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SESSIONAL PAPERS
VOLUME 18
FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH PARLIAMENT
OF THE
DOMINION OF CANADA
SESSION 1907-8
VOLUME XLII
]'5\ bo-^
7 Edw. Vn.
Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers.
A. 1908
also Numerical Iiist Page 5.
ALPHABETICAL INDEX
OF THE
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA
FOURTH SESSION, TENTH PARLIAMENT, 1907-8
A
Acetylene Gas Buoys 209
Adulteration of Food 1-t
Agriculture, Annual Report 15
Alaska Boundary 5i
Aluminum Exports and Imports. .13G, 136a
Applications for crossing railway
tracks.. .-. 8C
Archives, Canadian 18
.Astronomer, Chief, Report of 25a,
Athabasca Fish Co 225
Auditor General, Annual Report.. .. 1
B
Bait Freezer and Cold Storage 101
Banks, Chartered 6
Banks, Unpaid Balances in 7
Barbados, Trade Conference at 158
Bastedo, Samuel Tovel 139
Bate, n. N. & Co 199
Beauharnois Canal 83
Belleville Harbour -163
Bell Telephone Co 122
Bluuden, Frederick 165
Bonds and Securities 44
Boone Company 177
Bounties paid by Government 93
Bow River 202
Bridge Materials from U. S 194
British and Continental Ports 21c
British Canadian Loan and Invest-
ment Co 128
British Columbia : —
Chinese in Public Schools 74
Disallowance 84
Dominion Lands 46
Indian Reserves 169
Joly de I.otbiniere, Sir Henri.. .. 75
Metlakatla Indian Reserve 89
Natal Act 99
Patterson, J. W 906
Revenue and Expenditure 219
7461—1
B
British Columbia: —
Richard L. Drury 1G4
W. Maxwell Smith Ill
Brodeur, Hon. L. P., &c.. Travelling
Expenses 109, 109b
By-Elections, House of Commons.. .. 17()
C
Canada Year Book 66
(^anactan Manufacturers' Associa-
' tion ■ 234, 234a
Canadian Pacific Railway: —
Business with Interior Department. 45
Lands sold by 09
Liability for Taxation 203
Canadian Transportation 21c
Canal Statistics 20a
Cassels, Hon. Walter 182 to 182c
Cattle Embargo 187
Census, Agricultural 188
Census, North-west Provinces 17n
Central Experimental Farm 80, 112
Chartered Banks 6
Chinese and Japanese 74b to 74g
Civil Service : —
Examiners 31
Insurance 49
List 30
Report of Royal Commission .. .. 29o
Superannuations 51
Coal Lands 108 to 108h
Coal, Timber and Mining Lands. 88 to 88b6
Cold Storage and Bait Freezer.. .. 101
Cold Storage Report 15a
Colonial Conference, 1907 58, 109n
Colonization Lands 155 to 155rf
Commissions of Inquiry 182d
Congdon, F. T 55 to 55/
Convicts in Penitentiaries 179
Criminal Statistics 17
Customs Department Officers l.iSc
Edw. VII.
Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers.
A. 1908
D
Dairy and Cold Storage Report.. .. 15a
Delisle, Michel Simeon 210
Dividends Unpaid in Banks 7
Dolke.se Indians 197, 197a
Dominion Lands 90c
Dominion Police 67
Dredging Work.. 121 to 124c, Ul, Ula, 204
Drill Halls 193
Drysdale, Hon. Arthur 176
Dunne, M. C 81a
E
Eclipse Manufacturing Co 129
Edwards, W. C. & Co 199
Elections, House of Commons 17!>
Elections, Forms for 6t
Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act 137
Electric Light, Inspection of 13
Estimates 3 to ^a
Exchequer Court Rules 53
Excise Revenue 12
Expenditure by Government in X.S. 102
Experimental Farm-;.. .. 16
F
Fast Line of Steamers 100
Fertilizers, Analysis of 235
Fishermen, Bounty to 56 to 56b
Fire E.Ktinguishers 160, 160u
Fisheries Act, Violation of 168
Fisheries, Annual Report 22
Fisheries Treaty 215, 215a
Fishing Licenses 143
Forbes, F. F., Judge 85
Forestry, Report of Supt. of 25
France and Cannda, Commerce. .lOo, 10b
G
Garrison Artillery Companies 196
Gas, Inspection of 13
Gaudet, Victor, Report of 211
Geographic Board 21n
Geological Survey Report 26
Georgian Bay Ship Canal.. 19o, 178 to 178b
Government Ve-sels 148, 148a, 170
Governor General, Expenditure for
office of H6
Governor General's Warrants 50
Grain, Movements of 192
Grain Trade. Rcirort of Royal Com-
mission 59
Grand Trunk Pacific Town and Deve-
lopment Co 90c
G
Grand Trunk Railway:
Entrance into Toronto 63
Major's Hill Park Site 76
Sale of Liquors 61, 61a
Grazing Lands 155a
H
Harbour Commissioners 23
Heath Point 198
Hillsboro' Bridge 186
House of Commons: —
Changes in the Staff 149
Elections for 17b
Internal Economy 37, 37o
Returns presented 150
Hudson Bay, Railroad to 138
Huntingdon, Waterway in 161
I
Immigrants, Expenditure for 81j
Immigrants in Canad.\ 81d, 81g
Immigration Agents 81e, 81b
Immigration Agents in Ontario.. ..81b, 81/i
Immigration from the Orient and
India 36o
Imperial Conference, 1907 58, 109o
Indian Affairs, Annual Report 27
Indian Agent Yeomans 103
Indian Reserves 159
Industrial Disputes Inspection Act.. 131
Inland Revenue, -Vnuual Report.. .. 12
Insurance, Abstract 9
Insurance, Annual Report 8
Intercolonial Railway:—
Accident at Mulgrave 205b
Belfast and Murray Harbour.. .. 205i
Claims for Damages 205
Fences 205ff
Freight Rates 119, 205.i
Highway Crossings 39k. 39f
Locomotives 205rf, 205/
New .\ccounting System 2Q5h
Steel Rails 205e
Trains Breaking Down 205c
Various Expenditures 78
Winter and Summer Tariffs 127
Interior, Annual Report 25
Tntorii:>tionnl lii>«ndary 54a, 54b
International Waterways Commission.
19b. 19.-
J
.Japanese and Chinese 74b to 'iir
.Toly de Lotbini^re, Sir Henri 75
Justice, Annual Report.. ■ 3'
7 Edw. Vn.
Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers.
A. 1908
I.
Labour Department, Annual Report of 36
Lake, Major General, Memorandum of 228
Lands, Dominion 90c
La Societe Canadienu© 200
Library of Parliament, Annual Report 33
List of Shipping 21b
M
Madden, K«port of Justice 60
Mail Subsidies to Steamships 82
Manitoba Homestead Entnes 155b
Marconi Stations 183, 183a
Marine and Pisheries Department,
Bookkeeping in 142
Marine, Annual Report 21
Measures, Ius[>ection of 13
Meat and Food Inspection Act.. 91, 13-1, 134a
Members of Parliament appointed to
Offices 52, 2.30
Metlakatla and Songhees Indians.. 197b
Midland Towing and Wrecking Co... 123
Military Institutions, Prorisions for.. 104
Military Service, Appointments to the 94
Militia, Colonels in the 73
Militia Council, Annual Report.. .. 35
Militia Dress Regulations 4iu
Militia General Orders 4]
Miller, N. B 81
Mill Settlement, West 171
M. J. Wilson Cordage Co 113
Mines, Report of Department.. ..26 to 26b
Mining, Coal and Timber Lauds 88 to 88bb
Mint, Royal 7I
Moucton Car Works 107
Montcalm-Milwaukee Collision 221
Montreal E.^amining Warehouse. . . . 120
Montreal Turnpike Trust 126, 126a
Mounted Police 28
Mulgrave, Nova Scotia 205b
Mc
McDonald, A. G gj;
Mcllreith, R. T jgi^ igja
N
National Transcontinental Railway. 39 to 39ft
Engineering StaS 62a
Resignation of Mr. Hodgins 62
Routes in New Brunswick 180
Values of Tenders 62b
New Brunswick and Nova Scotia Mails 171c
Newspapers, Money paid to.. .. 174 to 174b
North Grove, Grenvilie I7ia
Nova Scotia, Expenditure by govern-
ment in 102
7461— IJ ' ;
o
Office Specialty Co 181
Opium Traffic 36b, 36c
Orders in Council 47
Oriental Labourers, Report of W. L.
M. King 74a, 7ih
Ottawa Improvement Commission.. .. 70
Ouimet, Judge J. A 65
P
Peace River Valley 106
Penitentiaries, Annual Report 34
Petit Rocher Breakwater 147, U7a
Peti-el, Steamer 2I8
Pevelan & Co 72
Piers or Docks in Ontario 92u
Police, Dominion 67
Police, Royal Northwest Mounted 28
Port Burwell Harbour 217
Port Maitlaud 92, 92a
Postal Charges 171;
Postal Service Delays.. 17le
Postmaster General, Annual Report. 24
Pound Net Licenses ].30
Power, Augustus, Report of 55
Prince Edward Island : —
Ale.\. McLeod 171ft
Archibald McDonald I7ld
Branch Railway Line- 190
Expenditure 2I6
Freight and Passenger Rates.. .. 205a
Freight on Winter Steamers.. .. 110
Leasing Properties 145
Lobster Fishery 231a
Mail Service lyjy
Mrs. Mary Finlay 171/,
Removal of Post Office 1713
Rights of Vessels 2O8
Terms of Union 139
Wharf at Little Sands 125
Winter Communication 212
Withdrawal of Winter Steamers.. llOn
Printing and Lithographing 220
Public .Accounts, Annual Report .... 2
Publications having Newspaper Rate. 195
Public Buildings 229, 232
Public Printing and Stationery .... 32
Public Works. Annua] Report 19
Q
Quebec Bridge: —
Report of Royal Commission.. .. 154
Reports and Orders in Council.. 154/i
Stock Subscribed 154b
Quebec, Founding of 207
Quebec Harbour 233
7 Edw. vn.
Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers.
A. 1908
K
Railway Commissioners, Eepoit of 20c
Eailway Crossings 39i, k and (, 115
Railways and Canals, Annual Report. 20
Railways not nnder Commissioners.. 39;
Railway Statistics 20b
Reductions and Remissions 95
Regiua Lands District 77
Robertson, E. Blake, Report of 81fc
Robins Irrigation Co 206
Ross Rifle Company 68 to 68d
Ross Rifle Hand-book 43
Royal Northwest Mounted Police.. .. 28
S
Sabouriu, Major 153
Samorici, A., and Boloean, II 11*6
Saskatchewan, Province of: —
Fishing Licenses 105, 151
Homestead Entries 90, 90a
Saskatchewan Act 185
Valley Land Co 90d
Savard, Doctor Edmond 222
Secretary of State, Annual Report. . 29
Seed Grain 25d
Seizures by Inland Revenue Depart-
ment 156 to 150b
Senate: —
Appointments to 52, 111
Bills sent from 121
Committee on Railways, &c 166
Debates 135
Senators appointed to office 230
Shareholders in Chartered Banks.. . fi
Shepley, Mr., K.C 17.';
Shipping, List of 21b
Six Nations Indians 197c
Sorel, Piers at 167
Spain, Commander, Expenses of 162
Standard Chemical Co 72
St. .Andrews Rapids 96
Steamboat Inspection 23o
Steamship Fa.st Line 100
Steamship Traffic 10c
Steel Concrete Co 172
St. Gabriel do Brandon 171/
St. Lawrence River, Damming of.. 140, 140a
Supplies for Department of Marine
and Fisheries 214
Supreme Court, N.S., Suit in 117
Sutherland Rifle Sight Co 226
T
Temperance Colonization Co 223
Timber, Application to cut 78
Timber, Coal and Mining Lands..88 to 88bb
Tobacco Industry 157, 1570
Tonnage at St. John and Halifax 227
Topographical Surveys, Report on 25b
Toronto Harbour 213
Trade and Commerce, Annual Report 10
Trade and Navigation, Annual Report 11
Trade Unions 43
Transcontinental Railway .39 to 39h
Transport on Government Account.. 224
Treaty between Great Britain and
United States 215, 215o
Treaty Powers 144
Trent Canal 133
U
Unclaimed Balances in Binks 7
Unforeseen Expenses 48
United States Warships 191
V
Valleyfield, Regiment in 153o
Volunteer Camps, Contracts for.. .. 118
W
Waugh, James S 81e
Weights, Measures, &c 13
Wilberforce, Dam at 132
Windsor, Detroit and Belle Isle Ferry
Co 98
T
Yukon: —
Criminal Conspiracy 97
Estates of Deoeatsed Persons.. .. 55b
Finuie, O. S 152
Lands at Whitehorse 55e
Lord's Day Act 57
Mining Regulations 201
Morality of the Yukon 55d
Ordinances 40
Placer Claims 173, 173o
Report of Commissioner 25c
Report of Mr. Beddoe 55/i
Rev. John Pringle 55c, 55/
Right to divert water 87
W. H. P. Clement 55i
W. W. B. Mclnnes 55ff
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
See also Alphabetical Index, page I.
LIST OF SESSIONAL PAPERS
Arranged in Numerical Order, with their titles at full length; the dates when Ordered
and when Presented to the Houses of Parliament; the Name of the Senator or
Member who moved for each Sessional Paper, and whether it is ordered to he
Printed or Not Printed.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 1.
(This Tolume is bound in two parts.)
1. Report of the Auditor General for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Partial report
presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding; also 2nd December and 17th
December Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 2.
2. Public Accounts of Canada, for the fiscal period of nine months ended 31st March, 1907.
Presented 28th November, 1907. by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
3. Estimates of the sums required for the services of Canada for the year ending 31st March,
190!;. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
3u. Further Supplementary Estimates for the year ending 31st March, 1909. Presented 9th
July, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding. . .Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
4. Supplementary Estimates for the twelve months ending 31st March, 1908. Presented
3rd February, 190S, by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Printed for both distributioii and sessional papers.
4a. Supplementary Estimates for the year ended 31st March, 1908. Presented 16th March,
1908, by Hon. W. 8. Fielding Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
5. (No issue.)
6. List of Shareholders in the Chartered Banks of Canada, as on the 31st December, 1907.
Presented 8th May, 1908, by Hon. S. A . Fisher.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 3.
7. Report of dividends remaining unpaid, unclaimed balances and unpaid drafts and bills
of exchange in Chartered Banks of Canada, for five years and upwards, prior to 31st
December, 1907. Presented 29th June, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 4.
8. Report of the Superintendent of Insurance for the year ended 31st December, 1907.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
9. Abstract of Statements of Insurance Companies in Canada, for the year ended 31st Decem-
ber, 1907. Presented Uth May, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Printed for both distribution and sessiorial papers.
6
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 5.
10. Report of the Department of Trade and Commerce, for the fiscal rear (nine months)
ended 3Ist March, 1907. Part I.— Canadian Trade. Presented 29th November, 1907, by
Hon. W. S. Fielding. Part II.— Trade of Foreign Countries and Treaties and Conven-
tions. Presented 11th March, by Hon. W. Paterson.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLTJME 6.
lOa. Convention respecting the Commercial Relations between France and Canada, entered
into at Paris on the 19th day of September, 1907, between His Majesty and the President
of the French Republic. Presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
10b. Correspondence and memoranda in connection with the Convention of 1907, respecting
the commercial relations between France and Canada. Presented 9th January. 1908, by
Hon. W. S. Fielding Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
lOc. Supplement to Report of Department of Trade and Commerce, with statistics showing
steamship traffic, 4c. Presented 17th March, 190S, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
11. Tables of the Trade and Navigation of Canada, for the nine months of the fiscal year
ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 2nd December, 1907, by Hon. W. Paterson.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLTJME 7.
12. Inland Revenues of Canada. Excise, &c., for tie nine months ended 31st March, 1907.
Presented 28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. Templeraan.
Printed for both distribution and ses.'^ional papers.
13. Inspection of Weights, Measures, Gas and Electric Light, for the nine months ended
31st March, 1907. Presented 28th November. 1907, by Hon. W. Templeman.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
14. Report on Adulteration of Food, for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Presented
28th November, 1907, by Hon. W. Templeman.
Printed for both distribution and sesstonnl papers.
15. Report of the Minister of Agriculture, for the year ended 31st March. 1907. Presented
2nd December, 1907, by Hon. S. A. Fisher.
Printed for both dislribiition and sessional papers.
ISa. Beport of the Dairy and Cold Storage Commissioner for the year ending 31st March,
1907. Presented 10th February, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 8.
16. Report of the Directors and Officers of the Experimental Farms for 1906 Presented
10th January, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
17. Criminal Statistics for the year ended 30th September. 1907.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
17a. Census of Population and .Agriculture of the Northwe«t Provinces: Manitoba, Saskat-
chewan and Alberta, 1906. Presented 18th February, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher.
See 17a. 1907.
17h. Return of By-Elections for the flouse of Commons of Canada, held during the year
1907. Presented 6th March, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
18. Canadiair Archives. Sec No. 15, page Ir.
6
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTIME 9.
19. Report of the Minister of Public Works, for the fiscal period ended 31st March, 1907.
Presented 2nd December. 1907, by Hon. W. Pugsley.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
19a. Georgian Bay Ship Canal Survey. Report on the Precise Levelling; from 1904 to 1907.
Published by the Department of Public Works.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
19b. Progress Report of the International Waterways Commission. Supplementary Report
to 31st December, 1907. Presented 5th June, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
19c. Supplementary Report of the International Waterways Commission, 1908.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
20. Report of the Department of Railways and Canals, for the fiscal period from 1st July,
1906, to 31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November. 1907, by Hon. G. P. Graham.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 10.
20a. Canal Statistics for the season of navigation, 1906.
Printed for both distribution and ses;ional papers.
20b. Railway Statistics of Canada for the year ended 301h June, 1907. Presented 16th
January, 1908, by Hon. G. P. Graham. Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
20c. Second Report of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, 1st April, 1906, to
, 31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. G. P. Graham.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
21. Report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries (Marine) for 1907. Presented 18th
December, 1907, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
21a. Seventh Report of the Geographic Board of Canada, 1907-8.
Printed for both distribution and se.ssional papers.
21b. List of Shipping issued by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, being a list of
vessels on the registry books of Canada, on the 31st December, 1907. Presented 24th
June, 1908, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur. ..Printfd for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 11.
21c. Report on British and Continental Ports, with a view to the development of the port
of Montreal and Canadian transportation.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
22. Report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries (Fisheries) for 1907. Presented 18th
December, 1907, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
23. Report of the Harbour Commissioners. &c.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
23o. Report of the Chairman of the Board of Steamboat Inspection, 1907. Presented 27th
February, 1908, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 12.
24. Report of the Postmaster General, for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Presented
3rd December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
25. Report of the Department of the Interior, for the fiscal period from 1st July, 1906, to
31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. F. Oliver.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
7
7 Edw. YU. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTIME 13.
25a. (1906) Eeport of the Chief Astronomer for the year ended 30th June, 1903. Presented 17th
December, 1907, by Hon. F. Oliyer... Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
25(1. (1907) Report of the Chief Astronomer for the nine months ending 31st March, 1907.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
25b. Annual Report of the Topographical Surveys Branch (Department of the Interior)
1906-7. Presented 8th June, 1908, by Hon. F. Oliver.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
25c. Report of the Commissioner of the Yulvon Territory, for the year ended 31st March,
^998 Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
2Sd. Correspondence and papers relating to Seed Grain in Saskatchewan and Alberta.
Presented 18th July, 1908, by Hon. F. Oliver.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
26. Summary Report of the Department of Mines (Geological Survey), for the calendar ye,".r
1907. Presented 16th January, 1908, by Hon. W. Templeman.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
26o. Summary Report of the Mines Branch of the Department of Mines, for the fiscal year
1907-8. Presented 17th July, 1908, by Hon. W. Templeman.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papen.
26b. Annual Eeport on the Mineral Production in Canada, during the calendar year 1906.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 14.
27. Report of the Department of Indian .-Vftairs, for the year ended 31st March, 1907. Pre-
sented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. F. Oliver.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
28. Report of the Rojal Northwest Mounted Police, 1907. Presented 29th January, 1908. by
Sir Wilfrid Laurier Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
29. Report of the Secretary of State of Canada, for the year 1907.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 15.
29a. Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, with appendices and evidence
taken before the Commissioners. Presented 26th March, 1908, by Hon. W. S. Fielding i
also Analytical Index of evidence and memorials.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 16.
29a. Report of the Royal Commit, sion on tlie Ci\il Strvice — Continued.
30. Civil Service List of Canada, 1907. Presented 3rd December, 1907. by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17.
31. Report of the Board of Civil Service E.xaminers. for the year ended Slst December, 1907.
Presented 8th May, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
32. Annual I{<<|)ort of the Department of Public Printing and Stationery, 1907. Pesontcd 11th
May, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
33. Report of the Joint Librarians of Parliament for the year 1907. Presented 2Sth Novem-
ber. 1907, by the Hon. the Speaker Printed for sessional papers.
8
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Continued.
34. Report of the Minister of Justice as to Tenitentiaries of Canada, for the nine months
ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 4th December, 1907, by Hon. J. Bureau.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
35. Annual Report of the Militia Council of Canada, 1907. (Interim Report presented 6th
Riarch, 1908.) Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
36. Report of the Department of Labour, for the nine months ended 31st March, 1907. Pre-
sented 18th December, 1907, by Sir TiVilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
36(1. Report of W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, on his mission
to England to confer with the British authorities on the subject of immigration to
Canada from the Orient, and immigration from India, in particular
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
366. Report by W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, on the need for
the suppression of the opium traffic in Canada. Presented 3rd July, 1908, by Hon. R.
Lemieux Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
36c. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 16th July, for all correspondence, reports,
memorials and protests forwarded to the Government in connection with the opium
trade in Canada, whether asking for the suppression of said trade or otherwise. Pre-
sented 18th July, 1908. — Hon. Sir Mackenzie Bowell Not printed.
37. Minutes of proceedings of the Board of Internal Economy of the House of Commons,
pursuant to Rule of the House, number 9. Presented 2nd December, 1907, by the Hon.
The Speaker .' Not printed.
37a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908. Minutes of
proceedings of the Board of Internal Economy of the House of Commons from 1st
January, 1902, to 1st January, 1906. Presented 6th March, 1908.— 3fr. Roche (Marquette).
Not printed.
38. A copy of the new rules of the Supreme Court of Canada, promulgated on the 19th day of
June, 1907. Presented 28th November, 1907, by the Hon. The Speaker Not printed.
38a. Rules and orders of the Supreme Court of Judicature for Ontario, passed on the 27th
March, 1908, under the power conferred by the Criminal Code. Presented 12th May,
1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth Not printed.
39. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th July, 1908, showing the length
of the National Transcontinental Railway from Moncton, New Brunswick, to Prince
Rupert, in the province of British Columbia, and the estimated cost of the same.
Presented 6th July, 1908.— Hon. G. P. Graham Not printed.
39a. Report of the Commissioners of the Transcontinental Railway for the fiscal period
ending 31st March, 1907. Presented 29th November, 1907, by Hon. G. P. Graham.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
39b. Supplementary return to an order of the House of Commons, dated l2th December,
1907, showing: 1. The estimated quantities used by the Transcontinental Railway Com-
mis.'iion for arriving at the moneyed values of the tenders for the construction of the
50 miles, more or less, from Moncton westerly; for the construction of 62 miles, more
or less, from Grand Falls westerly; from the south side of the St. Lawrence river,
easterly 150 miles; for the 45 miles more or less westerly from near La Tuque; and
for the 150 miles easterly from near Abitibi, known as the Abitibi section. 2. The
various prices which each tenderer placed opposite the several items in the schedule or
form of tender. 3. The total number so ascertained of each tender. Presented 24th
January, 1908. —Mr. Schell (Glengarry) Not printed.
39c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 8th January, 1908, for a copy of
all tenders received up to date (30th November, 1907) by, and now under contract to,
the commission appointed for the construction of that portion of the line of the
9
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1903
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Contmued.
Transcontinental Railway between the city of Winnipeg, in the province of Manitoba,
and the city of Moncton, in the province of New Brunswick; that such copy or
return shall contain (1) signatures attached to the tenders; (2) the total amount of
each tender as "moneyed out" by the said commission; (3) the quantity of each class
or kind of material as used by the said commission in figuring out the cost; (4) the
price per unit of prices submitted by those who responded to the invitation for
tenders ; and (5) the total cost of each item in the schedule, which, added together,
gives the grand total cost of each undertaking tendered for. Presented 24th January,
1908.— Mr. Taylor Not printed.
39d. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29tli January, 190S, showing to
whom, and when, the National Transcontinental Railway Commission awarded contracts
for the transportation of supplies, on District E, between the following points, namely :—
(a)Grassett to Cache 9, (b)Montizambert to New Cache 9 A, on Negogami river; (c) Jack-
fish to Caches 10, 11 A, and 12 ((i)Nipigon to Caches 12 A, 13, 14, 15, Orababika and
Wabinosh warehouses and Cache 16, on District F; the distances in each contract, the
contract rate and terms; the amounts that have been paid to date on each contract;
who erected the cache and dwelling house at the line crossing on Kebinakagami river;
also the new buildings at line crossing of Negogami river, and the warehouses at
Jackfish ; the cost of these buildings, respectively; and if tenders were invited for
above transportation and building contracts. Presented 6th February, 1908. — Mr. Boyce.
Not printed.
89e. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of
the clauses and conditions, regulations and specifications contained in the contracts, in
virtue of which the National Transcontinental Railway is being built, and that are
for the purpose of safeguarding, securing and guaranteeing the suppliers of the con-
tractors, to whom the work of construction has been accorded, tht payment of thei*
claims against the said contractors; likewise a list of the contracts signed, up to the
present, in which appear the said clauses guaranteeing or securing the said suppliers
the payment of their said bills or claims. Presented 13th February, 1908.— Ifr. Morin.
Not printed.
39/. Return (in part) to an Address of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a
copy of all orders in council, reports, surveys, contracts, tenders, agreements, books,
memoranda, documents, and papers of every kind, showing, relating to, or concerning
the length of the National Transcontinental Railway from (a) Winnipeg to Quebec,
(b)Quebec to Moncton, and the estimated or probable average cost per mile of the same,
and all other information relating to the total cost or the cost per mile of the said
railway. Presented 21st April, 1908.— Mr. Borden (Carhton) Not printed.
39g. Letters from the chairman of the Board of Commissioners of the Transcontinental
Railway, the chief engineer and others, in connection with certain allegations made by
Major A. E. Hodgins, late district engineer of Section F, Transcontinental Railway.
Presented 24th A])ril, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed.
S9/t. Copy of the commission appointing Lucien Pacaud. Esquire, of the city of Quebec, as
police magistrate, to carry out the law against the sale of into.xicating liquors within
certain limits, along the line of the eastern extension of the Transcontinental Railway.
Presented 8th May, 1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth Not printed.
39i. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 1st April, 1908, based on the records in the
offices of the Railway Commission, showing the total number of persons killed or
injured by being struck by engines or trains on liighway crossings, said return to show
the number of persons so killed or injured on the lines of each railway company
separately for the years ending 31st March, 1905, 1906 and 1907, such return to include
all persons killed or injured as above described irrespective of any contention of the
railway companies or opinion of the officers of the Railway Commission as to the legal
rights of the said persons to use the highway crossing at the time of the accidents.
Presented 12th Miy, 1908.— i7on. Mr. McKay (Truro} Nol printed.
10
1 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOIUME \1— Continued.
39j. Eeturn to an order of the Senate, dated 9tli April, 1908, giving a list of all railways in
Canada which are not under the control or jurisdiction of the Board of Railway Com-
missioners; and stating in each case the reason why the railway is not controlled by
the commission. Presented 12th May, 1908.— ffon. Mt. McKay (Truro) -Vof printed.
39k. Return (in part) to an order of the Senate, dated 27th March, 1908, showing, separately,
the highway crossings at rail level on all railways, except railways under construction,
within the jurisdiction of the Railway Commission in respect of which highway cross-
ings, protection has been ordered by the board since its organization, said return to
give the character of the protection ordered in each case, the name of the railway com-
pany, the local designation of each highway crossing, and the county and province in
which it is situated, and the date of the order and regulation in respect thereof; also
a similar return giving the highway crossings ordered to be protected by the proper
authority in each case on all railways not under the control of the board, including
the Intercolonial Railway, and including orders made regarding railways under con-
struction; also a similar return respecting all highway crossings, wliich had orders and
regulations in respect to them in force, on the 1st day of February, 1901. Presented
18th July, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Ferguson Not printed.
391. Supplementary Return to No. 39fc. Presented 4th June, 1908 Xot printed.
40. Ordinances of the Tukon Territory passed by the Yukon Council in the year 1907. Pre-
sented 3rd December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Xot printed.
41. General Orders issued to the militia between 2nd November, 1906, and 1st November,
1907. Presented 9th December. 1907, by Sir Frederick Borden Not printed.
41a. Dress Regulations for the Canadian militia, 1907. Presented 9th December, 1907, by
Sir Frederick Borden Not printed.
42. Ross Eifle Hand-book, 1907. Presented 9th December, 1907, by Sir Frederick Borden.
Not printed.
43. Return under chapter 125 (R.S.C.), 1906, intituled: "An Act respecting Trades Unions,"
submitted to Parliament in accordance with section 33 of the said Act. Presented 9th
December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed.
44. A detailed statement of all bonds or securities registered in the Department of the
Secretary of State of Canada, since last return, 4th December, 1906, submitted to tho
Parliament of Canada under section 32, chapter 19, of the Revised Statutes of Canada,
1906. Presented 9th December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed.
45. Return (in so far as the Department of the Interior is concerned) of copies of all orders
in council, plans, papers, and correspondence which are required to be presented to the
House of Commons, under a resolution passed on 20th February, 1882, since the date of
the last return, under such resolution. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. F.
Oliver Not printed.
46. Return of orders in council which have been published in the Canada Gazette and in
the British Columbia Gazette, between 1st December, 1906, and 1st December, 1907, in
accordance with provisions of subsection (d) of section 3S of the regulations for the
survey, administration, disposal and management of Dominion lands within the 40-
mile railway belt in the province of British Columbia. Presented 11th December, 1907,
by Hon. F. Oliver Not printed.
47. Return of orders in council which have been published in the Canada Gazette between
1st December, 1906, and 1st December, 1907, in accordance with the provisions of
section 8 of chapter 55 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1906. Presented 11th December,
1907, by Hon. F. Oliver Not printed.
48. Statement of expenditure on account of miscellaneous unforeseen expenses from the 1st
April. 1907, to the 28th November, 1907, in accordance with the Appropriation Act of
1907. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding.. . . . ..Not printed.
11
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOITJME 17— Continued.
49. Statement in pursuance of section 17 of the Civil Service Insurance Act, for the nine
months ending 31st March, 1907. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S.
Fielding Not printed.
50. Statement of Governor General's Warrants issued since the last session of parliament, on
account of the fiscal year 1907-8. Presented 11th December, 1907, by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Not printed.
51. Statement of superannuations and retiring allowances in the civil service during the
year ended 31st December, 1907, showing name, rank, salary, service, allowance and
cause of retirement of each person superannuated or retired, also whether vacancy
filled by promotion or by new appointment, and salary of any new appointee. Pre-
sented 11th December, 1907. by Hon. W. S. Fielding lYof printed.
52. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing:
1. The names (a) of members of parliament and (b) ex-members of parliament who
have been appointed to the Senate by the present administration, distinguishing
between classes (a) and (6), giving the date of retirement in class (b) and date of
appointment in all cases. 2. The names of members of parliament and of ex-members
of parliament appointed to offices of emolument under the Crown by the present
administration, distinguishing between the two classes and giving dates as in paragraph
one mentioned. 3. The names of senators and ex-senators appointed to offices of emolu-
ment under the Crown by the present administration, distinguishing between the two
classes and giving dates as in paragraph one mentioned. Presented 12th December,
1907. — Mr. Lennox Not printed.
53. Exchequer Court rules (amended), general order of the 12th September, 1907. Presented
12th December, 1907, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed.
54. Copy of articles of convention of the 21st August, 1906, between the United States and
Great Britain, as to the demarcation of the boundary line between .Maska in the
United States and the British possessions-in North America. Presented 16th December,
1907, by Hon F. Oliver Printed for sessional papers.
54a. Copy of a treaty between Great Britain and the United States providing for the more
complete definition and demarcation of the international boundary between the Domi-
nion of Canada and the United States, signed at Washington on 11th April, 1908.
Presented 19th May, 190S, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both dixtribuiion and sessional papers.
54b. Correspondence, orders in council and despatches in connection with the negotiation of
ft treaty between Great Britain and the United States for the definition ami demarcation
of the international boundary between Canada and the United States. Presented 4th
June, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier... Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
55. Report of the investigation held last winter by .Augustus Power, K.C., of the Justice
Department, in respect of Mr. F. T. Congdon. Presented 16th December, 1907, by Hon.
F. Oliver Not printed.
55a. (1) Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January. 190S, showing all
correspondence, petitions, statements, reports and papers having any relation to the
claim of Mrs. Louise F. Wiley, and her infant daughter, concerning certain mining
ulaims held by her husband in the Yukon, and which on his death nitliout will are
allowed to have gone into the possession or trusteeship of Frederick Tennyson Congdon,
then public administrator in the Yukon, under appointment of the Dominion govern-
ment, and all correspondence, reports, and papers, bearing upon Mr. Congdon's exa-
mination, defence and connection thorewilh. Presented 2lth February, 1908.— .Wr. Foster.
Not printed.
S5a. (2) Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, for a
copy of all orders in council, correspondence, reports, memoranda, evidence and other
docnments and papers of every de.scription relating to the estate of the late Orren
12
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Continued.
Leonard Wiley, or to the claim of Louise F. Wiley, or of her infant daughter, against
the government or against Frederick T. Congdon as public administrator of the Yukon
Territory, or otherwise as an official of the government, or to any charges against the
(nid Frederick T. Congdon as public administrator or otherwise as an official or
employee of this government; excluding therefrom, however, any papers relating to the
subjects which may be included in return ordered on the 13th instant, on motion of the
honourable member for North Toronto. Presented 24th February, 190S. — Mr. Foster.
Not printed.
53f). Upturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy
of all orders in council, correspondence, evidence, memoranda and other documents
and papers of every description, relating to or touching the conduct of all persons who
have acted as public administrator in the Yukon Territory, or who have had charge
or control by reason of their official position, of the estate of deceased persons in the
Yukon Territory. And a copy of all such documents and papers aforesaid as set forth
and describe the action, if any, of the government in respect of any claims, charges or
proposed proceedings against any such official in respect of his duties, acts or dealings
as public administrator. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Lennox Not printed.
55c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of
all telegrams, affidavits, papers sent by and all correspondence had with Rev. John
Pringle, presently of the Yukon, in connection with the condition of public matters
therein and with public officials thereof, and especially in reference to one Frederick
Tennyson Congdon, at one time commissioner of the Yukon, and one Gironard, registrar,
and one Lithgow, controller and member of the Yukon Council and in particular letters
sent by Rev. John Pringle, on or about January, 1902, and in or about January, 1905,
and on or about 31st July, 1907, to the premier of Canada, and other ministers, detailing
the condition of public matters in the Yukon and the replies thereto. Also showing
what action, if any, was taken by the government in relation to the matters dealt
with therein and the reports of any commissioner appointed to investigate the charges
or any part of them. Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Foster Not printed.
55d. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908 for a copy of
all correspondence relating to the morality of the Yukon. Presented 11th March, 1908.—
Mr. Thompson Not printed.
55c. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, showing the
parties to -whom were made the original grants from the Crown of the lands comprised
within the limits of the town of Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, and any assignments
made thereof, with names of parties, dates, and consideration therefor. J'resented
Ifith March, 1908.— Mr. Foster ^ Not printed^.
55/. Supplementary return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908,
for a copy of all telegrams, affidavits, papers sent /by and all correspondence had with
Reverend John Pringle, presently of the Yukon, in connection with the condition of
public matters therein and with public oflBcials thereof, and especially in reference to
one Frederick Tennyson Congdon, at one time commissioner of the Yukon, and onn
Girouard, registrar, and one Lithgow, controller and member of the Yukon Council;
and in particular letters sent by Reverend John Pringle, on or about January, 1902,
and in or about January, 1905, and on or about 31st July, 1907, to the Premier of
Canada and other ministers, detailing the condition of public matters in the Yukon
and the replies thereto; also showing what action, if any, was taken by the government
in relation to the matters dealt with therein and the reports of any commissioner
appointed to investigate the charges or any part of them. Presented 7th April, 1908. —
Mr. Foster ..Not printed.
13
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17— Concluded.
55g. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th February, 1907, for a copy of
all letters, memorials, telegrams, petitions, resolutions and other communications,
documents and papers from any person or persons in the Yukon to the Prime Minister
or to the government, or any member or official of the government, respecting the
official acts or conduct of Mr. W. W. B. Mclnnes as commissioner of the Yukon;
including any petition asking for the removal of Mr. Mclunes from his position as
commissioner. Presented 7th April, 190S — Mr. Whitr Not printed.
55/i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of
Che report made by Mr. Beddoe upon the condition of the books, accounts, &c., of the
financial administration of the Yukon, and especially with reference to the condition
in the public administrator's office. Presented 21st April, 1908.— Mr Foster.
Not printed.
55i. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy of
all orders in council, reports, correspondence, documents, and papers relating to the
appointment of Mr. W. H. P. Clement as legal adviser to the council of the Yukon Ter-
ritory, or as public administrator in the Yukon Territory, or to any other office of
emolument in the Yukon Territory, or relating to the resignation of the said W. H. P.
Clement from any such office, or relating to the circumstances under which and reasons
for which the said W. H. P. Clement ceased to act as such legal adviser, public admin-
istrator or in any other such capacity. Presented 7th May, 1908. — Mr. Sproule.
Not printed.
56. Statement of expenditure as to bounty to deep-sea fishermen, for the year 1906-7. Pre-
sented 18th December, 1907, by Hon. L. P. Brodeur Not printed.
56a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing the
names and residences of all fishermen in the county of Cape Breton to whom fishing
bounties were paid between 31st December, 1905, and 1st January, 1908, together with a
statement of the amount paid to each person, the date on which it was paid, and the
name of the officer or person by whom the sum was paid. Presented 11th February,
1908.— i\/r. Borden (CarletonJ Not printed.
S6b. Supplementary return to No. 56a. Presented 13th July, 1908 Not printed.
57. Correspondence and instructions with regard to the Lord's Day Act in its application to
the Yukon Territory. Presented 18th December, 1907, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth.
Not printed.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18.
58. Minutes of Proceedings of the Colonial Conference held at the Colonial Office, Downing
Street, London, from the 15th April to the 14th May, 1907. Presented 22nd May, 1908.
/ by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
59. Report of the Royal Commission on the Grain Trade of Canada. Presented 8th January,
1908, by Hon. F. Oliver Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
60. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, for a copy of
the report of the Honourable Justice James Henry Madden, appointed by order in
council, 15th May, 1907, to investigate and report upon the matter of arrears for rentals
on certain leases at Dunnville, Welland Canal feeder. Presented 9th January, 1908.-
Mr. Lalor Not printed.
61. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated Uth December, 1907, for a copy oi"
all correspondence, petitions, statements, papers, orders in council, and proclamations
respecting the setting out of limits for prohibition of the sale of liquors along the line
of the Grand Trunk Pacific under the Public Works Construction Acti. Presented 9th
January. 1908.-.Wr. Foster Not printed.
61a. Supplementary return to No. 61. Presented 27th January, 1908 Not printed.
14
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued.
62. Return to an order of the Hous-3 of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all 'orrespondence, dociin\ents, papers, memoranda, and reports, relating to the retire-
ment, resignation,, or dismissal of Mr. Hodgins, C.E., from the service of the National
Transcontinental Railway Commission, and the grounds or reasons therefor. Pre-
sented 9th January, 1908.— Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed.
62a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing what
changes, if any, have been made in the National Transcontinental Railway Commis-
sion's engineering stafi during the current calendar year. Presented 9th January,
1908.— Mr. Macdonell Xot printed.
62b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, showing :
1. The estimated quantities used by the Transcontinental Railway Commission for
arriving at the moneyed values of the tenders for the construction of the 50 miles, more
or less, from Moncton westerly; for the construction of 62 miles, more or less, from
Grand Falls westerly; from the south side of the St. Lawrence river, easterly 150
miles; for the 45 miles more or less westerly from near La Tuque; and for the 150
miles easterly from near Abitibi, known as the Abitibi section. 2. The various prices
which each tenderer placed opposite the several items in the schedule or form of tender.
3. The total amount so ascertained of each tender. Presented 9th January, 1908. —
Mr. Schcll (Glengarry). See also 39b Not printed.
63. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all orders in council, correspondence, reports, opinions of the Department of Justice,
memoranda, papers and documents; also of all plans or route maps relating to the
proposed new eastern entrance of the Grand Trunk Railway Company into the city of
Toronto. Presented 9th January, 1908. — Mr. Macdonell Not printed.
64. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all writs, forms and instructions issued and used in and for the purposes of the several
elections for Dominion constituencies in the year 1907. Presented 9th January, 1908.—
Mr. Barker Not printed.
65. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
the order in council appointing Honourable J. A. Ouimet as judge of the Court of the
King's Bench, as well as a copy of all correspondence, reports, medical certificates and
order in council concerning his being pensioned. Presented 9th January, 1908. —
Mr. Lanctol (Laprairie-Napieriille) Not printed.
66. The Canada Year Book, 1906. Presented 10th January, 1908, by Hon. S. A. Fisher.
Printed separately.
67. Report of the Commissioner, Dominion Police Force, for the year 1907. Presented 13th
January, 1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth Not printed.
68. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1007, showing :
1. The number of officials of the government, civil or military, or officers of the active
militia who perform . services in any way connected with the manufacture of rifles for
the government by the Ross Rifle Company. 2. Their names, ranks, and duties, and
the amount of their individual salary or remuneration. 3. The total amount, (apart
from contract cost of rifle), or expenditure by the government with the Ross Rifle
Company, including any bonus, loans, inspections, cost of testing, commissions, or
expenditure of any kind, with the individual amounts. Presented 16th January, 1908.—
Mr. Morthington Not printed.
68(1. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing
reports of commissions, boards of inquiry, inspections, reports of industrial officers, to
tlip government or any member thereof, including reports from the comptroller, com-
missioner, or any officer, or member of the Northwest Mounted Police, the Dominion
Rifle Association, or any member thereof, or any rifle association or club, or any
15
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 1&— Continued.
member thereof, or to the commandant, or any member of the Bisley team, regarding
the efficiency of the Eoss rifle, to date. Presented 9th April, 1908. — Mr. Wcrthington.
Not printed.
68b. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 190S, for a copy of all
correspondence between the government or any department thereof, and the Eoss Eifle
Company, or any representative thereof, or between the government and any bank or
other institution which has made advances under the contract between the government
and the said company, or any representative of such bank or institution, relating to the
accounts and financial or other affairs of the Eoss Eifle Company, including any letters
or correspondence from any oflficial of the Bank of Montreal to the Auaitor General.
Presented 9th April, 1908. — Mr. Worthington Not printed.
68c. Keturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 18th March, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, reports, communications and other papers and documents of every
kind and description not already brought down, relative to the rifle known as the Eoss
rifle, or to the contract between the government and any person or corporation with
respect to the said rifle, or to the value or efficiency thereof, or to any alleged defects
therein; also a copy of all letters, telegrams, despatches, reports, and other communi-
cations of every kind from the British government or any member or official tliereof,
or from the War Office, or Secretary of State for War, or any officer or official or
person employed by or in the service of the British government, to the Governor
General of Canada, or to the government of Canada, or to the Minister of Militia, or
to any officer or official or person in the public service of Canada, relative to the said
rifle, or to the value or efficiency of the said rifle or any defects therein, or any matter
or thing connected therewith. Presented 9th April, 1908. — Mr. Worlhington.
Not printed
68d. Eeturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all contracts between the Eoss Eifle Company and the government, or the Department
of Militia, for the supply of rifles, ammunition and other articles, and all orders in
council, correspondence, reports .documents and papers, relating to such contracts,
and the subject-matter thereof, and to the operations of the company, and tc its dealings
with the government, or any of the departments, including the Department of Customs,
and the Bank of Montreal, or any banking institutions. Presented 9th April, 1908. —
Mr. Worlhington Not printed.
69. Eeturn of lands sold by tlie Canadian Pacific Railway Company, from the 1st October,
1906, to the 1st October. 1907. Presented 13th January, 1908. by Hon. F. Oliver.
Not printed.
70. Report of the Ottawa Improvement Commission for the nine months ended the 31st
March, 1907. Presented 13th January, 1908. by Hon. W. S. Fielding.
Printed for sessional papers.
71. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907. showing :
1. Uow much money has been e.\pended to date on the Eoyal Mint, for construction
and equipment, respectively. 2. The sums required to complete on both accounts.
3. The officers and employees, and at what yearly salaries, are required to man the
institution, i. The face value of copper and silver and gold coinage obtained by the
government per year for the last ten years, and what it has cost the government
therefor. 5. The total profit on coinage in the ten years. 6. The amount of coinage it
is in contemplation to issue in 1908. ami in what denominations. 7. Who is to make
the purchases and fi.\ the price of bullion necessary for the use of the Jlint. 8. Upon
what system the officers and employees of the Mint are appointed, promoted and dis-
missed. Presented 13t)i Janiinry, 1908.— .1/r. Foster Not printed.
16
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18 — Continued.
72. Supplementary return to an address of the House of Commons, dated lOlh December,
1906, for a copy of all orders in council, correspondence, and all other papers, relating
to the Standard Chemical Company (Limited), or Pevelan & Co., in its dealings with
the Customs and Inland Revenue Departments from the date of the incorporation of
the said company to the present date. Presented 16th January, 1908.— Mr. Robitaille.
Not printed.
73. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907 showing:
1. -AH promotions that have been made to the rank of colonel in the active mibtia
during the past year, with names. 2. The nature of service, merit or seniority justi-
fying such promotions. 3. The record of war services of such officers. 4. Previous to
the gazetting of such promotion the positions held by such officers on the seniority list
of the colonels. 5. The number of lieut.-colonels who were outranked or superseded by
such promotions, with their names and services. Presented 17th January, 1908.—
Mr. Worthington Not printed.
74. Eeturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy
of all orders in council, correspondence, documents and papers relating to Chinese
seeking admission to the public schools of British Columbia as students, and relating
to the remission of head-tax on such persons Presented 20th January 1908. —
Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed.
74o. Report of W. L. Mackenzie King, commissioner to inquire into the methods by which
oriental labourers (Japanese) have been induced to come to Canada. Presented 20th
January, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieus Not printed.
74b. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, for a copy
of all correspondence between the Government of Canada and the Imperial authorities,
and a copy of all correspondence between the Government of Canada, and any person or
persons, and of all reports communicated to the Government in respect to the Anglo-
Japanese convention regarding Canada. Presented 21st January, 1908.— ilr. Borden
(Carleton) Printed for sessional papers.
74c. Supplementary return to No. 74b. Presented 21st January.
Printed for sessional papers.
74rf. Supplementary return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 18(h December,
1907, for a copy of all orders in council, correspondence, documents and papers, during
the iJast ten years, relating to the immigration of Chinese and Japanese into Canada.
Presented 24th Februaiy, 1908. — Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed.
74c. Eeturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, for a copy
of all orders in council, correspondence, documents and papers, during the present year,
relating to the immigration of Japanese into Canada. Presented 9th March, 1908. — Mr.
Borden (Carleton) Notprinted.
74/. Report of W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy ilinister of Labour, commissioner
appointed to investigate into the losses sustained by the Chinese population of Van-
couver, in the province of British Columbia, on the occasion of the riot in that city in
September, 1907. Presented 30th June, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
74g. Report by W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, commissioner
appointed to enquire into the losses and damages sustained by the Japanese population
in the city of Vancouver, in the province of British Columbia, on the occasion of riots
in that city in September, 1907. Presented 30th June, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
74h. Report of W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., commissioner appointed to enquire into
methods by which Oriental labourers (Hindoo and Chinese) have been induced to come
to Canada. Presented 13th July, 1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux Notprinted.
17
7461—2
7 Edw. Vii. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued.
75. Return to address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all correspondence, instructions or commnnications sent by the Government of Canada,
through the Secretary of State or otherwise, to Sir Henri Joly de Lotbiniere, as Lieu-
tenant Gorernor of British Columbia, during the years 1905 ajid 1906, respectively.
Presented 21st January, 190S.— ifr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed.
76. Copy of an order in council regarding sale of a portion of Major's HiU Park, Ottawa, to
the Grand Trunk Railway Company as a site for a hotel. Presented 21st January, 1908,
by Hon. W. Pugsley Not printed.
77. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, for a copy of
any declarations or affidavits made by Robert Cruickshank, or other persons in the
Kegina Lands district, or any other complaints in regard to alleged improper or unau-
thorized charges by individuals, whether in the service of the Government or not, for
locating settlers on homesteads, or obtaining for them entries for homesteads, by can-
cellation or otherwise, together with all correspondence, reports, or other papers on the
subject; also all communications, reports, correspondence, or other papers between the
Department of the Interior and any of its officials and any person or persons in regard
to homestead entries, cancellations, protections, inspectors' reports, &c., for the s.w. i
sec. 16 and the n.w. J sec. 20 and the n.w. and s.w. J sec 36, all in tp 14, r. 9, w. 2nd M.
Presented 23rd January, 1908. — Mr. Lake Not printed.
78. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing how
many applications were refused for permission, as granted by order in council passed
on 16th May, 1906, for saw-mill owners to cut timber. Presented 23rd January, 1908.
— Mr. Roche (MarquetteJ Not printed.
79. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th February, 1907, showing the
total expenditure each constituency, as defined prior to last Redistribution Act, the
the years 1897, 1898, 1899, 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906, for: (a) Harbours
and rivers, including dredging, wharfs, docks, breakwaters, piers, or other improve-
ments and repairs, (b) For public buildings and lands, including repairs, extensions,
Ac. (c) Maintenance and caretakers, including fuel, lights, &o. (d) Expenditure iu
connection with Intercolonial Railway, including purchase of lands, erection of build-
ings, repairs, &c., and improvements, and the place where spent. Presented 29th Janu-
ary, 1908.— 3/r. Sproule Not printed.
80. Return to an order of the House of '^ommcns, dated 11th December, 1907, showing a
summary of stock, implements, chattels, grain, hay, roots and all other kinds of fodder,
with their value, for the years ending 1st December, 1906 and 1907; also the amount
paid for all kinds of live stock, tlieir kind and number, the amount paid for all kinds
of feed, giving the kind, the amount of all kinds of product sold, and their kind; the
amount paid for all kinds of grain and seed for distribution for the same years, on
the Central Expsrimental Farm, Ottawa. Presented 23rd January, 1908.- Mr. Jackson
(Elgin) Not printed.
81. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated lltli December, 1907, showing the
number of immigrants secured and located by Mr. N. B. Miller, of the town of Napanee,
in the county of Lennox and Addington, the names of such immigrant, his age, the
names of the respective parties with whcm they were located, also the township iu
which such party resides; also the amount of money received by the said N. B. Miller
from the government for his services in salary, couimission, or both; also the amount
of moneys received by the said N. B. Miller, respectively, from residents in the said
county of Lennox and Addington for his services in securing the aforesaid immigrants.
Presented 23rd January, 1908.— Mr. H'ilson (Lennox and Addington) Not printed.
81a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing tho
number of immigrants secured and located by Mr. M. C. Dunne, of Yarker, in the
county of Lennox and .Addington, the names of each such immigrant, his age, the names
18
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS or VOLUME IS— Continued.
of the respective parties with wliom they are located, also the township in which such
party resides; also the amount of money received by the said M. C. Dunne from the
government for his services in salary, commission, or both ; also the amount of moneys
received by the said M. C. Dunne, respectively, from residents in the said county of
Lennox and Addington for his services in securing the aforesaid immigrants. Pre-
sented 23rd January, 190S.— .Vr. Wilson (Lennox and Addington) Not printed.
81b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing list
of the names of immigration agents appointed by the government in each county of the
province of Ontario, the county in which each such agent is employed, the number
of immigrants placed by each such agent, and the amounts paid to each such agent
for his services and expenses. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Clements.Not printed.
81c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all reports received by the government from each of the special immigration agents
sent to Great Britain and the continent of Europe, for the fiscal year ending 31st
March, 1907. Presented 30th January, 1908.— Sir. Wilson (Lennox and Addington).
Not printed.
81d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing the
number of immigrants who reached and settled in Canada during the fiscal years of
1905-6 and 1906-7, and from what countries they came. Presented 11th February, 1908.
— Mr. Paquet Not printed.
81e. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence between the Department of the Interior and James S. Waugh, immi-
gration distribution agent, subsequent to 1st December, 1907. Presented 11th February,
1908.— Mr. Gordon Not printed.
81/. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, showing what
special immigration agents the Government of Canada has in the British Islands; their
respective names, and from what parts of Canada they come; the arrangements made
by the Government with the said agent or agents as to salary and expenses; the date
of their respective appointments, and at what time they left this country to take up
their work. Presented 11th February, 1908.— .1/r. Wilson (Lennox and .iddington).
Not printed.
81g. Return to an Address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy
of all orders in council now in force with respect to immigration from every country
from which immigrants come to Canada; also a copy of all circulars in force at the
present time with reference to immigration. Presented 13th February, 1908. — Mr.
^]'ilson (Lennox arid Addington) Not printed.
81h. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, for a copy of
all certificates by farmers resident in the riding of West Kent, and returned to the
department by emigration agents for the said riding, and on certificates such agents
were paid for placing emigrants with each farmer, giving the names of each emigrant
and of each farmer such were placed with, giving the total amount received by each
agent up to the present time Presented 3rd March, 1908. — Mr. Clements. ..Not printed.
81i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of all
certificates by A. G. McDonald, immigration agent for Prince Edward County, Ontario,
claiming payment for immigrants by him alleged to have been placed with farmers or
other employers; also, a copy of all certificates or communications by such farmers or
other employers received by the Department of the Interior relating to immigrants bo
claimed as placed by said A. G. McDonald, giving in each case the name and post office
address of the immigrant and of the farmer or the employer. Presented 13th April,
1908.— 3fr. Alcorn Not printed.
19
V461— aj *
Y Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued.
81;. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing the
expenditure of the Government for food, clothing and other maintenance for immi-
grants after landing in Canada for the years 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907,
1908, to 1st March. Presented 30th April, 1908.— iVr. Schaffner Not printed.
81fc. Report of E. Blake Robertson, assistant superintendent of immigration, respecting
Joseph Bernstein, Halifax. Presented 27th May, 1908, by Hon. F. Oliver... IVof printed.
82. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing the
total amount paid by this Government each year, during the past five years, towards
mail subsidies to steamships ; the names of the countries served, the names of steamers
and contractors, and the steamship subventions. Presented 28th January, 1908. — Mr.
Armstrong Printed for sessional papers.
83. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of
the lease, conditions, &c., passed betv een the Government of Canada and a company
for the use of the Beauharnois Canal. Presented 24th January, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron.
Not printed.
84. Copies of a letter and telegrams between the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia
and the Honourable the Secretary of State for Canada, on the subject of the disallow-
ance of a Bill of the Legislature of British Columbia, intituled : " An Act to regulate
immigration into British Columbia." Presented 24th January, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid
Laurier Not printed.
85. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 8th January, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence between the Department of Justice, or any department of the Govern-
ment, and Mr. Frederick Fraser Forbes, now a district judge in the province of Sas-
katchewan, or any other person or persons, in reference to the personal or professional
status or character of Mr. Forbes, or his appointment as a judge as above-mentioned,
and of all writings and documents of any kind in reference to the foregoing matter.
Presented 28th January, 1908.— Mr. Taylor Not printed.
86. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, showing the
number of applications made to the Board of Railway Commissioners for the privilege
of crossing railway tracks with telephone and telegraph wires and with water mains
each, over the said period from 1st February, 1904, to the 1st January, 1908; the total
number of applications granted over said period ; the total number of applications
refused; the date of each application; the date each application was granted; the length
of time from the application to the granting of same; and what time should elapse
before the board should give its decision. Presented 27th January, 1908.— Mr. Barr.
Not printed,
87. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing, in
respect of all grants of right to divert water and construct ditches made under the
provisions of the Yukon Placer Mining Act, 1906, the number of the claim, name anl
address of the grantee, date of issue, length of term, source of water, quantity that may
be diverted, estimated expenditure within one year, time limit for construction, sum
paid for the privilege and tlie name and address of present holder, if rights have been
transferred. Presented 30th January, 1908.— Mr. Boyce Not printed.
88. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the
timber lands sold or leased by the Department of the Interior subsequent to the date
of those included in Sessional Paper, No. lG7u, brought down to the House on the 9th
of April, 1907; the description and area of such lands, the applications made tlierefor,
the notice of advertisement for sale or tender, the tenders received, the amount of
each tender, the tenders accepted, the name of the person or company to whom each
lot was sold or leased, and the name and address of each person or company to whom
any of such lenses have been transferred. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Amet.
Nol printed.
20
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLXOIE IS— Continued.
880. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing, in
respect of timber berth number 1279, all applications, correspondence, reports, adver-
tisements, terders, leases, transfers, or memoranda of any description. Presented 3rd
February, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed.
88b. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in
respect of timber berths numbers 1031, 1118, 1097 and 1098, all bonuses, rentals, or dues,
paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a copy of
all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, transfers or
memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 18th February, 1908.
— Mr. White Not printed.
88c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, i.i
respect of timber berths numbers 1050, 1265, 1267, 1274 and 1275, all bonuses, rentals or
dues paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a
copy of all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, trans-
fers or memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 18th Febru
ary, 1908. — Mr. Boyce Not printed.
88d. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for the pro-
duction of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the
Interior in respect of timber berths numbers 1050, 1265, 1267, 1274 and 1275, and that
the names be laid upon the Table of the House, said papers not to be part of the
archives of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the
Interior after inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Boyce Not printed.
88e. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for the pro-
duction of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the
Interior in respect of timber berths numbers 1031, 1118, 1119, 1097 and 1098, and that
the same be laid upon the Table of the House, said papers not to be part of the archives
of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the Interior after
inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908.— Mr. White Not printed.
88/. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for the pro-
duction of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the
Interior in respect of timber berths numbers 1048, 1049, 1122 and 1168, and that the
same be laid upon the Table of the House, said papers not to be part of the archives
of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the Interior
after inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908.— Jfr. Boyce JVof printed.
S8g. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, that there be
laid on the Table for inspection the original applications and tenders in respect of
timber berths numbers 1220, 1226, 1238 and 1272, said papers not to be part of the
archives of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the
Interior after inspection. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Mr. Lake A'^ot printed.
88,'i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in
respect of timber berths numbers 1048, 1049, 1122 and 1168, all bonuses, rentals, or dues
paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a copy of
all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, transfers and
memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 9th March, 1908. —
Mr. Boyce Not printed
88i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in
respect of all timber berths at present under license or authorized to be licensed within
the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Northwest Territories, (a)
number or designation of each berth; (b) number of license for 1907-8; (c) area of
berth in square miles; (d) name and address of present license holder; (e) name and
address of original applicant, with date of his application; (/) date of issue from Ottawa
of advertisement; (g) date fixed therein for opening of tenders; (h) name and address of
21
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued.
successful tenderer ; (t) amount of bonus paid ; (;) date when definite selection of blocks
was completed and the returns of the survey filed with the Department of the Interior
at Ottawa; (fc) amount of dues collected during the year ending the 30th of April, 1907.
in respect of each berth for ground rent, stumpage royalty, and the cost of fire guard-
ing, &c. ; also the amount, if any, unpaid and overdue at the termination of said year ;
(l) whether license was issued according to order in council of April lith, 1903, or of
July 23rd, 1906; (m) in case of berths upon which during the year 1906-7 no timber was
cut, whether notification has been served on license holder to operate a saw-mill, and
the date of such notice. Presented 11th March, 190S.— Mr. McCarthy (Calgary)
Not printed.
883. Return to an order of th'e House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, bringing the
information as contained in Sessional Paper No. 1676, brought down April 26th, 1907,
up to date. Presented 13th March, 1908.— Mr. Ames Not printed.
88k. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of
all letters, correspondence, applications, advertisements, reports, memoranda, valua-
tions, estimates, tenders, transfers, or other writings or papers in respect of or in con-
nection with timber berths numbers 1413, 1414 and 1415. Presented 16th March, 1908.—
Mr. Lennox Not printed.
881. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy of
all applications to homestead or purchase, reports, agreements of lease or sale, corres-
pondence exchanged between the Department of the Interior and any person whatso-
ever, and papers of every description dealing with or treating of the sale or lease of
surface, mining, timber, or any other rights in respect of the n.w. J of section 8, town-
ship 53, range 4, west of the 5th M. Presented 19th March, 1908.— Mr. .Imes.
Not printed.
88m. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing, in
respect of timber berths numbers 1220 to 1226, 1238 and 1272, all bonuses, rentals or
dues paid to date by the lessees or other assigns to the Government, together with a
copy of all applications, correspondence, reports, advertisements, tenders, leases, trans-
fers or memoranda of any description in connection therewith. Presented 24th March,
1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed.
88n. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of
applications, recommendations of applications, and replies thereto, inslruclions, regard-
ing advertising, and a copy of all tenders and replies thereo, for timber berths numbers
652, 657, 677. 679, 681, 683, 684, 721, 722, 730 and 743. Presented 30th March, 1908.— Mr.
McCraney Notprinted.
886. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 1908, for the production
of all the original applications and tenders filed in the Department of the Interior in
respect of timber berths 1046, 1047, 1052. 1058, 1068. 1070. 1093, 1094. 1099, 1191, 1192 and
that the same be laid upon the Tabic of the House, said papers not to be ijart of the
archives of this House, but to be returned by the Clerk to the Department of the
Interior after inspection. Presented 13th -Vpril, 1908.— .1/r. Ames Not printed.
88p. Return to an .\ddress of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908. for a copy
of all orders in council, letters, telegrams, reports, recommendations, tenders or com-
munications of any kind in relation to the granting of si.\teen townships and certain
timber limits in the Pence River region, as referred to in a motion of the 15th January,
ult., reference 102. not already brought down. Presented 13th April. 1908.— Mr. Uughes
(Victoria and Ualiburton) Notprinted.
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued.
88g. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing tho
total sum (money or scrip) that the Government has received on account of the lands,
mines, minerals, timber &c , in the various Dominion lands offices in the provinces of
llanitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, distinguishing between each province, during the
following periods: from 1st July, 1896, to 30th June, 1905, and from 1st July, 1905, to
31st December, 1907. Presented 21st April, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed.
88r. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, showing all
sales of Dominion lands other than coal lands, of 160 acres and upwards, in the pro-
vinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and -ilberta, which have been made by the Govern-
ment during the calendar year 1907; the prices obtained; names of purchasers; dates
of sales; and in general terms, the grounds upon which sales were authorized. Pre-
sented 21st April, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed.
88s. Return to an order of the House of Commons dated 17th February, 1908, showing: 1. How
many applications for timber licenses were received by the Government of Mr. Mackenzie,
what area in square miles they covered, how many licenses were issued, what area they
covered, and under how many of those licenses operations were actually carired on, and
what area these included. 2. How many applications for timber licenses were received
by the Government from November 1st, 1878, to July 1st, 1896, and what area in square
miles they covered, how many licenses were issued, and what area they covered, under
how many of these licenses operations were actually carried on, and what area they
covered. 3. How many permits to cut lumber were given to applicants as above in
leases where licenses had not issued during each of these periods. Presented 21st April,
1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed
88t. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing a Ust
of timber berths awarded between 1st June, 1904, and 15th July, 1906, with the number
of tenders in each case, the amount of each tender, the name of the successful tenderer,
the area of each berth, the dates of notice and opening of the tenders in each case. Pre-
sented 22nd April, 1908. — Mr. Crawjord Not printed.
88u. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what coal
lands were granted to sundry persons through the agency of P. E. Lessard, of Edmon-
ton, together with copies of all letters, papers and documents relating to the applica-
tion, sale, lease or cancellation of the same. All from the general file for the group of
claims, and not the special file for each section. Presented 7th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames.
Not printed.
88i\ Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing what
coal areas are held by F. E. Kcniston, of Minneapolis; said return to include a copy
of all letters, documents and correspondence relating to the application, sale, lease or
cancellation of the same, from the general file for each group of claims, and not the
special file of each section. Presented 7th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed.
88k. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what
coal lands are now or have been at any time owned, controlled, leased or operated in
townships 53 and 54, range 7, west of the 5th meridian, by the Alberta Development
Company (Limited), together with a copy of all applications, correspondence, deeds
of sale and other documents in connection therewith. Presented 12th May, 1908.—
Mr. .4.mes .Not printed.
88j. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what
coal lands in townships 9 and 10, ranges 21, 22 and 23, west of the 4th meridian, were
granted through the agency of J. W. Bettes (or his firm), of Winnipeg, Alanitoba,
together with a copy of all lettej-s, documents and papers relating to the application,
sale, lease or cancellation of the same. All from the general file for the group of claims,
and not the special file for each section. Presented 18th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames.
Not printed.
23
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued.
8Sy. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 1908, for the production
of all original tenders filed in the Department of the Interior in respect of timber
limits numbers 645, 616, 675, "03, 705 and 733 to 737, and that the same be laid upon
the table of the House, said papers not to be part of the archives of this House, but to
be returned by the clerk to the Department of the Interior after inspection. Presented
20th May, 190S.—A/r. jJ/cCrancy Xot printed.
S8z. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing what
coal areas were obtained through the agency of Malcolm McKenzie on behalf of clients;
and a copy of all letters, documents and correspondence relating to the application, sale,
lease or cancellation of the same; also the same information in regard to J. H. Moss, of
Toronto. All from the general file for each group of claims, and not the special file for
each section. Presented 27th M.iy, 190S. — Mr. Ames Not printed.
88aa. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy
of all applications, leases, assignments, correspondence, and papers, of every description
in connection with or referring to the granting or sale of the mining rights in sections
17, 20, 21, 28, 29, 32 and 33, of township 8, range 4, west of the 5th meridian. Presented
27th May, 1908.— If r. Perleij Not printed.
88i>b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing what
coal lands in townships 41 and 42, ranges 17 and 18, west of the 5th meridian, were
granted through the agency of McGiverin & Hayden, Ottawa, together with a copy of
all letters, documents and papers relating to the application, sale, lease or cancellation
of same. All from the general file for the group of claims, and not the special file for
each section. Presented 27th May, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed.
89. Return to an Address of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, for a copy of
all papers and correspondence between tlie government of Canada and the government
of the province of British Columbia, relating to the application of the Grand Trunk
Pacific Railway Company to acquire a portion of the Metlakatla Indian Reserve, British
Columbia, and to the general question of the claim of said province to the Indian
reserves therein, since the date of said application. Presented 30th January, 1908. —
■ Mr. Ross (Yale-Cariboo) Not printed.
90. Return to an order of the House of Comnious. dated 15th January, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence, reports, locations, records of payments made on, payments returned,
homestead entries, cancellations thereof; of any order, direction or other authority
given to any homesteader or person who had entered for homestead to re-enter after
concellation of entry or default thereunder; any evidence of sale b> Peter Luensen to
Frederick Heintz, and any correspondence, affidavits, memoranda, or otiier documents
by the department, or any of its officers, with W. L. MacKenzie, Peter Lueuson,
Frederick Heintz, Alexander K. Thorn, \Vm. R. Gardner, Thomas J. Oliver, or any
other person in regard to the n.e. i .sec. 32, township 36, r. 16, west of 2nd m., Saskat-
chewan. Presented 30th January, 1908.— .1/r. Porter Not printed.
90a. Supplementary return to No. 90. Presented 1st April, 1908 Not printed.
90b. Return to order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing: 1. Any Gor-
ernment lands near New Westminster, British Columbia, sold to one J. W. Patterson,
and, if sold, by what department of the Government. 2. Whether they were Indian or
military reserve lands, or cither of them. 3. The prices Mr. Patterson paid for said
lands, if any were sold to him. 4. The date of such sale or sales. Presented 27th April,
1908.— Mr. Reid (Grenville) .• iVot printed.
90c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908. showing all lands
acquired from the (iovernment by the Grand Trunk Pacific Town and Development
24
r
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued.
Company, together with the area, location, purchase price of each tract, and a copy of
all correspondence between the Government and the company or any individuals inter-
ested therein or connected therewith, as to the general terms and conditions under"
which tlie Governnieut land should be granted to the said company. Presented 27th
April, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed.
90(/. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, showing all the
lands granted to the Saskatchewan Valley Land Company under their contract of May,
1902, specifying those which arc patented as well as those unpatented, to date. Pre-
sented 30th April, 1908.— Mr. Roche (Marquette) Not printed.
90e. Rpturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing the
approximate total area of Dominion lands disposed of by the Government in each of
the provinces of Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan, between the 1st July, 1896, and
the 30th June, 1905, distinguishing between lands for agricultural purposes, grazing,
irrigation, timber and coal; and also from the 1st July, 1905, to the 31st December,
1907. Presented 7th May, 1908.— 3fr. Lake Not printed.
91. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing the
names and number of establishments being operated under the law and legulations of
the "Meat and Food Inspection Act"; when they were individually put under the
operation of the Act; and the names and number of inspectors for each establishment,
presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Huglies (Victoria and Haliburton) Not printed.
92. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, for a copy of
all papers, correspondence, tenders and contracts, in connection with building piers at
Port Maitland, Ontario. Presented 30th January, 190S.— 3/r. Lalor Not printed.
92o. Return to an order of tbe House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, contracts, telegrams, reports, plans and specifications, together with
all other information not already brought do^vn, in possession of the Government,
relating to the construction of piers or docks already constructed or under construction
at the following places: Bayfield, Huron county, Ontario i Grand Bend, county of
Huron, Ontario; St. Joseph, county of Huron, Ontario; together with a statement of
all moneys expended, and to whom paid, and the date of payment, and nature of the
work done or material used. Presented 7th May, 1908. — Mr. Armstrong Not printed.
926. Supplementary return to No. 92a. Presented 11th May, 1908 Not printed.
93. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing the
total amount of bounties paid by the Government since 189S, and the amount for each
year on each article. Presented 30th January, 1908. — Mr. Clements.
Printed for sessional papers.
94. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 19th February, 1907, for a statement showin"
the names, christian names, age, and country of origin of all the persons who, coming
from the British Isles, from English colonies or from foreign lands, as strangers
to Canada, have been placed, whether by order in council, by decision of the Militia
Council, or otherwise, in any branch whatsoever of the military service of Canada, in
the permanent force or in the volunteer force, together with the date of each of these
appoiutments, the nature of the employment, the rank of the holder (before and after
his appointment), and the yearly amount which he receives for liis services. Presented
22nd January, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Lnnrl>-y Printed for sessional papers.
95. Return of reductions and remissions made under Revised Statutes of Canada, chapter 81
section 88, ss. 2. Presented (Senate) 22nd January, 1908, by Hon. Mr. Scott.iVot printed.
25
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTTME 18 — Continued.
96. Koiurii to an address of the House of Commons, dated 17th December, 1906, for a copy
of all orders in council, advertisements for tenders, tenders, specifications of every
kind, plans, drawings, reports, letters, telegrams, correspondence, contracts, agreements
and other documents and papers of every kind, touching or relating to any works at
or near St. Andrews Eapids, in the province of Manitoba, and especially such documents
as aforesaid in connection with any tender or contract by or on behalf of Charles
Whitehead, or Kelly Brothers, or any subsequent tenderers or contractors. Presented
29th January, 1908.— Jfr. Borden fCaWefonj Not printed.
97. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13lh January, 1908, for a copy of all
papers, correspondence, and evidence, in respect of the trial for criminal conspiracy
against certain persons in the Yukon in connection with the Dominion elections of 1904.
Presented 3rd February, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed.
98. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence between JIajor E. S. Wigle, of Windsor, Honourable R. F. Sutherland,
A. H. Clarke, and the Minister of Inland Revenue, respecting the extension of the
franchise of the Windsor, Detroit and Belle Isle Ferry Company. Presented 3rd
February, 1908.— Mr. Clements Not printed.
99. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence, telegrams, or reports, respecting the refusal of the lieutenant governor
of British Columbia to give his assent to a bill passed by the legislature of that proviuce
in 1907, respecting immigration and commonly referred to as the Natal Act. Presented
3rd February, 1908.— Afr. Smith (Nanaimo] Printed for sessional papers.
100. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy
of all papers and correspondence between the government of Canada and any of its
ministers with reference to the establishment of a fast line of steamship communication
between Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canadian ports. Presented
3rd February, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed.
101. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated lltU December, 1907, for a copy
of all correspondence, enclosed clippings, agreements, statements, &c., between the gov-
ernment or any member thereof, and especially the Minister of Marine and Fisheries,
the Minister of Railways, the Minister of .\griculture, the Minister of Jlilitia, and Sir
Wilfrid Laurier, and one F. E. Williams, of St. John, New Brunswick; one W. H.
Trueman, of St. John, and any other person or persons whatsoever in relation to the
establishment of a bait freezer and cold storage established in St. John, New Brunswick.
Presented 5th February, 1908.— .Wr. Foster Not printed.
102. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated llth December, 1907, showing the
e.xpenditure by the Dominion Government on (a)wharfs; (b) harbours and river
improvements; (c) dredging; (d) public buildings; for each year since 1896, in the
counties of Digby, Yarmouth, Shelburne, Queen's, Lunenburg and Pictou. Nova Scotia,
specifying the works by name, with amounts expended thereon. Presented Gth February,
1908.— .Vr. Foster Not printed.
103. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, for a copy of
letters, telegrams, and reports, regarding complaints made by John Franklin and
Stapleton Brothers, with respect to Indian Agent Yeomans. Presented 6lh February,
1908.— .Vr. Foster Not printed.
104. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2flth January, 1908, showing the
amount paid each year for provisions for the Royal Military College, for the Halifax
Garrison, and the Permanent Military School in Quebec, the average number of men
provisioned each year of the above institutions, and cost per man per day. Presented
10th February, 1908.— Mr. Foster .Vot printed.
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTTME IS— Continued.
105. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the
number of fishing licenses issued by the Government for any of the lakes in the pro-
vince of Saskatchewan, to whom issued, and on what lakes. Presented 10th February,
1908.— Afr. Chisholm (East Huron) Not printed.
106. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, showing what
hinds have been sold, leased, given as homesteads, transferred or set apart in any way
by the Government to each: individuals, companies, syndicates, or other organizations
in the Peace Eiver Valley, or along or near tributaries thereof, in the Northwest of
Canada; when each area was allotted; the terms between the Government and the
various parties or organizations concerned; what prices per acre were realized from
these transactions; with whom the Government conducted negotiations in each case;
the regulations governing the securing of land in the Peace River Valley; and how far
it is from Kdmonton to Dunvegan. Presented llth February, 1908. — Mr. Hughes (Vic-
toria and Halihurlon) Not printed.
107. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, for a copy
of all orders in council, reports, memoranda, correspondence, documents, plans, tenders
and advertisements of every kind, nature and description, relating to the proposed
acquisition under lease of certain car work shops with railway sidings at Moncton,
New Brunswick. Presented 12th February, 1908. — Vr. Barker Not printed.
108. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing all
coal lands leased, sold or otherwise disposed of from the 1st of March, 1907, to date,
giving the area disposed of, the party to whom, the consideration therefoi, the assign-
ments made, if any, the date thereof, and the name of the assignee in each case.
Freserfed 13th February, 1908. — Mr. .-Imes Not printed.
lOSi. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing, in
I'espect of each of the undermentioned blocks disposed of as coal lands by the Govern-
ment, viz. : Section 13, of township 9, range 4, west of the 5th m. ; section 16, township 10,
range 3, west of the 5th m., section 15, township 11, range 4, west of the 5th ra.; section
20, township 12, range 4, west of the 5th m. ; section 5, township 13, range i, west of the
5th m., section 21, township 19, range 7, west of the 5th m. : when and by wliom the first
application was made for right to acquire; when and to whom (he original grant of
mining rights was made; what transfers of rights have been recorded, the date of
transfer, and date of registration of same; who the present owner or occupant is, as
known to the department ; and the name and address of each company or person above
referred to. Presented 16th March, 1908. — Mr. Ames Not printed.
108b. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 190S, for a copy of
(a) an order in council of the 19th May, 1902, and the regulations therein referred to and
approved for the disposal of coal lands, the property of the Dominion Government, in
Manitoba, the Northwest Territories and British Columbia. (b)A copy of ail ordtrs in
council altering, amending or cancelling any such regulations for the aforesaid pur-
poses, and the said amended or other regulations. (c)A copy of all orders in council
approving, amending or cancelling regulations as regards the Yukon for the purpose.s
aforesaid, and the said regulations and amended regulations. Presented 24th March,
1908.— Mr. Bni-Acr Not printed.
108c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing, in
respect of each of the undermentioned blocks disposed of as coal lands by the Govern-
ment, viz.: sections 2, 4, 9, 15, 17, and 28, of township 7, range 3, west of the 5th m.,
when and by whom the first application was made for right to acquire; when and to
whom the original grant of mining rights was made; what transfers of rights have
been recorded, when such transfers were dated, and when registered with tlie depart-
ment; who the present owner or occupant is, as known to the department; and the name
and address of each company or person above referred to. Presented 24th Maicli, 1908.—
Afr. Ames Not printed.
27
7 Edw. Vil. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OP VOLUME 18— Continued.
108d. Return to an order of the Hoase of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy
of all inquiries, applications, leases, contracts, agreements, assignments, correspon-
dence and papers of every description, in connection with or referring to the granting
of coal mining privileges in section 11, township 8, range 4, west of the 5th meridian.
Presented 27th March, 1908.— -Vr. Ames Nul printed.
108e. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, showing:
1. What leases for coal lands in the Northwest Territories were granted by the Govern-
ment in the years 1903 and 1904. 2. To whom, and on what dates the same were granted,
and the amounts paid therefor. 3. Whether the person to whom the lease was granted
was the original applicant. 4. Whether any assignment of such leases has been made>
when, and to whom. 5. Who the present holders are of said leases. Presented 1st
April, 1908.— Mr. Boyce Not printed.
108/. Supplementary return to lOSe. Presented 6th April, 190S Not printed.
108,7. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, for a copy
of all applications, reports, correspondence, leases, contracts, deeds, sale and documents
of every description in connection with the purchase of coal mining lands either on
their own behalf or on behalf of clients, by the firm of Hough, Campbell & Ferguson,
or by any individual member of said firm, together with a copy of the regulations
governing the sale of such rights at the time of purchose. Presented 30th .-Vpril, 1908. —
Mr. Uirron Not printed.
108/i Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 190S, setting forth
in respect of the following coal lands: 1. The name and address of the first applicant-
and the date thereof. 2. The names and addresses of all subsequent applications, with
date thereof, in the order of application. 3. The name and address of the party to
whom the mining rights were granted, with date of sale or lease by the Government.
4. Price paid per acre, sale or lease. 5. Date and amount of first payment on account
of purchase price. 6. Dates and amounts of each subsequent payment on account of
purchase price. 7. Total amount paid as purchase price and balance, it any, still un-
paid. 8. How long reservation was made by the department in favour of the grantee
or Ills assigns. 9. The name and address of all parties to whom assignments were,
made, with date of each assignment, and date of its registration with the department.
10. The name and address of present owner of said mining rights. 11. A copy of all
correspondence in reference to the same: Township 7, range 3, west of 5th m.; sections 1,
2, 3, 4, 5, 6, less the s.e. J; section 7, less e. i; section 8; section 9; section 10, less s.w. i;
section 11, less s.e. J; section 14, less e. i; section 15; section 16, less n.e. i; section 17;
section 20, less e. i of n.e. i ; section 21, less s. J and n.w. i ; section 22 ; section 28 ;
section 27, less e. J; section 32, less e. i; section 33; section 34, less e. j. Township 7,
range 2, west of 5th m.; section 18, 20 and 21 Township 6, range 3, west of 5th m.;
sections 27 and 28; section 32, less w. J; sections 33 and 31. Presented 22nd April, 1908.—
Mr. .itncs Not printed.
109. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing on
what dates since June 30th, 1906, advances were made on account of travelling expenses
to Honourable L. P. Brodeur, to Mr. Wiallard, his private secretary, and to Napoleon
Potvin, his messenger, respectively, for what amounts, and to what accounts they wern
severally charged; also wliat refunds, if any, have been made on any ,if these several
advances, and on what dates. Presented 14th February, 1908.— Mr. Foster.. Not printed.
109a. Return showing all advances to Ministers of the Crown and their private secretaries,
on account of travelling or other e.\peuses in connection with the Imperial Conference
of 1907, the date of such advances, and the appropriation against which it was charged.
Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Foster Not printed.
28
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTIME IS— Continued.
109b. Return (as far as the Department of Inland Revenue is concerned), tn an order of
the House of Commons, dated 22nd .January, 1908, showing the advances made each year
since .Tuly 1, 1904, to December 31, 1907, on account of travelling expenses to Honourable
L. P. Brodeur and his private secretary and messengers, the date and amount of each
advance, and the appropriation to which it was charged, the dates at which each
advance was finally accounted for, and the dates on which any repayments were made to
the treasury, and the amount of such repayments, and all correspondence with the
Auditor General's Department in connection therewith. Presented 2nd March, 1908.—
Mr. Foster Not printed.
110. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 8th January, 1908, showing the
total quantity of freight carried on the winter steamers between Prince Edward Island
and the mainland during the past two seasons, 1905-6 and 1906-7; the amount of freight
that was delayed in transit for those two seasons; the freight rate on the different
classes of goods carried; the amount received for freight during those two seasons; the
amount received for passengers and the number carried; the number of days the
steamers failed to cross in each of those years; and the amount of damages paid to
shippers for delay of goods in transit. Presented 14th February, 1908. — Mr. Martin
(Queen'i) Not printed.
llOn. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 190S, for a copy of
all correspondence, telegrams, &c., in the possession of the Government or any member
or official thereof, respecting the withdrawal of the winter steamers from Charlottetown
on or about the 8th January, instant, and their replacement some days later. Presented
Uth February, 1908.— ilfr. Martin (Queen's) Not printed.
111. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 190S, for a copy of
all correspondence, reports and papers, respecting the salary, expenses, duties and
annual period of employment of W. Maxwell Smith, Dominion fruit inspector in British
Columbia; also full details of his expenses during the years 1906 and 1907, respectively.
1908. — Mr. Jackson (Elgin) Printed for sessional papers.
112. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of
pedigreed cattle, if any, did the Central Experimental Farm, Ottawa, sell during the
years 1906 and 1907; and how many in each year, giving the different breeds, the name
of purchaser, his place of residence, price paid, and breed. Presented I4th February,
1908. — Mr. Jackson (Elgin) Printed for sessional papers.
113. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 190S, for a copy of
all papers, accounts and correspondence, in connection with the seizure of the M. J.
Wilson Cordage Company, of the city of Chatham, Ontario, by the Dominion Govern-
ment, in the year 1904. Presented 17th February, 1908.— Mr. Clements.. ..Not printed.
114. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 31st January, 1908, showing the appointments
made to the Senate from confederation, with date of appointment and date when the
appointees ceased to be senators. Presented 11th Fbruary, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Wilson.
Printed for distribution,
115. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 29th January, 1908, showing the number of
persons killed and of those otherwise injured, separately, at railway crossings during
the last three years, gi\ing the number in each year separately ; giving also for each
year the number of persons thus killed or otherwise injured in thickly populated
places separately from those killed or otherwise injured in the rural distiicts, showing
also the number of such accidents at protected crossings separately from unprotected
crossings. Presented llth February, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Beique Not printed.
116. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated llth December, 1907, for a copy
of all communications, reports, correspondence, or other papers, between the Depirt-
29
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued.
meut of the Interior and any of its officials, and A. Samovici, H. Bolocan, and any other
person or persons in regard to the n.w. J section 20, township 22, range 13, west 2nd m.,
including applications for cancellation, protections, homesteads, inspectors' reports, &c.
Presented 18th February, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed.
117. Eeturii to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all correspondence between the Departments of the Marine and Fisheries and Justice
of Canada and the Attorney General of Nova Scotia, or any official acting under his
authority, in connection with the suit in the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia of the King
by Dr. Tail, of Cheticamp, in the county of Inverness, Nova Scotia, versus "William
Ancoin. Presented ISth February, 1908.— If r. Mclennan Not printed.
118. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, for a copy of
all contracts for food for men at the volunteer camps throughout Canada for the season
of 1907; also for the regular troops at Halifax, Quebec and other places. Presented
l«th February, 1908.— Mr. Smith ()Ventuorth) Not printed.
119. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908. for a copy of
all correspondence between the Railway Commission and the Department of Railways and
Cauals, or the Intercolonial Railway, and between the Railway Commission and the
Canadian Pacific Railway, and the Grand Trunk Railway, and between the Railway
Commission and the Fredericton Board of Trade, in reference to the alleged discrimina-
tion against the city of Fredericton in the matter of freight rates ; and aire for a copy
of all other papers and documents on file with the Railway Commission in relation
thereto. Presented 19th February, 1908. — Mr. Crocket JVof printed.
120. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, for a copy of
all ofiers, reports, valuations, plans, deeds of purchase, correspondence and other papers
of every description in connection with the purchase of site for the new Montreal
e.xamining warehouse, together with a statement of all expenditure and all indebtedness
incurred to date in this connection. Presented 19th February, 1908. — Mr. A mcs.
Not printed.
121. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 30th January, 1908, showing: 1. Title of
each Bill by years sent by the Senate to the House of Commons, from 1867 to 1907,
inclusive, that was (a) amended by the Hous of Commons, or (b) rejected. 2. Title of
each Bill by years sent up by the House of Commons to the Senate, from 1867 to 1907,
inclusive, that was (a) amended by the Senate, or (b) rejected. 3. The total number of
Bills for each year as above to be tabulated in four periods, (a) 1867 to 1ST3, inclusive;
(h) 1S74 to 1878, inclusive; (c) 1879 to 1896, first session, inclusive; (d) 1890 to 1907. inclu-
sive. Presented 19th February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) Not printed.
122. Report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into a dispute between tlie Bell
Telephone Company of Canada (Limited) and the operators of the said company at
Toronto, with respect to wages and hours of employment, etc. .ilso copy of evidence
taken under Royal Commission in the dispute between the Bell Telephone Company of
Canada and its operators, in February, 1907. Presented 2.1th February, and 11th March,
1908, by Hon. R. Lemieux Not printed.
123. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, for a copy of
the rontrart and all correspondence relating to a payment of $3,900 to the Midland
Towing and Wrecking Company, as set out at page P— 32 of the Auditor General's
Report for 1906-7, and of the advertisement calling for tenders. Presented 10th March,
1908.— Mr. Bcnnfff .Vol priiifcd.
124. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated ISth December, 1907, showing what
sums have been expended or voted for the dredging of the Riviere ii lo Graisse, a(t
Rigaud; to whom the contracts were given; and what sums have been voted or paid out
for dredging Dorion Bay, Vnudreuil station. Presented 24th February, 190S. — Ifr.
Bergeron Not printed.
30
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Continued.
124a. Retiiru to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907. showing what
sums have been voted or expended for the dredging of the river bottom between Charle-
magne and Terrebonne; since when the dredging has been going on there; what sums
have been voted or expended for wharfs at Terrebonne and at St. Frangois de Sales;
and who obtained the contracts. Presented 24th February, 1908.— Mr. Bergeron.
Not printed.
124b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing:
1. What harbours or rivers in the province of Ontario were tenders invited for dredging
work by the Department of Public Works during the present year. 2. The names of
the successful tenderers at each of the said places for which dredging tenders were
invited in Ontario in 1907, and the prices asked by each party respectively. 3. Amounts
of the tenders respectively of the different persons' tendering at each of the foregoing
points. 4. Also at what points new tenders were invited, and when the first tenders were
accepted. Presented 9th June, 1908. — Mr. Bennett Not -printed.
124c. Pt-tnrn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th of April, 1908, for a copy of
all the correspondence exchanged between the Government and Messrs. T. B. Mongenais,
Hugh McMillan and others, relating to dredging work done in the River Kigaud,
formerly the River Graisse, up to the year 1890. A copy of the reports and corres-
pondence relating to the construction or purchase of the Graham wharf. A copy of the
report and correspondence relating to the dredging done at Como up to 1900. A copy
of the reports and correspondence relating to the dredging done at Vaudreuil Village,
and also those relating to the construction and repair of the wharf situated in that
village since 1867. And also a copy of the report and correspondence relating to the
deepening of the River St. Louis at Beauharnois. Presented 30tli June, 1908.- -Mr.
Boyer Not printed.
125. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd Febriiary, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, telegrams, engineer's reports, &c., in the hands, of tlie Government
or any member or official thereof, respecting proposed repairs to the wharf at Little
Sands, in Prince Edward Island. Presented 25th February, 1908.— .Vr. Martin (Queen's).
Not printed.
126. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, tor a copy of
the re['ort made by John Fraser, of the Auditor General's Department, on the 7th
January, 1898, of a special examination held by him of the financial affairs of the
Montreal Turnpike Trust. Presented 10th March, 1908.— Mr. Monk Not printed.
126a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing:
1. The present indebtedness to the Dominion Government of the Montreal Turnpike
Trust (a) on capital account, (b) for arrears of interest. 2. The amounts collected at
each toll gate belonging to the said Turnpike Trust during the three years ending 31st
December, 1905, 1906, 1907, respectively. 3. The names of all parties who have com-
muted their tolls during each of the above-mentioned years, 1905, 1906, 1907, and the
amount of the commutation money paid to the Trust in each case. 4. The amounts
expended on each section or road division, under the control of the said Trust, during
each of the said years, ending 31st December, 1905, 1906, and 1907, respectively, and the
contracts given out during each of the said years, with the name of the contractor and
the date and amount involved in each case; and a statement in each case also as to
■whether the contract was awarded after tender called through the newspapers. 5. The
amount paid out during each of the said three years, 1905, 1906, 1907, at each toll gate
for salaries of day and night guardians, and any other expenditure at each of the toll
gates maintained. 6. The names of all parties holding passes for free use of the roads
under control of said Trust, during each of the said three years above referred to,
ISO.'i, 1906, 1907, with a statement in each case of the reason why the pass was so granted.
7. The expense of the said Trust during each of the said years, for rent, salaries of the
31
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued.
office, inside or outside service, giving name and remuneration of each official. 8. Tlie
actual present indebtedness in detail of the said Trust outside of its bonds due to the
Government of Canada. 9. The amounts collected, by said Trust, year by year, since
the 1st February, 1905, from municipalities under special agreements made as to their
share pro rata of the bonded indebtedness of the Turnpike Trust. 10. The names of all
those members of the Trust appointed or elected to represent the bondholders since
the 1st July, 1896, with the date of the election in each case. 11. The amounts paid by
tlie Trust to any of its members or officials during each of the said three years, ia05,
1906, 1907, whether as travelling or personal expenses, or indemnity for attendance or
for any other reason whatever. 12. The name of the auditor of the Trust, and the
date of the audit made of the company's affairs, in each of the said three years, 1905,
1906, 1907, respectively. 13. A copy of the agreements between the Trust and any muni-
cipalities on the Island of Montreal, by which the Trust ceded to said municipalities
any portion of its roads, said copy to be certified by the president and secretary of saio
Trust. Presented 20th March, 1908.— Mr. Mom/.- Not printed.
127. Keturn to an address of the Senate, dated 24th January, 1908, for a copy of the different
tariffs in force upon the Intercolonial Railway, in 1896-7 and 1906-7, between Quebec
and St. Flavie, and all intermediate stations between those two points, for the carriage
of passengers or of goods, under the operation of the winter-tariff and under that of
the summer-tariff. Presented 24th February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry.. ..Not printed.
128. Statement of the affairs of the British Canadian Loan and Investment Company,
Limited, for the year ended the 31st of December, 1907. Presented 25th February,
1908, by the Hon. The Speaker Not printed.
129. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, showing how
much money has been paid since 1896 to the Eclipse Manufacturing Company of
Ottawa; how much each year; and the general character of the supplies furnished.
Presented 27th February, 1908.— Mr. Blain Not printed.
130. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, for a copy
of all correspondence between Mr. A. E. Dyment, M.P., and the Department of Marine
and Fisheries as to granting of pound net licenses in 1905 to Messrs. Low & Roque, of
Killarney, as also to any other persons ; also a list of persons to whom pound net
licenses were granted in that year. Presented 27th February, 1908. — Mr. Bennett.
Not printed.
131. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, showing:
1. The number of disputes dealt with under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act,
1907, to the lot of December, 1907. 2. The dates at which the several applications for
the operation of the Act have been received. 3. Names of the parties concerned in the
several disputes. 4. Name of the party making application. 5. Locality of dispute.
6. Number of persons affected. 7. Nature of dispute. 8. Names of members of board
of conciliation and investigation where same has been established. 9. Date on which
board was established. 10. Date of sittings of board. 11. Result of the reference of
the dispute under Act. Presented 27th February, 1908.— Mr. Smith (Nanaimo).
Not printed.
132. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for a copy of
correspondence, plans, and other data in connection with the flooding of roads above
the dam at Wilberforce, in Haliburton County, and the proimsals, if any, for improving
said roads and the bridge so as to prevent obstruction of traffic. Presented 27th Feb-
ruary, 1908.— Mr. tlughes (Victoria and Haliburton) Not pritited.
133. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, for a copy of
reports, plans, surveys, and other data, in connection with the proposal to construct a
branch canal from Balsam Lake, on the Trent Canal, to the head of Gull River waters,
in Haliburton County. Presented 27th February, 1908.— Mr. Hughes (Victoria and
Jlaliburton) Not printed,
32
E(l\v. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTTJIE 18— Coidimied.
134. Return to an order of tlie House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
;ill correspondence received by the Department of Agriculture in connection with the
inspection of meats and the regulations in connection with the Inspection of Meats and
Canned Foods Bill. Presented 27th February, 1908. — 3/r. Clements Not printed.
134(1. Eeturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence, telegrams, reports and recommendations in possession of the Govern-
ment, with respect to the inspection of packing houses, or the Meat Inspection Act,
including the appointment of inspectors. Presented 25th ifarch, 1908. — Mr. Armstrong.
Not printed.
135. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 26th February, 1908, for a detailed statement
of the e.\penses incurred during the past three years, in connection with the synoptical
reports of the debates ot the Senate, furnished by the special reporter of that House,
as well as a statement of the nature and particulars of the agreement with the present
reporter. Presented 27th February, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Wilson Not printed.
136. Return to an address of the Senate dated 11th February, 1908, showing ilie amount of
imports of oxide of aluminum during the years 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907, with tlie
values of such imports for each one of said years separately. Presented 28th February.
1908.— Kon. Mr. Ellis Not printed.
136a. Eeturn to an address of the Senate, dated the 11th February, 1908, sho\ving the
amount of aluminum exported during the years 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907, with
the values of such exports for each one of the said years separately. Presented 28tli
February, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Ellis Not printed.
137. Regulations in virtue of the provisions of the Act 6-7 Edward VII., chapter 16, " The
Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act." Presented 17th March, 1908, by Hon. W.
Templeman Not printed.
138 Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 190S, for a copy of
all correspondence, documents, resolutions and other papers, which have passed between
the Government of Canada, or any member of the Governrment, and any railway
company or any individual relating to the building of a railroad from any point in
-Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, or British Columbia, to Fort Churchill or any ijoint
en Hudson Bay. Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Schaffner Not printed.
139. Copy of an order in council appointing Mr. Samuel Tovel Bastedo, ageiit on behalf of
the Dominion Government, to confer with the provincial governments with a view to
settlement of the Fisheries question. Presented Uth March, -1908.— ffon. L. P. Brodcur.
Not printed.
140. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 190S, for a copy of
all correspondence, papers, writings, plans and letters between the Government and the
[nternational Waterways Commission, on one part, and the St. Lawrence Power Com-
pany and the Long Sault Development Company, of the other part, with legard to tlio
entire damming of the St. Lawrence river, in the vicinity of Cornwall; together with a
copy of all memorials, letters and resolutions of protest sent to the Government by
the Board of Trade of Montreal, the Chambre de Commerce, District de Montreal, the
Shipping Federation of Slontreal, the Dominion Marine Association, and others.
Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Gervais Not printed.
140a. Supplementary return to No. 140. Presented 13th July, 1908 Not printed.
141. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 190S, lor a copy of
advertisement calling for tenders for dredging work on Holland river, Trent Valley
canal system, tenders iec?ived, schedules sho^ving pries paia, recommendation of person
for inspector, date of payments made to the contractors, and the contract with con-
tractor. Presented 2nd March, 1908.— Mr. Bfimeff Not printed.
33
7461—3
7 Edw. Vll. List of Sessional Papers. A. 190S
CONTENTS OF VOLITME 1^— Continued.
I41a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing what
contracts for dredging in the St. Mary's river, Kaministiquia river. Mission river. Port
Arthur harbour. Fort William harbour, and in Thunder Bay, or of any of the inlets
or rivers thereof, have been let during the years 19M, 1905, 1906 and 1907, showing also :
(a) the names, addresses and calling of all the tenuerers in each case; (b'. the amount of
each tender; (c) the naturi> and extent of the work to be let in each case; (d) the names,
addresses and calling of the successful tenderer in each case; (e) the prices at which
each contract was let, (/) the nature or form of security for the due performance of
the work in each case, and (g) the disposition of or change in the form of any such
security after it was originally given or deposited ; also, for a copy of all tenders,
contracts, bonds or other securities, and of all correspondence relating or incident to
all or any such tenders or contracts, including all correspondence relating to such con-
tracts, or incident thereto, before aud during the performance of the work and on file
up to the date of the order for such return. Presented 17th July, 1908. — Mr. Boyce.
Not printed.
142. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, for a copy
of all orders in eonncil, correspondence, contracts, papers and reports in connection with
the employment of certain experts to prepare a system of accounting and book-keeping
in the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 2nd March, 1908. — Mr. Foster.
Not printed.
143. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated, 11th December 1907, for a copy of
all correspondence in connection with the application, granting, operation or renew.il
of license and lease conveying the privileges of fishing in Cedar. Moose, Cormorant and
Clearwater Lakes; also a copy of said license and lease. Presented 3rd March, 1908.—
Mr. Ames Not printed.
144. Certain papers referring to Treaty Powers, &c. Presented 3rd March, by Hon. L. P.
Brodeur Printed for sessional p'lpers.
145. Return to an order of the House of Commons dated 11th March, 1907, for a copy of all
papers, affidavits and correspondence between the Government, or any official thereof,
with the Prince Edward Island Railway, or any official thereof, or any other persons
in reference to the leasing of the properties of Widow James Wiggins and Charles
Malley, at Alberton, Prince Edward Island. Presented 3rd March, 1908. — Mr. Lefurgeij.
Not printed.
146. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing the
total amount of money paid yearly from the year 1892 to 1st December, 1907, on each
of tlie following accoifnts: (n) Salary of Governor General; (b) Travelling expenses of
Governor General; (c) Expenditure on Rideau Hall, capital account; Expenditure on
Rideau Hall, maintenance; Expenditure on Rideau Hall grounds, capital account ;
Expenditure on Rideau Hall grounds, maintenance; (d) Expenditure on furnishings
of all kinds for Rideau Hall; (c) Expenditure on any other account in connection with
the office of Governor General; (/) Expenditure on any other account in connection
with Rideau Hall and grounds; ((/) Total expenditure of every kind yearly since 1892
in connection with the office of Governor General; (/i) Total expenditure of every kind
yearly in connection with Rideau Hall grounds. Presented .'ith March. 1908. —il/r.
Hi/son (Lennox and Addington) Not printed.
147. Return to an address of tlie House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, for a copy
of nil correspondence, telegrams, orders in council, contracts and tenders, with the
names, anil amounts of each, in possession of the Governtueut. or any member or offici.il
(hereof, resi)ecting the construction of a breakwater at Petit Rccher, on the south*
western side of Bale des Chaleurs, as detailed on page 74 of the Report of the Minislor
of Public Works for the year ended 31st March, 1907. Presented 5t!i March, 190S.— il/r.
Taylor Not printid.
147a. Supplementary Return to 147. Presented 12th June, 1908 iVo( prinfid.
34
7 Edw. Vll. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 18— Continued.
148. Rptnrn to an order of the Honse of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, showing the
individual name and place of re«;idence of the captain and crew of each of the Govern-
ment steamers Lansdoirne, Aberdeen, Druid, Brant, Lady Laurier, Minto and Stanley.
Presented 5th March, 1908.— Mr. Stanfield Not printed.
148a. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 5th of Febrnary, 1908, for a statement
showing, in so many columns: 1. The names of the officers actually employed on board
of Government vessels or of vessels hired by the Government for the season of naviga-
tion in the River St. Lawrence 2. The amount of wages or salaries paid monthly to
each of them for the period of their annual engagement. 3. The amount of wages or
salaries paid monthly to those who are only employed for a part of the year. 4. The
amount of wages or salaries paid monthly to those who, over and above their real ser-
vice, are paid a part of their wages or salaries during the months in which the vessels
are laid up for the winter. Presented 20th February, 1908.— //on. Mr. Landry.
Not printed,
140. Kelurii showing T\liat changes have occurred in the House of Commons branches of
the Clerk of the House and the Sergeant-at-arms' service since 1st July, 1907. Pre-
sented 5tb March, 1908.— Mr. Owen Not printed.
150. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, showing r
1. Flow many Returns or Se-ssional Papers have been presented to Parliament in answer
to motions for the same, since the 1st of January, 1906. 2. How many of these Returns
were taken out of the Office of Routine and Records, and the Journal Office, by mem-
bers of this House, since the above date, giving also the name of the member to whom
delivered. 3. For what length of time such Returns were retained by the members who
obtained them. 4. How many of these Returns had not been returned to the proper
officer of the House of Commons on the 1st of January, 1908. 5. In the case of those
returned, how long they were out with the members. 6. How many of these Returns
are still in the possession of the members, and how long they have had them. 7. The
means usually adopted by the Clerk of Routine and Records and the Clerk of Current
Sessional Papers to have outstanding returns retransferred to their possession. 8. The
average cost to the country of preparing these Returns by the various departments
interested, during the above period. Presented 6th March, 1908. — Mr. Johnston.
Not printed.
151. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing: 1.
The number of fishing licenses, the names of the parties to whom issued, ami also the
amounts of the revenues received from each license, on any or all of the lakes in tUe
province of Saskatchewan. 2. For a copy of all correspondence in connection with each
license so issued and in force, or about to be issued. 3. Also for a copy of the different
forms used for fishing licenses in the province of Saskatchewan. Presented 9th March,
1908.— Mr. Chisholm (East Uuron) Not printed..
152. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1903, for a copy of
all correspondence, documents and papers, in the investigation into the case of Mr. O.
S. Finnic, chief clerk in the gold commissioner's office, Dawson, Y.T. Presented 6th
March, 1908.— Mr. Thompson Not printed.
153. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th Febrnary, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence between Lieut.-Colonel Mallette, of the 64th Battalion, and the
Department of Militia and Defence, concerning Major Sabourin, of St. John, Quebec.
Presented 6th March, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron Not printed.
lS3a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, for a copy
of all correspondence between Lieut.-Colonel Mallette, of the 64th Battalion, and the
Department of Militia and Defence, for the organization of a regiment iu Valleyfield,
(juebec. Presented 6th March, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron Not printed.
7461— 3 i
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME IS— Concluded.
154. Report of the Eoyal Commissioa on the Quebec Bridge inquiry; also the Report ou the
Design of the Quebec Bridge bv C. C. Schneider : with Appendices. Pi esented 9th
March, 190S. by Hon. G. P. Graham.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers
CONTENTS OF VOLTIME 19.
154. (Vol. 2.) Royal Comruission Quebec Bri'l-,'e inquiry. Minutes of proceedings. Evidence
and exhibits Printed for both distribution and sessional papers.
15-la. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 12th December, 1907, for a copy
of all orders in council, correspondence, reports, memoranda, papers and documents,
since the 1st day of January, 1900, relating to the Quebec Bridge, including all reports
and orders in council, relating to the plans and specifications for the works of the
undertaking, or to any approval thereof by the Governor in Council, or by the Depart-
ment of Railways and Canals. Presented 26th May, 1908. — Mr. Borden (Carleton).
See -Ye. l.U.
15 i^. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 29th Januray, 1908, for a statement showius ;
1. Tf the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company has fulfilled the obligation which was
imposed upon it by clause 4 of the agreement made, between it and the Government,
on the 19th day of October, 1908, which clause reads as follows : " i. The company will
procure subscriptions for additional stock to the amount of $200,000, sucli new stock to
be issued at a price not below par and to be immediately paid up in full, the proceeds
to be applied in the first place to the payment of the discount at which the bonds of
the company were issued as aforesaid, to wit the sum of $188,721." (Being exactly the
difference between the sum of $472,000, the amount of bonds issued, and the sum of
$283,279, for which these same bonds were accepted.) 2. When did the company so
furnish subscriptions for additional work to the amount of $200,000. 3. Who are thi-
persons or the uonipanies who divided among them this additional stock to the round
sum of $200,000. i. On what date and for what amount did each of these persons or each
of these companies become owner of the aforesaid stock, 'i. Ou what date did each of
the aforesaid persons or companies pay into the hands of the company the pricei (in
part or in whole) of the stock so subscribed. 6. And if this amount of $200,000 was paid
in full and in what manner, distinguishing the amount paid in cash from the amount
paid in promissory notes or in any other ways. Presented 2nd June, 1908. — Uon. Mr.
Landry Sec No. l.U.
154c. Return to an address of the Senate, dated the 29th January, 1908, showing: 1. The
amount of money really paid by each of the present directors of the Quebec Bridge and
Railway Company into the capital stock of the said company. 2. The date each oif
these directors made each of his payments. 3. Among these payments or instalments
the proportion or amount that has been paid by means of promissory notes or of
unaccepted cheques. 4. By whom individually, and for what amount each one. 5. The
amount of money each of its directors has received from the Quebec Bridge Company
and from the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company up to this date, directly or indi-
rectly, personally or otherwise. 6. The nature of the services rendered for which each
of these amounts was paid. 7. The amount the present secretary has received out of the
funds of the company since he has been in the service thereof. S. The resolution that
subsequently to the collapse of the Quebec Bridge, within a few days immediately
following the disaster, the bridge company has voted giving a bonus of $3,000 to its
president. 9. The name of the funds, out of which the amount of this bonus was raised.
10. The resolution, if any, the company, on the same occasions, voted to aid the families
of the victims oi th.%t disaster. Presented 18th February, 1908. — Uon. Mr. Landry.
Not printed.
185. Iteturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 190S, showing what
land has been withdrawn for settlomtiit, or set apart, or sold, for colonination pur-
36
7 Edw. VII. List ■ *■ -' ■ ' P:iror>. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19—Continved.
I>oses, since 1896; the location aud amount in each case, specifying townships, sections,
half or qiiarter-section; to whom it has been sold, or alienated, and on what terms of
settlement; the price per acre, on tcms of payment, and the nationality of the settlers
in each colony ; when the lund was sold, alienated, reserved, or set apart, for such pur-
pose, in each case; and how many of these companies have complied with their con-
tracts, and to what extent. Presented 9th March, 1908.^Mr. Sproule Not printed.
155(1. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing
what lands, if any, have been reserved for grazing purposes or for acquisition by means
oi irrigation within the tract described as follows; Townships 12 to 19, inclusive, in
ranges 15 to 21, west of the 4th meridian; and when such lands were so reserved, and for
liow long it is the purpose of the Government to continue such reservation. Presented
16th March, 1908.— Afr. iennox Not printed.
Ia5{i. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, telegrams, reports, appUcations, surveyors' plans and maps, in
\i'fcrence to I'le homestead entrios for the southwest quarter of section 27, township 18,
lauge 10, tast, in the province of Manitoba. Presented 27th March, 1908.— .1'r. Staples.
Not printed.
153o. Setnrn to an order of the House of Commoas, dated 2:')th Jauuary, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, a))plications, recommendations for patent, and all papers in ixny
way relating to the disposal of or granting of privileges in connection with the s.e. J of
stction 2, township 8, range 2, west of the 5th meridian. Presented 3rd April, 1908.—
ilr. Uerron ^ot printed.
I55d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, applications and all other papers and documents relating in any
way to any and all applications for or in connection with or relating to the southeast
qxiatter of section 14, township 12, range 6, west 4th meridian. Presented 6th April,
1908.— Jfr. Herron Not printed
156. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2nd March, 1908, showing who
made the seizures under the Inland Revenue Department in the fiscal years 1906 and
lit07, in Cornwall, London, Ottawa, St. Catharines, Toronto, Joliette and Montreal, an I
what the seizures consisted of; the name of the party or parties from whom the
material was seized; the amount realized by the sale of such seized material; and how
this seized material was disposed of. Presented 9th March, 1908. — Mr. Barr.
Not printed.
156(1, Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, showing the
number of seizures under the Inland Revenue Department in the years 1906 and 1907,
the name of Ihe party or parties making the seizure; the description and quantity of
material seized ; the name of the parties from whom the material was seized ; how the
seized material was disposed of, whether by public auction or by private sale, and wliaf
the amount realized thereon was. Presented 9th March, 1908. — Mr. Barr.. .Not printed.
156b. Return to an order of the Honse of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, showing the
number of seizures made by the Customs Department for the fiscal years 1905, 1906 anj
1907; the reason for each seizure; the disposition of each case; the amount received
by (he Government, and by the party seizing or giving information in each case; and
the names of the ports at which such seizures took place. Presented 23rd April, 1908.—
Mr. Cockshutt Not printed.
156c. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 4th May, 1908, showing the names
of all officers employed in the Customs Department at the ports of Niagara Falls, Pori
Erie, Sarnia and Windsor; the rank and duties of their re.'^pective appointments, their
salaries at tl.e time of appointment, present rank, and increase of salary to any of
these officers since date of their appointment. Presented 4th May, 1908.— ilon. W.
Pa lerson -Yot printed.
37
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 190S
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
157. Hetnrn to an order of the House of Commons, dated Sth January, 1908, for copies o'
all documents, petitions, memoranda and correspondence received by the Government
since 1904, to this day, regarding the amendments to be made to the Inland Revenue
Act for the purpose of encouraging and protecting still more the Canadian tobacco
industry. Presented 9th March, 1908.— Mr. Duheau Not printed
157a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for a copj
of nil correspondence between the collector of customs at Charlottetown, Prince Edward
Island, and the Minister of Customs, or the Commissioner of Customs, including
declarations or statements in Avriting made by Messrs. Donald Nicholson and Evelyn
B. Harnett, of the Hickey & Nicholson Tobacco Company, Limited, respecting alleged
infraction of the provisions of the Inland Revenue Act, and of the regulations in
respect of tobacco and cigars and tobacco and cigar mantifactories, by Messrs. T. B
and D. J. Riley, of Charlottetown, or one of them. Also a copy of the reports of
^Viiliam Caven aud other officials and collectors of Inland Revenue; and of all corres-
pondence, letters and telegrams between the said T. B. and D. J. Riley, or either ol
them, and the Government, or any department, or officer thereof; and of all corres-
pondence between the officers of Inland Revenue in Charlottetown and the Government
or any department or official thereof, respecting said alleged infraction of said Act or
regulations; and all other correspondence, statements and information in possession
of the Government relating to the matter aforesaid; together with a statement of the
moneys paid voluntarily or otherwise in settlement or otherwise of penalties for such
infraction of the law, to 'whom paid, and the date of payment. Presented 16th March.
1908.— 3fr. McLean (Queen's) Not printed.
158. Papers relating to Trade Conference at Barbados. Presented 10th March, 190S, by Hon.
W. S. Fielding Not printed.
159. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of
all applications, tenders, correspondence, telegrams, or written communications of any
kind, in connection with the sale of certain lands in the Ocean Man, Pheasant Rump,
and Chasastapsin Indian Reserves, on the 15lh November, 1901; together with a copy
of advertisements of sales, the names of the newspapers in which they were inserted,
and the dates of insertion. Pre.=ented 12th March, 1908.— Mr. Lake Not printed.
160. Ret.nn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, showing how
many fire extinguishers were purchased by the Government for the different depart-
ments of the public service since the 30th June, 1906, to January 1st, 1908; from whom
they were purchased, and at what price; and the total amount paid for the same. Pre-
sented 12th March, ISOt.- i/r. Taylor Not printed.
160<i. Supplementary Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January,
1908, (as far as the Department of Marine and Fisheries is concerned), showing how
many fire extinguishers were purchased by the Government for the different depart-
ments of the public service since the 30th of June, 1906, to 1st January, 19l1S; from whom
they were purchased, and at what price; and tht total amount paid for the same.
Presented 26th March, 1908.— Jfr. Taylor Not printed.
161. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January. 1908. for n copy
ijf all letters, correspondence, plans, surveys, estimates, ic, in connection with the
[iroposal to open a waterway in St. Anicet and Ste. Barbe, in the county of Hunting-
don, from Lake St. Francis to St. Louis River. Presented 12th March, 1908.- Mr. Wahli.
(Huntingdon) Not prijited.
162. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th March. 1908, for copies of all
correspondence between tlie Auditor General and the Department of Marine and
Fisheries, concerning the travelling expcnscN of Commander Spain in 1905-6. Presentc<l
12th March, 1908.— Won. L. P. Brodeur Not printed.
38
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continved.
163. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, showing:
1. The total revenu" of Belleville, Ontario, Harbour, for the years 190.3, 1S04, 190.5, 1906
and 1907. 2. The expenditure for the years above-mentioned in the harbour; (a) for
salaries, and to whom, (b) dredging in each year; (c) for building retaining walls along
the river at entrance of harbour; and (d) to whom or what persons such last-named
sums were paid. 3. What money, if any, the Government has advanced to the Harbour
Commiscioners of Belleville for improvements, bow much and when. 4. If any money
has been advanced, what security the Government holds for repayment of the same.
b. The tenders received for building the retaining walls for improvement of Belleville
Harbour, the tenderers, the amount of each tender, and to whom the contract was
awarded. Presented 13th March, 1908. — Mr. Porter Not printed.
164. Copy of the order in council appointing Mr. Richard L. Drury, of Victoria, B.C., as a
j^pfcial officer of the Immigration Branch of the Department of the Interior in Japan.
Presented 17th March, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier .VoJ printed.
165. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 190S, for u copy
of all letters, telegrams, reports, documents and papers (so far as the same are not of
a confidential character) in relation to the trial and conviction of one Frederick
Blunden, for cattle stealing at Macleod, in the province of Alberta, in 1904. Presented
19th March, 1908.— Mr. Ward Not printed.
166. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 17th March, 190S, for a copy of the Minutes
of the meeting of the Standing Committee of the Senate on Railways, Telegraphs and
Harbours, held on the 21st and 22nd of May, 1901, be laid on the table. Presented 18th
March, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry ?,'o£ printed.
167. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a copy of the
interim report of the commissioner appointed to investigate alleged irregularities at
Sorel in connection with construction of piers on Lake St. Peter. Presented 23rd
March, 1908.— Hon. L. P. Brodeur Not printed.
168. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 1908, showing all
fines imposed for violation of the Fisheries Act in Division No. 2, Nova Scotia, com-
prising the counties of Antigonihh, Colchester, Cumberland, Guysborough, Halifax,
Hants and Pictou showing the amount of each fine, dates on which same were imposed
and paid, the place of trial in each case, the offence charged, and the names of the
convicting justices or fishery officers. Presented 23rd March, 1908. — Mr. Sinclair.
Not printed.
169. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of all
orders in council, reports, correspondence, documents, letters and papers not already
brought donn, relating ti a grant by His Majesty of any Indian reserves in the province
of British Columbia to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company, or to any officer of
tlie company, or to any person on behalf of that company. Presented 24th March,
190S. — Mr. Borden (CarletonJ Printed for sessional paper i
170. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 20th January, 190S, showing the
amount paid each year for provi.sions on each of the Government steamers for the last
three fiscal years, the average complement of officers and men provisioned on each for
each year, and the cost per man per day. Presented 24th March, 190S.— Afr. Foster.
Not I'rinted.
171. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 12th February, 1908, for a copy of
all petitions and correspondence relating to the establishment of a post office at Mill
Settlement, West, and also at north side of Newcastle Creek, in the electoral division
of Sunbiiry and Queen's. Presented 26th March, 1908.— Mr. Wilmot Not printed.
39
7 Edw. YII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Coniinued.
171ii. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 190S, for a copy of
all letters, petitions, correspondence and other papers in connection with the applica
tion to establish a post office at North Grove, in the county of Grenville. Presented
3rd ^Vpril, 1908.— Mr. Reid (Grenville) Not printed.
nib. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of
all letters, telegrams and petitions, in possession of the Government, or any member or
oiEcial thereof, respecting the dismissal of Mrs. Mary Finlay as postmistress at the
liea.i of St. Peter's Bay, and the appointment of her successor. Presented 3rd April,
1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not printed.
171c. Iv'etuin to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, shoAving the
number of post offices receiving daily, tri-weekly, semi-weekly, and weekly mails, in
eacii county of the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and the total postal
revenue and e.xpenditure in each of said counties. Presented 3rd April, 1908. — Mr.
Crocket Not printed.
nid. Upturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, telegrams, petitions, &c., in possession of the Government or any
member or official thereof, respecting the dismissal of Archibald McDonald as post-
master at Whim Road Cross, Prince Edward Island, and the appointment of William
McGinnon as his successor. Presented 3rd April, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's).
Not printed.
171e. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, showing
what complaints respecting the inadequacy of postal service or delays therein, or re-
specting lack of or defects in postal facilities or means of communications, have been
received by the Post Office Department since the 1st day of January, 1907, and the
general nature of such complaints. Presented 29th April, 1908. — Mr. Armstrony.
Not printed
171/. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of al
petitions, letters of recommendation, written requests and correspondence with the
government in connection with the opening of a Post Office Savings Bank in the post
office at St. Gabriel de Brandon, in the province of Quebec. Presented 29th April, 1908.—
Mr. Monk Not printed.
nig. E«turn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence, telegrams, petitions with signatures thereto, in possession of the
Government, or any member or official thereof, respecting the removal of a post oflice
from Angus .McDonald's place in Pisquid, Prince Edward Island, to Bussell Birt's, of
(be same place. Presented 29th April, 1908.— Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not printed.
nil.. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence ,telegrams and petitions in the possession of the Government or any
iiii'iiiber or olfioial thereof, respecting the dismissal of .Me.x. McLeod in 1905, as post-
n:aster at Valleyfeld East, Prince Edward Island, and the appointment of his successor.
Presented 29th April, 1908.— Mr. McLean (Queen's) Not printed
171;. Return to an address of the ICouse of Commons, dated 26th February, 190S, for a copy
of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, memoranda, resolutions and any information
in the possession of the Government, relating to changes in postal charges or regulr.
lions within the past two years, between the United States and Canada. Presented 5th
-May, 1908.— Mr. .irnistrong Not printed
171/. Rpliirn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, for a copy of
nil corresixiiidriice, telegrams, rejiorts and memoranda, in po.'isession of the Govern-
ment, or any member or official thereof, respecting the establishment of daily mails
and improvement of the mail service in the county of lijueen's. Prince Edward Island.
I'resi'ntid 2Gtli May, 190N.— .Vc. Minlin (Queen's) Not printed.
40
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1903
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
172. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th Februarv, 190S, showing what
sums of money were paid during the fiscal years 1905-6 and 1906-7 by any department
of the Government to the Steel Concrete Company, Limited; for what purpose such
payments were made; what orders for work or material to be done or supplied by that
company are now being filled, and the aggregate amount payable for same. Presented
26tli March, 1908.— Mr. Boyc'c Not printed.
173. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, showing Jbpw
many renewals of placer claims were granted by the Gold Commissioner at Dawson, on
or subsequent to the 1st of August, 1906, at SIO each; why the fee of $15, as required by
6 Edward VII., chapter 39, was not collected in these cases; and what shortages were,
afterwards collected. Presented 27th March, 1908. — Mr. Lennox Not printed.
173o. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, showing how
many renewals of placer claims were granted by the Assistant Gold Commissioner at
Whitehorse on or subsequent to 1st of August, at $10 each; why the fee of $15, as-
required by 6 Edward VII., chapter 39, was not collected in these cases; and what
shortages have been collected. Presented 30th March, 1908. — Mr. Lennox.. Xot printed.
174. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 8th January, 1908, showing: 1
What sums of money have been pwd for advertising and printing, respectively, to the
Sun and Star newspapers of St. John, N.B., the Chronicle of Halifax, the Echo and the
Glace Bay Gazette, and the St. John Globe, during the following periods respectively:
the fiscal years 1904-5, 1905-6, and from June 30, 1906, to date. 2. In what offices or job
offices the printing is done for the Sun, Star, Chronicle and Echo. Presented 30ri;
March, 1908.— 3/r. Foster Not printed.
174a. Rtturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th June, 1908, showing all sums
of money paid by the Government, or any department or official thereof, during the
years 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907, for advertising, printing, or for any other
purpose, or on any other account whatever, to the Sault Express, a newspaper published
at Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, or to any person or persons, firm or company for or in
respect of any work done by said newspaper for the Government, or any department
or official thereof: also showing what amounts, if any, are disputed and unpaid, and
showing for what purpose such moneys were paid, and accounts were incurred, respec-
tively, and by what departments, or officials of the Government. Presented 30th March,
1908.— ilir. Boi/cc Xot printed.
174b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 22nd January, 1908, sho4ving what
amount has been paid by the Dominion Government for all purposes, from 1st January,
1901, to 1st January, 1908, to the following papers: Alberta Star, Cardslon : Lethbridy
Herald, Macleod Advance, Nanton Neus, The Frank Paper. Presented 30th Jfarch,
1908.— 3/r. Herron Not printed.
175. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated loth January, 1908, showing ^the
various services on which Mr. Shepley, K.C., has been engaged by the Government
since 1896, and the amount that has been paid him for salary and expenses for each.
Presented 30th March, 19.58.— Mr. f osier Not printed.
176. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 190S, for a copy of
all orders in council, letters, telegrams, correspondence and papers of every description
and nature relating to the appointment of the Hon. Arthur Drysdale as justice of the
Supreme Court of No^a Scotia, and especially all such documents as relate to the date
of his acceptance of said appointment or the date of his declaration of intention to
accept the same. President 30th March, 1908.— Mr. Taylor Not printed.
177. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, showing how
much has been paid to C. Boone or the Boone Company, since 1896, and the amount
paid for work in each year at each point where same was performed by said party,
firm or company. Presented 30th March, 1908.— Mr. BenneU Not printed.
41
T Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papere. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLIOIE 19— Continued.
178. Maps and plans in connection with the ilontreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Canal.
Presented 30th March, 1908, by Hon. W. Pugsley See 178b.
178a. Further maps and plans in connection with the Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay
Canal. Presented 13th May, 190S, by Hon. W. Pngsley See 17Sb.
178b. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th July, 1908. Report of the
engineer on the Georgian Bay Ship Canal, together with estimates, plans, &c., illus-
Iraling the project in its main features. Presented 6th July, 1908. — Hon. W. Pugsley.
Printed jor both distribution and sessional papers.
179. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 12th February, 1908, for a copy of: 1. The
number of convicts under the age of twenty, and their respective nationalities. 2. The
number of convicts from the age of twenty and upwards, and their nationalities, in
each of the penitentiaries under Dominion control, for the years 1903, 1904, 1905. 1906
and 1U07. Presented 31st March, 1908.— i/on. Mr. Comeau Not printed.
180. Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 18th February, 1908, showing with respect
to the two routes of the Transcontinental Railway that were surveyed between Grand
Falls and Chipman, in the province of New Brunswick, the estimated cost of each of
the lines, that is to say : 1. The " Back Route," so-called. 2. The St John Valley
route. With the following details: (a) Cubic yards of ordinary excavation and fills;
(b) cubic yards of loose rock; (c) cubic yards of solid rock; (d) cubic yards of concrete;
((?)miles of steel trestle and cost; (/)number and cost of bridges. And with respect to
the " Back Routes," giving the last-mentioned details as regards the following sub-
divisions of that route: 1. Grand Fails and Tobique River. 2. Tobique River and
Intercolonial Railway. 3. Intercolonial Railway and Chipman. And is it the intention
to adopt a pusher grade in the route selected? Presented 31st March, ISOS. — Hon. Mr.
Thompson Not printed.
181. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th February, 1907, for a copy of
all letters, accounts, vouchers, cheques, correspondence and documents relating to any
amount paid to Mr. R. T. Mcllreith, barrister, of Halifax, for legal services, by the
Government of Canada, during each of the fiscal years ending, respectively, SOtn day
of June, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905 and 1906. Also relating to all amounts similarly paid to
any legal agent or representative of the Government at Halifax during each of the
fiscal years ending respectively, 30th June, 1891, 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1896 and 1897.
Pre.eented 1st April, 1908.— Mr. Crocket Not printed.
181a. Supplementary return to No. 181. Presented 3rd April, 1908 Not printed.
182. Copy of order in council relative to the appointment of the Honourable Walter Cassels,
a commissioner to investigate and report upon certain statements contained in the
Report of the Civil Service Commission, reflecting upon the integrity of the officials of
the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 2nd April, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid
Laurier Not printed.
I82a. Correspondence between Sir Wilfrid Laurier and the Honourable Mr. Justice ( assels
on the subject of the appointment of the latter to investigate and report upon certain
statements contained in the Report of the Ci>il Service Commission, reflecting on the
integrity of the officials of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 7th
.'\pril, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed.
182b. Correspondence between the Honourable Mr. Aylesworth and the Honourable Mr.
.Iiistice Cassels on the subject of the appointment of the latter to investigate iind report
upon certain statements contained in the Report of the Civil Service Commission,
reflecting on the integrity of the officials of the Department of Marine and Fisheries.
Presented 19th April, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed.
182f. Letter of instructions from the Minister of Justice to George H. Watson, Esq., K.C ,
respecting the appointment of the latter as counsel to act with Honourable Mr. Justice
Cassels in the investigation upon certain statements contained in the Report of the
42
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
Civil Service Commission, reflecting on the integrity of the officials of the Department
of Marine and Fisheries. Presented 1st May, 1908, by Hon. A. B. Aylesworth.
Not printed.
182d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15th January, 1908, showing all
commissions of inquiry appointed between 1896 and 1908, the dates of appointment
thereof, the names of the commissioners appointed and the secretary and counsel, or
others appointed to assist them, the purpose or object of each such commission, Ihe
date of report of each such commission, what legislation, if any, has been enacted in
consequence of such commissions and reports, the cost of each such commission, includ
ing salaries, travelling expenses, witness fees, fees of counsel, and other assistants, and
for printing, distinguishing each separately. Presented 5th May, 1908.— Mr. Porter.
Not printed.
.183. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th December, 1907, showing the
various Marconi stations established by the Government, their location, the cost of
construction and maintenance of each, the messages sent by each, the rate of tolls and
the receipts, and all contracts, reports, papers and correspondence, in connection there-
^vith. Presented 3rd April, 1908.— Mr. Foster Not printed
183a. Supplementary Return to No. 183. Presented 11th May, 1908 Not printed.
184. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1908, showing what
quality or quantity of goods or supplies have been furnished by the Office Specialty
Company to the Dominion of Canada in every department of the service since 1896, and
the total amount for each year. Presented 3rd April, 1908. — Mr. Bennett,. Not printed.
183. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, for a copy
of a memorial addressed to His Excellency the Governor General, respecting a refer-
ence to the Privy Council in regard to the constitutionality of the Saskatchewan Act
passed by the Legislative Assembly of the province of Saskatchewan on the 23rd May,
1906; together with a copy of all correspondence, telegrams or other communications,
relating thereto, between the Dominion Government or any member thereof, and the
Government of Saskatchewau or any member thereof. Presented 31st March, 1908.—
Mr. Lake Printed for sessional papers.
186. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for a copy of
all reports, plans, specifications, tenders, correspondence, telegrams, and all other
papers, documents, and other information in connection with the construction of the
Hillsboro' Bridge and approaches, including land purchases necessary therefor. Pre-
sented 6th April, 1908. — Mr. Lejurgey Not printed.
187. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th February, 1908, showing what
action, if any, has been taken by this Government since 19th March, 1903, which would
have for its object the removal of the cattle embargo upon Canadian cattle entering
Great Britain. 2. For a copy of a resolution said to have been passed some years ago
by the committee on agriculture, which requested that the Minister of Agriculture of
the Dominion should invite the ministers of the different provinces in the Dominion to
form themselves into a committee, whose object was to lay before the Government pf
Great Britain the importance of removing the cattle embargo. 3. Also showing what
efforts, if any, have been made by the Minister of Agriculture to comply with the
wishes of the above-named committee so expressed; together with a copy of the repori,
if any, of the same to the House, and what efforts have been so made ; with what reason,
if any, the Government Eissigns for not taking action in the matter. Presented 6th
April, 1908.— Mr. /IrHisfrong Not printed.
188. Census and Statistics, Bulletin V., Agricultural Census of Ontario, Quebec and the
.Maritime Provinces, 1907. Pre.<ented 6th April, 190S, by Hon. S. A. Fisher .. iVot printed.
43
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 190S
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
189. Eeturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 190S, lor a copy of
all memorials, documents, telegrams, and correspondence between the government of
ir'rince Edward Island and the Government of Canada since 30th June, 1904, wi)th
respect to the non-fulfilment of the terms of union and for claims for damages in
respect thereof. Presented Tth April, 190S. — Mr. McLean (Queen's) Not printed.
190. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 17th February, 1906, for a copy of
all correspondence, telegrams, reports, memoranda, resolutions, and any other informa-
tion in possession of the Government or any member or official thereof, respecting the
construction of branch railway lines in Prince Edward Island. Presented 13th April,
1908.— Jfr. 3/arfin (Queen's) .Not printed.
191. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th JIarch, 1908, for a copy of
all orders in council, reports, documents, correspondence and papers, from the 1st day
of .lanuary, 1907, to the present time, relating to the passage of United State.*; wai*
ships or training ships through the St. Lawrence canals and Great Lakes, iucludiug
a statement showing the number of United States war ships or training ships which
have passed through the St. Lawrence canals during that perio.l, and a statement of all
such war ships or training ships now on the Great Lakes, and particulars of the
tonnage, horse-power, armament and crew of such war ship or training ship, and of the
naval reserves or other naval forces of the United States Government, or of any State
Government upon the Great Lakes; also all correspondence respecting the proposed
passage of the gunboat Nashville through the St. Lawrence canals and river on her
way to the Great Lakes next summer. Presented 7th April, 1908.— J/r. Taylor.
Not printed.
192. Iveturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, for copies uf
all papers, representations, memorials and correspondence had with the Minister of
rinance or any member of the Government in reference to the proposed action of the
Government through or in conjunction with the banks, to facilitate in a financial way
the movements of the grain from the western provinces of Canada. Presented 7th
.\pril, 1908.— .Vr. Foster Not printed.
193. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated llth December, 1307, showing:
1. How many drill halls have been constructed or are under construction by the Gov-
ernment since 1S9G. 2. In what localities these buildings have been constructed, and the
cost of construction in each case. 3. What military organizations exist in the respective
localities in which these drill halls have been erected, and the numeriv-al strength of
each such military organization. Presented 7th April, 1908.— JUr. Worthington.
Not printed.
194. Rt-tuin to an address of the House of Commons, dated March, 1908, for a copy of all
orders in council and regulations male by the Governor in Council, or prescribed by
the Minister of Customs under the provisions of chapter eleven (11) of the .\cts of
1907, (6 and 7 Edward VII.), relating to materials to he used in Canada far the
construction of bridges or tunnels crossing the boundary between the United States
and Canada, and all similar regulations or legislative or administrative provisions of
the United States Customs Laws relating to such materials. Presented 8th April.
1908.- il/r. Clements Not printed.
195. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 15tb January, 1908, for a comiilete
list of the publications in Canada enjoying the newspaper rate. Presented 8th .Vpril,
1908.— .Ur. Cockshutt iVol jiridtod.
196. Partial Return to an order of the Senate, dated the 17lh March. 1908. for a copy of
the service-roll of the Garrison Artillery Companies of Ottawa and Morrisburg. Ki\ing
names of the militiamen who were on active service, and who weie in bar-acks at I'ort
WcMiiigton, Prescott, during the months of November and nerember. l«6:i. a'ld during
thi- niriiitlis of .Tiiiiuary, February. March. April, May and June. Iffiti; and also a
44
7 Ethv. Vll. List of Sessional Papers. , A. 190S
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Contiiiued.
statement showing what was the daily pay paid to the soldiers of thes^ two corps and
I hat which the militiamen belonging to Company No. 2 of the Ottawa Field Battery
receiyed at the same time, or that which was received by other corps of the Military
District of Ottawa, which were also called out for active serWce. Presented 8th April,
1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry Wot printed.
197. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 16th March, 1908, for a copy of all
orders in council, reports, memoranda, agreements, contracts and other documents and
papers of every kind, nature and description, from the 1st of January, 1900, up to the
present time, relating to or touching the Dolkese or Dokis Indian reserve, or touching
the surrender thereof of the timber thereon, and especially all such documents as
aforesaid as relate to any proposals or arrangements for the surrender of any rights
by the Indians in the said reserve or in the timber thereon, or to the sale or disposal of
the said timber or any part thereof. Presented 9tl: April, 1908. — Mr. Borden (Carlclon).
Wot prill ted.
197«. Supplementary return to No. 197. Presented 2nd July, 1908 Not printed.
197)). Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 190S, for a copy of
all opinions of the Minister of Justice, or Deputy Minister of Justice, or any official of
the Department of Justice, to the Minister of the Interior or any official cf the Depart-
ment of the Interior, with respect to the Metlakatla and Songhees Indian reserves, or
lither of the said reserves, since the 1st day of January, 1906. Presented 22nd April,
i90S.— Mr. Borden (Carleton) Not printed.
197r. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th .\pril, 1908, for a copy of all
petitions, memorials, documents, correspondence and papers touching any matters,
transactions or negotiations between the Department of Indian Affairs and the council
of the Sis Nations reserve, or the chief or chiefs of the said council or the Indian
Rights Association or Warriors' Association, from the 1st day of January, 1906, to the
present time. Presented 18th May, 1908. — Mr. Lake Not printed.
19H. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of
contract and all correspondence in connection with purchase of cement from E. A.
Wallberg, by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, to heighten Heath Point. Pre-
sented 13th April, 1908.— Mr. Staples Not printed.
199. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, showing.:
1. What amount the firm of H. N. Bate & Co has received from each department of
the Government since the year 1896 for supplies, giving the amount paid each year
separately. 2. What amount the firm of W. C. Edwards & Co. has received from each
department of the Government since the year 1896 for supplies, giving the amount paid
nach year separately. Presented 13th April, 1908. — Mr. Taylor Not' printed.
200. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, for a copy of all
petitions, letters and applications, by or on behalf of " La Societe Canadienne d'immi-
gration et de placement," for assistance from the Government, and the ;.nswer by the
Government or its officials to the same. Presented 13th April, 1908. — Mr. Monk.
Not printed
201. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy, as it
appeared printed in the Yukon World and Ojficial Gazette for nine months of the finan-
cial year 1906-7, of a synopsis of mining regulations referred to in the Auditoi
General's Report, 1906-7, at page L — 37, and also setting forth the number of times thr-
said advertisement appeared in the newspapers referred to in the time stated. Pre-
sented 13th April, 1908. — Mr. Lennox Not printed
202. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 26th February, 1908, for a copy of
all correspondence, leases or other papers in connection with the leasing or proposed
leasing of Kananaski Falls, on the Bow riv&r. A copy of all correspondence and other
45
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOITTME Id— Continued.
papers in connection with the selling or otherwise disposing of 1,000 acros or any lands
to the Calgary Power and Transmission Company (Limited). A statement showing an
estimate of about the nnmber of acres and territory owned by the Stony Indiaoi
Keserve, held in trust for the Indians, the said statement showing the quantity on each
side of Bow river. Presented 13th April, 1908. — Mr. Rcid (Grenville) Not printed.
Z03. Keturn to an address of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908. for a copy of
all correspondence, telegrams, memoranda and reports, between the Government and
its oflScers and solicitors and the provincial or territorial governments, in regard to
the cases taken to test the liability for taxation of the Canadian Pacific Railway
Company in the cases Eural Municipality of North Cypress vs. Canadian Pacific
Railway; Rural Municipality of Argyle vs. Canadian Pacific Railway; Springdale
School District vs. Canadian Pacific Railway: together with copies of all judgments of
the courts before whom the cases were tried, and of the refusal of the .Tudicial Com-
mittee of the Privy Council of the application for leave to appeal to that court. Pre-
sented 21st April, 1908.— Mr. Lafce Not printed.
204. Copy of a Report of the Privy Council approved by His Excellency the Administrator
on the 21st April, 1908, on a memorandum dated 20th April, 1908, from the Minister of
Public Works, recommending that the order in council of the 30th March, 1908,.
providing for the continuation of certain contracts therein mentioned for dredging at
various places in the provinces of Ontario and Nova Scotia be cancelled. Presented
23rd April, 1908, by Hon. W. Pugsley Not printed.
205. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 27th April, 1908, showing claims
for. damages to property, or personal injury or loss or damage on the Intercolonial
Railway, which have been settled since 1st January, 1908; nature of the claims so
settled; amount of damage claimed in each case; the settlements arrived at, and the
names of the persons so settled with. Presented 27th April, 1908. — Hon. G. P. Graham.
Not printed.
205a. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of the-
Report of the Deputy Minister of Railways and Canals, and the Deputy Minister of
Maiir.e and fisheries in reference to their meeting with delegates of the Boards of
Trade of Prince Edward Island at Charlottetown in June last, to take into considera-
tion the removal of the heavy freight and passenger rates on the Prince Edward Islana
Railway and the Intercolonial Railway, and on freight and passenger rates to and
from Prince Edward Island; also all correspondence, telegrams, &c., in possession of
the Government or any member or official relating thereto, and other ijuestions dis-
cussed at said meeting. Presented 27th April, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's). Not printed.
20Sb. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 190S, for a copy of
all letters, telegrams and other documents relating to an accident which happened at
JIulgrave, Nova Scotia, on the 3rd of December last, whreby Captain J.imes l''orrestall
lost his life; and also the evidence taken at the investigation subsi-quently held by
officers of the department and the report made thereon. Pre.sented 7th .May, 1908.—
Mr. Sinclair Not printed.
205c. Return to an order of tlie House of Commons, datea 6tli April, 1908, showing the
number of trains, both freight and passengtr, on the Intercolonial Railway breaking
down or detained from defects in engines during the months of October, November and
December, 1907. and the causes of such defects. Presented 18th May, 1908.--il/r. Reid
(Grenville) Notpiintvd.
205d. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing tlio
n\imber of locomotives on the Intercolonial Railway out of service on the 31st Derenibi'i-,
1907, and the dale of purchase of each engine out of ser\ice, from whom puroluisrd,
type of engine, passenger or freight, haulage capacity, when in efficient state of repair,
when put out of service, and when last used. Presented 18th May, 1908. — Mr. tleid
(Grenville) Nut printed.
4a
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
205e. Keturn to an order of the House oi Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing th^
number of tons of new steel rails lying along the line of the Intercolonial Railway
unused, date when purchased, if required, and when to be used. Presented 18th May,
1908.— J/r. Beid (Grenvillc) Not printed.
205/. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, showing the
number of locomotives in servic? on the Intercolonial Railway on the several Sundays
in the months of October, November and December, 1907, hauling freight trains.
Presented 18th Way, 1908.— Mr. Reid (Grenvillc}.. Not printed.
205g. Rtturn to an order of the Senate, dated the 12th May, 1908, for a copy of all the corres-
pondence exchanged in 1906 and 1907, between Mr. L. C. A. Casgrain, of Nicolet, and
Messrs. J. Butler, Deputy Minister of Railway and Canals, and T. C. Burpee, engineer,
or any other persons in the Department of Railways and Canals, on the subject of the
fences along the line of the Intercolonial Railway across the county of Nicolet and the
neighbouring counties. Presented 21st May, 1908. — Hon. Mr. Landry Not printed.
205/t. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th June, 1908, for copies of all
accounts, vouchers, correspondence and other papers relating to a payment of $8,399.68
to K. Falconer in connection with New Accounting System on Government Railways, as
set out at Page W— 192, Report Auditor General, 1906. Presented 10th June, 1908.—
Hon. G. P. Graham Not printed.
205i. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence, telegrams, reports and lecommendations in possession of the Govern-
ment, or any member or official thereof, with respect to improved railway service on
the Belfast and Murray Harbour Branch Railway. Presented 10th June, 1908.-
Mr. Idartin (Queen's J Not printed.
206. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 18th March, 1908, for a copy of
all papers necessary to bring the information contained in Sessional Paper No. 90, 1907,
up to date. (Rubins Irrigation Conipany.) Presented 28th April, 1908. — Mr. irnes.
Not printed.
207. Certified copies of Reports of the Committee of the Privy Council, dated 30th March,
1908, and Ifith April, 1908, approved by His Excellency the .idministrator, and of the
28th April, 1908, approved by His Excellency the Govei-nor General, on certain estimates
of expenses in connection with the celebration of the founding of Quebec by Samuel de
Champlain, submitted by the National Battlefields Commission for the sanction and
approval of the Governor General in Council. Presented 30th April, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid
Laurier Printed for sessional papers.
208. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of all cor-
respondence, reports, telegrams, resolutions, petitions, &c., in possession of the Govern-
ment or any member or official thereof, respecting the demand of the Charlottetown
Board of Trade or any person in Prince Edward Island, for federal legislation to give
sailing vessels and steamers equal rights in their proper loading turns at the coal ports
in Nova Scotia and Cape Breton. Presented 5th May, 1908. — Mr. Martin (Queen's).
Not printed.
209. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 10th April, 1908, showing: 1. The number of
automatic low pressure acetylene gas buoys which have been purchased by the Govern-
ment during the years 1904-5-6-7 from the International Marine Signal Company, of
Ottawa, giving each year separate, and the prices paid for the same. 2. Whether ten-
ders were called for their supply ; if so how many tenders were received, from whom,
and the prices at which they were offered. 3. How many other gas buoys, beacons,
whistling buoys and light appliances were purchased from the same coiui>any during
the same period of time, the prices paid for the same ; whether any tenders were called
for; if so, the names of the tenderers and the prices asked. 4. The quantity of the
carbide purchased by the Government during the years 1903-4-5-6-7, the price paid, from
47
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papei-s. A. 1903
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
wliom purchased and wlietbei- by tender or otherwise. Presented 6th May, 190S. — Hon.
Sir Mackenzie Bouell Not printed.
210. Eeturn to an address of the Senate, dated 30th January, 1908, showing: 1. lias Mr.
Michel Simeon Delisle, of the parish of Portneuf, in the county of Portaeuf, merchant,
and, since 1900, member of the House of Commons, at any time after the generat
elections of 1896, received any sum of money whatsoever coming from the federal
treasury. 2. If so, when, how much, and for what object at each time. Presented 6th
May, 1908.— Hon. Mr. Landri/ Not printed.
211. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th May, 1908, for s. copy of the
report made by Mr. Victor Gaudet as a result of the investigation held by him into
charges preferred against E. Roy, foreman of works, under the Department of
Marine and Fisheries; and of the evidence in connection therewith. Presented 11th
May, 1908.— Hon. X. P. Brodeur Not printed.
212. I'oturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 9th March, 1908, for a copy of all
correspondence, telegrams, reports, and all other information, not already brought
down, in possession of the Government or any member or official thereof, in reference to
winter communication, and the construction of a tunnel between Prince Edward Island
and the mainland of Canada. Presented 2nd July, 190S.— .Vr. Martin (Queen's).
Not printed.
213. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 190S, for a copy of
all tenders, contracts, correspondence, plans, specifications, certificates, schedules, and
all other papers and documents, including settlement, agreements, claims or adjust-
ments thereof, relating to the contract of Messieurs Murray & Cleveland to do the work
at the eastern gap at Toronto Harbour, which work was completed in or about the
year 1896. Presented 14th May, 1908.— 3fr. Macdonell Not printed.
214. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th April, 1908, for a copy of all
letters, telegrams, memoranda and correspondence of every kind between the Minister
of Marine and Fisheries, or any ofiicer of his department, and any person or persons,
respecting the purchase of supplies for the Department of Marine and Fisheries at
Quebec, St. John, New Brunswick and Halifax, during the years 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895
and 1896. Presented 14th May, 1908.— Mr. Johnston A'ot printed.
215. Copy of a treaty between Great Britain and the United States concerning the fisheries
in waters contiguous to the Dominion of Canada and the Ignited States, signed at
Washington on April 11, 1908. Presented 19th May, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Printed for both distribution and sessional papers
21Sa. Correspondence, orders in council and despatches in connection witli the negotiation
of a treaty between Great Britain and the United States concerning the fislieries in
waters contiguous to the Dominion of Canada and the United States. Presented 4th
June, 1908, by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. ..Priii/cd for both distribution and sessional papers.
216. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 29th January, 1908, showing the
total expenditure by the Department of Public Works in Prince Edward Island over
the following periods: 1873 to 1S78; 1878 to 1896; 1896 to 1907; and tlie total expenditure
by the Public Works Department in Prince county over periods 1873 to 1878; 1878 to
1882; 1882 to 1887; 188" to 1S91 ; 1891 to 1896; 1898 to 1900; IflOO to 1907, respectively. And
the expenditures by the Public Works Department in the counties of Queen's and
King's for the years and the pi>riods of years above-mentioned. .\lso the total expendi-
tures in said province by the Post Office Department, the Department of Railways and
Canals, and the Department of Slilitia and Defence. .\nd further, the total expendi-
tures by the Department of JIarine and Fisheries, including the development, propaga-
tion and preservation of the fisheries, and in the maintenance of winter communication
across the Northumberland Straits, for the years and periods of years above referred to.
Presented 26lh May, 1908.— Mr. Lefurgey .Voi printed.
48
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
217. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th December, 1907, for a copy of
all correspondence, contracts and appointments of overseers in respect to Port Burwell
Harbour, in the county of Elgin, Ontario, since 1st January, 1907; also a return
showing pay-sheets, amount of nex material used, from whom purchased, of all day or
contract work on the said harbour, giving names of overseers and by whom appointed
lor the same. Presented 26th May, 1908. — Mr. Marshall Not printed.
218. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 6th May, 1908, showing the names
of all persons who furnished supplies to the steamer Petrel between the 31st March,
1907, and 30th April, 1908, the amount paid to each such person, and the date of each
payment. Presented 4th June, 1908. — Mr. Chisholm (Huron) Not printed.
219. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 19th February, 1908, (a) showing
the revenue contributed by the pro\-ince of British Columbia for each and every year
from 1S72-3 to 1905, inclusive, under the following heads: 1. Customs. 2. Chinese
immigration. 3. Inland Revenue, Excise, Weights and Measures, Gas Inspection,
Electric Light Inspection, Methylated Spirits, Sundries. 4. Post Offices. 5. Public
Works, Telegraphs, Esquimalt Graving Dock, Casual. 6. E.Kperimental Farm. 7.
Penitentiary. 8. Marine and Fisheries, Sick Mariners' Fund, Steamboat Inspection,
e.\amination of Masters and Mates, Casual and Harbours, Fisheries. 9. Superannua-
tion. 10. Dominion Lands and Timber. 11. Vancouver Assay Office. 12. Miscellaneous.
' 13. Public Debt. 11. Any other source, .ind (b)showing expenditure by the Dominion
of Canada on account of the province of British Columbia, for each and every year
from 1872-3 to 1905, inclusive, under the following heads : 1. Public Debt. 2. Charges
of Management. 3. Lieutenant Governor. 1. Administration of Justice, Judges, 4c.
5. Penitentiary. 6. Experimental Farm. 7. Quarantine. 8. Immigration. 9. Pensions,
&c. 10. Militia. 11. Public Works, Buildings, Harbours and Rivers, Dredging. 12.
Telegraphs, Agency. 13. Mail subsidy. 14. Marine and Fisheries, Dominion Steamers,
Lighthouses, Meteorological Marine Hospital, Steamboat Inspection, Miscellaneous,
Fisheries, Fisheries Inspection, Hatcheries. 15. Indians. 16. Subsidies. 17. Dominion
Lands. 18. Customs. 19. Inland Revenue, Excise, Weights and Measures, Gas and
Electric Light. 20. Esquimalt Dry Dock. 21. Post Office. 22. Chinese Immigration.
23. Defences, Esquimalt. 24. Chinese Immigration Inquiry. 25. Bounty on Minerals.
26. Miscellaneous. 27. Vancouver Assay Office. 28. Railway Subsidies. 29. Any other
source. Presented 10th July, 1908.— .If r. Soss (Yale-Cariboo). .Printed for distribution.
220. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 3rd February, 1908, showing during
the last ten years how much money has been expended by years by this Government
for printing and lithographing done outside of Canada; and for what reason such
work was done out of Canada. Presented 4tli June, 1908. — Mr. Macdonell. .Not printed.
221. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 5th June, 1908, for a
copy of the evidence taken in the Montcalm-Milwaukee collision case, and a copy of the
decision of the wreck commissioner and of the assessors on 'the collision. Presented
5th June, 1908.— Hon. L. P. Brodeur ..Not printed.
222. Keturn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 190S, for the pro-
duction of the following: 1. A copy of the appointment of Doctor Edmond Savard, of
Chicoutimi, as paymaster for the county of Chicoutimi. 2. A copy of the instructions
given to him as such regarding the validity of the receipts. 3. A copy of all corres-
pondence that took place between Doctor Edmond Savard and the Department of
Public Works of Canada in regard to the St. Fulgence pier, in the county of Chicou-
timi. 4. A copy of all correopondence that took place between the Auditor General and
the Department of Public Works regarding the said Doctor Edmond Savard, pay-
master, concerning the St. Fulgence pier. 5. A copy of all the pay lists in connection
with the said St. Fulgence pier during the jieriod of time that the said Doctor Savard
49
7461—4
7 Edw. Vn. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 19— Continued.
was paymaster. 6. A copy of all the pay lists for works done to the wharfs of Chicou-
timi and St. Alexis during the time that the said Doctor Savard was paymaster.
Presented 9th June, 1908. — Mr. Bergeron Not printed.
223. Eetarn to an order of the House of Commons, dated 11th March, 1908, showing: 1. All
lands or interests in lands granted by the Government to the Temperance Colonization
Society, together with the dates of such grants, description of lands granted,
consideration paid, or terms upon which such lands were granted, and all
other particulars of sale. 2. Showing the terms of settlement or otherwise upon
wliich such lands were granted, or held by the Society, and the conditions or
regulations in force from time to time regarding such grants, and the holding
thereof respectively. 3. Showing wherein or in what respect and with respect to what
lands, the said Society lived up to, and complied with such conditions and regulation.^,
and wherein the Society failed to comply tlierewith. i. Showing what lands, if any,
have been reclaimed by the oGvernment from the Society for such non-compliance
with such terms and conditions, or for any other cause or reason. 5. Showing what
lands the said Society still hold, as far as known. 6. Showing whether the said
Society is still in existence, and if so, who compose the same as far as known. 7. Also
for a copy of all correspondence, reports, memoranda, orders in council, or other docu-
ments in possession of the Government, relating to the said Society or the lands
granted thereto. Presented 10th June, 1908. — Mr. Macdonell Not printed.
224. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing the
number of men and the quantity of supplies, material and mails transported D\n
Government account over the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway, the
Calgary and Edmonton Railway, the Lake Manitoba Railway and Canal Company, and
the Winnipeg Great Northern Railway, with the cost of same at current transport
rates, since the beginning of the contract arrangements made with each, up to date.
Presented 17th June, 1908.— Mr. foster Not printed.
225. Supplementary Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated I7th December,
1906, for: 1. A copy of all leases and agreements between the Government, repre-
sented by the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and (o) the Athabasca Fish Com-
pany (J. K. McKenzie, Selkirk, Manitoba), or their assigns, Messrs. Butterfield & Dee;
(b) A. McNee, Windsor, Ontario ; (e) the British American Fish Cori>oratiou, of
Montreal and Selkirk (P. H. Markey). 2. A copy of all reports, correspondence or
documents, relating to or touching upon the application for securing of, transfer of,
or enjoyment of any privileges under said leases. 3. .4 statement of all rentaje,
bonuses, or payments to the Government in respect of such leases to date. i. All
information in the possession of or procurable by the Government with reference to
(a) the number of tugs, boats and men employed; (b) the quantity and value of nets
used; (c) the number and value of fish taken; (d) the quantity of fish exported under
each of said leases during the last period of twelve months, for which such figures are
available. Presented 26th June, 1908.— Mr. /I mw Not printed.
*26. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a copy of all
contracts, papers and otlier documents between the Government or the Department of
Militia and Defence, or ni'.v mcnibor thereof, or any one acting for or ou its behalf, and
the Suthorlund Rifle Sight Company, or any one acting for or ou its behalf, relating to
the purchase of rifle eights or any other materials. Presented 26th June, IMS- ill r.
Worthingion Not printed.
S27. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 18th June, 1908, showing the tonnage entered
at St. John, N.B., and Halifax, N.S., for the years 1905. 1906 and 190". Also the value
of imports for the same years at St. John, N.B., and Halifax, N.S., and also the value
of exports for same year from St. John. N.B., and Halifax, N.S. Presented 7th July,
1908.— if on. Mr. Domvtlle Not printed.
50
7 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTTME 19— Continued.
228. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 13th Jnly, 1908, for a copy of a
memorandum by Major General P. H. N. Lake, C.B., C.M.Q., Inspector General, upon
that portion of the Report of the Civil Service Commiesioners, 1908, which deals with
the Military Administration of the Militia. Presented ISth July, 1908. — Sir Frederick
Borden Printed jor distribution.
229. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated ISth January, 1908, showing the
population of each town, village or other place in Canada, in which any public building
has been erected at the expense of Canada since 1st January, 1897. or for a (public
building in which any public money has been voted, expended or appropriated since
that date, together with a statement of the amount voted, expended or appropriated
in each case, the total cost of each such building, the estimated total cost of any such
building not yet completed, the purpose of each such building in each instance, the cost
of the annual maintenance and upkeep thereof; and so that the said statement shall
show the information aforesaid by division of the said towns, villages or other places
in the following classes : Those having a population not exceeding 2,000, 3,000, 4,009,
5,000, 6,000, 7,000, 8,000, 9,000, 10,000; also giving the names of all other towns and vil-
lages in Canada of each of the said classes in which no such public buildings have been
erected up to the present time. Presented 13th July, 1908 —Afi. Borden (Carleton).
Not printed.
230. Return to an address of the Senate, dated 2nd July, 1908, shewing: 1. The names of
all senators and members of the House of Commons who have been appointed to office
of emolument during the years 1896-7-8-9, 1900-1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and 8. 2. The name of the
oflfice to which each senator and member was appointed. 3. The salary atiached to each
office. Presented 14th July, 1908.— ffon, Mr. Landry Not printed.
231. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated lOlh February, 1908, for a copy of
all petitions, letters, correspondence, reports, documents, papers, and other informa-
tion in relation to the granting of a license in the year 1905 to E. H. McLennan and G.
A. Redmond, both of River John, Nova Scotia, for the erection of a factory and to fish
lobsters, with the date of such license. Presented 16th July, 1908. — Jfr. McLean
(Queen's) Not printed.
231a. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 23rd March, 1908, for a copy
of all correspondence, telegrams, petitions, orders in council, applications for licenaes,
in possession of the Government or any member or official thereof, respecting the
granting of lobster fishing and packing licenses in Prince Edward Island for the years
1904, 1905, 1906 and 1907-8, and the report of the inspectors thereon. Presented 18th
^\l\y. 190S.— Mr. Martin (Queen's) Not pt >nU,i.
232. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 16th December, 1907, showing:
The amounts paid by the various departments of the Government since July, 1S96, for
sites for the following purposes, respectively: (a) court houses; (b) Royal Northwest
Mounted Police purposes; (c) jails or penitentiaries; (d) armouries; (e) post offices; (f)
Daminion lands office; (g) land titles offices; (ft) customs offices; (i) inland revenue; 0)
weights and measures; {k) other Dominion Government purposes, in the following
viUages, towns or cities, respectively: Winnipeg, Brandon, Regina, Moosejaw, Medicine
Hat, Lethbridge, Calgary, Macleod, Cardston, Pincher Creek, Red Deer, Lacombe,
Wetaskinin, Edmonton, Battleford, Prince Albert, Saskatoon, Yorkton and Dauphin.
Presented 17th July, 1908.— -Mr. McCarthy (Calgary) Not printed
233. Return to an address of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1908, for a copy of
specifications, tenders, contracts, orders in council, extension or renewal of contracts
in connection with Quebec Harbour improvements in 1903, and subsequently; and of
all letters, correspondence and memoranda in connection therewith ; and also a state-
ment of the sums of money paid on account of the work in and subsequent to 1903.
Presented 17th July, 1908.— Mr. Lennox Not printed.
51
T Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1908
CONTENTS OF VOLTIME 19— Concluded.
234. Copy of a telegram from the Canadian Manufacturers' Association relative to the
Tvoollen industries, and Sir Wilfrid Laurier's reph- thereto. Presented 18th July, 190S,
by Sir Wilfrid Laurier Not printed.
234(1. Correspondence, &c., from the Canadian Manufacturers' Association relating to the
woollen industries in Canada. Presented 20th July, 190S. by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Not printed.
235. Return to an order of the Senate, dated 6th J'ay, 1908, calling for copies of all corres-
pondence with the Department of Inland Revenue and officers, referring to analysis of
fertilizers and for the decision of the department ou questions raised during jthe
yeais 1906, 1907 and 1908. to date. Presented 18th July, 1908.— ffon. Mr. Domville.
Not printed.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE
1907
HELD AT THE COLONIAL OFFICE, DOWNING STREET,
LONDON, FROM THE 15th APRIL TO
THE 14th may, 1907
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Being Sessional Paper No. 58 of the Parliament of Canada. Session 1007-8
PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT
OTTAWA
PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE RINGS MOST
EXCELLENT MAJESTY
1908
[No. 58, 1908]
7-8 EDWARD VII.
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
A. 1908
CONTENTS
Page.
Resolutions v.
DATES OF MEETINGS.
First Day, April 15 1
Second " " 17 23
Third ■• " 18 50
lourth " " 20 86
Fifth " " 23 123
Sixth ■' " 25 151
Seventh " " 26 203
Eighth " " 30 232
Ninth •• May 1 2.58
Tenth " " 2 301
Eleventh " " 6 364
Twelfth " " 7 407
Thirteenth " " 8 450
Fourteenth " " 9 513
Fifteenth " " U 5(1
LIST OF SUBJECTS, ETC.
Arrangement of Business 13
British Interests in the Pacific 554
Carriage of British Goods in British Ships 442
Coastwise Trade 454
Commercial Treaty Question 490
Copyright 495
Decimal System 197
Double Payment of Income Tax 188, 200, 550
Emigration 155
Future Constitution of the Conference 53, 88
General Botha's Farewell .- 554
I mperial Cable Communication 539
Imperial Court of Appeal 204
Imperial Surtax on Foreign Imports 360,451,514
Inaugural Addresses 1
Interchange of Permanent Staff 618
Mail Service to Australia and New Zealand via Canada 572
Military Defence 94, 124
Naturalizo tion 182, 540
Iv COLOA'IAL CONFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
LIST OF SUBJECTS, ETC.— Continued.
Page.
Xaval Defence 128, 475, c^^l
Newfoundland Fishery 593
Preferential Trade 233, 259, 303, 365, 408, 443
Profits on Silver Coinage 195, 552
Proposed Imperial Council '. 25
Reciprocity as to Barristers 497
Keciprocity as to Surveyors 508
Revision of Commercial Treaties 473
Stamp Charges on Colonial Bonds "■. 199
Thanks to the Earl of Elgin 628
Trade Statistics 496
Uniformity of Company Law 496
Uniformity of Patent Laws 490
Universal Penny Postage 535
Wireless Telegraphy Convention 608
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58 A. 1908
RESOLUTIONS.
Tlio following Et'solutiuus were unanimously agreed to bj' the
Conference, except where otherwise stated: —
COiNSTITUTIO-N OF TIIIO ImPEUI.VL CoXFEREiNl.li.
TluU it will be to the advantage of the Empire if a Conference,
to be called the Imperial Conference, is held every four years, at
which questions of common interest nuiy be discussed and considered
as between His Majesty's Government and His Govc-ruments of the
self-governing Dominions beyond the seas. The Prime Minister of
the United Kingdom will be ex officio President, and the Prime Min-
isters of the self-governing Dominions ex officio members, of the
Conference. The Secretary of State for the Colonies will be an ex
officio member of the Conference and will take a chair in the absence
of the President. He will arrange for such Imperial Conferences
after communication with the Prime Ministers of the respective
Dominions.
Such other Ministers as the respective Governments may appoint
will also be members of the Conference — it being understood that,
except by special permission of the Conference, each discussion will
be conducted by not more than two representatives from each Gov-
ernment, and that each Government will have only one vote.
That it is desirable to establish a system by which the several
Governments represented shall be kept informed during the periods
between the Conferences in regard to matters which have been or
may bo sub.ieets for discussion, by means of a permanent secretarial
staff, charged, under the direction of the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, with the duty of obtaining information for the use of the
Conference, of attending to its resolutions, and of conducting cor-
respondence on matters relating to its affairs.
That upon matters of importance requiring consultation between
two or more Governments which cannot conveniently be postponed
imtil the next Conference, or involving subjects of a minor character
or such as call for detailed consideration, subsidiary Conferences
should be held between representatives of the Governments concerned
specially chosen for the purpose.
TI.
Cor.oNi.\L Representation ox the Committee of Imperial Defence.
That the Colonies be authorized to refer to the Committee of
Imperial Defence, through the Secretary of State, for advice any
local questions in regard to which expert assistance is deemed de-
sirable.
That whenever so desired, a representative of the Colony which
may wish f-^r advice shotild be summoned to attend as a member cSf
the Committee during the discussion of the questions raised.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
III
General Staff fob the Service of the Empire.
That this Loui'ereiice welcomes and cordially approves the exposi-
tioii of geueral ijriiiciples embodied in the statement of the Secretary
of State for War, and, without wishing to commit any of the Gov-
ernments represented, recognises and affirms the need of developing
for the service of the Empire a General Stafi, selected from the forces
of the Empire as a whole, which shall study military science in all
its branches, shall collect and disseminate to the various Govern-
ments military information and intelligence, shall undertake the
preparation of schemes of defence on a common principle, and, with-
out in the least interfering in questions connected with command
and administration, shall, at the request of the respective Govern-
ments, advise as to the training, education, and war organisation
of the military forces of the Crown in every part of the Empire.
TV. ■
Emigratiov.
That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to proceed to
British Colonies rather than foreign countries.
That the Imperial Government be requested to co-operate with
any Colonies desiring immigrants in assisting suitable persons to
emigrate.
V.
Judicial Appeals.
The Conference agreed to the following finding: — •
The Resolution of the Commonwealth of Australia, ' That it is
desirable to establish an Imperial Court of Appeal,' was submitted
and fullj' discussed.
The Resolution submitted by the Government of Cape Colony
was accepted, amended as follows: —
This Conference, recognising the importance to all parts of the
Empire of the appellate jurisdiction of His Majesty the King
in Council, desires to place upon record its opinion —
(1) That in the interests of His Majesty's subjects beyond
the seas it is expedient that the practice and procedure of the
Right Honourable the Lords of the Judicial Committee of the
Privy Council be definitely laid down in the form of a code
of rules and regulations.
(2) That in the codification of the rule^ regard should be
liad to the necessity for the removal of anachronisms and an-
omalies, the possibility of the curtailment of expense, and
the desirability of the establishment of courses of procedure
which would minimise delays.
('■)) That, with a view to the extension of uniform rights
of appeal to all Colonial subjects of His ^fajest.y, the various
Orders in Council, instructions to Governors, charters of
justice, ordinances, and proclamations upon the subject of the
appellate jurisdiction of the Sovereign, should be taken into
consideration for the purpose of determining the desirability
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 tH
SESSIONAL PAPER -No. 58
of equalising the conditions which gave right of appeal to
Ilis Majesty.
(4) That much uncertainty, expense, and delay would be
avoided if some portion of His ilajesty's prerogative to grant
special leave to appeal in cases where there exists no right
of appeal were exercised under definite rules and restrictions.
The following Resolutions, presented to the Conference by General
Botha and supported by the representatives of Cape Colony and
Natal, were accepted: —
• (1) That when a Court of Appeal lias been established for
any group of Colonies geographically connected, whether
federated or not, to which appeals lie from the decisions of
the Supreme Courts of such Colonies, it shall be competent for
the Legislature of each such Colony to abolish any existing
right of appeal from its Supreme Court to the Judicial Com-
mittee of the Privy Council.
(2") That the decisions of such Court of Appeal shall be
final, but leave to appeal from such decisions may be granted
by the said Court in certain eases prescribed by the statute
under which it is established.
(3) That the right of any person to apply to the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council for leave to appeal to it from
the decision of such Appeal Court shall not be curtailed.
VI.
Preferential Trade.
{The following Besolitiions of the Conference of 1902 were re-
affirmed hy the Memhers of the Conference, with the exception of
His Majesty's Government, who was unable to gvve its assent, so far
as the United Kingdom rvas concerned, to a reaffirmation of the
Resolutions in so far as they imply that it is necessary or expedient
to alter the fiscal system of the United Kingdom.]
1. That this Conference recognizes that the principle of prefer-
ential trade between the United Kingdom and His Majesty's
Dominions beyond the seas would stimulate and facilitate mutual
commercial intercourse, and would, by promoting the development of
the resources and industries of the several parts, stren=^hen the
Empire.
2. That this Conference recognizes that, in the present circum-
stances of the Colonies, it is not practicable to adopt a general system
of Free Trade as between the Mother Country and the British
Dominions beyond the seas.
3. That with a view, however, to promoting the increase of trade
within the Empire, it is desirable that those Colonies which have
not already adopted such a policy should, as far as their circum-
stances permit, give substantial preferential treatment to the pro-
ducts and manufactures of the United Kingdom.
4. That the Prime Ministers of the Colonies respectfully urge on
His Majesty's Government the expediency of granting in the United
Kingdom preferential treatment to the products and manufactures of
'■"1 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1SC8
the Colonies, either by exemption from or reduction of duties now or
hereafter imposed.
5. That the Prime Ministers present at the Conference undertake
to submit to their respective Governments, at the earliest opportunity,
the principle of the resolution, and to request them to take such
measures as may be necessary to give effect to it.
VII.
COMMERCUL EeLATIONS.
That, without prejudice to the Resolutions already accepted or
the reservation of His Majesty's Government, this Conference, recog-
nising the importance of promoting greater freedom and fuller
development of commercial intercourse within the Empire, believes
that these objects may be best secured hy leaving to each part of the
Empire liberty of action in selecting the most suitable means for
attaining them, having regard to its own special conditions and re-
quirements, and that every effort should be made to bring about
co-operation in matters of mutual interest.
VIII.
Commercial Eklatioxs axd British SHiPpmo.
That it is advisable, in the interests both of the United Kingdom
and His ^Majesty's Dominions beyond the seas, that efforts in favour
of British manufactured goods and British shipping should be sup-
ported as far as is practicable.
IX.
Preferential Trade.
[The following Resoluiion was agreed to hii the memhem of the
Conference, with the exception of Sir Witfrid Laurier, who was
absent, and whose vote was not recorded, of General Botha, who did
not support it, and of the representatives of His Majesty's Oovem-
ment, who dissented.}
That while aftirniing the Kcsolution of 1'.)02, this Conference is of
opinion that, as the British Government, through the South African
Customs Union — which comprises Basutoland and the Bechuanaland
Protectorate — do. at present allow a preference against foreign coun-
tries to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia. New Zonland, and
ail other British Possessions granting reciprocity. His Majesty's
Governineiit should now take into consideration the possibility of
granting a like preference to all portions of the Empire on the
present dutiable articles in ibr lirltUli l:iritY.
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 Ix
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
X.
Navigation Laws and Coastwise Trade.
[The following Resolution was agreed to by the members of the
Conference, with the exception of His Majesty's Government, who
dissented, in respect of the inclusion of the words dealing with trade
between the Mother Country and the Colonies.J
That the liesolution of the Conference of 1902, which was in the
following terms, be reaffirmed : —
" That it is desirable that the attention of the Governments of
the Colonies and the United King'dom should be called to the present
state of the Navigation Laws in the Empire, and in other countries,
and to the advisability of refusing the privileges of coastwise trade,
including trade between the Mother Country and its Colonies and
possessions, and between one Colony or possession and another, to
countries in which the corresponding trade is confined to ships of
their own nationality, and also to the laws affecting shipping, with a
view of seeing whether any other steps should be taken to promote
Imperial trade in British vessels."
XI.
Treaty Obligations.
That the Imixrial Government be requested to prepare, for the
information of Colonial Governments, statements showing the privi-
leges conferred and the obligations imposed on the Colonies by
existing commercial treaties, and that inquiries bo instituted to
ascertain how far it is possible to make those obligations and benefits
uniform throughout the Empire.
xn.
Preferential Trade Arr.vngements and Treaty Questions.
That all doubts should be removed as to the right of the self-
governing Dependencies to make reciprocal and preferential fiscal
agreements with each other and with the United Kingdom, and
further, that such right should not be fettered by Imperial treaties
or conventions without their concurrence.
XIII.
Uniformity in Trade Marks and Patents.
That it is desirable that His Majesty's Government, after full
consultation with the self-governing Dominions, should endeavour to
provide for such uniformity as may be practicable in the granting
and protection of trade marks and patents.
58— B
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
XIV.
Uniformity in Trade Marks and Statistics.
That it is desirable, so far as circumstances permit, to secure
greater uniformity in the trade statistics of the Empire, and that
the note prepared on this subject by the Imperial Government be
commended to the consideration of the various Governments re-
presented at this Conference.
XV.
Uniformity of Common Law.
That it is desirable, so far as circumstances permit, to secure
greater uniformity in the company laws of the Empire, and that the
memorandum and analysis prepared on this subject by the Imperial
Government be commended to the consideration of the various Gov-
ernments represented at this Conference.
XVI.
EECiPRocrrY in Admission of Land Sur\t:yors to Practice.
That it is desirable that reciproeit.v should be established between
the respective Governments and examining authorities throughout
the Empire with regard to the examination and authorisation of land
surveyors, and that the memorandum of the Surveyors' Institute on
this subject be commended for tlio favourable consideration of the
respective Governments.
XVII.
International Penny Postage.
That in view of the social and political advantages and the
material commercial advantages to accrue from a system of inter-
national penny postage, this Conference recommends to His Maj-
esty's Government the advisability, if and when a suitable opportunity
occurs, of approaching the (lovcrnments of otlier States, members of
the Universal Postal Union, in order to obtain further reductions of
postage rates, with a view to a more general, and, if possible, a uni-
versal, adoption of the penny rate.
XVIII.
Imperial Cable Communication.
1. That in the opinion of this Conference the provision of alterna-
tive routes of cable communication is desirable; but in deciding upon
such routes, the question of the strategic advantage should receive
the fullest consideration.
2. That landing licenses should not operate for a longer period
than 20 years, and that when subsidies are agreed to be paid, they
should be arranged on the " standard rcveime " principle — i.e., half
the receipts after a fixed gross revenue has been earned to bo utilised
for the extinguishment of the subsidy and, by agreement, for the
reduction of nito^.
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 xi
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
XIX.
Naturalisation.
That with a view to attain uuiformity so far as practicable, an
enquiry should be held to consider further the question of natural-
isation, and in particular to consider how far and under what con-
ditions naturalisation in one part of His Majesty's dominions should
be effective in other parts of those dominions, a subsidiary Confer-
ence to be held if necessary under the terms of the Kesolution
adopted by this Conference on 20th April last.
XX.
Development of Communications within the Empire.
That in the opinion of this Conference the interests of the Em-
pire demand that in so far as practicable its different portions
should be comiected by the best possible means of mail communica-
tion, travel, and transportation:
That to this end it is advisable that Great Britain should be
connected with Canada, and through Canada with Australia and
New Zealand, by the best service available within reasonable cost:
That for the purpose of carrying the above project into effect
such financial support as may be necessary should be contributed by
Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in equitable
proportions.
XXI.
The members of this Conference, representing the Self-Govern-
ing Colonies, desire, before they separate, to convey to Lord Elgin,
their warm and sincere appreciation of the manner in which he has
presided over their deliberations, as well as of the many courtesies
which they have received from him : they desire also to ' put on
record the deep sense of gratitude which they feel for the generous
hospitality which has been extended to them by the Government and
people of the United Kingdom.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58 A. 1908
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 11I07. f^^n
1907.
.MINITES OF THE I'ROCEEDIXGS OF THE I'ULUMAL
CONFERENCE, 1907.
FIRST DAY.
Held .\t the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Monday, 15th April, 1907.
The following Members of the Conference were present: — The
Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Eight Hon. the Earl of
Elgin, K.G.) in the chair; the Prime Minister of Canada (the Eight
Hon. Sir 'Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.) ; the Prime Minister of Aus-
tralia (the Hon. Alfred Deakin); the Prime Minister of New
Zealand (the Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, K.C.M.G.) ; the Prime Minister
of Cape Colony (the Hon. L. S. Jameson, C.B.) ; the Prime Minister
of Xatal (the Hon. R. F. Moor) ; and the Prime Minister of the
Transvaal (General the Hon. Louis Botha).
The following Colonial Ministers were present: — The Hon. Sir
F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G. (Canada); the Hon. Sir W. Lyne,
K.C.il.G. (Australia); and the Hon. Dr. Smabtt (Cape Colony).
The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (the Eight Hon. Sir
H. Campbell-Bannerman, G.C.B.) was present, together with the
following Members of His Majesty's Government : — The Eight Hon.
John Morley, O.M. ; the Eight Hon. E. B. Haldane, K.C. ; the
Eight Hon. Lord Tweedmouth ; the Eight Hon. John Burns ; and
the Eight Hon. D. Lloyd-George. There were also present Mr.
Winston Churchill, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
the Colonies; Sir Fr.\ncis Hopwood, K.C.B., the Permanent Under-
Secretary of State for the Colonies; Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G.,
K.C.I.E., on behalf of the India Office; the Assistant Under-Secre-
taries of State for the Colonies; the Secretaries to the Conference;
the Private Secretaries to the Secretary of State for the Colonies and
to the Colonial representatives.
CHAIEMAN: Gentlemen, the Members of the Conference
having all assembled, vsdth the exception of Sir Eobert Bond, who is '
detained for a day or two, I assume that we may now proceed to
business. Before doing so, I have the honour to read the following
telegram which has been received from His Majesty the King: "At
" the first meeting to-day of the Colonial Conference, I wish you to
" convey to the Prime Ministers and representatives of my self-
" governing Colonies, a warm welcome on my behalf, and to inform
^" them that I shall look forward with pleasure to receiving them on
58—1 1
2 COLONIAL COSFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
First Day. "my return to England. The questions which will be submitted to
1907^ '^^ ' " ti'« Conference for discussion, involving matters of weighty in-
— " terest, not merely to the Colonies there represented, but to the
(Chairman.) « Bri^jgii Empire at large, will, I am sure, receive the most careful
" attention, and I am confident that the decisions arrived at will
" tend towards the closer union of my Colonies to the Mother Country
" and to each other, and to the strengthening and consolidation of
"my Empire."
Gentlemen, may I, in a single word on my own behalf, offer a
welcome to those who have come to attend this Conference. For the
rest it is, I am sure, a gratification to all — as it is especially to
myself — that my Right Hon. friend on my right has been able to
attend this meeting, and without further preface I will ask the Prime
Minister to address the Conference.
The PEIME MINISTER: It is a great pleasure to me to
respond to the invitation of Lord Elgin that I should welcome, as I
do most sincerely in the name of His Majesty's Government, the
Prime Ministers of the great self-governing communities beyond the
seas, who are now for the fourth time gathered together in the capital
of the Mother Country for consultation on matters affecting their
common interests and ours. You are all of you friends, most of you
personal friends, some of you old personal friends of myself and the
Ministers with whom you have come to confer. Sir Wilfrid Laurier
has, if I may use a slang expression of the day, a '' record perform-
ance"; he has been here on each occasion. Mr. Deakin, now speak-
ing for the Commonwealth of Australia, attended as Chief Secretary
of the Colony of Victoria, the earliest Conference in 1887, a gather-
ing, which, as we all remember, was not restricted to the self-govern-
ing Colonies or to the Prime ^Ministers. Sir Robert Bond, as Lord
Elgin has said, has not yet arrived. He took part in the previous
Conference; but the other Prime Ministers are here for the first time
in this capacity, and I wish to extend a special greeting to General
Botha, the Benjamin of the Brotherhood, if I may use that phrase,
the first Prime Minister of the Transvaal, whose presence in our
councils I am sure you will welcome as cordially as do His Majesty's
Government. I should have been glad if he could have been accom-
panied by the Prime Jlinister of the Orange River Colony, b\it that
has been impossible because its constitution could not be brought into
effect in time, and I may perhaps throw in the observation that there
will be no avoidable delay in establishing it. The absence of the
heads of so many Governments from the sphere of their activity,
must, I am afraid, have occasioned great inconvenience and con-
siderablp public as well as personal sacrifices, but we sincerely trust
that your presence in council will justify these sacrifices, that it will
offer solid compensation for the long journey you have undertaken,
and for the time which you are about to devote to a discussion of the
matters which arc of common concern to us all.
Gentlemen, whatever be the value and whatever be the issue lof
your deliberations, it is with the greatest gratification that we wel-
come you, and warm as I know your attachment and devotion to the
Mother Country to be, I can assiiro you the feeling of affectionate
interest and pride entertained williin the shores of the Old Co\intry
is not to be surpa.ssed even by your wannest sentiments. But I
need not dwell upon the expression of your cordial relations; in fact
COI.OMAL rOM'Eh'EXCE. 1907 S
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
I am sure that in private life those who are united by the most First Day;
sacred ties of rehitionship and the sincerest affection gain in the ''^*^,™P'''''
estimation of their neighbours by the too frequent and effusive pro- — L
testation or oxliibition of their feeling toward each other. I am p*^'''^;,
not therefore disiKised to occupy much of your time in mere declara- B^^e^r-"
tious of our friendly attachment to each other, and our common man.)
solicitude for our joint and individual interests, but I would rather
follow, what I think is really the more significant course, of taking
all this for granted.
You will have a long progranune of business before you, and I
do not propose to do more — I do not think I am called upon to do
more — than just to glance at some of the matters which have brought
you together; but I should like to observe at this point — and there
is sometimes, apparently, in the minds of men a mistake on this
subject — that this is not a conference between the Premiers and the
Colonial Secretary, but between the Premiers and members of the
Imperial Government under the presidency of the Secretary of State
for the Colonies, which is a very different matter. In regard to
questions of military defence, for instance, the Secretary of State
for War will come and confer with you, and the First Lord of the
Admiralty, in the same way, will be present when naval questions
are discussed. On this I may say, that I think the views sometimes
taken of the proper relations of the Colonies to the Mother Country
with respect to expenditure on armaments have been, of late, some-
what modified. We do not meet you to-day as claimants for money,
although we cordially recognize the spirit in which contributions
have been made in the past, and will, no doubt, be made in the
future. It is, of course, possible to over-estimate the importance of
the requirements of the over-sea dominions as a factor in our ex-
penditure; but however this may be, the cost of naval defence and
the responsibility for the conduct of foreign affairs hang together.
On the question of emigration, a matter which is of the utmost
moment to you as well as to the Mother Country, Mr. John Burns,
the President of the Local Government Board, will join in your
councils; and if any question should arise with regard to India, you
will have the advice of a most distinguished Member of Council,
Sir James Mackay; and I am sure that you will be glad to see my
Right Hon. friend, Mr. John Morley, amongst us this morning.
Then, when you come to discuss matters of finance, trade, and
commerce, my colleagues, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the
President of the Board of Trade, will be present to state the views
which His Majesty's Government entertain ou these important
matters. Amongst them the question of Preference must hold a
prominent position, and I am sure you will find that my Right Hon.
friends are prepared fully to recognise the friendy action which ha3
been taken by some of the Colonies, and to enter upon this subject
in the fullest and frankest manner.
I hope that an agreement may be arrived at as to many of these
points,* and if in regard to others you are compelled to differ amongst
yourselves, or to differ from us, you will agree to differ not merely
in a jierfectly friendly way (so much may be assumed) but with
mutual respect for the grounds and motives on which differences ol
opinion may be founded. You in common with us are representa-
tives of self-governing communities. We have no power here in this
58— li
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
First Dav.
15th April.
1907.
(Sir H.
Campbell-
Bauner-
man.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
room, as you know, to arrive at any binding decisions. His Majesty's
Government cannot go behind the declared opinions of this country
and our Parliament. No more can you go behind the opinions and
wishes of your communities and Parliaments; but, sub.iect to this
governing limitation, there remain, as I have said, and as I firmly
believe, many matters of great moment in which there is room for
arrangement and advance.
These Conferences were formerly more or less identified with great
ceremonial occasions. This is, I believe, the first that has been
specifically summoned for the purpose of business. I wish to say a
word here about a desire that has been felt with regard to the period
between the Conferences that there should be greater means than
at present to continue in the interval the definite com m unications
which the Conferences make necessary. We shall hope to find some
method of meeting this desire. I am not going to enumerate, still
less discuss and criticise, the various schemes more or less ambitious
which have been put forward, but I will just make a remark appli-
cable to all such proposals. We found ourselves, Gentlemen, upon
freedom and independence — that is the essence of the British Im-
jjcrial connection. Freedom of action on the part of the individual
state, freedom in their relations with each other, and with the
Mother Country. Anything which militates against that principle
would be wholly contrary to the genius of our race and our political
ideals, and would sooner or later be disastrous. There are some words
which perfectly express what I have in my mind and which were used
in this place five years ago by Mr. Chamberlain; and I cannot men-
tion Mr. Chamberlain without expressing on my own part and the
part of my colleagues, and indeed I think I am authorised to say on
behalf of the whole of the public of this country irrespective of
political opinion, our deep and sincere regret, which I know is
heartily felt all over the British Dominions, that he is for the present
unable to take an active part in our public afFairs. These are his
words to whicji I refer : " The link " he said, " which unites us, almost
" invisible as it is, sentimental in its character, is one which we would
" gladly strengthen, but at the same time it has proved itself to be
"so strong that certainly we would not wish to substitute for it a
" chain which might be galling in its incidence."
Gentlemen, freedom does not necessarily mean letting things
drift, and in my opinion some provision should be made for main-
taining the impetus which these Cnnforcncos will give to the con-
sideration and settlement of questions which have been discussed
here. T would also refer for a moment to the precedent that has
recently been made for holding what I may call subsidiary Confer-
ences upon matters of importance. T refer to the Navigation Con-
ference that is sitting under the presidency of my friend, the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, and at which I observe that Sir Joseph
Ward, Sir William L3me, and other representative:; are rendering
great service in the discussion of very difficult problems. To m.v
mind the precedent set is of high importance, and T should like to
see these ancillary Conferences held from time to time ns matters
arise which require more time and treatment in greater detail than
is possible in the Colonial Conference itself.
Well, Gentlemen, I have no more to say. T am fully confident
that your coming here will not have been in vain. You will not
judge of the feeling entertained towards yoii by acclamations and
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 J
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
festivities alone, although of those there will be abundance, but by First Day.
the mutual spirit of friendship, the desire to stretch every point that '■^*'\q^'""'^'
can be stretched in order to meet the views of each constituent part — ^^ L
of the Empire, the desire, equally strong I hope, to avoid prejudicing 5^'^^ ^'
in any way the interests of each other; and over and above all, you Banner-'
will be inspired and invigorated by our common pride in the great man.)
beneficent mission which the British people in all parts of the world
arc, as we believe, appointed and destined to fulfil.
Sir WILFKID LAURIEK: Lord Elgin, Sir Henry CampbeU-
Bannerman, and Gentlemen, it so happens that I am about the oldest
Member of this Conference and, as has been said by Sir Henry
Campbell-Baunerman, I can almost boast of a record performance, '
having been here twice, in 1897 and in 1902, and it is not without
some sense of regret I must say that I find myself about the only
man who attended those Conferences. I share altogether the senti-
ments which have been expressed by the Prime Minister, that it is
a matter of deep regret, not only in this country but all through
the British Empire, that this time the man who presided over the
last two Conferences which I attended, Mr. Chamberlain, should not
be able to take any part in public affairs; and I am sure that I
express the same sentiment when I say that we all hope, in the most
distant homes of the British Empire, that his health will be quite
restored, and that he will take his place again in the public affairs
of this great country and Empire. Xothing could be more grateful
to us, no better commencement of this Conference could take place,
than the message which has been read to us coming from His
Majesty the King; and nest to this message we welcome the presence
of the Prime Minister of the Crown. This Conference is not. as I
understand it (I give my own views) a Conference simply of the
Prime Ministers of the different self-governing Colonies and the
Secretary of State, but it is, if I may give my own mind, a confer-
ence between government and governments ; it is a Conference between
the Imperial Government and the Governments of the self-governing
dependencies of England. I recognize all the difficulties which beset
us; they have been expressed by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.
We all hope and we all believe in the future of the British Empire.
There are ways and ways by which it can he increased and improved.
We are here to discuss those questions. Upon many things we can
agree; upon many things, I believe, we cannot agree at this moment;
but, above all things, we all agree we all move towards the same goal
and the same end. The observations which have been offered to us
by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman upon this subject have been
excellent, and could not be improved upon. I am sure. He recognises
that there are things upon which public opinion is not in the same
groove that it is perhaps in the Colonies. We must recognise that
there are many questions upon which public opinion in our own
respective countries may not be the same as in this country. But
upon one thing we are all agreed, and I believe that if we can keep
this in view we can never go astray, that is to say, that if the basis
of the union which now binds the British Empire remains as it is
now, a proper and always permanent recognition of the principle
that every community knows best what does for itself, then we can-
not go wrong, and our deliberations must be fruitful. This is the
spirit, at all events for my part, in which I approach the great
subjects we have to discuss. The time is not fitting to-day to take
6 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
First Day. these subjects in detail, and I will confine my few remarks upon this
1907!"^' ' P°^^^ *° ^^^ same spirit which has inspired the observations of the
Prime Minister; but I have only one word to say, to express my
(Sir Wilfrid great satisfaction that our proceedings are commencing under such
favourable auspices.
Mr. DEAKIN: My Lord, Mr. Prime Minister, and Gentlemen,
the wise and weighty words which you have been good enough to
address to us to-day, furnish a fitting opening, and, if I may be par-
doned for saying so. coming from your lips, the most fitting opening
for a Conference whose character and principle you have aptly de-
fined. Tour address. Sir, contains many memorable sentences, sum-
ming up with felicity some of the aspects from which this gathering
will, we hope, come to be generally regarded. We acknowledge your
presence as a recognition of the principle alluded to by my friend and
senior. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, as one which we are anxious to uphold,
that this is a Conference between governments and governments, due
recognition, of course, being had to the seniority and scope of those
governments. In addition, we owe to you a propitious and happy
exposition of the nature of this Conference for those to whom we, at
all events, naturally turn our eyes. We may be pardoned for laying
what might appear to many residents of this country an undue stress
upon the importance of your speech, not that it will fail of adequate
recognition, but because to the distant communities from whom we
come, for whom we speak, and in whose name alone we wish to be
heard, it means much more than it can to the people of this country,
accustomed as they are continually to hear from your lips political
utterances relating to what I may term the home politics of the
United Kingdom.
But utterances of yourself and of leaders like yourself relating to
those larger politics which we share with you are, first of all, rare,
next fail to be conveyed to those whom we represent, as these un-
doubtedly will be. We are happy to think that millions in Australia
— I use the word, although it is large, in reference to our population,
advisedly— practically the whole population of Australia to-morrow
will have the opportunity of reading in ex'toiso the remarks which you
have been good enough to make to-day. What does that mean ^ Tho
subjects with which you have dealt have probably been but lightly
touched upon there since six weeks ago the Parliament of the Com-
monwealth was closed in order to permit of the attendance of its
representatives at this table. During those six weeks I venture to
say, without any very intimate knowledge of detail, that local public
events in Australia have not stood still, and that the interest of our
people in those events has not diminished. Consequently the tendenc.v
has been to overlay whatever impression was made by the action of
our Parliament in adjourning to permit of the attendance of my
colleiigue and myself at this Conference by the more insistent demand-;
of the everyday politics of our country. After these proceedings close,
five weeks will elapse before either of us will have the opportunity of
addressing the people of Australia in order to explain what we think
has been done here, and also what has been attempted to be done.
Now all this interval requires to be bridged over by some such strong
influence as you. Sir, by .your address, are, fortunately, bringing to
bear. It will revive that interest of theirs in the Proceedings of this
Conference, an interest as deep as is the interest of the peoiile of
this country: you refre.sh that interest ;ind tliiis enable the Proceed-
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907 7
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ings of this Conference to become to them actual, concrete, and in- ^"'*t Day.
deed Hving. ^^'"iSOT^"^'
On our side of the sea, with the ample self-government that happily
-we enjoy, and, perhaps, largely because we are still a smaller com- r)'^"-' \
munity, our electors, men and women both, share and share intimately
with us so for as they choose in every stage and every step of our
political action. If that intimacy be withdrawn from them, or rather,
if the knowledge which enables them to follow us step by step be
withdrawn from them, those political questions disappear over their
horizon and are replaced by others closer and more pressing although
probably of far less importance. Consequently, to us publicity is of
great importance. It this Conference is to exercise that educational
influence to which, in your concluding remarks, you referred as one
of its chief functions — if it is to exercise it at all efficiently, it can
only be by convincing Australia that the Government of Great
Britain, the Government of the Empire, realises the significance of
this gathering, however limited its practical powers may be. That
you do recognise its importance we have proof in that you not only
thinlv fit to attend it, but honour it by addressing to us such words
of experience and counsel as you have been good enough to speak to-
day. Tou will, therefore, realise that much natural anxiety felt by
us has been dispelled by your appearance and by your address, and
will also perhaps realise how, at a later stage, we shall be inclined to
ask your colleagues to remember that our people on the other side
of the world, unless kept in close touch with the proceedings of this
Conference, will not derive from it anything like the benefit we are
desirous they should obtain. The preceding Conferences, at which Sir
"Wilfrid Laurier has been present, and in which he has played so
bonourable and conspicuous a part may have produced great results
in this country and in Canada, which, as compared with us, is your
next-door neighbour; but to our communities at the Antipodes,
separated by half the globe, I regret to say that those Conferences
failed of anything like their full effect. Their results were carefidly
studied by some politicians and by those directly concerned, but they
made little or no impression upon our people ; and the impressiod
upon out people is what, in the long rim, will determine very largely
the attention paid even by public men. What the electors disregard,
and cannot be practically invited to regard, tends always to become
obscured by more immediate demands.
I trust that in this Conference we shall realise that although we
have been likened and happily likened to a Cabinet of Cabinets, we
differ absolutely from all Cabinets inasmuch as we have not a tittle
of executive power; neither legislative nor executive authority is
ours; and therefore the strict confidence necessarily observed in
Cabinets has no analogical relation to the proceedings here. There
are always risks in regard to publicity, and there are some matters
in which reticence and private discussions are undoubtedly desirable;
l)ut it appears to me that the major part of the subjects for our dis-
cussion are not of that kind. Looking at our agenda paper, I observe
that those subjects are few, and of those few subjects only some few
parts call for secrecy. The great bulk of our deliberations might, 33
it appears to me, be held in public, or as nearly in public as the sense
of this Conference authorises. Of course there are i)erils in publicity,
but the greatest risk this Conference can run is the risk of being
ignored or misunderstood. The more it is now ignored, or its publi-
8 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
^i^^t Day. cation postponed, the greater will be the liability to misunderstand-
1907^ ' ings. These, when once they obtain currency, are hard to correct.
Especially is this the case when you have to travel half round the
De^in > globe before you begin the task of correction, and when you under-
take that task are subject to the daily demands of local politics,
which, as most of us here realise, may easily tend to conceal from
constituents the Imperial issues at stake.
But, Sir, I do not rise for the purpose of endeavouring to add
anything to your address or to criticise it, though your recognition
of the value of subsidiary conferences, which would have a more
technical and more detailed character, and call for a different class
of representation, you have made a pregnant comment. There are
many matters of this kind which can be better dealt with by such
subsidiary conferences. Some of those matters may be so better
dealt with, because such governments as Sir Wilfrid Laurier and
myseK represent, not being unitary but federal governments, have a
limited though very large jurisdiction. There are questions beyond
their jurisdiction falling within the control of the local governing
bodies — the State Governments in our ease; the provincial govern-
ments in the case of Canada. On certain particular subjects, such,
for instance, as Education — and an educational gathering of some
kind is shortly to take place here — our local governments require to
be, and ought to be, represented.
The further remark made that it is our good fortune on this
occasion not to be identified with any exceptional ceremonial is also
timely. If it did not sound ungrateful, I could wish that we had
not been identified with a London season or with a Session of the
Imperial Parliament. If possible, these Conferences should assemble
when Ministers of the Imperial Parliament are at leisure, and when
the additional advantage might present itself of our having the
public attention of the people of Great Britain to ourselves for a
little time rather than come as we do now under the shadow of the
great questions which are being debated in both Houses of the
British Parliament. This Conference occupies a niche quite large
enough for us individually, but too small for the great communities
which we represent, especially if their possibilities are to be taken
into account. We are not the representatives of to-day, though to-day
we claim to speak for them ; we are also the representatives of to-
morrow, and of the day after to-morrow, of those portions of the
British Empire in which the vastest opportunities of expansion, of
aggrandisement, and of peaceful development exist, and which in view
of those possibilities desire for their own sakes, as well as for yours, to
be knit closer together. We aspire to the attainment of a mutual un-
derstanding, one of those ties which was happily referred to by the late
Lord Granville, when, following Lord Salisbury at the first Conference
in 1887, he referred to them as " ties of steel and of silk." It was at
that Conference, to which my memory returns, that the precedent was
set which you have happily followed by addressing us as a Prime
Minister. Lord Granville, representing the then Opposition, also did
us the honour to speak on that occasion. The chivalrous reference
which you have made to Mr. Chamberlain, the statesman who lately
presided over these gatherings, may also l>c taken as equivalent to a
representation here of tlio present Opposition in the British Parlia-
ment.
In the future, Sir, we hope that the principle to which you have
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 9
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
given your adherence, which has led to your presence here to-day. J}j^^ a^^m'
will be jrivpn a still further expansion. We may consider whether the 1907.
Prime ^Minister of Great Britain, if not the actual, ought not to be the
titular President of all these gatherings, so that the principle of Deakiii.)
governments conferring with governments would be recognised. Such
a course would not detract in any sense or by any possible sugges-
tion from any future Secretary of State for the Colonies, and. cer-
tainly, least of all. the Right Hon. statesman of experience who
occupies that post to-day. but merely in order to impress upon the
public the cardinal fact that these pre meetings of governments with
governments for the sake of the Empire.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : My Lord. Mr. Prime Minister, and gen-
tlemen, unlike my two friends. Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Mr. Deakin,
this is the first occasion upon which it has been my privilege and
honour to attend this great Conference, which is looked forward to
by the people whom I represent with the deepest possible interest, and
I want to say how much I appreciate the sentiments conveyed in the
address delivered by the Prime Minister. We approach this Con-
ference with a full recognition of the difficulties that must neces-
sarily exist, jiot only in Great Britain, but in each of our countries,
upon matters concerning which there is very great room for differ-
ences of opinion, and it is because of the fact in the outlying
countries that those differences of opinion and difficulties attending
them exist, that we are anxious to have the benefit at the consulta-
tion and the discussion of them, of the ripened judgment of the men
who are responsible for the government of the Empire. For my own
part I want to say how much I appreciate to perhaps a minor matter
made by the Prime Minister. I refer to the Conference which is
sitting in another place for the purpose of regulating and dealing
with the Xavigation Laws of the Empire, and I take the opportunity
of saying that, under the able presidency of Mr. Lloyd George, that
Conference already has dealt with some of the most complex matters,
and has arrived at decisions which, before we went into Conference,
appeared to be almost impossible (to my mind at least) of solution.
It is from a knowledge of what we have alreadj' done in one great
department affecting various parts of Britain and her possessions
there, and the solutions that have been arrived at, that I look forward
with some confidence to the discussions, and the results from those
discussions, which must take place upon matters doubtless of wider
and greater moment and of very great difficulty that will come up for
consideration at this Conference.
Xew Zealand is far distant from the seat of the Empire. One
arrives in the old land and feels on every side that one is amongst
New Zealanders in the sense that they are British. The sentiment
of the people, the desires and ambitions of the people here, though
covering a very much wider area, are very similar to what we find
in our own country, and it is one of the fine sides to being a member
of the British Empire that one realises on coming to the old land
that there is amongst every class a desire to bring all parts of our
dominions as closely together as possible for the purpose of our
common good. I want to say, my Lord President and gentlemen,
that however one from time to time may observe that the questions
of the Colonies get drawn into the position of being subjects for
political fighting either here or elsewhere, I regard the question of
10
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
First Day. the future of the Empire as one that should be kept entirely above
1907^"^' ' ^iid clear of party warfare. There must be no question of party in-
troduced into it. I am perfectly certain that the members of the
Imperial Government view the matter in the same light, and I, for
one, look forward with very great hope to the time when all questions
affecting- the Colonies may get into that hapijy position which the
Foreign Office occupies in regard to the affairs of the Empire. Gov-
ernments come and governments go; parties come and parties go, but
our Great Empire we trust will last for ever; and the continuity of
policy dealing with the great foreign affairs of this Old World is one
of the things we admire so much, and which we would much like to
get to the position of, so far as it affects the Colonies.
Sir Henry Canipbell-Baunerman in the course of his admirable
speech expressed a desire that we should approach matters apper-
taining to each of our countries without prejudice to one another.
1 am perfectly certain, Sir, that that will prevail in the whole of
the discussions that take place at this Conference. I will not go into
any details. The agenda is a long one; it contains most important
matters, and I can only say that some of them I resard as of the
most vital consequence, perhaps I may say without egotism, to the
Old Country and certainly to the newer ones, that I believe the most
important matters submitted will be decided upon, and that the ripe
judg-nients of the gentlemen representing the Old Country, co-
operating with the men from the younger countries, whose positions
are so often misunderstood, will surmount difficulties that have
seemed incapable of settlement. I recognise that the machinery
required for carrying on an old country with a huge population is
quite a different business to that which we have in bringing into
active life the younger countries for the administration of which
we are for the moment responsible. In our countries we can do
things in a day or a year that it naturally takes a long time to effect
in the Old Land, and sometimes, perhaps, we are rather restive in
wondering why it is that matters that we conceive to be for the good
of our people in our own portion of the British Empire, that we
think might be applied to the Old World itself, have been so long
in being brought into operation. But on examination into facts we
realize that it is infinitely more difficult to turn the machinery of
the Old World such as exists to meet the diverse interests and re-
quirements of such a huge population, than the machinery of a
young country, especially when we have history and example by
which we can steer clear of the difficulties that present themselves
to the Old Country, and we get into a position of greater comfort
in our younger communities than can be expected to be achieved
in an old land. I want to express my regret that the ill-health of the
gentleman who took such an active part in a former Government
in connection with Colonial matters lias, for the moment, laid him
aside, and those sentinu^nts, so very finely expressed by Sir Henry
Campbell-Bannerman, I tliink will be re-ochoeil certainly in the
country T re|)resent, where a great deal of sympathy is felt in con-
nection with ^fr. Chamberlain's illness.
I wish to thank the Lord President and the Prime ilinister for
that cordial reception which I feel that from British representative
gentlemen we woulil, under ordinary conditions, receive, l>\it coming
from them at this great Conference it is to me personallv a very great
pleasure indeed to acknowledge it. I know the Xew Zealanders will
COLOXIAL COSFEREXCE, 1907 11
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
look forward with very great concern to the doings, when they are First Day.
made public, of this important Conference, which I believe, and, I '' jg^^"^
certainly hope, will be in the direction of bringing the Old Land and '-
the great and growing self-governing colonies into much closer ^'^'m''^°l®^P'^
connection than they have attained now.
Dr. JAMESON: Lord Elgin, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman,
and Gentlemen, in the words of appreciation used by Sir Wilfrid
Laurier as to the message of welcome we have received from the
hands of the King, I think he was speaking for all of us. Again,
the graceful words used in connection with ilr. Chamberlain, who
presided at the former Conference, I am sure we all join )u e5_)res-
sing, and I hope, before we go to-day, that those words will take
formal expression in some message of sympathy from the Conference
to tliat great statesman. The representatives of the greatest colonies
have spoken, and I feel — and I think my colleagues. General Botha
and Mr. iloor, will feel— that we, representatives of South Africa,
must naturally labour under a certain disadvantage, not only on
this occasion, but on every occasion of a meeting of the Conference
when these important subjects on the agenda paper are brought up.
We cannot each individually sjieak for South Africa. We have not
attained our destiny, as those two great colonies, Austraha and
Canada, have already done. Xew Zealand, I believe, can live within
itself, it requires no further consolidation, unless it is that great
consolidation which this Conference, we hope, will take a long step
towards bringing about, that is the consolidation of the whole of the
component parts of the Empire. But we in South Africa, I hope and -
I thoroughly believe, will minimise that disadvantage by the unani-
mity with which we will approach every subject which is brought
forward, and we may further get a l-)cal advantage, I think, in that
if possible we, seeing that we do suffer from that disadvantage here,
will go back to our countries in South Africa more earnest than ever
in endeavouring to consolidate our local interests, so that at our
next Conference South Africa also shall be represented by one re-
presentative. In thanking you. Sir, on behalf of Cape Colony, for
the kind welcome you have extended to us to-day, I wish to say that
I was very glad to see that, though of course, you expressed in very
kind words of sympathy, not only of the English Government, but
of the whole of the English people with the Colonies and their re-
presentatives, you also reminded us that it was not merely sympathy
that was expected from this Conference, but solid business. There-
fore, I take it that we will get further, probably, in this Conference
than in past Conferences, that we will get beyond the simple dis-
cussion of the methods of unity within the Empire. I look forward
with that expression of .vours. Sir. and with the trouble which you
took to lightly pass over the whole of the agenda paper before the
Conference, as far as it exists at the present time, to resolutions being
passed, not merely as resolutions which may be forgotten but resolu-
tions put into such a form that they will bring some real result. It is
quite true ,as you. Sir. said, that of course, at this Conference, resolu-
tions, may be passed but no action can be taken. But there are
various kinds of resolutions, and resolutions may be put in such a
■form at this Conference — always supposing we, the Colonial repre-
sentatives, come into agreement with the representatives of His
Majest.v's Government — that the.v can go to the various Legislatures,
with whom alon the power rests, and that we should be able to take
12 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
First Day. some step forward — some practical step towards further unity, not
^^ jogJ"" • only in the sentimental feeling, but in the practical material interests
'- of the various component parts of the Empire.
(Dr. Jame- J thank you, Sir, again for your kind welcome,
son.)
Mr. F. R. MOOR : Lord Elgin, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman,
and Gentlemen, — On behalf of the Colony I represent, I have to sin-
cerely thank Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, the head of your Gov-
ernment, for the welcome we have received here this morning, and I
sincerely hope and sincerely believe that this great gathering is going
to be for the good, not only of the Empire as a whole, but also for
the good of that little Colony which I have the honour of representing
here this morning.
General BOTHA : My Lord, may I express myseK in Dutch, as I
find it a ^ttle difficult to express myseK in English.
{The following statement was made hy General Botha through an
interpreter.)
The circumstances under which I am present here this morning
are somewhat different from those under which the other Prime
Ministers are here. They have aU been long in the saddle in the
Colonies which they represent. I have just got into the saddle and I
am not firmly seated yet. When the invitation arrived to attend this
Conference my Government did not hesitate to express the opinion
that the invitation should be accepted at once. Of course always hav-
ing been the leader of the Boer population there, and because the Gov-
ernment have now received great privileges from the Imperial Gov-
ernment, it was a source of great pleasure to me to attend this Con-
ference on behalf of the Transvaal people, and to prove by such
attendance at the Conference that the old Dutch population of the
Transvaal would work equally loyally with the English population for
the welfare of the Transvaal and the whole British Empire. I am
very grateful for the sentiments expressed by Sir Henry Campbell-
Bannerman in his address. I am here with an open mind on th&
various points raised, and with a fixed purpose of assisting my col-
leagues as far as I can, to forward the interests of the various portions
of the British Empire.
CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, the rest of the business which I have
to lay before this meeting, consists of arrangements which the Con-
ference will have to make in order to carry out their btisiness at the
further meetings which it will hold. Amongst those of course will be
the subject to which Mr. Deakin has referred, namely, the question
of the publicity which will attach to our meetings. I only refer to it
just now to make one observation, that it was understood between
some of us who met last week — and T think I explained it also to Sir
Wilfrid Laurier and General Botha aftorwards^that as far as regards
the proceedings of this meeting thoy are being recorded verbatim, and
will, as soon as it is practicable, be put in the hands of the Press.
The rest of that subject, it is perfectly understood, is one for the decis-
ion of the Conference itself and not in any way for Ilis Majesty's
Government. The rest of this business, I take it, would, therefore, be
of a nature which the Conference would consider, if I may so ex-
press it, in Committee, and I imagine that some of those present will
not desire to be detained.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
13
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILFEID LAUEIER: May I suggest that the Conference First Day.
should adjoui'n now, and that the other subjects as to publicity and 1907^'^
the future sittings of the Conference should come up for discussion -
at a subsequent meeting? At the present time I wish to move a vote (Chairman.)
of thanks to the Prime Minister for his attendance.
Mr. DEAKIN: I have pleasure in seconding that.
Sir HENRY CAMPBELL-BANNEKMAN : Gentlemen, I am
much obliged to you for your kindness in moving this vote of thanliLS.
I think that I should rather like, although I do not know that it
would be quite in form, to move a vote of thanks to the Conference
and to Lord Elgin for allowing me to be present, and that is much
more the sentiment which I entertain that the idea that I have done
any favour to the Conference by coming. It has been an unmixed
pleasure for me to be here, and personally, individually, to give m,y
official countenance to it. My whole object will be to do all I can to
further the interests of the Conference, to help in bringing it through
a successful career, in the hope that it may make a lasting impression
upon the great questions which you have to discuss.
(The Ministers of the Crown having retired, the Conference then
proceeded with its business in Committee.
Lord ELGIN in the Chair.
CHAIRMAN : An amended agenda paper has been circulated, but
I am afraid even that will have to be taken subject to amendments
again. Before we get to the actual agenda, may I just say that, with
regard to the days of meeting, we have arranged, as you will see, for
three or four days in a week, but not always regularly the same days.
That follows the precedent of former Conferences, in which, though
they had certain days which they aimed at, they were not able, owing
to various other engagements which the members of the Conference
had to fulfil, to keep invariably to those days. There is another cause
for a variation, namely. Cabinet meetings, which I and my colleagues
are obliged to attend. During the last Conference there was, I be-
lieve, a fixed day in the week on which the Cabinet meeting was
generally held. Owing to circumstances that arrangement does not
prevail so regularly now, and I shall be obliged, I am afraid, to ask
the Conference to allow me to be absent from time to time without
fixing a regular day ; but I have spoken to the Prime Minister, and,
as far as possible, he will endeavour to avoid inconveniencing the
Conference in that respect. From a study of the proceedings at the
last Conference, though they may have had, and I daresay, did have,
an agenda paper something like this indicating the days, in general,
the practice was — Sir Wilfrid Laurier will correct me if I am wrong
— to fix finally at one meeting the business that was to be taken at
the next, or the next following meeting, without too great an adher-
ence to the general scheme. That, I think, was the practice, and, as
far as the Colonial members are concerned, it probably will be as con-
venient for them, as it is almost necessary for us. We can take this
agenda, therefore, as a general scheme; and it will be imderstood that
it does follow that the particular subject put down for April 25th
will be the subject which is then dealt with, but we will settle far
enough ahead, so that everybody may be ready, the subjects to be
Arrange-
ment of
Businesis.
14 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
IStti Aprfl t^ken in their order. As regards the business for Friday of this week,
1907. I should have to ask for an alteration, and it is proposed to sit on
. Saturday instead of Friday.
Arrange-
ment of Sir WILFRID LAUEIER: I may say that I have fixed several
^°!'"**^' engagements for Saturday. The next meeting of the Conference is
airman.; ^^ Wednesday and I suppose that is satisfactory to all.
CHAIRMAX : On Wednesday and Thursday we can hold meet-
ings for discussion; but on Friday I am afraid we cannot meet as
there is a Cabinet Council. The First Lord of the Admiralty is also
_ engaged on Friday and Saturday. The next thing to arrange is with
regard to the time of the meetings. I am not quite sure what the
hours were on the occasion of the previous Conferences.
Sir WILFRID LAITRIER : From 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock.
CHAIRMAN : And not in the afternoon ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: No.
CHAIRMAN: I think we might meet at 11 o'clock and sit till
half-past 1 on the understanding that if on any occasion there was a
necessity for it we could arrange to sit in the afternoon. It appears
to me that if the Conference meets in the morning, a good deal of
business connected with the Conference can be got through in the
afternoon separately, and in this I think ^Ir. Deakin agrees because
there might be smaller meetings in the afternoon.
Sir JOSEPH WARD:- I am sure we would fall in with any
arrangements as to the sittings so long as we have enough time while
we are here to get through the work.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: We will leave it in that way. When-
ever the Conference wishes to meet we are ready to be here.
CHAIRMAN: Then we will try it this week, sitting from 11 to
half-past 1 on Wednesday and Thursday.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: There is a question as to the attend-
ance of the gentlemen who are with the Prime Ministers and the
colleagues of Prime Ministers. I should like to have my two col-
leagues present with me at the Conference. It would be a great
convenience to them and to me, at all events, and I suppose also to
Mr. Deakin, to have the benefit of the presence of our colleagues.
Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Is there any objection to that?
Mr. DEAKIN: Does not it follow from the principle which the
Prime Minister laid down to-day, that this was a consultation of
governments with governments. Although it is a case of one govern-
ment one vote, it is immaterial how many members of that govern-
ment come so long as the Prime Minister of each State is the
responsible spokesman who calls upon his colleagues when he desires
their assistance.
Sir WILFRID LAITRIER : You have expressed my own opinion
on the point.
CHAIRMAN: May I explain my position in this nuUtcri When
I rcceive<l the despatch from Canada asking that tbc Ministers who
came from Canada should be treated as members of the Conference,
I naturally referred to the proceedings of the last Conference, and I
found that it had been distinctly ruled that the Conference was a
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907 15
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Conference between the Prime ilinisters and the Secretary of State. First Day.
This particular question of the admission of other Ministers was ''^^'ijo^J"^'''
taken c.Kceptioii to at the last Conference, not by His Majesty's L
Government, or by the representaties of it, but by one of the other Arrange-
representatives, and Mr. Chamberlain ruled that if the Conference rJisTucss
was not unanimous on the point they could not be admitted. Speak- (Chairman.)
ing for His Majesty's Government we felt that the Ministers from
the Colonies under the present system really occupy the same position
as my colleagues who came into the Conference on any occasion on
which any subjects in which they are interested are brought up, and
they sit here and take part in the debates, as I understand it. The
only difference is that they do not sit at the table and take part in
the general debates unless the subject of them is one in which they
are specially interested. Personally, I should be only too pleased to
see all the Ministers from the Colonies who are good enough to attend
these meetings in this country sitting at our table. The only thing
I would like to point oiit as a matter of convenience is this: VV^e are
at present an assembly of eight gentlemen sitting round this table.
The conversations which can take place between eight people sitting
round a table can be conducted in a more familiar strain and with
less formality than those of a larger meeting. I had rather wished
to take up the whole of this subject in connection with the matter
of the next meeting and the constitution of the Conference as a
whole ; but as Sir Wilfrid Laurier has mentioned it I have pointed
out what I think ought not to be overlooked. As far as this Confer-
ence is concerned, if the Colonial representatives desire lhat other
members beside the Prime Ministers should be recognised as full
members of the Conference in a more distinct way than they already
are — because I consider that they are already so recognised — I per-
sonally have no objection except on the pure matter of convenience.
I quite recognise that there is a difference between your colleagues
and mine. My colleagues have other occupations here, and your
colleagues come specially for this Conference and nothing else, and
they naturally would desire to see and hear all that is going on. I
would suggest, as a possible solution of the matter, that if all Minis-
ters from the Colonies are recognised as full members of the Confer-
ence, that is to say, with the full right of entry to this room, it
should be understood that the Prime Ministers have the assistance,
for the purpose of a debate, of the one Minister interested in the
subject, and that the others, though present, should not intervene.
I only suggest that as a possible solution in order to keep the members
of the Conference within bounds. I hf.pe the members present will
clearly understand that this is a point ou which I do not wish to give
any ruling whatever; but I was following the principle laid down by
Mr. Chamberlain. If the Conference itself desires the presence of
others, I, of course, acquiesce.
Sir WELFRID LAUEIEE: I would say that Mr, Chamberlain
ruled, I think rather against his own inclination, that as a question
of order, the jwint being taken, as other Ministers had not been in-
vited they should not be admitted. I think he was rather favourable
to their being present. I ask the qiiestiou now, because at this Con-
ference the whole subject of the constitution of the Conference is
one thing to be discussed, and it would apply to the next one. I
think it would be- very satisfactory to Mr. Deakin if he could have a
colleague of his with him, and it would be very satisfactory to me
16 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
F-'i^'' .^"-^Z if I could have my two colleagues so that we might have the benefit
Ijth April, ,. , . .
1907. of their assistance.
Arrange- ^^- DEAKIN : I accept the suggestion of His Lordship.
ment of sjj, -^LFEID LAUEIEE : And I, certainly.
Business. ' ''
.(Sir Wilfrid CHAmMAN : My suggestion is that one member only will take
aurier.) ^^^j. j^ ^j^^ debate except by leave of the Conference.
Mr. DEAKIiST: For instance, on the question of Preferential
Trade, no doubt Sir Wilfrid Laurier would desire to speak, and at
the same time Mr. Fielding. So also I should desire to have the
assistance of Sir William Lyne.
CHAIRMAN : So that the two have a right to speak ?
Sir WILFEID LAUEIEE: The Prime Minister has a right to
speak always, but upon the question of Defence, for instance, I
should desire to have the assistance of my colleague.
Dr. JAMESON: The next iwint in connection with that, which
I want to bring forward, is that General Botha's Government have
deputed Sir Eichard Solomon to act with him in the Conference,
and owing to his position, as he told us in his speech this morning.
General Botha is very anxious constantly to have the advice of Sir
Eichard Solomon. Of course, Sir Eichard Solomon could not be a
member of the Conference, or take any part in it in any way, but
I thought it possible the Conference might agree that the Prime
Ministers should have their secretaries present with papers, and so
on, which would be a very great convenience, and is a thing which
is allowed in most other Conferences. In that way Sir Eichard
Solomon could come in and be a help to General Botha.
General BOTHA: If it involves a wrong principle I will not
press it at all, because I am a man for principles, and I do not want
to lay down wrong principles. Sir Eichard Solomon is now here to
assist me, and if possible I would like to have him present, but, as I
say, I do not want to see wrong principles laid down for this Confer-
ence which will bind future Conferences.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIEE: With all due deference, and witli
every desire to oblige my colleagues, I hardly think Sir Eichard
Solomon could give this Conference any assistance. If he were in
a position of a secretary, I think it might have been done.
Mr. DE AKIN : The Colonial Office secretaries arc here. They
take no part, though they come in freely to produce papers and
supply information.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Tliat is not taking part in the Con-
ference.
Mr. DEAKIN: No, and that is all that is proposed in this case.
Dr. JAMESON: General Botha does not ask that Sir Richard
Solomon should open his mouth except to whisper in General Botha's
ear.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is not tnkiug pnrt in tho Con-
forence.
Mr. DEAKIN: No. There is no objection to tin- secretaries being
present.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: At the last Conference my Secretary
used to bring my papers and bag up to the door, but never further.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 17
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Hr. DEAKTTs : If our secretaries were present, they could pass First Day.
us papers and sort out what we wanted. 15th April,
1907.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Are the secretaries to be admitted?
CHAIRMAN: I do not know; Sir WiHrid Laurier says it was ment of
not the practice to admit them at the previous Conferences. Business.
General BOTHA: I will not press the point now. Laurier."
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: A secretary would act as a secretary,
and would come simply as an assistant to supply papers, and so forth.
If Sir Richard Solomon comes under those circumstances it would
be different.
General BOTHA : I do not think Sir Richard Solomon is in the
same position.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Personally it would be a convenience to me,
as I have no colleagrue here, if my secretary could be handy to assist
me. Of course, I shall not expect him to take any part in the pro-
ceedings, but he would be of assistance to me in referring to papers
or anything of that sort.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The secretaries are always in attend-
ance, and if one wants anything a message can be sent out to them
to bring the necessary papers, and so on.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I believe at the last Conference
the private secretaries of the late Colonial Secretary were here in the
room all the time.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not think the members of the
Conference can have secretaries in attendance upon them at all
times.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think, perhaps, our secretaries might be
allowed to come in. We have all of us a good deal to attend to one
way or another.
CHAIRMAN: Yes, they certainly might be in attendance.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: They can be called in if need be.
CHAIRMAN : I think v/e might consider the point further about
Sir Richard Solomon, and see if we can make some other arrange-
ment. Then there is the question of the publication of our Pro-
ceedinas.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Mr. Deakin could give us his views
upon that question as he seems to have given some thought to the
subject.
Mr. DEAKIN : The thought that I have given to it is due to our
circumstances. Distant communities are absolutely dependent upon
publicity for maintaining any real interest in the doings of the Con-
ference and educating the people on Imperial questions. I shotdd
personally be very glad if the Conference would lay down a general
principle on the matter of publicity, detaining the right at the re-
quest of any member of going into Committee, as we have done
to-day, which means report, unless thought fit afterwards. In the
ordinary course, and on ordinary subjects, either the Press should
be admitted, or the course pursued to-day of giving the Press a
verbatim report afterwards should be followed. Whenever it is
thought that a discussion is likely to evoke feeling here or elsewhere
58—2
18
COLOSIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
First Day.
15th April,
1907.
Arrange-
ment ot
Business.
(Mr.
DeaVin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
whicli would be prejudicial to the conduct of our debates, that of
course would be omitted from the current report, and retained until
the full report were published later.
Sir WILFRID LAUHIER: At the last Conference we did not
publish anything except the bare resolutions, and for my part I
have come to the conclusion that these were very meagre reports, and
that it is better that the discussions should be published, but I am
not prepared to say whether they should be published from day to
day. If everything is recorded here, and if at the end of the Confer-
ence it is published with the resolutions, I think the object would be
satisfactorily served in that way. I am afraid if published from
day to day there might perhaps arise a premature discussion upon
certain matters, but I quite agree with Mr. Deakin that we should
have a daily report of what is taking place and that it should be
published with the resolutions of the Conference at the end of it.
CHAIRMAISr: I might read what the Secretary of State said at
the beginning of the last Conference : " I have made arrangements
" to have a full shorthand report of the whole of our proceedings,
" and I shall endeavour as far as possible to arrange that each day's
" report shall be sent to each of you before the next meeting. These
" reports will, of course, be treated by all of us as absolutely confi-
" dential, at all events, for the present. What we desire is a perfectly
" free discussion, which we could hardly expect if that understanding
" were not arrived at ; but at the close of your proceedings we will
" then consider whether anything, and, if so, what, should be given to
" the public. No doubt some of our conclusions will be made
" public, and it may possibly be found, on looking through the
" reports, that it may be desirable that more should be published. At
" all events, what I wish to explain is that that will be a matter for
" subsequent decision, and nothing will be published without the
" consent of the persons concerned." That was the arrangement, and
that is what we intended to continue. At the end of the last Confer-
ence, as Sir Wilfrid Laurier explains, a very small part of the pro-
ceedings was .published. It may be that at the end of this Conference
■we shall wish to publish more, but I agree with Sir Wilfrid Laurier
that it woiild be inexpedient to publish day by day. After all, this
must partake largely of the character of a confidential discussion
across the table, unless we are having set opportunities like the way
in which these proceedings l)egan to-day. That, of course, stands
on a different footing; but the ordinary course of the procedure will
be surely confidential and conversational discussion across this table,
and therefore I think it is essential that each member of the Confer-
ence should have, not only an opportunity of seeing, but of revising,
the report of what he has said. That can always be done, and we
have seen it constantly done in the proceedings of commissions and
otherwise, if you combine it, as Sir Wilfrid Laurier proposes, with
the report as a whole, but it cannot be done day by day, as. that is
almost impracticable.
Mr. DEAKIN: I do not wish to conduct the whole argument
myself, but cannot admit the analogy- between this Conference and
any Royal Commission wliethor for inquiry or otherwise. The differ-
ence is fundamental. First of all, this is a Conference of repre-
sentatives; it is a Conference of representatives who have no power
to do anything; they have only power to discuss and recommend.
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 19
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Anything to be done must be authorised by those whom they repre- ^'_"'^t Day.
sent — that is their Governments, Parliaments, and ultimately the ''^^g^;^"''
electors, and it is these who need information and conviction, if it
could be imparted to them, just as much as We do. If we here -^'range-
succeed in convincing each other absolutely and return to our coun- Business,
tries unanimous, that amounts to a great deal, but it leaves an (Mr.
immense amount to be done when we are endeavouring to convince J^ei>km.)
majorities in our Legislatures in both Chambers and majorities of
our colleagues. We have then to commence the work all over again.
Want of knowledge delays it, impedes it, and obstructs it. Secrecy
appears to me foreign to the nature of this gathering. It would be •
a legitimate criticism to say that if this Conference is treated as a
Parliament you will have Parliamentary speeches, and it is desirable,
perhaps, that our expressions here should be reconsidered and ma-
tured, and therefore that nothing should be completely published
until you have had an opportunity of revision. That is a good j>oint,
but it seems to me that could be met by saying " If no verbatim
" report from day to day can be given, let us have a full report such
'■ as is given in the first columns of a newspaper where they are
" referring to the reports in the other pages. Let them say, ' Lord
'■ ' Elgin presided to-day when the question under discussion was
" ' the constitution of the Conference. A resolution to this effect
" ' was proposed. Sir WiKrid Laurier followed, and in the course of
" ' his remarks he took exception to such and such parts of the reso-
" ' lution, and submitted such an amendment, and he was followed
'"again by Mr. Botha (or any other Member), who proposed this.
" ' After consideration these amendments were withdrawn and some-
" ' thing suggested by Sir Joseph Ward was introduced, who gave as
" ' his reasons so on ' — something like that."
Mr. WINSTON CHUKCHILL: Who do you suggest should
take the responsibility of making the summary?
Mr. DEAKIN: I suggest the secretaries here should prepare a
summary which they ought to submit to each member as to his own
remarks, and as a whole to the Chairman, or to yourself, as his
active assistant in these matters. It should be looked at from the
point of view of the British Government, while each man would see
that the short statement submitted to him was at all events so far
correct as to convey the general drift of his remarks.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: You would not suggest that
anything should be published in any case until after the member
making the speech has bad an opportunity of seeing what was to be
published and attributed to him.
Mr. DEAKIN: No, but as far as I can see a great deal of our
debates, even if there was a great deal of friction, might be carried
on before all the Press representatives of the L'nited Kingdom, as
far as I am concerned. With regard to the precis, each member
would require to see his part of it. That could be done before we
left, especially if our sittings were only in the morning, as it is only
a digest of no great length. What I mean is, that everj- word of
that would be cabled to Australia and New Zealand; every morning
they would know what we have been discussing; every morning they
would know what the principal men here were proposing; and every
few days they would hear what the final outcome had been. Then
58— 2J
20
COLONIAL CONFEEEyCE, 1907
First Day.
15th April,
1907.
Arrrauge-
ment of
Business.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
they would have their interest kept alive. They would later see in
extenso what they had only before seen in epitome.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : That was the procedure at the Navigation
Conference, my Lord, and I think that to defer until the end of the
Conference the expectancy of having everything said here published
would be rather a mistake. I am inclined to suggest that in the ab-
sence of the press a synopsis of what took place here ever^/ day is a
proper thing to issue.
Dr. JAMESON : At the Navigation Conference, was it found
necessary to submit to each member of the Conference what he had
said?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: There were three secretaries appointed,
one representing the Board of Trade, Sir William Lyne, qnd myself.
Dr. JAMESON: It was all submitted to you?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: They prepared an outline of the proceed-
ings, and it was submitted to the Board of Trade, and then submitted
to Sir William Lyne and myself.
Dr. JAMESON: Before it was published?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes.
Mr. WINSTON CHTRCHILL: Taking about half a column of
a newspaper, and this would take longer.
Mr. DEAKIN : This ought to be quite twice as long.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I think that publishing the bare resolu-
tions, as was done last time without a report of the discussion on
them, would be a great mistake; the people would not know what
was taking place and would have not the slightest idea of the views of
anybody.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I quite agree; here is the book of
the Conference that was not given to the public.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : The papers published were not laid on the
table of both Houses of Parliament until two months afterwards.
Mr. DEAKIN: The last is confidential and has not yet been
laid on the table; that is worse still.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not see why this should not be
published and given to the public as the result of the Conference.
The book we had contains the bare proceedings and the official papers,
liut the discussions from day to day are contained in this book here.
I think for my part that this book should be given to the public.
What took place at the Conference last time, Dr. Jameson, was that
the stenographer took down everytliing, but the reports were given to
each member the following day and corrected by the member, and so
corrected they are printed in this book.
Dr. JAJIESON: That would be thoroughly satisfactory. The
only thing I feel, with Mr. Deakin and Sir Joseph Ward, is, that
people would be very well satisfied if they got a short precis every day
of some kind or another.
Mr. DEAKIN: Otherwise, they lose touch with it altogether, and
we have to begin all over again.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : They look for something.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 21
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58 ,
Mr. DEAKIN: We live in the light of a publicity which you First Day.
gentlemen are hardly accustomed to. ^^"^o^'"^'^'
Dr. JAMESON : Still more important than anything else is
what Sir Wilfrid Laurier says— that that White Book, not the Blue fugn^of
Book, should be published immediately after the Conference in full. Business.
That is the most important of all. (Sir Joseph
Ward )
Mr. F. R. MOOR: You do not mean that particular book there —
the past Conference — but the present one.
Dr. JAMESON: No; on those lines.
CHAIRMAN: I understand, at any rate, that there is an agree-
ment that we shall not have a verbatim report each day.
Mr. DEAKIN : I am in a hopeless minority.
Dr. JAMESON: Another thing is, we cannot get it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think the suggestion made on the
last occasion in the words of Mr. Chamberlain is the best one, and I
see no reason to depart from it.
CHAIRMAN: This is an illustration of what was done at the
Shipping Conference the other day (indicating a newspaper para-
graph).
Dr. JAMESON: I think a very short precis might very well be
trusted to be given each day.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: We might perhaps, compromise upon
that.
CHAIRMAN: Then there is to be a precis?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN (lo Sir Francis Hopwood) : Will you undertake to
prepare a precis ?
Sir FRANCIS HOPWOOD : I shall be very happy to try at the
end of each day's proceedings.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : We can see how that works without
coming to a formal conclusion at this moment.
Mr. DEAKIN: It is very good of you. Sir Wilfrid, holding the
views you do, to meet us so kindly in the matter. I .iust took the
liberty of handing to the Secretary of State a cablegrram I have just
received from the Acting Prime Minister of the Colony, Sir John
Forrest.
CHAIRMAN: May I read it?
Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly: "Colleagues wish to express to you
'• a fervent hope that the labours of the Conference will assist in
" promoting the increase of trade and commerce amongst the British
" peoples, the maintenance of the British supremacy on the sea, and
" the closer union in the bonds of loyalty, and affection of the British
'' race throughout the world. — Forrest."
CHAIRMAN: Is there any other point?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I propose that the following telegram
be sent to Mr. Chamberlain : " This Conference begs to express its
" deep sympathy with you in your illness, and earnestly hopes that
" you may be speedily restored to active public life."
Dr. JAMESON: I beg to second that proposition.
22 COLONIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
• 7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
First Day. CHAIRMAN : No doubt the Conference will agree to this tele-
^'^'l^J"''- gram* (Unanimously.)
'~ Sir WILFEID LAURIER: I suppose that is all that is on the
"^ment^of Programme for to-day?
Business. CHAIRilAX : That is all that we can usefully do, and we will
(Dr. adjourn to Wednesday for the consideration of the special constitu-
tion 01 the Conference.
Will this do for the answer to His Majesty's telegram ? " The
" Prime Ministers of Self-Governing Colonies present their humble
" duty to your Majesty, and desire to acknowledge gratefully your
" Majesty's gracious telegram, which will be a source of great en-
" couragement in their labours.'"
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is very well expressed, Sir.
CHAIRMxVN: I think that is all we can do to-day.
Adjourned to Wednesday next at 11 o'clock.
* The reply from Mr. Chamberlain was in the following terms : —
" Sincerely thank Prime Ministers for good wishes ; am promised
complete restoration to health, in which case hope speedily resume
public work. Meanwhile gratefully appreciate kind resolution of
Conference."
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
SECOND DAY. Second Dav.
17th April,
1907.
Held .\t the Colonul Office, Dowxixg Street,
Wednesday, 17th April, 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G. (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid L.\urier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Bordex, K.C.M.G., Minister of Mil-
itia and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakix, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir William Lyxe, K.C.M.G., Minister of State
for Trade and Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston Churchill. M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secretary,
of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of
State for the Colonies.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,
Joint Secretary.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
CHAIRMAN : The Conference now proceeds to the active busi-
ness for which we have been assembled, and we will deal with the
subjects which have been put down for the first business meeting.
From a study of the former proceedings I rather gather that it has
been the practice at these Conferences to discuss a subject not under
the strict presentation of a resolution, such as you would in a House
of Parliament, but to discuss the subject generally, with, of course,
the resolutions which may have been sent in in view, and then at the
conclusion of the discussion, to endeavour to adjust such a representa-
24 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
rth° A ^T' ^''^^ °^ *^^ decision, or an expression, at any rate, of the views of the
1907. ' Conference, as may be recorded in our proceedings.
~ In this case therefore we start with certain resolutions which
irm n.; have been sent in in reply to the invitation which I addressed to the
various Colonies, and I think it would probably be the most con-
venient course if I asked one of those representatives of the Colonies
who have submitted a resolution to open the discussion. I think
that is in accordance with the practice on former occasions. I do
not know whether those who represent Australia, New Zealand and
Cape Colony have agreed among themselves as to the order in which
that should be done. The first on my list is the Commonwealth of
Australia, and unless it is otherwise arranged I should suggest that
perhaps Mr. Deakin would open the discussion.
Mr. DEAKIN : Subject to Sir Joseph's approval and that of Dr.
Jameson, what I was about to propose was this, to pass by the reso-
lutions as framed, except so far as they furnish material for discus-
sion upon them point by point ; for instance, ours says, " That it is
desirable to establish an Imperial Council." Directly we read that,
the question of title is raised. Would it not be a business-like
method to take first of 'all the question of the title of any future
conference, discuss that and settle it? Then it passes on to say that
the Council or Conference, or whatever it may be termed, shall
" consist of certain members " — take that next, and decide how they
are to be chosen, or the position of other Ministers which we settled
amongst ourselves on Monday. That should be formulated, and so
on, taking point by point the various matters that these resolutions
suggest, dealing with each in turn. It might be necessary to alter
their order slightly, but I fancy that would shorten the discussion.
CHAIRMAN: May I first point out that it puts those who have
not passed resolutions at all into rather an invidious position ? There
is nothing on record and it seems to me with all deference that we
should shorten our proceedings really if we had a general discussion
first and saw how far we were able to get to a general agreement on
the general discussion. If that was done I rather think the adjust-
ment of details would be simpler. If we take the thing at once on
the question of title, we really cannot settle the question of title
without discussing the general constitution.
Dr. JAMESON: I was going to suggest that certain Colonies
have put down certain subjects to be brought forward, and of course
they have thought them of paramount importance. Other Colonies
perhaps do not think them so important, and your objection to Mr.
Deakin's proposal would be met, I think, by taking what has been
put down, and then after these are finished any representatives of
the Colonies who had not brought forward any resolution would go on
to consider what they wished to bring forward to cover the ground,
starting with what we have in front of us, and then practically
taking what would be amendments from those representatives who
had not brought forward any resolution on the subject.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I quite agree with Mr. Deakin that it
would save the time of the Conference, and be more advantageous,
instead of the Australian and Now Zealand representatives sub-
mitting independent resolutions, that we should agree to merge them
in some form so as to endeavour to come to a general understand-
ing.
COLOMAL CONFERENCE, 1907
25
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHAIKMAN: That is the same as I proposed.
Sir JOSEPH WAKD: Yes, if a discussion were to take place
as you suggest, giving an outline of what is in the minds of the
different representatives, it might enable us to arrive at some con-
crete form of expressing our desire upon this important matter.
For my own part I am quite prepared to fall in with whatever is the
best way of arriving at a decision upon it. I would just like to say
that I am of the opinion that it is perhaps a little premature, Mr.
Deakin, to commence to discuss what the term should be. We first
want to see whether we are in accord upon the general principle of
establishing an Imperial Council under some name.
Mr. F. K. MOOR: Would it not promote the object we have in
view if the Colonies who have brought forward these resolutions
would in brief give us their ideas each individually as to what form
this should take?
Second Day.
17th April,
1907.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
PROPOSED IMPERIAL COUNCIL.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Canada has made no suggestion
upon this point. I may say that in our country, as we have stated
in our despatch, we do not view it with much favour, but we ap-
proach it with an open mind. I would at this moment observe
relative to the suggestion of Mr. Deakin that we should take up at
once the first proposal of the Commonwealth of Australia. " That
" it is desirable to establish an Imperial Council to consist of repre-
" sentatives of Great Britain and the self-governing Colonies chosen
" ex-officio from their existing administrations," and that the title
should be the last thing to be determined. We should know before-
hand what should be the functions and the powers and duties of that
Council and define those, and then according to the functions which
were deputed to it the title would depend. It might be a Council or
a Conference or anything you please, but it seems to me that the
very first thing, as Mr. Moor suggests, is that we should settle what
we have in our own minds. For my own part I approach the subject
with a perfectly frank mind, but I think the suggestion made is a
good one, that the gentlemen from Australia, the Cape and Xew
Zealand should give us their views in a general outline, what they
have in mind as to the functions of this Imperial Council which they
think ought to be established. That would bring forward at once the
whole scope of the discussion, and we could determine then how we
could agree, but I do not think that we should give it a name unless
we know what it is.
Mr. DEAKIN : If it be your wish, Lord Elgin, I have no possible
objection to state oii-hand, and shall endeavour to do so in as few
words as possible, the general purport of this proposal. Our discus-
sion will probably resolve itself into some such analytical method as
I just ventured to suggest. We found in the despatch from the pre-
vious Imperial Government a proposal to adopt the title " Imperial
Council." This we understood was intended to be conferred upon
the existing Conferences without any substantial alteration in their
powers, or in the principle of their constitution. We were prepared
to mark our appreciation of the intention by the adoption of that
title. It appeared to us a fitting cognomen for such a body, and if
its cojistitution were elaborated to soines light degree it might have
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
Second Day.
17th April.
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
been a judicious thing to accept it even at this stage; but the inten-
tion of this general resolution of ours was to retain these Confer-
ences precisely as they have existed — ^^this Conference as it now
exists — unaltered in personnel or in procedure, except so far as we
might with advantage connect its several meetings during the inter-
vals of its assembling, and provide for a more efficient means of
keeping its members in touch with one another, and with the Govern-
ment of Great Britain. Our idea was not to endow the new body
under whatever title it was known, with any legislative or e.xecutive
power whatever, nor to diminish its immediate dependence upon the
Governments of the Dominions represented here; but to provide that
it should meet periodically, consist of Prime Ministers, discuss ques-
tions of Imperial interest, and where possible arrive at conclusions
to be afterwards recommended to its governments and legislatures.
But it should have no more power than we possess here of itself
putting into effect any decbious at which it might arrive. Conse-
quently, when the despatch of the Prime Minister of Canada was
placed in our hands, and the suggestions derived from the experience
of that government of the connotations of the word " Council "
were put before us, we at once agreed that if Sir Wilfrid Laurier
thought fit to press that view, for our own part there would be no
objection to adopting the title which he suggested instead of that
which we had proposed. We accepted the term " Imperial Confer-
ence " instead of •" Imperial Council." The body we had in view
was a conference that was to have no such powers as, according to
the Government of Canada, are associated in their minds and in the
minds probably of those whom they represent, with the name " Im-
jwrial Council "' which to us would not have meant more than
" Imperial Conference." We are perfectly prepared to accept that
title. I do not need at this stage to detain the Conference further.
Our object is to retain the Conferences as they at present are, in
respect to their authority, to their constitution and to their periodi-
cal meetings. We add a staff, to which allusions will hereafter be
made, for purposes which will then be discussed separately. As to
meeting the expenses of that staff, we propose that it should not be
cast upon the exchequer of this country. Beyond that it seems to me
at all events not essential for us to proceed at this stage. I there-
fore submit that it is desirable to establish an Imperial Council or
Conference. If the word " establish " be taken exception to, because,
as matter of fact, the Conference is alreadj- in existence, I have no
objection to that criticism. What is sought is to insist once more
upon the regular, and, so far as we can, upon the permanent exist-
ence of this Conference. After that we propose a Secretariat with
a view to the consultation through it of the various members of this
Conference or of the Prime Ministers and others who would be
members of the Conference in the intervals between their meetings ;
to enable suggestions to proceed from one or more or all of them
through the Secretariat to each other and to the Government of this
country, in order that questions likely to be dealt with at the suc-
ceeding meeting may be examined some time ahead, and that all
necessary information and inquiries may be made and views ex-
changed, so that the pro^josition, after reflection, may either he
pressed, modified, or abandoned when the Conference is enterod upon.
Under these circumstances, instead of meeting as we do to-day
with only a very imperfect relation to the Conferences which have
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 Z1
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
preceded this, and instead of taking up the questions before us in an Se. (.ml Day.
elementary fashion, we should have an agenda of partly or completelj' ^'^'' qa^-'"^'''
prepared, and sometimes partly digested matters. This would not only ll
save time, but would enable us to approach our conclusions with much Proposed
greater confidence. In the same way, with such a Secretariat after a Ip>P«ii.^I
Conference i.ad closed its labours, the resolutions arrived at would ,,
either be the subject for further inquiry or where the governments Deakin.)
agreed that it was a matter within their scope or their legislatures
agreed at some time jjrior to the next Conference that it was a ques-
tion within their scope, there might be whatever action, small or great,
was called for. The action of the Secretariat would be subject, as I
have always said, to the real authorities without whom no action is
to be proposed to be taken, that is to say, in each self-governing com-
munity, to that community itself; until its assent was given in the
ordinary way by law or by executive act, as the case might be, there
would be no power in this Secretariat to ask for or to direct any
action. The Secretariat would be merely an agency for carrying out
the instructions of one Conference and for acting as an intermediary
at the suggestion of any Prime Minister or any government or gov-
ernments in order to prepare for the next Conference or between its
meetings.
I hope I have not spoken at too great length, but the idea that we
had in our mind was not an extension of power; it was an extension
of inquiry, an improvement of method, a system of obtaining com-
plete information and of enabling us to exchange views with the
Government of this country or with each other. Let me say in con-
clusion that there are some matters of foreign politics, for instance,
which occasionally touch closely, either every Dependency or some of
the Dependencies of the Empire, and amongst them some or all the self-
governing communities. At the present time any communication on
those matters is indirect of necessity, but it is also impeded by other
considerations. We may appear officious; we may appear to be
assuming without sufficient knowledge that some communication of
ours is called for. We desire to be in a position to be able to make
such necessary enquiries in regard to foreign politics as may appear
to us to be urgent and important, to make them direct, to obtain a
reply, and if that reply appears to us to embody any principle, to
communicate through such a Secretariat with the other self-governing
communities asking that they be placed in possession of the same in-
formation ill order that they may consider whether in the interests of
their own people they too should not communicate direct with the
Government of this country in whom the whole control of foreign
affairs and defence rests. I think such occasions would be of rare
occurrence, and do not thinlc they would arise after we had once got
into touch with one another more than once or twice a year, but
when they did arise they might be very vital indeed to some or all of
us. But in all these aspects, what is intended is the continuation of
the present Conference under improved conditions, systematized pro-
cedure, larger information, and whatever extra dignity or prestige
would come from a higher standing, but especially in regard to the
greater eflSeiency that we might expect from these developments.
What we propose is the continuance of these Conferences with addi-
tions which in no way alter their character, principle, or dependence
upon the legislative action of our respective governments.
COLOXIAL COSFERENCE, 1907
Second Day.
17th April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sir WILFRID LAURIEE : Have you thought of the composition
of the Secretariat?
Mr. DEAKIX: Tes, to this extent. My own idea is that, if pos-
sible, the Secretariat should consist either of persons new to the pub-
lic life of this country, preferably trained by Colonial experience, and
possibly with some official experience here, but, as far as possible,
men who had been selected for their knowledge of the outer Empire,
if I may so term it, of its great dominions, and of the methods of
government obtaining there.
Sir WILFRID LAURffiR: To be appointed by whom?
Mr. DEAKIN : By the Conference practically, for the Secretariat
would be its agency. It would necessarily require to be attached to
some department, and when the proper time comes I shall hope to
make a suggestion, without ofFence to the Colonial Office and certainly
not to its chief, which is that there appear to us to be a great many
practical reasons why it is desirable that the Colonial Office in the
future should be what it was at its commencement, simply the office
for the Crown Colonies. Any communications that the self-govern-
ing Colonies or self-governing Dominions have with the Mother
Country should pass through another channel preferably to the Prime
Minister of this country direct. The number of despatches from the
self-governing portions of the Empire is, I think, comparatively small
and would require only a small office. Their communications of a
regular character, exchanging information, and so on, are frequent.
The Prime Minister's attention would he rarely called for, but at
present we suffer, and suffer constantly, because ninety-nine hun-
dredths of the time and attention and ability of this office must neces-
sarily be devoted to the enormous area, the immense population, and
the innumerable problems which surround its administration of dif-
ferent communities scattered all over the world. It appears to me
that it would be for the advantage of the Colonial Office, and it would
be to our advantage, if we were dissociated altogether from the De-
pendencies which are governed, and admirably governed, if I may say
so, from this office. Taking the commimities that undertake to govern
themselves, from which the despatches are rare and which require
very much less attention, it would be to their advantage to be asso-
ciated, as I am daring enough to suggest, with the Prime Minister
himself, who I understand, although his responsibilities are almost
beyond description, is not burdened with much administrative work
at the present time. I did not intend to enter upon that now, but as
you asked me, Sir Wilfrid, I have answered your inquiry.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think it is important in the discus-
sion. When this subject was first put to the Colonial Govermnents
by the despatch of Mr. Lyttelton, the suggestion was that an Im-
perial Council should bo created; and, as we imderstood it in Canada
it meant this — and I think that was the thought that Mr. Lyttelton
liad in his mind at the time— that tlio Council should be composed
iif the members of the present Conference or of the Conferences
wl\ich have taken place up to this date, that is to say, of the Prime
Ministers of all the self-governing Colonies, assisted by a permanent
body to sit here in the City of London, similar to the Imperial De-
fence Committee. If that idea had been accepted, that there should
be here a permanent Imperial Civil Committee instead of an Im-
perial Defence Committee, the title " Tmprrinl Council," I think.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 29
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
would have been appropriate. We demurred at once in Canada to Second Day.
the idea of creating such a committee as was suggested, but we iq^^'^'''
thought it preferable to keep the Conferences to their present com- 1
position, without any more power than they have at the present time; Proposed
and therefore we suggested that the name '' Conference " should be Council,
retained, substituting for '" Colonial " the word " Imperial," which (gj^ Wilfrid
I think is more in accordance with the fitness of things. These Con- Laurier.)
ferences are really Imperial in their character, since they are not
composed only of the self-governing Colonies, but of the representa-
tives of the Imperial Government also. I am very glad to hear from
Mr. Deakin that he has no objection to that. The next question, as
I understand — the idea of having such a council as was suggested
by Mr. Lyttelton — is not pressed.
Mr. DEAKTN: We have never pressed it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: No. I thought that the Imperial
Government would press it; but it is not pressed, as I understand.
Therefore we are brought to the idea of having a Secretariat, sitting
here in the City of London. Even in this modified form I am far
from being agreeable to it. The Imperial Conference, if the name
is accepted, cannot sit here more than once in four or five years;
it cannot sit every year, I think everybody admits, nor every two
jrears; three years even would be too proximate a date. I may say,
for my part, I thought even four years was too short a space of time,
in view of the fact that nobody can come to this Conference except
at great inconvenience; and supposing it were decided to sit every
four years, you would have here the Secretariat, and during the four
years the Secretariat to whom? As I understand, to the Prime Min-
ister, according to Mr. Deakin's proposal. The Prime Minister of
England is a pretty busy man. I am the Prime Minister of a very
small Colony, large in territory but small in population, and I am
a pretty busy man, and I imagine that if the Prime Minister of
England could add some 24 hours to the 24 hours of the day it would
not be too much for him ; and I think if you are to burden him with
any more duties, I see some diflBculty there. The Colonial OflSce,
which is already divided into departments, is the proper department
to deal, under ministerial responsibility, with the self-governing
Colonies or Crown Colonies. I would not like to pass by the sug-
gestion of Mr. Deakin. I simply give my impression, and, as I said
a moment ago, I approach the subject with an absolutely open miiad.
I am simply pointing out some of the objections which I see at this
moment.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I would like to say a few words upon this
important matter. Lord Elgin. Whether the organisation is termed
a council or a conference to my mind is not of very great importance
so long as the position and duties of the Council are defined, and
speaking for my Colony I lay it down as one of the cardinal prin-
ciples of such an organisation, that there should be no interference
with the present rights and powers of the governments of those self-
governing countries; and in that respect if we are safeguarded, as I
am perfectly sure everyone is desirous of doing, what we term the
meeting of the Prime lifinisters does not matter. If it is covered by
the term " Conference," in deference to Sir Wilfrid Laurior's wish I
have not the slightest objection, and I shoxild be only too glad to
fall into line with it. Why I preferred the word " Council," is be-
30 COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Second Day. cause it indicates jwrmaneuey. and it is with the object of having
I'^'l^.P''''' a permanent institution established that I think we ought if we can
_" — '- to arrive at some decision of a definite nature in dealing with this
Proposed matter.
CounciL Now, upon the point last referred to by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and
(Sir .Joseph <iealt with by Mr. Deakin in the course of his speech (upon which
Ward.) I should like to add I have had no conference with Mr. Deakin), I
should like to say, in regard to the suggestion of the method of
dealing with Governments of the Crown Colonies and those of the
self-governing Colonies, our self-governing Colonies are increasing
in population and in power daily; during the next 10 or 20 years
there is no man sitting at this table can contemplate what those
countries, among them the Dominion of Canada, are going to attain
to, and I am persuaded in my own mind, that although the work of
the Colonial Office — and I have had a fairly long experience as a
Minister of the Crown in our country — with regard to our self-
governing countries has been of the finest possible character, there
is, however, a feeling, in the minds of administrators certainly, that
we occupy a very different position to those Crown Colonies. We
regard the Crown Colonies as being governed and controlled by the
British Government entirely, with the advice of the experienced re-
presentatives who go out as Governors to those Crown Colonies. We
look ujKin them as portions of the British Empire governed from
England, and under their complete control and direction, subject to
the advice, as I say, of the Governor resident there. Our self-
governing comitries are not in the same position. We are responsible
to our own people and govern ourselves, and we want to be regarded
as we always have been, thoiigh working through the Secretaries of
State for the Colonies. We shoidd be in a different category to
the Crown Colonies. I think the term " Colony," so far as our
countries are concerned, ought to cease, and that that term ought to
apply to the Crown Colonies purel.v, and that those of us who are
not at present known as Dominion or Commonwealths, should be
known as States of the Empire, or some other expressive word, so as
to make a distinction as between the Crown Colonies and the self-
govei'ning Dependencies. I would not presume for a moment to sug-
gest how the work of the Colonial Office should be arranged, but if
we were put under a separate category, and necessarily with a separa-
rato Administration for the working of our self-governing countries,
that would be a great improvement, and. although perhaps not im-
portant in the minds of some people, would be a source of consider-
able satisfaction, certainly to our country. I should like, at all events
before we finish our discussion, to say something further upon the
suggestion made by ^fr. Deakin, with a view to arriving at an under-
standing about it.
For m.v own part, I want to say that whether it be called an
Imperial Conference or an Imperial Council, in m.v opinion it should
consist of the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Colonics, the
Prime Minister of England, and the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, That is the opinion I entertain, and I have had that in
my mind all along, "Kow, I .suggest that we should consider the
propriety of including the Prime ^linister of England upon the Im-
perial Conference for the reason that it does in the eyes of the out-
.side world impress upon the jniblic nt large the fact that the
Govornraent of the Old Land is part ami parcel of the Conference.
COLOls^IAL CONFERENCE, 1907
31
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
An ordinary individual who takes an interest in the carrying on of
the affairs of a country like the one to which I belong cannot draw
a line between the individnal designations of the ^reat Ministers of
the Crown in the Old World, and I believe it would not derogate in
any way from either the functions or position of the Secretary of
State for the Colonies and it would add materially to the importance
of the Conference if the Prime Minister of this country ,were in-
cluded.
I want also to say that I think the functions and powers of the
Council should be consultative and advisory only on everything —
that is on all matters affecting the Empire or Imperial matters in
which the States would be in any way concerned, and that it should
have no executive or acbninistrative powers.
Upon the question of the Secretariat, I am inclined to think that
that is a matter that ought to be deferred for final settlement, and
it ought to be deferred for the reason that if this Conference arrives
at the decision that it is desirable to have a permanent Imperial
Conference, then I think the present Prime Ministers should confer
as to the best means of having the gap between the times of the
periodical meetings every four or five yeiars filled up. The meetings
should not be too frequent, their frequency would weaken them to
a very material e.Vtent and detract from their influence, but I think
that the manner of the filling up of the gap by the permanent officer
who is to be here to represent such an Imijerial Council, requires
to be verj' carefully considei'ed before we arrive at a final conclusion
about it. I am not favourable myself to the creation of what one
•might term a separate office, carried on in the Old Country as an
intermediary between the respective Prime ^Iinister.s during the
recesses. I should feel rather disposed to consider whether the self-
■governing countries could not mutually agree to one or two of the
more important representatives of their Colonies resident in Eng-
' land, that is, the High Commissioners or Agents-General, becoming
the recognised channel through which communications should pass.
I want to make it quite clear that the communications which we now
are in the habit of sending from the Colonies through the Governor
to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, should remain absolute,
as at present, for the purpose of dealing with all matters of Imperial
concern to our country about which from time to time we require
to communicate, because I think we should be, above all things,
strenuors in our desire to preserve our entity or individuality in the
matter of the control of our own country. But a perm'anent Im-
perial Conference would in my opinion be invaluable. Questions
which it would be to the interest of all of us to confer upon, of
importance to the different self-governing countries, could, in the
recess, be subjects for correspondence. I see no reason why, by
correspondence upon many matters of vital concern to our countries,
we should not really j-ierpetuate the advantages that ought to accrue
from the periodical meeting of practical men. !My opinion is that
during the recesses enormous good to our resijee'tive countries would
accrue, if we were able to recognise that we had all the right to com-
municate, confidentially, if we wished, through the Secretariat upon
matters that might be of immense consequence to our countries.
Our country is very anxious and willing to assist the Old Land
in the event of trouble arising, to do so voluntarily by men or by
money, and, I think, always would be re'ady to do its share in fight-
Second Day.
i:th April,
190?;
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
I Sir Joseph
Ward.)
32 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Second Day. ing for the defence of the Motherland in any portion of the world.
^^*'l9OT^'^'^' ^® ^''°' *^ ^"^P ^^^^^ °^ ^^^ possibility of being drawn into what
'- one might term Continental troubles with England itself. We want
Proposed to have a distinct line of demarcation drawn in that respect between
Council. t^6 responsibility we accept of our own free will and the responsi-
(Sir Joseph bility that may be imposed upon us without our having had any
Ward.) opportunity of conference or discussion with regard to it. To my
mind that is one of the matters upon which such an Imperial Con-
ference or Council permanently established, with the understanding
that the members of it would correspond ^ath one another during
the recess from time to time should circumstances require it, would
be beneficial, so that we might take joint action for the purpose of
helping or working together in critical times. To secure a position
of that sort I regard as of very great importance, and we in New
Zealand should have the benefit of the advice of a gentleman, say
in the position of Sir Wilfrid Laurier himself, or of any other who
might when the time comes take his place, which I hope will be a
long way off. What an enormous advantage it would be for 'a
country like New Zealand to have the opportunity of conferring
with, perhaps. General Botha or Doctor Jameson, which we could do
with some authority if we had a permanent institution properly
established. As it is at the moment, in carrying on the Governments
of our respective countries, we may have communications from the
Secretary of State for the Colonies. We act to the best of our
judgment ; we act without consultation with the Premiers of the
other self-governing countries. Occasionally the Prime Ministers of
the Commonwealth and of New Zealand confer as a matter of dis-
cussion beforehand, but still we act independently. With the recog-
nition that we had some sort of — I do not say power, because power
would not be the proper word — but the opportunity of consultation,
if we bad an organisation by which we could look upon as our right
to confer with each other, then, I think, a recommendation coming
from us after mutual discussion and consideration, perhaps by cable,
would be invaluable in arriving at a decision upon very critical and
important matters.
I do not propose to take up the time of the Conference further
at the moment, except to s(ay that I do hope that we will be able to
meet the difficulties or to meet the views of Sir Wilfrid Laurier on
this question. I recognise, as the representative of New Zealand,
that unless we have the full concurrence of the representative of the
great Dominion of Canada with us upon the proposal to establish an
Imperial Conference permanently, it would be quite hopeless for us
to expect to arrive at anything like a working basis which would be
of any use to us. For my part I should go a long way to meet any
suggestion Sir Wilfrid Laurier has to make in the hope that we may
do something before we part on this occasion towards establishing
an institution that ought to bo not only helpful but invaluable to
our respective conntries in carjj'ing on their functions. We must all
be in agreement regarding the establishment of a Council or Con-
ference.
There is a nuittcr to which I would only allude and then I will
conclude. At the present moment wo are all anxious to try to assist
the intricacies of trade development; we are all desirous — at all
events, the self-governing Colonies are — to enter into reciprocal
treaties with one another on matters of trade. If we had an Imperial
COLOSIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
33
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Conference or Council established of which the Prime Minister and Second Day.
Secretary of State of England were members, that is a matter which ^"*''|qj^7'"^'''
might, with enormous advantage both to the Old Land and to the
newer ones, be taken up by the Imperial Council, and be gone into
with a view to see what anomalies and what difficulties exist on the
side of the Mother Country and what anomalies exist in the Colonies,
to enable something like a unanimity of decision being arrived at.
My opinion is that we should give and take upon matters of great im-
portance so as to bring the Mother Country into line with us, on a
difficult question of this kind. For my own part I do not see why the
Imperial Council should not consider among other things, with fiill
information furnished to it from the Secretariat, the desirability of
omitting some items that we are deeply concerned in from the pro-
posed tariif between our respective countries, possibly foodstuffs. That
is a matter which a Conference, sitting as we are now, cannot go into
the detail of, but we could get an immense amount of information con-
cerning it which would be of great use to us in arriving at a decision.
New Zealand has taken up the matter of a Council at the instigation
of the Secretary of State for the Colonies in the despatch referred to
by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, sent out in 1905. The three previous Confer-
ences to the present one have all felt, though they have derived prac-
tical good from the interchange of ideas between the representative
men in charge of the aflfairs of the respective countries, a certain
amount of hopelessness owing to the difficulty of putting into some
practical effect the decisions arrived at at the casual Conferences that
have been held.
I merely wish to say upon this question' that if it is possible as
the result of the discussions for us to arrive at some basis upon which
we could construct an Imperial Conference of a permanent character,
then I think the meeting of the representative men of the respective
countries would certainly have done good.
Dr. JAMESOX: Lord Elgin, I would first say that I recognise
what Sir Joseph Ward has said, the advantage of having unanimity
upon this subject, or any other subject which comes before this Con-
ference. Nothing will be done unless we are all unanimous, and I was
very glad to hear the extremely mnderate and very lucid statement of
Mr. Deakin on the question of Conferences. I was glad to see from
that lucid statement that he was able to remove from the mind of Sir
Wilfrid Laurier the idea that he had any elaborate scheme to propose
with regard to the constitution of this so-called Imperial Council,
which I may say at once I would be glad to see changed in name to
the Imperial Conference. We did not wish to initiate any new scheme
whatever, as Mr. Deakin has exiilained ; all that we desired was to
make more efficient the work of the Conference, as the Conference
stands at present.
I noticed that Sir Wilfrid Laurier still practically stands to the
objection to the second portion of the scheme, that is the Secretariat,
the new office to be created in England, Sir Joseph Ward says he
does not want to see any new office created in England; at the same
time there is a desire that there should be some connecting link be-
tween the Conferences during the three or four years when we do not
sit, and unless you have something in the form of a Secretariat I do
not see how you will get that desirable link. Then I do not think Mr.
Deakin exactly expressed his answer to Sir Wilfrid Laurier. Sir
Wilfred laurier asked : " Who is it to be the Secretariat of — the
58—3
34
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
Second Dar.
17th April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Dr.
Jameson, t
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
" Prime Minister of England l " and Mr. Deakin said : " Yes," but
I do not think Mr. Deakin meant that exactly; he meant it should
be the Secretariat to all the Prime Ministers of the Empire, — the
Prime Ministers of England and of all the self-governing Colonies.
My idea of the Secretariat was that each of those Colonies should
appoint its representative upon it, the Prime Minister of England also
being represented upon it. I think this the right arrangement as far
as the self-governing Colonies are concerned, because, after all, at
the back of the whole of this is the fear of the expense of any new-
body here and the possibility that that body might grow in power
so as to interfere with the powers as they exist in the self-governing
Colonies themselves. I think we are all unanimous in this room, and
I know how strong the feeling is that we ought not to delegate any
possibiHty of any power away from the self-governing Colonies, but
that we ought to increase their powers. What we are anxious to do is,
of course, to get each individually into constitutional equality with-
the Motherland; it may be a very disproportionate equality, but that
is our idea, really that we are going to be nations, not separate from
the United Kingdom but nations within the United Empire. But it
is to be nations; so I want to disabuse General Botha's mind, he
having mentioned the subject to me a couple of days ago, and also the
mind of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, from the idea that we are not as strong
as they are on this subject of maintaining absolute control over local
affairs in our various Colonies. With that idea, to show that no
power could accumulate to this Secretariat, I would propose, at first
at all events, that that Secretariat should be composed really of our
representatives in this country at the present moment, who are en-
tirely under our control so far as we are concerned. In the case of
Canada, New Zealand and Australia, it would be the High Commis-
sioners, and in the case of the other Colonies it would be our Agents
General. Then, as to the work. What would they do during the three
or four years with no guiding hand? I think there will be plenty of
work for them to do — in fact, I consider each of these High Commis-
sioners or Agents General probably would create a department with
perhaps one or two clerks under the Agent General to do the investi-
gation work that would be required in preparing what I call the brief
for the coming Conference. Till then the Secretariat would consist of
either the present or other representatives appointed by the various
Colonies themselves, entirely under the authority of those various
Colonies, and that would form, I think, a beginning only of the link
between the Conferences as at present established. I understand the
1902 Conference passed a resolution that the Conference should be
every four years, or at all events, should occur within four years, and
I have no doubt that before we part we will pass a resolution that we
should meet every four or five years, or whatever the term may be.
On that same point again Mr. Deakin said that in preparation for
the Conference the Secretariat would work out these subjects as, I say,
the brief for the Conference, and at the same time in working up this
brief various subjects might be proposed which on investigation it
might be found it was not worth while bringing forward, and they
would be abandoned. Of course that Secretariat would have no power
to abandon or create anything; they would bo abandoned, as Sir
Joseph Ward suggested, by correspondence between them and all the
Prime Ministers, and by the authority of the Conference, although
the Conference might be scattered at that particular time all over
the Empire.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
35
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN : Precisely.
Dr. JAMESON: Still the whole power is left with the Confer-
ence, and I may say I contemplate that this Conference will not
attempt to get any further than merely consultative work even in the
Conference itself; there is no possible increase of power. As I say,
it is a kind of seed which may grow. Of course, we may have visions
a thousand years hence of a closer union, but we want no more than
that at the beginning. We want no new departure. We know per-
fectly well how shy any one of the Anglo-Saxon race is of a new
departure, and all we want in the self-governing Colonies is that this
union of the Empire should gradually grow, but you must put the seed
in first so that it may begin to grow. What we want is what I think
the Secretary of State for the Colonies suggested — a Unk between the
Colonies.
General BOTHA : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I have read with
great interest the speech made by Mr. Chamberlain at the last Con-
ference, and there is one point that specially drew my attention, and
that is this : "' It is clear that the object would not be completely
" secured until there had been conferred upon such a Council execu-
" tive functions, and perhaps also legislative powers, and it is for
" you to say, gentlemen, whether you think the time has come when
" any progress can be made in this direction." Now, when I read
this I thought that if the word " Council " was to be attached, as
suggested by Mr. Deakin, to the word " Imperial," this might make
an infraction upon the rights of responsible government of the vari-
ous self-governing Colonies. On this point I am conservative, and
I do not see any reason for departing from the name which we have
to-day. I should like to build up, but I should like to build slowly.
The circumstances of South Africa to-day are such that we represent
three Colonies there. The fourth Colony, will, I hope, also be repre-
sented at the following Colonial Conference. I think it is a good
thing for us to discuss the point, but I do not think we should arrive
as yet, at this Conference, at a final conclusion on the matter, al-
though I am inclined to identify myself in a great measure with the
suggestion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier. On the question as to the
Secretariat, I think the suggestion made in connection with that,
with all due deference to Mr. Deakin, is not quite happy. I do not
quite understand what the duties and functions of those people will
be. I also fear that we might afterwards create more work for our-
selves with the officials of the Secretariat than with the Colonial
Office itself, and I want to maintain the bond of connection as
directly as possible between the Colonial Office and the self-govern-
ing possessions. I believe each Colony has its Agent-General here,
and I think we should modify the instructions to the Agents-General
in this respect, that they should have authority to prepare the agenda
for us, to work up the facts for us. That is all I have to say.
CHAIRMAN : Gentleman, I am sure anyone representing the
Imperial Government must have listened with great satisfaction to
the discussion that has taken place, in one particular, at all events,
because it is quite obvious that every word that has been spoken and
every suggestion which has been made has been made in the spirit
of increasing the unity and strength of the British Empire; and I
feel very much, that if that is so (and I think it is so), there is no
fear, as Sir Wilfrid Laurier put it on Monday, that this Conference
58— 3J
Second Day.
ITth April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Dr. ^
.Tameson.)
36
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 190~i
Second Day.
17th April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Chairman.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
will be a failure. We may have differences of opinion with regard
to particular methods in which we ought to carry out the purposes,
but if we have the same end in view, I am sure we shall endeavour
to adjust our differences so as to secure that end. Therefore, I do
not think it is necessary for me to go so much into detail as at one
time I thought might be necessary with regard to the various resolu-
tions which were sent into us from the other Colonies.
We meet in the first place under the resolution of the last Con-
ference; that, no doubt, is in the recollection of the Conference, but
I have it here before me. Since that time my predecessor, Mr.
Lyttelton has sent out proposals which have been referred to in this
discussion. I mention them with all respect; they have received
support from several Colonies, but Mr. Lyttelton himseK, after the
despatch which came from the Canadian Government, agreed that
these proposals must be deferred at any rate until they had been dis-
cussed here by the Conference which is now assembled. All there-
fore that I would say with regard to them is this, that no doubt the
resolutions which are on our paper for consideration to-day, do take
up both sides of the proposal which Mr. Lyttelton put forward, and
that, therefore, we have in a sense those proposals as well before us.
Now it appeared to me when I first saw these resolutions that there
were considerable differences between the views taken by those who
proposed them. In the first place I came to the conclusion, and I
am glad to have it confirmed by what Mr. Deakin has said, that tlie
object of the Goverimient of the Australian Commonwealth was to
preserve the chief characteristics of the Conference as they have
hitherto existed, but I was not quite so sure with regard to the reso-
lutions from New Zealand and the Cape, and I thought that it was
possible to read in them a proposal to establish in place of the Con-
ference a permanent body or Council, which was. of course, an en-
tire alteration from the principle under which we assemble.
But from what Sir Joseph Ward has said, and I think also from
what Dr. Jameson ha.s said, I may assume that this is not
the intention of those Governments; they do also, as Mr. Deakin
has put it, desire to preserve these Conferences — I will not sa.v
exactly on the same basis, but at any rate on the same principle on
which they have existed hitherto as Conferences, as the Prime Min-
ister described them, between the Imperial Government and the self-
governing Colonies through the representatives of the Imperial Gov-
ernment and the Prime Ministers nf the Colonies. I notice, again,
that the Australian resolution does say distinctly that the repre-
sentatives of the self-governing Colonies should be chosen ex officio
from their existing administrations, and I think I gathered from Mr.
Deakin that by that he does mean the Prime Ministers essentially.
Mr. DEAKIN : The phrase " ex officio " was used only because
it might be physically impossible for the Prime Minister to be there,
in which case a second Minister would take the place of the Prime
Minister and speak for him.
CHiVIRMAN: Quito so. New Zealand does not enter into any
qualification; but I do not wish to press that, or any other difference
between the resolutions, unduly. I quite expected to have, as we
have had. full explanation from the representatives of the Colonies
when thoy came, and I do not underslmul that on that point there is
any difference between Sir Joseph Ward luul ^Ir. Deakin.
CULOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 SI
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Now 1 come to a very important matter indeed, and tliat is the Second Day.
functions of what is called, in the resolutions, the Imperial Council, ''^HqA^ '
but which, from what I have already said, really means the Confer-
ence. New Zealand, again, gave no definition of the functions, but Proposed
the Australian resolution did define them and defined them in a very Connoil.
interesting manner, because it puts it very distinctly that the objects (Chairman.)
of the Council are to discuss at regular Conferences matters of
common Imperial interest, and went on to say: ''and to establish
" a system by which members of the Council shall be kept informed
" during the periods between the Conferences in regard to matters
" which have been, or may be, subjects for discussion." Discxission
at the Conferences is at the root of the wtole business. I venture
to think that the point is of importance, for this reason, that on the
one hand, so long as we are dealing with the question of the methods
by which we may improve the machinery of the Conference system,
we are doing one thing, but as soon as we begin to discuss any ques-
tion of establishing a body with powers independent of the Confer-
ence, we are doing a perfectly different thing. That second thing is
a new thing. It is not what we have had, and I am afraid it would
be very difficult for me to agree, on behalf of His Majesty's Gov-
ernment, to the establishment of a body with independent status or
authority. It would be contrary to the freedom and independence
of which the Prime Minister spoke at our meeting on Monday.
Therefore, it was that we did feel with Canada that there might be
under a proposal of this kind, a danger to the autonomy of us all —
not only us here, but the seK-goveming Colonies as well. In the
self-governing Colonies, as with us, I need scarcely remind the
members of the Conference, the basis of all British government is
the responsibility of Ministers to their Parliaments; not only, as
here, our responsibility to the British Parliament, but your respon-
sibility to your Parliaments. I venture to think that to do anything
to establish a body that might interpose in any way between Ministers
and the Parliaments to which they are responsible might almost
endanger the liberties which ought to be inviolate. I for my part
find it difficult to imagine that a body in any way independent of
Ministers here or in the Colonies, established in this country, could
be in accordance with the principles to which I have referred. I
know it is said that nothing executive is intended, and it is to be
nothing but advisory. I ,nm afraid I do not think that that entirely
removes the objection. We have, even in private life, sometimes
had experience of the candid friend, the man whose advice we cannot
avoid listening to, though, perhaps, it does not always strengthen
our hands in the process, I venture to think that there would be a
relative danger, but of course Tinder all the circumstances a much
more import.int danger, in the establishment of a body in any way
independent in connection with these Conferences; and I think I
niav sav for my cnlleagues that we all think Ministers must be
secured in the direct responsibility which they hold to their Parlia-
ments.
There is another point which Sir Joseph Ward referred to, and
which T would jiist like to touch on for a moment, and that is that
we already have a constitutional link between the government of this
country and the governments in the Colonies through the Governor
himself, I hesitate to say much about that in the presence of my
colleagues, who have had much greater experience of the working of
38 COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Second Day. it than I have, but I do venture to say that the Governor's ]X)sitioii
1907. ' ^^ ^^ important one, and his influence is often very great, if I may
make one personal allusion, I speak from a recollection of chapters
Imi«>Hal ''^ ™^ °^^ family history, and from my experience of the last
Council, eighteen months in this Office. You must recognize, I am sure,
(Chairman.) every one of you, that we endeavour to send out to the self-governing
Colonies men who are of a standing and calibre to fulfil those duties.
A change in the relations here might make that very difficult, and
there would be a danger, I think, of the influence of the Governor
being destroyed, or, at any rate, his opportunities of influence res-
tricted, and of course it. would not be very difficult to make the
Service less attractive to men of ability and energy. I do not wish
'to press that point in any way too far, but I think it is one worth
bearing in mind in the discussion of this question.
In what I have said hitherto, I have, no doubt, rather assumed
that I was speaking of what I imagine possibly might be the idea
underlying the New Zealand resolution as to an Imperial Council
in place of this Conference. I repeat that I do not think that that
is practicable, at any rate in the meantime; I would not put it aside
altogether. A time may come when it may be practicable. I have
dwelt on the importance of the link of responsibility between govern-
ments and their parliaments. I can appeal to those here who have
had experience of federations that that is borne in mind when the
federation itself is called into existence. It is to a Federal Parlia-
ment that the Federal Government is responsible. If we ever in
future ages come to a federation of the Empire, which is a dream
that men have entertained, it must proceed, I maintain, on the same
principle, and whether the time will come when science and the
inventor may make that practicable — and one feels a doubt whether
one ought to put any limit to the triumphs'which await science pnd
the inventor — still, at any rate, that is not a part of the discussion
to-day, and we must deal with the problems as we find them. I
would only just say, therefore, that with regard to this meeting I
understand the Conference is, with practical unanimity, agreed — I
think I may put it as far as that — to accept the designation of
" Imperial Conference." I think, as far as I am able to speak for
His Jraj(?st.y's Government, that we would be perfectly prepared to
accept that designation, and to allow the matter to stand as regards
that branch of the subject, on that footing. I think that designa-
tion originally came from Canada, and, therefore, I suppose I may
assume that Canada would carry us so far. I think that can be
taken as one result, but I should not like to limit the resolution to
that. The Prime Minister spoke with emphasis on Monday of his
desire for some means of '" maintaining the impetus."' This is really
a discussion of business relations, not quite on the same grade,
perhaps, as the former part of the subject, but still of immense im-
portance. I should like, with all deference to Mr. Deakin, to say
that I am not prepared to admit that I am ashamed in any way of
'the submissions which have been made to this Conference. It is not
only the Colonial Office, but every department, I think I might say,
of the British Government, who have been concerned in laying before
the Conference what I venture to maintain are a remarkable series
of papers. It has been our business in the Colonial Office, of course,
to co-ordinate and arrange them, but we do not profess to take credit
for more than it has been our duty to do. 'What I hope is that the
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. tOOt 39
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Conference will now, or, at any rate, when the business of these Second Day.
meetings has been completed, feel that the Colonial Office has done ^""loj^y^'" '
all they can to put the subjects before them orderly and with fuU 1
information, and will, so far, at any rate, express approval of the Proposed
efforts of my friends the Secretaries, who have been mainly responsi- Council
ble in this matter. But it is said that even if that is so this work is (Chairman )
ephemeral ; when the Conference is dissolved the organisation disap-
pears and the thread is lost. I am not quite clear that I should even
admit that altogether. I think, in justice to my office, and injustice to
the other offices of tiie British Government, that if you study these
papers — for instance, this paper laid before you describing the pro-
gress of events — you will find that a good deal has been done on a
number of subjects between the last Conference and this. I am not
in the least inclined to dispute that there would be an advantage in
more continuity, but I would say so under one condition, that I
think that any organisation established for that purpose must be
under a responsible head. We must remember that many, if not
most, of the subjects which come before the Conference are highly
confidential. They are matters which deal with information from
official sources. If we advance so far as to approach a remedy, that
remedy must be obtained, either in this country or in the Colonies,
by the efforts of the legislature.
I may refer to some observations that have Ijeen made in the
course of this discussion with regard to the position of the Colonial
Office. It has been suggested that the Colonial Office should cease
to be in communication with the responsibly-governed Colonies, and
should restrict its energies to the Crown Colonies. No doubt at one
time most of the responsibly-governed Colonies, if not all of them,
were Crown Colonies, and the change has come gradually. To a
certain extent that has been recognised in the Office itself. Within
the last year we have been brought face to face with the fact that in
the Transvaal, and very shortly in the Orange River Colony, we have
two additions to the number of self-governing Colonies, and some
re-organisation of our office would be desirable, and we have had it
under consideration. I do not know whether this Conference will
call upon the Colonial Office to provide for the continuity which it
desires. If the Conference should so call, I venture to reply that
the Colonial Office will do its best to meet it. I cannot answer the
question as to whether the Conference will so act, but I should not
like to pass this opportunity of thanking Sir Wilfrid Laurier for an
expression of his opinion of the work done, and the spirit in which
work had been done by the Colonial Office during the long period
of his experience. It is a testimony which we value very much. I
would venture on my own part to say that my experience, so far as
it goes, would certainly be in the same direction, ^nd I say that
with the greater freedom because I am not a permanent member of
this Office; I am only one of those political will-o'-the-wisps who
pass through it and have gone. I have found here, I am bound to
say, in the members of the staff of this Office, an absolutely single-
minded devotion to the interests committed to their charge, and ^a
determination to deal with the affairs of the Colonies as they come
to them without fear, or prejudice, or favour.
Now, gentlemen, I say that if the Conference will allow us we are
quite prepared to undertake to do our best to devise methods for
securing the continuity which is desired. As I said, I have had this
40
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
Second Day.
17th April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Chairman.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
matter under consideration, and I might, perhaps, have elaborated a
scheme for submission to this Conference, but I thought that on the
whole it was better not to forest r 11 the Conference. I desire to get
suggestions from the members of the Conference, which I shall, of
course, be only too pleased to take advantage of so far as I can. But
if tlie principle is accepted, further conferences of, perhaps, a more
confidential character, may take place during the course of our pro-
ceedings, and the matter may be arranged. If this could be done it
appears to me that we should secure the greater part, if not the whole
of the propositions put before us in the resolution from Australia.
If the Conference should lay stress upon any subject the consideration
of it would be early and would be continuous ; any inquiry would be
completed, and when the inquiry was completed, then the subject
would be fully prepared with the fullest details, as Mr. Deakin desires,
for the next Conference; or, what I think is a suggestion which
should not be overlooked or disregarded it might in many cases with
great advantage be dealt with, as the shipping question has been dealt
with this year — by a subsidiary conference which could meet with less
inconvenience, no doubt, to the Colonies and Colonial Ministers, but
which, as that Conference to which I have referred shows, may have
great results. The Prime Minister called your attention to that on
Monday.
I do not know that I can add very much, and I hope I have not
detained the meeting at too great length as it is. I have endeavoured
to put frankly before you the difficulties which his Majesty's Govern-
ment would feel in establishing a body independent of the Govern-
ment of this country. May I say one word with regard to the sug-
gestion that this secretariat should be under the Prime Minister. I
have only to bear my testimony to what Sir WiKrid Laurier has said
as to the extreme strain which would be put on the Prime Minister
by such a course. I cannot think myself that it can be the case that
the business would be of small dimensions. I hope and believe that
the communications between ourselves and the Governments of the
responsible self-governing Colonies will for long be constant, and that
we shall act in concert, and the more we do so, the more important it
is that the business should be transacted in a large office where we can
command full strength.
An observation was made, I think, by Sir Joseph Ward, with re-
gard to the opportunities that this system which has been adumbrated
might give for communications between the Colonies themselves. I
do not quite understand why there should be a difficulty now. Accord-
ing to our present system, I think when a subject arises between us
and any one Colony, which may be of interest to others, it is our
practice to forward the communication to the others, and, as far as I
know, there are inter-communications between one Colony and an-
other. I only say that as an explanation arising out of the observ-
ation Sir Joseph Ward made.
I do not know what I can suggest as to the next step, as we have
all expressed our opinions on these matters, but whether we are at
this moment in a position to propose or prepare a resolution for
adoption, I am not quite sure.
Sir WILFEID LAURIER: ily Lord and gentlemen, as I under-
stand the discussion so far, upon the first point, that there should be
nn Imperial Conference, there seems to be practical unanimity. Upon
the second point, as to how it should be composed, that is the question
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 41
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
next for coiisideratiou. 1 talie it that the Imperial Conference is Second Day.
practically a representation of all the self-governing Governments to ^"''lo^.P'""'
meet periodically with the Imperial Government here in London. L
There may be some discussion and valuable exchange of opinion as Proposed
to how this Conference should be composed. I listened with a great CouncU
deal of attention to the suggestion made by Mr. Deakin, and, I think, /g- wjf -j
supported by Sir Joseph Ward, that whereas in the past these con- Laurier.)
ferences have been presided over by the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, the Prime Minister should be joined in order to affirm the
fact that it is, as I ventured to express it the other day, a conference
between governments and governments.
Next, as to what was originally the thought, that there should be
an adjunct body to sit here in London permanently during the three
or four years that the Conference would be absent from London.
This point is reduced now to having a secretariat. There is a good
deal of difference of opinion amongst us upon that. I have said, and
I can only reticat that I approach this subject with a very open mind.
I have listended with very great attention to the observations of my
three colleagues, Mr. Deakin, Sir Joseph Ward, and Dr. Jameson.
They protest, and I am sure they are quite sincere about that, that
such a secretariat would not have any work to do more than is implied
in the word " secretariat," that it would not be an independent body,
but a dependent body. I know that is the intention. But I cannot
bring myself to see how the organisation of such a body is to be
anything else hut that of an independent body. Whom are they going
to advise? Whose suggestions are they to receive? On what authority
are they to act? Wliat work shall they do? What advice shall they
give? Shall they give independent advice? What reports shall they
make? I can conceive that a body of that kind might be instructed
to prepare some work here and there occasionally, but during four or
five years they would be here all by themselves taking the suggestions
of nobody, so far as I can see. It was suggested by my friends. Sir
Joseph Ward and Mr. Deakin, that they should be under the control
of the Prime Minister, but even that I am not satisfied is practicable.
If Mr. Deakin can satisfy me that it is practicable, I am prepared to
listen to his observations, but at the present time I am not convinced
that this is a practical step which would meet with any substantial
result. On the contrary. I believe such a body would in the necessity
of things be always inclined to act independently, and I share alto-
gether the view of Lord Elgin that for the present no such body
should exist, but that, on the principle of responsible government, no
one should give advice of any kind except a man who is responsible
directly to the people.
These are the views I have to present at this moment, and of
course we approach all these points in a confidential manner at this
table, being ready to exchange our views and receive suggestions. As
^[r. Deakin and Sir Joseph Ward have given a great deal of attention
to these matters, if they have any further suggestions to make, I, for
my part, shall be very willing to receive them.
Mr. DEAKIN: Lord Elgin, the emphasis which you laid upon
the assertion of the principle that you could not consent to the
creation of .any body which should be independent of the Govern-
ment of this country is one which will be cordially re-echoed by every
representative from the self-governing Colonies. We could take
back no proposition more unpalatable to those whom we represent
42
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, lOOl
Second Day.
17th April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
CoBncil.
(Mr.
Deakln.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
than one for the creation of an authority which would have control
over them and not be subject to their control. No such suggestion
was ever intended. Certainly it was never present to ruy mind, and
certainly it would be repudiated by our Parliaments. I do not, how-
ever, quite apply the same doctrine as Sir Wilfrid Laurier did. He,
at all events, had not excluded it from his mind, when dealing with
the question of the secretariat. Before coming to that second branch
of the subject, let me hope no remark that I made would bear one
interpretation which you appeared to think possible with regard to
the submission of work to this Conference. I have to say that the
first Conference, so far as I am aware, which has been in any way
properly equipped, has been this Conference. You have been good
enough to add to the information supplied some other information^
I think at the suggestion of some of us — most of it already complete,
which is very valuable. I had not certainly any intention of imply-
ing any defect on the part of the submissions to this Conference
under present conditions. The difficulty is that the result of those
submissions reaches us just as we are arriving or have arrived in this
country, and I candidly confess that with the best will iu the world
and with long hours of wakefulness,, and constant occupation, I have
not yet been able to read a single line of them. On coming to
London, especially after a long interval, being met with the over-
whelming kindness which all visitors exj^erience, and also met with a
rush of official and business communications of one kind or another,
which have been apparently suspended for the purpose of constitut-
ing a shower when we arrive, it has been perfectly impossible, at
least so far as I am concerned, to give that valuable information the
consideration which it deserves. One of the objects of the secre-
tariat is that not only that the information should be obtained up to
date, but that it should be available at a time and in a place where
it could be properly weighed and criticised beforehand. I have no
doubt as we proceed we shall be able to make use of it.
CHAIRMAN: Of course some part of the information can
scarcely be prepared until the last moment.
Mr. DEAKIN: Some portion of it, but it is necessary, if we are
to come here equipped for work, that it should be iu our possession
much longer than these valuable summaries have yet been.
With respect to one allusion your Lordship made to this very
interesting paper, which is called " Notes upon the action taken
" pursuant to the resolution of the last Colonial Conference of 1902,"
there is on page 2, the resolution of 1002 quoted " That so far as
" may be consistent with the confidential negotiations on treaties
" with Foreign Powers the views of the Colonies affected should be
" obtained, iu order that they may be in a better position to give
" adhesion to such treaties." There is a statement that a despatch
was sent to the Colonial Governments, and a memorandum on the
means of facilitating sucli communications is to be laid before the
present Conference. What I should like to be informed, and am not
informed by this memorandum, is whether any treaties of any kind
have been negotiated since that resolution was carried, and. if so,
did any communications pass with any and which of our govern-
ments in relation to them.
CHAIRMAN: Do you want an answer off-hand?
(Chairman.)
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 43
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN : I should not object, but do not expect it. There s,. ond Day.
have been treaties. My memory, I think, recalls a E 'iimanian com- ''"^q^-P""'''
mercial treaty, and I do not rec.ill from me^i.ory — being here absent '
from my Office — any communication with regard to it, though I by Proposed
no means assert that no communication was sent or received. There Council
are one or two other treaties which I think have been negotiated
since that date, on which I should be glad to be supplied with in-
formation to supplement this interesting paper.
CHAIRMAN : I am informed by the Secretary that treaties are
sent out in a general despatch.
Mr. DEAKIN : If I might have a list of the treaties sent out to
us, I should be obliged. Further in the course of his remarks, Sir
Wilfrid Laurier alluded to my suggestion of the Presidency of the
Prime Minister at future Conferences. That is one of the condi-
tions which appear to me to be worthy of deliberation by this
Conference, so soon as we pass from the general question. It appears
to me that this suggestion would raise the status of the Conference;
it would place the Governments represented here in precisely the
same position in every respect, and is therefore of value and of
weight. If the Prime Minister of Great Britain presided either in
fact or by deputy at meetings of future Conferences, there is no
doubt that greater prestige would attach to them where prestige is
most important, especially in the outlying dominions. That is part
of the proposal which we made as to ex-officio representation. It is
not intended in any way to ask for particular persons or in the least
degree to reflect upon any other members of His Majesty's Govern-
ment. The Secretary of State for the Colonies would no doubt be the
deputy whom for most purposes the Prime Minister would select. But
if the Prime Minister did not expressly select a deputy, perhaps the
character of these meetings would be emphasised by the adoption of
the proposition which I think fell from my friend on the left at the
previous meeting, that the senior Prime Minister present from over
the sea might very fittingly preside at some, at all events, of the
meetings of conferences of this kind in the absence of the Prime
Minister of this country, and perhaps in the absence of his imme-
diate or usual deputy. That, too, may appear to some to be a com-
paratively formal question, but if it were needed to convey by means
of an object lesson to the dominions beyond the sea a true percep-
tion of the generosity with which we are treated here, and of the
footing on which the Government of this country has always con-
sented to meet us, I do not think any object lesson more expressive
than that could be obtained. I do not dwell upon these points as of
importance in themselves, but the number of people who are able to
be impressed with an idea, or with a suggestion of a principle, only,
or most effectively, by some such means is great. I am sure the
Secretary of State for the Colonies does not suspect me of any other
motive than that of adding to the dignity and usefulness of this
body.
The suggestion which I have the temerity to make as to the asso-
ciation of the self-governed communities with the Prime Minister,
was, I left fully aware, open to severe criticism, but it is recom-
mended very strongly for special reasons. It is a symbol; it is a
recognition parallel with, and exactly of the same character as has
been embodied in the phrase that this is a meeting of governments
44
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1901
Second Day.
17th April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
with governments, or Prime Ministers with Prime Ministers, as Sir
Wilfrid Laurier happily put it. Again, the idea passed through my
mind, though I have not endeavoured to work it out in detail, that
as this Conference was one of governments with governments its
Secretariat is intended to represent all those governments. It should
therefore be presided over, being in this country, by the Prime
Minister of Great Britain. I think it was again my friend on the
left who put that.
Dr. JAMESON: The Conference is presided over by the Prime
Minister, but the Prime Minister would not preside over the Secre-
tariat.
Mr. DEAKIN: He must, according to my thinking, to this ex-
tent, because the Secretariat is in this country and he is the Prime
Minister of this country and practically the only Prime Minister
always in this country. Sir Wilfrid Laurier takes the practical point,
that there must be a head, and that with us means a responsible
Minister, to whom this Secretariat should look. Even if it were
constituted on the plan which Dr. Jameson suggested, there must still
be some person to whom constant reference may be made and whose
yes or no in the conduct of affairs is final. There must be executive
authority. If an office of that kind were established, the head of it
could only be the Prime Minister of Great Britain. He is the only
Prime Minister available for that purpose. It would be an office of
all the Governments, so to speak, but as an office under the active
executive direction, so far as that is needed, of the Prime Minister
himself.
Dr. JAMESON : Under him as representing all the others. You
can put it that way.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is matter of discussion. I am endeavouring
to reply to Sir Wilfrid Laurier's inquiry, at the same time appropriat-
ing my friend's arguments and suggestions.
Dr. JAMESON: The Prime Minister, as representing all the
Prime Ministers.
Mr. DEAKIN: He represents all the Prime Ministers, but be
primarily represents his own Parliament, and the Parliament of this
country would require to be satisfied that their Prime Minister's
authority, so far as it went, was actual and not nominal. There must
be some authority over the Secretariat, and the proper axithorit.y ap-
pears to mo to be the Prime Minister of England. I admit, with Sir
Wilfrid Laurier, that the tasks of Prime Ministers, even in outlying
countries, are great. Sir Joseph Ward, Dr. Jameson and no doubt
all round this table, would bear almost universal testimony that none
of us having experience of that office find the day long enough, or our
capacities for work equal to what we wish. But that is so in all
communities, and is only proportionately greater in the greatest of
communities. Every Prime Minister in every part of this Empire
knows perfectly well that he or l^is successor must be prepared, as the
years pass by, to take more and more responsibility. It becomes a
matter of selection, putting some responsibilities aside, and adopting
others in their stead. The mere fact that a proposal means more
work for an already over-burdened man, if that were the final argu-
ment, would cripple our political development altogotlior. Lord Elgin
said with perfect accuracy that there would be, and in fact there are,
a great many communications passing between the self-governing'
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 45
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Colonies and any central office in London. When I said there would Second Day.
be only a small number I meant a small number really calling for the ''^''jg^'"^'''
personal attention of the Prime Minister himself. As you, Lord -
Elgin, are aware, a great number of our despatches are requests for Pioposed
information or replies to requests for information, or deal with mat- Connc'il
ters of that kind, which, so far as you are concerned, need not reach ,-^^
you at all, except in the sense that you are satisfied your officers do Deakin.)
their duty.
CHAIRMAN : I think I made an observation with reference to
that point that it would mean the creation of a new office of consider-
able size.
Mr. DEAKIN: The idea we have of it would be that those mat-
ters would still go to the departments which now deal with them.
There is no idea of appointing an inmiense secretariat to cope with
them. All the departments of this Government would remain — the
Colonial Office, the Foreign Office, the Board of Trade — and matters
of inquiry and ordinary communications would go to those depart-
ments as a matter of course. What I thought might be attached to
the Prime ^Minister personally were those despatches which have
respect to the exercise of the self-governing functions of self-govern-
ing communities, all great constitutional questions or matters involv-
ing constitutional questions. Those happily do not arise frequently,
and would not therefore involve so great a tax upon his time as might
at first sight appear to be implied. As I said at the beginning of this
discussion, I have hesitated to speak at the length that the subject
really demands, because I thought we were rather approaching a gen-
eral agreement to be followed up by dealing with points detail by
detail. I apologise for having taken so long, but cherish these ideas
believing they can be realised at once with great profit and with a
still stronger conviction that ultimately the development of these
Conferences is likely to be in this direction. I do not belittle the work
of the Colonial Office — it is simply gigantic — but the Colonial Office
finds it necessary to omit India. It was recognized to be perfectly
impossible for this Office to include the administration of that vast
country with its enormous population. In the same way the Colonial
Office must expect to see the self-governing communities outgrow its
capacity for control, which is not capable of being indefinitely ex-
tended. I think the Secretary of State has told us that he has as
much work as he can transact at the present time, yet, so far from the
calls upon him diminishing from this great array of countries whose
names I see emblazoned on the outside of those wall maps. I know,
and we all know, that these calls are increasing, owing to the strides
being made in the development of those countries. I had the pleasure
of reading one speech of yours, Lord Elgin, and another by your able
associate, Mr. Winston Churchill, which conveyed to the people of
this country and our people some proper sense of the immensity of
the great Crown colonies of which we confess we do not possess much
knowledge, any more than the people here possess knowledge of us.
You have an enormous task of administration there. But the sticcess-
ful administration of those Colonies calls for methods of adminis-
tration and treatment and begets an attitude of mind, based upon
presuppositions and preconceptions, which cannot be escaped from
but which do not at all attach to self-governing states, which are
quite foreign to us, and give us a general sense of discussing a ques-
tion with persons who have already made up their minds upon it on
46
COLOXIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
Second Dav,
17th April,
1907.
Proposed
Imperi?!
Council.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
another basis altogether. Consequently, I wish to say that it is no
reflection to say that this great department has already ample and
growing work on its hands apart from the seK-governing communities,
and that in course of time it must expect to see those communities,
first of all relieving the Department by undertaking a good deal more
for themselves, and next, by sending their despatches to the Prime
Minister, where they will not be jostled in a Department over-bur-
dened with administrative work alike and yet different in character.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : In reference to the resolution moved by
Xew Zealand, which appears to have conveyed the impression, as I
infer from some observations that have been made, that we wanted
to have an Imperial Council of an executive character, or with some
authority to act independently of the British Government or of our
own Governments, I would just like to say that on receipt of the
despatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies asking what
resolution the New Zealand Crovemment desired to submit, I sent a
memorandum to His Excellency the Governor without any resolu-
tions at all. I gave him a heading of the subjects that New Zealand
thought should come up here for consideration. My own view was
that it was not desirable to submit resolutions from our Colony, and
it was only on further application from the Governor, requesting
that it should be sent in the form of a resolution, that I responded
to it. I wanted to make that clear, because the resolution I submit
is " That it would be to the advantage of the Empire, and facilitate
" the dealing with questions that affect the Oversea Dominions, if
" an Imperial Council were established to which each of the self-
" governing Colonies could send a representative." I may say that in
public utterances of mine in my own country I have made it clear
that such a Council would be a Council of advice, and of advice only
and I have not suggested at anj- time in our country that we should
be responsible for the creation of an Imperial Council which should
have executive authority, because I am personally opposed to it. I
believe it would be an impossibility for us to ciirry on satisfactorily
our present system of self-government if any such body were created
with any such authority, between our Government and the British
Government. I do not wish the impression to go abroad that I have
proposed establishing anything of the kind, because i have not. In
that respect I wish to say that the criticisms of the general views put
forth in reference to the body that might be created in England, so
far as I am concerned, really do not apply, and I wish to add that
the people in my country are not favourable to such a suggestion.
CHAIRMAN: I think I put it hypothetically.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is so ; but a hypothetical observation
when seen in cold print might convey an impression that the Colony
itself was desirous of doing something which we are not desirous of
doing, to which I am personally opposed, and to which I have never
been favourable. Then I do not quite understand, and I should like
to have information upon it, what was conveyed by the Secretary of
State for the Colonies when he nsked the question " will the Colonial
Office provide for the continuity desired? "
CHAIRMAN: Will the Conference ask the Colonial Office to
provide the continuity?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Do you mean the expense?
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
47
Proposed
Imperial
Council.
(Sir
J oseph
Ward.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHAIRMAN : No. I mean that we should provide the organisa- Secoud Day.
lion. What I meant was that if the Conference approved we were ^^"'jg^^"^'''
prepared to prepare a scheme for providing the continuity which is
aimed at in these resolutions.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: As a permanency, do you mean?
CHAIRMAN: Yes, as a permanency.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Then, I now quite understand the point.
I only want to make it perfectly clear as I tried to do during the
course of my observations — and I was limiting my observations
necessarily with a view to having a preliminary discussion upon this
matter — that, so far as New Zealand is concerned, we have never had
anything but the highest respect for the gentlemen who from time to
time have filled the office of governor in our country. We have found
the governors sent out from time to time, men of the highest integ-
rity, and their desire has been not only to help the Old Land, but to
help the land to which they have been sent as representatives of the
King. In that respect I am not suggesting for a moment a perma-
nency of advice as between the respective Prime Ministers of the
self-governing countries and the representative appointed by the Old
Land itself. In regard to the machinery that has existed up to now,
we are not reflecting upon it in any way whatever, and, last of all, I
neither conveyed, nor have I ever had any impression that the Colo-
nial Office and the important executive officers of the Colo-
nial Office have done anything other than their duty in every possible
way and with the greatest possible satisfaction to the people of our
country. I do want to say, however, on that suggestion of Lord
Elgin, that, of course, I was aware of the system of communications
being forwarded to the respective governments, and also of their
having the right to communicate with one another. That is the
case; but there are subjects upon which, under existing conditions,
except privately or semi-officially, I, for one, would not presume to
send a communication to the Prime Minister of another country.
There are some matters which I think we ought to have the right to
confer with one another upon. Again, I am not finding fault with,
the present machinery or system under which communications are
sent to our governments. Far from it; but in our country there are
matters which crop up, which, in their general bearing, are of im-
portance to ourselves, upon which I want the opportunity and the
right to have a consultation with, or advice from, other Prime Min-
isters if I so desire. The aU-important fact exists that the present
system is incomplete, and if a permanent Conference is established,
including the Prime Minister of England, we could be in consulta-
tion with each other on matters of consequence to our countries
which are growing at an enormous rate, and which are so scattered.
I wish to make that clear, because I recognise the difficulties in es-
tablishing a basis to create an Imperial Conference, and those diffi-
culties have presented themselves right away in the course of this
discussion. I want, as far as I am concerned, to make it clear that
I am broaching this question, not with the object of being put upon
my defence from the point of view of the present work of the Colo-
nial Office, because that is not in question so far as I am concerned.
On the contrary, I think they do the work in a way that no one can
reasonably find fault with; but the point is rather the difficulties
created by our self-governing countries growing at such an enormous
48 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Second Day. pace, and, there being a desire on their part to be brought into closer
190?''" contact with each other and with the Mother Land, and the real issue
is can we establish some permanent institution to enable us to dis-
Proposed guss important matters of mutual concern, and above all, for the
Council, strengthening of the Old World and the New World too. So far as
<Sir .Joseph New Zealand is concerned, I wish at once to say that whatever deci-
Ward.) sion is arrived at as to how the work should be carried on in the
interval between Conferences, we are prepared to adopt any sugges-
tion made to bear our full proportion of the cost entailed.
ilr. DEAKIX : The secretariat will not stand on a popular basis
unless that responsibility is accepted. The contribution may be cal-
culated on any proportion you like.
Sir WILFRID LAHRIER: The matter of cost can easily be
decided. The question is, whether such a body as is contemplated
would really be conducive to efficiency for the carrying oiit of the
objects we have in mind.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Supposing a secretariat were
established you would utilise that as a machine for the inter-colonial
communication passing between one Colony and another in which the
Imperial Government were not directly involved?
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.
Dr. JAMESON: And also where the Imperial Government is
involved.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Quite so; but that would be
one of the functions of such body.
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, a sort of nexus.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: I have listened ver.v patiently this morning,
and it seems to me that there is a considerable amount of dissatisfac-
tion as regards the want of continuity of the interest which obtains
with respect to these Conferences every four years. It is exceedingly
interesting to have listened to all the tentative proposals made here
this morning, and I think we should, perhaps, get a better purview of
the whole position if Lord Elgin would give us his idea of the mach-
inery that he would suggest. \'/e would then get a general view of
the whole position, and I think we could come to a conclusion more
intelligently after having all the proposals laid before us.
Dr. JAMESON: I was going to suggest the same thing. Some
of us have adumbrated a scheme of our own which certainly has not
met with universal approval all round. You, my Lord, have not a
scheme yoursglf, but you have practically indicated to us that His
Majesty's Government is in favour of doing something to bring about
continuity and making a link between the Conferences. We are not
talking about a link between the Imperial Government and the Gov-
ernments of the self-governing Colonies, but a link between the Con-
ferences. You have indicated that the Imperial Government would be
inclined to do that, and wo have indicated a link — at least, Mr.
Deakin, Sir Joseph Ward, and I have — by means of the secretariat
which we have ventured to sketch out. Certainly that has not met
with approval from Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and only a qualified approval
from General Botha. If you will help us with some idea of how the
Colonial Office will be able to link up the Conferences, we will be able
to get on further.
CHAIRMAN : I said at the beginning that I supposed after the
COLOSIAL CONFEREXGE. 1907 49
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
discussion, following the practice of other Conferences, some attempt Second Day.
would be made to arrive at a resolution, and, therefore, I thought it ^"th April,
my duty to draft — purely for consideration, of course, — a resolution L
which I am prepared to read. I may say that we base this on a resolu- Proposed
tion of the last Conforenee with the necessary alterations. This is |™perial
the draft which has been prepared : " That it will be to the advantage (Chairman )
" of the Empire if (Imperial) Conferences are held every four (or
" five) years at which questions of common interest affecting the
" relations of the Mother Country and His Majesty's Dominions over
" the seas may be discussed and considered as between the Govern-
" ment of the United Kingdom and the Prime Ministers and Govern-
" ments of the self-governing Colonies. The Secretary of State for
" the Colonies is requested to arrange for such Imperial Conferences
" after communication with the Prime Ministers of the respective
" Colonies. In case of any emergency arising upon which a special
" Imperial Conference may have been deemed necessary, the next
" ordinary conference to be held not sooner that three years thereafter.
'■ That it is desirable to establish a system by which the several Gov-
" ernments represented shall be kept informed during the periods
" between the Conferences in regard to matters which have been or
" may be subjects for discussion, by means of a permanent secretarial
" stail, charged, under the direction of the Secretary of State for the
" Colonies, with the duty of obtaining information for the use of the
" Conference, of attending to its resolutions, and of conducting corres-
" pondence on matters relating to its affairs. That upon matters of
" importance requiring consultation in common either in this country
" or in the Colonies 'between two or more of the Governments which
" cannot conveniently be postponed until the next Conference or
" which involve subjects of a minor character, subsidiary Conferences
" should be held between representatives of the Colonies and of the
" Mother Country specially chosen for the purpose."
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I assume that in this resolution New
Zealand, now known by the term " Colony," will be included in the
expression " Dominion," which I think it ought to be.
Mr. DEAKIN: I think it would be advantageous if we could
have that in print and commence with it to-morrow morning.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I was going to make the very same
suggestion — that we should have it in print, so as to have the oppor-
tunity 01 looking into it.
CHAIRMAN: We approach the hour for adjournment, and per-
haps the Conference would like to adjourn now and consider this
resolution to-morrow morning.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : Could we have a copy of that resolution before
it comes up to-morrow?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I beg to submit to the Conference the fol-
lowing resolution : " That this Conference desires to express its re-
" gret at the death of the late Mr. Seddon, and its sense of the loss
" the Empire has thereby sustained." No words of mine are necessary
to commend this resolution, expressive of our regret at the demise of
a great Imperial and Colonial statesman. I am sure that will be the
opinion of us all.
CHAIRMAN : Certainly.
This was carried unanimously.
Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock.
5S-^
50 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
3?rA^Al- THIED DAY. •
1907.
Held at the Colonial Office, DowNraa Street,
Thursday, 18th April, 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EAEL OF ELGIN, X.Q., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, 6.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. "W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fish-
eries (Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir William Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of State
for Trade and Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cai)e
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of
State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.LE., on behaH of the India
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,) j . . „ , ■
HT n TIT T..„x,„^x. mm t Jotnt Secretaries.
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., J
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also present:
Sir S. G. Clarke, Q.C.M.G., Secretary of the Committee of Im-
perial Defence.
Captain J. R. Chancellor, D.S.O., R.E., Secretary of the Colo-
nial Dnfcnce Committee.
Sir WILLIAM! ]>YNE: May I be allowed to ask n question?
CHAIRMAN : Certainly.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Yesterday I triod to listen to the discus-
sion which took place; I could not hear it very well, and I want to
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 51
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
know exactly what my position, at any rate, is at the Conference. Third Day.
If it is to sit and listen I might as well be somewhere else. I am l^*'' April,
sitting a long way away from my Prime Minister and I cannot com- L
mnnicate with him when the discussions are going on; and what I iSirWilliam
want to know, Sir, is whether it would be out of order if I, or any Lyne.)
one who desired to say a word or two upon any question, were either
to ask to be allowed to do so or to do so. There was a matter yester-
day which I did not understand was completed until I saw it this
morning in reference to the word '" Imperial." I wanted to say a
word or two about that because I do not agree with it unless the
word '■ Imperial " is explained as to what its intended meaning is.
All I want to ask you, Sir, now, is exactly what position I hold at
the Conference. I imderstood we were to be full members of the
Conference, but I did not feel so yesterday.
CHAIRMAK: I think, Sir William, you were not present when
we were discussing this on the former occasion.
Sir WILLIAM LYXE : I was, part of the time.
CHAIRMAN : What I understood — and I speak in the presence
of my colleagues — the position to be was this, that in future we
would not maintain the absolute rule which was laid down at the
last Conference by which the membership of the Conference was con-
fined stHctly to the Prime Ministers themselves, but that we would
admit to the Conference Room freely any Minister belonging to the
Governments of the Colonies who accompanied their Prime Minis-
ters. They were therefore to come into the room and to be entitled
to sit at the table, but I also suggested, and I think it was accepted
by the members of the Conference, that we should continue the prac-
tice, that their presence was to assist the Prime Ministers and that,
therefore, it depended on the subject under discussion which of any
number of Ministers in attendance should take part in the particular
discussion, and that it should be an honourable understanding
between us that not more than one Minister from each Colony
should give assistance to his Prime Minister at one and the same
meeting. I think that correctly represents the state of affairs. If
there is anything in which I have not correctly represented it perhaps
some one will correct me.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: You will see it is quite impossible for
me to confer with my Prime Minister, and, therefore, I cannot be of
any assistance to him.
CHAIRMAiST: With regard to places at the table, I am entirely
in the hands of the Conference, but as soon as any question came up
on which a Prime Minister wished to confer with his minister we
would place him next to his Prime Minister. I thought on this occa-
sion as it was a question of the constitution of the Conference itself
it would be more convenient that the Prime Ministers should sit near
this end of the table, but I am entirely in your hands in that respect.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I do not want to seem persistent, but
the position that I feel myself placed in is this: I am present, my
mouth is shut. I have to take all the responsibilities of what takes
place here, and I do not feel at all disposed to do it under those con-
ditions.
Sir WILFRID LATJBIER: The position I took up was that the
Prime Minister should be assisted by their colleagues. That was my
58— 4J
52 COLOmAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Da^. view from the first, and it is still my \'iew. My view was that any
'8th April, Prime Minister who had the benefit of the presence of his colleagues
L here in the city, would be very much more satisfied if he had the
(Sir Wilfrii! assistance of those colleagues at the Conference.
Laurier.. g.^ WILLIAM LTJSTE : I cannot hear.
Sir WILFRID LATJEIEE: I say that the position I, for Canada,
took up was that the Prime Ministers should have the privilege of
being assisted by their colleagues, that was my view from the first.
I put it to the Conference, but I did not press it to a conclusion as
there seemed a difference of opinion prevailing: but so far as I am
concerned you are welcome to take part in the proceedings as if you
were the Prime Minister himself.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : My feeling, if I may express it, is that I
came from Australia expecting to take part in this Conference to a
certain extent. I am here to take all the responsibility which I will
have to bear, and the records will show whether I am present or not.
but I am not allowed even to say two words, excepting it is a case
where I might be asked to come here, and I think it would be better
not to take that responsibility unless I can sit close to my Prime
Minister, where I should have liked to be yesterday.
Dr. JAMESON: It seems to me. Sir William Lyne. that Lord
Elgin has explained that you have a perfect right, and I understood
the Conference to agree that the Prime Ministers would not on any
particular occasion be assisted by more than one; but it is between
the Prime Minister and the colleague how much the Prime Minister
should do, and how much the colleague. We have admitted that the
Prime Minister can have his colleague talking upon one motion, so
long as it is one only, as much as the Prime Minister himself if he
likes; so that I think Sir William Lyne is really part of the Con-
ference and entitled to speak.
Sir WILLI Ail LYNE: I am only a small part. T am not half of
myself quite.
■ Dr. JAMESON : Half of your Prime Minister.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : All these arrangements are temporary.
We are discussing the constitution of the Conference, and that is a
thing to be settled, which is before us yet.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I did not want to say much on any but
one or two matters, but at the same time I wanted to know exactly
the position I am in because I do not want to get up and say any-
thing and be called to order. I desire to know beforehand whether
or not I would be in order if I wanted to interject something or
speak, I do not know how to get by my Prime Minister, but if I
was able to talk to him at the table it would obviate a very great deal
of the objection I have. Sitting so far away from my Prime Minister
so that I cannot confer with him places me in a very awkward posi-
tion, a position I was never placed in before and I am not going to
be now.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not see any objection to Sir
William Lyne sitting next to Mr. Deakin.
[Another member of the Conference was understood to say that
both Mr. Dciikin and Sir W. Lyne could speak on any one subject.]
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I do not like to disturb anyone, but I
do not wish to b;ive a feeling without expre.ssing it.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 53
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
FUTUEE CONSTITUTION OF THE CONFERENCE. Third Day.
18th Apru,
CHAIRMAN : May we proceed ? We came yesterday to the point '_
at which a draft resolution was submitted by myself and at the re- Future
quest of the Conference it was circulated for consideration by the *-°°o/'^^°°
Prime Ministers before this meeting. It will be for the Conference Conference
to say whether they would desire to consider this in the same form 'Sir William
as we did yesterday, that is to say in the form of a general dis- ''"*'
cussion, or whether they would now proceed to deal with it more in
detail, that is to say by the paragraphs into which it is divided. I
may have myself OTie or two suggestions to make with regard to the
different parts of it and I have no doubt other members will, but I
might perhaps be permitted to say this much at the beginning that
after the meeting I thought it desirable to inform the Prime Minister
as to the views expressed by, I think I may say, all the members
of the Conference, that it would be desirable that the Prime Minister
of the United Kingdom should be designated a member of the Con-
ference, and I think it may be satisfactory to the Conference to
know that my right honourable friend would not raise any objection
to that course being taken if the Conference should think fit. If
that was done I would venture to suggest — and I think it is better
to mention it now, because it carries out the idea — that the wording
might be a little altered in order to make that effective, and perhaps
I might read the first paragraph. " That it will be to the advantage
" of the Empire if the Conferences to be called Imperial Conferences
" are held every four or five years, at which questions of common
" interest affecting the relations of the Mother Country and His
" Majesty's Dominions over the seas may be discussed and considered
" as between His Majesty's Government and the Governments of the
" self-governing Colonic*. The Prime Minister of the United King-
" dom will be ex-oiScio President and the Prime Minisers of the self-
" governing Colonies ex-officio members of the Conference. The Sec-
" retary of State for the Colonies will be an ex-officio member of the
"Conference, and will take the chair in the absence of the President.
" and will arrange for such Imi)erial Conferences after communication
"with the Prime Ministers of the respective Colonies." That would
give practical effect to the suggestion.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Lord Elgin, would there be any objection
to commence this Resolution by affirming the desirability of estab-
lishing a permanent Imperial Conference? My own view, looking
forward to the work of regular Conferences, is that we should at this
Conference give an affirmative expression to the establishment of a
permanent Imperial Conference, and if you would agree (it is on
the lines really of what is proposed in the Resolution) I would
suggest that we should commence it by stating that " in the inter-
ests of the Empire it i> desirable to establish a permanent Imperial
Conference."
The CHAIRMAX: What is the meaning of the word "per-
manent " ?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The meaning of the word "permanent"
is to affirm permanent Conferences at regular periods. There is no
constitution for a Conference; if it were possible to frame a Consti-
tution by which a Conference could be set up the word " permanent "
would be unnecessiry as the constitution itself would imply per-
manency. In the absence of a Constitution I think we ought to
54
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Third Day.
18th April,
1907.
Future
Constitution
of the
Conference.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
afSnn permanency or continuity in some way, so that at all events
the public could understand that this is intended to be a permanent
Imperial Conference. I do not attach very great importance to the
actual word " permanent," but I think up tiU now it has been
looked upon as a sort of irregular assemblage of the responsible
heads of the Governments of the different parts of the Empire, and
in my opinion it is desirable to state that it is a permanent Im-
perial Conference.
Sir WrLFRID LAUEIER : Do you not think that is met by the
new draft ? Would you please read it again, Lord Elgin ?
CHAIEMAlSr: " That it will be to the advantage of the Empire
if Conferences, to be called Imperial Conferences, are held every
four or five years, at which questions of common interest affecting
the relations of the Mother Country and His Majesty's dominions
over the seas may be discussed and considered as between His Ma-
jesty's Government and the Governments of the self-governing
Colonies. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will be ex-
officio President, and the Prime Ministers of the self-governing
Colonies ex-ofpcio Members of the Conference. The Secretary of
State for the Colonies will be an ex-officio Member of the Conference,
and will take the chair in the absence of the President, and will ar-
range for such Imperial Conferences after communication with the
Prime Ministers of the respective Colonies. In the ease of any
emergency arising upon which a special Imperial Conference may
have been deemed necessary, the next ordinary Conference to be held
not sooner than three years thereafter."
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, I think that does carry it out
clearly. Sir. That is really a definite proposal to have a permanent
series of conferences every four or five years; that resolution, if
passed, will, I think, meet the point I have been urging.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: You cannot have any higher
sanction for the Conference than the resolution of the previous Con-
ference.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is so; I am perfectly satisfied.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I am perfectly satisfied also with the
draft as far as it goes, as far as it has been read, that the Conference
should meet periodically; but I would like to suggest, on the lines
of the suggestion made by Sir William Lyne, that it would be greatly
to the advantage of the members of the Conference if they could
have the advice of their colleagues. We come here to meet questions
of general interest, upon which the Prime Minister is quite able to
talk for his Government; but there are of necessity questions of a
I)eculiar character which are better dealt with by the Minister of the
particular Department concerned — for instance, questions of war,
questions of navigation, and questions of emigration. I feel that
upon all these questions it is greatly to my advantage that I have my
colleague, who is the Minister of Militia and Defence, and my col-
league who is the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. I feel also, the
loss of my colleague, the Minister of Finance. Those gentlemen
come for the very purpose, and they can simply, as we have done in
the past, talk upon these peculiar subjects in which they are more
directly interested. But their position is rather awkward, because
they have simply to dance attendance, having nothing to do, although
COLO'S I AL COSFERENCE, 1907 56
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
they are qualified to speak more even than 1 am, and more than my Third Day.
friend, Mr. Deakin, on the questions of their special departments. ^^^^ A\nil,
It is a position which is somewhat unsatisfactory to them that in
the meantime, as Sir William Lyne pointed out, they have simply Future
to fold their arms and do nothing. Therefore the amendment I Constitution
would suggest would be that the Conference should be composed, as Confeieuce.
stated here, of the Prime Ministers, but with the privilege (I do not (Sir Wilfrid
like the word '' Colonies " — the Governments of the Dependencies Laurier.)
Beyond the Seas) " to be assisted by a certain number of their col-
" leagues," say not to exceed three, for instance. I would not like to
make the body unwieldy in its number, and I would limit the number
to three.
CHAIRMAN: May I make a personal explanation, I did not
mean in any way to go back upon what we had settled, and, there-
fore, the only thing I dealt with here is whether they were ex-officio
members. When I proposed that it should be " discussed and con-
" sidered as between His Majesty's Government and the governments
" of the self-governing Colonies,'' I left it entirely open what the
representation of the self-governing Colonies as of His Majesty's
Government would be.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The Conference should be composed
ex-offlcio of the Prime Minister of England, the Secretary of State
for the Colonies, also ex-officio, and then the Prime Ministers of the
different seK-governing Colonies ex-officio, with the further privilege
for the local governments to determine the number of representa-
tives they should send here, but I would limit the number so as not
to make the Conference unwieldy. If there were five, or sis, or seven
from each government, there would be too large a party to sit at this
Board, but if you were to limit it to a certain number, I would
suggest three, subject to amendment, and I think that would obviate
the diificulty which Sir William Lyne has indicated.
Dr. JAMESON: And that these Ministers should be actual
members of the Conference?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes.
General BOTHA: With the right of voting?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: No; I would only give one vote for
one government, but give the right to participate in all discussions.
Mr. DEAKIN: That differs from the arrangement adopted on
the last day — I forget on whose proposition — that Ministers should
be always heard on questions affecting their Departments and at
other times, but not more than two in any debate.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not mean it for this Confer-
ence, Mr. Deakin, we are settling now the Conference not for this
time, but for the future. We have made special arrangements for
the present case, and this proposal is not to come into force now.
That is what I would suggest for the future.
Mr. DEAKIN: I understand; you propose a different procedure.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Lord Elgin proposes : " That it will
" be to the advantage of the Empire if conferences to be called Im-
" perial Conferences are held every four or five years " (for my part
I think five years a very good period) " at which questions of
" common interests affecting the relations of the Mother Country and
56 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 LDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. " His Majesty's dominions over the seas may be discussed and con-
igffj'" ' " sidered as between His Majesty's Government '' (I like this ex-
pression) '" and the governments of the self-governing Colonies. The
FutTire ''Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will be ex-officio Presi-
Constitutiou ,,,,,_ ,, ... ,, . , ,
of the dent," and I would suggest, not with a view to Iraming the resolu-
Conference. tion to-day, for consideration the point which we have pressed on the
(Sir Wilfrid Colonial Office, but which they could not accede to at this Confer-
ence, so as to obviate the difficulty put before us in a very strong
■way by Sir William Lyne. I feel, and Mr. Deakin must feel also,
the advantage of having the benefit of colleagues here who are to
discuss the questions affecting navigation and affecting war. I miss,
as I said before, the presence of my colleague the Minister of Pi-
nance, but I do not like to bring these colleagues of mine to London
simply to be silent and to speak when called upon.
Dr. JAMESON: I think Mr. Deakin is not quite correct in say-
ing that we consented at this Conference that colleagues should only
deal with matters affecting their own Departments.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is subject to what Lord Elgin has already
said. Lord Elgin has already pointed out that any one Minister can
speak with his chief.
Dr. JAMESON : That would limit it very much as we might
want to bring in the Minister of Defence. I have not been able to
bring the Minister of Defence and I have brought one who knows
most about matters outside that Department.
CHALRMAN : For the advice which the Prime Minister wishes
he ^nust make the selection.
Sir JOSEPH WAKD : Lord Elgin, I should like to say that per-
sonally I am desirous of seeing this Conference reasonably widened,
but I think we want to look at the matter dispassionately and to
approach this subject a little more cautiously. Taking the proposal
of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, whose Ministers I think ought to be here
and upon matters appertaining to their Departments should take the
place of the Prime Minister in discussing them, that I agree with
entirely; but if we are to have the principle established of up to
three Ministers coming from the self-governing Colonies, each taking
part in all debates, then obviously you place the far distant countries
at a complete disadvantage. In the case of New Zealand it would be
impossible for three responsible Ministers to leave our country for the
time we have to in order to attend this Conference; and if we want
to have anything like uniformity of procedure, then I think the
original idea suggested as the outcome of the former discussion that
the colleagues of the Prime Minister who arc here should undeniably
have the right to take part in discussing all matters affecting their
respective Departments, is the right one; but personally, I would
ask for very careful consideration before we affirm the general prin-
cipal for the future government of the Conferences of having up to
three Ministers coming here and taking part in all discussions.
Dr. JAMESON: But not in voting; it is one vote. We want
the best information we can get from any minister.
Sir JOSEPH WAKD : Yes, I concur that one vote is right, but
I can only say that in the case of New Zenlniul — and I am quite pre-
pared to subordinate my own views upon this matter to the general
interests of the Conference — undeniably we would be here with in all
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 57
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
probability one representative at the future Conferences and that one Third Day.
representative vpould have to do the best he could with the difficult '**']oo7'''^'''
and intricate ruatters affecting the various Department that his dif- L
ferent ministers control. „ Future
Constitution
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I see the force of what you say and of the
I realise, that in this respect, Canada has an advantage over all the °^ erence.
other Colonies; we are so near England; we are next neighbours Ward!)^
while you are far away, and I see the force of your objection. I put
it before the Conference for reflection; I do not want to have it dis-
posed of to-day. These are matters upon which I do not want to put
anybody to inconvenience. I have put the matter before the Confer-
ence and I would like you to think it over and perhaps we can take
it up at a later stage.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I quite agree.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: It does not affect the substan-
tive part of the Resolution.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Not at all. The new draft proposed
by Lord Elgin, so far as this part of the subject goes, satisfies me
completely. It meets, I think, to a largo extent, the views of Mr.
Deakin also.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN : Then we might pass it on the understanding that
with regard to the position and number of members outside the Prime
Ministers we reserve that point for later definition. I should wish
just to say, as I think I said before, that as far as His Majesty's Gov-
ernment is concerned, we are delighted to see the Ministers from the
different Colonies and to have the advantage of the knowledge which
they bring, but I did feel the point which Sir Joseph Ward has put,
although I did not think it was for me to raise it: I felt that it pro-
bably would be raised and that is one of the reasons why I did not
attempt to deal with it in this draft.
Dr. JAMESON: Before we pass it, should we not define the num-
ber of years; "this four or five seems rather loosA
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: This is only tentative, but since Dr.
Jameson has brought that point forward it has seemed to me that
even five years is a very short period. You cannot meet here except
at great inconvenience to some of us, and it is difficult to find a date,
but if the Conference think differently then let the word stand. I
suggested myself six years at the last Conference.
CHAIRMAN: Three was also suggested, and four was taken as
a compromise.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Exactly.
CHAIRMAN: I understood one objection to the three or six, is
that it might interfere with the elections in certain cases; there are
triennial Parliaments as was mentioned by Mr. Sheddon.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Ours is triennial.
CHAIRMAN : Therefore taking it by threes might interfere with
the elections and be an inconvenience.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Ours is five.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : The world is moving very rapidly and I
58 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. think five years would be a sufficient distance between the Confer-
* 19ot" ences; but I agree with Dr. Jameson that it ought to be defined.
CHAIRMAN : Yes, that is only put in brackets, and you will
Constitution observe that in case of emergency and a special Imperial Conference
of the special arrangements would be made.
Conference. _^
(Sir Joseph ^^' J-^^^ESON: Cannot we propose it as five years now?
'^^r^-) Sir JOSEPH WARD: I would not offer any seriou.s objection
to five years.
Mr. DEAKIN : I beg pardon, surely four years is quite long
enough? It depends, of course, upon and is governed by several con-
siderations, among them the duration of Parliaments. In New Zea-
land and Australia, the duration of Parliament is three years; that
practically means in each case that either a different Administration
or an Administration that has appealed again to the people and re-
ceived their confidence would be present. This period, so far as we
are concerned, appears to meet the necessities of the case. I am
far from saying that this ought to govern the period, but approach
the question from that individual experience with the idea that the
meetings of this Conference ought to be rather tised at their
ntiuimum. If circumstances arise, as they did in regard to this
present meeting, which make the term five years instead of four,
that is a matter for the members of the proposed Conference, and
it ran be so resolved, but I venture to suggest that four years is
quite a long enough time to permit and indeed to call for a review
of previous determinations, if they can be dignified by the use of
that ratner strong word.
A further question will arise presently with reference to the
bridging of the interval between Conference and Conference. Obvi-
ously, the greater the interval the greater the difficulty of bringing
it aad the greater the strain. It may be that if these gatherings
become regular in the future, if they are efficiently connected one
with another, the question of the time, as it would be perfectly open
to re-consideration at any moment, might come up again, but for
us at this stage, with the Conferences in their present rudimentary
position, with their uncertain influence, and with the many new
factors which may require to be taken into account, it appears to
me that four years is rather a longer than a shorter period than
would be desirable. I believe, Sir Wilfrid, you have quinquennial
Parliaments.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes.
Mr. DE AKIN : I can quite understand that under those circum-
stances the longer period would harmonise with your circumstances,
but, in spite of the great burden which attendance here imposes upon
those who may happen to be in office at the time, I am inclined to
think that four years leaves quite long enough a gap, and that, save
under special circiimstanccs, that should be the reirnlar time of
meeting. I would rather make it less than more, but certainly, so
far as I am individually advised, not more than four years.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: What was the resolution passed at the
formT Conforenco?
CHAIRMAN: Four years; it was a compromise.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: So far as T am concerned, the point
is not worth pressing.
COLONIAL CONFERE?fOE, 1907 59
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHAIRMAN: As far as His Majesty's Government are con- Third Day.
earned, they are only too pleased to see you at any time, and what l^th April,
weighed with us was really the question of the great inconvenience '_
to those who have to come. Future
,, __ . -r-r-r^T t ■ ■ • 1 • . 1 CoUStlt UtiOH
Mr. DEAKIN: It is a great inconvenience, but it has to be of the
facxl. Conference.
CHAIRMAN: What do you say. Dr. Jameson'^ Laurier.)
Dr. JAMESON: I am in favour of the shorter period; I agree
with Mr. Deakin about that.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: It has Veen aptly put, Sir, that we are here to
plant a seed which may develop into a tree hereafter, and I think
the more closely that tree is being watched and matured the better,
and I vote for the shorter period. In process of time we may find,
as the world is developing so rapidly, that four years is quite a long
enough time to elapse before calling together again such a Confer-
ence as this. I therefore vote for the shorter period.
General BOTHA: I have no serious objection against the shorter
period of four years, although personally I think five years would
suit me very much better.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: You will find in practice great in-
convenience, but I do not care about it; the point is not worth
pressing.
Mr. DEAKIN : The inconvenience is in a greater degree ours.
CHAIRMAN: Then shall we keep it four?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes; in deference to the expressions of
opinion from the different members that I have heard I concur.
CHAIRMAN: Four years. We are now in a position to pass on
to the n?xt roiiit.
Mr. DEAKIN : " Questions of common interest," is perhaps as
wide a phrase as it is desirable to employ, because after all there is
no such strict restriction of common interest as to imply that each
must necessarily affect the interest of all. I merely mention this in
passing, but the idea with which we used this phrase was that any
question which touches the interests of more than one of the
dominions beyond the seas is a matter of common interest and,
further, that any matter which affects even one of those dominions
at a time, if it involves a principle capable of application to other
dominions is also a matter of common interest. I assume. Sir, that
you will take that broad reading.
CHAIRMAN: I, certainly, myself, should not put a restrictive
construction upon it to limit the force of the expression.
Dr. JAMESON : Referring to the words after " common inter-
" est " — affecting the relations of the Mother Country and His
"Majesty's dominions over the seas," are those left out?
CHAIRMAN: No. "That it will be to the advantage of the
" Empire if Conferences, to be called Imperial Conferences, are held
" every four years, at which questions of common interest affecting
" the relations of the Mother Country and His Majesty's dominions
" over the seas may be discussed and considered."
Dr. JAMESON: That is the point, Lord Elgin. Is it necessary
to limit it by saying " affecting the relations " ? It goes without say-
60
COLONIAL COyFERENCB, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
^tird Day. ing-, of course, that anything that happens to the Mother Country is
1907^ ' ' °^ interest to every individual nation over the seas. Why put in
that limiting paragraph there?
Future
Constitution ^r. DEAKIN : Do you propose to leave down to " the Mother
"Country"?
of the
Conference.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
Dr. JAMESON: I should leave it out altogether, and say,
" Questions of common interest may be discussed and considered as
between."
CBIA.IEMAN: It was taken from the old resolution; that is how
it comes in.
Dr. JAMESON : I think the whole resolution might be improved
upon.
Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly it is of advantage to shorten the reso-
lution; that is one advantage.
Sir WTLFRID LAURIEE: What would be your draft, Dr.
Jameson ?
Dr. JAMESON: It would be, " four years, at which questions of
" common interest may be discussed and considered as between the
" Government of the United Kingdom and the Governments," and
so forth.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Deleting the intermediate
words i ^
Dr. JAMESON: Yes; they are superfluous.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I do not see that there is any differ-
ence. It is better phrasing, that is all — less words.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes, less words. I am always for the idea of
limitation.
CHAIRMAN : " At which questions of common interest may be
■■ discussed and considered as between His Majesty's Government,"
and so on ; that is agreed to. The second sentence begins : " The
" Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will be ex-officio President,
" and the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Colonies ex-ofjicio
" members of the Conference." The third sentence is : " The Secre-
'■ tary of State for the Colonies will be an ex-officio member of the
" Conference, and will take the chair in the absence of the Presi-
" dent."
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not wish to take any objection to the pro-
posal that the Secretary of State for the Colonies should take the
chair in the absence of the President, except again to repeat the
suggestion made yesterday that this, instead of being an absolutely
iron rule, might perhaps be expressed less conclusively in order that
at certain sittings where it might be thought appropriate, the senior
Prime Minister from one of the Dominions over the seas might have
the compliment of presiding. I do not mean merely as a formal
compliment, but as carrying out the principle which has been so
gracefully accepted by the Prime Minister and the present Chairman
of this Conference. Put in this form I take no exception to it,
except that it appears to preclude the possibility of any other presi-
dency than that of either the Prime Minister of Groat Britain, who
certainly when present could not give place to anyone, or his col-
league, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who is certainly on
COLOXIAL COyPERENCE, 1907 61
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the great bulk of the questions that will come before such a Con- Third Da^y.
ference the proper person to appear as his representative; but need ^^'^'^.qfP'''*''
it be framed so precisely? Can we not put it in some slightly laxer L.
form which would permit of the Senior Prime Minister present being, Future
if it were thought fit or desirable, asked to occupy the chair by way *"°"f* the'""
of illustrating the fact that this was a meeting, as has been expressed Conference,
here, between governments. I do not attach fundamental import- (Mr.
ance to it. Deakin.)
CHAIRMAN: May I say I have very carefully considered Mr.
Deakin's suggestion since he made it. I can only say for myself
that nothing would be more agreeable to me than to serve under the
presidency of the present senior member of the Conference, but I
regard this simply as a matter of convenience. It is quite common
in all arrangements of life to have two officers, one a President and
another a Chairman, and I have specially avoided the use of the
word " Presidency " in this case, and said " take the chair " rather
to put the Secretary of State in the position of the second officer of
the Conference, and for this reason I should be delighted to sit
under the presidency of my friend on the right; but this is a ques-
tion really of the man who is to carry on the work; he must make
the whole arrangements for the Conference, and the thing runs on
that he shall do so, and I think, really, as a matter of business
arrangement, it is the most convenient thing that he should be in
the chair.
Mr. DEAKIN: I do not suggest otherwise.
CHAIRMAN: I do not in the least shut out the possibility. At
the last Conference, Mr. Chamberlain, for instance, was prevented
by an accident from presiding, and if such a thing happened to me
to-morrow I think it would be for the Conference to select their own
Chairman.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is sufficient; what I had in my mind was
that there might be an occasion on which the Prime Minister was
necessarily occupied elsewhere; the Secretary of State for the Colo-
nies might be called for if he were a member of the active House to
leave the Conference. Under those circumstances I now understand
that by this phrase you leave it open.
CHAIRMAN: It may be left, as far as I am concerned, for the
nest Conference to decide.
Mr. DEAKIN : There might be either no member of the British
Government present, or simply the representative of some Depart-
ment, whose subject was under discussion. What I wish to provide
against in the most considerate fashion is, that it should be implied
from any statement to which we commit ourselves that the Chairman
■must be any member of the British Government, and cannot be the
senior Prime Minister.
CHAIRMAN: I do not wish to put that absolutely, but at the
same time I must repeat my conviction that a member of the British
Government would be the most convenient man to choose.
Sir WILFRID LAURIEE: For my part, I must say that, accord-
ing to the fitness of things, and according to what is accepted now,
that this is a Conference between Government and Governments ; the
Chairman should be a member of the British Government.
62 COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. CHAIRMAN : I suppose this discussion will be sufficient for your
^^^'iM?^"'' purpose, Mr. Deakin?
^rr~ Mr. DEAKIN: It is sufficient.
Constitution CHALRMAN : Have we finished with the third sentence?
Conference. Mr. DEAKIN: Would you mind taking that now?
(Sir ^^^^"^ CHAIRMAN: " The Secretary of State for the Colonies will be
" an ex-officio member of the Conference, and will take the chair in
" the absence of the President, and will arrange for such Imperial
" Conferences after communication with the Prime Ministers of the
" respective Colonies."
Mr. DEAKIN : " Arrange " means arrange as to precise date,
arrange as to agenda, arrange as to anything that may be necessary.
CHAIRMAN: Yes.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Upon that, I assume, Lord Elgin, that in
arranging the agenda a similar procedure to that followed on this
occasion would be carried out?
CHAIRMAN : Tes, I think so, unless the Conference suggest any-
thing else.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is all. I want to see the present
method followed because we may have some suggestions to send for
the agenda.
CHAIRMAN: Certainly. "In case of any emergency arising
" upon which a special Imperial Conference may have been deemed
" necessary, the next ordinary Conference to be held not sooner than
" three years thereafter."
Mr. DEAKIN: Is this necessary at all? You have fixed the
period of meeting as every four years.
CHAIRMAN: It is in the old resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN: I believe it is, but, having fixed a definite period
of four years, which of course, is subject to some variation if neces-
sity arises, and supposing a special Conference to be convened, is it
not for that Conference to consider in the first place and afterwards
for the Secretary of State to arrange with the Dominions over the
Seas for the date of the next meeting. What have we to do with
three years or two years, or any fixed period now ? How can we judge
now?
Dr. JAMESON: I think it is useless; I do not think it matters
very much, because if a special Conference was summoned that Con-
ference would decide whether it was necessary to meet again within
six months or four years.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not think we gain anything by it ; it is sim-
pler without it.
CHAIRMAN: That these words be omitted. (Carried.) That
disposes of the first paragraph, and we proceed now to the second
paragraph: "That it is desirable to establish a system by which the
" several Governments represented shall be kept informed during the
"periods between the Conferences in regard to matters which have
"been or may be subjects for discussion by means of a permanent
"secretarial staff charged under the direction of the Secretary of
" State for the Colonies with the duty of obtaining information for
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 63
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
"the use of the Conference, of attending to its resolutions and of Third Day.
" conducting correspondence on matters relating to its affairs." '^'^''in^'"^ '
yir. DEAKIN : As to the word " system "— " it is desirable to
" establish a system by which the several Governments represented Constitndon
" shall be kept informed " — is that intended to cover all that follows, of the
or does that imply something more than the secretariat? Conference.
CHAIRilAN : I think we took it from the Australian resolution ;
we took as much as we could.
llr. DEAKIN : Yes, but it has possibly a different complexion
now. I do not know that I can suggest any amendment. You have
taken the proposal that it is a system and you attach it then to the
next sentence " by means of a permanent secretarial staff."
CHAIRMAN: Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN: I do not know that this qualifies it.
CHAIRMAN: You want to make it a system?
Mr. DEAKEN : Yes. The system is further defined in the con-
cluding portion of the sentence, " obtaining information, attending to
resolutions, and conducting correspondence."
CHAIRMAN : That is also taken from the Australian resolution ?
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes.
CHAIRMAN : I so entirely agreed with it that I wished to follow
it.
Mr. DEAKIN : I am looking at these words in their present asso-
ciation, in order to endeavour to satisfy my mind as well as I can at
the first hasty perusal whether there are any limitations implied in
this connection, and I must say I am unable to discover them. The
one addition which is made here is, of course, of the first importance.
This is to be done by means of a permanent secretarial staff under
the direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. That means,
I assume, that the secretarial staff is to be part of the Colonial Office.
CHAIRMAN: Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not know in what sense it will be separated,
if separated at all, or distinguished, if distinguished at all, from what
may be termed the general staff of the Colonittl Office, but I hope I
shall not be considered to be unduly pressing the point if I refer once
more to the fact that in this great department the gigantic interests
with which its Minister and ofiicers are charged in connection with
those dependencies to which allusion was made yesterday, great in
extent and dense in population, impose upon them serious and in-
cessant responsibilities. To that I have already alluded in brief,
and have no wish to repeat myself, but in addition this department
is associated with methods of government, of administration, of re-
lation to legislative councils and similar bodies, partially repre-
sentative, or in some ca.=:es, wholly representative, but which are
always merely advisory, I think, in the case of Crown Colonies.
CHAIRMAN : Not entirely advisory ; they have powers of
legislation.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes; but that power of legislation is always sub-
ject to a veto and general control of a very complete character.
Speaking in a familiar way, therefore, the whole tendency of the
whole of this department, and of its officers, is to become imbued,
64 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. both consciously and unconsciously, with principles of government
^ 19ot"^ properly applicable to the great countries with which they are dealing
day by day and hour by hour, but which are very foreign, and in
r ^'L^?'? some cases almost antagonistic, to the principles on which the affairs
of the °^ self-governing Colonies are conducted, and must be conducted.
Conference. It promotes a certain strangeness in the manner of address oecasion-
(Mr. ally adopted in the arguments suggested to us and the propositions
ea -in.; £^^ their handling, which would not be made by those who were con-
tinually associated with the methods of making law and administer-
ing law in self-governing countries. We have always felt that we
labour under a disadvantage, which we are quite justified in
mentioning, but of which we can scarcely complain, because it
arises so naturally and inevitably that those most subject to it are
very often those who are least conscious of it. One requires to move
in a different constitutional atmosphere, to cope with public business
in free legislatures, and to view questions from their standpoint, in
order to appreciate a contrast which is continually being brought
home to us. The object I had in venturing the suggestion was that
it might be of advantage to the Colonial Office with its ever-growing
responsibilities and certainly would be of advantage to us to have
the secretariat under this Conference and working in direct relation
to it, separated from those Crown Colony associations which I have
described and connected directly with some member of the British
Government. We look first, of course, to the Prime Minister, who
himself is constantly dealing with his own Parliament, with his own
Chambers of legislature and through them with the electors whom
he represents and whose wishes he is able to interpret by that ex-
perience. He is already head of the Committee of Imperial Defence
and not his colleague the Secretary of State for War. We, of
course, are aware that in the Minister who occupies the high office
of Minister of State for the Colonies we may obtain whether in one
Chamber or the other, such a statesman, but even he, the longer
his stay in the office may be, is more and more likely to be impreg-
nated with the same methods and the same associations. I do not
wish to labour the point or unduly elaborate it. but ventured to put
it yesterday that it would be no loss to the Colonial Office in one
sense to part with the self-governing communities whose major com-
munications of a constitutional and important character are few, and
the great bulk of whose correspondence and despatches relate to
matters of administration that need never come under the purview
of the Minister himself. In thoir great issues they do feel that the
efficiency of the Governments they are called upon to undertake
would be assisted by a more sympathetic understanding both of the
difficulties by which they are confronted, and the means which they
must adopt in order to cope with them, I believe it would be of ad-
vantage to us, and no derogation from an office of this magnitude
if it were to part with us. This it can afford to do and yet retain
a great part of the earth's surface and a great portion of its popula-
tion under its control. Any proposal, therefore, which keeps this
secretariat associated with the Colonial Office will always be liable
at all events to the imputation, and will probably continue to furnish
some evidence from time to time of the fact that there are grounds
for that imputation, that it will not approach ua as we would
approach each other in matters of that kind. If Canada and
Australia, or Au.'^tralia and South Africa were exchanging com-
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 £6
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
iiiuiiioations their attitiuk' woukl be tlifferent from that often adopted ^jjj '''^, ^'".?-
by this Office, but ours would be the same attitude in each case, 1907!'^' '
because no matter how far apart we are, or our objects or circum-
stances, our ends are always sought subject to the same considerations Cons'tituHoii
and in much the same manner. I do not wish to labour this, but of the
assert that if you wish to jrive the preatest confidence to this new Conference,
sccretarint. if you really wish to give it a free hand and an oppor- pj^in )
tunity of justifying itself — if .vou wish to dissociate it from the
prejudice or prepossession, which now exists, if you wiuh to see it
established in complete consonance with the principle laid down of
governments consulting governments, I think it would be a distinct
advantage to have it from the outset severed from this Department
or any other department of the kind. Only in its own atmosphere
and in suitable sxu-roundings. and if possible under the Prime Minis-
ter of Great Britain, can it fulfil the important functions it will be
called upon tn discharge. I ask pardon for detaining the Conference
so lonj;-.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I certainly prefer this draft to any
other that has yet been offered to the Conference, but I must say I
would not like to exijress a definite opinion at this moment. It was
understood yesterday when this draft was proposed that we should
receive it last night, but I did not receive it until 10 o'clock this
morning, and did not read it until I came to this office.
CHArRMAX : It was sent to you yesterday at 3 o'clock.
.Sir WILFRID LAFRIER : Possibly, but T did not get it until
this morning.
CHAIRMAN: I am in the hands of the Conference, if they
wish to consider it further.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I would like to say. Lord Elgin, that
while I would not for a moment presume to put my oar in and say
how it should be arranged for internally in the Colonial Office, there
should certainly be a division of administration. If the self-govern-
ing Colonies were separated from the Crown Colonies to a very large
extent the desires of the country I represent would be met. The
matter is one for internal reform or alteration of the methods earned
out in the home Office. As I said, I will not presume to suggest how
that should be done. I think the whole point might be met in this
way, I recognise that the Colonial Office in connection with the work
of this important Colonial Conference, would require to have a ver>-
great deal of control between the meetings of the Conferences. I
would suggest, however, in order to try and arrive at the point Mr.
Deakin is alluding to, that a portion of this motion be altered. In-
stead of tying it dow^l by resolution a.s to under whose direction it
shiuld be. strike out the words " under the direction of the Secretary
of State for the Colonies," and let it stand: '"by means of a perma-
" nent secretarial staff charged with the duty of obtaining informa-
" tion for the use of the Conference." Then I take it that after the
conclusion of this Conference the Colonial Office might see its way
to separate the administration of the Crown Colonies and the self-
governing Colonies; and whoever is charged with the duty of the
secretarial work would be \inder the control of a responsible Minister,
say the SecTctary of State for the Colonit-s. For my part I think
the point referred to by Mr. Deakin would in this way be met.
There is a natural desire on the part of the Governments of the self-
58—5
66
COLOXIAL COyPEREXCE. 1907
Third Day.
18th April,
1907.
Fnture
Constitution
of the
Conference.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
governing Colonies to have what one may term, a more distinct
recognition of what we are trying to carry on in our respective
spheres. To a very large extent what I want would be met if we
were to get out of the position of the self-governing countries of
being regarded as on a par with the Crown Colonies. I am not say-
ing a word in derogation of the great Crown Colonies — very far
from it; they may become as great or greater than the countries we
are referring to at the moment. It has application to self-governing
Colonies generally. I want to impress upon the members of the
Conference that I feel this would be an improvement upon the
present system. We might perhaps arrive at a decision on this im-
portant matter, so that we might go on to some of the other practical
matters we have still to discuss. I merely offer that suggestion with
a view to leaving the method of appointing a permanent secretary
open, and the matter would then be under the control of the Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies,, to do what he thought proper after
this Conference adjourns.
Sir WILFRID LAtTRIER : May I ask you to suggest how that
improves it?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I do not suggest that it improves it. I
want to leave it open.
Mr. DEAKIiSr : At all events, if you take out the words " under
" the direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies," you post-
pone the question for the time being.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : It would be then " by means of a perma-
" nent secretarial stail charged with the duty of obtaining informa-
" tion for the use of the Conference " ?
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: What I say is, supposing the Secretary
of State for the Colonies (I am speaking in quite an impersonal
sense) and the Prime Minister of England after we adjourn decide
amongst themselves who was to he the Secretary, who was to compose
the secretarial staff, what office he is to be in, that is a matter for
the control of the Imperial Government. I leave it an open question;
I do not say it should be deferred because the secretarial staff is
essential to connect these Conferences after we adjourn; but I wish
to leave it an open question so that the Prime Minister and the
Secretary of State for the Colonies may, as they think proper, select
the staff for the purpose of carrying on the business; in other words.
I think it is all important in a matter of the kind that there should
be unaniniity upon a decision of this character, and if we could get
it at present I think that it is a desirable thing to do.
Dr. JAMESON: Lord Elgin, I quite agree with what Sir Joseph
Ward has said that this sentence ought to be left out: "under the
" direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies," not with the
purpose of leaving it an open question how the secretariat is to be
formed, but with a view to forming the secretariat on a perfectly
different basis. I am in absolute sympathy with what ifr. Deakin
has said on this subject. I think he used the words : " I look upon
" this secretariat as machinery really to make the Conference itself
" more efficient besides the linking up between the two Conferences,"
and Mr. Deakin said he felt that if it was under the Colonial Office,
perhaps they would not get those preparations for the Conferences
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 67
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 5:
done in such a sympathetic manner. I think he meant really in an Third Day.
'"informed" rather more than in a sympathetic manner; "in- 18th April,
formed " would be the better word to be used. In the country we ll
come from, I think my colloagiies will bear me out, that we have \m- Future
fortunately been under the eye of the public for some years, and Constitution
what we find is — I am not talking now really of Government Depart- Conference,
ments, but of the public — that the difference between the opinion of (Dr.
the man who goes out to a Colony on Colonial matters after he has -Tameson.)
had the local colour and lived amongst them, and the opinion — and
the acts, for that matter — of the man who has been at home here and
never visited the Colonies, is enormous; and, therefore, in the pre-
paration of the material for the discussion at these Conferences we
think wo want somebody who is conversant with the Colony and with
the affairs of the Colony, and that is the reason of our original
proposal that the secretariat should be composed of people, at all
events approved, if not appointed, by the several Colonies and, of
course, by the United Kingdom. Of course, whoever was appointed
by the United Kingdom would only, as in the Conference itself, take
the position of the Chairman, if wanted, or the local management of
it, but what we feel is that that secretarial staff should consist of
people conversant with our affairs, appointed by the Colonies and
paid for by the Colonies themselves so that they feel practically it is »
their own official work at home. So that I would support what Sir
Joseph Ward sa.vs, that after the words " secretarial staff charged "
the words " under the direction of the Secretary of State for the
Colonies " should be left out. Then it would read " charged with
the duty of obtaining information for the use of the Conference."
Then I hope we would go into the constitution of that secretarial
staff on the lines I have sketched out.
Sir WILFRID LAUEIER: Do I underetand you to mean that
the secretarial staff or secretariat should not be under direct minis-
terial responsibility here?
Dr. JAMESON: It should be, as Mr. Deakin suggested, under
the Prime Minister. He, being ex officio the President of the Con-
ference, would be ex officio in charge of it also, as representing the
Conference. That would be my view.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That does not answer my question.
Do I understand that this body should not be under direct ministerial
responsibility? In this draft resolution it is proposed that this staff
should be under the direct ministerial responsibility of the Secretary
of State for the Colonies.
Dr. JAMESON: It certainly should be under the direct responsi-
bility of the Conference.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I differ w do^o from you. I. think
any staff of that kind must be under the direct responsibility of a
Minister. This is a conference between governments and govern-
ments, and here, if you have a body which is under the responsibility
of no one, neither the British Government nor the other govern-
ments interested, the Colonial Governments, you create a state within
a state.
Dr. JAMESON: I really must say I do not follow you. It is
certainly under the responsibility of all the Prime Ministers of the
Empire.
58— 6i
68
COLOXIAL roXFEREXCE. 1907
Third Day.
I8th April,
1907.
Future
Constitution
of ^the
Conference.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sir WILFKID LAUBIER: How will they control it when yon
are in South Africa, and I am in Canada
Dr. J.-OIESOX: That has to be gone into; but, as a matter of
fact, on the spot here it would be controlled by the Prime llinister
here as representing all the Prime ^Ministers of the Empire. As to
details, all the Prime Ministers of the Empire would be in communi-
cation.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : No long as we are in England it is
all right,- but if you have a secretarial staif which remains here where
you, I, and everybody else goes back to his own country, who is to
control and direct that body in the meantime ?
Dr. JAMESON : For the third time I answer, the Prime Min-
ister of England.
Sir WILFRID LALTRIER : If you say it is to be under the direct
control of the Prime Minister here, I can understand it. Then it is
imder the direct responsibility of the Prime Minister of England, who
is to direct it.
Dr. JAMESON : I say he is to direct it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is a matter for debate.
Dr. JAMESON: The other point you asked me about was whe-
ther it should be under, or away from, the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, but I say " no " not under the Secretary of State, but the
Prime Minister of England as representing all the Prime Ministers.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I understood from the moment it was
placed before us by the despatch of Mr. Lyttelton, that the staff was
to be an independent body here, and under nobody's control, to repre-
sent nominally the Colonial Governments but praetieall.v to be so far
away from them as to be virtually independent of that control. Lord
Elgin proposes that it should be under direct ilinisterial responsi-
bilit.v of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. That is a very in-
telligible position. If you sa,v under the direct responsibility of the
Prime Minister, that is equally intelligible.
:\rr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: May I say that it seems both
Dr. Jameson and Sir Wilfrid Laurier are agreed on the point that
any secretariat established in this country between Conference and
Conference should be under the authority of a responsible Minister
of the British Government.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is my view.
Dr. JAilESON: Yes the Prime Minister,
^fr. WINSTON CIITR(^IIILL: The only question for the mo-
ment in doubt is whether it should be the Prime ^finister or the
Seen^tary of State for the Colonies.
Dr. JAMESON: May I add, again, in connection with the
secretariat, that it is the servant of this Conference, and should be
under the control of the Prime ^[inister in liis capacity as President
of the Conference.
CIIAIR.MAN: I have consulted the Prime ilinister. and the
Prime Minister authorises me to sa.v he does not see his way to agree
to that arrangement.
Mr. WINSTON CIIURCniLL: From the point of view of the
imu-r working of the office, tlicrc would bo an almost insuiwrable
COLOMAL VOXFEREXCE. 1907 69
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ilifticulty ill the classification of the different States and Dependencies Thiid Day.
of the Empire exclusively according to status. There must be a '^*^iq^»P"''
geographical classification as well, and it would involve a great dupli- L
cation of machinery if separate machinery altogether were to be set , Future
up in the desire to place the secretariat entirely under the control of "- '"^^"i"t'o°
the Prime Minister. Conference.
ilr. DEAKIN : Duplication of interests I can quite understand. whsV
Mr. Churchiirs point is incontestable on that, since, supposing Churcliill.)
Australia is communicating, no doubt questions affecting the Pacific
would be raised, perhaiis touching Fiji, which is a Crown Colony.
In the same way when Sir Wilfrid Laurier's Government is concerned,
there would be many problems relating to the West Indies, which he
would probably consider the interests of Canada required should be
very carefully considered. But the interests overlapping in that way
would not, I think, really complicate or duplicate the work to any
extent worth speaking of. because whatever questions are put forward •
would be as to the effect upon the self-governing Colonies of action
which is taken in their neighbourhood, whether in regard to Crown
Colonies or in regard to countries which are not Crown Colonies —
perhaps countries under foreign tiags, or under no flag. I do not see
that there would be any duplication of work, though I fully admit the
duplication of interests.
Mr. F. R. MOOE : I have nothing to say, except that I take it
that the concluding portion of this ijaragraph is sufficiently wide to
cover all information that ma.v be of interest to all the various
Colonies concerned, and that this information will be continuously
supplied to those different countries in order that interests may be
constantly kept alive in the various industries, that we are all con-
cerned in. For instance, it would cover all matters concerning com-
merce, shipping, and the various other large concerns that obtain
throughout the Empire. If there is a continuous stream of infor-
mation flowing from this centre to these different Colonies, and always
available not only by the Governments of these different Colonies,
but by their Parliaments. I can see considerable use for such a depart-
ment as we are here tr.ving to establish. Also I wonld like to know
whether it would be possible under this clause for any Coloney hav-
ing a particular interest at stake, and wishing to bring it prominently
to the notice of the Colonial Governments and the Home Government,
to be directly represented on its staff by aii.v nominee for the purpose
of .laying their case before the secretariat.
General BOTHA: 1 have im particular objection to the article as
it stands. I think the link between the Conference and our Agents-
(ieneral should be strengthened and drawn closer, because these
Agents-General really represent \is here. They are sent over from
our Colonies, and. in m,v opinion, it would seem that they are some-
what left out in the cold according to the wording of this resolution.
It occurred to me whether it was not advisable to insert after the
words ''Secretary of State for the Colonies" the following: "acting
" in consultation with the Agents-general representing the Colonial
" Governments."
CHArRMAjS": There are two sides to this question, I think; one
the general proposition, and the other the actual method of working
it out. With regard to the general proposition, m.v proposal takes
a step in advance of what has hitherto prevailed, in providing which
70 COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
^1^11"'^ Day. has been put forward with some persistence, if I may use the word,
1907^ ' ' ^^^ ^^^ been strongly advocated, more strongly advocated, in some
quarters than in others. We accept the principle, and must accept
Cons'tihit' ^® principle, as I said in my speech yesterday, imder the condition
of the of Ministerial responsibility, on which Sir WiKrid Laurier has in-
Conference. sisted. Therefore it comes to this, that following his observations, in
(Chairman.) which I entirely agree, that Ministerial responsibility must be vested
in the Imperial Government, because the representatives of the
Colonial Government cannot be in this place. Therefore it is for
His Majesty's Government to determine how they can implement the
desire of the Conference, and secure the necessary ministerial re-
sponsibility on which the institution of this link depends. I think
that there will really be no difference of opinion on that statement of
the ease.
Now 1 put it to the Conference as almost a truism that each
government must really be left to decide in what way it is most
convenient for it to divide the business which is to be put upon it.
It is difficult enough in this country, and I daresay you find it
difficult enough in your own countries, to divide the business of the
Government between the different ministers; to provide for the
necessary and not unnecessary number of members composing the
Cabinet, and various things of that kind. Therefore I venture to
put it very respectfully to this Conference that they should not
enter into the question of how in the opinion of His Majesty's Gov-
ernment the ministerial responsibility is to be put into operation.
That is a matter which His Majesty's Government must determine.
If you accept our proposition that we should with ministerial re-
sponsibility provide the link which you desire, and which we tliink
you reasonably desire, between Conference and Conference, you
should allow us a free hand in other respects. Still, in consequence
of what was said at yesterday's meeting, I did. as I say, inform the
Prime Minister of the expression of views which Mr. Deakin and
others made, and I am to say for him that he does not see how the
Prime Minister of this country could undertake the direction of the
secretariat which it is proposed to set up. On the other hand, the
proposition which I put forward I put forward on my own respon-
sibility as Secretary of State for the Colonies, but with the assent of
my colleagues, and I hope therefore that the Conference will give it
at least as favourable consideration as possible. I do not propose
nothing. I propose to do as much as I possibly can to meet the
desire. It is quite true that this Office has grown considerably, and
that the section of it which deals with the responsible governments
has as yet been so clearly differentiated and defined as it may quite
naturally seem reasonable now that it should be, but which every-
body will understand was not at least as necessary in days gone by.
I take considerable re.'^ponsibility upon my.self, but T am prepared
to say that wo will endeavour. I think we shall succood, to so separate
the departments of this Office that you will have in the office in the
form which we shall present it to you, a distinct division dealing
with the affairs of the responsibly governed Colonies. T will not
say it will be exactly apart, because there is. and must be, nt the
head, at any rate, a connecting link between the several parts of any
office, but there will bo one division which you will feel will be con-
cerned with the business of all the self-governing Colonies, and not
directly with that of the Crown Colonies. That is what T aim at.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 71
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Whether I can carry it out to-day or to-morrow, or at what par- Third Day.
ticular time, I cannot promise. But if I can get any suggestions ^* ,q^J""^''
from any of the Prime Ministers here, witli regard to any particular '-
arrangements which could be made still further to meet their con- Future
venience we shall endeavour to carry them out. ^f j.jjg
I should just like — and I hope in the most friendl.v mamier Conference,
possible — to a little demur to the " attitude '' which I think was the (Chairman.)
word which Mr. Deakin attributes to us in this Office. I do not
think if we were happy enough to have his assistance in the Office
that he would find it really existed.
Mr. DEAKIN : T should become official too.
CHAIRMAN : At any rate that shows that the attitude has some
attraction, but I do hope that ho will believe that we have no wish
to be dictatorial or to be uncivil or anything of that sort in the cor-
respondence we carry on with the Colonies.
Mr. DEAKIN: Too civil sometimes.
CHAIRMAN : I would just point this out. Mr. Deakin said that
there was n difference in the attitude of Canada, if he corresponded
with Canada, to the attitude if he corresponded with us here. As
long as we are all members of the Empire, I suppose the Imperial
Government may on certain occasions have to use different expres-
sions from others, but I assure Mr. Deakin that we do not wish to
use them in any way to infringe the principle which the Prime
Minister laid down, that is to say, the freedom and independence of
the different governments which are parts of the Empire.
I hope what I have said meets to a large extent what Sir Joseph
Ward wishes. I should prefer not to omit the words from the reso-
lution " under the direction of the Secretary of State for the Col-
onies " because it seems to me we ought to be fair and square in
these matters, I am not in a position, speaking on behalf of His
Majesty's Government, to offer more to this Conference than I have
offered, I venture to say, as I did at the beginning, that I am
offering n great advance on former practice, and I am quite aware
that I am facing some difficulties in the matter, but I am prepared
to go as far as I have indicated.
W^ith regard to what General Botha said, I should imagine that
one of the results of the new arrangement that I have under con-
templation would be to strengthen the getting of information, and
the communication of information through the Agents-General or
any other representatives of the Colonies. I do not think, just be-
cause there is the difficulty with regard to ministerial responsibility,
that we can incorporate them (the Agents-General) in the system in
the sense of bringing them within the secretariat, but that we wish
to improve in every way our means of communication with them and
through them I think may stand without saying.
With regard to Mr. Moor's observations, I am not quite sure if I
correctly followed them. I think he asked for information on prac-
tically all subjects such as commerce and the like. What this resolu-
tion immediately before us deals with, are the subjects which have
been or are to be discussed at a Conference, and the secretariat is to
deal with the Conference. No doubt in the organisation of the office,
if it is re-organised in the manner I have indicated, we shall be only
too glad to do all that is in our power to further the communication
of information on all subjects through that part of the Office to the
72 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII . A. 1903
Third Day. self-goveruiug Colonies, whether it deals with matters connected with
^^**iqn-'"^''' the Conference itself or beyond it.
'- Those are my views as far as I cau form them on the spur of the
Future moment on the opinions expressed. I do not know whether Sir "Wil-
of the ^^^^ Laurier would still wish to postpone a decision on this question.
Conference, or whether he may decide it now.
(Chairman.)
Sir WILFRID LAUEIER: I am quite satisfied upon the prin-
ciple conceded, that what is done is to be done on direct responsi-
bility. That is the onl.v subject, as originally proposed, to which I
demurred, because it seemed to be the creation of an independent
body. The moment it is recognised here it is to be under direct
responsibility, I am satisfied. I am quite prepared to accept the new
principle, but I would not like to commit myself immediately to the
drafting of the resolution, which perhaps may be improved. Before
we go any further, I would like to call Mr. Deakin's attention to that
part which is taken from the draft sent by Australia, '" Attending to
its resolutions."" Will Mr. Deakin kindly explain what he means b.v
that^
Mr. DEAKIX : May I, without reiteration, say something which
appears to be necessary in the way of self-justification before ans-
wering Sir Wilfrid Laurier's question. It must be due to my clumsy
method of handling my argument, but I appear to have conveyed my
meaning so unfortunately as to suggest to you, my lord, that I have
been rudely reflecting upon this great department. Of course, I do
not speak without premeditation, but without a studied choice of
epithets. I should have preferred to handle this subject without
■' brushing the dust off a butterfly's wings," if I could have accom-
plished my object. I had to convey our sense of dissatisfaction, but
have failed, apparently, to explain its cause. May I ask that the
dictatorial attitude, which may be usually properly defended, so far
as it exists, does not, so far as my knowledge goes, exist at all to any
notable extent. That is not our complaint. Our complaint is not
that we are treated too peremptorily, but that representatives of ours
are met neither with an uuderstauding of the real causes from which
they spring or of our precise intention. Our responsible and repre-
sentative governments are dealt with as .vou deal with a well-meaning
Governor or well-intentioned nominee council. Sufficient knowledge
of our circumstances on mau.v occasions would show that we were
expressing the sentiments of the great body of our people who have
considered some question or questions which directly and nutterially
affect them, and regarding which they have formed strong and clear
conclusions. Our representations are met, as .vou are quite entitled
to meet them if .vou please, by an absolute refusal in some cases, or
by a qualified refusal in other ca.scs. With that we have not so much
dispute as with the fact that we seem to l)e refused, not merely upon
inadequate, but upon inappropriate or luireal grounds. The particu-
lar representations we make arc not interpreted as they would be if
they had been expressed by representative members of the House of
Commons, who, speaking on behalf of their fellow-members, give
utterance to what they believe to be the wishes of their electorate.
It is that kind of treatment we mean, 1 hope I am not to be tempted
to justify niyself, or to attemjit to justify myself, by giving illustra-
tions of this kind of treatment. There nui.v be an ap])r(q)riate time
for them. l)Ut I doid>t if it is just now. The complaint we liave to
COLOyiAh CONFERENCE, 1907 73
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
niiiko is (if nil attitude of ruiiul. A cfrtiiiii impenetrability; a cer- Third Day.
tain rciiioteiR'ss, jierhaps geograjiliically ju.stifiocl ; a certain weariness ' ,nnJ"'''
of iieojilc inucli pressed with affairs, and greatly over-burdened, whose L
natural desire is to say "Kindly postpone this; do not press that, do , Future
"not trouble us; what does it matter^ we have enough to do alread.v ; °'of 'the""'
".you are a self-governing eoiiiiminity, why not manage to carry on Conference,
"without worrying us?" (Mr.
Hoping 1 have removed an.y wrong impression, and if I have L)eakin.)
removed misapprehension, may I say that your reply. Lord Elgin,
amounts to a non possitmus — not that "We will not" but "We can-
not." The Prime ilinister cannot see his way to accept the responsi-
bilities which we are daring enough to suggest for him, and you
cannot eon.sider it further. In this case too I, for one, do not — and
doubt if my friends will — question your right to make that reply.
But, there again, I question the applicability of the argument which
you urge. You say no government is to be dictated to as to how it
shall do its business. Quite true. It must allot that busiiiess as it
pleases. Quite true. It will direct it as it pleases. Quite true. Xo
one suggested anything else; but what we did suggest was that our
business, so far as it can be distinguished from yours, should be
recognised as our business even to the extent of being paid for by us
and discharged by a staff which should, through your Prime Minister,
be responsible to our Prime Ministers, and to us. We proposed to
you a new thing — not any interference with .your present depart-
ments. We have no right to interfere, as you properly said, with
your department, or its divisions, or its methods. I quite agree.
What we have suggested is a new department altogether, with your
Prime Minister at its head, but a responsibility somewhat different
in its origin, as he would be acting not merely as Prime Minister of
Great Britain, but also acting for all the other Prime Ministers of
the Empire. We are prepared to contribute to the cost of such a
department and to pay for the officers that they employ in order to
have our business done. Therefore, though you would be perfectly
right in so replying to any one who did claim to interfere with your
business, surely we were not trespassing when we suggested some-
thing which is our business as well as ,vours, and which is to be at
our joint cost and responsibility; and I think on that we are quite
entitled to be heard.
CIIAIRilAX: Certainly, and I have heard you.
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, but while not disputing your right to reply,
I do not think it applies, because our proposition was not to trench
upon your department or present office, but that we should have a
voice in and share the cost of a new department, which would be in
a sense a joint department, though under the ministerial direction of
the Prime Minister of England, I hope I have removed an,v misap-
prehension on that point.
CHAIRMAN : I do not quite accept the whole of your argument.
Mr. DEAKIN : You will also agree that we have not to accept
the applicability of your reply, which, though reasonable enough in
its terms, is inapplicable, because we are not making, and have not
made, any such request as that which you have felt bound to decline
as if it had been made.
Now, the suggestion made by General Botha appeared to me to be
bound up with the proposal which some of us have been recommend-
74
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Third Day.
18th April,
1907.
Future
Constitution
of the
Conference.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ing. ,0%r idea was that the Prime Ministers at the head of the
various Governments would act through their Agents-General in mak-
ing such representations as they chose through such a secretariat.
If it had been a joint department, and a joint secretariat, such as
that I have been describing, to which we all contributed, and in
regard to which we had some voice as to the selection of officers, the
Agents-General would have had the utmost freedom, the fullest right
and title to enter the office to communicate with it and use it when
representing their Prime Ministers. Both they and it would be
agencies of their Governments. For that reason I cordially support
the practical suggestion made by Greneral Botha, which I have no
doubt will be given effect to whatever the decision as to the secretariat
maj' be, though it wotild have been expressly provided for if our idea
had been accepted. Even when this proposed secretariat, instead of
being a joint body, is to be part of your Colonial Office under your
direct control, there will be an open communication from the various
Governments through their Agents-General.
CHllKMAX: I said so.
Mr. DEAKIN: Exactly. Our suggestion was based on the
assumption that it would be so. In the same way, the question put
by the Premier of Natal is also answered. Our proposition imphes
the widest and completest freedom on the part of any Prime Minister
to propose matters for investigation and preparation by the secretar-
iat. On that, also. I have no doubt he will receive a satisfactory
assurance from his Lordship. In addition, it is plain that the answer
to his question was also supplied by the proposition we have been sub-
mitting, which would have given every right and title to obtain every
kind of information. I may be pardoned, perhaps, for making these
comments before replj'ing to tlie enquiry put bj- our senior member,
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
I have taken out a list of the resolutions passed at previous Con-
ferences, some of which appear to have been pursued a short way,
and one or two of which I thinlv have been scarcely pursued at all.
If such a secretariat as we proposed had been in existence, when any
resolution was arrived at by any Conference in relation to a particular
subject, the duty of that secretariat would have been to bring that
matter to the notice of all the departments concerned — the Board of
Trade, the Admiralty, or whatever branches of the British Govern-
ment might be affected — and also to communicate with the several
Colonial Governments affected, either to ask them for information or
to present them with the information it had collected. The duty of the
secretariat would be to take care that a resolution should not remain
a dead letter but should be followed up to its fullest extent. Any Prime
Minister who was not satisfied with what was done would communicate,
either with the Prime Minister who started it. or those who agreed with
it, and would again apply to the secretariat contending that certain
information supplied was defective, or that certain action indicated
or requested had not been followed. He would say that his Govern-
ment would take action or declined to take it, as the ease might he,
and he would ask to be informed if other Governments had acted
upon it, or not. The secretariat ought to do whatever is necessary-
to keep the resolutions alive until they were finall.v disposed of to the
satisfaction of all Governments concerned.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I am quite satisfied with that reply
ns to the meaning of the words I asked about.
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 75
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. WINSTON CHUECHILL: On the point of payment for Third Day.
the secretariat, I understood that there was a general agreement upon '^''^0^7'"^'''
the assertion of the paramount responsibility of some minister of the 1
British Government with regard to the control of such secretariat. Future
I cannot help feeling that that would be very much impaired if it ""Jff the "
was a secretariat supplied and financed from a joint fund. I am Conference,
sure it would undoubtedly weaken the control and authority of the (^''' Wilfrid
minister presiding over the department if that department was sup-
plied and financed from a fund collected from a great many different
contributory bodies.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is quite a fair criticism from, my point of
view, except that it must be remembered that the functions of this
particular Department are strictly regulated. It is a small secretariat
which is to collect, receive, and distribute information, answer in-
quiries, and follow them out. Therefore, the only ministerial control
required is office management, seeing that the officers are doing their
work, and for that the head of the Department would be responsible.
Our secretariat would have had no executive or any other kind of
power. It would have been a collecting, collating, analysing, tabulat-
ing, and distributing medium.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: But you would give the head of
the Department administering it power, for instance, to dismiss a
member of the secretarial staff with whom he was dissatisfied?
Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: But if you took a different view
with regard to the conduct of that member?
Mr. DEAKIN : He would have the right of appeal.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: But the Colonial Government
which took a particular interest in that member, or felt that he had
a special reason or claim to speak on their behalf, might take a
strongly different view from the Home Government in regard to the
member's position, and the fact that they contributed actually a por-
tion of the fund out of which he was paid might lead them to assert
in a very definite form that division of authority which you all seem
anxious to avoid.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not think that would occur. There must be
one head for office purposes.
Dr. JAMESON: As we said before, the Prime Minister in
charge of the secretariat would represent all the other Prime Min-
isters. It is very natural, if we pay towards the upkeep of the
secretariat, to choose some one, in the absence of the others, to take
charge. That is a different position from that of the Secretary of
State for the Colonies, who, of course, is entirely concerned with the
Imperial Government. My own view was not so much as to the
question of which department of the Government it should be under,
but I was anxious as to the knowledge of the people who form the
secretariat. My great point is, that it should be composed of people
well informed in Colonial affairs, and I hope Lord Elgin will take
that into aceoimt when he is forming the secretariat, and then I shaU
be quite satisfied.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I would like to say. my Lord, that I
understand from the observations you have made, that the Prime
Minister cannot undertake this duty.
76 COLOMAL COXIKh'EXCE. 1007
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. CHAIRMAN : I do not tbiiik he can.
18th April,
1907. Sir JOSEPH WARD: I understand that,. and also agree that it
^r~ ' must be under direct ministerial control. We all recognise that
Constitution should be the case. Upon the point referred to by Dr. Jameson, may
of the I suggest that I think it would be very valuable to the Colonies and
^on eience. ^^^^ ^^ ^j^^ Colonial Office, if when the secretarial staff is formed,
(oir Joseph . , , . ,. i, • ^ i • i
Ward.) you recognised the importance ot allowing some one connected with
that staff to spend some time out in our Colonies, if only for the
purpose of obtaining information, upon the methods of carrying on
your business with us, as, on the spot, a capable officer wiould get a
useful insight into the work and system of administration of our
Governments. That is a very important matter, and if the sugges-
tion were carried out it would add invaluably to the working of the
Colonial Office at home in connection with the Colonies. Speaking
for my own country, I think it would be a matter of verj' great im-
portance if such a thing could be done. In view of the very
important statement made by Lord Elgin as to division of the self-
governing and Crown Colonies, I have only to say that I very
heartily congratulate him and the Conference upon it. We have his
assurance that he proposes to divide the Administration of the Colo-
nial Office in such a way as he may think best in his owii Depart-
ment, so that the self-governing Colonies will be treated separately
from the Crown Colonies, and from my point of view 1 regard tliat
as very important. I am very glad indeed to find that Lord Elgin
concurs in what I have previously said. In our countries, we con-
sider it of the first importance in the administration of our affairs
that from time to time must come to the Colonial Office. I suggest
that the Prime Minister and Secretary of State for the Colonics
should confer as to wliat should be done in regard to the secretarial
staff. I do not seem to be quite in accord with some of my colleagues
on that lioint, but I should be quite content with the already im-
portant steps we have achieved towards the continuity of the Con-
ference and the creation of a link to be kept up during the period
of four years between meetings, and I think it would be a very great
pity that any difference of opinion should prevent us coming to a
unanimous conclusion on the matter. Under the circumstances. I
shall support the i)roposal as it is, and shall look forward to it work-
ing out with satisfaction to all concerned.
I am very glad to know that the important men who carry on
the representation of our countries here — our High Commissioners
and Agents-General — will be recognised as being a medium, at all
events, through which the Colonies may from time to time make
representations that will be heard, as they alwa.vs have been so far
as my experience has gone, at tlie office of the Secretary of State for
the Colonies, in connection with this Imperial (Conference on matters
we desire to bring forward.
CHAIRMAN: One of the first meetings 1 had in tliis room was
with the Agents-(jeneral of all the Colonies, and 1 specially asked,
if they had any business at any time to bring forward, if they would
be so good as to let me know.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: T think. Sir, they have the most cordial
feeling towards you, so far as I know.
Mr, DEAKIN: Do you propose to omit tbise wonN ■'under the
direction nf tlic Secretary of Stnt(> for the Colonies'"?
COLOM M, ro\FERENCE, 1907 Tl
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Xo, I propose to leave them in. Thiid Day.
I8tli .A.piil.
Cir.VTU.MAN: It is not from any wish to aggravate my ofhce or 1907.
position, but it seems to me the resolution defines what we are going TT -
to do. and it puts the responsibility definitely on my shoulders to Constitution
carrv (uit the wishes of the Conference. ^ of the
( ontereiice
Dr. .TA^MESOX: As I was one of those who objected to it at (^ji,. jjeaj^j,,)
first. I should like to say that as I want .something definite I quite
accept the position as it has been explained, and I suggest that the
words remain in. though I must say, that I think we have been quite
right in giving our opinions. T now suggest that we pass it as it
stands.
.Mr. DEAKIX: Shall we know no more with regard to the policy
you propose to pursue, than the general statement you have made as
to some kind of separation in the Colonial Office? In this connec-
tion too there is the question of reorganisation of the Colonial OflSce.
CITAIRifAX : We will take that separately immediately after-
wards, if we pass this.
Mr. DEAKIX: Sir Joseph Ward has also called attention to it.
C'lIAIRMAX: What we propose to take is first this matter, and
then the question as to the Imperial Defence Committee, if there is
time.
ilr. DEAKIX: So great is our need of securing the local knowl-
edge of your officers that I have been contemplating the abduction
of Sir Francis Hopwood ever since I have been here, with the object
of turning him into a citizen of the Commonwealth for a few months
so that he may understand our difficulties for the future.
Sir FRANCIS HOPWOOD: I shall be very glad to accept your
invitation.
Mr. DEAKIX: If your Ministerial Chief endorses that we will
consider it as given and accepted on the spot, and for any time.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I hope Sir Francis Hopwood will under-
stand that the same applies to New Zealand.
Mr. DEAKIX: I trust you will not think me unduly insistent,
but must say with regard to the establishment of a secretariat that
above all, if it is to be a part of the Colonial Office, and yet have a
distinct character, it will require distinct and separate knowledge
which can only be gained by living in the country, and being asso-
ciated with it. Our own experience when we come here is quite suffi-
cient to teach us how very different familiar names and familiar
things are in thi.s country when compared with our own. A similar
e.xperience, I am sure, would await any member of your staff. Even
if he were the ablest, the most gifted, and best-read person in the
country, he would find that your names, phrases and forms have
their distinct development amongst us. Before passing from this
point let me venture to remind .you that no secretariat in the Colo-
nial Office will give us that satisfaction which I am sure you desire,
iinless some of its important officers are in touch with the self-gov-
erning Colonies with which they have to deal; and that this touch
can only be obtained by personal acquaintance with the Colonies.
CHAIRMAN : Of course if it means a permanent arrangement
for certain members of the staff of the Colonial Office being in the
78 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. Colonies, it will mean an increase of the staff for which I should
1907^" have to apply to my friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
.^TT Mr. DEAKTy : That might be avoided by the proposal to send
Constitution y^ one or two of our leading men for the time being to be employed
of the by you in order to understand the mysteries of this department.
Conference.
i^, ■ > CHAIRilAX : That is a thing which would have to be threshed
(Lhairnian.) . , ., , .^ , , , 5\, . .
out m detail, and I should not like to express an opinion upon it
just now.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIER: This secretariat means the creation
of a new department whose business it would be to deal with the
self-governing Colonies or Dependencies of the Crown, or, as they
are termed "' Dominions beyond the sea," and I think the suggestion
which has been made that the secretary or one of the staff should
visit the different parts of those Dominions is an excellent one.
CHAIRMAX : We have tried it, but there is one unfortunate
result, and that is we lose our best men because you retain them; I
think, however, this point is one which we could scarcely discuss very
usefully further than this. We notice your wish and will consider it.
Mr. DEAXIN : We have finished our consideration of this resolu-
tion down to the word " affairs."
CHAIRMAN: I understand it is adopted down to the word
" affairs." The • other paragraph is : '' That upon matters of im-
" portance requiring consultation in common either in this country
" or in the Colonies between two or more of the governments which
" cannot conveniently be postponed until the next Conference or
" which involve subjects of a minor character, subsidiary Confer-
" ences should be held between representatives of the Colonies and
" of the Mother Country especially chosen for the purpose." I do
not know that I need not amplify that. It seems to me to speak
for itself.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: So far as I am concerned I think
this is perfect, but it is a mere matter of course, and I do not see
why you should put it in. It is a matter which would always be
• done as a matter of course, and I do not see any advantage in putting
it here.
CHAIRMAN : It is only put in in order to carry out the principle
of working it out as much as possible. The secretary suggests that
after the word '" character " we might put in " or such as require
detailed consideration." For instance, the Shipping Conference we
could scarcely have carried on at this Conference.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is not a matter of a minor character.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It is all quite proper, as I say, but
I do not see tue necessity of putting it in this form here, because it
seems to me to bo over-burdening a very good resolution.
Mr. WINSTON' CIIURCIIELL: The resolution really consti-
tutes one of the instruments of Imperial organisation, and from a
imblic point of view it is calculated to interest the public, as showing
liiiw far the work has proceeded; I think it worth considering whether
it ought not to be ns complete a statement of the stage at which that
organisation has arrived ns possible.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: T do not object, but it seems to me
putting on paper what can be done without it.
COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 79
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKiN: The one criticism 1 have to offer upon it is that Third Day.
if this phruse were construed narrowly the reference to Colonies '**'lq^'"^^''
might be limited to Colonies referred to above. Now we all hope L
to see the union of South African States, to which several of the Future
representatives here have more than once alluded. Canada, Aus- °°f'the'°°
tralia, and South Africa will then be three Dominions or Common- Conference.
wealths which will include in themselves, with limited powers, states (Sir Wilfrid
or provinces which occasionally might be entitled to share in some Laurier.)
of these subsidiary Conferences, which, indeed, might be confined to
them if the matters dealt with related only to certain special subjects.
I do not know whether the addition of those words would provide
for this contingency quite clearly. While this shows the general
scheme of the Conference, it ought not to exclude from participation
in the subsidiary Conference some of the provinces or states which
would not, or could not, be represented in the major Conferences
to which we have been alluding, because they no longer possess the
powers which would authorise them to speak or act upon the questions
under discussion.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: As a matter of drafting as we
have now cut out in the first paragraph the words " affecting the
relations of the Mother Country and His Majesty's Dominions over
the Seas," would it not be possible to use the words " His Majesty's
Dominions over the Seas," which have not been previously used in
the resolution, in the place of the word " Colonies " in the third
paragraph?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not see the necessity of it. A
" resolution " means that you shall do something which you could
not do before. To\i can do this already. It is mere surplusage, but
I do not object to it, except on the point that there is no necessity
for it. I think Mr. Winston Churchill's suggestion on the point
of drafting is excellent.
CHAIRMAN : " In this country or in His Majesty's Dominions
over the seas.'
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think with Sir Wilfrid Laurier, that as
a matter of necessity we could do without it, but, on the other hand.
I quite agree with Mr. Winston Churchill that it would convey a
much brighter and stronger impression on the imaginative observer
- outside, who is anxious to see that there is some possibility of dealing
with minor matters between the Colonies.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It can do no harm, and possibly may
do good.
Dr. JAMESON : I suppose the " secretariat " in the previous
paragraph is implied in this paragraph also?
Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is understood, and applies to the
whole thing.
Mr. DEAKIN: We ask that its head should be connected in
everything with the self-governing Colonies — Conference or no Con-
ference.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is understood.
Dr. JAMESON: The "secretariat" refers to the general Con-
ference in the paragraph before, and here the paragraph goes into
minor matters.
80
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
Third Dav
18th AprU
1907.
Future
Constitutio
of the
Conference
(Dr.
Jameson.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
CHAIRMAX: Do you mean you would put it in^
Dr. JAMESOX : Yes, I would.
CHAIEMAX : The Secretary suggests that we should simply use
" the term " Dominions over the Seas."
Mr. DE AKIX : Are they all dominions ? '' Dominion " is a
technical title. In Canada the word " Dominion " includes the sub-
ordinate Provinces, just as the word " Commonwealth " with us
includes States.
Mr. WIXSTOX CHURCHILL: But in the plural, "Domin-
ions," it is quite different.
ilr. DEAKIX^ : I suggest you should bring in the words " local
administrations " to put it beyond doubt, but am not particular
about it — you might have both expressions.
CHAIR1L\X : It stands thus : " That upon matters of import-
ance requiring consultation in common, either in this country."
Mr. DEAKIX : What does " consultation in common " mean ?
CHAIRMAX: That means between this country and others.
ilr. DEAKIX: You cannot have a consultation without at least
two people.
:Mr. WIXSTOX CHURCHIIX: It means consultation in gen-
eral.
Mr. DEAKIX: Do the words "in common" convey anything?
CHAIRMAX: It seems to me they are put in in rather a wrong
place, and it would be better if it read in this way : " That upon
" matters of importance either in this countr.v or m His Majesty's
" Dominions beyond the Seas between two or more of the Govern-
" mcnts which require a consultation in common and which cannot
" be conveniently postponed until the next Conference."
Mr. DEAKIX: That is better.
CHAIRMAX: " Or which involves subjects of a minor character
or such as require detailed consideration subsidiary Conferences
should be held between representatives of His Majesty's Dominions
beyond the Seas and of the Mother Country, specially chosen for the
purpose.''
Mr. DEAKIX: You do not want tlic wholi' phrase over again.
It is sufficient to say "'representatives of the Douiiuions and the
ifother Country."
CHAIRMAX: I was using the former words.
Mr. WIXSTOX CHURCHILL: Representatives of the Domin-
ions concerned i
Mr. DEAKIX: Yes, that is goo.l.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I slioidd like to have an opportunity
of considerin;; the wording when it is copied out.
CH.MHM.W: I have no objection to that so long as it is not
published.
i[r. DEAKIX: T lliink Sir Wilfrid Lauricr is entitled to make
that suggestion, but hope it will i)e Knished to-day, and that the
precis can be published wliicli tlii' Press did not have yesterday.
COLOyiAL coy FERENCE,- 1901 81
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILFRID LAURIEE: As to this drafting of the resolu- Third Day.
tion. if tlio wonliiis- i-s accepted I am quite satisfied, but before giv- '^^'ig^''"''
iug it to the public I should like to have further opportunity of '-
considcriuK it. I am not so read.v to give information to the Press „ ^"*"'"®.
as Mr. Deakin seems to be. Fesfina Jenic is a good maxim. I would of the
like to defer this. T am not satisfied as to the words '' Dominions I'ouference.
beyond the Seas."' It is a good expression, but I do not know that (Mr.
it is correct as it is used here, and I should like to see it in a cor- ®^ '"
rected draft. I do not know that it may not include Trinidad as
well as Australia and Canada. It is not limited, so far as I can see,
to the self-governing Colonies.
CHAIRMAN: 'That is what is meant in the first place.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Why not use the words "self-governing
Colonies ? "
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Or "self-governing Dominions be-
yond the Seas." As drafted, it seems to me it would as well apply to
Trinidad or Barbados as to Canada.
CHAIRMAN: I think we will have to introduce the words
" self-governing."
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I would like to use some expression
which would make a differentiation between the self-governing Colo-
nies and the other Colonies. So far as the Colonies represented here
are concerned, I wish we could drop the word " Colonies " and try
to invent something which would strike the imagination more.
Mr. DEAKIX: Certainly, if anybody can do that it is you, Sir
Wilfrid.
Mr. WIXSTON CHURCHILL: I understand Sir Wilfrid
Laurier would like to have a fair copy of the resolution to consider.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes. We have adopted it in sub-
stance, and that is great progress ; but before it is sent to the Press
I would like to have the opportunity of considering it.
CHAIRilAX: Would the words "self-governing communities of
the Empire " do ;
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Perhaps they would; but I would
like to consider the suggestion. It is worth taking twenty-four hours
over it. I talked it over yesterday with a friend, and we agreed that
we have passed the state when the term '' Colony " could be applied
to Canada, Xew Zealand, and Australia. I would like to have sug-
gested the word " State," but for the fact that in Australia they call
states what we call provinces, and it might lead to confusion. Per-
haps one of us can make a better suggestion. I would rather sleep
iipon it. unless somebody else has any other suggestion to make to-
day.
Mr. DEAKIX: Would this term do: "British Dominions pos-
sessing responsible government " I
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I would prefer "self-governing
dominions beyond the seas."
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am agreeable to that.
Mr. DEAKIN: We need not add "beyond the seas." "Self-
governing Dominions " will do.
68—6
82 COLVXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. Sir WILFRID LAUEIEE : If you designate all tliose countries
^190?" *^^^ have been known up to the present time as self-governing Colo-
nies " self-governing Dominions," we can give out to the public that
Future henceforth these are " self-governing Dominions," but I would like
Constitunon , . , , ? . i " , , i , a ^J:
of the to have a single apt word which may be taken to mean selt-govern-
Conference. Jng Colonies."
Deakiii.) Mr. DEAKIN : We recognise that the " Dominion " is the senior
of the " Commonwealth " and, therefore, the name " Dominion " has
a claim. Again, we recognise that in His Majesty's official title the
word " Dominion " is used where the word " Commonwealth " is not.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: "Dominion" is a general term
which covers many words which it is not possible to define otherwise,
ilr. F. R. MOOR : Can we have the words of the resolution read
as now settled?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: As long as it is understood that New
Zealand is a Dominion, I do not object to the word " Dominion."
We ourselves understand New Zealand is a Dominion, but I would
like it understood that our country is covered by that term here.
CHAIRMAN : Shall I read the resolution through ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : For my part I would like to see it
before me. The only reason why it is suggested we should finally
close the discussion to-day is simply in order to give it to the Press.
Mr. F. E. MOOR : May we have the last paragraph read again i
CHAIRMAN: I will read the whole of it from the beginning:
" That it will be to the advantage of the Empire if Conferences, to
" be called Imperial Conferences, are held every four years, at which
" questions of common interest may be discussed, and considered as
'■ between His Majesty's Government and Governments of the self-
" governing Dominions. The Prime Minister of the United King-
" dom will be ex officio President, and the Prime Ministers of the
" self-governing Colonies ex officio members of the Conference. The
" Secretary of State for the Colonies will be an ex officio member of
" the Conference, and will take the chair in the absence of the
" President, and will arrange for such Imperial Conferences after
"communication with the Prime ^Ministers of the respective Domin-
" ions. That it is desirable to establish a system by which the
"several Governments represented shall be kept informed during the
" periods between the Conferences in regard to matters which have
" been or may be subjects for discussion by means of a ijcrmanent
" secretarial staff, charged under the direction of the Secretary of
" State for the Colonies with the duty of obtaining information for
"the use of the Conference, of attending to its resolutions, and of
" conducting correspondence on matters relating to its affairs. That
" upon matters of importance, either in this country or in His
" Majesty's Dominions beyond the seas which require consultation
" in common between two or more of the Governments, or which
" cannot be conveniently postponed until the next Conference, or
" which involve subjects of a minor character, or such as require
" detailed consideration, subsidiary Conferences should be held be-
" tween the representatives of such Dominions and the ^Mother
" Country specially chosen for the purpose."
Dr. SMARTT: Surely the word "Dominions" would not refer
COLONIAL COyPERENOE, 1907 83
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
to the various Colonies in South Africa. It would not be a dominion Third Day.
unless it were federated like Canada or Australia; New Zealand '*"iqn7'"^"'
might he called a Dominion, it being two islands under one Govern- 1
ment, but you could not call Cape Colony a dominion. „ Future
Constitution
CHAIRMAN : Yes,—" self-governing Dominion " is what we of the
call you here. Couferenoe.
(Dr.
Dr. SMARTT: Is not the word "Dominions" in the title of the Smartt.)
King?
CHAIRMAN : In the King's title the words " Dominions beyond
the seas " cover everything, and it was in order to restrict the term
to self-governing parts of the Empire beyond the seas that we put in
the words " self-governing."
Mr. DEAKIN : I prefer the words " Dominions concerned "
which point back directly to those engaged in the Conference. The
words " such Dominions " leave it at large.
CHAIRMAN: Personally, I agree with Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
and should like to look through it when it is copied.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think we should consider it. It is
too important a matter to pass over without having a moment of
reflection about it. We know the importance of this document, and
I think it is worth while to be a little careful about its wording.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Personally, I should like to use a happier
term as reflecting the Colonies we represent in South Africa. We
have not yet got to that condition of things when we might be safely
designated as Dominions, and I think, with Sir Wilfrid Laurier, it
might be just as well to think the matter over carefully.
Mr. DEAKIN : There is no possible objection to that, except the
natural disappointment of the public, which, however, might be miti-
gated if the precis of the discussion were now presented without
giving the resolution arrived at — just the outline of the discussion
in a general way. Otherwise, if they have to wait until Saturday,
it means that Australia will not have the information until Monday
or Tuesday.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: As I understand, we have really
got through the committee stage and the report stage, and all that
remains, with regard to the resolution, is the third reading; so that
we shall not have to begin detailed consideration again.
CHAIRMAN : I understand that we pass the Resolution, and it
is only a question of wording which remains open.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It stands for third reading, as Mr.
Churchill says, and we have time to consider the expressions.
Mr. DEAKIN: There is no objection now to a precis being
given to the Press.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I would not give the preck until
we give the Resolution itself.
CHAIRMAN: The next meeting of the Conference is fixed for
Saturday, at 11 o'clock. There were two other points on the agenda
paper for to-day. One is as to the organisation of the Colonial
Office which was incidentally mentioned in the discussion, and I do
not'know that I have any more to say than I have said, but if Mr.
58— 6J
84 COLOXIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Third Day. Deakiii wishes to have it further discussed we had better defer .it to
l^'l^-P'''- another day.
„ . Mr. DEAKIX: I would like some further discussion upon it.
Future
Conrtitiition CHAIRilAX : The other resolution is with re^'ard to Imperial
Conference. Defence. That Eesolutiou is from Australia : " That it is desirable
(Chairman.) " t^^^* ^^^ Colonies should be represented on the Imperial Council
" of Defence, and that the Colonies be authorised to refer to that
" Council for advice any local questions in jegard to which any
" expert opinion or assistance is deemed desirable." Perhaps if I
make the statement which the Prime Minister has given me, it would
meet the whole case. The Prime Minister considers that it might
be with advantage made clear to the representatives of the Colonies
at the coming Conference that the Committee of Imperial Defence
is intended to provide the means of discussing questions of a general
or local character relating to defence. It should, therefore, be open
to the Government of any self-governing Colony to submit these
questions through the Colonial Office and to obtain such advice as
the Committee is able to give. If so desired any representative of a
colony which may wish for advice may be summoned to attend as a
member of the Committee during the discussion on the question
raised.
ilr. DEAKIN: That practically meets the proposal, though I
should like to have the opportunity of speaking to the Secretary of
the Committee of Defence who has not only a national, but an es-
tablished Australian reputation, before this is finally disposed of.
It appears to be completely satisfactory.
CHAIRMAN: I think the members of the Conference under-
stand that the Committee of Imperial Defence is a body which con-
sists of one permanent .member, the Prime Minister, and the other
members are summoned as occasion requires. Therefore, this pro-
position really deals with the Colonial question on exactly the same
principle.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: When will that come up for considera-
tion?
CriAIRM-\X: I do not know whether it requires any more con-
sideration.
Mr. DEAKIN: I want to speak to the Secretary upon it.
CHAIRifAX: That is all I have to say as to the Counnittee.
Military defence is the subject of the next meeting, and naval de-
fence is part of the business for next week.
Sir ■\VILFHID L.M'RTKK: With regard to the resolution we
have just agreed upon, I would like to call attention to the fact that
we have not at all settled what is to be the status of the Colonial
Ministers in London. Sir William Lyne brought that matter for-
ward, and we have left it at present.
CHAIRifAX : I thought at the time we dealt with that question,
I pointed out I only mentioned the ex officio members, but the whole
resolution means that there is to Jae discussion between the Govern-
ments, and the representatives of the Governments other than the
ex officio members will attend, and I thought it was understood —
and .1 tiiink vou. Sir Wilfrid, liiitint(><l it — that the particular ques-
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 85
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tion of tlio iU'tual luaiiner in wliich the other ilinisters should come Thirrl Day.
in phoulrl be vloferred hevond this resohition and taken separately. '**tli April,
1007
Sir WILFRID LAUEIEK: At that time I had in mind that we -
should not pass this finally, but the matter is left altogether abso- , Future
lutely unsettled. '"of the'""
Mr. DEAKIN : I proiwsed to bring it forward myself, only we < '^'"fereuce.
became absorbed in this discussion. (than man.)
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: If that is so we shall have to think
it over a little more.
CHAIRILIN : I hope if you do wish to alter the resolution on
that particular point it will not mean that we shall have more than
a third reading.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER: We have practically agreed to it,
but the other is a point of some practical importance, and we ought
to come to some clear understanding about it.
Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly. At the present Conference the under-
standing is that the Prime Minister and one colleague would take
part in each di.scussion, while on special matters when the occasion
demands it, other Ministers might be asked to take part.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have two of my colleagues here,
and I should not like to come without either.
CHAIRilAN: The business on Saturday is as to militaiy de-
fence.
Mr. DEAKIX: We must conclude this first, and perhaps we
might meet lualf an hour earlier to finish it before our appointment
with Mr. Haldane at 11.
CHAIRilAN : I will inquire if it is necessary, and will let you
know. I have been making inquiries of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, .who is exceedingly busy just now with the Budget, and he
informs me that he is obliged to go to Scotland one daj- at the be-
ginning of next week, and therefore if it suits the Conference he
would prefer to take a daj' in the following week for the discussion
of the trade question. In that case he fixes Tuesday, April 30th, for
preferential trade. The question, therefore, is what subjects we
should take on Tue.sday and Thursday next week. I believe the
First Lord of the Admiralty is willing to come on Tuesday for the
discussion of naval matters, and then the subject of emigration can
be taken on Thursday.
Adjourned to Saturday morning at 11 o'clock.
86 COLOXIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Fourth Day. FOURTH DAT.
20th April,
190".
Held at the Colonul Office, Downing Street.
Saturday, 20th April, 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EAEL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
Tlie Eight Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Mili-
tia and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fish-
eries (Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Com-
mon-wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir William Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of Stat^
for Trade and Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.!M.G., Prime Minister of
Xe-n- Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, ,C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Honourable F. E. Moor, Minister of Natal.
The Eight Honourable Sir E. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister
of Newfoundland.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of tihe
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M^.P., Parliamentary Under-Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of
State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,? , • , o i •
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., P"*"' Secretanes.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also present:
The Right Honourable E. B. IIaldane, K.C. M.P., Secretary of
State for War.
• General the Honourable Sir Neville Lyttelton, K.C.B., Chief
of the Genexal Staff.
General Sir W. G. Nicholson, K.C.B., Quartermaster-General.
lEajor-General Douglas IIaio, C.B., Director of ^Military Train-
ing.
jrajor-Oeneral J. S. Ewart. C.B., Director of l\[ilitary Opera-
tions.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1007 87
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, before we begin business I may just Fourth Day.
remind you that our numbers are complete with the arrival of Sir 1907^" '
Robert Bond. I hope that I may extend a welcome to him from the
Conference, and I may, perhaps, mention that I have had the ad-
vantage of an interview with him at which I explained what had
taken place at the meetings before he was able to attend, and I think
he will 1)6 able to say that as far as he is concerned he is ready that
matters should go on from the point which they had reached at the
last meeting.
Sir ROBERT BOND: My Lord, and gentlemen, permit me to
convey to your Lordship an expression of my sincere thanks for
your kind cordial greeting and welcome to this Conference, and to
say that it is a matter of very great regret to me, that, owing to cir-
cumstances over which I liad no control, I was prevented from being
here at the opening of this Conference, and from thus having the
privilege of listening to the opening address of the Right Honourable
the Prime Minister. Your Lordship has very kindly had me fur-
nished this morning with a copy of the proceedings, and I have been
able to pursue with botti pleasure and profit the words of wisdom
and encouragement contained in Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman's
address. I am pleased to notice that the Prime Minister in bringing
directly under the notice of this Conference the agenda of business
that is to engage its attention, did not limit its deliberations to
matters therein set forth; that he very gracefully recognised that,
owing to the different conditions appertaining in tlie Colonies, it is
scarcely possible that we can all approach the consideration of the
various subjects that are to engage our attention from precisely the
same standpoint ; that our dealings with many of those matters
must be necessarily governed by the opinions and desires of those we
represent, and that our conclusions must be subject to tiie approval
of our respective Parliaments. The Empire stands before the world
to-day as probably the greatest expression of national expansion that
the world has ever seen, and this, my Lord, I think has been brought
about by due and proper regard for public opinion in the various
States or Colonies that comprise the Empire. Therefore, I submit
that nothing but good can come from the recognition of the prin-
ciple that Sir Henry Campbell-Baiinerman set forth in his address.
May I be permitted, my Lord, to join in the expression of regret
that has proceeded from the Conference in reference to the illness
of that distinguished statesman who presided over the affairs of the
Conference in 1902. Probably no British statesman has ever had
such a warm place in the affection of the Colonies as Mr. Chamber-
lain. His illness, therefore, has occasioned the deepest concern
throughout all the Colonies of the Empire. In joining in the hope
that has been expressed by this Conference I am not only voicing
my own heartfelt desire, but I am sure I am echoing the desire of
those I have the honour to represent.
May I also be permitted, my Lord, to join with those who paid a
tribute of respect to the memory of the late Prime Minister of New
Zealand, Mr. Seddon. We who sat with him in conference five years
ago will remember wfth admiration his strong personality and wide
imperialism, and I think all who watched his political career cannot
have failed to appreciate that by his decease a great and unique
character aud empire-builder has passed away. As the Prime Min-
88 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
^flnf*** ^^l' ^^^^^ remarked, my Eigtt Honourable friend. Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
1907_ ' and myself are the only two members of this Conference who sat in
the former one, five years ago. I am quite sure that it is a satisfac-
(Sir R. tion to both of us that the vicissitudes incident to public life have
°" ■' not come our way, and that we are again privileged to join in this
important Conference.
I again thank you, my Lord, and the other Members of the Con-
ference for your kindly welcome to-day.
Future FUTURE CONSTITUTIOX OF THE CONFERENCE.
Constitutiou
of the CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, we have met at au earlier hour this
morning in order that we might formally adjust the Resolution
which was, in principle, accepted at our last meeting. I have en-
deavoured to get it so far as I could into shaps in certain details
that the Conference desired, and it has been in your hands, and I
shall be glad to hear if there are any remarks to be made.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I am satisfied with it so far as
Canada is concerned. Sir Robert Bond might not have had the
facility, perhaps, of perusing the discussions. I do not know whether
he has or not.
Sir ROBERT BOXD: Xo, I have not fully perused the discus-
sion. Sir Wilfrid. I only received the papers this morning, and con-
sequently but glanced throiigh them.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The question which we have been
discussing, Sir Robert Bond, has been the creation of an Imperial
Council, and we have come to the conclusion that this was not
advisable, and this is what we have drafted, endeavouring to meet as
far as we could the difl'erent opinions that have jsrevailed. I observe.
Sir Robert, that in the despatch that you sent in answer to the Colo-
nial Office despatch on this subject you do not seem to favour the
creation of such a Council. This is what we have practically agreed
to subject to modification, of course, nothing being settled until it is
finally passed: "' That it will be to the advantage of the Empire if
'■ Conferences to be called Imperial Conferences are held every four
"years at which questions of common interest may be discussed and
"considered as bet^veen Ills Majesty's Government and the Govern-
" ments of the self-governing Dominions. The Prime Minister of
" the United Kingdom will be ex-officio President, and the Prime
" Ministers of the self-governing Dominions ex-officio members of
" the Conference. The Secretarj- of State for the Colonies will be
" an ex-officio Member of the Conference, and will take the chair in
" the absence of the President, and will arrange for such Imperial
" Conferences after communication with the Prime Ministers of tlic
" respective Dominions."' This paragraph, so far as it goes, meets
with the approval of Canada: "Such other ilinisters as the respec-
" tive Governments may appoint will also be members of the Con-
" ference — it being understood that except by special permission of
" the Conference, each discussion will be conducted by not more than
" two representatives from each Government, and that each Govern-
" nicnt will have only one vote."
CHAIRMAN: That part was not before the last meeting.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: So far as I am concerned I may say
at once "that I am satisfied with this.
COLON I Ah CONFERENCE, 1907 89
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CIIAIK.MAN: I think Sir Robert Bond has seen it. Fourth Day.
20th 4nril
Sir EGBERT BOND : I have it before me, and may observe that 1907. '
Lord Elgin showpd me last evening this Resolution, when I inti-
mated to him that with the principle involved I concurred. Constibition
CHAIRjrAN: If you arc taking it paragraph by paragraph, °| ^^^
there is just a small matter Mr. Deakin has mentioned to me. It is _. «-,-.■>
only to break up the last sentence, and he suggests there should be a Laurier.)
stop after the word " President "— " The Secre'tary of State for the
'■ Colonies will be an ex-officio member of the Conference and will
" take the chair in the absence of the President." It is quite true
that the last part of the sentence has not a very direct connection
with the first. I propose that we should strike out the w»rd '' and "
and begin the sentence with " He."
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Tes.
CHAIRMAN: There is one other point I think I ought to call
the attention of the Conference to. We agreed, and I am not going
back upon the agreement, "that instead of the word "Colonies" we
should use the word "Dominions;" but is it sufficiently defined if
we use the word "Dominions" alone throughout? After all, we, in
this country, are part of His Majesty's self-governing Dominions
strictly speaking, and I would suggest "that we might take what is
really the official term " the Dominions beyond the seas " in the first
place where it occurs — " the Governments of the self-governing
Dominions beyond the seas," and any other reference to it in the
course of the Resolution might very well be " Dominions." That
would make it absolutely clear what we mean by the expression in
the first place.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes, I see no objection to that as
far as I am concerned.
CHAIRMAN : Then we will insert the words " beyond the seas "
after " Dominions " in the first place.
Dr. JAMESON: There is another small point. I should like to
see the singular instead of the plural used in the firet two lines of
the first paragraph — " A Conference to be called the Imperial Con-
ference is held every four years," &e. I think it would make it more
emphatic than the word " Conferences." It is simply substituting
the singular number for the plural.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think it would read very much better.
Sir ROBERT BOND: I think it is a very decided improvement.
I think it is far more emphatic.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think so too.
CHAIRMAN: Then subject to those alterations we agree to the
first paragraph.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Somebody has suggested to me that
instead of having " His Majesty's Government " w-e should have
" the Government of the L'nited Kingdom." I suppose we are all
His Majesty's Governments.
CHAIRMAN : It is a technical term for His Majesty's Govern-
ment here.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes, it is very well understood,
90 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
^ftHy**! ^?y ''"*■ suppose we said " the Government of the United Kingdom," as
1907. ' ' ^^ ^'^ claim to be His Majesty's Governments. -
j-yjyj.g ilr. DEAKiy : " As between His Majesty's Government of the
Constitution " United Kingdom and His Governments of the self-governing
of the '' Dominions bevond the seas."
Conference.
<Sir Wilfrid Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That would meet my views. The
Laurier.) point was brought to my notice by a friend, but " His Majesty's
Government " is such a technical expression that there can be no
mistake about it.
Mr. DEAKIX : " His Majesty's Government " in Canada means
the Canadian Government.
Dr. JAMESON : Why not " His Majesty's Government and His
Governments of the self-governing Dominions."
Mr. DEAKIX : Yes, that is an improvement.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I am satisfied with that.
CHAIRMAN : And leave " His Majesty's Government.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, substituting "His" for "the."
CHAIRMAN: Next come the words with regard to the Minis-
ters.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That satisfies me.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I do not know what has been done in
reference to that first paragraph which Sir Wilfrid Laurier read.
There has been some alteration made and I could not catch it.
CHAIRMAN: They are only verbal alterations. We have altered
the first words into " A Conference to be called the Imperial Con-
" ference is held " instead of putting it in the plural, and we have
made the words to run " as between His Majesty's Government and
" His Government of the self-governing Dominions beyond the
" seas," that is all. Then there is the addition " Such other Minis-
" ters as the respective Governments may appoint will also be
" members of the Conference — it being understood that except by
" special permission of the Conference each discussion will be con-
" ducted by not more than two representatives from each Govern-
" ment and that each Government will have only one vote " — is that
agreed to.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Clearly.
CHAIRMAN: Now the second paragraph of the Resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN : I have a suggestion to make in this paragraph.
You were good enough to adopt throughout this Resolution the
language submitted by one or other of the different states, and con-
sequently it now reads: "That it is desirable to establish a system
" by which the several Governments represented shall be kept in-
" formed during the periods between the Conferences in regard to
" matters which have been or may be subjects for discussion, by
" means of a permanent secretarial staff charged under the direc-
" tion of the Secretary of State for the Colonies," and so on. But
the word " secretarial " has ceased to have a meaning or, at all
events, the meaning that was attached to it when first brought for-
ward. What is now intended is not a separate body, but a branch of
the Colonial Oflice. On referring to your remarks, my Lord, I notice
COLONIAL COyPERENOE, 1907 91
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
that you stated your intention was to separate the departments of Fourth Day.
this office. You will have a distinct division which will not be ex- " j9^7^'^''*
actly apart in the department, but will be the one division concerned
with the business of all (he self-governing Colonies, and will not be „ ■'^'J*?'"^.
directly concerned with that of the Crown Colonies. I do not think of the
that can be distinguished from the rest of the Colonial Office by Conference,
being called a secretariat, because practically all your office is a (**r-
secretariat. It is for you, my Lord, to select the phrase which would
best define your own intention, but as this stands, it appears to me
that what is intended is merely that this work should be carried out
by means of a portion of the staS under the direction of the Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies, which shall be charged with the duty
of whatever work may be allotted. The proposal for a secretariat
was a proposal for a body independent of this or any other depart-
ment. It was to be a kind of joint and several department under the
control of the Prime Minister of Great Britain. As such, the word
''secretariat'" was necessary, in order to make it quite clear that
there was no intention of creating a body with any authority other
than to perform the necessary secretarial, statistical, and other work
cast upon it by the Conference or by some of the Governments re-
presented. That was specially necessary to meet Sir Wilfrid
Laurier's criticism, but under the present circumstances that pro-
posal has entirely disappeared. This proposal is nothing like it.
The present project is that there shall be a portion of the Colonial
Office, a distinct division, not exactly set apart, which is to deal with
us. Consequently the former title appears to me to be no longer
appropriate. My own suggestion is tihat we should now indicate
what is intended, and it is for you, my Lord, to say what is intended.
CHAIEMAN: I do not mean to go into further details, for the
reason I gave at the former meeting, but I may just say that in my
own mind I had intended to go a little more towards meeting you
than you have expressed. Our practice in this office hitherto has
been to select gentlemen from our staff who we thought, and i think
quite rightly, were well qualified to prepare the business for Uie t^ou-
ference, and to act as its secretaries. What we have in our minds to
carry out, and hope to be able to carry out in the future, is that we
should appoint a gentleman on our staff to be the Secretary for the
Conference, not for one Conference only, but t-o continue the busi-
ness as a member of the staff of the office and in a division of the
office, as I said before, but that being his specific duty, thereby focus-
sing all the business in the way which I think the members of the
Conference in their various resolutions expressed the desire it should
be. That is what we hope to do, and that is the reason we use the
expression " secretarial staff." You quite understand, I think, that
we can make that arrangement without interfering with the respons-
ibility or organisation of the office, but still in such a manner, I
think, so far as it is capable of being done within the walls of the
office, as to meet the wishes that the other members of the Confer-
ence have expressed. That is the meaning of the expression. I have
no objection to one form or the other, because we can do it either
way.
Mr. DEAKIN : Have you any objection then to substituting
'■ A portion of the staff under the direction of the Secretary of State
92
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
Fourth Day. " for the Colonies whieli shall be charged with the dutv " ? I
20th April, •. ,i
iqnr ^^ more correctly expresses it.
1907
Future
Constitution
of the
Conference.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
think
expresses
Sir JOSEPH WAED : I think it is better to leave it as it stands.
Dr. JAMESON: Do you not think that the further explanation
which the Secretary of State has made shows that he is anxious to
meet, as far as possible, our extreme views expressed the other day.
Mr. F. E. ilOOE: Not extreme, but advanced.
Dr. JAMESON: Advanced is better. It is better to leave the
word in as foreshadowing what is coming at the next Conference to
meet our views expressed the other day. I should like to see it
remain.
Mr. DEAKIN : It is for Lord Elgin to consider.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIEE : I do not care how it is expressed so
long as it is on ^Ministerial responsibility. That is the only thing I
attach importance to.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : The point raised by Mr. Deakin is quite
a clear one, and no doubt it would probably more correctly indicate
what the actual decision is, but I have a preference for indicating
a permanent secretarial staff.
Mr. DEAKIN : If you appeal to me on the ground of preference,
I am bound to agree.
Sir JOSEPH iWAED : Upon that ground I assume you will vote
for it as it is.
I will.
Then it will stand as it is.
Yes.
Then we pass the second paragraph. The third
paragraph we hope we have put into shape as regards words.
Sir Wn.FEin LAl'EIEE: That will be the fourth paragraph
now?
CHAIEMAN : Yes. The paragraph is " That upon matters of
" importance, requiring consultation between two or more Govern-
" ments, which cannot conveniently be postponed until the next Con-
'■ ference, or involving subjects of n minor character or such as call
" for detailed consideration, subsidiary conferences should be held
■' between representatives of the Governments concerned, specially
■' chosen for the purpose."
Mr. DEAKIN: The only suggestion I have there is that in the
Inst line, instead of " the Governments concerned,'' which seems to
point only to such of tlio Governments as are named in the first
sentence, including only the larger self-governing States such as
Canada and Australia, it might bo well to substitute the word " any "
for the word " the " — " any Governments concerned " — in order to
cover the introduction nrf matters which are purely Provincial in
Canada, or purely State in Australia, or a mixture of both. This
wi'uld plainly indicate that it was in contemplation that members of
both classes of (Jovcrnmrnis might, if necessary, take part in the
subsidiary confrren<>c-s wlicn the subjects with which those confer-
ences were dealing were wholly or chiefl.y within the domain of
either State or Provincial Governments. The federal and local gov-
Mr. DEAKIN:
CHAIEMAN:
Mr. DEAKIN:
CHAIEMAN :
ruLoyjAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 93
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ernments might both be represented when dealing with special I'ouith Day.
subjects when they were within the constitutional powers of both '"^Ho^-'"^'^'
sets of Governments. 1
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I think that ought to be done. I am just Cols'tUntion
a littlo in doubt as to the intention of the word " chosen," always of the
assuming, in the ordinary practical working of the respective Gov- Conference,
ernments of the several countries, that Canada and Australia desire Deakin )
to have a conference upon an important matter, this Resolution
rather supposed they would have to be chosen by probably all the
memlx-rs of the Conference,
CHAIRilAX: No, chosen by each Government. It only meant
it was not necessarily chosen under the restrictions of the Confer-
ence.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I am quite satisfied wnth the Reso-
lution as it is. If I understand Jfr. Deakin aright, what he had in
his mind was that the State Governments of Australia or the Pro-
vincial Governments of Canada might have the power to come within
the scope of this Resolution. For my part I, with all due respect,
differ altogether from this. I think we should provide here for the
Governments which are here represented. There may be differences
in Canada or in Australia between tlie Federal Governments and the
State Governments. I do not think this oiig'ht to be encouraged at
all ; on the contrary, for my part, I lielieve in one respect our con-
stitution is better than that of Australia, in that the power is in the
central Government and is not in the State as with theirs. Even
in the best and most satisfied countries, like Canada at present, we
may have differences of opinion between the Federal and State
Governments. There is one at present betwen us and the Govern-
ment of British Columbia, and Lord Elgin has authorised the
Government of British Columbia to come here as to some matter
which has been in issue between them and us, that is to say, between
British Columbia and Canada. This will always he done whenever
a Province or State appeals to the Imperial Government here. They
are always sure to have a hearing, but I would, for my part, depre-
cate the introduction of anything which is not here strictly relevant
to, and confined to, the relation between the Government of the
T'nited Kingdom and the Governments here represented.
Mr, DEAJKIN: Am I to understand. Sir Wilfrid, that education
is a wholly Provincial question in Canada, or is it a national ques-
tion?
Sir WILFRID LA FRIER: Purely a Provincial question,
Mr. DEAKIX : Exactly, A conference may be desired in Greatj
Britain, as there is, I understand, a meeting relating to education'
shortly to be held here to which representative men from the dif-
ferent Provinces of Canada probably, and certainly from the different
States of AustraKa, are coming, Xow if it were desired that a
conference of that kind should be held, would it not be well that it
should be related, although in a different way, to this branch of the
Colonial Office, which is to undertake the caie of the matters relat-
ing to the self-governing Colonies? I feel the force of your observa-
tion so far as it i-elates to a conference, if one could imagine it. at
which any difference between the Xatioual Government of Canada
and its Provinces were to be brought forward. I can hardly imagine
94
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Fourth Day.
20th April,
1907.
Future
Constitutiou
of the
Conference.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
Resolntion
L.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
such a conference, and do not see a necessity for thinking it in
advance. What was in my mind was the possibility of conferences
in regard, say. to education, or to methods of administration of
criminal justice, or hygiene, which are partly State and partly
Federal, and which can come under both, or which were held solely
between our States and your Provinces, or some of them and dther
local bodies. If a conference were held in regard to any of those
subjects, should it or should it not be associated with this branch of
the Colonial OiSce which has to deal with the affairs of the self-
governing Colonies, and therefore properly mentioned here, or should
it be looked upon as something quite apart and not in relation to
this part of the Colonial Office?
Sir VVILFEID LAUEIEE : I should conceive it as a conference
quite apart. For my part I do not see the necessity at all for this
last paragraph. I think it is quite surplusage and means nothing at
all. If you have a conference upon various things, either defence,
or education, or anything of that kind, it will always be called as a
purely voluntary body, as is done constantly. But if, on 'the subject
of education, for instance, the conference to be called were to put in
question the terms of the Act which at present puts the subject of
education under the Provincial governments, any amount of mischief
might be created, and therefore, I do not think it is a good thing.
But if it be that the Conference is called simply to advance and
promote education, or give a larger scope to it, I can quite under-
stand that it would be a purely voluntary conference to give advice.
I would be afraid under the terms of this Conference you might
bring in political questions which would create very serious embar-
rassment to us.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: I understood this paragraph applied en-
tirely to the governments represented by the Prime Ministers who
are here, and it should not go beyond that. If it goes beyond that
I foresee all sorts of complication.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not press it then at this juncture.
Sir WILFRID LAT'EIER: I am satisfied.
CHAIEMAN: What is the result?
Sir WILFEID LAl'EIEE : Let it go as it is.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.
CHAIEMAX : Then I put it that this Eesolution is the Resolu-
tion of the Conference.
The Eesolution. as nmcnded, was carried unanimously.
Military
Defence.
SULITARY DEFENCE.
CHAIRMAN: We have now the advantage of the presence of
the Secretary of State for War, who will give us his views. I think
it will be the wish of the Conference that I should ask the Secretary
of State for War to address us.
;\rr. IIALDANE: iMy Lord Chairman and gentlemen, I think it
will be for the convenience of the Conference that I should state
very shortly what the point is that seems to us to be most important
for discussion, and for arriving at some fairly clear conclusion.
To plunge at once into things, the effect of the war in South
COLOSIAL COyFEREyCE, 1301
95
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Africa made a profound impression on the minds of our advisers Fourth Day.
here. We realised that we had gone into that war without adequate " ioqI"^
preparation for war on a great scale, and that we had never fully '-
apprehended the importance of the maxim that all preparation in Military
time of peace must be preparation for war; it is of no use unless it ^/iTr"*'^'
is designed for that; it is the only justification for the maintenance Halda^ne.)
of armies — the preparation for war. In consequence, when the war
was over, the then Government set to work — and the present Govern-
ment has continued the work — to endeavour to put the modern mili-
tary organisation into shape. In 1904 a very important Committee
sat. It was presided over by a civilian who had given great attention
to the study of military organisation. Lord Esher, and it contained on
it two very distinguished exponents of naval and military views, Sir
•John Fisher and Sir George Clarke, as its other members. The
Committee reported, and its report contained a complete scheme for
the re-organisation of the War Office and of the Army. That scheme
was adopted by the late Government and has been carried on by the
present Government. One broad feature is this, that our naval organi-
sation has been the one with which we have been conspicuously
successful in the history of this country as distinguished from our
military organisation, and, therefore, as far as was possible, the
naval organisation was taken as a type. But the broad feature which
emerged with regard to military preparations was this: Count
Moltke was able to organise victory for the Prussian and German
armies in 1866, and again in 1870, becaiise he and the general staff
working under him were free to apply their minds wholly to war
preparation. That he was able to do this was due to the fact that the
organisation and business administration of the army in peace were
kept entirely distinct from the service which consisted in the study
of war problems and in the higher training of the stafF and of the
troops. That was the principle recommended by the Esher Com-
mittee, and it culminated in the provision of a brain for the army in
the shape of a General Staff. That General Staff we have been at
work on for a long time past in endeavouring to get together. The
task was not as difficult as it seemed at first, because the effect of the
war was to bring to the front a number of young officers who had
shown remarkable capacity and who constituted the nucleus of a
serious and thoughtful military school. They were got together
under the Esher re-organisation and virtually there has been a Gen-
eral Staff in existence for some time. But it was not until last
September that it received formal and complete shape in the Army
Order of that month. The General Staff is now a de jure body; it
has been a de facto existing body for some time past. The result of
this re-Organisation, which is now complete, is that I am able to attend
this Conference with certain distingiiished officers who are with me
to-day to furnish any information requisite. Sir Neville Lyttelton,
the Chief of the General Staff, is by my side. Sir William Nicholson,
the Quartermaster-General, is with him, and also Sir George Clarke,
who played a great part in the Esher re-organisation, and who is
secretary of the Imperial Defence Committee. I have also with me
here General Ewart. Director of Military Operations, and General
Haig. the Director of Military Training.
The practical point that we have to put before you is the desir-
ability of a certain broad plan of military organisation for the Em-
pire. We know that you have all got your own difficulties and the
idiosyncrasies of your own people to deal with. No rigid model is
96
COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
Fourth Dav.
20th April,
1907.
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Haldane.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
therefore of use. But a common purpose or a common end may be
very potent in furthering military organisation. For ourselves we
have over here worked out our organisation quite definitely, and,
indeed, the practical form of it is at present the subject of plans
which are before Parliament. This conception of defence is that the
Army should be divided into two parts with distinct functions. There
is a part with defence as its primary main function, and it has no
obligation to go over the sea. That is raised by the citizens of the
particular dominion of the Crown concerned, simply for the purpose
of home defence. There is the other part which exists not for local
defence, but for the service of the Empire as a whole, the expedi-
tionary force, which, in a country like ours, must be naval as well as
military, — and I go further and say primarily naval. There is the
Fleet, which, in order to make the defence of the Empire what we
all hope and believe it is, and are convinced that it must remain if
the Empire is to hold together, must have the complete command of
the sea, and must be stronger than the fleet of any other Power, or,
for that matter, of any other two Powers. And, in conjunction with
that there is an expeditionary force consisting of regular troops
which we have just re-organised at home. This expeditionary force,
working in conjunction with the Navy, will be able to operate at a
distance for the defence of the Empire as a whole. Behind that,
which I call the first line, our conception is a second line consisting
of those home defence troops of which I have spoken. The events of
a few years ago showed that the Empire could act as a whole, and
that in a supreme emergency these home defence forces wotdd pour
forth for the defence of something more than their own shores. But
that rests upon voluntary effort and not upon any rigid pattern. Our
main purpose in bringing this subject before you to-day is to em-
phasise the desirability so far as possible that these home forces of
the various self-governing dominions of the Crown should be organ-
ised, if not to a common pattern — because rigidity of pattern we
recognise is impossible with the varying circumstances of the var-
ious countries — yet with a common end in view and with this common
conception.
At home we may have our territorial Army, if the scheme before
Parliament just now goes through. That would be our second line
At home you, Sir Wilfrid, have your Canadian Militia, a creation
which may be said in its function and purpose very much to corres-
pond with what is in our mind in the territorial Army. Mr. Doakiu
has the same idea in his. mind in organisation, and I think Sir
Joseph Ward has also, and I believe the same idea is in the minds of
the South African Premiers. So that it seems to me we have all of
us got the broad idea of this distinction between the first, or expedi-
tionary force, and the second or home defence line in our heads. If
it were well worked out, if the fact is made to correspond to the idea,
then it seems to me the Empire would be defended as no other nation
in the world is defended, because its resources would be available
from so many quarters. But in order to work on a common pattern
it is necessary that we .should have a connnon conception, and the
common conception, a matter of great intricacy and great complica-
tion when you pet to details, can only adequately be supplied by the
most skilled advisers, and that is where the utility of the General
Staff comes in. My main purpose in addressing the Conference is to
suggest for your acceptance the opinion that the General Staff which
we liave created nt home and which is in its infancy should receive
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 97
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
as far as possible au Imperial ciiaraeter. I will define what I mean. Fourth Day.
It is not that we wish in the slightest degree even to suggest that you 20th April,
should bow your heads to any direction from home in military mat- '_
ters, but the General Staff officer would have as his function this: Military
Trained in a great common school, recruited, it may be, from the Deience.
most varying parts of the Empire, but educated in military science „ \j ,
according to common principles, he would be at the disposition of the
local government or of the local Commander-in-Chief, whether he
were Canadian, British, or Australian, or New Zealander, or South
African, for giving advice and furnishing information based upon the
highest military study of the time. The General Staff is a class by
itself in the Army. It is so with the Grerman Army, and it is so with
the Japanese Army, it has just become so in the Russian Army, and
it is so in the French Army. It consists of the most highly trained
officers, picked men recruited for their known capacity, specially
trained, and then detailed to be at the elbow of the commanding
officer. The commanding officer, according to the theory of the Gen-
eral Staff, is unfettered; he has the complete power of accepting or
disregarding the advice of his General Staff officer, but he has at his
elbow somebody who is there with knowledge, with suggestion, with
advice, furnished with all the resources which are supplied from the
central school from which the General Staff officer comes, namely, the
headquarters of the General Staff. If I may put it a little more in
concrete, I will take an illustration, if I may, founded in Canada.
In Canada you have made some progress yourselves with the idea of
a General Staff, just as we have. You have, I think, some five Gen-
eral Staff officers in Canada at the present time. Now, as regards
your General Staff officers, although you have a distinguished British
General Staff officer with you. General Lake, there is no organic con-
nection between what is your General Staff in embryo and our Gen-
eral Staff as we have just created it here. But supposing we were
studying at home in the General Staff great questions of Imperial
Defence, and, amongst others, questions of Imperial Defence in
Canada, what an advantage it would be to us, and I think to you also,
if we sent you a General Staff officer, in exchange for one of your
General Staff officers, who should come over here and who should be
working with us at the very problems which concern the defence of
tlie Empire as a whole in Canada. And so with all the other affairs
in the Crown's Dominions. It seems to me that we might broaden
the basis of this General Staff which we have just created. It is a
purely advisory organisation of which command is not a function.
The beginning, of course, would have to be very modest. If these
things were! organised, and if we were to bring about such an inter-
change of officers as would tend to make the work of the General
Staff in the largest sense the work of a military mind which had sur-
veyed the defence of the Empire as a whole, it would, it seems to me,
do much to bring about that uniformity of pattern in organisation
and in weapons, and in other details regarding military matters,
which is to some extent essential if there is to be effective co-opera-
tion in a great war. I have circulated four papers for the informa-
tion of the Premiers. It is not probable in the pressure of other
business that you have all had time to read them.
Mr. DEAKIN: We only received them when we came here this
morning.
Mr. HALDANE : But I can give you in a few sentences the sub-
stance of them, and it the less matters if they have not been exten-
68—7
COLOSIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Haldane.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. sively read, because we are not proposing that they shotild be adopted
itm?"^'^' *® representing any hard-and-fast view.
The first of those papers, which are prepared by our experts here,
deals with " the strategical conditions of the Empire from a military
point of view," and it calls attention to the three great principles on
which I have touched — first ot all, the obligation of each self-govern-
ing community to provide, as far as possible, for its own local security ;
secondly, the duty of arranging for mutual assistance on some de-
finite lines in case of supreme common need; and thirdly, the neces-
sity for the maintenance of that sea supremacy which can alone en-
sure any military co-operation at all. Then the paper goes on to
indicate what we are trying to do in making our contribution to this
end : first, organising troops for home defence to repel raids — that is
the territorial army; secondly, a striking force, an expeditionary
force is the proper phrase — the striking force is that small portion of
it designed to act swiftly, and ready to assist any portion of the
Empire; thirdly, a navy capable of maintaining command of the sea.
Those principles may be said to represent the result of our reflections
upon the events of the late war.
The second paper points out the importance of assimilating as far
as practicable war organisation throughout the Empire, and of adopt-
ing a uniform system of nomenclature in regard to such organisa-
tion. The value of any assistance which the self-governing Domin-
ions may offer in the future to the mother country will be much
increased if it can be given in the form in which it can readily be
fitted into the organisation of an entire army in the field. On that
I should like to emphasise the absolute necessity of turning our atten-
tion to this in times of peace. It is too late when war breaks out.
You are at an enormous disadvantage if you conunence to organise
in concert for the first time after the breaking out of war. The third
paper relates to the patterns and provision of equipment and stores
for Colonial forces. The chief point made is that it is essential that
the small arms supplied to any force which may have to act side by
side with troops from the United Kingdom shall fire the same ammu-
nition as that supplied to the latter. A difference in ammunition is
one of the greatest curses in war time. This paper also emphasises
the necessity for the provision of adequate reserves of stores in peace
time. The fourth paper urges the desirability of the self-governing
Dominions, where possible and without interfering with their own
arrangements, giving their orders for ordnance stores, particularly
arms and ammunition, through the War Office, and it points out that
expedition and economy are likely to be secured if this is done. That
is a business matter for discussion. There is a great deal to recom-
mend it when you come to work it out in detail.
A very important thing touched on in this connection is the train-
ing of officers. We are just now endeavouring to organise a reserve
of officers. We have had a Committee sitting which has presented a
preliminary scheme, and I know that the question is also engaging
the attention of the self-governing Dominions at this time. If we
could do something to make that reser\-e of officers Imperial in the
same sense as the General Staff is Imperial, so that you could give us
from your reser\-e assistance in time of a great war, I am sure it
would bo n great source of strength. Besides, I need not point out
that any organisation of this kind is of the very greatest assistance to
peace, because it profoundly impresses the mind of foreign Oeneral
Staffs, who cannot be sure what reserve we have behind us when we
roi.oMM. COXFEREXCE. 1907
99
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
have troops aud officers organised over this tremendously wide area. Fourth Day.
20th April,
The general point nuide in this paper is that to attain these objects
probably tlie most desirable of all courses is the one I have indicated,
that the General Staff should be Imperial in the widest sense; and
we point out that we shall welcome Colonial officers in its ranks very
cordially, and we shall be very glad to send officers to you to take
their places in it. We do not want to ask you. unless you wish to do
it, to double the number of your own officers by sending some here
while you have to provide for other officers in their places at home.
If you like we should be very glad to send out General Staff officers
to take the places of those j'ou send to us and in that way to provide
a circulation. Our great object must be to make the General Staff
an imperial school of military thought, all the members of which are
imbued with the same traditions, accustomed to look al strategical
problems from the same point of view, and acquainted with the princi-
ples and theories generally accepted at headquarters.
The Imperial Reserve of Officers is a thing which I think may be
better discussed in detail. It is so complicated that I do not think
we could profitably go into it in this very short Conference; but on
all those points the War Office is a home for you so long as you
choose to be here; and if any of the gentlemen present who would
like to follow out' these things more in detail will come to us, we
have prepared all the information. We should be very glad if, for
instance, Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Sir Frederick Borden will com-
municate with us. either personally or through General Lake, fully
upon these points of detail as they come up; and I wish to say the
same with regard to the other Premiers.
I think I have really now put before you the general points.
There are some minor ones, which again are matters ofr discussion in
detail. If we get into the field together it is very desirable that we
should be under one military code, and as far as possible we ought
to arrange that whatever local arrangements may require in time of
peace, -it should always be kept in view that for discipline there
should be a certain military code in operation in time of war. How
you would deal with that is rather a question for you. One knows
the delicate susceptibility of people about anything like military rules
in time of peace, but probably you, with your Legislatures, can solve
these problems quite as easily as we can.
I think I may conclude by making a suggestion of the extent to
which we can go in this Conference in a practical direction, I mean
so far as this particular Conference is concerned. The working out
of details, as I have said, may well be done with Sir Neville Lyttel-
ton and the General Staff at the War Office, and General Nicholson,
the Quartermaster-General, is ready to assist in matters of adminis-
tration and questions connected with it. But it does seem to me that
it would be a great advance if we could agree upon a resolution in
this Conference focussing the broad purpose. As I have said, we
know that this thing must be founded simply upon the attaining of
a common purpose, the fulfilment of a common end. It cannot be by
the imposing of restrictions or by rigid plans which might not suit
the idiosyncrasies of particular countries. T have drafted some words
emphasising the question of the General Staff as the point, as the key
to the attaining of the working out of the common purpose, which
does seem to me to be possible as a common basis without in the least
interfering with individual liberty. The resolution I have drafted is
before you. I would like to say that if it is agreeable to the Confer-
58— 7J
1907
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Haldane.)
100
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
1907.
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Haldane.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. ence to adopt some such resolution as this, I should not desire that we
20th April, should stop there, but I should suggest that you should send your
experts over to the War Office to confer with our General Staff, and
any other department, as to the way of making an immediate begin-
ning in carrying out the broad principle which the resolution affirms.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: My Lord, Mr. Haldane, and gen-
tlemen, I am sure we have all been deeply interested in what we have
heard from Mr. Haldane, and I may say in a general way that I am
in very close sympathy with all he has said. There seem to be two
ideas involved in the consideration of this matter. I will not say the
chief, but certainly the first is the question of the defence of the dif-
ferent Dominions beyond the seas — I am not speaking now of these
islands — particularly the defence of those Dominions against attack
from without ; secondly, as I understand Mr. Haldane, the agreement
upon some method by which preparation might be made within those
different Dominions for effective co-operation with the central forces
of the Empire in the event of any severe strain or stress arising
which would involve the integrity of the Empire. The first proposal
is very easy, and I think, so far as most of the countries represented
here are concerned, is being carried on to a greater or less extent.
In Canada, without waiting to dwell in any detail upon what we have
done, I think we have there made considerable progress within the
last 10 years, and certainly very great progress since this Conference
met five, years ago. It should be pointed out at once, that so far as
the Dominions beyond the seas are concerned, at any rate so far as
Canada is concerned, we have no authority under our Militia Law to
do anything beyond expend money and make preparations for the
defence of Canada itself. We are absolutely limited in words to that.
We cannot call our Militia out for active service for any purpose be-
yond the defence of Canada. Although Canada took part in the
troubles in South Africa, it was done by a force which volunteered
specially for the pijrpose and made a special contract for that pur-
pose. I do not see very well how any responsibility could be under-
taken to supply any force for any other purpose without an amend-
ment in the law. Further, there is a provision within the law of
Canada that if it is desirable to contribute a force to Imperial defence
abroad. Parliament shall be called together, the idea being that each
case shall be dealt with when it arises.
Now I come more to the concrete part of !Mr. Haldane's state-
ment, particularly to the most important proposal, the resolution
which we have before us, with reference to the establishment of the
Oeneral Staff. T would like to know exactly, if I could, whether it is
intended that the General Staff which is responsible to the Home
Government and to the Army Council and the Secretary of State for
War, is to be linked in with General Staffs in the different parts of
the Empire, or whether this central General Staff is to have indepen-
dent nuthorit.v throughout the Empire and in the different Domin-
Mr. HALDANE: Not independent authority. It would be a
training school which would send out and lend out experts. Members
of your local General Staff might also be nienitiers of the Imperial
General Staff.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : It seems to me that that is a most
important consideration. I would certainly favour it strongly, and
.13 you have said, Mr. Haldane, Canada has already established a
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
101
Military
Defence.
(Sir F. W.
Borden.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
General Staflt in embrj'O, and we hope to develop it. We recognise Fourth Day.
the absolute necessity for the existence of such a body, but it really Jqj^-'"^'''
seems to me we should have our own General Staff responsible to the '-
Canadian Government— and in the same way all the other Domin-
ions— which might, as you suggested, I think, exchange officers with
your staff; but I scarcely think it would do to have officers in the
different Dominions who were responsible in the first place to
Secretary of State for War here.
Mr. HALDANE : The Imperial General Staff for this purpose is
a purely advisory body.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: So long as that is understood I
would concur in that view, and I am very strongly indeed in favour
of the idea of exchange of officers. I think we should do that, and
we are doing it between the different departments of the various
services of this country and the Dominion. I think, however, it is
absolutely necessary that that point should be thoroughly established,
because I can see difficulties in the way of an officer, for -instance, in
Canada considering himself to be in a position to advise, whether
directly or indirectly, the War Office, without responsibility to the
Minister who has charge of such matters in Canada and without res-
ponsilnlity to the principal military authority there. I do not wish
to elaborate that point any further, but I am glad to laiow that you
entirely concur in that view.
Mr. HALDANE: Certainly, and a memorandum will be drawn
up by Sir Neville Lyttelton which will be submitted to you making
that perfectly clear in detail, if wc agree to carry this resolution into
effect.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: I wiU not detain the Conference
by going into detail. I have read the paper proposed by the Army
Council for discussion, and so far as a layman is able to express an
opinion, it seems to roe to be an admirable paper and one in which I
thoroughly concur. There are, however, one or two points which I
would like to mention, and one is in connection with the very first
paragraph, where it is laid down that the fundamental principle of
the maintenance of the Empire rests primarily on supremacy at sea.
Wo must agree in that view, and in that connection I would like to
submit the advisability — the necessity, perhaps — for the establish-
ment in the different Dominions of factories, which will be able to
manufacture arms, for instance, and guns and ammunition, and so
on, which would render those communities safer in the event of the
misfortune occurring ot the sea control being temporarily lost. I
noticed in one of the other papers submitted some reference to the
necessity for having the different parts of the Empire — the forces of
the different parts of the Empire — armed with the same weapon, or
at any rate with a weapon using the same amunition. In Canada we
have encouraged the establishment of a rifle factory, which produces
rifles firing -303 ammunition, although the rifle differs somewhat in
mechanism. I would like to say here that I did my best to induce
one of the factories in England to establish a branch in Canada some
years ago to manufacture the Lee-Enfield rifle, but failed. I had to
do the next best thing, that is to get someone who was -willing to
establish a factory, and that has been done, and we hope, although
there has been some difficulty, that a very good rifle will be issued,
and, in fact, it is now being issued to the troops. It seems to me,
although nothing has been said about that in this very important
102
COLONIAL COyFEREyCE. 1907
1907
Military
Defence.
(Sir F. \r.
Borden.)
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
Fourth Day. paper, that that is a matter worth bringing to the attention of this
20th April, Conference, and that encouragement should be given to the difEerent
Colonies to bring about the estabhshment not only of small arms
factories but of factories which would manufacture ordnance as well.
With regard to one other matter which, as Mr. Haldane said, is a
matter of minor importance, that of purchasing through the War
Office such military stores as may be required, in the very connection
which I have just mentioned I would like to say that in 1900 Canada
wanted to purchase a considerable number of rifles here. I think I
wanted to purchase 15,000 rifles. I found it impossible to secure a
single rifle. After a time I was offered some 5,000 if I would wait
long enough. That is a condition of things which may arise — we
hope it will not — at any moment, and that is another argument in
favour of having an independent source of supply within the Dom-
inions themselves. It is also a reason why we should not be tied up
absolutely to purchase either from the War Office or through the
War Office. I agree that so far as possible it should be done. I
agree absolutely that we should purchase the same type of guns,
and guns that will use the same ammunition. So far as
Canada is concerned, we made a contract some years ago with
Yickers. Sons and Maxim for the new artillery gun, and I believe
the first delivery of those guns was made to Canada, but we were very
careful to impose the condition that the g^uns must be in every detail
first accepted by the War Office, and that the price we should pay
should be the price paid by the War Office. I cannot see that there
is any disagreeable competition in that. It has been suggested —
perhaps not in those papers — that wp are competing really with the
War Office in giving an order of that kind. There can be no com-
petition when we lay down as a very first principle that the price is
to be the War Office price, and also that the gun shall be precisely
the same gini. Those are perhaps matters of detail, but I thought it
only fair that I should make a statement as to what has actually
happened in that respect.
Now, in conclusion, I htive only to say that I am sure there is, so
far as the Canadian people, and so far as the Canadian Militia are
concerned — and this will apply to all the militar.v units of the Dom-
inion— only one desire, that is, to prepare in every possible way for
the full protection of our own territory. We have shown, by relieving
the War Office of the responsibility for the maintenance of Halifax
and Esquimalt, how far we are willing to go, and I think we showed
a few years ago. in the contingents that were sent to South Africa,
what the spirit is that animates the people of Canada when the Em-
pire seemed for a time to be in peril, I only wish to add that I be-
lie(v« thoroughly in the idea suggested here as to the adoption of
uniform organisation throughout the different parts of the Empire.
There can be no difficulty whatever as to that. We in Canada have
80 organised our militia system from top to bottom, so far as we
could do it. In the main we have adopted the principle that it is
absolutely desirable that we shoul<l follow the lead of the War Office
in all matters of organisation, provided you do not change too fre-
quently here, so that we cannot keep up with you. There can be no
difficulty in doing that, and it is certainly a desirable thing to do, I
believe thorouglil.v in the exchange of officers, T absolutely concur
in the ideas expressed as to the education of officers. We are very
glad indeed that the War Office here is giving us certain facilities in
the matter of educating our officers which we are trying to take the
COLOMAL COMEIfEXCE. 1007
103
Borden.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
full advantage of. Altogether, I think that matters are working very Fourth Day.
harmoniously, and I see no reason in the world why a great deal 20th .-Vpril,
might not be accomplished in the way of preparing for any supreme ^^^'^'
struggle which might take place — which we hope will not take place, Military
but which may take place — in the matter of keeping in close touch Defence,
with the organisation here in England, and in the matter of exchange ^51'' ^- ^-
of olEccrs, and of bringing about a better understanding between
officers and military affairs in the different Dominions and the cen-
tral organisation here in the British Islands.
Mr. DEAKIN : My Lord, and Mr. Haldane, it is true that I have
not seen one of the papers laid before us this morning, but have no
doubt that has not been due to any omission on the part of your
officers. Owing to the circumstances imder which we are assembled,
I have already had occasion to mention casually that on arrival we
were overwhelmed with a mass of printed information, the value and
extent of which I have already acknowledged, but which, under the
circumstances of pressure which prevail, are really, though in our
possession, beyond our reach; so much so, that, occupied as one has
been with the question immediately preceding this. I was not even
aware of the existence of these valuable papers. The mere glance I
have been able to give to them discovers that they are indeed most
useful possessions of this Conference. These will take a high place, I
believe, among the sources of knowledge which, after this Confer-
ence, will be placed at the disposal of the piiblic of this country, and
particularly before the public of our own countries, where I am sure
the study of these papers will be of the greatest value to us all.
Then we have been indebted to the masterly and luminous exposition
of the principles of military defence, which we have had the privilege
of hearing from the Right Honourable the Secretary for War. I
trust that my colleagues on the Conference will not shudder if I
venture to suggest that the sooner that statement gets in full to the
public of the Empire the better. Unless there be some reason, not
apparent to me, I do not know why it should not at once appear and
be communicated to all who are interested in it. That, again, will
be a storehouse to which we can refer for the elucidation of many
matters. And for my own part, I wish that it would reach every
citizen of all our dominions.
It is not necessary, especially after the inquiries and criticisms
of our friend the Minister of Defence for the Dominion of Canada,
to dwell upon the various points on which it can be suggested that the
propositions submitted to us to-day might impinge upon the deter-
minations of the Governments and Legislatures of the Dominions
here represented. For my own part I feel no anxiety on that score,
because the address which you delivered. Sir, displayed at every point
a most distinct appreciation of our susceptibility. You made it per-
fectly clear that what is laid before us comes in the way of counsel,
expert advice, well-matured advice, backed up by knowledge, but
simply advice, which it would be well for all our Parliaments to take
into consideration. That broad general principle having been
established I do not propose to dwell upon it in detail. So far as I
follow it, that is not necessary. In particulars, we have the advantage
of the comments of the ^Minister for the Department of Defence of
the Dominion of Canada, who is necessarily much more in intimate
relation with this matter than either my colleague or myself. We are
associated with departments nf peace and not of war, and the know-
104
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakin.}
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. ledge that we enjoy is that which is general to all members of the
^^\m Cabinet. Still, I have been sufficiently informed by my colleagues
through their advisers to be able to appreciate the fact that you have
covered the whole ground upon this question. Besides that you have
touched upon some matters which it is our desire to have specially
considered. So far as I am able to judge, the proposition for the
future use of the General Statf is one of as much importance as it is
of obvious magnitude. The General Staff is supposed to be the brain
of the Army. Any proposition which would extend its activities cr
permit us to share them, would be heartily welcomed in the Common-
wealth. A General Staff, such as we possess, naturally occupies itself
with those problems which are peculiar to Australia and its very
special situation. At the same time we quite realise that any situa-
tion, however special, requires to be dealt with in the light of certain
general principle?, and particularly of the latest developments of mar-
tial methods and organisation, and consequently I anticipate nothing
but great advantage to us from any association with the General
Staff. That will arise in a variety of ways under other proposals
which have been brought forward. In the list of subjects laid before
us the General Staff is properly put first, and really the particular
questions afterwards suggested, are, many of them, to be dealt with,
if not by the General Staff, at all events in the light of its studies.
Passing then to them, we find the first matter submitted is our adop-
tion of similar armaments, and that is, I think, fully recognisable
even by a layman as one of the essentials of effective imperial do-
fence. We say yes to that proposal, so far as it can be carried out,
without the slightest hesitation.
Next, apparently a little out of its logical order, comes the proposal
for an interchange of units, which in our case appears almost imprac-
ticable. The great distance which separates us not only from this
country but from any other dominion in which such an exchangv'
would be proposed, is one obvious obstacle, but a greater obstacle is
that our force of permanent men is relatively small; it consists of
well-trained experts whom we should be loth to part with, and a unit
in that sense we could hardly spare even if its position was endea-
voured to be taken by an equally competent unit abroad. We have no
possible objection to urge to this proposition except in our own case
the question of its practicability, that is as to the unit. As to the
interchange of officers, I am specially asked by my colleague the
!^[^nister of Defence of the Commonwealth to press for an extension
of that principle. We at present enjoy the privilege of exchanging
with Canada and with India and with yourselves, single officers,
sending to you and you sending to \is. We find that in every way a
useful practice, but wo desire to carry it out on a larger scale, that
is larger for us because ours must be on a small scale as I need not
remind you. The proposal which you have made with reference to
the exchange of officers representing our General Staff and those of
the General Staff of this country, exactly fits in with another request
which we intended to prefer. This was that officers of higher stand-
ing than those which have hitherto been exchanged should be ex-
ohanged. It has been pressed upon me by my colleague that, if possi-
ble, these nffic<>rs should not simply be attached to other men in this
country of the same rank who are doing the work. Wo wish, if pos-
sible, that OUT men should be put tn do the work; they may fail or
they niny do it imperfectly an<l that will have to be provided against,
but wc believe that without the actual pressure of active responsibility
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 190y
105
'J-
20th April,
1907.
Military-
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
upon them you will not test their capacity and they will not learn Fourth Da
the limits of their own knowledge. In the matter of interchange, I
think you will find the most cordial approbation of your proposition
from the Commonwealth and its Defence Department.
There is a question to which you have not referred, a minor ques-
tion, but which arises in that connection with regard to the relative
rank of oiBcers in the forces of the Outer Empire and the forces of
the Inner Empire. On this we hope to have the advantage of your
counsel. As to the establishment of military schools, in that respect
as in others, we are envious of the advance of our friends in Canada,
and recognise that the course they have taken is one dictated by sound
policy and experience. Our own difficulty is that the establishment of
a true military college implies a minimum number of regular stu-
dents year by year, whom at present we hardly see our way to obtain,
because of the want of adequate opportunities for such a number
afterwards within our own forces. We appreciate the high class
training which is obtainable in this country. It is more up-to-date
than we could expect to be, but at the same time our circumstances
are special. Take first of all the task of self-defence which is touched
upon in that very valuable memorandum. The defence of Australia
means operations at such distances relatively to those of the
United Kingdom, such enormous distances among a population, ex-
cept upon the coast, so sparse, with difficulties of transport, transit
ancl concentration, all of them so absolutely altered by scale and cir-
cumstance from those of this country that, for the purposes of our
own operations within the Commonwealth, the training of your col-
leges would require to be supplemented by practical training of our
own. That raises particular issues upon which it would not be pro-
per to detain you now, hut it is perhaps as well to mention some of
them. The need of adaptation is especially manifest in a democratic
country such as ours, in which the officers are chosen from all classes,
in which eighty-nine one-hundredths of them, like ninety-nine one-
hundredths of our citizen forces, are composed of men who earn their
own livelihoods by other callings. They devote their spare hours to
defence purposes, and that earnestly, as well as most generously,
becoming more effective in fact than they might appear to be, .iudg-
ing them merely by the tests of military parades. In Australia we
have been rather siibjeet to mockery because we have followed so
closely some methods of the Imperial forces. As fast as they Ger-
manised we Germanised, until some military experts have criticised
us for failing to adapt our drill and operations to the country in
which our men will require to act. dwelling too much upon getting
them upon parade in exact line, at the exact angle, with the proper
cap and belt. I admit that probably we are open to some of these
criticisms, but are beginning to realise that there must be a greater
amount of adaptation to our particular circumstances.
The question of military education generally is serious. We see
our way to what those who advise us on these matters tell us is a
sufficient military training for the men, with little alteration in our
present system, mainly because none of our men are pressed men, all
are volunteers, who join because they have an enthusiasm for the
work. The consequence is that many of our commanders, men of
experience, tell us that they find with our men a rapidity of progress,
a readiness to submit to discipline and a promptness in acquiring
technical knowledge which they are not accustomed to find elsewhere.
That is because every man takes a pride in his task and throws him-
106
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Fourth Dav.
20th April".
1907.
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakin.j
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
self into it, because it is his chosen pursuit in addition to his ordinary
labours. But while we feel hopeful about our men, we see that our
weakness lies in the officering of such men. We recognize what you
have wisely said that the most essential need of the Army now-a-days
is of the up-to-date, intelligent, self-dependent military officer with a
capable knowledge of his business and yet not a slave to the rules
and theories of the study. Any advice upon that head we shall be
most willing and ready to hear, because we recognise that this is
the direction in which we most need to improve.
The other point upon which vSir Frederick Borden with whom we
quite sympathise dwelt, is the wisdom of our making provision to
supply our own needs in times of emergency. I am happy to find,
from my hurried glance, that the paper headed " Patterns and Pro-
vision of Equipment and Stores for Colonial forces," states in para-
graph 6 that the Quartermaster-General and the Master General of
the Ordnance recommend that : " It is most desirable that the area
" of supply of the warlike stores under reference should be as wide
" as possible, and, therefore, the Colonial Governments should be
" urged to arrange for local manufacture and provision rather than
"to rely on the resources of the United Kingdom."
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : I had overlooked that, sir.
Mr. DEAKIN: That recommendation exactly supplies what Sir
l-'rederick Borden was desirous of securing, and also supplies what we
feel in our remote position to be still moi-e urgent. Our friends, Sir
Wilfrid and Sir Frederick, in contrast with us, reside in the centre
of modern civilisation with highly equipped nations all round them ;
by rapid communication they are kept in a few days in touch with
all. Our position at the other side of the globe, surrounded by alien
races to whom we cannot look for aid or assistance in this matter, or
indeed in any other, and far from any sources of suppl.v of arms and
material of war is very different, and we feel its urgency. We have
an ammunition factory already in Melbourne, but although that
meets our demand for small arms ammunition, we do not obtain a
satisfactory cordite supply. We have now under review, and intend
to propose to our Parliament, such an extension of our local produc-
tion as shall enable \is to cope with future demands some years ahead.
We have an ammunition reserve, but in addition propose to cope with
our demand by factories of our own. I propose at an early date to
ask your colleague, the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether it will
not be possible for ns, with advantage to the Admiralty, and with
advantage to ourselves, to enlarge any ammunition factories which
we may be able to establish so as to afford the Admiralty some of
the munitions it will need in time of war. Needless to say, if we are
cut off from sources of supply the ships of the squadron in those
seas are cut off also. If they are employing their aninuinition. as it
is to be hoped they would be most effectively on any liostile ships
with which they have to deal, the question of re-supplying their
stores, witho\it n visit to a very remote base, woidd of course be a
very considerable matter for them. It would be an important matter
for U3 if we can lease or establish a factory on such a scale that its
output in any given year may be sufficiently large to make us inde-
pendent of any of the reasonable requirements of war. That is to
say, our factories to be reliable must be of a certain power. We can
have a factory for ourselves, but it must be on such a scale that in
time of war its complete output might prove utterly insufficient.
COLONIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907 107
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
If, however, we are able to supply your naval requirements, or Fourth Day.
some of them, at your own rates, that is to say, the rates you would ^''"ioj^^'^' '
otherwise pay, making a fair allowance for any diiferences, that would L
be of great advantage to us. We do not want to make any business Military
profit out of it, but we desire to have a factory always at work and iJetence.
on such a scale that when the time of war arrived it might readily ni^fn )
be enlarged to meet even war necessities.
As regards the arms. Sir Frederick Borden has anticipated all that
it is necessary to say. We have been driven to do business with
private suppliers simply because the War Office could not supply us.
Whenever we wanted arms the War Office wanted them most, and
they had them first.
Mr. HALDANE: I think that was during the war, Mr. Deakin.
I may say that just now we shall be only too glad to execute orders for
any number.
Mr. DEAKTN : Exactly, you are always ready to execute orders
when neither of us is under pressure. That is what has driven us
outside. We know the value of the War Office criticism, but we also
know that the War Office looks after itself before it looks after us,
and when it is eager for arms or ammunition we have to wait. Any
arrangement which can overcome that and put us on a basis that for
any reasonable demand we should be entitled to a certain proportion
of your output of anything we do not make for ourselves, would be a
great improvement. Just as you wish to know in advance what
support you may expect from each part of the Empire, each part of
the Empire is entitled to know what support in the way of arms and
material it is entitled to expect from you in emergency.
Mr. HALDANE: I think we can do business on that basis.
Mr. DEAKIN : I hope so. I may say we do not take a narrow
view of our military obligations or their development. The move-
ment the public with us are taking to most kindly, and which has
most promise in connection with our military strength, is the Cadet
movement. We hope to have at least 30,000 cadets next year imder
training without counting those who have already passed through,
and my colleague, who is sanguine, thinks we shall have 40.000 or 50,-
000 in a short time. They get a fair training with handy little rifles
amongst others the Westley-Richards, which is in favour. We had
tenders a little while ago in which a Belgian firm who make a spec-
ialty of such rifles offered to supply these Westley-Richards at about
37s. or S~s. 6c/., whereas from Great Britain the.v wanted 39s. We
took the 39s. weapon without a moment's hesitation. That was to
help British industry to turn out British weapons for British men.
Although we have no complaint against Belgian workmen, it is not
our business to encourage their factories when we can help factories
for the manufacture of small arms here. We do not take a biassed
view, but where we cannot supply our own needs we do desire to sup-
port the factories of this country.
The training of cadets, of course, is a matter which wiU tell more
in the future than in the present. We are passing them through now
at the rate of some 16,000 a year. In our largest State, New South
Wales, my colleague reminds me that they have been passing them
through at that rate for a nxmiher of years. The consequence is that
in a rudimentary knowledge of drill, getting them well set up, used
to simple formations, and handling the rifle, they do very well. Rifle-
shooting is rather a national pastime with us; it is favoured every-
108 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. where. I have had made, and shall be glad to hand in three maps,
-"*'' ^P''"!' one showing that in every quarter of Australia there are rifle-clubs
L in active practice — from the extreme north at Thursday Island to
Military the extreme south, Hobart in Tasmania, and to the extreme west in
^^m"^*^^' Perth. Wherever there is a settlement there is a rifle-club or there is
Deakiu ) going to be a rifle-club, and although we have not yet associated that
movement with formal drill the desire to have rifle practice and be a
good shot being strong, we have great anticipations. I will show you
on another map that wherever there is a settlement, and almost wher-
ever there is a school, there is to be a cadet corps in active operation.
There is some kind of drill in every school. I will show you another
map which exhibits every detachment of our forces, whether it is
Artillery, Mounted Infantry, Infantry, or permanent forces, in dif-
ferent colours. You have only to look at the map to see in an instant
what and where our forces are.
The question of patterns, the question of purchase of material,
and the Military College having been touched on, the only matter
remaining is a permissible parallel between the General Staff and
the Committee of Imperial Defence in respect of which a Memor-
andum is laid before us. I am happy to know that you have complied
with the request we have made, to be somewhat more practically
associated with this Committee, just as we desire a practical associa-
tion with the General Staff. I find that yo\ir Imperial Defence Com-
mittee bears an analogy to this Conference itself, except that we are
represented politically. Both are devised to facilitate common dis-
cussion and agreement, to advise in the case of questions of local or
general concern which may be referred to us, and to bring experts
into direct touch. Both are purely consultative bodies having no
executive powers or administrative functions when national and col-
onial questions are discussed. We have already enjoyed the benefit
of the advice of this Committee, generously given when it was asked
by our Government in 1905. and we have now gained the further
advantage of permission to send a representative to it when any ques-
tions we submit are to be dealt with. I would like to add that as this
is the Committee of Imperial Defence, covering both military and
naval affairs, we shall hope to be represented there occasionally.
Although it is easy to put a question, it is not always easy to put it
without undue prolixity in indicating precisely where our difiiculties
lie. We obtained a valuable report from the Committee of Imperial
Defence, but it did not answer a number of queries in which we were
specially interested, and which we hoped to receive advice upon. Now
that we have permission to have a representative enabled to attend
that consultative committee, we shall be able to point out just where
our difficulties lie. Your reply would not be as the last was, most
admirably drafted from n general point of view, without meeting
some of our particular difficulties nt that time.
In conclusion lot me once more say that your broad-minded view
of Imperial possibilities in the way of military defence, and the way
they can be utilised, i-; not only of the highest interest to us, but I
can assure you will be practically reviewed in relation to our own
circumstances with the warmest possible desire to co-operate with your
office in the great projects yon have clearly otitlined to-day.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: My Lord, the value of the meeting of the
Ministers from the sell-governing countries will be enormously en-
hanced ns the outcome of the discussion and the information which
COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 109
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
has been afforded to us to-day in regard to the defence of the Em- Fourth Day.
pire. I wish to say on behalf of the country I represent that I look jqj^^"^
upon it as of very great importance to hare heard the views of His 1
Majesty's Ministers of the United Kingdom upon this great question Military
of the defence of the Empire. I have read some of the papers — not ® y "*^* k
all of them — very closely, that have been furnished by your staff WardT
and I endorse the sentiment already expressed that they will be most
valuable, although some of them are of a confidential character, for
the information of Parliament as well as for the guidance of the
administration that it is my privilege to represent here.
I would like to say I clearly understood from the observations of
Mr. Haldane that what is suggested by him is in the direction of sug-
gestion and not anything binding on the part of the Colonies. What
they may do will be of their voluntary act or of their voluntary co-
operation and assistance in the direction of assisting and bringing
about a general scheme that would be of advantage to the Empire as
a whole. I am not going to take up the time of the Conference at
any great length. I want to say that the aspect upon one point put
forward by the Minister of Defence of the Dominion of Canada, as
to the powers of his country to incur responsibilities outside of his
own Dominion, apply with equal force to New Zealand. We are
responsible for the expenditure incurred for the protection of our own
country. Our people in the past have shown their readiness and will
do so upon every occasion in the future, I have no doubt whatever,
to adopt flexible conditions to meet extraordinary circumstances
should they arise. Upon some of the points referred to as to the
obligations upon the Colony, my colleagues in New Zealand, and
Parliament itself, will, I am confident, ratify and would undertake
them in order to bring about a stronger and a better system for the
general defence of the Empire. I do not purpose to go into details
regarding the several suggestions. Reading them as a layman,
though holding the position of Minister of Defence of our country
the proposals in the Memorandum signed by General Lyttelton are
very valuable, and, generally speaking, those strategrical conditions
from the military point of view, ovlt Colony would, I think, endorse.
It is made very clear that it is the opinion of the Gleneral Staff, not
the opinion of the Government of the United Kingdom. So far as
trying to bring about uniformity from the expert point of view. I
think the Council of Defence which we have established in New
Zealand upon lines similar to that of the Old World, would be very
glad to co-operate with the military advisers of the British Govern-
ment, who have in this Memorandum given most valuable sugges-
tions. The possibility of assimilating War organisation throughout
the Empire is a high and worthy ideal to aim for. It is of the first
consequence to Britain itself to have a thorough organisation within
its own borders as it is throughout the Empire for the purpose of
maintaining its own position and that of its outlying possessions.
We would be only too glad to co-operate in order to bring about that
assimilation of organisation throughout the Empire.
In reference to the desirability of having uniformity in patterns
and provision of equipment and stores for Colonial forces, generally
speaking I concur with the reservation which is made in No. 6, which
I think Mt. Deakin quoted from that Memorandum, where it is sug-
gested that war stores and materials should be obtained if possible
through the War Office so long as it is recognised that we have the
right, if we go for the same quality of ammunition, to make it in our
110 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. own country — with that reservation I cordially endorse the sentiments
20th April, expressed in respect to that. We already make a large quantity of
ammunition in our own Colony for our own use, and we are likely to
Military extend it. The suggestion contained in some of these Memoranda as
Defeuce. ^.^ ^^^j. ^gj^g ^.jjg game class of arms and ammunition is highly im-
*^ Wa "dT Portant in view of any contingency that may arise in the future cal-
ling for common action outside of our own country, when we may
require in an emergency to send our own men and our own arms to
another coimtry for the purpose of common defence to fight an enemy.
I would like very much to say that upon this question of the inter-
change of units and officers I hold a most pronounced opinion. Un-
like my friend Mr. Deakin, I think that New Zealand could arrange
for interchange of units. We have the Volunteer system there; we
have for years had all the ordinary organisations referred to by Mr.
Deakin in the matter of cadets and rifle ranges, and these are being
excluded for private citizens all over the country. In connection
with our Volunteer system, the only trouble we have is to keep the
numbers down. All over our country we have the very best class of
men offering to join our Volunteer corps. They are encouraged by
men in every responsible position you can name in the country. Our
captains of industry, our kings of commerce, the members of the
Administration of the day, and the officials connected with our im-
portant State departments and the rank and file of these departments
realise that it is upon the popular basis of a Volunteer system that
we have to provide for the internal defence of our country, and in
the event of trouble arising they are our source of internal defence,
and we encourage it in every possible way. Now I have no doubt in
my own mind that if there were — perhaps not in an extensive way in
the first instance — an interchange of units of volunteers from both
parts of the world, I do not say with the militia, because we have no
militia in New Zealand, but if there was an interchange of units, as
between the Old Country and ourselves, I have no hesitation whatever
in saying that we would be able to get from time to time a body of
men, not from any one particular part of the colony, but selected
from various portions of it, with the instruction and the information
upon detail so essential in times of trouble so that they may come
back, and by permeating the country, so to speak, be able to inspire
and infuse into others something of the enthusiasm you are trying
to inspire in the Old World, and it brings about a feeling that the
interchange of individuals amongst the rank and file tends certainly
to a desire for unity and a desire for co-operation, and that that is
not to be confined to the officers only.
Mr. DEAKIN: What about their livelihoods?
Sir JOSEPH W.\RD : I was just going to touch upon that. For
my part I should be prepared, and I am quite satisfied my colleagues
would, to see that a Volunteer company coming to the Old Country
for the purpose of the interchange of practice and ideas, should be
paid reasonably to enable them to do so, and the same system might
with advantage apply in England itself. We need not aim at doing
it on an extensive scale, but my belief is that it would be worth try-
ing with the idea of bringing about that mutuality expressed in those
important papers. The desire voiced by the Secretary of State for
War to-day to try to have co-operation for the purpose of defending
the Empire in times of trouble or stress is well worth working for.
Mr. DEAKIN : That does not put them back in their old employ-
COLONIAL COXFERENGE, 1907
HI
Military-
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
mcnts ; you pay them while they are away, but when they come home Fourth Day.
their places are taken by other men unless you make some extraor- "''*'\q^-,'"^"''
dinary provision for it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is so, but the same thing applied
during the time of the South African War in all our countries ; we
had many men giving up their ordinary occupations and going out
to fight.
Mr. DEAKIN: Many of them suffered for it afterwards, too.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : No doubt that is one of the difficulties that
unfortunately are inseparable from the troubles of war, and I do not
quite know how you could, in the event of Volunteers occupying a
position of complete dependence in the country who would desire to
come here for instruction, arrange for the continuance of their ap-
pointments in their own country until they returned. That to a large
extent would have to be a matter for them to consider.
Regarding the interchange of officers, the suggestion of Mr. Hal-
dane upon that is a most valuable one. We are doing it now to some
extent at the invitation of the War Office; we are sending some of
our officers now from time to time here for purposes of instruction,
but if they were to provide now, which I imderstood to be referred to
by Mr. Haldane, for allowing responsible officers from here to go out
paid by the Imperial Authorities to take the place of the responsible
officers we have in our country paid by us, so that in the interval the
void created by the despatch of our officers to the old country would
be filled by the men from here, both countries paying their officers,
that is, that we paid ours and you paid yours, the purposes of infor-
mation and instruction of officers and, in my opinion, it would be
most valuable indeed. Up to now we have really had nothing of the
kind. It seems to me that if we could have Imperial officers coming
out to our country and our Colonial officers coming home here, each
temporarily filling the position vacated by the other, it would, with-
out additional cost to our respective Administrations, enable the
changing of these officers to be going on for all time I should say,
until that splendid scheme which is in all our minds of a commoq
system of organisation with a view to having, in time of trouble,
uniformit.v in all respects and consequently greater efficiency. A
highly educated Empire staff from all standpoints is desirable. I
should most heartily support that from the standpoint of New Zea-
land.
This Resolution which I have read carefully, while not expressing
anything binding upon our respective countries, and which may re-
quire to be altered in some respects, would be a good thing for us,
as the representatives of our respective countries, to affirm. It would
show at all events that this Conference of responsible men meeting
here " without " (as the Resolution itself expresses it) " wishing to
" commit to immediate action any of the Governments represented,
" recognises and affirms the need of developing throughout the Em-
" pire the conception of a General Staff recruited from the forces of
" the Empire as a whole." I am quite prepared to support a resolu-
tion of that kind. It does not take away from us the all-necessitous
requirements of our own staffs being responsible to their own Govern-
ments, of the control of our own staffs. It does express a desire that
we should recognise and affirm the need throughout the Empire of
having a General Staff recruited from the forces of the Empire as a
whole, and for my part I most cordially support that. Sir Frederick
112
COLOyiAL COSFEREyCE, 1907
Military
Defence.
<Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. Borden has well expressed upon some material points the views that
\gf-^" his Government entertain in the matter of protecting their position.
Naturally we all require to do the same, and in conclusion I wish to
say I am exceedingly glad of the opportunity of having heard from
the Secretary of State for War his views upon this matter, and I
hope the publicity Mr. Deakin has suggested can be done. I do not
know whether we are to regard matters relating to defence as con-
fidential. Some of the matters vre are dealing with necessarily
should be confidential, but if upon such points as we are discussing
here we could give out (I am referring to anj-thing I am saying my-
self, of course) such portions or all of the speech of the Secretary of
State for War, educationally it would be valuable to the people in
our country, certainly. The expression of opinion of a gentleman
occupying a position of such grave responsibility as the Secretary of
State for War will be of intense interest to the public of the self-
governing Colonies. If the principle of what is given out in a debate
in the House of Commons could be applied in this instance it would
do good, but how far the confidential can be removed from the dis-
cussion which has taken place I am not quite prepared at the moment
to say. I am animated, as I am sure every one of us is here, with the
desire to see the system made as valuable as possible for the Old and
the New Worlds, and without giving away any portion of it to those
who want to know what we are doing, other than is absolutely neces-
sary.
I wish again to express my personal appreciation of the informa-
tion furnished to us and of the value of this contained in the official
reports submitted. I believe a great deal of good will come, and the
great organisation which the responsible authorities here are trying
to bring about will be hastened forward. Speaking on behalf of my
country, I am only too glad to assist my colleagues representing the
other countries in improving as far as we possibly can.
Dr. JAMESON: I would ask my colleague, Dr. Smartt, who is
specially qualified to deal with this subject, to speak upon it on behalf
of our Government.
Dr. SMARTT: Lord Elgin, I am not desirous of unnecessarily
taking up the time of the Conference, but while not, as yet, having
had an opportunity of reading the Defence papers — which onl.y came
into my hands this morning^I should like to express to Mr. Haldane
how much we arc indebted to him for the able and lucid manner in
which he has brought this matter forward, because it makes us realise
that the Secretary of State for War and his technical and scientific
advisers are prepared to profit from the experience of the past, and
to do the best they possibly can to allow us to meet any contingencies
that may possibly arise to the detriment of the Empire in the future.
So far as the Cape is concornod, T think we thoroughly endorse
everything that has been said by the Secretary of State for War with
regard to the General Staff and the interchange of officers. As the
Secretary of State knows, some short time ago a conference was held
between the various Colonies in South Africa, under the presidency
of the TTigh Commissioner. There the obligations which rest upon
the individual Colonies, not nlono to provide for their own local de-
fence, but also to provide for the defence of the whole of South
Africa, were fully recognised. A tentative arrangement was come
to — naturally subject to the approval of the various Parliaments —
whereby certain of our forces would be interchangeable in the event
COLONIAL COXI'EREXCE, 1907 113
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of any local emergency; and the principle was also recognised, and Fourth Day.
will naturally have to be accepted, or otherwise, by the various South 1907^'^
African Governments. A point upon which I am extremely anxious
to hear the opinion of my friend General Botha, is as to whether we ^'''t*'?
should not disband and re-enrol our permanent forces on the under- ,„
standing that they would be under obligations not alone to serve any- Smartt.)
where in South Africa, but, in an emergency — and with the consent
of the Governments concerned — anywhere the Empire might require.
I believe the feeling of the people of Cape Colony, and I hope the
feeling of the general population of South Africa, will be favourable
to such a proposition; and I think if that principle were accepted
by the other Colonies, it would be the first nucleus of a real Imperial
Army. So far as our permanent forces are concerned (I speak more
of the Cape Police and the C.M.R.) I am perfectly certain that prac-
tically all of them would be prepared to be re-enrolled upon that
basis, that is to say that they would be liable to be called upon for
service in any part of the. world where they might be required.
So far as our Naval defences are concerned, we have been only too
anxious to see if we could do anything to improve those defences,
and I trust that the result of the consultation we will have the oppor-
tunity of having with the Admiralty before we return to the Cape
will be that, on behalf of South Africa, and certainly on behalf of ^
the two maritime Colonies of South Africa, some arrangement will
be come to with the Admiralty whereby we will, on the same basis as
T have suggested with regard to the Military forces, enrol, under an
Act of Parliament, a force of Royal Naval Volunteer Reserves who
will bind themselves in time of war not only to serve within territor-
ial waters, but to serve in any part of the world in which the British
Admiralty may require their services; because I feet strongly that
it is not the contributions which we give to the Imperial Government
(which, after all, are only a drop in the ocean) that are important,
but that the great contribution we should give is personnel trained as
efficiently as possible in order to make up the waste of war should
any great difficulty arise.
It is hardly necessary for me to say any more, because I think
this Resolution will be accepted by the Conference. I only wish the
Resolution was worded a little more strongly, and — perhaps the Sec-
retary of State for War may think it over — that it contained an ex-
pression of the opinion of this Conference that a certain portion of
the forces of all the Colonies or Dominions beyond the Seas should
be enrolled upon the basis that, with the consent of their Govern-
ments, their services would be available wherever required.
I may also, perhaps, Lord Elgin, as it is of such great importance,
accentuate what has been so ably said by ilr. Deakin and by Sir
Joseph Ward, that I do not think there is anything in the statement
of the Secretary of State for War which should necessarily be with-
held from publication. So far as the Empire is concerned, I am sure
it will do a great deal of good ; and I do not think, so far as foreign
nations are concerned, that anybody can take exception to it. If they
did take any exception to it, it would only be to assure them that, so
far as the British Empire is concerned, it is determined to maintain
and uphold its own interests in every part of the world, and that is not
a position which any foreign nation could possibly take exception to.
I therefore trust that the Secretary of State for War will consent to
make public this most valuable statement which he has been good
enough to lay before the Conference.
58—8
114 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. Mr. F. R. MOOE : ily Lord, I have to thank the Government for
^'^\^y'^^^' having put before us so clearly and lucidly the views that are held
1 here with regard to some organised system for common Imperial
Military defence, and the resolution that is placed before us is one which I
e ence. ^^^ ^.^^ ^^ sincere support to. I agree with the views that have been
SmarU.) expressed by the previous speakers that, by having a common system,
such as is indicated here, on these broad principles, that is one that
can only lead to good.
The interchange of Staff oiEcers, as indicated here, is one that
will undoubtedly be of great advantage to the Colonies in the direc-
tion of keeping the Colonies duly informed and educated up to the
latest standards of military thought and science. I feel sure that, as
regards South Africa, our final military organisation with regard to
that very important possession is still in the lap of the gods, inas-
much as we are not yet a federated country, but we all do realise
that we have a common duty first in providing for an efficient local
defence, and eventually in giving as much assistance as we possibly
can to the Empire; but we do feel. Sir, that to carry this out effici-
ently it can only come about when we have obtained what we all hope
will be in the near future — a Federated Sub-Continent.
We feel. Sir, that in that part of the world we are especially
^ bound to take the gravest notice of our military efficiency. We not
only hold a most unique position as regards the Empire in the event
of a general war, being in such a very important position with regard
to all the important trade routes, which is the imperial aspect, but we
also have a very unique position as regards our local environments
with respect to the large native population, that it is o\ir duty and
our burden to govern and control. Having all these heavy obliga-
tions upon us we feel that it is only by a common purpose that we
can carry out efficiently the conditions of the defence that will be
satisfactory to ourselves in the first instance, and also, I trust, to the
Home Government when our organisations are complete.
Speaking for the Colony I represent, I believe there. Sir, we are
more or less in advance of any of the other British Colonies in the
Empire. We have there a compulsory system as regards our ^Militia,
and during the late disturbance with our natives we did find that this
system of ours was fairly effective. There is no doubt it will have
to he amended in some directions, but on the whole. Sir, it has worked
■well. We have also a very complete cadet system there in connection
with all our Public Schools. All our young people have to go through
a military training at these schools, not only in drilling and more or
less discipline. b>it by annual encampments and efficiency in rifle
practice. This movement is very popular among the young people,
and to my mind is in the direction of the solution of that recognition
by every citizen that in the hoiir of peril, whether it be in the Colonies
or whether it be in the United Kingdom, every man should do his
duty witli regard to the defence of his country. We are traininjr
these young people and T think the fact of their being trained at this
early age imbues them with a feeling that they do owe a duty to their
country and also to the Empire.
Sir. T thank you for the broad lines on which you have juit this
very great qiiestion before us, and T feel that your views will have
great weight with the people T represent, and T believe that your
views will have great effect on th<' Conference we are now atteti<linjj
in the dirci-tidu of prouioting unity with regard to our common
defence.
COLONIAL COXFERENOE, 1907 116
SESCIONAL PAPER No. 58
General BOTHA : I should just like to say a few words aud to Fourth Day.
thank tlie Minister for War very heartily for the valuable informa- 20th April,
tiou he has imparted to us. The position that we have got to take
up to-day and to discuss is that of organisation of defence. If the Military
Empire is to expand still more, this is one of the important factors Defence,
in its expansion. We, in the Transvaal, are to-day in a difficult posi- 'Mj- I"- E-
tion. We are sitting there entirely without any means of defence, °°'
and if. for instance, the British Government were to remove the
troops from there, our position would be hazardous. I have discussed
the matter with Dr. Jameson and Mr. Moor, and my idea is that, if
as yet we cannot bring about a general federation of South Africa
we should at any rate attempt to federate on this question of defence.
If we succeed in doing this. I think it will be a very effective way of
aiding the Empire. I am not quite satislied as to the exact binding
effect of this proposed Resolution, and I should like to consider it
further. What would be its exact effect is not quite clear to me.
That is all I have to say.
Mr. IIALDAXE : I do not know really that I need take up the
time of the Conference by replying, except in a few sentences. It is
to me personally deeply gratifying to find that to so very great an
extent we have all been thinking upon the same lines. It seems to
me that this Conference is very much of a common mind about the
broad principles which underlie this matter, but there are. of course,
questions of difficulty. Dr. Smartt has raised a very important point
as to whether it would not be possible for each of the self-governing
Dominions of the Crown to raise a special contingent as I may call
it. for service in the defence of the Empire. That wo\dd practically
put that contingent into the first line, leaving the second line to be
organised out of all the local forces. Well, of course one sees a great
many problems that may arise at once as regards that, although it
would be a most valuable thing if it could be carried out. One sees
the difficulty — to whom would that force be responsible? Who would
have power to call it out on the outbreak of war, and so on? Would
it be a volunteer force or would it be a force which undertook the
same kind of responsibility as the first line itself, namely to obey the
directions of the Commander-in-Chief, whoever he may be, who was
nominated to the supreme command of the war? Those are not
insuperable difficulties by any means and I merely mention them to
show that that is probably a point upon which this Conference can-
not come to a detailed or definite conclusion without going into mat-
ters.
Dr. SMARTT : If I may say so. Mr. Haldane. I had considered
that point and that was not my difficulty. The difficulty was that,
say. in Cape Colony, we have our Volunteer Forces and what we call
our Cape Police and Cape Mounted Rifles. Under existing condi-
tions, none of these forces can be called upon to serve outside cer-
tain areas. My idea was that certain of those forces should be dis-
banded (or whatever is the proper military term) and re-enrolled, so
that the men could, with the consent and control of the country, be
sent to any part of the world if circumstances required them, be-
cause, under existing conditions, if the people of the Colony desired
that the services of these permanent Cape forces should be utilised,
without special enrolment they covild not be sent away without their
special consent — which, though it would be readily given, would
naturally cause delay. It was exactly the problem to which I think
58— 8i
116
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourth Day. the Canadian Minister for War referred with regard to the contin-
IW^' cents they sent to South Africa; viz.: — that they had really to get
the consent of the men; there was no possibility of sending them,
even with the desire of the Government and Parliament, owing to the
character of their enrolment.
Militarv
Defence.
(Dr.
Smartt.i
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We are entirely against discrimination
of that kind in New Zealand. We would not favour that at all. I
should like to say that, Mr. Haldane.
Dr. SMARTT : Do you mean under any circumstances ?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Tes, and for this reason— I would like to
make it clear from the Xew Zealand point of view — we want to have
our Volunteer system carried out under a complete organised defence
system in 2vew Zealand, without distinction of any kind for over-
sea purposes. We are against anything in the nature of a standing
army. We have now in existence our Volunteers many of whom are
actively engaged in helping to develop the country. We have a very
large reserve force of private individuals who are qualified to serve
anywhere, and we want to be in the position, in New Zealand, of
allowing it to be a voluntary offering from the Government and the
individual to fight over-sea when called upon for the Empire, and
we know we could get thousands of them, and if we were to attempt
to create a first line or company, whatever is suggested, to be always
ready for over-sea defence, I think you would create internal dfficul-
ties amongst the ordinary, or rather regular, forces who would will-
ingly and spontaneously go out and fight when the time arises. T
believe, with all due deference to my friend Dr. Smartt, that it is
far better to let the country as a whole realise, in the event of trouble
arising, that we can draw upon our volunteers for wherever we are
going to fight, not ear-marking them beforehand. A good system of
defence in our own country for use externally when the time arises
h the better course to follow. It would entail legislation in our
country if anything of the kind were proposed, and our people in
time of peace do not want to have paraded a permanent organisation
to go outside the country to fight. That is the sort of thing that
would deter them to some extent from general action when the time
arises. I do sincerely hope at all events that Mr. Haldano will not,
so far as New Zealand is concerned, expect us to go upon lines of
that kind.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : T would like to add a word. This
very question was brought up at the Conference five years ago, and
discussed thoroughly and disposed of, for that time at least. I, per-
haps, cannot put the matter better than I put it then. I will read what
I said then : " The suggestion which was made that there should be a
" special force known as the Imperial Force tor service abroad is one
" I cannot subscribe to. because I believe, in the first place, it would
"have a derogatory effect on the militia itself. T am quite content,
"from what I know of the militia of Canada that, to have a special
"force receiving special favours, speciallv nnined. specially drilled
"and trained, would have an unfavourable effect on the militia at
"large. I would propose as an alternntivo." and so on, and T con-
cluded:— "It seems to me that T do not think it is necessary that a
"set of men shall be labelled as being set apnrt for any particular ser-
" vice, but that our militia should he made absolutely effective, so that
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE. 1901
117
Military
Defence.
(Sir F. W.
Borden.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
'' when the inonu'ut arrives we can take part ami assist the Imperial Fourth Day
" Army by a voluntary enlistment." ''^\m'
Mr. IIALDANE : I am, at the moment, keenly conscious of the
difficulty which Sir .Joseph Ward and Sir Frederick Borden have
raised, because I have jiist had to face it in framing the scheme of
our own second line at homo, and perhaps I might read to the Con-
ference the clause in which I came to the conclusion that I had gone
to the utmost limit possible with the second line. It makes me think
that what Dr. Sniartt proposes is really in the nature of a special
contribution of the Colony to the first line of Defence, a most valu-
able thing, but it is outside the strict organisation of a second line
force which is mainly what we are discussing here.
Dr. JAMESON : On behalf of the Cape, may I say that, while I
quite agree with my colleague (in case there is any idea as to the
Cape wanting to press this), this is perhaps one of these advanced
ideas we have put forward alread.y; perhaps it is a little too early to
bring it forward, but no doubt it may grow and perhaps Dr. Smartt
is quite right to throw it out as a consideration to think of for the
next Conference on that basis.
Mr. HALDANE : It is one of these things which may well be-
long to a very immediate future — not far off — but I am now going
to read from the Bill which comes up before Parliament for the iinal
stage of the second reading debate on Tuesday. " Any part of the
Territorial Force " — which is the second line force, which corresponds
to the imperial second line we are discussing — the local forces all
round — " shall be liable to serve in any part of the " United
Kingdom, but no part of the Territorial Force shall be carried or
" ordered to go out of the United Kingdom. Now we have this by
way of proviso. " Provided that it shall be lawful for His Majesty,
" if he thinks fit to accept the offer of any body of men of the Terri-
" torial Force, signifying through their commanding officer, to sub-
" ject themselves to the liability (a) to serve in any place outside the
"United Kingdom; or (b) to be called out for actual military ser-
" vice for the purpose of defence in such places in the United King-
" dom as may be specified in their agreement, whether the Territorial
" Force is embodided or not," and it goes on to say if they make the
offer, and it is accepted, that offer measures their liability, and no-
body is to be compelled to make such an offer, except by his own
consent, with the matter carefully explained to him. That was the
utmost we felt we could go in the organisation of the second line,
and it is in effect the change which was made in our Militia Act to-
wards the end of the Peninsular War. We were driven to rely on
the militia towards the end of the Peninsular War, and the sub-
stance of this clause was introduced as a modification of our Militia
Act. However, I gather that you all in Canada, in Australia, and
in New Zealand, are very much in the same position with regard
to that. That is very much the measure of what we want to do, and
if .vou coTild get that amount of latitude that would enable yo\i to
organise your second line so that such voluntary offer could be pro-
vided for and accepted, I take it that it would be a step on. Sir
Frederick. I rather gather that you have some legislation you might
have to modify in some slight degree to meet that, but whether it is
so or not, that is a matter which, as we have said, can stand.
If the Conference is agreeable, as I think it is, to this resolution
118
COLOSIXL C'0\FERENCE, 1907
Fourth Dav
20th April,
1907.
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Haldane.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
. about the General Staff, I think it is highly desirable that we should
pass it ; there may be amendments upon it, 'of course, but I was going
to suggest this, that if we do pass it, I hope the thing will not stop
there. My office will be ready to take up the details of things and
although we say in the beginning, " That this Conference, without
wishing to commit to immediate action any of -the Governments re-
presented," I hope the opportunity may be taken to follow up all
these things we have discussed to-day. Sir Neville Lyttelton and
the rest of us will put aside all other engagements; we know you are
here and available only for about three weeks more and the most
immediate duty we could fuliil would be to meet and confer with
you and work these things out, so that I hope, if the substance of
this resolution is agreed to, we may be able to take some immediate
action in fixing in our minds the precise way to give effect to it and
the other things we have discussed to-day.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: Would it be possible, Mr. Hal-
dane, to modify this resolution — I have not thought of the form of
words, but in some way — by which we woidd agree to the idea of
establishing General Staffs in each of the Dominions beyond the
Seas, in each of our countries, and then go on as you put it so that
these staffs should be interchangeable with each other, because I
think it is not only desirable that there should be exchange between
the Central Staff and any one of the Colonies, but exchange between
the staffs of the different Colonies. I do not know whether that is
desirable, but I do not like to lose sight of the idea that the different
communities or dominions should have their own general-staffs.
CHAIRMAN: Might I suggest this? There is a general expres-
sion of opinion that it woidd be very desirable that the Secretary of
State's statement should be made public, and I understand from him
that there is no objection to that. In the statement, of course, is set
forth in full what Sir Frederick Borden has been asking for and
perhaps that would be the easiest way of doing it. There are one or
two almost verbal amendments I think that have been suggested to
me in the resolution itself, but otherwise it might stand. I think
perhaps that the Conference might express approval of the Secretary
of State's statement and then it might be recorded in the resolution
and published.
^[r. HALDANE: I think there is nothing in what I have said
to-day that has not been said several times, not only in speeches, btit
in papers that have been published and are in the possession not only
of the American General Staff, but I suspect of all General Staffs.
They are very well informed of each others' proceedings and there is
no secret in what we have discus.sed to-day; it is a fixing rather of
the ideas that have already been given expression to.
!Mr. DEAKTN : It seemed to me a digest of the discussions whidi
have 90 far proceeded in your Parliament and in yotir Press.
CHAIRMAN: You will revise it?
Mr. HALDANE : I will revise it, and I will take care that there
is no expression that can possibly be open to objection.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: The principle. I take it, is the
establishment of an Imperial General Staff.
Mr. HALDANE: That is it.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: We have no Imperial Army.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
U9
Military
Defence.
(Sir P. W.
Borden.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. HALDANL: No, you have an Army which serves for the Fourth Day.
defence of the Empire, and you have the Committee of Imperial " ,0;^'^' '
Defence. L
Sir FKEDEKIC'K EOKDEN: I think we are all agreed that this
should be done, but there may be some of our people, whom we
represent, who may be somewhat sensitive about being committed, as
they might think they were being committed, to something like an
obligation.
Mr. HALDANE: You observe the General Staff is a purely
advisory body, and indeed you have done it in Canada just now be-
cause you have a very distinguished General Staff officer, General
Lake, who is your own Staff officer, as any General Staff officer sent
under this scheme would be, — absolutely your own officer at your
own disposition.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: Precisely, but we have not said
much about it.
Mr. HALDANE: No, your deeds have been better than your
words. You have had General Lake for some time and have been
working it up.
Mr. DEAKIN: I have made a suggestion in the last line but
three which would perhaps meet your point. Sir Frederick ; instead
of reading: "without in the least interfering in questions con-
'■ neeted with command and administration shall be capable of advis-
" ing respective Governments," and so on, it should read: "without
" in the least interfering in questions connected with command and
" administration shall, at the request of the respective Governm°nts,
" advise as to the training and education,"
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is important. Will you give
me the words, ilr. Deakin ?
Mr. DEAKIN: After the word "shall" in the fourth line from
the bottom insert the words " at the request of " instead of " be
capable of advising," and it read.s on " the respective Governments
advise as to the " training, education, and war organization of the
" military forces of the Crown in every part of the Empire." That
shows what I think was the clear intention that this staff should
work upon the respective Governments ; it is the brain which is to
be called upon by any nerve at the extremity and responds there-
to.
Mr. HALDANE : The expert called in.
Mr. DEAKIN: Exactly, like the Committee of Imperial De-
fence; to make that clear I propose in the fourth line from the top
after the words " recognizes and affirms the need of developing " to
insert " for the tise of " instead of " throughout," and then omit the
words " the conception of."
Mr. HALDANE : " For the service of the Empire."
Jfr. DEAKIN : That is better — " for the service of the Empire a
General Staff recruited " and so on.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: I would say "for the service of
the various Dominions."
Mr. HALDANE : " For the service of the various Governments
of the Empire."
Dr. JAMESON: Why not the Empire by itself?
120
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1901
Fourth Day.
20th April,
1907.
Military
Defence.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Mr. DEAKIN: We make that plain in the last part.
!Mr. HALDANE : " For the service of the Empire."
Mr. F. E. MOOR : I think it would be better if instead of " that
this Conference without wishing to commit to immediate action " we-
*aid " that this Conference without committing any of the Govern-
" raents to immediate action."
Mr. HALDANE : Yes.
Mr. F. R. MOORE : I think it would be more decided and clear.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : In any case everything we do here has to-
be ratified by our Governments and Parliaments too.
CHAIRMAN: You cannot commit them.
Mr. HALDANE: I doubt very much whether these words are
necessary.
Dr. SMARTT: I do not think we need them in at all; you might
take out all the words after " Conference " down to the third line.
Mr. DEAKIN: I agree, but as they have been put in let it stand
as it is.
Sir WILFRID LATJEIER: I think it better to let them stand aa
they are.
CHAIRMAN: If we adopt the suggestion of using the statement
of the Secretary of State, ought we not to put that in some form into-
the Resolution, " That the Cenference welcomes and cordially ap-
" proves the exposition of general principles embodied in the state-
" ment of the Secretary for War. "
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am quite agreeable, it is part and parcel
of the motion, really.
Mr. DEAKIN: Will you put the whole Resolution, sir?
CHAIRMAN: Then the Resolution would run: "The Confer-
" ence welcomes and cordially approves the exposition of general
" principles embodied in the statement of the Secretary of State for
"War and resolves: That this Conference without wishing to com-
"mit to immediate action any of the Governments represented at it
" recognizes and affirms the need "
Mr. DEAKIN: Is "at it" necessary?
CHAIRMAN : No, I should think not — " recognises and affirms
" the need of developing a General Staff recruited from the forces
" of the Empire as a whole, which shall be a means of fostering the
" study of military science in the various branches, shall collect and
" disseminate to the various Governments military information and
" intelligence, and undertake the preparation of schemes of defence
" on a common principle and without in the least interfering in
" questions connected with command and administration, shall at the
" request of the respective Governments advise them as to the train-
" ing, education, and war organization of the military forces of the
" Crown in every part of the Empire. "
Dr. SMARTT : " Advise " alone is better.
CHAIRMAN: " Afjvisc." That is the Resolution of the Confer-
ference.
Sir WILFRID LATTRIER: T think T would like to defer this and
have n third reading of this Resolution also, as we had with the for-
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 121
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
mer one. I see nothing to take exception to, lint I would like to think Fourth Day.
it over 20th April,
u over. jgg.
CH AIRMAN: May I liave the attention of the Conference? Sir — —
Wilfrid Lanrier would like to have what we call a third reading of Beienci
this Resolution also, that is to sav, that it should not be published ,„. -r^.,. . ,
^■1 ii i i- j-i -^ I, u • <Sir Wilfrid
until the next meeting, aitor it has been seen again. Lanrier.)
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER: I would like to look at it on Mon-
day, although I may say I see nothing to take exception to at pres-
ent.
Dr. S^fARTT : I presume, Lord Elgin, that does not prevent the
statement of the Secretary of State for War being published?
CHAIRMAN: No, we can get that out. There is one Resolution
which is still at its third reading, Sir Wilfrid, with regard to Im-
perial Defence; I think we have practically agreed to it, but Mr.
Deakin on that occasion wanted to see it again. This is how it ran :
" That the Colonies be authorized to refer to the Committee of Im-
" perial Defence through the Secretary of State for advice on any
" local questions in regard to which expert assistance is deemed de-
" sirable, and whenever so desired the representative of the Colony
" which may wish for advice will be summoned to attend as a mem-
" ber of the Committee during the discussion of the questions rais-
" ed."
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: Was that not settled long ago?
Mr. DEAKIN : I thought so.
CHAIRMAN : I understood it was reserved in the same way as
the other point.
Mr. DEAKIN : I did not understand it was reserved, but merely
asked that I should be allowed to mention it as I have done this
morning in connection with the general question.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : It was settled by the very constitu-
tion of the Imperial Committee itself. Mr. Balfour — whose idea
perhaps it was — on two or three occasions stated very clearly the ob-
jects, and I had the honour myself of attending a meeting of that
committee in December 1903, for the very reason suggested in this
Resolution. It hardly seems necessary to make it a formal resolu-
tion.
CHAIRMAN: It was the explanation I gave on behalf of the
Prime Minister at the last meeting and it seemed to be acceptable
to the Conference.
Dr. JAMESON: Surely there is no objection to emphasizing it
further by passing it now.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: It is a work of supererogation, I
think.
Dr. JAMESON: Does it matter? It was not the case before that
the Committee of Defence could invite a representative of the Colony,
whereas now this goes a little further and says that practically a
Colony has the right to be invited whenever anything in which it is
concerned or upon which it has asked advice is being discussed by the
Defence Committee. I think it does go a little further.
Sir WILFRID LALTIIER : It seems to me simply burdening this
Conference with a Resolution about a matter which has always been
122 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
„S?,'^*''i .7- done. There need be no expression of opinion bv the Conference iip-
20th April, ii ■ • ^
19()7_ on this point.
Militarv CHALRMAX: I am entirely in the hands of the Conference.
Defence. Sir WILFKID LAUEIER : I do not see what it is wanted for.
^ LauH^r )'** Mr. HALDANE : I do not think myself, if I may say so, that it
is necessary. One is very familiar with the composition of the Com-
mittee of Imperial Defence, which is a skeleton or nucleus body; I
always attend it, but I am not a standing member of it. It has not
fixed composition, but consists merely of the people who are sum-
moned, and, of course, if any question arose affecting any particular
Colony, its representative would attend. The Prime Minister is
really the mainspring of the Committee, and he summons it as he
wants it.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX: He summons whomsoever he
likes ?
Mr. HALDANE : Whoever he likes and whoever is suitable.
Mr. DEAKEs : We did not feel entitled to suggest that we
should be represented at our own pleasure — we did not feel justified
in ofiicially representing it. Accordingly this Resolution was sub-
mitted for the approval of the British Government and the members
of the Conference to the proposition that in future any representa-
tive of a Colony which might wish for advice should be summoned
upon its request to attend as a member of the Committee during any
particular discussion. That gave us not merely an opportunity of
being invited as guests but a right to be present on our own motion
when matters in which we were concerned were under discussion.
That seems to me a distinct advance.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX : You think that is not included in
the memorandum?
Mr. DEAKIX : It is included now in March 1907.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think that is a proper thing to do.
Dr. SMARTT : I think it would do a great deal of good. I
will give the Conference a concrete case : — Some time ago the Im-
perial Government appointed a Defence Commission to inquire into
the defences of the Empire. They came to Cape Colony and no doubt
they inquired into the defences of the Peninsula, but they did not go
into the matter with the Government in that confidential manner
which, I think, if a Resolution of this sort is carried and approved
of b.v the Imperial Government, would be the case in the future.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX: I thought that was included al-
ready.
CIIAIRMAX : Then this Resolution may stand. We came to a
final Resolution also on the question of the constitution of the Con-
ference and that of course, now will be published.
Adjourned to Tuesday next at 11 o'clock.
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1007
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
FIFTH DAY. Fifth Day.
23rd April,
Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street, ^^"''
Tuesday, 23rd April, 1907.
Present.
The Right Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretarj- of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Bordex, K.C.JI.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. JBrodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisher-
ies (Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir William Lyxe, K.C.M.G., Minister of
State of Trade and Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works,
(Cape Colony).
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister
of Newfoundland.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. CnuRCHn^L, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of
State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.LE., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., ) t • x o
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G., } ^"'""^ Secretary.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also present:
The Right Honourable R. B. Haldane, K.C, M.P., Secretary of
State for War.
Colonel G. F. Ellison, C.B., Principal Private Secretary.
AND
The Right Honourable The Lord Tweedmouth, First Lord of the
Admiralty.
Captain Ottley, M.V.O.. R.N., Director of Naval Intelligence.
Mr. W. Graham Greene, C.B., Assistant Secretary to the Ad-
miralty.
124
COLONIAL COSFERESCE, 1907
Fifth Day,
23rd April,
1907.
Military
Defence.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
MILITARY DEFEXCE.
CHAIEMAX : Gentlemen, the first business is to finally approve
the Resolution on Military Defence -n-hich was before the meeting-
on Saturday last. I understand that there is some suggestion from
Canada.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: In the fourth line I would ask
whether the words " to immediate action '" do any particular good,
and whether they might not be left out?
Mr. HALDAXE : We thought that might be so. You mean miss-
ing out those words and going on to " any of the Governments "?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX: Yes.
Mr. HALDAXE: I do not think those words mean anything.
They lo:k as if they suggested that there might be immediate action.
ShaU we strike out " without wishing to commit to immediate at-
tion"?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX: Simply reading it as "without
wishing to commit any of the Governments."
Mr. HALDAXE : Omitting the words " to immediate action."
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX: Yes.
Dr. JAMESOX : Is there any harm in suggesting immediate
action ?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX: Is it any good?
Dr. JAMESOX : Yes, I think it is a kind of fillip towards doing
something, and not only talking about it.
Mr. HALDAXE : I do not attach importance myself to it, one
way or the other.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER: "Without wishing to commit any
of the Governments," I think it should be.
( 'HAIRMAX : Omit the words " to immediate action." Is that
agreed to?
Mr. F. R. MOOR : I do not think it improves it.
Sir FRKDERICIC BORDEX: Then as to the word "recruited,"
it seems to me "' recruited " is liardly tlie word to apply to officers.
" Selected " would, I think, he a better word.
Mr. HALDAXE : " Selected ' is I think, a more appropriate word
to apply to an officer.
!Mr. DEAKIX : Do we gain anything by retaining any of these
words " without wishing to commit to immediate action any of the
Governments represented " ? Would it not be advantageous to omit
those words, and possibly substitute some other words for " recognises
and affirms," to indicate clearly the views of the Conference.
Mr. HALDAXE : '' Is of opinion." for instance.
Mr. DF;AKIN; Something of that sort, safegiiarding the state-
ment " without wishing to commit to immediate action." If we
agree to it we would not wish to commit our Governraputs to im-
mediate iiction. We could not. It is a matter for themselves.
Mr. HALDAXE: The Conference is not an executive Conference,
and I should have thought if you omitted those words and put in
COLOyiAL COyFEREyCE, 1907
125
Military-
Defence.
(Mr.
Haklane.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
such words as "is of opinion "' it would make it quite clear that the Fifth Day.
Conference is expressing only an opinion. ^^'^Igw"^'''
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.
Sr WILFEID LAUKIEK: It is nothing more than an opinion
there. It is to be left to the different Legislatures to legislate upon.
Mr. DEAKIN: I suggest the omission of these words, and the
Resolution would ilifu run: "That this Conference welcomes and
'■ cordially approves the exposition of general principles embodied in
" the statement of the Secretary of State for War and is of opinion
" that for the service of the Empire a General Staff," and so on.
Mr. HALDANE: ".Is of opinion that there is a need."
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes; "Is of opinion that there is a need of
developing throughout the Empire."
Dr. JAMESON: Wliy substitute "is of opinion" for the more
emphatic " recognises and affirms " ?
Mr. DEAKIN : I order to emphasize the fact that we are not exe-
cutive but merely a consultative Conference, and that the govern-
ments are the people to decide. I have no objection to " recognises
and affirms," but it is suggested that it might appear to go a little
further than our function warrants.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We say we are not, of course, committing
our countries to immediate action.
Dr. JAMESON: We are only a conference and cannot do any-
thing. Why should not we "recognise and affirm"? They are
stronger words, and I do not see why we should weaken it.
Mr. DEAKIN : I have no objection to " recognises and affirms,"
but was endeavouring to meet Sir Frederick Borden's views.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: If the words "to immediate ac-
tion " are left out, I am satisfied with the rest, and I have no partic-
ular objection then.
CHAIRMAN: It is suggested that the whole sub-sentence from
" without " to " represented " should come out.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I would leave it as it is taking out
the words " to immediate action " — " without wishing to commit any
of the Governments" I think is better.
Mr. DEAKIN : We passed it in that form, but if we are altering
it I think it is a great improvement to leave out all those words.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I would take out the words "to im-
mediate action," and substitute " selected " for " recruited. "
Mr. HALDANE: Yes, that is much better.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : Yes, that has been done.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: On this point may I ask for infor-
mation ? It is a thing we should know more about. How is this selec-
tion to be made? Would Mr. Haldane select from the different
Colonial officers in Canada, for instance?
Mr. HALDANE : Our plan is this. We have a list of persons eli-
gible for appointment to the General Staff. If you send over a name
and say : " This is a man we recommend to you," we should of
course ask you for his qualifications, and we should put him on the
list, and then arrange with you from the names put on the list to
126 COLONIAL COXFEREKCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifth Day. select somebodv for an appointment in exchange for somebody we
^^""leOT:"^' sent to you.
Sir FEEDERICK BORDEX: I would like to have it understood,
Defe*ncY ^^'^ ^ think this is what is understood really, that where there is a
,jjj. General Staff now in existence, as there is in Canada, members of
Haldaue.) that Staff should be selected to fill appointments on the General
Staff.
ilr. HALDANE: Yes, you would not send people who were not
on your General Staff.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: No.
Mr. HALDANE: No. Each country would have its General
Staff organization, either very much developed or rudimentary, as
it might be, but you would send people from your Staff, whatever it
was.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: And there would be no selection,
as I understand, except through the Government of the particular
country interested.
Mr. HA T.DANE : That is right. We should take nobody whom
you did not recommend out of your General Staff. None of us
would, of course, bind ourselves one way or the other; it would be
a matter of convenience and arrangement; but we should take over
here in the ordinary course naturally anybody you recommended as
being well qualified from your General Staff, and at your request we
should send you somebody whom you liked.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: And the responsibility for any
particular officer so selected would continue to the particular Gov-
ernment under which he was serving.
Mr. HALDANE : He would be a member of their General Staff
detailed for this general service.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: Yes, I think that is so. There is
one word here which it is thought might be improved — " fostering. "
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I merely make just this suggestion,
that instead of " which shall be the means of fostering the study of
" military science," we should say, " which shall study military
" science." I do not care very much which it is.
~Mr. HALDANE : Yes, " which shall study military science in all
" its branches." That is quite as good. If that is agreed to I have
no criticism upon it.
Mr. DEAIHN : T have some abbreviations to suggest.
;Xfr. HALDANE: Then it will be " whicli shall study military
science " in all its branches."
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think that is all. as far as I am
concerned.
Mr. DEAKIN: Will Sir Frederick Borden kindly listen to this,
and see if it will not simplify it — " That this Conference, " omitting
the next words, '' cordially approving the exposition of general
" principles embodied in the statement of the Secretary of State for
" War ■' — omitting the next words and substituting " reconunends to
" the governments represented "' — omitting the next words " the need
" of developing for the s<Tviee of the Empire a General Staff selected
" from the forces of the Empire." So that it would read: " That this
Deakin.)
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 127
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
'' Conference, cordially approving " — this is all we do — " the exposi- Fifth Day.
" tion of general principles embodied in the statement of the Score- ^^'^'^q^^'"^'''
" tary of State for War, recommends to the Governments represent- L
" ed the need of developing for the service of the Empire a General Military
" Staff selected from the forces. " Would that meet your view, Mr. Defence.
Ilaldane? _ (Mr.
Mr. HALDANE : That meets my view. Tt is shorter, and I am
in favour of anything that is short.
Mr. DEAKIN: It gets rid of a great many words; we cordially
approve tlie exposition of general principles, and recommend to our
Governments the need of developing a general staff.
Mr. HALDANE: "Recommend the desirability" might be bet-
ter.
Mr. DEAKIN: Very good; I was only shortening it. It is at
present rather winding.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Sometimes it is well to have these long
statements, and I would let it stand as it is.
Jilr. DEAKIN : At this stage I do not press it. We really ac-
cepted it, but when one commences to criticise it is hard to stop.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I would like it to stand as it is, with
the two short amendments we have made.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: Put in "selected" instead of
" recruited," and leave out the words " to immediate action^" and
leave out the word " fostering."
CHAIRMAN : Then it reads : " That this Conference welcomes
" and cordially approves the exposition of general principles em-
" bodied in the statement of the Secretary of the State for War, and
" without wishing to commit any of the Governments represented,
"recognises and affirms the need of developing, for the service of the
" Empire, a General Staff, selected from the forces of the Empire as
" a whole, which shall study military science iu all its branches,"
and so on.
Dr. SMARTT: Surely that does not meet the case? I understood
the feeling was that some of the Governments represented here might
not be able to take part in this at once. Consequently the Secretary
of State for War very wisely put in " without wishing to commit to
immediate action." But really we are now going to pass a resolu-
tion under whicli certain of the Governments will not be committed
to anything except passing a pure opinion. They do not even com-
mit themselves to act upon it in the near future, nor even in the
distant future.
Mr. HALDANE : But having agreed upon the broad principle,
we shovdd now proceed to communicate with you with a view to see-
ing what you could do to carry this out. and as we are all of one
mind we shall at least all approach the thing from a common point
of view. We would take the first action in making suggestions to
you for your consideration.
Dr. SMARTT : Then would it not be better to leave it as you
worded it, " without wishing to commit to immediate action, recog-
nises and affirms the principle of establishing."
Mr. HALDANE: I do not think the words make much differ-
ence; but the point is we have agreed on a general principle. That
128
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Fifth Day.
23rd April,
1907.
Military
Defence.
(Mr.
Haldane.)
Resolution
III.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
is the real importance of it. We could not bind or force any Gov-
ernment, nor do we want to. This is a deliberating Conference.
Dr. SMAKTT : We do not force the Government, but we come
to a conclusion as to the necessity of it as quickly as possible. That
is what I want to see aiBrmed in the Resolution.
ilr. HALDAjSTE : Do you think you add anything by putting in
the words?
Sir JOSEPH WAED : You would not help it forward in any way
by putting in " committing to immediate action." It would not get
over the suggestion you are making as to any Government not taking
action.
Dr. SMARTT : No, but it would really appear from the Resolu-
tion that, so far as possible, we are all desirous of immediate action
and of this matter not being delayed.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: But we recognise and affirm the
need for developing. Wliat more can we do beyona that?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: So far as New Zealand is concerned, as
soon as the Secretary of State for War communicates with vis we
will consider any proposals and deal with them.
Mr. HALDANE : By getting rid of the words " to immediate
action " we have got rid of the suggestion that it is not to be im-
mediate action.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Quite so.
CHAIRMAN: Then the Resolution is to stand.
The Resolution, as amended, was carried unanimously.
NAVAL DEFENCE.
Naval CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, we now proceed to consider Naval De-
Defence, fence, and we have on the agenda two resolutions, one from the
Commonwealth of Australia and one from New Zealand, and perhaps
the most convenient cour.se woiild be to proceed as we did the other
day, that is to ask those who represent those two Colonies to first
state their views. Will ^Mr. Deakin be ready to open it?
Mr. DEAKIN: Before Lord Tweedmouth speaks?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Whichever you like.
Mr. DEAKIN: Perhaps you would wish to indicate generally
the policy of the Admiralty. As I take it, this is not merely a dis-
cussion on Naval Defence for New Zealand and Australia. Incid-
entally we have a special interest to consider, because we have an Act
upon our Statute books, and the question of amending that Act by
addition or variation is a subject whieli eoucorns us a great deal more
than anybody else. But we have assembled first to take a general
view of Naval Defence, and to be made acquainted with the policy
of the British Government, presenting questions of great interest for
the whole Conference. Incidentally one of these deals with the
particular agreement relating to New Zealand and Australia. I do
not know whether Sir Josepli Ward agrees.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes I agree; I think it would be most
valuable to hear the opinion of Lord Tweedmouth.
COLOyiAL COSFERENCE, 1907 129
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I feel it a Fifth Day.
high privilege to sit at this table to discuss this matter with the "^ jo^*"^'''
Prime Ministers of the self-governing dominions of the King beyond '-
the seas. My position, of course, is rather a different one from that Naval
of my colleague and good friend Mr. Haldane. As I understand, he ^^ t ■ h
gave you a vivid and interesting sketch of the new system of organi- ^ Ward.)
sation of the Army, and explained to you how that new scheme
might be adapted to your Colonial wants and wishes. My position
iis quite a different one. I cannot offer any sketch. I rather lay
before you a completed picture. Our history undoubtedly is closely
intertwined with the history of the Naval Service from earliest days,
and though it is the fact, no doubt, that from time to time we have
met with reverses and we have met with accidents, yet, on the whole,
from the earliest days to the present moment the Navy has been able
to defend the growing country, that is the Empire as a whole, and I
do not think that any charge can be brought against it of ever, on
any occasion, having failed. Well, gentlemen, that being the case,
what I have in the first place to ask is, that you should place confi-
dence in the Board of Admiralty, and in the present Government, for
the future safety of the country. We welcome you, and we ask you
to take some leading part in making more complete than it is at
present the naval defence of the Empire. I wish to recognise all
that our cousins over the sea have done in consequence of decisions
of former Conferences. I know that you gave to the Government and
to the Admiralty, with a free and unstinting hand, the help that you
thought you could manage to give. Gentlemen, I have only one re-
servation to make, and in making it I ask that, as we have proved
ourselves successful in the past, you should put your trust in us now.
The only reservation that the Admiralty desire to make is, that they
claim to have the charge of the strategical questions which are ne-
cessarily involved in Naval Defence, to hold the command of the na-
val forces of the country, and to arrange the distribution of ships
in the best possible manner to resist attacks and to defend the Em-
pire at large, whether it be our own islands or the dominions beyond
the seas. We thoroughly recognize that we are responsible for that
defence. We want you to help us in that defence. We want you to
give us all the assistance you can, but we do not come to you as beg-
gars ; we gladly take all that you can give us, but at the same time,
if you are not inclined to give us the help that we hope to have from
you, we acknowledge our absolute obligation to defend the King's
dominions across the seas to the best of our ability.
Now, there is, after all, only one sea that laps around all our
shores. The sea is the link that joins us together. It was the rea-
son of your upspringing. It is our first defence. It is the origin of
our great commerce. It is the outlet and inlet of our erports and our
imports, and it is to us in these islands the channel through which
we get the food and raw material which are so necessary to our vast
population. There is one sea, there is one Empire, and there is one
Navy, and I want to claim in the first place your help, and in the se-
cond place authority for the Admiralty to manage this great service
without restraint. How great a part the sea takes in all our life,
in all our prosperity, is, I think, best seen from the extraordinary
amount of shipping that our country puts out. Last year, in 1906,
Great Britain's output of shipping amounted to no less than 1,936,793
tons. The United States had an output of 486,650 tons; Germany,
884,614 tons, and France, 58,502 tons. The output of all foreign na-
.58—0
130
COLONIAL COyFEREKCE. 1907
Fifth Dav.
23rd April,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
tions amounted to 1,319,900 tons, so that last year Great Britain led
by no less than 616,893 tons all the other nations in the world.
Mr. DEAKH^ : Is that new shipping ?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: New shipping.
Mr. DEAKnST: Commercial shipping only?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: No; it includes warships. I think in
the British Eeturn there were about 108,000 tons of warships. But
with that enormous interest in the sea and in the shipping that
goes on the sea, it is absolutel.v necessary that we should make the
passage of that shipping across the sea safe. That is what we aim
at securing, and that is what we ask your help in doing.
ilr. DEAKLN : Pardon me for interrupting, but when you speak
about British shipping, does that include shipping constructed in
other parts of the Empire, or only in the United Kingdom?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: That is within the United Kingdom.
ilr. DEAKLN : The total of the construction in the various Col-
onies is small ?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: It is not very large. It amounted last
year to about 26,000 tons. I have here a statement of the subsidies
which in the past have been given by the various Colonies. Australia
gives 200,000Z. ; New Zealand, 40,000?. ; Cape Colony, 50,000L ; Natal,
35,000Z. ; Newfoundland, 3,000?. ; in all 328,000?.
Gentlemen, what I have to say is that the Admiralty and His
Majestjr's Government are perfectly ready to meet these contributors
to Admiralty funds in a liberal and conciliatory manner. We do not
wish to insist that the contributions from the Colonies should ne-
cessarily be in the form only of money. We are quite ready to enter
into any arrangements with the Colonies that may seem most suit-
table to them, and which may seem to bring advantage to the Navy,
and advantage to the Colonies themselves. I have here drawn up a
short statement of what may be called the general principle with
which the admiralty desire to meet the representatives of the self-
governing Dominions of the King beyond the seas. His Majesty's
Government recognize the natural desire of the self-governing Colon-
ies to have a more particular share in providing the naval defence
force of the Empire, and, so long as the condition of unity of com-
mand and direction of the fleet is maintained, they are ready to con-
sider a modification of the e.xisting arrangements to meet the views of
the various Colonies. In the opinion of the Government, while the
distribution of the fleet must be determined by strategical require-
ments of which the Admiralty are the judge, it would be of great
assistance if the Colonial Governments would undertake to provide
for local service in the Iniporinl squadrons the smaller vessels that
are useful for defence against possible raids or for co-operation with a
squadron, and also to equij) and maintain docks and fitting establish-
ments which can be used by His Jlajesty's ships. It will further be
of much assistance if coaling facilities are pro\'ided, and arrange-
ments can be made for a supply of coal and naval stores wliich otlier-
wise would have to be sent out speciall.v or purchased locally.
I iinderstand that, in Australia particularly, and in South Africa,
it is desired to start some naval service of your own. Perhaps I might
suggest that if the provision of the small craft which are necessarily
incident to the work of a great fleet of modern battleships could be
COLOMAL COy'FEREXCE, 1907
131
Xaval
Defence.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 5S
made locally, it would be a very great help to the general work of the I ifth Day.
Navy. You cannot take the small craft such as torpedo boats and ~'^' jq^''"
submarines across the ocean, and for warships to arrive in South _' — L
Africa or in Australia or in New Zealand or in Canada, and find
ready to their hand well-trained men in good vessels of this kind,
would be an enormous advantage to them. It would be an enor-
mous advantage to find ready to their hand men well trained,
ready to tako n part in the work of the fleet. There is, I think, the
further advantage in these small flotillas, that they will be an admir-
able means of coast defence; that you will be able by the use of them
to avoid practically all danger from any sudden raid which might be
made by a cruising squadron. What I should like to point out is
that, above all things in this work, the submarine is probably the
most important and the most effective weapon. It is the weapon
with which you can meet a fleet attacking during the day or indi-
vidual ships attacking by day. I am assured by my advisers at
the Admiralty that it is a most important weapon; that it has
already reached very considerable development, and it is one on
which we may rely with great confidence. That is a view that
is very strongly taken by some of the leading men in the French
Navy, who think that the submarine is really the weapon of the
future. I believe myself that the provision of submarines and all
the smaller torpedo destroyers and boats would be of the greatest
help to the Navy, supposing it were, as I hope it may not be, drawn
into a war abroad.
Wo want to consult with you as to the details of this scheme. Of
course if each separate colony is to be treated on a different footing^
we are quite ready to do that and to make separate arrangements
with each separate Colony according to its own wishes. I thoroughly
recognise the great difference that there is between the conditions of
one country and another. The desire of the Admiralty is to meet
those wishes so far as they possibly can be met. I think perhaps it
is impossible suddenly to make a change. I would suggest that a
beginning should be made, and that probably the best way to start
would be to allocate to local purposes certain portions of the sub-
sidies already given. The particular purposes to which that money
should be devoted should be discussed in detail between the repre-
sentatives of the various Colonies and the Admiralty, so that a
thoroughly good scheme might be worked out in the end. At the
sam? time we do not put aside the payment of the subsidies at all.
From those Colonies who are desirous of continuing altogether on the
lines on which they have gone in the past, we shall be very glad to
accept their contributon, and accept it gratefully, and do the best
to apply the money in a useful manner.
Tuen I should like to say a single word on the further point of the
provision of docks and coaling facilities in the Colonies. The
enormous development of the modern warship entails important con-
sequences. These great modem warships require large docks to con-
tain them. I think we are getting on well with the provision of
docks. At this moment in our own country and abroad we have. I
think, 1.3 Government docks which will take in our largest 'ship, the
"Dreadnought." I think in the course of the next two years we
shall have four more, which will make about 17 altogether. But it
is very desirable that we should have in all parts of the world docks
which could take such ships, supposing they were to meet with au
58—94
132
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Fifth Day.
23rd April,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
accident or were to receive damage in war. I do not know whether
Sir Wilfrid Laurier would consider that there might be some chance
of Canada doing that in Esquimalt and Halifax, which have now
been handed over to the Canadian people. We have already a dock
at Simons Bay which will take a " Dreadnought," but all through the
Empire it would be a great thing to find big docks at hand in the
event of any accident or damage that might happen to a ship. It is
the same thing with regard to coal. Coal is the life of a modem
warship. It is an absolute necessity. There are great difficulties in
getting it. We are better off, no doubt, than other Powers in that
respect because we have coaling stations already scattered here and
there over the whole world, and now there are many new inventions
and new developments in methods of coaling on the sea and at the
coaling depots. But it is a subject to which I should like to direct
the attention of the Prime Ministers as one of the things which are
of the greatest use to a fleet at sea.
Gentlemen, I have come to you absolutely frankly to tell you how
we hope to be able to meet you. I am anxious to hear what the repre-
sentatives of the various Colonies want to do. They have already put
forward two resolutions, and I think it would be weD that I should
hear what they have to say, and I should also like to he made aware
of what the representatives of each Colony think as to how far they
could meet the suggestions that I have ventured to make.
Sir WILFKID LAURIEE: Will you first call upon Australia
and Xew Zealand, as they have proposed resolutions?
i£r. DEAEIN': The resolutions of Australia and New Zealand,
after all. nre quite subsidiary to the main principles on which his
Lordship has addressed us. Speaking for myself, may I say that I quite
appreciate the frankness with which his Lordship has approached the
subject, and the light you have thrown upon it. I am not surprised
at the attitude of the Government, because I have sufficient familiar-
ity with the references which you and also your colleagues have made
to this great object, but at the same time must admit my own want
of competence to deal off-hand with the major questions which you
have raised, either directly or by necessary implication — they are of
the first importance — without some little further consideration.
The main views you have submitted, so far as I have followed
them, relate to the question of Colonial co-operation in the Naval
Defence of the Empire. This divides itself into two parts; first, a
provision for local defence, which again divides itself into the de-
fence which is to be used, so to speak, by the localised bodies or
other agencies, and next the localised Imperial Squadrons, if I may
distinguish them by that title. Beyond these local defences comes
the question of the possibility of a general defence not localised, upon
an Imperial scale, whose obligation would bo adapted to the varying
circumstances of the different parts of the Empire — varying as be-
tween themselves, and varying again from those of the United King-
dom. Any consideration I have ever been able to give to this
question has led me to the reluctant conclusion that so far as we are
unable to find any scheme of the measure of responsibility either
particular or general. T would be very glad to be enlightened upon
this subject. None of the assosaments and estimates made for the
purpose have appeared to me to include all the factors to be taken
into account, or to have furnished anything like an exact proportion
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
133
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Oeakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
between them. Those are the main issues, as I follow them, which Fifth Day.
are inseparably associated with the scheme that you have submitted 23rd April,
very clearly to us. Afterwards, when we have considered such
gineral questions of contribution and co-operation, the matter which
particularly interests New Zealand and ourselves, is as to the local
form of that co-operation. Australia's responsibility is not feed on
a monetary standard, and we submit that this is not the most ac-
ceptable standard for Australia, nor is it likely to further the objects
that we have, or the objects that you have, in maintaining the present
ciiutribution. But that, as already stated, is a subsidiary question.
The larger principle of the relations which self-governing
Colonies should hold to the Imperial Naval Defence should first
come under consideration, because that is the major premise of which
the form of any contribution is after all only a minor matter. I
must confess myself quite unable to criticise with sufiBcient
pertinency the larger principle of this question at this moment.
There are others here not under my disability — for instance, Mr.
Brodeur. who represents the iNaval Department of Canada, but so far
as I am concerned wish time for further consideration.
Let me, however, by way of addition mention one matter which
arose out of the address of your colleague, the Secretary for War,
affecting the possibilities of the development of local supplies of am-
munition within the Commonwealth. These are a necessity in most
States, but of far greater urgency in Australia than elsewhere. We
desire to see established cordite and ammunition factories which
should be sufficient for our, own wants. These wants in time of peace
are necessarily very small, while in time of war, with the possibility
of interruption of communications, they would be ver.v large. Our
difficultj-, therefore, is to face the cost of establishing or subsidizing
factories for the manufacture of this ammunition within our own
borders, because of that enormous difference between the regular de-
mand upon the factories and their machinery and the extraordinary
demand for which they ought to be equipped to some extent. Possibly
in the matter of cordite ammunition for small arms, we do not
see much difficulty. We think we can establish a factory which would
meet our wants fully in peace, and reasonably in war, keeping re-
serves always in hand. But if we could enlarge the scope so as to
supply the squadron or squadrons in our seas with, at all events,
part of the ammunition and the cordite they require, that would en-
able us to conduct that factory on a much larger scale. It is not a
desire to make a profit out of supplying the naval wants, but simply
to keep the factory going on a greater scale, and enlarge its capacity
so that it might be less inadequate in time of war. Of course we
recognize the great difficulty in the testing of this cordite, which
is now very elaborately carried out with a great number of guns of
different types. It is necessary to test the cordite for a gun of a par-
ticular type in a g\in of that type, but as it happens, at the present
time that need not be an insuperable objection, because we have quite
a variety of guns in Australia, many more types than we ought to
have had, since they have not conferred upon us that defensive
strength which we should have enjoyed if we had been limited to a
few types. Opinions have varied in the Admiralty and War Office, as
they must vary from time to time, and we have had the full effect
of the variations. However, under the circumstances, the report of
the Committee of Imperi.J Defence advises us to lay aside quite a
number of these guns which we would require for testing purposes.
134 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
^rd'^A^rii "^°^' ^^^^^ ^^o^e guns are worn out — and then the question of sup-
ISO?/' ' plyiag them might be a more serious matter — they would perhaps
suffice for the application of tests. We would be able at least to
Defence commence with them. I am not pressing for an answer to-day. I
CM ^""^^'^ expressed already my inability to cope off-hand with the great
Deakin.^ question you have raised, without more time for consideration. Nor
would I ask for a reply on this point until we have told you what
we can offer. In making this proposition for the supply of ammuni-
tion we do not expect that the Imperial Navy should accept from vis
cordite or any other supplies any L;ss efficiently tested than they are
here. We accept that.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: It would be absolutely necessary that we
should test the cordite in the most effective manner.
Mr. DEAKIN : Absolutely necessary.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: There is another thing to be remem-
bered, that as far as our knowledge at present goes of cordite, or a
large class of cordite at any rate, provided it is kept at a low tem-
perature under 60 degrees its life is very long — certainly 60 or 70
years — whereas when it is long affected by a high temperature it goes
bad.
Mr. DEAKIN: I am aware of that. Of course that estimate of
the very long life of cordite is still theoretical, because there has been
no cordite of that character for 60 or TO years, though all the scientific
calculations point that waj-. We see no difficulty in the conditions
of temperature. If we make cordite we nlust fulfil those conditions;
if we do not fulfil them we cannot do business. We do not look for
mere profit. To sell you an inferior explosive for the protection of
our own shores and shipping would be short-sighted economy; but
on the assumption that we are able to satisfy you as to tests and
storage, it would, or might, make a considerable difference to us even
if we had only the supplying of certain portions of the annual ordi-
nary consumption of the squadrons in the Indian, China, and Aus-
tralian seas, the present area within which our squadron operates. It
would be inexcusable to bring forward a detail of this kind, were it
not to give you the opportunity of consulting your officers in the hope
that you may in some way or other help us to improve our means of
ammunition supply, which would then be available for your squadrons
in all grave emergencies. Other members of the Conference more
competent than myself should cope with the great questions raised.
We should have an opportunity of seeing your remarks in print.
They most decidedly are serious enough for much consideration.
Clear as is your exposition, it raises so many matters of moment to us
that, to treat them as they deserve, more time for retloclion and more
detail would be required. I therefore do not touch on the question
of coaling or the variety of other interesting problonis suggested.
Sir JOSEPH WAKD: Lord Elgin, and Gentlemen,— I begin by
saying that the value to the different countries — I speak, of course,
specially for the one that I represent — of having an opportunity of
hearing the views of Lord Twecdmouth, as First Lord of the Ad-
miralty, to whom we look as the head of tlie Naval Branch, is very
important indeed. I want to convey for Now Zealand my concur-
rence in the expressions that Lord Tweedmouth has given utterance
to. that we should have confidence in the Board of Admiralty and in
the British Government in connection with the Navy. I subscribe
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 135
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
to that absolutely. The people in our country believe — and, of course, Fifth Day.
1 am speaking on behalf of the people of our country — that the great ^^'^Ini^P'^"'
interests, enormous as they are, extending throughout the Empire, L
must of necessity receive first consideration at the hands of the Board Naval
of Admiralty and of the British Government of the day. I am very Deience.
glad indeed to hear Lord Tweedmouth say that it is his desire to '^ Ward^)*'''
make the position of the Empire more secure than it is at present.
That great object is at the bottom of the representation that the
Colonies have here in connection with Defence matters. We want to
assist as far as we can in making our general position stronger aiid
more* secure than it is at present, though it is happily very strong
indeed. I want to say that I fully endorse the view expressed by
Lord Tweedmouth, that there is but one sea around our shores, and
that with one sea and one Empire, there should in reality be but one
Navy. The outcome of deliberations such as we are engaged in now,
should be to place both ships and the disposition of the ships, and the
distribution of the ships and the whole question of strategical work,
entirely under the control of those at the pulse of the Empire —
London ; who are responsible in the time of war for the working out
of any engagements that may take place for the purpose of common
defence. In any help that New Zealand may be able to give towards
the building up of a stronger position, that main principle should be
recognized, and will be, certainly by my Colony. We regard the
custodians of the Navy, the Board of Admiralty, as those who, being
at the seat or pulse of the Empire, are the authorities in times of
war to govern the Navy. We also recognise that they are responsible
for the defence of our commerce on the seas, either in our part of the
world or elsewhere, which Lord Tweedmouth has referred to. How
far we can help in a subsidiary or supporting manner, which we will
readily do. is a question to be decided upon in conjunction with the
Home Government. The details will certainly be improved as the
result of this Conference.
I am prepared to cordially co-operate with ilr. Deakin as the
representative of the Commonwealth of Australia in helping him to
attain whatever his country conceives to be desirable for the purpose
of carrying on the great work of the defence of that portion of the
Empire. I was very glad to hear Lord Tweedmouth say that different
countries could be treated, and he was prepared to have them treated,
in different ways. In some respects we may require totally different
treatment, while in the main co-operating to effectuate a strong posi-
tion generally. It is important, from the view which I take of our
country, to briefly indicate what the position of New Zealand is, and
its difference in some respects from the Commonwealth of Australia
and the great Dominion of Canada and Great Britain itself, which is
so important a part of this great organisation. Our country is com-
paratively young; under 70 years of age. We have before the people
in New Zealand still the work of the interior development of a coun-
try which in the years to come will be capable of carrying 20,000,000
of people without any difficulty. We have under one million of popu-
lation at the moment. We have all the ramifications of the develop-
ment of great public works, so essential as a provision for the future
to enable people to settle in the interior of our country. We have
still before us the making of the railways throughout our country.
Though we have between two and three thousand miles of railways
open to-day. it is comparatively speaking but the fringe of what the
future years will require to have established in the country in order
136 COLONIAL COyfEREyCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
M^n'^i^^'i' *° meet the requirements of its people. That is one aspect of the
J9fl7_ ' matter which any young country such as the one I represent, with it3
future all before it, has to very seriously consider. Whilst anxious to
Naval jjgjp ^jjg Qjj ■^orld and the other portions of the Empire in making
(Sir Joseph ^ system of common defence upon both land and the seas, the all-
Ward.) importance of which we recognise to the fullest possible extent, we
have still to keep before us as a young country, the fact that in the
future many millions of money will be required for the country itself
to carry out great undertakings that in the Old World have been
carried out, many of them, such for instance as your railways, by
private enterprise. In our country those undertakings of great
public utility are not carried out on the basis of private enterprise,
but by the State. That work must devolve in the future very largely
upon the State. It is because of the fact that we have these great
undertakings that may take years to fulfil in the future before us
that we should hesitate to impose upon ourselves the burden of the
construction of ships of war, or of any great liabilities connected with
the maintenance of ships of war, or any great financial responsibili-
ties other than we actually commit ourselves to in a defined agree-
ment. In the meantime we cannot see our way to undertake this
possibly heavy financial responsibility side by side with the great
development policy which is very important to New Zealand, as its
success is to the Old World from the point of view of the aspects of
trade, and from the potentiality of the settlement of British people
within our borders — important also from any direction which one
could name. It is for these reasons, in brief, that New Zealand
hesitates to embark upon so great an undertaking, in favour of which
there is a vast amount to be said, as establishing a local fleet for the
purpose of local defence, with the attendant repairing and large
dockage accommodation such as has been referred to by Lord Tweed-
mouth. We have, with a comparatively small population, to consider
the position from a practical standpoint, and to see how far we can
go in the direction of co-operating in a practical way with the larger
scheme suggested in the observations made by Lord Tweedmouth.
I want to s.ay that the statement made that the Admiralty is pre-
pared to meet the colonies in a liberal and conciliatory manner, and
if necessary not upon a money basis only, is a matter which is deserv-
ing of the fullest consideration at the hands of the country I repre-
sent. I desire also to make it quite clear that I do not say that in
any future agreement we make for our country we should give a
money contribution only to assist in the up-keep and maintenance of
our portion of the Navy. I gathered from the observations of Lord
Tweedmouth that the British Government is prepared to entertain a
manning proposal. Whatever is the maximum amount we may elect
and agree to contribute — and I may say at once we are prepared to
give more than the 40,000/. a year that we are now giving — if that is
converted into a proposal for the manning of ships and the paying
for the manning of those ships in our portion of the world, still leav-
ing thorn at the full disposition of the British Admiralty oven though
we pay for the full manning of them, I am quite prepared to con-
sider whether we should not undertake to relieve the central authority
of difficulties which now arise in connection with the manning of our
ships, such as having two rates of pay for the crews, and whether we
should not man them completely at one rate of colonial pay, outside,
of course, the Imperial officers required to control them, which T pre-
sume would be necessary, under the direction of fhe Navy. T am
COLOyiAL COXFEREyCE, 1007 137
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
quite prepared to consider for our Colony whether we should not Fifth Day.
change our contribution from a maximum amount into an amount ^^'''IpfJ'"''
to be expended on the manning of the ships which the Admiralty may '_
think it desirable to keep in our waters. Naval
With regard also to the suggestion made by Mr. Deakin of the Peience.
necessity for further consideration after we have seen in print the ■^^rd^)''
important speech delivered by Lord Tweedmouth, I want to reserve
final judgment upon the great issues involved until one has had that
further time to consider it. But I think this is too important to
allow it to pass in the first instance without saying a word or two
upon certain aspects of it which struck me as Lord Tweedmouth
placed them before us. The method of putting smaller ships out in
our waters than those required at home and other places abroad is
one I take no exception to whatever. One recognises the principle
that in times of warfare the whole strategical work and the whole
disposition of the ships is to be under the control of the Admiralty,
and that they, with the various classes of ships in the different por-
tions of the Empire, will use their greater ones wherever required,
and also that they may either elect to keep for the purpose of local
defence the smaller subsidiary vessels such as we have in our country,
or to call them somewhere else to assist in times of stress. Upon this
question, however, I want to say that if it were possible in any scheme
which the Board of Admiralty and the British Government lay down
to have some unification, even although we changed our contribution
to one of paying for the actual manning of vessels, it would in my
judgment be very much better from the standpoint of Xew Zealand
to have that uniformity, whether Australia carries it out upon its
own account or whether we remain attached to the British Navy
entirely. That uniformity of system would, I think, add very mate-
rially to the swift and practical working of the Navy in times of
trouble.
Lord Tweedmouth suggested that the Colonial Governments shoiild
equip and maintain docks for use by His Majesty's ships. Upon that
[heading I agree with the principle suggested, but of course there
must be a limit to a proposal of that kind as far as New Zealand goes.
Already we have co-operated with the Admiralty, and we have at
least one of the docks in our country which is capable of taking, I
think I am right in saying, any of the ships that are out in oiir
waters — that is the splendid Calliope dock in Auckland. Within the
next few years we shall have a very large dock finished at the port
of Wellington, which will also be capable of accommodating any
of the ships likely to be retained in our waters ; and we have two other
large docks in New Zealand already, one at Lyttelton and one at Port
Chalmers, where there is also a second and a larger one now being
built. I foresee one possibility, and that is, if an Aiistralian Squadron
were to be kept out in our waters, and our existing docks, or the docks
aboiit to be constructed, were not of sufficient length to cover the ships
out there, we should be placed in a very awkward position if the duty
were cast upon us of equipping and maintining those docks entirely,
and for this reason : we have a different method of initiating and
carrying o\it the construction of docks in New Zealand to what exists
in the Old Country. We have what are known as Harbour Boards,
and in one case a Dock Trust, elected by the people from different por-
tions of the district, and upon which some Government nominees are
appointed for the purpose of looking after the general interests of the
habours and docks of New Zealand. There are two possibilities that
138
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
Fifth Dav.
23rd April,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
may arise about this suggestion, and I make it in order that the point
may be further considered as to whether the Admiralty should not
define what is to be the dock of the future in our waters so far as
capacity goes for the berthing of these ships. Take the case of Well-
ington. If they finish a dock 600 fe«t long in the course of 18 months,
British ships may be sent out to our coimtry 650 feet long. I am not
giving 600 feet as the length of the Wellington dock, as it may, and I
think is to be, much longer. I am giving an illustration only. It is a
good thing to encourage in our country the providing of suitable
docks for repairing and meeting the requirements of ships in view of
any time of trouble, if we should ever have trouble out in our waters,
though I very much doubt it. I think the settlement of the troubles
of the Empire, whenever they arise, will be far distant from the
colonies. If an opponent of the British Empire wanted to settle the
question of who is to be supreme upon the seas, or who is to take, if
they can, any portion of the British Empire, it is hardly conceivable
that they would come out to our waters to settle questions of that kind,
through New Zealand itself is too valuable to neglect in any way local
defence. I do not want to raise questions which might be looked upon
as troublesome, but we do fear some of the eastern countries, whose
teeming millions, so close to Australia and New Zealand as they are,
under an educational process in the years to come may find the attrac-
tions of our covmtry sufiicient to induce them to give lis some trouble.
I think, in any arrangements wei make with the Admiralty for oiir
defence upon the seas in the common interests of the Empire as a
whole, if we are to make that arrangement of a practical nature and
the people of our country are only too anxious to help — this all-im-
portant question of equipping, maintaining, and providing docks
should be considered upon a practical basis, and the Admiralty itself
might convey to us, for our information, what length of dock for ships
in our waters may in their judgment in the future be required. I may
say that, under the system of constructing harbour board docks in New
Zealand, we would go a long day towards meeting the requirements of
the Admiralty in the different parts of the Colony.
I wish to say one word about this qviestioo of coaling. The New
Zealand Government has seen its responsibilities connected with coal-
ing in our country for a number of years. I think at the moment, in
round figures, we have either provided for or guaranteed the deben-
tures to enable some of our west coast ports in New Zealand to be
first-class coaling places for the purpose of the exportation of coal,
and we have done so to the extent of over half a million of mone.v.
I listened to that portion of the observations of Lord Tweedmouth
with special interest. In our country special facilities at Westport
and Greymouth could be provided of a very satisfactory kind, and
they certainly could be provided in Australia at the Port of New-
castle ; a harbour for tho largest ships in the world could be provided
at a place called Point Elizabclh near Greymouth, and the finest coal
in the world eould there be put aboard ships loading down to any
ordinary draught. If we can arrive, as I hope may be the case, at
some system of meeting the local sentiments of these self-governing
countries as to liow those ships, under the control and disposition of
the Board of Admiralty always, should be equipped and manned, I
think tlie coaling matter is of sufficient importance to enablo us to
probably arrive at a l)asi3 which in the course of a year or so wo might
be able to jnit into practical .'shape. I want to take this opportunity
I
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 139
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of saying to Lord Tweedmouth that the difHculty which has presented ^*^^'^,'^*X'
itself by having two rates of pay on board the ships in our waters is "' 1907^ ' '
one that we cannot lose sight of in considering this matter with a —
view to having it placed upon a better basis. The rates of pay gener- -nlfl^}
ally in the Colonies are higher than they are in the old world. In ,gjj. joggpij
order to meet the natural sentiment of the people there the Admiralty Ward.)
have, with very great consideration, in the past agreed to a dual sys-
tem of pay on board those ships. Under that differentation of pay
there naturally must arise a certain amount of friction and dissatis-
faction, especially on the part of a man who is working side by side
with his fellow on board any of the ships who is receiving a much
lowgr rate of pay than the Australian or New Zealander is. That
statement seems to me to emphasise the great importance and desir-
ability of these vessels being manned entirely, so far as the crews are
concerned, from the Colony itself, and probably a rate of pay could
be fixed by which they could be borne in sufficient numbers to meet
the position now filled by a portion of the men being drawn from the
old land, and a portion from the new land. In any ease, if it cannot
be arranged in the way I am endeavouring to suggest, ISTeiw Zealand
will be quite prepared to have what I know has been talked of and
referred to in despatches, the system of deferred pay for our men put
into operation, so that they may draw the same rate of pay as the
British men on board those vessels until the time came for paying
them off, when that deferred pay would be paid out to them. I need
not. because it must be very familiar to Lord Tweedmouth and those
associated with him, refer to the troubles which arise owing to the
higher class of pay being paid to the men in these plaeee now.
I want to make it clear upon the details of any scheme for the
betterment of the Navy and for the more effective working of it, that
I should be only too glad with my friend Mr. Deakin and any of the
other gentlemen here to have an opportunity of conferring with those
who are responsible and with Lord Tweedmouth, who has made such
valuable suggestions to us to-day.
I will not take up the time of the Conference further at present
upon this matter. I have a great deal of detailed information in my
possession. I hope as the outcome of the Conference that we are hav-
ing with the responsible representatives of the Board of Admiralty
and the British Government here, that if each Colony wishes separate
treatment, as has been referred to by Lord Tweedmouth, we will get it.
I am sure we will be able to arrive at it, while allowing the people of
the respective countries through their Governments to carry out such
a local system as they believe to be best suited to their individual cir-
cumstances. I look forward to the outcome of the discussions which
we are having across this table as going in the direction of enabling
us to join with the Board of Admiralty and the British Government
in helping generally in making our Xavy stronger and better than it
is at present.
Sir WILFRID LAHRIER : Mr. Brodeur will speak for Canada.
Mr. BRODEUE: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, in view of the re-
marks made by Mr. Deakin and Sir Joseph Ward, it will not be neces-
sary for me to-day to state the position which Canada intends to take
in regard to this question of Naval Defence. Our situation is a dif-
ferent one to that of the other Colonies, and should be treated as such.
1 think, however, it would be only fair that I should state to-day that
140
COLONIAL COyPEREKCE. 1907
Fifth Day.
23rd April,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Brodenr.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
the position of Canada has not been properly represented as far as
Naval Defence is concerned. I see by a document which has been
laid before us that we are supposed not to have spent any money at
all upon Naval Defence. That document shows what has been spent
by the United Kingdom, by Newfoundland, Australia, New Zealand,
the Cape, Natal, and when it comes to speak of Canada, it is simply
stated there that the Naval expenditure is none. I may say at the
outset that in view of the Treaty which was made in 1818 between
the Imperial Government and the Government of the United States, it
was formally stipulated that the Americans should have the right to
come and fish on our shores, and that they should have the right also
to come into our harbours when they are looking after their fishing.
Outside of that, they have a right also, in virtue of that Treaty, to
go to some parts of Canada to fish on the same footing as the Cana-
dian British subjects. This particular situation, which was created
in Canada by that Treaty, induced the British Admiralty to look
after the defence, or after the protection of Canada, against the
poaching of these American fishermen. That duty was performed,
and that protection was given to our own people during many years
by the British Admiralty, but for some time, especially since 1885,
absolutely nothing has been done by the British authorities. All
expenditure in connection with that Fisheries Protection Service has
been carried on, incurred, and made by the Canadian Government.
I understand that in England the Fisheries Protection Service is
also under the control of the Admiralty, and all money expended for
that service is found by the Admiralty. I do not know whether, in
the amount which is given in that paper as being the expenditure of
the British Admiralty — 33,000,000Z. — that particular service is in-
cluded or not. I suppose it is.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: The Newfoundland one?
Mr. BRODEUR: No, I meant the Naval expenditure of the
United Kingdom, 33,000,000Z., as the money expended for Naval pur-
poses. I suppose that includes the Fisheries Protection Service too?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Yes, certainly.
Mr. BRODEUR: Of course, we would claim that the same thing
should be done with Canada — that the expenditure that we make for
the Fisheries Protection Service in our country should also be given
as money for, and should be considered as, Naval expenditure.
I must also say that this obligation which we are carrying out to-
day is to a certain extent not simply a local obligation but an Im-
perial obligation, because that obligation was incurred in virtue of
treaties, those treaties having been passed between Great Britain and
the United States without, of course, the consent of Canada. We
are very glad to-day, however, to take upon our shoulders the expendi-
ture in connection with that service. I may say that since 1885 —
since the abrogation of the Washington Treaty — we have spent for
that service 3.147,990 dollars, and last year, 1905-6, wc spent 250,000
dollars. I may say this year the money to be spent will be very much
larger, because we arc going to construct a cruiser which will cost us
about 500,000 dollars, or lOO.OOOZ. As I say, we have been very glad
to take over this service and to relieve the Admiralty of so much.
The same thing has been done with regard to the great lakes and in
connection with the great lakes I might call tho attention of the
Conference to this point. It is not to be siipposoc], I think, that the
Admiralty could do nnvtliinp on the gmnt lakes. It would not be a
COLOSIXL COSFEREXCE. 1001 141
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
very easy thing to do. This service, then should be taken over en- fifth Day.
tirely by the Canadian Government. As a matter of fact, it was done "'^'''^ q^'''^'^'
by the British Government for some time. They had some boats ll
there, but those boats went away, and they were replaced by Canadian Naval
boats. We have to-day on the lakes a boat which is an armed-boat Defence.
which is looking specially after the protection of our fisheries against d-qj '' >
the American fishermen, not only for the carrying out of the local
regulations, but mostly, and I may say almost exclusively, for pre-
venting the Americans from coming and fishing in our waters. We
have on the great lakes (.large seas, properly speaking) American
States bordering those great lakes, and they are having navies of
their own now. I think that three States bordering on the three
great lakes. Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois, are spending not less than
15,000,000 dollars themselves for keeping up a navy on these lakes,
and are drilling their men on the shores of the lakes. Besides, they
have some ships which are not armed — becausf it would be against
the provisions of the treaty — but built in order to be prepared in
case of emergency. As far as Canada is concerned, one of the first
duties we shall have to look after is our protection in connection with
the great lakes. I may say that the wars we have had since 1763,
since Canada has become part of the British Empire, came from the
United States. We had an invasion in 1775, we had an invasion in
1812, and we had the Fenian Eaids in the Sixties. All those invas-
ions came from the United States. So we have to look specially to
protect ourselves in that direction, and I may say we have been doing
it as far as the great lakes are concerned, not to a very large extent
it is true, but to the extent of spending a sum of money which is
quite important for a country of the size of ours.
Now with regard to our Naval Militia, which comes under my
Department, we have been, as I said, spending some money for the
Fisheries Protection Service, and carrying out in that way not only
some local self-defence, but also Imperial obligations, and I am sure
we have been very glad to do it, and are glad to continue to do it. We
established a couple of years ago a cruiser for Canada which is man-
ned entirely by Canadian seamen. Those men are now drilling every
day. We have a certain number of young men on that boat driUiiig
every day and taking exercise?, and acquiring knowledge in connec-
tion with Naval matters.
I may say also in connection with that that we have been assum-
ing some parts of the work which was done previously by the Admir-
alty not only in connection with the Fisheries Protection Service and
Naval Militia, but also in regard to certain other matters. We have
established wireless telegraphic stations. Several of them have been
established on the Atlantic coast, and we are now imder contract to
establish some others on the Pacific coast. We have been asked by
the Admiralty authorities to consult with them with regard to the
communications of those different stations. We have been very glad
to do it, and since we received that communication from the British
authorities we have not established any of these wireless telegraphic
stations without consulting with the British Admiralty. Those ser-
vices are costing also a great deal of money, and are not included in
the amount of money which has been given as our part of our Naval
expenditure, though I suppose that the expenditure made in connec-
tion with wireless telegraphy in England is also under the control of
the British Admiralty, and is included in the amount which is given
here.
142
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
Fifth Da
23id Api-
1907
il.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Biodeui .
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
We have taken over also the Hydrographic Survey, and we are to-
day extending the Hydrographic Survey. We have engaged the
services of a naval officer of the British Admiralty for the purpose
of making our Hydrographic Survey. We are building a boat on the
Pacific coast for that purpose also and we have two boats now
engaged on that service on the Atlantic coast. I know that the
British Admiralty have some two boats; I think one in the Atlantic
Ocean and the other in the Pacific Ocean, now making some hydro-
graphical surveys. We are ready to take over this service at any time
the British Admiralty would like us to do that work.
We have taken over, or are going to take over, the Halifax and
Esquimalt Dockyards — in fact, we are in possession already, from the
1st January, of the Halifax Dockyards. I do not know exactly how
much those dockyards were costing the British Admiralty — or the one
at Halifax, but I may say we have asumed all the obligations in con-
nection with those doq)£yards, and we have provided specially that the
amount which the British Admiralty was to pay as an annual sub-
scription to the graving dock at Halifax would be paid by us instead
of by thq British Admiralty. We have, as I have said, provided for
the establishment of docks at Halifax and Esquimalt, so I think it
would be only fair that in the statements published giving the monies
spent for naval expenditure, the amount spent by the Canadian Gov-
ernment in connection with those different Services I have just men-
tioned should be included in such Naval expenditure.
I do not think for a moment it will be necessary for me to discuss
the question further, because I understand the discussion will be taken
up on some other day.
Dr. JAMESON : I will ask Dr. Smartt to speak for Cape Colony.
Dr. SMARTT : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen,— I think that, as the
result of the interview which Lord Tweeimouth was kind enough to
grant to Mr. Moor and myself with regard to the naval defence of
South Africa, he is thoroughly in possession of the views of the Cape ;
and I therefore listened with all the more pleasure to the clear state-
ment made by him and the eixpress statement that the Admiralty
would view, in the most sympathetic manner, any proposition coming
from any self-governing portion of the Empire with a view to im-
proving the naval resources.
Now I can thoroughly understand tlie position taken up by Canada's
representative, which is, to a certain extent, moving in the direction
laid down by Lord Twecdmouth as one of the express lines of policy
desired by the Admiralty. Canada, it is stated, is doing a great deal
in the direction of improving her harbours, which harbours would not
only be of assistance to horself, but also to the Admiralty in time of
trouble. But I think a great deal of the expenditure referred to in
connection with what might be described as the policing of the seas
with the view of protecting their Fisheries, is similar to that made
(perhaps in a much heavier way) by the Cape Colony and Natal in
connection with the forces which, owing to the large native popula-
tion, it is necessary to maintain and which is not tlio case in nihcr
Colonies. But, Lord Elgin — I do not think the people of Cnpe Colony
would for one moment dosiri' to raise that as an argmncnt to prevent
our meeting the legitimate obligation that rests upon us as a portion
of the Empire in assisting (Jreat Britain in her naval defence, and I
think ilr. iloor will say the same of tlie people of Natal. Lord Tweed-
I
COLONIAL COXFERENGE, 1907 143
SESSIONAL PAPZR No. 5C
jinouth has told us of the enormous work done by the Navy. I think Fifth Day.
that is recognised by every portion of the Empire; and while we are " jp^;^"^'''
pleased to hear of the magnificent position in which Lord Tweedmouth
and his responsible advisers consider the Navy to be, we in the out- Naval
lying portions of the Empire, recognising, as was laid down by Mr. « ence.
Haldane in his statement on Military Defence the other day, that the Sniartt.)
first line of defence is the Navy, and that, if that line of defence is
broken through, the whole fabric of the Empire will crumble to pieces,
are prepared to recognise that we should do everything, with the assist-
ance of the Admiralty, to try and make that first line of defence, if
possible, still stronger than it is at present.
On behalf of Cape Colony, I at once acknowledge that the contri-
bution that we give at the present moment is not adequate to our
position, and is not adequate to the services that the Navy renders to
us. We are now trying to do something to infuse a spirit of enthus-
iasm into our young men to come forward and enrol themselves in a
corps of Naval Volunteers, and I trust the Admiralty will meet that
corps by allowing it to be established as a force not of Naval volun-
teers but of Eoyal Naval Volunteers. I am able to state that it is the
intention of the Government to introduce a Bill into Parliament next
session whereby every meimber of that Naval Volunteer force will
enrol not only for service in local waters, but for service in any part of
the world that the British Admiralty might consider such service noc-
cessary should a period of danger unfortunately arise. We, to be
able to keep up the necessary spirit of enthusiasm in a force of this
sort, must have some means of giving them practical training ; and I
gather from what Lord Tweedmouth has said that the Admiralty will
be prepared to treat sympathetically every portion of the Empire on a
basis best suited to its individual requirements, and further will be
prepared to do what would be very acceptable to that Cape ; that is,
allow us to take over a small ship, necessary for the training of these
men, and, until other arrangements can be made, to devote to the \ip-
keep of that ship a certain portion of the grant that the Cape and
Natal now gives towards the British Navy.
I also fully agree, and am perfectly certain that the people at the
Cape will agree, in the necessity of assisting the Admiralty, that we
outlying portions of the Empire should provide small craft, such as
submarines and torpedo-boats, not alone for the defence of our shores,
but to be joined on to any squadrou sent from Great Britain in
periods of great emergency, it being a great diiEculty, or almost im-
possible, to send torpedo craft many thousands of miles to sea. As
the Admiralty say they would welcome a departure of that sort, I
think the people at the Cape, knowing that they were really funda-
mentally assisting in building up the Navy, would, when times im-
prove, be prepared to increase their contribution ; and I also presume
that that would be the position of Natal. I hope that we woiild be
joined in that position — especially as the spirit of federation is now
so strongly evident in South Africa — by the inland States, that is the
Transvaal, the Orange River Colony, and perhaps Rhodesia. I think
everybody recognises the burden upon the British taxpayer. I should
think at the present moment, Lord Tweedmouth, that the Admiralty
is taking out of the general taxation of Great Britain something over
20Z. out of c|very 100/. for the up-keep of the Navy. Tou are paying
roughly, I suppose, 15s. or 16s. per head of your population. Well,
in comparison with that, look at the contribution of the Cape — (50,-
144
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Fifth Day.
23rd April,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
1 7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
000?. a year), and the contributions of the other portions of the Em-
pire towards the up-keep of the Xavy. It is about a sovereign, per-
haps, out of every lOOZ. of the general revenue. We must recognise
that while it is of the first importance to Great Britain to protect her
enormous over-sea trade, it is also of equal importance to South
Africa, and to the other portions of the British Empire, to protect
their trade over the seas — which is of as great importance to them as
the trade of Great Britain is to her. If the Admiralty would work
out a scheme and discuss it with us, we would be prepared to see how
far we could work up in that direction, so that our contribution would
be of the greatest possible assistance to the Admiralty ; and the assist-
ance in this direction would naturally appeal much more forcibly to
the people and give them a stronger individual interest in the fleet
than simply a monetary contribution would do.
With regard to docks : that is also a matter in which we could
assist, but I would like to point out that as these docks would not
alone be used for commercial purposes, but also for naval purposes in
time of war, they would be practically useless if they were not ade-
quately defended. Another matter on which we would like to have
the advice and assistance of the Admiralty, is as to the character of
the defences in such an important strategical portion of the Empire
as Cape Colony, because, if we find that it is necessary, as we think
it is, to improve those defences, we would be quite prepared to discuss
what our proportion of the contribution towards the improvement of
those defences should be. Lord Tweedmouth has told us that the
Admiralty are increasing their dock accommodation, and that there
are already some thirteen docks that will take in ships of war even of
the size of the " Dreadnought," and that one of those docks is, I
believe, Simonstown. Now I presume that, from an Admiralty
point of view, it is not alone the question of the size of the dock
to accommodate a ship of a certain tonnage, but the question of a
ship being able to get into that dock under aU conditions of wea-
ther. I would like to be assured by the Admiralty on this point
as to the docks at Simonstown. The advice I have is that, as the
Simonstown Docks have been constructed, at the present moment
in the prevailing winds at certain seasons of the year (that is during
periods of howling south-easters) it might be very difficult for a
ship to get into the Simonstown Docks. I would like to be assured
that the necessary works to allow that to take place are under
contemplation by the Admiralty, because to have a dock which
you are not able to use in all weathers (especially in time of war)
to my mind, detracts enormously from the value of that dock; and I
hope that this is a point that the Admiralty will fully consider be-
fore it is too late and the Simonstown Docks are fully completed.
Before we return, wc hope that, with the advice and assistance of
the Admiralty, we shall lie able to devise some scheme whereby our
Naval Volunteers will be established and strengthened in number,
in conjunction with Natal; and also that the Admiralty will advise
us as to what is the best manner in which we can move on the lines
of the policy laid down by the Admiralty. I think the people of the
Colony would welcome a departure of that sort, and I believe would
recognise that, if further contributions in such a direction were
necessary, they would be willingly met by the Colony.
Sir ROBERT BOND: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen.— For mora
than 400 vears the Fisheries in Newfoundland have been a recruiting
COLONIAL CO\FEI{ENCE. 1907 145
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ground for the British Navy. It is so to-day. It may be so to a far Fifth Day.
grreatcr extent in future than it is at present, for there are some "^'^'iq^J"^'''
60,000 fi.slicnnen engaged in that Colony of a physique developed by L
their avocation, which makes them most suitable for His Majestjr's Naval
Navy. Defence.
In 1902 I entered into an agreement with the Admiralty, on be- ^^'Bo^d.^^"^'
half of my Colony, in the matter of the establishment of a Naval
Reserve, which should be liable for service, if found to be necessary,
beyond the limits of the Colony and in any part of the Empire. Up
to the present time it has been a very marked success indeed. On the
roll there are now some 590 men who have distinguished themselves
in His llajesty's Service, according to the reports of the Commodores
upon that station. Any large contribution that the Colony may give
in the future must be in the direction of the service of such mejn.
This is necessarily so because while the Colony that I j-epresf nt is
not like that of my friend, Sir Joseph Ward, a new Colony, for on
the contrary, it is England's most ancient Colony, still the conditions
that apply there at the present time are almost identical with those
that have been pourtrayed by Sir Joseph Ward. The Colony for the
most part is an undeveloped one. The expenditure necessary for its
development must come from the resources of the Colony. We stand
in an exceptional position amongst all other Colonies of the Empire,
I think, in that we have not received any assistance from His Ma-
jesty's Government — money assistance, I mean — in the direction of
promoting the industries or the development of the Colony. Yet at
the present time the Government owns some 700 miles of railway,
nearly L.'iOO miles of telegraph. 300 miles of cable which connect the
Colony with the neighbouring continent, and a dock which up to a
very recent date was pronoimced to be one the finest in British North
America. All these great undertakings have come out of the funds
of the Colony itself. In the future. I take it, we shall have to look
to our own resources, and such being the case, as I mentioned a
moment ago, any large money consideration or contribution towards
the Navy can hardly be expected from the colony of Newfoundland.
There is a matter that I am pleased my friend the Canadian
Minister of Marine has touched upon, namely, the expenditure inci-
dent to the policing of the waters consequent upon treaties entered
into many years ago by His Majesty's Government with certain for-
eign nations. Wliile the liability of expenditure to which my friend
the Canadian Minister referred only applies to the Americans in his
case, we have a further obligation in the Colony of Newfoundland,
inasmuch as by virtue of a treaty entered into with France many
years ago, she occupies St. Pierre and Miquelon islands off our south
coast, which are a continual menace to our revenue. Wliat I mean
is this, that system of smuggling has been carried on from St. Pierre
for a number of years. We have estimated the loss to ovir revenue
at something like 150,000 to 160,000 dollars a year. We have to
police — at ver.v considerable expense to our revenue — the waters of
the south coast in the neighbourhood of St. Pierre and Miquelon.
We also have to police our waters right around the whole coast line
of nearly 4,000 miles to protect our fisheries and protect our revenues
from encroachment at the hands of the American fishermen. My
friend, the Canadian Minister of Marine and Fisheries, has con-
tended, T think, with very much force and veiy much justice to his
Colony, that the expenditure incident to that protection service ought
to appear really as a contribution from his Colony towards Naval
58—10
146
COLOM.IL COypEREXCE, I'JUl
Fifth Dav.
23rd April,
1997.
Naval
Defence.
(Sir Robert
Bond.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Defence, because unless the Colony provided that protection service
itself I take it it would be regarded by His Majesty's Government as
a duty incumbent upon itself to supply such protection, inasmuch a&
the necessity is one that the Colony can hardly be held responsible for.
The argument applies with greater force in the case of Xewfoundland.
The treaties are of old standing, namely, that of 1818 with the Ameri-
cans, and the Treaty of Utrecht with France more than a hundred
years older. They were made without the consent of the Colonies by
the Imperial Government in the interests of the Empire. Therefore
I respectfully submit that the expenditure that the Colony is called
upon to make for fishery portection service by reason of those treaties
might be properly regarded as a contribution toward naval expendi-
ture.
Under the agreement that was entered into in 1902, to which I
have made reference, the liability of the Colony is to the extent of 51.
sterling per head for every man recruited in the island. Ilis Majesty'^
Government assuming the whole of the balance of the expenditure in
connection therewith. The arrangement that was made having work-
ed out entirely satisfactorily to the Colony, and I believe, entirely
satisfactorily to His Majesty's Government, I assume there is no
reason for any revision of the agreement that is existing.
I have only to add that I shall be pleased to recommend to my
Government a further increase to the amount that is at present be-
ing contributed if it is deemed desirable by His Majesty's Govern-
ment to increase the number of reservists in the Colony. I will go
so far as to say that we would assume double our present liability
upon the same basis as that set forth in the existing agreement.
With regard to the mattex of dock provision. The Colony built a
dock some years ago, at a cost of some (loO.OOO dollars, and it is re-
garded as one of the largest docks, if not the best, in British North
America.
With respect to coaling facilities for His Majesty's Na^-y the
Colony at the present time is expending a very considerable annual
amount in developing the coal measures, which not only exist on the
south west coast of Newfoundland, but also in the interior of the is-
land, and it is hoped that these deposits will be such as to warrant
Hs in going much further than wa have gone up to the present time,
and at no distant date offer facilities for naval supplies. The coal is
of excellent quality.
We are also encouraging the dcvclo]ini('nt of the petroleum areas of
the west coast. When I was in England in IUO.t the Admiralty com-
■municated with me in respect to the petroleum areas of the west coast,
and showed very great interest indeed in the possibilities of that
c(nnitry. Mr. Prrtyman, who was at that time Parliamentary Secre-
tary to the Admiralty, assured me that the matter was of special in-
terest to his Department, and expressed a hope that the Government
of tiie Colony would do what it could to aid in the dcvolopment of
those deposit.s. That we have done, and tliat we are still continuing,
and I ho]ie the efforts in this direction may yet result in lieing of
material advantage to His Majesty's Navy.
I have nothing further to add at i)resent.
.Mr. I''. U. MOOR : Lord Elgin and gentlemen. — T have to thank
Lord TweediuDUtli for the clear way in which he has laid big ))roblem3
bcfiirc lis this iiKiriiiiig. and I have also to thank liiiu on behalf of
Natal for the sympathetic way in which he seems to have met both the-
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 147
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Capo Colony and the Colony T roprosmt in the flircetion we have been Fifth Day.
indicniina' to hini at a ooiiforonoe that Dr. Smartt lias already referred " ,„«-P'" '
to.
We feel that in South Africa individual Colonies, divided as they ^^J*^^'
are at present, arc not sutlicicntly stronff to do all that they should be
Defence.
(Mr F R
doins towards helping' the British Xavy, and as far as the Cape and Moor.)
Natal aro conecrned, having duly talked the matter over, we feel we
might more adequately assist if we had some kind of union together
with the advice and the assistance of the Imperial Government. Our
idea is that being njore or less in union with each other, we shall have
better results, and will be able to have more scope for the movement
we are trying to promote in these Colonies. For some years in Natal,
and I believe also in Cape Colony — in fact I know it is so— we have
had a movement there started, so far as Natal is concerned, by the
late ilr. Harry Eseoinbe. who was one of the best public men we ever
had in the Colony, to promote a spirit of assistance towards the Im-
perial Government in regard to harbour matters and the building up
of the Naval Reserve. He, my Lord, was the father of the corps that
we now have in Durban, known as the Naval Reserve Corps. This
corps has done admirably, is very enthusiastic, has been in the field on
several occasions, and took a most prominent part in the late outbreak
that we had there — the rebellion. But this corps is more or less dying
of inanition, becaiise it feels that it is not having recognition as re-
gards its value or its services in a direction that it is essentially or-
ganised for, that is, with regard to its naval training. We cannot
give that naval training or promote any further that spirit of assist-
ance unless we have the assistance of the Admiralty. And, as already
indicated by Dr. Smartt, it did occur to us that if the Admiralty could .
help us with a ship we might be able to utilise the scr\-ices of these
men with the ship, as between different ports on our coast, and give
these men the sea training which is so essential not only for their use,
but in keeping alive the movement. I would bring the movement
closely in evidence; it would bring it to the notice not only of thepe
men but to the notice of the Colony, and would raise a spirit of en-
thusiasm which we cannot hope for unless we do have something of
that sort.
From the statement we have had this morning it seems that the
Adiniraltj' is realising there may now come about a new departure
with regard to the defence of these outlying portions of the Empire,
that is in the direction of the utilising of smaller craft. These scien-
tific craft are highly technical, I take it, but they could be used in our
waters very etfectively, not only in the event of war, but in the mean-
while for the training of our local people, and also as one of the best
means for repelling any threatened attack by a cruiser or any ships
an enemy might put round our coast, and deterring perhaps, the at-
tack from being delivered.
That being the case, I feel that I should put myself here entirely
in the hands of the Admiralty and the Home Government as regards
advice. We are here to learn, to exchange ideas with yoTi, and where
possible to give you every assistance in our power, and if our first
crude idea is not one that commends itself as the most efficient to the
Admiralty, b,v all means let us take advice, and I promise that we
will do our best to forward the movement that Lord Tweedmouth has
indicated to us this morning.
I can only say this, that as regards our local defences we are trying
58— lOj
148
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Fifth Day.
23rd April,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr. F. E.
Moor.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
to do our best, ify little colony has just spent some 700,000?. or 800,-
000?. of money in quelling a rebellion among the natives. That is a
danger we all of us in South Africa have to face, and I think we do
fully realise that we have to face that in the future and we have to
provide eiEcient men and means for being able to govern these people
without looking to the Home Government. Putting it against the
arguments that have been adduced by the representatives of Canada,
and also the last speaker. Sir Eobert Bond, I do humbly submit that it
is a set off to the arguments that have been adduced as regards polic-
ing their waters. We have in I^atal made and wrenched from the re-
luctant hands of nature one of the finest harbours in the southern
hemisphere and it has cost us millions of money to do it. That har-
bour to-day is at the disposal of the British Na^•y, with all its furni-
ture and all its conveniences, and all we ask of you is to advise us how
to turn those facilities, that we have carried out entirely at our own
expense, to the greatest advantage for the common good. I do not say
it with the idea of trespassing on the claims of my sister colonies in
South Africa, but we have the finest coal that has yet been discovered
in South Africa. That coal is available in any quantity that you
may desire at our harbours, and we are providing these facilities for
handling it and for getting it into depots as may be desired in the
interests of its use not only commercially but for defensive purposes.
I feel that this contribution we are now giving in money would be
pci-h.ips more advantageously spent if it was more in the direction of
ven and material — a direction that would appeal to the people, so that
they would have evidence that it was really a living organism which
we had started and it would encourage them to go on with the good
work. With regard to what Dr. Smartt has said as regards increasing
the contribution, when the time comes that we can afford it, and when
we have, as T hope we shall have, the federation of our Colonies an
accomplished fact, I do trust that we will be able to increase our con-
tribution. But I do trust also that the Admiralty will meet us in
getting that contribution made more in the direction which I have
tried to indicate than by simply a cold lump sum, voted on our esti-
mate, for which We have no actual evidence as directly concerning
the people wo represent.
I have nothing more to add, only I wish to emphasise that I do
thank Lord Tweedmouth for the kind way in which he is trying to
meet our views, and I hope that with the advice of the Admiralty
some good will come out of the movement we are attempting to ad-
vance.
General BOTHA : Lord Elgin and Gentlemen, the Transvaal is in
a unique position with regard to this question. We are inland and
we have absolutely no harbour. I was nearly going to say our friends
in the Mother Country always kept us well away from the sea.
I have gone through this Statement, and the 177,000?. that is our
expenditure in the Transvaal only indicates the sum we spend on
volunteers. But there is another force in the Transvaal on which
we spend a big sum of money. This is a force that was brought into
existence after the war, and which is there still. It is the South
African Constabulary, and that body costs the Transvaal about a
million pounds every year, so that our expenditure is really very much
more than would appear from this Statement.
On the item of expenditure on the Navy we figure as nil, but the
question arises witli me whether it would bo practicable to give a sum
COLOXJAL CO\FEREyCE, 1907
149
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of money. I think the best way in which w^at present in the Trans-
vaal can assist the British Empire in general is to get the Transvaal
to unite with the rest of South Africa in a practical way on the
question of defence. The position is to-day that although we are
spending very much money we practically have no reliable defence in
the Transvaal. And we notice especially with regard to the recent
rebollion in Natal that we are not sufficiently prepared for all con-
tingencies. In South Africa we have a situation which may become
a very serious one and a menace to our position, and if we do not
set to work very carefully there, we run the risk that one day possibly
half of the white population may be mown down without our being
in a position to help them. Bearing this in mind, my opinion is that
we should federate, at any rate with a view to defence, in order to
remove the possibility of such a danger. I have not had the oppor-
tunity of discussing the question of a naval contribution or aiding
the British Navy with my Government, and still less with the Parlia-
ment of the Transvaal, but what I have in my mind's eye to propose
is a system of defence for the whole of South Africa, and if the
Parliament of the Mother Country thinks we can aid the Empire in
that respect, we shall be prepared to spend a large sum of money for
that object. I think that at present we are so constituted in the
Transvaal that we shall find it difficult to make a contribution to the
Navy by way of a money payment.
CHAIEMAN: Gentlemen, the First Lord of the Admiralty^
would like to say a few words in reply to the observations which have
been made, but I think that he agrees that effect must be given to
the request of Mr. Deakin, who has been called away by another en-
gagement, that there should be another opportunity of resuming the
discussion later; therefore I propose to ask Lord Tweedmcmth to
make his reply now. and I will make a suggestion with regard to the
resumption of the debate when I mention the other arrangements at
the conclusion of the meeting.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen. I think
that the general discussion and the expressions of opinion on the part
of the Prime Ministers who have spoken is very satisfactory. I
think they form a good basis for an eventual agreement on the lines
which I have ventiired to foreshadow. Of course it is impossible to
settle details now and here. I hope that some of the Prime ^Ministers
and their friends will come and talk over that question with me as to
how the wants of each particular Colony may be met in the sort of
way that I have roughly suggested.
There are just two or three points that I think I ought to allude
to. The first is the question of manning, which is a very important
one. The present view of the Admiralty undoubtedly is. after very
careful consideration of the whole subject, that the couditions of
modern war probably would lead rather to the loss of the ships than of
men; that the results of the Japanese War and other experience
have shown that the loss is rather one of ships than of the men who
are on board those ships ; that there is always a considerable num-
ber of men saved even if a ship is lost, and that the loss of men in a
naval battle is small in proportion to the loss of men on land. That
must always be remembered. So that what we may naturally expect
is that as a war goes on and we are subject to the casualties of war
we shall find that we have a number of men at our disposal, whose
Fifth Day.
i3id April,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(General
Botha.)
ISO
CULUXJAL COM-'EREXCE, 1901
Fifth Day.
23rd April,
1%7.
Naval
Defence.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ships perhaps have either been damaged or lost, to use ou board other
sliips.
Another point that I should like to remind you of is the long time
under modern conditions that it takes to train a man properly to do
his work efficiently on one of these great modern battleships. I think
I am not exaggerating in the least when I say that for the higher
ratings on board ship certainly six years are taken to train a man to
do his work properly. The higher ratings now in the Navy are really
trained and skilful mechanics, and they are only able to take the
duties of those ratings and to undertake the machinery, gunnery,
torpedo, and other work of that sort. Untrained men are useless for
that work, and therefore we are bound to have men who have gone
through a long and careful training.
Then it is the same thing, to a still greater extent perhaps, as
regards the officers. I do not consider that an officer really can start
on his career now on less than eight years" training. Of course, we
take them very young — at 13 now — and by the time they are 21 or 22
they become lieutenants, but even then I do not for a moment suggest
that they are fully capable of discharging all the important work that
has to be done by officers. This, however, I can say with the greatest
confidence, that you may have the most magnificent ships, guns,
armour, and everything else, but if the human element is not very
properly trained, your guns, your armour, and your ships are abso-
lutely useless. The whole history of our Navy shows that the self-
sacrifice and endurance of British sailors has been be.vond compare,
and I believe at this moment they have reached a higher state of
efficiency than has ever been known before in the history of our
country. I make that remark, because I think it is only fair to warn
the Conference that the admission of an unlimited number of men
to the Xaval Service is in practice impossible. I mean we should
have nothing for them to do. We should not be able to employ them.
Then there is a point which has been alluded to more than once
by speakers, and that is the question of the distribution of ships.
At this moment no doubt we are under certain obligations with regard
to Australia as to the ships that are to be on that particular station.
If, in future, as I hope will be the case, there will he greater concen-
tration of the ships, T want it to be ver.v distinctly understood that I
do not believe that our dominions beyond the seas would suffer in
any wa.y from such an arrangement. Thc.v woidd not even suffer in
the show made by British ships in Colonial waters, because though it
may be perfectl.v true that vessels may not be so frequently on the
station, yet, as I believe, ftitvire developments will lead to the Colonies
not having the secondary or not quite the best of the ships, but they
would see the big battleships and cruisers from time to time. This
would really give a much greater show and give the Colonies a much
better idea of what the British Navy is than the ships that they have
now stationed permanently iu their waters. That has been undoubt-
edl.v the case in the Nortliern TTemispliere since the concentration of
the Fleet in Tlonie waters. The visits made by squadrons to foreign
powers and foreign cities have been much more impressive, much
more frequent, and much more useful than they would be if onl.v
comparatively few ships were sent at a time to particular foreign
ports.
Sir Joseph Ward referred to the qtiestion of pay. That is a ver.v
important one. Tt is quite tr\ie that we have had trouble from the
fact of the Colonial men serving at a higher rate of pay than our own
COLOXIAI. C'OyFERESCE. 1907 151
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Britisli sailors. I think it was inevitable, and of course we must try Fifth Day.
to make as good iin iirraiigement as possible for mitigating the evils i^-P '
of tlie system. At the pie.~ent moment in Australia the pay is not paid
direotlv to the men on board ship, but is paid to them through the ^^^^^
Post Office on land, the idea being that they woidd leave their money ,j ,' ■
in the Post Oftieo and would not spend it with their British comrades Tweed-
wliilst they were on board ship. As a matter of fact I think that idea mouth.)
has proved false. I have the figures here, which are very curious. In
Australia, out of 32,300Z. paid to the Savings Bank since the beginning
of the agreement— that is up to the SOth June, 1906 — only 2,800/. has
remained in the Savings Bank, showing that the men have drawn out
The money at once, and have expended it whilst they were on service
in British ships. Therefore, they were living and are living at a
higher rate than their British comrades on board the ships, and thejy
spend their money on various things, clothes, or food, or one thing
and another. They do live on a different scale and in a different man-
ner to the British sailors who are serving alongside them, which leads,
no doubt, to difficulty. I think that is an unfortunate thing, and what
I slioidd suggest would be that in those cases we should adopt a systefm
of deferred pay, so that the Colonial sailor shoidd not be paid his
extra pay till he has fulfilled his time of service. Wlien his time of
service expired, then he would receive the whole payment due to him
for the whole service, and would have a considerable sum with which
to go away from the ship, and he could use it on land for some reall.v
useful purpose rather than fritter it away in having a good time on
board ship.
Sir WILLIAM! LYXE : Is it not possible that that money was
<irawn out of the Savings Bank to support wives or parents on shore?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : Of course that may be so.
Sir WILLIAM LYXE : I think that most likely accounts for a
portion of it. •
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : I am afraid a good deal of it is spent by
the men on board. I quite admit Sir William Lyne's point is a good
one, and no doubt an arrangement ought to be made to enable them to
transfer money to those belonging to them, and the people they have to
support while they are on board ship.
I ought to say that we here make no sort of reflection on Canada,
and we do not for a moment accept the criticism to which Mr. Brodeur
'referred. We hold that Canada is perfectly free to come to any
resolution. We hope to have their help, hut still they are quite right
to look after their own interests, in the full security that so far as the
British Government can be of use to them in their defence in time
of need, they may depend in any circumstances on our giving that aid
with the greatest joy and without any sort of drawback whatever.
Dr. Smartt made a great point that the Xaval Volunteers should
receive the title of " Royal." That depends, I think, chiefly on the
local legislature passing a Bill registering the Xaval Volunteers as a
regular force. I think as soon as that Bill has passed through the
Cape Legislature there will be no difficulty in their coming imder the
title of " Royal."
With regard to the point raised as to the dock at Simon's Bay, I
will discuss it with the Hydrographer at the Admiralty and see what
truth there may be in that allegation that the dock at Simon's Bay is
COLONIAL COyFERENCE. 1901
Naval
Defence.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifth Day. not accessible in certain winds. I fancy there is some question of a
^^"■•^ig^^P"^' breakwater to be added.
Dr. SMARTT : What I gather from seamen who know that coast
is that in a howling south-easter, which very often blows for two or
three days, the sweep of the wind playing on the entrance to the dock
might make it unsafe for a battleship or cruiser to enter. I under-
stand that that could be remedied by an expenditure of a not very
large amount of money.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : I believe there has been some additional
breakwater contemplated.
Dr. SMARTT : I believe so.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: I do not know the details of it, but I
must get it from the Hydrographer.
Dr. JAMESON: Practically the extra expenditure necessary
would be 50,000/. or 60,000L
Dr. SMARTT : Say 60,000/. or 70,000/. to make it complete.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Then Sir Robert Bond referred to the
Newfoundland Naval Reserve men. Tour Chairman and I saw a
squadron of them in this very quadrangle last summer, and we were
struck by the smartness of the men, and we had a most excellent re-
port of the service they do. We are very pleased to have the help of
these men who are trained to the sea and who must be, and are, most
eificient fellows, and of course we shall be glad to consider Sir Robert
Bond's suggestion that there niiglit be a possibility of some addition
to these reservists.
The same remark that I made to Dr. Smartt applies to what Mr.
Moor said about the Natal Naval Corps. They have not been regis-
tered as naval volunteers. It would Be necessary to have a Bill passed
in the local legislature before that is doue. At this moment I think
from the reports I have received that the Natal Naval Corps is prac-
tically used as a sort of garrison artillery; that they do not at all
train at sea; that they have some considerable guns under their
charge — four 6-inch breech-loading guns, one 12-pounder quick-firing
gun, two '45 Maxim guns, and two quick-firing Hotchkiss guns. In
the last defence scheme, this body is to take charge of the guns in case
of war or any attack as I understand. That I believe is the last
arrangement under the Defence Committee.
I quite recognise that General Botha is in rather a different posi-
tion from the other Prime ilinisters, and, of course, the case of the
Transvaal is quite different, in having no coast at all. Still, we shall
welcome any help that General Botha may be able to give after con-
sultation with his government and his Parliament to the general
Naval Defence of South Africa. I am sure anything of that sort
would greatly liolj) what, I liopo, may very soon come about — the
federation of all tlio different Colonies now existing in South Africa.
All I can say is, thaf I shall be only too glad to confer with any
members of the Conference who may wish to go into greater detail
with regard to the arrangements that can l>e made under the sugges-
tions that I have made to-day, and then I think if we had another
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
153
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
talk at the Conference after that, we might, perhaps, come to some Fifth Day.
defined resolution on the subject. ^'^\m^"^'
CHAIRMAN: I think my best plan is to move the adjournment Naval
of this debate. Defence.
It was arranged at the last meeting that Emigration should be
taken on Thursday at 11. We might, perhaps, also put on the agenda
Naturalisation as another subject, in the hope that we might reach
it. The Home Secretary, who will deal with that subject, would be
able to attend.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
Adjourned to Thursday next at 11 o'clock.
154 COLOMA.L COXFEREXCE. 1907
Sixth Day. SIXTH DAT.
25th April,
^^^- Held \t the Coloxul Office, Downing Street,
Thursday, 25th April, 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EAEL OF ELGEST, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Eight Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Bordek, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakix, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
I^^ew Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B.. Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt. Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Eight Honourable Sir E. Bond, K.C.M.G.. Prime Minister
of Newfoundland.
The Honourable F. E. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Fr.\xcis Hop'wood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G.. Permanent Under-Sec-
retary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G.. K.C.I.E., on behalf of the Indian
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,
Mr. G. W. Johnson. C.M.G.,
Joint Secretaries.
ilr. W. A. EoBixsoN,
Assistant Secretary.
Also Present:
The Right Honourable Herbert Gladstone, M.P., Home Secre-
tary.
The Eight Honourable John Burns, M.P.. President of the Local
Government Board.
Sir D. ir. Chambers. K.C.B.. Permanont Under-Secretary of
State, Home Office.
Mr. C. P. Luc.\s, C. B., Assistant Under-Secretary of State for the
Colonies.
Mr. H. Bertram Cox, C.B., Assistant Under-Secretary of State
for the Colonies,
^fr. .T. PF.nDER. TTonio Office.
^Ir. II. Ti\MnKRT, of the Colonial Office and Emigrants' Informa-
tion Office.
coi.tixni. rnxFEREXCE. 1007 155
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
EMIGRATION. Sixth Day.
25th April,
CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, we are to proceed to-day with the ^^^~-
consideration of the subject of emigration, which is a subject which, Emigration.
I think, has already received considerable attention both in the Colon-
ies and in this country. If I understand rightly, the Canadian Gov-
ernment have their own system for dealing- with this question. The
Australian and New Zealand Governments have also, I think, had
it under consideration. As regards ourselves in this country, we have
had an inquiry by a very competent Committee, on which Colonial
opinion, I think I may say, was represented, because the Chairman
was Lord Tennyson, and the Report of that Committee, and the evi-
dence has been forwarded to the Governments of the Colonies for
their consideration. I therefore think that we may, v'erhajjs, conie
more directly to a specitic point on this question than, perhaps, on
some other subjects which have been before us, for in the despatch
from this Office forwarding these papers to which I have referred, the
third paragraph drew the attention of the other Governments to the
question of whether or not they were willing to accept state-aided
emigration. I explained that for my colleagues and myself we would
wish to be assured on this point before considering the matter from
the point of view of the Mother Countr.y. I would suggest, there-
fore, that in the discussion which is now to open, that the particular
point might be borne in mind 'specially. My Right Honourable
friend, the President of the Local Government Board, after hearing
the views to be expressed by the other members of the Conference,
would be prepared to state his opinion upon that and other points
connected with this subject. I therefore, invite the other members
of the Conference to proceed to discuss the question from that
standpoint.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I suppose, my Lord, it would be
natural we should first hear the views of the Colony of Australia
which has brought this matter to the attention of the Conference.
CHAIRMAN : Yes. I omitted to say that one resolution sub-
mitted is by the Commonwealth.
Mr. DEAKIN: My Lord and gentlemen, in 'touching upon this
q\iestion my first dvity is to remove an apparent misapprehension.
The question of immigration to us is the question of emigration from
you. The question of emigration is as distinctly a British question
as that of immigration is ours. To what extent the Government and
Parliament of Great Britain desire to foster emigration is for them
to discuss and decide. I shall therefore look at immigration from
our point of view, and not from the point of view of the Mother
Country, because upon that the representatives of the people of that
country are necessarily themselves the judges. Any remarks, there-
fore, which I may make in regard to our desire for immigration are
subject, of course, to that necessary preliminary qualification. One
aspect we necessarily must leave in your hands, as it pertains to
you and to you alone.
We commence, with the fact that there is an emigration from
this country. Whether that be stimulated by the Government or
retarded, or conditioned, there is the emigration actually proceeding.
The first matter, or the first aspect, to which we draw attention is
that while emigration continues, we venture to submit that there is
an obligation upon the British Government to direct those who are
156 COLOA'IAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII , A. 1908
^i^th Day. leaving its shores to some part of the Empire, and if not actively,
1907 ' ^^ ^^ ^^^ events passively discourage the migration of people of British
• stock to other countries under other flags. Of course, tLt; emigrant
Emigration, djoogeg for himself. He may, for his own reasons, prefer either to
Deakl ) ■'''^" ^^^ friends who have already left, or in order to follow some
particular calling desire to pass outside our territories. That the
emigrant will decide. But, subject to that free choice, what we sub-
mit is that so far as the Government of this country acts at all its
action should be to direct its sons and daughters to its own Domin-
ions where there is ample room and more than ample room for all
who may leave this country to settle abroad. The position appears
to us to be so clear as scarcely to need argument. It is a fact that in
the Dominions beyond the seas the inhabitants are greater consumers
of the goods of this country than any other people. The man who
settles in Canada, or Australia, or South Africa, purchases more
from the Mother Country than if he went to the United States, to
South America, or to any other country under another flag. That
counts for something. What counts for more is that none of the
great Dependencies are yet anything like effectively populated. There
is boundless room for settlement in most of them; and that settle-
ment not only enhances the prosperity of that part of the Empire,
and not only increases its trade with the Mother Country, but is a
guarantee for the permanence of the control of those great terri-
tories by our own people and by our own race. I use the word
" race " here generally and in no invidious sense. We quite recog-
nise that in Canada aad South Africa we have two races with whom
we are most intimately associated. We look forward in those coun-
tries to a gradual merging into a common stock. They are so
closely akin to each other that there is no obstacle to a complete
blending of the two. Ultimately there will be a Canadian people
and a South African people, who, while associated with the Empire
as closely as possible, will not have within themselves the conscious-
ness of any division. In the same way we recognise that it is, per-
haps, hardly possible for us in Australia to draw from the Mother
Country the whole of the people for whom we are at once able to
provide. Wo should be very happy if the peoples who come from
outside the Mother Country to dwell and blend with us were people
of French or Dutch extraction. We have in Australia, thougli in
minor numbers, both French and Dutch settlers already who are
among the most valued citizens we possess. Consequently we look
forward to blending in Australia, to some extent at all events, though
perhaps to a small extent, with races friendly, closely allied, and
similar in character. Now take the point of view of the Empire,
and look forward to the very remote contingency. Suppose that
Canada in course of time becomes densely peopled, supposing its
people overflow — I take that, of course, as an illustration merely —
it would be the paramount interest of all the other self-governing
peoples that those Canadians who desire to leave their country should
settle in some other portion of the Empire for commercial reasons,
for racial reasons, and for every reason. Consequently, we venture
to submit that in whatever way the Government of this country may
think right and proper to intervene in the matter of emigration, in
this one direction we are, perhaps, entitled to press them for some
action; that ia to say. that all they do shall encourage settlers to pass
to any part of the Empire they please, so long as it is a part of the
Empire, and shall, at all events negatively, discourage and certainly
COLOXIIL COM-EIiEXCE. 1901 157
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
not assist them to go to countries which are not Sixth Day.
under the flag. At present I understand whatever information "'' 19^^"^'
is given is given indiscriminately, and that those who are anxious to
go to North or South America beyond our territories, and beyond Emigration,
the Flag, are practically as much assisted and encouraged as if they t) ^^ \
were going to colonies within the Empire. I cannot myself vouch
for that statement, but am so informed by some of those who have
been associated with their going. Under these circumstances, we put
forward our first plea, which is that for all our sakes the stream of
emigration from the Mother Country ought to be directed as much
as possible towards some portion of the King's Dominions, and it
ought not to be assisted in any way towards the Dominions of any
other power. That is the purpose of the first portion of our resolu-
tion : " That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to pro-
" ceed to British Colonies rather than to foreign countries." I do
not know whether it would meet your wishes, and the wishes of the
rest of the Conference, if I stop here, so that this question in which
we are all interested, and on which we can all speak, may be settled
before passing to the second part, which relates to further action by
the Imperial Government.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: There will be no contrary opinion,
I think, to that proposal. I think we can all accept it as granted at
once : " That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to pro-
" ceed to British Colonies rather than to foreign countries. " Every-
body would agree to that.
Mr. DEAKIN : I should hope so. May we take that as passed ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: What will it lead to? I look upon
this simply as a preliminary.
Mr. DEAKIN: If that is settled I will then proceed with the
second part.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I want to say something on it some-
where.
Mr. DEAKIN: Would it be on the first part?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Either on the first part or the second
part?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I do not think there is anything to
say against this jjart.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Only there are some general points on
which I, as representing New Zealand, should like to say a word or
two. Like Sir Wilfrid Laurier I most cordially assent to the first
part, but it is just a question whether we should not discuss the
whole matter on the first proposal.
Dr. JAMESON: The second portion is the practical part. Would
it not be well to have some practical suggestion from Australia be-
fore going into the discussion, to save going all over it again?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I support the first part generally.
CHAIRMAN: I do not think there is any dissent on the first
part?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : No.
Mr. DEAKIN: I hope not. The second part is "That the Im-
" perial Government be requested to co-operate with any Colonies de-
" siring immigrants in assisting suitable persons to emigrate. " Here
158 COLOSIAL CONFERENCE. 190~
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sisth Day. we take a step further. The Imperial Government is asked to co-
"^^iw*" operate with every Colonj- desiring immigrants. If there are any
1 portions of the Empire which do not desire immigrants, to them we
Emigration, have nothing to say. But most of us are eager to obtain them, and
(^^- far more eager to obtain them from the Mother Country than from
elsewhere. They blend with us in the working of our social and
political institutions, they enter into our life in all its phases without
any sense of separateness or strangeness, and hence we are most
eager to obtain them.
The extent to which the Imperial Government will co-operate has
been left unspecified for the reasons previously given. That is a
matter on which we can prefer a request for co-operation, bvit cannot
expect to do more than suggest generally what, from our point of
view, we wish them to undertake. Whether they will do what we
ask, or only part of it, is for them to decide. The co-operation we
seek is, first of all, in regard to the practical channels by which emi-
gration is sought to be effected in this country. These should be
adequate to their task. The only body that I understand is con-
nected with it officially, is the Emigration Board under this Depart-
ment. I have been inquiring from the Agents-General of the several
States of Australia their opinions as to the efficiency of this par-
ticular agency, and regTet to say that their unanimous opinion is of
an unfavourable character. They think, at present, that no effective
assistance is being given to them bv this Board. They go so far as
to doubt whether it is possible for it to be given by a Board con-
stituted in this manner. The.v object even to the publications which
it has submitted, and have felt this so strongly that they have un-
dertaken publications of their own, at their own expense, which they
consider far more likely to attract emigrants than those of the Emi-
gration Board. Sjjeaking, as they do, as men of high standing who
have the supervision on this side of whatever is being done by the
States of the Commonwealth in res'pect to immigration, I regret to
learn that their verdict is so unfavourable. The.v suggest that some
Board, responsible directl.v to Parliament, or responsible directly to
a 15iuister, should be charged with this duty: that they, or some of
their respresentatives, should be associated with it in the most direct
fashion, and that they should be consulted before statements are put
forward which sometimes they have found themselves obliged to
challenge.
By way of illustration, since I have been here I have been sup-
plied with correspondence which has taken place with reference to
one of the most recent of the circulars issued by the Emigrants' In-
formation Office. It is dated 12th of April of this year. Of course,
porsonall.v, I am dependent upon tlie material that is put into my
hands when speaking of the operations here. The official statement
published is that " The Queensland Government has a system of free
" passages to hona fide farm labourers and their families who are ap-
" proved by the Agent-General in London, and guarantees them em-
" ployment in the State at full wages ; but up to the present the
" indents for such passages have been limited to men willing to work
" on the sugar farms in the north. Tlie climate there is hot and
" moist in the rainy season, from January to ^farch, and hot and
" dry at other times, and is very different from that to which farm
" laborers are accustomed in this countr.v. It is ver.v questionable,
" therefore, whetlier tliev would be able to work on arrival under the
" tropical conditions tlnit prevail in North Queensland. The work of
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 159
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
"harvesting and cnisliinfr cane is still more tryinp, and is paid for Sixth Daj.
" at a higher rate. The free passage emigrant need not engage in it 25th April,
" unless he wishes, and. indeed, tlie work is not suitahle for persons
'' from this country who have not resided for some time in the Emigration.
*' tropics. Assisted passages are also offered at 5/. per statute (Mr.
" adult. " That is a statement, one of those many statements from Deakia.)
which we suffer, which is sufficientl.v correct in a general wa.v not to
be challengeable as wilful misrepresentation, but which, in its actual
effect and purport, is a misrepresentation. First of all. the work of
crushing cane has never yet been done by an.vbod.v but white labour
ever since sugar was grown in Queensland, and the warning therefore
given here that the work of crushing cane '' is still more trying, and
is paid for at a Iiigher rate. " is. first of all. not correct, because it is
not more trying, and secondly, it takes place in the mills, and there-
fore, less tr.ving. It has never been carried on from the commence-
ment b,v anything but white labour ; it is well paid, and well-sought
for. Therefore, so far as the crushing of cane is concerned, that is an
absolute misrepresentation. Take the other statement : " the work
of harvesting is still more trying and is paid for at a higher rate."
The work of harvesting is trying. You could not take a
mass of labourers from this country and put them down into a cane
harvest field, and expect the whole body of them to be able to engage
in that work, well as it is remunerated, with satisfaction to them-
selves. There are a certain proportion of our people who cannot
face the close atmosphere and moist heat of the cane fields. That
proportion, of course, cannot be classified beforehand; it is a matter
for individual experience. But this wholesale statement is made
in face of the fact that the Commonwealth of Australia has deliber-
atel.v adopted the policy of requiring that the whole of ftis work
shall be "done by white labour, and in face of the fact that we have
been dealing during the last two years with the largest harvest of
sugar cane we have ever had, and are dealing with it by a far larger
proportion of white labour than ever was employed in it before, I
think, I may say, to the satisfaction of the men who obtain the work
and to the satisfaction, to a very large extent, of the employers them-
selves. Wliere there is dissatisfaction the testimony is that it arises
from the want of self-control of those engaged in a remunerative
employTuent, who are accustomed, as unfortunatel.v poojile are in
many parts of the world, to spend too great a proportion of their
wages upon stimulants and to disqualify themselves by that means
from efficiently continuing their work. There can be no doubt that
the excessive use of stimulants is more injurious in a hot climate
than it is in a cold climate. Wliat the labourer in the cane field
sufferers from most, or at all events what is most complained about, is
due to these excesses. But here we are deliberatel.v, as a part of a
national policy, providing for the carrying on of the whole of this
industry b.v white labour. Of course, as Australia becomes older
an increasingly large proportion of our labour will be Australian
born. Yet, speaking broadly and accepting the opinion of competent
critics, they are unable to detect in our first or even in our second
generation an.v appreciable departure from the old stock. We have
men freshl.v landed in the hotter regions of our country — and I am
speaking now of the north of Australia — who go at once to such
work. T have spoken to many men who have gone from England,
Ireland, or Scotland direct to North Queensland, or some of the
northern portions of Australia, and who have engaged at once in the
160 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. most trying occupations in the most trying belt. A short distance
"^'•'^g^P''''' from the sea coast one reaches the plateau. On that plateau we get
L cold fresh nights, and there white men enjoy what is said by them
Emigration, to be one of the best climates in the world. In the belt where the
(^r. sugar grows, conditions are different, it is on the sea coast, and' the
heat is moist and oppressive. It is not everyone who can live there
with comfort and satisfaction, though it is only a small proportion
of those who settle thei'e who ever think of leaving it. The great
proportion remain, thrive and flourish and labour, much of which
is as trying as this labour, and they are now doing this labour with
excellent pecuniary results. No one would gather from reading this
official statement that these are the facts of the case; that a deliber-
ate attempt has been made, which so far has been most successful, to
substitute white labour for black labour in this industry. That is
actually proceeding. Each year for the last three or four years a
great stride has been made. During the last twelve months we have
returned to their homes some 3,000 Kanakas, Pacific Islanders, who
have been engaged in this industry. Their place will have to be
taken in the next season by white men. A certain proportion of the
Kanakas are allowed to remain with us — those who have really made
homes, or become, in their sense of the word, partially civilized and
settled down. Their labour will be still available if they choose to
give it. But undoubtedly the greater part of this work will have to
be done by white men, and is cheerfully being done by white men.
My last news from Australia is that the applicants for employment
on those fields are numerous enough to cause it to be doubted whether
we shall be dependent on immigration to permit of the whole crop
being dealt with thoroughly this year. Personally I think that is too
sanguine an estimate. I am not a North Queenslander, and there-
fore not qualified to speak by personal knowledge, but looking at the
number of Kanakas leaving, and the great demand there is at present
for labour in all parts of Australia at high rates of wages, it seems
to me very doubtful whether we should be able to cope with the special
demands of this crop, the biggest crop we have ever had, and a similar
crop which will be reaped in the coming season. Therefore I think
we shall need immigration. What I have been referring to I have
said in a letter calling attention to this circular. I might proceed to
the other portions of this statement, but really this general state-
ment will show first of all a serious blunder in regard to the crushing,
and next that it is a statement which is entirely one-sided — although,
of course, quite honest — and is certain to be misleading.
Dr. JAMESON: Whom is that published by?
Mr. DEAKIN: By this very Board of Emigration of which the
Agents General have been complaining — the Emigration Information
Office. In my letter of the 20th of April, I pointed out — " No doubt
" it would be a perfectly proper thing to instruct emigrants both on
" the nature of the work for which they are proposed to be engaged,
" and also to call their attention to the climatic conditions under
" wliioh it is to be accomplished. All facts of this kind ought to be
"supplied and none sui)prcssed ; but it is not apparent why the meni-
"bors of the Board with their imperfect knowledge of the character
"of this employment, and apparently also of the extent to which it is
"being successfully carried on liy white labour, should absolutely warn
"emigrants against the undertaking. Evidently the influence that
" such nn official declaration on the part of the Colonial Office is
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907 161
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" likely to have upon other European Governments has been over- gij^tj, Un
" looked by those whose desire must be to encourage British settlers 25th Apii'l,
" to seek new homes within the Empire. The circular of the Emi- 1907.
" grants' Information Office dated 12th April is free from this ob- Emigration
" jcction, though tlie expression of opinion it contains is in Mr. (Mr.
" Denkin's opinion decidedly too sweeping." I will quote presently a Deakin.)
further statement of the Emigration Board made in a letter to an
applicant for British immigration for Australia, to which my reply
refers. The passages that I have read from the circular should
have been accompanied by a few other sentences, stating that the
greater part of this work is now being done by white labour; a
great part of that white labour is British born; the whole of that
work will have to be done in future, by steady degrees, more and
more by white labour; the wages paid are high; for men who lead
temperate lives and will take the ordinary precautions necessary
in a different climate this work is thoroughly healthy. I am
assured by those who have personal experience that some of the
finest specimens of our manhood they have ever seen are to be
found engaged in harvesting in the cane fields. I take this as a
typical illustration. It is a fact that men are earning in those
cane fields wages which would be very hard to get anywhere else.
Some first-class experts during the last harvest season were mak-
ing as high as from 11. a day, and in a few exceptionally extra-
ordinary insl.iuces upwards of 305. a day, during the time of harvest-
ing. The point is that this harvest, like all other harvests all the
wc«"ld over, is for a limited season; its beginning depends partly on
the part of the coast on which you are. Quite a considerable portion
.of our rural labour in Australia is nomadic. Our immense flocks of
sheiep are shorn by shearers who come from their own farms or from
employment in the city, during the season. They take their horses,
and commencing at the north of Australia, when the shearing season
begins earliest, shear their way southwards, right down through
Queensland and New South Wales to Victoria, travelling probably
2,000 to 3,000 miles. In the same way, though to a lesser extent, in
the cane-cutting on the Queensland coast, which lasts about four
months altogether, it is possible to commence at the north, and work
south. The cane-cutters, like the shearers, are either the owners of
farms, or are establishing farms themselves, and wish to obtain money
for improvements and other purposes. They come for that season
of the year. The work proceeds during the hot season, but the evi-
dence goes to show that these men, apart from the over-indulgence in
alcohol of which I have spoken, and over-indulgence in meat-eating
which is practically universal in Australia, maintain their health
perfectly in the cane fields. They can work, not only with the black
men, but, as is always the case in our experience, they can beat the
black men or Chinamen out of the field, in cane-c\itting or any other
employment, in any climate we have in Australia. When I speak of
the very high wages I am not speaking of the whole body of cane-
cutters. Where they earn those high wages they are not being paid
by the day, but by piecework. They take contracts at average rates,
and the high wages are obtained by exceptional capacity and expert
training, such as I have spoken of. They can get that training in a
season or two. One season is considered sufficient to train a man,
and two seasons ought to enable him to make the best of his time.
These high wages are earned only on contract work, they are not
earned on day work.
58—11
162 COLOMAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. I did not intend to enter into all these considerations, or I would
1907^'"' ' ^^^^ summarised my remarks and abbreviated them. I have been
drawn on to them by the fact that I had not realised that before I
Emigration, could make these conditions understood in criticising that circular,
D £^in i ■"• ^^^ ^^ ^'^^ some sort of sketch of what is being done in Queens-
land.
Surely, the proper thing for an Emigration Office under these
circumstances would he to say: " You are going out to Queensland,
" a State which offers already large opportunities for land settle-
" ment, which, according to its programme, is about to give 160 acres
"free to any settler who will go there, and to make other land avail-
" able at attractive rates; a State where there are boundless mineral
" and agricultura! resources of all kinds. This is one class of work
" in connection with one class of product only of the many in Queens-
" land, and if you should find that this employment is unsuitable for
" you, you can have ample work on dairy farms, on grain farms, on
" sheep stations, on cattle stations, as soon as you acquire the requisite
" local knowledge." As far as work in the dairy is concerned local
knowledge is soon added. Thexe is abundance of employment on the
land in Queensland. I am speaking of that State only because that
is the sugar State, whose conditions have been questioned, but the
same remark applies to the northern rivers of New South Wales
where sugar is also grown. Although sugar is not now grown in the
remaining states of Australia, with some qualification the same gene-
ral remarks apply to them. Agriculture is by no means the only
rural industry; the timber industry has great potentialities in the
felling. This clears the land, which when cleared is marvellously
rich. The climate is not described with strict correctness in that
circular as tropical. It is rather sub-tropical. Perhaps you may say
that this is a distinction without a difference, but in an official docu-
mefit it is as well to be accurate. The north coast climate of Queens-
land is sub-tropical rather than tropical. Those, however, are minor
matters. But the fact is, anyone reading that circular would be dis-
couraged, or would be likely to be discouraged, and certainly those
who persist go out under serious misapprehension. They ought to be
warned of the climate, which is e.xtremely trying to men not accus-
tomed to a hot sun and close atmosphere. The cane work is perfectly
healthy; but as the dense cane shrub shuts out the breeze in its
midst, that makes cane cutting moist and uneomfurtable work. Still,
as I have said, some of the finest specimens of maiiliood that we
possess are to be seen there. Some of these men I have spoken to
personally, and they make nothing of their labour. I do not wish to
push that too far. We have not sufficient knowledge yet to fix the
percentage of average labourers who would choose this work. But I
have spoken to men engaged in the actual task of cutting, and they
have assured me — and they have no reason to mislead — that they find
it not more laborious than many classes of work which they do else-
where.
Coming back to the circular, and apologising for my long digres-
sion, I say that is not the way in which a Government office ought
to co-operate with a Colony desiring immigrants. So far as we are
concerned we desire the truth to be stated — the whole truth and
nothing but tho truth — but it is to be stated in such a manner as not
to convey misapprehensions. It is to bo stated in some way that will
not discourage all the Agents-General concerned, as the Emigration
COLONIAL COXFEREKCE, 1907 163
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Board has done. There will always be a certain proportion of people Sixth Day.
who come from Great Britain who will he to some extent at all events 1907'"^
dissatisfied with their colonising experience. Until they leave their
own country they do not know how much they are attached to its Emigration,
special conditions, to their old relationships, ties, and memories, j. ^^f- .
and they are very apt to take an unduly dissatisfied view of their new
country, simply because it is not a replica of the old country, with
the customs and undertakings with which they are familiar. An allow-
ance always has to be allowed for that margin, which is to be found in
any country to which there has been any immigration. On the other
hanil, spi'aking broadly, not only for Australia, but for the whole of
the dominions, we say that immigrants will find conditions more close-
ly approximating to those in Great Britain there than they will under
any other flag. They will find Governments, business relations, and
social conditions much nearer to those they have left than they can
hope to find anywhere else. Consequently, we suggest that the Im-
perial Government should adopt some more effective form of instruct-
ing those who are about to emigrate and in a far more adequate way
than this circular, if it be a fair sample, has done. The statements
made should be complete and balanced, instead of being incomplete
and unbalanced. The emigrants from Great Britain should, as far
as possible be equipped with official statements which can be furnish-
ed from every State giving all the details of life and living, prices,
and every other particular, so that there may be no misapprehension
whatever as to the state of affairs into which the new comer will be
launched. Up to now we have not properly imitated the splendid
example of Canada. We have neither coped with immigration on the
same scale, nor provided for the reception of immigrants in the man-
ner in which they have set an example; but that is being remedied.
Immigrants to Australia no longer find themselves left to look after
themselves. They are met on landing, supplied with information,
and, as far as possible, assisted in every way to make their homes.
Every State of Australia gives exceptional advantages for land settle-
ment. They make advances upon improvements as these are made
by the settlers, the Crown, of course, retaining still its right to the
land, subject to the fulfilment of its conditions, which are very light
and easy, by the immigrant. The Crown still being the ground land-
lord, so to speak, for the time, is able to advance to settlers money
which enables them to build their houses, and fence and improve their
property, and to assist them in clearing the land. They now get a
welcome, and every encouragement. We think therefore that the least
to be expected is that a fair view of these facts should be put before
all intending emigrants so that, when each makes his choice, he may
know what Australia has to offer. If he keeps within the Empire
we have nothing more to say. If he should leave it we regard him as
a loss. We look upon emigration to foreign countries as draining the
life blood of the Empire. We cannot consent to see people pass away
from it who ought to remain upholding its flag.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I would like
to say a few words upon this matter. New Zealand is in rather a
different position from Australia. I think what ilr. Deakin has
said with regard to Australia in its general application applies to
New Zealand, but there is one important distinction, and that is that
happily we have not a " coloured labour " question. It does not
58— Hi
164 COLONIAL CONFEREXCE. 1007
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. trouble us as a reality in New Zealand; in Australia it does. And
"^ iQ^*"^' from what I know of my own knowledge and liave seen and heard
L from people in Australia, my opinion on the black labour question
Emigration, is similar to that of Mr. Deakin, that white labour could do all the
(Sir Joseph work in Australia that black labour is now doing. Though there have
^^ ■' been many statements made to the contrary by people, that is the
general feeling of the people of Australia, and New Zealand most
heartily endorses it, and I support Mr. Deakin in that respect most
thoi'oughly.
In New Zealand we are in a different position. We have been
carrying out a system of immigration for a number of years, but have
been doing it Ui)oii a scale and upon a system that I should not like
to see departed from. The principle suggested or the proposed indi-
cated in the memorandum from the Secretary of State for the Colo-,
nies about State-aided emigrants from Great Britain, is one which
we would require to approach very carefully indeed, for the reason
that I believe the troubles in the matter of an excess of people that
you have to meet in England implies that the ma.iority of those who
seek to be helped out of your country, or a great many of them, would
be the class that under ordinary conditions you do not cave to retain.
What I mean to say by that is that the class of people, if they were
of a superior class, that you would want to help oiit in large numbers
to our country, are the very people you ought to want to keep for
yourselves. If you are going to have a system of State-aided emi-
grants to the self-governing Colonies, unless we had the right of ex-
amination and selection before they left here — which right, if you
were giving State-aid or a large portion of that aid, I presume you
would want to retain in your own hands — the inference is we might
get people imported into our country, or a portion of them, whom we
would not care to have coming in in either small or large numbers.
I am not for a moment presuming to make any reflection upon pro-
bably the most estimable class of people who may want to go to " fresh
fields and pastures new " to try their fortunes there. But experience
some years ago in New Zealand — and we can only look at this matter
in the light of what we suffered many years ago — was in the nature
of what I have endeavoured to describe, namely, that we got a very
large section of people who were most undesirable ; and our Colony
would certainly not be prepared to go into anything like a wholesale
scheme of immigration upon lines of that kind.
The position that New Zealand takes up is that we are glad to
receive immigrants if they are of a suitable class and have some
capital; otherwise we are not. Immigration of that character is
assisted now by the Colony through the High Commissioner in the
case of British emigrants, and we are very particular in the matter
and the High Commissioner of the Colony here is most careful and
tliorougli. he docs not make a superficial examination, but a thorough
examination into every instance of people desiring to come to our
cou:itry. If they are accepted, then we pay a sufficient pprtion of the
passage money to reduce tlie passage to New Zealand to 10/. We are
in the position of being the most distant of the self-governing
Colonies from England, and the passage to our country is probably
a good deal higher than it is to the more fortunate Colonies that are
close to the tJld Land. We make a reservation that oiu'h person we
assist must luive some money, and we guard ourselves by doing that
in order to ensure that, in the ordinary sense, he would be able to look
COLONIAL COXFEREyCE, 1907 165
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
round for himself after he has arrivod in our Colony with a view to Sixth Day.
obtaining' siiitable employment, or embarking in anything he desires. 1907*"^
We fixed the amount at one time at 50/., but have since reduced it to
20/. We do not make it a hard and fast rule tliat that is the only class Emigration,
of immigration we assist. We have a system of nominated immi- (Sir Joseph
gration by which the people of our country make their own selection,
and then upon their arrival in our Colony the immigrants are taken
in hand by their own friends and in that respect the State Dei ^rt-
ments are relived of any direct assistance to them in the way of help-
ing them to find employment. We also in such a case give a contri-
bution to the passage money to reduce it to 10/. That we do with all
lines of steamers trading to our Colony. I may say that in two years
from the Old Country itself under a system of selected immigration,
6.6.32 people came to New Zealand, and brought with them the sum of
275.046/. So, while anxious to see the people in our country increase
legitimately, we are working rather from a different standpoint to
that which I take it the Old World or Canada and Australia are doing.
We are working in the direction of getting some of your people who
have a limited amount of means into our Colony with a certain amount
of capital to ensure that they become good colonists, and be a valuable
asset to our country generally. To enable those 6,632 people to come
out to New Zealand we paid 22,382/. to the steamship companies to
help them.
Quite outside of those whom the High Commissioner selects and
sends to our country, and of the nominated system to which I have
referred, we have a class who come to New Zealand of their own
accord, who are quite welcome to come to our country without means
at all, or with means, as the case may be. From that source we get
the larger proportion of those who come to New Zealand and settle
there. Within a period of years we have over 50.000 people coming
in that way. An examination into the statistics of our Colony shows
that over a period of years we have retained them permanently, and
we liave lost only 1,000 against 60,000 coming during that period of
years. In our country, which is expanding, and which requires to have
outside suitable labour from time to time drawn to it, we are working
upon the principle of gradual expansion and gradual increase suitable
to the requirements of our people, and we are prepared to assist upon
tlie lines I have indicated in order to bring that about. I think I am
right in saying that indiscriminate emigration under the auspices of
any organisation in the Old Country would not be approved in New
Zealand. Here I would remark that there is an opening for farmers
with a little capital, and also for domestic servants, but I hesitate to
advise unskilled labourers who have neither means nor vocations, to
come out to our country in large numbers, for the reason that we
do not want to have the wrong impression conveyed which Mr.
Deakin has referred to. Whatever the position in our country we
desire the truth to be stated for the guidance of those who desire
to come to our country. We do not want a large number of
imskilled labourers coming to New Zealand, because with the possi-
bility of the dislocation of the labour market, there might be a
tendency to create from time to time a section of those who might
not be able to get regular employment. We are in the position in
our Colony of fortunately not having unemployed. We have not
known the meaning of " unemployed " in the ordinary sense for
many years, and we want to avoid anything of the kind. We prefer
166 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. to have a community well spread over our country, fully employed,
^^^\<m'"^' ^"'''' *° ^^ rather on the side of requiring a few more to come — those
L required for the use of our farmers and business men and for set-
Emigration, tling the country — than to have an excess with its tendency to create
(Sir Joseph the troubles that many years ago we had. What I want to re-
Ward.) mark is that New Zealand is quite prepared to have placed before
it the suggestions of what is best in the general interest for making
provision to meet the desire suggested by Mr. Deakin, of British
subjects going to our British Colonies. We are quite prepared to
consider as favourably as we can, any proposal for a suitable scheme
to bring about what I think we all desire, but it would be quite a
wrong impression for me to convey, as the representative of New
Zealand, that we can subscribe to any great scheme for the wholesale
immigration of people, which the country itself might not be pre-
pared to absorb within reasonable time upon their arrival.
I therefore wish to say that any proposal that is made for a large
scheme of immigration, would require to be very carefully considered
by the New Zealand Government and Parliament before I could sub-
scribe to it.
Upon one point referred to by Mr. Deakin, I would remark that
while those who are anxious to send people away from the Old Land,
may desire the co-operation of the Colonial Governments, and while
we might be anxious to have British people placed in British Colonies,
there is the very important factor that exists, that great shipping or-
ganizations travelling from here to America, for instance, can by
reduction of fares, and in many ways defeat an object of that kind.
For my own part, while I should be only too glad to co-operate in,
and to see, an ideal scheme, as suggested by Mr. Deakin, of British
subjects living under the British flag, I am afraid we should have
some difficulty in putting it into practical operation so long as these
other great countries outside Canada (which has been doing an im-
mense amount of good in that respect) are prepared, owing to their
closeness to the Old World, to give that which we cannot give in
the matter of passage money. I do not know whether Mr. Burns has
any fixed notions of a general scheme which we could co-operate in.
but T have thought it desirable to put on record the views that I
hold on behalf of New Zealand. We want to help people to come to
our country on legitimate lines. We do not want to have them com-
ing out in excessive numbers, thoiigh the country has absorbed all who
have come up to now without any difficulty, and. while we want to
assist generally, we want to prevent a rush of people under mistaken
impressions of there being limitless employment available in our
country.
J Jr. JAMESON: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, after what Ifr.
Deakin and Sir Joseph Ward have said, T do not think there is much
to he said on the general subject. Of course, I believe the whole
Conference is absolutely at one upon the first portion of the resolu-
tion. With regard to Cape Colony — and I think my colleagues will
say South Africa — we, unfortunately, are rather in the reverse posi-
tion at present owing to our late troubles.
Mr. DEAKIN : Only momentarily.
Dr. JAMESON: Mr. Deakin has been speaking of emigration
from this country and immigration into our countries. The fact of
the matter is we have b(>on engaged in promoting emigration from our
country and immigration into the old country. Still, wo are very
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 167
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
much interested in the suhject, though not immediately or actively Sixth Day.
interested at the present moment, but I have no doubt, as Mr. Deakin .q^'"^
says, it is only momentary, and when my friend General Botha has L
firmly established or re-established prosperity in the source of the Emigration.
mass of our wealth in the nortli of our country, we will then actively (^^^
go into the question of emigration, because there is plenty of room
to fill up in both directions — both from the labour point of view, when
that wealth has accumulated again from the North, and also from the
land settlement point of view. At the present moment as a fact, we
are only on the very verge of close settlement, but later, I have not
the least doubt that close settlement will take place in South Africa,
as it is taking place so largely in Canada and I believe even now in
Australia. We believe in our country; we believe that the wealth
whicli is under the land ought to have a cliance to come \ip and be
made applicable to the increasing of the agricultural prospects of our
country so that the country may hold a very large population.
With regard to labour coming into the country we cannot con-
gratulate ourselves like Sir Joseph Ward that we have no coloured
labour. I was very much interested in what Mr. Deakin said with
regard to the perfect certainty that the coloured labour, in what ap-
peared to be, from his description, circumstances as trying as any-
thing wo have in Sou h Afr'ca, was absolutely beaten out by tlis white.
I must say that in our experiments in the country I come from we
have not found that. We have found that practically a certain class
of labour has always to be done by the coloured man. If we could
believe that we, like Northern Queensland are going to replace the
black by the white labour, then we should have an enormous field for
immigration into our country, but from Mr. Deakin's own figures,
giving the wages at 1/. or 30.s. a day, it looks to me. unless it is a
very very prosperous industry, that if you have to pay so much, it is
not very attractive to white labour, and it is quite possible the indus-
try will not last, if it is on a Jarge scale, at 1?. or -30.5. a day. We
should get white men to do labour in our country where the black
does it at present, but it has actually been tried and failed. If we
get a navvy out there, we pay the navvy under the circumstances in
which the labour takes place — not under ground, but on the surface in
mining work — 10s. a day in the summer time; but he does exactly
half the amount of work that the black man at three pounds a month
does.
!Mr. DEAKIN: My figures, as I said, were for contract labour,
not day wages.
Dr. JAMESON: We could easily adopt day labour or contract
labour. It does not matter which system we adopt, we find that the
white men cannot compete with the black under certain conditions.
However, we hope in the future to have plenty of room for many
more white labourers in the country and especially we hope to have
still more room for the agriculturists on. close settlements when we
get our irrigation and other problems settled.
With regard to the practical point, the only thing brought for-
ward by Mr. Deakin was that the Imperial Government at the pres-
ent moment has rather prevented than helped emigration. I quite
agree with Mr. Deakin in what he has said about the report of the
Emigration Council or Board. I suppose really what we all have to
do in that direction is to follow the example of Canada, and prac-
tically manage the emigration for ourselves, both on this side and on
168 COLOyiAL COyFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. the other side. We are all pretty good at advertising, but I think
'^ iq^*"^ Canada is pre-eminently good in advertising their country on this
L side. If there is an Emigration Board, I think that it should be on
Emigration, the lines suggested by Mr. Deakin, giving the necessary warning, and
(Dr. at the same time pointing out the necessary advantages.
Jameson.) ^g j jj^^g said, this is not an active question for us at present.
We hope later on we may benefit by whatever conclusions the Con-
ference comes to in the way of helping towards emigration from the
Motherland into the Colonies as against the rest of the world.
Mr. F. E. MOOR: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I agree on general
lines with what has been stated by my colleagues from the Cape
Colony. Owing to the large influx of men during the war, and owing
to the great destruction of property and wealth during the progress
of the war, at the end of that crisis we found South Africa with a
large floating population which we could not immediately absorb
owing to the condition of things in which we were, and we have
really been suffering from a large number of men being unable to get
immediate employment. I do believe the day will come, and I hope
to see the day, when we shall be able to absorb a large number of
whites from these islands. We are now trying to reorganize the
whole position of affairs over there, and more or less to get our house
in order, after what I have been describing as the losses contingent
on the war. I also am very much impressed with what has been
said by Mr. Deakin here which goes to show that the white man can
hold his own under certain conditions against the black. I hold
very strong views in that respect, and do believe that the white man
under the incentive of contract labour will be able to do a great deal
more than ever has been attempted yet by white labour in South
Africa. We in South Africa have, perhaps, suffered, from a plethora
of black or coloured unskilled labour, which in my humble opinion
has been misapplied in regard to numbers, and in regard to which
there has been a vast waste of labour owing to the unorganized
methods we have adopted for employing this labour. I do not con-
fine myself to an.v particular industry over there, but men are ap-
plied in far greater numbers, as regards results, than any other coun-
try that employs entirely white, more or less skilled, labour. That
is so at every turn in the Colony that I represent. I will not comnjit
myself to numbers, but you will find three or four black fellows being
iised where, with skilled intelligent white labour, one man could do
it. That was impressed upon my mind most strongl.v in my visit
to Australia, and there being able to see how they were managing
there with labour-saving appliances, and returning to m.v Colony,
I realised how we were wasting laboiir with our crude forms of un-
organized labour, owing, to a very large extent, to the vast amount
of unskilled labour that was at our doors. Instead of using brains
and capital to save labour, we were piling on unskilled labour to do
the work regardless of cost, and perhaps in many instances the re-
sult of production with that unskilled labour was reall.v more costly
thaji the products of the countries working with labour skilled and
properly organized. Wo find in many of our ind\istries wo are being
beaten b.v products from Australia (whicli we can prod\ico
quite ns well and in quite as large quantities"), owing to our methods
and wasteful means of carrying on those industries. T do hope that
the day will not be long dela.yed before the reorganization of our
economic conditions, we shall bo able to absorb a larger anunuit of
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 1901 169
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
white labour. We are doing little now iu that direction in the way gjxth Dav.
of assisted passages. The Government has contracts with steamers 25th April,
which have brought down passage money, and our Government con- ^^""-
tributes half of that amount in the event of any employer applying Emigration,
to the Government for any particular selected emigrant on this side (Mr. F. E.
of the water. Owing, however, to the present surplus of labour, this Moor.)
provision is temporarily suspended.
I have nothing further to add. We feel that we have to reorganise
our methods and our conditions to bring ourselves up to the position
of advancement of the other Colonies of the Empire. I believe, sin-
cerely. We shall succeed, and, if we do, we have almost as large a
field there for the settlement of men of our colour and race as the
other Dependencies with the Empire. I will not say it is so, perhaps,
as regards Canada, because there they seem to have such a vast area
of arable land that we cannot compare ourselves to it; but given area
for area, I do believe we shall be able to absorb proportionately our
share of emigration from this land.
General BOTHA : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, in the Transvaal
our position is almost more difficult than in any other of the South
African Colonies. The unfortunate circumstances in the past have
dislocated many matters there, but the Government since the con-
clusion of peace is doing its best to encourage immigration into the
Transvaal. During the War many people came to the Transvaal
who are not suitable for immigration purposes, and who do not wish
to remain there. We have unfortunately a place like Johannesburg
where people want to get rich very soon, and that is where the diffi-
culty lies with us in the Transvaal. I have a great faith in South
Africa and in the Transvaal as a country for a largo population, es-
pecially as regards agriculture. But it will take some time before we
can put this thing on a proper basis. I hope that we shall be able to
very strongly support the immigration of white people into the
Transvaal, because if there is one thing that we require in South
Africa it is a large white population. At present we want people
who have some means. We have to-day thousands of people in the
country who have really no work to do and the Government have to
employ them on road making and similar matters to make them earn
their daily bread. Then unfortunately there is the lamentable dif-
ference of opinion between whites and whites on the labour ques-
tion. Now my Government are of opinion that we should as far as
practicable encourage the immigration of white workmen into the
country. The biggest immigration that we have had into the Trans-
vaal has been that of Chinese, and I think we have between 50.000 and
60,000 Chinamen still in the country. I hope that on this question
too we shall be able to arrive at a clear understanding, and that in
future instead of importing yellow labour we shall have immigration
of white people into the country, because we feel that if we have a
considerable white immigration into the country the money which
they earn will be spent afterwards in building up the agriculture
of the country. We have got any amount of scope and space, and
we think we can bear a population of millions of people. The thing
that we lack is money to carry out this project. It is a dry country.
We must set large irrigation schemes on foot and before we have
made some such arrangements it will be impossible for us to do any-
thing further. I may say that my Government have under their
earnest consideration to-day the question of encouraging more white
people into the country and on to the farms and on to the land.
170 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. Mr. DEAKIN: Might I point out this: speaking in an impromptu
"^*'iQ(w^'^''' ^^®^io^ to-day, I did not read one document which I ought to have
L read with reference to emigration, though I alluded to it. A Mr.
Emigration. Hughes, who represents the employers in Queensland who desire to
(General obtain white labour for sugar cutting, wrote to the Emigration Board
' and I referred to their reply without quoting it. He forwarded the
conditions to them. The conditions are for the obtaining of labourers,
and provide that preference must be given to British people under
all circumstances. Only failing them can application be made
to the Continent. I am happy to hear indirectly that we hope to
obtain a sufficiency from this country without applying at all
to the Continent, so far as the Queensland Government is con-
cerned. However, what they are offered is not contract rates,
though they may take these if they like afterwards, but regular
terms, which range from 22s. 6d. to 25s. a week with rations and
accommodation, and for harvesting, 25s. a week with rations, or
an alternative for contract cutting by mutual agreement. Of
course the prices earned by contract cutting must not be measured
by the price for day labour. They are the earnings of exception-
ally skilled and capable men, just as some of our shearers always
earn twice or thrice as much as the ordinary shearers because
they have a special aptitude. The reply of the Committee wrs even
more direct and unqualified than their published circular, hecnuse in
answer, Mr. Henry Lambert, signing- as Chairman, on the 15th March
last says : " My Committee do not consider that emigrants from this
" country are at aU suited for work on sugar plantations " — the whole
sugar industry is swept out — " and they would certainly feel it their
" duty to warn them against undertaking such work in the tropics."
I think explicitness is a great virtue; it is one of the greatest official
virtues, and there is no doubt about the perfect explicitness of that
statement. The Emigration Office feel it their duty, owing to their
own want of knowledge, actually to warn British emigrants against
undertaking the work which is now being undertaken successfully by
several thousand white men this season. The industry is very pros-
perous ; the contract rates I referred to are exceptionally high. If the
whole industry were conducted on that Dr. Jameson's oriticism vo\ilrl
be quite justified. The average man is on daily wages. I mentioned
those high rates because they tend to withdraw men from the daily
wage system to the contract system, in which as a rule, they get better
results than on the daily system. Otherwise they would not under-
take it. Only exceptionally qualified men get the wonderful results
mentioned, which are of great value, although they are rare, because
they operate as a stimulus to attract men to the industry, and as a
stimulus to the men employed in the industry to put forth their best
efforts. When others see a man able to make 1?. a day for weeks in
succession, and return home with the result, that helps to draw people
in Australia to this industry. Fndoubtedly in every part of it this
work will be accompli.«hcd by white labour only. We have enough
direct experience now to be quite satisfied that it can be done. There
is no doul)t about that. Those cxcopfional terms attract people to it.
The average men do not earn so much, but the work is being done
efficiently by white labour to-day — more than half of it. If my
memory serves me, I think nearly three parts of the work will be
done by white labour this season. Under these circumstances, for
a Government Agency to absolutely warn men against undertaking
1
COLONIAL COyFERENCE. 1907 171
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
work whicli men ai'o already doirf;, and doing: most profitably, car- Sixth Day.
tainly points to a very stranjje condition of affairs. ^* iq^^"^
Mr. BUllNS: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, the Conference has Emigratiou.
decided unanimously to adopt the first paragraph, that " it is desirable (Mr.
" to encourage British emigrants to proceed to British Colonies rather iJeatin.)
" than to foreign countries." Against that first paragraph the Gov-
ernment have no objection to make, because it practically connotes
a line of action that has been taken not only by the Government but
by all the subordinate authorities throughout the United Kingdom
during the last 15 or 20 years with regard to the direction of, advice
to, and guidance of intending settlers in new countries from the
Mother Country.
We are discussing the second paragraph now, which says : " That
" the Imperial Go\'ernment be requested to co-operate with any
" Colonics desiring immigrants in assisting suitable persons to emi-
" grate." That, of course, brings us face to face with practical
methods and probable financial schemes, and on that it is advisable
that the view of the Government should be in the main expressed.
Before it is expressed it is advisable that the point raised by Mr.
Deakin should be met, and I trust mutually satisfactorily cleared
away. The Government think that as so many Colonies are all com-
peting for emigrants from the same source it is very very difficult to
give financial assistance to one without more or less damnifying the
others. Up till now the Government at home have considered it best,
both to intending settlers and emigrants, above all to be fair to all
the Coloiiies, and that the agencies on this side should be directed
to give the intending emigrant all the essential facts in forming his
mind and in advising him as to where best he can take his labour,
and adapt his industrial aptitude to any particular Colonial demand
that for the moment is seeking his labour. Mr. Deakin will pardon
me if I say that he has rather misunderstood, and I do not think suffi-
ciently appreciated, the extent to which the Board of Emigration
have done this particular ferm of work. If Mr. Deakin will look — as
he often probably has looked, but I would ask him to look again- — at
many of the really excellent specimens of literature that are issued
by the Board of Emigration on this side, he will find we almost vie
with Canada both in the versatility and the excellence of our advice
to emigrants and settlers. I can assure Mr. Deakin and the Confer-
ence that every step is taken by the Board of Emigration to give all
the people in this country who intend to settle elsewhere, facts such as
cannot be challenged, because the Board realise that much of the
diminution that in recent years has taken place in the number of
emigrants from the Mother Country to some of the Australian Colo-
nies, is due in the past, either to private, public, or semi-public agen-
cies misrepresenting the Australian fields of labour, and to this infor-
mation being allowed to go uncontradicted or uncorrected. The re-
sult is that suspicion of certain Colonial fields of labour has grown
up which can only be removed by the Board of Emigration itself being
almost painfully precise in acquainting people with what the real
conditions arc. I do not think that in the particular Queensland case
anything more than that has been done. Mr. Deakin was rather severe
upon the Board of Emigration for what I believe is after all only an
exceptional incident, and one that I trust may never occ\:r again. I
would like to point out to Mr, Deakin, that the circulars and hand-
172 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. boi ks issued by the Emiprration Office, whicli are numerous and cir-
"^ jg^P'' ' culate through many ramifications, are never issued before the proofs
of tiicse publijations are previously sent to the Agents-General them-
Emigration. sdres; and in many cases the Agents-General are asked, and they are
(Mr^ YQYj willing in the majority of cases to respond, to revise the actual
proofs and correct the draft literature and information which is sub-
'Diitted to them. I can only say with regard to the Queensland inci-
dent, that there the Home Government, through its Emigration De-
partment, did what I think was nothing but bare justice to people
who were likely to be attracted to this particular form of labo\ir. If
Mr. Deakin would allow me, I would like to read the first notice in
March. It says : " Free passages by the Orient Eoyal Mail Line
" steamers are now offered to hona fide farm labourers, and their fami-
" lies, to whom employment is guaranteed on arrival at full wages
" current in the State. The Queensland Government, in addition to
'■ the passage, undertake to take care of such persons until they are
" safe on the farms where work has been arranged for them. Notifi-
" cation has already been given by the Government to intending em-
" ployers that farm labourers will not be indented unless the wages
" offered are considered satisfactory by the Executive Government of
"the State; information as to this sum can now be obtained at
" the Agent-General's Office, London. It will probably save many
'' applicants time and trouble to be informed that as the Government
" are indenting this labour for employers in the agricultural industry,
" there is an implied promise that the labour will be up to the stan-
" dard of an ordinary agricultural labourer, and that for the conces-
" sion of a free passage and constant employment on arrival, appli-
" cants must come strictly within these conditions and must be what
'' is generally known as farm labourers, i.e., healthy men who have
" been accustomed to work at some form of farming operations." I
respectfully submit that that is a clear, bald, and truthful presenta-
tion of the conditions under which the labour was to be employed
there. On April the 12th, shortly afterwards, the Board of Emigra-
tion sent out a revise, which was as follows: " The Queensland Gov-
" ernment has a system of free passages to hona fide farm labourers
" and their families who are approved by the Agent-General in Lon-
" don, and guarantees them employment in the State at full wages ;
" but up to the present the indents for such passages have been limit-
" ed to men willing to work on the sugar farms in the north. The
" climate there is hot and moist." I gather that Mr. Deakin expressed
the same view.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.
Mr. BURNS : " The climate there is hot and moist in the rainy
" season from January to March, and hot and dry at other times, and
" is very different from that to which farm labourers are accustomed
" in this country. It is very riuostionahle, therefore, whether they
"would be able to work on arrival under tlio tropical conditions that
"prevail in North Queensland. The work of harvesting and crush-
" ing cane is still more trying, and is paid for at a higher rate. The
" free passage emigrant need not engage in it imless he wishes ; and
" indeed the work is not suitable for persons from this country who
" have not resided for some time in the tropics." I venture to say that
botli the original document and the revision sent out by the Board
of Emigration are in accord with the statement made by Mr. Deakin
COLOMAL COXFERENCE, 1007 173
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
himself here. The Board of Emigration thought it desirable that the Sixth Day.
people going to this particular tropical sugar belt should not be in ^^''^qm'^'''
any way under any misapprehension as to the kind of labour that they L
would have to do, because our experience here is that one grumbling. Emigration,
sore-headed, dissatisfied emigrant in a field of labour, when he has (Mr.
been attracted there through too glowing a description of what would Bums.)
happen to him when he arrived there, does more harm to the general
flow and direction of emigration to that and other fields of labour
than anything you can possibly conceive. The Board of Emigration,
I think, with fairness and impartiality, decided that it is far better
to tell the emigrants even the unpleasant truth, if it be the truth,
as to the conditions of labour under which he can be employed, than
to buoy them up with rosy descriptions that cannot be realised, of
which, when communicated back as it always is by letter through the
discontented one's complaints, the effect is to damage that particular
district for 10, 15, or 20 years. The case quoted by Mr. Deakin is
an evidence in my judgment of the great care and truthfulness and
courage that the Board of Emigration has shown in this particular
case. I may say that the Government of Queensland have expressed
their appreciation so much of circulars and reports of the Board of
Emigration, that only recently this year they have ordered 25,000
copies of the Board of Emigration's Handbook oVi the Colony. I can
only say that in my judgment the Board of Emigration were well
within their rights. It would have been a permanent injustice to the
Queensland labour field unless they had made their revise. I am con-
vinced that this incident will still further induce the Board of Emi-
gration to place themselves more closely in touch with the Agents-
General before issuing any informaton, or making any correction, or
rectifying any mis-statement, and they will do their best to instruct
the settler and the emigrant to find work under conditions that will
be beneficial to him and we trust not detrimental to the Colony to
which he goes. •
Having dealt with that incident, may I say a word or two — be-
cause it is pertinent — on the general question as to practical means.
Mr. Deakin said that there was an obligation to direct actively to
the Colonies the surplus people of the Mother Couijtry, and I think
he suggested passively to divert people who intended to go elsewhere
to places within the British Empire. I can only say that the emi-
grant decides this in the main practically for himself, and to the ex-
tent that we would over-persuade him in making up his mind say,
to go to Canada as against Australia or New Zealand, to that extent
we would give his mind a bias in a direction that we ought not.
Mr. DEAKIN: No one suggested that.
Mr. BURNS : No, the business we think, of the Home Govern-
ment is that as all the Colonies are competing for emigrants and set-
tlers practically of the same type, what we have to do is to tak« the
claims as set forth by the Agents-General themselves who want those
claims for labour submitted to the Old Country. It is the business
of the Agents-General and the Home Government to co-operate with
each other as to where, how, and in what best way that information
can be placed before intending settlers and emigrants, and I can as-
sure the Conference that efiicient though the steps of the Board have
been in the past, we hope considerably to improve upon our present
methods and agencies by means of which the common desire of this
Conference can be secured.
174 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. Now, may I say a word about the type of emigrant. I know
^^'^^^^P'^^'' that ilr. Deakin, and also Dr. Jameson. Mr. Moor, General Botha,
1907 . ^
L and Sir Joseph Ward, and I know it from practical observation in
Emigration. Canada on the subject, — want the same type of settler and emigrant.
(Mr. They want the farmer, they want the good skilled labourer, they
urns.) ^ant the skilled handy-man, they want the domestic servant, and, in
many cases, they want the platelayer, and the heavy lifter, and the
man whose physique is adapted to the opening pioneer work of con-
structing public and private works on a big scale in new countries.
You also want skilled artizans, mainly of the building trades. Now,
in this particular matter, the Colonies, to a great extent, can be
helped by the Old Country, because at this moment we have I am
sorry to say, through reasons that I need not go into, a very large
number of men in the building trade who are slack of employment.
TVje also have, proportionately to the Colonies, more surplus un-
skilled labourers than any of the Colonies possess, and it does seem
to me that if those men in the building trades, who are a type of
men that many of the Colonies pre-eminently want in opening up new
countries, were more closely informed as to the colonial requirements
of labour, we should see a very considerable number of men of the
building and similar trades seeking work in Colonies where their
work would perhaps*be for the moment better, and perhaps ultimately
more regular than it is now. But the supply of labour must flow
without preference or pressure on the choice of the individual emi-
grant to wherever he chooses to go. It is interesting that this Con-
ference should know that in the last two or three years when emigra-
tion from the Old Country has gone up enormously by all the
agencies, whether it be distress committees, or boards of guardians,
. or private or public bodies, or trade unions, or any other association,
and there are nearly 1,000 agencies in this country taking directly or
indirectly an active part in sending people out of the country, mainly
to the Colonies; 95 or 97 per cent of the total people that have left
through private, public, or semi-public agencies the Mother Country
for external Dominions have gone to Canada or to the other Colonies.
But the enormous volume of emigration that has gone to the United
States, relatively is not as great as it was, and is rapidly diminishing.
For instance, only a few years ago, and this Sir Wilfrid Laurier will
be pleased to hear, in 1888 Canada had 11 per cent of the emigrants
that left the Mother Country, and America had 72 per cent; to-day
Canada has 31 per cent and America 47 per cent of the total. So that
the object this Conference has at heart, namel.v the training and
directing the surplus population from the United Kingdom to Bri-
tish Colonies is being attained without too much organisation and
without too much obvious regulation.
The other point is this: I trust that this Conference will realise
what my experience suggests, and what I think the facts inform us
upon, which is that over-zealous attempts to get people to emigrate
very frequently do more harm than good. They very often attract
the wrong type of people to the right place, and the result is that
disappointment cns\ies, and the permanent steady flow of regular
emigration is damaged thereby. I trust that the Conference will
agree with us that emigration by settlement of communities of men
is not a desirable thing. The northern farmer in another connection
said : " The poor in a loomp is bad," but the poor in a lump taken
from one country and from special districts and of n particular class
to another is worse. I do not care whether you emigi-atc bodies of
COLOMA.L COSFEREXCE. I'JUl 175
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
rich men from England to Canada or Australia, even if you can get Sixth Day.
them all to live together in their new home, which is doubtful, that jg^^"^
in itself is not so beneficial as it would be if they were spread over a
largo area. In any case, to take large communities of men from one Emigration,
district of England and to dump them down in any Colony is, in my ti^^"^' %
judgment, a mistake. What we have to do is to guide and direct the
individual, let him go where his appetite inclines him to go, but if
any attempt, if Dr. Jameson will pardon me for saying it, of close
settlement, of land settlement, of settlement by communities of men
such as philanthropic associations have attempted in some parts of
Canada and America, is, in my judgment, a mistake, as experience
will prove. Outside the Doukhobors. in Canada, I have leamt of no
case of a community of emigrants that was at all worth the money
spent upon it. or which in any way justified the enthusiasm or the
hoj)es raised on its behalf.
Dr. JAMESON: Close settlement does not mean large settle-
ments going out. It could be very well carried out by individual emi-
grants.
Mr. BrTRiSrS : Yes, I know, but that is a very risky experiment.
I mean there should not be 1,000 men from one part of England taken
to some particular part in any of the Colonies. It is best to mix
them up. ihey have ditterent tastes, they have dilterent habits, and
the tendency ol these settlements, however large, or, however small, is
tor them to become a first-rate collection of social and political cranks,
ending in lailure and disappointment, and waste of the money spent
upon them.
Dr. JAMESON : Excuse me, there is some misapprehension as to
what i mean by close settlement. The fact of the matter is, in South
Alrica our land is in large areas, and it is the large farms of 2,000 or
S,000 acres, and so on, which exist until we get irrigation, as men-
tioned by (ieneral .Botha, so that we can, like in Canada and in Aus-
tralia, i believe, get a family to live on 160, or 20, or 10 acres even.
That is my idea of close settlement.
Mr. BUKJSIS : 1 understand the point is, that in a tropica- or semi-
tropical climate agriculture can only be carried on by irrigation and
more or less artificial means, and you have more or less to pack your
people in certain areas, because there the irrigation scheme is. That
1 do not object to, but to ask that a certain block of population should
be taken, or a certain class of population should be taken from the old
country for that particular work, in my judgment will ultimately
prove to be a mistake. It leads to industrial, social, mental and moral,
disadvantages that we need not enlarge upon at this particular mo-
ment.
This brings me to the point as to what the form of the co-operation
can be. The settled policy of Parliament, it is well I should inform
the Conference, has been not to vote State money for emigration.
Although local bodies, boards of guardians, distress committees, and
others, have power and exercise it, as I have indicated, to vote public
and voluntary money to emigration and settlement. Parliament has
always been against a State subsidy for emigration to any or to all of
the Colonies. 1 may give an instance of the kind of thing that is
done. Under the Unemployed Workmen's Act the distress committees
in the year 1906 sent out 3,875 persons at a cost of 11. per head, part
State, part local, part private money. In 1907 that will be consid-
176
COLOyiAL CONFERENCE. 1907
Sixth Day.
25th April,
1907.
(Mr.
Burns.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
crably more. Xhe boards of guardians in the last ten years have sent
out 3,588 children, and if I may say so, these, in my judgment, are
perhaps the best form of emigrants and settlers, looking ahead, that
Emigration, the (Jolonies could possibly have. Dr. Uarnardo's agency has sent
out 18,000, and nothing pleased me more when I was in Canada than
to hear that of these 18,000 children that had been sent out, 95 per
cent were not only doing well, but were doing hrst-rate in many cases
and more than satisfied those with whom they were settled. It is in-
teresting for us at this moment to know that even only last year there
were 19,000 people in Canada who wrote to the Canadian Board of
Emigration for children, boys and girls, from the Mother Country.
Un that some of the gentlemen of this Conference might say : " But
what about their condition V On that I think this Conference ought
to be assured of this fact that the people who have charge of them
here, whether they be guardians or private or public agencies, do
everything within their power not only to see that the children are
physically fit, but that they are trained and equipped for their new life,
and I know no form of diversion of population that would be produc-
tive of so much good to the Colonies and to the Mother Country as an
increase in the number of children going to the new settlements be-
yond the seas.
I can only say in conclusion that Canada, which has recently given
no assistance towards the cost of passages, has perhaps shown the
Mother Country and some of the other Colonies the way of handling
this particular question. Nothing could be better than the way in
which the Canadian Emigration Authorities, by information, by cir-
cular and by literature, have done their work, and in so far as the
Old Country can live up to Canada in this particular regard, the
Board of Emigration will be disposed to do so. The Colonies repre-
sented here to-day can rest assured that if they care in any form to
make any representation to the Home Government as to what sliould
be done, the Board of Emigration, the Local Government Board, and
the Board of Trade, will be only too ready to respond to any sugges-
tion or information they may give. The reorganisation of the Emi-
gration Board itself is under the consideration of the Government.
The recommendation by the Settlements Committee that State
grant for five years should be passed by the Imperial Parliamtmt, is
under the consideration of Ilis Majesty's Government at the present
time, and my last word is that if the Colonies think that any of the
work done by any of the home agencies is of such a character that it
may be improved upon, the Government will be only too pleased to
respond to such advice, suggestion, or information, always relying
upon this cardinal fact that the Old Country cannot be expected to
show a preference in the matter of emigration to any of the Colonies,
and will do her best to treat all of them fairly and to bring before in-
tending settlers and emigrants the real facts of what the Colonies
offer them. For the moment beyond that the Home Government is
not disposed to go.
Sir WILFRID LATTRIER: ^V^len this resolution of the Common-
wealth of Australia was first brought to our attention I read hero:
"That it is desirable to eneouriigo British emigrants to proceed to
"British Colonies rather than foreign countries. That the .Imperial
" Government bo requested to co-operate with any Colonies desiring
" immigrants in assisting suitable persons to emigrate." As I have
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901 171
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Stated already the first paragraph, as to which Canada has no dis- Sixth Pay.
senting voice, does not require any discussion. But we thought with 25th April,
regard to the second paragraph, that perhaps it was intended by the ''
Government of Australia that the Imperial Government should be Emigration,
invited to co-operate financially in a scheme for bringing emigrants (Sir Wilfriil
to the now Countries beyond the seas. We approach this subject from I'^urier.)
the point of view of Canada, with the statement that we have no
grievance at all. At the present moment we are quite satisfied with
our position in that regard. In fact, we have undertaken ourselves
to manage our own immigration, and so far, we have no reasons to
complain of the result of our efforts; but of course it goes without
saying, that if the Imperial Government were prepared to help and
assist us financially we would be only too glad to co-operate with
them. Listening to Mr. Deakin very carefullj' T did not understand
that he had even any such project in his mind. If I properly ap-
preciated the tenovir of his remarks, he rather thought that the Im-
perial Goverinueut under existing circumstances were not doing all
they might do, or were doing it in a way which was not satisfactory
to the Government of Australia. For my own part I would be glad
to hear again from Mr. Deakin what practical suggestion he has to
nuike to implement what is contained in this paragraph.
Mr. DEAKIN: Sir Wilfrid, our difficulty was when we considered
the schemes that we ourselves would like to see adopted, how far we
ought to apiiroach the Imperial Government with any definite sug-
gestion, inasmuch as they might consider that this implied at all
events that we were better judges of their business than they were.
Kow we can only claim that at our end of the immigration move-
ment we are entitled to speak from our own experience as to what we
want. But as to the particular means by which immigration could
be fostered here, we have a good deal of hesitation. Our first idea
was a reform of existing methods. I have no personal quarrel with
the Emigration Board. I have spoken upon information supplied
me, and am not singling out the Emigration Board or the Depart-
ment with which it is associated from any other Department. But
our experience in Australia is — and it may possibly be not confined
to the Commonwealth — that it is not possible to constitute a pxiblic
department of officials for any purpose, however excellent, of any
men, however capable, who will not sooner or later, and probably
soon, lose touch with the changing conditions of the practical work
with which they were originally created to deal. For ourselves it is
only by constant Parliamentary vigilance, by perpetual Parliamentary
criticism, by influence brought to bear through the responsible ifin-
isters. that we are able to keep our own departments in some degree
up to the requirements of our own country. I should suspect that the
experience everywhere is the same. It is not the fault of the indi-
vidual so much as it is the fact you cannot have a department with-
out a system, and when once you stereotype the system you begin to
check the individual energy, initiative power and free criticism of
the men engaged in it. While you cannot live without bureaucracy,
and while the democracy needs it specially, with ;is the constant atten-
tion of the representatives of the people is required to be devoted to
our own departments. We have to confess that they do not satisfy
lis. Consequently, if I may be pardoned for the digression, I am not
trying to select the Emigration Board for comments which I have
had occasion to make upon other departments. There will always be
58—12
178 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Deakin.)
Sixth Day. difierences between ourselves and our departments. While depart-
1907^"^ ments are necessary agencies of governments, they are in my opinion
in inevitable opposition, so to speak, to the re-adaptations and fresh
Emigration, adaptations called for by the circumstances of each case. I do not say
ii?vT^ \ ^^^* ^°y °^^ statement in that objectionable circular was untrue, but
I do say that to send it out without adding the facts that the whole of
the crushing always has been done by white labour, that the greater
part of the harvesting is now being done by white labour, and the
whole of it will be, is misleading. The greater part of the work of
an ordinary sugar cane farm is now being done by small farmers upon
their own land who make an arrangement for the disposal of their
cane, yet this circular might suggest that white labour is being ex-
cluded and cannot be expected to cope with this industry. The cir-
cular is bad because of what has been omitted. In that letter I have
read there is an extraordinary intimation that people need to be
warned off from what white people are already doing with profit to
themselves and to the country. That appears to me to be an inexcus-
able act. I do not put it stronger than that. Mr. Burns, if I may
say so, made the best possible defence that could be made, and in so
doing has discharged the duty of a Minister, of speaking for those
who cannot speak for themselves much better than they could. All
I can say is, I am confident if !Mr. Burns had been dealing with this
question, it would have been dealt with in a different fashion. Any
!^[inister issiiing a circular would have framed it in a different
fashion. I do not wish to dwell upon that, but I must say there is a
good deal to be expected not only at this moment, because we come
here to criticise, but from that perpetual reformation of departments
which we find necessary in Australia. — I am confining my criticism
to my own country, because that cannot possibly give offence — im-
parting to them fresh life and fresh direction so as to keep them in
touch with changing circumstances. I have reason to suspect that
the need is just the same elsewhere.
With a great deal Sir Joseph Ward said, and I also wish to asso-
ciate myself in his criticism, I concur. Certainly, when we ask for
the co-operation of the Imperial Government, we ask for effective co-
operation in directing and not in discouraging emigration. Then
Sir Wilfrid Laurier implies that we ought to specify the means to be
employed. We think a more effective organisation here is wanted
under the direct control of the British Government, or some of its
Ministers, with that closer touch with the various representatives of
all the Dominions which Mr. Burns has been good enough to fore-
shadow for us. We anticipate a great deal can be accomplished by
this means, and we confidently expect it will be accomplished. I am
sure, as far as Mr. Burns is concerned, it will be done, because he is
an active and practical working man in this and other respects. But
we go further; we do not wish to press unduly upon the Imperial
Government, but we look upon improved means of communication
generally, by joint action between the Mother Country and the several
Dominions, as a very important moans, not only of assisting emi-
gration, but also trade. We are perfectly aware that subsidies are
now given to shipping which compotes with British shipping, both
for passengers, cargo, and even emigrants. We have a line running
to Australia to-day under the British flag, which is really in the
main portion of its capital and interest, T understand, a foreign line
of steamers. We think encouragement should be given to vessels not
.only flying the Britisli flag, but actually British, so as to enable
COLONIAL COXFEREKCE, 1907 179
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
freights to be cheapened, and passenger rates to be lowered. It is Sixth Day.
only upon the last economy upon steamers running to all the domin- ^^^'ign^'"^'''
ions, or that should be encouraged to run to all the dominions requir- L
ing colonisation. We venture to think a good deal can be done by co- Emigration,
operation between the different Governments in tliat direction, and (Mr.
indeed by improvement of all the means of comnuinication, which *" '°"'
outside this chamber, Sir Joseph Ward and Sir Wilfrid Laurier have
been recently discussing. We say improved agencies between the
Mother Country and ourselves, improved means of communication,
closer touch with our fellow colonists, improved shipping services,
cheap and rapid, are among the means by which a population might
be attracted to British countries instead of to foreign countries. We
appreciate Mr. Burns' criticism of communities when their settle-
ments are separated by langunge and by strongly-marked customs from
the rest of our people, but communities from the white races grouped
together under one ilag, whether British or French Canadian or
Africander, as the case may be, so long as they are our own people,
although we have no urgent desire for communities, we are yet so very
much in need of population that if it could only be obtained by that
means, we should be sorry to disapprove it. We would be quite will-
ing to see some communal settlements, not in the strict sense, but
joint efforts for settling individiials who choose to group themselves
together on particular areas of land. While we do not favour it, we
should not fear it, and would rather face it, speaking for Australia,
than not acquire population at all. It is only where the eommunit.v
is, so to speak, kept within a ring fence by reason of language, blood,
habits, and practices, that we see grave reason to apprehend danger.
Any other reasons arising from the settlement of communities woiild
appear to be of a slighter character which might be ignored. We wish
the British Government would also favour subsidiary educational
means, such as have been recently proposed, seeing that the schools
and through the schools the children in this country were brought into
closer touch with the realities of life in the outer portions of the Em-
pire. Mr. Burns spoke — and I think so far as any of us know we
all echo his commendation of the transport of children by Dr. Barn-
ardo and others to Canada, and elsewhere. That appears to have been
a brilliant success. Is not the suggestion closely connected that in all
the schools of the United Kingdom there should be sufficient teaching
with regard to the Dependencies of the Empire, so that as the children
grow up, if they wish to make a choice of a new home, they will have
the knowledge necessary to make that choice. We are undertaking the
necessary obligaton in all our schools of teaching not only British
history, but British geography, in order that they may understand the
course of events in the Mother Country, the centre of our race. In
the schools, among the children, by operating through your Boards of
Guardians and other bodies to whom Mr. Burns referred, by operating
through a rejuvenated Emigration Board here, associating it with the
Central Emigration Board in this city, by assisting the means of com-
munication and particularly shipping — these are among the methods
which are open to the British Government to choose. Any or all of
those we would welcome, so far as Australia is concerned. We are
prepared to co-operate in any and every way in order to encourage
emigration.
Mr. BURNS : May I say a few words on the last point Mr. Deakin
has raised ? I have had placed in my hand this morning some post-
58— 12J
180 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sixth Day. cards received by the Board of EniigTation from school children, in
25tli April, response to a circular the Board of Emigration issues. Here^are 50
L or 60 postcards from children, received this morning, and it is only
Emigration, typical of what they receive : ' Kindly send to above address the cir-
(Mr. culars on Canada and Australia."
Burns.)
Mr. DEAKIX : I hope you will not send the circular of April 12th.
Mr. BURNS : If we send the one of April 12th, I think we will
have to put a footnote in, that we omitted, in order not to damage
Queensland, any reference to the fact that Kanakas have previovisly
been employed in this particular industry.
Mr. DEAKIN : We do not mind that a bit. Put it in by all
means. We are determined to have a white Australia, and mean to
keep it white. We have voted 12,000/. of Commonwealth money in
order to deport those men comfortably to their homes and families.
We believe it is good for the Islands to have them back, and good for
their people that they should return and live among them. For our-
selves, we will have a white Australia, cost us what it may. We are
anxious to let everyone know it.
CHAIEMAX : There is one resolution before the Conference pro-
posed by the Commonwealth. We agree to the first part. I think,
as far as my colleague and I are concerned, we are quite prepared to
accept the second,
Mr. r. E. MOOR: If I may be allowed to interrupt, I think it
would, perhaps, be better if that second part was more elaborated in
the direction that Mr. Deakin pointed out, so that the public should
realise what the resolution really means. Towards the end of Mr.
Deakin's exposition of what they did mean, he pointed out the value
of co-operation as regards shipping and reduction of freights. I think
if one or two indications were just enumerated in that resolution it
would be of great use.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Surely that is a matter to come up later
on in connection with trade ? I would not mix them.
CHAIRMAN : I think it would be a little difficult to take it up
now.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : I am in the hands of the Conference, but it
seems a pity that the public should not know what is meant, even if
it is only one or two headings of what we intend by the co-operation.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : For myself I would support the resolution
as a whole. I see no objection whatever to it upon the understanding
that so far as the second paragraph is concerned — having reference to
New Zealand alone, for which I am speaking — that the co-operation
would be upon application from a Colony,
Mr, DEAKIN : Necessarily. There nuist be two people to co-
operate. If New Zealand does not co-operate, plainly it does not
desire it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : There is one Colony liere suggesting co-
operation, and the other side is the Jfother Country.
Mr. DEAKIX : " That any Colonies desiring, "
Sir JOSEPH WARD : " Be requested to co-operate with any
Colonics desiring to co-operate." The understanding is, we have first
to express our wish to co-oporate.
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 181
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Dr. JAMESON : ^V^lat it means, after ilr. Burns's speech, is, Sixth Day.
that this co-operation is limited to good wishes. igo?*"' ' "
!Mr. BURNS : And methods afTecting the distribution of informa- t. '■ T-
Emigratiou.
tioii- (Sir Joseph
Dr. JAMESON : And the Board of Emigration reorganisation
is under consideration at the present moment.
CHAIRMAN : That is in the report of the Committee.
Dr. JAMESON : With regard to the subsidising of ships, I
understand ^Ir. Burns to say that Parliament has set its face against
anything of the kind.
ilr. BURNS : Tes ; it has been the settled policy of Parliament
for some years.
Mr. DEAKIN: Not in connection with the subsidising of ships.
Mr. BURNS : But, in connection with emigration, not to grant
votes of Imperial money for emigration.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : But as regards South Africa, owing to the
practice of the Colony as regards our contracts, we have been able
to obtain contracts highly advantageous in respect of immigration. I
have no doubt Canada and Australia, if not already doing it, could
use co-operative influences there which, although not directly State-
aided, would, by means of State work, be brought about. I think it
is a pity to simply put down an arbitrary condition and say, we are
going to have nothing to say to it.
Mr. DEAKIN : What I think Mr. Moor means, and very properly,
is what we call a postal subsidy. That assists emigration and trade
because it encourages the rapid despatch of boats. So, while it is
not put forward in Great Britain for the assistance of either trade
or emigration, a postal contract, as a matter of fact, does help both.
Why should not that be systematised more?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Mr. Moor has brought it up, but it is
a much more involved question and embraces much more than emigra-
tion. I think with Mr. Moor that it is a matter which ought to be
taken up by itself before the Conference separates. I would not limit
it simply to emigration. There are many other considerations to be
taken into account, and I am quite with Mr. Moor on this point, that
this is one of the things we should discuss before we separate.
CHAIRMAN: As far as emigration is concerned, what is put in
the second part of this resolution, is a request to co-operate generally,
and that we are willing to accept. May I put it in this resolution
from the Commonwealth is accepted by the Conference?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The only objection I have to it is
that it is too vagiie.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: That is my feeling.
Mr. DEAKIN : I have given the reasons for the vagueness.
CHAIRMAN : Is it acepted ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I have no objection.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : I must say I am disappointed as regards its
present wording. It is very indefinite. If we could specify how this
could be done I think it would be of more practical importance to us
in the future.
182 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
l^^^th Day. g-j. JOSEPH WAED : I do not know what your method of work-
1907^ ' ' '"^S ^^' ■'• ^^^^ ^^ ^® would still go on through our High Commissioner
with the object of inducing people to come out to our country. For
^■j^'Sration- instance, with the great powerful and attractive Dominion of Canada,
Moore ) which is so close to England and lias such splendid advantages, with
their great organisation that they are going on with, we should all
have to carry out our own work on our own account if we desire to get
the class of people we require in our country. I do not see how you
could set up the machinery in the resolution unless you elaborate it
minutely, so as to help your country or my country to get what we
want. We are going to have the co-opeiation of the British Gov-
ernment impartially, as suggested by Mr. Burns. At the same time
we must go on with our own work.
Dr. SMAETT: Perhaps Mr. Burns would, with' the help of his
Department, draw up a Memorandum for the Conference, showing
how best the tenour of this resolution could be carried out, and also
what steps the Emigration Department woiild take to discourage
emigrants going from this country — going to anywhere except British
Colonies.
Mr. BTJENS : I think it may be taken generally that consciously
the British Government has never discouraged emigration to any
British Colony.
Dr. SMAETT: But without recommending them to go to any
British Colony, your Department ought to take up strongly the posi-
tion of discouraging them from going to foreign countries, and to
encourage them to go to the Colony of their choice, when so many re-
quire their services.
Mr. BUENS : The Conference has, by the adoption of the first
paragraph : " That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to
proceed to British Colonies rather than to foreign countries," met
your point.
Dr. SMAETT : No, my point is to know what steps your Depart-
ment proposes to take to carry out the tenour of this resolution.
CHAIEMAN: We will take the best steps we can. We could not
define them at the moment.
Mr. BTJENS : If those steps can be improved we shall be pleased
to hear from the Colonies.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIEE: The Conference is obliged to Mr.
Burns for his address to us on this subject.
Mr. DEAKIN: I am very happy to support Sir Wilfrid Laurier
in recognising the kindness and frankness of the Minister's address
this morning.
NATURALIZATION.
Nuturoli- CHAIEMAN: With regard to the subject of naturalization to
7.ation. vvhich we now pass I may remind yo>i that we sent out in December
last certain papers dealing with the subject, and the Home Secretary
is here to-day to make a further statement to you and to make a sug-
gestion as to the best manner in which the Conference might, perhaps,
deal with this subject in its present form.
Mr. HEEBEET GLADSTONE: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, we
are, I take it, in general agreement that it is most desirable to attain
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 183
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
uniformity in this matter by Imperial legislation as far as possible. Sixth Dav.
We recognise that this is a question of the greatest importance to the 25th April,
Colonies. Experience and scientific observation have taught us much
on the subject, but here in this country we have a dense established Naturali-
population, and the difficulties which will occur in connection with zation.
naturalization are not likely to be of a critical nature. To the Colo- (Mr.
nies with their vast unfilled territories, we recognise that questions of QioH^t„np >
immigration and naturalization admittedly must be of the greatest
moment. In what I have to say I propose to deal with the main con-
sideration and to avoid for the present the subsdiary points, and all
the more so because when you disturb the seemingly quiet surface you
very soon find that there are a series of rocks and shoals in law and
other directions in connection with this question. The draft Bill cir-
culated as a basis for this discussion I need not say we have no desire
to rush in any sense at all. It has been prepared for this discussion,
and I have no doubt the discussion will be fuU in every way. Our
wish in seeking uniformity is to cover by the Act which we have in
prospect as completely as possible all the ground which is common
to us all, both in the United Kingdom and in the Colonies ; and the
Bill itself re-enacts, consolidates, and, to a certain extent, amends the
existing law. In its construction we proceeded from the circumfer-
ence to the centre rather than from the centre to the circumference.
First and foremost, I would like to draw the attention of the Con-
ference to the fact that the Bill proposes to remove two principal
anomalies which have for a long time caused irritation and incon-
venience, both in the Colonies and in the Ifother Country. First of
aU, as the law now stands, a certificate of naturalization can only be
granted in the United Kingdom — excepting the case of a person in the
service of the Crown — to a person who has resided, and intended to
reside, in the United Kingdom. If he intends to go to the Colonies,
however closely associated he may be with British interests and Bri-
tish life generally, he cannot be naturalised. Therefore it comes to
this, that a wish on the part of this person to go to the Colonies in
itself becomes a disqualification. Conversely, if a man in the Colonies
is indeutified with Colonial interests, even if he is naturalised in that
Colony, he cannot qualify if he comes to the Mother Country until he
has resided here for five years. So that his Colonial connection is
again a disqualification for a period of five years during which he
cannot become a British subject. Our view is that these anomalies
are totally opposed to the principle of unity and solidarity within the
Empire with regard to this matter. We propose to deal with this in
clause 7 of the Bill, which provides that : " An alien who within such
" limited time before making the application hereinafter mentioned as
"has been under any Act hereby repealed or maj' be allowed by the
" Secretary of State, either by general order or on any special occasion,
" has resided in His Majesty's Dominions for not less than five years
" or has been in the service of the Crown for not less than five years,
" and he intends, when naturalised, either to reside in His Majesty's
" Dominions, or to serve under the Crown, may apply to the Secretary
" of State fc a certificate of naturalization." It is in its general
terms taken from the Act of 1S70, but substituting " His Majesty's
" Dominions " for " the United Kingdom." In that way we propose to
entirely remove this particular anomaly. The second leading anomaly
to which I have alluded lies in the fact that a certificate of
naturalization granted in a Colony takes effect only in that Colony.
184
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
Sixth Dav.
25th April,
1907.
Naturali-
zation.
(Mr.
Herbert
Gladstone.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
We propose to remove that by clause 26 of the Bill, the effect of which
in brief is this, that where conditions of naturalization in a Colony
are substantially the same as those required in the United Kin.edom,
an Order of His Majesty in Council may enable that certificate
granted in that Colony to have effect throughout the Empire. That
provision produces two main results; a certificate granted in the
Colonies in that prescribed way becomes valid in the United Kingdom,
and in the second place it becomes valid in other Colonies. By the
first result the second great anomaly to which I have referred is
removed.
Mr. DEAKIN:
colonies. "
" Colonies " covers more than ''' self-governing
Mr. HERBEKT GLADSTONE : That is quite true. I am talk-
ing in general terms now. That point certainly requires elucidation
"and discussion; and other similar points, for instance, as an illustra-
tion the meaning of the word "' Governor " in the Bill. Points of that
sort will require further discussion. I am only dealing now with the
general drift of our proposals. I think then that so far as the re-
moval of these anomalies is concerned, we do provide a certain basis
of principle for an Imperial Naturalization Law. The second result
of clause 20, to which I have alluded, namely, that a certificate given
in the Colonies is valid in other Colonies, has been the subject of
considerable criticism in the Memorandum which we have received
from the Cape drawii up by the Attorney-General of the Cape Govern-
ment. His point is that the Imperial law is too lax to be accepted as
a test of adequate conditions of naturalization in the Colony; and he
develops the criticism in two directions. He jioints out that, the dis-
cretion of the Secretary of State being absolute, there was nothing
in the law to prevent in the Mother Country a certificate of natura-
lization being given to undersirables who might even be criminals, and
in the second place to persons of non-European descent. In passing,
I might perhaps observe one remark in the Memorandum. The Cape
Attorney-General noted that at the time the Memorandum was written
there was no Act dealing with the immigration of aliens in this coun-
try. Since then, as is well known, an Act has been passed, and cer-
tainly with regard to undesirables that Act has had a considerable
operative force, and it docs arm the Government with large powers to
deal with aliens who are found guilty of crime in this country ; and
under that Act we have got rid of a large number of extremely dan-
gerous and unsatisfactory persons. So we are so much, at any rate, to
the good in that matter. Perhaps I may here deal with the point that
the law of this country is lax, or rather that the practice under the
law, the administration of it, is lax, because that is what it comes to.
I may just briefly describe to the Conference what our action is in
regard to this matter in my Department. Every applicant for a certi-
ficate has to give four references as to his elinracter. and he has to
give a fifth as to his residence. In every single case the most minute
inquiries are made as to his character, his position, his antecedents,
and his intentions. Of course, the inquiries are made in various
directions, and whenever tliero is any necessity wc make the inquiries
through the police, who arc the most convenient agents at out disposal
in the matter. We also lay down certain tests whicli we require the
applicants to pass; for exiunple, we have the pen(>ral test that the man
must be able to read and write. We hold that he has not a real claim
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, lOOy 185
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
to tlie advantages of citizenship unless he is able to read and write Sixth Dav
English. Although there may be a solitary occasion or two in which 2.ith April,
some exception is made to that, that is the general rule on which we
act. Then there is also a fee to be paid, if the alien is generally satis- Naturali-
factory, of 5/., before he can get his certificate. If there is any sus- zation.
picion of criminality on the part of the man, that suspicion has to be rr^^'^' .
dissipated as a conditon precedent to his obtaining his certificate ; Gladstone.)
and, as far as we know, no criminal has been naturalised in this coun-
try. Of course, we maintain whatever may be said about the pro-
visions of the law, that in effect our administration of it is by no
means lax, and would fulfil with regard to undesirableness and crime
the requirements which are suggested on the part of the Cape Govern-
ment. But it would be quite possible to consider whether certain
classes of criminal undesirables might not be named in the Bill as
being disqualified for naturalization. That is a matter which, we
should be very glad to consider, and, in fact, to put it briefly, we
might see how far we could express in law what, in fact, has been our
practice in its administration in this country. With regard to the
second point of the Cape Attorney-General, namely, his reference to
persons of non-European descent, in this country we have admitted
extremely few persons of non-European descent. It is a point, so far
as we are concerned here, which is not at all serious; and I would
like to remind the Conference that Natal, which has by law excluded
non-Europeans from naturalization, has accepted the United King-
dom's certificates as valid. A point has been raised in the Cape
Attorney-General's Memorandum with regard to the conditions pre-
vailing in Crown Colonies in regard to this matter, and he says it is
a vital consideration that Hong Kong, a Crown Colony, has no na-
turalization law, and that the Straits Settlements require no stated
period of residence, so there is nothing to prevent a Chinaman land-
ing there and at once getting his letters of naturalization, and if the
recommendation of the Committee is adopted, that it shall suffice to
declare intention to reside within the Dominion, that Chinaman can
at once proceed to South Africa, and can only be shut out by Act of
Parliament. Of course, that is a point that requires very serious con-
sideration, but I woultl suggest with regard to it that the Order in
Council under these circumstances would not be made, because the
conditions locally would not be so satisfactory as the conditions which
prevail in this country, which would be the test. The test really would
be the conditions which prevail in this country, and not the condi-
tions which might prevail in Hong Kong or the Straits Settlements
or any other Crown Colony. I would suggest to the Conierer^ce on
this point, which is, as I quite understand of great importance in
connection with this Draft Bill, that before an Order in Council is
issued there would be ample opportunity to consult the Colonial
Governments concerned ; and through the machinery, which I am
glad to say it is proposed to set up by the establishment of a Secre-
tariat, we should be able to ascertain the views of the Colonial Gov-
ernments concerned, as to whether the conditions of the certificate
were sufficiently satisfactory.
I do not like to go into further details at this stage. We shall be
glad to consider any suggestion. A number of detailed suggestions
were made in the Cape Attorney-General's Memorandum, most of
which have been dealt with and embodied in the draft Bill; so that
it is proposed to assimilate those suggestions which are now the law
in most Colonies with our own law. We recognise the force and
186
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
Sixth Day.
25th April,
1907.
Naturali-
zation.
(Mr.
Herbert
Gladstone.)
7-8 EDWARD VII , A. 1908
justice of the claim of the Colonial Governments to deal with special
diiEculties which affect them in varying ways, and with which the
Home Country is not directly concerned, or with which it is not
desirable or possible for us to deal ourselves. I would venture to sug-
gest that outstanding points, points for the most part of detail, but
still of very important detail, should be left to be dealt with by a
committee. Our desire is to make the Imperial Law as comprehen-
sive and acceptable to the Empire as possible, and we seek, in short,
willing agreement on a basis which will not interfere with the local
necessities and the legitimate desires of all the individual Colonial
Governments which are concerned in this question. I therefore would
venture. Lord Elgin, to suggest that this Bill might be referred to a
Committee, so that its details may be thoroughly considered by repre-
sentative men, and I would propose to move a resolution which runs
thus : " That, with a view to attain uniformity, so far as practic-
" able, an inquiry should be held to consider further the question of
" naturalization, and in particular to consider how far and under
" what conditions naturalization in one part of His Majesty's Dom-
" inions should be effective in other parts of those Dominions, a sub-
" sidiary Conference to be held if necessary under the terms of the
" resolution adopted by this Conference on the 20th April last."
Sir WILFRID LAUEIER : That is, perhaps, as far as this Con-
ference would propose to go. It is a very complicated question, and
I think it advisable to have a discussion upon it.
CHAIRMAN: You wish to discuss it further?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think so. It is most important and
most complicated.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It certainly ought to be discussed.
Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE: It is very complicated.
CHAIRMAN : We submitted this resolution strictly in the terms
of the decision of the Conference the other day with regard to our
future organisation, so that it might be carried out on those lines,
namely, that we should be responsible for seeing that an inquiry was
made at a subsidiary Conference held as soon as the inquiry might
be ready. We put it before you just now in case on those terms the
Conference did not wish to discuss it further at this meeting, it be-
ing a very technical matter, but of course if the Conference does
desire it, wc must try and arrange another day.
Dr. JAMESON: Could it be adjourned to one day next week,
when wo might have a copy of what Mr. Gladstone has told us?
CHAIR'MAN: Wo cannot discuss it next week.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I think we ought to have a general dis-
cussion upon it.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes, that general discussion might bo at a later
period, and then we shall have before us a copy of Mr. Gladstone's
address.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : If this matter went to a Committee before
wo had an opportunity of discussing "t, there are some points of
material importance certainly, to Now Zealand, which I should have
no opportunity of dealing with. I wish to deal with them, though
I can do so briefly, because it is a very complicated and difficult
matter and the proposals outlined by Mr. Gladstone in some respect?
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 187
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
are of a very far reaching character so far as my country is con- Sixth Day.
cerned. 25th April.
1907.
Mr. HERBEET GLADSTONE : May I say that I did not form-
ally move the resolution with a view to avoid a general discussion Naturali-
;' • 1 T 1 1 1 11 . . zation.
before we got to it, but 1 thought that as the hour was now late it /gjp Joseph
might be desirable to put my general suggestion before the Conference Ward.)
so that you should be in possession at any rate of our views in the
matter, and then the Conference conld take what course it thought
desirable.
CHAIRMAN: Then the Conference adjourns on this matter, and
the actual day to be fixed for that discussion to be left open.
Adjourned to to-morrow at 3.30.
188
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
2«'i April MINUTES OF PEOCEEDDCGS AT A DISCUSSION BETWEEN
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER AND OTHERS
REPRESENTING HIS MAJESTY'S TREASURY AND CER-
TAIN MEIIBERS OF THE CONFERENCE.
Held at the Treasury, Whitehall, Thursday, 25th April, 1907.
Present :
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Com-
monwealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smaett, Commissioner of Public Works
Cape Colony.
General the Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
The Right Honourable H. H. Asquith, K.C, M.P., Chancellor of
the Exchequer.
The Right Honourable W. E. Macartney, Deputy Master of the
Mint.
Mr. Walter Runciman, Financial Secretary of the Treasurj'.
Sir E. W. Hamilton, G.C.B., K.C.V.O., Permanent Financial
Secretary to the Treasury and Auditor of the Civil List.
Sir George Murray, K.C.B., Permanent Administrative Secretary
to the Treasury.
Sir Henry Primrose, K.C.B., C.S.I., Chairman of the Board of
Inland Revenue.
Mr. W. Blaix, C.B., and other Officials of the Treasury.
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G.,
Joint Secretary.
DOUBLE INCOME TAX.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I thought that, per-
haps, the most convenient point to begin with, siibjoct to your opinion,
was the double pa.ymeut of income ta.x. It touches you most, Dr.
Jameson, and you also, l[r. Deakin.
Dr. JAMESON: Very much indeed, and it will affect General
Botha very much more than it docs us, or will presently.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It does not just now.
Dr. Jameson ; perhaps you had better open that topic if it is con-
venient to you.
Dr. JAMESON: .Mr. Asquith, we have stated and re-stated this
case frequently and I think it is fairly rightly stated in our resolu-
COLOMAL COyFERENCE, J 907
189
Double
Income
Tax
(Dr.
Jameson.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tion: "That it is inoqiiitiiblo that income tax be levied in the United 25th April,
" Kingdom on profits made in the British Colonies and possessions, ^907.
" upon wliich income tax has been paid in such Colonies or posses-
" sions, and it is equally inequitable that income tax be paid in any
" British Colony or possession on profits made in the United King-
" dom npon which income tax has been paid in the United Kingdom,
" and that representations be made in the Federal Government to
" urge the repeal of enactments imposing double income tax on
" British subjects bv the laws of the separate States and Great Bri-
" tain."
I think yciw will remember. Mr. Asquith, that, about eight months
ago when I was at home, the De Beers Company came and put the
case before you. and I had the pleasure of seeing you afterwards and
we got at that time what, J am afraid, we rather expected to get —
an absolute non possiimiis. We recognise that judgment has been
given against us in the test case of De Beers by all the various courts
going up to the highest, so that, of course, as the law stands, we re-
cognise that we are liable. Wliat we ask is — and it is a ver> large
" ask, " no doubt — that there should be legislation introduced in the
Imperial Parliament altering the law. That is the only way in which
our people can get relief at all. At present the position turns on the
difference as to where profits are earned and where they are spent
practically, and we know that we can only get relief from this double
income tax npon income which is earned in the Colony, or in General
Botha's ease, where he has not got an income tax at present but pro-
bably may have later on, if in any case the monev is actually earned
in the Transvaal, when there are various shareholders outside the
Transvaal, not only here, but abroad — I mean, not only in the United
Kingdom, but in Europe generally — and General Botha takes the
view which we t.ake in Cape Colony, that if there is to be any taxa-
tion on those earnings, it ought to go to the State in which the earn-
ings are created.
I do not think I need elaborate the case. It is simply as to whe-
ther the Exchequer can see its way to introduce such legislation as
would exempt us. in Companies where the whole production takes
place within our Colony, from the taxation of shareholders living
there. There are two ways of doing the thing, as to shareholders liv-
ing in the Colony itself, and as to people living in England. The
usual method of collection at the present moment is that the Com-
pany deducts the total income tax, whether in the Colony or in
England, from the total amount of profits earned, and, therefore, the
Colonial shareholder is hit twice in onr case, and we think he ought
not to be; and the same in General Botha's case. Representations
have been made from the foreign shareholders in the particular case
of the De Beers Company where the test case took place against it.
Of course, the Colonial shareholder also feels it, and he has made
violent protest against it.
There is the point, possibly, that abroad or in the United King-
dom where mone.v is spent and the man living, he ma.v have to pay his
income tax, but surely for the Colonies themselves, for the individual
Colonial shareholder, it seems to be inequitable that he should be
taxed for money earned when those earnings are spent within the
Colony itself. Perhaps he never visits anywhere except in the Colony,
and yet he has to pay this tax to the English Government besides the
ordinary taxation he has to pay in his own country.
There is a small point also which was brought forward at that
190
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
2oth April,
1907.
Double
Income
Tax.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
time, that supposing the companies did not practically collect the in-
come tax for the Imperial Government here and that they had to col-
lect it from the individual shareholder themselves, which, of course,
would be in the power of the company, then probably the Treasury
here would lose a good deal of money. That is merely a small side
issue, and roughly the position is that I wish to press upon you, if
you see your way to it, that legislation should be brought in so as
to remove this inequitable tax, as we consider it to be, on the Col-
onial shareholders.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUER {io General Botha) :
Have you anything to say upon this topic?
General BOTHA : No, except that I quite agree with that.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Tou associate your-
self with what has been said ?
General BOTHA : Yes.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : It does not interest
you, Mr. Deakin ?
Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly, it interests us because there is a double
tax. It interests us quite as much as it does any other part of the
Empire, but we have not pressed it further because we understood (I
hope I may be undeceived) that your mind was absolutely made up
about it, and that there was no chance of our being exempted. That
is our position.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Of course, as Dr.
Jameson knows, he and I have talked about this before.
Dr. JAMESON : Sir Joseph Ward is here now, and he may have
something to say about it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I do not know what you have been dis-
cussing, but we have had an important question of what we think is
dual taxation up very frequently in our country, as to whether there
was a possibilty of reciprocity where your people come out who are
paying income tax legitimately here, and may reside for a time in our
country till the arrival of the period for collecting income tax ; they
invariably complain when asked to pay income tax in our Colony, and
we have that reversed of course ; people from New Zealand come to
the Old Country, and the question is whetlier it is possible to arrive
at the position of saying that we shall not charge an Englishman resi-
dent in our country who pays income tax if you say the same to a
New Zealander resident who comes to England. If we could arrive at
a mutual understanding upon that point it would be very satisfactory
to us. I admit it is a very difficult thing to do.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : It is a difficult thing
to do, but that is rather a different point from the one Dr. Jameson
liui' raised. J vill take a typicnl case, the ease of the De Beers Com-
p^'uy which has been held liable to income tax here, and I may point
out that the tax is a tax, not upon the shareholders, but
upon the profits of the Company; of course, indirectly no
doubt in the long run it is a tax which falls on the
individual shareholders, but the tax is collected here upon the
profits made by the Company, and the ground upon which the compnny
has been held liable is no new ground, it is quite as old as our in-
come tax legislation. It is that the Company has been found in point
of fact to be resident here, that is to sny. that although the mines
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 191
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
which it owns, and the operations for working: those mines are carried 25th April,
on in South Africa, what the Courts have held to he the head, the ^^**'-
controllinfr power, the directing power, the brains, and the nerve Double
centre of the Company is here in London, or at least within the juris- Income
diction of the United Kingdom, and it is always a question in each ^^'
case, a pure question pi fact, whether that criterion is or is not ^f t^e*"^
satisfied. Exchequer.)
There are a great many companies carrying on operations, for
instance, in the Transvaal, a great many gold-mining companies of
which that cannot be said, where the directing power, the real head
and centre and directing power is not here, hut is in the Transvaal,
the spot where the physical operations of mining are carried on, and
wherever that is the case the Imperial income tax is only exigible from
any part of the profits which is remitted to this country, and actually
received here. It is only when in point of fact the Courts come to the
determination with regard to a particular company, that the head and
centre of the operations are here that the Company is regarded as in
point of law resident or domiciled here, that the whole of its profits
comes within the reach of the income tax law. It is open to any
company to alter its arrangements in that respect if it is to its interest
to do so, but so long as the company conceives it to be in its interests
to carry on the main directing power of its operations within the area
of the United Kingdom, a matter which is entirely within its discre-
tion to determine one way or the other, it has always been the law —
it is no new law — in this country that the whole profits made as the
result of that company's operations are subject to income tax here and
the profits of the company as a whole are liable to be so charged.
I cannot hold out any hope that the Imperial Parliament will effect
any change in that principle of law. To do so would be to deprive our-
selves here of an amount which I should be very sorry offliand to
calculate, and also it would be to fly entirely in the face of the princi-
ple of our income tax law, which is that wherever a person, a natural
person or an artificial person, chooses for purposes of his or their own,
to domicile themselves in this country, to take the advantage of our
laws for the purposes of carrying on their trade, they are proper sub-
jects of taxation, and we cannot discuss the question amongst whom in
what part of the world the ultimate profits are divided.
We have many such cases, not only in connection with the Colo-
nies; we have many more cases in connection with foreign countries.
In South America, as Dr. Jameson knows, we have a great many
South American railways, and although the whole operation of the
railway as a railway is carried on in South America, the capital has
been, as a rule, very largely subscribed here, and the board of direc-
tors meets here, and the operations of the company are carried on here.
We tax those companies, although they are South American companies
in the same sense in which De Beers is a Cape Colony Company.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Do you tax in that case the individual in
London on the profits of the Company ?
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUER : No, we tax the Com-
pany upon its profits. We take the profits of the Company and tax
them.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Then does the individual upon his annual
income again pay on a proportion of these profits?
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: No; if the indvidual
has a claim for abatement or anything of that kind that is another n at-
192 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
2^th April, ter. We tax the profits of the Company, and then the Company hands on
'_L the burden of the liability, no doubt to the individual shareholder by de-
Double ducting from the dividend which would otherwise be payable to him
Income his proportion of the income tax. The thing we have to deal with
<Ch 11 ^^^ taxable entity, so far as we are concerned is not the individual
of the shareholder; we have no concern with him; it is the Corporation,
Exchequer.) the artificial person who is making the profits, and who, being a per-
son now under our law resident here, is subject to our income tax
law. It does not matter whether he owns a mine in Siberia or a rail-
way in South America or a mine in X^ew Zealand or South Africa,
the law is applied quite impartially to all and it is always a question
of fact in each particular case whether the constitution and the mode
of management of the Company is such as to make it effectively and
actually resident for the purpose here. If it chooses to transfer its
head, its centre, its brain and nerve power, to some other part of the
world so that it is no longer in point of fact resident here, then, of
course, our claim for income tax ceases, but in that respect the case
of the Company is exactly like that of the natural person; either the
one or the other have to be resident here and to carry on the main
directing power of their operations here to render themselves liable
to Imperial income tax.
I do not think that consisteutl.v with the general principles which
pervade and underlie the whole of our income tax law it would be pos-
sible for us to make a distinction in that respect, so that I am afraid
on that point I cannot hold out any hope that the Imperial Parlia-
ment is likely to alter the policy which has now been persistently and
consistently pursued for more than 60 years.
Dr. JAMESOX : That has just raised a point, Mr. Asquith. that
made us hope there might be a possibility of something being done.
We are certainly not here to look after the interests of South America
or these various places you have referred to. There is that awful
word ''Preference' which comes into this like many other things and
we are realising, as we are all here now, that the fact that there is a
partnership in the various portions of the Empire is becoming more
emphasised, and I cannot see a better example of partnership than if
we differentiated between the foreigner and the various Colonies on a
subject of this kind.
CHAXCELLOK OF THE EXCHEQUER: May I interrupt you
one moment? I suppose a very considerable number of the share-
holders in the De Beers Company are on the Continent of Europe,
are they not?
Dr. JAMESON: Yes, the shareholders, but then you told us .vou
are not dealing with the shareholders, but with the Company, the
corporate body.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : The shareholders are
the people who wotild ultimately benefit, wlien you come to the ques-
tion of preference. It is quite true that the operations of the Com-
pany are carried on in South Africa, but who are the people receiving
the dividends?
Dr. JAMESON: I do not care much who n>ceives the dividends
or how much they receive, but I <lo care that a big Company in a
British Colony shnidd be as successful as possible, and I feel that the
success of any other Companies following in its wake would be more
assured if this great benefit was given to tliem as a portion of the
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
193
1907.
Doable
Income
Tax.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Empire, leaving out, as you said yourself, the shareholder, and we do 25th April,
not care what the shareholder gets. From one point of view we
naturally care what the shareholder gets, but leaving him out alto-
gether and taking the corporate body with its operations within the
Colony, if it got a certain amount of benefits probably it would
benefit very much the people who are working in that Colony. There
is not the least doubt of that. You made it out to be something like
200,000Z. for one year which is taken, and of that 200,000?. a great
deal would go towards the working and good government of the Cape
Colony. It will not all go to the shareholders. We will do things on
a better scale if we are not taxed to that extent.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It would be an in-
crease of the dividend.
Dr. JAMESON: Take even the sentiment point of view repre-
sented by a very small amount of cash, it would be all helpfuK- Then
you said just now that of course the brain force is here, and that is
quite true with regard to the De Beers Company. I believe it has
been decided by the law courts, and it must be so, but you said that if
they did not like that they could move elsewhere. It has been dis-
cussed at the De Beers Board whether it would not be worth while
for the sake of saving some 200,000Z. a year that they should move
their ofiices out of London altogether. It could be done, I believe;
it would be rather difficult to move them out to Africa altogether,
but I believe that could be done; in fact there is a very strong
agitation on the part of a portion of the De Beers Company to move
the whole thing out to Kimberley, and I wish the.v would, and then
the only people who would pay income tax would be the British
shareholder who happened to be resident in England, and the tax
would have to be collected individually. That is where the agree-
ment I brought in just now would come in because you would prac-
tically get nothing, and it would be not only the De Beers Company,
but a large portion of the companies in South Africa are here with
their brain power and have to pay. They have not been tried yet —
but are going to be tried.
Sir HENRY PRIMROSE : There are a good many of them here,
but there are also a good many not here.
Dr. JAMESON: Really, the larger ones are a great deal control-
led from London.
Sir HENRY PRIMROSE: Yes.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Many of them are,
no doubt. I did not mean to imply that the whole were.
Dr. JAMESON: It would be rather too bad to frighten any of
them away. Perhaps the Treasury might lose more by frightening
them away than by making this concession to companies existing
within the Empire in the various British Colonies.
Of course, the position is q "^e as you say, Mr. Asquith, only we
want it altered. Here is the Memorandum from the Treasury of
1896, and they put it here perfectly simply, and that is why I began
by saying that we know without legislation we could not alter the
present position of things. " The tax in England is a tax upon in-
" come received in the United Kingdom, not earned, in that respect
" it appears, according to the statement of the Memorial, to differ
" from the income tax, established in the Colonies, which extends only
" to incomes earned in the country where the tax is in force." Now,
58—13
194
COLO:nIAL conference, 1907
25th April,
1907.
Double
Income
Tax.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
to us Colonists, it appears that that is a most equitable arrangement
that it should be a tax upon incomes earned in a country where the
tax is in force, and that is what we hope may be an indication to have
discussed, at all events, if not got any further.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUER : It would strike at
the very root of our income tax law, and that is the difficulty, you
see; logically it would go tremendous lengths.
Mr. DEAKrN : Are you not introducing a difference between
earned income and not-earned?
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : As regards small
incomes. The De Beers Company under no possible stretch of the
imagination could come into that category.
ITr. DEAKTN : Individual shareholders might.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : They can get the
benefit of the law.
!Mr. DEAKIN : I wanted to get that, because of your recent
Budget distinction between earning and not earning.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : That was not the
point of my remark ; the point of my remarks was totally different —
that in England iinder English law income tax is payable by every-
body resident here on profits wherever earned. The question whether
a company is resident here is a question of fact, as you know as a
lawyer, to be determined in each particular case, and if it is once held
that either a natural or an artificial person is resident here, then you
sweep the whole of his earnings into the net and within the ambit
of the law. That has always been the position of our income tax law.
Of course there is another way of giving a relief to the De Beers Com-
pany, but I daresay it would not commend itself to you. Dr. Jameson.
Dr. JAMESON : What is that ?
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUER: That the Cape Colony
should not tax it.
Dr. JAMESON : I think the De Beers Company should, perhaps,
be taxed more than it is for the benefit of the Cape Colony. I am
going to put some more on them this year when I go hack, and there-
fore I am very anxious that whatever is to be plucked out of them I
shall get for Cape Colony and not pass it over here.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : I quite understand,
and thoroughly sympathise with you, if I may say so. I am afraid
you must leave that now for the moment. ,T need not say I will care-
fully bear in mind all you have said.
Mr. Deakin, which of yotir resolutions do you prefer to take first ?
Mr. DEAKIN : I think the profit on silver.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUEE : You have our mem-
orandum ?
Mr. DEAKIN : I have.
Dr. JA'NfESON : Before you leave that other point, Mr. Asquith,
this is more or less a private Conference, and some of us would like
if you would cause your answer to be sent in as a Memorandui« to
the General Conference so that it may be brought up.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I quite understand ;
you naturally would like to raise it formally ?
COLONIAL COnFERBNCE, 1907
195
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Dr. JAMESON : Yes.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUER : I will see that is
done. You are now to deal with profits on silver coinage, Mr. Deakin.
25th April,
1907.
Double
Income
Tax.
PROFITS ON SILVER COINAGE.
ifr. DEAKIN : Tho Memorandum I have just had the opportunity
of reading I may have looked at before^ but really have had no chance
of fully considering. It contains a good deal which appears to me to
be arguable, and that might he an interesting pursuit, but I do not
know that it would profit us. Let me at once call attention to one or
two omissions from the Memorandum. In the first place, nowhere here
is any estimate or calculation furnished. First there is an interesting
discussion as to what is " profit " and what is not, and what indefinite
liabilities have to be provided for ; that is mere argument. Now, as
a matter of fact, it ought to be possible — T assume it is known — to
state what is the apparent profit up to the present time on the silver
coined in. for instance, the Colonies generally. Nowhere do we see
that, and without that the argument remains academic. Wlien refer-
ence is made to several statements here which can only have been
made on the faith of some such calculation more or less close having
been already carried out, one finds that it is not given. We are told
that under certain circumstances the present profit may disappear. I
assume these statements to be made with knowledge of what the profit
is, and what chances there are of losses occurring : we are left in the
dark. The supposition with us is that there is, and always has been,
a consideralile profit, and that there are profits still. If that could be
settled by actual figures, it would a good deal diminish our diffi-
culties in dealing with the matter.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQTTER : Are the figures you
wish for the total profits, or the annual profits, for a series of years,
or the profit made in respect of that part of the coinage which goes to
Australia and is used in Australia, or both ?
Mr. DEAKIN : I should like both, because one comes into the
other. The latter would show whether we are really misled by those
among us who calculate that there is a very considerable profit which
we have some title to claim.
CHANCELLOR OF TJJE EXCHEQUER : Of course as you
agree we have to take into account as a set-off the loss which is in-
curred in replacing gold.
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, that is reasonable. I would look at the
figures with the further admission that it is within the bounds of
possibility that there may be, though we hope there will not be, fliictu-
ations in silver which may affect the profit. We have that generally in
our mind, but really I feel quite unable to grapple with the practical
side of this question until we have some idea of what the actual earn-
ings are.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I shall be glad, if it
is possible, to let you have these.
Mr. DEAKIN : It would be a great advantage, and may I also
ask for some other information? There is an arrangement between
the Dominion of Canada and yourselves in regard to the silver coin-
age, which has obtained for a number of years. I asked my own
58— 13J
Profits ou
Silver
Coinage.
196
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
25th April,
1907.
Profits on
Silver
Coinage.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
officers but they could not tell me what that was, neither the nature
of it nor what its effect is.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Canada has a sub-
sidiary silver coinage, has it not of its own?
Mr. BLAIN: It is coined by the Mint here.
Mr. DEAKIN: And it is also now proposing to have a mint of
its own.
Mr. BLAIN: Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN: I assume if it is proposing to make a mint of its
own it is because they must think the business of minting more pro-
fitable than the returns which have hitherto been derived from this
arrangement with you. I merely assume that from this statement.
Mr. BLAIN: I thinli Canada wanted a mint of its own for much
the same reasons as Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN : We have got a mint of our own in that sense.
Mr. BLAIN: It is a branch of the Royal Mint, like the three
branch mints in Australia, that is proposed to be founded at Ottawa.
Mr. DEAKZN : It is proposed to have an institution there and to
coin locally.
Mr. BLAIN: That is all that is proposed in Canada.
Mr. DEAKIN: They will not derive any greater or less profit
than they do now?
Mr. BLAIN : No.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is really to put
them on an equality of status with you, and to have a little mint of
their own.
Mr. DEAKIN: I presume there is no objection to our knowing
what the nature of the arrangement that exists with Canada is.
Mr. BLAIN : The subsidiary silver coins for Canada are coined
for the profit of Canada, as far as there is profit arising from the
purchase of the silver, and they simply pay an allowance to the Mint
here that is sufficient to cover the cost of striking the coins. Mr.
Macartney would say what the allowance is.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: You charge them
three per cent., Mr. Macartney?
Mr. MACARTNEY: Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN: Are you in a position to say what profit they have
been gaining from that?
Mr. MACARTNEY: No, I should not like to say off-hand, but
there is profit, of course.
Mr. DEAKIN : I would be glad to know what it was.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: You understand it
is a subsidiary coinage.
Mr. DEAKIN: Quite. That makes it easier to calculate than
ours, but it affords a clue if you take into account the amount of the
coinage, the population, and so on.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: We will try and
furnish that to you.
i
COLOKIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 197
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: If we had those facts before us we would be able 25th April,
to argue in a more concrete fashion.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUER: Have you considered ^^3^^*^^.°°
the last paragraph? Coinage.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, we have recently called attention to the fact .„, ,,
that our half -sovereigns are getting shabby. We recognise that as a of the
charge against the coinage of silver. The profit upon it is ample to Exchequer.)
provide that.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHIIQUER: Hitherto, the old
gold coins have had to be tendered to the Bank of England, and we
have suggested what we thought might be acceptable to you, to allow
them to be tendered in Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN: That would be an advantage.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think there would
be a very distinct advantage in that.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes. If we could get the information I have
asked for, perhaps we might look at this again.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Very well. What
would you like to take next?
DECIMAL SYSTEM.
Mr. DEAKIN: There is decimal currency, still believed to be Decimal
disposed of by an interesting document of 1859. Sj-Btem.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Just before you
arrived here, we had a Debate this Session in the House of Commons,
not on decimal currency, but on decimal weights and measures.
Mr. DEAKIN : The metric system.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : It is more or less
related to it.
Mr. DEAKIN : They are looped together by this report of 1859.
The effect of that discussion in the House was ?
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : To show on the
whole a very adverse feeling to any change. The state of the law here
at present is, as regards weights and measures, that it is optional ;
anybody, if they please, can carry on their transactions on the decimal
nomenclature, or whatever you choose to call it, as regards weights
and measures.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : In England itself ?
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Yes ; it is optional,
but it is not compulsory, and some changes have been advocated by a
considerable body of opinion, principally amongst the Chambers of
Commerce. The advocates of the change have been advising that the
change should be made, allowing an interval for the transformation
from one system to the other, and the thing came to a head a few
years ago in the House of Commons, when a Bill was brought in, and
the thing was very thoroughly debated. I forget the exact figures.
Mr. RUNCIMAN : The Bill was lost by a large majority weeks
ago.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : A very considerable
198 COLO\IAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
25th April, majority in this new House of Commons, which is pretty fresh from
^^^^- the country, and I thought that was probably a fair indication.
Decimal 3^Xr. DEAION : " Fresh " in the sense you apply the word to
System. jj^^ggg
'Chancellor „ „„ ^
of the CIIANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : In both senses, per-
Exchequer.) ]jap3.
Dr. JAMESON : The option is very little used.
CHANCELLOK OF THE EXCHHQUEE : Very little.
Mr. EUNCIMAN : It is used in the engineering trades to some
extent.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : I think we had a
. 3ry interesting debate about it which, perhaps, you may find worth
reading — the report in " The Times " a few weeks ago. The strong
opposition came from the cotton trade ; I think they were the strong-
est of all.
Mr. EUNCIMAjSr: Yes, and the whole of the textile trades.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : The texti'e trades as
a whole, but the cotton trade in particular; they said it would involve
a complete revision of the whole of tlieir machinery as well as the old-
established price-list which has been slowly compiled during 50 years.
Mr. EUNCIMAN : And the reconstruction of their looms ?
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE: Yes, and, in fact, of
the whole apparatus of production, which would be so expensive and
involve during the process of transformation so much loss from capital
lying idle and the new capital which would have to be put into it. that
they regarded it as a thing which would be for the time being almost
disastrous to the cotton industry. The operatives and masters were
absolutely at one about it ; there was a most remarkable demonstra-
tion from the whole of that industry, and I think the woollen trade
was hardly less emphatic.
Mr. EUNCIMAN : The cotton trade is even more important, as
the English " count " is the standard for the world.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : That is quite true ;
it would affect India, and I suppose America, and you have always to
consider the United States in this matter. There is no tendency
whatever, as far as one can see, in the United States towards the de-
ciminal system, no really definite tendency.
Mr. DEAKIN : It is not like the coinage.
CHANCELLOE OF THE EXCHEQUEE : I am speaking of the
weights and measures. It is very difficult to separate the two ; they
are related very much to one another.
Mr. DEAKIN : As will be seen from our resolution, our Parlia-
ment contains a certain number of members who are deeply interested
in this, more or less from theoretical considerations; but the resolu-
tions both about the metric system and decimal coinage relate to their
use within the Empire. It never has been contemplated in relation to
either that we should set up a standard of our own, and that is why
we have to bring them forward conditionally. The resolution as to
decimal currency asks that it should be applicable to the wliole Em-
pire. Of course, a statement as strong as you arc able to yiake at the
present time, after your Parliamentary discussion, does not encourage
any debate on the merits.
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907
199
Decimal
System.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I, personally, was 25th April,
always rather what you would call an academic advocate of it. Some
of the groat thinkers are not, and Herbert Spencer, for instance, was
very much opposed to it.
Mr. RTJNCrMAN : He was a duo-decimalist.
Mr. DEAKIN : Our resolutions on this point direct us to press
for their use within the Empire in each case ; in each case they desire
an Imperial scheme. Mr. Asquith himself is theoretically inclined to it.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I was, but I am not
sure that I am now ; I am a little weakened in my views.
Mr. DEAKIN : .In any case it is sufficient, take whichever view you
please, if you tell us that there is no present prospect of either of the
systems being adopted. Is there any chance of this suggestion that
the manufacturers and traders should themselves institute an inquiry
being carried out ? Your colleague appeared to think it possible.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I am afraid as re-
gard three or four of the leading industries in this country you would
find it impossible, they would have nothing of the kind.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We have legislation affirming it in our
country subject to Britain adopting it.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Making it compul-
sory.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Providing it is adopted in Britain, other-
wise it would be no use to us.
Dr. JAMESON: It is the same with us; it comes up regularly
with us and it is " when the Imperial Government passes a measure."
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We have actually passed legislation giving
the Governor in Council power with regard to the matter.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is obviously a
thing in which one part of the Empire cannot move without the rest;
it must be independent and it is not worth doing unless on an
Imperial scale.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I concur that unless it is Imperial in its
operation there is no use troubling further about that.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I am afraid there is
no present prospect of that at any rate.
Mr. DEAKIN : In face of the attitude of the Mother Country
both the metric system and the decimal currency are temporarily
outside practical politics?
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I am afraid so.
STAMP CHARGES ON COLONIAL BONDS.
Mr. DEAKIN: You are still going to levy stamp charges on stamp
Colonial Bonds. Charges on
Colonial
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think we give you Bonds,
a good deal there.
Mr. DEAKIN: If you have no intention of altering that either,
why should we arg^ue?
200
COLONIAL COyPERENCE. 1907
2oth April.
1907.
Stamp
Charges on
Colonial
Bonds.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think for tlie rea-
sons stated here, and we make a very good ease, we have given you
under the Colonial Stock Act — as I had occasion to point out to you
the other day, and I do not want to exaggerate it at all — what you
ought to agree is very substantial.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is a preference.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is a preference of
a most substantial kind, as compared with all foreign securities. I
had a calculation made the other day for the purposes of the Bud-
get, and I was informed — and I think it is an under-estimation rather
than otherwise — that about 300 millions of Colonial Stock had bene-
fited by being admitted to the category of, and treated as, trust
securities.
ITr. DEAKIN : I notice, however, in this table, comparing the
prices in February 1900 and February 1907, the argument implies,
and I suppose it has a certain measure of correctness, that Consols
may be taken as a standard in respect of these securities, without
regard to the continually changing circumstances affecting them
specially.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: All comparisons of
that kind must be taken with a good many deductions, of course;
they are not put forward as mathematically accurate, of course.
There are lots of things that happen in the interval, for instance, the
war; and great difficulties were caused there.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes. Besides the great prosperity of New South
Wales and New Zealand affects the prices of their bonds quoted here.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: All these must be
regarded as illustrations. They are not put forward as demonstra-
tions, but I thinlc the facts stated in that memorandum show that
we are really treating the Colonial securities with a preference of
a very substantial kind as compared with every other security, in-
cluding some of our own — including a large number of our own —
considering the amount of securities that have been issued by our
own municipalities.
Mr. DEAKIN: We always make a broad distinction between our
municipal securities and State securities.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Particularly if com-
pared with foreign and leaving out municipal securities, we have
given a very substantial preference to the Colonies which I think
ought to be regarded as final for the time being at any rate.
I think that concludes our Agenda, does it not, for the moment?
It comes to this, Mr. Deakin, as far as you are concerned, that yo>i
would like on the question of the silver coinage to have those further
particulars for which you asked and then to have a further discussion
on the subject.
Double Pay-
ment of
Income
Tax.
DOUBLE P.WMENT OF INTOME TAX.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Referring further to the question of
double payment of income tax, Mr. .\sqviith. I would like a little
further information. We have had a great many representations
about it in New Zealand from time to time. Take a shareholder in
n company that is registered in England and earns its money in
COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 201
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
New Zealand, assuming he gets 1,000/. as divided frona that com- 25th April,
pany do you charge the income tax to the company on the whole of its
profits here, including of course the 1,000?., and then to the indi- Double Ptny-
vidual shareholder on his 1,000/. too? 'nent of
Income
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Is he resident in Tax.
New Zealand? (Sir Joseph
Ward.)
Sir JOSEPH WARD : If resident here.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: If resident here, if
the income tax is charged to the company then we are satisfied as
far as we are concerned, and the company proceeds to deduct from
his dividend his proportionate share of the tax which they have paid
to the Government here.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: And the shareholder is not charged again?
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: No.
Dr. JAMESON: He will bring forward a statement, I presume,
that he yaid on that occasion.
CHAIN! CELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Yes. If he is a
person entitled to an abatement; that is to say, if his whole income is
less than 700Z. a year, which is our upward limit for abatement, then
he is entitled to an abatement of something between 70Z. and
160Z. according to the amount of his income, and he would be entitled
pro tanto to have that refunded if the company had taken the fuU
rate froiii him.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I ask the question because we have had
roprosontatinu'; made rather the other way. Taking the case of a
a limited liability company registered in London and with their
shareholders here, earning its money in our country ^^ipori which they
charge him income tax on their earnings there — whom do you charge
—the company?
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: We charge the com-
pany.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The shareholders are not resident in our
country at all in the case I am taking; they ai-e here. Amongst the
representations made is one that in oiir eo\mtry the Company has
first to pay income tax to the New Zealand Government which is
charged to the shareholders as a whole, and then the individual share-
holder pays again in England. That is what we have been told.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: They could not
possibly.
Dr. JAMESON : In the case of those paying income tax on
money earned in the Colony, say that they registered a company in
London, therefor the profits would be received in London and paid
out in London, and so they would pay a second time in London
according to the present conditions because, as put here in the case
of this company Sir Joseph Ward is talking about now, the income
tax is a tax upon income received in the United Kingdom. If the
company is registered here the income will be received in the United
Kingdom and your man will pay. Tours is the same as ours in the
Cape which taxes only the income earned in the country where the
tax is in force, but it will pay both there and in England.
202
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1901
25th April,
1907.
Double Pay-
ment of
Income
Tax.
Dr.
Jameson.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
CHANCELLOK OF THE EXCHEQUEE : That may be, but I
thought the question was whether we collected the tax twice over,
once from the company and once from the shareholder.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : Yes.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : And my answer was
addressed to that question. We never get the tax twice over.
Sir HENRY PRIMROSE : No.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: If you choose to
tax him you get it. There is nothing in international or municipal
law to prevent you paying income tax twice, in two different coun-
tries, if the laws of those countries each allow it.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: On the same earnings?
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Yes, nothing what-
ever if they insist upon it. It is not against the comity of nations.
Does that conclude everything? Thank you very much.
COLOXIAL COXFEREXOE, 1307 203
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
SEVENTH DAY. SeventhDav.
26th April,
Held at the Coloxial Office, Downing Street,
Friday, 26th April, 1907,
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
Xew Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cajm
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works,
(Cape Colony).
The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister
of Newfoundland.
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General the Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P.. Parliamentary Under Secretary
of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Sec-
retary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B.. C.M.G.
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G.
Joint Secretaries.
Mr. W. A. ROBLKSON,
Assistant Secretary.
Also present :
The Right Honourable the Lord Chancellor.
The Right Honourable The E.arl of Crewe. Lord President of the
Council.
Mr. H. Bertram Cox. C.B., Legal Assistant Under Secretary of
State for the Colonies.
'Mr. E. S. Hope. C.B., Registrar of the Piiv>' Council.
Mr. A. W. Fitzroy, C.O.V., Clerk to the Privy Council.
1907.
204
COLONIAL COXFEREyCE, 1901
Seventh Day.
26th April.
1907.
Imperial
Conrt of
Appeal.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
IMPERIAL COURT OF APPEAL.
CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, we proceed to-day to the question of
Judicial Appeals. We have before us two resolutions, one proposed
by the Commonwealth of Australia and another by the Cape Colony.
I think Mr. Deakin is ready to speak to the Australian resolu-
tion.
Mr. DEAI{!IN : My Lord, my Lord Chancellor, and gentlemen, the
resolution of the Commonwealth of Australia is simply: "That it is
desirable to establish an Imperial Court of Appeal, " by which it is
intended to convey a single Court of Appeal for the whole Empire,
instead of as at present retaining dual Courts, the one dealing with
cases from India and the self-governing Colonies, and the other deal-
ing with cases arising within the United Kingdom. It is unnecessary
to go further back than the time of the passage of the Common-
wealth Constitution through the British Parliament, when the ques-
tion of appeal arose in relation to the discussions as to the propos-
als in regard to appeals made in the Commonwealth Constitution, at
the very outset of the discussion between the then British Govern-
ment and the representatives from Australia who were charged with
attendance here during the passage of that Bill. In the very first
document that we rece,ived from the Government of the United King-
dom occurs a memorable passage. It is headed, " Memorandum of
" the Objections of Her Majesty's Government to some provisions of
" the Draft Commonwealth Bill. " I quote the statement made by
the Government on page 152 of the volume of " Debates in the Im-
" perial Parliament with Appendices, " published in 1901 from the
British Hansard : " Proposals are under consideration for securing
" a permanent and effective representation of the great Colonies on
"the Judicial Committee, and for amalgamating the Judicial Com-
"mittee with the House of Lords so as to constitute a Court of Ap-
" peal for the whole British Empire. " Again, on page l.')6. in a tele-
gram from the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Mr. Chamberlain,
to the Governors of the Australian States, there is this sub-
paragraph 7 : " Her Majesty's Government feel that the actual re-
" striction of the power claimed to make further restriction equivalent
"to the practical abolition of appeal would be specially inopportune
" at the moment when they are considering the terms of a Bill for
" enhancing the dignity and promoting the efficiency of the Judicial
" Committee by practically amalgamating it with the House of Lords
" and providing for permanent representation of the great Colonies
" in a new Court which it is proposed to create. " In consequence
of those statements and their discussion then a Colonial Conference
was called in 1901 — what would be now termed a subsidiary Confer-
ence— for the purpose of considering this special question. Perhaps
before referring to that I might call attention, for the sake of those
who are 8uffioiontly interested to pursue the course of this question, to
the debates which followed in the House of Commons wht-n the Com-
monwealth Bill was under discussion. There are a series of state-
ments made by the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Jfr. Chamber-
lain, who repeated the proposal for the .imalgamation ol the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council wii>! the? appellatn jurisdiction of
the House of Lords as one of the grounds on which ho resisted
certain amendments to that Bill. Apart from ^fr. Chanibcilain a
number of other Members spoke, including Mr. llaldane. who pointed
out that this proposal of the Government was one which he and
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
205
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
others had long supported. Mr. Asquith, at page 42, also gave his SeventhDay.
"adhesion as one who looked forward to the constitution of a real 26th April,
" Imperial Court of Supreme Appeal, a Court not to be forced on the
" Colonics against their will, but a Court of such a character and
" having such attributes as would appeal to every part of the Empire."
Mr. Bryce, another distinguished authority, at page 53, echoed the
hope that the Imperial Parliament would proceed with the creation
of this Court. The member for Dumfries Burghs asked the Com-
mittee to consider for a moment the real importance of the Appeal to
the Privy Council which he thought very desirable to retain if we
could, but admitted that it ought never to be imposed on the Colonies
unless they wished it. At the conclusion of his remarks he said
that " the proposal then before the House would do no harm he
" believed to the '' — Australian — " Constitution, and certainly it
" contains no element of injustice or unfairness, but if they do not
" think so and continue to express what exists to a considerable ex-
" tent in Australia, a decided preference to the form of Bill to which
'' they all agreed in the first instance, I would express the hope that
" the Government even now, after having done their best according
" to their own view of their duty, will revert to the Australian view."
We were therefore encouraged to hope a good deal from the Confer-
ence which followed in 1901, at which Canada, Australia, New Zea-
land, South Africa, the Crown Colonies, and India were represented
by nominees. But the result of their discussions — the discussions
themselves, I think, have not been published — was that a majority
consisting of five of the members signed an unqualified recommend-
ation that appeals should continue to lie from the Colonies and from
India to His Majesty in Council. They went on to make certain
suggestions that the appointments to the Judicial Committee should
be made from the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth, New
Zealand, South Africa, and so on; the appointments should be for
life or for a term of years not less than 15 years, and arrangements
should be made for securing a larger attendance of Lords of Appeal
at sittings of the Judicial Committee. The recommendations of the
five ended there. Though the suggestions for the improvement of
the Court was endorsed by two other members, Mr. Justice Emerson
and Sir James Pendergast, I am not aware how far any steps have
been taken to give effect to any of the recommendations at which
that Conference almost unanimously arrived. I am quite in the dark
as to any arrangements since made for securing a larger attendance
of Lords of Appeal at sittings of the Judicial Committee. Cases
have occurred — one case quite recently, of a very grave and serious
character, to which I shall presently call some attention — in which
the presence of a larger committee would have been extremely desir-
able. After the five signatories, Mr. Justice Emerson specially
added that he signed subject to the proposal that had been made for
the establishment of an Imperial Court of Appeal for the Empire.
In the same way Sir James Pendergast on behalf of New Zealand
signed subject to the establishment of a new final Court of Appeal
for the whole British Dominions. Mr. Justice Hodges of Victoria,
the representative of the Commonwealth, added on our behalf not
only a dissenting opinion but a further request repeated at our desire
for the establishment of one Court of Final Appeal. Three members
of the Conference declared for an Imperial Court of Final Appeal.
206
COLONIAL COyPEBEKCE, 1907
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
That, I thiiik, represents, as far as it is necessary to deal with it
at this time, the immediate history of this proposal.
Since those events the Government, and, I think, the great major-
ity of the Parliament and the people of Australia, have not altered
their attitude upon this question. They are no more contented
with the present condition of appeal eases than they were in 1900
or 1901. iSTor are their sentiments likely to alter after the judgment
given lately in an Australian case in which two matters^ of vital im-
portance came before the consideration of the Judicial Committee.
The first question related to the right of hearing an appeal at all
under such circumstances; the second related to the principle of in-
terpretation to be adopted in respect to the constitution of the Com-
monwealth. The two taken together raised the most fundamental
public issues for Australia that could well be summarised in any
single case. It was heard by two Lords of Appeal, one of them the
late Lord Chancellor, and two Colonial judges — a Court of four. Jf
my memory serves me rightly, within two or three weeks of the hear-
ing- of that case a Court of exactly twice the same strength — four
Lords of Appeal and four other judges — assembled to rehear a case
which, so far as its financial subject-matter was concerned, affected
the sum of 6001. in the State of New South Wales. Of course, it is
impossible to suggest, even in the vaguest wayj any scale of propor-
tion by which the relative importance of cases can be judged. Great
principles may possibly arise in conection with the smallest sums
and slightest personal transactions. But in the one particular case,
as I have said, the scope of the Commonwealth Constitution from a
judicial aspect was in a measure at stake. We cannot think, and
cannot for a moment admit, that under such circumstances the
arrangement by which that attendance of judges was obtained was
satisfactory. We are aware of the special manner in which this
Court is constituted. Attention has been called to that for many
years. During the Australian Convention, which resolved upon
proposals restricting the Appeals to the Judicial Committee of the
Privy Council, that was one of the grounds upon which a very de-
cided view was taken. Although alterations have been made from
time to time and decided improvements of late, it is evident that,
even regarded in its present condition, the system adopted is by no
means satisfactory to us, nor, I think, is it satisfactory to many other
than Australian litigants.
The aim that we have was well expressed in course of the debate
on the Connnonwealth Bill, if my memory serves mc, by the Right
Honourable R. B. JIaldane, when he said that he understood the
Colonial view to be that what in the shape of a Court of Appeal was
good enough for the people of Great Britain was quite good enough
for the colonies, and what was not good enough for the people of
Great Britain was not good enough for Colonial litigants. That
was a very pithy way of putting the case as it presents itself to us.
We venture to entertain the opinion that notwithstanding the theory
of its relations to the Crown, but from a purely legal point of view,
the House of Lords is the tribunal to bo preferred. It certainly
stands higher in the estimation, at all events, of Australian lawyers
than the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, speaking of it, of
course, as a Board and not under special circumstances. If the two
are to be compared, having some regard, of course, to the difference
in their procedure, the House of Lords is preferred in Aiistralia.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Tin
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
The fact that in the case of tlie Judicial Committee you get but one
judgment has its advantages in the way of simplilicatiou, and does
not promote doubts which might otherwise arise, but it leaves us
absolutely unaware whether that judgment was arrived at by a
majority of one or by the unanimous consent of the whole of the
distinguished lawyers who form that Court. It has to be
taken or left. The practice of the House of Lords, which
at the sacrifice of some apparent simplicity does afford a
great many lights upon every question submitted, often from a num-
ber of quite individual standpoints, leads our litigants, as
far as I Lnow their opinion, to prefer that method of disposing of
tli.'ir cases. It is not so much on grounds of this character that we
put forward this plea for a single Court of Appeal, but rather on the
ground that what we all desire, and should desire, is the establish-
ment of the very best Court of Final Appeal that can possibly be con-
stituted. We believe that even the wealth of legal knowledge and ex-
perience in this country, supplemented as it might be from the Outer
Empire from time to time, can scarcely be divided into two Courts
without one being less effective, or, what is almost the same, obtain-
ing less confidence than the other. Of course the fact that those
members of the House of Lords who are Law Lords participate in the
Judgments of the Privy Council has added the great weight which
they bring. In the Judgments of the Privy Council, which are under-
stood to have been much appreciated in the Dominion of Canada,
it was generally, I believe, considered that the most prominent part
in shaping them was taken by Lord Watson, a very eminent and dis-
tinguished Judge, whose services were at least equally available in
the House of Lords.
Consequently, with the aim of obtaining if possible the very best
Court which the Empire can furnish, and making it the strongest
Court of Appeal without rival or fellow, we are attracted not merely
by the symmetry of the proposal but by the fact that it would afford
an assurance which we consider we do not at present enjoy, that in
regard to appeals from Australia, for which alone I claim to speak,
we would receive the benefit of the very best and strongest Court
available. Comparing the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council,
as we see it, with the House of Lords, our opinion is that of the two
the latter is the more desirable Court.
The present proposal has become complicated of course by the fact
that the representative Conference which assembled in 1901, although
it consisted of delegates only, did, by a majority, decide in favour of
the retention of the appeal to the Privy Council. I hasten to say
that nothing is further from our intention in making this proposal
than while both Courts remain to require those communities who' pre-
fer to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to be di-
verted to any other tribunal on our account, or for the reasons which
commend themselves to us. I have, therefore, by way of supplement,
to say that our desires would be satisfied if His Majesty's Government
could provide, by Order in Council, or if not by Act, that it should
be possible for any of the King's Dominions which intimated its de-
sire in a formal manner to transfer its appeals, while the present
system of two Courts is maintained, from the Judicial Committee
of the Privy Council to the House of Lords. Under that plan those
who for one reason or another are satisfied to lie within the jurisdic-
tion of the former, would remain as at present, their appeals follow-
ing the existing course; while on the other hand, the Commonwealth
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
208
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
Seventh Day.
2€th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
of Australia, and any other dominion which on the whole, taking
all things into consideration, prefers to have the law interpreted in
the last resort by the House of Lords, would have the benefit of com-
ing under its jurisdiction. That, I take it, would in no sense disturb
either system. It would make some further demands upon the Lords
of Appeal; it would increase the amount of business before them,
though, I think, having regard to the lists with which they already
deal, that it would not be by any means a serious increase, that is to
say, sufficiently serious to render it a matter of moment. It would
be a source of satisfaction to us in Australia. It would not interfere
with the equally free choice of any other part of the Empire.
Although I feel some difficulty in alluding to the Judgment of
the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, to which I have already
referred upon the appeal with relation to income tax sought to be
levied by the States of Australia upon, officers of the Federal Govern-
ment, yet I cannot complete what I have to say in this connection
without calling attention to a situation that may possibly arise in
connection with that case which is not an unexpected situation, since
it was clearly foreseen by the leading statesmen who took part in tlie
debates upon the Commonwealth Bill at the time it was passing
through your Parliament. As you, my Lord, are well aware — and
probably our colleagues have some recollection of it — the proposal
ultimately placed in our constitution limited appeal to the Privy
Council, and conferred upon the High Court of Australia what we
believed to be and intended to be final jurisdiction in matters relating
to the interpretation of our own constitution. But, owing partly to
differences of opinion between ourselves as delegates, the majority
nf the British Parliament, led by the Government of the day, intro-
duced amendments in that constitution which left us in a position of
some uncertainty. I do not wish to detain the Conference more than
to refer very briefly to the fact that Mr. Haldane, at page 67 of this
report of the Debates, was, I think, one of the very first to call atten-
tion to a remarkable situation that might possibly arise in the future.
I think it may very reasonably be expected to arise either in connec-
tion with this case to which I have referred, or to any decision which
follows the principles it lays down. Mr. Haldane pointed out that
" the clause provides that if you have litigation in a State upon a
" constitutional question, you may appeal either to the Privy Council
" or to the High Court. If you appeal to the High Court, the deci-
" sion Ls to be final xniless the High Court gives you leave to appeal
" to the Privy Council. It is, in other words, a court of final juris-
" diction upon this matter. " Then he continues, " As the clause
" makes the High Court of Australia a court of final jurisdiction.
" there may well be conflicting decisions between the High Court
" and the Privy Council. I do not think that is an academic mat-
" ter. " The Attorney-General of the day. Sir Robert Finlay, ad-
mitting the apparent conflict, maintained that under such circum-
stances the High Court would necessarily as of courtesy, and from
a sense of subordination, .accept the ruling of tlie Judicial Com-
mittee; but members on his own side were doubtful, and those on the
other side of the House, and an authority as eminent in such mat-
ters— that is, matters relating to a_ federal constitution — as Mr. Bryce,
the present Ambassador to the United States, repeated the warning
that the constitution as amended left these two tribunals in danger of
conflict. He said — when replying to the Attorney-General — " He
" suggested that under the Amendment the Committee is now dis-
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" cussing the High Court of the Commonwealth of Australia will
" not be a court of co-ordinate jurisdiction with the Privy Council.
" I cannot feel by any means so clear as my right hon. and learned
" friend on that point, because we are here making a special provis-
" ion for a special case. " He said again : " Surely it will not only
" be within the power of, but also the duty and the right of the High
" Court to give full effect to that provision of the Aus-
" tralian constitution, and to say, ' We are in this particular matter
" ' made a final court of appeal. In all other matters we are undoubt-
" ' edly a subordinate court, unless in a particular matter we are made
'"a court of co-ordinate jurisdiction.' They would say: 'The
" ' only appeal is to lie from us, where we are satisfied there is some
" ' special reason; we are bound to carry out the intention of the peo-
" ' pie of Australia and of the Imperial Parliament in not going be-
" ' yond the express provision ; they have given no appeal unless spe-
" ' cial reasons, in our opinion, exist. ' I think, therefore, that it will
" be open to the High Court in future to hold that in this matter they
" are a court, not of subordinate jurisdiction, but of co-ordinate juris-
" diction. I cannot assent to the argument that, because they are
" subject to appeal in other cases, they are subject to appeal in this
" case also. " And lower down he says: "I think it necessary to en-
"ter a protest against the view the Attorney-General has taken on
" this point." I will not venture to delay the Conference by reference
to the varying opinions expressed by different members. There was
conflict of opinion then that pointed to the conflict in the future.
Perhaps I may be pardoned if I refer to the debates in the House of
Lords, in which the late Lord Davey viewed this very question. He
dealt with it in a very clear and emphatic fashion. At page 101 he is
reported to have said : " Clause 74 " — that is the clause in question
— " as it stands is a perfect solecism in jurisprudence, and for this
" reason, that it creates two final " co-ordinate courts of appeal.
" neither of which is bound by the decision of the other. " Omitting
some sentences, he goes on: "The Judicial Committee, of course, is
" not bound by the decision of the High Court, nor, as I understand.
" is the High Court bound to follow the decisions of the Judicial Com-
" mittee in matters of this kind. They may, therefore, each maintain
" their own opinion. I know that the answer that may be made to me
'■' is that the Australian judges are men of such high principle and
" good sense that they will find some way of either agreeing with the
" Judicial Committee or of allowing the matter to be finally decided.
" They may ; but it lies in their discretion, and unless they do so you
" wi,ll have two co-ordinate Supreme Courts of Appeal from the same
" courts on the same class of subjects deciding in entirely different
" ways. That, I venture to think, is a solecism in jurisprudence. "
Pinally, the late Lord Chief Justice of England (Lord Russell) at
page 109 is reported to have said : "The third and last point to which
" I will call attention is this. While there is no appeal according to
" this clause from the High Court except by leave of that court, in
" the cases mentioned, there is an appeal from the decision of the
" State Court to the Queen in Coimcil, and thereupon arises the
" conflict to which reference has been made — which court is to
" prevail ? I do not seek to dogmatise upon this matter, as "to which
" there are obviously, from what my noble and learned friend has
"said, different opinions; but I fail to see anything in this Bill
" asserting directly or indirectly, that where the decision of the Privy
" Council conflicts with the decision of the High Court, the decision
58-14
Seventh Dav.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
210
COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 190~
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
" of the Privy Council is to prevail. I see nothing to that effect ex-
" pressed certainly, and nothing I think to be implied. When I
" remind your Lordships that the clause expressly says that the High
" Court shall be the final judge in the matter unless it chooses to give
" leave, surely that does lay a solid and reasonable foundation for
" the contention that it is thereb5', as regards matters so dealt with
" in the clause, created the final court, and therefore co-ordinate with
" the other final court, namelj', the Privy Council. It seems to me
"that that is a difficulty which will very likely arise." Lower down
he says : " It seems to me that the conflict is inevitable. "
I am, therefore, bound to consider the possibility that when the
recent Judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council
comes before the High Court of Australia, as I understand it will
within the next two or three months, that out of this grave decision
in the Income Tax case that very conflict of opinion may arise.
Such a contingency, even if only referred to by way of illustration,
suggests the advantage to be derived by the acceptance, so far as
Australia is concerned, of the proposal embodied in this Eesolution.
The anomaly to which Lord Davey called attention remains and is
likely to remain a cause of serious inconvenience, perhaps of very
serious loss and cost to the Commonwealth of Australia. That is,
when in this case, or some other case, some discrepancy becomes
flagrant between the judgments of the two courts, which are in certain
respects co-ordinate, and both of which are in terms final Courts of
Appeal. Therefore, while not desiring to press for more consideration
than we are entitled to on this head, I submit, first, my general reso-
lution with the qualification that it is not in any way desired to be
imposed upon any of the other Dominions who may prefer to remain
subject to the existing jurisdiction. Supposing the Imperial Court
of Appeal is rejected, if His Majesty's Government, for one reason
or another, does not think fit to proceed with the distinct proposal
made in 1900, and then apparently very generally approved, and if
our request cannot be complied with because of differences among our-
selves, or for other reasons, perhaps His Majesty's Government
would give their attention to the suggestion of an optional appeal —
not in each individual case, but for all cases from Australia. Then,
if necessary, after legislation by the Commonwealth Parliament, all
appeals from us might go to the House of Lords, instead of, as at
present, to the Judicial Committee. I make that suggestion in
order to clarify our position, and to remove all appearances of pres-
sure on other dominions, but not to detract from our opinion that the
best possible manner of meeting the situation is the acceptance, as
early as may reasonably be possible, on conditions to be laid down by
His Majesty's Government, of the proposal for one court for the Em-
pire.
Finally let me refer to the protest of Mr. J ustice Hodges, the very
able representative of Australia in 1901. His concluding words re-
lating to this proposition are, " Such a court" — that is one Imperial
Court of Appeal for the whole Empire, sitting perhaps in two Divis-
ions, and witli certain arrangements which it is not necessary to
dwell upon, "would bring the best legal thought in the United King-
" dom in touch with the best legal thought in the Empire outside the
" United Kingdom. It would be a wonderfully strong court, and
" commnnd the admiration and respect, not only of the whole British
" race, but of " every race in the British dominions. It would bo a
" powerfiil factor in the development of a closer union between all
COLONIAL COXFEREyCE, 1907
m
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" parts of the Empire. In the British dominions it would obliterate
" in the administration of justice all dictinctions between places and
" persons. Just as there is one flag to protect the subject from ex-
" ternal assault, so there would be one court as the final arbiter of
" internal disputes. " That is our view. We think it is a great ideal,
and one which ought to be served. We have not thought it necessary
to appear to criticise the J^udicial Committee of the Privy Council
in its methods or manner. In " The Life of the late Mr. Henry
Eeeve " there is a great deal of light thrown upon the manner in
which the Board was then constituted — that is the Judicial Committee
— and apparently it is still open to the same vicissitudes. With that
great ideal before us, we respectfully submit the resolution which I
have the honour to move.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I would not like to speak at this
moment. I see that Cape Colony has also proposed an elaborate reso-
lution on this question, and I would like to hear what their represen-
tative has to say.
Dr. JAMESON: The resolution of the Cape Colony is more on
detail matters than the very large subject brought forward by Mr.
Deakin, and I would only say with regard to that general subject,
we have entire sympathy with Mr. Deakin in desiring a final Imper-
ial Court of Appeal. Of course, as to what that Imperial Court of
Appeal should be, and what form it should take, I must say, I think,
from the South African point of view, we would differ from Mr.
Deakin. We would rather it existed as constituted at present — the
Judicial Committee of the Privy Council — than the House of Lords,
and for a very obvious reason. We, in South Africa, are more or
less under Roman Dutch law which, I understand, differs consider-
ably from the English law, and there is provision for this in an ap-
peal to the Privy Council, and we have a very able representative on
that court at present, who is an acknowledged authority on Roman
Dutch law, and naturally, from our point of view, we would rather
the final Court of Appeal should take that form than the House of
Lords where, of course, no such representative could sit.
Mv. DEAKIN : The proposal of Mr. Justice Hodges especially
provided for the case of Roman Dutch law and local law.
Dr. JAMESON : That . would remove my objection. I would
not care which it was, but one final court appeals to us very much.
With regard to the Cape Colony Resolutions, after studying the
papers with which we have been furnished on the subject, I find a
good many of our suggestions have been met; in fact I may say that
practically the onus is thrown upon the Colonies, and not upon the
procedure of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, for any
delay or extra expense that may occur. Still I think, perhaps, it
would not do any harm that these four sub-resolutions should be pass-
ed as an indication that we are desirous of minimising delay and
curtailing expenses as far as possible. But since these Resolutions
from Cape Colony were sent in, my colleagues from South Africa,
— General Botha and Mr. Moor — and myself, have met together and
have formulated some further proposals which we should like to
bring before the Conference, which General Botha will propose pres-
ently. They mainly relate to our own local affairs. At the same
time they also relate, if I am rightly informed, to the condition of
the Appellate Covirts in other States to. We. in South Africa, are
5S— 14J
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
212
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
very anxious to get established a final Court of Appeal in South
Africa for all the various States. Of course, supposing Federation
comes about, that would come naturally. We believe Federation is
coming immediately, but still we feel that it would be advisable that
we should prepare at once, and get established if we can, as part of
that Federation and even before that Federation, a final Court of
Appeal in South Africa. Our present position is we have a Supreme
Court in each of the Colonies. We have other District Courts.
There is an appeal from a District Court to the Supreme Court.
Similar cases occur in the various Colonies, and we are faced with
absolutely dissimilar decisions in the various Colonies, whicb natural-
ly leads to a good deal of discontent. So we are anxious that we
shoiJd have a final Court of Appeal for the whole of South Africa,
but that will entail considerable expense, both to get it going and
maintain it afterwards, and we feel that we could not, unless the
various States are in agreement on this subject, be justified in under-
taking that expenditure unless we were permitted, which I understand
is the word to use, by His Majesty's Government to pass legislation
in our own various Colonies, taking away the right of appeal from
the Supreme Court in each of the Colonies to the Judicial Committee
of the Privy Council. I think that possibly might suit some other
States also, and we should all be anxious to do it. So that our
Supreme Court of Appeal would be a final Court of Appeal except
that it might be put into the Statute by which it is created that on
certain subjects — possibly on relations between the various States
and so on — there might be permitted an Appeal to the Privy Council
by permission of that Supreme Court. Those cases would be very
few. So really it would be a final Court of Appeal so far as we are
concerned, except in special cases which would be laid down. At
the same time, I would add that the prerogative of the King — the
right of every citizen in the British Empire to appeal to the King —
must be carefully safeguarded, but that would practically not bo
used, because I understand, supposing the right of appeal was refus-
ed in a particular case by the Appeal Court to the Privy Council,
and an individual still wished to go to the Privy Council, as his
right is, of course, the practical point is that if he won his case or
lost it, he would still have to pay all the costs, which woidd be a
considerable deterrent to anyone taking that extreme action.
I think I will leave General Botha to bring forward these further
resolutions.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : Who do you suggest would constitute the
superior court — the final Court of Appeal in South Africa?
Dr. JAMESON: Judges selected in South Africa by all the
States in South Africn.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Judges who had previously tried portions
of the cases?
Dr. JAMESON: No, we would like, ultimately, when the busi-
ness was large enough, to have separate judges for it, but as a tenta-
tive measure they might be selected from the various States, and if
there was not enough work for the judges to do in the Appeal Court
they might be the superior judges in the various States. That is n
detail to be managed out there, but the idea would be that the judges
of the final Appeal Court would have their time occupied as judges
of that Court.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
213
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Ur.
JameBon.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: With the jurisdiction you propose I do not think Seventh Day.
there would be much doubt about that. ^^^\m.
Sir JOSEPH WAKD : No, I think not.
General BOTHA: My Lords and gentlemen, I have little to
add to what Dr. Jameson has said. We have a Memorandum. If
the Chairman thinks it necessary, I should like to hand in this
Memorandum so that the other Premiers may peruse it. There is a
resolution attached to this Memorandum which we should like to
support. Dr. Jameson has rightly remarked that there is a great
desire in South Africa to establish a Court of Appeal, and, although
we have there four Colonies, we think that we can commence Feder-
ation by establishing this Appeal Court for South Africa; specially
also because this will in a great measure reduce the amount of costs,
and it will be specially advantageous to the poorer classes who can-
not afford to carry appeals to the Privy Council, to go to a Court
of Appeal in South Africa. I will, therefore, ask leave to hand in
this Memorandum, and I should like to add to that Memorandum
the resolution which we, the Premiers of South Africa, have arranged
to support.
CHAIRMAN : I think it would be better if you would read both.
The Memorandum and Resolution were read as follows: —
MEMORANDUM.
Question of Judicial Appeals.
There is no objection to the Resolution of Cape Colony on the
question of Judicial Appeals, but it does not go far enough.
There is a general feeling throughout South Africa in favour of
the establishment of a South African Court of Appeal to which
appeals would lie from the decisions of the Supreme Court of each
of the South African Colonies, even before a Federation of these
Colonies becomes an accomplished fact.
It has been urged, however, that the expense of establishing and
maintaining such a court would not be justified as long as there is
a right of appeal from the Supreme Court of each Colony to His
ilajesty in His Privy Council.
If a Court of Appeal is established it is considered most desirable
that this right of appeal to the Privy Council should be taken away,
so as to prevent a litigant dissatisfied with the decision of the
Supreme Court of a Colony passing by the Court of Appeal and
prosecuting his appeal from such decision, before the Judicial Com-
mitee of the Privy Council.
It is also desirable that when such Court of Appeal is established,
its decisions should be final, excepting in certain matters in which
that Court may grant leave to appeal to the Judicial Commitee of
the Privy Council. These matters would, of course, be prescribed
in the statute establishing such a court. The right of any litigant to
apply to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for leave to
appeal to it from a decision of the South African Court of Appeal
should not in any way he curtailed. The following resolution is
suggested : —
(1) That when a Court of Appeal has been established for any
group of Colonies <reographically connected, whether fed-
erated or not, to which appeals lie from the decisions of
214
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(General
Botha.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
the Supreme Courts of such Colonies, it shall be compe-
tent for the Legislature of each such Colony to abolish
any existing right of appeal from its Supreme Court to
the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
(2) That the decisions of such Court of Appeal shaU be final
but leave to appeal from such decisions may be granted
by the said Court in certain cases prescribed by the
Statute under ivhich it is established.
(3) That the right of any person to apply to the Judicial Com-
mittee of the Privy Council for leave to appeal to it
from the decisions of such Appeal Court shall not bo
curtailed.
CHAIRMAN : Do you wish to add anything, Mr. Moor ?
Mr. F. R. MOOR: No, my Lord, I have nothing to say. We have
considered it together.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: My Lord and Gentlemen, I have
listened with great care and attention to the view presented by Mr.
Deakin in support of the resolution which the Commonwealth of
Australia have laid before the Conference. But if I understood him
aright his argument was rather an indictment of the Constitution
which was finally passed by British Parliament for the Commonwealth
of Australia in this : that that provided for two appeals from the
decision of its own courts. As he has presented the matter to us, the
duality of appeal must necessarily lead to some confusion, and so far
as it goes it seems to me his argument cannot be successfully met,
and nobody now would be interested in opposing it. The British
Parliament no doubt can remedy the evil since they are the para-
mount power, hut perhaps they would have some hesitation in in-
terfering and making what would practically be an amendment of
ehe constitiition of a federal country.
Mr. DEAKIN: That we have not asked for.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: No, and I believe the British Parlia-
ment would hesitate also to do it until they had heard from the
diflferent ■ states which composed the Federation.
Mr. DEAKIN: Even in that case we should not ask for any in-
tervention.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : As I construe it the resolution which
you have presented, " that it is desirable to establish an Imperial
Court of Appeal," would be practically an amendment of the Con-
stitution of Australia.
Mr. DEAIQN: No.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes, since there are two appeals
granted, if you destroy one I take it to be an amendment of the Con-
stitution.
With regard to the question of a Court of Appeal in South Africa,
so far as it concerns the Conference I do not know that serious objec-
tion can be taken to that. If the three Colonies or dependencies in
Soutli Africa are agreeable to have a Court of Appeal for tlionisplves.
nobody else can take exception to it. It seems to me to lead in the
direction of immediate federation. If they have a Court of Appeal
for themselves, this leads to the ultimate and proximate creation of
n federation for all imrposcs. This would certainly be in the best in-
terest of themselves and the Empire.
COLONIAL CONFEREXCB, 1907 215
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 5a
So far as Canada has any concern we have an appeal to the Seventh Day.
Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and it has, as a general 26th April,
rule, given very great satisfaction. I do not know that all its de
cisions have been accepted. There are few courts which have not Imperial
their decisions criticised within twenty-four hours, but as a rule the Court of
decisions of the Privy Council so far as concerns Canada have been ,^. ^i^ J -,
, . ^ . 1 • II (sir Wiliiia
eminently satisiactory. At the same time everybody must recog- Laurier.)
nise that the constitution of the Court is not, perhaps, quite in
accordance with the modern age and tendencies. The point made
out by Mr. Deakin, that the constitution of the Court may be one
day four and the next day eight is certainly a point well taken, and
is liable to create dissatisfaction, and, perhaps more than dissatis-
faction, serious complications. It seems to me that the Judicial
Committee of the Pri%-j' Council should be remodelled if it is to be
maintained. I may say that in my country the views of the people
are not all in accord as to the retention of that appeal. Some jurists
have maintained that any country ought to be able to interpret its
own laws, that is to say, the Parliament which creates the laws should
be the Parliament to create the tribunal to interpret those laws. There
is a great deal of force undoubtedly in that view. On the other
hand there are some jurists of equal eminence who believe that
taking us as we are at the present time a part of the British Empire,
in which so many questions of Imperial interests must necessarily
arise even in the lowest courts, it would be a good feature to retain
till! i)resent appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
The present Minister of Justice, as able a man as we have ever had
in Canada, is of this opinion to-day. though some of his predecessors,
anc. I believe, his predecessor in 1901, held a different view. But
ther> is a serious question, a serious conflict of opinion when you
come til the question of the jurisdiction of this Court. Under the
Canadian Constitution the administration of justice does not belong
to the central government, but to the Provincial governments. So
that we havt only one court in our country of a federal character,
that is the Supreme Court, which is a Court of Appeal for the Pro-
vinces. But the provinces themselves have retained their jurisdic-
tion and kept the liberty of going to the Privy Council, so that prac-
tically whilst the Dominion of Canada is represented at this Con-
ference, the provinces of the dominion, in so far as they have re-
tained for themselves the administration of justice, are not here re-
presented, and it would be a delicate matter to pass finally without
consulting thoni a question of so much importance. The question
of jurisdiction will always be, so far as this Court is concerned, the
one great difficulty. I am sure that the Imperial Government have
no desire to impose their views as to what should be the jurisdiction.
This should be left to the provinces themselves to determine. The
Judicial Committee of the Privy Council have always decided — and
it is a matter of common every day occurrence — that the King has
retained his prerogative of allowing anyone who chooses to take an
appeal before the Judicial Committee of the Pri^'j' Council. That
appeal, which is an appeal of favour, has perhaps passed the day of
its utility, and if I have any opinion to proffer upon this question
it would be that all matters of jurisdiction should be relegated
altogether to the parties interested — the provinces or the Parlia-
ments— to determine whether and why there should be an appeal or
not.
Sae COLONIAL conference, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Seventh Day. On the whole, we have two resolutions presented to us, one by Mr.
26th April, Deakin for the Commonwealth of Australia, and one by Cape Colony.
1 I prefer for my part the resolution of Cape Colony. A further draft
Imperial has been submitted to us which is based upon the resolution of the
Coart of Cape Colony, and I would be disposed to accept it with the suggestion
-. _^.. ' . , that one or two words should be eliminated. In the first paragraph
Laurier.) ^l^® resolution runs as follows: "This Conference, recognising the
" importance to all parts of the Empire of the maintenance of the
" Appellate jurisdiction of His Majesty the King in Council desires
" to place upon record its opinion." I would eliminate the word
maintenance. I do not object to the words " appellate jurisdiction,"
because I rather favour it, but in view of the conflict of opinion which
exists in my country I would prefer those words out; they would not
alter the sense very materially, but it would not be such an absolute
pronouncement upon the matter.
Mr. DEAKIN: Might I simply explain to Sir Wilfrid Laurier
that I have no intention, either directly or by implication, of sug-
gesting any legislation to the Imperial Parliament which could affect
the present existing Commonwealth constitution. Nothing was fur-
ther from my thoughts. From a desire for brevity I omitted to ex-
plain, as perhaps I ought to have done, that this co-ordinate juris-
diction of our High Court is only on a particular class of cases which
mny come before it. \<e have powers under the Commonwealth con-
stitution to restrict appeals to the Privy Council from the Supreme
Courts of the States, which we have not exercised, and next, subject
to the consent of His Majesty, to still further restrict appeals to him.
Neither of those powers has yet been exercised, and the consequence
is, I think I should be safe in saying, that nineteen-twentieths of our
cases are still open to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy
Council. Consequently, quite apart from the other issue I have
raised, we have a great interest, having such a large area of appeals
to the Privy Council, in asking that the Imperial Court of Appeal,
which we assume would be a body of still higher standing and repute,
should deal with these appeals, quite apart from the particular class
of constitutional questions referred to. It is to our interest to have
a single Imperial court instead of the Privy Council. If we cannot
obtain it, and must make a choice between the two existing courts,
we prefer the House of Lords. In any case we advocate an Imperial
Court of Appeal, because we still believe that appeals from Australia
are not likely to be much reduced for some time to come. If we
wanted any amendment of the constitution we should provide for
that ourselves according to the constitution and in no other way.
Sir WILFEID LAURIER: I thought your argument was that
you had two Courts of Appeal in Australia at the present time.
Mr. DEAKIN: On one class of case.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The object you had in view was to
suppress one of them and provide only for one, if I understood your
firgument aright.
Mr. DEAKIN: In constitutional cases an appeal is still allowed
b.v consent of our High Court, which may refer them on to the Privy
Council. If we had an Imperial Court of Appeal instead of the Privy
Council it is quite certain that those references would be more en-
couraged than they are at present. Then, again, public opinion could
be better satisfied than it is now in Australia. For both those reasons
COLOMAL COXFEREyCE, 1907
217
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
and others we thiuk the establishment of an Imperial Court of Ap-
peal is very desirable.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: [Nfy Lords and Gentlemen, Xew Zealand
is in a .<;lightly different position upon the point referred to by !Mr.
Deakin. We have no federal High Court. Our position is a verj'
clear and defined one. Our Supreme Court, which sits as a Court of
Appeal twice a year at the seat of Government, so far as we are con-
cerned is quite satisfactory. But New Zealand is in favour of an
ultimate Court of Appeal in the United Kingdom, wLfther it be the
Privy Council as at present constituted or an Imperial Court of
Appeal, as suggested by the Commonwealth resolution. That is why
I asked Dr. Jameson what he proposed to set up to take the place of
it, and I understood him to say an ultimate Court of Appeal.
Dr. JAMESOX: An ultimate Court of Appeal for South Africa
only.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I agree in that. You still believe in ap-
pealing?
Dr. JAMESOX: Absolutely.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : There is only one point I want to refer in
connection with this, and I do so on information furnished to me
from legal authorities in my own country, as I am speaking entirely
as a layman. I take the opportunity of mentioning it in the hope
that possibly the Home Government might in future be able to see
their way to meet an opinion which has been expressed by legal
gentlemen in my own country. I am informed one great defect in
the Privy Council, as at present constituted, is that though in the
case, say of Xew Zealand, they are deciding according to New Zealand
law, yet they have before them only such portion of that law as is
presented by counsel. Xow in recent times particularly we have been
sending counsel over from New Zealand specially to call attention
to the New Zealand side of the law. I am informed that when the
argument is over, their Lordships may apply some rule of English
law which has been revoked in New Zealand or omit to apply some
rule of New Zealand law which does not exist in England, and
which they at the moment have not specially brought under their
knowledge. I am told that has actually occurred, and the results,
when it has occurred, has been to the people who are the litigants in
our country very unsatisfactory. What has been suggested from a
New Zealand standpoint to prevent that in the case of every appeal
from a colony, a judge of the Supreme Court of that Colony should
sit with their Lordships, but without taking part in the arguments
or decision, his function being to supply full information as to the
Colonial law and the points of difference between it and the English
law. I may say that in most cases the number of judges in the
colonies is such that one can be always on leave, and if he spent his
leave in England, or in touch with England, he would be available.
My country is strongly favourable to the admission of Supreme
Court judges to the Privy Council. But distant as we are and where
we are with vast interests involved at times, we want to be quite
sure that the state of Xew Zealand law is fully before their Lord-
ships who are dealing with the cases. That is the most practical
suggestion from our point of view, whether it is feasible or not is for
those responsible here to see — but I put it forward with all respect
and urge it from the standpoint of the practical working of the
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
218
COLOXIAL COyPEREyCE, 1907
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
administration of a country which, from time to time, must have
numbers of cases referred to the Privy Council for judgment. If
that could be done, so far as New Zealand is concerned I think I am
right in saying that the whole system of administration would give
very general satisfaction in our country.
1 may also suggest, that as there have been suggestions made
by the various Colonies, perhaps the simpler course would be for the
Home Authorities to prepare a Draft Order in Council consolidating
the existing state of things with such alterations and simplifications
as they deem reasonable, and forwir.l tlni draft to th;; respective
Governments to confer thereon, inter »•■- ;u>fl mixko a cuumon report
as to alterations desired or recommended, in this way there would
result an Order in Council containing the general rules common to
all appeals, and special rules dealing with appeals from specified
Colonies in cases where special rules are necessary.
I may say the main suggestions for the purpose of avoiding de-
lay and reducing expense put forward by the Cape Colony commend
themselves to me, and I should be only too glad to give them my sup-
port. I do not know the circumstances Sir Wilfrid Laurier refers
to in Canada. The disabilities under Mr. Deakin's resolution, as ap-
plicable to Canada, do not apply to New Zealand. As long as it is
understood wejiave the Court of Appeal in the United Kingdom — the
Privy Council as at present constituted, or the one suggested by Mr.
Deakin — I am perfectly satisfied on behalf of New Zealand.
Sir ROBERT BOND : Lord Elgin and Gentlemen, in the Colony
that I have the honour to represent we have the right of appeal to
the Privy Council, and so far as I am aware that is entirely satis-
factory. In 1904, I think, a despatch was sent out from your Depart-
ment asking for an expression of opinion in reference to an amend-
ment of the rules which govern Privy Council practice. At that
time I submitted the contents of the despatch to the Judges of the
Supreme Court, from whom I received an intimation to the effect
that generally the delay and expense in prosecuting these appeals
are the principal causes of complaint, and those which, in their
opinion, mostly require remedy. In the first place, with regard to
delay, they pointed out that while it was perfectly correct that the
Privj- Council has no control over the proceedings tintil the record
is lodged, they submitted that the three months now limited between
the time of the filing of the Petition for leave to appi'sl, and the per-
fecting of the bond obtaining leave is too long, and they suggested
two mouths from the date of the Colonial .Judgment should be the
time fixed. As regards the expense, their Lordships were of opinion
tliat the costs of appeal are much too high, especially the fees paid in
the Privy Council OflBce.
Tliese were the only two matters that they thought oalled for their
comment, and I only feel justified in putting forward their views on
the matter.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : My Lords and Gentlemen, I will
endeavour to speak to the different points that have been raised in
this very interesting and instructive discussion. I think the first
thing that must occur to all of us is the diversity of interests that
have to be considered and the divessity of conditions that obtain in
the different parts of His Majesty's dominions. My view is, and I
think we shall all agree in it, that in those circumstances all that can
be done is to recognise and act unreservedly, upon the principle of
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 219
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
autonomy, that each integral unit of His Majesty's dominions should SeventhDay.
govern itself in the matter of appeah ; that one should not necessar- loA^'"^'
ily be the same as any other, but each should govern itself. I can say
this, that as far as His Majesty's Government is concerned, we most Imperial
cordially fall in with that and will do all we fairly can for the pur- Appeaf.
pose of furthering the views of all concerned. (The Lord
May I say a word with reference to what Mr. Deakin said as to Chancellor.)
the anomalous position — what Lord Davey called a solecism in law —
created by the fact that in a limited class of cases in Australia there
may be two courts, each of them by the constitution final in a par-
ticular case that they determine, which need not necessarily come to
the conclusion. Of course that is a solecism in law. I am not sure
exactly how it arose, but I have some recollection in the House of
Commons of the debate and it seems I took part in it, as Mr. Deakin
was good enough to quote me, and I seem to have said that it would
have been, perhaps, better to leave the constitution of Australia as
the Australians had sent it over the water, a sentiment in which I
probably kept true to my past views and my present views. But thaft
was not the view adopted. However, this I say, that when Mr. Cham-
berlain suggested — and, of course, it was accepted by Australia or it
never would have been in the Act — that the Australians should
accept this view, I am sure he did it in the very best interest, as he
believed, of the friendly and close connection between the two coun-
tries. I am sure his object was a good one. If anything has gone
wrong in regard to that, which I should be very sorry to think, the
Australian Parliament has the power under their constitution to
alter it themselves if they think tit. I can only say in regard to it,
that upon the ground of sentiment I like to sit as an Australian
Judge on the Privy Council, and I hope I may not be deprived of the
privilege.
In regard to the other points referred to by Mr. Deakin as to the
Privy Council, it is quite true that in Mr. Reeve's book, and also in
the Greville ^Memoirs, if I remember rightly, there are references to
the ways in which the Courts were made up, which were not satis-
factory. The English courts were not altogether satisfactory at that
time either. I think we have all made progress generally. We attend
to these things a little more closely and better than we did.
Let me say what is the constitution of the Privy Council and the
House of Lords respectively. They consist of the same persons, who sit
in different places.with this difference that all the persons who can sit in
the House of Lords judicially are entitled to sit in the Privy Council
and do sit there ; but in the Privy Council, having regard to the
fact of past opinions expressed by Colonial Ministers, and to a gen-
eral feeling that we want, so to speak, to enlarge the scope as much
as we can, there are other additional members who are not members
of the House of Lords. There are two members of the .Privy Council
who may be specially appointed, and receive a salary. There are two
also who may be appointed without receiving any salary, and with-
out any specific qualification. There are two such persons, distin-
guished men both of them. In addition to that there is the Act
under which five gentlemen may be appointed, and five have been
appointed, including Sir Henri Taschereau. Sir Henry De Villiers.
Chief Justice Way, and two other distinguished men. I will say a
word about that Statute in a moment. Besides that, all those who
have held high judicial office, the conditions of which are prescribed,
in any part of His Majestj-^s dominions, if members of the Privy
220 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
SfiTenthDay. Council, may sit on the Judicial Committee. Therefore it is what
^^'■^jg^P'" ' may be called in its composition a somewhat cosmopolitan court.
L My friend the Lord President of the Council delegates to me this part
Imperial of his duty, namely the summoning of the Privy Councillors for the
Appeal. purpose of hearing these appeals; and I can only say — and you will
(The Lord credit it — that not only myself but all my predecessors (and I am
Chancellor.) certain it will be the same of my successors, whoever they are) have
been most anxious to provide as strong a court, and as good a coiirt
as can be made for the hearing of Colonial appeals, not only appeals
from the self-governing states of the British Dominions, but of the
Crown Colonies. I hope we are anxious, and always shall be to have
as good a court to hear a Fiji appeal, as to hear an appeal
from the Dominion of Canada. We are in this difficulty, that we
have to man two courts, and I am afraid it is not easy to alter that.
We can do it without overwork, and it would be very undesirable that
we should have overwork. I think we have fuU work, and overwork
would be very undesirable considering the character of the tribunals
of the House of Lords and the Privy Council, and the gravity of the
cases which often come to them. What we do is we divide quite im-
partially, and I can assure Mr. Deakin that in the House of Lords
the English appeals are not favoured at the expense of the Australian
appeals — not knowingly or consciously favoured. We try to make the
best Courts we can. Let me refer to the case which Mr. Deakin re-
ferred to. I was not sitting on that case myscK, but there were four
judges — Lord Halsbury, whom we all recognise in this country to be
one of the greatest jiidges we have ever had, a very great judge. Lord
Macnaghten, Sir Arthur Wilson, and Sir Alfred Wills. It would be
unbecoming in me to pass panegyrics upon my colleagues and friends,
but I should feel myself very uncomfortable if I differed from them
on a point of law.
Then there was the case of the eight judges. That was, I think,
the only time we have sat with eight for many years, but we did sit
as eight because we first sat as four, and I was one of them. The case
raised a point which was considered one of very great difficulty, and
there was a difference or a sense of extreme difficulty in the case al-
though the sum was not large.
Mr. DEAKIN : It was a Xew South Wales case affecting, I think,
the State land laws.
The LOED CHAXCELLOE : Yes, and we got it re-heard by eight
judges, because it was found to be so difficult a case. We said, " No,
" we will not settle it ourselves but get four more judges. " We got
Lord Halsbury and the whole of the four Law Lords and myself. It
was a re-hearing with eight, and then we came to our conclusion
which was I hope a right conclusion.
I will say a word about the arrangement for Colonial judges
sitting, in a moment, and simply say this to Mr. Deakin that I like,
and I am sure we all like, free and open criticism, and that we arc all
the bettor for it, I have not the least doubt. Eeally, if he will believe
it, taking appeals to the House of Lords instead of the Privy Council
would be a great disarrangement of our system, and would really mean
coming before the same people in another place, and you would not
have the advantage, which I should like to have (without an Act of
Parliament altering the whole thing) of the presence of an Australian
judge; you would not have the advantage of some of the very dis-
tinguished men like Sir Arthur Wilson, who are ornaments to any
COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907 221
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
court. You would limit the number of judges from whom the selec- Seventh Day.
tion could be made to hear your cases. But I hope this will satisfy 26th April,
Mr. Deakin. I can assure him not merely that we have taken every •
pains that we can, but that we will do our level best to give his cases, Imperial
as all the other cases, strong and adequate courts just as good as we Court of
shall be able to give our own people. Remember this as regards num- /m, ^''^^ ' ,
ber; I know in some countries — in France where they have a great Chancellor.)
genius for jurisprudence, and they may be right — in some of the
Courts of Appeal they have a great number of judges. In England
the custom has been all through our history to limit the number.
We think that five is quite large enough — understand in saying " we "
I speak for everybody — and is by many of us regarded as quite as
many as you ought to have in a court. Seven have sat sometimes,
but, as a rule, we think that is too great a number, but if it is a very
special case we would have seven or eight, just as in the case I re-
ferred to just now. The genius of our jurisprudence is to pick your
best men; to see you have first rate men, and not to have too many.
Perhaps that is wrong; but that has always been the custom, and
you will find that the greatest decisions in the history of England,
which have made history, so to speak, have been decisions given by
quite a limited number of judges — but they have been of the very
best. We will try to do our best in that respect.
Let me now come to what Mr. Deakin said with regard to the
limitations of appeal. In 1900, Mr. Chamberlain went the length of
stating in Parliament that he had contemplated the creation of one
court, the House of Lords being fused with the Privy Council into
one great court. I think it was found there was very great-difficulty
in carrying out that project. Tf you think of it intrinsically there is
a great difficulty in it. Let me take it by stages. When we speak of
an Imperial Court of Appeal we do not always make it quite clear
what we have in our minds. In the first place, there is a suggestion,
such as is made by Sir Joseph Ward, namely, that one or more of
the judges from New Zealand, or from any other part of the British
Dominions, should come and sit in the Court of Appeal on the hear-
ing of a New Zealand case or in a case from their own country. I
unreservedly agree to Sir Joseph Ward's proposal. I have had experi-
ence myself. I remember an Australian case relating to sheep, about
great tracts of land and the mortgaging of it, and so forth, and when
I was arguing this case before the Privj' Council T was stopped by
Chief Justice Way who happened to be present, who put in a piece
of local knowledge which I am afraid exploded my contention about
sheep farming and sheep management — knowledge which we did not
possess. That is only an illustration. It is also true that there may
be points of law, even though the law in New Zealand be the same as
our own law, in which we should be much the better for having assist-
ance, and very glad to have assistance. I do not think any matters of
importance in regard to law are left out by Counsel, and we find it
out for ourselves too. I unreservedly agree, and heartily think it
would be a good thing if each of the different parts of the British
Dominions, each for the hearing of their own cases, could send to us
one of their distinguished judges, and I need not add it would be a
great pleasure and honour to receive him amongst us.
Then you come to the next stage, whether there ought not to be
a court on which not merely representatives of the particular part of
the world from which the appeal came were sitting, but whether you
ought to have the Privy Council of itself, consisting normally and
222
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Seventh Day.
26th April,
1907.
Imperial
Court of
Appeal.
(The Lord
Chancellor.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ordinarily for all purposes of the representatives of all, or a good
many, of the different parts of the British Empire. You must re-
member that that concerns not only the self-governing Colonies, but
the Crown colonies from which a good many appeals come, and
India from which a great many of the appeals come. Of course it
is a difficulty, though it is not an insurmountable difficulty, but it
would make a very large court. No one would say that every place
should be represented at all times, but it would mean a very con-
siderable number of judges sitting. Still, if Australia, for example,
or any other part of the British Empire, desire that their cases should
be heard, not merely by the judges of the United Kingdom with the
assistance of their own, but also by judges from other parts of the
British Dominions, the Cape, Canada, India, and the Crown Colonies,
and those countries are willing to send us the judges, we can have
no objection. It seems to me to be a part of the autonomy of Aus-
tralia or Canada, for example, that if they wish it done, they are the
persons to decide whether it should be done. It is part of what, in
the familiar language of this Constitution, is called the order and
good government of the Colony.
Then comes the still further stage, the third stage, and that is the
fusion of the House of Lords into the Privy Council. It is a mere
question of jurisdiction, because the persons are the same substan-
tially, with the addition of large numbers in the Privy Council.
That is a proposal the effect of which would be to alter the tribunal
to which English, Scotch and Irish appeals have always gone — •
English appeals from time immemorial, and Scotch appeals since the
Union in 1707, and Irish appeals since 1800. In the same way as the
question of constituting a different tribunal for Australia could not
be done without deliberation in Australia, so this could not be done
here without being fully considered in the United Kingdom which it
affects.
This last stage directly affects the United Kingdom — whether
they will alter the tribunal to which they have been accustomed. I
must say it has hardly been discussed in the United Kingdom. We
have been very busy about many other things as you may suppose.
It has never been really discussed. It was brought forward by Mr.
Chamberlain in April, 1900, and I think a few speeches and observa-
tions were made about it, but it has never been brought up since. I
do not think it has been ventilated in the Press bc.vond the idea, or
what I would rather call, if I may, the aspiration that there should
be community of judicial authority over the whole British Empire.
The aspiration I think is felt, but it has never been thought out,
discussed, or threshed out. Therefore, I cannot help thinking myself
that it would be a pity to make an affirmation in such general terms
as are contained in the Australian proposal because I think it is
premature as far as the practical consideration c\ it in the United
Kingdom is concerned. But I also felt thus: It is apparent that
there is a sense in Australia that they are not altogether at ease in
regard to Privy Council Appeals. I am sure the Privy Council is
in regard to Australian cases nn Australian Court, and what we
ought to do is to try and satisfy the people in Australia not only
that justice is done, but that every effort is made to do it, and as
cheapl.v as possible.
Before I turn to the other matter which T am afraid I must
trouble you with, may I say a word in regard to what was said about
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 223
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
delays 2s o complaint has been made, I think, but what really has Seventh Dav.
happened is this: Since I have become Lord Chancellor— and I only 26th A^pril,
take that as the time because I know about it — beginning in 1906 ''
10 months ago, we put down appeals as soon as they are ready, and Imperial
whenever there is a sufficient number of them we sit and try them, Court of
perhaps five successive lists in the course of a year. We had a list cphe Lord
which we heard in February and March, 1906. All that were ready Chancellor.)
were put down, and we heard and disposed of them all before we
separated. We put down a second list in March and April. We
finished every one of the cases. All those had become due since the
beginning of March. In May we had another list, and we finished
all the cases; and we also had a supplementary list of those cases
which had become ready while we were sitting in the month of May.
They were set down for hearing after the list of the May sittings
had been closed, and one of them I think was heard. In June and
July we proceeded with all the cases that were then ready, and heard
them all except one Indian Appeal which stood over by order for a
particular reason, and another Indian Appeal which stood over at the
request of both sides. There were two Maritime Appeals which stood
over by order with the consent of the parties, owing to special cir-
cumstances. We also heard one additional appeal which had been
entered after we began sitting. In October to December we resumed
our list, and finished all the cases except one appeal from British
Guiana which stood over at the request of the parties. In addition
to that, we heard three supplementary appeals which had been entered
after we began sitting. In January and February of this year we
sat and heard all the appeals, and we also in March heard four
additional appeals which had been entered while we were sitting.
The Privy Council is now sitting, and I expect that in the course
of ten days or so we shall finish off every case that was ready when
we began to sit. which was eight, or nine, or ten days ago. I do not
think yoii will find any record of the way in which business is done
which will beat us in regard to that. As regards the point of delay,
I must say T think there is a good deal to be said for leaving it, as
has been suggested in some of these different communications to the
Colonial Courts themselves to regulate all the procedures, and the
time, and so forth until the case is brought and presented to the
Privy Counoil. After that we shall be able to deal with it and dis-
pose of it with the rapidity to which T have referred.
May I turn to the next resolutions, to which Dr. Jameson alluded,
and which I think he said are to a considerable extent satisfied by
what has been said. Perhaps I may go through them : " This Con-
' ference, recognising the importance to all parts of the Empire of
" the maintenance of the Appellate Jurisdiction of His Majesty the
"King in Council, desires to place upon record its opinion: — ' (1)
" 'That in the interests of His Majesty's subjects beyond the seas
'' ' it is expedient that the practice and procedure of the Eight
"'Honourable the Lords of the Judicial Committee of the Privy
" ' Council be definitely laid dovm in the form of a code of rules and
'' ' regulations.' " The first point is that the practice and procedure
should be definitely laid down in the form of a code of rules and
regulations. That I think is a very good idea, and we think it is
quite right, and we will consolidate and amend so as to conform as
nearly as can be to modem circumstances and requirements, and
with a view to facilitating and expediting the hearing of appeals.
224 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
SeventhDay. I am sure Dr. Jameson will remember that our difficulty is of a
26th April, practical kind. When we consolidate and amend, if we are to send
'_ to every part of His Majesty's Dominions, that is an enormous thing
Imperial to do. Answers come back perhaps not all agreeing, and then ensues
*A°'^*al'^ correspondence. It is a herculean task, and takes a gi'eat time. But
(The Lord "'° ^il^ ^^^ ^° ^° i*'' treating it really as consolidation, and taking
Chancellor.) upon ourselves the responsibility. Keally, after all. practice and pro-
cedure, while important, does not raise vital matters of principle, and
if you will leave it to us we will send round to the different Colonies.
Dr. JAMESON: You might put in the words " as far as possible."
The LORD CHANCELLOR : It is a matter of business detail,
we wiU try to meet you with regard to it, and I think we shall satisfy
you.
The second Resolution is : " That in the codification of the rules,
" regard should be had to the necessity for the removal of anachron-
" isms and anomalies, the possibility of the curtailment of expense,
" and the desirability of the establishment of courses of procedure
" which would minimise delays." The second is of course involved
in the first. This third is : " That with a view to the extension of
" uniform rights of appeal to all Colonial subjects of His Majesty,
" the various Orders in Council, Instructions to Governors, Charters
" of Justice, Ordinances and Proclamations upon the subject of the
" Appellate Jurisdiction of the Sovereign should be taken into con-
" sideration for the purpose of determining the desirability of equal-
" ising the conditions which gave right of appeal to His Majesty."
In every Order in Council there are some provisions which are com-
mon to every set of circumstances; but the principal variations are
dependent upon the diversity of the different countries that have to
be dealt with. For instance, the principal variations relate to the
sum of money which is to warrant an appeal. Now that varies be-
tween 300Z. and 2,000?. It is a matter upon which each country may
have different views ; but whatever n country thinks there will be no
difficulty whatever in giving effect to it. I doubt myself whether, in
a matter of that kind, it is desirable even to press for uniformity.
Perhaps uniformity in things of tlint kind might not he advisable.
Dr. JAMESON: The idea was that all the Premiers being to-
gether they might effect some general agreement.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : It is a luxury to us to have uni-
formity. We should be the last people to object ; but, if the Prime
Ministers, being here, should come to any arrangement about that so
much the better. The same in regard to the limit of time for ap-
pealing as of right, and the lodgment of security for costs. If Dr.
Jameson were to say : " So far cs may be agreed upon by different
" parts of His Majesty's dominions " we should not make any diffi-
culty.
Dr. JAMESON : I quite understood that. The Premiers being
here, the subject might be raised, and our idea was that the Imperial
Government might undertake to correspond with the various States
with a view to get uniformity.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : I must not take upon myself Lord
Elgin's functions, and no doubt ho will help in anything of that
kind. .1 am only speaking from the actual point of view of the
Privy Council.
As regards the last Resolution it says : " That much uncertainty,
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901 225
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
"expense and delay would be avoided if some portion of His Ma- SeyenthDay.
" jesty's prerogative to grant special leave to appeal in cases where jg^^"^
" there exists no right of appeal were, under definite rules and re-
" strictions, delegated to the discretion of the local courts." I think ^'"P'"''*J
that is quite right. It is so in India. It is regulated by codes of civil Appeaf.
procedure, and it can be regulated by your own Parliament. You (Xhe Lord
•may pass in the Cape, if you like, an Act of Parliament; or it may Chancellor.)
be done and has been done by Orders in Council. If you should pre-
fer it should be done by Orders in Council it would be perfectly easy
to do it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : " That much uncertainty, expense,
" and delay would be avoided if some portion of His Majesty's pre-
" rogative to grant special leave to appeal in cases where there exists
" no right of appeal were, under definite rules and restrictions, dele-
" gated to the discretion of the local courts." I would rather see that
done by the central authority than by the judicial authority.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : I think what it means is that
leave to appeal in a particular case — not the general rule laying down
when there should be leave to appeal — should he put in the power of
the local courts to give, instead of litigants being obliged to come
and apply to the Privy Council for leave.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That could be done without legisla-
tive authority. I know in my Province, when I was a young member,
an interesting discussion took place on this point.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : You would have to do it by Act
of Parliament. It is in the case of the Crown Colonies that we do it
by Order in Council.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes, and a great many members
favour the absolute abolition of the prerogative of the Crown to hear
any complaints from any subject all over the world. It was conceded
that Canada under our Act could take away that prerogative, but the
opinion prevailed at that time that the right should not be interfered
with. Whilst in some cases we have restricted the number of appeals,
no man can take away the right of appeal to the Privy Council. If
a case involves over 2,000 dollars, he can come as of right to the
Privy Council ; but. as a matter of fact, he can come to the Crown
and ask for leave to appeal. I would prefer to leave this.
Dr. JAMESON : This is made to a great extent unnecessary by
the further Resolution which we have brought in in concert to-day,
where we say what we want is to have power to legislate, and then,
when we form a special court of appeal, that there shall be only cer-
tain things which shall be capable of being the subject of appeal to
the Privy Council, and power to grant that leave shall be left in the
hands of the final court.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I would rather say it should be in
the hands of Parliament.
Dr. JAMESON : It would be Parliament really, because Parlia-
ment would legislate as to that point.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It would satisfy me if you were to
say : " That much uncertainty, expense and delay would be avoided
" if some portion of His Majesty's prerogative to grant special leave
" to appeal in cases where there exists no right of appeal were, under
" definite rules and restrictions " leaving the rest out.
68—15
226 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
SeventhDay. Dr. JAMESON : I am quite willing to do that. Our fourth
" 1907^"^' ' Resolution practically puts it in the hands of the local courts,
j^-— ^j The LOED CHANCELLOR: I misapprehended the point Sir
Court of Wilfrid was taking. It is obvious the Privy Council cannot make
Appeal. laws to govern the self-governing Colonies in any way. I was speak-
(Sir Wilfrid i^g of j^^ ^g J have been speaking of it throughout, not merely in re-
lation to the self-governing Colonies, but to the whole British Em-
pire, becaiise the Privy Council has jurisdiction everywhere.
Mr. DEAKIN: Except in the United Kingdom.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : Yes, it has jurisdiction there too, in
respect of patents. What I meant was you could do it in the Legis-
latures yourselves as you please, and it is for the Legislatures to pass
your own laws, and for the local courts to carry out the laws the
Legislatures pass. It is possible to do it by ordinance in the Colony,
or Order in Council here in the case of Crown Colonies.
May I turn now to the other supplementary points Dr. Jameson
has given us. I think his general object is the establishment of a
final Court of Appeal in South Africa, with certain restrictions upon
the right of appeal from South Africa to the Privy Council, which is
obviously a matter for the South African Colonies to determine for
themselves. If they pass their own Act they can set up their own
Court in South Africa, unless they like to invoke the machinery of
the Imperial Parliament by asking the Imperial Parliament to do it.
I do not know whether they would or not.
Dr. JAMESON : I understand the Imperial Parliament might use
its machinery supposing we pass such legislation at the present mo-
ment as would deprive our own State even of the right of appeal to
the Privy Council.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: .a.s I 'understand, you want to have a
Court of Appeal for the three Colonies — the Transvaal, the Cape,
and Natal. In a case which would affect you in Natal you want to
have a Court of Appeal for these three parts?
Mr. DEAKIN: And the Orange River Colony.
Dr. JAMESON: We want it for all, but, to justify us in doing
that we might take away their right of appeal from the present Su-
preme Court direct to the Privy Council.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Tou must have legislation of the Im-
perial Parliament for that.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes, that is what I am asking. We want their
approval, at all events.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: It really comes to this: Tou would
set up your own court for all the self-governing Colonics in South
Africa — and probably the Orange River Colony will have a constitu-
tion in the course of a few weeks — a South African court in South
Africa. That would be your work. If you wanted the auxiliary help
of the Imperial Parliament for other purposes, it may be constitu-
tional and the most convenient way of doing it. I, for my part,
greatly hope that, however the functions of the Privy Council may be
restricted, the connection will not be severed between the Privy
Council and the courts cither in South Africa or elsewhere. But
every self-governing portion of His Majest.v's Dominions has its own
right to regulate its own affairs, and do as it thinks fit in regard to
that.
COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 227
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Dr. JAMESON: The point I wanted to know about is this ques- Seventh Day.
tion of our depriving ourselves of the right of appeal to the Privy ^^^^ q^^ '
Council. Do I understand we could only do that by Imperial legis- L
lation or an Imperial Order in Council? Imperial
The LORD CHANCELLOR: You could not do it by Imperial A'p^*al!^
Order in Council because it would be interfering with your own j^^^^ ^^'^\
affairs. By the Imperial Parliament it could be done if the Colony *"*^^ °^''
asked that it should be done — and it would be done. It is rather a
novel point. My present impression — and I am sure you will not tie
me to it if I am wrong — is that the Parliament of a seK-governing
Colony with the Royal Assent could regulate that as well as anything
else.
Mr. DEAKIN: Is not there power by Order in Council to restrict
the conditions of appeal?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: When the constitution is set up the
King has no power whatever to interfere with, or derogate from it.
Mr. DEAKIN: Surely he rules in his own court?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, the King might be advised to
say by Order in Council that he would not undertake such and such
an appeal. After all, we are now getting upon constitutional methods
of carrying it out. The machinery is not so important, after all, as
the object. May I suggest to Dr. Jameson that if he reads these
three resolutions closely, he will find they are not quite consistent,
because if in No. 3 you keep the right of any person to apply to the
Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for leave to appeal to it
from the decision of such Appeal Court, and you say that is not to be
curtailed, it is inconsistent with abolishing the appeal in particular
cases.
Dr. JAMESON: No, this is abolishing the appeal from the pre-
sent Supreme Courts of the various States of South Africa direct
to the Privy Council, because this would be constantly going on, and
our new Court of Appeal might have nothing to do. We want to
abolish that, and, as far as South Africa is concerned, we want this
new Appeal Court to be the final Appeal Court, except in stated cases
to be mentioned in the Statute creating the court. Then we say we
know the prerogative of every British subject is the right of final
appeal to the King, and we want that safeguarded, so that, outside
of that, any subject could come to the Privy Council, but he has then
to ask for leave to appear before the Privy Council. What we want
out there is that any case must go to the Appeal Court in South
Africa before it can go to the Privj' Council.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I think I see your point. Then
there are General Botha's resolutions, the substance of them having
been explained by Dr. Jameson. I think Sir Wilfrid Laurier merely
suggested an amendment to one of the Cape resolutions: "This
" Conference recognising the importance to all parts of the Empire
of the maintenance of the Appellate jurisdiction."
Dr. JAMESON: I am willing to take the words out. If they had
never been in I should not mind, but taking out something looks like
weakening the idea.
CHAIRMAN: Then we take out those words.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : That ends all I have to say, exxept
that there was a reference to the fee of the Privy Council Office. The
5S— 15i
828 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Seventh Day. fees ordinarily chargeable to a successful appellant and respondent
1907^"^^ ' ^^® about 151. and ISl. respectively, and to an unsuccessful appellant
and respondent 4Z. and Si. respectively. It has not been suggested
Imperial before that the fees are too high. We have not received any sug-
Appeal. gestion of that kind. We will look into it. The suggestion came
(The Lord from Newfoundland.
Sir EOBEET BOND : I was putting forward the views that were
expressed by the Justices of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that is all I need say,
except this : that the Privy Council is very conscious of its respon-
sibilities, I can assure you, and is proud of being able to sit as His
Majesty's Court for the different parts of His Majesty's Dominions.
Mr. DEAKIN : Do I understand you to take exception to the
resolution of which the Commonwealth has given notice, that it is
desirable to establish an Imperial Court of Appeal?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I think it is asking us in the
United Kingdom to adopt a resolution which has not been in the least
considered in this country, and I think myself it is premature. I
do not want to speak hostilely to it.
Dr. JAMESON : You used the word " aspiration." Would not
we pass it in that form, that it is a fair aspiration?
The LORD CHANCELLOR : I think our people would be rather
surprised and startled, remembering that this is a new subject to us
altogether, if we were to commit ourselves to the idea of an Imperial
Court of Appeal, which means one court for the whole of the British
Dominions, and a reconstruction of the House of Lords and the
Privy Council.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The adoption of your resolution, Dr.
Jameson, commits those who are here present, and the Officers of the
Crown, to an inquiry into the present constitution of the Privy
Council. It is a very ancient tribunal. This resolution has some
very good words in it — that there are anachronisms and anomalies.
There are many things which I think can be eliminated. If the
Privy Council is reconstructed that is practically the court. It does
not matter by what name it goes. At present, this resolution being
adopted we must have a report, as I understand, from the Officers of
the Crown with a view to carrying out the suggestion. Then we can
see if we should go further. At present I am quite satisfied in
adopting this resolution.
Dr. JAMESON: And after this investigation, the result of it
taking place on the part of His Majesty's Government will be such
a suitable court that it will be suitable for the United Kingdom also.
Therefore, ,1 cannot see why we should not pass the Commonwealth
resolution as our aspiration of the one which will be created out of
tlie Privy Council.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not know whether I should enlist Sir Wilfrid
Laurier's support to an amendment of this first resolution by which
it would read " That the Conference recommends to the consideration
" of His Majesty's Government the establishment of an Imperial
Court of Appeal."
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Do you mean we should pass the
resolution? It seems to me not particularly compatible.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 229
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: The first resolution would then be reduced to an SeventhDay.
aspiration. 26th April,
1907.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I have no objection to an Imperial :
Court of Appeal. I do not care what name you call it; whether it is Comt'^f
the House of Lords, or the Judicial Committee, or any other body. Appeal,
it matters not very much. For my part I prefer Dr. Jameson's '^''" W^'Wrid
resolution. Launer.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR: Do you include General Botha's
addition ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I have no obiection to that. It is not
a matter which concerns this Conference, but concerns the three
Colonies there represented.
Dr. JAMESON : If you and other members in the Conference
agree, it will help us a good deal in getting this machinery, which
the Lord Chancellor has foreshadowed as necessary, carried out.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: With all my heart. You are far
away, and you want to have a Court of Appeal for South Africa
which should be final in most eases, and from which alone there can
be an appeal to the Privy Council.
Dr. JAMESON: That is exactly it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I quite agree with that.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I favour that very cordially too.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I think everyone agrees in regard
to the resolution of Cape Colonj', and General Botha's additional
resolution. If the resolution as to the Imperial Court of Appeal
were accepted, of course it would be committal of the United Kingdom
to a variation which, as I have said, they certainly have not con-
sidered, and which I think we ought not to agree to.
Mr. DEAKIN : Have you any objection to our asking you to con-
sider it if we alter it in that way, '' that the Conference recommends
" to the consideration of His Majesty's Government the establishment
" of an Imperial Court of Appeal."
CHAIRMAN : His Majesty's Government are represented in the
Colonies.
The LORD CHANCELLOR : Is not that one of the things which
relate to the order ond good government of the United Kingdom ?
Mr. DEAKIN : I am bound to admit that is one of the reasofis
why we put this resolution forward in terms that are intentionally
vague ; if it were otherwise it would have seemed as if we were im-
posing something upon the United Kingdom, though it affects us
both. I am satisfied to have put forward the proposal. I do not
desire to place His Majesty's Government in a difiiculty. I recognise
the force of the statement of the Lord Chancellor that as yet the
matter has not been matured in this countrj'.
CHAIRMAN : Would it not meet your case if we treat it in this
way : that we record this resolution as having been submitted by
you and discussed ; then proceed to say that the resolution proposed
by the Cape Colony has also been discussed, and that the Conference
thought effect should be given to its recommendations ; then make
the same sort of deliverance with regard to General Botha's addi-
tional resolution. That would put your resolution on record, but not
bind us who :^el a difficulty in the matter to any further action.
230 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Seventh Day. ilr. DEAKIN : In this Conference it is undesirable to attempt to
-^*'l-j*P''^^' bind any of its members to that to which they take exception. Might
L I point out that while I do not question the statement directly, or by
Imperial implication, of the Lord Chancellor, as to the impartial treatment of
Appeaf *^^ courts, yet, in the very constitution of the Privy Council, if my
(Chairman.) memory serves me, the enactment says that the Lords of Appeal in
Ordinary shall, " subject to the discharge of their duties in the House
of Lords," attend the sittings of the Judicial Committee. That dis-
tinctly places upon the Lords of Appeal a mandate for their consider-
ation of their duties in the House of Lords before their duties in the
Privy Council Again you pointed out the very great care with which
• the court of which you were a member dealt with the New South
Wales case, to which reference has been made, when you said that
although four members of the Judicial Committee assembled to hear
it, you had a rehearing with eight members because it was an im-
portant matter. Extremely satisfactory as this was in that case, it
only emphasises the distinction between it and a case which, from
the public point of view, was of immensely greater importance, affect-
ing so many vital constitutional issues. Yet that case was finally de-
cided by a court only half as large, after an argument which, I fear,
was imperfect, in a Judgment dealing with matters which, so far as
the records show, do not appear to have been argued at all. Un-
happily, the members of the Board on that occasion did not seem to
perceive that the issues were specially important or that they de-
manded a stronger Committee. I only mention that by way of illus-
tration of the risk suitors run by not being able to secure the same
very wise and considerate treatment which the court gave in the
New South Wales case.
Finally, while it is perfectly true that we have to take upon o\ir
own shoulders the responsibility of having accepted in our constitu-
tion those terms out of which this judicial anomaly has arisen, it
stands on record that we did so only to save the whole constitution.
It was one of those choices which all practical politicians have to
make. We made it with our eyes open, but none the less reluctantly,
regretfully, and now remember it repentantly.
CHAIRMAN : My suggestion is this : that the finding of the
Conference might run in this form : — That the following resolution
of the Commonwealth of Australia, " That it is desirable to establish
an Imperial Court of Appeal," was submitted and fully discussed.
The resolution submitted by the Government of Cape Colony as
amended was accepted as follows : —
" This Conference, recognising the importance to all parts of the
Empire of the appellate jurisdiction of His Majesty the King in
Council, desires to place upon record its opinion : —
" (1) That in the interests of His Majesty's subjects beyond the
seas it is expedient that the practice and procedure of the
Right Honourable the Lords of the Judicial Committee of
the Privy Council be definitely laid down in the form of a
code of rules and regulations.
" (2) That in the codification of the rules, regard should be had
to the necessity for the removal of anachronisms and ano-
malies, the possibility of the curtailment of expense, and the
desirability of the establishment of courses of procedure
which would minimise delays.
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1901 231
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" (3) That, with a view to the extension of uniform rights of ^T?''*?^^^'
appeal to colonial subjects of His Majesty, the various Orders 1907. '
in Council, Instructions to Governors, Charters of Justice,
Ordinances and Proclamations upon the subject of the Ap- i™ P®.""'*]
pellate Jurisdiction of the Sovereign should be taken into Appeal,
consideration for the purpose of determining the desirability (Chairman.)
of equalising the conditions which gave right of appeal to
His Majesty.
" (4) That much uncertainty, expense, and delay would be avoided
if some portion of His Majesty's prerogative to grant special
leave to appeal, in cases where there exists no right of appeal,
were exercised under definite rules and restrictions."
The following resolutions presented to the Conference by General
Botha, and supported by the representatives of Cape Colony and
Natal, were accepted : —
" (1) That when a Court of Appeal has been established for any
group of Colonies geographically connected, whether feder-
ated or not, to whicli appeals lie from the decisions of the
Supreme Courts of such Colonies, it shall be competent
for the Legislature of each such Colony to abolish any ex-
isting right of appeal from its Supreme Court to the Judi-
cial Committee of the Privy Council.
" (2) That the decisions of such Court of Appeal shall be final,
but leave to appeal from such decisions may be granted by
the said court in certain cases prescribed by the Statute
under which it is established.
" (3) That the right of any person to apply to the Judicial Com-
mittee of the Privy Council for leave to appeal to it from
the decision of such Appeal Court shall not be curtailed."
The Conference adjourned till Tuesday, April 30th, at 11 a.m.
232 COLOXIAL COyPEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Eighth Day. EIGHTH DAT.
30th April,
1907.
Held at the Coloxul Office, Dowxixg Street,
Tuesday, 30th April 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EARL OE ELGIN, KG., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Lvurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, KC.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodedr, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin", Prime Minister of the Com-
monwealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., I'rime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
Newfoundland.
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under Secretary
of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Sec-
retary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G., \ r ■ i c
Mr. G. W. Johnston, C.M.G., ) *^''*'*' Secretaries.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also present:
The Right Honourable H. H. Asquith, Chancellor of the Exche-
quer.
The Right Honourable D. Lloyd George, M.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
Mr. W. Ri'NCiMAN, M.P., Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
Mr. H. E. Keari-ey, M.P., Parliamentary Secretary to the Board
of Trade.
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907 233
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir E. W. Hamilton, G.C.B., KC.P.O., Permanent Financial ^j,|^*\ °Y'
Secretary to the Treasury. 190?!"^' '
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, C.B., Permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fox, C.B., Comptroller-General of the Commercial,
Lahour, and Statistical Department of the Board of Trade.
Mr. G. J. Stanley of the Board of Trade.
CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, we proceed to-day to a very import-
ant series of Resolutions concerning points on which we know there
is difference of opinion, but which, I have no doubt, we shall discuss,
as we have hitherto, with an attempt to understand each other. I
suppose we shall proceed as we have hitherto done, that is, ask those
Colonies who have submitted Resolutions to explain to us in the first
place the reasons which they wish to adduce. There is only one
observation which I should like to make on the matter. My two col-
leagues beside me have come to deal with two sides of this question.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer will deal with the fiscal side, and
the President of the Board of Trade with the side relating to treaties
and other matters. I assume from a study of the Resolutions that
in some of them both sides are dealt with, and I venture to suggest,
as a matter of convenience, that we should treat them separately,
and that we should, in the first place, take up the discussion of the
fiscal side, on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reply. I
do not know whether there has been any arrangement between those
who have submitted Resolutions as to the order in which they will
speak to them, but I naturally turn, as I have hitherto done, to
Australia in the first instance, and ask if they are prepared to open
the discussion.
Mr. DEAKIN : If that is the preferable course to pursue, in your
opinion, I certainly will do so; hut perhaps Sir Wilfrid Laurier
would prefer to make a statement of some kind.
PREFERENTUL TRADE. Preferential
Trade.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, so far as
Canada is concerned, the statement which I have to make will be very
brief. Our views upon this matter have been known for some time,
and at the last Conference they were the subject of ample discussion
which resulted in the Resolution which was adopted on that occasion,
and which is to be found on page 36 of the Blue Book. The Resolu-
tion was in these terms, first : " That this Conference recognises that
" the principle of preferential trade between the United Kingdom and
" His Majesty's Dominions beyond the Seas would stimulate and
" facilitate mutual commercial intercourse and would, by promoting
" in the present circumstances of the Colonies, it is not practicable
" the development of the resources and industries of the several parts,
'■ strengthen the Empire. (2) That this Conference recognises that,
" to adopt a general system of free trade as between the Mother
" Country and the British Dominions beyond the Seas. (3) That
" with a view, however, to promoting the increase of trade within the
" Empire, it is desirable that those Colonies which have not already
" adopted such a policy should, as far as their circumstances permit,
"give substantial preferential treatment to the products and manu-
" factures of the United Kingdom. (4) That the Prime Ministers of
234 COLONIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. " the Colonies respectively urge on His Majesty's Government the
^"^^laiw^ " e^ediency of granting in the United Kingdom preferential treat-
L " ment to the products and manufactures of the Colonies either by
Preferential " exemption from or reduction of duties now or hereafter imposed.
/<3- w-K -A " ^^^ That the Prime Ministers present at the Conference undertake
Laurier.y " ^° submit to their respective Governments at the earliest oppor-
" tunity, the principle of the Resolution and to request them to take
" such measures as may be necessary to give effect to it. " The Cana-
dian Government adhere to this Resolution, and have none other to
propose than that, and I intend at the proper time to move it again.
As I understand the Resolutions of Australia, they agree in sub-
stance with this Resolution. The first three parts, I think, are
verbatim the same. As to the others, there is not much "difference
between the fourth and fifth parts of the Resolution adopted in 1902
and the Resolution proposed by Mr. Deakin. But perhaps Mr. Deakin
himself wiU show what difference there is, and what he has in mind
in substituting the new draft for what the previous Conference con-
cluded.
Mr. DEAlvIX : My Lord, ilr. Askwith, and gentlemen, our varia-
tion lies first of all in the omission from the fourth Resolution of the
words '■ either by exemption from or reduction of duties," words which
do not appear to be material to the substance of that proposal, and its
application to the self-governing dominions between themselves. The
fifth paragraph does not mark a departure. The fifth says it is
desirable that the United Kingdom grant preferential treatment to
the products and manufactures of the Colonies. That is comple-
mentary to the proposal included previously in the third Resolution,
which was that the Colonies were to give substantial preferential
treatment to the products and manufactures of the United Kingdom.
- By adding the fifth Resolution it is intended to propose that we
should recommend the adoption of reciprocal preference as in the
fourth Resolution of 1902—^ preference from the United Kingdom,
or, at all events, in association with that.
In moving these Resolutions may I. in a very brief fashion, in
the first place allude to the rather significant circumstance that from
the earliest occasion of the summoning of representatives of the self-
governing Dominions to a Conference of all parts of the Empire,
this very question at once presented itself as a natural and proper,
if not necessary, subject for consideration as between the several
Parliaments concerned. It has never been omitted since from any
of these Imperial assemblies. When the first Conference assembled
in 1887, with that prescience for which the late Lord Salisbury was
distinguished, he put in the forefront of his brief address to the
assembled representatives the situation as it then appeared, in these
words, which appear on page 5 of the Reports of the Proeeedinps of
1RS7*: "I fear that we must for the present put in the distant and
" shadowy portion of our task, and not in the practical part of it, any
" hope of establishing a Customs Union among the various parts of
" the Empire. I do not think that in the nature of things it is im-
" possible; I do not think that the mere fact that we are separated
"by the sen renders it impossible. In fact, the ease of Ireland, which
"has a Customs Union with England, shows that it is not impossible.
" But the resolutions which were come to in respect to our fiscal policy
"40 years ago set any such possibility entirely aside, and it cannot
• [C. 6091].
COLOXIAL COyFERENCE, 1907 235
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" be now resumed until ou one side or the other very different notions Eighth Day.
" with regard to fiscal policy prevail from those v?hich prevail at the ^*'*^i„^'"'"'
" present moment." The Colonics at that time were as they are now, L
more or less definitely Protectionist in principle. The United King- Preferential
dom was then, as it is now, practically Free Trade in every detail. Trade.
The prospect, therefore, of any form of " Customs Union " — words Deakin )
used, of course, by the Prime Minister, in a very general sense — had
to be postponed, as he indicated, until there should be some change
of opinion. But looking through the reports of this first Conference,
one finds even at that date most of the salient features of the discus-
sion as it has since been developed, were already present to the minds
of those who assembled here. The question of foreign bounties and
how they should be met,- — whether by retaliation or otherwise — was
dealt with. Sir Samuel Griffith, then Premier of Queensland, sub-
mitted an express proposition for the granting of preferential trade,
which will be found on page 462 of the same book. He said : " The
" question that I should like to submit for consideration to-day is
" whether that conclusion ought not to be carried further, whether it
" should not be recognised as part of the duty of the governing
" bodies of the Empire to see that their own subjects have a prefer-
" ence over foreign subjects in matters of trade." Lower down on
the same page he said : " I am not going to venture into deep waters
"of Free Trade and Protection; but I maintain that buying in the
" cheapest market is not the greatest consideration in the world —
" that after all that or any other system of fiscal policy can only be
" adopted as a means to an end, the end being the prosperity of the
" country to which we belong." Omitting a sentence : " If that can
" be best done by buying in the cheapest market, and insisting that
" that shall be done, by all means be it so. But if buying in some
" other than the cheapest market would conduce more to the prosperity
" of the Empire, then, as in all other matters, individual liberty must
" yield to the general good of the whole community. All government,
" I suppose, consists in a surrender of individual liberty in some par-
" ticulars for the benefit of the whole community. I am not sanguine
" enough to suppose that anything is likely to be done just now ; nor
" do I suggest any interference in the least degree with the tariffs
" of any countries, or that it should be insisted that any country
" should impose a customs charge for any goods if it does not choose
" to do so. But I submit for consideration this proposition : That if
" any member of the Empire thinks fit for any reason to impose
" Customs charges upon goods imported from abroad, it should be
" recognised that goods coming from British possessions should be
" subject to a lighter duty than those coming from foreign posses-
"sions; or to put it in, .T think, a preferable way, that the duty on
" goods imported from abroad being fixed according to the con-
" venienee of the country, according to the wishes of its legislature,
" as to which there should be perfect freedom, with which I would
" not in the least interfere, a higher duty should be imposed upon the
" same kind of goods coming from foreign countries." I have read
rather more than T intended, but a portion of the speech shows that
even at that date the idea embodied in proposals for preferential trade
was quite clearly recognised by this most capable Australian states-
man.
Then it is notable, too, that in the course of the debate a Vic-
torian statesman, perhaps known by name to most present, the Hon.
236 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. James Service, who was during the whole of his career an ardent Free
1907"^ Trader, and to whom this proposition appeared then to be suggested
ahnost for the first time, after remarking that he was a Free Trader,
Preferential gg^j^ g^. page 471 : " If this question were to be raised now as a Free
.-If ' " Trade and Protection question, I would not take any part in the
Deakia.) " discussion, because I am not prepared to open up that whole ques-
" tion. I am not, however, one of those Free Traders who believe in
" Free Trade as a fetish to be worn as a mere phrase round our necks,
" and who regard it as always indicative of precisely the same con-
" dition of things that it was indicative of in the Cobden period, or
" hold that circumstances might never arise of an Imperial character
" which might demand a revision of our policy upon that subject."
Generally, I think, I may say that was the attitude of the majority
of the speakers on that occasion. At all events I find myself reported
as having said of preferential trade, " this is one of the best and one
" of the few means of drawing closer the bonds of imity, and increas-
" ing, as Sir Samuel Griffith phrased it very properly, the solidarity
" of the Empire." I went on to add : " But it is not for the Colonies
" to urge the adoption of this proposal as one which would be a bene-
" fit to them. It is really an Imperial matter, and until the head and
" heart of the Empire here " — meaning London, Britain — " become
" animated by the same feeling, and become convinced that this is
" a good means to adopt, our voices must be futile, the expression of
" our views may be considered premature." I simply placed it on
record that, so far as we were concerned, we favoured " an Imperial
" tariff which would not only demonstrate the unity of the Empire,
" but assist to make it a potent reality." So even in 1887 we were
face to face with the question which still confronts us to-day.
The next Conference, which met in 1894, in Canada, at Ottawa,*
and which was referred to by one of the Canadian Ministers present
as a " Trade Conference," took this question into very special con-
sideration. Two resolutions were carried, either then or in 1897, the
first recommending the denunciation at the earliest convenient time
of any treaties which now hamper the commercial relations between
Great Britain and her Colonies. That resolution was carried unani-
mously. The next was that in the hope of improving the trade rela-
tions between the Mother Country and the Colonies, the Premiers pre-
sent should undertake to confer with their colleagues with a view to
seeing whether such a result could be properly secured by a preference
given by the Colonies for the protection of the United Kingdom.
Perhaps, as I have not the papers at hand, I may be pardoned for
alluding here to a fellow proposal of a distinctive character which
was made on the first occasion in 1887 by an exceedingly able repre-
sentative from the Cape, Mr. Hofmeyr. He proposed, not mutual
tariff concessions as between the Mother Country and the self-gov-
erning Dominions, but — I think, for the first time, so far as I am
aware — an additon of some small percentage (I think he suggested 2
per cent) to every tariff of the Empire, either in the Mother Country
or elsewhere, so as not to affect in tlie slightest degree the complete
freedom of each portion of the Empire in framing its own tariff.
Protectionists or Free Trade. He sought to make that levy upon
foreign goods on entering the Empire, the sum derived to be devoted
to Tmpcrinl purposes, partly to defence. Naval Defence in particular
and partly to assisting trade and commercial development. I do not
See (C. 7553).
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1001 237
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
wish to detain this Conference, and therefore hurriedly abbreviate Eighth Day.
from memory Mr. Hofmeyr'a proposal, which he supported in a most 1907^'^' '
striking and able speech. He attended, though in ill-health, the Can-
adian Conference of 1894, when again he alluded to the proposals Pr^erential
which he had previously submitted, but I do not appear to have a ...
reference to the page. We are very much indebted to Lord Elgin for Di'akin.)
the mass of material which he has placed at our disposal. I only
wish it had been within my power to read, mark, learn, and inwardly
digest it before we resume these discussions. But the pressure upon
us is such that even in making a note of this reference to Mr. Hof-
meyr, I have evidently mis-stated the page. Now I have the papers.
In 1894 the resolution was passed for reciprocity between the different
Colonies and the Mother Country, and al.so between each other; and
another resolution in which they asked for a denunciation of treaties.
There were treaties at that time proposed between Ne^\ Zealand and
Canada, and New Zealand and South Australia, to which, howevei,
no effect was gi'^en; but the making of such treaties was deliberateH
encouraged. Then it was that Mr. ITofmoyr, referring to his former
proposal, expressed his deliberate judgment to this effect— without
waiting to find the reference in order to quote the exact words — that
it was highly necessary for the stability of the Empire and almost for
its existence that n customs alliance of some kind should be estab-
lished ; that if it were not established the Self-governing Dominions
might be erpeoted to turn to other Powers and possibly to enter into
treaties with them which he thought would have an injurious effect.
That seems much naarer to-day. He considered by anticipation the
question of the effect upon food products of his proposal, and, as I
remember, thought that any increased cost of a reasonable duty upon
food products oiher than those from within the Empire which were
brought into the United Kingdom, would be slight and of short dura-
tion. Hp, entertained a strong hope and expectation that his proposal
would be adopted. T do not wish to dwell further upon this side issue,
except to s.iy that if "Nfr. Hofmeyr's speeches in 1S87 and in 1894 at
Ottawa be taken together, they form a very notable contribution to
the discussion of this question from another point of view, though an
allied point of view, to that which is touched upon in the Resolution
that the Common'^ealth has submitted. They seem so important that
T venture to interject them here, because of the intimacy of their re-
lation, although they are not directly materia] to the proposals we
have before us. .Tt was in 1897 at which the Resolutions, which I
read as of 1894, were passed, showing that at the third Conference
Preference was still a live question. Then in 1902 we have the resolu-
tions which Sir Wilfrid Laurier has read to us this morning, and
which, I am glad to hear, he proposes to reaffirm.* At every Con-
ference, therefore, this issue has been raised in some form or another,
with increasing force on each occasion and with increasing definite-
ness. It would not, therefore, be quite consistent with the course that
has been followed by previous Conferences if this issue were not dealt
with, and I hope even more thoroughly, at this Conference. For
that, too, we have a special warrant. I find in a document, ^ifhich
appears to be in a sense official, issued by the Imperial Federation
(Defence) Committee, reporting very fully a deputation to the Prime
Minister of 1904, that Mr. Balfour, speaking as Prime Minister, in
reply to their request that the question of Naval Defence and Im-
• (Cd. 1299) p. 36.
238 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VU., A. 1908
Eighth Day. perial Defence generally should be pressed upon the coming Con-
^'^^oj^P'""' ference which was due in 1906 — which is this Conference, postponed
L for a year — went on to say : " As everybody is aware, the circum-
Preferential " stance which forced upon me at least the absolute necessity of call-
Tij " ^°^ such a Conference was the position in which we have been
Deakin.) " gradually brought by a controversy \\hich has nothing immediately
"or directly to do with, though it is indirectly no doubt connected
" with, the subject which_has brought you all here to-day "• — that is
the subject of Defence. " I am not going to say a word upon that con-
" troversy" — that was the TariS Reform controversy. '" There are
" gentlemen in this room, probably, holding veiy many different views
" upon the subject, and it would be quite out of place and quite im-
" proper for me to drag in the merits of that controversy even in the
" most indirect manner. But I quite admit that though the question
" of closer commercial union with the Colonies, or though a discus-
" sion of the possibility of finding an arrangement for closer com-
" mercial union with the Colonies, or though a discussion of the
" possibility of finding an arrangement for closer commercial union
" with the Colonies, may be the occasion for the summoning of the
" Conference, it is impossible, and it would be improper, that any such
'■ Conference shoiild be confined to that, or should be restricted from
" discussing anything connected with the closer union of one part
" of the Empire with the other. It would, indeed, violate the very
" fundamental condition which I believe to be essential to the value
" of such a Conference — the condition, I mean, that it should meet
"with perfect freedom, unhampered and unfettered." I quote that
for the purpose of showing that the late Government, which had in
view the present Conference, held that the discussion of the possibility
of fij.ding an arrangement for closer commercial union with the
C'-'onies was the occasion, or the prime occasion, for the summoning
o! this very Conference.
In order to avoid entering upon the field of British politics, so far
as it embraces proposals for Tariff Reform, I desire to exclude its
local relations from my remarks as much as possible. We have, how-
ever, had addressed to us in Austraha, an appeal on this question, so
unusual and emanating from a large number of representative Mem-
bers of the British Parliament, that one feels imder some obligation
to refer to it. This was an appeal from Members of the Imperial
Parliament to the electors of the Commonwealth of Australia. It
set out that in a few months they would be choosing representatives
in a Parliament of the Commonwealth, and that Fiscal Preference
was one of the questions to be submitted to them. Thinking this
gravely affected them, they addressed an appeal to our electors, tak-
ing the view that " there is no offer within your power to make " —
that is, within the Commonwealth's power — " that could compensate
us for a tax upon our food." Again, they speak of the possibility of
working men being " embittered by a sense of the wrong done to them
by a tax upon food." In conclusion, though it is a short address, they
protest in order that goodwill should be maintained between us, that
" you should not encourage those among you who are proposing to
put a tax upon our food."
Mr. ASQUITH: What is the date of that?
Mr. DEAKIN: June the 22nd, 1906. This appeal was made to
the electors of the Commonwealth of Australia, and those electors
have given their answer very decidedly. It was very much more in
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
favour of Preference than ever before — in favour of some degree or Eighth Day
kind of Preference, though doubtless differing as to its extent. The 30th April,
result showed certainly a majority of 3 to 1, and probably a larger
majority. By way of comment upon their plea, may I say that we
venture to hold their terminology rather inexact. What is called a
" tax" on food would be more appropriately referred to as a duty ;
and in our experience a duty is not a tax, of necessity; it need not
raise prices. We have illustrations within our own country in which
we have imposed duties of a definitely protectionist character, which
have not had the effect of raising prices in our community. Of
course, no statement whatever can be made as to the effect of " duties "
which would apply to all of them or even to many of them. They
may be of any height or of any character, apply to any part or totality
of a product. There are duties, some of which would be no tax at all,
some of which would impose a partial tax, and some which might be
wholly taxes. If I do not err, all the duties in this country, with pos-
sibly an exception for cocoa and chocolate, which have a slight pro-
tectionist flavour — with that single exception, so far as I know — the
duties in this country are imposed as taxes, so to speak; that is,
with the sole purpose of raising revenue. We, on the contrary, im-
pose duties from mixed motives; some purely to raise revenue;
others not only with the object of raising revenue, but of giving a
stimulus to local production; others to foster that production with-
out any regard to the amount of revenue that may accrue — these, of
course, are levied in differing proportions. To take the tariff of the
Commonwealth, or any other tariff, and analyse its duties, would re-
quire a very elaborate scheme of classification to discriminate between
the different effects which are either intended or aphieved.
With that preliminary caution may I say that this reference to a
tax on food appears to us to be appropriate enough, considering its
source, because the phrase was evidently used having regard to the
British tariff. There it is alleged that some 18,000,000?. is levied di-
rectly and I have seen another estimate which said 50,000.000Z. in-
directly, though I do not quite understand how that could be, upon
food and food products
Mr. ASQUITH: l^fainly drink.
Mr. DEAKIN: Does food include drink?
Mr. ASQUITH: It is a very simple matter. Our tariff consists,
so far as these things are concerned, of a tax upon various forms of
alcohol, tobacco, sugar, and tea, with one or two small duties like
those upon cocoa and dried fruits, which hardly count, and practically
that exhausts our tariff.
Mr. DEAKIN : I thought that physicians had settled the question
whether alcohol is a food or not.
Mr. ASQUITH: They are stiU disputing it.
Mr. DEAKIN: One further question which appears to be raised
— and I am entering into no academic discussion, — is, when a duty is
a tax, who pays that tax? I only refer to this because the subject
appears to be dealt with by a gentleman who, I understand, occupied,
and possibly still occupies, the highest position in the orthodox sect
of Free Traders. I think he was, if ho is not still, the Secretary of
the Cobden Club — Mr. Harold Cox, ]\r.P. In your debates, which I
had the opportunity of reading while journeying here, Mr. Cox's testi-
mony on that subject is remarkably clear. He pointed out that
240 COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. Canada had a substantial preferential tariff; the duties on British
30th April, goods were 2,000,000Z. a year. That was 33 per cent less than the duty
1 which would have been charged on the same goods if they had been
Preferential foreign goods; if the goods had been foreign, the duties would have
Trade. amounted to 3,000,000L, but, if he credited Canada with the 1,000,-
Daakiii "s 000?. she did not levy on our goods, he must also credit her with the
2,000,000Z. she did levy. We had, therefore, in his opinion, practically
to bear a burden of 2,000,000Z. in order to obtain a remission of 1,-
000,000?., which, he added, was hardly good business. Mr. Cox is an
authority, and when he says that the importing British merchant had
to bear the burden of the 2,000,000L of duties, he clearly asserts that
the importer pays the whole of the tax — the whole of the duty which
he prefers to call a " tax."
Mr. ASQUITH: I do not so understand it, but I am not con-
cerned in defending Mr. Cox.
Mr. DEAKIN : It is very hard to put any other meaning upon it.
He said we had practically to bear a burden of 2,000,000Z. — " we "
being the merchants of Great Britain — those who exported from
Great Britain for the purpose of importing into Canada. If they
bear the burden of 2,000,000Z. he does not suggest, I suppose, that the
Canadian people bear another 2,000,000Z. over again. That does seem
to me quite a hopeful light thrown upon the burden of duties borne
by the foreigner.
The reference that was made at the conclusion of the Parliamen-
tary appeal to the preservation of goodwill, is one to which there was
and always will be an instantaneous response. There can be no pos-
sible peril to goodwill in this matter. There may be a strong differ-
ence of opinion as to the best means of giving effect to that goodwill,
but certainly the sentiment would not be diminished by the particular
character of that opinion. We argue something in this way: All
trade, speaking broadly, exists for mutual profit, and is based upon
mutual profit. Just as every individual who engages in it desires to
have the largest trade possible, so does every nation. Nations, like
individuals, live by their labour, their production, and their exchange.
This is so true that not only are there wars in fact which are called
" commercial wars," but trade is always sought for by aggressive
means and sometimes fought for with the sword in order that it may
be acquired or retained. What we suggest is a trade in preferences,
in trade advantages whicli should be conceded to each other, on the
usual principle of trade, that it shall be to the benefit of both parties
concerned. So far as I am aware no one has yet fathered, or is likely
to father, any such proposition as that this matter of business is to bo
dealt with to the advantage of one of the parties only. There is not
any business of that character, or which is assumed to be of that char-
acter. It must yield mutual advantage, and of the value of that
advantage each party must be the judge.
Mr. ASQIirni: I entirely assent to that proposition, if I may
say so. .It admirably states the case.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is why the goodwill cannot be disturbed. It
must always be admitted that each of the parties to the bargain must
be the best judge of its own gain. We may have a strong and clear
opinion as to how the other bargainer should proceed, in his own
interest, but after all that is his affair. We may regret that wo
cannot do the business, but necessarily we must in every case bow
to his decision. So in the present instance it appears to us to bo
f
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 241
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
possible for each to impose duties on a certain scale — putting aside Eighth Day.
the advantage .which may he gained from those duties — granting ^ jg^'"^
each other preferences under them without loss or risk of loss.
The question, as it seems to me, which foreign nations will then Pr^erential
put to themselves is not whether duties have been imposed for this ,,
particular purpose by Great Britain or by Great Britain and all her Deakin.)
Dominions together. What the foreign exporter seeks is the best
market; the market whore he gets the best price, the biggest market.
The position of the United Kingdom appears to us to be so unique,
that it not only is to-day the best market for all the world, but may
easily continue to be still the best market for all the world outside
its own Dominions, even if preferences were conceded to those
Dominions when their goods were entering its ports. That, again,
is a business question. If the foreign producer can still sell in your
market at a profit, even though it be a smaller profit than now, so
long as it is a profit he will be induced to continue his trade. If,
as is probably the case, even with any duty which you would impose.
Great Britain still remained absolutely the best market in the world
to him, the fact that it was not as good as it had been would not
operate. Markets vary everywhere, owing to circumstances too many
even to indicate. Merchants are accustomed to sell, sometimes in
good, and sometimes in indifferent, markets, and it does appear to
us from our point of view that we are not suggesting anything un-
reasonable in the proposals we make even in respect of food stuffs
and raw materials, both of which we quite admit should be most
carefully scrutinised before they could be dealt with. The special
circumstances of this country seem to us to offer a margin in which
both of those coiild be dealt with, and effectively dealt with to our
great gain, yet without altering the place which the United King-
dom occupies to-day as probably the best market for them in the
world.
It is not for us to propose a new or criticise your present fiscal
policy, but we may remark that consideration for your own British
industries might lead to duties being levied, the object of which
would be either to revive those industries which had suffered or were
suffering, or to expan.d those already existing. That involves another
set of principles altogether, and I should be distinctly departing from
the rule laid down for myself if I entered upon any discussion of the
merits or demerits of local protection. It ought to be clearly under-
stood that my reason for mentioning it is this : that when the outer
Dominions suggest a preference they not only believe that you should
have that opportunity of profit, but also that in considering any
proposal for preference to them, the first obligation upon every
British Parliament is to consider its own citizens, its own industries,
and its own advantage first. So far as you might think it right to
exclude us and everyone else from your own markets in order to
maintain, or retain, or extend any kind of production or interest
of your own, it would be impossible for us to raise one word of
complaint. That is entirely a matter for the discretion of the people
and the Parliament of Great Britain. Ifay I be forgiven for even
mentioning this truism, because it occasionally is inferred that the
attitude we adopt is of another character — that we are looking for
same sort of eleemosynary aid which is to be given in consideration
of our youth and inexperience. We may be youthful, but in this
matter we are fairly experienced. In our own tariffs we distinctly
58—16
242 COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. study our own interests, and hold that the same duty rests as seri-
""■^h Ay-'''
1907
07^"^ ' ously upon the Government and representatives of the people of this
country as it does upon us. We approach this question of prefer-
^''^^''®'^*^^*1 ence with that preliminary admission, it ought not to he necessary
,j, " to mention it, that of course our proposal is made, admitting that,
Deakin.) first of all, you should consider your own industries, your own pro-
duction, and your own people, and impose whatever duties you think
fit in regard to them. Only after that should you undertake to go
further and enter upon the question of preference, when you see it
to he to your advantage so to do. I use the word " advantage " in
that last connection, as going perhaps, beyond pounds, shillings, and
pence, either in the matter of revenue received or preference con-
ceded. If the result of granting a preference is, for instance, tO
largely build up the Dominion beyond the Seas, it should he re-
membered that they were, are, and are likely to remain the best
customers of this country. Consequently you tave a direct trade
interest in multiplying their population and increasing their con-
suming power by means of preferences.
The question of preference comes in only after you have con-
sidered your own interests, your own social system, your own
financial system, your own industrial system, and whatever else you
think fit to take into account. On this matter we have no dogmas;
our own method is to study each industry and its needs, or each kind
of production, by itself in a business light, and to see how far it is
likely to pay the country to foster it or to ignore it. Just in the
degree that we deem it to be a good business proposition, we
undertake without fear the experiment of fiscally assisting it. If
it appears to us an unattractive business proposition, we let it alone.
We are bound by no shibboleths; we simply, to the best of our
ability, deal with our duties as a merchant deals with his own
business in his own interest. Preference for Preference we hope
and believe would be profitable to both. We have the strongest
reasons, we think, for believing it; at all events, we are satisfied
that it could be made profitable to us.
There is one illustration of the method we ourselves attempt to
apply, which appears to us to be practical. It is in a Blue Book
published in 1904, headed " East India Tariffs ; Views of the Govern-
ment of India on the question of Preferential Tariffs." To that is
annexed a general report as to which I have nothing to say, as it
relates to India. I find Enclosure No. 1 is a minute of Sir Edward
Law, K.C.M.G., C.S.I., Financial Member of the Council of the
Viceroy and Governor-General of India, dated 31st August, 1903.
What is valuable is the manner in which the relation of India to
each country is treated. It is handled precisely as we endeavour to
handle each proposal for a new customs duty— either its increase or
its decrease — but here it is treated in relation to the possibiUties of
retaliation. Each country that trades with India is taken separately;
the quantum of the trade is given; the subject matter of that trade
defined ; its value to the customer country is considered ; and the
trade from India to that country is also passed in review. That
memorandum exhibits exactly the method in which in the Common-
wealth we ondenvour to approach nny such proposals. Sir Edward
Law complains of the deficiency of his materials, and speaks tenta-
tively just na one would do under the circumstances, but what is per-
tinent in this particular connection ia his study of export and import
Deakin.)
COLOKIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 243
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
trade and its character and possibilities on both sides. That repre- Eighth Day.
sents a business-like way of disposing of questions of this kind, ex- ^flth April,
haustivaly having regard to the materials at hand, so that I have
taken the opportunity of quoting it as a better illustration than any Preferential
statement of the way in which wc try to handle such matters. Trade.
Before closing this argument, may I say that a good deal appears ni«v^n
to us to depend upon what you make the unit of your consideration. I
have already admitted that the British tariff should be dealt with,
taking the United Kingdom as the unit first, and that the other units
should come afterwards. At the same time, those other units to-
gether with the United Kingdom make up what we speak of as the
British Empire. The view that has very strongly pressed us in rela-
tion to all these questions of the tarifiF and a great variety of other
questions, especially such as we have been considering at this Con-
ference, is the future of the larger unit, the Empire as a whole. After
the United Kingdom has studied its individual interests; after Cana-
da and the Commonwealth, and South Africa, have studied their
individual interests within themselves, and in their dealings with
each other, necessarily the greater question presents itself as to the
mutual possibilities which those units possess to-day. Their fortunes
are bound up together, their trade and commerce are mostly with each
other. You come then to the next stage of the question which is
quite separate from the first, because you have a great political mo-
tive for inquiring how far it is possible for these units to assist each
other by interchange. That interchange must be mutually profit-
able in itself, and even if it were only slightly profitable might be-
come of immense importance as a factor in the interests of the group
of units of the Empire considered as a whole. Whatever the possibili-
ties of trade may be between us, and they appear to our minds to be
considerable, we are never blind to the fact that closer relations of this
kind might play a most important part in ways too numerous to men-
tion not only in bringing us together, but in keeping us together and
making us stronger by union for national business bargains. Cer-
tainly we should then become better equipped for making those bar-
gains which nations from time to time enter into in order to pre-
serve the peace of the world. We proceed on the supposition, which
is much more than a supposition to us, that it is possible in this way
to strengthen the Empire as a whole, and this becomes one of the
strongest motives we have for looking hopefully to movements of
this kind, even while we recognise that they have to begin as business
operations, and cannot succeed if they are conducted, or sought to
be conducted, in breach of business principles.
So far as I can speak for the people of Australia, this motive —
speaking of them as a whole — counts for as much as any promise
of direct material advantage to themselves, if you can speak of direct
material advantage to us, apart from that of the whole Empire. Per-
sonally, I do not think you can. United as we are, the benefit of one
must be a benefit to all. and, of course, the benefit of two is better
than the benefit of one, and so on. But, for the moment, speaking
as if the interests could be severed, I believe a motive quite as strong
and probably stronger than that of the money gain or advantage of
this trade, influences the bulk of the people of Australia, through the
idea of having more intimate relations with their own countrymen
and being more united with them in peace as well as in war. They
look to the operation of trade and to its great agencies, particularly
the shipping of the Empire, to uphold the proud position which it
244 COLOyiAl COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. occupies to-day. Lord Tweedmouth, when he was with us, mentioned
'"^'igw"^ some very striking figures on that point. Not the least by any means
'- of the advantages of the increase of trade within the Empire is an
Preferential increase in the strength of the mercantile marine with its general
^^ *■ relation to naval supremacy, and also in itseK a great means of
Daakin.) employment and source of national strength. Anything that mul-
tiplies the shipping of the Empire, any devices that increase its cable
communications and postal facilities are all extremely valuable
means of unity to be sought in themselves quite apart from preferen-
tial trade, but where preferential trade helps them, it is another argu-
ment for preferential trade to whatever extent it encourages them.
Ships and cables, and rapid regular frequent communication in all
forms appeal very strongly to the people of Australia, perhaps be-
cause they are, with New Zealand, the most remote outposts. We
look forward with hope to increasing every means of inter-Imperial
alliances in associations with trade, and also independently of it by
other and more direct means.
' In the Australian attitude on this question, and I believe the at-
titude to be the same in all the other Dominions, these really are
very considerable motives. Our people and the thoughtful all the
world over recognise the immense advantage of the support they gain
from each other as parts of this Empire. They cherish that union
and desire to possess even stronger ties than exist at present. They
realise that the modern world is fuU of critical occasions, especially
for a great world power with enterprising rivals, and are very anxious
that any means of making the Empire more distinctly self-dependent
both in peace and war, should also be sought and used with a view to
possible emergencies. So, from quite a variety of what you might
consider at first sight outside considerations, they are powerfully
drawn towards the proposal which is roughly embodied in the resolu-
tions now submitted to the Conference. Peace, education, progress,
our independence, and the maintenance of our social conditions, are
all bound up with the capacity of the empire to hold its own even
against hostilities. Years ago I had occasion to point out to those
with whom I am associated in the Commonwealth, that we owed our
opportunities and possibilities to the shelter of the position which we
enjoyed under the flag, and to remind them that what we prize in the
way of liberties, institutions, opportunities, racial relations, and
IX)weE depended upon the maintenance of this Empire and its strong
arm. Many of them share that view. That is the deepest self-interest
we have in union — an interest which we share in common with you.
The possibilities of the severence of this Empire, of its defeat and
destruction, are too painful to contemplate, and, thank Heaven! in
no prospect that we can see. But the mere suggestion of them and
their possibilities makes us turn with even more intense anxiety to-
wards every opportiinity, small or large, which we can find for pre-
paring ourselves against a day of trial and for securing what we hold
dearer perhaps than life. To us it appears that henceforth the indivi-
dual will become more and more dependent upon the social and na-
tional structure in which he finds a place. It makes all the differ-
ence whether you are grains of sand or the same grains compacted
into solid rock. Anything that encourages the development of Im-
perial organization, which, without limiting the self-governing powers
of the several parts, or unduly trespassing on the individual liberty
of the citizen, shall compact them together in co-operative relations
for the discharge of social duties, political obligations and industrial
COLOXIAL COyFEliEXCE, 1907
215
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
efforts — every possible increase of that co-operation — marks a higher Eighth Day.
stage in civilisation, giving greater opportunities to the individual ^''**\qj^P'''''
and greater strength to the nation to which he belongs. That is a L
political gospel. The nation and the individual act and re-act upon Preferential
each other, and in the British Empire we think we see the greatest -irade.
future at present open to any people for that inter-action affording
the fullest free play to individual energy and enterprise, and at the
same time by willing consent uniting its peoples together for their
great common ends of one national destiny.
Coming down from general considerations to the proposals em-
bodied in this Resolution, while the motives by which we are attracted
are of that general nature, they are supported by reasons of a much
more precise character. I see to-day in one of your leading news-
papers, an article by Mr. John Holt Schooling, a well-known writer,
whose diagrams elucidate so many problems. He furnishes several
tables, one relating to India, which are devised on a new plan of tak-
ing yearly averages during each decade. The general result of his
examination of the Indian figures is that they show a continuous fall
of imports from the United Kingdom as compared with imports from
all countries. Then we come to the Australian Commonwealth, and
commencing with the year 1880, when the imports from the United
Kingdom were 72-2 per cent of the imports from all the countries
into the Commonwealth, he shows their steady decline dowTi to 1905,
when the percentage of proportion had fallen to 61-3 per cent. This
he terms a large and continuous fall. Of course, this table does not
include oiir inter-State trade.
Mr. ASQUITH: What do you say the figures are now?
Mr. DEAKIN: For 1905 he gives the imports from the United
Kingdom as 61-3 per cent of the total imports from all countries.
He dpes not take 1906.
Mr. ASQUITH: I think all the figures are not out yet.
Mr. DEAKIN: I have, I think, the 1906 figures with me. He
summarises it in this fashion : " What has been the course of trade
" during 1880-1905 ? Australia's purchases from all countries have
" risen, and Australia's purchases from the United Kingdom have
"fallen. The latter were 24-3 million pounds yearly during the first
"decade, and 22-4 million pounds yearly during the last decade.
" These two opposite courses of trade produce in combination the
" result disclosed in the last column of Table II. A large and con-
" tinuous fall has occurred in the United Kingdom's share of Aus-
" tralian markets. For example, during the first decade our share was
"72-7Z. per lOOZ. of Australia's purchases. During the last decade
"our share had fallen to 61 -3^ per lOOL And the fall was continu-
" ous. Not only are we making less advance in foreign markets than
" is made b.y our trade rivals, but also we are losing our place as a
" seller in the market of British Colonies. One of the causes of this
" loss of position by us in foreign markets and in the markets of
" British Colonies is the fact that we give to each of our rivals a
" great trade advantage. We give to our rivals a free market of
"43,000,000 persons in the United Kingdom, to add to their own
" free market in their own country. For example, the United States
"possess an open market of 82,000,000 persons in the United States,
" plus an open market of 43,000,000 persons in the United Kingdom —
" total, 125,000,000. But the United Kingdom possesses an open
" market of 43,000,000 in the United Kingdom, which, moreover, is
246 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1903
Eighth Day. " considerably interfered with by the foreign goods we buy." His
l^^ third table deals with Canada, and shows in the same way a large
and continuous fall. The fourth table deals with the Straits Settle-
P''^®'"®"*'^! ments, with a similar result, and the last table deals with the Cape of
,ji, ■ Good Hope, also showing a large fall.
Deakin.) Mr. ASQUITH: What do you mean by a large fall?
Mr. DEAKIN: In percentage.
Mr. ASQUITH: A large fall in the aggregate, or a large faU in
proportion to the whole?
Mr. DEAKTN: In proportion to the whole. For instance, the
percentage in Cape Colony dropped from 80-3 in 1880, in 65-4 last
year. It is in its proportions that he is measuring it.
Then, looking a little more closely at the course of British and
Australian trade, I find that the greater part of the goods that
Australia purchases abroad are still obtained in Great Britain, and
to that country a large proportion of Australian produce is exported.
But though British superiority as the chief market for Atistralian
trade is maintained, the extent of that superiority has distinctly
diminished. Take the official figures of the development of British
trade from 1860 onwards : they represent the average annual im-
portations into Australia from Great Britain in each decennial period
of goods of British or Irish origin. The figures are, for the period
1860-69, omitting odd figures, 12,400,000L; 1870-79, 14,400,000Z. ;
1880-89, 21,700,000?.; 1890-99, 18,400.000?.; and 1900-05, a quin-
quennial period, 20,800,000?.
Mr. ASQUITH: Those are British imports into Australia.
Mr. DEAEJN: The average annual imports into Australia from
Great Britain, during that decennial period, show that increase, which
has then to be measured with the general increase of our trade. It
has been urged that an important influence affecting British trade is
the loss of the direct carriage of goods produced in the continent of
Europe, which formerly were sent to Australia by way of England.
Mr. Schooling did not deal with this, but took the imports in gross,
that is to say. he took all those as English which came from England,
and the balance as foreign. It is impossible during the earlier years
above referred to. to distinguish directly from the trade statistics,
either of Australia or of the United Kingdom the amount of foreign
goods imported into Australia by way of England. But though the
total of all goods not of British origin is not known, yet a. competent
Australian authority has been able to make for me a close dissection
of the returns, with the results shown in the following table. From
this, it will be seen that there has been little change in the volume of
foreign exports to Australia coming by way of England during the
last 20 years. Look at the average annual imports into Australia
from foreign countries, distinguishing the value of goods coming di-
rect or by way of England; in 1800-69 ihe direct importations were
3,200,000?.; imported by way of England. 700,000?.— total, 4,000,000?.;
in 1870-79, direct importations were 2,800,000?. ; imported by way
of England, 1,140,000?.— total, 4.000,000?.; in lSSO-89. direct im-
portations, 4,900,000?.; imported by way of England, 2,000,-
000?.— total, 6,900,000?. ; in 1890-99, direct importations, .5.900,000?. ;
imported by way of England, 1,500,000?.— total, 7..500,000?. ; and
in 1904-05, direct importations, 11,300,000?.; imported by way of
England, 2,400,000?.— total, 13.700,000?. Having put these two
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
247
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
general sets of figures before you, let us now note the respective Eighth Day.
positions which Britain and foreign countries hold in the Australian '*'*'\qjw^'^'^'
market. The changes that have taken place during the last 40 years 1
disclose this : the average annual import into Australia in the
decennial periods, beginning in 1860 and ending in 1905, that last
period being five years only, was, for the first period, from the United
Kingdom, 12,400,000L; foreign countries, 4,00O,O00Z.; the next period
(1870-79), from the United Kingdom, 14,400,000Z. ; foreign countries,
4,000,000Z.; the next period (1880-89), from the United Kingdom,
21,700,000/.; foreign countries. 6,900,000L; the next decennial period
(1890-99), from the United Kingdom. 18,400,000L ; foreign countries,
7,500,000Z. ; and the last quinquennial period (1900-05), from the
United Kingdom, 20,800,000Z. ; foreign countries, 13,7O0,0O0Z Put-
ting it in another way, if the trade of the United Kingdom be
represented by 100, then the foreign imports into Australia for those
periods are represented by 32, 28, 32, 41, and 66 respectively, showing
a very remarkable growth in the latter period.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: You have not the exports to foreign
countries ?
Mr. DEAKIN : Not in this. The,y, too, show an increase.
Mr. ASQUITH: Foreign countries have been buying your goods
and paying for them by selling their goods to you.
Mr. DEAKIN : Buying more wool. Formerly you took nearly all
our wool, but now foreign nations take a share. Those figures show
that a change is taking place in the character of Australian imports,
and what that change is. The most important developments in the
foreign trade of our country have been those manifested during the
last 20 years of that period. If we use quinquennial instead of
decennial periods the returns of the Statistician's Office in Sydney
which have been generally relied upon in local discussions show that
in 1881-85 the imports from the United Kingdom represented a
value of 24,400,000?. as compared with 6,S0O,00OZ. from foreign coun-
tries, the latter being 28 per cent of the former; in 1901-05 the respec-
tive values were 20,400,000?. and 13,800,000?., the imports of Australia
from foreign countries being, therefore 67:5 per cent of the imports
from the United Kingdom. Put that another way. While British
exports to Australia fell away during the 20 years to the extent of
4,000,000?., foreign exports were increased by 7.000,000?. Here let
me guard against a misapprehension. The development of Austra-
lian industries, to which in some quarters this great shifting of our
purchases has been attributed, cannot be pleaded as a sufficient cause
for the decline of the British-Australian trade, because, as the figures
just cited show, however local production may have grown, and what-
ever other influence it may have had \ipon our growth there has been
a substantial increase in the combined British and foreign imports
into Australia during the past 20 years. It is not necessary for the
purpose of this argument to trace in detail the classes of British
goods that are being replaced by foreign-made goods, but, speaking
generally, and taking the year 1885 as the point of comparison, the
trade returns show substantial losses of British trade are caused by
foreign gains in haberdashery and apparel, cement, earthern and
china ware, cabinet and upholstery ware, glass manufactures, hard-
ware and cutlery, wrought and unwrought leather, paper, silk manu-
factures, some classes of woollens and many other articles of minor
248
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1901
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. importance. The character of the losses of British exports is plain
1907^'^ ' — ^^^y ^'® ^^ manufactured goods and in classes of those goods in
which our local manufacturers are not conspicuous.
Mr. ASQUITH : Which are the classes of your own local or
native manufacturers which you have shown in this development —
wool?
Mr. DEAKIN : We do not reckon wool as a manufacture except
as woollen cloth.
Mr. ASQUITH : Yes. I meant yarn or cloth.
Mr. DEAKIN: Speaking from memory there has been a growth,
of woollen manufacture. There may be some increase in the making
of apparel.
Mr. ASQUITH: Boots and shoes?
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, some increase, but none, I think, in cabinet
or upholstery ware worth mentioning, nor in glass, hardware, and
cutlery (cutlery we do not manufacture), nor in paper or silk manu-
factures.
Mr. ASQUITH : I suppose you have practically no cutlery manu-
factures ?
Mr. DEAKIN : None. Our manufactures are still in their
infancy.
To interpret these facts aright, one or two possible explanations
suggested must be disposed of. The expansion of the foreign at the
expense of the British trade with Australia is not due to any superior
quality or cheapness of the foreign-made article. England can manu-
facture most descriptions of exportable goods as cheaply as can any
foreign country, and there need be no increase of general prices to
the Australian consumer, had the Mother Country a larger share of
the Australian import trade. Of course, some portion of British
loss of trade, has, undoubtedly, arisen from the conservativeness of
British methods, but the extent of the loss thus arising has Deen
greatly overrated. The present position of British trade in Australia
is almost wholly due to the settled policy adopted by most foreign
countries, of reserving their home markets for their home produce,
and reserving their competition for other, especially British markets,
for by this policy they are enabled, stop by step, to oust Great Britain
from the trade of her possessions.
Something must be said of the manner in which foreign trade
is conducted, for this is detrimental to the interests of all the produc-
ing States that receive their goods. It has been amply demonstrated
tliat the practice of " Dmupiiig." or the placing of large quantities
of produce below cost price, tends to destroy established industries
in t'ne countries receiving the dumped goods. This practice is at
times largely employed by foreign mnnufncturcrs to injure British
trade, not only in Australia but everywhere. Great Britain gets noth-
ing in return for her gift of her markets from her rivals. She makes
them a present of it, and, so far as I have observed, doe^ not even
secure their friendship in return.
Mr. ASQUITH: Can you give me any case of dumping in Aus-
tralia on a siibstantial scale?
Mr. DEAKIN : We have, of course a good deal of what you may
call casual or irregular dumping of cheap shiploads. Those I do not
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 249
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
dwell upon. The chief danger that wc have to cope with lately was Eighth Day.
with regard to agricultural implements, which, from information '*"''l™P"^'
received, were manufactured in the United States. We had reason L
to believe that these were being brought in with the intention of Preferential
being sold under cost in order to cripple and destroy the local manu- ^^ ®"
facture. We have dealt with that in a very drastic fashion by an Deakin.)
Act which will enable us to cope with the great Trust that is under-
stood to be behind this operation. That is the most conspicuous case
recently.
Mr. ASQUITH: Were not they let in free under your tariff?
Mr. DEAIvIN: Not harvesters, strippers, and binders to which
I am referring now, and which were dealt with under a particular
law passed last session.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: What is the tariflF on those?
Mr. DEAKIN : It was 12 J per cent, on the value, but now we have
a fixed duty of 12/. each machine.
Mr. ASQUITH: When did that happen?
Mr. DEAIvIN : Last year, foreign manufacturers are able to
attack our market by having behind them the security of their own
market with free access to British markets, and by reason of the
comparative lightness of the Australian tariff to invade Australian
markets also.
Glancing for a moment at another aspect, may I notice in passing,
the extent to which foreign countries have prevented the natural in-
crease of British trade. In the ten years 1895-1905 British exports
to British possessions, including Australia, increased from 91 to
134 millions, while the exports of foreign countries increased from
51 to 103 millions. Taking goods, the produce and manufacture of
Great Britain, the export to British possessions in 1905 was 113
milious, or only 10 millions in excess of the exports of its foreign
competitors. Indeed, if India be omitted from consideration, the
foreign imports into British Colonies exceed in value those of British
origin. Now this great change has not been brought about by
ordinary commercial methods. The gradual exclusion of Great
Britain and her possessions from foreign markets is, of course, delib-
erate, intentional, and consistent. Not only do foreign countries,
for the most part, reserve their home market to themselves, as far as
it has been practicable and politic for them to do so, but by subsidies,
bounties, and trade regulations, they stimulate their own exports, and
materially restrict those of their rivals. I can only follow this part of
the subject a short distance, but it is a very important part, though
the means used are much more than fiscal. The point which cannot
be overlooked, and must be kept constantly in mind, is that our trade
is affected very largely, and will be injured in future by the aggres-
sive policy adopted by foreign countries. Australia, as a producing
nation would be vastly benefitted if it could send its goods everywhere
on fair terms; but our commercial rivals exclude us with impunity
from great areas which do not produce naturally the goods which we
could send them if these restrictions were removed. It is not possible,
for example, to send anything to Gorman Colonies, for not only does
their Government subsidise its ships to carry produce cheaply Cthe
sum of 350,000/. a year being spent in shipping bounties'), but in
German Colonies German goods are either exempt from customs
250 COLONIAL CONFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. duties entirely, or are taxed at a low scale, while other goods have to
""'^h Ap--'
1907.
i«J"^' ' pay high import duties. This is Preference carried to an extreme.
It has the full effect intended by its authors of restricting German
^^^'^j"*''^^ Colonies to German commerce. But, beyond this, both on their
(Mr home and colonial railways, German goods intended for export are
Deakin.) carried at almost nominal rates.
France adopts a somewhat similar position. The laws regulating
the commerce of that country with her Colonies and Dependencies
are so framed as to discriminate largely in favour of French pro-
ducts and French shipping. Some little time ago an endeavour was
made to open a market for Australian produce in France; it was
then found that butter coming from Australia was subject to more
than twice the duty imposed on the produce of the United States,
Denmark, Belgium, and other countries, the produce of these States
being in turn subject to a considerable impost. In fact, the French
market was practically and designedly shut to our produce. Nor
do our disabilities end with duties on manufactured goods, for though
few countries deliberately put duties on raw material of manufactures,
yet America levies over 50 per cent, on Australian wool, and this
practically closes the American market to the chief Australian staple.
It is needless to recapitulate the various difficulties which the Austra-
lian exporter has to contend with in all other countries than Great
Britain, especially while the Mother Country herself will not dis-
criminate between us. The only articles which foreign countries
seem willing to take are raw materials absolutely necessary for their
own manufactures. This is a subject which, from a British point
of view alone, might be pressed very far. Of course, that is not my
business. We have to face the facts as we find them, dealing so far
as we can with political attacks upon trade by a political defence of
trade, and undertaking any reprisals which may be necessary to that
end.
On all sides the export trade of Australia is blocked by ever in-
creasing barriers by foreign countries. Europe ought to be an excell-
ent market for Australian mutton and beef, as many European
workpeople hardly ever have meat to eat — or do not regularly have
meat to eat — yet we have practically no trade of this kind whatever
with any European country except England. Nearly every European
Government has erected, in the interests of its agrarian population,
restrictions cither by way of customs duties or of regulations ostensi-
bly in the interests of health, which effectually prevent the develop-
ment of trade. I am indebted to Mr. Coghlan, the Agent-General
for New South Wales, who recently visited Germany, for the infor-
mation that the wholesale price of ninton there is over (id. per pound.
That country inii)osr>s upon incut a duty of seven-eighths of a (lenny
per pound, with the immediate possibility of an increase to 2j(f. which
is the duty fixed under the new tariff. In any circumstances this
latter duty is proliibitive, but in order to make it absolutely certain
that no Australian mutton can be sent to Germany, the line of
steamers trading between Germany and Australia, which is sub-
sidised by the German Government, is expressly debarred by its
charter from bringing into Germany from Australia fresh or frozen
meat, butter, dairy produce, and cereals. Here, again, a sliipping
subsidy strikes, and strikes hard, against British trade. As if this
were not enough to prevent importations, there are restrictions, nom-
inally in the interests of sanitation, of the most rigorous order. It is
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
251
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
provided, for example, that in regard to frozen beef, the breast, peri- Eighth Day.
toneum, hinfrs, heart, kidneys, and in the case of cows, the udder ^'^^^'lo^^'^'''
also with the lymphatic glands belonging thereto, must be united to
the carcase in their natural arrangement. Carcases divided into
halves must be packed together, and the head of the lower jaw with
the masticatory muscles must be imported with the carcase in such
a way that it can be seen at a glance that they belong to
it. This provision would exclude, as it is intended to
exclude, Australian meat from the German market, even if there
were no duty. A similar system is now being proposed,
I think, in Sweden. In France the practice in regard to frozen mut-
ton and beef is much the same as in Germany. The duty on mutton
is IJd. per pound, with a surtax of 25s. per ton where the meat is not
imported direct from the country of origin. Hence, if any Australian
mutton is first sent to England and then on to France, it has to pay
a higher duty. At one time there was the prospect of considerable
development in the tinned meat trade of Australia, especially with
Germany, but the importation of this class of meat is now entirely
prohibited. In France, tinned meats are allowed to be imported;
but the duty of J(f. per pound for direct shipment with the other
charges on the tins and on the cases, brings the duty to nearly l^.d
per pound. The policies of other countries of Europe follow on
much the same lines. Where a nominal duty is insufficient to keep out
our products, the agrarian party obtains the imposition of sanitary
and port regulations which effectually prevent any importation of
meats and dairy produce whatever. These details I fear are rather
tedious to you, but they are very practical to us.
Mr. ASQUITH : These are the very things we want to get.
Mr. DEAKIN: They show what we have to face in other
markets.
Mr. ASQUITH: In reference to what you have been saying, let
me call your attention to two or three figures as regards Australian
trade with Europe. -The total Australian exports to foreign coun-
tries in the year 1891 were 7,725,000Z. ; in the year 1905 they were
17,619,000?.; in other words, they had increased between two and three
times. In the corresponding years in 1891, the Australian exports to
the United Kingdom were 25,500,000?. in round figures, and in 1905
26,700,0001., an increase of l-25th. It hardly looks as if you had been
blocked out of the European market.
Mr. DEAKIN: Tou have been blocked, in our opinion, from
anything like your fair share of our natural increase. Apart from
the purchases which they make from us because they are bound to
make them, there was no reason why your proportion of our trade
should not have been increased also.
Mr. ASQUITH: I was dealing with the argument that you were
being excluded from foreign markets. Take the markets you have
mentioned — Germ.nny and France. 1891 seems to have been a low
year, and therefore I will not take it for Germanv, but I will take
1892.
Sir JOSEPH "WARD : I think that is wool, chiefly.
Mr. ASQUITH : I have here only the total exports.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is chiefly wool.
Mr. ASQUITH : No, doubt, chiefly wool.
252
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ioth' A ^if ■ ^'^ •'^^^SEPH WAED : That is wool, a great proportion of which
1907. ' formerly came to London for sale, and was then transferred to the
Continent, but their own steamers take it direct there now.
Trade. Mr. ASQUITH: Be it so. I only want the fact. For Germany
(Mr. the total was l,77O,0O0Z. in 1892, and last year 5,088.000^. ; for France
Asquith.) it was 1,857,000Z. in 1892, and 5,762,OOoL in 1905.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Does that include minerals?
Mr. ASQUITH: I think so.
Mr. DEAKIN : Our wool and ores are taken to Germany to be
smelted. We mine, but unfortunately do not manufacture them. If
you take out the wool and the ores, you will find next to nothing
left. The German manufacturers are using more wool. Their wool-
len manufactures are growing. They have a high standing in metal-
lurgy, and take our ores instead of you.
Mr. ASQUITH: You could not send all that wool here, could
you?
Mr. DEAELN: We send about 10,000,000Z. worth. Formerly that
was bought here, or a good deal of it, for them; now they buy direct.
Mr. ASQUITH: No doubt it goes direct there.
Dr. JAMESON: Your argument would be that you could not
send that wool here if the German manufacturers did not come
here.
Mr. DEAKIN: There is a great deal I would like to say on this
point, but feel I am saying so much already.
Mr. ASQUITH: Not at all. I thought you would not mind my
pointing out, in passing, that your total exports to foreign countries
have increased from 7,O0O,0O0Z. to 17,000,000Z.
M DEAKIN: No doubt; Australia is very dependent at the
present stage of its development on the export of raw materials, and
these are raw materials. These are not affected by our fiscal policy
or by the German fiscal policy, because it does not pay them to do it;
but if they could deal with our wool and ores as they deal with our
meat or any of our manufactured products, none of them would go
into Germany. They are taken, at the present time, in order that
their manufacturers may be supplied. They turn our wool into cloth,
smelt our ores, and manufacture them into machinery, or into pig
iron and send it out to us to compete with your iron. Their tariff
is framed directly in their own interest. It is to their interest to get
wool and ores, and, therefore, they take them. It is not in their own
interest to take manufactured goods, and, therefore, they do not take
either yours or ours.
Mr. ASQUITH: And, as you are largely producers of raw ma-
terial, you are not injured by the German tariff to that extent?
^fr. DEAKIN: No, but we are injured in regard to the foods
which they decline to take.
Mr. ASQUITH: Wliat do they do with your wheat?
Mr. DEAKIN: They take some, but not much. Germany, like
France, is still largely an agricultural country.
Mr. ASQUITH : It imports a good deal.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Germany imports more than France.
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
253
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DE AKIN : Yes ; but both France and Germany, in contrast ?i8^''\ '^Y'
with Great Britain, are agricultural producers themselves. ISO?!"^' '
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : There is increased importation of
wheat every year in Germany.
Mr. DEAKIN: I should think there would be owing to the de-
velopment of their manufactures.
ITr. ASQUITH : And the increase of their population.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, their population has increased very ma-
terially with the increase of employment.
Mr. ASQUITH : I only interrupted to clear it up as we go along.
Mr. DEAKIN: Quite so. Fiscal questions interest us a great
deal, and I was rather afraid how far I should travel if I did not limit
myself to one line of argument. I am speaking now from notes.
Mr. ASQUITH: This concrete part, if I may venture to say so,
is most important.
Mr. DEAKIN: Without going further into details or multiply-
ing proofs, it may therefore, be broadly asserted that Australia ob-
tains fair play from no foreign country. Until a different attitude
is adopted by such rivals our chief hope of expansion lies in the fur-
ther development of the trade we already enjoy with the Mother
Country. Although we receive neither more nor less consideration
here than they do, it would be well worth our while to enter into an
equitable arrangement with you to do so, if only because of the busi-
ness possibilities of that trade. Your market is a very valuable mark-
et and an open market, while their markets, however valuable, in
great degree, except for raw materials and only for some of those,
remain closed markets. The next question is whether we
are helpers, whether we have no means left to us of protecting our-
selves and helping each other against the offensive action of foreign
rivals. From the latest published returns it would appear that Brit-
ain and British possessions purchase annually goods to the enormous
value of 800 millions sterling. Out of this sum the share of the
Mother Country alone amounts to 565 millions, of which, it may be
Said in passing, only 50 millions are at present the subject of any
duty.
A careful analysis of the imports into Great Britain has been
made for me, and from this it would appear that, excluding wool from
the 565 millions just referred to, 213,000.000L represents the value
of produce which Australia could supply wholly or in part. At the
present time, the import of Great Britain from Australia of these
goods is not more than 10,000,000/., while produce to the value of 42
millions is obtained from other British possessions. This shows that
the share of foreign countries in British trade is 160,000,OOOZ., that
is to say, more than 16 times that obtained by Australia, and be-
tween three and four times that of the whole of the British possessions
taken together. As I have said elsewhere, in modem markets it is
the seller who is the courtier — the buyer is king. That is the key of
the situation. The possession and exercise of this huge purchasing
power furnishes a strong instrument by the courageous but cautious
use of which justice could be secured to British goods and to goods
of the Colonies, especially if the whole Empire were to combine as
one. We need dread no retaliation nor employ anything like the whole
of the authority which our purchasing power carries with it. A mere
254 COLONIAL GOyFEREyCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. exhibition of readiness to use it on occasion would enormously im-
1907 '^' P''"^® o"' opportunities, and to oui minds your opportunities, and
might most materially multiply ours at the same time. So far as we
^'^Trad''*^*^ must import it would seem to be true patriotism to favour Great
,j£j. " Britain with our custom, and so far as Great Britain must import,
Deakin.) that she should obtain her goods from her Possessions beyond the
seas. This would be real and effective patriotism with or without
duties against foreigners. A decay of British trade means the decay
of British power and prestige, but it is idle to expect that individual
efforts alone can accomplish either unity for the defence of our ter-
ritories or unity in the defence of our trade. Only our several States
can act effectually and to act effectively, they must act together.
Preferential trade and retaliation against foreign countries which
penalise our trade are among the several means by which the Empire
can recover its loss of ground and prevent further loss to its material
interests. So far as Australia is concerned the advantages of receiv-
ing preferential treatment from Great Britain are too obvious to
require demonstration. Allusion has, however, been made to the pro-
duce imported into the United Kingdom which Australia might sup-
ply, because an extension of our export trade is absolutely necessary
for us in the present state of our development. The position of Aus-
tralia is, in some respects, unique. It has an immense undeveloped
territory and resources, but a small population occupying that terri-
tory, and, consequently, a very limited market. Moreover, as the
Australian population increases very slowly in proportion to its
sphere and opportunities its home market is not expanding equally
with the development of its industries. Out of 2,000 million acres
vidthin its territory there are less than 9i millions under cultivation,
and this area could be added to almost illimitably. Its total produc-
tion, both of primary and secondary industries, amounts to 128,-
000,000?. sterling, and of this quantity not more than 71 millions
sterling are required for local consumption. It is, therefore, plain
that if further development is to take place, especially in the primary
industries of the country, one essential factor of that development is
the opening up and maintenance of outside markets for its produce.
It is also plain that the peopling and development of Australia makes
for the strengthening of the Empire in men and means, in trade and
in national power.
The first resolution recorded on this subject by the Conference of
1902 is an emphatic recognition and declaration of this all-dominating
consideration. The prominent politician here who said lately that you
had greater financial interests in the Argentine than in Canada af-
fordetl another illustration of the precept that where the treasure
is there will the heart be also. He also suggested the imperative
necessity of putting our treasure within the Empire if we are to re-
tain the patriotism of those who are governed by such a strange Im-
perial doctrine.
Allusion has also been made to the present state of the Austral-
ian export trade. I have obtained since my arrival, through ^'r.
Coghlan, Agent-General, and fomiTly Go/i-inmen* Statist >{ New
South Wales, a summary of the principal products which
Great Britain imports from abroad, and in which Australia
is interested. It has already been pointed out that the
volume of such imports is 21.3 millions sterling out of a
total import of 641 millions, 24 millions' worth of
wool not being included. If the Commonwealth could secure.
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
255
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
as with her immense natural resources, she ought to secure, any Eighth Day.
considerable portion of the trade of Great Britain now in foreign 30tb April,
hands, her position would most certainly be assured. What, however,
is her actual position? Excluding wool, Australia supplies consid-
erably less than 3 per cent, of the goods imported into England,
while the share of the foreign countries amounts to 80 per cent.;
and even if wool be included, Great Britain's imports from Australia
do not exceed 4i per cent, of the totaL Is there any point of view
from which this condition of afiairs can be deemed natural or desir-
able?
The question that is coming home to Australia is: Can the Com-
monwealth without preference in the British markets retain even
its present trade? And the answer undoubtedly is that without fresh
effort and a new policy it cannot. Foreign countries, by means of
liberal shipping bounties and concessions in railway tariffs, are
already placing their goods in competing markets at lower rates than
Australia can do under present conditions, and one country at least,
Denmark, Australia's most formidable competitor in the supply of
buter, has a concession of low freights for its produce on certain
British railways. This concession, with others of an equally import-
ant character, enables the Danish farmers to compete successfuly
with the products of British origin. It is apprehended that even
our present small outlet in Greu', Britain will be effectually threat-
ened, so that if we are to retain our present markets, it is most essen-
tial that we shotld get at least as favourable concessions as foreign
countries obtain. If we are to expand our markets, and to place
ourselves btjond the reach of foreign aggression, preferential treat-
ment must be obtained. Preferential trade would enable Australia
to secure a large portion of the British trade, many lines of which
are largely or exclusively in foreign hands, with the result that there
would be a more rapid development of the territory of the Common-
wealth, an increase in its population and wealth, and a large increase
in its home market for manufactures, to the manifest advantage of
those engaged in various form of productive industry. Upon the
enormous gain to the Empire as a whole from the settlement, popul-
ation, and development of its immense territories, it is unnecessary
to dwell. There are no such opportunities elsewhere, and there is
urgent need of their immediate utilisation. We are and shall con-
tinue to be your best customers.
Taking some of the items in which Australia is interested, the
opportunities for expansion will be clearly seen. There is imported
into Great Britain annually butter to the extent of 207,000 tons. Of
this large quantity, 155.000 tons comes from foreign countries and
52,000 tons from British possessions, Australia's portion being but
24,000 tons. Under a preferential duty it is most probable that the
British possessions could secure half the trade now in foreign hands.
If Australia obtains only one quarter of that new trade she would
be able to add to her exports 19,000 tons of butter valued at 2 millions
sterling, which would mean the direct employment of 41,000 i)ersons.
The import of cheese into Great Britain, which is almost entirely in
the hands of Canada, amounts to 6,350. 000/, to which Australia con-
tributes to the extent of 1,000?! only. Here again is an opening for
trade which preferential treatment would greatly widen.
The imports of wheat and flour into the United Kingdom amount
to 41J millions sterling annually, and of this quantity Australia
256
COLOXIAL COXFEllEXCE, 1007
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth Day. seuds only 4,300,000Z. Given a certain market, such as would be open
3"*'^ ■^P'"'!' to us if Great Britain granted a slight preference on wheat, we
L might easily expand our imports to four-fold their present average.
Preferential and send away 70,000,000 bushels every year. Of other
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
grams,
principally oats, barley, and maize, the imports of the United King-
dom are valued at 29 millions sterUng, to which Australia contributes
an insignificant 9,000Z. There is no reason why we should not export
maize, which grows well in New South Wales and Queensland, as
well as oats and barley, which grow prolifically on the highlands of
all the States, and obtain some share of the 29,000,000Z. now paid to
foreign countries. If we secure only one-fiith of this trade, employ-
ment would be found for a large number of farm hands, and if our
export of wheat only reached the figure of 8.500,000L, or twice the
past year's total, and other grains 5,000,000^., as they might very
well be expected to reach under a slight preference, this would mean
the additional employment in the Commonwealth of 200,000 persons.
All of these would be purchasers of British goods, far larger purchas-
ers than foreigners are, and of the goods you most wish to sell.
Under preference we could obtain all our over-sea requirements
within the Empire.
The trade in meat and livestock offers wonderful possibilities.
England imports bacon to the value of 12,750,000?., and live animals
for food lO.OOO.OOOZ. The total trade amounts, therefore, to 48,500,-
0001. and of this Australia supplies only 1,750,000Z., or less than 4
per cent. ; while under a scheme of preference no limit could be set
to its possibilities.
Mr. ASQUITH: I think no bacon comes from Australia?
Mr. DEAKIN: Practically none.
Mr. ASQUITH: Why is that?
Mr. DEAIQN : As far as I can understand the market is already
in the possession of Canada and the Argentine.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I should say the United States of
America send a lot?
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, a great share.
Mr. ASQUITH : Canada has a very large bacon export.
Mr. DEAKIN : As regards fruit, produce to the value of lOJ
millions stnrling is imported annually into England, and of this
Australia sends only 240,000Z. Of course, I am looking at the
Australian trade all through. Many other articles could be enumer-
ated which, under a preferential arrangement, could be exported
from these States, but the articles named sufficiently illustrate the
possibilities of Australian development. The French tariff shows
h-i.v other countries foster their Colonies. In the north of Africa
the French have the Colony of Algeria, and the Protectorate of
Tunis, and it is to be expected that, sooner or later, Morocco will
conic under French dominion. With a view of developing French
interests in those countries, their grain is admitted to France duty
free, while against other countries an import of 12s. Sd. per quarter
is levied. France is, therefore, already doing for its Colonies what
England is hesitating to do. It is clear that so far as its external
markets are concerned Australia ha.s much to gain by preferential
treatment on the part of the Mother Country, nor is it obvious what
it is possible for lier to lose if she in turn gave preference to the
COLONIAL COSFEREKCE. 1907
257
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
produce of Great Britain. Canada, South Africa, and New Zealand
all give preference to British goods, and their export trade to foreign
countries has not been prejudiced thereby. The direct benefits of pre-
ferential trade have been plainly indicated, but there are indirect ad-
vantages, especially to the Mother country, which are worthy of con-
sideration, particularly from the point of view of the Colonies as a
field for British immigration. England imports from Germany and
America three times the value of goods which she exports to these
two countries, and it therefore may be taken in a general sense that
England's foreign trade creates three times the amount of productive
employment in Germany and America that it does in England itself.
The British people, therefore: — (a) Pay the foreign farmer instead
of benefitting its own people beyond the seas; (h) Pay the foreign
railways for the carriage of the goods which it imports; (c) Pay
foreign ships instead of British ships for the carrying of this mer-
chandise. These are three very important considerations, especially
the last. On the mercantile predominence of Great Britain depends
its Naval supremacy, and upon Naval supremacy depends the security
of the Empire. By their huge trade with foreign countries Great
Britain and its possessions are helping to build up large foreign
merchant navies which may be used hereafter to undermine the
strength of the Empire, for it should never be forgotten that all
Foreign Powers subsidise their mercantile marine with the view of
relying upon it as a Naval Reserve in war time.
Sir WILFRID LATJRIER: I am afraid we must adjourn now,
as we have an engagement at one o'clock.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, I had hoped to finish this morning. I shall
not take much longer.
CHAIRMAN : We will re»ume this to-morrow.
Adjourned to to-morrow at 10.30 o'clock.
Eighth Day.
30th April,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
58—17
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 19^7
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. XI NTH DAY.
1st May,
1907.
Held at the Coloxul Office, Dowmxg Street,
Wednesday, 1st May, 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EARL OF ELGEST. K. G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Hononrable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur. Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyxe, K.C.M.G.. Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General the Honourable Loris Botha. Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under Secretary
of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.if.G., Permanent TTnder Sec-
retary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.T.K., on behalf of the India
OflBce.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G.,
Joint Secretaries.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretarji.
Also present:
The Right Honourable H. H. Asquith, M.P., Chancellor of the
Exchequer.
Th(> Right Honourable D. Lloyd Gkoroe. M.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
Mr. W. Runciman, ;M.P., Financial Secretary to the Treasury,
ill'. II. E. Kearley, M.P.. Parliamentary Secretary to the Board
of Trade.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 269
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir E. W. ilAMiLTO.N, (i.C.B., K.C.V.O., Permanent Financial Ninth Day.
Secretary to the Treasury. 1907 '
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith. C.B.. Permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fox, C.B., Counitrollor-General of the Commer-
cial, Statistical, and Labour Deiiartments of the Eonrd of
Trade.
Mr. G. J. Stanley, C.M.O., of the Board of Trade.
PREFERENTIAL TRADE.
CHAIRMAN: Mr. Deakin, will you resume? Preferential
Trade
Mr. DEAKIN : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, 1 should like to say
in the first place that the precis which appears in the newspapers this
morning was very kindly submitted to me .yesterday afternoon, and
I am responsible for it. It appears, however, that some attention
has been called to the figures quoted, probably an error due to a mis-
print. I have also to say that not reading the whole of the manu-
script, there is one sentence in it which I should certainly have
altered, because I did not use the phrase, and would have carefully
avoided using it. It is tliat in which I refer to a power of this
Empire to bring foreign countries to their knees. I certainly laid
great stress on the power of this country, but avoided, as far as my
memory serves me — and I certainly intend to avoid — any expression
of that kind, which, although it might be a summary of my argu-
ment, is conveyed in a form that I prefer not to adopt. But. as I
have said, the responsibility is mine; the precis was presented to me
and that 1 did not read every sentence of it was my own fault.
Yesterday I was endeavouring to bring to a conclusion my critic-
ism of preferential proposals or possible preferential proposals hav-
ing regard to the circumstances of Australia. I necessarily dealt
in figui-es, but with the proportions of totals, rather than with the
totals themselves. In the Commonwealth, though the increase of
population has been much smaller than we could have desired, the
extension of settlement and advances in production have proceeded
b.v leaps and bounds. In recent years, owing largely to improved
methods of cultivation and machinery better adapted to our agricul-
tural conditions we have had immense increases in our exports.
These, of course, have affected every branch of our business — im-
ports as well as exports. Ton have to look at the figures relating
to Australia always with the recollection that you are considering a
community that, taking any period of years together, is marching on-
ward with ver.v rapid strides, always buying much more and selling
much more as it grows. If you look, therefore, at our gross totals,
.you will say that these appear satisfactor.v and, subject to the quali-
fications which follow after any analysis of totals of that general
kind, are satisfactory. If you look, therefore, at the totals of otir
trade witli either the ifother Country or with foreign countries, you
will notice large increases, though I have passed these by — and
perhaps it was an omission — without calling attention to them.
All our figures up to now must be dealt with recollecting that they
relate to an ascending scale. It would occupy far more time than I
would be justified in occupying, even after attention had been called
to them, in order to dissect those figures so as to determine their
particular applicability to special issues. It seems sufficient, and T
linpo it will prove to have been sufficient, to a<lopt the percentage
58— 17^
260 COLOMAL COyFEBEXCE, 190~
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. method instead. Hardly referring to total trade, I have referred
^^"isOT^^' ^^^^ys t° i^s ratio, its progress, its distribution. Again, in consider-
'- ing the question of the possible gains to be derived from doing more
Pr^erential business between the Mother Country and the Colonies, I have
.„ ■ followed the percentages system as one from my point of view more
Deakin.) accurately representing the trend of the distribution of that business
between the Mother Country and foreign nations. There has been
an increase in the gross total of both, but it is only comparing them
thus that we arrive at the view which I was endeavouring to reach.
My argument, as far as I remember it, when our proceedings
yesterday closed, related to the possible effect of preferential trade
not only upon ourselves, but upon those with whom we do business.
If a fair proportion of the 565 millions sterling.which is Britain's
vast outlay for imported goods, came to British Colonies, it would
tend greatly to increase their wealth and strengthen the British and
Colonial navies, and the Empire as a whole. British manufacturers
are the greatest consumers of Australian raw produce, and their
prosperity means the promotion and development of the Common-
wealth, while the success of the foreign manufacturer does not
necessarily benefit the Australian producer. In the consideration of
this question it should be borne in mind that foreign countries would,
if it were possible for them to do so, follow America's example, and
shut out from their markets the raw material which we now send
them, while by heavy subsidies and other means, they are already
otistiug British products from our markets. The intensity of the
contest for markets on fair terms between nations to-day is but one
phase of a contest for influence and authority, for prestige and effec-
tive power, which proceeds day by day and year by year with in-
creasing energy. It is a wrestle between rivals for supremacy — a
supremacy accompanying the expansion of the successful Power —
an expansion which means a corresponding contraction of its com-
petitors, means of resistance, the depression and deprivation of
their trade, and perhaps ultimately their absorption or extinction.
There is, of course no complete analogy between the proposals
for preferential trade within the Empire and the trade arrangements
and conditions of other countries, but then, again, no empire ever
existed which really resembles that of Great Britain in its present
stages of development. There is, perhaps, some slight analogy in
the German Zollverein. This ZoUverein was established because the
producers of the different German States found that they were suffer-
ing from the policy of isolation which each of them then followed.
They had erected tariff barriers between their purchasers which pre-
vented them from becoming one people — a nation with a national
policy and inseparable destiny. A customs union throughout the
Empire was, therefore, brought into existence, and the foundation
was thus laid for the present German developments, industrial,
social, and Imperial. It is true that the German States all lio
together, but this does not in any way impair the principle of Prefer-
ence or effect of its operation except so far as distances amend it,
and these, nowadays, are practically diminishing every decade. As
Lord Salisbury pointed out in 188Y, the mere separation by sea is
no permanent obstacle to commercial unity.* It must never be for-
gotten that under existing conditions, and while they last, the pur-
(C. 5091) p. 5.
COLONIAL COSFEREXCE, 1907
261
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakia.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
chasing power of the British Empire is immense, and the possession Ninth Day.
of this purchasing power — to which I venture to make one more ^^*i,^*^'
illusion — is the potent instrument by which we believe justice can '_
be secured to British goods and the goods of British Colonies; that Pr^erential
is to say, if the whole of the British Empire were to combine. The
want of unity of the different parts of the Empire enables foreign
countries to adopt various courses inimical to British interests,
individual and collective, that is to say, looking at its dominions
individually, or taking them as a whole. If retaliation were in prospect
against foreign nations which now refuse to buy our goods on equal
terms with those of other nations, the discriminations would gladly
treat with the British Empire for the sake of gaining or retaining
some part of its immense trade. I do not go anything like so far as
to say that they would be brought to their knees, but I do go so far as
to say that some of the illustrations which were yesterday put for-
ward of the manner in which our exports are differentiated against
in certain markets could not continue. So long as we are content
to ignore those differences and not insist upon at least equal treatment
for our products, we shall fail to obtain the consideration which much
smaller nations with a purchasing power in no way comparable to
ours actually have obtained and are obtaining to-day by means of
relatively inconsiderable concessions. One instance I think has oc-
curred which will be more familiar to Mr. Asquith and his colleagues
than it is to me, in which there was a proposal on the part of France,
or a proposal likely to be adopted in France, which would have in-
directly affected Indian trade. I think it affected coffee or some simi-
lar exports, when a strong remonstrance from the Indian Government,
backed up by an indication of possible action on its part brought
about an agreement in which, in return for a concession relatively
quite of a' minor character, this dangerous and threatening proposal
was withdrawn. That occurs to me — I think something "like that
happened — as one illustration of a method of dealing with tariff
discriminations, not as if there were no other contingency save ac-
ceptance, but in an ordinary business fashion, on familiar business
grounds, without stepping outside the field of fair commerce. We
are able to do that in many cases. Certainly if I sought for illus-
trations I could find them plentifully in the experience of other na-
tions where concessions on one side have been balanced by concessions
on the other. That is well knowTi.
The power possessed by the British Empire over foreign nations
by its possession of a great market — a market to be opened or closed
to some extent or any extent — is little realised, but the most casual
observer must recognize the strength of the Empire's position, which
is certainly enormous, should all its component parts, combining to-
gether, use their power to meet the fiscal attacks of foreign nations
upon any portion of the Empire, It is a case of all for each and
each for all. This has been illustrated to some degree by the re-
tirement of Germany from its position of antagonism towards Cana-
da, which was assumed when Canada granted preference to the British
manufacturer. So far as I understand this event, the retreat of
Germany took place when it was obvious that behind Canada (to
some extent, at all events,) was the world-wide force of the British
Empire, Bargaining between Germany and Canada appears to be
now in contemplation, and whatever may be the result, it is perfect-
ly certain that far better terms will be obtained by a Dominion or by
an Empire which has shown its power to resist and its determination
262 COLOyiAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. to meet discrimination by discrimination. The treatment intended
^ IMt"*^' ■^°'" C'^nsda would be meted out to Australia, if the Commonwealth
were to stand alone; its trade and wealth would be ineffective t-o
Pr^ereutial break down the barriers which foreign countries might choose to erect
(Mr. against its trade; combined with the Empire its position like that of
Deakin.) every other portion might be made impregnable.
The moral right of any country to exercise retaliation cannot
now be denied, and nearly every country in the world exercises it
at the present time. Eussia quite recently retaUated against Britain
for its tax on bounty sugar by placing on Indian tea an extra duty,
which duty remains in force because the Empire has not resisted
it. Germany has retaliated against the United States, the United
States against Germany, until an arrangement between them appears
imminent. An arrangement which, whatever its nature may be, will
have been undertaken as between equal contracting parties. The
contracting parties are not equal while one of them on some theory of
its own accord holds its hands behind its back. All foreign countries
adopt the principle of the most favoured nation treatment to those
who are willing to offer them concessions, heavier duties being im-
posed where concessions are not forthcoming. What I wish to sug-
gest by this line of argument is not the adoption of an aggressive
commercial policy any more than in other foreign affairs, but merely
an indication of a freedom and a willingness to use the powers
which each nation possesses in regard to its trade and commerce
and the terms on which it admits the goods of other countries. We
should not allow these to lie aside like rusty unused weapons, but to
hand and be ready for use on occasion, employing them as they have
been employed by Germany and the United States and other peoples,
in order to secure fair business — no more than fair business. I am
not for a moment advocating that because the Empire has' a giant's
strength it should use it tyrannously like a giant in relation to small
foreign communities, or large ones, but merely that its possession of
power should carry with it a responsibility for its exercise at need.
We should be quite prepared to take whatever steps may be required
to free us from obviously unfair competition in other markets, and
to secure our people fair competition all round.
If the nature of the whole of the commerce of the Empire be
examined, as Sir Edward Law examined that of India, it will be seen
that Great Britain lias very little to fear from retaliation. Germany
may be taken as one example. Last year 61,000.000^ of German ex-
ports went to British possessions. Could Germany retaliate against
Great Britain for any preferential treatment which it may give to
British Colonies, and thus put itself in danger of losing its present
business, while 23 per cent, of the whole German export trade is
carried on with different parts of the Britisli Empire? The United
States of America may be cited as another example. Every year
the States seud Great Britain and its possessions goods to the value
of 175,000,000/., while the import of British goods into the United
States does not amount to within 100,000,000/. of this sum. It is
most unlikely that the TTnited States woiild risk losing so vast a
volume of trade amounting as it does to considerably more than half
of its own export, in an attenipl to penalise Great Britain for exer-
cising tlie same policy of preference which the Ignited States hold
themselves free to mloiif in regard to tlieir own possessions, and even
fo otlier States with which tlicy nuikc reciprocal treaties.
Wlint may be fairly eontnidcd I'm- in the present stage of the
COLOyiAL COXFERENCE. 1907 268
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
discussiou in regard to preferential trade and fiscal retaliation, is the Ninth Day.
recognition that the principle which these phrases embody, whatever ^^^JJ-"'^'
extension may be given to it, is a proper one to apply in the existing 1
condition of the commercial relations of the foreign countries with I'refeieutial
Great Britain and its possessions. It is not as yet necessary to -irade.
propound a definite schedule, which must in details be largely a Deakiii )
matter of mutual arrangement, differing almost with every country
dealt with, and with the same countries at different times, but it may
be glanced at to meet the objection, frequently heard, that however
right the principle of preferential trade may be in theory, in practice
it could not be applied to the Australian States. It is perfectly true
that, as the second resolution of the Conference of 1902 indicated,
it is not possible for the Commonwealth to abolish its customs duties,
or reduce them in the aggregate in any considerable measure. What
is possible is discrimination and readjustment in both countries by
reciprocal concessions. It is and will remain necessary that at least
the present amount of revenue should be obtained in Australia, but
this allows ample room within which preference may be given to
British imports. In the first place, out of our total import in 1905
of 36,796,346Z. (excluding specie), 12,621,766Z. or 34 per cent., were
free goods. That is notable in itself. In addition to this imports to
the value of 11,000,000?. odd were dutiable at 15 percent, and under so
that two thirds of our total imports were in these categories. 15 per
cent, with us ranks as a very moderate duty, indeed, in most cases.
Of course, rates of duty, as the Chaucellur of the Exchequer and all
authorities know, vary immensely. 15 jier cent, might be extremely
heavy on one article, but very light on another, but on many of those
articles to which our 15 per cent, applied, speaking generally with the
United States and foreign tariffs in mind it may be regarded as
relatively a light duty. Our rates of duty, including stimulants and
narcotics, to-day only average 16 -8 on dutiable merchandise, and 10 '8
on all merchandise, whether free or dutiable, taken together. Here
are wide margins for concessions.
Now, as regards the modes of preference to British goods, it is
obvious that the Commonwealth may proceed either to lower existing
duties in favour of Great Britain, or to increase these duties to the
foreigner. This latter coiirse has been followed in Canada, New Zea-
land, and South Africa, and probably in no perceptible degree in-
fluences the amount of duties collected. The immediate object of
preference in our case would be to exclude foreign goods and to favour
British goods. On a more general view, and subject to this, its ob-
ject is to obtain fair terms abroad where fair terms are granted by
us. It is natural, then, that the extent of the preference should be
such as to be calculated to accomplish the first of these objects, that
is, the cessation of importation of foreign goods, and an increase of
present duties would seem to be the best means to achieve this
end.
But the increase of existing duties is not the only weapon avail-
able. It is also open to the Commonwealth to use its present free list
as a means of preference towards the Mother Country. A free list
which runs to nearly 34 per cent, of our total imports, affords a wide
field for preference, far more extensive than is found in the foreign
countries with which we trade. More than half the imports that come
in free are from foreign countries. If the Commonwealth were to
make British goods alone entitled to a free list, making foreign goods
now in this class dutiable for the future at the rate of 10 per cent..
264
COLOyiAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. there would hardly be any question but that Great Britain would
IM?^'^' ^^ * ^^^ short time acquire almost the whole of the trade in the
goods which she produces that are now wholly free in Australia, de-
Pr^erential rived from foreign countries. An increase of local production must,
of coujse, be allowed for where our circumstances are favourable,
though the nature of our industries in their relation to the general
circumstances of our new and sparsely peopled country modifies the
inducements oSered in many cases. An inspection of the list of
goods not subject to duty in Australia will show that very few of the
articles enumerated therein are neither produced nor produceable in
Great Britain. The adoption, therefore, of this course would prob-
ably be attended by an immediate diversion of trade from foreign
goods to British goods, and having regard to the fact that one-third
of our tariff, or one-third rather of our imports would be operated up-
on at once, or such part of that third as Great Britain is capable of
producing, this is in itself a very considerable opportunity.
Taking into account also the other section of our tariff, in which
the duties are under 25 per cent., it is easy to see that we have by
no means as yet put to practical use the opportunities for retalia-
tion which we possess in this direction, for reasons to which I will
allude in one moment. The adoption of a similar policy on the part
of the Mother Country towards the Commonwealth would certainly
bring with it a considerable addition to our trade. I am assured by
an authority that a substantial preference to the goods of Great
Britain in our markets would result in an increase of British trade
with Australia to the extent of, perhaps, 50 per cent. This would
be the effect of substantial preferences and substantial preferences
are contemplated by the third Resolution of the Conference of 1902.
■' That with a view to promoting an increase of trade within the
" Empire it is desirable that the Colonies should as far as cireum-
" stances permit give substantial preferential treatment to the pro-
" ducts and manufactures of the Mother Country."
The fourth Resolution arrived at in 1902 : " That it is desirable
" that the preferential treatment accorded by the Colonies to the
" products and manufactures of the United Kingdom be also granted
" to the products and manufactures of other self-governing Colonies,"
has already been given effect to in a certain measure; and proposals
are now in course of consideration, or are likely to be soon in course
of consideration, which would still further extend this ver.v desirable
means of interlocking the several self-governing dominions of the
Empire. I shall not repeat it, but of course, the whole tenour of the
argiiment I have been endeavouring to maintain applies with equal
force to arrangements of this character. Owing to the similarity of
our circumstanaces none of these could have the scope or the value of
an arrangement made between an.v or all of them and the Mother
Country if such were possible. Biit, nevertheless, small as these
imperial reciprocities may be, they are useful. It is perhaps not alto-
gether beyond the horizon of the immediate future to forecast a time
when, from year to year, or at short periods, some body or committee
of experts will review the trade of the Empire as a whole in order to
see if fresh opportunities could not be found for directing popula-
tion and trade, not only from the ifothor Country to the depend-
encies, but between those dominions tlieniselvos, in order to knit us
together each and all. At all events, that would be a perfectly
proper and wise business transaction. Broadly stated, such a prospect
may appear to arouse expectations difficult to realise, but so fnr as
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 265
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
I am acijuainted with the history of our Parliaments of the British Ninth Day.
Empire, they have existed, and continue to exist, by overcoming, * 1907 ^'
difficulties. A reversal of a forward policy, by way of surrender to
diiBculties of this or any other kind would be fatal. I am sure it is Tr^erential
. . . Xracl©
not contemplated by either of the parties in argument on this subject. z^,
WJtiat we would urge in this connection is our obligation at all times Denkin.;
to consistently pursue a close examination of the opportunities for
inter-Imperial trade. Even if they cannot be found, or cannot be
found in such abundance as we would desire, the time which is spent
in seeking for them would be far from wasted, and would be greatly
appreciated by those whom it was desired to help. I cannot see that
any people held together by the many ties which have constituted us
the nation we are to-day can lose. It appears to us that there are
many directions in which it could gain by a recognition of the high
v&lue of the growth of a sense of corporate unity, the growth of a
sense of mutual dependence between British peoples, coupled with
a recognition of the difference, and sometimes of a great difference,
between the demands which may be made upon each of our domin-
ions and the Mother Country between themselves, and those made
upon us by foreign countries. There are communities whose strength
may at times appear to be intended to become a menace to the whole
or parts of this Empire, and surely it cannot be maintained that a
trade with them which is one half to their advantage, to which they
are parties, and of which they therefore share the advantage, is
comparable from a national point of view to the trade with those
of your own flesh and blood, under your own flag, with whom it is
your interest in the face of such rivals to strengthen yourself by
every possible means in your power.
Repeating for the last time that the Commonwealth postulates
your absolute independence in the judgment you are to exercise, and
adding that we are not pleading for something which is to involve
sacrifices, but for a co-operation which is to be mutually beneficial
— repeating that for the last time — surely the endeavour to lopk
at this question from what I have termed a corporate
point of view, and the endeavour to secure corporate action,
can be productive of nothing but good. This would be the best pos-
sible means of bringing about a better understanding between us all,
of removing uneasy apprehensions that we are neglecting valuable
means of union, and of assuring us that if we do fail to find and use
a path we can tread together it has not been for want of research or
from want of consideration, or from want of the wish and will to
take every step in our power making for the cohesion of the peoples
now linked together, by what we hope are imperishable ties to which
we would be glad to add, so long as it shall be in our power.
What may be termed the British view of British possibilities
or of the condition and cost of any reciprocity, is not for me to dis-
cuss or even speculate upon. What I have attempted in brief has
been the presentation of the Australian case from an Australian
point of view, so far as it appears desirable to urge it upon this Con-
ference. The policy is large, and the principle of that policy applies
not only to trade and commerce, but is capable, as already suggested
of indefinite expansion. It might be discussed from many other
standpoints, but I have been able, under the circumstances of
I)ersonal pressure under which we are all conducting these discus-
sions, to touch only those which appear to me pertinent here and
266
COLOyiAL COyFEREyCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. now. The resolutions which have been submitted by the Conunon-
^^*19OT^^' ^eilth embody in very slightly difierent form those adopted in 1902,
making them, as we consider, a little more explicit and comprehen-
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
Preferential sive, but in no way departing from the principle then adopted.
It now remains for me, in response to a suggestion of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer yesterday, to say a word or two in regard to
the particular measure of preference which is included in this paper
Colonial Preferential Tarifis.* Xo such scheme of preference as I
have been foreshadowing or discussing has as yet been formulated
in Australia. The earlier years of our Federation — we are now in
our seventh year of existence as one Commonwealth — have been filled
with discussions of great difficulty and of absorbing interest, accom-
panied by not a few exciting changes and tmexpected incidents of a
Parliamentary character. Public opinion in our country still retains
certain divisions, natural or artificial, which have to be surmounted
before our eilorts can be focussed in a national direction, but when
you take into account the vast distances which separate us, it is no
ground for surprise that in the seventh year of our existence as one
community we have not even yet entirely surmounted these Pro-
vincial divergencies which have existed, often in a very acute form,
for the last thirty or forty years. The evidence of the last two
general elections of the Commonwealth proves that we are moving
steadily towards such a preference or such preferences as I have
referred to, but we have not yet propounded a complete scheme of any
of these on either basis; that is to say. neither as a one-sided prefer-
ence tendered by ourselves, nor still less of the possibilities of a pre-
ference balanced by concessions from you. Our hope of an early
reciprocity from the Mother Country has never been strong enough
to encourage such a thorough study of possible tariS changes as
would be necessary in drawing up proposals for a complete scheme.
We have not even framed a finished plan for any preference, except
in regard to New Zealand and South Africa. We made a beginning
with these under very special circumstances.
Last year a Reciprocity Treaty was drawn up by the late Mr.
Seddon, my colleagtie, Sir William Lyne, our Minister of Trade and
Commerce, and myself, which required, among other alterations, in-
creases of duties upon certain classes of imports from this country.
To balance these increases as well as was possible at that time in our
Session, we accompanied this proposal in respect to New Zealand
with an instalment of preferential trade to you. It was explained
at the time by me. when introducing it. to be an instalment only.
It was not to be confounded with proposals for preferential trade
even of an unilateral character which it was part of our policy to
submit. The present Bill included merely that portion of our pre-
ference scheme whicli was pertinent at that time, which we could
fairly ask Parliament to accept, although it was approaching not
only the close of its Session under a great burden of work, but also
approaching flio close of the Parliament, and preluding an inimodi-
nte appeal to flic people. Neither the time of the Session nor the
oirciimstances in which our Parliament then stood wo\ild have
permitted us to launch a complete preferential scheme, even un-
ilateral. As it was, this minor subsidiary proposal attached to the
New Zealand Treaty wns onlv put through in the last hours of the
Session, and we were oliliged under those circumstances to accept it.
• See No. XXI. [Cd. 3524] : Papers laid before the Conference.
COLONIAL COM'EREXCE, 1907 267
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
We were not only obliged to retain our own proposals in regard to Ninth Day.
British ships which we had proposed to remove from the Bill, when '^'i^*'^'
the Imperial Government unexpectedly pointed out to us that they ^
involved a breach of treaty relations — we had to allow those to I'reierential
remain in spite of ourselves after that adni'inition, because one of .„
our Chambers refused our request to withdraw that [lortion of the Deakin.)
measure — but there was also another condition made in connection
with white labour, whicli appeared to us and apjjears to us to be
anomalous and out of place.
Mr. ASQUITH: That governs the wh-.l,., does it not?
Mr. DEAKIN: In what sense?
Mr. ASQUITII: The proposal only applies in so far as it is
preferential to British poods, to British goods which are imported
in British ships manned by white labour. That governs the whole?
Mr. UEAKIX : Yt's. The jn-oposal as to British ships was in-
serted in good faith without any suspicion that any treaties by
which we were boinid — and I am reserving that subject for further
special consideration — would prevent its adoption. We would not
have asked to withdraw our own proposal unless we had been moved
thereto by a communication from the Imjjerial Government. Then,
in regard to the condition as to white labour which was inserted, I
think by a single vote, I pointed out at the time the impracticability
of applying that restriction to this very limited proposal for pre-
ference; that it would be almost impossible to administer it, and
asked the House to remove it.; but in the last days and last hours of
the Session, in circumstances with which all members are familiar,
it became a question of taking the Bill as it stood — and even to get
it to that stage had involved some fierce political fighting — or to
abandon it altogether. We chose to retain the Bill. But it has
to be remembered that the addition as to the white labour is not
ours, that the requirement as to British shipping was introduced in
good faith, and was an intentional limitation, it is true, but one
which we adopted and approved, and still approve, because it appears
to us another form of preference affecting British trade and fostering
British shipping.
Sir WTLFRID LAURIER: What do yon mean by saying that
this addition of the white laTiour was not " ours. " ?
Mr. DEAKIN: Was not that of the Government.
Mr. ASQITTTH : It was that of the Legislature.
Mr. DEAKIX: It was that of the Legislature, but not of the
Government, and it was that of the Legislature in the last days of the
Session when time did not permit of its full consideration. In fact.
the circumstances under which it passed, as I have said, not only at
the close of the Session, but at the close of the Parliament, united to
make it impossible for us to prolong our sittings with a view to its
reversal, because, owing- to the great distances that separate us. mem-
bers were already leaving for their constituencies some 1,500 or
2,000 miles away. The House was therefore, in view of the General
Elections, so to speak, disappearing by degrees, and there was not the
possibility that would ordinarily have existed of obtaining the neces-
sary time to reconsider it. The Government had no choice, as I have
said, except either to lose the Bill or take it in its present form; we
took the Bill under those special circumstances, but that measure
268 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. will be entirely misunderstood if it be siipposed that it expresses
]9OT^^ either the intention of the Government, or even, I will venture to
— — '- say, the deliberate will of Parliament. Another reason why there
P^'^fer^itial was the less objection to the unusual course which we followed is
' that the new Parliament, which has since been returned and whose
Deakin.) sittings have been a little postponed in consequence of this Confer-
ence, directly it meets will consider the revision of the whole of our
customs tarifF. In that revision of our customs tariff an excellent
opportunity for reconsidering our position will occur, not only in
regard to that Bill, but our position generally towards preferential
trade from the Australian point of view. As soon as my colleague and
I return, it will be our duty to lay before Parliament the proposals
of the Ministry for an Australian tariff. One of the chief advantages
of our presence here, and cause of our interest in this discussion, is
because we could give almost immediate effect to any alteration that
may be desired in our fiscal system. In Australia we are never very
long without fiscal amendments of some character, but this is a
major alteration implying a re-examination of the whole of our cus-
toms schedule. We shall have an opportunity, siich as but rarely
occurs, of reconsidering these questions and of dealing with them
afresh. This is not the place, of course, to outline our Ministerial
policy, except to say that it involves a reconsideration of this Bill.
It was because it appeared to us best, both in order to bring the ques-
tion vividly before the minds of the electors who were then about to
be appealed to, and because it was the fairest indication of our own
views of the matter, to accept that measure as it stood rather than
consent to see it go with the " slaughtered innocents," that it was
allowed to pass in its present form. It stands therefore as an adum-
bration or indication of what we are aiming at. It was never more
than an instalment. It was never our proposal for preferential trade
with Great Britain. It was simply one of those practical means of
taking what you can get when you cannot get all you want, which
have to be adopted continually in constitutionally governed countries.
We thought it fair, we thought it necessary, when bringing forward
the New Zealand Treaty, to give this slice of the preferential pro-
posals affecting Great Britain, which we would have submitted com-
pletely if time had permitted, and quite independently of that Treaty.
As it was they had to be dealt with together. The House had before
it the changes for the benefit of New Zealand, proposed to be made
in our customs tariff, coupled with certain changes which we believed
would balance those changes, and more than balance them for your
benefit. The one cause and conditioned the other.
It is hardly necessary to remind the Conference that preferences
may be of all kinds, degrees, and extents. They vary and will vary
from time to time between the same parties, and even more greatly
between them and other parties. The customs tariff which we shall
submit will be framed on the same principle I have been enunciating
here. Our first consideration will be that of the circumstances of
Australia and its demands. The next will be the possibility of giving
a preference and therefore entering into closer commercial relations
with the Mother Country and our Sister Dominions. The third will
be how far and in what degree it shall apply to foreign countries
who single us out for special disabilities.
The larger trade exchange with the Mother Country towards which
we look, ample in its proportions and immense in its possibilities,
will be constantly before us, but the extent to which we can approach
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907 269
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
a complete mutual exchange will, of course, be governed by the atti- Kinth Day.
tude which is adopted here towards our proposals. I think I can ^^^gfli**^'
fairly say that any encouragement we may receive will be met, not
in a spirit of barter but with a desire to prove our appreciation of it Pr^erential
and of our family relations. ,,,
(Mr.
Mt. ASQUITH : The arrangement with New Zealand did not Deakin.) .
go through?
"Mr. DEAKIN : It did not.
Mr. ASQUITH : What caused it not to go through ?
Mr. DEAKIN : Because it was laid aside in the New Zealand
Parliament.
Mr. ASQUITH : They would not have it ?
Mr. DEAKIN : No. You will remember the circumstances which
in part account for that. The treaty was made by Mr. Seddon during
the absence of the present Prime Minister of New Zealand in the
Mother Country. Mr. Seddon's death unfortunately followed a few
days after the final signing of that treaty. Consequently when Sir
Joseph Ward returned and reformed his administration, he reformed
his policy, for reasons of which he is the best judge and of which
we 'do not complain, deciding that in the interests of New Zealand
the treaty should not be given effect to.
Mr. ASQUITH : And the Legislature took his view ?
Mr. DEAKIN : The Legislature took his view, and that treaty
was not adopted. But the probabilities of some substituted arrange-
ments are, I may say, present to my friend. Sir Joseph Ward, as
they are to myself, and are among the measures now in contempla-
tion. I may also say that, vexatious as the loss of that treaty was,
and vexatious, if not more vexatious, as was the clipped condition
in which our Bill passed — whether it be owing to out youthfulness
or our inexperience — we take these reverses without great discour-
agement. We believe that a current of public opinion is setting in
the direction of reciprocity, and that as we proceed it will take the
same course more strongly. I am confident that it will be quite pos-
sible to make another treaty with New Zealand, which, however modest
its proportions may be, if they are not quite on the scale that Mr.
Seddon and myself hoped, wiU yet be advantageous. I am equally
confident that we shall be able to put the Bill now in suspense in
such a shape that it will prove acceptable to our Parliament and
people. We meet these reverses and disappointments if not more
frequently than larger Parliaments, bearing them more lightly. We
face them more cheerfully, because our methods of politics permit
ns to face the same questions again in a comparatively short time.
If we do not succeed this year we will next. A project in our coun-
try is rarely crowded out. Our hands are freer. I merely mention
this as a reason why we do not regard this situation as seriously as
such circumstances in this country would be regarded. A lost oppor-
tunity here does not perhaps recur again for years, but with us it
may recur in a few months, or it is a rather unusual delay if it does
not liappen the next year.
The papers before you show we have accomplished with South
Africa what we hope to accomplish with New Zealand and Canada,
and then we shall so far have completed our chain of relations.
270
COLOMAL COyFEREXCE, 1901/
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. Generally, may I say that whatever is possible in the way of prefer-
^ 1907^^' ^^^^ within the Empire we hope to achieve.
For the last time, I repeat our realisation that preference begins
'^'^Trade*^^' as a business operation to be conducted for business ends. That is
the preliminary of it all. We firmly believe that the very best possi-
ble business open to us is that which builds up this Empire and main-
tains its independence, securing its political and social heritages of
freedom and culture, and enlarging its beneficial influence. To us it
seems certain that these great ends can only be accomplished by joint
action and effective action, which shall embrace the centre and all its
parts. We live in the hope that we shall be economically, industrially,
and productively raised to the highest power of which each portion,
and therefore of the Empire as a whole, is capable. We wish to see
British people of British stock as far as possible kept to our own vast
territories, living under civilised conditions enabling them to multiply
prosper, and advance. Such conditions, we believe, can be found to
the same degree nowhere else in the world. We hope that our prefer-
ences will afFect population as well as trade, and that in the diffusion
of population the outer parts of the Empire will get the full advantage
of it, so far as it can be controlled without impairing individual
freedom. Preferential trade appeals to us as a potent influence to
aid this growth.
I have already said that we do not limit this principle to trade,
but also apply it to the channels of trade. Whatever treaties may
now hamper our movements, and we are encouraged by the recent
Navigation Conference to hope that tmder your colleagtie, and with
his help, we shall see encouragement given to British shipping as
compared with foreign shipping until all its troubles that we can
remove are removed, placing it, if possible, in a more unassailable
position than it occupies to-day. That with us is associated with
preferential trade as an integral part of the policy. While we main-
tain our shipping we have one of the very strongest, if not the strong-
est, means of maintaining our over-sea trade. In the same way. with
regard to cable communications, to which I have already alluded,
and with regard to many other matters vipon which it would bo in-
appropriate to touch, they are of a diffeernt character but with the
same aim. When we speak of preferences in trade, our interest and
enthusiasm are not devoted only to trade as the most important of
its practical agencies. We include every means of co-operation within
the Empire — shipping, cables, Stiez canal charges, freights, emigra-
tion, conferences making for national unity and power. Every kind
of co-operation is good as far as it is genuine without soreness or
unrequited sacrifice on either side, and establishing the permanence
of our trade and other relations. We think that each of those means
would help the other, and that united they would form a very power-
ful series of links uniting the extremities with the centre. All of
these are sustained by the sentiment of unity in which we begin and
end — the inexpressibly valuable inspiration, allied to the deepest
forces within >is, tipon whose propelling power this nation, this
Empire depends and must always depend. an<l which will decide its
destiny.
As I have occupied a considerable time in dealing with the
Australian view, perhaps m.v colleague, in whose special department
trade lies, might be allowed to speak at a later stage when other uirm-
COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
271
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
bers have addressed the Conference, so that Australia may not mono-
polise too much time.
CHAIRMAN: Would you prefer that, Sir William?
Sir WILLIAM LYXE: Yes, I would prefer that.
Mr. DEAKIN : I will hand in, as an illustration of my argument
as to our opportunities of preferential trade with the Mother Country,
two tables, analysing a year's imports. The first is headed " Produce
other than wool which Australia could supply," and shows that we
supply 10,000,000?., British Possessions 41,000,000/., and foreign
countries 159,000,000;., total 211,000,000/. The other shows "A
year's imports into the United Kingdom of dairy produce, grain, and
hay" produced in Australia and other British Possessions, and im-
ported into Great Britain. The total is .38,000,000?., of which only
If millions come from .Australia, and only 7,000,000Z. more from the
other British Possessions.
Ninth Day.
1st May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
y'he tables handed in are ax follows: —
A Tear's Imports into the Fmted Kingdom of Produce other
TRA^s Wool which Australia could supply.
1905.
Butter
Cheese
Flour and wheat .
Other grain
Eggs and poultry .
Flax.
Fruit
.Skins and hides.
Lard.
Leather
*Meat
f)live oil
Sugar
Milk (condensed).
Tallow
Honey
From
Australia.
£
2,307,835
4,291,027
8,585
240,506
693,274
265,786
1,635,160
145,859
768,9%
From Other
British
Possessions .
From
Foreign
Countries.
10,357,028
Wool 10,768,050
2,905,382
5,007,516
11,110,194
5,0.S1,260
173,543
16,400
1,395,604
2,569,119
630,425
2,492,349
7,222,842
1.5",4.626
1,264,026
343
458,633
17,442
16,373,405
1.332,295
25,923,555
23,790,922
7,638,483
3,213,742
8,958,470
6,774,721
3,062,148
4,985,540
29,514,113
1,300,751
'.iS, 503, 029
62.299
1,141,757
17,321
Total
Imports.
21,586,622
6,339,811
41,324,776
28,830,767
7,812,026
3,230,142
10,594,580
10.037,114
3,692,573
7,743,675
38,372.115
3.001.236
26,707.055
62.642
2,3t59,38li
34,763
41,849,704 1.59,592,551 211,799,283
9,051,196 4,002,579 i 23,821,825
■* For details, see next page.
272
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day.
1st May,
1907. ■
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
From
Australia.
From Other
British
Possessions.
From
Foreign
Countries.
Total
Imports .
Butter . .
£
2,307,836
£
2,905,382
£
16,373,405
£
21,586,623
5,007,516
1,332,295
6,339,811
4,291,027
11,110,194
25,923,555
41,324,776
Maize, oats, barley and other
grrain
8,585
5,031,260
23,790,922
28,830,767
Meat :—
2,755,149
217,738
8,414
698,471
3,164,712
14,124
16,226
82,406
220,339
44,913
10,019,706
8,683,107
199,893
2,419,901
3,183,729
1,137,409
236,380
267,498
2,203,770
1,168,720
12,774,855
8,931,593
202,307
3,118,372
7 336 490
Fresh beef
Salted beef . .
30,748
Hams
Fresh mutton.
""988,649'
10,837
Fresh pork
Salted ixjrk
1,162,370
252,606
Rabbits
485,935
223,086
12,059
835,929
Preserved meat
2,647,195
1,226,692
1,750,714
7,222,582
29,514,113
38,487,409
Living animals : —
Oxen ....
2,488,701
27,966
45,580
7,129,293
19,846
233,173
9,617,994
47,812
278,753
Sir JOSEPH WAED : Lord Elgin and Gentlemen,— I think we
have been all very much interested in the very full and very able
speech delivered by my friend Mr. Deakin. He has placed an
immense amount of matter before the Conference which I feel
sure will be read with the deepest interest by the people
of Australia whom he represents. I am equally certain that it will
be read by the people in the Colony that I have the honour
to represent. We are approaching this matter from a similar
standpoint, and we are anxious to bring about that which Mr.
Deakin has at length placed before the Conference. I feel justi-
fied in saying that in view of the important details that Mr. Deakin
has in many respects furnished, it will very appreciably save my
time in placing some other aspects of this important matter before
the Conference. I feel, however, that the historical occasion should
not be allowed to pass by without saj'ing something from the stand-
point of the important Colony that I have come here specially to
rcprwient. I would like briefly to state what the attitude of New
Zealand in connection with preferential trade is. We come here with
an honest desire to place our position before the British Government,
and the British people through the British Government, in the hope
that if thoy see proper to return the preference which we have al-
ready on some articles given we should be only too glad in that respect
to e.xtend the system and have them added to on a mutual basis. I
should like so much to say that if this comparatively new question as
between the Motherland and the Colonies could be by all parties in all
our countries taken out nf the arena of party politics, a solution
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 273
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of it would be reached, I think, at a very much earlier period. I do Ninth Day.
not profess for a moment, and would not presume, under any circum- ^^'igM*''
stances, to enter into the sides of the internal political policy of L
England. The point that confronts us in New Zealand to some ex- Pr^eiential
tent draws us into the political question, whether we like it or not. '^^ ®'
That we cannot help. I want to make it clear in prefacing the ob- Ward.)^
sorvations I propose to make that New Zealand is most anxious to be
kept out of what one might call the hurly-burly of local political
warefare, either in the Old Country or in any other portion of the
Empire, but it wants to work for bringing about a stronger and
better condition of the Empire itself. While on this point, J should
like to say that it is very much to be regretted that the question of
preference is mixed up with that of Protection. It appears to me
that there is such a distinct line of demarcation between the two,
that it is worth while for a moment to place my own view upon
record as to the great importance of the distinction. I should like to
say that if I were a public man resident in England, and with the
general knowledge of economic conditions that I possess at the
moment, I should be found on the side of those who are fighting for
cheap food for the masses of the people. I believe that anything in
the way of preference that the Colonies might suggest, if it were
calculated to raise the price of food to the masses of the people, ought
to be opposed, and rightly so, by the British jjeople. For my own
part, if I thought that what New Zealand was urging in that respect
was likely to bring about an increase in price of the foodstuffs to the
masses of the people of England, speaking as a New Zealander, I
would not urge it upon the consideration of the Conference, and I
would not urge it upon the attention of the people of New Zealand ;
but it is because I believe that, with a system of preference on certain
articles between Britain and her Colonies, such a condition of in-
creasing the price of food would not arise, that I am an ardent sup-
porter of a preferential system between the Old Country and the
newer ones. New Zealand is in the position as our great coadjutor
in Canada is, of having put a preferential and reciprocal Trade Act
upon the Statute-book. It came into operation on the 16th Novem-
ber, 1903, and though Great Britain could not under its fiscal system
offer anything in return to us for mutual preference, we readily
ami, I think, rightl.v, gave preference to Great Britain under that
tariff. From one of the Returns placed before us by the ofJicers con-
nected with the Colonial Office, I will just enumerate what that pre-
ferential tariff provides for. " Goods enumerated in the First Sche-
" dule to the Act pay double the ordinary duty when of foreign pro-
" duction." I may say that cement is the only article which is re-
ferred to in the schedule. " Under the Second Schedule, foreign
" goods pay the ordinary duty plus one-half. Among the important
" articles included in this Schedule are boots and shoes, fancy goods
" and toys, hardware, hollow ware and iron nails, ironmongery, iron
'■ pipes and fittings, pianos, earthenware and glassware. Under the
" Third Schedule, foreign goods pay a 20 per cent ad valorem duty
" on certain articles formerly on the free list, whilst British goods
" are admitted free of duty as heretofore." There is a handicap there
of 20 per cent against foreign goods which come into New Zealand
without any duty, against British goods. " The chief classes of goods
" included in this Schedule are iron (plain black sheet, rod, bolt, bar
" and plate) rails for railways and tramways, and printing paper,"
and the Schedule attached to it shows that since that tariff has been
58—18 '!
274 COLOyiAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. in operation, giving a preference of duty to England as against
^^*l9n7^^' foreign countries, there has been a very considerable increase in the
L importation to Xew Zealand from England on some of the lines,
Preferential and a diminution from foreign countries.
Trade.
(Sir Joseph -^r. LLOYD GEOEGE : Wliat has been the effect upon our pur-
Ward.) chases from New Zealand ?
Sir JOSEPH WAED : I am going to refer to that a little later.
Mr. ASQUITH: Do you say there is a diminution upon the im-
ports from foreign countries to New Zealand?
Sir JOSEPH WAED : There are six classes in the return in
which there has been an increase from England.
Mr. ASQTJITH: I thought your statement was that on the whole
there had been an increase.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : I did not say that.
ITr. ASQUITH: And a diminution from foreign countries.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : No, I did not say that. I said that in six
classes there had been an increase under this tariff.
Mr. ASQUITH: I thought you meant on the whole.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : No, I did not say that. I propose to refer
to the point of the decrease of the trade in British products to Aus-
tralia and New Zealand presently. I want to say that the result of
a preference to British goods imported into New Zealand, froni in-
formation furnished to the Government Department in New Zealand,
has not brought about an increase in the price of those articles to
the consumers in New Zealand. On the contrary, the increased oppor-
tunity for competition between British traders by having a prefer-
ence, by putting a duty against foreign countries, has kept the price
of those articles down. That is one of the points in connection with
preference as against the general system of Protection that I specially
want to keep before myself, and before others, in considering this
question of the tariff. New Zealand has also extended a preference
tariff to Canada, and Canada has done the same to New Zealand.
New Zealand has also entered into a preference tariff treaty with
South Africa, and South Africa with New Zealand. So we are in
the position at the moment of having fully 10 to 20 per cent against
foreign countries in favour of Great Britain. Wc have entered into
a reciprocal treaty with South Africa and a reciprocal arrangement
with Canada by which we each make a concession upon our respective
tariffs. I refer to this in order to show we are in earnest in our desire
to bring about mutuality of trade within different portions of the
British Empire.
In reference to this question of the trade to the Colonies, I want
specially to refer to an aspect of it which I think is disconcerting,
that is the trade from the United Kingdom to Australia and New
Zealand. The Returns supplied to the Conference give the average
between the years 1899 to 1901 as against 1904 to 1906. There is a
very remarkable feature about it in my mind; it is headed " Ke-
lative Importance of British Colonies and Foreign Countries as
Consumers of United Kingdom Produce."
Mr. ASQUITH: It seems a rather useful table.
See No. xviv. of [Cd. 8524]: Papers laid before the conference.
COl.OMM. rOXFEREXCE, 1007 275
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, it is. I am reading from page 3.* Ninth Day.
It will be seen there that the only countries where the products of the '^''^igo?"^'
United Kingdom have been exported to, the only countries in which L
there has been a diminution of trade are the Australian Common- I'referential
wealth and New Zealand in the respective periods of three years in "y ^' u
each case — to the extent of CIO.OOO/. — and a diminution of 2,041,000Z. 'war^T
to Russia. T make no comment about Russia because I am not for
the purposes of my argument concerned with that, and the extra-
ordinary and unusual circumstances which have transpired there
doubtless are responsible to some extent for that diminution, but the
fact remains that those two countries are the only places to which the
exportation of products from England have decreased. In the case
of British India and Ceylon, there is an increase of 10,000,000?. ;
Germany. 3,G00,000Z. ; United States, 5,200,000?.; France. 53,000?.;
British South Africa (Cape and Natal), 2.624,000?.; Argentine,
7.700,000?.; British North America (Canada and Newfoundland),
4.600,000?.; China. 4.900.000?.; Belgium. 644,000; Netherlands,
15.000?.; Italy. 1.600,000?.; Japan. 459.000?.; Scandinavia, 390.-
000?.; and Egypt, 2,561,000?. Wliat is the cause of the diminution
of trade from Britain to Australia and New Zealand? My answer is
it has gone to other countries, and England under preference ought
to have the lot.
In connection with this I want to direct attention to what I re-
gard as a matter of some consequence from the standpoint of the pos-
sibility of bringing into operation an improved condition of trade be-
tween Britain and her dependencies. It will be assented to that the
age of Australia and New Zealand is comparatively young; they are
almost in their infancy by comparison at least with some of the older
countries. That, together with their population, are elements in
arriving at the possibility of the development of the future by com-
parison with what it is to-day, that ought at least to give us some
matter for consideration as to how we should shape our policy in
order to improve the general condition of affairs. To-day, according
to the Return furnished by the Colonial Oilice, the third greatest
purchasing customers for the outward products of the United King-
dom are Australia and New Zealand. According to the return, the
trade to Australia and New Zealand is 24,896,000?. per annum, and
British India and Ceylon is not twice that; it is 44,000,000?.
Germany is only 29.478,000?., whilst the population of Australia and
New Zealand at the last census was under 5,000.000— about 4,800.000
— tlie population of Germany is some 60.000,000, and the jjopulation
of India is 239,000,000. I allude to the population of India from
the fact that it is a portion of the British Empire, though I am quite
aware there are different races there, and that is an element that re-
quires some amount of analysing before placing it in the same cate-
gory as Germany, if you like. But here is a feature, that looking to
the future development of these Colonies, I cannot dispel from my
own mind as being of very vital consequence from the standpoint
that I regard it from. The trade of the Australian Commonwealth
and New Zealand last year was : Australia upwards of 110,000,000?.,
and New Zealand over 30,000,000?. You can put down roughly that
the combined trade to and from those countries as from 140,000,000?.
to 150,000,000?. They are in their infancy. There are under five
millions of people there, against sixty millions in Germany and two
hundred and thirty nine million in India. To-day they are the third
largest importers from the old country. To-day the trade of Australia
5S— 18i
276 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. and New Zealand is under 5,000,000L less from Great Britain than
^^t May. the trade of Germany is. To-day Germany has sixty millions of
L people as against under five millions of people in our country; she
Preferential has twelve times the population, and her age as a trading country
Trade. ^\x]^ England, compared to that of Australia and New Zealand, runs
'ward^^ iji^o centuries, as against New South Wales, which only held its
Ward.)
centenary ten or twelve years ago, and New Zealand, which is still
well under the century. England's outward trade to Australia and
New Zealand is greater than it is to America. The important fact
remains that these two great and growing self-governing British
Colonies belonging to the Old Country at this early period of their
history have got to be in the position of the third largest purchasers
of the products of the United Kingdom. They are in that position
to-day in their very infancy, and with a comparative handful of people
existing there I feel that as an element in connection with the line of
argument I am submitting to this Conference, as one calling, from
either an Imperial standpoint or, if you like, from a business stand-
point, for at least the generous recognition and generous consideration
of the powerful Mother Country. Our trade relationships are so
material to each other. Our attachment and destiny are on mutual
lines, and we should try and shape a policy which we believe to be
safe and beneficial for ourselves.
I do not want to take up the time of this Conference by giving
a number of figures for the purpose of impressing upon them the
view that New Zealand takes of this proposal to have preferential
trade, and, indeed, it would be unnecessary for me to do so in view
of the very full and valuable information furnished by Mr. Deakin
regarding this important matter. A point that I want to impress
upon the Conference is that in another twenty years from now,
which is a very short period in the history of Australia and New
Zealand, if they go on at anything like the proportionate increase of
trade that has characterised their development up to now, they will
be amongst the most important of the traders with the Old World.
I want to make this point as I am passing, that I honestly believe
that some of the great foreign Powers — Germany, France, and Italy
— if they have not reached their purchasing limit, have very nearly
reached it, and I will give my reasons for it. Unlike Canada, Austra-
lia, or New Zealand, those countries having populations fully as
great as they can reasonably carry, fix for their teeming millions,
within their own borders a policy of industrial development and con-
structional development in the way of industries th;it means the em-
ployment of their own people for the producing of what they require
for themselves. And as the outcome of the thick population within
their territories they will be bound to find employment for their own
people in regard to the manufacture of goods and raising of pro-
ducts their own people require. In proportion to the development
thai will go on in these great self-governing Colonies with their lim-
itless tracts of land still available, especially in Canada, Australia,
and New Zealand, for people to settle upon, reaffirm that the possi-
bility of the development of trade from Great Britain to the old
Continental countries, if it has not reached its limit, will be very
small as compared with tlio. enormous development of ^rnde that will
go on in these growing self-governing possessions.
That l>eing so, what I am anxious to put before the Conference
19 — though I know we can only go forward slowly, and a great ques-
tion such ns this must, in its ordinary cause, take time to be matured
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907 277
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
— how anxious all of us are to see our ideas put into operation at as Ninth Day.
soon a date as possible. What I want to try to impress upon this ^^\J^^^'
Conference is the difference between preference between Great Bri- ;.
tain and the Colonies and what is known as Protection. I draw the Preferential
distinction for this reason; I take a typical case. You may have an Trade,
importation of meat, if you like, or dairy produce. You may take yf^°^^^
Russia and America as cases in point who may be sending large
quantities of these articles to England at the moment. If you were
to put a duty against America and Russia upon a special article
and give the opportunity to Canada. Australia, iSI'ew Zealand, and
South Africa, to send that same article to England, I am as per-
suaded in my own mind as I am alive that the price would be as low
by the competition and natural rivalry between Canada, Australia,
New Zealand, and South Africa, as it would have been by allowing
that product to come in from Russia or America. It is because I
believe that, that I urge upon the consideration of this Conference
the desirability of drawing a line between the complex, difficult and
certainly controversial matter of Protection, in a great country such
as England is, and preference upon certain articles from our own
countries as against the same articles from foreign countries. It is
a very important matter from the standpoint from which we regard
it, and I would earnestly like to impress it upon the Conference.
Again, we are all proud and delighted to know that recent develop-
ments in South Africa have brought it within the possible range of
being a great Confederacy before very long. South Africa in times
of peace and with a settlement policy going on in the interior, as
must take place, they will not devote themselves entirely to the pro-
duction of ores from their mines. They are bound to have a land
settlement policy in parts of the country. It is only a question of
time when we will have South Africa, to some extent, joining with
these other British countries in having an excess of exports to send
to the Old Country from the products of its soil. The position to-
day is this — and in our country we feel it — we recognise that the Im-
perial statesmen who are responsible from time to time for the gov-
ernment of Great Britain have far-reaching responsibility — far
wider than any of us have. We know from time to time the require-
ments of Britain necessitate treaties between Great Britain and some
of the powerful nations with whom she is working side by side.
But here is a factor which concerns us. The foreign countries, I
think without exception, have got a high, almost prohibitive, tariff
against the natural products of our countries, with the knowledge
of the fact that England does not require to send them a single
parcel of her products from the soil of England at all. On account
of our adhesion — proudly so — to the Empire, to England, we find that
British people, to the extent of 90 per cent, settle in our countries,
working in season and out of season, making homes for themselves
and their families, helping to concrete our country into a solid por-
tion of the Empire, and helping and adding to the power and pres-
tige of Great Britain itself, and if they wanted to send their exports
out of New Zealand and trade with these other countries they find
they are barred by a high wall of protection against their natural
products. Germany is a case in point, France another, Italy another,
America another. The tariff against us is of the character that, unless
in an odd case where they want something from our colony for the
purpose of assisting in their manufactures, they take comparatively
nothing from us, and their greatest market is England. The in-
278
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. crease of the trade to Germany referred to during the course of Mr.
1st Ujxy, Deakin's able speech yesterday by Mr. Asquith, will be found largely
^^'' to apply to wool from Australia and also from New Zealand.
Preferential I want to tell this Conference what has taken place — and I refer
Trade. specially to the products of Australia and New Zealand — within the
<Sir Joseph jjjjowledge of the commercial world in recent times. The Germans,
with a comprehensiveness and with a method that calls for the admir-
ation of all of us, subsidise very mag-nificent steamers, from which
they leave no point of equipment out, in order to attract all classes
of people to travel by those steamers from the Old World to the newer
world across the ocean. Their courtesy, their attention, their gene-
ral aim in getting into this trade, and rightly so from their point of
view, is recognised by the whole of us. The outcome of these huge
subventions to their steamers in recent times has been to shift from
London — which for years and years was the emporium to which Aus-
tralians and A'ew Zealanders sent their wool for the Continent for
disposition by the London merchants — a large proportion of the trade
now passes London direct to the Continent. Those powerful commer-
cial rivals of England and her dependencies, the Germans, who form-
erly bought through the London merchants, now ship the wool to
Germany direct from Australia and New Zealand. I think it is right
for the Germans to save all they can in the way of double handling.
I think it is a good thing for our commerce to save anything it can in
' the way of transhipping and double freigtage or double handling,
but the fact does remain that that is the aspect which to some extent
shows that upon some matters we are doing trade with those who
are highly protected against us, which formerly we did with them,
no doubt, but it filtered through London and through England. I
allude to this only to finish this important part of the argimient.
At one time there was a general belief, certainly in the minds of many
people who were studying the developments and changes and altera-
tions in trade ramifications throughout the world, and a number of
us used to labour imder the happy delusion that trade followed the
flag. We know from actual experience in recent years that it is a
delusion. It does not follow the flag, except conditionally. Trade
follows the ship, and if the British ship with the British flag is
pioneer in a particular trade, or if the British ship with the British
flag is trading side by side with the ship of any other country under
another flag, and it is trading on equal conditions, the British will
probably get a fuller proportion of the trade from those countries.
It is a theoretical, fanciful, and misleading idea which used to exist,
that if you find a flag on the top of a ship the commercial would will
tip ovcr.ything into that ship for the mere purpose of doing so. No-
thing of the kind. Trade will follow the ship. The trade in the
British Possessions will follow our flag as a matter of preference and
the Germans notably give their own ships a preference, and we all
want to see our British merchants give our British ships a prefer-
ence. The Germans have recognised to a greater extent — I say it
without any depreciation of the British shipowners and merchants —
than we have the power and usefulness of a ship getting into waters
by the subventions they are giving to them to enable them to compete
against our ships, and they draw a certain amount of trade from the
countries to wliich tliey go. Wliat do they got for it? Merchants in
any part of the world as a matter of biisiness want to save all the
money they can in order to enable thorn to compote with their rivals,
and n merchant says: "If I can ship my wool to Germany, and get
COLOMAL CONFERENCE, 1907 279
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" certain things back, I save the rate of exchange which I should Kinth Ua.v.
" have to paj' if I had to remit the cost of the purchase of those goods ^''ioa-"'^ '
" to Germany." The moment you get into the position of interchange 1
of trade between those self-governing Colonies, which are extending I'lefereniial
to an enormous extent, and put them in the position of feeling and ' ^
finding that they are being handicapped in their own Empire in the ' Ward.)
matter of trade, you drive them as a matter of necessity to other
countries in the same line of business, and by degrees you find a
diversion of trade which would be useful and valuable to the Old
Country and useful to us — a diversion which we ought by every means
in our power to try and avoid.
Mr. DEAKIN: Sometimes a British flag flies over a ship because
it is owned by a company registered in Great Britain, although its
capital and control are absolutely foreign.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is so. I do not want at the moment
to go into that aspect of the question.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: The White Star Line.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is not the case with the White Star
Line.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I do not want at present to go into that
aspect of the question. We have now a great opportunity of meeting
at this Conference three responsible Ministers of Great Britain in the
British Government. Anxious as we are, I am certain, to do all in
our power to develop the best interests of the old land and help in the
development of the newer one, the way in which it should be done is
a matter upon which there may be difference of opinion, but I believe
the desire of the wliole of us is to achieve the same end, and it is by
interchange of opinion on some matters of this character that we may
be able to help each other to arrive at a practical solution, and it is
that and that alone that I am anxious to bring before the Conference.
I am desirous of saying a few words about another question which
has a very strong bearing upon the development of the trade of Great
Britain with her Colonies. If you. Lord Elgin, went out to New
Zealand to-day, and went into any town there you would find a
representative of every important country in the word except Great
Britain there. I am not talking of the Governors who so ably repre-
sent the British Government, especially on the diplomatic side, and
upon matters concerning the carrying on of the Government of the
self-governing country in relation to the old land, but I say if you
go to New Zealand and to Australia — and no doubt the same remark
applies to Canada, though I do not know it from my own experience
— you will find all over the country in every large town in New Zea-
land that there is a Consul or Vice-Consul specially selected. You
will find that those Consuls are full of valuable information on all
important matters, and especially regarding trade. That they are
ready to furnish that information to every person coming from their
country. They help their Governments and their merchants by the
dissemination of information, mail after mail, year in and year out,
upon all aspects of trade, whether it be from Britain to our Colonies,
or from our Colonies to Britain. They help the trader in our Colony
to get any information he wants upon any aspect of that trade within
the foreign territory. You cannot find a single representative of
Great Britain in any of these self-governing British countries, so far
280 COLOMAL CoyFEREXCE, 190;
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. as I know, to whom any person desiring to do trade with your manu-
"^907^^' f^cturers. or with your producers, or with your professional men, in
the Old Country can go. I say that is a great blot on the system of
Pr^erential the present commercial development and the present commercial posi-
(Sir Joseph *'^°"' ^^^ ^* ^^ " great want which will be more felt in the future, when
Ward.) lielp is wanted, to extend and develop our commercial relationships
with one anotli .. The importance of it, from the point of view of
a visitor to any jf these countries, is so great, that in three out of five
cases, if a mar cannot get the information he wants, even regarding
the trade of Great Britain itself, he goes to one of the consuls of
another country and avails himself of his existence and of his system
of collecting information for the purpose of doing what he desires.
Within my own knowledge, and I say it advisedly, though I do not
want to name the country or the people, within the last three years
one of the great countries that is commercially an active rival of
England, has by more than one of its emissaries travelled through
our country for the purpose of getting information upon every con-
ceivable kind of trade and other matters now being done with Britain
that might be of use to the merchants of his own country.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : An emissary of the Government of the
country — an official?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I do not say that— I say emissaries— I
know the actual facts — and I am a little guarded in saying it. I feel
sure that this Conference will agree with me that it would be a dero-
gation from the high and essentially dignified position of the Gover-
nor of any of our Colonies to be a medium for obtaining and furnish-
ing information concerning great industrial communities whether on
the producing side or the manufacturing side. It would be a most
inconvenient method of obtaining such information, even if it were
desirable, and I feel sure it cannot be desirable. As an outcome of
this Conference and of our preliminary discussions, in the desire to
help trade development between the old land and the newer lands, I
hope we may see some eiiort made to place us side by side with our
great competitors in the matter of obtaining information and dis-
seminating knowledge.
ifr. ASQUITH : Do you know that steps have already been taken
for that purpose?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I was not aware of that.
Mr. ASQTTTTH : The Board of Trade have appointed trade cor-
respondents— five in South Africa and six in Australia.
Sir WTLLTA"Nr LTNE : None of them fitted to be appointed.
Mr. ASQUITH : That is another matter. There is a difference .
of opinion about that. \Vliatever may be said about the personnel the
office is brought into existence.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : About Australia, if I may say so. I
have been in consultation with Mr. Deakin as to the personnel. You
must not assume that the thing is settled here ; we are conferring
with Air. De.nkin on the point. May I say also, that with regard
to Canndn the name of the gentleman sent over was suggested to us
by Lord Strnthcona because ho knew him well.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER : He could not be a better one.
Mr. ASQFITH : At any rate an attempt is being made to deal
with this very important matter.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am very glad to hear that is so, and I
COLOSIAL COyPERESCE, 1907 281
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
congratulate Mr. Tiloyd George upon the initial step which has Vieen Xinth Day.
taken. T have not had the opportunity of being consulted as to New ^^^gJJ**^'
Zealand, but if I may, with some experience of what is necessary, I L
should like to suggest that a trade correspondent is not sufficient. It Preieieutial
would be quite inadequate in my judgment in New Zealand. One's j ^ k
practical knowledge of it may be of some use in extending what I 'ward.*^
recognise is a very valuable thing which has already been com-
menced. I would point out that the configuration of our country is
such that unless a trade correspondent was able to split himself up
into a dozen parts he would be bound to be located at different times
if not regularly in one centre.
lie may move from that from time to time, but that is of little
use to the man who goes, say, from England — as many of them do —
for the purpose of obtaining information, and comes to a particular
town and wants to find out, generally speaking, promptly, the local
peculiarities of the trade there, or obtain information on questions
on the spot peculiar to that particular place. I merely reaffirm the
necessity of having a representative in every large town, and I am
sure it can be done very inexpensively if what I understand Mr.
Lloyd George has so well begun were extended so that we had in the
same manner as other coimtries a representative in every important
town. If your representative was, say, in Auckland, he would be
1,200 miles away from a business centre at the other end of the
Colony. A man requiring information cannot wait until he meets
the trade correspondent in the place in which he is. I put it forward
with all respect for the consideration of the Board of Trade, which
is such a valuable portion of the fabric of Government. In my
opinion it is worthy of consideration whether we should not, in order
not to be behind the competitors of England and of our Colonies,
appoint representatives to the duty of obtaining and disseminating
trade information which is so valuable in all parts of the Empire.
I want to say a word upon another important point. I am deeply
in earnest in my desire to see the possibility of drift of any kind so
far as the Colonies are concerned, prevented. I am positive in my
own mind that unless both England and the Colonies progress, if
they are allowed to stand still, in the aspect of their sentimental con-
nection with the Old Countiy being sufficient, and in the aspect of
the ties of kinship keeping them together, and all that sort of thing,
that to stand still means retrogression, and retrogression means drift.
Apart altogether from this question of preferential trade, the people
of the Colonies wish to feel that they are in closer touch with the
people of the Old Country, and .1 am very earnest in my advocacy,
which I have publicly expressed for many years, of a hope that the
British Government may coalesce with the Governments of Austra-
lia and New Zealand, and in one respect, if not in all, with the Gov-
ernment of the Great Dominion of Canada, in bringing our peoples
closer together. There is one practical way in which it can be done,
and, in my opinion, it is the only practical way in which it can be
done, that is, by taking a lesson out of the books of some of our
adversaries, and not merely giving a subsidy for a line of mail steam-
ers to carry a mail at a very rapid rate, which is most important,
but seeing that in some form or another the traders of the Old World
and of the New World are put into a position of equal competition
against their foreign com{)etitor3, who are doing so much in assisting
their merchants by their own steamships. I will not name the
crowned head in one of the countries who takes an active personal
282 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. interest in tlie ramifications of that country's trade; but they play
^^*190"^^' ^^® game so thoroughly and effectively, that, unless we take similar
!_ methods, my opinion is that, to a certain extent, the position of drift
Preferential will arise. I believe we ought at this Conference, without going into
Trade. ^^ intertwining difficulties surrounding trade, to consider in one or
^ Ward.T *"'° I'espects its practical application. I say there is nothing that
would do our countries of Xew Zealand and Australia more good
than an alteration in the conduct of the Suez Canal. I introduce
that without any reservation. I say it from the Imperial point of
view, and I ask the Conference to put its imprimatur in the course
of this discussion upon improving what is one of the highways of the
world. The country — France — which has a large share with England
in that Canal would naturally have the same treatment extended to
it as we wish to extend to ourselves ; but my own belief is that it
would pay Great Britain, and it would certainly pay our Colonies, to
join in it, and I believe it would pay the French Government hand-
somely to make that Suez Canal free for our and their own ships,
and to allow our respective countries to pay to the shai-eholders the
whole of the interest they are getting on their capital now. To-day
our cargo steamers which are trying to keep in touch with England
have to take a 45 or 50 days trip to get here with our perishable
goods. Here is a highway of the world which is used by large
steamship lines, and there are some magnificent ships trading to
Australia which use it ; but unless you get some powerfully organi-
sed wealthy corporate body, whose people pay the enormous dues
upon ships, passengers, and cargo going through the Canal, you do
not get it used generally, I mean by cargo steamers only. Tou are
thus limiting its use to the wealthy, while the poor unfortunate
tramps which go to and from our country have to travel the oceans
of the world, and take ten days or a fortnight longer to carr:^ our
products to England. It may be regarded as presumption on my part
to suggest this. I am in deadly earnest about it. I do not know the
exact method by which it can be done, but I have a mortal hatred of
the toll-bar. I have only met with one during the last ten years, and
that, I am sorry to say, was the other day on the road to the Crystal
Palace. I have an absolute hatred of the toll system, and if there ever
was a system of toll put as a clog to the development of the trade of
England and of the Colonies, to say nothing of the trade to the East,
it is the continuance of high and almost prohibitive charges on vessels
using the Suez Canal, and minimises the splendid effect of the
masterstroke of the late Lord Beaconsfield. of the acquiring of the
shares of the Suez Canal in the interests of the Empire itself. If
we are not to stand still in the Old World and in the New World, I
do say we ought to recognise the march of progress which is going on.
and we ought not, from the sordid point of view, or from the point
of view of the interest upon the shares, to allow this Canal to stand
in the way of the Empire's progress. The country I represent would
willingly do its share towards improving the present position of the
Canal. If we had the right of going through the Suez Canal under
the British flag free we would help towards paying the interest.
Mr. ASQUITH: It is a very interesting proposal. Do you pro-
pose to free the Canal for all the world, or only for certain specified
nations?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I said for the nations concerned only;
that is, those who own it.
COI.ltSl.M. CO\FEREyCE, 1901 283
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. ASQUITH: So that you would not allow the Germans to go Ninth Day.
through free of toll? ^''\m^''
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Not at the same rate. Why should we? _ .
If you own a good thing, why give it to an opponent who is trying to 'Trade. '^
cut your throat every day in the week upon even terms? I fully (g;,. Joseph
admit it is a complicated question to deal with. Ward.)
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I understand the Austrian Government
does remit a portion of the dues to its own ships going through the
Suez Canal.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : It is a very sensible proceeding on the part
of the Austrian Government, I think.
Sir WILFRIl) LAURIER: The tolls are paid by the Austrian
Government ?
Mr. DEAKIN : It is another way of reaching the same end.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I said it was a very important matter and
I approacli it with some diiSdence, because I recognise the difficulties
surrounding it ; but I want to take the opportunity because we are so
anxious to be brought into closer touch with the Old World. Our
greatest difficulty, and indeed the greatest misfortune that we suffer
from, is the time that it takes to get our products and our people
to and from England itself. What I have suggested may not be
feasible, but I should be so glad if it were possible for the powerful
British Government to, in some way, investigate the matter with a
\'iew to seeing whether this world's highway could not be made in
the interests of the development of the trade between certainly those
portions of the world that use the Suez Canal.
Mr. ASQUITH: Do you consider that the present rate of tolls is
prohibitive to the cheaper kind of cargo and vessels?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I have been told repeatedly, by people who
are concerned on both sides of the world, that for ordinary cargo
purposes they do not generally send their vessels through the Canal
to or from Australia and New Zealand because of the tolls.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I know the tramps complain bitterly and
say that their interests are sacrificed to those of the liners.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : It costs one steamship company 100,000/.
a year.
Mr. DEAKIN: To the fortnightly boats running to Australia it
means 100,000Z. a year.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The tramps have been asking here for
increased representation on the London Committee; but, unfortu-
nately, we have no power at all in the matter.
Mr. ASQUITH: This is a very important question which has
been raised.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It is connected with trade, and I felt I
must allude to it. I do not propose to take up the time of the Con-
ference very much longer, but I also want to say how very much,
certainly New Zealand, and I thinlc all the seK-governing Colonies,
■would value the co-operation of Great Britain with them in their
desire to come closer to the Old World. I am not unmindful of the
fact that you are doing a great deal, and a great deal that is appre-
ciated, in the direction of assisting in the carriage of mails, and
284 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. consequently helping to obtain improved and cheaper facilities for
^**1907 ^' passengers and cargo, on liners to and from our Colonies. I may,
L perhaps, be allowed to speak for Mr. Deakin in this matter, and for
Preferential myself, and I know also for Sir Wilfrid Laurier, because we want to
_. . " bring our countries, that is New Zealand, to within 20 days of Loif-
Ward.) don, and Australia and Canada proportionately to a very much
greater extent.
Mr. DEAKIN : That makes for unity.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, I refer to this because it makes for
unity, because it makes for cohesion, and because it brings about a
feeling or recognition on the part of the people in our countries that
the people in the Old World, whence they came, are in sympathy with
them. Even if we cannot to-day put all we advocate into practical
effect their desire is, if possible, to see a closer union on practical
lines consummated. We can only do it by bearing our own part of
it, and we are prepared to do it. The advantages are mutual and they
are of as great importance to England as they are to the Colonies.
It is because of the importance to all parts of the Empire — not
directly India or South Africa in this case, perhaps — that I earnestly
urge it.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: How would you bring New Zealand
within 20 days of England?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We can do it across the Atlantic from
England, then overland through Canada, and then across the Paci-
fic. We can do it without any difficulty whatever.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Within 20 days?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, within 20 days. Sir Wilfrid Laurier
wiU agree with me that it can be done. Four days and nights to
Canada, four days and nights across Canada, and 12 days on the
Pacific to New Zealand. It is capable of being effected without any
difficulty whatever, providing we all co-operate to enable it to be done.
Steamers can be provided of a size and speed that can bring New
Zealand within 20 days of England. If you want to come close to-
gether, it is necessary that large capital should be invested and
powerful vessels obtained on both sides of Canada. We in New Zea-
land are prepared to do our part to the fullest possible extent. Aus-
tralia would, I am sure, be prepared to do their part. And so is
Canada, as I understand from Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Would that be for the purpose of carry-
ing goods?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: No, passengers and possibly some goods;
certainly from England to Canada and from Vancouver to the
Colonies.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: These steamers would carry some
goods.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Would it pay to carry goods? They
would have to discharge the cargo at Vaucouver and put it on to the
Canadian Pacific Railway, and then discharge at Halifax.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes, but it could be done; it is done
now.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : There would be so much labour involved
in handling the gooda.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 285
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: There is more labour involved; but Ninth Day.
the idea would be to have services equal to the best services between 1907^"^'
England and New York, so that the voyage betweent Canada and
England should occupy four days. Pr^ereutial
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am thinking of the labour of discharg- Olr. Llo.vd
ing the goods at Vancouver and putting them on the Canadian Paci- George.)
fie Railway, and then discharging again at Halifax and putting them
on another line of steamers.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: You could not do it with cargo;
that is impossible.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : So I should have thought.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: But it would increase the trade between
Canada and Australia.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : All express goods could be discharged
very promptly.
Mr. ASQTJITH: It would be mainly a passenger and mail route,
I take it?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes, and perishable goods also— fruits
and things of that kind.
Mr. ASQUITH: How do you make your 20 days? It seems rather
a short time.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Four to Halifax, four across Canada,
and 12 upon the Pacific, I understand?
Mr. ASQUITH : That gets you to Auckland, I suppose.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Either to Auckland or to Wellington as
the steamers elected. We could do it easily in 20 days. It may to
some people seem a dream, but I am persuaded it is capable of being
practically worked, and I am positive in saying that the Colonies
want it. We are anxious for it because we recognise the value to our
people of being able to come to the Old Country and meet your peo-
ple here. We recognise the enormous advantage of rapidity of mail
communication even allowing for the speed that can now be attained
across the cables. We know all these facilities mean increased
avenues for obtaining and developing trade. The more you bring
the teeming millions of England into touch with the Colonies — Can-
ada, Australia, and New Zealand — with their enormous fields for the
absorption of people, the greater chance you have of having those
countries settled by the excess of your British people from time to
time whom you do not require, and the more rapidly that will be
brought about, and the more rapidly the trade between them expand.
From the point of view of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand it is
most important, because there will be an enormous trade develop-
ment between those countries on their own account. If we could do
the two things at once and also reduce the charge for cable messages,
it all goes in the direction of bringing about a preference of trade
under the British flag between the outlying portions of the Empire
and the Old Country.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: You would require to have an arrange-
ment regarding the service right through via the Suez Canal and via
Canada fortnightly, because you could not keep up a double service
of boats. We have boats coming through the Canal now.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It is a matter worthy of consideration.
286 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Dar. Mr. DEAKIX: We have a weekly service alternately by two lines.
^ 1907"" ^^^ '^^ ^^^ present line could be replaced by this new service.
PrefeT^tial ^^- ^'^OTD GEOEGE : You would not carry mails through the
Trade. Suez Canal?
(Sir Joseph Mr. DEAKIX: Yes; one week through the Suez Canal, and the
Ward. I . 1 xi_-
next week this way.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : How long does it take through the Suez
Canal?
^Ir. DEAKIX : They could do it in 28 days, I think. We dawdled
for four or five days on the voyage this year.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: Then the mails would be necessarily
carried by the shorter route.
Sir WILFRID LAUEIEE : In time the shorter route would take
the place of the other services.
Mr. DEAKIX : When I say 28 days I am speaking of what the
present steamers can do without departing from their present condi-
tions. The passage by that Suez route could be lowered by several
days more. I am not an expert in the matter, but they are travelling
now at a rate which shows me that they could easily do their work in
28 instead of in 30 or 31 days.
Mr. ASQUITH: But you can hardly bring it down to 20 days.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : They have to call at Marseilles, Genoa,
and other places ; they would not be able to pay without that.
Mr. ASQUITI^: If you assume the new route to be brotight into
effective operation.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We had a mail service across America in
28 days and sometimes less. It is only 400 miles longer from Canada
to Xew Zealand, and they were comparatively slow boats. Twenty
days could be done easily enough. It is only a question of having
sufficient money to do it.
Mr. ASQUITH : You would want first-class boats in the Atlantic
and the Pacific.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes. unless you have them of th;it
character you cannot do it ; and that is the class I am advocating.
I was going to refer to some other matters, but I may have a
further opportunity of doing so, but I will now bring my observa-
tions to a close. I do not want unnecessarily to take up the time of
the Conference. I have endeavoured to show that in our country we
have already put upon our Statute Book trade preference upon some
articles for England, which will continue. It is from 10 to 20 per
cent, against foreign countries, as I have already pointed out, in
favour of England. We have done the same in regard to South
Africa, and the same in regard to Canada, and we are anxious to
have it with England. How that should be done is a matter entirely
for those who. like ourselves, are in charge of a self-governing por-
tion of the Empire, namely. England itself, and in that respect I will
not presume for a moment to interfere; but I want to say that tlu''
commercial policy of the powerful nations with which it is necessary
for Great Britain to be in many respects in touch is a policy which
in the nature of things is hostile to the self-governing Colonies.
What I look forward to. though I do not know how long it will be.
but I believe it will come, is the time when Great Britain and her
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 287
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Colonies will enter into a preferential system of trading, and when Ninth Day.
they have achieved the position of being in a group of preferential ^^^qny"'^'
tradinjr countries, then they can go with complete justification and -
with great hope of success upon equal terms, to any of these other Preferential
powerful countries that have their high tariffs against us now, and ,. '"^"®'
ask upon fair terms for reciprocal treaties, not for England herself 'wardT
but for England and her self-governing Colonies, on matters which
all would be prepared to consider, and which would enable the bring-
ing about of fair conditions of trading between the Old World and
the newer one. These foreign countries now in their fiscal systems
hit the Colonies all the time. They do not hit England in the matter
of external trade from England in your natural products, because you
do not send them out of the country. Tou are naturally a large con-
suming people and you require to import from over the sea food
stuffs very largely indeed. Other countries do not in that respect hit
you in the same way as they hit the self-governing Colonies. My
own belief is that if the time arrives, as I believe it will, when we can
have a system of preferential trade between ourselves, we could, as
commonsensc, practical people, in charge of our .espective countries,
•vithout any do-.ibt enter into reciprocal trade relations as a whole;
and say the Germans or the Americans A'ould then, in respect of
certain articles, be prepared to allow them into their country in re-
turn for certain other articles being allowed into ours. Italy and
France would have to do the same. We should then be all on fair
terms. I honestly believe that it could be done without injury to the
masses of the people of England. If I thought it was going to injure
the masses of the people of this country, I for one would not be
favourable to it. I honestly believe preferential trade within our
own countries would vitalise and add to the strength and greatness
of the Empire.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Does your preference to Great Britain
extend right through your tariff, or does it discriminate?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It does not go right through our tariff.
Upon a number of articles which are named we have a higher rate
against foreign countries, and nllow England to come in on the free
list for a number of articles that we impose on against a foreign
country.
Sir WILLIAM LYXE: Do you charge any items the same to
Great Britain as to foreign countries?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, some of them.
Mr. ASQUITH: A good many; the large majority, I think.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I read them all out from the return. The
whole of the information is here.
Mr. ASQUITH: The preference only extends to about a dozen or
a score things at the outside. Speaking from recollection, 20 per
cent, of the total British imports are affected by the preference?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes, about one-fifth.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Of the British imports to New Zealand,
yes. If you applied the same system, and gave us 20 per cent, of the
total articles imported into England, we should say it was a good
thing.
288
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Ninth Day.
1st Mav,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. ASQUITH: I am not complaining at all; but I was only
pointing out what the dimensions of the preference are in answer to
Sir William Lyne's question.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : From our point of view what we have al-
ready done shows an earnest desire for preference to be given to the
old land. Whether we are right in that or otherwise must be left to
others than myself to judge. We believe that it is a good thing, and
are quite prepared to extend it. As far as New Zealand is concerned
we are only too ready to enter into a reciprocal treaty with our
friends of Australia to which Mr. Deakin has referred. We have also
an adjustment of the Customs Tariff to put on the Statute Book next
session, and we are most anxious to bring about improved trade re-
lationships between the Colonies, and most anxious to assist in the
development of trade between the old world and the newer one. Apart
from feelings of sentiment which are so valuable, we have an addi-
tional desire to build up our country by reciprocal treatment, which
will strongly develop trade between ourselves.
Dr. JAMESON: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I shall be brief, in-
deed. After the able and full speeches of Mr. Deakin and Sir Joseph
Ward the ground seems to be pretty well covered. At the same time,
as Sir Joseph Ward has said, this is an extremely important subject,
I might almost say vital, if you look to the future of our Colonies and
of the Empire generally. Therefore .1 do not think the representative
of any Colony would be justified in not saying a few words in sup-
port of the proposition now before the Conference.
As regards the Cape, which I represent, I think it is peculiarly
fitting that its representative should speak. Though economically,
certainly, we are far behind the representatives of the Colonies who
have already spoken, yet in the inception of this idea of preference,
I think our statesmen were quite in the front. We have had two great
statesmen — somebody said the only two men we have ever produced
to whom you could legitimately apply the world " statesmen " — Mr.
Rhodes and Mr. Hofmeyr. Mr. Rhodes as far back as 1890, I re-
member, immediately he took office, wrote to the then Prime Minis-
ters of Canada and Australia, putting before them this proposition
of preference to the goods of the Mother Country. Again, when tlie
Chartered Company was established in Rhodesia, Mr. Rhodes insist-
ed, and with great difficulty carried his point, that there should be a
clause put in the Order in Council establishing it that no British
goods entering Rhodesia should ever be charged more duty than the
then Cape Tariff, which was 9 per cent, at that time. That has been
carried out, of course, ever since. The Customs Tariff of the South
African Customs Union is 12 per cent., but because of that clause
introduced by Mr. Rhodes we have to allow Rhodesia only to charge
9 per cent., 3 per cent, less than the Cape. Then Mr. Hofmeyr, as
Mr. Deakin has quoted already, in 1887 brought this forward, return-
ing to it again in 1894, at Ottawa, and certainly, with -regard to that
objection to preference that it might include bargaining, and might
also lead to strained relations between the Mother Country and the
various Colonies, as brought forward by Mr. Hofmeyr, there was no
question that that would be done, not as a question of any advantage
to the Colony itself, but as a question of uniting together in defence,
which is the most important subject, all the portions of the British
Empire. Then also in the Cape and South Africa, the practical car-
rying out of preference with the Mother Country was largely helped
COLOyiAL CONFERENCE, 1907 289
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
—certainly, I might say almost, brought about — by Lord Milner. Ninth Day.
When I mention these three names in connection with preference, I ^"''',0^7*^'
think South Africa perhaps has given what I might call a useful L
object lesson in a subject of this kind which affects the whole empire, Preferential
and as far as the leaders of political opinion in South Africa at all irade.
events are concerned, it was kept outside party politics, because I Jameson )
do not think anyone could say that Mr. Rhodes, Mr. Hofmeyr, and
Lord Milner were on all fours in domestic politics in South Africa.
As I have said, Mr. Deakin has practically put the whole case
before us, and any one following Mr. Deakin, especially as in my case
I endorse every word he has said, would in attempting to elaborate it
only weaken the case. So .1 am not going to attempt it. But I take
it we are here to-day to try and get something from the Imperial
Government. I am not going to split words about it. I am not
going to say we are making a wonderfully generous offer from the
Colonies, and it rests with the Imperial Government to do what it
likes. Of course, it rests with the Imperial Government to do what
it likes. As Mr. Deakin quoted from a statement of the Premier of
Queensland yesterday, of course there was no question of insistence
on the Imperial Government or any other Government adopting this
preference principle, but I think we are all bound to influence in
every possible way that we can, not only the Imperial Government
but the other Colonies, to enter into some preferential arrangement.
Therefore we are asking for preference from the Imperial Govern-
ment— however small. I will put in — ^we want, if possible, the principle
established. We who believe in preference believe it will grow of it-
self. So, however small it is, we will not say we will be satisfied, but
we will be thankful. I know the objection of a certain section of the
people is: "That is exactly the thing; we do not want a principle
established ; we do " not agree with it. " To that I say, let us try
the experiment, and see whether it will grow into a principle or not,
and that might get over the difficulty.
Toil, Lord Elgin, told us, I think, in your opening speech on this
subject, that perhaps we are not all agreed, but at the same time we
could speak fully to each other on the subject, and perhaps come to
an agreement and understand each other. Although it may be pre-
sumptuous for someone from abroad to attempt to influence the peo-
ple in this country, I venture to say it is our duty, if we can, to in-
fluence them, even at the cost of being considered presumptuous. Re-
membering, as I say, that we are asking for something from the Im-
perial Government. I would say at the same time, from my view of
the subject, we are not asking the Imperial Government to change
its fiscal policy at all. I take it we are all agreed that all that we are
really asking for is for the Government to change its methods with
regard to fiscal policy, and are not asking them to change at our bid-
ding its fiscal policy. I take it, some 60 years ago or more, when
Free Trade was established in the United Kingdom, it was avowedly
put forward that this was with a view to getting universal Eree
Trade throughout the world.
Mr. ASQUITH: No.
Dr. JAMESON: Well, I have always understood so. If it was
not 80, I say, from our point of view, our bringing forward preference
at present is with the object of getting universal Free Trade through-
out the world. Then we preference advocates at bottom are trying
to go for Eree Trade by steps, not at one jump. We do not expect,
58—19
2^ COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190S
Ninth Day. after the experience of the last 60 years, to carry out anything we
'^^iqn?''^' are doing by one jump. It seems to me that 60 years ago, when Free
1 Trade was established here, of course England could afFord to do it.
Preferential It was the very best thing she could do at the time ; she was prac-
^^ ^' tically in the zenith of her fame at the time, and wanted her raw
T 1 material and food in cheap.
Jameson.) ^
Mr. ASQUITH : It was in her own interest.
Dr. JAMESOX: It was in her own interest. She forgot how
she had built up that position to allow her to afford Free Trade. The
last 60 years — we can look back upon that time — perhaps has shown
us that she did forget she was built up as a manufacturing nation by
Protection, by navigation laws. Then we can see tliat during that 60
.vears other nations have adopted the same method that was suc-
cesful in England. They have caught up to her, or man.v of them
have actually caught up — at all events, they are going to if they have
not. It seems to us if the.v do catch up, and she does not change her
methods, she is handicapped against them. They have got the handi-
cap, of course, of Free Trade as practised in England, but they have-
not adopted it. Our idea is, as Sir Joseph Ward said just now, .that
having preferential trade throughout the Empire, which is ultimately
an ideal but not practically so at present, might lead to Free Trade
within the Empire, and then, as Mr. Deakin said, the enormous fac-
tor of the whole British Empire being Free Trade coidd compel modi-
fications of the fiscal attitude of the rest of the world, and practically
compel Free Trade throughout the world, and the recognition of in-
dividual effort everywhere. That is the general idea.
That being our idea of what preference may lead to, it is natural
that we should do our utmost to influence the Imperial Government
to see eye to eye with us on this subject. Already all the Colonies
see eye to e.ye with each other. Therefore it seems to me the case
having been put by Mr. Deakin and Sir Joseph Ward, all that is left
for us is to try, if we can, that it is not hopeless to get the Imperial
Government to see eye to eye with us on this subject. I know we are
met at the present time with the answer at once : " The nation has
decided against you, and of course the Government must be bound by
•' what the nation has said at the last election. " Even then I do-
not feel hopeless because looking back to the last 14 or 15 years one
sees that governmental and other opinions on this subject have con-
siderably changed. I should quote for instance that after the 1894
Conference at Ottawa, Lord Kipon, the then Colonial Secretary, is-
sued a memorandum* on that, giving a series of objections why Mr.
I [of me.vr's ]>r(>posal, as it was brought forward at that time, could
not be adopted. First, .1 think, ho put that the Colonies themselves
could never sacrifice their revenue to give preference. Well, they
have all sacrificed their revenue, so that objection is gone. The next
point was that any such preferential doctrine if it was carried out
wo\ild interfere with existing British treaties with other nations, to
the detriment of Great Britain. I believe the ones nlhided to at that
time were Belgium and Germany. Those treaties have been de-
nounced, and I believe with no detriment to (ireat Britain. The
third objection was that possibly you miglit have specific tariffs be-
tween the United Kingdom and the Colonies, but it would be so
difficult to carry it out that it had better be dropped. T think that
'See [C. 7824].
COLOMAL COXFERSyCE, 1907 ,.L.'.^-^ 291
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
was very weak, surely it might be attempted, and you could not say Ninth Day.
specific tariffs were impossible until a commission had sat and in- ^^1907 ^'
quired into the matter to see whether they were or not. It is a much 1
bigger thing with regard to the Ignited Kingdom, but here we have tTeferential
in tabulated form specific tariffs that are at work now between South "^^ *'
Africa and Canada. Australia, and Xew Zealand respectively — a jaujeson )
whole body of them — which makes a considerable difference I am sure
in the trade between those four dependencies. I may sa.v when we
were discussing in this room the question of a secretariat the other
day, I had in my mind that if we got some very small concession
which I am still hopeful of from Mr. Asquith. one of the first uses
of that secretariat would be to sit do^vn and go into the tariff ques-
tion of the Fnited Kingdom and the Colonies. That was partly the
reason at that time I was very insistent that the secretariat if possible
should be composed of people conversant with the various Colonies
and who woidd understand the tariffs. The last objection was that
any idea of preference would interfere with the natural channels of
trade. I have a different idea of what the natural channels of trade
should be from what Lord Eipon intended on that occasion, That
really meant the most profitable channels of trade; but in the last
few years many words have changed their significance, and I hope
we have come to consider as the natural channels of trade those chan-
nels where our kith and kin are rather than the foreigner.
J think that shows there has been considerable change in gov-
ernmental opinion in the last 14 or 15 years. Then in a much more
recent period I think we get a good deal of hope of a change of opin-
ion even amongst the present Government. We were all very pleased
to see Mr. Lloyd George's Bill the other day in connection with ship-
ping, to make sure that the foreigner should not have any greater ad-
vantages with regard to sanitary arrangements and load line, and so
on. That is all in the direction of helping British shipping against
the foreigner.
Then, in a recent speech of the Under Secretary of State for the
Colonies, at the West Aiistralian dinner, I think it was noticed Mr.
Winston Churchill said it is a very easy thing for two tariffs to make
arrangements one against the other, but it is an infinitely easier thing
for two tariff states to make an arrangement to help each other. I
do not see why with the several Colonies with a tariff it should not
be an infinitely easy thing for them to make an arrangement with
self-governing Colonies. As to the idea that the Government is
pledged not to give any preference to the Colonies which it does not
give to the rest of the world, I wonder if-the Government remembers
at the present moment that the British Government — as represented
by those two small protectorates. Basvitoland and Bechuanaland — is
giving preference to these Colonies that we have made treaties with
which it does not give to foreign nations. It is actually giving pre-
ference at the present moment, not at oiir request, but at the request
of the Imperial Government, to Bechuanaland and Basutoland,
which are entirely under the control of the Imperial Government. At
the request of the Imperial Government they were included in our
South African Customs Union, which gives a preference to Great
Britain and the other self-governing Colonies.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : When was that ?
Dr. JAMESOX : At the last Customs Convention a year and a
half ago, at Maritzburg, and in the one before also. I have only
58— 19i 1;
Jameson.)
292 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
^'^tli D^J"- been three weeks in England, but I have received from various asso-
" 1907"" ' ciations throughout England I believe a little over 700 resolutions in
favour of tariff reform.
Preferential
Trade. Mr. DEAK,IN : I have had hundreds.
iieson.) ^^' JAMESON: I had them counted the day before yesterday,
and it was 680 then.
Mr. ASQUITH: Where from?
Dr. JAMESON: From different parts of the country — from
England. A large number of those I am glad to say, are from work-
ing men's associations. As Sir Joseph Ward said just now, and I
quite agree, this thing must work slowly, but it is working slowly,
and the working man is waking up to it. When Mr. Askwith inter-
polated yesterday while Mr. Deakin was speaking, and asked him how
much of their goods go to Germany, and how much come back, I
think the working man would have answered that question very well,
and said : " Quite true, we could use all that wool in England " —
and that is what the working man is learning — " and we would be
employed to manufacture it. " If you only put a tariff against Ger-
many, probably it would be worth while for England to buy all that
wool with that tariff against it, and the workingman is, I think, be-
ginning to think a good time would be coming for him. I agree with
Sir Joseph Ward that none of us would be in favour of protection
which would bear hardly on the working man here — an argument
frequently used, but if that argument were carried out, and the
workman had to pay a little more for some things he might be better
off.
Mr. ASQUITH: How is the wool that goes to Germany to be
got here?
Dr. JAMESON: When the manufactured wool would be cheaper
within the Empire, which, as Mr. Deakin said, was a large factor,
then probably it would not pay Germany to manufacture quite so
much, and we would have a little more manufacturing than Germany,
and therefore employ more people.
Mr. ASQUITH: My question was put with another object. Does
wool come within the subject matter as to which you think preference
ought to be given?
Dr. JAMESON : As a matter of fact, wool at present comes in
free.
Mr. ASQUITH : I kno<v.
Dr. JAMESON: I take it on the secondary subject of manufac-
ture. Wool is a raw material, and we do not want to put anything
on it but if you do not allow throughout the Empire the manufac-
tured article from another country which gets wool cheap to come in
on the same terms, probably the British will have the bigger market
and bigger demand for wool, and can pay more for the wool.
Mr. ASQTTITH: You represent Cape Colony, n country which
exports no food to thi.<! country, and I am thinking in my own mind
how we are to give a preference to South Africa.
Dr. JAMESON: I will come to that presently.
Mr. ASQUITH : I thought it might be pertinent to this question
of wool.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
293
Trade.
(Mr.
Asqnith.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Dr. JAMESOX : We are rather, in South Africa, in the position Ninth Day.
of doing a great good and expecting to get very little back, but we '^'loo^*^'
expect to grow, as Sir Joseph Ward says sympathetically just now, -
in South Africa. We do expect to be federated. We do expect to have Pr^erential
other things to export besides the few articles that we now export. I
will name presently the exports. Even without federation, at the
present moment I have been making arrangements, while I have been
in England, for a very large amount of maize to be brought over to
this country where we can get a market. For us it is a very large
amount. I was making arrangements for 80,000 tons for one season
from a portion of Cape Colony to come here. In the future we do
expect greatly to benefit from a preference which now is only benefit-
ing the larger producers.
Jfr. ASQUITH: I do not want to interrupt your argument, but
perhaps you wiU teU us presently what the things are you export.
Dr. JAiTESON : My argument was simply tp try and influence
the Government as much as I could. As Sir Joseph Ward said, we
have three Ministers of the British Goverment here, and I am trying
to impress upon them as far as I possibly can, that we are asking and
pressing all we can to get something from them and as a kind of in-
ducement ,1 was saying that opinion is changing a little and we hope
they will change a little hit further forward in the next two days;
and then it will give us a beginning on this preferential question.
With regard to South Africa, we certainly cannot get much bene-
fit at the present moment. There are some things we can get benefit
from. The two main things are wine and tobacco. You say that is
so small it does not matter, but take the wine alone; supposing we
return to the old conditions before 1862, it woiild be a very great
benefit to South Africa. In 1862 the United Kingdom were estab-
lishing Free Trade, and at the same time wanted a market for their
goods, and so they reduced the tariff on French wines to the level of
the Cape wines. The French wines were better then. I do not think
they are now. We think we are going to produce as good wines.
Mr. ASQUITH : Tou are going to.
Dr. JAMESON : I think we do now, but we are going to do better.
At that time the tariff came down. For a little Colony like the Cape
at that time, 50 years ago, to get 1.30.000/. a year for its wine was a
very considerable item, but it came down to 2s. 9rf. on French wines,
which was the duty on Cape wine at the time, and in a few years it
was down to 80,000Z. ; at present it is nothing at all. We have de-
veloped enormously since that, and are producing infinitely better
wine, and if we get a preference on Cape wine it would give an
enormous impetus to one of our most important interests in Cape
Colony. I may say, when I came into office at the Cape, I sent-a long
and elaborate memorandum to the then Government, and they gave
me the usual sympathy, but they gave me nothing else. We know
Governments are not all the same, and we still hope that because the
former Government refused it that is no reason why the present
Government should, and we may get something.
Mr. ASQUITH: Do you know any British Government which
gives a preference to any form of alcohol?
Mr. DEAKIN: We give it to South Africa.
Mr. ASQUITH : I do not know about that. Sir Wilfrid Laurier
aM COLOM.IL COyFERE^^CE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Da T. ,Joes not, Australia is not supposed to, and South Africa does not, so
1907. ' *^^^ '® '"^ entirely new departure in preference referring to alcohol.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : We do not.
Preferential
Trade. D,-. .TAMESOX: In South Africa we give a certain amount of
(Mr. preference. We charge your whisky from here 21s., and an excise on
^'^'" our own article of only 6s. We are quite prepared to modify that.
Mr. ASQUITH: That is giving a preference to yourself.
Dr. JAMESON : Exactly. You generally begin at home and then
extend to others afterwards.
Mr. DEAKIN : I think in our treaty with you we do give a pre-
ference to alcohol.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We do, I think, in reference to wines.
Mr. ASQUITH: As between yourselves?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, with South Africa; not spirits but
wine.
Dr. SMARTT : Canada gives a preference on wine al.so, I think.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEX : Xo.
Dr. JAMESON : For brandy the ordinary rate of duty in Aus-
tralia is 14s. per gallon, and the rate to colonies under the South
African Customs Union is 10s. 3d. to 13s. per gallon. I believe the
proposition before the Conference is — I know it is the proposition of
Canada — that we give, irrespective of the United Kingdom giving
anything at all, a certain preference, but when the United Kingdom
reciprocates, then we are all prepared to come forward and give more.
Paragraph 2 of the Cape Resolution is " The Conference, while ad-
" heriug to the principle of preferential treatment of the products
" and manufactures of the United Kingdom, desires to impress upon
" His Majesty's Government the opinion that the continuance of such
"preferential treatment to the producers and manufacturers of Great
" Britian is largely dependent upon the granting of some reciprocal
" privileges to British Colonies." I wish to say at once, and em-
phatically, that there is no question of a threat there at all. AVIiat
we are doing is giving a warning from our own experience. I am
giving m.v experience that I have had at the Cape that the majority
as evidenced by the Customs Union, are in favour of preference. I
know that in my Cape Parliament there is a minority who were not
in favour of it, and in fact spoke against it, but at the same time
that minority l)r"ught forward an amendment saying that no pre-
ference should be given unless there was reciprocity. Therefore, I
am justitied in saying that the whole Colony, with any reciprocity
whatever from the United Kingdom, would be unanimously in
favour of preference.
Mr. DEAKIN : We have the same minority.
Dr. JAMESON: I only wanted to emphasise that it was not a
threat at all, but only that we might not be able to hold things to-
gether, that the minority might become a majority later on, and we,
who believe that this is one of the most important links between the
various portions of the Empire, are very auxiiuis to say that our
various Colonies are absolutely in favour of preference if we have a
r(!cipri)city, however snnill. I was alarmed, if Sir Wilfrid Laurier
will allow me to say so, to .see that in the Camidian Parliauient there
is an intermediate tariff proposed. 1 supp.isr that uieiuis there is a
COLOMAL COyFERESCE, 1907
295
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
preferential tariff and a minimum. .1 suppose the probability is Ninth Day.
•with that intermediate tariff the minimum would he aceepted and the '**|(^^^'
preference would probably po to other nations, or nations within the -
Trade.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
Empire. Preference. I presume, would remain, but suppose a treaty I'referential
at the intermediate tariff was made, say, with the T'nited States for
a term of years.
Sir WILFRID LAITIIER: Do you think there is any proba-
bility of that ?
Dr. JAMESOX : I do not know at all. but supposing it was with
France, Germany, Italy, or anywhere. Supposing a treaty was made
on an intermediate tariff, and supposing the Imperial Government
gave a preference to Canada, then Canada probably would carry out
further preference to Great Britain, but that further preference
would surely be bound by this intermediate tariff, because this inter-
mediate tariff. I suppose, would be made on the present preference to
Great Britain. So really the further preference would be minimised.
The point is when once you begin to make treaties outside there is
710 saying how far they go. When you once get commercial treaties
and commercial sympathy, we generally find political sympathy fol-
lows. That is the last and the strongest argument. We hope the
Imperial Government will see their way to help us in an experiment,
at all events, of the smallest reciprocal preference to the various
portions of the Empire.
Mr. ASQUITH : Is wine the only thing you mention ?
Dr. JAMESOX: Tobaco, ,1 might mention, too, and sugar.
Mr, ASQUITH: What about tobacco?
Dr. JAMESOX: I believe your duty on tobacco is 3s. at the pre-
sent moment. Certainly it would be a great boon to us if we had a
shilling preference on that, because in the Cape Colony we grow a
very large amount of tobacco. In the Transvaal, proportionately,
they grow still more and better. In Rhodesia, I believe, they are
going to grow still more, and still better than even the Transvaal,
because the land in Rhodesia has been proved up to now to be
extremely good land for the growing of the highest class of Turkish
and Egyptian tobacco. Supposing we get one shilling relief, I dare-
say the shilling would come off the excise in Ireland, and we would
have all the Irish portion of the Government to help us with that.
Mr. ASQUITH: They are just starting a tobacco industry in
Ireland, and there is a Bill to remove the prohibition on cultivation
before the House of Commons.
Dr. JAMESOX: It does not come into force for a long time*
Mr. ASQUITH: X'ext year.
Dr. SMARTT : A rebate of one shilling. I think the Irish would
pay 2s. and the ordinary people 3s., or an excise of 2s., against the
other excise of 3s.
Mr. ASQUITH: That applies only to what is a mere experiment,
Mr. DEAKIX : That is all we want.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: We only want the experiment.
ASQUITH: Xo, this is an experiment conducted over 100
Mr
acres.
Dr.
instead of a 3s. duty.
SMARTT : But the experiment is on the basis of a 2s. duty
Smartt.)
296 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
^^'^*'l,°^^- 3Ir. ASQUITH: As I say, it is only extended to 100 acres of
1st May, , 1
390-. land.
Preferential ^^' SMAETT : But on the basis of a 2s. duty instead of a 3s.
Trade. duty.
(P'^Y ^ ^r. ASQTJITH : We might as well not have imposed any duty at
all. Practically the duty did not enter into it at all, but it was
simply to see whether or not, as a matter of experiment, tobacco
could be grown in Ireland, and over those 100 acres we allowed them
to experiment practically free of duty.
Mr. SMAETT : But I understood that the duty collected by the
State or Excise on the product, whatever it may be, will be collected
at 2s., or a rebate of Is. will be given.
Mr. ASQUITH: On that 100 acres— nothing else.
Dr. SMAETT: But on that 100 acres?
Mr. ASQUITH: Yes.
Dr. SMAETT : It is practically a rebate.
Mr. ASQUITH: It might have been made duty free. It was a
mere experiment to see whether tobacco could be grown in Ireland,
and we allowed them to have 100 acres for the purpose, but that is
not going to regulate the future growth of tobacco in Ireland. When
they grow tobacco on a practical scale they will pay strictly the same
as other people. There is no preference of any kind.
Mr. F. E. MOOE : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I have not very
much to say, as I think the ground has been very well covered by the
previous speakers as regards the Colonial view, and the points that
have been adduced by Mr. Deakin and Sir Joseph Ward have fairly
stated the position.
I only want to say a few words about the arguments adduced by
Mr. Deakin with respect to the condition of things as regards our
opponents in difFerent parts of the world. While England and the
Colonies have in the past been giving equal treatment, these nations
have built around them impregnable tariff walls, and thus enjoyed
free trade in a double condition — having the whole of their popula-
tion and also the population of England and of India for their trade,
which, in my humble opinion, must give our competitors an enor-
mous advantage. If there is one thing that has been found to be
unquestionally accurate it is that in modern methods the great
volume of production is the cheapest method for such production.
Having those large markets, our competitors must to that extent have
a far greater advantage as against our limited population represented
by these islands and the other countries that happen to be within
our control or purview here.
J wish to point out also that this is going on in a more insidious
and perhaps more mischievous way against us all than is at present
realised. Your competitors are to-day dealing with raw materials at
the fountain heads, and, as has been already pointed out, they are
diverting from you here those raw materials for their own ends to
work them up, and in working them up to pay their own people the
wages for the manufactured articles which will eventually come dir-
ectly into competition with you here and also in the Colonies. It
has been pointed out that a large amount of wool has been diverted
from Australia directly to your strongest competitors. This is going
on in South Africa. Mr. Asquith pointedly asked my colleague, Dr.
COLOMAL COXFERENCE, 1907 297
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Jameson, how this was aflFecting the position of preference. By Ninth Day.
subsidies as regards steamers, by rebates on State railways in those ^^^q^*^'
countries, force is being employed against you to direct that raw L
material from your manufactures here. That is having a very serious ^'referential
effect lis regards your petting that commodity in sufficient quantities .. '^^.''■p
to keep you going as against that competition. I do hope that in Moor!)
talking over preference we are not going to limit it only to tariff
reform, but we are goiug to embrace all the different links that con-
nect us in our industrial progress throughout the whole process of
such methods. The cheapening of your shipping freights, as has been
pointed out by Sir .Jos-ph Ward, is a very great advantage. The
rapidity by which the intercommunication is to be brought about
is not to be calculated, but on the top of all that, if we are to have
these railway rates so adjusted as to further give the advantage to
those who are competing against you, you have to be very much alive
to see how far such insidious methods are leading you and your
industries to a very serious position. We realise it in South Africa,
because we have had there, and we unfortunately have now, a tre-
mendous trouble as regards these railway rates, and they have just as
important a bearing on the whole problem as the shipping rates and
other elements that lead to the progress of our industries.
I have had brought to my notice by the shipping people in South
Africa this condition of things, and I have been asked to call atten-
tion to it at this Conference. It is very difficult to ascertain what
amount of advantage is being given to some of your competitors
in this direction. I am unable to give you in any way the slightest
indication as to that, but surely with your means of getting infor-
mation you should be alive to this condition of things. We, in South
Africa, I am also informed, are likely to have one of the most power-
ful lines of steamers operating in these markets. This is a recent
development, and it is going to have \inder present circumstances, I
believe, a very profound effect as regards the trade conditions of that
country.
Wlien we talk of preference I wish all the different elements to
be taken into consideration. It covers the whole ground, and wher-
ever we can assist each other by that means we are going to promote
to that extent our mutural interests. Perhaps it is rather impudent
of me to say that I am neither a Free Trader nor a Protectionist.
I think these past shibboleths have been perhaps mischievous in
crystallising us to one or other set of ideas. I believe in a discrim-
inating scientific tariff which is so adjusted as to meet our interests
to the utmost without committing ourselves either to one or the
other policy. We in South Africa have as many articles on our free
list as we have on our protected one. That tariff, although it is not
a perfect tariff — and we can never hope to have a perfect tariff, be-
cause a tariff, like a growing tree, is ever throwing out fresh branches
and ever having fresh requirements to adjust itself to a growing in-
dustry— I say we must always be adjusting and re-adjusting our tariff
to meet the changing conditions of our various industries, but we do
have on that list a number of lines free, as many as are protected.
These are made free to promote our various industries. You here
have lost many of your industries, I have been informed. I may have
perhaps the impudence to say that it was because of your Free Trade
policy.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: What industries have we lost?
298 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 19fn
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. Mr. F. E. MOOK : I think glass.
1st itfftV
1907.'' Mr. ASQUITH: No, we have not lost it at all.
Preferential ^^- J-^^ESOI^: There is not much left.
Trade. -^j^ p- j. ^xOOR: Sugar refinery; silk.
^Georgi?f'^ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No; I had a deputation of silk manu-
facturers before me last week, and one of them protested most
strongly against the idea that it was a dying industry.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Clock-making is another.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I had a deputation from them, also, not
long ago.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: They still exist in a languishing condition.
However, if in these cases you had some kind of protection for these
lines, which would not after all have increased the cost of living to
your people, but would ou the other hand have found employment for
them — I say, had that been the case then to that extent, if your in-
dustries suffered at all — and I think Mr. Chamberlain did show it
very strongly in his campaign
Mr. ASQUITH: .1 do not quite agree with him.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Xor did the nation quite agree with
him.
:Mr. F. R. MOOR: I say, had they suffered then to that extent,
it might have been remedied by giving relief in those directions.
You have already a tariff on wine, sugar, tobacco, and tea. You
are taxing your people. I will take tobacco as one line, and we ask
you to give relief to your people to the extent of giving us preference
on that tariff, say, on tobacco. You would be helping us to build
up a new industry in South Africa which is a very promising one,
and from which I believe you can get supplies as good as any in the
world. At the same time you would be doing your people a benefit by
reducing taxation in their favour, which I believe is in the direction
of your Free Trade policy.
However, it will be interesting to know what objections you can
have to making an experiment in that direction as regards your own
Colonies, and in the interests of .vour own consumers by reducing
taxation. If nothing comes of this at all the discussion we have had
here is going to be of value to us all. inasmuch as it is going to make
us all think, and having got the people of these different Colonies to
think over these large questions, and the people of these islands to
think over these questions, having got to that condition, I say it will
do good, inasmuch as it will bring before us all the chance of mov-
ing in the direction we hope for, or of England being able to prove
to her Colonics that they are asking for an impossible concession.
The movement has grown, and. I believe, is growing. Certainly with
us it lias grown in South Africa, and we to-da.v are giving preference
to you here. There is a large section of our people wlio are still
more or less not heartily with us, but I believe the nuijority are
strongl.v in favour of continuing a preference to the Motlierlaiul
without price or without terms. We also have given reciprocity to
our sister States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and I think
South Africa to-day is really in the forefront of the movement.
CHAIRMAN': It is obvious that we cannot finish this <liseu9sion
to-day. and as we Inivo reached the liour of adjournment I suppose
Trade.
(Chairman.)
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 299
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
it would be convenient now to adjourn. May I make one observation ? Ninth Day.
I thoug-ht we had two more days this week, but I find that some ''''1907*^'
members of the Conference have engrajrements on Saturday, and
therefore to-morrow is our only day. I think it is very desirable that I'referential
we should linish this subject now before the Conference this week, if
it is at all possible to do so, and I suggest that we might meet, there-
fore, at half-past ten to-morrow morning, and perhaps it might even
be possible to have in reserve a sitting in the afternoon, if ilr. Lloyd
George could manage to attend.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : Yes, I could be here. Does Mr. Deakin
propose opening on the question of treaties, or does he propose to
leave it for separate treatment ?
Mr. DEAKIN : It was suggested at the beginning that we should
leave that for separate treatment. It is an independent question.
CHAIRMAN: Yes, it is.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I quite agree.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : I have one more word, and that is, that as
regards the freights on steamers with respect to goods and other com-
modities, my argument would be just as strong in the direction of
passenger fares. Here, by mutual work and mutual assistance, I
think we can do a vast amount of good, not only to you but to the
Colonies, by so adjusting these passenger fares as to direct the emi-
gration from these islands to the various Colonies under the flag. It
should be as easy, though not quite so cheap, certainly, to convey
people from these shores to these different possessions as for people
to go from one end of Englanil to the other. This can be done only
by the co-operation of the Colonial Governments, together with the
Imperial Government, in connection with the shipping that plays
such an important part in all our interests. I do hope that this ques-
tion will not be lost sight of when your secretariat is established,
so that they may take the matter up and focus it before public
opinion.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : T do not understand exactly what is
meant by diilerent treatment with regard to the question of treaties,
which seems to be absolutely germane to this question.
CHAIRMAN: Only that it falls to the Board of Trade rather
than to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I mean so far as the discussion is
concerned.
Mr. DEAKIN : It is undoubtedly bound up with the discussion
of the whole issue, but it was suggested by the Chairman that it
might be as well to deal with the purely fiscal question first, and then
take the argument as to the treaties.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: But it seems to me it could not be
separated. I understood we were to hear Mr. Asquith first, and then
Mr. Lloyd George.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It is purely the Australian proposal with
regard to British ships and white labour that interferes with treaties,
but I rather gathered from Mr. Deakin's speech that he did not con-
sider that an essential part of his proposals.
Mr. DEAKIN: Not to that particular proposal, but I regard it as
important to have our relation to all treaties determined, and wish
300 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Ninth Day. to submit the considerations which have led my coUea^e, the At-
1907*'^' torney-General, to contend that we are at present bound by any of
the treaties referred to.
Trade. M!r. LLOYD GEORGE: That is a very serious proposition.
(Mr. Sir WILFEJD LAUEIER: It is difficult to establish, but at the
®^ '" same time there is no question that it is of more importance to hear
that than to hear the condition of the treaties.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not think it interferes at all with
Canada, but it does interfere with the Australian proposals very
seriously.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : But it is germane to the whole ques-
tion, and we are discussing it now. I do not know where such pro-
posals would land us.
Mr. DEAKIN: But it is not necessary to intermingle the argu-
ment about treaties with that upon fiscal proposals. The intention
was to separate the arguments, and leave Treaty powers last.
Mr. ASQUITH: I should hope we might conclude what you call
the general fiscal arg^ument by lunch time to-morrow.
CHAIRMAN: And then go on with the rest in the afternoon.
Mr. ASQUITH: Sir William Lyne wishes to say something.
Mr. DEAK.TN: He will look at what I have said, so as not to
repeat anything.
Mr. ASQUITH: Sir J. L. Mackay wishes to say something, and
he represents India.
Mr. DEAKIN : Not in the sense in which we represent our
countries. He represents the British Government.
Mr. ASQUITH: He speaks for the Secretary of State.
Adjourned to to-morrow at half-past 10 o'clock.
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1901 301
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
1907.
TENTH DAT. Tenth Day.
2nd May,
Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Thursday, 2nd May 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakest, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
Newfoundland.
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Sec-
retary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., KC.LE., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G.,
Joint Secretaries.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also present:
The Right Honourable John Morley', O.M., M.P., Secretary of
State for India.
The Right Honourable H. H. Asquith, M.P., Chancellor of the
Exchequer.
The Right Honourable D. Lloyd George, M.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
302 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. IQOff
'^2nd'Ma^"^' ^^' ^' K^'^'<^'*'^^'' ^■^- Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
"i90/^^' ^I""- H. E. Kearlev, M.P., Parliamentary Secretary to the Board
of Trade.
Sir E. W. Hamilton, G.C.B., K.C.V.O., Permanent Financial
Secretary to the Treasury.
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, C.B., Permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fox, C.B.. Comptroller-General of the Commer-
cial, Statistical, and Labour Department of the Board of
Trade.
Mr. J. W. HoLDERNESS. C.S.I., of the India Office.
Mr. G. J. Stanley, C.M.G.. of the Board of Trade.
CHAIRMAX : Gentlemen, while we are waiting for the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, may I take the opportunity of mentioning the
agenda for next week. I understand that we cannot sit again after
to-day this week, so that we have to consider what da.vs are available
to finish the proceedings of the Conference, as I understand we must,
somewhere about the middle of next week. There are two adjourned
discussions ; one Naval Defence, and the other Naturalization.
With regard to Naval Defence, I understand from the First Lord of
the Admiralty that he has had a discussion with various members of
the Conference, but he does not seem to be quite clear whether they
wish to submit to him further proposals before the matter comes be-
fore the Conference again. He suggested that we might take this-
question on Wednesday.
Witli regard to Naturalization. I understood when we adjourned
that some members of the Conference wished to put on record their
views with regard to that subject, but I do not suppose there is any
intention of taking any definite decision on the matter at these meet-
ings. Therefore that subject might be taken if it suited the Home
Secretary (which I will ascertain) either on Monday or Tuesday.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : It will not take very long so far as I am
concerned.
CHAIRMAN: I think Sir Wilfrid Laurior wishes to speak upon
it.
Sir WILFRID LATJRIER : I have very few words to say upon it.
CHAIRMAN : Then there are certain other questions mentioned
on the agenda paper with regard to patents, trade statistics, company
law, the metric system and reciprocity of treaties, all of which I
think would not take any great length of time, and some of them at
any rate fall to be dealt with, under the new procixlure of our
orgiinisatinii, liv action siibseq\ient to the Conference. I suppose
the Conference woiild wish, on all of these questions, to have oppor-
tunit.v of recording an opinion.
Sir WII.FRII) I.AT'HIKU: None of these questions so<'m very
contentious.
CHAIRMAN : None, so far as I know.
Sir .TOSEPII WARD: I suggest you might group those matters
together. The question regarding the metric system, in view of the
interview we had witli the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I should
think could be disposed of in 10 minutes; and we might, if they
are all grouped together, finish nil tliese questions in one morning.
VOLOSIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 30S
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: There are one or two matters I asked for infor- Tenth Day.
mation about as to the commercial treaties which have been con- "19^*^'
eluded.
CHAIRMAX : Tliat point comes really subsequent to this dis- Ward.f
cussion. Mr. Lloyd George is prepared for that.
Mr. DEAKIX : Then there is the question which is now asso-
ciated with that of the Secretariat, but was started independently of
it, with reference to the possible exchange of officials between the
Colonial Office and the several departments of the Empire.
CHAIRilAX: That also we have on the list. But I wanted to
ascertain from the members of the Conference what days next week
are at our disposal.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : So far as I am concerned I think we
are ready every day.
CHAIRilAX : Up to Thursday.
Mr. DEAIvIN: And further if necessary.
CHAIRliLAN : Some of the members are going to leave on
Thursday.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am due in Edinburgh on Friday morn-
ing.
CHAIRMAN : I think we probably can arrange for the first
four days of next week to e.xhaust the matters still left to be dis-
cussed. At any rate I will arrange on that footing that we will take
either Naturalization or other subjects on Monday, and some of the
other subjects on Tuesday, and the Admiralty subject on Wednes-
day.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Then we sit on Monday. Tuesday,
Wednesday, and Thursday.
CHAIRMAX: Yes. Perhaps, as the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer has not yet arrived we might hear the representative of India,
if the Conference have no objection.
PREFERENTIAL TRADE.
Sir JAMES ^lACKAY : Lord Elgin and gentlemen. Ever since Preferential
the proposal that Great Britain should impose a general import tariff Trade,
and should admit without taxation, or at a lower rate of duty, im-
ports from British Dominions so as to establish what has come to be
described as " Preference," those who are responsible for the Gov-
ernment of India, with which this country carries on a very large
and important trade, have given the subject serious and constant
consideration. As in duty bound, they have looked at the question
from an Indian point of view; but they have considered it no less
from a wider and Imperial aspect. The interests of India are indis-
solubly bound up with the interests, not only of Great Britain, but
also with those of His Majesty's other Dominions beyond the Seas,
and it may be safely asserted that the interests of Great Britain, as
well as those of most of the over-sea Dominions, owing to the intri-
cate and inter-dependent web of commerce, are equally bound up
with the prosperity and interests of India. It is a matter of deep
regret to those responsible for the Government of India that they
should find themselves at variance on this most important question
with the distinguished statesmen who represent Canada, Australia,
304 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. New Zealand, and South Africa, and who have stated their case, if
"°1907*^' ^ ™^^ ®^^ ®°' "'ith an earnestness and an eloquence befitting that high
patriotism and love of country which inspire their proposals.
^'^T^'^d"'^^^ Under the existing fiscal system, India enjoys a highly advanta-
,o- T-_.. geous position. Since the establishment of the gold standard in India
XIackay.) securing a stable rate of exchange, a measure initiated by Lord
Lansdowne's Government in 1S9.3, and brought to fruition by you,
my Lord, during your term of oiEce as Viceroy, the finances of
India have been in a satisfactory condition. The trade and com-
merce of the country have been prosperous and flourishing, and have
been fully equal to the strain of providing the means of remitting
the large amount annually required to discharge both her public and
private sterling obligations. There is no sign that this prosperity
is insecure, nor is any important trade or industry seriously men-
aced by the restrictive tariffs of foreign countries.
The rapid growth of the external trade of India can be shown by
a few figures. Jn 1896-97 the total value of the sea-borne trade
imerchandise and treasure) was 132,000,000/. In 1905-6 it was
214,000,000/. sterling. This is an increase of 66 per cent, in 10
years. Taking merchandise only, in 1896-97 the imports were 47,-
000,000Z. sterling, and exports 66,000,000Z. In 1905-6 the imports
were 69,000,000?. and the exports 105,000.000/. sterling.- Thus im-
ports increased by 4 per cent, and exports by 60 per cent, in 10
years. A very good share in the increased trade of India has been
enjoyed by this country. The value of British imports into India in
that period has increased by nearly 40 per cent. They still repre-
sent 66 per cent, of the total imports of India. A remarkable feature
of the Indian figures is the growth of the exports to foreign coun-
tries. Some of the best customers of India are tlie protected coun-
tries of Europe. Without the markets which they supply, it is very
doubtful whether India could dispose of the particular commodities
which she is able to produce.
Mr. DEAKIN: Raw materials?
Sir JAMES MACKAT: Mostly. Further particulars on this
point are given in the India Office Memorandum on " Preferential
Tariffs in their application to India," which is being submitted to the
Conference. It seems, therefore, to be clear that the interests of
India call for no change in the direction under discussion. It is
equally clear that any change materially affecting the present cir-
cumstances of Indian trade might be fraught with danger. The
maintenance of an excess of exports over imports sufficient to dis-
charge her sterling obligations is an essential requirement for India.
It is a fact of no small importance that the purchasing power of
India in British markets, and her ability to discharge her sterling
obligations, are largely dependent on her trade with foreign coun--
tries. This is brought out in an analysis of the import and export
figures, which shows that, while the British Empire sells to India
goods to the value of 50.000,000/. sterling, it buys from India goods
to the value of 29t millions only, and that, while foreign countries
sell to India only 18,000,000/. sterling worth of goods, they buy from
India goods to the value of no less than 66,000,000/. sterling. It is
obviously, gentlemen, the interest of .India to retain the goodwill of
our foreign customers.
The risk of damage to Indian trade from retaliation by foreigri
countries cannot be regarded as imaginary, notwithstanding the fact
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 305
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
that a large proportion of Indian exports consists of raw materials Tenth Day.
useful to these countries in their industries. It has indeed been sug- -^^^^^'
gested that India is in a strong defensive position, as in the event '_
of a war of tariffs slic could re-sort to a discriminating export duty Preferential
on certain classes of raw material. But apart from the economic Trade,
objections to which such duties are open, especially as a feature in a ^^/ James
Bcheme of preferential tariffs primarily designed for the encourage-
ment of exports, the practical diiEculties in the way of the enforce-
ment of such duties so that they should operate by way of penalty
against a particular country, would be insuperable. For the country
thus penalised might obtain its supplies through the medium of
British or of other foreign ports, instead of direct from India, and
it would be impossible to prevent evasion of the duties in this man'
ner. Besides, it is not clear that India enjoys an effective monopoly
in any large number of articles that are essential to the existence of
foreign industries. Even with regard to certain articles that are
■essential to the existence of foreign industries — even with regard to
certain articles, such as raw jute, oilseed, lac, teak wood, myro-bal-
flams, and mohair, in respect of which it might be said that such a
monopoly exists, it must be borne in mind that a substantial in-
crease in price produced by an export tariff might lead, sooner or
later, to the production of those articles in other countries, to the
discovery of substitutes for them, or to a lessened demand. In any
of those eventualities, the export trade of India would be seriously
affected.
On the question as to whether India would avoid risk by remain-
ing otitside preferential arrangements adopted for the rest of the
British Empire, it might be urged on the one hand that foreign coun-
tries would recognize the attitude of India, and in the case of adopt-
ing measures of retaliation against the British Empire would ex-
•empt articles of Indian export from their scope. On the other hand,
it might be said that India could not be certain of obtaining such on
exemption, inasmuch as foreign countries might impose retaliating
■duties on Indian articles — and Mr. Deakin gave us an example of
this the other day — with the object of attacking Great Britain by
injuring Indian trade. Furthermore, if isolated from the rest of the
Empire, India might be hold to have lorfeited any right to be sup-
ported against attacks made on her trade; whereas an essential con-
dition of any general preferential scheme would doubtless be that
the Empire would act as a united whole in any tariff war. and that
any one member who might be attacked would be entitled to support
from all the other members. That, I take it, gentlemen, is your idea.
Mr. Deakin has referred to an incident which occurred with France
a few years ago in regard to Indian coffee, and to another which oc-
curred a little later with Russia in regard to Indian tea. The facts
are as follows: — France had a fiscal dispute with Brazil. To put
pressure on Brazil a double scale of duty on coffee, and some other
kinds of Colonial produce, was introduced into the French tariff, and
the higher scale was made applicable to countries which were not
specially admitted to the lower scale. Indian coffee imported into
France thus, quite incidentally, became subject to a higher duty. We
ascertained that France had no grievance whatever against India,
and did not desire to penalise Indian coffee, and was prepared to
admit it and other Indian Colonial products to the mininiimi tariff, in
return for a purely nominal, or what might be termed in China, a
^' face-saving " concession. This concession eventually took the form
.J.S — 20
306 COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. of the lowering of the Indian import duties, not for France alone, be
2iid May, it observed, but for the whole world, on two absolutely insignificant
L articles — vinegar and green copperas. No hint was thrown out in
Preferential the course of negotiations with France that India might possibly re-
Tradt. g^j.^^ ^^ retaliation. Lord Curzon's Government, it is true, suggested
Mackay ^^ that the possibility of retaliatory measures should be mentioned,
but His Majesty's Government — and this was a few years ago — de-
clined to adopt the suggestion. They doubted its expediency, and
they felt sure that when France had settled her dispute with Brazil,
she would take steps to remove India's grievance. The second inci-
dent referred to by Mr. Deakin arose out of the action of the Brit"
ish Government in excluding Russian sugar against bounty-fed
sugars, in accordance with the Brussels Sugar Convention. The
Eiissian Government protested against this exclusion as being an
infraction of the " inost favoured nation " treatment, and followed
its protest by placing a surtax on Indian and Ceylon teas entering
Russia by Europe, or the Black Sea route. His Majesty's Govern-
ment decided not to retaliate on behalf of Ceylon, and not to au-
thorise retaliation by India. The surtax is still in force, but it
has had, apparently, not very much effect on the export to Russia
of Indian and Ceylon teas, which has increased not inconsiderably
during the last few years, as the following figures will show. The
Ceylon export, which was 4,000,000 lbs. in 1899, was 11,000,000 lbs.
in 1905. The Jndian export, which was 1,500,000 lbs. in 1901-02, was
no less than 10,000,000 lbs. in 1905-06. The surtax has evidently not
destroyed the Russian taste for the best of tea.
Mr. UEAKIN: If it had, would the Government of India have
taken any action?
Sir JAMES MACKAY: We might deal with that if it arises;
but it has not arisen so far. An analysis of the export trade of
India supports the conclusion that India has practically nothing
to gain from the adoption by the Empire of a system of tariifs, dis-
criminating against the manufactured products and food stuffs of
foreign countries. In a few articles, such as coffee, indigo, rice, and
wheat, it is true that some slight gain is possible if these articles
were admitted to the United Kingdom on better terms than the
same articles from foreign countries, but the gain would be tri-
fling. Tea also has been suggested as a possible article for pre-
ferential treatment. But, gentlemen, Indian and Ceylon teas have
now a secure market, as the competition of China has ceased to be
important. In a total import of 321.000.000 lbs. of tea — mark these
figures — into the United Kingdom, China is now represented by
only 13,000,000 lbs. Furthermore, in the Convention of 1902 with
China, at the request of Great Britain, the Chinese Government
bound themselves — I would like Mr. Moor to note this — to impose
an excise duty on machine-made yarn and cloth manufactured in
China, when they came to raise the import duties on the abolition
of likin, so as to deprive the duties on these goods of any protec-
tive effect.
Mr. DEAKIN: J do not know whether you are awflre of it, but
to some extent a disliiK't factor in the development of the trade in
Indian tea in Australia was, in the first instance, the deliberate
Preference given to India, as a part of the Empire against China,
ft country exterior to the Empire. In the earlier days of the Indian
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901! 307
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tea trade that was quite an influential motive in Australia; after- Tenth Day.
wards the taste for the tea became established. 2nd May,
1907.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: We are very much obliged to you for
it. It would be verj- difficult for this country to press China to ob- Preferential
serve this undertaking, if, in the English market, Chinese teas were .j.
penalised. And, gentlemen, what reason is there for diseriminat- Deakin.)
ing against China i She buys from this country no less than 17
millions' worth of goods, while the value of our purchases from her
are something less than 3 millions sterling. A reduction of the
present duty in favour of all teas imported into the United King-
dom, without discrimination, would no doubt, be of some import-
ance to the Indian trade; but that would have no connection with
a scheme of preferential tariffs. Whatever benefit might accrue to
India and Ceylon from a reduction in their favour, would be ob-
tained, to an almost equal extent, from a reduction to the same
amount made on all teas in accordance with the existing policy
of the United Kingdom of remitting taxation when no longer
required for revenue purposes. The same remark applies practically
to tobacco. The present specific duty falls heavily on Indian to-
bacco, because that is of much lower value than other tobaccos or-
dinarily consumed, the duty beini; :>. sijooif'.c cuty; but any altera-
tion in the duty on cheap Indian tobacco would be an ordinarj- ad-
justment of the tax, which could he fairly granted without any de-
parture from the present fiscal policy of the United Kingdom.
Turning now to the other aspects of the question, namely, what
advantages .India can offer to the rest of the Empire under a pre-
ferential scheme, there is no doubt that she has more to give than
she could possibly receive. ,Not only do the exports of India consist
chiefly of commodities which are not likely to receive a preference
in the tariff arrangements of the United Kingdom, but they go
for the most part to foreign countries. On the other hand, three-
fifths of the total import trade of India is the produce of the United
Kingdom, and the goods belong to classes to which a discriminat-
ing tariff could be effectively applied. It is estimated that a third
of the goods which the United Kingdom sends to India are ex-
posed to the competition of foreign countries. India, therefore, has
obviously more to give under a preferential scheme, than she can
receive under such an arrangement. But the risks — and I say
so deliberately — and sacrifices which this would involve, are greater
than India is prepared to accept.
There is another matter connected with the subject, namely,
the question as to what bearing the adoption by the United King-
dom of a scheme of preferential tariffs would have on the excise
duty which is now imposed on cotton piece goods manufactured in
India and on the exemption of cotton twist and yarn from the
customs duty levied on other classes of cotton manufactures. These
exceptional measures were adopted when, under financial stress, as
his lordship knows, the import duties were re-imposed in order to
prevent them from protecting the In>.ian cotton industry in the
smallest degree; and they were defended on the grotmd that the
policy of the British Parliament and the Government of India was
one of strict Free Trade. If that policy were modified, the matter
would assume an entirely new phase.
,It has been suggested that India might join a preferential tariff
scheme, with liberty to impose duties of a protective character
against imports from the British Empire, is accompanied by still
58— 20i 1
308 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. heavier duties against foreign imports — something the same as you
^•jg^^y* propose to have in Australia. There is no doubt that, if a prefer-
'- ential policy were adopted -wnich admitted of the establishment of
Preferential protective tariffs by Great Britain, proposals in this direction would
Trade. ^^ ^^^ forward and pressed by Indian manufacturers. They would
Macka^T '^^^^ t^® same right to protect their manufactures as the Colonies
enjoy, and it would be difficult to offer a logical opposition to such
a demand. I should like to add here, gentlemen, that a preferen-
tial arrangement clogged by a clause against ships manned by na-
tives of India, subjects of the King as we are ourselves, would be
extremely obnoxious, not only to Indian opinion, but to Indian
feeling.
Mr. DEAKIN: Is it obnoxious to Indian feeling that they
are not engaged on ships in His Majesty's Navy?
Sir JAMES MACKAY: No, I do not thinlc so.
Mr. DEAKIN: Is not the Mercantile Marine a support of the
Navy? Jt is with no intention of discriminating in the least de-
gree against Hindoos or any other people of the Empire, but solely
with a view to the development of the Mercantile Marine in con-
nection with the general sea supremacy of the Empire that our
proposition is made.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: That is rather a matter for the First
Lord of the Admiralty. He finds he has no difficulty in recruiting
for the Navy.
Mr. DEAKaN : Read Lord jJrassey and other critics.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE. There is some difficulty in the British
Mercantile Marine, but no difficulty iii finding recruits for the
Navy.
Mr. DEAIilN: But the Mercantile Marine is the support of the
Navy.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The real difficulty as regards the Mer-
cantile Marine is that sailors prefer going to the Navy; and in the
the last few years we have added about 30,000 or 40,000 sailors to
the Navy, and consequently the material we draw upon for the
British Mercantile Marine has been constantly diminishing. That
is our great difficulty.
Sir WILLIAi^r LYNE: I do not think that was thoroughly
proved at the Shipping Conference.
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE: Pardon me, nothing was said about
that at the Conference.
Sir V> ILLIAM LYNE : Yes, something was said about it.
Mr. DEAKiN : I only wish to make it clear at this stage that
it is no reflection whatever upon the Hindoos or Lascars as sail-
ors.
Sir JAMES MACKAY : I can assure you we are very glad to hear
that. It is very acceptable indeed.
It is believed by the advocates of what is known as fair trade
that this country (Great Britain), suffers severely whenever another
country from whom she buys does not in a corresponding degree
buy from her. In my humble judgment no greater delusion ever
took possession of the human mind. If this doctrine were applied
to the case of the trade between India and Gennany, India and
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907 309
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
France, and India and the United States; German.v, France and the Tenth Day.
Fnitpil States would have a serious grievance apainst India, as they ^"iq^J*^'
all take from her much more than they sell to her; b\it we hear of L
no such complaints. Preferential
Trade.
Dr. SMARTT : Do they take manufactured goods? * (Sir James
Sir JAMES ilACKAY: They take what they require. Mackay.)
Mr. F. E. MOOR: Raw materials?
Sir JAMES MACKAY: They buy what they want. The pros-
perity of a country's trade does not depend on her selling as much
to any particular country as she may buy from it. Her balances
must be adjusted in the general trade of the universe. As London
is the great clearing-house of the world for money and credit, so
India is one of the international clearing-houses for commodities.
Any measure which disturbs the natural course of her trade as it
now exists, must reflect unfavourably not on trade of India alone,
but on that of the whole of the British Empire. As Mr. Deakin
said in his opening remarks, the interchange of trade only takes
place where there is mutual advantage. The benefit cannot be
wholly on the one side or the other. To borrow a metaphor much
favoured by the Mussulman, no single country can drink up all the
water in the sea. We believe that any interference with the un-
restricted flow of trade in this country, such as would be caused
by the establishment of a general tariff, with all its concomitant
customs examinations, appraisements, delays, and expense, would
have the effect of materially diminishing the volume of the foreign
trade of those islands, and of the trade of the Empire. We believe
also that discrimination by Great Britain or India against foreign
countries who are India's best customers would be prejudicial to
India's trade. It is on these grounds that we take strong and de-
cided objection to a change in the fiscal system either of this coun-
try, or of India.
In view of the advantages derived by the Empire as a whole
from the possession of India, we suggest that any preference which
the self-governing dominions of His Majesty may, in their wisdom,
decide to grant to the Mother Country might reasonably be extended
to the produce and manufactures of India, and that Great Britain
and India should be regarded as one. I would ask Mr. Moor, if
I might say so, to remember that our great Indian dependency is a
heritage not solely of the people of these islands. It has come down
with all its responsibilities from our common forefathers to the
whole British race, and its possession and prosperity are a justi-
fiable soirrce of pride to the inhabitants, not of Great Britain alone,
but also to their brethren beyond the seas.
Mr. F. E. MOOR: Might I say with regard to that surtax by
the Russians on your tea, I did not quite catch what you said about
it. .It has not affected your trade with Russia?
Sir JA:MES MACKAY: In spite of that tax our trade with
Russia in Indian and Ceylon tea has largely increased.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Who is paying that surtax; Russia?
Sir JAilES MACKAY: The Russian consumer; although he
has to pay a little more for his tea, he has not ceased drinking either
Indian or Ceylon descriptions.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: He is drinking your tea.
310 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. ^"^ JAilES MAC KAY : He is drinking three times as much
2nd May, Ceylon tea, and about eight times as much Indian, as he did a few
'• years ago.
Preferential Dr. JAMESON: The point Mr. Moor wishes to make is that you
^ /^^ ®' need not, therefore, be frightened of retaliatory measures by foreign
Moor.) countries. There was retaliation on the part of Russia, and not-
withstanding that, they take more tea. One of your points at the
beginning of your address was that, supposing this preferential
system was adopted, India would suffer very much probably from
retaliation by foreign nations.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: One of the points in my address was
that it had been argued that India could not suffer by retaliation
from foreign countries, because in many of her exports she had a
monopoly.
Dr. JAMESON: Then I made a mistake. That it might suffer
I thought was a strong point made against our theory of preference.
If you say India would not suffer from retaliation on the part of
foreign countries, that is satisfactory.
General BOTHA : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I have listened
with great attention to all t'le arguments on this question, but J have
not been able to bring mytelf so far to acquiesce and agree with all
that has been said here. The question of preferential trade is a
matter that was handled by the Crown Colony Government in the
Transvaal, and they had a Customs Conference, but the people of
the Transvaal have never been consulted on the question of prefer-
ential trade. I myself have had no time to get a mandate from the
people of the Transvaal on the matter, and I must state that all I
can now do is to express the opinion that the resolution of 1902
should continue to stand as it does. I do not see any chance of
pressing upon the Mother Country any addition to that resolution.
The position that we take in the Transvaal, now that we have Re-
sponsible Government, is that the Mother Country ought to leave
us alone as much as possible to regulate our own affairs, and, there-
fore, it is all the more difficult for me to come here and interfere
with matters concerning the Mother Country. So far as I can
judge the situation, it appears to me that the British people made
their voice and opinion heard on this matter during the last general
election in England; and, therefore, I am only prepared to stand
by the Resolution of 1002, and not to go further. And I only want
to say this, that although no preference is given by the Mother
Ooiintry to the Trarisvaal, the bond between the Transvaal and the
Mother Country will not thereby be weakened. That is all I have
to say.
Sir ROBERT BOND : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, the views of
the Colony that I represent were set forth by me at the last Confer-
ence, and T stand in somewhat the same position in respect to the
resolutions before the Chair as the Prime Minister of Canada. The
resolution which will be found on page 36 of the Blue Book was
concurred in by me, and I shall therefore adhere to it. especially as
my Government are at the present time taking steps to see how
the principle contained therein can best be carried into effect. I
shall again support that resolution when submitted by Sir Wilfrid
Laurier as I understood from his remarks on Tuesday last it will
be. In the meantime 1 should like to express my deep appreciation
of the very able manner in which the resolutions now before the
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 311
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Chair were put forward by the Prime Minister of Australia, and Tenth Day.
to say on behalf of my government that we desire to co-operate in -nd May,
every way possible towards the establishment of a preferential trade ''
between the Colonies themselves and between the Colonies and the Preferential
United Kingdom. Trade.
( Sir Robert
Mr. ASQUITH: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, it is now my duty Bond.)
in conjunction with my right honourable friend and colleague, Mr.
Lloyd George, to state on behalf of the Imperial Government the
view which they take of the matters which have been so ably and
exhaustedly discussed around this table during the last two or three
days. Let me say, first of all. that I think two things are abundant-
ly manifest and will be gladly acknowledged by all of us. The first
'is that whatever decision, or if you please, whatever absence of
definite decision, may result from our discussions and proceedings,
nothing that has been said here, or that can be said here, can in any
way weaken our sense of Imperial unity or the desire of every one
of the great commynities represented at this table, within the limits
of its opportunities, and, so far as the interests of its population
allow, to promote that unity by every means in its power. In the
next place let me add another thing which has appeared, I think^
very clearly in the course of discussion, and that is the advantage'
of debates of this kind. Jf this Imperial Conference had produced
no other results — and ± am glad to think it is going to produce a
number of very definite and very, desirable ones — I think the mere
fact that it had assembled round this table during the course of
these three days the representatives of the great self-governing com-
munities and the Imperial Government, for a free and frank in-
terchange of opinion on matters of this kind, enabling one to realise
as we can never do until we are brought face to face in friendly
intercourse with one another, one another's points of view, and, if
we differ, to see that that difference arises not from mutual misun-
derstanding but from a clearer and fuller understanding of one
another's position, would in itself have been well worth while as a
result to be attained. I am speaking, as I am privileged to do for
the moment, on behalf of the Imperial .Government. I can assure
you, in their name, that we have derived great advantage and bene-
fit from the interesting speeches, particularly the speech of Mr.
Deakin, in which the case of preferential trade has been presented
during the course of these three days.
But, gentlemen, there is one other thing, one further point, which
emerges from the discussion, and which we may regard as common
ground between us all. Sir Wilfrid Laurier has often said, I know,
from what one ^...s read of his speeciies and of his writings — and he
was the practical pioneer of Imperial Preference — that in this mat-
ter each community of the Empire must primarily pay regard to
the interests of its own members, and I was very glad to hear that
statement reiterated with great emphasis and explicitness by Mr.
Deakin more than once in the course of his speech. There we are
all agreed. We desire, as I said a moment ago, within the limit
of our possibilities and opportunities to increase the sense, to enlarge
the range, and to deepen the foundations of Imperial unity. But,
particularly in these fiscal and economic matters, the primary and
governing consideration with every one of us — the first consideration
— must be how does it affect the community with which we are
more particularly connected and which we have the honour here to
represent? I believe, in saying that. I shall carry with me the
312 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190ff
Tenth Day. unanimous opinion of tlie whole Conference. Imperial unity cannot
2nd May, be effectively or enduringly promoted by ignoring local conditions^
1 interests or sentiments. As both Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Mr.
Preferential Deakin have said, nothing is permanently gained for the cause of
Trade. Imperialism, particularly in matters of this kind, unless what is
Asauitii ) Si^sii is spontaneously offered and what is received is ungrudgingly
accepted. I think again I shall have the assent of you all to
that.
Many people have endeavoured to explain in a formula or in a
phrase that which distinguishes our Empire from the other em-
pires of history, and I shall not enter into the competition. Mr.
Deakin used some admirable language in his speech which ex-
pressed completely the ideas which most of us I think have in our
mind, but we shall all agree in a general way that the special fea-
ture of the British Empire has been that it has combined, and has
succeeded in combining to a degree unknown in any other combina-
tion in history, a loyal and affectionate attachment between the
centre and the parts of the Empire, and between the various part*
tliemselves, with complete practical local independence. That is the
secret, if we may call it a secret, which we have contributed to the
history of Empire. For the first time in the history of the world
we have managed to reconcile what hitherto has been found irre-
concileable in every political combination, namely, the completest
development of local liberty and independence without impairing,
nay, rather with an enhancement of a sense of corporate unity and
attachment between the parts of the whole. If that is true, gen-
tlemen, of our Empire as a whole, of its structure, and of its found-
ations, nowhere is it truer, I think, than in this department of fiscal
policy. It is by giving, as the Mother Country has done, complete
fiscal autonomy to her Colonies— I will not say only by that, but it
is partly by that, and largely by that — that we have succeeded in
arriving at a working Imperial arrangement. We had our warnings.
We tried the opposite policy in the ISth centiiry. We tried to im-
pose our fiscal system, or at any rate to impose taxation which was
dictated from here, and not from there, on our self-governing Colon-
ies on the other side of the Atlantic, and we all know the result.
We lost them. British statesmen, to whatever political party they
belong, have never forgotten that lesson, and during the whole of
the Empire building and Empire developing which went on during
the 19th century, when every one of the great Colonies whom I
see represented round this table one after another received the grant
of self-government, our statesmen of all parties were wise enough
to recognise that unless they gave to those communities complete
fiscal independence, they were giving them a boon which, iu the
long run, was not worth having, and instead of laying the founda-
tions of a solid and durable Empire, they were simply sowing the
seeds of future discord and possible dismemberment.
The Colonies, every one of them — your presence here to-day,
and the statements and arguments we have heard during the last
few days are sufficient to prove it — have used that fiscal autonomy
in its fullest possible sense. They have adopted, practically all of
them, a system which goes by the name of Protection. It is not for
us to criticise that. We do not pretend to criticise it. Anybody
who thinks the British flovernmont or any party in this country
is foolish enough, and short-sighted enough, and I was going to
say impertinent enough, to preach Free Trade to other countries,.
COLONIAL COXPERENCE, 1907 313
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
and particularly to our own Colonies and Uependencies, either as an Tenth Day.
academic doctrine or a counsel of perfection, or what you please. ""4q^*-^'
entirely misunderstands the situation here. I am going to explain. L
in a moment, why it is that we consider the maintenance of Free Preferential
Trade essential in this country to our own special interests. But ,^^'
do not let anybody here go away with the idea that we are seeking in AsauiVh )
anyway as propagandists or missionaries, or still less, as an Imperial
power, to press the doctrine of Free Trade on the members of our
own Empire. We are not; and the proof of that is, as I said, that
the various Colonies have used their fiscal independence, which waa
rightly and wisely granted, to build up tariflF walls, not only against
foreign countries, but against the Mother Country also. At this
moment in the Commonwealth of Australia itself, British goods
cannot get in upon any more favourable terms than goods which
come from any otner Power. I say again, we do not complain of
that. We do not ask you to alter that. You must be guided in a
matter of that kind by what you believe to be the interests of your
own fellow citizens in the communities to which you belong, and if
you conceive, as you do conceive, that in the long run, the social
and economic arguments in favour of fostering the growth and de-
velopment of your native industries by means of protective tariff
proves to be the policy most consistent with the special conditions,
and with the dominating interests of your own communities, not one
word — I will not say of remonstrance, because remonstrance would
be a ridiculous thing to speak of — but not one word of criticism
will you hear from those representing the Imi)erial Government.
Even now — I call attention to it again, not as a matter of com-
plaint, but as simply a matter of fact — in these very preferential
tariffs that have been the subject of discussion during the last few
days, there is not one of them which proposes to let British manu-
factures enter into the Colonial markets to compete on level terms
with the Colonial manufacture in regard to the class of commodities
the production of which you think it your duty to encourage by
protective duties. And quite rightly, from your point of view, if
I may say so, because what is the good of protecting and fostering
the growth of native industries if at the same time you are going
to admit against them into the market the most dangerous competi-
tor in the whole world — because that is what the British manufac-
turer is.
Dr. JAMESON : We are going to admit the most dangerous
before the less dangerous, namely the foreign.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: The Americans are the most danger-
ous.
Mr. ASyUITII: You do not quite take my point, which is this,
that you are not going to admit anybody, British or foreign, to
compete on level terms in your markets in respect of the industries
which you desire to protect. You could not do it. It is a negation'
of Protection. Obviously the thing itself is self-contradictory. I
will not go into the question whether the British manufacturer willi
remain the most dangerous. I think at this moment he still is, ab
any rate, very dangerous, and you cannot have him in. You know
you cannot without abandoning Protection. Why make any disguise
about it? We do not make any, and you do not make any. So .
that you see, under the system of preference, or the mitigated form'
of Protection which it is proposed your protective tariff should now
314
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
(Mr.
Asquith.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Dav take, it is essential for your purpose in the exercise of your fiscal
2nd May, independence, and in the maintenance as you conceive it to be of
^'^^^ your economic interests, to exchide the British manufacturers to a
Preferential ^ery large extent from your markets. I say I do not make it a
Trade. matter of complaint, but I note it as a fact taken for granted by
everyone round this table.
If Tve have given, as we have given, and as I have shown, con^-
plete fiscal autonomy to our Colonies, and if they have made and are
making the fullest use of that independence in what they conceive
to be their own interests, let me say that we retain that autonomy
for ourselves, and I do not believe that there is a man here who will
dispute not only our right, but our duty to do so. We retain it for
ourselves, and just as you, examining the special local conditions
with which you have respectively to deal in your various communi-
ties, have come to the conclusion — rightly or wrongly, I do not say
— that is a matter we must leave to the verdict of history — that for
the proper and rapid development of those communities the adop-
tion of Protection is necessary or at any rate expedient, so we here,
having regard to the special conditions and interests of our popula-
tion, have come to the conclusion that the maintenance of Free
Trade in its fullest and widest sense, is not only expedient but
absolutely vital to our economic interests. That is not a sudden or
hastily formed opinion on the part of the British people. They
came to that conclusion 60 years ago. Someone said in the course of
the discussion yesterday, that that was in the belief that the rest
of the world would adopt the same view. Nothing of the kind.
Mr. DEAKIN: Was it not prophesied by Cobden?
Mr. ASQUITH : Mr. Cobden did, I think, at one time make such
a prophecy. Prophecies are one thing, facts are another. Prophecies
are dangerous things at all times, and are sometimes the expressions
of a hope. But at any rate that was not the ground — as anyone will
see on reading Sir Eobert Peel's speeches — upon which Sir Eobert
Peel, the author of our Free Trade system, adopted Free Trade. He
was converted to Free 'irade. Why? Not because he thought it was
a good thing for the rest of the world, but because he thought it
was an essential thing for (jreat Britain in the peculiar circumstances
of her economic conditions. That opinion formed then by Sir Robert
Peel, and followed and developed, subsequently, particularly by Mr.
Gladstone, has remained for 60 years the very root and foundation
of the fiscal policy of this country, and, gentlemen, I am bound to say
to ,vou, speaking with the same frankness which you have used in
speaking to us, in my opinion, in the opinion of His Majesty's Gov-
ernment, and in the opinion of the vast majority of the people of
these Islands, the vital necessity of Free Trade, and the maintenance
of it, for our economic interests, is far more demonstrable to-day
than it was 60 years ago. How do we stand to-day? Ix>t mo ask you
to realise what our position is: 43,000,000 of people in these two
small islands bearing on our shoulders — I do not complain of it;
it is a burden we are quite willing to sustain — the whole weight of
the debt which has been incurred in the formation and development
of this Empire, bearing also the cost — at any rate, the great bulk of
the cost — of the Imperial defence, not only of these islands but of
the whole Empire, in all its parts; 4.'?,000,000 of people in two small
islands with this burden upon their shoulders, and substantially
dependent, both for their food and for the materials for the conduct
of their industries, upon extraneous sources of supply. Those are
COLOMIL VUM'EliEyCE, 1907
315
Trade.
(Mr.
Asquith.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the dominating conditions here in Great Britain and Ireland; con- Tenth Day.
ditions which do not prevail — happily, or unhappily, whichever way 2nd May,
you like to look at it — in any one of the communities which you who "
sit around this table represent. It is those conditions which we have Preferential
to bear in our minds, and which we have constantly to keep in view
when considering whether or not we shall make this or that change
in the fiscal system of the countr.y. To what, with people so circum-
stanced as I have described, is it due that we are able to maintain,
to the extent that we have maintained it, our predominance in the
markets of the world amidst growing rivalries? We have seen the
development of great industrial communities like the United States
and Germany, and the development of yourselves in Canada and Aus-
tralia, the development on the part of our own kith and kin and
fellow subjects. How is it we have been able to maintain our posi-
tion so far as we have maintained it, and I think we have on the
whole maintained it very well? It is due to three things: in the
first place to our special productive activity as a people which still
keeps us, in many of the most important departments of production,
at the head of the world. In the second place it i>; due to the profits
which we derive from keeping open to the whole world the biggest
market which is to be found anywhere, so that London and England
are the clearing-house in which a great part of the intermediate
business, as I may call it, of the whole commercial world is done.
And it is due in the third place to the earnings of our shipping,
which does the carrying trade, as you know, for more than half the
world. Those are the means by which our wealth is maintained and
secured, and, gentlemen, they all depend in the long run, as you will
see if you reflect upon the special conditions to which I referred
a moment ago, upon our being able to maintain, imimpaired in
quantity and unenlianced in price, the food of our people and the
raw materials of our industries. Curtail the sources of supply, raise
the cost of supply, and you strike a deadly blow at the very founda-
tions of our whole industrial system. I am not going to address a
lecture to .you, as I am sure ,vou will understand, but that, in a nut-
shell, so far as I can understand it, is the economic situation in these
islands. It is not because we have any belief in abstract dogmas, or
what are called " shibboleths " — I am sorry to say I heard the word
used once or twice in the course of this discussion — it is no question
of abstract dogmas, or shibboleths, or anything of that kind. Our
Free Trade system here is based upon practical considerations. It
results from the circumstances which I have outlined to you, and so
long as those circumstances remain we cannot without treachery,
not only to our own convictions, but to what we believe to be the
true and enduring interests of our people, abandon the foundations
of that system.
Gentlemen, I said it was established 60 years ago, but that the
circumstances now seemed to us to render it even more imperatively
necessary than it was then in the interests of our people. But I
must remind .vou of this : We have recently had perhaps the most
remarkable manifestation in modern politics, and the people have
given their verdict >ipon this matter. It is just four years ago since
the movement in favour of Colonial preference — I do not like the
phrase, because I am in favour of Colonial preference as T conceive
it to be properly imderstood — by means of tariff manipulation was
started in this country. I am not going into controversial politics,
but I want to recall one or two historical facts. It was started in
316
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. this country by the statesman, Mr. Chamberlain, who presided for so
1907. many years with such distinction over the office in which we are now
sitting-, and who at that moment, I do not hesitate to say, spoke
Trade.
(Mr.
Asquith.)
"^"^TrnHc*''^^ upon Colonial matters to the people of these Islands with a degree of
prestige and authority which did not attach to any other individual
in the country. It was started by him immediately after his return
from South Africa. No political or economic campaign of our time,
I suppose, was ever initiated under more glowing auspices, and it
went on for i^^ree years, and these matters which we have heard
debated round the table — I do not for a moment deny, with much
freshness of illustration, for which I personally at any rate, as rather
an old hack in this controversy, am very grateful — were for three
years debated upon every platform and in every newspaper of Great
Britain and Ireland. I do not say it completely monopolised public
attention, but I can say, as I took some little part in it, that it was
certainly in point of public interest the dominating topic during
those three years. I myself rarely spoke upon any other subject, and
I am af»aid some of my friends here could say very much the same.
It was certainly a dominating topic during those three years, and it
was therefore after the fullest and most exhaustive presentation of
the arguments upon one side and the other, that the judgment of
the public was finally given. It was not a hurried judgment snatched
in moment of excitement or enthusiasm, but a deliberate judgment
formed after a most careful and exhaustive presentation of the case,
and the result is what you see. Why is it that Lord Elgin, Mr. Mor-
ley, Mr. Lloyd George, and myseK have the privilege of meeting you
here? It is because of that very thing. We meet you here as the
spokesmen and interpreters of the verdict given by our own fellow
countrymen, and if I were to yield to the seductive arguments of Mr.
Deakin — which of course, if it were a personal matter, I should be
very glad to do — and to Dr. Jameson's blandishments of yesterday,
and were to go down to the House of Commons to-morrow and to
say, " Oh, we misunderstood all this ; there is something to be said
" for it. Let us do what Dr. Jameson says and start on a very small
" scale, which will admit the principle and will not do anybody any
" good " — if .1 were to go and make that proposition to-morrow to
the House of Commons in any shape or form, there is not a man
who knows this House of Commons who does not know that such a
proposition would be defeated by a majority of two or three to one.
Those are the actual conditions under which we are carrying on the
debate at this moment, and therefore, gentlemen, I should not be
honest, and should be guilty of the grossest disrespect to you, if I
did not trll you that in view of these oironmstanoos it is impossible
for His Majesty's Government to propose (and if they did propose
it. it is perfectly certain that Parliament would reject it), any
scheme of Colonial preference by means of tariff manipulation. I am
obliged to state that bluntly and frankly at the outset. You will not
suppose that I am wanting in any way in consideration or respect
for the various arguments which have been used here.
Now having made that quite plain, as I am bound to do, I should
like to deal, and I will do so very briefly, with two or three points
that have been made in the course of the discussion. It was said by
Mr. Deakin in his lucid and exhaustive address, that we here — and
he included the Colonies and the other parts of the Empire — are be-
ing oxchulcd from foreign markets bv tariff walls. Gentlemen, I do
not think that is a proposition which is capable of being sustained.
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
317
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
We possess, in the case of almost all the countries with whom we are
trade rivals, that Treaty stipulation which goes by the name of the
most favoure.. nation clause, and I believe ,1 am speaking well within
the facts — and my Iriend Mr. Lloyd George will, I daresay, be able
to supplement it if necessary by actual figures— when I assert these
two propositions : that we stand better at this moment industrially
in the tarili'-protected markets of Europe than any of the nations
which have protected themselves inter se by retaliation. That is one
proposition. I say next^and I believe this to be equally triie as a
matter of fact — that our foreign trade has been growing of late years
in those very protected markets even at a more rapid rate than it
has elsewhere. I will not say than it has in China or the Argentine,
but certainly than it has in the Colonies. The reason is not very far
to seek. Nations may put up tariff walls as much as they like, but
if they are well-to-do and go-a^ead people, there are a lot of things
they cannot do without. You know very well they cannot do with-
out your raw material. We were tola the other day by Mr. Deakin
that there are somr provisions in the German Tariff which operate
particularly against Australian meat. I take it from him that is so.
But they cannot exclude your wool, and they do not exclude it.
Mr. DEAKIN : America excludes a great deal of it.
Mr. ASQUITH: But I am speaking of Germany; Germany does
not.
Mr. DEAKIN: No.
Mr. ASQUITH: In the same way there are a lot of things we
make. Although we do not provide raw materials like wool, our
exports to Germany are manufactures which the Germans cannot do
without, and they recognise it, as everybody must do. We have seen
it in the case of Canada. In the long run you cannot go on selling
without buying. There is no tariff wall that has yet been erected,
even in America, which is the highest of them all, which has suc-
ceeded, or ever will succeed in excluding, British goods from a mar-
ket, so long as British goods retain their pre-eminence in quality and
adaptability to the needs of mankind, and so long as those needs
remain a constant or growing quantity. You cannot do it, and no
power on earth can do it.
It is a very curious thing, and worth noticing in passing, that in
the paper to which reference was made yesterday, " Miscellaneous
" Statements as to British and Foreign Trade," you will find on page
3 a list of the exports of United Kingdom produce for an average of
years, given in the order of the best customer coming first. By far our
best customer is British India and Ceylon. As Sir James Maekay
has pointed out so well to-day, it is far and away our best customer.
The annual average which they took from us in the three years 1904,
190,5, and 1906. was no less than 44.3S1.000?., an increase of 10.600,-
000?. as compared with the average of the previous triennial period.
India is a Free Trade country, and we get the benefit of Free Trade
there. Our second best customer is Germany, with 29,478,0OOZ. That
is an under-statement of our exports to Germany, because a great deal
of what is put down to Belgium, and still more of what is put down
to the Netherlands, is no doubt German trade. Germany is un-
doubtedly our second best customer. Our third best ciistomer is the
Australian Colonies and New Zealand. Those are both protected up
to this moment. I agree New Zealand is not wholly portected, and
gives us a slight preference, to which Sir Joseph Ward referred, but
Tenth Day.
2n(i May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Asquith.)
318 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Australia up to this moment is a protected market. I simply quote
^i<m^^' ^^^® figrures for the moment to illustrate how little permanent effect
— I will not say tariffs are not injurious; they are — a tariff wall
Preferential has in particular the productive power and productive flexibility of
i\i a country like this, are really pushing the trade and are determined
IJt'h \ to force it in.
Asquith.)
Mr. F. K. MOOR: ,1 do not like to interrupt, but would you tell
us whether the trade with Germany includes in and out trade with
you in connection with the raw products of the Colonies which may
come here?
Mr. ASQUITH: No, this is United Kingdom produce only.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: It has nothing to do with the Colonies?
Mr. ASQUITH: No. It is our own produce. I do not think,
therefore, that the proposition that we are being excluded by tariffs
from foreign markets is a proposition which bears close examination.
There is another point which incidentally I should just like to
mention, not in any way as disparaging the value of the Imperial
markets, but as negativing some inferences which are sometimes
drawn, I think, from incorrect or insufficient data. As a matter
of fact if you take the trade of the United Kingdom with foreign
countries, and with British possessions, and look at it for the last
50 years, you will find that the proportions of that trade which have
gone to foreign countries and British possessions respectively are
practically constant. Take first the imports for the period 1855 to
1859, 50 years ago — and it is convenient to start there — the total
imports into the United Kingdom then were 169,500,000?. Of this
76-3 per cent came from foreign countries, and 23-7 per cent, from
British possessions — that is not merely the self-governing Colonies,
but the whole Empire. I will not weary you by going through the
different periods of five years which I have here, but you will find
those figures vary very little. They wont up in 1900-190-1 as high as
79-2 per cent, from foreign countries, and sank as low as 20-8 per
cent from British possessions; but in 1906, which is the last year —
and this is rather instructive — the total of imports having risen from
169,500,000/. 50 years ago to no less than 608,000,000/., an enormous
rise, the proportion from foreign countries was 76-6 per cent, as
against 70 ;? per cent. 50 years ago, and the proportion from the
British Empire 23-4 per cent as against 23-7 — practically the same
thing.
Now look at the other side of the account — exports- -and here
I am confining myself to United Kingdom produce, Tn 1855 to
1859, 50 years ago, the total was 116,000,000/., and of that, to for-
eign countries went 68 '4, and to British possessions .31 6 p^r cent.
This last year, 1906, the total had risen from 116,000,000/. To 367,-
000,000/.. and the proportions were to foreign countries 67 '2; to
British possessions 32.-8 per cent. So the change has been from
68 '4 to 67 -2 as regards foreign countries, and from 31 '6 to 32 -8
as regards British possessions. There, again, allowing for some
temporary fluctuation — as, for instance, during the South African
war when thr o.xpiirts to n particular quarter wore accidentally
swollen by special transient circumstances — you will find, if you look
through the wliole period, that the proportions are practically con-
stant. So that, both as regards our import and our export trade,
we stand very much as we were — though the volume has very much
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
319
(Mr.
Asqnith.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
increased — as regards the proportions wliich are respectively sent Tenth Day.
to the Empire and outside it. 2nd May,
... • 1907
I am going to inquire how preference would work out practically, 1
if we adopted your suggestion, but before that, let me say a word or Preferential
two in reference to these tariils to which attention has been called. Trade,
and very properly called, as ,T think. One of the great advantages
at a meeting like this is that we can examine these things much
more closely, with the advantage of first-hand knowledge, than other-
wise would be the case. We have four tariffs in which preference,
or what is called preference, is given or proposed to be given to the
United Kingdom. I will not say more than a sentence about those
of South Africa and New Zealand. As regards South Africa, I
think it is a very liberal tariff to us. I do not pass any criticism
upon it; on the contrary, it includes the great bulk of British ex-
ports into that country. But it has been in operation a very short
time. The circumstances of South Africa during that time have
been to some extent exceptional, and I think it is too early yet. as
probably Dr. Jameson will agree, to judge what the ultimate effect
of that tariii is likely to be.
Dr. JAMESON : Yes.
Jlr. ASQUITH: So far, I do not think you can say it has pro-
duced much effect one way or the other, but I say that entirely
without prejudice to future developments.
Now, I will pass to New Zealand. Here may I say, in passing,
how very much indebted my right honourable colleague and myself
are to Sir Joseph Ward for the speech he made yesterday. I think
he gave us a great deal of most valuable and suggestive information
upon a great number of points, and if I may venture to say so, a
most admirable contribution to our discussion. The New Zealand
preference, as Sir Joseph Ward knows, is only with regard to 20 per
cent, at present of the whole British imports to New Zealand. In
other words, four-fifths of our imports are left entirely unaffected
by it, and it takes the form, not strictly of a preference, that is to
say, of a reduced duty given to British produce, but the form of an
increased duty imposed upon foreign goods. That, I think, is the
effect of that tariff. There again, it has only been in operation for
a very short time, and I do not think it is possible to say what its
ultimate effect is likely to be, but I do point out that it covers a
very small part — only one-fifth — of the whole area of British expor-
tation to New Zealand. I have no doubt, knowing what the fiscal
views of the New Zealand statesmen are, it is contrived in such a
way that it does not allow serious comi)etition with any native in-
dustry there.
I would rather refer at a little more length to the other two tariffs
which have been brought before us — the Canadian tariff and the pro-
posed Australian tariff. As regards the Canadian tariff, I acknowl-
edge that it has been beneficial to British trade, and particularly, I
think, to our textile industries. J think it has been beneficial per-
haps more in the way of arresting a threatened decline in trade than
by actually increasing the volume of the trade, or at any rate the
proportion of British trade to the rest of the trade done with Canada.
But I should like to call attention, not in any controversial spirit at
all, to the Canadian tariff for the purpose of showing — because it
illustrates my argument very well — how in framing arrangements of
this kind the country which frames them is inevitably constrained to
320 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. look to its own peculiar local and economic conditions. It is essential
^°19^^^' — ^^^ ^^^ Wilfrid Laurier, I am sure, will agree with me — that
'- those conditions are in the mind, and must be in the mind, of Ca-
Pr^erential nadian statesmen when they are dealing with this matter. See how
" ®' it works out. I am not making this a complaint at all. From their
Asquith.) point of view they are perfectly right. Canada, in the first place,
admits either free, or at very low rates, raw and semi-raw mater-
ials. I believe all countries with what is called a scientific tariff aim
at that. These come in, of course, from the United States of Ameri-
ca, whicti is geographically near; and, as far as I can make out,
about half of them come in free altogether. That is their free list,
and, of course, naturally we cannot benefit by that. In the first
place we do not export raw material at all to any great extent, and
in the next place if we did we probably should not be able to com-
pete, even in coal, with a neighbor which has the advantage of geo-
graphical contiguity like the United States of America, with its
enormous and inexhaustible resources. In the neyt place with re-
gard to the Canadian tariff I notice that among dutiable goods the
average ad valorem rate paid works out at the same figure, namely
25 per cent, for the United Kingdom and the United States, not-
withstanding the preference that is given to the United Kingdom.
The reason for that is quite" plain and very natural. Our goods,
which are highly manufactured and finished goods, belong to the
more highly rated classes, even after the preference has been allowed
for; whereas the dutiable goods which come in from the United
States belong to the lower rated classes and therefore on the whole
pay a lower average rate of duty. Thirdly, in regard to the Cana-
dian tariff, if you take all goods dutiable as well as free, altogether,
the average ad valorem rate after allowing for the preference on
United Kingdom goods is 19 per cent, and on United States goods
13 per cent. In other words it is 6 p?r cent, lower aJ valorem ou the
total importation from the United States than it is on the total im-
portation from the United Kingdom. That is a tariff which has been,
as we know, and we have Sir Wilfrid Laurier's repeated declaration
on the subject, not only honestly conceived but carefully worked out,
80 as to give the maximum preference to the goods of the Mother
Country, which is regarded by Canadian statesmen as being consist-
ent with the general economic interests of Canada. I think I am
right in saying that.
Sir WILFKID LAUKIKK: Quite right.
Mr. ASQUITH: Even with the tariff constructed in that spirit
and with that intention and by such skilled hands the net result is
that wc are at a disadvantage as compared with the United States
of America, and we are paying 19 per cent import duty as compared
with only 13 per cent.
I should like now to say a word about the other tariff, the Aus-
tralian tariff which I think affords a still more instructive illustra-
tion of the practical difiieultios which cmbarras one when one comes
to deal with a problem of this kind, not theoretically, but in a con-
crete form. Of course I recognise to the full what Mr. Deakin said
yesterday. So far as our means of iuformation will allow me, I
study what is going on in Australia with very great interest; still
we are not intimately familiar with all the currents of Australian
politics. But Mr. Deakin explained yesterday, and ,1 accept in full
what he says — many of us have been through similar experiences in
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
321
Tenth Day.
2nd May,
1907.
Trade.
(Mr.
Asquith.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
this country — that this tariff ultimately had to be rather hurried
tiirous'h in the last moments of a moribund Parliament with the
prospect of a general election in the offing, and no doubt under those
conditions things are done or allowed to pass which if the conditions Preferential
were more favourable to deliberation and further consideration,
would be done in a different way, or not allowed to pass. I accept
in full that general explanation, but still this is the only formulated
tariff which has yet been presented to us on behalf of the Australian
Commonwealth. I do not know, and nobody knows — not even Mr.
Deakin, unless he is endowed with that dangerous gift of prophecy —
what substitute for this, if any, will hereafter be produced. But I
take it as it stands, and examine it as it stands, as it has received
the assent of both Houses of the Australian Legislature. It was sub-
mitted to the Governor, and because it was supposed to conflict in
some respects with some of our treaty obligations he was bound to
reserve it for His Majesty's pleasure. Here it is, and if it does not
fullv represent their considered opinion, being a little hurried at the
end, as I say, yet it is the only attempt to put down in black and
white so far as I know what the Australian Commonwealth is pre-
pared to otter to this country in the way of preference.
Mr. DEAKIN: As an accompaniment, remember, to the New
Zealand treaty, and only as an accompaniment. We did not deal with
general preference at all.
Mr. ASQUITH : But this is the only thing we have.
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes.
Mr. ASQITITH: I will deal with it as it stands and see what it
amounts to. I should note in passing, though it is familiar to all
members of the Conference that the Australian tariff, like the New
Zealand one, is not what we call a preferential tariff in the ordinary
sense of the word ; that is to say, no duty is lowered on British goods,
which remain at what they were, but the so-called preference consists
in imposing an additional higher duty on foreign goods of the same
class. That is the method adopted.
Sir "UiLLIAM LYNE: But we start with a lower scale of duty
than others.
Mr. ASQUITH : Than whom ?
Sir W.ILLIAM LYNE : Than Canada, and, I think, New Zealand
too.
Mr. ASQUITH : I daresay. That is not the point I was making.
I say your method is to take the existing scale and build a higher
brick on to the wall for the foreigner, whereas the Canadian method
is to take a brick out, which is the opposite method. I am not com-
paring them. Tne whole of this Australian tariff is subject to the
condition that it is only applicable to British goods imported in
British ship>s, which was the proposal of the Government, I under-
stanu, and to whicn the legislature added " manned by white labour."
That condition in itself is a condition which curtails and cuts down,
quite apart from all questions of policy, which I need not go into,
the actual ambit of the supposed preference very considerably in-
deed. I was going to say it was a condition which renders it very
nearly nugatory; but certainly, in regard to a very large proportion
of our trade, it is a condition which is quite impossible to realise. I
shall not go into the political question which is raised by the addition
5S— 21
322 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. of the words " manned by white labour," because that is not for us to
„ ^, , Mr. DEAKIN: As a matter of fact, the only line of steamers it
Trade. would affect would be the P. and O. Company, who carry a relatively
(Mr. small proportion of those goods, because, being mail steamers, their
Asquith.) charges are necessarily higher. We opposed that proposition simply
on the ground that it is impracticable. How could we tell by look-
ing at goods whether they came by P. and O. or any other steamers.
Mr. ASQUITH: I am obliged to Mr. Deakin for what he has
said. He admits it would make it almost unworkable, but apart from
that we should never, under any conceivable circumstances, accept
here a preference granted to us only in respect of goods carried in
ships in which the whole of our fellow subjects in India were not al-
lowed to serve. We could not possibly accede to that, and everybody
here would say we would rather have no preference at all than pre-
ference limited by such a condition as that. For the moment I was
pointing out that to a greater or less degree, but to some degree at
any rate, it must limit the scope. What are the articles in respect of
which this preference is granted? In point of quantity and propor-
tion, I find 8 per cent ot the whole. New Zealand gives us 20 per
cent, but this Australian tariff would give a preference in regard to
8 per cent of the total British importation to Australia.
Mr. DEAK,IN : I think you will find that balances fully, and more
than balances the proportion of British goods on which the duties
were being raised in connection with the proposed treaty with New
Zealand. Our idea was to balance that for the time being.
Mr. ASQUITH: I heard you say that yesterday, but I am stat-
ing that it applies only to 8 per cent of the British importations.
Mr. DEAKIN : About that.
Sir WILLIAil LYNE : That tariff was only as a forerunner, be-
cause we could not at that time deal with the matter, in consequence
of the Tariff Commission.
Mr. ASQUITH : Mr. Deakin has already said that yesterday. He
said it was a forerunner, but I say I do not know what is going to
follow the forerunner, or whether anything is going to follow it. I
cannot discuss hypotheses and possibilities, and J must take the
thing as I find it, and I am bound, whether it is a forerunner or not,
to take it for what it is worth, and see what it amounts to. You tell
me you are going to do something else. That may be your intention.
I am not sufficiently conversant with your -politics or the composition
of the present Legislature to say whether you will be able to pass
through your Legislature any tariff which does not contain this con-
dition about ships being manned by white labour.
Sir WILLIAAr LYNE: It does not affect it very much.
Mr. ASQUITH: It affects us enormously. It is a thing which
to us is absolulel.y iuadiiiissihlc, anil T say that in the plainest terms.
Jjet us see what the preference amounts to. In the first place, it
applies to 8 per cent, only of British importations into Australia.
What is the amount of foreign trade which conceivably, supposing it
had its full effect, it would enable the British importer to capture
from tlio fori'iKiiiri The precise nnioimt put down is 028.000/. If you
allow 10 per cent., which I should think was a very fair figure, as the
profit that might reasonably be expected to be made if you secure the
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 323
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
■whole of that 928,000Z. of foreign trade, the net result of this would Tenth Day.
be a possible profit of somewhere between 90,000Z. and lOO.OOOZ. to ^"^g^*^'
the British importer there, and to the exporter here; that is upon
a trade which amounts to 20J millions at this moment. Our imports Preferential
into Australia, taking the year 1905, were 20J millions. 18| mil-
Asquith.)
.- , Q — ,, - — , .. — — ^ .*— . ^^4 *—.-
lions of that would not be affected by the preference at all, and the Asnurth
profit arising from the possible foreign trade which we could cap-
ture under it, if everything went well and we secured every ounce
under evei-y one of the categories in this tariff for ourselves — the
total maximum profit which could accrue to the British importer
would be represented at the outside by 100,000Z. I am not complain-
ing for a moment. '
Mr. DEAKIN: Tou are measuring it, and are quite entitled
to.
Mr. ASQUITH : T am not in the least complaining, but pointing
out these things as showing the enormous difficulties which, with
even the best intentions in the world, encumber the framing of
preferential tariffs. Now, I am coming to a point of the highest im-
portance, though I do not want to detain the Conference too long.
I have been pointing out from the illustration of these two tariffs,
the Canadian and the Australian, the difiiculties which tariff fram-
ers have who honestly desire to begin a preference in countries like
Canada and Australia, which possess a protective system. It is a
comparatively easy thing to give a preference when Protection is
the basis of your system, because you have only to lower a duty which
already exists in favour of the Mother Country, or, as in the case
of Australia and New Zealand, to heighten a duty which already
exists as against the foreign competitor of the Mother Country.
That is a comparatively easy thing to do, and you can do it without
any disturbance of the foundation of your system. But just look
at our case. Supposing we had to do this. I pointed out in the
early part of my remarks why we regarded it as essential that the
basis of our fiscal system should be a Free Trade basis. A Free
Trade basis means a system in which duties are imposed for rev-
enue, and not for other purposes. Therefore we give at this moment
to the Colonies the freest possible market that any community in
the world can have. There is nothing that we can give you that we
do not give you.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Tou can give us our wine.
Mr. ASQUITH: We tax everybody's wines. We do not tax your
wine more than other people's. We give you, .1 say, everything that
is possible for us to give, and under no system of preference could
we give you more.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I am very sorry to hear it.
Mr. ASQUITH: I am speaking of facts. What you are asking
when you come here and talk about preference, and suggest that we
should give you preference, is not that we should give you more than
at present — we cannot; we give you everything — but that we should
take away from others.
Dr. JAMESON: Certainly.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : If I had a boy, I should look after him
before .1 looked after a foreign boy.
58— 21J
324 COLONIAL COSFERENCE. 190y
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Mr. ASQUITH: I am not talking about the reason, which may
"°]907*^' ^^ good, bad or indifferent, but the question what preference can be
gi%'en. I am pointing out that while it is an easy thing, and quite
-P''^^''^it'^^ consistent with the whole fabric and structure of a protective sys-
,,. , ' tem, either to raise or lower a duty, with a view in the one case to
Asquith.) punishment, and in the other case to preference, when you have,
(Sir William as we have, a Free Trade system in which we give everything equally
Lyne.) j^q everybody, you cannot have preference without excluding some-
body who at present enjoys tlie open market from the privilege
which at present belongs to him.
In other words, in asking us to frame a preferential tariff, the
Colonies are asking us to introduce into our system a set of duties
which do not at present exist, and which have no analogy to anj-thing
which at present exists, for the purpose not of revenue but for ul-
terior purposes — the purposes of preference. That which is quite
consistent with the framework and spirit of a protective sys-
tem is a flagrant and undeniable departure from the very basis of
our principle of Free Trade. It is all very well for Dr. Jameson
to say "Try it on a small scale; give our Cape wines or the poten-
" tial tobacco supplies of the Cape a little preference ; we do not care
" about the amount, but let us have some instalment as an earnest
of the bargain. " What bargain? The abandonment of Free Trade.
That is the bargain. It is not a question of greater or less — not a
question of giving it on wine or wool.
Dr. JAIIESON: Is not that coming back rather to the fetish
of Free Trade?
Mr. ASQUITH: You call it a fetish, but for the reasons I have
already given, I call it tlie principle deliberately adopted and ap-
proved by the people of this country, and which they regard, and we
regard, as lying at the very foundation of our industrial prosperity.
You can call it a fetish if you like, you can call anything a fetish,
but with us it is a conviction, not based upon abstract argument,
but upon solid experience of the economic conditions under which
we live and move and have our being. I am not asking yoii to
agree with it any more than you ask me to agree with what I might
call the fetish of Protection. I do not like such words.
Mr. DEAKIN: There was once a fetish of Protection.
Mr. ASQUITH: I do not ask you to agree with me any more
than you ask me to agree with you.
Mr. DEAKIN: English Protection 60 years ago was a fetish
and nothing else.
Mr. ASQUITH: People then did not think so. It is just the
difference when times move. It may be in time you will persuade
the people of Great Britain that Free Trade is a fetish.
Mr. DEAKIN: We think it is so now.
Mr. ASQU.ITH: Go and ppr.siiade the people of that, if you can
persuade them, and we will have another Colonial Conference, and
we will see what happens. But you have first to persuade the people.
and so long as wo sit here as their spokesmen, and whether you call
it fetish or anything else, we have to express to the best of our abil-
ity their views. I do not like these questions of terminology which
are apt to germinate heat, but never conduce to light. We may bo
nn absolute set of limiitics, wandering In twilight and darkness —
COLOMAL COyPEREXCE. 1907
325
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
fiscal twilight — and the time may come when we shall have a rude
awakening. We may think, on the other hand, that Free Trade
within the Empire will be recognised as an ideal which all the
various communities of the Empire ought to aid in construct-
ing. But I am pointing out so long as the British people have taken
Free Trade as the basis of their fiscal policy, that is to say, so long
as they impose duties for revenue and for revenue only, by seeking
to introduce this element of a pt'ual duty dircctctl against foreign
produce, the Imperial motive being to benefit your own Colonies
and Dependencies, you are introducing something into the system
which is absolutely alien to it, which cannot be reconciled with it,
and which will sooner or later, and even at once, develop an antag-
onism which in the course of time must lead either to the exclusion
of the new element or to the complete abrogation of the old system.
There is no compromise possible between the two. I say that on
general grounds. I say while it is easy for you, although practically
difficult, as I have shown by the illustrations I have given, in prin-
ciple to grant preference to us consistently with your protective
systems, it is impossible for us to do it without giving the go-by to
the very first principles upon which our fecal system, be it right
or wrong, has been established. But let me add to that. What is it
that we are to prefer? I have here a table which shows the exports
to the United Kingdom — and these would be the subjects of possible
Preference — froin our various self-governing Colonies that are re-
presented round this table. This is for the year 1905, which I
think are the latest full figures available. They are classified here
under four headings: "Food, drink, and tobacco" is the first
column ; " Raw materials and articles mainly unmanufactured "■ is
the second column ; " Articles wholly or mainly manufactured " is
the third column; and the fourth column is "Bullion and specie."
I do not think we need trouble about bullion and specie, Xobody
proposes to give a preference to that,
Mr. DEAKIN: We all give a preference to it.
Mr. ASQUITH: There is a natural preference we all accord to
it; but I dc not think it enters into this problem.
Under the first column, taking the self-governing Colonies, Aus-
tralia, Xew Zealand, Canada, Newfoundland, Cape of Good Hope,
and Natal, in food, drink, and tobacco, our imports, or rather your
exports to us, were 27,742,000?, We have not figures for the Trans-
vaal yet, I daresay what appears to come from the Cape would
include Transvaal produce and perhaps some that comes through
Natal too, i only say that by way of explanation, " Food, drink, and
tobacco " is 27| millions, roughly speaking, " Raw materials and
articles mainly unmanufactured " -32,495,000 — 32J millions, roughly
speaking; "Articles wholly or mainly manufactured," 5,569,000, The
Cape and Natal figures only are for 1904, These are the latest fig-
ures we have, and they will do roughly for the purpose. I do not
pledge myself to precise accuracy. The members of the Conference
will see that of the total importations to the United Kingdom from
the self-governing Colonies while only 5J millions are articles wholly
or mainly manufactured, 2TJ millions come under the category of
raw material. It is therefore obvious that any preference which we
can give which is not to be a nugatory preference, but is to be of
real value to the Colonies, must be a preference which applies to one
or other or both of the first two columns, A preference given to
Tenth Day.
2nd May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Asquith.)
326 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. these comparatively insignificant quantities of manufactured goods,
ignn^^' 5i millions, would be of little or no value to the Colonies themselves.
'■• If we are to give you a preference of any value we must give it
Pr^erential either on food or raw materials, or on both, the considerably larger
,i,r ' item according to these figures being raw materials.
Asquith.) Now I have listened and listened carefully to everything that was
said by Mr. Deakin, and by Dr. Jameson, and others, and I cannot
now make out, and do not at this moment know, whether part of the
proposal made is that we should give a preference to Colonial raw
materials. I have heard no answer to that question. I have often
put it myself. I thought we should get enlightenment upon it in
the course of these discussions.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : Are you including Canadian wheat in that ?
Mr. ASQUITH: Yes, certainly — in the food, not in the raw
material.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Do you say only 5 per cent, of manu-
factured articles came from the Colonies altogether?
Mr. ASQUITH: 5,500,000L It would be more than 5 per cent.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: What struck me was, if you get such a
small proportion as that, you have a tremendous margin where you
could give preference on, say, wheat.
Mr. ASQUITH: That is just what I am coming to. It is ob-
vious it is no use giving preference on these manufactured articles.
They are a mere bagatelle — a mere drop in the ocean. Therefore,
any preference to be really effective and at all evenly distributed
between the Colonies must be on food or raw material — one or both.
Raw materials, as I point out, come first in bulk — 32J millions. Is
it, or is it not, part of the proposition that we should give a prefer-
ence on raw materials?
Mr. DEAKIN: May I point out that I espressij put aside that
question upon the general principle, in which I tLnuglit you concur-
red, that what you would give, the kind aLd form and extent of
your preference, was entirely a matter for yciurselves, and it was not
for us to attempt to suggest its character? That was my reason.
Mr. ASQUITH: I quite appreciate that. ;ind perhaps I ojght
not to put it in the form of a question to you, and [ will not. But
I will put it in the form of a question t.> myself and 1 will suppose
I am trying to construct a tariff. I thins you are quite right in
saying that this is a matter which, if the Imperial Government re-
solved to give preference it would ha re to suttle for itself. So as
Imperial Chancellor of the Exchequer, liiiviviy gr.t a mandate from
the country to give preference to the Cilonies, I am trying to con-
struct a preferential tariff which is to be fair ii) t\w Colonies, which
is not to introduce a new and much more objectionfiMe form of
preference — I mean preferring one Colony to another — which is not
to introduce another and equally objectionable form of preference,
namely, the preferring of particular interests in particular Colonies
to other interests. But I am trying to construct a preferential tariff
which shall be really fair and just. What do I find ? Wliat mater-
ials have I to go upon? First of all it is perfectly clear my tariff
must be a tariff which will impose discriminating differential duties
against foreign importations of raw materials and of food. I can-
not do it without including both raw materials and food. J will take
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
327
(Mr.
Asquith.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
just one illustration, which will show the gross unfairness which Tenth Day.
would result from not doing so. Take the Cape, represented by ""^J^*^'
Dr. Jameson, what is the condition of things there? The Cape '-
sends us, including all their wine, of which we heard yesterday, Pr^erential
28,000?. of food, drink and tobacco, but the Cape sends us l6,281,000Z. '''■
of raw material, very largely diamonds and wool. How can I possi-
bly deal fairly with the Cape, or possibly give to the Cape any pref-
erence that is worth the name, unless I impose a differential duty
as against the foreigner upon those raw materials?
Dr. SMAETT: Try us with a one-shilling reduction on tobacco.
Dr. JAilESON: Surely that is a difficulty for the Colonies
themselves to get over.
Mr. ASQUITH : I was told just now that this is a matter which
the Imperial Government must decide for itself.
Dr. JAlfESON : Exactly.
Mr. ASQTJITH: I am not going to do injustice to you.
Dr. JAMESON: You passed the South African tariff over very
lightly, which is very significant, because it gives a preference not
only on the bulk of British goods, but on nearly everything.
Mr. ASQUITH: I agree— over 80 per cent.
Dr. JAMESON: It even goes so far as to put 25 per cent, on
foreigners on our free list. The only people having a free list in
South Africa are the Britisli Government. It was rather significant
it was passed over. The tentative tariff of Australia, which is
merely an instalment of what is to come, occupied your main criti-
cism. Apart from that, the Cape is willing to give 25 per cent,
of its Customs duty preference to the United Kingdom. Knowing
there is 28,000?. of stuff that comes over and knowing that the Cape
cannot get much, the Cape is wishful to grow, and to get something.
This is a way in which it will grow if there is a preference on that
very small amount which they send at present. That is the answer
to that doctrine.
Mr. ASQUITH: Unless htmian nature at the Cape is very dif-
ferent from what it is everj-where else, if the inhabitants of that
Colony found we were giving large preferences to Canada and Aus-
tralia in respect of wheat, butter, and meat, and things of that
kind, which were being very beneficial, I will assume, and considerable
in their amount, I should be very much surprised if the people of
the Cape would be content to have a small preference on 28,000Z. of
food, wine, and tobacco, when there is 10 millions of raw materials
being sent from the Cape to this country every year.
Dr. JAMESON: How does it hurt the Cape if the Cape has
nothing of that kind to send over? Surely the Cape is not going to
be the dog in the manger and say Canada is not to get it. Of course
Canada will get infinitely more advantage than we, but we hope to
grow in course of time.
Dr. SMAETT: You made a point upon the smallness of the
amount of Cape wines sent to this country. Before Cobden made his
treaty with France we sent nearly one million gallons of wine — over
800,0(10 — for consumption in Great Britain, and we send practically
nothing now.
Mr. ASQUITH: I agree it has gone down.
328 COLONIAL COSFEREyCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Dr. SMABTT : It would grow up again if iireference were
. Mr. ASQUITH: As regards wine and spirits, .1 pointed out
Trade yesterday, I believe, that under no preferential system anywhere is
(Mr. that given.
Asquith.) j)^. JAMESON: We have the list here where Australia and
Canada give it.
Mr. ASQUITH : I Know you have given it as between Colonies —
a very small affair — but Canada does not give us any preference on
spirits either upon the General or Intermediate Tariff, nor, if we
take the Intermediate Tariff as the standard, upon wine either, and
none of the Colonies either give or propose to give us any on either
wine or spirits.
Dr. SMARTT: The whole amount of those figures is 28,000Z.
sent to Great Britain. With much smaller population than there
is at present with preferential treatment on wine, the amount of
money paid to the Cape for wine alone was formerly at least four or
five times the whole amount now.
Mr. ASQUITH: It is quite possible, but that is not due to mere
changes in tariffs but to improved cultivation and improvement in
taste. I sincerely hope the Cape wine will become a large and
flourishing industry.
Dr. JAMESON: Jt is very significant that it went down from
about 130,OOOZ. to nothing, from the date the scale was changed.
Mr. AsQUITH : The whole question of alcohol and wine is one
which is very difficult, and it affects our relations with France,
Spain, Portugal and Germany. It is one which you cannot deal witli
"in an isolated way. What I am pointing out to the Conference —
and I took the Cape as a very good illustration — is that you cannot
possibly give a preference which shall be anything like an even-
handed preference as between the different Colonies of the Empire
unless you include in it raw materials as well as food. No human
ingenuity could do it. That is a fact, and a very important fact.
Now, I will come to what is, after all, the crux of the whole mat-
ter. If I can only create a preferential tariff in favour of the Colonies
by ta.Ning food and raw materials, that is to say, by imposing a duly
upon foreign food and upon foreign raw materials which I do not
impose upon Colonial food and Colonial raw materials, not only, as I
said a few moments ago, nm I practically abandoning the very citadel
of our fiscal position, but in the opinion of ITis Majesty's Govern-
ment, and in the opinion of the majority of the people of this country,
I am curtailing the sources of supply and raising the price of the
necessaries of life and the necessaries of industry.
Sir WILLIAAl LYNE: That is what I dispute.
Mr. ASQI'ITII: I know you dispute it, and Sir Joseph WanI
said yesterday in his admirable speech that if he thought it would
have that otiect he would not be in favour of iiroforonco. I was very
glad to hear him say so, and I am quite sure he would not, lie does
not think it would have that effect, and Sir William Lyne does not
think it, and probably the majority of you here do not think it.
But wc think it would, and the people of this country think it would,
and thoy believe that they have the best grounds for so fliinkiug —
grounds founded upon expedience. Let me state our position — I am
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907 329
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
not arguing it — it may be right or it may be wrong. This is the Tenth Day.
position which is held by Great Britain and by the majority of the ""*|„^^^'
British pe(i])le. When you impose an import duty upon a commodity _J '_
which is a necessary of life or of industry, one or the other, and when Preferential
the commodity is of such a kind that you cannot substantially make w "
up the supi)ly that .vou want from domestic sources — given those two Asquith.)
conditions and I carefully limit my proposition in that way — sooner
or later, though the process may be delayed or deflected for a time,
that duty appears in added cost to the consumer. You may think
that is nonsense, but that is what we believe to be true. It is what
the people of this country believe is true, and so long as they believe
that to be true, they will give no Chancellor of the Exchequer — I do
not care what political party he belongs to — any mandate or authority
to impose a duty upon the things in those two columns, which are
the necessaries of life in the first column — wheat, meat, butter, and
so forth — and which are the necessaries of industry, many of them,
in the second column — wool, wood, and the rest of it. They will not
do it. Tou may think they are wrong, but that is their view. Further,
thoy hold the view, which is also the view of His Majesty's Govern-
ment, that if you were to impose such a duty, and if the duty had
the effect which we believe it would have of raising the cost of these
necessaries of life or industry to the bulk of our population, it would
not only have that effect, but by raising the cost — because you cannot
have two prices in the same market — of the whole of the supply, it
would put into the Exchequer a comparatively limited proportion
of the additional cost paid by the consumer, whereas the bulk would
go to other quarters. There, again, you fly in the face of one of the
fundamental principles and rules of our Free Trade system.
Of course, gentlemen, you will not agree with many of the things
I am saying. You think, no doubt, other people are right, and that
our economic system belongs to the age of the dodo or some other
prehistoric period. You may think we are all wandering in Cimmer-
ian darkness. But we are 43.000,000 people, still the richest in the
world, still not afraid to speak with our commercial enemy in the
gate, and convinced that no system of preference such as you havp
been advocating with so much ability round this board during the
last few days can be adopted in Great Brit^-) which does not involve
ta.xation of our sources of supply, both of food and of raw materials,
and a consequent enhancement in the cost of the necessaries of life
and of industry, and a corresponding and necessary curtailment in
the area and profitableness of the whole of our productive industries.
That is our position, and I state it with the utmost frankness, reci-
procating the frankness with which you have been good enough to
address us; and I am sure you will forgive me if I have used plain
language and not equivocated or beaten about the bush. That is our
position, and that being so, it is impossible for His Majesty's Gov-
ernment, anxious as they are by every means in their power to pro-
mote the commercial development as well as the Imperial unity of
this great fabric for which we are jointlj' responsible, to recommend
to Parliament any such fundamental change in the fiscal system of
this country as would be involved in the adoption of the proposals
which you have laid before us. But I say, and this shall be my final
word, while I eould not recommend anything in the nature of Colon-
ial preference by the manipulation of tariffs there are many ways in
which I think it is not only the interest but the duty of the Imperial
330 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Parliament to promote the commercial interests of the rest of the
^'^^t^^^' Empire. I associate myself with a "good deal of what was said by
_I L Mr. Deakin, and particularly with what was said by Sir Joseph Ward
Preferential and also I think by Mr. Moor. I have no doubt that in South Africa
\f ^^ i'^ New Zealand you suSer from what may be called artificial im-
Asquitii ) pediments, for instance the subsidising of these foreign lines of
steamers, and the imperfection or undeveloped condition of our
means of communication as between the different parts of the Em-
pire.
Mr. F. R. MOOE: And the rates on state railways.
Mr. ASQUITH: There again that is an intricate thing with which
it is difficult for us to deal. Take the important point raised by Sir
Joseph Ward as to what may be called the development of Imperial
commercial intelligence. Mr. Lloyd George has already taken steps,
but I hope by consultation with you, and with Mr. Deakin's assist-
ance particularly, we may be able to develop that on a much larger
scale, because I think it is a monstrous thing that in our own Colo-
nies the foreign tout — if I may use a common expression — going
about to look after biisiness can find one of his own nationality to
give him all the information he needs for the prosecution of his
business, while a Briton or a Colonial who goes to another Colony
finds no corresponding facilities. That is one of the things that
urgently needs reform, and which cannot be too strongly insisted up-
on, and which I think we are very much indebted to you for having
brought so clearly before our notice.
Again there is this great question — and I do not Uke, particu-
larly in the presence of Sir James Mackay, to definitely commit
myseK about it — which affects the Antipodes very much, the question
of the Suez Canal and the possibility of doing something to cheapen
and facilitate the means of communication through the great water-
way.
There is the question referred to by Sir Joseph Ward and Sir
Wilfrid Laurier, and also I think by Mr. Deakin, of what I may
call inter-Imperial communication. You will not expect me at this
stage to commit myself definitely to any particular scheme, but I
can assure you that the proposals which Sir Wilfrid Laurier has
adumbrated, and which were referred to by other speakers yesterday,
are so important and so interesting, and appeal so strongly to the
sympathy, and the intentions of His Mnjesty's Government, that if
they can be reduced into a practical form and shown to be of a work-
able character, you will find no lack of co-operation, nor — I may
safely add I think, though I am Chancellor of the Exchequer — any
lacK of the necessary material assistance on our part in order to
bring them into effect. We are most anxious to assist in all those
ways.
Take another great question, the question of emigration. I do not
know whether the Conference has already dealt with that.
Mr. DEAKIN: We have, in part.
Mr. ASQUITH: That is a most important matter, and a mat-
ter as to which there ought to ho constant co-operation between the
Imperial authorities and the different local communities. I only
mention that, not as an exhaustive catalogue, but as an illustration
of the ways in which we not only might, but ought, as the Govern-
ment responsible for the Mother Country, to do all in our power to
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901 331
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
develop aud promote better commercial relations between all parts Tenth Day.
of the Empire. I can assure you, and I am speaking quite sincerely, ^'^''™*'^y'
that it is a most thankless task for a Minister in my position to L
combat propositions which are concurred in by so large an amount Preferential
of representative opinion in different parts of the Empire. It is Irade.
not an agreeable duty at all, but it is one I am bound to perform Asauith )
to my colleagues, and to the House of Commons, and to the country.
But, having stated to you quite frankly, and without any reservation
or qualification, what our position in that matter is, I can assure you
that ill all these other directions we are only too ready and anxious
to receive and entertain, and so far as we can to co-operate, in carry-
ing into practical effect any suggestions which your combined vris-
dom may bring before us.
I thank you very much gentlemen, for the indulgence with which
you have listened to me to-day.
Mr. DE AKIN : Might I ask one question, having special reference
to the exceedingly interesting points which you have just made. I
notice that you have for one reason or another excluded from refer-
ence the proposition once associated with these various suggestions
as to Imperial inter-communication and assistance proposed by Mr.
Hofmeyr. I do not know whether you are in a position to say whe-
ther it is or is not worth while for us to initiate a discussion, which
some of us, if there was time, would be most glad to enter upon, as
to the imposition of a small uniform duty all round the Empire upon
foreign goods, the proceeds of which should be devoted to what may
be termed Imperial purposes, such as the inter-communication you
have spoken of. This proposal would not affect either Free Trade or
Protection. It would not be a tariff but a surtax, if such a word
might be used, to include goods not now dutiable, the proceeds of
which would be devoted to Imperial purposes. Since Mr. Hofmeyr
proposed it, Sir George Sydenham Clarke has fully developed it.
Mr. ASQUITH: I think that is an idea of Sir George Clarke's.
Mr. DEAKIN : if there was a possibility of any practical result
coming from its consideration, that is a method which, quite apart
from all fiscal matters whatever, would provide a common fund that
could be used for Imperial purposes. Perhaps it is not fair to spring
the question on you.
Mr. ASQUITH: No, please do not ask for my answer now.
Mr. DEAKIN: Perhaps you would take it into consideration.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I have listen-
ed with attention to the speech which has just been deKvered by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from his standpoint, I must ad-
mit that it was an able speech and affords food for reply; perhaps
not reply on the instant, but I feel when it sees the light of day —
I do not know when it will — it will be replied to pretty vigorously.
I cannot help saying, my Lord, that the whole tenour of that speech,
if I may be allowed to use the term, and I scarcely like to use it,
was alien to Britain's Colonies, it was treating the British Colonies
on a par with foreign nations. When one remark was made regard-
ing the desire on the part of Great Britain to be allowed to deal with
her tariff as she desired and to deal with her domestic questions as she
desired, I could not help thinking that that was equivalent to saying
that the Colonies were not on a par with or not part of the domestic
Empire of Great Britain.
332 COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Mr. ASQUITH : No, I said the exact opposite, that we only claim
""^4^^^^' for ourselves what we concede to them.
Pr^f^tial ^^"^ ^VlIJ^I^^ LYNE: That is just the point. I feel when
Trade. Great Britain, our mother, is claiming anything for herself, she
(SirWilliam should practically be claiming it for all her Colonies too as a part of
Lyne.) (.jjg domestic machine, because, if we are to have Imperial — I do
not like the word, our people do not like the word " Imperial " —
Defence and Imperial laws we surely should not be excluded from
Imperial consideration as far as our commerce is concerned.
I, as you know, altogether differ — it may be presumption on my
part — from the foundation up to the very summit of the structure
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has attempted. I do say from
a tirm conviction — as firm a conviction as my friend Sir Joseph
Ward gave expression to the other day — that if I was under the im-
pression that the proposals we are making would increase materially
the price of food or make the condition of the people of Great Britain
worse than it is, I do not think that I should advocate it, however
much it might be desired. I do not like your absolutely ignoring the
whole of the British Colonies excepting India. India cannot be
placed, in dealing with a matter of this kind, in the same category
as the self-governing Colonies. India is not a self-governing Col-
only in the sense in which we are, and therefore I put on one side
to a very large extent the remarks made by the representative of
that country. When India is prepared to improve and keep up the
position of her people, or if I may so term them, her numerous peo-
ples, to a fair state of living, a fair wage, and to place them nearly
in fair comparison with ours — I do not say quite — with all other
white people of the self-governing Colonies, then and then only is
the time when we can make comparison.
Mr. MORLE Y : What do you mean by " payment " (
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: They get 4id. a day on board the boats
against our men's os. With the P. and 0. Company thoy get ihd. a
day or thereabouts and our men get 5s. or thereabouts in our country.
When Sir James Mackay speaks of tariffs being no barrier to the
exports of India, I can well understand it, because the labour of
India is so miserably paid that it does not matter much what tariff
it is, they can overcome it ; but heaven protect our white self-govern-
ing Colonies from our labourers ever being brought down to the
condition of the Indian people. I therefore cannot bring myself to
compare the conditions of India with the conditions of either Can-
ada, Australia, or South Africa.
.1 do not wish to say much with reference to the speech that has
been delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because if I were
to talk, or we all were to talk, for the next six months, evidently,
from the decisive way in which the arguments have been met, we
would not have the slightest hope of altering the position. I regret
very much that we have come all this distance — my Prime Minister
and myself — to get such a reply from the Government. It is to my
mind one of those things that will not and does not help to draw
together the British Empire, -.i the onset of the Chancellor's speech,
lie referred to the unique effect of Great Britain's attitude and her
laws and her administration as bringing together and keeping to-
gether the peoples of her sol "overning v^olonie.s extending over the
COLOyiiL COXFEREXCE, 1907 333
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
world. I do not thing the Chancellor's statement will help that posi- Tenth Day.
tion '""^ ^^"•''■•
"" • . 1907.
I have prepared several notes, and I do not intend to go much
beyond them at present. Perhaps 1 may have a reply from my friend, I^referential
Mr. Lloyd (.jporge. l)ut it is not fer mo, after the reply that has been tttii-
received on behalf of the Government, to feel that we can do more ' Lvne.)
than, if it is proposed, and I hope it will be proposed, pass a resolu-
tion in favour of what we have come all this distance for, and then
leave it in the position, almost, but not quite, that it was left in in
1902. I heard the remarks made by General Botha when he spoke,
and, .T think, also the representative for Newfoundland, Sir Robert
Bond, in reference to leaving the position exactly as it was by the
resolution of 1902. The position has advanced. Under that resolu-
tion I find one subsection was: "That the Prime Ministers present
" at the Conference undertake to submit to their respective Govern-
" ments at the earliest opportunity the principle of the resolution,
" and to request them to take such measures as necessary to give effect
" to it. " Well, in Australia, which is the wealthiest and the first of
all the Dependencies of Great Britain, we have done it. We have
not only done it but we have done more. We have appealed to the
country partly on this question, and as far as I can judge at the
present time from the election only last December we have a House
which I think will be nearly unanimous upon it. We passed the
short preferential tariff, which was only an indication of what we
intend to pass hereafter. I may say that when that tariff was sub-
mitted by myself with the consent of the Prime ^finister and the
Cabinet, we did not know quite what the feeling gcnerallv of the
country was. But now we do, and now we both speak with a very
much stronger sense of that feeling than we ever could have done
before. I must be allowed to say — and I hope I shall say it without
offence in any way — that I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not fairly treat or deal with this particular question. He took
that instalment of preferential trade that we wish to give to the
Mother Country and New Zealand as though it was all that was in-
tended. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says that embraces only
8 per cent, of the imports from Great Britain into Australia, that
leaves 92 per cent, that we do not touch at all. He admits the 8
per cent, would give Great Britain 100,000/., but says sarcastically
what is this 100,000/. in twelve months? On his own showing it is
about 1,200,000/. that we offer to give to Great Britain when we deal
with the whole tariff, and I did feel, and do feel, that it was not deal-
ing fairly to Australia and to the representatives we have made of
our instinctive desire — I use the word " instinctive " because it is an
instinctive desire, and not absolutely a commercial desire on the part
of Australia to be linked closer with the Mother Country. T wish
to emphasise this particular fact, that on the basis according to the
Chancellor's showing of the small forerunner, we offered a preference
of some 1,200,000/. profit to Great Britain in the year on extra
trade.
I hope, in spite of what has taken place, that the Prime Minister
and the Cabinet will agree to my testing this matter right through
and further impress on the people of Great Britain and on the pres-
ent Ministry here what is in the minds of her Colonics. Wliilst the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was speaking he referred to the 4.3 mil-
lions of people in Great Britain. Roughly, as far as my memory
334 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. serves me, the Colonies that are prepared to give preferential treat-
2iid May, ment to Great Britain have nearly 20 million people. That is get-
L ting towards half the number of the population of Great Britain.
Preferential Surely they should receive some consideration. It is not as though
'^^^f: it was 5,000 or 50,000 or five millions, but it is nearly 20 million of
Lyne.> people that practically unanimously are asking Great Britain to
consider this question. Not demanding it, not in any way saying
you shall or you shall not, but saying " We offer you this, and we
" hope that you people will see the necessity of dealing with the mat-
" ter hereafter. "
As to the question of extra cost of living, I do not believe that it
will be any more than now to the British consumer. In fact I am
sure it will not and in this way: At this present moment we have
hardly commenced to grow wheat in Australia. We have a large
enough area fit to grow wheat in good districts and with a fair rain-
fall, if properly put under crop, to supply Great Britain altogether,
but unless we know that we are to get a market — and we are satis-
fied with the price of to-day — we cannot get our farmers to enlarge
the area of farming to the extent we desire. But if we could know
that we should have preference with Great Britain we should certain-
ly supply a great deal more than ii or 4| per cent., which is all we
supply to-day of food-stuffs to Great Britain. If we had the oppor-
tunity of putting a larger area of grain in, we could do it Sd. or
4d. a bushel cheaper than we can now send it. So, under these cir-
cumstances, I do not think there need be the slightest danger of
any additional cost so far as the consumer in Great Britain is con-
cerned.
I hope i may be permitted to have what I say placed on record ; it
is more necessary now than it was before the statement we heard to-
day from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to let the Australian people
know exactly what we have attempted since we came here. We
came here primarily to deal with this question. It is not the last,
the laggard question, of the Conference in our estimation, nor is it
so in the estimation of our people. It is the primary reason, if I
may so term it, for our being here to-day.
Speaking .^rom the standpoint of an Australian who has never
before been out of Australia, I do not come here, and I think my
Prime Minister does not come here, to plead in an abject way for
anything. We do not come here to filch anything. We do not come
here with a view to place the British consumer in a worse position
than he has been in. But, speaking as a representative of the great-
est, though most distant part of the Empire, I desire clearly to lay
before you matters which seem to me to be of great moment to the
Empire, and I do not speak with any wish of derogation from that
great countrj' Canada; if, however. Sir Wilfrid Laurier will look
up statistics, he will find that the export trade of Australia last year
was nearly 14,000,000Z. more than Canada, and the total trade of
Australia I think, from memory, is nearly 5,000,000^, more than that
of Canada; this when we have hardly commenced, as I say, to de-
velop our country.
Sir WILFRID: What was the total trade of Australia?
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: ^ast year exports approaching 70,-
000,OOOZ., and about 46,000,000Z. imports. I think it is between 4,-
OoO.OOOJ. and 5,000,000/. more than Canada. During my lifetime in
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 335
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the southern hemisphere I have seen changes occur of startling mo- Tenth Day.
ment to tlie Empire, and I feel it my duty to speak to this Confer- ""19^^^'
ence, and try to give them some idea of these changes which have
and are now even to a greater extent taking place so far as we are Preferential
concerned. The changes I refer to are hard solid facts — to which ,„. ^tth'
,. , , _,, , (sirVVilham
we in our distant country cannot close our eyes, ihey are grad- Lyne.)
ually sucking away the trade — and I say this advisedly — and with
it the employment and life's blood of the people of the Mother
Country, and I also say that because the trade would be here were it
not being forced to foreign countries, and the employment, too, would
be here. I feel that these changes are attacking the very heart of
tile Empire, and I want it to be understood, with your permission,
that I am a strong Britisher. Why ? Because my father came from
Britain, .and because my grandfather came from Britain, but as
each new generation comes it has been presented to me very vividly
that you want something more than that to keep up the interest that
hitherto has been held by our forefathers, and ourselves in Great
Britain, and nothing will do that so well as closer unity in commerce.
That is one thing that I am very anxious for. I see the younger
generation callous to some extent, thoroughly loyal in a sense, but
callous. That is not so with the original stock, who were imbued
with the feelings of their fathers and grandfathers in regard to
Great Britain. This has impressed us very keenly. We want to
know more of Great Britain, and Great Britain should know more
of us. Unless some means can be devised the foundation of Great
Britain itself, the foundation of this great Empire, will be under-
mined. That is my humble opinion. I also believe that the people
will see their commerce slipping away to the foreigner and the vari-
ous branches of the Kingdom wiU become scattered units instead of
a great Empire, and that for generations at least the whole future
of our vast Kingdom must depend upon her retaining her predomi-
nance as a world power. We readily acknowledge that in the time
of our infancy Britain has protected her children, and that for many
generations we hope she will be the mainstay of the Empire. And
when in the over-sea portions of the Kingdom we see Britain's trade
slipping away, I feel that we, as guardians of the Empire's outposts,
are compelled to warn you of the dangers we see attacking the whole
of the Empire. You cannot know, except on paper and in cold type
— and that is not the best way of knowing — what is to a large extent
the feeling regarding what is occurring.
Britain herself is specially interested in this question, for the
Colonies, with their vast expanse of territory and immense resources,
must develop, must expand, and the only question with us is whether
our trade is to increase with Great Britain, or with Britain's com-
petitors, which it is doing now. K with the former, the Empire
must prosper; if with the latter, our competitors wiU gain the bene-
fits Britain is entitled to reap. Australia's raw products are in
such great demand all over the world that financially it may seem of
little immediate moment to Australia whether they are disposed of
in the markets of Great Britain or in those of the foreigner; and
that is a matter that is coming very uppermost in the minds of our
people. But when I see trade slipping away from Britain, which
trade in years gone by has employed, and in many years should em-
ploy, greater numbers of her working people I am struck by the in-
justice being done. I do not want you to be misled by those who
336 COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Daj-. tell you that if Britain refuses the preference suggested, we shall
^"^itn ' °^ necessity make treaties elsewhere. No, Australia is loyal, but that
1 action may compel us to sell our wares to the foreigner instead of to
Preferential Britain, and we are doing it to a very large extent in some parts "ow.
Irade. ^^ ^^^ ^^^j^ ^gj.jj ygy Qf ^]jat ^g see, and when you have the full
'Lvne )*'" knowledge of things before you, we must, as has been said to-day,
and said more than once, leave the matter entirely in the hands of
the British people.
When I see our Australian harbours, formerly filled with British
ships, now largely filled with foreign, am I not bound as a member
of the Empire to tell you of the impression it has made upon my
mind? Twenty years ago as one looked over the vast expanse of
Sydney harbour you saw the British flag Hying at nearly every mast-
head. Shortly before I left last month a great proportion of the
shipping in the harbour was foreign ; I found on further inquiry
that nearly half the shipping in Sydney harbour when we left was
foreign and a great portion of it was from France. Huge German
steamers were at the wharves and in the bay. These carry pro-
duets of German manufacture to us and some of them are liberally
subsidised by their Government to enable their merchants to land
their goods on our shores at prices below British; and so they do.
Great American liners, Japanese boats liberally subsidised by that
far-seeing government, French steamers and " sailors, " the latter
waiting for our wheat crop; but subsidised by the Government. I
saw these cutting into trade that was in years gone by wholly British.
When we realise that naval supremacy must largely depend upon
mercantile supremacy, surely this increase of the foreigner at the
expense of Britain must make us pause and consider if all is well.
As a matter of fact some of those great steamers are ready to be
converted into armed cruisers — that I know — and to attack British
shipping, if the opportunity should ever arise. I can recollect the
early sixties when Britain's imports at Sydney Harbour reached
4.000.0007., while German imports only amounted to £20.000. and
when 200,0007. worth of goods only reached Sydney from the whole
of Europe outside Britain. Then out of the total tonnage in Aus-
tralian waters, 9-3 per cent, was British and of the crews, 90 per cent,
were Britishers.
One word as to a remark made by Mr. Lloyd George regarding
the question of 40,000 men increase, I think it was, being taken to
the Navy from the mercantile marine. That was referred to in the
Shipping Conference and in a paper laid on the table by the shippers;
in reply I laid another paper on the table, which I think quite met
that statement; there it is to speak for itself.
It was not until 1881 that the increase of foreign shipping began
to become noticeable. Last year only 18 -9 per cent, of the outward
trade of New South Wales went to the United Kingdom, as com-
pared with 2.5 -.5 per cent, to foreign countries, and of the inward and
outward tonnage of New South Wales shipping, the United ICingdom
only furnished 16-8 per cent, of the whole as compared with 22 per
cent, furnished by foreign countries. That, my Lord, in itself, is
an answer to all the very clever, an<l if I may be permitted to say
so, round-about arguments, that are made to try and prove something
else. Those facts — and I think my Prime Minister will say I deal
in facts as a rule — were submitted to me after very considerable
work by the Department over which I preside, that is the Customs
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 337
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Department of the whole of Australia, and therefore, I think you Tenth Day.
will admit they must be correct or fairly correct. When you see as ""'iq^*^'
one can state positively, that this is taking place in Australia, then — ^^ — 1
I think surely it must have some effect upon those who deal with this Preferential
question in the United Kingdom. ,„. ^-if'
In New South Wales, the foreign tonnage has increased since Lyne.)
18S0 from 172,855 to 1,221,389 tons, and approximately last j-ear
7,400,000 tons of shipping entered and left Australian waters, of
which less than 2,000,000 tons went to or came direct from the United
Kingdom.
During the last 12 years, for which figures are available, the ton-
nage of the United Kingdom in Australian waters has increased by
only 41 per cent., while that of Germany has increased by 155 per
cent.. United States by 89 per cent., and foreign, as a whole, by over
100 per cent.
ilr. LLOYD GEORGE : What are the actual figures without the
percentage ?
Sir WILLIAil LYNE : I have not them with me, but I believe
I have them all,
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Percentages are a little misleading un-
less we get the actual figures.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I will try and get the figures for you.
Mr. DEAKIN : The totals also are apt to be misleading without
the percentages.
:\rr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. I should like them both.
Sir W,ILLIA;XI lyne : Still the shipping returns after all are
only like a finger pointing to dangers ahead, and Great Britain still
possesses 35 per cent, of the external tonnage in Australian waters,
or just equal to that of the foreigner. I want to say in regard to
this, that a great question is, is there anything that will weaken the
position of Australia or any of the over-sea British Dominions, and
make a hostile nation attack quicker, than lessening the bonds of
commerce with the Empire, and the balance of that commerce being
taken by the foreigner? It seems to me that there is nothing that
will do greater harm in the future than this.
It is in the trade returns that we see far more disastrous results
have iirfurred 20 years ago. Of 34.000.000?. worth of imports, 25,000.-
OOOZ. worth was from Great Britain, or 73 per cent. Last year, of
38,000,000/. imported, only 23,000,000/. worth came from Great Brit-
ain, or actually 2,000,000?. less in the total than 20 years earlier, and
showing an all round loss of 13 per. 10,000,000/. worth of goods, or
more than one quarter, came direct from foreigners, or if, as should
be done, the goods manufactured in foreign countries but exported
via Britain be added, you will find that of the 38,000,000?. worth of
imports 13,000,000?. worth — or more than one-third — were the pro-
duets of foreign countries. Compare this with the early sixties,
when Britain's share to New vSouth Wales was 4,000,0u0/., and the
rest of the continent of Europe 200.000/. only. Taking the returns
of New South Wales, it is alarming to find that whereas in the
quinquennial period, 1880-84, imports from the United Kingdom
reached 49-76 of the whole, in the period 1900-04 this had fallen to
32-()() per cent. During the same period imports from foreign coun-
tries increased from 9 71 to 17 71 per rent.
58—22
338 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Australian figures show that there has been an appalling decrease
""Iw*^' ^^ ^^^ employment of some sections of your people, and I wish to re-
1 fer to the speech that was made by the Prime Minister of Great
Preferential Britain the other day, wherein he said that in 1880 or 1881 the em-
-^if' ployment of labour on the soil of Great Britain was 1 million or over
'ltuo )""" 1 million, and to-day it had gone down to a little over 600,000 — I
think 630,000 or 640,000.
You have lost in that one industry alone, according to what your
own chief said, between three hundred and four hundred thousand
persons employed.
Air. LLOYD GEOKGE: They have gone into other industries
— into manufactures.
Sir WILLIAil LYNE : They are driven into the cities or driven
away. It is the worst thing j'ou can do for them.
I desire now to mention just a few matters in which it seems to
me your workmen have lost employment, and it meets a statement
made by your Chancellor of the Exchequer where he quoted the im-
ports from British Colonies, and showed what proportion was im-
ported of manufactured goods and what proportion was imported of
raw material and food stuffs. I will take a very small thing first.
Take matches: in fiv-e years the imports from Britain have de-
creased by 25,000Z. in this one small item, while the imports from
Germany have increased by 23,000^ Take metal pipes : the imports
from Great Britain decreased 26,000/. I want Mr. Lloyd George
to listen to this; I have had this checked very thoroughly: in metal
pipes the imports from Germany increased 17,000?., and from the
United States increased 10,000/. Then on wire the British imports
have decreased 7,000Z., German have increased by 10,000/.. and the
United States increased by 20,000/. On paint the British imports
decreased 35,000/., German increased 1,000/., and the United States
increased 20,000/. Then on stationery British imports decreased
54,000/., and German increased 4,000/. Then on tools of trade the
British imports decreased 12,000/. and the German increased 2,000?.
On wicker work tlie British imports decreased 1,000/., and the United
States increased 20,000/. These changes have occurred during the
last five years finly. and if we went back 20 years the figures would
be far more appalling. Many more lines might be mentioned, but
perhaps these suflico to show .vou the trend of trade, and how foreign
workmen are supplanting the Britisher in Australia. During the
last few years several of the Australian Governments have tried to
divert the trade of Great Britain again to them b,v directing that in
Government contracts British goods are to be bought .if possible.
After an adjournment.
CHAIKMAX: Sir James Mackay wants to make one word of
personal explanation l)efore you begin. Sir William.
Sir JAMES iMACKAY: My Lord, I was anxious not to interrupt
Sir William L.yne in the course of his remarks, but there was a point
where I think h<' was not q\iite accurate, and it would onl.v be right
to correct liim. 1 understood him to say that the Indian sailors on
P. and O. steamers were paid at the rate of 4i(/. a day. This would
be equivalent to nine rupees a niontli, and there are no Indian sailors,
a.s far as i am awai'i', who arc paid nl liss than 18 rupees a luiuith.
COWXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
339
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: Ninepence a day.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: That would make 9d. a day, in addition
to which they get their clothes when they come into cold climates,
and the steamers carry, as a rule, double the number of .Indian sailors
that they would of Europeans. What induces shipowners engaged
in tropiciil trailcs tn employ Lascars or Indian sailors is not economy;
but it is because they are really more used to the heat, and they
stand the climate better than Europeans do. It is a great hardship
for European sailors to be constantly employed in the tropics, and
I think. ;is ^Ir. Diakin jiointed out the other day, the men employed
in North Queensland, when tuey first go there, before they are ac-
climatised are inclined to give way to drink, and Indian sailors are
sober, steady and well behaved men. These are the reasons that in-
'duce shipowners engaged in the Eastern trade to employ Lascar
sailors. I hope you will excuse me. Sir William.
Sir \v'ILLIAM LYNE : Certainly. I am much obliged, my
Lord, to Sir James Mackay for his information. What I said was,
that when India placed her people upon nearly the same footing as
our British white people in AustraUa regarding wages and other
conditions, then it was time enough for India, which is not in the
same category as Australia or the other self-governing Colonies, to
make a comparison between one set of men and another set of men;
and, in addition, I said that I believed the wages paid were 4i(i.
That is what I was informed on the P. and O. boat the " Britannia. "
If it is otherwise, I am glad to know it; but that does not do away
at all with the point of my argument.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: I do not know from whom Sir William
got his information on board the P. and O. steamer.
Sir WILLIA!M LYXE : From several of the officers — not the
chief officers, but the petty officers. That, however, does not change
at all the comparison I was making, even supposing it is 9d., and I
presume it is not 9d. when they are employed in India and not on
the boat. I do not know what their wage in India in rupees is,
but I know it is very low. Our men in Australia — and I am not
going to compare, nor did I desire ta compare, the white men on
the boats with the black men, what I compared was the wage of the
black men with the wage of the white men in Australia — our sailors
get, I think .1 am quite within the mark in saying, from 6? fo 71. a
month; I am not quite sure, at any rate it is not much imder that,
if any, and the difference between that and 9d. a day is a very great
deal even to sailors. That was the object I had in making the
comparison I did, although I am thankful for the correction as far
as it goes.
Sir JAMES MACKAY : If I may say so. Sir William. I do not
think it has ever been proposed in this country, by the Board of
Trade or by the shipowners, that Lascar crews or Indian crews should
be employed in the coasting trade of Australia.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: But they are.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: Dear me, no, not in the Australian
coasting trade — surely?
58— 2.3i
Tenth Day.
2nd May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Sir James
Mackay.)
340
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Tenth Dav.
2nd Mav,
1907.
Mackav.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Yes, they are; the P. and O. boats carry
them.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: The P. and O. steamers run from Lon-
''''^Trade!'^^ don and call at Fremantle and go on to Adelaide, Melbourne, and
(Sir James Sydney, possibly up to Brisbane.
Sir WILLIAM LY^E: They do not go to Brisbane.
Sir JAMES MACKAY : The P. and O. are talking about going
to Brisbane. Although they call at Fremantle, Adelaide, Melbourne,
and Sydney, that is only a continuation of their voyage from Eng-
land.
Sir WILLIAM LYIsE: That does not matter; under our ar-
rangement they are in our coastal trade.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: To that we can take no possible excep-
tion, but surely you cannot object to Indian sailors being employed
on vessels making voyages from England or any other country to
Brisbane, calling at Fremantle, Adelaide, Melbourne, and Sydney?
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: We do, if they compete in the coasting
trade, which they do a great deal.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: The interportal or coasting trade of
Australia is, of course, a matter which it is entirely within your rights
to deal with.
Sir WILLIAil LYNE: They largely enter into the coasting
trade.
I do not want to be long in dealing with this question, and at this
stage, after the announcement made by the Chancellor, perhaps it
may be thought not worth while using any further arguments in
favour of our cause, but I feel, and my excuse must be that I am
completing my argument, that this is a question which will be read
throughout the Briti^ll Empire, and I hope, fmd I understand, that
in the Blue Book which is to be issued, all that is said here and the
arguments advanced will be found, so that everything that is sub-
mitted to the Conference will be for the use and information of every
British Colony as well as Great Britain.
I wish to further say that wlule Britain has decreased her ex-
ports to Australia by over two million pounds sterling during tlie
last 20 years, Ccrmany has. in direct exports alone, increased hers
by 278 per cent., and the I'nited States by 11.5 per cent., while if
the goods actually made in these countries and exported via Great
Britain be added, the figures would be even more impressive. All
nations except Britain show an increase in their exports to Australia
during the past 20 years. To digress a little, I interjected yesterday,
or I think Mr. Deakin did, and I supported it. that there were ves-
sels owned absolutely outside of Great Britain tliat were flying the
British flag, and cutting trade between Great Britain and Australia,
and that line to wliich I am referring was the White Star line. 1
had a deputation from shipping merchants between Great Britain
and Australia who gave me the information that that line was seri-
ously injuring the British trade and bringing from America, via
Great Britain, exports to Australia at something like 15s. or 11. less
|M>r ton than lliat at whidi they could be sent from Great Britain
to Australia.
INow, my Lord. I have, to demonstrate my arguments, a small
chart wliich I desire to snl>uiit iiud have printed with tb.e other docu-
COLONIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
341
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ments, because I find that the best way, as a rule, to bring a matter Tenth^Day.
before people to impress the effect. 1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Sir William
Lyne.)
Vn I ^0.1 fCt y^jm 7j
^
V
I 900 I 901
E
^
""»°^ ,
s
680 ie<)o IB")? 1900 f9oi i9ai i9o3 i9o+ r9oV
§
Vniti6 KtiMicm
SrifithP^.ien.eKJ
fy
342 COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. That chart shows the efFect of trade between Great Britain and
19OT*^' ■A-ustralia with foreign and British Possessions from 1880, and if
'- gentlemen will look at it, the second is the Kne which shows the
Pr^ereutial British trade with Australia from 1880, coming down to 1905. The
.„. TTT-ii- one auove represents the trade with British Possessions coming down
Lyne.) to 1905, line three shows the increase of foreign imports. The fourth
line shows British Possessions nearly even as far as Australia is
concerned. There is one point I wish to refer to. It will be seen
that there is a great drop at one particular point in part of the years
1902. 1903, and 1904. I find on examination that that has caused
correspondingly an immense increase from foreign countries during
these three years of great doprcssion, when a large quantity of food-
stuffs, com, hay, and one thing and another for stock, were imported
from South America, some from the United States, but mainly from
South America into Australia.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : Is that 1903, Sir WiUiam?
Sir WILLIAir LYISTE: Yes, it is part of 1902, 1903, and 1904.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: May I ask another question now, or if
you like .1 will ask it after you have finished explaining the diagram.
I should like to know whether these figures represent percentages or
the actual trade done.
Sir WiLLIAM LYNE : I think it is the actual trade done.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That cannot be.
Sii< WILLIAM LYNE: You will find 87 down to 73, and 75
down to 62. They are percentages.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That does not represent a drop in the
actual trade?
Mr. DEAK,IN: In the totals.
Sir WILLIAil LYNE : It may not be the totals, but it is the pro-
portion.
"Ur. LLOYD GEORGE: That is what I want to make clear-
that it does not represent a drop in the actual trade.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: It does not follow that it does; it follows
that there is a proportionate drop in comparison with others.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: This represents percentage and not ac-
tual trade.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: According to the figures, it is percen-
tages just referred to.
I am convinced that the preference we offer Britain would do
much to rectify this — would increase your shipping — and would
greatly add to the employment of your working classes. So Australia
offers preferential duties on your goods and with it increased emolu-
ment to the British workman, and to give him the work and wages
that now go tr> tho foreigner. I think there is no question about that.
Preferential trade between the German States made that country
the great and mighty country it is. Prior to that they were scattered
units, but with the advent of the policy of giving their own people
better terms than the foreigner and of protection against the outside
world the broken units bocnmo a great and mighty Empire. Of
course, the case^. are not exactly parallel ; for the German States
were all tequally old settled countries with no wide difference be-
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 343
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tween the social circumstances of the workers, while in Australia Tenth Day.
infant industries have to be built up, and the high social condition 2nd May,
of the workers must be maintained at all costs. So to put the Aus- ^^^^-
tralian manufactured goods on an equality as regards price with Preferential
thosf of Eritaiii, it is necessary to have some slight duty even on the Trade,
latter's goods, though this duty will be only trifling compared with <Sir William
that on foreign. Whilst dealing with this question let me add it ^'^^
would be, I think, incomprehensible for anyone to argue that in a
great country like we have, and great Colonics sucli as Great Britain
has, with a production of raw material to the extent we have (suffici-
ent to supply Great Britain with all she wants, and a great deal
more) we should not protect against outside foreign manufacture
mainly. We want to deal, if we can, with Great Britain, but we also
want to increase our numbers and wealth by employment on manu-
factures, and to make ourselves what we should be, a greater country
than we are, and a populous country can only be made by the estab-
lishment of manufactures.
The German Zollverein in some respects resembles the present
proposals for preferontial trade within the British Empire. It was
founded because the producers of the separate States saw thew were
being ruined by the policy of isolation followed by each. A Customs
union throughout the Empire was brought about, and the foundation
laid of their future greatness. Our Empire may look for equal success
if we give greater privileges to each other than to foreign nations.
What I emphatically complain of in the able speech I listened to this
morning is — it was placing our own flesh and blood, our own kith and
kin, in the same category as the foreigner.
It may reasonably be asked what we e.xpect in return. We are
making or seeking no stipulated bargain. The whole of this question
is founded on aspirations and ideals very much higher than that. It
is the unity of the Empire that we are looking to, and we believe
that preferential trade will bring this about at no cost to Great Brit-
ain. I will just refer briefly to a few of the chief items from your
last trade returns with which your Colonies could readily supply
you. This is the importation that you have taken from foreign
countries :— Grain and flour, 70,000,000?. worth; wool, 25,000.000?.;
meat, 41,000,000?. ; sugar. .^9,000,000'. ; buttei 21,000,0(jOZ. ; wine,
4,000,000?.; cheese, 6,000,000?.; leather, 8,000,000?.; and eggs, 7,-
000,000?. Now there is a margin there of importation which comes
mainly from the foreigner; that we seek emphatically to be given
an opportunity over the foreigner to supply, and at no greater price,
the margin of trade with which you enrich the foreigner but appar-
ently do not wish to help your Colonies with, is sufficient to leave
a great margin for your Colonies to supply to the consumer of Great
Britain; whilst from various parts of the British Empire could be
obtained immensely increased quantities of the tea, coflFee, fruits,
cotton, tobacco, and other like products which you now obtain from
the foreigner. The slight preference which in the past has been
suggested from you in return would not, I venture to assert, make
your people one penny the poorer, but it would give an additional
revenue at the expense of the foreigner — not at the expense of the
consumer, but at the expense of the foreigner. The Chancellor this
morning — or I rather think it was Sir James Mackay — when asked
the question at whose expense was it, who paid the difi'erence, who
paid the extra cost, said, in the increased trade to Russia from Jndia,
344 COLOyr.lL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Teuth Day. though having a higher tariff, '"the coiisimier." In actual practice
"'^190 ' ^Ij^'^ you do not put duty on for revenue purposes, arid where you
reasonably can produce it yourselves or manufacture it, it is the
Pi'^f^i'i^t'^l foreigner pays and not the consumer, and that was demonstrated to
.Tr-ii- ^'^ extent that never should be questioned in the effect of the German
Lyne.) tariff when introduL-ed by Prince Bismarck. If any one would take
the trouble to read the opening speech when he introduced his tariff,
his prophecy of what would take place six or seven years afterwards,
and to read his speech six or seven years afterwards giving in de-
tail the results, they could not, if they followed argument at all, say
that in those cases to which I have referred the consumer pays much.
The producer who is receiving those goods lielps to maintain the
treasury of the Empire, but it would give an additional revenue at
the expense of the foreigner and create a fund — and I want to em-
phasise this — out of which your country could follow Australia's
example and pay pensions to your old folk who are in need of a well-
earned rest in their declining years, and in doing so relieve the com-
munity of the enormous burden of poor rates which now fall so
heavily upon your middle classes.
I may say that in New South Wales the effect of a Protective
tariff, small as it is, averagely low as it is, has giveii that country
a revenue through the Customs which has enabled it to pay about
600,000/. a year as pensions to the poor of the community. We are
enabled to give them 10s. or if a man and wife, 1/. a w-eek, and if
it had not been for the increased revenue we get through the Cus-
toms we would have had difficulty to carry that out.
Opponents shelter themselves behind the plea that such preference
will raise the cost of food to the working classes. That such is not
the case may be seen from the fact that in 1902, when a duty of Is.
per quarter was imposed on wheat in Great Britain, the price fell
slightly (it can be proved whether that is true or not), while it rose
soon after Mr. Ritchie took off the tax. Again, in 1902, when the
duty on wheat was raised in Germany, the price fell 9 per cent., and
in France in 1895, when the duty was raised, bread fell 7 per cent.
Now, I give you these instances where the statement that lias
been made and the argument that has bceu relied upon are absolutely
shown to be fallacious. In fact, tariffs on wheat, unless excessive,
have very little intluence on the price. It is a commodity regulated
far more by conditions of exchange, currency, transport and produc-
tion. That is what .1 said previously; give us your market and it
will cheapen our cost of production ; cheapen our cost, and we cau
supply you cheaper than we are doing to-day. Also, it is often forgotten
in Britain — where popular opinion is that only a small proportion
of the wheat used is supplied by British Possessions, that Onnt Brit-
ain itseif is a British Possession, and counting "home" supplies and
Colonial — it will surprise many to learn (and it did surprise me),
that in 1905 55 per cent, of the wheat consumed in Britain was Brit-
ish production, and only 45 per cent, foreign. When these facts are
borne in mind, what becomes of the argument of those who allege
— mistakenly allege, I sa.v — that a dvity of 2s. a quarter on wheat
would raise the price of bread. I conceive that contention is ridi-
culous. Yet this little duty of 3rf. per bushel woidd encourage the
( 'olonies to put IH to 20 million more acres of their land unilcr wheat,
and lo find employment for at least 200,000 more men — Britons I
hope — and I wish again to say — I referred to it this morning — tliat
COLOyiAL CONFERENCF, 1907 345
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ihe way in which that could help to be done to a large extent is Tenth Day.
giving opportiiiiity to a quantity of wheat to be grown in centres; ^"^"Jq^"^'
giving the Jtiailway Commissioners, as they are now trying to do L
in New South Wales the opportunity of taking that wheat in full Preferential
train loads and in bulk, with special trains at a cheaper rate than ,<;■ „*^?'
they can take it now, although they carry it about or nearly 400 miles Lyne )
for 4rf. per bushel, and it would enable the ship to receive the .
wheat without the expense of handling, and when it gets to its
destination to place it in mills or storage without handling again,
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : 400 miles for 4J. in Australia, Sir
William?
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: les, I think it is a little over 400 miles,
but I know it is about 400 miles for id.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : This is over a State railway ?
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Yes. As I say, this would find employ-
ment for at least 200,000 more men — Britons, T hope — who with
their wives and families would consume the manufactured products
of Great Britain, and thus increase employment in the Old Country,
The same may be said of dairying, meat, and manv other industries;
preference to the Colonies would mean the employment of millions
more Britons in your Colonies, and increased markets for British
manufacturers. And let me remind you of another reason why this
trifling duty of 3</. per bushel would not fall on the consumer; it
would be encouraging the growth of wheats such as the strong wheats
of Canada (I presume that I should be supported in this by Sir
Wilfrid Laurier), and the full-floured wheats of Australia. Do you
know that a bag of these wheats will make more flour, and that flour,
on account of its greater strength and nutriment, will make more
loaves per sack than the weak-floured wheats of the Argentine, Rus-
sia, or anywtiere else. In fact a 200-lb. sack of Canadian and Aus-
tralian stronger-floured varieties will make 10 to 20 per cent, more
bread than the same quantity of Russian flour. On these points, far
more than on a trifling duty, depends the price of bread.
Of course, unless some sort of preferential arrangement is arrived
at, it is not by any means certain, for reasons already pointed out
by Mr. Deakin, that Britain or the Colonies can retain even their
present place in the British or foreign markets. Australia, like the
rest of the Empire, loses much in foreign markets through not hav-
.ing behind her the voice of the vast purchasing power of the Empire
as a whole. On all sides Britain's export trade is being restricted by
ever-increasing barriers erected by foreign countries. And yet the
solution of the danger is at hand in the system of preferential duties
and tariff retaliation; and in answer to that little indication from
Mr. Lloyd George I will tell him that if he will be fair and not ta.\k
of totals, but talk of proportions as between Great Britain and for-
eign trade, he must admit it is only a question of time before what I
say comes about.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That little interjection of mine had
reference rather to the statement you made. Sir William, about the
export trade of Britain being restricted more and more owing to the
tariff barriers, and I could not repress the exclamation.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: That is exactly what I thought it did.
346 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. and I say in answer to that that your trade is becoming more re-
2nd May, stricted iu proportion to foreign trade.
1907.
Preferential ^^- I'^'OYD GEORGE: In proportion to foreign trade?
,_.'^".'?^; Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Yes, that although you supply us with
(SirWilham , .. , .' ■ % ^t. ^ ■
Lyne.) ^ very large proportion, what we receive from the foreigner is
catching you up and beating you in the race.
Some fear that if we enter into this bond of union other nations
wiU permanently retaliate and injure us. That they will permanently
do so I do not believe, for nearly 60,000,000?. worth of German ex-
ports go to the British Possessions. If all British countries were
united, I do not believe that Germany, for example, would retaliate
and risk losing this vast purchasing power. They are too dependent
upon British trade, seeing that over 40 per cent, of their whole ex-
ports are sold within the British dominions, but that is not in Great
Britain. In trade England alone takes from America and Germany
goods to the value of 150,000,000?.. while they only take 54,000,000?.
of English goods. The United States total exports to Britain and
British Colonies amounts to 143,000,000?. annually, or nearly 50 per
cent, of their total exports, and they will not jeopardise this market
.1 feel sure. Rather, if properly handled, they and other nations will
take off some of the burdens they now place on our export trade with
them.
One of the most common arguments against preferential trade
is that its adoption would lead to reprisals, and would tend to en-
danger the peaceful relationship of the British Empire with the
other nations.
In view of the fiscal policies of the various nations it is remark-
able that such an argument should be heard. As each individual
justly claims the right to arrange his domestic affairs so that they
may contribute the maximum amount of happiness and advantage
to his family, so surely each nation has the right and undisputed
•privilege of preserving the welfare of its people and protecting the
fruits of their industry.
I do not wish to go over the figures that Mr. Deakin gave. I
have most of them, and I will only mention that the British possess-
ions purchase the enormous sum of 800,000,000?. worth of goods an-
nually. Great Britain alone purchases annually 565,000,000?. worth,
of which only 49,878,000?. are at present subject to any duty. Herein —
in this huge purchasing power if all combine, lies the strength of the
British Empire. Foreign nations, which now refuse to buy our goods
on equal terms with those of other nations, will treat, and gladly
treat, with the British Empire, for the sake of gaining or retaining
portions of this immense trade. The power over foreign nations,
given by the possession of this great marlcpt to be opened or closed
at will, cannot be too widely realised, and the Empire's future de-
pends on all combining and using this power to meet attacks by for-
eign nations on any part of the Empire.
This leads us to another, and perliaps the most important one,
of the advantages to be gained by preferential trade. The Empire
creates nearly three times the amount of productive employment in .
Germany and the TTnitcd States that these countries create in Eng-
land.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: How is that. Sir William?
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 U7
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : That is so. and I have obtained that in- Tenth Day.
formation from certain of the Australian offices here. 2nd May,
1907.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That the trade of the British Empire
creates nearly three times the amount of productive employment in Preferential
Germany and the United IStates as it does in England i i M t I ri
Sir UlLLiIAM LYNE: it acts in diverting; and what it has George,
diverted and what it will divert into Germany and the United States
is to make three times the amount of profitable employment that it
docs in Great Britain. It has diverted an immense quantity of
trade — for instance, a great deal from Australia to Germany — and it
is diverting a great deal to the United States that ought to be here
and is not, and you do not get the employment.
Dr. JAMESOK": If you got it all, you would have three times
as much work to do.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That is what I want to know. I do not
want to challenge it, but I want to know what the proposition is.
Mr. DEAKIN: We say you will not be able to challenge it very
soon.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I thought it would save time if I under-
stood what the proposition was.
Sir WILLIAM LYTSTE: It is very easy for Mr. Lloyd George
to check it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I cannot check it unless I know what it
is. However, Dr. Jameson has explained it.
Sir WILLIAM LYTSTE : As Dr. Jameson put it, you woiild have
had three times as much diverted employment.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : U it had not been for the trade we di-
vert to Germany and the United States.
Sir WILLIAM LYJSTE: The prosperity of Germany is through
Britain's action to some extent. On the mercantile predominance
depends Naval supremacy, on which, again, depends the security of
tlie Empire. Great Britain and the Colonies are helping to build
up huge foreign merchant navies, which will undermine the strength
of the Empire, and it is to be remembered that many foreign Powers
subsidise their mercantile marine with a view to relying on it as a
reserve in war time. Why should not more of Britain's vast outlay—
565.000,000Z. annually which she pays for imported goods — go to-
wards building up the British Colonies; to increasing their wealth;
and to strengthening the Brmsh and Colonial merchant navies and
the Empire as a whole? Colonial agriculture goes hand in hand with
British shipping; increased Colonial production means more mater-
ial tor the British manufacturer and greater purchasing power for
the people as a whole. Success of one means success of both. At
present we, as a whole nation, are not utilising our powers. Even
Adam Smith — the most practical of writers — says " retaliatory duties
" are a matter for deliberation when a foreign nation restrains by
" high tariffs or prohibits the importation of some of our manufac-
" tures into their country. " Not only are foreign nations gradually
prohibiting our imports, but by heavy subsidies to their traders they
are actually ousting British products from British markets. All
approve of the commercial union of England, Scotland, and Ireland ;
of the consolidation of the United States, the federation of South
348 COLONIAL CO^'FERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Africa, and of Australia — then what reason can be urged against che
"'^1907^^' commercial union of the whole Empire.
— — Although it has been partially eclipsed here for a brief period
Preferential q say "here" because it is eclipsed by the action of Great Britain)
(*^ii- Willi im ^^ ^^^ intervention of political questions of purely domestic charac-
Lyne.) ter, the time is at hand when I hope there shall be a fresh awaken-
ing to the benefits of reciprocity and trade preferences in the rela-
tions of the component parts of the Empire. For long an earnest
advocate of the policy of preferential trade, my faith in its wisdom,
and its ultimate realisation, has never waned.
It is impossible to believe that a nation may continue to mark
time in the presence of its advancing competitors and yet retain its
power and prestige. And, in view of the very serious problems which
have to be faced, who can say that the last word has been said, or
that this or that economic faith is for all time and for all condi-
tions ?
In regard to that, let me say that the remarks made and the basic
principle laid down by the Chancellor to-day that because Great Brit-
ain sixtv years ago adopted the principle of Free Trade it is a good
one to-day, has not a sound foundation, although it suited Great
Britain at that time, a time when she outpaced all her neighbours and
was at the zenith of her powers in manufactures, surely there is a
time when all the people will not say: "I am a Free Trader because
my grandfather was " — and that is what most of them do say ; they
cannot give you any other reason. If you ask nine out of ten, es-
pecially those who come to the Colonies as Free Traders (they do
not remain Free Traders long) the question why they are Free
Traders, the answer of most is, "Oh, my grandfather was one. "
Wo arc accustomed to look upon the Empire as a concrete quan-
tity. It is nothing of the kind, but rather a scattered mass of units,
some great, some small, bound together to a large extent only by the
ties of blood and sentiment. Whether it makes for strength or
weakness no man may surely say. In my opinion, compared with the
united States and other great Empires, it lacks that cohesion, those
qualities of strength and unity of purpose which, welding the whole
in a common destiny, afford an unbroken rampart to each storm and
danger; and in regard to that, if anyone looks at the map they will
see how diversified and how distributed the Colonies of Great Britain
are — the Empire of Great Britain; they will see it is the most vid-
nerable Empire that the world knows, and that is all the more reason
why it should be more cemented than it is at the present time, with
ties of kinship and of commerce.
The greatest administrative genius of modern times is said to
have exclaimed, " Give me ships. Colonies, and commerce, " and
therein lies the watchword of the present time — British ships, British
Colonies, and British commerce.
In a recent reprint of the work of John Barnard Byles, originally
published in 184;, entitled "Sophisms of Free Trade and Popular
Political Economy Examined, " there is a remarkable anticipation
of the aspirations whicli are now finding expression throughout the
length and breadth of the Empire : " The great Lord Chatham was
"not only a Protectionist but an ultra-Protectionist; jealous even
" of the Colonies '' — and that is what it seems to me the present Oov-
ernmont are — and ho said, " They shall not make so much as a nail."
That sci-uis to be the policy of Circat Britain at the present time;
COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 349
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
because we want to convert raw material into the niainifactured arti- Tenth Day.
ele we are not to have preference unless we pull down our tariff "'"'o^i^^'
barrier to the ground. " The true policy would differ from Lord '-L
" Chatham's, for it would treat the Colonists as if tliey inhabited Prffereutial
''an English country, giving them full liberty to grow and manu- c-^-if'
" facture what they pleased. It would differ from the system of the Lyne )
" Free Traders, for in place of disadvantages it would give them
" in common with all their fellow subjects an advantage in the Im-
" pcrial markets, and take in return a reciprocal advantage in the
"Colonial markets; the first markets in the world, instead of being
*' opened as now to all without distinction, would give a preference
" to British subjects. It requires little foresight to perceive how
" powerfully self-interest would bind the Colonies to the Mother
" country, and the Mother Country to the Colonies If the vast
" Dominions of the British Crown do not compose a State without
" a parallel for greatness and prosperity, the fault must be in the
" policy of the Imperial Government, " and not of the Colonies.
That is truer to-day than at the time the foregoing was written.
The proposal lately made have given life and shape to the ideals.
They possess the very ingenious and masterful advantages that whilst
each self-governing State may retain its full freedom in regard to
domestic and fiscal affairs, it may also participate in an Imperial
Customs Union (I refer to those proposals made by Mr. Chamber-
lain), and whilst preserving its own industries each unit may share
and contribute to the prosperity of the Empire as a whole, giving
preference to our own people, and combating the competition of the
foreigner. In 1889 the late Lord Salisbury, dwelling upon the future
of the Empire, sounded a note of warning in the caution: "We
" must bring minds not biased by the reflections of the past. We
" have to deal with a different set of problems, in respect of which
" names, political connections and traditions of parties will help us
"very little."
Then the late Lord Carnarvon, of whom it has been said : " He
" was amongst the very first of British statesmen to see clearly on
" the horizon the coming dawn of an actual Greater Britain, and the
" first to counsel timely preparation for dealing with its earliest ne-
" cessities," said, in the course of a speech at the London Chamber
of Commerce, in 18S7 : " You have in the first place, a vast Empire,
"vast in area, population, and resources, of which, as we may honest-
" ly say, the world's history knows no counterpart. It is the first
" and foremost of its kind. Within the compass of this great Em-
" pire. you have all the products of nature that can be named
".If all the interests and parts of this Empire can be adequately
" bound together, the commercial interchange of necessities, com-
" forts, and luxuries ought to be achieved within the compass of our
" own dominions. I believe, myself, the solution will be found much
" rather in the practical adaptation of means to ends" (this is what
he says), "and in common-sense determination to copibine," as far
" as may be, the different interests and resources of an Empire,
" which, though divided and scattered geographically, over the whole
" face of the world, is singularly and marvellously united in the
" heart and feeling, as well as in interest. "
I quote these utterances since they reflect the opinions of by far
the greater number of Australians.
So far, Canada, South Afv'ca, and New Zealand have pledged
350 COLOXIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Dar. themselves to this policy, and the Commonwealth has made a modest
^"Iq^*'^' ^°^ initial step towards the common goal, and in Australia we look
!^ — '- with anxious eyes to the Motherland for the development of events
Pr^erential which will lead to the result we so much desire.
„. Trr-,,. Amidst the stirring events- of recent years which have brought
Lyne.) Australia closer and closer in touch with the Old World's activities
and tragedies, we realise that we must either face the responsibili-
ties of our own protection or be drawn closer to the head of the Em-
pire.
Whatever views to the contrary may find expression, we recognise
that our future is inseparably bound with the fate of the Empire
whose glorious record has been so remarkable. Our faith is in the
Empire, and our oelief is that its unlimited resources may supply us
with most of our wants. We desire to so arrange for the mutual
benefit of each portion of the Empire that we may help each other,
strengthen each other, and, above all, prefer our own to all others.
We want to concentrate the wealth, streng-th, and progress of the
race by a business relationship which, whilst consolidating its power
and prestige, realises its highest ambition in the welfare of its own
people.
When we are warned by the oponents of preferential trade against
the artificial regulations of trade, it is pertinent to ask, how is it. in
the face of modern competition, we find that artificial regulation is
winning the race, not alone in the British Possessions, but through-
out the globe?
It has been trvily said that the boast, " Trade follows the flag," is
not borne out b.v experience. What really happens is that the British
flag is followed by foreign trade. It was Lord Farrer, an ardent Free
Trader, who said " Free Trade can beget no possible qualities in man;
" it leaves the power of nature and man to produce whatever is in
" them, to produce unchecked by human restrictions."
It seems to be a strange peculiarity of the British race that it
rarely, if ever, foresees or is found prepared to meet those greater
emergencies which periodically mark the record of every nation in
history. With characteristic confidence it ignores the most potent
warnings, trusting to blunder through somehow or other, absolutely
unconscious of any other idea than ultimate success.
This has almost, without exception, characterised each war, as
well as each serious crisis, in which it has been involved.
It may be possible that this feeling of self-complacency is the real
stumbling block in the way of fiscal reform. There has been a grow-
ing uneasy feeling for some years past that all is not well with
Britisli trade, but the very thought that the fiscal system has outlived
its period of usefulness is intolerable to those who have worshipped
at its shrine.
In war, a disaster of to-day may be retrieved by the victory of to-
morrow, since the reserve strength of the nation is available in all
its power for the recovery or honour and prestige, but with commerce
the disasters of to-day cannot be so readily compensated for by any
victory of to-morrow. Once the tide of trade has drifted into other
channels, lie sure that it has also carried with it much of the reserve
strength of the nation.
Bearing in mind the implicit blind faith of the many in the policy
of free imports, it is not diflBcult to imagine one of its adherents
standing beside Macaulay's New Zealander on a broken arch of
I
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 351
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
London Bridge amidst ruins of our Empire, self-coufident and self- Tenth Day.
satisfied that in .spite of wreck and ruin his faith remains supreme, ^"^^q^^^"
I have just a word or two more. In reference to some remarks _L
that were made this morning by the Chancellor, to which I slightly Preferential
referred previously in regard to the preference that Australia had .'^'^^1^*:
comnu'Hci'J to tfive. I wish tn point this out. that ours I believe at "" Lyne ) ™
the present moment is the lowest average tariff known in the British
Dominions where there is a tariff at all, that is for Protection, and
it is much lower than Canada. T tliink Canada's is 10 per cent, higher
than ours, or thereabouts. Ours averages about 15, while, I think,
Canada's averages about 25, or something like that.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIER: Between 25 and 26.
Sir \VILLL\M LYNE: I think so. Therefore when we offered
10 per cent preference — that is the average of what was offered over
the whole (if Dur tariff — that is a very much larger proportion than
offering 10 per cent on a tariff such as that of the United States or
Canada, or any other place. We went to the extreme limit, I may
call it. of offer! ufj' l" per cent, when our average is only l.") — that is,
that Great Britain would have the advantage of all our markets at
15 per cent, while the States would have to pay us the 25 or 10 per
cent more ; and surely if Great Britain's manufactures are so much
superior, as they were described this morning, to those of America
and other parts of the world, with the 10 per cent it ought to be a
wrotty good thing for theui. That 10 per cent, is applicable on an
immense volume of importation that we do not produce to-day in our
manufacture in Australia. To give you an idea — I will not detain
you to give you every item — our imports of steel and iron into Aus-
tralia average 7,000,000/. a year, and a very large proportion of that
comes from the United States. We want all we can get from Great
Britain, and I want to tell you a little incident. Tou will bear with
me for a moment, but this is really emblematical of what Great
Britain is not doing. At the present moment in Canada (that is not
a foreign country, and therefore we do not complain of thpui), in the
United .States especially, and in Germany, they adapt their methods
with a great measure of foresight so to our requirements that they
absolutely kill the British trade. There was a place called tne Clyde
Works manufactory near Sydney, where they were supposed to manu-
facture farming machinei"y, principally for Australia. I used to see
coming from Melbourne as I went over, train loads of manufactured
machinery, some coming from the United States and some from
Canada. T asked thi> managing director of the Cl.vde works how
many agricultural ploughs he had sold that year, and he said: " I do
not know how many"; I said: " Have you sold any? " and he said,
" Yes, one " ; and that year I suppose there were thousands, almost
tens of thousands, which came into our farming districts. I said to
him : " As long as you do what you are doing you will be ruined, and
"you will not get the trade. What sort of plough do you make?"
and he answered : " A single-furrow plough." I told him that the
farmer scarcely ever xised less than a three or four-furrow plough,
and they are catered for by the ingenious American. Now, this is
the typical part of it — I was referring to a man being a Free Trader
because his grandfather was, and this man's answer to me was :
" Well, I cannot help it, what is good for old Great Britain is good
enough for me." That was his answer, and his works closed shortly
afterwards. The nian is alive still, but he is a Protectionist now.
352 COLOXIAL COTiFEREyCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
.1 recognise that this position is an awkward one for the Imperial
Government. I should feel it awkward if I were in their place, but
at the same time it is not insurmountable. I recognise that a general
Trade.''' <?lf'^tioi^ 'la* taken place, and it is said that Free Trade was one of the
(Sir William Pi''in'ipal questions before the electors (whether it is so or not I do
Lyne.) not know). What we are proposing, however, is not a question of
Free Trade; it is a question, as described by one of those I have just
quoted from, to be dealt with under special circumstances and not
interfering with the principle of Free Trade, therefore it might
reasonably be considered under that heading, and not interfere with
the question of Free Trade or Protection. If the Ministry are afraid
of tnat, or if they do not want to do anything to interfere with what
they conceive to be the decision of the electors, we in our country are
often told that a good way to get over that difficulty is by way of
referendum ; they could easily remove it from party obligations, and
it is important I think to be dealt with in that way if it cannot be
dealt with in any other — put it to the electors of this community free
from any other question, free from the Education Act, free from any
combination of any kind, and ask the British people whether they are
in favour of drawing closer together the outlying parts of the Empire,
the offshoots from themselves, their flesh and blood coming from
Great Britain, and give us some consideration in a preference, even,
we will say, in food and drink.
I was surprised at the answer this morning to the interrogation
made about wine. What on earth there is to prevent the Government
and the British people from allowing some consideration to us in
regard to our wine I do not know. I forget at this moment what the
tariff in France is, but in my own electorate a large proportion of the
wine that is produced there goes to France — it does not come here —
and it is then mixed up with the French light wine and sent to Great
Britain. We would like to treat directly in our wines with Great
Brtain, and there can be no question of dearer food. There are other
things; but- J refer to that only.
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE : You have got the eheaix>st rate on your
wine, I may point out.
Sir WILLIAM LY]S:E: It used to be 6s.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: I went into it a little while ago in the
case i>f Portugal and Spain, and I found that Australian wine came
in under the lower rate. I am not sure about the Cape.
Sir W'l 1,1,1AM LYKE: I want you to consider us a part and par-
cel of the Empire and not to treat us regarding our trade as though
we wen- Russians (.Mr. Doakin: or Italians or Spaniards), as you now
treat us. You treat us as though we were aliens, and the speech I
listened to this morning makes me think we have little chance of any
alteration.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We give you the lowest rate, much lower
than Spain or Portugal.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: How much is it?
Mr. DEAKIN : Are you not hoping to make commercial treaties
with other nations^ Why not nuike commercial treaties with your
own Dominions?
Mr. LLOYD GEOR(iK: Thnt is a question which is entirely
open.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1007 353
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I thank the Conference for listening to Tenth Day.
me for so long, but I felt ,1 had to place on record my views, because ^"''™*y'
this is an historical Conference I think, and will be known as an ll
historical Conference, and I certainly hope it is not going to stop Preferential
here — that the Government will see their way clear to meet us in Trade,
some way or other and show to our people that we are not those aliens Qggj.„Q)
which the treatment we receive seems to indicate.
Adding just a word with regard to what Sir Joseph Ward said the
other day. I do hope that some means will be adopted to shorten the
time between Australia and New Zealand and Great Britain. In that
to my mind, or on that, hangs a great deal. We cannot shorten the
distance, but if money can quicken the time and bring your people
to us and our ]iPople to you. as our railways did before federation, and
they brought about federation in Australia, it will do an immense
amount of good. I have spoken to my Prime ]\Iinister on this more
than once. You talk about emigration : I cannot see that it is going
to be very successful at present, but spend your money, even if it
amounts to half a million annually, in giving cheap and quick com-
munication and we will soon have plenty of emigrants, also have our
people amongst you, and yours amongst us.
Dr. SMARTT : After the f ui., exhaustive, and I might almost say
the forcible manner in which this subject has been discussed, it really
leaves very little further for any member of the Conference to say,
and I feel that all the more. Lord Ji,lgin, after the very able and
clever speech to which we have listened from the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, because without desiring in any way to appear to criticise
that extremely able statement from his point of view, I, as a member
of the Conference, and one taking a deep interest in trying to arrive
at some solution of binding more closely together the different por-
tions of the British Empire, could not help feeling that that speech,
clever as it was, was a brilliant example of special pleading. It was
a speech which, perhaps, might have been admirably delivered in
support of the doctrine of Free Trade as against any controversion
of that doctrine, but I must say I did look for some more sympathetic
desire, while maintaining the doctrine of Free Trade (with which we,
as members of this Conference, do not want in any way whatsoever
to interfere) to try and arrive at some arrangement whereby the
differences which separate us might be bridged over instead of meet-
ing us with the proposition that it was absolutely and entirely impos-
sible.
I can only say. Lord Elgin, that looking round the table and see-
ing the other members of the Government, we may, perhaps yet, get
from them a still more sympathetic treatment of the case as we have
presented it. I have no doubt that you. Lord Elgin, with your inti-
mate association with the Colonial Office and your knowledge of the
fact that it is not in any way whatsoever a matter of " squalid bonds "
that makes us urge this question, but an ardent desire to do something
whereby you will link up in the future more strongly the bnnd.'^ that
bind together the different portions of the Empire. With your know-
ledge and intimate association with the Colonies, perhaps you will be
able to treat us in a more sympathetic manner than the Chancellor of
the Exchequer found himself able to do this morning; because this
is absolutely certain, that you have now in the British Colonies large
numbers of people who either were bom in Great Brtain or who have
had intimate associations with Great Britain, but as your Colonies
58—23 , '
354 COLOyiAL COXFEREXCK. 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Tenth Day. increase in size, as your population increases more and more, there
-"^oi^^y* will be vast numbers of those people who cannot have the old attach-
ment and the old sympathy with the Mother Country that existing
Pr^erential colonists have, and I feel convinced that in the distant future if
,jj ■ something is not done to unite more strongly than by mere sentiment
Smartt.) the bonds of Empire, the result may be such as many of us here
would not at all wish to contemplate.
^ow, I think. Lord Elgin, I would perhaps be iu order in referring
as well to the speech of the representative of India as to that of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. I followed very carefully the speech of
Sir James Mackay, repre-senting India, and .1 was really surprised
when he said he regretted to say the Government of India was at
variance with the views expressed by the majority of the other repre-
sentatives of the outlying portions of the Empire.
Mr. DEAKIN : The self-governing portions.
Dr. SMARTT: The self-governing portions of the Empire; and
were he here at the present moment I would have liked to have had
the opportunity of asking him the question whether, although that
may be the view of the Government of India, is it the view of the
majority of Anglo-Indians? — and is it the view of the majority of the
Indian people? !My advices tell me it is not the view of the majority
of Anglo-Indians; and it is also not the view of the majority of the
Indian people, but though the Indian representative said that, from
the point of view of his Government, he was entirely at variance with
the arguments put forward b.v the representatives of the selfgovern-
ing Colonies, he still, in the close of his remarks, went on to show us
that he was extremely in sympathy with some of our proposals be-
cause, while stating that preferential treatment would be disad-
vantageous to India, almost in the same breath he stated that it would
be a great advantage to India if he could have some reduction on the
duty upon tobacco — Indian toDacco being a specially low valued
article as compared wth higher valued articles from other countries ;
and he finished up his remarks by saying that he hoped that what-
ever advantages the self -governing portions of the Empire gave to
Great Britain, they would give those advantages to India. I think
I am quite right in thus interpreting what he said; and really we
might reply that, while we would bo only too delighted to do so, surely
we must say that there must be some recognition on the part of India
in the way of reciprocating the advantages which he is desirous that
we should give to that important portion of the Empire.
Now, Lord Elgin, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated in his
opening remarks that Imperial unity cannot be furthered by ignoring
local conditions and local sentiment. With that statement I think
every member of this Conference agrees, but my contention is that
there appears, on the part of tiie Chancellor, a tendency to ignore
local conditions and local sentiment; and it is because we consider
that the local conditions are of such a character and that the local
sentiment is so strong that we do think wc have a right to appeal to
the Imperial Government, and expect that, while not departing from
their fi.xed policy of Free Trade, they will be prepared with some
means to meet us on those articles on which they have already a
tariff, withoiit asking them to go so far as to put up a tariff upon
articles which, at the present moment, are practically subject to no
tariff whatsoever.
I was surprised when, as an example, Mr. Askwith gave us his
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, VMt
355
1907.
Preferential
Tiade.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
historical resume of the reason of our loss of the American colonies; Tenth Day.
because really the position is so different from what we are asking 2nd May
for. The reason of the loss of the American Colonies was that Great
Britain desired to force her tariff in the interests of her manufac-
turers, without any reciprocal advantages whatsoever; but that is not
what we ask for. What we ask for is that there should be some
mutual understanding, that there should be some mutual consider-
ation ; and I do think that we have a right to expect, at the hands
of the Imperial Government, that they will earnestly try and meet
us, and reason with us, and see if there is no way whatsoever in
which they can meet a sentiment which is very strongly existent
throughout the length and oreadth of the Empire.
When Mr. Asquith, in his able address, stated that he felt con-
vinced that if this question of Free Trade as against Protection was
to be laid before the House of Commons the vote would be two to
one or three to one against any alteration of the principle. We do
not ask the .Imperial Government in an.v way to alter principles to
which they are pledged, and which are their conscientious convic-
tions, but I do make bold to say this, Lord Elgin, that if ^Mr. Asquith
would go to the House of Commons, and, while retaining the doc-
trine of Free Trade, would plead as strongly the possibilities of meet-
ing us in some way, as he has pleaded hard in the opposite direction,
the majority might be entirely different. Because I hold before me
at the present moment a Bill dealing with the tobacco industry in
Ireland, and it was news to me, and I have no doubt it was news
to many people in Great Britain, that the laws of this country are
of such a character as to make it absolutely prohibitory to grow to-
bacco, which could be made a very profitable industry in Ireland.
That really brings me back to the fact that although things may
have been very good 60 years ago, really there comes a period of
time when it is worth while considering whether they should not be
altered.
Now with regard to the tobacco: I am perfectly certain that Ire-
land would accept it. You are now introducing a Bill withdrawing
the restrictions in Ireland when the Excise Department have made
proper arrangements for collecting the excise; and surely a reduc-
tion in the duty on tobacco mighc be accepted by the Imperial Gov-
ernment and by the House of Commons. .1 believe at the present
moment there are arrangements whereby the Imperial Government
have committed themselves to the principles of preference in con-
nection with tobacco that is grown in Ireland ; and I should like Mr.
Lloyd George to tell me if I am incorrect, although it may be stat-
ed by the Chancellor that it is grown for experimental purposes ;
and whereas the excise upon ordinary tobacco coming into England
is 3s. a lb., the excise upon this tobacco is 2s. a lb., making thereby
a differentiation in favour of the Irish article, even although you may
meet any argimient by stating that it is only for experimental pur-
poses. Surely it would be very welcome to the Irish members, who
are strong supporters of the Government, as also to the Colonies and
India. That will at once reduce by 80 the majority which Mr. As-
quith said would be opposed to any alteration of the tariff. Surely
it would be advantageous to Ireland, which has great possibilities for
growing tobacco; and surely it would be enormously advantageous to
South Africa and to Australia if, instead of putting up the duties,
you were to reduce those duties to your own people who can grow
tobacco within the British Empire. I hope. Lord Elgin, this is a
356
COLONIAL COSFERENCE, 1901
(Dr.
Smartt.)
• 7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. question upon which you, and the other members of the Government,
2iid May, have not yet definitely made up your minds.
!^ There is another matter (wine) that was referred to very fully by
Preferential Dr. Jameson; and I really was surprised when the Chancellor of the
Trade. Exchequer said, while Dr. Jameson was speaking yesterday, that no
country had given a preferential tariff in so far as alcohol was con-
cerned. I have before me here the reciprocal arrangement that has
been entered into between South Africa under her Customs Union
and the Commonwealth of Australia, and I find in that tariff, not-
withstanding what has been said to the contrary, there is a differen-
tiation made in favour of Soutli African alcohol. That is, that al-
though the Commonwealth of Australia are producers of alcohol
themselves, having under our preferential Treaty protected alcohol
for reciprocal considerations that have been given them by the Colony
of the Cape of Good Hope, they are prepared to receive our alco-
hol at an advantage over that of foreign countries. With regard to
our wine, my friend Sir Wilfrid Laurier will bear me out, that
whereas wine entering Canada pays, I think, Is. Qid. a gallon up to
26 degrees of strength, plus 30 per cent, ad valorem, and wines ex-
ceeding 26 degrees but not exceeding 40 degrees are charged an ad-
ditional duty of \\d. a gallon for each degree, the whole ad valoretn
duty on Cape wines up to 40 degrees is rebated under the reciprocal
arrangements we have with Canada in the ease of that duty ; and it
is especially suitable to Cape Colony, many of our wines being of
high alcoholic strength. We are relieved from the 30 per cent, ad
valorem duty on the wines of over 26 per cent. ; and our wines up to
40 per cent, are entirely relieved from the duty. That was the re-
ciprocal arrangement entered into with Canada, and I believe Sir
Wilfrid Laurier will agree with me that it is to the mutual benefit
of South Africa and Canada, because we are not a wood-producing
country, and surely if we require wood and lumber in South Africa,
is it not better, is it not just, is it not right, that we should sacrifice
something to buy that lumber from another portion of the British
Dominions rather than buy it from a foreign country — every in-
crease in their trade assisting them in competing against Great Brit-
ain in securing their hold on the markets of the world ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Would you extend that to wool?
Dr. SMARTT: vVhat I would at once say with regard to that is
that I am not prepared to bring the matter forward now. It is a
matter to be fully considered by the British Government; and it is
a matter to be fully considered by the British people — the whole posi-
tion as to what reciprocal arrangements will bo to our mutual ad-
vantage; but I do say that because you may not be prepared to bring
that forward at the present moment in connection with wool or in
connection with food, it should be no reason to prevent your consider-
ing it in connection with wine and tobacco; and perhaps in connec-
tion with sugar, on all of wliich you can reduce your duties, and in
each case you will assist .your fe^ow countrymen in the Dependencies
of Great Britain beyond the Seas. I might at once answer further
tn that, that, as Sir Williiiin Lyno has pointed out, perhaps the Is.
d\ity upon corn did not in any way cost the consumer in England
anything extra, and I will call as a witness, in favour of that, the
representative of India, who told us that notwithstanding the surtax
upon tea in Russia, the Indian people continued to send increasing
quantities to Russia. Wliat was the reason? Tliat the Indian people
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 357
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
had to reduce the prices to meet the conditions which existed, and the Tenth Day.
consumer in Russia was paying nothing extra whatsoever for the tea 2°^ May,
otherwise they could not possibly have materially increased the ^^^'
amount of their supplies to that country; and the same principles Treferential
might apply to corn. Trade.
Now, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that Great Britain Smf'tt.)
was retaining her predominance in the markets of the world, and he
gave us figures to show that the imports and exports during the last
50 OT 60 years (I did not take a note of his figures) had materially
increased, and that the proportion of those imports and exports had
practically remained upon the same basis. That is true. But have
not the imports and exports of other countries that, 50 years ago,
had practically no manufactures at all, increased in a much greater
proportion than the imports and exports of Great Britain? I think
it only right. Lord Elgin, here, in the interest of British manufac-
turers as well as of the British Empire, to make a statement which
can be substantiated by facts; viz., that we in the Colonies do not
feel that Great Britain is retaining her predominance in manufac-
turing goods as she did in the past. At the present moment the
Colony of the Cape of Good Hope, to secure their rolling stock and
railway material from the manufacturers of Great Britain, is ob-
liged to instruct her Agent-General to give 10 per cent, preference
to the manufacturers within the Empire; and I ask you. Lord Elgin
or .1 ask anybody if that is not an advantage to the British manu-
facturers, and if it -s also not an advantage to the British workman
who turns out the things which the manufacturer supplies? Some
short time ago, we ordered a million and a quarter pounds' worth
of rolling stock. It may be a small order, but on that million and
a quarter pounds' worth of rolling stock, we were prepared to back
our opinions by paying 125,000Z. extra to purchase it within Great
Britain, and I say unhesitatingly, that had we refused to pay extra,
that order would have gone to a Continental nation, and gone to a
nation which was Britain's greatest trade rival. Surely we must
acknowledge that every order of that sort that does go to a rival of
Great Britain allows that country still further to protect her means
of manufacture and allows her still further to improve her naval
power and everything that appertains to assisting and protecting
her trade. ■
There is another matter I might mention with regard to the pre-
dominence of British manufactures. I think if I were to go to Man-
chester and discuss matters with the Manchester print manufac-
turers, if they were honest they would recognise that during the last
10 or 15 years, owing to the admirable commercial and technical
training that the German people are receiving, Manchester at the
present moment has an enormous competitor, especially in her prints
and things of that sort, owing to the magnificent commercial training
that the workmen of Germany are receiving, and Germany is thus
securing a great hold in these articles in the markets of the world
and in the markets of the British Colonies; and were it not the case
that in the Cape Colony we give 25 per cent, preference in our tariff
on manufactures of that character, Germany would more and more
siipplant Manchester in supplying those goods which are so largely
\ised by the people of the country and form one of the great staples
of dress of the native population. I see that Mr. Lloyd George per-
haps does not agree with me.
358 COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Xo.
""1907"^' ^^' SMAETT: Well, I know that if you would get a return of
the amount of print and art things of that sort that are entering the
P'"^^'"^"^'^'^^ Cape Colony, you would be surprised to find how, by degrees, Germany
,jj ' is securing a market which was formerly held by British manufac-
Smartt.) turers.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Cotton fabrics?
Dr. SMAETT : Prints especially, those cheap designs of prints
with colouring and everything of that sort. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer has said, and to be sure it is very depressing to us to hear
it, that the people of this country for three years have had the case
of preferential tariffs put before them in the most admirable manner,
but nevertheless they had unmistakably and unalterably made wp
their minds. I am very sorry to hear it. Personally I do not be-
lieve that it really and truly describes the situation, because I think
anybody who looks round here will acknowledge that there is a
very strong undercurrent among the people of Great Britain in the
direction of recognising that tariffs must be treated scientifically
like everything else, and that there are periods of time when you
must revise everything you have done in the past, and see what is
necessary to be done in the future, and T hope that that is the spirit
in which the present Government will look into the whole situa-
tion.
With regard to the statements which have been made as to the
amount of Colonial goods, especially raw products, going to foreign
countries, I must say. Lord Elgin, that I cannot view that with the
same equanimity with which the representative of India or the
Chancellor of the Exchequer viewed it, because what does it mean ;
The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the wealth of London ;
he referred to London being the clearing-house of the world, but
surely your returns show that London's pre-eminence is day by day
and year by year becoming undermined. Surely anybody that has
any knowledge of the wool industry in the Dependencies knows that,
year by year and day by day, that industry which formerly ramified
in London is gradually leaving the iiondon market, and is being
sold direct on the various markets of Europe. You may say tliat is
necessary, that it reduces the cost of the raw material, but surely
when Sir James Maekay and the Chancellor say that the countries
thai are supplying these articles are still getting more largely goods
frnni ihe foreign couiitWes in iiaynient, I would say at once,
would it not be better if by some mutual understanding we should
see that that wool is worked by the looms of Bradford, and that the
goods made from that wool are sent to the Colonies from the looms
of Bradford, and not sent to the Colonies from German or other
man\ifact(>ries? This is the reason why we desire to ask you fully
to consider this question, because there is no doubt that in the
Colonies we see day by day that we are receiving more foreign sup-
plies, and it is because those of us especially who feel the deepest
sentiments of attachment to the Empire realise that without prefer-
ential trade it will be impossible to prevent that drift of trade which
is taking place that we so strongly urge the Imperial Government
carefully, dispassionately, and absolutely disassociated from political
considerations, to reconsider the whole situation.
With regard to food: I can thoroughly understand the feeling
of a largo section of the people of Great Britain who hesitate to do
COLOMAL COXFEKENCE. 1001 359
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
anything that might be said to increase the cost of living, but have Tenth Day.
the Government of Great Britain, or have the peoi^le of Great Britain 2nd May,
ever considered what their position would be in the ease of a great '_
European war? We are always told that while the Navy holds the Preferential
seas England will be able to feed herself; but supposing you had a Trade.
great European war, and you had a combination of great wheat- g ^ A >
producing countries against you, and by your policy you refused to
encourage Canada, Australia, and other portions of the Empire — •
with their enormous resources — the command of the seas would be
useless if the countries who grow wheat were banded against you
and you would not ship that wheat to feed your starving population.
Surely that is worthy of consideration on the part of an Empire
whose existence in a period of war depends on being able to feed her
people.
Mr. WINSTON CHUECHILL: You have suggested rather a
curious alliance.
Dr. SMAK'l r : Mr. Winston Churchill suggests it would be
rather a curious alliance. We have seen extraordinary alliances ;
and I say that for the safety of a great Empire like Great Britain
and her Dependencies, we have no right to take any chance in the
matter, however small that chance may be. Nobody would take a
chance ol that character in his ordinary business matters; he would
insure his goods to the fullest extent and I do not think, although
the contingencies may be very far distant, we have any right what-
soever to take a chance of that sort.
Now, Lord Elgin, I feel I have really taken up perhaps too long
the time of the Conference, but I am only mentioning these things
because I feel them very acutely. I should like to assure you, Sir,
and I believe I speak the views of everybody in this room, that we
have no political considerations in any way whatsoever, as between
the two great parties in this country; we only consider that it is
our duty to urge upon the people of Great Britain the advisability
of considering whether there is not some small way in which they
can meet what in the Colonies is considered to be a matter of vital
importance to the future well-being of the Empire.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I suggest, Lord Elgin, that now we
might adjourn because I should like, before I say anything, to hear
from Mr. Deakin what his view is about the treaties. T cannot deal
with that now, and I think it is so much better, as Sir Wilfrid
Laurier has suggested, to deal with the whole thing at once. It
would be an advantage to me if Mr. Deakin were able to put that
point before I reply.
Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I know he is not prepared this after-
noon.
Mr. DEAKIN : I had no expectation that this would come for-
ward, and have not the papers with me.
Dr. SMARTT : As the figures were quoted, I wish to put the case
of the Cape as fairly as possible with regard to the condition of the
wine industry. Previous to the Cobden Treaty of 1860, I think we
sent over 800,000 gallons of wine to Great Britain. When Ifr. Cob-
den went to France with a view to getting a market for certain
British manufacturers a reciprocal understanding was arrived at
whereby France reduced her duties upon certain manufactures and
360 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 LDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Day. were then so desirous of appearing not to ask for advantages for our-
2°'i^*5'» selves, that we said they must be reduced to the whole of the world,
'- we being the only people who benefitted by them. Great Britain, on
Preferential her part, reduced considerably her duty upon silk ; and at one sweep
Trade. ^f ^jjg ^^^ reduced her duties upon French wine (which were 5s. &d.
Smartt.) ** ^^^* time) by 2s. 9c?. per gallon. From that moment the wine in-
dustry in the Cape, which under preference was becoming a very
profitable industry and by this time would have been an enormous in-
dustry, was absolutely strangled owing to the tact that many of the
French wines were of slight alcoholic strength, and they absolutely
at once took possession of the market. At the present moment our
wine exports to Great Britain J do not think are more than 5,O0OZ.
or 8,000/. a year. Surely that is a case in which Australia and the
Cape could be met by the British Government as sympathetically as
Canada has done on the question?
Sir WILFEID LAURIER: Shall we take up the treaty question
on Monday morning?
CHAIRMAN : I understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would prefer to have Tuesday, but if you will allow me I will com-
municate with him and fix either Monday or Tuesday.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: .If you could take up this question
on Monday it would be preferable, I think.
CHAIRMAN: 1 proposed tuat we should take naturalization and
other subjects on Monday.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It must either be Monday or Wednesday
for me. Have you enough to go on with on the Monday?
CHAIRMAN : It has been suggested once or twice in the course
of the discussion that we should have a publication of this debate, and
I have to say that, so far as we are concerned, we have no objection,
if the Colonial representatives have not, and, of course, the interval
will probably allow this to be in your hands.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: It is not proposed to publish
until the debates are complete.
:Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I wish it to be distinctly understood
that the whole of the Government case has not been presented, al-
though I am not vain enough to think that my argument is going
to affect the thing at all.
IMPERIAL SURTAX ON FOltEIGN IMPORTS.
T „,.: ,1 Mr. DEAKIN : I was suggesting to the Chancellor of the Ex-
Impei'ial .i , , .• i • i i > i i • •
Surtax chequer to-day that possibly before this debate concluded, as it is
"". closely related although rather as a substitute than a development of
Imports. ""'* proposals, we should consider the proposition originally sub-
mitted by Mr. Ilofmeyr, afterwards elaborated by Sir George Syden-
ham Clarke, and since more or less favourably criticised by different
writers. The proposition is to impose 1 per cent, or some small diiij"
of that sort all over the Empire, the proceeds of which should be
devoted to Imperial purposes in each country in proportion to the
sum raised. This may be looked at from several points of view, and
if we are unable to obtain any possible preforcnco, reciprocal or other-
wise, from the Britisli Government, might it not be worth while
to look into this question? It would fulfil some of the ideas and as-
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
361
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
pirations expressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself for
unity of action in connection with improved means of communica-
tion, cables, steam services, and the lise, because by this means the
funds for the development could be provided without in the least
d{>gree affecting the fiscal policy of any one of the countries concern-
ed. It does not touch the fiscal question in any way. because the
1 per cent., or whatever was agreed upon, would be levied in con-
nection not only with any existing tariff, but would still irrespective
of any alteration of the tariff. I mean an extra 1 per cent, imposed
on all foreign goods and distributed in proportion to the contribu-
tions made.
Dr. SMART : You put 1 per cent, upon everything.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, on everything. I might mention, in con-
clusion— I could not launch into a debate at this moment — that there
is one further possibility: that if in the United Kingdom that proposal
was not favoured because it was regarded as a little difficult to collect
so small a sum as 1 per cent, from a great variety of imports, it is
perfectly possible for the Government and Parliament of the United
Kingdom if they so prefer to provide their quota by a grant equiva-
lent to the amount that would be raised by a duty of one per cent, if
levied.
I want to put the fiscal question right out of consideration in
this connection, and want to recognise the difference in the situation
of the Mother Country, but if you are going to undertake Imperial
purposes it must be done more or less by expenditure of what may
be termed Imperial funds.
Mr. LLOYD GLORGii: It does not matter to the Colonies how
we raise our contribution.
Mr. DEAKIN : Not the least.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: How we raise ours is entirely a matter
for ourselves.
Mr. DEA1\IN: That is what I am trying to point out. This is
at least a possible and practical proposal for raising funds for the
various purposes to which reference has been made. Otherwise you
will cast us upon our resources, each of us going to our own Par-
liaments to propose, so far as we share in them some expenditure
which would require to be made upon any new combined effort for
a better steamship service, better cables, for the Suez Canal project —
about which I long since communicated with the Imperial Govern-
ment, and upon which my friend, Sir Joseph Ward, has made a
bold proposition.
Wherever the funds have to be found, the question of finding them
will be met in all the different parts in the same way, with the pos-
sible exception of the United Kingdom. If common action could be
devised by which certain funds were raised and set apart, that would
simplify Imperial action and make for unity.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not think so; I do not think it
would simplify it at all.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I Mtould not be prepared to agree to
that proposition of yours, Mr. Deakin, to levy a special duty for a
special purpose. We have just fixed our tariff, and it has cost us
months of very hard work. We have fixed our duty on tne scale
which we think most acceptable and most convenient to our people
Tenth Day.
2nd May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax
on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
362 COLONIAL COyFEEENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tenth Dav. ^i^h the point of view of the revenue first of all and other expenses
2nd May, incidental to the revenue. !Now I would not be prepared, as far as
^^^'- Canada is concerned, to levy either 1 per cent, or any sum at all
Imperial above what we have done. If the view we entertain of having a
Surtax better service between England and your country, Australia, through
Foreiiin Canada, is to be viewed favourably, and I hope it will be, we shoiild
Imports, have to take our share of the burden, and we should be prepared to
(Sir Wilfrid take a general share, but if in addition to the tariff which has cost
l.aurier.) ^g months of labour to prepare we were to add another 1 per cent.
or any amount at all it might mean a considerable disturbance. Sir
William Lyne. who is aceustomed to frame tariffs, knows how diffi-
cult it is to adjust a tariff with regard to the exact amount the old
tariff can bear or the exact amount it cannot bear and 1 or 2 per
cent, sometimes gives rise to very serious discussion.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I thought this was only a proposal with
regard to foreign goods.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It is an additional tariff, call it
what you please. Ton propose to add 1 or 2 per cent., and I do not
care what kind of goods it is. The goods are foreign on which you
levy the duties, or if that is not so then you introduce another element
of disturbance. What you propose. Mr. Deakin, is that in addition
to the tariff which in Canada is levied on an industry which in Aus-
tralia is also levied up, you should put another one per cent. From
ray experience that question of one per cent, more or less causes very
serious debates in the preparation of the tariff and I would not be
prepared to follow that course, as in my opinion it would upset all
that we have in view in framing the tariff.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I am inclined to think. Lord Elgin, that
as the matter is a new one altogether to me, at least, that it had better
be deferred.
Mr. DEAKI^X : As we were deferring it I mentioned it now in
order that when suggested again on the next occasion, it may be ex-
amined without further delay. The President of the Board of Trade
could be heard to speak upon it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I would be prepared to speak to it, but
I agree with Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Sir Joseph Ward that it is
simpl.v adding another complieation to the one which is involved in
the preferential proposal.
Mr. DEAKIN : This is a very complex Empire, and only complex
means can deal with its needs.
:\Ir. LLOYD GEORGE: I think that very often the simplest pro-
posals are those which deal most effectively with complicated situa-
tions.
Dr. JAMESON: I think it would be better to defer the discus-
sion for the present.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: T sliould just like to say tluit at the first
blush. I am inclined to tliink that this suggestion of a surtax is a
mistake from the point of view jf New Zealand. I am a supporter
of Preference on certain articles as between our country and the
Old Cuunlry. If there is any intermediate pmiiosal of putting an
all-round surtax upon all foreign goods into the Old (\>initry as
well as into our countries that is going to divert the more material
one from the point of view in which I regard it in trying to bring
Ward.)
COLONIAL COXI-EREXCE, 1901 363
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
about in the future an interchange by way of Preference between Tenth Day.
Britain and her Colonies. It would mean in our country that all ^""J-M^J''
we would require to do in our Customs tariff next year would be '—
that instead of saying we had, say, an increase of 10 per celiti Imperial
against foreign goods, which we have now to some extent upon some "on ^
articles, it would mean making it 11 or 12J per cent. I do not think Foreign
that is the best way, and my belief is that it is far better for us by Imports,
steamship and mail subsidies and reducing the cost of our cabling ^^'^/°j®P^
to try to bring about improved conditions which will be generally
bcmeflcial. I do not like to commit myself to the idea of Mr. Hof-
meyr's suggestion — I have not read it myself — of a surtax. I think
it better to work for preference upon certain articles between the
old country and our countries.
Dr. SMARTT: You could ear-mark one per cent, of your prefer-
ential tariff for Imperial purposes.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : What occurs to me is that if ever we get
preference established it will be on three or four articles at first, and.
if we had an overriding surtax I am afraid it would give grounds
for those opposed to it to say: "As you have a surtax you do not
want preference."
Adjourned to ilonday next at 10.30 o'clock.
364 COLONIAL COXFEREyCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh eleventh day.
Day.
6th May, Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
l^"^- IIOXDAY, 6th May 1907.
Present;
The Eight Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (TPresident^.
The Eight Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.3., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Sjiartt, Commissioner of Public Works (Cape
Colony).
The Honourable F. E. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
'The Eight Honourable Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamen-
tary Under Secretary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., Iv.C.M.G., Permanent Under Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E., on behalf of the Indian
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,)
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., j
Joint Secretaries.
Mr. W. A. EoBiNSON,
Assistant Secretary.
Also present:
The Right Honourable H. IT. Asquith, M.P., Chancellor of the
E.xchequer.
The Right Honourable D. Lloyd George, M.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
Mr. W. RuNciMAN, M.P., Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
Mr. H. E. Keari.ey, ~S\.V. Parlinmpntary Secretary to the Board
of Trade.
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, C.B., permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fox, C.B., Coinptroller-Gencrnl of the Commercial,
Statistical, and Labour Departments of the Board of Trade.
Mr. G. J. Stanley. C.M.G., of the Board of Trade.
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 365
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHAIEAf AN : I think when we broke off at our last meeting, Eleventh
Mr. Lloyd George was going to address the Conference. Day.
6th May,
Dr. JAMESON: Before Mr. Lloyd George says what I presume ^^'■
will be the final word on the subject of Preferential Trade, might I p,ef^tial
be permitted still to say a few words. I feel bound, as I said the Trade,
other day, to do my utmost on this subject, because of what the Cape
embodied in the second Eesolution which is brought forward, which,
as I explained the other day, of course is no possible threat, but
merely a warning. I daresay the members of the Conference have
seen in the papers telegrams from South Africa during the last few
days showing that while we were discussing this question in this
room, the most able statesman we have in South Africa at present
was also speaking at that hour in South Africa on this subject and
emphasising very strongly what I have tried to put here, namely, that
reciprocity was an absolute necessity if the existing preference in
South Africa, at all events, was likely to be continued. Feeling that,
my Lord, I felt that I must make a very last effort in order not to
get really a definite answer which after Mr. Asquith's speech of
course we know we cannot get ; but if I could even get an expression,
not of opinion, but an expression from the Imperial Government that
they would be willing to consider us in these difficulties — if I could
get that, I feel that possibly I may have done something. I am look-
ing forward from Mr. Lloyd George, perhaps, to getting a somewhat
more s\-mpathetic answer than from the able, clear, and decisive
refusal which we have had from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
When we were asked in the Colonies by the Secretary of State for
the Colonies to frame resolutions that we wanted to bring before the
Conference I sat down to frame resolutions on this question of pre-
ference, and I thought of several; in fact there were four lines on
which I formed resolutions; one a very strong one, and so on,
getting down to the smallest. I thought perhaps it would be much
better merely to send in general resolutions: first, the confirmation
of the Resolutions of 1902 ; and, secondly, the slight warning on the
want of reciprocity, and until I heard the discussion here to see what
practically we might get, however small, so as not to ask for some-
thing too small if we were going to get something bigger. Therefore
it is that I would like now, having heard the full discussion on this
subject, to move a further resolution which I now read : " That while
" affirming the Resolution of 1902 this Conference is of opinion that
'■ as the British Government throujih the South African Customs
" L'nion, which comprises the Basutoland and Bechuanaland Protec-
'■ torates, do at present allow a preference against foreign countries
"to the Tnifed Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and all
" other Brit if b possessions granting such reciprocity. His Majesty's
'■ Gi.'vcnnueiii should now take into consideration the possibility of
'■ granting a like preference to all portions of the Empire on the
'• present dutinble articles in the Briti-sh Tariff."
I move that resolution. Lord Elgin, and in doing so I would like
to emphasise the mildness of it. I am not asking His Majesty's Gov-
ernment to commit itself to anything except to consider the possi-
bihty of carrying into effect the object of the resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN : in fact, all that you propose here is the granting
of a like preference. Of course, the preference granted in South
Africa was a preference by reduction of duties, not by increase of
duties.
366 COLOXIJ.L COXFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh Dr. /AMESON: Undoubtedly.
Day.
Cth May, ^^^- DEAKI^N^ : Consequently, this Resolution is, when explained,
1907, narrower than might be supposed. It relates only to preference
Preferential ^^ reduction. Is that your intention ?
Trade j)j. JAMESOX: That is our intention.
(Mr.
Deakin.) ^Ir. DEAIvIN : Under these circumstances, to take into considera-
tion a proposal is something a Government does verj' frequently in
the course of its life, and to take into consideration the possibility
of granting preference, which amounts to a preference only by re-
duction, is surely something to which no objection can be taken. I
hope the consideration will be favourable, or as favourable as the
members of the Government can give it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER:"l think, Dr. Jameson, that might be
postponed. Put it on the table and postpone it until we come to the
main Resolution.
Dr. JAMESON: I am pleased to do that, but I merely wished to
get it in before Mr. Lloyd George answered.
CHAIRMAN: Nobody has moved anything yet?
Dr. JAMESON: No.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : But it is a notice of motion.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Lord Elgin and Gentlemen,— Dr. Jame-
son has not only raised a fresh issue, but he has presented it in quite
a new form to the consideration of His Majesty's Government. But
still I am afraid it is really presenting the same question to us in
substance and in fact, and I think it is very important when we come
to discuss matters of this kind that we should be perfectly frank
with each other, and the only way in which we can help each other
is by recognising freely each other's difficulties and the position in
which we are respectively placed in reference to those who have com-
missioned us to attend this Conference. Of course, I would not object
personally — and I am sure His Majesty's Government would not
object — to take into consideration any suggestion that came from a
responsible Minister like Dr. Jameson, who represents an important
Colony of the Empire. But it would not be fair for me not to state
that in my judgment that consideration would not be likely to induce
us to change our fundamental policy with regard to preference. We
are not in a position to pledge ourselves to anything which will in-
volve the setting up of a "tariff on food stuffs and raw material in
tliis country. If Dr. Jameson moans something short of tliat, some-
tliiug that would not pledge us to that, then I am perfectly certain
His Majesty's Government would be willing to consider anytliing
wliieh would help the trade between the United Kingdom and the
Colonies. But he has not informed me more explicitly on the
subject.
Dr. JAMESON: ilay I interrupt you for a moment? I want this
passed as it stands. I do not want His Majesty's Government at the
present moment to pledge itself to change its policy with regard to
" setting \i\> i\ tariff," which were the words you used.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is it.
Dr. JAMESON: I merely want to hiiiit this to what it contains.
There is nothing behind it except, of course, there is behind it that
wp who believe in tlie whole question cf preference believe, in the
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
367
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
fut\irc, apart from jiuvcininents or anything: else, that this policy
will prevail. In the niranwhile, all I want His Majesty's Govern-
nient to do is. as stated in this resolution, to consider the possibility
of this small preference or rebate on these duties.
Mr. LLOYD OKOR^iE: Would Dr. Jameson mind explaining to
mc — I must not pretend to know when I do not exactly know — what
happens in Basutoland and Bec-hnanaland ? What is the precedent
to which he refers f How does it actually work?
Dr. JAMESOX : The position is. that the States in South Africa
have joined in a customs union. They have passed certain tariffs
with a certain preference to the United Kingdom and to every portion
of the Empire.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: And a very substantial preference it is.
Dr. JAMESON : It is while they are given reciprocal privileges.
His Majesty's Government, then absolutely governing and directing
tariffs and everything else in the Basutoland and Bechuanaland
Protectorates, approached the Customs Union of South Africa
through the High Commissioner and asked to be included in it,
adopting everything that had been passed at the Customs Conference.
ilr. LLOYD GEORGE : Does that mean that the Bechuanaland
and Basutoland Governments make concessions on the basis of reci-
procal advantages conceded by the Customs Union?
Dr. JAMESOX: Yes.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But they had a tariff already in ex-
istence.
Dr. JAMESOX: I should think they had a tariff.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Al! they did was to make certain abate-
ments upon- already existing rates of duties.
Dr. JAMESOX : I do not know that there was a tariff really.
As a matter of fact, at the time when Basutoland and Bechuanaland
first joined in the Customs Union, they would be free while under
the British Government, and there would be what was at that time
called a transit due from whatever port it was up to their border.
When the Customs Convention of 1903, which did not include any-
thing beyond the three States, was passed, all those transit dues were
aboHshed, and then His Majesty's Government asked that these Pro-
tectorates as you may call them, should be pei-mitted to enter the
Customs Union of South Africa.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: They are inside the Customs Union
now ?
Dr. JAMESOX : Yes. at the present time.
:Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: And it is since they entered into the
Customs Union that the.v, in common with the rest of South Africa,
have made this concession to the Mother Country?
Dr. JAMESOX : As soon as they were in, they adopted the tariff
of the Customs Union, which gives them a tariff on which they can
make these reductions and preferences to the United Kingdom and
to all the other reciprocating Colonies; so that they are actually
following the conduct of Soiith Africa at present in their tariff, and
also in preference against foreign countries.
Eleventh
Day.
6th Mav,
1907. ■
Preferential
Trade.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
COLOMIL COXFERENCE. 1907
Eleventh
Day.
6th MaT.
1907.'
Preferential
Trade.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE. Of course, but there is a tarifiF. That is
the real difficulty, and it is no use ignoring it. That does involve
setting up a tariff if preference is to be given in that form. There
is no doubt at all about it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Except that this particular proposal is
not a suggestion that you should set up a tariff here; but I take it
the proposal from this Resolution is to make a reduction upon the
present articles in your own tariff which are dutiable. That is the
difference.
Dr. JAMESON: I began by saying that this is not to set up a
tariff.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That, I think, is very important.
Dr. JAMESON : It is only to give some help to our trade, to our
products coming over here as against the foreigner.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: As regards the duties already existing
in this country?
Dr. JAilESON: Yes, only on the articles where a tariff does
exist.
Mr. DE AIvIN : It is only a prospect of getting that — a possibility.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes, a prospect.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : If I may, I will proceed. I regret that
it should be necessary for me, not merely out of courtesy to Sir
William Lyne and Dr. Smartt, but also from a full appreciation of
the importance and the weight of the arguments they addressed to
the Conference on Thursday, to continue what I cannot help thinking
for the practical purposes of this Conference, is, after all, a purely
theoretical discussion as to the rival merits of Free Trade and Pro-
tection. I should have been very pleased to have left the matter as
it was dealt with in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer;
but Sir William Lyne and Dr. Smartt have since made certain state-
ments, quoted certain figures, and used certain arguments, which,
having regard to the fact that this debate is to be published, the Gov-
ernment cannot permit to go altogether unanswered. I had hoped
we might have frankly acknowledged the limitations imposed upon
us by the convictions we respectively hold, and which those who send
us here hold, on fiscal issues, and that we could have proceeded on
that understanding to take counsel with each other in order to ascer-
tain whether it is not possible to find other means of serving the
object we have a common interest in — means which would not bring
either or any of us into conflict with convictions of our constituents.
We are quite aware that the Colonies regard a tax on our goods as
well as on foreign goods to be neoessary, not merely for the purpose
ot i-aisiii?' ri/veniip, but for the protection of their own industries.
Mr. DEMvIN : A " duty."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : A " duty " on our goods— I do not mind
the word. I am prepared to substitute that word. Mr. Deakin in-
formed us in his impressive speech that the last general election in
the Australian Commonwealth was fought on the issue of preferential
tariffs within the Empire. I believe that at that election Mr. Deacon
also sought and secured a mandate for raising the protective duties
now levied by the Commonwealth against the importation of goods
in which Britain drives a very considerable trade with the Australian
consumer at the present moment.
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907 369
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILFEID LAURIER: I do not understand from Mr. Deakin Eleventh
that the last issue in the Australian elections had been directed to <;iP\^'
the question of preference or no preference. 19Q7 ^'
'Mr. DEAKIN : 'Mr. Lloyd George has inverted the order. There Preferential
are two issues; the first issue, as we put it, was Protection. Trade.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: A higher tariff. ^ GeorgO*^
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, because withoiit the tariff we do not get the
opportunity of preference. We mentioned preference second in order
of importance. In logical order we say Protection and preferential
trade. You in your argument take them in the inverse order. There
is nothing in that. Both issues were submitted. I have convincing
evidence of that in the statement made by the Leader of the Opposi-
tion when the House met two months ago, after the elections, in
which he expressly acknowledged that those two issues had been sub-
mitted to the country and decided beyond any doubt whatever,
although that decision was adverse to himself.
^yir. LLOYD GEORGE : I accept Mr. Deakin's statement. I am
building my argument on that basis. It was quite open for the repre-
sentatives of the Imperial Government at this Conference to have
ignored this mandate, and to have endeavoured to commit their col-
leagues sitting round this table to a policy to which we knew in
advance they could not possibly assent without being false to the
trust reposed in them by their own people. For instance, we might
have proposed a resolution in favour of Free Trade within the Em-
pire, that is, the admission of British goods into Colonies on the same
terms exactl.v as Colonial goods are permitted to enter our markets,
free from toll or tariff. We might have repeated, in support of our
resolution, arguments we have advanced on a thousand platforms
already. We might have quoted the German Zollverein as an illustra-
tion of a case where Imperial Federation was effected, and an Empire
consolidated, on the basis of absolute Free Trade within its own boun-
daries. Sir William L.vne. in his speech the other day, said that " all
" approve of the commercial union of England, Scotland and Ireland ;
"of the consolidation of the United States; the Federation of South
'•' Africa and of Australia." Then he went on to say: " What reason
"can be urged against the commercial union of the whole Empire?"
May I point out that in each and every one of these cases the com-
mercial union was based on the abolition of all tolls and tariffs be-
tween the States that entered into the union ? We might have pressed
similar proposals on the various States of the Empire, with an utter
and a callous indifference to Colonial mandates and to the settled
policy of the Colonial Statesmen.
Mr. DEAKIN : What would become of the revenue both of this
country and of our own?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I agree. We have taken that point into
consideration.
Mr. DEAKIN: You would have no revenue.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That is what I point out. Our Colonial
friends would have been bound to reject our resolution, — to adapt
words which have become the commonplaces of a press which is
hostile to Free Trade, they would have refused to listen to the appeal
of the Mother Country to be put on equal terms with her children.
58—24
370 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh We might then even have said that the door had beer slammed in the
6th May, ^^'^ Mother's face by her ungrateful progeny.
^^^- Mr. DEAKIN : If you are willing to give up your Customs
Preferential revenue we might have something to proiwse.
Trade. ^^ LLOYD GEOKGE : We have not taken that course. We
George^ have recognised the essential unfairness of ignoring those local con-
ditions and exigencies which must be paramount in the minds of the
statesmen who are responsible for the well-being of the popidation
in the respective States of the Empire, and we have consequently not
thought it just to put them in the predicament of appearing to deny
to the country, for which we know they have such genuine regard,
and on behalf of which experience has taught ns they are ready to
make such sacrifices — to deny to that country a boon which millions
on this side of the water might regard as a perfectly reasonable one
to ask of their kinsmen in distant lands. We are not here to en-
deavour to manceuvre each other into false positions, but to discharge
the practical business of the Empire. We are in perfect accord as to
the objects we would strive to promote. I agree, absolutely, with the
eloquent words tjsed by Mr. Deakin in stating what all our objects
ought to be. Wje are in complete agreement with the Colonial Dele-
gates in their belief that the attainment of this object would be
assisted by any scheme or system which would develop inter-Impcrial
trade, provided such a scheme did not inflict sacrifices on any indi-
dual community so great as to produce a sense of grievance with
the conditions of Emiiiro. s<i deep as to introduce elements of dis-
content and discord into the confederation, and thus imperil its
efficacy and maybe its continued existence as an organisation. We
heartily concur in the view which has been presented by the Colonitil
Ministers that the Empire would be a great gainer if much of the
products now purchased from foreign countries could be produced
and purchased within the Empire. In Britain, we have the greatest
market in the world. We are the greatest purchasers <>f produce
raised or manufactured oiitside our own boundaries. A very large
proportion of this produce could very well be raised in the Colonies,
and any reasonable and workable plan that would tend to increase
the proportion of the produce which is bought by us from the Col-
onies, and by the Colonies from us and from each other, must neces-
sarily enhance the resources of the Empire as a whole. A consider-
able part of the surplus population of the I'nited Kinplum which now
goes to foreign lands in search of a livelihood might then find it to
its profits to pitch its tents somewlierc under the Flag, and the Empire
would gain in riclies of material and of men. We agree with our
Colonial comrades, that all this is worth concerted ctTort, even if that
effort at the outset costs us something. The fe<leratiou of free Com-
monwealths is worth nniking some sacrific<> for. One never knows
when its strength may be essential tn the great ca\ise nf luiman free-
dom, and that is priceless.
I am not one of tliose who believe that the value of great ideals is
to be assessed always by Board of Trade returns. In the nniin pur-
pose, therefore, which has brought you and ourselves to this Confer-
ence, we agree. We differ only tui ways and means. But that is n
difference which in my ojiinion can be bridge<l over by men honestly
seeking the same end in the same spirit. But the first essential con-
dition of co-operation under such eirctnnstanees is to recognise
frankly and tolerantly eai-b otlier's piMiit of vii'w and above all to
rnUlMAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 371
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
slum prossiiijr niothods of solution about wliidi there is an irrecon- Eleventh
ciialilo difforcnco of i)rincii)lc. Let ns ratlior search out our devices ,»i >?'
1 • •••111111 '"" -^'"y"
wherein eoninion action is attainable, although the proposals that may 1907.
not, in the ojiinion of partisans of rival schemes, be the most effica- „ Z ,.
eious that could be devised. We have made sacrifices to found and Trade.
maintain this great commonwealth of nations known as the British (Mr. Lloyd
Empire in the past; we are still makiiipr sacrifices to the same end in George.)
the present. We are iire)iare(l to face even greater sacrifices in the
future, but we are convinced that to tax the food of the jieople is to
cast an undue share of that sacrifice on the poorest and most helpless
])art of our population, and that a tax on raw material would fetter
lis in the severe conflict we are waging with the most skilful trade
competitors with whom any nation has ever yet been confronted.
That would be a sacrifice which would diminish our power for further
sacrifice, and we doubt the wistlom of making it.
May I also point out that in the resolution subiiiitte<l by Mr.
Deakin you are asking us to do what no i)rotectionist I'ountry in the
world would think of doing; you ai'c asking us to tax iiecessarie? of
either life or livelihood, which we cannot produce ourselves and of
which you cannot for many a long year supply us with a snflScieucy?
And that is why we cannot see our way to agree to this particular
method of drawing the Empire together which is contained in the
resolution we are now discussing.
Mr. DE.VKIX: Will you be good enough to take me as registering
a formal objection whenever the word " tax " is used instead of
" duty '.'' I tried to explain that duties are not alway.s taxes.
Mr. LLOYD OEOKGE: T do not wish to use words giving
offence.
Mr. DEAKIX : The.v do not give offence, but the.v imply some-
thing which is not necessarily implied in our projwsals for duties and
certainly not implieil in all of them.
Mr. LLOYD (lEORGE: T will use the words you are most ac-
customed to here. but. as the Chancellor of the Exchequer points out,
the word I used corresponds with the facts from our point of view.
ilr. DEAKIX : It may or may not apply.
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E : However. I do not want to use the word
if I can possibly use another word to which common consent can be
given.
Mr. DEAKIX : A duty is not necessarily a tax upon the con-
sumer.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : But before I proceed to consider alter-
natives which have been suggested, I am sorry that I have to take
a little time in referring to some figures which were used by Sir
William Lyne, and some criticisms passed by, I think. Dr. Smartt,
upon our present coijimercial )iosition. I gather from these speeches,
and I think also from Mr. Deakin's speech, that there is an opinion
that our trade is on the down grade.
Mr. DEAKIN: Xo, only proportionately; the amount of British
trade must be taken in proportion to the trade of other countries.
Our idea is that if in any year or period you desire to measure the
trade of a country-, you look not only to the gross output of that
country but to the general circumstances of commerce throughout the
world and in reference to particular communities. You must measure
58— 24J
372
COLONIAL COyFERENGE, 1907
Eleventh
Day.
6th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
your own commerce against the growth of commerce elsewhere, by
the result in particular countries. It is only by those means that
you can enable the figures of one year to be compared strictly with
the figures of another year. A season of world-wide depression affects
all figures, and if you look at your figures alone you might say British
trade is falling of seriously, but when you look at the figures for the
rest of the world you may find it is not so, and vice versa.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Then on the whole I gather that Mr.
Deakin would direct his observations rather to our foreign trade.
Mr. DEAKLN: To its proportions to your own.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: And in comparison with our foreign
competitors.
Mr. ASQUITH : The comparative rate of growth.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The comparative rate of growth. Sir
William Lyne is especially distressed about our condition, and if he
had been here, I should have been very happy to try and cheer him
up with a few figures.
Mr. DEAKIN: Unfortunately he is in Sheffield this morning.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am so anxious to reassure him on the
subject, because I could see he was altogether very unhappy about it.
I would take first of all the point Mr. Deakin has made now — our
position in comparison with foreign countries.
Mr. E. R. MOOR: Are your comparisons proportionate or simply
in volumes of trade?
Mr. LLOYT) GEORGE : I am going to take both, for the simple
reason, as Mr. Deakin pointed out — I wish he had pointed it out in
advance to his colleague — that it is unfair to take either percentage
or volume; you have to take both." Sir William Lyne simply took
percentages, which may mean anything in the world. For instance,
take our export of motors. Our exports of motors have gone up. I
think, by nearly 200 per cent, in the last two years. I think the ex-
ports of France have only gone up by something like 30 or 40 per
cent. Supposing I had merely said that, it would have been grossly
misleading, because our exports have only gone up by a few hundred
thousands, I beUeve, whereas France's exports have gone up by mil-
lions, so that if I had used simple percentages, it would have been
grossly misleading and altogether unfair. It is fairer to give the
actual figures, because any man can draw inferences himself as to
percentages, whereas if you give percentages .vou do not know where
yo\i are; you have no idea what the figures are. I propose, therefore,
to give the figures, and where I do not give the percentages it will be
open to any gentleman to make out tlie percentages for himself. Let
us take our three great trade competitors, which are France, Germany
and the United States of America. France has a population which
is roughly about equal to our own, Germany has a population which
eiceeds us by 50 per cent., and the United States of America have a
population which is almost double ours. I think those figures with
regard to population are very useful. The exports from the United
Kingdom of manufactured articles per head of the pop\dation, taking
the average of the years 1901-5 were 5/. 12 s. Orf., whereas the corres-
ponding figures for France, Germany, and the United States were
211. 10s. 0(/., 21/. 16.f. Od., and 1/. 6*-. Od. respectively. I propose now to
take the figures for those three countries, and I will take the last 10
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
373
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
years. I agree it would be unfair simply to take one or two years,
and pick out the year which suits me best, and compare it with
another year which equally suits me. I think you ought to take the
trade for a whole cycle and that is what I propose doing. Take the
case of France. In 1895 the exports of manufactured articles from
France amounted to 76,000,000/. I have not yet got the figures for
1906 with regard to France, but in 1905 they amounted to 110,000,-
000?. The export trade of France in manufactured goods has gone
up by 34,000,0007.. France being a very highly protected country.
Take the United States of America another very highly tariffed coun-
try. Their exports have gone up from 38,000,000?. to 127,000,000?. in
1905, that roughly being an increase of 90,000,000?. Coming to Ger-
many, in 1905 their exports of manufactured goods amounted to
109,000,000?.
Mr. DEAKIN: Do you take 1896 to 1906, that makes 11 years
in the last two cases?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I think on the whole we had better stick
to 1905, but I will take 1906 if you like in the last cases, I cannot get
1906 figures in the case of France. Li 1905 the export of manufac-
tured goods from Germany was 191,000,000?., that is an increase of
82,000,000?. Take the United Kingdom ; in 1895 the export of manu-
factured goods, excluding ships, was 102,000,000?.; in the year 1905
it went up to 264,000.000?., that is an increase of 72,000,000?., but the
increase in the last five years is more marked than that in the first
five years. It is rather extraordinary that from about 1885 up to
1895, neither Germany, the LTnited States of America, nor France,
nor ourselves, made very much progress in the export of manufac-
tured goods. I have here the figures from 1890 to 1895. They are
not altogether stationary, but there is no very distinct advance in the
figures. Then, about 1895 — and that is why I am taking that year —
there is a sudden rise in the trade of all these countries. For the first
five years following 1895 Germany on the whole lessened the distance
between her trade and ours. She increased her exports of manufac-
tures by 40,000,000?., we only increased ours by 28,000,000?., excluding
the value of new ships, as to which we have no information prior to
1899. In the last five years Germany has increased her trade by 42,-
000,000?., and we have increased our trade by 44,000,000?., excluding
ships. Including ships, the value of our exports of manufactured
goods ill 1906 amounted to 311,000,000?., while the best estimate we
can make as to the value of the German exports of manufactured
goods in 1906 is 208.000,000?. It is only fair to state, however, that
this estimate is based upon prices ruling during 1905. and that it may
consequently be found, when official figures are available, to be some-
what below the mark.
ilr. D£AKIN : I do not wish to divert you from your argument
ir. the least, but can you put your finger on the particular causes
which seem to have operated between those two quinquennial periods
— anything in the world's harvest or other circumstances which would
account for the universal stoppage in the first, and then the general
advance in the second ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I wonder whether peace had something
to do with it.
Mr. DEAKIN: Was not 1890 to 1895 peaceful? I think so.
Eleventh
Day.
eth May.
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
374 COWMAL COXFEREXCE. Hm
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh ^y_ iLOYD GEORGE : I really have not gone into that matter.
6th May ^^^'^ should not like to express a hasty opinion about it. I understand
1907. from Mr. Llewellyn Smith, who is the Permanent Secretary of the
Preferential Department over which I preside, that there was a general depression
Trade. throughout the world at that time, the cause of which I could not
(Mr. at present explain. But undoubtedly there have been good times
Deakin.) since then. What I want to impress upon the Conference is this :
that we have profited by those good times to a larger extent than any
foreign country so far as foreign trade is concerned; and I am taking
our three greatest trade rivals. It is really a remarkable fact. The
United States has endless resources of raw material, to begin with,
which we cannot compare with for a moment. We have, for instance,
to get our iron ore from Spain, and Sweden, and the ends of the
earth; the same is the case with our copper; and wo have to get our
raw cotton from thousands of miles across the sea; whereas the
United States of America have got these things at their feet. We
have to bring them all here and then start manufacturing, after pa.v-
ing for the carriage of the raw material.
ilr. DEAKIX : Very often railwa.v carriage for a short distance
is heavier than shipping carriage for a long distance. We have found
that so.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But take the case of Pittsburg; there is
no carriage of raw materials there ; the.v have their iron ore. coal, gas,
and oil practically all in the same faetor.y. There has never been
anything like it in the whole history of the world, and yet in spite
of that we beat the Unite<l States of America by more than 2 to 1.
Jfr. DEAKIN : In iron ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will come to that. In the export of
ninniifactured goods, we beat them by more than two to one. Thau
;Mr. Deakin asks me about iron. Yes. in the finished product, ma-
' chinery and .ships, the product that employs not merely most labour,
but the best kind of labour, the most highly paid labour, we have
beaten the I'nited States out of the market, and we do that in spite
of the fact that they have all these products at their feet, and ad-
vantages that no other country in the world has got, and certainl.v
not Britain.
We have not got those great petroleum wells, we Iiave not those
great resources of natural gas whicli can be turned on t<i the works
by piiH's and enable two men to look after engines which would em-
plo.v probalily 100 men to look after here. In spite of that we iiave
beaten the United States complctel.v out of the field.
Mr. DEAKIN: Have .vou in iron?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, in all the finished products— ma-
chiner.v. There is another fact which I wish to impress upon the
Conference in that connection. The ingenuity of the United States
in the mattiT of invention is certainly greater than ours. That has
been explained to nic b.v reason of the fact that the.v are forced to
nsort to labour-saving a])|>liaiic<'s wliidi nia.v not be nece.ssar.v luTc.
I frankl.v admit tlu\t in the United States of America, as in all new
countries, labour is more exiK'Usive tlian it is in an old countr.v like
ours — and I am coming to the question of labour. Tlierefore the.v
are forced to use all their ingenuity anrl mental resource for the pur-
jM>sp of finding out some means of saving labo\ir.
COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907 375
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
^Ir. Dl'iAKlX. Their patt'iit hiw liili)s them. Eleventh
iMr. l.l.OVD (iEOKOE: Ko .loulit. the patent laws of both Am- 6tl?May,
erica and (Jerniaiiy help them immensely. But although they have 1907.
all this invenliveness we beat them in the e.xjjort of machinery; and prefeieutial
the same thing: applies to (lermany. Trade.
Dr. JAMESON: I think vour words were "beaten out of the (*j.'- ^'"f"^
field." You do not mean that, surely. They have a market, and they
are catchinf; us up. It is (piite true they are not catehinp us up so
much, but they are not going' back in their exports.
Mr. LLOYD GE0EC4E: I am very glad Dr. Jameson has called
my attention to it. That really does not accurately represent what
I wished to convey because I had already given the figures. They
cannot be beaten out of the field because they were selling 127.000,-
000?. of manufactured goods in lOO.T, and (ienuany, at the same time,
was selling litLOOO.OOO/., so I agree that the phrase is exaggerated
in its form.
Dr. JAMESOX : But my point is, we are in the position of a
man with a large capital who expects a very much larger interest than
a man with a small capital who expects a smaller interest. Surely
we are not getting such a very large interest for our capital. I do
not mean money capital, but after having the markets of the world
in our hands quel capital, these younger States are coming in and
getting a larger interest considering the capital in the form of the
markets of the world — they are getting more than we are now.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I am afraid I do not quite follow that.
If Dr. Jameson means they are catching us uji in actual fact —
Dr. JAMESON: Yes, I do.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Then I have pointed out by the figures
I have given, that during the last few years \vc have increased the
distance between ns and German.v, our most formidable competitor.
Dr. JAMESOX: Yon do not quite understand my meaning. Be-
fore these people really got on their legs, 3,000/. a .vear might be a
bigger increase for ns than even 7,000,000/. would be at present.
That is m,v point.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I agree, and that is why I object to the
doctrine of percentages ; and as for Germany and the United States
of Arnerica and France getting on their legs, they have been on their
legs pretty long. It is not because they are new countries and not
fully developed ; the.v are certainly developed up to their highest
pitch, as far as manufacture is concerned., and as far as the con-
ditions of the moment are concerned. Their mechanical appliances,
and everything of that kind, are simply perfect, and I am not sure
they are not better than ours from all I hear.
Dr. JAMESON : Yes, I believe they are,
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Therefore, it is not the case of infant
<-ountries just struggling to find means of establishing a business.
The United States and Germany have established an enormous busi-
ness, and, as far as the home market is concerned, it is a much bigger
one than ours, because^ their population is more than three times as
large as ours. Here yon have these two great countries with an ag-
gregate poi)ulation of 140,000,000, ours being only a population of
about 4n,O0((,(K)0, and we export very nearly as much of manufac-
376 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh tured products to the world as both of those great rivals put to-
6th Mar, gether. Really, I do not think it can be said that we are altogether
1907. " in this very distressful, wretched condition which so stirred Sir Wil-
„ Z .. , liam Lvne's commiseration. We are doing rather weU as far as
Preierential - ■, ■, , r ■, r i ■ ■
Trade. our products are concerned, and before we proceed further at is mucli
(Mr. Lloyd better that we should really get the facts and that we should be
George.) under no delusion upon this point.
Mr. DEAKIN: Will it fall into your argument presently to ex-
amine your British trade with your two great rivals, Germany and
the United States?
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : I have done so.
ilr. DEAKDn: Your trade with Germany, France, and the
United States as compared with their trade to Great Britain — is that
part of your argument yet to come?
ilr. LLOYD GEOKGE : Xo, but I am willing to go into it.
Mr. DEAIvIN: You have taken the collective trade with the
world of each of those countries, measuring it with yours, perfectly
fairly ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN : Is it part of your argument to examine their
trade with yourselves in the last few years, showing how far your
trade has gone or gained in the German, French, and American mar-
kets?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I can easily do so, and I am not afraid
of the comparison.
Mr. DEAIQN : We are afraid of no comparison, I hope.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Especially during the last few years our
trade with Germany has grown considerably. Not merely our im-
ports from, but our exports to Germany have grown.
Mr. DEAEJN: In manufactured goods?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. Not only that, but I may point
out as regards manufactured goods, where our men are engaged in
these industries they are paid liigher wages than the Germans who
produce the goods which they send us in return.
Mr. DEAKIN : I am very glad to hear that.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will take the case Dr. Smartt referred
to, of cotton. We sell cotton yarn to Germany a good deal ; they sell
cheap goods to us — goods which it does not, on the whole, pay us to
turn over; that is, it does not pay us on the whole to put our brains
into them. I do not mean to say we have not mills and factories
in this country that do produce goods of that sort, but we do not
give our best thought to turning out this sort of stuff. In cotton we
turn out the best stuff that the world produces, and that is how we
maintain our superiority. Pardon this little bit of bragging.
Mr. DEAKIN : I can assure you it is very welcome. You are
nut bragging for yourselves only but for us.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I thought you would naturally take a
pride in that. I was sure you would. The Germans still sell us
these cheap goods. You must not take these figures as Hnnl, but
they sell us three or four millions of this cheap stuff which we find
it better, on the whole, to buy from them t}ian produce ourselves.
COLOXJAL COyPEREXCE, 1907 377
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
We think it a much more profitable transaction. They buy from Eleventh
us cotton yarn. On the face of it it will bo said : " You are selling fifi^^v
them cotton yarn to enable them to compete with you in manufae- 1907.
tures." What is the real state of things? The man in Lancashire ,, ";; ^. ,
who is engaged in producing the cotton yarn is paid more by at least Trade.
60 per cent, for his labour than the man who is engaged in Germany (Hr. Lloyd
in producing the cotton goods which come here in return. We are George.)
paying more for our labour than they pay for theirs.
Mr. DEAKIN: Cheap labour for the cheaper product, dear labour
for the dearer product.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: And that is the argument that has im-
pressed the public in the interests of Free Trade. Our labour has
given us the highest product, and, as Mr. Deakin points out, that
means the market in the highest paid product. Dr. Smartt is quite
right when he says Germany is pushing its trade in reference to
cheaper goods, and I should not be surprised if they beat us in things
of that sort, because we cannot find the labour that would enable us
to turn them out. I should like to see the man in Lancashire who
tried to turn out these cheap goods on the terms on which the Ger-
man maker can tui-n his out, in, I think, Wurtemburg. He could
not do it ; there would be a general strike there.
Mr. DEAKIN : You do not think you can compete with them
because of the cheapness of their labour cost in that particular line?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I would not like to say we could not
compete, because I have not gone into it. But I am not prepared
to challenge Dr. Smartt on that point. I accept his statement with
regard to it, and I think it is very likely. I remember when I was
in the Argentine they were rather getting ahead of us in the cheaper
and shoddier kind of stuff, but could not come near us in the better
class of article; and in the long run I find that tells. I was in the
Argentine it is true at a time of depression of trade between this
country and the Republic ; but I find in the long run that quality has
told, and as the Argentine Republic has become richer and richer it
has got the money to buy the better article, and our trade with the
Argentine Republic is going up by percentages that would delight
the heart of Sir William Lyne, if I could give them.
Mr. DEAKIN : Why should you not make both ? You make
the best article, and have the market for it. Very good. That is
the best thing, if you have to choose. But why cannot you keep
that and beat them in the cheaper kind also?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am coming to cotton by and by; but
it is very difficult to retain both, because the moment wages go up,
of course, you are driven into the better class of trade by the price.
Mr. DEAKIN : I wanted to find out whether labour cost was the
sole factor in making the distinction between your success in one
and their capture of the other, or is it due to anything else?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, there are the profits. We can make
a better profit out of the better article.
Mr. DEAKIN: Why not make both? Good profits on the dear
and smaller profits on the cheap goods.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: As I point out, we have no reason to
complain of our cotton market. I have been rather led away by
378 COLOMIL CoyFEIlEXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
^'ojf"*^ the eross-examinatiou of llr. Deakin — not that I object to it for a
6th May, moment ; on the contrai-j-, I am very g\ad he has put those questions,
1^"- if I have been able to answer them satisfactorily, but I have been
Preferential '■'itlier led into a subject that I did not mean to go into, that is.
Trade. into our present position in reference to our great trade rivals.
(Mr. Lloyd Xow, let me put another figure which will illustrate the position
George.,! ^,^- things, I think, even better than the actual figures which I have
given. I have given the amounts of our exports of manufactured
goods : I should like now to give the exjxirts of our manufactures
per head of the population, because after all that is what counts.
Eighty millions of people working 10 or 11 hours a day could turn
out naturally more than -10 millions of people working eight, nine,
or ten hours a day. You must take population into account as a
factor. We are a smaller country than any of those countries. I
am not sure how we compare in mileage with France, but we are
certainly smaller than Germany.
Mr. DEAKIX: You are much smaller than France.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I accept that statement from Mr. Dea-
kin. For the moment I forgot. We are much smaller than Ger-
many, and of course, only one-thirtieth of the United States of Am-
erica, and cannot therefore extend and increase our population as
they can. Per head of the iiopiilation, as I have alread.v said, France
exports about 2/. 10s. Od. of manufactured goods. The position of
Germany is only slightl.v better although she makes considerably more
fuss about her manufactures than France does. She sells 2/. 16s. Od.
per head, although she resorts to all kinds of devices and schemes in
the way of using her State railwa.vs to the very fullest, a matter
which T am looking into at the present moment, and upon which I
received a very valuable report only two days ago, which I shall be
very glad to show the members of the Conference. T have to thank
Mr. Law of the Foreign Office for having provided me with these
materials. He wired for the report on Tuesday or Wednesday, and
I had the whoe of the information on Saturday from one of the
ablest Consuls we have in the Empire, and very valuable information
it is. It was after the statement made b.v ilr. Moor. We had
heard something about the matter, and in fact I had sent two or
three investigators over to Germany to look into it. and we are now
getting the facts. There is no doubt tliat the (Jermans are using
their State railways for subsidising their trade to the Levant by
means of through rates, and probabl.v they may capture the trade
of the Levant ; at least they will develop a great trade there. I am
sure they will. They have very largely secured the trade of East
Africa, and T think that is attributable to a very large extent to' our
own fault. We sjient millions of money in con.structing a railway
in I'ganda to o]>eu uji the resources of a jiart of our Empire. Whether
tliat was good fwlic.v or bad T think we ought to have finished it. It
is no good ojiening up a country of that sort unless you bring it
somewhere near a market. What we do is we just open uji the comi-
try and we allow the (iermans to capture the market. 1 think that
is the most stupid and shortsighted policy that could possibl.v be en-
tered iijion. Luckily tlic procut (ioveriuuout have not got that on
their conscience.
Mr. DK.\KIX: But th(> I'^ganda Kailway is i)aying now.
Mr. Id.OVI) CKOUGK: T shoidd not think so.
COLOMAL CO\FEIlEXCE. 1901 379
SFSSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHAIRMAX: It is inereasing very iiuicli. Eleveuth
Day.
Mr. ])EAKIN : I thought it wa.s pa.ving its working expenses. gth May,
Dr. JA.MESOX: It is not paying. "*"'"
Mr. J.LOYD (JEORGE: I do not think v..u have many first class Preferential
, ,. Trade,
passengers on the line. .jj^. li^^.j
y\v. WIXSTOX CIlt'RCHILL: 00,000/. profit on its working ex- George.)
pinsc->.
("11 .M It-\1 .V\ : li lines not pay interest on the capital.
Mr. LLOYD (iEORCE: No, nor its sinking fund. The..Ger-
?nans are extending their operations to South Africa.
Dr. JAMESON : And AnsfraHa. I understand, is now in eontem-
puitioi'.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, I think not. There is the line to
the Levant, to German East Africa, and there is a third to some-
where, but ro' Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN : South America and the Argentine markets, per-
haps.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No. they have not done that.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: India and the Cape?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No; I can let the Conference know later
on. There is a third line, and I shall be able to supjily the informa-
tion.
I come to another point put by Mr. Deakiu, who asked me about
the trade with ijroteeted countries. When Mr. Chamberlain first
raised the point, in the year 1903, the trade to protected countries
had gone down very seriousl.v. It is no use shutting our e.ves to
the fact that it was due, of course, to the imposition of tariffs against
our goods. Tariffs had had their effect, and, as the Chancellor of
the Exchequer said, we are the most formidable trade competitor,
and the tariffs were \ery largely directed against us, Germany,
France, anil other countries wanted to build their industries within
this wall of tariffs, and they undoubtedly managed to exclude our
goods to a very large extent. I think Mr. Chamberlain was quite
right in saying that our trade with protected countries had gone
down. But there, again, there has been a turn since 1902, and our
exports of manufactures, excluding ships, to the principal protected
countries have gone up from 71,o(X>,000/. in 1902 to about 90,000,000?.
in 1900. May I point o\it that during the same .years the trade
with the Colonies has gone up from 94,OO0,(X>0/. to 107,000,000/?
Mr. DEAKIN : That is all the Colonies I
Mr. LLOY'D GEORGE: That is all the Colonies. That is an
increase of about 19,000.000/. in our trade with the principal pro-
tected countries, and an increase of 1:5,0(X>,000/. in our exports to
the Colonies. Adopting again the method of percentages, it is an
increase of 20 per cent, in our trade with the principal protected
countries and an increase of 14 jier cent, in our trade with the Colo-
nies.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Y'ou do not compare populations there. What
is the population of your Colonies against these protected countries?
Mr. DEAKIN: You are not comparing one with another.
Mr. LLOYT) GEORGE: Not at all. I am not in the slightest
380 COLONIAL COyPERENGE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh degree trying to disparage the trade with the Colonies. I was ans-
6th May, Bering the point put by Mr. Deakin, specifically how our trade with
1907. Germany, the United States of America, and France, and these pro-
Preferential *®*'**^ countries was faring, and in answer I pointed out that there
Trade. liad been an increase of 26 per cent, in the last five years, and I
(Mr. Lloyd also admitted that before that our trade with the principal pro-
Geoige.) tected countries had rather suffered from the high tariffs put up
against it. This does not apply to our total exports, but to manu-
factured goods. No doubt if I had included coal the trade would
have gone up considerably higher than even 26 per cent., because
there has been a great increase in our export of coal.
Dr. JAMESON: The reason of that, you may take it, is the
general increase in the wealth of the world.
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE : Yes, there is no delusion about it at all.
The only point I make is this; that in this general increase in the
wealth of the world, which has increased the volume of trade of the
world, we have had a larger share than any other country as far as
foreign trade is concerned. There is no doubt at all about that.
Dr. JAMESON: Because we began with a much larger amount
to get a share on, I repeat again.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Pardon me, I cannot accept that. We
have had no advantages except the advantage which in my judgment
a free fiscal sj'stem gives tis — absolutely no more advantage. Ger-
many has advantages over us which in many respects we do not
possess. There she is in the centre of the most opulent consumers
in the world, with the accumulated wealth of centuries; she is right
in the centre and can run her trucks to any country in Europe; she
needs no transhipment. What an element transhipment is, after
all, when you come to trade ! As Sir Wilfrid Laurier knows per-
fectly well, that is one of the difficulties of the transcontinental route
to New Zealand. Germany is right in the centre of Europe, and
can run truck loads to every country. We cannot do that. But in
spite of that we have had a bigger share of the good things going,
owing to the excellent trade of the world, than any country, and
almost than any two of those countries put together.
Dr. JAMESON: And if you had not you would be in a hopeless
condition at this stage, because you formerly had the whole of it
practically speaking. In general terms we all know how difficult
it is to get it back. The process of diverting is only going on natu-
rally, slowly, because we had it all at the beginning. These people
are in the process of diverting it, which is a slow uphill game.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: All that is very good in the abstract, but
unfortunately facts are against it. Take any of those great coun-
tries— take any country you may name. Australia I shall have to
come to by and by, because, I agree, something seems to be wrong
in the trade between our country and Australia, and I should like to
know Bomething more about it. It is no use concealing that fact.
I do not quite like the figures to which my attention has been drawn
since I have been in this Conference. I thinly it is a matter which
requires looking into. I think it is a great misfortune that there
should be any drop in our trade with so important a market from
our point of view, and I think there must bo something wrong
there. But take any other market in the trade.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
381
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. F. R. MOOR : It is the only Colony which is not yet giving
reciprocity.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am obliged to Mr. Moor for pointing
that out to "Mr. Deakin.
Mr. DEAIvIN : He uses the wrong word. Ko Colony is getting
reciprocity.
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E: Yes, they are getting reciprocity. You
are giving u3 reciprocity. It was something which we started by
giving. I am trying to answer now the point raised by Dr. Jameson.
There is not a great market in the world in which we have not more
than held our own in the last few years. I pointed out that there
were markets where it looked at one time as if Germany and the
United States of America, our most formidable competitors, were
rather gaining upon us — South America is a ease in point.
Mr. DEAKLJf : These totals you have given us show the pub-
lished totals of exports of the United Kingdom over those of Ger-
many in 1891 to 1898 were 868,000,000/.; while in 1899 to 1906 they
were down to 847.000,000?. In the same way as regards the United
States our excess of exports over theirs in 1891 to 1898 was 697,000,-
OOOZ., but
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Which year do you take?
Mr. DEAKUST: Seven years as printed in this paper "Colonial
"Conference. Miscellaneous statements as to British and foreign
"trade in continuation of those laid before the Conference of 1902
"by the Prime Minister of New Zealand; revised and brought up to
"date at the request of the Prime Minister of the Australian Com-
"monwealth." You will find on page 2 a Table headed Germany and
the United States, and for the period 1891 to 1898 the excess of ex-
ports of the United Kingdom over those of Germany was 868,000,-
000?., and in the second period 847,000,000?. In the same period
the excess of exports of the United Kingdom over those of the United
States was 697,000,000?., but it dropped to 493,000,000?. in the later
period. Comparing the growth of the export trade it shows that the
United Kingdom increased its trade in the second period over the
first by 658.000,000?; Germany hers by 679,000,000?., and the United
States"^by 863,000,000?.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will take if you like the very first
figure you gave me, or any year you like. I do not care which, be-
cause I do not wish to take the responsibility of choosing the year.
Mr. DEAKIN : Take the period 1891 to 1898.
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E: In 1801 the exports of manufactured
goods from Germany amounted to 102,000,000?.
Mr. DEAKIN: You give here seven years.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes. In 1905. the exports came to 191,-
000,000?.— that is an increase of 89,000,000?.
Mr. DEAKIN : You gave that for these years.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, not 1891.
Mr. DEAKIN: I take the table circulated to us.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: In the year 1891 we sold 210,000,000?.
of manufactured goods, excluding ships, and we have increased to
Eleventh
Dav.
Gth Mar,
1907. "
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
382 COLOM.iL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh 264,000,000/. in 1905, and to 311.000.000/. in 190(! including ships and
^^^- Mr. DEAKIX: You are taking some othei- period then.
Preferential Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E: Xo. the period you gave me— 1891.
Trade. _ _ "
(Mr. Lloyd ^^^- DEAKIN : This is not given in single years at all.
Georfcc.) ^j^ LLOYD GE0R3E: Your figures are the total German ex-
ports, including raw materiaL
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, everything.
irr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am taking manufactured goods. I
shoidd not be a bit surprised if Germany beats us in raw materials;
she is a bigger country. She produces sugar; we caimot produce
sugar here.
ilr. DEAKLN : You do not. Do not say you cannot.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : We do not think it worth our while be-
cause it employs such low priced labour. Sir William Lyne referred
to a reduction in the number of agricultural laboui*ers employed.
That is very largely due to the fact that agricultural labour is the
lowest priced in this country. You cannot get it. The agricultural
labourer prefers to go into the town, where he gets niiuli better pay
and a better time altogether. It is most difficult to find agricultural
labourers at any time. So diflicult is it that we have had to import
agricultural labourers from Ireland for harvest operations in this
coiuitry, though, owing to the iise of macliinery. that has not been
thought necessary in the last few years.
With regard to raw materials I do not know how wo stand in com-
parison with Germany. I shoidd not be a bit surprised if she beats
Tis there. I am taking numufactured goods because they afford far
and away the best test in my judginent of the present position of
Great Britain and other comitries. I have been drawn into a gen-
eral argument upon questions I never thought of discussing.
Mr. DEAKIN : Then you were not making a statement from this
table?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not know anything about that table.
I believe that is a Colonial Office table. 1 understaml it is one of
Sir Joseph Ward's i-eturus.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: You may deiHMid it is abscdutely correct.
:Mr. LLOYD GEOR;:iE: I am sure it is.
!Mr. DEAKIN: They are not Sir Joseph Ward's figures, but they
are in tlie form of statistics which were laid before the Conference of
1902, but revised and brought up to date.
Mr. LLOYD (iKOR(;E: 1 do not clialleugc them at all. No
doubt the figures are absolutely correct. I am not impugning them
at all; but I have not iiad time to examine them, so 1 do not know
at all what their comparative effect is.
1 shouhl like to pi)iut out anotiier tiling, and it is this: When
you come to the wages and hours of labour, and compare our wages
an<l hours of labour with tliose obtaining in any protectionist country
on tile continent of EurolK". this is tlie general effect. This is a
comparison whicli has been made under tlie auspices of the late Gov-
erniiieiit. and I am i|iiotiiig from a docuinent for which they are re-
sponsililc. Mr, ( 'haMibcrlaiii, I liclieve. was a ineiiilicr <.>f the (iov-
COI.OMM. lOMICUEXCE. 1007
383
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ornmcnt at the time this very (loeviincnt was issued; ;it any rate, Mr.
Balfour was. This is the conchisioii they have come to after exam-
ining the wages sheets of the Continent and comparing them with
ours. ''We might, without great error, take the average for Ger-
many as two-thirds, and for France three-fourths, of tliat which pre-
vails in the Ignited Kingdom." Tliat is the result. That was in
I'.lO-I. I have much later figures than that, and I liavo here a table
of the current rates for certain sltilled occupations in the United
Kingdom, (iermany, and France. In the TTnitwl States of America
the rate of wages is higher than on the continent of Europe, but
that is for reasons which, in my judgment, have nothing to do with
the fiscal question.
Dr. .TAJIESOX: Is tlic aigunient that the rate of wages is lower
in a tariff country because of the tariff. Ix'fause that is contradicted
by th(^ Tuited States?
.Mr. J.LOYD GEORGE: I am not putting that argument at all,
but that we are not suffering by our Free Trade system, and on the
contrary liave more than held our own in all essentials of trade —
in volume, in profit, in the pickings which not merely the producer
and the manufacturer, but the merchant and the workman, derive
out of the system. We compare favourably with ever>' other coun-
try on the continent of Europe.
Sir JAilES MACK AY: And there is the shipowner's profit.
ifr. LLOYT) GEORGE: I have not forgotten him. I am coming
to that, which is our greatest pride. I have these later returns.
You must have some sort of standard figure, and I vised the United
Kingdom as 100. Take compositors to begin with: for every 100s.
paid here in London you get in Berlin 72.9. paid for the same work.
Lithographic printers, for every 100s. paid here you get <)7s. in Berlin.
Cabinet makers, for every 100s. paid here you get "STs. in Berlin, and
in all other towns in Germany 74s. I have got 1.5 trades here, and if
you take all those trades put together you will find that for every
100s. paid here you will get ><3s. paid in Berlin for the same job.
ifr. F. R. MOOR: Why are you (pioting those figures? Wlial
is the relativ(> purchasing power of the shilling in Germany and over
here? Probably it is better living in (Tcruiany than in this coun-
try.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am obliged to Mr. Moor for reminding
me of that, because that is one of our strongest arguments. It is
not merely that our workmen are paid higher wages, but their sov-
ereign goes much further than the corresponding coin in Germany —
mu<'h further. I sliall be able to quote figtires to show the reason
why. Those figures are very relevant to the proposition which is
now before the Conference. Our wages are higher; our hours of
labour are shorter even than in the United States of America. In
a comparison between the United Kingdom, the United States of Am-
erica, France, and Germany; Germany. I think, comes out worst;
France comes out ne.xt, the United States of America ne.xt, and the
United Kingdom is best.
Mr. DEAKIX: Are you still including only manufactured goods?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. I am not referring now to the
agricultural labourer working on the land.
i;ieveuth
Day.
6th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
384
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Eleventh
Day.
6th Mav,
1907.
Mr. DEAIvIN : iSTor to the miner.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE: Yes; I certainly take the miner. The
miner is better paid and his hours of labour are better.
Mr. DEAKm : Better than in America ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Not better than in the United States of
America. I freely admit that wages in the United States of America
are considerably higher than here.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIER: In everything.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes, substantially. I am perfectly cer-
tain they msut be.
Mr. DEAKEST : That is why I asked. You mentioned the United
States at the time.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I mentioned the United States of Am-
erica merely as to hours of labour. I freely admit that wages in
Ihe United States of America are much higher than here, and infi-
nitely higher than in Germany, France, or any other country, but I
am comparing our old country with another old country simply be-
cause the conditions are so different in a country like the United
States. If the United States became a Free Trade country to-mor-
row, she might pay higher wages — I even think she would — but at
any rate the money would go further.
Mr. Moor said : ''What about your purchasing power ?" and I
agree that is the real test. Food is cheaper here than in any country
in the world.
Mr. DEAKIX : The Old World.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. I ought to limit it to that perhaps.
I can give the figures with regard to the price of wheat. I forget
whether it was Dr. Smartt or Sir William Lyne who said that if you
put your duty on corn, it will make no difference at all to the price.
Mr. F. E. MOOR : I think he quoted the Is. you had here tluring
the war, and argued that it made no difference. Whether tliat is a
J net or not, I do not know.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I should not be a bit surprised if it
were the fact. At any rate, I have not gone into the matter. I
will accept this from Sir William Lyne.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: That the Is. duty made no dif-
ference ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, he said when the Is. duty was put
on, the price of wheat fell, and when it was taken off, the price of
wheat went up. That is very likely, but that is due to the fluctua-
tions of the market. What I wish to point out is the difference it
makes as regards comparison with the markets of other countries.
That is the real difference. There is a difference between 1901 and
lii02 of Is. 4d. in the price of wheat. There is a difference between
1S9S and 1902 of (is. in the price of wheat. Of course, that Is. or 2s.
will not bridge the difference between those two figures, but the dif-
ference it would make will be soon for each particular year by com-
paring the market in our country with the market in any other coun-
try. Now, let us take Germany. I forget who said that the price
of wheat in Germany had not been affected at all by the duty which
had been imposed by the German Government on imported wheat.
'J'he gazette price of British wheat in the year 1902 was 28s. \d.
COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907 385
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. F. E. MOOR : Is that per quarter ? Eleventh
Day.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. The gazetted price, the official 6th M-'.v,
average price of wheat in Prussia for the same year was 35s. 9d. ^
That is, the price was higher in Germany by 7s. 8d. per quarter than Preferential
it was here for that year, the amount of import duty in Germany Trade,
being 7s. 7id. Take France for the same year, the official average ^ Georgo''
price in France for that year is 38s. 6d. per quarter. That is higher
than tlie price in the United Kingdom by 10s. 5d., the amount of im-
port duty being 12s. 2d. We have been told repeatedly that 2s. on
corn would make no difference at all. I take a year in Germany
when the duty was only 2s., and that really ought to operate as a
warning to us. What we are more afraid of than merely a Is. or 2s.
duty on corn is that it will not stop there. A 2s. duty on corn
would not help our agriculturists very much. They would soon
realise that, and pressure would be brought to bear on the Govern-
ment. I am certain no Liberal or Conservative standing for an
agricultural constituency could face his constituents if once you
started that system of putting up a tariff against all commodities
that come into this country, unless he could pledge himself to raise
that 2s. to 3s., and 3s. to 4s., and so on, until you would end at a
figure which would enable them to grow wheat at a profit — which
they cannot do now. The example of Germany is a case in point.
Germany started in 1879 with the small import duty of 2s. id., which
is practically the proposal which is now made for the United King-
dom. She went on to 6s., she went up to 10s., then there was a drop
to 7s., and now they have gone back to a still higher figure. That
is really what we are afraid of here. But take the last year when
the duty was only about 2s., and in that year I find the price of wheat
in Germany was in excess of that in the United Kingdom by 2s., the
duty being 2s. 2d. So really, I do not think, having the experience
of Germany and France in our minds, we can possibly say that the
duty will not, somehow or other, be an element in the consideration
of the price. Probably not to the same extent, because the fact that
you would give a preference to the Colonies would in my judgment,
I agree, affect the price, and would to a certain extent break down
the price quoted for the wheat in the market, but after all you are
not supplying enough for us by millions of bushels. I am not sure
that I cannot say tens of millions of bushels — and you could not do
it for years to come. After all you are dependent upon climatic
conditions. In Canada, for instance, we had a great failure a short
time ago, and we had to fall back on the Argentine, on India, on
Egypt, and on Russia. Australia has, owing to drought failed to
supply us with wheat. That is a very serious thing for our poor
people and that is what I want to press more than anything upon
our Colonial friends. We are not refusing to meet you I can assure
you. We are anxious in our hearts to do it, but we have here a
poor population that you know nothing of. Here numbers of our
poor people are steeped in poverty and we have to think of them. . It
would be wrong of us, it would be cruel of us, it would be wicked
of us, if we did not do it. I am sure if. you realise that it would
mean 2s. more for people who are already short of shillings to buy
the very necessaries of life, you would be the last people in the world
to come and beg us to add to the troubles of this poor population of
ours. That is really why we are hesitating.
58—25
386 COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Elerenth Mr. DEAKIN : No one has begged you to do so yet. I have not
Gthl^ay. Jieardit.
^^P"- Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes, that is the proposal as it has been
Preferential presented to us — the proposal as presented to us by Mr. Chamberlain
Trade. — and we are bound to take the Preferential suggestion in the form
(Mr. Lloyd in which its great champion has presented it to us.
George.)
Mr. DEAKIN: Did he put it as a proposal?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I say this, if it had not been for the
great and distinguished position of Mr. Chamberlain, nobody would
have dreamt of giving it serious consideration here for that reason.
It is not because we would not consider anything that would bring
our Colonies nearer to us or would help the Colonies, but because we
refuse to contemplate the idea of making the food of these poor
people more difficult to get.
Mr. DEAKLN: Did Mr. Chamberlain ever admit that any pro-
posal he fathered was to raise the price of food ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No.
Mr. DEAiaiSr : That is the point.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, but Mr. Chamberlain is much too
astute an advocate ever to admit that.
Mr. DEAKIN: I understand you were referring to somebody who
was begging you to increase the price of the food of these poor peo-
ple, and as far as the outer dominions are concerned, am not aware
that any such request has been made.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I simply quoted figures to show that the
effect of a 2s. duty on corn, was to add 2s. to the price of that com-
modity to the people who purchased it. This is not 2s. added to the
price for the poor man who buys it almost in slices; it is 2s. added
to the price of the merchants, who has got to get his profit upon that
2s. The inference I drew was that if it mean Is. more in Germany,
and 2s. more in France, the same case would produce the same effect
here, and it would mean 2s. more here as well.
Mr. DEAKIN : Subject to the free colonial competition for which
you allow.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I said that too. I have been absolutely
fair. I did allow for it before I drew my inference, because I want
to be absolutely fair. I do not want to exaggerate the case against
the Colonies by one iota ; on the contrary, I wish it were possible
for us to do something to meet you on any lines which would lead
to increased trade. I am only presenting to you really the difficulties
which present themselves to our minds, and that is what .vou want
to know when you come to consider a problem of this kind.
Dr. JAMESON : It is really again in two words, the difference
between Preference and Protection. You have been arguing against
Protection, and we quite agree it would affect the poor man. Sir
Joseph Ward, at the very beginning of his argument upon this ques-
tion, made the statcnifut which we all endorse: "If this is going to
iiicrca.se the cost of living to the poor people in this country, we do
not a-sk it." Our opinion is, it will not increase the cost. We know
we differ from you on that subject. Our proposal is "preference,"
which we say will be better for the poor men of this country. We
have no business to urge an opinion against the poor men of this
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
387
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
country. We have no idea of imposing any bunlen upon the poor
men of this country.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Of course, you have every right to pre-
sent it to us, and we are doing our best to give it the most careful p
and the fairest consideration we can. I point out why we are alarm-
ed, and genuinely alarmed at this proposal, from the point of view
of our poor people.
Dr. JAMESON: But it seems to me your argument was not the
2s., but the risk you might take here, by following the example of
Germany and raising it up to .')/., but surely nations must take risks
occasionally.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I put both points. First of all, I put
the danger which undoubtedly we would incur from the temptation
which has been found irresistible in France and Germany, the tempta-
tion to increase the duty. In France the duty started at Is. ; it is
now 12s. In Germany it started at 2s. and it stood at 7s. 7d. in
1902, and has gone up, and I think it is now somewhere in the neigh-
bourhood of 12s. If these powerful governments have been unable
to resist the clamour for increased duties for the protection of agri-
culture, why should we be able to resist it?
Mr. DEAKIN : Because your manufacturing constituencies send
in such an immense majority over your agricultural districts and have
such an immense majority of representatives to safeguard their in-
terests.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : But take the case of Germany. I have
not the figures and would not like to express an opinion at once, but
I think you will find, that in Germany there is a similar state of
things.
Dr. JAMESON : I think the answer is, you have enormous Colo-
nial possessions which will keep down this price. You have put the
time forward by years and years, but I am told b,y Canadian and
Australian authorities, it is not a very long time before they will be
able to supply the needs of the Empire.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Asking you on your responsibility, how
many years do you think it would take before the Colonies could
supply us with the deficit of about 150,000,000 bushels of wheat which
is now made up by foreign supplies?
Dr. JAMESON : I think I can leave that to the representatives
concerned. It would best come from Mr. Deakin and Sir Wilfrid
Laurier, and they have told me it would be very rapid. I think two
years was mentioned.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Canada produces now 100,000,000,
and we expect to reach a figure of 600,000,000. But I would not
venture any prediction as to the time. That is very contingent.
Mr. DEAKIN : Then there are Australia and New Zealand.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But we cannot make the poor men's
bread contingent. A poor man cannot wait thr(>e years for his bread.
Mr. DEAKIN : Are you going to confine yourself to wheat ? You
take wheat as the typical food. You are not going to deal any fur
ther with food?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am not going to touch food again.
58— 25 .J
Eleventh
Day.
6th May,
1907.
referential
Trade.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
388
COLOMAL COXFKREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh
Day.
6th Mav,
1907.
Mr. DEAKIN: Are you going to touch rent?
ilr. LLOYD GEORGE: In what way?
Mr. DEAKIN: You compare the cost of food in Germany. Is
Preferential there a comparison of the cost of rent in Germany?
Trade.
<Mr. Lloyd ^^^r- LLOYD GEORGE: That is exactly what I am making a
George.) study of at the present moment. I have three investigators in Ger-
many who are looking into this question of rent, wages, and employ-
ment.
Mr. DEAKIN : Steadiness of employment is a very important
factor.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I am looking into this. I have no right
to say what the opinions of my investigators are, but there are three
absolutely impartial investigators, chosen for the express purpose of
getting these facts; and some of these facts, I do not mind saying
now, as to the growth of German prosperity, are very startling, and
they will all be published without the slightest consideration as to
whether they will aSect the fiscal argument one way or the other.
Mr. DEAKLN : What you have said we understand so far as it
asserts a high price of labour in Great Britain when compared with
the Continent. Then while alluding to your food, you draw atten-
tion to the fact that a large proportion of the population are steeped
in povert.v. They can not be engaged in the well-paid trades, but in
some other business or want of business?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is a vei-j- important problem, and
I am sorry to say that this is not the only country where you get a
population of that kind. As you know perfectly well, in every old
country you get these men who are hanging on the outskirts of so-
ciety, as it were, and very often they have no regular work to do.
It is often due to the fact that they have no physical stamina that
enables them to enter into the conflict. In new countries like yours,
first of all the men who emigrate there are men of some stamina
before they cross the ocean; and stock counts in these matters.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is why we want a British stock all the time.
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E: I agree, and I should be very glad if
emigration could be encouraged to these new countries, but here in
the old countries you have these people who form almost a separate
race, and they go on from generation to generation until they die
out.
Mr. DEAION : Do they die out ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: They do in about the third or fourth
generation in a city like this, but I am sorry to say that through
economic conditions and the keenness of the conflict this great army
of people is constantly being recruited.
Mr. DEAiaN : The " submerged tenth."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The submerged tenth; but that is a
question which has nothing to do either with Free Trade or Protec-
tion, because if you go to the highly protected countries in Europe
you will find the churches swarming with men and women of this
class, who go begging for alms. Tlierofore, it has nothing to do with
fiscal considerations. I am sorry to take up so much of the time of
the Conference.
COLOM.IL COSFEREXCE. 1007 389
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: It is very interesting to all of us. Eleventh
Day.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I meant to have called attention to 6th May,
one or two other facts rather in reply to Sir William Lyne. He re- ^^^-
ferred to the great question of unemployment in this country. At Preferential
the present moment our unemployment has been reduced gradually Trade,
to a minimum, because trade is good. Still, we have a i)ereentage of ^^^- Lloyd
unemployment which is rather unpleasant to contemplate. The only
thing I can say is this, that after comparing the figures of unemploy-
ment for 20 or 30 years, it is not on the increase. Unemployment on
the whole is very steady and the fluctuations are considerably less.
It is very difficult to compare with Germany, until we have fuller
facts, and that I hope to be able to get in the course of a year or two.
Employment in Germany now is undoubtedly very good. There is as
much work to do as they can find people to do it.
Mr. DEAIdN" : They are importing labour.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That is purely in the case of a strike.
They have done that in this country.
Mr. DEAKIX : And for agricultural purposes.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: From where?
Mr. DEAKIN : They are drawing from the partially German
countries to the south. I have seen it state<l that they are coming
in by thousands for harvesting work.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That I have not heard of yet, but I
accept the statement from you. There are two or three figures about
employment which I think are rather important. There are certain
classes of occupations which are a very good test as to the prosperity
of a country — building, for instance. If you find a country which is
not prospering, its buildings are tumbling down ; there is not much
new building going on. When a inan does well, the first thing he does
is to go into a better house. If he builds, he does it because he has
money to spare. On the whole, building is about the best test of the
prosperity of the country. It means that you are putting up new
factories, new workshops, new quays, and new railways. If you will
compare the number of people employed in building, for instance,
according to the census of 1901, with the number of people employed
in building in 1881, you will find that in 1881 there were 926,000
in this country engaged in building, and in 1901 there were 1,336,000.
That is an increase of 410,000 or 44 per cent., our population having
increased 19 per cent. The same thing applies to trades like furni-
ture.
Mr. DEAIvIN : You stop at 1901.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, that is our last census, I cannot
give later figures. Our next census will be in 1911.
Mr. DEAKIN: The President of your local Government Board,
Mr. Burns, when he was here the other day called special attention
to the depression of your building trade just now.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : There is temporary depression just now.
Mr. DEAKIN : When discussing emigration he said there were
a great number of those engaged in the building trade who would be
only too glad to emigrate.
Mr. LLOY^D GEORGE : It is a very curious trade. You will find
the building trade doing well when there is depression in other in-
390
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Eleventh
Day.
6th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
diistries. On the other hand it is the very last industry which picks
up. When the depression begins they are still building as a result
of the boom which has taken place, and the building has not been
completed. They do not start fresh building until a boom in trade
has been going on for some time. The prosperity of our building
trade will hardly begin again for perhaps six months or a year; then
it will begin. If you compare the number of men engaged to-day in
the building trade with those engaged in 1901, I guarantee there is
a higher percentage of people even now engaged in it than in 1901.
ilr. DEAKJX : By " engaged " you mean " employed."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes, actually employed. The same thing
applies to furniture, and to those engaged in the food, drink, and
lodging business, but I do not want to weary the Conference by giving
all those figures.
Something was said by Mr. Smartt with regard to cotton, and he
seemed to think that our cotton trade was being driven out from
South America, and that Manchester would have something to say
to this. Let me give these figures. There has been nothing like the
boom in the cotton trade during the last few years. In 1903 we ex-
ported from the United Kingdom of piece goods alone (which does
not contain the whole of our cotton exports). 55 million pounds'
worth. Last year we exported 75 million pounds' worth of piece
goods. That is an increase of 20 million pounds, worth. Germany
exported, in 1903, six million pounds' worth; last year they exported
seven million pounds' worth. That is an increase of 20 millions in
the export trade of the United Kingdom, and an increase of something
under one million in the export trade of Germany in cotton piece
goods. The exports from the United States increased from five mil-
lions to nine millions during the same period, and France has in-
creased from four millions to five million pounds' worth. So taking
all these countries together, they exported last year 21 million pounds'
worth of cotton piece goods, where we exported 75 million pounds'
worth of cotton piece goods, showing an excess of over 50 millions
sterling in favour of the United Kingdom. That is doing rather well.
Mr. F. R. !MOOTl: I am sorry to interrupt, but what are the re-
lative value of the raw material as regards this cotton in these years,
because, of course, if the raw material is considerably higher now it
makes a great difference in your finished value.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It has increased, but it does not account
certainly for all that enormous increase, and if it does, what of
France, and what of Germany, and what of the United States of
America ?
Mr. F. R. MOOR : It does not affect the proposition. They have
all to pay the same price for their raw material.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I agree, but I want to rioint out that
the increase in the value of the products exported t'l-oni Gcrinnny
during the five years is only one million pounds, and that is to cover
not merely the increase of quantity but the increase of price. The
increase here is 20 million pounds. As far as I can see, Mr. Moor
would suggest that Germany has rather gone back than otherwise,
and, if so, wt have gone on enormously. I am not sure that a million
would cover the difference in the price of the raw material in Ger-
many, but certainly the difference would be covered two or three
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 391
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
times over in our country. But I also have the figures here in yards. Eleventh
The figure I gave was for 1901. This will reassure Mr. Moor. In ,.n^^?"
1901. we exported 5,364 million yards oi cotton piece goods from this 1907 "
country. Last year we exported 6,201 millions. That is an increase ~ .
of nearly 900 million yards of cotton piece goods in the course of five "^ Trade.'"
years. That seems to me to he a very satisfactory state of things, so (Mr. Lloyd
far as cotton is concerned. George.)
Dr. JAMESON : It may be. It would be very interesting to have
the statistics.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: They are very interesting to us. We
have to live on them. They represent bread and meat from Australia
and Canada. They represent our purchasing capacity, and you really
ought to rejoice.
Dr. JAMESON : I do, and I hope you are always going to have
that prosperity.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Because there is not one single yard of
it that does not mean a threepenny chop of Australian mutton, or
something of that sort.
Dr. JAMESON: But how many or how few years ago is it that
Germany. France, &e., were exporting none, and now they are ex-
porting seven million pounds' worth?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Really, if you are not capable of being
satisfied by figures of this sort, you are the most insatiable of men.
Nothing will satisfy you. An increase of business in four years of
20 millions pounds is as nothing in your sight. Really I cannot do
better than that.
Mr. DEAKIN: He wants to keep it.
ilr. LLOYD GEORGE : You are not merely keeping it but im-
proving upon it. Really, I thought you were more reasonable, Mr.
Deakin.
Mr. DEAKIN : That explains his anxiety.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGrE : We have increased our business in
cotton alone by 20 million pounds in four years — more than the
whole of our trade with Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is good.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think so. Will you convince Dr.
Jameson that that is good enough ? The total of our exports of cotton
manufactures — I am sorry to disturb Dr. Jameson by these figures —
last year came to somewhere about 100 million pounds' worth. Now,
unless I am mistaken that is twice as much as the total of the cotton
erports of all the protected countries of the world put together. If
you are not satisfied with twice as much you are hard to please.
Dr. JAMESON : I am quite satisfied with the size of the figures,
and I am very glad they are large, and that there is so much margin
for a very slow decline.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Germany has really increased very little
in the course of 10 years.
Mr. DEAKIN: So much the better.
ilr. F. R. MOOR : What are the figures of the United States in
that comparative statement?
392 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1007
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The United States has increased by
6th Mar, 4,(X)0,000/., we have increased by 20.000,000/. Just think of it. The
1907." United States of America has got the cotton in one field and the
p ~ .. . factory in the next. At least she could have it; there is no reason
Trade. why she should not. We have on the other hand to carrj' our raw
(Mr. F. E. material thousands of miles across the sea, and still we beat them.
Moor.) jf ^jjg{ jg jj(j^ jj j.gg| triumph of British grit, skill and brains
Mr. PEA KIN : Long may it reign
Mr. IXOTD GEORGE : And a triumph of the free fiscal system,
I do not know what it is.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is an incubus. In spite of it yon sometimes
manage to increase, ily memory was correct as to what I said about
the building trade. Mr. Burns says : " At this moment we have, I
" am sorry to say, through reasons that I may not go into, a very
'' large number of men in the building trade who are slack of em-
" ployment.
Mr. LLOTD GEORGE : There is no doubt about it.
Mr. DEAKIX : We also have, proportionately to the Colonies,
" more surplus unskilled labourers than any of the Colonies possess,
" and it does seem to me that if those men in the building trades, who
" are a tj-pe of men that many of the Colonies pre-eminently want in
" opening vp new countries, were more closely informed as to the
" colonial requirements of labour, we should see a very considerable
" number of the men of the building and similar trades, seeking work
" in colonies where their work would, perhaps, be for the moment
" better, and perhaps ultimately more regular than it is now."
Mr. LLOTD GEORGE: Somebody said something about ship-
ping— Sir James Mackay, I think. The net tonnage of shipping be-
longing to the United Kingdom, is 10,700,000 tons. Germany, which
is our only real competitor, has 2,500,000 tons; so ours is just four
times as much as what she has got with all her subsidies and through
transit rates.
Mr. DEAKIX: That is only the Mercantile Marine?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. France has 1,400,000 tons, and
the United States of America have barely 1,000.000 tons, exclusive
of vessels not registered for oversea trade. Do not forget that one
time the United States of America divided the trade of the Atlantic
with us.
Mr. DEAKIN: Before the war?
Mr. LLO'i'T) GEORGE: Before she became a high tariff country.
I know the war drove her undoubtedly into high tariffs and into bad
ways.
Mr. DEAKIX: War destroyed her shipping.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: As Mr. Deakin says, it destroyed her
shipping.
Mr. DEAKIX: The "Alabama" helped to destroy her shipping.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The ' Alabama " an.l McKinley between
them destroyed her shipping.
Mr. DEAKIX : That is a matter of opinion as to McKinley.
Mr. LLOYD (iEORGE. If I were intereste.1 in British shipping
COIJtM.iL COXFEREXCE, 1907 393
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
financially, 1 would say. long may she (America) remain protee- Eleventh;
ti«*'"St! . c .^M,. . 6th" May,
With regard to the Colonies, Sir William Lyne was very di^- i907.
turbed when he left Sydney Harbour at the spectacle of half the _ ~ , .
shipping there flying a foreign flag. Well, I do not think he need be Trade,
very disturbed about our shipping trade with the Colonies. The (Mr. Lloyd
British tonnage, sailing and steam, in the inter-Colonial trade am- Oeorge.).
ounts to 20,500,000 tons.
Mr. DEAKrN : Does that include Australian shipping — local
steamers ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Xo, this is our shipping.
Mr. DEAKIN : Ours is your shipping, too.
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E: I mean now our Fnited Kingdom ship-
ping.
Mr. DEAKIN: All the world over?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : In all our Colonies.
Mr. DEAKIN: I thought you might refer only to those owned
in Australia?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Xo. The foreign tonnage is 3,200,000.
That is between one-sixth and one-seventh of ours. That is keeping a
good distance ahead. I have the figures for Australia, if Mr. Deakin
likes to have them. The total of entrances and clearances in the
oversea trade of Au.stralia in 1905 under the British flag was 5,500.-
000 tons, whilst that under foreign flags was only 1.900,000 vons. The
proportion there, I agree, is not so favourable to us as when you take-
the whole of our inter-Colonial trade.
Mr. DEAIvIN : You will remember Sir William Lyne speaks, as
any one of us would speak, with an experience beginning 20 years
ago, when you hardly saw a foreign flag there. That is what makes
a great impression in Australia.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I know. One reason for that is that
foreign countries are buying more from Australia than they ever did
before — more of your wheat and wool.
Mr. DEAIvIN: Formerly they carried it in British ships, now
they carry them in their own.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : They did not carry it at all. They were
rot customers of yours to the same extent as they are now. There is
another reason, no doubt — and there is no use concealing these things,
because they are quite obvious. In the old days the wool was bought
by us and sold to the Continent. Now you have a direct trade be-
tween the Continent and the Colonies. European countries prefer
buying direct. They do not want to employ the British middleman,
and they are quite right from their point of view ; but that was quite
inevitable. This is really the great Free Trade argument. The mo-
ment they buy from you, that creates trade; you start buying back;
it has had the inevitable effect. As long as we were the purchasers
we got the whole of the advantages ; as soon as they became pur-
chasers they got a share of the advantages ; and that has always im-
pressed us in our Free Trade argument. The mere fact that we are
able to trade freel.y with the whole world and open our markets to
them makes them buy from us. Therefore, if w^e go to any market —
the Argentine, China, Japan, France, Germany — to sell there, we
394
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Eleventh
Day.
6th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
<Mr. Llo.vil
George, i
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
come home with something we have bought. That is undoubtedly the
reason why there is more trade between the Colonies and foreign
pountries than there used to be. That is all I have to say about these
figures. If there is anything further anybody likes to ask before I
finally leave them, I shall be happy to give it. I am afraid in the
Colonies the towering figure of Mr. Chamberlain has given undue
prominence to the gloomy views he has uttered about the trade of the
British nation. Of course, everything he said would be reported very
fully there, and when he said our iron trade had gone, and wool was
going, and cotton was disappearing, it naturally created an impres-
sion in the Colonies that things were really very bad with British
trade, but I am glad the matter has been raised here, as it has enabled
me to elucidate it with the figures which I have quoted to you.
I do not propose to deal with the separate point raised in the Aus-
tralian resolution as to preferential trade between the Colonies and
this country being carried in British ships. I understand Mr. Deakin
is going to raise the point about treaties, and I think I will defer
what I have to say on that point until I have heard his remarks.
We have been told and we have met all the approaches of the
Colonies with blank negatives; that for all the substantial conces-
sions— and I am very happy to recognise that they are substantial —
which have been made in their tariffs in favour of our trade, we ,are
prepared to offer no return. Let me here express for the Board of
Trade, whose duty it is to watch carefully all that affects our trade
in all parts of the world, our appreciation of the enormous advantage
conferred upon the British manufacturer by the preference given to
him in the Colonial markets by recent tariff adjustments. The Cana-
dian preferential tariff has produced a marked effect on our export
trade to Canada. It is true that it seems to have benefited Canada
even to a larger extent than it has profited us, for I observe from our
Trade Returns that our purchases from the Canadian producer have
increased, and are still increasing by leaps and bounds, with one or
two set backs, and I attribute the great improvement in the trade
between Canada and this country very largely to the wise policy of
reducing the duties on goods imported from the Mother Country
which Sir Wilfrid Laurier initiated in 1897. It has undoubtedl.v
stimulated trade between the two countries. The South African and
the New Zealand preferential tariffs have not yet been put to the test
by much actual experience; but I cannot for a moment doubt that in
some measure the happy results which liave ensued from the Cana-
dian preference will be repeated in these cases. The same observa-
tion of course applies to Australia ; and Great Britain feels, and
ought to feel, grateful, not merely for the actual concessions which
have been proposed, but even more for the spirit of comradeship^
and I think I may even say of affection — which has inspired this new
policy. But it is said, it is not enough that .you should express your
gratitude. The question is, what are .vou prepared to do in return?
I know this has not been put in this form by the Colonies. There is
something in Dr. Jameson's resolution which looks ix>rilonsly like it,
but I am sure that the Colonies would not wish to present their case
in that form, as they know it would detract from the real value of
their action and certainly from its spontaneity. It has been so put
by others, and we are bound to take note of it. My first answer would
be that Great Britain is the best customer the Colonies have for their
products. In the last year for which complete information is avail-
COLONIAL COXFERENOE, 1907
395
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
able the exports from the Self -Governing Colonies to all foreign coun-
tries jimouuted to 40* million pounds, whilst the exports to the United
Kingdom amounted to 93 million pounds, or, excluding bullion and
specie, to 66 million pounds. But I should also observe that it is
certainly to our mutual advantage that everything within reason
should be done to promote commercial intercourse between Britain
and the Colonies, and I should be exceedingly sorry if this Con-
ference parted without devoting itself to a careful consideration of
every suggestion which has been made for the purpose of developing
inter-Imfierial commerce. One danger of giving undue prominence to
a controvertible suggestion for arriving at a particular end, is that
the controversy about that suggestion tends to obscure all other pro-
posals for attaining the same end. Nations which have been accus-
tomed to self-government are apt to attach exaggerated importance
to the controversy of the moment. That is our danger just now. I
am afraid of the question of ijreferential tariffs looms so large on the
political horizon that its friends may lose its sense of proportion, and
think that every alternative proposition is too insignificant to waste
time and thought upon. I am glad to think that Mr. Deakin does not
thinlv so.
Mr. DEAKIX : Xo, preferential tariffs are only part of the policy
of preferential trade.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am glad to hear that, but may I
appeal to the members of the Conference before they separate to de-
vote some part of their deliberations to the examination of other pro-
posals which have been made for the development of Imperial trade?
If they fail to do so, in my humble judgement, opportunities may be
lost which may not soon recur. I have an idea of what may be pass-
ing in my friends' minds on this point, though they are too courteous
to express it at this Conference. They have been assured that Col-
onial preference is much nearer than we seem to imagine. I know
they have been told that the electors have repented of the hasty verdict
which they delivered so emphatically eighteen months ago, and that
when the oijportunity recurs for them to reconsider their decision, it
will be given for the policy which is embodied in this resolution.
Well, this is no place to embark upon a review of the political situa-
tion here, or elsewhere; but it is not altogether irrelevent to the dis-
cussion to present two or three considerations for the members of the
Conference to reflect upon. This is not the first time the question
of Protection has been an issue between parties in this way even
within my memory.
Dr. JAMESON : That horrid word " Protection " !
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I will accept any word. I do not want to
quarrel about words. What is your word.
Dr. JAMESON: Colonial preference.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Well it was not presented in that form
then. In 1895 it was called " Fair Trade." They always change the
name. In 1SS5 it was presented in the form of Fair Trade. The
Conservative Party took it up very heartily. At that time it looked
as if, to use Lord George Hamilton's phrase, it were ' a winning
horse," but it was beaten; Free Trade won. I think, by a majority of
100. That was a time of very bad trade. So these proposals with re-
gard to imposing tariffs on foreign goods, had every advantage which
Kleventh
Day.
6th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
COLOMAL COyFEREyCE. loor
Eleventh
Day.
6th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
the eircumstancps of the moment could give them. But what fright-
ened the country off Protection then is what will frighten it off Pro-
tection again, and that is not unimportant for you to consider when
you think of your proposals for Colonial preference. What frightened
the country then was the fear of a tax. or a diity. on food. The
agricultural labourers in the counties, the miners and the artisans,
would not have it. Wliat happened in 1S86 — and here is a thing I
want you to reflect upon, if I may put it in that form without offence
— was that an opportunity then presented itself for the Fair Trade
party to come into power on one condition, and that was that it should
jettison its Protectionist policy. The Liberal Party proposed a
measure which alienated a very considerable portion of its own
friends. The Liberal Unionists were then Free Traders, and they
said to the Tory party : " We are quite willing to combine with you
" on a policy of resistance to these Irish proposals on one condition,
" that the administration when it is formed., is to be a Free Trade
" one." And Protection was abandoned. In 1885 no one could possi-
bly have prophesied what would have happened in 1886. It was some-
thing which occured quite suddenly and une.xiiccteilly. It was a shock
even, I think, to Mr. Gladstones best friends, and in 1886 the Con-
servatives, who were pledged to Protection and tariffs, came in as a
Free Trade party and remained in power as a Free Trade party for
20 years. So much were they a Free Trade party, that even the
shilling duty on corn which was ptit on in an emergency was taken
off when it might very well have been used for the purpose of pre-
ference to the Colonies. They did not take it off for the sake of
preference. The Unionist party were in as a Free Trade party, and
were in for 20 years as a Free Trade party, and the proposal which
you arc now making to us for a i>referenee on Colonial wine they
would not look at, they were so squeamish in their Free Trade princi-
ples : that was the Unionist party for 20 years, -\lthough in 1885
they were Protectionists tip to the lips, in 1886 they became Free
Trade, because, I will not say it was the temptation of getting in, be-
cause that would be an unfair reflection, and the sort of reflection
that, though parties make them against each other, is, I think, un-
justifiable— but they felt there was a bigger, a more urgent and a
more imminent issue; in their judgment, the country was face to face
with a possible disaster, ami they had to save it even at the risk of
throwing over their Fair Trade principles. The.v never became a
Protectionist party again until the last election. They were beaten
in 1885 by 100; they were beaten in 1906 by 300, at least, and I have
no hesitation in saying that whatever the contributory elements to
that disaster were, there was none that was more potent than the pro-
posals made for a preferential tariff which involved a tax on food. I
do not say that was the only issue. It would not be fair for me to
say so. You are all gentlemen who have fought elections, and you
know you cannot say that 45 per cent, of the result is due to this
consideration and 20 per cent, to another consideration. But I do
say that this was one of the largest elements. That is twenty years
after the proposals were made, and now it is a time of booming trade.
Then it was a very disappointing time of bad trade. What is your
position now ^ Have you noticiM] — and hero I want to k"ep clear of
party politics — that our party is sidid against taxing food ^ I am
going to put this frankly. Is the other party us solid in favour of
it? Mr. Balfour, the late Priiui' Minister, when he was Prime Minis-
roi.iisni, loMKREyCE, 1907 397
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ter and lyoiulcr cil' the Party, said at Sheffield that this country, in Eleventh
his judgment, tor historical reasons, could not bo iudtioed to put a KfiPii?'
tax on corn. He stood l).v that position for two or three years, and 1907. " '
at the last general election not half of the Conservative candidates .
in the country ever put a duty on corn on their programmes. They "^Trade '^
were asked "Will you do it?" They either avoided the question or ,-^^ Llord
said : No, they would not. I do not think I am exaggerating when George.)
I say that was the case with fully one-half of them. Some of the
most powerful members of that party now are men — I do not want
to name them — who are opposed to the idea of a dut.v on com to the
very utmost extremity. Their names will present themselves to your
minds. Dr. Jameson knows them very well. Where is ilr. Balfour
now? Two months ago the question was put to him directly in the
House of Commons : " Would you put a duty on corn as a basis of
"your preferential tariff"? He absolutely refused to reply. He said
something about wine, but that is a small matter frona any point of
view — too small a matter in my judgment to affect the position one
way or the other. But when you come to the large and tlie most im-
portant matter, the question of corn, the Leader of the Opposition
refused to pledge himself. Has he done so now ? I have seen two or
tliree interpretations of the declarations he has made — interpreta-
tions placed upon him b.v his own supporters. Were you to write a
letter to him to say : " Does this mean Mr. Balfour, that if you were
'■' returned to power next year ,vou would propose a duty on corn in
" order to give a preference to the Colonies ?" the Liberal Publication
Department would pay a good price for the answer, if it should be
in the affirmative. Tou will not get it. I am certain you will not.
What may happen in the course of the next two or three years, heaven
alone knows. You may have some other great issue precipitated into
the arena which will divide parties and recast them. You cannot
tell. No one can predict now how much the fiscal issue will count
at the next general election — things change so rapidly in our politics,
as in the politics of other countries. There may be a combination to
tight the present Government on other issues which may be sprung
upon them. But you must not assume too readily that the question
of preferential tariffs is going to be, I will not say a dominating
factor, but even a factor at all in the next appeal b.v the other party
to the electors of this country. My reason for saying this is to ask
whether, having regard to all these considerations, it would not be
well to devote some time to the consideration of proposals of a dif-
ferent character.
Mr. DEAKIN : A bird in hand.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is it. Would it not be well to
devote some time to the consideration of proposals which are none
the less important in practical effect in that they are not flavoured
with an element of bitter controversy? Sir Joseph Ward, the Pre-
mier of New Zealancl, in the important speech which he delivered in
this debate, has brought before the Conference two or three pro-
positions to which it would in my judgment be well worth our while
to devote our most careful consideration. He made, as far as I can
recollect, three important suggestions; one was the improvement and
the cheapening of cable communications with this country ; the sec-
ond was the appointment of commercial agents or consuls in the
Colonies, whose business it would be to assist British trade; and the
398
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh
Day.
6th Mar,
1907.
third — and this is undoubtedly the most important and also the most
difficult, if I may say so, of the three suggestions which Sir Joseph
Ward made — was the improvement of the communications for the
Preferential transport and passenger traffic between the Mother Country and the
Trade. Colonies. As to the first, it would be an undoubted advantage to the
(Mr. Lloyd traders in all these countries if they could communicate their orders
Cieorge.) quickly at rates which would not be practically prohibitive. Our
main object ought to be to shorten the distance between ourselves and
cur Colonies by every means at our command. It is the distance that
handicaps colonial trade in competition with foreign countries which
are more favourably situated. As to the second suggestion, a good
deal has already been done; but I am not at all satisfied that we have
by any means done all that it is in our power to do on this point. I
think we have proceeded on much too frugal a scale. If Canada,
Australia, and New Zealand had been foreign countries, we should
liave appointed first-class consuls at a remuneration which would
make it worth their while to attend to the business of our merchants
in those countries. It would have enabled us to secure first-class men.
But seeing that they are British Colonies, we have satisfied ourselves
with ninning our trade intelligence in these vast territories, with
their endless possibilities, on the cheap. That, I agree, is a flaw
which has to be repaired.
I am doubly glad that the Prime Minister of Xew Zealand raised
this question while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was present to
hear his observations. I am not blaming the Treasury, and I cer-
tainly am not blaming the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has
invariably — and if I ma,v add, ungrudgingly — acceded to every re-
quest made to him by the Board of Trade to spend money in im-
proving and equipment of our Commercial Department, and he has
answered our appeals on a very generous scale in the course of the
past year, when much greater demands have been made upon him
than for many years past. But it shows the advantage of initiating
discussions about practical proposals, that Sir Joseph Ward's refer-
ence to this subject has encouraged us to go to the Treasury again.
Mr. ASQUITH: Already?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes, and the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer has arrived in this room at a most opportune moment. We
have approached the Treasury for the purpose of asking them to
grant us more lavish assistance in organising our system for obtain-
ing more complete commercial information in the Colonies, and for
assisting our traders there. All we want them to do for us is what
they are doing for us already in foreign countries. We do not ask
for more at the present moment. We are now considering the ques-
tion of appointing what I nui.v call " Imperial commercial travellers,"
if I ma.v put it in that form, whose business it will be to move about
in the Colonies to investigate trade conditions and requirements, and
to see especially where our trade rivals are getting advantage over
us, and to report fidly on all these points to the Commercial Depart-
ment of the Board of Trade. From that Department the information
will be confidentially disseminated in the proper quarters. They will
also visit the great industrial centres of this country, and will
ascertain what kind of produce raised in our Colonies there is a real
demand for and how best it can be met by the colonial )iroducer. We
hope by this s.ystem to produce greater commercial intercourse be-
COLONIAL COXFERENGE, 1907 399
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tween the Colonies and the Mother Country, which will be to tho Eleventh
advantage of all. This is only one out of the many things — small in I'^J'-
themselves perhaps, but important in the aggregate — which we are 1907^^'
not merely thinking over but taking steps to put into actual opera-
tion. Any further suggestions of a kindred kind that come from the Preferential
Colonies we shall be most thankful for. We have a natural preference /y,. lio-.j
for trading with our (^olonies, and we would like to know George.)
how we could best achieve our ends in this regard in a way that would
not hurt, but would rather help our people as well as yours.
Now, we come to the third and undoubtedly the mjst momentous
question of all. It is also. I need hardly say, the suggestion, the
working of which is most fraught with difficulty — I will even say
with danger — and it has therefore to be approached very carefully
and very guardedly with a sincere desire to give it as favourable a
consideration as the exigencies of our world-wide trade would justify.
It was also put forward in the first instance by Sir Joseph Ward, and
it received the support of all those who have hitherto taken part in
this great debate. I think also Mr. Deakin and Mr. Moor referred
vo it, and I think also Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Mr. DEAEIN : They are all parts of one policy.
Mr. ASQUITH : Sir Wilfrid Laurier had already made a definite
proposal on the subject, I understand.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes, he has. It is to improve the com-
munications for transport and transit between the Mother Country
and the Colonies. Let me say now that in considering this proposal
we ought at once to eliminate any idea that a policy of general sub-
sidies would in the least degree benefit our shipping. From that point
of view, it has been proved by the experience of France and other
countries that any nation helping shipping by means of general
State subsidies is thoroughly unsound, and may even be disastrous;
and I therefore at once dismiss any suggestion which may be made
of approaching this question of improved communications from that
point of view. The British Government, you may depend upon it,
has gone into this matter very carefully. I do not mean merely the
present Government. When our trade rivals are subsidising steam-
ships, there is naturally enough a panic from time to time in this
country amongst those who are financially interested in our shipping,
and any momentray set back which is inflicted on our shipping is al-
ways 'attributed to the aggressive policy of foreign Governments. We
have subsequently always found on investigation, that the extent to
which foreign governments do aid their shipping has been in every
ease grossly exaggerated. The subsidies of Germany are not, with one or
two exceptions, at all considerable factors in the development of their
trade. In fact, if you compare the subsidies of Germany with what
we are giving to our shipping in the way of payment for postal ser-
vices, I do not think that they pay their shipping on as generous a
scale as we do. With those one or two exceptions, which I have
already mentioned, where by means in the one case of a direct sub-
sidy to their East African line of steamers, which has now crept on
to Durban, and in other cases, by means of through rates of traffic
on their railway system, by which undoubtedly they are assisting, not
merely their shipping, but to a much larger extent their export trader
(he is the man who benefits most by that and not the shipowner)
Mr. DEAKIN: There is the extraordinary growth of the Nord-
400 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Elerenth deutscher Lloyd in recent years ; its recent union with the Hamburg-
6th Mar, Amerika, and the dividend it pays.
Mr. LLOTD GE0E3E: I am not reflecting upon our own ship-
Preferential owners, but that is very largely due to the extraordinarily skilful
Trade. management of a magnificent organisation.
(Mr.
Deakm.) Mr. DEAKIN : That adds to it.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: There is no doubt about that. For-
tunately some time ago the late Government appointed a committee
to inquire into shipping subsidies, and I think by way of giving con-
fidence to my friend Sir William Lyne, I ought at once to say that
four out of the sis members of the Committee appointed for that
purpose were strong Tariff Reformers. They heard a good deal of
evidence: they examined a good many documents; they sat long and
they sat late; and after I think weeks, if not months, of careful sift-
ing of all the evidence, they came to a conclusion which was un-
hesitatingly adverse to a policy of general government subsidies for
British shipping. As this is a matter of great moment, I will make
no apology for referring to the conclusions arrived at by this impor-
tant Committee. I ■will not read them out but I will put them in : —
EhXOMMENDATIONS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE OX STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES.
■■ Your Committee trust, in conclusion, that they have collected
■"a large amount of valuable information; they are not directed by
" the terms of the reference to make recommendations, but it may be
" convenient to siunmarize their opinions expressed in the course of
'■ this Report. They are : —
" 1. That the granting of shipping subsidies at considerable
l^ecuniary cost by foreign Governments has favoured the develop-
ment of competition against British shipowners and trade upon
the principal routes of ocean communication, and assisted in the
transfer from British to continental ports of some branches of
foreign and colonial trade; but that, notwithstanding the foster-
ing effect of subsidies upon foreign competition, British steam
shipping and trade have in the main held their own, and under
fair conditions British shipowners are able to maintain the mari-
time commerce of the country.
" 2. That subsidies are the minor factorj and conuncrclal skill
and industry the major factors, of the recent development of the
shipping and trade of certain foreign countries, and notably of
Germany, where, for example, the granting of through bills of
lading via the State railways has had an important effect. In some
other countries subsidies have led to no satisfactory results.
" 3. That the subsidies given by foreign Governments to
selected lines or owners tend to restrict free competition, and so
to facilitate the establishments of federations and shipping rings,
and therefore that no subsidy should be granted without Govern-
ment control over maxinuuu rates of freight and ovor this com-
bination of subsidised with unsubsidised owners to restrict com-
petition.
"4. That the competition of British shipowners with their
commercial rivals upon fair conditions, without Government in-
terference by way of subsidies, or by way of control of freights is
more healthy, and likely to ho. more beneficial to the nation and
COLOXISL COXFEREXCE, 1907 401
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Empire than a State-subsidised, and State-controlled system under Eleventh
which the shipowner would have to depend less upon his individual rx^^*
energy and skill, and more upon the favour and support of the 1907^^'
Government.
" 5. That a general system of subsidies other than for services ^'^Xrade*"''
rendered is costly and inexpedient. /jl,. i,\o\d
''C^. That rare cases occur where in view of special imperial George.)
considerations subsidies are necessary for establishing fast direct
British communication and that at the present moment such a
subsidy should be favourably considered for a line to East Africa
where there is no direct British steamship service, and where
British trade is handicapped by foreign subsidised steamship
lines.
"7. That in all cases of subsidies it is desirable as far as
possible to observe the following principles: —
"(i.) That every endeavour should be made to maintain the
pre-eminence of British lines, and that it is desirable to secure
unification of control by placing the final negotiations in the
hands of a small jwrmanent Committee.
"(ii.) That a condition of adequate speed should form part
of every subsidj', to ensure rapid conmiunication within the Em-
pire, or to secure fast carriers of food supplies in time of war, or
to meet Admiralty requirements.
"(iii.) That no British subsidy should be granted except on
condition that the whole or partial sale or hire of any ship in
receipt of the subsidy cannot take place without jwrmission of
the Government.
"It is desirable that the majority of the boards of directors
of subsidised companies should be British subjects.
"(iv.) That on subsidised vessels the captain, officers, and a
proportion of the crew ought to be British subjects.
" 8. That with a view to the fair competition of British ship-
owners with their foreign rivals —
'(i.) Board of Trade regulations shovild be enforced against
foreign ships equally with British ships.
"(ii.) Light dues should be abolished.
"(iii.) Means should be taken to obtain the removal of foreign
laws and regulations which exclude the British shipowners from
the trades appropriated by various foreign Powers to their own
shipping as "coasting trade," and that if need be, regulations for
the admission of foreign vessels to the British and Colonial trade
of this Empire should be used with the object of seriuring reci-
procal advantages for British shipowners abroad."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The Committee reported very strongly
against general subsidies, and they came to the conclusion that subsi-
dies are the minor factor, and commercial skill and industry the
major factors, in the recent development of the shipping and trade
of certain foreign countries, and notably of Germany, where, for ex-
ample, the granting of through bills of lading by the State railways
has had an important effect. In some other countries subsidies have
led to no satisfactory results. May I say this, that in my judg-
ment if we wanted really to give the best possible Government assist-
ance to our trade it would be by means of a consideration of the whole
problem of our railway system, because the railway system in Ger-
many is so worked as to assist the export trade of Germany. Our
58— 2C
402 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh system is worked here so as to help the man who wants to import from
iP\r' foreign countries. The German railway is a honus on exports; the
1907. " ' British railway is a bonus to the foreign exporter to this country.
Preferential ^^' DEAKIX : One of your lines of railway discriminates in
Trade. favour of foreign imports as against Colonial imports.
* GeorgO^ Mr. ASQUITH: What is that in reference to?
ilr. DEAKIX : Danish butter and dairy produce has a preference
on one, if not more, lines of railway in this country. I have that
on the authority of people in the trade.
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE : There are verj- bad cases. We are be-
ing driven to consider very carefully the whole policy of our railway
system.
Sir T^^LFErD LAFRIER: What is the system you refer to?
Mr. DEAKm : The through rate.
Mr. ASQUITH: An inclusive through rate.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The German through rate I understand
is given, provided it is shipped in a German ship.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is a through rate. For instance,
you pay, let us say. 56s. a ton from a point inland in Germany to
Durban. Supposing you have to go 400 miles further inland to get
those goods, instead of paying what would be a fair and reasonable
railway rate for the transport of the goods, say, from Magdeburg to
Bremen, you only pay an additional Is. or 2s., or some trifling simi
of that sort. It is obvious that it does not pay the railway to carry
these goods at a half-penny or a farthing per ton per mile. There-
fore, somebody must be making up the loss, and the loss falls upon
the railway system as a whole. The shipowner gets his 51s., or
whatever the charge may be. The loss does not fall upon him; he
does not contribute.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER : That is the question of long haulage
and short haidage. You may have goods put on for many miles
paying no more than for short haulage. It is a constant source of
trouble, not so much in Canada as in the United States.
Mr. DEAKIN : Many of the Trust operations in America have
been conducte-l under that cover.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is one of their operations; but
their operations are legion. It is the cause of trouble in the United
States 'iii'cli more than in Canada.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is a much more glaring thing than
that. For irMnnce, you would hardly charge practically the same
rate for carr;s'ing goods for 10 miles as for carrying them 500 miles,
would you ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I understand that under the present
syst* m Ihey m:il".e through rate from the point inland to port of ex-
portnli" n both for the railway and shipping.
Sir .loSLPJI WARD: At a low rate if going by their own shi >•
pimt
Mr. ASQUITH : To the ultimate, point of destination.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: For instance, from Munich to Constanti-
nople a German who is a manufacturer and exporter of a similar
line of goods to a manufacturer in England can, in some form or
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 19U7 403
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
another, get a rate from Munich to Constantinople so as to give him Eleventh
the chance of ohlaining the trade in the Levant more favourably than tiP^'
another manufacturer producing an article in England of the same 1907.
character can get to the sea-board and on to a steamer.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I know. Here is a case. " The mileage Trade,
"rate charged under this tariff" — this special through-rate-tariff — "by (Sir Joseph
"the German State railway for the carriage of goods may be approxi- »^ard.)
"mately estimated in the following manner. Taking, for instance,
"the rate per ton of 1,000 kilos for 10 tons of the highest class of
"goods (such as india-rubber articles, hats, silks, electro-plate, shoes,
"&c.) from Munich to Alexandria, Bralia, Constantinople, Galatz,
" &c., this would be 7s. Taking on the other hand the rate for the
"same goods to the same destination from Bergedorf about 10 miles
"only from Hamburg, the same is only 56s. Id. It would result
"therefrom that 14.s. lid. is the mileage rate for the railway carriage
"between Munich and Bergedorf, and that the rate per ton per mile
, "(as Munich is 493 miles from Bergedorf) is thus a fraction over
"one-third of Id." No railway in the world can carry those goods
at that rate. It therefore means that the cost falls upon the State
system of railways.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Do you mean the loss is borne by the
State ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : By the railways. The whole system be-
longs to the State in Germany, and the State makes a great profit
upon the system as a whole. It pays them undoubtedly well. The
German traders I saw here a short time ago were very satisfied with
the whole system, and said it was worked in such a way as to assist
the development of trade and industry there.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The whole thing is scientifically worked
now.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. I have put in the conclusions of
this Committee, so that the Members of the Conference can peruse
them at their leisure. I would not think for my part of even con-
sidering a suggestion of this character if it were intended in any way
as a proposal for buttressing up British shipping at the expense of
the general tax-payer. I think it is better to say so at once, in order
to clear that idea out of the way. It will make it all the easier for
us to discuss the proposal actually outlined from other points of view.
I gather that that is the opinion of Sir Joseph Ward also. He has
not put it on the ground of subsidising ships.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Certainly not.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I know his anxiety is— and that anxiety
we share with him — to bring the Colonies and the Mother Country
nearer together in point of time, and to bring their produce to the
market, if possible, at rates which would not unduly handicap them
in competition with foreign countries. We realise that the Empire
produces almost every conceivable commodity required by her inhabi-
tants. One of the advantages of an Empire so widely scattered is
that it possesses every character of climate and soil; but on the other
hand the disadvantages of such geographical distribution is to be
fqynd in the difficulty of bringing the commodities to its consumers
in the different parts of the Empire as required. This resolves
itself into a question of facilities for transport: the provision of the
58— 26J
404
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Eleventh
Day.
6th Mar,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
means for rapid and inexpensive communication between the con-
stituent parts of the Empire. The problem that has been suggested
to us by Sir Joseph Ward and Sir Wilfrid Laurier and other speakers
is to reduce, as far as possible, the natural disadvantage of distance
under which we suffer. The prompt and the cheap delivery of foods,
perishable articles, and raw materials is a very big factor to the con-
sumer and manufacturer, and it is these commodities which are so
largely produced in the Colonies and so largely required in this
country. The development and acceleration of inter-Imperial com-
munication for business purposes would undoubtedly be a movement
in which all parts of the Empire would share for their mutual benefit.
It would result, not only in increased facilities for the marketing of
goods and for stimulating the development of trade, but in giving
important opportunities to the movement of individuals from one
part of the Empire to another. By bringing the distant parts of the
Empire nearer to the centre it woidd make the Empire more com-
pact. AU that is an essential element in trade. This is the pro-
posal which is put before us, and it is well worthy of our best, and.
I would say, of our most immediate consideration. We have had
no schemes placed before us up to the present, and in a decision of
such vital consequence, direct and indirect, not merely to the trade,
but to the general efficiency of the Empire, the method of working is
of the very essence of the scheme. I could conceive plans which
wtth the best intentions in the world would lead to dissension, diffi-
culty, perhaps disaster; but it ought not to be beyond the resources of
British statesmanship to devise some plan which will achieve an end
in itself so desirable. In my mind, it would have at least this one
advantage over preferential tariffs : I believe — and in this I share the
conviction of millions of my fellow-countrymen — that a preferential
tariff, necessarily involving as it does a duty on corn and raw ma-
terials, would increase the price of products which it is necessar.v that
our people should get at the lowest possible price. In that I gather
from Mr. Deakin, he does not quite agree with me; and Dr. Jameson
certainly took exception to that statement when I made it before. On
the other hand, the improvement of our transport facilities would
have the effect of elieapening the price of the Colonial commodities
which we are so anxious to get into our markets to feed our manu-
facturers and our men. Now, you may ask whether I have anything
definite to propose. The proposal was first made to us by Sir Joseph
Wi rd on Tuesday last. He, I gather, is not prepared to submit any
definite, settled, and thought-out scheme. He contented himself in
Ills sijcech with giving a general indication of the lines upon which
a discussion of this topic might usefully proceed. Would it not be
wfl] that schemes should be elaborated in detail after thinking out all
the ramifications of the problem with which we are confronted? I
have during the last few days seen a good many men who are experts
on such questions, and talked to them upon this subject, and whilst
the.v have convinced me that the difficulties to be overcome are enor-
mous, I am not satisfied that the project is a hopeless one. Once
these schemes have been prepared and presented with the f\ill re-
sponsibilit.v of the respective Ooverniuents behind them, we might
then each examine them and conf(M- further on the question.
There is one other matter to which T feel T otight to refer. It
has been imputed to the Oovernincnt of which I am a member that
it has coldshouldered the Colonies.
COLU.M.IL CO^FEIiEyCE, 1907 405
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIX: Arc you referring to a remark made bv me? Eleventh
^^^ ' Dav
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I think it was made by you. 6th May,
Mr. DEAlvIN: I have already pointed out several times that the ___'.
very necessarj' habit of newspaper compression was responsible for Preferential
that expression being misinterpreted. I was speaking to an audience Trade,
of ladies- the Victoria League — where I met a deputation from the Qeoree)
British Woman's Emigration League. Both in speaking to me com-
plained as others did of not receiving the encouragement which they
thought they were entitled to from the Government of this country.
Their complaints related to matters extending over a certain number
of years, and therefore refers not to any particular government but
to your governments in general. Complaints of what we in the Colo-
nies with our habits of State action certainly consider an unsympa-
thetic attitude in your governments and departments generally are
constantly made. I was speaking on that platform in that relation,
urging them not to cease their admirable work of sending out women
of character, reputation and assisting them to become established
in the Colonies, nor to cease to use your educational systems to fami-
liarise them with our advantages. I urged them not to be discouraged
by any cold-shouldering on the part of governments or their depart-
ments. Some of my colleagues here were present. I was urging
them not to relax their efforts nor to permit themselves to be crushed,
but to appeal from the departmental neglect and to rely upon public
support to enable them to do what we in the Colonies think our Gov-
ernments ought to assist them in doing there. It was in that par-
ticular relation the word "cold-shoulder" was used. I had not at the
moment anything in my mind that has transpired at this Confer-
ence.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am sure I am delighted to hear that.
Mr. ASQUITH: And I, too.
Mr. DE.AKiy : If I had anything to say on that topic that would
not have been the meeting or the place at which I should have said it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is what I thought. It would have
been better to say it here face to face. I am not quarrelling so much
with what you said as with the interpretation placed upon it by cer-
tain journals. I am not sorry I have referred to it, because it has
given Mr. Deakin the opportunity of clearing up that matter.
Mr. DEAKIN : I have corrected it in several places already.
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E: All I say is, that we have given to the
Colonies the answer which they woxild have given us if we had en-
deavoured to induce them for Imperial or other reasons to change
their fiscal system, a system established, according to Mr. Deakin,
purely in the interests of Australia. That is the fiscal system you
consider best in the interest of Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN : Our fiscal system in the interest of Australia and
our preference system in the interest of the Empire.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We could have given them no other re-
ply to any proposal which involved the taxing of the food of the
people ; and the Colonial representatives knew that before they started
for this Conference. I would ask them to consider what are the
conditions of a thickly-populated country like ours, dependent for its
supplies on other lands. If Australia and New Zealand had the
406 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eleventh same population per square mile as Great Britain has, then the Aus-
Gth ^av tralian census would reveal the presence of more rtian a thousand
1907. " ' luillion of men and women and children crowded on Australian soil,
p ~ . dependent inevitably as we are for the very necessaries of hfe upon
Trade. \vhat is brought to their harbours of the surplus of other lands. Let
(Mr. Lloyd Australia pray God, when that time comes, that she may have no
George.) slums on her soul.
Mr. DEAKIN : We will not, if legislation can prevent it.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: I know. I was very much impressed
by what Sir Joseph Ward told me about the social position of the
people of New Zealand. He assured me that for years no beggar
had accosted him in that fortunate land. We, in these old countries,
are not so happily circumstanced. Neither Free Trade nor Protec-
tionist countries can claim that they are immune from dire poverty
and distress amongst large masses of their population. We have
in every old country of the world multitudes of poor people who, from
the cradle to the grave, are never out of sight or hearing distance
of the wolves of hunger. Attempts have often been made to saddle
our fiscal system with responsibility for the distress of our times;
there might have been something to say for that had Protectionist
countries been free from the same condition, and also if it had not
been for the fact that Britain is, in spite of everything, the richest
country under the sun per head of her population. Free Trade has
been a great success as a wealth-creating machine, and all this
wretchedness is not so much the sorrow as the shame of Great Britain.
Had our Colonial friends proposed resolutions calling upon us to use
the gigantic resources of this coimtry to put an end for ever to a
condition of things which is a blot on the fair fame of the Empire as
a whole, then we should have been happy to have assented to their
resolution, and to do all in our power to give it effect. But an altera-
tion in our fiscal system is not going to achieve this end ; the causes
are deeper, as they are older, than any existing fiscal system. The
most rabid Free Trader would not have contended that the abolition
of the tariffs of the Continent would put an end to all the poverty
that exists in Continental countries, and we feel perfectly certain
that a change from Free Trade to Protection would simply aggravate
the distress we wish altogether to avert. You seem in the New
World to be profiting by the bitter experience of the Old. and dealing
thoroughly and effectively with the social and economic evils thar
afflict your people ere those evils harden into malignity : but when
we seek to heal those sores in these tradition-bound countries, we
do so timidl.y and fearfully, as men would attempt interfering with
the dispensations of Providence. It will be a long time ere we can
summon the courage to apply remedies which you have already
boldly used for less aggravated evils. In the meantime there will
be m\ich suffering and privation in this land of abundant plenty. Wo
beseech you. then, not to lend countenance to any schemes wliich, how-
ever much they might profit you, would have the effect of increasing
by one grain of sand the weight of unendiirablc poverty now borne
by many sons and daughters of this affluent country.
I am exceedingly obliged to the Confcvence for having listened
to me so patiently.
Adjourned to to-morrow at half-past 10 o'clock.
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
407
TWELFTH DAT.
Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Tuesday, 7th May, 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EAEL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodel r. Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph W.\hd, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. S.martt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Caise Colony).
The Eight Honourable Sir Egbert Bont), K.C.M.Q., Prime Minis-
ter of Newfoundland.
The Honourable F. E. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
The Eight Honourable Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamen-
tary Under Secretary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Sec-
retary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. M.\CKAY, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G., ) , ■ „
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., Y"'"^ Secretaries.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also Presents:
The Eight Honourable H. H. Asquith, M.P., Chancellor of the
Exchequer.
The Eight Honourable D. Lloyd George, M.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
• Mr. W. RuNciMAN, M.P., Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, C.B., Permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Twelfth
Day.
7th Mav,
1907. ■
408 COLONIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth Mr. A. WasoN Fox, C.B., Comptroller-General of the Commercial,
"th llf' Statistical, and Labour Departments of the Board of Trade.
1907!*^' Mr. G. J. Stanley, C.M.G., of the Board of Trade.
Trade
Mr. Algertox L.\w, of the Foreign OiHce.
Mr. Thomas TV. Holderness, C.S.I., of the India Office.
PREFERENTIAL TRADE.
^^referential CHAIRMAN: I am not quite sure how the members of the Con-
ference would wish to proceed at this particular point of our pro-
ceedings, but I think we are all agreed that we must, if possible,
close the discussion oai which we have been engaged the last few
days during this sitting. I only wish to say with regard to myself,
that I do not wish to detain the Conference by any intervention in
this debate, because the case for the Government has been put by
the heads of those departments of His Majesty's Government who
are specially responsible, and, as far as I am concerned, I am entirely
in accord with the principles and sentiments which they have ex-
pressed; but my friend, and the representative of the Colonial Office
in the House of Commons, Mr. Churchill, would like to say a few
words to the Conference on one particular side of this question of
which he is specially in charge, and I ask the Conference to hear him
now.
Mr. DEAKIN: We shall all be delighted.
Mr. TVINSTON CHURCHILL: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, the
economic aspect, both from the point of view of trade and finance, of
the question of Imperial Preference has already been dealt with very
fully by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President; of the
Board of Trade, and I desire in the very few observations with which
I shall venture to trespass upon the indulgence of the Conference to
refer very little to the economic aspect, but rather to examine one
or two points about this question of a political, of a Parliamentary,
and almost of a diplomatic character. I want to consider for a
moment what would be the effect of a system of preferences upon
the course of Parliamentary business. The course of Colonial af-
fairs in the House of Commons is not always very smooth or very
simple to discover, and I am bound to say that, having for one-arid-a-
half years been responsible for the statements on behalf of this De-
partment which are made to the House of Commons, I think enor-
mous difficulties would be added to the discharge of Colonial business
in the House of Commons if we were to involve ourselves in a sj-s-
tem of reciprocal preferences. I think everyone will agree, from
whatever part of the King's dominions, or to whatever party he be-
longs, that Colonial affairs suffer very much when brought into the
arena of British party politics. Sometimes it is one party and some-
times it is another which is concerned to interfere in the course of
purely Colonial affairs, and I think such interferences arc nearly
always fraught with vexation and inconvenience to the Dominions af-
fected. Now, the system of Imperial preference inevitably brings
Colonial affairs into the Parliamentary and the party arena ; and, if
I may say so, it brings them into the most unpleasant part of Par-
liamentary and political work, that part which is concerned with
raising the taxation for each .vear. It is very easy to talk about
preference in the abstract and in general terms, and very many
pleasant things can be said about mutual profits and the good feeling
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
which accruos from commercial intercourse. But in regaird to pre-
ference, as in regard to all other tariff questions, the discussion can-
not possibly bo practical unless the propositions are examined in pre-
cise detail — in exact and substantial detail. Many people will avow
themselves in favour of the principle of preference who would recoil
when the schedule of taxes was presented to their inspection. I,
therefore, leave generalities about preference on one side. I leave
also proposals which have been discussed that we should give a prefer-
ence on existing duties. I think it is quite clear that no preference
given upon existing duties could possibly be complete or satisfactory.
It could at the very best only be a beginning, and Dr. Jameson and
Dr. Smartt when they urged us with so much force to make a be-
ginning by giving a preference on South African tobacco have clearly
recognized and frankly statcfl that preference would in itself be
of small value, but that it would be welcomed by them as conceding
the larger principle. Therefore. I think, we are entitled to say, that
before ns at this Conference is not any question of making a small
or tentative beginning on this or that particular duty, but we have
to make up our minds upon the general principle of the application
of a reciprocal preference to the trade relations of the British Em-
pire. If that be so, I am bound to say that I think that the repre-
sentatives of the self-governing Dominions who ask us to embark on
such a system ought to state bluntly and abruptly the duties which
would be necessary to give effect to siich a proposal, I thought what
Mr. Deakin said on this point was extremely correct. He said that
if the principle of preference were agreed upon between the Mother
Country and the Colonies, it would be left to each partner to that
general resolution to select the duties by which they would give effect
to the principle of preference. That is a very correct attitude, and
I am quite sure that Mr. Deakin was very glad to be able to assume
it. I know, in the House of Commons, myself, the satisfaction with
which I have been able sometimes to parry an awkward question with
a highly correct answer. The question whether raw material is to
be taxed is absolutely vital to any consideration of Imperial prefer-
ence. Although I think it is a very good answer, when the direct
question is raised, to say that the Colonies would leave that to the
Mother Country, those who urge iipon us a system of reciprocal pre-
ference are bound to face the conclusions of their own policy, and
are bound to recognise that that request, if it is to be given effect to
in any symmetrical, logical, complete, or satisfactory, or even fair
and just manner, must involve new taxes to us on seven or eight
staple articles of consumption in this country. I lay it down, with-
out hesitation, that no fair system of preference can be established
in this country which does not include taxes on bread, on meat, and
on that group of food stiiffs classified under the head of dairy pro-
duce, and which does not also include taxes on wool and leather and
on other necessaries of industry. No uniform or fair system which
did not include that could possibly be established. If that be so,
seven or eight new taxes would have to be imposed to give effect to
this principle you have brovight before us. Those taxes would have
to figure every year in our annual Budget. They would have to
figure in the Budget resolution of every successive year in the House
of Commons. There would be two opinions about each of these
taxes ; there will be those who like them and favour the principle, and
who will applaud the policy, and there will be those who dislike them.
Twelfth
Day.
7th May,
1907.
Prefereutial
Trade.
(Mr.
Churchill.)
410 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth There will be the powerful interests which will be favoured and the
7th ilsij, interests which will be hurt by their application. So you will have,
1907. as each of those taxes comes up for the year, a steady volume of
p Z ,. . Parliamentary criticism directed at the taxes. Xow that criticism
Trade. '•'^'M, I imagine, flow through every channel by which those taxes may
(Mr. be assailed. It will seek to examine the value, necessarily in a
Churchill.) canvassing spirit, of the Colonial Preferences as a return for which
these taxes are imposed. It will seek to dwell upon the hardship
to the consumers in this country of the taxes themselves. It will
stray further. I think, and it will examine the contributions which
the self-governing Dominions make to the general cost of Imperial
defence; and will contrast those contributions with a severe and an
almost harsh exactitude with the great charges borne by the Mother
Country.
Mr. DEAKIN : We have enjoyed that already for some time.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: It is perfectly true that there
has been a debate upon that subject in the House of Commons, but
the manner in which that question when raised was received by the
whole House, ought, I think, to give great satisfaction to the repre-
sentatives of the self-governing Dominions. We then refused to
embark upon a policy, of casting-up balances as between the Colonies
and the Mother Country, and. speaking on behalf of the Colonial Of-
fice, I said that the British Empire existed on the principles of a
family and not on those of a syndicate. But the introduction of
those seven or eight taxes into the Budget of every year will force
a casting-up of balances every year from a severe financial point of
view. Now, I think it has been said, and will be generally admitted,
that there is no such a thing in this country as an anti-Colonial
party. It does not exist. Even parties not reconciled to the Bri-
tish Government, who take no part in our public ceremonial, are
glad to take opportunities of showing the representatives of the self-
governing Dominions that they welcome them here, and desire to re-
ceive them with warmth and with cordiality. But I cannot conceive
any process better calculated to create an anti-Colonial party, to
manufacture an anti-Colonial than this process of subjecting to the
scrutiny of the House of Commons year by year, through the agency
of taxation, the profit and loss, so to speak, in its narrow financial
aspect, of the relations of Great Britain and her Dominions and de-
pendencies.
Then, I think, that this system of reciprocal preference, at its
verj' outset, must involve conflict with the principle of self-govern-
ment, which is at the root of all our Colonial and Imperial policy.
The whole procedure of our Parliament arises primarily from the
consideration of finance, and finance is the peg on which nearly all
our discussions are hung, and from which many of them arise. That
is the historic origin of a great portion of the House of Commons
procedure, and there is no more deeply-rooted maxim than the maxim
of " grievances before supply." Now, let me suppose a system of
preference in operation. When the taxes come up to be voted each
year, members would use those occasions for debating Colonial ques-
tions. I can imagine that they would say : We refuse to vote the
preference tax to this or that self-governing Dominion unless our
views, say, on native policy or some other question of internal im-
portance to the Dominion affected have been met and have been
accepted beforehand. At present it is open to the Colony affected
COLONIAL GOXFERENOE, 1907 411
I
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
to say: These matters are matters which concern us; they are within Twelfth
the scope of responsible self-governing functions, and you are not _ P?.?-
called upon to interfere. It is open for the Dominion concerned to jgQ^
say that. It is also open for the representative of the Colonial Office
in the House of Commons to say that, too, on their behalf. But it ^' ^rade''^'
will no longer be open, I think, for any such defence to be oflFered /jjj.
when sums of money, or what would be regarded as equivalent to Chmchill.)
sums of money, have actually to be voted in the House of Commons
through the agency of these taxes for the purpose of according pre-
ference to the diflferent Dominions of the Crown, and, I think, mem-
bers will say, "If you complain of our interference, why do you force
" us to interfere ? You have forced us to consider now whether we
"will or will not grant a preference to this or that particular Domi-
"nion for this year. We say we are not prepared to do so unless or
" until our views upon this or that particular question have been met
" and agreed to." I confess I see a fertile, frequent, and almost in-
exhaustible source of friction and vexation arising from such causes
alone.
Then I should like to say that there is a more serious infringe-
ment, as it seems to me, upon the principle of self-government. The
preferences which have hitherto been accorded to the Mother Country
by the self-governing States of the British Empire are free prefer-
ences. They are preferences which have been conceded by those
States, in their own interests and also in our interests too. They
are freely given, and, if they gall them, can as freely be withdrawn;
but the moment reciprocity is established and an agreement has
been entered into to which both sides are parties, the moment the
preference become reciprocal, and there is a British preference
against the Australian or Canadian preferences, they become not free
preferences, but what I venture to call locked preferences, and they
cannot be removed except by agreement, which is not likely to be
swiftly or easily attained.
Now, Lord Elgin, I must trench for one moment upon the eco-
nomic aspect. What does preference mean? It can only mean one
thing. It can only mean better prices. It can only mean better
prices for Colonial goods.
Dr. JAMESON : Oh, no. It will make a much larger volume of
trade, which is often better than better prices.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I assert, without reserve, that
preference can only operate through the agency of price. All that
we are told about improving and developing the cultivation of tobacco
in South Africa, and calling great new areas for wheat cultivation
into existence in Australia, depends upon the stimulation of the
production of those commodities, through securing to the producers
larger opportunities for profit. I say that unless preference means
better prices it will be ineffective in achieving the objects in favour
of which it is urged.
Dr. JAMESON : Surely if I sell 100 lbs. of tobacco at id. per lb. ,
profit I do much better than selling 5 lbs. at id. per lb. profit. Surely
that is very patent.
Mr. WINSTON CHUECHILL: But the operation of preference
consists in putting a penal tax upon foreign goods, and the object of
putting that penal tax on foreign goods is to enable the Colonial
supply to rise to the level of the foreign goods plus the tax, and by
412 COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth so conferring upon the Colonial producer a greater advantage, to
:th*MaT stimulate liim more abundantly to cater for the supply of that par-
1907. ' ticular market. I say, therefore, without hesitation, that the only
•- . manner in which a trade preference can operate is through the agenoy
"^Trade.''" °^ price. I am bound to say that if preference does not mean better
(Mr. prices it seems to me a great fraud on those who are asked to make
Churchill.) sacriiices to obtain it. It means higher prices — that is to say, higher
prices than the goods are worth if sold freely in the markets of the
world.
Dr. JAMESON: If you use the words "more profit"' instead of
"better prices,"' then that will explain the thing.
Mr. DEAKIN: Wholesale production is always cheaper than re-
tail. It would be a great advantage to our farmers if they could
simply increase their acreage at existing prices. On the whole trans-
action, without the alteration of a farthing in prices, they then
would be much better off, because they would cultivate a larger crop
more cheaply, transmit it more cheaply, and get the shipping accom-
modation more cheaply in bulk. They would get all the advantage;
of wholesale production instead of retail production.
Mr. WTlSrSTON CHURCHILL: If there is no enhancement of
price to be expected on the part of the Colonial producer, why does
not he now embark on all these developments which are promised?
' Mr. DEAKIN : Because with present supply to your open market
that might mean reducing the price below the profitable limit. We
are satisfied with the prices of the last four or five years, but if we
had produced much more we might have brought it below that satis-
factory limit, unless we had a preference. It really amounts to
what I tried to put as the wholesale and retail argument without al-
teration of price.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: There is an advantage in whole-
sale production. I am not disputing that.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: A more important point is this, it stimidates
the population of your large Colonies where you have such an enor-
mous undeveloped area of country.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: That is quite true. I am quite
ready to admit that the fact that you make a particular branch of
trade more profitable, induces more people to engage in that branch
of trade. That i< what I call stimulating Colonial production
through the agency of price. I am quite prepared to admit that a
very small tax on staple articles would affect prices in a very small
manner. Reference has been made to the imposition of a shilling
duty on corn, and I ihink it was Mr. Moor who said, yesterday, that
when the Is. duty was imposed prices fell, and when it was taken off
prices rose. That may be quite true. I do not know that it is true,
but it may be. The imposition of such a small duty as Is. on a com-
modity produced in s\ich vast abundance as wheat, might quite easily
be swamped or concealed by the operation of other more powerful
factors. A week of unusual sunshine, or a night of late frost, or a
ring in the freights, or violent speculation, might easily swamp and
cover the operation of such a small duty; but it is the opinion of
those whose economic views I share — I cannot put it higher than
that^that whatever circumstances may apparently conceal the effect
of the dut.v on prices, the •■ffe<>t is there all the •^amc. and that any
COLOyiAL COXIKKEXCF. 1U07 413
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
duty that is imposed upou a commodity becomes a factor in the price Twelfth
of that commodity. I should have thought that was an almost incon- ». PvJ'
testable proposition. 1907
Mr. DEAKIX: Most of your propositions seem incontestable to Preferential
you. but our e.xperience refutes many of them. Trade.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: In that respect, Mr. Deakin, I chir^hiu.)
enjoy the same advantage of conviction as you enjoy yourself.
Mr. BE AKIX : We do not say our opinions are incontestable.
We say they are oiien to argument and illustration by experience.
Mr. WmSTOX CHURCHILL: Here you have the two different
sides of the bargain, the sellers and the buyers, the sellers trying to
get all the.v can, and the buyers trying to give as little as they can.
An elaborate process of what is called the higgling of the market goes
on all over the world between exchanges linked up by telegraph, whose
prices vary to i^ith and a'ind. We are invited to believe that with
all that subtle process of calculation made from almost minute to
minute throughout the .vear, the imposition of a duty or demand for
1,000,000/. or 2,000,000/. for this or that Government, placed suddenly
upon the commodity in question as a tax, makes no difference what-
ever to the cost to the consumer, that it is borne either by the buyer
or by the seller, or provided in some magical manner. As a matter
of fact, the seller endeavours to transmit the burden to the purchaser,
and the purchaser places it upon the consumer as opportunity may
occur in relation to the general market situation all over the world.
That is by way of digression only to show that we believe that a tax
on a commodity is a factor in its price, which I thought was a toler-
ably simple proposition. What a dangerous thing it will be, yeav
after ,vear, to associate the idea of Empire, the idea of our brethren
beyond the seas, the idea of these great young self-governing Domin-
ions in which our people at present take so much pride, with an en-
hancement however small in the price of the necessary commodities
of the life and the industr.v of Britain I It seems to me that, quite
apart from the Parliamentary difficulty to which I have referred,
which I think would tend to organise and create anti-Colonial senti-
ment, you would, by the imposition of duties upon the necessities of
life and of industry, breed steadily year by ,vear, and accumulate at
the end of a decade a deep feeling- of sullen hatred of the Colonies,
and of Colonial affairs among those poorer people in this country to
whom Mr. Lloyd-George referred so eloquently yesterday, and whose
case when stated appeals to the sympathy of everyone round Ibis
table. That, I think, would be a great disaster.
But there is another point which occurs to me, and which I would
submit respectfully to the Conference in this connection. Great
fluctuations occur in the price of all commodities which are subject
to climatic influences. We have seen enormous fluctuations in meat
and cereals and in food stuffs generally from time to time in the
world's markets. Although we buy in the markets of the whole
world, we observe how much the price of one year varies from that
of another year. These fluctuations are due to causes beyond our
control. We cannot control the causes which make the earth refuse
her fruits at a certain season, nor can we, unfortunately, at present,
control the speculation which always arises when an unusual strin-
genc.v is discovered. Compared to these forces, the taxes which you
suggest should be imposed upon food and raw materials might, I ad-
414 COLONIAL COyPERESCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth mit, be small ; but they would be the only factor in price which would
Tth May ^^ absolutely in our control. If, from circumstances which we may
1907. ' easily imagine any of the great staple articles which were the sub-
~ ject of preference should be driven up in price to an unusual height,
' Trade. "^ there would be a demand — and I think an irresistible demand — in this
(jlr country that the tax should be removed. The tax would bear all the
Churchill.) unpopularity. People would say: "That, at any rate, we can f'
off, and relieve the burden which is pressing so heavily upon us.''
But now see the difficulty in which we should then be involved. At
present all our taxes are under our own control. An unpopular tax
can be removed; if the Government will not remove it they can be
turned out and another Government can be got from the people by
election to remove the tax. It can be done at once. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer can come down to the House and the tax can be
repealed if there is a sufficient demand for it. But these food taxes
by which you seek to bind the Empire together — these curious links of
Empire which you are asking us to forge laboriously now, would be
irremovable, and iipon them would descend the whole weight and
burden of popular anger in time of suffering. They would be irre-
movable because fixed by treaty with self-governing Dominions scat-
tered about all over the world, and in return for those duties we -
should have received concessions in Colonial tariffs on the basis of
which their industries would have grown up tier upon tier through
a long period of time. Although, no doubt, another Conference
hastily assembled might be able to break the shackle which would
fasten us, to break that fiscal bond which would join us together and
release us from the obligation, that might take a great deal of time.
Many Parliaments and Governments would have to be consulted, and
all the difficulties of distance would intervene to prevent a speedy
relief from that deadlock. If the day comes when you have a stern
demand, and an overwhelming demand of a Parliament in this coun-
try, backed by the democracy of this country suffering acutely from
high food prices, that the taxes should be removed, and on the other
hand the Minister in charge has to get \ip and say that he will bring
the matter before the next Colonial Conference two years hence, or
that he will address the representatives of the Australian or Cana-
dian Governments through the agency of the Colonial Office, and that
in the meanwhile nothing can bo done — when you have produced that
.situation, then, indeed, you will have exposed the fabric of the British
Empire to a wrench and a shock which it has never before received,
and which anyone who cares about it cannot fail to hope that it may
never sustain.
Dr. JAMESON: Would not it bo possible to mitigate this "awful
shock" by making some original reservation to provide for these awful
possibilities — these emergencies ?
Mr. F. R. MOOR: We have it already.
Dr. JAMESON : There are often reservations for emergencies in
treaty obligations.
Mr. WINSTON CHUKCIIILL: It is not a mere question of
gou<lwill on either side. When .vou begin to deflect the course of
trade you deflect it in all directions and for all time in both countries
which are parties to the bargain. Your industries in your respective
colonies would have exposed themselves to a more severe competition
froMv British goods in their niiirket*, and would have adjusted them-
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
415
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
selves on a different basis, in consequence. Some Colonial producers
would have made sacrifices in that respect for the sake of certain
advantages wliich were to be gained by other producers in their coun-
try by a favoured entry into our market. That one side of the
bargain could be suddenly removed without inflicting injustice on the
other party to the bargain appears to me an impossibility.
Those are practically all the observations with which I wish to
trouble the Conference, and I must say I am very much obliged to
memiiers of the Conference for the patience with which they have
heard the.se views.
I submit that preferences, even if economically desirable, would
prove an element of strain and discord in the structure and system
of the British Empire. Why, even in this Conference, what has
been the one subject on which we have differed sharply? It has
been this question of preference. It has been the one apple of dis-
cord which has been thrown into the arena of our discussions. It is
quite true we meet here with a great fund of goodwill on everybody's
part, on the part of the Mother Country and on the jiart of the repre-
sentatives of the self-governing Dominions — a great fund of goodwill
which has been accumulated over a long period of time when each
party to this great confederation has been free to pursue its own line
of development unchecked and untrammelled by interference from the
other. We have that to start upon, and consequently have been able
to discuss in a frank and friendlv manner all sorts of questions. We
have witnessed the spectacle of the British Minister in charge of the
trade of this country defending at length and in detail the fiscal sys-
tem— the purely domestic, internal fiscal system of this country from
very severe, though perfectly friendl.v and courteous criticism on the
part of the other self-governing communities. If that fund of good-
will to which I have referred had been lacking, if ever a Conference
had been called together when there was an actual anti-colonial party
in existence, when there was really a deep hatred in the minds of a
large portion of the people of the country against the Colonies, then
I think it is quite possible that a Conference such as this would not
pass off in the smooth and friendly manner in which this has passed
off. You would hear recrimination and reproaches exchanged across
the table; you would hear assertions made that the representatives
of the different States who were parties to the Conference were nol
really representatives of the true opinion of their respective popula-
tions, that the trend of opinion in the country which they profess
to represent was opposed to their policy and would shortl.v effect a
change in the views which they put forward. You would find all these
undemocratic assertions that representatives duly elected do not really
speak in the name of their people, and you would, of course, find ap-
peals made over the heads of the respective Governments to the party
organisations which supported them or opposed them in the respective
countries from which they came. That appears to me to open up
possibilities of very grave and serious dangers in the structure and
fabric of the British Empire from which I think we ought to labour
to shield it. My Eight Honourable friend, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, has told the Conference with perfect truth — in fact it may
have been even an under-estimation — that if he were to propose the
principle of preference in the present House of Commons it would be
rejected by a majority of three to one. But even if the present Gov-
ernment could command a majority upon the subject, they would
Twelftli
Day.
7th May,
1907.
I'refereutial
Trade.
(Mr.
Churchill.)
416
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Twelfth
Dav.
7th Sfav,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Churchill.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
have no intention whatever of proposing- it. It is not because we are
not ready to run electoral risks that we decline to be parties to a
system of preference ; still less it is because the present Government
is unwilling to make sacrifices, in money or otherwise, in order to
weave the Empire more closely together. I think a very hopeful de-
flection has been given to our discussion when it is suggested that
we may find a more convenient line of advance by improving com-
munications, rather than by erecting tarifPs — by making roads, as it
were, across the Empire, rather than by building walls. It is because
we believe the principle of preference is positively injurious to the
British Empire, and would create, not union, but discord, that we have
resisted the proposal. It has been a source of regret, I think, that on
this subject we cannot come to an agreement. A fundamental dif-
ference of opinion on economics, no doubt, makes agreement impossi-
ble; bvit although we regret that, I do not doubt that in the future.
when Imperial unification has been carried to a stage which it has not
now reached, and will not, perhaps, in our time attain, people in that
more fortimate age will look back to the Conference of 1907 as a date
in the history of the British Empire when one grand wrong turn was
successfully avoided.
.Sir WILFKID LAUEIER: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I think
we have spent nearly a week over this subject, and perhaps the time
has come now when we may reach a conclusion upon it. At the open-
ing of this debate I stated that, for my part. I intended at the proper
time to move again the resolution which was affirmed by the Con-
ference of 1902. I have listened with very great interest, as everybody
has, and very great attention also, to everything that has been said,
and I see no reason at present to change the opinion which I formed
then.
Mr. Deakin, in the course of the very able presentment which he
made of the case as he conceived it on the part of the Dominions
beyond the Seas, referred us to the case of the German Zollverein.
Sir William Lyne, who followed, took the same line also. It is cer-
tainly a case in point, and the only regret I have, for my part, is that
I cannot see my way to accept the policy of such a Zollverein as was
adopted in Germany towards the .year 1830, if I remember right. Nor
do I see that any of the Dominions which are here represented could
be in a position to accept that principle. In case of the German
people, commercial unity preceded political >mity. With us, political
unity exists. We are all subjects of the same Sovereign. The ques-
tion before us is whether or not commercial unity can also follow.
The German peoples when the Zollverein was first introduced, were, if
I may use the expression, a mob of principalities. There was quite
a number, some 30 or more dependencies of all sizes, some big and
some small, and each one had its own Sovereign, with conunon lan-
guage, common institutions, and practically the same economic condi-
tions. But they all had tariffs one against the other. There was a
customs house at every few miles. When the Zollverein was adopted
all this was done away with, and they adopted a common commercial
union. They abolished the custom houses, established among them-
selves a s.vstem of Free Trade, ami established a customs cordon
Mnmnd their own countr.v. If it were possible for us to have a system
of Free Trade over the whole British Empire, and a customs cordon
aroun<l the British Empire, for my part I would accept this as the
■ver.v ideal of what the British Empire ought to be. T have expressed
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 417
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the opinion more than once, and I will express it again. The Ameri- Twelfth
cans have a system of Free Trade amongst themselves covering 45 -th Ifa
States now with a population of over 80,000,000 people. The Ger- 1907.
mans have a system of Free Trade among themselves covering nearly ~ .
60,000,000 people. The French have a system of Free Trade among Trade.*'^^
themselves of some 40,000,000 people. If it were possible to have a (Sir Wilfrid
system of Free Trade covering the whole British Empire with its Laurier.)
population of something about 400,000,000, it would undoubtedly be
one of the greatest benefits that could be given to the British Empire,
and, perhaps, to the world. Unfortunately this cannot be done, and
for two reasons. First, the British people, as I understand at present
their political opinion, are not prepared to limit their system of Free
Trade even to the extent of the boundaries of the Empire. The other
reason is, that the self-governing dependencies which are here repre-
sented are not prepared to extend the system of Free Trade to the
limits of the BritisH Empire, nor even to the extent of their own
boundaries. These factors are here before us, and we must accept
them as they are.
Mr. DEAKIN : Is not the fact that the British Government raises
so large a proportion of its revenues by Customs duties, as do also
the several Dominions, a very serious consideration?
Sir WILFRED LATJEIER: No. The British Government at the
present time do not raise their revenue from Customs, except upon
those articles which are luxuries and a fit subject of taxation — spirits,
tobacco, wine to a certain extent — but I think wine can be discarded
out of the discussion. A large extent of the revenues raised by Cus-
toms by the British Parliament is also the subject of Excise duties.
It is strictly a subject held by all civilized nations at the present time,
as being eminently a source of revenue, and which should be treated
for revenue purposes. We do this in Canada also. We submit spirits
and tobacco not only to Customs but to Excise duties, and in our pre-
ference we have eliminated those articles from the preference. We
do not give any preference upon British tobacco or upon British
spirits.
1 w.as at a point when I said that the Dependencies wliich are here
represented are not in a position to accept this system of universal
Free Trade within the Empire. I speak for Canada, and I think I
speak for Australia, though Mr. Deakih, Sir Joseph Ward, and all
others present, will be able to speak for themselves. In Canada, at
present, we have only two sources of revenue, customs and excise —
no other. We have no income tax and no direct taxation of any
kind. Though I hold as the ideal policy, a policy of Free Trade
within the Empire, even if at this moment the British Government
were to tell us : /'Yes, we are prepared to give you a preference ; that
"is to say, we are prepared to give Free Trade all over the Empire,"
I would not be prepared, for my part, to accept it. If we had Free
Trade within the Empire we would have thereby the preference which
we all seek for. Our goods would come free, the goods from other
countries would become subject to taxation or duty, if I may use the
term which Mr. Deakin prefers, and therefore we should have free-
dom from taxation in the British market. But if the British Gov-
ernment were to tell us in Canada: "We are prepared to adopt Free
"Trade if you are prepared to adopt Free Trade, and that will give
"you the preference you seek," I should have to say for Canada that
we are not prepared to do that because we must insist upon our sys-
58—27
418 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth tern of customs duties in order to raise our revenue. If we were to
7th Itf.iy, S" ^^'^ ^^^ ^^^ Canadian Parliament or people to abandon their pre-
1P07. sent customs' duties for revenue purposes, the whole of the Canadian
p Z .. , people would say: "No, we are not prepared to do that. We must
Trade. insist upon our present system." What is true of Canada, I think,
(Sir Wilfrid is also true of Australia; I think is also true of New Zealand; I
Lanrier.) think is also true of Newfoundland, and also of the Cape, Natal, the
Transvaal, and of every Dependency which is here represented. There
is the situation. We knew it in 1897, when we adopted the system
of preference which we have given to Great Britain. Why did we
do it? We did it because we were intensely convinced in the coun-
try which I represent that a great advantage would accrue from pre-
ferential trade within the Empire. We could not do it in any other
way. We gave our preference to the British products in our country.
We did it deliberately, and have had no cause to regret it since. So
little cause have we had to regret it that, whereas in the first instance
the preference was only 15 per cent., one or two years later we in-
creased it to 25 per cent., and again, have increased it since to 33J i)er
cent. We have revised the tariff during the present Session, or the
last Session, which closed a few days ago, and we have maintained
our preference of 33J per cent, with one or two exceptions only on
limited articles. We have in some cases increased it, and in some
cases decreased it ; but, on the whole, we have maintained the 33 J per
cent. This has been adopted without any serious challenge even on
the part of the Opposition. Then why have we done it ? We did it
because we believe in the system of preferential trade, and believe,
and now know that, by adopting this system, we would improve our
trade, that is to say, we believed that the British people would buy
more from us and we would sell more to them, and that has certainly
been the result of it.
Mr. Asquith in the course of the remarks which he offered the
other day I think did not give the Canadian preference the whole of
the benefit to which it was entitled. Discussing our tariff, as it has
existed for the last 10 years, he remarked that the incidence of pro-
tection so far as regards British trade and American trade was 13
per cent, with regard to British trade, and 19 per cent, with regard to
American trade. I do not dispute those figures, but those figures
are not exactly leading to a proper appreciation of the policy which
we have elaborated. We have done everything that we could — that
has been our policy — to throw the whole of our trade towards Great
Britain. We are side by side with a nation — one of the wealthiest
and most enterprising nations on earth to-day — the American j)eople.
They are of the Anglo-Saxon race, the great commercial race of the
world, and if anything they arc perhaps more enterprising than their
progenitors, and put in perhaps more energy and activity to push
their trade than any other nation that I know of. Therefore it is not
surprising that in the case of Canada, with a population now of 6,000,-
000, by the side of a population of 80,000,000 of such enterprising
business men as are the Americans, our trade with them should be
larger than our trade with Great Britain. First of all they are
double in number, being 80.000,000— while you are only 40.000,000.
Apart from that they are neighbours. There is no boundary line
except a purely conventional one over the whole territory. Their
habits are the same as ours, and therofore we arc induced to trade
and cannot help it by the force of nature. But so far as legislation
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 419
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
can influence trade we have done everything possible to push our tradi^ Twelfth
towards the British people as against the American people. Day.
7th May,
Mr. ASQUITH: May I say I did not in the least dispute that? 1907.
My object was not, as I think I made clear, in any sense to complain Preferential
of the Canadian preference; on the contrary, I recognise both it-i Trade.
intention and its effect. My point was that natural conditions were 'Sir Wilfrid
such that it was inevitable that the Americans should get the best I'a°'"ier.)
of it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Exactly. I do not dispute your in-
tention, or the fact that you wanted to give us the fuU benefit; but
I do not think with all your goodwill you reached the point that we
have helped British trade in a very considerable degree. In 1897,
when we introduced preference to British trade, the British importa-
tions into Canada had fallen to 29,000,000?. Now they have reached
the figure of 69,000,000/., a very considerable increase. Of this
there are 16,000,000?. upon the free list. We have a very large free
list which covers all possible raw materials — everything of the kind.
You in Britain are not in the position of selling much of what is on
the free list — only 16,000,000/. — whereas our imports from the United
States of free goods runs nearly to 80,000,000/.
Now as to the dutiable goods, you have increased those goods to
the figure of 52,000,000/., that is to say upon 52,000,000/. of importa-
tions from Great Britain into Canada, we give you a preference of
33J per cent., which is certainly a valuable contribution on our part
to British trade. Not only have we done it by preference, by legisla-
tion, but we have forced our trade against the laws of natfire and
geography. If we were to follow the laws of nature and geography
between Canada and the United States, the whole trade would flow
from south to north, and from north to south. We have done every-
thing possible by building canals and subsidising railways to bring
the trade from west to east and east to west so as to bring trade into
British channels. All this we have done recognising the principle of
the great advantage of forcing trade within the British Empire. This
principle we recognise. We are bound to say that though the prefer-
ence which we have given has not done as much, perhaps, for British
trade as the British merchant or manufacturer would like, we have
told the British people at the same time that there is a way of doing
more. There is the preference of mutual trade, and this is what we
had in view when we adopted in 1902 the resolution of that year.
Let me read out to the Conference the resolution of 1902. The
first part is in these terms : "That this Conference recognises that the
"principle of preferential trade between the United Kingdom and His
"Majesty's Dominions beyond the Seas would stimulate and facilitate
" mutual commercial intercourse, and would, by promoting the de-
" velopment of the resources and industries of the several points,
" strengthen the Empire. " I think we all can agree with that ; but
there is a qualification in the next statement : " That this Conference
" recognises that, in the present circumstances of the Colonies, it is
" not practicable to adopt a general system of Free Trade as between
" the Mother Country and the British Dominions beyond the Seas."
We acknowledged, at that time, it was not possible for the Conference
to do more than that up to that time — that it was not possible to
adopt a system of universal Free Trade amongst us. Then we assert :
" That with a view, however, to promoting the increase of trade with-
" in the Empire, it is desirable that those Colonies which have not
58— 27J
420 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth " adopted such a policy should, as far as their circumstances permit,
7t 1 llay " ^'^® substantial preferential treatment to the products and manu-
1907. ' " factures of the United Kingdom." Upon the principles which are
PreferentiaJ ^®'® enimciated in these three resolutions I think all those assembled
Trade. from the Dependencies beyond the Seas are unanimous in agreeing.
(Sir Wilfrid The next resolution is in these words : " That the Prime Ministers
Lanrier.) "of the Colonies respectfully urge on His Majesty's Government the
"expediency of granting in the United Kingdom preferential treat-
" ment to the products and manufactures of the Colonies, either by
" exemption from, or reduction of, duties now or hereafter imposed."
My friend, Mr. Deakin, speaking on behaK of Australia, has pro-
posed to go one step beyond this and to adopt this resolution : " That
" it is desirable that the United Kingdom grant preferential treat-
" ment to the products and manufactures of the Colonies."
Perhaps, on consideration, Mr. Deakin would agree with us, that
it would be preferable not to enforce this, but to keep to the resolu-
tion of 1902. We are alli-agreed at this table — those who come from
the Dependencies beyond the Seas — that we have no desire and no
intention of forcing a policy which we believe in, upon the British
people, if they are not prepared to receive it. I have stated a mo-
ment ago that a statement had been made — we heard it in 1902, and
we hear it again in 1907 — that the Canadian preference has not done
as much for British trade as had been hoped for. I repeat, there
is a way of doing ii? It is by adopting a mutual system of prefer-
ence. But again, I suppose the British Government represented
here may say : " No, we are not prepared to do that. We might im-
" prove our trade with our self-governing Dependencies ; but, whilst
" we might do this, we would disturb the whole system of trade and
" would lose perhaps more than we would gain otherwise by disturb-
" ing the whole system of trade that we have in this country." This
is a question which is not for us. I am prepared to discuss it at this
moment or give it a passing word. This is a matter which is alto-
gether in the hands of the British people, and they have to choose
between one thing and the other; and if they think on the whole
that their interests are better served by adhering to their present
system than by yielding ever so little, it is a matter for the British
electorate. First of all, I expressed my own views, and I think I ex-
pressed the views of all here assembled, that nothing could be more
detrimental to the existence of the British Empire than to force
\ipon any part of it, even for the general good, a system which would
be detrimental locally, or might be believed to be detrimental locally.
For my part, ,T would have no hesitation at all in resenting any at-
tempt to force upon the Canadian people anything which the Cana-
dian people would not believe in even for the broad idea of doing
good to the whole Empire. I think the best way of serving the
whole is, by allowing every part to serve and recognise its own im-
mediate interests. So far as. and as long as, the interests of the
British Empire depend upon this and recognise this principle — that
ever>-one of those communities which are allowed the privilege of
administering their own affairs by their own parliaments — the best
way is to leave to each parliament to decide for itself, and for the
people whom it represents what is best for that community. That
is a principh upon which we ought to be agreed. It is a question
for his Majesty's Government. It is a question for the political par-
ties of our respective communities — to determine whether it is bet-
ter in the interests of the United Kingdom that they should con-
COLONIAL COyFERENOE, 1307 421
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tinue this system which they have at present or that they should Twelfth
go as far as, for my part, I would like them to go. Therefore, I have _ Day.
no more to say upon this point. For this reason, I say it is better ' 1907''^'
to agree to stand by the Eesolution of 1902, as it was. I am free to say
that at that time when we passed this resolution, we were induced P''?J«''e°tial
to pass it to some extent — I will not say immediately, but (gjr vVilfrid
certainly influenced in our determination — by the fact that Laurier.)
at that time certain duties had been put upon cereals
in n moment of urgency during the war, and we thought
at that time that it would be good policy to give a
preference upon these. But the British Parliament thought differ-
ently, and removed the duties instead of giving us a preference. They
thought they owed it to their people not only not to give a preference
upon that, but to remove altogether that which they conceived did not
perhaps at the time but might have put a burden upon the great mass
of the consuming people of the country. For my part, I enter upon no
discussion upon the moot point whether the imposition of a duty
would or would not increase the price of bread. This is a matter
which in some instances might do it, and in others perhaps might not
do it. This is a matter which would be altogether regulated by cir-
cumstances, and I pass it over to those who have to deal with this
question within the United Kingdom.
Having said that much, I come now to the next resolution:
" That the Prime Ministers present at the Conference undertake to
" submit to their respective Governments at the earliest opportunity
" the principle of the resolution, and to request them to take such
" measures as may ue necessary to give effect to it." It may be, per-
haps, not out of place to say a word as to what has been done with
regard to giving effect to this resolution. The third resolution stated
this : " That with a view, however, to promoting the increase of
" trade within the Empire, it is desirable that those Colonies which
" have not already adopted such a policy, should, as far as their
'' circumstances permit, give substantial preferential treatment to
" the products and manufactures of the United Kingdom." What
has been done since 1902, during the five years which have inter-
vened, to give effect to this resolution? It is a point which perhaps
may be considered here. Canada has done everything which it could
do in this respect. Before that time we had adopted the system of
preferential trade, and we have maintained it unimpaired. I under-
stand that the South ' African Dependencies here represented, have
also by their system of a commercial union amongst themselves,
given a preference to the British products in their own markets.
They have given it in the line that Canada has given it, that is to
say, covering everything. Now Australia has done something. In
1906, Australia introduced a system of preference. I remark this,
that it was not until four years after the Conference of 1902 that
Australia did this. Why? Probably because there were difficulties
to adjust in Australia.
Mr. DEAKIX : We were then organising our wtiole Common- ,
wealth Government.
Sir WILFRID LAUEIER: You did it as soon as you could.
Then according to the figures which were put on the table the other
day by Mr. Asquith the preference was not a universal preference,
such as we give in Canada for everything, but simply for 8 per cent,
of the importations into Australia from Great Britain.
iS2 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth Mr. ASQUITH" It was what Mr. Deakin called a fore-runner.
Day.
7th May, Sir WTLFEID LAURIER: That is to say the preference has been
given on some articles and not upon others. In Canada we did it
Preferential differently; we give a preference upon everything except those articles
Trade. which are subject to excise duty. Naw Zealand, as I understand,
(Sir Wilfi ul jjgg giyen a preference also, not exactlv universal like ours, but cover-
ing, as Mr. Asquith stated, 20 per cent, of the British importations.
Why was this? Why was not a universal preference given? The
economic conditions in Great Britain are not the same as in the
different Dependencies beyond the Seas, which are all young nations,
and even their conditions are not all alike. They differ in Canada
from what they are in Australia, they differ in Australia from what
they are in South Africa. That is to say, we are young nations with
different local interests in every particular community. In Great
Britain the conditions are these, that you have an old settled com-
mimity, the wealthiest in the world, largely developed, having nothing
new to do, but only to press on with what is being done; whereas in
our communities we have everything to create; we have manufactures
which are new and in a different condition of development. We
feel strong enough in Canada to give a preference upon all our
manufactured products, and if I understand the theory rightly of
the preferential treatment adopted in Australia, and also in New
Zealand, they do not feel strong enough to give a preference even on
the lines of their own manufactures. I think that is the reason why
New Zealand and Australia do not give to the Motherland the whole
preference which we give in Canada. I make these observations just
to show that it is essential to leave to each community the extent and
measure of the preference which it wants to give.
Mr. Deakin has introduced another resolution, and one to which,
I, for my part, would subscribe with both hands, and I would like,
with some modification to make it the subject of a special resolution,
and not an amendment to the 1902 resolution. It is this : " That
" it is desirable that the preferential treatment accorded by the Colo-
" nies to the products and manufactures of the United Kingdom be
" also granted to the products and manufactures of other self-govem-
" ing Colonies."' I should subscribe with both hands to this, and
on behalf of the Government I represent here, and the people of
Canada, I would be prepared to enter into an absolute arrangement.
Any preference which we give to the Motherland we will give you,
expecting that any preference you give to the Motherland you will
also give us, and with Sir Joseph Ward's Government and the other
Governments we will do the same. That is, so far as it goes, an ex-
cellent principle. The communities which you and I represent here
have no free trade tariffs. We all levy our tariffs in the same way,
by Customs duties, and therefore it is easy for us to extend to all
parts of the Dominion of the British Empire, here represented, the
treatment which we give to the Motherland. Speaking on behalf
of Canada we have offered it to Australia, and are prepared to offer
it to New Zealand and to the others here repre-sented.
I am coming to a point which was made the other day by Dr.
Jameson with regard to our intermediate tariff. We have revised
our tariff this year and have adopted a new principle. We had a
two-column principle — a tariff for general purposes and a preferential
tariff. Between the preferential tariff and the general tariff we
have now an intermediate tariff. The object of this intermediate
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907 423
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tariff is to enter into negotiations with other communities to have Twelfth
trade arrangements with them. It has been supposed that this was -x^\?'
to hit our American neighbors. With our American neighbors we 1907.*^'
should be only too glad to trade on a better footing than at the pre-
sent time. We are next door neighbours, and in many things we Xrade****
can be their best market, as in many things they can be our best -gj^. ^jj^^j^
market. We should be glad to trade with them; but it never was Laurier.)
intended, nor thought at the time, that this intermediate tariff could
apply to the United States. There was at one time wanted reci-
procity with them, but our efforts and our offers were negatived and
put aside, and we have said good-bye to that trade, and we have put
all our hopes upon the British trade now. But there are other na-
tions— France is one and Italy another, with which we could have
better trade than at the present time. France has a minimum tariff
and we are prepared to exchange our intermediate tariff, if they
will exchange their minimum tariff with us. But while giving this
intermediate preference, we maintain the system of a lower tariff to
the Mother Country, and to all our fellow British subjects all over
the world. Dr. Jameson made the point that if we were to enter
into such an agreement with foreign nations, we would debar the
possibility of giving a preference to the Mother Country. Nothing
of the kind. Our tariff is not so constructed, and cannot be so held.
If we were to make an agreement with France, which I doubt whe-
ther we could, France would understand the position; she would take
our intermediate tariff knowing at the same time there was a lower
differential tariff under all circumstances for the . Mother Country
and the British Dominions.
Mr. F. E. MOOR: I am sorry to interrupt, but I would like the
Premier of Canada to assure us on this point. By that amount
which you reduce it to any other foreign power, you reduce your
preference with the Home Land.
Mr. DEAKIN : And with us.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIER: I do not admit that we would re-
duce it, it would remain as it is; but the man who trades with us in
Great Britain knows that he may have a competitor not upon the
same lines, but upon reduced lines from our general tariff.
Mr. ASQUITH: He may have a competitor on the line of the
intermediate tariff, if, for instance, you came to an .irrangement with
France.
Sir WILFEID LAUEIER: That is to say, instead of having a
margin of 33 J per cent, he may have a margin of only 25 per cent.
It makes that difference, no doubt.
Mr. ASQUITH: But it cannot alter the quantum of preference.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: No, it cannot alter the quantum of
preference.
Dr. SMARTT : Your tariff is now 33§ per cent. If you intro-
duce an intermediate tariff, the preference in favour of Great Britain
or the other British Colonies that might reciprocate with you would
not be 33i, but would be reduced.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It could be reduced by 3 and 4, but
never more than 5 per cent. ; that is to say, instead of having a pre-
ference in our market of 33J, he would have a preference with regard
to that nation say of 28 per cent. That would be the limit.
42A COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth Having said that much, there is a point I wish to make here. I
7th May thought of bringing it before the Conference by way of resolution,
1907. ' ' but as it is a question which affects Canada and Canada alone, I
" . wiU not do so, because the other members of the Conference are not
Trade. interested in it. I stated a moment ago that we do not desire in
(Sir Wilfrid ^^y way to interfere with the opinion of the British people so far
Laurier.) as their fiscal policy is concerned; but, while I say this, and in view
of having the best relations possible maintained between the Mother-
land and the Dominions beyond the Seas, there is one thing, however,
which I think we are entitled to, and that is, that we should be treat-
ed with absolute fairness. Now we have a grievance, and, I think,
a well-founded grievance, in Canada, with regard to the question of
the cattle embargo. For more than 20 years the British Government
have practically excluded our live cattle from their market on the
ground that they were tainted with disease. We resent this in Ca-
nada— I use the word " resent " in the hope that it is not too strong —
as being unfair, because the assertion is unfounded. Our cattle are
absolutely free from disease. Now our exporters of cattle are com-
pelled as soon as the cattle are landed in the port, say, of Liverpool,
to have them slaughtered immediately on the pretence that they may
spread disease and that they may taint the British cattle. As a
matter of fact, everybody knows at the present time we are free
from cattle disease. Therefore, day by day, week after week, cattle
come in and are slaughtered immediately, and the fact that they are
bound to be slaughtered immediately obliges the exporter to take a
lesser price for them because of the necessity to find a market on
arrival. If the thing were based upon fact, .1 coiild have no word
of complaint to make, but when as a matter of fact the Canadian
cattle ought not to be excluded on that ground, we think that it is a
great injustice to us, and one which we have serious reason to com-
plain of. If it were maintained as a ground of policy; if you were
to say " We do not want the Canadian cattle to come in in competi-
tion with British cattle in the market," that would be quite another
matter. That would be a question of policy for the British Govern-
ment to which we would have nothing to say. But so long as they
maintain the position that our cattle are excluded for the reason of
the health of the British cattle, it is a position which we resent, and
which I bring to the serious attention of the British authorities.
We complain that it is unfair to lis, that it is not only an injustice,
but a slander upon our position. We have a system of quarantine
in Canada which is maintained at a very great cost in a state of
efficienc.v, and we maintain that our cattle are just as free from dis-
ease ns British cattle are to-day. In order to maintain the good re-
lations, now happily woldod botwoon tho British Empire and Canada
and all parts of the Empire — but, I am speaking now of a question
which concerns only Canada — I bring this matter to the serious at-
tention of His ^Majesty's Government. It is a thing which ought not
to bo allowed. It is a slander upon our good name. It is a thing
which rankles in our breast because we know it is not fair, and I
go further and .1 say that it is maintained not upon questions of
sanitary precautions but ulterior motives which n Free Trade Gov-
ernment should not allow and uphold.
As T said in opening, I beg to move that the resolutions nf 1902
be reafiSrmed.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 425
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
Mr. ASQUITH : Perhaps I may just say in reference to what Sir Twelfth
Wilfrid Laurier said at the end of his speech, that, as regards the -fi?^'
Canadian cattle, I know this to be a very serious matter. I am 1907.
speaking only for myseK and not in the least for the Government .
when I say that in my character of a Member of Parliament, not as a "^xrade
Minister, I have over and over again urged the argument which Sir (gij. Wilfrid
Wilfrid Laurier has been urging now, in the same direction and with Laurier.)
the same object, concerning Canadian cattle. That was in my pri-
vate capacity, when I was not in a position of responsibility. As he
has indicated, there are a number of conflicting views and conflicting
interests here, and I will undertake to bring everything he said to
the attention of my Right Honourable friend, the President of the
Board of Agriculture, and J will assure him of its importance.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We fought it very hard when we were
in Opposition.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Fight it hard, then, now you are in
the Government.
Mr. Li^UiD GEORGE: It shows the difficulty of upsetting a
thing when once it is established.
Mr. ASQUITH: It is a very serious question. We do not at all
minimise the gravity of it.
Sir W.ILFRID LAURIER: It is serious; and the discontent
will grow in intensity in Canada.
Mr. DEAKIN : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, there is a House of
Commons' paper which appears in the " Times " of this morning
relating to Imperial trade — No. 133^which appears to be pertinent
to the subjects before us. Perhaps it might be included in our Pro-
ceedings. It shows the values of the trade of the United Kingdom,
Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and British South Africa, in
1906.
Mr. ASQUITH: It was moved for by your friend, Mr. Harold
Cox.
Mr. DEAKIN : The mover is immaterial, but the facts are of some
interest, and they might as well be added.
Mr. ASQUITH: Put it on the Minutes, certainly.*
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, it shows the rather curious circumstance
that Australia must be an importer to the Mother Country of an
exceptional amount of dutiable goods, or, as you would call them,
taxable goods. Practically, Canada imports the same as we do. They
send 28,000,000?. to our 29,000,000L
Mr. ASQUITH : Yours is wine and rum.
Mr. DEAKIN : Canada pays in duty 15,000?., and we pay in duty
106,000?., as against South Africa, 16,000Z. So that ours is an excep-
tional position, which ,1 do not think is quite realised.
Mr. ASQUITH: The wine and the rum accounts for it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER^ How is it explained?
Mr. DEAKIN: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has given the
explanation that our wines and spirits — rum particularly — are highly
dutiable articles. Nevertheless, it bringa out some differences in
trade which are rather interesting.
*For this return see page 449.
COLONIAL COXFEREKCE, 1907
Twelfth
Day.
7th Mav,
1907."
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
It seemed to me- that it would be undesirable that the very strik-
ing address of your colleague, the Under Secretary of State, should
pass without notice from our point of view, both because it merited
i-riticism in itself, and because it oSers so much temptation. May
I be permitted to say, first, that among the subjects upon which we
hesitate to enter are discussions of the methods of business, in the
House of Commons, of which, I am sure, Mr. Churchill is a master.
It strikes me, as an outer barbarian, that it is rather extraordinary
even to suggest that the business of the Empire and its transactions,
instead of being dealt with on their merits, and sought for their ad-
vantages, are to be limited in order that they may not clash with the
procedure maintained in the Mother of Parliaments. As I have
said, what that procedure may lack is not for us to discuss; but one
would suppose that the efforts of members of that most distinguished
of all Parliaments would tend to shape their means of handling
their business so as to meet the demands of the Empire. Surely it
ought not to be considered an impediment of a serious character that,
owing to the way in which budgets may be dealt with in the House
of Commons, the introduction of any further financial issues is to be
prohibited because they might involve delay and possible friction. I
merely mention this to suggest that the remedy ought to be applied to
the procedure, and not to the business of the country.
Passing from that, may I say that a similar argument was pushed
even further in the direction of what appears to me, with all respect,
an artificial plea, that no preference is possible unless it is complete,
uniform and scientifically perfect. All I can say is that I have
never yet seen a tariff, and never expect to ; that I hare never yet seen
a budget, and never expect to, in any country of the world, which
fulfils those conditions. Of course the ideal is one towards which
it is desirable to direct attention. Assuredly the method we pursue
in Australia, with which I do not profess to be enamoured, is open
to very serious comment if that high standard be maintained. We
have a tariff which is very defective, and is about to be revised this
year, which will continue defective after its revision, and will never
be absolutely uniform, or by any means complete. It will be simply
the best rule-of-thumb arrangement we can devise. We have a
parallel and related bounty system, which I cite in this connection
because it may be perhaps more properly contrasted with our pro-
posals for preferential trade. Our bounty system at the present
time is merely a rudimentary tentative proposal, covering perhaps
some dozen particular interests which the Parliament of the Com-
monwealth believes it to be profitable to foster. The treatment we
are proposing of the cultures to be encouraged is not, and cannot be,
made uniform, and is not, and cannot be, made complete. I am not
arguing against completeness or against uniformity. We all realise
that those are ends to be kept in view, but if we are to delay action
until those are achieved we should wait for ever in each and all of
our business enterprises. In mattei-s of trade, speaking for our-
selves, with our limitations of knowledge, we have no great faith in
abstract or even in concrete doctrines, because the fluctuations of
commerce are continuous, and our knowledge of them varies so much
from date to date. There are hundreds of different factors, to which
Mr. Churchill himself graphically alluded, that come into play irregu-
larly or unexpectedly, and we recognise that these require to be met
by fresh adaptations from time to time. Then, if I may be par-
COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 427
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
doned for saying so, it did appear to me to be somewhat inconsistent, Twelfth
that Mr. Churchill's argument against preference was based first of -j-jP^'
all upon an assumption that the duties, or taxes as he prefers to call 1907.
them, which may be imposed are to come up for review, and are to
be the subject of criticism every year. Yet a later period of his xrade
address he referred to any reciprocity arrived at as being embodied /^p
in a treaty. This, I should have thought the only practicable Deakin.)
means of dealing with this subject. I cannot imagine a reciprocity
which would be shifting on one side or the other or on both year by
year, and which would thus come up for yearly re-discussion.
Mr. WINSTON CHTJECHILL: It is not only a question of
Parliamentary procedure. The procedure in Parliament embodies
the rights which the Conur;ons of England have won over a thousand
years of constitutional struggles, and they are rights which can be
asserted, and there is no right more fundamental or more jealously
.held than the right of criticism of taxation, and I cannot believe
that that right would ever be parted from by the House of Commons
in whole or in part. That was my point.
Mr. DEAKIN: That was one of the points, but if any reciprocity
is to be arranged at all, it must be arranged by a treaty, for three or
five years, as both parties might agree. The assent of the British
Parliament once given to such an arrangement it certainly could not
come under direct review in an effective way until the expiration
of that period whatever it was.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: It would be subject to criticism,
but it would be irremovable.
Mr. DEAKIN : Anything is subject to criticism ; but it would
not be terminable except by mutual consent or at a definite period,
and certainly it would not encourage criticism more than the Budget,
as a whole, does. There would be a tendency to pull the new plant
up by the roots to see if it was growing, but that occurs in regard to
the thousand-and-one or rather the ten thousand and many different
things affected by or affecting the finances of the country. Criticism
we must always have, and I am sure the Under Secretary of State
would not be associated with any proposal to limit that criticis'm. His
argument that these proposals, because they are financial, invite
criticism, applies to the whole scale of the operations of the Empire.
While this Empire continues to grow its figures and finances will
continue to grow. That gives a greater field for criticism or review,
but I do not suppose anybody wishes to check the growth of the Em-
pire in order to avoid that criticism. Consequently, that mutual
arrangements for mutual benefit are to be deprecated, because they
afford temptation to critics and possible friction, is to apply an argu-
ment which no one wiU attempt to push to its logical conclusion. It
is a fair debating point to make — but I must relinquish comments
of a personal character, as Mr. Churchill has had to leave — that it
suggests the indulgence of a riotous imagination when we find the
Under Secretary pointing to the natural, the ordinary, the inevitable
proceedings in every Legislature as grounds for rejecting a new de-
velopment of policy, because it must involve a clashing of interests,
and the annual review of its incidence by Parliament. Is our party
system to destroy everything except itself? Are we to put aside
great projects because they are debatable, or close the Empire to
■avoid friction in the House of Commons? We cannot move without
428 COLONIAL COyFEEENGE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth friction, nor live without differences of opinion. We cannot ad-
7th May vanoe without the clash of opposing interests. Every development
1907. of self-government, and every growth of our industrial life, and every
p ~ ■ . . extension of the powers of the State, invite criticism and require it.
Trade. Free criticism is the breath of our constitution. To shrink from
(Mr. great tasks or newer enterprises because of the greater burden they
Deakin.) impose upon representatives, and representative institutions, means
simply shrinking from growth, and the responsibilities of growth. If
we wish one we must take the others. It is impossible for us to
become more closely united, indeed, it is impossible for us to develop
our own local self-governments in any direction without running
more of those very risks which Mr. Churchill has painted with great
eloquence and with much force, but as it appears to me, with a
momentary oversight, of the fact that he is really condemning our
whole system of Government and its adaptability to modern needs.
He is criticising, by implication unfavourably, that Parliamentary
system which he is ostensibly at the same moment enthusiastically
upholding or intending to uphold.
His argument is also fatal to all possibilities of commercial rela-
tions, not only within the Empire but without the Empire. You
can have no arr^igement with a foreign country of any kind based
on mutual concessions; you must not even go the length that Canada,
South Africa, and New Zealand have ventured to go. You must
stop far short of that. You must hesitate before you press for
most-favoured-nation treatment anywhere, because that means mak-
ing disadvantages, but you are bringing yourselves and your relations
with them into the arena of conflict. If there are such dangers from
friction within the Empire there must be danger from the same
commercial friction without the Empire. If his argument is push-
ed, as it ought to be pushed, a stage further, it means cutting oif
Great Britain from any business negotiations with her rivals in-
volving possible causes of friction with them, or possible causes of
further discussion in the House of Commons. More than that, I
should have said in his presence that his argument appears to me to
go to the root of the Empire as an Empire. It would isolate Great
Britain, not only in trade, but in every other operation forbidding
joint action ; it would tell against every operation by agreement. It
would enforce isolation. I am sure that is not what the Under Sec-
retary of State intended. I am perfectly prepared to be told that
he sees where he is going to draw the line, but, I cannot see why,
to use his own words, if he follows out the logical deductions of his
own argument, he can stop short of a complete isolation of the Mother
Country from all her Colonies in matters of trade and commerce,
and from all foreign countries. Finally, he has to count with the
effect of his disruptive and extreme doctrines of individualism when
they come to be applied to any state action whatever, even in this
country itself.
CHAIRMAN: I think he spoke specially of food and raw ma-
terial.
Mr. DEAKIN : He did speak specially of duties on food and raw
materials as affording special cause for complaint. This argument
applies in either a greater or lesser degree to everything else, al-
though he properly laid most peremptory stress just now upon them.
To other duties or agreements about duties as to other forms of poli-
tical action it api)lic'S witli viirying force. There are matters far
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 429
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
from all fiscal connection which might become almost as vital, but Twelfth
it would be idle to pursue this speculation further. As his remarks 7f]?^"
were general and theoretical from first to last, and as he admitted 1907. '
himself developed a doctrine, I meet them in the same general and
rapid way. The interjection of the Chairman is pertinent, since '^Trade
it was upon the treatment of food and raw materials that Mr. Church- (jjp
ill dwelt, but the whole of his thesis as to dangers of friction, delays Deakin.)
in the House of Commons, and the other various difficulties he fore-
sees applies of necessity to the whole range of possible political bar-
gains and activities.
As at another part of his address Mr. Churchill alluded to prefer-
ence as implying what almost amounted to a revoting of any reci-
procity each year, another allusion of his mentioned the discussion
of reciprocity granted to some particular Dominion. We have not
got far on the road of preference in this Conference for many rea-
sons supplied by Ministers themselves, but if we had reached any
practical propositions. I do not think any member would have been
heard proposing and defending a special grant to each particular
Dominion. Sir Wilfrid Laurier has already touched upon this
point, incidentally, when he spoke of the scope of Canadian prefer-
ence, and contrasted it with the more discriminating preferences of
Australia and New Zealand. But no one, so far as I am aware, has
had in view a particular negotiation with each particular Dominion.
What we all had in contemplation, if preference kad approached the
practical stage, was a general agreement of a simple character at
first, which might in time be supplemented and extended. Its en-
largement would be based on experience, but, so far as I am aware,
no one has projected a separate and independent agreement to be
improvised now between the Mother Country and each of the self-
governing Colonies.
If the argument of the Under Secretary with reference to the
grave Parliamentary risks inherent in dealings with reciprocity or
financial proposals is sound it applies already with practically equal
force wherever preference has been given. I do not profess an inti-
mate acquaintance with the course of Canadian public affairs, but
Sir Wilfrid Laurier will correct me if I am wrong in stating, that
so far as I am able to follow Parliamentary proceedings in his coun-
try, none of the disastrous consequences which Mr. Churchill painted
as inseparable from all tariff adjustments have yet ensued. I am
not aware that Sir Wilfrid Laurier has found that every year the
preference granted to Great Britain, though it is still unreciprocated,
provoking the angry contention, occasioning the great friction, and
involving the fierce animadversions upon those concerned in it,
which are to accrue in this country if his theory were true.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It was in the first year, but it has
abated a lot.
Dr. SMARTT: As it would do here.
Mr. DEAKIN: As it would do, I take it, in every other country.
Any new course permits misapprehensions and invites challenge in
the first place. It has only been partly tried for a short time and
is not fully appreciated. Every first essay is likely to call for some
amendment to which criticism is properly directed. But listening
to the very forcible utterances of the Under Secretary, one naturally
looks to actual experience to discover the long chain of very hazard-
ous and serious consequences which he insists must flow in this coun-
430
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth try whenever these are to be criticised, or upon which comment is
7th u' possible every year. What is our experience after the granting of
1907?^' preferences? In Canada, New Zealand, and, with a shorter ex-
perience. South Africa, we have budgets as controversial, legislators
^'^Trade'^'^' just as sensitive to pubHc opinion, oppositions just as hostile and
eager to find material, sections just as able to make use of any wea-
pon in the armoury of parliamentary procedure. We have seen all
those forces in play in the politics of Canada for a number of years
and in the other Dominions for a certain number of years, without
their furnishing us with any single instance of any exceptional abuse
or injury due to the existence of their preferences, or indeed of their
tariffs. Whence the sweeping conclusions can be drawn as to the ef-
fects upon Parliament of the existence of financial relations of this
kind which Mr. Churchill depicted as not in these Dominions it is
impossible to guess. Consequently, I venture to submit that his view
of parliamentary proceedings is as abstract as his view of the econo-
mic considerations which he afterwards urged. In that field, I do not
propose to foUow him, because I have already indicated that our own
experience teaches us that the field of abstract economics is as far
from the actual practical considerations which operate in the daily
working of our financial and legislative expedients as are the princi-
ples of pure mathematics from the daily labours of a carpenter or
joiner. It is true that those principles are all implied in his handling
if you search for them far enough. In all he does, and in every mo-
tion his body makes, he obeys what we are pleased to call the laws
of nature. But doctrines collected into an abstract system, whether
of political economy or mathematics, really apply only outside this
world of limitations, of sense and experience. Undoubtedly they
have a certain application within it if you can get your theory to
exactly agree with all the conditions of a particular set of circtun-
stances; as a matter of practice, to dwell upon them leads to con-
fusion and beating the air, while the study of the actual consequences
of our own acts, in our own surroundings, or for their action and
re-action as discovered in facts and experience, is, so far as we can
judge, the only method which it is safe for politicians with business,
and practical men of every calling to employ.
Really when the Under Secretary went on to speak of the possi-
bility of sullen hatred (a phrase he repeated on more occasions than
one), being aroused by the existence of preferences if they were
found to be burdensome, and of darkly revolutionary proceedings
which were to ensue, he again entirely ignores our own experience.
There were oscillations in the opinions of the public of my country
before they settled down finally 'to our accepted policy, oscillations
which we frequently witnessed in Australia while we had six States
all pursuing the same experiments — fiscally now in favour of higher
Protection and then in favour of lower duties towards Free Trade.
I do not think that tlie temperature of policies is any lower in the
Commonwealth and its States than elsewhere. I might even be
prepared to maintain the contrary from my own personal experience.
But in the bitterest struggles that we have ever had upon exactly
the matters on which Mr. Churchill dwelt so strenuously, when we
were charged witli taxing the food of the people and taxing the raw
materials of manufacture, and particularly the implements of agri-
culturists, all thpi!e contentions though fought out with the greatest
bitterness poHticall.v at the moment, have vanished and will leave
not a trace behind. There was no time at which they severed the
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
431
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ordinary relations that obtained between Members of Parliament
who held the most absolutely diverse views. At no time have our
factions shown more than the usual amount of resentment which
accompanies differences of opinion. We have been through the pre-
cise experience which the Under Secretary of State has had to
imagine for himself as occurring in this country in the future under
the application of preference. The reality bears no resemblance to
his nightmare. Our tariff has been handled, and it has been handled
a great deal ; when we had six States some State or States were always
" tinkering " with their tariffs. We have had experience of pretty
well every kind of fiscal experiment that can be devised, and every
kind of strife that can arise out of it, but we have found
nothing whatever in our owti actual experience to justify Mr.
Churchill's morbid anticipations. I venture to say that in a country
of this kind, with its more established institutions and greater popu-
lation, with a power of more easily resisting relatively small sections
greater than we possess, although it seems almost an offensive thing
to say, I have absolute confidence in the House of Commons and of its
capacity to sustain quite as much strain as we have so long experi-
enced, and probably a very great deal more.
Those who followed Mr. Churchill closely will acquit me of, at all
events, consciously distorting or exaggerating his arguments, and have
pursued them very little further than he took them himself. Every
one of his contentions was followed up only to a certain point, and
fell very far short of its reasonable application. All his arguments
right through, that friction in Parliament is undesirable, that con-
stant discussions on financial matters, especially taxation, is relative-
ly unprofitable and to be deprecated, that the arrangement of finan-
cial relations which are to the loss of one party and to the profit
of the other are certain to aggravate the losing party — all those
things were true, but were magnified and exaggerated so beyond all
measure — that they temporarily hypnotised the Under Secretary, as
he with his eloquence was hypnotising us. It is as a protest that I
venture to urge that after all preference proposals do not differ ma-
terially from the ordinary financial proposals of each year. They
may not match those contained in the recent Budget of prosperity
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has delivered, but belong to
a class of proposals which this country will have to face as every
other country has to face them when times of depression come, when
income is short and has to be sought by new modes, when fresh de-
partures have to be taken as they have been taken in our country
in connection with land taxation, income taxes, and imposts gene-
rally of that sort. In regard to these, feeling does become heated and
very fierce for a time, but it is only for a time. The same experience
has to be gained in this country. There is nothing to differentiate es-
sentially your dealing with preference from your dealing with other
financial questions. No preference is proposed in perpetuity. Yet
one argument of the Under Secretary seems to suggest that he was
thinking of a preference that could not be departed from and to
which no term was fixed, whereas other parts of his address showed
that he realised that they were only treaties for fixed times, and
bound to be reviewed, though during currency they were capable of
being reviewed only by consent. I do not know whether that consent
would ever be sought or given, but am perfectly certain that no self-
governing community would entertain the project of parting with its
rights over its own taxation for more than a very limited period.
Twelfth
Day.
7t:i May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.^
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Twelfth
Day.
7th May,
1907.
Prefeiential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Each of the Dominions, having entered into a treaty of reciprocity
for a limited period, would hold to it without undue exacerbation on
the part of its politicians or people. We have tried it and there-
fore know. As a matter of fact, we have faced precisely the same
kind of problems, precisely the same class of irritating questions,
as Mr. Churchill considers preference must be. It has its risks like
every proposal. It has all the risk of every movement forward. If
you sit still you are comparatively safe; directly you advance you
incur the chance of collision with obstacles; but every day we have
to move individually. Every year let us hope our communities wiU
move, and move onwards. Unless we are going to forego all advance
we must take the consequences, the accompaniments of advance,
namely, increase of responsibility. For my own part I should be
very sorry to see any doctrine adopted which suggests that it is
intended to wrap the British i::jmpire in a napkin in case it should
catch cold. To treat it as if it possessed so tender a cuticle that it
could not be touched without permanent and fatal irritation, is to
brand it as a poor organism incapable of coping with the ordinary
difficulties in its path, or the necessary ailments which come from
abuses or mistakes. I do not say that working out a complete and
uniform and perfect system of preference is an easy thing. I only
say that none of us believed or expected it can be done until after
years of experience, but what we would have been quite satisfied with
now would have been an experiment, no matter how small, so long
as it was genuine, something tentative, something modest, even if
only made by means of reductions of existing duties. We wish for
something that will enable us to test experimentally, as for my part
I think we ought to test these and other similar suggestions. Mr.
Lloyd George generously admitted in his interesting and able speech
that mutual trade has its advantages and that any proposition
for its extension requires to be kindly and sympathetically handled.
So far as his own position permitted him I think he did handle it
sympathetically. I regret that at the conclusion his substitutes for
preference were not more positively defined. We are still left in com-
plete uncertainty in regard to his intentions except from a very
general indication. But I quite recognise that the tone of his re-
marks indicated an anxiety to find a means wherever means were
possible to him. I regretted to notice, therefore, that the Under
Secretary of State for the Colonies, like the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, although repeating the same view, did place another accent
upon it. He seemed to convey the idea that the way even for prac-
tical experiments, for practical tests of the smallest, the simplest and
most tentative kind, is absolutely barred by reason of certain be-
liefs which they entertain in regard to what they call the laws of
political economy. That is unfortunate, because it makes argument
useless; it brings you right up against a wall. When a man is pre-
pared to argue on the facts and from figures, as the Chancellor of
the Exchequer did at great length and for the greater part of his
address, you have something which appeals to one's judgment, and
to which you can hope to make some kind of reply dealing with
the same kind of material, in the hope of convincing him; but there
is no hope of convincing a man who starts out with nn orthodox faith
which tells him beforehand what can or cannot be done and what
can or cannot be believed, which makes everything not included in
that faith heterodox unbelief, neither to be weighed nor balanced.
COLONIAL COyFERENOE, 1907 433
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
but to be banished to the nethermost pit. That kind of dogma for- Twelfth
bids argument, or even if argrument is employed makes it absolutely ^^.P^'
useless. I hope we bring an open mind to this question ourselves. i907_
We have been asked what we will do if Free Trade is proposed to us. .
All I can say is, we should argue the question out on its merits. For jrade*'''
my part, if the Imperial Government at any time said: "We are i-q^
" prepared to enter into complete free trade between ourselves and the Jameson.)
" colonies, and to impose a tariff against the outside world," I should
say that it is a proposal, if put into practical shape, which would be
worth the very best consideration of all the Dominions. Everything
would depend on the tariff which was intended to be imposed against
the outside world. That is the first point. In the second place, al-
most everything would depend upon the capacity of each part of the
Empire to supply the void which would be made in its finances by
the loss of the customs' taxation upon which at present we all rely.
Apart, therefore, from our own industrial development, such a pro-
ject would mean a revolution in Colonial systems, and methods of
taxation.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Exactly, as preference means a revolu-
tion in our fiscal methods — there is no doubt about that. It is per-
fectly clear if you put a tax upon com. you have to put a tax on
every foreign commodity that comes into this country. Our system
would be revolutionised. Instead of being a system of what we call
Free Trade, it becomes a Protective system.
Dr. SMARTT : But you had a tax upon corn, and the argument
shows it had no effect in increasing prices.
Mr. LLOfD GEORGE: I know, but we had to take it off.
Even a Conservative Government had to take it off because they re-
cognised the impossibility of keeping up a tax of that sort without
putting it on all round.
Mr. DEAKIN : Surely there must be some proportion kept be-
tween cause and effect? Let me refer to one of your arguments,
which is fair, but cannot be applied either as immediately or as
strongly as you applied it; that is the argument that you cannot give
a little without being obliged to give a great deal more. First, we can-
not argue it, because that depends upon ourselves. Looking at the
Commonwealth, if you t«ll us if we do something, we will have to
do a great deal more, I say, my experience does not warrant that
conclusion. It is perfectly true a new start may establish a tendency,
if it is successful, encouraging you to go furthr, but if it is not suc-
cessful it establishes a tendency to go back. We have gone back
when we have thought we have made a mistake, and gone forward
when we have thought we have made a success. When you start
interfering with yrur industrial or economic system, even to im-
prove it, you encourage demands from other portions of your com-
munity who wish to share the same advantages which they believe
others receive. That is quite true. But really that is a contention
which can be so universally applied against every legislative project
and proposal, no matter what it may be. that it has no particular
force when associated with every form of legislative proposal. In
some cases it would have been less, and in others more force, but it is
never more than a guess.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: May I just point out this— and one
of ifr. Chamberlain's friends, Mr. Bonar Law, said it recently —
5S— 28
434
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth that Mr. Chamberlain's idea when he started was not to go in for a
7th Mav general protective system, but purely to set up a system of preferen-
1C07. ' tial trading with the Colonies on the basis of a tax on corn; but
-, ";: , . , he found when he looked at the whole problem that the demand for
x^rfiisrsn L 18.1
Trade. protection would be irresistible, and he tacked on a general system
'Mr. Lloyd "f protection to the preferential proposals.
Cieorge.) -q^.^ JAMESON: That is a general system of protection, and not
a general tariff with a view to giving preference to the Colonies.
There is always this horrid word " protection. "
Mr. LLO m GEORGE : I said yesterday I do not want to quar-
rel about words. I will use the word " tariff. " .1 do not want to beg
the question by using words you do not accept. I only state the fact
that Mr. Chamberlain found the demand would be irresistible, and
he had really to supplement his proposals by a proposal for a general
tariff. That was really the meaning of the Glasgow speech.
Mr. DEAKIN: May I come back to my argument in this way?
— the proposal for a preferential tariff will benefit the Colonies.
The i)eople of Great Britain say it is a very admirable thing to
benefit the Colonies, but then begin to ask why should not we benefit
ourselves at the same time and in the same way.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : They do not say so as a matter of fact.
Mr. DEAKIN: That was Mr. Chamberlain's line of advance.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, that was Mr. Chamberlain's pro-
posal, and I think he did it under pressure. I am sure he was keen
about the other.
_ Mr. DEAKIN : Then it was said : " If that is good for the Col-
onies it is good for us."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It was said under pressure.
Mr. DEAKIN : The people who influenced Mr. Chamberlain said,
" You are doing something for the Colonies by means of duties ;
had not you at the same time better do something for us ?"
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That was their view.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is a perfectly legitimate view, but if it
applies to him, as far as I understand your argument and that of
your colleagues it does not apply to you. You and those in agree-
ment with you do not think these duties are going to benefit the Col-
onies. If you give them at all it would be a concession of a more or
less sentimental character. Ilonce, if you think they will not benefit
the Colonies you will not think it will benefit your own people.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE ■■ To put it frankly, no doubt a duty on
corn and meat would be unpoitular. I do not suppose anybody in
this country would controvert thiit proposition for a moment on the
other side.
Mr. DEAIiJN : That is if it was sufficient to raise prices.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Well, the reluctance with which the Con-
servative party have taken up even the 2s. duty is the best proof of
that. And Mr. Chamberlain, he being the astutest politician we
probably have seen in my time in this country, saw at once he could
not get the country to take tlint pill without gilding it with some-
thing else. That is what it means. I am sure the people in this
country would never look at the idea of a duty on corn or meat
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
435
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
unless they become Protectionists on general grounds, and want to
exclude foreign manufactures.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Do vou think there is any use in
protraAing this discussion ?
Mr. DEAKIN : Beyond the fact that it is very interesting, I do
not know that it would help the immediate purpose before us. But
I do not want to shrink from any question the Minister wishes to put,
and to meet, as best my poor resources will allow, any argument he
submits. Our difficulty, of course, is, and I thinlt the Minister most
amply recognised it yesterday, that we each start with certain pre-
suppositions, whether derived from experience or education, and are
always coming back to them. We have neither time here nor the
means to get at those and deal with them finally. It is always an
engagement of outposts which we are maintaining. We cannot get
at the heart of the question in a meeting under the pressure that
exists here.
My excuse for having addressed the Conference again to-day, is
that I was not willing that an address so forcible and so well put as
that of the Under-Secretarj- of State for the Colonies should pass
without criticism from our point of view. M,y general answer to his
thesis is summed up in the proposition that he is like the medical man
who confines his patient to an invalid chair because, if he takes exer-
cise or performs his natural duties, he runs a risk of complications,
of catching cold, of all kinds of diseases and imaginable physical
accidents. I admit his aim. If you can get the British Empire into
an invalid chair, you may save it from a certain number of risks,
though I think those you invite by this treatment will be more
serious, because debility of the body threatens more dangerous re-
sults than healthy natural occupation or exercise. Especially will it
be found more depressing than a real effort to act in concert with
its children. I do not say we would not make mistakes, and would
not have sometimes to retrace our steps because we had temporarily
overshot the mark, but we should be going on, and have the satis-
faction of correcting mistakes and counting our successes, which I
believe would far overbalance those mistakes. Ultimately we should
arrive at co-operative action by such means, among others, as the
Board of Trade have suggested. Every time I have touched this
question I have from the first included improved cable communica-
tion, mail communication, and the diffusion of commercial intelli-
gence, the multiplying of commercial agencies in the country all as
parts of one system. I have never severed them. Preferential trade
with me means all those things as well as promoting our dealing
with each other's commodities. Speaking for the Commonwealth,
I shall welcome all or any of them, not as substitutes but accom-
paniments, necessary parts of the same scheme and the same doc-
trine, only accomplished in a different way, which appears to you more
acceptable than our first means. We want to use all means, and in
that regard I welcomed your speech as a hopeful augury that we
shall obtain from you before we part the positive proposals in a
definite shape which are to further that Imperial unity which I am
sure you desire.
CHAIRMAN : May I remind the Conference that Sir Wilfrid
Laurier, at the beginning of his remarks, put a specific proposal be-
fore us. He said that he wished to move that the Conference should
58— 28i
Twelfth
Day.
7th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
436 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth re-affirm the principle of the resolutions of 1902, and I think I am
7th Mav r'Sht in saying that he proceeded to say that he thought he could
1907. ' say for all the Dominions beyond the Seas, that they were agreed to
the first three of those resolutions of 1902. If the Conference de-
Trade, sires, I shall follow the precedent of 1902, and ask for the opinion
(Chairman.) of each Colony for and against. But assuming there was no dissent
at that moment — assuming that the proposition of Sir WiKrid Lau-
rier is correct and that those representing the Dominions beyond the
Seas are agreed with the principles of the first three resolutions, I
have to say that as far as His Majesty's Government are concerned we
have nothing to say in regard to the second or third. With regard
to the first we cannot give our assent so far as the United Kingdom
is concerned to a re-affirmation of the first resolution in so far as
it implies that it is necessary or expedient to alter the fiscal system
of the United Kingdom. That would be our position, and if the
other members of the Conference wish to re-affirm the resolution we
should have to state here that that is our opinion.
Then I understood that Sir Wilfrid Laurier proceeded to urge
that the following resolution proposed by Mr. Deakin, which stands
fourth on the Australian list, was one which he would desire to sup-
port and recommend to the Conference. I have to say on behalf
of His Majesty's Government in regard to that resolution, namely,
" That it is desirable that the preferential treatment accorded by the
" Colonies to the products and manufactures of the United Kingdom
"be also granted to the products and manufactures of other seK-
" governing Colonies " — that we have no objection, of course. We
recognise its advantages so far as the Colonies choose to adopt it,
but it is a matter essentially for their consideration. Sir Wilfrid
Laurier then said that he desired not to support the final resolution
of Mr. Deakin.
Mr. DEAKIN : He preferred No. 4 of 1902.
Sir WILIKID LAURijiR: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: We also cannot accept that resolution; but the
resolution that we would desire to put before the Conference is in
accord, I think, with the general tenour of Sir Wilfrid Laurier's re-
marks, and it is to this effect : " That this Conference, recognising
" the importance of promoting greater freedom and fuller develop-
" ment of commercial intercourse within the Empire, believes that
" these objects may be best secured by leaving to each part of the
" Empire liberty of action in selecting the most suitable means of
" attaining them, having regard to its own special conditions and
" requirements. " That is the resolution which His Majesty's Gov-
ernment would desire to put as summing up this discussion.
I do not know how J am to deal with the further resolutions be-
fore the Conference from New Zealand and the Cape; but I suppose
it would be, at any rate, desirable for the Conference to settle these
that are now submitted by Sir Wilfrid Laurier with the addition
which I propose first, and if there is anything else which has to be
added the other Colonies will then mention it.
Mr. DEAKIN : J^et me simplify matters by saying that in order
to obtain what, I hope, will be unanimity, I have no objection to ac-
cepting the proposal No. 4 of the Conference of 1902, instead of
* the new proposition. We put it in other words for the purpose of
separating the fiscal relations between the Dominions themselves and
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 437
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the relations with the United Kingdom more distinctly. I accept Twelfth
that proposal, and if Sir Wilfrid Laurier moves the whole resolution, „ '^*y-
shall be happy to support it. "'^'iM?*^'
Sir WILFRID LAUEIER: ,1 move the resolution of 1902 and Pietoential
Mr. Deakin accepts the fourth resolution in preference to his own for Trade,
the sake of unanimity. With regard to the resolution moved by Aus- (Mr.
tralia: " That it is desirable that the preferential treatment accorded Deakin.)
" by the Colonies to the products and manufactures of the United
" Kingdom be also granted to the products and manufactures of other
'' self -govern ingr Colonics" I say that I think the Clunrman's idea
an excellent one and I am ready to support it. I think it might be
the substance of another resolution, and not this one. Therefore, so
far as I am concerned, I propose to adhere to the resolution I have
moved. The point raised by Lord Elgin, I think, is well covered in
the last words of the fourth resolution : " That the Prime Ministers
" of the Colonies respectfully urge on His Majesty's Government the
" expediency of granting in the United Kingdom preferential treat-
'• ment to the products and manufactures of the Colonies, either by
" exemption from or reduction of duties now or hereafter imposed."
We do not impose or wish to have the appearance of dictating, but if
preferential duties are imposed we should have a preference in res-
pect of them. The point raised by Lord Elgin is well covered by that.
CHAIRMAN: No. 4 would be me* by new resolution.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I say resolution No. 4 covers the
idea that you have in your mind, that is to say, each party should be
left to determine for itself what is best. We are unanimous so far
in this, but the British Government tell us. No, we are not prepared
to admit the system of preference. We say, we do not ask you to
admit it now. It is for you to deeide, but whatever duties you do
impose we ask for a preference upon them. That leaves you to deter-
mine hereafter whether you put new duties or not. That is really the
subject between us, and it seems to me the resolution of 1902 substan-
tially meets the objection you have at the present time. I re-affirm
and all the Colonies affirm here, that we have no intention at all of
dictating that the Government should put new imposts which they
do not want to, but if they do put them, we should have preference
upon them.
CHAIRMAN : I am afraid I should not be able to accept it for
the resolution I propose.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : There is a line of cleavage.
Mr. DEAKIN: If we withdraw No. 4, and accept the resolution
which Ministers propose, it would mean an absolute retreat from the
position of 1902.
Dr. JAMESON : Besides, Lord Elgin will not agree to No. 1
either. I hope the Governments will vote. Lord Elgin has told us
he cannot.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE. How cnn we? It is for the Prime Min-
isters of the seK-governing Colonies.
Sir .TOSEPH WARD: I agree with the latter portion of the
resolution moved by Mr. Deakin, that it is desirable that preferential
tariffs should be included.
Mr. DEAKIN : We will do that separately.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Twelfth
Day.
7tli MaT,
1907. "
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
R«8olation
VI.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sir JOSEPH WARD: When those are disposed of, does that
mean the disposal of the other resolutions entirely, without submit-
ting them to the Conference?
Dr. JAMESON: No.
CHAIRMAN: No; I said at the beginning I should ask every-
one.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Because I want to move my resolution
with an omission from it, which I hope v?ill give us unanimity upon
it, irrespective of the others.
CHAIRMAN: \ery well. Had not we better dispose of the
others first?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Certainly. I should like to support the
resolution of Sir Wilfrid Laurier and also the proposal of Mr.
Deakin when it comes up separately.
Dr. JAMESON : On behalf of the Cape, the first resolution of the
Cape is exactly as proposed by Sir Wilfrid Laurier at present, and
we will not press that. With regard to the second resolution origin-
ally put by the Cape, I do not want to press that at all. As I ex-
plained in the remarks I made, it was more or less a warning, and
I will not press it.
Mr. DEAKIN : It was a very proper thing to call attention to.
Dr. JAMESON: That was the intention of it^to call attention.
CHAJRMAN: With regard to our position, I spoke of the three
first resolutions because I think Sir Wilfrid Laurier dealt with them
in his speech at first.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: No; I said I moved the whole of
those resolutions of 1902, but then I stated that, with regard to three
of them, there was no difference of opinion between us. With regard
to No. 4, Australia moved something else which Australia has now
withdrawn.
CHAIRMAN : Then I made my remarks based upon the remarks
you made on the first three. It does not seem to me to make much
difference, but the inclusion on your behalf of the whole foui is sub-
ject to the same reservation which I read on behalf of His Majesty's
Government : " His Majesty's Government cannot give its assent so
" far as the United Kingdom is concerned to a re-affirmation of the
" resolutions of 1902, in so far as they impl.v that it is necessary or
"expedient to alter the Fiscal system of the United Kingdom." Of
course No. 4 comes from .you all as Prime Ministers of the Colonies.
We do not make any representation, and you are quite at liberty to
make that representation, but we make this affirmation at the end.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Certainly, we cannot take exception
to that. You state your position and we state our position. It is
carried with this understanding.
CHAJRMAN: Does any one wish it to be put? Is that carried?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER' It is carried.
CHAIRMAN : Now, with regard to the resolution which I now
submit.
Mr. DEAKIN: My second resolution is: "That it is desirable
" that the United Kingdom grant preferential treatment to the pro-
" ducts and manufactures of the Colonies." That comes in because
COLONIAL CONFEREyCE, 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
we are adopting down to No. 4 which does not include that. What
I move now, is : " That it is desirable that the preferential treat-
" ment accorded by the Colonies to the products and manufactures of
" the United Kingdom be also granted to the products and manuf ac-
" tures of other self-governing Colonies."
Sir WZLFEID LAURIER: In principle I am ready to dispose
of that, but I am willing to modify the language.
Mr. DEAKIN: What do you propose?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I am not prepared to draft it to-day,
but it would be that we should have reciprocity. If a Colony does
not give any preferential treatment to the Mother Country, the reso-
lution would not apply perhaps.
Mr. DEAKIX : This was not intended to prevent that, it was only
a general affirmation of a desirable thing.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think I agree with you, but I would
like it to stand for a day. The principle suits me altogether, I may
say.
CHAIRMAN' There is some confusion I think. We must put
this resolution : " That this Conference recognising the importance of
" attaining greater freedom and fuUer development of commercial
" intercourse within the Empire, believes that these objects may best
" be secured by leaving it to each part of the Empire, liberty of action
" in selecting the most suitable means for attaining them, having re-
" gard to its own special conditions and requirements."
Mr. DEAKIN : Personally, I do not object to that principle, but
I do not know that it affirms anything.
Dr. JAMESON : You cannot either object or affirm.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : If you add to that " and that every effort
" should be made to bring about co-operation," then I think we could
all support it.
Mr. DEAKIN: Where would you put those words? They are
better.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : At the end.
Mr. DEAKIN : Anything after " co-operation " — do not you want
" between them," or something of that sort.
Dr. JAMESON : This puts us in a perfectly absurd position. It
does not really negative, but any one can read a negative into this,
to the resolution we have just passed of 1902.
Mr. DEAKIN : Do you think so.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I do not think so. You have expressed
your opinion that this is your way of co-operation, but we suggest
other methods of arriving at the same end. It is not a negative at all.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I suggest that these words be put in*
" and that every effort should be made to bring about co-operation in
" matters of mutual interest."
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E: Yes.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We are in co-operation on defence, emi-
gration and naturalisation.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : And for trade, too, we can co-operate.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : If you put that in I will support it.
Twelfth
Day.
7th Mav,
1907.'
Preferential
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
440 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Certainly, by all means.
Day.
7th May, Sir JOSEPH WARD : " And that every effort should be made to
^^"'' " bring about co-operation in matters of mutual interest."
PrdFerential Dr. JAMESON : May I be allowed to say a word about this. We,
5,. '^^ ^' , all the self-governing Colonies here represented during the last six
"" Ward.) days, have affirmed our belief in preference. His Majesty's Govern-
ment during those six days have affirmed their belief in no preference.
We are each to have liberty of action, and now we say we are both
right.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No.
Dr. JAMESON : That is the position.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We are to co-operate within the limits
we have set down for ourselves. That is all, surely. Dr. Jameson
does not say co-operation is impossible because we do not take the
same view about fiscal matters. It would be a very sad thing for
the Empire.
Dr. JAMESON- I should be delighted if Sir Joseph Ward's sug-
gestion of co-operation is put. I would vote for it with both hands
without this first part.
Mr. DEAKIN: Dr. Jameson wants this without the preamble.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think the preamble is all right.
Dr. JAMESON: This puts us in a ridiculous position. We have
said the members of this Conference outside His Majesty's Govern-
ment are in favour of preference as a method of the unity or whatever
you like to call it. His Majesty's Government gives a direct negative,
and we are both to vote for liberty of action. It is quite true we have
liberty of action, but what is implied in this is that we are voting
Yes is No, and No is Yes.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I do not quite see that, for this reason.
We, the whole of us, affirm that we reserve the imdoubted right for
our self-governing Colonies to do what we think right in our own
borders, and we will, none of us, give it up. The British Government
say exactly the same thing. It is evident they cannot vote for pre-
ference. It is equally evident that we all voted for preference. You
cannot do more than to make a declaration as to what you want.
Unless we are unanimoys and all agreeable to enter into preference
treaties and systems, you cannot get a preferential treaty. That is a
certainty. There is not much to be gained by saying we make a
declaration in our speeches — which we have all done, — and when it
comes to a resolution we are all going to vote one way and the
British Government the other. It follows, as a matter of procedure,
that if they do not vote we cannot get preference unless they assent
to it. So I want to bring about the feeling of co-operation at the
end of the resolution, believing there is to be more done in the future,
and that we cannot do everything to-day.
CHAIRMAN : I do not wish to raise unnecessar.v objections in
the least. Perhaps, with the prudence of a Scotsman, I rather wanted
to see it in writing. I have seen it in writing now, and we have no
objection in adding those words proposed by Sir Joseph Ward.
Dr. JAMESON : If Sir Joseph Ward will allow me to answer
what you have said, it seems to me this would have been an admir-
able resolution before we started the question at all, whether there
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
411
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
should be preference or not. We ought to start on that basis because
we all believe it; but having gone on that and come to absolutely
opposite positions, to now bring in the liberty of action surely is
absolutely useless, and the only reason it can be brought forward is
to emphasise the fact that all we have done is not worth anything.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think, on the contrary, His Ma-
jesty's Government has come a good way down to meet us here. They
say, " Very well, we accept the resolutions you have just afBrmed,
" but we want each party to be left to decide how to do it."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes, but let us co-ojierate where we can.
Dr. JAMESON: Outside the preference question this would be
admirable.
CHAIRMAN : To make it clear, I wish to say that we do make
a reservation with regard to those resolutions.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER- Exactly.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We each state our respective positions
and end up by saying : " Now let us co-operate within those limita-
•' tions."
Dr. JAMESON: Why not a rtsolution of co-operation?
Mr. DEAKIN : Is it not possible for us to take Sir Joseph Ward's
suggestion as our starting point instead of our conclusion, and then
adopt the language or a. good deal of it here, so that it wiU read this
way : " That every effort should be made to bring about co-operation
" between the several parts of the Empire subject to the complete
•' liberty of action of each in selecting the most suitable means for
" attaining it." That comes to the point. Every effort should be
made to bring about co-operation — that is a positive proposal — be-
tween the different parts of the Empire subject to the liberty of action
of each in selecting the most suitable means of attaining it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The only thing Mr. Deakin leaves out
is, " promoting greater freedom," and so on.
Mr. DEAKIN: We have that in our first resolution of 1902.
Mr. LLOYD GE0R3E : But that refers to one method only.
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, that was " stimulate and facilitate."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That is by one method. We want other
methods as well. Your opinion is that this is the best. We made it
quite clear what our opinion is, and then we end up by saying, " Let
" us do our best to promote commercial intercourse within the Em-
" pire, reserving to each party perfect freedom of action as to the best
" means of doing it."
Sir WILFRID LAURIER- I am satisfied to have the resolution
as amended by Sir Joseph Ward.
CHAIRMAN : We must adhere to that position.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: J think if we can get a unanimous
vote it would be all the better, because, I think, Mr. Deakin is not
very far from this resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN : How would this do : " That every effort should
" be made to stimulate and facilitate mutual commercial intercourse
" by co-operation between the several parts of the Empire, subject to the
" liberty of action of each in selecting the most suitable means for
"attaining it?" It puts the co-operation in the forefront. This
Twelfth
Dav.
7th Mav,
1907. ■
Preferential
Trade.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
442 COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth other resolution opens with a general statement which does not appear
7th Mav ^"^ ^PPly to anything, and then follows a particular proposal.
1907. ' CHAIKMAN: We have asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
Preferential ^^ ^^ ^^^ come over. In the meantime, if there is a point you wanted
Trade. to speak to about your own resolutions we might take it.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
CARRIAGE OF BRITISH GOODS IX BRITISH SHIPS.
Carriage of Sir JOSEPH WAED : I want to see if I can get my resolution
British'' unanimously agreed to. I want to suggest an alteration in it. The
Ships. affirming of the resolution of 1902. as proposed by Sir Wilfrid
Laurier to which I agree, as I think it is the best thing under all
the circumstances to-day, removes the necessity for independent
resolutions being moved by any of the seM-governing Colonies; but
I would like to slightly alter this resolution, in the hope that it may
meet witu at least a good send-off from this Conference. I want to
suggest : " That it is essential to the well-being of both the United
" Kingdom and His Majesty's Dominions beyond the Seas that in
" the transport of goods to the over-sea Dominions efforts in favour
" of British manufactured goods carried in British-owned ships should
" be supported by this Conference." I want to affirm the desirability
of carrying British manufactured goods in British ships, if I can,
and I should think the Conference generally would be able to assist
to that.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I would add " as far as practicable "
after the word supported — "That it is essential to the well-being of
"both the United Kingdom and His Majesty's Dominions beyond the
"Seas that in the transport of goods to the over-sea Dominions efforts
" in favour of British manufactured goods carried in British-owned
" ships should be supported as far as practicable."
Mr. F. R. MOOR : Are not we getting into confusion ? We might
deal with one thing at a time.
CHAIRMAN: We are only taking this to fill up time.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : So far as Canada is concerned I am
disposed to agree to this. Perhaps Sir Joseph Ward will agree to my
suggestion of the word " desirable," instead of " essential." In Can-
ada a resolution was introduced to limit the benefit of the preference
on British goods only to those imported through Canadian ports. We
accepted the resolution, but with a modification which is to come into
force shortly, when in the opinion of the Governor in Council the
trade has been sufficiently developed so as to allow us to get impor-
tations into Canadian ports. At present many imports come by way
of the United States. That is a relic of the practice of former days,
when Canada had to get its trade developed through the means of
the southern ports, but now we are getting our own ports equipped,
we hope, by and by, to possibly dispense altogether with intermediate
States. This is on the same lines. To confine British trade to British
bottoms there can be no serious objection. I agree to it very willingly,
especiall.v as Sir Joseph Ward has agreed to put into it " as far as
" practicable." It could not be done at the present time so far as
Canada is concerned. We have to use other ships, but we are getting
to use more and more the British ships. So I accept it with the
qualification " so far as practicable," because it could not be put into
force immediately.
COLONIAL CONFEREKCE, 1907 443
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : " British manufactured goods in British Twelfth
shipping," instead of '" carried in." -i.c »?"
/th May,
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, I will make the alteration. I only i907.
want to affirm something in that direction. Carriaee of
Mr. DEAKEST: Are you moving that? Goods in
British
Sir JOSEPH WARD' Yes. Ships.
Mr. DEAiaX : But you are not moving it in this altered form. ^ Lau^e/f*^
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes.
Mr. DEAKIX: Will yon read it?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Will you allow me to withdraw, as
I have an engagement in a few minutes. I stand by Sir Joseph
Ward's resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN: But we are working out an alternative.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : If Sir Joseph Ward accepts the alter-
native, I am satisfied, and I follow it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The resolution will read in this way:
" That it is desirable in the interests both of the United Kingdom and
" His Majesty's Dominions beyond the seas, that efforts in favour of
" British manufactured goods and their carriage in British-owned
" ships, should be supported as far as practicable."
Mr. DEAiaX: That is all right.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I would prefer to leave out the words
" their carriage in British-owned ships," and make it " efforts in
* favour of British shipping '" because we want to carry other goods.
We are not depending only upon the carriage of our own goods.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It is the same things " That it is advisable
" in the interests both of the United Kingdom and His Majesty's
" dominions beyond the Seas, that efforts in favour of British manu-
" factured goods and British shipping should be supported as far as
" practicable."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes.
CHAIRMAN : I put this resolution : " That it is advisable in the
" interests both of the United Kingdom and His Majesty's Domin-
" ions beyond the Seas that efforts in favour of British manufactured
" goods and British shipping should be supported as far as practica-
" ble." Is this agreed to ?
The resolution was carried unanimously. Kesolntion
VIII.
PREFERENTUL TRADE.
CHAIRMAN: I think I understood, Dr. Jameson, you did not Preferential
... . Trad©
Wish to raise any point upon your resolution.
Dr. JAMESON : Not the resolution on the paper, but I wish to
put the resolution I brought forward yesterday.
Dr. SMARTT : That has been accepted in principle already. It
is merely an extension.
Dr. dAMESON: My real difficulty with regard to this is, as has
been emphasized, I am glad to say, by one of my political opponents
since my departure from South Africa, that unless preference is
444
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
TweHth
Day.
7th Mav,
1907.
coupled with some form of reciprocity it may be withdrawn,
fore I am bound to bring this resolution forward.
CHATRMAI^ :
There-
As the Chancellor of the Exchequer has arrived
Preferential we had better finish the first resolution. Mr. Deakin wishes to put it :
Trade.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
" That every effort should be made to stimulate and facilitate mutual
" commercial intercourse between the several parts of the Empire by
" the development of all their means of inter-communication, subject
" to the liberty of each self-governing Dominion to select the most
" suitable methods for giving effect to it."
Mr. ASQTJITH : Is this a proposition as a substitute for the whole
resolution? I certainly prefer the resolution as it stands very much.
I think it is much wider in its scope and clearer in its language. I
think the fresh one rather limits it.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE' The development of all means of com-
munication is the most important limitation. There are other means
of practical commercial intercourse in the Empire.
Mr. ASQUITH: I agree with the words as previously proposed.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: This other resolution of Mr. Deakin's
does not go so far as I am prepared to go.
Mr. DEAKIN : I will put in the word " especially."
, Mr. ASQUITH: "Everj' effort should be made by co-operation."
Mr. DEAKHN: They are right, but it is the preliminary part I
object to. It seems too vague.
Dr. JAMESON : It seems to me emphasising a truism which we
have acknowledged to begin with, unless it means something different.
If it only means what is on the face of it this original resolution of
the Government is a mere truism which we all acknowledged before
we began the Conference, and all through the Conference. We have
always emphasised it. Why do it again unless there is some other
reason for it?
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: Mr. Deakin's resolution affirms the
resolution as a liberty of action. He does not object to that.
Mr. DEAKIN : I put it in because you wished it, not that I think
it necessary.
Dr. JAMESON: This one of Mr. Deakin's is a separate subject.
We have done with Tariff Eeform or preference and now deal with
other methods of commercial intercourse, whereas this other resolu-
tion implies a negative of what we have been doing this week so far
as the Colonies are concerned.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : You have affirmed your view of the best
method. We have affirmed ours. Now, upon the basis of that mutual
understanding of each other's positions we agree upon this.
Dr. JAMESON' Upon what — to have liberty which we have all
agreed upon long ago? Why put it in?
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : No. Sir Joseph Ward's resolution carries
it a good deal further than that. I think these are the important
words: "That every effort should be made to bring about co-operation
" in matters of mutual interest." It carried it beyond what Dr.
Jameson is afraid of — a mere barren affirmation of a thing we all
agreed to.
Dr. JAMESON : I cannot see the use of this at the beginning of
COLONIAL CONFERENOE, 1907
445
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir Joseph Ward's resolution. I shall be delighted to pass the resolu-
tion on everything — co-operation, communication, and everything
else, but why reiterate this truism which I am afraid various people
will say after a week's discussion is a kind of slur on the discussions
of the week past.
Mr. ASQUITH : Not at all.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : You will not deny liberty of action even
to the Mother Country.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Mr. Deakin in the course of the speech
which he delivered before the suggested words that I have added were
put into the proposition coming from Lord Elgin, stated that in
giving any support to the resolution moved by Sir Wilfrid Laurier
re-affirming the resolution of 1902 on behalf of his Government he
required a qualification. He proposed to support this resolution with
a qualification, and this is the qualification.
CHAIRMAN: With the other words used.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: So we have the resolution of 1902 re-
affirmed, the British Government having put on record their desire
to keep to their position. With regard to that, from the point of view
put before the Conference, I see no harm in accepting that resolution.
Mr. ASQUITH : The Imperial Government consider it essential
that those words should stand in the resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN: That each should have its liberty.
Mr. ASQUITH: Yes.
Mr. F. R. MOOR' Nobody has questioned that principle.
Mr. ASQUITH: We wish to have it put on record.
Mr. DEAKIN : Would this get rid of the difficulty : " That every
" effort should be made to stimulate and facilitate co-operation in
" matters of mutual interest between the several parts of the Empire,
" especially by the development of all through means of inter-com-
" munication, subject to the liberty of each seK-governing Dominion
" to select the most suitable methods for giving effect to it." That, I
think, contains everything important— affirmation, co-operation in
matters of mutual interest, and further development of inter-com-
munication, and the other qualification on which you lay stress —
that it is subject to the liberty of each self-governing Dominion to
select the most suitable methods.
Mr. ASQUITH: No, I do not think there is any very substantial
difference between them; but, to my mind, there is an important dif-
ference in the mode of expression and the order. I believe that is
the real difference between us — the other in which the two parts of
the subject are dealt with — and from one point of view, as we have
given great consideration to this, we think the affirmation of freedom
should come first and the other next.
CHAIRMAN: This is the resolution which His Majesty's Gov-
ernment puts before the Conference: "That this Conference recog-
" nising the importance of promoting greater freedom and fuller de-
" velopment of commercial intercourse within the Empire, believes
" that these objects may be best secured by leaving to each part of
" the Empire liberty of action in selecting the most suitable means
" for attaining them, having regard to its own special conditions and
Twelfth
Day.
7th May,
1907.
Preferential
Trade.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
446 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Twelfth " requirements, and that everj' effort should be made to bring about
7tli May " co-operation in matters of mutual interest."
^^ Dr. SMARTT : Might I ask you as Chairman, whether the Con-
Preferential ference, having affirmed resolution No. 1, which states, " That this
Trade. " Conference, recognising that the principle of preferential trade be-
(Chairman.) « tween the United Kingdom and His Majesty's Dominions beyond
" the Seas, will stimulate and facilitate mutual commercial inter-
" course," it is competent for this Conference to propose a resolution
which does not afSrm this resolution.
CHATRMAX : I specially said we did not agree to that.
Dr. SMARTT: I thoroughly understand that, and you have
registered your vote as President of this Conference, and a very im-
portant vote, as not agreeing with it. Notwithstanding that, the Con-
ference has maintained the principle laid down in the first resolution,
and I wish to say that this resolution following the other would mean
that the Conference had departed from its position that the best way •
of developing this mutual co-operation would be by preference.
CHAIEMAX : If you ask me as President, I do not think it is
out of order.
Dr. JAMESON : If this means anything to me it means this, that
we have decided to differ here on a question of preference; the self-
governing Colonies against His Majesty's Government taking abso-
lutely different views. This resolution is to emphasise the fact that
for commercial intercourse the best thing is for the Colonies to give
preference and for His Majesty's Government not to give preference.
If we vote for this it puts us in the position that we agreed to that,
and stultifies everything we have said for the last week. I say that
because I personally could not support that on behalf of my colony
as it stands. I want to emphasise again that we all say we must have
absolute liberty of action on this and every other subject.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Sir Wilfrid Laurier, who was the very
first to give preference to the Mother Country, does not think so.
Dr. JAMESON : I disagree with Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : His was the first colony to propose it—
and a very substantial preference he gave us — and he has improved
upon it since. Certainly, he does not take that view. He is the
father of preference within the Empire.
Dr. JAMESON: Sometimes you find children get a little more
advanced than the father or mother, as the case may be.
Mr. DEAKIN: This would be my position. I do not specially
object to this resolution even as it stands, though I admit there is
force in Dr. Jameson's fear that it may be misinterpreted. There are
words that would make it acceptable to me, if not to the other mem-
bers. I would propose that after the word " that " we introduce the
words: "without prejudice to the resolutions, already accepted, this
" Conference recognises the importance of promoting greater free-
" dom," and so on.
Dr. SMARTT: That will do.
Mr. ASQUITH : Let us see if we can meet Mr. Deakin. We are
anxious to if we can. You said the resolutions, but you must in-
clude the reservation made by the Imperial Government.
Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly the resolutions or reservations.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 447
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. ASQFITH: It had better be on the face of it to make it Twelfth
P^a»n- 7th°ll;y.
Mr. DEAKIN: To make it plain I have put: "That without pre- 19P7.
"judice to the resolution already accepted or the reservation of His Preferential
" Majesty's Government, this Conference, &c." Trade.
CHAIEMAN: I will read it again to make it quite plain. Deakin.)
Dr. JAMESON' I am quite content.
Mr. F. E. MOOR: I am satisfied.
General BOTHA: Yes.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: I am quite satisfied.
Mr. DEAKIN: We always get imanimous before we finish.
CHAIRMAN: This is the resolution of the Conference. Resolution
VII
Dr. JAMESON: Then there is my further resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not know whether the President has a
resolution with reference to coastwise trade. I take it that is bound
up with this, in a sense.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will show you Sir Robert Finla/s
opinion on that, and then if, after that, you still think it right, you
will press it.
Mr. DEAKIN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN: The only arrangement I have made for to-morrow
is that the First Lord of the Admiralty will come.
Dr. JAMESON: May we first finish up this resolution, or it will
disappear altogether.
Mr. ASQUITH" I think we had better dispose of it now.
Dr. JAMESON : Very well. I will propose it.
Mr. ASQUITH: This is as to preference on present dutiable
articles. I am not going to take up any time. You understand our
position iu the matter. We think it would concede the principle with-
out doing any substantial good to anybody.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes, I understand that, but the main reason is
it will help me to keep the preference going in South Africa if I put
it here, even if I only vote for it myself, but I hope General Botha
will vote with me on it.
CHAIRMAN: The resolution moved by Dr. Jameson is: "That
" while affirming the resolution of 1902 this Conference is of opinion
" that as the British Government through the South African Cus-
" toms Union — which comprises Basutoland and the Bechuanaland
" Protectorate — do at present allow a preference against foreign coun-
"tries to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and
" all other British Possessions granting reciprocity. His Majesty's
" Government should now take into consideration the possibility of
" granting a like preference to all portions of the Empire on the pre-
" sent dutiable articles in the British tariff."
Mr. DEAKIN : It is only a request to consider. You do not dis-
sent from that?
Dr. JAMESON: The consideration of possibly doing it.
Mr. DEAKIN : You are not asked to say you will do it or not.
Mr. ASQUITH: We have considered it.
448
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Twelfth
Day.
7th May,
1907.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. DEAKIN : You can consider it again.
Mr. ASQUITH : If you please we will take the same attitude with
regard to this as with regard to the other — an attitude of reservation.
Preferential W'e do not conceive we are free to do this.
Trade.
(Mr.
Asquith.)
Resolution
IX.
Mr. DEAKIN' Tou are always free to consider it if not free to
grant it.
Dr. SMAETT : You are doing it at the present moment.
Mr. ASQUITH: I was not aware of the case of BechuanalanJ
and Basutoland.
Dr. JAMESON: It has been very advantageous to those two
Protectorates.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: That means a reduction in your duties if
it is given effect to — not an imposition of duties.
Mr. DEAKIiST : It means only a reduction if it is granted, but it
does not promise that any reduction will be granted.
Mr. ASQtriTH: But it means that we are to consider the ques-
tion whether we shall treat the foreigners and the Colonies as it were
differently, and that we conceive we are not able to do.
Dr. JAMESON : That is the whole of it. I would like it put to
the Conference.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I will support that.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: I support it.
CHAIRMAN : Do you support it, General Botha ?
General BOTHA: No, I do not support it.
Sir ROBERT BOND' Yes, I support it.
CHAIRMAN: We do not; we dissent from it.
Mr. ASQUITH: Sir Wilfrid Laurier is not here.
CHAIRMAN: That will be recorded. Those are all the resolu-
tions.
Mr. DEAKTN : There are the subsidiary motions. I do not know
if you would pass the others without discussion. Our resolution is:
" That the Imperial Government bo requested to prepare for the in-
" formation of Colonial Governments, statements showing the privi-
" leges conferred, and the obligations imposed on the Colonies by
" existing commercial treaties nnd thnt inquiries be instituted in con-
" nection with the revision proposed in resolution No. 5, to ascertain
" how far it is possible to make those obligations and benefits uniform
•'through the Empire." It only asks for information and inquiries
as to all commercial treaties.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : We cannot answer you that on the spur
of the moment.
CHAIRMAN: We will do to-morrow such other business as I
can arrange.
Adjourned to to-morrow at 10.30 o'clock.
COI.OMAL VOyi'ERENCE, 1907
449
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
INTER-IMPERIAL TRADE.
Retirn showing for the last year for which figures were avail-
able : —
(a) The value of all articles imported into the United King-
dom from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and British South
Africa, respectively, (i) free of duty, (ii) subject to duty;
(h) The value of all articles imported into Canada, Australia,
New Zealand, and Briti.sh South Africa, respectively, from the
United Kingdom, (i) free of duty (ii) subject to duty.
(A) Value of all Articles Imported into the United Kingdom which
were consigned from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and
British South Africa, respectively, (i) free of duty, (ii) subject
to duty.
Colony whence Consigned.
Imports (Consignments) of Merchandise into the
United Kingdom in 1906.
Free of Duty.
Subject to Duty.
Total.
From Canada
It Australia
n New Zealand
.> Britihh South Africa*. . .
£
28,019,668
29,178,609
. ; 15,618,850
.! 6,327,476
£
15,368
10«;,537
KB
16,894
£
28,035,036
29,285,146
15,619,013
6,344,370
'Including Rhodesia, Orange River Colony, and the Transvaal. The figures
given are exclusive of the value of diamonds from the Cape of Good Hope, which
amounted to £9,179,333 according to figures supplied by the Cape Government.
(B) Value of all Articles imported into Canada, Australia, New
Zealand, and British South Africa, respectively, from the United
Kingdom, (i) free of duty, (ii) subject to duty.
Colony.
Imports of Merchandise from the United
Kingdom.
Free of Duty.
Subject 1
to ' Total.
Duty.
(a) Canada (vear ended June 30, 1906).
(6) Australia (1905)
New Zealand (1905)
(c) British South Africa (1904)
£
3,406,000
5,738,000
(d) 2,484,000
[d) 6,506,000
£
10,81.5,000
14,513,000
5,300,000
14,335,000
£
14,221,000'
20,251,000
7,784,000
20,841,000
(a) The figures represent imports for consumption.
(6) The figures represent imports of goods the produce or manufacture of the
United Kingdom.
(c) Approximate figures, compiled from the returns of the various South African
colonies. Later detailed figures are not yet available, but the total value of mer-
chandise imported from the United Kingdom into British South Africa amounted to
£16,938,000 (exclusive of Colonial Government stores) in 1906, this being the first year
for which returns were compiled by the South African Statistical Bureau for ' British
South Africa as a whole.'
{d) Inclusive of the value of certain goods which are free of duty when the pro.
duce of the United Kingdom hut subject to duty when the produce of other countries
Note. — The figures in the above Statements are exclusive of the
value of bullion and specie.
A. WILSON FOX.
Board of Trade, April, 1907.
58—29
450 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Thirteenth THIRTEENTH DAT.
Day.
1907.^^' * Held ix the Colonial Office, Dowsing Street,
'- Wednesday, Sth May, 1907.
Present :
The Right Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, E.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime Min-
ister of Canada.
The Houoiirable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Common-
wealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyne, KC.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New
Zealand.
The Right Honourable Sir Robert Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister
of Xewfoundland.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works (Cape
Colony).
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General the Honourable Louis Botha. Prime Minister of the Trans-
vaal.
The Right Honourable Winston S. Chvrchili., M.P., Parliamentary
Under Secretary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B.. K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. ilACKAY, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E.. on behalf of the India Office.
Mr H. W. JiST, C.B.. C.M.G..) ^ . , „ , .
Mr. G. W. Johnson, c.M.G.. V*"' ^"'■' "''
^Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also Present:
The Right Honourable D. Lloyd Georce, ;M.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith. C.B., Permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fo.x, C.B., Comptroller-General of the Commercial,
Statistical, and Labour Departments of the Board of Trade.
"Mr. (;. J. Stanley. C.;M.G., of the Board of Trade.
Mr. Algernon Law, of the Foreign Office.
COLOMAL COXFESENCE. 1907 451
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
The Right Iloiioiivable The Lord Tweedmoutii, First Lord of the Thirteenth
Afhiiiralty. Mh^\l-
The Right Honournblo E. K<ibkrtsox, M.P., Parliamentary Secre- 1907''^'
tary to the Admiralty.
(\\PTAiN Ottley, M.V.O., R.N., Direetor of Naval Intelligence.
Mr. W. Graham Greene. C.B., Assistant Secretary to the Admir-
alty.
Sir W. S. RoBsox, K.C., Solicitor-General.
I:MPERIAL surtax on foreign imports. Imperial
Surtax on
CHAIRMAN: We begin with the Treaty question. Foreign
Imports.
Mr. DEAIvIN: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, if I may, I would
like to hand in a draft embodying the general proposal which I have
twice suggested for the consideration of the Conference. This I
have now shaped, I think, into a more intelligible form, so that be-
fore we leave trade questions we might have an opportunity of seeing
whether any co-operation is possible in this direction. I will read
it: "This Conference recommends that in order to provide funds
" for developing trade, commerce, the means of communication, and
" those of transport within the Empire, a duty of one per cent, upon
" all foreign imports shall be levied, or an equivalent contribiition be
" made by each of its Legislatures. After consultations between
■' their representatives in conference, the common fund shall be de-
" voted to co-operative projects approved by the Legislatures affected,
" with the general purpose of fostering the industrial affairs of the
" Empire so as to promote its growth and unity. "' The one per
cent, is fixed merely as a basis to start from, and the suggestion of
an equivalent contribution made by each of the Legislatures would,
I hope, meet Sir Wilfrid Laurier's objection. The plain provision
that this fund is to be devoted to co-operative purposes approved by
the Legislatures affected, preserves in the amplest way their powers
of self-government and their control of this fund. If adopted, this
would provide a means of co-operation in respect of the expenditure
of the fund thus created. I will now circulate it.
CHAIRMAN : You do not propose to discuss it.
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, I have asked for this twice before.
CHAIRMAN : We cannot possibly discuss it at this moment, be-
cause it must go before the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It is a Treasury matter.
Mr. DEAKIN: I do not mean to discuss it now
Dr. JAMESON: It must go before the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer if the Imperial Government contributes.
:Nrr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is altogether a Treasury matter, whe-
ther duty or equivalent contribution.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes. But the questions of better means ol com-
mvniication and transport are matters to which you have specially
referred more than once, and this is the means of providing a joint
fund out of which those means could be financed.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Have you worked out roughly what it
would come to.
Mr. DEAKIN: I have some figures here, but they are not ma- '
58— 29 J
452
COLONIAL COyPEREyCE. 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th Mav,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
terial. If preferential trade is ruled out, and the resolution we
have passed practically disposes of it as far as this Conference is
concerned, -we are left in the void. We have now to look for addi-
tional means towards the same end.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : By way of elucidating it, not by way
of debating it, what does " equivalent contribution '' mean i For
instance, take this case. Our imports from foreign countries are
over 400,000,OOOZ. or something of that sort. Does that mean that
we are to contribute at the rate of one per cent, on the merchandise
imported into this Kingdom?
Mr. DEAKLN : The proposal is that you should either levy a duty
of one per cent., or whatever percentage you agree upon ; or contri-
bute the same amount from any other source.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Do you mean contribute on the 400,000,-
000?.?
Mr. DEAKIX : How otherwise could you measure equality of
contribution ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It is hardly what I call an equality of
contribution. Dr. Jameson would contribute about 100,OOOL, and we
4,0(X),000?. That is not what I call equality, quite.
Mr. DEAKIX : It is if you look to the fact that you decide how
your 4,000,OOOZ. is to be spent.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We get an equivalent for it?
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, you may offer its equivalent.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But you will not give us 40 votes to
Dr. Jameson's one — I am not suggesting that.
ilr. DEAKIN: The proposal here is that you should practically
control the expenditure of your 4,000,000Z., and we of our 40O,00OZ.,
or whatever it is.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is premature to discuss it now. I
only want to know what amount we are to contribute. Supposing
we had a sort of arrangement with you which would involve the ex-
penditure of 400,000/., and that you would contribute 200,OOOZ. and we
20O,000L, that is one way of interpreting "equivalent contribution."
The other is the way you have explained now. that we should contri-
bute forty times as much.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: With about forty times as much at stake.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, it is not we who have come first
of all to complain of present arrangements.
Mr. DEAKIN: First of all, we are 5,000,000 people and I have
yet to learn that you number forty times that.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The difference would be nearly ten to
one.
Mr. DEAKIN: You are a little more than eight to one.
Mr. LLOYD (lEORGE: One per cent, would mean that your
share would be 50,000Z.
Mr. DEAKIN: I will not touch that now. I will go into the
figures later. The principle is that you put into this fund, for ar-
gument's sake, 800,000/. iind wo 100,000/., as far as we two are con-
cerned. Then for any joint service you would consider how much
of your 800,000/. you would devote towards it. and we should consider
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
45S
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
how much of our 100,000/. we should devote towards it. We should
not be the only partners. Any proposal we were interested in, New
Zealand might he and Canada might be, and others might be. But
the idea is to have a joint fund. Roughly the amount contributed
by each country to that fund should be within its own control to the
extent that it could not be applied to any purposes until its legisla-
ture has approved of the proposal, which would set out how much
the United Kingdom, how much Canada, how much Australia, and
how nnich Xew Zealand contribiite. The Legislatures do not let go
of anything. They deal witli their own money under this resolution
as they do now. and unless they are satisfied a fair distribution has
been arranged they will not pass it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Still, if it is a bargain between us and
the Colonies that we should spend some four million pounds upon
objects of this kind, we have to spend them somehow or break the
treaty.
Mr. DEAKIiSr: Yes. while the treaty lasts.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Before we enter into a bargain of that
sort we have to see what it means.
Mr. WILFRID LAURIER: You say it is to be a general fund,
and if you create a general fund, how are you leaving it to the
Legislatures to distribute?
Mr. DEAKIX: You have no choice between that and creating
some other body which would displace our Legislatures. I think that
is impossiole.
Sir WILFRID LAUHIER : Yoti can leave it to each Legislature
to do as much as it pleases without creating a fund.
Mr. DEAKIX: But if we can agree at once that there shall be
such a fund and fix its amount that would be a first step to Imperial
co-oi)eration. The existence of that fund would make it imperative
that there should be from time to time consultations of a business
character as to how that fund should be applied, and how the re-
spective portions contributed by each shall be arranged. It would
have to be absolutely under the control of the Legislatures, but there
would be a fund and full consideration from time to time as to how
it could be most fruitfully applied. The Legislatures would have to
be satisfied as to its application in each instance.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I understand you do not move it this
morning ?
Mr. DEAKIX: Xo.
Dr. JAMESOX : J think this is an attempt on Mr. Deakin's part
to found a fund for the schemes which the President of the Board
of Trade suggested.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : To found a fund at our expense.
Dr. JAilESOX : Not all at your expense. Up to now, the indi-
cation has been that it was to come entirely from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We should contribute at least 5Z. net
for every 1/ the Colonies in the aggregate would contribiite. Perhaps
that is too high; but two or three to one at least.
Mr. DEAKIX : We are over 12.000.000 people and you 43,000,000
people between three and four times as much.
CHAIRMAN : May we proceed now to the other business ?
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
454 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Thirteenth COASTWISE TRADE.
Day.
**'^Q~*^' Mr. DEAKIX : With reference to this resohition, as to coastwise
'- trade, I had expected my colleague would be here in time to deal
Coastwise with this. The matter which is embodied in this resolution was fully
I" ^' considered on a number of occasions by the Conference of 1902. We
an ma .; y^^^^ ^^^^ before us its resolution, which asks the attention of the
Government to the state of the navigation laws in the Empire and
the advisability of revising the privileges as to coastwise trade,
including trade between the ilother Country and its Colonies and
Possessions, and between one Colony and Possession and another,
to countries in which the corresponding trade is confined to ships
of their own nationalit.v. Tt was Tipon the motion of the late Mr.
Seddon. representing New Zealand, that this question was given such
prominence to. This same resolution was passed in 1902.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Do you recollect what the Imperial Gov-
ernment did then?
Mr. DEAKIX: They allowed the resolution to be passed without
any objection whatever. It was brought forward b.v Mr. Seddon,
from whose speech I take a quotation of an utterance of Senator
West, in the United States Congress, when he said : " We can ex-
" elude foreign ships from our coastwdse trade, and no foreign nation
" can complain ; and, of course, with the monoiwly of building these
" .ships, and repairing them, our shipowners have a harvest each year
'■' which they could obtain nowhere else." The United States are
amongst the countries who have emphatieall.v reserved their coast-
wise trade and given a very wide interpretation to that term. The
Secretary of State at that time invited special attention to this part
ot Mr. Seddon's proposal, at page 72 ; and Sir Wilfrid Laurier, who
had evidently given this subject close attention, at page 73, pointed
out that 50 years ago the Navigation Laws " were reijealed, largel.v
'■' at the instance of the Colonies, and perhaps Canada was one of
" the chief motors in the new departure. The conditions have
'■ changed very much since that time. The Americans have extended
" their navigation laws, but not only to the coasting trade, but to a
"class which is not at all used for coasting trade; for instance, they
" have applied their law on the Pacific Ocean not only to the coast
'■ of the American continent, not only to the coast of the United
" States from California up to British Columbia, but they include
" Honolulu as part of the United States. They have not allowed
" the privileges to other slupping. They reserve that exclusively to
"themselves." He explained the Canadian law. which offers reci-
procity in the coasting trade — an offer nut then taken advantage of
by the United States, nor. I think, since. TIk^ representative of the
Commonwealth. Sir Edmund Barton, at page 70>, said: "Whether
" it would be possible with the concurrence of the whole of the self-
" governing portions of the Empire to make a general navigation
" law accepting and asserting the principle, and leaving the applica-
" tion of it to the autonomous action of the Governments concerned,
"is a question which may well be considered: and I think this whole
" question of the navigation laws is one which nuiy demand a larger
" and longer discussion than we have given to it yet." T think that
discussion has now been held undiT tlu' iirc^idiMicy ur i-bairiuauship
of the President of the Board of Trade.
},[t. U.OYT) GEORGE: That is so.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
455
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: Was it the law of ^Merchant Shipping only, or the
Xavigatinn Laws wliich were under consideration?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think we pretty well covered the whole
ground.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is so.
Mr. DEAKIX : So I understand. This question now comes to
us almost by transfer from your Conference.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Was this move.1 at all at our Confer-
ence?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: .My impression is that it was not.
ilr. LLOYD GEORGE: The only question we projwsed to refer
to this Conference was to the islands of the Pacific, whether they
should be included as part of the coastwise trade of Australia.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: At the Navigation Conference we dealt
with the power, admitted by everybody, of the Colonies to govern
shipping within their own territories. We decided that the inter-
communication between an outside place and the Colonies we had no
jurisdiction over beyond our own waters. We decided to go for uni-
formity in legislation as far as possible, to meet the different re-
quirements of the Empire. The cause of this being referred here,
was a desire on our part to try and control ships and shipping in the
islands of the Pacific, making those islands part and parcel of the
territories of Australia and Xew Zealand, and we wanted to arrive
at a decision upon it. and found we could not govern the trade on
the oceans outside our own territory, and we decided that aspect of
it should be transferred to this Conference.
Mr. DEAKIX : Does not that involve a consideration of this reso-
lution of 1902, which we had already set down for consideration by
this Conference ? That is to say, is not the main point so far as
we are concerned, or rather, is not our main object to learn the opin-
ion of the Government of the United Kingdom as to the possibility
of dealing with the trade between the Mother Country and its Colo-
nies and Possessions as coastwise trade. The islands of the Pacific
have a particular interest for Xew Zealand and the Commonwealth :
but. of course, they would come under any application of these gen-
eral principles to which by resolution attention was called in 1902.
I presume the question has been considered since, and was just about
to briefly point out the steps by which the Government of the United
Kingdom came to agree to this resolution in 1902. The then Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, at page 1.34. pointed out that if there was
to be a reciprocity arrangement in regard to coastwise trade only
three countries would be affected — Russia, the United States, and
France — because every other country did practically leave its coastal
trade open to British vessels. Russia and the United States are ex-
ceptions, and France is a partial exception. Again he said the ques-
tion might be raised to Russia whether the trade between Great
Britain and her Colonies was not in her sense of the term coastal trade,
on tlie plea that she has made traffic between Odessa on the Black Sea
and Port Arthur coastal trade. Those were two ports in the same ter-
ritory, whereas the T'nited States made Honolulu, Hawaii, and Porto
Rico all islands in the ocean subject to their coastal trade provisions.
Sir Wifrid Laurier then pointed out that all the resolution did was
to call attention to this subject. The resolution was approved. At
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
456
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.}
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
page 1.39 it will be found as it appears ou the agenda paper for this
Conference. There will be found as Appendix 'No. 18 at page 453
— a memorandum by the Board of Trade — which sets out the prac-
tice of the different countries there mentioned in regard to their
coastwise commerce. I will only call attention to the general prin-
ciple adopted by Portugal, which first reserved the whole of its trade
absolutely as coastwise trade, and then opened its ports to foreign
vessels as appeared advisable or in consideration for reciprocal con-
cessions. They started with reserving the whole of the coastal trade,
and then commenced to throw open to everybody certain portions of
it which they did not wish to reserve, and to make reciprocal arrange-
ments with countries that did reserve their coastwise trade. That
seems to be a course which has something to be said in its favour.
At page 456, paragraph 20, of this report, there is a statement in
Annex No. 8. showing the position of coastal trade, which says: "It
'•' will be seen that there is no treaty under which the right to share
" in the coasting trade of all our Colonies and Possessions is granted
" to any foreign country, but a few treaties (mostly with uuim-
" portant countries from a maritime point of view) concede this right
" with respect to our Crown Colonies and certain self-governing
" Colonies which have adhered to those treaties.'' It mentions
Greece, Paraguay, and the Argentine. The Board of Trade Mem-
orandum raises the question as to whether there is a distinction be-
tween what might be called a foreign shipping trade and coasting
trade proper, and then proceeds : "Assuming that any dilficulty of this
"■ kind is surmounted, the treaty position as regards inter-Empire
" trade would appear to be identical with that as regards coasting
" trade. Thus, our treaties with Austria-Hungary, Greece, and cer-
" tain other countries would have to be ' denounced ' before steps
'■' could be taken by legislation in the United Kingdom to reserve the
" trade between the United Kingdom and any of the Colonies. The
" carrying trade between Canada, India, and New South Wales could
" apparently be ' reserved ,' if desired, without breach of any treaty,
" and, generally speaking, the treaty restrictions on the reservation
" of the inter-Colonial trade woiild seem to be less formidable than
" those applying to the Colonial trade with the United Kingdom, al-
'■ ways assuming that inter-Colonial trade could, without breach of
"treaty or fear of retaliation, be assimilated to Colonial coasting
" trade. The restriction of the trade between particular Colonies to
" British vessels would naturally be a matter for Colonial rather than
" Imperial legislation," and the question is raised whether it would
not be possible even under all existing treaties to restrict the trade
between the United Kingdom and aii.v particular Colony to British
vessels " by means of a colonial law, in cases in which the Colony
" passing such a law is not bound by treaty to admit foreign vessels
" to its coasting trade." That suggestion may have rather an impor-
tant bearing upon a subsequent question we ma.v be called upon to
discuss.
Speaking for the Commonwealth, it appears to us that attention
having been invited to this question in 1002, it is possible that in the
future the exercise of some of the powers referred to in that mem-
orandum, or the occasion for their exercise, may arise suddenly.
It would be well therefore to ascertain from the British Government
what has been the result of any further inquiries which have been
made in this direction either as to local powers or practical advan-
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
457
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tages or disadvantages of such reservations. .If that be not a complete
statement we can again re-affirm this resohition, so that further at-
tention will be called to it in the hope of our obtaining some clear
and precise understanding of what our powers are in this connection.
We require knowledge which would guide us in forming an opinion
as to what extent it woidd be judicious for us to exorcise those pow-
ers. For the purpose of bringing this matter to a head, equipping
ourselves for practical solutions when these may be necessary, and
for bringing up to date the very interesting and valuable information
contained in the additions to the Conference of 1902, the resolution
before you is submitted for re-affirmation.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I quite approve for my part.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: This resolution, as Mr. Deakin has said,
is a similar one to that moved by Mr. Sedden at the last Conference.
I want to say what New Zealand did after his return. We intro-
duced legislation affecting the whole coastwise administration, so
as to insure that British ships had to a very large extent the advan-
tage in our country. We did it by the altering, among other things,
of our law as to the payment of wages and the general control of the
ships. We do not allow outside ships to come down to our country
and engage in coastwise trade at all. We have stopped that. We
have done as America did.
Mr. DEAKIN: Do you allow them if they comply with the con-
ditions?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We do not allow an outside ship to trade
on our coast. Since the resolution moved by Mr. Seddon in 1902,
referred to by Mr. Deakin, we in New Zealand have gone in the
direction of it to a very large extent. We have done it for a reason
referred to by IFr. Deakin, because we felt keenly in our country
the extraordinary position of being brought up when our ships get
to Honolulu, and then not allowed to go on to trade with America.
\\'e had to withdraw a steamer for which we were paying a subsidy
for carriage of passengers and mails between New Zealand and Eng-
land via America. After 1902 the effect of this resolution was put
into a statute in our coimtry. and we are carrying it out.
Mr. DEAKIN: Part of it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : A part of it.
Mr. DEAKIN: This is general, and relates to the United King-
dom and the Colonies.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We had a considerable amount of discus-
sion at the Navigation Conference upon the very wide and difficult
subject of controlling ships after leaving England, and before com-
ing into our waters. We came to the conclusion that we could not
interfere in any way whatever. We went on to suggest in the reso-
lution there, which will come np for consideration of the various
Governments later, and I think we all supported it, that such por-
tions of the resolution passed there which either required legislation
in our countries or elsewhere for bringing them into effect the re-
spective Governments should take into consideration, with a view
of giving effect to them. I am in most cordial agreement with Mr.
Deakin in this, and support it very heartily upon the principle that
we do not want to see injustice done to British shipping upon our
coast when we have at least one great competitor, which has put into
Thirteenth
Day,
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
458 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth operation a very extended interpretation of coastwise law, which
Day. does not allow our ships' to engage in trade on the Pacific Ocean from
1907 *^' Honolulu to San Francisco. We are all the more anxious to see
the system, so far as it can be put into operation, generally applied
Coastwise iq guy other portions of the Empire.
(Sir Joseph ^r. LLOYD GEORGE: The only part of the resolution which
Ward.) really comes within the purview of the Imperial Conference is that
which deals with the trade between the Mother Country and its
Colonies and Possessions and between one Colony and Possessions
and another. The question of our coasting trade is a matter entirely
for the British Parliament. Xow I will just put the two or three
considerations which occur to us which tend to make it unadvisable
in my judgment that we should accept this resolution. It looks at
first sight very simple and clear, with nothing but advantage to us,
but on detailed consideration it will be seen to be otherwise.
Mr. DEAKIX : The resolution only says that it is desirable that
the attention of the British Government and the Colonies should be
called to the matter.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: "And to the advisability of refusing
the privileges of coastwise trade."
Mr. DEAKIX: Yes, to call attention to the advisability.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It really means a recommendation, if it
means anything at all, because. .1 take it, our attention has been called
to it by the Imperial Conference in 1902. The suggestion contained
in the resolution would certainly not meet with approval on our part
— namely, that we should close our inter-Imperial trade to the ves-
sels of foreign countries which deny similar privileges to us. I will
give the reasons why I do not think it is advisable that we should,
at any rate at the present moment, challenge these countries on this
particular point. It will be found on detailed consideration that
the matter is not quite so simple as it looks, and that, in fact, these
proposals, framed undoubtedl.v in the interest of British ships and
British trade, involve a great complication of difficulties, which may
well make us pause before we give our assent to them. It is con-
venient, in the first place, to discuss this proposal on its merits, quite
apart from an.v complication introduced by treaty engagements or
the limits of legislative power. The object is either to exclude for-
eign ships from our coasting or inter-ImjK^rial trade, or by the threat
thereof to put pressure on foreign governments to admit British ships
to the corresponding trade in their dominions. In either ease the
object is to benefit British shipping. It could luive no other bene-
ficial result. On the contrary, the exclusion of foreign ships or any
class of them from the right to carry goods between the United King-
dom and a British Colony, or between the Colonies themselves, must,
if effective, tend pro tanio to handicap the bu.vers and sellers of those
goods, by restricting their choice of transport facilities and probabl.v
raising the cost of carriage. The Aiistralian exporter of wool and
meat woidil hardly wish to be restricted to British ships to carry his
goods to the United Kingdom in comi)etition with the Argentine ex-
porter of wool and meat, who could select British or foreign ships as
best suited his purpose, iloreover, if goods can onl.v travel direct
lietween different parts of the Empire in British .ships, while goods
from foreign countries ma.v travel either by British or foreign ships,
n positive advantage is given to trade between the Empire and for-
CnLOXriL roXFEREXCE, 1907
469
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
eig:u couutries as compared with trade within the Empire. If mer-
chandise can be sent from Hamburg to Australia in ships of any
nationality, but from London only in British ships, the result would
hiirdly tend to benefit the port of London in its competition with
Hamburg, or to maintain the entrepot trade of the United King-
dom. I'ldess these disadvantages to the trader are compensated for
in some way, the proposed reservation would ojwrate as a discrimi-
nation adverse to direct trade within the Empire. If, nevertheless,
the proposal is advantageous, it can only be because of the benefit to
be conferred on British shipping. But is this benefit certain? If
confined, as proposed in the resolution, to the exclusion of vessels
of countries which do not give reciprocity, it will produce but little
practical result. The great bulk of the foreign shipping which
actually engages in our inter-Imperial trade is Norwegian or Ger-
man, and neither of these countries exclude us from their coasting
or inter- Iniporial trade. The only countries whose vessels would be
excluded under the resolution are those of Russia and the United
States, whose participation in our inter-Imperial trade is at present
negligible.
!Mr. DEAKIN : Do not the Germans give some special advantages
to the trade with their Colonies?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No.
Mr. DEAKIN: Not as regards shipping?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No. none.
Mr. DEAKIN: They tried to in the ILirshall Islands. They
shut us out and a vessel of ours had to go back twice because they
were not allowed to trade in the Marshall Islands. The question of
compensation for that is now under consideration.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Surely it was iUegal?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That was a question of duties I under-
stand.
Mr. DEAKIN : A question of payment for the privilege of trading
at all, a question of hea%-y duties, and also restrictions as to the cargo
they could obtain. It was a deliberate attempt to throttle trade, which
succeeded to the extent that a vessel was driven back twice at the
cost of many thousands pounds of trade. The Gaptain oflFered to
pay the exceptional fee in order to be permitted to trade, and then
was blockeil again. It is a very strong case indeed.
:Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I know the coasting trade of Germany
is open to us.
Mr. DEAKIX: They have not an.v coasting trade, to begin with,
worth sjjeaking of.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am only dealing with your resolution
whieli does not propose to hit a country which extends the same op-
portunities to us for what they are worth. The trade between Ger-
many and her colonies is just as open to us as to German vessels.
About the Marshall Islands I do not know. I am told that they
have admitted they were wrong in that case and have set it right.
Mr. DEAKIN: But have paid no compensation yet.
ilr. F. R. MOOR: Wliat is the position with regard to French
regulations?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: France reserves its trade to Algeria,
Thirteenth
Da v.
8th Mav,
1907. "
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr. Llo.vd
George.)
160 COLOXIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth which is uot, properly speaking, a colony, because, I believe, it has
8th M representation in the French Parliament. It is treated almost as if
1907. ' it were a French Department.
Coastwise ^^"'^ DEAKIX : They treat all their Colonies nominally as De-
Trade, partments.
^Geoi?"e°I^ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Xot their oversea possessions, such as
Madagascar, Senegal, and Tonquin. There we can trade without
any restriction at all.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: And Pondicherry.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes.
Mr. DEAEIN' : They give tariff advantages to their goods in their
own Colonies, and also subsidies.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is another point. It has hit
French shipping much more than it has hit us. The whole system
has been a ghastly failure, and the result is, that even Germany is
now beating French shipping, although Germany has hardly any
coast and consequently few sailors. France has native sailors, es-
pecially in some parts of her coast, and there is no reason why she
should not be second to us, except for her very protective policy.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not think that policy has anything to do with
it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Of the total tonnage entered and cleared
with cargoes at United Kingdom ports in trade with cur Colonies
and Possessions in 1906, only one-llnr.l per cent. wa.= Russiaili and
none American. So it would hardly hit America.
Mr. DEAKIX : Do you say we Jiavt- no trade in American
ships ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Xon=. O! Ao t'tal tonnage entered and
cleared with cargoes in the LTnited Kingdom in trade with our Colo-
nies and Possessions in 1906, none were American.
Mr. DEAKIN : We have American boats plying on our coast.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : ,1 suppose they buy something from
you. You would not like to turn them out.
Mr. DEAKIX: You said we had none.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: None at the United Kingdom ports.
Mr. DEAKIX : There are some with us.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Limited in this way, the proposal could
confer little practical benefit. If the principle be extende<l further
it is likely to expose our shipping to reprisals. This is what
I want to impress upon the Conference more especially. We have
nearly half the merchant shipping of the world, and it is to our ad-
vantage to keep open every trade to that shipping so far as possible.
If we reserve certain valuable trades to our flag, other countries will
probably follow suit. But they will probably do more than this,
and will look about to find other means of combating or counter-
acting our action either by increased subsidies to tlieir own shipping
or by some other stops, ^foreovcr, it is to be remembered that the
foreign ship which we should exclude from this particular trade will
not be destroyed ; they will continue to trade, and will probably com-
pete for freight more keenly than over in the foreign trade which
is still open to them. This foreign trade largely exceeds the Colo-
coLoyi.iL coxferexcf:. imi
461
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
nial trade in magnitude, and it is quite possible, therefore, that we
might lose at least as much as we gained by excluding these vessels
from our Colonial trade. That is exactly what happens in France.
They exclude us from their coasting trade, with the result that we
enter more keenly into the international trade. This argument refers
chiefly to inter-Imperial Trade. The reservation or opening of the
coasting trade proper of each part of the Empire is (subject to treaty
provisions) a matter for local concern, as I have already pointed out.
The matter may be illustrated by one or two figures. I find that the
total entrances and clearances of British shipping throughout the
world do not fall far short of 250,000.000 tons per annum. The total
tonnage of foreign ships entered and cleared in British inter-Imperial
trade is less than five million tons. This represents the maximum
extension of our shipping trade that might conceivably be brought
about by a scheme of reserving trade to British ships. Owing to the
vastness of our Mercantile Marine in every part of the world the
tonnage exposed to possible reprisals or to increased competition
through subsidies and in other ways would be many times as great.
It is evident that a country so situated must necessarily look upon
proposals such as that made by Australia in a very different light
from that in which they may appear to the point of view of Aus-
tralia, whose foreign-going shipping is relatively very small. As I
have already stated, we have half the merchant shipping of the world.
Looking at the entrances and clearances of ships of various nation-
alities in British and foreign ports, I take, first of all. the United
States of America, which is one of the countries which would be hit
by this resolution, and I note that over 25.000.000 tons of British
shipping entered and cleared in 1905 in the United States ports.
while less than one and a half million tons of American vessels en-
tered and cleared in our ports. There were 15.500.000 tons of British
shipping in French ports compared with .'5.000.000 tons of French
shipping in United Kingdom ports. Take Russia. The British ships
in Russian ports came to 8 J million tons ; the Russian ships in Brit-
ish ports came to IJ million tons. There were nearly 12,000.000
tons of British shipping in Italian ports compared with less than
950,000 tons of Italian shipping in the United Kingdom ports. Even
in the case of Germany, the British shipping at German ports is
in excess of German shipping at British ports — lOJ million tons as
against 8J million tons — but of this 8| million tons of German
shipping, 4 million tons were simply in ballast, while of the lOJ mil-
lion tons of British shipping, 3 million tons were in ballast ; so that.
as far as cargoes were concerned, we were in the proportion of five
to three. These figures have only to be mentioned, for us to see at
once how vulnerable our merchant shipping is. This is not said
to disparage the value of the suggestions for the encouragement of
British shipping, but to illustrate the special difficulties of our
position as compared with that of the Colonies. There are methods
by which the Colonies, or some of them, could give a very direct
impetus to British shipping if they desired to do so — if. for instance,
they were to relax some of their restrictions upon British ships
which desire to enter into the coasting business in Australia, more
especially. As a matter of fact, in the last few years those condi-
tions have been made very onerous ; so onerous that they will drive
British ships out of the Australian trade altogether.
Thirteenth
Dav.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
George.)
iSZ COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth ^jjj. DEAKIX : You are not speaking about what has been done
8th May, in Australia because we have no law yet.
^^^- Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE : I beg your pardon; I mean what is
Coastwise proposed to be done, because Sir William Lyne, at the Navigation
Trade. Conference, said he proposed some extraordinarily stringent regula-
^^k^\}i^°^^ tions. He read them out, and I am sure the effect will be to drive
British shipping almost entirely out of the Australian trade.
Mr. DEAKIN : They were to provide for equality in wages and
conditions of employment.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: Yes, but not merely that; they involved
structural alterations of British ships. They would be prohibitive.
Mr. DEAKIN: Better accommodation for the men?
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: Well, we have done that ourselves, and
are in advance of every country in the world in that respect. If you
superimpose absolutely fresh conditions in Australia, the result will
be that our own conditions will be quite nugatory, and ships which
can enter and do trade in every other part of the world, except
Eussia and the United States of America, will not be allowed to
enter the Australian coastwise trade. In fact, Australia will hit lis
harder than even France in that respect. If Australia wants to help
British shipping, far and away the most effective way would be to
treat us a little more generously in the matter of merchant shipping
legislation. I am bound to say that, because the resolution comes
from Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN: Quite right, and I think there will be every de-
sire to do it. The only question is how far we can do that con-
sistently with maintaining the standard, as we propose it, for our
own shipping owned in Australia, or at all events running entirely
in Australian waters. We shall fix a certain standard which will be,
or believed to be, fair and just, and require them to live up to it.
Having done that, how can we destroy their whole trads to others by
omitting those others from the same obligations?
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: I am not complaining so much about
the vessels which trade exclusively along your coast. I agree there is
a good deal of reason in what you say now, that if you impose these
very heavy regulations iipon your own ships, you have a right to de-
mand that British ships should also conform, otherwise they would
enter into your coastwise trade under conditions which would handi-
cap your own shipping. But take a ease of this sort, take a great
liner proceeding from this country to Australia. She calls, say at
Freinantle; she picks up a couple of passengers who find out that that
particular liner is much more convenient and perhaps more com-
fortable than the boats that may be trading between Frcmantle and
Sydne.v, and they say : "We will go on from Frcmantle to Sydney in
that British ship, which happens to sail at the very time we want to
proceed." According to your new proposals, as interpreted by Sir
AVilliam Lyne, tlie moment a ship picks up even a couple of passen-
gers, every regulation of your coasting trade will apply. She will
have to put on the same number of stewards, the same number of
linnds, as your ships nnist in your coasting trade. Not merely that,
l)ut supposing tliat there is not the same kind of accommodation
which ,vou denmnd on your own ships, the whole structtire of thu big
liner has to be altered, because a couple of passengers are picked
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
463
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
up at Freinantle anil dropped at Sydney, for the convenience of the
Australian people. That, I con.iider, is a far worse sort of regula-
tion that you impose upon us, than anj-thing we have to contend
with in any foreign part of the world.
Mr. DEAKIX: As a matter of fact, the reconunendations of our
own Comuiis.<i()n exempt the voyage from Freniantle to Adelaide,
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Perhaps I have taken the wrong port. I
hear there is something about a railway from Fremantle, and ships
are to be exempt until the railway is made. But take an.v other
port. If a liner calls at any Australian port and picks up a couple
of passengers and drops them at another Australian port — I need not
necessarily take Fremantle — the whole of those obligations which are
most onerous and ruinous to British .ships, will apply, and the result
will be that they will be driven altogether out of the Australian trade.
Mr. DEAKIN: The coastwise trade.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : The only thing we got passed at the Con-
ference after some diificulty, was that the same obligation should be
imposed upon foreign ships. Before you give us preference, you
had better start b.v giving us equality.
Mr. DEAKIN : But do you understand that the Report of the
Commission was to that effect? My recollection is that a distinction
was to be drawn between British and foreign ships.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I am very doubtful how you can impose
this restriction upon foreign ships. International obligations may
prevent you imposing it on foreign ships; and at any rate, .vou should
give us the advantage of international amenities for our own ships.
We ask you to treat us as a foreign nation, at any rate.
Mr. DEAKIX : I think you will find .vour ships much better treat-
ed than foreign ships.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Do not drive us out because we are Bri-
tish. That is all we ask.
Mr. DEAK.IX : You are entitled to ask anything you like, whe-
ther relevant to the actual facts or not. So far as I am aware, the
Reports of the Commission have recommended a distinction between
British and foreign ships. So your suggestions do not fit in with
the facts.
Mr. LLOYD GEpRGE : We were at the Navigation Conference.
We had all the big steamship lines represented. They were exceed-
ingly alarmed b.v this interpretation which was placed upon the pro-
posals, and I do not think it was challenged. We had the labour
people there who are dominant in the situation, and they said, "If
We cannot impose these regulations on foreign ships, we can do it on
British ships at any rate."
Mr. DEAKIX : We had a Commission which sat and reported —
not the Government but only a Commission — and its proposal was, I
think, to give British ships an advantage. It will be ours.
Mr. LLO\D GEORGE: I am very glad to hear this, and I am
glad of this discussion if it has only elicited that, which we failed to
elicit at the Shippin.^ Conference.
Mr. DEAKIX: When you are referring to Australia and ships
being excluded, you mean in every instance from the coastwise trade
and that alone?
Thirteenth
Dav.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
4Si
COLONIAL COyFEREVCE. 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
:SIt. LLOYD GEORGE: No, the instance I gave was that of a
big liner proceeding with a cargo.
Mr. DEAKIX : That is Australian coastwise trade. You pick
it up at one port and drop it at another. The liner also carries
goods from outside Australia and your words might be read to cover
that trade as well.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, I still press that, because it is very
important. Our shipowners asked you, if you wanted to insist
upon these coastwise obligations being imposed on British ships,
that you should confine them at any rate to the cargo that was picked
up. Take for instance, a couple of passengers picked up ; if you
want to impose your own regulations in respect of those two passen-
gers, by all means do it, but if you insist that the whole ship should
be altered and hundreds of other passengers affected by your laws so
that they suddenly find themselves within the coastal regulations be-
cause of picking ujj a minimum cargo of this sort, I must say that
such a requirement is perfectly oppressive. I am glad to have the
opportunity of saying so in the presence of Mr. Deakin who will have
a dominant voice, no doubt, in treating us fairly, or otherwise, when
this Bill comes before the Australian Parliament.
Mr. DEAKIN: May I point out again, that even if your state-
ments were true, it does not in the least meet the point I was taking.
Your complaint only relates to coastwise trade, in this case the car-
riage of the two supposititioiis passengers who are to be picked up in
the Commonwealth and afterwards landed within its borders. That is
the only trade affected. Therefore that is coastwise trade. The qual-
ification that needs to go in, with all ,vour statement as to "Austra-
lian" trade, must be "Australian coastwise trade." The restrictions
if imposed would not affect in the least your trade from any part of
the world to Australia or from Australia to any other part of the
world.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It is not a verbal qualification.
Sir WILFRJD LAITRIER: Is coastwise trade a necessary corol-
lary to British Trade with Australia?
Mr. DEAKIN : No, that is quite separate.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I should have thought it was. I am told
by these great liners that it will make a difference of scores of
thousands of pounds, and they have to run things very near in com-
jmtition with (lermany and other countries now. It is a hard
struggle. It will make a difference of scores of thousands of pounds
to them if they are driven out of this trade.
Mr. DEAKIN: This coastwise trade?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not think it is a purely verbal mat-
ter.
Mr. DEAKIN: But you have used the words "Australian
trade " a nimiber of times, and when you come to look at the report
presented, you will see, that to nuikc your meaning quite clear, it
is necessary to put in the word "coastwise."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No, I still say, what .1 object to, in so far
as I have any right at all- — or ratlier, what I criticise, is not that you
shoidd impose any obligation you like upon British or any other
ships that are exclusively engaged in your coasting trade, but that
COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
purely because these great oversea liners pick up, may be, a ton of
cargo or one or two passengers at one of your ports, and deposit
them at the next, all these very onerous obligations should be im-
posed on the whole ship.
Mr. DEAKIN : Whatever those obligations are, even accepting
your statement, they are only imposed if you engage in coastwise
trade. That is my point^ — the beginning and end of it. They are
not imposed at all if you do not engage in coastwise trade.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : I agree — if you do not carry these pas-
sengers, very well, you can go on. But that trade is precisely what
enables the British liner to deal with Australia at all upon the terms
upon which it is dealing. It could not do it if it were not that it
gets a little trade like that on the coast — an occasional passenger,
or it may be a ton or two of cargo. Naturally passengers in Aus-
tralia prefer going in a big liner of that sort to going in a small
vessel engaged between one port and another. As the result of the
Bill as it stands, which it is proposed to introduce into the Common-
wealth Parliament, the British liner will be driven out of that trade,
and will have to reconsider the whole of its position. When we are
discussing the question of increased facilities and subsidies in order
to improve transport, I would say that a far more effective thing
than subsidies would be to treat these ships fairly in this matter. The
proposed conditions are quite prohibitive.
Mr. DEAKIN: They might be, if we adopt such conditions. It
is, of course, possible to push those conditions to a prohibitive point,
but the Government Bill has not yet been drafted. The only BiU
you have seen is a Bill prepared by a Commission, two of whose
members were associated with my colleague. Sir William Lyne, at
your Conference. The Government has yet to consider its own pro-
posals in that regard. I am at a disadvantage in the unexpected ab-
sence of my colleague who would have taken up the whole of this
question.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : .1 wish he had been here.
Mr. DEAKIN: He has the whole subject at his fingers' ends,
not only because it is his department and not mine, but because he
has been a member of the Imperial Commission here last month
at which this question has been exhaustively discussed, while I have
to go back to our local commission and what it proposed some time
ago. Our Government has proposed nothing.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: Sir William Lyne's attitude was rather
militant against our ships.
Mr. DEAKIN : No doubt Sir William Lyne would make the best
case he could.
Dr. JAMESON: I do not like it used as an argument against
the whole question of preference, but I do hope Australia, in the
person of Mr. Deakin. will consider what 'Mr. Lloyd George has said,
because it is very interesting for the first time to have a preference
asked for by the Imperial Government from a Colony on those
lines.
Mr. DEAKIN: It is very hard to resist that.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: As ,1 put it. before you proceed with
preference, I think you had better start with equality — and we have
not had that yet.
58—30
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
466
COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. DEAKIN: We first start with equality and hope for some-
thing better — preference.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We will found preference on equality.
Mr. DEAKIN : When I have the opportunity of putting the case
to the Commonwealth Parliament in favour of a distinct discrimina-
tion on behalf of British shipping, I shall be able to mention how
you, with tears in your voice, pleaded for preference.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I thought I would take the advantage of
this opportunity of putting this to you.
Mr. DEAKLN : Certainly. I wish I had at hand more detailed
knowledge.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : As regards the United Kingdom, the
interests of British shipping are not thought to be prejudiced by the
very small amount of foreign shipping which enters into our coast-
ing trade. The tonnage of foreign vessels with cargoes in the LTnited
Kingdom coasting trade is less than 1 per cent, of the total — half a
million tons out of a total of 65,(>O0,0TO. Still less are our interests
menaced by the few tons of shipping of the countries which exclude
our ships from their own coasting trade (only one-eighth per cent,
of the total). Apart altogether from the uestion of reservation,
it is clear that the assimilation of our world-wide " inter-Imperial
trade " to mere coasting trade, could not be effected without a con-
siderable departure, not only from our own long-established practice,
but also from the practice of other nations except, perhaps, Russia
and the United States. The term " coasting " voyage, used in its
natural sense, implies a voyage from one port to another in the same
country without the vessel touching for purposes of trade at any
intermediate port not belonging to that country, and if this definition
be accepted as accurate, there would seem to be grave difficulties in
the way of the extension of regulations affecting such voyages, in-
volving, in many cases, calls at intermediate foreign ports.
Mr. DEAKIN : That would apply to the request about the
Pacific Islands being treated as coastwise trade in Australia.
Mr. LLO\D GEORGE: Are you going to bring that before the
Conference ?
Mr. DEAKIN: I understand that was referred from your Con-
ference to us ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I had to rule that out at the Shipping
Conference. Surely, the question of the Pacific is one for the whole
Empire to discuss, because Canada would be just as much inter-
ested as Australia would be in the Pacific. I felt that we could not,
especially in tlie absence of the Canadian representative, discuss the
question of the Pacific.
Passing from general considerations to methods of action, it is
clear that the only method of .-losing the intrr-Imporial trade to
foreign vessels, or any class of them, is by Imperial legislation or
Order in Council. It is needless to say that such a measure would
attract great attention, and probably would be regarded as a sign
of decadence and of fear on our part. Countries which reserve their
trade are influenced by the fact that they cannot compete on equal
terms with British sliii)ping. Every country trying to overtake us
in the race will bo jiroportionately encouraged to greater exertions
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
467
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
by a step suggesting that we cannot hold our own against them on
equal terms.
Lastly, the purely treaty difficulty is not to be lightly set aside.
The magnitude and nature of this difficulty differs much according
to whether the proposed reservation is intended to apply to the inter-
Imperial carrying trade in both directions, or only to the outward
trade from the United Kingdom to the Colonies, and to trade be-
tween the Colonies. If extended to inward trade from the Colonies
to the United Kingdom — as I understand it is — the exclusion of
foreign ships generally would raise questions in connection with a
number of important treaties, some of which it is in the highest
degree to our interest to maintain. If confined to outward trade to
particular Colonies, the question depends upon the treaties which
happen to bind the particular Colonies in question. Of course, if
the exclusion be confined to the countries (United States and Kussia)
which exclude us, there is no treaty obstacle to the reservation of
inter-Imperial trade, but neither does there seem to be any material
advantage in such a course. I am going to put in a memorandum —
I need not trouble the Conference by reading it — as to (i) the par-
ticipation of foreign vessels in our inter-Imperial and coasting trades ;
(ii) the practice of foreign countries with respect to reserving or
opening their inter-Imperial or coasting trades ; and (iii) the treaty
position. It has been circulated.
That is all I have to say.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : This shows the great difficiilty there
is in having a uniform policy for the Empire so far as questions have
been brought up at the Conference. As I understand your remark.
Mr. Lloyd George, the resolution as drafted and submitted by Mr.
Deakin to be re-affirmed, which was pa?sed in 1902, affects only two
nations — Russia and the United States.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That is so.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: You say you have no competition
with the United States in that branch of busimess.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : None.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : And very little with Russia. There-
fore it does not affect you at all.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : But it affects'us tremendously on the
Pacific Ocean. Mr. Deakin, representing Australia, and Sir Joseph
Ward representing New Zealand, and I representing Canada, are
very much hit by it. You have not competition with America but
We have. The competition is very unfair. If the Americans choose
to exclude us from their coasting trade, which is supposed to be
generally a matter pertaining to the shipping of any nation, I do
not think we should have much to say, but the Americans have ex-
tended their coasting law in a manner which seems to be absolutely
unprecedented, if not trespassing upon international law, by extend-
ing coasting law to Honolulu. It places us at a tremendous dis-
advantage that shipping from Australia to iSan Francisco cannot
call at Honolulu. A ship leaving Vancouver for Australia or New
Zealand cannot call at Honolulu. It is a very serious impediment
to our shipping. We have had to submit to it. We could not avoid
it.
58— 30i R— 4
Thirteenth
Day.
Sth May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
468
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tliirteyenth ^^ LLOYD GEORGE : Why ?
8th Mky, Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Because we have had ships which
traded between Australia and the United Kingdom which want to
Coastwise call at Honolulu, and they cannot do it now. There is the difficulty.
(Si^Wfrid ^'- IJ-OYD GEORGE: Have you attempted to legislate at
T,axiritr.) all?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: What legislation can we do? We
can only say : " We will do the same thing to you." We have offered
again and again to reciprocate with the United States in the exchange
of coastwise trade. We have a large coasting trade between Canada
and the United States on the lakes. It would be to their advantage
and our advantage to have coasting trade, because there is so much
shipping on these lakes, and it is getting more and more voluminous
every year, as everyone knows. It is a serious impediment on our
shipping, but the United States have absolutely refused. So far as
that goes they are within their rights, but when they go beyond
their natural rights, and apply those to a country like Honolulu and
to the Philippines also as part of the coast of the United States,
although 1,000 miles away, that is most unfair treatment. At all
events, it seems to me an abuse of the powers of legislation, and
therefore the question is one of great interest to us. I can see the
force of what you now tell us. It would expose us to retaliation and
hurt our shipping, so the question is one that requires very serious
consideration.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But we cannot hit them. That is our
trouble.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : But we can, and we do not want to,
or we would and perhaps we cannot. That is the difference. This
resolution does not go very far. It does not bind you to anything. It
simply asks for further consideration on the subject, and I think
it worth consideration.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: As far as the Mother Country is con-
cerned, we cannot possibly object to what Sir Wilfrid Laurier sug-
gests now, if the resolution is to relate only to the Colonies.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I see the force of your objection,
and you see the force of ours.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I agree; if I were a Canadian I would
hit them if I could.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: We intend to, if we can. We ask
you not to bind yourself to the resolution, but simply to inquire into
the question. The question has never been properly looked into, but
only superficially. It rests on international as well as other law, and
I simply ask that the resolution be re-affirmod for further inquiry
and nothing else. I would not ask the Conference to pledge itself
to any definite action, but T think we are right in asking for the re-
solution to be re-affirmed for the purpose of going deeper into the
subject. The conflict of interests between the British interest and
that of the Dependencies on the Pacific Ocean is one which ought
to be looked into, and I think under such circumstances the resolu-
tion ought to be re-affirmed.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It would be just as reasonable if the
British Government were to lay it down as a principle that Mauritius
was to be looked upon as part of the coast of England, as what
COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907 469
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
America has been doing to us and to England as well in the matter Thirteenth
of Honolulu. We cannot trade between New Zealand and San Fran- . P^'
Cisco with our steamers for the reason that the American law ex- 1907.*^'
tending to Honolulu is, that not a passenger on that island can be
shipped by one of our steamers, and not a ton of cargo. Yet that Coastwise
place is some four days' steam from San Francisco out in the Paci- ,o- y k
fie Ocean. When we submitted a resolution at the Conference over Ward.)
which Mr. Lloyd George presided to discuss the propriety of dealing
with our New Zealand shipping to a number of islands in the Paci-
fic, we are told that we cannot control them and that foreigners and
everybody else can do as they like there. As a general principle, we
do not take exception to that. We want the right to govern our own
ships as to pay and everything; but when we go to a place on the road
to England, under the laws of America, extending thousands of miles
from the coast of the mainland, we are obliged to travel in an Ame-
rican ship only, and not have one of our ships under contract with
them. This resolution, to my mind, is most important. That whole
aspect of it comes under the scope of it and is deserving of great
consideration at the hands of the British Government.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: You want us to consider the question
of refusing to foreign ships the privilege of trading between British
Possessions. It is of no use our considering it. We have considered
it over and over again. We could not hit Russia or the United
States.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I will put a question, but .1 do not sup-
pose you can answer it; it gives the clearest illustration of what has
been done to us. If a law were submitted from our country about
it, it would necessarily require to be held over before the King's
consent could be given. If we were to suggest the imposing of a
law in New Zealand passing on to Australian ports was to be con-
sidered, between Auckland and Sydney, as working in a coastwise
trade and not allowed to ship a passenger or a ton of cargo from
Auckland to Sydney — 1,200 miles — and that trade was confined to
British ships, you would have to hold that law over because it would
be in contravention of what has hitherto prevailed. Yet what we
complain of and made representations about time and again are
in somewhat the same position. A British ship, a P. and O., an
Orient, Union New Zealand line. New Zealand Shipping Company
or Australian vessel, cannnot trade from America, and call at Hono-
lulu, en route to New Zealand and take a passenger or a ton of
cargo for the reason that it is controlled under the American coast-
wise law. There must be some way of reciprocity to prevent it. It
is grossly unjust. It seems to me it is a straining of the idea of what
coastwise trade is to such an extent as almost to make us believe we
are living in the Dark Ages. It has never been done in the world
before, and now, it is extended to the Philippines and we feel it very
keenly.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Did not they seize one vessel on one oc-
casion ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: You might require Imperial legislation
for that. I should not like to express an opinion.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: All this is new to you, I am sure.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Yes.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It shows the necessity of giving it
470 COLONIAL COXFERENGE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth more attention and more study. I am not prepared myself to say
Day. what should be done, but it is a new condition of things which has
1907.*^' developed, and which ought to be looked into, because it is interfer-
ing with us very seriously; and with all due respect to the Ameri-
^Sf^T'^^ cans, for whom we have a great admiration and with whom we are
„. Trr-.f J very friendly, they are intensely selfish in their application of their
Laurier.) law. We want to affirm this resolution for further investigation.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I agree with you on the question of trade
between Canada and New Zealand. I eonfe.ss the facts which you
have given me now. and the facts which Sir Joseph Ward has given,
deserve close attention. I could not pretend that this question of
coasting trade is new to me, and certainly it is not new to the depart-
ment over which I preside, as they have gone into it over and over
again. So far as the Mother Country is concerned, we have gone
. into it very carefull.v. I think it would he misleading if we said
we would consider that question further, as if we had not considered
it. Sir Wilfrid Laurier wants to consider the question of the trade
between one Colony and another.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Between British countries.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If you leave out trade between the
Mother Country and the Colonies, and simply say coastwise trade be-
tween one Colony or British possession and another, that is where
you seem to be hit. We here are not hit at all. The balance of
advantage is enormously on our side. To pretend to look into a
transaction which is so enormously in our own favour as if it were
a grievance would be misleading. I agree that you are very hard
hit as between Canada and New Zealand and Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN : Is it only when you have an immediate grievance
that enquiry is justified or necessary? Ought there not be a certain
amount of protective preparation ? Is not the fact that you are con-
sidering the various devices by which various nations endeavour to
foster their own trade at your exi)ense, a usefid thing to be known?
Should we not show that at all events you are following these things
with close attention. You are not of opinion at present that they
do you any substantial injury, but a proposition may be launched
within the next month or two which would do substantial injury.
Are .vou prejudiced in any wa.v b.v inquir.v? Are you not justified
in letting it be known that your attention has been directed to this
danger by the representatives of the Dominions be.vond the Seas?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But I do not want to alarm the ship-
ping industry here. The balance is pnormousl.v in their favour.
They do not want to call too much attention to it.
Mr. DEAIdN: This resolution has stood since 1902 without oc-
casioning any alarm.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I agree, as between one British posses-
sion and another there is a case; but there is no case to look into so
far as our shipping tr.ide with America is concerned. The advan-
tage is overwhelmingly on one side. The same thing applies to
Russia.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: If this is an Imperial Conference, as
we believe it is, questions have to be looked into, not only from the
point of view of the United Kingdom, but all its Possessions. It
does not afiFect you so far as the United Kingdom is concerned, but
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 471
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
it aSect^ us. We are part of the British Empire, and it seems to Thirteenth
me, therefore, the question brought up justifies more inquiries, with- ofiP m
out at all alarming anybody. We say simply that it is desired to 1907. '
call attention to it.
Coastwise
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE : No, not quite. Trade.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It is desirable that the attention of ^ Llunir')''^
the Government of the United Kingdom and the Colonies should
be called to the present state and to the advisability of refusing
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, really, it would be very misleading.
I am sure you will take it that, on the whole, we are the best judges
of what the eflFect would be upon people here, how they would read
it to-morrow morning, and would say: "They are going to consider
the question of reserving the coasting trades to themselves." We
know the danger of that from the American point of view, where
the balance of advantage is so enormously in our favour at present.
The same thing with regard to Russia. But I do not mind you
saying that you are going to look into the question of the way Am-
erica is treating New Zealand or Australian shipping, because there
you have a distinct grievance, and I think you ought to look into
it. If .1 may say so, and I think the Chairman agrees, it could only
be dealt with by Imperial legislation. Therefore it is for you to
look into it.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: The same applies to the trade from
Japan across to San Francisco, which is carried on by British ships.
They are not allowed to take a passenger from Honolulu to San
Francisco, or a ton of cargo — that is the case with the White Star
Line, and other vessels.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We cannot hit the Americans in our
trade. They are not in our coasting trade at all.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : If you brought down a proposition to-
morrow (which would be a little startling, I admit) to say that the
trade between Ireland and England was coastwise trade, and that
no American ship could take a passenger or a ton of cargo to or from
Ireland either going or coming, you would be putting American ships
in the same position as New Zealand and Australian ships are in
now with regard to trading between them and America via Honolulu
or any of the Hawaiian Islands.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It would be incredible that we should
commit the folly of doing so. We are practically more than half
the whole international trade of the United States of America. For
us to do a thing of that sort would simply mean reprisals. I do not
know how long it would take to carry a Bill through the House of
Representatives and the Senate — I do not think so long as here,
even under the guillotine — but there would be a Bill through in three
weeks, a subsidies Bill, and we should have the trades of the Atlantic
contested in competition which would be just as formidable as the
American comiietition we had to meet in the fifties.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I say at once it would be a very improper
thing to do ; I should be very sorry to see it done ; but that is exactly
what goes on so far as we are concerned in regard to Honolulu.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think Sir Joseph Ward, Sir Wilfrid
Laurier. and !Mr. Deakin have made a great case about that, but
seeing that all the object you have in view is met by confining the
472
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Coastwise
Trade.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190*
resolution to an inquiry as to the trade between one British Colony
and another, I think it would be misleading for us to subscribe to a
resolution which looks really as if we were in favour of the principle
of refusing the privileges of the coasting trade to foreign ships.
Sir WILFErD LAUEIER : You are the best judge of that. Thia
resolution, as Mr. Deakin says, has been in existence for five years,
and it has not disturbed anybody.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It would have a very undesirable effect,
which I assume you would be the last one in the world to bring about,
of practically reversing a proposal carried by a former Conference,
whether generally adhered to or not, is another question. One col-
ony, New Zealand, having introduced legislation to conform to it,
to a large extent, if you refuse to re-affirm it now it looks like going^
back upon the 1902 resolution.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The resolution was passed in 1902 and
the Imperial Government have inquired and made up their minds.
To say at the end of five years that they are going to inquire again,
is rather puerile. You have dealt with the question as the result of
the resolution, and Australia means to deal with it next year. For
us it would be purely childish. We do not mean to deal with it. We
mean to leave it alone. But here is a perfectly new point raised by-
Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and tliere I think we ought to inquire, but so
far as the trade between the Mother Country and the Possessions is
concerned, it would be quite misleading for us to say we had the
slightest intention of dealing with it in the sense of reprisals against
the United States and Russia, who are the only two countries in-
volved. But you are raising a different point, and it would strengthen
the resolution and show we mean business to confine it to that. We
have inquired into the subject and come to the conclusion that we
cannot do anything; but in our judgment something may be done
with regard to inter-Colonial trade.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Would you suggest anything being done
with regard to inter-Colonial trade?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : We are quite willing to look into that
matter. It seems to me that there is a case. Of course it will have
to be done at the request of the Colonial legislatures; but I believe
there would have to be an Imperial Act to take power by Order in
Council to exclude countries not giving fair treatment to Colonial
shipping. It would have to bo an Imperial measure. I suggest
leaving out " between the Mother Country and its Colonies and
Possessions," so that the sentence would read " including trade between
" one Colony or Possession nnd another to countries in which the
" corresponding trade is confined to ships of their own nationality."
That is the real case you have to look into as far as I am aware.
Mr. DEAKIN: I stand by the resolution as it is.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I do not think the alteration would be any
use, with all deference to Mr. Lloyd George; becatise if you look at
the resolution as altered, it means we have to look into the question
as affecting shipping belonging to our own country.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Pardon ine, we arc confined to our own
waters, and we can do that now. We do not want a resolution of the-
Conference to do that.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 473
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, this plodpos us; it is not a pledge by Thirteenth
you merely. I am not trying to get out of the pledge for the Imperial ofi?^'
Government. 1907 '
Dr. JAMESOx^ : It is an inquiry with a view to action being „ T~.
taken betvpeen the Colonies. Trade.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The Imperial Government are to take ^^ward^r"^
action. It would be on the initiative of the Colonies. A Bill in
Australia or New Zealand dealing with trade between the two coun-
tries would not have effect, and it would have to be done through the
Imperial Parliament. This does pledge us to go into the matter.
CHAIRMAN: Can we come to a point of agreement? because
the First Lord of the Admiralty is waiting.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : I think it rests with Mr. Lloyd George.
CHAIRMAN : The resolution was circulated, and it is proposed
to omit the words " between the Mother Country and its Colonies and
" possessions and . . ."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes.
Dr. JAMESON: Is it worth while to cut out this? You say it
has been inquired into, and the Imperial Government will not do
anything. The Imperial Government can never know what circum-
stances may arise and what inquiry may be worth while. It does not
commit the Government to anything. Wliv not leave it as it is?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The word "advisability'' makes all the
difference. On the other hand, if you take that out, it would weaken
the resolution so far as the inter-Colonial trade is concerned.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: As far as we are concerned, I would
have the resolution as it is or not at all. If the British Government
cannot accept it, there is an end to it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is my opinion also.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I do not think we can possibly accept it.
CHAIRMAN: Is that your opinion Sir Robert?
Sir ROBERT BOND : Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN : I vote for the resolution as it is. Resolution
Dr. JAMESON: Yes. ^
Mr. F. R. MOOR: I am guided by my colleagues. We are not
directly interested, but I think those other Colonies know their minds,
and I vote with them.
CHAIRMAN: Have you any opinion to offer, General Botha?
GENERAL BOTHA: No.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: There is no coast trade for the Trans-
vaal. We cannot accept the resolution.
Mr. DEAKIN : We affirm it, and you dissent.
CHAIRMAN: Yes, we dissent.
REVISION OF COMMERCIAL TRE.'iTIES. Revision of
Commercial
Mr. DEAKIN: I presume there is no objection to the next: "That Treaties.
" the Imperial Government be requested to prepare for the informa-
" tion of Colonial Governments, statements showing the privileges
" conferred, and the obligations imposed, on the Colonies by existing
474
COI.OM Xh COXFERENCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Eevisiou of
Commercial
Treaties.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
Resolution
"XI.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
" commercial treaties, and that inquiries be instituted in connection
" with the revision proposed in resolution No. V." You have presented
most of this information.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE. Yes.
ilr. DEAKIN: I presume that will be carried.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER : That is a very proper thing.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Would you mind explaining the last
sentence of it? — "to ascertain how far it is possible to make those
" obligations and benefits uniform throughout the Empire " ?
Mr. DEAKIN : We quite recognise that in many cases there must
be special treaties which will only affect parts of the Empire and not
the whole of it. But surely it is desirable that these differences should
be reduced to a minimum, and that, wherever possible, treaties should
have sway if possible over the whole extent. In many cases they are
relatively immaterial. Minor treaties are proposed to us, and we
say no to them because we have no interest one way or the other;
but if it was represented to us that the Commonwealth was the only
place in the Empire which was not agreeing, no doubt for the sake
of imiformity we should say: "Very well, we will fall in with it."
It does not mean very much, but it clears the way by encouraging
general notion instead of partial action. It is not intended to go
further.
ifr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not see any objection to that.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Nor L
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: What is the meaning of resolution
No. V.
Mr. DEAKIN: It is at the end of the one we have just had:
" That the Imperial Government be requested to take the necessary
'■ steps for the revision of any commercial treaties which prevent pre-
" ferential treatment being accorded to British goods carried in
" British ships." I did not move that at this stage, because I pro-
pose to refer to it very briefly in connection with the question of the
treaties raised by the resolution of the Government of New Zealand.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Will you read it, and move it?
Mr. DEAKIN: I have onl.v moved the resohition lower down:
" That the Imperial Government be requested to prepare for the in-
" formation of Goloiiial Governments, statements showing the privi-
" leges conferred, and the obligations imposed, on the Colonies by
"existing eommeroial treaties, and that inquiries bo instituted in
"connection with the revision proposed in resolution No. V.. to ascer-
" tain how far it is possible to mnke those obligations and benefits
" imiform throughout the Empire."
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: You rof.r in that to resolution No.
V. What is resolution No. V.?
Mr. DEAKIN : That would not stand yet.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Wc had better have that in blank.
.\li-. LLOYD GE0R3E: Yes, that goes out.
Mr. DEAKIN : Take out the words " with the revision proposed in
"Resolution No. V." When that is done I think we should either
bring up the part of resolution No. V. alluded to under the resolution
COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
475
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of the Government of New Zealand, or if Sir Joseph Ward prefers. Thirteenth
I will move it now independently. Day.
8th May,
After further discussion in private, on resuming:
1907.
CHAIRMAN : Lord Tweedmouth is waiting to deal with Naval Revision of
Defence, and this present discussion may last some time. Treaties.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think it would be better to postpone this, (Mr.
and hear Lord Tweedmouth now. Ueakin.)
Mr. DEAiaN: Certainly.
NAVAL DEFENCE.
CHAIRJIAN : I undei-stand that different members of the Con-
ference have had interviews with the Admiralty, and the First Lord
is now prepared to state to the Conference the result of those inter-
views and try to get your decision on the whole subject.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, since we last
met I have had the opportunity of having conversation with various
of the Prime Ministers, and also with their colleagues, and they have
had some conferences with some of my colleagues at the Admiralty
also. I do not know that I have any very definite plan to propose
to you. I can only repeat what I said before, that at the Admiralty
we are most anxious to meet the wishes of the various Colonies. But,
of course, the real dilBculty is that the position varies in the different
Colonies and they have very different wants.
The basis that I thinlc we want to go upon is in the first place to
acknowledge that it is perfectly impossible in modern warfare to
improvise defence; we must have it ready. That is the case with the
army, no doubt ; but it is still more so in any naval operations, be-
cause you require to have the ships, and you require to have the men
and oflScers, who have to undergo a long and severe training.
Now the situation, it seems to me, is this. I will take a colony
separately, or I will take Australia and New Zealand together, because
the agreement with New Zealand and with Australia is a tripartite
one — New Zealand, Australia and ourselves. We all hang together
in the existing agreement, and all are mutually bound. Australia
now gives a sum to the Admiralty of 200.000Z. under certain condi-
tions, and New Zealand gives 40,000/. The Cape Colony gives 50,000?.,
Natal 35,000/., and Newfoundland .0,000/.
As I understand, Australia puts forward a proposal that the agree-
ment of 1902 should be ended, and that Australia should start some-
thing in the way of a local defence force. I do not know how far
New Zealand coiicurs in that suggestion. Sir .Joseph Ward asked for
some information on the subject, and he had some talk at the Ad-
miralty about it. He asked that some information might be given
to him with regard to the cosfof such a local defence, which in effect
was to be founded on the establishment of a force of submarines.
I do not know what is Sir Joseph's view, but I think it is rather im-
portant I should know the exact position he takes up if he adopts the
idea of the possible establishment of a submarine service. I think,
shortly, it may be stated that each submarine would probably cost
about 50,000/. capital expenditure for building, and probably each
submarine might cost about 8,000/. to keep going every year — I mean,
to pay the men and keep in repair, maintain the necessary appliances,
Naval
Defence
476
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Naval
Defence
^Lo^d
Tweed-
mouth.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
and so forth. Then comes a question as to the manning of a sub-
marine, because that is a very important matter. The submarine men
must be very highly trained. I think there would be two ways of
meeting that. One would be by sending the men over to this country
and getting them trained here, and probably the training might be
done in a year. I think it would certainly take a year before the
men would be competent to do the duties required of them in a sub-
marine. Or it might be done in another way. Provided the flotilla
were large enough, we could send a crew, or more than a crew, out to
the Colony which would be able to train men belonging to the particu-
lar Colony in the work they had to do.
Then comes the question of South Africa. There, again, I believe
the idea of submarines is not altogether opposed to the opinion of the
South African representatives, and I believe that the establishment
of a flotilla of submarines by degrees would be favourably considered,
at any rate in Cape Colony; I do not know what Mr. Moor \?ould say
with regard to Natal. As I understand, the South African Colonies
as a whole like to have some definite force of their own, either a sub-
marine flotilla, or help with regard to their naval volunteers at Cape
Town, Port Elizabeth and in Natal. Again we should be very glad
to give some help with regard to that.
I ought to have said first, that so far as concerns the flag under
which the submarines would sail, probably they would fly the white
ensign but with a special mark on the flag — say the Southern Cross
for Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN : We have the TJnion Jack with the Southern Cross
besides.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : That is the sort of proposal to which we
should be prepared to agree supposing that particular plan were
adopted.
I do not think I need say anything with regard to Newfoundland.
I understand that the Newfoundland view is that the present system
should be maintained. The Government of Newfoundland would be
very glad if a greater number of men were added to the Naval Re-
serve in Newfoundland, and they would be ready to give some further
help in addition to the present 3.000L which is paid by Newfound-
land.
Sir EGBERT BOND : Upon precisely the same basis— yes.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : Yes, upon the same basis. With regard
to Canada, I think I may say there has perhaps been some exaggera-
tion in the idea that Canada does not do an.-v'thing for the Empire in
this matter. I think not suflicient account has been taken of tho
work they have done in taking up the protection of fisheries. They
are very anxious to extend that work, and they have now taken over
the dockyards at Halifax and Ksquimalt, which I hope the Dominion
will keep up and improve. I think that is a very considerable contri-
bution towards the general upkeep of our naval interests. There is at
present no proposition from Canada to make any change at all,
but I thinlt it is proposed that matters shall go on very much as they
have gone on, except that the Canadian representatives announce that
they are anxious to do all they can to expand the interest in the
Navy throughout the Dominion, and in that way think that they will
be really giving a great help to the Empire as a whole.
COLOXIAL COXFERENOE, 1907
477
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
I think the important point we have to consider is the present
situation in the various Colonies which already pay subsidies.
Then there is the question of maiming. Of course Australia has
already a considernble number of Naval Keserve men and men who
are in the Navy. There are going to arrive here next week, on the
20th, 30 Australians and 10 New Zealanders, who are going to join
British ships in this country for training. We shall welcome them
very heartily, and I hope that they will gain great good by their
visit and by the training they will receive.
Mr. DEAKIN : The training they are coming for is the higher
training which could not be obtained on the squadron.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Yes. You have now in Australia, I
think, nearly 1,000 men of one sort or another who have been con-
nected with the Navy or who are in the Reserve and so forth. If
Australia prefers to terminate the arrangement with regard to the
subsidy, the burden of those men would naturally fall upon Australia.
That would be one of the things that would have to be provided for
if the subsidy were dropped.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: I think I ought to say with regard to
this question of manning that the number of men necessary for the
British Navy must necessarily be limited. We cannot take in an
unlimited number. At this moment I should think we have at least
six times as many applications for men to enter the Navy as we can
take in. Therefore, whatever arrangement may be come to with re-
gard to manning throughout the Empire, it would have to be under-
stood that it must be limited, because beyond a certain limit we
should not have any use for the men.
Dr. JAMESON : The rank and file — able-bodied seamen — six times
as many as you want?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : I think I am putting it under the mark
rather than over it in saying that.
Then I ought to say a word about the question of cadets. I think
that in the Agreement of 1902 an arrangement was made by which
there should be a certain number of cadets from each Colony. There
were, I think, eight from Australia.
Mr. DEAKIN : You mean cadets coming into the Eoyal Navy to
become officers.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Yea. There were eight for Australia;
two for New Zealand, two for the Cape; one for Natal; and two for
other Colonies; a total of 15. I think the arrangement with regard
to that has not been altogether understood. It has been imagined
that the cadets were to be taken in anyhow. Really it only comes to
this, that there are nominations given to that number of cadets, and
then some of them are examined in Australia. Some come to schools
in England and are examined here. So far as the Colonial cadets
are concerned, I think it is only right for me to say that those who
have been examined out in Australia are found not to be up to the
standard of education which is prevalent amongst the same boys in
England, and a good many have been rejected. I think the idea is
that the number is given without consideration of the qualities of
the boys, whereas in fact a good many boys have been rejected on
examination.
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
478
COLONIAL COyPEREXCE. 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May.
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. DEAKIN: All this is news to me.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Take 1903, for instance. In that year
there were six Australian nominations — three passed and went in.
In 1904 there were again sis boys examined, and three passed into
Osborne. In 1905 Australia sent eight, of whom two passed in. In
1906 five Australian cadets came up, of whom four passed in, and in
this year I think four have come up, and one has passed in and one
has not yet been examined. I do not think the system has been
thoroughly understood. I think the idea has been that the nomina-
tions given were supposed to be absolute cadetships; whereas, they
were only nominations to candidates in order to go through the ex-
aminations, and so enter in the same way as the cadets who enter
here.
Mr. DEAEJN : No complaints have reached me.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: You have had nominations from New
Zealand also.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Yes, from New Zealand in 1903, one
entered and one passed; in 1904 two entered, of whom none passed;
in 1905 two entered and none passed; in 1906 one entered and one
passed; and this year one entered and one passed.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I understand there is a limit to the num-
ber which you are allowed to nominate in any case?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Yes; two from New Zealand in a year,
and they are examined. A special examiner is appointed to examine
them out there; or else they come here, and they are examined in the
ordinary way.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : How many do you allow from each of the
other countries that are allowed to nominate in one year?
Lord TWEED:^I0UTH: Eight for Australia, two for New Zea-
land, two for Cape Colony, and one for Natal ; and the other Colonies
two. Canada was not included in the original agreement, and those
two were left for the Dominion and the other Colonies.
Dr. JAMESON : When does that wholesale ploughing take place —
at the original entry or at any other time ?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : Before they go in at all.
Dr. JAMESON: Simply on general knowledge examination?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Yes.
Mr. F. R. ilOOR : Are the examinations here, or in the Colonies ?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: The rxaminations are held either in the
Colony itself, or some boys come over here and go to school here, and
then afterwards are examined. I ought to say that, as a rule, we have
about three times as many candidates for these examinations as we
can take; that is, about 200 come up, and 70 are taken. I think an
idea has got aboiit that the Colonial Cadets are entitled to come in.
They are only entitled to come in provided they pass tests similar to
those imposed on boys from this country.
Dr. JAMESON : I think it is always acknowledged it is merely
a nomination, and they have to pass. Is the South African black list
as bad as you have just read?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That idea is not prevalent in New Zea-
land. There is no misconception as to the conditions.
CULUMAL VU.\FEREXCE, 1907
479
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Lord TWEED .MOUTH: I am glad to hear that, and that is why
I mentioned it to-day. From the Cape, one entered in 190.3, and one
passed; in 1904, there were two entered, and they were both unsuc-
cessful; in 1905, two went in, and two passed; and in 1906, one
entered, b\it he appeared before the Interview Conmiittee here and
was not rated sufficiently high to be taken.
Dr. JAMESON: That is physically?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: No. In 1907, one has entered but he has
not yet been interviewed.
I do not know that .1 have very much more to add, except to say
that we are anxious to meet you if we possibly can. If Australia
makes up its mind to start something in the way of a local defence
force, we are quite ready to give all the assistance we can to it. If
New Zealand wishes to go nn with the subsidy, again we are quite
ready to arrange for that, or equally willing, if they prefer to go in
for a submarine flotilla, to help in that. The same with regard to the
Cape; we are quite ready to meet their wishes. If they in South
Africa wish to try a submarine flotilla, we are quite ready to help.
Also, in the meantime, I think we should be quite ready to try to
arrange for a training ship for the naval volunteers, and so forth.
But with regard to that, one particular point is that your volunteers
are very desirous in South Africa to become a division of the Royal
Naval Vohmteer Reserve, and thereby obtain the name of "Royal."
That depends, in the first place, on your passing an Act in your local
legislature.
I do not think I could make a definite promise with regard to
leaving a ship continually there. That is a matter for future con-
sideration. Indeed if this is to become part of the charge made on
the subsidy, then I think as time goes on the expenses for a ship
ought to be borne by the Colony as well.
Dr. JAMESON: As time goes on they will do very well for us.
because we all say we ought to give more. In the meantime it will
help with what we do.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: We shall endeavour to carry on the ar-
rangement with regard to a ship at present : hut I would not like to
pledge myself that for all time we should have a ship there. On the
contrary, I think the proper thing would be that the training ship
for your volunteers should be part of the Colonial force.
Dr. JAMESON: Out of the contribution?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH : Yes ; I think that is all I can say. If any
of the Prime Ministers would now say what they think, if I can meet
them in any way, I shall be very glad.
Mr. DEAKIN : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, as Lord Tweedmouth
mentioned Australia first, perhaps I may be permitted to say that the
Commonwealth will recognise the extreme fairness and generosity
with which he has met us. In conceding perfect freedom, notwith-
standing the existing of an obligation which has yet several years to
run, .vou have shi;>wn that in every possible manner .vou desire to
keep in close accord with the feelings of the outer Dominions. In
Australia, for reasons whieh have already been put on record in the
despatch whieh I had the honour of addressing to the Admiralty
about two years ago, the existing contribution has not proved gen-
erally popular. It was passed because it was felt that some distinct
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
480
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
recognition of our responsibility for the defence of our own country
and of the Empire of which it is a part, was necessary, and though
it did not take the form which commended itself most to the very-
large minority, possibly even a majority, of the electors we accepted
that mode of co-operation until some better presented itself, further
consideration has convinced the public that the present agreement is
not satisfactory either to the Admiralty, the political or professional
Lords of the Admiralty, or to the Parliament of the Commonwealth.
In your case you find yourselves to a certain degree shackled even by
the very general restriction as to the station of the fleet which is im-
posed by the present agreement. Originally, under the Agreement of
1887, the Australian fleet was limited to Australian waters. When
that agreement expired, another agreement was entered into by which
a fleet or squadron of increased strength was provided, and its sphere
of action enlarged to the China and Indian seas. As a consequence,
it appeared to many in Australia that the local protection which was
its primary condition was so far departed from that it had practically
ceased to exist. Nor could this new development of policy be ehai-
lenged because all expert opinion agrees that the proper place for
a defensive force is where it can deliver the best blows at any offen-
sive force directed against it. It was quite probable that this would
not be immediately on the coast of Australia, but rather in the Indian
Ocean, or on the eastwards towards the China seas. It is as much
in the interest of the Commonwealth as of the Navy that whatever
power it can bring to bear should be available wherever the enemy
is to be found in force, but this meant the withdrawal from our coast
of ships to which we have been accustomed to look for localised pro-
tection, and also for the world-wide operations of the British Navy.
Their withdrawal brought more home to the public particularly of
our great States on the seaboard the nature of the risks to which they
must be exposed in the absence of the squadron. Practically every
capital, with perhaps the single exception of Perth, is upon the sea;
Sydney, Adelaide, and Hobart. are all easily approachable from the
sea . In the case of Melbourne, Port Phillip heads, and the forts there
could, if effective, keep an attacking force at a distance. Yet, sup-
posing the heads to be passed, Melbourne, too, would lie directly open
to any attacks. Brisbane runs a somewhat similar risk. The Com-
mittee of Imperial Defence, after giving this question full considera-
tion, have decided that a regular attacking force is not to be antici-
pated in our Antipodean situation, under any circumstances that it
is necessary to directly provide for in advance. They look forward
to the possibilities of a raid, consisting in all lilvelihood of some four
fast half-armoured or partly armoured cruisers, carrying forces of
from .'iOO to, at the outside, 1,000 men. Even an expedition of those
small dimensions, calling for a very considerable provision in the
way of fuel and other arangenients. would make only a transitory
dash for our ports and shipping rather than a series of prolonged
attacks. But, whatever the nature of the assault is to be, its possibi-
lity leaves the large population of our seaboard States with a sense
of insecurity, emphasised by the probability of the withdrawal of the
squadron some thousands of miles away to deal with the expected
enemy there. Cons'^queiitly, the demand for some harbour and coast
defence has been pressed iipon the minds of the pcojilo in general,
and has been lately several times considered by Parliament. It is
thought that while it may be the best possible naval strategy to with-
draw the squadron to nmote portions of the seas surrounding Aus-
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
481
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tralia, the contingency of our being raided, even by a few cruisers,
and of our commerce being driven into the harbours or destroyed,
or enclosed in the harbours, is not one that a community ought to
contemplate unmoved. Hence our desire for the local protection to
which you have already alluded. Our proposal to replace the existing
agreement by the establishment of a force in Australian waters is
not due to motives of economy. On the contrary mough it will in-
voke a greater expenditure upon maritime defence than we have ever
undertaken I believe that those proposals will be willingly accepted
by Parliament. Of course we shall require to proceed by degrees,
but even then the expenditure proposed will exceed the payment now
made to the admiralty, plus the payments that have been made for
several years past upon such naval defences as we have retained. At
all events, the present temper of the electors encourages me to believe
that in the course of a few years we shall see, in proportion to our
population, a fairly effective harbour defence, which may be extended,
if our means permit, to some approach towards coast patrol. I do
not say coast defence, because that would imply a size and character
of ship which our finances, I fear, will hardly be able to afford for a
long time to come.
In regard to the very judicious remarks you have made with refer-
ence to the question of manning, for my own part, I quite realise
the wisdom of associating any local force which we may develop in
the closest possible manner with the Navy. Of the efficiency of the
Navy and the quality of its officers and men we have, from personal
experience, in times of peace it is true, but still from prolonged ex-
perience, the highest possible opinion. Every confidence is felt in
Australia both in British ships and British sailors, and no doubt is
entertained of their capacity to give the best possible account of
themselves when the time of trial actually arrives. But we also re-
cognise that the Navy as a fighting machine is only kept in its con-
dition of efficiency by the constant maintenance, even in the lowest
ranks of the Service, of the highest state of training. We appreciate
the discipline and training which our men have received in the
squadron, and anticipate in the future that, by similar means, by
association with the Navy, we shall be assisted to keep our local
vessels, whatever they may be, up to its high standard. We shall
not be willing in any way to accept for ourselves any less degree of
proficiency than that which His ^Majesty's Navy enjoys, and by which
its reputation has been established. A force, small as ours must be,
would enjoy few, if any, opportunities of advancement for officers
and men if it were a completely isolated service. On the contrary,
it has everything to gain by being kept in the closest possible touch
with the Navy, and with all advances as they are being made in Natal
tactics or training. If, therefore, our partner. New Zealand, is able
to devise what would be to them a satisfactory scheme of local de-
fence, or make some amended agreement with yourselves, I believe
the Parliament of the Commonwealth would desire to terminate the
present agreement, to set. free the ships of the squadron from any
obligations at present imposed, and to devote our funds to the pro-
vision of a local force. The agreement, as you properly observed, is
tripartite, and requires the consent of New Zealand as well as that
which you have given. I quite recognise that. I have made no appeal
to my friend. Sir Joseph Ward, either in public or in private on this
head, because I felt it was a matter which he required to consider in-
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SS— 31
COLONIAL COyFERETfCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth dependently. As he knows, I have made him no suggestion on thia
Day.
8th Mar,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakiu.)
topic of any kind whatever. But I say it will be a source of grati-
fication to us if this Parliament terminates this agreement in order
to follow, so far as New Zealand is concerned, whatever course it may
think best. For our part, Lord Tweedmouth, your overture will be
made known in the Commonwealth. Tour words of counsel and ap-
proval will be very highly esteemed. We recognise this as a further
step in the exercise of our self-governing powers with which are pro-
perly attached the responsibilities which can never be dissociated from
them. Those responsibilities we have no desire to avoid; on the con-
trary we shall assume them with confidence in ourselves and in our
cause providing, so far as our means and population permit, a de-
fence of the harbours of Australia, which will be an Imperial defence;
it will not be the shipping owned in Australia alone that will enjoy
the protection of our ships and forts ; it will not be commerce especial-
ly Australian that will be protected by this harbour defence; but of
course the same protection will be secured by these means for all
British shipping and cargoes. The necessary supplies, the necessary
coal, either for the mercantile marine or for your vessels of war, will
there be under safe shelter and always at hand. All the stores re-
quired to maintain the Naval force while it is in our waters would
be safe in time of war. These, I take it, are no mean steps towards
the protection of that portion of the Empire not merely for its own
needs, but affording a Naval base for all operations which may need
to be conducted in those seas. That ought not to be under-valued.
Every development of Naval force in Australia is a development of
the Naval forces of the Empire. It will be capable of being utilised
for defence and also in connection at any time with your squadron
in our waters for offence also. Of course even if the agreement be
terminated, the visits of the squadron to our seas will not cease. They
will be paid in ordinary course. I also understand that as at pre-
sent the Navy will, for its own sake and in recognition of our com-
mon interests, obtain the largest portion of its supplies from Austra-
lia and New Zealand ; that is to say, whatever supplies can be obtained
on the spot ; that we shall have the opportunity of seeing in our ports
the ships of this powerful united fleet that will be composed of the
three squadrons of Australia, India, and China. That is very neces-
sary as maintaining a link of Empire of a very real character, which
makes an extremely strong appeal to the patriotism of our people.
The Navy is immensely popular. The British Army we do not see
except in our own militia. The Imperial Navy represents the great
guarantee of its existence as well as a guarantee of our liberties and
constitutional privileges. The Navy is an extremely popular Service,
and, realising that, we are sure the Admiralty will not fail to allow
us the opporttinity from time to time of seeing the splendidly manned
and equipped vessels which have made the British flag paramount in
all seas.
I could not pass by a speech so extremely gratifying to Australian
sentiments as your own without this notice. I do not for one moment
pretend to have adequately dealt with it.
Let me say in conclusion, that, of course, we look upon any vessels
for local defence not only ns Imperial in the sense of protecting Aus-
tralia, biit because they will be capable of co-operating with nn,v
squadron, or an,v part of your squadron, which you may think fit to
send into our waters to meet any direct attach in proximity to our
coasts. In that way, we ought to be able, with the type of vessel we
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
483
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
shall have, when associated with your larger ships, to render extremely
effective assistance. And so far from the termination of this agree-
ment in any way concluding our close and intimate relationship with
the Imperial Navy and Naval Defence, I hope it will be the means
of enabling us to extend Naval development, in very efficient forms,
in our own seas, making it of such a character as to be of material
assistance if ever a foe to the flag should find its way into our watrri.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Lord Elgin and Gentlemen, I would like
to try and make the position, as far as New Zealand is concerned,
quite clear in connection with this matter. The remarks I made on
a fonner occasion — which I do not propc>se to refer to at any length
again — I adhere to in every respect. That is. in brief, that in a de-
veloping country of the size of New Zealand, about the size of Great
Britain and Ireland, and a comparatively young country, we cannot
undertake the possible future obligations entailed in the making for
the provision of anything in the shape of a local navy. We believe
it is of great consequence to the future development of New Zealand
with its enormous potentialities for the settlement of people, that the
necessity of maintaining that development must, in view of the
financial obligations involved in providing a local navy, take prece-
dence with the Government of that country in the interests of the
people of that countrj-. I adhere absolutely to what I stated before
in that respect. New Zealand has made no request of any kind for
an alteration of the existing agreement, and I readily acquiesce in
the suggestion made by the First Lord of the Admiralty that New
Zealand in relation to the Mother Country will of necessity require
to continue by direct subsidy or an increased subsidy which we are
quite willing to give for a continued attachment to the Navy proper
which we consider is so important to us.
I have had the opportunity, owing to the courtesy of the First
Lord of the Admiralty of discussing matters with him since we last
met, and I asked for some information to be furnished to me regard-
ing submarines. This I received late last night, and only had an op-
portunity of looking at it since I arrived at the Conference this
morning. I have read the statement this morning with considerable
interest. It goes withovit saying that I am not prepared — in fact I
mentioned it to Lord Tweedmouth when speaking to him — to commit
the Colony of New Zealand to any departure in the way of a sug-
gested submarine service without having had the opportunity of con-
ferring with my colleagues and, in turn, any great departure if we
contemplated making it, we would require to submit to our Parlia-
ment and have the ratification of our Parliament upon before assent
by me at this Conference could be by any means directly or indirectly
implied. I should be only too glad, however, to have the aspect of it
placed before me, and when I have had an opportunity of discussing,
placed before my colleagues with a view to our considering whether
the suggestion of a submarine service, pure and simple, without the
attendant surroundings of a local navy, as an alternative to an in-
creased subsidy, could then be taken up by New Zealand as a part
of the great organisation of the defence of the Empire as a whole,
and that portion of which is New Zealand especially.
I want to make the position clear so that the Admiralty, who are
no doubt better posted upon these matters than I am. may know. We
have 14 towns on the sea coast. The majority of them are very im-
portant towns. There is not one of them that is more than 9 miles
58—31*
Thirteenth
Day.
Sth Mav,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
484 COLOyiAL COyPEREXCE, 190-,
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth at the outside from the oceau or to the port unless it be the city of
Day. Dunediu, which to the ocean itself, irrespective of the means of in-
^^1907*^' ='"®ss and egress that ships have to take, is only five or six
miles away from the Pacific. Though Lord Tweedmouth has not to
Naval me personally, or at the Conference, given any lead or indication as
e ence. ^^ ^hat the Admiralty favours — whether it is the organisation of a
Ward.) local submarine service, and the responsibility being taken upon the
shoulders of Australia and New Zeahmd — I have had no indication
personally whether that method of dealing with the Colonies is more
acceptable to the Admiralty than the continuation from the New Zea-
land point of view of a subsidy. I wish to add that from my point
of view it would be of considerable importance for us to know what
the Admiralty itself favours. If the Admiralty were to say to New
Zealand that they believed that as a matter of defence of that portion
of the Empire that the system we have been party to for so many
years, has as the result of changes in the scientific development of
these submarines, become to some extent obsolete, or not so valuable,
and make the suggestion of a submarine force that would weigh con-
siderably with the Government and the people in arriving at a deci-
sion as to the best course to follow in future. I think myself that
the opinion of the Admiralty would be valuable. I recognise Lord
Tweedmouth has taken a completely impartial stand, and allowed it
to be at the voluntary action of the Colonies themselves to elect
whether they go in for the subsidy or the submarine defence. In that
respect, if I may be allowed to say so. it is particularly fair for the
Colonies, and will be appreciated by New Zealand to be allowed from
the standard of self-government to do as we think proper. We would
like to have the opportunity of ascertaining what is the preference
of the Admiralty in this suggested system of local defence for Aus-
tralia as against the one for New Zealand for the continuation of a
subsidy.
Mr. Deakin has already, for his country, said Lord Tweedmouth
has acted with a generous consideration for the views put forth by
Australia, having assented to their proposal by stating he was pro-
pared to agree to whichever course they desired. That brings up the
question of the position of New Zealand as one of the contributors
to the agreement, whether we are going to hold Great Britain and
Australia to that agreement, or set them free to do at an early date
what they think is essential and proper for them. I can only say at
once I am perfectly certain both my colleagues and the Parliament
of my country, if the First Lord of the Admiralty, who is responsible
for the general government of the sea defences of the Empire itself,
is willing to meet Australia in that respect, we would not adopt a
dog-iu-the-mangor policy, but I think would favourably consider the
cancclment of the agreement, and with a view of allowing Australia
to have a free hand with the Admiralty, and New Zealand also, on
its own line, to have a free hand to carry out what it considers is best
for our particular circumstance^, in order to make the position easy
of settlement, as between the Admiralty and the Commonwealth of
Australia, I shall be only too glad to reoommcnd it to my coUoagui's.
and to recommend it to my Parliament. In any case it woidd take
some little time to give effoot to the change that Australia wants from
that point of view, and long before any inconvenience could arise
no doubt the Parliament of our country would give expression to
what I am now voicing here as its representative. New Zealand a.s a
country has been desirous of giving upon the basis of the contribution
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, ISO! 485
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of Australia its fair proportion. The six States of Australia gave Thirteenth
an average of a little over 3.3,000/. eath, and originally as tixed tho ^^ay-
contribution of a colony like New Zealand was fairly proportionate ^"jgo:*^'
to the individual contributions of the States of the great Common- -
wealth of Australia, and we paid over 40,000/. a year. I am quite r^f^^^
certain New Zealand, if required to, under altered proposals that may i^^j^ Tose I
be suggested, with a view to cementing the defence of the Empire as Ward.)
a whole, would be willing to increase its contribution.
I thanlv Lord Tweedmouth for the information he has furnished
to me. I am exceedingly obliged to the Admiralty. The whole matter
will receive the fullest consideration of my colleagues and myself at
the earliest possible date.
Dr. SMARTT : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I am extremely obliged
to Lord Tweedmouth for the statement he has made (a statement
which I think will be welcomed by the people in Cape Colony, and
certainly by the Natal Volunteer,^) that he has kindly consented to
agree to meet tho request that on the passage of the Bill submitted
to the Admiralty the title " Royal " should be attached to them.
I think, on the first meeting we had with the First Lord of the
Admiraltj', he stated it was the intention of the Admiralty, as far
as possible, to deal with each Colony on the lines of the particular
circumstances appertaining to that Colony. I think the statement
that he has made to-day shows tho earnest intention of the Admiralty
to try and move forward in that direction.
So far as the Cape is concerned, I take it Lord Tweedmouth's
statement for the Admiralty is first, that on the passage of the Bill
which has been submitted to the Admiralty, the Naval Volunteers
will he able to style themselves Royal Naval Volunteers; secondly,
the Admiralty will, pending further arrangements, place at the dis-
posal of the Naval Volunteers a ship, most probably the " Odin,"
with her guns, on which our volunteers, as well as those of the sister
Colony of Natal, can get as thorough a sea-going training as possible.
In the meantime, the cost of the nucleus crew for that ship, whatever
crew the Admiralty consider necessary to enable her to go to sea,
would be defrayed out of the joint contribution now given by the
Cape and Natal to the Admiralty. I presume I would be in order,
after your statement, in allowing the volunteers in Cape Colony to
know that on the passing of this Bill, this will come into effect?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Quite so.
Dr. SMARTT : I can assure you that will be most satisfactory and
will give a great fillip to the Naval Volunteer movement in the Cape.
Lord TWEEDilOUTH : We think in the end that the vessel ought
to be a Colonial one.
Dr. SMARTT: Yes. Further, I take it that the proposition the
Admiralty make is that they would encourage the spirit of local de-
fence and local assistance for naval purposes, and that the best direc-
tion in which that could take effect would be either in the direction
of submarines, or I suppose the Admiralty would also be prepared to
consider the question of destroyers.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Certainly.
Dr. SMARTT : I should take it that the submarine is a ship that
only employs a small number of the most highly trained experts ?
Lord TWEEDifOUTH: That is so.
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Dar.
8th Moy,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Lord
Tweed-
mouth.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Dr. SMARTT : She is not a vessel that will go far out to sea,
wheivns in the establishment of the destroyer class, you would at once
imbuo your people with the spirit of seamanship and the idea that
they were rendering greater service, because they could go some little
distance out to sea, and that would be a great incentive to develop-
ing a naval spirit amongst our people.
Lord TWEEDMOTJTH: I thinly the development of submarines is
going to be such in the future as almost to supersede the destroyer;
that it will have a much larger sea range, and it will be not merely a
defensive vessel, but a very distinctly offensive one.
Dr. SMAETT: But, in the meantime, the Admiralty would be
quite prepared to consider, if the Cape desires to accept further obli-
gations, whether it should take the shape of submarines or destroyers?
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Tes, either or both.
Dr. SMARTT : Should that position be taken up. the grant which
is now paid to the Navy, and any further amount that might be neces-
sary, would be devoted to this purpose instead of being paid to the
Admiralty as at the present moment. That is a point I want to be
very clear upon. The Cape and Natal are giving 85,000?. A small
portion of that will be used to provide a nucleus crew to the " Odin,"
so as always to be able to go to sea for the purpose of training our
Naval Volunteers along the coast. Then, if we establish submarines
or destroyers, I understand that it is the intention of the Admiralty
that the balance of the 85,000?. should be devoted to that purpose, plus
any extra amount of money that may be voted b,v the Colon.y in order
to establish a service of that sort. I at once acknowledge that the
contribution on behalf of the Cape is not at all adequate to the ser-
vices which the Nav.v renders to our defences, and I have no doubt
that when the federation General Botha spoke of the other day takes
place, as the ports of Cape Colony and Natal will be equally the ports
of the Transvaal, both the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony
will also recognise their obligations to contribute towards a defence
scheme of that sort. Therefore, I do not see an.y difficult.v in the
future, with the assistance of the Admiralty, in working up a con-
siderable defence of this character. I presume then the Admiralt.v
would place at our disposal before we return to the Cape — or if not
before, as soon after as possible — the necessar.v information, as to the
cost of establishing a submarine or destroyer force, i.e., the cost of
the ship, whether it be a submarine or destroyer, and the cost and
number of the erew necessar.v for upkeep, so that we could see in what
direction we would have to work.
I do not wisli to take up the time of the Conference, but I would
like to ask Lord Tweedmoutb whether he has inquired iiito a state-
ment I made some few days ago with regard to the Naval docks at
Simonstown, in which I stated I had been informed that as the docks
are now being constructed under heav.v south-sea gales, it would be
impossible or dangerous for a ship to enter those docks until the gale
abated. You were good enough to say ,voii would inquire whether that
was correct or not, with a view, if m,v information is correct, of
having something done to expend the necessary extra 60,000?. or 70,-
OiiO/.to rectify it.
There wore some other mntlers relating to shore tlefence, but I do
not know whether they ought to be discussed here or privately with
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
487
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the Admiralty or with tlie War Office. There is the matter of the
manning of our defences.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: That is a War Office matter.
Dr. SMARTT : It would be better discussed with the War Office
or Admiralty privately, there being a mutual arrangement between
the Cape and the War Office iu connection therewith.
Mr. F. E. MOOR: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I follow on the
lines of the Cape. Our i)ropi>sal now — and I think the two Govern-
ments are in accord — is that we should work together as regards this
training ship which shall be available for our common cause, and to
give our men the necessary training at sea. The expense of this is
to come out of our mutual contributions and then the question of the
submarines is to be taken up hereafter as to the cost and as to any
increased expenditure in regnrd to maintaining these craft at our
different harbours.
I am prepared to join with my colleague from the Cape in further-
ing the objects we mutually have in view, and I trust before we leave,
the Admiralty will be able to give us a definite answer to what we
are placing before them, so that we shall be able to go back to South
Africa and explain to our people what the terms of the provisional
agreement are. We are going to meet our Parliaments in a month
or two, and I think it would be very advantageous both to my Parlia-
ment and to the Cape Parliament that we should have the proposals
definitely settled before we leave England.
I have nothing more to say, and I trust the lines suggested will
be beneficial to our Colony and the Navy generally.
Mr. BRODEUR: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I have nothing to
say except to thank heartily Lord Tweedmouth for having been good
enough to recognise what Canada has been doing in regard to its
defence. As I mentioned the last time we discussed this question
at the Conference, I think the situation of Canada has not been pro-
perly represented. I am very glad to see Lord Tweedmouth has
actually acknowledged and recognised that we have been doing a
great deal, and are still doing a great deal, by taking over the Naval
Stations at Esquimalt and Halifax.
There was a discussion iu previous years to the effect that we
should contribute something directly to the British Navy. I may
say with regard to that, there is only one mind in Canada on that
question, and if it was necessary I should be able to quote the re-
marks made lately in an article published by Sir Charles Tupper,
who is certainly one of the men best qualified to speak in Canada,
upon the question. I think, perhaps, I might mention what he said
in regard to that. He said: "It is known that from the outset I
" have felt the interests of Canada and the true interests of the Em-
" pire to be opposed to the demand for Colonial contributions to the
" Imperial Navy," and "I miintain that Canada has discharged that
" duty in the manner most conducive to Imperial interests." So
it shows that both sides of politics in Canada agree with the policy
which has been going on for some years there. He adds, also, in
that article, that " Canada protects her fisheries by her own cruisers,
" and when the Imperial Government expressed a wish to be relieved
" of the expense of maintaining the strategic points at the harbours
" of Halifax and Esquimalt the Canadian Government at once re-
"lieved them of that lar^e expenditure, amounting to 185,000Z. per
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Kaval
Defence.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
488
COLOSIAL COSFERENCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th Mav,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Mr.
Brodenr.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
" annum."' Negotiations are now going on for taking over the Naval
stations there. I do not know exactly what will be the amount by
which the Admiralty will be relieved, but I think it is a somewhat
large amount.
Since the matter has been brought before this Conference I may
say that Parliament has voted a large sum of money for the purpose
of purchasing another cruiser and putting that cruiser on the Pacific
coast for the protection of our fisheries.
We are very glad to see that Lord Tweedmouth has recognised that
in this matter it should be left almost entirely to the Colonies. I
may say, in conclusion, that we will be very glad to work in co-
operation with the Imperial authorities, and under the advice of an
Imperial officer, so far as it is consistent with self-government.
Sir KOBERT BOND: I have nothing to add to what I have
already said in the matter.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I would like to ask Lora Tweedmouth a
question in connection with the Australian proposals. It is not in-
tended, I presume, to remove the present squadron, or any large pro-
portion of that squadron, until, if we can make a new arrangement, '
our coastal defence is fairly complete.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: There is no intention of moving the
squadron as it at present exists until a new arrangement is arrived
at. I think the discussion that has taken place here to-day shows
very clearly what was said by Mr. Moor, that it is impossible to come
to any final decision with regard to these proposals we have been
talking about, and on which, I think, we are very largely agreed,
until reference is actually made to the Parliaments of the various
Colonies, because they must decide in the first instance as to whether
they will take the line of going on with the subsidy, or supplement
the subsidy by certain local defence arrangements, or adopt a system
of local defence instead of the subsidy altogether.
Sir Joseph Ward asked what is the opinion of the Admiralty with
regard to the comparative merits of submarine local defence, and
subsidy. That, I think, is a question upon which we at the Admir-
alty cannot pretend to adjudicate. We say, if the Colonies decide
on a system of local defence, we think submarines would he the most
useful way of beginning it, and that Colonies would find that a
submarine flotilla would be the best way from their point of view
and from a strategical point of view of defending the coast, to begin
with, at any rate. They might afterwards develop the destroyer,
and so forth; but to begin with the submarine would be the best plan
that could be adopted in o\erybody"s intei-ests.
We do not refuse the subsidy plan, and I do not think it would
come well from us to say that we insist that the subsidies should be
dropped. That, I think, is a matter for the Colonies themselves.
So far as we are concerned, the subsidy is a very convenient way of
receiving help from the Colonies ; but we quite recognise that it is a
question for the Colonies themselves ns to how far it is to be subsidy
and how far it is to be looal defence. What we really desire is that
we should have the cordial help of the Colonies, and that in the most
effective way in the first place, and in the second place, in a way most
acceptable to the Colonies.
Dr. ."5ir.\RTT: So that if the Colonies were prepared to accept a
scheme which met with tho approval of the .Admiralty, to improve
COLOXJAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
489
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
their local defence in such manner as not alone would it assist them
but also the British Navy in time of emergency, they would have
the approval of the Admiralty to devoting the subsidies that they
now pay to the general fund, to this purpose, and still more have the
approval of the Admiralty if they increased the amoiint of money
to be devoted to these services. So long as we feel assured that that
is the desire of the Admiralty, I am extremely anxious, so far as
South Africa is concerned, to move forward in that direction.
Lord TWEEDMOTJTH : We shall be willing to take in kind what
has been paid in the past in hard cash.
Dr. SMAJRTT : And as times improve, we should be prepared to
increase the amount devoted to the^e serv-ices. That is why I was
anxious to know whether, so far as the Cai)e and Natal are concerned,
the Admiralty would give us some suggestions as to the cost of
building up either the submarines or destroyers — that is, the cost
of the ship on the one hand, and the cost of the men on the other.
We understand, in the case of a submarine, that we could not sup-
plement her crew by the volunteers, because in that case you want
really trained experts.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: I have here a statement which I had
made out for Sir Joseph Ward with regard to the cost of a sub-
marine. Will you take that copy and share it with Mr. Moor? I
gave a copy to Mr. Deakin. That gives, I think, a very )?ood and
short summary of what the cost of a submarine would be. You
also would like something on the same lines as to a destroyer?
Dr. SMARTT: Yes. I would like even further than that some
small scheme prepared by the Admiralty to put before the Cape and
say: That is a scheme you can work up to whenever you can find
the money. I want it as an incentive to the people to see what they
are going to work up to, and to allow them to know what it will cost
them.
Lord TWEEDMOUTH: That we shaU be glad to give. Dr.
Smartt spoke about the Naval dock at Simonstown the other day,
and the matter was referred to the Hydrographer. I have not got his
report yet, but I will get it.
Dr. SMARTT : So long as I know you are really considering the
matter I am satisfied, because it is a matter of considerable import-
ance to the Cape, and to the Empire.
Lord TWEEDilOUTH: Yes, it has been referred to the Hydro-
grapher for report already. I do not think I have anything else to
add. I do not think we can pass a resolution now. We must have
the answers from the various Parliaments before we can come to a
definite conclusion.
CHAIRMAN: I find that at the last Conference there was no
definite resolution on the subject, but only discussions on proposals
put forwards, which were taken for consideration, and that is our
position now.
Dr. SMARTT : I should think perhaps, if you would not mind
letting that wait over until the Conference is again up to its fuH
strength, the Conference may be able to affirm the advisability of the
various Dependencies of the Empire recognising their obligations,
and insisting on doing anything they can to assist the Navy. If
Thirteenth
Day.
Sth May,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
490
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE, 190^
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Kaval
Defence.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
we do not close it now it can be put in some form before the Con-
ference. The Admiralty might draft a resolution of that character.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Apart from what the Conference say to-day,
Xatal and the Cape will be quite satisfied to have that short Memor-
andum from the Admiralty, so that we can lay these views of the
Admiralty before our Parliaments.
CHAIRMAN: Yes.
After an adjournment:
■Coiumercial
Treaty
Question.
Kesolutioii
XII.
COMMERCIAL TREATY QUESTION.
After further discussion in private, on resuming:
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I suppose you have the confidential
memorandum prepared by the Board of Trade and circulated with
regard to the best means of consulting the Colonies in commercial
negotiations! ! '^f7'\
Mr. DEAKIN : I have been looking at it this morning for a little
while.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : If there are any suggestions which any
Colonial Minister would care to make about this either now or later
on, I will be obliged.
Mr. DEAKIN : I am not in a position to make any practical
suggestion. We have really no time either to read or consider these
papers.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have looked at it, and it seems to
me very satisfactory that no Treaty should apply to any of the De-
pendencies unless they adhere to it, and then provision is made in
the Treaty that they can put nn end to it. That is pretty satis-
factory.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Lord Elgin, I would like the resolution I
have given notice of motion of to be formally placed before the Con-
ference and assented to unless there is any material objection to it.
" That all doubts should be removed as to the right of the self-gov-
" erning Dependencies to make reciprocal and preferential fiscal
" agreements with each other and with the United Kingdom, and fur-
" ther, that such right should not be fettered by Imperial Treaties
" or Conventions without their concurrence." I presume you will
put this resolution, and it may be agreed to?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes.
Uniformity
of Patent
Laws.
UNIFORMITY OF PATENT LAWS.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: With regard to patents, the Resoliition
is: "That it is desirable in the interests of inventors and the public
"that patents granted in Groat Britain or in any Colony possessing
" a Patent Office of a standard to be specified should be valid through-
"out the Empire." That is New Zealand, is it not?
Mr. DEAKIN: No, it is our*. CapL> Colony comes next.
Mr. LLOYD GEOP.QE: Yes.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is a very broad resolution, Mr.
Deakin.
COLOyiAL COXFEREyCE, X907 491
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEA.KIN: Very broad indeed. I have not looked at it re- Thiiteeuth
cently, but I am quite aware that as it stands it sets up a practically ofP m'
impossible standard. How far it is either possible or desirable to 1907.*^'
secure uniformity in this direction, is still a matter of argument with •;
us. Our Chief Patents Officer, the Commissioner of Patents, while ^f'* p'™„f
admitting that the end in view is most desirable, points out that the Laws,
enormous distances which separate us, the great importance as we (Sir Wilfrid
all know in patent matters of prior registration, and the varying con- I'Suner.)
ditions under which protection is granted — all these circumstances
together make the expectation of anything like real uniformity in
connection with the granting of patents still a far off end. So
that, speaking from memory, and without my material here, which
I have not looked at for some months, I know that this resolution,
although allowed to stand in these general terms, was intended mere-
ly to introduce the subject with a view to a discussion as to the
particular points and methods of simplifying patent processes, assi-
milating them to each other, so that we might at all events make
some approach towards uniformity. Any idea of absolute uni-
formity to be obtained by means of an Imperial Statute, if it be
ever feasible, does not appear feasible now. All that can be at-
tempted so far as I recall the difficulties to mind is, as I have said,
that there should be such an assimilation of methods, times, and
modes as would facilitate the undei-standing in each part of the Em-
pire of the patent laws of the other portions, so that the steps talcen
and information supplied may be of the same nature, thus saving
the inventor the expense of facing half-a-dozen or a dozen sorts of
procedure in order to register his patents in different parts of the
Empire. We quite recognise that it is only in that practical direc-
tion, step by step, and not by any overriding legislation requirements,
that we can attain the object of this resolution. It resolves itself
into the practical question how far our jjatent systems can be assimi-
lated as to be easily mutually comprehensible and available.
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE: Thnt is really the point.
Mr. DEAIvIX : I have not any material at hand here to explain
the details in which I thought that was possible.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : What I find is that there are legal diffi-
culties, and I think they are set forth here in the memorandum which
I will put in; I will not trouble the Conference by reading it.
Mr. DEAKIN: We have not seen that, have we?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No. You will find the difficulties are
all set out there. We do not mind inquiring into the whole ques-
tion if you can put it into the form rather of an inquiry as to whe-
ther something can be done to assimilate the laws.
Mr. DEAKIN: I will do that.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Would you mind putting your resolution
in that form?
CHAIRMAN : And then it can be taken up at a subsidiary Con
ference.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE; Would something of this sort suit you?
" That greater uniformity of the patent laws throughout the Empire
" is desirable so far as local circumstances permit."
Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly, but would not you go further? That
492
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Uniformity
of Patent
Laws.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
is a general affirmation that greater unity is desirable so far as local
circumstances permit, but could not some action be taken, perhaps
preferably on your initiative, if we were to furnish you. if you do
not possess a complete statement of our patent laws and methods to
be collated by you ? Then you might be prepared to suggest to each
of us any amendments you would commend if we should see our way
to make them. This would be a means of bringing us into line in
whatever directions it is possible to obtain uniformity. If you
added to your general assertion something of that sort it would be a
most useful thing.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: There can be no harm in expression
as to what is desirable, but I think before any constituent member
of the Conference commits himself to this resolution or anything like
it they would require a very great deal of further consideration.
Mr. DEAKIX : Are you speaking of the resolution that the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade has just read?
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: No, but the addendum that you are
suggesting should be made to it — -" That patents granted in Great
" Britain or in any Colony possessing a patent office of a standard to
" be specified should be valid through the Empire." I think that is
Mr. Deakin's aim, rather.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is an unattainable idea at present. It can
be approached, but not reached, and it can only, be approached by
steps.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: This is the first step, I think, to greater
uniformity.
Mr. DEAIvEN : I quite agree with that.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: That a uniformity of law is desirable
is a very safe expression.
Mr. DEAKIN: It goes without saying.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON : But that you should pledge yourselves
to bringing about uniformity of law involves difficulties
Mr. DEAIvIX: I do not suggest that. I adopted Mr. Lloyd
George's words and was suggesting that you might go on to invite
us first of all to furnish to you at the centre of the Empire, if you
do not possess them, schedules of particulars setting forth our Patent
Laws. Then having obtained those from each of the self-governing
Dominions, you could compare them and see in what particular
modes it would be an advantage to bring them into line. You
would inform each one what would be necessary to bring its law
into a general harmony. Probably all would accept it with minor
amendments. The consequence would be that you would have taken
the longest stride that is now possible towards uniformity.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: Uniformity of law, any resolution ex-
pressing the desirability of obtaining uniformity of law, might have
verj' beneficial results, but I do not think beyond that we should
proceed at present. We are now in the middle of a discussion on
a Patent Bill in tlie House of Commons which is of a somewhat
elaborate character, and we have also to consider there, as we have in
nearly every case, the intrrniitional conventions. We should want
a good deal of time to think over the effect before altering our Im-
perial patent law.
COLOXIAL COXFERENCE. 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Take the Bill which is before the House
now; we are introducing' for the first time the principle of compul-
sory working of foreign jiatents. I should very much like to see that
extended throughout the Empire, and that is why I think a resolu-
tion of this kind might be exceedingly useful.
Mr. DEAKIN : I quite agree with the resolution as you read it,
and as I followed it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: And it would be a very good work for
the new Secretariat to take up.
Mr. DEAKIN : An excellent work.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: To try and collate these laws?
Mr. DEAKr^^: Yes.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Will you read your resolution?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : "That greater uniformity of patent laws
throughout the Empire is desirable so far as local circumstances per-
mit."
Sir WILFRID LATJRIER : With this qualification I have no ob-
jection. The subject is very complicated, and perhaps in no place
more than Canada, where the patent laws are perhaps more developed
than anywhere else.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: You have compulsory working.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not profess to understand it
myself.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: In New Zealand we are submitting fresh
legislation to the next Session of Parliament on this very important
matter, and what we want to reserve the right to our people to do is,
that while you may be suggesting uniformity of legislation, we will
put legislation through on this basis. I think our ParUament will
do it, and it will be supported by the Government. We absolutely
object to the system that has up to now prevailed of an American,
French or German patentee asking for the registration of his patent
in our country, reserving to himself the right to manufacture the
article in America and keep our people in the position for the full
limit of years, and a renewal at the end of the time, of paying
the piper for the convenience of the people in America or Germany
or France, or wherever else you like to name, and the product itself
is never manufactured in our country at all. We pay for a type-
writer, for a motor-car, or for something connected with a plough,
an exorbitant price to enable a person who has sold his patent to
somebody else at an exorbitant price, to bleed our people to death.
We are not going to allow it.
Mr. DEAKIN : We have a provision aimed at that.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I have a provision with the same object
in a Bill I am promoting now.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We want to insist on the registration of
a patent within a reasonable time, and unless it is brought into prac-
tical working in our country, and the man himself may erect a factory
in our country and do so, our people will do it for him. If that is
provided for in your Bill it will be endorsed by the jjeople in our
country.
Thirteenth
Day.
8th Mbt,
1907.
Uniformity
of Patent
Laws.
(Sir
William
Eobson.)
494 COLOyiAL COXFERENGE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: To obtain uniformity of law would
8th May involve extraordinary difficulty. Take Canada, Canada has a search
1907. for novelty., and so has the United States, and the United States lays
„ ~ . great stress on the value of that provision, hut that provision does
of Patent n°* exist everywhere, and Canadians might very well object that
Laws. patents granted with less severity of investigation should neverthe-
(Sir Joseph less run current throughout Canada, as if they were granted to Cana-
Ward.) dians. Each Colony will want to think a great deal about this sub«
ject.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It is a most complicated subject,
local circumstances; that is quite consistent with the desire to obtain
Sir Joseph Ward. There will be no objection to our meeting our
uniformity of legislation.
Mr. DEAKIN : We want a general policy and a resolution in that
direction.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The resolution of Mr. Lloyd George,
with the qualification at the end, is not objectionable.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is substantially the Cape resolu-
tion, it is pointed out to me. I had not seen the Cape resolution
at all, but with reference to the word "Imperial legislation," that
would be impossible, as we could not legislate for Canada, Australia,
and New Zealand. It might be put in this way : " That it is de-
" sirable that His Majesty's Government, after full consultation with
" the Colonies, should endeavour to provide such uniformity as may
" be practicable."
Dr. SMARTT : "Uniformity of laws as far as possible."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is substantially the Gape resolu-
tion, except the first part of it.
Dr. SMARTT: I see your difficulty as to the first part, but we
can easily meet it. What we had in view in framing this resolu-
tion was that we wanted, as far as possible, as another example of
unity, to have our patent laws and our trade statistics, and our com-
pany laws, and everything of that sort, formed upon the same basis,
and we look to the Imperial Government in their Act to advise us
as to the best mode of procedure to bring about that as far as pos-
sible.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I think your resolution admirably meets
it.
Dr. SMARTT: I think Mr. Lloyd George will specially agree with
me that it is most inadvisable, even in regard to our company laws,
that you should have one law in England and a different law in all
the various British Colonies, who are anxious to have them all on
the same basis.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I think it is trade marks and not mer-
chandise marks you have in your mind.
Dr. SMARTT: Yes, "trade marks" it ought to be instead of
"merchandise marks."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think that might be carried.
Resolution CHAIRMAN: "That it is desirable that His Majesty's Govern-
XII. ment, after full consultation with the Colonies, should endeavour to
provide such uniformity as may he practicable in the laws for the
granting and protection of trade marks and patents."
COLONIAL COyPEREXCE. 1907 495
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILFRID LAHRIER: Very good, but replace the word Thirteenth
"Colonies." gtl, j[^y^
Mr. DEAKIN: •'Dominions" is the word we have used. ^^^-
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: All right. rniformity
of Patent
Dr. SMARTT: Would you add also, Mr. Lloyd George, the uni Laws.
formity of Company Law? (Chairman.)
COPYRIGHT. Copyright.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We have a new resolution about that.
What about copyright, which is much more important? What have
you to say to copyright. Sir Wilfrid ?
Sir .WILFRID LAURIER: I do not think I would touch copy-
right.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It seems a little more difficult.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It is far more difficult.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I wish we could get uniformity in copy-
right.
Dr. SMARTT : It is rather unfair that any portion of the Em-
pire should rely purely on the copyright of the other parts of the
Empire.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We are great sufferers here.
Dr. SMARTT : I am in favour of a copyright resolution.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I wish you could include copyright, be-
cause it is very unfair that our authors should be treated in a
British Dominion exactly as they would be treated in a foreign coun-
try.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Copyright goes a long way past that.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I suppose in Australia where you
have a larger paper element copyright is a very troublesome question.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Very troublesome.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : You mean about designs.
Mr. DEAKTN : Our law as to designs is passed.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: We want it to go further than it has?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Does your law protect the poor British
author ?
Mr. DEAKIN : I would not like to say without looking at it how
far he is protected or not protected. Copyright is a technical sub-
ject.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Copyright seems to be too difficult.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Are you leaving out copyright altogether?
Could you not introduce it in looser terms: "and copyright as far as
practicable."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I wish you could, I must say; it does
not bind you to uniformity, beyond what is practicable, and it is left
to you to legislate.
Mr. DEAKIN: I have no objection.
Dr. SMARTT : Your contention. Mr. Doyd George, is that if an
496
COLOXIAL COyFEEEXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
IhutBenth author takes out a copyright in England, he should be protected in all
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Copyright.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
British Colonies.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : He could only be protected by your own
laws.
Dr. SMARTT : Our laws should protect him, and you would
mutually protect our authors.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Certainly.
Dr. SMART: I am altogether in favour of it.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: So am L
Dr. SMARTT : That is what we are pleading for.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : And you have a growing interest in it
because your literature gTows. Would Sir Wilfrid object to the
resolution ?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : At present I would. If the Minister
of Agriculture, who, strange to say, has the matter in his hands,
were here he perhaps would have a different opinion, but in his ab-
sence I would not like to deal with it. It has been a contentious
subject with us for years, and certain sections of the Labour Party
with us have taken a very strong position with regard to it.
Dr. SMARTT: Could you not let it stand over?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: We cannot attempt to reform every-
thing at this Conference ; leave something for the next Conference.
Trade
Statistics.
Eesolution
XIV., p. ix
TR.\DE STATISTICS.
CHAIRMAN : Trade statistics.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I move here: "That it is desirable, so
" far as circumstances jiermit, to secrue greater uniformity in the
'■ trade statistics of the Empire, and that the Note prepared on this
" subject by the Imperial Government be commended to the con-
" sideration of the various Governments represented at this Confer-
" ence." I am not going to take up time over that; the memorandum
has been circulated and I think we have all agreed that it is very
desirable that there should be uniformity of trade statistics.
!Mr. F. R. MOOR: That is some work for your secretariat.
tJuiformity
of
Company
Law
Resolution
XV.
UNIFORMITY OF COMPANY LAW.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, all this is work for the secretariat.
I also move the resolution ''That it is desirable so far as circum-
" stances permit, to secure greater uniformity in Company Laws of
" the Empire and that the memorandum and analysis prepared on this
" subject by the Imperial Government be commended to the con-
" sideration of the various Governments represented at this Confer-
"ence." That has been circulated I think.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That might be expected.
CHAIRMAN: Agreed^
Mr. DEAKIN: Agreed.
Dr. SMARTT: Can you not nn-et us in copyright?
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
497
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not see anything objectionable in recom-
mending the copyright proposed, but Sir Wilfrid is not prepared to
deal with it.
Sir WILFRID LAUEIER: Both Sir William Lyne and I have
some objection to it.
EECIPROCITT AS TO BARRISTERS.
CHAIRMAN : There are two small things from New Zealand on
the agenda about reciprocity.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I want to deal with this question of reci-
procity as to barristers and surveyors. I will state the position
briefly, Lord Elgin. I want to ask the Conference seriously to con-
sider the fairness of giving effect to what I propose and I will give
my reasons for it briefly. Full provision for reciprocity with the
United Kingdom exists under the Imperial Act, but it is practically
inoperative in the case of New Zealand owing to objections raised by
the English Law Society on the ground that in New Zealand the
two branches of the profession, barristers and solicitors, are com-
bined and owing to this objection the Order in Council necessary to
bring the Act into operation has not been issued. I submit that this
objection has no substance. It is not suggested, nor does the Act
provide, that in the case of a New Zealand barrister who is admitted
in the United Kingdom under the Act he shall be entitled to practise
here as a solicitor. I would like to point out that if the Act were
brought into operation the balance of advantage would be with the
United Kingdom. The number of New Zealand practitioners who
would seek admission in England would be very few, and the number
who would actually practise in England would be intinitesimal. On
the other hand the number of English barristers who would avail
themselves of the Act for the purpose of admission in New Zealand
vhere they would have the right to practise both as barristers and
solicitors would presumably Be great.
It is well known that although the prizes at the English Bar are
splendid for those who can win them, tli'^ number who succeed is
very small compared with the very large number who are barristers
only in name. The Colonies would afford an excellent field for
these gentlemen, and in such cases the direct advantage would be to
them although I freely admit that the Colonies would inevitably gain
by obtaining people who would not only be a very estimable addition
to the population, but would strengthen and raise the status of the
profession in the Colony and keep it in closer touch with the Eng-
lish Bar.
Since I have been in England I have noticed that a further ob-
jection has been raised, namely, that in New Zealand women are
eligible for admission to the bar. I admit the force of that in the
matter of reciprocity, that if you want reciprocity you should have
it in the same sexes, and where the desirability exists in England of
women not being admitted to the Bar, and it does not exist in New
Zealand, you could not have reciprocity in that respect. I think it
is unreasonable under the reciprocity provisions of the Act that
women should be allowel to prartiee when they are not eligible.
Otherwise T should like to say, however, that the difficulty can be
effectively removed if the Order in Council provides that it shall
apply only to persons who would otherwise be eligible for admission.
58—32
Tliirteenth
Dav.
Sth ilav,
1907.
Uniformity
of Company
Law.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
Reciprocity
as to
Barristers.
^8
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Reciprocity
as to
Barristers.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
That would exclude women from the benefits of the Act in the
United Kingdom and elsewhere where they are not eligible.
,1 have dealt only with the United Kingdom and New Zealand,
but the same observations would, of course, apply to other portions
of the dependencies in cases where the same objections have been
urged. Now, I want to say on this matter that I do personally feel
that it is greatly to be regretted that a matter of sentiment which
can be provided for in the terms of the Order in Council, should
prejudice or stand in the way of what would be regarded '^'- the pro-
fession, certainly in New Zealand, and I presume elsewhere, too, the
inestimable advantage for them to have the right of reciprocity with
their professional brethren in England. To my mind it appears to
be purely sentimental, this objection to the admission of women to
the Bar in New Zealand where comparatively few women, only two
or three at the most, have passed, and who have certainly been very
far from a discredit to the profession; the women I know who have
passed for the Bar in New Zealand have obtained it as the result of
hard work, and every examination that a male requires to pass
through they undergo, so that they have attained to the position
after every ordeal which it is possible to put in their way to enable
them to attain to a very high and honourable position, and the few
who have passed have carried out their work in a most capable way
and stand to-day very high in the esteem of the male members of the
profession in New Zealand. I do hope that at this Conference,
where we are trying to bring about mutuality and agreement, where
we are trying to bring about the interchange of officers in the De-
fence Department, where we are trying to bring about the inter-
change of units in the Defence Organisation, we are not going t«
allow a question of pure sentiment which could be provided for by
the most ordinary clause in the Order in Council, and the Imperial
Act as I say provides already for reciprocity excepting for the fact
that barristers and solicitors in New Zealand are combined while that
is not so in England, should stand in the way so far as to prevent the
carrying out of what was originally intended under the Imperial Act,
the interchange between members of the professions.
I would personally look upon it as almost an insult to the mem-
bers of the profession in England if they were to say they could not
provide for an interchange by declaring it to be really oil sentimen-
tal grounds which could be obviated in the Order in Council in the
ordinary way. I can say with some experience of our country, that
the profession in New Zealand, some of the leading members of the
profession, regard the matter as of the deepest possible interest to
their profession, and I am persuaded in my own mind that nine-
tenths of the advantages would accrue to the men in England in the
profession who want to have the opportunity of practising as barris-
ters and solicitors, which they could do in New Zealand and which
the leading barristers and solicitors in New Zealand themselves could
not do if they came to England.
For the reasons I liavo \irgeil as briefly as I can my views, T hope-
that the Conference may see its way to affirm the Resolution. The
conditions required to meet the sentimental side of it can and would
be provided for by Order in Council. I move the Resolution, my
Lord.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: I do not know whether Sir Joseph
could tell us what are the qualifications in New Zealand for admis-
sion to th" New Zealand Bar,
COLOXIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907
499
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I cannot tell you with complete accuracy,
but I know that it involves a number of years being articled to a
barrister and solicitor's office, and passing an examination before a
Judge of the Supreme Court.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSOX: This is not merely a question of
general reciprocity, hut any advantage of this kind given to those
who live, say in New Zealand, or Australia, or Canada, or anywhere
else, might, if the qualification in New Zealand were not as severe
as that in England, be made the means of securing admission to the
English Bar by what one might call a Colonial avenue.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Very well, make it a condition that the
reciprocity should be contingent on their complying with the same
conditions as exist for admission to the Bar in England.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSOX: The same conditions would not be
quite as easily applied. We have very special and rather strict quali-
fications for admission to the Bar. Admission to the roll as solicitors
is a different matter; there you have a five years' apprenticeship (I
do not know whether in New Zealand the apprenticeship is so long),
followed by a somewhat strict examination, and we have many men
in England who would be very glad indeed to avail themselves of any
avenue by which that strict condition could be evaded.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think it is five years in New Zealand.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: Then with regard to the Bar, we have
somewhat different qualifications, perhaps not apparently quite so
severe as those which hedge round the profession of solicitors, but
still we have qualifications of residence in England, which are gen-
erally accompanied, I think, although not necessarily part of the con-
dition, by study in a barrister's chambers. These qualifications I am
afraid the English Bar would not be content to surrender. It is not
an easy matter for us to maintain an even balance between barristers
and solicitors with respect to qualifications but we have given special
facilities to solicitors to procure admission to the Bar, and I am sure
the English Inns of Court, who govern the Bar, would very favourably
consider any proposal to give to solicitors from New Zealand or
Canada, or the other Colonies, the same kind of special facilities as
it already gives to solicitors here. They let in English solicitors
upon slightly more favourable terms than they apply to one' who is
coming to the Bar merely as a student without having become a
solicitor, and I have no doubt that the Inns of Court would favour-
ably consider proposals to give that kind of facility to Colonial barris-
ters ; but I would urgo the Conference not to adopt a resolution
which it might be afterwards found difficult for us to give effect to,
because we certainly would not be likely to force this upon the Inns
of Court without carefully considering the views of those especially
concerned. We should have to consider the views of the Inns of
Court, and I am bound to say that I am not able to speak with au-
thority as to their opinion, because I have taken no means of finding
out what their opinion would be.
!Mr. DEAKIN : They are expressed in the document before us.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: I do not think the English Bar would
be willing to relax all the regulations and restrictions.
Sir WTLERID LAUEIER: There are other difBcnlties in mj
58— 32i
Thirteenth
Day.
Sth May,
1907.
Reciprocity
as to
Barri>;tei -.
Sir William
Robson.)
500 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth country. The Bars, with us, ave not under the jurisdiction of the
Day. Dominion Parliament. We have a Bar for each Province.
8th May,
1907. Mr. DEAKLN : Our position is the same as yours.
Laurier.)
Reciprocity Sir WILFRID LAURIER: There is a Bar for the Province of
as to Quebec and one for the Province of Ontario; and a man cannot
Barristers. j,g admitted from one Bar to the other except under very special cir-
T r„-;'_ \ cumstances. For instance., if a man becomes Attorney-General, he
can be admitted from the Bar of one Province to that of the other,
or if he has obtained some very high post; but I do not know more
than two or three instances when a member of the Bar of one Pro-
vince has been admitted to the other except by qualifying himself,
and taking residence, and passing the examinations : so that we should
not do it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : The extraordinary thing about this matter,
in a Xew Zealand solicitor upon better terms than an English solici-
tor, and that is really what this resolution would amount to.
Sir JOSEH WARD : The extraordinary thing about this matter,
Lord Elgin, is, that from the New Zealand point of view we are re-
garding it from the very opposite standpoint. I quite concede at once
that the profession are naturally jealous of their rights in England,
and unless the terms of admission were the same, it would be proper
to exclude anybody from getting in either as a barrister or solicitor in
England, but this is urged from the very opposite standpoint. Of my
knowledge, I am not aware of many from our Colony trj-ing to get
admission to the Bar; but I understand that English solicitors have
come cut and tried to get admission to the Bar in New Zealand.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: I am sure it would be a great relief
to English solicitors going out to New Zealand, but one is looking at
it from the point of view of Ihe English Bar, and, I am afraid, from
their point of view — I do not speak from any personal feeling of my
own — the proposal would be resisted. As it is, it is not altogether to
procure special treatment for the admission of solicitors. That we
have done, and that, I believe, the Bar would be willing to extend
to the case of New Zealand or for Colonial barristers or solicitors,
but I do not think we could induce the English Bar to go further in
respect to Colonies than they go with respect to Englishmen.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I will qualify my resolution by taking
the suggestion made by the sub-treasiirer, who writes on behalf of
the British Law Society, I suppose.
Mr. DEAICIN: The four Inns of Court.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I will move as a preface to my resolution,
" That provided it is satisfactorily established that the qualifications
" as a barrister in any Colony are equivalent to those in this coun-
" try. any proposal for facilitating the call to the English Bar of
" Barristers in any Colony or Dependency upon terms analogous to
" those upon which English solicitors may for the time being be
" entitled to be called to the Bar should be favourablv considered."
I think, if I take their own words that should be acceptable.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: We have not that resolution before us.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : T move that.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: I .lo n.it think you are following this
jiroposal. This suggestion of .Sir Henry Lawrence is that: "any
" proposal for facilitating (he call to tlie English Bar of Barristers,
cows [AT. COXFEREXCE, 1907 501
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" in any Colony or Dependency, upon terms analogous to those upon Thirteenth
"which Enplish solicitors may for the time being be entitled to be c.J'v'
" called to the Bar sho\ild be favourably considered." That is putting 1907. " '
the Colonial upon the same footing as an English solicitor, but I
rather understood your suggestion. Sir Joseph, to be that if you make "'^''•procity
provisions in the Colony, of the same kind as those which are appli- Barristers,
cable to English solicitors, then the Colonial solicitor, without sub- (Sir William
mitting to the terms imposed upon an English solicitor hercv by Robson.)
virtue of his admission in New Zealand would thereupon become
entitled to admission to the Bar of England. That is rather a dif-
ferent proposal to Sir Henry Lawrence's.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The wording of Sir Henry Lawrences
second paragraph does not quite bear that out, if I may be allowed
to say so: he says: ''The Committee recommend that provided it is
'' satisfactorily established that the qualifications for admission as
" a barrister in any Colony are equivalent to those in this country,
" any proposal for facilitating the call to English Bar of Barristers
" in any Colony or Dependency upon terms analogous to those upon
'■ which English solicitors may for the time being be entitled to be
" called to the Bar should be favourably considered." It does not
say, as yoii suggest now, that if they have ijstablished the fact that
their qualifications for admission as a barrister in any Colony are
beyond all question, they should come home again and undergo a
further examination. He says : " provided it is established." There
would he somebody on their behalf who would ascertain beyond all
question that they were entitled to admission. It would not give a
general right to anybody to come home and be entitled to admission
here. I think, with that preface, to my resolution it might be, with-
out any difficulties, accepted.
Mr. DEAXIN : My position is precisely that of the Prime Min-
ister of Canada ; the Commonwealth, as such, has no jurisdiction over
any portion of the Bar, except that portion which practises in the
Commonwealth Court. But in the various States of Australia the
qualifications for the Bar differ a good deal. In most of the States
it is possible for a practitioner to be at the same time a barrister and
a solicitor, although in practice in certain states, even where that
exists, the two are divided except in country towns; but in New
South Wales the English practice still exists, and the two branches
of the profession are separate. The standards, so far as i am ac-
quainted with the English are fairly high; in fact, owing to rather
curious conjunction with the circumstances, when the professions
were amalgamated in Victoria, the standard adopted was that pre-
viously in force in respect to the Bar. I believe that eveiy prac-
titioner in Victoria now qualifies himself for what is very nearly the
degree of LL.B. before he is admitted as a barrister. The standard
of a year or two ago, and I am not aware of any change since, was
very high. I do not think Sir William Robson objects to any of the
proposals for reciprocity, providing that the authorities here are
satisfied — that the training, the probation, and the tests are fairly
equal.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON : The difficulty would be to settle which
authorities are to be satisfied.
Mr. DEAKIN : You are the authorities to be satisfied as to your
Bar.
502
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1007
Thirteenth
Dav.
8tli Miv,
1907. ■
Reciprocity
as to
Barristers.
(Mr.
Deakin."!
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sir WILLIAM ROBSOX: If the Conference pass a resolution,
that is a matter which no doubt would have great weight; but, after
all, the decision as to what qualifications are necessary is at present
left to the Inns of Court for the English Bar and the Incorporated
Law Society for soHcito.s. The English Bar has expressed its wil-
lingness in the document which is before me to consider favourably
any proposal of which it would, of course, be itself the judge as to
what the qualifications should be here in the Colonies, and it would
have itself to be judge as to what conditions it should impose here.
These are matters really for the English Bar, and I think an as-
surance of that kind from the Inns of Court should really be suffi-
cient, but it would look very much like a quasi-legislative step affect-
ing the Inns of Court if they were told by this Conference that,
according to a decision to which great weight should be attached,
provision should be made throughout the Empire for reciprocal ad-
mission of barristers to practice. They would say: "What about our
authority? It is we who decide."
Mr. DEAKIN: I thought Sir Joseph had put that aside.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSOX: I should like to see Sir Joseph's am-
ended resolution in some form in which it can be carefully considered,
because I am sure his addendum
Mr. DEAKIN : As I understand it is not an addendum ; he talces
the second paragraph of that report from the Sub-Treasurer to the
four lines of Court.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON : Not in substitution for his resolution.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I have no objection to substitute that
formality. If I take the recommendation of the four Inns of Court
I do not know that I can have any better authority.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: I should like to see the exact form
of the resolution. What the repnrt says is that it should be favour-
ably considered and I do not think there would be any objection to
that in substitution for the original proposal.
Mr. DEAKIN: Am I not right. Sir Joseph, that you move sub-
section 2 of this report possibly omitting the word " that " — " Pro-
" vided it is satisfactorily established " right down to the last word.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I move that.
Mr. DEAKIN: There is no objection to that.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : " Provided it is satisfactorily established
that the qualifications for admission as a barrister in any colony are
equivalent to those in this country any proposal for facilitating the
call to the English Bar of barristers in any colony or dependency
upon terms analogous to those upon which English solicitors may for
the time being be entitled to be called to the Bar should be favour-
ably cnnsidered."
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: That only binds the English Bar, that
resolution does not bind the Colonial Bar, and it does not deal with
the difficulty raised by Sir Wilfrid Lnurier.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: T will put in the words "English or
Coloninl."
Sir WILLiAM ROBSON: It is much better before one adopts a
resolution which may conflict with so many professional interests
that one should see it in some form in which it can be considered.
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 503
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
As Mr. Deakin suggests, you cannot take paragraph 2 and make it ihirteenth
a resolution at this Conference without reference to the reciprocal Day.
obligations. I agree that if you take the spirit of this resolution and 1907"^'
.vou make it applicable to all the Colonies one might get some resolu- -
tioii which is capable of being accepted, but as it stands now it is ^Reciprocity
unilateral. Harristers.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: What I am trying to bring about, and I 'Si William
know there is a strong opinion in our country with regard to it, is a Kobson.)
position which would bring the Colonies and the Old Country closer
together and in the matter of the professions it is as important as in
any other respect. If the conditions required by the Inns of Court
in England are fully complied with by a man who has passed through
our Courts in our Colony and those responsible for the government of
the Inns of Court on behalf of the profession in England are satis-
fied that he can pass an examination near to their own and it is for
them to say finally whether that examination has been such that they
can agree to if that be their imprimatur upon that professional man
who comes to England, and we interchange by conferring the privi-
lege upon Englishmen coming to our country, surely it is an ad-
vantageous thing for us to help one another. That is what I am
asking for. I take the proposal made by the Inns of Court them-
selves; I give way upon my own as it is considered too wide and is
capable of an interpretation that is opposed by those who represent
the Inns of Court, and in the aspect of it I take their own words,
and I ask that that should be given effect to as evidence ot the good-
will of the profession in England to their brethren of the same flesh
and blood in a British country. New Zealand, or Canada, or Aus-
rtalia, as the case may be ; I think one may hope for this being gen-
erously considered even by those who are anxious to conserve, and
rightly so, the great interest of the profession in England. I do not
want to derogate from their status; I do not want anyone from our
Colony who is inferior in any way to the best men who can pass the
most severe examinations in England to come here, but if he passes
with the approval of the representatives of the Inns of Court an ex-
amination to what is required here that would be a matter of reci-
procity between the two countries.
Sir WILLIAM KOBSOX : Do you not think you had better draft
a resolution which will incorporate the reciprocity? As matter of
draughtsmanship it is scarcely quite convenient to adopt this para-
graph which relates only to what England is willing to do and not to
incorporate in that what the Colony is to do.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Let us add at the end of this: "should
" be favourably considered and provided that the same conditions as
" exist in relation to admission to the Bar in the Colonies should ap-
"ply to English barristers or solicitors visiting those Colonies."
Mr. F. R. MOOR: How does that apply to the Colonies? Sir
Wilfrid Laurier has pointed out the difficulty in their country, and
we have it in ours too; I do not think there is reciprocity amongst
ourselves over there yet.
Dr. SMARTT: No.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON : That is very important. That shows
the necessity of considering the matter in all its bearings.
Dr. SMARTT : The difficulty with us is very strong owing to the
fact that the Cape law is founded on Roman Dutch law.
504
COLOyiAL COXFERENCE, 1907
Thirteenth
Day.
8th Mar,
1907.
Reciprocity
as to
Barristers.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. DEAIvIN : I do not suppose it would be possible for the
Iiins of Court to lay down provisions that would apply to every pro-
vince and state in the Empire; they would require to deal with the
examination or qualifications now required in each and make the
necessary provision for supplementing each.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: Yes, we are here to consider whether
these suggestions should be put into a form susceptible for being
dealt with by the Conference as a resolution applicable to all Colon-
ies.
• Sir WILFRID LAURIER : There is great difficulty as to that,
because the point which Sir Joseph Ward has in mind he has partly
reached, because he has shown that the British Government here by
legislation or otherwise could admit barristers from the Colonies pro-
vided they qualified in a certain standard, but to put it conversely,
as you say, that is to say a barrister from one country being admitted
in another country, for instance in Canada and in Australia, is a
thing that is beyond our power.
Sir WILLIAM EOBSOX: I may say that it would be scarcely
right for the Conference to pass a resolution which should be binding
upon the English profession compelling it or inviting it to give ad-
vantages to the Colonies which were not accompanied by reciprocal
advantages on the part of the Colonies.
Dr. SMARTT : I take it the Colonies to which Sir Joseph made
reference would give reciprocal advantages to the English barrister.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I have just written this to try to meet it.
Sir WILLIAM EOBSOX: I should like to see the resolution
and to consider it. I should not like hastily to adopt, especially ^s
representing the English Bar for the moment, any resolution that
might by my profi ssional brethren be considered prejudicial to their
interests without consulting them.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is only fair. I will complete the
resolution, and in the meantime I would suggest that as we have had
a discussion \ipon it, it should be deferred until we meet again, be-
cause I think it is too important to drop. There may be a certain
amount of doubt as to how the profession would accept this resolu-
tion of their own
Sir WILLIA:M ROBSOX : You must not assume that this para-
graph, which is stating what England is prepared to do, or what the
four Inns of Court are prepared to do, would be treated by them as
adequate if it were passed as a resolution by the Conference, opera-
tive against themselves only, and not accompanied by any reciprocal
advantages.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I have that at the end. an<l I shall read
it; after the word "considered'" add tlie words "and that similar
" terms and conditions should apply for admission of English barris-
" ters and solicitors to the Colonial Bar." My desire i« to make it
fair to both sides and equally applicable.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: Sir Wilfri.l Laurier thinks Canada
may not be willing to agree.
Sir WILFRID LArrUER: I say Canada ought to have no juris-
diction in this matter.
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907 505
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: That is a very important block, and Thiiteenth
80 again with Australia there is an important block. 8th M
Mr. DEAKIN : You could not make it conditional, of course ? '"*^-
Sir WILLIAil ROBSON : You may depend upon it that although Reciprocity
the English Parliament has, perhaps, a higher and more absolute „ *^-A°
power over Englishmen than any governing body has over any State, „.' ^.,, V,
still there are unseen but immistakable limitations to which Parlia- Laurier.)
ment is subject and when it comes up against a profession like the
Englisli Bar, it is very apt to discover that its limitations are some-
what substantial.
Dr. SMARTT: Especially as the profession has a considerable
number of votes.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Their influence is far-reaching.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: The English Bar is extraordinarily
well-represented.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I can only say that in our country there
is no profession that stands higher in our estimation than the English
Bar; we look upon them as the great representatives of a noble pro-
fession in every way, and I do not want to do anything that would
in any way either weaken or interfere with any of the rights of the
profession in England, very far from it. I would not be presump-
tuous enough to do anything of the kind, and we are anxious to bring
about reciprocity between them upon fair terms only. What I would
suggest isj that with the addition of the words I have proposed here,
perhaps the resolution might be printed. I do not know whether I
have amplified it sufficiently to meet what I have tried to convey,
and in the meantime, after it is printed, we might defer it until there
is an opportunity of considering it. In any case, I have sufficient
common-sense to know that if we propose anything which was re-
garded by the English profession as adverse to their interests, we
could not expect them to conform to it; we certainly do not want to
make any change unless it is an act of goodwill on both sides. The
matter has been brought forward in New Zealand by some of the
very best men in our country, and I am anxious before we go away
from this Conference that we should have an opportunity of con-
sidering whether we cannot show a little genuine and practical feel-
ing of reciprocity between our countries on both sides of the water.
CHAIRMAN : Can you not put it in such a form as we have had
a good many resolutions as would invite that consideration ? You
speak of getting at the feeling of the Bar, but we certainly cannot
get the feeling of the Bar before we separate, as we should probably
separate to-morrow. I do not see how it is possible to get very much
of an outside opinion, and if you could have worded your resolution
so as to meet Sir William Robson's view it would have been con-
venient.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I would be very happy to do so and to
put it in such a way as to invite a suggestion from them. .1 do not
desire to hurry it. Perhaps it may stand until to-morrow and then
in a few minutes we might be able to deal with it.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: Yes, I am quite sure that the English
Bar would be desirous of doing what they can. I think I may say
for the Bar that we have not behaved ungenerously to those who have
sought admission to our ranks. Of course the privilege is a very
.506 COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII A. 1908
Thirteenth valuable one and we have accorded it very freely to Scotch and Irish
8th Mav barristers. The limitations stand against them as much as against
1907. " our brethren across the seas. There is no differentiation between one
. who lives in these Islands and one who lives beyond them under the
'^aT'^to' ^ same flag as far as we are concerned, but we have been obliged in
Barristers, order to maintain the peculiar status of the English Bar to be very
ilSir William strict indeed about our regulations as to admission, because it is a
' very singular status. It means that we have to give up many classes
of work that solicitors enjoy; we are restricted in many somewhat
singular and peculiar ways and in return we have very exceptional
privileges. The Bar is very jealous both of its privileges and of its
limitations. It is as keen about its limitations as about its privileges
and it would not be in any sectional or purely national spirit that the
thing would be considered; it would be considered on very broad
grounds. That is why, as far as I am concerned, I would like to see
precisely what it is we are invited to do before we took any definite
step. I would certainly ask the Conference not to pass a resolution
which might bring the government into conflict with the Bar upon a
matter of this kind.
Mr. DEAKIN : I suppose you speak now as a member of the
government.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: As a Member of the Government and
as a barrister. I desire to see the Bar and the Government in con-
tinual accord.
Mr. DEAKIN : May I suggest as pertinent to this subject a
matter which on one of its sides at all events may appeal even to
the English Bar. It is rather anomalous that English barristers who
have gone to the Outer Dominions, and while there have reached a
position which has qualified them to receive silk, some of them re-
ceiving it in consequence of having held for some years the highest
position obtainable in their States, that of Attorney-General, and
adviser to the Governor. They advise him not only as Attorney-
General but in an independent capacity in times when he does not
desire ministerial but professional advice on matters of serious import
to himself. It seems anomalous that those who have been honoured
by being made King's Counsel, who are English barristers on their
return to this country should find that there is one King in Great
Britain and another King in the Commonwealth, and that they have
ceased to be His Majesty's Counsel or entitled to that recognition
here.
Of course the circumstances are so various that I must not be
understood as endeavouring to lay down the doctrine that everyon<-'
who is made a K.C. in any part of the Dominions should be qualified
here, but would venture to put in as far as this, that unless some
di.'^ability could bo shown, some want of qualification or standing
or some particular cause which should deprive a professional man of
standing of the honour he has enjoyed in one of the great communi-
ties beyond the seas, he should retain his professional ranlc. I take
first of all the case of the English barrister, because it seems to me
strange and might naturally appeal to the English Bar. The Colonial
barrister has claims also depending on his qualifications.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON : The same thing is applicable to the
Irish and Scotch K.C.
Air. DEAKIN: But there is always a distinction; I do not know
COLOyiAL COSFEREyCE. 1901
507
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
that the IrUli or Scotch K.C. has been called to your Bar, or that
after that he has occupied the position (I take the strongest case I
can find) of Attorney-General and of Chief Legal Adviser to the
Crown.
Sir WILLIAM RORSON: Yes. Take my Right Honourable and
learned friend, the Lord Advocate; the Lord Advocate would have to
submit to the ordinary professional conditions before he practised at
the English Bar.
Mr. DEAKIX : Is he not an English barrister?
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON : No.
Mr. DEAKIX : The case I am taking is of an English barrister,
a man with the right to practise at the English Bar; I put my
strongest case first — the case of a man fully qualified to practise at
the English Bar and who has the right to appear in all the Courts.
He goes out to one of the dependencies beyond the seas and receives
silk either before or after his elevation to the office of Attorney-
General, and in one or two cases I have in mind held the office for
some years. They come back to England, and although they are
English barristers, practising at the English Bar, who have been His
Majesty's advisers over the sea
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: That is really a matter for the per-
sonal discretion of the T-ord Chancellor, and if the case of a Colonial
K.C. who had been Attorney-General and desired to practise at the
English Bar were laid before the Lord Chancellor, it would be a ease
that would appeal strongly to his discretion.
Mr. DEAKIX: But even so, the resolution does not bear that
out. Whether any eases have been before the present Lord Chancellor
or his predecessor I cannot say. Going a step further, let me ask
your consideration for the barrister who has not been admitted to
the English Bar, but is qualified in the Dominions, i,' we now call
them, provided his qualification is, speaking broadl.v, as good as that
required by the Inns of Court, who becomes King's Counsel and comes
to Great Britain. Should he not be entitled to have his claims heard ?
Although I quite admit this is a matter for the personal discretion
of the Lord Chancellor, it is one of those eases in which there ap-
pears to be a distinction of status drawn between the Colonial and
the British professional man. Now unless that is based upon some
real difference in qualification or upon some definable distinction, it
surely ought not to arise, as I have heard that it has arisen simply
because a man who would undoubtedly have received silk if he had
been an Englishman, has not received it
Sir WILLIAM ROBSQX: There is no distinction as between
Englishmen and Colonist-, none. You may accept my assurance on
that point, because every observation you are making applies equally
to the Scotch and Irish Bar. The Scotch and Irish Bar maintain
their regulation against us, and we maintain ours against them. We
have certain restrictive regulations amongst ourselves even; we do
not allow the member of one circuit to practise in another circuit,
and we have all these restrictive regulations, which are something
quite outside any question between Englishmen and anyone coming
from the Dominions beyond the Seas. It has nothing to do with that,
because whatever we did with regard to Colonists we should equally
have to do with regard to the Scotch and Irish Bar.
Thirteenth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Reciprocity
as to
Barristers.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
508
COLOyiAL CONFERENCE, 1907
ThirteeDth
Day.
8th May,
1907.
Eecipiocity
as to
Barristers.
(Mr.
Peakin.)
Reciprocity
as to
Surveyors.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ilr. DEAKIN : Under similar conditions, most lertainly.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: It is the generality of the resolution
which makes me a little apprehensive about it.
Mr. DEAKIN: However, if I have enlisted your sympathies in
this matter it is sufficient for the present.
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON : It will be very favourably considered
by the English Bar and the Lord Chancellor, and the observations
you have made, which have apparently some personal reference, I
should be very glad to put before the Lord Chancellor.
Mr. DEAKIN : I have done it not for personal reasons, but be-
cause, as you know, professional men aU the world over are rather
jealous of the status they acquire, and if one of their number
Sir WILLIAM ROBSON: Without perhaps any definite resolu-
tion, I will communicate with the Bar Council. I would ask the
Conference not to pass any general or sweeping resolution without
much greater consideration than we have been able to give to it.
CHAIRMAN: There is one more question. We will put the
resolution Sir Joseph Ward has made on record as having been sub-
mitted, and then reserve the whole thing. I do not think we shall get
further.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Under the circumstances I am quite
agreeable to that course. The resolution will go on record as a
suggestion.
RECIPROCITY AS TO SURVEYORS.
CHAIRMAN : And the subject can be reserved for further con-
sideration. As to the other case you mentioned, the surveyors, there
is really no difference of opinion about it. In the paper you have
from us we quite accept your resolution.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is all right.
Mr. BRODEUR : The same objection will apply as far as Canada
is concerned to this proposal about the surveyors.
Mr. DEAKIN : That does not disqualify Sir Joseph Ward from
moving his resolution, or from its being carried. It only means that
we representatives of Federal Governments cannot take any official
part in that.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I will give you my reason in one sentence,
but there are many others I could give why I think this resolution
should be put on record. We have cases in New Zealand of English
surveyors who have come to our country for the purposes of health;
they have all the qualifications necessary, but they are not allowed to
practice in our country as surveyors. I have read the memorandum
from those responsible for circulating it in reference to the matter
of reciprocity for the protection of land surveyors and architects,
and all I can say in connection with this is that the principal sur-
veyors in New Zealand all belong to the Surveyors' Institute, which
is not a mere gathering together of men controlled as explained by
the Act of Parliament, but they are most jealous of the privilege of
the surveying profession. , „, • ^. ^
Mr. F. R. MOOR: I <lo not like to interrupt. Lord Elgin, but
as tlicre are only one or twu delegates here now, and I would like
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901 509
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
to know what has been done with respect to that pre%'ious resohi- Thirteenth
tion It has not been put in any shape or form. 8tl M
CHAIRMAN : The last one? It was decided that it should be 1907. ' '
recorded, and the only resolution upon it was that it should be Reciprocitv
reserved for further consideration. as to
Surveyors.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Wliat the New Zealand surveyors are (Mr. F. R.
anxious to do is this. They want to prevent a man having to com- M-oor.)
mence again, and go over the whole gamut of the ordinary examina-
tions, but they want him to comply, by examination, with all the
local conditions, local requirements, and local regulations in the ease
of a man from England.
CHAIRMiiN : Is there any objection to accepting it ?
Dr. SMARTT : Before that is accepted, I should like to have the
opportunity of seeing some pap:-rs we have on the subject, and I have
not got a copy here. I understand that what Sir Joseph Ward sug-
gests is that any surveyor who is qualified in New Zealand should,
under the reciprocal arrangement to be authorized, if he has satisfied
the authorities that he has the necessary knowledge of the local Acts
regulations which may be in force relating to the survey of land, &c.,
be entitled to practise. As far as I am informed, in the Cape Colony
the surveyors' examination is an examination of a very high stan-
dard indeed, and deals with many matters besides the mere surveying
of land, and I would like to have an opportunity, before the Con-
ference came to a resolution upon this, to look at these papers.
CHAIRMAN : It is dealt with in the report from the Surveyors'
Institution.
Dr. SMARTT : I have not had an opportunity of reading that.
CHAIRMAN : I think you will see that there they propose to
establish an examination which would satisfy those conditions.
Dr. SMARTT : Sir Joseph Ward's resolution doeg not propose
that. He proposes that if a man is qualified as a surveyor in New
Zealand, on showing he has a knowledge of the Acts in force in the
other portions of the Empire in which he desired to practise he should
have the opportunity of being allowed to practise the profession of
surveyor irrespective of whether there was a difference in the stan-
dards of the examination in the various parts of the Empire. That is
a very important thing; it is very much on the lines on which the
Solicitor-General has been referring to, the reciprocity among bar-
risters.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I would only like to say that in New
Zealand land surveying is recognised as a profession as much as law,
medicine, engineering, or anything else, and it is not (which appears
to be passing in your mind) the possibility of a New Zealand sur-
veyor coming to, say, South Africa, that I was contemplating. We
can take hundreds of them in New Zealand when we get them,
but if they come from England they must go through all the formal
examinations that they go through here, and they must conform
■with all the conditions of the Surveyors' Institute.
Dr. SMARTT : Would it mean that they would have to pass an
examination?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: In local regulations.
Dr. SMARTT: If I am rightly informed, our surveyors have to
510 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 CDWARC VII., A. 1908
Thirteenth pass an examination in other subjects besides the survey of laud. You
8th M would then have a surveyor coming in saying that he was acquainted
1907. ' with the local conditions, and allowed to practise on much easier
terms than those upon which local men would be allowed to practise.
Reciprocity
as to Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is not so.
STirvevois.
(^Dr_ Dr. SMARTT: I will look it up, if you do not mind allowing it
Smartt.) to stand over till the nest meeting of the Conference. I understand
our examination deals with more than mere land surveying.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: This is only to affirm that reciprocity
should be established; you cannot give effect to it without legis-
lation.
Dr. SMARTT: Will you put it in the form of the other resolu-
tion, that it should be favourably considered? The difficulty is the
question of examination. I am all in favour of having the examina-
tions on the same basis, so that they could go wherever they liked,
but it is a very serious thing to have one standard of examination
for one Colony, and another man passing with another standard in
another.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Have you read my resolution?
Dr. SMARTT : Yes. " That reciprocity shall be established be-
" tween the respective Governments and examining authorities
" throughout the Empire with regard to the examination and author-
" isation of land surveyors."'
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Read the last part " subject only."
CHAIRMAN : " Subject only " seems to me to be the difficulty,
and surely what the Surveyors' Institution proposes is that there
should be an examination or some means of examining a Surveyor in
every part of the world up to the proper standard.
Mr. BRODEUR: The last part of the resolution simply deals
with the one part of the regulations which have to be passed in each
province. In our country each province has the right to deal with
the nomination or appointment of certain surveyors, and they have
got different regulations according to the province in which they are,
and I submit that it would be impossible for us to pass anj- resolu-
tion which would affect that. It is not a matter which could be dealt
with by the Federal Authorities; it can only be dealt with by the
Provincial Authorities.
Mr. DEAKIIv : Some of us are Federal and some are State.
Mr. BRODEUR: Some are Federal, which deals with the lands
which are under Federal control.
Mr. DEAIvIN: Sir Joseph Ward is not a Federal representative
but what we would call a State representative, and so are Mr. Moor,
Dr. Smartt, and General Botha. They are qualified to speak on these
subjects, where you and I are not.
Mr. BRODEFR: That is the difficulty in which we find ourselves.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: I understand, but as long as you put your
position on record you need not give effect to it except by legislation.
They have to comply with the Local Acts.
Mr. BRODEUR: You would have to put your resolution a little
broader than it is at the end there " subject only to his satisfying the
COLONIAL COyPERENCE. 1907 51L
SESSIONAL PAP::R No. 58
" Government or existing examining authority of the Province or Thirteenth
" St«te." Day-
8th May,
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Very well— of the Province or Country 1907.
or State. „ ~ ..
Kecipiocity
CHAIRMAN: May I suggest that you would be satisfied with ^ ae to
this resolution: " That it is desirable that reciprocity should be estab- ^""^y>rs.
'■ lished between the respective Governments and examining authori- Brodeur ^'
" ties throughout the Empire with regard to the examination and
■' authorisation of land surveyors, and that the Memorandum of the
■' Surveyors' Institution on this subject be recommended to the
•' favourable consideration of the several Governments."
Dr. SMARTT : That meets it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: That mav mean it could not be done at
bU.
CHAIRMAN : On the contrary, I think it is very practical.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Very well.
CHAIRMAN. That has been circulated to the members.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: You leave everything out after what^
CHAIRMAN : After the word " Surveyors " and insert " and
■' that the Memorandum of the Surveyors' Institution on this subject
" be recommended to the favourable consideration of the several Gov-
" ernments." That seems to me a very practical way of carrying out
what you wish.
Dr. SMARTT : I should think that meets it. Our difficulty is the
same as the difficulty of the Surveyors' Institution of England. We
are one of the few Colonies with a severe examination in connection
with laud surveying, not alone in reference to the mere surveying
of land, but in connection with the other matters referred to by the
Surveyor's Institution, and it would not do to allow the ordinary
qualified land surveyor who had not studied the other subjects to
come in and compete on even more favourable terms than our people
who had studied these subjects. It is not our desire to prevent any-
body from any part of the Empire coming in so long as we can arrive
at a fair test.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am quite agi-eeable to accept that.
CHAIRMAN: Will that do, Mr. Brodeur?
Mr. BRODEUR: I do not think it would be possible for us to
agree, because it would be asserting a right which we have not got at
all. The Provinces have more rights than we have got ourselves.
CHAIRMAN: We are not saying that you have at any rate; we
only say that it is desirable that we send up the paper for considera-
tion.
Mr. BRODEUR : Then we might add a clause by which this
matter be reserved for consideration.
CHAIRMAN : Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN : I quite agree with Mr. Brodeur that this is not a
question we are entitled to speak upon with authority. I spoke on
the previous question as a member of the legal profession.
CHAIRMAN: Shall we adopt it in that form?
Mr. BRODEUR : Will you please read it again ?
512 COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
'"^^DaT"''' CHAIRMAN : " That it is desirable that reciprocity should be
8th May, established between the respective Governments and examining au-
1907. thorities throughout the Empire with regard to the examination and
Reciprocity authorisation of land surveyors, and that the Memorandum of the
as to Surveyors" Institution on this subject be commended to the favourable
Surveyors, consideration of the several Governments." That sends it to every-
Brodeur.) ^'
Eesolutiou Mr. BRODEUR: Would that include both the Federal and the
XVI., p. ix. Provincial Governments?
CHAIRMAJnT : Yes, they are the examining authority.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is a pious wish and nothing
else.
CHAIRilAJN' : The subjects for to-morrow are Naturalization, the
Extension of British Interests in the Pacific, Imperial Cables, and
there is the Notice which Mr. Deakin handed in this morning ; he also
wishes to refer again to the organization of the Colonial Office, and
I would like to get the final decision of the Conference with regard
to the publication of the proceedings. That as far as I know is
everything except two things, one, a Universal Penny Postage, on
which I wish to know what Sir Joseph Ward wishes to do, and the
two subjects which have been discussed at the Treasury — ^Double
Income Tax and the profit on silver coinage.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Then certainly we will not go through
all that programme to-morrow.
CHAIRMAN : A good many of them are quite short.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: But a good many of them would be
long.
CHAIRM.VN : I do not know how we are to go through them any
other day.
Adjourned to to-morrow at half-past 10 o'clock.
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 513
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
9th Mav.
1907.
FOURTEENTH DAY. Fourteenth
Day.
Held at the Colonial Office, Downixg Street,
Thirsday, 9th May, 1907.
Present :
The Eight Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President).
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakix, Prime Minister of the Com-
monwealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyxe, K.C.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
New Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape
Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Right Honourable Sir Robert Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minis-
ter of Newfoundland.
The Honourable F. R. Moon, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Lofis Botha, Prime Minister of the
Transvaal.
The Right Honourable Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamen-
tary Under Secretary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackav, G.C.M.G., KC.I.E., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G., K . , „
Mr. G. W. Johnson. C.M.G.. [^"'"^ Secretanes.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also Present:
The Right Honourable D. Lloyd George, M.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, C.B., Permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fox, C.B., Comptroller-General of the Commer-
cial, Statistical, and Labour Department of the Board of
Trade.
5S— 3.3
514
COLOMAL COXFERENCE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907.
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ilr. G. J. ST.4XLEY, C.M.G., of the Board of Trade.
The Eight Honourable Sydney Buxtonv, M.P., Postmaster-Gen-
eral.
Mr. H. Babixgtox Smith, C.B., C.S.I.. Permanent Secretary to
the Post Office. '
The Right Honourable Herbert Gladstone, M.P., Secretan- of
State for the Home Department.
Sir Mackenzie D. Chalmers, K.C.B., C.S.I., Permanent Secre-
tary to the Home Office.
Mr. J. Pedder, of the Home Office.
The Right Honourable H. H. Asquith, M.P.. Chancellor of the-
Exchequer.
:Slv. W. Blain. C.B., of the Treasury.
Imperial
Surtax ou
Foreign
Imports.
IMPERIAL SURTAX ON FOREIGN IMPORTS.
CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, the first resolution ou the Agenda is
one that was submitted yesterday by Mr. Deakin. Mr. Lloyd
George has been good enough to attend at some inconvenience, as
he is due in the House of Commons at half-past eleven, so perhaps
it will be possible to expedite the proceedings as much as possible
in order that he may leave.
Mr. DEAKIN: Lord Elgin and gentlemen: In order to permit
us to enjoy the inestimable advantage of hearing the President of
the Board of Trade without any loss of the time at his disposal in
listening to me^ I will confine m.vself in submitting this resolution,
to a very few general remarks. I think his cross-examination yes-
terday helped to elucidate the matter very well. If I iinderstanj
the position, what we have arrived at is this. His Majesty's Gov-
ernment for various reasons says that an.v consideration of trade
preference is impossible, that nothing is to be done in that direc-
tion. That disposes of one of the branches of the means which we
favour as tending to promote Imperial unity — the same unity in
times of peace and in industrial matters as are necessarily required'
for self-preservation in times of war. From the same motives,
therefore, we now proceed to some allied propositions which make-
for preference of British citizens by British citizens, of British pur-
chasers by Briti.sh sellers, and of British consumers by British pro-
ducers. We gather generally that on this question, at all events,
His ^rajesty's Ministers in this country have an open mind. In-
deed, there were sympathetic references made both by the Chancellor
of the Exche(iuer and the President of the Board of Trade to these-
other means of facilitating intercourse, increasing inter-lmperial
trade, and obtaining the advantages which flow from those very
desirable developments.
We seem to be agreed that something has to be done to provide
increased facilities for communication by mail steamers, with their
attendant increased facilities of communication for travellers; im-
proved cable <'ouimunication which means cheaper cable conununica-
tion and more of it; the lowering of such charges as those levied in the
Suez Canal, with which Sir Joseph Ward has exhaustivel.v dealt, and
kindred propositions, which, raising no fiscal question, imply the ex-
tension and enhancement of our present means of communication
and trade. The great advantage of this development, especially of
coLoyiiL coxferexcf:. imi
515
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
cominunication. is that it benefits both ends and any intemieidate
dominions. It cannot be said that the Mother Country is not her-
self most deeply interested in this question, even if for the moment
we looked upon the ifother Country as severe in her special interests
from her Dominions over the Sea. Here is the centre of all com-
munication; every mode of communication has shares of its benefits
and confers the greater share in this country. Consequently, the
money expended on improving means of communication, whether by
ship or by cable, are directly to the advantage of the industries and
the people of this country. They are also advantageous at the other
end to our interests. Now, I think, in matters of communication
our differences in population are measured by the proportionate gain
which accompanies them, or, in other words, that the expenditure of
the Mother Country in such matters, if in proportion to its popula-
tion, would at least be met by proportionate benefits from this
means. So also in the case of cables and of the general charges im-
posed on British commerce, not only those levied at the Suez Canal,
but any others which tend to diminish the full use of present oppor-
tunities. They may be assessed either by population or trade. Hav-
ing got to that stage, the next question is : How shall such propo-
sitions be given effect to? How shall they be realised? What con-
crete shape shall they assume? It has always been possible for in-
dividual Dominions, or several together, to approach the British
Government or each other in regard to postal contracts, or in re-
lation to cables, by going the length even of State ownership to pro-
vide for conjoint action. I think that on the whole, speaking gen-
erally, the postal contracts which have been made have been well
worth the money expended upon them — exceptions excepted — and that
they still continue to be well worth the money spent upon them,
although the mere postal interest is, if anything, less than it ever
was before. It is always tending to become less, so great are the
other advantages associated with the use of swift and up-to-date
steamers with their advantages for the travelling of persons and for
the carriage of goods which can afford to pay rather higher freights.
These count really for very much in modem postal contracts. We
have come to that stage when I understand His Majesty's Govern-
ment are prepared to consider propositions of this sort, biit if they
are considered only in an individual fashion with the particular
Dominions concerned, we shall have made no advance on the method.s
whieh have l>een employed for many years past. Surely the oppor-
tunity has come when we can make a real advance on those methods.
Without this Conference, and without more than a general discus-
sion, something may be done now to help us all after this Confer-
ence. Is not our duty to seize the opportunity while we are here
to consider the means by which the consideration of inter-Imperial
business questions may be made more pressing and immediate as
well as practical ? This resolution suggests one means to that end —
the means originally proposed by Mr. Hofmeyer, afterwards further
developed by Sir George Sydenham Clarke, and I think further sim-
plified in the proposal which I now lay before this Conference. This
implies first of all some fund out of which we can finance any use-
ful general agencies. Next, after creating a fund, although that in-
verts the usual order of proceedings to some extent — while obtaining
it you draw your representatives together for the special purpose of
dealing in a simple business fashion with a series of business pro-
Fouiteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
58— 3.3i
Slfi
COLONIAL CONFERESGE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mar,
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
De&kin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
positions which may refer to any one of the things I have men-
tioned, or to any other projects of the same character which are re-
garded as of Imperial importance, and to which two or more gov-
ernments, counting the United Kingdom and the parts of the Em-
pire represented, may be able and may desire to combine for the com-
mon good. The representatives will meet for that practical purpose,
sift these business proposals from a business standpoint, closely ex-
amine their cost, carefully consider the returns to be obtained, and
look at all the associated consequences, and then prepare schemes,
some of which will interest only the United Kingdom and a particu-
lar dominion, others the United Kingdom and two or more, others
can perhaps be devised which would interest them all. Then those
propositions require to be submitted to the Legislatures affected
before they can be endorsed. So that what we get Ts, first of all, a
fund; next the expert consideration on a business basis of the means
of employing that fund. So when the several Parliaments came
to deal with it they would be fully equipped to judge these propo-
sitions, to accept or reject them as they please, or perhaps modify
them by referring them back, the proportionate contributions of each
being scrutinised by each party. It is not necessary to work that
out now in detail. At all events, we should be face to face with the
certainty of having money to sp?nd for Imperial purposes, and prac-
tical proposals how to spend it after thorough examination had satis-
fied the different Legislature?. I can see no interference with self-
government, or with fiscal policy. First of all, the amount suggested
by Sir G. Sydenham Clarke is only one per cent., and that amount
need not be levied on the gonds, but provided by contribution.
Mr. TVLNSTOX CHURCHILL: By subvention.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, so that the fiscal question cannot possibly
arise. I see the President's estimate yesterday was quite correct.
It is reckoned roughly speaking, on a recent year at 4,60O,OO0Z. — it
would be higher this year when every return is higher — but, taking
it roughly, four and a half millions one year with the other, as a
rule, would be likely to be made available on that scale. You are
not obliged to spend that each year, but could carry it on, if neces-
sary, and accumulate it for a pnrticular purpose, either for a series
of expenditures year by year for the one purpose, or by a capital out-
lay. I need not go into details. I think I have made the general
sense quite plain. It is to bring us to a point, if possible, and to
give a positive character if we can and a direct impulse to these
means of action already approved by the Government. I think
there is a great deal to commend this, or I should not lay it before
the ('onfr-renee. .Mlow me to say that not only have I no pro-
prietary rights in the proposition, but if I had, I should recognise
that this was not a developed plan to stand upon at all. Any
amendment which will make it more effective, and any reshaping of
it which would accomplish the same end, would commend itself to
me. It would only then become a question of degree, which was the
speediest and most practicable form to give it. I am not wedded to
it. But we do want, as it seems to me, some i.icans of concen-
trating the consideration of .ill the legislatures \ipon these Imperial
problems.
■Mr. T.LOYD GEORGE: T should like to know something about
vour idea of the administration of the fund.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
517
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DE AKIN : If the contribution of a particular Dominion were
so many hundreds of thousands of pounds, shillings and pence, the
arrangement would not be that that amount should be spent merely
upon the Dominion in question, but the principle observed would be
that practically to all intents and purposes each community would
control and see expended the amount of its contribution with its own
consent.
:Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Do you include Imperial defence
among "Imperial purposes"?
Mr. DEAKIN : Not these Imperial purposes, though that was the
original proposal. Mr. Hofmeyr put Imperial defence first. That
was afterwards deflected to industrial proposals of this sort, because
defence was found to raise a great fnany difficult questions; even so
ardent an enthusiast for Imperial defence as Sir George Sydenham
Clarke abandoned that side of the proposal and devoted himself to
this kind of proposal. My idea, therefore, is that practically the
whole sum contributed by the United Kingdom should be disposed
of by the Parliament of the United Kingdom as it approved schemes,
speaking roughly, to that extent. Certainly none of its money
could be expended on anything else without its consent. Without
requiring the fund to be kept to a shilling or a penny, each Parlia-
ment would control its own contribution and require to give its own
consent to its use.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Supposing the contributions of
any particular parties to this figreement were not expended in a
given year.
Mr. DEAKIN: Carry them forward.
Mr. WINSTON CHUECHILL: Or supposing a proposal was
made that they were to be expended in a particular way, and the
Parliaments refused to ratify it, the sum would be carried over and
roll on.
Mr. DEAIv^IN : Accumulated until some project was arrived at
which met with the approval of that particular legislature or until
the agreement to make such a levy expired. This is very far from
being an Imperial federation, very far from creating a body having
authority either to raise money or spend money after it is raised.
It is quite apart from any proposition to interfere with self-govern-
ment. I admit that at once, and also admit that any endeavour to
bring about co-operation in this way, when a number of legislatures
are concerned, is open to all the criticism suggested by our knowl-
edge of the difficulty of setting them to act together. But we give
them at least a means and motive to act together ; we bring proposals
before them and put the responsibility on the proper shoulders. We
enable their electorates to say whether they will refuse to combine
for Imperial purposes or not. We cannot do more than appeal to
the people and the legislatures, and put the responsibility on those
who decline to co-operate. As it seems to me, the great value of
this proposition or any similar proposition is first, that it points to
action, and nest, to practical action. It favours immediate action,
and if that action is not taken and that co-operation is not brought
about, it puts the responsibility on the right shoulders. Let us
know which are tlie peoples who refuse to act and why they refuse
to act with their kindred. These are business propositions, and will
have no party character. To cheapen a cable or make a new cable,
Foarteenth
nay.
9th May.
1907.
Imperial
Surtax OB
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
518
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
Fourteenth
DaT.
9th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
establish or not establish a new line of steamers, are business pro-
positions which do not involve any party quarrel between the legis-
latures or parties concerned. They can only say, "this is not suffi-
" eiently remunerative; that is not sufficiently practical; we are
"paying; too much for it; here is a better scheme." The whole con-
sideration would turn upon questions of pounds, shilling's, and pence.
Such projects would not involve fiscal policy or impair self-govern-
ment, but iirovide a means for common action, and in that way bring
pressure to bear in favour of action. I do not discuss who pays the
tax, how proportions are to be established, or anything about all
those questions of detail. But, in order to fulfil my undertaking,
I conclude with this brief exposition, and will answer questions as
well as I can, if asked to make it complete,
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I am ex-
ceedingly obliged to Mr. Deakin and the Conference, for allowing
me to take this matter first, because I have my Patents Bill in the
House of Commons, and have to attend to the piloting of it through
Committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speech last week, stated
very clearly that the Government were quite prepared to consider,
and to consider favourably, with a view to action, any workable
scheme for improving Imperial inter-communications, and I under-
stand that this proposal of Mr. Deakin's is a response to the apijeal
Mr. Asquith made for a workable scheme. As Mr. Deakin has put
it, it is a business proposition.
The first tiling I point out — is that this is not exactly Mr. Hof-
meyr's proposal, and I do not thinlc it is Sir George Sydenham
Clarke's proposal.
3Ir. DEAKIN: No; both of them had in mind an Imperial
Council.
:Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, but from another very important
point of view Sir George Sydenham Clarke's proposal, and ifr, Hof-
meyer's, were, I thought, more or less on the same lines. I under-
stand that the.v proposed that a fund should be raised for Imperial
purposes, but first amongst the Imperial purposes they placed the
question of Imperial defence.
Mr. DEAI\IN : Sir George Sydenham Clarke, in the latest de-
velopment I have seen of his proposal in one of your reviews, with-
drew the proposal for defence altogether.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Do you know »nat reasons he
gave?
Mr. DEAKIN: The note T liave of what he said was "that the
" difficulty of dealing with naval defence on an Imperial basis is ver.v
" great. The Nav.v alone stands in the position of being a uluqui-
" tons guardian and a ju-oof of Empire, but its functions are in-
" adecpiately understood at home, and far from being realised in
" Great Britain and the idea of an Imperial Navy to which all con-
" tribute, must, for the present, be abandoned," That was said in a
speech when he was Governor of Victoria, at Melbourne,
:Nrr. LLOYD GKOR'.K: T only point out that Imperial defence
was an essential part of jhe scheme put forward b.v ^Ir. Ilofmeyr,
and I thought by Sir George Clarke when he proposed a levy of this
kind. Otherwise they would not have dreamt of raising a sum of
5,000,000/. merely fnr the purpose of cables and matters of that sort.
COLONIAL CO\FERENCE, 1901
519
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: I mt-roly suggest 1 per cent, as he did.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But that is a rather important element
for us. If Tmijerial defence were part of the scheme, ii VkOuld be
an admirable business proposition for us, because the contribution
of the Colonies in proportion to population is something like one
third of ours. We, at the pre.«ent moment, are contributing about
33,000,000?. to the Imperial Xavj-. I forget what the Colonies are
subscribing; it is something like half a million. So, as a business
proposition it would be a very admirable one for us because, if the
money is to be brought into a general fund, and we are to divide
it in these proportions, we should get about seven or eight millions
of money out of it towards Imperial defence. But that I do not
gather to be Mr. Deakin's idea, which is that this money should be
spent purely for the purpose of improving transport communication
and cables and matters of that kind. That is a very desirable
object in itself, as I have already stated, but I do not want to enter
upon tliat again ; I adhere to everything I said before. Mr. Church-
ill points out, too, that the establishment in the Colonies of a service
corresiwmding to our consular service in foreign countries is another
scheme which has for its object the development of the trade of the
Empire as a whole. But what does this proposal of Mr. Deakin's
really mean '. It means that the United Kingdom would contribute
4.500.000/. My figure was correct yesterday, but I over-estimated the
contribution of the self-governing Colonies, and I find that the Aus-
tralian Commonwealth would contribute 100,000?., Xew Zealand 20,-
000/.. Canada 400,000/. — although the population of Canada is only
about 1,. 500,000 above that of the Commonwealth, they would con-
tribute four times as much — Newfoundland would contribute 6,000/.;
Cape Colony would contribute 40,000/. Xatal would contribute 26,-
000/. Xow, it is obvious that is not merely an rmfair. but a grossl.v
unfair, contribution as between the ifother Country and the Colo-
nies.
Mr. DEAKIX: But each spends its own money.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: And it is also an unfair distribution of
burdens as between one Colony and the other.
ilr. DEAKIX : Each spends its own money.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We do that now, and are doing it now.
We are sjiending 33,000.000/. upon Naval defence. As I said before,
we are willing, if there is a working scheme put forward, to assist
in developing communications. But this seems to me to be an un-
fair, imjust, and unbusinesslike response to the appeal made by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
!Mr. DEAKIX : Although you vote your own money for your own
purposes ?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But then I do not see the object.
Either this means what it says, or it does not. We are to pay 4,500,-
000/. and the Cape 40,000/.
Dr. SMARTT : The foreigner pays, and we do not.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : If we really drag the fiscal question into
it, I do not think we shall come to an end. You are to find 40,000?.
and Canada is to find 400,000/. You may depend upon it, if you
or Canada thought you could get an extra 40.000/. or 400,000/. out of
the foreigner, surely you would try to get it. I do not doubt that
Fourteenth
Dar.
9th ilay,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
520
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
Fourteenth
Daj.
9th Mav,
;907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
at all. But no doubt you have already gone to the limit — the
highest point at which you think that revenue is consistent with im-
posing burdens on somebody else. However, I do not want to enter
into that.
Now, take the benefits to be derived out of it. I am certain there
would be a very considerable benefit to the Empire as a whole; we
would benefit, the Colonies would benefit, each individually, and the
Empire, as a whole, would be the richer for it. I am confident of
that. But the experience of Canada has proved that, while prefer-
ence has undoubtedly stimulated trade between the Mother Cotuitry
and the Dominion, the relative effect on Canadian export trade, as a
whole, has been much greater than that on the export trade of the
United Kingdom. The only advantage of this proposal, if I may
say so, is this : I think that it is useful as furnishing almost with
mathematical precision Mr. Deakin's ideas as to the proportion of the
burden of Imperial preference which should be borne by the Mother
Country and by the self-governing Colonies respectively.
Mr. DEAKTN: Pardon me, I do not think it has the slightest
relation to it.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : This is how it works. We are to con-
tribute 4,50O,000Z. ; the self-governing Colonies are to contribute all
of them put together tinder 600,000L I said yesterday we should
have to put down 51. for every 11. the Colonies put down. I was
wrong. We should have to ptit down 71. 10s. for every 11. provided
by the Colonies.
Mr. DEAKIN: On this year's returns or what year?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: On the returns of 1905. That I think
is a very unfair and improper proportion for the Mother Country to
be asked to bear. I mean that we should get half the benefit with
sevenfold the burden.
Mr. DEAKIN: Who said half the benefit?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Preference invariably means that. It
is a greater development for the trade of the Colonies than for ours.
It would be an advantage to us, but not the same advantage to us
as to the Colonies.
Mr. DEAKIN: Surely you are applying your reading of one par-
ticular preference by means of reduced duties in your favour, to
cable services, mail services, and services of that kind undertaken
each on its own merits. There is no proportion and no connection
one with the other.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am porfeetly certain of this: it would
mean a good deal more for the trade of the Colonies than for us. I
am not putting it as an argument against you, but on the contrary
as an argument in favour of it.
Mr. DEAKIN: A cheap cable service cannot mean just as much
in value to a small dominion as to this country.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, it means that we should shift our
trade very largely, and I think that would be an advantage from the
Imperial point of view. Instead of trading to a certain extent
witli, for instance, the Argentine, we should trade with you. The'
benefit from the Imperial point of view would be great. You would
develop your trade enormously. All I say in a proposition of that
COLOXIAL COXFERENGE, 1907
521
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
sort is that you ought to contribute at any rate equally — I am not
putting it higher than that.
Dr. JAMESON : You are going to take the trade by this pro-
position from the Argentine to the British Colonies. By so much
as you transfer it, the less will be the money you will pay to this
fund, the fund will be smaller.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is another point.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But to what extent?
Dr. JAMESON: Exactly to the extent you say.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE: To the extent of one per cent. Our
imports of manufactures would be practically unaffected.
Dr. JAMESON : It is on the manufactures you introduced into
this country.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, practically unaffected by a pro-
posal of this kind.
Dr. JAMESON : That brings in the point that you will probably
make them yourselves.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is quite a different question.
Dr. JAMESON: Not different, merely a bigger part of the same
question.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But the proposition as it stands at the
present moment, is that we should, if we prefer it, make an equiva-
lent contribution instead of levying one per cent, on our imports
from foreign countries. That means upon the present basis of our
fiscal policy a contribution of 4,500,0001. as against 600,000Z. by the
self-governing Colonies. I do not think the thing is workable for a
moment.
Mr. DEAKIN : May I say that I am not altogether surprised at
the nature of the reply, but entirely surprised at the line of argu-
ment which has been pursued. I have never heard more fallacious
and transparently inapplicable comparisons applied from one set of
circumstances to a different set of circumstances than I have just
listened to. I must say that to attempt to take the consequences
of alterations in our several schedules of duties as a measure of what
you are to gain by some unknown and yet undefined mail service or
cable service improvement, a reduction in canal dues, or anything
of that sort, is perfectly futile. If such reasoning carries conviction
to anyone, it certainly does not to me. I laid no stress upon the
particular amount of 1 per cent. I tcfok that from Sir G. Sydenham
Clarke for the purpose of launching the proposition, as I thought
I carefully explained. But the worst fallacy of all is, that because
each country is to dedicate a certain amount towards Imperial pur-
poses, therefore, of course, there must be some proportion either of
population or other proportion between those amounts. There is no
necessity for any proportion whatever in the amount paid by each
to its fund while that fund remains, as I said, under the control of
the people who raise it and who spend it only as they thinlv fit for
their own interest. If they do not think a project is in their own
interest, they do not spend it ; if they do think it is for their own in-
terest, they spend what may be necessary upon it. They do that
only when they believe the benefits to be gained will reward them for
their own investment of their own fund.
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
COLOSIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourteenth :\rr. WIXSTOX CHIJRCHILL : But meanwhile they would have
9th ^av *" ''''^**? *^^ *'"^ ^^ money every year by the taxation of the .vear,
1907. " * and if they do not spend it, it would accumulate steadily in a fund.
Mr. F. R. ilOOR : Why accumulate it ? You could earmark it.
Mr. DEAKIX : I have only put forward this method of arriving
at an Imperial fund in a tentative experimental way. As I thought
I took care to say, I am. not wedded to this particular form of con-
tribution. What I want to see are Imperial contributions for Im-
perial purposes, to be approved by each Legislature, and I take it
that the fact that each Legislature had to give its approval to the
expenditure of its own money is quite a sufficient guarantee that it
will be expended fairly according to the judgment of those compos-
ing that Legislature. In fact, that is the way we spend all our money
now.
Mr. WIXSTOX CHURCHILL: Then, under your proposal, there
would be no obligation for any of the parties to the union to make
any payments in pursuance of the agreements into which they have
entered.
'Slv. DEAKIX : The obligation on each party would be to set
apart whatever sum was mutually agreed upon for Imperial purposes
for a given period, or until the arrangement was altered by consent.
That would be binding for the period named, but whether any or all
of that fund shall be applied, to what purpose it shall be applied,
and in what proportion as compared to the other contributors it shall
be applied, would rest wholly under the control of the Legislature con-
cerned. So that this proposition would do nothing more, if adopted,
than indicate one means by which revenue might be raised for Im-
perial purposes by all the Dominions, unless they chose to substitute
equal subventions; I do not put it any higher than that. I said this'
or some similar proposal would give you an Imperial fund lor busi-
ness purposes that would be dealt with in a business-like way. When
I have said that it seems to me I have disposed of the whole of the
argument of the President of the Board of Trade. He persists in
.assuming that I propose that these Legislatures should in some mys-
terious manner be moved to vote their own money for unbusiness-
like proposals and in unfair proportions. We are to get all the
benefit and the Ignited Kingdom is to bear all the loss of all our
agreements whatever they may be. I had no such proposition in
my mind, and would not support a proposition whii'h would work
out in that fashion. It is left to each Legislature to decide how
they should spend their money, and how much money they should
spend. Wliat better .security can there be? Again, even if the
arg\unent had discovered a defect in the particular system of raising
the money, it does not point to a defect in the principle I am con-
cerned to maintain. This is, that if we remain as we are, dependent
upon indivichial negotiations between one or two governments con-
cerned in occasional arrangements, we shall he in no better position
after this Conference than we were before it.
I have siibiuittccl this in order to see if we can discover some
means by which an Imperial fund may be raised for Imperial pur-
poses, without diminishing in any way the self-governing powers of
the different dominions. They are to remain just as free and in-
de|K>ndent in their financial control of their portions of this fund as
they are now. Tin se portions wotild be enrmnrked as the total fund
COI.OMAL COXFEHEXCE, 1907
523
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
■would bo parinarked. No one else could po;ii;-li upou it. But they
would have the impulse of a common Imperial movement and the
■control individually of a collective Imperial fund, if such can be
raised, and then the responsibility first of sending their representa-
tives to consider busine.ss propositions in a business-like way, and
then of adopting, rejecting, or amending these propositions. Wliat
is there unfair or tinconstitutional in that? May T once more say
that the whole criticism of the Presiilent of the Board of Trade as-
sumes the most unbusincss-like propositions to be considered in the
most unbnsiness-liko way. and voted for by the several legislatures
effected to their own undoing and for their own loss?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, this pro-
position to me is not new at all. It is quite familiar. It is the old
Hofmeyer proposal with a new suit of clothes on, and the modifica-
tion which has been introduced by Jlr. Deakin does not alter at all
the fact that this proposition has been now for some 15 years before
the British Empire and has not commended itself, so far as I know,
to any one of the component parts of it.
If I understand the meaning of this resolution aright, ft would
simply mean this — ^Ir. Deakin will correct me if I am wrong — and
this seems to be the logical consequence of it, that it would imply
that the British Government would have to pay a duty of 1 per cent,
upon their imports, and that it woidd be left to the other legislatures
to supply the same amount if they please.
Mr. DEAKIN : No, the intention is that any member, the United
Kingdom, or any other, could make an equivalent contribution.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Exactly, but what is to determine the
•equivalent contribution if it be not the contribution of the United
Kingdom ?
Mr. DEAKIN: A calculation of 1 per cent, upon the foreign
trade of each.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Exactly, but it is not a calculation.
This resolution is : "This Conference recommends that in order U
■' provide funds for developing trade, commerce, the means of com-
"munication, and those of transport within the Empire, a duty of 1
"per cent, upon all foreign imports shall be levied or an 'equivalent
■" contribution made by each of its Legislatures. After consultation
" between their representatives in Conference the common fund shall
■" be devoted to co-operative projects approved by the legislatures af-
" fected with the general purpose of fostering the industrial forces of
" the Empire so as to promote its growth and unity.'" What is to
•determine this equivalent to be contributed by the different Legis-
latures, if it be not implied by the contribution of the 1 per cent,
levied by the United Kingdom. The L^nited Kingdom would levy
1 per cent, upon its imports which would produce so many millions — •
10,000,000/., 12,000,000/., or 20,000,000/.— and then the Legislatures
would contribute an equivalent to that. That seems to me a very
serious olijection to this scheme.
I pass from this consideration and say that in its shape I do not
think it cuuld be acceptable to anybody here. But I look now to
the puri)ose which Mr. Deakin has in view of creating a general
fund. I objected the other day when the matter was brought to our
attention that in Canada we would not touch our tariff at all. We
have just spent considerable labour upon it. and would leave it as it
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May.
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
524
COLONIA-L COSFEREUkCE, 1901
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mar,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax ou
Foreign
Imports.
(Sir Wilfrid
Laurief.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
is. But Mr. Deakiu says: "Then contribute as you please." There
is objection to it, as I pointed out. I do not see what amount we
are to contribute to this matter unless we take the contribution of 1
per cent, by the British Treasury by means of this imposition.
I come now to the second part. You want to create an Imperial
fund. If Mr. Deakin permits me with all deference to say so this
is a very hazy proposition to create a general fund for certain pur-
poses, indefinite, undetermined, and as to which we shall have to
cudgel our brains as to how to employ the money thus raised. I pre-
fer to come directly to the point. There are Imperial projects of
magnitude which we can consider. Cables are one; improvement in
navigation is another. If we agree on this particular point before
we separate that it would be an advantage to create more cables and
add to the cables we have already or extend the Imperial cable we
have. For my part, I am quite ready to consider the proposition
that each of those interested at all events — perhaps South Africa or
other parts would not be — should agree to contribute a certain
amount. Or if you have a scheme, for instance, for improving
navigation and communication between all parts of the British Em-
pire, a scheme which seema to me most worthy of consideration, it
would be a stronger bond of union at the present time than anything
we could devise. If we had a rapid up-to-date line of communica-
tion by which we combined the whole of the British Empire here
represented, it would do more towards unity than anything you can
devise. For anything of that sort I am prepared to say — and the
people of Canada will be ready I am sure to say so too — that we will
put our hands into our pockets for the promotion of such an object,
as would Australia also, and New Zealand I believe. Therefore I
say it is better to come directly to an issue, and take the cable issue,
say, this year, another issue next year, and so on. But I cannot
agree with the proposal of Mr. Deakin, and I give my view in all
franlsness on this matter.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, my sympa-
thies are entirely in the direction Mr. Deakin is urging, and I want,
with him, to do eveiything in my power to assist in the bringing
about the preferential trade within the Empire, because — and I do not
want to go over the same ground again — I think it is in the best
interests of the Empire. The more I think of it, the more I do not
like the idea of a surtax, for more than one reason. \^niy? Lender
this proposition, if 1 per cent, surtax were levied, it would bring
from New Zealand 2,000?. a year. From the point of view of assist-
ing in bringing New Zealand intci closer union with the Old Coun-
try, in my view, 20,000/. a year is a mere drop in the bucket, and
quite inadequate, so instead of 1 per cent, as our contribution we
would probably have to have 5 per cent, or 2i per cent, to produce
something greater, whether that be .50,000/., 60,000/., 70,000/., or per-
haps 100,000/. a year, to do what we require to do in connection with
the important matter of shipping connection alone in order to bring
our country closer to the Old ^Yorld. Once T, as representing New
Zealand, commit myself to this proposition of ;^^r. Hofnieyr's, or
rather 'Nfr. Deakiu's altered one, I am going to embark in an un-
known futiire undertaking as far as New Zealand goes, with the un-
doubted sequence to this proposal of a higher rate than 1 per cent,
being imposed upon our country. I am not prepared at present to
do that. In New Zealand, we have had some experience of surtaxes.
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907 525
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
1 recall right back in my own early liistory in Parliament in our Fourteenth
own country the fact that the Government of that time imposed a Day.
2i per cent, overriding duty upon all articles imported into the coun- ' 1907 •^'
try, dutiable and free, for the purpose of assisting the revenue gen-
erally. It was a most disliked tax. Though there was not uni- Imperial
versal approval given to it, and no departure from the principle of Forrign"
those who held Free Trade views, it was looked upon probably as an Imports,
expedient and at the time necessary thing to do, but it had not been (Sir Joseph
in operation twelve months when all sides were very strongly opposed Ward.)
to it, and the Government of the day had to take the tax off. It
was one of the first things the Government of which I was a mem-
ber then, and am now, had to remove. Having supported the put-
ting into operation of that surtax in New Zealand, it was found to
be exceedingly unpopular amongst the mercantile and farming world
and amongst all classes in our country, and we had to take it off.
I take those figures given by ilr. Lloyd George for the purpose of
my argument. No doubt they are prefectly correct ; 20,000/. a year
for a contribution to a fast mail service from New Zealand to Lon-
don would be quite inadequate, and instead of 1 per cent. I am per-
fectly certain our Colony would have to make provision for a very
much larger charge. I am not discussing the principle, but the
working of it out from the point of view of what I can foresee would
arise in New Zealand. Anoth'>r thing why I do not like it — and
this is the point which, since it was mentioned .vesterday, has been
passing through mv mind from time to time. We have already in
New Zealand impos?d n higher duty against foreign importations
than again-t British on certain articles, ranging from 20 per cent.,
and some articles are admitted fre? from England with a dut.v put
against things from foreign countries on our free list independent
of that. . We are anxious to turn the current of foreign trade to
Great Britain and the Colonies. In this next session of Parlia-
ment, to which I am going back, we are submitting the revision of
our customs tariff, and this policy will underlie our tariff to some
extent. If we succeed in stopping the importation of goods from
foreign countries who give us nothing in return for what we do now
in the way of remission of duties, by treaties, or anything else, upon
whom are we going to levy oiir 1 per cent, or whatever we decide to
put on in the way of a surtax? We are going to put it every time
against the Britisher. The object Mr. Deakin has in view I am in
sympathy with, and would sincerely like to be able to support him
in this proposal, but it would, as it occurs to me, have an iniurious
effect, and as it struck me when first I heard the proposal hrre I
really do think it would tell against us in the advocacy of prefer-
ential trade with different portions of the British possessions in the
future.
I think we ought to have something definite if possible before
we leave this Conference vipon the important matters of inter-com-
munication and other subjects I referred to. and I should like to
hear the British Government say they are prepared to provide, say
half a million of money as a contribution towards these matters,
the Colonies in turn coming in with a fair proportion, the whole
amount not to be put up unless we gave" our fair proportion towards
bringing about an Tmp?rial and Colonial mail service, improved cable
service, and so on. With all deference to those responsible for the
outward traffic from England through the Suez Canal to the Colo-
nies, I suggest it would be a good thing to have a bount.v system or
526 COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourteenth something of the kind, or a percentage of contribution to the steam-
9th ^Mav ^'* carrying- cargoes. I am not suggesting anything in tlic matter
1907. " of passengers because I think the practical side of getting our pro-
: ducts through the Suez Canal is altogether of greater importance
Surt^'x"on ^^^^ anything else we can suggest. If we could give a tonnage
Foreign contribution of some kind so as to make it possible for these tramp
Imports, steamers to work with Australia and New Zealand through that canal
^^'w ''^j^f'' — a contribution by way of bounty if yon like — I think would be a
very fine thing to do. If th> British Government would say that in
order to ensure a material reduction in the cost of cabling to Aus-
tralia and New Zealand they would divert all their traffic to the
Pacific cable for a period, provided it was done at a certain rate, and
if the other companies would come down to the same rate, a division
of the business could be given from the whole of us, and if a guar-
antee against loss to the shareholders in the Eastern Cable Company-
were given by the respective Governments, and of course to the Paci-
fic Cable Compnay, who have guaranteed the money for the Pacific
cable, you would be in a position to get low rates and bo able to do
an incalculable amount of good.
I know Mr. Deakin's sincerity and earnestness in trying to bring-
about Imperial unity in the way he has advocated, and I am anxious
to see something done; but I see difiiculties from the point of view
of New Zealand, and I would suggest to Mr. Deakin, as we have had
Tinanimity from the Colonies so far, that having elicited a discussion
on this matter it would be better not to take a vote. I do not want
to vote against him ; but from my knowledge of the way a surtax has-
operated in New Zealand and the uncertainty of my colleagues' views
upon the nuitter as well as of the New Zealand Parliament I am not
prepared to act in regard to a proposal which has a great underlying
principle in it, that is the overriding system of taxation; I would
not myself feel justified in supporting it. I am sorry I have to dis-
sent from ^fr. Deakin in this matter, but it is inevitable.
Dr. JAJIESON: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I am not going to
dissent from Mr. Deakin. I am fully in sympathy with everything
he has said here on the subject; but at the same time it is quite true,
as Sir Wilfrid Laurier said, this is too hazy and too complicated. I
take it what Mr. Deakin had in his mind was to try to take some
practical step forward.
^Ir. DKAKIN: Yes. It not tliis, what is the alternative
Dr. JAMESON: We Iisten<-<1 with the greatest pleasure to the
extremely sympathetic speech from Mr. Lloyd George when he had to
emphasise what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already told \is,
that our pet idea must be abandoned, but that there were all kinds of
stdisidiary matters that would help in the same direction. What I
was waiting for was some practicable scheme about' the subsidiary
matters, and still more for some practical suggestion as to the am-
ount of money which was going to be put tip to carry out the prac-
tical schemes, and no doubt ^Ir. Deakin having running in his mind
these two practical i)nip<isitions, brought this forward as a possible
scheme for getting the money to do some of these subsidiary things
which are i)roposed, and which we do not believe, but know, will help
towards our ideas.
Mr. I.I.OYI) GP'OIKil'^ : \i>u must have a scheme before .voii
cousiilci- the- nmncy part of it.
ror.oMM. coxFEKHycE, ino7
527
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Dr. JAilESON: It is a very useful thing- to have a fund to
draw upon for any scheme.
Mr. WI^^RTON rHURrTTTLL: TTavins a fund and then looking
for ohjects to spend it on was pithily doscribod the other day as
finding a biscnit in the street and then buying a dog to give it to.
Dr. JAMESON : As a matter of fact, there is a general scheme
which will cost money, and I believe I heard Mr. Lloyd George say
that, with a view to fostering trade within the Empire, he had already
been to the Chanoellor of the Exchequer to get money for the ap-
pointment of commercial experts.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I have been promised it since.
Dr. JAMESON: It requires money, but you said we will not stop
there; we will do other things which will require money.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I had my scheme first, and then I got
my money.
Dr. JAMESON: I hope you have your scheme now. ^Nlr. Deakin
is now going to suggest a way to you to get the money. I hope it was
not a mere general statement. We expect to get something more on
the lines suggested by Sir Joseiih Ward — subsidies to freights on
tramp steamers, and so on. This is merely a suggestion from Mr.
Deakin — not fixing himself to 1 per cent, or to lt^» per ceut. or n
decimal percentage at all, but a suggestion by which the fighting
forces might be provided.
I am really quite in accord with the general principle; but it is
possible, if Sir Joseph Ward's suggestion is adopted by the Govern-
ment, and we all round the table put our proportion, it might be un-
necessary to pass this, and I daresay ilr. Deakin woidd not then put
it to the vote at all.
Mr. F. R. MOOR: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, we have been con-
siderably edified by the sympathy that has been extended to us by the
Imperial Government, anvl the promise of what we may expect in the
furtherance of our Imperial ideas. But I think it would be greatly
to our advantage in bringing about something in the shape of some
fruit as regards this Conference, if the Imperial Government would
be a little more candid and let us know, in some practical way, the
steps they would take to bring about the object we all have in view.
I am loath to vote against a projwsition of this sort, which has at any
rate a practical ring about it with respect to providing a common
fund ; but when the Government meets us and tells us they have a
great deal of sympathy for what we are trying to do, and do not tell
us they have anything behind which they may suggest before we
break up, I think it would be in the interest of all if they would give
us some indication, in a practical way, of what they do propose or
would be prepared to consider. We have tried in various ways, but
we have been met by refusal, certainly, again I repeat in a very sym-
pathetic way. But that does not help us. We are here for business
and to promote our common interests, and we do want something
tangible, if possible, to take back to our Colonies. I do hope before
this resolution is put that Jlr. Lloyd George will indicate some way.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : What have you proposed, except some-
thing that would involve a change in our fiscal system ? Wliat prac-
tical proposals have you made that we have refusal ?
Mr. F. R. MOOR: I am not arguing that point, but we have
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
I'oreign
Imports.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
528
COLOSIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
<Mr. F. R.
Moor.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
brought forward proposals that have not been acceptable to the Home
Grovernment, and the Government have, at the same time, told us
they are very kindly disposed towards us, and that in some way they
would be only too glad to meet us if it fell in with the views of the
Imperial Government. Will the Imperial Government tell us how,
in some practical way, we can decide on some common resolution?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I thought we had done so.
Sir EGBERT BOND : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I am sorry I
cannot support the resolution proposed by Mr. Deakin. The position of
the Colony I represent in respect to imports and exports is entirely dif-
ferent from that of any other Colony in the Empire. For instance, our
exports to the United Kingdom only amount to 13 per cent, of our
total ; whereas these of Cape Colony amount to 95 per cent., New
Zealand 78, Australia 70, Natal 52, British Guiana 52,. and Canada
53. Our principal trade is with foreign countries. About 70 per
cent, of our exports go to the Mediterranean, and to South America.
I might say, further, that our average tariff taxation to-day is about
35 per cent., and I could not recommend to my Parliament an in-
crease of the tariff by even 1 per cent. Further, the importations
into the Colony are principally from foreign countries. One of our
importations is salt for fisherj' purposes and is obtained from Cadiz.
This at the present time passes in duty free, and the imposition, even
of 1 per cent., might not only lead to retaliation on the part of our
Spanish and Portuguese customers, but the tax would fall heavily
upon the very poorest of the population, namely, the fishermen. There
is another large foreign importation, namely, flour. Part of our im-
portation comes from Canada, but a considerable portion of it, highest
grades, comes from the United States of America. That now passes
in duty free, and the imposition of even 1 per cent, upon the principal
food of the poorest people of the Colony, would naturally be resented
and be regarded as oppressive. The other articles oi foreign impor-
tation, upon which the proposed tax would fall, would be meats, pork,
bacon, butter, sugar. Forty-five per cent, of the total imports of the
Colony consist of food, and these are derived to a large extent from
the United States of America. The policy of my Government is to
reduce the tax on articles of food. The fact then that a very large
proportion of our food supplies has to be imported from the United
States, and our fishery supply of salt from Cadiz, renders the posi-
tion of my Colony, as I have previously remarked, totally different
from that of any other Colony. Under these circumstances I regret
that I cannot support the proposal that is made.
Mr. DEAKIN : If I had taken fuller advantage of my opportuni-
ties when opening this debate instead of curtailing my remarks to
spare time for the Minister I sliould have avoided some of the criti-
cisms, even of my friend Sir Joseph Ward. If he looks at this pro-
position, ho will see I have suggested the 1 per cent, only as a
measure, so that it would be quite possible for New Zealand or any
State in a similar position not to impose the 1 per cent, at all or im-
pose any surtax. TTndcr the second clause of the first paragraph " or
an equivalent contribution made by each of the legislatures," it
would only be necessary for New Zealand to find her 20,000/., or what-
ever the sum is. from her own revenue, without a surtax at all. I
am sure that the misapprehension was due to my omission to ex-
plain the details of the proposition at length. I only submitted it, of
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
529
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
course, to assert or suggest a principle and not as a final proposition
which could not be amended. I admit, however, that Sir Joseph's
criticism and the criticism to which it has been subjected by others
show that this percentage upon foreign goods is open to serious criti-
cism. It is needless to prptond that it is not. But again it was the
same misreading of the resolution which led Sir Joseph to speak of
the possibility of the 1 per cent duty falling upon British goods in-
stead of upon loreign. That would not be possible under the terms of
this resolution at all. First of all, you need not have your surtax on
foreign goods unless you like; but you cannot have it on anything
else. You can take it out of general revenue. You can impose 1 per
cent, on anything except on foreign goods, and need not impose that
if you prefer some other means of finding the money.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, I see that is so.
Mr. DEAIQN: Sir Joseph's criticism was entirely sympathetic,
as was that of most other Colonial members of lue Conference.
Having regard to the general character of this resolution and the
nature of the subject, I had not even worked out the figures as to
what a 1 per cent, contribution was. I stated yesterday, and stated
again to-day, on several occasions that I put in the 1 per cent, instead
of leaving a blank, simply in order that the principle of co-operation
might be discussed. I mentioned that one-half per cent, might do
if this measure was thought proper. I do not waste the time of the
Conference on merely abstract resolutions. But it does appear to me,
as Mr. Moor very well put it, that we are likely to separate without
having come to practical conclusions. I thought it was wise, and
have not altered my opinion that it was necessary to submit some
broad proposition in order that wo might learn from the members
of the Government of the United Kingdom, whether they had in
their minds any scheme for Imperial action at all, or for an Imperial
fund other than the separate schemes which may be proposed from
time to time for a steamship service, or a cable service, or anything
of that character. I have not been able to elicit even that. On the
contrary, I have been met with the usual opposition criticism which
we hear so often in Parliament upon a proposition of this sort, when
the object is to hurry in conveniently out of the way. I do not object
to that. I am sufficiently accustomed to it. But I also appreciate its
motives. If the representatives of the Government here had really
in their minds any scheme at all, this would have been the time when
they could have triumphantly produced it and explained it. I do
not mean that they would have brought down details — but they ought
to have submitted a plan showing us some possibility of an advance
upon our present casual disunited methods of combining for parti-
cular purposes here and there. That imperfect method exists and will
exist. We do not lose it because we consider whether it cannot be
improved upon. My object was to insist upon the need for improve-
ment and only to suggest one means for its improvement. I was not
taking a course foreign to the purposes of this Conference, but strictly
in line with it. We have not succeeded in getting consideration for
preferential trade. I wanted to know if we could not get considera-
tion for something else which did not involve the fiscal principle at
all — some method of union for united action. This proposition may
be as faulty as you please. I drew it in terms sufficiently loose on
purpose. It has at least made our position here quite plain.
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Beakin.)
58—34
530
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
Fouiteeuth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Sir JOSEPH WARD: ilay I suggest altering the last part and
leaving the first part out, in order to try to get a decision in only a
general way to the effect that this Conference recommend the Legis-
latures affected with the general purpose of fostering the industrial
forces of the Empire so as to promote its growth and unity to provide
contributions with that object. If you move something like that,
and leave it to us to put amounts on our respective Estimates for the
consideration of our Parliaments, we are all right.
Mr. DEAKIN: I think there is a good deal to be said for what
you propose.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I do not want to propose it.
Mr. DEAEIN : I quite understand. But I am not complaining in
the least degree of any criticism that applies. I only say the attitude
of Ministers shows they have not made up their minds on this ques-
tion at all. They simply say : " Bring forward a particular proposal
and we will look at it." We knew that before. That is a very ad-
mirable attitude, the purely negative attitude they always have taken .
and always will take, and the attitude other ministers in the same
quandary always will take — I am not finding fault with that. I have
asked, " Can we do anything more ?" The answer is, " We cannot
" do anything more."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I never said anything of the sort. To
bring forward a proposal which will involve our contribiition of 4J
millions as against your 100,000/., with no scheme, no plan of spend-
ing, not a glimmer of an idea what the money is to go to but simply
saying, " We are to pool it, and until we can find something to spend
" it on, let it roll up " — if that is a scheme for a great commercial
Empire, I think it is a scheme pour rire, if I may say so. It is not
as if there was a definite plan, which is exactly what Mr. Asquith has
asked for and very properly asked for. He said he was prepared to
recommend the Treasury to find money. I go beyond that and say
I am perfectly willing for my part, after consultation with the Chair-
man and my colleagues, to subscribe to the suggestion made by Sir
Joseph Ward, and I go further than that and say we shall be in
favour of some systematic consultation between the representatives
of the Empire as to the best means for promoting the objects you
have in view. We must have a plan before we spend money. We
are spending enormous sums of money in the Empire now, and we
rcall.v want to know upon what we are going to spend these further
sums. We must not. first of all, resolve to spend, and then go fishing
for a scheme somewhere from here to Australia. Let us, first of all.
find our plan. I would not mind altering 'Mr. Deakin's resoluti<ui in
some way just to show our bona fides.
Mr. DEAKIN : You are now saying more than you did before.
:Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Really, it was very difficult in language
that wotdd pass the chair to express my view of this 4,500,000^
against the 600,000/.
Mr. DEAKIN : It was, if I may so, because you could not have
listened to my proposal, I did not dwell on the 4,500,000/. I said
over and over again that we can substitute anything — half per cent,
or anything else. It was insisted upon from the first that the amount
named was adopted as a mere convenience.
OILOMAL COXFEREyCE, 1907
531
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
:Nrr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is the very thing we have to dwell
upon.
Mr. UEAKIX: Cert:iinlj', when it is actually proposed, but at
this stage it is a proper thiug to notice and pass by, until the princi-
ple has been settled, and detail is taken in. hand.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Imperial defence is costing us some-
thing like 60,000,000?. at the present moment.
Mr. DEAIvIX: In moving this motion. I said over and over
again : '" As regards this particular amount, I have taken it because
•' I find it suggested in a s-clieme submitted by Sir George Sydenham
'■ Clarke." I said expressly I do not attach any special importance to
to that particular proportion. You are perfectly justified iu saying
all you did, to the effect that this particular amount will not do, and
thus dismissing it; I am not in any way concerned because that is
not the cardinal point.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The cardinal point is not to raise the
revenue first and find a plan afterwards.
Mr. DEAIvLX : That is quite another issue ; you are giving us
help now. You are beginning to meet my proposal. Now you state
you are prepared to accept a regular and systematic discussion of
business proposals.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Systematic consultation — stronger stiU.
Mr. DEAKIX : In saying that, you are coming to a positive pro-
posal, which is just what I want . You may tear my resolution to rags
and do what you please with its proportions and details if you accept
the i^rinciple of united action in some definite shape.
;Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I would suggest the following resolu-
tion : " This Conference recommends that in order to develop trade,
" commerce, the means of communication, and those of transport
" within the Empire, it is desirable that some means should be de-
" vised for systematic consultation between the members of various
" parts of the Empire for the pui-pose of considering co-operative
" projects for the general purpose of fostering the industrial forces
'■ of the Empire, so as to promote its grow-th and unity." These ends
have to be considered by exp :rt business men, and afterwards we
shall come in to find the means.
Mr. DEAKIX : That is a most distinct advance. It may not
come immediately to an,vthing because it is only a general provision,
but I quite feel that it is not fair to press the President of the Board
of Trade for anything expressed in pounds, shillings, and pence until
definite schemes are propoinided.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : You have no schemes. Schemes would
have to be considered very carefully. So far as I am concerned, I
have been seeing a good many shipowners, and I have realised what
great practical difficulties there are which must be overcome, and you
could not formulate a scheme in the course of the few days that are
at our disposal now. It would take a considerable time for consulta-
tion with all classes of people interested in our oversea trade.
Mr. DEAIvIN: I entirely agree. Be sure that there will be no
sparsity of projects; we are full of them. People are continually
making proposals for improvement of communications, and one thing
and another.
58— :34J
Fourteenth
Dav.
9th Mav,
1907. "
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
532
COLOyilL COJfFEREUfCE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : One thing- you have to do is to persuade
Australia to make a harbour where ships of a certain size can go in.
Your depth of water is only 28 feet draught. These huge ships will
not enter. That is one point a large shipowner has put to me, and I
said, " That is not for us ; it is for Australia."
Mr. DEAKIN : You are quite right. It is for us. Speaking from
memory he is a little out of date. They are blasting in Port Phillip,
and have been for the last 12 months, rock to a depth of 30 feet —
I think 32 to 35 feet in the entrance to Melburne. In Sydney har-
bour, as I understand, the entrance is deep enough already.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: But you cannot get alongside with a
ship over 28 feet.
CHAIRMAN: We need not have particulars.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I only give it as an illustration.
Mr. DEAKIN : I have no possible objection to any detailed criti-
cism of any possibilities, except to say that I did not put any pro-
posals forward of this vague character. But my suggestions are now
being met in the light I think they ought to have been met at first.
It is excellent to provide for expert consultation periodically. The
only thing is, cannot we go further before we part? I do not know
whether a question of this sort will come before the new secretariat
or whatever it is, or go to the Board of Trade. Are matters of prac-
tical business, propositions which are made from either one part or
the other of the Empire, to go through the secretariat or to tho
Board of Trade or to whom?
CHAIRMAN: May I say that I undertook at the beginning of
this Conference to endeavour to organise a secretariat ? I have not
had time since the Conference met, and I think you must really leave
me some scope.
Mr. DEAK.IN: This is not a question of organisation.
CHAIRMAN : It is really a question of organisation as to what
part of the business is to come through this secretariat in this office,
or what part may go through the Board of Trade. I have undertaken
the organisation of the secretariat.
Mr. DEAKIN : I do not think that is an answer.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Has not this Resolution now
proposed already been passed by the Conference on the day we dis-
cussed the organisation of the Conference — to have conferences on
matters of common interest every four years, and subsidiary confer-
ences held as often as necessary between any parties interested in
inter-Imperial or inter-Colonial questions? In what way does this
Resolution advance upon any proposal which the Conference has
already decided '.
Sir WILFRID LAURIEK: I would not press your motion to-
day, but have something njore concrete than that. With regard to
the motion made by Mr. Deakin with all due respect to the earnest-
ness with which he has pressed it, it seems to me an absolute depar-
ture from constitutional Kovcrnment. If there is anything which is
true in constitutional British Government it is this that you do not
provide money in advance for anything. Your proposal is to create
a general fund and then you find how you are to appl,v it afterwards.
If there is an object to be served, or work to be done, or something
COLONIAL COyPEREKCE, 1907
533
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of the kind which requires money, then we find the money; but your
scheme proposes that we should find the money in advance. That
seems to me au absohite departure from constitutional government.
Wlipre can you find a precedent for it? Where is it consistent 1
Call it a duty or a tax, after all it is money taken out of the people's
pocket, and you do it for a vague indefinite object. That is absolu-
tely contrary to constitutional government. If there is anything
true, it is that you do not take money from the people except for a
special object, and I object to your motion on this ground. I am not
quite satisfied with the motion of Mr. Lloyd George as it is very
indeterminate, and commits us to nothing. I hope before we separ-
ate we can find an actual scheme on which we can ask the contribution
of the British Government, and all or some of the Governments here
represented — some big scheme of communication amongst ourselves.
This is what you have in mind, yourself, Mr. Deakin. Therefore,
I think you should not propose the motion to-day.
Mr. DEAKIN: I take the proposed resolution of the President
of the Board of Trade as being drafted with the idea that instead
of allowing this matter to drop we should pass something and show
that something progressive is really intended. I quite agree that
was the motive, and appreciated it; but at the same time it is open
to the criticism which I myself was leading up to, that such a plan
involves consideration of the secretariat and the nature of the secre-
tariat, and of subsidiary Conferences. Consequently I do not press
for passing a resolution at all. What I want to get ii I can before
we leave, is a decision of this Conference on the question: Is it not
possible to do something more in the future than we have ever done,
in tlie way of providing- for practical business-like proposals making
for Imperial co-operation and unity of action being dealt with in a
business-like way? ilr. Lloyd George says very properly that, accord-
ing to his revision of my resolution, what may be termed a special
meeting or subsidiary Conference of experts will enable us to deal
with them. That is quite true and helpful. Is that the furthest
limit to which we can go? So far from thinking myself the person
specially endowed with ideas on this subject, I broached it in order
to obtain the assistance of others, in the expectation that they would
provide out of their greater experience more than I am able to sug-
gest at the present time. I am tied to nothing. Let us do something
definite so that when we leave the Conference, we can say with some
confidence : " We have not done the things we wanted, but we have
" at least made the way easier in future for any of those practical
" projects to be dealt with immediately without the delay which now
" invariably accompanies the correspondence in making even an ap-
" proach to joint action by our governments."
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: How is that not met by the
fourth clause of the instrument governing the Imperial Conference,
which provides that upon subjects which cannot be conveniently
postponed a new Conference of representatives shall be held between
Governments concerned. Does not that cover it?
Mr. DEAKIN: It could cover it, but has not been expressly
held to apply before.
CHAIRMAN: That is the intention of it.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is the intention. It leaves them irregular.
Fourteenth
Day.
9tli May,
1907.
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Imports.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
534
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
Imperial
Surtax on
Foreign
Import-.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
and not as I wished regular and constantly in operation. Your
statement shows you are prepared to adopt something.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: And there is the readiness of the Im-
perial Government to put it into black and white. Is it not advan-
tageous to have what Mr. Churchill has just said applied to this
particular subject? That is the use of the particular resolution
which I proposed.
Mr. WTNTSTON CHUECHILL: That is putting it in black and
white twice over.
Mr. DEAIQN: No, the first is a general resolution.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, about the organisation of this
'subsidiary Conference. This is simply a suggestion that this would
be a proper subject to be dealt with at the subsidiary Conference.
Mr. DEAXIN : The President of the Board of Trade pointed out
what he was doing in reference to commercial intelligence within
the Empire, and the new efforts he is going to make to extend the
system. That seems on right lines, and admirable. Now we have
attention called to the fact that the machinery of subsidiary Confer-
ences is to be applied in the same direction; that is excellent, too.
But I want this thing not to be talked out here, but defined and
understood. When we return and are asked what we have done
with regard to practical co-operation among our governments in
the future, we can only point to the Consular Service within tho
Empire as well as without it, with a provision for subsidiary Con-
ferences. I thought subsidiary Conferences on these practical mat-
ters was always possible. I want to add to that. Let us make our
collection of scalps as numerous as we can, showing we have met
these difficulties, and disposed of them.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I understand that Sir Wilfrid Laurier
proposes before the Conference separates to propose a practical
scheme.
Sir WILFRID LALTRIEii: I hope so.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I hope you will let us have it in time
to give it proper consideration.
Dr. JAMESON: That is no reason why we should not pass this
general resolution.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I desire to let it stand over until
we have something more.
CHAIRMAN: For the Minutes of to-day we record that Mr.
Deakin submitted this resolution, and Mr. Lloyd George submitted
his.
Mr. DEAK,IN : Please understand that if this resolution of mine
were rejected by every member of the Conference, I should deplore
our divergencies, but it would not in any way depress me. I should
take the benefit of all the criticism, not regretting that I had brought
the matter forward. ^ly faith is that it is better to make a mistake
attempting to frame .a practical proposal than to do nothing at all.
If this was a mistake, and I am satisfied it was not, I have at least
succeeded in bringing the question right home We are not here to
score verbal victories by carrying resolutions, or to feel defeated if
we do not carry them, but we are here to make some advance by the
frank discussion of these Imperial possibilities. I am obliged to the
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
535
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Minister for getting beyond tne accidents of my proposal to its es-
sence at the close.
UNIVERSAL PENNY POSTAGE.
CHAIRMAN : Mr. Buxton also has business which calls him
away, and as this Post Office subject will not take very long, .1 think
we might take the subject of universal penny postage before we take
Imperial cable communication.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Lord Elgin and gentlemen. In the mo-
tion as it stands upon the Agenda, I propose, after consultation with
the Postmaster-General, to make a variation which he has agreed to
accept, and it will fully meet what 1 want to place before the Con-
ference to have a resolution upon, and I think it will bring about
unanimity. I propose to substitute this : " That in view of the so-
" cial and political advantages, and the material commercial advan-
" tages to accrue from a system of international penny postage,
" this Conference recommends to His Majesty's Government the ad-
" visability, if and when a suitable opportunity occurs, of approach-
" ing the Governments of other States, members of the Universal
" Postal Union, in order to obtain further reductions of postage
" rates, with a view to a more general and, if possible, a universal
" adoption of the penny rate. " What animates me, in asking this
Conference to give effect to a proposition of this kind, is a desire
to see penny postage universally established as soon as possible,
and to get over the incongruity of being able to send a letter from
England to New Zealand, or from !New Zealand to England for a
penny, and having to pay 2Arf. to send that letter some 20 miles
across the English Channel Anything assisting to ripen public
judgment on an import^t matter of this character, world-wide in
its operation, in that respect is a good thing As the Postmaster-
General has agreed to it in this altered form, I hope it may com-
mend itself to the Conference. I move the resolution.
Mr. BUXTON: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I have, on behalf
of the Government, to accept the resolution, in the words Sir Joseph
Ward has been good enough to adopt. Only .1 feel hound to say in
regard to it that this resolution must be taken as an indication of
policy, and that it leaves the fullest possible freedom to the British
Government to judge as to the time and opportunity and especially
as to the question of the funds at their disposal, with regard to how
far, and at what moment, and to what extent they can carry out the
policy of further Postal reforms with reference to foreign countries
or the Colonies, and in the matter of the adoption of universal penny
postage. I am afraid I can give no promise of any likelihood that
we shall be able to consider the matter at a very early date, because
the Post Office revenue from which this would have to come, is not
in a very elastic condition at the present moment, and the various
claims upon our finaiices are considerable just now. I am afraid
it must be understood in our accepting this resolution that we do
it as an indication of policy more than any promise to carry it out
at any early date. The whole matter is really one of finance. We
should desire to do this at any moment we may have the funds ;
tut I should like to point out to Sir Joseph Ward and the Conference
■that the adoption of this proposal would mean a very considerable
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Universal
Penny
Postage.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
536
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1901
I'curteeiith
Day.
9th Mav.
1907.
Universal
Penny
Postage.
(Mr.
Buxton.)
7-8 EDWARD Vil., A. 1908
charge on Imperial funds. We have certain jiostal improvements,
as Sir Joseph knows, under the Postal Union — changes which come
into force on 1st October nest and which will cost us about 190,000?.
a year. The adoption of universal penny postage would mean an
addition to that of about 450,000/., so that this resolution in its en-
tirety would involve a charge of something like 650,000?. a year,
which is, of course, a very serious sum. I am afraid we could not
look with any hope, within, at all events, a number of years, of
making up that loss by increased facilities leading to increased com-
merce, because in reducing it to a penny post, the margin of profit
is almost infinitesimal on each item. I am glad to think that at the
Conference of the Postal Union, at which Sir Joseph Ward was a
representative, a very considerable step was made in advance in re-
gard to foreign postage, at the instigation of the British delegates,
supported by the Colonial delegates, under which, after the 1st Oc-
tober next, the charge for foreign postage will remain, unfortunately,
stiHiat 2Jcf.. but that will frank a letter not of half an ounce as
previously, but o:^ a full ounce, and the second charge for two
ounces will be only Aid. So that the upshot of the matter will be
this, that under the new regulations which have cost this country
about 200,000?. a year, in future a letter weighing an ounce, which
before was 5d., will go for 2id.; a two-ounce letter, which before
would have cost lOd., will now go for 4J(?. I think the Conference will
admit that is a considerable step in advance in improving postal
regulations with foreign countries. I do not know whether Sir Jos-
eph has quite enough taken this point into account. As he will
know as a delegate at that Postal Union the other great countries
interested were by no means anxious to adopt penny postage; indeed,
it was with great difficulty they were induced to adopt these changes
which I have mentioned. Therefore, I am afraid even if we were
ourselves prepared, and had the funds at disposal at the present mo-
ment, to suggest a penny postage to the other countries it would not
at present be received with much favour. But I will say it is a mat-
ter with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as myself,
have expressed sympathy, which, if and when the funds permit we
shall certainly desire to adopt, taking into account this fact that in
regard to all postal reforms they unfortunately cost money, and we
have to look round when Post Ofiice funds are available to see -what,
on the whole is the best investment for that service. This would,
therefore, have to take its opportunity with other matters in com-
petition, many of which are pressed upon us from time to time. I
entirely agree with Sir Joseph Ward that it is a matter of great im-
portance and one which I, for one, would like to see adopted at some
early date.
There is just one point in connection with it which I might
mention with regard to Imperial Penny Post, and that is that that
also is benefitted by the Postal Union Convention, to which I have
referred. Up to now, under the Imperial Penny Postage, a letter of
half-an-ounce went for a penny, but after the 1st October next a
letter of a wliole ounce will go for a penny ; so practically what used
to cost 2d. under the Imperial Penny Postage will only in future
cost a penny.
I venture to suggest to Mr. Dcakin when we are tallving of innter-
communication between various parts of the Empire, and subsidies,
and so, on, whether the time has not come that Australia also should
COLONIAL COyFEREKCE, 1007
537
I
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
fall completely into accord with the rest of the Empire in regard to
this matter.
Mr. DEAKIN: We brought in a Bill last year.
Mr. BUXTON: But J understood it was withdrawn.
Mr. DEAKIN : It was defeated and withdrawn.
Mr. BUXTON: Then I suggest to Mr. Deakin that he should
endeavour to educate Australia. As we are all agreed, the penny
postage is of the greatest possible advantage, and Australia should
no longer stand out from the agreement and the arrangement which
was come to all over the rest of the Empire.
One point, perhaps Sir Joseph will allow me to make in regard
to this matter. The chief object, as I understand, or the chief re-
sults, at all events, of this Conference is that there is a general de-
sire, on both sides, on the part of the Home Government, and on
the part of the various Colonial Governments to meet one another
in regard to improved inter-communication from the point of view
of Empire, and from the point of view of commerce. After all, this
Imperial Penny Postage which exists at present is a very consider-
able link between the various parts of the Empire. I am not alto-
gether sure, seeing that has only been in effective force for a few
years, whether on the whole — looking at it from an Imperial and
Colonial point of view — it is not a little premature to press for the
other step. Would it not be better to see first if it is likely to
facilitate the communication between the various parts of the Em-
pire before we extend its benefits at considerable expense to ourselves
- — between ourselves and other countries I throw that out not as
hostile to the spirit of this resolution, but as a point which under
the peculiar circumstances of the discussions which have occurred
here might well be borne in mind.
May I add, in connection with questions of postal facilities and
communication that we are now introducing, and are going to sug-
gest to the various Colonies the introduction of the cash on delivery
system as between the Colonies and Great Britain. The Imperial
Postal Order has now, .1 am glad to say, been adopted by every Colony
with the exception of Canada and of Australia at the present mo-
ment; but I am in communication with the Postmaster-General of
both the Dominion and of the Commonwealth and I hope they may
be able to fall in with a system, which, as regards other parts of the
Empire, is found to be of the greatest possible advantage in enabling
small purchases between the Colonies themselves and between the
Colonies and Great Britain.
I thought I had better, perhaps, make these general observations,
and again express my sympathy with the views of Sir Joseph Ward,
and say that when, and if the opportunity occurs, it is a matter
which we certainly have at heart, and hope at some time or other
to be able to accomplish.
Mr. DEAIQN: It is part of the policy of the Government to
introduce penny post, but the circumstances in Australia, like the
circumstances in some of the other great Dominions, are not taken
into account when the refusal of a majority of its Legislature to
make that concession is considered. Owing to the sparsely settled
nature of our interior, there are places in which it costs us several
shillings for the delivery of every letter. We provide what I think,
having regard to the different distances to be covered, are remarkable
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Universal
Penny
Postp.je.
(Mr.
Buxton.)
538
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907.
TJniversal
Penny
Postage.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
instances of Post Office enterprise. Wherever there are a few tents
we manage to make arrangements for a postal service. Many of
these are maintained at gi'eat cost. The consequence is that while
if we were confined to an area such as that of the United Kingdom
universal penny postage would be voted immediately — and in fact
there is penny postage within several States — we have never been
able to get the assent of the Legislature yet to an Imperial proposi-
tion, rhey fear that it would mean if not a curtailment of any of
the existing services which I have referred to, a greater hesitancy
in granting them to fresh settlements. They look with some jeal-
ousy on any proposal for diminishing the Post Office funds since
our constant onward movement means a constant opening of new
offices and the making of fresh arrangements at considerable expense.
However, that is part of our policy. We are endeavoring to carry
our measure, and another effort will be made in that regard. At
the same time it is only fair that the Postmaster-General should
recognise the very exceptional circiunstances under which our work
is carried on. Under these circumstances when we have not yet
arrived at penny postage within the Empire itself, it does look a
little previous, as the Americans would say, to be asking it from
other countries.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : une word \ipon this matter from the
point of view so fully represented, which I appreciate to the greatest
possible extent, by the British Postmaster-General. In submitting
this resolution, it is not with the object of pressing at any undue
period upon any portion of the Empire, Great Britain or elsewhere,
the bringing into operation of this system, but it is if possible to
impress upon, not the distinctly advanced British Post Office, who
have done all in their power up-to-date, and done most valuable
work, but upon other countries as well as Great Britain, the im-
portance of having universal penny postage through the world. I
am glad to have submitted this resolution, if only for the purpose
of hearing the statements made by Mr. Buxton as to what has been,
done by the British Post Office already, and I take the opportunity
of saying, as the Xew Zealand delegate at the Postal Conference
that the representatives of Great Britain there,, not only did most
valuable work, but were a distinct credit, not only to the postal
service of Great Britain, but to the Empire as a whole. I want to
place on record my testimony to the splendid way in which the Pre-
sident of that Postal Union, Mr. Babington Smith, carried out most
dilricult and important work there. I may say that the British del-
egates remained neutral when this Universal Penny Postage propo-
sition was put before that Conference. We have done all in New
Zealand that the Postal TTnion required to be done. We have the
penny rate for 4 ounces throughout our country on letters; we have
cheapness and efficiency in both our postal and telegraph services in
every way possible. I want to take the advantage of saying how
important it is to have within the Empire uniformity both as to
charges and system. Aiistralia is a case in point. There against
Mr. Deakin's own representations and those of his callable Post-
inaster-General, Mr. Austin Chapman, Parliament decided on the
grounds of loss of revenue, not to go in for universal penny postage.
Our cx|x>rience in New Zealand — and it was the experience in Ca-
nada, I know also; the then Postmaster-General told me so himself —
is that the effect of our coming right down to a penny rate was we
COLOMiL COXFEREXCE. 1907
539
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
recovered our revenue in a very limited period, very much less than
the permanent official contemplated, namely under three years. The
aspect put by Mr. Deakin as one of the reasons Australia
has voted against it was to avoid increased mail ser\'ices. In New
Zealand the adoption of it was the cause of our very nearly doubling
the facilities for carrying mails to the different portions of our
country owing to the increased business that accrued. I sincerely
hope that the time will arrive when Mr. Buxton, who is not only
sympathetic towards this resolution, but. I am sure, anxious, will be
able to do it. Some morning we will find that America and Germany
have entered into a subsiuiary agreement for a penny postage be-
tween themselves, or America and France, or some other great
countries. When that is done the whole world must soon follow.
My opinion is Britain ought to be ahead, as it always has been
ahead. We should not look upon the Post Office as a great taxing
machine for general revenue, but regard it as it is, as a great means
for the distribution of the written opinions and communications of
people to one another in all parts of the world, and that by the
cheapening of the postal rates we are helping them to promote busi-
ness and to bring into every-day life a better and closer knowledge
of all parts of the world.
I can only thank Mr. Buxton for giving my proposal his sup-
port. T thoroughly understand the reservations he has made, which
from his point of view are quite essential.
CHAIRMAN: Then this resolution may be declared adopted.
The resolution carried.
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907.
Universal
Penisy
Postage.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
Resolution
XVU
IMPERIAL CABLE COirMUNICATIOJs'.
CHAIRMAN: This is a resolution of Cape Colony. I under-
stand there has been an agreement upon this point.
Mr. BTJXTOlSr : We are willing to accept the motion.
Dr. SMARTT : That is what I understand. Therefore the only
thing to do is to formally move it : "In the opinion of this Confer-
" ence the provision of alternative routes of cable comniiinication is
" desirable ; but in deciding upon such routes, the question of the
"strategic advantage should receive the fullest consideration; (2)
" That landing licences should not operate for a longer period than
" 20 years, and that when subsidies are agreed to be paid they should
" be arranged on the ' standard revenue ' principle, i.e., half the
" receipts after a fixed gross revenue has been earned to be utilised
" for the extinguishment of the subsidy, and. by an agreement, for
" the reduction of rates. " I believe that was done in the last agree-
ment Cape Colony made.
Mr. BUXTON : Yes. I do not think I need say anything upon
it. This is the general policy which we have can-ied out in the Post
Office here and we art entirely in accord with the resolutions, both
No. 1 and 2.
CHAIRMAN: Then this resolution will be adopted?
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, I most cordially support it.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have no objection at all.
The resolution was carried.
Imperial
Cable
Communi
cation.
Resolution
XVIII.
540 COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourteeuth NATUEALIZATION.
Day.
^^907*'^' CHAIEMAN: We next have the question of naturalization, on
L which we have already heard the Home Secretary. Sir Wilfrid
Naturali- Laurier asked that this should be adjourned to express your views
^^'^1; ■ , upon the subject.
(Sir Wilfrid ^ ''
Laurier). Mr. GLADSTONE: I have prepared a draft resolution.
Sir WrLFRID LAUEIEE : I think there is no objection to that.
As far as I am concerned, I quite agree to that.
CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I had better remind the Conference that
the draft resolution submitted was : " That with a view to attain
" uniformity, so far as practicable, an inquiry should be held to con-
" sider further the question of naturalization, and in particular to
" consider how far, and under what conditions, naturalization in one
" part of His Majesty's Dominions should be effective in other parts
" of those Dominions, a subsidiary Conference to be held, if neces-
" sary, under the terms of the resolution adopted by this Conference
" on the 20th of April last. "
Gen. BOTHA: I have a memorandum on naturalisation which I
should like to read and hand in, though I quite agree with that re-
solution.
Dr. SMARTT : If that is read, I think that will allow us to come
to some conclusion now.
CHAIRMAN: Would you hand it in?
Dr. SMARTT : It affects the discussion considerably, I think.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: My colleague, Mr. Brodeur, has
something to say on this subject. It will perhaps fit in at this mo-
ment.
Mr. BRODEUR: Lord Elgin and gentlemen. I Have only one or
two observations to make with regard to this resolution moved on the
question of naturalization. I may say we have passed in Canada
this year a Bill on the question of naturalization to this effect. I
may perhaps read the most important part of the Bill, which pro-
vides : " Any person resident in Canada, or in the service of the
" Government of Canada, or of any province of Canada, who has
" obtained a certificate or letters of naturalization in the United
" Kingdom, or any part thereof, or in any British Colony or Pos-
" session, which certificate or letters remain or remains in full force
" and effect, and who desires to be naturalized in Canada may, if
" he intends when naturalized either reside in Canada or to serve
" under the Government of Canada or the Government of any such
" province, apply for a certificate of naturalization in manner herein-
" after prescribed, without having complied with the condition as to
" residence required under section 13 of the Naturalization Act,
" chapter 77 of the revised statutes, 1906. " Our Act really provides
that a person who has resided in Canada for three years may obtain
letters of naturalization, giving certificates as to his character, and
as to his residence. He has to apply to the Courts, and the Courts
decide whether under the statute he is entitled to be naturalized. We
passed in the session which has just closed the chuise which I have
just read, by which in the future a man to be naturalized who has
got already a letter of naturalization from any British Colonies will
be entitled to come before the Courts and to have his certificate of
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
541
1907.
Naturali-
zation.
(Mr.
Biodeur.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
naturalization in Canada, so to a general e.xtent we are accepting Fourteenth
the certificate of naturalization which has been given by the other Day.
British Colonies. ^"^ ^'^>'
I do not know whether it is advisable or not that we should dis-
cuss the Bill which is proposed to be introduced into the House of
Commons here, but I think that Section 7 is going a little further
than I, for my part, would be willing it should go, because there it
is declared that when a certificate of naturalization has been given
here it is to be accepted by the Colonies themselves. I tliink it would
he just as well to leave this question entirely in the hands of the
Colonies. It will be advisable perhaps to have a general law, as we
are having in Canada, but at the same time giving to the Colonies the
right to legislate and do what they lilve. I am afraid this clause will
have the effect of preventing the Colonies from legislating on the
question. That is the only objection I see to the Bill which is going
to be introduced.
Mr. DEAKIN : Generally the Bill appears to us to be a good one,
and would certainly be of assistance in clearing up ambiguities which
at present exist in the law. One point I may mention without en-
tering into detail is that if clause 12 were assimilated to clause 8,
so that it might be acted upon without assigning any reason, that
would be of advantage.
The naturalization question has few difficulties in Australia, ex-
cept in regard to the admission of coloured races, and particularly
coloured aliens. It is due to that apprehension that we have been
and shall continue to be vigilant in guarding a possible use of this
Bill. As, however, it does not appear in any way to impair the scope
of our Immigration Acts, under which the education test is applied
at discretion, this particular measure is not open to the objection
that it weakens the force of those statutes. Under these circumstances
we look forward with some expectancy to the passing of the Bill as
likely to be of value to ourselves as well as to other Colonies.
General BOTHA : .1 will ask for my memorandum to be read
now.
The memorandum was read as follows —
" (1.) It is desired that an alien naturalized in any portion of His
Majesty's Dominions should have to all intents and purposes, as from
the date of his naturalization, the status of a natural born British
subject not only within the ambit of the law under which letters of
naturalization are issued to him, but everywhere, except when the
naturalized person is actually within the country of which, at the
time of naturalization he was, and of which he still remains a sub-
ject.
" (2.) In order to carry out this object a Bill has been drafted
under the instructions of the Secretary of State for the Colonies con-
solidating and amending the enactments of the Imperial Parliament
relating to aliens and naturalization. A copy of this Bill is includ-
ed among the papers on the subject of naturalization sent to each
of the Colonial Premiers.
■' (3.) The procedure laid down in section 26 of that Bill for
conferring on an alien naturalized in a British possession outside the
United Kingdom the status of a British subject everywhere, is not
satisfactory.
" (4.) It has been suggested that the Imperial Act relating to the
542
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourteenth naturalization of aliens should be so amended as to apply to every
I>»y- portion of His Majesty's Dominions. The objection to this sug-
" ' ■ ' gestion is that it is not desirable that legislation should be imposed
1907.
Naturali-
zation.
(General
Botha.)
on a self-governing Colony except by the Parliament of such Colony.
" (5.) The difficulty can be overcome by providing in the .Im-
perial Act that so much of it as relates to the naturalization of
aliens, their status when naturalized, as also the status of their
wives and children may be put in force mutatis mutandh in any
portion of His Majesty's Dominions, by a proclamation of the Gov-
ernor thereof. In a self-governing Colony such proclamation would
only be issued by the Governor on the advice of the responsible
Ministers of such Colony. The clauses of the draft Bill which would
be put in force under the proclamation would be sections 7 to 17
inclusive, section 18 (with the exception of subsection (2), (3), and
(8) and sections 20, 21. -24 and 25.
" (6.) The Imperial Act must provide that the prrelamation
aforementioned shall name the authority to whom application shall
be made for certificates of naturalization, and by whom they shall
be issued, and that the powers and duties conferred under the Act
on the Secretary of State shall be exercised by the said authority.
It should also provide that a certificate of naturalization issued
by such authority shall have effect, to all intents and purposes, as
if it were a certificate granted by the Secretary of State, under the
Imperial Act
" (7.) The following provisions in the draft Bill should, how-
ever, be amended before it can be accepted by some of the self-
governing Colonies: —
" (a.) The Bill, as drafted, applies to aliens of non-European
descent equally with those of European birth or descent. In
some of the self-governing Colonies (Natal for example)
local naturalization is granted only to Europeans, and it is
unlikely, therefore that any such Colony will agree to recog-
nize as a British subject any coloured person coming to
reside therein, who has been naturalized in some other por-
tion of His Majesty's Dorninions where no colour distinc-
tion is made. On the other hand, the Imperial Parliament
may strongly object to making any such distinction in any
naturalization law submitted to it, especially seeing that no
such distinction is made in the present .Imperial Act of
1870, under which it may be urged that a person naturalized
within the United Kingdom is a British subject in what-
ever part of His Majesty's Dominions he may take up his
residence. This difficulty ma.v be overcome by providing
that a certificate of naturalization granted in any Colon.v in
which the Imperial Act has been put in force in manner
prescribed in the Inst preceding subsection shall have effect
beyond the borders of such Colony onl.v when granted to a
person of European birth or descent. B.y such a provision
one Colony would not be bound to admit as British subjects
persons of non-European descent natin-alized in some other
Colon.v under the provisions of the Imperial Act put in
force in such other Colon.v as prescribed in the last preced-
ing subsection. Notwith-^tanding such a provision, a
coloiired person naturalized in the United Kingdom could
be a British subject in wluitcver imrt of His Majesty's
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1007
543
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Dominions he may take up his residence. It is difficult to
see how this can be avoided in view of the fact that such
is the position under the present Imperial Act, which has
been operative since 1870. In section 9 of the Draft Bill,
the words ' except as otherwise provided by law ' sliall be
inserted after the word ' shall ' in the first line of that
clause .30, so as to make it quite clear that a coloured person,
naturalized in England, although a British subject every-
where, would, on taking up his residence in any Colony, be
subject to the same political and other disabilities as are
imposed bj' the law of that colony on coloured persons, even
though they may be British subjects.
"(b.) Section 7 of the Draft Bill provides as a condition precedent
to the issue of certificates of naturalization that the appli-
cant for them should have, within a certain limited time,
resided in His Majesty's Dominions for a period of not less
than five years. It would be better to insist that for one
of those years, namely, for the twelve months immediately
preceding his application, he should have resided within that
portion of His Majesty's Dominions in which his applica-
tion is made. This would give the authority in whom is
vested the discretion of issuing certificates of naturalization,
a better opportunity of exercising his di.seretion so as to
avoid, as far as possible, undesirable aliens from being
naturalised.
" (c.) Under the Draft Bill an absolute discretion to issue certi-
ficates of naturalization is given to the Secretary of State.
It ought, however, to be made imperative that a certificate
shall not be issued to a person who has been convicted of
an offence for which a sentence of imprisonment has been
passed without the option of a fine until he has received a
free pardon, or until a period of five years has elapsed be-
tween the date of such conviction and the application for
a certificate of naturalization. Provision is made in the
draft Bill for cancelling certificates of naturalization
obtained by false representation or fraud. If an applicant,
therefore, who has been convicted of any such offence as
aforesaid, conceals such conviction in making his applica-
tion for a certificate of naturalization, he runs the risk of
having that certificate cancelled.
" (d) The Draft Bill further provides that an applicant who ap-
plies for Letters of Naturalization must intend when na-
turalized to reside in His Majesty's Dominions. It would be
better, if such intention is to be made of any value at all,
to limit future residence to the portion oi liio Majesty's
Dominions in which the application is maai;. Tm-re may
be evidence available to show that a person applying for a
certificate of naturalization in Xew Zealand, say, does not
intend to reside there; it would be hopeless to expect to get
evidence that he does not intend to reside in some portion
or other of Ilis Majesty's Dominions.
" (e.) Clause 28 (a) of the Draft Bill provides that any person
born in His Majesty's Dominions shall be deemed to be
a natural born British subject. It is suggested that an
exception should be made in the case of a person born in
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mar,
1907.
Naturali-
zation.
(General
Botha.)
544
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907.
Naturali-
zation.
(General
Botha.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
His ilajesty's Dominions, but whose father was at the date
of his birth an alien indentured labourer of non-European
descent.'"
Mr. GLADSTONE : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, may I observe
that the memorandum which has just been read raises a number of
points, but I think a good many of them are dealt with in the state-
ment which I made on the last occasion when this subject was under
discussion. For example, with regard to criminals, I pointed out
the practice which we adopted in this country with regard to the
granting of certificates, and said that it would be quite easy to put
into a Bill what, in effect, is our practice at the present time. On
that point, I think it would entirely meet the case put forward under
(c). I am not going through all the many points raised, but there
is some misapprehension in parts of the memorandum as to the in-
tention and meaning of the Bill. For instance, under (d) in the
memorandum which has just been read, there is this : " if such in-
" tention is to be of any value at all to limit future residence to the
" portion of His Majesty's Dominions in which the application is
" made." But that would defeat the very object of the proposal,
because if a person in England, meaning to go to one of the Colonies,
and perhaps not able to go for a month or a year, desires to have
a certificate of naturalization, of course he cannot under the present
law get that certificate of naturalization becaaise he does not intend
to reside in the United Kingdom. That is the condition of the law
under which he would get his certificate. We desire to remove that
restriction. We think the fact that a man who is in England now,
not having a certificate, who desires to go to a Colony ought not to
be debarred from getting a certificate by the mere reason that he
desires to go to a Colony rather than stay for the necessary five years
in this country. Those are details which, I suggest, could best be
dealt with in the subsequent inquiry which is proposed in the resolu-
tion read by Lord Elgin.
In paragraph (4), which has been read, it is stated: "It has
"been suggested that the Imperial Act relating to the naturaliza-
" tion of aliens should be so amended as to apply to every portion
" of His Majest.v's Dominions. The objection to this Suggestion is
" that it is not desirable that legislation should be imposed on a self-
" governing Colony except by the Parliament of such Colony." Our
object is to have a general law for the whole Empire as far as is
possible. May I remind the Conference that a phrase I used in
making my statement runs thus, showing at any rate what is our
wish and intention : " Our chief desire is to make the Imperial law
" as comprehensive and acceptable to the Empire as possible, and we
" seek in short, willing and legitimate desires to all the individual
" Colonial Governments which are concerned in this question." In
another place I said we desired the Bill to include as much common
ground as possible to meet the general convenience of all parts of the
Empire. This suggestion now made is rather wasting time in this
Conference. But I suggest that though this is a very important
matter, it is in the nature of a detail, tliough a ver.v important detail,
on which, perhaps the whole Bill would depend, and I think it could
be met by discussion so that the view which I expressed and have
quoted could be carried into effect — that the local interests of a par-
ticular Colony could be considered and regarded in any Bill which
was passed.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1901
545
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Was not there a suggestion that only
certain parts should be applied to the Colony by proclamation?
Mr. GLADSTONE: By Order in Council.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: That would do away with any trouble
with regard to a general Bill.
Mr. GLADSTONE : Of course, conditions could be attached to
an Order in Council so far as to meet General Botha's Memoran-
dum.
General BOTHA: If you will read No. 5 you will find No. 5
provides how to overcome the difficulty in No. 4.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: May I be allowed tr. put the position of
New Zealand so that Mr. Gladstone may have the situation in view
all round. As far as New Zealand is concerned I want to make it
clear, without offence to any other race in any respect whatever, that
New Zealand is a white man's country, and intends to remain a
white man's country; we intend to keep our country for white men
by every effort in our power. If there is anything in this proposal
and I am just afraid there is, that would bring about a position that
in years to come some members of an alien coloured race who had
resided in England for a period of upwards of five years, and had
obtained a naturalization certificate would be entitled, if this Bill
became of general application to the Colonies, to letters of natura-
lization of the Empire, which would entitle them to come into our
Colony as naturalized subjects. Speaking for New Zealand we
would strongly oppose it on national grounds peculiar to our local
circumstances.
Mr. GLADSTONE: Could not you meet it with the immigra-
tion law?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The immigration law there wouiU come
into conflict with the proposals under this Bill. Under our immi-
gration law in New Zealand, which I think our country would not
relax, we insist upon certain examinations, and will not allow aliens
who do not comply with the reasonable conditions tuat we require to
come into our country. I want to be perfectly sure, speaking from
a New Zealand standpoint, that in any legislation that is put upon
the Statute Book in the hope of having law common to all as Mr.
Gladstone said, we maintain the right of New Zealand to exercise
to the fullest possible extent the control of an alien race that we
might consider an undesirable acquisition to our community. I am
not saying it offensively in any sense whatever to any other race,
but the feeling that we should help our own race permeates the whole
country. The school children in our schools are taught to regard
New Zealand as a white man's country. We look upon it as a
glorious portion of the British possessions, and we want to keep it
80. We are advancing in many ways and are well circumstanced
with a fine population throughout, and we want to avoid the mixing
up and the contamination of the races both now and in the years to
come by preserving it for white men to-day and not allowing any
law, whether for the purpose of naturalization or for any other pur-
pose to interfere with it. That is the fundamental and essential
condition which I wish to see established in the interest of Great
Britain just as well as New Zealand.
With that reservation, as far as we are concerned, I should only
58—35
Foiii teenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Naturali-
zation.
(Mr.
Gladstone.)
546 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
FoBrteenth be too glad to assist in the very laiidable object ilr. Gladstone has
9th Mav "^ view of having uniformity of treatment, hut I do hope in giving
1907. " effect to that uniformity of treatment that in the main overriding
„^i.. ,. law you will make provision that the right of a self-governing Colony
zation. cannot be overridden by saying we have assented to some principle
(Sir Joseph which might be found in operation injurious to our people.
Ward.)
Mr. GLADSTONE : It would be our intention to meet the views
you have expressed. I am not prepared at the present moment to
say in what terms in the Bill it should be done. I think that is a
matter for discussion. It will be of great value to me tq have the
views of the representatives of the different Colonies, so that we can
consider subsequently having those views in black and white before
us how best they can be met in the prcivisions in the Bill. The Bill
itself, as explained last time, is only put forward as a basis for dis-
cussion. It is a draft Bill. There is no idea of at once introducing
it into the House of Commons and discussing it there with all these
particular matters put forward to-day by General Botha and others
unsifted and practically unsettled. There is no idea of that sort.
I think I can give an assurance that the views put forward generally
to-day will be carefully considered before anything substantive and
final is proposed formally. Probably the be«t plan, if this resolution
which has been moved is accepted by the Conference which, I under-
stand, could be held under the terms of the resolution adopted on the
20th April.
It is a very difficult matter, from the point of view of the law
alone, and I should not care to attempt to offer suggestions or solu-
tions of the various points raised straight away.
Dr. SMARTT : It is a very important question to get settled,
if you can do so. somewhere on the lines suggested by you, because
we have the greatest difficulty. For instance, in South Africa. I
take it that an alien naturalized in one Colony, perhaps holding the
very highest office, who, after years and years goes to another Colony,
finds that he has no privilege of British citizenship whatsoever. That
is a very undesirable state of affairs. With regard to the people
naturalized in Great Britain : they have an advantage, I take it,
under your Act of 1870. If they go to any Colony they have all the
rights and privileges of British citizenship. I am glad to understand,
if I interpret your remarks aright, that you are prepared to consider
what has been said by Sir Joseph Ward in that direction. There
should be no difficidty at arriving at a common term, or common
period, of naturalization which would be acceptable to all portions
of the Briti<4i Empire. It is a fact that in Great Britain, you may
naturalize an alien of non-European e.xtraction, and if there would
be any possibility of your modifying that clause in your Bill so as
not to allow him, ipso facto, to claim the rights of British citizen-
ship in British possessions, it would meet a great many of us to a
ver.v largo extent. Then there would be a possibility of the Home
Government introducing a Bill, fixing, say, upon a certain period of
five years, and other terms to be agreed upon, and practically with-
out special legislation in the other Colonics or Dominions, it would
onl.v be necessary to pass a resolution or a clause adopting the Homo
Act. which reall.v would allow anybody naturalized in any portion of
the British Empire, who was of European extraction, and had resided
the specified period of time, ipso facto to have all the privileges of
COLONIAL COSFERENCE, 1907
547
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
British citizenship in any part of the British Empire to which he Fourteenth
Dar.
9th May,
1907.
went.
I might give you a very strong case indeed. We had in the Cape
Colony a very notable alien in the person of the late Colonel Scherm-
brucker. He was naturalized as a British subject, and became a
Minister of the Crown. To everybody it must appear as most un-
desirable that if, during his lifetime, he had gone, say, to the Colony
of New Zealand, or to the Colony of Australia, he would have had to
he re-naturalized, and could not have claimed the privilege of British
citizenship. I believe such is the law as it exists at the present
time. I should like to have !XIr. Deakin's view upon the question
of an alien, naturalized in Cape Colony (no matter how high a post
he held in that Colony) if he went to Australia, and, being of alien
birth, his British citizenship in the Colony of the Cape of Good Hope
would not give him the privilege of British citizenship in the Com-
monwealth of Australia.
:\rr. DEAKIN: I think that is so.
Mr. GLADSTOXE: Yes, I think it is so.
Dr. SMARTT: I think it will appeal to everybody that that is
a very desirable thing to alter. I know of many cases of the same
kind, and it is because we feel that these cases will lead to friction
that we do hope the Imperial Government will draft a Bill which will
be acceptable practically to all the Dominions, so that it will be only
necessary for the Colonies to adopt the principles throughout the
Empire.
Mr. GLADSTONE : The Bill as now drawn is with the object
of meeting that point.
Dr. SMAETT : If you can meet the case of the non-European,
Ic will at once simplify the matter.
Mr. GLADSTONE: That is a matter of very considerable diffi-
culty, for reasons which I need not state. I think it would simplify
matters, but that is the point we have to consider, and to get round
in some way, in order to meet the views of the different Colonies.
CHAIEMAN : May I take it that this resolution is adopted ?
The resolution was carried unanimously.
The Conference discussed the question of puhlication of the Pro-
ceedings and decided that they should he published at as early a date
as possible, subject to any necessary revision or omissions.
Naturali-
zation.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
Resolution.
XIX.
NAVAL DEFENCE.
Dr. SMAJRTT : Would I be in order in moving this Naval Reso-
lution after the discussion yesterday? I do not think it will take any
time because it is a resolution which requires no remarks to make it
acceptable to the Conference : " That this Conference, recogTiising
" the vast importance of the services rendered by the Navy to the
" defence of the Empire and the protection of its trade, and the para-
" moimt importance of continuing to maintain the Navy in the
" highest possible state of efficiency, considers it to be the duty of
" the Dominions beyond the Seas to make such contribution towards
" the upkeep of the Navy as may be determined by their local legis-
58— 35§
Naval
Defence.
548
COLOmA-L COyFEREXCE, 1907
Fotirteenth
Day.
Sth May,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Dr.
Smartt.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
•' latures — the contribution to take the form of a grant of money, the
" establishment of local Naval defence, or such other services, in
'■ such manner as may be decided upon after consultation with the
" Admiralty and as would best accord with their varying circum-
" stances."
CHAIRMAN : I may say I communicated with the First Lord of
the Admiralty what occurred, and he desires me to say he leaves him-
self entirely in the hands of the Conference with regard to any
modification or omission of the words referring to the Admiralty.
Otherwise he has no objection to it.
Dr. SMAETT : My reason for moving this resolution is the fact
that I think we have all been impressed with the character of the
discussion and the necessity of maintaining the Navy at the fullest
possible strength, and I think we all recognise the manner in which
the First Lord of the Admiralty has met us, especially in his desire
to meet the views of the outlying portions of the Empire to see
whether it is possible that they can assist in contributing to the
strength of the Navy by organising local defences of a Naval charac-
ter. I feel convinced that a policy of that sort will appeal very
strongly to many portions of His Majesty's Dominions beyond the
Seas. I gather from the statement of the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty that the establishment of submarines, destroyers, Naval
Reserve forces, local defences, and works of that character, will be
of considerable advantage to the general strength of the Navy. I do
not think anybody can take exception to the resolution, because it
distinctly states that it is subject to the votes of the individual
Legislatures, and that though the money will only be spent after
consultation with the Admiralty, it does not in any way take away
from the individual Colony its rights to be heard and practically
to decide the best manner in which that money can be spent. But I
gather from the character of the discussion we have had in this Con-
ference, and the nature of the reception we have received — those of
us who have had the advantage of discussing the matter with the
First Lord of the Admiralty and his advisers — that the Admiralty
will deal with the Colonies in the most sympathetic manner in this
direction, the result being a movement that I consider will be of
great advantage to the defence of the Empire. I think we all recog-
nise that the time is coming when it is utterly impossible for the
Colonies to exi)ect Great Britain to bear practically the whole of this
great burden of defence. The commerce of the Empire is now becom-
ing of such an enormous character that it is more and more evident
to the self-governing Dominions beyond the Seas of what vital im-
portance it is to them, as well as to the heart of the Empire, that this
commerce should have the fullest and most adequate protection.
Therefore. I feel strongly that it is the duty of the Conference to
come to a general resolution of this sort before we part. At this late
period I do not wish to go into the whole facts, figures, and statistics,
which we have gone over before, and therefore will content ni.vself
by simply moving the resolution, which I hope will be acceptable to
every member of the Conference.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I am sorry to say. so far a<i Canada
is concerned, we cannot agree to the resolution. We took the ground
many years ago that we had enough to do in that respect in our
country before committing ourselves to a general claim. Tlie Gov-
COLOXIALr COXFERENCE, 1907 549
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ernment of Canada has done a great deal in that respect. Our action Fourteenth
was not understood, but I was glad to see that the First Lord of the qtv^^Z'
Admiralty admitted we had done much more than he was aware of. 1907. * '
It is impossible, in mj' himible opinion, to have a uniform policy on
this matter; the disproportion is too great between the Mother Coun- Defonoe
try, you must remember, they have no expenses to incur with regard (gj^ Wilfrid
to public works; whereas, in most of the Colonies, certainly in Can- Laurier.)
ada, we have to tax ourselves to the utmost of our resources in the
development of our country, and we could not eontributCj or under-
take to do more than we are doing in that way. For my part, if the
motion were pressed to a conclusion, I should have to vote against it.
Dr. SMARTT : But the public works to which you refer are of a
reproductive character which are vital to the interests of your Dom-
inion.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Some of our railways have never
paid a cent of interest or expenses.
Dr. SMARTT : Still, it is developing and opening up the coun-
try to an enormous extent. All the colonies are building developing
railways of a character which may not be revenue-producing for
years. I thought the wording of this resolution would have specially
met your views because you will find to make such a contribution
towards the upkeep of the Nai-y it may take the form either of a
grant of money, or the establishment of a local defence force or other
services. I understand Canada suggested strongly the other day that
some of their other services were in the nature of local defence.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have said all I have to say on the
subject.
CHAIRMAN : I think it is a pity to pass the resolution if it is
not unanimous.
Dr. SMARTT : I should like very much to hear the opinions of
the representatives of the other portions of the Empire.
Mr. DEAKIN : I have no hesitation in entering into 'the discus-
sion if desired; but if we are not going to pass the resolution is it
worth while?
Dr. SMARTT : I think it is a great pity we do not pass some-
thing. We have done so much in the way of pious afBrmation, that
I am anxious we should do something of a practical character.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It can be passed if there is a ma-
jority. For my part, I must vote against it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : To do any good we would require to be
unanimous about it.
Dr. SMARTT : Yes, I suppose so.
Mr. WmSTON CHURCHILL: It is not much good to have a
resolution at all if we cannot be unanimous.
CHAIRMAN: I think we had better not proceed any further
just now.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: We, of the different Dominions be-
yond the Seas, have tried to be unanimous up to the present time. I
am sorry to say this is a question upon which we could not be unani-
mous. Therefore, Dr. Smartt can move it if he chooses, or withdraw
it. But if he presses it I should have to vote against it.
550
COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
Naval
Defence.
(Sir Wilfrid
Laurier.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Dr. SMAETT: I am absolutely in the hands of the Conference.
I do not want to press a resolution that is not likely to meet with
the general approval of practically everybody on the Conference, espe-
cially a resolution of this particular character. We might, perhaps,
let it stand over until the next sitting. Between this and Tuesday I
may be able to modify it in some way to meet Sir Wilfrid's view.
Double
Income
Tax.
DOUBLE mCOME TAX.
CHAIRMAN: The two questions the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer has come about are, the double income tax and as to the profit
on silver coinage. I understand it has been discussed already.
Mr. ASQUITH: Dr. Jameson, Dr. Smartt. and others were there
and discussed it with me.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Is it necessary to go over the discussion
again? We have had it before.
Mr. ASQUITH: I hope not.
Dr. SMARTT : I understand the discussion we had before was
printed and will be forwarded to the Conference.
Mr. ASQUITH : It is to be taken as part of the proceedings of
the Conference and therefore we need not go over that ground again.
Dr. SMARTT : We hold equally strong the views we expressed
the other day. We only hope you may have modified yours since
then.
Mr. ASQUITH: I am afraid I hold the same view, I expressed
then and therefore we must agree to differ about it.
CHAIRMAN : I only put it on the agenda because that was
understood.
Mr. ASQUITH : Yes, it is right to raise it again, but it must be
taken as we left it the other day:
Dr. SMARTT: You consider no further discussion will bring
you any nearer to what is our idea of what is fair.
Mr. ASQUITH : I am afraid not. It goes to the very root of our
income tax law whether right or wrong.
Dr. SMARTT: As this memorandum is going to be submitted
to the Conference and will form a portion of the Conference pro-
ceedings, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not in accord-
ance with our views, would not it be advisable to take the views of
the Conference on the question?
Mr. ASQUITH: If you please.
Dr. SMARTT: So that it is tabulated what the views of the
various portions of the Empire are on the question.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : I want to say that I have not lieard any of the
arguments addressed either by the British Goverinnent or the Col-
onies, because I understood this was a sub-counnittee which was
going to discuss the question particularly concerning those imme-
diately interested. I think if iMr. Asquith could just give us in a
few words his reasons it would be valuable.
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE. 1901
561
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. ASQTJITH: I am afraid Dr. Smartt would not be content
without adding his few words — quite rightly — and then we should
go over the whole ground again. It was with the object of saving
time in that respect that we liad what I called a sub-Conference on
this subject.
Dr. SMARTT : The reason also was that it was referred to this
Conference. Having had a discussion in your Department, we should
take the opinion of the Conference upon the question, as the opinion
of the Conference might in the future weigh upon the mind of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
CHAIRMAN : The proceedings of that meeting have been cir-
culated.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It seems to me that a reading of the
proceedings of the Committee by the different gentlemen not on the
Committee will give them the view put on record by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, in which he pointed out it was not possible for
the British Government to give effect to some of the suggestions
made. The very fact of that being so, whatever opinions might be
expressed here — they are mere expressions of opinion — cannot alter
it, and we would not gain anything re-discussing it. It is all on
record in these proceedings.
Dr. SMARTT: But the vote of the Conference is not on record
on that particular matter. I want simply to take the opinion of the
Conference.
Mr. ASQUITH : I have no objection if you think it serves any
useful purpose.
CHAIRMAN : You want the opinion of the Conference as to
whether they agree with your resolution or not ?
Dr. SMARTT: Yes.
CHAIRMAN : I can ask the Conference that. The resolution is :
" That this Conference is of opinion that shareholders, resident in
" British Colonies, of companies which are already liable to Colonial
" income tax payments, should be exempted from similar taxation
"in the United Kingdom, and strongly urges His Majesty's Govern-
" ment to adopt, at the earliest possible date, the legislation neces-
" sary to give effect to such exemption."
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Do I understand that the practice is that
supposing a company is registered in another part of the world with
persons living here, deriving income from that company, you tax
that income?
Mr. ASQUITH : If they live here. .
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We all do the same. \\Tiat we want to
try to get is a mutual arrangement that one shall abandon the im-
position at one end and the other at the other. We all do the same
absolutely.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Then I think we ought to put on an
overtax. The British Government stopped me when I wanted to do
something of the kind once.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: If there is a shareholder in a British
Company carrying on operations here entirely, and he is living in
New Zealand and gets his income out from England to New Zealand.
ronrteenth
Day.
9th Mar,
1907.
Double
Income
Tax.
(Mr. F. E. ■
Moor.)
552 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourteenth we tax it there. The very same is done by the British Govemment
9th ^May ^^'CD a New Zealander is living in England.
*^^- Mr. ASQUITH: The whole thing is set out in the discussion we
Double ^^^ ^® other day. The considerations on one side and the other are
Income stated with perfect lucidity, and I think it would be a pity to have
^^' to go over the ground again.
Ward.) CHAIRMAN: This resolution will be on record, and the pro-
ceedings at the Treasury are recorded, which shows that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer cannot agree.
Dr. SMAETT : I understand :Mr. Deakin, Sir Joseph Ward and
General Botha have accepted the principles laid down in the resolu-
tion already. That is why I would like to have it on record at the
Conference that they have accepted it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: If the resolution goes on record with the
record of the proceedings of the Committee and the views of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think it is just as good as a resolu-
tion passed one way or the other.
Dr. SMARTT : It is unfortunate that Mr. Moor did not happen
to be present at the meeting we had. I know he agrees with the
tenour of the resolution, and I thought if we could have got it
affirmed here, Mr. Moor, who was not present at the discussion, would
be able to vote upon it.
Mr. ASQUITH : No doubt all the representatives of South Africa
would agree.
Mr. F. R. MOOR : We have no income tax in our Colony, but
that does justify the double tax, in my opinion.
Mr. ASQUITH: They have in Cape Colony.
Silver SILVER COINAGE,
('oioage.
Mr. DEAKIN: The papers for which I have sent and my ana-
lysis of the return you have been kind enough to supply, have not
reached me. The general opinion with us that the profit on silver
coinage is large, is borne out by the return. The net results of the
operations of the Mint must be most satisfactory.
Mr. ASQUITH : They vary very much from year to year. We
had a very good year last year as it happens.
Mr. DEAKIN : The price of silver was low.
Mr. ASQUITH : The price of silver is one factor, but the de-
mand is of a very capricious kind, particularly from West Africa.
A large part of our profit is due to an abnormal demand from West
Africa, where the natives like fresh bright silver and keep it.
Mr. DEAKIN: Apart from that, so far as I follow this return,
the profits made on Australian coinage alone look extremely well —
over 40,000/. a year.
Mr. ASQUITH: That is not far wrong. I will tell you exactly
how I take the profit in Australia. The average amount taking five
years' silver coinage applied in Autsralia is 76,480/. per annum. The
mint profit on that, if all the coins had been made out of new bul-
lion, would be 41,461Z., but we have to deduct from that the worn
silver and on the average that was withdrawn from Australia to the
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 563
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
value of 11,706^ per annum, so that the net supply of new coins was Fourteenth
76,480/. minus this 11,706/., which would give you 64,774/. a year, on Day.
which the profit would be 35,115/. Then if you deduct the loss of the ^"\ Jl''^'
worn coin from that, as I think you oiight fairly to do, because there L
is considerable loss on the worn silver — we average it at about 10 per Silver
cent, of the face value of the coin — if we take that 1,706/. which is Coinage,
the average annual amount withdrawn of worn coin from Australia. AsanVh >
10 per cent, of that is 1,170/. The net annual profit attributable to
Australia 35,115/. less 1,170/. equals 33,945/. That is the best sum
I can give you. That has been worked out as fairly as it can be.
That may be said to have been the average profit of the Mint during
the five years from the Australian issues.
Mr. DEAKIN. Have you any proposition to make for future
coinage ?
Mr. ASQUITH: Would you like to coin yourselves, because we
can offer you that?
Mr. DEAKIN: That has been proposed.
Mr. ASQUITH: We are quite ready to give it up and let you
coin yourselves, just as Canada does.
Mr. DEAKIN : Canada has a subsidiary coinage.
Mr. ASQU.ITH: Yes, and yours would be a local coinage.
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, distinguished in some trifling way.
Mr. ASQUITH: You would have to choose for yourselves about
what you did.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Would you concede the same to New
Zealand if we desired it.
Mr. ASQUITH: Yes, I think you would stand on exactly the
same footing. I thinlc that is a thing you might consider. I do not
ask for an immediate decision.
Mr. DEAKIN: J should like to consider it with any suggestions
the experts of the Mint can make.
Mr. ASQUITH: I make further the offer found on the last part
of the memorandum as to withdrawing the worn gold coin which
is at present done in this country. I offered to withdraw that at
Sydney, or Melbourne, or wherever you please. That would be a
great convenience to your trading community. There are those two
offers, if you will kindly consider them.
Mr. DEAKIN: Thank you.
Dr. SMAETT: How would that meet the Colonies which do not
coin their own silver? Would you be prepared to make them any
allowance off the profits made on the silver coinage?
Mr. ASQUITH : We will make you the same offer as the others.
Dr. SMAETT : But we do not coin.
Sir JOSEPH WaED: \.e do not coin either, but I will accept
your offer, kindly made, and will consider it.
Dr. SMAETT: You do not think you can meet us in any way
so long as we do not coin?
Mr. ASQUITH: You woulu probably find the establishment of
a separate Mint in New Zealand would hardly be worth the candle?
Sir JOSEPH WAED : I think that is very possible.
554
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907. "
Silver
Coinage.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. ASQUTTH : South Africa is rather different.
Dr. SMARTT : We see from the figures worked out that there
is no difficulty of apportioning the profit to each Colony: conse-
quently, you might be inclined to allow the Colony the profit made
on the coining of the silver.
Mr. ASQUITH: I will consider your case; and the whole of
South Africa stands on the same footing as regards this — General
Botha and Mr. Moor also.
Dr. SMARTT : You will consider my question without com-
mitting yourself as to what might be a fair allowance.
Mr. ASQUITH: Certainly, without committing ourselv.es at
all.
General
Botha'i
Fare-.vell.
GENERAL BOTHA'S FAREWELL.
General BOTHA: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, my time is over
now. I unfortunately have to leave before you resume again. I
must go on Saturday to South Africa, and probably this morning
is my last attendance, but I hope I shall again have the opportunity
of attending later Conferences. .1 cannot leave without saying good-
bye to you all, expressing my gratitude to the Chairman for the able
way in which he has led us and conducted the proceedings. It has
been one of the greatest pleasures of my life to meet the representa-
tives of the various Possessi ns here, and to shake hands with them,
and I' want to give you all this assurance that the friendships which
I have formed here in person will always be strengthened as far as
I am concerned.
CHAIRMAN: I think I may say on behalf of the Conference
that I am sure we entirely respond to the sentiments expressed by
General Botha. It has been a great pleasure to us to see him here.
We know he has come at considerable inconvenience to himself, but
I venture to think that the Conference of this year would have suf-
fered very much had he not been able to attend. We, I am sure,
also reciprocate entirely the feeling of the advantages which we gain
by mutual intercourse, and though I do not know which of us will
be here to meet him, we shall hope that he, at any rate, will attend
another Conference.
After a short adjournment.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
BRITISH INTERESTS IN THE PACIFIC.
The Conference sat in private. On resuming:
Mr. DEAIvIN: Lord Elgin, with the permission of the Con-
ference T propose to invite their attention to this question from a
general point of view because without reference to the past, I doubt
if the intention of the Commonwealth Government can be made
clear. There was a time — and that not so far distant — when this
ocean was ignored and these Islands were little visited because they
presented small opportunities of trade or settlement — a time at which
Great Britain was so much the predominating power that almost any-
thing desired in the way of possession or suzerainty could have been
acquired without difficulty. Of course the dead past must be left
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
565
1907
British
Interests
ill the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
to bury its dead, but some reference is necessary to the indifferent Fourteenth
attitude of statesmen in this country, a not unnatural attitude be- <w.ir*'Vf
cause, to the Lnited Kingdom, the Pacific is remote, and not over the
greater part of it even a highway of much traffic. On the other hand,
to Australia and New Zealand in particular, and also to Canada,
the future of the Pacific is extremely important, and may become
more so at any time, now that attention is directed to its great
spaces where rival nations have a footing, and are if anything dis-
posed to strengthen their hold. This difi'erence of situation led from
the first to a different attitude of mind on the part of the people of
the Commonwealth and New Zealand, the people of Australasia, as
compared with that of the people of the Mother Country. As a con-
sequence, the course that has been followed and consistently fol-
lowed in Australasia has neither been understood nor appreciated
here. I do not wish to dwell once more upon the impossibility of
severing the interests of the Empire into those which could be al-
lotted to the United Kingdom and those which should be allotted
to its Dominions beyond the Seas. As a matter of fact, we have all
but one interest, though this may be modified by the claims and in-
terests of the several parts. But no gain is possible to the flag in the
Pacific which is not of great moment to Great Britain as well as to
Australasia. I do not pretend to apportion the relative values of
gains or losses, that would be an idle task. But we may fairly as-
sume at least an equalitv of interest in matters affecting the Paci-
fic.
Owing partly to the dominance of a certain school of political
thought in the United Kingdom, which so far as appearances go
has much diminished in authority, there was a time when the anxiety
of public men in this country was to avoid under any circumstances
the assumption of more responsibilities and a great willingness to
part with any that they possessed. I do not know how far that
school is still represented, nor does it matter; but there never was
a time when a similar school of thought existed in our new coun-
tries. From the very first, the earliest settlers even when they were
few in number, were large in their ambitions, not for themselves
but for the country to which they belonged, and for those who were
to come after them. That was the original cause of difference of
policy. Thus the opposite points of view of those who live by the
Pacific Ocean, as is our case, and those on this side whose shores
are washed by the North Sea, have been the chief ground for differ-
ence. But what is sometimes forgotten is that in the very earliest
periods, when the British flag was first carried into these seas,
there were British statesmen who entertained the largest ideas of the
scope of our authority in the Pacific. I think it was when Governor
Philip was sent out to the Colony of New South Wales that his
Letters Patent not only included Australia, but what were termed
the adjacent islands, and although these were the days before steam,
at least one of his successors held that " adjacent islands " extended
to Tahiti, naturally including all the groups between. At all events,
the New Hebrides were distinctly included within New Zealand in
the earliest days of that Colony, and our title to them was only
abandoned in 1840. The prevailing attitude of mind here is fairly
expressed in a despatch published in a Blue Book relating to the
New Hebrides this year, relating to the Convention with France. It
appears on page 64, where a despatch of Mr. Alfred Lyttelton, of
556
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1807.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
October 31st, 1903, is quoted. In replj- to a paragraph in a letter
which I had written, commenting on what J termed " the inaction
of the Imperial Government, " I was directed to this document, as
expressing the views which are still held. In this despatch it is
pointed out that a vast extent of territory in the Pacific Ocean has
been definitely brought \inder British control during the last 30
years. It must not be forgotten, as I have already said, that it was
indefinitely under British authority before that; but the statements
here made show what parts were definitely brought under British
control during the last 30 years. Reference is made to Fiji, part of
New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, the Gilbert and the Ellice Islands,
and the Cook Group, most of those acquisitions having been made
as is admitted mainly (sometimes entirely) of the interests and senti-
ments of Australia and Xew Zealand. Now that is perfectly true.
But for the action of Australia and Xew Zealand, there would not
be an island to-day in the Pacific under the British flag. I am old
enough to remember the long agitation which led to the annexation
of Fiji which was very nearly allowed to slip through our fingers.
I remember only too well the warnings transmitted to the Imperial
Government with reference to New Guinea when we were assured
by the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, Lord Derby, that
there was no intention on the part of Germany to annex any part
of that island. It was in this faith that the flag hoisted without
authority by the Governor of Queensland, the British flag, was
hauled down
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: By whom?
Mr. DEAKIN: By order of the British Government. Immedia-
tely afterwards one half of that very territory which we had just
been assured was not going to be touched was appropriated by the
German Government. Then, because under pressure of public opin-
ion that Minister for the Colonies was forced to take over the
fraction left, that is cited to us years afterwards as a proof of the
spirited policy pursued by the British Government. Wliat is true
of this island is true of the Solomon Islands and the Gilbert and
Ellice Islands. Whatever losses there are in the Pacific — and there
have been others — have been due to neglect here. Every single gain
has been due to pressure from Australia and New Zealand. Con-
sequently, whatever credit is d\ie for the acquisition of these islands
rests on the other side of the globe and not on this. Is it, therefore,
to be wondered at that a feeling has been created and still exists in
Australia — an exasperated feeling — that British Imperial interests
in that ocean have been mishandled from the first? It is more by
good luck than by good management that we retain even the islands
that we possess. That is to be remembered, in coming to the con-
sideration of the recent developments to which these remarks are a
prehide, because, unless you understand that from the point of view
of Australia, we once had the Pacific within our grasp, and have
retained nothing of it without constant protest and exertion, while
we have lost a great deal which we might have secured, our sentiment,
which is apparently quite unappreciated by the press and public
men of this country, will never be understood. Here we are repre-
sented as a grasping people who, settled in Australia, a territory still
too large for us, are reaching out in a grasping spirit to add to it
merely because we are in .\ustrnlia. That exactly reverses our
point of view. We practically had these islands, or most of them.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
557
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
almost as much as we had Australia in the fii'st instance. It is not
a series of grasping annexations that we have been attempting, but
a series of aggravated and exasperating losses which wo have had to
sustain. There you have our two absolutely opposite points of view,
the point of view of our part of the world and the point of view
in this country, and it is only because it is necessary, as it appears
to me, to make that fundamental contrast of attitude understood,
that I have ventured to detain the Conference by referring to it.
Let me now approach the latest illustration of our misfortunes in
the New Hebrides. Ever since I have been in public life this group
has presented vexed problems to Australia. It was only after a very
long struggle that in 1887 we were able to obtain a means by which
the titles of British settlers there could be officially recognised. We
wished some foothold given those early and enterprising men. .In
1887, as is now well imderstood, when the first of these Conferences
assembled, the project quite favourably regarded by the British
Government included the surrender of whatever rights were possessed
in that group. It was only on account of the very vigorous opposi-
tion to that suggestion offered by Australasia that the islands did not
then pass entirely under the French flag. That was another experi-
ence which has not been forgotten, and is not likely to be forgotten.
The intention in 1887 was that some arrangement should be arrived
at with the French Republic in reference to the future of these is-
lands. When the Conference of 1897 met, the only reference to them
that I remember, states that no decision had been arrived at. For
ten years the matter had been allowed to rest: In 1904 an agreement
between the British and French Governments was signed which pro-
vided for a settlement of matters in dispute between them all over
the world, in Morocco in particular, in Africa generally and else-
where. Again the New Hebrides only appeared in a footnote indi-
cating that something was still expected to be done. It requires to be
remembered that during all these years, before even land titles were
recognised, there were British settlers in that group; there were
British missionaries ; and that whatever was being done in the way
of trade or to inculcate the principles of Christianity was under-
taken by Britons, including a certain number of Australians. I am
not delaying for exact dates, but think it was in consequence of our
fresh representations made in 1902 that a British Resident was ap-
pointed, a gentleman without real status or legal authority of any
effective kind, who was to keep a general oversight of British in-
terests and to advise. He had no real power; he was not authorised
to keep records, and has not even the means of necessary transport
which would familiarise him with the variovis islands and villages
of the group. Under all these difficulties it is not surprising that he
has accomplished little. During this earlier period, the New Hebri-
des has been dealt with by the individual Australian States and New
Zealand; and among the very first resolutions passed by Conferences
which were then held at which six or seven Colonies independent of
each other were /■epresented they passed strongly worded resolutions
about the New Hebrides, with which I do not desire to detain you.
Never at any time has this matter been out of the view of Austra-
lian horizon. On January 1st, 1901, the present Commonwealth came
into being, and within two months one of the first despatches ever
directed from the new Government of the whole of Australia, ad-
dressed to this office, related to the New Hebrides. Consequently,
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
PaciBc.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
558
COLONIAL COSFEREXGE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mar,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
statements which have recently been made in Parliament, here and
elsewhere, that the New Hebrides have been the subject of corres-
pondence for the last 20 years, and that some persons here were sat-
urated with the views we have expressed, have very good foundation.
We have kept on protesting and urging action without any cessation
for the last 24 years. Before that there were frequent and spasmodic
outbursts of complaints as we saw the islands sUpping away, but
for the last 24 years there has been systematic agitation, yet prac-
tically there has been nothing to show for it until this last.
Sir WILFKID LAUEIER: Are you asking for any special ac-
tion or protesting in general terms against the supineness of the
Government ?
-Mr. DEAK.IN: Let me first get on record an explanation of the
Australian attitude expresses, in both special and general protests
and now approach my second subject, the Convention recently con-
cluded. That I do not propose to discuss in detail here. As to the
merits or demerits of the convention made, we have >aid our say
and I have since had the opportunity of communicating with Mem-
bers of His Majestj''s Government here in reference to it. I feel
it would be idle to criticise that Convention now; but I do feel in
justice to ourselves, and to meet some statements to which I must
presently refer, that we are entitled to have it understood why, and
with good reason, we have an exasperated feeling. I do not know of
any series of public incidents that have sown more discord in Aus-
tralia and created more discontent than those dealing with the Paci-
fic Islands. They have caught and kept the popular eye and in-
flamed the popular mind. I think that after all our unfortunate ex-
periences these years we were entitled to expect that in any dealings
with the New Hebrides, Australia and New Zealand would have been
consulted, kept in close touch with the Colonial Ofiice, and afforded
every opportunity of assisting to bring about a fair settlement. The
trade of the Hebrides, such as it is, is with Sydney and Auckland,
and consequently the best information available is to be obtained
in them. There was first of all a fair title of our people and their
Government to be consulted, and there was next the possession of an
intimate knowledge of their local conditions possessed by our mis-
sionaries and our traders. On both these grounds we, as representa-
tives of the British people in those seas and deeply interested our-
selves, were entitled to be heard. The fact is, however, that this
Convention was arrived at without us in a most extraordinar.y man-
ner. Tt will be remembered that we have been for the last 24 years
corresponding, passing resolutions, and protesting; and when it ap-
peared impossible to make any further advance on the lines that we
had been following, about the middle of 1905 I addressed two des-
patches to this office. The first was in consequence of one of the
many deputations which waited on the Government from missionar-
ies and people interested in the islands, asking, as they have asked
a score of times, for some settlement of the issues connected with
them. My first despatch conveyed their complaints and representa-
tions, but from all the information I had been able to obtain I bad
become persuaded at last that comparatively little could be hoped
for British supremacy in those groups at that time. I consequently
wrote another despatch, in wnich I suggested that a permanent joint
protectorate under reprcsentativea of both co\intries and foinided
upon conditions giving security for investment and settlement.
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1901
559
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
might be worth considering. Tliis is given at page 3 of the Blue
Book already alluded to. That suggestion was prefaced in these
terms: "Your Excellency's advisers, though most reluctant even to
" appear to relax their efforts to secure annexation, are so discouraged
" by the interminable postponements, and the uncertainties of the
" present position that they feel constrained to inquire whether a
■' proposal for such a protectorate is favoured by TTis Majesty's Gov-
" ernment and the Republic of France, and if so, upon what terms."
At the conclusion of that despatch we pointed out that the sentiment
of the people of the Commonwealth is so adverse to anything re-
'^ombling a sacrifice of the great Imperial possibilities of the New
Hebrides, that this inquiry was tentative only in order to ascertain
the prospects of such an arrangement, and afford an opportunity for
its consideration in the event of no better alternative being open to
us. That was the end of August, 1005. I do not think anything
could be clearer or more explicit than those despatches. We made
an inquiry. We wanted to know on what terms a joint protectorate
would be possible, and pointed out that our inquiry was tentative
only to afford an opportunity for further consideration. To that let-
ter we received no reply — that is to say, no repl.x^ loi- ir'cnths after-
wards, months during which a great de&l w8= hapoeniug. This Blue
Book renders it unnecessary for ai^ lo follow Il;e whole course of
the subsequent proceedings in dstoil. It coiruutuces v;ith .' letter
from the Foreign Office to the Colonial Office of September 1905.
The Foreign Office then forwarded .i luonivu'i'udu'n from the Fnmcli
Minister in London with rei"c-?nce to au examination of title deeds
in the New Hebrides. The correspondence which had been conduct-
ed between the Imperial Gov.iimisnt and ourselves had two -ir three
different lines. One was ih* mam ;.orre;ipoudcnce asking for an-
ne\rtion, another and quite di.stinct correspondence^ was being car-
ritn on in reference to the titles to Ian I claimed by British cr
Iiench settlers with the obijer of gCitiu"? these in some way seltled,
in order to avoid the quarrels wliljli were springing \ip between
British or French, over their transactions in land. There was a third
line of correspondence which related to the occasional disturbances
in the island or minor squabbles. This despatch containing the
complaints of the deputation was written before my despatch of
August 29th, 1905, touching upon a possible protectorate. The ne-
gotiation in London differs from both since it springs out of the cor-
respondence about land titles, these being in a very unsatisfactory
position at that time. The French Commissaire General had been re-
quested to furnish his observations on the proposals made by the
British Government with regard to the land claims in the New
Hebrides, that is on page 1. The suggestion was that a local mixed
commission would be necessary to deal with those land titles, but the
French Government thought there would be objections to investing
such a commission with full powers, and thought it would be advis-
able at least to specify the nature of the evidence which could be
put on one side or the other. What was therefore suggested by them
was not a commission to settle land titles, but only a chat between
two officials to settle the terms on which evidence regarding these
titles could be put in. The French Government suggested nothing
more than verbal negotiations of a purely semi-official character
between a French expert and a British official. That was the pro-
posal. The translation given certainly does full justice to the French
Fourteenth
Dav.
9th May,
\m.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
560
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1001
Fonrteenth
Dav.
9th Mav.
1907.
British
luterests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
request, which will be found in the enclosure. Then comes the ar-
rival of my August letter to which I have already referred. The
French Government on October 5th agreed that the examination of
title deeds should be trusted to a local mixed commission and sug-
gested for the purpose of settling the powers to be entrusted to the
commission, that the nature of the evidence which might be put in
should be discussed in verbal negotiations of a purely semi-official
character. That seems to me to be a little larger than the first pro-
posal, " settling the powers to be entrusted " seems an addition, but
it is immaterial. Needless to say, of all this correspondence we heard
nothing and knew nothing. So far as we were concerned it did not
exist. On November the 4th, the Colonial Office telegraphed to New
Zealand to ascertain whether they were favourable to a joint Anglo-
French protectorate. They received an answer given on page 5 to
say : " If not better arrangement could be made. They would prefer
annexation, but failing that the island should be divided. Next,
on page 4, we find that the " functionary " named by the French
is M. Saint-Germain, a senator of France, occupying a very con-
siderable public position of influence in that country, and scarcely,
I should say, the kind of functionary contemplated in the earlier
correspondence. In addition he is to be supported by two officials,
one attached to the Cabinet of the Colonial Office of France, and the
other attached to the Cabinet of Monsieur Clemenceau. We are thus
prepared for the letter of December 6th, which shows that the next
suggestion is that the scope of the commission should be enlarged
to discuss the best means of terminating the difficulties which have
arisen owing to the absence of jurisdiction o*er the natives of the
islands. The French enclosure is given below. Then we find the
Colonial Office informing the Foreign Office that three representa-
tives of the French Government are expected in connection with
establishing a land claim, tribunal in the New Hebrides. Mr.
Lyttelton, the Colonial Secretary, then submits, for the first time,
that the opportunity should be taken to discuss verbally with them,
if they were willing, the question of a joint protectorate. Of this,
too, we knew nothing.
We pass on now to a further communication of January 9th,
1906, from the Foreign Office, enclosing a copy of a communication
from the French Embassy. The chat between two officials about
evidence has become a Commission — " au sujet de la Commission des
Nouvelles Hebrides " is the phrase used in No. 13. In addition to
M. Saint-Germain, who has the title of " Commissaire, " there comes
Monsieur Picanon, a very capable and high official, who has been
Governor of New Caledonia, and Monsieur Weber, who is joint
chief of the office of the Colonial Minister. In addition there is a
Monsieur Gournay, who is to be secretary and interpreter. The
single " functionary " has been transformed into a Senator, an ex-
Governor of New Caledonia, a joint secretary of the Minister of the
Colonies, and another gentleman from the same office. It is pointed
out in the last paragraph that this is not an official Conference, but
for the purpose of a simple exchange of views. It must be understood
that we remained unaware of any of these proceedings. The dis-
tinguished gentlemen came to Ixjndon, and the Convention sat in
February 1906. Except for the information convoyed to us by
ordinary newspaper cables, we were still unaware of its existence
and of its character. We had not the faintest conception of its
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
561
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
scope. We saw the notices in the papers, and were somewhat sur-
prised that the appointment of the French official and the British
official who were to settle the manner in which the evidence on titles
should be put in had not been communicated to us, but regarding
the meeting in that light and remembering that it was to be un-
official and that everything was to be subject to after consideration,
we supposed it was by a mere official oversight that we
were being ignored upon a matter of small importance. It was not,
in fact, until expressions of astonishment began to appear in the
Australian papers after I had been questioned about the meeting,
that the correspondents of English papers in Australia cabled to
London some expression of surprise. It was then that we received
the first reply by telegraph, which will be found on page 10 March
6th, 1906, referring to our unanswered despatch of August 29th and
informing us that the " Joint Anglo-French Commission has signed
" Convention for submission to British and French Governments for
" settlement of questions in New Hebrides. Convention will not be
" confirmed until His Majesty's Government has had opportunity of
" considering views of your Ministers. Copy wiU be sent by next
" mail." This was signed by Lord Elgin. That was the first intima-
tion we had that there was a Commission, that a convention had been
drawn up and signed, and that it was to settle questions in the New
Hebrides other than those affecting land titles.
There I can stop my recital of events. But it is at least a matter
of interest and of some curiosity to know that though the Convention
did not sit until February 1906, previously, in December 1905, there
appeared in a French paper a forecast of the findings to be expected
from this Commission wliich was posted to me by a very experienced
and able member of the House of Conmions. So that I was not
altogether unprepared for the Convention when it arrived, seeing
that it followed, according to the member who posted it to me, and
according to my own recollection, the very lines on which the actual
Convention was drawn up. That means nothing more than this, that
the French Commission went into this meeting knowing exactly what
they wanted, thoroughly well equipped with information, with the
personal experience of M. Picanon in New Caledonia where he had
been Governor for some time, and with the general knowledge of M.
Saint-Germain. They knew what they wanted and what they intended
to get. There need be no surprise if they got it — nor any suggestion
of anything more than their address — knowing their own minds they
were successful. Then comes a despatch to us dated March 9th,
1906, which I do not propose to refer to except to quote a line from
page 14 the last paragraph, by which we were informed that the draft
Convention must be confirmed or rejected practically as it stands.
Except the telegram, this was the first reply we had ever had to our
suggestions of August 1905, which, as I have shown, were made in a
reply tentative way and subject to consideration, and made only in
default of other possibilities. The first information we got was a
Convention which we had to confirm or reject practically as it stood.
That intimation, it must be remembered, was not made to us by the
British Colonial Office for its own purpose, but was an intimation to
us that, having debated this matter with the French Commission its
officers felt sure no better terms could be obtained. Therefore, they
told us that this Convention must be accepted or rejected as a whole.
Now I take it that anyone who has followed this simple statement
58—36
Fourteeuth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Fourteeutli
Day.
9th May,
1907.
British
Interest?
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
of the course of events will realise that those who have heard the
statements made in public in this country with reference to the
manner in which this Convention is formed may be pardoned if they
have arrived at an entirely misleading view of the circumstances.
To say that a correspondence with us had been proceeding for many
years is perfectly true, but quite irrelevant to the making of this
Convention. To say that we were consulted at every step is an abuse
of language, so far as that Convention is concerned. To lead anyone
to suppose that the Commonwealth or its Government had the faint-
est tittle of responsibility for either this Commission or the personnel
of this Commission, matters on which I thinlv we were fully entitled
to be heard, or to allow it to be supposed that we knew anything of
that Commission, its purposes, character, or work, or of this Con-
vention until we saw it complete, is to convey a series of wholly
mistaken impressions. We knew nothing until we received this Con-
vention with an intimation that it must be either taken as a whole
or left.
I do not think that this procedure is capable of any defence except
by the frank statement that it was due to an entire oversight, that
Australia and Xew Zealand had dropped out of view, that the able
gentlemen who represented the British Government on that Conven-
tion being capable and well informed, it was not necessary for us to
be consulted; that they knew better what we wanted than we -did
ourselves, or at all events were better judges of what ought to be done
in the New Hebrides than we could be. Any one of those state-
ments might be made, and I do not contradict it. All I am con-
cerned to insist upon now is that there should be no pretence that
any respect whatever was paid or sought to be paid to the opinion of
.\ustralia, or any recognition given to us in a very serious matter on
which we certainly were entitled to be consulted, or at least informed,
at' every step. We were not even informed of what was taking place
through the newspapers. That it should be possible at the centre of
the Empire to conduct a negotiation upon matters of grave import-
ance which had been the subject of correspondence for 24 years be-
tween the Colonial Office and the self-governing communities con-
cerned and which was of great moment to Imperial interests in the
Pacific in this casual and secret fashion, is. I think the strongest
possible impeachment of the methods that have obtained in this office.
It is not because I wish to return to the past, but to defend our
action and to prevent the possibility of anything of this kind recur-
ring in the future, that I have recapitulated these incidents. But
when I find in the House of Commons a question asked on the 19th
February of the TTndor Secretary for the Colonies relating to the
New Hebrides referring to matters upon which we had been in cor-
respondence with this Department. T have again to submit that the
methods which make this possible are certainly in need of entire
reform. The question was asked by "Mr. Wliitohead and will be found
in column 708 of the Parliamentary Hansard: "T beg to ask the
"Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware
" that the protective tariff in force in the Australian Commonwealth
" applies to maize, copra, and other products of the New Hebrides.
" and has been a cause in limiting the number of British settlers and
" retarding the development of British interests in those island,
" and whether, in event of further representations being made
COLOyiAL COyPESBNCE, 1907
sa
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
" by the Australian Govemment with a view to Australian predomin-
" ance in the New Hebrides, His Majesty's Government will endea-
" vour to persuade the Australian Government to encourage British
" settlement by offering a free market in the Commonwealth to British
" merchandise exported from the " islands." That, though put in
the form of a question, suggests or provides material for a number of
serious misapprehensions.
I must call attention to the answer, accounting for some of its
several misstatements by a too ready acceptance of the implications
of the question. The answer was to this effect : " I am aware of
" the facts stated in the first part of the hon. Member's question. The
" Australian Government propose to submit to the Commonwealth
" Parliament at an early date proposals in connection with tariff
" revision which will, I gather, be designed to minimise as far as
" possible the disability under which British settlers in the New
" Hebrides are now labouring." What were the facts stated in the
first part of the honourable Member's question ? The Under Secretary
of State said he was aware of them and endorsed the statement. Tet
no tariff in Australia ever yet has applied to copra, which is the
principal export of the New Hebrides and by far its chief hope; it
was always admitted free to New South Wales, our principal and
principally sole market, and, since the constitution of the Common-
wealth, has always been admitted free to Australia as a whole. It
is imported into Australia in large quantities, in part maniifactured
there, while other large quantities are transmitted to England.
Of course T know that the Under Secretary for the Colonies has
no personal responsibility whatever for that statement. He is in-
formed by officials, who have before them the Commonwealth Tariff.
Copra has for several years increased in value, and the trade is in-
creasing in importance, so that I cannot imagine how it can have
been possible for anyone pretending to even the faintest knowledge
of production in the Pacific, not to be aware that copra was and
always had been free. The answer proceeds to say that the Australian
Commonwealth Tariff applies to maize and other products of the New
Hebrides. As a matter of fact it scarcely touches any of the other
products, as far as I am informed, besides maize. Maize, ground-nuts,
and bananas it does touch to some extent. I presume members of
the Conference know that maize is a frequent crop, while ground-nuts
and bananas, too, have their season. They are not like copra of
which one does not reap the full fruits for from five to seven years,
after which it is a permanent product for many decades, perhaps fiO
or 70 years, and of great value. The other crops are used pending
the maturity of the coco nuts. There were, and are duties in the
Commonwealth which affect maize and bananas, but for the first two
years after their imposition they did not affect maize at all, because
those were the seasons of great demand in the Commonwealth, Then
we imxwrt grain from everywhere. The New Hebrides settlers in
those two years did a thriving business with us, notwithstanding the
duty. They paid the duty and still reaped very handsome profits.
One might expect, perhaps, that this should be known since it was
a fact that for those two years from 1901 to 1903 the New Hebrides
settlers were not in the least affected by our tariff on maize.
Then, what ought to have been remembered and indeed it was
directly broiight to the knowledge of the Colonial Office was that we
had appealed to them in order to ascertain if we could not grant a
.5S— .SOi
Fourteentk
Day.
9th May,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(.Mr.
Deakin.)
564
COLONIAL OOyFEBENCE, 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
preference to the maize grown in the New Hebrides, and had been in-
formed that this would conflict with treaty obligations. We had been
so informed. This reply is given in February 1907; and it was
about that time. It was after we had been bringing under the notice
of the Colonial Office our anxiety to help the settlers in the New
Hebrides by making them special concessions. That was a fact that
was well known, and ought to have been stated in reply to the House
when a question was directed directly against the Commonwealth
tariff and its supposed continuously adverse operation in the New
Hebrides.
Mr. WINSTON CHUECHILL : May I say that I did not know
that Mr. Deakin was to raise this particular point, or I should have
refreshed my memory by a closer study of the facts ; but, so far as I
recollect, the authority stated by me was Sir Everard im Thurn, our
High Commissioner in the New Hebrides, who reported to us that
the Australian tariflf had injuriously affected British colonization in
the New Hebrides. I think that has been published.
Mr. DEAKIN: It is published.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I think the authority on which
I made my statement which is, of course, only a general acceptance
of the facts contained in the question
ilr. DEAKIN : I am not quite sure that we had his Report before
this; but the point is this: that directly we saw it we challenged
it at once by despatch. It was the unintentional misrepresentation of
a gentleman recently appointed, who had only paid one visit to the
group, and was extremely unfamiliar with a great many of its details.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: It is perfectly open to Mr.
Deakin, with the resources of the Australian Government at his
disposal, to differ from the view of the facts which was taken by this
Government, with such resources as we have at our disposal.
Mr. DEAKIN: Still there are the facts, we had proposed a pre-
ference. The implication in both question and answer is that we have
done nothing to lighten our tariff, whereas we had not only referred
the case of the New Hebrides to our Tariff Commission (that is,
of course, a matter of our internal politics, as to which you need not
have any knowledge), but we have also been in correspondence with
you to discover whether it was not possible for us to give a prefer-
ence to these particular settlers on these very products.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Since when?
Mr. DEAKIN : I read the correspondence at yesterday's meeting,
but have not brought it to-day. I read that correspondence and the
telegrams yesterday that were sent to us saying that we could not dis-
criminate. Then we asked them about the discrimination to French
nationals in New Caledonia.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: The report was to the effect that
the tendency of the tariff over a long period of years had been pre-
judicial to the development of British settlements in the New Heb-
rides. It is quite clear that anything done in the last year or
eighteen months would not have affected the substantial truth or
justice of that conclusion, although I quite agree from tlie point of
view of the Australian Government if a movement had been made,
it was desirable that it should have been stated. I say at once that
if I had known it, I would have stated it.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
565
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: Of course you would, but the statement which
was made was wrong, and that which you are now repeating is wrong
again. New South Wales never had a closed port, and the business
of the New Hebrides was with Sydney only. That is one of the
ridiculous insinuations of the writer. The New Hebrides enjoyed an
absolutely free port, which was and is the only port with which they
have any trade; they sent all their goods to New South Wales, where
they were all absolutely free until we imposed the Commonwealth
tariff in 1901. Instead of their being liable to duty over a long series
of years, they had Free Trade all the time up till 1901. In 1901,
1902, and 1903 our new duties had no effect, because the demand for
maize was so exceptional. Instead of operating over a long period
of years, our tariff had only operated for two years, 1904 and 1905.
Now, what is the fact? Mr. Whitehead suggests that our policy
has limited the number of British settlers. The Commonwealth
Government, at an expense of several thousands of pounds, has
planted British settlers in the New Hebrides, and endeavoured after-
wards to give them a tariff concession. Will it be believed that at
the time this answer was given in addition to that I obtained from
the House a sum of 500Z. to pay to these very settlers? They are
only a handful of maize growers, and this sum enabled us to make
up to them the difference caused by the effect of our tariff. We are
paying out of our own pocket enough to enable these people not to be
affected by our duties.
Wliat is the knowledge in this office? All these facts have been
published in our newspapers; we are actually spending our own
money to prevent these people being affected by our tariff, and have
tried to grant them a preferential tariff. Then when a question in
the House of Commons directly implies that we who had put settlers
there were injuring them, and doing nothing to help them, the only
answer given is that we are only proposing to do something in the
future. All these circumstances were ignored; the fact is, that we
have taken the greatest possible pains to endeavour to help these
people, first to put them there, then to keep them and then to give
them speecial advantages, finally voting them bounties. Yet not one of
these facts is referred to. I am quite content that this incident should
be buried, even with regard to those behind the political responsible
heads who committed these oversights, but the misfortune is that
such slanders tell against us very much. Not only this answer, but
other official references on which I do not wish to dwell have created
an idea that the Australian Government, while clamouring for every-
thing to be done in the New Hebrides, is at the same time doing
everything it can to impede the success of its settlers.
Mr. WINSTON CHUHCHILL: No, the only suggestion made
for which I have any responsibility is that the policy of the Com-
monwealth has not sufficiently considered the interests of British
colonization in the New Hebrides. It is quite possible now, in fact
it is recognised even in that answer to the question, that the Com-
monwealth Government is now taking a different view, and perhaps
if that view had been taken at an earlier stage, the disproportion
between the British and French settlers would not have been as great
as it is.
Mr. DEAKIN: Not at all; that is another of Sir Everard's
mistakes.
Mr. WINSTON CHUECmLL: We are bound to believe state-
Fourteenth.
Day.
9th May,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
56S
COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
Fourteenth
Day.
9th Mav,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
(Mr.
Winston
Chnrchill.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ments made upon the authority of our Governor and representative;
it is a great pity that we cannot discuss over the telephone with you
in Australia the answers which have to be given in the House of
Commons. I am sure I should welcome the opiJortunity, but very
often having twenty questions a day to answer in the House of Com-
mons, it would not be a very easy matter. In the meanwhile, that not
being a possibility, we have to go to the documents which are before
us from our responsible representative abroad.
Mr. DEAKIN: Quite so, and I have not said a single word that
conveys a suggestion of anything else.
Mr. WINSTON CHUECHILL: I should be very sorry if the
answer I gave in any way appeared detrimental to the interests of the
Dominion affected and was at the particular time contrary to the fact.
Mr. DEAKIN: It has been detrimental; these answers are also
cabled out, and our people cannot understand how it happens. It has
had a very bad effect here because it is one of a strain of the same
sort of misrepresentations.
I take it that what we are entitled to expect on these matters is
that somebody in a great office like this should be kept sufficiently
well informed of our ordinary public matters so as to be able to put
accurate answers into the hands of Ministers.
Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I think it would be a great
advantage. I very much regret that I have to go to Manchester al-
most immediately, but J think it would be a very great advantage if
our attention was drawn by letter and despatch to any inaccuracies
in these statements.
Mr. DEAKIN: A letter takes nearly five weeks to reach us, and
five weeks to get back, that is nearly three months, by then the whole
thing is dead.
Mr. WINSTON CHUECHILL: True, the distance is one of the
most difficult facts that we have to deal with in the British Empire.
CHAIEilAN : If we could all meet across the table like this these
unfortunate happenings would be avoided.
Mr. DEAKIN: I have finished with that mattei', Mr. Churchill.
T have no desire to revive these incidents except as warnings for the
future and in order to explain the feeling that exists. Lord Elgin
may think that on this matter I hold strong views. I do, but they
are shared by thousands. On this matter I am certain that you can-
not find a newspaper in Australia that has a word to say in defence
of our treatment in relation to the New Hebrides. I am now speak-
ing of the way we are treated quite apart from all issues as to the
merits of this and that Article of the Convention. All of those I
dismiss. They are settled and accepted for the present, but you can-
not find a newspaper of any shade of polities of tlie least importance
that upholds your action. It is unfortunate; it is to be avoided.
The maintenance of a good understanding is impossible when all
public opinion and the Press become adverse. Especially when we
are unable to follow o\ir invariable habit of defending in public any
statements made by or on behalf of the British Government. Could
it be supposed by us to be necessary to talk about what we have done
in these islands? We are paying an extra subsidy to the only line
of steamers which plies there, and which would not ply there at all
ivut for them. We paid the man extra siibsiily for the assistance in
COLOMAL COyFERE^'CE, l'J07
667
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the New Hebrides, of our settlers, the British settlers. We induced
those steamers in consequence of our subsidy to lower their freights
for maize 75 per cent. Those settlers have been sending their maize
to the markets of Sydney at only 25 per cent, of what they paid be-
fore we intervened, so that we are not only helping them by a grant,
but reduce their freights to 25 per cent, of the ordinary rate. Yet it
is alleged here that we have never lifted a finger for them but only to
tax and impede them.
We became indirectly the controlling power, although not the
owners, of certain lands in the New Hebrides, and we made these
available for British settlers at the nominal figure of a shilling a year
for 50 acres. That was in order to give those who had not sufficient
land there, or others they could bring with them, an opportunity of
making a living in the group. What hajs the United Kingdom ever
done for its settlers outside its territory to compare with this?
J have now finished the story of what we did for the settlers in
the New Hebrides, and why we resent a good deal of the criticism
to which we have been subjected in regard to them.
CHAIEMAN: I would like to say at once that there is no doubt
on the part of His Majesty's Government of the importance of the
Pacific, and I entirely agree with Mr. Donkin, that the aim must be
that as between the United Kingdom and the Dominions beyond the
Seas there should be no difference whatever with regard to the in-
terests we feel in them. J did not know the extent to which Mr.
Deakin was going into the past history of this subject, and I am not
prepared to- follow him throughout, and I do not know that he will
expect me to do so. I think he admitted that the actual authority of
Great Britain was subject to some limitations in the Pacific and had
always been.
Mr. DEAKIN : It extended as far as " Tahiti."
CHAIRMAN : Mr. Deakin said that it was " indefinitely ' ' under
British authority, and I think another expression he used was, that
Australia " practically had " more extensive interests than had been
admitted. I am not sure that that carries us very far, because, after
all, we have to bear in mind that when you convert indefinite in-
terests into actual interests you assume an amount of responsibility,
and you become liable to an amount of cost, which does not apply
to the indefinite possession, and of course we in this country, though
we are willing and desirous to do all that we can to protect the Dom-
inions beyond the Seas, and have been so in the past and now hope
to be equally energetic with your assistance, there is a limit to the
extensions which we can contemplate, and certainly to the rapidity
with which those are made. If other nations — which, after all, we
cannot exclude from interest in the Pacific Ocean — ^have advanced
and established themselves in certain parts of it, J do not think that
is qiiite justifiable to impute to us on that account that we have
caused what I think Mr. Deakin described as a sense of aggravated
loss to the Commonwealth or to Australia. At all events, if there has
been that sense, I hope that he will take into account the other con-
siderations to which I have drawn attention, and believe that it was
not at any rate from any intention, I am sure, of our predecessors
any more than it is of ourselves to cau.se aggravated loss, or in any
way to undervalue the sense of interest which I can understand is
more present to them out there than perhaps it is possible that we
9ho\i](l feel. I do not think that I shall serve any useful purpose if I
Fourteenth
Day.
9th May,
1907.
British
Interests
in the
Pacific.
^Mr.
Deakin.)
568 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fonrteenth follow through the details of the history of the New Hebrides which
9th May, ^^- I^e^kin has given. I will only just remark this, that .1 am in-
1907. ' formed with regard to the British Eesident that he has a legal status,
. , and I know that the amount which he has been able
Interests ^° *^° ^^^® been recognised, recognised not only by his
in the superiors but by others who are in no way responsible for it. There-
Pacific, {ore, so far as that is concerned, I will only say that I deeply regret
(Chairman.) jf there has been the feeling which Mr. Deakin described as exas-
peration from the series of incidents. I deeply regret it, but at the
same time I cannot altogether admit that we are to take full respon-
sibility for that, or that we are perhaps quite so guilty as Mr.
Deakin's eloquence would make us appear.
.1 must say a word or two, I think, as Mr. Deakin has put aside
the details of the convention, not with regard to the details of the
convention, but to what he has said with regard to the manner in
which that convention was negotiated. He referred to a despatch
signed by himself on the 29th August, which he quoted, and I will
not repeat the quotation in the second paragraph, but I should like
to draw attention to this: that he went on to mention (it occurs in
paragraph 3) certain conditions under which the Joint Protectorate
might be appointed, and he said this : " It would be mosrt acceptable,
" if the conditions upon which the Protectorate is to be established, or
" any amendment of them afterwards, in addition to receiving the
" approval of His Majesty's Government and the Republic of France,
" were submitted for the consent of the Commonwealth and of New
" Zealand prior to their adoption by His Majesty's Government. "
That was the request which he made in August, 1905. Now, Mr.
Deakin said, or rather implied, I think, that there was some cause of
complaint as to delay in dealing with these matters. I was not re-
sponsible, of course, for the first part of it, but I should say for my
predecessors that this letter was dated August 29th. That letter of
August 29th would not arrive until a month or five weeks afterwards^
that was a time when Parliament was not sitting; but on November .
4th a telegram was sent to New Zealand. The New Zealand Govern-
ment replied; that reply was not received till December 5th; and on
December 9th steps were taken to proceed with the arrangement.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Wliat year was that?
CHAIRMAN : 1905.
Mr. DEAKIN: I beg your pardon; the delay was not in the pro-
cedure, but in informing us of the procedure and its meaning.
CHAIRMAN : I am coming to that, I think you also thought
there was delay there.
Mr. DEAKIN: No.
CHAIRMAN : So far so good. It went on and, of course, we came
into office soon after that, and at once proceeded with the commis-
sion which our predecessors had started, and it went on without delay.
But Mr. Deakin makes two complaints against us in that respect. In
the first place that the Commission was not announced to him — I
cannot explain that without further inquiry — I do not know how it
happened. If it was my inadvertenee I apologise, but on a change
of Governments sometimes these things may occur. Anyhow on the
second complaint I should like to say a word or two, and that is
that the characteristics of the Commi.ssion appeared first in the
newspapers and first reached Australia through the newspapers. Now
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 609
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
I ought to say that I took the most careful precautions myself to Fonrteenth
preserve the strictest privacy with regard to all the documents of this o.,^*Z"
Commission with the object of their reaching the Australian and New 1907.^
Zealand Governments before anybody knew anything of it all. Acci- — 77-
dents will happen and in this case an accident did happen. I should t ^ ta
also just like to remind Mr. Deakin that at the time this was goirj; in the
on a colleague of his was in this country, Sir John Forrest, and lif Pacific,
brought me a message, I think, in regard to the Convention to which !Chairman.>
I attended to the best of my ability, and therefore we had through
him the advantage of communication with those who are responsible
to Australia in these matters. I do not say that in any way to im-
ply that Sir John Forrest came to me with any authority to repre-
sent the Australian Government, but at the same time
Mr. DEAKIN : He was a member of it.
OBLA.IRMAN: He was a member of it, and I took advantage of
.his being here to converse with him on the subject. That was how
it stood. We did our best to keep the thing secret until it reached
the hands of the Commonwealth Government. I admit we did not
succeed entirely in doing so, but there it stood, and then the Govern-
ments in Australia and New Zealand had their opportunity of stig-
gesting amendments.
Now, Mr. Deakin has referred to a passage which has often been
referred to in which it is said that " the draft convention must there-
fore be confirmed or rejected practically as it stands. " I wish to
make one explanation in regard to that. Taken by itself that may
seem a very peremptory statement, but it really means if you are
to accept the Convention at all it is obvious we cannot do very much
more with the French in the matter. At the same time an oppor-
tunity was given to the Governments to submit amendments, and they
did submit amendments. We were prepared to negotiate with the
French Government again, and were on the point of doing so, when
circumstances arose which induced the Australian Government to
advise that we should close with them at once, and we did so. That
is the history, and I venture to think that at any rate in intention
we did not neglect the interests of the Colonies, but did our best
to secure them, and also with the full cognisance and revision by the
Colonies as far as it was possible to do so. That is all I have really
to say upon that. It is a question which has caused a great deal of
uneasiness. The last thing I should wish to do as far as I personally
am concerned is to treat the Colonies in an overbearing manner;
and I can only assure the representatives here that every effort will
be made to avoid their finding cause of complaint again. But I also
wish to put on record that as far as the negotiations are concerned
I think that we were well represented. Mr. Deakin asked that our
representatives should be well informed and capable.
Mr. DEAKIN : I said they were well informed and capable. I
do not take any exception to them now. The only exception that has
been taken is that they were not acquainted with the islands them-
selves or the circumstances of island life as M. Picanon was directly
and Mr. Saint-German was indirectly. M. Picanon is an extremely
able man, and so is M. Saint-Germain, with the additional advantage
that M. Picanon had lived in the Pacific, and the English represen-
tatives did not.
CHAIRMAN : We admit certainly that they had that advantage ;
570 COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
r-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fourteenth I only wish to say that, having been consulted on these negotiations
9th ^ay ^'^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^® representatives who came in here to see nie, I
1907. cannot help thinking we did rather well.
British ^r- DEAKIN: Tou did exactly what they expected you to do.
Interests I do not say you did badly on that account.
Pacific. CHAIEilAN: ,1 do not think Mr. Deakin will want me to say
(Chairman.) more upon the subject of that particular Convention.
CHArRMA?T: There is only one other item on the Agenda.
Sir WILFEED LAURIER : I am not prepared to take up any
other point now.
CHAIRMAX: Could we dispose of this in 10 minutes?
Mr. DEAKIX: I do not think so. J want to say something with
regard to the interchange of officers and the questions arising out
of that.
CHAIRMAN : Of course, I am in your hands entirely. In the
despatch with regard to this Conference, it was assiimed that the
members coming from beyond the seas would wish to separate by the
end of four weeks. We have now reached that point, and I have
done my best to finish, and have brought you very near it. If, how-
ever, it is more conveninent to finish by having another meeting,
we can meet again on Monday morning.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think it would be advisable.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: General Botha will be gone; but I do not know
that anybody else will.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Is it understood that we close the Confer-
ence on Monday.
Dr. SMARTT : Would not Tuesday do instead of Mondav, would
it?
CHAIRMAN : As far as I am concerned, I am entirely at your
disposal, as I have been throughout. Is Tuesday more convenient?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : To me Tuesday and Monday are the
days that would be convenient. Dr. Smartt has just expressed n
preference for Tuesday, and I am willing to agree to that.
Sir WILLIAil LYNE : It woiild suit me much better, too.
CHAIRJfAN : Then we will make it 11 o'clock on Tuesday.
Adjourned to Tuesday next at 11 o'clock.
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
571
FIFTEENTH DAY.
Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Tuesday, 14th May, 1907.
Present :
The Right Honourable The EAEL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of
State for the Colonies (President.)
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Lai'rier, G.C.M.G., Prime
Minister of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia
and Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries
(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Com-
monwealth of Australia.
The Honourable Sir W. Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).
The Right Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Min-
ister of New Zealand.
The Right Honourable Sir Robert Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Min-
ister of Newfoundland.
The Eight Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of
Cape Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works
(Cape Colony).
The Right Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
The Right Honourable Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamen-
tary Under Secretary of State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Sec-
retary of State for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., KC.I.E., on behalf of the India
Office.
Mr. W. H. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G.,
Joint Secretaries.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,
Assistant Secretary.
Also Present :
The Right Honourable D. Lloyd George, il.P., President of the
Board of Trade.
Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, C.B., Permanent Secretary to the
Board of Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fox, C.B., Comptroller-General of the Commercial,
Statistical, and LaboTir Departments of the Board of Trade.
The Right Honourable Sir Edward Grey, Bart., M.P., Principal
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Fitteentb
Dav.
14th May,
1907.
S72 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth The Eight Honourable Sydney Buxton, M.P., Postmaster Gen-
14th May, ,^ ^'ff- ^
1907. Mr. H. Babengton Smith, C.B., C.S.I., Secretary to the Post
Office.
CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, there are one or two notices which I
have received, one of them from Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and Mr. Lloyd
George has attended, in order to spealj to that. As Mr. Lloyd
George has to leave, perhaps the Conference will allow that to be
mentioned first.
MALL SERVICE TO AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND VIA
Mail CANADA.
Service to
tnd*New ^^^ W.ILFRID LAURIER: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, on dif-
Zealand via ferent occasions during the present Conference mention has been
Canada, made of the idea of connecting all parts of the Empire, so far as it
can be done, with an improved system of communication; and I
said at the last meeting that I would be prepared to lay on the table
a resolution, which I now read : " That in the opinion of this Con-
" ference the interests of the Empire demand that in so far as pos-
" sible its different portions should be connected by the best possible
" means of mail communication, travel, and transportation ; that to
" this end steps should immediately be taken to establish a fast ser-
" vice from Great Britain to Canada, and through Canada to Austra-
" lia and New Zealand, and also to China and Japan ; that such service
" upon the Atlantic Ocean should be carried on by means of steam-
" ships, equal in speed and character to the best now in existence,
" and upon the Pacific Ocean by steamships of a speed of not less
" than 18 knots, and in other respects as nearly equal to the Atlantic
" ships as circumstances will permit ; that for the purpose of carry-
" ing the above project into effect, such financial support as may be
" necessary should be contributed by Great Britain, Canada, Aus-
" tralia, and New Zealand in equitiible proportions."
The resolution I have now the honour to submit to the Conference
resolves itself into two parts: the part which affects the Atlantic
Ocean and the part which affects the Pacific Ocean. At the present
time Great Britain has a mail service between the United Kingdom
and New York of a very high character. We have a mail service also
between Canada and Great Britain not aided by the British Govern-
ment. If we had on the Atlantic Ocean between Canada and Great
Britain a mail service equal in speed and character to the service
now in existence between England and New York, there is no doubt,
and there can be no doubt at all, that we would save in the journey
at least two days, or about two days, inasmuch as we have an ad-
vantage in our favour in distance of nearly 900 miles. Taking the
figures between Liverpool and New York and Liverpool and Halifax,
the distance in our favour, I think, is exactly 882 miles, or in the
neighbourhood of 900 miles. Therefore, it follows, as a thing which
cannot be disputed, that if we have a service of equal speed, and
offering the same advantages and inducements as the service which
now plies between New York and Liverpool, we would save in dis-
tance to bo travelled at least two days. The actual miles between
Liverpool and Halifax are exnctiv 2,342. The distance between
Liverpool and Quebec, which might bo the summer route by way of
the Strait of Belle Isle, is 2,636 miles. The distance between Liver-
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 673
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
pool and Vancouver by way of Halifax is 6,004 miles; the distance Fifteenth
from Liverpool to Vancouver via Quebec is 5,330; it is a little ij,.?*Af
shorter via Quebec. Halifax is nearer than Quebec from Liverpool. J907
I do not think there can be any dispute but that a great advantage —
would be derived and easily a service could be made in eight days — Ser^^ t
four days on the Atlantic, and four days crossing the Continent or Australia
probably less. „ ^""^ ^^'^
Zealand via
Sir WILLJAM LYNE : That is to Vancouver. Canada.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes, to Vancouver. As to this pro- ^ Lanrilr.f'*
position I do not apprehend that there can be any two views upon the
subject. The facts cannot be disputed that a service can be abbre-
viated and very much shortened by using the line from England to
Halifax in preference to the line from England to New York.
With regard to the Pacific Ocean, in the motion which I have
proposed I say that the object we should have in view should be to
establish a steamship service of at least 18 knots. If this be accepted,
the distance between Vancouver and, say, Sydney, taking that as an
objective point, would be 6,818 knots.
Sir WILLTAM LYNE : That is leaving out New Zealand.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I take Sydney as an objective point.
The figures might be modified vnih regard to the different ports. The
distance would be 6,818 knots to Sydney. The distance could be
covered in 16 days, and therefore we should have between England
and Sydney a service of about 24 days — four days across the Atlantic,
four days across the Continent, and 16 days on the Pacific Ocean.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: How many miles to New Zealand?
Sir WILFRED LAURIER : A little less— about 300 miles less.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That would make it about 23 days.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The only objection I see to the plan
which I now propose, as far as the Pacific Ocean is concerned, is
having at once a service of 18 knots. I think it is an object, how-
ever, which should be kept in mind, as a goal to be striven to. I do
not say that it would be possible to have it in operation immediately,
but the proposition that I lay before the Conference is that it is a
goal which you should endeavour to reach to have a service of 18
knots on the Pacific Ocean. If you can accomplish that service of
18 knots on the Pacific Ocean there is no doubt whatever — the thing
is mathematical — that you can have between England and Australia
a service of 25 days, which is far in advance of anything we have at
the present time. Of course, it requires some money. This thing can-
not be done without we have more expenditure. No line could under-
take such a service as that unless it had a liberal subsidy from the
Governments concerned. What should be the proportions of the
different Governments interested in this, is a question, which, at this
moment, I would not be prepared to venture any opinion upon. In
the resolution which I have submitted, .1 simply say that the service
ought to be supported in not equal but equitable shares. I am pre-
pared to say that the Government of Canada would have to contri-
bute liberally, perhaps more liberally than the others, because it would
have to contribute to both sides, both the Pacific and the Atlantic.
Therefore, Lord Elgin, I submit this resolution to the favourable
consideration of the Conference.
Mr. DEABTM : My Lord. I am very glad that this proposition has
574
COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907
Fifteenth
Day.
14th May,
1907.
Mail
Service to
Australia
and New
Zealand via
Canada.
I Mr.
Deakiu.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
been submitted by the Prime Minister of Canada, and feel sure that
the Commonwealth would look upon it with the utmost sympathy,
even if it went no further than studying the interests of Canada,
itself in her Atlantic service, although that is not a matter on which
we are entitled to speak. It appears to us manifest that the Cana-
dian position cannot be secured, or its claim as a part of the Empire
fully recognised, until it is enabled to meet its formidable competitor
to the south with a means of communication equal to that which is
supplied to New York. We recognise that, and sympathise with every
effort which may be made to give effect to it.
But, of course, the interest of Australia in the Pacific trade might
be as great as Canada is getting in its direct communication
if we can foresee the possibility of obtaining such a service as Sir
Wilfrid has referred to, on terms that the Commonwealth could afford
to face. It would mean so great a reduction of the time at present
occupied that it would be invaluable for a mail service. Our difficulty
is that we can scarcely see how with vessels of that speed with the
freight charges which they would make, and with the double task of
transhipment involved by a railway joiirney between two lines of
mail steamers, it could ever become a cargo line.
Mr. LLOYD GEOEGE : That is one of the questions I wanted to
put.
Mr. DEAKEN: The goods you send to us are goods of bulk and
weight, and when our ships face foreign competitors, especially those
subsidised, the competition becomes very keen. Certainly, British
goods could not afford to pay mail freight, except for small, excep-
tional, or light parcels. In the same way the raw materials we send
to you are even more bulky. The charges on two transhipments put
them out of the category of possible trade. This would, therefore,
be for us a fast passenger and mail line of communication, and as
such, very valuable. We should welcome it most cordially if it can
be financed. The saving of a number of days is a consideration for
commercial men who travel or who communicate by post. Conse-
quently, we do not look coldly upon this proposition, though I am
bound to say that its economic possibilities on oiir side are so limited
that the subsidies required may be quite beyond our means. My
colleague, in whose Department these questions more immediately
are, has made some examination of this proposal.
CHAIRMAN: We should be. glad to hear Sir William Lyne.
Mr. DEAKTN: May T add that at present our connection with
this country is by the alternative routes round the Cape or through
the Suez Canal? These are our principal routes and must always
remain our great cargo routes because there is no transhipment.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : And, from the point of view of develop-
ing trade, they are much more important.
^Fr. DEAKTN : Yos, much more important, except so far as our
trade can be assisted by quicker mail and passenger communication.
Our principal routes must remain in the other direction. We also are
even at this moment endeavouring to obtain a swifter means of com-
municntion through the Canal, and swifter transit around the Cape.
It will be. T presume, a part of the policy of the Briti.^h Government,
so far as financial considerations permit and business oppnrt\inities
juBtify. to encourage an nll-ro\ind route — the half which goes through
America ami the other half which goes either round the Cape or
Dealtin.)
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 675
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
through the Canal. As the Antipodes are reached whether you go Fifteeuth
east or west, we are interested in the development of this proposal ,..P^?;
made to you hy Sir Wilfrid Laurier. We are also interested in the 1907."^'
development of our existing means of communication which go east
instead of west, and trust that practicable projects relating to both „ . .
of them will be submitted by and to His Majesty's Government in Australia
due course. ' and New
Zealand vi&
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: My Lord and gentlemen, this route has Canada.
been advocated very often in Australia. It is known to us as " the y^j^.f^
all-red route " being through British territory all the way, and it is
very much desired that we should get it, but I am afraid, with my
Prime Minister, that the subsidy would have to be very large. I have
had the matter submitted to me, and have made calculations, and. as
far as I can gather with the stoppages that would be necessary, you
could not reach Australia with an 18-knot service under .30 days, that
is, if you go via New Zealand. That is a consideration, because, of
course, New Zealand would be expected and asked to add to the sub-
sidy, and, I think Sir Joseph Ward would like the service to go via
New Zealand. It is roundly 8,000 knots from Vancouver via New
Zealand to Sydney, and the distance was given just now of 6,800
knots if you leave New Zealand out. I look at it from a practical
standpoint. I think eight days from Liverpool to Vancouver is a
short time. Four days by water from here and four days by rail. I
am not a judge of that, but it strikes me as being short. When you
leave Vancouver you have to call about four times, I think, before
you get to Sydney, and you cannot stop without wasting time and
losing time. If you take the distance direct you could do it via New
Zealand in 27 days, but if you take the stoppages I think it would
take you 30 days. To be of service it shoiild not take much more
than three weeks. It is just a question as to how much money would
be required to enable a company to do it. The trade is not great at
present. I hope it will grow. When the line was first started be-
tween Sydney and Vancouver the trade was nothing. That has grown
considerably, but not as mTich as we could wish, and though I am
satisfied with the Prime Minister that the Commonwealth Parlia-
ment would look favourably at this question, it is all a matter of
practical results. As far as J can gather from the resolution pro-
posed by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, T cannot see any harm in it, because
it is a matter to be desired and a question to be inquired into. Of
course. Canada would receive the greater benefit by getting a fast
service from Liverpool, and would be prepared, I suppose, to pay a
larger proportion of subsidy. I just wish to put clearly before the .
Conference, that .30 days at 18 knots is about what it would take to
go via New Zealand. I had a letter from one of the leading com-
panies this morning in which they say the last 3 knots would just
double the consumption of coal, or very nearly, which is a very great
item.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I am a little
disappointed, I candidly say, at the suggested speed of this line of
steamers as outlined by my friend. Sir Wilfrid Laurier. I think it
is too slow. If we want to do something really practical in this
matter, we want to recognise what the existing condition of matters
until a short time ago has been from the standpoint of the further-
most of the British countries affected. There is a route now from
New Zealand to London via San Francisco bv the American route
m
COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907
Fifteenth
Day.
14th Mav,
1907.
Mail
Service to
Australia
and New
Zealand vin
Canada.
{Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
which we used for many years. This suggestion low made is to
practically give us about the same time to Londo.i 'ia Canada that
we have been enjoying from New Zealand for a long period of years
via San Francisco. It has been quite a common matter for mails to
reach London from New Zealand in 27 or 28 days and vice versa. If
we are, and I am sure we are, practically sincere and anxious to bring
into very much closer touch all portions of the outlying colonies, we
ought to have some improvement upon what has been in existence
for quite a number of years. From the standpoint of New Zealand,
although we are quite willing to come into this matter in order to
have an effective service, if it is going to be only equal to what we
have been getting with comparatively a small subsidy from our coun-
try, then from our point of view we are not going to get ahead very
far. Sir Wilfrid Laurier is very anxious I know to bring about an
improved service, and I want New Zealand to help to her utmost
capacity. I attach the greatest importance to speed and efficiency.
I went from this country specially in 1S95 to Ottawa to interview the
then Government in Canada in order to have a mail contract entered
into between New Zealand and Canada via Vancouver to give us that
alternative route as against the American one. We wanted to have
the Vancouver one all through the piece, and we entered into the
contract at that time for a very suitable service, but unfortunately
difficulties with the contractors supervened, and that service was for
various reasons withdrawn from New Zealand and transferred to
Queensland, and that rendered the service from New Zealand to
Canada, and Canada to England impracticable. If we are prepared
only to give a moderate subsidy towards obtaining such a service as
suggested here, then I admit the possibilities of getting a fast service
are very remote. My idea was, and is now, that New Zealand at all
events should give an incomparably larger sum than it has ever given
for the purpose of bringing it closer to England. We have had the
authority of Parliament of iOfiOOl. a year for years past; that is
20,000Z. each to the one via Vancouver and the one via San Francisco.
I am prepared to say that our country would be prepared to go to
lOO.OOOZ. a year without a moment's hesitation in order to get a fast
serivce across the Pacific and through Canada across the Atlantic if
it were one of say twenty days or three weeks. But I want more than
18 knots an hour and J will give my reasons. This proposal ought
to be divided into two; first there should be an effort made to get a
fast service from the English coast to Canada, and that service ought
to be a 22-knot service at least.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: 24.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Or for preference a 24-knot service. You
get steamers now running from here to New York which do the
journey right through frequently at 21 knots an hour over the whole
passage. I went across nearly at 22 knots myself 12 years ago. It
is only a question of money whether you can get a speed of the kind.
It is admitted and must be conceded from the steamship owners' point
of view, that to have a 2.3-knot or even 24-knot service to Canada
with a number of days when the steamer has to provide for coaling
and incidental attendance to machinery is quite within the bounds
of possibility, and there is no difficulty provided you like to pay
enough money for it. Conceive the possibility of that service being
carried across at 23 knots an hour. That brings Canada and England
within four days of one another. Beyond all doubt wo are quite
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 577
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
prepared to give our proportion for such a service on the Pacific be- Fiftecuth
tween Canada and New Zealand so as to make the other portion of ,,^P^i^'
the link between the Colonies and the Old World. Sir Wilfrid 1907. " '
Laurier has said, and I have heard it said by other Canadian gentle- —
men well-informed too, that it is quite possible to do the Canadian c- '^J?" ^
journey across that continent by rail in four daj's. That makes eight Au>tialia
days from England to Vancouver. Now, come to the question of the ^"^ ■^^"..
Pacific. I iniiy be taking too sanguine a view of it, but I base all my *Cauada^'^
remarks upon the one potential factor, that if j'ou want to have this (gir .Toseph
close connection you must pay sufficient money for steamers of large Ward.)
tonnage— passenger and mail steamers only, I should say, except for
the purpose of carrying certain cargo between Canada, Australia,
and New Zealand. To expect it to be used for a cargo service
throughout, from Australia and New Zealand across Canada to Eng-
land is to expect what is not possible. .1 do not contemplate it will
ever be possible to carrj- cargo across the Canadian continent and
tranship it at both ends. For ordinary cargo purposes, we ought from
a practical, common-sense, business standpoint, to rely for transport,
as every eoimtry in the world does, on tramps, keeping them quite
distinct from a passenger and mail service. Between Australia and
England the great proportion of cargo coming from there is carried
by cargo steamers — tramps. It is quite true the great liners provide
a certain amount of cold storage of perishable products, but they
carry only a limited quantity of cargo. If we are going to mix up
the two systems, and try, as it were, to call for the moon by expect-
ing to have a cargo service, and a fast passenger service across the
Atlantic, across Canada, and the Pacific all in one. we might as well
agree to abandon it altogether and let it go. It is not possible to bring
about anything practical in that way at all. I apply my remarks, first
of all, to providing a large subsidy which is essential, and which I
think the countries ought to be prepared to pay if they want to do
something raotical. Then, next, come the possibilities %cross the
Pacific; the distance from Vancouver to Wellington is 6,5S9 miles,
to Auckland it is 279 miles less. If this Vancouver service is carried
out I am sure Australia has the sentiment, and we have it too. that
we ought to remove every element of parochialism of every possible
kind, and should establish a service which is the swiftest and best for
the whole of us. If this service, as is indicated here, is to go to
Sydney first, and then on to New Zealand from England, we would
not give anything whatever to it. I say that very frankly, because
that would be putting the cart before the horse. The nearest country
from Vancouver is New Zealand, and the first touched at ought to be
the country which is nearest, and then it should pass on to the other
country, which is to have the first turn coming backwards, from
Australia to Vancouver, and which would be the first place to receive
benefits of that kind. It should only touch at New Zealand. Sydney
remaining the terminal port, and getting all the benefits of the ter-
minal business, and the employment of labour supplying provisions
attendant upon it. If you want this service to be a success, the onl.v
country the boats should touch first is the country en route either
going or coming. I want to discuss the possibilities from the New
Zealand point of view, because we have an alternative, and that alter-
native I should reluctantly carry out on behalf of our country, that
is, to put our money down and run a service via San Francisco.
Unless the British Government, Canada, and Australia recognize the
position in which New Zealand is, that we are a growing country and
58—37
578 COLOXIAL COXFEREyCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
lifteentb an important country, though a smaller country than some of the
?^J/ others, we cannot afford as a developing country and a progressing
1907. " ' country to be kept at a great distance from England, owing to our
circumstances as to geographical position. We cannot allow that
Mail condition of matters to exist. I am making my own position clear
Australia not presuming to suggest what anybody else thinks, but from the
and New^ practical point of view of New Zealand, in order to approach this
Canada^'" from the practical point of the usefulness to England to Canada and
(Sir Joseph ^o New Zealand, and to Australia, too, the route for that service
Ward.) distinctly from the Pacific side would be shorter from Vancouver to
Auckland, which, as I say, is nearly 300 miles shorter than the dis-
tance stated in this chart furnished here. ,It is aboiit 6,-300 miles to
Auckland from Vancouver. The contractors at their option would
call at either Wellington or Auckland. I approach it from the stand-
point that we must have New Zealand as one of the intermediate
ports for touching at only, that is, steamers would remain there half-
a-dozen hoTirs as has been the case all along with the San Francisco
mail steamers. We gave the major portion of the subsidy to that
service, and Australia, Sydney especially, got the full benefit of it,
being a terminal port, and giving a very small amount of subsidy
towards it. That position we recognised as unavoidable.
Now coming to the question of the speed across the Pacific, there
are two touching places for coaling. From Vancouver to Honolulu,
with a service such as we are contemplating here, would be done under
three days.
Dr. JAMESON :You are limiting your remarks to a fast mail
service, nothing to do with cargo at all?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, I said we require cargo to "be carried
by tramps. This is a fast mail service — a passenger service with a fast
speed, such as, if we gave a large cmitribution from our country, we
should expect. For coaling purposes and for the necessities of carry-
ing on a big steamship service, Honolulu is within three days steam
of Vancouver. It is only four days under the existing service from
San Francisco to Honolulu with the ordinary steamers trading there,
and only four days when the San Francisco steamers were running to
New Zealand. The next point is from Honolulu to Suva, which is the
other place they would touch at. That woidd be about six ilays with
the high speed I am talking of. It was done in seven or eight days
with the mail steamers that were enagaged.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: At what speed?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Only I.' or It) knots. Then from Suva to
New Zealand would be well under three days. The coaling places
referred to by Sir William Lyiu-, which is the all-important element
from a steamship point of view, are within easy distance for fast
steamers which require coal at intervals, and require a few hours'
rest at intervals for machinery purposes. The question arises what
speed is a steamer to put into operation to cross the Pacific? Wliile
Sir Wilfrid Iia\irier was speaking, I was looking into the matter and
T find tiuit with under a i2-knot service — only a little over '21 knots —
the whole business from Vancouver to New Zealand eoidd be done in
practically l.'i days. The whole point comes back to this: Are .vou
looking at the Pacific Ocean as a long .sheet of water \ipon which a
steamer is supposed to be coaled up to the eyes, and jirepared up to
COLONIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907 ■ S79
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
the hilt to do a 6,000 mile journey without any assistance whatever Fifteenth
in the wav of coaling facilities? Day.
14th May.
Sir WILFRID LAT^RIER: You can only stop at Honolulu for i907.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Ajid at Suva, which is within six days Service to
steam from Honolulu. It is the stopping point now from Honolulu, Australia,
and 80 you get a coaling depot at Honolulu, and a depot at Suva, and Zealand *via
a coaling depot at Auckland. Xow. our steamers do it in 3 days 3 Canada,
hours from Auckland to Sydney, which is quite common. With a (Sir Joseph
steamer of the speed I am speaking of. they would do it under three ard.)
days quite easily.
We come to the point of the project of bringing the outlying pos-
sessions into touch. This is all-important. We have been talking
aboxit emigration schemes and of subscribing large sums of money
for the purpose of assisting emigrants going from the British Islands
out to Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. If you gave them the
opportunity of third-class accommodation at low rates upon those
steamers of going with this speed to these countries it would be a
good thing. Canada has the inestimable advantage of being very
much closer in that respect, and to some extent it would minimise
its importance to them, but speed, ot course, is a ver;v' important
element to Canada. From our point of view, instead of spending
anything for emigration, we would one hundred thousand times
rather give it as a matter of practical business to a fast service to
bring our countries within three weeks of London. Supposing this
service were to cost probably 300.0007. or 400.000/. a year b.v way of
subsidy.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Do you mean in the aggregate?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, between the whole of us.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Not with a 20-knot service. I am afraid
that does not agree with my information.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: To-day you have got running, and for
many years have had running, from London to Australia throiigh the
Suez Canal, a weekly steamship service between two lines of
steamers, a fortnightly one by each compan.v, and by that route as
far as your subsidies went, for under 180,000?. a year. Australia has
entered into a contract, I understand, for less.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : There is a pretty big trade there— that
IS the difference.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Well, it is a passenger and mail service —
there is very little cargo.
Sir WrLLIA:\I LYNE: And a weekly trade.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : A weekly trade. I understand a contract
has been entered into by Australia for 125,000 I. a year, I do not know
whether I am right in the figures.
Mr. DEAKTX: That was the figure, 125,000?.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : If we are going to aim at getting some-
thing superior in the way of speed to bring these countries together
you cannot hope to get a fast service unless you pay for it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: How many knots would that be? Is not
that a 15 knots service?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: The new service?
58— 37i
580
COLONIAL COXFEREyCE, 1907
Fifteenth
Day.
14th May,
1907.'
Mail
Service to
Australia
and New
Zealand via
Canada.
(Sir Joseph
Ward.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. LLOYD 6E0EGE: No. The service you are referring to
now, that we are subsidizing through the Suez Canal.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: They run about 15 knots. I believe.
Air. LLOYD GEORGE: Y'es, and increasing it to IS knots
would make an enormous difference.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : If you are going to pay 250,000/. a year,
and if the other countries coming in pay another 100,000/. a year, in
my opinion it would be worth it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I agree, if it is onl/ that.
Sir JOSEPH WAED : To bring the countries together as a mat-
ter of business you want to carry out a feasible scheme. If these
steamers running out to Australia should run out to Vancouver and
back again on a 15-knot service I would not give twopence towards
it; I would just as soon travel by our direct cargo steamers, if I
were going home as a matter of speed. From a New Zealand stand-
point, I would not be prepared to put down any money for a slow
service. These powerful self-governing countries are prepared to do
something and we want Britain to join, which would enable us to
come within three weeks of London. For my part, I should be ex-
ceedingly glad to see the proposal made in the direction Sir Wilfrid
Laurier is urging, but with an effort to greater speed to both be-
tween England and Canada, and Canada, Australia, and New Zea-
land. I know the obligations upon Australia for other services are
greater than oiirs, and make them necessarily consider whether they
can afford to give large sums of money to another service running at
a high speed. One can thoroughly understand that as being a rea-
sonable view to take, but the advantages all round to them would be
very great, and it is at all events worthy of consideration. You can-
not tell what the steamship competitors would be prepared to do. If
we were to pass at this Conference a resolution inviting offers, say.
for a service to run from England to Canada, to Quebec or Halifax,
whichever alternative you like, in summer or winter, and make it
a condition that the speed was to be 23 knots an hour, and ask tenders
for it, and do the same thing on the Pacific side, I should go straight
for a 21-knot service there, and find out what amount of subsidy was
required for it. I have got sufficient knowledge of the whole proposi-
tion to realise that you cannot get a fast service like this even with
the coaling depots available at short distances, unless you are pre-
pared to pay a large subsidy for it. What is a few hundred thousand
a year to Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in
order to get something of the kind when you consider the advantages
to be obtained ?
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: What additional amount do you think
a 20-knot service means ?
Sir JOSEPH WAED: I should think 300,000/. a year, by com-
parison with anything you have done for Australia now, including
the Canadian side.
ilr. DEAKIN: You can easily test tliis question by inviting
offers for services at 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24 knots.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: This matter of a route across to Vancou-
ver we have been urging on for many years. I have been at it for
17 or 18 years jiersonally. Every opportunity I have had I
have been talking about improving the service across to Vancouver.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 " 681
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
I took tho trouble 12 years ago to go straight from London to Canada Fifteenth
for the purpose of interviewing the Canadian Government to get a ,,fP*^'
contract signed. I got it signed and took it back to New Zealand, i907_
but where we are going to be landed, as far as New Zealand is con- —
cerned, in the absence of united action is that the " all red route " gg^?,g ^^
which we prefer would have to be given up, and the alternative for Australia
New Zealand will be to go via America. The American service has and New
only ceased at the moment because of the difficulties which cropped ^Canaja^'
up consequent upon the earthquake in San Francisco. It is the fast- (gir Joseph
est way we have from New Zealand. It is the shortest route under Ward.)
any conditions.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: \Vhat knot service is it?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Only a 15 or 16 knot service. I went back
myself from here to New Zealand and landed in New Zealand in
28 days, or rather, I should have done so if I had left hore two days
later. I went on two days ahead from England, and the mails were
landed in 28 days by that route. Our alternative, in order to bring
us close to the Old Country from the standpoint of the nearest route,
is to join with the United States Government and to pay sufficient
money to have an up-to-date line of steamers put on from San Fran-
cisco to Auckland. We would get a faster route than we are getting
here, but as that service is at the moment stopped we ought to try
and secure the " all red route " and help our people to come through
Canada and help Britain to have that route through Canada, and on
to Australia, and New Zealand. I say it is infinitely preferable for
us to put our minds upon that and come together and offer a larger
subsidy to have a fast route for mails and passengers across Canada
and the Pacific, and if we do that we do one of the finest things for
the Empire.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: A service once in four weeks.
Sir JOSEPH v/ARD : The one across America has been a three-
weekly service. I am suggesting now a fortnightly service.
Sir JAMES MACKAY: For 300,000Z. a year?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: 300,OOOZ. a year or whatever it may be.
Speaking from the New Zealand standpoint we are not going to
remain a fifth wheel to a coach in the matter of giving our money to
support a line of steamers as is supported by Britain and Australia
at the present moment, which are slow, for the purpose we desire;
that is the 15-knot service out through the Suez Canal. That is
used by our passengers very largely, and for mail services, but it is
keeping us comparatively in the back woods, and we are not going
to continue to give our money directly or indirectly to a slow service
by the P. & O. and the Orient or any other line, and allow ourselves
to remain in the position of being kept nearly six weeks from Eng-
land, when, at this age of steam development, we know it is quite
possible to get here, under improved conditions, in about three weeks.
So, what I urge is, that we ought to achieve a really fast service by
the best route of the lot, from the passenger point of view. The view
was put forward by Sir Wilfrid Laurier that the service should also
go to China and Japan. It is one of the finest things possible. They
have a line of steamers now from Vancouver to the East — the Em-
press line — which has done a good deal to divert passenger trade
through Canada and England. If you want a large diversion of
trade go for larger and faster steamers on that route and you will
582 COLONIAL COSFERESCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Fifteenth change the direction of the traffic from the East, which is now filter-
14th Mav ^^^ through the Suez Canal, with all its high charges and imposts.
1907. " ' If you want to bring about a revolution and a complete reformation
. in the transport of people, then help Canada to get this fast service
Service to *° ^^ East via Vancouver, and you get an " all red route " there also.
Australia But from the point of view of New Zealand, I only want to make it
7 ^^"^ New as clear as I possibly can that we never contemplated doing a cargo
Canada. business across Canada. We want to help the transport of passen-
<Sir Joseph gers and mails that way, and get them to and from England as fast
Ward.) as possible by that route. As far as cargo is concerned, any man
doing business in the Colonies can make his own arrangements. He
does not want any assistance by way of subsidy. What he wants is
to get some of the charges upon the tramp steamers taken off on the
Suez Canal, which is qiiite a different thing to giving him the benefit
of that shorter route available. We do not want a subsidy for cargo
steamers. Canada and New Zealand, at the moment, in order to
give our people an opportunity of working up trade, are giving 20,-
000/. a year for tramp steamers — 10.000/. each. It is not a sat-
isfactory thing from our point of view or the Canadian point of
view, but we do it in order to give our x>eople a chance of working
up a trade. Once trade develops that subsidy will be withdrawn, and
the cargo steamers will have to work out their own destiny, as
everywhere else, without the material assistance of subsidies.
But if we want to do a great thing for Great Britain and the out-
lying British countries, let us be prepared to pay the necessary
money for it. and bend our efforts to bringing these countries into
close touch with England, which can be done provided wc are pre-
pared to pay enough for it. If we are not prepared to pa.v for it.
we cannot expect to do it at all. I support the resolution of Sir Wil-
frid Laurier because it is in the right direction ; but I would ask
him to alter it in the direction of inviting tenders, and to provide
for faster speed, and to let us have the assurance from the British
Government that the.v will help us.
Sir W.ILEKID LAURIER: I have no objection to making some
such alterations.
Mr. LLOYD GEORCtE: Before altering the resolution, perhaps
you will hear what I have to say as I have one or two suggestions to
make.
Dr. JAMESON: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, this proposal does
not directly affect us at all. but purel.v Australia, Canada, New Zea-
laiid, and the I'nited Kingdom; but what does alarm one a little is
Sir Joseph Ward's suggestion that unless something of the kind is
done the " all rod route " goes and we fall back on San Francisco.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We must, it is our only alternative.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes; these things are often done better piece-
meal. I should have tlioiiglit it was better for Canada to get n better
service with the United Kingdom so as to compete with the Ignited
States. Sir Wilfrid Laurier dealt with a service between the United
Kingdom and Canada. Then there is no reason afterwards for the
alternative tliat Sir Joseph \V^ard put forward as between San iran-
cisco and Vancouver. If you once had a fast service to Canada, and
through Canada, then it might lie a question of dealing with the
second proposition as to whether a fast line should go across the Pa-
cific to Australia and New Zealand. As to whether it goes to Aus-
COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
tralia and New Zealand first, that is a further question to be argued
and settled, but in the meantime you avoid that horrid possibility
of abandoning the " all red route " and entering into an arrange-
ment from San Francisco. If Canada got what is suggested by Sir
Wilfrid J^aurier, a 24-knot service to Canada, then you begin on
the other side to negotiate 15 knots, either 15, 18 or up to 20 knots,
in tlie Pacific.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Under the idea which New Zealand has,
and which I am strongly impressed with myself — and nothing that I
know of so far could change me from it — I know under the mail
arrangements we want to carry out that it is a necessity that Sydney
should be the terminal port for the steamers. That is right. That
means steamers must wait there a week or more for the purpose of
overhauling and all kinds of things, and from the point of view of an
effective mail service via Vancouver, New Zealand must be the point
first touched on at the outward route, because they have to wait so
long when they get to Sydney for all the attendant work required
on the steamer. So, of necessity, in any route we are considering,
and any proposal, if you want to carry it out practically, you must
link New Zealand as the first port outward from Vancouver; other-
wise as far as we are concerned, we have to wait for seven or eight
days after tue steamer has been to Sydney.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Could it not be done by a branch service
from Fiji ?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: No, that means another transhipment,
and people will not stand it in these times.
Dr. JAirESON : That is just the point it must come to, prac-
tically, in plain language, between Australia and New Zealand as
to which gets the service first. I should like to see that dealt with
later on, so as not to prejudice the Canadian suggestion as to a fast
service practically from England to Vancouver.
Mr. DEAKIN: I do not controvert what Sir Joseph Ward has
said at all, but my allusion to it simply pointed to the fact that if
your steamers do not carry cargo you have to give them a larger
subsidy.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Especially for a very fast line of
steamers.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I think in New South Wales we trans-
ferred the subsidy from Queensland to the Vancouver service to help
us, and we have refused to support Speckles, who is the owner of the
American line, two or three times during the last few years. To
support the Vancouver route we gave all we could to that route in-
stead.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We have offered to give the same amount
all through the piece to Vancouver. We have for years paid the
money for San Francisco, because it was the only line we could get.
If we were driven into the same position we would have to do it
again.
ilr. M.OYl) (iKOROE: I»rd Elgin and gentlemen, I am very
glad Sir Wilfrid Laurier has brought forward a proposal which we
can examine without coming into conflict with any popular mandate
and highly controversial topics like the fiscal question. I am only
sorry that we did not get this in time to enable us to give real con-
Fifteenth
Day.
14th May,
1907.
Mail
Service to
Australia
and New
Zealand via
Canada.
(Dr.
Jameson.)
584 COLONIAL CONFERENCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth sideratiqn to it, and to ennble us also to put forward considered views
Day- before the Conference. The first I saw of this scheme was yester-
1907*^' ^^^' ■'■ ^^i^ I s^""" the resolution last nigjt, and the resolution which
is placed on the paper to-day is different in one or two material
q _■ , artieulars. We have done our best in the very short time which
Australia ^^® been placed at our disposal for considering such a very important
and New business proposition, and we have made some inquiries with regard
Zealand via |q J^
(Mr Llovd Even this discussion has shown what a very difficult problem
George.) it is, and what a many-sided problem it is. You have to consider a
good many things. You have to consider the best route. .Vs to the
desirability of bringing New Zealand and Australia nearer to the
Mother Country, there can be no doubt at all. and we shall, as far
as the Government are concerned, adopt the first three lir.es of Sir
Wilfrid Laurier's resolution by way of establishing our agreement
with the general proposition. But it is a matter that has to be gone
into very carefully, and here I agree with Mr. Deakin, that it is a
matter which ought to be gone into very carefully by experts. It is
a question as to the best route. It is a question as to what it would
cost. Even such a very desirable object as that which has been fore-
shadowed by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, might cost a sum which would be
absolutely prohibitive. I have been told, for instance, that a very
fast service from Vancouver to New Zealand would cost such a large
sum of money, that it would be quite beyond anything that you
could possibly expect either the New Zealand Government, the Ca-
nadian Government or the Imperial Government to face. That is a
matter that should be examined, I think, by experts. Wliat we sug-
gest is that we should at once proceed to examine the proposal and
any other proposals that may be put forward, because there is an
alternative I understand, which will be suggested by Australia with
regard to the Suez Canal route. I think they all ought to be consid-
ered, and considered practically by the same body.
Sir JOSEPH WAKD: What is the alternative?
Mr. DEAKIN : It is not an alternative. We need both the
eastern and western routes, so that there is no alternative from an
Australian point of view.
Sir WILFlilD LA JRIER : I never understood it to be an alter-
native but a matter to be considereu by itself.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: These are the very few alterations we
propose to suggest in Sir Wilfrid Laurier's resolution. We propose
to leave in all about the Canadian service and put that as the fore-
most object, as it is the first scheme placed before the Conference;
and we propose also to recommend that we should inquire into other
schemes which may be later tabled by other Governments.
Mr. DEAKIN: The proposal submitted by New Zealand is for a
fortnightly service. We require a weekly service. One service could
come this way one week and the second by the other route on the
alternate week.
^fr. LLOYD GEORGE: We cannot examine it anart from the
question of the carriage of goods, too. We must take that into
account. It is not only a matter of a fast mail servic?. but also a
question of the cheaper transport of goods and materials from the
Colonies. I consider that to be a very important item, so far as we
are concerned.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
586
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Theu we cannot altogether overlook the fact that the Panama
Canal will make a very material alteration in the whole problem of
oommunication with Australia and New Zealand. The Canal will
probably be open within the next 10 years. When you are framing a
scheme of this kind you cannot overlook the effect which the Panama
Canal must necessarily have on i.ie whole problem. It will probably
revolutionise the whole question of communication with the southern
seas, as the Suez Canal revolutionized the whole problem of com-
munication with the East. That has to be considered.
What we suggest is something to this effect. We adopt the first
three lines of Sir WiMrid Laurier's resolution, and put in the word
" practicable " instead of " possible," but that alteration is merely
verbal, suggested because the word " possible ' occurs later on. This
part of the Resolution would therefore read : " That in the opinion
" of this Conference the interests of the Empire demand that in so
"far as practicable its different portions should be connected by the
" best possible means of mail communication, travel, and transporta-
" tion." To that we agree. We then propose to continue as follows :
" That to this end the various Governments concerned should initiate
" concerted inquiry into the proposal submitted to the Conference for
■• establishing a fast service from Great Britain to Canada, and
" through Canada to Australia and New Zealand, and the financial
" support which would be necessary for the purpose of maintaining
" such a service, and also into any other proposals for similar pur-
" poses which may be siibiftitted by any of the Governments con-
" cerned." That is what I propose to submit to the Conference, and
that will enable us to go into the whole question of time that will be
consumed, and the question not merely of the money to he required,
but also of the contributions which may be expected from each of the
respective contracting States. All these practical questions could be
thoroughly sifted and scrutinised, and I do not see why any time
should be lost, and why experts should not be appointed before the
Premiers leave London now, and why they should not pr(*;etd at once
to examine into the matter and take evidence. That is the proposal
which the Imperial Government put forward.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, ,T am
quite pleased with the general acceptance which this proposal has
received, and still more pleased that so far as New Zealand is con-
cerned the only criticism offered by Sir Joseph Ward is that the pro-
posal is too limited in its scope. The proposal which I submitted
is in these words, " that such service upon the Atlantic Ocean should
"be carried out by means of steamers equal in speed and character
"to the best now in existence." We cannot do anything more with
regard to improving our communication with Canada than to have
a service equal to the best that is now in existence between New York
and England. So far, I think, it requires no expert knowledge or
evidence at all. If you are not prepared to do that, then it is block-
ing the whole system.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Between England and Halifax— that is
a different matter, I agree.
Sir WILFRID LAUR^IER: With regard to the Pacific, I limited
my proposal to an IS-knot service. I have looked into the matter the
last few days, and I find in conversation with some people interested
in this service that at this moment it would be very difficult to have
more than 18 knots. I agree with Sir Joseph Ward if we could have
Fifteenth
Day.
Uth May,
1907.
Mail
Service to
Australia
and New
Zealand viS
Canada.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
586 COLOM.lL COM-EIiEXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth something better it wonJd be well to do so, and if it can be done by
Uth^Ma spending money, I may say on betialf of the Government of Canada.
1907, that we are prepared to go as far as any Governments here interested
— in overcoming the difficulties. If agreeable to Sir Joseph Ward, I
Serv^e to ^^'^ amend my proposition in this way. " That such s ervice upon
Australia " the Atlantic Ocean should be carried on by means ol steamships
and New _ " equal in speed and character to the best now in existence, and upon
Canada ' " *^® Pacific ocean by steamsmps of a speed and character as nearly
(Sir Wilfrid " equal to the Atlantic ships ass circumstances would permit."' Would
Laurier.) jrou accept that. Sir Josepli <
Sir JOSEPH WARD : Quive so.
Sir WILFR.TD LAUKIKR: I would limit it in this way, but if
Mr. Lloyd George would permit me to say so, I do not think it is a
question of experts in this matter, but a question of policy. We want
to have an " all red route," as it has been very happily termed in
Australia over British territory absolutely. If that be the case it
requires no experts at all,
Mr. LLOYD GEORGi-^: xoi cost, surely?
Sir WILFRID LAURii^iv : If you have a company in which you
would have such a man as Lord Strathcona, who will undertake it
for such a sum, you will liave to determine whether you are prepared
to pay the sum or not. No expert would be required there. If you
found a Company on the Atlantic Ocean who would be prepared to
put down their money for such a service provided they get a subsidy.
Five years ago you gave a subsidy to the Cunard Company for the
service between Great Britain and New York. I think it would have
been far better if it had been given to a lin? to Canada, but it is no
use going into that now.
With this amendment that I have made you have two proposals
before you ; one with regard to the Atlantic service, and one with
regard to the Pacific service. With regard to the Atlantic service,
what we want to have is a service eiiual to the best now in existence
in the world ; that requires no expert knowledge, but it is a question
of policy, shall or shall we not have it? If we want to have it we
must pay for it. No company will undertake such a service without
a liberal subsidy. The only question, therefore, is, will you do it, and
be prepared to pay the price which is reasonable for it?
As to the second question, the Pacific service, I limit it according
to the suggestion of Sir Joseph Ward, to say we are prepared to back
a service as nearly equal in speed and character to the Atlantic ships
as circumstances will permit. Here again, there is no necessity for
experts? That is a question for the Conference to decide and I think
you should put the question.
CHAIRMAN: Do you wish it put as it stands?
Sir WILFRID LAHRiER: With the amondment.
Sir WILLIAM LYNK: :May J say that the wording of that reso-
lution might bo misiiuderstood, the words are "speed and character"
as nearly as you can get them to those running across the Atlantic.
It does not want such large boats. At the present moment there is
a turbine boat running iietween Ifelbourne and Laimceston at 21
knots, and a boat 1,000 or 2.000 tons larger than that is not a fourth
the size of the boats running from here to New York, and it would
do that service wiOl and do it much cheaper.
COLOXIAL COXFEREyCE, 1907 .' 587
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir JOSEPH WARD : It says. " speed and character." It does Fifteenth
not say size. Day.
Uth May,
Sir WILLIAM L"iNE: The character means as nearly as possible 1907.
like those between here and New York. ,, ..
Mail
Sir WILFKID LAURIER: How would you change it? Service to
A Ti flfry fl 1 1 ft
Sir WILLlAii lA NE : So that it is clearly understood that they and New
are not ships of the size or anything like the size of those running to Zealand vik
New York now. As long as thev have the speed, and they are suit- ,„. ti- n'
1 1 1 • rt> • (Sir William
able, a ship ol o.tHif) or O.tXJO tons would he quite suineient. Lvne.)
Sir JOSEPH WARD : We have a similar steamer now running
in the Vancouver service in the summer months, owned by New
Zealand, the " Maheno."
'^ Sir WILFRID LAlRia:.R: How would this satisfy you: "Of
a speed as nearly equal to the Atlantic ships " i
Sir WILLIAM LYUE: Yes, leaving out character altogether.
Sir W:iLFRID LAURIER: Yes, I will take out the word
" character." I have no objection.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: There is a steamer of 6,000 tons running
across now, but not at that full speed.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes. One more word about this. I should
be sorry to support the idea of mixing \:his up with what experts may
think is the best course to follow, because I look upon that simply
(although Mr. Llo.vd George does not intend it) as having the effect
of delaying this before we arrive at any conclusion at all for a con-
siderable period. I think it is infinitely better if we make up our
minds to test what is possible here on the suggestion put forth b.v Sir
Wilfrid Laurier^make up our minds what the speed is that we are
prepared to have between England and Canada and between Canada
and Australia and New Zealand, and then call for tenders for it. Let
us fix it as a matter of polic.v and give it out definitely that we are
going to support a service of that kind.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I have said something about experts in
my observations, but that is not my proposal. My proposal is really
described in the words used by Mr. Deakin in his resolution last week.
I used the words " concerted inquiry," and he put "systematic." I
do not think it matters. We really cannot pledge ourselves now as
to the best means of doing this thing. The resolution has not even
been placed on the paper. I do not think it really fair. If it be
regarded as a matter of immense practical moment — and I think it
is, — I think it would have been fair to the Imperial Government, at
any rate, to let us have a cop.v of the resolution. We have had copies
of all the resolutions about fiscal reform, but never a copy of this
one practical proposal, which we could have examined. It ought to
come before the Cabinet. But we saw this resolution for the first
time this morning, and it is reall.v rushing us unfairl.v, I must say,
to ask me to pledge ourselves, not to the general proposition that it is
desirable or that we will look into the matter, but to pledge ourselves
to the actual route, to a 20-knot service here, a 24-knot service there,
and an 18-knot service in another place. Surely that is a thing that
ought to be inquired into. The difference in cost between an 18 and
a 20-knot service I am told is simply prodigious. The figures given
to me were almost prohibitive. Possibl.v, when we look into it, it may
simpl.v have been that a shipowner was trying to frighten us off it;
588
COLONIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
Fifteenth
Day.
14th May,
1907.
Mail
Service to
Australia
and New
Zealand via
Canada.
(Mr. Lloyd
George.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
I cannot say, but the figures were very alarming. To ask us to pledge
ourselves to the very smallest detail (because that is what this means)
without the slightest further talk amongst ourselves as to the best
plan of doing this thing, I really do not think is quite fair to us.
Sir W±L.xK.i.D LAURIER: The concrete resolution has been
placed before you, but the idea has been running in this Conference
all through of such an import service as we have been asking for.
Mr. LLOYD GEOKGE : I agree.
Sir WILFKID LAURIER: The laea has not only been agitated,
but talked about and conferred upon informally for about some three
weeks. The resolution comes in a concrete form to-day, but it has
not come as a new idea or subject at all.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Not the general idea, but the actual
proposal Sir Joseph Ward says you have to commit yourself to an
18-knot service here, and a 2.3-knot service there.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : What I say is this : from the New Zea-
land standpoint, to-day, we are in this position, that the only mail
route which we have for which we give a subsidy to the American
Government is stopped. We want to give the benefit of our subsidy
to a service through Canada. I do not think it is possible for a
service such as we want to be put into effect without the assistance of
the British Government. That is the point of view T take up. Tou
are probably right. from your point of view. It is believed that I am
suggesting too fast a speed for these steamers. We launched a steamer
the other day to do a portion of our work in New Zealand, to steam
20 knots, which does not get a penny of subsidy.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Where is it running to?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Between the two islands.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No doubt there is a big trade.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Yes, it is, though short compared to
ocean voyages. I can give you the ocean passage from Australia
right across to Vancouver, to which that argument will not apply.
We have a steamer belonging to that service that does the journey
across at 19 knots, the " Maheno."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Does she run regularly?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: All the summer months, and in winter
between Australia and New Zealand. She runs all the time, fre-
quently at 18 knots, and she has averaged over 18 between Australia
and New Zealand more than once. That steamer, without any dif-
ficulty, could, if required, average over 17 knots.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Here is a scheme which will involve
hundreds of thousands of pounds, one way and another. There is a
difference between one estimate and another of, perhaps, two or three
hundred thousand pounds n year. As far as I can see, you have no
estimate of the cost, and we are pledging ourselves to the very route
and the very method witlio\it even having nn estimate of what the
scheme may cost. I do not think it is a business-like proposition to
ask us to commit ourselves to all the details at the present mo-
ment without concerted e.xamination.
Sir .TOREPTT WARD: We do not propose to commit oiirselves to
details either. What we want as a matter of policy is to try to bring
our countries closer to the Mother Country.
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 1901 589
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
CHAIRMAN : That is what is done in this resolution. Fifteentli
Day.
Sir ROBERT BOND : I would like to ask Sir Wilfrid Laurier nth May.
if he is wedded to any particular scheme or any particular proposal. ^^**"-
I ask tliat question because the Colony that I represent has already jigji
entered into a contract with reputable people in this City for the Service to
purpose of carrying out a short line scheme to connect Great Britain ^'^j*^
with the American Continent by the shortest and fastest route. We Zealand via
have gone so far as to offer a considerable subsidy in cash as well as Canada,
in lands and minerals, and T should not like to have that proposal '^'ir'^^j^'''*
excluded from the consideration of His Majesty's Goverumer.t ly any ^^ ■'
resolution to be proposed here. 1 understand that the contractors
have already approached His Majesty's Government in reference to
that matter. If they have not done so, I know they intend doing so,
and I now ask that that proposal may receive duo consideration, and
that the Resolution be so worded as to adrrlt of such.
Sir WII.FRID LAURIER : I have not defined it ; it may be this
or that. We want a good service between England and Canada. As
I know, there is a project via Newfoundland, but J do not object to
that being considered.
CHAIRMAN: I hope the Conference understands that the reso-
lution read by Mr. Lloyd George does not f.ik.? up the expert '■iew
which was objected to. It is an inquiry simply which is desired by
concerted action between all the Governments.
Sir WILLIA:\r LYNE : Really to find out how much money
would be required.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : How much it would cost and how much
each Colony would contribute.
CHAIRMAN: I had better read the two resolutions.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I think it is a great pity we should not
arrive at some unanimous decision to enable us to go on with the
matter. The two conflicting resolutions will leave the thing quite
in the air.
CHAIRMAN: Sir Wilfrid Laurier's resolution, as he proposed
it, is : " That in the opinion of this Conference the interests of the
" Empire demand that in so far as practicable its different portions
" should be connected by the best possible means of mail communi-
" cation, travel, and transportation."
Mr. DEAKIN: Why not put that part now?
CHAIRMAN: I will read the whole thing.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I understand the first is accepted.
CHAIRMAN : " That to this end steps should be immediately
" taken to establish a fast service from Great Britain to Canada and
" through Canada to Australia and Ns-v Zeal.md and also to China
" and Japan ; that such service upon the Atlantic Ocean should be
" carried on by means of steamships equal in speed and character to
" the best now in existence, and upon the Pacific Ocean by steamships
" of a speed as nearly equal to the Atlantic service as circumstances
"will permit; that for the purpose of carrying the above project
" into effect such financial support as may be necessary should be
"contributed by Great Britain. Canada, Austailia. and Now Zealand
"inequitable proportions." His Majest/s Government suggests that
"it should run this way: "That in the opinion of this Conference
590 COLOSIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
' 7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteeutli '■ the interests of the Empire demand that in so far as practicable its
Uth^av ' different portions should be connected by the best possible means
1907. ' "'of mail communication, travel, and transportation; that to this
" end the various Governments concerned should initiate concerted
Service to ' inquiry into the proposals submitted to the Conference for estab-
Australia " lishing a fast service from Great Britain to Canada, and through
7^1 H*^" ■ "Canada to Australia and Xew Zealand, and the financial support
Canada. " «'hich will be necessary for the purpose of maintaining such a
(Chairman.) " service, and also into any other proposals for similar purposes which
" may be submitted by any of the Governments concerned." That
covers Sir Robert Bond's position, I think.
Sir EGBERT BOND: ,T think that is preferable to the resolution
proposed by Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That will cover the route to Australia
through the Suez Canal.
Sir WILLIAM LYXE: Australia has verv- little to do with Japan
and China.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I know, but that is not part of our pro-
posal.
CHAIRMAN: Do you see your way to accept that. Sir Wilfrid?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I am sorry that we cannot agree. I
hope we may agree upon something. Perhaps we can after all; it
only wants making an effort.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I hope it may be possible.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I must ask you at once to limit the
inquiry. An inquiry means simply delay.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Then we can go on to propose the method
of inquiry.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Limit the inquiry as to the time for
reporting upon it.
Mr. DEAKIN: Let us do all we can to agree. Perhaps I might
occupy a moment with a not irrelevant suggestion which has been
made, and as far as I know, not considered, certainly on our side.
Sir Joseph Ward has put forward so clearly that it is not necessary
to repeat it, the case that can be made for a reduction of the dues
in the Suez Canal. It is pointed out to me, on the best information,
that those dues are levied on the capacity of the ship — the cargo
capacity, whether loaded or not, and the passenger accommodation,
whether occupied or not. T understand that the levy on the cargo
capacity stands by itself; it measures the capacity of the vessel at
its customary standard ; but there seems to be in force in the conten-
tion that it would be a fair thing to suggest that so far as passenger
acfommodation is concerned, the dues should be levied only on the
amount of that aoconunodation actually occupied. Trade passing
through the Siiez Canal varies immensely at different seasons of the
year, and the vessels which use the canal regularly require to provide
a maximum carrying capacity for passengers. That, as I understand,
does not involve a serious addition to the bulk of the vessel, but a
larger superstructure and upon tliis they have to pay for some months
of the .vrar when the greater part of it is \inoccupied. When the
question of the rates in the Suez Canal comes up for consideration
and relief is being sought, if it cannot be given to the whole extent
COLOMAL cnyFEREXCE, 1907 591
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
and if we are compelled to fall back upon other minor reductions I'iftceutb
which may be made, surely it is a reasonable thing to propose that, Day.
so far as passenger accommodation is concerned, the dues should be jg^- "^ '
paid only on that portion which is actually occupied. Then what-
ever the steamer received for passenger fares, the Canal would receive ^^'1
its proportionate dues. This would be a considerable relief in some Australia
seasons of the year when the passenger traffic is very small. This and New
implies no retention of the cargo dues, but is siiggested as the pas- 'Zealand via
senger accommodation stands on a different footing. This is one ,,.
practical way in which a good deal of relief coukl be given to the Deakiii.)
vessels using the Canal. They include vessels whose cargo capacity
is seldom used to the full, but on that they have to pay, consequently-
their charges are high. I would be glad if Mr. Lloyd George would
be good enough to note that suggestion for consideration. Probably
it has reached him before.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Unfortunately, wc have no real control,
I forget what our holding is — it is something like four-tenths of the
whole, but the control is practically in the hands of the shareholders,
and His Majesty's Government has no proportionate voice in framing
the schedule of rates. That has been our difficulty; in fact, the only
thing we could do would bo to refund a part of the rates. That would
have to be by a contribution from the various Governments affected.
Sir EDTVARL) GREY: We have had complaints from our own
shipowners of the way the dues are levied.
Mr. DEAKIX: I long since wrote despatches asking for a reduc-
tion of all the Suez dues, but certainly a preference for British ships
would be better secured by remitting the dues on all ships. We could
pay them ourselves for our own vessels. For the first ))roposal you
would get support from other nations, because, although their ship-
ping is smaller than ours, they must pay the dues at the same rate.
Sir WILFRID LAIIRIER : Would this be acceptable to Mr.
Lloyd George? J dislike the word "inquiry." "That in the opinion
" of this Conference the interests of the Empire demand, that in so
" far as practicable its different portions should be connected by the
" best possible means of mail communication, travel, and transporta-
" tion ; that to this end it is advisable that Great Britain should be
" connected with Canada and through Canada with Australia and
"New Zealand by the best service available under existing circum-
" stances; that for the purpose of carrying the above project into
" effect such financial support as may be necessary should be contri-
" buted by Great Britain. Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in
" equitable proportions."
Mr. LL0"5T) GEORGE : Wliat is the difference between that and
the first resolution ?
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER: That.it does not call for inquiry
"that to this end the various Governments concerned shoiild initiate
" concerted inquiry into the proposals submitted." The first we
limit. The second is that this communication should be through
Canada, and from Canada with Australia by the best available means
without specifying anything.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : That is committing us to this route as
the best route without inquiry.
592 COLOyiAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII.. A. 1908
Fifteenth Sir WILFErD LAURIER : If you want inquiry whether it is
,,.lP*?; the best route or not this is exactly the object.
14tli Mav,
1907. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is committing us to the trans-
j, ■] continental route as the only route we can consider. We are not
Service to allowed to consider any other route.
tnl*New Sir WILLIAM LYNE : What other route could you consider if
Zealand via it is to be an " all red route " ?
Canada. WILFRID LAl^RIER : If you think there is another avail-
George.) able route I do not think 1 or anybody else is prepared to agree with
that. We say that is the route.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It is committing us to the scheme before
we have had time to consider it.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We say ij; is a matter of policy to have a
route through Canada. It is the only British country we can go
through, and that is the country we want to get this service through
if we can. As a matter of policy we want a British route; that is
the route we wish to support, and if possible to obtain your support
too.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER : I object to Mr. Lloyd George's pro-
posal, because he wants to examine whether or not we should adopt
another route or this route. We say there is no inquiry required.
This is a question of policy we put before you to have an all British
route, and this is the only British route possible. There is no other.
CHAIRMAX: It seems to me your resolution would commit us
to your proposals, even if the conditions were prohibitive.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Not at all.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It is absolutely regardless of cost.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : No, put in a moditieation if the cost
is too heavy. I do not object to that. This is the route. I use the
words " available under existing circumstances.'*
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If we are to go into this question, we
shall have to take the advice of people who will tell us what the thing
will cost, and we must have the figures before us.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Very well, " by the best service av.iil-
able within reasonable cost."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: "Subject to the cost being approved h^
the respective Governments."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, that is all we want really. We
want to be allowed to examine into the cost of the thing.
Sir JOSEPH WARD : My idea is you will never ascertain tho
cost until you make up your mind what you want first, and thou
invite offers for it. and examine the offers by your experts.
Sir WILLTA^r LYNE: That resolution binds us to the route
via New Zealand. The present route is to Brisbane. I do not know
what my Prime Minister thinks.
Mr. DEAKIN: I ck> not think it does bind us.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I think it does. If we pass a resolution
and agree to it that it shall be one route and one roilte only, and that
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1007 593
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
route via New Zealand, it might place Australia in an awkward Fifteenth
P°si''°"- Uth^^May,
Sir WILFR,TD LAURIER: I will put it this way: "That, to 1907.
" this end, it is advisable that Great Britain should be connected with "jivT
" Canada, and through Canada with Australia and New Zealand by Service to
" the best service available within reasonable cost." Au'-tralia
and Aew
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes. Zealand via
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I say "for the purpose of carrying (sliwaUam
" the above project into effect such financial support a? may bo Lyue.)
"necessary should be contributed by Great Britain, Canada, Au<trali;i.
" and New Zealand, in equitable proportions."
Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Then that does not fix the route.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It fi.xes the route.
Mr. DEAKIN: Not on our side. That is what Sir William is
talking about.
CHAIRMAN: I will read the resolution again: "That in the
" opinion of this Conference the interests of the Empire demand
" that, in so far as practicable, its different portions should be con-
"nected by the best possible means of mail communication, travel.
" and transportation, and that to this end it is advisable that Great
" Britain should be connected with Canada, and through Canada
" with Australia and New Zealand by the best service available within
" reasonable cost ; that for the purpose of carrying the above project
" into effect such financial support as may be necessary should be
" contributed by Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand
" in equitable proportions."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We accept that.
CHAIR^IAN: Is that accepted by the Conference?
'ihe resolution u-as agreed to. Resolution
XX.
NEWFOUNDLAND FISHERY. Newfound-
land
CHAIRMAN: Yesterday I received a notice from Sir Robert Fishery.
Bond that he wished to bring a subject before the Conference con-
cerning the Newfoundland Fisheries, and Sir Edward Grey has
attended for that purpose.
Sir ROBERT BOND : Lord Elgin and gentlemen : In proposing
this question for the consideration of this Conference, I do not in-
tend to make more than a passing reference to the conditions that
appertained in Newfoundland under the modus vivendi entered into
between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United
States of America in October 1906. All the facts are well known to
His Majesty's Government and to the Colonial Members of this Con-
ference, for I have taken occasion to place in the hands of the latter
a concise history of the same. Any comments upon what transpired
under that arrangement, or upon its terms, or the manner of its
accomplishment, might be regarded as vexatious. It will, therefore,
only be necessary for me to briefly outline the Treaty relations that
have existed and that still exist between His Majesty's Government
and that of the United States of America ; the obligations that are
imposed upon American subjects under the existing Treaty and the
58—38
594 COLONIAL COypEREXCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII , A. 1908
Fifteenth coutentions of the Government of the United States of America now
uth*^M l^efore His Majesty's Government, and which, I submit, are sufficiently
1907. ' grave to warrant the most serious consideration of this Conference,
inasmuch as they challenge the binding effect of Colonial laws upon
land" foreign subjects when coming within the jurisdiction of a Colonial
Fishery. Government. The question affects the Colony that I represent princi-
(Sir Robert pally and most vitally, but it also affects every Colony represented
Bond.) in this Conference.
I have had the privilege of discussing the question with Sir
Edward Grey, of the Foreign Office, with your Lordship, and Mr.
Winston Churchill, and have stated, as clearly as I know how to do
so, what .1 believe to be the rights of those I represent. That state-
ment I desire to repeat here and now, for if it is held by this Con-
ference to be unreasonable or unduly exacting, I shall be prepared to
modify it to meet what may be considered reasonable and right.
Now, then, with regard to the Treaty relations between His
Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States of
America.
Before the American Revolution the inhabitants of all the British
Colonies in North America possessed, as a common right, the right of
fishing on all the coasts of what was then British North America,
and these rights were, in the broadest sense, prescriptive and accus-
tomed rights of property. At the end of the Kevolution, and by the
Treaty of Peace signed in 188.3, the boundaries between the posses-
■ sions of the two Powers, that is to say, the United States and Great
Britain were adjusted by Article m. of that Treaty, which reads
as follows: —
"Agreed, that the people of the United States shall continue to
enjoy unmolested the right to take fish of every kind on the
Grand Bank, and on all the other banks of Newfoundland;
also in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and at all other places in
the sea, where the inhabitants of both countries used at any
time heretofore to fish, and also that the inhabitants of the
United States shall have liberty to take fish of every kind on
such part of the coast of Newfoundland as British fishermen
shall use (but not to dry or cure the same on that island), and
also on the coasts, bays, and creeks of all other of His Bri-
tannic Majesty's Dominions in America."
This was a grant or recognition of a right agreed \ipon for a con-
sideration viz., the adjustment of the boundaries and other engage-
ments into which the United States by that Treaty entered.
For our purpose, it is unnecessary to deal with the other articles
of that Treaty.
From 1783, until the war between Great Britain and the United
States in 1812, citizens of the United States continued to enjoy tho
ancient rights belonging to them as subjects of Great Britain before
the Revolution, and reserved to them as citizens of the United State.i
to the extent outlined in the article of the Treaty of 1T8.S, to which T
have referred. Between those dates, other subjects of difference and
negotiation, apart from the fisheries, arose between the two nations,
which were disposed of by the Treaties of 1794 and 1802, but the
fishery provisions of ITS.*? continued down to the period of (lie out-
break of war in 1812.
.\t the close of that war a Treaty of Peace was concluded on the
24th of December, 1814» which provided : —
COLOMAL COSFEREXCE, 1907 S9S
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
(1) For the restoration to each party of all countries, territories, Fifteenth
&c., taken by either party during the war, without delay, save i.^iP^ff
some questions of islands in the Bay of Passamaquoddy ; 1907.
(2) For disposition of prizes and prisoners of war; and .
(3) For questions of boundary and dominion regarding certain ^hind°
islands and for the settlement of the north-eastern boundary, Fishery.
and also for the north-western boundary, but it made no (Sir Robert
reference whatever to any question touching the fisheries Bond.)
referred to in the Treaty of 1783.
On the 3rd of July 1815, Great Britain entered into a Commercial
Treaty with the United States, which provided for reciprocal liberty
of commerce between all the territories of Great Britain in Europe
and the territories of the United States but made no stipulation as
regards commercial intercourse between British Dominions in North
America and the United States.
After the conclusion of thn Treaty following the war of 1812,
viz., that of the 24th of December 1814, there being then no treaty
obligations or reciprocal laws in force between, or in either of the
countries respecting commercial intercourse, the British Government
contended that the tishing rights recognised and secured to the citi-
zens of the United States by the Treaty of 1783 had become abrogated
in consequence of the war of 1812, on the principle of war annulling
all unexecuted engagements between two belligerents. The fishing
rights conveyed to the United States of America by the Treaty of
1783 having been annulled by the war of 1812. the citizens of the
United States no longer had the right to fish in any of the North
American waters. This exclusion continued until the conclusion of
the Treaty of the 20th October. 1818. which Treaty remains in force
to-day, and embodies the whole of the fishing privileges to which
United States citizens are entitled in the waters that wash the coasts
of Newfoundland and the Dominion of Canada.
Article T. of that Treaty contains a recital of the fishing privi-
leges in British North American waters conveyed to the United
States by the Imperial Government. That article reads as follows: —
" Whereas differences have arisen respecting the liberty
claimed by the United States, for the inhabitants there-
of, to take, dry, and cure fish on certain coasts, bays,
harbours, and creeks of His Britannic Majesty's Dom-
inions in America, it is agreed between the high con-
tracting parties that the inhabitants of the said United
States shall have forever, in common with subjects of
His Britannic Majesty, the liberty to take fish of every
kind on that part of the southern coast of Newfound-
land, which extends from Cape Ray to the Eameau Is-
lands; on the western and northern coast of Newfound-
land from the said Cape Ray to the Quirpon Islands,
on the shores of the Magdalen Islands, and also on the
coasts, bays, harbours, and creeks from Mount Joly,
on the southern coast of Labrador, to and through the
Straits of Belle Isle, and thence northwardly indefinitely
along the coast without prejudice, however, to any of .
the exclusive rights of the Hudson Bay Company.
And that the American fishermen shall also have liberty
for ever to dry and cure fish in any part of the un-
settled bays, harbours, and creeks of the southern part'
58— 38i
596 COLOyiAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth of the coast of Newfoundland, above described, and of
14th Mar *^® coast of Labrador; but so soon as the same, or any
1907. " ' portion thereof shall be settled, it shall not be lawful
-— — for the said fisherman to dry and cure fish at such por-
^larS'" " ^^''^ ^° settled without previous agreement for such
Fishery. purpose with the inhabitants, proprietors, or possessors
(Sir Eobert of the ground. And the United States hereby renounces
' for ever any liberty heretofore enjoyed or claimed by
the inhabitants thereof to take, dry, or cure fish on
or within three marine miles of any of the coasts,
bays, creeks, or harbours of his Britannic Majesty's
Dominions in America not included within the above-
mentioned limits:
" Provided, however, that the American fishermen shall be
admitted to enter such bays or harbours for the purpose
of shelter, and of obtaining water, and for no other pur-
pose whatever. But they shall be under such restric-
tions as may be necessary to prevent their taking,
drying, or curing fish therein, or in any other manner
whatever abusing the privileges hereby reserved to
them. "
The Treaty limited to a territorial extent the fishing rights of the
people of the United States, which they had enjoyed as British sub-
jects, and which had been recognised and continued under the Treaty
of Peace of 1783, and down to the year 1812.
It provided for the continuance of the ancient rights of fishing
on certain parts of the coast of the Colony of Newfoundland and of
His Britannic Majesty's other Dominions in America. It also pro-
vided for a renunciation by the United States of pre-existing rights
to take fish within 3 marine miles of any of the coasts, bays, creeks,
or harbours of His Britannic Majesty's Dominions in British North
America, not included within the limits set forth in the article which
I have read, that renunciation being subject, liowever. to the proviso
that " American fishermen shall be admitted to enter such bays or
" harbours for the purpose of shelter, and of repairing damages
" therein, of purchasing wood, and of obtaining water, and for no
" other purpose whatever. But they shall be under such restriction
"as may be necessary to prevent their taking, drying, or curing fish
" therein or in any other manner whatever abusing the privileges
"hereby reserved to them."
The Conference will not fail to observe that this Treaty contained
no provision .ts respects the exercise of what may be termed " com-
mercial rights " by American fishing or other vessels in the waters
of the Colony of Newfoundland or of His Majesty's other Domin-
ions in America.
It was not until the year 1830 that a reciprocal arrangement was
entered into between the Government of Great Britain and that of
the United States for what might be properly termed " comniercial "
relations, the Act of Congress of May 29th, 1830, providing for the
opening of all American ports to certain vessels on a mutual
opening of British Colonial ports to American vessels, and a Pro-
clamation dated the 5th of October 1830. giving effect to it on the
part of Great Britain.
This arrangement would appear to have led to nets of aggression
on the part of American subjects, and to a violation of the Treaty
COLONIAL COyPERENGE, 1907 697
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58 •
obligations of 1818, for we find that in the 1836 the Government of Fifteenth
. Newfoundland passed a Bill, entitled, " An Act to prevent the en- 14(1?'' vf
" croachment of aliens on the fisheries of this Colony, and for the 1907.
" further protection of the said fisheries" ; that, in the same year,
the Province of Nova Scotia passed laws in respect to the seizure of ^i^nd"
American fishing vessels for trading and fishing within the 3-mile Fishery,
limit; and that, in the year 1838, the said Province of Nova Scotia (Sir Robert
complained by address to the Queen of such aggressions, and asked Bond.)
for naval force to prevent them. This force was supplied by the
British Government and seizures of American fishing vessels became
common.
Down through the years until 1854 the same conditions applied,
when on the 5th of June, 1854, a comprehensive reciprocal trade treaty
was entered into between His Majesty's Government and that of the
United States, under which Americans were granted the right to
fish within the limits prescribed by the Treaty of 1818, under cer-
tain restrictions. That Treaty terminated in the winter of 1864, by
a vote of the Congress of the United States.
Between 1864 and 1871 the policy of issuing licenses to American
fishermen to fish in the waters from which they were excluded for
fishing purposes by the Treaty of 1818, was adopted by the Canadian
Government, and, during the year 1866, 354 licenses were issued by
that Government at the rate of 50 cents per ton. The next year the
license fee was increased to $1 per ton, and the number of licenses
issued amounted to 281. In 1868 and 1869 the license fee was doubled
to $2 per ton, and in the years 1868 and 1869, 56 and 25 licenses
respectively were taken out. The Canadian Government then
changed its policy and enacted exclusive laws against American
fishermen forcing them to keep within the 3-mile limit.
In the year 1871, another reciprocal trade Treaty was entered
into between His Majesty's Government, and that of the United
States, which provided that, for a period of 10 years, fishermen of
the United States should have, in addition to their right under the
Treaty of 1818, the privilege of inshore fishing in the waters of
British North America under certain limitations. In return for
that privilege, it was provided that the fishery products of
Newfoundland and of the neighbouring Dominion were to have free
entry into the markets of the United States. On the 1st of July, 1885,
that Treaty was terminated by the Congress of the United States,
and the fishing rights of United States' citizens reverted back to those
outlined in the Treaty of 1818.
One month later, namely, on the 1st of August, 1886, a telegram
was received by the Officer Administering the Government of the
Colony of Newfoundland from the Secretary of State for the Colon-
ies, intimating that His Majesty's Government deemed it " desirable
" that steps should be taken by the Government of the Colony to de-
• cide definitely on the exact nature of the proposals to be made
" to the Government of the United States in anticipation of the ne-
" gotiations which were contemplated in view of the termination of
" the temporary arrangements that were made by His Majesty's Min-
" ister at Washington with the United States Government arising out
" of the termination of the fisheries articles of the Treaty of Wash-
" ington of 1871 on the 30th June, 1885. " The answer which was
given by the Government of Newfoundland to this representation
was the introduction of the Bait Act in the year 1886. The reasons
that prompted the adoption of that measure were set out by the then
598 COLONIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
' 7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth Governor of the Colony in a despatch to the Colonial Office, bearing
j9^; date 25th day of May, 1886, wherein he stated that:—
— — " The people of Newfoundland, like those of Canada, de-
lj,^(j " sire to use the right to withhold a supply of bait as a
Fishery. means of inducing the American Goverimient to re-
(Sir Robert move the import duties on British fish. "
And again, in another despatch from Sir G. William Des Vceux to
Colonial Office, bearing date 4th of January, 1887, in support of the
Bait Act, which was held in abeyance by His Majesty's Government
for 12 months, he stated that : —
" American fishermen are protected in the markets of the
United States, which take all their produce by a duty
of 56 cents per quintal, which is almost prohibitive to
the results of British industry," and
" Though the measure, if allowed, would, to a large extent,
place the fisheries in this neighborhood within the con-
trol of the people of this Colony, they have no desire
to monopolise them, and I feel satisfied that they would
willingly modify the provisions of the measure in favour
of such Governments as would grant a reciprocity
. . . I have good reason for believing that as regards
the United States, the right of obtaining bait would be
restored on the opening of the American markets to
Newfoundland fish .... in a word, the principle that
the colonists desire to maintain is ' live and let live '
and they merely object to that of let other live by
killing us."
Following upon this despatch from Sir George des Vceux to the
Secretary of State for the Colonies, and under date the 16th June
1887, a letter was received by the representative of the Newfoundland
Government, then in London, from the Office of Legation of the
United States, intimating that: —
" Should the Government of Newfoundland see fit to give
notice that American fishermen be admitted to the
ports of that province for the purpose of obtaining sup-
plies, the proposal will be cordially accepted and acted
upon by the Government of the United States. In that
event there would be no objection on the part of the
United States Goverimient to entertain suggestions for
an independent agreement in respect to the fisheries
of Newfoimdland. and if made by the authorised agents
of the Innxrial Government."
The invitation was most cordially received by the Government of
Newfoundland. Negotiations were opened by His Majesty's Gov-
ernment with the Government of the United States of America, and
on the 15th of February, 188S, what is known as the Chamberlain-
Bayard Treaty was signed at Washington. This Treaty provided for
free fishing in exchange for the free admission of fish products, the
result of British catch, into the markets of the United States of
America. This Treaty was approved and signed by the United States
Government, but was rejected by the United States Senate, and the
fishery privileges of the United States consequentl.v reverted to those
embodied in the Treaty of 1S18.
In the same year, 1888, the Bait Act referred to in the dispatch
COLONIAL COXFEREKGE, 1907 599
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
of Sir G. \V. Des Voeux, extracts from which I have quoted, was Fifteenth
brought into force with the assent of the Crown, ami under the pro- ,,1^^?;
visions of the same, foreign fishing vessels were excluded from the jgjy
iusliore bnit fisheries, except under license, and notices were issued
to the United States Government from the Department of the Colon- Newfound-
ial Secretary of the Colony calling attention to the provisions of the Fishery,
said Act. (Sir Robert
By virtue of the authority vested thereunder in the Governor- Bond.)
in-Council, a tax of $1.50 per net ton was imposed upon all Ameri-
can fishing vessels visiting the coast in quest of bait fishes.
Our relations with the States continued in this form until the
year ISfKt. when by a despatch bearing date 2Sth February, 1900, from
Sir Terence O'Brien, Governor of the Colony, to the Secretary of
State for the Colonies, the quf^stiou of a direct and independent trade
arrangement between Newfoundland and the United States of Ame-
rica was revived. This negotiation resulted in my being authorised
to proceed to Washington to assist in bringing about such an ar-
rangement. The result of my visit to Washington was what is known
as the Bond-Blaine Convention of 1890. which was virtually upon
the same lines as the Chamberlain-Bayard Treaty of 1888. This
Convention was approved by the United States Government, but was
not ratified by His Majesty's Government.
In view of the fact that the United States Government had sig-
nified its willingness to exchange a free market with us for bait
privileges, and that our Convention was not held in abeyance by
reason of any action or want of action on its part, the Government
of Newfoundland extended to United States fishermen, for a period
of 12 years, all the privileges that it was contemplated should be
granted \mder the Convention of 1890.
Mr. DEAKIN: You say the Convention was approved by the
United States Government, but did that include the United States
Legislature?
Sir ROBERT BOND: No; it did not come before the United
States Legislature. It was signed by Mr. Blaine on behalf of his
Government. It was then sent over to this country for His ilajes-
t^s approval, and a protest was entered against its ratification by
the Dominion Government, and His Majesty's Government held it in
abeyance for 12 years.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : .Is it not a fact that the Treaty was
submitted by the American Government to the Senate, and they
refused to ratify it.
Sir ROBERT BOND: No, the 1890 Treaty never went before
the Senate at all, but the 1902 Treaty did. I am coming to that now.
During 12 years from 1890 to 1902, the Government of Newfound-
land persistently urged His Majesty's Government to fidfil its un-
dertaking as regards the United States Convention, but without avail.
In 1902 I was in this country in connection with His Majesty's
Coronation and the Conference of Colonial Premiers, and I availed
m.vself of the opportunity of pressing upon the then Secretary of
State for the Colonies — Mr. Chamberlain — the inifairness of the
treatment that had been meted out to us as a Colony during the 12
years previous in relation to our proposed trade arrangement with
the United States of America and begged the privilege of being
again permitted to proceed to Washington to re-open negotiations
600 COLONIAL COyPERENOE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth with the United States Government for an arrangement upon the
Utli^'^May, ■'™®^ °^ ^^^ Convention of 1890. My request was acceded to, and I
19U7. ' was furnished with the necessary authority to proceed to Washing-
— : — ton. The resuh of my visit was what is known as the Hay-Bond
w" T'^^'y of 1^02. _ This Convention was ratified by the Secretary of
Fishery. State of the United States on behalf of his Government, and by the
(Sir Robert late Sir Michael Herbert on behalf of His Majesty's Government. Jt
Bond.) provided, as did the former Convention, for the free admission of
fishery products of Newfoundland into United States markets in
exchange for baiting privileges in the Colony. That Convention was
held in abeyance for some considerable time by the Foreign Relations
Committee of the United States of America, but in the year 1904 it
was reported by that Committee to the United States Senate, where
it was virtually amended out of existence at the instance of the
fishery interests of Gloucester (Massachusetts).
Between 1902 and 1904 the privileges that had been freely ex-
tended to the United States during the 12 years previous were con-
tinued, but after the action of the United States Senate became
known to my Government, in the interests of the trade and com-
merce of the Colony, it was determined that the policy of the Govern-
ment of 1886 — which had been so forcibly advocated b.v the theii
Governor, Sir G. W. Des Voeux — should be enforced against Ameri-
can fishermen.
When the Legislature met on the 30th of March. 1905, Ilis Excel-
lency the Governor, in the speech from the throne, said : " I would
" observe that the serious loss occasioned the fishermen of this Colony
" last season by the difficulty of obtaining a full supply of bait fishes
" rendered it very imperative for my Ministers to consider whether
" the very valuable bait privileges conceded to the fishermen of the
"United States by the Government of this Colony in expectation of
'■ ratification of the Convention could be continued without detri-
" ment to our fishery interest. After careful inquir.v and considera-
" tion, it was decided that, under existing circumstances, local in-
" terests would be best conserved by withholding those privileges."
Ib order to more effectively carry out the provisions of the Bait
Act, which liad been in force for nearly 20 years against French
fishermen, but which, for reasons I have set forth, were not enforced
in their entirety against American citizens, the Government intro-
duced the Foreign Fishing Vessels Act of 1905, whereb.v it was pro-
vided, amongst other things, that it shall be unlawful for the master
of any foreign vessel " to engage any person to fornt part of the crew
" of said vessel in any port or on an.v part of the coasts of this island."
The method adopted b.v .American fishermen of conducting the
herring fishery on the west coast of the Colony had ever been by
purchase or barter. The Bait Act, as it stood. 'Enabled us to prevent
a continuation of that practice, but the Government appreciated that
the Americans would attempt to overcome the difiicult.v occasioned
b.v the enforcement of the Bait Act b.v engaging local fishermen to
form part of their crews, and to catch the fish they required. It was
for the p\irpose. then, of preventing this evasion of the spirit and
intention of the Bait .\ct of 1'>.'(7. that the clause that T referred tn
was inserted in the .\ct of 190.'i.
.\t the close of the Session of the Newfoundland T/egislnture of
190.^. this Foreign Fishing Vessels .\ct was assented to and became
llii^ law of the Jand.
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901 601
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
III October of that year the autumn herring fishery on the west Fifteenth
coast commenced, when it was found that American fishermen were uti ji„y
iletermined to ignore the provisions of the Bait Act as well as the 1907.
Foreign Fisliing Vessels Act of 1905. The position was further _
aggravated by their refusing to comply with our Customs and " ^land"
Revenue Laws and to enter and clear and pay light dues as they h;id Fishery,
ever done heretofore. (Sir Robert
Out ot deference to the wishes of His Majesty's Government my Bond.)
Government abstained from enforcing local statutes against American
citizens on the Treaty coast, during the autumn fishery of 1905,
thereby occasioning themselves very considerable embarrassment.
They were led to adopt this course believing that during the period
that would elapse before the next fishing season came round a special
effort would be made by His Majesty's Government to arrive at a
satisfactory solution of the difficulties that had arisen by reason of
the action of the United States fishermen, and failing such solution
that ITis Majesty's Government would strictly confine the United
States to the privileges accorded its inhabitants by the Treaty of
1818.
In the session of 1906, I introduced a Bill to amend the Foreign
Fishing Vessels Act of 1905, by declaring that the first part of sec-
tion 1 and the whole of section 3 thereof do not apply to foreign
fishing vessels resorting to Newfoundland waters in the exercise of
Treaty rights. This was done at the request of His Majesty's Gov-
ernment in order to meet objections that had been raised to the
measure by the Government of the United States.
This Bill also contained the provisions: — (1) that it should be
imlawful for a resident of the Colony to leave it for the purpose of
engaging in foreign fishing vessels intending to fish in the waters of
the Colony; and f2) that it should be unlawful for the master,
owner, or agent of any foreign fishing vessel to engage British sub-
jects to fish for them within the territorial waters of the Colony.
These provisions were rendered necessary because while the Bait Act
of 1887 declared that no man should take bait fi.shes within the
jurisdiction of the Colony without a license, and the Foreign Fishing
Vessels Act of 1905 declared that any master who attempted to
engage any person to form part of the crew of any foreign fishing
vessel in any port or in any part of the coast of this island should
have his vessel confiscated, in the autumn fishery of 1905 the Ameri-
cans deliberately proceeded to aid and abet our fishermen in violating
the Bait Act by engaging them through agents in Bay of Islands as
part of their crew, taking them outside the 3-mile limit to formally
ship and enter their service, and returning with them inside our
jurisdiction to fish.
It will be observer that whereas the Foreign Fishing Vessels Act
of 1905 penalised the master of any foreign fishing vessel for engag-
ing any person to form part of the crew of said vessel within the
jurisdiction of the Colony, the amending Act of 1906 penalised the
master, o^\nier, or agent of such vessel who should engage British
subjects, either outside or inside our jurisdiction, and utilize them
within our jurisdiction to fish for them.
The machinery for a complete control over our own people so as
to prevent them from aiding the Americans in catching such fishes
was thus provided by the Legislature, but this machinery was rendered
inoprrntive by the modiia vivendi entered into between His Majesty's
602 COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth Government and the Government of the United States of America in
14th ^Mav October 1906, the terms of which may be summarised as follows,
1907. " ' viz : —
Newfouuil- ^' Permission to the Americans to use purse seines during the
land. ensuing season, the use of which instruments of capture the
Fishery. j^^ ^f ^jjg Colony prohibited and penalised;
^^'r ?'?*'^' 2. Permission to the Americans to ship Newfoundland fishermen
outside the 3-mile limit, which, by the law of the Colony, was
prohibited and penalised;
3. The undertaking on the part of His Majesty's Ministers not
to bring into force the Foreign Fishing Vessels Act of 1906.
an Act regarded by the Legislature of the Colony as essential
in order to control the conduct of British fishermen and
effectively enforce the provisions of the Bait Act of 1887;
4. An undertaking on the part of His Majesty's ^Ministers to limit
the operation of a law of the Colony (the Foreign Fishing
Vessels Act, 1905) by the non-enforcement of the first part of
section and the whole of section -t.
With the validity of the modus vivendi of 1906, I do not pro-
pose to deal. Suffice it to say that the Supreme Court of Newfound-
land has decided that it could not override local statutes as intended.
With the humiliating circumstances that attended its enforcement I
shall not trouble this Conference. I shall content myself by stating
that the concessions contained in the modus vivendi were placed
there to satisfy the demands of the Government of the United States
of America.
The contentions of the American Government were as follows: —
1. That there should be no interference on any grounds by officers
of the Newfoundland Government with American fishermen.
2. That the Convention of 1818 justifies no interference.
3. That the fishing laws of the Colony are not binding upon United
States fishermen.
4. That American fishermen are not obliged to conform to our
Bevenue and Custom Laws.
Now I would draw attention to the fact that assertion of the
United States Government " that the Convention of 1818 justifies
" no interference on any grounds with American citizens exercising
" a right to a fishery in common with His Majesty's subjects," is
equivalent to a declaration that American citizens can do as they
please and violate our fishing and other laws with impimity.
In answer to that position, I would refer to the opinion of the
Law Officers of the Crown. Messrs. W. Atherton and Boundell Pal-
mer, who, on the 6th January 1863, declared as follows: —
" That, in our opinion, inhabitants of the United States, fishing
within waters in the territorial jurisdiction of the T/3gislature
of Newfounillan<l. are bound to obey, and arc legally punish-
able for disregarding, the laws and regulations of the fisheries
enacted by or undiT the authority of the provincial Legisla-
ture. The plain object of the Treaties above referred to was
to put the inhabitants of the T'nited States as regards the
'liberty to take fish' within the parts described of the British
Dominions on the same footing as 'subjects of His Britannic
Majesty ' ' in common witli whom ' under the terms of the
Treaty, such liberty was to be enjoyal. The ennctnients suli-
COLOMAL COXFEREXCE, 1907 603
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
sequently passed would not confirm the Treaties and provide Fifteeuth
for the suspension during the operations of those Treaties of P^y-
such laws. (Sic, as were or would be inconsistent with the terms 1907'''
and spirit of the Treaty, which ' terms and spirit ' are, it
appears to us, in no respect violated by the regulations bond Newfound-
fide made by the Government for the conduct of the fishery Fishery,
and applicable to British subjects so employed." (Sir Robert
My contention is that the Colony (subject to the King) is the
Sovereign Power, and that the Sovereign Power has the right to enact
bona fide legislation for the preservation of its fisheries, and also all
legislation inherent in its Sovereignty, such as Customs and Muni-
cipal Laws, and that subjects of a foreign Power that have Treaty
rights in the territorial waters subject to Sovereignty are liable to be
governed by our fishing laws, when they are applied to British sub-
jects and are admittedly made for the preservation of the fisheries.
I would also refer to the opinion of an American jurist, Hall,
which occurs in a passage on International Law. He says, in com-
menting on the Newfoundland fisheries question : —
".It was argued by the United States that the fishery rights con-
ceded by the Treaty were absolute, and were to be exercised
wholly free from the regulations or statutes of Newfoundland,
and from any other regulations of fishing now in force, or that
may be enacted b.v that Government; in other words, it was
contended that the simple grant to foreign subjects of the
right to enjoy certain national property in common with the
subjects of the State carried with it by implication an entire
surrender, in so far as such national propert.y was concerned,
of one of the highest rights of sovereignty, namely, the right
of legislation. That the American Government should have
put forward such a claim is scarcely intelligible."
As to the duty of the subjects of one nation to conform to the
laws of another, the doctrine is laid down as follows in Phillimore's
International Law: —
" With respect to merchant and private vessels, the rule of law is
that except under the provisions of express stipulation such
vessels have no exemption from the territorial jurisdiction of
the harbour or port, or, so to speak, territorial waters in which
they lie."
And this is supported by the late Chief Justice Marshall of the
United States as follows : —
" When private individuals of one nation spread themselves
through another, as business or caprice may direct, mingling
indiscriminately with the inhabitants of that other, and when
merchant vessels enter for the purpose of trade, it would be
obviously inconvenient and dangerous to society and would
subject the laws to continued infraction and the Government
to degradation, if such individuals or merchant ships did not
all temporarily submit to local regulations and were not amen-
able to the jurisdiction of the country, nor can a foreign
sovereign have any motive in wishing such exemption. His
subjects thus passing into foreign countries are not employed
by him. nor are they engaged in national pursuits. Conse-
quently there are powerful motives for not exempting persons
of this description from the jurisdiction of the eountrv in
604 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth which they are found, and not one motive for acquiring it.
,.^^7/ The implied license therefore, under which they enter can
nth Mav, 1 i 1 1 1 • ^
1907 never be construed to grant such an exemption. One sovereign,
being in no respect amenable to another, is bound by obliga-
uind"" tions of the highest character not to degrade the dignity of
Fishery. tis nation by placing himself or its sovereign within the juris-
(Sir Robert diction of another. A foreign sovereign is not understood as
2°'i'') intending to subject himself to a jurisdiction incompatible
with his dignity and the dignity of the nation."
English law is the same, as in the celebrated case of the " Fran-
conia," the judges concurring with Mr. Justice Lindley when he
said :—
" It is conceded that even in time of peace the territoriality of a
foreign merchant ship within 3 miles of the coast of any State
does not exempt that ship or its crew from the operation of
those laws which relate to its revenue and its fisheries."
And Sir Travers Twiss states the law thus: —
" Treaty engagements in such matters as fisheries in common do
not give any other right than that which is expressed in the
specific terms."
Again, the United States Government, as far back as 1856,
recognised not only the right, but the desirability, of the enforce-
ment of the laws of Newfoundland upon United States citizens
entering the territorial waters of the Colony to engage in fishing.
On the 28th March, 1856, the following instructions to the masters of
American fishing vessels was issued from the State Department,
Washington, namely: —
" It is understood that there are certain Acts of the British North
American Colonial Legislature, as also, perhaps, Executive
regulations, intended to prevent the wanton destruction of the
fish which frequent the coasts of the Colonies and injurious to
the fishing thereon. It is deemed reasonable and desirable that
both United States and British fishermen should pay a lika
respect to such laws and regulations which are designed to
preserve and increase the productiveness of the fisheries on
these coasts. Such being the object of these laws and regula-
tions, the observation of them is enforced upon the citizens
of the United States in a like manner as they are observed by
British subjects. By granting the mutual use of the inshore
fisheries neither party has yielded its right to civic jurisdiction
over a marine league along its coast. Its laws are as obligatory
upon the citizens or subjects of the other as upon its own."
In 1886 there was a similar recognition by the Government of the
United States of the binding effect of Colonial laws upon its citizens
when coming within the jurisdiction of the Colony. In a despatch
from Mr. Bayard, of the Department of State, Washington, to Sir
Lionel West, bearing date 10th ^May, 1886, it was stated: —
" Since 1818 certain important changes have taken place in fish-
ing which have mnterially modified the conditions under which
the business of inshore fishing is conducted, and it must have
great weight in any present administration of the Treaty. . .
Everything will be done by the United States to cause its
citizens engaged in fishing to conform to the obligations of the
COLONIAL COyPEREXCE, 1907 605
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Treaty and prevent an infraction of the fishing laws of the Fifteenth
British provinces." , ,P*y-
llth May,
Again, in a despatch from Mr. Bayard to Sir Lionel West of date, l^"^-
20th May. 18S6. that gentleman stated that he was desirous that due Newfound-
and full observance should be paid by the citizens of the United land.
States to local laws and commercial regulations of the ports of the Fishery.
British provinces. ^^'boS'.^^''*
This position is further upheld by a despatch from the Marquess
of Salisbury to Mr. White in 1887, in which he states that "such
" statutes are clearly within the powers of the respective Parliaments
" by which they were passed, and are in conformity with the Con-
" vention of 1818, especially in view of the passages of the Conven-
" tion which provide that the American fishermen shall be under such
" restrictions as shall be necessary to prevent them from abusing the
" privileges thereby reserved to them."
The question of the legality of laws and regulations in relation to
the conduct of the fisheries under the Treaty of 1818 passed by the
Canadian Parliament was discussed between the British Government
and the Canadian Government and that of the TJnited States in the
year 1886.
As far back as the year 1844, the Provinces of British North
America had adopted legislation for the enforcement of the provi-
sions of this very Treaty. They were passed by Nova Scotia. New
Brunswick, and Prince Edward's .Island, and afterwards by the Dom-
inion of Canada. Even while the dispute was pending between the
United States and Canada, an Act was passed to further amend the
Act respecting Foreign Fishing Vessels, which, having passed the
Canadian Parliament, tvas reserved by the Governor-General for His
Majesty's pleasure, and eventually received the Eoyal Assent on the
26th November, 1886. In ^larch. 1S86, the Canadian Government
promulgated the following instructions to its officers enforcing the
Canadian fishery laws: —
" You are to compel, if necessary, the maintenance of peace and
good order by foreign fishermen pursuing their calling, and
enjoying concurrent privileges of fishing and curing fish with
British fishermen, in those parts to which they are admitted by
the Treaty of 1888. You are to see that they obey the laws
of the country, and that they do not molest British fishermen
in the pursuit of their calling, and that they observe the regu-
lations of the fishery laws in every respect."
In a report to His Majesty's Government dated 1886, the late Sir
John Thompson, then Minister of Justice, and afterwards Premier
of the Dominion of Canada, wrote: —
" The right of the Parliament of Canada, with the Royal Assent,
to pass an Act on this subject to give that Treaty effect, or to
protect the people of Canada from an infringement of the
Treaty itself, is clear beyond question. An Act of that Parlia-
ment, duly passed according to constitutional form, has as
much the force of law in Canada, and binds as fully offenders
who come within its jurisdiction, as any Act of the Imperial
Parliament; and the efforts made on the part of the Govern-
ment of the United States to deny and refute the validity of
Colonial Statutes on this subject have been continued for
606 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth years, and in every instance have been set at naught by the
Day. Imperial authorities, or by the judicial tribunals."
14th May,
1907. If the Parliament of Canada had, and still has, the right to pass
~ and enforce such law s, the Newfoundland Legislature has ian equal
land. rigtt, for its constitution is the same.
Fishery. That was placed beyond question by the Imperial Act of 1865
(Sir Robert " an Act to remove nil d(j)ibts ns to the validity of Colonial laws,"
° ■' the Yth section of the which reads as follows: — •
" All laws or reputed laws, enacted or purporting to be enacted by
the Legislatures which have received the assent of Her Ma-
jesty in Council, or which have received the assent of the Gov-
ernor of the said Colony, in the name and on behalf of Her
Majesty, shall be, and be deemed to have been, valid and
eiieetual from the date. of such assent for all purposes what-
ever."
Now, with regard to the shipping of Newfoundlanders to form
part of the crews of American vessels fishing within territorial
waters. This was permitted by His Majesty^s Government under the
modus Vivendi of 1906 in contravention of the Colonial law. The
Colony has prohibited the engaging of Newfoundland labour. This
course was rendered necessary because the United States Treasur.v
Department has ruled that herrings taken by Newfoundland crews on
board of American vessels may be landed free of duty just as though
they had been taken by American crews. The effect of that ruling
has been to give to the merchants of Gloucester, Massachusetts, what
amounts to a monopoly of the TTnited States herring market, inde-
pendent competition being impossible in the face of an import duty
equivalent to 25 per cent of the value, which American traders are
enabled to evade.
I would once again revert to the despatch of Governor Sir George
Des Voeux to the Colonial Office, at the time that the Act under which
this prohibition is enforced was before His Majesty's Government.
You will please remember that this Act has been on the Statute
Book for 20 years. Sir George Des Voeux said, in speaking for his
Government : —
" The people of Newfoundland, like those of Canada, desire to use
the right to withhold a supply of bait as a means of inducing
the American Governments to remove the import duty on
British fish. . . . In a word, the principle that the Colonists
desire to maintain is 'live and let live,' and they merely object
to that of ' let others live by killing us.' "
When the prohibitive import duty is removed, the restriction im-
posed by the Bait Act, 1887, will cease to be enforced; for New-
foimdland is prepared to compete with the fishermen of the United
States or of any country upon equal terms, but she objects to give
free access to her unrivalled bait supplies to those who debar her from
their markets by prohibitive tariffs worked in so unjust and evasive
a manner as that set forth in the Treasury Order to which T have
referred.
Just a few words more and I have done. I submit that there is
nothing in the Treaty of 1818 whicli conveys a right to the United
States to employ Colonial fishermen to fish for them. I have heard it
argued that " what one does by another one doe,s by himself." That
is a maxim which applies entirely to the law of agency."
COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907 607
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Under the Treaty of 1818, the privilege of a fishery in common Fifteenth
with British subjects was granted to " the inhabitants of the United , ,i.P''7f
States," and the privilege was to " take " fish (not to buy or procure 1907.
it in any other way). The word '"take" was used in its special and
restricted meaning to distinguish the liberty from the rights which Ne'cfound-
the British subjects enjoyed, namely, to use the land as well as the Fishery,
sea, and to buy, sell, trade, or deal in any way with the products of (Sir Robert
the fisheries. I submit that the United States can only "take" fish Bond.)
and can only take it in common, that is to say, by the same imple-
ments of capture as British subjects and subject to the same restric-
tions, regulations, or laws that govern their conduct.
The permission to enter and fish cannot be construed as confer-
ring upon the admitted foreigner a right, but only a liberty or a
privilege.
In considering the Treaty of 1818, it is important to remember
the class to whom the concession is given, namely, the American
fishermen named in the article. (1) They must he inhabitants of
the United States. (2) They must he American fishermen, and the
liberty granted to them is to take, dry, and cure fish. The word shows
the privileged class to whom the Treaty applies, and the vessels em-
ployed therefor, and the special Treaty privilege of fishing in the
territorial waters of Newfoundland. There is no maxim of the law
better known than that which afiirms that the " express mention of
one person or thing is the exclusion of another." It would, therefore,
follow that the mention of '' inliabitants of the United States,"
" American fishermen," named in the Treaty, excludes all others.
But we are not left to ourselves to place the interpretation on this
Treaty, as to the class to whom the privileges are granted. It has
been so read by the inhabitants of the United States for the last
hundred years, and no later than last Jul.v, Jlr. A. P. Gardner, the
representative for Gloucester in Congress, writing to the " Boston
Herald," of Jul.v 9th, under date of July 7th. said as follows: — -
"I am in receipt of a letter, dated July 2nd. from the Secretary
of State (that is the Secretary of State for the United States)
answering a large number of questions raised in my Memor-
andum to Mr. Alexander, of the United States Fishery Com-
mission. The State Department believes that Newfoundland
has the right to prohibit its own citizens from engaging in or
prosecuting the fishery unless they are inhabitants of the
United States. If they are inhabitants of the United States we
are entitled to have them fish from our vessels regardless of
their citizenship."
The State Department of Washington having thus placed this
interpretation on the Treaty, it is difficult to conceive why the New-
foundland laws were over-ridden last .vear under the modus vivendi,
or why the Act of 1906 which merely enables the Colony to more
effectively enforce the Bait Act of 1887 upon its own citizens is still
held in abeyance by His !^^ajesty's ^Ministers. Wliat I have asked for
at the hands of His Majest.v's Government is: —
1st. The Assent of the Crown to the Act of 1906.
2nd. That the Colony be permitted to carry out those laws that
have been approved by the Crown.
3rd. That His Majesty's Government define the rights of Ameri-
can citizens under the Treaty of 1818.
608 COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth The Colony does not desire to limit in any way the rights of
iiti?*M American citizens under that Treaty. It asks for nothing but justice
1907. " ' aud responsibility sanctioned by the spirit and forms of the British
constitution.
^^land °'^' ^® ^° ^°^ think it just that permission should be given by His
Fishery. Majesty's Government to a foreign Power to over-ride or contravene
(Sir Robert the laws of the Colony, or that an undertaking should be given to a
Bond.) foreign Power by His Majesty's Government not to sanction certain
Colonial legislation.
It has been suggested that the matters in dispute might properly
be submitted to arbitration. I cannot see what there is to arbitrate
upon. To my mind, the only question is as to the binding effect of
Colonial laws upon American citizens when they come within British
jurisdiction. If it is intended to submit the Treaty to arbitration,
then I contend, that its terms are clear, that the privileges granted to
the inhabitants of the United States thereunder are not set forth in
language that is ambiguous. Vattel, probably the best authority
upon the interpretation of treaties, says : —
" The first general maxim of interpretation is, that it is not allow-
able to interpret what has no need of interpretation. When
the wording is in clear and precise terms and its meaning is
evident and leads to no absurd conclusion, there can be no
reason for refusing to admit the meaning which such Treaty
naturally presents, and to go elsewhere in search of conjectures
in order to restrict or extend it is but an attempt to elude it."
If, on the other hand, it is intended to submit Colonial statutes to
arbitration, then I respectfully contend that it would be derogatory
to the frown, and in direct contravention of the constitutional right
of the self-governing Colonies, to submit their statutes to the arbitra-
ment of any foreign Power or of any person, or body of men.
[After a short adjournment, the Conference, after discussion in
private, agreed that Sir R. Bond's Statement should he recorded.']
Wireless WIEELESS TELEGRAPHY CONVENTIOjST.
Telegraph.v.
CHAIRMAN: There was a point with regard to wireless tele-
graphy which Mr. Deakin wanted tn put, and we have the Postmaster-
General and Mr. Babington Smith hero.
Mr. DEAKIN: With regard to the proposed convention in rela-
tion to wireless telegraphy, as to which an agreement was arrived at
some little time ago, I understand that convention is now under the
consideration of a committee of the House of Commons.
Sir WILFRID LATTRIER: Agreement between whom?
■Mr. BUXTON: It is an international agreement, and we are
parties to it. The Colonies have the absolute power and option of
coming in, supposing we ratify it. at any time they like, or going
out at any time on a .vear's notice. Every self-governing Colony
has absolute liberty in regard to it. We have only committed o\ir-
selves so far as this country is concerned.
Mr. DEAKIN: The convention, as I remember it. proposes to
entrust to a future Conference the decision of questions relating to
wireless telegraphy, the systems to be used, and the methods adopted,
COLONIAL COXFEREXCE, 1901
609
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
by means of which something like a universal system of wireless may
be established or the various systems may be co-ordinated.
Mr. BRODEUR: Interchange.
Mr. BUXTON: .Inter-communication.
Mr. DEAKIN: These questions are to be referred to some jwr-
manent body on which each Power has votes.
Mr. BUXTON: This Conference took place, and all the great
Powers — I think every Power interested in it- — was represented. They
came to certain arrangements which now form the convention, as to
which the question is whether we should ratify it or not. The Con-
ference has now adjourned for five years and that convention, so far
as the Powers who ratify it are concerned, will come into force for all
of them; but they can aU go out on a year's notice. In the mean-
while, in the five years, the only things by which they are bound are
the actual terms of the convention. There is no standing body which
has any voice or power in regard either to the interpretation or en-
forcement of these regulations and articles of the convention. The
only body that exists is an International Bureau for merely clerical
purposes, the listing of wireless stations, and so on. It has no sort
of executive power of any kind. Between the meeting of one Con-
ference and the next each Power is free to carry out the convention
and to interpret it in the way it thinks right. There is no body with
executive power between the two meetings of the Conference.
Mr. DEAKIN : Is it for the next Conference that a scale of voting
was proposed under which the maximum number of votes or repre-
sentatives was to be six for a country with colonies?
Mr. BUXTON : Each of the self-governing Colonies was com-
municated with and informed the Conference was to take place. A
draft was sent to them for consideration. I think they all desired
that they should not be committed by any arrangements come to by
this country in regard to wireless telegraphy until they had had an
opportunity of seeing how the convention worked out after it was
discussed, considered, and ratified. They would have fuU power then
to come in at any moment, or to go out again if they liked on a year's
notice. Therefore, with regard to the Colonies, there was no question
about their having a vote at the Conference which took place last
October. As regards future Conferences, the question was raised as
to the method of representation of the various Colonies and the votes
they should have, and how they should be enabled to join in future
Conferences. There were two precedents: one is the International
Telegraph Convention, under which any country can practically say
that it desires a vote for this Colony or the other Colony so long as
they have separate telegraph administrations. The other system is
that of the Postal Union, under which each country, according to the
importance of its Colonies, is allowed so many votes. It was a ques-
tion really which of those two precedents, that of the Telegraph
Convention or that of the Postal Convention, was the best for our
purpose. The Conference finally decided they would follow the Postal
Union rather than the Telegraph Convention, on the ground that
that enables the Conference to allot votes to the Colonies according
to their! importance, and does not enable a country to claim any
number of votes for, perhaps, minute Colonies of no importance,
simply because they happen to have a separate telegraph administra-
tion. The article passed by the Conference the other day fixes for
58—39
Fifteenth
Day.
14th May,
1907.
Wireless
Telegraphy.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
610 C0L02i'IAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth any country and its Colonies a maximum of six votes. No country
^ay. need have six votes, but that is the maximum. That is the principle
1907.^'^' "^ ^^ Postal Union which has been in existence for many years, and
has worked very satisfactorily. Under it, I may say, at the present
Wireless moment India, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and South Africa
,ir each have a vote.
(Mr.
Buxton.) Mr. DEAKIN: It might be presumed, then, at the next Confer-
ence that each of the six, if adhering, would be entitled to a vote.
Mr. BUXTON: Not "entitled"; that is to say, there is no
obligation on the Conference to allot votes, or to allot any particular
number of votes. It is a question of discussion as between the dif-
ferent countries, those interested in Colonies and having Colonies.
I do not think there is any question about it that the precedent of
the Postal Union will be taken, and these five votes in addition to one
for Great Britain wiU unquestionably be given.
Sir JOSEPH WAED: Who would settle that?
Mr. BUXTON : It will be settled by the next Conference. Mean-
while, before the next Conference, which is five years hence, the
country proposing to suggest Colonial votes for its Colonies makes
the suggestion to the various countries concerned. Any other country
may then make suggestions, and what we have had in mind in refer-
ence to the matter is that sometime before the next Conference takes
place, we should communicate in a friendly way with, at all events,
the important countries concerned to discuss what number of votes
should be allotted and how allotted. I should like to add that, on
the motion of the British delegates, it was decided by the Conference
that that should be the first business of the next Conference, and
that, therefore, any votes allotted will come into force at the l>egin-
ning of the Conference, so they will have the full power of voting
from the beginning of the new Conference.
Mr. DEAKIN: The new Conference may, if it likes, say yes, we
agree, Canada may have a vote; and then go on to consider a tiny
colony of some other Power, giving it a vote and placing it on an
equality with Canada. T am taking a most exaggerated contrast. Is
that possible?
Mr. BUXTON: Certainly.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is to say, there is no standard fixed below
which there shall be no vote.
Mr. BUXTON: Except that under the Postal Union, the theory
and practice has been that votes are all allotted to important Colonies.
Mr. BABINGTON SMITH: It is n matter for the Conference
to decide. As a matter of fact, under the Postal Union some of the
other countries which have colonies have a certain number of votes
for them. France, for instance, which has colonial possessions of
considerable importance, has, I think, three colonial votes, Oerniany
has two; Portugal, has two; Holland has two; and the other
countries which have small colonies have most of them one vote.
Mr. DEAKIN: Then there is no real proportion.
Mr. BABINGTON SMITH : There is no precise proportion as to
the importance of the Colony; but, as a matter of fact, I think Sir
Joseph Ward will agree that the system has not worked unsatisfac-
torily for us.
COLONIAL CONFEREKCB, 1907 611
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is so. Fifteenth
Mr. BABINGTON SMITH: With the additional vote obtained nt^'^May.
for New Zealand at the last Conference, I think the allotment of 1907.
votes is satisfactory from the point of view of the British Empire. ~ T
Wireless
Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think it is satisfactory for this reason. Telegraphy.
There is no getting over the general position in the world at large, (Mr.
which forms the Postal Union, that the great majority of the repre- s,n"fhT
sentatives are outside the British Dominions. At the Postal Con-
!ference we had quite a fight to get one extra vote for a British
Colony — that is. New Zealand — and at the same time to get South
Africa put in the position of having a direct vote. On the matter
of voting I do not think we can improve upon that of the Postal Con-
ference, which has worked satisfactorily. The great majority of the
contributors to the Postal Union are Continental people and they
outnumber us, and until we get into the position of having other
jgreat Colonies in addition to those we have already, which have
grown to manhood, the odds are 50 to 1 that we will not get an in-
crease in the representation we have now. As long as we have the
assurance from Mr. Buxton that every effort to get the maximum of
votes to be used in the interest of Great Britain and her Colonies at
the next wireless telegraphy conference I think we have nothing to
complain of. Although I know you cannot control it, it comes back
to the Conference to say whether or not those votes are to be exer-
cised.
Mr. BUXTON : I meant, we have the precedent of the Postal
Union in which we have these votes, and I have little doubt from the
knowledge which one has acquired with reference to the working of
these international conventions and conferences, that they would see
the reasonableness of our proposal to put wireless telegraphy on the
same basis as the Postal Union, and we should obtain those votes.
T cannot guarantee it. Though we mav only have five votes, the
representatives of any other colony can be present and take part in
the discussion at the Conference as a British delegate. But I woiild
like to put this as strongly as J can that the actual voting is really
not very material. The material thing is the influence and power of
those representing Great Britain and its colonies, and also the ability
of the delegates. At this wireless telegraphy conference last time we
only had one vote. We had on the whole a hostile majority against
us. but in consequence of the attitude we took up and the very admir-
able handling of the matter by the British delegates, we really turned
that convention topsy-turvy. We obtained every single point we
wanted, and made the convention as we now believe a convention
very satisfactory from the national point of view and the Admiralty
point of view; whereas, as it stood it was very unsatisfactory and
we should not have agreed to it. We only had one vote at that time
and all the other Powers one vote : sn we were in an absolutel
minority, and it was really more moral strength than voting strength.
Mr. DEAKTN: But was not that due to the circumstances that
British predominance in wireless telegraphy is so marked, the situa-
tion of the Empire is so special, and the opportunities it affords for
wireless telegraphy so much greater, that you only had to step oiit of
the Conference and it would have practically fallen to pieces?
Mr. BUXTON : No, it would have gone through anyhow.
Mr. DEAKTN: Besides that is not there a great difference be-
58—394
612 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth tween the Postal Union, with its exchange of services, and its absolute
14th^*Mar ^^^^^^^i^y ^°^ i°^^^ action throughout the world, and the present con-
1907.'"' dition of wireless telegraphy which has taken great developments
— — — only in this Empire, where it plays an important part with the navy?
Telegra^Av. '^^^ System is being extended to some of its dominions, and will be
(Mr. extended to others. What gain corresponding to those, which are
Deakin.) obvious in the case of the Postal Union, is there in establishing a
Union for wireless telegraphy while one member is so far immensely
superior to the others? What are we to gain? Are we not accepting
a limitation of a power we at present enjoy without an equivalent
advantage?
Mr. BUXTON : That raises the whole question of the merits of
the Convention, which is now before the Select Committee of the
House of Commons, and opens out a very big question. I hold
strongly the view that while it is perfectly true that we are in a
dominant position in regard to wireless telegraphy at the present
time, it is to our advantage to have inter-comnnmication between the
various systems, and it is to our disadvantage to have a particular
system in this country, the predominating system, which refuses to
inter-communicate. I am speaking specially from the naval point of
view as well as the commercial point of view. The best method in
which wireless telegraphy can be developed (and it is to our advantage
to have it developed) is by means of an International Convention
which will introduce free inter-communication, thouarh subiect to
exemption of any stations which we think are better exempted. Inter-
national regulation will tend to prevent confusion and interference
which is really the evil of wireless telegraphy. Unless you have
very carefully drawn regulations and power to enforce them, the
difficulty is to prevent confusion and interference and make the
best use of the invention. The advantage to us in having an Inter-
national Convention is that you bring all these different systems
and different countries under an obligation not only to inter-com-
municate, which is to our commercial advantage, but also to carry
out these very carefully drawn regulations under which we believe
interference and confusion will be reduced to a minimum. I am
only treating it very broadly.
Mr. DEAKIN: If there were reciprocal preferences in this matter,
it might be very advantageous; but when the Empire has at present
all to give and very little to gain, are not we anticipating a state of
things which has not yet arisen?
Mr. BUXTON: "May I ask what we are giving?
Mr. UEAKIN: We give a power of communicating with the
whole of the stations which we have and all our ships.
Mr. BUXTON: Except so far as we like to exempt them.
Mr. DEAKIN : That exemption could only be used in very special
circumstances.
Mr. BUXTON: It could ho used so far as the Government is con-
cerned at ever^- one of their stations.
Mr. DEAKIN: You mean you could adhere to the Convention
and at the same time exempt the whole of your territory from it?
Mr. BUXTON: No, you must have a certain number of stations
for carrying out the international work, but all the existing stations,
and any others you like to name, from an Admiralty or any other
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
613
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
point of view, can be exempted; that is one of the conditions on
which we agreed to the Convention.
Mr. DEAKIN: What does that meana? Those stations will be
sending out their wireless messages. In what way are they prevented
from being picked up because the station is exempted?
Mr. BUXTON : Exempted stations come under the Convention
in every other respect; that is to say, they are as much protected
from confusion and interference as are the other stations.
Mr. DEAKIN: That is to say, they can receive but are exempt
from exchanging and communicating?
Mr. BUXTON : Yes. They are protected from wilful interference
or even accidental, by the various regulations laid down for the
management of coast stations and ship stations.
Mr. DEAKIN : We in Australia have before us at present at least
two systems of wireless telegraphy. One has established stations.
Mr. BUXTON : One is the Marconi, and what is the other ?
Mr. DEAKIN: The De Forest, and we have proposals from a
tliird. It means considerable expense on a very long coast line if any
one of those systems is to be adopted. If stations were established
simply for defence purposes, should we be under any obligation to
allow their use in time of peace? When this Convention was con-
cluded, we were in the midst of local negotiations, and a good deal
of apprehension was created lest, if we went to this expense, one of
the effects of the Convention might be to require us to place those
stations at the disposal of Powers inimical to us.
Mr. BUXTON: Do you mean in time of peace or war?
Mr. DEAItTN: In time of peace.
Mr. BUXTON: How in time of peace would it be disadvantage-
ous?
Mr. DEAKIN : Would they not become familiar with their where-
abouts, and range of communication?
Mr. BUXTON: Supposing you had a station which was not in-
tercommunicable, what would you propose to use it for?
Mr. DEAKIN: For our own ships only?
Mr. BUXTON: These other ships can be fitted with the non-
Marconi apparatus?
Mr. DEAKIN: I assume so.
Mr. BUXTON : Then there is nothing to prevent them communi-
cating. If you are going to use a station for any practical purpose
you cannot keep its whereabouts a secret. I understand you to say
they would get to know where it was.
Mr. DEAKIN : Get to know exactly how many stations there were
on our coast.
Mr. BUXTON : Surely that would be the same whether it was the
Marconi system or anything else; because if they are going to be
used they must know where they are.
Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly. But the question for us, was whether
these stations for defensive purposes should become public property.
Mr. BABINGTON SMITH: There is nothing in the Convention
which prevents purely Naval and Military stations being kept abso-
Fifteenth
Day.
Uth May,
1907.
Wireless
Telegraphy.
(Mr.
Buxton.)
614
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
Fifteenth
Day.
Uth May,
1907.
Wireless
Telegraphy
(Mr.
Babiugtou
Smith.)
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
lutely secret and free from communication with anybody. Such
stations are outside the Convention.
Mr. DEAKIN: It is months since the pax)Cis passed under my
hands, and probably I am not recalhng the exact terms of the Con-
vention.
Mr. BUXTON: I think you will find undoubtedly, when you
come to look them up again, that everj- one of those points you have
made, and many others which were made as to the original draft
Convention, have been entirely met.
Mr. DEAKTX: Since the Convention was published?
Mr. BUXTON : There is an amended Convention. You are
speaking probably of the draft of the old one in which there are pro'
bably many points to which we should not agree.
Mr. DEAKTN: I did not read any Convention except the first.
Mr. BUXTON : I would like to say, as emphatically as I can, that
the Board of Admiralty, who, after all, are the people most concerned
in this matter, think it would be a very serious matter if this Con-
vention were not ratified. That they have stated publicly ; and they
have sent their experts and other witnesses to say so. and very em-
phatically, to the Select Committee. Putting aside the question of
naval defence — on which I think they are satisfied — any naval station
i5 absolutely outside the Convention if it is intended to be purely a
■naval station. Then comes this question from your point of view;
a^ Tn the commercial station which can only, unless iiitereonimuni-
cation is made, communicate with certain ships it would surely be to
your advantage, in Australia, that if you have a wireless station at
all, it should be able to communicate with every system and every
ship, whether British or foreign. Recollect that all British ships are
not fitted with the Marconi system; there is the De Forest and
other British systems. It would surely be to the disadvantage of
Australia, from the commercial point of view, if a ship comes out
there fitted with the De Forest system and finds a Marconi station
and cannot communicate; whereas it would be greatly to the advan-
tage of Australia, from the commercial point of view, that whatever
the ship's system might be it should be able to communicate with the
station.
Mr. DEAKIN: Your argument would apply equally if we adopt
the De Forest or any other system.
Mr. BUXTON: Yes. The only company which objects to inter-
communication is the jvlarconi Company. They consider they have,
though I do not think they have, to a certain extent a monopoly, and
would like to keep it. I do not think they have a monopoly, and
every month and ever.v year is reducing this monopoly, because the
De Forest and other big companies are coming to the fore. They
want you no doubt to agree to put up a station which will prevent
any ships coming to Australia fitted with any wireless apparatus
except Marconi, because they will not communicate with anyone.
That cannot be, I should have thought, to the advantage of Australia,
or to the advantage of the commercial community.
Mr. DEAK,TN : The only advantage is from a naval defence point
of view.
Mr. BUXTON : That I can safely say has been entirely met, and
the Admiralty are absolutely satisfied with regard to it.
COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
615
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Mr. DEAKIN: Our two points are, first, as to representation,
we seemed to be in danger of entering a conference in which the
chances were we should be outvoted by communities far smaller than
ourselves, and with far less developed systems of intercommunication.
They would get all the benefit of having intercommunication through-
out the British Dominions in this way, and practically do nothing
or next to nothing in exchange. Our second point was whether, as
there are parts of Australia where communication for all ordinary
commercial purposes would be rather rare and inconsiderable, but
where stations would be justified from a defence point of view, this
conference would not oblige us to place them at the service, in time
of peace at all events, of all ships, and by that means deprive us of
some advantage in time of war. I am criticising generally from
memory the substance of the memorandum which came before me
last year.
Mr. BUXTON: I think both those fears are met by the terms of
the Convention as passed.
Mr. DEAKIN: Was it amended in both those respects?
Mr. BUXTON : Yes, very much so ; because in the original Con-
vention Germany proposed that there should be no votes for the
Colonies whatever, but only one vote for each country and the
Colonies not represented at all. In regard to the other point the
Admiralty having got all the amendments they required in the
original draft Convention, are now fully satisfied, not only that the
Convention is a good thing in itself, but that it would be a disad-
vantage both from a naval and commercial point of view if we did
not ratify it.
Mr. DEAKIX : The great safeguard so far as I can grasp it at
present is the power of withdrawal after 12 months.
Mr. BUXTON : Yes ; supposing it is found that intercommuni-
cation is not satisfactory, and certainly if it is found to be in any
possible sense a danger, we should have no hesitation whatever about
withdrawing from the Convention, which we can do at 12 months'
notice.
Mr. DEAKIN : I understood it was final, that if you were in you
could not get out, unless you took the extraordinary step of seeking
to dissolve the conference.
Mr. BUXTON : No, you can withdraw with the greatest ease.
Mr. EEODEIIR: What is our position in the Colonies with re-
gard to that Convention which has been made? Are we affected in
any way?
'Mr. BUXTON: No. The position of each self-governing Colony
is this: They did not take part in the deliberations of the Conference
because it was understood they, naturally, did not wish to be com-
mitted to the terms of the Convention tmtil they had an opportunity
of considering it in all its bearings after it was passed. Therefore,
they had nothing to do with the drafting of the Convention. The
Convention has now been radically modified from the draft, and they
have full liberty to adhere or not. They can come in at any time.
Mr. BRODEUK: The draft Convention has never been sub-
mitted.
Mr. BUXTON: Yes; that was sent to all of them. The new
Convention has now been sent out, but it was only last January, so
Fifteenth
Day.
14th May,
1907.
Wireless
Telegraphy.
(Mr.
Buxton.)
616 COLONIAL COyPERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth that the position of the Colonies is that, after they have considered
14th ^Mar ^® amended Convention, there is no obligation to come in ; and if
1907. ' they do not want to come in, they stand out; it is on their own
- — "- initiative. If they want to come in, they can come in at anv day,
Wireless j . , ,•
Telegraphy. ^^'^ '^^^ °° °^* '^^ ^ ^^^^ ^ notice.
(Mr. Mr. ERODE UK: I was not in the Department when the matter
Buxton.) ^^g brought to the attention of the Government, but I understand
the draft Convention was submitted by the British Government to
the Colonies. We answered, as far as Canada was concerned, that we
had no objection to that draft Convention. The meeting of the
Conference took place, and a modified Convention has been made
out, which has been submitted to the Government.
Mr. BUXTON: The original draft Convention was sent to the
various Colonies, not asking them to agree to it or join, but for
information, and pointing out at the same time that they would
not be bound by it until after they had an opportunity of considering
the draft Convention as amended after the Conference. That has
now been sent out, some time in January, to the various Colonies
for their consideration, pointing out, I presume, this particular
clause, which was put in at the desire of the Colonial Office, enabl-
ing them, as I say, to stay out if they liked, or come in if they liked
at any time and go out again on a year's notice.
Mr. BRODEtTR: The question of representation has been dis-
cussed in this despatch sent to Canada.
Mr. BUXTON: It was merely a copy sent for information. It
does not come into force until July of next year.
Mr. BABINGTON SMITH: It runs for an indefinite period.
Mr. DEAKIN: The Conference is to meet five years from
when?
Mr. BABINGTON SMITH: It meets in 1911.
Mr. BUXTON: That is about five years from the time of the
last meeting.
CHAIRMAN: With regard to the explanations, we purposely
put off our general despatch until the Select Committee had finished
sitting.
Mr. BRODEUR: The Committee is still sitting?
CHAIRMAN: Yes.
Mr. BUXTON. We have practically completed taking evidence.
We shall probably report after Whitsuntide.
Mr. DEAKIN: That will deal completely with the whole of this
question ?
Mr. BUXTON: I imagine so.
Mr. DEAKIN: Does it point to still further amendments to the
draft Convention?
Mr. BUXTON: There is no question before the Committee and
the Government of amendment of the Convention as it now stands.
We have to take it or leave it as it is. The Convention was ham-
mered out with British dologatcs representing the War Office, the
Admiralty, and the Post Office. They agreed to it and thought it
satisfactory. The Committee is appointed to report to the Govern-
COLOXIAL COXFEREyCE, 1907 617
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
ment what they think would be the results if it is ratified or not Fifteenth
ratifie^J- Utriiay.
Mr. DEAKIN : There was then an original Convention and an ^^^-
amending Convention? Wireless
Mr. BUXTON: There was an original Convention in 1903. To Telegraphy,
that we did not adhere because we thought it was premature and had Buxton )
no legislation to carry out any conclusion they came to, but it was
generally understood to be a preliminary Conference. That Con-
ference agreed to a protocol, which formed the basis of the draft
proposal for the new Conference which was called last October. The
draft Convention T have spoken of all through is based upon the
protocol of 1903.
Mr. DEAKIN : The one for which you are responsible, which
you recommend, and which has been considered by the Committee,
is the amended Convention of 1906?
Mr. BUXTON: Yes.
Mr. DEAKIN : That is now being disposed of by the Comimittee
of the House of Commons?
Mr. BUXTON : I think only two Articles out of the whole of the
draft Convention have not been altered, in some cases entirely re-
versed, between the draft and the amended Convention at the in-
stigation of the British delegates.
Mr. BRODEUE: I understand at the next sitting of the Con-
ference you will discuss the question of the representation of the
Colonies; it has not been disposed of.
Mr. BUXTON : Yes, that is the first thing. The question of the
maximum of votes has been discussed. The question how these
votes shall be allotted has not been discussed. In regard to voting,
it would have been physically impossible for that question to be
discussed at the last Conference, because all Colonies have liberty
to come in or not, and nobody knows yet who is coming in, and
therefore it would be idle to allot votes to Newfoundland or Canada
until we knew whether they were coming in or not.
Mr. DEAKIN: Did you fix a meeting without leaving it open?
Mr. BUXTON: Yes.
Sir .TO'-^EP!T WARD: As far n? I nm concerned, the informa-
tion which has been adduced is very valuable.
Mr. BUXTON : I am glad to have had the opportunity of clear-
ing up some misapprehensions which have arisen.
Mr. DEAKIN: It is evident that the memorandum placed be-
fore me related to the original Convention and not to the amended
Convention.
Mr. BUXTON : No doubt the Colonial Office sending it made it
clear it does not come into force for 18 months and, therefore, it
did not appear urgent.
Mr. BRODEUE: I understand it was simply communicated to
us and we were not asked to make any representations with regard
to the Convention.
Mr. BUXTON : It was sent to you for information to show
how the Colonies stand, and for them to consider whether they will
join it or not.
618 COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth Mr. BEODETJE: I understand we will have some further com-
14th ^May munication with regard to it.
1907. " Sir WILFEID LAUEIER: Is there anything else to discuss?
Wireless CHAniMAN : There is this motion of Mr. Deakin.
(Mr. ^^^' DEAKTN": It is with reference to steps to be taken to bring
Buxton.) the Colonial Office in touch with the self-governing dominions with
which it has to deal.
Interchange INTERCHANGE OF PERMANENT STAEF.
of Perman-
ent Stafi.
Mr. DEAIQN : The resolution, of which notice was given, is
' That the Secretary of State for the Colonies be invited to frame a
" scheme which wiU create opportunities for members of the per-
" manent stafF of the Colonial Office to acquire more intimate
" knowledge of the circumstances and conditions of the Colonies
" with whose business they have to deal, whether by appointments,
" temporary interchanges, or periodical visits of officers, or similar
" means." May I first in a general way point out that Departments
of State are subjected to two entirely different criticisms; first of
all those of the laissez-faire school, who wish to see those Depart-
ments limited to the narrowest possible sphere of action, and who
endeavour to justify their doctrine of the unwisdom of State inter-
ference by continual attacks upon the State servants employed.
With those we have never had any sympathy. The school of thought
with which we are most familiar in Australia is antipodean in this
regard as in some others. We have freely used State agencies and
continue to use them, and many of us are strongly of opinion that
it is only by their employment that the complex conditions of mo-
dem government can be dealt with. If, therefore, we criticise State
Departments it is because so much of the success of the policy which
we advocate depends upon them and upon their power of adaptation
to the business side of social life. In Australia we are constant cri-
tics of our own Departments, and experience shows, with good rea-
son. One of the chief tasks of our Parliament is that of endeavour-
ing to bring the various agencies comprised in their public offices
into more fruitful relation with the circumstances of the country.
We have busy Parliaments passing many laws, most of them de-
manding a great deal, but we find the purposes of those laws defeated
or their ends avoided, unless by constant criticism and revision of
methods we keep our Departments, to use a familiar expression, up
to date.
In Australia we are also somewhat singular, inasmuch as political
patronage, as such, does not exist. The Government of the Com-
monwealth has not the power to appoint an office boy in the Com-
monwealth. Our Parliament has passed a law which disassociates us
entirely from the great public service over which we preside. En-
try into that service the stages of promotion and remuneration, and
all other conditions of the service, are laid down in the law. The
administration of that law is entrusted to an independent Public
Service Commissioner.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Who makes the appointments?
^fr. DEAKIN: He makes the appointments. Ministers cannot
differ from the recommendation of the Public Service Commissioner
without laying the whole case before Parliament, and stating the
COLONIAL COyFEREKCE, 1907 619
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53
grounds on which iuey propose to reject it. If it is rejected the Fifteenth
Commissioner makes another nomination. 14tli May,
1907.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: He has the appointment, and you
: j- V —- — ■--- ""- ""^ -Fi-vx^x-c^.., ai.u ,>uu Interchange
cannot dissent, except for cause? of Perman-
ent Staff.
Mr. DEAKIN: Except for cause laid before Parliament and 'Mr.
approved. That interposes another set of considerations. There being iJiakin.)
no direct power of control in Ministers, that is to say. there being no
control by appointment or dismissal in the hands of Ministers, the
service having a certain independence of its own, it becomes all the
more necessary for us to exercise our criticism. Rewards and pun-
ishment are dispensed by the Commissioner, whose task it is to
maintain efficiency. Our departments, free from patronage, might
become merely mechanical in methods without criticism. Perhaps
in that way we pay something for our freedom from the burden of
patronage, and the many annoying associations connected with it.
So that when we criticise a public service, it need not be, and cer-
tainly has uot been any criticisms I have uttered here, a reflection
upon the capacity of those engaged. It certainly is no reflection
upon their integrity. Every country has its public service, and so
far as I am acquainted with it, no country has a public service of a
higher standard than Great Britain and its Dominions. The cri-
ticism of a public department does not necessarily mean a challenge
either of the ability and certainly never of the honesty of its mem-
bers. There are public departments in every other country besides
our own. An interesting but rather imaginative gentleman who
waited upon me some little time ago, and afterwards was good
enough to credit me in the public press with some of his own obser-
vations, pointed out that in his own country the bureaucracy was
dominant, extremely capable, not, in his opinion, extremely efficient,
but more powerful than ministers and parliaments. He pointed
to his own country and certain other Continental countries as indi-
cating what he called the rule of the bureaucracy. I told him then
frankly that we saw something of that spirit even in our own coun-
try. We saw something of it in this country. But neither showed
the state of things described by him. Our public departments were
in much closer touch with our legislature, and not, as he suggested,
sometimes almost in revolt against it. I mention the incident be-
cause it is partly the reason why I have made these preliminary
remarks before coming to the question of the possible means we sug-
gest for the consideration of the Secretary of State in regard to the
Colonial Office. We make similar suggestions in our own country
for every department. Possibly if we were associated with every
public department in this country we should make it in all here. It
is only because it is the Colonial Office with which we are directly
connected and in respect to which we have a title to be heard, because
its operations directly affect us that my observations are confined to
it. I hope I have cleared away any possible misapprehension in this
regard.
The Colonial Office has, apart from the very important relation
of which it is the channel, not only the most extensive, but the most
difficult task, that a department can be called upon to perform. The
very ablest men of Great Britain, if they were public servants in
this department, collected into this building, shut up in it, and left
620 COLOyiAL COyFEBENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
Fifteenth dependent upon what they read or hear to understand the conditions
^^y; of the hundred and one forms of government and varieties of con-
1907. " ' ditions under which the Crown Colonies and self-governing Colo-
nies grow up, would be quite unable to cope with them. What is
:bit^change <Jone in the Crown Colonies is done with officers of this department;
ent Staff. ^^^^ i^ ^° ^^y> their whole services are composed of members of this
(Mr. department. They return here more or less frequently, certain of
Deakin.) those now in this office having been employed in the Crown Colo-
nies, and certain of those who were in this office having been sent
to the Crown Colonies. By this means there is a certain interchange
which keeps them in touch with one another, and most essential that
touch is. But with regard to the self-governing Colonies, the only
officer who does come and go is the chief officer of all, the Governor
or Governor-General, as the case may be. His functions are of so
general and of so serious a character that they are not numerous.
He does not come into frequent relations with many of the depart-
ments of the government he administers, and looks down upon their
working from an altitude which though advantageous, does not per-
mit of the intimate acquaintance with them which Ministers neces-
sarily gain; moreover, when he is transferred to another government,
or even when he returns to this country, his services and knowledge
appear to be employed to a comparatively limited extent. Conse-
quently, we have at present an altogether insufficient means of touch
between the Dominions which we specially represent and the officers
in Downing Street with whom we are in continuous relation by cor-
respondence. Most of the officers here are necessarily working for
people who are living under conditions unknown to them. That is
more true of tropical countries or those in which there are coloured
races, but it applies to some extent to the great self-governing Dom-
inions. We had one illustration here in relation to the Emigration
Board, showing that even when they were dealing with our own peo-
ple and our own circumstances, a most regrettable want of knowl-
edge and a most distinct want of sympathy were displayed. I do not
see how any effort on the part of able men here can suffice unless
they are assisted by direct means of knowledge and of assimilation.
The body politic would be unhealthy, and must remain unhealthy, as
our own would if the circulation of its blood were impeded, and so
must this office unless there is some continuous intercommunication
of a personal character kept up. We have suggested in this resolu-
ion several means. We propose that men of experience in the outer
Dominions might be selected to fill some vacancies that occur here.
I do not know enough of your system of appointment and promotions
in the public service in this country to judge how far that is practi-
cable, such appointments when made might be extremely advan-
tageous or. nt all events, periodical visits of officers. The idea we
had in temporary exchanges was that just as we are now sending our
military ofiiceis to Canada, to South .\frica. and to this country to
complete their training as members of the military service here,
while British officers come to us to gain colonial experience, there
might be a similar advantage from an interchange of officials, of
about the same salary and standing, so far as it could be arranged
between this office and the Colonies. We have always some military
officers away from Australia, gaining experience of service elsewhere.
Why should not some of our civil officers be employed here, their
places being taken in our country by the officers whose work here they
would for the time being assume? By this means we should obtain
COLONIAL CONFEREXCE, 1907 621
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
in each office men who after being twelve months 'u the other country Fifteenth
would have gradually absorbed a great deal of that knowledge which Day.
is necessary for the interpretation of despatches, especially on im- ^ ■•g^f^^'
portant subjects where they are affected either by local conditions or
local situations. That is a method which would only involve some- Interchange
thing for travelUng expenses. ,It would not be expensive, and might "^ g^j. staff"'
prove extremely valuable also to the men from the Dominions over (jj^,.
the seas who were temporarily employed in this office. They would Deakin.)
be able to inform us of those methods either for our adoption or to
enable us to understand the communications that we received. Where
this is not possible, we suggest that men of higher standing in the
service, when they could be spared, should spend, say, six months in
Canada, and then return here for a time, then give six months to
South Africa, or some lesser period if that be too long. It need not
necessarily be the same officer or officers. By this means a Minister
might have the advantage and benefit of having at his elbow men
who woiild be associated with the correspondence and communications
relating to these particular Colonies and their constitutions who
would be able at once to put him in relatively direct touch with them.
These are only mentioned as some of the means which might be
adopted. Some means must be adopted. We feel that this Colonial
Office not only has grown but will continue to grow. The population
in its charge will multiply, its problems will increase in variety.
There can be no corresponding increase in the number of Ministers
or of Parliamentary Under Secretaries of State. More and more
therefore must Ministers and Parliamentary Under Secretaries rely
upon the permanent officials and more and more is it necessary
that those officials should have the opportunity of personal acquaint-
ance with the countries with regard to whose proposals they have so
much to say. I am admitting that in Australia itself to understand
either the temper of the people, the manner of working our political
institutions, or the interpretation that is put upon our constitutional
relations is a task of years. It is taking us a considerable time to
know ourselves. We are not surprised to discover at this end of the
world that because we use the same names as are employed in Great
Britain, and often the same procedure, institutions of ours are sup-
posed to be identical with yours, which when examined exhibit
marked divergencies. I know no means by which that kind of know-
ledge can be acquired without personal knowledge.
Of course it would be highly advantageous if a certain number
of recruits for the Colonial Office were obtained from time to time
from young men born or brought up in Canada, South Africa, or
other parts, provided they came at an age which allowed them time
to become identified with the Colony. That is not a matter for me
to dwell upon. If the Colonial Office is to continue to occupy its
present relations to all these various Dominions it is perfectly certain
that as its responsibilities increase its equipment must increase also,
and in that new equipment a conspicuous place, we venture to sug-
gest, should be given to men who speak from personal knowledge, and
who deal with distant countries with whom they sympathise after
making themselves familiar with the facts upon which they are called
upon to advise.
It must be remembered that as years go on the number of the
men in the Dominions who were born in Great Britain and are
acquainted with its political and social conditions tends to diminish.
Our fathers, of course, were Britons, must of them of full age before
622 COLOXIAL CONFERENCE, 1907
7-8 HOWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteeath they entered eltVjr Canada, Australia, or South Africa; but our
Ufh**M °^^ generation, growing up under very different conditions from
1907.^'"' those which obtain in this country, has not that knowledge. It is
only natural to expect therefore that they will take somewhat different
of 'per'ma'n-^ roads, and that they not only will be less understood themselves, but
ent Stafl. '^'^^^ understand less what is really meant by many of the objects and
(Mr. procedures which are accepted as quite customary in this country.
Deakm ) J jg jjgt desife to labour the point. I have put it already in a
number of different ways, and could put it in many more. It appears
to me that, from our point of view at all events, a case is made out
for laying before the Secretary of State for the Colonies the sugges-
tion that some scheme for bringing his officers into direct touch with
us should be adopted, and is indeed essential to secure efficiency.
Then there is the further set of circumstances hardly touched
upon by that Eesolution which relates to the Colonial Office. There
remains to be mentioned the new Secretariat which we conceived as
a kind of Imperial office, charged with knowledge of and responsibility
for all the great self-governing Dominions, and concerned with the
oversight of a great variety of Imperial interests. These might be
concentrated in such a Secretariat, instead of being, as they now
are, divided over several departments in this country, to which would
be added other questions hardly yet associated. I do not propose to
do more than recapitulate some of the more familiar. I do' not know,
my Lord, in shaping a departmental Secretariat, how far you will
take this into your consideration; but I hope you will weigh the
necessity of keeping our Dominions in closer touch with external
questions that particularly affect them, even when they may not be
coming forward for immediate treatment? I might mention the
case of Alaska in regard to Canada, and the New Hebrides and
Pacific interests in our case ; and of Delagoa Bay in South Africa.
These have arisen in the past. But it is easy to see, being wise after
the event, how much better qualified the Empire would have been for
consistent action in regard to those matters, if they had been objects
of study before the crisis arose, or if, as and when the crisis arose,
Canada, Australia, or South Africa, or all of them had been kept
informed of the state of those problems and the difficulties that had
to be encountered in settling them. I might develop these possibilities
at great length, but the case appears to me to be plain enough as it
stands. There are many matters still at issue of deep interest to
Canada, for instance, or South Africa, upon which this office possesses
or can obtain much knowledge, which would be of great value to
Canada or South Africa as the case might be. Part of it would be
confidential ; but to have these problems kept in view, and to have
them from time to time presented to us in their new phases, would
save many possible misunderstandings, and enable proposals to be
made. from the Dominion affected which might often be useful to the
Colonial Office.
The next suggestions were summarized a short time ago in an
article by Mr. Drage in the " Fortnightly Review," in which he
pointed out that a study of other colonial systems generally, first of
all, and then in regard to a particular problem or problems might
be of much use. He said that the French in Northern Africa, the
Germans in Eastern Africa, and the United States in the Philippines
were conducting a number of V"ry interesting experiments. Some of
those, it occurs to me, are climatic, and some relate to health. Those,
COLOXIAL COXFERENCE, 1907
623
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
I am aware, the Colonial Office has, to a considerable extent, dealt
with, but others relate to their products and their methods of govern-
ment, upon which valuable information could be found. Foreign
blue books, it is said, are not laid as freely under contribution in
this regard — the French, Germans, and Italians are mtntioned in
particular — as they might well be.
I omitted to mention that among the questions upon which, for
instance, it would be a great gain if from time to time we were kept
in touch with such proposals as were lately made, in regard to im-
portant action in Madeira, and similar tendencies elsewhere, portend-
ing to the acquisition of territory by other Powers. We have lately
been brought face to face with ourselves, with our want of knowledge
of Treaty obligations, of how far we are really bound as Dominions,
and how far we have been committed. I am aware that steps are
being taken to mitigate this. But that experience suggests other
directions in which the same course can be followed with advantage.
Of course, in trade affairs, there are a great variety of directions in
which the article, to whiclf I have referred, points out our needs.
For instance, !Mr. Drage says there is at present no common statistical
method, no common statistical year, no annual report of the trade of
the Empire, no common year book of the trade of the South African
Customs Fnion, nor of the West Indies,
Dr, JAMESON: It is want of knowledge on his part.
Mr. DEAKIN : The article says " There is no common system, as
" there should be, for India, the Straits Settlements and other
" Asiatic Possessions." He mentions the Crown Colonies " apart
" from India, an jimpire of 2,678,330 square miles, a population of
" over 36,000,000, a total trade of 180,000,00OZ. a year," which rather
supports what I said about the burden which must rest upon your
shoulders, — " and a revenue of 19,500,000?. sterling." He does say
" even the statistics we have are difficult to understand, because it is
" not customary to prefix a note explaining the system of valuation,
" of registration, or origin of destination, inclusion and exclusion and
" transit, trade, bullion, and specie, bunker coal, &c," These are
details, but we are all occasionally driven to statistics to the sorrow
of our hearers; and when we must be sure that we are measuring
things which are properly comparable. These questions now go to
the Board of Trade. If there had been a real secretariat it might
have been desirable to consider whether, as imperial questions, they
ought not to be either collected, or at all events collated, there. In-
dustrial issues are matters of deep interest but are not so general as
what are termed Chamber of Commerce questions. Legislation and
its administration affecting commerce within the Empire are matters
which, I venture to hope, the secretariat, even in this office, will take
in charge. British irferchants freely apply for information in regard
to our changes in these matters, and so far as possible we supply it,
but it is desirable that we should all be brought into line with
changes of administration and, still more, of legislation. Copies of
laws, regulations, and full explanations concerning them, might be
forwarded from all the Dominions classified, and made complete, so
as to serve all of us.
There are a great number of other matters which are referred to
in this article, to which I need not call attention; but the general
idea of the secretariat was that it should act very largely as an in-
telligence department for all the self-governing dominions and the
Fifteenth
Dav.
14th May,
1907.
Interchange
of Perman-
ent Staff.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
624 COLONIAL COyFERENCE, 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth mother country in relation to all other matters of common concern.
Day. The number of persons who seek for detailed and exact information
^** 1907 ^'' °^ ^^ Imperial range are not great, but they include the publicists
of every dominion, and through our newspaper press, which freely
Interchange avails itself of any such knowledge, it would filter through to the
ent Sta'fi.' Public. It is laid before Parhament, and affects to a certain extent
(Mr. legislation and administration.
Deakin.) Mr. Haldane's proposal for a General Staff and an exchange of
oflScers is only another illustration of what is proposed here to be
done on the civil side. With regard to officers, Mr. Haldane suggests
that, to some extent at all events, his staff might be described as the
brain of the army; so also we might have in this secretariat the
brain of the empire so far as that operates here and within the seK-
governing Colonies.
The main aim of the secretariat is so well understood that it is
not necessary to repeat and explain its ramifications. Its regular
work will largely consist in giving effect to the resolutions arrived
at in Conference and following up any afftion taken by His Majesty's
Government in connection with such resolutions; but it also lies in
the way of preparing for future Conferences, and responding to
requests from the dominions in order that when they meet their
members may find a fund of information ready to hand.
I have to acknowledge the fulness of the details supplied to us
on this occasion, and believe it exceeds that of any other Conference
which has ever met. In 1887, it is true, we had a great mass of
material laid before us, because that was the first of all the Confer-
ences, but a good deal came too late even then to be of much use. I
regret to say the circumstance? under which these sittings have been
held have prevented me from making anything like the use I ought
to have made, and would have been glad to have made, of the infor-
mation supplied. If I may venture to look forward to future Con-
ferences, in the interest of those who attend them, T think all here
will advise that it is highly desirable that this information should
be in their hands, or as much of it as can he. before they leave their
homes, so that they may have an opportunity on the journey here, or
if possible, before that, of discussing them with their colleagues, in
order that they may do justice to that information, take full advan-
tage of all that it offers, and prove their appreciation of it.
CHAIEMAN: The difficulty we have here is to know what the
subjects are sometimes. This may, to some extent, meet it, but
hitherto we did not know until a very late date what subjects were to
be brought up. Another thing — and I meant to have brought it up
at the Conference — is the difficulty of fixing the actual date. That
postpones final arrangements very much, because we want tlie figures
up to the latest possible date. I wish even now before you separate
you could indicate in some way or consider among yourselves what
• sort of date in the year would be the most convenient for these
Conferences.
Sir WILFRID LAUEIEK: It is difficult to agree, because the
antif>odcs and the other regions vary so greatly in regard to the time
when Parliaments meet.
Mr. DEAKIN: It is rather difficult, but I think we are all be-
coming converts to the conviction that we ought not to meet at a
time when social obligations are numerous. J think we would also
agree that we ought not to meet when the Imperial Parliament is
COLOyiAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
625
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
sitting. To do .<o imposes an unfair strain on Ministers of depart-
ments, and, moreover, prejudices to some extent o\ir proceedings here.
Do what we will, or say what we will, we are interpreted as if we had
some relation to political proceedings in this country. In addition
to that the comments in the House of Commons and House of Lords
here suggest that the proceedings of the Conference are being watched
with somewhat similar ideas. It would be much better for both of us
that when any future Conference is held here it should be at a time
when Parliament is not sitting, when Ministers are disengaged, when
departments are free, and social obligations are not enforced.
CHAIRMAN : It is rather difficult to say when Parliament will
not be sitting, and, as to saying when a Minister is disengaged, I
decline altogether.
Mr. DEAKIX : All Ministers are in the same position; it is
with the greatest diflBculty; one can tear oneself away from one's
responsibilities. When any criticisms of mine of the Colonial Office
are being read it should be remembered that I have admitted how
precisely the same criticisms apply not only to our own departments,
but to ourselves as politicians. We are just as absorbed in our own
affairs on that side of the world as you here are in yours. The great
bulk of our affairs do not interest or attract you, and will not be
brought before you, just as the great bulk of your affairs in this
country have but a secondary interest for us. Our large common
ground is admitted, but it is because we become so absorbed in local
matters which have but a general relation to our common btisiness
that we so often fail to understand each other. I say nothing by way
of criticism of the want of knowledge here that does not apply to
ourselves. I make no distinction whatever, though of course we are
better informed as to your politics than you are as to ours.
CHAIRMAN: The difficulty about the date is really between
Canada and Australia. I do not know how to bring them together.
Mr. DEAKIN : What is the time of year when the Imperial Par-
liament is not sitting?
CHAIRMAN : Last year it sat 10 months out of 12. It was only
up in August and September.
Sir WILFRID LAUEIER: I am afraid there are a number of
difficulties that cannot be overcome; our Parliament commences to
sit in November, and sits during December and January.
Mr. DEAKIN : December and January are suggested ; it is a
very unpleasant time to arrive, but perhaps it would be free; appar-
ently you are engaged at that time.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER : Yes, the best time would be what is
summer here, June and July.
^[r. DEAKIN : That is when our Parliaments are in full swing.
Sir WILFRID LAFRIER: You must put somebody to incon-
venience whenever these Conferences are to take place.
CHAIRMAN : That is the difficulty.
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes, and it requires to be settled. That is one of
the matters which, if the new Secretariat takes it in hand, they
would be much better able to deal with than we are. Although this
new Secretariat is to remain under the Colonial Office, may I hope
that it is to fulfil one of the functions of the Imperial Secretariat,
58-^0
Fifteenth
Daj.
14th May,
1907.
Interchange
of Perman-
ent Stafi.
(Mr.
Deakin.)
626 COLOXIAL COyFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth thnt of being a free channel of communication between the different
14th *May, Dominions and the United Kingdom on any matters which may be
1907. ' proposed by them or proi>er for inquiry and investigation, instead of
J Z~ sending direct to each other, as of course we do now. At all events,
of Perman- copies of all these communications should be registered in this
ent Staff. Secretariat, in order that we may be kept in touch with them. A
(Mr. number of other matters may be taken up in a tentative wav, whether
JJeakin.) ,i , , , i • i • ,-,,„"
tney are pursued or not. as to which it seems desirable for any one
of the Dominions to obtain the opinions of the other Dominions or of
His Majesty's Government. Such occasions might not be frequent,
but if the policy of the open door prevail it ought to encourage
further Imperial co-operation.
I have trespassed quite enough on your patience or the patience
of my colleagues, but this matter is of the gravest importance to us,
and I cannot attempt to deal with it as it deserves in these last
moments of the Conference. Every increase in the harmony that
obtains between us and goes to establish the thorough understanding
which we desire to see maintained between His Majesty's Government
and our Governments is most valuable. We get that understanding
almost wholly through the Colonial Office if we get it at all, Finally,
any proposals we make for bringing this office into closer touch with
ourselves are made in the common interest, not for merely selfish
ends, but in the hope and belief, that it is possible to enable this vast
Empire, dissevered by great distances, with its scattered populations
absorbed in their own immediate interests and pursuits, to see all its
members brought into line for closer co-operation with each other;
this will be one means of accomplishing that great and most admir-
able end.
CHAIRMAN : I do not propose to follow Mr. Deakin through his
very interesting statement, which he has kindly put more as an invi-
tation to me to consider than anything else. There are one or two
remarks I would like to make to clear up, as far as I can, any mis-
understanding of my position. In the first place I am not quite sure
I entirely follow yet the system of appointments which Mr. Deakin
described as obtaining in Australia. But, of course, as far as this
office is concerned, it is not a separate organisation all by itself; it is
a part of the general Civil Service of the country, a civil service
of which we are extremely proud. It is recruited from the Civil
Service; the Civil Service itself being a competition open to men of
high ability, and and among them. if I may say so, open to men from the
Colonies too, if they choose to come forward. I should supi>oso that
Rhodes' scholars might possibly come forward in the future, and
increase the number of Colonials we may have in the Civil Service.
That being the method in which this office is recruited and staffed, I
fancy that it would be, perhaps, a little difficult to arrange exchanges
oil equal footings. I onl.v think it might be so. At any rate, you
must remember that this office, when you come to it apart from the
Civil Service, is one with a very intricate organisation. We have,
as ^fr. Deakin has said, colonies in all parts of the world, and in all
stages of development, and we have, therefore, to arrange a very com-
plicated division of duties within the office. Hitherto the main
scheme of the office was geographical. In the obligation which 1 under-
took at the begnning of those sittings I practically accepted the posi-
tion that, in future, at any rate, as far as the responsible governing
COLONIAL COyFEREXCE, 1907 627
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Coloiufs iirc coucpnicd, we depart from the geographical division and Fifteenth
take the rcspmisiblv governed Colonies under one branch. That, 1 ^P^^'
venture to tliink, may make even a fresh difficulty in the question of jgQ^
delegation as between offices and different parts of the world. It
seems to me impossible for me to hold out any very large expectation Interchange
\iT , Til- 1 1 ■ .-1 ot Ferman-
in that respect. \Ve have, I believe, already ou occasions found oppor- ent StaS.
tunities of sending gentlemen to the Colonies for the occasional (Chairman.)
services alluded to. That may occur again. But any large delegation,
unless it was possible to arrange regular exchanges — and even perhaps
in that case — must mean some increase in staff, which I am not at all
sure it would be possible for me to contemplate, and certainly I could
not contemplate it without consulting those in charge of the finances.
I should like also to point out with regard to services in the respon-
sibly governed Colonies that, without in any way demurring to the
view which you expressed of the value of knowledge of localities and
the conditions of the people and so on, at the same time as far as
this office is concerned we deal in no way with the local administra-
tion. That is your own affair; you are autonomous in every respect,
and it is the last thing you would wish us to interfere with. There-
fore, the business which actually comes here from you depends more
upon principles than upon local characteristics. I am not quite' sure,
I admit, that it is absolutely necessary for the performance of these
duties that the men who are in charge of them should journey over
the world — because they would have to journey over the world —
as it is no use in a secretariat of this kind, their taking one colony
only; they must exchange from one colony to another in order to
qualify themselves in all. Indeed, I rather think that if you wish to
push that principle to an effective point you ought to go a little
higher and I am not quite sure that the people who, according to
your principle, ought to exchange offices, would not be the Ministers.
I do not say that I would exchange posts with my friend on the left;
but, even there I might give you an instance to show how the thing
actually works. There is one office in a dominion beyond the seas
which is continually filled by politicians coming from politeal life in
this country, and that is the Vice-Eoyalty of India; but it is curious
that no officer of Viceroy of India has ever sat in the office on the
other side of this quadrangle. I do not say it with any degree of
complaint at all, and I can see reasons for it, but at the same time
it is an illustration that in dealing with certain questions it is not
absolutely necessary for a man to be chosen because of his knowledge
of the place from which those questions come.
ilr. DEAKIX: I think we all feel— at all events, I feel, an
immense gain from a Conference of this kind, simply because coming
to this country even for so short a time we do get more in touch with
political men and events about which we are reading everj- week of
our lives. It is part of my duty and part of iny interest to follow
British politics and British affairs, but I have never come here (each
of the three times) without getting a great deal of fresh light and
removing a certain number of misunderstandings, with which my
reading has left me. I feel the many advantages of such visits. I
do not wish to occupy the position of a British Minister, but do
realise that presence at these Conferences teaches me a great deal
about this country which careful study has not brought me abreast
of in Australia.
628 . COLOXIAL COXFEREXCE. 1907
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Fifteenth CHAIRMAJST : I agree, I was putting the poiut of the Minister
Uth^May, essentially, because that is an exchange from a Ministerial position
Day. in this Office to a Ministerial position in the Colonies. But as to
T . r~ these Conferences and opportunities of intercourse, I think I said on
Intercnange , ■ \ ^ ■, , ■,
of Perman- more than one occasion i valued them extremely.
ent Staff. I only want to say this word more about the secretariat. I hope
_*'^T- , the Conference will be disposed to give me a little both of time and
confidence in this matter. I have not undertaken this lightly, and T
do not think it is a very light task I have unedrtaken. Therefore,
it is that I do not wish to make any direct promises with regard to
the subjects which Mr. Deakin has put before us. What I will do is,
I will bear those things in mind, and I hope to make an organisation
such as will at any rate decrease the chances of friction between this
office and the Colonies.
I hope, from what Mr. Deakin has said, that I shall be met fully
in that respect from the other side, because I think he has admitted
not only to-day, but on other occasions, that he has found this office
both capable and willing to meet the calls made upon it. I do think
myself that if that was clearly, distinctly, and emphatically stated to
others beyond the seas by men who could speak with the authority
which he can. nothing would more tend to diminish frictvon and
prevent a feeling of vexatious loss or anything of that kind than that
taking place. We must "look to you, Mr. Dealvin, and to you fellow
leaders across the seas to represent this Office and this Government as
I think you really understand and believe it to be, as one thoroughly
determined to do justice and to study, to secure, and protect the inter-
ests of those under its charge by every means which it is in our ,
power to use. We have Imperial duties, and Imperial duties some-
times may make it less easy to show the entire sympathy which we
should desire; but I think you will accept it from me that those
occasions never come to us without our being determined to perform
the duties they impose upon us with every intention to secure the
interests of our fellow subjects across the seas. I hope you will
excuse mj' having made that observation.
Mr. DEAKIN: If I had the Hansard of my Parliament here I
could show you many occasions on which I have defended the action
of this Office and this Government, in some cases when I did not at
all agree with it. I doubt if you will find an instance on which I
have criticised this Office there with the frankness I have shown here.
THANKS TO THE EAEL OF ELGIN.
Sir WILFRID LAl'RIER: I have to propose a resolution. It is
in recognition of the services rendered to us by Lord Elgin as Chair-
man, and I will move it : " The members of this Conference, rcpre-
'"senting the self-governing Colonies, desire, before they separate,
" to convey to Lord Elgin their warm and sincere appreciation of the
" manner in which he has presided over their deliberations, as well
'" as of the many courtesies which they have received from him; tlioy
" desire also to put on record the deep sense of gratitude which they
"feel for the generous ho^pitality which has been extended to them
" by the Government and people of the United Kindom."
Mr. DEAKIN: I have very great pleasure in seconding that.
COLOMAL CONFEREyCE, 1907 629
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 58
Sir JOSEPH WAED : Lord Elgin, I wish to say I very heartily Fifteenth
endorse tlie sentiments contained in the resolution, and I want to Day.
express my personal appreciation of the courtesy extended to me as 1907 ^'
the representattivo of the Colony of New Zealand, both by yourself
and your colleagues at this table, and the whole of your staff, and I xT'^^S'^^, *°.
hope I may have the opportunity in the future of seeing you all Elgin,
either out in New Zealand or else here. I go away with very great (Mr.
regret from London, and that regret has been deepened by the Deakin.)
boundless hospitality and kindness which has been extended to me on
all sides, which has made a great impression on my mind as showing
the way in which the people of Old England treat their sons from the
Colonies.
CHAIRMAN : I am much obliged. Sir Joseph Ward, for what
you have said, and to Sir Wilfrid Laurier for the motion he has put.
I should just like to say this : that I have had the ambition through-
out this Conference of endeavouring to make the Conference work
as I think it should work. I ventured to point out at the beginning
of the Conference that we had laid before you papers, not merely
Colonial Office papers, but papers prepared by all departments of His
Majesty's Government. We have done more than that. We have
had representatives of His Majesty's Government present at this
Conference, and I find that no less than 12 have been present and
taken part in the deliberations. Of course, I may take this credit to
myself, that I had to arrange before the Conference met, and it
was satisfactory to me to find that it was in accordance with the first
resolution which this Conference passed, namely, that what they
desired was that these Conferences should be conferences between
Governments and Governments. That is the principle on which I
endeavoured to arrange the Conference, and in which I think it has
been carried out. Of course it does, in a sense, mean that the Secre-
tary for the Colonies, if he is sitting in the chair, has not necessarily
to argue the different points that come before the Conference. I do
not know that he ever did do so. But at any rate, I have endeavoured
to study the convenience of the members of the Conference, and I
am very grateful to those who have said that they have found that I
have done so. Somebody has to do that. I think the Secretary of
State for the Colonies, under all the circumstances, is the proper
person to do it; and I hope therefore that (looking into the history
of these conferences) we may never in the future hear anything — I
do not say in this room, but anywhere — of any question of a dicta-
torial Secretary of State for the Colonies who usurps the functions
of the Government with which the representatives of the Colonies
desire to confer.
I thanli you very much for the kindness with which you have
spoken of myself.
Mr. DEAKIN : Lord Elgin, I cannot imagine th.; sevei'est critic
of the proceedings of this Conference levelling any charge of dicta-
torial aggressiveness against you. I have no charge to make, except
that of your having placed yourself and the whole of the resources
of your office absolutely at the disposal of the representatives of the
Colonies in the most considerate manner.
CHAIRMAN : I have only again to say good-bye to the members
of the Conference and to express my grateful thanks to them for their
uniform kindness to me during the proceedings.
The Conference then concluded.
7-8 EDWARD VII.
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
A. 1908
REPORT
OF THE
EOYAL COMMISSIOX
ox THE
GRAIN TRADE OF CANADA
1906
PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT
OTTAWA
PRTXTED BY S. E. DAWSON', PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST
EXCELLENT MA.TESTY
1908
[No. .59—1908]
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59 A. 1908
KEroir
I iiM mw IIP
1906
To the Riijht Jloiwurable Sir Albeii Henri/ George, Earl Grey, Viscount Hawick, Baron
Grei/ of Hotcick, in the Counii/ of Xorthuniherland, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom
and a Baronet, Knight Grand Cross of The Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael
and Saint George, etc., etc.. Governor General of Canada, in Council.
We, His Majesty's Commissioners, appointed by Commission, dated Jul)' 26, A.D.
1906, to inquire into matters connected with the grain trade of Canada, beg leave to submit
our report. The terms of reference, as contained in the order in councU of July 19, 1906,
are as follows: —
'To take into consideration all or any matters connected with the Grain Inspection
.\ct and the Manitoba Grain Act; and in connection therewith shall have power to Wsit
the grain growers, the elevators all over the wheat-growing region, the methods of handling
the grain at the various stations, farmers' elevators, as well as companies' elevators, the
distribution of cars, methods of the grain dealers in Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal, and
the system of government inspection and collection of fees, selection of grades and the
methods of handling the grain at Fort William and Port Arthur, at the lake ports at Montreal,
St. .John and Halifax, and also the conditions existing as to the manner of handling the
grain upon its arrival in England.'
We met in the city of Winnipeg, on August 23, 1906, for the purpose of considering
the terms of the reference and determining upon our plans and procedure. As the farmers
were in tlie midst of harvesting, we decided to leave the investigation of matters in the
country until a more convenient time, and to consider first only those matters pertaining
to the grain trade in Winnipeg and to the eastward.
We held our first ])ul)lic sitting in the city of Winnipeg, on .\ugust 29, 1906, and inquired
into the manner of handling grain after its arrival in Winnipeg. This included an investi-
gation into the operations of elevators in Winnipeg, the grain inspection department and
the system of marketing grain to the eastward.
Proceeding to Fort William and Port .\rthur, we inquired into the operation and status
of the terminal elevators there, and then followed the course of the grain to the Georgian
Bay and Lake Huron elevators, investigating the system of handling, binning, storing and
weighing of the grain.
59—2^
i ROYAL COMillSSIOX O.Y TEE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Sittings were held in Toronto, Kingston and Montreal, and after considering the mar-
keting and handling of grain at those points, we returned to Winnipeg i-ia Buffalo, Port
Huron, Chicago, Minneapolis and Duluth, having conferences at those places with inspec-
tors, weighmasters, elevator operators and other persons in the grain trade, for the purpose
of comparing our system of handling grain with the systems in vogue in the United States.
We wish here to acknowledge the many courtesies extended to us in these cities and to
express our appreciation of the assistance afforded us.
During our eastern tour, we were in communication with the Grain Growers' Associa-
tions of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta with reference to places and dates of meetings
in those pro-i-inces. The meetings were advertised through the public press, by circulars,
and through the Grain Growers' Associations.
Between November .5 and November 19 we held sittings in Portage la Prairie, Brandon,
Souris, Cypress River, Carman, Manitou and Deloraine, and returned to Winnipeg at
the request of the Grain Growers' Associations of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, to hear
evidence they wished to produce at that time relative to an alleged combine in restraint
of trade of the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange and the North West Grain Dealers'
Association. The Grain Growers' Associations requested that they be permitted to retain
counsel to appear on their behalf. This permission was granted, and a similar privilege
was accorded to the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange and the North West Grain
Dealers" Association.
The hearing of this evidence occupied from Tuesday, November 20. to Saturday,
November 25, and owing to appointments in the country already made, we left the taking
of further evidence until our general investigation into the methods of the grain dealers,
the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange and the North West Grain Dealers' Associa-
tion, which we purposed taking up on the completion of our sittings in the country.
On Monday, November 27, we continued our itinerary in the country, and held sittings
in Manitoba at Hamiota, Neepawa and Dauphin, and in Alberta at Lacombe, Edmonton,
Calgary, Claresholme, Macleod and Pincher Creek. At the special request of the Alberta
producers, we went to Vancouver to in(|uirp into the possibilities of development of a trade
westward for Alberta grain, and the advisability of building a terminal elevator at Vancouver.
After adjourning over the Christmas and New Year's holidays, we held sittings in
Saskatchewan at Moosomin, Indian Head, Regina, ISIoosejaw and Weyburn. We had
intended holding sittings in Saskatoon and Prince Albert, but owing to the snow blockade
on the railways, it was impossible for us to reach these places, and we returned to Winnipeg,
but wrote asking that evidence be forwarded to us in the form of affidavits.
On our return to Winnipeg, we comjileted our investigation into the methods of the
grain dealers, the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange and the North West Grain
Dealers' Association.
Recognizing the impossibility of completing our investigation and submitting a ro])ort
before the closing of the last session of Parliament, we adjourned earl}' in February until
May before proceeding with our investigation on the eastern seaboard and in Great Britain.
On May 14 we met in Ottawa, and thence proceeded to New York, Boston and Portland.
At these points we investigated the handling of Canadian grain under Canadian inspection,
and also under seaboard inspection. We then proceeded to St. John and Halifax, and
inquired into the handling of grain through the elevators of the Canadian Pacific Railway
and the Intercolonial liailway. We sailed from Quebec for Liverpool on May 31.
In Great Britain we visited the following cities in the order named, and held conferences
with the members of the Corn Trade Associations and millers: Liverpool, Loiulon, Bristol,
Glasgow, E<linburgh, I^-ith, Hull, Manchester, Duljlin, Belfast and Exeter.
The Corn Trade Associations, at our request, had been for several months previous
to our visit, collecting type samples of cargo arrivals of Canadian grain of the crops of 1905-6
and 1906-7. These samples, which had l)cen officially drawn and .sealed, we examined
t-arefully and compared with type and standanl samples which we had taken with us, and
also compared them with Canadian standard samples sent direct from the chief inspector's
office in Winnipeg lo the secretaries of the Corn Trade .Associations. .\l all these places
ORAIX TRADE OF CANADA 5
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
we visited the markets where the grain was exhibited for sale, and had an opportunity of
seeing the merchants' samples from all grain-exporting countries.
On our arrival in London we called upon the Canadian High Commissioner, Lord
Strathcona, and received valuable assistance from him in the prosecution of our inquiry.
We completed our work in (ireat Britain and Ireland at the Convention of the National
Association of British and Irish Millers at Exeter, and adjo\irned to meet in Winnipeg, on
August 21), for the compiling of our report. At everv- point we visited in Great Britain
we were received very kindly by the members of the trade, and valuable assistance was given
to us in the prosecution of our inquiry.
We do not propose to take up the matters to be dealt with in the order of our itinerary,
but rather to follow the grain from its initial marketing to its ultimate destination.
Among the matters brought to our attention were: Improper weighing at country
elevators; excessive dockage taken; returning of screenings to farmers at country elevators,
and the allowance for screenings* at terminals: special binning; car distribution; car short-
age; complaints against the Inspection Department; the operation of elevators in AMnnipeg,
Fort William, Port .\rthur and eastern ports; complaints regarding the inspection of grain
at Montreal; complaints regarding the completion of contract in track wheat and consigned
wheat; com])laint that prices paid in the countn,- were too low, and the spread between
street and track prices too great.
Before proceeding to the consideration of these matters and grievances, we wish to refer
briefly to the general grading system, which is the foundation of the grain trade of Canada.
After inquiring carefully into the manner of doing business in this country, the United Sfates-
and in Great Britain, and considering the methods under which grain imported from other
countries is handled and sold on the British market, we have come to the conclusion that
the grading .system is the most suitable to our requirements. We think also it would be
very unwise to alter the grades established, but owing to the ever increasing production of
certain types of grain in the newer pro\-inces, we suggest some new grades. These will be
dealt with later in the report.
Weighing at Country Elevators.
A considerable numljer of complaints were laid before us of improper weighing at
country elevators, and as a remedy it was suggested that government weigh-scales be installed
at each buving point throughout the countrj'. Feeling satisfied many of these complaints
were well founded we have given this matter our serious consideration, and have come to
the conclusion that any scheme of public or government weights would be impracticable.
We cannot suggest any plan which will lie just as Ijetween the elevator and the farmer to
insure that the farmer will receive his proper weight, other than the rights which are now
given him in the Grain Act, and the protection he has under the law as to weights and
measures. We think, however, when the warehouse commissioner has investigated a com-
plaint, as provided for in section .37 of the Grain Act, and found the complaint and charge
therein contained, or any part thereof, true, he should be given power to direct the owner
of such elevator to make proper redress to the person injured, and to order the discharge
of the offending operator. (See Appendix A, Amendment No. 12.)
Dockage.
Many of the producers market grain without being cleaned on the farm, and when
weighed at the country elevator an amount is taken off the gross weight to allow for cleaning
of the grain to the grade at which it is sold by the farmer to the elevator operator. Besides
this dockage it is customary to take off the odd pound to the bushel and half bushel in
weighing the wagon loads, for the protection of the elevator in handling the grain. Con-
siderable testimony was given before us, generally, as to the dockage taken being excessive,
but it was difficult to procure direct and conclusive evidence. We had ewdence and state-
ments presented to us by the elevator companies in Winnipeg, showing their losses and gains
6" ROYAL COMMISSIOX OX THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
in both weights and grades. They contend that weights and grades cannot be separate .
when considering the question of dockage, because at times they give a higli grade price
and take heavy dockage, while at other times they give a low grade price and take a light
dockage. In the first case they at times sell the grain at the gross weight without dockage
at a rejected grade price, and in the second case they sell the grain at a regular grade price
with the dockage assessed by the inspector to clean it to grade. With the large
quantity bought and sold in this way, which is on the increase, it is impossible from these
statements and the evidence to arrive at the actual overage or shortage in the country
elevator. In this connection, and in connection with our remarks on the grading system, we
wish to draw attention to the fact that the jjercentage of grain inspected rejected for dirt in
the crop of 1905 was four per cent, and in the crop of 1906 seven per cent, an increase of
three per cent. The statements submitted by the elevator companies show, in almost everv
case, a surplus in weight but a loss in grades, as explained in the foregoing paragraph, and
show in the majority of cases a net loss to the company in weights and grades at the purchase
price. The statements of the elevator comjianies include shrinkage and leakage in transit
from the country elevators to the terminals, and the sixty pounds per car that is deducted
from every car going into the terminal elevators for the protection of the terminals in handling,
make it still more difficult to arrive at a fair comparison. We cannot suggest any
further proteciion to the farmer in marketing his grain at the country elevator than he has
in section 30 of The Manitoba Grain Act, and our amendments in Ajipendix \.
Dlspositiox of Screeni.vgs.
In considering the question of the disposition of screenings from the grain as delivered
from the farms, we find that at such elevators where cleaning nuichines are installed many
of the farmers are in the habit of taking home screenings cleaned from their own grain,
and where the grain is shipped in its unclean state to Fort William and Port Arthur the
screenings that are taken out there seem to be disposed of without any regard to the ilistrict
to which they are shipped. Generally we find great carelessness exhibited in the handling
of foul seeds, both in the screenings and the grain, and we wish to draw attention to the
tremendous increase in the quantity of foul weeds being grown in the provinces of the west,
and the possibihty of spreading this growth to Ontario. From Fort William and Port
Arthur, we find that screenings (made up largely of domestic grain screenings, but containing
a large quantity of foul seeds) are shipped to difl'erent points in Ontario. The question of
the disposition of these seeds of course is in the hands of the provincial governments, and
we presume, therefore, that we are not in a position to recommend any rcgul,\tions controlling
the disposition of same, but we think it a matter that .should \x- dcilt with vigorously. Any
legi.slation with regard to the handling or disposition of .screenings should be in the direction
of discouraging the growth of weeds upon the farm, and, therefore, we do not feel inclined
to suggest anything in the line of rc(|iicsls made of us iu the country to have the elevators
at Fort William and Port .\rlluir return to the shippers of grain value for noxious weed
screenings taken from their grain in the ordinary course of cleaning, but we have deemed
it wise to recommend com])ensating the ship])er for domestic grain screenings.
We are .suggesting amendments providing for the assessing of the percentage of dirt
in all grain passing through the in.spection department, and in one of these suggested amend-
ments wc are making provision for marking upon the inspection certificate the percentage
of domestic grain contained in the cars inspecteil, and in another amendment for the allow-
ance of the value of said grain by the terminal elevators to the shipper. (See Apjiendix
A No. 2 and Appendix B No. 10.)
Speci.vi. Hinni.vo.
We have had complaints of lo.ss by the farmers owing to the alleged substitution of
and mixing grains with that which was special binned. To prevent this practice, we are
suggesting an atnendment providing for the keeping of samples of all such special binned
grain. (See Appendix .\ No. 7, 34, 4 A and R.)
(IRAIN TRADE OF CA\A1)A. 7
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
Interior Storage.
As ii sufjgestod relief to the car sliorlage in the country, a proposition was made by
the Grain Growers' Associations and individual farmers that the government should build
and operate at certain convenient ])oints, large interior storage elevators liaving facilities
similar to those in the terminal elevators at Fort William, so that the grain might be shipped
to them from shipjiing points throughout the country in the cars that were available and by
reason of the fact thai the haul would be very short, the cars could return rpiicklv to the
country again for another load, in this way moving from two to four limes tlie amount of
grain from the country shipping point that they would if going on the long haul direct to
Fort William. Another argument advanced in favour of these elevators was the fact that
fanners and others shipping to them would get official weights and grades and lie able to
sell in the elevator or raise money on the grain.
We believe that this plan is not practicable for the following reasons: — ■
1. It would entail extra expense of handling, the payment of stop-over charges to the
railwaj's, and the expense of inspectors and weighnien.
2. Extra loss to the grain in handling and re-handling.
3. These elevators must of neees.sity l)e very substantial and costly, and when the time
comes that the railways are in a position to supply sufficient cars to carry a reasonable
proportion of each season's crop, the.se interior storage elevators would be useless.
4. In evidence received from the grain merchants and elevator operators, they claimed
they would not store grain in these interior houses because it would not be available for
market requirements, and on the opening of navigation, it would still have to be forwarded
to the head of the lakes.
5. But the great objection to tliis scheme is the difficulty of getting shippers to send
their grain to these elevators. For them to be of any value the grain would have to I^e kept
in store until at least the first of April, otherwise they would not be any relief to the car
situation. To obtain supplies for these elevators, it would be necessary to take an arbitrary
course with the .shippers of grain and compel them to ship to the interior storage elevators.
Any ship])er of grain who would get a car through the order book in the usual course, would
naturally waiit to ship his grain to Fort Wilham, so that he might sell it at track price of
the day, which, in ordinary years, would be from three to five cents a bushel more than it
would be worth in the interior .storage elevator.
Fl.vg Statio.ns.
Wc find that a large number of the grain shi|iping points in Manitoba, Saskatchewan
and Alberta are not supplied with agents to receive slii|)ments, seal the cars and receipt
bills of lading for them. In our opinion many of these ]ioints ship a sufficient amount of
grain to warrant the railroads in placing an agent or some suitable person at these points
at least during the busy season. The shippers are inconvenienced by the lack of any one
in authority, and we suggest that at all places where over fifty thousand bushels of grain
are shipped, the railroads should appoint some suitable person from Septemlier 15 to
January 15 as per amendment. (See Appendix A No. 20.)
Tr.\ck Prices and Street Price.s.
We find that in buying grain in the country there are two prices paid, the first is that
which is paid the farmer after the grain is loaded on the car, settlement beuig made upon
Winnipeg inspection and Fort William weights. This price is termed 'track price,' and is
based upon the spot cash price of grain at Fort William. The other is that which is paid
the fanner load by load as he delivers it into the country elevator, settlement being made
on the elevator operator's grading, weights and dockage. This price is called 'street price,'
and is based largely upon the possibility of getting grain shipped forward to Fort William.
W'here there is no car shortage, the price is based upon the Fort William cash price, less
8 ROTAL C0MMISSI02V OX THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
the cost of handling through the country elevator. When there is a car shortage the street
price is based upon the quotation for future delivery as arrived at in the Winnipeg market,
such future deUverj- price being based upon the price of the month in which, in the judgment
of the elevator company, the grain can be got forward. The farmer complains verj' strongly
of the spread between street and track prices and points to the fact that there is no local
competitive bidding, but a uniformity in price for either street or track grain, and takes
this as e\idence of a combine amongst the grain dealers in Winnipeg. We wish to point
out that there is practically no relation between street price and track price in time of a car
shortage, from the fact that track price is paid only for grain after it is loaded on the car,
when it then becomes spot or cash grain, while the street price, owing to the car shortage,
is of necessity based on the price for future deliverA' allowing for all carrving charges and
expenses until cars are available. We find the spread between these two prices is largely
dependent upon the car supply. Where there is an ample supply of cars, the spread is
reduced to the cost of handling the grain by the elevator plus a profit, but at stations where
there is a very poor supply of cars, we find this spread runs up as high as eight and nine
cents per bushel. We will further discuss these prices under the head 'The Winnipeg
Grain and Produce Exchange and The North West Grain Dealers' Association.'
Car Shortage axd Car Distribution.
As our inquiry- in the country proceeded, it became apparent that the troubles that
the farmers complained of, and also those complained of by the elevator companies, could
be overcome by a plentiful supply of cars. A farmer dissatisfied with selling or shipping
his grain through a country elevator could, with a plentiful supply of cars, load and ship
direct to Fort William. Furthermore, as we have already explained, with a plentiful supply
of cars, an elevator operator would be able to pay the farmer a higher price for the grain
sold on the street.
In a time of car shortage to be able to get grain on the track is a considerable advant-
age to the sliip])er. To show the value of cars during the shipping season when there is a
car shortage, a thousand bushels of wheat in a car is worth to a farmer or an elevator operator
from forty to eighty dollars more than the value of the same quantity of wheat calculated at
the street price.
Realizing the importance of the relation of the car supply to the grain trade we made
an interim report last December as follows: —
'To His Excellency
' The Governor General in Council.
'His Majesty's Commissioners appointed to investigate the Grain Trade of Canada,
beg to make an interim report respecting one condition which is very seriously affecting the
trade at the present time.
'We find after careful inquir\' that the railway conqjanies have not been supplying
sufficient cars to move a reasonable portion of the western crop before the close of navigation
on the Great Lakes this season, nor for the past few years, and this condition does not appear
to be inqiroving, but on the contrary is becoming more aggravated from year to year.
'We find that last year 3'-', 141 carloads of grain were inspected during the months of
SeptenilRT, Octoijcr and XoveinlxT, 11)1)5, and for the same period in lOOO only 31,486 cars,
notwithstanding the fact that the harvest of 1900 was at least two weeks earlier than in 1905.
We also find that there has been a most decided car shortage this year right from the com-
mencement of the sea-son, and the shortage was very acute l)efore any considerable quantities
of coal for don\estic purposes commenced to t>e moved, so that we are of the opinion that the
contention of the railway companies to the effect that they were obliged to cope with excep-
tional conditions in the coal trade does not explain the shortage of cars in the grain trade
this year.
ailAIX TRADE OF CANADA 9
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
'AVe find that the price paid for trrain to the producer varies in the country markets to a
considoraliK; exieni, according to tlie car supply at point of purchase. The car shortage lias
thus been the source of a heavy loss to the grain producers in Western Canada tliis year, and
a serious detriment to the trade generally.
'We would, therefore, respectfully recommend that some steps be taken to have the
supply of ears on the railways greatly increased at as early a date as possible, as, in our
opinion, the very ra])id development of the grain growing industry in Western Canada will
result in the car shortage becoming more and more ])ronounced unless some steps be taken
at once to relieve the present condition and to anticipate the production of the vast areas
of new lands that are being rapidly brought under cultivation.
'We further find that the cars that are being supplied are not being distributed equitably
among the various country points, the points having competing railway lines receiving as
a rule an adequate supply, while the points having only one line of railway, which points are
very much in majority, recei\e a very inadequate supply. This state of affairs results in
the farmer living near a competing railway point receiving several cents per bushel more for
his grain than one obliged to market his product at a non-competing point, having the same
freight rate.
'We would, therefore, respectfully recommend legislation providing for reciprocal
demurrage (that is to say, that after a reasonable time from the ordering of a car, the rail-
ways he eh.\rgeable with demurrage imtil the car \k furnished) and such other legislation as
will ensure an equitable distribution of cars.
'All of which is respectfully submitted.
'Dated at Vancouver, B.C., this 21st day of December, 1906.'
In our interim report we say we find that the cars are not being distributed equitably
among the various country points. To overcome this we would suggest an amendment to
The Manitoba Grain Act, giving the warehouse commissioner power to direct the railways
to make a more equitable distribution where he finds it necessary. (See Appendix A, Amend-
ment No. 23.)
Order Book.
At many stations the provisions of The ^Manitoba Grain Act for the distribution of ears
through the order book have been grossly violated to the prejudice of both farmers and
elevators, in the placing of fictitious names upon the order book, and the transferring of
rights in cars from one individual to another. To overcome these violations we propose
.amendments to the Act providing for the deposit with the railway agent of a fee of two dollars
with every application for a car, either through the shipper himself or his qualified agent.
We provide for the filling in of such order book by the agent himself in ink, and the issuing
of a receipt to the applicant or his agent for the fee of two dollars paid. (See Appendix A,
No. 15, IG and IS Amendments to section 58, subsection 2a, the second and third paragraphs
of subsection 4 and subsection 9.)
To carry out these provisions we suggest that the warehouse commissioner direct the
railways to use an order book of the form shown in Appendix D.
We also suggest provisions for the summary conviction liefore a justice of the peace,
of any party or parties who violate the provisions of the Act covering the ordering of cars
through the car order book, and we indicate what are violations of the Act. (See Appendix
A No. 17, subsection 5 of section 58.)
We find that after the close of navigation during the winter season there are a number
of cars sliipped all rail from the country direct to the St. John elevators, and as a number of
the.se cars are shipped by farmers who have made sale upon the basis of Fort William out-
turns there is a very serious delay and cause of complaint owing to the time it takes for the
car to reach St. John, the pos.sible heavy leakage in transit, and the fact that the cars are
not weighed out by a government weighmaster at St. John. There are no proper cleaning
facilities at the port of St. John, and we found at that elevator, regular grade grain carry
10 ROYAL COMMISSIOy O.V THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ing dockage was binned with regular grade cleaned grain, which is contrary to the provisions
of the Grain Inspection Act. To overcome this we suggest that no grain shall leave the
Manitoba Inspection Division without being officially weighed, and cleaned, if necessary,
at a public terminal elevator. (See Appendix A, No. 2-1.)
We find tliat there is no pro^^sion for the protection of a farmer in case of the cash
purchase ticket issued to him by an elevator operator for a load or loads of wheat being
dishonoured by the paving agent. We therefore suggest an amendment to the Grain Act
calling for the exchange of his cash purchase ticket for a storage ticket in case of failure to
redeem such cash purchase ticket within twentv-four hours after it is issued. (See Appendix
A, No. 7.)
It is the custom of some country elevator operators to issue one cash purchase ticket
or storage receipt for several loads of grain instead of issuing a separate ticket or receipt for
each individual load, wliich seems to be the intention of the Act at present. This custom
leads to many disputes between the seller and the buyer of grain. We would suggest, there-
fore, making it compulsory for the country elevator operator to issue a cash ticket or storage
receipt for each and everv load of grain as received bv him at his elevator. (See Appendix
A, No. 7.) ■
Referring to the pri\'ilege of the elevator operator to ship stored or special binned grain
to a terminal elevator, we find that at the present time the elevator operator is not required
to give notice to the owner of the grain until after the shipment. This in many cases proves
a hardshijj to the owner, and we would suggest, therefore, that notice be given before such
shipment. (See Appendix A. No. 8.)
We had several complaints in the country that elevator companies, after receiving
instructions from the owner to ship stored or special binned grain, shipped such grain in
the name of the elevator company and retained the bill of lading, and in some cases disposed
of the grain. The excuse for this was that the owner of the grain had not surrendered his
storage receipts and paid all charges that had accrued against the grain. As the provisions
of the Act now call for the surrender of all storage receipts it is reasonable that the elevator
company should in case of shipment of grain without such surrender and payment of charges,
retain possession of the bill after the grain is shipped, but it is unreasonable that they should
dispose of the grain without the consent of the owner. We therefore suggest an amendment
pro\idiiig for the holding of the bill of lading representing any stored or special binned grain
shipped upon the demand of the owner until such time as the storage receipts have been
surrendered and all lawiul charges paid, and making provision that the elevator company
shall not dispose of such bill of lading without the consent of the owner of the grain, and
also making provision for the bill of lading covering such grain to be made out in all eases
in the name of the owner. (See Appendix A, No. 10.)
To provide for the settlement of disputes as to grade of stored grain lietween the ele\ ator
ojjerator and the farmer, we have .suggested amendments to section 36 of The Grain Act,
and have included in this clause provision for the .settlement of disputes as to both grade
and dockage on grain sold by the farmer to the elevator, as now provided for by section 82
of the Inspection Act. which we suggest repealing. (See Al)pendix A, No. 11.)
'l"o provide for the righl of a sliipper to order a car or cars of sizes according to his
re«|uiremeuts, and for the retaining of his priority on the order book in ease cars of other
dimensions are tendered him. We suggest an aiuendiiient to section 58. (See Appendix \,
No. 15.)
It has l)een necessary in a number of instances for the warehou.se commissioner to order
cars contrary to the provisions of the Grain Act to elevators which were in danger of t-ollapse
or in which the grain was heating. We understand that the action of the wareho\ise com-
missioner in the.se cases has been confirmeil by the Department. We think tliat he should
have the power to so order cars, and suggest an amendment for that purpose. (See .Appen-
dix A. No. Jl.)
We notice that subsection 7. of section 20 of 'I'he Manitoba (Jrain Act, HHKI. has In-en
made section HI of chapter 8.3 of the Revised Statutes, 11102, and that the word "section" in
the first line of subsection 7 has U-en changed in .section 10 of the Revised Statutes to ".\<t.
It is possible to construe section 40 of the Revised Statutes to permit special l)iuuing oi any
ORAIX rUADE OF C AX ADA 11
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
kind of grain in terminal elevators, while it is clearly the intention of The Manitoba Grain
Act to prohibit such special binning in these elevators. Subsection 7 of section 26 of The
Manitoba Grain Act. 1000, speaks of the special binning of damaged grain, as permitted under
that section. We urge that section 40 of the Revised Statutes be restored to its original con-
nection: and further, would recommend that the following words \)e stnick out. 'when
such storage in a s|>ecial bin has been agreed upon Itetween the parties.'
Inspection Act.
We find considerable uncertainty among the farmers of the west as to whether the word
'red' in describing the varieties of spring wheat refers to the colour or the variety, or to both.
This uncertainty arises from the fact that in some years ami on some lauds the genuine Red
Fife l)ecomes mottled or loses its red colour. When this occurs, not only the colour of the
bran is changed but the colour of the interior of the berry, and of necessity the nature of the
grain for flour making purposes will be changed to a certain extent. It is quite clear to us
that it was the intention of the framers of this Act in defining the grades of red Manitoba
spring wheats to include in the percentage demanded of hard red wheat, only that variety
known as Red Fife, and only such wheat of that variety as was true to its type — that is, of
a ])Ure red colour and hard. To keep our grades of wheat up to their present standard of
rjuality for nulling purposes, we think it would be ver}- unwise to permit any grain to go
into these grades that would not come up to what was evidently intended; and to make it
clear to the farmers and the trade in general, and to the Inspection Department, we suggest
adding a clause to the interpretation section of the Grain Inspection Act defining what is
meant by the words "hard red Fife' in section SO. (See A])pendix B, Xo. 1.)
In our consideration of the grain standards board we find that they have no power to
set commercial grades for oats. AMiatever may have Ijeen the reason in the past for ex-
cluding oats from the jurisdiction of the standards board we can see no reason for tliis to-day.
It would be an advantage to the trade and the producer to have commercial grades for oats
in off seasons, and it would make our grading system complete. Therefore, we recommend
that the standards board be empowered to fix commercial grades for oats whenever necessary.
(See .\ppendix B. Xo. .3).
We have a complaint from the insjiection department that the railway does not give
them sufficient time in which to sample cars stopped at Winnipeg for inspection. It is
absolutely necessary for the proper sampling of the grain that the inspector have power to
hold cars in the railway yards until such time as they are satisfactorily sampled. We there-
fore recommend amending section 75 of the Grain Inspection Act to cover this. (See
Appendix B. Xo. 4).
In Alberta requests were made for new grades to cover white winter wheat now being
grown there and white oats of an exceptionally high quality. The production of these
grains is increasing in such quantities that we believe we are warranted in suggesting new
grades to cover them, and there is no doubt that the trade is looking for such grains. The
white winter wheat grown in .\lberta .seems to have peculiar quaUties suitable for all kinds
of biscuit making. We suggest three grades for Alberta white winter wheat and one grade
for Xo. 1 Alberta oats. (See Appendix B. Xo.'s 11 and \2).
Gr-\de for Ble.vched Whe.vt.
Many complaints were made in the countr\' that wheat slightly affected by weather
conditions is excluded from the grade to which in the opinion of the farmer it rightly belongs.
The wheat referred to is that which has received one or more showers of rain wliile standing
in the stook and in the wetting and drWng process has become bleached to some extent.
There are degrees of bleaching but the contention of the farmer refers particularly to a
slight bleaching, which, he contends, affects the skin of the berr}' only. Tliis complaint
also applies to wheat that has been threshed in a slightly damp condition and immediately
shipped to the market.
12 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Scientific tests of this iype of bleached wheat were laid before us, but as the manner of
taking the samples was not satisfactory to us we had samples drawn and sent to a laboratory
for tests as to flour making and baking qualities. From these tests we are led to believe that
the slightly bleached samples were quite as good as those that were not bleached Notwith-
standing that the test would indicate that this slightly bleached wheat is as good as the
unbleached, we think it would be very unwise to permit it to be graded into the grade that
it would otherwise have gone.
Regarding slightly tough and damp wheat it is practically in the same condition as
bleached wheat before being dried out in the stook. This wheat, which is usually bright
in colour, is dried by artificial means, and when dried will be similar to the bleached wheat,
and the same reasons may be given for not permitting it to go into the regular grade. As
there are considerable quantities of these two kinds of grain nearly every year we suggest
making a new grade to be known as No. 1 Manitoba bleached, for the purpose of taking
care of these two kinds of wheat. (See Appendix B. No. 13).
Vabieties of Sprixg Whilst other th.^n Red Fife.
There are red varieties of spring wheat other than Red Fife being grown, and while
the grades as defined in the Grain Inspection Act call for Red Fife wheat only the Inspector
has been in his discretion grading these red varieties into one northern and lower grades.
We have drawn an amendment to permit of this being done. (See Appendix B. No. 14).
Grain Standards Board.
We were asked to recommend that the present grain standards board be abolished and a
permanent salaried board estabhshed. In our opinion the present standards board is
sufficient for all the purposes for which it was appointed, and therefore, do not see any
reason for acceding to this request. We find, however, there is only one person from Alberta
a member of the grain standards board, and considering the large increase in production of
grain in that pro\inc-e, and the possibility of further increase, we respectfully recommend
the appointment of another person from Alberta to memltership on the board.
Survey Board.
We also received several suggestions for the establishment of a permanent salaried
survey board for the Manitoba Inspection Division, such suggestions no doubt arising from
dissatisfaction with or lack of confidence in the present .system. We have inquired into
the working of the survey board in Winnipeg, as well as the survey boards of INIinncapoHs
and Duluth, and have come to the conclusion that our present system of survey is efficient
and suitable to the requirements. The dissatisfaction expressed in the country in our
opinion is not warranted. We woulil, however, suggest an amendment to section 81 of the
Grain Inspection Act making it clear that the owner or possessor of the grain may have a
fresh sample drawn by the Inspection Department on which re-inspection or survey shall
be made. (See Appendix B. No. 8).
Sample Market.
We have had requests from both farmers and grain dealers for the establishment of a
sample market for grain in Winnipeg. The argument is that the price of each grade is based
on the lowest quality of that grade. This argument is not based on fact. The price of any
grain is ba.scd upon the resulting average sample of all cars of each grade as they pass through
the inspector's hands, and where the car of the highest quality loses, the car of the poorest
quality gains.
'I'he advantages from handling regular grade wheat on sample would be so small that
the disadvantages arising therefrom would greatly outweigh them; but we recognize the
i
QRAIX TRADE OF CAyiDl 13
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
fact that there are advanlaijes, ]>articu)arly to the producers, in tlie selHiig of their low grade
grain, such as bleached, damp wheats, and wheats rejected for different causes, and oats and
barley, but a sani])le market at Winnipeg would create such confusion in our present grading
and inspection system that we do not feel justified in recommending it. We would, how-
ever, refer to our amendments (.\]>i)endix li. No. 13) where we have made a new grade for
certain types of bleached and danij) grain, and the jirovision for the assessing of dockage
on all grain rejected for foreign matter. (Appendix 1$. Xo. 10).
The most serious objection to a sample market in Winnipeg, which of course would
have to be run in conjunction with our inspection system, is the fact that it would entail
mixing in practically evcrv grade. It seems to be the o[>inion of the majorit}' of the pro-
ducers, the grain dealers and the millers, that our present gratling and inspection system
should be retained in its entirety. Tliis system requires the transportation and binning of
grain according to the grade .set upon it by the original inspection. We point to the fact
that tills system grew out of a system of mixing, and in our opinion the conditions do not
warrant returning to the former state of affairs.
The Minneapolis market is cited to show the advantages of a sample market. Wlule
there we inquired into the working out of the sam])le market, and found that practically
the only advantage derived is from the fact that the mills situated at this market centre are
of such capacity that they consume nearly all the wheat consigned to Minneapohs, these
mills not having lines of coimtry elevators through which to buy their own supplies. A
sample market in Winnipeg will come naturally when we have a sufficiently large miUing
capacity either at Winnipeg or Fort William to take care of practically all the wheat that
will be sold on sample.
In connection with this matter we have to take into consideration the effect that a sample
market would have on the car supply. We found that in the handling of cars on sample in
Minneapolis they were delayed anywhere from twenty-four to forty-eight hours. While it
does not follow that all cars passing through Winnipeg would be held this length of time,
still the number that would be held, and the time occupied in the cutting out and switching
of these cars, would be very a serious matter, and in these times where the country seems
to be up in arms because of the short supply of cars from the railways, it would be very
unwise to do anj^hing that would accentuate this shortage.
Inspection Department.
We inquired into the working of the Inspection Department in all its branches, and
followed the grain through from Winnipeg to the eastern markets and to Great Britain.
We found generally speaking the working of the Inspection Department was satisfactor)'.
It is due to Chief Inspector Horn that we should say he commands, and deser\-edly so, the
respect and confidence of all, from the farmer in Western Canada to the miller in Great
Britain, and also of the trade in the United States. Considering the many thousands of cars
that pass through the hands of the Inspection Department from the Manitoba Di\nsion
the number of complaints as to the grading of the grain is remarkably small. We find the
only important complaint against our inspection is a complaint of an excessive quantity of
dirt in the shape of foreign seeds found in the grain after it is shipped from Fort William.
This matter we investigated in Ontario and Great Britain, and feel from our inspection of
arrivals that this complaint is well founded. We found arrivals of grain at the bay ports
containing too great a quantity of foreign seeds, as well as grain coming from the bay port
elevators by rail. The same is true of arrivals in Great Britain. The causes of this, in our
opinion, are as follows:
1st. The lack of proper cleaning machinerj' in Fort William and Port Arthur;
2nd. The manner of taking the sample of the grain as it runs from the spout into the
hold of the vessel does not necessarily give a true sample;
3rd. The lack of supervision of the channels of transportation eastward from Fort
William and Port .\rthur.
To remedy this we suggest, as mentioned under the heading "Terminal Elevators,"
the placing of the cleaning and binning at Fort W'illiam and Port Arthur terminal elevators
14 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
under the control of the Inspection Department. To complete the sj-stem of supervision
for the protection of grain as inspected by the Inspection Department it will be necessary to
institute a plan of supervision of grain through the elevators handling the grain to the east-
ward. We have suggested inserting in the Manitoba Grain Act, under the head of "Eastern
Transfer Elevators," sections 28a to 2811, inclusive, as contained in Appendix A. No. G.
Ontariw Inspection.
We had no serious complaint in the eastern inspection division to the working of the
Inspection Department there, but found some of the inspectors did not seem to understand
that they were not permitted under any circumstances to issue a certificate for Manitoba
grain.
We would further say, from the number of complaints received from the grain trade
in Great Britain it would a])pear that the grading of American maize in Montreal has not
Ihe confidence of the British importer and grain merchant.
Commission Merchan^is.
Complaints were made to us in the country regarding the handling of cars of consigned
grain by commission merchants in Winnipeg, the complaint being that the consignee did not
receive a complete report of the disposition of consignments. We think it would be wise
to require all commission merchants when handling consignments to report to the consignee
on a prescribed form the date of sale, the quantity sold, and the name of the purchaser, and
the price received therefor. To carry out this suggestion we are recommending an addition
to section 43 of the Manitoba Grain Act. (See Appendix A. No. 14).
The Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange and The North West Grain
Dealers' Association.
As mentioned at the commencement of this rej>ort, we inquired into the methods of the
grain dealers of the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange and of the North West Grain
Dealers' Association. Since that time indictments have been laid against individual members
of the two associations charging conspiracy under Section 498 of the Criminal Code. Al-
though this matter has been the subject of judicial inquiry and is still before the courts, we
propose discussing those matters which we think worthy of notice in connection with the
Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange and the North West Grain Dealers' Association.
WiNNii'w; Grain and Produce Exchange, .
The Winnipeg Grain l''.xcliange is a non-trading body which provides facilities for its
members in doing business and makes by-laws and regulations for Ihe .syslcmati/ing of
trade amongst its memljers. It provides a public trading room in which its meuibers buy
and sell grain. The ])rices at which transactions are made are officially jiosted on a lilack-
board by a man provided by the Exchange. These prices we find are made in ojjen com-
petition, and are beyond doubt the full \alue of Ihe grain as based on the world's markets.
The work of the Grain Hx<-hauge in establishing and syslcuuitizing a market in Winnipeg
for the handling of the crops of tile West has i)een a great bcuedt to tlie country. The
restrictions placc<l \ipon its memlicrs in |)rovi<ling for the fulfilment of contracts, the es-
taijlishment of a clearing house in wliich contracts arc protected day by day give the banks
the necessarv conddcnce and surely in advancing money lo the trade with wiiiih to handle
the crop. This has brouglit the producer imicii nearer to tiie cousunier than he at one tiiac
was and no doubt is of great financial Ix-nefit to him.
In considering Ihe by-laws of the Grain Exchange for the regulation of the trade we
think it is necessarv to refer lo bv-law 111. liule 1 of lliis by-law fixes a rate of one cent per
nrtAlX ThWDE OF CANADA 15
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
bushel commission to he cliurged by members of the Kxehange for receiving, selhng and
accounting for carloads of wheat, barley, oats and flax. There is nothing in the evidence
to indicate that this rate of one cent per bushel on heavy grain such as wheat is unreasonable,
but in our opinion one cent per liushel on light grain such as oats is too high. As the unit
of the trade is a carload, the earnings of the conimis,sion man on a car of oats, which costs
no more to handle and is usually of less value than a carload of wheat, are from eighty to
one hundred per cent more than on a car of wheat. We are pleased to see in the public
press that at the last Annual Meeting of the Winnipeg Grain and Produce Kxehange the
President recommended a reduction from one cent to one-half cent per bushel on oats, and
we trust that this recommendation will be put into force. Reasonable commission rates we
think would be not more than one cent for wheat, three-quarter cents for barley and one-
half cent for oats.
Rule 4 of by-law 19 is as follows: —
"Any member charged with violating or offering to violate the rule relating to the
established rates of commission, either by direct charging of less than such rates, or rebating
any portion of same, or by purchasing grain consigned to liim for sale, or by purchasing or
ofVering to purchase on track at outside stations where such purchase is made, at such prices
as would show less margin than the established rate of commission, or by making or reporting
any false or fictitious sales or purchases, or by assuming or rebating any of the charges which
are incurred in the handling of consigned grain, or by the payment of any amount per car,
or by operating on a joint accomit basis with any person, firm or corporation not a memljer
of the Exchange (unless such person, firm or corporation shall have been first recognized
by a resolution of the Council in accordance with Section 9 of by-law 3) without charging
and enforcing the payment of full commission rates on the interest of such person, firm or
corporation in any transaction operated by said memljer, or by gi\ing any other consideration
to any party or parties whatsoever, to influence or procure shipments or consignments of
grain to any member or members of this Exchange (the object of this being to prevent the
demoraUzation of the trade resulting from the gi^-ing, either directly or indirectly, of com-
pensations to station agents, elevator agents, bankers, merchants or parties engaged in anv
other business, at any locality whatsoever, to influence shipments or consignments of grain,
but does not prevent the regular emploraient by' members of this Exchange of legitimate
travelling men) unless such parties are regularly engaged from month to month at a regular
salary of not less than $50.00 per month, pro\'ided that such engagement shall not be com-
pulsory until on and after January 1, 1907, or by resorting to any method of account, shift
or device whatsoever, wherein its jjurpose or effect is contrary to the faithful observances
of and strict adherence to the established rates of commission shall when such charge is made
in writing to the Complaint Committee, and on such complaint being thought proper
by such committee, be summoned to appear before the Council, and if, upon investi-
gation by them, the member accused shall by a vote of not less than two-thirds of
the members present, be found guilty of such offence, then the said member shall
for the first offence pay a fine of not more than five hundred dollars($500) according
to the discretion of the Council, and for the second or any subsequent offence shall pay a fine
of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) according to the discretion of the Coimcil
and a failure to pay any fine on written demand of the Secretarv* shall constitute a violation
of the by-laws of the Exchange, and subject such member to all the penalties and disabilities
incident to such a violation; and in addition to such fines for such first or subsequent ofi'ence
ihe Council may, by a majority vote of the members present, censure or suspend such mem-
oer; and for a third, or any subsequent offence, the Council may recommend to the Exchange
for expulsion such member, provided that the Council may in its discretion, by a majority
vote of the members present, for such first or second offence recommend for expulsion the
said memljer, in which event he shall not be liable to the payment of any fine. The en-
forcement of the provisions of this Section shall not in any manner prevent the enforcement
of any additional penalties for Ihe violation of any by-law of the E.xchange as provided for
under by-law No. .5.'
We find on April 19, 1907, this rule was amended by striking out the words 'unless
such parties are regularly engaged from month to month at a regular salary of not less than
16 ROYAL COilMISSIOy OX THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
fifty dollars jier month, p^o^^ded that such engagement shall not be compulsory until on
and after January 1, 1907.'
This rule provides a penalty for the breaking of Rule 1 of by-law 19 which fixes the
commission rate. The breaking of the commission rule is the splitting of the commission
in any way with the person from whom the dealer may buy gi'ain. The Grain Exchange
maintains it is a breaking of this commission rule to give any specified sum per car or per
bushel to a person in the country who may purchase on account of such grain btlyer a car-
load of grain from the farmer, or influence the shipment of « carload of grain to a commission
merchant even though the difference between the price paid to the farmer and that at which
the car is sold in Winnipeg shows a full one cent per bushel commission. \Ye think that
this interpretation is read into this rule for the purpose of preventing the inchscriminate
giving of compensation to station agents, bankers, merchants or parties engaged in any
other business, or buyers of grain or agents of commission men. ^Ye are not at all certain
that the reason for this interpretation is a bad one but we cannot agree with the principle
that the Grain Exchange should have the power to say how its members shall employ their
agents and in what manner they shall be compensated.
It seems to us that the effect of this rule compelling agents in the country to be paid by
fixed salary is to drive the track buying business into the hands of the larger dealers and of
necessity to curtail the business of the smaller dealer and commission men. Taking it for
granted that it is wise to prevent the ginng of compensations indiscriminately to parties
as above mentioned and that it is wrong to control the manner in wliich a member of the
Exchange may engage his agents and how he shall pay them, we think that a reasonable
solution would be that each member of the Exchange who wishes to employ agents in the
country should be allowed to do so at his pleasure but the names of such agents should be
registered with the Secretary of the Grain Exchange, then the registered agents could be
paid in any manner the member might see fit.
The North West Grain Dealers' Assocu.tion'.
The North West Grain Dealers" Association is a corporation existing under charter
from the Province of Manitoba, the members of which are elevator owners and grain dealers,
a large proportion of whom are also members of the Winnipeg Grain Exchange. \Miile
the powers of this corporation under its charter are very broad it does not engage in any
business other than the buying of supplies for the country elevators of its members and the
sending out of joint telegrams to all bujing points, thus saving a large amount to its members
each year. The main object of the association evidently is the regulating of the buying of
grain in the country. Each day on the closing of the market the secretary sends to every
buying point where members of the association are represented a telegram containing the
prices for the day. As we have explained, there are two prices, namely track and street.
The track ]irice is fixed absolutely by the closing ca.sh price in Winnipeg until the opening
of the market next day. The street price is variable and depends \ipon the car supply, the
price of the delivery month in which the grain may reasonably Ik- ex]>ected to arrive at the
delivery point, and such expenses and profits as are agreed upon from time to time by the
members of the association. While it is quite evident that there is an agreement or under-
standing that the list prices as sent to the country and the changes as wired from time to
time are to l)e adhered to and buyers instructed to this efl'cct, we cannot find anything in the
association by-laws compelling its members to al)ide by the ])rices so decided u|)on, nor can
we find any |)enalty provided for the breaking of the jirices. We find that these prices are
not adhered to in all ca.ses, although where a buyer persists in breaking prices he is brought
into line by the combined action of other buyers on prices.
We have given the matter of .street prices our serious consideration, and we fail to agree
as to whether or not the prices paid on the .street are reasonable. The main protection
the producer has against these ])rices Ix-ing unduly depressed by the a.s.socialion is his right to
ship his grain to the central market and sell on the Irack basis. This protection will not be
complete until such time as the car supply during the .shi|)])ing season is ample for the re-
quirements. This .system of the North West (irain Dealers' .V.s.socialion is no lioubl a Iraile
GRAIN TRADE OF CANADA 17
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
restriction, but whether it constitutes an undue restriction or not is a matter which is now
before the courts.
Pooling.
In investigating the methods of the grain trade in Winnipeg we found that there had
been in existence an agreement between certain elevator companies for the pooUng of the
receipts or earnings at the diH'erent points where their elevators came into competition with
one another. The basis upon wliich the division was made was that each elevator at any
given station was allotted a corlnin proportion of the total receipts of all the elevators in the
agreement and month by month a statement was submitted by each elevator showing the
total amount of grain taken, and a division was made on the basis of so much per bushel,
the one who received more than his percentage paying into the pool, and the one who re-
ceived less than his |)ercentago drawing out of the pool. This pooling arrangement we
think placed such a restraint upon the o])erations of the elevator companies within the
agreement that it constituted a menace to those who had to sell grain to these elevators,
and tended to unduly limit com4>etition. We find that in the State of JNIinnesota pooling
arrangements of this kind were in operation at one time, but they were evidently looked
upon with disfavour by the State and a law was ])assed prohibiting such agreements. While
this pooling arrangement has been discontinued here we think it is wise to include in the
Grain Act a provision prohibiting such arrangements amongst elevator companies. We
suggest amendment No. 21 of Appendix A. to cover this.
W.\REHousE Commissioner's Department.
We received a number of complaints in the country regarding the conduct of the Ware-
house Commissioner's Department. These complaints were cliiefly of slackness in pro-
secuting offenders under the Act, the ofTences Wing principally violations of the pro\-ision3
governing the car order book. We have very seriously considered these complaints and
have come to the conclusion that the real trouble lies in the Act imder which the Warehouse
Commissioner works, and we are suggesting certain amendments w'hich will materially
assist the Warehouse Commissioner in the conduct of his department. The duty of the
Warehouse Commissioner to reconcile the conflicting interests of elevator companies and
farmers is a very onerous one indeed, and notwithstanding the complaints we think that
Mr. Castle deserves credit for the manner in which he has conducted his office. The Ware-
house Commissioner is practically an arljitrator between the producer and the grain dealer,
and we believe this department could be administered \\-ith better results if the term of office
of the Commissioner were for a certain number of years, w ith eligibility for re-appointment.
W'e have accordingly drawn up an amendment. No. 2 A. of App. A. providing for this.
Terminal Elevators.
In our investigation of these elevators at Fort William and Port Arthur we found that
there were only four elevators being operated by a railway company, these elevators being
the group owned and operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. The Empire
Elevator at Fort William is owned and operated by a private corporation known as The
Empire Elevator Company. The Canadian Northern Railway Company elevator at Port
Arthur was leased bj' a private corporation known as the British America Elevator Company
at the time of our investigation, but now known as The Port Arthur Elevator Company.
The British America Elevator Company is a grain company of Winnipeg and a branch of
the Peavy Company of Minneapolis. The Port Arthur Elevator Company now operating
these elevators is a subsidiary corporation organized for the purpose of operating the Can-
adian Northern terminal elevators at Port Arthur as leased by the British America Elevator
Company from the Canadian Northern Railway. There is another ele\ator now in operation
known as The Consolidated Elevator Company. This is another private corporation
o9— 2
18 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
owning and operating an elevator at this point as a terminal. The Grand Trunk Pacific
Railway Company purpose building elevators at Fort William as terminals in connection
with their railway system. Mr. Morse, Vice-President and General Manager of the Grand
Trunk Pacific Railway, in a letter to the Commission states : 'We had contemplated having
interested in the Grand Tnmk Pacific Terminal Elevator Company thers othan the Railroad
Company, and negotiations had taken place. However, it has now been decided that the
Grand Trunk Pacific Terminal Elevator Company will build and operate its own elevators,
at least for the present.'
The private corporations operating the terminal elevators at Fort William are composed
largely of the shareholders, oflScers and directors of grain firms and country line elevator
companies in Winnipeg, and as such have a direct financial interest in much of the grain
passing through their elevators at Fort WilUam. We find that the Canadian Pacific Rail-
way elevator at Port Arthur is operated by a private company, but is used exclusively for
the handling of off-grade grain- of different descriptions, and does not stand in the same
relation to the general grain trade as do the other terminal elevators.
The Ogilvie Milling Company elevator at Fort William has been rebuilt, but from the
Warehouse Commissioner we imderstand that it has not yet obtained a license to do business
as a terminal elevator.
Regarding the operation of these elevators in general, it is very difficult, and in fact
impossible, for a comniission from public sittings and inspection of the elevators to deter-
mine whether they are being operated strictly according to the provisions of the Manitoba
Grain Act and The Grain Inspection Act, but from the evidence received in Ontario, and
from samples submitted to us there, and from samples taken directly by the Comniission
from arrivals at bay ports, it is quite clear that there is not a sufficient supervision or control
of the cleaning of grain at Fort William. There is a very general complaint throughout
Ontario that they do not get the regular grades of Manitoba grain, of ^^heat especially,
in as clean a condition as is called for by the Inspection Department. W'e also found from
examination of arrivals in Great Britain that the grain as received there contains too great
a percentage of foreign matter. It is quite evident to us that there should be a complete
supervision of the cleaning operations of these elevators. We were convinced at the time
of our inspection that many of the cleaning machines installed in the different elevators
have not the capacity nor are they of the proper type for cleaning the grain to grade. With
regard to the quality of the grain itself, we would say that while there is a possibility of
elevator operators mixing grain contrary to the Grain Inspection Act, we did not find in
following the grain to its ultimate destination in Ontario and Great Britain, that there was
any serious complaint as to the quality of the different grades being materially reduced, still in
some ca.ses samples were produced to ns that would lead us to believe that there had been
either manipulation or serious mistakes made somewhere.
In the consideration of the weights it will be neces.sary to take up the out-turns of vessels
carrying grain from Fort William and Port Arthur. We have had submitted to us state-
ments of the Canadian boats carrying grain from Fort William and Port Arthur, and they
show a considerable shortage |)er thousand bushels on the average, and some astonishing
individual shortages and averages. To Kingston and Montreal we find that the weights
are nmch more regular and clo.ser to those given by Fort William and Port .\rthur. At
Buffalo, from .statements issued by the Buffalo Chamber of Commerce Weighmaster, we
find that in nine out of the past fen years Fort William and Port Arthur shipments have
shown a surplus at this jioint on the grain weiglicii in by this weighmaster, but even there
we find some very large individual overages and shortages. The shipments to the Georgian
Bay and Lake Huron ports show a heavy shortage. This would indicate that the weighing
is very irregular, and it .seems to us advisable that a special weighing department should
be created.
The matters to be con.sidered in ((inneclion with the elevators at Fort William and
Port .Vrlhur in our opinion are, the establishing of complete control of the cleaning and
binning of grain in all elevators, and the establi.shing of a weighing department that will
take over the weighing of all grain where public weighing is called for. To attain these
objects we would suggest that the Inspection DcpiirlnienI be i)ut in full control of the clean-
ORAlJi TRADE OF CANADA 19
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
ing and binning of all grain passing through the terminal elevators at Fort William and
Port Arthur in addition to their present duties of inspection. We would further suggest
that the weighing Ije taken out of the hands of the Inspection Department entirely and
that a new department be created with a chief weighmaster at its head, whose duties shall
be to weigh all grain where necessary at public elevators in the Manitoba Inspection Di\-ision.
We have drawn up amendments to the Grain Inspection Act, which are 7Sa and
786 of No. 6 of Api>endix B. hereto, to cover the control of the cleaning and binning; and
as to the weighing we have drawn up a number of pro%'isions which we would suggest being
embodied in an Act to be known as The Act for the Weighing of Grain, or they might pos-
sibly be inserted as amendments to the Grain Inspection Act or to the Manitoba Grain
Act. (See Appendix C. hereto.)
Requests were made of us in the coimtrv that the elevators at Fort William and Port
Arthur shoidd be taken over and operated by the Government in -view of the fact that
so many of them were operated by private corporations interested in the grain trade.
We also had a counnunication from the department under date Januar)- 23, 1907, enclosing
a petition of members of Parliament addressed to The Honourable the Premier, requesting
that we be instructed to specifically 'inquire into and report whether it is in the public
interest that terminal elevators continue to be operated by the common carriers
or allowed to pass into the hands of or be operated by persons, firms or corporations engaged
in the grain business.'
In reply to this communication we addressed to Honourable Sir Richard Cartwright,
Minister of Trade and Commerce, a letter dated February 1, a copy of which is appended
hereto. We can see no reason for changing the conclusions arrived at at that time, and
we believe if our recommendations are carried out they will give the public the same con-
fidence and protection in the operation of these terminal elevators as if they were owned
by the Government.
These regulations, if applied to elevators rm in connection with flour mills, should
warrant the issue of a Ucense to such elevators as public terminals.
As our whole system of inspection and the handling of grain under the Grain Inspection
Act and the Manitoba Grain Act depends upon the forwarding of our grain through the
channels of transportation to final destination with identity of grade preserved, it seems
to us that the system is imperfect, owing to the fact that east of Fort William there is no
control whatever of grain going forward imder government inspection certificates. As
it is of the utmost importance when the trade is doing business on the western inspection
that lots of grain so bought in the east or in foreign countries should go forward the exact
grade and in the condition in which it leaves Fort William or Port Arthur, we would, there-
fore, suggest that all public elevators which handle grain grown in the Manitoba inspection
division, east of Fort William, for storage or transhipment should be placed under restrictions
similar to those of terminal elevators in the Manitoba division as to licensing, bonding, binning
and weighing of grain. With the object of introducing such control of the grain in its
movement eastward, or the control of those elevators which handle grain, we are including
in the provisions for the establishing of a weigh-master's department, as above referred
to, certain provisions for the appointing of weigh-masters in each elevator who shall have,
under the supenision of the chief weigh-master, control of the receiving, binning, weighing
and outward shipment of the grain. In the event of the government not appointing these
weigh-masters, we suggest the appointing of two or more superintendents who shall, under
the direction of the chief weigh-master, have supervision over the operation of these elevators.
There are now weigh-masters appointed at Georgian Bay and Lake Huron ports for the
outward weighing of grain for domestic consumption, and from the evidence received,
we find that the service rendered is not at all satisfactory, and would suggest that this weigh-
ing be discontinued and the above provisions carried into effect.
We find in tracing -the grain forward from Fort William and Port Arthur that there
is great difficulty in establishing the identity of the inspection certificate with the parcel of
grain itself and with the lake bill covering the same, and also with the railway shipping
bill out of the elevators on Georgian Bay and Lake Huron. This is a serious fault in the
system and leaves an o()ening to the fraudulent use of such grain certificates. To cover
59— 2J
20 R07AL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
this point, we are suggesting an amendment to the Inspection Act giving the chief inspector
power to make such rules and regulations as are necessary for the proper identification of
his inspection certificates with the different parcels of grain and the different bills of lading
covering them.
Storage and Insurance.
In considering the rates as charged by terminal elevators at Fort Wilham and Port
Arthur, we find that previous to September 7, 1903, the rate in force for storage was one-hah
cent for the first fifteen days and one-half cent for each succeeding thirty days or part thereof.
This rate included recei^nng, cleaning, storing and shipping. On the above mentioned date
the rate was advanced to three-quarters of one cent for each term, including insurance.
On September 15 of this year the rates were again changed to three-quarters of one cent
per bushel for the first fifteen days, and one-thirtieth of one cent a day thereafter, including
handling and insurance.
As the one-half cent rate pre\'ious to September 7, 1903, was for handling only, and
three-quarters of one cent subsequent to this date was for handling and insurance, the infer-
ence is that the one-quarter of one cent is to pay for the insurance of the grain, and in fact
in our evidence it was definitely stated by a terminal elevator manager that the quarter of v
cent was to pay for the insurance. Regarding the reasonableness of this rate we may say
we find from statements received and by deductions from the warehouse commissioner's
files, that the rate of one-quarter of one cent gives an exorbitant profit over and above the
actual cost of the insurance. Of course a rate has to be charged on the grain that will
provide for the fluctuations in values, but we find by taking the average amount in store
throughout the last shipping season, valued at one dollar a bushel, and insured at two and
one-quarter per cent, it still leaves a very large surplus over and al)ove the quarter of a cent
per bushel on the total amount of grain handled through the elevators, not taking into
account the large sum of money that was collected on second, third and fourth terms of
grain held in store over the winter. We recommend a reduction of one-eighth of one cent
under subsection 2 of section 25 of the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900.
With regard to the storage rates put in force on the 15th September last, we had no
evidence from the terminal elevator companies to show that the old rate of one-half cent
per bushel was too low, and we think that in making their new rates a rate should be made
sufficient to give the same net result as under the old one-half cent rate on the monthly basis.
We are pleased to see that the terminal elevator companies have put into force a per diem
rate after the first term of fifteen days, as it will be a \ery great convenience to the trade.
As the elevator companies have voluntarily assumed the insurance of the grain we do
not .see why provision should not be made in the Act for such insurance, and the giving of
proper assurance through the warehouse commissioner to the owner of the grain that the
insurance has been effected and with suitable companies. We have drawn up an amend-
ment to .section 25 of the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, to cover this. (See Appendi.v A, No. 4.)
AntTLTEBATION OF FoOD StUFFS.
We find there is a practice of mixing ground oat hulls, seeds, and other adulterating
material with bran, shorts, corn, and other feeds, and these are jtlaced on the nuirket and
sold as ])ure food stuffs. While we see no objection to these mixed foods being sold, \vc think
they should not lie offered for sale without the adulteration being indicated.
Terminal Elevator at Vancouver.
Witli regard to the request of the people of Alberta that we should go to Vancouver for
the pur[)ose of investigating the possibilities of an outlet ( ia the Pacific coast for grain grown
in the western portion of the wheat iK'lt, we would say that without a doubt there is going
to Ix; n very large increase in the grain production within the very near future in Allx-rta
nnd Western Saskatchewan. At the present time there are no facilities for the handling of
(lliHX TRADE OF CANADA 21
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
grain westward, therefore the grain from this territory must of necessity come eastward
over the jiresent lines of transportation to Fort William and Port Arthur. The cost of
transportation for this distance is so heavy that the resulting price to the farmer is altogether
too low in comparison to that obtained in Manitoba and Jvistern Saskatchewan. There
is no doubt in our minds that a verj- large trade with the Orient could be developed if there
were transportation facilities at reasonable rates to the Pacific coast, and proper terminal
facilities there for handling the grain. Considering the benefit that would arise out of this
trade with the Orient to the grain producers of Alberta and Western Saskatchewan, we
think the government would be justified in assisting the development of tliis trade.
Appendix A and Appendix B contain our suggested amendments to the Manitoba
Grain Act, and the Grain Inspection Act. We have discussed most of these amendments
in our report, but there are others that we do not think it necessary to refer to specially.
We send herewith copy of the e\idence taken at the sittings of the Commission.
All of which your Commissioners beg respectfully to submit.
JXO. iNULLAR. Chairman.
W. L. McNAIR, 1
> Commissioners.
G. E. GOLDIE, J
Dated at Winnipeg this 11th day of October, A.D. 1907.
£. NIELD, Secretary.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
In dealing with the subject of car distribution in the report of the Royal Grain Com-
mission, there is nothing said directly regarding the present system of gi\-ing one car to each
indi\'idual shipper in rotation, but the inference is that the Commissioners agree to and
confirm this system. To this I cannot agree, as I do not consider that the system of giving
a car to each shipper is a just one.
Previous to the time of the enactment of the present Manitoba Grain Act, the producer
in general no doubt suffered an injustice in not being able to ship his grain to Fort William
at his pleasure. Sections 58 and 59 of the Manitoba Grain Act corrected this evil, but at
the same time the correction has proved an injustice to a certain group of producers and
to elevator owners.
In an agricultural district like the provinces of the West, where the revenue of the farm
is derived entirely from its crop of grain, it is necessary that each farmer should be able to
market a certain portion of his crop at as early a date as possible, so that he may meet his
liabilities, or at least a reasonable portion of them. The necessity of reahzing on the crop
at an early date is felt more by the new settler, and the small farmer, than by those who
have been in the country some years, and are in a better financial position My argument
is that the new settler and the smaller farmer are usually at the greatest distance from the
railroad, and the last to have their grain threshed and ready for market. The larger and more
prosperous farmers are those who are usually nearest to the railway, and who have their
threshing done early in the season. Thus the producer who has his grain ready for market
the quickest is the man who gets the car in which to ship it, and cars are ordered by these
farmers in such numbers that it has been impossible to supply sufficient equipment to take
care of all such farmers' requirements before the close of na^"igation. That group of pro-
ducers who are not able to get their grain ready for market early find that when they are
ready to .sell their grain there is such a large number of cars ordered that it is almost impos-
sible for them to get cars until a very late date, and they are therefore compelled to sell their
wheat on the street to the elevator to raise funds to meet their liabilities. There are also to
be considered those farmers who have not sufficient of any one kind of grain to load a car
22 ROTAL COMMISSION O.V THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
to capacity, and those who from ignorance will not ship; the latter mostly foreigners. This
group of producers should have, perhaps, the greatest consideration in dealing with this
matter.
From statements and e\idence received from the elevator companies, we find that
there is about sixty per cent of the wheat crop sold on the street to elevator companies, and
about forty per cent is loaded on the car by the farmer, either through an elevator or over
the loading platforms, but it is not fair to conclude that the sixty per cent of street wheat
comes entirely from those farmers who are not in a position to get cars to load their own
grain. There is no doubt a proportion of it that is sold as street wheat when the car supply
is ample for requirements, and the street price, therefore, so close to the track price that
the farmer is induced to sell to the elevator. I think it is reasonable to assume that about
twenty per cent of the crop might be accounted for in this way, leaWng about fortv per cent
that is sold under necessitj- on the street. I would, therefore, group the producers as follows:
The farmer who gets cars to ship and who sells on the street when the price i-. satisfactory
to him, sixty per cent; the farmer who sells on the street from necessity, forty ]ier cent.
We will take, for instance, a station at which there are four elevators, and it will be
found that in the latter part of October or early in November there mav possiblv be one
hundred cars on the order book, and out of this one hundred there cannot be more than
four cars for the shipment of wheat that has been bought by the elevators on the street;
therefore, there are ninety-six farmers out of the sixty per cent group who will get cars for
the shipment of their grain, and thus get the premium that is paid for spot wheat, while
there are only four farmers out of the forty per cent group who will have their wheat shipped
out of the elevators by the elevator companies, thus making room for more street wheat.
This may be an extreme case, but it illustrates quite clearly the situation. We found
during our investigation in the country in the fall of 1906 a great many stations where the
elevators were filled to their full capacity, and were unable to buy the grain offered to them
by farmers who were under a very urgent necessity for the raising of funds, while at these
• same stations a large group of farmers out of the sixty per cent group above mentioned, had
been able to market a considerable quantity of their grain early in the season by the securing
of cars.
I, therefore, consider that the present distribution of cars becomes an injustice to
that group of farmers who are compelled to sell their wheat on the street.
Referring to the elevators, and their position with regard to the car distribution, I do
not consider that they suffer equally with the forty per cent group of farmers, insomuch
as they are making considerable earnings out of the wheat that is stored with them and ulti-
mately shipped by the farmer, and again they buy a considerable portion of this stored grain,
and thus make another earning out of it through the purchase and sale. To protect
themselves on the purchase of street wheat under the present car distribution, the elevators
are compelled early in the crop season to reduce tlieir ])rices paid on the street to the basis
of future delivery at Fort William, and thus the sjiread between street and track l)ccomes
very marked within three or four weeks after the deliveries of grain commence. Were the
car distribution such that the forty per cent group of farmers who sell on the street could
have their wheat shipped forward more promptly than is now the case, the spread between
street and track prices would remain near the charge assessed by the elevator companies
for handling grain through their houses until a very much later date in the fall. In this
way the advantage that is gained through having grain in a position to .sell as track or cash
grain would be more equitably distributed between the si.xty per cent and forty per cent
groups of farmers.
I would, therefore, respectfully suggest that Ihat .section of the Manitoba Grain Act
(section No. 59) dealing with the distribution of cars during a car shortage should be so
amended that the elevators would get forty per cent of all cars received at each station for
grain shipment.
All which is respectfully submitted.
G. E. GOLDIE.
flRAIl^ TRADE OF CANADA 23
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
APPENDIX ' A.'
AMENDjVIENTS to MANITOBA GRAIN ACT, inoo.
No. t.
Tliat section 2 of the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be struck out and the following sul>
stituted therefor: —
'2. This Act shall apply to the inspection district of Manitoba, as defined by chapter
25 of the statutes of 1899, and all elevators east of Fort WiUiam and Port Arthur which
receive Manitoba grain for storage or transhipment and doing business for a compensation."
No. 2.
That the following be added as subsections 2, 3 and 4 of section 18 of the Manitoba
Grain Act, 1900:—
'2. It shall be the duty of every pubhc terminal elevator to clean all grain received
by them on which the inspector has set dockage for cleaning, except all rejected grades,
which shall be cleaned only upon request of owner.
'3. Public terminal elevators shall pay or make allowance to the owner for all domestic
grain of a commercial value in screenings, as set forth in section 87 of the Grain Inspection
Act as amended, to the amount assessed by the inspector.
'4. It shall be the duty of every pubhc terminal warehouseman to insure all grain
received, handled or stored by him with companies satisfactory to the warehouse commis-
sioner, and to an amount approved of by the said commissioner.'
No. 2a.
That section 3 of the ^Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be struck oiit and the following sub-
stituted therefor:—
'3. The Governor in Council may appoint an officer to be known as the warehouse
commissioner for the inspection district of Manitoba, who shall hold office for a period of
ten years, and who shall be eligible for re-appointment, and may be dismissed for cause
only. The warehouse commissioner shall be subject to the control and management of
the Department of Inland Revenue, and shall, in his oath of office, declare that he is not
directly or indirectly pecuniarily interested in the grain trade, and the salary of the said
commissioner and the security to be given by him shall be determined by the Governor in
Council.'
No. 3.
Section 24 of the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by inserting in the seventh
line thereof, after the word 'warehouse' the following words, 'and of the total amount of
insurance thereon.'
No. 4.
Section 25, subsection 1 of the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by striking
out the words 'and handling' in the fourth line and inserting in lieu thereof the words.
24 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
'handling and insurance,' and by striking out the words 'or handling of grain' in the tenth
line and inserting in lieu thereof the words 'handling or insurance of grain.'
That section 25, subsection 2 be amended by striking out the words in the first line
thereof, 'cleaning and handling of grain' and inserting in lieu thereof the words 'cleaning,
handling and insurance of grain.'
No. 5.
That section 26 of the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by striking out in the
second and third lines thereof the words 'by fire nor for any damage.'
No. 6.
That the following be inserted in the Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, as sections 28a to 28i,
inclusive: —
'eastern transfer elevators.
'28a. Elevators east of Port Arthur and Fort WiUiam receiving grain grown in the
Manitoba inspection division for storage or transhipment doing business for a compensa-
tion, shall be known for the purpose of this Act as eastern transfer elevators, and shall be
under the jurisdiction of the warehouse commissioner.
' 2Sb. The proprietor, lessee or manager of any eastern transfer elevator shall be required,
before transacting any business, to procure from the commissioner a license, permitting
such proprietor, lessee or manager to transact business as a public warehouseman under
the law, which license shall be issued by the commissioner upon written application, which
shall set forth the location and name of such elevator and the individual name of each person
interested as owner or manager thereof, — or, if the elevator is owned or managed by a cor-
poration, the name of the corporation and the names of the president, secretary and treasurer
of such corporation shall be stated; and the said license shall give authority to carry on and
conduct the business of eastern transfer elevators in accordance with the law and shall
be revocable by the commissioner upon a summary proceeding before the commissioner,
upon complaint of any person, in writing, under oath, setting forth the particular violation
of law, and upon satisfactorj' proof, to be taken in such manner as is directed by the com-
missioner, such revocation not to take effect imtil the Minister of Inland Revenue has given
his sanction thereto.
'2. The annual fee for such license shall be two dollars.
'28c. The person receiving a hcense as herein provided shall fde with the commissioner
granting it a bond to His Majesty, with good and sufficient sureties to be approved by the
commissioner, in the penal sura of not less than ten thousand, nor more than fifty thousand
dollars, in the discretion of the commissioner for each eastern transfer elevator licensed by
him, conditional for the faithful perforniance of his duties as an eastern transfer warehouse-
man, and his full and unreserved compliance with all laws in relation thereto: Provided,
that when any person or corporation procures a license for more than one elevator no more
than one bond need be given, the amount of which shall not exceed the above maximimi.
'28d. Any person who transacts the business of an eastern transfer warehouseman
without first procuring a license as herein provided, or who continues to transact such busi-
ness after such license has been revoked fsavc only that he may be jtcrmitlcd to deliver grain
previously stored in such elevator), shall on conviction u|ion indictment l)e liable to a penalty
not less than $50, nor more than $250, for each and every day such business is carried on;
and the commissioner may refuse to renew any license or grant a new one to any per.son
whose license has been revoked, witliin one year from the time when it was revoked.
'28e. Every warehouseman of an eastern transfer elevator shall be re(|iiired during
the first week of September in each year to file with the conmiissioner a table or schedule
of rales for the storage and handling of grain in his transfer elevator during the ensuing
GRAIV TRADE OF CANADA 25
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
year, which rate shall not \ie increased durinj; the year; and such pubUshed rates, or any
published reduction of Iheni, shall apply to all grain received into such elevator, from any
person or source; and no discrimination as to rates shall be made, directly or indirectly,
by such warehouseman for the storage, cleaning or handling of grain.
'-. The charge for storage and handling of grain, including the cost of receiving and
delivering, shall be subject to such regulations or reduction as the Governor in Council
from lime to lime deems pro|)er.
'28i''. No eastern transfer warehouseman .sliall be held responsible for any loss or damage
to grain by fire, nor for any danuige arising from irresistible force, the act of God or the
King's enemies, \\hile such grain is in his custody, provided reasonable care and vigilance
is exercised to protect and preserve it.
'2. No eastern transfer warehouseman shall be held liable for damage to grain by heat-
ing, if it is shown that he has exercised proper care in the handling and storing thereof,
and that such heating was the result of causes beyond his control.
'3. Unless public notice has been given, as hereinafter provided, by him, that some
portion of the grain in liis elevator is out of condition, or becoming so, such warehouseman
shall deliver grain of quality equal to that received by him on all receipts presented.
'4. In case, however, an eastern transfer warehouseman considers that any portion of
the grain in his elevator is out of condition or becoming so, he shall immediately by telegram
and by registered letter give notice both to the sliipper and the party to be advised, and any
other party indicated upon the document accompanying such grain as an interested party,
and shall at the same time give public notice by advertising in a daily newspaper in Toronto
and Montreal, and by posting a notice in the elevator and in the Grain Exchange at Toronto
and Montreal of its actual condition as near as can be ascertained. He shall state in such
notice the kind and grade of the grain and the elevator in wliich it is stored, and shall also
state in such notice the warehouse receipts, if any, outstanding upon wliich such grain shall
be delivered, giving the numbers, amoimts and dates of each, the grain represented by
which has not previously Ijeen declared or receipted for as out of condition, or if warehouse
receipts have not been issued, then he shall give the name of the party for whom such grain
was stored, and the particulars of the lake bills or shipping bills under which it was received,
the date it was received and the quantity of it, and the identification of the grain so discredited
to embrace as near as may be as great a quantity of grain as is contained in the bin or bins
in the elevator in which it is stored, and such grain shall be dehvered upon the return and
cancellation of the warehouse receipts or the surrender of the original endorsed shipping
receipt and payment of charges upon request of the owner thereof.
'.5. Nothing herein contained shall be held to relieve the said warehouseman from
exercising proper care and vigilance in preserving such grain after such publication of its
condition, but such grain shall be kept separate and apart from all direct contact with other
grain, and shall not be mixed with any other grain while in store in such elevator. Any
warehouseman guilty of any act of neglect, the effect of which is to depreciate property
stored in the elevator under his control, shall be held responsible as at common law, or upon
the bond of such warehouseman, and in addition thereto the license of such warehouseman
may be revoked.
'6. In case the grain declared out of condition as herein provided for is not removed
from store by the owner thereof within one month from the date of the notice of its being
out of condition, the warehouseman in whose elevator the grain is stored may sell it at
public auction for the account of said owner, upon giving ten days pubhc notice by adver-
tisement in a newspaper published in a city or town where such elevator is located, and in
Winnipeg Toronto and Montreal, and by posting a notice in the Grain Exchanges at Winni-
pes;, Toronto and Montreal, and if the proceeds of such sale are not sufficient to satisfy all
charges accrued jiffainst the grain at the time of the sale, then the owner of the grain so
disposed of shall be liable to the warehouseman for any deficiencj'.
'280. Every eastern transfer elevator warehouseman shall keep a true and correct
record of each parcel or lot of grain received by him, noting the name of the boat and number
of the hold from which taken, or the number of the car, the billed weight, the actual weight
as weighed in by him and shortage or overage, the number of the bin in which stored, and
26 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
in case of a transfer in the elevator the number of the bin to which transferred, the date of
shipment out of elevator with the number of car or name of boat and number of hold; and
in all cases where a certificate of grade accompanies a lot or parcel of grain the identity of
such certificate with the lot or parcel of grain shall be preserved. He shall keep a correct
record of the name of the shipper, the party to be advised of the shipment and the consignee.
'28h. Every eastern transfer elevator warehouseman shall receive grain grown in the
Manitoba inspection di\dsion tendered him through the ordinary channels of transportation
in the usual manner in which such elevators are accustomed to receive grain in the ordinary
course of business in such parcels or lots as shipped, and shall preserve the identity of each
parcel or lot except that he may bin together different lots of the same grade when he has
not sufficient space in his elevator to keep the parcels or lots separate. In no case shall
grain of different grades be mixed together while in store. He shall not make any discrim-
ination between persons desiring to avail themselves of warehouse facihties. Nothing in
this section shall be construed to require the receipt of any kind of grain into an elevator
in which there is not sufficient room to accommodate or store it properly, or in cases where,
such elevator is necessarily closed.
'28i. The warehouseman of every eastern transfer elevator shall as directed by the com-
missioner render a weekly statement in the form of a statutory declaration, before some
person authorized by law to take the same, by one of the principal owners or operators
thereof, or by the bookkeeper thereof, having personal knowledge of the facts, to the com-
missioner of the quantity of each kind and grade of grain in store in his warehouse at the
close of business on the previous Saturday.'
No. 7.
That The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by adding the following subsections
1a and 1b of section 34: —
' 1a. In every case where grain has been delivered at any public country elevator or
warehouse, and a cash purchase ticket issued therefor to the person from whom such grain
was received by the warehouseman, and should either the warehouseman or his pajing
agent within twenty-four hours after demand by the holder, neglect or refuse to redeem
such cash purchase ticket, the said holder may after the expiration of such twenty-four
hours, and upon surrender of such cash ticket demand in exchange therefor a warehouse
storage receipt bearing same date and place of issue, and for similar grade and net weight
of grain as was shown on the cash purchase ticket aforesaid. Upon return of the said cash
purchase ticket to the warehouseman, he shall at once issue in exchange therefor to the
holder a warehouse storage receipt of same grade and quantity of grain as shown on the
face of said surrendered cash purchase ticket.
1b. The person operating any country elevator or warehouse .shall the time of
delivery of any grain at his elevator or warehouse issue to the person tlelivering same either
a cash purchase ticket, warehouse storage receipt, or storage receipt or special binned
grain, dated the day the grain was received, for each individual load, lot or parcel of grain
delivered at such elevator or warehouse in the form prest'ribed by the schedule to this Act.
No. 8.
'i'hat subsection 3 of section 34 of The Manitoba Grain Act, HtOO, l)e amended by
striking out all the words after the words 'owner thereof in the twelfth line, and inserting
in lieu thereof, "such country elevator or warehou.se l)efore so forwrading such grain shall
give notice to the owner by mail at least four days before shipping."
No. 9.
That Section 31 of '['he Manitoba Grain Act, 19(10, lie aiucndcil by inserting as sub-
sections 4a and 4ii, the following:
4a. In everv case where grain is storeil in any public country elevator or warehouse
in a special bin the warehouseman shall draw a fair and proper sample in the presence of the
QRAIIi TRADE OF CANADA 27
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
person delivering same out of each hopper load as delivered, and such sample shall be pro-
perly preserved in a suitable receptacle (numbered and scaled) until after such special
binned grain has been shipped and inspected, and the owner thereof has notified the ware-
houseman he is satisfied the identity of the grain has l^een preserved.
4b. In ca.se after the shipment has been inspected the owner is of the opinion that the
identity of the grain has not been preserved, he shall notify the warehouseman in writing
of the fact and both parties thereupon shall forward said sample, sealed, charges prepaid, to
thewarehou.se commissioner, who shall submit the same to the Chief Inspector to be graded.
The grade given bv the Chief Inspector in such cases shall be final and binding on both
parties.
No. 10.
That Section 34 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by adding the following
as sub section 1 1 :
11. Provided, however, the elevator operator may hold the bill of lading representing
any stored grain shipjied from his elevator upon demand of the owner thereof until said
owner shall have surrendered the storage receijjts therefor and paid all lawful storage charges
due thereon, provided that it shall l)e an offence under this Act for the elevator operator to
sell or dispose of sucli bill of lading without the consent of the owner of such grain; such
bill of lading to be made out in all cases in the name of the owner of such stored grain.
No. 11.
That Section 36 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be struck out and the following
substituted therefor:
36. In case there is a disagreement between the purchaser or person in the immediate
charge of receiving the grain at such country elevator or warehouse and the jierson delivering
the graiii to such elevator or warehouse for sale, storage or shipment at the time of such
delivery as to the proper grade or dockage for dirt or otherwise on any lot of grain delivered,
a fair and proper sample shall be drawn in the presence of the person delivering the grain
out of each hopper load as delivered, and at least three quarts from samples so taken shall
be forwarded in a suitable sack properly tied and sealed, express charges prepaid, to the
Chief Inspectur of Grain, and shall be accompanied by the request in writing of either or
both of the parties aforesaid, that the Chief Inspector will examine the sample and report
on the grade and dockage the said grain is in his opinion entitled to and would receive if
shipped to the terminal points and subjected to official inspection.
2. It shall l>e the duty of the Chief Inspector, as soon as practicable, to examine and
inspect such sample or samples of grain and to adjudge the proper dockage and grade to
which it is, in his judgment, entitled, and wliich grain of like qualitv and character would
receive if shipped to the terminal points in carload lots and subjected to official inspection.
3. As soon as the Chief Inspector has ,so examined, inspected and adjudged the dockage
and grade he shall make out in writing a statement of his judgment and finding and shall
transmit a copy thereof by mail to each of the parties to the disagreement, preser\-ing the
original together with the sample on file in hi.s office.
4. The judgment and finding of the Chief Inspector on all or any of (he said matters
shall be conclusive.
5. Where the disagreement as to the grade and dockage arises on the sale of the wheat
by a farmer to such country elevator or warehouse, the farmer shall l>e paid on the basis of
grade and dockage offered him by the elevator or warehouse, but the final settlement shall
be made on the basis of grade and dockage given by the Chief Inspector.
No. 12.
That sub section 2 of Section 37 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be struck out and
the following substituted therefor:
2. In case the commissioner finds the complaint and charge therein contained, or anv
part thereof, true, he shall give his decision in writing and shall at once serve a copy of such
28 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
decision upon the person offending and against whom the complaint was made and also
serve a copy upon the owner of such countrj- elevator or country warehouse; and the com-
missioner shall direct such owner to make proper redress to the person injured, and to dis-
charge the offending operator, who shall not be engaged as manager or assistant in any
public country' elevator for the period of one year from such discharge. Upon the failure
of such o\\Tier to give such proper redress and discharge such operator the commissioner
shall cancel the Ucense of the countrj' elevator or warehouse. In ease any other country
elevator or warehouse employs an operator so discharged within the said period of one year
the Warehouse Commissioner shall order the dismissal of such operator, and in case of
refusal to comply with the request of the Warehouse Commissioner in this regard the com-
missioner shall cancel the license of the said country elevator or warehouse.
No. 13.
That Section 37 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by adding thereto the
following sub-section:
3. If any grain dealer or grain firm or any member of such grain firm, or any authorized
agent of such grain dealer or grain firm shall influence, either b}- circular letter or otherwise,
any manager of anj' pubUc countr}' elevator to give unjust weights for or take unjust dockage
from any grain being received into such elevator, such grain dealer or grain firm shall be
liable, upon summarj' con\"iction, to a fine not less than $100 nor more than $500.
No. 14.
That Section 43 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by adding the following
as subsections 2 and 2a: —
ReguLu^tioxs — Gr.vin' Commission Mench.^mts.
2. It shall be the duty of everv- licensed grain commission merchant upon selling any
grain consigned to him for sale upon commission to immediately notify the consignor of the
quantity uf the consignment sold, the names of the purchaser, the price received therefor,
the date of sale, the grade, the amount of advance and the terms and delivery of such sale;
such advice to be signed by the grain commission merchant or his duly appointed agent
and to be duly addressed and mailed to the consignor or personally given to him within
twenty-four hours after such sale.
2a. .'Vnj- grain commission merchant neglecting or refusing to so report on such pre-
scriljed form every such sale in above manner shall be guilty of an offence imder this Act
punishable by fine.
Schedule " E " is the form of notice of sale which has been authorized by His Excellency
the Governor in Council. The use of any other form shall be an offence under the Act
punishable by fine.
GRAIN TRADE OF CANADA
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
SCHEDULE "E."
No.
License year 190 190
License No
LICENSED GRAIN COMMISSION MERCHANTS.
. 190
We advise the following sale made for your account to-day:
Sold to.
Grade.
Price.
Amount
of
Advances.
Terras.
Delivery.
Yours trulv
No. 15.
That Section 58 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by striking out sub-
section 2 and inserting in lieu thereof the following:
2. An applicant may order a car or cars according to his requirements, of any of the
standard sizes in use by the railway company, and in case he requires to order any special
standard size of car shall have such size stated by the station agent in the car order book,
and the railway company shall furnish the size ordered to such applicant in his turn as soon
as a car of such specified capacity can be furnished by the railway company at the point
on the siding designated by the applicant in the car order book. In the event of the railway
companv furnishing a car or cars at any station and such car or cars not being of the size
required by the applicant first entitled thereto, such applicant shall not lose his priority but
shall be entitled to the next car of the size designated which can be delivered at such station
at such applicant's disposal as aforesaid.
30 ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7S EDWARD VII., A. 1908
2a. Every applicant when placing his order for a car shall deposit with the railway
agent the sum of two dollars for each and every car ordered, which amount shall be retained
by the railway agent until the car or cars have been loaded by the apphcant, or until the
order has been cancelled, as hereinafter provided for, when such amount shall be returned
to the applicant.
The applicant or his agent duly appointed as provided in paragraph four hereof may
by notice in writing to the railway agent prior to the arrival of the car at the station to which
it was originally ordered to be sent, cancel the applicant's order for said car ordered bv him,
and in default of his doing so the applicant shall forfeit to the railway company the amount
deposited with the railway agent at the time the order for the car was placed.
No. 16.
The second and third paragraphs of subsection 4 of section 58 of The Manitoba Grain
Act, 1900, are repealed and the following substituted therefor:
'In the event of such apphcant faihng to declare his intention and ability to load the
car allotted to him, he shall forfeit to the railway company the two dollars deposited with
the railway agent at the time the order for the car was placed, and the railway agent shall
cancel the order by writing the word 'cancelled' in the remarks column of the car order
book, and shall award the car to the next applicant entitled to it.'
'And if the apphcant, after declaring his intention and ability as aforesaid shall not
have commenced loading the car within the period of twenty -four hours from the time of
notice to himself or his agent, as herein directed, he shall forfeit to the railway company
the two dollars deposited with the railway agent at the time the order for the car was placed
and the railway agent shall cancel the order in like manner as aforesaid.'
No. 17.
That subsection 5 of section 58 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, is repealed and the
following substituted therefor: —
5. The following shall constitute an offence or offences under this Act punishable upon
summary conviction before a justice of the peace by a line of not less than $25 and not
more than $1.5(1.
(1.) Any parly who transfers or sells his right to any car allotted to him or to be allotted
to him.
(2.) Any party purchasing or taking over ot accepting any assignment or transfer of
the right of any applicant entitled to a car.
(3.) Any parly loading a car which has not lieen allotted to him by the station agent or
who loads a car out of his turn contrary to the provisions of this Act.
5a. Any ])erson who contrary to the provisions of this Act obtains the placing of a name
on the car order book as an applicant shall be guilty of an offence punishable upon summnry
conviction before a justice of the peace by a fine of not less than $25 and not more than $150.
5b. Any person may institute proceedings and u])on securing a conviction for infringe-
ment of any of the above violations of this Act sliall be entitled to receive one-half of the
fine or penally imposed, and the other half thereof shall be paid into the Manitoba grain
inspection fund.
No. 18.
Subsection 9 of .section 58 of The Manitoba Grain .\ct, 10(H), is re|>calod and the following
substituted therefor:—
9. ' Car orders sliall In- signed in the car order book by the ap|ilicanl or his agent duly
appointed in writing who shall furnish to the railway agent his name, section, township.
ORAIN TRADE OF CAXADA 31
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
and range in which he resides, or other sufficient designation of his residence for insertion
in the car order book, and each car order shall be consecutively numbered in the car order
book by the railway agent who shall fill in with ink all particulars of the application except
in the column for the applicant's signature, which shall be signed by the applicant or by
his agent duly a|)pointcd. '1 he authority of the said agent of applicant shall be deposited
with the railway agent."
Sub.section 10 of section 58 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1000, is amended by inserting
in the second line thereof after the word "enter" and in the sixth line after the word "book,"
the words 'with ink.'
No. 19.
'Ihat section 62 of The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, be amended by inserting the follow-
ing subsections: —
Regulations — Track Btn-ER's Purchase Note.
1a. Any person who buys grain on track in ear load lots, shall keep a true and correct
account in writing in proper books of all grain bought by him in such car load lots and shall
deliver to the vendor of such car load lot of grain a grain purchase note, retaining himself
a duplicate thereof, which note shall bear on its face the license season, also the license
numljer of such track Iniyer's license; the date and place of purchase: the name and
address of such track buyer; the name and address of the vendor; the initial letter and
number of the car purchased; the approximate number of bushels and kind of grain con-
tained therein; the purchase price per bushel in store Fort William, Port Arthur or other
destination; such grain purchase note shall also express upon its face an acknowlegdement
of the receipt of the bill of lading issued by the railway company for such car load shipment,
the amount of cash paid to the vendor in advance as part jjayment on account of such car
lot purchase, also that the full balance of the purchase money shall be paid to the vendor
immediately the purchaser shall have received the grade and weight certificates and the
railway expense bill. Every such grain purchase note shall be signed by the track buyer
or his duly appointed agent, and the vendor shall endorse his acceptance of the terms of
the sale thereon as well as his receipt for pajTnent of the money advanced him on account
of such car load lot sale.
1b. Any failure or neglect on the part of the track buyer to keep proper records of all
car lot purchases as above or to issue such grain purchase note shall be an offence under
the Act punishable by fine.
Ic. Schedule "F" is the form of grain purchase note which has been authorized by
His Excellency the Governor in Council. The use of any other furm shall l^e an offence
under this Act punishable by fine.
SCHEDULE "F".
Xo
License Season 190 190
PURCHASE NOTE MADE OUT BY LICENSED TRACK BU\'ER.
License No
Station 190 .
I have this day bought from '. . . initial letter car No. . . . ■
containing bushels (more or less) at cents per bushel basis in
store Fort William or Port Arthur, weight and grade guaranteed by seller.
32 ROYAL COMMlSSIOy OX THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Receipt of bill of lading for same property endorsed by the consignee is hereby
acknowledged.
I have made an advance to Mr
I have issued an order to pajing agent to I
advance Mr $ on j
this car, the balance to be paid by
immediately upon receipt of weight and grade certi-
ficates and railroad expense bill.
REMARKS:
Buyer,
Accepted, also received payment of advance, $
Seller.
No. 20.
That the following be added to The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, as Section 63: —
63. At every flag station or siding in the Manitoba grain inspection district where
grain is shipped from such j)oint, the warehouse commissioner may in his discretion direct
the railway company to keep a suitable person at such flag station or siding from the loth
day of September to the 15th day of January next following, and it shall be the duty of
such person to receive all applications for cars for the shipment of grain from such flag
station or siding upon the form prescribed by this Act and to order from the railway com-
pany such cars and to allot said cars to applicants in accordance therewith and to bill and
seal such cars.
Provided, however, the provisions of this section do not apply to such flag stations or
sidings where the total amount of prain sliipments fur the previous year was less than fifty
thousand bushels vipon the railway company furnishing the commissioner with a sworn
statement to that effect.
Any railway company failing to comply with the aforesaid provisions shall be liable to
a penalty upon summary conviction before a magistrate or justice of the peace of not less
than $500.
No. 21.
That the following be inserted in The Manitoba Grain Act, 1900, as Section 64: —
G-1. The warehouse commissioner shall have power in liis discretion to order cars to
be supplied contrary to the provisions of The Grain Act to elevators that are in danger of
colla])se, or in cases where the operator of any country elevator or warehouse reports in
writing under oath that some portion of the grain in his elevator or warehouse is heated,
and in onlcr to |>rescrve same it is necessary to ship such healed grain to the terminal elevator
for treatment. Provided, however, no relief be granted in such last mentioned cases
as long as the warehouseman has plenty of room in his building for the re-handling of .such
grain.
Upon granting relief as aforesaid the wnrehou.se commi.ssioner .shall sub'itil a report
of the facts thereof in each case to the Minister.
IIRAIX TH.\I)E OF V.l.\AJ).\ 33
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
No. 22.
'I'liiil llic l'i)lli)uiiif; lie iiisi-rk-cl in 'I lie M;iiiit<)l);i (iiaiii Act, I'.lOU, ;is Section 6.5: —
()5. N«i [KTson or coriMjralion, or Ihcir agents, operatinf; a jiublic country elevator or
warehouse sliall enter into any contract, ajjreement, untlerstandiu}; or conil)ination with
any other such ])erson, corporation, or their agent, for the pooUng or division of earnings or
receipts of su<-h elevators or warehouses or divide with any such |X'rsi)n or corporation, or
their agent, the gross or net earnings or receipts of such public country elevators or ware-
houses or any portion thereof.
Any one violating this provision shall Im- guilty of an offence under this Act. and .shall
on suinuinry conviction l>c liable to a line of not less tli.in if.jliO and not more than $1.(1(10
for each oH'eucc.
No. 23.
That the following be added to The Manitoba Grain Act, 19(10, as section ( (>: —
66. The warehouse commissioner shall have power in his discretion during a car
shortage to direct the railroads to make an equitable distribution of em|)ty grain cars to all
stations in pro|K)rtion to the amount of grain available for shipment from such stations.
No. 24.
Th t the foil wing Ik- inserted in The Manitoba Grain Act. I'.tOd. as .s<'ciion (17: —
67. All grain billed to any public terminal elevator within the Manitoba inspection
Division shall not leave such Inspection Division without lieing officially weighed and
cleaned unless by the consent of the shi|)per.
AMENDMKXrS I'O (iU.MN INSPKCTIOX ACT.
No. 1.
That the following be added as <lause (I,) of Section 2 of 'j'lic (Jrain Inspection .Vet: —
(L) The expression ""hard red Fife Wheat'" .shall mean wheat that is red in colour and
of the Red Fife variety.
No. 2.
That paragraph (h) of Section 6 of The Grain In.speetion Act lie amended by strikine
out the words "Province of Manitoba" in the second line and inserting in lieu thereof thg
words "Provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta."
No. 3.
That Section 72 of The Grain Inspection Act \v anicndcil by striking out the wonls
"other than oats" at the end of the second and l)eginning of the third lines thereof.
No. 4.
That Section 7.5 of The Grain Insj)ection Act be amended by striking out all the words
after the word "fee" in the eleventh line, and inserting in lieu thereof: "railway companies
or other transportation companies shall notifv the Insjiection Department of the arrival of
59—3
34 ROYAL CUlIMIS&IUX ON TUB
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
cars of grain at points where inspection is authorized and of their position in the railway
yard, and shall not move such cars until they have been notified by the Inspection Depart-
ment that the sampling of the grain is completed."
No. 5.
That Section 75 of The Grain Inspection Act be amended by adding the following
sub section:
2. "Should any car on arrival at terminal elevators be found by the inspector tf) be
plugged or wrongfully loaded with intent to deceive, the grain in such car shall be re-in-
spected, and should the first inspection be altered the original certificate shall lie recalled
and a new one issued in accordance with the re-inspection and shall be final."
No. 6.
That the following be inserted in The Grain Inspection Act as Sections 78a and 78b : —
78a. All grain stored as aforesaid shall be binned under the direction, supervision and
control of the Inspector, Deputy Inspector or Inspecting Officer. Such Inspector, Deputy
Inspector, or Inspecting Officer shall have full control of all grain in such terminal elc\ator
and no grain shall \k' shippctl out, transferred or removed therefrom without his authurity.
The Inspector shall keep proper records of all grain received into store in su<'li
elevator, which records shall show the particulars of each parcel or car lot of grain received,
the date received, the grade, the dockage (if any) and the bin number in which such grain
has been stored, and he shall keep. similar records of all grain shipped from such elevator
which shall also give the name of the vessel or the number of the car into which such grain
has been dehvered.
No grain shall be transferred from one bin to another in such elevator without the
authority of the proper Inspecting Officer who shall record such transfer in proper books.
Pro\'ided, however, that no grain shall be specially binned for any ]>erson, firm or cor-
poration in any terminal elevator within this division except in cases where it is found to be
out of condition on arrival at such terminal, and in cases where it has gone out of condition
while in store as prt)vided in Section L'G of The iManitolia Grain Act, 1900.
2, All grain marked by the Inspection Department for cleaning shall be cleaned under
the supervision of such Inspection Department or Lisj)ecting Officer before being binned,
and such Inspector may condem any cleaning machine which in his opinion is not doing
satisfactory work and order machines installed wliich will satisfactorily clean such grain
to its proper grade, and he shall also have the jiower where he finds the cleaning facilities
inadequate to order the installation of such additional machines as will meet the require-
ments.
3. Where grain rejected for dirt is ordered to be cleaned by the owner the cleaning
sliall be subject to the supervision of the Inspecting Officer.
78b. 'i'he Chief Ins[)ector subject to the approval of the Minister of Trade and Com-
merce may make such rules and regulations as shall be nec-essary for the control of the bin-
ning and cleaning of all grain stored in terminal elevators including the transferring of grain
from one bin to another, and the delivery of grain from the bins into ears, vessels or other
receptacles.
No. 7.
That Section 7(1 of The Grain Inspection Ad \h- amended by inserting the following
as sub section 2 thereof: —
2. The Chief Inspector shall issue such rules an<l regulations governing the inspection
and outward shipmeiist of grain from I'ort William as will .satisfactorily identify the ins[x;ction
certificates with the lake l>ill or the railway shipping bill and the lot or parcel of grain covered
by such certificate.
OltAlN TRADE OF CANADA 35
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
No. 8.
Tliat Seclion SI of The Grain Inspection Act be amended by inserting between llio word
"accordingly" and tlie word "provided" in the seventeenth line thereof the following:
"If the owner or possessor so desires he may call for a fresh sample to be drawn by the
Inspection Department for use on re-inspection or suney; and in case it lie drawn for the
purpose of sur\-ey it shall lx> sent to the secretary of the survey lx)ard.
No. 9.
That The Grain Inspection .\ct be amended by striking out section S2 thereof.
No. 10.
That section S7 be amended by striking out all the words in the section after the word
'certified' in the fourth line and inserting in lieu thereof, 'He shall also state in his certificate
the percentage of dirt contained in grain inspected by him as rejected l)ecause of too much
dirt. In case such dockage contains a proportion of domestic grain the percentage of same
shall also be marked on the certificate.'
No. 11.
That section 88 of The Grain Inspection Act be amended by inserting at the end of the
definitions of the grades of winter wheat, the following: —
No. 1 Alberta wliite wheat shall be pure, white winter wheat, sound and clean, weighing
not less than sixty pounds to the bushel.
No. 2 Alberta white winter wheat shall be white winter wheat, sound and clean, weighin"
not less than fifty-eight pounds to the bushel.
No. 3 ^Mberta white winter wheat shall include white winter wheat not clean enough
nor sound enough to be graded as No. '2, weighing not less than fifty-six pounds to the bushel.
No. 12.
That section 89 of The Grain Inspection Act l>e amended by inserting at the beginning
of the definitions of the grades of oats the. following: — "
No. 1 Alberta oats shall be white, sound, clean and free from other grain; shall contain
95 per cent of white oats and shall weigh not less than forty-two pounds to the l)nshel.
No. 13. '
That section 89 of The Grain Inspection Act be amended by inserting under the heading
of ' Spring WTieat,' and after the definition of 'No. 2 Manitoba Northern Wheat ' the following
clause : — -
No. 1 ^laaitoba bleached wheat shall contain wheat slightly bleached by weather con-
tlitions, and tough and slightly damp wheat that has been pro[)erly treated and fit for storing,
all of which in the discretion of the inspector has not Ijeen injured for milling purposes, anil
that otherwise would have graded one hard or one northern, and weighing not less than
sixty pounds to the bushel.
No. U.
That section 89 of The Grain Inspection .\et be amended by inserting under the heading
of 'Spring Wieat," and after the definition of "No. 1 Manitoba bleached wheat' (as suggested
in amendment 1.3), the following clause: —
'Red varieties of spring wheat, other than Red Fife, may Ix^ graded one nothern or
lower, in the discretion of the inspector.'
36 R0T.1L COMMISSION' O.V THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX 'C."
PROVISIONS AS TO WEIGHING.
No. 1.
The Governor in Council may appoint a chief weigh-niaster whose duties and powers
shall he defined by Order in Council, and may also in any place where inspection of grain
is authorized by the Grain Inspection Act in the inspection district t)f Manitoba as defined
by cha|)ter 2.5 of the Statutes of 1809, or where is situate any public terminal elevator, or in
elevators east of Fort William and Port Artlmr which receive ^Manitoba grain for storage or
transliipment doing business for compensation, appoint a weigh-maslcr and such assistants
as are necessary, and such weigh-masters and assistants shall receive such compensation
by fees or otherwise as determinefl by the Governor in Council.
(2) The chief weigli-master and every weigh-master or assistants so a|)pointed shall
before exercising the duties of his office subscribe to an oath of office and furni.sh a guarantee
bond in such amount as the Minister of Trade and Commerce directs.
(3) The weighmasters and assistants shall be under the direction of the chief weigh-
master who shall have the right of dismissal of any weighmaster or assistant for cause.
No. 2.
The chief weighmaster shall have supervision over the weighing of all grain in any
place in the Manitoba division where inspection of grain is authorized under the (iraiu
In.spection Act, or where is situate any public elevator, ami shall have sujiervision of the
receiving, binning and weighing in any elevator or warehouse east of Fort William and
I'orl Arthur liandHng or storing Manitoba grain for a conipensaliim.
No. 3.
The chief weighniasler may direct the removal of any scale which in his ojiinion is
unsuitable for the weighing of grain, and may order the installation of .scales of a type and
capacity a])proved of by hi'm. In ea.se the chief weighmaster or superintendent believes
anv scales to be weiyhing inaccurately he may order the discontinuance of the use of such
sc'ales |)<Mi(ling llie insjH'cliiiM thereof In llic lMspi'ct<ir of Weights and Measures.
No. 4.
Every su<'h wi'igliiiuisler or as^islanl >iiall give ujion demand lo anv person having
weighing done by him a certificate under his hand, .showing the amount of each weighing,
the nund)er of each car or cargo weighed, the initial of the car, the place where weighed,
the date of weighing, and the contents of the car or cargo, and .such certificate shall l)e in
all cases |)rima facie evideiu'c of the facts therein set forth.
(2) .\ii extrail from the record kept by any weigh-nui.ster or as.sistaut In pursuance of
the next following section of this .\ct, certified by the chief weighmaster or by any weigh-
master or assistanl. shall l)e nrim.-i facie evidence of llii- facts .set forth in such extract.
GRAIN TRADE OF CANADA 37
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
No. 5.
All weigliiiiastcr and tlicir assistants shall make true wci}i;hts, under the j)enaltics in
this Act provided, and keep a eorreet record i>f all \vei};hing clone by them at the ])laces for
which tiiey are a|)pointed. in which record shall he entered an accurate account of all grain
weighed, or the weighing of wliich was supervised by them or their assistants, giving the
amount of cftch weight, the number of each car weighed, the initial letter of each car or the
name of each vessel, the place where weighed, the date of weighing and the contents of the
car or cargo.
No. 6.
The fees for the weighing of grain shall lie such as are determined by the Governor in
Co\incil. who may from time to time increase or reduce them.
No. 7.
The chief weigh-master may adopt rules and regulations for the weigliing of grain in
his division subject to the approval of the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
No. 8.
If any owner, lessee or other occupant of any elevator to which a weigh-master or assis-
tant weigh-mastcr has l)een a|)])oinfed under this Act, by himself or by his agent or employee,
refuses or prevents a weigh-master or any of his assistants from having access to such elevator
or to any scales therein or connected therewith, in the regular performance of their duties
in supervising the weighing of grain in accordance with this Act, he shall, upon summarj'
conviclion. l)e liable to a penalty not exceeding one hundred dollars for each offence.
No. 9.
The oath of office reciuired under this Act, taken l)y the chief weigh-master, weigh-
master or assistant weighmaster, shall be transmitted to and be tiled in the department,
and the justice of the peace administering the oath shall keep in his custody a copy thereof
certified by him as sucli; and any copy so certified by such justice of the peace or by the
l)e])uty Mitn'ster of Trade and Commerce shall 1* jirima facie evidence of such oath.
No. 10.
For the purpose of verifying any statement made by a weighmaster of the quantity of
grain weighed by him at any elevator, the l>ooks kept in connection with such elevator shall
at all limes be open to inspection l)y any authorized officer of the department.
No. 11.
\\\y person who directly or indirectly gives or offers, or promises to give, or procure o
lie given, any brilx-, recompense, or reward to, or makes any collusive agreement with, any
weighmaster or assistai\t, or who makes use of or threatens to make use of, any force,
violence or restraint, or inflicts or threatens the iufiiction of any injury or loss upon any
weighmaster or assistant, or upon any other jierson in order to improperly influence such
weighmaster or assistant in the ])erfomiance of his duties under this Act, is guilty of an
indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a
penalty not exceeding two hundred dollars, or to both.
38
ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX *D.
CAR ORDER BOOK.
Dat«
Order.
.Station.
To be placed at
Capacity of car
Destination
Date when supplied..
Date when cancelled .
Date when loaded
No. car supplied
I hereby declare by myself or agent appointed in
writing that at time of making this order I am the
actual owner of a car lot of grain for shipment.
(Applicant's signature).
(Agent's signature)
CAR ORDER HOOK.
Date
Order,
1
Station .
To be placed at
Capacity of car
Destination
Date when suppUed
Date when cancelled
Date when loaded .' . . .
No. car supplied
I hereby acknowledgp receipt of 32.00 fee with
tliia order to be returned when this car is loadcil,
or cancelled before being siipplied.
(Station agent's signature.)
APPENDIX 'E.'
lion. Siu Richard Cartoright, K.C.M.G.
Minister of Trade and Commerce,
Ottawa, Ont.
Winnipeg, Felmmry 1, Hi(i7
Sir, — In pursnance of the coinnumication of the 23rd January from vdui- Dcparliiu-nl,
enclosing copy of leltcr from nicnilx-rs of llie House of Commons to the Hiu;lil Honourable
Premier, askinj; that the Uoyal Grain Commission he iiistruetod to specilically investigate
the status of terminal elevators, and to report thereon >\itliout wailing for the completeon
of its general report, we would say we have already investigated the satus of the elevators at
l''orl William, but we are not ])repared, and do not think il wouKl Ik- advisable to complete
our re|)orl now on the Fort William elevators, owing to the fact that we nuisl of necessity
deal with all other elevators handling wheat to the eastward, and the fact that our findings
in Great lirilairi may have an important bearing on the report. We cannot, therefore, go
any further at present than to report as follows: —
1. We find that there is only one group of elevators now in Fort William owned and
operated by a common carrier, namely, the elevators of the Canadian Pacific l{ailway Co.
.Vnother elevator (commoidy known as King's), while owned by the Canadian Pacific Rail-
way Co., is operate(l by a private company, but solely for the ]iurpose of handling olf grades
.iiid dirty grain. In our report we will have lo deal s|ieciallv with this elevator.
2. We find tiiat the Cana<lian Northern elevator, while owned by the Canadian Northern
Railway ('o., is leased and operated l)y the Hrilish American Elevator Co., which is a Can-
adian brunch of the I'eavy f'ompany of Minnca|>olis, wlii<-h is engaged in the grain business.
(1UM\ TUAIIi: OF VA.SADA 39
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 59
3. We find that the Empire elevator is owned and operated by a private corporation,
stockholders of whicli are also stockholders in four of the largest elevator companies in
the west.
4. We believe that it is the purpose of a i)rivate corporation to build an elevator on
the Kamiiiistikwia river at Fort William, to l>e known as the Western elevator, the share-
holders of which arc nieral)ers of grain dealing firms.
5. The Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Co. say it is not in a position to give definite
information as to the operation of its elevators, but from its reply and from other sources
of information wc have reason to believe it is the intention to lease its elevators to a private
coqioration, and among the stockholders of this private corporation we understand there
arc stockholders of corporations engaged in the grain Ijusiness.
(i. We find that there is another elevator being built by the Ogihne ^lilling Co. to replace
the one which was wTecked in the spring of 1900. We understand this com|)any purposes
[lutting its elevator on the same basis as the other terminal elevators for the purpose of
handling grain of all kinds owned by any shipper who may wish to make use of its building.
As this elevator is designed no doubt largely for its own use as a milling company, we would
require time for the consideration of what restrictions should be put upon it, and the matter
will he dealt with in our full report.
7. We find it has been the tendency at Fort William for elevators to go under the control
of private companies and we tjelieve tliis tendency will continue. These j)rivate companies
through their allied companies buying grain in the country are able to secure shipments of
grain to their terminal elevators, and are thus in an advanUigeous position to compete with
the elevators of common carriers, who have no control over the destination of grain carried
by them.
8. We believe the o|)erating of terminal elevators by private companies under the pre-
sent resriilations would Ije detrimental to the interests of the trade, and would tend to destroy
pubUc confidence in the results obtained therefrom. Our reasons for believing this are,
that the elevator companies (if they so wished) would lie able to manipulate the grades for
their own lienefif, and not to clean the grain up to the dockage set by the Government
inspector.
9. The fact that an elevator is owned and operated by a railway company does not
with the presnt regulations, in our opinion, necessarily insure protection to the pubUc. We
would like, however, to see the elevators at prsent owned, or to lie owned, by the railways
operated by them.
10. To prevent the evils that are made possible by the operation of terminal elevators
under the present system, we do not think it wise to advise the Government to go to the
length of taking over the terminal elevators or of prohibiting persons engaged in the grain
trade Ix-ing interested in such terminals. We In-lieve it is ]X)ssible to obtain a good service
from these elevators under the present ownership by having a more thorough system of
supervision and" control.
11. From the correspondence we assume you expect us to report on a plan which wouhl
be satisfactory for the operating of those terminal elevators, but the matter o|H'ns u[) such
a large ipiestion. and involves so many interests and .so many phases of the trade that we do
not feel it would be wise to report on tliis matter at the presen time.
We have the honour to be. Sir,
Your olxidient servants,
JNO. MII-LAR.
W. L. McNAIR,
GEO. E. GOLDIE.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 70 A. 1908
REPORT
(70)
Of the Ottawa Improvement Commission for the nine months ended March 31, 1907.
As will be seen by the financial statement attached, the sum of $42,618.24 was
received for debentures during the period covered by this report, three more having
been sold to the Bank of Ottawa. There now remains only one to be disposed of, the
last of the series of sixteen issued under the Act of 1903.
The expenditure for construction was $49,998.84, and for maintenance and repairs,
$14,135.42.
The work done was as follows: —
King Edward Avenue — $690.13.
At the northern end of the avenue the sodding of the boulevard was completed
and a row of elm trees planted on each side of the roadway.
King Edward Avenue Park — $4,381.90.
The work done consisted in grading and finishing the walks with shale and in
grading, levelling and sodding the surface of the park. A fountain composed of
concrete was constructed in the middle of the park and three sets of concrete steps
were placed on the avenue side of th park opposite the streets running west, !^[aple
trees were planted at intervals along the walks, and where the walks intersected flower
beds were laid out. Along the southern boundary of the park a small plantation of
evergreen shrubs was made.
Clemow Avenue — $76.13.
Some dead elm trees were taken out and new ones put in their place. The roadwajr
from Concession street to Bank street was rolled.
Monhland Avenue — $141.60.
The expenditure was for quarrying and breaking some stone to be used next year
on the roadway.
Rideau Canal Driveway^^&^Q.lZ.
A part of the land just beyond the subway and l.ving between Pretoria and
Strathcona avenues were graded, levelled and sodded. About 2,100 cubic yards of
filling was deposited near the end of ^lutchniore street, near the Eideau canoe club
house, to raise to the proper level some low-lying ground at that place.
Patterson's Creek Pari-s— $4,338.83.
A stone wing wall was built on each side of the bridge crossing the creek at
O'Connor street. Over 1,200 lineal feet of dry stone wall, 3 feet wide on top and 7
feet high, were built around the sides of that portion of the creek reaching from
Clemow avenue to the canal. The wall around the sides of the creek was backed by
quarry filling drawn from the quarry on the government reserve on Bell street. The
70—1
2 OTTAWA HIPROrEME\T COilillSSION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
bed of the creek was cleaned and the material taken out was used to fill in behind the
wall.
Strathcona Parle — $1,826.24.
That part of the boulder wall facing the river and extending from Somerset street,
to within a hundred yards of the southern end of the park, was finished, and about
1,300 lineal feet of concrete coping placed on top of the wall. The southern part of the
park, reaching south from Somerset street, was graded, levelled and sodded, forming
an area of about two acres to be used as a playground. The elevation at this end was
terraced and the slopes sodded. A walk eight feet wide was set out around the play-
ground and along the top of the terrace and covered with syenite screenings from the
crusher. A set of concrete stairs was built in the slope of the terrace. Elms and
maples were planted along the walk and edges of the playground, and a length of "about
300 feet of macadamized roadway constructed.
Somerset Street Parfc— $2,828.93.
This park, containing a little over two acres, forms the square lying between
Somerset, Bay, McLaren and Lyon streets. The site was graded, levelled and covered
with good soil, on which about 6.500 square yards of sodding were laid. A walk 8
feet wide was set out near the outer edges of the park running along the four sides
and parallel to the streets. Two other walks extending diagonally across the square
from its four corners were laid out. These walks were covered with finely broken
white stone (feldspar), and form a pleasing contrast to the green sward. A circular
fountain made of concrete, with an inside diameter of 24 feet, was placed in the centre
of the park and the necessary connections made with the city water service. A rockery
svas built around the fountain and four sets of concrete steps reaching from the
ground to the top of the basin were constructed. On either side of the fountain two
large circular flower beds were laid out. Five sets of concrete steps, three on L.von
street and one each on Somerset and McLaren streets, were placed at points where the
level of the park is above the street level. At each of the entrances to the park a
concrete foundation was set in the ground to serve as a base for a large flower vase,
ilaple trees were planted on the border of the outer walk, and a few of the trees
which were planted some years ago on the street line were removed and placed in a
better location,
Eockliffe PorZ;— $1,254.58.
A fence of iron pipe and wire, about 2,700 feet in length, was built along the
road reaching from the street-car pavilion to the Xational Park, and opposite the
street-car pavilion was placed an iron gate with a brass railing leading to it. Two
summer houses and a kiosk were put up and about a dozen rustic benches of ornn-
metal design built around the trunk of trees in different parts of the park.
It is interesting to note that when in Ottawa last spring. Prince Arthur visited
Rockliffe Park on several occasions, on one of which. April 22, 1906, in company
w-ith His Excellency Earl Grey, Mr. IL N. Bate, Chairman of the Commission,
Commissioners Jos. Riopelle and C. R. Cunningham, and Dr. Wni. Saunders, Director
of Dominion Experimental Farms, he planted three blue spruces. The trees arc grow-
ing well and will be indicated by tablets bearing the name of the Prince and the date
of planting.
National Port— $33,828.72.
One mile of macadamized road, extending from the bridge near McKav's or
Hemlock lake to the rifle range, was completed and on either side was laid n line of
3-inch agricultural tiles to provide projier drainage. A row of elm trees, spaced 45
feet apart, was planted along each side of the mile of roadway. Along the bank of
the river several large gullies, caused by landslides in fornjcr years, were filled in,
OTTAWA l\ll'r{(>VEME\T COMMIfiSIOV
3
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 70
about 20,0(10 cubic yards of material being used for this purpose. Stone drains run-
ning from the south to the Ottawa river were laid at intervals across the park. These
drains are 4 feet deep by 2 feet wide and have, in all, a length of about 10,000 feet.
It is expected that these drains will prevent any further trouble from landslides and
provide ample drainage for the park.
Some 200 toise of stone were quarried in the vicinity of the park, and half of it
broken up for use on a roadway around McKay's lake, the other half being used for
the drains. The ravine extending from the lake to the river, and which is thickly
studded with large trees, was underbrushed and cleaned up.
Green and Maple Island — $631.72.
A quantity of earth tilling, &c., was deposited on the islands and some grading
and levelling done.
Maintenance — 14,135.42.
A force of labourers and sub-foremen were employed as usual in taking care of
the different works. The exix>nditure for this service was as follows : —
Strathcona Park $ 1,039 20
Kockliffe Park 2,022 62
King Edward Avenue 1,980 38
Somerset Street Park 39 00
Rideau Canal Driveway 8,888 14
Minto Bridge 166 08
Total $14,135 42
The commission learned with sincerest regret of the death of Sir William H.
Kingston, which occurred on the 17th February, 1907. Sir William was appointed to
the commission on June 17th, 1902, and although his public and professional duties
made large demands on his time, he always took a deep interest in the commission's
operations. His death is a loss not onlj- to his fellow-members, but to the medical
profession and the public life of Canada, in both of which he had attained high and
honoured rank.
By the death of ilr. Robert Surtees, C.E., which occurred on the 29th September,
1906, the commission was also deprived of the service of a most capable officer. When
the commission was organized in December, 1899, Mr. Surtees was appointed engineer,
and, until failing health obliged him, some months before his death, to relinquish his
labours, he designed all the commission's works and superintended their execution,
discharging his duties in a most efficient and satisfactory manner.
H. N. BATE.
Chairman.
STEPHEN E. O'BRIEN
Secretary.
Ottawa, December 11, 1907.
4 OTTAWA IMPROVEMENT COMMISSION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
THE OTTAWA IMPROVEMENT COMMISSION.
Statement of Receipts and Exjwnditures up to 31st March, 1907.
For 9 months
ending
31st Mar., '07. Total.
Beceipts.
Balance on hand 1st July, 1906 $ 1,750 97
Government grant 45,000 00 $465,000 00
Debentures 42,618 24 256,930 45
Interest 1,330 31
Miscellaneous 50 00 2,704 74
On deposit savings bank. Bank of Ottawa 5,000 00
$94,419 21 $725,965 50
Expenditure.
Princess Louise vista $ 5,864 14
Road, Rideau Hall grounds 1,053 86
City streets 15,512 24
Storage shed 2,246 52
Minto bridge 41,152 74
Minto bridge maintenance 166 08 3,725 69
Baxter property 5,420 73
Keefer property 2,350 64
Keefer & McKay lots, N.E 1,214 73 1,214 73
C.A.R. subway 13,197 24
Causeway over Bow's lake 24,315 85
Cartier square 213 34
King Edward avenue 92,237 39
King Edward avenue maintenance 1,980 3S 7,308 40
King Edward avenue park 4,38190 12,120 23
Rideau canal driveway maintenance 8,888 14 39,289 82
Rideau canal driveway 690 13 168,608 03
Somerset street park 2,828 93 3,410 74
Somerset street park maintenance 39 00 39 00
National park 33,828 72 91,247 48
Stratheona park 1,826 24 45,605 18
Strathoona park maintenance 1,039 20 1,297 97
Roekliffe park 1,254 58 5,860 57
Rockliffe park maintenance 2,022 62 5,832 80
Clemow avenue 76 13 23.013 30
Monkland avenue 141 66 5.653 18
Green and Maple islands 631 72 7,290 58
Patterson Creek parks 4,338 83 4,338 83
Contingencies 686 12 5,439 10
Office expenses 211 70 2,790 45
Printing and advertising 9 75 864 02
Syenite 3,514 75
Road machinery 95 00 11,597 38
Interest 528 70 1,889 63
Debentures 21,455 00 64.365 00
$88,335 26 $719,881 55
Balance on hand 6,083 95 6,083 95
$94,419 21 $725,965 50
STEPHEN E. O'BRIEN, Secretary.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b , A. 1908
(74b)
Return to Addresses of the House of Commons, dated the 12th and 18th December,
1907, for a copy of all correspondence between the Government of Canada and
the Imperial authorities, and a copy of all correspondence between the Govern-
ment of Canada and any person or persons, and of all reports communicated to
the Government in respect to the Anglo-Japanese convention regarding Canada ;
also relating to the immigration of Chinese and Japanese into Canada.
E. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
8-9 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b A. 1909
I^etter N"o. 47.
Provinxe of British Columbia.
Government Hoise, Victoria, May 6, 1897.
To the Honourable The Secretary of State of Canada,
Ottawa,
i^m. — r have the honour to transmit herewith a certified copy of an approved
Minute of the 30th ulto., embodying a resolution of the Legislative Assembly now
in session relative to the present unrestricted immigration of Japanese into Canada.
E. IJEWDXEY.
Lieuienatit-Governor.
Cfrtified copy of a report of a committee of the Honourable the Executive Council
approved by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor on the 30th day of April, 1S97.
The Committee of Council submit for the approval of His Honour the Lieuten-
jint-Governor the undermentioned resolution of the Legislative Assembly, namely: —
Whereas Her Majesty's Government have entered into a treaty with the Empire
of Japan, whereby, among other articles, it is provided that any of Her Majesty's
colonies may become parties to the said treaty, on applying to do so within a specified
period : and
Whereas this province, from its geographical position is more immediately
brought face to face with the question of Asiatic immigration than other provinces
of the Dominion; and
^Miereas the legislature have repeatedly expressed their opinion that such immi-
giation should be restricted;
Resolved that a respectful Address be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant-
Governor, praying him to convey to the Dominion Government the respectful request
of that House that, should His Excellency's Government decide to become parties
t ' the aforesaid treaty, they will make such stipulations as will prevent the unre-
stricted -umigration of Japanese into Canada.
The committee advise that a copy of this Minute if approved, be forwarded to
the Honourable the Secretar.v of State.
Victoria, April 29, 1897.
JAMES BAKER,
Clerk, Executive Council.
P. C. 243 K.
Letter No. 57.
Province of British Columbia.
Government House, Victobu, May 17, 1897.
Tc the Honourable The Secretary of State of Canada,
Ottawa.
Sir, — I have the honour to transmit, herewith, for the information of His
Excellency the Governor General in Council, a copy of a letter received from His
Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul for Canada, in reference to the Bill allude<;l to
in my despatch of the 14th inst., relating to the employment of Chinese or Japanese
persons on works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts.
E. DEWDXEY,
Lieut enant-Govenwr.
74b— 1
2 AXOLO-JAPAXESE COyVEyTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
Imperial Consulate of Japan,
Vancou\'er, B.C., 13th May, 1897
To the Hon. Edgar Dewdney,
Lieut. Governor, B.C.
SiRj — I have the honour of informing you that I have, in the name of His Im-
perial Japanese Majesty's Government to protest against you giving assent to any
and all Bills, preventing the employment of the Japanese subjects on works cariied
on under franchise granted by private Acts. This action on the part of the British
Columbia Legislature is entirely contrary to the principles of the treaties now existing
between Japan and Great Britain, by which the Japanese, unlike the Chinese, are
jirotected from being placed under any discriminative laws in any of Her Britannic
Majesty's Dominions and possessions.
I deem it therefore my right and duty to protest against your giving assent to any
Bills containing clauses preventing the employment of the Japanese subjects.
It is the most unprovoking attacks ever made against the interest and dignity of
the Japanese. I beg leave to call serious attention to the particular fact that there
exists, in connection with the passage of these Bills for the insertion of the word
'Japanese' was effected by the members of the local legislatures, without one word of
discu-ssion or even explanation. It makes me doubt if it was done through some
political animosities again^^t the Japanese residents in the Province, but I hardly
need to explain that in accordance with the existing treat.v between Japan and Great
Britain the Japanese subjects residing in the Dominion of Canada are entitled to the
same privileges, liberties and rights, as they are freely enjoyed by the Canadian
citizens in Japan. I see no reason why these rights could be rejected to the Japanese
by the British Columbia Government, while she is one of Her British Majesty's
possessions.
I beg further leave to state that I deem it my duty to ask you that you will deal
with this important question with every justice and propriety so that the privileges
and rights hitherto fully enjoyed by the Japanese subjects in this Province, shall be
lawfully respected and protected according to the treaty obligations.
T. NOSSE,
II.I.J.M's Cojistil for Canada.
Imperl\l Consulate op Japan,
Vancouver, B.C., May, 19. 1897.
His KxcclKncy tlie (invernor (leneral,
kc, &c., &c.
&)u. Your E.xcelle-nc'V, — I have the honour of cal]i))g Your Excellency's serious
attention to my telgraphic message which was forwarded to you on the 17th inst. rela-
tive to the Anti-Japauese bills wliich have been submitted by Lieutenant (Jovernor
Dewdney to Y'^our Excellency's decision.
I beg leave to state that the British Columbia I>egislaturcs, during their last
sessions, have more than once passed bills prohibiting the employment of the Japanese
subjects on works carried on under franchise granted by private acts.
I beg therefore further leave to protest, in the name of His Imperial Majesty's
Government, against Your Excellency giving assent to any and all Bills of whatever
nature which may tend to the discrimination of the Japanese subjects from other
civili/.ed nations.
I also iH'g to call Your E.xcellency's serious attention to tli(> piirlicular facts, which
exist in connection with the pa.^sage.of these bills in tbe British (Vilumbia LegLslatures
for the insertion f>f the word 'Jiipanese'was effei'ted by tlie members without one woixl
f 1 discussion or even explauntion. It nnikes me doulit if it were done tlirough some
politcal aiiiniosities against the .Fapane.'io residents in this Proviuice.
CHINESE AM) JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 3
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
I hardly need to explain to Your Excelleucy that in accordance with the treaties
between Japan and Great Britain the Japanese subjects residing in the Dominion o£
Canada are entitled to the same privileges, liberties and rights as they are freelj' en-
joyed by the Canadiaji citizens in Japan and I see no reason why these rights could
be refuse<l to the Japanese subjects by tlic British Columbia Oovernment on any of
the governments constituting the IXiminion of (^anada.
I deem it, therefore, my right and duty to protest against Your Excellency'^
giving assent to the bills containing clauses, preventing the employment of the
Japanese subjects and to request that Your Excellency will deal with this most im-
portant question with justice and propriety so that the privileges and rights hitherto
fully enjoyed by the Japanese subjects in all the provinces under the Federal govern-
ment of Canada be respected and protected according to the treaty obligations.
TATSZGORO, XOSSE,
JI.I.J.M. Consul Generak
P. C. 295 K.
Consulate of Japan,
Vancouver, B.C., June 1, 1897.
The Earl of Abkrdeex,
Sir, Your Excellency, — In reference to my telegraphic dispatch of the I7th and
also to ni\ dispatch inider date of the 19th ult., I have the honour of informing Yotir
Excellency that I have been instruetetl by His Imeprial Japanese Majesty's Govern-
ment to protest against Your Excellency giving assent to the particular clauses contain-
ing the word ' Japanese ' in the so-called Oriental Labour Bill, submitted by the Lieut.-
Governor Dewdney to Your Excellency's decision, on the ground that the said Bill,
so far as it concerns the Japanese, is most unjust and unfriendly measures ever taken
by any civilized government against a friendly nation of Great Britain and her de-
pendencies.
I have therefore the honour of protesting against Your Excellency giving assent
to the Bill above referred to and also of calling your serious attention to the various
facts in connection with the passage of the said bills by the British Columbia legisla-
tures and the insertion of the word 'Japanese' thereto.
The Bill originally had not contained the word ' Japanese,' but an amendment
of inserting them was made by a member and then it was effected without a discus-
.sion and even an explanation why this insertion of the words ' Japanese ' was be-i
lieved necessary, was not given by the members.
This action on the part of the local legislatures proves that the insertion of the
words ' Japanese ' in the Bill was entirely uncalled for and never for a moment war-
ranted by any facts of whatever. They are, it appears, solely planned to do wrong
and injustice to the interest and dignity of the Japanese subjects residing in this
province.
Although hardly necessary, I may point out that the passage of such a Bill by
■ nc of the provincial legislatures, and of Wiur E.xcellency granting the Koyal assents
thereto will tend eventually to the manifestation of an unfriendly feeling by the local
people toward the Japanese residents and especially in the form in which the said Bill
has passe<l the British Columbia legislatures it will be obvious to Your Excelleucy that
the Japanese subjects are to be discriminated alike the Chinese and that the full rights
and liberty provided for in the Treaty between Japan and Great Britain will no longer
be respected. The result of such unfair and unfriendly measures on the part of the
Canadian government had they become law, would very naturally have led to the
serious complications between the nations interested.
It is my sincere and earnest desire, therefore, that Your Excellency's fair and
just ilecision will result in the Royal assent being withheld from a measure which
74b— U
4 ANGLO-JAPANESE COSrEXTION
8-g EDWARD VII., A. 1909
V70uld be grossly unjust and unfriendly to the people of one of Britannic Majesty's
friendly powers, while being of no real benefit to the welfare and prosperity of the
province concerned.
TATSZGORO NOSSE,
E.I. J.M.'s Consul General for Canada.
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consulate.
Vancoiver, B.C., 14th March, 1898.
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfred Laurier,
Prime Minister and President of the Council.
Sir, — I have the honour of addressing you, as I had to His Excellency the
Governor General, respecting a bill introduced in the House of Commons, by Mr.
Mclnnis, making the Chinese Immigration Act applicable to the Japanese, and
increasing the poll tax to five hundred dollars.
You are convinced, I believe, that it i« unfair and unjust to legislate, or even
attempt to legislate, discriminately against the subject of the country which I have
the honour to represent here, whose progress in civilization has excited the admira-
tion of the world, and who has been internationally recognized as the equal of any
country, in the same way as against the Chinese. Also I believe that the temper of
higher class in this country in these matters is entirely different from that of
certain elements of labourers whose views some politicians are forced to svipport.
But if the bill shall have any great number of supporters in, or should it pass through
the House of Commons or parliament, Japanese nation cannot; be helpe 1 considering
it as the attitude of Canada towards their countr.v. To say nothing about affecting
the most cordial feeling which happily exists at present between the Dominion of
Canada and the Empire of Japan, it may hinder the development of the trade and
commerce between both countries, which bids fair to grow year by year.
For the highest interests of both countries it is. therefore, to be earnestly hoped
that you may u.se your influence to cause the Bill to be withdrawn, or to minimize
the number of supporters of the bill. I may say confidentially, in addition, that I
am communicating with my government in this matter, and that I myself, or Consul
Nosse, iwho is now stationed at Chicago, but who has consular jurisdiction over the
Eastern Canada, may be instructed to proceed over there. If T go you will be
requested to favour me with an interview in this matter.
I avail myself f this occasion to express to you the assurance of my highest
consideration.
S. SHIillZr,
His Imperial -Japanese Majesty's Consul.
Privy Coincil, Canada,
Ottawa, 23rd March, 1898.
S. SiiiMizf, Esq.,
His Imperial Japanese ^Majesty's Consul,
Vancouver, B.C.
Sir, — T have the honotir to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the t4th
inst. !Mr. ^Iclnnis. as you are aware, in i)rop()sing the bill to which you call my
attention, is acting in the exercise of his rights as a member of the House of C<im-
mons of Canada. I will not fail to la.v before m.v colleagues the representations
which you have conveyed to me in your letter. I venture to express the hope and
belief that the goo*l relations which at preeent exist between Japan and the British
Empire will not be marred in any way by anything that may take place in Canada.
WH.FRID LAFRTER.
CHINESE AND JAP.iyE.Sh: IMMIGRATION 5
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
P.C. 822 K.
TiiK 1st of April, 1898,
At CjOversmext House,
ViCTORU, B.C.
The Honourable,
The Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Can.
Sir, — 1 have the honour to transmit, herewith a certified copy of a minute of
my Executive Council, aproved on the 23rd ultimo, making representations to the
Federal Government with a view to restricting the immigration into British Colum-
bia of an undesirable class of aliens, and further that steps be taken for the main-
tenance of sick and indigent British subjects who may be stranded in this province
on their way to or return from the Yukon district.
THOS. R. McINNES,
Lieutenant Governor.
Provinxe of British Columbi.\.
Copy of a report of a committee of the Honourable the Executive Council, approved
by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor on the 23rd day of !March, 1898.
The Committee of Council submit for the approval of His Honour tne Lieut-
enant-Governor lue undermentioned resolution of the Legislative Assembly, namely:
Whereas by Section 91 of the ' British North America Act ' it is provided that
the exclusive legislative authority of the Parliament of Canada
extends to all subjects next hereafter enumerated, that is to say: —
Sub-section (11) Quarantine and establishment of marine hospitals.
Sub-section (25) Aliens.
Sub-section (29) Such classes of subjects as are expressly excepted in the enum-
eration of the classes of subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures
of the Provinces.
And by section 95 It is hereby declared that the Parliament of
Canada may from time to time make laws in relation immigration into
all or any of the Provinces; and
Whereas thousands and tens of thousands of people from numerous parts of
the world are flocking to the Yukon territory in search of gold ; and
Whereas a large portion of these people are inexperienced and ignorant of the
nature and difficulties connected with their undertaking, are mi»uy of them not
British subjects, and are possessed of very limited means; and
Whereas numerous disappointments and failures must be the natural outcome
of such a state of affairs, tiius throwing up:in society a large, number of sick and
irdigent persons, criminals, and people of unsound mind, and
Whereas, from its geographical position in relation to the Yukon territory, tho
Province of British Columbia becomes the easi&st refuge for such an undesirable
class of people; and
Whereas the large revenue derived from the immigration to the Yukon district
is almost wholly absorbed by the Dominion Government;
Therefore, be it resolved, that a humble addre.«s be presented to His Honour the
Lieutenant-Governor, praying him to move the Dominion Government —
1. To take effective steps at the ports of embarkation and debarkation to prevent
sick and indigent persons, criminals, and lunatics who are not British subjects from
emig^rating to British Columbia:
6 ANGLO-JAPANESE CONVENTION
8-9 EDWAnO VII., A. 1909
2. To take effective steps for the reception and maintenance of sick and indigent
persons, criminals and lunatics who may be British subjects, and who may be landed
in British Columbia.
The Committee advise that a copy of this Minute if approved, be forwarded
to the Honourable the Secretary of State.
JAMES BAI^R,
Clerk, Executive Council.
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consulate for Canada,
Vancouver, B.C., 10th May, 1898.
The Earl of Aberdeen,
A;c., A:c., itc, &c.
Your E.xcellency, — I have the honour of calling Your Excellency's attention
to a ijrovision in the several railway bills and other private bills which have passed
or may pass through the legislative assembly of the province of British Columbia,
and to which assent may be given by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of that
province, prohibiting the employment of subjects of Japan in the construction or
operation of the various railways or other imdertakiugs which may be built or car-
ried out under the sought-for charters. I, in the name of His Imperial Japanese
Majesty's government, most respectfully protest, as far as Japanese persons are con-
cerned, against any such discrimination against the subjects of a friendly nation
whose government I have the honour to represent here, on the following grounds: —
1. That no satisfactory reason has been or can possibly be given, for such dis-
crimination in the l^islative assembly above stated.
2. That the article of the Revised Treaty of Commerce and Navigation between
Japan and Great Britain provides that 'the subjects of each of the two high con-
tracting parties shall have full liberty to enter, travel or reside in any part of the
dominions and possessions of the other contracting party, and shall enjoy full and
perfect protection for their person and property;' and the Article 15 of the same
that 'the high contracting parties agree that, in all concerns, commerce and navi-
gation, and privilege, favour, or immunity which either contracting party has
actually granted, or may hereafter grant, to the government, sbiiw, subjects or citizens
of any other state shall be extended immediately and uncoiulitioually to the govern-
ment, ships, subjects or citizens of the other contracting party, it being their inten-
tion that the trade and navigation of each countiy shall be placed in all respects by
tlie other on the footing of the most-favoured nations.'
3. That though the Dominion of Canada docs not participate in the revised
treaty referred to, it is contradictor.v to international usage that a nation subject to
the duties and privileges of international law, be adversely discriminated in legisla-
tion in a friendly country.
4. That while the legi.slators of the province of British Columbia apparently
look upon the Jajjanese in the same light as (^hinese, it is a well known fact that tho
education and character, customs and manners of Japanese are entirely different
from those of Chinese, so that the principal argument of the legislators is contra-
dicted by the fact.
5. That the number of Japanese residents in British Columbia, not exceeding one
thousand and odd persons, is less than one-tenth of that of Chinese.
6. That the government of Japan controls the movements of emigrants by
enforcing the emigration regulations, no intending emigrant being allowed to leave the
country imless the pro|>er authorities are satisfied that he has good reason to emigrate
to a certain country, so that the emigration into any country can be restricted
to proper extent by the govirnnient of Japan.
7. That such discrimination would tend to be detrimental to some extent to the
development of the international trade between Canada and Japan, which the gov-
ernments of the two countries are now endeavouring to foster.
CHIXESE AM) JAi:i.M:^E niMlGKATloy 7
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
I therefore most respectfully request that Vour Excellency will give these pro-
visions in the bills referred to such consideration as will lead to Tour Excelleney'i
disallowance.
s. sHnrizu,
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Constil.
His Imperul J.\p.\xese Majesty's Consulate for Canada,
Vancouver, B.C.. 16th May, 1898.
His Excellency
The Governor General,
&c., (tc, &e.
Yoi-R ExcEi.i.ENCY, — I have the honour of calling Your Excellency's attention
to a section of a bill intituled: 'An Act to amend the British Columbia Public
Works Loan Act, 1897,' which passed through the legislative assembly of the
province of British Columbia, and to which assent may be given by His Honour the
Lieutenant Governor of that province, prohibiting Chinese or Japanese persons to
be employed or i)emiited to work in the construction or operation of any under-
taking thereby subsidized. I. in the name of His Imperial Japanese Majc^tv';; Gov-
ernment, most respectfully protest, as far as Japanese persons are concerned, against
such discrimination against the subjects of a friendly nation, whose government I
have the hojiour to represent here, on the same grounds as those that I have pro-
pounded in protesting against a provision of the same nature contained iiL the
various railway bills and several private bills, in my despatch addressed to Your
Excellency on the 10th instant, and most respectfully request that Your Excellency
will give the section referred to such consideration as will lead to Your Excellency's
disallowance.
S. SHIMIZU,
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.\te for Canada,
Vancouver, B.C.. 28th May, 1898.
His Excellency
The Governor General of Canada,
Ottawa.
Your Excellency, — As a supplementary to my despatch of 10th instant, pro-
testing against a provision in the several railway bills and other private bills of the
legislative Assembly of British Columbia, I have the honour of forwarding to Your
Excellency herein enclosed a list of the Acts that have passed the legislative assembly
in its last session and received the assent of His Honour the Lieutenant Governor
of that province, on the 20th instant, in which anti-Japanese clauses will be found.
S. SHIMIZU,
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
List of Acts in which the anti-Japanese clauses will be found : —
4. An Act to incorporate the Mountain Tramway and Electric Company.
5. An Act to incorporate the Kitmat Railway Company, Limited.
7. An Act to incorporate the Alice Arm Railway.
8. An Act to incorporate the South-east Kootenay Railway Company.
9. An Act to incorporate the Kootenay and Xorth-west Railway Company.
12. An Act to incorporate the Revelstoke and Cassiar Railway Company.
13. An Act to incorporate the Skeena River and Eastern Railway Company.
14. An Act to incorporate the Arrowhead and Kootenay Railway Company.
8 AyGLO-JAPANESE COyVEXTIOy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
15. An Act to incorporate the East Kootenay Valley Railway Company.
16. An Act to incorporatet the North Star and Arrow Lake Eailway Company.
17. An Act respecting the Xanaimo Electric Light, Power and Heating Company,
Limited.
19. An Act to incorporate the British Columbia Great Gravel Dredge Mining
Corporation.
20. An Act to incorporate the Skeena Eiver Railway Colonization and Explora-
tion Company.
21. An Act to incorporate the Downie Creek Railway Company.
26. An Act to incorporate the Canadian Yukon Eailway Company.
28. An Act to incorporate the Eed Mountain Tunnel Company, Limited.
37. An Act to authorize the Cowichan Lumber Company, Limited, to construct
a dam and works on the Cowichan Eiver, in the Quamiehan district and also to
construct a tramway to connect the said dam and works with a point at or near
the mouth of the Cowichan Eiver.
39. An Act to incorporate the Portland and Stikine Eailway Company.
41. An Act to amend the Tramway Company Incorporation Act.
P. C. 975— K.
(Telegram.)
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Aberdeen.
London, 18th June, 1898.
Referring to your despatch No. 145. May 30th, send copy of bills with observa-
tions of your Ministers as soon as possible. Hope advice of your Ministers as to dis-
allowance may be delayed till I have had opportunity for consideration. See Lans-
downe's secret despatch 20 December, 1887.
CHAMBEELAIN.
1033— K.
DowNLNG Street, 20th July, 1898.
Governor General
The Eight Honourable
The T.ARL OF Aberdeen, P.C, G.C.M.G.
My Lord, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatches of
the numbf-rs and dates noted in the margin, in which you forwarded copies of various
communications received by you from the Japanese Consul for Canada respecting the
fnti-Japanese legislation recently passed by the legislature of British Columbia.
-. '. shrll be glad if you will lose no une in 'rcnsiiiitting, in accordance with
the request contained in my telegram of the 18th June, copies of the Acts to whicl^
M. Shimizu takes exception, together with the observations of your ministers thereon.
3. In the meantime I have to re<iuet>t that you will impress upon your ministers
that restrictive legislation of the typo of which the legislation in question appears to
be is extremely repugnant to the sentimcnt-s of the people and government of Japan,
and you should not fail to impress upon them the importance, if there is any real
prospect of a large influx of Japanese labourers into Canada, of dealing with it by
legislation of the Dominion parliament on the lines of the accompanying Natal Act,
■which is likely to be generally adopted in Australia.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
CniyEHE AND JAPAXEUE LVMIORATION 9
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
TTie Immigration Restriction Act, 1897. — Arrangement of Clauses. j «
Preamble.
1. Short title.
2. E.xemptions.
3. Prohibited immigrants.
4. Unlawfvil entry of prohibited immigrants.
5. Entry permitted on certain conditions.
6. Persons formerly domiciled in Natal.
7. Wives and children.
8. Liability of masters and owners of ship for illegal lauding of immigrants.
9. Disabilities of prohibited immigrants.
10. Contract for return of prohibited immigrants.
11. Offence of assisting in contraventions.
12. Offence of assisting contravention by persons named in section 3.
13. Bringing insane persons into colony.
14. Powers of police to prevent entry.
15. Officers for carrying out Act.
16. Rules.
17. Punishments.
18. Jurisdiction of magistrates.
Schedule A.
Schedule B.
(No. 1, 1897.)
WALTER HELY-HUTCHINSON,
Governor.
ACT.
To place certain restrictions on Immigration.
Whereas it is desirable to place certain restrictions on immigration- —
Be it therefore enacted by the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice and consent of the Legislative Council and Legislative Assembly of Natal, as
follows : —
1. This Act may be known as ' The Immigration Restriction Act, 1897.'
2. This Act shall not apply to : —
(a.) Any person possesed of a certificate in the form set out in the Sche-
dule A to this Act annexed and signed by the Colonial Secretary, or
the Agent General of Natal, or any officer appointed by the Natal
government for the purposes of this Act whether in or out of Natal.
(&.) Any person of a class for whose immigration into Natil provision is
made by law or by a scheme approved by government.
(f.) Any person specially exempted from the operation of this Act by a
writing under the hand of the Colonial Secretary.
(d.) Her Majesty's land and sea forces.
(c.) The officers and crew of any ship of war of any government.
(f.) Any person duly accredited to Natal by or under the authority of the
Imperial or any other government.
3. The immigration into Natal, by land or sea of any person of any of the
classes defined in the following subsections, hereinafter called ' prohibited ininii-
grant ' is prohibited, namely : —
(a.) Any person who. when asked to do so by an officer appointed under
this Act, shall fail to himself write out and sign, in the characters of
10 AyGLO-JAPAXESE coyvEXTioy
6-y EUWARb VII., A. 1909
any language of Europe, an application to the Colonial Secretary in
the form set out in Schedule B to this Act.
(6.) Any person being a pauper, or likely to become a public charge.
(c.) Any idiot or insane person.
(J.) Any person suffering from a loathsome or a dangerous contagious
disease.
(e.) Any person who, not having received a free pardon has within two
years been convicted of a felony or other infamous crime or mis-
demeanor involving moral turpitude, and not being a mere political
offence.
(f.) Any prostitute, and any person living on the prostitution of others.
4. Any prohibited immigrant making his way into, or being found within,
Xatal, in disregard of the provisions of this Act, shall be deemed to have contravened
this Act, and shall be liable, in addition to any other penaltj-, to be removed from
the colony, and upon conviction may be sentenced to imprisonment not exceeding
six months without hard labour: Provided that such imprisonment shall cease for
the purpose of deportation of the offender, or if he shall find two approved sureties
each in the sum of fifty pounds sterling, that he will leave the colony within one
month.
5. Any person appearing to be a prohibited immigrant within the meaning of
section 3 of this Act and not coming within the meaning of any of the subsections
(C), (D), (E), (F), of the said section 3 shall be allowed to enter Xatal upon the
following conditions: —
(a) He shall, before landing, deposit with an officer appointed under this Act
the sum of one hundred pounds sterling.
(h) If such person shall, within one week after entering Xatal, obtain from the
Colonial Secretary, or a magistrate, a certificate that he does not come within the
prohibition of this Act. the deposit of one hundred pounds sterling shall be returned.
(c) If such person shall fail to obtain -such certificate within one week, the
deposit of one hundred pounds sterling may be forfeited, and he may be treated as a
prohibited immigrant.
Provided that, in the case of any person entering Natal under this section, no
liability shall attach to the vessel or to the owners of the vessel in which he may
have arrived at any port of the colony.
0. Any person who shall satisfy an officer appointed under this Act that he has
been formerly domiciled in Xatal, and that he does not come within the meaning of
any of the subsections (C). (D), (E). (F). of section 3 of this Act, shall not be
regarded as a prohibited immigrant.
7. The wife and an.v minor child of a person not being a prohibited immigrant
shall be free from any prohibition imposed by this Act.
8. The master and owners of any vessel from which any prohibited immigrant
may be landed shall be jointly and severall.v liable to a i>enalty of not less than one
hundred pounds sterling, and such penalty may be increased up to five thousmd
pounds sterling by sums of one hundred pounds sterling, each for every five
prohibited immigrants after the first five, and the vessel may be made executable
by a (lecri'c of the Supreme Court in satisfaction of any such ixmalty. and the vessel
may be refused a clearance outwards until such jx'nalty has been paid, and until
provision has been made by the master to the satisfaction of an officer appointed
under this Act for the conveyance out of the colony of each prohibited immigrant
who may have been so landed.
!). A proliibited immigrant shall not be entitled to a license to carry on any
trade or calling, nor shall he be entitletl to aciiniro land in leas?hold, freehold, or
otherwise to exercise the franchise, or to be enrolled as a burgess of any borough
C'HIXICSE AM) .JAI'AM:si: IMMKlh'ATION 11
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
or on tile roll of any township; and any license or franchise right which may have
boon aciiuircii in contravention of this Act shall be void.
10. Any officer thereto authorized by governniont may make a contract with the
master, owners, or agent of any vessel for the conveyance of any prohibited im-
migrant found in Natal to a port in or near to such immigrant's country of birth,
and any such immigrant with his personal effects may be placed by a police officer
on board such vessel, and shall in such case, if destitute, be supplied with a sufficient
sum of money to enable him to live for one month according to his circumstances in
life after disembarking from such vessel.
11. Any person who shall in any way wilfully assist any prohibited immigrant
to contravene the provisions of this Act shall be deemed to have contravened this
Act.
12. Any person who shall in any way wilfully assist the entry. into Natal of
any prohibited immigrant of the class (f) in section 3 of this Act shall be deemed
to have contravened this Act, and shall uiwn conviction be liable to be imprisoned
with hard labour for any period not exceeding twelve months.
13. Any person who shall l>e wilfully instrumental in bringing into Natal an
idiot or insane person without written or printed authority, signed by the Colonial
Secretary, shall be deemed to have contravened this Act, and in addition to any
other penalty shall be liable for the cost of the maintenance of such idiot or insane
person whilst in the colony.
14. Any police officer or other officer appointed therefor under this Act may,
subject to the provisions of section .t, i)revent any prohibited immigrant from enter-
ing Natal by land or sea.
15. The Governor may from time to time appoint, and at pleasure remove,
officers for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this Act, and may define
the duties of such officers, and such officers shall carry out the instructions from
time to time given to them by the ministerial head of their department.
16. The Governor in Council may. from time to time, make, amend and repeal
rules and regulations for the better carrying out of the provisions of this Act.
17. The penalty for any contravention of this Act or any rule or regulation
passed thereunder, where no higher penalty is expressly imposed, shall not exceed a
fine of fifty pounds sterling, or imprisonment with or without hard labour, until
payment of such fine or in addition to such fine, but not exceeding in any case three
m.onths.
18. All contraventions of this Act or of rules or regulations thereunder and
suits for penalties or other moneys not exceeding one hundred pounds sterling shall
be cognizable by magistrates.
Colony of Natal.
This is to certify that of
aged by trade or calling a is a fit
and proper person to be received as an immigrant in Natal.
Dated at this day of
(Signature) '
SCHEDULE B.
To the Colonial Secretary.
Sir, — I claim to be exempt from the operation of Act No. 1897.
My full name is My place of abode for
the past twelve months has been
12 ANGLO-JAPANESE CONTENTION
8-9 EDWARD vi,., A. 1909
My business or calling is
I was bem at in the year
Yours, &c..
Given at Government House, Natal, this fifth day of May, 1897
By command of His Excellency the Governor.
THOS. K. MURRAY,
Colonial Secretary.
Government House^
Victoria, B.C. 23rd December, 1898.
The Honourable
The Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Canada.
Sir, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 15th
instant, calling my attention to your letter of the 17th ultimo, respecting the
protest of the Japanese minister against certain Acts of the legislature of this
province aimed at the exclusion of Japanese subjects from employment in this
province, and in reply to state that I have forwarded copy of your letter to my execu-
tive council with the request that they give it their early attention, and furnish His
Excellency with their views upon the subject with as little delay as possible.
THOS. R. McINNES.
Lieutenant-Governor.
Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Honourahle the Privy Council,
approved hy His Excellency on the 10th November, 1898.
The committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration a despatch,
hereto annexed, dated 11th August, 1898, from the Right Honourable Mr. Chamber-
lain, transmitting copies of correspondence with the Foreign Office, respecting a
note from the Japanese Minister complaining of the recent Acts of the Legislature
of British Columbia aimed at the exclusion of Japanese subjects from employment
in that province.
The committee, on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice, to whom the
despatch was referred, advise that a copy of the said despatch and of the accom-
panying correspondence with the Foreign Office, be transmitted to the Lieutenant
Governor of the province of British Columbia, and that he be requested to state the
views of his government upon the subject for the information of Your Exeelloucy in
replying to Mr. Chamberlain's despatch.
All of which is respectfully submitted for Your Excellency's approval.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Cleric of the Privy Council.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Aberdeen.
Downing Street, 11th August, 1898.
Governor General,
&c., &e., &c.
My Lord, — With reference to my telegram of the 18th June and my despatch No.
214 of the 20th ult., I have the honour to transmit to you for communication to your
ministers copies of correspondence with the Foreign Office respecting a note from
llio Japanese minister at this court, complaining of the recent bills of the T>egisla-
CHISESE AND ./.l/'.l.V/;.si IMillGRATIOy 13
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
ture of British Columbia aimed at the exclusion of Japanese subjects from employ-
ment in that province.
I shall be glad if you will move your ministers to give their early consideration
to this matter.
J. CHAMBERLAIX.
Foreign Office, 6th August, 1898.
The Under Secretary of State,
Colonial OflBce.
Sir, — I am directed by the Marquis of Salisbury to transmit, to be laid before
the Secretary of State for the Colonies, copy of a note which has been received from
the Japanese minister at this court, complaining of recent legislation in British
Columbia for the e.xclusion of Japanese subjects from employment in that province.
His Lordship would be glad to be informed what answer Mr. Secretary Cham-
berlain would suggest to be returned to the Japanese jlinister's note.
FRAXCrS BERTIE.
J.\P.\XESE Leg.\tios', 3rd August, 1898.
The Marquis of Salisbury, K.G., &c., &c., &c.
IMv Lord ilARQlis. — The legislative assembly of the province of British
Columbia, in the Dominion of Canada, passed in the month of May last, an Act " to
prohibit the employment of Chinese and Japanese persons on work carried on imder
the franchises granted by private Acts," also another Act " to amend the British
Columbia Public Works Loan Act, 1897," and several railway and other private
bills, all of which contain provisions prohibiting the employment of Japanese sub-
jects in several works, public and private, under the n°Tinltv of a fine for each
.Japanese so employed. The Japanese Consul at Vancouver has. therefore, under
instructions of the Imperial government entered a protest to the Lieutenant
Grvern'T of the province in the hope that the necessary approval of the Governor
might bi withheld from these enactments. His representations were, however, fruit-
less, i nd tl)o Acts were approved by the Lieutenant Governor, and are now awaiting
the isseii. of the Governor General of Canada.
M; government, although they confidently believe that the legislation so
unfriendly and discriminating against "Japanese subjects would not receive the
SHnction of the Governor General, have instructed me to call the attention of Her
Majesty's Goverment to the matter.
The impropriety of such discriminating legislation against the subjects of a
friendly state is evident in itself and requires hardly any comment on the part of
my government. The Japanese subjects in Canada are not large in number. So
far as my government are aware they have always been law-abiding and have done
nothing that might necessitate a legislative action adverse to their interests.
Moreover, in the opinion of my government, such measures if allowed to become
law, cannot but injuriously affect the cordial and commercial relations which now
hpppily exist between Japan and the Dominion of Canada, and which have every
prospect of further developments in the near future.
I have therefore the honour to ask the good offices of your lordship so that Her
Majesty's government may see their way to exercise their influence with the Governor
General of Canada in order that his assent may be withheld from the aforesaid
legislation of British Columbia.
KATO.
14 ANGLO-JAPAXESE COyYENTIOy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
DowKLSG Street, 11th August, 1898.
The Under Secretary of State,
Foreign Office.
Sir, — In reply to your letter of the 6th inst., inclosing a copy of a note from
the Japanese minister at this court protesting against recent legislation in British
Columbia for the exclusion of Japanese subjects from employment in that province,
I am directed by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to acquaint you for the information of
the Marquis of Salisbury that no reply has yet been received to tne communications
addressed to the Governor General on this subject.
A copy of Mr, Kato's note will, however, be sent to him, with a request that
he will press his ministers for early consideration of the matter, and in the mean-
time I am to suggest that M. Kato should be informed that Mr. Chamberlain is in
cf mmunication with the Governor General of Canada on this subject.
C. P. LUCAS.
Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by the
Governor General on the 7th December, 1898.
The committee have had under consideration the annexed report dated Novem-
ber 8. 1898, from the Minister of Justice upon the Statutes of the Province of British
Columbia, passed in the sixty-first year of Her Majesty's reign (1898), and received
by the Secretary of State of Canada on June 8, 1898.
The minister is of opinion that these statutes may be left to their operation
without comment, with the exception of those specially referred to in the said report,
and which are the following: —
Chapter 40 "An Act to give effect to the Revised Statutes of British Columbia.'
Chapter 49 'An Act respecting the Canadian Pacific Xavigation Company
(Limited).'
Chapter 28 ' An Act relating to the employment of Chinese or Japanese persons
on works carried on under Franchises granted by private Acts.'
Chapter 10 ' An Act to confirm an agreement between Her Majesty in right
of Her Province of British Columbia and Frank Owen and William John Stokes,
and to incorporate the Cariboo-Omineca Chartered Company.'
Section 30 of this chapter provides that ' no Chinese of Japanese person shall
be employed in the construction or operation of the undertaking hereby authorized,
under a penalty of five dollars per day for each and every Chinese or Japanese person
employed' in contravention of this section, to be recovered on complaint of any
person under the provisions of the Summary Convictions Act.'
Chapters 30, 44, 46. 47, 48, 50, 52. 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60. 61. 62, 63, 64.
Each of these statutes contains a provision similar to section 30 of chapter 10 pro-
hibiting the employment of Chinese or Japanese persons by the respective Companies.
The committee concur in the said report and submit the same for Your Excel-
lency's approval and advise that a certified copy of this minute, if approved, together
with a copy of the said report of the Minister of Justice, and of the papers accom-
panying the same, be transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of the province of
British Columbia for the information of his government.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of Ihe Prii'y Council.
Department of Justkk. Canada,
Ottawa, November 8. 1898.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council :
The undersigned has had under consideration the statutes of the province of
British Columbia, passed in the sixty-first year of Her Majesty's reign (1898), and
CHIXE8E A^iD JAPANESE IMMWRATIOy 15
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
received by the Secretary of State for Canaila on 8th June, 1898, and he is of opinion
that these statutes may be left to their operation without comment, with the excep-
tion of tliose hereafter specially referred to: —
Chapter 40, ' An Act to give effect to the Revised Statutes of British Columbia.'
This statute relates to the recent revision of the provincial statutes and gives
effect to thv2 revision. Without referring particularly to the various objections which
have been stated in the reports of the undersigned's predecessors in office upon the
statutes contained in the revision from time to time as they were enacted, the
undersigned intends that these objections, so far as applicable, shall be considered to
apply to the revised statutes. Having regard to previous comments and to the
above observation, the undersigned does not consider it necessary to make any
special remarks with regard to any of the revised statutes other than chapter 107,
' The Jurors' Act,' as to which he observes that sections 75 to 82. inclusive, relate
to juries in criminal cases, and appear to contain substantially re-enactments of the
corresponding provisions of the Criminal Code, 1892. These affect matters of
criminal procedure and are nUra vires of the legislature. The undersigned does
not projxise on that account that the statute should bs disallowed, becauss he pro-
visions in question are not inconsistant with the Criminal Code, and to disallow the
statute which gives effect to the revisi{ui might cause serious inconvenience. It is
very undesirable, however, that a provincial legislature should enact rules of criminal
procedure, even although they be copied from the Criminal Code. Such rules can
receive no effect from provincial enactment, and as amendments are being fre-
quently made to the code, the provincial rules might soon become inconsistent there-
with, in which case there would be a liability to error from having incompatible
rules affecting the same subject appearing upon the two statute-books. The under-
signed considers, therefore, that the sections in question should be repealed, and he
recommends that the provincial government be requested to introduce the necessary
legislation at the nest session of the legislature.
Chapter 49. — ' An Act respecting the Canadian Pacific ^Navigation Company,
Limited.'
Among the powers conferred upon the company is one stated in the following
terms : —
' (a) To purchase, charter, hire, build, or otherwise acquire steamships and
other vessels of any description, and to employ the same in the conveyance of pas-
sengers, mails, cattle, produce and merchandise of all kinds, and in towing vessels
of all kinds, and lumber, between any parts of British Columbia and elsewhere, as
may seem expedient, and to acquire any postal or other subsidies.'
It is beyond the authority of a provincial legislature to authorize the establish-
ment or operation of a line of steam or other ships connecting the province with any
other or others of the provinces, or extending beyond the limits of the province,
or between the province and any British or foreign country. The words ' and else-
where, as may seem expedient ' in the paragraph quoted, would seem to indicate
that it is intended to authorize the company to carry on a shipping business between
the province and other places outside the limits of the province, and they should,
for that reason, be struck out. The undersigned recommends that the matter be
called to the attention of the provincial government, and that the government be
requested to state whether a proper amendment will be made within the time limited
for disallowance. Meantime the undersigned withholds any further recommendation
with regard to this Act.
Chapter 28. — ' An Act relating to the employment of Chinese or Japanese per-
sons on works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts.'
The Act is given the short title of the ' Labour Regulation Act, 1898,' and is in
effect similar to the Bill passed by the legislative assembly of the province of British
Columbia in 1897, entitled: 'An Act relating to the employment of Chinese or
16 AXGLO-JAPANESE CONTENTIOV
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
Japanese persons on works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts,'
•which was reserved by the Lieutenant Governor for the pleasure of His Excellency
in Council, and which was the subject of a report by the predi?eessor in office of the
imdersigned, approved by His Excellency in Council on 15th December. 1897. and
as to which His Excellency's government declined to give eilect. The Act defines
the terms ' Chinese ' and ' Japanese ' as meaning any native of the Chinese or
Japanese empires ,or their dependencies, not born of British parents, and as including
any person of the Chinese or Japanese races. It disqualifies from employment by
persons or companies exercising provincial franchises Chinese or Japanese persons
as so defined, and renders such persons or companies employing them liable to
penalties for such employment.
Chapter 10. — " An Act to confirm an agreement between Her Majesty in right
■of her province of British Columbia and Frank Owen and William John Stokes, and
to incorporate the Cariboo-Omineca Chartered Company.'
Section 30 of this chapter provides that ' no Chinese or Japanese person shall
Tse employed in the construction or operation of the undertaking hereby authorized,
under a penalty of five dollars per day, for each and every Chinese or Japanese
person employed in contravention of this section, to be recovered on complaint of any
person under the provisions of the '" Summary Convictions Act." '
Chapter 30 — ' An Act to amend the British Columbia Public Works Loan Act,
1897.'
Chapter 44 — ' An Act to amend the Tramway Incorporation Act.'
Chapter 46 — ' An Act to incorporate the Alice Arm Railway.'
Chapter 47 — ' An Act to incorporate the Arrowhead and Kootenay Railway
■Company.'
Chapter 4S — ' An Act to incorporate The British Columbia Great Gold Gravels
Dredge-Mining Corporation.'
Chapter 50 — • An Act to incorporate the Canadian Yukon Railway Company.'
Chapter 5-2 — •' An Act to incorporate the Downie Creek Railwa.v Company.'
Chapter 53 — ' An Act to incorporate the East Kootenay Valley Railway Com-
pany.'.
Chapter 54 — 'An Act to incorporate the Kittimaat Railway Company, Limited.'
Chapter 55 'An Act to incorporate the Kootenay and Xorth-west Railway Com-
pany.'
Chapter 56 'An Act to incorporate the Mountain Tramway and Electric Company.'
Chapter 57 'An Act respecting the Xanaimo Electric Light. Power and Heating
Company, Limited.'
Chapter 58 'An Act to incorporate the North Star and Arrow Lake Railway Com-
pany.'
Chapter 59 'An Act to incorporte tlie Portland and Stiklne Railway Company.'
Chapter 60 'An Act to incorporate the Red Mountain Tunnel Company. Limited.'
Chapter 61 'An Act to incorporate the Revelstroke and Cassiar Railway Company.'
Chapter 62 'An Act to incorporate the Skeona River and Eastern Railway Com-
pany.'
Chapter 63 'An Act to incorporate the Skeena River Railway. Colonization and
^Exploration Company.'
Chapter 64 'An Act to incorporate the South East Kootenay Railway Company.'
Each of these statutes contains a provision similar to section 30 of chapter 10
prohibiting the emplojTnent of Chinese or Japanese persons b.v the respective com-
panies.
These enactments have been the subject of complaint by the Japanese Minister
at the Court of St. James, and the Japanese Consul at Vancouver. Copies of the
communications of these gentlemen upon the subject are submitted herewith. In a
despatch to His Exc<"llonc.v the Governor Gvueral fnun tlio Right Honourable the
Principal Secretarj- of State for the Colonies, dated 20th July last, referring to this
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 17
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
legislation, His Excellency is requested to impress upon his ministers that restrictive
legislation of the type of which the legislation in question appears to Dt is extremely
repugnant to the sentiments of the people and government of Japan. It is stated that
His Excellency should not fail to impress upon his ministers the importance, if there
is any real prospect of a lar<20 intlux of Ja])anese labourers into Canada, of dealing
with it by legislation of the Dominion on the lines of the Xatal Act, copy of which
accompanies the ilospatch of the Colonial Secreary, and which, it is stated, is likely
to be generally adopted in Australia. The undersigned submits herewith cop.v of the
Natal Act in question.
It appears, therefore, that this matter is regarded by Her Majesty's government
as one of Imperial interest, and the representations of that government upon the
subject should, accordingly be carefully considered in determining upon the
course to be i>ursued with regard to the legislation. In the meantime it may be well
to communicate with the government of British Columbia upon the subject, inclosing
copies of the complaints of the Japanese minister and consul and of Jlr. Chamber-
lain's despatch of 20th July. 1808. in addition to the communication which has been
sent pursuant to the recommendation made by the undersigned on 28th October last.
The provincial government should be asked to give the matter early consideration,
and state, for the information of Your Excellency's government, any facts or reasons
which they desire to be considered. It is also important to ascertain whether the
provincial government would be prepared to recommend the repeal of chapter 28, and
of the anti-Japanese and Chinese sections of the other chapters above mentioned. A
communication should also, in the opinion of the undersigned, be addressed by Your
Excellency's government to the Right Honourable the Principal Secretary of State
for the Colonies, stating what has so far been done with regard to this legislation, and
a copy of the statutes should be forwarded to him. Eurther action, the undersigned
considers, may be delayed until a reply has been received from the provincial authori-
ties.
The undersigned recommend that a copy of this report, if approved, and of papers
accompanving the samv>. bo transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of the province,
for the information of his government.
DAYID iriLLS,
Minister of Justice.
Government Hoise,
Victoria, B.C.. 4th January, 1899.
The Honourable
The Secretary of State.
Ottawa, Can.ada.
Sir. — I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 24th ultimo,
transmitting copy of an approved minute of the Privy Council, dated the 17th idtimo,
adopting the report of the Minister of Justice, thereto attached, respecting the statutes
of this province, passed in the sixty-first year of Her Majesty's reign, (190S) together
with correspondence in regard to legislation concerning Japanese labour. I have
request<^d my ministers to give the subject matter of the aforesaid report their early
consideration, and to state for the information of His Excellency's government any
facts or reasons which they may desire to have considered upon the subject, and to
state whether they are prepared to recommend the repeal of chapter 28. and of the
anti-Japanese and Chinese sections of the other chapters mentioned in the aforesaid
report, and in the said minute.
THOS. R. MrlXNES.
Lieutenant Governor.
74b— 2
18 ANGLO-JAPANESE CONVENTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
At Government House,
ViCTORU, B.C., Januai-j- 24th, 1899.
The Honourable
The Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Canada.
Sir, — I have the honour to transmit herewith certified copy of a minute of my
Executive Council, approved the 20th instant, embodying a Resolution of the Legisla-
tive Assembly of this Province, requesting that the Dominion Government be moved to
furnish the said Assembly with the following' returns : —
1. The number of Chinese landed at the various ports of this Province from
foreign ports, and the amount of head ta.x collected during the years 1897-98.
2. The number of Japanese landed at the various ports of this Province from
foreign ports during the same period.
3. The number of Chinese and Japanese landed at the Quarantine Station at
Victoria during the same period.
THOS. R. McINNES,
Lieutenant Governor.
Certified Copy of a report of a committee of the Honourable the Executive Council,
approved by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 20th day of January,
1899.
The Committee of Council submit for the approval of His Honour the Lieutenant
Governor the undermentioned Resolution of the Legislative Assembly, namely: —
That a respectful address be presented by this House to the Lieutenant Governor,
praying His Honour to move the Dominion Government to furnish this House with
the following returns, viz : —
1. The number of Chinese landed at the various ports of the Province from
foreign ports, and the amount of head tax collected during the years 1897-98.
2. The number of Japanese landed at the various ports of the Province from
foreign ports duing the same period.
■3. The number of Chinese and Japanese landed at the Quarantine Station at
Victoria during the same period.
The Committee advise that a copy of this minute, if approved be forwarded to the
Honourable the Secretary of State.
A. CAMPBELL REDDIE.
Deputy Clerk, Execuiive Council.
1259— K.
Vancouver, B.C., 9th February, 1899.
His Excellency
The Governor General of Canada.
Your Excellency, — In the name of His Imperial Japanese Majesty's government
I have the honour of calling Your Excellency s attention to a paragraph in the sjx^ech
or his honour the Lieutenant Governor of British Cohnubin. delivered at the opening
of the present session of the legislative assembly of that i>rovin('e. stating that ' For
the better protection of the miners in coal mines, a l?ill will bo laid l>efore you pro-
hibiting the employment underground of Japanese in these mines.' I would at the
s-ame time beg to call Your Excellency's attention to the Bill No. 43, entitled. ' An
Act to amend the Coal Mines Regulations Act.' which was recently proposed, seem-
ingly in accordance with the statement of the paragraph above cited, by the Honour-
iildi- the President of the Council to the legislative assembly of that province and
passed through that assembly on the 8th day of this month. And also to the various
CBINESE AND JAPAJiESE IMMIGRATIOy 19
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
private Bills that are before the House at present cc^ntaininp seeticiy which prohibit
the employment of Japanese in works authorized by such Acts. I ies'-jctfully beg to
inclose herewith copies of the Bill No. 43, and also a sample of xnw private Bills
referred to.
And urging the same objections to this legislation as I had the hijour of urging
against legislation of the same nature passed at the last session, I oKet respectfully
request that Your E.xcellency will give this legislation such eonsiden;tiou as will lead
ti- Your Excellency's disallowance of the same.
S. SHIMIZU,
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
BILL.
No. 43.) (1899.
An Act to amend the ' Coal Mines Regulation Act.'
Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of
the province of British Columbia, enacts as follows: —
1. Section 4 of chapter 138 of the Revised Statutes of British Columbia, is here-
by amended by inserting after the word ' Chinaman,' in the second line thereof, the
words ' or Japanese.'
2. Section 12 of the said Act is hereby amended by inserting after the word
' Chinaman,' in the fourth line thereof, the word ' Japanese.'
BILL.
No. 11 (1899.
An Act to incorporate the " Vancouver Northern and Yukon Railway Company.'
37. No Chinese or Japanese persons shall be employed in the construction of the
undertaking or the working of the railway.
38. The preceding two sections are hereby declared to be conditions upon which
this Act is passed, and shall be binding upon bondholders and all other persons in any
way interested in the said company or its property. In case either of said two pre-
ceding sections are violated, such violation shall work a forfeiture of all privileges
granted by this Act, but no such forfeiture shall operate except upon proeeedinga
instituted in the Supreme Court of British Columbia by the Attorney General.
{Telegram.)
1256— K— 1260— K
Imperial Japanese Consul to Governor General.
Vancolver, B.C., 9th February, 1899.
In the name of the Imperial government of Japan I respectfully beg to protest
against the legislation passed or now being passed at the present session of the
legislature of British Columbia, aiming at the prohibition of Japanese labour under-
ground in coal mines or in other works authorized by provincial Acts. I respect-
fully urge the same objections to this legislation as I had the honour of urging
against legislation of same nature of last session and would request such considera-
tion as will lead to Your Excellency's disallowance of the same. Will confirm by
mail.
S. SHIMIZF,
Imperial Japanese Consul.
I4h—2i
20 ' ANGLO-fAPiyEsE coyvEXTioy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
12S6— K.
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consulate for Canada,
Vancouver, B.C., 28th February. 1899.
To His Excellency
The Governor General of Canada,
Ottawa.
Your Excellency, — In addition to my protest recently presented against the
legislation of the province of British Columbia aimed at the prohibition of Japanese
labour in certain undertakings, I respectfully beg- to call Tour Exi-eilency's special
attention to the Bill 60, intituled ' An Act respecting Liquor Licenses,' in which
, Japanese subjects are included among those declared ineligible to hold liquor
licenses (vide the sections 22, 23 and particularly 36 of the Bill Xo. 60). This bill
was introduced to the House by the Honourable the Attorney General of the pro-
vince and passed through it on the 25th day of this month. To this, together with
other bills of a similar nature jiassed at the closing session, assent was given yester-
day by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of the province.
Your Excellency will observe that the discrimination in the Bill No. 60 is a
decided advance upon the former measures aimed against Chinese labour, inasmuch
as this bill now imposes restrictions on Japanese subjects in matters of trade also.
It may also be taken I think as an indication that these anti-Japanese measures will
not stop here in this province, unless the higher authorities are pleased to exercise
their power.
1. therefore, respectfully beg leave to more emphatii-ally reiterate my request
that Your Excellency will give this legislation such consideration as will lead to
Your Excellenc.v's disallowance of the same.
I avail myself of this opportunity to renew to Your Excellency the assurance
vof my highest consideration.
S. SHIMIZF,
Mix Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
1298— K.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto.
Downing Street. 8th March, 1S99.
Governor General,
&c., &c., &c.
My Loud, — With reference to your despatch Xo. ] of the 3rd Janriary. trans-
mitting copy of an approved minute of the Dominion Privy (^ouncil submitting a
report of the Jfinister of Justice on the anti-Japanese legislation passed during the
last session of the legislature of British Columbia, I have the honour tn transmit to
you, to be laid before your ministers, a copy of a further note which the Jfarquis of
Salisbury has received from the Japanese minister at this court, calling attention
to a bill passed during the present session of the same legislature, entitled. ' Coal
Mines Regulations Amendment Bill.'
2. Monsieur Kafo states that the object of this bill is to prohibit the employ-
ment underground of Japanese in coal mines, and he expresses the hope that Her
Majesty's government may extend to this instance the policy pursued in regard to
the legislation of last year.
3. Her Majesty's government will be glad if your ministers "will consider the
question of this bill with that of the others to which their attention hiis alread.v
been called.
J. CITAMBKRLAIN.
cniyESE Axn JAPAyKsK imukiratjox a
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Japanesk Legation, 18th February, 1899.
The Most Honourable
Tlie Marquess of Salisbury, K.G.
My Lord ilARQiESs, — The Japanese consul at Vancouver has reported to me that
tin.' legislature of the province of British Columbia has recently passed a bill at the
instance of the provincial government entitled ' Coal Mines Regulations Amendment
Bill.' The details of the bill are not before me, but I understand that it has been
formulated with the object of prohibiting the employment underground of Japanese
in the coal mines, and thus it appears to be another instance of discrimination aimed
at Japanese subjects in that province.
Several bills with a similar purport, passed by the legislature of the same pro-
vince last year, have formed the subject of correspondence between Your Lordship
and myself, and while my government is deeply sensible of the solicitous attention
which Her Majesty's government, and at their instance the government of Canada
are paying with respect to the issue of those bills, I feel compelled by this renewed
action on the part of British Columbia to call the attention of Her Majesty's gov-
ernment once more to the subject.
The exceptions which the Imperial government have taken against the legis-
lation of last year apply in the present case in their full scope and extent. There-
fore, without reiterating the reasons which I set forth against such legislation in
the letter which I had the honour to address to Tour Lordship under date of August
.3rd, 1898, I take the liberty of calling your attention to the fact, and requesting Her
Majesty's government to extend to the present instance the same enlightened policy
which they have pursued in regard to the legislation of last year, with the confident
assurance that such a policy cannot fail in augmenting the neighbourly relations
existing between -Japan and the Dominion of Canada.
KATO.
Extract from a report of the Committe of the Privy Council, approved by the Gover-
nor General on the 13th March, 1899.
On a report dated 7th March, 1899, from the Minister of Justice, stating that he
has under consideraatiou a copy of a minute of the executive council of the pro-
vince of British Columbia, dated 16th February, 1899. approving a report dated the
1.3th of the same month from the provincial Minister of Finance and Agriculture, with
regard to certain statutes of the said province passed in the year 1898, affecting the
Chinese and Japanese.
The ^linister represents that these statutes are enumerated in a report of the
Minister of Justice of the 8th November, 1898. approved by Tour Excellency in-
Council on the 17th December, 1898, and the report of the provincial Minister is in
reply to that portion of the report of the Minister of Justice which refers to the
statutes in question.
The Minister of Justice observes — referring to The Immigration Restriction Act,
1897, of Xatal, copy of which accompanied the despatch of the Right Honourable
the Principal Secretary of State of the Colonies of 20th July, 1898,— that, while the
provisions of that Act are well adapted to exclude paupers, diseased persons and
criminals, yet the Act does contain a provision (section .3a) which would proba-
bly ha\>' the effect of excluding all Asiatics of the cla~s which would be affected by
the British Columbia statutes in question.
The minister is of the opinion, however, that before determining what course
ought to be pursued by Your Excellency's government in regard to these Acts a
copy of the executive minnte of British Columbia, and of the report of the Provin-
cial Minister of Finance and Agriculture should be submitted to Her Majesty's
government.
22 AXGLO-JAPAyESE COSVEXTIOX
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 19C9
The committe concurring advisi- that Your Excellency be moved to transmit
copies of the said papers, together with a certified copy of this minute, to the Right
Honourable the Principal Secretary of State for the Colonies, in order that he may
submit any observations which he may deem proper for the consideration of Tour
Excellency's government.
The committee further submit that Mr. Chamberlain should be informed at the
same time that the time for disallowance of these Acts will expire on the 8th June,
1899.
All which is respectfully submitted for Tour E.xcellency's approval.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council approved
by is Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 16th day of February, 1899.
The committee of council have had before them the aceompan.\-ing report,
dated 13th February. 1899, from the Minister of Finance and Agriculture, with
regard to the complaint of the Japanese Minister at the Court of St. James respect-
ing the provisions of certain Acts of the legislature of British Columbia which
prohibit the employment of Japanese subjects on certain works.
The committee concur in the said report, and submit the same for your honour's
approval.
The committee advise that a copy of this minute, if approved, together with a
copy of the re[X)rt aforesaid, be transmitted to the Honourable the Secretary of State
for the information of His Excellency the Governor General.
Certified.
A. CAMPBELL E.EDDIE,
Deputy Clerh, Execuiive Council.
To His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in Council.
The undersigned has the honour to report that he has had under consideration
the communication from the government of His Excellency the Governor General
to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, inclosing copies of a minute of the Com-
mittee of the Privy Council of Canada in reference to a despatch from Her Majesty's
Principal Secretary of State for the Colonics, inclosing copies of correspondence
which has passed between the Foreign Ofiice and the Japanese Minister in London
and between the Foreign Office and the Colonial Oifico on the subject of certain
statutes passed by the legislature of British Columbia in the sixty-first year of Her
Majesty's reign, and which contained provisions prohibiting the employment of
Chinese or Japanese persons on works carried on under franchise granted by the
said legislature.
In his despatch of 20th July, 1808, to lli.s Excellency the Governor General
of Canada, Mr. Chamberlain states that 'restrictive legislation of the type of which
the legislation in question appears to be is extremely repugnant to the sentiments
of the people and government of Japan,' and asks His Excellency to impress on his
ministers the importance, if there is an.v real prospect of a large influx of Japanese
labourers into Canada, of dealing with it by legislation of the Dominion parliament
on the lines of the Natal Act.
It may be stated that legislaticm on the lines of the 'Immigration Restriction
Act, 1897, passed by the legislative eo\incil and legi<hitive assembly of Natal,
would not 1)0 within the power of the legislature of this province, but would be
within the competence of the parliament of Canada, being somewhat similar to the
ni't passed by that body imposing a capitation tax of $.50 on each Chinese person
coining into the Dominion.
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 23
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
While the legislature of British Columbia would doubtless welcome any action
by the Parliament of Canada designed to effect objects similar to those aimed at by
the provisions in the statutes which are the subject of this communication from His
Excellency's government, it may be suggested that the provisions embodied in the
Immigration Restriction Act of Natal would not be effectual for the desired purpose,
although such legislation would impose restrictions on Japanese immigration
<hat would probably be more repugnant to the views of the government of Japan
than those complained of in the legislation passed by the legislature of this province.
The undersigned would point out that the statutes passed by the legislature of this
province imposing certain restrictions on the employment of Japanese in British
Columbia, while, it is respectfully submitted, clearly within the power of that body,
do not impose restrictions nearly as onerous or far reaching as would be the case
were legislation enacted by the parliament of Canada on the lines of the Immigra-
tion Restriction Act of Xatal, which appears not to be considered objectionable by
Her Majesty's government. Xo limitation on the number of Japanese persons who
may come into Canada is suggested by the statutes passed by the provincial legisla-
ture. No restriction is placed by those statutes on such persons pursuing any call-
ing, occupation or employment — with one exception — which is not carried on under
the authority of privileges or franchises conferred by the legislature of British
Columbia. That exception is working in coal mines, the legislature, from the evid-
ence placed before it, having come to the conclusion that the employment of Chinese
or Japanese imderground in coal mines is a source of danger.
All that is sought to be attained by the legislation in question is that Chinese
or Japanese persons shall not l)e allowed to find employment on works, the construc-
tion of which has been authorized or made possible of accomplishment by the grant-
ing of certain privileges or franchises by the legislature.
It will, therefore, be seen that the restrictive provisions are merely in the
nature of a condition in agreements or contracts between the provincial government
and particular individuals or companies whereby certain privileges, franchises, eon-
cessions, and, in some cases, also subsidies and guarantees are granted to such
individuals or companies in consideration of only white labour being employed in
the works which are the subject matter of such agreements.
The same causes which have led the legislatures of Xatal and the Australian col-
onies to take measures to restrict the influx of large numbers of labouring people from.
Asia, exist in British Columbia. They are indeed more potent here on account of
the shorter distance intervening between the China and Japnn and this province, as
compared with that between those countries and Australasia and Xatal. It may
also be pointed out in this connection that the possibility of great disturbance to
the economic conditions existing here, and of grave injury being caused to the
working classes of this country by a large influx of labourers from Japan, was so
apparent, that the government of Canada decided it was not advisable that the
Diminion should participate in the revised treaty betwee^i Great Britain and Japan,
whereby equal privileges were granted to the jieople of each nation in the country
of the other.
The economic conditions in British Columbia and Japan and the standards of
living of the masses of the people in the two countries, differ so widely that to grant
fi"eedom of emplo>Tnent to Japanese on such public works as are authorized to be
carried out by Acts of the legislature would almost certainly result in all such
employment being monopolized by the Japanese to the exclusion of the people of
this province. Therefore, while the legislature has scrupulously abstained from
any interference with the employment of Japanese by private individuals or com-
panies, and has not sought to put any restriction on their engaging in any ordinary
occupation or business, it has deemed it to be in the interests of the province to
prohibit their employment on works or undertakings for which it has granted
privileges or franchises. That such restrictions are not only judicious but neces-
24 ATiGLO-JAPAyEHE COyVEXTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 190^
sary has been shown by the manner in which cheap Asiatic labour has in many
cases entirely supplanted white labour on works to which no such restrictions, as
those referred to, were attached.
While it wovild be a matter of profound regret if any action of the government
or legislature of this province should cause Her Majesty's government any embar-
rassment or impair its friendly relations with another power, it may be pointed out
that there are other considerations of an Imperial character involved in this matter.
1' is unquestionably in the interests of the Empire that the Pacific province of the
Dominion should be occupied by a large and thoroughly British population, rather
than by one in which the number of aliens largely predominated and many of the
distinctive features of a settled British community were lacking.
The former condition could not be secured were the masses of the people sub-
jected to competition which would render it impossible for them to maintain a fair
and reasonable standard of living.
For many years the evil effects of unrestricted Chinese immigration caused great
agitation in British Columbia, and the imposition of the capitation tdX of fifty dollars
was the consequence. Since then greater facilities of communication with Japan
and the opportunities for employment in British Columbia, arising from the develop-
ment of its forest, mineral and fishing resources, have led to an influx of Japanese
which has materially and injuriotisly interfered with white laboui and has caused
the legislature to pass the statutes now under consideration. There is no reason to
believe that this influx of Japanese is likely to diminish. On the contrary, there are
many indications that it will become larger and that Japanese labour will, if some
lestrictive measures be not adopted, entirely supplant white labour in many import-
ant industries and be used almost exclusively on works carried out under franchises
granted by the legislature and which are in many cases aided by subsidies from the
provincial treasury, largely with the object of opening up the province and inducing
an immigration of desirable settlers.
The undersigned, therefore, recomniends that a reply be made to the Govern-
ment of the Dominion that His Honour's government regrets that in the interests of
British Columbia and of the labouring classes among its X)eople, it cannot see its way
to introduce a measure in the legislature to repeal the provisions restricting the
employment of Chinese and Japanese in the statutes referred to in the report of the
Minister of Justice, approved by a mimite of the Committee of the Privy Council of
Canada on 17th December, 1898, and that if this recommendation be approved a copy
of it should be transmitted to the Secretary of State for Canada for the information
of His Excellency's government.
F. CARTER-COTTON.
Minister of Finance 'and Agriculture.
Dated this 13th day of February, A.D. 1899.
GOVERNMEXT HoUSE.
Victoria, B.C., 16th February, 1899.
The Honourable the Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Canada.
Sir, — Adverting to your despatch of the 24th December last, and to prior cor-
respondence on the subject of the anti-Japanese legislation of this province, I now
have the honour to transmit herewith, for the information of Hi.s Excellency in
Coimcil, a certified copy of a Minute of my Executive Council, approved this day,
wherein is set forth their reasons for not seeing their way clear to repeal the said
legislation.
THOS. R. McINNIS,
Lieutenant Governor.
r/7/.YP.sf; Asn ./M'Ayhsi-: immihratiox 25
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
1326— K.
Downing Street, 23rd March, 1899.
CiovERXOR General,
The Right Honourable,
The Earl of ilinto, G.C.M.G., &e., &c., &c.
My D)itD, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch Xo.
40, of the 27th February, forwarding copy of a letter from the Japanese Consul at
Vancouver in which he calk attention to certain measures which have been intrcJ-
dueed into the legislative assembly of British Columbia during its present session
piohibiting the employment of Japanese and renewing with regard to these measures
the objections which he urged against the legislation of the same nature passed by
the legislature of that province last year.
2. Her Majesty's govenmient must regret to find the government and legisla-
ture of British Columbia adopting a course which is justly regardetl as offensive by
a friendly jwwer, and they hoj* that your ministers will be able to arrange for the
cancellation of the objectionable provisions and the substitution of a measure which,
while it will secure the desired exclusion of undesirable immigrants, will obtain
that residt by mcKus of some such general test as that already suggested in my des-
patch Xo. 214 of the 20th July, 1S98. In any case. Her Majesty's government strongly
deprecate the passing of exceptional legislation affecting Japanese already in the
province.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
P. C. 1249 K.
Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by the
Governor General on March 27, 1899.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had mider consideration a despatch
hereto annexed from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia,
dated January 24, 1S99, transmitting a copy of a Minute of Council embodying a
Resolution of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, requesting that the
Dominion Government be m.oved to furnish the said assembly with certain retiims
in respect of the number of Chinese and Japanese landed in that province from
Foreign ports during the years 1897 and 1898.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce to whom the said Despatch was referred
submits the following: —
Chinese landed during the calendar year ended December 31, 1^97. at
Victoria —
Immigrants exempt 17
Immigrants paying Poll Tax 1.017
Total immigrants 1,034
Returning within six months 190
Total number landed 1.224
Capitation tax collected $.'>0,8.50
Vancouver —
Immigrants exempt 1
Immigrants paying Poll Tax 960
Total immigrants 961
Returning within six months 191
In transit through Canada 3.596
Total number landed 4,748
Capitation tax collected .$48,000
26 A\GLO-JAPANESE CONVENTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
New Westminster —
Immigrants paying Poll Tax 1
Total immigrants 1
Total number lande<l during the year 1
Capitation tax collected $ 50
Chinese landed during the calendar year ended December 31, 189S, at
Victoria —
Immigrants exempt 11
Immigrants paying Poll Tax 1,566
Total immigrants 1,577
Returning within six months . 210
Total number landed 1,787
Capitation Tax collected $78,300
Vancouver —
Immigrants paying Poll Tax 1,284
Returning within six months 313
In transit through Canada 1,937
Total landed 3,534
Capitation Tax collected $64,200
Nanaimo —
Immigrants paying Poll Tax 1
Total number landed 1
Capitation tax collected $ 50
New Westminster —
Immigrants paying Poll Tax 1
Total number landed 1
Capitation tax collected $ 50
Nelson —
Total number landed 1
Capitation tax collected $ 50
Japanese landed during the Calendar year ended the 31st December, 1897, at —
Victoria —
Total iiunibor landed <27
Vancouver —
Total number landcil 7
Japanese lundvd during the calendar year ended 31st December, 1898, at —
Victoria —
Total number landed 1,878
Vancouver —
Total number landed 671
So far as figures are procurable it would appear that thoro were lauded at quar-
antine during the two >ears: —
('hiiiesc 8,345
.lupaiu'sc 3,4 1 3
CHINESE AND JAPAXFsE IMillGRATION 27
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
' As the Jnpauese do not come under the ' Chinese Immigration Act,' no special
record has been kept showingr the destination of the Japanese, whether intendinof to
rimain in Canada or intransit through the country, but the customs officers at Van-
couver state that the hirger portion of them were intransit. but few remaining in the
Province; and also that as regards Chinese innnigrants landed at Vancouver, large
numbers of them were ticketed to eastern (^inadian points, and were sent forward im-
me<iiately after registration.
The Committee advise that a certified copy of this Minute, if approved, be for-
warded to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia for the information of the
Legislative Assembly of that Province.
P. C. i:!40— K.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Mitdo.
Downing iStreet, 4th April, 1909.
My Z/ORD, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your Despatch No.
46, of the 9th ult., covering copy of a letter from the Consul of Japan at Vancouver
on the subject of the British Columbian Liquor License Act, 1899, and tc refer in
reply to my Despatch No. 58, of the 23rd ult,, on the subject of similar 1 >gislation
passed by the legislature of the province.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
Colonial Office to the Governor General.
Downing Street, 19th April, 1899.
The Governor General,
&c., AlC, &c.
My Lord, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch No.
54 of the 16th March, forwarding copy of an approved minute of the Dominion
Privy Council to which is appended an approved report of the Executive Council of
British Columbia, expressing the concurrence of the government of that province in
a report drawn up by the Minister of Finance and Agriculture on the subject of the
Acts passed by the provincial legislature in 1S98 containing provisions prohibiting
the employment of Japanese on certain works.
2. The provincial government represent that these provisions are required by the
economic condition of British Columbia and they regret their inability to introduce
legislation for their repeal.
3. Her ilajesty's government fully appreciate the motives which have induced
the government and legislature of British Columbia to pass the legislation under
consideration, and recognize the importance of guarding against the possibility of
the white labour in the province being swamijed by the wholesale immigration of
persons of Asiatic origin. They desire also to acknowledge the friendly spirit in
which the representations they have felt compelled to make, have been received by
tile fiovernment of British Columbia, and regret that after carefully considering the
minute of the Executive Council they feel unable to withdraw the objections they
have urged to the legislation in question.
4. There is no difference between Her ^Majesty's government and the govern-
ment of British Columbia as regards the object aimed at by these laws, namely, to
ensure that the Pacific province of the Dominion shall be occupied by a large and
thoroughly British popvdation rather than by one in which the number of aliens
largely predominates, and many of the distinctive features of a settled British com-
munity are lacking.
28 AyOLO-JAPAXESE COyVENTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
5. The ground of the objection entertained by Her Majesty's government is tRat
the method employed by the British Columbia legislature for securing this object,
while admittedly only partial and ineSeetive, is such as to give legitimate offence to
a power with which Her Majesty is, and earnestly desires to remain on friendly
terms. It is not the practical exclusion of Japanese to which the government of the
Mikado objects but their exclusion nominatim, which specifically stamps the whole
nation as undesirable persons.
6. The exclusion of Japanese subjects either from the province or from employ-
ment on public or quasi public works in the province by the operation of an edu-
cational tfst, such «s is embodied in the Xatal Immigration Law is not a measure
to which the government of Japan can take exception. If the particular test in that
law is not regarded as sufficient, there is no reason why a more stringent and effec-
tive one of a similar character should not be adopted, so long as the disqualification
is not based specifically on distinction of race or colour.
7. Any attempt to restrict immigration or to impose disqualifications on such
distinctions besides being offensive to friendly powers is contrary to the general
principles of equality which have been the guiding principle of British rule through-
out the empire; and, as your ministers are aware, Her Majesty's government were
unable to allow the Immigration Eestrietiou Laws passed by some of the Australasian
colonies in 1S96 to come into operation for the same reasons as they are now urging
against these laws in British Columbia.
8. Her Majesty's government earnestly trust that on consideration of these
explanations the government of British Columbia will at once procure the repeal of
the provisions complained of and the substitution of legislation on the lines indi-
cated above
9. If this is impossible, Her Majesty's government feel compelled, however
reluctant they may be to cause inconvenience to the province, to press upon your
ministers the importance in the general interests of the empire of using the powers
vested in them by the British Xortli America Act, for cancelling these measures to
which Her Majesty's government object on the grounds both of principle and policy.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
DowNiXG Street, 29th April, 1899.
The Officer Administering
The Government of Canada.
My Lord. — I have the honour to transmit to you for communication to your
ministers, with reference to your predecessor's despatch Xo. 185, of the 7th of July
last, copy of the telegram noted below on the subject of the capitation tax on
Chinese in Canada.
EDWARD WINGFIELD,
For the Secretary of State.
(G. B. 15 Victoria, J,2.)
Secretary of State, Foreign Affairs,
London,
Canadian government introduced Hill in parliament increasing capitation tax
upon Chinese entering Canada, which would injure trade between the two nations.
We have cablegraphed Chinese ambassador, London. Protest such increase. Please
give favourable consideration.
CHINESE CONSULATE BENEVOLENCE ASSOCIATION.
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 29
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Mr. Cha'nberlain to Lord Minto.
Downing Street, 2nd May, 1899.
Governor General,
The Riglit Honourable
The Earl of Minto. G.C.M.G., &e.. &c.
My Lord, — I have the honour to request that you will be good enough to inform
your ministers that a note has been addressed to Her Majesty's government by the
Japanese minister at this court, complaining of the 'Act respecting Liquor Licen-
ses,' recently passed by the legislature of British Columbia, of which a copy was
inclosed in your despatch Xo. 46 of the 9th March.
2. Her Majesty's government can hardly suppi se that there is any urgency for
legislation to prevent the issue of licenses to sell liquor to Japanese subjects in
British Columbia, and the objections urged to the other acts of the provincial legis-
lature which have formed the subject of recent correspondence apply with equal
force to this act.
3. Her ]\fajesty's government will, therefore, be glad if your ministers will con-
sider this Act, together with those to which their attention has already been called.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
Mr. Chamherlain to Lord Minto.
Downing Street, 9th May, 1899.
Governor Genera r..
The Right Honourable
The Earl of Minto. G.C.M.G.. &c.. &c.
My I^rd, — ^I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt oi your despatch
No. 83 of the 24th ult.. forwarding copy of a letter from the Department of Justice,
representing the desirability of an early expression of the views of Her Majesty's
government with regard to the legislation affecting Japanese subjects passed by the
legislature of British Columbia in 1898.
2. In reply, I have to refer you to my despatch No. 92 of the 2nd inst.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
Downing Street, lOtn May, 1899.
The Officer Administering
The Government of Canada.
My Lord, — I have the honour to transmit to you, for communication to your
ministers, with reference to my despatch No. 89 of the 29th of April last, a copy of
the documents noted down below respecting the rumour of a proposed increase in the
amount of the capitation tax on Chinese entering British Columbia.
EDWARD WINGFIELD,
For the Secretary of State.
Chl\ese Leg.\tion, 29th April 1899.
The Marquess of Salisbury, K.G.
My Loud M.\rquess, — On the 8th May, 1897, replying to a communication from
my predecessor, Kimg Tajen, relative to a proposed increase in the poll tax levied
on Chinese subjects entering the colony of British Columbia, Your Lordship did me
the honour to inform me that Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the colonies,
having no official information on the subject of the proposed tax, had transmitted a
30 ANGLO-JAPAyESE COyVENTIOy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
copy ofKuug Tajen's note to the Governor General of Canada, with the request
that His Excellency would favour him with the observations of his minister upon it,
and a period of nearly two years having elapsed without my hearing anything more
jibout the matter, I had commenced to think that the information on which the note
of my predecessor was founded had been incorrect, or. if not, that the government
of the Dominion had abandoned the idea of raising the tax.
I regret, however, to find that this would appear not to be the case. For I
have received a telegram from the Tsungli Yamen stating that a telegram had been
received from a benevolent association of Chinese residents at Victoria, B.C.,
acquainting the Yamen that the Canadian government had introduced a bill into
parliament with the object of raising the poll tax from $50 to $500.
The Imperial government, by whom I have been instructed to again bring the
matter to the notice of Your Lordship, hope you will be able to assure them that
there is no foundation for the statement that such a bill has either been, or will be,
presented to parliament; for. otherwise, they would feel themselves compelled- to
f jotest against an act of such illiberality. and inasmuch as the bill is said to affect
f'hinese only, against it as a violation of international comity.
Within the last twenty years, the Imperial government have repeatedly had to
complain of the odious character of the legislation respecting Chinese which has
f'.vmd favour in some British colonies, and they would view the passage of the bill
in question as an aggravation of the grievances to which Chinese emigrants to those
colonies have long been exposed; and more especially would this be the case, should
the crown decline to exercise its right of vetoing the offensively discriminating
measure.
LOFENGLUH.
Foreign Office, 4th May, 1899.
Sir Chiciichex Loh Fexg-Lch, K.C.V.O.,
&e., &c., &c.
Sir, — In reply to your note of the 29th ultimo, calling attentioa to a bill which
you hear has been introduced into the Canadian parliament with the object of
raising the poll tax levied on Chinese subjects in the Dominion, I have the honour
t>. state that I have been informed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies that he
has heard nothing further from the Governor General of Canada since July last, at
which time it appeared that the Dominion government had no intention of increas-
ing the tax in question.
Mr. Chamberlain will, however, at once communicate with the Earl of ilinto on
the subject, and I shall have the honour of addressing a further note to you in duo
course.
SALISBURY.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Mmto.
London, 25th May, 1899.
In my despatch No. !)2 of 2nd May. furtlicr note has been received from
Japanese legation urging disallowed legislation objected to before the expiration of
statutory period. Hope you will Ixj able to communicate your minister's decision
soon.
CHAMBERLAIN.
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 31
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
From the Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Ottawa, 2nd June, 1899.
To the Honourable,
C. A. Semlin, Premier,
Victoria. B.C. ,
The Federal government has only four days in which to disallow your acts
relating to Japanese as urged by Imperial government which fears prejudice to
Imperial relations with Japan if Act referring to Japanese is allowed to go into effect.
Have yon any suggestion to make as to this legislation so far as it relates to
the Japanese?
Immediate reply necessary.
WILFRID LAFRIER.
From the Hon. C. A. Semlin.
Victoria, B.C., 3rd June, 1899.
To the Honourable,
Sir Wn.FRiD Laurier.
Telegram received. Regret that in justice to the interests of labour in British
Columbia can only refer you to minute of council of February last, copy of which
you have no doubt received.
C. A. SEMLIN.
1194.
ExTR.\CT from a report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council,
approved by His Excellency on the 5th June, 1899.
The committee have had under consideration a report, hereto annexed, dated
.29th May, 1899, from the Minister of Justice, referring to the minute of council
aj)proved on the 17th December, 1898, respecting the statutes of the province of'
British Columbia, 1898. and stating that as to chapter 39 ' An Act respecting the.
Canadian Pacific Navigation Company, Limited." he has been informed that the
provincial legislature at its last session, pursuant to the recommendation contained
in the said minute of council, passed an amendment removing the grounds of objec-
tion to which the ilinister of Justice called attention in his report of the 8th Novem-
ber, 1898, approved by the said minute, and that the Act may, therefore be left tic
its operation.
The minister recommends with respect to the Acts which were stated by the
said report to be objectionable as affecting Japanese in British Columbia, which
Acts are chapters 10, 28, 30, 44, 46, 47, 48, 50, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63
and 64, that the same be left to their operation except chapters 28 and 44, with an
earnest recommendation to the provincial government based upon the reasons stated
in his report of the 29th May. 1899, herewith, that at the next ensuing session of the
legislature they introduce legislation in each case to repeal the clause in question.
The minister further recommends for the reasons set forth in the said report of
the 29th May, 1899, that chapter 28 of the statutes of the province of British
Columbia, 1898, intituled " An Act relating to the employment of Chinese or Japanese
persons on works carried on under franchises granted by Private Acts,' and also
chapter 44 of the said statutes intituled ' The Tramway Incorporation Amendment
Act, 1898.' be disallowed.
The committee concur in the said report and the recommendations therein set
forth and submit the same for Your Excellency's approval, and the committee
23 AXGLO-jAPAy EsE coyvEyTioy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
advise that a certified copy of this minute, if approved, together with a copy of the
said report, be transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Cohimbia for the
information of his government.
JOHN J. McGEE.
Clerh of fh^ Privy Council.
Department of Jistice,
OTT.WA, May 29, 1899.
To His Excellency
The Governor General in Council
British Coll mbia Legislation.
The undersigned referring to his report respecting the statutes of the province
of British Columbia of 1S98, dated the Sth of November last, which was approved by
Your Excellency in Council on 17th December, has the honour to state that as
to chapter 39: 'An Act respecting the Canadian Pacific Navigation Company,
Limited,' the undersigned has been informed that the provincial legislature at its
last session pursuant to the recommendation of the said report, passed an amend-
ment removing the grounds of objection to which the undersigned called attention,
and that the Act may. therefore, be left to its operation.
The Acts which are stated by the said report to be objectionable as affecting
Japanese in British Columbia, are chapters 10. 28, 30, 44. 46. 47. 48, 50, 52, 53, 54, 55,
56, 57. 58, 59, 60, 61. 62, 63 and 64.
As to these statutes the recommendations of the said report have been carried
into effect, and Your E.xcellency's government have communicated with Her
Majesty's government and with the provincial government.
The undersigned by his report of 7th March last, which was approved by Your
Excellency on the 13th March, submitted copy of the reply of the provincial gov-
ernment and recommended that it be transmitted to the Right Honourable the
Principal Secretary of States for the colonies in order that he might submit any
observations which he might deem proper for the consideration of Your Excellency's
government.
" There has been referred to the undersigned, copy of a despatch from Mr.
Chamberlain to Your Excellency, dated 23rd March last, acknowledging the des-
patch of Your Excellency of the 27th February, No. 40. forwarding copy of a letter
from the Japanese Consul at Vancouver in which he calls attention to certain
measures which were introduced by the legislature of British Columbia during the
last session prohibiting the emplo.vmeut of .Japanese, and renewing with regard to
these measures the objections which he urged against the legislation now in question.
It is stated in this despatch that Her Majesty's government much regret to find the
government and legislature of the province of British Columbia adopting a course
which is justly regarded as offensive by a friendly power and that Her Majesty's
government strongly deprecates the passing of exceptional legislation affecting
Japanese already in British Columbia.
The undersigned has carefully considered the reasons stated in support of
the legislation b.v the government of British Columbia. He observes that the
statutes in question have not rendered unlawful the employment of Japanese gener-
aT!y, yet they have that effect so far as the companies incorporated by the provin-
cial legislature and within the application of these statutes are concerned. Such
h'gislatiiin nia.v operate to dimini.-^h Chinese and Japanese immigration into the
province which as appears by the statement of the provincial government is the
main object, or. if. as is to be inferred from the provincial despatch, the conditions
are such as to induce employers to prefer Asiatic labour, the result might be such as
to cause employers to carry on their business as individuals or partnerships rather
CHI\ESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 33
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
than as corporations under the laws of the province. The undersigned does not con-
eid<'r, however, that the reasons urged on behalf of the province or any other reasons
which occur to him are such as to justify Your Excellency's government in approv-
ing of the legislation, in view of the strong objections urged against it by the govern-
ment of Japan, which objections have been so far upheld by Her Majesty's govern-
ment as the correspondence upon the subject shows. The advantages to be derived
by the province of British Columbia from these enactments are in the opinion of
the undersigned very doubtful and not at all corresponjiing in importance to the
advantngc which may be expected both for the province and tjlie Dominion at
large from a friendly sentiment on the part of Japan in matters of commerce and
otherwise. When it is considered further that these enactment;* may affect not
only the relations between the Dominion and Japan, but also the relations of
the empire with the latter country, as Iler Majesty's government seem to appre-
hend they may do, the duty of Your Excellency's government to provide a remedy
so far as the circumstances fairly permit, becomes apparent.
It is pertinent here to remark also that the authority of a province to legislate
in relation to immigration in the province is. by the British North America Act,
made subordinate to the authority of parliament, and as these Acts are upheld
largely as affecting imniigration, the case seems to be one in which it is intended
that Dominion policy should prevail.
The power of the legislature to enact these statutes is not by anv means free
from doubt because they principally affect the rights of aliens, and the subject of
aliens is not within provincial authority. It is not, however, in view of the foregoing
considerations neeessary at present to determine the question of ultra vires.
The undersigned observes that chapter 28 to which the short title is given of
' The Labour Regulation Act, 1898,' is confined in its provisions to the employment,
in British Colunibia, of Chinese or Japanese, and chapter 44, entitled the Tramway
Incorporation Amendment Act, 1898. These Acts may, therefore, be disallowed
without serious inconvenience. The other statutes mentioned in the report of the
luidersigned, of 8th November last, are mainly concerned with the incorporation of
companies, and they came into effect upwards of a year ago. In these cases or some
of them doubtless companies have been organized and property acquired, debts and
obligations incurred and business transacted on account of which great inconveni-
ence, confusion and loss would result if the Acts upon which these companies depend
were now disallowed. The corporations themselves and the persons who have dealt
with them cannot properly be held responsible for the objectionable provision in the
constituting Acts, because this section seems to have been introduced in pursuance
of a policy of the government to disqualify Chinese and Japanese from employment
by provincial corporations. The effect of such a provision also, being confined to a
few corporations, is comparatively limited. The undersigned, therefore, considers
that the justice of the case will be met by disallowing the General Act, namely
chapter 28, cited as ' The Labour Regulation Act, 1898,' and also chapter 44 entitled
■" The Tramway Incorporation Amendment Act, 1898 ;' and on account of the incon-
venience, confusion and loss which would otherwise ensue, leaving the other statutes
to their operation, with an earnest recommendation to the provincial government
based upon the reasons stated in this report that at the next ensuing session of the
legislature they introduce legislation in each case to repeal the clause in question.
The undersigned further recommends that a copy of this report, if approved, be
transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia, for the information of
his government.
Respectfully submitted,
D. MILLS,
Minist^ of Justice.
T4b— 3
34 AXGLo-.jAPA\ESE coyvEyTioy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 19C3
AT THE GOVEENMENT HOl'SE AT OTTA^YA.
Monday, the otli day of June, 1899.
Present : His Excellency in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with the
legislative assembly of that province, did on the 20th day of May, 1898, pass an
Act which has been transmitted, chaptered 28, and intituled : ' An Act relating to
the employment of Chines'e or Japanese persons on works carried on under Fran-
chises granted by private Acts ; '
And whereas the said Act has been laid before His Excellency the Governor
General in Council, together with a report from the Minister of Justice recommend-
ing that the said Act should be disallowed;
Therefore, His Excellency, by and with the advice of the Queen's Privy Council
for Canada has this day been pleased to declare his disallowance of the said Act, and
the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
L Sir Gilbert John Elliott Murray Kynnynmond, Earl of Minto, Governor
General of Canada, do hereby certify that the Act passed by the legislature of the
province of British Columbia on the 20th day of May, 1898, chaptered 28, and in-
tituled: 'An Act relating to the employment of Chinese or Japanese i)ersons on
works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts,' was received by His
Excellency the Governor General of Canada on the Sth day of June, 1898.
Given under my hand and seal this Sth day of June, 1899.
MIXTO.
AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA.
MoND.w, the 5th day of June, 1899.
Present: His Excellency in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with the
legislative assembly of that province, did on the 20th day of May, 1898, pass an Act
which has been transmitted, chaptered 44, and intituled: 'An Act to amend the
Tramway Incorporation Act ; '
And whereas the said Act has been laid before His Excellency the Governor
General in Council, together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommend-
ing that the said Act should be disallowed ;
Therefore, His Excellency, by and with the advice of the Queen's Privy Council
for Canada, has this day been pleased to declare his disallowance of the said Act, and
the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOIIX J. McGEE.
Clerk of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott Murray Fvynn.vnmond, Earl of Minto, Governor
General of Canada, do hereby certify that the Act passed by the legislature of the
CBiyESE A\D JAPAXESE IMillGRATIOy 35
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
province of British Columbia on the 20th day of May, 1898, chaptered 44, and in-
tituled: 'An Act to amend the Tramway Incorporation Act,' was received by His
Excellency the Governor General of Canada on the 8th day of June, 1898.
Given under my hand and seal this 5th day of June, 1899.
INflNTO.
Report of the Hon. ihe Minister of Justice, approved hy His Excellency the Governor
General in Council on the Hth December, 1899.
Department of Justice, Ott.^wa, 14th November, 1899.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has had under consideration the statutes of the legislative
assembly of the province of British Columbia, passed in the sixty-second year of Her
Majesty's reign, 1899, and received by the Secretary of State for Canada on 27th
April, and he is of opinion that these statutes may be left to their operation without
comment with the exception of the following: —
Chapter 16. ' An Act to amend " The Constitution Act." ""
Section 2 of this statute amends section 9 of chapter 47 of the revised statutes
of British Columbia, 1897, by adding thereto a subsection to the effect that the
section amended shall be deemed to include the power of commuting and remitting
sentences for offences against the laws of the province, or offences over which the
legislative authority of the province extends.
The undersigned considers that this Act may be left to its operation, but in this
connection desires to call attention to the observations of Sir Oliver Mowat. when
Minister of Justice, in his report of 16th October, 1896 (approved by His Excel-
lency in Council on 13th November, 1896), upon chapter 1 of tie statutes of Nova
Scotia, 1896. which statute contained a provision substantially the same as that now
under consideration.
Chapter 39. ' An Act respecting Liquor Licenses.'
By section 36 of this Act, it is provided that no license under this Act shall be
issued or transferred to any person of the Indian, Chinese or Japanese race.
Chapter 44. ' An Act to grant a subsidy to a railway from Midway to Pentic-
ton.'
Section 6 of this chapter provides that no Chinese or Japanese person shall be
employed or permitted to work in the construction or operation of any railway sub-
sidized under this Act, under a penalty.
Chapter 46. An Act to amend ' The Coal Mines Regulation Act.'
This Act amends chapter 136 of the revised statutes of British Columbia hy
inserting the word ' Japanese ' after the word ' Chinaman ' in the fourth and twelfth
6ections of the Act amended.
Chapter 78. An Act to incorporate ' The Asheroft Water, Electric and Improve-
ment Company.
Chapter 79. An Act to incorporate ' The Atlin Short Line Railway and Naviga-
tion Company.
Chapter 80. An Act to incorporate ' The Atlin Southern Railway Company.'
Chapter 81. An Act to incorporate ' The Big Bend Transportation Company,
Limited.'
Chapter 83. An Act to incorporate ' The Kamlonps and Atlin Railway Company.'
Chapter 84. An Act to amend ' The Kitimaat Railway Act, 1898.'
Chapter 85. An Act to amend ' The Kootenay and North-west Railway Com-
pany's Act, 1898.'
Chapter 86. An Act to amend ' The North Star and Arrow Lake Railwav Act,
1898.'
74b— 3i
36 AyOLO-JAPANESE COyVENTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
Chapter 87. An Act to incorporate ' The Pine Creek Flume Company, Limited.'
Chapter 88. An Act to incorporate ' The South Kootenay Kailway Company.'
Chapter 89. An Act to incorporate ' The Vancouver, Xorthern and Yukon Rail-
way Company.'
Eeach of these statutes contain a provision in effect that Chinese or Japanese
persons shall not employed by the company.
For the reasons stated in the correspondence which took place between Tour
Excellency's government and the government of British Columbia with regard to the
statutes of that province for the year 1898. and in the orders of Tour Excellency in
Council with regard to the same, the imdersigned considers it undesirable that these
provisions affecting Japanese should be allowed to remain in operation. In view of
the action taken by Your Excellency's government with respect to the statutes of
1898. containing similar clauses, and the reasons then influencing Your Excellency's
government which still hold good, the undersigned entertains the hope that upon the
attention of the government of British Columbia beirg drawn to the matter, that
government will undertake to have these statutes amended by repealing the clauses
referred to which affect Japanese.
The undersigned considers that the government of British Columbia should be
asked to consider the matter and state whether these statutes will be amended as
desired within the time limited for disallowance. In the meantime the undersigned
withholds any further recommendation as to the statutes in question.
It may be proper to state that communications upon this .subject have been re-
ceived by Your Excellency's government, both from the Principal Secretary of State
for the Colonies, and from His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul at Vancouver.
Copies of these are submitted herewith, and should, in the opinion of the undersigned,
be forwarded as part of the despatch which the undersigned recommends should be
sent to the provincial legislature.
Chapter 4.3. An Act to amend ' The Master and Servant Act.'
This statute enacts that any agreement or bargain which may be made between
any person, and any person not a resident of British Columbia for the performance
of labour or service, having reference to the performance of labour or service by such
Iierson in the province of British Columbia, and made previous to the migration or
coming into British Columbia of such other person, whose labour or service is con-
tracted for, shall be void and of no effect as against the person only, so migrating or
coming.
There is a provision exempting skilled workmen from the operation of this sec-
tion under certain circumstances.
The undersigned doubts the authority of a provincial legislature to enact a pro-
vision of this kind, because it seems directly to affect the regulations of trade.
The undersigned does not, however, on that account recommend the disallowance
of the Act.
Chapter iSO. ' An Act to amend the Placer Mining Act.'
There has l)oen referred to the undersigned, copy of a despatch from the British
ambassador at W.-'shington to Your Excellency, transmitting copy of a note received
from the TTnited States Secretary of State, inclosing copy of a petition to the Presi-
dent of the T'nited States from the Fnitefl States Citizens resident in the Atlin dis-
trict of British Columbia, representing the hardships to their interests of the legisla-
tion contained in this statute. The British ambassador states that Mr. Hay suggests
that the petition be submitted to Your Excellency's government without thereby rais-
ing any Issue as to the general effect of the U'gislation in question. Copy of the de-
spatch with the inclosure.^ referred to were formally submitted by the \indersigned
to Your Excellency, and Your Excellency on 2nd May last was pleased to approve the
recommendation of the undersigned, advising that a copy of these papers sho\ild be
sent to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia for his observations, with a
CmXESE A.\D JAP.iXEsE IMMIGRATION 37
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
view to further consideration of the matter by Your Excellency's government, and
also that the British ambassador be informed of the course taken in the meantime.
The communication so recommended was addressed to the Lieutenant Governor of
British Columbia early in May last, as the undersigned is informed, but no reply has
been received.
The undersigned at present recommends that the matter be called again to the
attention of the Lieutenant Governor with a request for his reply at his early con-
venience.
The following chapters above mentioned are also subject to another objection,
viz. : —
Chapter 79. ' An Act to incori>orate the Atlin Short Line Railway and Naviga-
tion Company.'
Chapter 80. ' An Act to incorporate the Atlin Southern Railway Company.'
Chapter 83. ' An Act to incorporate the Kamloops and Atlin Railway Company.'
Chapter 84. ' An Act to amend the Kitimaat Railway Act, 1898.'
Chapter 85. ' An Act to amend the Kootenay and Northwest Railway Company's
Act, 1898.'
Chapter 86. ' An Act to amend the North Star and Arrow Lake Railway Act,
1898.'
Chapter 88. ' An Act to incorporate the South Kootenay Railway Company.'
Chapter 89. ' An Act to incorporate the Vancouver, Northern and Yukon Rail-
way Company.'
These are statutes incorporating railway companies, and each of them contains a
provision that in case at any time the railway is declared by the parliament of Can-
ada to be a work for the general advantage of Canada, then all powers and privileges
granted by the Act of incorporation of the company or by the British Columbia Rail-
way Act, shall thereupon cease and determine.
The undersigned apprehends that there are cases in which the parliament of
Canada may properly declare a railway, otherwise subject to the exclusive authority
of a province, to be for the general advantage of Canada, and that when such declara-
tion is properly made, it is intended by the constitution that the work shall cease to
be within the legislative authority of the province, and shall fall within the exclusive
jurisdiction of parliament. Such being the case it is, in the opinion of the under-
signed, incompetent to a provincial legislature to provide as to what is to take place
in the event of parliament exercising that constitutional authority, as the result of
which the subject of legislation is withdrawn from provincial jurisdiction. These sec-
tions, though improper, are therefore harmless, and were it possible that they could
have any effect, the whole matter would be within the authority of parliament, upon
its declaring the work for the general advantage of Canada, so that parliament might
re'-enact or confirm in each case the very provisions which the legislature says are to
cease and determine.
Chapter 82. ' An Act to incorporate the Chartered Commercial Company of Van-
couve.'.'
Some of the objects of this company, as stated in section 2, appear to relate to the
subject of banking rather than to any matter within the legislative authority of the
province. The undersigned observes, however, that by section 17 it is enacted that
nothing in this statute contained shall authorize, or be construed to authorize, the
company to engage in banking, insurance, or the construction of railways. The
limitation so introduced seems to render it unnecessary for the undersigned to con-
sider the propriety of disallowing this Act, as he would otherwise feel called upon
to do.
With the exception, therefore, of the statutes above mentioned affecting Japanese,
and chapter :iO to amend the Placer Mining Act, the undersigned considers that these
38 AXGLO-JAPiyEi^E coyvEyTwx
8-9 EDWARD VII.. A. 1909
Statutes may, for the reasons above s-tateJ, be left to their operation. As to the Acts
so excepted, a further report may be necessary upon hearing from the provincial gov-
ernment.
The undersigned recommends that a copy of this report, if approved, be trans-
mitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia for the information of his
government, and that the Lieutenant Governor be urged to reply as speedily as pos-
sible to those portions of the report which are intended to call for a reply.
Respectfully submitted,
DAVID MILLS.
Minkter of Justice.
Hii Honour the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia to the Hon. the Secretary
of State.
GovERXMEXT HousE, ViCTORU, B.C., 9th February, 1900.
Sir, — r have the honour to transmit herewith, for the information of His Excel-
lency's government, certified copy of a minute of my Executive Council, dated the
8th instant, adopting a report from the Hon. the Attorney General of this province
in regard to the minute of the Privy Council, dated the 14th December last, respecting
the statutes of this province during the year 1889.
THOS. R. McINNES.
Lieutenant Governor.
Copy of a Report of the Attorney General of British Cohimhia. approved hy His
Honour the Lieutenant Governor in Council on the 8th Fehruari/, 1900.
To His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in Council:
The nndersig-ned has the honour to rejiort that he has had under consideration the
communication of the Under Secretary of State, dated the 20th December, 1899,
transmitting a minute of the Privy Council, dated the 14th December, 1399, respecting
the statutes passed by the legislative assembly of the province of British Columbia
in the 62nd .vear of Her Majesty's reign.
The undersigned begs respectfully to call attention to a minute of the Executive
Council of British Columbia, approved on the 14th day of February, 1899, and to urge
upon the consideration of His E.xcellency's advisers the following extracts from the
said last mentioned mintite:
' All that is sought to be attained by the legislation in question is, that Chinese or
Japanese persons shall not be allowed to find emplojnnent on works, the construction
of which has been authorized or made possible of accomplishment, by the granting of
certain privileges or franchises by the legislature.'
' It will, therefore, be seen that the restrictive provisions are merely iji the nature
of a condition in agreements or contracts, between the provincial government and
particular iiulividuals or companies, whereby certain privileges, franchises, conces-
sions and in some eases also, subsidies and guaraiitivs are granted to such individuals
or companie.s, in consideration of only white labour being cnipUiyed in the works wliich
are the subject matter of such agreements.
' The same causes which have led the legislatures of Natal and the Australian
colonies to take measures to restrict the influx of large numbers of labouring people
from .\3ia, exist in British Columbia. The.v are indeed more potent here, on account
of the shorter distance intervening between China and .Japan and this province, as
compared with that between those countries and Australia or Xatal.
' It may also be pointed out in this connection that the possibility of great dis-
turbance to the economic conditions existing liere. and of grave injury being caused
CHINESE A\D ./.l/'.4At\S77 IHmuU.iTlON 39
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
to the working classes of tliis country, by a large influx of labourers from Japan, was
so npparont that the government of Canada decided it was not advisable that the
Dominion should participate in the revised treaty between Great Britain and Japan,
whereby equal privileges were granted to the people of each nation in the country of
(he other.
' The economic conditions in British Columbia and Japan, and the standards of
living of the masses of the people in the two countries differ so widely, that to grant
freedom of employment on such public works as are authorized to be carried out by
the Acts of the legislature, would almost certainly result in all such emplojnnent being
monopolized by the Japanese, to the exclusion of the people of this province.
' Therefore, while the legislature has scruplously abstained from any interfer-
ence with the employment of Japanese by private individuals or companies, and has
not sought to put any rcstricion on their engaging in any ordinary occupation or
business, it has deemed it to be in the interests of the province to prohibit their em-
ployment on works or undertakings for which it has granted privileges or franchises.
' That such restrictions are not only judicious, but necessary, has been shown
by the manner in which cheap Asiatic labour has in many cases supplanted white
labour on works to which no such restrictions as those referred to were attached.
'While it would be a matter of profound regret if any action of the government
or legislature of this province should cause Tier Majesty's govenmient any embarrass-
ment, or impair its friendly relations with another power, it may be pointed out that
there are other considerations of an Imperial character involved in this matter.
' It is unquestionably in the interests of the Empire that the Pacific province of
the Dominion should be occupied by a large and thoroughly Brtish population, rather
than by one in which the number of aliens largely predominated, and many of the dis-
tinctive features of a settled British community were lacking.
' The former condition could not be secured were the masses of the people sub-
jected to competition which would render it impossible for them to maintain a fair and
reasonable standard of living.
' For many years the evil effects of unrestricted Chinese immigration caused great
agitation in British Columbia, and the imposition of the capitation tax of $50 was the
consequence.
' Since then, gi-eater facilities of communication with Japan, and the opportuni-
ties for employment in British Columbia arising from the development of its forests,
mineral and fishery resources have led to an influx of Japanese which has materially
and injuriously interfered with white labotir. and has caused the legislature to pass
the statutes now under consideration.
' There is no reason to believe that this influx of Japanese is likely to diminish.
On the contrary, there are many indications that it will become larger, and that Jap-
nese labour will, if some restrictive measures are not adopted, entirely supplant white
labour in many important industries, and be used almost exclusively on works carried
out under franchises granted by the legislature, and which are in many cases aided
by subsidies from the provincial treasury, largely with the object of opening up the
province and inducing an immigration of desirable settlers.
'The undersigned therefore recommends that a reply be made to the government
of the Dominion, that His Honour's government regrets that, in the interests of
British Columbia and the labouring classes among its people, it cannot see its way to
introduce a measure in the legislature to repeal the provisions restricting the employ-
ment of Chinese and Japanese in the statutes referred to in the report of the Minister
of Justice, approved by a minute of the Privy Council of Canada on 17th December,
1898, and that, if this recommendation be approved, a copy of it should be transmitted
to the Secretary of State for Canada for the information of His Excellency's govern-
ment.'
The undersigned begs respectfully to submit that the conditions of labour have in
40 ANGLO-JAPANESE CONVENTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
no way changed since the report above quoted from was forwarded to His Excellency's
government less than one year ago.
Since that time, the undersigned regrets to say, His Excellency's government
has seen fit to disallow the ' Labour Regulation Act, 1908,' which had for its main
object the protecting of this province from Oriental labour. His Excellency's govern-
ments asks this government what it is proposed to do with reference to the private
legislation passed by this legislature in 1899, and it is intimated that such Acts may
be disallowed if this government does not see its way to bring in a Bill excluding
Japanese from the operation of the said Acts.
Before consenting to the suggested proceeding the undersigned begs respectfully
to urge upon the consideration of HLs Excellency's government the grave risk of excit-
ing discontent in the province, and political friction between the two governments,
should this government bring in such legislation without some assurance from His
Excellency's government that it will as soon as possible after the opening of the
Dominion House of Commons, introduce legislation increasing the capitation tax
upon Chinese to $500, and that His Excellency's government should also introduce a
Bill on the lines of the Natal Act imposing an educational test upon immigrants.
The feeling in this province is so strong against the immigration of labouring
classes from the Orient, that this government is convinced that powerful influences
will be brought to bear to induce this government to request the legislatiire to re-enact
the ' Labour Regulation Act ' above referred to.
The undersigned begs respectfully to submit that such a course might not un-
reasonably be the means of precipitating an acrimonious discussion between His Ex-
cellency's government and the government of this province, which in all probability,
would be extremely embarrassing to both.
The undersigned would also urge upon the consideration of His Excellency's
government, the Private Acts containing the clause respecting Japanese, to which
objection has been taken, and the disallowance of which Acts would seriously injure
those in whose interests the legislation was passed.
These parties were all obliged to incur considerable expense before the completion
of the legislation, and some of them have expended large sums of money upon the
strength of the Bills having passed the legislature.
His Excellencys government will, therefore, readily realize that in some, if not in
all the cases alluded to, great hardship would be inflicted by the disallowance of the
Acts referred to in the minute of the Privy Council, dated 14th December, 1899, to
which allusion has already been made.
The undersigned, in conclusion, begs respectfully to urge upon His Excellency's
government the extreme ugency of the present position, and to request that a reply
may be communicated to Your Honour by telegraph.
Dated this 6th day of February, A.D., 1900.
ALEXANDER HENDERSON,
Attorney General.
P. C. 73 L. '
{Telegram).
Vancouver, February 13, 1900.
Your Excellency's attention is respectfully called to the fact that the bill entitled
' An Act to amend the Tramway Incorporation Act,' and various private bills con-
taining sections that prohibit Japanese from certain employments are introduced in
the Legislature of British Columbia. Also ' An Act to amend the Coal Mines Rejnila-
tions Act,' which aims at exclusion of Oriental labour. Urging the same objections
CniTiEsE AM) JAPAXESf: IMMIGRATloy 41
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
to these bills as I have before urged, may I respectfully request Your Excellency's
best consideration ?. Am mailing.
S. SHIMIZU,
Imperial Japanese Consul.
The Honourable
the Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Canada.
Go\ERNME.vT lIoiSE, VICTORIA, B.C., February 15, 1900.
Sir. — I have the honour to transmit herewith, for the consideration of His Excel-
lency's Government, certitied copy of a Minute of my Executive Council, dated the
14th instant, which embodies a resolution of the Legislative Assembly of this pro-
vince, now in session, expressive of the opinion of that body that the admission of
Mongolians to the rights of citizenship would not conduce to the interests of this
country, and requests the amendment of the Naturalization Act with a view to prevent
ai.y native of Asia from becoming a British subject in Canada.
THOS. R. McINNES,
Lieutenant Governor.
PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA.
Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council, approved
by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 14th day of February, 1900.
The Committee of Council submit for the approval of His Honour the Lieu-
tenant Governor the undermentioned resolution of the Legislative Assembly, namely:
' That whereas, under the provisions of the Naturalization Act. many Chinese
and J apanese have become British subjects :
' And whereas it is highly detrimental to the best interests of the country that
the franchise and other rights and privileges attached to British citizenship should
be conferred upon Mongolians or any native race of Asia :
' Be it therefore resolved. That this House views with alann the admission of
Mongolians to the rights of citizenship, and that the Dominion Government be re-
quested so to change the naturalization laws that it will be impossible for any Mon-
golians or person belonging to any othero of the native races of Asia, to become a
The Committee advise that a copy of this Minute, if approved, be forwarded to
British subject.
the Honourable the Secretary of State.
Dated this 12th day of February, 1900.
A. CAMPBELL REDDIT:,
Deputy Cleric, Executive Council.
Japanese Consul for Canada to Lord Minto/.
Vancouver, B.C., loth February, 1900.
Tour Excellency, — In the name of His Imperial Japanese Majesty's government,
J have the honour of calling your attention to the fact that in the legislative assembly
it British Columbia are introduced a Bill entitled ' An Act to amend the Tramway
Incorporation Act ' and various private Bills, all of which contain sections prohibiting
the employment of Japanese in works authorized by such Acts. As will be observed
in the copy herewith inclosed the wording of the Bill first named is exactly the same
as that of the Act bearing the same name that was disallowed by Your Excellency's
government on 5th June last y€ar.
42 ANGLO-JAPAyEi<E COXVEyTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
In another Bill entitled ' An Act t o amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act,' in-
troduced by Hon. the President of the Council, Tour Excellency will observe that an
educational test has seemingly been set up in the section three of the Bill for any
person to be employed underground in coal mines. But it is openly declared on the
floor by the honourable member of the provincial government that ' there was no use
disguising the fact that the Bill aimed at the exclusion of one certain class — the
Orientals,' the last word evidently including Japanese. It is clearly elucidated by
some members (especially Mr. A. E. McPhillips and Colonel Baker) that the proposer
of the Bill intended to do indirectly what was vetoed directly by the highest court of
appeal. Your Excellency will see full account of the debate on this Bill in the copies
of the press herewith inclosed. Two sample copies of the Private Bills are also in-
closed.
And, urging the same objections to those Bills as I had the honour of urgingj
against legislation of the same nature passed at the last session, I most respectfully
request you to extend to the present instance the same enlightened and vigorous policy
that was pursued in regard to the legislation of late years, and that if those Bills
should be passed here. Tour Excellency will give that legislation such consideration
as will lead to the disallowance of the same.
I avail myself of this occasion to renew to Your Excellency the assurance of my
highest consideration.
S. SHIMIZU,
Hk Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
+ Enclosures.
Copy of the Bill No. 15.
Copy of the Bill Xo. 14.
* Sample copies of private Bills.
Vancouver World, 1st and 2nd Februar.v.
Vancouver News Adrertiser, 2nd and 3rd February.
Victoria Colonist, 13th and 14th February.
Eeport of the lion, the Minister of Justice, approved by His Excellency the Governor
General in Council on the 24th April. 1900.
Department of Ji"STice, Ottawa, April 12, 1900.
To Ilis Excellency the Governor Genenil in Council:
The undersigned referring to his report of 14th November, 1S99, approved by
Your E.xcellency on 14th December, 1899, upon the statutes of the legislative assembly
of the province of British Columbia, passpil in the year 1890, has the honour to state
that in the said rpiv>rt h called attention to the following statute as affecting
Japanese or their rights to employment in British Columbia, viz. :—
Chapter 39. ' An Act respecting Liquor Licenses.'
Chapter 44. An Act to grant a subsidy to a railway from Midway to Penticton.'
Chapter 46. 'An Act to amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act.'
Chapter 78. ' An Act to incorporate the Ashcroft Water, Electric and Improve-
ment Company.'
Chapter 79. ' An Act to incorporate the Atliu Short Line Railway and Naviga-
tion Company.'
Chapter 80. 'An Act to incorporate the Atlin Southern Railway Compan.v.'
Chapter 81. ' An Act to incorporate the Big Bend Transportation Company,
Limited.'
Chapter 83. 'An Act to incorporate the Kamloops and Atlin Railway Company.'
Chapter 84. 'An Act to amend tlie Kitimaat Railwav Act, 1898.'
CBIXE8E AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 43
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Chapter 85. ' An Act to amend the Kootonay and North-west Railway Company's
Act, 1S98.'
Chapter SC. ' An Act to amend the Xortli Star and Arrow Lake Railwav Act,
1898.'
Chapter 87. 'An Act to incorporate the Pine Creek Flume Company, Limited.'
Chapter 88. ' An Act to incorporate tlic South Kootenay Railway Company.' and
Chapter 89. ' An Act to incorporate the Vancouver, Xorthern and Yukon Railway
Company.'
The undersigned, for reasons stated or referred to in the said reix)rt. considered
it undesirable that the provisions affecting Japanese contained in these Acts should
remain in operation, and has recommended that the British Columbia government
should be asked to consider and state whether these clauses would be repealed within
the time limited for disallowance. A copy of this report as approved, was duly trans-
mitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia, but no assurance has been
received that any amendment will be made to any of these statutes. The legislature
has also been dissolved, -and as the time for disallowance will expire within a few
days it becomes necessarj- for Your Excellency to take further action, unless these
enactments are to remain.
As in the case of the legislation of British Columbia for the year 1S9S. which
was found objectionable upon the same ground, there are two classes of statutes now
in question.
Chapter 39. ' An Act respecting Liquor Licenses.'
Chapter -14. ' An Act to grant a subsidy to a railway from Midway to Penticton,'
and
Chapter 46. ' An Act ix> amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act,' are Acts of more or
less general operation, not dealing specially with private interests, and may be disal-
lowed without inconvenience. The other statutes above mentioned, however, are Acts of
incorporation of private companies, or Acts in amendment of such incorporating
Acts. The .section affecting Japanese has apparently been introduced into these Acts
r.ot at the instance of the companies, but in pursuance of the policy of the provincial
government; and in these circumstances the undersigned considers it would be unjust
and perhaps productive of great hardship, if the charters of these companies or tlie
Acts upon which their powers depend, were disallowed. The reasons wh'ch on a pre-
vious occasion operated to save the private Acts from disallowance, may similarly
rgain avail. The iindersigned reaches this conclusion the more readily because he is
of opinion that the provision* in question are vlfra vires of the provincial legislature,
as affecting aliens.
Inasmuch, however, as certain statutes of British Columbia were disallowed in
1899 on account of provisions, attempting to render illegal the employment of Janan-
ese, and as certain other statutes will, if this report be approved, soon be disallowed for
the same reason, the undersigned considers that by the time of another session of the
legislature it will be safe to hold that the views of Her Majesty's government and of
this government with regard to anti-Japanese legislation, are generally and sufficiently
imderstood in British Columbia, and, therefore, it may well be considered, in case of
this objectionable section appearing in future Acts of incorporation or Acts affecting
private companies, that these companies' Acts ought not to have exceptional treatment.
The applicants may be held to have obtained the legislation at their own risk, and
persons dealing with corporations ineorporated by charters attempting to imi)o.se dis-
abilities upon aliens may also be held to have acted with notice of the views enter-
tained by Your Excellency's government, and of the action which would probably be
taken with resijcct to such measures.
For these reasons, and the reasons stated in previous correspondence and reports,
the undersigned recommends the disallowance of the said chapters 39, 44 and 46, and
that the other chapters above mentioned be left to their operation.
44 AXGLO-JAPAKESE CONVENTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
The undersigned in the «ame report referred to chapter 50, ' An Act to amend
the Placer Mining Act.'
That Act has also been the subject of a special report of the undersigned, dated
12th January-, 1900, approved by Tour Excellency on 10th February.
By the last mentioned report the undersigned set out the reasons on account of
which he considered that the statute was ultra vires, and ought to be disallowed. This
report, in pursuance of the recommendation of the undersigned, has been communi-
cated to the provincial authorities, and there has just been referred to the undersigned
a despatch of the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia, dated 7th instant, trans-
mitting copy of an approved minute of the Executive Council of the province, dated
6th instant, adopting the report of the Provincial Attorney General upon the commu-
nication of Your Excellency's government. The Attorney General states in his report
that he differs from the view of the undersigned as to the authority of the legislature
to pass the statute in question, both so far as aliens are concerned and as to incor-
porated companies. He states, however, that at the recent session of the legislative
assembly it was practically the unanimous opinion of the members that it was advis-
able to repeal the Placer Mining Amendment Act, 1899. that the present government
of the province has announced as part of its policy an intention to introduce a measure
to repeal the said statute, and that it is altogether probable that the statute will be
repealed, no matter who may constitute the government when the next session of the
legislative assembly takes place. The Attorney General suggests, however, the
expediency of allowing the statute to remain in force to afford an opportunity for a
legal question to be submitted to the court, and he concludes by stating that it is
quite impossible for the government to give any assurance that the Act will be repealed
in time to obviate the necessity of the question of di.sallowance being decided by the
Dominion government.
As the Act is in the opinion of the undersigned clearly in excess of provincial
authority and ought not to remain in operation, and as the reply of the government
of British Columbia cannot be regarded as a satisfactory- assurance that the Act will
be repealed, the undersigned considers that, for the reasons stated above and in his
previous report, the said chapter 50 ought to be disallowed, and he recommends accord-
ingly.
The undersigned further recommends that a copy of this report, if approved, be
transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia, for the information of
his government.
Respectfully submitted,
DAVID MILLS.
Minister «/ Justice.
AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA,
Tuesday, the 24th day of April, 1900.
PRESENTS
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with the
legislative assembly of the said province of British Columbia did on the STth day of
February, 1899, pass certain statutes which have been transmitted, numbered chapter
No. .39, intituled ' An Act respecting Liquor Licenses,' chapter No. 44, intituled ' An
Act to grant a subsidy to a railway from Midway to Penticton,' chapter No. 46,
intituled ' An Act to amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act,' and on the 18th day of
January, 1S99, chapter No. 50, intituled ' An Act to amend the Placer Mining Act.'
And whereas the said statutes have be«n laid before His Excellency the Governor
General in Council, together with a report from the Minister of Justice recommending
that the same be disallowed.
CUiyE-SE i.\U JAl'.iyH.SH IMHIGRATION 45
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Now, therefore, Ilis Excellency, by and with the advice of the Queen's Privy
Council for Canada has this day beeji pleased to declare his disallowance of the said
statutes and the same are hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and grovem themselves accord^
ingly.
JOHN J. Mc GEE.
Clerk of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliot Murray Kynnymond, Earl of Minto, Governor Gen-
eral of Canada, do hereby certify that the statutes passed by the leg-islative assembly
of the province of British Columbia and assented to by the Lieutenant Governor of
the said province of British Columbia on 2Tth February, 1899, numbered chapter 39,
intituled ' An Act respecting Liquor Licenses,' chapter No. 44, intituled ' An Act to
grant a subsidy to a railway from ilidway to Penticton,' chapter No. 46, intituled
' An Act to amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act,' and on the 18th January, 1899,
chapter No. 50, intituled ' An Act to amend the Placer Mining Act,' were received by
me on the 27th of April, 1899.
Given under my hand and seal this 24th day of April, 1900.
MESTTO.
The Under Secretary of State to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of British
Columbia.
Department of Secretary of State. Ottawa, 25th April. 1900.
Sir, — I have the honour to acquaint you that on the 24th of April, 1900, His
Excellency the Governor General was pleased, by and with the advice of the Queen's
Privy Council for Canada, to declare his disallowance of chapters thirty-nine, forty-
four and forty-six of the session of the British Columbia legislature of 1899. intituled
resx)eetively : 'An Act respecting Liquor Licenses,' 'An Act to grant a subsidy to a
railway from Midway to Penticton,' and An Act to amend the Coal Mines Regula-
tion Act,' which Acts were assented to by you on the 27th day of February, 1899. I
have further the honour to inform ,vou that His Excellency the Governor General,
by and with the advice of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, has been pleased to
declaim his disallowance of chapter fifty of the same session of your legislature, in-
tituled'An Act to amend the Placer Mining Act,' which Act was assented to by Your
Honour on the 18th January, 1899. The Order in Council declaring the disallowance
of these Acts is herewith enclosed, together with Lord Minto's certificate as to the
date of their receipt by him.
JOSEPH POPE,
Under Secretary of Slate.
P.C. 1703 and 170J,, 1900.
To His Excellency the Right Honourahle Sir Gilbert .John Elliot. Earl of Minto.
and Viscount Melgund of Melgund. County of Forfar, in the Peerage of the
United Kingdom, Baron Minto, County of Roxhurg, in the Peerage of Great
Britain, Baronet of Nova Scotia. Knight Grand Cross of the Most Distin-
guished Order of St. Michael and St. George, etcs, etc., Governor General of
Canada, in Council.
The Petition of the undersigned, being residents of the Province of British
Columbia,
HrMBLY Sheweth;
That various enactments of the Province of British Columbia for the purposes
of limiting or preventing the immigration of the Mongolian races into this pro-
46 AyOLO-JAPASESE COyVEyTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
vinee, and the employment of them upon public and other iworks therein have been
disallowed.
Aiid that whilst your petitioners in no way question the power of disallowance,
they venture to believe that a fuller knowledge of the present conditioiis of Jlongolian
immigration into this province, and its effect upon our labouring clas~, will seriously
modify your views;
Wherefore, be it known that between the 1st day of January, 1900. and the 30tb
day of April, 1900, inclusive, four thousand six hundred and sixty-nine (4.669) Japan-
ese landed in Victoria and Vancouver; and that during the same jx'riod thirteen
hundred and twenty-five (1.325) Chinese landed in Victoria, making a total of
nearly six thousand within the short space of four months ; the result of which is
that this province is flooded with an undesirable class of people, non-assimilative,
and most detrimental to the wage-earning classes of our people, and also a menace
to health;
That your petitioners are not Tinmiiidful of Imperial interests, and express feel-
ings of the greatest loyalty to all Imperial intrests, whilst respectfully calling atten-
tion to this serious inroad upon the welfare of the people of this province ;
Wherefore, your petitioners humbly pray that Your Exee'L-ncy may be pleased
to sanction the passing of an Act inhibiting the imigration of ths above-mentioned
class of people to Canada.
And as in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
H. GIBSON.
A. ROSS.
J. BARBER,
W. FULLERTON,
H. CALLOW.
H. TAYI.OR.
And 2,161 others.
P. C. 358 L.
(Canada— No. 186.)
Mr. Chatnhcrhiin to Lord Minlo:
The Secretary of State presents his compliments to the Officer a<]ministering the
Government of Canada, and has the honour to transmit to him for the information
fif His Ministers, with reference to previous correspondence, the papers described in
the subjoined schedule respecting Japanese emigration to Canada.
Downing Street,
July, 1900.
Date. Description of Document.
1900. Copy of letters from the Foreign Office with enclosures.
June 30.
The Under Secretary of State,
Colonial Office.
Foreign Office, June 30, 1900.
Sir, — I am directed by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to transmit
to you, to be laid before the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the accompanying
copy of a despatch, as marked in the margin, concerning Japanese Emigration to
Canada.
FRANCIS BERTIE.
CHINESE ASn JAPANESE IMUlGRATIOy 47
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
No. 60.
The Marquess of Salisbury, K.G., &c., &c., &c.
ToKio, May 19, 1900.
My Lord, — I have the honour to report that repeated notices have appeared ia
the local press relative to the rapidly increasing and apparently excessive emigration
of Japanese labourers to the Pacific Coast of the United States and Canada; and it
has been stated that the Japanese Consul at Vancouver has reported to his Govern-
ment that from the 1st to the 26th ultimo, 4,500 Japanese emigrants had arrived
there, a large number of whom were unable to find employment and were in aa
indigent condition.
In consequence of these reports the Imperial Japanese Foreign Office have issued
instructions to the local authorities in Japan, translation of which I have the honour
tj enclose, limiting the number of emigration permits which may bo issued in each
Prefecture during any one month.
In this connection I have the honour to inclose copies of an article in the
■ Japan Times ' of this day's date, giving the substance of an interview with Mr.
David Glass, of British Columbia on the subject of Japanese immigration in Canada
and commenting thereon.
I have, &c.,
J. B. WHITEHEAD.
{Tf<inslation) .
The instructions issued hy the Fdreign Office to the Local Governors with
regard to the restriction of Emigration to Canada.
The instructions dated Hay 17, 1900, after referring to previous instructions oa
the subject, to the extraordinary number of Japanese emigrants who have recently
found their way to Canada, and to the renewal of the agitation in consequence
against Japanese labourers, proceed : ' It has now become urgently necessary to re-
duce still further the number limit, and accordingly until instructions on the subject
arc in due course issued these fresh instructions are given and in future you shall
limit the number of emigrants to Canada who pass through the hands of emigration
agents to not more than five a month for each emigration agent in all the localities
throughout the country. And the number of emigrants who do not pass through the
hands of the emigration agents shall as hitherto be fixed at not more than five a
month for each prefecture and no more shall receive travelling permits.
' Permission may be granted to as many as fell short of the limit number in the
four winter months during the remaining months of the next year, a proper propor-
tion for each month, but under such circumstances the number of emigraints dealt
with by emigration agents shall not exceed ten a month.'
P. C. 398 L.
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consi'late.
Vancoua-eh, B.C., August 7, 1900.
To the Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Ont.
^IR, — I have the honour to confirm my telegram despatched you this morning to
t':n effect that I have received a cablegram from my government stating that it has
48 AXGLO-JAPAyESE COWEXTIOX
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
entirely forbidden, for the present, the emigration from Japan to Canada and also to
the United States.
The reason for the steps taken by my government is obvious. While an exceed-
ingly cordial feeling of friendship has existed between our imperial government and
your Dominion government, an anti-Japanese movement has been at work for years
past in the province of British Columbia.
It has been supposed here sometimes that Japan has been trying to throw a part
of her ever increasing population out across the Pacific, in spite of the opposition of
some people here. But this action of my government will prove such a supposition
absolutely baseless.
As to those Japanese immigrants already here I have no doubt but that your gov-
ernment will see that they are treated in every way on the equal footing accorded to
people of any civilized country.
S. SHIMIZU,
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
39T L.
the government of the prohnce of british columbia.
Lt.-Go^'ernor's Office,
VicTORi.\, B.C., 16th of August, 1900.
The Honourable Secretary of State,
Ottawa.
Sir.. — I have the honour to forward, herewith, a certified copy of an approved
minute of the 14th inst., embodying a resolution passed by the Legislative Assembly
of British Columbia, setting forth the opinion of that body as regards the effective
Tnode of dealing with the question of restricting Mongolian immigration in Canada.
HEXRY G. JOLT DE LOTBIXIERE,
Lieut.-Governor.
Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council, approved
by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 14th day of August, 1900.
The Committee of Council submit for the approval of His Honour the Lieutenant
■Governor the undermentioned resolution of the Legislative Assembly, namel.v: —
Resolved, 'Whereas resolutions have been passed by this House from time to
time requesting the Dominion Government to increase the poll tax on Chinese im-
migrants into Canada;
' And whereas the Dominion has passed an Act known as the '"Chinese Immi-
.gration Act, 1900," increasing the poll tax from the sum of $50 to $100;
' Be it resolved, that, in the opinion of this House the said Act is ineffective and
inadequate to prevent Chinese immigration into Canada;
' Be it further resolved that an humble address be presented to His Honour the
Lieutenant Governor requesting him to respectfully urge upon the Dominion govern-
ment that the efFective mode of dealing with the question of restricting Mongolian
immigration into Canada would be either increasing the amount of the per capita tax
to the sum of $500, or by the passing of an Act based on the lines of the Natal Act
known as the Immigration Restriction Act, 1S9T.'
The Committee advise that a copy of this minute, if approved, be forwarded to
the Honourable the Secretar.v of State.
Dato.l this l.-Jth day of August, 1900.
J. D.,
(Name undecipherable)
Clerk Executive Council.
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMilinRlTlON 49
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Telegram.
414 L.
Imperial Japanese Consul to Lord Minto.
Vancouver, B.C., 1st September, 1900.
Your Excellency's attention is respectively called to the Acts respecting, first,
liquor licenses; second, Vancouver Incorporation amendment; third, labour regula-
tion; fourth, immigration, all of which passed legislature of British Columbia and
assent just given by Lieutenant Governor of that province, the two bills last named,
directed mainly against Japanese, while the rest affect interests of Japanese residents
more or less injuriously. In the name of Imperial Japanese government may I re-
spectfully request Your Excellency's best consideration in th« matter. Am writing.
S. SHIMIZIT,
Imperial Japanese Consul.
426 L.
Imperial Japanese Consul, Vancouver, B.C., io Governor General.
Vancouver, B.C., 1st September, 1900.
Your Excellency, — In the name of His Imperial Japanese Majesty's government,
I have the honour of calling your attention to the following bills that were passed by
the legislative assembly of British Columbia, and to which assent was given yesterday
by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of the province, namely: —
(1.) Bill Xo. 42. an Act relating to the employment on works carried on under
franchises granted by private Acts.
The provisions embodied in the section 4 of this Bill will wholly deprive those
Japanese residents in this province, who are unable to read in any language of Europe,
of the opportunity of employment on works specified in the section. It will be readily
seen that tlw regulation is not intended as an educational test, first, because an ex-
ception is made to be exempt from the reading test for certain class, as provided in
the section 3, and secondly, because -the Japanese language is not admitted for the
test, in spite of the fact that the Japanese may be educated to the highest degree in
their own tongue.
Xor is it a test of the vernacular language of this province, because other Euro-
pean languages than the English are admitted for the test. But judging from the
debates on the floor, as reported in the press, this Bill is obviously and solely directed
against Asiatics, including Japanese. Some clippings from the local press containing
reports of the debates on this Bill are herewith inclo^d for your information.
(2.) Bill Xo. 46. An Act to regulate immigration into British Columbia.
It is scarcel.v necessary to point out that the object of this Bill is to prohibit
immigration of Japanese into this province, as Chinese are made to be exempted from
the application of this Act.
My objections as stated in the foregoing paragraph will appl.v to this instance
with even stronger force. Should this Bill come into force, not merely immigration
of labourers, but movement of Japanese merchants and travellers will also be injuri-
ously interfered with.
Your Excellency is no doubt aware that the Imperial government which I have
the honour to represent, entirely forbade emigration of Japanese labourers into Can-
ada for the present. And it will continue to do so as long as it is deemed advisable.
Under the circumstances, I fail to see the reason why the government of this province
should pass such a legislation.
74b— 4
50 AyciLO-jAPAyEsE coyvEyrioy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
Some clippings from the local press containing reports of the debates on this
Bill are also inclosed.
May I trust that this Bill will be disallowed before it shall come into force on the
1st day of January next I
(3.) Bill No. 19, An Act to revise and consolidate the Vancouver Incorporation
Act.
The section 7 of this Bill deprives the Japanese residents in the city of Van-
couver of the franchise of voting in any municipal election.
For your information I may state that there are many Japanese residents in
this city, merchants of good standing, missionaries, myself and others, who would thus
be deprived of the privilege at present enjoyed.
This enactment, therefore, camiot but be considered a.s an unfriendly action. In
addition I beg to remind you that the annual municipal election of the city is to be
held in January.
(4.) Bill No. 5, An Act respecting liquor licenses.
In section 2 of this Bill ' Mongolians ' are excluded from the expressions "house-
holder ' and ' inhabitant.' The consequences of these provisions will be seen inthe
sections 22, 2S and 44 of the Bill. The Hon. the Attorney General of the province,
who introduced the Bill, and by whose motion the word ' Mongolians ' was substituted
for the original words ' Chinese and Japanese,' has seemingly evaded to answer my
inquiry, officially made in writing, as to whether the word in question is meant to in-
clude Japanese. But some of his collegues in the cabinet answered me in the affirma-
tive in his presence. Here I beg to add that, though I was informed by the proper
authority of the provincial government that this Bill, together with the others passed,
received assent of the Lieutenant Governor of the province, it does not appear in the
lists of Acts, to which assent was given, that is jjublished in the Provincial Parliamen-
tary paper. Now, urging the same objections to these Bills as I had the honour of
urging against legislation of similar nature passed at the late sessions, I would most
respectfully request Your Excellency to extend to the jsresent instance the same en-
lightened and vigorous policy, that was pursued by your government, in regard to the
legislation of late years, and to give that legislation such consideration as will lead to
the prompt disallowance of the same.
I avail myself of this opportunity to renew 'to Your E.xcellency the assurance of
my highest consideration.
S. SHIMIZU,
7/ As Imiii'rial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
431 L.
Imperial Japanese Consul to Lord Minto.
His I.Mi'KRtAi, Japanese Majesty'^ Coxsul.^te for Cax.ida,
Van-couver, B.C., 5th September, 1900.
Y<il It E.\( ELi.EXcv, — With reforenco to my representation, dated the 1st instant,
in regard to cortiiin legislation of British Cnluniliia. I have the honour to inform you
that yesterday I have roceiveil an answer from the Attorney General of the province,
regarding certain word of the Liquor License Act, copy of which is herewith inclosed.
I beg also to state that I have found that to that Act, assent was given by the Lieu-
tenant Governor 0:1 10th August last.
S. SIIIMIZr,
Jlis Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
cmxKsi-: .\M) ./.i/m.va;.s7-; iMMi<in.\'rioy 51
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
ViCTORU, B.C., 4th September, 1900.
S. Shimizi", Japanese Consul,
Vancouver.
I niii>t U"^ nidst rospoctfuUy to decline to express an otiiniou regarding the inten-
tion that resulted in introduction of word 'Mongolians' into Liquor License Act,
1900, or a.s to construction to be placed thereon.
J). M. EBERTS,
Attorney General.
P. C. 2187.
Ct^RTiFiED Copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by
His Excellency the Governor General on the 21st September, 1900.
On a memorandum dated September 3, 1900, from the Secretary of State, sub-
mitting that he has had under consideration the many representations made by the
legislature and people of British Columbia on the subject of Chinese and Japanese
immigration into that province to some of which he desires to call particular attention.
The Minister observes that at a recent sitting of the Legislative Assembly of the
province, a resolution was adopted declaring that the Chinese Immigration Act
passed at the last session of the parliament of Canada, increasing the capitation tax
from $50 to $100 is ineffective and inadequate to prevent Chinese immigration into
Canada, and expressing the opinion that the only effective mode of dealing with the
question of restricting Mongolian immigration into Canada would be by either in-
creasing the amount of per capita tax to the sum of $500, or by the passing of an
Act based on the lines of the Xatal Act known as the ' Lnmigration Restriction Act
of 1«9T.'
That in the month of May last (1900) two numerously signed petitions from the
residents of British Columbia to His Excellency the Governor General in Council,
were received representing that between January 1 and April 1 of th present year
(1900) 4,069 Japanese landeil in Victoria and Vancouver, and that during the same
period 1,."525 Chinese landeil in Victoria, making a total of nearly 6,0<)0 within the
<hort space of four niontlis, and alleging tliat the result is 'that the ijrovince is flooded
with an undesirable class of people non-assimilative and most detrimental to thewage-
i-arning classes of the people of the province, and that this extensive immigration of
triciitaLs is also a menace to the health of the community.'
That the ijotitioners assert that they are not unmindful of Imperial interests,
and while expressing feelings of the greatest loyalty to those interests, they respect-
fully call attention to what they term a serious inroad upon the welfare of the people
of the province and they ask that an Act be passed inhibiting the immigration of the
above mentioned classes of people to Canada.
That it has also been alleged in other communications on the subject that there
was probability of a greater disturbance to the economic conditions existing in the
province and of grave injury being caused to the working classes by the large influx
of labourers from China and Japan, as the standards of living of the masses of the
people in those countries differ so widely from the standards prevailing in the pro-
vince, thus enabling them to work for a much less wage.
That it is also urged that it is in the interest of the Empire that the Pacific
Province of the Dominion should be occupied by a large and thoroughly British
population rather than by one in which the number of aliens would form a large
proportion.
The Minister also desires to call attention to the many acts passed by the Legis-
lative Assembly of the province declaring that Chinese or Japanese persons shall not
be allowed to find employment on works, the construction of which has been author-
V4b — 4i
52 AyGLO-JAPANEt<E COyVEXTION
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
izc'd or made possible of accomplishment by certain privileges or franchises granted
by the Legislature, which Acts have been disallowed by reason of the discrimination
including Japanese.
The minister submits that owing to the?e representations made by t' e lesrisla-
ture and the people of British Columbia, the Right Honourable the PreTuior during
the last session of Parliament of Canada, when introducing the Bill authorizing
the increase in the capitation tax on Chinese coming into the Dominion from $50
to $100, announced that the government had come to the conclusion that it would
be wise at the present time to follow the course adopted by the government of Canada
in the year 1884, and have the complaints and statements referred to, investigated,
the inquiry to include the question as to whether the Japanese should be treated as
the Chinese were, and whether or not they present the same objectionable character-
istics as were alleged against the Chinese, and that a royal commission would be
appointed to investigate and examine into the whole question, making;- a full report
80 that the views of the people of British Columbia might be placed before the Im-
perial authorities.
The Minister therefore recommends that a thorough and full investigation be
made, under a royal commission, into the foregoing statements and representations,
and that Roger C. Clute, of Toronto, Ralph Smith, of Vancouver, and Daniel J.
Munn, of New Westminster, be appointed commissioners for the purpose of such in-
vestigation, and that pursuant to the provisions of C'hapter 114, Revised Statutes of
Canada, entitled ' An Act respecting inquiries concerning public matters,' they as
Buch commissioners be given the full power of summoning witnesses and requiring
them to give evidence on oath or on solemn affirmation, and to prodiice such docu-
ments and papers as they may deem requisite.
The Minister further recommends that reasonable advance be made to the com-
missioners to cover living and travelling expenses, that F. J. Dean, of Kamloops, be
appointed secretary to the Commission, and that for the purpose of tukin'.; such i vi-
dtnee they be authorized to employ a stenographer to take down the evidence, whose
remuneration shall be fixed by the commissioners.
The committee submit the foregoing for Your Excellency's approval.
JOHN J. McCtEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
496 L.
The Right Hon. Jos. Chamberlain to His Excellency the Governor General.
Downing Street, October 5, 1900.
My Lord, — With reference to my despatch, No. 186 of 5th July, and to previous
correspondence as to the position of Japane.se subjects in British Columbia, I have the
honour to transmit you, for conmiunication to your ministers, copies of a despatch
from Her Majesty's Charge d'Affaires at Tokio and of a note from the Japanese Min-
ister at this court on the subject.
2. Your ministers will observe that the Japanese minister protests against certain
Acts discriminating unfavourably against .Tnpaneso subjects which have recently beou
passed by the legislature of British Cohiinbia, anil I have no doubt that this protest
will receive the attentive consideration of your government.
3. The action of the .Tapanese government in prohibiting the emigration of
Japanese subjects to British Columbia, in view of the state of local feeling there,
ai>pears to Her Majesty's government to show their desire to deal with this question
in a friendly spirit, and to obviate as far as possil)le the need for such.
4. I shall be glad to be furnislie-l with copie-s of the Acts referred to in the
Japanese minister's note, and of any similar provincial legislation passed since 1S98,
and any observations which your ministors may wish to offer on them.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
CHIXESE A\D JAPASEliE IMMIGRATWS 53
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Mr. J. B. Whiteheatk to the M,ost Hon. the Marquess of Saliehury.
ToKio, August 12, 1900.
My Lord, — Having noticed in the local newspapers a statement to the effect that
in view of a racial prejudice against the entry of Japanese labourers into the United
States and British Columbia, the Japanese Foreign OiEee had on the 2nd instant or-
dered the Governors of the provinces to prohibit emigration to those two countries,
I took an opportunity of asking Viscount Aoki whether this were the case.
His Excellency confirmed the report and said that he had issued this prohibition
because, although the action of the Dominion government had been most friendly in
the matter, he had become convinced that popular feeling in British Columbia was so
strongly against Japanese emigration that it would be a wise precaution, in order to
avoid disagreeable incidents, to suspend emigration to that colony for a time. '
J. B. WHITEHEAD.
The Japanese Ambassador to the Most Hon. the Marquess of Salisbury.
.J.4P.4XESE Leg.\tion, September 18, 1900.
My Lord 'M.\RguEss, — The Japanese Consul at Vancouver has reported to my
government that the legislative assembly of British Columbia had recently passed
four Bills which provide discriminating treatment against Japanese subjects. On.
the 31st of August last the Bills in question have received the approval of the Lieu-
tenant Governor of British Columbia, and they are now waiting the assent of the
Governor General of Canada.
The Bills referred to are, first, the Liquor License Act, by which the Japanese
undergo the discriminating treatment under the name of Mongolians, second, the
Immigration Ilegulation Act, and the Labour Regulation Acts, in both of which the
knowledge of the European language is made a necessary qualification of the immi-
grants and of t'Jie labourers; and third, the Amended Vancouver Incorporation Act,
which exclude Japanese from enjoyment of various franchises.
Although the details of the Bills are not before me, the Consul's reports are
enough to show that they were all formulated with the object of depriving Japanese
emigrants from every facility and enjoyment of equal treatment. The Japanese
Consul at Vancouver from the time when the Bills were first presented in the legisla-
tive assembly, has not failed to lodge the protest against the legislation so unfair
towards the Japanese. His efforts, however, have not been successful and the Bills
are now about to become laws.
The Imperial government being deeply sensible of the solicitous attention paid
by Her Majesty's government, confidently believe that the legislation so unfriendly
to Japan would not be sanctioned by the Governor General of Canada. And yet
this renewed action on the part of British Columbia compels my government to in-
struct me to approach Your Lordship in a friendly spirit, with the view of asking
Her Majesty's government to extend their enlightened policy, constantly shown by
them towards Japan, to the present instance by inducing the Governor General of
Canada to refrain from giving his assent to the Bills in question. Arguments against
these iinfair legislations have repeatedly been communicated to Your Lordship by
my predecessor Mr. Kato on similar occasions. Therefore I do not here reiterate the
reasons which may be said against those Bills, the Bills that only tend, it is feared
to impair the friendly relations now happily existing between Great Britain and
Japan.
I have now the honour to ask Your Lordship's good offices so that Her Majesty's
government will exercise their influence in order that the aforesaid Bills may not be
allowed to take effect of laws.
HAYASHI.
54 AyCLO-JAPAyE.^E CONVEIfTION
8-9 EDWARD VII.. A. 1309
P. C. 397 L.
ExTR.\CT from a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by the
Governor General on the 9th October, 190(>.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration a despatch,
hereto attached, dated 16th August, 1900, from the Lieutenant Governor of British
Columbia, forwarding a copy of a minute of His Executive Council approved on the
14th J ugust, 1900, submitting a resolution of the Legislative Assembly of British
Columbia, upon the subject of Chinese immigration into Canada.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce to whom the matter was referred submits
that the oft-repeated demands of the British Columbia Legislature for more restric-
tive measures had due consideration during the recent session of parliament when a
new Chinese Immigration Bill was introduced and was fully discussed. The prevail-
ing opinion of the majority of the members of the House of Commons and of the
Senate was not in favour of approving of the restrictions demanded b.v the British
Columbia Legislature, but the matter having had full discussion, it was deemed suffi-
cient for the time being at least, to increase the poll-tax on Chinese from $5<1 to $100,
such increase to take effect from the 1st January, 1901 ; and inasniuch as it was
stated on the floor of the House that a Commission would be appointed to inquire
into the matter, he the Minister does not deem it expedient to recommend any depar-
ture from the law as it now exists and is provided for from the 1st of January. 1901,
until it is shown, after investigation, by report of such Commission that it is in the
interests of the Dominion at large that further restrictions should be imposed.
The Committee on the recommendation of the Minister of Trade and Commerce,
advise that, a certified copy of this minute be forwarded to tlie Lieutenant Governor
of British Columbia, for the information of nis government.
All which is respectfully submitted for Your Excellency's approval.
P. C. 131 L.
Certified copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by His
Excellency the Governor General on the 9th October, 1900.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration copies of tlie
following (Icsp itclies from His Imperial ilajesty's Japanese consul, viz.: —
(1) Despatch, dated the 15th February, 1900, referring to an Act passed by the
British Columbia Legislature No. ,')9, intituled ' An .\ct to amend the Tramway
Incorporations Act.'
(2) Despatch, dated 1st September. 190(1. calling attention to four Act.s : (1)
Liquor License. (2) Vancouver Incorporation Amendment. (3) Labour Regulations,
and (4) Immigration.
(3) Despatch, dated 1st September. 1900. railing atfentiuu to Acts Xos. 5 19
42. and 40.
(4) Despatch, dateil .^tli September, 1900, calling attention to his despatch of
1st September, 1900, which referred to Acts Nos. 5, 19, 42. and 4C, and enclosing
copy of a communication, dated 4th September, 1900. received by him from the
Attorney General of British Columbia.
The Committee on the recommendation of the ^lini.ster of Justice to whom the
despatches in question were referivd advise that copie.-; of t;lie same, which are hereto
attachefl, be transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia for the
report of liis government upon tlie objections urged by the Japanese oonsid to the
legislation in question.
All of whicli is respectfully .submitted for Your Excellency's approval.
CHIXFSF AMI r.iPAyEsf: IMMlGRATIOy 55
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
P. C. 2457.
THE GOVERXMEXT OF THE PROVIXCE OF BRITISH COLUitBIA,
Premier's Office,
ViCTORU, (October, 1900.)
Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid L.\rRiER,
Prime Minister,
Ottawa, Canada.
Di;.iR Sir Wilfrid, — There are several matters aifeeting the mutual interests of
the province of British Columbia and the Dominion of Canada concerning which the
government is anxious that I should make representations to you and I am very
desirous on my own account as well that you should have an opportunity of carefully
coiisidoriiig the views of my ooUcagues and myself concerning them, which, I may
say, are shared by a large majority of the people of British Columbia. The matters
in question have for some time past been under discussion in the legislature, on the
public platform and in the press, and I have no doubt that on account of the increas-
ing interest felt in the east in the affairs of this western country they have already
been brought under your notice. I propose going to Ottawa at an early date hoping
to have the pleasure of a personal interview, and an intimation from you as to a
favourable time to see you would be appreciated.
In the first place, you will have observed by the various expressions of opinion,
and, particularly from the attitude of the legi.^lative assembly, that there is a strong
and growing feeling regarding the immigration of Mongolians. In the opinion of the
government the time has fully arrived when some decisive steps should be taken by
the authoritie.-. having complete and effective jurisdiction to permanently end the
state of affairs complained of.
The question is not without its difficulties, I admit; but the continued unres-
tricted immigration of Chinese and Japanese cannot but result in the agitation now
on foot being persisted in and growing into undesirable prominence. From the repre-
sentations made by the Japanese Consul to this government it would appear that His
Majesty's Imperial government has decided to prohibit the emigration of Japanese or
rather to greatly restrict it. It depends, of course, on how far the proposed restric-
tion goes as to whether it will be satisfactory or not. It may appear to you unreason-
able that the people of British Columbia should desire to limit the privileges of a
nation which has friendly treaty relations with Great Britain; but there are local con-
siderations as well as imperial interests which must be taken into account. Owing
to the geographical relation of British Columbia to the continent of Asia this pro-
vince is the landing place for Oriental immigration to the Pacific coast and conse-
quently the competition to which the labouring classes here are exposed is keenly felt
in a way that cannot be appreciated in other parts of Canada. This applies to
Japanese and Chinese alike.
I am not at all clear as to whether the powers of the province can constitutionally
be applied to effect a remedy, but during the recent session of the legislature several
earnest efforts were made to encompass the endrs in view — with what success will
appear when the legislation comes before your government for review. What I feel
particularly is this, that an unquestionable remedy lies with the Dominion author-
ities, and having promised the House that we would use our utmost influence with
your government, and through the Dominion government with the Imperial author-
ities, to bring about a settlement. I cannot too strongly urge upon your attention the
great desirability of dealing effectively with our representations. The theory upon
which the rights of other nations are based ig undoubtedly a strong argument against
enacting the restrictive measures which we are so desirous of seeing enforced; but it
is a coudition.nrf, a theory, with which we have to contend. Other things being equal
56 AyGLO-jAPAyESE coyrEXTioy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
■w« could not complain. If the people against whom we desire a measure of protec-
tion were in their standard of living on a par with our own the comx>etition of Jap-
anese and Chinese would be a legitimate one, but I need not point out to you what
has been contended so often and with so much force against an indiscriminate and
unrestricted iuiniigration of Mongolians, that, without lowering the general standard
of living necessary to meet the decrease in wages, it is not possible for white labour
to exist in the face of a system that has grown up under conditions entirely foreign to
Anglo-Saxon communities, wholly inapplicable in this country and out of harmony
■with our institutions. I am not prepared to say that there are not at the present
time and that probably for a little time to come there will not be some avocations in
which the Chinese and Japanese may be employed with actual benefit to the whole
community. I believe there are. These, however, are limited, and even respecting
ttese it is desireable to change the conditions as soon as possible. The introduction of
machinery will in time in all probability afPord very largely a substitute for such
Ipbour, and, in any event, if the employment of Mongolians in a limited way may be
justified it certainly is very undesirable that any increase in the demand for their
services should take place or that their employment should not be reduced to an ab-
solute minimum.
A good deal has been said about public sentiment being educated to discourage
the employment of Mongolian labour wherever possible, and while that mny be com-
mendable in itself it will fail in practice to meet the case; because in large indus-
tries, more particularly, the temptation to obtain the cheapest form of labour and to
utilize it whenever and wherever available will undoubtedly exist.
In my opinion, the only satisfactory way to deal with the whole subject is by
tihe increase of the per capita tax in such a measure as to surely limit the number
of immigration and by the enactment of legislation similar to the Natal Act to regu-
late their employment while in the country. It is true that the Dominion govern-
ment has increased the tax from $50 to $100 per head, but as you will have already
ascertained the concensus of opinion, so far as thi.s province is concenied. is that it
fails to meet the requirements. Sentiment throughout British Colmnbia is abso-
lutely opposed to any temporizing with the question. The opposition of the Imperial
authorities must not be allowed to stand in the way of the interests of this, an integ-
ral and most loyal part of the Empire, and if sufficient remedies have been permitted
to be exercised in the other colonies they cannot consistently be refused to Canada,
our case being all the stronger from the fact that by our direct geographical rela-
tion as a highw ay oftraffic to the Orient we are particularly exposed to the evils of
such immigration.
We look to the Dominion to aSord us relief, and while I am absolutely opposed
to an unconstitutional <>xercise of remedies by the province, by the very nature of
things, if they are denied to us by the proper authorities, we shall have a continuance
of undesirable agitation and hasty and ill-advised legislation. It will, furthermore,
create an irritation prejudicial to the harmony which hitherto has aUvay- charac-
terized our relations with the Dominion, and which is so necessary in giving full
effect to the objects of Confederation.
I am sending as an appendix to this letter copies of the resolutions which havp
been passed during the recent session of the legislature, together with copies of the
Acts relating to immigration and the ivgiilation of lnbo\ir. I also append a list of
the re.solutions and references which np;icar in our journals and sessional papers
since Confederation, from which you will see that it has always been a live question
in the minds of the people, and that as time has gone on the expressions of public
sentiment have become more pronounced and frequent. This government desires to
see the question finally and satisfactorily disposed of, and I can see no reason why
it should not be taken hold of now as well as at some future time.
CHiyESE AKD JAPANEl^H I M \lli:R\Ttoy 57
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
If tlio frdvoriinifiit nl Jiipan iiiteiids to adhere to the policy it has announced,
it will possibly dispose of the matter as far as Japanese are concerned, but we want
some di'finite assurance on that point, I am aware that the difficulties with respect
to the Japanese are greater than with respect to the Chinese oii accoiint of the
difference in the status of the two nations; but the conditions of competition being
identical the problem, as far as we are concerned, is the same in both eases.
While on this subject I wish to call your attention to the frauds that have been
perpetrated in connection with the naturalization of Japanese. This would seem to
suggest some neces.sary amendments to the Naturalization Act in order to prevent
the recurrence of such abuses in the future. The evasions of the Act which are
taking place are of tlie most .scandalous nature, and I have no doubt that after the
subject has been thoroughly investigated, you will have further representations from
the honourable the Attorney General.
In this connection als o Idesire on behalf of the government to bring again to the
attention of your government the apportionment of the revenues arising out of the
operation of the Chinese Immigration Act. While only one-quarter of the revenue
so derived is returned to the Provincial Treasury practically this province has to
suffer the whole of the evils arising from such immigration. Wliat we beg to pro-
pose and believe to be our right is that the moneys remaining over after the expenses
of administering the Act are met should be paid to this government. The right of
the province to the present apportionment is, I understand, based upon the material
effects of Chinese immigration in the province and is regarded as a compen-ation
for resultant local evils. If the principle of any apportionment at all is a right and
just one then the claims of the province to the whole of the revenue is equally obvious.
I think that is so clear as not to admit of argument. The numbers of Chinese who
find their way to Eastern Canada are small and the effect on the labour market in
consideration of the largeness of the total population is in the aggregate so insignifi-
cant as not to be appreciable. On the other hand our population is so comparatively
limited that any influx of Chinese is felt in a correspondingly increased ratio.
JAMES DUXSMriR.
Premier.
SxRATFonn, (~)etnbe" 17. 1900.
Appendix to letter to Sir Wilfrid Laurier from Hon. James Dunsniuir, Premier of
British Columbia, re Chinese and Japanese Immigration.
A. Eeferences in the Sessional Papers re Chinese and Japanese immigration,
&c., from ISSO up to the present time.
B. References in the journals of the Legislative Assembly in British Columbia
to Chinese and Japanese question from 1872 up to the present time.
C. Session of 1900:—
1. Extract from Sp?ech from the Throne.
2. Eesolution moved by Messrs. Tatlow and Garden.
;^. Resolution by Messrs. Helmcken and Smith and amendment thereto by
Messrs Mclnnes and Smith Curtis.
4. Question by Mr. Kidd re Japanese fishermen.
5. Question by Mr. Tatlow re Japanese immigration.
6. Telegram from Japanese Consul re Japanese immigration.
7. Vote on Mr. Helmcken's resolution re sub-letting contracts, and amend-
ments by Messrs. Mclnnes and McPhillips.
8. Vote on Mr. Tatlow's resolution, and amendment thereto.
9. Resolution by Messrs. Hayward and Helmcken re naturalization of
Chinese and Japanese.
10. Eesolution by Messrs. Garden and Tatlow re Natal Act.
58 Ayaw-jAPAyESE coyvEXTiox
8-9 EDWARD VII.. A. 1909
11. Vote on Mr. Mclnnes' Bill relating to labour.
12. Extract from Lieut6nant-Governor's Speech, close of Session.
13. Copy of Bill by Mr. Mclunes relating to Labour, withdrawn.
14. Copy of Bill by Mr. McInncs relating to Labour, given six months' hoist.
15. Copy of Act passed to regulate immigration into British Columbia.
16. Copy of an Act passed to regulate labour on works carried under fran-
chise granted under private Acts.
A. — Skssionai, Papkhs.
1880. — Petition from the Anti-Chinese Association, Victoria, signed by Noah
Shakespeare, president, asking for protection from the provincial government against
the Chinese, and calling the attention of the Dominion government to the great
influx of Chinese owing to their employment on the Canadian Pacific Railway, and
praying that the.v should not be employed \\\>(in public works of any kind within the
province. Page 406.
1883. — ^Provincial Secretary's report to the Executive on the subject of Chinese
immigration, quoting the resolution of 1878 passed by the Legislative Assembly.
Page 345.
1884. — Return of papers relating to the Chinese question printed for the infor-
mation of the Select Committee on Chinese Immigration, containing a review of the
resolutions passed by the Legislature and the representations made by the govern-
ment to the Dominion authorities up to that time. Page 229.
l'^S5. — Report of the Hon. Wm. Smythe's visit to Ottawa, one of the objects of
which was the recognition of the right of the province to legislate against the Chin-
ese or secure the substitution of eft'eetive legislaliin by the Dominion. Piig' 1.
1886. — ^Destitute conditions of Chinese in which it is pointed out that large
numbers of Chinese have been thrown out of employment by the completion of the
Canadian Pacific Railway and are in a starving condition, the province having pro-
tested against their immigration and employment looks to the Dominion to provide
fni them. Page 347.
Acts to prevent the Immigration of Chinese passed in 1884 and 1885, return of
papers in connection with the same and report of the Minister of Justice on the
disallowance of such Acts. Page 349.
Ciiincsp Regulation Act, 1884, return of papers in connection with the collcetion
of revenues under the same and enforcement of the Act. Page 355.
1890. — Petition against employment of Chinese on public works of the pro-
vince, against employment of Chinese on contracts for public works, or where a grant
of money or land is given in aid of any works, and asking the government to use
Iheir infiuence with the Dominion to have a similar clause inserted in all contracts
made by them in this province. Page 391.
Petition against the employment of Chinese in the coal mines as a measure in
the interests of safety and pointing out the immunity from accidents in the coal
mines during the period that no Chinese were employed. Page 393.
J892. — Petitions to exclude Japanese and Chinese being employed in coal mines;
one from Nanaimo, Wellington and Comox signed by about 3,000 jiersons, and an-
other from Vancouver signed by 700 members of the local trade unions. Pages 465
and 475.
Chinese Inunigration Act, reiwrt of tlie Executive Council approved March 3,
1891. praying the Dominion Government to increase the restrictive character of the
('hinese Immigration Act of Canada. Page 627.
1894. — Copy of report of the Executive Council approved March 29, 1893, con-
veying cop.v of resolution passed by the I^egislative Assembly jiraying that the Dom-
inion (iovernment mli;bt incre.ise the per cuiiilo tax on I'hiucsr iinnilgralion to
CHlXESh- AXn JAPANESE IMillGRATIOX 56
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
$100, and increase the amount of the revenues returnable to the province; and reply
of the Dominion Clovernment stating the undcsirability oi increasing the tax owing
to traJe relations with China. Page lOO'!.
1S97. — Ilci>ort from iliuister of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa, respecting the
desirability of increasing capitation tax on Chinese and submitting that British
Columbia is entitled to three-fourths of such revenue, in reply to a resolution of the
Legislative Assembly respecting the same. The Minute states that similar repre-
sentations have been received from British Columbia, and declines to consider the
request. Page 949.
Naturalization of Chinese and Japanese, papers relating to the proposal embodied
in a resolution of the Legislative Assembly asking that a residence of ten years be
required for naturalization and the reply of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to
the effect that the suggestion is not practicable considering the relations and treaties
existing between the British government and those of China and Japan. Page 1,277.
189S — Chinese and Japanese labour in metalliferous mines, return to an order of
the House for copies of all correspondence relative to such employment. Page Y69.
1S99 — Chinese and Japanese immigration, papers respecting the number of
Chinese and Japanese landed in the province during the years 1897-98. Page 1.383.
Chinese per capita tax. pajjers respecting the proposed increase of the per capita
tax on Chinese immigrants; report of the Privy Council approved May 15,, 1899, with
reference to a resolution passed by the Legislative Assembly requesting the per capita
tax to be increased to $.500 being adverse to any interference, with the, Chinese Immi-
gration Ac-t as it stands. Page 1385.
B. — JOIRXALS.
February 26, 1872. — Motion to tax Chinamen $50 per head per annum lost, yeas
7, nays 15. Page 15.
February 28. — Motion to prohibit Chinese labour on provincial and federal works
lost, yeas 5, nays 17. Page 16.
January 12. 187.3-74. — Motion to impose per capita tax on Chinese residents nega-
tived. Page 18.
May 9, 1876. — Committee of the Whole for the purpose of considering expediency
cf taking steps towards preventing immigration of Mongolian population, report
adopted by House. Page 46.
July 31, 1878. — Resolution passed by Legislative Assembly against employment
of Chinese on public works and favouring insertion of clause in all contracts to that
efiect. Page 82.
February 19, 1879. — Select Committee appointed to reix)rt on the best means of
dealing with the Chinese population and preventing further immigration. ' Page 20.
March 28. — Report of Select Committee recommending address to Dominion gov-
ernment asking that measures be adopted to effectually prevent further immigration
of Chinese. Page 47.
April 7. — Draft of address to Dominion government by Select Committee signed
by Geo. A. Walkem, Chairman, (now Mr. Justice Walkem") in which representations
to the Dominion government are very strong. Page 55.
April 19, 1880. — Petition from Anti-Chinese Association. Page 17.
April 21. — Resolution passed urging Dominion government to pass an Act similar
in principle to the Queensland Act. Page 20.
April 22n(l. — Resolution pas.sed requesting the Dominic>n government to empower
the province of British Columbia to pas^ an Act intituled ' The Chinese Tax Act,'
copy of which is included in resolution. Page 21.
60 AXGLO-jAPAyEUE coyTEyTioy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
Feb. 28, 1882. — Eesolution passed requesting the Dominion government to
induce contractors on the Canadian Pacific l^ailway to employ white labour only.
Page 10.
Eeport of the Executive Council approved March 9, uring on the Dominion gov-
ernment the desirability of giving efFect to the foregoing resolution. Page 11.
Keply from the Dominion government and further representations from the
Executive Council of the province. (See pages 2-32, 233, Sessional Papers, 1884.)
January 26, 1883.— Order in council re influx of Chinese. (See Sessional Papers,
1884, p. 5.) '
February 18, 1884. — Eoyal Assent to Act Regulating Chinese Immigration.
Page 77.
December 7, 1883. — Committee of the Whole to consider best means to prevent
Chinese immigration; reported that Select Committee be appointed to draft an Act
to restrict the immigration of Chinese. Report adopted. Page 12.
January, 21. — Reported, Acts to regulate the Chinese population and to prevent
their immigration; with address to the Governor General on the subject; report
adopted. Pages 37 and 38.
Question by Mr. Duck as to what had been done by the gtivermnent re carrying
out the view of the House on Chinese immigration, with reply of government. Page
18.
February 25, 1885. — Resolution regarding disallowance of Act regulating and
preventing immigration of Chinese and making further representations to the
Dominion government in favour of restrictive legislation. Page 46.
March 9. — Royal Assent to another Bill preventing Chinese immigration. Page
72.
February 9. — Resolution re disallowance of an Act to prevent immigration of
Chinese and representations to the House of Commons on the Chinese question pray-
ing for enactment of laws to prohibit further immigration. Page 30.
February 23. — Report of Select Committee on Chinese question. Page 43.
February 17, 1886. — Amendment to the Chinese Regidation Act, 1884; Bill intro-
duced. Page 26.
February 25. — Bill withdrawn, being out of order. Page 36.
March 11. — Select Committee appointed to prepare a clause to be inserted in all
private Bills regulating employment of Chinese in collection therewith. Page 47.
March 17. — Report of Select Committee receiveil. Page 52.
February 26. — Motion to insert clause in all private Bills withdrawn. Page 37.
March 1. — Motion negatived to reduce ta.\ for mining licenses and also to pre-
vent Chinese from cutting hemlock timber on Crown lands. Page 38.
February 1. — Order for return of licenses granted under Chinese Regtilation Act,
1884, number of arrests and convictions, &c. Page 11.
February 1. — Resolution requesting papers 'to be brought down referring to an
Act to Prevent Immigration of Chinese, 1884 and 1885. Page 11.
Febrtiary 5. — Return re Chinese destitution. Page 13. (See Sessional Papers.)
February 8. — Return of papers ordered by the House re Acts to prevent immigra-
tion of Chinese, 1884 and 1885. Page 15. See Sessional Papers, 1886.)
February 8. — Papers referring to Cliinese Regulation Act, 1884. Page 15. (See
Sessional Pajx-rs, INSG.)
February 19. — Return of reveniie under Chinese Regulation Act. Page 30.
March 22, 1887, ct seq. — Divisions on motion to add Chinese clause to certain
Bills, negatived. Pages 60, 63, 64, 82 and 86.
ifarch 18, 1890. — Petition re Chinese labour on i)ub]ic contracts. Page 67.
March 19. — Petition from, miners of Nanaimo, Wellington and Comox against
Chinese working underground in collieries. Both jetitions urdored printed. Pago 69.
February 5, ]s91, et seq. — Motions to insert .sections providing against employ-
CHINESE AND JAPANESE lUMIORATION 61
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
ment of Chinese on work undertaken in pursuance of private Bills negatived. Pages
23 to 26, 64, 69 to 71. 88 to 90, 138.
February 19. — Resolution favouring reference of the powers of the House to
pass Acts containing clauses prohibiting the employment of Chinese to the Supreme
Court of the province, and long amendment thereto. Both motion and amendment
■were withdrawn. Pages 40-41.
January 22. — Resolution in favour of Chinese clause in all private Bills; debate
adjourned. Page 7.
February 24. — Resolution in favour of increasing the per capita tax from $50
to $2(M) and amendment. Motion as amended carried. Page. 50.
February 25. — Amendment not to include Japanese under same restriction as
Chinese carried, 16 to 14. Page 53.
February 27. — Resolution re Chinese immigration asking that it should be made
more restrictive passed, 18 to 10. Page 56.
iiarch 28, 1892, et seq. — Insertion of Chinese restriction clause in private Bills
negatived. Pages 77, 95, 138 and 146.
April 1. — Resolution re increased restriction Chinese immigration, previous
question moved and carried, 14 to 13. Pages 85 and 86.
February 17. — Petition from 2.689 miners of Xanaimo. Wellington and Comox
against Chinese and Japanese working underground ordered printed. Pages 13
and 21.
February 19. — Petition from Alberni district re Chinese and Japanese. Page 24
February 22. — Petition re Chinese and Japanese. Page 24.
March 3. — Petition from Vancouver Trades and Labour Council re Chinese
and Japanese working underground. Page 37.
March 9. — Resolution passed for return of correspondence, &c.. rr resolution
of last session asking that the Chinese Immigration Act of Canada be made more
restrictive in its provisions. Page 46.
^Niarch 16. — Presentation of papers ordered by the House respecting the foregoing
resolution Page 62.
February 17, 1893. — Resolution re Chinese Immigration Act requesting the
Dominion government to make it more restrictive in certain ways carried 15 to 14.
Pages 26 to 27.
^farch 20. — Resolution adopted requesting the Dominion government to increase
the per capita tax to $100 and to give this province 75 per cent of the said fcix.
Pages 77-91.
February 23.— Mr. Keith's Bill to amend the Coal ^Vlines Regulation Act. 1833,
and the Coal ifines Amendment Act. 1S90. was negatived by 16 to 12. Page 35.
January 29, 1894. — Resolution re amendment of the Municipal Act to enable cor-
porations to tax persons or companies employing Chinamen $50 per year for each
Chinamen, ruled out of order. Page 15 .
January 25. — Resolution adopted praying the Dominion government to increase
the per capita tax to $100 and expressing the opinion that three-fourths of all moneys
received should be paid to the province. Page 10.
February 8. — Resolution passed praying for copies of all correspondence re Re-
solution of 1893 praying the Dominion government to increase the per capita tax to
$100. &c.. Page 31.
February 15. — Copies of above referred to papers presented to the House. Page
41.
December 22, (1894') 1895. — ^Resolution praying that the per capita tax be in-
creased to $100 and that three-fourtlis of all moneys received in British Columbia
should be paid to the province. Page 55.
.January 24. — Resolution adoptefl in favour of the government taking steps against
Chinese holding liquor licenses. Page 83.
62 , AyaLo-jAi'AyEnE coyvEyrwy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
February 8. — Section iutroduced to amend ' An Act to Further Amend Act 44
Victoria, Chapter 19 ' against employment of Chinese or Japanese, negatived, 17 to
10. Page 114.
February 13, 1896. — Question as to steps to test the constitutionality of the sec-
tion of the Coal Mines Regulation Act prohibiting the employment of Chinese under-
ground. Page 37.
February 15, 1897. — Resolution adopted urging the desirability of increasing the
per capita tax to $100 and that three-fourths of all moneys received should be paid to
British Columbia. Pages 12 and 34.
April 20. — Return of pages re increase of capitation grant. Page 120.
April 26. — Return asked for as to number of Chinamen who are tenants of the
Crown. Page 131.
April 26. — Inquiry as to steps taken to prevent employment of Chinese in the
mines of the Union Colliery Company. Page 131.
April 30. — Resolution urging on Dominion government the necessity of Chinese
and Japanese residing ten years before becoming naturalized. Page 141.
March 18. — Government asked as to what action it would take with reference to
a Bill from the recent decision of the Supreme Court re Coal Mines Regulation Act.
Pago 64.
April 28. — Resolution requesting the Dominion government re treaty with Japan
to make such stipulations as will prevent unrestricted immigration of Japanese in
Canada. Page 136.
April 6, 1898. — Coal Mines Regulation Act read a second time, 17 to 19. Page
107.
February 28. — Return of correspondence re employment of Chinese or Japanese
in metalliferous mines in the province. Page 32.
February 7, 1899. — Acts to amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act, second read-
ing page 43. Third reading page 46.
February 2. — Resolution re employment of Chinese and Japanese making repre-
sentations to the Dominion government, withdrawn. Page 38.
January 18. — Return of copies of all corre.spondence between the Dominion and
Provincial governments with reference to the legislation against Japanese. Page 20.
February 24. — Return showing number of Chinese and Japanese that have become
naturalized British subjects in British Columbia. Page 95.
Jan. 11. — Question as to communications received by the Provincial government
from the Domiiiinu govornmont relative to a protest by the Emperor of Japan against
the Labour Regulations Act, ISOS. Page 11.
Jan. 11. — Resolution adopted to memorialize the Dominion government to increase
the per capita tax on Chinese and to urge the claims of the province to three-fourths
of the revenue. Page 10.
Jan. 16. — Resolution requesting the Dominion government to furnish information
regarding the number of Chinese and Japanese landed during 1897-1808. Pago 16.
Feb. 25. — T>ong resolution adopted requesting the Dominion government to in-
crease the per capita tax on Chinese to $500. Page 99.
January 2i5. — Order of the House for return showing number of Cliiuosc and
Japanese naturalized since 1890. Page 2-7.
Februar.v 20. — Return ordered showing nmnber of Chinese and Japai ese
naturalized in Briti-h CoJuiTibia to the present time. Page 65.
February 14. — Debate on resolution asking for copies of reply sent by the pro-
vince to the Dominion government relative to the suggestion that the Labo\ir Regula-
tion Act, 1898, be repealed, adjournei). Page 53.
February 16. — Resolution carried. Pago 58.
February 16. — Resolution re enforcing the sanitary regulations re Chinese.
Page 57.
CHINESE A\D JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 63
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
January 8, 1900. — Return ordered of all correspondence, &c., between the Domin-
ion and Provincial govern men t>: relative to the <lisallo\vanee of the Labour Regulation
Act, 1898.
.Tanuarv IS. — Return of eiirre^po7i<lenee between Dominion and Provincial
Oovernments relative to the disallowance of the Labour Refinlation Act, 139>>.
February 1. — x^nuMidment to an Act to Amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act.
Debate on same defeated by 18 to 17.
February 2. — Bill introduced to rejjulate the length of liair that may be worn by
employees in metalliferous and other mines.
February 9. — Resolution against admission of Mongolians to the rights of citizen-
ship, an<l memorlizing the Dominion government to change the naturalization laws
to tliat cffci-t. After several amendments motion carried 28 to 2.
February 12. — Adjournc-d debate on the Coal Mines Regulation Act.
The Hon. .1. Dlnsmuir^
Premier, British Columbia,
Victoria, B.C.
My dear Mr. Dlnsjiuir, — I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your very im-
portant letter. The character of the questions submitted for the consideration of
the Dominion Government is such, that it would be far preferable to have them dis-
cussed verball.v, rather than in writing.
I am most happy indeed to have the expression of your intention to visit Ottawa
at an early day. I would especially ask j'ou to come as soon as possible after the
elections are over. It would take fully a week, if not more, to go over the ground
covered by your letter. In order to have some satisfactory results, if you would
kindl.v let me know the date that I should expect you, I would make my arrangements
accordingly, as I propose to take a short trip either in Xovember or December.
Until I have had the pleasure of a jx-rsonal interview with you, I will refrain
from any observation with reference to the subjects mentioned in your letter. In
the meantime, let me assure you that I will endeavour to meet your wishes in the
most friendly spirit, though I can see some very serious difficulty in successfully hand-
ling some of the subjects to which you refer.
WILFRID LAURIER.
5.36 L.
From thf Japanese Consulnfr for Canada at British Columhia, to Lord Minto.
Vaxcouver, B.C., 3rd January, 1901.
Yoiii E.NCELIENCV, — With reference to my rrproseutations dat<-i the l.st Septem-
ber last, in regard to certain legislation of British Columbia, I hav« the honour t
inform Your Excellency that by the government of British Columbia regulations
to carry out the provisions of the Immigration Act. 1900, referred to in my previous
representation, have been promulgated and immigration officers appointed. I beg
to inclose herewith some clipping.^ from a local newspaper containing copy of the
regulation.s referred to, and would respectfull.v suggest that the sooner proper steps
be taken by your government on this matter, the better it would be for all cone 'rued.
I avail myself of this opportunity to renew to Your Excellency the assurance
of my highest con.siderations.
S. SHIMIZU.
His Imperial Japanese Ma'jesiii'a Consul.
64 AyGLO-JAPAXESE COyVEXTIOy
8-9 EDWARD VII., A. 1900
IT AIMS AT ASIATICS.
Persons who cannot write in European characters must not come to British
Columbia. — Transportation companies may fight.
Angus McAllister, of Vancouver, and W. H. Ellis, of Victoria, are immigration
officers, appointed to see to the carrying out of the provision's of Mr. Tatlow's
British Columbia Immigration Act, 1900. The province is divided into two dis-
tricts. Island and Mainland. The pivotal section of this Act is as follows: —
' The immigration into British Columbia of any person who, when asked to do
so b.v the officers appointed under this Act. shall fail himself to write out and sign
in the characters of some language of Europe, an application to the Provincial
Secretary of the province of British Columbia, to the effect and form set out in
section B of this Act annexed, shall be unlawful.
Section B is as follows : —
province of british columbia.
Sir.—
I claim to be exempt from the operation of the British Columbia Immigration
Act. 1900. IMy name is . ily place of abode for the past twelve months
has been . My business calling is . I was bom at
in the year
Yours, &c.,
There are certain exceptions to the rule, such as persons having certificates from
the Provincial Secretary. Agent Gener.nl or officer appointed for the purpose of the
Act: any person specially exempted by the Provinical Secretary: Her Majesty's land
and sea forces; officers and crew of an.v ship of war of any government; any person
duly accredited to British Columbia under the authoritv of the Imperial, Dominion
or any other government ; any person the terms of whose entry into Canada have
teen fixed, or whos? exclusion from Canada has been ordered by any Act of the par-
lia:iient of Canada.
The Act, of course, is aimed at Chinese and Japanese. It may be contested by
the transportation companies. If so, the preliminary bout will come soon, as two
Northern pacific liners are due this week and an Empresf: next week.
The regulations promulgated by the government follow:
REGULATIONS.
For the better carrying out of the provisions of tho British Columbia Immigra-
tion Act, 1900.
For the purposes of the British Columbia Immigration Act, 19CX), His Honour
the Lieutenant Governor in Council ha-; been pleased ti approve fhe division of the
province into two immigration districts, as follows- —
(a) Island District. — To compri-e Victoria City, South Victorin. North Victc
ria, Esquimalt. Xanaimo City. North Nanainio, South Xanaimo, Cowicbnn and
Alberni electoral districts situate on Vancouver is'and.
(h) Mainland District. — To comprise all other territory of the said province.
Under the provisions of the said Act the following are appointed immigration
officers for the district set opposite their respective names: —
William H. Ellis, of the city of Victoria, Island D--jtrict
.Angus MoAlli.<tcr. of the city of Vancou--- Main'and District.
.\nd for the l>otter carrying out of the provisions of the said Act. His Honour
the Lieutenant Oovcrnor in Coimcil has been plciscd to approve of the following
roguliitions fir the guidance of the said immigration officers: —
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMIIIGRATION 65
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
1. The immigration officers appointed foi tlie said immigration districts under
the provisions of the said Act shall, as soon as possible after the publication of these
regulations, recommend for the approval of the Lieut<»nant Governor in Council such
persons as they may deem fit to act as deputy immigration officers for such portions
of the said immigration districts as may be designed in such recommendations.
Upon such recommendation being approved by the Lieutenant Governor in Council,
the persons so approved shall at once proceed to exercise the functions of immigra-
tion officers for the districts for which such appointments may be approved.
2. The immigration officers for the said island and mainland districts shall
forthwith forward all transportation companies that are known to engage in the
business of bringing or transporting immigrants into the province of British Colum-
bia, either by land or water, a copy of these regulations, and request such trans-
portation companies to designate a person or persons from whom the said immigra-
tion officers may obtain notice of the arrival of immigrants into the province of
British Columbia. All such transportation companies are hereby notified that the
provisions of section 6 of the said Act will, from the 1st day of January. 1901, be
strictly enforced.
3. The said immigration officers shall, at all or any time they may consider
advisable, meet any boat, train or other vehicle purporting to carry immigrants into
the said province, and present to each and every such immigrant a copy of the form
' B ' set out in the schedule to the said Act. and upon the person refusing to comply
with the provisions of section 4 of the said Act, the said inunigration officers shall pro-
ceed according to the provisions of the said section.
4. The said immigration officers shall forthwith report to the provincial secre-
tary the names of all transportation companies who may assist in the immigration
of persons unable to comply with the provisions of the said Act.
572 L.
Prom Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto.
Downing Street, 22nd January, 1901.
My Lord, — With reference to my despatch, No. 272, of 5th October last, I hav« the
honour to transmit to you, for the consideratioa of your ministers, a copy of a further
note from the Japanese Minister at this court protesting against the enforcement of
the British Columbia Immigration Act, 1900.
2. I shall be obliged if you will furnish me at the earliest possible opportunity
with the report requested in my despatch under reference on this measure and the
other mentioned in Baron Hayashi"s note of 18th September last.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
The Japanese Ambassador to the Most Hon. the Marquess of Lansdowne.
Japanese Legation, 7th January, 1901.
My Lord Marquess, — I have the honour to inform you that I am inreceipt of a
telegram from the Japanese Consul at Vancouver, informing me that regulations have
been promulgated in British Columbia to carry out the Immigration Act which has
passed the legislative assembly of that province on 31st August last, and that necessary
officers have been appointed by the provincial government for that purpose. To that
legislation as well as other similar measures adopted by that province my government
has taken exception, and I had the honour imder its instructions to write on 18th Sep-
tember last, to Your Lordship's predecessor that Her Majesty's government may see
its way to exercise its influence to annul those enactments. Her Majesty's government
has given prompt attention to my request and the matter has since been referred to
74b— 5
66 j.AGLO-.7.4P.i.Yi;.s£ coyrEyTioy
7-8 EDOUARD VII, A. 1908
the Dominion government. In view, however, of the steps now being taken by the
authorities of that province to enforce those Acts, I have the boner to request Tour
Lordship that the attention of the Governor Geaeral of Canada may be called again,
and that his sanction may without further delay be withheld from those Acts.
HATASHI.
573 L.
From Mr. Chamherlain to Lord Minto.
Downing Street, 22nd January, 1901.
My Lord, — With reference to my despatch, No. 25, of even date respecting the
British Columbia Immigration Act, 1900, I have the honour to request that you will
invite the serious attention of your ministers to the question of the competence of a
provincial legislature to pass such legislation.
2. It is understood from press reports that the Act is of a restrictive nature, based
on the Natal Act, and having regard to the general principals on which the British
North America Act is based, it would appear that such a measure is ultra vires for
any legislative body in Canada, other than the Dominion parliament.
3. The whole scheme of the British North America Act implies the exclusive
exercise by the Dominion of all ' national ' jwwers, and though the power to legislate
for the promotion and encouragement of immigration into the provinces may have
been prop^?rly given to the provincial legislatures, the right entry into Canada of
persons voluntarily seeking such entry is obviously a purely national matter, affecting
as it does directl,- the relations of the Empire with foreign states.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
644 L.
His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of British Golumhia to the Hon. the Secretary
of State.
OovERNMENT HousE, VICTORIA, B.C., March 20, 1901.
Sir, — I have the honour to transmit to you herewith, a copy of an approved
minute, dated the 18th instant, which embodies a resolution expressive of the opinion
of the legislative assembly of this province that the ' Chinese Immigration Act, 1900,'
should be amended so as to require all immigrants to pass an educational tost similar
t" that imposed by the government of the colony of Natal.
H. G. JOLY DE LOTBINIERE,
Lieutenant Governor.
Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Executive Council, approved hy His Honour
the Lieutenant Governor in Council on the 78th dnii of March, 1901.
The Committeo of Council submits for the approval of His Honour the Lieu-
tenant Governor the undermentioned resolution of the legislative assembly of British
Columbia, namely : —
' Whereas the Dominion " Chinese Immigration Act, 1900 " has proven inade-
quate to check the immigration of Chinese;
And, Whereas, the said Act leaves the threatening influx of other Asiatics wholly
unrestrained ;
Be it Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to His Honour the Lieu-
tenant Governor, praying him to advise His Excellency the Governor General of
Canada that, in the opinion of this House, the said Act should be amended so as to
CBIXESE .l.YD JAPAyESF: IMMIGRATIOX 67
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
make all immigrants comply with an educational test, similar to that imposed in the
colony of Natal.'
The committee advise that a copy of this minute, if approved, be forwarded to
the Honourable the Secretary of State of Canada.
Dated this 16th day of March, 1001.
J. D. PRENTICE,
Clerk, Executive Council.
P. C. 663 L.
At Goa-ernment House, Victoria, B.C., March 26, 1901.
The Honourable
The Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Canada.
Sir, — I have the honour to transmit to you herewith a copy of an approved
Report of my Executive Council, which embodies a resolution of the Legislative
Assembly requesting me to urge upon the Dominion Government the desirability of
amending the ' Elections Act " co as to prevent the franchise being exercised by
naturalized subjects of Japan and China.
H. G. JOLY DE LOTBINIERE,
Lieutenant Governor,
THE GOVERSMEXT OF THE PROVKCE OF BRITISH COLUMBU.
Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council, approved
by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 2€th day of March, 1901.
The Committee of Council submit for approval of His Honour the Lieutenant
Governor the undermentioned resolution of the Legislative Assembly of British
Columbia, namely: —
' Whereas a Bill is now pending before the House of Commons of Canada to
amend the '" Elections Act,"' and it is desira^.e that the said Act should be so amended
as to prevent the franchise being exercised by naturalized subjects of Japan and China:
' Be it therefore resolved, that, in the opinion of this House, an humble address
be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, requesting him to communicate
with the Dominion government, pressing upon that government the necessity which
exists for amending the said Act as to accomplish the above object.'
The Committee advise that a copy of this minute, if approved, be forwarded to
the Honourable the Secretai-y of State of Canada.
Dated this Z^nd day of March, 1901.
J. D. PRENTICE,
Cleric Executive Council.
P. C. 694 L.
(Cable.)
From Mr. Chamherlain to Lord Minto.
London, 27th April, 1901.
Referring to my Despatch No. 2o of 22nd January, when may report be exi)ected
Japanese ^Minister pressing for answer.
CHAMBERLAIN.
74b— 5 J
68 ANGLO-JXPAXESE COyVEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
573 L.
Eeport of the Hon. the Minister of Justice, approved by His Excellency the Gov-
ernor General in Council on the 27th June, 1901.
Depaktjient of Justice, Ottawa, 5th March, 1901.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Councit:
There have recently been referred to the undersigned copies of the following
despatches from tlie Eight Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies ad-
dressed to Your Excellency, viz. : Despatch, dated 5th October, 1900, and two despatches
dated 22nd January, 1901. These refer to legislation of the province of British Col-
umbia passed during the year 1900, which has been objected to by the Japanese min-
ister at the Court of St. James on behalf of his government.
In the despatch of 5th October, 1900, Mr. Chamberlain asks to be furnished with
copies of the Acts referred to in the Japanese minister's note and of' any similar
legislation passed since 1898, with any observations which Tour Excellency's ministers
may wish to oiier upon them.
The undersigned submits herewith copies of the volumes of the British Columbia
legislation for 1898, 1899 and 1900, which contain the statutes to which Mr. Gham,-'
berlain wishes to refer.
Previous to the receipt of the despatches above mentioned the undersigned had
considered the legislation in question and had prepared a report to Your Excellency,
copy of which is appended hereto. {See Report of 5th January, 1901, on pp. 134-138.)
The undersigned also submits with his report copy of the correspondence and
Orders in Council with respect to the legislation of 1898. These, in the opinion of
the undersigned, together with the Orders in Council passed respecting the British
Columbia legislation of 1899, which are of record in the Privy Council office, furnished
the information which is called for by the despatches from the Colonial Office above
mentioned.
The undersigned desires to direct Mr. Chamberlain's attention to the fact that the
statutes of British Columbia for the year 1900 were received by the Secretary of State
for Canada on 17th September last; that the time for disallowance will expire within
one year from that date, and that in the view of the undersigned, as set forth in his
report of 5th January last {see page 134), submitted herewith, the objections raised
on behalf of the Japanese government to chapter 18, ' An Act respecting Liquor
Licenses.' and chapter 54, ' An Act to revise and consolidate the Vancouver Incor-
poration Act,' were not of such a serious character as to call for the disallowance of
these Acts which cnntniii many other useful provisions.
Tho undersigned has had some correspondence with the government of British
Columbia with regard to these statutes, and that government is now considering, as
the unviersigncd is informed, the propriety of amending chapter 11, ' An Act to regu-
late immigration into British Columbia, and chapter 14, ' An Act relating to the
employment on works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts,' so as to
remove the grounds of objection taken on behalf of the government of Japan.
The undersigned recommends that a copy of this report, if approved, with the
statutes and exhibits herein referred to, together with the said Orders in Council of
1899, be transmitted immediately to the Right Honourable the Principal Secretary of
State for the Colonies with tho request that he inform Your Excellency's government
as early as possible whether His Majesty's government will be content with the dis-
position which was recommended to be made by the report of the undersigned of
CHIXESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATIOX 69
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
5th January last, or whether any, niul what further action ought to, in the opinion of
His Majesty's government, be had in the matter.
Humbly submitted,
DAVID MILLS,
Minister of Justice.
Mr. E. P. Davis, K.C., to the Japanese Consul.
Vancouver, 9th "March, 1901.
Dear Sir, — Section 5 of the Vancouver Incorporation Act broadly provides that
every male and female soul of the full age of twenty-one years who is the owner or
tenant of real property of a certain value shall be entitled to the municipal franchise
in the city of Vancouver without any regard whatever to the question of nationality
or naturalization. The question that arises then is whether the provincial legislature
has the power to prohibit certain pooplo from exercising this right so given, merely
and solely because such person is a Japanese or a Frenchman or belongs to some other
foreign nationality; in other words, whether the provincial legislature has power
to altaeli certain restrictions upon particular individuals, solely on account of their
nationality.
Section 91 of the British North America Act, subsection 25, gives to the Dominion
parliament exclusive jurisdiction with reference to naturalization and aliens. Section
92 of the same Act, subsection 8. gives to the provincial legislature exclusive jurisdic-
tion with reference to municipal institutions in the province. But it is further pro-
vided at the end of section 91, that any matter coming within any of the classes of
subjects enumerated in that section, shall not be deemed to come within the class of
matters of a local or private nature comprised in the enumeration of the classes of
subjects in section 92.
Section 7 of the Vancouver Incorporation Act (speaking always with reference to
Japanese) is capable of being viewed in two different aspects, according to one of
which it api)ears to fall within the subjects assigned to the provincial parliament by
section 92 of the British Xorth America Act, subsection 8, whilst according to the
other it clearly belongs to the class of subjects exclusively assigned to the legislature
of the Dominion by section 91, subsection 25.
The leading feature, however, of the section consists in this, that it has and can
have no application except to Japanese (whether aliens or naturalized), and that it
establishes no rule or regulation respecting municipal institutions, except that Jap-
.anese, as Japanese, shall not under any circumstances be allowed the right of voting
in the city of Vancouver. This, it seems to me, is unquestionably dealing, and dealing
only, with the subjects of aliens, which is covered by subsection 25. section 91, of the
British North America Act. That section, in other words, establishes a statutory
prohibition affecting Japanese who are aliens, and therefore necessarily trenches upon
the exclusive authority of the parliament of Canada, the necessary result of which is,
in my opinion, that section 7, so far as it relates to Japanese, is ultra virrs of the
provincial legislature and illeg'al.
I do not see how the Un'ion Colliery case (Privy Council case, 1899), can be
distinguished from the present.
E. P. DAVIS.
P. C. 799 L.
Telegram.
Mr. Ckamherlain to Lord Miiito.
LoXDOX, July 17. 1901.
Referring to my telegram of the 27th April, and to previous correspondence res-
pecting legislation affecting rights of Japanese in British Columbia, what action have
70 ASGLO-JAPANESE COyrENTIO^'
7-8 EDOUARD VII, A. 1908
you taken or what is proposed by your ministers? It is the particular desire of His
Majesty's government to do nothing especially at the present time to impair existing
friendly relations with Japan.
CHAMBERLAIN.
P. C. 851 L.
Telegram.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto.
LoNDOXj 22nd August, 1901.
Referring to your despatch Xo. 199 of 11th July His Majesty's government con-
curs in decision of your government as to anti-Japanese legislation in British Col-
umbia.
CHAMBERLAIN.
870 L.
Mr. Chamherlain to Lord Minto.
DowxDfG Street, 2.3rd August, 1901.
My Lord, — With reference to your despatch, No. 199, of the 11th ultimo, in con-
firmation of my telegram of the 22nd instant, I have the honour to transmit to you
for the information of your ministers, a copy of correspondence with the Foreign
C'tfice relating- to certain measures, prejudicially affectins^- Japanese subjects, enacted
by the legislature of British Columbia, and objected to by the Japanese government.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
The Colonial Office to the Foreign Office.
Downing Street, Sth August, 1901.
Sir, — With reference to the letter from this department of the 25th ultimo, I am
directed by 'Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to transmit to you, to be laid before the
Marquess of Lansdovpne, the accompanying despatch from the Governor General of
Canada respecting the British Columbia legislation to which the Japanese govern-
ment has objected.
2. From the printed inclosure, a copy of which was previously oent to your de-
partment, of 12th July, 1899, Lord Lansdowne will observe that of the legislation
passed in 1898 affeetinu: Japanese, two Acts of a general character (chapters 28 and
44) were disallowed, but other Acts containing similar clauses were allowed to remaia
in operation for the reason stated in the marked passage on page 31 of the print,
viz.: That these Acts being mainly concerned with the incorporation of companies,
and having alreadj' come into operation, great inconvenience and hardship would
Lave been caused to the companies if they had been disallowed.
3. With regard to 1899 legislation, which is referred to in the Foreign Office letter
of 24th April, 1899, and conuceted correspondence. Lord Lansdowne will see that the
Dominion government disallowed chapter 39 (relating to liijuor licenses), section 36,
of which prohibited the grant of a license to any Indian, Chinese or Japanese; chap-
ter 44 (the Midway Penticton Railway Subsidy Act), which was objected to, not by
the employment of Chinese or Japanese labourers on the railways in question; and
cliapter .If) (the Placer ]\Iining Act Amendniont Act"), which was objected to, not by
the Japauoso government, but by the United States government; but certain Acts of
a limited cliarncter, similar to the 1S98 Acts referred to above, were left in oix^ration
for the same reason as was given in those cases, and for the further reason that the
viiiy/:si: am) .j.ii'Ay/:st: nnnaRXTiny 71
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
clauses in question were ultra vires under section 91 (25) of 30 Victoria, chapter 3,
an opinion which soenis to be borne nut Iiy thf judgment of the Privy Council on the
appeal of the Union Colliery Company of British Columbia, Limited, vs. Bryden and
the Attorney General for British Columbia, a copy of which was sent to your depart-
ment on 18th September, 1899. The British Columbia government was warned that
any Act which niijfht hereafter be passed similar to those passed in 1898 and 1899
affecting the employment of Japanese, would probably be disallowed.
4. With regard to the 1000 legislation, it will be seeu that the Canadian govern-
ment intend to disallow chapter 11, regidating immigration, and chapter 14, relative
to emploj-ment on works carried out imder legislative franchises, but to leave in
operation chapters 18 and 54; and Mr. Chamberlain proposes, with Lord Lansdowne's
concurrence, to acquiesce in the decision of the Dominion government, chapter 18,
the Liquor License Act, does not contain the provision prohibiting the grant of a
license to any Japanese, which appeared in the Act disallowed in 1899, but only
disentitles Mongolians (with Indians) from recommending as ' householders ' appli-
cations for the issue of licenses, and excludes them from the number of inhabitants
in the vicinity of the proposed ' hotel,' which is one of the data on which an appli-
cation for a license is decided — which provisions do not appear to constitute a dis-
ability to which the Japanese government can seriously • object. Chapter 54 only
disentitles Japanese from voting at Vancouver municipal elections (section 7), and
tlie Dominion government could hardly disallow this long and important Act on the
pround of this one objectionable provision; and further as the clause is ultra vires
(section 91, 24 and 25, of 30 Vic. chap. 3), a Japanese resident in Vancouver, if
Eot otherwise disqualified, can legally enforce his claim to be put in the list of voters.
5. I am to request the favour of an early reply, as it will be necessary to inform
the Dominion government of the decision of His Majesty's government before the
17th September next, when the period during which the power of disallowance may
b- exercised will expire,
H. BERTRAM COX.
The Foreign Office to the Colonial Office.
FoREiGX Office, 19th August, 1901.
Sir, — I am directed by the Marquess of Lansdowne to acknowledge the receipt
of your letter of the 8th instant, forwarding a despatch from the Governor general
of Canada respecting the British Columbia legislation to wnich the Japanese govern-
ment have objected.
With regard to the 1900 legislation. Lord Lansdowne noted that the Canadian
government intended to disallow chapter 11 regulating immigration, and chapter 14,
relative to employment on works caried out imder legislative franchises, but to leave
in operation chapter 18, ' An Act respecting Liquor Licenses, and chapter 54, ' An
Act to revise and consolidate the Vancouver Corporation Act.'
Lord Lansdowne concurs in Mr. Secretary Chamberlain's proposal to acquiesce
in the decision of the Dominion government.
T. H. SAKDERSOX.
1740.
Report of the Hon. the Minister of Justice, approved by His Excellency the Governor
General in Council on the 11th September, 1908
Department of Justice, Ott.\wa, 4th September, 1901.
2'o His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned referring to the order of Your Excellency in Council of 27th
June last, respecting certain statutes of the legislative assembly of British Columbia,
72 ANGLO-JAPANESE CONVENTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
jiassed in the 64th year of Her late Majesty's reign (1900), has the honour to state
that in reply to a communication which was sent to the Eight Honourable the Prin-
cipal Secretary of Statv3 for the Colonies in accordance with the recommendation of
the said Order in Council, a cable reply has beKi received by Your Excellency from
Mr. Chamberlain, dated 22nd August last, stating that His Majesty's government con-
curs in the decision of Tour Excellency's government with regard to these statutes.
This decision is stated in the report to Your Excellency of the undersigned, dated
5th January last, in which it is recommended, for the reasons therein stated, that
chapter 11 of the said statutes, intituled ' An Act to regulate immigration into
British Columbia,' and chapter 14, intituled ' An Act relating to the employment
on works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts,' be disallowed, and
that the other Acts referred to, or specially mentioned in the said report, be left to
their operation.
The undersigned recommends, therefore, that the two statutes above mentioned,
viz. : chapters 11 and 14 be disallowed.
Respectfully submitted,
DAVID MIXLS,
Minister of Justice.
1941.
AT THE GOVERNMEXT HOUSE AT OTTAWA.
THE llTH DAY OF SEPTEUBEE, 1901.
PRESENT :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with th?
legislative assembly of that province, did, on the -Slst day of August, 1900, pass a
statute which has been transmitted, chaptered 11, and intituled ' An Act to regulate
Immigration into British Columbia.'
And whereas the said statute has been laid before His Excellency the Governot
General in Council, together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommend-
ing that the same be disallowed.
Therefore His Excellency the Governor General in Council is pleased to declare
hii disallowance of the said statute and the samo is hereby disallowed accordingly
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, and all
other persons whom it may concern, are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
iugly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott, Earl of ^linto, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the statute passed by the legislature of the province of British Columbia,
on the .Slst day of August, 1900, chaptered 11, and intituled ' An Act to regulate
I'mmigration into British Columbia,' was received by me on the ITth day of Septem-
Ut, 1900.
Given under my hand and seal this 11th day of September, 1901.
MINTO.
CBIKESE A\D JAPANESE IMMIGRATIOy 73
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
1760.
AT THE GOVERNMENT HOl Se AT OTTAWA,
THE 11th day of September, 1901.
PRESENT :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with the
legislative assembly of that province did on the 31st day of Au^st last, 1900, pass a
statute which has been transmitted, chaptered 14 and intituled ' An Act relating to
the employment on works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts.'
And whereas the said statute has been laid before His Excellency the Governor
General in Council, together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommend-
ing that the same be disallowed ;
Therefore His Excellency the Governor General in Council is pleased to declare
bis disallowance of the said statute and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, and all
other persons whom it may concern, are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of ihe Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott, Earl of Minto, Governor General of Canada, do
I'treby certify that the statute passed by the legislature of the province of British
Columbia on the 31st day of August, 1900, chaptered 14, and iuutuled ' An Act
relating to the employment on works carried on under franchises granted by private
Acts,' was received by me on the 17th day of September, 1900.
Given under my hand and seal this 11th day of September, 1901.
MINTO.
897 L.
The Japanese Consul to His Excellency the Governor Gt.neral.
His Imperial .Jap.\nese Majesty's Consulate for Canada,
Vakcouver, B.C., 22nd September, 1901.
Your Excellency, — With reference to my representation of 1st September, 1901,
I have the honour to respectfully express to Your Excellency my sincere gratitude
that is no doubt shared by our nation felt at the final action recently taken by Your
Excellency's government through which the Immigration Act and the Labour Regul-
ation Act of British Columbia, 1900, have been disallowed. This action cannot but
tend, I believe, to strengthen the friendly feeling happily existing, not only between
Japan and China, but also between Japan and the British Empire at large.
I avail myself of this opportunity to renew to Your Excellency the assurance of
my highest considerations.
S. SHIMIZU,
His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul.
74 AXGLO-JAPAyEiif: coyvEXTioy
7-8 EDOUARD VII, A. 1903
40.
Eeport of the Honourable the Minister of Justice, approved by His Excellency the
Governor General in Council on the 17th January, 1902.
Department of Justice, Ottawa, 2Tth December, 1901.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersiguedl has had under consideration the following statutes of British
Columbia, passed in the 1st year of His Majesty's reign (1901), viz.: —
Chapter 32, ' An Act to authorize the loan of five million dollars for the purpose
of aiding the construction of railways and other public works.'
Section 10 of this Act authorizes the Lieutenant Governor in Council to enter
into agreements with any person or company undertaking the construction of any rail-
way to which a subsidy is hereby attached, which may be necessary or convenient for
the due construction and operation of such railway, which agreements shall, in every
instance, in addition to other matters therein provided for, contain the provisions
set forth in the said section. These include among others the following: —
' (e.) That the Lieutenant Governor in Council shall have absolute control of
the freight and passenger rates to be charged by the railway, and that, notwithstand-
ing, and in the event of the railway being or becoming subject to the jurisdiction of
tho Dominion government, the same shall lie assumed by the company, and shall be
deemed a contract between the province and the company,'
' ((■.) That no aliens shall be employed on tho railway during construction, un-
less it is demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Lieutenant Governor in Council that
the work cannot be proceeded with without the employment of such aliens.'
Chapter 65, ' An Act to amend the " Arrowhead and Kootenay Kailway Company
Act, 1898." '
Chapter 69, An Act to incorporate the Coast-Kootenay Eailway Company,
Limited.'
Chapter 70, ' An Act to amend " Columbia and Western Railway Company's Act,
1898," '
Chapter 71, ' An Act to incorporate the Comox and Cape Scott Railway Com-
pany.'
Chapter 72, ' An Act to incorporate the Crawford Bay Railway Company.'
Chapter 77, ' An Act to incorporate the Imperial Pacific Railway Company.'
Chapter 78, ' An Act to incorporate the Kamloops and Atlin Railway Company.'
Chapter 79, ' An Act to incorporate the Kootenay Central Eailway Company.'
Chapter 81, ' An Act to incorporate the ^lidway and Vernon Railway Company.'
Chapter 83, ' Aii Act to incorporate the Queen Charlotte Islands Railway Com-
pany.'
Chapter 84, ' An Act to incorporate the Vancouver and Grand i'orks Railway
Company.'
Chapter 85, ' An Act to incorporate the Victoria Terminal Railway and Ferry
Company;' and
Chapter 87, ' An Act to incorporate tho Yale-Northern Railway Company.'
Each of these statutes contains a provision in effect that no aliens shall be
employed on the railway during construction unless it is demonstrated to the satisfac-
tion of tho Lieutenant Governor in Council that the work cannot be proceodcd with
without tho employment of such aliens. Each of these statutes contains the further
provision that tlie Act fhall not come into force and effect imtil such time as the com-
pany shall give security to the satisfaction of the Governor in Council.
CIliyt:.SK AXD JirASKSE IMSllORATIOy 75
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
' (1.) That the Lieutenant Governor in Council shall have the right from time to
time to fix maximum rates for freight and passenger traffic, and the company shall
not charge rates higher than those fixed.
• (-2.) That is the event of Dominion legislation bringing this railway company
under the exclusive jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada, the foregoing conditions
shall be carried out by the company so incorporated, as a contract and obligation of
said company, prior to any other charge thereon."
Chapter G8, intituled 'An Act to incorporate the Chikat and Klehini Railway
and Navigation Company,' and
Chapter 80. intituled ' An Act to incorporate the Lake Bennett Railway.'
Each of these chapters contains the provision above quoted with regard to the
security to be given to the satisfaction of the Lieutenant Governor in Council regard-
ing the fixing of maximum rates, but they do not contain the clause with respect to
aliens
Chapter 85. In addition to the objectionable clauses which have been stated, thia
Act contains a provision empowering the company to adopt and carry into effect the
draft agreement recited in and incorporated with a Bill passed by the municipal coun-
cil of the City of Victoria, copy of which is set forth in the schedule to the Act. This
agreement provides among other things that no Chinese or Japanese jjerson shall be
employed on any of the works or undertakings agreed to be carried out by the com-
pany, or in the operation of such undertakings after construction, and in the event
of any Chinese or Japanese person being so employed, the company shall forfeit
and pay to the corporation the sum of $.50 per day for every person so employed.
Chapter 86. 'An Act empowering the corporation of the city of Victoria to lease
the market building premises and otherwise carry into effect the 'Victoria Terminal
Railway By-law. 1900.'
Thi.s statute declares that the Victoria Terminal Railway By-law. 1900, which is
the by-law already referred to. was duly passed, and shall be absolutely valid and bind-
ing upon the corporation according to the terms thereof, and the council is empowered
to carry out and give force and effect to all the provisions, agreements, stipulations
and conditions in the said by-law set forth. The by-law recites the agreement con-
taining the clause with respect to Chinese or Japanese already mentioned.
Dealing first with the provisions above quoted with regard to the Lieutenant
Governor in Council fixing maximum rates for freight and passenger traffic, and what
shall happen in the event of Dominion legislation bringing these railway companies
under the exclusive jurisdiction of parliament, the undersigned has difficulty in imder-
standing what is intended by the legislature. The words have already been quoted.
They would have to be construed having regard to the Dominion legislation whatever
it might be, affecting the company, if its railway were brought under the exclusive
jurisdiction of parliament. In so far as, consistently with such legislation, the provin-
cial statute incorporating the company might operate, the original chapter would
probably remain in oiieration, and the provision in question would give it no additional
effect. In so far, however, as it is attempted to follow these companies into Dominion
jurisdiction, and govern them by provincial enactment intended to come into effect
after they have passed beyond the authority of the province, the legislation can, in the
opinion of the undersigned, have no effect.
The imdersigned has already stated his view upon such legislation with regard
to a similar clause in the British Columbia Acts of 1889, vide report of undersigned
approved by Your Excellency on 14th December. 1899. So long as these railways are
subject to local jurisdiction there cnn be no objection to the c'ause now in question.
It is not necessarj- to consider whether or not parliament is likely to take any action
in the matter. It is certain thatjf at any time these railways should fall within the
exclusive jurisdiction of parliament, previously existing enactments with regard
to them can have effect only in so far as parliament intends, and. therefore, what-
76 AyGLO-JAPANESE COXTEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ever the construction of these clauses or the iuteutiou of the legislature with regard
to them may be, it seems to the undersigned harmless so far as Dominion interests
are concerned. The undersigned would not, therefore, recommend disallowance of
any of these Acts upon the ground solely that they contain clauses upon which he
has already commented.
The undersigned has received a communication from the Japanese Consul at
Vancouver objecting to the clause above quoted with respect to aliens, particularly
with regard to the legislation respecting the Victoria Terminal Eailway and Ferry
Company, and he points to the clause respecting the Japanese contained in the
agreement set forth in the above-mntioned by-law. It is unnecessary for the under-
signed to review here the correspondence which has t?ken place during- the last three
years between the Imperial government. Tour Excellency's government and the
government of British Columbia with regard to legislation respecting the Javanese.
A number of statutes have been disallowed, and the government and legislature of
the province are well aware of the policy of Tour Excellency's government with re-
gard to such legislation and the reasons for it. Heretofore exception has been made
■5\4th respect to Acts incorporating private companies because of the inconvenience
which might arise if these statutes were disallowed after the companies had been
organized and commenced operations, but in the report of the undersigned referring
xc the disallowan:e of previous Acts of British Columbia for the same reason, and
t the Acts then tinder review, stated : ' Inasmuch, however, as certain statutes of
British Columbia were disallowed in 1899 on account of provisions attempting to
render illegal the employment of Japanese, and as certain other statutes will, if this?
report be approved, soon be disallowed for the same reason, the undersigned con-
siders that by the time of another session of the legislature it will be safe to hold
that the views of Her Majesty's government and of this government with regnrd to
anti-Japanese legislation, are generally and sufficiently understood in British Colum-
bia, and, therefore, it may well be considered, in case of this objectionaWe section
appearing in future acts of incorporation, or acts affecting private companies, that
these companies' Acts ought not to have exceptional tr,;'atment. The applicmts
may be held to have obtained the legislation at their own risk, and persons dealing
with corporations incorporated by charters attempting to imro=e disabilities upon
aliens may also be held to have acted with mitioe of the views entertained by Tour
Excellency's government, and of the action which would probably be taken with
respect to such measures '
A copy of this report was duly communicated to the provincial government, and
in face of the warning so given, the undersigned does not consider that .inv fur-
ther exception should be made. The statutes now in question contain all the objec-
tionable provisions which led to the disallowance of th= former Acts. The objections
are in the present instance more serious, inasmuch as not only Japanese, but all
aliens, are disqualified from employment to the extent mentioned in these acts. The
subject of aliens is clearly within the exclusive authority of parliament.
Immigration is also within Dominion jurisdiction, and it has been, and is, the
policy of Tour Excellency's government to promote immigration, large sums of money
being annually expended from the Dominion treasury to that end. The efforts of
Tour Excellency's government would, however, be certainly p:iralyzod if the immi-
grant, upon coming to Canada, is to find the way of employment closed to him by
provincial legislation. The policy of these enactments is so contrai-y to that of Tour
Exccllencj-'s government, and the enactments themselves so manifestly ultra rires,
that the undersigned considers that no course is open to Tour Excellency's govern-
ment, consistently with the public interest, but the exercise of the power of disnllow-
ance, unless, indeed, the provincial legislature repeal these provisions.
The undersigned, therefore, recommends that a copy of this report, if approved,
b<? transmitted to the Lieutenant Ooveninr of British Co'umbia, with a request that
CrUXUHE AXD JAPAXEtiE I MMrOirVIKtX 77
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
lie iiit'nriu Youi' Exoelk'ncy's guvt-riimciit as soon as convenient whether these Acts
will be amended within the time limited for disallowance by repealing the clause
affecting aliens, and further as to the legislation respecting the Victoria Terminal
Railway and Ferry Company, by reforming the by-law and agreement therein re-
ferred to, so as to do away with the provisions relating to Japanese.
Respectfully submitted,
DAVID MILLS,
Minister of Justice.
26.
Report of the llonnurahle the Minister of Justice upon Ch-apter ltd, approved hy His
Excellency the Governor General in Council on the 10th January, 1902.
Department of Jl stice, Ottawa, December 27th, 1901.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has the honour to submit his report upon the Revenue Tax Act,
1901, of the statutes of British Columbia, 1 Edward VII., chaptered 46, intituled 'An
Act to provide for the collection of a tax on persons.'
This Act requires every male person, as defined by the Act, in the province of
British Columbia to pay an annual revenue tax of $3, subject to be increased as pro-
vided by the Act, which tax is to fall due from and after January 2nd in each year,
and shall be payable in advance for the use of His Majesty in the right of the pro-
vince. It- is provided, however, that every merchant, farmer, trader or employer of
labour shall on demand of the assessor and collector pay the annual tax for every
male person in his employ, not only at the time when such demand is made, but also
from time to time for every male person in his employ during the year for wihch the
tax is payable, and may deduct the amount so paid on account of any male person
from the amount of salary or wages due or to become due to any such male person
upon the production or delivery of the receipt for su,"h tax for such person. It is
provided that every sucli merchant, farmer, trader or employer of labour shall be
primarily liable for the said tax in respect of every male person in his employ, and
that he shall be liable to all the provisions of the Act with regard to such persons
in his employ.
It is not clear to the undersigned whether in the case of an employee the statute
intends that payment should be enforced directly against him. Express provision is,
however, made for enforcing payment of the tax imposed in respect of such employee
against the employer.
It seems clear to the undersigned that this method of taxation, so far as the em-
ployer in respect of those in his employ is concerned, is not direct taxation. The power
of a local legislature to tax arises under the 2nd and 9th enumerations of section 92 of
the British North America Act, viz.: ' (2) Direct taxation within the province in order
to the raising of a revenue for provincial purposes;' and ' (9) shop, saloon, tavern and
auctioneer, and other licenses in order to the raising of a revenue for provincial, local
or municipal purposes.' No question of licenses is involved in this Act, and, therefore,
in so far as the Act authorizes indirect taxation, it is ultra vires, A definition quoted
by the highest judicial authority as embod.ving an understanding of the most obvious
indicia of direct and indirect taxation, which is a common understanding, and likely
to have been present to the minds of those who passed the Act of Union, is the defini-
tion of John Stuart Mill, as follows : ' Taxes are either direct or indirect. A direct
tax is one which is demanded from the very persons who it is intended or desired should
pay it. Indirect taxes are those which are demanded from one person, in the expecta-
tion and intention that he shall indemnify himself at the expense of another.'
78 AyGLO-JAPAXESE COyVENTION
7-8 EDOUARD VII, A. 1908
The project of taxing the employer in respect of his employees, and authorizing
him to withhold the amount of the tax so paid from the -wages due to the employee,
is not one by which the tax is demanded from the persons who it is intended or desired
should pay it, but rather by which the tax is demanded from one person in the expecta-
tion and intention that he shall indemnify himself af the expense of another. It
would be perhaps hard to find a more apt illustration of a tax indirectly levied than
that furnished by this legislation. The undersigned entertains no doubt that sec-
tions 5, 6 gnd 7, and the other provisions of the Act affecting the employer of labour
as such should be repealed, and he recommends that inquiry be made of the provin-
cial government upon communication of a copy of this report as to whether such
amendments will be made within the time limited for disallowance.
Respectfully submitted,
DAVID MILLS,
Minister of Justice.
P.C. 369.
Presbyterian Church in Canada,
Foreign Mission Committee
(Western Division)
Toronto, March 4th, 1902.
To the Honourable
The Secretary of State, Ottawa.
At a Conference of the Foreign Mission Boards held in Toronto on the 25th and
26th February, at which Delegates from forty different boards were present, represert-
irg every section of the Protestant Christian Church in the LTnited States and Canada,
the following resolution was proposed by the Rev. R. P. Mackay, D.D., Secretary of
the Foreign Mission Committee of the Presbyterian Church in Canada, supported by
the Rev. S. L. Baldwin, D.D., of the Methodist Episcopal Church in the LTnited States,
and unanimously adopted.
'Resolved, that as representatives of the Foreign Mission Boards of Canada and
the LTnited States we deprecate the Anti-Chinese agitation in the two countries,
looking to a re-enactment of exclusion laws and to making said laws more stringent.
We regard this agitation as uncalled for, and in violation of the Golden Rule and the
Spirit of Christianity.
We urge that in an.y new legislation enacted, an effort be made to secure just
immigration laws of universal application instead of laws discriminating against a
particular people.'
It was further agreed that a copy of this Resolution be sent to the proper authori-
ties at Ottawa and Washington.
W. HENRY GRANT,
Secretary of Conference,
P. C. 1082— L.
At the (iovEKNjiENT House, Victoria, B.C.
The 26th of March, 1902.
The Honourable
The Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Canada.
Sir, — I have the honour to transmit to you, herewith, a certified copy <if a minute
of the Executive Council, approved by me on the 21st. instant, which embodies a
Resolution of the Legislative Assembly of this Province n^qiiesting me to represent to
CHIXE,-iE ASD JAI'AyE.SK IMMIGRATION^ 79
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
the Federal Government the necessity of enacting Legislation during the present
session of Parliament to give effect to the recommendation of the Royal Commission-
ers appointed to enquire into the Asiatic question in British Columbia.
H. O. JOLY DE LOTBIXIERE.
Lkutenanl Govei~nor.
Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council, approved
by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 21st day of March, 1902.
The Committee of Council submit for the approval of His Honour the Lieiitrnant
Governor the undermentioned Resolution of the Legislative Assembly of British
Columbia, namely : —
'Whereas the Royal Commission recently appointed by the Dominion Government
to enquire into the Asiatic question in this Province have reported strongly against
the immigration of Chinese and Japanese into Canada :
Be it therefore Resolved, That an humble Address be pr<>seuted to His Honour
the Lieutenant Governor, requesting him to communicate with the Dominion Govern-
ment urging upon that Government the necessity which exists for passing legislation
at this Session of the Federal Parliament giving immediate and full effect to the
recommendations of the majority report of the said Commissioners.'
The Comittee advise that a copy of this minute, if approved, be forwarded to the
Honourable the Secretary of State of Canada.
Dated this 20th day of March. 1902.
Certified.
J. D. PREXTICE.
Cleric Ereciifive Cmincil.
Eeport of fhe Honourable the Minister of Justice upon Chapter Jf6, approved hy Hi^
Excellency the Governor General in Council on the 12th June, 1903.
Department of Justice, Ottawa, June 9th, 1902.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned, referring to the despatch of the Lieutenant Governor of British
Columbia of 29th ultimo, observes that with regard to chapter 46 of the British
Columbia Act, 1901, intituled: 'An Act to provide for the collection of a tax on
IXTRons," the provincial govermnent refers to correspondence with the undersigned.
The Attorn(»y General of British Columbia wrote Mr. Mills on 31st January last,
referring to Mr. Mills' report to Your Excellency upon this statute of 2Tth December,
1901. The Attorney General stated as foUows: —
' These provisions in almost their present form were first enacted by sections 6, 7
and 8, chapter 24 of 1S81, and afterwards re-enacted by sections 8 and 9 of chapter
110 of the consolidated statutes of 1888, and by sections 5, 6 and 7 of chapter 167 of
the revised statutes of 1897.
' You will, therefore, see that this legislation is not new, and that on three occa-
sions the Dominion executive have allowed it to go into effect.
' I have no doubt that these provisions were first devised to facilitate the collec-
tion of poll tax from the Chinese. As you are no doubt aware, we have in this pro-
vince quite a large number of Chinese and Japanese labourers. It is almost impossi-
ble to identify these men, and so they can evade payment of this tax. Very few of
them possess any property that can be reached, so the only way to compel them to
contribute towards the revenue of the province is by a poll tax collectable through
their employers.
80 AXGLO-JAPAlsESE COXTEyTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
' I feel confident that you are not inclined to throw any iinneceosary obstacles in
the way of our compelling these people to contribute a reasonable amount towards the
maintenance of government in the province in which they make the money which they
forthwith export to China.
' In your report I notice you make this observation: " It is not clear to the under-
signed whether in the case of an employee the statute intends that payment should be
enforced directly against him." I submit it is reasonably clear that a collector may
jiroceed either against the employer or the employee for the amount of the tax. Sec-
tion 3 imposes the tax upon every male person and subsection (3) of section 5, in my
opinion recognizes the liability of the employee to pay the tax, and provides that in
the event of his doing so, any liability of the employer shall cease. I would strongly
urge upon you this view of the statute, that it imposes a direct tax upon every male
above a certain age; that his liability to pay does not cease upon being employed by
another, but that in that event by a statutory attachment of the " salary or wages due
or to become due to such male person " (S. 5, subsection 1) the employer becomes
liable, out of such salary or wages, to pay the debt due to the Crown oy the employee,
and that the employer's payment of the tax discharges pro tanto his liability to his
employee.
' I consider it quite competent for a provincial legislature to enact that all moneys
due or to become due from an employer shall be attached until a tax debt due from the
employee to the Crown or to a municipality shall have been discharged, and that out
of such moneys the employer shall pay the tax.
' It may be that all the provisions of this Act are not as well drawn as they might
bt, but I submit that the above is a fair interpretation to put upon the statute as i
whole. You lay stress in your report upon the clause in subsection (1) of section 5,
that '' Every such merchant, farmer, trader or employer of labour, shall be primarily
liable for the said tax in respect of every male person in his employ at any time during
the year for which said tax is payable, and until the tax is paid in respect of such
person." That clause it seems to me may be fairly interpreted to refer to the employ-
ers' liability as garnishee and to be a direction to the collector to have recourse in
the first instance to the employer instead of wasting time and money collecting from
the employees.
' If you cannot adopt this view, 1' am prepared to submit legislation either repeal-
ing the clause or making it clear that it has the meaning I attribute to it. As the
disallowance of this Act or the striking out from it of the attachment provisions
would seriously effect our already inadequate revenue, I ask that you reconsider the
Act, and that you do not have it disallowed at least until I fail to rumove your objec-
tions to it.'
The undersigned having considered these observations of the Attorney GSeneral
thereupon, the Deputy Minister of Justice, by direction of the undersigned, wrote Mr.
Eberts under the date of February 21st last as follows : —
'Referring to your letter of 31st ultimo, addressed to Mr. Mills, with regard to the
Revenue Tax Act, 1901, of BritLsh Columbia, 1 observe that there uas been similar
legislation in force in British Columbia since 1881, and I am not aware that any ques-
tion has come before the courts with regard to it. It would seem, therefore, that the
people of the province must have largely acquiesced in the enforcement of these pro-
visions. The Minister, however, entertains no doubt that they are ullra vires to the
extent stated in his predecessor's report, approved on 10th ultimo. Any employer
objecting to the validity of the Act may, of course, conveniently have the question
determined by the courts, and in view of the fact which you state, that previous
statutes were not disallowed, he is not inclined to recommend extreme measure* witli
regard to the present Act. He thinks, however, that it would be worth while for you
to consider whether a more constitutional means cannot be devised for ensuring the
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 81
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
ccllection of the tax, as it is not unlikely, particulnrly as attention ha^ now been called
to the invalidity of tho statute, that litisiatinn may arise which will involve the
province in costs, and otherwise prove embarrassing.
'Awaiting a reply to the official despatch, the Minister does not propose at present
to make any further recommendation to His Excellency.'
The undersigned, considering the communication of the Attorney General and the
aforesaid reply, and for the reasons therein stated, recommends that the Act in ques-
tion be left to such operation as it may have.
Humbly submitted,
C. FITZPATEICK,
Minister of Justice.
1052.
Report of the Honourable the Minister of Justice, approved hy His Excellency the
Governor General in Council on the 12th June, 19U2.
Department of Justice, Ottawa, June 9th, 1902.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
There has been referred to the imdersigned a despatch of the Lieutenant Governor
ol Fiitish Columbia, dated 29th ultimo, transmitting a copy of a minute of the Execu-
tive Council of that province, dated 2Sth ultimo, approving a report of the Attorney
General with regard to certain statutes passea by the Provincial Legislature, 190j., to
which objections have been raised by Your Excellency's Government.
The imdersigned observes that as to the following statutes the provincial govern-
ment recommend the amendments suggested by Your Excellency's Government as
alternatives to disallowances, viz. : —
Chapter 10, ' An Act to amend tho Companies Act, 1897 ; '
Chapter 25, ' An Act respecting the fisheries of British Columbia ; '
Chapter 32, ' An Act to authorize a loan of five milion dollars for the purpose of
aiding the construction of railways and other public works ; '
Chapter 65, ' An Act to amend the Arrowhead and Kootenay Railway Company,
Act, 1898;'
Chapter 69, ' An Act to incorporate the Coast Kootenay Railway Company,
Limited ; '
Chapter 70, ' An Act to amend the Columbia and Western Railway Company Act,
1S95;'
Chapter 71, ' An Act to incorporate the Commox and Cape Scott Railway Com-
pany;'
Chapter 72, ' An Act to incorporate the Crawford Bay Railway Company; '
Chapter 77, 'An Act to incorporate the Imperial Pacific Railway Company;'
Chapter 78, ' An Act to incorporate the Kamloops and Atlin Railway Company ; '
Chapter 79, ' An Act to incorporate the Kootenay Central Railway Company; '
Chapter 81, 'An Act to incorporate the Midway and Vernon Railway;'
Chapter S3, ' An Act to incorporate the Queen Charlotte Islands Railway Com-
pany ; '
Chapter "34, ' An Act to incorporate the Vancouver and Grand Forks Railway
Company ; '
Chapter 87, ' An Act to incorporate the Yale Northern Railway Company.'
The time for disallowance of these statutes will expire on 23rd instant. The
legislature of British Columbia has been for some time in session, yet it does not?
appear from the despatch that the amending Acts have been passed, although it is
distinctly st'ated that the provincial government recommends such amendments.
74b— 6
82 AyGLO-JAPAyEf<E coyTESTioy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The inidersigned considers that Your Excellency's government should, have a
definite assurance previous to 23rd instant, that these recommendations have been
carried into effect, and he recommends wiph regard to the various Acts above men-
tioned that a telegraph despatch be sent to the Lieutenant Governor of British
Columbia, acknowledging his despatch of 29th uMmo, with the inclosures, stating
that the power of disallowance will not be exercised if the amendments proposed are
sanctioned within the time limited for disallowance; that the matter is, however, of
so much consequence that the action of the legislature cannot be permitted t)o remain
in doubt, and that it will be necessary for Your Excellency's government to take
further action unless on or before the 23rd instant Your Excellency's government
is advised that the necessary amendments have been finally passed.
Chapter 68, ' An Act to incorporate the Chilkat and Klehini Eailway and Navi-
gation Company,' and
Chapter 80: 'An Act to incorporate the Lake Bennetrt Eailway Company.'
The latter of these Acts has recently been disallowed for the reasons stated in a
previous report of the undersigned.
As tio Chapter 68, the undersigned has nothing to add to the report of his pre-
decessor of 27th December last.
Chapter 85, ' An Act to incorporate the Victoria Terminal Railway and Ferry
Comipany, and
Chapter 86. ' An Act empowering the corporation of the city of Victoria tlo lease
the market building premises and otherwise carry into effect the Victoria Terminal
By-law, 1900.'
With regard tK) these two Acts, it is stated in the provincial despatch that the
Attorney General has requested he council of the city of Victoria to advise him what
action the city propose to take towards reforming tlhe agreements and by-laws so as
to render them unobjectionable to the undersigned, and that as this mattler has not
as yet been dealt with by the council of Victoria, the Attorney General is n")t in a
position to make any recommendation respecting these Acts.
The undersigned observes that chapter 85 contjiins a clause respecting aliens, the
same as that contained in the other Acts of incorporation hereinbefore enumerated,
and the reasons which have led the provincial government to recommend fhe repeal
of that clause in other Ac^ of incorporation, apply equally in the present casa.
There is the further objection, both tJo this chapter and chapter 86, that the agree-
ment and by-law ratifying the same which are referred to in both statutes, provide
that no Chinese or Japanese person shall be employed upon the works of tihe com-
pany.
The undersigned wotiM be satisfied to leave these Acts to their op^i-ation if
section 25 of chapter 85 were repealed, and if an amendment were made affecting
both tJhese statutes, declaring that nothing in either Act contained should impose
any statutory disability upon the company to employ Japanese. The action to be
taken by the legislature does not, therefore, in the opinion of tihe undersigned depend
upon the council of the city of Victoria, and he considers that this viow should be
communic.nted by telegraph t!o the Lieutenant Governor, with the request to inform
Your Excellency's government within the time limitcil for disillowance, whether
such amendments have been made.
Chapter 37: 'An Act to amend the Inspection of ^^letallifcrous Mines Acti and
amending Act.'
The British Columbia Mining Association petitioned against this Act upon the
grounds stilted in their petition, a copy of which was submitted to Your Excellency,
with the report of the predecessor of the undersigned of 2Sth December last. The
statute provides for the appointment of inspectors of mines, rccfiiires report.^ and
rct;iirns to he made to the provincial government respecting accidents and the wor'<-
ing of the mines, &c., and establishes a code of signals for use in the working of the
CHIXESE AM) JAPAXESE IMillGRATWy 83
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
7iiinej!. It also limits the o;nplo.viiieiit of engineers to eight hours pei' day. Th"?
objections of the British Columbia Mining Association relat)e to the code of signals,
which is said not to be reasonably practicable. This legislation is so clearly compe-
tent to the province that the undersigned feels tiiat Your Excellency cannot Ao
more than represent the views of the aissociation to the provincial government. That
has been already done, and it is stated by the provincial despatch that it: i.-: so clear
that this legislation should not be interfered with, that; the provincial government
does not recommend its amendment or repeal.
The undersigned con.siders. therefore, that this mat:ter must b? left in tlie hands
of the local authorities, and he recommends that the petitioners be so informal.
The undersigned further recommends that a copy of tSiis report, if approved, be
transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia, for the infsrrantion of
his government.
Respectfully submiCted,
C. FITZPATTCIC'K,
MinistT of Jiisti-e.
1070.
Report of the Honourable the Minister of Justice, approved hy llis Excellency the
Governor General in, Council on the SOlh June, 1902
Department of Justice, Otta\v.\, 12th June, 1902.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Ccnincil:
The undersigned, referring t;j his report of 9th instant, has the honour to state
that in accordance with the recommendations therein made, the Secretary of State
has telegrapheed to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia and received
his reply, which has been referred to the undersigned. The Lieutenant Governor
states as follows : ' My government will not amend chapters 85 and 86 unless re-
quested by municipal council of Vict;iria. Bills have been introduced to carry out
recommended amendments to chapters 10, 25, .32. 65. 69. 70, 71, 72, 77, 78. 79, 81, 83,
84 and 87. My government will undertake that said bills will certainly be passed at
• present session so far as they can give an undertaking respecting action of legis-
latlure.'
The undersigned considers that Your Excellency may properly accept the assur-
ance so given by the Lieutenant Governor that the Acts mentioned oth^r than chap-
ters 85 and 86, will be satti.-^factorily amended at the present ses-ion of the legisla-
ture, and he recommends, therefore, that none of these Acts be disallowed.
As to chapters 85 and 86, it is to be observed that the provincial government
decline f;o promote any amendment unless requested by the municipal council of
Victoria. The undersigned has alfeady pointed out that the action which the gov-
ernment and legi.^lature of British Columbia ought to take does not depend upon
any request; from the uiunieipal council, and he would, in view of the correspondence,
recommend the disallowance of these two Acts, were it not for the fact that it is
represented to the undersigned thntl the Victoria Terminal Riilwar and Ferry Com-
pany has already constructed its works, or a large portion thereof, that it has acquired
rights and expended a large amount of capital upon t!he faith of the agreement with
the city, and the two statutes in question, and it would, therefore, lead to verv great
hard.^hip and expense, as well as some confusion of intlerests. in which innocent
persons might suffer, if these Acts were disallowed. Further, the undersigned en-
tertains no doubt that the clause constituting the objeetaon to the legislation is
clearly vltra vires, and cannot legally affect the rights or eapicittv of aliens or
Japanese or others, again.st whom it may be nominallv directed. For these excep-
Y4b— 6i
84 AlfGLO-JAPANESE COyTEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
tional reasons, the undersigned considers that chapters 85 and S6 may be left! to such
operation as they may have, notwithstanding the probability, which appears very
great, thati the legislature will not make the suggested amendments. The non-
disallowance of these Acts should not, however, be regarded as a procedent or urged
in support of any discrimination in favour of future Acts of incorpoation contain-
ing these or similar objectionable clauses, filie general intention of Your Excellency's
government being for the future to make no exception in the disallowance of the
statutes of British Columbia ailecting aliens generally or specially directsed again-t
the Japanese.
The undersigned recommends that a copy of this report, if approved, be transmitt-
ed to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia, for the information of his govern-
ment.
Humbly submitted,
C. FITZPATRICK.
Minister of Justice.
1181.
British Columbia — 2 Edward VII., 1902 — 3rd Sessiox 9th Legislature.
Japanese Consul General to His Excellency the Governor General.
Imperul Consulate General of Japan, June 25th, 1902.
Sir, Tour Excellency, — In the name of His Imperial Japanes'e Majesty's govern-
ment, I have the honour to call Your Excellency's serious attention to the following
Bills that were passed by the British Colvmibia Legislative Assembly during the
session which is just over, and to which assent was given on the 23rd instant by His
Honour the Lieutenant Governor of the province, viz. : —
The section 14 above referred to will prejudicially affect the number of Japanese
of the province, namely: —
1st. The Bill entitled 'An Act to further amend the Coal Mines Eegulation Act.'
According to the rexwrt made to me by His Imperial Majesty's consul at Vancou-
ver, the said Bill has taken the form of re-enacting rule 34 of section 82 of chapter 138
of the revised statutes of British Columbia, with the addition to the said rule of the
word 'Japanese' inserted after the word 'Chinaman.'
This rule, therefore, reads as follows : 'Rule 34. No Chinaman, Japanese, or per-
son unable to speak English, shall be appointed to or shall occupy any position of trust
or responsibility in or about a mine, subject to this Act, whereby through his ignorance,
carelessness or negligence he might endanger the life or limb of any person employed
in or about a mine, viz., as bankman, onsetter, signalman, brakeman, pointsman, fur-
naceman, engineer, or be employed below ground or at the windlass of a sinlsing pit.'
This rule, as Your Excellency is already aware of, as it appeared in the revised
statutes of British Columbia, that is, without the present addition of the word 'Japan-
ese,' was disallowed practically by the decision rendered by the Privy C-ouncil of Great
Britain, which decided on an appeal taken from the decision of the full court of the
province of British Columbia, as follows: —
'That an enactment by a provincial legislature that no Chinaman shall be employ-
ed in 7ninos is beyond its competence, inasmuch as by the Biitish North America Act,
1.S67. section 91, subsection 25, legislation with respect to naturalization and aliens is
reserved exclusively for the parliament of the Dominion of Canada.' Relying on this
decision of the highest tribunal of the British Empire, the present Bill must surely be
ultra viros of the powers of the legislative assembly of British Columbia, as the word
'Japanese' as ad<led is only variation in the originally di.sallowed rule 34.
2nd. Tlie Bill No. 14: An Act relating to the employment on works carried on
under franchises granted by private Acts, with one section added, as follows: —
CHlNEiiE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 85
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
' (.1) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may appoint the chief of the provincial
police and any provincial jKilicc constable or other persons as officers to carrj' out and
enforce the provisions of this Act.'
The provisions of this Act are the same, with the exception of last section 10, as
given above, which has been added, as that Act passed as Chapter 14, 1900, Statutes of
British Columbia, and entituled: —
■ An Act relating to the employment on works carried on under franchises granted
by Private Acts.' This Act of chapter 14, 1900, was disallowed on September 11th,
1901, by Your Excellency.
The section 14 above referred to will prejudicially effect the number of Japanese
settlers in the province, as it prohibits employment of any Japanese who are unable to
read the Act in a language of Europe, on any of the works specified under this section,
and besides there is everj- reason to believe that this section is deliberately meant
against the emplojnneut of Japanese people only, as it is not a test of the language of
the province, the English language, for any other Europan language is admitted for
the test.
3rd. Insertion of these clauses in all private Bills which tend to the exclusion of
the employment of Japanese labour, and particularly these clauses which are being added
to the various railway Bills, notably section 4 of the Pacific Xorthern and Omenica
Eailway Company Bill, which discriminates against Japanese in particular.
4th. A resolution moved by a member of British Columbia legislature on the 10th
April and carried on 15th of the same month, as follows : —
' That all contracts, leases and concessions of whatsoever kind entered into, issued
or made by the government or on behalf of the government, provision be made that no
Chinese or Japanese shall be employed in connection therewith.'
Pursunat to this resolution the Japanese consul at Vancouver reports special
licenses are now being issued to which are attached a condition that no Chinese or
Japanese shall be employed thereon.
It seems that this new clause has not been passed by a general Act of the Legisla-
tive Assembly, but the condition has been attached by the authority of section 50 of
chapter 113 of the revised statutes of British Columbia, 1897, in which the Chief
Commissioners of Lands and Works may grant licenses, to be called special licenses,
subject to such conditions, regulations and restrictions as may from time to time be
established by the Lieutenant Gov€»mor in Council .
Whether this be an Act or simply a resolution empowered by an Act, either its
practical effect or with rei;;'rd to its being constitutional or not, but in any case there
is no doubt that it is the legislation which affects the questions of aliens, similar to
that which was at stake in the case of Brydeu vs. the Union Colliery Co. of British
Columbia, in which it was decided by the Privy Council of Great Britain in July, 1890,
that such legislation was distinctly unconstitutional. While this clause is unconstitu-
tional, the Japanese residents in the province will materially suffer from the stei>s taken,
as they are entirely prohibited from being engaged on timbee limits and in work con-
nected with the timber licenses and a large number of them will consequently be thrown
out of work and from their living, which they peacefully enjoyed for a number of
years.
5th. Bill introduced into the British Columbia legislature by the Minister ofMines
of the same provincial government, entitled 'An Act to regulate Immigration into
British Columbia.'
This Bill is practically the same as the one that was introduced at a former session
of the legislature, but was disallowed by Your Excellency's government.
The object of this Act is similar to the former one,inasmuch as it is aimed obvious-
ly and solely at the exclusion of the Japanese from the province since by subsection
if) the Chinese are exempt from the provisions of the Act.
My protest, as stated in the foregoing paragraph, will apply to this last and most
serious one with even stronger force, as should this Bill come into force, the Japanese
86 A\GLO-JAPAyESE COXYENTIOX
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
will be totally deprived of their treaty right of free entry into Canada through their
international highway, both by land and water, and the province of British Columbia
will virtually mean to shut herself against the people of Japan. These high-handed
measures, pursued on the part of the British Columbia legislature, are almost an in-
fringement of the treaty stipulations between the two most friendly x>owers concerned.
Besides, it is manifest that such legislation is far from being constitutional, as the
province is not entitled to have jurisdiction over the questions which involve the wel-
fare and interests of aliens and immigrants, such power wholly resting with the Domin-
ion government. Your Excellency is doubtless aware that the Imperial Japanese gov-
ernment has been voluntarily restricting the emigration of their labourers into Canada
for the past two years, for the sole reason to avoid any friction that might occur by
allowing them to come into British Columbia, and to cause any ill-feeling among a
certain class of people there.
That the fact that the voluntary course thus taken by the Japanese government
has proved so very effective is fully proved by the Royal Commissioners appointed by
Your Excellency's government.
The commissioners state in their report, published as follows: 'Your commis-
sioners fully appreciate the action taken by the government of Japan on August 2, 1900,
whereby the governors of the prefectures of Japan were instructed to prohibit entirely
for the time being the emigration of Japanese labourers for the Dominion of Canada,
&c., &c.
'The course adopted by the Japanese government, if we may without presumption
be jwrmitted to say so, is most opportune, eliminating all causes of friction and irrita-
tion between Canada and Japan, and so favouring a freer trade and intercourse
between the countries than could othei-wise obtain.'
'Nothing further is needed to settle this most difficult question upon a firm basis
than some assurance that the action already taken by the government of Japan b*
revoked.'
'Your commissioners desire to express their earnest hope that in the continuance
of this friendly policy, legislation on this subject by the Canadian govennnent may be
rendered unnecessary.
'While your commissioners thus highly appreciate the measures taken by the gov-
ernment of Japan, and strongly recommend to your government that there should be no
legislation enacted against the immigration of Japanese subjects into Canada. I am at a
loss to find out why the British Columbia government should again pass the legislation
above referred, which was disallowed by Your Excellency only six months ago.
I shall not argue any further on the subject, as all these Bills above referred
to are merely repetitions of the Bills either passed by the British Columbia legisla-
ture in previous sessions, or disallowed by Your Excellency within only the last six
months, and still more as they were so thoroughly and ably argued by my predeces-
sor in office, Hon. S. Shiunger, on previous occassions, that I have very little to add
to his argument.
Before, however, concluding this note of official protest, I have further honour
of requnesting Your Excellency in behalf of His Imperial Japanese Majesty's gov-
ernment, that you will take speedy stops that these obnoxious Bills, particularly that
relating to the Japanese immigration, bo disallowed, before it shall come into force,
as this legislation even for a moment if left in force, will most injuriously interfere
with the free movement of all classes of Japanese in general, the consequence of it
will eventually lead to jeopardizing of trade relations between Japan and Canada,
in which British Columbia is particularly interested.
While I trust that Your Excellency's government should similarly be ready to
use on this occasion the same onlighteunient and impartial policy which has on pre-
vious occasions been extended to the legislation of this kind, they will also take into
considoratibn that on account of the recent treaty, the people of the countries on both
CHINESE AXD JAPAXESE lilillGRATIOy 87
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
sides of the Pacific — the Empire of Japan and Dominion of Canada — should enter
into closer union and have better understanding.
I avail myself of this opportunity to renew to Your Excellency the assurance of
my highest consideration.
TATSZGORO NOSSE.
P. C. 1244— L.
No. 292.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto.
Downing Street, August 2, 1902.
My Lord,— I have the honour to acknowledgie the receipt of Sir H. Strong's
despatch No. 230, of the 2nd July, forwarding a copy of a letter addressed by the
Consular General for Japan in Canada to the Governor General protesting against
the provisions of measure recently enacted by the legislature of the province of
British Columbia as prejudicially affecting the rightJs of Japanese residents in the
province.
2. I shall be glarl to receive a copy of the reply returned to the Consul General
in due course and also copies of the laws referred to in Mr. Nosse's communication.
J. CHAMBERLAIN.
1249 L.
The Japanese Consul General to His Excellency the Governor General.
Imperial Consulate General of Japan,
Montreal, August 11, 1902.
Sm, YoL'R Excellency, — I had tihe honour of addressing to Tour Excellency in
previous despatch, under date of June 26th, which copy is herewith accompanied, in
relation to several Bills and resolutions as per enclosures marked A, B, C and D,
which were passed in the British Columbia legislature during the last session, and
assent was given later on by the Lieuttenant Governor of the said province.
The Imperial Japanese Consul in British Columbia reports that since the laws
above referred to had been enforced in that province, the Japanese people are prac-
tically debarred from the full enjoyment of tiheir rights and privileges under the
vigorous prosecution of such laws and regulations in hands of the provincial officers.
What most affects their rights and interests are the laws practically prohibiting their
free entry into the province and preventing their employment on works carried on
under franchises grantfed by private Act, &c., and it is now proven so very obnoxious
to our countrymen, that they can no longer stand the enforcement of these laws.
I beg leave, therefore, to call Your Excellency's attention to tihe fact that I am
in receipt of a cable instruction from the Imperial Minister of State for Foreign
Affairs in Tokio, that I should appeal to the good-will of your government and ask
them to have these obnoxious laws disallowed, on the ground that the immigration
law recently enacted proves not only disadvantageous to Japanese subjects, but also
contrary to Canadian constitution, and that the Imperial government of Japan are
extremely surprised at such actions being taken in spite of severe restrictions they
had put since 1900 upon immigration of their people into Canada.
i have, in accordance to llie instructions above referred to, the honour of trans-
mitting the earnest: desire of my government to Your Excellency's government, and
at the same time trusting that your government will lose no time in having theao
laws disallowed at an early date.
I avail myself of tlii.? opportunity to renew to Your Excellency the assurano»
of my highest consideration.
TATSZGORO NOSSE.
88 AyOLO-JAPANESE COTiYENTWy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
May 12th, 1902.
The Japanese Consul to the Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works.
Ee Conditions Attached to Timber Licenses Excluding Employment of Oriental
Lahourers.
Dear Sir, — According to a report of the Vancouver Daily Province of Miy 12th,
special permits are being issued to which are attached a special condition as follows:
' This permit is granted on the special condition that no Chinese or Japanese shall
be employed in working the said limits mentioued in this permit.'
The Province goes on to state that this new clause was not passed by the general
Act of the legislative assembly, but must have been ordered by the Lieutenant Gov
ernor in Council, and that the authority for so doing is contained in section 50 of the
Land Act revised statutes and amendments to the end of 1901. I see by refirence to
section 50 of chapter 113 revised statutio's of British Columbia, ISO*^, that the Chief
Commissioner of Lands and Works may grantl licenses to be called special licenses,
subject to such conditions, regulations and restrictions as may from time to time be
established by the Lieutenant Governor in Coinicil. and of which notice may be given
in the Britash Columbia Gazette.
I have looked over the Gazette of May 1st. May 8th. and May 15th. but have
been unable to find the notice referred to, would you kindly furnish ni-^ with the
information as follows : —
1. If tihese conditions regarding the employment of Japanese labourers are now
attached to the timber licenses which are issued?
2. If it is pursuant to the section 50 referred to the chapter 113 revised statute.s
of British Coluniliia, or if a special Act has since been passed by the legislature.
3. If a noticf^ has been given by t;he Lieutenant Governor in Council, could you
please give me the date and page of the Gazette in which the said notice is contained?
Hoping I am not giving you undue trouble, and trust you can favour me with
an early reply.
S. P. SACKO,
Chancellor in charge of His Imperial -Japanese Majesty's Consulafv, Vancouver, B.C.
The Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works of the Province of British Columbia
to Japanese Consul.
Lands and Works Department,
Victoria, May 27. 1902.
Sir, — 1 have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 22nd
instant, and in reply to your inquiry, I beg to say l;hat the condition respecting the
non-employment of Chinese and Japanese, attached to the special licenses to cut
timber, was made pursuant to a resolution of tilio legislative assembly of this pro-
vince now in session.
W. C. WELLS,
Chief Commr. of L. if- W.
Hon. S. P. Sacko.
Chancellor in charge of Hi-: Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consulate,
Victoria, B.C.
CBIXESE AXD JAPAyKSE IMillGRATIoy 89
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
P. C. 1408.
The Cariboo Gold Fields, Limited.
6 and 8, Eastciieap, London, E.C, August, 1902.
Tho Right Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.O., &c.
Premier and President of Privy Council for the Dominion of Canada.
Sir, — The directors of The Cariboo Gold Fields, Limited, a mining company
which holds extensive freehold and leasehold mining properties situated upon and
adjacent to the bed of the well known Williams Creek, and near the town of Barker-
ville, in the Cariboo District of British Columbia; in consequence of very one-sided
legislation in mining matters, enacted by the legislative assembly of the province,
of which the objectionable features are unnecessarily emphasized and enhanced by
the interpretation placed upon the said enactments by the executive of the provincial
Government, acting under the pressure of the labour leagues of the province; find
themselves compelled to approach the goverimient of the Dominion of Canada, of
which your Excellency is the distinguished premier; to beg that the government of
the Dominion will exercise its great influence with the provincial government of
British Columbia to obtain from them in favour of The Cariboo Gold Fields, Limited,
and of all companies having similar aims and interests in the province in regard to
matters not solely affecting these mining companies but also affecting the greatest
interests of a province which is absolutely dependent upon the encouragement of
capital to develop its great mineral wealth ; —
Firstly — A more favourable interpretation of the clauses of Acts which have
been left by the provincial legislature to the discretion of the executive.
Secondly — An effort on the part of the ministers of the executive government
to direct the future legislation of the assembly towards the same end.
The directors of the Cariboo Gold Fields, Limited,, in support of their earnest
request to your Excellency, as the Premier of the Dominion, in asking as above for
some effective protest to the executive government of the province of British
Columbia, beg to lay before you the following facts.
These facts are intended to show the difficulties which are unnecessarily placed
in the way of mining enterprises requiring the assistance of capital, and the griev-
ances from which this company in common with all mining companies in the prov-
ince suffers, and which unless redressed must absolutely prevent in the future, as it
has hindered in the past, the obtaining of any subscription of funds or capital in
London for the development of the natural wealth of the province.
If proper encouragement is given to those who may be willing, if some chance
of success is offered by wise legislation to invest their money in properly thought out
schemes for working the mineral wealth which undoubtedly exists, there will be
ample emploj-ment at remunerative rates for every able bodied man desirous of work
in the province; the only difficulty will be in securing the amount of labour required
at the places where it is needed.
In default of this encouragement no investor will be able to see any advantage
in considering the claims put forward on behalf of the province, and without the
piivate investor, there can be neither companies formed to develop the mines, nor
wages for the casual working miner resident in the province.
It must not be forgotten in this connection, that the province of British Colum-
bia, from its position, does not afford as in other parts of Canada great iields for
agricultural development, but that its chief resources lies in the minerals which are
so widely existent throughout the whole of its northern area, and which remain from
lack of capital untouched, as the risks involved in providing the funds for the needful
working plant require much more inducement than has been ever offered heretofore
90 ANGLO-JAPANESE COSrENTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
by the legislature of the province; for in the greater part of the province these
minerak are not such as can be operated by individual miners, but require for their
development the aid of modem machinery and capital.
Anything done in legislating which prevents the introduction of such capital as
the province needs, can only be considered as absolutely suicidal; it involves the
interests of every resident of the province, and sooner or later the absence of capital
coining into the country must be felt by every individual resident in one way or other.
That the legislative assembly should levy taxes, in every possible form upon
the owners and lessees of mines as contributions towards the revenues of the province
could only be expected, and although the.se taxes are levied to an extent which appears
to the directors to be far in excess of the interests involved, we do not propose to
call Your Excellency's attention now to that grievance. Nor do we desire in this
letter to especially direct Your Excellency's attention to the unsatisfactory tenure
granted to the mines which require the largest outlay; that is to say, 'placer mines,'
as contrasted with the more favourable conditions granted to ' quartz mines,' which
is in itself a great grievance, and much against the interests of the province. A very
moderate amount of expenditure gives a right to a freehold in the latter, whilst that
iirportant privilege is denied to the ' placer miner.'
We cannot help feeling, and expressing our opinion, that it would remedy a great
injustice, and also be to the manifest interests of the province, and also of the
Dominion, if placer miners were placed at the least upon an equality in legislation
with the owners of quartz mines.
The special grievance which we desire at the present time to bring before Your
Excellency is confined to and refers only to the internal working of mines in the
province.
We have to pay both occasionally and annually large amounts to the revenue
of the proivnce, and yet the special legislation made at the assembly, and also
further, the interpretation placed upon that legislation by the executive, hampers the
development and working of our mining property to an extent which may reach the
point of practically confiscating the said property, from the impossibility of working
it imder the prohibitory conditions arbitrarily laid down; under the very mistaken
belief on the part of the legislature, that in the oppressive enactments which shut
out investments in improvements of property in the province, they are acting in the
interests of their constitutents, who are mostly working men.
We beg to recapitulate the statements which were laid before Your Excellency
by our chairman verbally — as to the position of this company, and of the difficulties
it labours under — owing to the obstructive policy of the provincial government.
The Cariboo Gold Fields, Limited, was founded in 1894, the objects of the com-
pany being to work certain placer mines, or claims, situated on William's Greek, in
the District of Cariboo, British Columbia.
Such claims were purchased from vendors, who had acquired them in the usual
manner under leases granted by the Gold Commissioner of the district, on behalf of
the Government of British Columbia; further claims were subsequently purchased,
and others were obtained by the usual metliods of ' pegging out.'
Attached to these claims were ' water records,' mostly prior records from the
respective sources, which gave this company power to take water from various streams
and rivers in the district, and these water records were granted to the company for
a term of ten years.
Soon after the formation of the company — which in the first instance was com-
X;osed of six or seven contributors — it was found that there existed a difficulty in
obtaining money to develop the property, the chief reason being that the title granted
was for so short a period that the capitalists did not consider themselves safe in taking
up the shares.
CHINESE AXD JAPANESE JilMIGRATION 91
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
It was therefore decided upon the advice of people both in British Columbia and
here in London, to apply to the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia for a
special Act extending the i^eriod of our leases, and consolidating the whole property,
inchuiing the water rights, under one lease to be granted under the Act through the
Minister of Mines, by the Lieutenant Governor in Council, for a period of 20 years
from the year 1S96 (being the date of tlie Act), the said lease to be extended for a
further period of 20 years, imder such conditions as to annual rental as might be
fixed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council. The freeholds belonging to the
company were also consolidated as far as regarded current annual working, and
mentioned in the schedule of the said Act.
The Act was obtained (No. 68, dated 6th April, 1896), but a clause was inserted
by the legislature therein to the effect that no Chinese nor Japanese labour should be
employed in or about the said mine, and that the Lieutenant Governor in Council
should fix a penalty to enforce this clause when granting the lease ordered under the
Act. The amount of the penalty was left to the executive.
On accepting the Act — the directors of this company thought that they had to
deal with a legislature who had the interests of all classes in he province at heart,
and that the general interests of a country in which both capital and labour were
Tery deficient would be the main object kept in view, and that as members of our
empire they would avoid acting harshly, or to the prejudice of those who were doing
much to develop the industries of the province committed to their charge, also that if
any penalty were exacted under the Act, it would be one strictly confined to the end
to be attained, that being the prevention of undue competition with the available
white labour by aliens.
We applied for our confirming lease in due course, and to our astonishment we
found that the penalty for employing Chinese or Japanese labour for any work on our
mine was fixed at five dollars per day for each person so employed.
Now were it possible, or had it been possible to employ white labour only, the
company would employ it, although they might feel that they should not be restricted
to it. But unfortunately white labour is not always obtainable in sufficient quantity,
and the company must either employ from time to time, a certain amount of Chinese
labour, or else close their operations.
The pay of a Chinese laboui-er at Barkerville is from $2^ to $3 per day;
the pay of a white labourer fo rsimilar work is from 3J to $4 per day. and the value
of the work done by the white labourer is considered to be much better on the
average than that done by the Chinese; there is therefore very little temptation to
the manager of a mine to engage Chinese labour if he can obtain white labour freely ;
the difference in intrinsic value would be amply covered by about 50 cents per day,
per man, for the lower class of work ; whilst for the higher class of work the manager
would always engage white labour by preference, even at still higher rates of pay if
he could get it of the proper quality, or perhaps even if he could get it at all.
Now, if we accept the lease with the penalty attached of paying $5 per day per
Head for every Chinese labourer employed, we shall have to pay $3 wages, plus $5
penalty, making eight dollars per man jyer day, whenever we are obligjed to employ
Chinese labour because we are unable to obtain white labour for imperative work ;
for we have already offered only to employ Chinese labour when the Gold Commissioner
certified that it was a necessity. We have also 'offered to pay a penalty of fifty cents,
(50 cents) per head per day for each Chinese labourer employed. This would be more
than sufficient to deter any manager from employing Chinese labour if white labour
were attainable, as he would lose the benefit of the better work done by white labour
without any benefit in the pay-roll.
If we are compelled to pay the penalty of five dollars per head per day for
Chinese labour when we are unable to find white labour, making about eight dollars
92 ASGLO-JAPAyESE coyvEXTioy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
per day for every man so employed, aud solely because we cannot obtain white labour,
we must stop operations.
If we stop operations, we lose our leases, or run the risk of losing them.
Up to the present we have refused to accept the lease with a greater penalty than
50 cents per head per day; although we have duly and regularly paid to the govern-
ment the enhanced annual rental due under the Act in respect of our leases.
We are now informed that we must either accept the lease as drawn, or that our
property on which we have expended about 100,000 pounds must pass from us.
We have made various suggestions to the Provincial Government through either
the Minister of Mines, the Attorney General, or through other members of the Minis-
try, asking for a reduction of the penalty of $5, — and have ofiered as before mention-
ed, to accept a fine equivalent to the difference between white labour and Chinese
labour.
We have approached various members of the executive government from time to
time. They are so afraid that by doing their duty to the real interests of the pro-
vince, that they may lose their seats in the legislature, that they prefer to suffer the
country to sustain a permanent injury, and to stop progress and development, rather
than to risk their individual interests, by incurring the enmity of the labour leagues,
although the position taken by the said labour leagues is unreasonable and injurious
to the welfare of the country.
To give Tour Excellency one instance only to show what a great detriment to
the interests of the Province this matter may prove ; we would mention that this com-
pany alone has a project on foot for the working and development of another portion
of our property, fhrouph a subsidiary company where an expenditure of about 50,000
pounds in the first instance would be made; but this question of the non-employment
of t'hinese labour stands in the way, all of these connected with our company having
determined that until the removal of the Tsoycott' they will not proceed further.
Our Chairman adds that from his own personal knowledge the question is pre-
venting the influx of Capital into the Province.
As men of business we know the risks which attach to any mining enterprise;
those risks we are prepared to take, but we cannot continue our business unless we
have the support of those in authority.
The directors of the Cariboo Gold Fieldg, Limited, for the reasons enumerated
above beg Your Excellency, as the Premier for the Dominion of Canada to exercise
on behalf of your Government the great influence at your command with the gnern-
ment of the province of British Columbia, to obtain a redress for this company of
the grievances above-mentioned.
For the Cariboo Gold Fields Limited,
EENEST COLLINS,
Chairman of the Board.
WM. BAMFIELi) SMllll.
Secretary.
P. C. 1663.
Imperial Consilate General of Japan for the Dominion of Canada.
Montreal, Que., November 1st, 1902.
Right Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Lairier, G.C.M.G., P.C &c..
Premier of the Dominion of Canada.
Dear Sir, — It has now elapsed several months since I had the honour of addres-
sing His Excellency the Governor General protestang against several bills passed by
the British Columlija legislatures during last session and which arc since then
I
CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 93
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
rigidly enforced by the local government! of the said province of all Japanese people
who are coming into that province.
I have not, however, been informed of any sfieps taken by the Dominion Gov-
ernment so far toward the disallowance of the said bills. The Imperial government
of Japan is anxious to have the said restrictions upon her people in British Colum-
bia be removed at an early date. As I had t:he honour of stating to you at oui
iast interview the Government of Japan ask no more than fair and just treatment of
her people in the hand of her great friendly neighbor across the Pacific — Canada, they
are quite agreeable tJj the recommendation, proposed by the Royal Commission in
their report and you are alread.v aware of the fact that the Government of Japan has
been for last few years taking a voluntary course iu restricting her people to come to
British Columbia.
I will have the honour of calling upon you before very long to convey to you the
earnest wishes of the Government of Japan on the matter referred to.
TAT8ZG0R0 NOSSE.
1731.
Beport of the Eonourahle the Minister of Justice, approved hy His Excellency the
Governor General in Council on the 5th December, 1902.
Department of Justice, Ottawa, 14th Nov., 1902.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has the honour to submit his report on the following statutes of
the legislature of British Columbia, passed during the second year of His Majesty's
reign (1902), and received by the Secretary of State for Canada on the 29tb day jf
September last :
Chapter 34, ' An Act to regulate Immigration into British Columbia.'
Chapter 38, ' An Act relating to the employment on works carried on under fran-
chises granted by Private Acts.'
Chapter 48, ' An Act to further amend the " Coal Mines Regulation Act." '
Chapter 34 is a re-enactment of Chapter 11, 64 Victoria, of the Statutes of
British Columbia.
Chapter JS is a re-enactment of Chapter 14, 64 Victoria, of the Statutes of
British Columbia.
These statutes as originally enacted were disallowed by order of Tour Excellency
'in Council of 11th September, 1901, for the reasons stated therein, and the reason*
stated in the report of the Minister of Justice of 5th January, 1901.
Upon the same grounds the undersigned considers that these statutes as now
reenacted should be disallowed.
Chapter 48 amends the Coal Mines Regulation Act, Revised Statutes, 1897, by
repealing rule 34 of section 82, and substituting therefor a rule in all respects the
same, except that the substituted rule expressly excludes Japanese from being
appointed to or occupying the positions therein mentioned. This enactment, in so
far as it affects Japanese, either as aliens or as naturalized British subjects, isultra
vires under the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, in the case
o'^ the Union Colliery Company of British Columbia vs. Bryden, 1889, Appeal Cases,
580. It is also an example of discriminating legislation such as has been on several
occasions during the last few years disallowed by Your Excellency's Government, as
incompetent to a provincial legislature or upon grounds of public policy. The
reasons which prevail for the disallowance of such measures are well understood.
94 AXGLO-JAPA^'ESE COyrEXTIOS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The undersigned does not consider that any useful purpose would be served by
correspondence with regard to these statutes, and he recommends that each of them
b^ disallowed.
Respectfully submitted,
C. FITZPATEl'CK,
Minister of Justice.
1732.
Proclamation Disallowing Chapter S^.
AT THE GOTERKMEST HOUSE AT OTTAWA.
Friday, the 5th day of December, 1902.
Present :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with the
Legislative Assembly of that province, did on the 21st day of June, 1902, pass an Act,
which has been transmitted, chaptered 34, and intituled ' An Act to regulate Immigra-
tion into British Columbia.'
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Coimcil,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommending that the said Act
be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor in Council has this day been pleased to declare bis dis-
allowance of the said Act, and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott, Earl of Jlinto, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia,
en the 21st day of June, 1902, chaptered 3-f, intituled ' An Act to regulate Immigra-
tion into British Columbia," was received by me on the 29th day of September, 1902.
Given under my hand and seal at Ottawa this fit"t;h day of December, 1902.
MINTO.
1733.
Proclamation Disallowing Chapter 3S.
AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA.
Friday, the 5th day of December, 1902.
Present :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with the
Legislative Assembly of that province, did on the 21st day of June. 1902 pass an Act
which has been transmitted, chaptered 38, and intituled ' An Act relating to the
employment on works carried on under Franchise granted by Private Acts.'
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 95
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor Greneral in Council,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommending that the said Act
be disallowed.
The Governor General in Council has thereupon this day been pleased to declare
his disallowance of the said Act, and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, and all
other persons whom it may concern, are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott, Earl of Miuto, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act p;is.<e(l by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia on
the 21st day of June, 1902, chaptered 38, intituled ' An Act relating to the employ-
ment on works carried on under Franchises granted by Private Acts,' was received
by me on the 29th day of September, 1902.
Given under my hand and seal at Ottawa this fifth day of December, 1902.
MINTO.
1734.
MINTO.
Proclamation Disallowing Chapter Ji8.
AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA.
Friday, the 5th day of December, 1902.
Present :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with the
Legislative Assembly of that province, did on the 21st day of June, pass an Act
which has be^n transmitted, chaptered 48, and intituled ' An Act to further amend
the Coal Mines Regulation Act.'
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Council,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommending that the said Act
should be disallowed.
The Governor General in Council has thereupon this day been pleased to declare
his disallowance of the said Act, and the same i? hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern, are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerh of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott, Earl of Miuto, Governor Gieneral of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia, on
the 21st day of June, 1902 .chaptered 48, and intituled ' An Act to further amend the
Coal Mines Regulation Act,'was received by me on the 29th day of September, 1902.
Given under my hand and seal at Ottawa this fifth day of December, 1902.
MINTO.
96 AXGLo-JAPAyESE coyrEXTioy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
P. C. 1356— L.
Imperial Consulate GEXEriAL o? Japax,
Montreal. 20th December, 1902.
His Excellency the Governor General.
SiRj Your Excellency, — I have the honour of informing Your Excellency that I
have this day received a cablegram from His Excellency the Baron Komura, His Im-
perial Majesty's Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, instructing nie to convey to
Your Excellency's Government in the name of the Imperial Government of Japan,
their highest appreciation of the action taken by the Canadian Government upon the
British Columbia legislation against Japanese subjects and to express to your govern-
ment their earnest wish that the most friendly relations between Japan and Canadn
will continue to the best advantage of both nations concerned.
TATSZGOKO NOSSE.
Imperl\l Coxsul.\te General of Japan,
For the Dominion of Canad.\,
Montreal, Jan. 24, 1903
To the Eight Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C.
Dear Sir, — Upon receipt of a cable instruction from Baron Komura, Japanese
Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, during your absence from Ottawa to the
south of tihe United States, I had the honour of addressing to Lord iviinto, the Gov-
ernor General, transmitting to his Excellency the highest appreciation of the Im-
perial Japanese Government on the action taken by the Canadian Government; upon
the British Columbia legislation.
I have this day received another instruction from Baron Komura instructing
me to convey his sincere thanks to you and further to express to you his personal
appreciation of your good and friendly feeling towards his countrym-n in Canada.
With this purpose I am coming to Ottawa next Monday and I wish you would
be good enough to receive me at your convenience, as I am to stiy iu the Capit?al
for a few days.
TATSZGOKO NOSSE.
Ottawa. 30th January. 1903
Mr. T. G. NosSE,
Imperial Japanese Consul,
Montreal.
Dear Mr. Nossfi, — I enclose a statement which I have just received from the
Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce wit'h regard to Japanese immigration tc
Canada. The total number from July, 1901 to the end of June, 1902, is 563. Ac-
cording to my information this number is larger than was authorized by the nev
legislation adopted lately by the Japanese Government, Would you kindly explair
to me how this was done? I would be obliged if .vou would also send me an officiaJ
statement giving the number of Japanese who are allowed to immigrate each year,
since the passing of the new legislation above referred to.
WILFRID LAURTEB
CHIXESE AXD JAPAXESE IMMIGRATION' 97
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
I.Ml'KlilAI. ( D.NSLI.ATi: GkNEKAL OF J.VPAX FOR THE DOMINION OF OaNADA.
MoNTRKAL, Srd February, 1903.
The Right Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Lalrier^ Ottawa.
1>KAR Sir, — In answer to your inquiry as to why so large a number of Japanese
were allowed to emigrate to Canada during the past one year or .so. I beg to say that
the Japanese government has been restricting for' more than last two years the
i^s■uing of new passports to all intending immigrants to Canada. It is total and
absolute restriction, and there is nut any limited number allowe 1 for each year as
you have referred.
The only Japanese who are allowed to leave Japan under the present system
for Canada are'—
1. Those who hold the old passports and also the eertdficates of the Japanese
consul at Vancouver certifying that they are residents in Canada and only return-
ing to Canada.
2. The families of Japanese residents in Canada coming out to them, upon
approval of .Japanese consul at Vancouver
3. The merchants and students duly qualified.
As to the unusually large number in the months of Hay and June. 1902, Hon.
Mr. Morikawa, Japanese consul at Vancouver, B.C., wired to me this morning in
answer t;o my telegraphic inquiry, saying that ' Those who landed both at Victoria
and Vancouver in these two months were not destined for Canada, but left for
Tacoma, Seattle and San Francisco after staying a day or two. Those who remained
ir this province did not number more than twentv. and are only the old residents,
who went to Japan on temporary visit.'
I ma.v venture to explain a few facts that on account of the better facilities
given by the C. P. R. steamers quite a large niimber of Japanese are coming by the
Slid steamers en route to the United States ports, but none of them should carry
pa.ssports for Canada, but all for the United States. The United States immigra-
tion agents stationed both at Victoria and Vancouver will suppl.v you with a com-
plete list of .Japanese who have left British Columbia for the United States, and
iLis list will show you a very considerable number leaving the province across the
boundary, leaving a very small surplus in British Columbia.
The total number of Japanese residents in British Columbia were, according
to the report prepared by the Japanese Consul at Vancouver, under date of Decem-
ber .".1. IPOl, 2,722, divided up as frllows:—
Vancouver 671
Victoria 130
Xew Westminster 318
Steveston 417
Nanaimo 36
Skeena River 114
Kootengy .54
Union ilines 199
Salt Springs, &c 40
Cariboo 69
ChemainiLs 83
Eivers Inlet 22
C. P. R. rouCe 58
B. C. ranches 403
Mount Sieea 49
Dawson 53
2,722
74b— 7
98 AyGLO-JAPAXEsE COyTEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
I am not contradicting the validity of your census, but the care should be
sometimes taken by the census officers in not mixing both Japanese and Chinese,
The Chinese, since the war of 1894, and consequent; defeat by the Japanes?, have
assumed, a great many of them, English customs, and pretended to be the Japanese.
For an instance, there is a ' Japanese laundry ' in this city of Montreal, while there
is none of my countrymen engaged in that trade.
TUTZSGORO XOSSE,
His Imperial Majesty's Consul General.
Ottawa, February 5, 1903-
Mr. T. XossE.
Imperial Consul General,
Montreal.
Dear Mr. Xosse, — I have your favour of the 3rd instant, for which I tender you my sin-
cere thanks. I would be obliged, however, if you would kindly add to the information
it conveyed to me. the regulations of your government as to the number of Japanese
allowed every year to emigrate from Japan to Canada. This point is not covered by
your letter.
WILFRID LAURIER.
Imperial Cossul.\te General of Japan for the Domikiox of Canada,
Montreal, February 5, 1903.
The Eight Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
Primo Minister of Canada, &c., &c., ifcc.
Ottawa.
Dear Sm, — In answer to my cablegram to His Excellency Baron Tvomura. Min-
isrer of State for Foreign Affairs, informing him of Hon. Sydney Fisher's visit to
Japan, representing the Canadian government at the National Exhibition to be held
at Osaka, Japan, his lordship sent me a cablegram this morning instructing me to
transmit to you, in the name of His Imperial Japanese government, his highest appre-
ciation of the good will shown to his country by the Canadian government and also'
that he deems his country is highly honoured with the visit of a cabinet minister of
a great friendly nation across the Pacific and that he wishes to assure your govern-
ment that Hon. Sydney Fisher will receive every attention and courtesy from the
Japanese government during his stay in the empire.
TATSZGOEO XOSSE,
IMPERIAL CONSUL.\TE GENERAL OF JAPAN FOR THE DOMINION OF CANADA.
Montreal, February 6, 1903.
The Right Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir, — I'n answer to your favour of yesterday's date, referring to the nimibor
of Japanese allowed to emigrate each year from Japan to Canada, I beg leave to
state that prior to the fall of 1900, the number of new passports issued to the Japan-
ese emigrants for Canada used to be about fifty each month, but since then the
Japanese Government have wholly stopped the issuance of new passports to any
ir.tending emigrants for Canada, under a provision of the Emigration Protection
Law, and no passports are, therefore issued at present to the new emigrants, oxce|it
to the merchants, students and tourists duly qualified. It is therefore practically
the total restriction, on the part of Japanese Government, to the emigration of thoi'-
people to Canada. Those who are now arriving in British Columbia sliould be cm
CHIXESE ASn JAPAyESE IMMIGRATION 99
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
transit to the United States or holders of the old passports properly endorsed by the
Japanese Consul at Vancouver (certifying that they are the residents in Canada).
The system is most rigidly observed there in Japan as every passenger is examined
on board of the steamer prior to her departure, and those who are found without
I)8ssports are ordered back on shore by the police authorities imder the penalty of
heavy fines.
I may add that Hon. Mr. S. Morikawa, Japanese Consul at Vancouver, wired
me this morning that according to the report furnished him by the United State.s
Immigration Agent there were 895 Japanese who left British Columbia during last
fiscal year^from July, 1901, to June, 1902. This is practically more than the
arrivals of Japanese during that period. It is the fact that many hundreds of Japan-
ese in British Columbia are leaving there for the United States on account of the
local agitation and oppressive measures adopted against our people by both the pro-
vincial and municipal authorities.
TATSZGOEO XOSSE.
Montreal, 30th March, 1903.
Eight Hon. Sir Wilfrid Lai'rier,
Premier and President of the Council.
Ottawa.
In answer to my cablegram to the Imperial Japanese Government advising them
to continue the policy of restricting their people immigrating in any large number into
British Columbia, I have received a cable instruction to the effect that I have to give
your government the renewed assurances that the Japanese government are not
desirous of forcing their people into British Columbia against the wish of the prov-
ince, and that they are willing to enter into an agreement with your government by
which they may bind themselves, if their present policy of rigid restriction is not
deemed satisfactory to your go\'emment.
T. XOSSE,
Consul General of Japan.
1497 L.
The Japanese Consul General to His Excellency the Governor General of Canada.
Imperul Consulate General, Montreal, May 20th, 1903.
His Excellency the Eight Honouralle Earl of MintOj Governor General of Canada,
&c., i&c., &c.
Sir. Your Excellency, — Under instruction of His Imperial Japanese Majesty's
government. I have the honour of calling Tour Excellency's attention to the following
Bills that were passed by the British Columbia Legislative Assembly at present in
session, and that have become the law, being assented by the Lieutenant Governor of
the province, namely: — •
1. The Act intituled : 'An Act to regulate Immigration into British Columbia.'
2. The Act intituled : 'An Act relating to the employment on works carried on
under franchises granted by private Acts.'
The two Acts are practically the re-enactment of that which were disallowed by
Your Excellency's Order in Council twice in succession in 1901 and 1902.
Holding the same view as argued in my despatches of last year under similar cir-
cumstances, I have again the honour of drawing your attention to the fact that th«
Acts referred to are utterly unconstitutional,- and unquestionably meant to pro
hibit the Japanese subjects from residing iu and entering British Columbia.
74b— 7i
100 ANGLO-JAPJ.KESE CONTENTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190&
Your Excellency is doubtless aware that such legislation as these, with respect to
the aliens, is incompetent to a provincial legislature, as only the Dominion Parliament
of Canada is empowered to treat upon the subject, and that the object of enactment
of these Acts is aimed obviously and solely at the exclusion of the Japanese people
from the province in question, since in the case of ' Immigration Law' the Chinese are
exempt by the payment of $800, as provided in section 3, subsection F; and again in
the case of ' The Employment on Works carried on under Franchise,' there is an-
other example of strong and deliberate manifestaion of discrimmination against the
Japanese residents, as the so-called language test does not include the language of
Japan, but only those of the European countries, while none of these languages ex-
cept the English, being spoken in the province in general'.
Knowing your government are fully posted on the question and trusting that they
will take measures nothing but fair and just, I need hardly any further argument.
but to request that Your Excellency's government will have these obnoxious Acts dis-
allowed at an early date, as the enforcement even for a short period would seriously
affect the interest and welfare of the Japanese subjects and the full enjoyment of their
rights and privileges entitled by the treaty stipulations would be wrongfully denied
by the local authorities.
T. NOSSE.
His Imperial Majesty's Consul General for the Dominion of Canada.
P. C. 1263.
lirPERiAL Consulate General of Japan for the Dojiinion of Canada.
Montreal, July 13, 1903.
The Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
Prime Minister of Canada, &c., &c.
Ottawa.
Dear Sir, — In answer to my cable inquiries to Baron Komura, Minister of State
for Foreign Affairs, re the number of passports issued to Japanese, destined for Can-
ada, His Excellency cabled to me this moniing to the following effect:
' New passports issued to the Japanese subjects of all descriptions, including
students, merchants, emigrants and their families, for Canada for last three years
were as follows : — '
1901 165
1902 185
1903 (four months) 87
The Consul Morikawa at Vancouver, B.C., has also furnished me with full par-
ticulars, in answer to my telegraphic inquiries, as follows: —
' The number of Japanese passengers entering British Columbia supplied by the
Dominion Customs of Canada is very nearly correct, although I am sorry to say that
there was no distinction made whether these passengers were the old residents coming
back or newcomers, or who were merely on transit, staying here only for a few days,
before proceeding for their proper destination (the United States).
Out of total number of Japanese passengers landing here by every steamer one-
third is bound for the States, the balance, two-thirds, made up of the old residents.
their wives and children and a small number of students and merchants are only those
who are really meant to stay in the province or elsewhere in Canada. No comparison
can well be established with the first six months of a year and the last six months, for
this reason that there is in the last six months of a year, a greater number of Jap-
anese going over to Japan and a smaller number coming back here, while in the first
six months the case is quite reverse.
I
CBINESB AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 101
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
It ought to be borue in mind that a corresponding number of Japnese who are
going back in Japan every winter must be expected to be back again here in the suc-
ceeding spring, either singly or bringing their families with them, as the circum-
Etanees might be.
In the case of a Japanese resident leaving for Japan he is to be provided with a
certificate of residence by this Consulate, to enable him to be back again here. The
total number of the certificates issued were,
1902 (first si.x months) 307
1902 (last " ) 349
656
1903 (first " ) 384
There is again an increasing tendency amongst the Japanese here that they find
themselves more inclined to settle down in Canada, and thereby the necessity of
bringing over their wives to make permanent residences here and to have their child-
ren receive English education. This very fact may necessarily add one or two per-
sons more to an old resident, when he is coming back.
To give an idea how the number of Japanese arrivals supplied by the immigra-
tion officers is grossly exaggerated and is found insufficient to give any evidences, I
may refer to the following eases of SS. Empress of Japan and other steamers, which
arrived here in June.
Empress of Japan — ' .'
On transit 34
Students 4 ,
Old residents 28 -
Their wives 11
Passed language exams 7
84
Biojin —
Old resident 3
lyo—
Old residents 9
Athenion —
On transit 15
Old residents 12
Their wives 7
Children 2
Passed exams 1
37
Shawmut —
On transit 22
Old residents 5
27
102 AyOLO-JAPANESE CONYENTWy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1903
Empress of China —
On transit , 10
Old residents 16
Their wives 4
Children 6
Passed exams 2
Merchants 3
41
The total number of 201 for the mnifh of June may be thus d;vid-d: —
On transit 81
Old residents 73
Their wives 22
Children 8
Merchants 3
Students 4
Passed exams 10
201
Thus, out of 201, for instance, only 10 or 15 per cent may be new-comers who
hold the new passports. The officer here in charge of tilie immigration shotild there-
fore report this fact to their superiors, instead of representing the whole number
to have been new-comers. It must again be remembered that! among these old resi-
dents there are many who are naturalized citizens of Canada.
There are no Japanese coming from the Hawaiian Islands ; a great number of
Japanese keep on coming from and going to the United Sates across the boundary.
The table prepared by the United States immigration agent here shows the number
of the Japanese who left for the States in 1901 to be 1,706. and in 1902 to be 895.
These great numbers of departures the British Columbia ufficors df> not lake trouble
of deducting from the total annual arrivals, thereby tlie alleged inilux of our people
in this province. I may also add that these great numbe*g of Japanese who keep
going backward and forward across the international boundaries are all naturalized
citdzens of Canada, who stay during winter in the Stales for tlnnr work.'
I have the honour of assuring you once again that the Japanese government is
not disposed to issue the passports any more than necessary. Any number of new
permits under 200 per annum cannot be said vo be very large, considering the facti
that in this number not only the wives and childre'i of the c Id residents, but aUo
merchants and students, and even the consul and his fajniiy. are included.
I trust that your fair and impartial judgment will at once approve the above
statement supplied by Mr. Consul Morikawa that' neither the government of Japan
nor their people have ever taken the advantage of the disallowance, as alleged to
have been so by the British Columbia immigration officers.
TATSZGORO NOSSE,
His Imperial Japanese Majesfji's Consxtl General.
P. C. 1264.
IMPERIAL CONSULATE GENERAL OF JAPAN FOR THE DOMINION OF CANADA.
MoNTREAi,, July 20, 1903.
The Right Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Lalrier, &c., &c., &e.,
Ottawa, Ont.
Df.ar Sir, — I have the pleasure of forwarding to yon herewith enclosed n list of
Japanese passengers, landed in British Columbia during the month of June, with
CHINESE AXD JAPAXESE IiIMrGRATrO\
103
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
the descriptions and destinations of these passengers, prepared by Mr. Consul Mori-
kawa, of Vancouver, B.C. He states 211 arrivals are unusually large niunbers, as
there were 83 old residents who came back from their visits in Japan to resume their
business on tisheries in the province and 81 on transit to the United States and even
til Mexico. He attributes this arrival of a large number of travellers to the cheap
rates of fares on the part of the Canadian Pacific Railway steamers, as the Japanese
lines carried only but 12. He also says that actual new arrivals for the month were
but 47 including 22 wives, 8 children, 3 merchants, 4 students and 10 who passed the
1,'inguage test, and who were labourers.
TATSZGORO NOSSE,
H.I.J.M. Consul General.
LIST OF .VRRIVALS OF JAPA.VESE P.\SSENGERS I.V JU.\E, 1903.
Steamer3.
Empress
of
Japan.
Riojin.
lyo.
Athenian.
Empress
of
China.
Shawmut.
Total.
Date
2nd
3rd
16th
21st
23rd
27th
38
3
9
12
16
5
83
11
0
0
7
4
0
Their children
0
0
0
2
6
0
g
34
0
0
15
10
22
81
0
0
0
0
3
0
3
Students
4
0
0
0
0
0
4
Passed the test
7
0
0
1
2
0
10
Total
94
3
9
37
41
27
211
63 M.
The Japanese Consul General to His Excellency the Governor General of Canada.
Imperul Consul.^te General of Jap.\n, for the Dominion of Canada,
26th February, 1904.
Bight Honourable the Earl of Minto, Governor General of Canada:
Sir, Your Excellencv, — 1' have the honour of calling Your Excellency' attention
to my previous despatch under date of the 20th May, 1903, in which I presented my
protest under the instruction of His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Minister of State
foi Foreign Affairs, against the following Acts, enacted by the British Columbia
legislature during their session of 1903, namely (1) An Act to Regulate Immigra-
tioa into British Columbia. (2) An Act relating to the employment on works carried
104 AyOLOJAPAyESE COyTEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ou under franchises granted by Private Acts, (3) An Act relating to the Coal Mine
litgiilations.
In my former despatch I had the honour of asking Tour Excellency's govern-
ment that they would take the earliest measures to have these Acts disallowed, as
their existence would lead to the constant irritation and annoyance to our most
friendly relations now existing between Japan and Canada. It is almost a year since
these acts had beea enacted and had fully come into force in British Columbia, but I
greatly regret to note that they have not yet been disallowed, although the time limit
for such disallowance may very soon expire.
I have the honour of drawing Your Excellency's attention to the fact that
while the said Acts of 1903 still remain in force, the British Columbia legislature ou
the 9th instant enacted another Act, entitled : An Act to Regulate Immigration into
British Columbia.' This Act is quite identical with that of 1903 in every way, only
difference in the new Act being much more rigid and severe in the execution and
enforcement of the law.
The fact that this new Act being enacted solely against the Japanese people, as
it has always been so is indisputable, and can be proven by several speeches made dur-
ing the debate by the members of the British Columbia legislature during last ses-
sion, as shown in the copy of a ' Hansard,' which is herewith anexed. as numer one.
I see no reason why the British Columbia Legislature is so very persistent in
taking such a high-handed and imfriendly measures against the Japanese people, and
why this Act should be tolerated to any length of time, without being disallowed.
Your Excellency's government, doubtless, should be aware of the Japanese govern-
ment enforcing her voluntary restrictions on her people emigrating to British Colum-
bia, as your Prime Minister has been supplied from time, to time wi'th tlie^ list of
Japanese arrivals in that province. The copies of these tables are herewith annexed
as numbers two and three. According to these tables, Your Excelleucy will note that
the passports issued by the Japanese government were in 1901, 165; 1902, 165; 1903
(four months), 97; and the total numbers of Japanese people landed during last
seven months, ending in December, 1903, in British Columbia, were 1,425, but those
who remained in that province were only 217, including old residents and their wives
and children, a great majority being on their way to the United States. The num-
bers shown ou the tables can further be proven by the statements made by the Brit
i.~h Columbia provincial immigration officers before the special committee appointed
to investigate the violation of the Immigration Act held last month at Victoria. The
officer stated that ' during 1903 about 95 per cent of the Japanese having passports
had them for the United States.' Another officer made a statement that two-thirds or
90 per cent of the Japanese who entered, left the province. These self-evidence on
the part of the British Columbia government will show that only five to ten per cent
of whole number of the Japanese people landed there, remained in the province, which
can neither be said to be a large influx, nor to be a large addition to already fast
decreasing Japanese population in British Columbia.
I do not doubt for a moment that Your Excellency's government will take th«
earliest measures to have both Acts of 1903 and 1904 disallowed at the same time, as
you are well aware that these Acts are solely aimed at a discrimination against the
Japanese people, and the enforcement, therefore, of these laws, especially that of 1904,
will seriously affect: the interest and dignity of our people.
I avail myself of this opportunity to renew to Your Excellency the assurances of
my highest consideraation.
TATSZGORO XOSSE,
Consul General for JapOn.
CHIXESE AXD JAI'AXK.sE IMMlilUAIH):.!
105
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
On the second reiuling of the Act to regulate inimierrntion into British Cohimbia,
the Attorney (leneriil snid thiit tliis Act was intended to prevent the introduction of
almost a direct copy of the Xatal Act. By means of it he believed the province
■wonld have in its hands the power to exclude all classes of undesirable immigration.
Mr. J. A. Macdonald asked with respect to the constitutionality of the Act. He
Iclieved tliat similar Acts had been held to be unconstitutional.
The Attorney General said that the Dominion authorities had no power to dis-
allow becau^:l■ a Hill was unconstitutional. It might be disallowed if contrary to the
policy of the Dominion authorities.
Mr. Macdonald asked the Attorney General if he had considered whether the Act
was constitutional or not.
The Attorney General said he had not the least doubt about it.
The Bill was then comniittecd with J. R. Brown in the chair.
Mr. Paterson pointed out that this Act would debar persons from Eastern Can-
ada from coming- into t'Jiis province if they could not read. He considered it was a
disgrace that a native-born Canadian, who, through misfortune, was unable to read
and write, should be debarred from entering.
The Attorney General held that it was impossible to find 500 men in Canada who
could not read or write.
An amendment introduced by Mr. Evans, excluding residents of the Dominion of
Canada from the operation of the Act, was carried.
On the sections making it a penalty for the master of a vessel bringing in prohi-
bited immigrants. Mr. Mclnnes pointed out that the government was but paving the
way for disallowance. It should be made broad so as to apply to persons coming in
from every direction, and then it could not be said to be pointed directly at Japanese.
The Japanese were the only objectionable class coming in by steamer to whom this
would apply. Advantage might be taken for this to disallow the Act.
The Attorney General said that the government would put it through in this form
and this alone.
Mr. Mclnnes said upon the heads of the government ■would fall the responsibility.
He wanted to go on record on this matter.
Mr. J. Oliver, before the Act was passed, proposed that provision be made to allow
of particular friends of the government making arrangements for their friends cal-
lecting a fee of $2 for immigrants entering.
The Bill was reported.
No. 2.
Actual nmnber of passports issued by the Japanese government te> their people,
who left for Canada in the years 1901,1902 and 190.3:—
uni.
It 02.
If 03 (4 Months.)
Male.
Female.
1
Male. ' Female.
Male.
Female.
15
39
46
25
3
• 0
1
21
4
1
16
55
47
29
4
0
(!
24
3
1
o
27
26
17
0
0
1
10
13
0
138
27
141 1 34
73
24
Totals
1
Bo
1
So
9
'
The families include wives and children of the old resident in British Columbia.
106 ANGLO-JAPAlfESE COyVEXTlOy '
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The professionals include all kinds of men of professions, such as physicians,
teachers, clergymen, agriculturists, chemists. &c., and their assistants and those who
make studies of the same.
No. 3.
Numbers of arrivals of Japanese passengers in British Columbia during the seven
months from June to December, 1903: Merchants, 7; travellers, 1.20S; students. 12;
old residents and families, 188. passed test, 10; total, 1,425.
IMPERIAL COXSILATE GENERAL OF JAPAN FOR THE DOMI.NIOX OF CANADA.
Montreal, March 19, 1904.
The Eight Honourable
Sir Wilfrid LAiBfER. kc &c., &c.,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir, — You are already aware that I have sent to His Excellency the Gov-
ernor General an official protest against the re-enactment of British Columbia Immi-
gration Act and at the meantime asking him that his Government will take prompt
steps to have the said Act be disallowed together with that of last year — 1903.
My personal explanation to you at our last interview. I trust have convinced
you that the Japanese Government has heen faithful to her promises and the people
in British Columbia have no real cause of agitation.
The Japanese Government is very anxious, while depending upon the friendl.v
attitude of your Govermnent toward Japan, to know if the earliest steps coidd be
taken to disallow the said Acts, the very existence of which appears to be the onl.v
barrier to the friendly and cordial relations between the two nations concerned, while
both of which are so very eager to promote commercial relations between themselves,
and there is very strong fact of steady growth of the trade.
T. XOSSE.
942.
BRITISH C0LUMBL\. — 3 EDWARD VII., 1903. ItH SESSION — 9TH LEGISLATURE.
Eeport of the Honourable the Minister of Justice, approved by His Excellency the
Governor General in Council on the 2Srd March, lOOJ/.
Department of Jistice, Ottaw.v, June 5, 1903.
To His Excellency ike Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has had under consideration an Act of the legislature of the
province of British Columbia, passed at the last session thereof, and assente<l to by
the Lieutenant Governor on May 4, 1903, intituled : ' An Act relating to the era-
I)loyment on works carrietl on under franchises granted by private Acts." the same
having been received by the Secretar.v of State for Canada on May 15, last.
The undersigned observes that this Act corresjxinds with chapter 38 of the
British Columbia statutes. 1902, bearing the same title which was disallowed b.v order
of Your Excellency in Council ,approve<l on 5th December, 1902. A similar Act
passed in the year 1901 was disallowed by order of Your Excellenc.v in Council on
11th September. 1901.
Upon the grounds stated for the disallowance of the previous corresponding Act.'',
the undersigned recommends that the Act now in question be disallowed.
Respectfully submitted,
C. FLTZPATRICK,
Minlslfr of Justice.
CHINESE AyD jM'.ixi:si: nnnauATnty 107
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
354.
licpoi-l of ihe Ilonourahle (he Minister of Justicr, approved hti His Excellency the
Governor General in Council on the 23rd and 2^fh March. lOOJf.
Department ok Jistice, Ottawa. 1st October, 1903.
To His E.rcellencii Ihe Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has had under consideration the following Acts of the legisla-
ture of the province of British Columbia, passed at the last session thereof, viz.: —
Chapter 12, intituled: 'An Act to regulate immigration into British Columbia.'
Chapter 14, intituled: 'An Act relating to the employment on works carried on
under franchises granted by private Acts;' and
Chapter 17, intituled : ' An Act further to amend the Coal ilines Regulation Act.'
These Acts correspond with chapters o4. 38 and 48, bearing the same titles,
which were disallowed on the report of tlu> undersigned of 14th November. iftO-:?. ap-
proved by Your Excellency on 5th Deceml>er. 1902.
Upon the grounds stated in the said report for the disallowance of the previou.?
correspond ijig Acts,' the undersigned recommends ihut the three Acts above mentioned
be disallowed.
Humbly submitted,
C. FITZPATPa'CK,
Minister of Justice.
943.
ProclumaUon Di^salloiring Chapter IJf.
AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA.
The aSrd day of March. 1904.
Presest :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with the
Legislative As.sembly of that province, did on the 4th day of May, 1903, pass an Act,
which has been tu-ansmitted. chaptered 14, and intituled: 'An Act relating to the
employment on works carried on imder franchises granted by private Acts.'
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Counc:l,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommending that the same be
disallowed.
The Governor General in Council has thereu] on this day been pleased to dec' are
his disallowance of the said Act. and the same is disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are Vo take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly-
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerh of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott, Earl of Miuto, Governor General of Canada, do
hereby certify that the Act passed by the legislature of the province of Brif.ish
Columbia, on the 4th day of May. 1903, chaptered 14 and intituled: ' An Act relating
to the employment on works carried on under franchise.s granted by private Acts,'
was received by me on the l.">th of May, 1903.
Given under mv hand and seal this 23rd dav of March, 1904.
MINTO.
108 AXGLO-JAPAyESE CO.AV£.Yr/O.V
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
1678-79.
Proclamation Disallowing Chapters 12 and 17.
AT THE GOVEENMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA.
The 2(3th day of :Nrareb, 1904.
Present: —
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
^Yhercas the ^.ioutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, with tht>
Legislative Assembly of that province, did on the 4th day of May, 1903, pass two
certain Acts, which have been t;rausmitted. chaptered respectively 12, intitu'eJ : ' An
Act to regulate immigration into British Columbia,' and 17, intituled: 'An Act fur-
ther to amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act.'
And whereas the said Acts have been laid before the Governor General in Council,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice recommending that fhe san'o
.-hould be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General" in Council has this day been pleased to declare
his disallowance of the said Acts, and the same are hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are t!o take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Cv-uncil.
I, Sir Gilbert John Elliott, Earl of Minto, Governor General of Canada, do
hereby certify that the Act passed by the legislature of the province of Britrish
Columbia on the 4th day of May, 190.3, chaptered 12, and intituled: 'An Act to regu-
late immigration into British Columbia,' and 17, intituled: 'An Act further to
amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act,' respectively, were received by me on the
15th day of May, 1903.
Given under my hand and seal this 26th day of March, 1904.
MINTO.
1679.
ExTR.\CT from a Report of the Ilonourahle the Minister of Justice, dated 8th Janu-
ary, IdOJf, approved hy His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on ike
23rd March. 190J,.
3 Edward YIL— Received by the Secretary of State on 25th Juno, 1903.
Chapter .8, intituled' 'An Act to ratify an Order in Council approved on tlie
eighttenth day of March, 1902, rescinding cerliiin prj'.'i'cas of an Order in CDuncll
approved on the fourth day of September, 1901, respeotin'.; the l.nid grai/t of the
Cclumbia and Western Railway Company.'
The under.signed reserves this Act for further Ci.nsideration, inasmuch as he
iMiderstands that objections are urged against it on l>elia',f oi the railwy company
wjicse title is thereby atfocfied.
Chapter 12, intituled: 'An .\ct to regulate immigration into l^ritish Columbia.'
Chapter 14, intituled: 'An Act relating to the employment on works carried on
under franchises granted by private Acts.'
Chapter 17, intituled: 'An Act to further amend the "Coal Mine^ Re<'ulation
Act." '
CHINESE'AUD JAPANESE IMMWRATIOy
109
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
The uudei-siguwl lias nlrcady rcporteJ recommciuliiig the disallowance of these
three Acts for the reasons upon which similar Acts have heretofore been disallowed.
Chapter 30, ' An Act: to incorporate the ' Adams River Eailway Company." '
Chapter 32, ' An Act to incorporate the Britiah Co'nmbi i Northern and Mac-
kenzie Valley Railway Company.'
Chapter 33, ' An Act to incorporatle the '' Flathead Valley Railroad Company." '
Chapter 34, ' An Act to ineorpornte the Kootenay, Cariboo and Pacific Railway
Company.'
Chapter 35, ' An Act to incorporate tilie Kootenay Development and Tramways
Company.'
Chapter 37, ' An Act to incorporate the Morris.sey. Fernie and iNfichel Railway
Company.'
Chapter 38, ' An Act to amend the " Nicola, Kamloops and Similkameen Coal
and Railway Company Act:. 1891."'
Chapter 39, ' An Act to incorporate the Pacific Northern and Eastern Railway
Company.'
Chapter 42, ' An Act to amend the " Vernon and Nelson Telephone Company
Act, 1891." '
Each of these Acts contains a provision in effect that the Act shall not come into
force until the company shall give security to the satisfaction of the Lieutenant Gover-
nor in Council, that in the event of Dominion legislation bringing the company under
the e.xclusive jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada, the niithority of the Liciiten-
ant Governor in Council to fix maximum rates for freight and passenger traflSe shall
be secured, as matter of contract and obligation of the company. This provision cor-
responds with that contained in previous Acts of British Columbia, the objections
to which were stated by the Ifinister of Justice at the time. These chapters are sub-
ject to the same comment, hut may for the same reasons be left to their operation.
C. FITZPATRICK.
Minister of Justice.
P. C. 638.
Imperul Consulate Generai, of Japan for the Doiiixiox of Canada,
Montreal, April 4, 1904.
To Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.,
Prime Minister of Canada,
&c., &c., &c.
Dear Sir, — I have the honour of informing you that I am this day in receipt of
a cable instruction from His Excellency Baron Komura, His Imperial Japanese
Majesty's Minister of Foreign Affairs, to convey to your government the highest
appreciation of the most friendly attitude once more shown toward the Japanese gov-
ernment by the Canadian government, by having disallowed these Acts enacted in
1003 by the British Columbia legislatures against the honour and dignity of the Jap-
anese nation and also to convey to your government the earnest desire of the Japanese
government that the removal of their representative to the seal of federal government
may result in the closer relations between the governments of Japan and Canada and
also in the steady growth of trade and commerce between the two nations.
TATSZGORO NOSSE.
Con.sul General of Japan.
110 AXGLO-JAPAyESE COyrESTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
{Approved ly Order in Council, Novemher 16, IQOJf.)
Department of Justice.
Ottawa, October 29, 1904.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has the honour to submit his report on the statutes of the several
provinces, passed at the last session of the legislatures thereof (1904), as follows: —
* * * * *
British Columbia; 3 and 4 Edward Yll; received by the Secretary of State on
January 4, 1904.
These Acts may be left to such operation as they may have, except chapter 15,
intituled ' An Act respecting the constitution, practice and procedure of the Supreme
Court of British Columbia nnd for other purposes relating to the administration o£
justice.
Section 5 contains a provision that the persons to be appointed judges of the
Supreme Court of British Columbia shall be barristers-at-law of not less than ten
years standing, of which ten years they shall have been for five years actively engaged
in practice at the Bar of British Columbia.
This provision is, in the opinion of the undersigned, ultra vires, and ought not
to be allowed to stand. A similar enactment by the Province of Xova Scotia was con-
sidered some years ago by the Department of Justice, and the Minister recommended
that it be disallowed unless repealed by the legislature. See the order in council setting
forth the reasons of the Minister, approved by His Excellency the Governor General
on November 19, 1896 (Provincial Legislation, 1896-'S, pages 12 to 14.)
For the same reason the undersigned recommends that inquiry be made immedi-
ately of the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia as to whether the clause in
question will be repealed within the time limited for disallowance. The Lieutenant
Governor's reply when received should be referred to the undersigned for further
consideration.
Chapter 17, intituled * An Act to consolidate and amend the law respecting the
qualification and registration of electors, the regulation of elections of members of
the Provincial Legislative Assembly, and the trial of Controverted Elections.'
Chapter 26, intituled ' An Act to regulate Immigration into British Columbia,'
and
Chapter 39, intituled ' An Act to Amend the "' Coal !Mines Regulation Act " are
resserved for further report.'
Chapter .^4, intituled ' An Act to secure certo^in Pioneer Settlers within the
Esquimau and Nanaimo Eailway Land Belt their surface and under-surface rights,'
has been already considered and left to its operation by Order in Council of June 21
last.
Chapter 62, intituled ' An Act to amend " The Vancouver Incorporation Act,
1900." '
There has been referred to the undersigned copy of the petition of the city of
Vancouver praying that this Act be disallowed on the grounds therein stated.
The petitioners are opposed to having a board of police commissioners for the
city, and they allege that the Bill was unduly hastened through the legislature; also
that the fact^ of the case were misrepresented and that there was breach of faith.
These reasons, however, do not affect the validity or charaotor of the legislation
so far as the capacity of the legislature goes, and the undersigned considers that the
grievance of the city, if any exists, should bo adjudged by the legislature, wliich has
authority to remedy it, and that it would not be within the province of Your Excel-
lency's government to take any action based upon any view which it may hold as to
the facts and reasons urged for disallowance.
k
CBIXESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATIOy 1H
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Tho undorsigiicfl does not, therefore, recommend any interference with this Act,
but ho recommends that the cit.v of Vancouver be informed of the grounds of this
report and the conchision of Your Excellency's Government upon the petition.
» * * * «
The undersigned recommends that a copy of this report, if approved, so far as it
relates to each province, shall be communicated to the Lieutenant Governor of the
province.
Humbly submitted,
C. FITZPATEICK,
Minister of Justice.
2140.
(Approved hy Order in Council 29 December, lOOJf.)
November 16, 1904.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has the honour to report that chapter 17 of the Acts of British
Columbia passed at the last session of the legislature (1904) intituled:
' An Act to consolidate and amend the law respecting the qualification and regis-
tration of electors, the regulation of the election of members of the Provincial Legis-
lative Assembly, and the trial of Controverted Elections '
provides among other things that every male of the full age of twenty-one, not being
disqualified by this Act, or by any other law in force in the province, being entitled
within the province to the privileges of a natural-born British subject, and being able
to read the Act or any portion thereof to the satisfaction of the registrar if required so
to do, having resided in the province for six months, and in the electoral district in
which he claims to vote for one month, and being duly registered, shall be entitled to
vote.
The general intention is apparently to extend the right to vote to male British
subjects of the age of twenty-one years resident in the province. It is provided, how-
over, that no Chinaman, Japanese or Lidian shall have his name placed on the register
of voters for any electoral district, or be entitled to vote at any election; and by the
interpretation clause the words 'Chinaman ' and ' Japanese ' are defined to include
any person of these races respectively whether naturalized or not.
The Naturalization Act, R.S.C., chapter 113, section 15. provides that an alien
to whom a certificate of naturalization is granted shall within Ca:iada be entitled to all
political and other rights, powers and privileges, and be subject to all obligations to
which a n'atural-born British subject is entitled or subject within Canada.
The undersigned does not doubt that a legislature may define the local franchise,
but he considers that Tovir Excellency's Government ought not to approve of the policy
of a legislature withholding from naturalized British subjects merely because of their
race or naturalization rights or privileges conferred generally upon natural-born British
subjects of the same class. Parliament having exclusive authority with regard to natu-
ralization and aliens has, the undersigned apprehends, the right to declare what the
effect of naturalization shall be. and local legislation which is intended to interfere or
has the eifect of interfering with the apparent policy of parliament in the exercise of
its powers with regard to any subject may. in the opinion of the undersigned, even if it
can be held to be intra vires of the legislat\ire. properly be disallowed by Tour Excel-
Icrcy. It appears to the undersigned to be quite undesirable in the public interest that
112 AXGL0-JA.PA1\ESE CONVENTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
naturalized British subjects should be made subject to a disability or exceptional treat-
ment havi-.ig- regard to the rights conferred upon British subjects generally, and he
understands that that view is expressed or implied in the section of the Naturalization
Act above referred to. The undersigned would for that reason recommend disallow-
ance were it not for the fact that the provisions in question are merely re-enactments
of similar provisions which have been standing in the British Columbia Election Acts
for a number of years. The disallowance of the present statute would not, therefore,
affect the law of British Columbia in this particular.
The undersigned hopes, however, that this matter will be further considered by
the provincial legislature, and such amendments made as may be necessary to remove
the objections herein stated.
Chapter 39, 'An Act to amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act,' contains only one
provision. It in amendment of section 2 of the Coal Mines Regulation Act, R.S.B.C.
(1.S9T). chapter 138, whereby it is enacted that "the words Chinamen and Chinese"
shall include any person or persons of the Chinese blood or race whether born within
the limits of the Chinese Empire or its deijendencies or not, and shall not be affected
by naturalization.'
This is an interpretation clause and of course has no effect except as defining
these terms mentioned therein where they appear elsewhere in the Act.
Referring to the amended Act it is provided by section 4 that ' no boy under the
age of twelve years, and no woman or girl of any age, and no Chinaman shall be em-
ployed in or allowed to be for the purpose of employment in any mine in which this
Act applies below ground.'
By section 12 it is provided that any person who contravenos or fails to comply
with any provision of the Act with respect to the employment of Chinamen shall be
guilty of an offence against the Act, and by section 82, rule 34, no Chinaman shall
occupy any position of trust or responsibility in or about a mine whereby through
his ignorance, carelessness or negligence he might endanger the life or limb of any
person therein employed. These so far as the undersigned has discovered are the
only provisions of the amended Act expressly relating to Chinamen. Section 4, above
quoted, was held ultra vires by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in the
case of the Union Colliery of British Columbia vs. Bryden, 1899, appeal case, p. 580,
as legislation affecting naturalization and aliens. Upon the same principle the under-
signed assumes that the other provisions of the amended Act to which he has called
attention are ultra rires and the question arises as to what can be the intention of
the legislature in extending the meaning of the word ' Chinaman ' in this Act where
it has been held by the highest judicial authority incomijetent to the legislature to
exact the provisions in which the word occurs.
The amending Act is also objectionable as apparently attempting to deprive
i;;.l\iralizod Chinamen on accoiuit of their naturalization, of rights which they now
have.
For these reasons it api^ears to the undersigned that this Art should be disallowed.
Before recommending sueli action to be taken, however, he considers that a copy <ii'
this report, if approved, should be transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British
Cohimbia for any explanation or remarks which he may desire to offer, and that he bo
particularly requested to inform Your Excellency's government as soon as possible
as to what object within the legislative capacity of the assonilily is intended to be
nccnmplished by this Act. Upon receiving a reply from the Lieutenant Governor it
should be referred to the undersigned for further consideration.
Humbly submitted,
C. FTTZPATRTCK.
Minister of Justice.
CHIXESE AXD JAPAXESE lilillGRATlOy 113
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
2138.
(Approved hy Order in Coitncil, 20th January, 1903.)
16th November, 1904.
I'o His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has had under consideration chapter 26 of the Acts of British
Columbia, passed at the last session of the legislature (1904) intituled ' An Act to
regulate immigration into British Columbia.'
This Act bears the same title and is essentially of the same effect as other Acta
of the province which have during recent years been disallowed by Your Excellency.
It prohibits the immigration into British Columbia (subject to certain exceptions)
of any person who when asked to do so by an officer fails to write out at dictation in
the character of some language of Europe and sign in the presence of the officer a
passage of fifty words in length in European language directed by the officer.
Among other immigrants excepted from this prohibition are those excepted by cer-
tificate in writing of the Minister charged with the administration of the Act or of
any officer appointed to enforce its provisions. Power is conferred to prevent pro-
hibited immigrants from entering the province and to deport those who have entered,
and masters of vessels arriving at ports in the province with passengers are required
10 submit their passenger lists and answer questions and assist the provincial officers
in the performance of their duties under the Act. Regulations may be made by the
Lieutenant Governor in Council to empower officers to determine whether any person
is a prohibited immigrant and to prescribe a tariff of fees to be paid by persons to
cover any expenses which may be incurred in determining whether such persons are
or are not prohibited immigrants.
This Act. therefore, contains all the provisions which have been condemned in
the British Columbia Immigration Acts recently disallowed. The grounds of objection
to these Acts have been stated and reiterated on behalf of Your Excelleucy's govern-
ment. See particularly the reports of the Minister of Justice of 5th January and 4th
September, 1901, upon which the Act to Regulate Immigration into British Columbia
of 1900 was disallowed.
The undersigned does not consider, in view of the past correspondence and action
of Your Excellency's government having regard to such legislation, that any object
is to be attained by further communication with the local authorities, and he recom-
mends following the decision which was previously reached, and the course adopted
on previous occasions, that this Act be disallowed. He recommends further that a
copy of this report, if approved, be transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British
Columbia for the information of his government.
Humbly submitted,
c. fitzpatrick:.
Minister of Justice.
2139.
At the Government House at Ottawa.
The 20th day of January, 1905.
Present :
His Excellency the Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with the
Legislative Assembly of that province did on the 10th day of February, 1904, pass an
74b— 8
114 AyOLO-JAPAJfESE CO:\TENTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Act which has been transmitted, chapter 26, and intituled ' An Act to regulate immi-
gration into British Columbia.'
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Council
together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommending that the same
should be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General in Council has thereupon this day been pleased
to declare his disallowance of the said Act, and the same is herebj' disallowed accord-
ingly.
Wliereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take and notice and govern themselves
accordingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerh of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Albert Henry George, Earl Grey, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the Province of British Columbia, on
the 10th day of February, 1904, chaptered 26, and intituled ' An Act to regulate immi-
gration into British Columbia,' was received by the Governor General of Canada on
the 24th day of March, 1904.
Given under my hand and seal at Ottawa this 20th day of January, 1905.
GEET.
425JM
The Honourable
The Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Canada.
27th .January, 1905.
At Government House, Victoria, B.C.
Sir, — I have the honour to forward herewith a copy of a report of the Attorney
General (drawn after due consideration of tthe views expressed in the report of the
Honourable the Minister of Justice) approved on the 26th inst.. relating to the
'Provincial Elections Act' and the 'Coal Mines Regulatuon Act Amendment Act,
1904.'
HENEI G. JOLY DE LOTBINIERE.
Lieutenant-Governor.
Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable tfie Executive Council, approved
hy His Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 26th day of January, 1905.
The Committee of Council have had under consideration a report herewith, dated
January 19, 1905, from the Attorney General, upon the report of the Minister of
Justice of November 16, 1904, with respect; to certain provisions of chapters 17 and
39 of the Acts of British Columbia, 1903-1904, intitnilcd the • P:-c\ ir.cial Elections
Act' and the 'Coal Mines Kogulation Act Amendment Actj, 1904.'
The committee concur in the report of the .\ttni-npy Gcnci-al and submit the
«.iino for at.pro^8l.
CHARLES WH.SON.
Clerh, Executive Council.
To His Honour tfie Lieutenant Governor in Council:
The undersigned has the honour to refer to Your Honour's letter of the 17th
January, 1905, to the Provincial Secretary, inclosing report of the 'Minister of Justice
CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 115
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
t'o His Kxcclkiii-y tlie Governor General upon chapters 17 and 39 of the Statutes of
British (.'olumbia for the years 1903-1904, being the 'Provincial Elections Act' and
the ' Coal ilines R(>gulation Act Amendment Act. 1904.'
With regard to cliapter 17, the provisions objeotiixl to are those contained in
section 6, which provides that no Chinaman, Japanese or Indian shall have his name
placed iipon the register of votere. That section interpreted, as Vhc Minister points
out, includes not only alien Chinese, but also persons of the Chinese race who, act-
ing in conformity with the Dominion Naturalization Act, become British subjects.
The position that Your Honour's Ministers and Legislature have assumed upon this
subject is one of grave objection to any one of the class of persons mentioned in the
seet-ion, being placed upon the voters' list.
The undersigned observes that the Minister expresses the hope ' that this matter
will be fnrtlher considered by the Provincial Legislature, and such amendments made
as may be necessary to remove the objections herein stated.'
With respect to this, in view of the opinion that the undersigned has already
expressed, and with the knowledge that Your Honour's Ministers have of the feeling
throughout the province, and also the views of the majority of the members of the
legislature, perhaps the whole of them, Your Honours, Minister cannot recommend,
nor take the responsibility of adopting the suggestion of the Minister of Justice
that the mattler should be further considered by the legislature. The only way in
which Your Honour's Ministers would feel justified in testing the views of the
legislature would be by bringing down the report of the Mimst!3r ot Justice and
asking for an expression of opinion, but the undersigned is quite certain as to what
the result would be, and hence it seems hardly proper to subject: the views of the
Minister of Justice to such a severe test. The general consensus of opinion through-
out the province is very strongly in support of Vhe view that these persons shouM
not be permitted to be on the voters' list. As the Minister of Justice points out, dis-
alluwance would not; change the law upon the subject, and that the province has the
undoubted right to prohibit any person or set of persons from being placed upon the
voters' list has been determined by the Privy Council in the case of Cunningham
vs. Toniey Homma, reported in Appeal Cases, 1903, page 151.
Chapter 39 is an Act tso amend the Coal Mines Regulation Act. and is intended
for the purpose of interpreting the words ' Chinaman ' and ' Chinese ' when used in
connection with the Act. The words ' Chinaman ' and ' Chinese,' in the province of
British Columbia have been used very largely to express the idea of race rather than
nationality, and it was for the purpose of obviating any doubt upon this subject
that this shorti Act was passed.
The question whether section 82, rule 34 is within the powers of the Provincial
Legislatiire is one of the matters which are now pending before the Judicial Com-
mittee of the Privy Council ; therefore, the undersigned hopes that the Act will not
be disallowed, but that all questions as to its constitutionality may be left to be deter-
mined by the judicial tribunal at present seized of the whole question.
The Minister of Justice will, in due course, be served with a copy of the pro-
ceedings, and will have an opportunity, if de.sired, of appearing before the Privy
Council, or of instructing counsel in the matter.
Dated the 19th day of January, A.D. 190.5.
CHARLES WILSON,
Attorney Oc-tieral.
74b— 8, \
116 AXGLO-JAPAyESE CO-Yr£-Vr/O.V
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
747
(Approved hy Order in Cmincil, 38 April, 1905.)
Ottawa. April 19, 1905.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned has had under consideration the following statutes of the Legis-
lative Assembly of British Columbia, assented to on 8th instant, and received by the
Secretary of State for Canada on 19th instant, viz. : —
No. 67, ' An Act to regulate immigration into British Columbia ' ;
No. 81, 'An Act relating to the employment on works carried on \nider franchises
granted by Private Acts ' ;
No. 85, ' An Act further to amend the " Coal Mines Eegulation Act." '
Former enactments of these statutes by the Legislative Assembly of British
Columbia have upon previous occasions been fully commented upon and disallowed,
and the views of Tour Excellency's government with regard to them are well known.
The undersigned does not consider it expedient that the present enactments should
remain in force, and the fact that the assembly continues to re-enact these statutes
after full discussion, and after they have been several times disallowed, shows that it
•would be a mere waste of time to communicate with the provincial government with
a view to a repeal or modification of these Acts at the hands of the assembly.
The undersigned recommends accordingly that each of the statutes above men-
tioned be disallowed, and that the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia be in-
formed of the action taken by Your Excellency's government.
Humbly submitted.
C. FITZPATRICK.
Minister of Justice.
748
At the Go\'ernxient House at Ott.wva.
The 2Sth day of April. 1905.
Present :
The Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with the
Legislative Assembly of that province, did on tho 8th day of April. 1905, pass an Act
to regulate immigration into British Columbia.
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Council,
together with a report from the ^Minister of Justice, recommending that the said Act
should be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General in Council has this day been pleased to declare
his disallowance of the said Act and the same is hereb.v disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern themselves accord-i
ingljr.
JOHN J. AfcGEE,
Cleric of the Privy Council.
CBINESE AND JAPANESE lilillGRATION 117
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
T. Sir Henry Albert George, Earl Grey, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia on
the eighth day of April, nineteen hundred and five, chaptered C7, and intituled ' An Act
to regulate Immigration into British Columbia,' was received by me on the nineteenth
day of April, nineteen hundred and five.
Given under my hand and seal this twenty-eighth day of April, nineteen hundred
and five.
GREY.
759
At the Government House at Gtt.wva.
The 28th day of April, 1905.
Present :
I'he Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with the
Legislative Assembly of that province, did on the 8th day of April, 1905, pass an Act
which has been transmitted, chaptered 81, and intituled ' An Act relating to the em-
ployment on works carried on under franchises granted by private Acts.'
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Council,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice, recommending that the said Act
should be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General in Council has this day been pleased to declare
his disallowance of the said Act and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly. ,
JOHX J. ^rcGEE,
Cleric of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Henry Albert George, Earl Grey, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia on
the eighth day of April, nineteen hundred and five, chaptered 81, and intituled ' An
Act relating to the employment on works carried on under franchises granted by
private Acts,' was received by me on the nineteenth day of April, nineteen hundred
and five.
Given under my hand and seal this twenty-eighth day of April, nineteen hundred
and five.
GEET.
763
At the Government House at Ottawa,
28th day of April, 1905.
Present: The Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the Province of British Columbia, with the
Legislative Assembly of that province, did on the 8th day of April, 1905, pass an Act
which has been transmitted, chapter 85, and intituled ' An Act further to amend the
Coal Mines Regulation Act,'
118 AVGLO-JAPANESE COyVEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
And whereas the said Act lias been laid before the GoTOrnor General in Council,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice recommending that the said Act
should be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General in Council has this day been pleased to declare
his disallowance of the said Act, and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other i^ersons whom it may concern, are to tak\? notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Councli.
I, Sir Henry Albert George, Earl Grey, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the Province of British Columbia on
the eighth day of April, nineteen hundred and five, chaptered 85, and intituled 'An
Act further to amend the " Coal Mines Eegulation Act," was received by me on the
nineteenth day of April, nineteen hundred and five.
Given under my hand and seal this twenty-eighth day of April, nineteen hundred
and five.
GREY.
Imperul Consulate General of Japan for the Domimox of Canada.
Ottawa, May 8, 1905.
To the Eight Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Lwrier, G.C.M.G., P.C,
Premier of Canada, &c., &e., &e.
Dear Sir, — I have the honour of informing you that I am in receipt of a cable
instruction from His Excellency, Baron Komura, the Minister of State for Foreign
Affairs, that I shall in behalf of the Imperial Japanese Government tender you their
sincere appreciation of the prompt measures taken by the Canadian government in
connection with disallowance of certain Acts lately passed by the British Columbian
government against the honour and interest of our people.
The Japanese government accepts this news with very great pleasure and satis-
faction, especially at the present juncture when they are in need of any friendly feel-
ing on the part of one of their great neighbours across the Pacific.
While trusting in the Canadian government's justice and good faith the Japan-
ese government wiU always adhere to their policy of voluntary restrictions on theur
people emigrating to British Columbia.
TATSZGORO NOSSE,
77(,'! Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul General,
for the Dominion of Canada.
Imperial Consulate General of Japan.
385 Lairier Ave. E.ast.^
Ottaw.\, Sept. 18, 1905.
Hon. Sydney Fisher,
&c., &c., &e.
Dear Sir, — T am leaving this note with you, as I will be absent for a few days
from the city. I learnt this afternoon from Hon. Mr. Scott, the Secretary of State,
that ynur government was going to exact from Japan a few special concessions on
becoming a party to the Anglo-Japanese Treaty. Your government, I understand,
proposes to restrict the immigration, coastwise navigation and v«ome other items. It
is rather surprising to me that your government, in spite of your statement, is going
to a<k for such restrictions. The Japanese government will. T am afraid, never
CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 119
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
agree to such terms and decline to entertain the questions of allowing Canada into
the party, if she will ask Japan to give her special concessions. Japan gives England
the right of coastwise navigation;; for instance the CP.E. steamers at present call
at all the open ports in Japan, but Japan will never ask the same privilege and the
immigration will always be restricted voluntanly by Japan and I do hope very much
that Canada will depend upon our good faith and will not try to put any restrictions
by right of treaty. The Queensland treaty is quoted but this treaty does not now
exist, since her amalgamation into the Commonwealth, and there is not any treaty at
present between the Colony and Japan.
I hope you will do your best not to make any special proposal to the English
government, else your endeavours will come to nothing.
NOSSE.
1815
(Approved hy Order in Council, September 30. 1905.)
September 18, 1905.
To His E.i-reUcnrp the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned referring to his report of April 19 last, approved by the Governor
ia Coimcil on April 28 last, has the honour to state that the statutes of the Legislative
Assembly of British Columbia thereby recommended to be disallowed were, as stated
in the report, as follows ; —
No. 67, An Act to regulate Immigration into British Columbia.
No. 81, An Act relating to the employment on works carried on under franchises
granted by Private Acts.
No. 85, An Act further to amend the ' Coal Mines Regulation Act.'
The Order in Council based upon this report, however, refers to these statutes as
chapter 67, chapter 81 and chapter 85. These statutes as chaptered, however, in the
last volume of the annual statutes of British Columbia recently issued are not chap-
tt-red as stated in the Order in Council, their chapter numbers being instead chapter
28, chapter 30 and chapter 36 respectively. Lest any question should arise on account
cif this error as to the effect of the Order in Council and subsequent proceedings
thereon, the undersigned recommends that the following statutes of the Legislative
Assembly of British Colimibia, assented to on April 8, 1905, and received by the
Secretary of State for Canada on April 19, viz. : —
No. 67, An Act to regulate Iimnigration into British Columbia, being chapter 28
of the statutes of British Columbia, enacted at the last session of the Legislative
Assembly thereof.
No. 81, An Act relating to the employment on works carried on under franchises
granted by private Acts, being chapter 30 of the Statutes of British Columbia,
enacted at the last session of the Legislative Assembly thereof.
No. 85, An Act further to amend the Coal ilines Regulation Act, being chapter
SG of the Statutes of British Columbia, enacted at the last session of the Legislative
Assembly thereof, be disallowed, and that such disallowance be signified in the usual
way.
Respectfully submitted,
C. FITZPATRICK,
Minister of Justice.
120 A2fGL0-JAPAyESE COyVEXTIOX
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
1816
At the Government House at Otta\v>
The 16tli day of October, 1905.
Present :
The Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with the
Legislative Assembly of that province did on the 8th day of April, 1905, pass an Act
which has been transmitted, No. 67, ' An Act to regulate Immigration into British
Columbia, being chapter 28 of the Statutes of British Columbia enacted at the last
session of the Legislative Assembly thereof.
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Council,
together -with a report from the Minister of Justice recommending that the said Act
be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General in Council is pleased to declare his disallowance
of the said Act and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
KODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerh of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Albert Henry George, Earl Grey, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia, on
the 8th day of April, 1905, No. 67, 'An Act to regulate Immigration into British
Columbia,' being chapter 28 of the Statutes of British Columbia, enacted at the last
session of the Legislative Assembly thereof, was received by me on the 19th day of
April, 1905.
Given under my hand and seal this 16th day of October, 1905.
GREY.
1837
At the Government House at Ottawa.
The 16th day of October, 1905.
Present :
The Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with tho
Legislative Assembly of that province did on the 8th day of April, 1905, pass an Act
which has been transmitted. No. 81, ' An Act relating to the employment on works
carried on under franchise* granted by private Acts, being chapter 30 of the Statutes
of British Columbia enacted at the last session of the Legislative Assembly thereof.
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Council,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice recommending that the said Act
be disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General in Co\nicil is pleased to declare his disullowancj
oni the said Act and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
CHIXESE AND JAPASESE IMMIGRATION 121
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern themselves accord-
ingly.
RODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Albert Houry George, Earl Grey, Governor General of Canada, do hereby
certify that the Act passed by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia, on
the 8th day of April, lOOS, No. 81, ' An Act relating to the employment on works
carried on under franchises granted by private Acts," being chapter 30 of the Statutes
of British Columbia, enacted at the last session of the Legislative Assembly thereof,
was received by me on the 19th day of April, 1905.
Given under my hand and seal this 16th day of October, 1905.
GREY.
1838
At the Government House at Ottawa.
— The 16th day of October, 1905.
Present :
The Governor General in Council.
Whereas the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia with the
Legislative Assembly of that province did on the 8th day of April, 1905, pass an Act
which has been transmitted No. 85, ' An Act further to amend the Coal Mines Regu-
lation Act,' being chapter 36 of the Statutes of British Columbia, enacted at the last
session of the Legislative Assembly tiereof.
And whereas the said Act has been laid before the Governor General in Council,
together with a report from the Minister of Justice recommending that the said Act be
disallowed.
Therefore the Governor General in Council is pleased to declare his disallowance
of the said Act and the same is hereby disallowed accordingly.
Whereof the Lieutenant Governor of the province of British Columbia, and all
other persons whom it may concern are to take notice and govern, themselves accord-
ingly.
RODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerh of the Privy Council.
I, Sir Albert George, Earl Grey, Governor General of Canada, do hereby certify
that the Act passed by the Legislature of the province of British Columbia, on the
8th day of April, 1905, No. 85, ' An Act further to amend the Coal Mines Regulation
Act,' being chapter 36 of the Statutes of British Columbia, enacted at the last session
of the Legislative Assembly thereof, was received by me on the 19th day of April,
1905.
Given under my hand and seal this 16th day of October, 1905.
GREY.
122 AXGLO-JAPANESE COyVEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
2036
(Approved hi/ Order in Council loth November, 1905.)
November 1, 1905.
To His ExceJlency the Governor Genei'al in Council:
The imdersigned has had under consideration the statutes of the province of
British Cokimbia, passed in the fifth year of His Majesty's reign, 1905, received by
the Secretary of State for Canada on the 21st day of April hist, and he is of opinion
that these may be left to such operation as they may have, except the following, which
have been or will be specially considered. —
Chapter 10, intituled : ' An Act for licensing commercial travellers.'
Chapter 11, intituled: 'An Act to amend the "Companies Act, 1897."'
Chapter 18, intituled : ' An Act further to amend the Supreme Court Act.'
Chapter 25, intituled: ' An Act further to amend the Game Protection Act, 1S9S.'
Chapter 28, intituled : ' An Act to regulate immigration into British Columbia.'
Chapter 30, intituled : ' An Act relating to the employment on works carried on
under franchises granted by private Acts.'
Chapter 36, intituled: ' An Act further to amend the Coal Wines Regulation Act.'
Chapter 45, intituled: 'An Act respecting the Songhees Indian Reservation, Van-
couver Island.'
Chapter 61, intituled: ' An Act to incorporate the British Columbia Securities
Company,' and
Chapter 64. intituled: 'An Act to incorporate the General Trusts Corporation.'
The undersigned has received a communication objecting to
Chapter 7, intituled: 'An Act respecting Provincial Land Surveyors,'
upon the ground that it is unjust and perhaps ultra vires.
The undersigned, considering the objections so raised, is of the opinion, however,
that they do not afford any ground for interference with the statute.
The undersigned further recommends that a copy of this report, if approved, be
transmitted to the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia for the information of
his government.
Humbly submitted,
C. FITZPATRICK,
Minister of Justice.
TRKATV OF ClIMMKRCE .\XD NAVIGATION- BKTWEEN ORKAT BRITAIX AND J.\PAN.
1. 715 J. Colonial Secretary, December 31, 1894, co\pring copy of treaty signed
at London, July 16, 1894. Also protocol signed July 10. 1894, exchange
of notes, 4:c.
1360 J. Colonial Secretary, February 17, 1896, covering supplementary con-
vention, signed at Tokio, July 16, 1895.
2. Colonial Secretary, July 15, 1896. For answer re Japanese treaty.
Report of Minister of Trade and Commerce upon treaty notice with Jai)an.
3. Order in Council, October 13, 1896. Not expedient that government of Can-
ada should become party to treaty.
4. Colonial Secretary, Nnvember 17. 1896. Asks for report of Alinsti-r of
Trade and Commerce of July 29. 1896.
Order in Council, December 22, 1896, transmitting cipy asked for.
5. Order in Council. January 23, 1897, re most-favoured-nation clause.
CUIXESE AXD JAPAXESi: IMlIIGRATIOy 123
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
G. Order in Council, November 5, 1897, 7-e ailmission of articles growth, pro-
duce and manufacture of Japan.
1705 K. Colonial Secretary, December 2, 1899. Status of Indian and colo-
nial subjects residing in Japan, and re claims British colonies to benefits
of tariff.
Colonial Secretary, February 28, 1902, transmitting copy of parliamentary
paper, agreement bet:weeu Great Britain and Japan.
Order in Council, June 7, 1905, to ascertain if Japanese government would
be prepared to admit Canada to a participation in said treaty.
Col. Sec., 11 July, 1905, re adhesion of Canada.
Governor General to Colonial Secretary, September 5, 19(Vi. re entry Can-
ada into Anglo- Japanese treaty.
Colonial Secretary, September 6, 1905, asks for reply to despatch, Ju'y 11.
1905.
Order in Council, September 26, 1905, government of Canada is prepared
to adhere tV) treaty.
Colonial Secretary, November 16, 1905, His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokio
has been instructed to send draft treaty to Governor General for con-
sideration of Canadian government.
His Majesty's Jlinister at Tokio to Governor General, November 19, 1905.
inclosing draft proposed convention.
Governor General to Colonial Secretary, November 24. 1905. Dominion Gov-
ernment agrees to treaty 1894 and convention 1895.
Colonial Secretary, to Governor General, November 30, 1905 re special conven-
tion with Japan.
Governor General to Colonial Secretary, December 13, 1905, Sir Wilfrid
Laurier has seen draft and hopes final formalitdes will be concluded soon
as possible.
Colonial Secretary to Governor General, January 1, 1906. Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs has been requested telegraph to Tokio to sign con-
vention at once, &c.
Colonial Secretary to Governor General, February 6. 1906. Convention with
Japan signed January 31.
Colonial Secretary to Governor General, March 31, 1906. Transmits copies
of correspondence re convention.
715J
TREATY OF COMMERCE AND NAVIGATION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN
AND JAPAN.
DowNixG Street, December 31, 1894.
To the Officer Administering the Government of Canada.
Sir, — I have the honour to transmit to you, for publication in the colony under
your government, a copy of a treaty of commerce and navigation between Great Bri-
tain and Japan, signed at London on July 16, 1894, the ratifications of which were ex-
changed at Tokio on the 25th of August last.
I have to call your attention to Article XIX. of the treaty, from which you will
observe that, if it is desired that the colony under your government should come
within the oijeration of the treaty, notice to that effect must be given to the Japanee^e
government within two years from August 25, 1894, the date of the exchange of ratifi-
cations of treaty.
I have therefore to request that you will be good enough to acquaint me of the
wishes of your government in the matter.
RIPON.
124 A^GLO-JAPAXESE CONTENTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
TREATY OF COMMERCE AND NAVIGATION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN
AND JAPAN.
Sigyied at London, July 16, lS9i.
[Ratification exchanged at Tohio, August 25, 189Ji.^
Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
Empress of India, and His Majesty the Emperor of Japan, being equally desirous of
maintaining the relations of good understanding which happily exist between them,
by extending and increasing the intercourse between their respective states, and being
convinced that this object cannot better be accomplished than by revising the treaties
hitherto existing between the two countries, have resolved to complete such a revision,
based upon principles of equity and mutual benefit, and, for that purpose, have named
as their plenipotentiaries, that is to say :
Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
Empress of India, the Right Honourable John, Earl of Kimberely, Knight of the Most
Noble Order of the Garter, &c., &c.. Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of Stat« for
Foreign Affairs:
And His Majesty the Empeor of Japan, Viscomit Aoki Siuzo, Junii, first class
of the Imperial Order of the Sacred Treasure, His Majesty's Envoy Extraordinary
and Minister Plenipotentiary at the Court of St. James';
Who, after having communicated to each other their full powers, found to be in
good and due form, have agreed upon and concluded the following articles : —
ARTICLE I.
The subjects of each of the two high contracting parties shall have full liberty
to enter, travel, or reside in any part of the dominions and possessions of the other
contracting party, and shall enjoy full and perfect protection for their persons and
property.
They shall have free and easy access to the courts of justice in pursuit and de-
fence of their rights; they shall be at liberty equally with native subjects to choose
and employ lawyers, advocates, and representatives to pursue and defend their rights
before such courts, and in all other matters connected with the administration of jus-
tice they shall enjoy all the rights and privileges enjoyed by native subjects.
In whatever relates to rights of residence and travel ; to the possession of goods
and effects of any kind; to the succession to personal estate, by will or otherwise, and
the disposal of property of any sort in any manner whatsoever which they may law-
fully acquire, the subjects of each contracting party shall enjoy in the dominions and
possessions of the other the same privileges, liberties, and rights, and shall be subject
to no higher imposts or charges in these respects than native subjects, or subjects or
citizens of the most favoured nation. The subjects of each of the contracting parties
shall enjoy in the dominions and possessions of the other entire liberty of conscience,
and, subject to the laws, ordinances, and regulations, shall enjoy the right of private
or public exercise of their worship, and also the right of burying their rcs]iective
countrymen according to their religio\is customs, in such suitable and convenient
places as may be established and maintained for that purpose.
They shall not be compelled, under any pretext whatsoever, to pay any charges or
taxes other or higher than those that arc. or may be, paid by native subjects, or sub-
jects Or citizens of the most favoured nation.
ARTICLE n.
The subjects of either of the contracting parties residing in the dominions and
possessions of the other shall be exempted from all compulsory- military service what-
soever, whether in the army, navy, national guard, or militia; from all contributions
cniXESE Ayo .y.i/'Ayf.s/; immioratiox 125
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
iiiilK)sed in lieu of personal service; and from all forced loans or military exaef.ions
or contributions.
ARTICLE III.
There shall be reciprocal freedom of commerce and navigation between the
dominions and possessions of the two high contracting parties.
The subjects of each of the high contracting parties may trade in any part of the
dominions and possessions of the other by wholesale or retail in all kinds of produce,
manufactures, and merchandise of lawful commerce, eother in person or by agents,
singly, or in partnerships with foreigners or native subjects; and they may there, own
or hire and occupy the houses, manufactories, warehouses, shops, and premises which
may be necessary for them, and lease land for residential and commercial purposes,
conforming themselves to the laws, police and customs regulations of the country like
native subjects.
They shall have liberty freely to come with their ships and cargoes to all places,
ports, and rivers in the dominions and possessions of the other which are or may be
opened to foreign commerce, and shall enjoy, respectively, the same treatment in mat-
ters of commerce and navigation as native subjects, or subjects or citizens of the most
favoured nation, without having to pay taxes, imposts, or duties, of whatever nature
or under whatever denominations, levied in the name or for the profit of the govern-
ment, public functionaries, private individuals, corporations, or establishments of any
kind, other or greater than those paid by native subjects, or subjects or citizens of the
most favoured nation, subject always to the laws, ordinances, and regulations of each
country.
ARTICLE IV.
The dwellings, manufactories, warehouses, and shops of the subjects of each of the
high contracting parties in the dominions and possessions of the other, and all pre-
mises appertaining thereto destined for purposes of residence of commerce, shall be
respected.
It shall not be allowable to proceed to make a search of. or a domiciliary visit to
such dwellings and premises, or to examine or inspect books, papers, or accounts, ex-
cept under the conditions and with the forms prescribed by the laws, ordinances, and
regulations for subjects of the country.
ARTICLE V.
No other or higher duties shall be imposed on the importation into the dominions
and possessions of Her Britannic Majesty of any article, the produce or manufacture
of the dominions and possessions of His Majesty the Emperor of Japan, from what-
ever place arriving ; and no other or higher duties shall be imposed on the importation
into the dominions and possessions of His Majesty the Empeior of Japan of any.
article, the produce or manufacture of the dominions and possessions of Her Britan-.
nic Majesty, from whatever place arriving, than on the like article produced or
manufactured in any other foreign country; nor shall any prohibition be maintained
or imposed on the importation of any article, the produce or manufacture of the
dominions and possessions of either of the high contracting parties, into the dom-
inions and possessions of the other, from whatever place arriving, which shall not
equally extend to the importation of the like article, being the produce or manu-
facture of any other country. This last provision is not applicable to the sanitary
and other prohibitions occasioned Tsy the necessity of protecting the safety of persons,
or of cattle, or of plants useful to agriculture.
126 AyoLO-JM'AyKsK row t:\Tiox
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ARTICLE VI.
Xo Other or higher duties or charges shall be imposed iu the dominions and pos-
sessions of either of the high contracting parties on the exportation of any article tc^
the dominions and ix)ssessions of the other than such as are, or may be, payable on the
exportation of the like articles to any other foreign country, nor shall any prohibition
be imposed on the exportation of any article from the dominions and possessions of
either of the two contracting parties to the dominions and possessions of the other
which shall not equally extend to the exportation of the like articles to any other coun-
try.
-IRTICLE vn.
The subjects of each of the high contracting parties shall enjoy in the dominions
and possessions of the other exemption from all transit duties, and a perfect equality,
of treatment with native subjects in all that relates to warehousing, bounties, facili-
ties, and drawbacks.
ARTICLE Tin.
All articles which are or may be legally imjKirted into the ports of the doniiniuns
and possessions of His Majesty the Emperor of Japan in Japanese vessels may like-
wise be imported into those ports in British vessels, without being liable to any other
or higher duties or charges of whatever denomination than if such articles were im-
ported in Japanese vessels; and reciprocally, all articles which are or may be legally
imported into the port« of the dominions and possessions of Her Britannic Majesty in
British vessels may likewise be imported into those ports in Japanese vessels, without
being liable to any other or higher duties or charges of whatever denomination than
if such articles were imported in British vessels. Such reciprocal equality of treat-
ment shall take effect without distinction, whether such articles come directly from
the place of origin or from any other place.
In the same manner there shall be perfect equality of treatment in regard to ex-
portation, so that the same export duties shall be paid and the same bounties and
drawbacks allowed in the dominions and possessions of either of the high contracting
parties on the exportation of any article which is or may be legally exported there-
from, whether such exportation shall take place in Japanese or in British vessels, and
whatever may be the place of destination, whether a port of either of the contracting
parties or of any third jwwer.
ARTICLE IX
Xo duties of tonnage, harbour, pilotage, lighthouse, quarantine, or other similar
or corresponding duties of whatever nature or under whatever denomination, levied in
the name or for the profit of the government, p\iblic fiuictionaries. private individuals,
corporations, or establishments of any kind, shall be imposed in the ports of the domin-
ions and possessions of either country upon the vessels of the other country which
shall not equally and under the same conditions be imposed in the like cases on
national vessels in general or vessels of the most favoured nation. Such equality of
treatment shall apply reciprocally to the respective vessels, from whatever port or
place they may arrive, and whatever may be their place of destination.
ARTICLE X.
In all that regards the stationing, loading, and unloading of vessels in the ports,
basins, docks, "roadsteads, harbours, or rivers of the dominions and possessions of the
two coiintrie.*, no privilege shall be granted to national vessels which shall not be
equally granted to vessels of the other countrj-; the intention of the high contracting
rHl.XK.-ii: A\U .JArA\KSK JMillGRATloy 127
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
parties being that in this respect also the respective vessels shall be treated on the
footing of perfect equality.
ARTICLE XI.
The coasting trade of both the higli contracting partio< i^; excepted from the pro-
visions of the present treaty, and shall be regidatwl according to the laws, ordinances,
and regulations of .Japan and of (Jreat Britain, respectively. It is, however, under-
stood that Japanese subjects in the dominions and possessions of Her Britannic
ifajesty, and British subjects in the dominions and possessions of His Majesty the
Emperor of Japan, shall enjoy in this respect the rights which are or may be granted
under such laws, ordinances, and regulations to the subjects or citizens of any other
country.
A Japanese vessel laden in a foreign country with cargo destined for two or more
ports in the dominions and possessions of Her Britannic Majesty, and a British vessel
laden in a foreign country with cargo destined for two or more ports in the dominions
and possessions of His Majesty the Emperor of Japan, may discharge a portion of her
cargo at one port, and continue her voyage to the other port or ports of destination
where foreign trade is permitted, for the purpose of laiiding the remainder of her ori-
ginal cargo there, subject always to the laws and custom-house regulations of the two
countries.
The Japanese government, however, agrees to allow British vessels to continue,
as heretofore, for the period of duration of the present treaty, to carry cargo between
the existing open ports of the empire, excepting to or from the iwrts of Osaka, Xiigata
and Ebisu-minato.
ARTICLE Xn.
An ship of war or merchant-vessel of either of the high contracting parties which
may be compelled by stress of weather, or by reason of any other distress, to take shel-
ter in a port of the other, shall be at liberty to refit therein, to procure all necessary
supplies, and to put to sea again, without paying any dues other tlian such as would
be payable by national vessels. In case, however, the master of a merchant vessel
should be under the necessity of disposing of a part of his cargo in order to defray
the expenses, he shall be bound to conform to the regulations and tariffs of the place
to which he may have come.
If any ship of war or merchant vessel of one of the contracting parties should
run aground or be wrecked upon the coasts of the other, tlie local authorities shall
inform the consul-general, consul, vice-consul, or consular agent of the district of
the occurrence, or if there be no such consular officer, they shall inform the consul-
general, consul, vice-consul, or consular agent of the nearest district.
All proceedings relative to the salvage of Japanese vessels wrecked or cast on
shore in the territorial waters of Her Britannic Majesty shall take place in accord-
ance with the laws, ordinances, and regulations of Great Britain, and reciprocally, all
measures of salvage relative to British vessels wrecked or cast on shore in the terri-
torial waters of His Majesty the Emperor of Japan shall take place in accordance
with the laws, ordinances, and regidations of Japan.
Such stranded or wrecked ship or vessel, and all parts thereof, and all furnitures
and appurtenances belonging thereunto, and all goods and merchandise saved there-
from, including those which may have been cast into the sea, or the proceeds thereof,
if sold, as well as all papers found on board such stranded or wrecked ship or vessel,
shall be given up to the owners or their agents, when claimed by them. If such
owners or agents are not on the spot, the same shall be delivered to the respective
consuls-general, consuls, vice-consuls, or consular agents upon being claimed by them
within the i)eriod fixed by the laws of the country, and such consular officers, owners,
or agents shall pay only the expenses incurred in the preser\'ation of the property,
128 AyOLO-JAPAXESE COyTEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
together with the salvage or other expenses which would have been payable in the
es;se of a wreck of a national vessel.
The goods and merchandise saved from the wreck shall be exempt from all the
duties of the customs unless cleared for consumption, in which case they shall pay
the ordinary duties.
When a ship or vessel belonging to the subjects of one of the contracting parties
is stranded or wrecked in the territories of the other, the respective consuls-general,
consuls, vice-consuls, and consular agents shall be authorized, in case the owner or
master, or other agent, of the owner, is not present, to lend their official assistance
in order to afford the necessary assistance to the subjects of the respective states.
The same rule shall apply in ease the owner, master, or other agent is present, but
requires such assistance to be given.
ARTICLE xra.
All vessels which, according to Japanese law, are to be deemed Japanese vessels,
and all vessels, which, according to British law, are to be deemed British vessels, shall,
for the purpose of this treaty, be deemed Japanese and British vessels respectively.
ARTICLE xn'.
The consuls-general, consuls, vice-consuls, and consular agents of each of the
contracting parties, residing in the dominions and possessions of the other, shall
receive from the local authorities such assistance as can by law be given to them for
the recovery of deserters from the vessels of their respective countries.
It is understood that this stipulation shall not apply to the subjects of the
country where the desertion takes place.
ARTICLE XV.
The high contracting parties agree that, in all that concerns commerce and
navigation, any privilege, favour, or immunity which either contracting party has
actually granted, or may hereafter grant, to the government, ships, subjects, or citizens
of any other state, shall be extended immediately and unconditionally to the govern-
ment, ships, subjects, or citizens of the other contracting party, it being their inten-
tion that the trade and navigation of each country shall be placed, in all respects,
l\v the other on the footing of the most favoured nation.
ARTICLE XVI.
Each of the high contracting parties may appoint consuls-general, consuls, vice-
consuls, pro-consuls, and consular agents in all the ports, cities, and places of the
other, except in those where it may not be convenient to recognize such officers.
This exception, however, shall not be made in regard to one of the contracting
parties without being made likewise in regard to every other power.
The consuls-general, consuls, vice-consuls, pro-consuls, and consular agents may
exercise all functions, and shall enjoy all privileges, exemptions, and immunities
which are, or may hereafter be granted to consular officers of the most favoured nation.
ARTICLE XVII.
The subjects of each of the high contracting parties shall enjoy in the dominions
and possessions of the other the same protection as native subjects in regard to
patents, trade marks, and designs, upon fultihiient of tlie formalities prescribed by law.
CHINESE AND JAPANESE lilMiaitATIOy 129
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
ARTICLE XVIII.
Her Britannic Majesty's government, so far as they are concerned, give their
consent to the following arrangement, —
The several foreign settlements in Japan shall bo incorporated with the respec-
tive Japanese communes, and shall thenceforth form part of the general municipal
system of Japan.
The competent Japanese authorities shall thereupon assume all municipal obliga-
tions and duties in respect thereof, and the common funds and property, if any,
belonging to such settlements, shall at the same time be transferred to the said
Japanese authorities.
When such incorporation takes place the existing leases in perpetuity under
which jiroijerty is now held in the said settlements shall be confirmed, and no condi-
tions whatsoever other than those contained in such existing leases shall be imposed
ir» respect of such propert.v. It is, however, understood that the consular authorities
mentioned in the same are in all cases to be replaced by the Japanese authorities.
All lands which may jsreviously have been granted by the Japanese government
fiee of rent for the public purposes of the said settlements shall, subject to the rigtit
ci eminent domain, be jiermanently reserved free of all taxes and charges for the
public purposes for which they were originally set apart.
ARTICLE XIX.
The stipulations of the present treaty shall be applicable, so far as the laws
liermit, to all the colonies and foreign possessions of Her Britannic Majesty, esiept-
iug to those hereinafter named, that is to say, except to —
India, Victoria.
The Dominion of Canada, Queeuslaud,
Newfoundland. Tasmania,
The Cape, South Australia,
Natal Western Australia,
New South Wales, New Zealand.
Provided always that the stipulations of the present treaty shall be made applic-
able to any of the above-named colonies of foreign possession^ on whose behalf
notice to that effect shall have been given to the Japanese government by Her Brit-
annic Majesty's representative at Tokio within two years from the date of the
exchange of ratifications of the present treaty.
ARTICLE XX.
The present treaty shall, from the date it comes into force, be sub-tituted in
place of the conventions respectively of the 2-3rd day of the 8th month of the 7th
year of Kayei, corresponding to the 14th day of October, 1854, and of the 13th day
of the 5th month of the -^nd year of Keiou. corresponding to the 25th day of June,
1:^66. the txeaty of the 18th da.v of the 7th month of the 5th year of Ansei. corres-
ponding to the 26th day oi August, 18.JS, and all arrangements and agreements sub-
sidiary thereto concluded or existing between the high contracting purtue.-; ; and from
the same date such conventions, treaty arrangements and agreements shall cease to
be binding, and, in eonsequc u-e. the jurisdiction then exercised by British courts
in Japan, and all the exceptional iirivileges, exemptions and immunities then enjoyed
by British subjects as a part of or appurtenant to such jurisdiction, shall absolutely
and without any notice cease and determine, and tihereafter all such j\irisdiction
shall be assumed an.l exercised by Japanese courts.
74b— 9
130 AyGLO-JAPAyESE C0.VV£.V7'/0.Y
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ARTICLE XXT.
The present treaty shall not take effect until at least five years after its signa-
ture. It shall come into force one year after His Imperial Japanese Majesty's
government; shall have given notice to Her Britannic Majesty's government of its
■wish to have the same brought into operation. Such notice may he given at any
time after the expiration of four years from the date hereof. The treaty shall
remain in force for the .period of twelve years from the date it goes into operation.
Eitiher high contracting party shall have the right, at any time after eleven years
shall have elapsed from the date this treaty takes effect, to give notice to the other
of its intention to terminate the same, and at the expiration of twelve months after
such notice is given this treaty shall wholly cease and determine.
ARTICLE -X.XII.
The present treaty shall he ratified, and the ratifications thereof shall be
exchanged at Tokio as soon as possible, and not later than six months from the pre-
sent date.
In witness whereof the respective plenipotentaries have signed the same and
have affixed thereto the seal of their arms.
Done at London, in duplicate, this sixteenth day of July, in the year of our
Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety-four.
KI]\IBERLET.
AOKI.
Protocol signed at London, July 16, 189^.
The government of Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, and
Empress of India, and the government of His Majestjy the Emperor of Japan,
deeming it advisable in the interests of both countries to regulate certain special
matters of mutual concern, apart from the treaty of commerce and navigation
signed this day, have, through their respective plenipotitentaries, agreed upon the
following stipulations : —
1. It is agreed by the contjraeting parties that one month after the exchange of
the ratifications of the treay of commerce and navigation signed this day, the import
tariff hereunto annexed shall, subject to the provisions of article XXIII. of the
treaty of 1858 at present subsisting between the contracting parties, as long as the
said treaty remains in force and thereafter, subject to the provisions of articles V.
and XV. of the treaty signed this day, be applicable to the articles therein
enumerated, being the growth, produce or manufacture of the dominions and pos-
sessions of Her Britannic Majesty, upon importation into Japan. But nothing
contained in this protocol, or the tariff hereunto annexed, shall be held to limit or
qualify the right of the Japanese government to restrict or to prohibit the importa-
tion of adulterated dr\igs, luedicines, food or beverages, indecent or obscene prints,
paintings, books, cards, lithographic or other engravings, photographs, or any other
indecent or obscene articles; articles in violatdon of patent, trade mark or copyright
laws of Japan; or any other article which for sanitary reasons, or in view of public
security or morals, might offer any danger.
The ad valorem duties established by the said tariff shall, so far as ma.v be
deemed practicable, be converted into specific duties by a supplementary convention,
which shall be concluded between the two governments within six months from the
date of tliis protocol; the medium prices, as shown b,v the Japanese customs returns
during the six calendar months preceding the date of the present protocol with the
addition of the cost? of insurance and transp:>rtation from the place of purchase.
CHIXESE 4.VD JAPAyESE lilMJGRATIOy 131
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
j)ro(Juction or fabrication, to the port of discharge, as well as commission, if any,
bliall bo taken as the basis for such conversion. In the event of the supplementary
convention not having come into force before the expiration of the period fixed for
t;he said tariff to take effect, ad valorem duties in conformity with the rule recited
at the end of the said tariff shall, in the meantime, be levied.
In respect of articles not enumerated in the said tariff, the general statutory
tariff of Japan for the time being in force shall, from the same time, apply, subject,
as aforo.said, to the provisions of article XXlII. of the treaty of 1858, and articles
V. and XY. of the treaty signed this day respectively.
From the date the tariffs aforesaid t:ake effect, the import tariff now in operation
in Japan in respect of goods and merchandise imported into Japan b.v British sub-
jects shall cease to be binding.
In all other respects the stipulations of the existing treaties and conventions
shall be maintained unconditionally until the time when the treaty of commerce
and navigation signed this day comes into force.
2. The Japanese government, pending the opening of the country to British
subjects, agrees to extend the existing passport system in such a manner as to allow
British subjects, on the production of a certificate of recommendation from the Brit-
ish representative in Tokio, or from any of Her Majesty's consuls at the open ports
in Japan, to obtain upon application passports available for any part of the country,
and for any period not exceeding twelve months, from the Imiterial Japanese Foreign
Office in Tokio, or from the chief authorities in the prefecture in which an open port
is situated ; it being understood that the existing rules and regulations governing
British subjects who visit the interior of the empire are to be maintained.
3. The Japanese government imdertakes, before the cessation of British consular
jurisdiction in Japan, to join the international conventions for the protection of
industrial proj-verty and copyright.
4. It is understood between the two high contracting parties that, if Japan thiid<
it necessary at any time to levy an additional duty on the production or manufac-
ture of refined sugar in Japan, an increased customs duty equivalent in amount
may be levied on British refined sugar when imported into Japan, so long as such
additional excise tax or inland dut^y continues to be raised.
Provided always that British refined sugar shall in this respect be entitled to the
treatment accorded to refined sugar being the produce or manufacture of the most
favoured nation. »
5. The undersigned plenipotentiaries have agreed that this protocol shall be sub-
mitted to the two high contracting parties at the same time as the treaty of commerce
and navigation, signed this day, and that when the said treaty is ratified the agree-
ments contained in the protocol shall also equally be considered as approved, without
the necessity of a further formal ratification.
It is also agreed that this protocol shall terminate at the same time the said
treaty ceases to be binding.
In witness whereof the respective plenipotentiaries have signed the same, and have
affixed thereto the seal of their arms.
Done at London, in duplicate, this sixteenth day of July, in the year of our Lord
one thousand eight hundred and ninety-four.
KIMBERLEY,
AOKI.
74b— 9J
AXGLO-JAPANESE CONVENTIOy
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
ANNEX. (tariff.)
Ad valorem
Articles. Kates of duty
Per cent.
Caoutcliouk, manufacture of 10
Cement, Portland 5
Cotton —
Yams 8
Tissues of all sorts, plain or mixed with tissues of flax,
hemp, or other fibre, including wool, the cotton.
however, predominating 10
Glass, window, ordinary —
(a) Uucoloured and imstaiued 8
(h) Coloured, stained, or ground 10
Hats, including also hats of felt 10
Indigo, dry 10
Iron and steel —
Pig and ingot 5
Eails 5
Bar. rod, plnte. and sheet 7J
Tinnetl plates 10
Galvanized sheet 10
Pipes and tubes 10
Lead, pig. ingot, and slab 5.
Leather-
Sole 15
Other kinds 10
Linen —
Yarns 8
Tissues 10
Mercury or quicksilver 5
ililk, condensed or dessicated 5
Nails, iron 10
Oil, paraffin 10
P^nt in oil 10
Paper, printing 10
Refined sugar 10
Salti^etre 5
Screws, bolts, and nuts, iron 10
Silk, satins, and silk and cotton mixtures 15
Tin-
Block, pig, and slab 5
Plates 10
Wax, paraffin 5
Wire-
Telegraph 5
Iron and steel, and small rod iron and steel not exceed-
ing ] inch in dianiotcr 10
inch in diameter 10
Woollen and worsted^ —
Yarns 8
Tissues of all sorts, plain or mixed with otlier material.
the wool, however, predominating 10
Yarns of all sorts, not specially provided for 10
Cfl/\i:.sA.' A\o ./ai'.im:si-: iMMiaFMioy
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Articles.
Zinc-
Block, pig, and slab
Sheet
Ad valorem
Rates of duty.
Per Cent.
5
7*
133
PiuJe for calculating 'ad valorem' Duties
Ln]X)rt duties pa.vable ad valorem under this tariff shall l.c calculated on the actual
cost of the articles at the place of purchase, production, or fabrication, with the addi-
tion of the cost of insurance and transportation from the place of purchase, produc-
tion, or fabrication, to the port of discharge, as well as commission, if any exists.
EXCHANGE OF NOTES.
The Earl of Kimherley to Viscount Aohi.
Foreign Office, July 16, 1804.
Sir, — With reference to article XIX. of the treaty betwen Great Britain and
Japan, signed this day, in view of the fact that some of the British colonies and for-
eign possessions enumerated in that article might be prL^vented from acceding to the
present treaty b.v reason of their inability to accept the stipulations relating to mili-
tary service contained in article II. of the said treaty, and in order to avoid future
7iiisunderstandings, Her Majesty's government request from the government of Japan
an assurance that any of the said British colonies and possessions may accede to the
present treaty under the condition that, notwithstanding such accession, they shall not
be bound by the stipulations of article II.
KniBERLET.
Viscount Aol-i to the Earl of Kimierley.
m Japanese Legation, London, July 16, 1894.
■ Mv Lord, — In reply to the note of Her Majesty's government referring to
I article XIX. of the treaty between Great Britain and Japan, signed this day, and re-
B questing, for the reasons given in the said note, an assurance that any of the British
■ colonies and foreign possessions enumerated in that article may accede to the present
I treaty mider the condition that, notwithstanding such accession, they shall not be
I bound by the stipulations of article II., the government of Japan hereby give the as-
■ surance desired.
l Aoia.
I
Viscount Aohi to the Earl of Kimherley.
Japanese Legation, London, July 16, 1894.
My Lord, — The undersigned. Envoy Extraordinarj- and ilinister Pleniipotentiary
of His Majesty the Emperior of Japan, in virtue of special authorization from Hi3
Imperial Japanese ilajesty's government, has the honour to announce to Her Britannic
Majesty's principal Secretary of State for Fereign Affairs, that the Imperial Japanese
government, recognizing the advantage of having the codes of the empire which have
already been promulgated in actual operation when the treaty stipulations at present
subsisting between the government of Japan and that of Great Britain cease to^ be
binding, engage not to give the notice provided for by the iirst paragraph of article
134 AXGLO-JAPAyESE CONTE^TIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
XXI. of the treaty of oommeroe and navigation, signed this day. until those por-
tions of said codes which are now in abeyance are brought into actual force.
The undersigned avails, &e.
AOKI.
1360J
Downing Street, February 17, 1896.
The Officer Administering the Government of Canada.
Sir, — With reference to my predecessor's circular despatch of December 31, 1894,
I have the honour to transmit to you, for publication in the colony under your gov-
ernment, a copy of a convention between Great Britain and Japan, signed at Tokio,
July 16, 1395, supplementary to the treaty of commerce and navigation between the
two countries of July 16, 1894.
J. CHAilBERLAIX.
SUPPLEMENTARY COXVEXTIOX BETWEEX GREAT BRITAIX AXD
JAPAX RESPECTIXG THE DUTIES TO BE CHARGED OX
BRITISH GOODS IMPORTED IXTO JAPAX.
Signed at Tokio. July 16, 1895.
[Batifications exchanged at Tokio, November 21, 1895.1
Whereas, by the protocol signed at London on July 16, 1894, it was agreed be-
tween the government of Her Britannic Majesty and the government of His Majesty
the Emperor of Japan that the ad valorem duties of the tariff annexed to the afore-
said protocol should, so far as might be deemed practicable, be converted into specific
duties by means of a supplementary convention, to be concluded between the two
governments within six months from the date of that protocol; and
Whereas, this period was extended by subsequent arrangement;
The high contracting parties have appointed as their plenipotentiaries to conclude
a convention for this purpose, that is to say: —
Her Britannic Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland, Empress of India, Gerard Augustus Lowther, Her Brittanic Majesty's Charge-
d' Affaires;
And His Majesty the Emperor of Japan, Marquis Saionzi Kimmochi, first class
of the Order of the Sacred Treasure, His Imperial Majesty's Minister of State for
Education, and Acting Minister of State for Foreign Affairs;
Who, having communicated to each other their respective full powers, found in
good and due form, have agreed upon and concluded the following articles : —
1. The tariff annexed to this convention shall be substituted for the ad valorem
tariff annexed to the aforesaid protocol of July 16, 1894; it shall be subject to all
stipulations contained in article 1 of that protocol, in so far as these are applicable,
and it shall come in force one month after the exchange of the ratifications of this
convention.
2. The specific duties established by this convention shall be subject to triennial
readjustment. Such readjustment shall be based on the difference between the average
of the two quarterly rates of exchange adopted by the Japanese customs during the six
months ending June 30. 1894, and the average of the rates of exchange adopted b.v the
Japanese customs for the four quarters preceding that in which each successive period
of three years expires.
CHiyESE AND JAP.iXESE lUMIGRATIOy 135
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
The schedule of readjusted duties shall be published by the Japanese government
three months in advance, and shall take effect immediately upon the expiration of the
said period.
It is understood between the high contracting parties that the operation of this
stipulation shall be subject to the acceptance of a similar arrangement by the other
powers with whom conventional tariffs are now being negotiated by Japan.
3. The quarterly rates of exchange mentioned in the preceding article are the
rates determining the comparative values, as entered in the quarterly tables published
by the Japanese Department of Finance, of the present Japanese silver yen on the
one hand, and of the English pound sterling on the other.
4. The present convention shall have the same duration as the treaty and protocol
concluded on July 16, 1S94, of which it is a complement.
5. The present convention shall be ratified, and the ratifications shall be ex-
changed at Tokio as soon as possible, and not later than six months from the present
date.
Done at Tokio, in duplicate, this 16th day of July, 1895.
GERAED AUGUSTUS LOWTHER.
MARQUIS SAIOXZI.
ANXEX.
Tariff.
No. .\rtioles. Duty (yen).
1. Caoutchouc, manufacture of ad valorem 10 per cent.
2. Cement, Portland 100 catties 0-065
3. Cotton yarns, plain or dyed '' 4 180
Cotton tissues —
4. Drills square yard 0'016
5. Duck " 0 -053
6. Handkerchiefs in the piece " 0 -Oil
Y. Prints " 0-012
8. Satieens, plain, fignTed or printed, brocades,
Italians and figured shirting. . square yard 0-017
9. Shirtings, dye<l " 0 •'^13
10. '■ grey " 0-006
11. " twilled " 0-011
12. " white or bleached .... " 0 :010
13. T-cloths " 0-009
14. Turkey and cambrics " 0 -012
15. Velvets or velveteens '■ 0 -041
16. Victoria lawns '• 0-006
17. All other sorts of pure cotton tissues, and all
tissues of cotton mixed with flax, hemp, or
other fibre, including wool, the cotton,
however, predominating in weight, not
specially provided for in this
tariff ad valorem 10 per cent.
XoTE. — It is expressly understood that ready-made
clothing and other made-up articles are not
included under the heading of cotton tissues.
18. Glass, window, ordinary —
(a) Uncoloured and unstained .. ..100 sq. ft. 0-302
(h) Coloured, stained, and ground, .ad valorem 10 per cent.
19. Hats, including also hats of felt .... " 10 per cent.
136 AyvLO-JAPAyESE COSVESTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
■ 20. ludigo, Jry 100 catties 1:2 -053
Iron and mild steel —
21. Pig and ingot ■' 0-0S3
22. Bar and rod, exceeding .J-incli iu diame-
ter 100 catties 0-261
23. Nails, including spikes, sprigs, tacks, and
brads —
(a) Plain 100 catties 0-573
(h) Galvanized ad valorem 10 per cent.
24. Pipes and tubes " 10 per cent.
25. Plate and sheet 100 catties O.20r)
2(). Rails •' 0 129
27. Screws, bolts, and nuts, plain and gal-
vanized ad valorem 10 jnt cent.
28. Sheet, galvanized, both plain and corru-
gated ino catties 0 740
29. Tinned plates—
(a) Ordinary 100 catties 0-mi
(b) Crystallized ad valorem 10 iicr cent.
30. Wire, and small rod not exceeding l-inch in
diameter 100 catties 0-503
31. Wire, telegraph or galvanized.. .. "' 0-256
Note. — By the term 'mild steel,' as used in this
tariff is undei-stood mild steel manufactured
by the Siemens, Bessemer, 'Basic, or similar
processes, and approximating in value to iron
of the same class in this tariff.
32. Lead, pig, ingot and slab 100 catties 0-316
33. Leather-
ed) Sole " 5 -690
(6) Other kinds (7(7 valorem 10 per cent.
31. Linen yarn.s, plain nr dyed 100 catties 6-527
Linen tissues —
35. Canvas S(]uar(^ yard 0.047
36. All other sorts ad valorem 10 per cent.
Note. — It is expre.s.sly understood that ready-made
clothing and other made-up articles are not
included under the heading of linen tissues.
37. ^Mercury or quicksilver TOO catties 5-048
38. Milk, condensed or desiccated <loz. 1 lb. tins 0-123
and proportionately for tins of other weights.
39. Oil. paraffin ad valorem 10 jicr cent.
40. Paint in oil 100 catties 1-304
41. Paper, printing " 1:163
42. Saltpetre (nitrate of potash) " 0 -490
43. Silk-faced cotton satins ad valorem 15 ]i(r cent.
Note. — It is expressly undlfrstood that all other
mixed tissues of cotton and silk, and of wool
and silk, where the cotton or wool predomin-
ates in weight, are to be classed for duty under
Nos. 17 and 61 of this tariff respectively.
Steel (other than mild steel) —
44. Ingot nd valorem 5 jvr cent.
4.'i. Bar, rod. plate, and sheet " 71 per cent.
46. Wire, and small rod not exceeding {-inch in
diameter 100 catties 1 :R19
CHiyEifi; A.\D .lArAXtat: iMMiijK.irwy 137
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
47. Sugar, refilled —
(n) No. 15 to No. 20, inclusive, Dutch stand-
ard in colour 100 catties 0:748
(/j) Above Xo. 20, Dutch standard in
colour 100 catties 0-827
Tin—
48. Block, pig and .<!iil, " 1 -992
49. Plates ad valorem 10 per cent.
50. Wax. paraffin 100 catties 0-.544
51. Woollen and worsted yarns, plain or
.lyi.l 100 catties 9-169
Woollen and worsted tissues, pure or mixed with
other material —
52. Alpacas square yard i)-075
53. Blanketing- and whipped blankets in plain
weave TOO catties 7 458
54. Buntings square yard O-O.'il
55. Cloth—
(a) Wholly of woollen or worsted yarn, or
of woollen or worsted yarns, such as
broad, narrow, and anny cloth, cassi-
nieres, twteeds and worsted coat-
ings square yard 0;093
(h) In part of woollen or worsted yarn
and in part of cotton yarn, such as
pilot, president, and union
cloth .square yard 0-039
56. Flannels " 0-044
57. Italian cloth " 0-029
58. Long ells " 0-036
59. Monsseline do laine " 0-021
60. Serges —
(a) Where the warp is worsteil and the
weft wmillen square yard 0-056
(6) All other kinds ad valorem 10 per cent.
61. All other sorts, pure or mixed with other ma-
terial, the wool, however, predominating
in weight, not specially provided for in this
tariff ad valorem 10 per cent.
Note. — It is expressly understood that ready-made
clothinjr and other made-up articles are not
inchuHed under the heading of woollen and
worsted tissues.
G2. Yarns, all sorts, not specially provided for in this
tariff ad valorem 10 per rent.
Zinc —
63. Block, pig and slab 100 catties 0-151
64. Sheet " 0 -928
WEIGHTS, MEASURES AND COINS.
The catty-mentioned in this tariff is the Japanese weight. It is equal to 600
grammes of the metric system of weights, or 1 -32277 lbs. English avoirdupois
weight-.
The pound is the English avoirdupois weight.
138 AXGLO-JAPANESE COyTEXTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190&
The square yard and square foot are the English imperial surface measures.
The yen is the present Japanese silver yen of 900 finenes.s and 416 grains in
RILE FOR CALCIL.^TIN'G ' AD VALOREM ' DUTIES.
Import duties payable ad valorem nnder this tariff shall be calculated on the actual
cost of the articles at the place of purchase, production, or fabrication, with the addi-
tion of the cost of insurance and transportation from the place of purchase, produc-
tion, or fabrication, to the port of discharge, as well as commission, if any exists.
RILE FOR MEASIREMENT OF TISSUES.
In determining the dutiable width of any tissue the customs shall discard all frac-
tions of an inch not exceeding half an inch, and shall count as a full inch all fractions
exceeding half an inch.
Note. — It is understood that selvedges shall not be included in the measurement
of tissues.
1352J
Downing Street, February 20, 1896.
Governor General,
The Right Honourable the Earl of Aberdeen, P.C., G.C.M.G.,
itc, (tc, &c.
My Lord, — With reference to Sir H. Strong's despatch Xo. 199, of August 6, on
the subject of the adhesion of Canada to the commercial treaty between this country
and Japan, I have the honour to transmit to Tour Lordship a copy of a letter from the
Foreign Office in reply to one suggesting that Her Majesty's representative at Tokio
should ascertain whether the Japanese government would be willing to adopt the pro-
posals of ,vour government.
I shall be glad to be informed at an early date whether it is desired that the ad-
hesion of Canada to the treaty should be notified to the Japanese government, the time
for notifying adhesions expiring on August 25 next.
J. CHAifBERLAIX.
Foreign Office, February 10, 189G.
The Under Secretary of State,
Colonial Office.
Sir, — With reference to your letter August 2G respecting the adhesion of British
colonies to the treaty of commerce between this country and Japan, I am directed by
the Marquis of Salisbury to acquaint you, for Mr. Chamberlain's information, that a
tclcgnini has been received from Sir E. Satow, to whom instructions were sent in ac-
cordance with the terms of your letter.
Sir E. Satow states that after nuicli delay the Japanese government have expressed
their willingness to admit a proviso similar to that made with the United States, but
without the mention of labourers.
They also stipulate, for the termination of the treaty, so far as the colonies are
concerned, on six months' notice from either side.
Sir E. Satow has pointed out that this is less than was originally conceded to the
United States, whose treaty was to last for eleven years, and has asked the Japanese
government to reconsider the question.
FRANCIS BPIRTIE.
CHiyESE AXD JAI'AXFfiE lililiaRXTloy 139
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
15S6.J
Telegram.
Mr. Chamberlain to Earl of .Aberdeen.
LoxDo.v, July 15, 1896.
Does your government adhere to Japanese treaty? Answer urgently required.
Report of the Minister of Trade and Commerce upon Treaty Xotice trifh Japan.
Department of Trade and Commerce,
Ottawa, July 29, 1896.
The undersigned. Minister of Trade and Commerce, has the honour to acknow-
ledge the receipt of Privy Council reference Xo. 715 J : being a copy of a circular
from the Colonial Office, of date December 31. addressed to His Excellency the
Governor General, covering a copy of a treaty of eonmierce and navigation between
Great Britain and Japan, signed at London on July 16, 1894, the ratifications of
which were exchanged at Tokio on August 25, 189-1, and of Privy Council reference
No. 1360 J., being a copy of a circular from the Colonial office to His Excellency the
Governor General of date February 17, 1896, referring to despatch of December 31,
1S94. and transmitting a copy of a convention between Great Britain and Japan,
signed at Tokio. July 16. 1895. supplementary to the treaty of commerce and naviga-
tion between the two countries of July 16, 1894, first above referred to. In th-3
circular first above referred to attention is called to article XIX of the treaty,
which provides that if it is desired that the Dominion of Canada should come within
the operations of the treaty, notice to that effect must be given to the Japanese
government within two years from the date of the exchange of ratification.
The minister has carefully considered the provisions of the treaty as trans-
mitted and has also taken communication of correspondence on the subject which has
taken place between the Canadian government and the imperial authorities and the
Japanese government, as transmitted under Pri\7- Council references : —
Xo. 1352 J., being a copy of a communication from the Right Honourable the
Secretary of State for the Colonies to His Excellency the Governor General, of date
February 20, 1896.
Xo. 1405 J., being a copy of a confidential despatch from the Right Honourable
the Secretary of State for the Colonies to His Excellency the Governor General, of
date March 18, 1896.
Xo. 1475 J., being a copy of a further confidential despatch on the subject from
the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies to His Excellency the
Governor General, of date April 21, 1896.
Xo. 1506 J., being a further confidential despatch from the Colonial Office to His
E.xcellency the Governor General of date May 14, 1896.
Xo. 1563 J., being a further confidential despateh from the Right Honourable the
Secretary of State for the Colonies to His E.xcellency the Governor General, of date
June 19, 1896 — all having reference to the treaty in question.
Xo. 1586 J., being a copy of a cablegram from the Colonial Ofiice to His Excel-
lency the Governor General of date July 15. 1896, asking whether His Excellency's
government will adhere to the Japanese treaty and stating that an answer is urgently
required.
The minister in reporting thereon has the honour to submit for the consideration
of His Excellency the Governor General in Council that while he fully approves of
the general provisions of the treaty as modified, yet considering the interpretation
put by Her Majesty's government as well as by those governments interested upon the
140
AXGLO-JAPA y'ESE COX 1 f.VJ/O V
7-8 EDWARD VI!., A. 1908
intent and meaning of the "most favonred nation clauses' as they appear in tieaties
between Great Britain and foreign eoutries, which interpretation under existinj?
circumstances would be held to be binding \ipon the Dominion of Canada, and in
view of the provisions contained in article V. of the said treaty, and of question?
arising as to the exact meaning of the provisions contained in articles VIII., 1*X.,
XI., and XV., and considering that apparently under the provisions of these several
articles, the Dominion would be further hampered in any effort that might be made
in connection with the negotiation of arrangements under which any concessions
made for special equivalents granted by reason thereof to or with other countries,
he does not deem it advisable that the Dominion should become a party to or be
bound by the provisions of the treaty in question, he therefore respectfully recom-
mends that if approved His Excellency the Governor General be moved to comn'iuni-
cate by cable to the Eight Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies the
substance of the minute of Council founded hereon, in order that the Japanese
government may be advised thereof with as little delay as possible and within the
time limit, as jjer article XIX. of the said treaty.
R J. CARTWKIGHT.
Extract from a Bcport of the Committee of the Honourahle the Privy Council,
approved hy the Governor General on October 13, 1896.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration a confidential
despatch, hereto attaehefl, dated September 16, 1896, from the Secretary of State for
the Colonies, having reference to previous correspondence concerning the commercial
treaty of 1804, between Great Britain and Japan.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce, to whom the said despatch was referrel,
observes that it is stated therein that notes were exchanged with the Japanese govern-
ment on August 24, 1896, for a year's extension of time, within which the colonies
referred to, or named in the treaty, could signify their accession thereto. It is
further stated in the despatch that certain freedom of action with regard to the
restriction of the influx of the Japanese artisan class, would be conditionally conceded
by the Japanese government ; and the Secretary of State desires to be informed, as
early as possible, whether, in view of the concession so made by the Japanese govern-
ment, the government of Canada desire to adhere to the treaty.
The minister desires to draw attention to his report of date July 29, 1896, upon
tlis question, and to state that he deems it advisable to adhere to the recommenda-
tion made in such report, to the effect that, under existing circumstances, it is not
expedient that the government of Canada should become a party to the treaty ..i
q>iestion.
The Committee advi.se that Your Excellency be moved to forward a certified copy
of the said report to the Kiglit Honourable the principal Secretary of State for thj
Colonies.
All of which is respectfully -^uliniitted for Your Excellcu<-y's approval.
RODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
Colonial Office to the Governor General.
Downing Street, November IT, 1896.
Governor General, &c., &c.
My Loud, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Your Lon!.«hip's
confidential dcsi)at('ii of the I'^inl ultimo, inclosing a minute of the Privy Coiuicil
v.ith reference to the connncrcial treaty of 1894 between this co\nitry and Japan, and
CHIXESE AVD JAPANESE IMMlCRATlOy 141
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
to inform you that a copy of the report of the Minister of Trade and Commerce,
dated July 29, 1890, which is referred to in the Privy Council minute, does not appear
to have been forwarded to this department. I shall be glad if Tour Lordship will
be good enough to furnish nic with a copy of tne report in question.
J. CHAMBERLArX.
Extracl from a Report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council,
(iliprored by the Governor General on December 23, 189''.
The committee have had under consideration a confidential despatch from the
Eight Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies, dated November 17, 1896,
acknowledging the receipt of the approved minute of Council of October 13. 1896,
with reference to the commercial treaty of 1894, between Great Britain and Japan,
jind asking to be supplied with a copy of the report of the Minister of Trade ami
Commerce, dated July 29, 1896, which is referred to in the said minute.
The committee, on the recommendation of the Minister of Trade and Commerce,
to whom the said despatch has been referred, advise thatr Your Excellency be moved
to forward a copy of the said report of the ilinister of Trade and Commerce to the
Kight Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies for his information.
All of which is resiiectfully submitted for Your Excellency's approval.
KODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerk of the Privy CounciL
Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council, ap-
proved by the Governor General on January 23, 1397.
The Committe of the Privy Council have had under consideration a dospateh,
hereto attached, dated December 8, 1S96, from the Right Honourable Mr. Chamberlain
haviug reference to a previous despatch of September 16, 1896, referring to previous
correspondence concerning the commercial treaty of 1894 between Great Britain and
Japan.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce, to whom the first-mentioned despatch was
referred, observes that the despatch of December 8, 1896. above referred to covers a
copy of further despatch from Her Majesty's minister at Tckio respecting the terms
upon which those specified colonies which have not yet notified their adherence to the
treaty might become parties thereto.
The minister states that while there are many provisions in the treaty as modified
of which he fully approves, and while the views conceded by the Japanese government
OS expressed in the despatch from Her ifajesty's minister at Tokio. might be consid-
ered as doing away with some of the objections which the Canadian government had
to the treaty referred to, it covers but one ground, the most important objection still
existing, that is, the 'most favourefl nation clause.'
The minister in referring to his reixirt made in connection with the question of
adherence to the treaty, bearing date July 29. 1896. regrets that while the imperial
authorities adhere to the interpretation they place upon the 'most favoured nation
clause' in existing treaties, he cannot recommend that Canada should become a party
to the treaty now in question.
The committee advise that Your Excellency be moved to forward a certified copy
of this minute to the Right Honourable the Principal Secretary of State for the Col-
onies.
All of which is respectfully submitted for Your Excellency's approval.
RODOLPHE BOn)REAlI,
Clerl- of the Privy Cotincil.
142 AyGLO-JAPAyESE COSrESTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Certified copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by His
Excellency the Governor General on the 5th November, 1S9T.
The Committee of the Privy Council having had under consideration the annexed
memorandum from the Minister of Customs, dated Nov. 4, 1897, respecting the
admission of articles which are the growth, produce or manufacture of Japan to the
benefits of the reciprocal tariff, under the customs tariff, 1S9T, and concurring therein,
submit the same for Tour Excellency's approval.
RODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerh K)f the Privy Council.
Customs Department, Ottawa, November 4, 1897.
The undersigned, ilinist€r of Customs, has tne honour to report to His Excel-
lency the Governor General in Council, that section 17 of " The Customs Tariff, 1S97,'
provides as follows : —
' 1. When the customs tariff of any country admits the products of Canada on
terms which, on the whole are as favourable to Canada as the terms of the reciprocal
tariff herein referred to are to the countries to which it may apply, articles which are
the growth, produce or manufacture of such country, when imported direct therefrom,
may then be entered for duty, or taken out of warehouse for consumption in Canada,
at the reduced rates of duty provided in the reciprocal tariff set forth in schedule D
tf this Act.
' 2. Any question arising as to the countries entitled to the benefits of the recipro-
cal tariff shall be decided by the Controller of Customs, subject to the authority of
the Governor in Council.
' 3. The Governor in Council may extend the benefits of the reciprocal tariff to
any country intitled thereto by virtue of a treaty with Her Majesty.
' 4. The Controller of Customs may make such regulations as are necessary for
carrying out the intention of this section.'
That the undersigned has decided (subject to. the approval of the Governor in
Council and to take effect when so approved), that the customs tariff of Japan is
such as intitles articles which are the growth, produce or manufacture of that country
Ir the benefits of the reciprocal tariff, subject to the limitations mentioned in
schedule D of the said customs tariff, 1897.
He submits his action in this matter for the approval of His Excellency the
Governor General in Council.
WM. PATERSON,
Minister of Customs.
1705K
DowxiXG Street, December 2, 1899.
The Officer Administering the Government of Canada.
Sir, — With reference to the Marquis of Ripon's circular despatch of December
"1, 1894, inclosing copy of the treaty of commerce and navigation between Great
Britain and Japan, of July 16, 1894, I have the honour to inform you that, questions
having arisen respecting the status of Indian and colonial subjects of Her Majesty
residing in Japan as affected by that treaty, and also respecting the claim of British
colonies not parties to the treaty to the benefit.* of the tariff annexed to the protocol
of the same date, the matter has formed the subject of reference to the law officers of
the Crown, and the Marquis of Salisbury has informed Her Majesty's minister at
T<'kio, that in the opinion of Her Majesty's government article XIX of the treaty
CHINESE AND JAPANESE lililJGRATIOy 143
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
has not the effect of limiting the rights of British subjects connected with non-ailher-
ir,g colonies or possessions, as the inhabitants of such places are. generally, and not
locally merely, British subjects, and that the fair meaning of the treaty is that all
persons who by British law are recognized as possessing the rights of British citizen-
hip all over the world are entitled to the benefits of its stipulations, and that this test
includes the inhabitants — being British subjects — of all colonies and dependencies
whether they adhere to the treaty or not. Neither does article XIX discriminate
between different classes of British subjects, nor create a distinction unknown to
British law, and almost impossible of definition ; but its effect is merely to provide
that the privileges and obligations of the treaty shall not enure for the benefit of non-
adhering colonies and dependencies. For instance, the produce or manufacture of a
non-adhering colony or dependency would not be entitled to the tariff annexed to the
protocol which must be regarded as forming part of one arrangement with the treaty.
And Her Majesty's government have also been advised that the protocol with its
schedule must be read as applying, after the coming into force of the treaty of 1894,
only to such of the colonies and possessions enumerated iu article XIX as accede to
the treaty.
On the other hand British subjects, though residing iu or domiciled in colonies
or possessions which have not adhered, are entitled to the benefits of article XVii of
the treaty, and also of article II. of the international convention for the protection of
industrial property signed at Paris on March 20, 1883, to which Japan adhered on
July 15 last.
The first sentence of article II of the convention, copies of which were inclosed
ir Lord Derby's circular despatch of April IS, 1884. which runs as follows : ' Les
sujets ou citoyena de chaeun des etats contractants jouiront, dans tous les autres
etats de I'union en ee qui coneeme les brevets d'invention,les dessins ou modeles
industriels, les marques de fabrique ou de commerce et le nom commercial, des
avantages que les lois respectives accordent actuellement ou aecorderont par la suite
aux nationaus.' The right is conferred on those who are British subjects and is not
lost by their being resident or domiciled either in a foreign country or in a colony
which has not adhered. The right under the convention is also conferred by article
III. on foreigners domiciled in one of the contracting states. Of course domicile in
a non-adliering colony would not be effectual for this purpose, as the test is, in this
instance, local, not personal, as in the case of British subjects. This distinction is
also illustrated by articles TV and VI of the convention, which would not apply in
the case of non-adhering <iolonies.
J. CHAMBERLAIX.
Circular.
Downing Street, February 28, 1902.
The Officer Administering the Government of Canada.
Sir, — I have the honour to transmit to you, for the information of your govern-
ment, a copy of a parliamentary paper containing an agreement between Great Britain
and Japan, which was signed at London on January 30, 1902.
J. CHAMBERLAIX.
DESPATCH TO HIS MAJESTy's MINISTER AT TOKIO, FORWARDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN GREAT
BRITAIN AND JAPAN, OF JANUARY 30, 1902.
The Marquis of Lansdowne to Sir C. MaeDonald. (
Foreign Office, January 30. 1902.
Sir, — I have signed to-day with the Japanese minister, an agreement between
Great Britain and Japan, of which a copy is included in this dispatch.
This agreement may be regarded as the outcome of the events which have taken
place during the last two years in the far east, and of the part taken by Great Britain
and Japan iu dealing with them. >
144 AyGW-JAPAyESE COXVEXTWi'
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Throughout the troubles and complications which arose in China consequent upon
the Boxer outbreak and the attack upon the Peking legations, the two powers have been
in close and uninterrupted communication, and have been actuated by similar views.
We have each of us desired that the integrity and independence of the Chinese
empire should be preserved, that there should be no disturbance of the territorial s?a/((i:
quo either in China or in the adjoining regions, that all nations should, within those
regions, as well as within the limits of the Chinese empire be afforded equal opportu-
nities for the development of their commerce and industry, and that peace should not
only be restored, but should, for the future, be maintained.
From the frequent exchanges of views which have taken place between the two
governments and from the discovery that their far eastern policy was identical, it has
resulted that each side has expressed the desire that their common policy should find
expression in an international contract of binding valicHty.
We have thought it desirable to record in the preamble of that instrument the
main objects of our common policy in the far east, to which I have already referred,
and in the first article we join in entirely disclaiming any aggressive tendencies either
in China or Corea. We have, however, thought it necessarj' also to place on record the
view entertained by both the high contracting parties, that shoul,d their interests as
above described be endangered it will be admissible for either of them to take such
measures as may be indispensible in order to safeguard those interests, and words have
been added which will render it clear that such precautionary measures might become
necessary and might he legitimately taken, not only in the case of aggressive action or
of an actual attack by some other powei", but in the event of disturbances arising of a
character to necessitate the intervention of either of the high contracting parties for
the protection of the lives and property of its subjects.
The principal obligations undertaken mutunlly by the high contracting parties are
those of maintaining a strict neutrality in the event of either of them becoming in-
volved in war. and of coming to one another's assistance in the event of either of them
being confronted by the opposition of more than one hostile power. Under the remain-
ing provisions of the agreement the high contracting parties undertake that neither of
them will, without consultation with the other, enter into separate arrangements with
another jwwer to the prejudice of the interests described in the agreement, and that
whenever those interests are in jeopardy they will commimicate with one another fully
and frankly.
The concluding article has reference to the duration of the agreements which.
after five years, is terminable by either of the high contracting parties at one year's
notic«>
His ^lajesty's government have been largely influenced in their decision to enter
into this important contract by the conviction that it contains no provisions which can
be regarded as an indication of aggressive or self-seeking tendencies in the regions to
which it applies. It has been concluded purely as a measure of precaution, to be in-
voked, should occasion arise, in the defence of imjiortant British interests. It in no
way threatens the present position or the legitimate interests of other powers. On the
contrary that part of it which renders either of the high contracting parties liable to
be called upon by the other for assistance can o])erate only when one of the allies has
foimd himself obliged to go to war in defence of interests which are connnon to both,
when the circumstances in which he ha.s taken this step are such as to establish that
the quarrel has not been of his <iwn seeking, and when, being engaged in his own de-
fence he find.- himself threatened not by a single jiowcr. but Vi.v a hostile coalition.
His Majesty's government trust that the agreement may be foimd of mutual ad-
vantage to the two countries, that it will make for the preservation of peace, and that,
should peace unfortunately be broken, it will have the effect of restricting the area of
hostilities.
LANRDOWNE.
CBIXESE AM) ,IM'A\i:.^i: HI MlCUATlliy 145
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Inclosure.
Aorecmenl hclween Great Britniii and Japan, signed at London, Jamtary SO, 1903.
The govornmcnts of (Jreat Britain and Japan, aetnatod solely by a desire to main-
tain the status quo and general peaee in the extreme east, being moreover specially in-
terested in maintaining the indei)cndence and territorial integrity of the empire of
China and the empire of Corea and in securing equal opportunities in those countries
for the commerce and industry of all nations, hereby agree as follows: —
ARTICLE I.
The high contracting parties having mutually recognized the indei)endence of
Cliina and of Corea, declare t hcmselves to be entirely uninfluenced by an.y aggressive
tendencies in either country. Having in view, however, their special interests, of
which those of Great Britain relate principally to China, while Japan, in addition to
the intercuts which she possesses in China, is interested in a peculiar degree politically
as well as commercially and industrially in Corea, the high contracting parties recog-
nize that it will be admissible for either of them to take such measures as may be in-
dispensible in order to safeguard those interests if threatened either by the aggressive
action of any other power, or by di.sturbaneei; arising in China or Corea, and necessi-
tating the intervention of either of the high contracting parties for the protection of
the lives and propert.v of its subjects.
ARTICLE n.
If either Great Britain or Japan,, in the defence of their respective interests as
above described, sihould become involved in war with another power, the other high
contracting party will maintain a strict neutrality, and use its efforts to prevent other
powers from joining in hostilities against its all.v.
ARTICLE in. •
If in the al>ove event any other power or powers should join in hostilities against
that ally, the other high contracting party will come to its assistance and will conduct
the war in common, and make peace in mutual agreement with it.
ARTICLE IV.
The high contracting parties agree that neither of them will, without consulting
the other, enter into separate arrangements with another ower to the prejudice of the
interests above described.
ARTICLE V.
Whenever, in the opinion of either Great Britain or Japan, the above-mentioned
interests are in jeopardy, the two governments will communicate with one another
fully and frankly.
ARTICLE VI,
The present agreement shall come into effect immediately after the date of its
signature and remain in force for five years from that date.
In case neither of the high contracting parties should have notified twelve months
before the expiration of the said five years the intention of terminating it, it shall
remain binding until the expiration of one ,vear from the day on which either of the
high contracting parties shall have denounced it. But if. when the date fixed for its
expiration arrives, either ally is actually engaged in war, the alliance shall, ipso facto,
continue until peace is concluded.
T4b— 10
146 AyaLO-JAPASE,SE COWEMIOX
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
In faith whereof the undersigned, duly authorized by their respective govern-
ments have signed this agreement, and have affixed thereto their seals.
Done in duplicate at London, January 30, rj02.
LANSDOWNE,
His Britannic ^Majesty's Principal
Secretary of State for Foreign
Afl'airs.
HAYASHI,
Envoy Extraordinary and Minister
Plenipotentiary of His Majesty
the Emperor of Japan at the
Court of St. James.'
From Lord Grey to Mr. Lyttelton.
Government House, Ott.\w.\, June 7, 1905.
The Eight Honourable Alfred Lyttelton, P.C.,
&c., &c.,
Sir, — With reference to Sir Henry Strong-'s despatch of October 23, 189(5, and pre-
vious correspondence in regard to the Canadian government's decision not to adhere
to the treaty of commerce and navigation, concluded in 1894, between Great Britain
and Japan, I have the honour to inclose herewith a copy of an approved minute of the
Privy Council, intimating that obstacles which were considered to render the adhesion
of Canada to the treaty unadvisable have now been removed and requesting that steps
may be taken to ascertain whether the Japanese government would be prepared' to
admit the Dominion to a participation in the treaty.
GREY.
Extract fro m a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved hy the Gov-
ernor General on June 7, 1905.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce, to whom was referred the question of the
expediency of reopening negotiations with Japan to secure the admission of Canadian
goods in that country on the same terms as upon those imported from Great Britain,
submits as follows : —
At the time of the original treaty of commerce and navigation in 1894 between
Great Britain and Japan, it appears that Canada was invited to become a party thereto
but in view of certain conditions and possible complications it was deemed best at the
moment to decline participation. These obstacles have been now removed, and it is
understood informally that the Japanese government would not be unwilling to allow
Canada to become a party to the above treaty.
The committee advise that ITis Excellency be moved to ascertain whether the
Japanese government would be prepared to admit Canada to a participation in the said
treaty.
All which is respectfully .submitted for approval.
KODOLPIIE BOTTDREAU,
Clerk of the Privy Cortncil.
Mr. Secretary LyttUon to Lord Grey.
London, July 14, 1005.
My Lord, — Referring to your confidential despatch of June 7, should Japanese
government be informed that your government wishes to adhere to treaty, 1894, and
CHIXE.se A.\D JAPANESE IMillGRATlOy 147
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
supplonicntary convention of lSfl5. nnilcr same terms and conditions as Queensland in
InOT. which Japanese government then agreed to extend to any other colonies adhering
witliin prescribed period namely, (1) that stipulations contained in first and third
iirticles of treaty shall not in any way affect laws, ordinances and regulations with
regard to trade, immigration of labourers, artisans, police and public security which
are in force or hereafter may be enacted in Japan or in colony. (2) That treaty shall
cease to be binding as between Japan and colony at expiration of twelve months after
notice has been given on either side to desire to terminate same.
Or are your government prepared to adhere absolutely and without reserve as
would appear to be the case from speech of Minister of Agriculture in Canadian par-
liament, June 22? Please telegraph reply.
LYTTELTOX.
From Earl Grey to Mr. Lytlelton.
September 8. 1905.
Sir, — My Prime Minister crnestly hoped that you will press immediate entry of
Canada into Anglo-Japanese treaty.
GREY.
Mr. Secretary Lyttelton fo Lord Grey.
London, September 6, 1905
My Lord. — In reply to your telegram received to-day, please inform your Prime
Minister that before taking steps as regards adhesion of your government to commer-
cial treaty witli Japan, His Majesty's government awaiting repl.y to telegram of
July 14.
LYTTELTO,Nr.
From Governor General to Mr. Lyttelton.
Government House, Ottawa, September 26, 1905.
The Right Honourable Alfred Lyttelton, P.C,
&c., &c., &e.
Sir. — The Governor General had the honour to send you to-day a telegraphic
message in code, of which the following is a translation : —
■Referring to your telegram of July 14, responsible ministers prepared to adhere
to Japanese treaty, 1894, and supplementary convention of 1895, absolutely and •with-
out reserve. Minute of Council and despatch follow by mail.'
I now have the honour to inclose herewith copy of the minute of Council referred
to, upon which that message was founded.
H. E. TASCHEREAr,
Deputy of the Governor General.
Extract from a Export of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved hy the Gover-
nor General .on Septemher 26, 1905.
The committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration the annexed
report from the Secretary of State relative to Canada becoming a party to the treaty
of commerce and navigation between Great Britain and Japan, adopted in the year
1894, and supplementary convention, 1895.
The committee concurring in the said report, advise that His Excellency be moved
to forward a cable despatch to the Secretary of State for the Colonies advising him
that the government of Canada is prepared to adhere absolutely and without reserve
74b— 10 i
148 AXGLo-jAPAyEsE coyvEyTioy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
to the treaty of commerce and navigation made between Great Britain and Japan iu
1894, and supplementary convention signed at Tokio in July, 1895.
All which is respectfully submitted for His Excellency's approval.
EODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerh of the Privy CoumcU.
Ottawa, September 25. 1905.
The undersigned, the Secretary of State, has had under consideration the minute
of Council approved on June T last, advising, on the recommendation of the Minister
of Trade and Commerce that His Excellency be moved to ascertain whether the Japan-
ese government would be prepared to admit Canada to a participation in the existing
treaty between Great Britain and Japan, adopted in the year 1894, and supplementary
convention. 1895, and has had also under consideration the cable despatch from Mr.
Lyttelton to Earl Grey of July 14 last, inquiring whether the government of Canada
was prepared to adhere absolutely and without reserve to the treaty of 1894 and 1895,
or whether Canada desired to limit the terms of the treaty to the conditions made on
behalf of Queensland when accepting the Japanese treaty, which provided that the
stipulations contained in the first an d third articles of the treaty should not in any
way affect the laws, ordinances and regulations with regard to trade, immigration of
labourers, artisans, police and public security, which are in force or might hereafter
be enacted in Japan or Queensland. (2) limiting the treaty to a period of twelve
months after notice given on either side.
When the minute of Council, dated June 7, 1905, was approved, the judgment of
the Privy Council as expressed in that minute was that Canada was willing to become
a party to the treaty of 1894 and supplementary convention, 1895, without any reserve.
Since those dates Japan has enacted a law limiting immigration to foreign countries,
thus removing one of the objections that influenced the government of Canada in de-
clining to become a party to the treaty with Japan in 1897. It is doubtful whether
Japan would now agree to a treaty on any other basis than the proposals contained in
the original treaty. The undersigned therefore recommends that a cable despatch be
sent to Mr. Lyttelton advising him that the government of Canada is prepared to ad-
here absolutely and without reserve to the treaty of commerce and navigation made
between Great Britain and Japan in 1394 and supplementary convention signed at
Tokio in July. 1895.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
R. W. SCOTT.
Secretafy of State.
From Lord Grey to Mr. Lyttelton.
Ottawa, November 14, 1905.
Sir, — Referring to my despatch. No. 313. September 26, Japanese treaty, responsi-
ble ministers anxious for reply.
GREY.
From Mr. Lyttleton to LoM Grey.
London', November 16, 1905.
My Lord, — In reply to your telegram of yesterday's date and your despatch No.
313, of September 20, Japanese government propose sjx'cial convention providing
(■///.Vt'.Si; ASD JAP.iyEiSE IMMlaRATIOS 149
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
application to Canada of treaties of 1894 and convention of 1895. His Majesty's
ambassador at Tokio has been instnioted to send draft direct to you for consideration
of your goverinnent. Keport by telegram whether your ministers agree to its terms.
LYTTELTON.
His Majesty's Minister at Tohio, Japan, to Lord Grey. '
Tokio, November 19, 1903.
My Lord, — In obedience to instructions from His Majesty's Principal Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs, I recently approached the Japanese government with a
view to their consenting to the adhesion of Canada to the Anglo-Japanese treaty of
July 16, 1894, and to the supplementary convention of July 16, 1895.
I found the Japanese government quite prepared to take the necessary steps for
the application of the terms of the two agreements to the intercourse between Canada
and Jajjan, but in view of the expiration of the two years allowed by article XIX, of
the treaty of 1894, for the adhesion of British colonies, they thought that the desired
object could best be secured by the conclusion of a special convention.
They have now prepared a draft of theproposed convention, copy of which I have
the honour to transmit to Tour Lordship herewith.
A copy of this draft will be forwarded to the Marquis of Lansdowne by the Can-
adian Pacific mail, leaving Yokohama on the 24th instant.
CLAUDE M. MACDOXALD.
His Majesty the Emperor of Japan and His Majesty the King of the United King-
dom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas,
Emperor of India, being equally desirous of facilitating the commercial relations be-
tween Japan and Canada, have resolved to conclude a convention to that effect, and
have named as their respective plenipotentiaries : —
His Majesty the Emperor of Japan,
His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and
of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India,
who, having reciprocally communicated their full powers, found in good and due form,
have agreed as follows: —
ARTICLE I.
The two high contracting parties agree that the stipulations of the treaty of com-
merce and navigation between Japan and Great Britain, signed at London on the 16th
day of the 7th month of the 27th year of Meiji (corresponding to the 16th day of July,
1894). and of the supplementary convention between Japan and Great Britain, signed
at Tokio. on the 16th day of the 7th month of the 28th year of Meiji (corresponding to
the 16th day of July, 1895), shall be applied to the intercourse, commerce and naviga-
tion between the Empire of Japan and the British Dominion of Canada.
ARTICLE 11
The present convention shall be ratified and the ratification thereof shall be
excanged at Tokio as soon as possible. It shall come into effect immediately after the
exchange of ratifications, and shall remain in force until the expiration of six months
150 AXOWJAPANESE CO^'TEA^TION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
from the day on which one of the high contracting parties shall have announced the
intention of terminating it.
In witness whereof, the above-mentioned plenipotentiaries have signed the present
convention and have affixed thereto their seals.
Done in duplicate at Tokio, in the Japanese and English languages, this . ,. .day
of month of the 38th year of Meiji, corresponding to the day
of year one thousand nine hundred and five.
From Lord Grey to Mr. Lyttelton.
Ottawa, iCovember 24, 1905.
Sir, — Referring to your telegram of November 16, my responsible ministers beg to
reiterate that they agree to terms of treaty of 1894, and convention of 1895, with
Japan. They would urge that His Majesty's ambassador at Tokio be reminded to
forward immediately draft of si>ecial convention.
GREY.
' From Mr. Lyttelton to Lord Grey.
Downing Street, November 30, 1905.
My Lord, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your telegram of the
24th instant respecting the profwsed special convention with Japan providing for the
application to Canada of the treaty of 1894, and the convention of 1895.
2. I request you to explain to your ministers that the necessity for a special con-
vention arose from the fact that the period of the adhesion of Canada to the treaty of
1894 had expired; and although the substance of the proposed convention was tele-
graphed by His Majesty's ambassdor at Tokio, on the 3rd instant. His Majesty's gov-
ernment felt, in view of certain recent experience which it is not necessary for me to
explain, that it was advisable to see the full text before authorizing His Majesty's re-
presentative to sign the convention. A telegram was accordingly sent to Sir C. Mac-
donald on the 13th instant, instructing him to send home the draft by mail and at the
same time to send a copy direct to your government, as you were informed by tele-
garm on the 15th instant. Your ministers will probably by this time be in possession
of the copy.
ALFRED LYTTELTON.
From Lord Grey to Secretary of State for To/oh iV.s.
December 13, 1905.
My Lord. — Your despatch of November 30. Japanese treaty. Sir Wilfrid Laurior
has seen draft received from Sir Claude Macdonald and hope- final formalities will be
concluded as soon as possible.
GREY.
From Lord Etffin to Lord Grey.
LoxDOX, January 1, 1900.
Mv Lord, — Referring to your telegram of December 13, Japanese treaty, have
requested Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to telegraph to Tokio sign conven-
tion at once and to arrange for ratification at earliest possible date.
ELGIN.
CniVESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 151
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Lord Elgin io Lord Grcfi.
LrtNDOX, February 6, 1906.
Mv TiOiu), — Roforrins to iii.v tcles'''"!! of January 1. convention with Japan signed
January 31.
ELGIN.
From Lord Elffin io Lord Grey.
DowNixo Street, March 31, 1906.
My Lord, — With reference to my telegram of the 6tli ultimo, I have the honour to
transmit to you, to be laid before your ministers, the accompanying copies of correspon-
dence with the Foreign Office on the subject of the convention for the application to
trade and intercourse between Japan and Canada of the treaty between the United
Kingdom and Japan of July 16, 1801. and of the supplementary convention of July
16, 1895.
ELGIN.
Foreign Office, March -27, 1906.
Sir, — With reference to your letter of January 1 last, I am directed by Secretary
Sir Edward Grey, to transmit to you, to be laid before the Earl of Elgin, a copy of a
despatch from His Majesty's ambassador at Tokio, inclosing the convention for the
application to trade and intercourse between Japan and Canada of the treaty between
this country and Japan of July 16, 1894, and of the supplementary convention of July
16. 1895.
Printed copies of the English text of the convention are also inclosed.
I am to inquire whether, in Lord Elgin's opinion steps should now be taken to
prepare the King's ratification of the convention, to be forwarded to His Majesty's
ambassador at Tokio for exchange in that capital.
F. A. CAMPBELL.
Tokio, January 31, 1006.
Sir, — I have the honour to report that I attended at the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs this afternoon and signed the convention for the application to trade and
intercourse between Japan and Canada of our treaty with Japan of July 16, 1894,
and of oiir supplementary convention of July 16, 1895.
I beg to inclose herewith the English and Japanese text43 intended for His
Majesty's government, and I also inclose the certificate of Mr. Wawn, Acting Assist-
ant Japanese Secretary at this embassy, certifying that the two texts agree in every
respect. /
CLAUDE M. MACDONALD.
British Embassy, Tokio, Jauua'y 31, 1906.
I certify Chat I have compared the Japanese text of the convention for the
application to trade and intercourse between Japan and Canada of the British treaty
with Japan of July 16, 1894, and the supplementary convention of July 16, 1895,
with the English text of the said conventfion, and find thnt the two agree in every
respect.
J. TWIZELL WAWN,
Acting Asst. Japanese Secretary.
152 Ay'GLo-jAPAyESE coyvEyTioy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Downing Street, March 31, 1906.
Sir, — I am directed by the Earl of Elgiii to acknowledge the receipt of your
letter of the 27th instant (9239), inclosing copies of the English text of the con-
vention for the application to trade and intercourse between Japan and Canada of
the treaty between this country and Japan of July 16, 1894, and of the supplement-
ary convention of July 16, 1895, and to request you to inform Secretary Sir E. Grey
that His Lordship considers that steps should be taken with a view to the exchange
of ratifications of this convention.
H. BEKTRAM COX
(Signed also in Japanese Test.)
His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India, and His Majesty
the Emperor of Japan, being equally desirous of facilitating the commercial rela-
tions between Japan and Canada, have resolved to conclude a convention to that
effect, and have named as their respective plenipotentiaries: —
Ilis Majesty the King of tie United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India; Sir Claude Max-
well Maedonald, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael
and St. George, Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, His
Britannic Majesty's Ambassador to Japan; and
His Majest;y the Emperor of Japan, Takaaki Kato, Shoshil, First Class of the
Imperial Order of the Sacred Treasure, His Imperial Majesty's Minister of State
for Foreign Affairs ;
Who, having reciprocally communicated their full powers, found in good and
due form, have agreed as follows: —
ARTICLE I.
The two high contracting parties agree that the stipulations of the treaty and
commerce and navigation between Great Britain and Japan, signed at London on
the 16th day of July, 1894 (corresponding to the 16th day of the 7th month of the
27th year of Meiji), and of the supplementary convention between Great Britain
and Japan, signed at Tokio on the 16th day of July, 1895 (corresponding t:o the ICth
day of the 7th month of the 28th year of Meiji), shall be applied to the intercourse
commerce and navigation between the Empire of Japan and the British Dominion
of Canada.
ARTICLE n.
The present convention shall be ratified, and the ratification thereof shall be
exchanged at Tokio as soon as possible. It shall come into effect immediately after
the exchange of ratifications, and shall remain in force until the expiratinn of six
months from tlic day on which one of the higli contracting parties shall have
announced the intention of terminating it.
In witness whereof the above-named plenipotentiaries have signed the present
convention and have affixed thereto their seals.
Done in duplicate at Tokio, in the Japanese and English language, this 31st
day of January, of year one thousand nine hundred and six, corresponding to the
31st day of the 1st month of the 39th year of Meiji.
CLAUDE M, l^EACDONALD,
KATO TAKAAKL
CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 153
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
Japanese Treatv.
1073 M.— Colonial Secretary Cable, 27th June, 190(5, Japanese
Treaty, ratification delayed owing to error in trans-
lation 1
1096 M.— Colonial Secretary Cable, 12th July, 1900. Japanese
Treaty, ratification exchanged to-day, 12th July. . 2
1146 M,— Colonial Secretary Cable, 25th August, 1906, re Publi-
cation of Convention with Japan in Treaty series. . ;!
1165 M. — Colonial Secretary, 23rd August, 1906. re furnishing
Belgian Consul at Ottawa with copy of Convention
Great Britain and Japan 4
1208 M.— Colonial Secretary, 27th September, 1906, Conven-
tion United Kingdom' and Japan respecting Com-
mercial relation Canada and Japan 5
Consul General for Japan, 18th January, 1907, re De-
bate House of Commons re Japanese Treaty. ... 6
1677 !ir. — Memorandum Trade between Canada and Japan. ... 7
2256 — Order in Council, 12th October, 1907, Hon. Lemieux"g
Mission to Japan 8
1677 M.— Order in Council, 25th October, 1907, re Trade be-
tween Canada and Japan 9
17.34 M. — Colonial Secretary, 30th October, 1907, relation to
Hon. Lemieux's Mission to Japan 10
P. C. 1073M.
CABLE— CODE.
From Lord Elgin to Lord Grey.
London, 27th June, 1906.
Referring to your telegram of l?2nd June, His Majesty's Ambassador, Tokio,
telegraphs to-day as follows, begins : — Minister for Foreign Affairs yesterday informed
me that ratification had been delayed owing to supposed error in translation, but
hopes this being now settled exchange will take place latest next week. Ends.
ELGIN.
P. C. 1096 M.
CABLE— CODE.
From Lord Elgin to Lord Grey.
London, 12th July. 1906.
Eeferring to your telegram of 9th July, Japanese Convention, ratifications ex-
changed to-day, 12th July.
ELGIN.
P. C. 1146 M.
* CABLE— CODE.
From Lord Elgin to Lord Grey.
London, 25th August, 1906.
Presume that your ministers have no objection to publication of Convention with
Japan in treaty series as usual. Telegraph reply.
ELGIN.
154 AyGLO-JAPA.XESE COXTENTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190S
P. C. 1165 M.
From Lord Elgin to Lord Grey.
Downing Street, August 23, 1906.
My Lord. — I have the houour to acknowledge the receipt of your deputy's
despatch Xo. 244. of the 21st ultimo, transmitting a copy of a letter from the Bel-
gian Consul-Geueral at Ottawa asking for copies of the convention recently con-
cluded between the United Kingdom and Japan respecting commercial relations
between Canada and Japan, and to inform you that; the Secretary of State for For-
eign Affairs sees no objection to Mr. Charmanne being supplied with copies of the
convention, if your ministers agree.
I understand, however, that the convention cannot be published for some time,
as the ratifications have not yet been received from Tokio, and if the Consul-General
is supplied with copies, he should therefore be requested to regard the communica-
tion as confidential until the convention is officially published.
ELGIN.
P. C. 1208 M.
Dowsing Street, September 2", 1906.
Mv Lord, — I have the honour to transmit to you for the information of your
ministers, with reference to your telegram of the 26th ultimo, the paper noted in
the subjoined schedule.
ELGIN.
The Officer Admiiiisto'ihg
The Government of Canada.
Date.— January 31. 1906.
Description of Document — Convention between the United Kingdom and Japan
respecting conniTercial relations between Canada and Japan.
COXVESTIOX BETWEEN" THE UNITED KiNCDOM -AND J.\PAN RESPECTING COMMERCIAL RE-
LATIONS BETWEEN CaN.\DA AND JaPAN.
Signed at Tohio, January 31, 1906.
[Ratifications exchanged at Tokio, July 12. 1906.]
(Signed also in Japanese Text.)
His Majesty the King of tlie United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and
of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India, and His Majesty the
Emperor of Japan, being equally desirous of facilitating the commercial relations
between Japan and Canada, have resolved to conclude a Convention to that effect, and
have named as their respective Plenipotentiaries:
His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and
of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India. Sir Claude Maxwell
MacDonald, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael and
St. George, Knight Commander of the ilost Honourable Order of the Bath, His
Britannic Majesty's Ambassador to Japan; and
His Majesty the Emperor of Japan, Takaaki Kato, Shoshii, First Class of the
Imperial Order of the Sacred Treasure, His Imperial Majesty's Minister of State for
Foreign Affairs;
Who, having reciprocally communicated their full powers, found in good and due
form, have agreed as follows: —
CUIXESE AXD JAI'AXi:SE IMMIGRATION 155
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
ARTICLE 1.
The two High Contracting Parties agree that the stipulations of the Treaty of
Commerce and Navigation between Great Britain an<l Japan signed at London on the
16th day of July, 1894 (corresponding to the lOth day of the 7th month of the 27th
year of Meiji), and of the Supplementary C/onvention between Great Britain and
Japan signed at Tokio on the 16th day of July, 1895 (corresponding to the 16th day
of the 7th month of the 28th year of Meiji), shall be applied to the intercourse com-
merce anil navigation between the Empire of Japan and the British Dominion of
Canada.
ARTICLE II.
The present convention shall be ratified, and the ratifications thereof shall be ex-
changed at Tokio as soon as possible. It shall come into effect immediately after the
exchange of ratifications and shall remain in force until the expiration of six mionths
from the day on which one of the High Contracting Parties shall have announced the
intention of terminating it.
In witness whereof the above-mentioned Plenipotentiaries have signed the present
Convention and have affixed thereto their seals.
Done in duplicate at Tokio, in the Japanese and English languages, this 31st
day of January, of year one thousand nine hundred and six, corresponding to the 31st
day of the 1st month of the 39th year of Meiji.
(L.S.) CLAUDE M. MacDONALD.
(L.S.) KATO TAKAAKL
I.MI'EISIAI. tONSfl.ATi; GENERAL OF JA1"A_\ FOR THE DOMIXIOX OF CANADA.
385 Lairier AvENiE East,
Ottawa, January IS, 1907.
To the Right Honourable
Sir WiLFRin Lairier. P.C. G.C.M.G., &c., &c.
Dear Sir Wilfrid, — I have the honour of taking this first opportunity of express-
ing, in behalf of the Japanese government, my appreciation of your attitude lately
t'aken on the floor of the House of Commons in regard to the question of the treaty
of the trade and navigation between Japan and Canada. I am sending by fir.st mail
to the Japanese government a copy of the Hniisdnl, containing your speech on the
occasion.
I am rest assured that the time will come when Japan can show you something
substantial in the way of reciprocating this most noble and impartial sentiment,
which you have been in the habit of showing towards my country for last ten years,
since your party has come to power, and I only hope the same feeling would be
shared by every one in this great Dominion of Canada.
I take further opportunity of laying before you the latest; proof that the Japan-
ese government has been upholding their policy of voluntary restriction on their
subjects coming to Briti.sh Columbia, in the shape of a letter from ifr. W. T. Payne,
C. P. R. agent; at Yokohoina. Japan, to ilr. W. C. Ricardo, manager Lord Aberdeen's
farm in British Columbia, a copy of which is herewith inclosed for your kind
perusal.
There was of late an alleged report of there landed some 1,800 Japanese at the
British Columbia ports during^ the year of 1906. There might have been even more
than that number who landed either at Victoria or at Vancouver, but the most of
them were on their way to the United States. Our people going to the States gene-
rally avoid t;he port of San Francisco, since the city was visited by the earthquake,
156 ASGLO-JAPAyESE COXVEXTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
but select the British Columbia ports in spite of the medical inspection there is too
rigidly observed. This change of the place of debarkation on the part of the Japan-
ese has given the British Columbia some advantage, as these immigrants on their
landing, as a rule, provide themselves all sorts of necessaries, such as hats, boots
and clothing, spending at least $20 to $50 each before leaving for the States.
There is no doubt that the scareit;y of labour is at present felt everywhere in
British Columbia, on all lines of industries — mining, fishing, sawmills, timber limits,
railway construction, and especially farming. I have been, from time to ti.ne,
receiving applications from various parties in British Cohimbia for large supply of
the Japanese labourers, offering very much higher wages than it; used to be five years
ago. The Japanese government, however, will issue no passports under any pretext
whatever. The other day a countryman of mine in Toronto tried to bring a cook
from Japan, but he failed in his attempt, the government having refused tto give
the young man the permission.
I am not able to form any idea about fie Chinese immigration into British
Columbia, but I believe the Chinese will never care coming to Canada by paying the
sum of $500, as that sum means more than their whole fortune.
If a Chinaman had that sum of money in his own country he would never trouble
himself to come to this country to work.
So far as Japanese are concerned their number in British Columbia has been
of late very much diminished but the white labourers are not willing to take these
places vacated by the Japanese, however high the wages are. probably the work, such
as fishing, farming and railway construction being hard and iminteresting.
T. NOSSE.
1677— M.
Memoiwxdcm — Trade Between C.'^nad.v .\nd J.\pax.
The various details as to trade between Canada and Japan contained in the
"Memorandum enclosed in Earl Grey's Despatch of March 19th to the Secretary of
State for the Colonies seem to call for some comment.
The figures adduced by Mr. Xosse, Japanese Consul-General at Ottawa, to show
that Canada's export trade to Japan has received a considerable impetus since the
'treaty ratified in July, 1907, enabled Canada to enjoy the benefits of the Conventional
Tariffs seem to be open to criticism. The following figures give the total imports
and exports between the two countries during the four years 1903-1906.
Imports Exports
I'l 0111 Canada, to Canada.
1903 .. £50.944 £298,444
1904 S5.4S9 327.858
1905 74,727 330,754
1906 102,320 403,540
(N.B. — These totals include rc-imports of Japanese goods.)
It will be seen from the above that thdugh there was the considerable increase
of £27,595 in Canadian imports in 1900 this was not an abnormal advance, the exports
increased nearly £65.000 during the same year, while in 1904 the advance in imports
'was greater than in 1906. Moreover figiires for the years aftterior to 1903 show that
Canadian import.s, though fluctuating greatly, had on the whole an upward tendency.
The principal increases in imports in 1907 were in the following articles (there were
some things, especially timber, showing decline* I —
CHiyESE ASU JAI'AMC.^K IMUIdltATIOX 157
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
1905 190G Increase.
Flour £10,628 £10,705 £ 6,077
Salted salmon niul trniit 29.320 41,62y 12,305
Butter 1,482 2,345 861
i[anures 3.529 5,737 2,208
Soap 679 954 isY5
Lead 5.205 17,391 12,186
Paper (priuting> 017 4,609 5,992
Of the above commodities the first four which account for more than half the
total gross increase, do not come under any of the conventional tariffs, and were con-
sequently unaffected by the treaty mentioned above; it is therefore hardly accurate to
prwlit that treaty with being the principal cause of the expansion of the import trade.
Katurally where Canada is able to export goods mentioned in the conventional tariffs
she would benefit largely by the advantages gained by the treaty and indeed the ex-
pansion in the imports of lead and printing paper points strongly in that direction;
it should be noted that both these items were cheaper in the case of Canada than of
the United States, so that though information as to relative quality is lacking, the
Canadian increases may not have been due merely to the operation of the Conven-
tional Tariff.
Apart from the above the remark may be made that the majority of the goods
enumerated by Mr. Nosse do not appear in the Japanese customs returns as being of
Canadian origin. Thus he gives a total quantity of over 1,742,000 pounds of Can-
adian paper as being shipped to Japan, while the customs returns for 1906 show only
some 899.648 pounds (together with a small item of " other paper " worth only £21) as
having been imported from Canada into Japan. Similarly the total value of the
metal imports from Canada (apart from lead and including such items as fenders,
stoves, kitchen utensils, &c.) was given as only £161 during the same year, a total
quite inadequatet for the quantities of steel, wire and metal roofing mentioned by Mr.
Nosse as having left Canada for Japan. It is true that Mr. Xosse states the fact that
these goods were sent to Japan through the intermediary of American firms, but this
should not have obscured their place of origin. The Japanese import forms require
the mention of the place of origin or manufacture, especially in the case of goods
benefiting under the conventional tariffs which have to be accompanied by certificates
of origin; and the discrepancy between Mr. Xosse's figures and those of the Japanese
customs certainly suggests that the locality of origin is in many cases incorrectly
stated, and that possibly some of the imports under consideration would have secured
the benefit of the conventional tariffs even without the interposition of the treaty of
last year. This view is borne out by the fact that the import returns of Japan are by
no means in accord with the export returns of Canada. Thus in 1905 the exports
from Canada to Japan are given by British returns at £105.025 against £74.727 men-
tioned above; the figures for 1904 are reversed being only £70,324 in the British re-
turns against £85.489 in the Japanese customs returns.
The import of cotton duck to the extent of 215 yards mentioned as coming from
Canada cannot be regarded as bearing directly on the effect of the treaty in promot-
ing commerce as the import of this material from Canada during 1905 was 12,339
square yards valued at £9.38. There were no imports of cotton duck specifically men-
tioned in Japanese returns as coming from Canada so that the amount given by Mr.
X-osse must have been included under the small items of miscellaneous articles the
total of which for that year was only £48. The total value of condensed milk import-
ed into Japan from Canada during 1906 was given at £65 only (248 dozen).
During the five months ended May .31. 1907, the imports from Canada into
Japan were given as £46.906. against £46.704 during the previous year, showing
158 - AXOLO-JAPASEfiS CUyVKXIWX
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190af
only a nominal increase, though one period was before the operation of the treaty
and the other afCer it. The exports amounted to ,€123.836 during the above interval
in 1907, against £94,442 during the similar period in 1906.
Regarding the further remarks made in the memorandum on the subject of
trade opportunities between Canada and Japan the folloinwg may be said. Dealing
first with the specific instances in which it seemed possible for a Canadian firm,
Messrs Booth, to have secured the whole or part of a Japanese government order
for papers, had they been aware of the fact that tenders were invited, this appears
to involve an erroneous impression on the subject of Japanese government tenders.
Tenders are not open to every one, Jbut involve generally such conditions as that the
tenderer must have been carrying on his business two years in Japan, must depo-it
a percentage of the value of the tender as security, and tymder within a certain
time. Presumably ^lessrs. Booth have no agents in Japan, as otherwise these would
have kept them informed, and in that case it would seem that knowledge of the
opportunity would not have availed them; doubtless the American firm mentioned
have either a branch ofiiee, or agents in Japan who were able to tender.
The diificulty of the extension of Canadian trade in Japan must be put down
mainly to the absence of Canadian firms or agencies established in Japan. It goes
without saying that in any case strrenuous competition would have to be encountered
especially from the United States, which supply practically all the commodities that
Canada does. Assuming, however, that competition is possible in matters of prices
and quality, it is necessary to have merchants able to exploit Canada's products in
Japan. It must be remembered that the foreign trade of Japan is in the majority
of cases worked through middlemen. In some government and other special pur-
chases direct trade may be the method used, and Japanese representatives are some-
times sent abroad for the purpose of buying sp;'cially desired commodities. Lan-
guage and other difficulties, and the course of the growth of trade for the last
fifty years, have rendered necessary the employment of large import and export firms
trading on their own accomit or acting as agents for manufacturers and producers
in their own countries; there are, of course, some companies large enough for
enterprising, especially in recent years, to establish branch offices. Thus a list", of
important merchant firms only in Japan would show some sixty British firms
(including one Australian and several Indian) established in Japan and doing
import and export bu.-^iness. These firms hold a very large number of agencies,
principally of merchant.s in the Ignited Kingdom, while the business done by these
is supploment'ed by that of Japanese firms in British territory.
It would seem, therefore, that the most likely way of pushing Canadian trade
with Japan would be through the instrumentalit.v of firms (Canadian or otherwise)
established in Japan and making a speciality of Canadian goods. It is impossible
to advi.se the e.sl;.iblisliment of such a firm in an.v specific ease which might come up
for consideration; the difficulty of opening up a market, the competition of other
countries, especially the United States, in price, quality and quantit.y of goods, the
high cost of living and other difficulties might all prove serious obstacles; and in the
ease of firms and individuals with small capital and the result might prove disastrous.
Wliere, however, large companies witli ample resources are concerned, who desire to
find a market in Japan for their goods, or who consider that they can see their way
to open a lucrative trade with Japan, the establishment of a local branch or agenc.y
is the most likely wa.v of doing business. There wouhl have to be considerable oitla.v
in investigation, advertising, maintenance, expenses, &c., with the risk of ultimatel.y
finding the market unrcm\nierative, but this seems the mast obvious way of expand-
ing trade. An agent <^r representative is in the best position to examine conditions
closel.y to gauge the probable d<Mnand for goods, to ascertain the current prices and
quality of competing articles, to got into touch with people and firms otherwise diffi-
CHiyESf: AMJ ./.l/M.V/i.S/-; tUMlaUAllON 159
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
cult to reach, and generally to deal with the numerous difficulties of landing, examin-
ing, storing, delivering, &c., which arise before the final disposition of the goods.
Doubtless it might be possible \fi get some existing firnis (British ob more libelji
American) to accept agencies for Canadian goods, and indeed a good part of the
existing Canadian trade is done through American firms and some Japanese houses in
Canada. Such local firms would, however, not deal exclusively or even principally iri
Canadian oommodities, and the result would probably be that only surplus orders
would go to Canada.
It is a matter of much doubt as to what would be the exact scope of the agents or
representatives indicated in the last three paragraphs of the memorandum. If these
were proper business agents, able to buy or sell goods, make business contracts and
carry them out the.y would practically be of the description of agents mentioned above.
If, however, they were not business agents it is diflficult to see exactly what they could
do beyond collect and supply information. If sufficiefit funds were allotted such!
agents, whether government or private, could of course advertise, distribute catalogues,
store and exhibit samples and do anything else to attract attention and interest to
Canadian products, but when that was done the main problem of opening up or ex-
panding trade relations would still remain.
P. C. 2256
ExTR.\t"r from a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by the
Governor General on the 12th October, 1907.
The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier recommends that, in view of the
recent unfortunate occurrences which have taken place in British Columbia, as a
result of the largely increased influx of Oriental labourers into that province, and
in view of Che fact that there has been a treaty of peace and commerce between Ilij
[Majesty the King and the Emperor of Japan since the year 1S94, and that Canada
became a party to that treaty less than two years ago, the Honourable Rodolphe
Lemieux, Postmaster General and Minister of Labour, do proceed immediafe'y to
Japan to discuss the situation with His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokio and the
Japanese authorities, with the object", by friendly means, of preventing the recurrence
of such causes as might disturb the happy relations which have, under the said
treaty, existed between the subjects of His Majesty the King, in Canada and else-
where, and the subject.s of His Majesty the Emperor of Japan.
The cnn niittee, concurring in the foregoing recommendation, submit the same
for approval.
RODOLPHE BOITDREAU,
Cleric of hhe Pririj Council.
P. C. 1677— M.
Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by the
Governor General on the 25th October, 1907.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration a despatch,
dated 28th August, 1907, from the Secretary of State for the Colonies, transmitting
papers on the subject of trade between Canada and Japan.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce, to whom the said despatch was referred
states that: the principal paper covered by the despatch is a memoraiulum by Mr.
Harrington, acting commercial attache at His Majesty's Embassy, Japan, comment-
ing on certain details as to the Canada-Japan trade.
160 AyGLO-JAPAXESE COyVENTIOy
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
While it is difficult to reconcile Mr. Harrington's figures with those shown in
the Canadian returns of trade with Japan, yet this difference may be well explained
that the two sets of figures do not cover exactly the same period; and making
allowance for these diversities it would seem that ilr. Harrington's premises are well
taken, and that although there has been some increase of trade between Canada and
Japan since the coming into effect of the treaty, w-hich was ratified in July, 1906,
the actual increase when analysed, does not appear tto have been as great as has been
claimed by the Japanese Consul General.
Although the treaty may in the near future have a very strong influence, no very
great result has so far been apparent, as the increase of trade has been possibly more
accidental than otiherwise, and to a certain extent in articles not covered by the
convention.
The minister fully agrees in Mr. Harrington's opinion that it is only by jjersistent
efforts on the part of exporters that they can hope to build up a remunerative trade
with Japan.
In so far as the imports into Canada from Japan are concerned, they practically
consist of but few items, the largest of which is tea, which fluctuates from year to
year, not so much in quantity as in current value.
The minister observes that the conventional treaty give no advantage in this
respect to imports from Japan, as such principal item is and has been for a number
of years on the free list.
The minister expresses the hope that the cordial relations which exist between
Canada and Japan may be further stimulated and result in a material increase in
the trade between the two countries, for by reason of geographical situation Canada
should possess advantages for development of trade at least equal to those of any other
American country.
The minister submits a statement taken from Canadian Trade Eeturns which
shows the trade between the two countrie each year from June 30. 1903, to 1907,
inclusive.
The committee advise that His Excellency be moved to forward a copy hereof
to the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
All of which is respectfully submitted for approval.
RODOLPHE BOTJDREAU,
Clerk of the Privy CorinHJ.
caiXEfit' i.\u /JLi'syLst: iiimiora.tio\
161
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
TRADE OF CAXADA WITH JAPAN.
Statfuii'iit .sliowiiig the triulo of Canada with Japan during the six months ended
Deeeniber 31, 1W2 to lOtHJ; si.\ months ended June 30, 1903 to 1907; and years
ended June 30, 1903 to 1907. (From Canadian Returns.)
Six months ended December
.31. lfl()2
Six months ended December
31. ISOS
Six months ended December
31. 1904
Six months ended December
31. 1605
Six months ended December
31. iflon
Six months ended June 30,
1903
Six months ended June 30.
1904
Six months ended June 30.
I'OS
Six months emleil June 30,
1S06.
Six months ended June 30.
1CU7
Imports for Coxsdhption.
Dutiable.
Year ended June 30. 1903.
1(04.
ItOo.
■• 1906.
1907.
Free.
282. 4U
398,845
415,709
404,213
I
563,372
I
399,328'
473,505'
560,182
551,813
5(i7.574
Ii81,t>69
872,350
975,951
l.O40.O2tj
1.130.946
530.713
819,479
787.045
500,114
552,471
216,034
255,402
165, 2C0
127,402
.3.34.119
740.747
1,074,881
952 . 935
027.510
880,390
Total'
Exports.
Home
Pro<Iuce .
Foreign
Produce.
813,124
1,218,324
1,203,414
994,327
1,115,843
615,292
728,907
725,472;
070,215'
901,093
1,428,410
1,947,231
1,928,880'
1,073,542
2,017,3361
206,527
153,530
250,757
231,704
340,236
118,411
188,273!
248,852'
260,571!
240,269i
324,938
341,803'
508,009
492.275
380,885
147
4
1.128
284
2,023
96
309
1,188
1,543
02'
243
313
2,316
1,827
2.085
Total.
206,674,
153,534
200,885
231,988
342,879
118,507
188,382
250,040
262,114
240,09
,325.18
342,116
310,925
Total
Trade.
1,019,798
1,371,858
1,464.299
1.220.315
1,458,722
733,799
917.489
975.312
941.329
1.142,.3S2
1 , 75.3 . 397
2, 289.. 347
2,439.811
I
494,102 2.167.044
583,570 2,001.106
P.C. 1734— M.
From Lord Elffin to Lord Grey.
Downing Street, .30th October, 1907.
ilv Lord, — With reference to previous correspondence respecting the mission of
Air. Lemieux to Japan, I have the honour to request you to inform your ministers
that His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokio was instructed by telegraph on the 26^h
October in the sense proposed in my telegram of the 17th October and agreed to in
your telegram of the 22nd October.
2. I take this opportunity to forward for the information of your ministers copy
of a despatch which has been addressed to Sir C. Macdouald (Xo. 219 of the 16th
October), with reference to Mr. Lemieux's mission.
ELGIX.
Japanese and Chinese Riots, Vancol\er.
Nos.
1640 M.— Colonial Secretary, 10th September. 1907, that Chinese
Charge d'Affaires, hopes protection may be given to
Chinese subjects 1
1663 M.— His ^Iajesty"s Ambassador. Washington, 20th Sep-
tember. 1907, ask information re connection be-
tween Canadian and American movement 3
74b— 11
162 ANGLO-JAPANESE CONTENTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
1685 M. — Consul General for Japan. 7th October, 1907, asks
that measures be taken to prevent recurrence. ... 3
1701 M. — Colonial Secretary, 7th October, 1907, transmits note
from Chinese Legation respecting 4
2170— Order in Council, 12th October, 1907, appointment of W.
L. Mackenzie King a Commissioner to conduct in-
quiry into the losses and damages sustained by the
Japanese population in Vancouver 5
1739 M.— Sir Claude Macdonald, 23rd October, 1907, re Can-
adian government preventing recurrence of riot-
ing 6
2435 — Order in Council, 5th November, 1907, appointing W. L.
Mackenzie King, a Commissioner to inquire into
Emigration of Orientals 7
1740 M. — Colonial Secretary, 6th November, 1907, transmits
Chinese Charge d' Affaires re damages to Chinese. 8
1755 M.— Colonial Secretary, 12th November, 1907, transmits
Claude Macdonald re feeling in Japan 9
1663 M. — Order in Council, 14th November. 1907, in reply to
H. M. Minister. Washington despatch, 20th Sep-
tember, 1907 10
24. — Petition residents of the province of Britiph Columbia that
Dominion government immediately pass such legis-
lation as may be requisite to ensure the absolute
exclusion of Orientals from the Dominion of
Canada 11
1640 M.
CABLE— CODE.
From Lord Elgin f.o Lord Grey.
London, 10th September, 1907.
Chinese Charge d'Affaires called at Foreign Office yesterday on receipt of tele-
gram from Chinese Association, Vancouver, reporting demonstration against Chinese
and Japanese and danger to lives and property of Chinese residents in that city. He
expressed hope that immediate instructions might be given to authorities in British
Columbia to afford adequate protection to Chinese subjects. I presume Charge
d'Affaires may be informed that all necessary steps are being 4;aken to that end.
ELGIN
P. C. 1663—31.
From Rt. Hon. .Jas. Bryce to Lord Grey.
British Emb.\ssy, Intervale, N.H., Sept. 20, 1907.
My Lord, — In view of the intimate inter-relation of the anti-oriental agitation
in the Pacific provinces of the Dominion of Canada with that in the Pacific States
of the United States, it would be of great use to Ilis Majesty's Embassy if any avail-
able information on the subject of the connection between the Canadian and American
movement, with special reference to the action of American agitators at Vancouver,
might be communicated to this embassy for its information and guidance. The
Embassy on its part will transmit to the Dominion government any information of
interest it may receive on this subject from His Majesty's Consular ofiieers on the
Pacific Coast.
JAMES BEYCE.
CBINESE AND JAPANESE IMMWRATION 163
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
1685— K
From Consul General for Japan to the Governor General.
Imperial Consulatk General op Japan, Ottawa, October 7, 1907.
Your Excellency, — I have the honour to call the attention of your Excellency's
government to the fact that since the disturbance at Vancouver, B.C., on the night
cf the 7th September, when lifty-six of the stores owned by Japanese were attacked
and store windows smashed by a mob, and two Japanese were slightly wounded on
the occasion and also an attempt was made to set on fire a Japanese school house on
the night of the 9th, there still exists not only in the said city, but also in certain
srctions of British Columbia, I regret to say, a very strong feeling of hostility to the
Japanese residing in the province who are engaged in legitimate and peaceful occupa-
tions.
Your Excellency's government is possibly aware of the fact that it is alleged that
ihe attack, made on the Japanese stores, as aforesaid, was the outcome of a demon-
stration arranged by the Anti-Asiatic League which held its meeting early that even-
ing, and at which many prominent citizens of Vancouver took part. Although the
demonstration was apparently against Asiatics in general, evidently it would appear
to have been aimed against Japanese especially, because the league seemed to have
no serious objection to Plindoos on the ground perhaps that they are British subjects
themselves, and Chinese being practically excluded from Canada on account of the
i.uposition of live hundred dollar capitation tax upon every Chinese, so that as matter
of fact the league is principally directed against Japanese immigration, and the
svbsequent agitations both in British Columbia and elsewhere will show that they
are all directed against Japanese.
If the statements in some of the press in British Columbia are to be relied upon
ii this connection, 1' may quote a few sentences from them, published after the out-
break, to show that the attack was particularly directed against the Japanese. This
Ijaper has the following headings: "Attack on Jap-town. Recognizing the fact that
the fight of the labouring classes in this instance is directed against the Japanese
the mob soon left Chinatown and headed in the direction of Jap-town."
This, it seems to me, leaves no doubt that the demonstration at Vancouver on
tlie night of the 7th September was mainly against the Japanese. I regret to say
t'lat necessary precaution was not taken by the city authorities to prevent the out-
Lreak and thus that section of the city in which the Japanese reside was entirely at
the mercy of the rioters for the whole night and a part of the following morning.
A further extract from a local newspaper, may illustrate the real state of the city
that eventful night and how the police force proved utterly unequal to the situation:
■■ Law and order were lost in the vortex of mob rule, which swirled and eddied through
the oriental section of Vancouver on Saturday night and during the early hours of
Sunday morning. Thousands of dollars' worth of damage was done by the mob to the
]iroperty of the Orientals. The police on the scene were utterly unable to cope with
the mass of struggling, cursing, shouting humanity."
It is apparently clear that in this situation the Japanese residents in the City
of Vancouver were not able to depend upon the city authorities for their protection
of life and property, and perfect tranquility and peace were not assured until after
several days had passed.
Your Excellency's government may also be aware of the fact that the Anti-
Asiatic League has for its avowed object the exclusion of Japanese subjects from
Canada, and still keeps on agitating against the Japanese even to the extent of indulg-
ing of very threatening laguage. The continuance of the Anti-Japanese agitation by
the said league and by the labour element throughout the western section of Canada,
and its co-operation by the leading newspapers and prominent citizens of Canada, has
164 A\CJLO-.}AP.iXE.SK COyTEXTlOX
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
created a feeling of very grave apprehension on the part of my coinitrjinen resident
in British Columbia, that further disturbances may arise which might lead to loss
of life or property, miless effective measures are taken by the local authorities to see
tt at these peaceful and law-abiding subjects of Japan are protected in their ordinary
vocations.
My countrymen in British Columbia fully appreciate the friendly tone of the
tflegram sent in Your Excellency's name by Sir Wilfrid Laurier to the mayor of
Vancouver, in reference to the deplorable occurrence on the 7th of September and
rely with the fullest confidence upon every essential precaution which would be taken
by Your Excellency's advisers to acord them every possible protection in consonance
with treaty rights and international usages.
T. NOSSE.
P. C. 1701— ]\L
Downing Street, 7th October, 1907.
My Lord, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Your Excellency's
telegrams of the 11th and 14th September relative to the recent riots in Vancouver,
and to transmit to you, for the information of your Minister.*, copy of correspondence
with the Foreign Otlice on the subject of a note from the Chinese IjCgation regarding
the protection of Chinese subjects in Canada.
ELGIN.
Chinese Legation, September 16th, 1907.
De.\r Sir Francis Campbei.i,, — I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your two letters
of the 12th and 13th instant stating that all measures have been taken for the protec-
tion of the lives and projjerfy of Chinese sxd^jects in British Columbia, and that it is
believed that troubles are probably over.
I receive this information with much satisfaction and considering that there is
an enormous number of Chinese living in various parts of Canada where the public
feeling may, in consequence of labour agitation, break out without any warning against
them, I trust that precautionary measures have also been taken for their protection
in other provinces than British Columbia
IVAN CHEN.
Forkion Office, September liOth, 1907.
Sin, — With reference to your letter of the 12th instant, I am directe<l by Secretary
Sir E. Grey to transmit to you herewith to be laid before the Secretary of State for
the Colonies, a copy of a letter from the Chinese Charge d'Affaires relative to the
recent riots at Vancouver.
Iain to call attention, for su<'h action as the Rarl of Elgin may consider available,
to para. 2 of Mr. IVan Chen's note, in which he expresses the hoi>e that precautionary
measures have also been taken in provinces of Canada other than British Columbia
for the protection of Chinese subjects in the event of any outbreak of public feeling
against them.
Mr. Ivan Chen has l>een informed that the matter has been brought to the notice
o'' Lord Elgin
F. A. CAMPBELL.
DowNiNn Street, .''>th October. 1907.
The I'nder Secretary of State,
Foreign Office.
Sir. — T am directed by the F.arl of Elgin t(i acknowledge the receipt of your letter
No. .T1140 iif the :>Otb ultimo, transniittiug copy of a li'tter from the (^liinese (^harge
d'Affaires relative to the recent riots at Vancouver.
CHINESE AXn JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 165
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
2. With regard to para. 2 of Mr. Tvan Chen's note, I am to suggest that, should
Sir E. Grey sec no ohjeotion, the Chinese Legation should be assured, that Hi.'i
5laje.sty's government have every confidence, that the a\ithorities in all the provinces
of the Dominion of Canada will take whatever measures are necessary for the protec-
tic.n of Chinese subjects.
C. P. LUCAS.
P. C. 2170.
Exfract from a Report nf ihe Committee of the Pririi Cnunn'l, approved hy the
Governor General on the 12th Ortoher, 7907.
On a memorandum dated 28th September, 1907, from the Secretary of State,
representing that he has received a communication from l[r. T. Nosse. Consul General
for Japan in ('anaihi, stating th.it he was in receipt of a cable message from the
Foreign Minister of Japan calling attention to the damages and losses sustainwl by
the Japanese residents in Vancouver during the riots in the early part of the month of
September, 1907, and expressing the hope that in view of the cordial and friendly
relations existing between Japan and Canada, the case may be settled at Ottawa
independent of the Britisli government and without going through the usual diplo-
matic channels.
The Minister therefore recommends that the losses sustained during the recent
riots by the Japanese population residing in Vancouver be ascertained with a view
to their payment, and that Mr. W. L. Mackenzie King. C.M.G., Deputy Minister of
Labour, be appointed a Commissioner under the Enquiries Act, Chapter 104. of ih'
Reviser Statutes, to conduct an enquiry into the losses and damages sustained by
ihe Japanese population in Vancouver on the occasion of the recent riots in that city.
The Committee submit the same for approval.
RODOLPIIE BOUDREAU.
Clerk of the Privy Council.
P. C. 1739— M.
His Excellency,
The Right Honourable
Sir Wilfrid L.« rier, K.C.M.G.
ToKio. 2.3 October, 1907.
Sir. — On receipt of Your Excellency's telegram of the 12th inst. on the subject
of the recent disturbances at Vancouver I at once addressed a note to the Minister
of Foreign AlTairs conveying the message contained in the above mentioned telegram.
On the 19th instant I telegrajAed to Your Excellency the substance of the reply
received from Count Hayashi and I now have the honour to transmit herewith a
tianslation of His Excellency's note.
It will be observe<l that His Majesty the il,mperor and the .Japanese government
express their full confidence in the intention and ability of the Canadian government
to prevent the recurrence of such regrettable events.
CLAUDE M. MACDONALD.
24.35.
Extract from a Eeport of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved hy the
Governor General on the otli Xovemher. 1907,
On a memorandiim dated 4th October. 1907, from the Secretary of State, recom-
mending— in view of the recent unfortunate occurrences which have taken place in
166 AyCLO-JAPANESE COTs^VENTION
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
British Columbia, as a result of the largely increased influx of oriental labourers
into that province— that Mr. W. L. MacKenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of
Lf.bour, be appointed a Commissioner imder the Inquiries Act, chapter 104, of the
Revised Statutes of Canada, to conduct an inquiry into the methods by which the
said Oriental labourers have been induced to emigrate to Canada during the present
year.
The Committee submit the same for approval.
RODOLPHE BOUDREAU.
Clerk of the Privy Council.
1740— M.
Downing Street, 6th November, 1907.
The Officer Administering the Government of Canada.
My Lord, — I have the honour to transmit to you for the information of your
Minister, with reference to my despatch No. 387 of the 7th ultimo, the paper noted
in the subjoined schedule on the subject of the recent riots at Vancouver.
ELGIN.
Date, 21st October, 1907.
Description. — From the Chinese Charge d'Affaires.
1740— M.
Chinese Leg.\tion, 21st October, 1907.
Sir Francis Campbell, K.C.M.G., C.B.,
De.\r Sir Francis Campbell, — 1' beg to acknowledge the receipt of your two letters
of the 30th ultimo, and the 17th instant, in reply to my note of the 16th of September
kst, with regard to the necessary protection of Chinese subjects residing in other
parts of Canada than Vancouver.
I have learned with great relief of anxiety that His Majesty's Colonial Office
have every confidence that the authorities in all the provinces of Canada will take
whatever measures are necessary for the purpose.
The telegram, received by His Excellency the Governor General of Canada from
the Mayor of the City of Vancouver, mentioned in your letter of the 30th ultimo,
confirms the report I received from the China Association of that place relating to
some damage to property caused by the regretable disturbance on the 7th September.
I may add that a Chinese official has been deputed from the Chinese Consulate
General in San Francisco to make careful investigations into the extent of the said
damage.
IVAN CHEN.
P. C. 1755— M.
Downing Street, 12th November, 1907.
The Officer Administering the Government of Canada.
!N[y I/)RD, — I have the honour to transmit to you for the information of your
ilinister. with reference to my despatch No. 439 of 0th instant the papers mentioned
in the subjoined schedule, on the subject of the recent disturbances at Vancouver.
ELGIN.
CHINESE AXn JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 167
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74b
ToKio, 2nd October, 1907.
The Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Ciniov.
Sin, — The Vancouver riots of the f)th and Otli uhiino have excited little comment
in the Japanese press. And what has been said is distinguished for its moderation.
The gist of the few leading articles which have appeared is that though anti-Japanese
feeling in British Columbia is no new thing, the recent outbreak was due to the
exceptionally large numbers of Japanese immigrants from Hawaii, who, turned back
from San Francisco and other points on the American Pacific Coast by the new
anti-immigration legislation introduced by the United States government, have been
entering Vancouver during the last six months. Satisfaction is expressed at the
prompt action taken by the Canadian government and the local authorities of Van-
couver, and at the tone adopted by the British and Canadian press, though exception
is taken by the Japan Times to the views expressed by certain London journalists.
The sympathy shewn for Japan by the British public on the occasion of the San
Francisco disturbances is cited as a proof that justice will be done to Japan in this
matter, and a distinction is carefully drawn between the circumstances of the Cali-
fornian diificulty — where federal and state rights were in conflict — and the present
situation in Vancouver. 'What,' the Nichi NicJii says, 'we should do is to assert
our treaty rights and ask for the eilcctive discharge of treaty obligations. This is
what we hoped for when the San Francisco troubles occurred; we looked for an imme-
diate settlement of the difficulty on these lines. But what occurred on that occasion
was that the matter w-as treated as one which concerned primarily the relations between
the Federal government and the local authorities, and the international aspect of the
question as between Japan and the United States was obscured. There is nothing of
this kind to interfere with the solution of the present difficulty. No doubts as to
rights or obligations exist, evcr.vthing is clear and distinct. In July of last year the
Convention by which Canada adhered to the British Treaty with Japan came into
operation, and her position towards Japan is now the same in every respect as that
of the mother country.'
The Jiji suggests that the present moment when disturbances of a similar kind
have occurred in the territories of Japan's ally and of another country which is her
best friend, is a good opportunity for jointly investigating the underlying causes
which are responsible for these outbursts of feeling and for applying a remedy if
possible.
CLAUDE M. MACDONALD.
P. C. 1663— M.
Certified copy of a Report of the Committee of {he Privy Council, approved hy His
Excellency the Governor General on the Hth Novemher. 1907.
The Committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration a despatch
dated 20th September, 1907, from His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington request-
ing that any available information concerning the connection between the Canadian
and American agitation against Oriental immigrants, and especially relating to the
action of American agitators at Vancouver, might be communicated to the British
Embassy at Washington for his information and guidance.
The Acting Minister of Labour, to whom the said despatch was referred, states
that on October 12 Mr. W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour,
was appointed a commissioner to conduct an inquiry into the losses and damages
sustained by the Japanese population in Vancouver on the occasion of the recent riots
in that city, and also that on November 5, Mr. King was further appointed a com-
missioner to conduct an inquiry into the methods hy which Oriental labourers have
been induced to emigrate to Canada during the present year
168 AXGLO-JAPANESE COyTEyTION
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1909
The iliuister recommeiuls that the report of the commissioner in each case be
July forwarded to His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington as soon as the same has
been laid before His Excellency in Council.
The Coimnittee coneurrinfr in the foregoing- advise that His Excellency be moved
to forward a copy hereof to His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington.
All of which is respectfully submitted for approval.
EODOLPHE BOUDREAU,
Clerk of {he Privy Council.
P. C. 24^1908.
To the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C., E.G., Premier of Canada:
The PETrrioN" of the undersigned residents of the Province of British Columbia,
humbly sheweth:
1. That the Province of British Columbia has in the past, and will, until restric-
tion, continue to be the dumping ground of Oriental labourers — notably the Hindus,
Japanese and Chinese.
2. That at the present time there are at least 30,000 Orientals of the foregoing
races in British Columbia.
3. That the Orientals enter into competition with white men whom they have
largely displaced in the fishing, produce, supply and lumbering industries, and have
usurped the places amongst unskilled labourers that would otherwise be filled by white
men.
4. That the Orientals are not capable of assimilation with the white races at
present in Canada, and thus prevent the formation of a homogeneous citizenship.
5. That the national existence of Canada is threatened by the introduction of
non-assimilable races and the consequent driving out of the white man.
6. That the Royal Commission appointed by your government fully investigated
this question and urged the prohibition of all Oriental immigration, and your gov-
ernment recognized the soundness of this decision by passing the Chinese Exclusion
Act, and arranging with the government of Japan for limitation of immigration.
7. That -the measures adopted by your government have not been effective to
secure the desired ends.
Therefore your petitioners humbly pray:
That regardless of foreign countries, and all sentimental and political considera-
tions, your government immediately pass such legislation as may be requisite to
ensure the absolute exclusion of Orientals from the Dominion of Canada.
And your petitioners as in diity bound will ever pray.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74c A. 1908
SUPPLEMENTARY RETURN
(74c)
To an Address of the House of Common.s, dated the 12th December, 1907, for a copy
of all correspondence between the government of Canada and the Imperial
authorities, and a copy of all correspondence between the government of Canada
and any person or persons and of all reports communicated ta the government
in respect to the Anglo-Japanese convention regarding Canada.
E. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
Earl Grey to the Earl of Elgin.
Ott.wva, October 13, 1907.
It has been decided by Ilis Majesty's Canadian government to send to Japan,
by steamer leaving Vancouver on the 28th instant, the Honourable Kodolphe Lomieux,
Postmaster General and Minister of Labour, to discuss the situation in British
Columbia with Sir Claude MacDonald and the Japanese government, with the object
of pneventing the recurrence of events whereby the happy relations which have
existed under the treaty between His Majesty's subjects in Canada and elsewhere and
those of the Emperor of Japan might be disturbed. Will you forward me credentials
to show that the approval and support of the Crown are given to Mr. Leniieux's
mission ? He will be accompanied by Mr. Pope.
GEEY.
Lord Elgin to Lord Grey.
London, October 17, 1907.
Eeferring to your telegram of 13th October, as time does not permit of sending
you formal letter of introduction for Mr. Lemieux, the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs proposes to send following telegram to His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokio,
begins :
Canadian government, with approval of His Majesty's government, has decided
to send the Honourable E. Lemieux, Postmaster General and Minister of Labour,
to Japan by steamer leaving Vancouver 28th October to discuss question of British
Columbia with Your Excellency and Japanese government, with object of preventing
recurrence of such events as might disturb friendly relations between His Majesty's
subjects in Canada and elsewhere and those of Japan. ^
74c— 1
2 AXGLO-JAPANESE COAT£A'r/OA^
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Inform Japanese government and present Mr. Lemieux, who will be accom-
panied by Mr. Joseph Pope, Under Secretary of State, to tlie proper authorities on
arrival, and assist them in every way. Ends:
Telegraph whether you concur in proposed action.
ELGIN.
From Lord Grey to Lord Elgin.
Ottawa, October 22, 1907.
In answer to your telegram of ITth October, Japanese mission. Dominion govern-
ment concur in action proposed.
GEEY.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74f A. 1308
REPORT
BY
^Y. L. MACKENZIE; KING, C.M.G.
DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR
COMMISSIONER
APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE INTO THE
LOSSES SUSTAINED BY THE CHINESE POPULATION
OF VANCOUVER. B.C.
ON THE OCCASION OF THE RIOTS IN THAT CITY
IN SEPTEMBER, 1907
PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAUEyT
OTTAWA
PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSOX, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST
EXCELLENT MAJESTY.
1908
[No. 74/— 190S.]
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74f A. 1908
EOTAL COMMISSION.
Commissioner: W. L. Mackenzie Kdcg, C.M.G.,
Deputy Minister of Labour.
Secretary: Fbancts W. Giddeks,
Department of Labour. *
Counsel representing Chinese claimants : A. McEvoy, Esq.
Interpreter: David C- Lew.
Stenographers: F. Ev.\ns and Miss Ferguson".
74f— li
7-8 EDWARD V!l. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74f A. 1908
2(3 His Excellency the Right Honourable Sir Albert Henry George, Earl Grey,
Viscount Hawick, Baron Grey of Howick, in the County of Northumberland,
in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, and a Baronet; Knight Grand Cross of
the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, &c., &c..
Governor General and Commander in Chief of the Dominon of Canada.
3J!ay it please Your Excellency:
The undersigned has the honour to suhmit to Your Excellency the report of
W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, as Commissioner appointed
to investigate into the losses sustained by the Chinese population of Vancouver, B.C.,
on the occasion of the riots in that city in September, 1907.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
(Sgd.) EODOLPHE LEMIEUX,
Minister of Labour.
Ottawa, June 20, 1908.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No 74f A. 1908
Commission :
Appointing William Lyon Mackenzie King, Esquire, C.M.G. a Commissioner
to investigate into the losses sustained by the Chinese population of Van-
couver, B.C., on the occasion of the riots in that city in September, 1907.
Grey. (Seal). Canada.
Edward the Seventh, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender
of the Faith, Emperor of India.
To all to whom these presents shall come, or whom the same may in anywise
concern: Greeting:
Whereas in and by an Order of our Governor General in Council, bearing date
the seventh day of March, in the year of Our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and
eight, a copy of which is hereto annexed, provision has been made for an investigation
by our Commissioner therein and hereinafter named, into the losses sustained by the
Chinese population in the city of Vancouver in the province of British Columbia, on
the occasion of the riots in that city in the month of September, 1907.
Now Know Ye that by and with the advice of our Privy Council for Canada, We
do by these presents nominate, constitute and appoint William Lyon Mackenzie Eling,
C.M.G-, of the City of Ottawa, in the province of Ontario, Deputy Minister of Labour,
to be our Commissioner to conduct such inquiry.
To have, hold, exercise and enjoy the said office, place and trust unto the said
William Lyon Mackenzie King, together with the rights, powers, privileges, and
emoluments unto the said office, place and trust, of right and by law appertaining
during pleasure.
And We do Hereby, under the authority of the Revised Statute Respecting
Inquiries Concerning Public Matters, confer upon our said Commissioner the power of
summoning before him any witnesses, and of requiring them to give evidence on oath,
or on solemn aiErmation if they are persons entitled to affirm in civil matters, and
orally or in writing, and to produce such documents and things as our said Com-
missioner shall deem requisite to the full investigation of the matters into. which he
_ is hereby appointed to examine.
And We do Hereby require and direct our said Commissioner to report to our
Governor General of Canada in Council the result of his investigation, together with
the evidence taken before him, and any opinion he may see fit to express thereon.
In Testimony Whereof, We have caused these our Letters to be made patent and
the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed. Witness: Our Right, Trusty and
Right well-beloved cousin the Right Honourable Sir Albert Henry George, Earl Grey,
Viscount Howick, Baron Grey of Howick, in the County of Northumberland, in the
7
8 VAXCOCTER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Peerage of the United Kingdom and a Baronet, Knight Grand Cross of Our Most
Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, &c., &c., Governor General
and Commander in Chief of our Dominion of Canada.
At our Government House, in our City of Ottawa, this seventh day of March,
in the year of Our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and eight, and in the eighth
year of our reign-
By Command.
(Signed) J. POPE,
Under Secretary of State.
(Signed) E. L. Xewcombe,
Deputy Minister of Justice,
Canada.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74f A. 1908
REPORT OF W. L. MACKENZIE KIXG, C.M.G.,
Commissioner appointed to investigate into the Losses sustained hy the Chinese
Population of Vancouvey, B.C., on the occasion of the Eiots in that City in
September, 1907.
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
I have the honour to submit the following report on the results of my investiga-
tion into the losses of the Chinese residents of the city of Vancouver, B.C., occasioned
by the anti-Asiatic riots of September, 1907. This investigation was undertaken in
pursuance of the Royal Coramission issued to me on the 2.5th day oi March, 1908, a
copy of which is annexed hereto.
At the time the Commission was issued, I was absent in England on a mission to
confer with the authorities of Great Britain on the subject of oriental immigration to
Canada, and immigration from India in particular. I left for Vancouver as soon as
possible after my return to Canada, arriving there on Sunday, the 24th of May. The
Chinese Government has not any consular or other representative in Canada. I foimd,
however, on arriving in Vancouver, that Mr. Tung Cheng-Ling, attache of the
Imperial Chinese Legation at London, England, had come to this comitry to be present
at the inquiry, and that Mr. Owyang King, Chinese Consul at San Francisco, and
Mr. Moy Bok Hin, Chinese Consul at Portland, Oregon, were also present in Van-
couver for the same purpose.
On Monday, the 25th of May, I caused the following notice to be inserted in the
three daily newspapers of Vancouver, and a translation of the same notice in the two
local Chinese newspai)ers, one of which appears daily, and the other tri-weekly.
' Public Notice-
' The undersigned, appointed Commissioner under the authority of the
Revised Statute Respecting Inquiries Concerning Public Matters, to investi-
gate the losses sustained by the Chinese population in the City of Vancouver,
on the occasion of the riots in that city in the month of September, 1907,
hereby notifies all parties having claims to present that he will be at Pender
Hall, Pender street, between the hours of 10..30 a.m. and 4.30 p.m. on Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday, the 26tt, 27th and 28th inst., respectively, to
receive such claims ; also, that no claim will be entitled to consideration which
is not presented within the time herein specified. The investigation of the
said claims will be commenced forthwith, and the undersigned will be prepared
to hear the representations of any parties desiring to appear or to be heard
before the commission in respect of any or all of the said claims.
W. L. MACKENZIE KING,
Commissioner.
Dated at Vancouver, May 25, 1908."
9
10 TAyCOUTER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The same day I sent a special communication to Mr. George Cowan, K.C., solicitor
for the city of Vancouver, drawing his attention to the public notice concerning the
investigation of the claims of the Chinese residents. I also had interviews with Mr.
Tung Cheng-Ling, Mr. Owyang Xing, and ilr. Arthur McEvoy, who had been retained
as counsel by the several claimants, and informed these gentlemen of the intended
method of procedure at the inquiry which was to open on the following day. At the
time of the occurrence of the riot in September last, the Vancouver Chinese Board of
Trade, a body composed of the leading Chinese merchants, retained the services of Mr.
McEvoy to assist in protecting the interests of the Chinese residents, and undertook
all the work necessary in estimating the losses and preparing in detail statements of
the several claims. Mr. Owyang King was deputed by the embassy at Washington to
proceed to Vancouver and act as a special representative of the Chinese Government.
While in Vancouver, Mr- Owyang King, with the assistance of the members of the
Chinese Board and their solicitor, made a careful estimate of the actual and resultant
damages sustained by the Chinese residents, and the amounts of the losses were set
forth in individual declarations, notarial copies of which were forwarded to the Chinese
Ambassador at London, and were by him transmitted, through the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs, to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, by whom they were
forwarded to the Canadian Government.
When the inquiry opened, Mr. McEvoy appeared on behalf of the Chinese Board
of Trade and the several claimants. His Worship, Mayor Bethune, and Mr. Cowaa,
city solicitor, were present, but took no part in the proceedings. Notarial copies of
the several claims, as presented through official channels, were put in by the solicitor on
behalf of the several claimants. In presenting these claims Mr. McEvoy pointed out
that although the number was considerable, several had been omitted, and asked if any
such might be added. As my commission directed me to inquire into all losses, irres-
pective of whether claims for the same had been made or not, I intimated, as stated
in the public notice, that I would be prepared to consider any claim which might be
presented within three days of the opening of the Commission. Mr. McEvoy thereupon
put in a few additional claims, and a day or two subsequently these were supplemented
by another claim put in by Mr. J. K. Macrae, barrister, of Vancouver, on behalf of
clients, Chinese residents of Vancouver.
The claims as presented through England amounted in all to $25,774-61, of which
amount $2,.')fi8.98 was on account of expenses incurred by the Chinese Board of Trade,
$3,277.63 for actual damages, and $19,028 for resultant damages. As amended by the
addition of new claims and the alteration of amounts in certain of the original claims
during the course of the inquiry, the revised total amounted to $26,217.12, of which
$3,190.14 was on account of actual damages, and $20,458 for resultant damages. In
all there were 227 claims presented, 125 being for actual and 102 for resultant damages.
The sittings of the Commission were hold at Pender Hall, Pender street, and the
Commission sat continuously from the morning of Tuesday, May 26, to Friday, Juno
5, inclusive, with the exception of Sunday, May 31. In all 118 witnesses were examined,
this number including most of the claimant.s, the Chief of Police, the Chief Inspector
of Police, and one or two other persons. An opportunity was given to anyone who
wished to do so, to appear before the Commission and make representations in regard
to the subject-matter of the inquiry, irrespective of whether or not a request had been
CBIVESE CLAIMS 11
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74f
made for his appearance, but only one citizen volunteered any statement. The exami-
nation of the witnesses was conducted by myself as Commissioner, Mr. McEvoy also
examining wherever in his opinion it was desirable. Several of the Chinese claimants
spoke English fairly well, and it was not necessary to have an interpreter to assist in
their examination- Mr. David C. Lew, a recognized interpreter in the courts of
Vancouver, acted as interpreter when an interpreter's services were necessary. Mr.
F. W. Giddens, of the Department of Labour, acted as secretary, and Mr. F. Evans
and Miss Ferguson as stenographers of the Commission.
The evidence taken before a previous Commission appointed to inquire into the
losses sustained in the same riot by the Japanese residents was filed as an exhibit,
and the same, in so far as it had a bearing upon the existence and extent of the riot
and the relative losses of the Chinese and Japanese, was taken into account in
assessing the losses of the Chinese residents. The subject in this particular having
been exhaustively dealt with in the previous inquiry, there was a considerable saving
in the amount of time necessarily devoted to this phase of the investigation. A
further economy in time was effected by the statements which accompanied the several
declarations, and which set forth in detail the basis on which the amounts claimed
had been estimated. These statements had been prepared with care by Mr. Owyang
King and Mr. McEvoy at the time the several claims were drawn up in September
and October of last year- After a careful examination into each of the several claims,
I found that the losses amounted in all to $25,990, of which amount $3,185 was on
account of damage to property, $2,569 on account of losses incurred by the Chinese
Board of Trade, and $20,236 on account of losses consequent upon the suspension of
business and in other ways.
It can serve no useful purpose to set forth in detail the bases on which the several
amounts allowed to the respective claimants were arrived at, other than to say that
while a strict regard was had for th« fact that all payments would be defrayed from
public moneys, the trust nature of which cannot be too constantly kept in mind, each
claim was considered in the light of the material facts and circumstances, with a view
to seeing that full justice was accorded to every claimant.
With the exception of the estimates prepared immediately after the riot by one
of the leading hardware companies of the city of Vancouver at the instance of the
Chinese Board of Trade, on which estimate the several claims for actual damages
were based, there did not appear to be any estimate of actual losses. The civic
authorities took no steps to ascertain the amount of damage done; nevertheless the
actual damages were easily assessed. They were almost exclusively incurred on
account of broken windows, signs and glass, a good portion of the glass being- plate.
The accuracy of the estimates prepared was vouched for by members of the firm by
which they had been made, and was further verified by the production of receipts by the
several claimants for amounts expended. Li the case of damages to property, the
claimant, if a tenant, was allowed the actual loss only where it was shown that it had
fallen upon him, and not ujwn the owner. As with but one or two exceptions, the
claimants in the case of damaged property were the owners and Chinese residents,
there was not, as in the case of the settlement of the claims of the Japanese tenants
for damage done to property owned by white people, the cost of the damage was
properly chargeable. In the case of broken plate glass, the several claimants were
12 YASCOUTEIi RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
questioned in regard to insurance, and an examination made of insurance policies,
where such existed, but in no case did it appear that the policies held by them were
of such a nature as to entitle the claimants to any compensation from the companies
with which they had insured.
In the case of the resultant losses, which were largely in the nature of business
losses on account of the necessary cessation at the time of and days immediately
following the riot, the accuracy of the several statements presented with the individual
claims was vouched for by Mr. Owyang King, under whose supervision the same had
been prepared. It was stated by Mr. Owyang King that in the preparation of these
statements a careful examination of the books of the several claimants had been made
wherever this was thought necessary or desirable- Before the Commission these state-
ments, which related to business being done at the time of the riot, were tested by a
comparison with the businesses of the several claimants, as actually existing
at the time of the sittings of the commission, as well as by a comparison in each
case with the total business of the year, and by a comparison of the business of
one firm with that of others claiming like or different amounts. The claimants
appear almost without exception to have exercised moderation and a sense of fairness
in the amount at which their respective business losses were estimated. In only two
cases was a claim made for losses beyond a period of six days. Some of the claimants
took account only of losses on account of expenditure for the time during which their
places of business had l>een closed, and omitted any reference to loss of profit during
the same time. The only cases in which there was any real difficulty in ascertaining
resultant losses was in the amounts claimed for payments to guards in protecting pro-
perty and for boarding Chinese from diiferent parts of the city, who took refuge in
the dwellings of certain of the merchants during the time of the riot and the days
immediately following. In assessing these losses, regard was had to the nature of the
promises protected and th,' tLasonableiiess of the number of persons alleged to have
been employed or sheltered, and the amounts alleged to have been expended. Except
in the case of restaurant keepers who lost some perishable goods, there were few claims
for spoiled or damaged merchandise, and there were but one or two claims on account
of lo.-i- of orders which it was alleged had been cancelled because of not being filled at
the I hue of the riot.
It appears that during the time of the riot, the Chinese residents purchased a
considerable quantity of firearms and ammunition. The claimants were quite frank
in their admission that these weapons had been purchased for the purpose of defence,
and would in all probability, have been used, had further unwarranted attacks been
made upon them. As it appeared that there was no necessity for the purchase of these
firearms, any amounts claimed for payment on this score were wholly disallovi'ed, as
were also sundry small charges for the purchase of lanterns, hose and the like, which
some of the claimants alleged they had obtained as means of protecting their property
in the event of incendiarism.
The evidence being concluded, I prepared a detailed statement of the amounts
which it appeared reasonable to award to the several claimants on account of the
actual and resultant damages. A copy of this statement is given as an appendix to this
rcr)ort. On Tuesday, the 9th June, I sent the following message, advising of the total
CniyE.^E CLAIMS 13
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74f
amount of the losses, and recommending that in addition to the payment of this
amount, the sum of $1,000 should be allowed to claimants ou account of legal expenses:
' Vancouver, June 9, 1908.
'Hon. EoDOLPUE LEMIEt;X,
' Minister of Labour,
' Ottawa.
' After careful examination into losses of Chinese residents of Vancouver,
occasioned by anti-Asiatic riots. I find that total losses, including actual and
resultant, amount to $25,900. Claimants have been represented before Com-
mission by counsel, who has materially assisted progress of inquiry. Would
recommend that an additional thousand dollars be allowed to claimants on
account of legal expenses, making as .sum total of amount recommended for
payment, $26,990.
' (Sgd.) W. L. MACKENZIE EIXG,
Commissioner.'
Having received, on the morning of June 11, a telegram informing me that the
sums as recommended for payment had been approved by Council, and instructing me
to inform Mr. Tung Cheng-Ling, attache of the Imperial Chinese Legation, that the
amount would be put iu the supplementary estimates and paid to the claimants as
soon as voted by parliament, I sent the following communication to Mr- Tung Cheng-
Ling :—
'Vaxcouveb, June 11, 1908.
' Sm, — I have the honour to inform you that having made a careful
examination, under Royal Commission, into the losses sustained by the
Chinese residents of the city of Vancouver, in consequence of the anti- Asiatic
riots in September of last year, I have, as directed in my Commission,
reported to the Governor General of Canada in Council the result of the
investigation* so far as relates to the total losses sustained, which I have
estimated as amounting to $25,990, I recommended that, in addition to this
amount, the sum of $1,000 should be allowed to the claimants on account of
legal expenses.
' I have pleasure in further informing you that I have to-day received
from Ottawa a telegram stating that Council has approved the sums recom-
mended for payment, and that an amount covering the same will be put
in the supplementary estimates to be presented to Parliament at the present
session, and will be paid to the claimants as soon as voted-
' I have the honour to be, sir,
' Tour obedient servant,
'(Sgd.) W. L. MACKENZIE KllSTG,
' Commissioner.
•'Mr. Tung Cheng-Ling,
' Attache to the Imperial Chinese
' Legation of London,
' Vancouver.'
14 YAXCOUTER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A'. 1908
On the 13th of June I received the following communication in reply :
June 13, 1908.
' Sir, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your favour of
the nth inst., informing me that after having made a careful examination^
under Royal Commission, into the losses sustained by the Chinese residents-
of the city of Vancouver, in consequence of the anti- Asiatic riots of Septem-
ber last year, you have reported to the Governor General of Canada in CounciL
the result of the investigation so far as relates to the total losses sutained,.
which you have estimated as amounting to $25,990, with the recommendation
that an additional sum of $1,000 be allowed to the claimants on acount of legal
exx)enses, and further informing me that you have received from Ottawa a
telegram stating that council has approved of the sum recommended for pay-
ment, and that an amaunt covering the same will be put in the supplementary-
estimates to be presented to parliament at the present session, and will be paid
to the claimants as soon as voted.
' I have the honour to inform you that I will communicate the contents-
of your note to our Minister at London, and I have no doubt that he will be-
much pleased at the result.
' In the recent inquiries conducted by you, I beg to state that, although,
officially, neither my colleagues nor myself could have been anything other
than that of a spectator, yet personally we were much, gratified by the fairness
with which the inquiries were made, and for the many courtesies you have-
shown us we desire to express to you our high appreciation and sincere thanks.*"
' I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) ' TUNG CHENG-LING.'
' To Mr. Mackenzie King, C.M.G.,
' Royal Commissioner, &c., .
' Vancouver, B.C.,'
I have made mention of the presence of Mr. Tung Cheng-Ling and other Chinese-
officials at the sittings of the Commission. Their presence was not only gratifying as-
an evidence of the appreciation by the Chinese government of the action of the Cana-
dian government in instituting the investigation, but was also salutary as affording
to the several claimants an assurance, if any such were needed, that their intereets-
would be fully protected before the conunission. I have pleasure in acknowledging
their assistance and courtesies wherever opportunity afforded. I desire to make special
mention of the important services rendered by Mr. Owyang King in the preparation
of the several claims, and of the valuable assistance given the Commission by Mr..
McEvoy, the able counsel who appeared on behalf of the several claimants. But for
the forethought and good judgment e.xcrciscd by Mr. Owyang Kinp and Mr. McEvoy
at the time of the riots, and in the preparation of the several claims, as well as in.
their presentation, the duties of the Commission would have been arduous indeed, and
the time necessary for investigation considerably prolonged.
CHINESE CLAIMS 15
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74f
In concludiiifj this report I desire respectfully to bring to the attention of Your
Excellency in Council a matter of serious significance and importance which was
disclosed during the course of the inquiry under the present commission. In the
investigation of the different losses, a claim was made for $600 by each of two opium
manufacturers on account of loss of business for six days, their places of manufacture
having been closed for that length of time in consequence of the riots. I was some-
what surprised at the presentation of claims for losses in such a business. There does
not appear, however, to be any existing legislation prohibiting the importation of crude
opium, or its manufacture in Canada, and the only restraint upon the manufacture
of that article in the city of Vancouver is the municipal regrulation requiring the tak-
ing out of a license and the pajonent therefor of a fee of $500 before the manufacture
can be carried on within the city limits.
In ascertaining the basis on which the above losses should be computed, I went
somewhat fully into the nature and extent of the business of the two concerns on behalf
of which claims were presented. I also personally inspected the premises and saw the
process by which the manufacture of opium is carried on. In the case of one of these
establishments it was stated by the proprietor that he had been engaged in the business
for a period of ten years, and was employing, at the time of the riot, ten persons; that
his gross receipts from this source alone for the year 1907, totalled $180,000 ; that his
wage bill for the month amounted to $485 ; and that his estimated net profit, for the
year 1907, was $20,000. This was after deducting $5,820 for wages, $1,080 for rent,
and $500 for license fee. In the case of the other concern, the proprietor stated that
while keping a small store, his main business was that of carrying on the manufacture
of opium, in which he had been engaged for a period of twenty-one years; that he
was employing, at the time of the riot, nineteen persons; that his gross receipts
totalled between $170,000 and $180,000 for the year 1907; that his wage bill for the
month amounted to $1,525; and that his estimated net profit for the year 1907 was
$15,000, after deducting $18,300, wages, $1,800 for rent, and $500 for license fee.
Both manufacturers stated that they sold to white people as well as to Chinese
and other Orientals; that the opium was consumed in different parts of the Dominion;
and that, in addition to their own factories, there were three or four other opium
factories in the city of Victoria and one in New Westminster, all of which were doing
an extensive business.
Regarding it as an anomaly that the Government of Canada should, under any
circumstances, be held bound to make good pecuniary losses in an industry so inimical
to our national welfare, and having regard to the discretion given me by my commission,
I feel it my duty respectfully to submit that the operations of the opium industry in
Canada should receive the immediate attention of the parliament of the Dominion,
and of the several legislatures ,with a view to the enactment of such measures as will
render impossible, save in so far as may be necessary for medicinal purposes, the
continuance of such an industry within the confines of the Dominion, and as will
assist in the eradication of an evil which is not only a source of human degradation
but a destructive factor in national life. This industry, I believe, has taken root and
has developed in an insidious manner without the knowledge of the people of this
country. Its baneful influences are too well known to require comment. The present
would seem an opportune time for the government of Canada and the governments
16 TAXCOUTER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
of tbe provinces to co-operate with the governments of Great Britain and China in
a united eSort to free the jwople from an evil so injurious to their progress and well-
being. Any legislation which may be directed to this end, will have the hearty endorse-
ment of a large proportion of the Chinese residents of this country, who, as members
of an Anti-Opium League, are doing all in their power to enlighten their fellow
citizens on the terrible consequences of the opiiun habit, and to suppress, as effectually
as possible, the traffic which, for so many years, has been carried on with impunity.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
(Sgd) W. L. MACKENZIE KING,
Commissioner.
Dated at Ottawa the 2t)th day of June, 1908.
CHINESE CLAIM)^
17
SESSIONAL PAPER Nc. 74f
APP^DIX.
Statement sliowing amounts allowed claimants for actual losses : —
Chinese Empire Kefoini Association,
ShaiiKhai St. (also 529 Cairall St.)$ 21 ho
Chow Lee Co., 75 Dupont St 1 20
Chuug Kee Co., 530 Carrall St.. .. 71 00
look Cliui Yuen Co.. .547 Carrall St.. .52 30
I'oiiKouM Co.. ino Hastings St 177 .'iO
Oim Lee Yuen Co., 5Co Carrall St.. 228 70
<-riii Sing Wo Co., 732 Westminster
Ave 120 00
Had Hing Lung Co., 513 Carrall St.. 20 00
Haug Foo Low Co., 533 Carrall St. . 5 00
Ho Choug, care Chinese Board of
Trade 20 25
Hong Ou Jung Co., 559 Carrall St. . 112 50
Hung Fong Co.. 5.50 Carrall St.. .. 15 80
Hung King Chan Co., 500 Carrall St. 13 00
King Hung Co.. 24 Dupont St.. .. 8 00
King Fung Co 22 75
Kong Hing Co., 534 Shanghai St.. .. 12 00
Kwong Wo Lung Co., 13 Pender St.. 28 60
Kouau Yee Gee Co., 529 Carrall St.. 2 75
Kwong ^ uen & Co., 539 Westminster
Ave 33 50
Kong Yuen, 26 Pender St 3 25
Lee Kar, 45 Dupont St 63 45
Lee On Co., 45 Dupont St 40 00
Lee Tuen Co., 37 Dupont St 11 25
Lun Chong Co., 17 Dupont St 37 30
Loo Gee Wing, 45 Dupont St 153 00
Lee Wai, 437 Carrall St.. .> 14 25
Man Chung Lung Co., 81 Dupont St. . 2 75
Man Hung Low Co., 513 Carrall St.. 19 00
Man On Tong Co.. 511 Cajrall St.. .. 10 00
Mee Wo Co., 25 Dupont St 12 25
Mee Tuen Co., 32 Dupont St 58 00
Mow Sang Co., 26 Canton St 12 65
Old Gim Lee Yuen Co., 32 Dupont St. 7 60
Ououg Ching to., 31i Dupont St.. .. 19 00
Quong Hop Co., 104 Dupont St.. .. 1 80
Quong Man Sang Co., 551 Carrall St.. .37 40
Quong Wo Yuen Co., 67 Dupont St.. l(i 30
Quong Y'ing Chong, 543 Carrall St.. 2 95
Sam Kee, 433 Carrall St 456 80
Sang Chong Co, 94 Dupont St 4 ,5(1
Sing Lee Co., 445 Carrall St 0 60
Sing Lee Wah Co., 4.30 Columbia Ave. 28 .50
Sang Lung Co., 5.34 Carrall St 17 6U
Sui Ying Chong Co., .5.53 Carrall .St.. 2 15
Sun Tai Co., 545 Carrall St 19 85
See Lee Wo Co., 1 Canton St 18 30
Sun Wo Co., at Pender St 27 20
Son Toy & Kwan Luke. 531 Hastings
St 23 00
Tai Sing Co., 19 Pender St 88 25
Tai Wo Chong Co., 554 Shanghai St.. 67 80
Sam Sing, 1 Canton St 335 00
Wah Hing Co., 27 Dupont St 3 75
Wah Lung Chang Co., 510 Carrall
St 6 80
Wah Tick Jung Co., 548 Shanghai St. 64 00
Wing Jung Yuen Co., 1 Dupont St.. 31 45
Wing Get Chung Co., 17 Pender St. . 34 70
Wing Lee Lung Co., 552 Shanghai St. 40 00
Wing Mow Co., 102 Dupont St 4 35
Wing Hong On Co., 38 Pender St.. .. 11 15
Wing Sang Co.. 51 Dupont St 135 40
Wo Sang Co., 50 Hastings St 18 50
Wo Sang, .50 Hastings St 67 60
Wo Yuen Co., 134 Dupont St 60 00
Y'ee Sang, 14 Canton St 10 00
Yet Sing Co., 16 Hastings St 2 00
Y'ick Wo Co., 13 Dupont St 27 60
Yuen Yuen Co., 31 Dupont St 27 00
Y'uen Sun Low Co., 529 Carrall St.. 14 00
Y'uen Chong 48 75
Total $ 3,185 00
74f— 2
18 VANCOVVER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX— CoT! tinued.
Statement showing amounts allowed claimants for resultant losses: —
Bow Yuen Co., 26i Dupont St S
Ching Chung Co., 574 Shanghai St. .
Chow Lee Co., 75 Dupont St
Chung Kee Co., 530 Carrall St.. ..
Fook Chui Yuen Co., 547 Carrall St.
Foni^oun Co.. 100 Hastings St
Gin"Sing Wo Co., 732 Westminster
Ave • •
Gim Lee Yuen Co., 565 Carrall St.
(also 36 Dupont St.)
Hal Hing Lung Co., 513 Oanrall St..
Hing Kee, 45 Pender St.. .._.. ..
Hing Lung Co., 9 Pender St
How Kow & Chinese Board of Trade,
42 Pender St
Hip Sing Co., 4 Dupont St
Hip Tuck Lung, 4 Dupont St. . . .
Hung Hing Chan Co., .500 Carrall St.
Hop Yick Lung Co, 566 Shanghai St.
Hang Foo Low Co.. 533 Carrall St.
Hong On .lung Co., 557 Carrall St.. ..
Hung Fong Co., 550 Carrall St.. ..
.Tung Quan, 67 Dupont St
Kee Sing, 607 Westminster Ave.. ..
King Fung Co., 517 Carrall St
King Hung, 24 Dupont St
Kue Lee, 111 Dupont St
Hong Hing Co., 534 Shanghai St.. ..
Kong On Co., 557 Carrall St.. .. ..
Kung Yuen Co., 1 Shanghai St.. ..
Kwong Wo Lung Co., 13 Pender St..
Kouan Yee Gee Co., 529 Carrall St..
Kwong Yuen & Co., 539 Westminster
Lai Fong Co., 109 Dupont St
Lun C'hong Co., 17 Dupont St
Lee On Co., 45 Dupont St
Lee Fook & Chinese Board of Trade,
430 Carrall St
Lee Sing Co., 50J Hastings St
Lee Yuen. 37 Dupont St
Lin Wo Co. 85 Dupont St
L. W. Transfer Co., 557 Cajrall St..
Miui Chung Co., .567 Carrall St.. ..
Man Chung Lung Co., 81 Dupont St..
Mark Long & Co.. 23 Hastings St. . . .
Man Hung Low Co., 513 Carrall St..
Man On Tong Co., 511 Carrall St. . . .
Mee Wo Co.. 25 Dupont St
Mee Yuen Co., 32 Hastings St.. ..
Mow Sang Co., 26 Canton St
On Kee Co, 434 Columbia Ave. . . .
Quung Ching Co., 31J Dupont St.. ..
150 00 Quong Fong Low, 26 Dupont St. . . . 580 00
120 00 Q«ong Hop Co., 104 Dupont St. . . . 40 00
60 00 Quong Ling Hing Co., 79 & 83 Dupont
200 00 i St 265 00
160 00 ! Quon Man Sang Co.. 551 Carrall St. 2.30 00
350 00 I Quong Sing Co., 522 Carrall St 130 00
Quon Wo Yuen Co., 67 Dupont St. . 200 00
300 00 (.KioH).' Ying Chong. .5)3 Carrall St.. 80 00
Sam Kee Co., 433 Carrall St 847 00
490 00 See Lee Wo Co., 1 Canton St 264 00
230 00 Snng Chong Co., !)4 Dupont St 350 00
150 00 Slug Lee Co.. 445 Carrall St 100 00
80 00 Sine Lee W^ih, 430 Columbia Ave.. .. 160 00
Sang Lung Co., 5.34 Carrall St 280 00
160 00 Sui Ying Chong Co., 5.53 Carrall St.. 80 00
100 00 Sun Tai Co.. 545 Carrall St 160 00
600 00 Tai Chung Co., 409 Columbia Ave.. 250 00
400 00 Tai Fung Lung Co., 28 Dupont St.. 180 00
100 00 Tai Sing Co., 19 Pender St 500 00
200 00 T-ii Wo Chong Co., .554 Shanghai St.. 200 00
•iiO 00 Thomas Kee & Co., 110 Hastings St. . 161 00
60 00 T„ng Lee Co.. Ill Columbia Ave.. .. lOn 00
80 00 Tong Sing Tai Co., M2 CarraU St.. 120 00
150 00 Wah Chan & Co., 25 Pender St.. .. 120 00
600 00 Wah Lung Chang Co.. 510 Carrall St. 100 00
200 00 Wah Tin Look, Shanghai St 1,200 00
200 00 Wah Yiek .lung Co., 548 Shanghai St. 200 00
60 00 Wah Hing Co., 27 Dupont St 40 00
96 00 Wing Chin Tong Co., 5.38 Can-all St. . 65 00
96 00 Wing .lung Vm-n Co., 1 Dupont St.. .. 212 00
.360 00 Wing Get Chung Co., 17 Pender St.. 275 00
120 00 Wing Hing Co.. 534 Shanghai St. . . . 80 00
Wing Lee Lung Co., 552 Shanghai St. 100 00
180 00 Wing Mow Co.. 102 Dupont St 100 00
40 00 Wing Sing Co., 77 Dupont St 85 00
160 00 Wing Hong On Co., 38 Pender St.. .. 275 00
200 00 Wing Yuen Co.. 16 Dupont St.. .. 160 00
Wo On Co., 34 Hastings St 120 00
60 00 Wo Sang Co., 50 Hastings St 300 00
125 00 Wo Yuen Co., 134 Dupont St 80 00
600 00 Wing Sang Co., 51 Dupont St 5.50 00
2.50 00 Yee Sang, 14 Canton St 20 00
200 00 Yee Yee Quong Co., 556 Shanghai St. 150 00
75 00 Yat Lara Kin Co., 516 Carrall St.. .. 120 00
130 00 Yick Wo Co., 13 Dupont St KO 00
200 00 Yick Yuen Co., 437 Carrall St.. .. 200 00
200 00 Vick Sun Low Co., 529 Carrall St. . 160 00
150 00 Yuen Sing Co.. 136 Dupont St.. .. 13.5 00
160 00 Yuen Y'uen Co., 31 Dupont St 2tO 00
160 00 Vet Sing Co.. 16 llfv^tings St 50(H)
80 00 Yuen Wah. 5 Pender St 200 00
160 00 Young Sun Co.. 534 Pender St.. .. 120 00
80 00
Total $ 20,2,36 00
Chinese Board of Trade $ 2,569 00
Also —
Allowance on account of It gal (xpenscs 1,000 OH
Total allowed on actual claims 3,185 00
Total allowed on resultant claims 20,236 00
Total $26,990 00
7-8 EDWARD VII.
SESSIONAL PAPER No 74g
A. 1908
RKPOHT
W. L. MACKENZIE KING, C.M.G.
DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR
COMMISSIONER
APPOINTED TO INVESTIGATE INTO THE
LOSSES SUSTAINED BY THE JAPANESE POPULATION
OF VANCOUVER, B.C.
ON THE OCCASION OF THE RIOTS IN THAT CITY
IN SEPTEMBER, 1907
PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT
OTTAWA
PRINTED UY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST
EXCELLENT MAJESTV
1908
]No. 74^—1908,]
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g A. 1908
ROYAL COMMISSION.
Commissioner: W. L. Mackenzie King, C.M.G.,
Deputy Minister of Lahoui:
Counsel representing Japanese Claimants: Howard J. Duncan, Esq.
Interpreter: T. I. N.\gao.
Stenographer: Francis W. Giddens,
Department of Labour.
74g-U
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g A. 1908
To His Excellency the Right Honourable Sir Albert Henry .George, Earl Grey, Vis-
count Howick, Baron Grey of Howick, in the County of Northumberland, in the
Peerage of the United Kingdom, and a Baronet; Knight Grand Cross of the
Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, &c., &c,, Governor
General and Commander in Chief of the Dominion of Canada.
i[.\Y IT Ple.\si: YoiR Excellen'CY:
The undersigned has the honour to submit to Your Excellency the report of W. L.
Mackenzie King, C.M.G., Deputy Minister of Labour, as Commissioner appointed to
inquire into the losses and damages sustained by the Japanese population in the city
of Vancouver in the province of British Columbia.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
(Sgd) RODOLPHE LEinEUX,
Minister of Labour.
OiT.\\v.\, June 26, 1908.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g A. 1908
Commission :
Appointing William Lyon Mackenzie King, C.M.G., M.A., LL.B., a
Commissioner to inquire into the losses and damages sustained by the
Japanese population in the city of Vancouver, in the province of British
Columbia.
Grey. (Seal.) Canada.
Edward the Seventh, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender
of the Faith, Emperor of India.
To all to whom these Presents shall come, or whom the same may in anywise
concern. Greeting:
Whereas in and by an Order of our Governor General in Council bearing date
the twelfth day of October in the year of Our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and
seven (copy of which is hereto annexed) provision has been made for an inquiry by
our Commissioner therein and hereinafter named, into the losses and damages sus-
tained by the Japanese population in the city of Vancouver in the province of British
Columbia on the occasion of the recent riots in the said city.
Now Know Ye, that by and with the advice of our Privy Council for Canada,
wo do by these presents, nominate, constitute and appoint William Lyon Mackenzie
King, C.M.G., M.A., LL.B., of the city of Ottawa, in the province of Ontario, Deputy
Minister of Labour, to be our Commissioner to conduct such inquiry.
To havC) hold, exercise and enjoy the said office, place and trust unto the said
William Lyon Mackenzie King, together with the rights, powers, privileges, and
emoluments unto the said office, place, and trust of right and by law appertaining,
d^iring pleasure.
And We do Hereby, under the authority of Part I, of the Inquiries Act, Chapter
104, Revised Statutes, 1906, confer upon our said Commissioner, the power of sum-
moning before him any witnesses and of requiring them to give evidence on oath, or
on solemn affirmation, if they are persons entitled to affirm in civil matters, and orally
or in writing, and to produce such documents and things as our said Commissioner
shall deem requisite to the full investigation of the matters into which he is hereby
appointed to examine.
And We do Hereby require and direct our said Commissioner to report to our
Governor General in Council the result of the investigation, together with the evidence
taken before you, and any opinion you may see fit to express thereon.
In Testimony Whereof we have caused these our Letters to be made Patent and
the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed : Witness, Our Eight Trusty and Right
7
8 VANCOUTER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Well-beloved Cousin the Eight Honourable Sir Albert Henry George, Earl Grey,
Viscount Howick, Baron Grey of Howick, in the County of Northumberland, in the
Peerage of the United Kingdom, and a Baronet, Knight Grand Cross of Our Most
Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, etc., etc.. Governor General
and Commander in Chief of our Dominion of Canada.
At our Government House, in our City of Ottawa, this twelfth day of October,
in the year of Our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and seven, and in the seventh
year of our Reign.
By Command.
(Signed) E. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
(Signed) A. B. Ayleswokth,
Attorney General,
Canada.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g A. 1908
REPORT OF W. L. ilACKENZIE KING, C.M.G.,
Commissioner, appointed to inquire into the Losses and Damages sustained by the
Japanese population in the cit;/ of Vancouver in the province of British
Columbia, on the occasion of Riots in that city in September, 1907.
To His Excellency the Go\-ernor General in Council:
I have the honour to submit the following report on the results of my investigation
into the losses and damages sustained bj- the Japanese population in the city of
Vancouver, B.C., occasioned by the anti- Asiatic riot of September, 1907, which investi-
gation was undertaken in pursuance of the Royal Commission issued to nie on the
I4th day of October, 1907, a copy of which is annexed hereto.
The riot to which reference is made in the commission occurred in the foreign
quarter of the city of Vancouver on Saturday, September 7, 1907, and was followed
by considerable unrest among the Orientals of the city during the days immediately
following. A claim on behalf of the Japanese residents of the city of Vancouver for
losses incurred was presented on. October 7, to the Dominion government, on behalf
of the government of Japan, through Mr. T. Nosse, His Imperial Japanese Majestys
Consul General, resident at Ottawa. The losses were estimated at a sum amounting
to $13,519.45, of which $2,405.70 was claimed for actual damage to property, and
$11,113.75 as resultant or consequential damages.
Having received with my commission copies of the correspondence between Mr.
Nosse and the Canadian government in reference to this matter, I immediately called
upon Mr. Nosse and informed him of my appointment. I arranged for the insertion
of a public notice in the Japanese papers of Vancouver, informing the Japanese resi-
dents of that city of the investigation to be held, and requesting parties who desired to
present claims to appear on certain specified days. The insertion of this notice, which
appeared in the Japanese papers on the following day, was arranged by telegram
through the good offices of Mr. Nosse and Mr. K. Morikawa. His Imperial Japanese
Majesty's Consul, resident at Vancouver. I left Ottawa on October 14 and arrived
in Vancouver on Sunday, the 20th. On Monday, the 21st instant, I caused the follow-
ing notice to be inserted in the local newspapers in the city of Vancouver: —
' Public Notice.
' The undersigned, appointed Commissioner under the Inquiries Act,
Chapter 104, Revised Statutes, to conduct an inquiry into the losses and
damages sustained by the Japanese population in Vancouver, on the occasion
of the recent riots in this city, hereby uotiiies all parties having claims to
present, that he will be at Pender Hall, Pender street, between the hours of
10.30 a.m. and 4.30 p.m., on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, the 22nd,
23rd and 24th instant respectively, to receive such claims; also that no claim
9
10 VAyCOUVER RIOTS
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g
will be entitled to consideration which is not presented within the time herein
specified. The examination and taking of evidence in respect of said claims
will be commenced forthwith, and the undersigned will be prepared to hear the
representations of any parties desiring to appear or be hoard before the com-
mission in respect of any or all of the said claims.
' (Sgd). W. L. MACKENZIE KING,
' Commissioner,'
Dated at Vancouver, October 21, 1907.'
On the same day I sent the following communication to Mr. George Cowan, K.C.,
solicitor for the city of Vancouver: —
' Vancouver, B.C., October 21, 1907.
' Sir, — I beg to inform you that having come to Vancouver as Commis-
sioner appointed under the Inquiries Act, Chapter 104, Revised Statutes, to
conduct an inquiry into the losses and damages sustained by the Japanese
population on the occasion of the recent riots in this city, I am giving public
notice to all parties having claims to present that I will be in Pender Hall,
Pender street, between the hours of 10..30 a.m. and 4.30 p.m. on Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday, the 22nd, 23rd and 24th instant, respectively, to
hear and receive such claims; also, that no claim will be entitled to considera-
tion which is not presented within the time herein specified. Also, that the
examination and taking of evidence in respect of said claims will be com-
menced forthwith, and that any parties will have a right to appear, who may
desire to be heard before the Commission in respect of any or all of the said
claims.
I have the honour to be, sir, -
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) W. L. MACKENZIE KING,
Commissioner.
Geo. Cowan, Esq.,
Solicitor for City of Vancouver,
Vancouver, B.C.'
The sittings of tlic Commission were held at Pender Ilall, Pender street, the first
sitting being on the morning of Tuesday, October 22. From that day sittings were
held continuously as follows: October 23, 24, 25, 26, 30 and 31, and November 1, 2, 4
and 5, both morning and afternoon sessions being held on most of the days mentioned.
Mr. Howard J. Duncan appeared as counsel for the Japanese government. The
Dominion government not being represented by counsel, the examination in chief of
the several claimants and witnesses was conducted by myself as Commissioner. Mr.
Duncan presented the several claims and assisted in the examination of witnesses.
Mr. Cowan, city solicitor, was present at the opening of the inquiry, but stated that
as the purpose of the investigation was to assess damages and not to determine the
question of liability as. to their payment, he had been instructed by the city not 'to
appear. Mr. Morikawa, Ilis Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul, was i)rcscnt through-
JAPANESE CLAIMS 11
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g
out the inquiry, but with the exception of making a statement before the Commission
in. reference to the claims presented took no part in the proceedings. Mr. F. W.
Giddens, of the Department of Labour, acted as stenographer, and Mr. T. I. Nagao as
interpreter. In all, 80 witnesses were examined, which number included the several
claimants, the Chief of Police and other civic officials, the architect who had prepared
the estimate of damages to property, those who had assisted in this work, and one or
two other persons. Each claim was accompanied by a statutory declaration setting
forth particulars in regard to the amount, and in the case of actual damages, photo-
graplis showing the damage done to the premises of the several claimants were also
put in. There were 107 claims in all, 54 being for actual, and 53 for resultant or
consequential losses.
The hearing of evidence was concfude d on November 5. By the 8th of the month
the statement annexed hereto, showing the amounts to which, in my opinion, the
several claimants were entitled, had been prepared, and on the same day, I informed
Your Excellency in Council, through the Honourable the Secretary of State, of the
total losses as estimated as a result of the investigation. This sum was fixed at
$9,036, of which $1,553.58 was on account of actual damages, and the balance on
account of resultant losses. The Japanese consulate did not present any account for
expenses incurred in preparing estimates of claims, or for the professional services of
counsel who appeared before the Commission on behalf of the Japanese government.
As the careful preparation of the estimates and claims, and the presence of counsel,
greatly facilitated the examination, I was of the opinion that the consulate should be
reimbursed the amount expended therefor, and that an allowance should be made on
account of legal expenses. I therefore recommended, in the communication to the
Honourable the Secretary of State, that in addition to the payment of the above
amount, the Japanese consulate should be reimbursed the sum of $600, expended in
the preparation of estimates and claims, and be allowed on account of legal expenses
a sum of one thousand dollars. I further recommended that the claimants should be
reimbursed the sum of $189, expended by them in declaring their claims. On Novem-
ber 13, I received a communication by wire, informing me that the several sums as
recommended for payment had been approved by Council; and directing me to issue
cheques to the several claimants in payment of their losses; also stating that the neces-
sary funds for this purpose had been placed to my credit in the Bank of Montreal at
Vancouver. Having made payment of the several claims, I obtained from each of the
parties a release in the following form : —
' KNOW ALL MEN BY THESE PRESENTS, that I,
of the city of Vancouver, in the district of Burrard, in
the province of British Columbia, for and in consideration of the sum
of dollars, to me in hand paid by the government of the
Dominion of Canada, in full of all claims for damages or otherwise, which
I have had or might or could have, by reason of injuries to me and to my
property and business or trade or calling, arising out of riots or disturbances
in the said city of Vancouver, on or about the 7th day of September, 1907,
against the said government, or against the government of the said province
of British Columbia, or against the municipal corporation of the said city of
Vancouver, or against any other corporate body or person or persons whereso-
12 TAyCOUTER niOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ever withiu the Dominion of Canada, have remised, released and forever
discharged, and by these presents do for myself, my heirs, executors, admin-
istrators and assigns, remise, release and forever discharge the said govern-
ments, the said municipal corporations, and all other bodies corporate and
persons whomsoever and their legal representatives, of and from all and all
manner of action and actions, cause and causes of action, suits, debts, dues,
sums of money, claims and demands whatsoever at law or in equity, which I
have had, or now have, or which I or my heirs, executors, administrators or
assigns might or could have against the said governments, municipal cor-
porations, bodies corporate or persons, or any of them, by reason or on account
of, or in connection with, my said claims for damages above mentioned.
'IX WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my band and seal
this day of A.D. 1908.'
' Signed, Sealed and Delivered
in the presence of '
The evidence taken before the Commission will illustrate in a sufficiently compre-
hensive manner the bases on which the amounts allotted to ihe several claimants were
estimated. It is not necessary, therefore, to more than indicate in this rejwrt, the
nature of the investigation, and the points to which it was necessary to direct special
attention. Most of the claims presented appear to have beeu fair and reasonable. The
fact that there is a difference of some $4,500 between the total amount claimed and
the total amount awarded, is to be accounted for by somewhat exorbitant claims
made by one or two merchants for alleged losses in business, and more or less exces-
sive claims made by some of the Japanese boarding-house keepers, who claimed
indemnity for a time exceeding that for which it appeared reasonable to make an
allowance, or who, in hiring guards for the protection of their property during the
time of the riot and the days immediately succeeding, failed to exercise reasonable
judgment in the amounts they expended on this score. It would appear, however, that
the more responsible persons of the Japanese community in Vancouver, and, in
particular, the merchant class, fixed with moderation the amount of the loss for which
compensation was requested. In individual cases the amounts would indicate that
the claimants had in mind an ' amende honorable,' in the nature of some recognition
rather than full compensation of actual losses or damages sustained.
At the time of the riot the Japanese consulate in Vancouver took immediate
stei)s to ascertain the extent of the damage done to the several properties of the
Japanese residents in the city. The services of a competent architect were retained
to ascertain the actual damage and estimate the consequent loss. The consulate also
retained a solicitor to assist in the preparation and declaring of the several claims,
and the information thus collected was duly placed before the Commission. The civic
authorities of Vancouver did not take any steps to ascertain the amount of flie damage
occasioned by the riot. With the exception, therefore, of the statement prepared >»t
the instance of the Japanese consulate, there was no guide to the actual losses other
than the sworn statement of the several claimants, and the receipts produced by them
for expenditures incurred in making good the damage to their property. As receipts
were produced in all cases save those in which repairs had not been made at the time
JAPANESE CLAIMS 13
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g
the Commission was sitting, there was not the trouble of assessing the losses on this
score, which might otherwise have been occasioned. The one difficulty which presented
itself was that of estimating the amount to be allowed a tenant, where- the owner of
the property was a person other than a Japanese resident of the city^ In all such cases
a careful examination was made of the terms of tenancy and damages were allowed to
the extent to which there was reason for believing that the losses incurred would fall
upon the Japanese claimant. In the case of the actual damages, the estimate sub-
mitted was somewhat in excess of the amount subsequently expended in making
repairs. With the preparation of this estimate the several claimants had had nothing
to do, and the difference in amount was one which a British subject assessing losses
imder the circumstances, might have reasonably conceded, in the absence of specific
contracts or actual receipts. In estimating the resultant or consequential damages,
special regard was had to the evidence of the civic authorities in regard to the nature
and effect of the disturbances, as well as to the peculiar circumstances in which the
Japanese colony in Vancouver found itself placed in consequence of the unexpected
and unprovoked nature of the attack made upon it. In some cases a personal visit
was made to the premises and an inspection had of the books of the claimants.
I desire to gratefully acknowledge the assistance given and the many courtesies
extended throughout the inquiry and during my stay in Vancouver, by Mr. Moribawa
and the members of the Japanese consulate. While Mr. Morikawa took no part in
the proceedings before the Commission, he was unsparing in his eflForts to facilitate
and expedite the inquiry, and but for the careful manner in which he anticipated
iu many particulars the needs of the Commission, it is certain that the investigation
would have been materially prolonged. To Mr. Howard J. Duncan, the able counsel
of the Japanese government, the thanks of the Commission are also specially due,
both for the care with which he advanced and safeguarded the interests of the
several claimants, and for the assistance given in eliciting facts relevant to the sub-
ject of the inquiry.
At the conclusion of the inquiry, the following communications in regard to the
award of the Canadian government were exchanged between Mr. Morikawa and
myself : — •
Vakcou^tb, B.C., November 15, 1907.
' Dear Sir, — On behalf of the Government of Canada, I beg to inclose
a cheque for the sum of $1,600, authorized by Order in Council, and payable
to the order of His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consulate at Vancouver,
being an allowance of $1,000 on account of legal expenses and reimbiirse-
ment to the amount of $600 for amounts expended by the Japanese Consulate
in the preparation of estimates and claims of losses and damages sustained
by the Japanese population in the recent riots in the city of Vancouver and
the presentation of these claims before the Royal Commission appointed to
inquire into the said losses and damages.
' The Japanese Consulate at Vancouver has not presented any account
for expenses incurred in the preparation of estimates and claims, or for
professional services of counsel who appeared before the Commission on
behalf of the Japanese government. When, as Commissioner appointed to
inquire into the losses and damages sustained by the Japanese population in
14 ■ VAyCOVVER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
Vancouver, I requested you to kindly let me have a statement of the amounts
expended by the Japanese Consulate, you intimated, in reply, that it was not
your intention or the desire of the Japanese Consulate to allow a considera-
tion by the Government of Canada of any expenses which the. Consulate may
have incurred in the preparation and presentation of claims made on behalf
of the Japanese population in Vancouver.
' As you are aware, the careful preparation of estimates and claims and
the presence of counsel greatly facilitated the inquiry. This of itself, in the
opinion of the Dominion Government, is a sufficient reason why all such out-
lays should be fully met. I have, therefore, to express the hope that on further
consideration, you will find it possible to accept the inclosed cheque on
account of expenses incurred by the Japanese Consulate in this connection.
' The government has, by Order in Council, also authorized the payment
of the sum of $9,036, on account of losses and damages sustained by the
Japanese population in the recent riots, and the reimbursement to claimants
of the sum of $139, expended by them in declaring their claims. Cheques in
payment of the amounts due the several claims are at present being made out
in accordance with the amount assessed as a result of the inquiry under
Royal Commission just concluded. These cheques I hope to be in a position
to hand to the several claimants sometime to-morrow.
' I am, dear sir,
' Very respectfully yours,
' Sgd.) W. L. MACKENZIE KING,
' M. KiSHiRO MoRiKAWA. ' Commissioner.'
' His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consul,
' Vancouver, B.C.'
' His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Consulate,
' Vancouver, B.C., November 19, 1907.
' Sir, — Permit me on behalf of my government, to thank you for your letter
of the 15th instant, inclosing a cheque of $1,600 as an allowance for expenses,
legal and incidental, to my government, in connection with the preparation
and investigation of claims by Japanese residents for damages to their
property in the unfortunate riot of the 7th September. I also thank you
for the notification of the allowance of $9,036 and costs of declaring claims
by the Canadian government for the payment of losses and damages sustained
by the Japanese residents in the riot.
' I cannot too stronglj' express the satisfaction and approval of my gov-
ernment in your award and adjustment of the losses and damages sustained
by the Japanese residents here, a feeling, I am sure, shared by every claimant.
If I may be permitted to say anything of a i)ersonal character, I would assure
you that the great skill, unvarying patience and urbanity which marked your
conduct of the Commission, has done much to restore the feeling of my
countrymen here that the Canadian government and the people of Canada
are opposed to every element whose puri'oso is to defy the ordinary rules of
decency in life, and the wider laws which bind nations in friendly accord.
JAPAyESE CLAIMS 15
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g
' While appreciating the high and honourable motives which have
prompted you and your government to send me the cheque for $1,600, I regret
that it is impossible for my government to accept a reward for protecting the
interests and property of the subjects of Japan. This, and this only, is my
reason for returning to you the cheque for $1,600.
' You may assure your government of my grateful acknowledgment of
their generous course, a policy which, I am sure, will make for an increase of
good feeling between our peoples.
' I have the honour to be, sir,
' Your obedient servant,
' (Sgd.) K. MORIKAWA,
' H. I. Japanese M.'s Consul.
' W. L. ]\[acke.n-zie King. C.M.G.,
' Commissioner,
' Vancouver.'
The friendly sentiments to which the letter of the Japanese Consul herein quoted
gives expression were also a feature of the address of Mr. Duncan, the counsel of the
Japanese government, at the last session of the Commission. Inasmuch as this report
contains little or no mention of the riot, of which the present inquiry was a conse-
quence, or of the light in which the occurrence was viewed by the Japanese and
Canadian peoples respectively, it may be fitting to quote, in conclusion, Mr. Duncan's
remarks and what was said in reply. Japan and Canada will gladly forget an incident
so sincerely deprecated by the peoples of both countries; they will cherish, however,
the many expressions of reciprocal good-will of which the incident furnished the
occasion.
ilr. Duncan said: —
' Mr. Commissioner, on behalf of the Government of Japan, as counsel
for them, on behalf of the Japanese residents of Vancouver, I beg to thank
you for the very cordial, patient, and attentive manner with which you have
dealt with the evidence of what must have been to you a very tiresome class
'jf witnesses, by reason of the interpretation of their evidence being necessary,
to assure you that those who have been affected by this deplorable riot have
the greatest and fullest confidence in the fairness and correctness of the
judgment which you will render in this case. It is a matter, also, for con-
gratulation, with the relationship which exists between the British Empire
and the Empire of Japan, that this matter has been approached by the sub-
jects of Japan in this city without any manner of feeling, without anything
but the greatest consideration for the maintenance of good feeling between
themselves and the other residents of this city. Whatever feeling may exist
in unhappy matters of this sort, I am advised and instructed by the Japanese
residents of this city, that they have no feeling of enmity, no feeling but
that of kindness and regard for the people of the city of Vancouver. They
look upon this unhappy incident, not as the outcome of racial feeling by the
white population of this district against them; they look upon it rather as
74f— 3
16 VANCOUVER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
the result of agitation by people who have not that regard for the maintenance
of good feeling in this country, but who for the purpose of creating a
condition, have, inadvisedly, they believe, attempted to create a feeling of
antagonism to them. They cannot believe that the sober, self-respecting,
honourable man who has been brought up with the glorious privileges and
benefits which the educational system of a country such as this gives, of the
splendid advantages of the teachings of religion and of principles of Iionour
and truth, that those who have had the beneficent influences of the higher
civilization for eighteen hundred years, could wantonly and without provo-
cation, for the exclusive purpose of venting an \inholy passion, attack a
defenceless and law-abiding people. The teachings of history all tell us that
the decadence of a people begins when and so soon as they provoke within
their midst a feeling of racial hatred. There is nothing that saps the
integrity of a nation, that destroj's the beauty and the perfection of civiliza-
tion such as the persecution of a people because they hold different religious
tenets, or because they are sprung from a different race. Because He was
born of a different race, He suffered death that all men might live, and if
there is any virtue in this great civilization of the western world due to the
teachings of the Christian religion, these virtues make for what is known as
the brotherhood of man, no matter what race or from what class he may
spring. True, we have instances in which warfare plays her part, of where
race struggles against race for dominance, but never has it been known where
races and peoples are allies and friends and serving each other in the great
purpose of the world, that one attempts the growth and development of a
feeling of racial hatred.
' The people of Japan, before western civilization had touched her
borders, had their own peculiar civilization of a very high order among the
eastern nations of the world, but through the pledges of an Anglo-Saxon
people, the British people and the American peoples, they opened their doors
that the American and the British subject could come in amongst them, and
could teach them this new civilization, this higher life which we boasted we
had, and the result was that the Japanese people cast aside their old civiliza-
tion and began to take upon themselves the civilization of the western world.
Millions of money have been subscribed by the British people and by the
American people for the purpose, and the exclusive purpose, of sending to
the shores of Japan, missionaries of every denomination, church and sect,
known to the Christian religion, and it is to the religious teachings of the
Christian faith amongst the Japanese people, and the introduction of the
arts and sciences of the western world, and the beneficent influences of com-
merce and contact with the citizen of the United States and Great Britain,
that the Japanese have developed within fifty years to be one of the first
powers of the earth. And I say it speaks well for western civilization, it
speaks well for the British Empire and the American people, that they found
a people like the Japanese who were capable of taking upon themselves the
the resonsibilities which we of this western world practically forced upon their
attention. And from instances within our own recollection, the Japanese
liave shown not only in the arts of peace, in the capacity of their men's
JAPANESE CLAIMS . 17
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g
intellect, but in the still more glorious — or deemed more glorious — work, they
have shown themselves to be capable defenders of their honour and their
country. In the recent struggle between Japan and Russia, so great, so
wonderful was their equipment, was the effectiveness of their general military
system, and of their naval tactics, that the world which had before then
looked upon them askance and with doubt, are to-day their strongest and
most determined admirers. But referring to the softer side of their natures,
we know that during the trouble we had in South Africa, when day after
day reports came that our army was in trouble and distress, the Japanese
residents of this city voluntarily took up a subscription amongst themselves,
exclusively to lend aid and assistance to the Canadian volunteers who went
forth from this Dominion to assist the mother country in her great struggle
for supremacy on the continent of Africa. In every feature of a public
character in this city they have upon all occasions shown themselves anxious
to play their little part, and play it honourably, to assist in any project which
was gotten up for the benefit of this city.
' These remarks are forced upon me in considering the question of the
security the Japanese residents of this city felt on the deplorable night of
the 7th of September. There can be no question that in their district, with
their wives and children about them, plying their callings in the ordinary and
usual way, relying upon the good sense of the people of the city, and the
security which that good sense meant to them, there can be no doubt that
they were lulled practically into what has turned out to be a false iwsition.
But far be it from the local Japanese to lay any blame upon the city council
or upon the citizens of Vancouver, because they feel that neither the govern-
ment of this city, nor the people of this city are imbued with any feeling of
hatred against them. But the fact remains they felt they were secure, and
they felt they were secure because they knew they were under the law of our
country, because they knew, from fifty years of experience as a nation, thartr
if there is one thing that British government stands for. it is the protection
of life and of property, and for the principle that a man who does no wrong
against the laws of the country, is protected under the British flag.
' The Japanese residents of this city now feel secure under the protection
of the British flag, and they, through me, appeal to the better nature and to
the good sense of the people of this city to ensure to them what they believe,
namely, that there is no feeling of hatred or of malice among the people of
this city against them. And I am sure, as a British subject, that the people
of this city are not going to permit any other feeling than a feeling of respect
and regard for the Japanese i)eople, so long as they observe the laws of this
country, and behave themselves as good and respected citizens.
' It is a matter of small consequence to the Japanese residents of this
city, this matter of damages. It is a matter of considerable consequence and
considerable importance to them that their national pride, the same pride
that a British subject feels because he is a British subject, should be injured
or affected. The love of country is one of the strongest and noblest passions
that can move a mortal. And the man who decries or sneers at anyone because
of his pride of the country of bi§ birth, is a man who, whatever excellent
74g— 2
18 TAN GOUT ER RIOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
training he may have had, or whatever fine intellectual accomplishments he
may have attained, is wanting in the highest and noblest attribute that goes
to the making up of the full stature of a man. And I say if there is one
thing that is a burning passion with the Japanese people, it is a passion of
loyalty for their country, as a people they have shown themselves to be will-
ing to make any sacrifice, yea, sacrificing themselves even unto death, to
uphold the standard and the place of their country among the nations of
the world. And therefore, it is well that the people of Vancouver, glorying
in the fact that they are British subjects, or the i)eople of the United States,
glorying in the fact that they are subjects of the United States, should accord
to other x)eoples the same measure of national pride that they feel themselves
for their own country.
' The next features that I shall dwell upon, and I shall be brief, are the
features with reference to the claims which have been put in for adjustment
before this Commission. I think, sir, you wiU agree with me, although I am
counsel for protecting the interests of these various claimants, that from the
evidence which has been adduced, the natxire and character of this attack on
the 7th, the extent of damage to the buildings, the subsequent events, fire at
the school house, the riot on Sunday evening, and the other events which
followed — minor ones — that the Japanese residents had every fear and every
cause for fear and alarm for at least a fortnight, if not longer, after this
attack. Coming then, to the question of consequential damages, I think it
but a correct principle that anything which naturally flows by reason of these
deeds of violence, would be properly within the term " consequential damages."
I think, sir, that while some of these claimants have only claimed for three
days, some for six, one I believe as high as fourteen, that regard must be
had to the conditions of each of those individuals, and also to the general
feeling which has manifestly controlled the actions and means of these
residents. While some may have underestimated their damages, I do not think
that any have over-estimated them. It may be that no suiBcient evidence of
a legal character can be placed before you upon which you could base an
award of the full amount claimed by these parties, but I think the demoraliz-
ation of the trade in the district, of the influence which this period had upon
it, can never be recompensed by the claims which have been placed before you.
• ♦•«**
' In conclusion, I will rest our case with entire confidence in your judg-
ment in the matter, feeling certain that whatever is done will be done on
broad, generous principles of right and justice rather than upon technicalities,
which, while very obvious in courts of law ,are not of such importance in
matters which are termed purely of investigation and inquiry. Personally,
I thank you for the attention you have given mo. and the courtesies extended
to me during the sittings of the Commission.'
Replying to Mr. Duncan, I said:
' I wiU not, perhaps, be accused of going outside the scope of my commis-
sion if, before concluding, I would venture to again refer to the genuine
regret which has already been so widely expressed of the incident which
JAPANESE CLAIMS 19
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g
occurred here, and which has been responsible for the present investigation.
A gratifying feature of the investigation has been that it has brought forth
from the city ofBcials a voluntary statement, and a unanimous statement,
that in their opinion, the attack which was made upon the Japanese and
upon the Asiatics generally, on the night of September 7, was unwarranted
and unjustifiable and greatly to be deplored. Moreover, it has brought forth
the statement, or better, the assurance that the attack in their opinion, was
not directed against the Japanese in particular, but was begotten, rather,
of the excitement of the moment and occasioned by a feeling of alarm which
has grown in certain quarters, in consequence of the increase — of the sudden
and large increase — in the number of persons coming to this part from the
Orient. The civic officials have been careful to state that in their opinion
there was nothing personal in the incident, that for the character of the
Japanese they have, I think I am right in saying, nothing but admiration;
that the trouble has been entirely one consequent upon an increase in num-
bers, and has to do with numbers rather than particular peoples or any
characteristics of those peoples.
' Mi. Dapcan has stated that the Japanese people are inclined to regard
the feeling as the result of agitation of persons who have not had at heart
the maintenance of good feeling between Japan and Canada. If, in that
remark, Mr. Duncan had reference to the particular incident which occurred
on that night, I think he is quite right. Certainly those who were responsible
for that unfortunate occurrence could not have had at heart the interests of
this country in the matter of the maintenance of good feeling between Japan
and ourselves. On the other hand, if the feeling to which reference
lias been made relates to the feeling which has been engendered
here in consequence of a sudden and great increase in the numbers of persons
from the Orient, then I am inclined to think that it would hardly be fair to
say that the persons who share that feeling are not necessarily or have no<
necessarily at heart the interests both of this country and of Japan. A
feeling against the sudden influx in large numbers of peoples from other
parts of the world is one thing, and is quite compatible with a desire to main-
tain the friendliest relations between the peoples of those countries and our-
selves. An expression of opinion, or rather the giving to that feeling expres-
sion in the form of an incident such as we have been forced to consider here,
is quite a different thing, and the two should be kept distinctly apart.
' My commission allows me to consider only such losses as are apparent,
or as are capable of definite and certain ascertainment. I think Mr. Duncan
has well said, that the loss of property occasioned by this riot, is, in the
minds of the Japanese people, a small thing in comparison with the injury
which may have been done to the pride of the Japanese people in their race
and nationality. If these attacks had been directed against the Japanese,
because they were Japanese, there might be reason for a feeling of injured
pride. When, however, we consider, and the evidence here has gone to show
that we are right in so considering, that this attack was not directed against
the Japanese personally, but that it was, as I have already said, a matter
20 TANCOaVER RtOTS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1966
begotten of alarm occasioned in consequence of the increased immigration
from the Orient generally, the Japanese will, I think, feel, or have reason to
feel, that there has not been on the part even of those who took a hand in
this deplorable riot, any desire to injure or oSend their pride as a people in
any way whatever.
' However, to a proud and sensitive people such as the Japanese, the
general expression of regret on the part of the people of Canada for the
unfortunate incident which has occurred, will be a more fitting amende for
such indignities as they may have suflEered, than any money compensation,
however considerable it might be.'
All of which is respectfully submitted.
(Sgd.) W. L. MACKENZIE laNG,
' Commissioner.
Dated at Ottawa the 26th day of June, 1908.
JAPANESE CLAIMS
21
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 74g
APPENDIX.
Statement showing amounts allowed claimants for actual and resultant losses and for
declaring claims.
( 'laiiiiant.
Okada Kumataro
.lapanese Boarding House Union.
Nissin Ooshi Co
Canada Kangyo Co
Tamura Torakichi
-Matsumiya Sotojiro
Matsumoto Takeniatsii
I.somura Hatsutaro
Yaniashita Hichire
Ikeda Hisajiro
Asahi Rice Mills Co.
.\9an0 ti-omey
Koniura Takejiio
Matsubayashi Nakataro
Nakagawa Gentaro
Ishikawa Katsuzo
Miyauchi Otukichi
Nakazeki Santaro
Sekine Yugoro
Ysuchida Kaniejiro
I'chida Sentaro
Suga Motaro
Ebata Ishimatsu
Saegusa Teinosuke
"The C.-\nadian News," (Goro
Kabmagi)
Ikawa Matsujiri)
Uajima Chikiu
Hatsugoro Snyuki
Uchida Kina
Tomoda .Tunkichi
Hidehira Sadajiro
Hori .lenya
Mi^rino Eijiro
Yoneda Yoshiniatsu
Nishiinura Kanzaburo ... -..
Shiroyama Ichitani
Kawasaki Yasuke
■Tapan, Canada Trust Saving Co..
Sonoda Otomatsu
Taniguciii Kumataro
.Mrs. .Shiniuuiura
Nayegawa Toniekichi
Hayashi (ienya ... .
Kato Tsunekichi
Nishimura Masuya
Ikeda Tonakichi
Nishimura Geujiu
Nishimura Sakutavf
Kihara .Tut.ari.
Tanaka Torasburo
Okawara Moichi ...
Tanabe Yuichi
.Japanese General Contract Co. .
Hayakawa Ichiro
Kawasaki Utakichi
Natauba Kikuniatsu
.Sato Mohei
Ito Rikutaro
Tanaka Sadakichi
.Japanese School
235
229
22s
228
232
202
151 E. Cordova at,
77 Market alley
107 Dupont St.
22 Pender st. . .
4.39 Alexandra st
9,175 00
JAPANESE CLAIMS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX— Conh'nwerf.
Total amount allowed claimants on account of actual and
resultant losses, and amounts expended in declaring
claims $9,175
Amount expended in declaring claims 139
Total amount allowed on account of actual and resultant
losses $9,036
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 82 A. 1908
RETURN
(82)
To AN Order of the House of Commons, dated the 18tli Deceniher, 1907, for a letuin
showing the total amount jwiid by this Government each year, during the past five
years' towards mail subsidies to steainsliips ; the names of the countries served,
the names of steamers and contractors, and the steamship subventions.
R. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
OTTAWA, January 17, I'JOb.
P. Peli.etikr, Esq.,
Acting Under Secretary of State,
Ottawa.
Sir : — I beg to send you herewith Return requested by your Reference No. 64,
being an Order of the House for return showing the total amount paid by this Govern-
ment eacli year during the past five years, toward mail subsidies to steamships ; the
names of the countries served ; the names of the steamers and contractors ; and the
steamsliip subventions.
I presume a copy of this Order has been sent to the Post Office Department as
they also pay mail subsidies
F. G. O'HARA,
Acting Deputy Minister.
82—1
MAIL HCBSIDIEti TO STEAMSHIPS
7-8 EDWARD Vn.. A. 1908
MAIL SVBftIDrF:i< TO STEAMSIBIPS
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 82
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MAIL RUBKIHIES TO S'TK.l USH/P.S
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
Post Office Department, Canada,
Ottawa, Januarj' 25, 1908.
P. Pelletier, Esq.,
Acting Under Secretary of State,
Ottawa.
Sir, — I beg to acknowledge receipt of your reference to this Department under
date 17th instant, of an Order of the House of Commons asking the total amount paid
by the Government each year during the past five years towards mail subsidies to steam-
ships, the names of the countries served, the names of the steamers and contractors and
the steamships subventions.
In reply I beg to inform you that no payments have been made by this Department
under the head of mail subsidies or steamship subventions as the terms are understood
in this Department.
I enclose you however, a statement giving the particulars asked for in the return
in regard to such mail services by steamships between this country and foreign ports
which have been paid for by this Department during the last five years. These services
were all performed under contract or agreement and no special vote for their perform-
ance was made by Parliament.
R. M. COULTEl',
Deputy postmaster General.
MAIL SVBSlDIEf! TO STEAMSHIPS
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 82
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RETURN
(93)
To an Order of the House of Commons, dated the 13th January, 1908, for a Keturn
showing the total amount of bounties paid by the Government since 1896, and
the amount for each year on each article.
R. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
Return to an Order of the House of Commons, dated 13th January, 1908, showing
the total amount of Bounties paid by the Government since 1896 ; and the
amount for each year on each article.
BOUNTY ox PIG IRON.
Fiscal Year. Amount Paid.
1896-97 $ 66,508 69
1897-98 165,654 25
1898-99 187,954 35
1899-1900 238,296 14
1900-01 351,259 07
1901-02 693,108 37
1902-03 619,948 72
1903-04 ■ 533,982 15
1904-05 624,666 98
1905-06 687,631 79
1906-07 385,231 28
1907-08 (to Jan. 13, 08) 653,982 16
$5,108,223 95
BOUNTY ON PUDDLED IRON BARS.
Fiscal Year. Amount Paid.
1896-97 $ 3,018 82
1897-98 7,705 78
1898-99 17,511 02
1899-1900 10.121 10
1900-01 16,703 09
1901-02 20,549 52
1902-03 6.702 14
1903-04 11,668 99
1904-05 7,894 83
1905-06 5,874 71
1906-07 311 66
— $108,061 66
93—1
BOUNTIES PAID
7-B EDWARD VII., A. 1908
BOUNTY OX STEEL LNGOTS.
Fiscal Year. Amount Paid.
1897-98 $ 54,411 68
1898-99 74,644 28
1899-1900 64,360 29
1900-01 100,057 74
1901-02 77,431 49
1902-03 775,153 92
1903-04 347,990 17
1904-05 676,318 43
1^1"' 940,999 79
1906-07 575,259 13
1907-08 (to Jan. 13, 08) 772,898 29
$4,459,525 21
BOUNTY ON STEEL BILLETS.
Fiscal Year.
1896-97. .
1897-98. .
Amount Paid.
17,366 16
13,042 35
30,408 51
BOUNTY ON ARTICLES MANUFACTURED FROM STEEL.
1903-04
1904-05
1905-06
1906-07
1907-08 (to Jan. 13, 1908)
Rolled
angles.
$ 9,872 88
9,703 21
64,667 03
39,962 75
Rolled
plates.
$ 75 33
254 31
2,751 32
469 17
Wire
rods.
$ 5,372 64
221,365 72
302,413 38
298,567 05
285,999 06
124,205 87
3,550 13
1,113,717 85
BOUNTY ON MANILA FIBRE.
Fiscal Year. Amount Paid.
1903-04 25,452 04
1904-05 13,789 27
1905-06 15,079 40
1906-07 13,595 49
1907-08 (to Jan. 13, 08) 26,684 89
$ 94,601 09
BOUNTY ON LEAD.
Fiscal Year. Amount Paid.
1898-99 $ 76,664 61
1899-1900 43,335 39
1902-03 4,380 00
1903-04 195,627 09
1904-05 330,645 12
1905-06 90,196 67
1906-07 1,994 75
742,843 C3
BOUNTIES PAID 3
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 93
BOUNTY OX SILVER ORE.
1900-01 30,000 00 30,000 00
BOUNTY ON" CRUDE PETROLEUM.
1904-05 350,047 17
1905-06 291,157 20
1906-07 266,553 08
1907-08 to Jan. 13. US) 296,377 94 1,204,135 39
$13,019,273 29
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 94 A. 1908
RETURN
94
To an Address of the Senate, dated Feb. 19, 1907, for a statement showing the names,
christian names, age and country of origin of all persons who, coming from the
British Isles, from English colonies or from other foreign lands, as strangers to
Canada, have been placed, whether by Order in Council, by decision of the Militia
Council, or otherwise, in any branch whatsoever of the military service of Canada,
in the permanent force or in the volunteer force, together with the date of each of
these appointments, the nature of the emyloyment, the rank of the holder (before
and after his appointment) and the yearly amount wliich he receives for his
services.
R. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
94—1
APPOiyTMEXTS TO MILITIA DEPAJiTMEyT
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
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APPOn'TMEyTS TO MILITIA DEPARTIIEXT
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
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API'OINrUENTS TO MIIJTIA DEI'AHTMENT
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 94
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7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 99 A. 1908
RETURN
(99)
To an Order of the House of Commons, dated the 29th January, 1908, for a copy
of all correspondence, telegrams, or reports, respecting the refusal of the
Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia to give his assent to a Bill passed by the
Legislature of that province in 1907, respecting immigration and commonly
reforred to as the Xatal Act. ^
K. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
Ottawa, April 23, 1907.
Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia,
Victoria, B.C.
Your premier Mr. McBride assured me that the Bill entitled, An Act to regulate
Immigration into British Columbia would not receive assent, but would be reserved
for consideration of government. C\an I rely on this assurance ?
E. W. SCOTT.
Victoria^ B.C., April 24, 1907.
Jlon. E. W. Scott,
Ottawa.
Tour telegram received. Bill referred to will not receive my assent.
JAS. DUNSMUIR,
Lt. Governor.
At Government House^
Victoria, B.C., April 29, 1907.
The Honourable
The Secre'tary of State.
Sir, — I have the honour to inform you that I prorogued the Legislative Assembly
of this Province on the 25th instant, at which time I assented to a number of Bills,
duplicate copies of which I am forwarding to-day by registered mail.
I have thought it advisable to reserve for the pleasure of His Excellency the
Governor General in Council, Bill No. 30, An Act to regulate Immigration into
British Columbia.
My reasons for doing so, are, that this Bill appears to be but a modified form of
99—1
2 IMMIGRATION TO BRITI8B COLVMBIA
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
other Acts dealing with the same subject, which have ah-eady been disallowed by His
Excellency, and shoidd it become law, might sei'iou?ly interfere with our international
relations and Federal interests.
JAMES DimSMUIE,
Lieutenant Governor.
Ott.^wa^ May 7, 1907.
His Honour
The Lieuteaiant Governor of British Columbia,
Victoria, British Columbia.
Sir, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch of the 29th
ultimo, acquainting the Seeretar.v of State that you have deemed it advisabla to
reserve for the pleasure of His Excellency the Governor General, Bill No. 30 of your
Legislature intituled ' An Act to regidate Immigration into British Columbia,' and
giving your reasons for this course. Your despatch has been submitted to His Excel-
lency the Governor General in Council.
I have to add that the duplicate copies of the Bills referred to in your despatch
as having been assented to by your Honour on the 26th ultimo have been duly
received.
J. POPE,
Under-Secretary oi State.
Victoria, B.C., January 27, 1908.
Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Ont.
Local House requests that 1 lay before them correspondence with you reserving
assent to Bill number thirty of last session, shall I accede to their request?
JAMES DUNSMUIR,
Lt. Governor.
Ottawa, January 27, 1908.
His Honour, —
James Dunsmuir^
Victoria, B.C.
Yes. My telegram and your answer in reference to Exclusion Bill thirty of last
session, together with your letter when forwarding Bills to Ottawa may be laid before
Provincial House.
E. W. SCOTT.
7-8 EDWARD VII.
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 112
A. 1908
RETURN
(112)
To an Order of the House of Commons, showing what pedigreed cattle the Central
Experimental Farm, Ottawa, sold during the years 1900 and 190", the number in
each year, the different breeds, name of purchaser, his place of residence, price
paid and breed.
R. W. SCOTT,
Secretary of State.
Purebred Registered Cattle sold off Central Experimental Farm in 1906.
No.
Description.
Purcliasei- and residence.
Price.
1
1
For brciditu/ purpos'S —
Sliorthom bull
Ayrdhire bull calf
J. Hartley, Magog, Que
Geo. A. Easton, Whitney, Ont
Geo. Ransom, Scotsburn, N. S., (for Scotsburn
Agricultural Society
50 00
2.T 00
1
Guernsey i
Guernsey bull. . .
40 IK)
1
W. H. McNish, Lvn. Ont
A. Dynes, Hintonburg, Ont
50 00
1
For sia\ttjhtcriii(] purposes —
72 00
5 head sold during year 1906.
Pure-bred Registered Cattle sold off Central E.xperimental Farm in 1907.
No. Description.
1
Purchaser and residence .
Price.
2
For brceditv/ purposes —
Gutrnsev bull calves . .
Sam Mackay, Stellarton, N.S
90 00
Ayrshire bull
Shorthorn bull calf
50 00
Johnny Bergeron, Orleans, Que
Chas. C. Castle. Winnipeg, Man
E. Carter, Knowlton, Que
30 00
Canadian i.
1. yearling heifer . ...
100 00
50 00
75 00
M
100 00
,. calf
Guernsey bull calf
25 00
D. G. Mackay. Heathbell, N.S
35 00
B. H. Lee, Berwick, X.S
Dartmouth Agricultural Society, Dartmouth,
^.S
W". A. McAllister, Quyon, Que
A. Cooper, Treesbank, Man
John D. Mclnnes, Glen Payne, Ont
A. Dvnes, Hintonburg, Ont . .
40 00
Shorthorn bull
bull calf
84 10
75 00
40 00
Ayrshir-^ n ... .
For slaughtering purposes —
Ayrshire bull
40 00
47 31
W. iiajor, Hintonburg, Ont
107 5")
18 head sold during year 1907 .
i
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 144 A- 1908
CORRESPONDENCE
(Ui)
Kespeeting proposed negotiations for a commercial arrangement between Canada and
France.
Foreign Office, July 4, 1907.
The Honourable E. Lister, C.V.C, &c., &c., &c.
Sm, — In my telegram Xo. 10 commercial of the 23rd of May I informed Sir F.
Bertie that Sir W. Laurier desired to open negotiations for new commercial conven'
tions with the French government, and I requested that His Excellency would endeav-
our to assist him in the attainment of his object.
You are doubtless cognizant of the Marquess of Eipon's despatch of June 28, 1895,
to the governors of the principal British colonies in which it was laid do\\ni that com-
mercial negotiations of this nature between His Majesty and the Sovereign of the
foreign state should be conducted by His Majesty's representative at the court of tha
foreign power. A copy of this despatch is enclosed herewith.
I do not however think it necessary to adhere in the present ease to the strict
letter of this regulation, the object of which was to secure that negotiations should
not be entered into and carried through by a colony unknown, to and independently of
His Majesty's government.
The selection of the negotiator is principally a matter of convenience and. in the
present circumstances, it will obviously be more practical that the negotiations should
be left to Sir W. Laurier and to the Canadian Minister of Finance or the Canadian
ministers, who will doubtless keep you informed of their progress.
If the negotiations are brought to a conclusion at Paris, you should sign the
agreement jointly with the Canadian negotiator, who would be given full powers for
the purpose.
GEEY.
Colonial Office to the GtOvernor General.
Downing Street.
June 8, 1892.
The Go\'ERNOR General, &c., &c., &c.
My Lord, — I have the honour to transmit to you for your information and for
that of your government, with reference to your despatch No. 1.35 of the 23rd of April,
the correspondence noted below respecting the ijroposed negotiation for a commercial
arrangement between Canada and France.
E. H. MEADE,
For the Secretary of State.
Downing Street.
May 14, 1892.
The Under Secretary of State,
Foreign Office.
Sm, — I am directed by Lord Knutsford to transmit to you to be laid before the
Marquis of Salisbury a copy of a despatch and its enclosures from the Governor Gen-
144—1
2 CANADA-FRAXCE COMMERCIAL RELATIOyS
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
eral of Canada urging that the High Commissioner for Canada should be empowered
with Her Majesty's Ambassador at Paris to negotiate a commercial arrangement
between Canada and France.
I am to request to be informed of the answer which Lord Salisbury would wish
to be returned to this despatch.
EDWAED WINGFIELD.
ViCTORU Chambers,
17 ViCTORU Street.
12 May, 1892.
The Under Secretary of State,
Colonial Office.
Sir, — I have the honour to refer the Secretary of State to the report of a Com-
mittee of the Privy Council of Canada, approved by His Excellency the Governor
General on the 16th ultimo, with regard to trade between the Dominion and France.
It is recommended in the minute in question that His Excellency the Governer
General should cause a despatch to be sent to the Secretary of State setting forth the
facts in connection with the existing commercial arrangements between the two
countries, and requesting that I might be appointed a joint plenipotentiary with His
Majesty's Ambassador at Paris, with a view to discussing the matter fully with the
French government in order, if possible, to arrange for an extension of the minimum
tarifE of France to imports from the Dominion, having regard to the circumstances
mentioned in the order in council.
I beg, therefore, to suggest that the Secretary of State will be so good as to move
the Foreign OfBce to request the Marquis of Dufierin and Ava to take advantage of a
favourable opportunity of enquiring of the French government whether they would
be prepared to enter upon negotiations for the purpose I have mentioned, and the
time that would be most convenient to them.
If the reply is favourable I shall arrange to proceed to Paris as soon as the neces-
sary formalities have been completed.
CHAELES TUPPER.
ViCTORU Chambers,
Victoria Street,
London, SW.,
June 1, 1892.
The Under Secretary of State,
Colonial Office.
Sir, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Mr. Wingfield's letter of
the 31st ultimo, with reference to the proposed negotiations for a commercial arrange-
ment between Canada and France. 1 have much pleasure in concurring in the sugges-
tion that Sir Joseph Crowe should be associated with the Marquis of Dufierin and
myself in the matter.
CHARLES TUPPER.
Paris, May 24, 1892.
RicnT Hon. the Marquis of Salisbury.
My Lord, — In acknowledging the receipt of Your Lordship's despatch No. 110
commercial of the 19th of May, respecting the proposition of the government of
Canada, tliat the High Commissioner should be empowered with myself to negotiate a
(■omiiicrcial arrangement between Canada and Friinoe, and asking my opinion on the
matter, 1 have the honour to state that I see no reason why a commuuicutiou embody-
CAXADA-FlliyCE COMMERCIAL RELATI0X8 3
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 144
iiigr the wishes of the Canadian government should not be submitted to the French
Minister for Foreign Affairs, with a fair expectation that the latter would be willing
to enter upon an examination of the Canadian proposals. Though I am quite willing
myself to assist the High Commissioner in the discharge of his tasks, so far as may be
in my power, I would venture to suggest that Sir Joseph Crowe should also take part in
the negotiations as he has done on previous occasion.
DUFFEKIN AND AVA.
Downing Street.
May 21, 1892.
The High Commissioner for Canad.\.
Sir, — In reply to your letter of the 12th instant respecting a trade arrangement
between Canada and France, I am directed by Lord Knutsford to acquaint you that
he had already caused a copy of the Dominion order in council referred to in your
letter to be communicated to the Foreign Office, and that a copy of your letter will
also be sent to that department.
I am to add that you wiU be informed as soon as a reply has been received from
the Foreign Office.
J. BRAMSTON.
Foreign Office,
May 30, 1892.
The Under Secretary of State,
Colonial Office.
Sm, — With reference to your letter of the 21st inst., respecting the proposed
negotiations on the subject of trade between Canada and France, I am directed by
the Marquis of Salisbury to transmit to you to be laid before Lord Knutsford a copy
of a despatch from His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris suggesting that Sir Joseph
Crowe should take part in these negotiations. Lord Salisbury would be glad to learn
Lord Knutsford's opinion on this suggestion.
I am to add that Sir J. Crowe has followed with the greatest attention all the
successive phases of the commercial policy of France.
JAMES W. LOWTHER.
Downing Street,
May 31, 1892
The High Commissioner for Canada.
Sir, — With reference to the letter from this department of the 21st inst., I am
directed by Lord Knutsford to transmit for your consideration a copy of a letter from
the Foreign Office enclosing a copy of a despatch from His Majesty's Ambassador at
Paris, suggesting that Sir J. Crowe should be associated with himself and you in the
projwsed negotiations for a commercial arrangement between Canada and France.
Lord Knutsford would be glad to be favoured with your views on this subject.
EDWARD WIXGFIELD.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154 A. 1908
ROYAL COMMISSION
QUEBEC BRIDGE INQUIM
J
Pt E P O Pi T
ALSO
REPORT ON DESIGN OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
BY
C. C. SCHNEIDER
PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT
OTTAWA
PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST
EXCELLENT MAJESTY
19 0 8
[No. 154— Vol. 1—1908]
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154 A. 1908
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Page
Copy of Commission 5
Copy of Order in Council 6
Report of Royal Commission 7
Appendix No. 3 — History of Quebec Bridge and Railway Co. to August,
1903 12
Appendix No. 4 — Phoenix Bridge Co 33
Appendix No. 5 — Effect of financial limitations upon design of Bridge. ... 35
Appendix No. 6 — History of development of specifications 39
Appendix No. 7 — Organizations and staffs maintained by the different cor-
porations interested in the erection of the Bridge 48
Appendix No. 8 — History of development and plans in designing office. ... 56
Appendix No. 9 — Material, shopwork and inspection 64
Appendix No. 10 — Transportation and erection 68
Appendix No. 11 — Difiieulties during erection and events at the time of the
collapse 71
Appendix No. 12 — Description of the fallen structure 95
Appendix No. 13 — Examination of various full-sized column tests made in
America, and diagrams showing results 105
Appendix No. 14 — ^Comparison of stresses in main trusses witli stresses
authorized by specifications 109
Appendix No. 15 — Description of experimental researches 110
Appendix No. 16 — Discussion of the theory of built-up compression
members 122
Appendix No. 17 — Comparison of the design for chords of the Quebec
Bridge with other great cantilever bridges 138
Appendix No. 18 — Critical discussion of parts of the specifications 141
Appendix No. 19 — Miscellaneous 152
Report of Mr. C. C. Schneider 153
Api)endix A.: — Specifications for loads and strains for cantilever and sus-
pended spans 161
Appendix B. — Tabulated statement of strains, sectional areas and unit
strains 1)63
Appendix C. — Theory of columns 183
Appendix D. — Secondary strains in trusses of Quebec Bridge 201
154— lA
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154 A. 1908
COPT OF COMMISSION.
CANADA.
GREY.
[L.S.]
Edward the Se^-enth, hy the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain
and Ireland, and of the British Dominions heyond the Seas, King, Defender of
the Faith, Emperor of India,
To all to whom these presents shall come or whom the same may in anywise
concern, ,
Greeting :
Whereas, in and by an order of Our Governor General in Council, bearing date
the thirty-first day of August, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred
and seven, provision has been made for an investigation by Our Commissioners therein
and hereinafter named into the cause of the collapse of the Quebec Bridge, in the
course of construction over the St. Lawrence River, near the City of Quebec, in the
Province of Quebec, on the 29th August, 1907, and into all matters incidental- thereto.
Now know ye, that by and with the advice of Our Privy Council for Canada, We
do by these presents nominate, constitute and appoint Henry Holgate, of the City of
Montreal, in the Province of Quebec, Civil Engineer, John G. G. Kerry, of Campbell-
ford, in the Province of Ontario, Civil Engineer, and John Galbraith, of the City of
Toronto, in the Province of Ontario, Dean of the Faculty of Applied Science and
Engineering and Professor of Engineering in the University of Toronto, to be Our
Commissioners to conduct such inquiry.
To have, hold, exercise and enjoy the said office, place and trust unto the said
Henry Holgate, John G. G. Kerry and John Galbraith, together with the rights,
powers, privileges and emoluments unto the said office, place and trust, of right and
by law appertaining, during pleasure.
And we do hereby, under the authority of the Enquiries Act, Chapter 104, of the
Revised Statutes, 1906, confer upon Our said Commissioners the power of summon-
ing before them any witnesses, and of requiring them to give evidence on oath,
or on solemn affirmation, if they are persoms entitled to affirm in civil matters, and
orally or in writing, and to produce such documents and things as Our said Commis-
sioners shall deem requisite to the full investigation of the matters into which they
are hereby appointed to examine.
And We do hereby require and direct Our said Commissioners to report to Our
Governor General in Council the result of their investigation, together with the
evidence taken before them, and any opinion they may see fit to express thereon.
In testimony whereof. We have caused these Our letters to be made patent, and
the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed. Witness, Our Right Trusty and
Right Well-beloved Cousin the Right Honourable Sir Albert Henry George, Earl
Grey, Viscount Howiek, Baron Grey of Howick, in the County of Northumberland,
in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, and a Baronet; Knight Grand Cross of Our
Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, &c., &c., Governor
General and Commander in Chief of Our Dominion of Canada.
At Our Government House, in Our City of Ottawa, this thirty-first day of
August, in the year of Our Lord One thousand nine hundred and seven, and in the
Seventh year of Our Reign.
By Command. F. COLSON,
Acting Under-Secretary of State.
ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council^ appr'oved by the
Governor General on the Slst August, 1907.
On a memorandum, dated 30tli August, 1907, from the Acting Minister of Eail-
ways and Canals, representing that under date the 30th August, 1907, the Deputy
Minister and Chief Engineer of the Department of Railways and Canals advises that
the Quebec Bridge, so-called, in course of construction over the St. Lawrence River
near the City of Quebec, by the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company, collapsed on
the 29th August, 1907, causing loss of life and property.
That he states that it is "his opinion that a commission should issue to three
competent engineers empowering them to make an investigation, under oath, into
the cause of the collapse of such bridge, and into all matters incidental thereto, and
that this action should be taken immediately in view of the grave situation and the
circumstances of the case. He further suggests the names of Mr. Henry Holgate,
Civil Engineer, of Montreal, Mr. J. G. G. Kerry, Civil Engineer, of Campbellford,
Ont., and Professor John Galbraith, of the University of Toronto, as Commissioners
for this purpose, and advises that the remuneration paid to each Commissioner be at
the rate" of Fifty Dollars a day and all expenses in connection therewith.
The Minister, concurring in the view taken by the Deputy Minister and Chief
Engineer, recommends that authority be given, in pursuance of the Act of the Revised
Statutes of Canada, 1906, Chapter 104, Part 2, " An Act respecting public and
departmental inquiries," to appoint Messrs. Holgate, Kerry and Galbraith as Com-
missioners to investigate and report upon the said inatter, such investigation and
report — but without thereby limiting the scope of the inquiry — to embrace and
especially deal with the several questions suggested by the Chief Engineer.
The Minister further recommends that the salary to be paid to each of the said
Commissioners be at the rate of Fifty Dollars ($50.00) a day for the days of actual
service in connection with this inquiry, together with all reasonable living and
travelling expenses defrayed in connection therewith.
The Committee submit the same for approval.
F. K. BENNETTS,
Ass't Clerk of the Privy Council.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
EEPOKT TO ms EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR GENERAL IN
COUNCIL.
May it please Your Excellency:
The Royal Commission appointed by commission dated the thirty-first day of
August, A.D. 1907, to inquire into the cause of the collapse of the Quebec bridge,
begs to present its report as follows: —
The members of the commission were appointed on August 30, 1907, the day
following the accident, two of them proceeding to Quebec the same day, the third
member arriving there on September 4. The formal commission was received on
September 9. The taking of evidence at Quebec was commenced on the afternoon of
September 9, and continued until September 24. On September 25 the commission
went to Ottawa, and took evidence on September 26 and September 27. An adjourn-
ment was taken for the week ending October 5. On October 7 the commission
reassembled in Quebec, and engaged in further examination of the wrecked structure
and in study of the plans and documents. On October 14 the commission met in
New York, and commenced the first examination of Mr. Theodore Cooper, consulting
engineer of the Quebec Bridge Company, which continued until October 22. From
October 23 until November 22 the commission was engaged in the taking of evidence
and the collection of information in Phoenixville and Philadelphia. During this
period two members of the commission visited the works of the Central Iron and Steel
Company at Harrisburg, Pa., and other steel and bridge works which had no direct
connection with the manufactlire of the Quebec bridge were inspected. A second visit
was paid to Quebec from November 28 to December 3, and on December 3 one
member of the commission visited New York to further examine Mr. Cooper, return-
ing December 6. On January 14 two members of the commission went to Phoenix-
ville in order to make certain tests, returning on January 23. Since November 23,
with the exceptions above mentioned, the time of the commissioners has been spent
in Montreal in examination and discussion of evidence and in preparing this report.
We understand that the commission instructs us to determine to the best of our
ability the cause of the collapse of the Quebec bridge, and to thoroughly investigate
any matters appertaining thereto which might enable us to explain that cause. We
do not think that either the general design of the Quebec bridge, the methods of
financing the enterprise, the payments of money that have been made to or by the
company or in its interest, or the obligations that the company has undertaken under
various contracts and agreements have direct connection with the fall of the bridge.
In the course of our investigations we have secured a large amount of general informa-
tion on these and other matters not directly pertinent to the object of the inquiry,
some of which have been introduced into this report so that the history of the under-
taiking might be more readily followed. We have not considered the scope of our
inquiry limited concerning any matters which, in our judgment, related to the collapse
of the bridge.
Some of our various inquiries have yielded negative results, but these are dealt
with at some length in the report to make it clear that the subjects of these inquiries
have not been overlooked.
In carrying out our instructions we have made the following investigations : —
(o) A study of the history of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company, the
evidence at our disposal being copies of the various public acts concerning it, the
minutes of the directors' meetings, the reports of its officials, its annual reports, its
correspondence and copies of the agreements and contracts that it has made.
8 ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
(6) A perusal of the entire correspondence on file in the offices of the Quehec
Bridge and Railway Company, the Phcenix Bridge Company and Mr. Theodore
Cooper.
(c) A study of the working organizations of the Quebec Bridge and Railway
Company, the Phcenix Bridge Company and the Phoenix Iron Company. This
involved the hearing of a number of witnesses under oath, and the examination of
the various documents produced by these witnesses on direction of the commission and
filed as exhibits.
(d) A personal inspection of the furnaces and rolling mills by which most of the
metal that was used in the bridge was produced. The testing equipment at each of
the works was examined, and the file of the records of tests made by the inspectors
during production was gone over.
(e) A study of the methods used in the fabrication, transportation and erection
of the bridge. This consisted of inspection of the shops of the Phoenix Iron Company,
in which all the metal was fabricated, and an examination of the plans, records,
correspondence and photographs on file in the office of the Phoenix Bridge Company.
The fabricated material for the north half of the bridge was also inspected, and check
measurements were taken to determine certain questions of workmanship.
if) A study of the errors in workmanship detected by the several inspectors
during the progress of the work, the evidence available being the record books kept
by the shop inspectors for the Phoenix Bridge Company and for the Quebec Bridge
and Railway Company, the ' field corrections ' sent by the Phcenix Bridge Company's
resident engineer to the erection department of that company, and the weekly reports
made by the inspector of erection for the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company to
the consulting engineer.
(g) An inquiry into the history of the erection of the bridge. This inquiry was
made by obtaining direct evidence from witnesses under oath and by tracing out
through records and correspondence the details of all the major difficulties that had
occurred in the course of construction.
(h) An endeavour to obtain from eye-witnesses of the disaster all details concern-
ing it. Some twenty-five witnesses were examined for this purpose.
(i) An examination of the meteorological records for the day of the accident and
for some time previous. The records of the Observatory at Quebec and those kept
by the Phoenix Bridge Company's staff were available for this purpose.
(;') A personal examination of the fallen structures made at different times and
occupying several days, together with such surveys, check measurements and photo-
graphs as were considered necessary.
(k) A study of the methods adopted in the design of the bridge. This study
required an inspection of the drafting office of the Phoenix Bridge Company and an
examination of the mass of preliminary and final designs on file there. The sworn
statements of all the senior engineers formed an important part of the inquiry.
(0 A checking of the stress sheets prepared in the offices of the Phoenix Bridge
Company, by comparison with the results obtained by Mr. C. C. Schneider, consulting
engineer, who was employed subsequent to the disaster by the Department of Railways
and Canals to report to it upon the design of the bridge.
(m) A comparison of the organization and specifications used for the Quebec
bridge with those used for existing great cantilever bridges on this continent.
(n) A replotting of the records of tests made on full-sized compression members,
and a comparison of the design for the principal compression chords of the Quebec
bridge with similar designs for other great cantilevers. In this connection special
tests were made both by the Phoenix Bridge Company and by the commission, the
details of which are given.
(o) A study of the theory of compresaion memb rs; standard books, transactions
of technical societies and professional journals being consulted. The purpose of this
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 9
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
part of the inquiry was to determine how thoroughly the designers of the bridge
availed themselves of the professional knowledge at their disposal.
Your commissioners desire to acknowledge the hearty co-operation throughout
the inquiry of all officials of the companies directly concerned. Messrs. Cooper,
Szlapka, Deans and Hoare especially have, in our judgment, made every effort in their
power to assist us to establish the facts and have not attempted to spare themselves.
Some clearly contradictory statements are to be found in the evidence given in
the early days of the inquiry by certain witnesses on whom the burden of the disaster
fell. These statements may bo attributed to the nervous tension under which the
witnesses were labouring at the time.
Your commissioners find :
(a) The collapse of the Quebec bridge resulted from the failure of the lower
chords in the anchor arm near the main pier. The failure of these chords was due to
their defective design.
(h) The stresses that caused the failure were not due to abnormal weather
conditions or accident, but were such as might be expected in the regular course of
erection.
(c) The design of the chords that failed was made by Mr. P. L. Szlapka, the
designing engineer of the Phoenix Bridge Company.
id) This design was examined and officially approved by Mr. Theodore Cooper,
consulting engineer of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company.
(e) The failure cannot be attributed directly to any cause other than errors in
judgment on the part of these two engineers.
if) These errors of judgment cannot be attributed either to lack of common
professional knowledge, to neglect of duty, or to a desire to economize. The ability
of the two engineers was tried in one of the most difficult professional problems of
the day and proved to be insufficient for the task.
(g) We do not consider that the specifications for the work were satisfactory or
sufficient, the unit stresses in particular being higher than any established by past
practice. The specifications were accepted without protest by all interested.
(h) A grave error was made in assuming the dead load for the calculations at
too low a value and not afterwards revising this assumption. This error was of suffi-
cient magnitude to have required the condemnation of the bridge, even if the details
of the lower chords had been of sufficient strength, because, if the bridge had been
completed as designed, the actual stresses would have been considerably greater than
those permitted by the specifications. This erroneous assumption was made by Mr.
Szlapka and accepted by Mr. Cooper, and tended to hasten the disaster.
(i) We do not believe that the fall of the bridge could have been prevented by
any action that might have been taken after August 27, 1907. Any effort to brace or
take down the structure would have been impracticable owing to the manifest risk of
human life involved.
(j) The loss of life on August 29, 1907, might have been prevented by the exer-
cise of better judgment on the part of those in responsible charge of the work for the
Quebec Bridge and Railway Company and for the Phcenix Bridge Company.
(k) The failure on the part of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company to
appoint an experienced bridge engineer to the position of chief engineer was a
mistake. This resulted in a loose and inefficient supervision of all parts of the work
on the part of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company.
(I) The work done by the Phoenix Bridge Company in making the detail draw-
ings and in planning and carrying out the erection, and by the Phcenix Iron Company
in fabricating the material was good, and the steel used was of good quality. The
serious defects were fundamental errors in design.
(m) No one connected with the general designing fully appreciated the magni-
tude of the work nor the insufficiency of the data upon which they were depending.
10 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The special experimental studies and investigations that were required to confirm the
judgment of the designers were not made.
(n) The professional knowledge of the present day concerning the action of steel
columns under load is not sufficient to enable engineers to economically design such
structures as the Quebec bridge. A bridge of the adopted span that will unquestion-
ably be safe can be built, but in the present state of professional knowledge a
considerably larger amount of metal would have to be used than might be required if
our knowledge were more exact.
(o) The professional record of Mr. Cooper was such that his selection for the
authoritative position that he occupied was warranted, and the complete confidence
that was placed in his judgment by the officials of the Dominion government, the
Quebec Bridge and Eailway Company and the Phoenix Bridge Company was deserved.
Owing to the necessity of having the evidence taken in the United States sworn
to before a British consul, written questions were submitted to each witness examined
in the United States, and written answers were returned after an interval of some
days.
The commission is greatly indebted to the following gentlemen who have most
courteously furnished information: Mr. Charles Macdonald, formerly chief engineer
of the Union Bridge Company, contractors for the superstructure of the Memphis
cantilever bridge; Mr. H. W. Hodge, of Messrs. Boiler & Hodge, engineers of the
Monongahela cantilever bridge; Mr. Ralph Modjeski, of Messrs. Noble & Modjeski,
engineers of the Thebes cantilever bridge; Messrs. Ingersoll & Seaman, of the Depart-
ment of Bridges of the City of New York, and Messrs. Keynders & Kunz, of the
Pennsylvania Steel Company, respectively, engineers and contractors for the super-
structure of the Blackwell's Island cantilever bridge.
We are also indebted for professional advice and assistance to Professor Mans-
field Merriman, Professor W. C. Kernot, Professor W. H. Burr, Professor Edgar
Marburg, Professor H. M. MacKay, Professor G. P. Swain, and Messrs. W. R.
Webster, T. K. Thomson and E. W. Stern, consulting engineers.
The technical investigations have been by far the most arduous and difficult part
of our inquiry, and it is questionable whether they could have been brought to any
conclusion without the assistance that these men of expert training and experience
have so freely given.
We have set forth the facts which have convinced us of the soundness of our find-
ings in the accompanying appendices, each of which is an independent discussion
dealing at length with some one phase of our inquiry. The subjects of these appen-
dices are as follows : —
1. The evidence given before the commission of inquiry;
2. The exhibits filed with the commission of inquiry;
3. The history of the Quebec Bridge and Eailway Company up to the end of the
month of August, 1903;
4. The Phcenix Bridge Company;
5. The effect of financial limitations upon the design of the bridge and a discus-
sion of the evidence relating to this;
6. The history of the development of the specifications and a discussion of the
evidence relating to it;
7. A description of the organizations and staffs maintained by the different
corporations interested in the erection of the bridge;
8. A history of the development of the plans and of the methods followed in the
designing offices;
9. Material, shop work and inspection;
10. Transportation and erection;
11. A discussion of the difficulties that arose during erection and of the events
at the time of the collapse of the structure;
REPORT OF THE COifMISSIONERS 11
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
12. A description of the fallen structure;
13. An oxamination of the various full-sized column tests that have been made
in America, accompanied by diagrams showing the results of these tests;
14. A comparison of the stresses in the several members of the main trusses com-
puted from the bridge as finally designed, with the stresses authorized by the specifica-
tions. This comparison was made by Mr. C. C. Schneider, consulting engineer, and is
embodied in his report to the Department of Railways and Canals.
15. A description of the various experimental researches that have been made in
connection with the building of the Quebec bridge and during this inquiry ;
16. A discussion of the theory of built-up compression members;
17. A comparison of the design for certain chords of the Quebec bridge with those
for similar members of other great cantilever bridges illustrated with outline drawings
of the bridges and copies of the shop drawings of the chords;
18. A critical discussion of certain parts of the specifications;
19. Miscellaneous information.
All which is respectfully submitted.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY.
J. GALBRAITH.
Montreal, February 20, 190S.
(Note. — Appendices Nos. 1 and 2 will be found in another volume.)
12 EOTAL COMMISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX No. 3.
THE HISTORY OF THE QUEBEC BRIDGE' AND RAILWAY CO. UP
TO THE MONTH OF AUGUST, 1903.
The bridging of the St. Lawrence river at or near the city of Quebec has been a
subject of consideration for many years.
In 1852 ITr. Edward William Serrell, the engineer of the Lewiston and Queenston
suspension bridge, at the request of the City Council of Quebec, examined the-
locality, and in a very complete report recommended a site for a bridge which is
practically the same as that finally selected by the Quebec Bridge Company. At this
site it was proposed to erect a suspension bridge for both railway and highway traffic.
From time to time other engineers investigated this project, and in 1884 Mr.
A. L. Light, who had recently completed the construction of the Quebec, Montreal,
Ottawa and Occidental Railway, submitted a plan to the Quebec Board of Trade,
which was endorsed by Mr. James Brunlees, M. Inst. C.E.
None of these schemes, however, were seriously considered, there being no good
commercial reason at that time to warrant the carrying out of so great a project.
HISTORY OF LEGISLATION.
A company to be known as the Quebec Bridge Company was incorporated in'
1887 — 50-51 Vic. chap. 98 — with a capital of one million dollars and with power to
issue bonds; the provisional directors being Hon. J. G. Ross, Lt.-Col. Rhodes, R. R..
Dobell, Hon. Thomas McGreevy, Lt.-Col. J. B. Forsyth, Gaspard Lemoine, Eugene
Chinic, H. M. Price, Joseph Israel Tarte and Cyrille Duquet.
The company was given power to build and operate a railway bridge across the-
St. Lawrence river and to adapt it to the use of foot-passengers and vehicles. It
might also construct lines of railway to connect the bridge with existing or future-
railways on each side of the river. Work of construction was to be commenced within
three years, and to be completed within six years of the passing of the Act. The site
and all plans required the approval of the Governor in Council, and all tolls to bfr
charged by the company were subject to similar approval. This Act provided that
should a change in ownership take place, the property should continue to be operated"
under the provisions contained in it and in the Railway Act.
The Quebec Bridge Company was unable to carry out the work required by the-
AiCt of 1887, and in 1891 an Act of Parliament was passed (54-55 Vic, chap. 107),
■which revived and re-enacted the Act of Incorporation, but amended it to the extent
that the work should be commenced -within three years and completed within six-
years from the date of the passing of the Act, in July, 1891.
Again, the company was unable to carry out the project, and in 1897 an Act was
passed (60-61 Vic, chap. G9), reviving previous legislation and extending the date of
completion of the work to June, 1902.
The company again applied to parliament for extension of time, and by an Act
of 1900 (63-64 Vic, chap. 115) the time for completion was extended to June, 1905.
On October 9, 1900, an order in council was passed authorizing an agreement to
be entered into between the government and the Quebec Bridge Company, which
provided for the granting of a subsidy of one million dollars to the Quebec Bridge
Company, one-third of which sum was to be applicable to the substructure and
approaches, and two-thirds to the superstructure. In this agreement, the company
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 13
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
undertook to complete the bridge, all plans to be subject to the approval of the
Governor in Council. The work having already been commenced, the agreement
provided that it should be completed by January 1, 1903, failure in complying with
this condition to be followed by the forfeiture of all right or title to any part of the
subsidy. Certain specifications which are signed by E. A. Hoare, M. Inst., C.E., chief
engineer of the Quebec Bridge Company, and dated September 1, 1898, were made
part of the agreement which was completed on November 12, 1900 (Subsidy Agree-
ment 13988 Ex. 12).
The province of Quebec in March, 1900 (63 Vic., chap 2) granted a subsidy to
the Quebec Bridge Company to the amount of $250,000, upon condition that the city
of Quebec would grant a like amount; and on June 1, 1900, the city of Quebec voted
a subsidy of $300,000 to the same company, provided that the company lay its term-
inus within the limits of the city of Quebec.
By Act of Parliament in 1903 (3 Edward VII., chap. 177), the name of the
company was changed to the Quebec Bridge and Eailway Company, and the work was
declared to be for the general advantage of Canada. Further powers were granted,
authority was given to issue preference shares, and the bond issue was fixed at
$6,000,000, with the right to issue further bonds covering any property that might be
thereafter acquired.
The company was also empowered to enter into agreement with the government
of Canada in reference to a guarantee of the bonds of the company, and for granting
and conveying the bridge and property of the company to the government. The time
for completion was extended to July, 1910.
Pursuant to the power granted under the Act of 1903, the Quebec Bridge and
Eailway Company entered into an agreement with the government of Canada on
October 19, 1903, which agreement was confirmed by Act of Parliament on October
24, 1903 (3 Edward VII., chap. 54). By this Act the government undertook to guar-
antee the bonds of the company, the bond issue was fixed at $6,678,000, and the
company was authorized to redeem the outstanding stock on certain conditions. The
number of directors was increased to eleven, and the Governor in Council had the
right to appoint three of these. Nothing in this Act authorized the government,
without consent of parliament previously obtained, to exercise its right to take over
the undertaking.
The above is a brief summary of the legislation that has affected the company
from its inception to this date (February 20, 1908).
HISTORY OF PROGRESS.
At the annual general meeting of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company,
held April 20, 1897, the president, Lt.-Col. J. B. Forsyth, reported that subsequently
to 1888 Mr. E. A. Hoare had carefully surveyed the St. Lawrence river on both sides
from Quebec to the vicinity of the Chaudiere, and had reported that a bridge could be
built at three sites, viz. : —
1st, at Cape Diamond;
2nd, at Point-a-Pizeau; and
3rd, near the mouth of the Chaudiere river.
After consideration of ilr. Hoare's report by the board, the matter was referred
to Mr. Walter Shanly, who visited the different sites, and reported in 1889 in favour
of the third of those above mentioned. Mr. Collingwood Schreiber, the chief engineer
of the Department of Railways and Canals, also endorsed the Chaudiere site in his
report of February 28, 1891, which report was presented to parliament (Return No.
16, Session of 1891). At this meeting the Chaudiere site was finally adopted by the
company. The president, Lt.-Col. Forsyth, having resigned, his place was taken by
the Hon. S. N. Parent.
U ROJAL COifUISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
On June 16, 1S97, Mr. E. A. Hoare, the engineer of the Quebec Bridge Company,
wrote to the president of the Phoenix Bridge Company asking if any of their engineers
expected to attend the annual convention of the American Society of Civil Engineers,
which was to convene at Quebec on June 30 ; and if so, he asked that they call upon
him to discuss a project for building a bridge over the St. Lawrence river near Quebec.
Mr. John Sterling Deans, the chief engineer of the Phoenix Bridge Company, went to
Quebec and met Mr. Hoare and others connected with the Quebec Bridge Company.
Hon. R. R. Dobell, one of the directors of the company, took many of the visiting
engineers on an excursion to the site and explained the project to them. Mr. Theodore
Cooper was one of the party who visited Quebec at this time and then first learned of
the proposed work, and on July 7, 1897, Mr. Deans, of the Phoenix Bridge Company,
wrote to Mr. Hoare stating that Mr. Cooper would be glad to give the Quebec Bridge
Company the benefit of his extended experience. As stated by Mr. Deans, Mr. Hoare
promised to send him a profile of the river crossing at the proposed site, and other
general information necessary for the purpose of preparing a tender on the work should
his company be asked to make one. This Mr. Hoare did, and the matter was at once
taken up by the Phoenix Bridge Company, and on November 30, 1897, they completed
their first preliminary general plan for the bridge. This plan was altered, and on
December 7, 1S97, a new plan was completed, and was sent to Mr. Hoare.
The Quebec Bridge Company, early in 1898, applied to the Railway Committee of
the Privy Council for approval of the plans and proposed site of the bridge, which
application was filed in the department as No. 7349. The plan that accompanied this
application is dated January 13, 1898, and is signed by Messrs. S. N. Parent, Ulric
Barthe and E. A. Hoare, and as to the superstructurfl iti is i<tentical with the plan,
made by the Phoenix Bridge Company, and dated December 7, 1897.
The site of the bridge and the positions of the piers and abutments were approved
as shown on the plans. The bridge had a clear width of span over the channel of
1,200 feet, and a clear height of 150 feet from extreme high water, the clear span
between pier centres being 1,600 feet. The plans of all details were made subjecrt to
the approval of the chief engineer of the Department of Railways and Canals before
work could be commenced, and also subject to the approval of the Governor in
Council upon the joint report of the Minister of Railways and Canals and the Minister
of Public Works. The order in council conveying this approval was signed May 16,
1898 (Ex. 2).
On July 2, 1898, the board of the Quebec Bridge Company passed a resolution
instructing Mr. E. A. Hoare, their chief engineer, to put himself in communication
with ^[r. Schreiber, and the secretary was instructed to write to the Right Honourable
Sir Wilfrid Laurier, asking him to give instructions to the chief engineer of the
Department of Railways and Canals to put his bridge engineer in communication
with Mr. Hoare, so that suitable specifications for the proposed bridge might be
prepared, to be used when calling for tenders (Ex. 4). These instructions were carried
Out, and Mr. Hoare conferred with Mr. R. C. Douglas, the bridge engineer of the
department, and the specifications were prepared. On August 26, 1898, these general
specifications were submitted to Mr. Schreiber and were approved by him as quite
satisfactory on August 31, 1898 (E.x. 5).
The specifications thus approved by the Department of Railways and Canals were
printed by the Quebec Bridge Company under date of September 1, 1898, and are
practically the same as those attached to the subsidy agreement of November 12, 1900;
they include specifications for both the substructure and the superstructure.
On September 6, 1898, the Quebec Bridge Company instructed their secretary
to issue circulars inviting tenders ; the date for receiving the same was madp January
1, 1899, but subsequently this was changed to March 1, 1899.
In accordance with these instructions, the secretary issued a circular (Ex. 6)
sending with each copy a section of the river showing the clearances required, and
also specifications for a cantilever bridge; if any tenderers proposed a suspension
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 15
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
bridge they were to furnish complete specifications. A form of tender was sent to
each party, which called for lump sum prices both for substructure and superstructure.
In response to this circular, tenders were received from the Keystone Bridge
Company, of Pittsburg, for a cantilever bridge; from the Dominion Bridge Company,
of Montreal, for both a cantilever and a suspension bridge; from the Phoenix Bridge
Company, of Phwnixville, for both a cantilever and a suspension bridge; from the
Union Bridge Company, of New York, for a suspension bridge, and from the New
Jersey Steel Company, of Trenton, for a cantilever bridge. Tenders for substructure
were received from Wra. Davis & Sons, of Cardinal, Ont., and from the Engineering
Contract Company, of New York. The New Jersey Steel Company subsequently
withdrew their tender.
At this date, March, 1899, the Quebec Bridge Company were not in a position
financially to let a contract for any portion of the proposed structure, but the board
considered that the prospects of obtaining funds were sufficiently promising to
warrant the calling for tenders.
The construction of this bridge, being a task of unpredecented magnitude, the
board, on February 23, discussed the appointment of a consulting engineer, and the
names of six prominent engineers were considered, with the result that the secretary
was instructed to write to Theodore Cooper and to ask him if he would consent to
act. This instruction was carried out on the same day.
On March 23, 1899, Hon. S. N. Parent, Mr. Hoare and Mr. Barthe met Mr.
Cooper in New York, and it was arranged that Mr. Cooper would examine and report
upon the plans and tenders received for a certain fee. This agreement was confirmed
by interchange of letters.
All plans and tenders were accordingly sent to Mr. Cooper.
During the period when these plans and tenders were in the hands of Mr. Cooper,
the Phcenix Bridge Company kept in close touch with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Hoare, and
reference may be made to Mr. Deans' letters of April 14 and April 19, 1899, addressed
to Mr. Hoare.
The correspondence of the officials of the Phoenix Bridge Company at this stage
indicates a strong desire to obtain a favourable report from Mr. Cooper as a prelim-
inary to securing the contract for the work at a later date, and the letters from the
officials of the Quebec Bridge Company to the Phoenix Bridge Company indicate a
desire to assist it in this direction.
The apparent reason for this state of affairs is that the Phoenix Bridge Company
were, as far as we can learn, the only tenderers who felt and expressed confidence in
the Quebec bridge project, and had prepared all of the preliminary plans for it. The
Quebec Bridge Company therefore inclined more favourably towards them, and the
relations were mutually friendly.
As to either party influencing Mr. Cooper or causing him to modify his ideas so
as to favour any tender, such a suggestion is, in our opinion, quite out of the ques-
tion, and we believe that Mr. Cooper made his decisions and gave his opinions with
absolute honesty.
On June 23, 1899, Mr. Cooper reported to the Quebec Bridge Company upon the
tender submitted (Exhibit 9), the following being an extract from his report: —
' From the facts and consideration as stated above, I find the cantilever super-
structure plan of the Phoenix Bridge Company an exceedingly creditable plan from
the point of view of its general proportions, outlines and its constructive features.
' I also find that it is designed in accordance with your specifications.
' The tender accompanying this plan is the lowest in price, and is the most favour-
able as to the prospective duties upon the materials to be used in its construction.
' I therefore hereby conclude and report that the cantilever superstructure plan
of the Phoenix Bridge Company is the " best and cheapest " plan and proposal sub-
mitted to me for examination and report.
16 ROYAL COJIillSSIOX ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
' I likewise report that the general plan and proposals for the substructure made
by the Engineering Contract Company and by Messrs. Davis & Sons are both satis-
factory and at favourable terms.'
Mr. Cooper also advised that further investigation be made by boring and by
sinking trial shafts to determine the best position for the piers, and suggested that,
as the surveys that had been made up to date -were not sufficient, in any contract that
might be made, there should be provision for changing the length of spans within
reasonable limits, for modifying the carrying capacity of the structure and for increas-
ing or decreasing the construction quantities.
Mr. Cooper's report of June 23, 1899, was received, and was laid before the board
of the Quebec Bridge Company on June 29, when it was resolved: —
' That a copy of Mr. Cooper's report, with superstructure plan of the Phoenix
Bridge Company, and the Keystone, and Wm. Davis & Sons' substructure plan be
sent immediately to the Eight Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier.'
No positive action was taken as to the tenders, and no one of these was formally
accepted then or at a later date.
The full report of Mr. Cooper is appended (Exhibit 9), and it will be observed
that he believed that the cantilever designs were the most favourable owing to their
lower cost, and these designs were therefore more critically examined than were those
of suspension bridges. The comparison of tenders was narrowed down by a process
of elimination, to two cantilever designs, those of the Keystone Bridge Company and
of the Phoenix Bridge Company, both of which were ' acceptable designs.' After
making due allowance for cost of foundations so as to put the cost of superstructure
on an even basis, Mr. Cooper found that the tender of the Keystone Bridge Company
for superstructure was $2,462,119, and that of the Phwnix Bridge Company was
$2,438,612, making a difiereuce in favour of the Phoenix Bridge Company's tender of
$23,507; if duty were charged, this amount would be further increased by $97,768,
owing to the greater weight of steel in the Keystone design.
The estimated weight of steel as iper tenders was : —
Keystone Bridge Company, in gross tons 27,400
Phoenix Bridge Company, in gross tons 22,956
Difference in favour of latter, gross tons 4,444
The tenders show the average price of steel per gross ton as follows, all erected
and complete: —
Phoenix Bridge Company $103 94
Keystone Bridge Company 90 00
The tenders were lump sum prices for a completed structure, provided that the
work was executed in accordance with the plans submitted and the unit prices of steel
per ton were given in the tenders solely as a basis for computing progress estimates.
In view, however, of the fact that at a subsequent date a contract was made with
the Phoenix Bridge Company at a price per pound and not on a lump sum basis, it
should be noted that, having the above figures before them, the Quebec Bridge Com-
pany did not ask for new tenders for the steel work on a pound or ton basis, and also
that the weight of the structure designed for the longer span overran the originally
estimated weight by nearly 45 per cent.
Negotiations were commenced with the Phoenix Bridge Company, but that
company would not enter into a contract on account of the financial conditions of the
Quebec Bridge Company.
Mr. Deans expressed himself as having full confidence in the scheme as a business
undertaking, and made efforts to assist the Quebec Bridge Company by endeavouring
to interest prominent American bankers in the project; he was unsuccessful, and all
the financial firms declined to invest in the securities of the Quebec Bridge Company
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 17
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
owing to the fact that the prohable immediate returns would not warrant them in
taking the matter up.
At this time, June, 1S99, the Quebec Bridge Company had only a stock subscrip-
tion of $50,352. (i'J, of which $26,684.74 had already been expended for surveys and
other expenses.
In his report of June 23, 1899, Mr. Cooper advised that more information be
obtained with regard to the river-bed, so that the cost both of foundations and of
superstructure might be closely estimated before the length of the main span was
finally settled, and we direct your attention to all the evidence on this point, which
clearly shows that at the time of calling for tenders there was not sufficient information
to justify the action of the Quebec Bridge Company in fixing the positions of the
main piers. On Mr. Cooper's advice further borings and examinations were made
under the supervision of Mr. Hoare. Dr. Ami, of the Dominion Geological Survey
made a report on these borings, which is appended.
The information thus obtained was transmitted to Mr. Cooper on January 14,
and after studying it, he reported to Hon. S. N. Parent, on May 1, 1900 (Ex. 11)
recommending a change of the main span from 1,600 feet to 1,800 feet, for the
following reasons : —
' First : The construction of the larger and deeper piers of the 1,600 ft. span will
require at least one more year than those for the 1,800 foot span.
' Second : The contingencies of the construction of the deeper piers in the deeper
waters, where they might possibly be subject in their incomplete condition to the
heavy ice floes of the main channel, would be far greater than for the piers further
in shore.
' Third : The effect upon any future financing, by reducing the time of construc-
tion and minimizing the real and imaginary contingencies.'
Mr. Cooper estimated that the additional cost of the changes he advised would be
$200,000 provided that modifications were made in the specifications, which, in his
opinion, were both desirable and justifiable, and would in no manner reduce the carry-
ing capacity of the structure or render it incapable of fully performing all its duties
satisfactorily. (Ex. 11.)
Previously to the receipt of Mr. Cooiier's second report, the board, on August 14,
1899, requested a meeting with the Phoenix Bridge Company's representative, and,
on August 21, Mr. Deans met the board and discussed the situation then existing.
On the following day the board decided to divide the work between the Phoenix _Bridge
Company and Mr. M. P. Davis. On August 23, the Hon. S. N. Parent wrote Mx.
Deans stating that the Quebec Bridge Company was ready to enter into a contract
with the Phoenix Bridge Comjiany, upnn certain conditions, which included the
modification of the specifications, and the terms of payment. The Phoenix Bridge
Company were to accept their share of the $1,500,000 of subsidies or their equivalent
and the difference in bonds. Under the same date Mr. Deans wrote to the Hon. S. N.
Parent extending the privilege of ordering the work in whole or in part at the unit
prices named in the tender of March 1. 1899, for 'say one or two years,' on the
understanding that the prices would be modified in accordance with the variations in
the base price of metal and would be fixed by agreement between the engineers of the
two companies at the date of the final order for each part of the bridge. In so far as
the Phoenix Bridge Company was concerned, nothing came of these negotiations, but
an agreement for the construction of the substructure was made at a later date with
Mr. M. P. Davis somewhat on these lines.
Matters made no further progress \intil the following spring when, at a meeting
of the board on April 5, 1900, Hon. Mr. Parent stated that before concluding the
contract for the masonry there were questions to be settled with ' the prospective
superstructure contractor, the Phoenix Bridge Company.' Messrs. Audette, Breaky
and Lemoine were then delegated to meet Mr. M. P. Davis about his contract and
154— vol. i— 2
18 SOJAL COMillStilOy 0-Y COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
conditions of payment, and Messrs. Parent. Audette and Price were selected to repre-
sent the company at a meeting with the Phcenix Bridge Company, which was subse-
quently held at 3i[r. Cooper's office in Xew York.
The arrangements with Mr. M. P. Davis were concluded in the month of April,
although the contract itself was not executed until June 19, 1900, and at the meeting
in iSTew York, just mentioned, which was held on April 12, 1900, an agreement was
made and signed by the Hon. S. X. Parent, president of the Quebec Bridge Company,
and Mr. John Sterling Deans, chief engineer of the Phcenix Bridge Company, whereby
the Quebec Bridge Company awarded the contract for the construction of the super-
structure and steel anchorages of the bridge to the Phcenix Bridge Company upon
the cash prices tendered on March 1, 1899, subject to the modifications suggested by
Mr. Deans in his letter to the Hon. S. X. Parent under date of August 23, 1899, the
superstructure and steel anchorages to be ordered within three years from date. The
Phcenix Bridge Company agreed to deliver the steel work for the anchorages within
four months after the approval of detailed plans, the price to be fixed at the date of
ordering the metal. This was done on June 15, and the price, which was 4:516 cents
per pound, was fixed in accordance with the terms of Mr. Deans' letter of August 23,
1899, by a board consisting of Messrs. Deans, Cooper and Hoare.
The Phcenix Bridge Company also agreed to complete all general and detail iilans
for the entire superstructure with all pussible speed.
This agreement was approved by the Quebec Company's board on April 21, 1900.
It appears, therefore, that the contract was awarded for the superstructure before
Mr. Cooper bad reported upon tlie necessary change in span, and that the agreement
of April 12 was really not in accordance with the tender of March 1, 1899, in that
this tender contemplated a lump sum price for the whole work, and not a price per
pound; the details of this matter will be referred to further on.
Mr. Cooper's report (Exhibit 11) of May 1, 1900, was submitted to the board on
May 5, and was adopted. At the same meeting they appointed Mr. Theodore Cooper
consulting engineer to the company in accordance with terms and conditions con-
tained in the minutes of the board of March 23, 1899. These terms and conditions,
however, we note, only applied to examining and reporting iipon certain plans
submitted to Mr. Cooper, and the appointment then made was for a specific purpose
and was not in the nature of a permanent appointment as consulting engineer.
Mr. Cooper objected at a later date to the arrangement of the terms of remunera-
tion, and wrote to Mr. Hoare on July 20, 1901. suggesting as a basis of adjustment,
that his services as consulting engineer from April 11, 1900, to the completion of the
metal superstructure, be placed at a lump s\im of $22,500, with an additional retain-
ing fee of $2,500 for each year exceeding three years that his services were required,
yearly payments to be not less than $3,750. This letter was submitted to the board,
and on August 7, 1901, was approved. The actual payments made to Mr. Cooper are
given in Exhibit 114.
At the board mc^ctinp of !May 5, 1900, the following resolution was passed: —
' That the rc^port of Theodore Cooper, consulting engineer, in date of iftiyt 1
instant, recoiiiuiending an 1.800 foot span instead of 1,600 feet, be adopted, and that
the Quebec Bridge Company's engineers give instructions to the Ph<rnix Bridge
Company, contractors for the superstructure, to prepare plans accordingly without
delay, and also that the contractors for substructure, William Davis & Sons, be
informed of such modifications, and that the contract for substructure work will be
modified accordingly.'
The Phcenix Bridge Company, by letters of May 9 and 16, 1900, accepted the
modifications in the plans of the bridge advised by ^fr. Cooper.
The memorandum already referred to, concerning prices (Ex. 14). dated New
York, June 15. and signed by Messrs. Cooper, Hoare and Deans, was ratified by the
board on July 5, 1900, and the president advised the appointment of an inspector at
the rolling mills and machine shop, which was authorized.
REPORT nr THE COHMI.'^SIOyERS 19
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
On Dpcember ID, 1900. a second pontract was entered into between the Quebec
Bridge Company and the Phopnix Bridge Company covering the erection of the
appro;ich spans on each side of the river, the unit price being at 4 'Hi cents per
pound erected and painted complete. (Exhibits 13 and 14.) On January 17, 1901. the
board approved the above agreement. The report of the directors presented at the
annual meeting of the company held on September 4, 1900, fully sets out what had
been done up to that time (Ex. 19).
On October 2, 1900. the ' corner stone ' of the Quebec bridge was laid, and the
report of the directors at the annual meeting held September 3, 1901, is interesting in
that it contains reports of progress on the substructure from Messrs. Cooper and
Hoare. Mr. Cooper approves the progress of the work and adds that ' During the past
year special studies have also been made of the main span, to improve and better the
same in advance of the preparation of the final plans.' At that time the north anchor
pier was about complete, the ground was being prepared for the north abutment and
the north main pier was well under way.
Good progress on the work under contract, viz. : the substructure, the anchorages
and the two approach spans was made during the following year, and at the annual
meeting of the company held September 2, 1902, ilr. Hoare reported that the sub-
structure on north ^hore was completed, that the abutment on south shore would be
finished in a month, and that the south anchor pier was all finished except two courses
of masonry. He also reported that the main pier on south shore was in progress, and
that it had been found that a greater depth had to be reached to get a satisfactory
foundation than was at first expected, and that in consequence it would teke some
time to comp'ete this pier. The north approach span was in course of erection, and
the material for the south approach span had been deli\:ered.
On October 13, 1902, Mr. Cooper reported on the south main pier, and on
February 3, 1903, he again reported. Stating that the experience of the last two
summers amply justified the change in the length of the main span from 1,600 to
1,800 feet.
Xegotiations for the construction of the main span which, in the meantime, had
not proceeded actively were now resumed with the Pha?iiix Bridge Company, and Mr.
Deans wired the Hon. S. N. Parent, on May 11. 1903, that he would be in Quebec on
the loth and could go to Ottawa on the next day or on any other convenient day, as
had been requested.
This visit to Ottawa was made on account of l^islation proposed to be submitted
to parliament in relation to the Quebec Bridge Company and the financial support to
be given to it by the government; and the Phoenix Bridge Company desired to have
the enactment of this legislation assured, before entering into any further contract
with the Quebec Bridge Company.
The prospects for favourable legislation being satisfactory, articles of agreement
were prepared and signed by the Quebec Bridge Company and by the Phcenix Bridge
Company, on June 19, 1903 (Ex. 16), and were approved by the board of directors of
the Quebec Bridge Company on the same day.
In transmitting the executed agreement, Mr. David Reeves, the president of the
Phcenix Bridge Company, attached a letter of same date in which he states that the
agrcexent is executed by his company upon the understanding that it shall not become
operative until the legislation proposed shall have been enacted and financial arrange-
ments insuring payments of estimates shall have been made to the satisfaction of his
company. He agreed to go on with strain sheets and drawings as soon as the revised
specifications with the formal approval of the government engineers were furnished
to his company. These conditions were accepted by the Quebec Bridge Company.
Tn his suplementary report of June 23, 1899, Mr. Cooper advises : —
' It might also be desirable to ask the successful competitor to state what reduc-
tions, if any. could be made in the tender by certain modifications of the specifications.'
1.54— vol. i— 2i
20 ROYAL COJ/J//.SN/O.Y O.V COLLAPSE OF Ql'EBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
This indicates that changes in the Quebec Bridge Company's specifications were in
Mr. Cooper's mind at that early date, and also that he considered the tender as a lump
sum tender, and not otherwise.
On May 1, 1900 (subsequent to the awarding of the contract), Mr. Cooper
suggested to Mr. Parent, in a letter, that he ' be instructed to make such modifications
in the accepted competitive plan when adapted to the new lengths, as may tend to
reduce the cost without reducing the carrying capacity or the stability of the structure.'
On June 2, 1903, Mr. Cooper transmitted certain amendments to the specifications
attached to the subsidy contract of November 12, 1900, and gave his reasons for the
proposed changes; as under section 2 of this agreement, any amendments of plans and
specifications had to be approved by the Governor in Council, these amendments were
submitted to Mr. Schreiber for examination. Mr. Schreiber, the chief engineer of the
Department of Railways and Canals, examined the amendecf specifications, and com-
municated with the Minister of Railways and Canals on July 9, 1903. The Minister
reported to council on July 16, 1903, and on Jidy 21 an order in council was passed,
embodying Mr. Schreiber's recommendations (Ex. 17). In his report Mr. Schreiber
refers to discussions between himself and Mr. Cooper, the consulting engineer of the
Quebec Bridge Company, involving certain modifications of the specification attached
to the subsidy contract; he expresses his high regard for Mr. Cooper's professional
standing, that gentleman being a man of repute and reliability. He adds : ' His
modifications may, therefore, reasonably be considered to be in the best interests of the
work.' Mr. Schreiber suggests that ' the department be authorized to employ a com-
petent bridge engineer to examine from time to time the detailed drawings of each
part of the bridge as prepared, and to approve of or correct them as to him may seem
necessary, submitting them for final acceptance to the chief engineer of the Depart-
ment of Railways and Canals.'
When a copy of the above order in council reached Mr. Cooper, he strenuously
objected to the appointment of an engineer as suggested by Mr. Schreiber, saying:
' This puts me in the position of a subordinate, which I cannot accept.' Mr. Cooper,
at the same time wrote to Mr. Schreiber : ' I do not see how such an engineer could
facilitat-e the progress of the work or allow me to take any responsible steps indepen-
dently of his consent.' Mr. Cooper then went to Ottawa to see Mr. Schreiber, and
discussed the situation with him. In consequence Mr. Schreiber made a further
recommendation, and an order in council was passed August 15, 1903 (Ex. IS) which
directed that, provided the efliciency of the structure be fully maintained up to that
defined in the original specifications attached to the company's contract (Ex. 12),
the new loadings proposed by the Quebec Bridge Company's consulting engineer be
accepted, &c.; and that all plans be submitted to the chief engineer, and until his
approval has been given, not to be adopted for work. This order modified the ordejf
in council of July 21, 1903.
The amendments to the specifications and Mr. Cooper's letter relating thereto are
attached to the order in council and are dated June 2, 1903.
Upon ilr. Cooper receiving a copy of the second order in council he states, in a
letter of August 21, to Mr. lloare: 'I think under fair and broad-minded interpreta-
tion, this will allow us to go on and get the best bridge we can, without putting metal
where it will be more harm than good.'
This arrangement left the matter of the specifications entirely in the hands of Mr.
Cooper, subject only to the approval of the government authorities.
Mr. Cooper, in his evidence, says: 'I assvinio the full responsibility for the
change in the specifications and for the selected unit stresses.' He interpreted the
authority given to him as being complete, and the work was carried out using his
amendments of the specifications.
Up to the date of the passing of the Guarantee Act, of October, 1903, the Plurnix
Bridge Company held to the position expressed in Mr. Reeves' letter of June 19, which
REPORT OF THE COHyiSSIONERS 21
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
was attached to the contract of the same date with the Quebec Bridge Company. It
was not until March 15. 1904, that Mr. Reeves states (Ex. 113E), that they are
proceeding with the work vigorously, this letter being in reply to one from Mr. Parent
under date of February 22, 1904 (Ex. 113A). In this correspondence Mr. Parent
advi.scd Mr. Reeves of the satisfactory financial condition of his company, and the
Phoenix Bridge Company felt confident in proceeding with the actual work, knowing,
as it did, that payment was certain. The undertaking had now entered into its final
stage.
Mr. Seheidl in his evidence (see evidence) refers to certain preliminary work on
plans having been done in January, February and March, 1902. A period of inac-
tivity followed, as Mr. Seheidl further states that after the receipt of the revised
specifications ' preliminary work ' showing practically final results, commenced in
July, 1903.
Prior to the date of the contract between the Quebec Bridge Company and the
Phoenix Bridge Company. June 19, 1903, the Phcenix Iron Company, who manufac-
ture all the bridge work for the Phoenix Bridge Company, were not equipped to under-
take the work. In ajiticipation of having to do the work they, in the fall of 1902,
made additions to their main bridge .shop and other improvements in their works.
In 1903 they added some heavy machinery to their shops and otherwise improved their
works, so as to enable them to manufacture the Quebec bridge for the Phcenix Bridge
Company; those were general improvements to their property. Subsequent to June
19, 1903, Mr. Xorris, the manager of the works, was instructed to obtain whatever
machinery and tools were needed.
HISTORY OF CONTRACTS.
The commission has examined the various contracts and agreements made between
the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company and the Phoenix Bridge Company, but finds
nothing in them that has direct connection with the cause of the disaster. We give,
therefore, simply an historical statement concerning these agreements, but desire to
draw attention to the fact that the agreement of April 12, 1900, the agreement of
December 19. 1900 (Exhibit 13). and the contract of June 19. 1903 (E.xhibit 16),
which is an amplification of the first agreement, are, under existing circumstances, of
great importance. We recognize that we are not called upon to discuss these agree-
ments from a legal standpoint.
The Phoenix Bridge Company was requested to tender in September, 1898, for
the construction of the Quebec bridge (Ex. 6).
According to Mr. Deans (Deans to Hoare, April 14, 1899, Ex. 75-D), there was
an understanding at the time that the contract would be awarded to the lowest
tenderer.
The following is the letter referred to: —
April 14, 1899.
(Personal and private).
Mr. E. A. HoARE,
Chief Engineer, Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Quebec.
Dear Mr. Hoare, — Mr. Szlapka and I were with Cooper the greater part of yester-
day, and you will be glad to learn there was not a single vital or important criticism
or mistake found in our plans. All the slight differences, such as dead load, anchor
arms, reverse stresses, in one or two members, thickness of some detail plates, &c.,
were all thoroughly discussed and satisfactorily settled* and not a single one would
affect in any way out price or our proposition. It was especially gratifying for us to
learn this.
22 SOTAL COMlIISSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. Cooper, however, somewhat upset me, by making the following remark,
which of course I understood was entirely personal and without any full knowledge of
the situation. He said: 'Well, Deans, I believe that all of the bids will probably
overrun the amount which the Quebec Bridge Company can raise, and that the result
will be as is usually the case, that all of the bids will be thrown out and a new tender
asked on revised specifications and plans.'
I told Mr. Cooper that while this might be the tisual procedure, that in the
present case it was distinctly understood that whoever was the lowest bidder under
the present specifications and plans would be awarded the work, and if any modifica-
tions ivere made their hid would he altered accordingly, as this could readily be done
through a conference with the Bridge Company's engineers and ourselves; as we
could undoubtedly build as cheap a structure as any other company, and that unless
this plan was carried out as understood and agreed upon, the present bidders would
be placed in a very unfair position after the expenditure of great time and expense.
I finally succeeded in convincing Mr. Cooper that this was the only fair method,
but I think it will take the greatest care on your part^ to see that his report is not
worded in such a way as to give the directors an opportunity of following this sugges-
tion. Mr. Cooper undoubtedly desires to be perfectly fair, but not having been through
this whole matter like ourselves, does not fully understand the situation. I trust,
therefore, that you will give his report the most careful scrutiny, and get it in the
right shape before it is submitted, as far as this suggestion is concerned. It would
simply be just what our competitors, and particularly the Dominion Bridge Company,
would like, or the Union Bridge Company, in fact, and I shall be much interested to
hear from you on this point.
You hsve not advised me to whom I shall send the revised price; including
delivery of the material from Quebec and Levis to sit€.
Mr. Lindenthal and I have an appointment with Mr. Cooper next Tuesday to
discuss the suspension plan.
Kindly advise me when you will desire the revised propositions of the suspension
design.
I remain.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS.
On March 1, 1899, the Phcenix Bridge Company handed in its tender, making a
lump sum bid as requested. The wording of the tender which was drawn up by the
Quebec Bridge Company is as follows: —
' The whole in accordance with sections and specifications shown for substructure
and superstructure and such other plans submitted with this tender, which may be
adopted by the Bridge Company ; for tlie total sums of money herein stated, &c.'
Mr. Deans wrote in the letter acconip.anying the tender, as follows: —
' It might be possible, if found necessary or desirable, to make modifications in
the requirements which could reduce the cost without ninterially affecting the
efficiency of the structure, and at the proper time we would be glad to discuss this
question with your engineers.'
All tenders and phms wore handed over to Mr. Cooper for examination and report,
after the agreement Ix^tween that gentleman and the officers of the Quebec Bridge
Corapnny had been made on March 2:1. 1S99 (Ex. 112).
On May 8, 1S99, and again on May 9. "Mr. Deans, at the request of Mr. Iloare,
supplemented the Pbirnix Bridge Company's bid by letters to ifr. Cooper.
On June 23, 1S99. Mr. Cooper reported in favour of the Phoenix Bridge Company's
plan and tender (Ex. 9). Tenders were open for aceeptnnce until September 1. 1S90.
On August 22, 1899, the directors of the Quebec Bridge Company passed a
resolution awarding the contract for the substructure to Mr. Wm. Davis & Sons, and
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 23
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
that for the superstructure to the Phnpnix Bridge Company on condition that the
contriietors accept subsidies and securities in payment.
The hinip sum price.s are mentioned in the resolution, but with this qualifying
clause ' the whole subject to the modifications in the specifications, either decreasing
or increasing, or any other made by the company's engineer in the size, deptks and
locations of the piers and their caissons, at schedule prices in tender submitted.'
Apparently this clause changed the contract from a lump sum basis to a unit price
basis, as the company's engineer made many modifications. These modifications could
not have been avoided and arose mainly from the insufficiency of the plans and the
preliminary work done by the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company.
The following letters written at this time made clear the understanding between
the two companies and outline an arrangement for settling unit prices which was
afterwards adopted for all the Phoenix Bridge Company's contracts : —
QcEBEC, August 22, 1899.
Mr. E. A. HoARE,
Chief Eng'r, the Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Canada.
Dear Sir. — At the request of the president of the Quebec Bridge Company I hand
you in trust to-day the prices we used for plain structural material in our proposal
of March 1, '99, for the construction of the Quebec bridge. These figures will fix the
basis of comparison when work is ordered ahead as arranged in letters passed between
the Quebec Bridge Company and the Phoenix Bridge Company to-day. You will
notice these prices are higher than figures ruling on March 1, '99, — lower than those
ruling to-day. Plates and shapes 1'80 c. per pound.
Steel castings in rough 3 -50 c. per pound.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEAXS,
Chief Engineer.
Quebec, August 23, 1899.
Mr. E. A. HoARE,
Chief Engineer, Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Quebec.
Dear Sir, — Referring to the figures handed you to-day, you are at liberty to show
same to the Hon, S. N. Parent, president of the Bridge Company, for his personal
information, I feel certain a knowledge of these figures will not be allowed to go
further, or be used against our interests, otherwise I would not be justified in giving
out same.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLTNO DEANS.
Chief Engineer.
Quebec, August 23, 1899.
Mr, John Sterling Deans,
Chief Engineer, Phoenix Bridge Company.
Dear Sir, — Referring to yours of this day, I beg to state that this company is
ready to enter into a contract with your company for the superstructure of our
proposed bridge, subject to the modifications in the specifications either decreasing
or increasing, or any other that may have to be made in size, depths and locations of
the piers and their caissons; provided you accept in payment your share of the
amount of $1 ..500.000 in subsidies or their equivalent, and the difference in bonds
24 ROTAL COilillSSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
given in trust as collateral security, the value and interest on same, at their redemp-
tion on conditions to be agreed upon, but at any rate the company will decide before
the bridge is open for traffic to redeem the said bonds at face value or surrender them
to the contractors; this company binding themselves to transfer you your propor-
tionate share of any further subsidies or guarantees of interest that they may receive
towards the construction of the said bridge. We will furnish by an early mail a
statement showing the position of the company, its available subsidies and prospects
as to resources and earning powers. If your company accepts the above conditions,
we on the other hand will accept the condition stated in your letter of this day, that
we may order the work from you at any time within two years, providing at the time
the work is ordered to proceed either party to the contract may request the prices for
plain structural metal revised to agree with the ruling price of metal at that time,
and provided also that you give us to-day the price of your metal on which you have
based your tender. This option is open for fifteen days from this date.
Yours truly,
S. N. PaKENT,
Pres., Q. B. Co.
Quebec, Can., August 23, 1899.
Hon. S. X. Parent,
President, the Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Canada.
Dear Sm,— In our letter of March 1, 1899, handing you our proposal for the
construction of the Quebec bridge, we stated, ' proposal to be accepted and work
ordered to proceed on or before July 1, 1899'; later on the time was extended to
September 1, 1899. Now, as you do not find it possible to order the work to proceed
before Septembejr 1, 1899, we will adliere to the terms of our proposal, and upon
receipt of the statements promised, take up the question of financing; extending to
the Quebec Bridge Company the privilege of ordering the work ahead at any time in
the near future, say one or two years; providing at the time the work is ordered to
proceed either party to the contract may request the prices for plain structural metal
revised to agree with the ruling price of metal at the time. I feel quite certain upon
carefully considering this matter, you will see that this is a very reasonable proposi-
tion. We do not benefit a dollar; our profit remains as in our original proposal and
all other items, but the one item mentioned. I hope to receive your favourable reply
to-day, when I am sure we will be able to interest our friends to assist in the financ-
ing of the enterprise.
Yours truly
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engineer,
The Phoenix Bridge Company declined to accept the securities of the Quebec
Bridge Company in payment for work, but made a strong effort on behalf of the
Quebec Bridge Company to place those securities with certain American financial
firms of high standing. This effort did not succeed, the reason for the failure being
given by Mr. Deans in liis te-'^timony (see evidence), and, briefly put, was that the fiuiin-
ciers said there was not sufficient traffic and revenue in sight to justify the investment.
During the first two weeks of April, 1900, correspondence was in progress con-
cerning the lengthening of the main span.
On April 5, IflOO. the directors of the Quebec Bridge Company appointed
committees to conclude arrangements with the contractors both for substructure and
for superstructure.
JiF.l'OKT OF THE COMilliiSIONESS 25
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
On April 12. 1000. one committee met Mr. Deans in Mr. Cooper's office in New
York, and awarded to the Phoenix Bridpe Company the contract for the entire super-
structure, the terms and conditions of this award being set out in the agreement of
even date as follows : —
New York, April 12, 1900.
It is hereby agreed between the Quebec Bridge Company, represented by the
Hon. S. X. Parent, president, of the first part, and the Phoenix Bridge Company,
represented by John Sterling Deans, chief engineer, of the second part, as follows :—
To wit: That the party of the first part does hereby award the contract for the
construction of the superstructure and steel anchorages of the bridge to be built over
the river St. Lawrence, near Quebec, to the party of the second, upon the cash price
tendered on March 1, 1899, subject, however, to modifications as to base price of metal
stated in letter addressed to E. A. Hoare, company's engineer, dated August 23, 1899,
and endorsed by said engineer, the superstructure and steel anchorage to be ordered
within three years from date of this present agreement.
The party of the second part hereby agrees to deliver complete all steel required
for both anchorages at the respective pier sites within four months after approval of
detail plans of same.
The price to be paid for the said metal anchoragee by the party of the first part
will be fixed at the rate to be mutually agreed upon at the date that the metal is
ordered, on delivery at bridge site as aforesaid in good condition, in cash, payable in
monthly estimates, less 20 per cent drawback until the anchorage piers are complete,
the party of the first part undertaking to pay all custom charges.
The party of the second part hereby agrees to complete all the general and detail
plans for the entire superstructure with all possible speed, and to furnish the details
of the metal anchorages by the 15th day of June, 1900, and to furnish any other data
required by the engineer for arranging dimensions of bridge seats and foundations.
It is further understood that the party of the first part is to have the privilege of
ordering the superstructure in whole or any complete portion of the structure at any
time within the said three years. It being, however, agreed that the party of the
second part is to have the order for whole or any portion at least six months in
advance of time said whole or portion is to be ready for erection.
The price of metal now used for the steel anchorages as above is not to be a basis
for the price of the remaining metal of superstructure. The price of metal is to be
mutually agreed upon at the time each portion of the structure is ordered, according
to letter dated August 23, 1899, aforesaid.
It is further agreed that this agreement shall not take effect until approved by the
board of directors of Quebec Bridge Company and Phcenix Bridge Company,
respectively.
S. N. PARENT,
Pres., Quebec Bridge Co.
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chf. Eng., the Phcenix Bridge Co.
On April 14, 1900, Mr. Deans wrote to the Hon. Mr. Parent, asking if the board
had .ipproved the agreement of April 12. and stating his understanding of the respective
powers of Messrs. Cooper and Hoare. He asked Mr. Parent to confirm this under-
standing.
26 ROTAL COilillSSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
(Exhibit No. 75-K.)
April 14, 1900.
Hon. S. N. Parekt,
Pres., Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Canada.
Dear Sir, — In view of the extreme importance of avoiding delay on your work,
which we all appreciate, I write to ask you to kindly wire us when our recent agree-
ment has been approved by your board and they have decided to order the metal work
of anchorages.
We understand that in all engineering matters, we are to receive our instructions
from Mr. E. A. Hoare, your engineer, and that he works under authority from your
board. Please advise if we are correct in this.
Further, we understand that all of our detailed plans of the structure, including
sections, &c., must have the approval of Mr. Theo. Cooper, consulting engineer, 35
Broadway, New York, N.Y. Please advise us if we are correct in this.
I write you on these matters in advance of receiving your instructions to proceed,
that there may not be the least delay in knowing how to proceed.
Tours truly,
JNO. STERLIXG DEAXS,
Chief Engineer.
On April 19, 1900, the directors of the Quebec Bridge Company approved the
agreement of April 12, but subject to the condition that it was not to take effect until
the agreement with Mr. Davis should be concluded.
On April 21, 1900, the Hon. S. N. Parent wired Mr. Deans, in answer to his
letter of the 14th inst., as follows : —
April 21, 1900.
J. S. Deans,
Phoenix Bridge Company,
Phoenixville, Pa.
Agreement made in New York April 12, approved by board. Proceed with plans
immediately so as to enable us to order steel for anchorage piers upon approval of
same. Arrangements made with Davis. You can confer with Cooper and Hoare re
plans.
S. N. PARENT,
Pres., Q. B. Co.
On the same day ilr. Barthe wrote to Mr. Deans inclosing a copy of the minute
of the resolution of the board of directors, confirming the agreement of April 12, and
also confirming the Hon. S. N. Parent's telegram of that date.
Quebec, April 21, 1900.
Letter headed Quebec Bridge Co.
Mr. J. S. Deans.
Phcenix Bridge Company.
Phcenixvillc, Pa.
Dkar Sir, — I am instructed to confirm you the telegram which was sent this
morning by the president, as follows: —
April 21. 1900.
J. S. Deans,
Phcenix Bridge Company,
Phflonixville, Pa.
Agreement made in New York April 12, approved by board. Proceed with plans
immediately so as to enable us to order steel for anchorage piers upon approval of
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 27
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
same. Arrangements made with Davis. You can confer with Cooper and Hoare re
plans.
Pres., Q. B. Co.
I also beg to inclose copy of resolution adopted by the board of directors this
morning.
Yours truly,
ULKIC BARTHE,
Secretary.
On ilay 5, 1900, the directors of the Quebec Bridge Company passed a resolution
changing the main span from l.COO to 1,S(X» feet, and directing the engineers of the
company to in.struct the contractors to prepare plans accordingly.
On June 15, 1900, Messrs. Cooper, Hoare and Deans met in New York, and agreed
on the price to be paid for the anchorage metal, this price being fixed in accordance
with the terms of Mr. Deans' letter of August 23, 1899.
On December 19, 1900, a further agreement in accordance with the terms of the
agreement of April V2. 1900, was made for the construction of the ajiproach spans.
Revised Agreement.
Dated, New York, Dec. 19, 1900.
It is hereby agreed between the Quebec Bridge Company, represented by the Hon.
S. X. Parent, president, party of the first part, and the Phcenix Bridge Company,
represented by John Sterling Deans, chief engineer, party of the second part, as
follows : — •
The party of the second part agrees to deliver and erect complete, according to
specifications hereto attached, forming part of these presents, all the steel work required
for both the approaches of the proposed bridge over the St. Lawrence river at Quebec, .
within six months after the approval of detailed plans by the engineers of the party
of the first part, which shall allow final delivery of this metal work to be made not
later than September 1, 1901.
The party of the first part agrees to pay to the party of the second part for said
metal approaches at the rate of i-ll-l cents per pound erected and painted complete,
in cash, upon the certificates of the engineer of the party of the first part and the
Dominion government and provincial engineer, and the engineer of the city of
Quebec, of the erection of each approach.
Should the metal work of either of the approaches not be erected on or before
January 1, 1902, due to causes beyond the control of the party of the second part, then
the party of the second part shall be paid in cash not later than January 15, 1902, on
account of the metal work delivered at the bridge site, 3 '314 cents per pound, less 20
per cent reserved until the metal work is erected. If either of the approaches is not
erected before January 1, 1903, due to causes beyond the control of the party of the
second part, then the party of the first part agrees to pay to the party of the second
part the 20 per cent reserve in cash not later than January 15, 1903.
It is further understood that the party of the first part shall benefit to the extent
of any drop in the base price of metal between the date of this agreement and May 1,
1901, said drop in the base price of metal to be determined as per agreement for
anchorage metal, dated April 12, 1900.
It is further understood the party of the first part shall pay all custom duties
and charges.
The price of metal now used for the steel in approaches as above, is not to he a
basis for the price of the remaining metal of the superstructure. The price of metal
28 ROYAL COMMISSIOX OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
for the said remaining superstructure is to be mutually agreed upon at the time each
portion of the superstructure is ordered, according to letter dated August 23, 1899,
aforesaid.
It is further agreed that this agreement shall not take efEect until approved by
the board of directors of the Quebec Bridge Company and the Phoenix Bridge
Company respectively.
S. N. PAEENT,
President, Quehec Bridge Company.
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engineer, the Pheenix Bridge Company.
The agreement was confirmed by the board of directors on January 17, 1901, and
this contract was carried out by the Phoenix Bridge Company during 1901, 1902 and
1903.
In the spring of 1903, the question of the main span was taken up, and on June
19, 1903, the final contract was entered into. This is in accordance with Mr. Deans'
letter of August 23, 1899, and with the terms of the award of April 12, 1900. The
contract reads as follows: —
Articles of Agreement made and concluded this 19th day of June, 1903, between
the Quebec Bridge Company (Limited), a corporation of the province of Quebec,
Canada, party of the first part, and the Phoenix Bridge Company, a corporation of
the State of Pennsylvania, party of the second part, witnesseth:
First. — That the party of the first part does hereby confirm the award (hereto-
fore made) of the contract for the construction of the entire superstructure of the
bridge over the River St. Lawrence, near Quebec, in accordance with the plans and
specifications hereto attached and made a part thereof, to the party of the second
part, for the cash prices named in schedule paragraph (6).
Second. — That the party of the first part agrees to pay all custom duties, entry
•'i'^iiees and expenses, on materials and plant.
■'■■;•' Third. — That for and in consideration of the payments and covennnt.3 to be
.•*made and performed by the party of the first part, the party of the second part does
hereby agree to construct, deliver and erect in the most substantial and workmanlike
manner, to the satisfaction and acceptance of the consulting engineer and the
engineer of the party of the first part, and in accordance with the general plans and
specifications hereto attached, and made a part of this agreement, the metal super-
structure, railings, screens and guard rails, also the timber for tracks and highway
floors, of the bridge over the St. Lawrence river, near Quebec, consisting of one
central span of eighteen hundred feet and two side or anchor spans of five hundred
feet each.
Fourth. — That before any work is done under this agreement the detailed plans
shall be approved by the engineers of the party of the first part and the chief engineer
of the Department of Railways and Canals of the Dominion of Canada.
The engineer of the party of the first part or his duly apiwinted representative
phall have the right to inspect all material covered by this agreement, at all stages
of the work, and shall have full power to condemn or reject any work or material of
inferior quality and not in strict accordance with the requirements of this agree-
ment.
Fifth. — The said superstructure shall be completed by the 31st day of December.
lOOfi, unless delayed or prevented by strikes, floods, or other causes be.\r>nd the control
of the said party of the second part, or unlo'^s the party of the first part shall fail
to make any of the payments as hereinafter stipulated or to keep nny of its covenants
herein oontained.
The above date of completion is based upon the understanding that work under
this agreement may proceed uninterruptedly from this date.
REPORT or THE COMM[SSI02fER8
29
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Sixth. — In consideration of doing and performing the work embraced in this
agreement, the party of the first part hereby covenantiS and agrees to pay to the party
of the second part, in addition to all custom duties, entry fees aad expenses, as
provided in paragraph (2), the following prices, namely: —
Estimated Quantities.
Steel in trusses and bracing complete per lb. 5-60c. 50,897,000 lbs.
Steel in floor beams and stringers complete. . " 5 -Soc 7,700,000 "
Steel in railings, screens and guard rails
complete " 5 -550. 755,000 "
Steel in washers, bolts. &c., complete " 5 •75c. 120,000 "
Timber in railway track in place complete
per M. ft. B.M $35 865.000 ft.
Timber in highway floors in place complete
per M. ft. B.M. $.33 725.000 ft.
Payment shall be made in the following manner, to wit : —
On or about the last day of each month, during the progress of this work, the
engineer of the party of the first part shall estimate the value of material furnished
and work done at the manufactory of the said party of the second part at Phoenixville,
Pa., also material delivered at bridge site and work done at bridge site at the schedule
rates hereinafter specified for the several classifications, and ninety per cent of the
amount of said estimates shall be paid in cash to the party of the second part on or
before the tenth day of the following month. After the ten per cent reserve amounts
to a total of one hundred thousand dollars ($1IX).000) the monthly estimates there-
after shall be paid in full. The balance due to said party of the second part shall
he paid in cash to it in thirty days after all the work embraced in this contract is
completed in accordance with the plans and specifications and accepted by the engineer
of the party of the first part, and only after the bridge has been tested with the
specified loads or in any other manner required by the engineers of the party of the
first part, and has obtained certificates from the chief engineer of the Department of
Railways and Canals of the Dominion of Canada, stating that the bridge has been
accepted and can be safely used for railway and highway traffic. It is agreed that the
absolute title to all material at Phoenixville, or elsewhere, ninety per cent of the value
of which has been included in any monthly settlement, shall upon payment pass to the
party of the first part, and the party of the second part will deliver a bill of sale
therefor to the party of the first part.
Seventh. — The schedule rates to be used in making the monthly estimates for the
work as it progresses are as herein stated. If there are any other items than those
here indicated, the schedule rates are to be determined by the engineers of the party
of the first part.
Classification.
Tnisses
and
Bracing.
Floor Beams
and
Stringers.
Railway,
Screen and
Guard Rails.
Washers,
Bolts.
Ac.
S cts.
S cts.
S cts.
Metal rolled at mills (including approved de-
sign and detail drawings)
Metal manufactured at shops
Aletal delivered
Metal erected
Metal erected and paint«d, complete
Timber in railway track
Timber in highway floors
S cts.
Delivered at site. S2.S per M . feet board measure.
In place, complete. S3o per M, feet board measure.
Delivered at site, S26 per M. feet board measure.
In place, complete, S33 per M. feet board measure.
30 ROYAL COilillSSIOX OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Eighth. — The party of the second part shall take, use, provide and make all proper,
necessary and sufficient precautions, safeguards and protections against the occurring
or happening of any accidents, injuries, damages, or hurt to any person or property
during the progress of the erection of the work herein contracted for, and indemnify
and save harmless the said party of the first part, from the payment of all sums of
money by reason of all or any such accidents, injuries, damages or hurt that may
happen or occur upon or about said work, and from all fines, penalties and loss incurred
for or by reason of the violation of any city or borough ordinance or harbour regula-
tions, or laws of the Dominion of Canada or province of Quebec, for which they are
responsible, while the said work is in progress of construction.
Xinth. — It is understood and agreed that the party of the second part shall
indemnify and protect the party of the first part from all claims under any law for
labour and materials furnished under this contract, and shall furnish the said party
of the first part with satisfactory evidence when called for that all persons who have
worked for or furnished materials to the contractor or sub-contractors have been fully
paid or satisfied, and failing which an amount necessary and sufficient to meet the
claims of the persons aforesaid shall be retained by the party of the first part from
any moneys due said party of the second part until the liabilities aforesaid have been
paid; this clause is not intended, however, to apply to claims made against the party
of the second part which he lona fide contests his liability for, and when the work is
completed the party of the second part will furnish the party of the first part with
a satisfactory bond indemnifying the party of the first part from all and any of the
claims that may be against them by reason of any acts of the party of the second part
or sub-contractors.
Tenth. — All materials and supplies pu't -on the work and settled for through
progress estimates in the manner provided for in this contract shall become the
property of the party of the first part.
Eleventh. — The party of the second part shall conform to all Harbour Commis-
sioners' regulations for the safety of vessels when passing the bridge site, and the •
part.v of the second part shall further be responsible for all damages to vessels that
may arise from neglect or proper precautions, or damages to the work in progress
from any cause until the entire superstructure is completed and accepted by the partj'
of the first part and the Government of the Dominion of Canada.
Twelfth. — The party of the second part shall restore at his own cost all or any
part of the work that may be damaged or destroyed before its acceptance by the
aforesaid parties, notwithstanding that payments on account of progress estimates
ma.v have been made previous to the occurrence of such damages.
Thirteenth. — The party of the second part further agrees that the whole of the
working plant to be placed and used b.v him on the bridge superstructure, including
all mechanical appliances, hoisting machines, motive power, tools, machinery and
equipment, used in said work, and buildings, workshops, hmdings or false works
erected for the purpose ;of the present contract, shall be and remain the property of
the party of the first part until the completion of the works, as a guarantee of the
due and proper execution of the works.
Fourteenth. — The party of the second part will be obliged to give a guarantee
company bond satisfactory to the iparty of the first part, amounting to one hundred
thousand dollars ($100,000"), which, together with the one hundred thousand dollars
($100,000) roserved according to the sixth clause hereof, shall constitute a fund of
two hundred thousand dollars ($200,000) as a gimrantoe for the faithf\il performance
of the ^\^ork \indor this agreement.
Fifteenth. — The price of extra work cannot bo claimed by the pirty of the second
part unless same has been authorized in writing b.v the engineer and approved of b.v
a resohition of the board of dirix'tors of the party of the first part.
Sixteenth. — The decision of the engineers of the part.v of the first part shall
control as to the interpretation of the plans and specifications attached and the work
REPORT OF TBE COMMISSIONERS 31
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
performofi under this agreement, during the execution of the work, but if either
party shall deem itself to have been aggrieved by any decision, it may require the
dispute to be finally and conclusively settled by the decision of three arbitrators, the
first to be appointed by the party of the first part, the second by the party of the
second part, and the third to be appointed by the first two named. By such decision
iboth parties hereto >'hall be finally bound, it being understood that no such submis-
sion to arbitration shall suspend or postpone the making of any of the payments as
herein provided, except onl,v tto the extent actually involved therein.
In witness whereof the said parties to those presents have hereunto set their
respective corporate seals. Dated the day and year first herein T\Titten.
THE PHCENIX BRIDGE COMPANY.
'Attest: By David Reeves, (Seal)
George Gerry White,
Secretary.
(Seal Q. B. Co.) S. X. PARENT,
Ulric Barthe, President.
S&cretary Treasurer.
This agreement was confirmed by the directors of the Quebec Bridge Company
on the day that it was made.
Its acceptance by the Piiopnix Bridge Company was only provisional, ^Mr. Reeves
attaching the following letter to the signed agreement : —
PHCENcniLLE, Pa., June 19, 1903.
Hon. S. X. Parent,
President, Quebec Bridge Company, Limited,
Quebec. Canada.
Dear Sir. — We hand you herpwith articles of agreement for the construction of
the superstructure of main spans of the Quebec "bridge, executed by this company,
upon the understanding that said agreement shall not become oijerative until the
legislation proposed at present session of parliament has taken place and the financial
arrangements insuring payments of estimates under said agreements have been
arranged to the satisfaction of this company, and letters have passed between the two
companies to this effect.
In the meantime, that there may be the least delay, we agTee to proceed with all
possible speed with the stress sheets and detailed drawings, as soon as the revised
specifications have been furnished to us. approved by the government engineers.
It is further to be understood, that the time named in the agreement for the
completion of the work is one which we do not guarantee, and it is based upon the
work proceeding uninterruptedly from this date. The date named we will do our best
to keep. We cannot accept any responsibility for damages of any kind which may
result from any delay in the completion beyond the date fixed in agreement.
We agree, however, to complete the work under the terms of said agreement by
December 31, 190S. and will pay to the Quebec Bridge Company, Limited. $5,000
per month for each month thereafter that the work called for by the said agreement
is not completed.
Should there be any stoppage of the work for a period of six months from any
cause for which the Phrenix Bridge Company is not responsible, except from strikes
and floods, thereupon an estimate shall be made of the total expense incurred by the
Phcenix Bridge Company on account of said agreement to date, and after deducting
all payments made to date, the balance plus ten per cent of said total expense, shall
be immediately due and paid to the Phcenix Bridge Company in cash by the Quebec
Bridge Company, Limited.
We agree to modify the prices made in this agreement, to the extent of any
variation in the base price of plain metal on cars Philadelphia, from $1.80 per pound.
32 ROTAL COilillSSIOi' OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
and which variation may occur between this date and August 15, 1903; said change,
if any, to be agreed upon by your chief engineer, Theo. Cooper, consulting engineer,
and John Sterling Deans, chief engineer of this company.
It is moreover understood that the agreement shall not be assigned or transferred
by either party to the same without the consent of the other.
The articles of agreement handed you herewith shall become binding only upon
my receipt from you of a duplicate duly executed by your company, accompanied by
a letter confirming the understanding as expressed above.
Tours truly.
DAVID REEVES,
President, the Phcenix Bridge Company.
On February 22. 1904, the Hon. S. N. Parent wrote to Mr. Reeves as follows : —
Quebec, February 22, 1904.
Da\td Reeves, Esq.,
President, Phoenix Bridge Company,
410 Walnut Street.
De.\r Sir, — Referring to the contract between the Quebec Bridge Company (now
styled the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company) and your company, and also to the
letters exchanged between our companies in last June, and particularly to the first
clause in your letter of June 19, 1903, I beg to inform you that the legislation pro-
posed in the last mentioned letter has taken place, and that the following financial
arrangements insuring payments of estimates under this company's agreement with
you have been made, namely: —
1. Provision has been made for the payment and discharge of the outstanding
bonds and mortgages of the Quebec Bridge Company referred to in section 10 of the
Act of Parliament, 3 Edward VII., chapter 17Y, in accordance with the terms of that
section.
2. The agreement in reference to the government guaranty referred to in section
13 of the same Act was, on the 28th day of January, submitted to and approved by a
general meeting of the shareholders of this company duly called for that purpose in
accordance with the provisions of that section.
3. This company has arranged with the present subscribers to the capital stock
of the company for the surrender of the same in accordance with clause 3 in the
agreement set forth in the schedule to the Act of Parliament (3 Edward VII.,
chapter 54).
4. Subscriptions have been procured for additional stock of this company to the
amount of $200,000 as provided for in clause 4 of the last mentioned agreement.
5. Arrangements have been made for underwriting the bonds referred to in the
fifth and sixth clauses of the said last mentioned agreement as issued.
6. The stockholders and board of directors of this company have duly performed
everything required by the two Acts of Parliament and the said agreement, as condi-
tions precedent for a compliance with the terms imposed upon this company by the
aforesaid agreement.
It is of course understood that the change of name of the Quebec Bridge
Company to that of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company shall not in any way
impair, alter or affect the rights or liabilities under the contract entered into with
your company in June, 1903.
Truly yours,
S. N. PARENT,
President.
REPORT OF THE COilMISSIOyERS 33
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
On March 15, 1904, ilr. Reeves wrote to the Hon. S. N. Parent, advising him
that the assurances contained and the terms expressed in his letter of February 22
were satisfactory to the Phoenix Bridge Company (Exhibit 113 C).
On March 17, 1904, Mr. Deans wrote to Mr. Parent, stating that the contract is
now closed, and congratulating Mr. Parent upon his success.
There are no subsequent alterations of these business arrangements.
The Phoenix Bridge Company had not completed the work under this contract
when the accident took place on August 29, 1907.
The connection of the government with the enterprise provide! the means for
building the bridge, and the final approval of plans rested with it, but in no way did
the government exercise any check on the work itself, or any authority over the
contractors. The administration of the contract and the disposition of the funds
supplied by the government were left entirely in the control of the Quebec Bridge
Company, subject to the approval of the estimates by the government inspector, and
except that the quantities of material were checked at Phienixville by a clerk
appointed by the Department of Railways and Canals, and an officer of that depart-
ment visited the bridge in connection with the checking of estimates, there was no
supervision on the part of the government.
By no act did the government assume or exercise authority over the Phoenix
Bridge Company, nor did it intervene under the contract for the bridge; the checking
and inspection done by the government and above referred to were with reference to the
operations of the Quebec Bridge Company, as the agreement for financing was
between the government and the Quebec Bridge Company. The only party, there-
fore, who was competent to deal with the Phoenix Bridge Company, and who only did
deal with it, was the Quebec Bridge Company.
On the part of the government, its confidence in the Quebec Bridge Company
was complete; in so far as the integrity of the structure itself was concerned, this
was because of the presence of ilr. Cooper as the consulting engineer for the Quebec
Bridge Company. The government was familiar with the terms of the contract
between the two companies.
HEXRY HOLGATE,
Cliairmari.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
APPENDIX No. 4.
THE PHCEXIX BRIDGE COilPAXY.
This company was incorporated under the authority of an Act of the General
Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, entitled ' An Act to provide for
the incorporation and regulation of certain corporations,' which received approval
on April 29, 1874.
The date of the letters patent incorporating the Phoenix Bridge Company is
April 2, 1884, the original shareholders being David Reeves, William H. Reeves,
Adolphus Bonzano, George Gerry White and Carrol S. Tyson.
The Phoenix Bridge Company was formed, according to its charter (Exhibit 119),
' for the purpose of manufacturing articles of commerce from iron and steel, and the
building of bridges, roofs, viaducts and all kinds of structural work from metal or
wood, or both, and to erect and construct such improvements and erections as they
may deem necessary, and in general to do all such other acts and things as a suecess-
' 154— vol. i— 3
34 EOTAL COmilSSIOS OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
fill, convenient prosecution of said business may require and as may be necessary,
incidental and appurtenant thereto. The business of the company to be transacted
in the borough of Phcenisville, county of Chester, in this commonwealth."
The company's charter is a perpetual one. The capital of the company is
$100,000, divided into shares of $100 each.
The Phcenis Bridge Company is an engineering and eoutractiug company, and
is not a manufacturing company. It has an arrangement with the Phcenix Iron
Company, an entirely independent corporation, under which the material for its
bridges and other structural work is manufactured and fabricated in accordance with
the Bridge Company's instructions. The financial control of both companies is the
same, but formal methods of accounts, charges and payments are maintained between
the two companies precisely as in other contracts that either company might enter
into. This arrangement has been in force since 1884, and much of the material for
the Quebec bridge was manufactured and all was fabricated by the Phoenix Iron
Company to the order of the Phienix Bridge Company in accordance with this
arrangement.
The Phcenix Bridge Company is a tenant of the Phoenix Iron Company at
Phoenixville, and pays rental to it for office buildings, &c.
Delivery is made to the Phoenix Bridge Company as soon as the material is
loaded on cars for shipment, and that company attends to its transportation and
erection.
In effect, the Phoenix Bridge Company sublet the manufacture of the Quebec
bridge to the Phoenix Iron Company, but itself undertook the design and erection.
No mention of the Phoenix Iron Company is made in the contract with the Quebec
Bridge and Railway Company or in any of the correspondence relating to it.
The officers of the Phoenix Bridge Company and of the Phoenix Iron Company
resi)ectively are as follows: —
Phcenix Bridge Company:
David Beeves^ president.
Wm. H. Beeves, general superintendent.
Geo. Gerry Wliite, secretary.
Frank T. Davis, treasurer.
John Sterling Deans, chief engineer.
Ph<enix Iron Company :
David Reeves, president.
Wm. H. Reeves, general superintendent.
Geo. Gerr.v White, secretary.
George C. Carson, Jr., treasurer.
Frank P. Norris, manager.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 35
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
APPENDIX No. 5.
THE EFFECT OF FINANCIAL LIMITATIONS UPON THE DESIGN OF
THE BRIDGE, AND A DISCUSSION OF THE EVIDENCE
RELATING TO THIS.
The fact that the carrying out of the bridge project was for years delayed by
lack of funds, being a matter of common knowledge, it was desirable to investigate
the effect of this condition upon the design and execution of the work.
Mr. Cooper has stated that ' during the early progress of the work it was an open
secret that the Quebec Bridge Company had but a small amount of money in sight.'
(.See Evidence.)
In proof of this statement reference may be made to the following facts: —
Between 1887 and 1898 the Quebec Bridge Company accomplished practically
nothing.
In 1900, it let the contract for the substructure, pajmient to be made partly out
of subsidies and partly in bonds of the company to be accepted at 60 per cent of the
face value, and offered its superstructure contract on similar terms.
In 1900 its securities were thoroughly investigated by the leading firms of
American hankers, who declined to invest in them.
The Phcrnix Bridge Company was paid for the construction of the approach
spans not by the Quebec Bridge Company, which ordered them, but by Mr. il. P.
Davis. (Deans to Bartlie, August 2.?, 1901. Ex. 74 XL)
It must have been clear to the engineers from the first that the financial condi-
tions were such that nothing but absolutely necessary work could be undertaken.
The effect of the lack of funds is noticeable in the methods of calling for tenders,
and of letting contracts, and in the delays that occurred in the execution of the work.
In September, 1898, the bridge contracting firms were asked to submit tenders
upon their own designs, to be drawn in accordance with certain specifications. Prac-
tically this meant that each bridge company was asked to spend several thousand
dollars on the preparation of plans, and that in return it was given an opportunity
to bid for a contract to be let by a company of weak financial standing. The result
was that although the magnitude of the work placed it outside the limits of estab-
lished practice, most of the tenders submitted were made from immature studies based
upon insufficient data. The evidence shows that the Phoenix Bridge Company gave
more time and attention to the competition than any other tenderer, but the error
afterwards made by it in assuming the weight of the structure for final designs shows
how faulty the estimate accompanying its original tender was. We consider that the
procedure adopted in calling for tenders was not satisfactory in view of the magni-
tude of the work, and was not calculated to produce the most efficient results.
In his evidence (see Evidence) Mr. Hoare ascribes the failure of the Quebec Bridge
Company to take advantage of the lump simi tender of the Phcenix Bridge Company
to lack of funds. We are satisfied from the knowledge gained during the designing
of the 1,800-foot span, that the 1.600-foot span could not have been built with the
weight of metal stated in the tender of March 1. 1899. Mr. Deans' letter to Mr.
Hoare (Ex. 75 D, April 14, 1899) shows that the Phcenix Bridge Company expected
that its tender would be modified before the work wps built. The letter is as follows:
154— vol. i— .3i
36 ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
April 14, 1899.
(Personal and private.)
Mr. E. A. HoARE,
Chief Engineer, Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Quebec.
Dear Mr. Hoare, — Mr. Szlapka and I were with ilr. Cooper the greater part of
yesterday, and you will be glad to learn there was not a single vital or important
criticism or mistake to be found in our plans. All the slight differences, such as dead
load, anchor arms, reverse stresses, in one or two members, thickness of some detail
plates, &c., were all thoroughly discussed and satisfactorily settled, and not a single
one would affect in any way our price or our proposition. It was especially gratify-
ing for us to learn this.
Mr. Cooper, however, somewhat upset me, by making the following remark, which
of course I understood was entirely personal and without any full knowledge of the
situation. He said : ' Well, Deans, I believe that all of the bids will probably overrun
the amount which the Quebec Bridge Company can raise, and that the result will be
as is usually the case, that all of the bids will be thrown out and a new tender asked
on revised specifications and plans.'
I told Mr. Cooper that while this might be the usual procedure, that in the
present case it was distinctly understood that whoever was the lowest bidder under
the present specifications and plans would be awarded the work, and if any modifica-
tions were made their bid would he altered accordingly, as this could readily be done
through a conference with the Bridge Company's engineers and ourselves; as we
could undoubtedly build as cheap a structure as any other company, and that unless
this plan was carried out as understood and agreed upon, the present bidders would
be placed in a very unfair position after the expenditure of great time and expense.
I finally succeeded in convincing Mr. Cooper that this was the only fair method,
but I think it will take the greatest care on your part to see that his report is not
worded in such a way as to give the directors an opportunity of following this sugges-
tion. Mr. Cooper undoubtedl.y desires to be perfectly fair, but not having been
through this whole matter like ourselves, does not fully understand the situation. 1
trust, therefore, that you will give his report the most careful scrutiny, and get it
in the right shape before it is submitted, as far as this suggestion is concerned. It
would simply be just what our competitors, and particularly the Dominion Bridge
Company, would like, or the Union Bridge Company in fact, and I shall be much
interested to hear from you on this point.
You have not advised me to whom I shall send the revised price, including
delivery of the material from Quebec and Levis to site.
Mr. Lindenthal and I have an appointment with Mr. Cooper next Tuesday, to
discuss the suspension plan.
Kindly advise me when you will desire the revised propositions of the suspension
design.
Yours truly,
JXO. STERLING DEANS.
We desire to draw attention to this letter, because it indicates that the contract
was subsequently awarded on the result of this competition, the basis of the award
being a lump sum tender, which could not have been accepted without modifications.
These errors \ve ascribe to failure on the part of the Quebec Bridge Company to
provide for sufficient preliminary studies of the project by its own engineers. It
should also lie noted that in the opinion of Jfr. Cooper the preliminary surveys from
which the main spans and the position of foundation piers. &c., were first determined
were entirely insufficient (see Evidence) ; further cxaniinations and borings wore made
on his advice, and resulted in radical alterations it\ the design.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 37
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
In April, 1900, the Pha?nix Bridge Company undertook to complete the plans for
the bridge with all possible speed. In May, 1900, the Quebec Bridge Company, on
the advice of its consulting engineer, determined to adopt a main span of 1,800 feet,
and tacitly approved alterations of the specifications. The contractors were ordered
to proceed with the designing for the 1,800-foot span under the supervision of Messrs.
Hoare and Cooper, but the new specifications, which had to be accepted and oificially
approved by the Canadian government, were not issued until the summer of 1903.
This delay of three years seems to have occurred with the mutual consent of the
Quebec Bridge Company and the Phoenix Bridge Company. The Quebec Bridge
Company was not in a position to pay for the work, and did not demand that the
designing be proceeded with, nor did it furnish the necessary data for the designing.
The Phoenix Bridge Company was occupied with other contracts, and did not make
any further expenditures on behalf of tJie Quebec Bridge Company until the financial
position was assured.
Wlien the Dominion government finally came to be more closely identified with
the Quebec Bridge Company, in 1903, it intimated unofficially to the Phwnix Bridge
Company its desire that the bridge should be ready for the Quebec Tercentenary in
T908 (see Ex. 77 F). For this and for ordinary business reasons the Phrenix Bridge
Company hurried the work of designing and manufacture as much as possible, this
hurry resulting in errors, but not in those errors which were the immediate cause of
the accident, these having been previously made. It is necessary in designing a
bridge to commence by assuming what its weight will be, and as the design progresses
to alter this assumption by calculation from the drawings. In the rush following the
final financial arrangements of 1903, the necessity of revising the assumed weights
was overlooked both by the engineers of the Phoenix Bridge Company and by those of
the Quebec Bridge Company, with the result that the bridge members would have
been considerably over-stressed after completion. This error was sufficient to have
condemned the bridge had it not fallen owing to other causes.
During the period occupied in the development of the details of the design, the
designing engineer and his staff were absorbed in the preparation of detail plans, and
this resulted in the slighting of matters of primary importance.
Fnder the circxmistances this condition was unavoidable, but could have been
improved had the time between April, 1900, and August, 1903, been used in considera-
tion and preparation of designs ; otherwise business matters were in such shape that
the Phoenix Bridge Company were not warranted in expending time and money in
this direction.
It is also proper to inquire whether the engineers modified their designs to the
injury of the bridge on account of the financial conditions.
The importance of economy in the preparation of the first tenders is shown by
the letter already quoted.
The tenders, however, had to conform to the original specifications, and there is
no evidence of unwise economy in the provisions of these.
Mr. Cooper's attitude with regard to cost, while he was examining the plans and
tenders, is shown by the following letter: —
April 19, 1899.
(Personal.)
E. A. Hoare. Esq.,
Chief Engineer, Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Quebec.
Dear Mr. Hoare. — I spent most of yesterday in Xew York in consultation with
Mr. Cooper and Mr. Lindenthal. and found that Mr. Cooper had no serious complaints
to make in connection with Mr. Lindenthal's plan; in fact he expressed himself as
much interested in the ingenious design.
38 7for.lL couuissioy ox colufse of Quebec bridge
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
It develoi)ed, however, in conversation, and Mr. Cooper so expressed himself to
Mr. Lindenthal, that in view of the amount of the bid under his design, he would not
give Mr. Lindenthal's plan careful and detailed consideration, and would so report
This rather exasi^erated Mr. Lindenthal, and for a time I feared he might withdraw
his bid, but it was smoothed over and I think will be permitted to stand. Mr.
Lindenthal thought that Mr. Cooper should report solely and whoUy on the merits of
the several designs, without any regard to cost, and each design should have the same
careful consideration, and that you and your company alone should consider the ques-
tion of price. I know this is entirely diilerent from Mr. Cooper's instructions, and
that it would be useless to spend detailed investigations upon plans which are very
expensive in price, but Mr. Lindenthal viewed the matter from an engineer's stand-
point, and having taken such unusual pains with the desigii and estimate felt that
he was in a measure being slighted.
Mr. Cooper advises that he will finish about May 1.
I think it of the utmost importance to see you some time before that date, and
write to ask if you will not come to New York. Cooper also advised me that he had no
authority to receive any revised bids for possible reduction in susi>ension bridge wire,
and I think this entirely proper. It seems to me, however, that you should have all
of these bids in your hands at once, and I will be prepared to submit ours tvhen j/jow
come to New Yorl\
Please let me know at once and by trire when you will be in Xew York.
Yours truly,
JXO. STEELING DEANS,
Chief Engineer.
In his report upon the competitive tenders submitted on June 23, 1899, Mr.
Cooper says: —
'The tender accompanying this plan (from the Plwrnix Bridge Company) is the
lowest in price, and is the most favourable as to prospective duties upon the materials
to be used in its construction. I therefore hereby conclude and report that the canti-
lever superstructure plan of the Phoenix Bridge Company is the " best and cheapest "
plan and proposal of those submitted to me for examination and report.'
There is no evidence whatever to indicate that economy at the expense of
efficiency was ever considered by Mr. Cooper. His award was made distinctly to the
lowest tenderer, and he .so states, but in the preceding paragraphs the accepted design
is stated to be ' an exceedingly creditable plan ' and ' in accordance with your specifi-
cations.'
The full text of the report and Mr. Cooper's evidence show that his award was
made for technical reasons, although he did not overlook costs; and he states that
(see Evidence) he was left absolutely uidiampcred in any manner in his rejwrt as
to which he should consider the best plan and the best bridge.
In a memorandum accompanying his original report, Mr. Cooper indicated his
desire to alter the specifications, and to reconsider the length of the main span as soon
as proper foundation surveys could be made.
These changes were subsequently made, but it does not app(\ar that economy was
the ruling factor in his selections. He \in<iuestionably increased the unit stresses,
but not to a point beyond those already adoi)ted by the Bridge Do))artment of the city
of New York for its great bridges, and the increase can be stated to be in harmony
with the most advanced practice of that time, and due more to an instinct of wise
investment than to any endeavour to simply cheapen the structure. The wisdom of
his modifications is discussed in apix>ndix l.S.
In liis evidence (s<>e Evidence) ilr. Cooi)er has outlined his intentions in making
liirt alterations, and a desire not to involve the Quebec Bridge Company in a greater
REPORT OF TflE COMMISSIONERS 39
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
expenditure than was at first anticipated is given among them; hut on the same page
it is sharply stated tliat he would not reeonunend any plans that did not promise to
give a safe and satisfactory structure.
The facts that have been discussed in this appendix show that while there is no
evidence of any cheap and insufficient work being purposely done by either Mr. Cooper
or the Phoenix Bridge Company, there is evidence to prove that the financial weak-
ness of the Quebec Bridge Company seriously interfered with the carrying out of the
undertaking.
The Ph(rnix Bridge Company were limited only by the specifications as amended
by Mr. Cooix>r, endorsed by the government and concurred in by themselves, and no
sum of money or total weight was set as a limit in the designing or building of the
superstructure, the sole aim of all being to produce a safe and economical bridge.
The Phoenix Bridge Company were paid for the work at so much jjer pound, so
there was no incentive to the Phoenix Bridge Company to make the bridge lighter
than they deemed it should be.
HEXRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
APPENDIX No. 6.
THE HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE SPECIFICATIONS
AND A DISCUSSION OF THE EVIDENCE RELATING TO IT.
During the summer of 1S9S, Mr. E. A. Hoare. acting in his capacity of chief
engineer of the Quebec Bridge Company, prepared the first set of specifications for
the construction of the bridge. On July 2, 1898, Mr. Hoare was instructed by resolu-
tion of the board of directors of his company to communicate with Mr. CoUingwood
Schreiber, the deputy minister and chief engineer of the Department of Railways
and Canals, so that a set of specifications would be secured that would be satisfactory
both to the government and to the Quebec Bridge Company. On direction of Mr.
Schreiber, Mr. Hoare submitted his draft specifications to Mr. R. C. Douglas, the
bridge engineer of the department, for criticism.
Air. Douglas states in his evidence (see Evidence) that he read over the
specifications with Mr. Hoare, but did not suggest any alterations in them, because
Mr. Hoare met his objections by explaining that the specifications would be used only
in connection with preliminary competitive tenders and not for the construction of
the bridge. He made no official report upon them.
These specifications are, as stated by Mr. Douglas, mainly a direct copy from the
general specifications for steel and iron bridges issued by the Department of Rail-
ways and Canals in 1896. An examination bears out Mr. Cooijer's statement (see
Evidence) that they were not drawn by anyone having the magnitude of this brid^re
structure in mind.
On August 31, 1898, Mr. Schreiber, by letter, notified the Quebec Bridge Company
that Mr. Hoare's specifications had been approved (Exhibit 5).
They were printed on order of the Quebec Bridge Company over date of Septem-
ber 1, 1898. and a copy of them was sent out with each of the invitations to tender
mailed to bridge contractors in September 1898 (Exhibit 21). ■
40 ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
On November 12, 1900, a subsidy agreement Xo. 13988 (Exhibit 12) was made
between the Government of Canada and the Quebec Bridge Company by which, on
certain conditions, assistance to the amount of $1,000,000 was promised to the Quebec
Bridge Company. The Hoare specifications were made a part of this agreement, with
one alteration, viz., the length of the main span was made 1,800 feet instead of 1,600
feet, the Quebec Bridge Company having officially decided on the longer span on May
5, 1900. There is no evidence to show that these specifications were reconsidered at
this time by the technical advisers of the government.
The original specifications were not used in the design of the approach spans
which were made in 1901-2, alterations being made to meet the wishes of Mr. Douglas,
whose approval was required by the deputy minister and chief engineer before pay-
ments on subsidy account could be authorized.
Mr. Cooper, in a memorandum accompanying his original report of June 23,
1899 (Exhibit 9), indicated that he thought the specifications could be modified with
considerable advantage to the interests of the company. On May 1, 1900, Mr. Cooper
recommended to the company the adoption of the 1,800-foot main span, his recom-
mendation being dependent upon the use of certain alterations in the specifications
which were, in his opinion, desirable and justifiable. In a letter of even date to the
Hon. S. N. Parent, he suggests that he ' be instructed to make such modifications in
the adopted competitive plan when adapted to the new lengths, as may tend to reduce
the cost without reducing the carrying capacity or the stability of the structure.'
On May 5, 1900, the board of directors of the Quebec Bridge Company directed
its engineers (Messrs, Cooper and Hoare) to instruct the contractors (the Phoenix
Bridge Company) to prepare plans using the 1,800-foot span recommended by Mr,
Cooper. No active effort was made by the officials of either company to carry out
these instructions, and the amendments to the specifications which had to be formally
appro^-ed by the government before the plans could be commenced were not actively
discussed until May, 1903. The delay was due to financial reasons, no one knoT\-ing
when the work would proceed.
The National Transcontinental Eailway project, which was made public in the
spring of 1903, was so planned that a bridge near Quebec would be a national neces-
sity, and legislation involving a guarantee by the government of the securities of the
Quebec Bridge Company was proposed. With the improved financial outlook, the
activity of the engineers and contractors was renewed. Mr. CooiJer prepared his
amendments to the original specifications, and sent them to Mr. Szlapka, the design-
ing engineer of the Phipnix Bridge Company, for his information and criticism.
Mr. Szlapka criticized the draft, and returned it to Mr. Cooper, after having taken a
copy of it, on May 20, 1903. The comments in his letter show that he had carefully
considered the purport of the amendments. Mr. Deans, returning from Ottawa, wrote
to Mr. Cooper on May 22, 1903, as follows: 'I was requested by the Ottawa officials
to urge upon you to act as promptly as possible in the matter of completing the
specifications, and to forward the same to Mr. Hoare without delay. There is urgent
necessity of their taking prompt action.'
On May 28, 1903, Mr. Deans wrote to Mr. Cooper, suggesting some alterations in
his draft for the amendments, one of which appears in the preface to Mr, Cooper's
draft of June 2, 1903. Mr. Cooper completed his draft of the amendments, and
forwarded it to Mr, Hoare, accompanied by a memoramlum dated June 2, 1903
(Exhibit 21), A copy of the papers was sent also to Mr, Deans,
Mr. Deans, under date of Jimc 4, 1903, acknowledged the receipt of these papers,
and expressed the hope that ' we will soon hear that these specifications have been
approved by the government.'
On June 16, 1903, Mr. Szlapka, at the request of Jlr. Deans, sent to Mr. Honre
two sheets of calculations comparing the stresses permitted under the Hoare sjwcifi-
cations with those permitted by the Cooper amendments. In the accompanying letter
REPORT or THE COMMISSIONERS 41
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
(Exhibit 21) he statcxl: ' With figures given I hope you will he able to see that the
difierence between the two specifications is very immaterial. Where the new specifica-
tions give smaller sections than your specifications, it will be found during actual
final computations that owing to the magnitude of the structure, and consequently
the very large dead load as compared with the live load, the unit stresses selected are
fully justified.' On the sheets accompanying this letter the amendments are referred
to as the ' Proposed si>ecifications of June, 1903. (Theo. Cooper and Plurnix Bridge
Company.)' The officials of the Quebec Bridge Company were therefore distinctly
advised that both Mr. Cooper and the engineers of the Phoenix Bridge Company
considered the adoption of the amendments entirely desirable.
Owing to the terms of the subsidy agreement of November 12, 1900 (Exhibit No.
12), it was necessary to have these amendments approved by the government, and
they were accordingly transmitted to Mr. Schreiber by the Quebec Bridge Company.
Mr. Schreiber handed the papers to Mr. Douglas for report shortly after they reached
his office, and on July 9, 190:5, ilr. Douglas made his report in writing (Exhibit 6.3).
In it he advised the adoption of many of Mr. Cooper's suggestions, but criticized the
high unit stresses that were proposed, and the suggestion made in the memorandum
as to using the bridge for heavier rolling loads than those specified in the amend-
ments. He also advised that the Quebec Bridge Company be required to submit new
specifications, and not merely amendments to the approved Hoare specifications.
Mr. Douglas' opposition was evidently anticipated, as will be seen by the letter
from Mr. Hoare quoted in the evidence. On receipt of the report of July 9, 1903, Mr.
Schreiber had to decide whether he would deisend uixm Mr. Cooi)er or upon. Mr.
Douglas for technical advice, and evidently decided in favour of the former, for, as
stated in the evidence, Mr. Douglas from that time had no authoritative connection
witli the undertaking.
Mr. Cooper's intention in making these amendments was, as stated in his evi-
dence, to rearrange the wind and live loadings so that they would more nearly corres-
pond to his own prediction of the actual loadings that would come upou the structure;
and accordingly he decreased the wind load and increased the rolling live load. He
was also of the opinion that the maximum stresses might safely be increased, and had
recommended the l.SOO-foot span on the assumption that this increase would be per-
mitted. He was throughout impressed with the necessity of making his changes
without adding to the financial demands 6n the resources of the companj-.
Mr. Sehreiber's views are stated in a letter to Mr. Cooper under date of July,
1903 (Exhibit 21), which reads as follows: —
De.^r Sir, — I have received from Mr. E. A. Hoare two memoranda made by you
in respect of the plans of the superstructure of the Quebec bridge, suggesting certain
modifications which you consider desirable.
Inasmuch as the contract for this structure contains an express specification by
which I am bound, I am unable, as matters stand, to sanction any deviations from it.
I am, however, strongly impressed with the expediency, in order not to hinder
the progress of the work of manufacture, of permitting you certain latitude in the
preparation of the detail plans, even to the extent of adopting (with my own concur-
rence) such modifications as may appear proper; and holding this view, 1 have asked
that authority be given me by order in council which will enable me to act in that
direction.
Nothing can. of course, be done until such order is passed, but on receipt of it
I will communicate with you immediately.
' Faithfully yours,
42 ROYAL COilMlSSIOy O.V COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. Schreiber communicated with the Minister of Eailways and Canals as indi-
cated in the foregoing letter on July 9, VMS. and his recommeudations were trans-
mitted by the minister to council on July IS. 1903, and form the substance of the
order in council of July 21, 1903 (Exhibit 17). This order reads as follows: —
Extract from a report of the committee of the Honourable the Privy Council,
approved by the Governor General on July 21, 1903.
On a memorandum dated July IS. 1903, from the Minister of Eailways and
Canals, representing that a communication has been received from the chief engineer
of the Department of Railways and Canals, in regard of the bridge across the River
St. Lawrence, near Quebec, now in course of construction, reading as follows: —
Office of the Deputy MDasTER a?;d Chief Exgdjeer,
Ottawa. 0-\t., July 9, 1903.
L. K. Jones, Esq.,
Secretary, Department Railways and Canals,
Ottawa.
Sir, — Certain questions are at present under consideration and discussion between
Mr. Theodore Cooper, the consulting engineer of the Quebec Bridge Comjxany, and
myself, involving the expediency of adopting some slight modiiicatious of the specifi-
cation for the superstructure of the bridge across the St. Lawrence river, now in
course of construction by that company, attached to the subsidy contract made with
them; Mr. Cooper having prepared detailed plans and specifications of such super-
structure which call for special consideration.
Mr. Cooper is a bridge engineer of high standing in Xew York, and a man of
repute and reliability. He has made a very careful study of the necessities of this
superstructure, which, I may say, was especially imperative in view of the unusual
magnitude of the span and of the general design of the work. His modifications may
therefore reasonably be considered to be in the best interests of the work, and being
engaged continuously upon the work during construction Mr. Cooper will be in the
best position to note the requirements of the structure as the work progresses.
In a work of this character and magnitude it is highly important that no delay
should arise from causes not absolutely unavoidable, to hinder the steady prosecution
of construction, and there is reason to believe that the company require immediate
instructions to proceed.
In connection with the foregoing I would suggest that the department be author-
ized to employ a competent bridge engineer to examine from time to time the detailed
drawings of each part of the bridge as prepared, and to appi-ove of or correct them
as to him may seem necessary, submitting them for final acceptance to the chief
engineer of Railways and Canals.
I have the honour to be, sir.
Your obedient servant,
COLLIXCWOOD SCHREIBER,
Chief Engineer.
The minister recognizing the point urged by tlie chief engineer that there should
be no hindrance thrown in the way of the parties engag(»d in the construction of the
bridge siipcrstructure, and considering that under the circumstances the course
suggested by him is the best that could be adopted for the avoidance of delay, recom-
mends that authority be given for leaving the matter in the hands of the chief
engineer to the extent expressed in his communication, it to be understood that any
action taken under his authority in respect of the said bridge shall be regarded and
treated as in no way a violation of the company's subsidy contract dated the 12th of
REI'ORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 43
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
November, 1900, which contract, if carried out in accordance with the decisions of
the chief cng^incer and to his satisfaction, shall be deemed to have been properly
fultillod.
The committee submit the same for approval.
JOIIX J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.
Mr. Schreibcr's principal recommendation was ' that the deijartment be authorized
to employ a competent bridge engineer to examine from time to time the detail draw-
ings of each part of the bridge as prepared, and to approve of or correct them as to
him may seem necessary, submitting them for final acceptance to the chief engineer
of Railways and Canals.' In other words, it was his intention to place the final
control of the bridge construction in the hands of a specially chosen bridge expert,
who would be an employee of the department, and who would report directly to the
deputy minister. As soon as the order in council was passed, inquiry was commenced
for a suitable engineer.
The policy of Mr. Schreibcr was not in accordance with the wishes of the Quebec
Bridge Company and its associates — (see letters. Hoare to Cooper, July 1, 1903
(Exhibit 701); Tarent to Fitzpatriek, June 29, 1903 (Exhibit TOT); Fitzpatrick to
Parent, July 18, 1903 (Exhibit 73 C) — and as soon as Mr. Cooper fully understood
the deputy minister's plans he protested vigorously. His position is very clearly set
forth in the following letter: —
Xew York, July 31, 1903.
Dear Mr. Hoare, — I am in receipt of papers from Mr. Schreiber which surprise
me. He is to select an engineer in New York who will examine from time to time
the plans, approve or correct the same as to him may seem necessary, &c.
This puts me in the position of a subordinate, which I cannot accept.
It does not relieve the situation a bit. Such an engineer must either be given
liberty to do what he thinks best or he must have the very instructions which I have
sought, stating to what extent there may be modifications from the general specifica-
tions, if any are to be allowed.
In either case he becomes the engineer in whom trust and confidence are reposed.
It seems to me a very simple matter for the chief engineer of Railways and
Canals to decide that the ' original specifications must be rigidly carried out,' or ' that
certain modifications are approved,' or ' that the company has i^erfect liberty to carry
out the work to the best advantage, provided the efficiency of the original contract be
not reduced.' I would then know where I stand.
I have written to Mr. Schreiber that I do not see how such an engineer could
facilitate the progress of the work or allow me to take any responsible steps inde-
pendently of his consent.
Yours truly,
THEODORE COOPER.
On July 30, 1903, Mr. Cooper wrote to Mr. Deans, advising him of Mr. Schreiber's
programme, and Mr. Deans intervened actively. The following letters show very
clearly that the Phrenix Bridge Company heartily supported Mr. Cooper in his conten-
tion, and that the Quebec Bridge Company was in full sympathy with their views: —
(Exhibit Xo. 7i W.)
July 31, 1903.
E. A. Hoare. Esq..
Chief Engineer, Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Canada.
De.\r Mr. Hoare,^I was greatly exercised this morning upon receiving a letter
from Mr. Cooper under ' date of July 30, stating that he had received from Mr.
44 EOTAL COilillSSIOy O^f COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Schreiber copy of the ' order in council,' and also a letter from Air. Schreiber. In
this letter ilr. Schreiber states he has asked for authority to employ a competent
bridge engineer to examine from time to time the detail drawings of each part of the
bridge as prepared and to approve of or correct them as to him may seem necessary,
submitting these for final acceptance to the chief engineer of Railways and Canals.
Mr. Schreiber further says, ' I have not yet named an engineer in New York to
consult with you, but will do so without unnecessary delay, and in the meantime I
think you may safely go to work on the plans.'
The seriousness of this action I have not the least doubt you will appreciate
immediately. It leaves the entire matter ' up in the air,' and much worse than the
condition we were all trying to avoid^which was to save most important time, and
that when Cooper once approved our designs and details it would be final and accepted
by the department. This is why I understand you secured the ' order in council.'
It practically brings all matters to a standstill, as neither Mr. Cooper or ourselves
would know where we stand until this new hand could be consulted with, and even
then we would only know as each plan was passed upon.
I cannot impress upon you too strongly the necessity of taking immediate action
to stop any such plan as suggested by Mr. Schreiber.
When you consider that the entire feeling and action of Mr. Cooper's was to save
the Quebec Bridge Company needless expense, without the least sacrifice in the
design or efiiciency of the structure, it has certainly proven a thankless task for all
concerned, and unless this present action upon Mr. Schreiber's part is immediately
stopped the entire business will be in a worse condition than if it had been let entirely
alone.
I am trying to reach you by 'phone, as I appreciate the necessity of immediate
action.
Yours truly,
JXO. STERLIXG DEANS,
Chief Engineer.
(Exhibit 70 L.)
(Letterhead of Phcenix Bridge Company.)
Phcexixville, Pa., July 31, 1903.
Theodore Cooper, Esq.,
Consulting Engineer,
35 Broadway, New York, N.Y.
De.\r Mr. Cooper, — To say that I was surprised by the contents of your letter of
July 30 is putting it mildly. I am trying to reach Mr. Hoare by 'phone. In addi-
tion, I have wired him, and have also written a strong letter expressing my feeling
in the matter.
The suggested action by Mr. Schreiber would place the business in a much worse
condition than it was originally in. The ' order in council ' was taken solely to save
time and to have your approval of our details final and binding on the government —
it simply being necessary to have Mr. Schreiber's signature as a matter of form. It
has certainly proven to be a thankless task so far, in trying to save the Quebec Bridge
Company a large amount of money, without in the least affecting the efiiciency of the
structure.
We of course ngre<! with you that we are at a standstill until this matter is
settled, as certainly the matter of a new engineer is an uncertain quantity at present.
I cannot but believe that a trip to Quebec by yourself and myself would tend to
clear the situation.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engineer.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 45
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
(Exhibit No. 70 M.)
(Letterhead of Pha?nix Bridge Company.)
Phcenixville, P.\., August 1, 1903.
Mr. TiiEO. Cooper, C.E.,
35 Broadway, New York, N.Y.
Dear Mr. Cooper, — I talked with ilr. Hoare over the 'phone yesterday (the
ser%'ice was not very satisfactory), and also wired him two long messages, and have
received his reply, stating that ' he will take up the question with parties at Ottawa,
and that we should go ahead, and if anything turns up to cause trouble tell Cooper to
let me know at once.' I have written him again, and urged him to stop entirely this
proposed plan, and explaining that the sole purpose of the order in council was to
give you the final authority to settle all details, the government approval being a
mere formality, and in this way save time which was so valuable. I personally think
it would have been much better to have had Douglas as originally proposed rather
than to have the present plan carried out; but we must insist upon having the whole
matter stopped.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engineer.
(Exhibit No. 80 P.)
(Telegram.) August 3, 1903.
E. A. Hoare, Chief Engineer,
Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Canada.
I found Cooper had written and wired you, and feels much more strongly than
I do the serious result of any such action. It would be disastrous to have proposed
appointment finally made. You and I should see Schreiber in Ottawa at once, and
come to some better understanding. As it now stands nothing can be done on plans.
Answer to Phoenixville.
JNO. STEELING DEANS.
Mr. Cooper went to Ottawa and discussed the situation with Mr. Schreiber, who,
as a result of this conference, made a further recommendation to the minister under
date of August 13, 1903 (Exhibit 65). This recommendation is embodied in the
order in council passed on August 15, 1903 (Exhibit 18).
The text of this order in council is as follows : —
Extract from a report of a committee of the Honourable the Privy Council, approved
by His Excellency on the 15th August, 1903.
On a memorandum dated August 13, 1903, from the Minister of Railways and
Canals, representing that by an order in council of July 21, 1903, authority was
given, in accordance with a suggestion made by the chief engineer of the Department
of Railways and Canals, for the employment of a competent bridge engineer to
examine from time to time detail drawings of the superstructure of the bridge across
the River St. Lawrence, near Quebec, now in course of construction, in view of certain
modifications suggested by the consulting engineer of the Bridge Company; the said
plans to be submitted for final acceptance to the chief engineer of the Department
of Railways and Canals.
The minister further represents that the chief engineer has this day reported,
stating that, as the result of the personal interview had with the company's consult-
46 EOTAL COMMIS.-ilOX OX COLLAPSE OF QVEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ing engineer, he would advise that, provided the efficiency of the structure be fully-
maintained up to that defined in the original specifications attached to the company's
contract, the new loadings proposed by their consulting engineer be accepted; all
detail parts of the structure to be, however, as efficient for their particular function
as the main members for theirs, the efficiency of all such details to be determined by
the principles governing the best modern practice, and by the experience gained
through actual test; all plans to be submitted to the chief engineer, and until his
approval has been given not to be adopted for the work.
The minister recommends that authority be given for following the course so
advised by the chief engineer, the order in council of July 21 last to be modified
accordingly.
The committee submit the same for approval.
JOHX J. McGEE,
Clerh of the Privy Council.
Mr. Cooper's interpretation of the order in council of August 15 was that it gave
him an absolutely free hand, provided efficiency was maintained up to the standard
of the specifications attached to the subsidy contract.
Necessarily throughout the development of the design of the structure cases would
arise when further modifications of the written specifications would appear desirable.
Such eases did arise, and were met from time to time by Mr. Cooper. In such cases he
proceeded according to his interpretation of the order in council, and did not submit
further opinions to the government engineers for approval.
In this connection, Mr. Schreiber differs from Mr. Cooper, as the following
extract from his evidence shows : —
Q. Considering the relation of Mr. Cooper to the Quebec Bridge and Railway
Company, and your opinion of Mr. Cooper's ability, and the relation of the govern-
ment with the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company, would you consider that Mr.
Cooper would have the power or authority to amend the specifications for the work
from time to time as he might consider necessary or desirable, and would those
amendments be tacitly accepted by all parties concerned ?
A. (Mr. Schreiber'). — Xo, I think not. They would have to be submitted to me,
and they would come before our bridge engineer — before the bridge engineer of the
Department of Railways and Canals — before they would be accepted.
Q. So that, unless we can find a formal acceptance of the changes or alterations
made in the specifications we would have to consider them as tmauthorized ?
A. (Mr. Schreiber). — Certainly.
There is, however, no evidence to show that ilr. Schreiber even questioned any
decision made by Mr. Cooper or in any way interfered with him. We consider that
in this Mr. Cooper was acting, as he believed, in the best interests of the work.
A copy of the order in council was sent to the Pha-nix Bridge Company, so they
were aware of its conditions, one of which was: ' all plans to be submitted to the chief
engineer (Mr. Schreiber), and until his approval has been given not to be adopted for
the work.' This condition also was embodied in explicit form in the contract between
the Phoenix Bridge Company and the Quebec Bridge Compan.y, and yet, the engineer
of the Phoenix Bridge Company when asked, ' Did yo>i consider the approval of the
plans by the Department of Kailwa.vs and Canals a condition precedent to the fabrica-
tion of the bridge,' answered, ' No.'
The specifications thus officially amendeil by aiithority of order in council were
transmitted to the Phoenix Bridge Company. When asked, ' Did you fully concur in
all the amendments made in the si)ecifications, having in mind that .vou were endea-
vouring to produce the best possible bridge,' Mr. Szlapka, the designing engineer of
the Phopnix Bridge Company, answered. ' The amendments made in the s]-iecifi''ations
by Mr. Cooper were not subject to my approval.'
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIOXERS 47
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
The action of Mr. Schrciber at this time and subseqviently can only be explained
on the assumption that he considered the order in council of August 15, 1903, to be
a direction to him to place the responsibility for the building of the bridge entirely
in !Mr. Cooper's hands. Mr. Cooper's amendments were according to Mr. Douglas'
evidence, accepted and used by the department in subsequent examinations of plans
(see Evidence), and Mr. Coo]xt's signature vi-as considered by the department prac-
tically as a final warrant of the sufKciency of the plans (see Evidence).
That the proceedings of the department were irregular, and that Mr. Cooper was
assuming a degree of authority not in keeeping with the wording of the order in
council of August 15, 1903, was clear to the Quebec Bridge Company, as the following
letter shows: —
(Exhibit No. 81 C.)
(Letterhead, Quebec Bridge and Railway Company.)
J. S. De.\ns, Esq.,
Chief Engineer. Phoenix Bridge Company,
PhiTn'xville, Pa.
Quebec, May 27, 1907.
Dear Sir. — In reply to your letter of the 24th inst., I am aware that you are
doing everything that is possible to hasten the forwarding of the plans for approval
by the government, except that much time might have been saved if Mr. Cooper had
signed the tracings instead of having to sign so many blue prints.
The signature of the consulting engineer does not comply with the government
regulations. The order in council passed some years ago only authorized certain
modifications in the specification and details from time to time, if found necessary.
The obligations under contracts, with the company and the government still remain-
ing, viz.. that no work is to be proceeded with or estimates paid until the final plans
have been passed through the various stages required by the government in the Depart-
ment of Railways and Canals. This is the point they are objecting to. Understand
that it is not myself that is raising any question, but I am only endeavouring to
bring you in line with the contracts. The government has passed no order in council
cancelling your obligation to have all your plans approved at Ottawa before any metal
is fabricated. We are under very close investigation now.
Yours truly,
E. A. HOARE.
It should be stated that the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company was through-
out fully advised of what was being done at New York and Phccnixville, and did not
make any objection to the authority assumed by Mr. Cooper or to the acceptance of
that authority by the Phcenix Bridge Company, notwithstanding provision to the
contrary existing in the contract. This letter also indicates a more active supervision
on the part of the government than had previously been exercised.
The Phoenix Bridge Company was immediately advised of the terms of the order
in council of August 15, 1903 (see lett-er. Cooper to Hoare. August 21, 1903), but
being fully aware of the arguments and influences that had brought about the enact-
ment of that order, they concluded that it was intended to grant exactly what Hon.
S. N. Parent had asked for in his letter of June 29, 1903 (Exliibit 70 J).
Mr. Deans and Mr. Szlapka in their evidence (see Evidlence) make it very
clear that they considered Mr. Cooper's pronouncements final, and not liable to altera-
tion either by the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company or by the Dominion Govern-
ment.
In the opinion of the commission it is always desirable, when an entirely novel
problem is to be solved, to have the advice of several engineers upon the unproven
48 ROYAL COMMISSION OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
features of the design before attempting to execute it. Having accepted the govern-
ment's decision to depend upon the advice of only one man, the authorities thereafter
acted in accordance with the best knowledge of the time; and the most competent
engineers would have endorsed the concentration of responsibility upon the most
experienced and able man.
In effect, after August 15, 1903, instructions given by Mr. Theodore Cooper from
time to time were the specifications. In the offices of the Phoenix Bridge Company
and in the works of the Phoenix Iron Company the Hoare specifications as amended
by Hr. Cooper were recognized as official and were so used (see Evidente^
and exhibits 99, 100, 101 and 102). It was recognized by these companies that Mr.
Cooper had authority to alter any requirements of the specifications, and it is in
evidence that this authority was not infrequently exercised.
HEXnT HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERET,
J. GALBRAITH.
APPENDIX No. 7.
A DESCKIPTIOX OF THE ORGANIZATIONS AND STAFFS MAIN-
TAINED BY THE DIFFERENT CORPORATIONS INTERESTED
IN THE ERECTION OF THE BRIDGE.
There were four parties directly interested in the building of the bridge, viz.:
The Canadian Government, the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company, the Phoenix
Bridge Company and the Phoenix Iron Company. Each had its own staff to take
charge of the portions of the work in which it was interested.
The commissioners made the personal acquaintance of all the senior officials
concerned, ana discussed with each of them the duties he was called upon to perform.
Evidence has been secured giving the previous experience of these men, their fitness
for their several positions, and their duties.
The Dominion government was represented by the deputy minister of the Depart-
ment of Railways and Canals and his assistants; two deputy ministers and three
inspectors having been connected with the work.
The government's interests are set forth clearly in the Subsidy Agreement of
November 12, 1900 (Exhibit 12) and in the Guarantee Act of 1903 (Exhibit 1). and
throughout the work the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company recognized its obliga-
tions to the government by requiring its contractors to do their work in such a
manner that it would be acceptable to the government.
Although the deputy minister of the department was charged with the duty of
examining the phui.s and specifications, all of which were subject to his approval,
checking up the monthly estimates which were the basis for payments, and exercis-
ing general oversight of the work up to the time of its final acceptance, in reality the
whole responsibility for specifications, plans and construction was upon the officials
of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company, its interests being identical with those
of the government, Mr. Cooper's special qualifications having been officially recog-
nized in the orders in council of July 21 and August 15, 1903 (see Evidence).
REPORT OF THE COUMISSrONERS 4*
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
The issue at the time previous to the passing of the order in council of August
15 referred to. was whether Mr. Cooper's approvals were to be subject to cancellation
on the advice of an expert engineer employed by the department or not. By the
order in council of Augiist 15, 1903, the government practically decided that Mr.
Cooper's decisions were to he final, and neither Mr. Schreiber nor his successor, Mr.
Butler, at any time, interfered with his control of the technical features of the under-
taking. Mr. Cooper's understanding of the situation was the same, and this indicates
clearly both the government's position and that of Mr. Cooper on this question.
The Quebec Bridge and Railway Company maintained in its service and employed
on the work a chief engineer, a consulting engineer, two erection inspectors and four
mill and shop inspectors. The chief engineer, Mr. E. A. Hoare, M. Inst. C.E., had
an extensive experience as a railway engineer, and had done most of the company's
preliminary work. The record of his professional experience will be found in fuU
in his evidence (see Evidence). Mr. Hoare had a high reputation for integrity,
good judgment and devotion to duty. From the standpoints of personal character
and knowledge of Quebec and its people, no better man could have been found, and
the evidence throughout shows that to the best of his ability the company was faith-
fully served. There is, however, nothing in Mr. Hoare's record that would indicate
that he had the technical knowledge to direct the work in all of its branches.
The company's directors do not seem to have realized the importance of the duties
pertaining to ilr. Hoarers position and (see Parent to Holgate, January 11, 1908),
•whie believing that he was not competent to control the work, they still gave
him the position, the powers and emoluments of the office of chief engineer.
While we can only consider this as a mistake on the part of the Quebec Bridge
and Railway Company, yet we regret to say that such appointments are by no means
uncommon, and it must be recognized that in many cases good executive ability is
valued more highly or considered of more importance than special professional knowl-
edge.
Mr. Hoare personally considered that he was in general control of the construc-
tion, and that everything was under his jurisdiction except the approval of plans;
the evidence shows that he gave much personal time to the oversight of the fabrica-
tion of the material, to inspection of the erection and the preparation of the esti-
mates ; it also shows that he lacked a comprehensive grasp of the work that was being
done by the inspectors, and that although his subordinates entertained the highest
personal regard for him they did not look to him for advice when technical difficulties
arose.
Mr. Theodore Cooper, of Xew York, was the consulting engineer. In the extent
of his experience and in reputation for integrity, professional judgment and acumen,
Mr. Cooper had few equals on this continent, and his apiwintment would have been
generally approved. Mr. Cooper's strict duties were to examine, correct and approve
the plans prepared by the contractors, and to give engineering advice to Mr. Hoare
when requested. Mr. Cooper and his chief assistant, Mr. Bernt Berger, carried on a
most thorough and painstaking examination of the plans. Mr. Cooper appointed both
shop and erection inspectors for reasons explained in his evidence, and had these
inspectors report fully and regularly to him. Mr. Cooper states that he greatly desired
to build this bridge as his final work, and he gave it careful attention. His profes-
sional standing was so high that his appointment left no fiirther anxiety about the
outcome in the minds of all most closely concerned. As the event proved, his connec-
tion with the work produced in general a false feeling of security. His approval of
any plan was considered by every one to be final, and he has accepted absolute
responsibility for the two great engineering changes that were made during the
progress of the work — the lengthening of the main span and the changes in the
specification and the adopted unit stresses. In considering Mr. Cooper's part in this
undertaking, it should be remembered that he was an elderly man, rapidly approach-
15-t — vol. i. — 4
50 ROYAL COMMISSIOS OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
ing seventy, and of such infirm health that he was only rarely permitted to leave New
York.
Mr. Cooper assumed a position of great responsibility, and agreed to accept an
inadequate salary for his services. No provision was made by the Quebec Bridge
Company for a staff to assist him, nor is there any evidence to show that he asked
for the appointment of such a stafi. He endeavoured to maintain the necessary
assistants out of his own salary, which was itself too small for his personal services,
and he did a great deal of detail work which could have been satisfactorily done by a
junior. The result of this was that he had no time to investigate the soundness of
the data and theories which were being used in the designing, and consequently
allowed fundamental errors to pass by him unchallenged. The detection and correc-
tion of these fundamental errors is a distinctive duty of the consulting engineer, and
we are compelled to recognize that in undertaking to do his work without sufficient
staff or sufficient remuneration both he and his employers are to blame, but it lay
with himself to demand that these matters be remedied.
During the construction of the substructure, Mr. Cooper visited the bridge site on
several occasions, but did not visit the bridge during the erection of the super-
structure. He visited the Phoenix Iron Company's shops but three times during the
fabrication of the structure.
During erection, Mr. Cooper, upon receipt of information from Mr. McLure,
ordered certain work on the erection to be stopped for correction. This order was
communicated by him to Mr. Hoare, who stopped the work accordingly.
In the sense that the inspectors looked to Mr. Cooper for advice and directions
almost entirely and that he appointed them and issued instructions to them, and also
that he dealt directly with the contractors, he assumed many of the duties of a chief
engineer. Owing to the special nature of the work, he was the only one in the employ-
ment of the Quebec Bridge Company who was capable of assuming these duties. He
was not authorized to act in this capacity, nor was he able to visit the bridge during
its erection.
Norman E. McLure was an inspector assisting Mr. Edwards in the shops up to
the beginning of the erection, when he acted as inspector of erection, being employed
during the winter as an inspector in the shops. He was appointed by Mr. Cooper
with Mr. Hoare's concurrence. He was responsible to both Mr. Cooper and Mr.
Hoare, and 'received instructions from both, but reported to Mr. Hoare principally
upon matters regarding monthly estimates, and to Mr. Cooper upon matters of con-
struction. Mr. McLure had definite instructions in writing as to duties fi'om Mr.
Cooper (see Evidence), bitt had none from Mr. Hoare. Mr. IMcLure is a technical
man, a graduate of Princeton University (1904), and previous to tli^e Queliee
bridge work was inspector of bridges for the New York, Ontario and Western Rail-
way, and in so far as his exjterience fitted him, performed his duties well and is a
painstaking and capable engineer. He had not full authority on the work, and
depended on !Mr. Cooper for all technical advice and instructions.
We are at a loss to imdorstand why ^fr. Cooper under the circumstances did not
place a more experienced man in full local charge of the inspection of erection. We
must recognize, however, that the power of making such an appointment did not rest
with Mr. Cooper, and that Mr. Hoare has stated in evidence his conviction of his own
ability to handle the work.
l[r. E. E. Kinloch acted as inspector of workmanship throughout erection, having
been appointed by Mr. Hoare and was responsible to him. Mr. Kinloch's experience
on bridge work as given in his evidence shows that while without technical training
he had been connected with the building of several heavy structures, and was thor-
oughly capable of handling ordinary bridge erection. His duties were to watch the
structure closely, and to see that the erection work, and particularly the riveting, were
properly done and in accordance with the instructions issued by the Phoenix Bridge
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 51
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Company. While the Phcenix Bridge Company did not recognize his authority, they
co-operated cordially with him to the common end of endeavouring to obtain good
■work. Mr. McLure and Mr. Kinloch worked independently, but all Mr. Kinloch's
observations and criticisms were reported to Mr. ilcLure, and these have added a
great deal to the value of the records. Mr. Kinloch was thoroughly at home in his
work, and executed his duties carefully and intelligently. He appears from the'
evidence to have been a keen observer and fully impressed with the importance of his
duties. We are, however, convinced that the bridge was too large for one man to
thoroughly cover in detail all the work that was entrusted to Mr. Kinloch, and that
there should have been more inspectors of equal ability.
Mr. E. L. Edwards was chief inspector of shop work, and was appointed by Mr.
Cooper with the approval of Mr. Hoare. He reported to both Mr. Cooper and Mr.
Hoare. The circumstances of his appointment are stated by Mr. Cooper in his
evidence, and Mr. Edwards' experience as an inspector is given in full in his own
evidence. His duties were to see that the metal supplied by the rolling mills came
fully up to the requirements of the specifications and that it was properly tested ; he
sent the test reports regularly to Mr. Hoare, and visited Mr. Cooper for instructions
every month or when anything irregular happened. He had also to see that the
finished members corresponded in dimensions exactly with the approved plans, and
that the methods of fabrication that were used were in each case most accurate and
satisfactory.
The test records and the list of shop errors detected by the inspectors are evidence
as to how Mr. Edwards performed his duties.
Mr. I. W. Meeser was Mr. Edwards' assistant, and his inspection was more
particularly directed to the shopwork. He had ample exi)erience in shopwork, having
been trained as a machinist, and was at one time subforeman in the shops of the
Phoenix Iron Company. The commissioners satisfied themselves during their visit to
,Phoenixville that both Mr. Edwards and Mr. Meeser thoroughly understood the work
they had undertaken. The commissioners are not, however, satisfied that the shop
inspection as arranged for by the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company would have
been as thorough as it was if it had not been aided throtighout by the hearty co-opera-
tion of the officials of the Phoenix Bridge Company and of the Phcenix Iron Company.
The stafi was too small; and it is our opinion that the Quebec Bridge Company
would have shown better judgment had it employed a larger staff under the direction
of an independent man of wider technical knowledge and who would have been suffi-
ciently forceful to hold his own against the contractors.
Messrs. Keenan and Ostrom acted as inspectors in the rolling mills at Harrign
burg and Pittsburg, respectively. There is no evidence of any serious defect in the
metal supplied by these establishments, and it may be concluded that the inspection
was thorough and creditable.
As a whole the staflF was inefficient and not well organized. The excellence of
the work done must be largely attributed to the ambition of the constructors to do the
work to the very best of their ability; the organization was weak in the absence of a
fully competent engineer of erection and of a forceful chief of staff for the inspection
of shopwork.
The officials of the Phcenix Bridge Company most closely connected with the
Quebec bridge were the chief engineer, the designing engineer, the engineer in charg&
of details, the shop inspector, the superintendent of erection, the erection foreman,,
the resident engineer of surveys, and the resident engineer on erection.
The chief engineer was Mr. Deans, who has occupied this position for many years,
and is widely and favourably known as an experienced bridge builder. Mr. Deans'
personal duties are the general oversight of all work being executed by his company.
He may be fairly described as its chief business manager, and as such conducted all
the negotiations leading up to the Quebec bridge contracts. Prom the nature of hia
154^vol. i— 4J
S2 ROYAL COilUISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
work it is not possible for him to be closely in touch with the planning and execution
of technical details; these were in the direct charge of his two principal assistants,
Mr. Szlapka and Mr. Milliken, acting under his general instructions. Mr. Deans was
very active in the performance of his duties, kept closely in touch with the progress
of the work in all departments and generally managed the execution of the contract.
Mr. Deans' actions in the month of August, 1907, and his judgment, as shown by
the correspondence and evidence, were lacking in caution, and show a failure to
appreciate emergencies that arose.
The designing engineer was Mr. Szlapka, who had received a thorough technical
education in Germany, and has been with the Phoenix Bridge Company for about
twenty-seven years, having held his present position for twenty-one years. A list of
the more important structures that have been built by this company to Mr. Szlapka's
designs will be found in the evidence, and shows that previous to 1903 his ability
as a designer had been thoroughly tried, and that his exp^frience was wide.
As usual in present bridge company organizations, Mr. Szlapka's work has been
confined to his own department and his personal knowledge of the work of transporta-
tion and erection is limited. The evidence shows that Mr. Cooper, whose faculty of
direct and unsparing criticism is well known, had every confidence in the ability of
Mr. Szlapka, and on previous works had had good opportunity to form his estimate
of him. Mr. Szlapka was responsible for the entire work of designing, and the com-
missioners are satisfied from their personal investigations at Phcenixville that this
■was conducted with care and energy. Mr. Szlapka's mistakes and errors, to which
the disaster is directly attributed by the commissioners, are discussed elsewhere.
The engineer in charge of details was Mr. Charles Scheidl. Mr. Scheidl had
received a technical education in Germany, and has been with the Phcenix Bridge
Company for twenty-four years, during eighteen of which he has held his present
position. His work in connection with the Quebec bridge is clearly and fully set
forth in his evidence, and, briefly stated, consisted of prejjaring the shop drawings
from the general outlines of design that had been determined by Mr. Szlapka. The
accuracy with which this work was done is proved by the records of the shop inspec-
tors and of the erectors, and was of the highest grade. Upon Mr. Scheidl was laid
the burden of being personally responsible for the accuracy of every one of the shop
drawings.
Mr. E. T. Morris was shop inspector for the Phcenix Bridge Company, his posi-
tion being a permanent one. His duties were similar to those of Messrs. Edwards
and Meeser, and his employment practically provided for an additional inspection of
the work in the shop. He reported to Mr. Deans and Mr. Szlapka, and kept a record
of all errors detected and of the methods adopted for their correction. An examina-
tion of the ■ field corrections ' reported by the resident engineer of erection will show
how thoroughly this shop inspection was done, and by comparison of the records we
find that the work of Mr. Morris was even more thorough and exact than that of
Messrs. Edwards and !Meeser. It is proper to credit the thoroughness with which this
work was performed not solely to Mr. Morris but also to Messrs. W. H. Reeves, Deans
and Norris, whose emphatic instructions concerning inspection he had received.
Mr. A. B. Milliken was superintendent of erection, having general jurisdiction
over the handling of all the contracts of the company after the material was delivered
to it by the Phoenix Iron Company. He has occupied his present position for about
seventeen years. A list of the most important structures that he has erected is given
in hris evidence. Mr. -Milliken did not confine his attention to the Quebec bridge
work, but had the execution of several other contracts to !ook after at the same time.
The evi<lcneo sho^ws that he spent niucli time at the site, and was always closely in
touch with work. The system of ivports of progress established in has department
was very thorough.
Mr. Milliken reported to Mr. Deans, and when on the work did not interfere with
the jurisdiction of Mr. Yenser, who was in charge, but simply advised him. His work
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 53
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
throughout appears to have been thoroug-hly and carefully done. The system of erec-
tion was jointly designed by the engineering and erection departments of the Phoenix
Bridge Company, the details of the members, their connections, the travellers and the
general order of erection being determined by the engineers, and the equipment of
plant and tackle by the erection department. Mr. Milliken appointed Mr. Yenser as
foreman on the Quebec bridge.
Mr. B. A. Yenser was Mr. Milliken's subordinate in charge of erection, and was
in .Tlisolute local authority. He had been a bridge erector for many years, and had
worked for the Phoenix Bridge Company for about fifteen years. In Mr. Deans'
evidence will be found a statement of the more important structures erected by
Mr. Yenser, and that gentleman is described as 'having shown unusual qualidies
as an erector, being careful and conscientious, and having had experience in the
handling of men.' It should be noted that Mr. Yenser had absolutely no authority to
vary the programme of erection, which was arranged in Phcenixville and furnished to
him in a book of instructions with accompanying plans. His position was largely an
executive one, his duties being to carry out positive instructions and to see that tha
forces employed were worked to their full efficiency. He had orders to exercise extra-
ordinary care in the inspection of the tackle and all handling appliances. Mr. Yenser
had no technical training, and his position did not call for it. His action in continu-
ing erection on August 28, 1907, was immediately referred to his engineering superiors
and was approved. The evidence shows that he was an able and forceful superin-
tendent, and that he went to his death with supreme confidence in the judgment of
his superiors at Phcenixville.
Mr. A. H. Birks, the resident engineer of erection, who also perished in the
disaster, had complete confidence in the ability and efficiency of the Phoenix Bridge
Company's designers, whose abilities he had had ample opportunity to observe. The
personality of Mr. Birks is described, and his record in the jjerformance of
his duties is stated in Mr. Deans' testimony. It will be there noted thiat Mr.
Birks' experience wa.s rather limited. He had receiver! a thorough training in
the design of the erection plant. His duties were to inspect the material as it arrived
on the bridge for erection, to see that it was properly placed, and to watch the erectors
to see that the programme of erection as laid down in the Phcenixville written instruc-
tions was minutely followed. The evidence shows that these duties were performed
with intelligence and fidelity. Mr. Birks prepared all technical reports for trans-
mission to Phcenixville, and advised Mr. Yenser on matters calling for engineering
knowledge.
Mr. F. A. Cudworth was resident engineer in charge of surveys. No question
of importance affecting Mr. Cudworth's work has come up in the progress of this
inquiry, and it is sufficient to say that his duties were faithfully and ably attended to.
The Phcenixville office depended upon him principally for reports of the movements
of the various parts of the truss as the erection proceeded, and his observations are
matters of record.
In general, it may be said that this staff was highly efficient, the men were well
trained, and had ample experience in the class of work that they were called upon to
do, and there is throughout evidence of great pride in their individual connection
with the imdertaking and of determination to do their utmost to make it a success in
every way. The commissioners are of opinion, however, that the Phoenix Bridge
Company erred in judgment and showed a failure to appreciate the magnitude and
difficulties of the work that it had undertaken when it did not provide as part of this
organization an engineer of erection who, by virtue of technical training and long
experience on large bridge work, was fitted to take complete local control of the erec-
tion. In this they followed usual practice, which, however, was not applicable to this
particular work.
The manager for the Phoenix Iron Company was Mr. Norris, who has been
prominently connected with the company since 1898, qnd who became manager in
54 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
in 1900. Under his management the works of the company have been altered and
enlarged and the output materially increased. Mr. Norris' endeavour to secure thor-
oughly good material and good workmanship for the Quebec bridge is set forth at
length in his testimony, and his conduct of the work throughout is, in the opinion
of the commissioners, commendable for its carefulness, thoroughness and energy.
The commissioners are of opinion that the works of the Phoenix Iron Company
are efficiently managed and operated.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
REPORT OF THE COIIMISSIONERS
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
55
66 ROYAL COMUISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX No. 8.
A HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLANS AND OF THE
METHODS FOLLOWED IN THE DESIGNING OFFICE.
The first preliminary plan of the Quebec bridge was made by the Phoenix Bridge
Company for the Quebec Bridge Company, and is dated November 30, 189Y (Exhibit
94). A second plan was made December 7, 1897 (Exhibit 95), showing the lower
chord curved. In response to our inquiry Mr. Szlapka states that the change from
the straight to the curved lower chord was made for the sake of artistic appearance,
either form being considered by him structurally satisfactory.
There are three other plans dated February 17, 1899, two of which show the lower
chord of the anchor arm arched at both ends, and the other shows the anchor arm)
arched only at the main pier. In general outline this last plan was almost identical
with that of the final design.
All of these five general prelipiinary plans are drawn for a river span of 1,600
feet. The plan of November 30, 1897, shows the cross-section of the river correctly,
which indicates that information of this nature had been received from the Quebec
Bridge Company prior to that date.
The plan made by the Phoenix Bridge Company and dated December 7, 18971
(Exhibit 95), is identical as to bridge outline with the plan dated January 13, 1898,
and filed in the Department of Railways and Canals by the Quebec Bridge Company
(Exhibit 3).
The plan which accompanied the tender of March 31, 1899 (Exhibit 96), was one
of the three plans dated February 17, 1899. This design and others of the same date,
some of which were competitive designs, are shown on drawing No. 33.
Two plans were made by the Phoenix Bridge Company, both dated April 22,
1900. Both of these show the anchor arm with a complete arch in the lower chord,
but the river span is 1,723 feet, and in the other 1,800 feet. These plans were made
subsequent to the awarding of the contract for the bridge on April 12, 1900, but
before Mr. Cooper had advised the adoption of the 1,800-foot span. Another general
plan was made dated May 6, 1900, showing the bridge generally as it was intended to
be built. A further plan was made by the Phoenix Bridge Company, dated October
6, 1900, similar to the last mentioned plan, but with the title of the ' Quebec Bridge
Company,' and on April 14, 1901, a further and last preliminary general plan was
made by the Phcenix Bridge Company, which is practically the same as the former
plan and bears the same outline as the constructed bridge. All these preliminary
plans were made by the Phoenix Bridge Company.
On April 12, 1900, the contract embracing the anchorage steel work was signed.
The plans for this work were developed in the regular course, and the work was done
accordingly. In this agreement the Phoenix Bridge Company were awarded the
contract for all the steelwork of the whole structure, and agreed to proceed with detail
plans. On December 19, 1900, the contract for the two approach spans was signed.
The plans for this work were developed in the regular course, and the work was
finished in due course.
While the approach spaits were simple trus-; spans of usual design for such
Structures, and complete in themselves, the anchorages for the cantilever bridge
involved calculations of the main structure, in order that the uplift could be deter-
mined. Such calculations as were necessary to ascertain this were made on assumed
REPORT OF THE COHUISSIONERS SI
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
data. The work was ordered June 15, 1900, and forthwith designed and conBtnicted
with ' a liberal allowance for increase of uplift,' as the exact uplift could not be ascer-
tained, the weight of the structure itself not being then known and only approximately
estimated.
A general study of the details of the bridge was made by Mr. Scheidl during the
months of January, February and March, 1902. This study involved the eonsidcfra-
tion of the outlines of the bridge and of the general stress sheets which had been
prepared. The method of connecting the suspended span to the cantilever arms, the
details of the shoes for the main posts, and the details of the anchorages were con-
sidered; the detailing of the panel points and intersections of the suspended span
were worked out; then followed the arrangement of the top chord packing for the
cantilever and anchor arms, the panel points and intersections, the main posts and
pedestals. These studies not being considered as other than tentative, the weights
were not computed at that time as a basis for new stress sheets. The real prelim-
inary work intended for final results was begun in July, 1903, after the receipt of the
revised specifications, the contract having been signed provisionally on June 19.
The following is an outline of these preliminary studies. First, the determina-
tion of the normal lengths of all the bridge members; then studies of all plate and
trussed floor beams and stringers; of transverse bracings, details of main shoes,
pedestals, connecting chords and bracing of same.
The packing of the eye bars was then taken up, then the details for anchorages
and the transfer of wind stresses and anchor piers. Then followed the detail of the
anchor arm panel points, commencing with the end lower chords; then the web inter-
sections. Similar studies were made for the cantilever arms and the suspended span.
When the details for the anchor arm were completed and those for the cantilevea:
arm partially completed, the weights of all details were calculated and final anchor
arm stress sheets computed. This was the beginning of the shop-drawing period;
only the anchoSr towers had then been shop detailed.
The dead load concentration upon which the final make-up of the members of the
anchor arm was based were as follows: —
Half suspended span 4,842,000 lbs.
Cantilever arm 13,205,200 "
Anchor arm 13,317,600 "
The corresponding concentrations as determined on June 25, 1907, were found to
bet-
Half suspended span 5,694,000 lbs.
Cantilever arm 15,804,000 "
Anchor arm 17,318,000 "
(See also drawing No. 3.) The total steel in these concentrations was about
35.316.000 Ihs.
The difference between these two sets of concentrations indicate a fundamental
error in the calculations for the bridge. In a properly computed bridge the assumed
dead load concentrations upon which the make-up of the members is based should
agree closely with the weight computed from the dimensions in the finished design
and with the actual weights (see clause 3 of the specifications, which provides : '3.
The dead weight used for calculating stresses must not be less than the actual weight
of structure when completed' ).
The error consists not so much in the assumed concentrations being incorrect,
for that is more or less unavoidable, but in the fact that a recomputation of weights
based upon the cross-sections already determined and with sufficient allowance for
doubtful details was not made, and the process of approximation continued until
satisfactory agreement was reached. In bridges of ordinary design and dimensions
58 ROTAL COilMISSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
experience has furnished data sufBcient to enable the designer to estimate the weight
so accurately that a recomputation is not always necessary. In this case, however,
the unique character of the design, the magnitude of the span and the high unit
stresses specified demanded that no risks should be taken by failing to adopt this
method of approximation and checking.
In computing the make-up of the members of the cantilever arm the same dead
load calculations were assumed for the cantilever arm and for the suspended span
as in the computations for the anchor arm, and the above comment will apply wittj
equal force to the design of the cantilever arm.
The failure to make the necessary recomputations can be attributed in part to
the pressure of work in the designing offices and to the confidence of ilr. Szlapka in
the correctness of his assumed dead load concentrations, itr. "Cooper shared thia
confidence, as he approved the stress sheets.
The dates of approval of the various stress sheets by Mr. Cooper are as follows: —
Suspended ^an, March 29, 1904.
Anchor arm, June 30, 1904.
Cantilever arm. May 25, 1905.
Mr. Cooper's examination with regard to the question will be found in the
evidence. Mn Cooper says: —
' In qomputing the dead load strains I was furnished by Mr. Szlapka with a
diagram, dated May 12, 1904, which gave the dead load concentrations for the anchor
and cantilever arms, Quebec bridge.
' These dead load concentratiions vary at every point. I asked Mr. Szlapka when
this was presented to me whether it was carefully and properly estimated. He states
that he had his best men to carefully estimate the weight at each point, and that this
was a correct arrangement of the final weight to the best of his belief. As I had no
other means of determining these weights, the plans not being yet submitted to me,
I assumed them to be correct, and used them in determining my strains. I did,
however, check these weights in the following manner : I added together all the
concentirated loacjings, deducted the allowance for floor and timber which he states
here especially, and found that the resultant weight was abundant to cover the
assumed estimated weight of the structure.'
Early in 1905 the drawings of the anchor arm were practically complete, and it
was possible to compute the weight of the anchor arm within say two per cent of the
actual weight. There is no evidence to show that this was done by the Phoenix
Bridge Company or by Mr. Cooper. Had such a computation been made at that time,
when but a small portion of the work had passed tlirough the shop, and erection had
not begun, the serious error of the assumed dead load would have been immediately
detected.
Shopwork began in July. 1904, and the record shows that at the end of December,
1904, eight panels of anchor arm lower chords had been completed ready for ship-
ment. The demands of the shop on the drawing office no doubt contributed to prevent
a recomputation of the stress sheets and the early discovery of the error.
Mr. Cooper did not become aware of the error until he received Mr. Edwards'
report on material of February 1, 1906. At this time, the anchor arm, tower and two
panels of the cantilever arm were fabricated, and six panels of the anchor arm were
in place. Realizing that there was no remedy, and believing that the increased
stresses were still within the limit of safety, Mr. Cooper permitted the work to pro-
ceed. He estimated that the increase in unit strains due to this error was from seven
to ten per cent.
No progressive record of computed weights was made and kept in the designing
offices for the purpose of checking the estimated concentrations used in th« stress
sheets, as will be seen from the following corresjtondenee with Mr. Deans: —
REPORT OF TBE COMMISSIONERS
59
Montreal, January 25, 1908.
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Messrs. the Phoenix Bridge Company,
Phoenixville, Pa.
Gentlemen, — I have been requested to ascertain from you the process of system
you used in the drawing office, whereby the weights were estimated and ascertained,
and what record of estimated and actual weights of parts was kept in the drawing
office. Was it your practice as soon as a drawing was completed to make an estimate
of the wciight of that part, and was this work done systematically so as to be of service
in checking the original calculations of the bridge, and were the weights estimated!
from the drawing of service to you in furnishing data for design ? If you can give
me a list of these actual weights, with the dates at which they were ascertained,
either from the estimate made from the drawing or from actual weight, whichever
was first, it would, I think, give the information desired.
I would be obliged to you for an early reply.
Truly yours,
HENRY HOLGATE.
Phcenixville, Pa., January 31. 1908.
Henrt Holgate, Esq.,
Chairman, Royal Commission,
Montreal, Canada.
Dear Sib, — Replying to your letter January 25.
When the shop drawings of the heaviest and largest pieces were partially
finished, sketches were prepared showing their approximate weights and extreme
dimensions. These sketches were sent to the transportation companies to secure
routing and method of loading. No weights were figured of any pieces of ordinary
dimensions, where no difficulty whatever was expected in loading. After the shop
drawings of the most important members were finished and approved by the consult-
ing engineer, then their weights were figured with care for comparison with the
shipping weights. No other record was kept in the drawing room outside of these
itemized weights on forging lists of the estimated and actual shipping weights.
Our shipping invoices give the actual weights, marks and dates of shipment of
all pieces in the bridge. We have no extra copy of these, but no doubt you could get
tile loan of Mr. Hoare's record.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engineer.
Before commencing the shop drawings a full understanding was arrived at
between the drawing office and the erection department regarding the positions of
field splices and other details which might afiect the erection. The large traveller was
designed after consultation between the two departments.
Before shop drawings could be made for the larger pieces, arrangements had to
be completed with the transportation companies. This involved the making of trans-
portation drawings for the purpose of avoiding all difficulties which might arise during
the transportation with regard to rolling stock, curves and bridges.
The exact dimensions of the various members had to be determined, so that under
normal loading the normal configuration should obtain. This involved the computa-
tion of all the alterations of lengths and of position in members from the first posi-
tion of the anchor arm lower chords on the false works to the final configuration of
the bridge when complete and sustaining its normal load.
69 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The methods of erection were fully considered in planning the details of the shop
drawings. All the work, including the preliminary detailing already described, was
under the charge of one assistant engineer, Mr. Chas. Scheidl. Each shop drawing,
when completed, was fully checked. Copies were then forwarded to the consulting
engineer for approval. When approved copies were returned to the Phcenix Bridge
Company, which sent copies to the chief engineer of the Quebec Bridge Company
to be forwarded to the Department of Eailways and Canals. The department returned
one approved copy to the Phcenix Bridge Company, and in accordance with the terms
of the contract, the receipt of the plans approved by the Department of Eailways and
Canals was the authority for the Phoenix Bridge Company to construct the work.
All shop drawings were executed in the best style of draughtsmanship, and gave
all necessary information for the shop and to some extent for the erection.
The most careful methods of checking were employed. At no time during the
progress of the office work were more than eighteen men employed. The rate of
progress depended upon the rate at which Mr. Scheidl could perform his work, and
would not have been hastened by the employment of a greater number of draughts-
men. (For fuller details see the evidence of Mr. Szlapka and Mr. Scheidl.)
The north and south halves of the bridge being identical, the members for each
were constructed from the same drawings simultaneously.
The annexed table shows that the drawings were sent to the shops as soon as the
approval of Mr. Cooper was obtained, and that the approval of the Department of
Railways and Canals, while necessary, was regarded as being purely formal.
REPORT OF THE COilillSSlONERS
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 15+
61
K
%
a
o
a
o
3
O
•c
03
(»
I
o
o
»
Completed
Ready for
Shipment.
1904.
1-19 October.
1-20 October.
1-27 October.
1-24 October.
L- 8 November.
1- 3 November.
1-12 November.
t-14 November.
1-25 November.
1-26 November.
1- 3 December.
1- 6 December.
1-13 December.
1-17 December.
1-24 December.
1-31 December.
1905.
1-12 January.
1-16 Juuuiiry.
1-18 January.
1-19 January.
o>
I
1904.
28 September...
1 October
22 October
28 October
17 November.. .
17 November...
3 December. . .
17 December. ..
31 December...
1905.
5 January
X
starting
of
Punching.
il
<
■0
19 September...
11 October
20 October
2 November.. .
10 November...
21 November...
4 December. . .
13 December. ..
28 December. . .
r-
Templetes
Completed.
1904.
1 September...
25 September. . .
5 October
U October
31 October
1 November...
14 November.. .
18 November...
25 November.. .
28 November...
o
Drawings
Received jn
Shops.
2 >
i
25 August
16 September. . .
26 September. . .
29 September. . .
4 October
17 October
24 October
28 October
7 November...
lO
Approved by
Dept. Rys. and
Canals.
il
U
O
October
November. . .
November. . .
November...
November...
2 November...
I November...
J November.. .
S December. . .
■*
S5 c3 " ^ N « ^
£
si
1 i
to H
o
29 August
22 September. . .
28 September. . .
8 October
13 October
21 October
4 November.. .
4 November.. .
23 November...
«
Returned by
Mr. Cooper
Approved.
2 >
c
20 August
14 September. . .
24 September. . .
24 September. . .
24 September. . .
13 October
18 October. .. .
23 October
25 October
N
Sent to
Mr. Cooper
for Approval.
i
16 August
10 September. . .
19 September...
16 September...
14 September. . ,
7 October
14 October
19 October
21 October
-
g
1
3
1
Second panel. . .
Thin! panel. . . .
Fotn-lh panel. . .
Fifth panel
Si.xth panel. . . .
Seventh panel. .
KiKhth panel. . .
Ninth panel.. . .
Tenth panel.. . .
c
"c
Drawing
Number.
WM-^^-'SCf^XOO
62 KOTAL COilMlSSIOy O.V COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The following is a condensed diary of the work more or less connected with the
drawing office in connection with the structure as erected: —
April 12, 1900. — Contract for anchorages signed.
December 19, 1900. — Contract for two approach spans signed.
January, February, March, 1902. — Tentative studies of details for main structure.
July, 1903. — Preliminary studies for final design of Main structure began on
receipt of the revised specifications. Contract signed provisionally on June 19.
July 23, 1903. — Studies of floor system began. Mr. Szlapka decides to arrange
his work so as to complete the shop drawings for the anchor and cantilever arms not
later than August 31, 1904, giving the shops eight months to complete twenty million
pounds, so that erection might begin May 1, 1903.
January to May, 1904. — Computation of stress sheets and make-up of anchor
arm.
March to December, 1904.- — Computation of stress sheets and make-up of canti-
lever arm.
February 19, 1904.— General drawing and stress sheets of suspended span sent to
Mr. Cooper.
March 21, 1904. — Mr. Deans instructed Mr. Szlapka to push all work with the
utmost despatch.
March 29, 1904. — Stress sheets of suspended span approved by Mr. Cooper.
April 8, 1904. — Mr. Szlapka advises Mr. Hoare that weight of bridge would not
be more than five per cent above the estimate, or, say, 62,720,000 pounds.
April, 1904. — Large traveller designed, and weight determined for computing
erection stresses.
May, 1904. — General detail drawing suspended span approved by Mr. Cooper.
May 3, 1904. — Details of anchor bents approved by Mr. Cooper.
May 13, 1904. — Mr. Szlapka sends Mr. Cooper dead load concentrations for canti-
lever and anchor arm, so that Mr. Cooper might check his stress sheets.
May 23, 1904. — Preliminary study of shoes and pedestals sent to Mr. Cooper.
Also complete calculations for anchor arm. Also first shop drawing for anchor bent.
May, 1904. — All typical drawings of top and bottom panel points approved by
Mr. Cooper.
June 2. 1904. — Complete stress sheet for anchor arm taken to Mr. Cooper by Mr.
Szlapka.
June 6, 1904. — Revised plan of anchor eyebars sent to Mr. Cooper.
June 30, 1904. — Mr. Cooper approves anchor arm stress sheet.
July, 1904. — Plate floor beams and stringers approved by Mr. Cooper.
July 10, 1904. — First lower chord plans approved by Mr. Cooper, and work begun
on them in shop.
July 11, 1904. — Copies of anchor arm stress sheet sent to Mr. Hoare for trans-
mission to Department of Eailways and Canals.
July 28, 1904. — Top chords approved by Mr. Cooper. After this drawings com-
pleted and forwarded to Mr. Cooper in a continuous stream.
August, 1904. — Shop drawings of two end panels approved by Mr. Cooper.
The following letter from Mr. Deans to Mr. Hoare describes the situation as at
October 8, 1904:—
October 8, 1904.
E. A. Hoare, Esq.,
Chief Engineer, Quebec Bridge and Railway Company,
Quebec, Canada.
Dear Sir, — We find we have not received from the government engineer the
approval of any main chord sections. As explained to you some time ago, we have
been working at great disadvantage to ourselves in being compelled to confine our
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 63
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
office work to the anchor arm, in order that everything might be done that it is
possible to do to be ready early next spring to start the erection of the anchor arm.
There was too much work to do in the time allotted after the financial arrangements
were made and work ordered ahead. We have not therefore been able to complete our
stress sheets for the cantilever arm and for the suspended span, it being necessary to
await the completion of all details, not only of the permanent structure, but also the
details and rigging of the main travellei", that we may know exactly the total weight
coming at ciach panel point.
We have as you know, sent to the Canadian engineers, through your office, the
stress sheets fcr the anchor arm, covering the chords which have not been approved,
and we would kindly ask that they be examined and prints sent to us with their
approval as soon as possible. The engineers have everything that is necessary to
check these chords, although we thoroughly appreciate they would like to have before
them these stress sheets of the entire bridge, and these will be sent with the least
possible delay.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engineer. 1
November 19, 1904. — :Plan of centre post approved.
January, 1905. — Series of eyebar tests made.
March 3, 1905. — Drawings for main shoes sent to shops.
May 25, 1905. — Mr. Cooper approves stress sheet for cantilever .arm.
July 12, 1905. — First detail drawing cantilever arm chord No. 9 sent to Mr.
Cooper.
July 13, 1905, — Stress sheet for cantilever arm approved by Department of Eail-
ways and Canals. Anchor arm at this stage nearly all fabricated. Mr. Szlapka
expected to finish the shop drawings fcft- first two panels of cantilever arm by Septem-
ber 1, and all the drawings for the bridge by March 15, 1907,
July 20, 1905. — Mr, Cooper and Mr, Szlapka discuss the testing of riveted links
and other uiatters. Use of slightly higher steel for eyebars and some corrections in
camber. All satisfactorily agreed upon,
August 11, 1905. — First lower chord sections of anchor arm erected in position,
and practically whole of anchor arm fabricated, a large amount having been delivered
at bridge site.
June 14, 1906. — Development of drawings so far advanced that the Phoenix
Bridge Company made a closer estimate of the weight of the steel in the structure,
which, including the anchorages, was placed at 73,000,500 poimds. The weight finally
was estimated at 73,312,504 pounds. The actual weight averaged about one per
cent heavier than the weight computed from the drawings. (See attached statement
of weights.)
November 26. 1906. — The south anchor arm and nearly all the south cantilever
arm erected.
February 1, 1907. — Stress sheets of the suspended span revised.
March 15, 1907. — The last drawing completed, being that of the lower chord of
centre panel of siispended span.
June 25, 1907 to October 8, 1907. — Dead load concentrations for suspended span,
cantilever arm and anchor arm revised and new cross sectional areas for members
of bridge computed for purposes of comparison with actual cross-sections.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBEAITH.
64 ROYAL COMMISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
QUEBEC BRIDGE— SOUTH H.\LF.
Statement Showing Comparison of Actual Weights and Weights Figured from Completed
Drawings.
Order
No.
Description.
Figured
Weight.
Total.
.\ctual
Weight.
Total.
602
Lbs.
219.829
374.697
Lbs.
594.526
11,503.040
1,767,972
3,485,673
12,399,311
2,022,725
3,685,640
1,197,365
Lba.
223.100
371.843
Lbs.
604
606
594.943
8.085.621
3.188,361
229.068
8.142,803
3,209.014
229,255
608
610
11 581 072
613
618
Anchor arm floor beams and stringers
1,507,140
260,832
1,517,036
261,510
1,778.548
612
2,676,863
808,810
2,708,560
814,349
614
Centre post system
3.522.909
621
8.602.086
3.467,005
330.220
8,724,598
3,468.253
329.584
623
625
12,522,435
627
629
Cantilever arm floor beams and stringers
1,732,290
290,435
1.770,892
296,206
,
^
2,067.098
631
3,307,590
342,340
35,710
3,379,293
343,280
35,460
633
635
3.758,033
637
Suspended span floor beams and stringers
For one-half of the bridge
1,197,365
1,214,905
1.214,905
36,656,252
73,312,504
27,039,941
74.079,882
Actual weight in excess of weight estimated from drawings, 767,378 pounds.
Percentage of errors, 1 .03 per cent.
.A.ctual weight is 101 .05 per cent of figured weight.
Figured weight is 98.95 per cent of actual weight.
September 25th. 1907.
APPENDIX No. 9.
ilATEKIAL, SHOPWOEK AND INSPECTION.
The steel supplied for the bridgrc was made to meet the requirements of the
Hoarc specifications, with the exception that Mr. Cooper, finding that the tests on the
full-sized eyebars were running a little low, called for the use of a slightly higher
material for eyebar blanks.
The Iloaro specifications oalled for an ordinary grado of structural steel very
similar to the regular output of the mills. The testing requirements were not onerous
but were in accordance with current practice. Some reference to this will be made in
Appendix No. 18.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 65
•SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
The behaviour of the metal, as evidenced by the wreck, was so good that the
commission was convinced that the disaster could not be traced to the furnaces or
rolling mills. Its examination of these wias accordingly rather general in character.
The following amounts of metal were supplied by the different mills : —
Phoenix Iron Company, shapes 16,575,888 lbs.
Central Iron and Steel Company, eyebar blanks. . 14,827,400 "
Central Iron and Steel Company, plates 27,240,100 "
Carnegie Steel Company, plates 1.3,822,000 "
Bethlehem Steel Company, pins 993,600 "
The commission visited the works of the Phoenix Iron Companj-, of the Central
Iron and Steel Company, and of the Pennsylvania Steel Company, the latter corpora-
tion having supplied a large tonnage of slabs to the rolling mills of the Central Iron
and Steel Company.
On our inspections we were accompanied by the mill inspectors employed by the
■Quebec Bridge and Kailway Company, and the details of the manufacture of the
steel, of the rolling of the shapes and plates and of the work of the inspection were
explained fully to us both by these gentlemen :and by the superintendents in charge
of the various works.
We desire to acknowledge here the courtesies extended to us by Mr. J. B. Bailey,
manager of the Central Iron and Steel Company, and by Mr. Reynolds, vice-president
of the Pennsylvania Steel Company.
The tests of material called for in the Hoare specifications were regularly made
by the rolling mills under the supervision of the inspectors for the Quebec Bridge
and Railway Company, and the reports of t-hese tests are filed as Exhibit No. 28. An
examination of these records, there being in the neighbourhood of five thousand tests
in all, shows that there was nothting abnormal about any of the material, and that it
satisfactorily met the requirements of the specifications.
FuU-sized tests of some seventy eyebars were also made in the large machine at
Phoenixville in accordance with the requirements of the specifications. The results
■of these tests are given in Exhibits Nos. 28 and 86, and it will be noted that a number
of the bars tested did not quite come up to specifications. The results of these tests
•were referred to Mr. Cooper, who agreed to accept a certain number of weak bars, but
raised the rolling mill specification so that there would be no further difficulty of
this nature. These full-sized tests were made on finished eyebars, prepared in all
respects as were the eyebars that were used in the bridge.
Mr. Cooper's statements (Cooper to Hoare, August 4, 1903) that 'the various
members of this bridge will exceed anything heretofore made, and will tax to the
utmost the manufacturing appliances of the time,' is a fair description of the work
that the Phoenix Iron Company had undertaken to perform.
When the Phoenix Bridge Company provisionally signed the final contract of
June 19, 1903, its subcontractor, the Phoenix Iron Company, was not fully equipped
for the carrying out of the work, and additions and changes had to be made both to
its buildings and to its plant.
The study that had been given to improvement of equipment preparatory to the
acceptance of the Quebec contract is set forth in the evidence of Mr. Xorris; and
the Phoenix Iron Company was ready to commence making the necessaiy changes as
soon as the contract was accepted.
The total expenditure then made on improvements was over $220,(100, divided as
follows : — ,
Enlargement and improvement of eyebar plant $ 40,000
Alterations of buildings and installation of overhead
cranes sufficiently powerful to handle weights of 100
tons 110.000
154 — vol. i — 5
66 BOYAL COMMISSIOy 0\ COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Xew machinery, including a 64" double rotary planer for
facing the compression chords, a plate straightener
for large thick plates, hydraulic shears for heavy sec-
tions, larger boring mills, large vertical planer, and
sundry alterations to other machinery 70,000
This expenditure was necessary before the Quebec work could be properly
handled, and is an evidence of careful preparation for that undertaking. The addi-
tions themselves constitute a permanent improvement to the Iron Company's plant,
and are now in constant use as part of its regular working equipment.
The evidence shows that Mr. Reeves and Mr. Norris fully appreciated the diffi-
culty of manufacturing the large and complicated pieces of the Quebec bridge, and
that the various superintendents and foremen were warned to give more than usual
attention to the execution of the work. As a preliminary, a full-sized wooden model
of one of the panel points of the lower chord of the anchor arm was made, amd
remained set up for the inspection of the shopmen. All details, such as the heads of
rivets, &c., were shown on this model, so that the shopmen could realize the mechani-
cal accuracy that was necessary in order that the several members meeting at a point
would go together in the field.
The commissioners spent some days in the workshops with the Iron Company's
foremen and with the inspectors for the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company in
order to familiarize themselves with the work of fabrication and inspection. There
was nothing peculiar to the Quebec work other than the great size and weight of the
pieces to be handled, and the usual bridge shop methods were followed, the provisions
of Mr. Cooper's standard specifications having to be observed for workmanship.
It was the obvious intention of the Iron Company to do a first-class piece of
work, and it is in evidence that the management impressed not only on its own offi-
cials but also upon the employees of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company its
desircials but also upon the employees of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company
its desire that the shop inspection should be thorough and rigorous.
All pieces were inspected twice, once by the regular shop inspector employed by
the Phcenix Bridge Company and again by the inspectors for the Quebec Bridge and
Railway Company. In the more delicate work the inspectors had orders not only ta
test the finished pieces, but also to test the setting in the machines before the final
cuts were made.
It was the practice of the shop to make the duplicate pieces for the north and
south halves of the bTidge at the same time; so that the bridge material now lying
in Belair yard was manufactured under exactly the same conditions as that which
was erected from the south shore. The commission spent some time examining the
material in Belair yard, for the purpose of satisfying itself concerning the finish of
the workmanship on the lower chords. This was found to be by no means perfect,
but the errors measured were of small amount. The shops were defective in that
they lacked a well founded floor for the assembling of the heavy pieces. The methods
adopted were also defective in that adjoining compression members were not fitted
together before shipment. Some of the minor, but by no means negligible errors
discovered in Belair yard would have been detected by this fitting, and it is a cus-
tomary practice on heavy woTk. That errors similar to those observed at Belair
existed on the south half of the bridge there can be no doubt, and Mr. Kinloch (see
evidence) states that such errors were observed by him. That these minor errors at
the joints contributed in some degree to the final disaster is probable, but our criticism
in this case is not 6f the shopwork, which was of a fair grade. The fault lies in a
design which called for an accuracy beyond the working limits of good shop practice.
The errors now being discussed are differences of length of the several ribs
making up one chord and irregularities of surface at the field joints of the lower
chords. The chord faces are found to be slightly dished and not true. It is not
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 67
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
possible to determine by analysis the result of these slight errors, the larger of which
would not exceed %4 of an inch in dimensions.
The inspectors were instructed to work to the nearest one-sixtyfourth of an inch;
but such accuracy is hardly practicable. We do not consider that such high accuracy
can be maintained, at least not without fitting together adjoining pieces in the shop.
It is probable that some portion of the errors noted at Belair was due to the
unavoidable racking of the members while in transport.
Both sets of inspectors worked with steel tapes that had been carefully compared,
and kept books of record stating the errors discovered in their inspections and the
methods adopted in correcting them. In cases of difficulty the question was referred
to Mr. Szlapka for instructions, and occasionally to Mr. Cooper.
Some few errors (see Exhibit 91, ' Field corrections ') escaped detection until
the work was being erected in the field; the drafting room and not the machine shop
was responsible for several of these. None of these final errors were of a serious
nature, and the necessary corrections were made without difiiculty.
Mr. Edwards has recorded the following number of errors: —
In the anchor arms. — Twenty-three in the stringers, 2 in the floor beams, 17 in
the lower chords. 20 in the main posts, 7 in the hangers, 4 in the eyebars, 6 in the
pedestals and shoes, 1 in the main diagonals, 14 in the laterals, 15 in the struts, 2 in
the pins, 8 in the plates and in knee braces, giving in all 119 errors.
In the cantilever arms and suspended span. — Twenty-seven in the lower chords,
10 in the floor beams, 8 in the stringers, 8 in the diagonals, 4 in the struts, 4 in the
hangers. 34 in the main posts, 4 in the laterals and 5 in the eyebars, giving in all
104 errors.
As the inspection requirements were more severe than is customary on ordinary
bridge work, and as the shopmen had never been called upon to handle work of such
magnitude before, it was natural that a number of errors should be made, and that
this number should decrease proportionately as the conditions of the work became
better known to the men.
It will be noted from the figures given above that such a decrease in the number
of shop errors did take place, and in the correspondence the better quality of the
workmanship on the cantilever arms, when compared with that on the anchor arms,
is referred to from time to time.
Mr. Kinloeh states in his evidence that in spite of the magnitude and difiiculty
of the work, which would reasonably account for an unusual number of shop errors,
the number actually found during erection was not in excess of what would be
regularly expected on much simpler work.
Mr. Edwards' list of errors, which is not so ample as that prepared by Mr.
Morris, looks, in a statement, to be rather serious, but when the number and magni-
tude of the pieces are remembered it cannot be considered to indicate carelessness or
insufficiency in the shops. Some errors will always occur.
On the whole we consider that the inspection of the material and the work both
in the mills and shops was reasonably efficient, and that the collapse of the bridge is
not attributable to want of care in either.
Some special shopwork errors that occasioned a good deal of correspondence are
referred to elsewhere.
The evidence shows that Mr. Cooper was seriously annoyed at the number of
shop errors reported and reprimanded the inspectors very sharply, but the ease with
which the structure was erected indicates that their work was fairly well done.
The lines of the several ribs in the chords are known to have been wavy to the
extent of from 4-inch to J-inch (see evidence), but errors of this size and kind do
not appear to have been considered a cause of anxiety. The existence of these wavy
bends had been noticed by the shop inspectors, and had been reported both to Mr.
Szlapka and to Mr. Cooper.
154— vol. i— 5i
68 ROYAL COMillS.SWy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1903
We find no evidence to show that the seriousness of such minor errors in the
compression chords and posts was appreciated by the engineers or was ever impressed
by them upon the inspectors. The necessity of detail accuracy in compression
members is referred to in Appendix No. 16.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KEEEY.
J. GALBEAITH,
APPENDIX No. 10.
TEANSPORTATION AND ERECTION.
In the practice of steel bridge design, details are of vital importance; and con-
nections which may appear to be simple and satisfactory frequently prove to be
imjiossible of execution. The complete study of the details therefore involves patient
and skilful work, and necessarily occupies a great deal of time.
A large portion of the time spent on the Quebec bridge plans by the designers
was devoted to the study of practical details.
Four main principles had to be observed :
(1) The size of the metal shapes and plates called for in the bills of material had
to be limited to the dimensions that the rolling mills could furnish. It wiU be noted
by reference to Appendix No. 9 that a large tonnage of metal was made for this
bridge by the Carnegie Steel Company, neither the Phoenix Iron Company nor the
Central Iron and Steel Company being able to make the larger plates.
(2) The members had to be designed so that the machines in the shop could
make them. It will be noted by reference to Appendix No. 9 that the Phoenix Iron
Company had to provide a number of new machines with which to manufacture the
Quebec bridge. These machines were not novel in design; they were simply larger
than those previously used by the Phoenix Iron Company, and were required on
account of the greater size of the parts entering into the work.
(3) The members had to be designed of such size and weight that the railways
could transport them. To ensure this it was necessary to know and comply with the
clearances and weight limits of several different railroads. For some of the members
special cars were provided, so equipped as to make safe transportation a reasonable
certainty. It may be noted that one member of the north half of the bridge has been
lying in the Phoenixville yard for about three years awaiting the renewal of certain
railroad bridges over which it would have to pass to reach Belair yard.
(4) The members had to be designed so that they could be easily and quickly
erected to place with the appliances provided. This made it necessary for the
designers to thoroughly study the system and appliances for erection. The erection
equipment provided was almost entirely new, and much of it was built specially for
this bridge.
The capacity of the erection equipment was sufficient, although demands made
upon it were very great. Some of the members handled weighed 100 tons, and one
lift of two panels of eyebars was 145 tons. This was lifted and placed in position in
the upper chord of the bridge without difficulty, proving the capacity and perfection
of tbe apparatus used in erection.
It should be said that the errors and mistakes of the Phoenix Bridge Company
in connection with the bridge were made in the design, and that its work in detailing,
shopwork and erection was excellent. The care and forethought given to the oiecu-
REPORT OF THE COUMISSWXERS 49
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154 .
tion of the work cannot be better described than it is in the evidence of Messrs. Deans
and Scheidl. We therefore add only a few explanatory remarks to those state-
ments.
Some of the photographs (Exhibits 12(i and 127) show the size and complexity of
parts of the bridge.
The bridge members were loaded on cars by the Phrrnix Iron Company, and were
shipped either to the Chaudiere or to the Eclair storage yards, which are indicated
on Jr.'iwing No. 1 (map). The equipment at these yards for handling the members
is descnbid by Mr. Deans and illustrated by the photographs.
The facilities for loading, unloading and transporting the material were entirely
satisfactory so far as the safe delivery of the members is concerned.
But four cases of accidents during transportation from the shop to the bridge
are reported.
Mr. Milliken (see evidence) has given the particulars of an injury to one
of the steel shells that stood on the anchor pier. This injury was due to an accident
on the railway.
The accident to chord 9L anchor arm which occurred in the Chaudiere storage
yard, and which is frequently referred to in the evidence, is discussed in Appendix
No. 11.
An accident to centre post 6R which occurred in the Chaudiere yard is also
referred to in Appendix No. 11. An injury occurred to one of the north side lower
chords, which fell in the Phoenix Iron Company's yard, striking a centre post cap.
These pieces were repaired before they were shijjped, and have not yet been erected.
The work was delayed owing to lack of railway connections to the bridge site.
The Quebec Bridge and Railway Company's railway line giving connection with the
Chaudiere storage yard was not opened for traffic until July 9, 1905, the first metal
for the main spans being placed on the south anchor pier on July 22, 1905. Owing
to lack of this connection, all the metal for the anchorages and approach spans, and
all the material for the falseworks and traveller, had to be sent to Levis or Quebec
and taken to the bridge site on barges. The beginning of the erection of the main
spans was delayed, and considerable difficulty was experienced by the contractor,
owing to the congestion of the yards at Phopnixville and Belair. At the present date
there are no railway connections with the bridge on the north side of the river;
similar conditions existed on the south shore of the river early in 1905.
It was the duty of the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company to see that these
Tail connections were provided.
The erection traveller is described by Mr. Deans, and is shown in the photo-
graphs in Exhibits 126 and 127. Great attention was given to the design and equip-
ment cJ this traveller, and it perfonned its work in a manner entirely satisfactory lo
the erectors. In evidence the erection workmen stated that they had never worked on a
bridge on which better appliances were provided, or on which the erection programme
had been more perfectly^ arranged. In order to hasten the erection of the bridge,
which had been delaj'cd by lack of rail connections, it was decided in January, 1906,
to erect the suspended span with a small traveller, so that the big traveller might be
removed to the north shore at an earlier date. This programme, which was followed,
was found quite satisfactory, and it tended to increase the safety of the structure
during erection, as erection stresses were thereby reduced.
At the time of the collapse of the bridge the small traveller was doing all the
work of erection and the big traveller was being dismantled.
In the design of the bridge a normal configuration and loading was assumed in
which the stresses in all the members were intended to be axial. In other wondjs,
under these conditions no bending stresses would exist at the various joints; under
any other loading, therefore, angular changes would either take place or tend to take
place at the joints : that is to say, bending stresses would exist.
70 ROTAL COMMISSIOS 0-V COLLAPSE OF QVEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The shop length's of all members being computed so that in the normal configura-
tion the members had the normal lengths, it resulted that during erection, when the
members were under little or no stress, the whole configuration was distorted, as
compared with the normal configuration. The false works upon which the anchor
arm was built had therefore to be arranged to conform to the initial configuration.
After the anchor arm was erected, the building of the cantilever arm gradually intro-
duced and increased the stresses in the various members of the anchor arm, and at
a certain stage the anchor arm became free from the camber blocks on the falsework,
which were lowered to assist this movement.
In the original distorted form all field butt joints were in contact only at one
edge, since in the normal form they would be in fuU contact. With the increasing
loads on the cantilever arm, due to the progress of erection, these joints gradually-
approached the condition of full contact, and in doing so revolved about the edges in
contact; in the meantime the splices were secured by bolts which could be changed
as the movement at the joints improved the matching of the holes. The instructions
issued by the Phoenix Bridge Company were that when the joints finally closed the
splices should be permanently riveted.
It must be apparent that during the movement in question the stresses at these
joints were applied first only at the edges in contact, and that it was not until the^
joints were fully closed that there was any possibility of uniform distribution of
stress. Indeed this condition was not possible until the bridge would be completed
and carrying its normal load, and the attainment of this condition would even then
be dependent on the accuracy of the mechanical work at the joints.
Drawings No. 8 and 11- in this appendix show in an exaggerated manner the
members in the initial distorted configuration; and drawing No. 12 shows, amoliig
other things, the records kept of the above described camber movements.
These movements were regularly and carefully observed by the Phceuix Bridge
Company's engineer in charge of survey work, and ilr. Deans states that these
observations agreed closely with the expected movements as calculated by the desig-n-
ing engineers.
The adopted scheme of erection was carefully worked out in all details before the
work of erection began. The results of this study were embodied in a book of field
instructions (Exhibit 60), copies of which were furnished to the principal foremen
on the work and to the representatives of the Quebec Bridge Company. These
instructions were imperative, and were not departed from or varied without approval
of the Phoenix Bridge Company at Phoenixville.
Air. Kinloeh in his evidence, referring to these instructions said : ' In fact
yon had oniy to follow instructions and the thing would get there itself if
you followed ther lines laid down.' This statement coming from a bridge erector of
Mr. Kinloch's experience is a tribute to the completeness of the prearranged system
of erection.
There can be no doubt that the camber problem in the Quebec bridge was much
more difficult than in ordinary structures on account of the magnitude of the bridge
and the great size of its members.
The pj egress of erection is illustrated by the dated photographs and the date at
which each member was erected as shown on drawing No. 6.
The actual work of erection of the bridge began July 22, 1005, and continued
for that season until November 24. This work comprised six panels of the south
anchor arm.
In 1906 erection was commenced April 16, and continued until November 29.
At the end of this season's work the condition of all joints, as reported by Mr. Birks
and Mr. Yenser, complied with 'the requirements of the Phwuix Bridge Company's
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 71
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
instructions to their employees (Exhibit 60). At this date the anchor arm and prac-
tically all of the cantilever arm were erected.
Work of erection was resumed May 1, 1907, and continued until August 29, the
date of the collapse of the structure. At that date the fourth panel of the suspended
span was in course of erection.
APPENDIX No. 11.
A DISCUSSION OF THE DIFFICULTIES THAT AROSE DURING EREC-
TION AND OF THE EVENTS AT THE TIME OF THE
COLLAPSE OF THE STRUCTURE.
The contract for the construction of the main spans was made conditionally on
June 19, 1903, and finally accepted by the Phcenix Bridge Company on March 15,
1904. By the 1st of August, 1904, the assembling of materials for the falseworks on
the south shore had commenced, and by the beginning of September, 1904, the erec-
tion of the falsework was well under way. The wooden falsework for the supply
tracks and the steel falsework for the traveller and bridge trusses were erected simul-
taneously, not quite one-half of the falsework being put up before December 1, 1904.
The erection of the big traveller was commenced, and the storage yard at Chaudiere
was in working order before the end of the season of 1904.
SEASON OF 1905.
A considerable amount of material was delivered at the Chaudiere yard during
the winter, but the work was not pushed in the spring of 1905 because there was no
rail connection between the bridge site and the Chaudiere yard. This connection was
completed on July 9, 1905, at which time the framework of the big traveller was being
completed, and the falsework had been erected to the main pier but was not finished.
The equipment of the traveller was installed and the erection of the steelwork
was commenced at the anchor pier on July 22, 1905. By the middle of Septembe/n
the lower chords of the anchor arm had been erected, the pedestals and feet of the
centre posts were being placed and the erection of the web members and upper chords
had commenced.
By the end of the season, six panels of the anchor arm, out of a total of ten,
were in place. The weight of metal erected during each month is given in the monthly
estimate of the chief engineer (Exhibit 42), the total amount erected during 1905
being about 10,500,000 pounds.
The work during the season proceeded satisfactorily both to the Phoenix Bridge
Company and the Quebec Bridge Company. There were some difficulties which are
described in the evidence. The more important of these were as follows: —
Field corrections, 1905. — The ' field ' filed notices of 21 corrections and altera-
tions with the ' office ' of the Phoenix Bridge Company's erecticon department. These
files up to August 29, 1907, all concern minor alterations that would facilitate erection,
but do not call for comment.
Ch ord A 9L. — In April, 1905, this chord had a severe fall while being handled in
the Chaudiere yard. One of the hooks that were being used in raising it broke, and
the whole chord fell, one end striking on a yard plate lying on the ground, and the
other on a pile of eyebars. The drop was five feet at one end and about three feet at
72 ROYAL COMMISSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 190?
the other. The chord'struck in such a way that any resulting hend would have beeni
at right angles to the deflections measured on August 27, 1907. The two lower flange-
angles were broken. This chord was repaired in July, 1905, in accordance with drawW
ings received from Phcenixville, and to the satisfaction of the Quebec Bridge Com-
pany. We have examined these repairs since the fall of the bridge, and we find
nothing to justify us in connecting them with the disaster. Whether the chord was
strained by its fall so that it afterwards bent more readily under stress is a matter of
conjecture that cannot be settled. A discussion of the failure of chord A 9L under
less than its working load will be found in Apjwndix No. 16.
Painting. — There was some discussion because the designs were such that water
and snow could lodge in many pockets of the steelwork, and that other parts of it
were inaccessible for future painting. Mr. Hoare considered that this was an ' over-
sight ' on the part of both the Phoenix Bridge Company and Mr. Cooper, and on Mr.
Kinloch's advice insisted on its being remedied. No changes were made, but better
provision for painting was arranged for in the members not yet built.
Masonry. — It was found necessary to delay the placing of the pedestals until the-
surface of the masonry upon which they were to res't was djressed level. Mr. Cooper
would not permit the use of a lead plate under the pedestal, and had pieces of duck,
heavily coated with red lead, used instead.
M(tin shoe right truss. — On placing this in position it w.\3 found that the
bottom did not bear evenly on the pedestals, there being an opjning parallel to the
bridge centre line about 4 feet wide and perhaps A-inch high at the maximum. It was
decided that this would close as the weight on the shos increased, but this closing
had only partially occukred up to August 29, 1907. The shop inspector (Mr. McLure
in this case) states that no warp ex:isted in the finished pieces in tlie shop, and that
it must have been caused by handling and transportation. The matter does not call
for further comment.
Lower chords — bends. — It was noticed by Mr. Kinloch that lower chords A IR,
A 2-R, A 3-E, after they were set, and before any stress came on them, did not look
sttraight, but were wavy to the extent of perhaps J-inch. He discussed this matter
with ifessrs. Birks and McLure, and it was decided that it was of no importance.
It was also noted early in September, 1905, that tli3 opjaiags at th3 bver chord
splices did not correspond exactly with the erection diagrams (Exhibit 60), 'but
seemed to average up about the same,' ami also that the inside ribs of chords at
splices 1 and 2 did not line up well.*
SEASON OF 1906.
In 1906, erection commenced on April 16, and the south anchor arm was all in-
place, with the exception of some decorative details, by June 27. Erection continued
on south cantilever arm and this was completed, with the exception of some connect-
ing pieces between it and the suspended span before work closed down for the year,,
on November 26. The total weight of metal erected during this season was about
21,000,000 pounds. Work on the north share commenced about the middle of July,
and a small portion of tlie falsework was in position by the end of the season.
During this season few diflScultios occurred, and these were of a kind usually
met with in all large work. The following quotation from Mr. McLure's report to
Mr. Cooper, undtw date of July 31, 190C, gives a fair idea of the conditions existing
on the work: — 'The whole policy of the Phcenix erec^ian department seems to be to
make things safe and take no chances, which is a very satisfsctory one to lis, and in
pursuance of this everything is being bolted up in full in cantilever arm, with the
*0n drawing No. 11 the erection markings of the various members are shown, the letters
E and L beinf{ used to denote the trusses on the Quebec and Montreal sides of the-
bridge respectively.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIOJiERS 73
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
largest size bolte the holes will take, post and chord splices, main and subdiagonal
splices, as -well as all lateral and transverse bracing connections.'
Field corrections, 1906. — Fifty corrections and alterations were reported by the
' field ' during this season, none of them being of a serious character as far as the
safety of the bridge was concerned.
Painting. — The field inspectors for the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company
recorded many minor defects both in the arrangements for future painting and with
regard to the shop painting that had been done. There are few bridges built upon
which this difficulty does not arise.
Centre post. — Section No. 6 of this post in the Queb33 truss (G P, 6R) wasi
injured while being handled in the Chaudiere yard in April, the outstanding leg of
one of (he flange angles of an inner rib being broken through the slipping of a hoist-
ing chain. This break was repaired duri,ng the summer in accordance with plans
drawn by the Phoenix Bridge Company and to the satisfaction of the Quebec Bridge
Company's inspectors. There is no evidence to show that this break was a cause of
the collapse of the bridge. On June 2, Mr. McLure reported to Mr. Cooper that the
bearing surfaces at the top of C P 1, both K and L, were not even and would not give
a good bearing to the centre post aps, these surfaces being made up of the tops of
the posts themselves and of two brackets attached to each. Mr. Cooper immediately
wired Mr. Hoare as follows: 'Do not allow posts C P, 1, erected until top is made
level. Notify McLure.' Mr. Hoare immediately issued instructions to this effect.
The Phoenix Bridge Company sent Mr. Scheidl to check Mr. McLure's measurements,
and the defect was finally made good in accordance with Mr. Cooper's detail instruc-
tions to Mt. McLure. The fault lay both in the fitting of the brackets and in the
facing of the posts by the planer. Mr. Cooper considered such workmanship to be
disgraceful; but the defects as stated to him were rather exaggerated owing to the
methods of measurement adopted by the inspectors.
Compression members. — On July 20, Mr. McLure wrote to Mtr. Edwards as
follows : — ' On a number of the compression members that we have erected — particu-
larly on three or four anchor urm bottom chord sections, in chard 621 8-L (south
cantilever arm, bottom chord), and in main diagonal sections for both anchor and
cantilever arms (T 5 and T 50), and on 621 S P-5 sections (south cantilever arm sub-
posts), especially the latter — in sighting firom end to end, the webs in places are
decidedly crooked, and show up in wavy lines apparently held that way by the lacing
angles. This makes a very bad appearance, for a person seeing a member like that,
and knowing it to be in compression, would at once infer that it had been over-
strained suiBciently to bulge the webs. As to its actual effect in the number of cases
I have figured out there is no possibility of this causing trouble, as long as the lacing
in the members in question is intact.' On September 22, Mr. McLure reported to
Mr. Cooper a deflection of J-inch in a distance of 36 feet and of ^-inch in a distance
of 17 feet in the upper section of post 3-L, cantilever arm (621 L' P 3-L). Mr. Cooper
replied that he did not like the distortions, but did not see that anything could be
done at that stage. No effort was made to correct any of these irregularities, all of
which were due either to shop errors or to racking in ■transportation. We do not
connect these undoubted faults immediately with the disaster.
Removal of steel falsework. — In August, 1906, the Phoenix Bridge Company
issued instructions covering the removal of the steel falsework bents, under members
T O and P I, anchor arm. The draft of the instructions showed that the Phoenix
Bridge Company expected the portions of the anchor airm near the main pier to lift
first, as the weight erected on the cantilever arm increased, but desired, for con-
venience of erection on the north shore, to take down the bents near the anchor pier
as soon as possible. On September 15, Mir. McLure reported these instructions in
detail to Mr. Cooper, and asked him for directions concerning the matter; he also
74 ROYAL COMMISSION OY COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
reported that no lifting was yet visible at any point in the anchor arm. On Septem-
ber 17, Mr. Cooper directed Mr. McLure to permit the removal of the falsework,
. provided he was satisfied that the remaining bents would not be overloaded. On
September 29, Mr. McLiire reported that E P, K, had lifted clear of the falsework,
and on the same day it was noticed that TOO 0-E was free. Afteir discussion in
the ' field,' the blocking under T 5-Z, both E and L, was lowered |-inch, T 5 Z-K then
swinging free. On October 2, Mr. Cooper advised Mr. McLure that he thought the
intermediate bents were too high, and that he should examine them for evidences of
extra loading and have them slacked down. ' The whole must be rather a matter of
careful obseirvation and judgment rather than any referenoa to theoretical lines.'
Mr. Cooper read, this letter to Mr. Szlapka, and during the following week the block-
ing under T 5 Z, P-4 and T O O 0 O was lowered on orders from Phoenixville. As
this was done without notice to ilr. McLure, who had received Mr. Cooper's instiruc-
tions about the falsework, he immediately protested against this failure to recognize
the inspectors of the Quebec Bridge Company. A short and rather sharp controversy
atrose over this, which was closed on October 20 by a personal letter from Mr. Hoare
to Mr. Deans, below quoted, in which Mr. Hoare very definitely asserts the import-
ance of Mr. McLure's position as the representative of Mr. Cooper and himself, and
makes it clear that no important steps are to be taken in the future without Mr.
McLure's knowledge : —
(Letterhead, the Commissioners of the Trans-Continental Railway.)
Quebec, October 20, 1906.
Dear Deans, — I wish to send you a few personal lines on the following matter.
Mr. McLure showed me a letter dated October 5, written by him to Mr. Milliken,
respecting the relieving of steel falsework bents under anchor a)rm without giving
him notice of such a procedure in order that Mr. Cooper first and then myself be
previously notified. Mr. McLure has specific instructions to notify Mr. Coopeir of
any important procedure, and receive in return any instructions that may be neces-
sary. I fancy changes were made from Phoenixville to relieve the falsework. Mr.
McLure — representing the Bridge Company's officers not daily on the work — should
have been immediately informed, notwithstanding the fact that you considered your
instructions perfectly correct and safe. If Mr. McLure had been informed in time
he could have wired Mr. Cooper your intentions without any delay to the work. I
entirely endorse his letter to Mr. Milliken and to you on the subject of yours of .the
8th inst. to Mr. Milliken.
Both you and Mr. Milliken appear to have misunderstood Mr. McLure's letter.
He did not for a moment intend interference with erection orders from your office,
but makes a plain request to be informed of important moves of the above nature,
and not be ignored, in order that he may perform his duty and carry out his instruc-
tions. I regret your remarks on his lack of experience, as it was uncalled for, and
as a reflection on the Bridge Company's supervision, and instead of helping matters
the tendency will be to ignore general inspection orders which can be considered as
given by me personally. Mr. McLure communicates daily with me and weekly with
Mr. Cooper to receive instructions when necessary. I am writing you a personal and
friendly letter, which I hope will receive your usual generous consideration by seeing
that Mr. McLure is better informed in future by your chief representative on the
work of any proceedings of importance or of the nature referred to.
Yours truly,
E. A. HOARE.
In the week ending October 29, T .') Z, P 4, T O 0 O. and E P, were reported as
free from the falsework, and in the following week the blocking at T O O P 2, T O O
and P 3 (drawing No. 5) was lowered, P 1 swinging clear while this was being done.
BrrORT OF THE COMHISSIOyERS 75
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
By November 3, only TOO and P 2 were still bearing, and by further lowering of
the blocking the whole truss was set free before Xovember 28. This record shows
clearly that the right truss rose more quickly than the left truss, and that the centre
of the anchor arm remained resting upon the falsework for the longest time. In his
evidence Mr. Cooper has expressed the opinion that the blocking near the centre was
left too high, and that it acted as a fulcrum, permitting E P and T O to lift from
the falsework at an early date, whereas, theoretically, they should have been the last
to lift. On page 842 of the evidence he suggests that this condition may have pro-
duced an undue and unprovided-for strain on the anchor arm splices. There is no
evidence that any serious action of this nature took place, Mr. ilcLure having been
unable to observe any signs of stress at the suspected points, and no deformations in
a vertical plane being anywhere on record. In our opinion the failure of the Phoenix
Bridge Company to more closely adjust the blocking of the truss to its movements
was an error of judgment, as the stresses produced by the gradual working of the
truss are not calculable, and the movement should be made as free as possible.
The commission has been unable to satisfactorily determine the respective duties
cf ^Ir. Hoare and Mr. Cooper, their real p jsitions heing perhaps better brought out
by the events of 1906 than by any other evidence. According to Mr. Deans (letter.
Deans to Parent, April ^4, 1900, Exhibit 75 K),'Mr. Cooper had to approve all plans,
but all other authority was vested in Mr. Hoare, and this opinion Mr. Deans con-
tinued to hold throughout the work (see evidence). According to Mr. Parent (letter,
Parent to Holgate, Evidence), Mr. Hoare was practically an executive officer
acting in all technical matters on the direction of Mr. Cooper, who was <Je
facto, chief engineer, Mr. Cooper himself has stated that the erection plans
were not subject to his authority (see evidence), and has disclaimed any respon-
sible connection with the inspection either in the shop or in the field (see
Evidence). With few exceptions, all his directions are advisory and not imperative,
and he seems to have endeavoured throughout to avoid encroaching upon the privi-
leges and rights properly pertaining to Mr. Hoare's position. He gave frequent
directions to both Mr. McLure and Mr. Edwards on technical matters, but throughout
the construction period (August, 1905, to August, 1907) he had practically no corres-
pondence with Mr. Hoare. Mr. Cooper's opinions, when given, were accepted by the
inspectors as instructions. The impression left with us is that throughout the work
Mr. Cooper was in the position of a man forced in the interests of the work to take
responsibility which did not fully belong to his position, and which he was not
authorized to take, and that he avoided the assumption of authority whenever
possible.
Such an organization cannot from an executive standpoint be considered entirely
satisfactory. Mr. Yenser closed the season of 1906 with the following report: —
New Liverpool, P.Q., November 30, 1906.
The Phcenix Bridge Company,
Phoenixville, Pa.
Gentlemen : —
south side.
I beg to report to-day that all the bolting is fully completed on aU metal erected
in accordance with your instructions.
The work for closing down for the winter is nearing completion. The traveller
has been unrigged, and all tools are properly stored. The engines on the traveller
are housed, and the shelters are now being covered with tar paper.
The storage yard is closed, and the locomotive put away.
The large scow has been beached, and preparations for putting the small scow in
winter quarters are under way.
A general report will be sent you at the entire closing down for the season.
Yours truly,
B. A. YENSER.
76 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
SEASON OF 1907.
Work for the season of 1907 began in March, it being necessary to have a yard
prepared to receive material on the north shore by early spring. The yard was located
at Belair, close to the junction of the Canadian Pacific and National Transconti-
nental Eailways. Work on the trusses began on May 1, but until May 31 was confined
mainly to riveting. Using the big traveller, the connecting links "between the canti-
lever arm and the suspended arm were put in, and the small traveller was built. On
July 13. the erection of the suspended span was commenced, the small traveller being
used, and the dismantling and removal of the big traveller was begun. Both of these
operations were in progress when the bridge fell, on Thursday, August 29.
On the north shore work continued at a leisurely rate from about May 15 until
the day of the accident. The north shore falsework was not fully erected by that
date, there being no reason to hurry, becavise rail connection could not be obtained.
During this season less than 3,000,000 pounds of metal was erected. The last
progress estimate (August, 1907) showed that about 34,400,000 pounds in all had heen
erected.
Riveting. — It had been intended to delay much of the riveting of the structure
until the erection of the south half of the bridge was completed, and all joints had
their full stress; but at a meeting between Mr. Cooper and Mr. Szlapka, on May 10,
it was decided that riveting could be done at once at all joints where the connecting
pieces had taken their full bearing. The estimate of the amount of field riveting in
the south half of the bridge was as follows: —
Part of bridge. No. of rivets.
Anchor arm and centre posts 121,000
Cantilever arm 98,700
South half of suspended span 53,300
Total 273.000
Some minor riveting was done in 1905, and in 1906 the joints of the floor beams
and those near the anchor pier were riveted, but the bulk of the riveting was not
started until 1907. Drawing No. 7 shows the dates on which the joints of the main
trusses were riveted. The following table shows the number of rivets driven during
the periods specified : —
Period. No. of rivets driven.
During 1905 7,807
" 1906 46.301
" May, 1907 31.517
" June, 1907 26.512
" July, 1907 38,917
" August, 1907 (not including August 29) 28,019
Total 179,073
On August 3, Mr. McLure reported that the anchor arm was ninety per cent
riveted, although the bottom lateral braces in panels 6, 9 and 10 were not riveted ;
and that forty per cent of the riveting on the cantilever arm was done. At the same
date the lower chord splices at 5-6, 9-10 and 10-11 wore the only chord splices in the
anchor arm remaining unriveted. Throughout the season the work proceeded satis-
factorily; there were practically no difficulties until after August 1.
Fourteen corrections and alterations were reported by the ' field ' to the oflice of
the erection department.
REPORT OF THE COlIillSSIOyERS 77
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
The surveys in May showed that the truss had stood up very well throughout the
winter, the movement of the centre post being trifling, indicating that the stresses
then existing were well within the strength of the members. On July 20, a wooden
derrick that was being used in the dismantling of the big traveller was struck by
lightning. The derrick mast was shattered, but no other damage was done.
The diflSculties with the lower chords that finally resulted in the collapse of the
bridge were noted early in the season, but those first observed were considered to be
of minor importance. The joints between lower chords 5 and 6, anchor arm,
remained open A-inch on the lower side long after all the others had closed. They
finally closed shortly before the disaster, and on August 29 were being riveted. No
explanation has been offered of the slow closing of these joints, and from their near-
ness to the falsework bents at T O O and P 2 it is possible that the pressure of the
falsework may have had something to do with this.
On June 15, Mr. McLure reported to Mr. Cooper as follows: — 'In riveting the
bottom chord splices of south anchor arm, we have had some trouble on account of
the faced ends of the two middle ribs not matching as per following sketch (the
sketch shows that at the lower sides the middle ribs of the abutting chords were out
of line by | to J inch, this offset decreasing to nothing near the mid depth of the
ribs). This has occurred in four instances so far, and by using two 75-ton jacks we
have been aWe to partly straighten out these splices, but not altogether. These were
probably in this condition when erected, but owing to the presence of the bottom
cover plate, it was then impossible to detect them, and it was only when this plate
was removed for riveting that the inequality was noticed. The chords found in this
shape were between 3 and 4, 7 and 8 and S and 9, in east truss, and 8 and 9 in west
truss. You will note that this occurs only on inside ribs, which are provided with
but a single thin splice plate each. I think that a heavy plate on each side of these
ribs, bolted up tight when chords were erected, would have remedied this, i.e., drawn
the ribs together till the " faced ends matched." ' Mr. Cooper replied on June 17,
saying : — ' Make as good work of it as you can. It is not serious. It would be well
to draw attention to as much care as possible in future work to get the best results
in matching all the members before the full strains are brought upon them.'
It should be noted that of the four joints mentioned, those between chords 3 and
4 and 7 and 8 had originally been opened at the lower side and had come together by
■* camber ' movement; but the 8 and 9 joints had been set with the lower edges abut-
ting. During the first stages of erection, the upper edges of all the ribs at a joint
were exposed to view, as the upper cover plate was not in place. Mr. Kinloch, to
whose practical knowledge of bridge work and powers of o'bservation much of the
excellence of Mr. McLure's report is due, states in his evidence that he
observed gaps between abutting ribs as great as 3'2-inch due to irregular finish of the
planed ends of the chords. In the examination of the material in Belair yard the
commissioners found irregularities of workmanship which would account for the
conditions described above, and in our judgment these could have been avoided only
by matching the chords together in the shop previous to shipment. The small gaps
between abutting ends of chords closed as the pressure on the chords increased, with
no result other than producing irregularity of stress, but the lateral deviations had
to be corrected by the use of jacks.
As lUr. Cooper, in his evidence (see evidence), has expressed the opinion that
these lower chord joints were, during erection, the weakest and the most hazardous
part of the structure, and that they suffered from lack of appreciation of the neces-
sary care to be given them, it is advisable to closely review all evidence concerning
them. The chords consisted of four deep and narrow ribs latticed together and
finished with square ends so that the pressure might be transmitted from one chord
to the next by contact of the abutting ends. Under the system of erection adopted
it was possible to place the adjoining chord ends in contact only at either the upper
78 ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
or lo'sver edges, and it was expected that the chords would gradually turn during the
settlement of the bridge until the end surfaces came fully in contact, as is more fully
described in Appendix jSTo. 10. This expectation was realized. The adjoining chords
were held together by eight spliced plates, an upper and a lower horizontal plate, two
vertical plates on each outside rib and one vertical plate on each inner rib. The
order of erection required that the lower plate should be put in position before the
next chord was set : the vertical plates were next placed, and the erection of the joint
was finished by bolting on the upper plate. Owing to the erection angle at the joint
'it was possible to use full size bolts on only one horizontal plate and on one edge,
either upper or lower, of each vertical plate. The instructions with regard to the
belting were very definite, and read as follows (see Exhibit 60) : — ' all bottom
chords to have two-thirds of all holes of web splices filled with 1-inoh bolts on the
outer ribs, and |-inch bolts on the inner ribs, or their equivalent in smaller bolts or
drifts. For top splice plate apply rule (1), (this requires that every hole shall "be
filled with a bolt), and never take off splice plate again, not even while driving rivets
in web splices. Bottom splice plate to be bolted with bolts (two-thirds value). While
driving rivets in web splices of chords, remove bottom splice plate and bolt across
flanges temporary angles to keep flanges in place.' Owing to the camber openings at
the joints it was found necessary in some cases to use |-ineh bolts, as no larger bolts
could enter the holes in their erection condition.
The evidence shows that these instructions were carried out, but not with a full
appreciation of their importance. Mr. Birks, who was admitted by all witnesses to
have been an exceptionally accurate and painstaking inspector, examined all the
bolting towards the end of the season of 1906, this examination being made on direc-
tion of Mr. Deans, and at the express request of Mr. Reeves, the president of the
Phoenix Bridge Company. He reported as follows : —
All bottom chord splices in anchor arm — top plate full — bottom plate and webs
67 per cent — all joints bolted as per instructions ; ' and also, ' all chords in the first
five panels of the cantilever arm top plate full — rest 67 per cent.' Mr. McLure's
report about bolting has already been quoted, and Mr. Kinloch, in his evidence,
states that the PhcEnix Bridge Company's instructions about bolting were fully
obeyed, but that he personally did not pay much attention to the bolting of the
bottom cover plate, as he knew that it had to come off during riveting. Beauvais, the
riveter, in his evidence casts some doubts upon the inspectors' reports, and we are of
the opinion that the top and bottom cover plates and the splice plates for the outside
ribs, all of which could be readily seen by the inspectors, were correctly bolted, but
there may have been some cases of insufficient bolting on the inside ribs. Such cases
were we think rare. It was intended that, as the camber openings closed, the smaller
bolts should be taken out and replaced by larger bolts on all outside plates, the inner
plates being difiicult of access until the bottom cover plate was removed. This idea
does not seem to have been followed in practice to any extent, nor is there any evi-
dfence to show that the bolting was systematically tightened up, as it worked loose
with the adjustment of the structure. The evidence also shows that the bottom cover
plates were left off during the whole period of riveting a joint (usually from ten days
to two weeks), and that in the case of 7-8 L cantilever arm this plate was off for
nearly the whole month of August, 1007. We must therefore conclude that the splice
plates at the joints were rather loosely attached, and that the importance of rigidity
it these points were strangely overlooked.
It should be noted that this system of bolted splices was a necessity due to the
method of erection adopted, but that there was no reason why the end details of the
chords and the splice plates themselves should not have been much more strongly
and rigidly designed. The erection problem was unique in magnitude, particularly
in the camber requirements, and the method followed by the Phcrnix Bridge Company
closely corresponds to that in general and successful use on smaller structures. It
REPORT OF THE COlIilHSSIOXERS 79
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
is open to criticism on theoretical grounds, and it is possible thit other engineers
might, by other design, serve the same ends; the problem in its dimensions is so
entirely new, that there is room for much study and invention in erection methods
for great structures.
We know of no reason why the method adopted cannot be successfully used, but
the evidence shows that the Phoenix Bridge Company failed to appreciate the impor-
tant influence that end details and splices had on the strength of the chords. Steps
were not taken to ensure that the work was so handled that the maximum rigidity
consistent with design was secured at these joints. Considering the circumstances,
we know of no good reason why the riveting should not have been much further
advanced before the great stresses created by the erection of the suspended span were
thrown upon the joints. The report of Mr. ilcLure on November 10, 1906, shows
that all but eight of the forty lower chord joints were then closed and ready for
riveting. Mr. Cooper has clearly stated that he did not consider that the erection
methods were subject to Jjis control, although the evidence shows that he was fre-
quently consulted about them, both by !Mr. Szlapka and by Mr. McLure. The erection
p.-oblem in this case was of great importance, and the Quebec Bridge Company did
not place their interests under the direct and responsible control of an experienced
engineer acting solely on its behalf.
Difficulties developed almost as soon as the erection of the suspended span got
well under way. On August 6, Mr. McLure reports as follows : —
New Liverpool, P.Q., August 6, 1907.
Mr. Theodore Cooper,
Consulting Engineer,
45 Broadway, New York City.
Dear Sir, — In riveting up the splice between chords 8 and 7 in the west truss
of south cantilever arm we found the condition of the inside ribs at splice as indicated
in the following sketch (drawing No. 30).
Owing to the limited space between the two inside ribs, it would be impossible
to jack this splice back, and as the condition is not nearly as bad at the top of the
splice, we have proposed putting a diaphragm between the two inside ribs to cover
the first five rivets up from the bottom on each side of the splice, as indicated in red
in the sketch above. The splice plates being riveted on the two inside ribs, it will
be necessary to cut out and redrive twenty rivets to do this. This provision, together
with the top and bottom cover plates, should be siifficient to hold this splice against
the thrust due to its being out of line, which thrust when under its maximum
compressive stress I estimate at not over 60,000 pounds.
The Phoenixville office is being notified of this plan, and if they will approve
will wire us. If this also meets with your approval, or if you wish to suggest another
way to remedy the difficulty, will you please wire me at St. Romuald, P.Q., care
Phoenix Bridge Company, as the riveting gangs are ready to finish riveting this splice.
Very truly yours,
N. E. McLUHE.
Upon receipt of this letter, Mr. Cooper wired the Phoenix Company as follows,
August 8 : —
New York, August 8, 1907.
Phcene Bridge Company,
Phoenixville, Pa.
Method proposed by Quebec for splicing joints at lower 7 and 8 chords is not
satisfactory. How did bend occur in both chords ?
THEODOEE COOPER.
80 ROTAL COilillSSlON ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
And wrote Mr. McLure on August 9 as follows: —
New York, August 9, 1907.
N. E. McLuRE, Esq.,
Inspector for Erection, Quebec Bridge,
Xew Liverpool, P.Q.
De.\r Sm, — Tours of the 6th regardina: bent condition of lower 7 and S chord
joint came yesterday. I wired Phoenix that the proposed method as sketched by you
for repairing was not satisfactory. Also asked, what you should have reported, how
did both these chords get bent?
In my opinion these webs can be brought back to proper line by use of fifteen to
twenty 1-inch bolts, threaded at both ends for nuts, passing through the two webs
of that half of chord. Of course means must be taken to stiSeu the straight web
against its bending when the bolts are tightened.
If necessary, after getting the bent webs in line, to hold them, spacers and
possibly some through bolts may be used.
Some more satisfactory method than the one shown in your sketch niusrt be
devised.
Mr. Deans telegraphs that upon Mr. Szlapka's return he will give me fuller
facts.
Yours truly,
THEOUUKE COOPEK.
Then the following tele^am was received from Mr. Deans : —
Phcenkville. Pa., August 9, 1907.
Theodore Cooper,
Consulting Engineer,
45 Broadway, New York.
Mr. Szlapka happened to be at bridge site yesterday ; expect him home to-morrow,
with full information concerning chord joint ; will then write you f uUy.
JNO. STERLING DEANS.
To which Mr. Cooper Bspliecl as follows : —
New York, August 9, 1907.
John Sterling Deans,
Chief Engineer Phoenix Bridge Company,
Phoenixville, Pa.
Dear Sm, — ^Your telegram regarding chord joint at hand. The method proposed
as sketched by Mr. McLure is not satisfactory as I telegraphed yesterday.
These bent webs can be pulled back by use of about fifteen to twenty 1-inch bolts
(in lA-in. holes) threaded at both ends for nuts, passing from the outer to the inner
bent web. The outer straight web being stayed in some manner against its bending.
If the bent webs after being pulled into line, tend to go back when released from
the bolts, stays mu^st be introduced to hold them in position. Possibly it may be
necessary to permanently rivet in some of these 1-inch bolts.
Please let me know what method you propose to use.
It is a mystery to me how both these webs happened to be bent at one point and
why it was not discovered sooner.
Yours very truly,
THEODORE COOPER.
REPORT OF THE COMSIlSSlOyERS 81
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
On August 10, Mr. Deans wrote as follows: —
Phcenixvii.le, Pa., August 10, 1907.
Theodore Cooper, Esq.,
Consulting Engineer,
45 Broadway, New York.
Dear Sir. — Splice cantilever chords 7 and 8.
Mr. Szlapka did not return to-day as expected, but will no doubt be here on
Monday, when we will write you at once.
Yours truly,
JOHN STERLING DEANS.
and on l'2th ilr. Deans wrote as follows: —
Phcenixville, Pa., August 12, 1907.
Theodore Cooper, Esq.,
Consulting Engineer,
45 Broadway. New York.
Dear .Sir, — Chord splice south cantilever arm, 7 L and 8 L.
Mr. Szlapka reached the oiRce this morning and I am able to give you information
in conection with this one joint.
All rihs of the chord 7 L have a complete and full bearing on ribs of 8 L. The
bend was no doubt put in the rib in the shop, before facing and was probably done
when pulling the ribs in line to make them agree with spacing of these ribs and the
clearance between ribs, called for on the drawing. The bend being on only one rib of
one chord, there being a full bearing over the entire rib, all splice plates being readily
put in iwsition, we do not think it necessary to put in the diaphragm suggested
by the erection department.
Please let us hear from you on this subject promptly, and oblige.
Yours truly,
JOHN STERLING DEANS.
Chief Engineer.
On August 13th in reply to Mr. Deans, Mr. Cooper wrote as follows : —
New York, August 13, 1907.
John Sterling Deans,
Chief Engineer.
Phoenix Bridge Company,
Phoenixville. Pa.
Dear Sir, — The information regarding chord splice 7 and 8 L, is so different from
the dimension sketch sent by Mr. McLure, I can take no action on this matter till the
exact facts are presented. Please have your resident engineer and Mr. McLure
re-examine this joint and send the exact condition of this rib, as to the amount of the
btnds and relation of the bearing surfaces to each other.
I don't see how one rib being bent, only, as stated in your letter, there can be a
complete and full bearing of these ribs.
Neither can I understand how pulling the ribs into line at the shop could bend it
out of line.
I will write Mr. McLure to-day to have a further investigation of this joint and
to report as promptly as possible.
Yours very truly,
THEODORE COOPER.
And on the same day '^[r. Cooper wrote Mr. McLure : —
154 — vol. i — 6
SSi ROYAL COMJilSSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
- . New York, Au^ist 13, 1907.
N. R. McLuRE,, Esq.,
Inspector for Erection, Quebec Bridge,
Xew Liverpool, P.Q., Canada.
Dear Sm, — Mr. Deans writes me that only one rib at joint 7 and 8 L is bent, and
still that there is a full and complete bearing, that the bend was no doubt put in the
chord in the shop before facing.
I have asked him to instruct his resident engineer to join with j-ou in making an ,
exact report, with dimensions of the conditions of this joint, with amount of bearing
and if it is a square bearing or askew.
In reference to the splicing of T-5 and T-5 O mentioned in your letter of 10th, I
do not care to interfere with the regular programme as I have not followed the various
actions of the loadings at different stages. Without going into it carefully, I think
there will be more compression at these points with more of the suspended span in
place.
Please report promptly regarding joint 7 and 8-L with all the facts.
Yours truly,
THEODOEE COOPER.
Mr. Deans wrote Mr. Cooper on 14th as follows : —
Ph(Enix\ille, Pa., August 14, 1907.
Theo. Cooper, Esq.,
Consulting Engineer,
45 Broadway, Xew York.
Dear Sir, — Chord splice 7 and 8 L — Your letter August 13th.
I will have a full and complete report made of this joint by Mr. ilcLure and Mr.
Birks and submit it to you earliest possible moment.
Yours truly,
JOHN STERLING DEANS. C.E.C.,
Chief Engineer.
On August 14 Mr. Cooper received the following letter of 12th from Mr. McLure: —
New Liverpool, P.Q., Canada,
August 12, 1907.
Mr. Theodore Cooper,
Consulting Engineer,
45 Broadway, New York.
Dear Sir, — I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of August 9 and have
noted what yoii say regarding the method of repairing splice between chord 7 and 8
cantilever arm west truss. We will not do anything with this then until the matter
has been arranged between yourself and 'Mr. Szlapka.
The reason I did not report at first as to how these chords got bent was because
there were many different theories here as to the cause, no one of which I was at that
time ready to accept. One thing I am reasonably sure of, and that is that the bend has
occurred since the chord has been under stress, and was not present when the chords
were placed. This being the case, the cause of the bend would seem to be the slight
overrunning in length of the bent rib in either chord 7 or 8. Owing to the fact that
these chords are faced on the rotary machine the four ribs at once, this would at first
seem to be out of the question, but it seems to me that after the first end of a chord
has been faced in turning it with the crane, to bring the other end into position, for
facing, it might be possible for one rib to work slightly by the others lougit\idiually,
without being noticed, and in spite of the latticing and thus cause a slight difference in
REPORT OF THE CU.M.MISSIOXERS 8?„
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
length. In fact, in taking the opening in the chord splices on the south anchor arm,
it has often been noticed that a considerable variation existed between the openings
of the different ribs at the same splice, which difference I was not able to account for
except by the above theory that, during transportation, and in the handling before
erection, some of the ribs have worked slightly in a longitudinal direction by each
other. In the case in question, of course, this must have happened between the time
of facing one end and the other. If this is correct, then it will be a pretty hard matter
to draw the splice hack into line with bolts, and our idea in suggesting that diaphragm
was to prevent this eccentricity from increasing, rather than to correct that already
there.
As I had supposed, the strike in force for the last three days of last week, has
been settled and work was again resumed this morning. A meeting of the ' Union '
was held Saturday night and enough of the discontented element had been lost so that
when the matter was brought to a vote the majority were found to be in favour of
returning to work under the original agreement. Those who were not in favour of
returning to work, however, are now leaving so that our force is reduced greatly on
both sides of the river.
Since writing the above I have discovered that splice between the chords 8 and 9
on west truss of south cantilever arm is in the same condition exactly as that between
7 and 8, except that the bend is only t\-in. instead of J-in. at the bottom, and runs out
so that on top this rib is in line as are the other three.
This is the same rib, and the bend is in the same direction as that reported for
the other splice. When it is decided in what way to treat the splice between chords
7 and 8 we will repair that between chords 8 and 9 in a similar manner.
Tours very truly,
N. E. McLUKE.
To this Mr. Cooper replied on August 15 as follows: —
New York, August 15, 1907.
N. E. McLuRE, Esq.,
Inspector Erection, Quebec Bridge,
New Liverpool, P.Q., Can.
Dear Sir, — None of the explanations for the bent chord stand the test of logic.
I have evolved another theorj-, which is a possible if not the probable one. These
chords have been hit by those suspended beams used during the erection, while they
were being put in place or taken down. Examine if you cannot find evidence of the
blow, and also make inquiries of the men in charge.
Yours very truly,
THEODOEE COOPEE.
A further report was made by Mr. McLure on August 16 : —
New Liverpool, P.Q., Canada, August 16, 1907.
Mr. Theo. Cooper,
Consulting Engineer, 45 Broadway,
New York.
Dear Sir, — Keferring to your letter of the 13th, regarding splice between 8-L and
7-L on south cantilever arm, you have no doubt by this time received my letter of
the 21st instant, giving my theory of the cause of this bend. These conditions are as
indicated in my report of August 6. Mr. Birks, the resident engineer for the Phoenix
Bridge Company, reported exactly the same thing, in somewhat different language to
Phoenixville, but Mr. Deans has evidently taken a different meaning from his report
154— vol. i— 6J
84 ROTAL COilillS^IOy O.V COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1903
than was intended. He evidently thinks that only one rib of one chord is bent,
Trhereas it is the same rib of each chord, as indicated in the sketch I sent you. There
is really nothing to add to the two letters I have already written regarding this bend,
except to say that all the four ribs have full bearing on each other, as indicated also
in the sketch of August 6. In order to verify our first reports, Mr. Birks and I made
a careful and more thorough measurement of this splice to-day, both top and bottom.
and I am inclosing a blue print of a sketch made as a result of these measurements.
It indicates practically the same condition as described in my first letter, except that
it is given more in detail (see drawing No. 30).
As to the cause of this bend, regarding which I wrote you on August 12. Mr.
Deans seems to think that it was put in in the shops; but that is because he did not
understand the conditions existing. Aside from the fact that it would be hardly
probable that these two ribs of diflferent chord sections should be bent the same way,
exactly the same amount in the shops to dimensions J-inch to f-inch less than called
for; I am reasonably sure, as I said before, that this condition did not exist before
the erection of these chords, as I have personally inspected every member yet erected
in this bridge thus far, except the bottom chords of anchor arm, on the cars just
before the erection, looking particularly for bends in ribs of compression members,
and wherever discovered have taken m€a.surements of the amounts and recorded them.
If these ribs then had been this much out of line before erecting, it would be well
nigh impossible to miss seeing them. Consequently the only way the bend could have
occurred, it seems to me, is that reported in my letter of August 12.
I trust that these explanations, with the inclosed sketch, will make the matter
entirely clear, ilr. Birks is sending same sketch to Phcenixville to-day.
Tours very truly,
N. R McLURE.
Mr. Deans also received a copy of this sketch, and wrote Mr. Cooper on August
20 as follows: —
Phcendcville, August 20, 1907.
Theo. Cooper, Esq.,
Consulting Engineer, 45 Broadway,
New York.
Dear Sir, — We have advice from your field that you received copy of sketch No.
28, giving further details in connection with cantilever chor 1 splica 7-L and 8-L.
You will notice that the two chords have a perfect bearing with each other at all ribs:
both chords having one bent rib and not one chord only as we first understood.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS.
Chief Engineer.
To which Mr. Cooper replied on August 21 as follows : —
New York, Aug-asi 21, I'JDT.
John Sterlino Deans, Esq.,
Chief Engineer, Phoenix Bridge Company,
Phcenixville, Pa.
T>A\u Siu. — I received copy of sketch of joint 7 and 8-L two days ago.
I wrote Mr. McLure last week, telling him none of the theories as to how this
bending occurred were logical. That my theory was a blow on this rib after the two
sections were in cuntact, and that it i)rol)ably was done in movinfj; tlie suspendtil
l>eams used in erecting. To examine carefull.v to see if he could find any evidence
of this; he has not yet reported. lie did report a similar bend at L-8 and f> west
truss in same rib but of less amount.
REPORT OF THE COilMISSIOXERS 85
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
I still believe this bend can be partly removed by use of long bolts with threads at
each end. outer rib being stiffened to prevent its bending. If it can be pulled nearer
straight, stays or bolts must be provided to hold it against future movement.
I cannot consent to let it go without further action as the rivets in the cover
splices would not satisfy the requirements to my mind.
Tours very truly,
THEODOEE COOPER.
This letter was acknowledged by Mr. Deans on August 23 : —
Phcenixville, Pa., August 23, 1907.
Theo. Cooper, Esq.,
Consulting Engineer, 45 Broadway,
New York.
Dear Sir, — Joint 7-L and 8-L south cantilever arm. Referring to your letter of
August 21, I notice you expect to hear again from Mr. McLure. As soon as you have
his report kindly let us hear from you again and oblige.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLrNTG DEANS.
Chief Engineer.
On August 26 Mr. Cooper wrote the following letter: —
New York, August 26, 1907.
John Sterling Deans.
Chief Engineer Phoenix Bridge Company,
Phcenixville, Pa.
Dear Sir. — Mr. McLure reports that he can find no evidence of the bent ribs
having been hit and does not think they could have been struck. This only makes the
mystery the deeper, for I do not see how otherwise the ribs could have been bent.
When convenient I would like to discuss with Mr. Szlapka the best means of
getting these ribs into safe condition to do their proper work.
Yours very truly,
THEODORE COOPER
This was acknowledged August 27 by Mr. Deans : —
Ph(EXLsville, Pa., August 2", 1907.
Theo. Cooper, Esq.,
Consulting Engineer, 45 Broadway,
New York.
Dear Sir, — Chord splice 7 and 8 cantilever arm, south side.
Replying to your letter of August 26th, I will have Mr. Szlapka call to see you
first opportunity, to discuss this question. He will wire you later the day he will be in
New York.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engineer.
This was the last that transpired with regard to the bent ribs at joint 7-L and 8-L
cantilever arm, and it is plainly indicated that no one except Mr. Cooper looked upon
this matter as serious or as indicating any eonsitutional weakness. It will be noted
that the bends at 7 and 8 were reported on August 6, the bends at 8 and 9 discovered
86 ROYAL COilillSSIOy 0-V COLLAPSE OF QVEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
on August 12, and that both bends were in the west truss, that previously from time
to time chords with ribs more or less wavy had been r^orted, and Mr. MeLure gave it
as his opinion that these bends were caused by stress since erection, because he was
sure they were straight when erected, while Mr. Deans thought the bends were made
in the shop.
While Mr. Deans, after Mr. Szlapka's return, gives certain information as to the
bL>nd in the 7 and 8 splice, Mr. Szlapka states that on his visit to the bridge
■he did not examine this splice, and further says that during none of his three visits
to the bridge did he examine any chords.
Mr. Kinloch states in his evidence that he did not notice the bends at the 7-L — 8-L
joints when the bottom cover plate was first removed, and that he felt confident that
these distortions took place after the removal of the cover plate.
It seems clear from the above that Mr. Cooper's statement that the delicacy of the
joints was not suiBciently appreciated by the Phoenix Bridge Company is substantiated.
•Mr. Szlapka was on the ground and made no special examination in the matter, and
and Mr. Deans endeavoured to throw the blame for the distortions entirely on the shop
work. No evidence has been shown to us to prove that Mr. De^ins had any grounds for
this assertion, and his inspector, Mr. Morris, was in possession of information that
indicated that there was no great probability that such an error could have escaped
detection. On August 20 Mr. Kinloch discovered that chord 8-R of cantilever arm
was bent, and afterwards found that 9-E and 10-R also showed distortion, he called
Mr. Birk's attention to this condition, but neither of them considered it of importance.
Mr. McLure was ill and did not see these bends until several days after they were
found (August 23), but Mr. Tenser was made aware of them. On August 23 the
joint at chords 5-6 R of cantilever arm was found to be off on one centre rib J-inch
at bottom, the offset running to nothing at top. Mr. Kinloch visited chord 8-R daily
for several days and imagined that the bend was becoming greater, all four ribs being
bent, but not alike.
The bend in chord 9-L anchor arm was discovered about 9.30 a.m., August 27,
to have greatly increased, it having been previously noted and being under observa-
tion. Owing to the fact that the 25th was a Sunday, and that there was practically
no work done on the 26th, it is doubtful whether this chord was examined between
the 24th and the 27th. Mr. Kinloch, who made tlie discovery, in his evidence
says : —
' Q. Please relate the occurrences following your discovery of the bent chord on
August 27?
' A. Immediately after discovering the bend I brought the matter to the atten-
tion of Mr. Tenser and Mr. Birks, and with them re-examined both chord A 9-L
and several other lower chord members. We did not know what to make of the
matter, and then went up to our office and arranged with Mr. McLure to have the
deflections of the suspicious chords measured. This measurement, which was made
by Birks, McLure and myself, showed the extent of the deflections; and their cause
and their ultimate result immediately became a matter of very active discussion.
Mr. Birks expressed himself definitely a.s being of opinion that there was no danger,
and endeavoured to persuade me that the bend had always been in the chord. Mr.
Tenser and I were uneasy, and considered the matter serious, and finally suggested
that Mr. McLure and Birks should go to New Tork and Phcenixville for advice. It
was considered that the matter could not be satisfactoril.v explained by telegraph or
telephone, and none of us expected immediate disaster. Mr. Birks and ^fr. McLure
did not welcome our suggestion, saying that they would only be laughed at on arrival,
and it was finally agreed to refer the matter of sending to headquarters to Mr. IToare,
who decided in favour of our suggestion, ^[r. Tloare visited the bridge on the
Wednesday and spent most of the da.v there. IIo appeared very anxious that I should
abandon my position of being positively convinced that the bend had occurred since
the erection of the cantilever arm was completed, and argued both thi< and some
REPORT OF THE COlIillSSIOyERS 87
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
possible methods of strengthening the chords by bracing several times with me. I
was somewhat excited and much annoyed at the unwillingness of all the engineers to
accept my statement of facts, and on both Wednesday and Thursday avoided further
discussion of the matter as much as possible. It was understood that Mr. McLure
would immediately wire me if Mr. Cooper took a serious view of the situation, but
this he failed to do. Mr. Birks, however, told me on the morning of the 29th instant
that he had been advised by 'phone from Phneni.wille that they had a record which
showed that the bends had been in the chord before it was shipped from Phoenixville,
and that he had just advised Mr. Hoare by telephone at the request of Mr. Deans to
that effect.'
As soon as the measurements above referred to were made, it was recognized by
Mr. Yenser and the inspectors that they were face to face with a crisis. Mr. Yenser
announced his intention of stopping erection until he had referred the matter to
Phoenixville. The measurements were plotted (drawings Xos. 28, 29 and 30 have
been prepared from these plottings). and were reported by mail to Mr. Cooper and to
Phoenixville, these reports being delivered on the morning of the 29th. Owing appar-
ently to anxiety already existing among the workmen (see evidence D. B. Haley) it
was not considered wise to use either telegraph or telephone. As suggested by Mr.
Kinloch, Mr. McLure reported the matter fully to Mr. Hoare on the evening of the
27th, the delay of about twelve hours being accounted for by the making and plotting
of the measurements and the necessity of using a personal messenger, as it was not
wished to report particulars over the telephone. It is clear that Mr. Yenser, Mr.
Kinloch and Mr. McLure were very much alarmed, but Mr. Birks could not be con-
vinced that the bends had recently taken place. He knew better than anyone el.se
on the work the care with which the calculations and designs had been made, he was
familiar with the experience and abilities of the designers, and could calculate that
the stresses were then far below the expected maximum. To engineers the force of
such reasoning is very great, and we do not consider that the confidence Mr. Birks
placed in his sujwriors was in any way unusual or unreasonable. There was no
misunderstanding, however, on his part; he realized that if the bends had not been
in the chord before it was erected the bridge was doomed, and although ilr. McLure
had evidence that the bends had increased more than one inch in the course of a
week, although !Mr. Kinloch was positive that the bends had very recently greatly"
increased, and although Mr. Clark stubbornly maintained that the chord was abso-
lutely straight when it left Chaudiere yard. Mr. Birks still strove to convince himself
that they must have been mistaken. Mr. Hoare evidently concluded that the matter
was too serious for him to settle by any offhand decision, and approved Mr. McLure's
mission to New York, wisely requiring that he should get all possible facts before
leaving, so that Mr. Cooper need not wait for further information on which to haset
a decision.
The text of Mr. McLure's report of August 27th is as follows : —
New LnxRPOOL, P.Q., August 27, 1907.
Mr. Theodore Cooper,
Consulting Engineer,
45 Broadway, New York.
Dear Sir, — I inclose sketches showing condition of bottom chord sections No.
' 606-9 L ' of south anchor arm and ' 621-9 R and 8 R ' of south cantilever arm, as
found from measurements made to-day by the Phoenix Bridge Company's assistant
engineer and myself, by stretching a line from batten plate to batten plate as indicated
on the sketches and measuring from this line held taut, to each rib, top and bottom.
It was noticed this morning that these chords were bent in this manner, as it is very
evident to one walking over them, and as it looked like a serious matter, we measured
them.
88 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
■ 7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Although a number of the chords originally had ribs more or less wavy, as I have
reported to you from time to time, it is only very recently that these have been in
this condition, and their present shape is undoubtedly due to the stress they are now
receiving. Only a little over a week ago, I measured one rib of the 9-L chord of anchor
arm here shown, and it was only |-inch out of line. Now it is 2J inches.
In the sketches the red indicates straight lines, and black ones the ribs of chords.
A top and bottom view is shown in each case. You will note that chords ' 606-9 L '
and ' 621-9 R ' have all ribs bent in same direction, while ' 621 8-R ' has its ribs bent
in reverse curves. These bends had become so apparent by to-day that the gangs
riveting at these points noticed them, and called Mr. Kinlocli's attention to them.
This matter is being reported in this mail, with sketches from the same measure-
ments, to the Phoenixville office, and the erection will not proceed until we hear from
you and from Phoenixville.
Yours very truly,
N. R. McLUEE.
Wednesday. August 28, was a day of waiting and uncertainty. Mr. Yenser had
changed his mind during the night and in the morning continued erection. The men
were uneasy and alarmed and the officials were anxiously awaiting instructions from
Phcenixville or New York. Mr. Yenser's decision to continue work, was laid before Mr.
Hoare, and Mr. Hoare, upon whom, as chief engineer, the final responsibility for
every step taken rested, decided that he had acted wisely. Mr. Hoare makes this clear
in the following letters to Mr. Cooper : —
Letterhead —
(The Quebec Bridge and Railway Company.)
Quebec, August 28, 1907.
Theodore Cooper, Esq.,
35 Broadway,
New York City.
Dear Sir, — I wired you to-day as under: —
Have sent Mr. McLure to see you early to-morrow to explain letter mailed yester-
day about anchor arm chords.
Also the following message to the Phoenix Bridge Company. ' Mr. McLure will
call to-morrow to explain Birks' letter re anchor arm chords, will see Mr. Cooper first.'
Regarding this matter I thought it best for McLure to go at once to be able to
explain matters and answer questions. He did not have much time for extended
investigation before leaving.
I have been at the bridge all day trying to get some evidence in connection with
the bending of the ribs in this chord. Mr. Kinloch noticed it for the first time
yesterday and all inspectors declare that no such pronounced distortion existed a few
weeks ago. Mr. McLure made measurements yesterday afternoon and brought them to
my house late last night, and stated that the erection foreman hastily couchided that he
would not continue erecting to-day, which alarmed me at the time. Upon arriving
at the work this morning he thought better of it and decided to go ahead, at the same
time asking mo Lf it would be all right. After ascertaining that the effects from
moving the traveller ahead and proceeding with the next panel would be so insignificant
I requested him to continue, as the moral effect of holding up the work would be very
bad on all concerned and might also stop the work for this season on account of
losing the men. From further investigation during the day I cannot help concluding
that the metal received some injury before it was ere<'ted, as the corresponding chord
in the same panel, and stressed the same, is in good condition. These panels are being
stressed to-day, approximately, about rtths of their niaxinuun, and it is difficult to
believe that this is the entire cause of the distortion. Now niul again a rib in certain
nr.I'OltT OF THK COMyi^SIOy'ERS 89
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
members is found to be a trifle longer than another, which, when compressed, might
cause a trifling kink in it. There are a few examples of this. The chord in question,
when being lifted to the cars in the storage yard broke loose from the grips, one end of
which fell a distance of 6 feet on to timber siUs, the other end fell a distance of 2 feet
on to a block of eyebars. In falling it fell over on its side breaking one of its angles
on the north end splice and twisting some of the lacing bars, all of which were renewed.
After this the inspectors reported the ribs perfectly straight. On account of this chord
falling on to two rigid higher pmints at ends, with no support in the middle but soft
material, the conclusion would be that the deflection would be downward ; as a matter
of fact, the evidence shows that it was in the opposite direction. Since Mr. McLure
left. Mr. Birks has made careful examination of the chord and states that the actual
bending commences at the south splice and was not confined entirely to the lengths
between the batten plates, where the lacing angles are used. As the foreman and
inspectors declare that these defects were not noticeable until recently, perhaps the
stress in this chord has made previous defects more pronounced. I thought I would
give you the above story from further investigation by to-night's mail to help you come
to some conclusion.
Yours truly,
E, A, HOAEE.
(Letterhead, tlie Qnebec Bridgie and Railway Company.)
Quebec, August 29, 1907.
Theodore Cooper, Esq.,
35 Broadway, New York City,
Dear Sir, — Mr. Birks has just called me up on the telephone from the bridge,
and states that he has received a mipssage from Phoenixville stating that they have
positive evidence that the chord was not straight before it left the shops. This
possibly clears up the mystery why the deflection was in tUe opposite direction to
what it should have been, due to its fall in the storage yard. Mr. Birks has wired
that information to Mr. McLure at your office. Mr. Birks further stated that he is
positive that the chord ribs w^ere more or less out of line when the splice at the south
end was riveted up in the bridge.
Yours truly,
E. A. HOAEE.
(Letterhead, the Qu^ec Bridge and Eailway Company,)
Quebec, September 2, 190".
Theodore Cooper, Esq.,
45 Broadway, New York City,
Dear Sir, — I thank you for replies to all our messages. I am sorry that you are
not well, and of course this appalling disaster has made you feel a thousand times
worse,
Mr. Berger will answer our purpose very well for the present. The investigating
commission may find it necessary later to interview you in New York, due notice of
which will be given you,
I wish to correct a misstatement in my letter to you of the 28th August, which
was written late and very hastily, to confirm telegram and conversation with Mr.
Birks about the chord under discussion. The statement in my letter, as follows: —
'Mr. McLure made measurements yesterday aftiernoon, and brought them to my
house late last night, and stated that the erection foreman hastily concluded that he
would not continue erecting to-day, which alarmed me at the time. Upon arriving
at the work this morning he thought bettter of it. and decided to go ahead, at the
same time asking me if it would be all right. After ase^rtsinins: that the effects
from moving the traveller ahead and proceeding with the next panel would be so
W liOTAL COMMISSIOy O.V COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
insignificant, I requested him to continue, as the moral efiect of holding up the work
would be very bad on all concerned, and might also stop thte work for this season on
account of losing the men,'
is to some extent a misstatement of facts and not clearly stated, due to too much
haste, and which I wish now to correct as under: —
' Upon arriving at the work that morning the foreman told m'e that ho had con-
sidered it during the night, and had already moved the traveller forward, asking
myself, Mr. ilcLure and Mr. Birljs if we thought that what he had done would do
any harm. We all thought that it would not, as they stated it would only add 50
pounds to the square inch to the chord in question. We all thought at the time that
to discontinue the work would entirely stop the work for this season, as the men
would not wait and would go elsewhere to prepare for the winter. As stated in my last
letter, strictly speaking, I did not request the foreman to continue the work, as he
had already done so; at the same time we thought there was no immediate danger
in adding so small a load. This latter more clearly states the conversation betwieen
lis, and I am sorry that I have misstated, in my hurry, one or two points which
would be more or less confusing.
Tours truly,
E. A. HOAEE.
It was clear that on that day the greatest bridge in the world was being built with-
out there being a single man within reach who by experience, knowledge and ability
was competent to deal with the crisis. Mr. Yenser was an able superintendent, but
he was in no way qualified to deal with the question that had arisen. Mr. Birks, well-
trained and clear headed, lacked the experience that teaches a man to properly value
facts and conditions; and Mr. Hoare, conscious that he was not qualified to give
judgment, simply assented to the courses of action that had been determined on by
Messrs. Yenser and Kinloch and made no endeavour to make a personal examination
of the suspected chords.
Some measurements were made to test the stability of the main pier, but no one
seems to have thought of testing the span for alignment or levels, and, above all, to
measure the chords again to see if they showed any increase of deflection. Mr. Hoare
discussed some means of bracing the chords, but decided to postpone action until Mr.
Cooper was heard from. At Mr. Hoare's request, Mr. Birks inspected the chord A
9-L and the A-L 8-9 joint carefully and his observations tended to reassure both Mr.
Hoare and himself, as he thought, that he found evidence of original crookedness in
the chord.
His report to Phoenixville which was received on August 30 re&ds as follows
(Exhibit 58) :—
New Liverpool, August 28, 1907.
The Phcenix Bridge Comp.\ny,
Phfcnixville, Pa.
Deak Sirs. — I have made a furthir investigation of chord 9 A, and beg to report
following additional data. The bend in the chord starts at the faced splice at the
shore end and not at the edge of the splice batten. It appears from this that at least
a large portion of the bend was in the chord when the top and bottom splice battens
were riveted early in June. This and the fact that the lacing angles are not disturbed
leads me to believe that the ribs were bent before erection in spite of the fact tliat Mr.
Clark and Kinloch think all ribs were straight when the chord was repaired. From
the evidence so far, I do not think we are justified in assuming it to be a fact that
the ribs of any of the chords have buckled since erection, and ^Ir. Yenser has come to
the same conclusion.
Yours truly.
A. 11. BIRKS.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSlOyERS 91
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
After ho had made his examination, Mr. Birks called Mr. Kinloch and waited at
track level, while Mr. Kinloch went down to the chord and checked Mr. Berks' observa-
tions. After careful discussion with Mr. Kinloch of what was then done we are
forced to conclude that the sketch in Mr. Birks' letter shows only his personal idea of
the shape and extent of the existing distortion and cannot be considered as furnishing
data on which to base engineering conclusions, as no actual measurements were taken.
On August 29 Sfr. Birks' report of the 27th inst. was received at Phoenixville
and was immediately discussed by Messrs. Deans. Szlapka and Milliken. It was
finally decided that it was safe for the work to proceed and a telephone conversation
took place between ilessrs. Milliken and Yenser and another between Messrs. Deans
and Birks. Mr. Szlapka had made some calculations and Mr. Birks reported his
observations of August 28. Messrs. Yenser and Birks were assured that the office
approved their action in continuing work of erection and Mr. Birks was told to tell
Mr. Hoare that the bends had been in the chords before they left Phoenixville. This
Mr. Birks did.
Mr. Deans also telegraphed Mr. Hoare as follows : —
Phceneville, Pa., August 29, 1907.
E. A. Hoare, Esq.,
Chief Engineer Quebec Bridge Company,
Quebec, Canada.
' McLure has not reported here ; the chords are in exact condition they left
Phcrnixville in and now have much less than maximum luad.'
Mr. Hoare had telegraphed to both Mr. Cooper and Deans on August 28, advising
them of Mr. McLure's mission. Mr. Deans has since explained that his telegram did
not refer to the chords measured on the 27th inst., but after considering the circum-
stances we are entirely satisfied that Mr. Hoare was justified in thinking that it did,
and in so doing he was confirmed by Mr. Birks' telephone message previously received.
From the time that these assurances were received, anxiety at the bridge practi-
cally ceased, and there is no evidence that any further measurements were made to
determined the movements of the suspected chords. As Mr. Hoare expressed it, ' I
felt quite comfortable that day about it. I knew it could not be long before the matter
would be taken up.'
Shortly after 11 a.m. on August 29 Mr. Cooper reached his office and found Mr.
McLure there. After a brief discussion Mr. Cooper wired to PhoenLxville as follows : —
New York, August 27, 1907.
Phcenix BRroGE Company, 12.16 p.m.
Phoenixville, Pa.
Add no more load to bridge till after due consideration of facts. McLure will
be over at five o'clock.
This message was received at Phoenixville at 1.15 p.m. Mr. Cooper has explained
in his evidence that he was not aware at the time that erection was proceeding, Mr.
McLure having advised him to the contrary, and that he telegraphed to Phoenixville
instead of to Quebec because he thought action would be more promptly secured by
so doing.
Mr. McLure had promised to wire Mr. Cooper's decision to Mr. Kinloch immedia-
tely, but he did not do so.
Mr. Deans reached his office about 3 p.m., and found Mr. Cooper's telegram there.
He arranged for Mr. Szlapka and Mr. Milliken to be on hand to meet Mr. McLure,
but otherwise took no action. After Mr. McLure arrived there was a brief discussion,
during which Mr. McLure mentioned that he had received a wire from Mr. Birks
giving him the result of that gentleman's observations on August 28. It was decided
to postpone action until the morning, and to await the arrival of Mr. Birks' letter of
August 28. This decision was made almost at the minute that the bridge fell.
92 ROYAL COilillSSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII,, A. 1908
As a conclusion reached from the evidence and from our own studies and tests,
we are satisfied that the bridge fell because the latticing of the lower chords near the
main pier was too weak tx) carry the stresses to which it was subjected ; but we also
believe that the amount of those lattice stresses is determined by the deviation of the
lines of centre of pressure, from the axis of the chords, and this deviation is largely
affected by the conditions at the ends of the chords. We must, therefore, conclude
that although the lower chords 9-L and 9-R anchor arm. which, in our judgment,
were the first to fall, failed from weakness of latticing; the stresses that caused the
failure were to some extent due to the weak end details of the chords, and to the loose-
ness, or absence of the splice plates, arising partly from the necessities of the method
of erection adopted, and partly from a failure to appreciate the delicacy of the joints,
and the care with which they should be handled and watched during erection. We
conclude from our tests that owing to the weakness of the latticing, the chords were
dangerously weak in the body for the duty they would be called upon to do. We have
no evidence to show that they would have actually failed under working conditions
had they been axially loaded and not subject to transverse stresses arising from weak
end details and loose connections. We recognize that axial loading is an ideal condi-
tion that cannot be practically attained, but we do not consider that sufficient effort
was in this case made to secure a reasonable approach to this condition. The Phoenix
Bridge Company showed indifferent engineering ability in the design of the joints,
and did not recognize the great care with which these should be treated in the field.
We consider that Mr. Deans was lacking in judgment and in sense of responsi-
bility when he approved of the action of Mr. Tenser in continuing erection, and when
he told Mr. Birks and Mr. Hoare that the condition of the chords had not changed
since they left Phoenixville.
No evidence has been produced before the commission in proof of the correctness
of this statement about the chords, and Mr. Szlapka's calculations as stated in the
following letter showed that the rivets were even then loaded to their maximum
specified stress of 18,000 pounds per square inch.
Montreal, January 24, 1908.
Messrs. Phcenk Bridge Company,
Phoenixville, Pa.
Gentlemen, — Will you please file with the commission a copy of the calculations
made by Mr. Szlapka on August 29, 1907, and which are referred to on pages 967 and
968 of the evidence.
As we are nearing the completion of our report, we would esteem it a favour if
you would have this information sent to us immediately.
It is possible that you may not have an exact copy of these calculations, but no
doubt they can be duplicated, and Mr. Szlapka's certificate to this effect will be suffi-
cient.
Yours truly,
HENRY HOLGATE.
PH(ENIX^■ILLE, Pa., January 31, 1908.
Henry Holgate, Esq.,
Chairman, Royal Commission,
Montreal, Canada.
Dear Sir, — Replying to your letter of January 24, I inclose herewith letter from
Mr. Szlapka of this date, giving calculations similar to that made on August 29,
regarding chord 9-L south cantilever arm.
Yours truly,
JNO. STERLING DEANS,
Chief Engine* r.
REPORT OF the: COMMISSIOyERS 93
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Phcenix^ille, Pa.. January 31, 1908.
John Sterling Deans, Esq.,
Chief Engineer, The Plwnix Bridge Company,
Phcenixville, Pa.
Dear Sir, — Eeferrinp to Mr. Holgate's letter of January 24 addressed to the
Phoenix Bridge Company, I beg to give you below the calculations similar to the one
made on August 29, 190", referring to chord 9-L south anchor arm.
Taking IJ-inch as the average reported curvature of chord 9-L we have: —
X 12 = 780° X 18,000 x lj-inch = 21.060.000 inch lbs.
4
W
: 61,600 lbs.
Stress in each lattice S = — ^ — r— =21,600 lbs.
4
Yours truly,
THE PHCEXIX BEIDGE COMPAXT.
Per P. L. SzLAPKA.
The theory underlying these calculations is very questionable, but it was adopted
in the design of the bridge (See Appendices Nos. 16 and IT) and we cannot under-
stand why its warning was so entirely disregarded in the face of the consequences
that might result.
With reference to Mr. Cooper's telegram, Mr. Deans knew that he was in posses-
sion of later information from the bridge than had reached Mr. Cooper and therefore
decided to wait for Mr. McLure and afterwards for the arrival of Mr. Birks' letter of
August 28 before taking action. The whole incident points out the need of a com-
petent engineer in responsible charge at the site.
Mr. Hoare was the only senior engineer who was able to reach the structure
between August 27 and August 29. He was fully advised of the facts yet did not
order Mr. Tenser to discontinue erection which he had power to do; we consider that
he was in a much better position than any other responsible official to fully realize the
events that had occurred, and his failure to take action must be attributed to indecision
and to a habit of relying upon Mr. Cooper for instructions.
We are satisfied that no one connected with the werk was expecting immediate
disaster, and we believe that in the case of Mr. Cooper his opinion was justified.
He understood that erection was not proceeding; and without additional load the
bridge might have held out for days.
Our tests have satisfied us that no temporary bracing such as that proposed by
Mr. Cooper could have long arrested the disaster; struts might have kept the chords
from bending, but failure from buckling and rivet shear would soon have occurred.
The following drawings may be consulted in connection with this Appendix : —
Drawing No. 1. General plan of site and vicinity.
" 2. General dimensions of bridge members.
" 5. Erection marks on bridge members.
" 7. Dates of riveting.
" 9. Sections of bridge members and erection stresses.
* 10. Plan showing positions of eye witnesses.
" 1.3. Loading of bridge on August 29.
" 28, 29, 30. Chord bends measured on August 6, 12, and 27.
« 36. Detail of chord Xo. A-9.
94 ROIAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Our conclusions are based to a considerable extent on the facts set forth in the
following appendices : —
Appendix No. 13. Full sized column tests.
" 15. Special tests made in connection with the Quebec Bridge.
" 16. The theory of built up compression members.
" 17. A comparison of chord designs.
" 18. A discussion of the specifications.
LIST OF ORDERS FOR QUEBEC BRIDGE.
Series D. Anchorage.
CO. 700. Eyebars and pins.
" 701. Plate girders and I-beams.
Approach Spans at each end of Bridge.
CO. 702. 2-210' 0" C of E. pins deck spans for D. Tr. Ey. 2 roadways and 2
sidewalks.
" 703. 2 bents for above spans, about 50' high.
" 704. 3 full sizes test eyebars.
" 705. Anchorage for 1-214' south approach span.
Series E. main river bridge.
CO. 600. Sundry field charges, such as rents, watching, engineering work, &c.
" 601. Field plant charges: steel traveller, tools, engines, rope, blocks, cars,
boats, &c., and only such fiei 1 labor as is used in making tools.
Anchorage.
CO. 602. Eyebars and pins for anchorage for south approach.
" 603. " " north approach.
" 604. Towers and bracing for south anchorage.
" 605. " " north anchorage.
2,500- foot Anchor Anns.
" 606. Trusses and bracing for south anchor arm.
" 607. " " north anchor arm.
" 608. Eyebars for trusses for south anchor arm.
" 609. " " north anchor arm.
" 610. Pins for trusses for south anchor arm.
" 611. " " north anchor arm.
" 612. Centre posts and bracing for south pier.
" 613. " " north pier.
" 614. Shoes and pedestals for south pier.
" 615. " " north pier.
" 616. Plate floorbeams, stringers and bracing, south anchor arm.
" 617. " " " north anchor arm.
" 618. Trussed floorbeams for south anchor arm.
" 619. " " north anchor arm.
" 620. Full size test eyebars for CO. 602 and 603.
2,562-foot 6-in. Cantilever Arms.
" 621. Trusses and bracing for south cantilever arm.
" 622. " " north can I i lever arm.
" 623. Eyebars for trusses for soath cantilever arm.
" 624. " " north cantilever arm.
" 625. Pins for trusses for south cantilever arm.
" 626. " " north cantilever arm. •
" 627. Plate floorbeams and stringers and bracing, south cantilever arm.
" 628. " " '■ north cantilever arm.
" 029. Trussed floorbeams for south cantilever arm.
" 630. " " north cantilever arm.
REPORT OF THE COilillSSIONESS 95
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
675-foot Suspended Span.
" 631. Trusses and bracing for southern half of suspended span.
" 632. " " northern half of suspended span.
" 633. Eyebars for southern half of suspended span.
" 634. " northern half of suspended span.
" 635. Pins for southern half of suspended span.
" 636. " northern half of suspended span.
" 637. Floorbeams and stringers for south half of suspended span.
" 638. Floorbeams and bracing for north half of suspended span.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
APPENDIX No. 12.
A DESCRIPTION OF THE FALLEN STRUCTURE.
The Commission began its inquiry by examining a number of workmen who were
understood to have seen the disaster.
A study of this portion of the evidence brings out clearly one or two main facts
but with an almost complete absence of important detail. This is not surprising,
when the suddenness with which the disaster came and the few seconds occupied by
the downfall are considered. The evidence of Huot, who ran from the second panel
of the anchor arm to the office at his topmost speed, enables us to fix the duration
of the fall at not above 15 seconds. The distance is almost 100 yards, and the floor
was already opening between the end of the anchor arm and the approach span as he
passed that point. It is not surprising that accurate evidence was not obtainable,
as every man's first thought was of self-preservation, and there was no time to con-
sider or realize what was happening.
The records of the inspectors, which show the deformations that were taking
place during the month preceding the accident, are corroborated by the witnesses,
D. B. Haley and Alexandre Beauvais, the latter in particular testifying to the
' working ' of the ribs both at joint A 9-10 R and at joint A 9-10 L. It should be
noted that neither of these joints gave way at the time of the accident, and that
injuries that they have received are due to the fall itself.
The collapse came very suddenly. The witnesses who were on the bridge outside
of the main pier, Haley, Nance, Hall, Davis and Laberge, aU testify that they had
no warning of any kind, and several of the men who were working on the ground
directly under the anchor arm, were caught b^ the falling structure and killed, when
by moving not more than 50 feet they would have saved themselves.
The cantilever arm and suspended span fell as a whole. The witnesses Wickizer
and Esmond, both of whom were in good position for observation (see drawing No.
10), testify to the whole cantilever arm falling as one piece, and the former adds that
the outer end of the cantilever arm swung slightly to the east, so that he could see
directly between the trusses from his position on the jetty on the north shore.
The big traveller fell as if it was part of the cantilever arm, and did not upset,
at least until after the arm had struck the waters. The accident was immediately
96 ROYAL COilUlSSIOy O.V COLLAPHE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
followed by the rising of a cloud of dust and spray that obscured everything, and
there is no evidence concerning the final movement of the traveller ; the witnesses Hall
and Laberge, testify that it did not upset, to their knowledge. The tops of the centre
posts moved slowly riverwards and dropped suddenly, when the centre post feet kicked
off the pedestals on the main pier; the post feet were forced southwards. The witness
Chase states that he saw these movements.
The anchor arm broke near the centre, and in its first movement appeared to rise
in the neighbourhood of the break, and then fall; the witness Culbert states that he
observed this.
James Johnson testified that he thought the lower chord of the anchor arm near
the third panel from the main pier struck the ground first ; and Delphis Lajeunesse,
clinging to the west truss of the anchor arm as it fell, noticed that the trusses
appeared to be tippling over towards the east.
The anchor arm fell almost without movement to the right or to the left. Mr.
Kinloch noted that the portal posts sank down and, using his own simile ' as if they
were ice pillars whose ends were rapidly melting away.' In other words, as he stood
near the centre line of the track and opposite the office, the end posts while falling
straight away from him, appeared to only settle down.
ilr. Cudworth's evidence indicates that the trusses first tippled slightly to the
east, he being able to see only the top portions of the centre posts and the adjoining
members, then followed an outward movement similar to that described by the witness
Chase, and finally everything disappeared suddenly from sight.
Out of eighty-six men on the work only eleven escaped with their lives.
The Commission commenced its examination of the wreck by instructing the
inspectors and engineers of the Phoenix Bridge Company and of the Quebec Bridge
Company to go over the debris of the anchor arm and to paint in large letters on
each main member its erection mark (See drawing No. 5).
The wrecked structure in places was in so chaotic a condition that even these
men, who had been familiar with the appearance of every piece of the anchor arm
for nearly two years, had difficulty in identifying many of the members.
The photographs, twenty-four in all, that are filed as Exhibit 34. were taken as
soon as the marking was completed.
Surveys of the wreckage and adjoining ground were arranged for, the results of
these surveys being shown on the following drawings : —
Drawing No. 10. — Plan showing position of witnesses at the time of the fall.
Drawing No. 14. — Cheek measiu'ements to determine whether any movement of
the main pier had taken place.
Drawing No. 15. — Positions occupied by camera when the photographs in Exhibit
34 were taken.
Drawing No. 16. — Diagram of fall — east truss.
Drawing No. 17. — Diagram of fall — west truss.
Drawing No. IS. — Diagram of fall — floor beams and stringers.
Drawing No. 19. — Diagram showing the shape of chords A 9-L and A 9-11 after
the accident.
Mr. Walter J. Francis, M. Can. Soc. C.E., was requested to make an examination
of the wreckage and to prepare such descriptions and photographs of selected bridge
details as would be of service in assisting the work of the Commission.
Twenty-three photographs taken by Mr. Francis are filed as Exliibit No. 124.
A nuniV)cr of jihotngriiphs from ilr. Kinloch's collection are filed as Exhibit No.
36. These photos, show clearly the details of several intricate intersection
points, and give an excelliMit idea of the demands that this bridge made upon the
technical skill of the designing officers and upon the resources of the manufacturers.
When examining tlicse photographs it should be remenbcred that the component parts
of the structure were never put together until finally erected; every detail was planned
liEPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 97
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
by the designers anil made without trial or fitting, prior to erection in place. Several
photographs of portions of the wreck are included in Exhibit 35, these having been
made by Mr. Kinloch at the request of the Commission.
The measurements to the piers showed that the masonry of the main pier had risen
very slightly when relieved of the load of the superstructure ; otherwise it had
remained exactly in its original position. The results of these surveys were accepted
as proof that thure were no defects in the substructure or foundations to contribute
to the disaster. (Drawing Xo. 14.)
The plans of the wreckage (Drawings Nos. 16, 17 and 18) show :
(1) That there was practically no lateral movement of the anchor arm, lower
chords and floor system while falling. This we regard as a proof of simultaneous
failure in the two trusses.
(2) That there were opposite longitudinal movements of those lower chords and
parts of floor system that were to the north and south respectively of the joint 8-9
anchor arm. (See Drawings 16 and 17.) This is proof that the initial failure took
place close to this joint.
(3) That there was an almost complete destruction of the chords 9 A-L and 9
A-K, that of 9 A-R being the more striking and peculiar. Views of these chords are
given in photos Nos. 3, 11 and 12, in Exhibit 84, and in Nos. 18, 19, 20, 21 in Exhibit
35, but their condition after the accident will be more fully realized by reference to
Drawings Nos. 18 and 19.
We cannot describe the failure better than by quoting the evidence of Mr. Kin-
loch, whose knowledge of the structure both before and after its fall is exceptional.
(See Evidence.)
' Q. Please describe the movements that you think took place when the bridge was
falling ? — A. The initial failure I think occurred in both lower chords 2^0. 9 anchor
arm simultaneously and in the latticed portion of the chords hut not in the same way
in both cJiords. No. 9-L which had previously been observed to be bent deflected slow-
ly and transferred some of its load to 9-R until that chord burst with a sudden
fracture accompanied by the loud report testified to_by some witnesses. The sudden
and complete collapse of 9-R, whilst 9-L was slowly yielding, accounts for the slight
swing of the cantilever arm downstream, and for the tendency of the upper portions
of the anchor arm to fall in the same direction. At the moment of collapse the thrust
of the cantilever arm forced the feet of the main posts ofi the pedestals and the shoes
of the main posts were the first part of the structure to strike the ground. Whilst
they were in the air the extremities of the stub chord on the cantilever arm struck the
inside coping of the main pier a glancing blow. When the shoes struck the ground
that part of the C.P. 6 above the batten plates failed and simultaneously the hori-
zontal strut connecting the two shoes was destroyed. The transverse diagonal bracing
between the two posts at the bottom remained intact for an instant and almost the
entire weight of the main post and of the top chord was concentrated upon it, causing
the bracing to act as a toggle and to force the shoes and the feet of the main post
out sideways. This is shown by the holes made in the ground. This action threw the
bottom portions of the centre post out of the vertical and permitted the feet of the
P-4 posts with the broken ends of A-8 attached to them to pass inside the centre posts,
some part of P-4-L striking C.P. 6-L heavily as it fell. During the fall chords 10-R and
L cantilever arm which had probably broken loose when the stub chords struck the
pier rested for a moment on top of the pedestals and were then partially upended and
thrown over on their sides, as they now lie on top of the pier, by the wreckage of S.P.
5 and of the pieces connected to it. Chords 9 of the cantilever arm did not strike the
pier before they reached the ground although they now lie with their ends just against
the face of the masonry which is slightly marked. Chord 9-R of the cantilever arm is
lying in the water with its two inner ribs practically straight and its two outer ribs
buckled back in a V-shaped loop about 18 or 20 inches long at a point about 20 feet
154 — vol. i— 7
98
ROYAL COMMISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD Vll., A. 1908
from the shop splice, the ends being parallel to the inner ribs. Chord 9-L is buckled
at about 15 feet from the field splice in all four ribs to a shape similar to that shown
by A-l-R but with a smaller deflection ?
The warnings of coining disaster are thus referred to by Mr. David Eeeves. (See
Evidence) : When the compression members began to yield at several places one after
another as we can now see, and the whole bridge was at the verge of collapse, as after-
wards developed, &c., &c.' This statement calls for comment.
TVe do not consider that any of the difficulties with lower chord members noted
previous to August 1, 1907, were of serious moment with the possible exception of the
fall of chord A-9-L in the storage yard ; the effect of that fall upon the latticing of
the member was not determined, and in fact was practically impossible of determina-
tion.
Our investigations at Belair yard have convinced us that the several discrepancies
noted in the chords during the eai'lier stages of erection were probably due to errors
of shop work and, as Mr. Cooper said, were not serious. The waviness of the ribs
which was often recorded by the inspectors might not produce serious results, its
importance being dependent upon the strength of the latticing. (See Appendix No.
11). The presence of these bends would materially increase the stresses in the latticing,
but we have no evidence to show that there was exceptional waviness in the chords
that afterwards deflected most seriously.
The erection of the suspended span did not begin until the middle of July, 1907,
and the building out of this span was accompanied by a rapid increase of the stresses
in the anchor and cantilever arms. On the day of the disaster the most heavily
stressed members (see drawing Xo. 13) were as follows : —
Member.
Panel Xo.
Arm.
Stress.
Upper Chord
7
8
9
10
7
8
9
10
5
6
7
8
9
10
7
8
9
10
5
4
Anchor
17,200 lbs.
17,230
18,200
18,200
18,850
18,920
18,110
18,100
17,010
17,100
18,040
17,830
17,910
17,560
17,730
17,430
17,880
17,080
17,080
17,160
per sq. in.
It
II
II
Cantilever
„
II
Anchor
Lower Chord •.
II
II
II
Cantilever
II
Main Diagonal
By the beginning of August the effect of these growing stresses on the weak end
details of the chords became perceptible, and by the middle of August the chords began
to show signs of failure in the body. On August 6 the deflection of joint 7-8-L canti-
lever arm was noted, and Mr. Kinloch has expressed his conviction that this deflection
occurred after the lower cover plate was removed. The design of the chord ends and
joints was such that it is probable that Mr. Kinloch's conclusion is correct, and that
REPORT OF IDE COilMISSIONERS 99
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
the removal of the lower cover plate weakened the joiut appreciably. Any distortion
at the joint would throw considerable stresses into the latticing unless the batten
plates were of great strength and stiffness. On August 12 the inspectors reported a
similar deflection at joint 8-9-L cantilever arm. On August 8 the workman, Haley,
noticed that the ribs at joint 8-9-R, cantilever arm, did not match properly, and on
August 28 he noticed that the splice plates were bulging. This was noticed by Mr.
Kinloeh also, who was confident that they were all right when ri vetted. Haley also saw
thiit chord S-R, cantilever arm, close to the joint just mentioned, was bending in all
its ribs. The workman, Beauvais, noticed, during the two weeks previous to the acci-
dent, that the inner ribs at the joint 9-10-R, anchor arm, were gradually coming
together, but does not seem to have reported this. About August 20 Mr. Kinloeh noticed
that chords 8, 9 and 10-R, cantilever arm, were wavy in the body, but was not sure
whether the bends were shop bends or not ; he consulted Mr. Birks and they agreed
that these waves were of no importance. On August 25 the deflection at joint 5-C-R,
cantiVver arm. was discovered. On August 27 the bending in chords 9-L, anchor arm,
and chords 8 and 9-R, cantilever arm, had become so noticeable that they were
measured in detail, and reported to both headquarters. Mr. McLure's records note a
deflection of |-inch in chord A-9-L about one week previous to August 27. This reci-
tal shows that the chords near the main pier both in the anchor arm and in the canti-
lever arm were under close observation for at least a week previous to the accident.
These were the most heavily stressed compression members in the bridge.
We are satisfied that the structure was being closely watched and that had there
been noticeable weakness at any points it would have been detected and recorded.
There is no evidence of the existence of weak details except on the lower chord.
We therefore conclude both from the evidence of the witnesses, and from that of
the wreckage, that the initial failure occurred in chords 9 — R and 9 — L, anchor arm.
Our opinion is that these two chords failed almost simultaneously by rupture of
latticing or shearing of lattice rivets (see Appendix No. 17) and that the buckling
of the ribs followed immediately. The cantilever arm commenced to drop, turning
around the feet of the centre posts, and raising the anchor arm near the point of
rupture. When the top of the centre post had leaned over perhaps 30 feet, (this
estimate being made by the witness Chase) the centre post feet kicked off the ped-
estals, and both anchor and cantilever arms crashed down. The right truss of the
anchor arm apparently fell faster than the left truss, for the top members of the
arm have fallen towards the right, and the witness Delphie Lajeunesse noticed such
a movement. The stub chords on the cantilever side which were attached to the
centre post feet struck the coping of the masonry heavily, the marks of the contact
on these chords indicating that the right post was falling the faster. The cantilever
arm was controlled in its fall by the stiffness of the centre post, and by the resistance
of the upper chord, and did not drop suddenly until the feet of the centre posts kicked
off the pier. The centre post feet reached the ground first, carrying inwards before
them the lower parts of panels 9 and 10 anchor arm; the remainder of the anchor
arm was swung forward by the action of the upper chord in straightening out, under
the pull of the cantilever arm, and moved around the top of the anchor pier as a fixed
point. The damage to the lower chords from the fall was the more severe because
the ends of the posts landed in the foundation pits dug for the falsework, and the
chords themselves struck on the high ground between the pits. The forces that
pushed the centre post feet out into their present position, as described by Mr. Kin-
loeh, are a matter of conjecture; the holes dug by the feet in their fall are plain to
view and are partly filled by sections 5 of the centre posts which are standing upright
in them. As these sections are comparatively little injured and have not dug down
into the ground, it is evident that they struck with but little force and that the
ground was already shaped to receive them. The force of the fall was probably
largely absorbed in the wrecking of sections 6 of the centre posts.
154 — vol. i — "i
100 ROTAL COilillSSIOX ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
No description in words can give as correct an idea of the wreckage as will be
obtained by a study of the photographs in Exhibit 34; the principal feature to be
noted is the comparatively uninjured condition of all members except some of the
lower chords, posts and sub-posts which by reason of their position had to bear the
larger portion of the forces developed by the fall, and completely failed under them.
All connections except the splices of the lower chords proved to be as strong and
in most cases much stronger than the body of some of the members they connected.
The tension members, laterals and floor system call for little comment ; the com-
pression members and their splices have shown tnemselves to be the weakest parts
of the structure.
The following is a statement of Mr. Walter J. Francis' observations of the
wrecked structure, and which clearly describes certain phases of it: —
' The condition of the posts throughout may be said to be largely the result of
the unyielding strength of the top chord eye-bar system, while the condition of the
other members may be regarded as due to their fall to the earth and upon one another.
' Of more than 700 eye-bars in the wreck, only one has been fouud ^rhich has
broken, and on all remaining ones there is not a sign of a crack or failure of any
kind, notwithstanding the extreme punishment to which these members have been
subjected. The broken bar, lit-inch x 15-inch, is undoubtedly the result of a heavy
blow on the edge, about 18 inches from the centre of the pin. The bar parted about
4 feet from the centre of the pin, in acting as a beam. The fracture is fine grained,
and although not of the highest class it would certainly be rated as good.
' Of about 60 pins in the accessible parts of the debris only one has any evidence of
having been distorted. This pin is 12 inches in diameter, 8 feet 6 inches long, bored
2| inches diameter through its axis lengthwise. Its bend consists in having one end
turned up about 5 inches, the curve being about IJ feet from this end. As this pin
is at the joint where the eye-bar above referred to was broken, its condition is
undoubtedly due to the same cause as that which broke the eye-bar.
' Speaking generally, the compression members throughout have suffered severely.
They were generally composed of parallel laminated webs. In the maximum size of
ohonls there were four vertical webs. Each web consists of four plates ranging from
4?-inch to il-inch in thickness, and one angle on each edge 8-inch x 6-inch x il-inch
for outside webs, or 8-ineh x 3i-inch x 11-inch for inside webs, the 8-inch leg being
vertical. The finished width back to back of angles was 5-t inches. The maximum
length of th&se webs was about 57 feet. At each end the four webs are connected
together top and bottom by cover plates varying from 6 feet to 10 feet long, the space
between the cover plates being latticed with 4-inch x 3-inch x |-inch angles. The
tower post.s had four parallel webs, while in other posts there were two webs only,
lattice<l for the greater part of their length with 3-inch x 3-inch x |-inch angles, set
at about 60 degrees. Speaking generally, at and near the panel points of all these
members, there were either internal diaphragms, or cover-plates, or both. Throughout
the middle length of the members there were none. Tn the wreck the compression
members are distorted in every conceivable manner, excepting at the panel points,
where, as will be observed from the general photographs, the portions having internal
diaphragms or outside covers are yot comparatively straight after enduring the forces
of the fall. Between these stiffened portions the lattice work is torn, the laminated
webs are parte<l, and the rivets sheared and pulled in every possible way.
' The component parts of the various built up numbers have been destroyed by
all sorts of complications, as will be seen by reference to the accompanying photo-
graphs, to which descriptions are attached. These in themselves form an interesting
study. In the selection of the '23 photographs attached hereto the intention was to
choose only those which are typical of the general damage to the various pieces and
those fractures which have been produced by simple and clearly defined forces. There
are innumerable examples of destruction under extremely romplieated sets of forces,
1
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 101
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
but these have no special scientific interest beyond the proof of the quality of the
material.
' The evidence of beat produced by blows and friction is in many instances quite
marked; one case was noted where the steel had been fused and drawn into shreds
and small globules.
' Although quite secondary to the main members of the bridge, it is interesting
to note that the l|-inch anchor bolts holding the vertical steel in position on the
anchor pier drew bodily out of tie masonry. These bolts had the ordinary surface of
a steel rod, were swedged on the opposite sides every 3-inch and were 4 feet 6 inches
long. The holes in which they were set were drilled in the granite masonry just large
enough to admit the bolt. They are said to have been grouted in with pure Portland
cement. In every case where they received direct tension they pulled bodily out of
the masonry.
' It is almost beyond comprehension that both the main pier and anchor pier
should have withstood the shocks of the accident. There is no indication of any move-
ment in, or general damage to, either of these piers. The arrises have been abraded
in some cases, and where the main shoes left the pedestals the blow they administered
to the coping and cornice moulding spawled the granite in one case for about 22 feet
in length. The effect on the masonry, however, can only be absolutely determined by
af exhaustive examination.'
As the lower 'chords call for particular attention wo give here a memorandum
of the condition of these chords after the accident. The other portions of the structure
are sufficiently illustrated in the photographs and drawings already referred to.
This memorandum is part of Exhibit 54 ; it was prepared by Messrs.
Cudworth, Kinlooh & McLure, and was cliecked by the commissioners and found to
be a correct description. It is as follows:- —
A-l-L.
Starting with its pin connection with anchorage eye-bars, 79 ft. from C.L. of anchor
pier, and about 35 ft. above the ground, A-l-L slopes at an angle of about 70 degrees
to tile horizontal, until it rests on the grotmd at a point 90 ft., from C. L. of anchor
pier. Here the four ribs are broken entirely off, the west rib 3 ft. north of its splic-
to chord A-2-L, the vrest and east centre ribs at the field splice to A-2-L, and the «ast
rib through the web at tl» south ends of splice plates. The top cover plate is still
attached to A-2-L, and the bottom cover plate is torn off entirely. The latticing is
still practically intact. (See photographs No. 10 and No. 18).
A-2-L
The portion of A-2-L separated from A-l-L, as above described, lies on the ground
96 ft. from C. L. of anchor pier, the break being about 6 ft. south of pin hole connect-
ing hanger T-O-L. The chord bends to tlie east from this point to a point 118 ft.
from C.L. of artchor pier, where all four ribs are t\visted, and broken through the
angles and web plates from t?ie tops, half way down, (see photo. No. 18). At this
point of break the deflection from a straight line is the max, atid about 6 feet. From
this break the chord dips downward at an angle of about 10 degrees with the horizoatal,
and slightly westward fsre photo No. 17). The pin hole for connection of A-P-l-L is
intact, and all four ribs of this chord are broken off at the field splice eight feet iroTth
of this pin hole. The top and bottom cover plates at the splice with A-3-L are torn
from A-2 and fast on A-3. The latticing at point of break is broken, and all the
remain'ug latticing badly bent up, but in position.
A-3'L
Starting with its splice with A-2-L, recorded above as hroken, A-S-L tas its
four ribs in a straight line about parallel to axis of bridge, to a point 170 feet from
C. L. of anchor pier, where tie west rib is bent in toward the centre of chord, and tho
latticing broken, but rib itself uninjured.
102 ROYAL COilUISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The pin hole for connection of T-0-0 hanger is intact, but all four ribs are broken
through at the field splice eight feet north of this pin, right through the splice plates
to A-4-L. At this ]X)int, the south end of A-4-L lies 4 feet above the north end of
A-3-L, and 3 feet to the west (see photograph No. 16). At this splice between A-3-L
and A-4-L, and bottom cover plate is torn from A-4-L and fast to A-3-L, and the
top cover plate is torn from A-3-L and fast to A-4-L.
A-4-L
The four ribs of A-4-L run parallel to each other from their splice with A-3-L
to a point 10 feet south of pin connecting post P-2-L, at which point the east rib
spreads a foot toward the east till it reaches the pin hole of P-2-L post. At this point
all four ribs are broken through. North of this pin hole, the two outer ribs are spread,
but converge to their splice with A-5-L at whicu point the two centre ribs are broken
off entirely, but the outside ribs, intact.
A-5-L
A-5-L runs continuously from its field splice with A-4-L to pin hole for connec-
tion of T-0-O-O-L hanger, where all four ribs are broken through. From this pin hole
the chord runs straight to field splice. Here the three west ribs are broken off, but the
east rib runs by the splice, 4 feet on to chord A-6-L where it is broken. The top cover
plate at this splice is fastened at its east edge only, and the bottom cover plate torn
loose from A-6-L and fast to A-5-L. The latticing has been little damaged.
A-6-L
A-6-L at its splice with A-5-L is ofiset about two feet towards the west, and from
there runs in a straight line to the pin hole for connection of P-3-L. Here all four
ribs are broken through. Beyond the pin hole the east rib is displaced slightly to
the east to the field splice with A-7-L. At this splice the top cover plate is fast to
east rib of A-6-L only, and bottom cover plate fast to four ribs of A-6-L only. The
latticing is little damaged.
A-7-L
From its splice with A-6-L, A-7-L is deflected slightly to the west until it reaches
the pin hole for connection of T-0-O-O-O-L hanger, where all four ribs are broken
through. From this pin hole to the splice with A-8-L the ribs run straight.
At the splice the two centre ribs are broken through the splice plates but the outside
ribs are intact. The latticing is little damaged.
A-8-L
The ribs of A-8-L run straight from its splice with A-Y-L for a distance of about
20 feet. At this point the west rib bends to the west about 90 degrees and rises in the
air to a height of about 20 ft. The west and east centre ribs start to bend at the
same point but come back again, forming a reverse curve, and burying themselves
in a pile of scrap iron immediately beyond the pin hole for the connection for P-4-L.
The east rib follows the same general direction, but its north end instead of turning
downward, makes a hook toward the east. All four ribs are broken off at the pin hole
for P-4-L, the piece from the west rib lying out on the beach about 25 feet from the
present position of the west main pier shoe, and having attached to it two feet of
the wes£ rib of chord A-9-L, with the field splice intact. The latticing is almost
entirely destroyed.
A-9-L
Beginning at the field splice with chord A-IO-L, at which splice all four ribs are
broken, the west rib of A-9-L runs south, at an angle of 45 degrees to the axis of the
bridge towards the east to the pin hole for the connection of A-T-5-Z hanger, at which
point it starts to bend eastward, turning through about 180 degrees in a length of 15
feet and thence running north eight feet. At this point it bends through 180 degrees
again in a length of 10 ft., and then runs south and inclined upward at an angle of
40 degrees with the horizontal, to a point two feet beyond its field splice with A-S-L,
REPORT OF THE COilMISSIONERS 103
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
which splice is intact and fully riveted. At the last bend mentioned, three of the
web plates are broken through.
llunniug ijarallel to west rib to T-5-Z pin hole, the west centre rib is there
broken, but continues beyond, turning through ISO degrees, and running north for
eight feet, then bonding back 180 degrees, at which bend two of the web plates are
broken through and running south to its former field splice with A-8-L, where it is
broken.
The east centre rib runs parallel to west centre, but is not broken at pin hole, and
at the last bend has only one web plate broken.
The east rib parallels the east centre rib through the first bend of 180 degi'ees to
a point eight feet north of the pin hole, where it doubles over on itself and projects
upward and toward the west to a height of U feet above the ground.
The distance from the field splice with A-'8-L to the chain mark on west centre
rib is 13 feet. The centre of max. bend of the chord is about 20 inches forward of
this point, and the loose rivet discovered in the lattice angle is about midway letweeii
the chain mark and the centre of the bend. This bend lies about 15 feet south of the
fracture in the floor beam between P-4 posts. All of the west end of A-9-L is still
attached to T-5-Z hanger, and all of its four ribs are bent through 180 degrees at a
distance of about 8 feet from the T-5-Z-L pin hole.
At the si-cund bend mentioned in the east rib two web plates are broken through.
The lattice angles are completely destroyed.
A-IO-L
The four ribs of A-IO-L, starting from its field splice with A-9-L, at which
all four ribs are broken, runs in a straight line slightly inclined westward, with the
ribs folded over and lying one on top of the other, the latticing being completely
destroyed.
A-l-R
Starting with its connection with the anchorage eye-bars, A-l-R dips downward
at an angle of about 70 degrees to the horizontal. At a point 6 feet distant horizon-
tally from its south end it is crippled through all four ribs, and bends toward the east,
the flange angles being cracked through here and the latticing torn ofl". Turning again
90 degrees it runs straight down into the ground at the pin hole for the connection of
T-O-R hanger, at a very short distance beyond which, buried in the mud, the four
ribs are broken oS through the webs. The field splice 4 feet south of A-T-O-R hanger
pin hole is intact on the two outer ribs, but slightly loosened up on the inner. The
top cover plate is on, but the bottom one partly torn off.
A-2-R
Beginning at the break mentioned as north of the T-O-R hanger connection,
this end of A-2-R has been thrown westward to a position 138 feet from C-L of
anchor pier and 5 feet west of original east truss line, the chord turned up on its west
side, and running northeast to a point 155 feet from C L of anchor pier and 31 feet
east of original line of east truss. The chord has a long bend at its centre, and the
latticing is badly bent up, but for the nio>t part still fast to the chord. All four ribs
axe broken completely through just south of the P-l-R pin hole, and form the end
last located. The remainder of the chord lies at the foot of P-l-R post and runs
north from that to its field splice with A-3-R, at which the east rib is broken three
feet north of splice on chord A-3-R, and the other ribs broken right at the splice.
A-3-R
At a point six feet from its field splice with A-2-R this chord bends sharply to
the east for five feet and then back again to a direction about parallel to axis of bridge.
At the pin hole for connection of A-T-0-O-R hanger, the east rib only is broken. At
the field splice with A-4-R the east rib is intact and the other three ribs broken,
through. The bottom cover plate is fast to cast rib of both chords, and top cover plate
104 ROTAL COMMISSrOX OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
to all ribs of A-4-E and to east rib of A-3-R. The latticing is in good condition
at south end and broken off at north end.
A-4-R
From its field splice with A-3-R, A-4-E runs straight to a point 10 feet south
of pin hole for connection of P-2-R post, -where the outside ribs bulge out
around the pin hole to the field splice with A-5-R. At the pin hole all four ribs arc
broken through. At the splice the west rib is partly and the other three entirely
broken through. The batten plate on chord just south of P-2-R is entirely destroyed.
The latticing is little damaged.
A-5-R.
Runs straight from its field splice at south end to tlie pin hole for connection of
T-0-O-O-R hanger, where all ribs are broken through. From pin hole to field splice
at north end the chord is tipped up in the air at an angle of 45 degrees to the hori-
zontal. At the field splice the splice plates are stripped off the two outside ribs. On
the inner ribs the splice plates are broken through. Latticing partly broken.
A-6-R
Runs straight from its field splice with A-5-R to pin hole for contoection of
P-.3-R post, where the four ribs are broken through. From the pin hole to its field
splice with A-7-R chord inclines slightly west. At this splice all four ribs are
broken, and the short section thus left is tipped up about 15 degrees with the hori-
zontal. The latticing has been little damaged.
A-?-R
Starting at an offset of 18 inches east from A-6-R at splice, A-7-R runs straight
to pin hole for connection of A-T-0-O-O-O-R hanger, where the four ribs are
broken; through at pin hole. From this point, t ofield splice with A-8-R the chord
inclines slightly westward. At the latter splice everything is intact except the bottom,
cover plate which is partly broken off from east rib. Latticing bent up, but not badly
broken.
. A-8-R
Running six feet north from its field splice with A-7-R the chord is straight.
At this point the three west ribs take a sharp bend through almost 90 degrees to the
east for six feet, followed a little further north by a similar but wider bend in east
rib, all four ribs turning north again to meet the pin hole for connection of
A-P-4-R post, at which point the ribs are all broken off.
The west rib runs from this pin hole to splice which is intact, and continuing on
to the west rib of A-9-R makes a sharp bend of 180 degrees to the west and south,
and in a few feet, again turns about 75 degrees to the west and is broken off through
its web about opposite the pin in foot of A-P-4-R.
The west centre rib parallels the we---t rib, across the field splice, continuing on
to the same rib in chord A-9-Ii anJd terminating in a broken end at about the same-
point as the west rib.
The east centre rib runs from the pin liolo to the field splice, and is there broken
off.
The east rib runs from the pin hole across the splice which is intact, on to the
same rib of chord A-9-R, turning to the east and south, through about 150 degrees,,
and terminating in a broken end at a point about two feet north of the pin at foot of
post A-P-4-R.
A-fr-R
Starting at the field splice -with A-IO-R this diord runs south> almost directly
underneath chotd A-t-R, to the pin hole for connection oiF A-T-5-Z hanger, at
tvhich point all four ribs are broken. From here the fuur ribs turn to the west about
REPORT OF THE COMi/If:S:iOXERS 105
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
90 degrees aud run completely under A-7-R. After passing under the latter chord,
the cast rib continues almost directly westward for a distance of 20 ft. and terminat(!S
in a broken and twisted end, which probably matches the other end of this rib described
under chord A-8-R, and located about 75 ft. distant.
After emerging from underneath chord A-7-R the other three ribs continue
the 90 degree lend to one of about 180 degrees^ and run directly north, the east and
cast centre ribs terminating in ends broken and twisted, directly opposite and just
west of field splice between A-9-R and A-IO-R, and the west centre rib continu-
ing its course north to its faced end, opposite and directly east of field splice between
A-7-R and A-8-R, and before reaching there, having three of its four plates torn
from it and doubled back, and the fourth broken half through, and twisted completely'
aroimd. In this neighbourhood there are numerous small pieces of plates and angles
that can readily be identified as having once belonged to chord A-9-R. Latticing
on this chord is completely destroyed.
A-IO-R
The field splice between A-9-R and A-IO-R is partly broken. Starting from
that point, A-IO-R runs north, and inclining slightly eastward to a point near the
south end of the stub chord A-ll-R, pinned on the 24-inch pin, its field splice with
iwhieh is entirely broken. The ribs of A-IO-R are comparatively straight, but are
piled over, one on the other, and the latticing entirely destroyed.
A-ll-R and L.
These V-shaped stub chords are still in the positions originally placed, on the
24-inch pins holding them to the main pier shoes. Their field splices with hoth the
number 10 chords of anchor and cantilever arms have been broken off entirely, but the
chords themselves damaged but little.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY.
J. GALBRAITH.
APPENDIX No. 13.
AN EXAMINATION OF THE- VARIOUS FULL-SIZED COLUMN TESTS
THAT HAVE BEEN MADE IN AMERICA, ACCOMPANIED BY DIA-
GRAMS SHOWING THE RESULTS OF THESE TESTS.
In view of the circumstances accompanying the accident of August 29th, it was
/necessary for ns to investigate the design of the lower chords and the data that were
at the disposal of the designer (The Phoenix Bridge Company's engineer) when he
began his work. This investigation was commenced by an examination of all obtain-
able records of column tests.
The column formulas used in practice are, broadly speaking, empirical formulas,
framed to suit the results of these tests.
In examining the records, a process of elimination was adopted, the object being
to select those tests which most nearly corresponded to the Quebec Bridge conditions.
The following are the considerations upon which the selection was made.
(1) No tests on solid sections were used, because the bridge chords were built-up
meml-)ers and api^arently failed from weakness of connecting details, the conditions
being absolutely -different from those existing in a solid section.
106 HOTAL COMillSSIOX ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
(2) No tests on sections that have been proved defective were used, except that
certain of the Buchanan tests, which were published in 1907, have been selected on
account of the large sections of the test pieces, although these were not of the most
approved design.
(3) No tests on members whose failure was caused by defects in the testing
apparatus were used. In the earlier tests special ends were fitted to many of the test
columns with unsatisfactory results.
(4) It was intended to exclude all tests on members having less than 10 square
inches area, but some tests on sections having areas between Vi and 10 square inches
. have been included.
(5) When the ratio for any column exceeded about 120 the test results were
r
not used.
The records consulted were: —
(1) J. M. Moncriefi (Am. Soc. C. E., Vol. XLV., 1901.)
This paper, which was written by an English engineer, contains perhaps the most
complete compilation of column test data that has ever been published. It was con-
sulted for reference to original authorities. The records contained in it show that
there were practically no English or European tests that would not be excluded by the
fourth consideration above mentioned.
(2) ' Tests of Metals.'
This is the official record of all tests made at the United States Arsenal at
Watertown, Mass. The complete file of these volumes, publications of which began
about 18S1, was examined. No tests of interest were found in any volumes issued
after 1884. The results from tests on wrought iron columns of the Phcenix box and
latticed channel tj^pes have been selected. The results of 99 of these tests have been
used. The specimens varied in cross section from 7 square inches to 22 square inches,
there being 6 with areas between 20 and 22 square inches and 14 with areas between
15 and 20 square inches.
(3) G. Bouscaren (Am. Soc. C. E., Volume IX., 1880.)
The tests recorded in this paper were made between 1875 and 1879 in connection
with the building of the Cinninnati Southern Railway. They included tests on
wrought iron columns of the box and latticed channel tj-pes. In all 9 tests were select-
ed for use. This series of tests has possibly had more influence upon the detail of
bridge design than any other series that has been made, as the rejection of various
types of columns and the adoption of various modifications in detailing directly
resulted from it. The small number of tests that have been selected for this record
shows how greatly the tests were needed at the time. The cross section varied from
a minimum of about 11 square inches to a maximum of about 14 square inches, with
the exception of one box column which had an area of 26.05 square inches. The metal
used developed an ultimate strength of between 52,000 and 55,000 lbs. per square
inch, Mr. Bouscaren's specification of 1875 calling for an ultimate strength of 60,000
lbs. per square inch in tension.
(4) Clarke, Keeves and Company (Am. Soc. C. E. Vohuno XI, 1882).
This firm, which was the predecessor of the Phoenix Bridge Company, published
in this paper tlie results of a series of tests on Phcenix columns which were made for
them in 1879 and 1880 at the Watertown Arsenal, the material being wrought iron.
There were 22 tests in all.
It was found necessary to alter the ' breaking load ' on some of the shorter
columns given in the records, as an examination of the diary of the tests showed that
real failure had occurred considerably before the metal managed to escape from the
following up of the machine.
Clarke. Reeves and Company's specification of 1871 calls for iron of an ultimate
strength of from 55,000 to 60,000 lbs. per square inch. Twenty of the columns had
REPORT OF THE COilillSSIONERS 107
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
a sectional area of about 12 square inches and two a sectional area of 1S.3 square
inches.
(5) C. L. Strobol (xVm. Soc. C. E., Volume XVIII, 1888).
The tests recorded in this paper were made in lSs7 upon columns of H-shape built
up out of 4 Z-bars with a latticed web. The material was wrought iron, and the results
of nine tests have been used. The sectional area in each case was between 9 and 10
inches.
(6) ,J. C. Dagron (Am. Soc. C. E., Volume XX, 1S89).
This series of eight tests, all of which have been used, were made in 1884-5. The
columns were of the latticed two-channel type, the channels being built up. The
jiiaterial was high steel, the ultimate strength being given at 84,000 lbs. per square
inch and the elastic limit at 5.3,000 lbs. per square inch. The columns were between
8 and 14 square inch cross sections.
(7) Professor W. H. Burr. ' The Elasticity and Resistance of the Materials of
Engineering.'
In this book there is given a full resume of column test data, including 4 tests on
Phoenix columns made in 1ST3, the results of which have been used. The columns
were between 8 and 14 square inches in cross section.
(8) C. P. Buchanan (Engineering News, December 26, 1907).
In this paper are given the results of 19 tests made between 1888 and 1900, the
sections of the specimens varying from about 14 square inches to 33 square inches,
these being the largest columns that had been tested previous to the investigations
made in connection with our inquiry. The results were not made public until the date
above mentioned and were not available for use of the Quebec bridge designers. Twelve
of the siiecimens were of wrought iron, three of Bessemer steel and four of open hearth
steel, these last four being of the grade known as ' structural steel,' which is at present
in general use for bridge work. Only sis of the specimens were strictly symmetrical.
The columns were of the ' H ' two-channel and upper chord tjT)es. All the results have
been used, although on account of uusymmetrical sections and eccentric loading in
several cases, high ultimate strength was not to be expected.
(9) J. A. L. Waddell (Engineering Xews, January 16, 1908).
This paper gives the results of six tests upon structural steel columns of the two-
channel tj'pe. The tests were made about 1907. AU of the results have been used,
the column sections being 17 -44 square inches in area. The results of the tests on
nickel steel columns which were made at the same time have not been included.
The results of 176 tests in all have been jilotted, the cross section of the largest
colunm being less than 33 square inches in area, and that of the smallest greater than
7 J square inches; three columns had cross sections greater than 30 square inches, 9
greater than 25 square inches, 16 greater than 20 square inches and 20 greater than 15
square inches. The results of the tests are plotted in drawing Xo. 20, and are divided
into three groups, viz. : flat-ended wrought iron columns, pin-ended wrought iron
columns and pin-ended steel columns.
The following conclusions may be drawn from this study: —
(1) Very few tests have been made on full-sized steel columns, and some of those
that have been made are upon unusual grades of material.
(2) The experiments upon which modern practice is largely depending were made
at least twenty years ago, and upon a grade of material which is not now in use in
bridge construction.
(3) The decrease of strength with increase of the ratio of is, in the case of flat-
r
ended wrought iron columns, not clearly discernible on the diagram in drawing No. 20.
108 ROTAZ OOMUIBSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
(4) This decrease is discernible on the diagram in the case of pin-ended wrought
iron columns, but it is not nearly so rapid as the decrease indicated by the column
formula adopted in the amended specifications for the Quebec bridge.
(5) It is evident from the particulars of many tests that the size and strength of
the pin used have an appreciable effect on the results obtained, but the amount of this
effect has not been determined.
(6) The relation between the strength of a column as determined by test and as
calculated by formula varies greatly.
(7) Xo series of tests have been made to determine the relative stresses in the
various parts of a built-up column.
(8) The strength of a column is greatly affected by what have been considered
minor features in the end details.
(9) A compression member of usual design and dimensions cannot be expected to
develop an ultimate strength much greater than about one-half of the ultimate strength
of a tension member made from the same material.
(10) No tests have been made on columns of the form of the Quebec lower chords
nor on any having more than about Ha of the cross section of these chords.
That the results of laboratory tests should not be rigidly followed in field prac-
tice is axiomatic, but the extent to which they can be safely accepted is a matter of
judgment. During the last 25 years, a failure similar to that of the Quebec bridge
has been, we believe, unknown, and as compression members designed in accordance
with the re.sults of the Bouseareu tests have been uniformly successful, little doubt
existed in the minds of practising bridge engineers concerning them.
There is no definite evidence to show that either Mr. Cooper or Mr. Szlapka
ordered any investigation to be made of the tests data that were available, and when
the comparative magnitude of the undertaking is remembered, it is difficult to explain
their failure to check their conclusions on the Phoenix testing machine, which iwas
at their disposal.
On the drawing the results of the tests are shown, arranged according to the ratio
for each column. The form of the section upon which each test was made, —
r
double channel H, box Phoenix, or upper chord — is indicated by miniature sections.
It should be remembered that, previous to the Quebec disaster, the insufficiency
of the existing knowledge of column action had been widely recognized, and pro-
grammes for additional te.sting were under consideration both by the American
Society for Testing Materials and by an independent committee of prominent
engineers, acting in co-operation with the officers attached to the United States
Arsenal at Watertown. It is generally felt that modern bridge work has grown to
such dimensions that further investigations are desirable.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY.
J. GALBRAITH.
REPORT or Tilt: COMMISSIOXERS 109
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
APPENDIX No. 14.
A COMPARISOX OF THE STRESSES IN THE SEVERAL MEMBERS OF
THE MAIN TRUSSES, COMPUTED FROM THE BRIDGE AS FINALLY
DESIGNED, WITH THE STRESSES AUTHORIZED BY THE SPECIFI-
CATIONS.
The nineteen tables acompanying the report of Mr. C. C. Schneider, consulting
engineer, upon the design of the Quebec bridge, are self-explanatory. All Mr.
Schn(>ider's results have been compared with corresponding figures furnished by the
Pha'ni.x Bridge Company and iu general are found to slightly underrun them. They
show .hat the calculations of the Phwnlx Bridge Company were carefully and accu-
rately made. (See Exliibits Nos. 102 and lOS.)
Drawing No. 4 has been prepared for the Commission and revised by the Phoenix
Bridge Company. This drawing shows the maximum stresses arising from dead load,
plus li live load plus J wind, this loading having been used to some extent in the
original calculations at Mr. Cooper's direction. The only difference in the calcula-
tions leading up to the two sets of figures on the drawing lies in the dead load used;
for the first set the dead load assumed in the designing was taken, and for the second,
the actual dead load obtained from the built members. It will be noted that the error
of stresses in the main chords near the centre posts, due to this error of assumed dead
load is fuUy 10 per cent.
No satisfactory exploration of the occurrence o f this error has been offered.
On minor bridges, with a given live loading the weight of metal is known not
to vary greatly with details of design and in some offices revision of the assumed dead
loads for such bridge is not the nile ; but no information from which to predict the
■weight of the Quebec bridge existed, and the probability of a serious mistake in the
first estimate for weight would be apparent to a cautious designer.
The fact is that Messrs. Deans, Szlapka and Cooper permitted the shops and
rolling mills to commence work without taking any steps to test the correctness of
the assumed dead load, and the probable dead load does not appear to have beem.
estimated from the plans until at least eighteen months after the work of fabrication
•was commenced. (See Appendix No. 8.)
A list showing the dates on which each shop drawing was computed is filed as
Exhibit No. 125. and it will be noted that the work of designing was so
far advanced by the beginning of 1905, that the preliminary estimates of dead load
might then have been revised with considerable accuracy. By reference to Appendix
No. 8, it will be seen that the percentage of error in the original estimates for all
parts of the spans was roughly the same.
We are of opinion that no manufacturing should have been done until the
designers had so far advanced with their work as to be able to make a proper estimate
of the weight of the bridge. (See clause 3 of 1898 specification Exhibit No. 21).
Before completing the drawings for use in the shop the weight of the various
parts should have been computed as a check on the estimated weight of the bridge. As
a matter of fact this procedure was not adopted and manufacturing was commenced
in July. 1904. without .any such checking, although the specifications called for it,
and the contract practically demanded it. (See Appendix No. 8).
The designing office had accumulated sufficient information to enable it to make
a close estimate of the weight of the bridge but did not do so. On the contrary, work
continued as if their assumptions had been correct.
110 KOTAL COilillSSIOX OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
That Mr. Cooper fully intended to permit stresses in excess of 24,000 lbs. per
square incli under the conditions used for drawing No. 4 is shown by the following
letters : —
August 6, 1904.
Phoenix Bridge Company,
Phoenixville, Pa.
My De.uj Mr. Szlapka, — I have tested the proportions of the members of the
anchor arm under the following maximiim loading for my personal satisfaction— viz. :
Dead plus 1.5 live plus 25 lbs. of wind (i of your wind strain) and find that the only
members exceeding 24,000 in tension or 24,000 — 100 -=— for compression are —
K
The lower chord which has 26.500 and is all right and Towers L which should
have 108 square inches.
Towers B which should have 99 square inches to come within the above conditions.
This is such a slight matter I request for the sentiment of the thing that you
change those last two members to the above sections if it does not inconvenience
anything.
Yours very truly.
THEODORE COOPER.
August 9, 1904.
Theo. Cooper,
Consulting Engineer,
New York, N.Y.
Dear Sir, — I have your kind letter of August 6 in reference to increase of section
of members 'TLOOOOOandTBOOOOO'for combination of stresses due
to dead load plus li live-load plus wind.
I will gladly comply with your request and will also apply the same combination to
all other members to satisfy myself that the unit stresses are in proportion not higher
than those on the two above mentioned members.
Yours respectfully,
P. L. SZLAPKA.
The propriety of the selected stresses is discussed in Appendix No. 18.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY.
J. GALBRAITH.
APPENDIX No. 15.
A DESCRIPTION OF THE VARIOUS EXPERI^fENTAL RESEARCHES
THAT HAVE BEEN MADE IN CONNECTION WITH THE BUILDING
OF THE QUEBEC BRIDGE AND DURING THIS INQUIRY.
The Pluiiiix Iron Company possesses the most powerful macliino for compression
tests in existence; unfortunately, some doubt exists as to the accuracy of the records
obtained from it. As a result of n series of tests made in 1897, the New York Depart-
ment of Buildings places its error in compression at 15 per cent in excess; in tension,
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 111
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
liowever, its results seem to be in ngrecmeiit uitli those obtained with other machines
on similar material. In spite of these doubts, however, this machine has been of in-
valuable service to the engineering profession.
In the evidence, Mr. David Reeves, the president of the Phoenix Bridge Company,
states that he had given orders ' that all the special tests advised by the consulting en-
gineer, Mr. Cooper, or by our own engineers, arising from the unusual size of the
bridge, be promptly and fully made,' so that from the outset the designers of the
Quebec bridge had at their disposal both the equipment for making tests and the
authority to use that equipment.
The evidence shows that along certain lines these facilities were by no means
neglected, and we are of opinion that had Mr. Cooper and Mr. Szlapka realized how
limited is our knowledge of the strength of compression members, they would have
made as much use of the testing machine for compression tests as they did in connec-
tion with the eye-bars.
The appliances and tackle that were so successfully used in the erection were
tested when necessary, and the only failure of which we have record was in the hook
that was lifting A — 9 — L in the Chaudiere yard.
Some of the tests which were made are as follows : — Two plates about 28" x 2 J"
in section were tested in tension (see Exhibit 85), to determine the efficiency
of the connection between the two pins to be used at certain intersections. The plates
were tested with 12" jiins and reinforced bearings; the records filed are rather meagre.
One plate dished at one pin bearing when the stress amounted to 35,200 lbs. per square
inch, the test having continued without sign of failure to 26,000 lbs. per square inch.
In the test of the second plate the rivets began to work loose at a stress of 16,000 lbs.
per square inch; the test was discontinued before failure, when a stress of 26,000 lbs.
was reached.
An eye-bar, 16" x IJ", was made into two bj' cutting and reheading. One half
was bent into a long ' S,' the maximum deviations from the line between centres of
pin holes being about 3i" and 4|"; the length centre to centre of pin holes was about
17 feet. The other half was tested to destruction as a straight bar and failed under a
stress of 57,990 lbs. per square inch; 14-inch pins were used. The bent half stood a
stress of 61,340 lbs. per square inch before it failed. The bends were made in the
plane perpendicular to the pins. The test was assumed to indicate the negligible
effect of waves and bends in tension members.
Mr. Cooper having questioned the efficiency of the device for adjusting the posi-
tion of the suspended span on accoimt of the friction between the pins and the toggle
eye-bars, tests were made to determine the correctness of his opinion. The tests were
not conclusive, and Mr. Cooper decided that some entirely different device should be
used at the north end of the suspended span.
An important series of tests was made at Mr. Coopei-'s direction upon the deforma-
tion of eye-bars tinder strain. The usual record of tests upon full-sized eye-bars will
be found in Exhibit No. 86; 73 tests in all were made. Squares were scribed on
the heads of a number of these, and observations were made both of the flow
of the metal near the eye and of the deformation at the pin-bearing. This study
has been fully described by Mr. Cooper in his paper entitled ' New facts about eye-
bars,' presented at the meeting of the American Society of Civil Engineers, March
21, 1906. The shapes of the eye-bar heads after the tests are fully shown in Exhibit
104.
Alterations were made in the dimensions of the eye-bar heads as a result of these
tests and the set at the pin-bearing was allowed for in the camber diagrams. The
above were all of the special tests made in connection with the design of the bridge.
After the collapse of the bridge the Phoenix Bridge Company, at its own cost and
on its own initiative, built and tested the chord shown on Drawing No. 22. This
model chord had, as far as possible, the same relative dimensions as the No. 9 chords
112 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
of the Quebeo bridge and yet was small enough to be broken in the Pha-nix Iron Com-
pany's testing machine. The test was made on November 21 and 22, 1907, and was
under the general direction of Professor W. H. Burr. By the courtesy of the Phopnix
Bridge Company we are able to give the text of Professor Burr's report : —
New York, December 23, 1907.
Mr. David Reeves, President,
The Phoenix Bridge Company,
Philadelphia, Pa.
Dear Sir, — In accordance with your instructions a model chord section was built
to a linear scale of one-third of the lower chord section 9 of the anchor arm truss of
the Quebec Bridge and was tested to destruction, under my direction and supervision,
at the shops of the Phoenix Bridge Company at Phcenixville on_ November 21st and
22nd of the current year. The purpose of this test was to secure all possible infor-
mation regarding the circumstances and method or other features of the failure of
that chord which could be disclosed by the test of the model column in question.
This chord section was built of four ribs 54 inches deep, with 4 in. x 3 in. x § in.
•double angle latticing. Its area of cross section was 780 sq. in.
All the linear dimensions of the model were exactly one-third of those of the full
size chord section, making .the area of cross section (86.526 sq. ins.) one-ninth of that
of the full size member and the volume of metal, with the exception about to be noted,
one-twenty-seventh of the original member. This exception arises from the fact that
the actual chord member as built, 57 ft. sk in. in length, had a heavy chord joint in it
10 ft. 6 in., a little more than twice the depth, from one end. Furthermore, the full
size chords were bored for 12-inch pins, and pins of the same diameter were used for the
end bearings of the model chord section. It is manifestly impossible to reproduce in
a test precisely the conditions existing in the structure at the time of its failure, but
it is believed that the end conditions employed in the test and the accurate reproduc-
tion by scale of the main dimensions and nearly all the dimensions of the details in
the model enable the nearest approach to the actual conditions of the structure to be
secured. It is believed that these unavoidable and subordinate departures from the
actual conditions of the chord member did not sensibly affect the conditions of failure
In the testing machine or the ultimate load carried by the model.
The blue print plans accompanying this report show both the working drawings of
the original chord members 8 and 9, including the joint mentioned above, and those of
the model chord precisely as it was built as well as in its condition after test, the latter
plan having been made from accurate measurements of the failed member immedia-
tely after its removal from the testing machine. The blue prints of the model show
the four webs of the original chord accurately reproduced by scale, making the depth
18^ in. and the length 19 ft. As the plans of both the actual chord and the model
show every main and detailed dimension it is not necessary to repeat them here. It
should be stated, however, that each of the two interior ribs were composed of one
18-inch X A-inch plate, one 18-inch x J-inch plate, two 15A-inch x -fis-inch side plates,
and two 2i4-inch x IJ-inch x -ft-inch angles; and that the two exterior ribs were each
composed of one 18-inch x f«-inch plate, two 18-inch x J-inch plates, one 12|-inch x
A-inch side plate, and two 2lJ-inch x 2-inch x -ft-inch angles. The latticing was a double
oblique system of iJ^-inch x 1-inch x J-inch angles, with lA-inch x 1-inch x J-inch
crossing angles at the panel points of the former at right angles to
the axis of the member. All of these lattice angles had two A-inch
rivets at the ends of each with a single rivet at each crossing of the interior flange
angles of rims, as clearly shown on the plans. The linear scale of one-third of the
actual dimensions required the rivets used to be J-incli, A-inch and A-inch in
diameter, also as shown on the plans, the A-inch rivets being turned down from an
•original diameter of A of an inch. Similarly the 2H-inch x 2-inch and the 21fi-inch
/
154
-vol. i-W'
154— vol. 1— HIS
rnoTOCRAl'lI No. 1 REFKRRED TO IN Al'I'ENDlX Nn. 13, \OJ.. I.
i1
'i
15;
151— vol. i— 1308
I'UOTOUEAl'H No. 2 KEKERKED TU IN API'ENIJIX No. 15, VUL. I
"^
113
h pieces,
ich angle
true and
, the pin
tes. The
the web
te for the
e for this
Irill webs
gles were
r drilling
rts of the
jether for
hammeTs.
e riveting
to proper
the model
lates were
ania ; biit
hoenixville,
tely deter-
.ts of both
chord,
i of repre-
ially built,
st in such
•"racture.
i cup.
154- vol.
154-vul. i-l',i(is
rilOTOGKAl'lI No, 3 RKFEHKEU TO IX ATriCXuIX X... i:,, Vor,. I.
113
ich pieces,
inch angle
: true and
pt tbe pin
ates. The
)f the web
ate for the
te for this
drill webs
ngles were
or drilling
irts of the
gether for
; hammers,
le riveting
1 to proper
the model
ilates were
•ania; but
hcEnixville,
154--
tely deter-
ts of both
chord.
1 of repre-
lally built,
it in such
^ cup.
Ii4--\<J. i-1'.iiJt.
I'UUTUGRAi'H Ko. 4 REKERHED TO l.\ APPENUIX No. W, VOL. I.
REPORT OF THE COilMISSIOyERS
113
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
X IJ-inch rib flange angles were planed down from 3-inch x 2-inch x A-inch pieces.
The lacing angles were also planed from li-inch x IJ-inch x J-inch and A-inch angle
to the dimensions given above. All rivet holes were drilled.
The method of construction of the model was such as to leave it in true and
accurate condition. The web plates were laid off by wood templet, except the pin
plate holes, and drilled while the pin plates were drilled from iron templates. The
pin plates were then used as templates for the drilled holes at the ends of the web
plates. One web plate for each rib thus drilled was used as a drilling template for the
other plates of the same rib, the blank plates being bolted to the drilled plate for this
purpose. In the same manner the blank flange angles were bolted to the drill webs
and drilled from the latter as a templat. Rivet holes required for lattice angles were
drilled from iron templets, but the batten plates first drilled were used for drilling
templets after the chord was completely assembled. After the component parts of the
ribs were drilled they were taken apart, cleaned, painted and bolted together for
riveting. The latter was done both in web and lattice angles with pneumatic hammers.
The lattice bars were drilled like the other parts of the model. After the riveting
was completed the pin holes were bored and subsequently the ends were faced to proper
dimensions in a rotary planer. All the metal used for the main parts of the model
column was medium steel, but soft steel was used for rivets. The steel plates were
furnished by the Lukens Iron and Steel Company, of Coatesville, Pennsylvania; but
the angles were supplied and rolled by the Phoenix Iron Company, of Phoenixville,
Pennsylvania. The rivets were purchased in Philadelphia.
In order that the character of the metal employed might be completely deter-
mined, tensile tests were made of both plates and angles and shearing tests of both
the A-inch rivets used in the model and J-inch rivets used in the full size chord.
The following tabular statements show the results of all these tests and of repre-
sentative specimen tests of the metal used in the chord member 9 as actually built,
together with chemical analyses exhibiting the main elements of interest in such
structural material: —
TENSILE TESTS OF PLATES AND ANGLE-!,
li-is. X IJ-ix. X J-is. Angles.
Heat
No. or
Size.
Pounds Per Sq. Is. : Pkh Cent.
Date.
Elas. Lira.
Ultimate. ^^^^If^^ Reduction.
I 1
Fracture.
Nov. 6
„ 6
1402
1402
1402
1402
1402
52,520
50,000
65,660
6.<< 46n
270
23 0
27 5
21 0
20-5
55 6
57-7
59-6
54 4
48-2
Silky.
„ 6
51.900 1 62,500
50 340 61 .'?on
.. 6 ..
.. i cup.
.. 6
50,360
65,700
3-iN. X 2 IX. X ^'s-iN. Angles.
Nov. 5
,. 6
1,402
1,402
42,300 63,040 31 25
41,780 62.100 32 0
61 3
• 54 0
Silky.
A-ra. PLATES: TEST SPECIMENS 1045 INCH WIDE.
Oct. 29.
,. 29.
13673
13676
38,270 '
37,350
6.\420
C4.20<J
290
30 0
531
53 1
154^vol. i— 8
114
ROYAL COMMlS^lOy O.V COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
PLATES OF CHORD MEMBER 9 AS BUILT.
Nov. 1
54i X 5
38,840
60,680
26-5
53 0
Silky cup.
.. 1
544 X A
54| X t\
40,810
61,440
25 5
51-4
.. ang.
.. 1
42,000
67,700
23 0
50 5
., 1
544 X ft
40,780
65,540
24-5
49-0
n cup.
ANGLES OF CHORD MEMBER AS BUILT.
Sept. 14
8 X 34 X H
8x3xn
8x6xH
8 X 6 X i§
4x3x|
4x3x|
38,000
37,120
39,460
38,890
41,730
42,710
61,900
63,920
62,300
61,300
67,640
64,860
270
29-0
30 0
32 5
29-5
270
52-6
50-6
47 -1
49-2
0-26
0-27
Silky cup.
„ 14
M 1.
,1 14
.. 14
„ :-io
i> ang.
Nov. 18
SHEAR TESTS OF RIVETS, NOV., 1907.
Size of Rivets.
Ultimate resist, in lbs.
Per square inch .
Average.
59-700 58 200
50 420 50-875
.^9 700
51-380
59 200
50-960
CHEMICAL ANALYSES.
Car. F
hos. M
an.
Sul.
U-m. X l^in. x Jin. angles
-16
•21
-23
•17
-17
26
26
-16
■16 1
-17
-17
-18
-19
038
016
025
01
01
007
007
041
041
05?
052
036
05
51
40
42
46
46
34
34
36
36
39
39
66
41
037
•023
024
54A X I plates
54| X }i! plates
8 X 34 X U an
8,x6xM
4x3x3
?ie3.;.'.'.'.'. .■.■.■:.■.:;."
,' :..::::. :.'::■.:■■■
The specimen tests of the plates and angles used in the actual chords were selected
"by me out of a large number so as to give a reasonable and comprehensive view of
all and they are fairly representative. It will be observed that the usual effect of
rolling thin metal necessarily finishing at a lower temperature than that in the heavier
sections is apparent in the high elastic limits of li-inch x IJ-inch x Ji-inch angles.
The same effect, but to a small degree only, is probably discoverable in the A -inch
and 3-inch angles. This marked effect in the lattice angles of the model column has
a distinct bearing upon the final results of the test. A similar general observation,
and to a marked degree, applies to the higher unit shearing values of the j'j-inch
rivets as compared with those of the J-inch rivets of the full size member.
After placing the model column in the machine and under a load producing a
Stress of 12,000 lbs. per square inch it was thought that a buckling or bulging of the
web plates was discovered to the extent of -034 inch near the west end of the north
rib, but this was found not to increase under f\irther loading. Although measurements
I
REPORT or TUK COMMIHSIOXERS " ' 115
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
of this particular feature were not made before placing the column in the testing
mach ne, (Oitiiiued observations subsequent to the first indicate I think conclusively
that this particular deformation existed in the column 1 efore loading, and hence that
it hnd no elToct utxiu the ultimate failure of the column, or in other words, that it
■was an unavoidable result of the processes employed in the manufacture of the
column and was not a true buckling of the plates under loading.
The column was accurately placed in the machine with four fine wires stretched
throughout its length in the general plane of the upper flanges and with two
similarly placed in relation to the lower flanges. These fine wires stretched with
constant weights enabled any vertical or horizontal deflections of the tops of the four
ribs and the bottoms of the two exterior ribs to be measured by the aid of finely
graduated steel scales. Furthermore, longitudinal timber .scantlings on the two centre
lines of the exterior ribs, carrying steel scales at their ends, were used to measure
the shortening of the column under loading for 16 feet of its length to Vi2a of an
inch. While these methods of measurements were not so refined as it might be
desirable to adopt in an extended series of tests of this nature, they answered well
the purposes of this particular investigation, which was not intended so much to
determine with refined accuracy all the deformations produced in the test as to dis-
cover the main features and methods or other circumstances of failure, so far as
possible, which attended the collapse of the full size chord section.
Prick punch marks were made in the heads of the rivets of the lattice bars
•throughout the length of the upper side of the column as it lay in the testing machine,
and the distances between these marked were accurately measured at all stages of the
test up to failure in order to ascertain the condition of stress in the lattice angles
under the progressive loading to which the column was subjected. Furthermore, these
bars were tapped with a hammer at the same time in order to secure further infor-
mation as to their condition of stress as the tone of the resulting sounds might give.
The progressive loading was applied in stages of 3,000 lbs. per square inch of
cross section of column, beginning with an initial loading of that value. At the end
of every other stage of each loading, the column was relieved of stress in order to
make observations in that condition. This programme was adhered to up to a stress
of 21,000 lbs. per square inch, when the next increment was made 1,500 lbs. per square
inch, after which the column was freed of load. The remaining programme of loading
is shown on the blue print plan showing the effect of the test on the column which
will be discussed in full below.
After the application of each 3.000 IK':., or finally 1,500 lbs., increment of loading
and upon each removal of loading an accurate series of measurements for shortening
of the column, for horizontal and vertical deflections at the various panel points of the
latticing and for the stretching or shortening of the latticing angles were made. The
results of these measurements are shown on the blue print plan showing the effect of
test and largely in the tabular statement on that blue print headed ' Changes in
Chord Lengths According to Loading.' The only exception to this statement is the
fact that the measured deflections of the crilunins are not given. As these deflections
were small the methods of measuring them were not altogether conclusive as to their
amounts or as to their actual existence in some cases. At 9,000 lbs. per square inch,
for instance, three ribs showed an apparent upward deflection of s^ inch at and in
the vicinity of the centre of the column. This deflection did not appear to increase
until the stress reached 18,000 lbs. per square inch, and then only to an amount less
than ^ inch with doubt as to the accuracy of the measurement. No apparent increase
of deflection was found again until a stres^s of 24.000 lbs. per square inch was reached,
when the deflection of the four ribs appears to be i^ inch, A inch, A inch and J inch,
respectively, at centre. On removal of the load this deflection disappeared entirely
except for s'j inch in one interior rib and the same amount in one exterior rib, both
being upward. There was no subsequent opportunity to make further deflection
measurements.
154— vol. i— 8i
U6 ROTAL COMMISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII,, A. 1903
Under a stress of 12,000 lbs. per square inch one rivet in a lattice angle at the
second centre intersection from the west end of the column was found loose, but toward
the end of the test it appeared to become less so, the conditions of the centre ribs
probably becoming such as to give it less opportunity for small motion. Up to the
final loading all other rivets appeared to remain in good condition although they were
frequently tested with a light hammer.
Actual testing of the column with the application of the first loading began at
about two o'clock in the afternoon of November 21. of the current year, and it was
continued without interruption in the manner set forth in the preceding statements
to 11 p.m. of the same day. At that time a load of 25,000 lbs. per square inch was
reached for a very short time in the endeavour to attain a stress of 25, .500 lbs. per
square inch. This endeavour, however, was unsuccessful in consequence of the leaking
of a pump valve (subsequently repaired) to such an extent as to render it impossible
to secure the d&^ired pressure in the cylinder of the testing machine.
After having attained the above loading of 25,000 lbs. per square inch the
program.me of the test was interrupted until 10 a.m. of November 22.
At that time instructions were given to load the column to 25,500 lbs. per square
inch, but inadvertence in signalling to attendants at the pump caused the load to reach
26,850 lbs. per square inch, at which stress the member suddenly failed. This failure
was attended by a quick sharp report, and it occurred so suddenly that three observers
who were closely watching the column at the time could not discover any sequence in
the yielding of the details of the column ; the occurrence was so sudden that all failures '
of details appeared to be absolutely simultaneous.
Aside from the raising of scale on the pin plates immediately in front of the
12-inch pins, the collapse of the column consisted in the failure by shearing of the
majority of the lattice rivets at the central panel of latticing and of a considerable
number of other rivets throughout the length of the column in both flanges, loading
to the permanent bending to reversed curvature of the four ribs at the same central
vicinity accompanied by the violent bending or distortion of the lattice angles and
some small dishing of the rib web plates, all as shown on the accompanying blue print.
The ribs were all slightly bent immediately beyond the supporting influence of the
battens at each end.
There are certain features of this practically instantaneous failure of the column
which are highly significant. As indicated in the preceding statements, there were no
permanent strains or distortions of any kind discovered or apparently discoverable
up to the loading producing failure. This observation is certainly true of every part
of the column except the I'lt-inch lattice rivets. If suitable apparatus for refined
measurements could have been applied to them some shear distortion might have been
observed prior to the final loading. Observations made on the latticed angles showed
no i)ermanent stretching or compression of those members prior to failure. The
phenomenally liigli clastic limit of the metal in them shown by the test results in the
tabular statement and already remarked upon indicates that they would have exhibited
no marked permanent distortion nuich short of ultimate resistance either as tension
or compression members. In point of fact all the circumstances of the test indicated
that no main part of the column was stressed up to its clastic limit; in otber words,
that the entire loading was insufficient to develop more than a part of the elastic
resistance of the column as a whole, and that if the latticing details had been stronger
the column would have carried a greater load before collapsing. The instantaneous
failure was clearly due to the fact that the main parts of the column were subject to
elastic stri'Ss only.
Although it is impossible to corclate accurately the results of this column test
with the stres.s conditions in the actual chord section at the instant of failure, in
consequence of the higlier clastic qualities of the relatively thin metal in the model
column which has already been commented upon and the presumably greater care
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 117
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
which is usually bestowed upon the manufacture of a model member, an approximation
of some value may perhaps be made.
The friction of a hydraulic testing machine is known to be considerable, but
without recent calibration its amount cnnnot be confidently stated. The friction of
the machine at the Phoenix Bridge Company's works was determined some ten or
twelve years ago by G. Henning as ITJ per cent of the total load on the piston as
indicated by the mercury gauge, and this may be accepted provisionally until a further
calibration can be made. If this percentage deduction be made from 26,S00 lbs. per
square inch, the apparent stress at which the column failed, it will make the com-
pressive stress in the metal 22,110 lis. per square inch. The shear tests of the A-inch
and J-inch rivets make the average of the latter but 86 per cent of the former. Hence,
if the ultimate shearing resistance of the A-ineh rivets had been the same as that of
the |-inch rivets, the stress on the column producing the failure of the latticing rivets
would have been but 19,014 lbs. per square inch of the column. Just what value should
be given to the possibly higher excellence of manufacture of the model over that of the
full size column is of course not determinable. It may or may not have sensible value.
It is to be noted, however, that after making such allowance as is practicable for the
friction aad the increased resistance of the smaller rivets there is reached an intensity
of stress nearly identical with that which existed in the actual chord section at the
time of this failure.
It should be carefully observed that the radius of gyration of the normal section
of the model column about an axis at right angles to the webs and through their
centres, i.e. parallel to the axis of each pin, is 5-43 and 5-52 inch about a central axis
parallel to the webs. Hence, as the column lay in the testing machine, the ratio of its
length divided by the horizontal radius of gyration is 35, while the ratio of the same
length over the vertical radius of gyration is 42. The column failed, therefore, in the
plane of the greatest radius of gyration. Furthermore, its failure was wholly in a
horizontal plane, there being no sensible vertical deflection of the failed column.
The length of the column was such as to place it practically at the limit between
short and long columns, as the ordinary column formulae, such as the much used
Gordon's and ' straight line,' are properly applicable when the ratio of length over
radius of gyration has values greater than about 40 or possibly a little more. Inas-
much as the ultimate carrying capacity per square inch of section increases as the
length of column decreases and as this model column was comparatively short, the
latticing required to develop its full load carrying power should be relatively heavy
rather than light.
Very truly yours,
WM. H. BURR,
Cons. Engineer.
The commissioners were invited to be present and to assist at this test, and the
Department of Railways and Canals was represented at it by Mr. C. C. Schneider.
The shape of the model chord after the test was finished is shown on drawing No. 21,
which has been prepared from the blue prints referred to by Prof. Burr. The
accompanying photographs (Nos. 1 and 2) show the details of the failure very clearly.
The eoramission has the following comments to make concerning this test: —
1. There was little or no indication of failure up to the instant at which it
occurred. Failure took place with explosive violence, by the shearing of the outer
rivets of the latticing.
2. Messrs. Schneider, Deans and Szlapka were closely watching the chord when the
unexpected failure occurred. No one of these engineers could say what connection
or detail was the first to give way.
3. It was noted that the surface scaled at only three outside pin bearings.
118 ROYAL COMMISSlOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
4. The cross lattice bars showed little sign of stress, rivets being sheared only in
those bounding the central bay. Theoretically, under a racking stress in the column,
these bars would not come into play, the diagonals only being strained, one set in
tension and the other set in compression.
5. The failure of the riveting was systematic. In each lattice bay one diagonal
connection failed in tension and the other in compression ; and usually both failures
occurred at the side of the bay farthest from the nearer end of the column. It will
be noted from the photographs that both on top and bottom the diagonals in the centre
bay failed in the opposite manner to that of the corresponding diagonals in all the
other bays.
6. The efficiency of the central connection plate in the bottom latticing is well
shown by the photographs.
7. Some of the lattice rivets were cut out and found to be partially sheared and
there were some slight indications that they had been sheared first on one side and then
on the other, indieatins a reversal of stress in the lattices. That such a reversal would
instantly follow the failure of the latticing in the central panel is apparent from the
curvature of the chord on one side of the central panel being opposite to that on the
other side.
8. Subsequent investigation has shown that the method adopted for testing the
working of the lattice bars was unsatisfactory. It consisted of measurements between
centre punch marks on the rivet heads and did not include the effect of rivet shear.
In our opinion the load was more evenly and centrally applied in this test than
it would be in the case of a chord in ordinary service. In other words under working
conditions the failure of the latticing of this model chord would have taken place
under a smaller stress.
This is the more probable since, as Prof. Burr points out. the model chord was
superior to the bridge chord in both material and workmanship. The difference in
material is well shown by the test records included in Prof. Burr's report.
On November 26 some tests on rivet shear were made by the Phoenix Bridge Com-
pany, the results being given on Drawing No. 26. The results of these tests, together
with those given by Prof. Burr, showed that the rivets used in the bridge would develop
an ultimate strength of .slightly over 50,000 lbs. per sq. inch, and also that the rivets
maintained without failure their ultimate strength, even though partially sheared.
On January 14 some further tests were made by the Phoenix Bridge Company
which gave similar results. These results are given on Drawing No. 26. A movement
of tV to :J-inch apparently took place before actual failure.
This rivet shear offered a reasonable explanation of part of the change in the
lengths of the diagonal lattice lai-s which must have accompanied the distortions of
the chords in the bridge which were measured on August 27, 1907. The inspectors
had indeed carefully examined the chords and the lattices and reported no evidence
of failure, but this rivet shear might casil.v have escaped their observation ; it is
noteworthy that no one of the engineers assembled to watch the test of the model
chord on November 21 thought of it, and they completely failed to detect such action
up to the moment of failure, although working under the most favourable conditions.
A change in length in addition to the above seemed to be due to the reduced section
at the centre of one of each pair of diagonal lattice bars.
In December the commission ordered the construction of test chord No. 2 for the
purpose of determining the strength of the webs of the design used in the Quebec
bridge. The dimensions of this chord are given in Drawing No. 2^. It had a section
half that of test chord No. 1; the number of rivets in the lattice connections was
doubled, the section of the lattice bars was increased 50% and the weak points at
their centres were strengthened by the use of connection plates. The webs were of
the same section as the outer webs of test chord No. 1. Material from the same heats
was used in the manufacture of the two test chords.
REPORT OF THE COilillSSlOyERS 119
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
This chord was tested at Phoenixville on January 18, the observations made during
the test and the shape of the chord after failure being shown on Drawing No. 24
and on photographs Nos. 3 and 4.
It will be noted that this chord failed undr-r a stress of 37,000 lbs. per sq. in. by
the buckling of the webs in the centre bay, the latticing being siifRciently strong to
fully develop the strength of the webs. The nominal strength of the column (the
record has to be corrected for an unknown machine error) was slightly less than the
elastic limit of the metal in the webs. (See record in Professor Burr's report.)
In this test the column seems to have been loaded evenly and centrally, since the
latticing was not seriously stressed :
The following notes concerning this test are of interest : —
(1) There was some reason to think that chord A — 9 — L might have been bent
sharply at the edge of the cover plate previous to failure. The inclination of its webs
to the centre line on x\.ugust 27 was very marked near the 8-9 joint. (See Drawing
No. 28). A series of straight edge measurements (see Drawing No. 24) was made
during the test of model chord No. 2 to determine whether any angle developed
at the edge of the cover plate as the pressure increased, but no such movement was
detected.
(2) During the test the yielding of the lattice rivets was observed by means of
match marks upon the lattices and ribs. The results noted are given on drawing No.
24. They indicate that the pressure was centrally applied and that the lattice bars
were not seriously stressed when these observations were taken. Towards the end of
the test the lattice bars in the end panels were distinctly bowed upwards owing
probably to the compression of the webs.
(3) Scaling at the pin bearings was observed as shown on Drawing No. 24, but
this was about the same at all four surfaces at the bearings and did not indicate that
there was any racking strain on the chord.
(4) The dishing of the webs during the test is shown on Drawing No. 24.
(5) It will be noted from the measurements on Drawing No. 24 that there were
practically no horizontal or vertical movements of the chord webs with reference to
the chord ends to which the reference wires were attached.
On January 20, the Commission made three tests on full size lattice bars of the
chord No. 9 design, the particulars of which are given on Drawing No. 27. The tests
were made in the laboratory of Messrs. Wm. Sellers & Company, Philadelphia, and
the results obt^ained under the skilful handling of Mr. Baekstrom may be accepted
without question.
The purpose of these tests was to determine the strength of the lattice bars and
the amount of yielding of the various parts of the length as the tension increased.
It will be noted that in each case failure took place at the centre of the lattice
bar and the following table is of interest : —
REStTLTS OF LATTICE AND RIVET TESTS.
3 full size hars test P /^f""? 'T?.'"""! °^ * ^*^ °" 2Jm- riv- 2 tests on 2J-in. riv-
ed bv Wm Sel- sized bars test- ets m single shear ets m «m(rle shear
lers it Co on .Tan ^'^ .^S the Phoenix made by the Phre-, made by the Phoe-
9nth 1Qn>< I Bridge Co. on .Ian. nix Bridge Co. on; nix Bridge Co. on
• 2l8t, 1908. Nov. 26th 1907. Jany. Itth, 190?.
Ultimate load in lbs.
60,liJ0
59,800
59,500
Ultimate lojid in lbs. Ultimate load in lbs. Ultimate load in lbs.
61,100
62,000
00,700
63,000
63,000
63,800
64,700
62,500
63,100
3 tests upon 2|-in.
rivets in double
shear, made by the
Phoinix Bridge Co.
Nov. 1907.
Ultimate load in lbs.
121,000
122,000
123,800
120
ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
It will be noted from the above that the riveting was sufficiently strong to
develop the full strength of the cut lattice bar and by reference to Drawing No. 27
it will be seen that yielding took place simultaneously in the rivet connections and in
the reduced section at the centre of the bar.
As the first test chord failed by shearing of the rivet connections and as no indica-
tions of failure at the centre of the lattice bars were noticed, the result of the tests
on the full size lattice bars was unexpected.
A series of tests on the lattice bars of test chord No. 1 was made by direction of
the commission on January 23rd. The small testing machine belonging to the
Phoenix Iron Company was used, but as this was not well equipped for the wdrk, the
results are not wholly satisfactory.
The observations which are given on Drawing No. 25, show that up to the moment
of failure there was little yielding either of the rivets or of the reduced central portion,
and that the failure took place in each case by rivet shear. The results of the speci-
men tests on the material for the angles are given in Prof. Burr's report.
The following table gives the results of tests upon the A-in. rivets.
TESTS ON ,^-iN-. RIVETS.
At Phcenixville, November, 1907.
At Phcenixville, Jan. 21st 1908.
2 Riv«ts in Double Shear.
Two Rivets in Single Shear.
Ultimate load in lbs.
Ultimate load in lbs.
16,000
7,500
15,600
8,700
16,000
9,000
On January 31, the Commission made some tests at the laboratory of Messrs.
Wm. Sellers and Company to determine the slips of rivets connecting parts under
compression, the form of the test pieces before and after testing being shown on draw-
ing No. 25. The record of these tests, which is not given elsewhere, is as follows : —
C and D i " from end
REPORT OF THE C0iIiIISSI0NER8
121
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
TESTS No. 1874.-.IANUARY 21, 1908.
Loads. Distance A .
1
Distance B .
DietanceC.
Distance D
Remarks.
, I
ns.
Ins.
Ins.
Ins.
0 1
0069
1 2700
5 90
6
•04
5,000 1
00.50
1-2623
5 90
6
04
icoon 1
•0018
1 2612
590
6
04
15.000 1
0000
1-2529
5-90
6
04
20.000 1
0000
1 2505
5 88
6
05
25,0(10
•9075
I 2469
5-88
6
05
30,000
9940
1 2.-?04
5-f6 +
6
•06
35,000
9820
1-2178
5 86 +
6
07
"■
40,000
9391
1 1570
5-86 +
6
07
40,000
9300
1-1568
5-86 +
6
07
After 10 minutes rest.
45,000
8912
1 0982
5-87
6
08
50,000
8228
10090
5-.S4
6
09
50.000
8050
•9913
5-84
6
09
After 10 minutes rest.
55,000
7090
•8470
580
6 11
I l>eiim starting to scale.
59,200
Maximum load reached.
Structure collapsing.
0
5271
-4106
5-46 1 6.31
Motion of Blocks S and S
S ="200 +
S'="180
TEST No. 1875.
Loads. Dista
nee A.
Distance B.
Distance C.
Distance D.
Remarks.
! !■
IS.
Ins.
Ins.
Ins.
0 1
0018
1 1941
598
5
96
5,000 1
0010
1 1941
5-98
5
96
10,000 1
0010
11896
5 98
5
96
15,000
9991
11830
5 98
5
96
20,000
9991
1 1797
598
5
96
25,000
9973
1 173S
5 98
5
96
30,000
9905
1 1(>.33
598
5
96
35,000
9852
1 1528
6-98
5
96
40,000
9411
11004
5-96
5
96
40,000
9411
11004
5-96
5
90
After IQ minutes rest*
45,000
9072
10536
5-95
5
98
50,000
8307
9569
5-93
5
99
50,000
8318
•9535
5 93
5
99
After 10 minutes rest.
55,000
6953
•7647
5 90
6 03
I beam scaling.
58,700
Maximnm
oad readied.
Structure collapsing.
0
5195 t
•.?760
5-52 1 6-25
Motion of Blocks S and S'
S =210"
S'=230"
Measurements C and D are on rough surfaces.
GUS E. BACKSTROM.
122
A'Or.l/, COMMISSION O.Y COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
TEST No. 1873.
Load.
Distance
A.
Distance
B.
Remarks.
0
5 (HKI
10200
1 020li
10206
1 1074
1 0150
1 0143
1 0097
1-0IXJ2
0-9730
0 9184 "
0 9130
0-9134
0-8390
0-8303
0-6963
10,000
15,000
20,iXK)
25,000
1-2762
30,000
35,000
40.000
45,000
45,000
45,000
50,000
50,000
55,000
57,600
"'i-ii7fi
11455
11455
10529
10430
0-8520
(12mins.)
After 10 minutes sustained load.
After 15 minute.s sustained load.
After 10 minutes sustained load.
Beam begins to scale.
Maximum load reached then falling off from distortion of I beam.
Block slip 018" and 0-211" after completion of test.
It -will be noted that under light loads the slip was much the same as in tension
tests and that as the loading- increased the web of the I beam and not the riveting
gave way.
These tests were made for the purpose of obtaining information to throw light
ui)on the fracture of chord A 9-L Quebec Bridge. The discussion of the failure of
this chord will be found in appendix No. 16.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
APPENDIX No. 16.
A DISCUSSION OF THE THEORY OF BUILT-UP COMPRESSION MEMBERS.-
This discussion will be confined to columns of which the cross section is rec-
tangular in outline and which are built up of two or more parallel webs with stiffening
angles, connected by lattice bars, tie plate.s, diaphragms, etc. In such columns the
parallel webs carry the load and the connections serve a subsidiary purpose. For
convenience the wobs, considered apart from their connections, will be termed the
■web system and the connections the lattice system. In many bridges the continuous
cover plates of the top chord belong to both the web system and the lattice system,
inasmuch as they both carry load and serve as connections for the side plates.
In the design of the cross section the arrangement and dimensions of the web
system are first considered. Column formulas based on experiment are used for this
purpose. These formulas give the average unit Stresses under which columns fail
in terms of length and radius of gyration. This radius is taken in the plane
in which the column will probabl.v fail by buckling or bending. A factor of safety
is used in the design and a suitable arrangement of the cross section of the web
system adopted. The web system, in short, is designed from column formulas or the
plotted results of experiments from which these formulas are deduced.
REPORT OF THE COilillSHIONERS 123
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
The design of the lattice system is quite a tlifferent matter. As a rule it depends
on the judgment of the engineer guided solely by experience. He finds little or
nothing in scientific text books or periodicals to assist his judgment. Some lattice
formulas arc in existence, but they are not generally known and their utility is more
or less doubtful owing to the uncertainty of the data and assumptions on which they
are founded. The unsatisfactory nature of the column formulas upon which the
web system is designed is a matter of common knowledge among engineers, but the
column formulas may be considered to represent exact science in comparison with
the lattice formulas.
The lattice system performs two distinct functions. In the case in which each
web of the web system carries its share of the load, that is to say when there is no
transfer of load in any part of the column from one web to another, the lattice system
simply acts as a side support to the web system and by means of it a long web is
divided up into a number of short columns. The stresses thrown into the latticing
in this state cannot be computed. In this case the load on the column is parallel
to the axis but not necessarily coincident with it, and the curvature is assumed to be
negligible. ^Vhen. however, the load is inclined to the axis of the column, the lattice
system has a different function. The angle of inclination may vary from point to
point along the column owing to the curvature of the column. This curvature may
be due to original bends or to the action of the load or to both combined. If the
curvature is sufficiently small the variation of inclination due to it will be negligible.
There remains, however, the original inclination or obliquity which is due to the
method of application of the loads at the ends of the column. If the eccentricity of
application is the same at each end and in the same plane with the axis of the column,
there will be no obliquity other than that arising from the curvature of the webs
which may be negligible. If, however, the eccentricities at the opposite ends are
different or in different directions the obliquity may be of considerable amount. If
the curvature of the column be negligible the obliquity arising from the eccentricity
will be the same at every point. This obliquity causes a transfer of load throughout
the whole length of the column from one web to another. This transfer of load is
accompanied by longitudinal shearing stresses in the lattice system. The obliquity
also causes transverse shearing stresses at every cross section of the column.
If the lattice system is considered to be sufficiently stiff the longitudinal shearing
forces can be derived from the transverse shearing forces by the ordinary processes
of statics as applied to elastic solids, and from them the lattice stresses and the
lattice cross sections may be computed.
If ff is the angle between the direction of the column axis and that of the load,
5 the transverse shear and P the load,
S = P sin 0
and since in practical cases 0 is small this may be written
s=p e
if 9 be expressed in radians or as the ratio of the total -eccentricity to the length
of the column.
This formula holds true also if the curvature of the column is great enough to
require consideration. In such a case 6 varies along the column, and in computations
the column should be divided by cross-sections so close together that the difference in
6 at two neighbouring cross-sections may be disregarded.
So far the problem is comparatively easy — with the next step difficulties begin.
The question now is, — what value of the obliquity shall be chosen in design?
Since the obliquity depends xipon inequality in the eccentricities at the ends,
the maximum difference must be decided upon for design. It would seem reasonable
to assume for this purpose equal eccentricities in opposite directions so that if e be
124 ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
the assumed eccentricity at one end the maximum value of the obliquity will be
given by
I being the length of the column. Against this view, however, it may be urged that
the chances of the maximum value ever being reached are extremely small and that
therefore some smaller value should be chosen.
Evidently the strength of this objection depends upon the value assumed for the
eccentricity. The safe maximum value to be assumed for e depends upon the excel-
lence of the design both of the column and of the splices, on the accuracy of work-
manship, and on the care and precision employed in the erection.
It is impossible to estimate with accuracy the value of e under any set of condi-
tions, but reasonable limits for its values will doubtless be learned from experience
and study. With bad work, and more especially bad fitting and weak splices at butt
joints, the value of e may be much greater than it need be under other conditions of
construction. In design, however, good workmanship and strong splices should be
assumed. Theoretically the cross sections of the latticing should be designed so that
with the assumed eccentricity the lattice and the web systems will get their
ultimate safe stresses simultaneously. This condition will be satisfied if the unit
stress in the latticing has the same factor of safety as the maximum compressive
stress in the web system corresponding to the eccentricity.
P
Let P be the safe load, A the area of the cross-section p = — r-, d the greatest
A
diameter of the cross-section in the plane of the latticing, r its radius of gyration
parallel to d, q the unit stress at the most compressed edge, e the eccentricity of the
load P, then
q = p
an equation which is generally true only within the limit of elasticity — and
quently
(-14)
vhich is g
2 r" q-p
d p
2 e _ 2 2 r* q-p
I I d p
2 2 r' q-
S = P6 = pA
la p
In design all the quantities in the above expressions for e, 0, and S are fixed
without difficulty with the exception of g, the extreme unit stress in the web system.
It is evident from the formula that S becomes zero when q = p. Now the maximum
value of q for which the formula
q = p
(-14)
holds, is in general, the elastic limit. Consequently as p approaches the elastic limit,
S approaches zero. Evidently, when p is equal to the elastic limit, the load must be
central and without obliquity since no part of it can be transferred from one web to
another without inducing stresses in the second web in excess of the elastic limit.
The function of the latticing in such a case is simply to stiffen the webs and,
as has already been said, the accompanying lattice stresses cannot be computed. The
condition necessary for a theoretical computation of the stresses in the latticing is
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 12S
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
that the difference between p and q be reasonably large. Lattice formulas of course
fix a value of 3 in a fashion, but only tests and experience can determine whether
or not these give economical and safe results. Direct tests are difficult to apply and
unless great care is exercised, incorrect inferences may be drawn from them. A
lattice column placed in a testing machine may fail in the web system, but this is
no indication that the lattice system is strong enough for service in a similar column
when in use as a bridge member. It may be that the obliquity of the load was too
small to develop the lattice strength. With a greater obliquity the column might
fail in the lattice system under a much smaller load. In other words, the failure
of the webs is an indication that the full strength of the column has been nearly
developed. The failure of the latticing may not be such an indication. The full
strength of the column can be developed only by axial loading, and under such loading
comparatively weak latticing may serve to develop this strength.
The full strength of the latticing can be developed only by oblique loading. The
column strength in this case must be less than under axial loading.
The case of lower chord A 9 L Quebec bridge is an example of an insufficient
lattice system. The webs bent and the lattices failed under a load only three-fourths
of the specified maximum working load.
DETERMINATION OF THE AREA OF A LATTICE BAR CROSS-SECTION.
The bar must be designed to take equal stresses in tension and compression. Let
P' represent the lattice stress, A' the tension section, A" the compression section q'
the unit stress in tension, q" that in compression. The unit stress q" must be com-
puted by a column formula.
Now P' = fc 8, where k is a coefficient which can be calculated from the known
arrangement and dimensions of the lattice and web system. This calculation will be
taken up later.
q" I d q"
g' and q" in design should have at least the same factor of safety as q.
It may be more convenient in many cases to make A' represent the shearing area
of the rivets and q' the shearing unit stress. The net area of the lattice bar has been
selected in this discussion because in the Quebec bridge it was weaker than the rivet
areas, the lattice bar section being 1-15 sq. ins. and the rivet area 1-80 square inches
(3 rivets).
In the arrangement of the lattice system the free portions of the webs should have
I
a value of less than that of the column as a whole.
LATTICE FORMULAS.
In the foregoing discussion it has been shown that there are two points with
regard to which there must be more or less doubt and in which no aid can be expected
from theory; first, the stresses to which the latticing is exposed when the load is
axial and, second, the value to be assumed for the maximum unit stress in the web
system.
The assumption is made that a satisfactory solution of the second difficulty is
sufficient to provide for the first. All practical lattice formulas determine, in effect,
the value to be assigned to q. The same factor of safety is used for q' and q" as for q.
126 ROTAL COMMISSIOy O.V COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Mr. C. C. Schneider, Consulting Engineer, has called the attention of the Com-
mission to an article on this subject by Professor Prandtl of Goettingen, in the
' Zeitschrift des Vereines deutscher Ingenieure ' of December 28, 1907. Professor
Prandtl assumes that the equation
q = p
(-14)
holds up to the point of failure of the outer web. He makes q the ultimate strengrth
of the portion of the outer web between neighbouring lattice points. He necessarily
makes q' and ^" in the formula for lattice bars represent ultimate strengths. He also
discusses the allowance to be made in the value of r on account of want of stiffness
in the latticing. In other respects his discussion corresponds to ours.
In the same journal a letter appears from Professor Engesser of Karlsruhe, who
also refers to the diminution of r owing to want of stiffness of the latticing. This
letter does not contain sufficient information to enable a reader to follow the line of
thought. However, in the formula for lattice bar areas, he seems to replace — ^—
and by in which q is the ultimate strength of the material and p is the
q" q
ultimate strength of the column which he determines by use of the Tetmajer formula.
He also replaces the factor 2 by tt.
He states that he published his investigations in 1891 and 1893.
Mr. H. S. Prichard in ' Engineering Record,' October 12, 1907, gives a rule
which he had used for several years which makes
S=015P
in other words
l9= 015
Mr. Szlapka, in his evidence, states that after a most painstaking search the only
information he could find on the subject of lattice computations was that given in
Johnson's ' Modern Framed Structures.'
The experience of the Commission is practically similar to that of Mr. Szlapka
for, except the rule in ' Modem Framed Structures,' all the information we have been
able to find has apjieared in the periodical press since the collapse of the Quebec
bridge.
Mr. Bindon B. Stone.v, one of the earlier authorities on bridge construction, has
given a method of computing statically the stresses in lattices based on the assumption
of curvature in the column.
The article in ' Modem Framed Structures ' is as follows : —
' There are no rules other than empirical ones in use by which the size and spacing
of lattice bars for compression members are determined. ... It has been suggested
that, as our compression formiilas all assume a certain extreme fibre stress due to the
flexure of the strut, from this known extreme fibre stress we find an equivalent
uniform load acting in the plane of the latticing which will produce this fibre stress
and from this load find the stress in the lattice bars.'
4 e
This method is equivalent to assuming that q=f and 0= — ^,fbeing taken from
/ -^f
the formula p = f-c — or the formula p = , * / ' \' when applied to the working
stresses.
The value of S thus becomes
I I d p
K4J
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 127
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
. f - p p r A c I
From the straight line formula
p 2 a P
r
So that
P. S r' A c I S A c r
S--
l d P r
From the Raiikine formula
r 7 KTr^J " ~?
led c d
These equations give very different values for S, even though the constant? of
the Eankine formula be computed so that the curve represented by it and the straight
line represented by the straight line formula are tangent at the point corresponding
I
to the value of - - in question,
r
Mr. Szlapka used the riile in ' Modern Framed Structures.' He selected Eankine's
formula and gave c' its value for square bearings. He, however, modified the method
by using a central load instead of a distributed load. This modification had the
effect of making the area of the lattice bar one-half of that given by the method
suggested in ' Modern Framed Structures.'
Mr. Szlapka finally adopted a larger cross-section than his method gave, and
one which, in his judgment, was sufficient.
If he had tested the method fully he would have found it capable of giving areas
ranging up to ten times the area computed by him, a result which would have shown
the indefiniteness of this method. He might, of course, have come to the conclusion
that a rule capable of giving such different results was valueless.
In an article in ' Engineering,' September 27, 1907, Professor Keelhoff of Ghent
University, states that in 1S93 he developed a lattice formula which has been more or
less extensively used. When thrown into the form of the theoretical formula pre-
viouslj- given, the following results are obtained.
Professor Keelhoff multiplies the expression for 6 by the coefficient——. Thus,
2 e tr e
instead _pf 5 = — .— , his method gives 6 = , this change being the result of a
theoretical study in which he adopted Euler's sinusoid curve as the probable form of
a bent column. He also replaces g byf taken from the column formula for working
stresses
p = f-c — .
r
It is thus apparent that the methods of lattice computation which have been used in
practice, when thrown into the form adopted in this discussion, simply assign values
to the unknown q, and in some cases multiply the theoretical obliquity by the factor
2 or -^.
2
128 ROYAL COMMISSWX ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The following is a resume of the lattice formulas discussed in this appendix: —
Theoretical Formulas.
e =
2 r q
d
'-P
V
2 e
2 2 r=
q-p
61 =
I ~
I d
V
3 =
Pe = P
^ I d
r' q-p
'■ P
= A
2 2 r
I d
(3-p)
A'=
h S
■k A ^
2 r' q-
d q'
P
A"
h s
q"
--4
2 r' q
d c
-P
1"
q to be determined by judgment and not to exceed the elastic limit.
q' and q" to have the same factor of safety as q.
Formulas used in Practice.
Prandtl makes q the ultimate strength of the portion of the outer web between
neighbouring lattice points and q' and q" the ultimate strength of the lattice bars
used.
Engesser replaces and bv - - - - respectively, using ultimate values.
q' q" q
He also multiplies 6 by - - i.e. makes 0= —j — .
2 «
Prichard makes 6 constant = 015.
' Modern Framed Structures ' makes g = f of the working stress formula
, ' -^
p = f-c — or p
And also multiplies 6 by 2, i.e. makes 6 =
r 1 +
c' \ r /
4 e
I
Szlapka modified the rule in ' Modern Framed Structures ' by not using the
2 e
multiplier 2 in the value of 6, i.e. made 0-
and also used the formula
f
giving c' its largest value, viz. : — ."^fi.OOO.
KeelhofF makes q = f o{ the working stress formula p = f-c
r
^(t)'
f.nd also multiplies fi l).y — r-
RKl'ORT OF TUB COMMISSIOXERS 129
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Computation of k in formula P' = Jc S.
The method of making this computation will be illustrated by a numerical
example.
For this purpose lower chord A 9 — L Quebec bridge will he taken.
On the assumption that the latticing is sufficiently stiff to enable the webs to act
as a unit, the relation between the longitudinal shear S' in the length of one panel of
latticing and the transverse shear S at the end of the panel is given by the statical
formula S' = — = — where x is the length of one lattice panel, Q the moment of area
about the central axis of the chord cross-section perpendicular to the lattice planes of
that portion of the web cross-section which lies outside the given plane of longitudinali
shear, and / the moment of inertia of the whole chord cross-section about the same
axis.
Evidently maximum S' corresponds to maximum Q which, in chord A 9-L, occurs
between the centre webs. The numerical values are Q = 64-39. a; = 72 • 75. I = 302640,
dimensions being given in inches.
Therefore 5" = 1-55 S between the centre webs. Similarly between the outside
web and the centre web Q = 5313, giving
S' = l-28 S
In a lattice panel there are four bars arranged two and two as the diagonals of a
square of which the side is 54-36 inches, this being the distance between the axes of
the outside webs.
Therefore P' = xy/2=-35 S'
4
P' = • 35 X 1 • 55 5 = ■ 54 S between the centre webs
and P'= -35 X 1-28 iS'=-45 S between an outside web and a centre web.
Thus the values of h are -54 and -45.
From the design of the chord it is evident that the net area of the lattice bar is
governed by h= -54, while the rivets connecting the bar to the outside web are deter-
mined by Z;= -45 and those connecting the bar with the inside web by the difference
of these values, which is -09. That is to say, if 5 rivets were necessary to connect the
bar to the outer web, only one would be required for the connection with the inner"
web.
Transverse shears and bending moments exist in the webs due to the transverse
shear S on the cross-section of the chord.
The maximum transverse shear in the outer web oeciirs in the space between two
consecutive panels of latticing. It is equal to x ■ — xl-28 S=
2 72-75 2
X -747 x 1-28 S= -48 S, if the small bending moments in the webs due to the assumed
distribution of stress at the plane of section be neglected; the maximum shearing
stress on a centre web section is thus -02 S, the sum being -50 S, half the shearing
stress on the cross-section of the chord.
Thus 96 per cent of the transverse shear is carried by the outer webs and only
4 per cent by the inner webs in the space between the panels.
The difficulty of determining theoretically the values to be assigned to the
q — p Q - p
quantities ;— ' — -7- in the formulas
<f 5'
a r- q-p
130 KOYAL COMIIISSIOX ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
has been pointed out. It will be of interest to compare the solutions of this problem
as given by the various methods that have been described by means of a numerical
example and also to compare the corresponding lattice cross-sections.
For this purpose the web system of lower chord A 9-L, Quebec bridge, will be
selected. It will be suficient for the present purpose to consider the formula for the
tension section A'.
In this chord, Z = 6S4 inches, r = 19-Y inches. d = 67-5 inches. A =180 sq. in.
fc=-54
Thus—
2 2x19-7' q-p
4'= -Six 780 X
684 67-5
q-p
= 14 ; — sq. ins.
Prandtl: for outer web between lattice points = 44; ultimate strength of
r
outer web say 48,000 - 210 x 44 = 38,760.
Specified unit load on column p = 24,000.
Tensile strength of lattice bar q' = 60,000.
q-p 38760-24000 14760
3' 60000 60000
A' = Ux •25 = 3-50 sq. ins.
= •25
If the unit load for the column had been determined by the formula p = 16000 - 70 —
= 16000-70x34-7 = 13571, we should have had
q-p _ 38760 - 13571 _ 25189 _
g' ~ 60000 ~ 60000
and 4' = 14x -42 = 5-88 tq. ins.
Engesser: —
g = gr' = 60000
I
p = 48000 -210 — =48000-210x34-7 = 40713
r
q-p 60000-40713 19287
•32
(f "^ 60000 60000
A' = ^ X 14 X -32 = 7-04 sq. ins.
When this formula is used, the cross-section of the latticing does not vary with
the load.
Prichard.-' —
(9= -015
2 2 r' q-p
Now theoretically 6 = ^r — t—
lap
2 2x19-7' q-p
~68i^ 67-5 ^ p
= -0333 ?^^
P
q-p -0150
p 0333
= •45
q-p _q-p p^ _ p _ •45x 24000 _
^ ~ P Y~ ~^~ 40000
r.EVORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 131
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Assuming that 40000 in tension represents the same factor of safety as 24000 (in the
case of tills cohimn) in compression,
= 3-78 sp. ins.
since — ^- is constant for all factors of safety this result applies to all loads.
'Modern Framed Structures': —
(1) Straight line formula.
q = 24000 p = 24000 105 x 34 • 7 = 20356
q' = 30000
q-p _ 24000 - 20356 __ 3644
30000 30000
•12
4' = 2xl4x-?—^ = 28x •12 = 3-36 sq. ins.
q ~ P
In this formula evidently — r— is constant for all factors of safety and therefore
9
for all loads.
(2) Kankine's formula.
Q-P _ f-P
5- q'
</Kr)
<i
assuming p = 24000, c' = 18000, — = 34- 7, 3' = 30000
r
-^^ = 0535
A' = 2 X 14 x^^= 28 X •0535 = 1^50 sq. ins. ;
a
if c' be made 36000 the values are
-^^ = ^0267 A'= -75 sq. ins.
Evidently the same results will be given by aU factors of safety i.e., for all loads.
Mr. Szlapka's method, if he had used the proper value of h, would have given
A' = ^37 sq. ins. He assumed that the panels of latticing were square, whereas they
were oblong and the lattice bars were not diagonals.
In the actual design, however, he made 4' = 1 • 15 sq. ins.
Keelhoff: —
q-p _f-p _ 24000 - 105 X 34^7 _ 24000 - 20356 _ 3644
^ g' 30000 30000 30000
•12
2 g'
= 1^57xl4x ■12 = 2-64 sq. ins.
(7 — 7J
The value of — r-wiU not be altered by using different factors of safety for p,
q and 5' and therefore applies to all loads.
154— vol. i— 9i
132
KOYAL COilillSSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
These results, arranged for comparison, are collected in the following table.
Author.
q-p
A'
Pranfltl
25
42
32
27
12
0535
0267
12
Sq. ID.
3-50
5-88
7 04
378
3-36
1-50
75
2-64
For;) = 24000.
Forp=13o71 from formula p = 16(X)0- 70—
Prichard
" Modern framed structures"
II II
Keelhoff
For all values of p, straight line formula.
For all values of p, Rankine's formula, c'= 18000.
For all values of p, Kankine's formula, c'= 36000.
For all values of p.
Q ~ p
The following list shows the value of — ,—, in chord A 9-L adjusted by multiply-
P
2
ing the original values by the factors and 2 where necessary, for use in the formula
2 2 r2 q-p
Prandtl: ^= 25 ^=24,000
Engesser :
Prichard :
' Modem Framed Structures '
Keelhoff :
= -42 p=13,571 from p=16,000— 70-
= ' 50 for all values of p
= -27
= '24 fur all values of p straight line fommla
= ■ 1070 for all values of p Rankine's formula
= -Ooai I, I.
= • 19 for all values of p
The practical formulae thus give values for the net section of a lattice bar in
chord A 9-L ranging from -75 sq. ins. to 7-04 sq. ins.
The rule in ' Modern Framed Structures ' is capable of giving values ranging
from -75 sq. ins. up to 3-36 sq. ins.
The range of values is even more indefinite than the numerical values indicate,
depending as it does on the varying opinions regarding the values to be assigned to
the constants of the column formulas.
It is evident that the number of rivets necessary to develop the values of the
larger sections given above would make the use of lattice bars impossible. Cover
plates and horizontal diaphragms would be required.
The value of for the out*^ web in chord A 9-L is 44. and for the column as a
r
whole, 34-7. This is not good design as the first value ought to be less than the
second.
REPORT OF THE COilMISSIONERS 133
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
The latticing between the centre webs is inefficient. Intermediate latticing should
have been used on these webs. One of the bars between the centre webs in every panel
on the upper face of the chord A 9-L has a net section of only 115 sq. ins. at the
centre and 1-5 sq. ins. for a length of about 4 inches, whereas between the centre web
and the outside web the section is 2-48 sq. ins.
The bending moments and shears in the webs, the bending moments in the
latticing and the compressive stresses in the latticing due to the load on the column
have not been considered in this discussion. The theory of the design of latticing has
been discussed on the assumption that the curvature in the column under load is
negligible, as it ought to be.
Wlien appreciable bending occurs, the total transverse shear is still given by the
formula S = P 0. On the other hand, when the curvature of the axis of the column
varies from point to point, the longitudinal shear 5' will not be as great in comparison
with 1? as if the column remained straight, on account of part of the transverse shear
being balanced by the resistance to bending of the webs taken individually. Only
the difference between these actions is thrown into the latticing and represented by 5".
A method of dealing with the shears which in some respects is simpler than that
adopted might have been used. This simpler method is based on the assumption that
the small bending stresses at the ends of the webs in a panel of latticing, due to the
assumed unity of the column, may be neglected. In this case q will denote the
average unit stress in the outer web under eccentric loading and not the extreme
unit stress in this web. This method has indeed been partially applied in this
appendix. The results do not differ appreciably from those of the general method
adopted.
Failure of lower chord A 9-L.
In discussing this failure the original conditions will be assumed to hold, that
is S'= -54 S and -45 S between the inner webs and between the inner and outer webs
respectively. It is possible that these two values were closer together owing to the
working loose of the latticing between the inner webs.
Assume P = the load at the time of failure = 14,000.000 lbs. and P' = 50.000 lbs.,
a load sufficient, according to experiments made at Philadelphia, to cause slow move-
ment and rivet slip,
then 5=^^^ = 92,592
•54
Xow s = p e
. S 92592
P 14,000,000
= -0066
Thus if the obliquity = 0066 existed under a load P = 14,000,000 pounds, the
chord would gradually go to destruction.
The measurements made by Messrs. Birks, McLure and Kinloch on August 2Tth,
1907, show when averaged up for the four webs, a deflection of the chord as a whole
of 11 inches at the point between the second and third lattice panels from the south
end. Since no measurements were made to determine the position of the axis of the
chord from panel point to panel point it is impossible to state the real deflection of
the chord, and the only assumption which can be made is that it is represented by the
above amount.
It is not possible to state why the maximum deflection took place at the point
mentioned. There may have been an original deflection ot small amount there, a
defect in workmanship or a local injury from the faU mentioned in Appendix Xo. 11.
The accompanying buckling of chords 8 R and 9 R cantilever arm. shows that
the failure itself was not accidental, although it may have been localized by defects
or accident. The Philadelphia tests show that slip in the lattice system would have
134 ROTAL COilMISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
cormnenced with an obliquity less than one-half of that obtained above and it is
possible that the first movement was caused by a combined stress due to a small
initial obliquity and to the shortening of the chord under stress.
It is hardly necessary to note that, owing to the form taken by the chords, partial
failure in the lattice system must have preceded any failure in the web system.
If now it be assumed that the chord had an original deflection of J inch at the
place in question, the inclination of the axis of the chord in the first panel of latticing
•5
will be found to be r^= -0026 which is greater than in any other panel. To make up
the required obliquity of -0066 it will therefore be necessary to assume that the
direction of the load originally had an obliquity of -0066- -0026= -0040 to the axis.
This would be equivalent to 2| inches in the leng^th of the chord, probably due to an
eccentricity of about J inch to the east at panel point 8-9 and 2J inches to the west
at panel point 9-10.
From the discussion given in this appendix and from the results obtained in the
test of model chord No. 1, it is not difficult to see that failure was certain and close
at hand on August 27th. The evidence shows that the increase of obliquity which
created this danger condition took place between August 2-ith and August 27th.
On August 27th the curvature was such that the line of load which would give the
least maximum obliquities in the chord had an eccentricity with regard to the centre
line adopted for the measurements towards the west of 1| inches at panel point 8-9
and I inches to the east at panel point 9-10, equivalent to an inclination of -004.
As this line of load gives minimum lattice stresses we assume it, for the purposes of
this investigation, to be the true line of load. The inclination of the axis of the chord
in the first panel of latticing at the south end with reference to the same centre line
was about -016, thus making the obliquity of the line of load in this panel about
■016- -004= -012.
The question now occurs how was it possible that the chord could sustain an
obliquity of -012 when an obliquity of -0066 was sufficient to strain the lattices to
the danger point?
If the chord had remained straight, an obliquity of -0066 x -- = -0079 would
50000
have caused immediate failure.
In reply it may be said, as has already been pointed out, that the consideration
of the bending moments in the individual webs accompanying tiie bending of the
chord, the bending moments in the latticing, the compressive stresses in the latticing
due to the load on the columns &c., &c., has heretofore been omitted. Of these the
first appears to be the most important and its effect in aiding the lattice system may
be estimated as follows: —
Let M denote the increase in the bending moments of the outer web in the first
panel of latticing at the south end of the chord, M' the corresponding quantity for
the inner web,
then 54-36 S' = G9 S-2 (M + M')
69£f-2 (M + M')
■'■ ~ 54-36
the length of this panel being 69 inches.
Now the chord in the length of the first two panels of latticing, viz., in 142 inches
has a central deflection of J inch. The radius at the middle point may thus be
computed approximately. The resulting value is r = 10,000 ins. The true radius may
be less than this as the web was probably nearly straight next the cover i)late with
increasing curvature towards the point of greatest deflection. It is even possible
that there was a point of contraflexure near the edge of the cover plate.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS 135
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Now
„ EI 30,000,000 X 366 ^nn ■ i, a
M = = = 1,098,000 inch pounds
r 10,000
,„ EI' 30,000,000x239 „,-^„. , ,
M = = — = 717,000 inch pounds
r 10,000
From what has been said with reference to the change of curvature along the
length of the chord, it is not unreasonable to assume that the above bending moments
represent approximately the increase of bending moment in the length of the first
panel of latticing i.e., in 69 inches from south to north.
Thus
2 (M + M')=2 (1,098,000 + 717,000) =3,630,000
69 g- 3,630,000
■'■ " 54-36
Now
S = P e--- 14,000,000 X -012 = 168,000
,, 69x168,000-3,630,000
54-36
146,468
And P' = ^^ iS' = - 35 X 146,468 = 51,264 pds.
4
Thus on account of the resistance to bending of the individual webs, the obliquity
•012 will produce a stress in the lattice bars of about 51,264 pounds, whereas had the
webs remained straight, an obliquity of only -0079 would have destroyed the lattice
bars.
In the tension experiments described in Appendix No. 15 on lattice bars like
those used in the Quebec bridge the breaking values of P' were 60,100, 59,800 and
59,500 pounds.
In the above calculations the compressive stresses in the lattice bars due to the
compression of the chord as a whole have been neglected.
The above explanation of the failure of this chord under three-quarters of its
maximum working load contains assumptions which render it only tentative. It
indicates the dangerous effects of even small obliquities and deflections on the safety
of a chord with weak latticing. It is quite probable that the obliquity was in great
measure due to movements at the field joint in panel 9-L, which was riveted up, and
at the field joint in panel 10-L which was being riveted up at the time of the collapse.
In fact all the troubles in the lower chords of both anchor and cantilever arms which
developed after August 6, 1907, seem to be partly attributable to movement at the field
joints. These movements were noticed principally in the inner webs, which have
much less horizontal stiffness than the outer webs. These webs were intended to carry
the same unit loads as the outer webs, and yet at the field joints they were connected
to the cover plates with only half as many rivets, the small web angles used not
permitting more. The outer webs with heavy angles and fairly effective latticing
seem to have stood up under the stresses — the small angles and inefficient splicing and
latticing of the inner webs allowed them to jdeld, thus disturbing the intended action
at the field joints and panel points and giving opportunities for unforeseen eccen-
tricities of loading. Heavier angles on the centre webs under the cover plates, heavier
splicing and heavier top and bottom cover plates would have added much to the
efficiency of the joints.
An important function of cover plates is that they maintain the webs or ribs at
their proper distances apart, but in erection, the bottom cover plate was taken off dur-
ing the riveting up of the joint, and was replaced by small angle bars which were
entirely too slight to perform the function of the cover plate. This is shown by the
fact that a much greater movement was noticed at the bottom of the centre webs than
at the top.
See Drawings Nos. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30.
136 ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
TEST OF MODEL CHORD NO. 1.
Made at Phmnixville hy the Phcenix Bridge Company, November 21, 1907.
This chord was essentially a model of chord A 9-L, Quebec bridge, between panel
points. It had, however, no field joint. Its dimensions were one-third of those of
chord A 9-L. (See Drawing- No. 22.) It broke without warning under a load P-
2,322,000 lbs., by the failure of the outside lattice rivets.
The ultimate shearing value of one rivet was 4000 lbs. The lattice angle was
connected with the web by two rivets.
From the foregoing formulas therefore
„ P' 8000 „^_„ ,
iS = -^ — = — -— = 1 1 , ( ( 8 pounds.
k -45
, S 17,778 „^,„
'=-p=-2:s2^m =-'"''
The obliquity of the load which caused the failure was thus -0077, subject to correc-
tion for error of calibration of the testing machine.
TEST OF MODEL CHORD NO. 2.
Made at Phcenixville hy the Royal Commission, January 18, 1908.
The test of chord No. 1 showed that the lattice system was too light, but gave
no indication of the ultimate strength of the column if properly latticed. The
capacity of the Phoenix Iron Company's machine was not sufficient to permit a com-
plete test of this kind. In order, therefore, to get results, a chord with only two webs
was constructed. The dimensions of the webs were one-third of those of the outer
webs of chord A 9-L. (See Drawing No. 23.)
The lattice system, however, was made about twice the strength of that in Model
Chord No. 1 and the length of the model was only 11' -4J" c. to c. of pinholes. The
lattice bars were connected to the web by four rivets instead of two.
This chord fulfilled the expectations of the Commission and broke under a load
of 37,000 pounds per square inch by the yielding of the webs in tlie centre panel.
From what has been said it is evident that this experirpent did not settle the
question of tlie strength of the latticing. Stronger latticing might have been required
in good design. The proper inference is that the obliquity was too small to break the
latticing, so that the full strength of the webs was nearly, if not quite, developed.
Since the inside webs of the Quebec chords are less stiff than the outer webs, it
seems to be a fair inference that 37,000 lbs. per square inch is higher than the strength
of the Quebec chord would have been, even if properly latticed.
Some allowance also must be made for the higher strength and elastic limit of
the small plates and angles used in these models as compared with those in the
bridge.
There is doubt as to the correctness of the calibration of the testing machine, so
that the above figures are subject to correction. In the tests of both models, the
dishing of the webs between the upper and lower lattice systems was small and only
careful measurements rendered its existence apparent.
See Drawings Nos. 21, 22, 23 and 24.
In concluding this iippendix, some brief comment is necessary upon two points, viz:
(1) The Tise made by !Mr. Szlapka of the information existing in 1003 respecting tlie
design of latticing and (2) the application in practice of the theoretical formula
given in our discussion.
(1) The use made by !Mr. Szlapka of the information existing in 1003
respecting the design of latticing. It has been admitted by Mr. Cooper that
he faile<l to give the design of the lower chords the degree of personal atten-
REPORT OF THE COilillSSIONERS- 137
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
tion that he gave to the details of the tension system. The foregoing discussion
shows that even at the present time theories of lattice design are seriously in conflict
and the strength of any lattice system will vary materially according to the formula
adopted. Mr. Szlapka used, with his own modifications, the only system of lattice
computation generally known to American engineers. This method involved the
choice of a column formula from which to determine certain quantities necessary in
the lattice computations. Mr. Szlapka selected the column formula adopted by his
own company, and used the constants for it that, in his judgment, were most in keep-
ing with the conditions of the case and in best accord with the spirit of the specifica-
tion. He made what he considered a liberal increase in his adopted sections over what
his computations called for. The result has shown that his judgment was faulty, but
we are not prepared at this date to define the minimum safe sections for the latticing
for these chords. The profession has learned much from Mr. Szlapka's mistake, but
it is not yet in a position to determine the percentage of his error. The lattices
of model chord Xo. 2 were proportionately only 50 per cent heavier than those used
on the Quebec chords and yet they did not fail until the webs yielded. We have
indicated in the discussion that Mr. Szlapka's attention would soon have been drawn
to the weakness of the theory by which he was guided, had he made any study of the
results given by that theory with different assumptions. No explanation, except the
previous uniform success of compression members in service, can be offered for his
failure to do this.
(2) The application in practice of the theoretical formulas given in our discussion
depends upon our ability to select values of q and p suitable to the detail of construc-
tion in the special column under consideration. The values of p are determined in
practice by the use of column formulas, but no one contends that the range of the
tests upon which these formulas are based is sufficiently extensive to cover all the
conditions that affect column strength; the formulas are simply accepted as the best
guide that we now have. It is evident that by experience values of q and p may he
gradually determined which will make it possible to design latticing that will be
unquestionably safe and not unnecessarily heavy. We may here point out that great
compression members, such as the Quebec bridge chords, call for just as much indi-
vidual study in design as an ordinary small bridge, and that any specification for such
members should give reasonable latitude for the exercise of judgment by the design-
ing engineer.
HEXRY HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY.
J. GALBRAITH.
138 ROYAL COilillSSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX No. 17.
A COMPAEISON OF THE DESIGN FOR CERTAIN CHORDS OF THE
QUEBEC BRIDGE WITH THOSE FOR SIMILAR MEMBERS OF OTHER
GREAT CANTILEVER BRIDGES, ILLUSTRATED WITH OUTLINE
DRAWINGS OF THE BRIDGES AND COPIES OF THE SHOP DRAW-
INGS OF THE CHORDS.
The outlines of six great cantilever bridges are shown on drawings Nos. 31 and
32 and detail plans of the lower chord construction adopted for each bridge, on
drawings Nos. 34, 35 and 36.
The position of the chord selected is shown in each case on the outline drawings,
except for the Forth bridge; the detail drawing for this bridge is simply a sketch
plan showing the general make-up of the main compression members.
In the attached table we introduce for use in comparison, an example giving the
dimensions of an ordinary bridge post of the two channel type, the figures being taken
from Professor Burr's ' Elasticity and Resistance of the Materials of Engineering.'
These dimensions are more or less typical of those latticed columns that have been
used in bridge construction with such success during the last twenty-five years; the
details of such columns are now designed entirely by practical rules.
It will be noted that the Forth bridge chord is in a class by itself. It is not a
latticed section but may be regarded as a solid section built up out of separate plates.
No criticism touching the practical success of this design has ever been made, but it
is not a class of construction that could be adopted by an American bridge company
without making material changes in its shop equipment and methods of handling its
business. We have, however, noted in Appendix No. IS that the work of the Forth
bridge designers is worthy of careful study.
The examples taken from American practice may be divided into three groups: —
(1) Chords of the ordinary two channel type which reaches its maximum develop-
ment in the Monongahela design.
(2) Chords of the four channel type latticed into one column as adopted for the
Memphis and Quebec bridges.
(3) Chords of the four channel type, latticed into two columns which are made to
act together by means of tie-plate connections.
This type was adopted for the Thebes and BlackweU's Island bridges.
In the following table we give the principal dimensions of the chords shown on
the drawings.
REPORT OF THE COilillSSIOXERS
139
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
■saicid 93tjds i«oi;jaA }0 noi^sag
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140 ROYAL COMMISSlOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
It is almost impossible to fiiid any common basis for a comparison of these
chords. It must be remembered that latticing is often uniform in size in members on
the same bridge doing similar service, but having different loads and cross sections.
Thus in the Quebec bridge A 9-L had an area of 781 square inches and A 1-L an
area of 301 square inches, yet both members had about the same outside dimensions
in cross section, and the same latticing. Therefore as the chords selected for the
drawings are not the most heavily stressed chords in the respective bridges, comparison
by proportion of lattice to main sections would be unfair. In fact we may say that
the drawings given are only typical.
A theoretical comparison between the lattice systems of the different columns
might be made by using any one of the various formulas given in Appendix No. 16,
but we have already pointed out that no one of these formulas is generally accepted
by the profession. There are so many causes of variation in the strength of built up
chords of equal area which are not provided for in these formulas that comparison
by calculation does not appear to be satisfactory.
Referring to the table it will be noted that the Quebec chord has considerably
less horizontal stiffness (see values of ), less lattice area, less rivet area, and less
r
splice plate area in proportion to the size of the members than any of the earlier
bridges. It should be remembered also that the unit stresses for the Quebec bridge
were higher than those of the earlier bridges. It will be noted that the earlier
designers considerably overran 15 per cent or 20 per cent of splice plate area. This
is also true of the Quebec bridge chords, but not to the same extent. ITr. Szlapka
states (see Evidence) that splice plates having an area of cross section equal to
15 per cent or 20 per cent of the cross section of the member would be satisfactory.
The development of the detail plans of the Blackwell's Island bridge was contem-
poraneous with that of the Quebec bridge plans; the Quebec designers had not access
to the Blackwell's Island plans. In fairness to the Quebec bridge designers, however,
it should be pointed out that in the Blackwell's Island bridge the proportions of
many of the details are much more nearly in accord with Quebec bridge practice
than are those of the earlier bridges, although the principles of the desigTis are very
different.
A consideration of the difference in the designs on drawings Nos. 34, 35 and 36,
all of which have been prepared under the direction of engineers of recognized ability
and high professional standing, shows that there is as yet no established system of
design for large compression members. The individual judgment of the engineer is
the determining factor, and this may prove to be erroneous as it did in the case of the
Quebec bridge.
The lack of precise knowledge on this subject has been discussed in other
appendices.
HENRY HOLGATE.
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRATTTT.
REPORT OF THE COilMISSIOXERS 141
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
APPENDIX No. 18.
A CKITICAL DISCUSSION OF CERTAIN PARTS OF THE SPECIFI-
CATIONS.
The Quebec bridge was designed to meet the requirements of the specifications
approved by the Dominion government in 1898 and amended in 1903. The method
adopted by the company to procure tenders was to issue a general specification and to
cull upon contractors to prepare plans in accordance therewith.
Considering all the conditions i)ertaining to the undertaking the adoption of this
method was not in the best interests of the work. The company was known not to
have the capital necessary to immediately proceed with construction, and the prepara-
tion of complete preliminary plans would involve a large outlay. The evidence and
documents show that the preliminary plans submitted with the tenders were incom-
plete; this was as might have been expected, as the several contractors who tendered
for the work had little assurance that they would get any return for their expenditure
of time and money.
Specifications as a rule consist of two distinct portions, one of which relates to
design and the other to fabrication, material and execution. In the case of the
Quebec bridge, the difiiculty of preparing an adequate specification for design was very
great. It would have been better to have entrusted the preparation of the plans and
specifications to engineers independent of any contracting or manufacturing company,
whose previous experience qualified them to handle the work. This course would have
avoided duplication of designs involving expensive plans and would have prevented
the letting of a contract on incomplete plans formed upon erroneous data ; the
engineers would have made a proper and sufficient study of the whole project, and in
due time oomi>etitive tenders upon their plans would have been secured, thus enabling
all contractors to tender on a common basis. The privilege of submitting independent
plans might have been extended to the bidders. The reason for not following this
course is explained by Mr. Hoare in his evidence.
The procedure as outlined above would have been applicable to an enterprise
which involved so many new problems and the application of existing knowledge on
so large a scale and which demanded the continual exercise of sound judgment.
An error of judgment made by the Quebec Bridge Company was the selecting of
an engineer who did not possess the necessary special knowledge and experience to
prepare the specification (see Appendix No. 7). It is true that this specification was
considered to be only tentative, drawn up for the purpose of procuring preliminary
tenders, but its history and importance cannot be overlooked. (See Appendix No. 6.)
It became the basis of the contracts between the Quebec Bridge Company and its
contractors, was approved by the government engineers, and was an essential part of
the subsidy agreement whereby the Dominion government undertook to pay the
Quebec Bridge Company on certain conditions, one million dollars (Exhibit 12).
The specification itself (Exhibit No. 21), herein called the 1898 specification,
was for the most part a copy of a specification issued by the Department of Railways
and Canals in 1896; there is nothing in its wording to indicate that the Quebec
bridge was an exceptional structure and without precedent or that the propriety of
applying to this structure other than the usual clauses in bridge specifications was
carefully considered.
142 EOTAL COMMISSIOy 01 COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
We do not think that any engineer would be justified in writing a specification
without consulting freely those specifications most used in practice; specifications
are in fact the statement of the provisions that engineers have in the past been forced
to make in order to secure satisfactory results, and each succeeding revision is the out-
come of experience. Such compilations are necessary and cannot be dispensed with,
but this fact does not justify an engineer whose special experience has not fitt«d him
to judge of the importance of vital clauses, in revising and rearranging them. The
danger in so doing lies in the fact that a clause necessary and useful in one specifica-
tion may not be applicable under other conditions, and opinions on such matters are
valuable only from men of special qualifications. Errors arising from the compilation
of specifications by experienced men are by no means uncommon. Mr. Cooper
recognized this and so revised the specifications of 189S.
In regular bridge practice the specification is of importance particularly because
an American bridge works is a factory for turning out structural steel fabricated in
accordance with plans prepared in the drawing office attached to the works. This
drawing office is a part of the factory, and in it, as throughout, efficiency is obtained
by standardizing and duplication; the drawing office staff consists of a number of
well trained computers and draughtsmen whose duty it is to prepare the shop drawings
for the work and who are under the control and direction of a designing engineer.
Details are designed in accordance with the specifications furnished by the purchaser,
except under circumstances when shop equipment requires some deviation to be made
to secure facility of manufacture. It is not a part of the duty of the drawing office
staff to question the wisdom of the requirements of the specification, nor could the
progress of work throughout the factory be satisfactorily maintained if it should
attempt to do so.
The evidence shows that the Phoenix Bridge Company followed this usual practice
in the preparation of the Quebec bridge designs.
In 1903 it became necessary to design the main spans of the bridge and the 1898
specification was amended by Mr. Cooper, it having been understood ever since 1900
that it would be amended and altered. The history relating to the adoption of these
amendments is given in Appendices Nos. 3 and 6.
Mr. Cooper did not recognize these amendments as complete and final, and con-
sidered that he had the power to deal with each problem of design as it arose, and he
exercised this power when he thought it necessary. The designing of the main span
was left to Mr. Szlapka, Mr. Coox)er having approved the specifications and no one
questioned any decision that these engineers made. The work was done under the
immediate direction of Mr. Szlapka.
Before discussing the specification, it will be well to contrast some of the main
features of the Quebec bridge with those of other cantilever bridges and the following
table is inserted for this purpose: —
INFORMATION CONCERNING GREAT CANTILEVER BRIDGES.
144
ROTAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
INFORMATION CONCERNING
Name.
Date
of
Construc-
tion.
Designer.
Contractor
for
Superstructure.
Span.
Width
C. to C.
Trusses.
Live Lead per
Lin. Foot.
Feet.
Feet.
Lbs.
Forth
Memphis
1882-1889
1886-1892
Baker & Fowler. . .
Geo. S. Moirlson .
Wm. Arrol&Co..
Union Bridge Co. .
1,710
790
Varying, low-
er chord 31i
at ends to
120 at piers.
30
Double track Ry.
2,2-10 lbs. per
track.
Single track Ry.
■1,000 lbs. per
track.
Monongahela .
1902-1903
Boiler & Hodge...
American Bridge
Co.
812
32
Double track Ry.
4,500 lbs. per
track.
Thebes
1902-1905
Noble & Modjeski.
American Bridge
Co.
671
32
Double track Ry.
5,000 lbs. per
track, less 20 p. c.
Blackwell's Is-
land
1901-1908
Dept. Bridges New
York City.
Pennsylvania Steel
Co.
1,182
60
Roadway and trol-
ley ordinary
8,0n0 lbs. con-
gested 11), 000 Ills.
Queliec
1900
Phoenix Bridge Co.
Phoenix Bridge Co.
1,800
67
Double track Ry.,
roadway and
trolley -1,000 lbs.
l>er track. For
extreme condi-
tions mult. 14.
REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS
145
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
GREAT CANTILEVEK BRIDGES.
Ultim.ate
StreiiKtli for Steel
Unit 1,000 lb8.
ox. Weight
Steel in Short
ns per Lin.
1-
Working Stresses— Lbs. per sq. inch.
Allowed Shear
on Rivets —
Lbs. per sq. inch.
■ZXO
Ph
Compression, 76-83.
Tension, 67-74.
m
6 00
Max. stresses.
Compression, 17,000.
Tension 16,350
About 12,000
Compression, 69-78^.
Tension, 66 75.
H
5-88
Compression, 14,000, if 1-: 16d,— deduct 750
lbs. for each additional unit over 16 in
-r : tension for dead load, 20,000 ; tension
a
live load, 10,000.
7,500
Compression, 60-70.
*i
4-3
Compression dead load, 21,000 where — ■; 40.
10,000
Tension, 63-75.
Tension dead load, 22,000. Take one-half
in each case for live load.
62-72.
5
*5i
Compression dead load, 21,000 if y < 16.
Tension, 20,000.
Take J in each case for live load.
7,500
Compression, 60+4.
Tension, 66 ±4. Nick-
el steel eyebars, 85.
13^
*5i
Compression, ordinary, 20,000 ; congest-
ed, 24,000 - lOO-L
Tension, ordinary, 20,000 ; congested, 24,000.
Tension for nickel steel, ordinary, 30,000 ;
congested, 39,000.
Ordinary, 13,000
Congested, 16,000
Compression, 6070.
Tension, 62-70.
13
5-60
Compression, ordinary, 12,000 (l + 4i — '-) ;
extreme, 24,000 ; both for — -. 50.
Tension, ordinary, 12,000 (1+^^
Extreme, 24,000.
5 working stress
=18,000 extreme.
' Not official.
154— vd]. i— 10
146 ROTAL COMMISSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
It is not possible to set forth all the facts in a table with sufficient minuteness
to justify the making of complete comparisons, as many qualifying clauses and special
c'ontlitions are necessarily omitted. Three items of interest may be noted in the
table :—
(1) Only the Forth bridge is at all comparable with the Quebec bridge in regtrj
to span.
(2) Only the Blackwell's Island bridge is comparable with the Quebec bridge in
regard to unit stresses both for main members and for details.
(3) All the bridges included in the table were designed by independent engineeis
except the Quebec bridge.
In this connction we must express the opinion that it is difficult for the employees
of a large manufacturing concern to give the design of a bridge of unique features
the concentrated attention that it requires.
With regard to precedent only the Forth and Blackwell's Island bridges involved
anything like the same total stresses as the Quebec bridge. The design and construc-
tion of the Blackwell's Island bridge was contemporaneous with the Quebec bridge.
The Forth bridge was built on a system not suited to the established American
methods of bridge construction, so that its distinctive features of design, construction
and erection were not followed. It is proper to add that the achievements of the
Forth bridge engineers deserve much closer study than appeai-s to have been given to
them on this continent. Messrs. Baker and Fowler succeeded in erecting a structure
which weighs considerably less per lineal foot than the Quebec bridge and which is
designed to carry about one-half the rolling load and several times the wind load
specified for the Quebec bridge. The main compression chords of the two bridges are
of practically equal are^, but the material in the Forth bridge is of a considerably
higher ultimate strength than that used in the Quebec bridge, the unit stresses are
'less and the design of the- cross section of the chords is such that they should be able
to carry a greater unit stress with safety. On great bridges these are factors to be
observed and it is to be regretted that the stress sheets and full engineering studies in
connection with the Forth bridge have not been published.
It is evident that the designers of the Quebec bridge were compelled to work from
experience gained on much smaller bridges.
In discussing the specification we deal not only with the clauses immediately con-
nected with the downfall, but with others that were not in our judgment calculated
to ensure a safe and satisfactory structure.
The specification is here understood to mean the 1898 sjwcification as amended
in writing by 3Ir. Cooper.
As a document the specification is unsatisfactory, some of the clauses having boon
amended by Mr. Cooper, some set aside in favour of his well known and generally
accepted standard specification and some remaining in force with a context that
altered their meaning. No general or complete revision of the specification embodying
Mr. Cooper's amendments was ever compiled.
As a matter of fact although the 1898 specification was retained as the ofiicial
specification and much of the work done in accordance with it, we believe that ^fr.
Cooper depended upon his own inspection of the plans under the revised specifications
to secure satisfactorj' details. His opinions upon most debatable questions of design
were well known to the staff of the Phivnix Bridge Company, which had previousl.v
designed and built man.v structures under his direction and was accustomed to his
methods. It is on record that the Phoenix Bridge Company requested Mr. Cooper to
set aside the 1898 specifications altogether and to substitute for them his own
standard specifications.
A complete bridge specification must set forth the character of the material that
is to be used, the loadings that are to be carried, the stresses to lie permitted in the
members and provisions concerning details, fabrication iind erection to be obser\-ed;
in fact everj'thing essential to the proper carrj-ing out of the work as intended.
REPORT OF THE COMMI.^SIOXERS 147
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
The 189S specification for material was used without alteration except in one
particular, Mr. Cooper having raised the minimum limit for the ultimate strength
of eyebar material from G0,000 lbs. to 62,000. The metal specified was the ordinary
grade of structural steel.
It will be noted by reference to the table that the Quebec bridge si)ecification
•■ailed for material of slightly lower ultimate strength than that used in any of the
other bridges while the bridge itself had the longest span of all. The need of a better
material tlian structural steel for the construction of long span bridges is generally
recognized, because the decrease of total weight and consequently of cost in a large
truss with increase of permissible unit stress is very rapid. In the Quebec bridge the
dead load stresses constituted roughly two-thirds of the stress on the main members.
The designers of the other two great bridges introduced special grades of steel
so that high unit stresses could be safely used. The Forth bridges engineers were
not permitted to load their metal to more than one-fourth its tensile strength,
and for compression, used a steel of about 25 per cent stronger than that supplied for
Quebec. Nickel steel with a permissible unit stress 50 per cent higher than allowed
on material in the same bridge and similar to that used at Quebec was introduced
into bridge practice by the Blaekwell's Island bridge engineers. The use of this alloy
as a structural material was investigated and favourably reported upon in 1903 by a
special commission of which Mr. Cooper was a member.
It was Mr. Cooper's opinion that it was wiser to use the ordinary grade of metal
for the Quebec bridge and to load it to the highest working stresses that were con-
sidered practically safe.
I ELASTIC LIMIT.
^Ve do not know whether Mr. Cooper in his amendments intended the term
' elastic limit ' to mean the elastic limit of a test specimen or of a full sized member.
There is also some uncertainty as to the true meaning of the term ' elastic limit,'
which is unfortunate as the maximum working stresses specified are made to depend
upon this characteristic of the material.
The ' elastic limit ' accepted by bridge designers as a controlling factor in their
work cannot be determined by the m.ethod prescribed by the 1898 specification, and yet
this method (the drop of the beam) was used. Both Mr. Cooper in his standard speci-
fications and the engineers for the Blaekwell's Island bridge provide for a much
closer determination of this characteristic. In reality the determination is a delicate
and time consuming process for a research laboratory and impossible under the condi-
tions existing in a rolling-mill; to such an extent is this true that it is not called for
in the carefully prepared specification issued by the American Railway Engineering
and Maintenance of Way Association in 1906. The principle apparently followed in
the latter specification is that mill tests are sufficient for mill purposes and that the
true elastic limit can be most safely obtained by proportion from the ultimate
strength. The assumption generally made is that the true elastic limit for structural
steel is about 50 per cent of the ultimate strength.
The material actually supplied for the bridge was r^rularly tested and a com-
parison between its probable elastic limit and the 32.000 lbs. per sq. in. apparently
expected by Mr. Cooper, is possible. The full size eyebar tests, a record of which
will be found in Exhibit 86, show that the metal in service shape had a safe ultimate
strength not in excess of 55,000 lbs. per sq. in. and a reported elastic limit of 28,000
lbs. per sq. in. These tests were made on long bars in the Phoenix Iron Company's
large testing machine and the results might be reduced by calibration of the machine
and closer observation of the elastic limit. It will be noticed that the proposed
extreme working stresses (24,000 lbs. per sq. in for the Quebec bridge were nearly
equal to the elastic limit of the eyebars.
The elastic limit in compression was assumed in accordance with the usual
practice to be the same as that in tension. An examination of the voluminous test
154— vol. i — lOJ
148 ROTAL COMillSSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
records (Ex. No. 28) shows that an ultimate strength in excess of 60,000 lbs. per sq.
in. was not regularly secured, so that, accepting the 50 per cent relation metationed
above, the elastic limit in compression becomes 30,0Q0 lbs. per sq. in. It should be
noted that these tests were made on specimens of about one-half of one sq. in.
sectional areas. The compression members were built up of wide thin plates riveted
together into webs. We know of no test that has ever been made to establish the
relation between the strength and elastic limit of such plates and those of small test
specimens, nor do we know what effect the punching, riveting and painting have on
the material in the webs as compared with the solid plate. It was noted at the wreck
that the paint between the plates of members that had been fabricated for over three
years was still fluid. From the analysis of full-sized tension tests we think it possible
that the elastic limit of the plates in the compression members was not much above
27,000 lbs. per sq. in. instead of 32,000 lbs. as apparently assumed.
UNIT STRESSES.
The maximum unit stresses that Mr. Cooper proposed to use were about 21.000
lbs. per sq. in. under ordinary loading and 24,000 lbs. per sq. in. under extreme con-
ditions. He considered that the extreme conditions as specified would never occur.
By reference to the table it will be seen that the specified stresses for the Quebec
bridge under working conditions are in advance of currnt practice and we believe
that they are without precedent in the history of bridge engineering. Under extreme
conditions the Quebec bridge stresses are in general harmony with those permitted in
the Blackwell's Island bridge.
We have already indicated that the dimensions of the Quebec bridge were such
that the use of the highest safe unit stresses was justifiable and good engineering
practice. If we were sure that the loads were correctly estimated, that the stresses
acted in the bridge exactly in accordance with the assumptions and that the elastic
limit of the built-up members was not less than 32,000 lbs. per sq. in, 24,000 Iba.
per sq. in would not be an unsafe stress for structural steel, provided that the material
is regular in quality and the details satisfactorily worked out to suit such a stress.
Mr. Cooper provided for the effect of live load by the use of the so-called fatigue or
formula. This method which was formerlv much used has more recently been
max
abandoned in general practice and is not adopted by Mr. Cooper in his standard
specifications. In the hands of an experienced engineer this method will be made to
produce much the same results as the more modern impact formulas. We do not
know why this formula was used in this case, except that it was adopted by ^[r. Hoare
in 1898 from the 1896 specifications of the Department of Railways and Canals and
was probably retained in 1903 for convenience.
Mr. Cooper adopted the ordinary straight line formula for compression members
making the dead load unit stress equal to (24,000 - 100 - - ) lbs. per sq. in. We have
r
already indicated in Appendix No. 13 that this formula is purely empirical and does
not agree particularly well with the recorded tests upon large columns. It is the most
generally accepted formula of practice, but we do not believe that the engineering pro-
fession has at present a satisfactory knowledge of the action of large steel columns.
There is a wide field for experiment which must be worked over before engineers
can claim to have a sufficient knowh^lge of steel to design botli safely and economically,
and perhaps the most serious criticism of the structural engineers of the present day
is (.hilt they have permitted this field to remain undovi^loped for twenty-five years' dur-
during which time they have adopted a new metal for their work and new shapes and
sections.
We think that in popular engineering opinion the ultimate strength of steel
columns is largely over-cstimat;d, the diagram on drawing No. 20 indicntii\g that for
REPORT OF THE COMillSSlOXERS li9
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
the Quebec chords it was not safe to expect an ultimate strength in excess of 32,000
lbs. per sq. in, so that under the extreme conditions specified the margin of safety
would only have been one-third.
This is a point on which current engineering practice is open to direct criticism.
The older engineers, upon the results of whose experiments the profession is now
depending, did not think of loading metal in compression to the unit stress used in
tension because they recognized that the ultimate unit strength of members in com-
pression was far less than that of members in tension.
rill- Inter scIkidI of engineers seems to have adopted the principle that the action
of bridge members under stresses in excess of the elastic limit is a matter of indiffer-
ence as they will never le so stressed. The action within the elastic limit being practi-
cally the same under both conditions, they adopt the same working stresses in tension
and in compression. Their practice has been attended with complete success, but this
may be attributed to the fact that the material has ordinarily not been stressed to much
above half the elastic limit.
Under the Quebec bridge conditions, where high working stresses were imjjerative,
the wisdom of the practice of loading in compression as heavily as in tension becomes
questionable. We believe that in no great public structure should stresses be permitted
in excess of one-half of the ultimate strength of any compression member, no matter
how high the elastic limit may be.
It will be noted that Mr. Cooper in specifying the stresses for the lower chords of
I
the Quebec bridge omitted the term in the column formula containing the ratio
r
In this practice he is supported by the engineers of the Monongahela and Thebes
bridges, who made a similar provision, but reduced the maximum stress to that allowed
I
by the usual formula for a column with — equal about 40.
r
The failure of the Quebec chords does not prove that Mr. Cooper was theoretically
incorrect and cannot be directly connected with this clause in the specification. The
specification, however, permitted stresses in advance of any previous practice and the
proportioning of columns to safely carry such stresses is yet to be learned.
We have already pointed out the seriousness of the error made in the estimation
of the dead load which resulted in computed stresses nearly 10 per cent higher (.see
Evidence) than had been expected. A comparison of these computed stresses with the
elastic limit of the material as estimated from the test records will show how narrow
a margin of safety was provided in the actual design.
We are not prepared in the present status of the art of bridge building to approve
the unit stresses stated in the amended specification.
Rn-ET STRESSES.
It w'ill be note! from the table that the rivet stresses used were much in excess
of previous practice. These seem to have been adopted almost by an oversight. The
1898 specification CQptained a clause usual in low stress specifications, permitting the
rivets to be worked to three quarters of the allowed stress in the member. This clause
was not cancelled by the 1903 amendments and under extreme conditions permitted a
stress in rivet shear of 18,000 lbs. per sq. in. The tests made in 1904 under the
direction of the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance of Way Association
have established the fact that a riveted connection begins to work under a stress in
rivet shear betweeen 12,000 and 15,000 lbs. per sq. in. and that deformation in even a
simple connection is marked when a stress of 25,000 lbs. per sq. in, is reached. These
results have been confirmed both in tension and compression by the tests made for the
commissioners (see Appendix Xo. 15). It is therefore clear that the Quebec specifica-
tion permitted the use of stresses in details which were outside the limits of established
150 ROYAL COMillSmoy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
practice and are now know to be unsafe. Knowledge of the action of the rivets in
riveted connections is very incomplete.
BUILT DP COLUMNS.
In our findings we have stated "that the bridge failed through weakness of the
lower chords and particularly in the latticing of those chords. In Appendix No. 16
will be found a discussion of lattice design and of the data that Mr. Szlapka had to
guide him in his work. The main outline of the latticing in the Quebec bridge was
sketched as early as 1898. There was practically nothing in the specification that was
of any service to the designers in this connection and they violated none of its
provisions in the design. There are some clauses dealing with latticing, but they
were copied from small bridge practice and were wholly inadequate for the Quebec
structure. The main criticism that can be made of the designers was that they had
the means of checking their theories by use of the testing machine and that they did
not do this nor did they thoroughly stud.y the possibilities of lattice formulas.
LOADINGS.
In 1903 ilr. Cooper revised the loadings, increasing the specified train loads and
decreasing the wind pressures. While ilr. Cooper undoubtedly made an improvement
on the 1898 si)eeification in this respect, he does not seem to have taken full advantage
of the improved financial situation due to the decision of the government to guarantee
the Quebec Bridge Company's securities. This is explained by Mr. Cooper in his
evidence in which there is no reference to the chmiged financial condi-
tions. (See Appendix Xo. .5.) Mr. Cooper apparently did not realize the great
change in the traffic conditions that would probably foUow the opening of the
N'atioiuil Traneontinental Railway nor the demands for transportation resulting from
the rapid development of Canada. His specified train loading is not greater than
that \is"d re":ii!:i'-ly i-i Canaflian uractice and is lighter than that subsequently adopted
for the National Transcontinental Railway, and sufficient provision was not made for
probable increases of live load.
Considering together the high unit stresses permitted and the loads specified, the
specification was not for a bridge well suited to the purposes it would have been called
upon to serve.
DEAD LOAD.
The specification requires that the dead load used for calculating the stresses shall
not be less than the actual weight of the structure when completed. The evidence
bhows that the designers failed to comply with this requirement. The effect of their
error is shown on drawing No. 4 (see also exhibits !>8, 100 and 101). In view of the
high unit stresses specified this error was serious enough to have required the con-
demnation of the bridge even if it had not failed from errors in the design of the
compression chords.
The obvious intention of the clause was to compel the designers to check their
assumed dead loads by actual calculations from their detailed drawings as soon as these
were developed, and it carried with it an obligation on the consulting engineer not to
approve any drawings until he was satisfied that the assumed weights were ample.
It is not customary in practice to be exacting about the observation of this clause
because the weight of an ordinary span for a given loading can be very closely esti-
mated; but no excuse can be offered for applying the precendents of practice to a
structure that was entirely outside the range of experience. No evidence has been
given to show that any effort was made either in the Phopnix Britlge Company's office
or by the consulting engineer to check the assumed weights at the earlirat possible
date and the error was passed without notice until a large portion of the bridge had
REPORT OF THE COilillSSIONERS 151
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
been actually built in the shops and the members weighed. It is in evidence, and we
have aln^ady stated, that the scale weights were within 1 per cent of the weights as
finally computed from the drawings. The consequences of this error were considered
by Mr. Szlapka and Mr. Cooper before erection was resumed in 1906 and they state
that it was their opinion that the error was not fatal to the safety of the bridge, and
the work of erection was proceeded with.
ERECTIOX.
No special provision is made in the specification for an oversight of the methods
of erection by the Quebec Bridge and Railway Company's engineer, or for his approval
of the general system of erection, or of the means adopted to solve the various pro-
blems arising in connection with it. There is no evidence to show that anyone outside
the Phoenix Bridge Company attempted to deal with this practical problem. Mr.
Cooper states that the erection plans and devices were not subject to his approval
although he was advised of them unofficially and general progress on erection was
regularly reported to him.
It was apparently intended, as is the usual practice, to leave all such arrange-
)nents in the hands of the contractor, making him provide all necessary plant and
holding him responsible for everything that might happen.
The erection staff of a large construction company is best qualified by experience
to design erection plant. We are of opinion, however, that the erection difficulties to
be met with on a structure like the Quebec bridge are so serious and the necessary
risks to be run during erection are so great that if the employment of a bridge
engineer is necessary at all. it is especially necessary in this connection. In fact the
responsible engineer on such a project should direct the work in all its branches and
the contractor is entitled to look to him as a trained specialist for instructions and
assistance at all times and especially in emergencies.
The specification throughout shows that the whole subject was not considered
with sufficient care not only from a technical standpoint but from the practical or
business standpoint as well. Inconsistencies are of frequent occurrence; ambiguity
and lack of precise definition pervade the whole, and we desire to direct particular
attention in this connection to the important clauses 4, 5, 6, which read as follows : —
(4) After the stress sheets have been approved and before the construction of any
part of the structure shall be proceeded with, complete working drawings shall be
furnished, showing all details of construction, which shall conform to the general
design, shapes and dimensions shown on the stress sheets and to the conditions of this
specification. The drawings shall be approved by the engineer before the work of
construction is proceeded with.
DRAWINGS.
(5) After the final detail drawings referred to have been approved by the
engineer, the contractor is to prepare his shop drawings from the detail drawings,
complying carefully therewith, and making no changes without the written consent of
the engineer. Working drawings are to be sent in triplicate for the approval of the
engineer, who will retain two sets and return the third after making thereon any
corrections required, after which the required number of corrected sets will be sent
by the contractor to the engineer without delay. The approval of the said working
drawings will not relieve the contractor from the responsibility of any errors thereon.
(6) The requisite number of copies of general and detail drawings for all pur-
poses shall be furnished by the contractor upon orders of the engineer.
HEXRT HOLGATE,
Chairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
152 ROTA.L COllMIS.-ilOX OX COLLAPSE OF QVEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
APPENDIX No. 19.
MISCELLANEOUS— QUEBEC BRIDGE INQUTRY.
WEATHER CONDITIONS.
The temperatures and wind velocities for some weeks preceding the accident are
shown on drawing Xo. 37. It will be noted that there were no exceptional conditions
in either case, both temperature and wind being moderate and usual. The wind
blowing at the time of the accident was so light that wind pressure has not been
included in calculating the stresses existing at that time. The drawing shows a wind
velocity late in the day on August 29, of about 25 miles per hour, which would theoreti-
cally produce the almost negligible pressure of about 2 lbs. per sq. ft., on the truss
surface exposed. The form of the truss is such that a correct analysis of the wind
forces is most difficult to make and it was considered that less error would result from
the neglecting of these forces than from an effort to determine them accurately.
A list of the maximum wind velocity recorded at the Quebec observatory is given
on drawing No. 37. This list indicates that the pressure of 25 lbs. per sq. ft. assumed
in the 1898 specifications was sufficient for the site, a wind velocity of nearly 90 miles
per hour being necessary to produce such a pressure.
The following record of deflections, which is filed as Exhibit No. 55 is of interest
as furnishing data for predicting the movements of cantilever'arms under wind.
OBSERVATIONS ON THE DEFLECTION OF THE CANTILEVER ARM UNDER HEAVY WINDS.
November 12, 1906. — Front leg of large traveller at P-1. Panel 2 of cantilever
arm partly erected. East wind 55 miles an hour. Deflection taken on middle of first
transverse strut above deck between posts P-1.
Deflection observed — 2J inches.
November 16. 1906. — Front leg of large traveller at P-1. Panel 2 of cantilever
arm almost completed. East wind, 65 miles an hour. Deflection taken at same point.
Deflection observed — 3J inches.
February 3, 1907. — Front leg of large traveller at T O cantilever arm erected
complete. West wind. 45 miles an hour. Deflection taken at same point.
Deflection observed — 2 inches.
HENRY HOLGATE,
Ohairman.
J. G. G. KERRY,
J. GALBRAITH.
7-8 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154 A. 1908
REPORT
DESIGN OF QUEBEC BRIDGE.
13y C-. C. SCITNEIDER.
Pennsylvanu Buildkg,
Phil.vdelphu, Pa., January, 1908.
Sir, — By telegram of September 9, the writer was appointed by you, on behalf of
the Dominion government, with the approval of the Honourable the Minister of Rail-
ways and Canals, for the following purposes: —
' To inquire into and pass upon the sufficiency of the present design of the Quebec
bridge, which collapsed on the 29th of August, 1907; to thoroughly examine the
plans of the superstructure and members thereof, itc. ; to look thoroughly into all
matters in connection witth the proposed reconstruction of the said bridge, and to
state whether, in his opinion, the present design is sufficient.'
After receiving your verbal instructions, the writer visited the site of the Quebec
bridge in order to examine the collapsed structure; and immediately commenced to
collect such information as might aid him in his work, and proceeded with the exam-
ination of the plans, which he received from your department, September 17, 1907.
Not being limited in the scope of his investigations, he understands his duty to
be to report on the following questions : —
First. — The sufficiency of the present plans of the Quebec bridge, as to their
conformity to the specifications as approved by the government.
Second. — The advisability of modifications in the present plans, should they be
found inadequate, using as far as practicable the fabricated material now on hand.
Third. — The advisability of discarding the present plans of the Quebec bridge,
and recommendations as to a new design.
The writer has thoroughly investigated the subject submitted to him, and now
has the honour to submit the following report : — •
The present design of the Quebec bridge is a cantilever of l,SOO-feet span
between centres of piers, with a suspended span of 675 feet, two cantilever arms each
562 feet 6 inches long, and two anchor arms each 500 feet long; making a total
length of 2,800 feet, not including the approach spans, which will not be considered
in this report. The transverse distance between centres of trusses is 67 feet. The
bridge is to carry two steam railway tracks and a roadway on each side 17 feet wide
in the clear, suitable for ordinary highway traffic, with one electric railway track on
each roadway.
The writer has computed the strains resulting from the loads given in the specifi-
cations as revised by Mr. Theodore Cooper, March 2, 1904, a copy of which is attached
to this report in Appendix A.
In comparing the results of his computations with the strain diagrams submitted
by the Phoenix Bridge Company, he has come to the following conclusions : — ■
154 ROTAL CUilMISSIOX OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1903
Floor system. — The sections required in the floor-beams and stringers conform to
those required by the specifications.
Trusses. — The strains in the trusses resulting from the live load agree with those
computed by the writer. The strains from the dead load as computed by the writer,
however, are greater than those shown on the diagram submitted by the Phoenix
Bridge Company, for the reason that the actual weight of the steel superstructure
is in excess of that estimated previous to its construction.
Bracing. — The strains and sections of the various members composing the lateral
and sway bracing of the trusses and the bracing of the floor system as well as their
details and connections are in accordance with the requirements of the specifications.
Appendix B accompanying this report gives the writer's computations of the
strains in the main members of the trusses. The strains resulting from the dead
load are based on the actual weight of the structure taken from the shipping weights
of the steel work and distributed in accordance with the positions of the various
members, thus representing the conditions which would exist in the finished structure.
These loads as concentrated on the various panel points of the trusses are shown on
diagram included in Appendix B. The table also contains the sectional areas of the
members as shown in the shop drawings, the unit strains required by the specifica-
tions and the unit strains as they would occur in the completed structure, based on
the actual weight of the members; also strains occurring during erection under con-
ditions existing August 29, 1907.
The tables in Appendix B have been computed in accordance with the writer's
interpretations of the specifications, which are:
That the value of — -. — '- by which the permissible unit strains are determined
min.
is derived from the dead and live loads only; but that in proportioning the members
these unit strains shall be used for the sum of the strains from dead, live and snow
loads.
That as the specifications require that ' only J of the maximum wind force need
be considered in proportioning the chords,' and nothing is mentioned in reference to
the web system, this also applies to wind strains in web members.
That in the formulte under the head of ' Combined and reversed strains,' Li
denotes the live load strain of opposite sign from that of the dead load; that the
expression 'D — Li' is the arithmetical difference between these strains; and that
' D + L + Li' is the arithmetical sum of these strains.
By examination of this table, it will be noticed that the actual unit strains in
most of the members of the trusses exceed the limits of the specifications. In the
upper chords of the cantilever arm (excepting in the panels from IT2 to Uc, which
were proportioned for the erection strains), from 10 to 18 per cent; and in the lower
chords (with the exception of the panels from Lo to L4. which were also proportioned
for the erection strains), from 7 '5 to 24 per cent. In the upper and lower chords of
the anchor arms, the unit strains in all panels exceed these limits from 11 to 20 per
cent. The unit strains in the chords of the suspended span also exceed the limits of
the specifications: the upper chords 16 to 18 per cent; the lower chords from 7i to
9J per cent. While the strains in some web members come within the limits, in some
cases the.v are in excess as much as 21 per cent, and in one case 57 per cent. The
trusses, therefore, as designed, do not conforui in this respect to the requirements of
the specifications approved by the government.
However, there are other points affecting the strength of the structure, not
covered by the requirements of the six^eifications, to which the writer begs to call your
attention. These refer more particularly to certain details which appear to have
been left to the judgment of the designer.
The writer considers the details the most imjiortant part-s of the design of a
permanent structure, even more so than the general proportions of its members.
REPORT OF C. C. SCHNEIDER 155
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Most of the details and connections have received careful and conscientious considera-
tion, and are generally in proportion to the members which they connect and in
accordance with the standards of good practice. However, there is a deficiency in
many of the compression members, as their connections — such as the latticing — are
not sufficient to make the parts composing them act as a unit. The most pronounced
defect in this respect exists in the lower chord members of the cantilever and anchor
arms. These members consist of four separate ribs, not particularly well developed
as compression members, and their connections to each other are not of suiBcient
strength to make them act as a unit.
As discussions on this subject have of late appeared in print, asserting that a
scientific method of proportioning the latticing of compression members is not known,
the writer takes exception to these statements, and claims that the strains in lattice
bars can be computed with enough accuracy to make them sufficient to develop the
full strength of the member.
A discussion on the theory and strength of compression members, including an
analysis of the strains in lattice bars, will be found in Appendix C accompanying this
report.
DISCUSSION' OF PERMISSIBLE UNIT STRADCS.
As the present design of the trusses of the Quebec bridge does not conform in
all respects to the requirements of the approved specifications, the question arises :
Are the trusses as designed strong enough to carry the specified loads without consider-
ing' the specifications?
In order to decide that question it is necessary to consider the maximum imit
strains which might be permitted in the members of the trusses as coming within the
limits of safety. If we knew all the strains occurring in a member of a structure,
and if the material and workmanship were perfect, we could allow strains up to the
true elastic limit of the material. These ideal conditions of material and workman-
ship, however, cannot be realized in practice, and in addition to the computed direct
strains on which the proportions of the members are based, there are secondary strains
produced by the bending from their own weight and deformation of the trusses under
load. Allowance must, therefore, be made for these contingencies in determining on
unit strains which may be considered within the limits of safety.
The specifications provide for two kinds of live loads for the trusses: —
First. A live load consisting of a train on each track. The strains produced by
this load, together with the dead load and specified snow load, are limited to a certain
unit strain per square inch.
Second. A provision for future increase of 50 per cent in the live load. For the
strains produced by this extreme live load, together with the dead and specified snow
loads combined with the wind force, a higher unit strain is specified.
The first case will be called hereafter the working load, and the second case the
extreme load. The strains produced by the working load, which is by no means
excessive, should leave a reasonable margin for safety. The strains produced by the
extreme loads should remain within the elastic limit of the material.
Tension Members:
Eyehars. — The elastic limit in full-sized annealed eyebars cannot be depended upon
to be more than 28,000 pounds per square inch. A direct tension of 24.000 pounds
per square inch, together with secondary strains caused by the friction on the pins
during deformation, and the uncertainty of a uniform distribution of the strains over
all the bars, may increase the strain to at least 27,000 pounds per square inch, which is
just within the elastic limit, with practically no margin for safety.
A strain of 21,000 pounds per square inch in direct tension combined with the
secondary strains, &e., may produce an extreme fibre strain of about 24,000 pounds
156 ' EOTAL COJfilJSSIOX ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
per square inch, or % of the elastic limit of the eyebars. The unit strains to be
allowed on eyebars for direct tension, therefore, should not exceed 24,000 pounds per
square inch for the extreme load.
Compression Members: —
In accordance with the accepted theory of compression members, the fibre strain
near the center of a column increases in proportion of the length to the least radius
of gyration, and, therefore, an allowance must be made for the buckling caused by
the tendency to bend.
The usual practice in bridges of ordinary span is to consider the gross section of
the compression members in computing their strength. This is generally done in
connection with the conservative unit strains of about half of the elastic limit, thus
giving a considerable margin for safety; but in the case of the Quebec bridge, where
the unit strains are unusually high, approaching the elastic limit, the net areas of the
members should be used in estimating the safe limit. Some of the compression mem-
bers consist of sections which are composed of angles and a number of plates riveted
together. The rivet holes reduce the sectional area, and, while these holes are filled up
with rivets, they do not fill the holes so perfectly as to make them take the place of
the material punched out of the rivet holes. In some of the lower chord members,
the net section is about 86 per cent of the gross section, and the elastic limit, which is
estimated to be 32,000 pounds per square inch, is thereby reduced to about 27,500
pounds per square inch of gross area. If we, therefore, assume the maximum permis-
sible unit strain on the gross section for the specified extreme loading as 24,000 pounds
per square inch, and the secondary strains as only 3,000 pounds per square inch, or
approximately 12i per cent of the direct strain, the total fibre strain per square inch
would be 24,000 + 3,000 ^ 27,000 pounds. This strain nearly reaches the elastic limit
of 27,500 pounds per square inch with scarcely any margin for safety.
The maximum permissible strain of 24,000 pounds per square inch for the direct
compression caused by the extreme load would have to be reduced in accordance with
the accepted formulae for compression members, making it 24,000 — 100 '/^ > where
l:=length, and r = least radius of gyration of member.
For the working load there should be the same margin for safety as in tension
members. As stated before, the elastic limit in compression members, owing to the
reduction of their sections by the rivet holes, may be reduced to 27,500 pounds per
square inch of gross section. Deducting 3,000 pounds per square inch for secondary
strains would leave 24,500 pounds per square inch on the gross section as the maxi-
mum strain in direct compression within the elastic limit. Allowing % of this strain
the same as for tension members, we have 21,000 pounds per square inch as permis-
sible strain for direct compression, which should be reduced by the usual formulae,
making it 21,000 — 90 '7^. These limiting strains should be applied to all compression
members. The writer does not advocate these high imit strains, but only desires to
fix a limit within which the strains may be considered safe, and which could be used
in comparison with the tables in Appendix B.
The extreme unit strains within which in the writer's judgment the structure
may be considered to be able to sustain the loads provided for in the specifications
are: —
First. For the dead and live loads combined with the snow load : For tension,
21,000 pounds per square inch of net section ; for compression, 21,000 — 90 '/r Per
square inch of gross section.
Second. For the extreme provision of IJ times the live loadidead and snow loads,
combined with J of the wind strains: For tension, 24.000 pounds per square inch of
net section; for compression, 24,000 — 100 '/^ V^ square inch of gross section.
The table included in Appendix B gives these unit strains for different ratios
"fVr. ...
By applying the above unit strains to the trusses of the cantilever and anchor
arms in the present design of the Quebec bridge, we find the following discrepancies:
REPORT OF C. C. SCnXEIDER 157
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
CANTILEVER AND ANCHOR ARMS.
Upper Chords.
The upper chords are composed of eyebars for which the maximum permissible
strain as stated above should not exceed 21,000 pounds per square inch for the work-
ing load, and 24,000 pounds per square inch for the extreme load.
The tables in Appendix B show that the strains in all panels, excepting those
from 1^2 to Uo of the cantilever arm, are in excess of these limits for either case of
loading.
Lower Chords.
The lower chord in itself is not pin-connected, but is composed of a number of
sections butting against each other and connected with splice plates. If the lower
chords of the cantilever and anchor arms were strictly pin-connected, that is, bearing
against the pin only, the strains would act in the axis of the member without any
other bending movements from the dead load than those caused by the friction of the
pin in the pin hole, as they would be able to rotate around the pins and thus adjust
themselves during erection.
If the lower chords were continuous members and fully spliced, and the web
members rigidly connected to them similar to those of the Firth of Forth bridge or
the suspended span, the strains produced by the deformation would become an impor-
tant factor, but could be approximately calculated and provided for in the sections.
Since, however, the lower chord members of the Quebec bridge are butt-jointed, they
are neither continuous nor pin-connected, and it is impossible to make the whole
section bear uniformly under the various conditions of loading.
With accurate workmanship and proper method of erection, the joints of the
chord members may come to a full and even bearing for one condition of loading, and
in this condition the strains would be transmitted from one section to another in
the direction of their axis and distributed over their entire cross-section. For all
other conditions of loading, the strains are transmitted eccentrically, thus producing
secondary strains in addition to the direct strains and those produced by the initial
eccentricity inherent in all compression members. These secondary strains will be
found in Appendix D accompanying this report.
By comparing the strains in the tables in Appendix B with the limits fixed by the
vfriter, we find that all the lower chord members are deficient (with the exception of
Lo to L4 of the cantilever arm) and would not be strong enough to safely carry the
specified loads provided for in the specifications, even if they had been properly braced
with lattice bars of sufficient strength ; and that the inadequate latticing shown on
the drawings would still further reduce their strength.
Weh System: —
The web system of the trusses of the cantilever and anchor arms is composed
of tension and compression members. The main posts are pin-connected to the upper
and lower chords, while the web members among themselves are only partly pin-
connected ; that is. the diagonals, with the exception of the one nearest the center
\post, are eyebars and pin-connected at both ends.
Some of the sub-diagonals and floor-beam suspenders are compression and others
tension members. The connections of the sub-diagonals are riveted at both ends. The
floor-beam suspenders are pin-connected to the lower chord, but have riveted connec-
tions at their intersections with the main diagonals and sub-diagonals.
From the tables in Appendix B it is evident that the strains in the posts of the
cantilever and anchor arms are excessive (with the exception of Ls-Us), also in about
one-half of the diagonals. The strains in the center posts are also excessive. The
strains in the floor-beam suspenders, and in the sub-diagonals come practically within
the safe limits.
158 ROTAL COMillSf-IOy 0_V COLLAPSE OP QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Suspended Span: —
The trusses of the suspended span are practically riveted structures with the
chords fully spliced and the web members rigidly connected, exeepting the main or
tension diagonals, which consist of eyebars pin-connected at their ends.
The weakest parts of the suspended span are the upper chords (see Appendix B),
their unit strains being from 44 to 48 per cent in excess of the safe limits fixed by
the writer. The strains in the lower chords and web members, excepting Uo-Ci and
C1-L2, are practically within those limits.
Sufficiency of Specifications: —
In considering the sufiiciency of the specifications, the question arises : Would
the trusses of the Quebec bridge have been safe if they had been designed to comply
with the requirements of the specifications and the details had been in proportion to
the strength of the members?
By referring to the tables in Appendix B, we find that the permissible unit strains
limited by the specifications for the two kinds of loading, that is, the working load and
the extreme load, are close to, or within the limits of those determined by the writer
in all members of the trusses of the cantilever and anchor arms, except in the lower
chords and in the posts over piers, for which strains are permitted beyond these
limits.
In connection with this subject, the writer believes it to be within the scope of
his investigations to report upon the specifications for the Quebec bridge.
The purpose of these specifications has evidentl.v been to keep all the strains,
even for the extreme loading, well within the elastic limit of the material. That this
has not been realized in all the members of the structure is evident from a study of
the tables in Appendix B. The writer has already given his reasons for recommending
limiting unit strains, and has shown that the specifications permit too high unit
strains for the posts over the piers and for the lower chord of the cantilever and
anchor arms. The writer also considers the use of a formula for the permissible
strains based on the minimum and maximiun strains in each member, as given in the
specifications of the Quebec bridge, to be unsuitable for practical purposes, as it is
not supported b.v facts established by recent experiments, and causes unnecessary
complications in the computation of the strength of the members; giving besides
anomalous results.
The well-established theory of the elastic line is based on strains within the
elastic limit. As a single strain above the elastic limit produces a permanent set and
destroys the property of uniform elongation in the metal, its effect is not different
from the effect of repeated strains, the single strain having practically destroyed the
usefulness of the material. The elastic limit, therefore, is actually the ultimate
strength for all practical purposes.
The static effect of a live load is the same as that of a dead load, depending upon
the amount and distribution of the load onl.v. The dynamic effect of a live load,
commonly called impact, however, depends upon the conditions under which the live
load is applied. The conditions which affect the impact on a railwa.v bridge are tho
conditions of the track, the dynamic action produced b.v the deflection of the bridge,
the action of insufficientl.v balanced drivers, the reciprocal motion and vibration of
the machinery and the velocity of the train.
As the static and dynamic effects of a live load depend each upon such entirely
different conditions, it seems rational to consider each separately in order to arrive
at a more scientific solution of the problem of deteruiiuing the safe working strains
in railwa.v bridges. As the internal strain of a member in a structure is proportional
t'l il^ flniifjution or reduction in length, it is evi(k>nt that it makes no difference, ns
far as the resistance of the material is concerned, whether this strain is produced b.v
the weight of the structure, by the static effect of a superimposed load, or by the
REPORT OF C. C. SCHNEIDER 159
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
dynamic effect of a moving load. If, therefore, the impact is added to the live load,
reducing its effect to that of a static load, a uniform permissible strain may be used,
thus avoiding complications and making the strength of the details and connections
in proportion to that of the main members, as the impact applies to all parts.
RECOMMENDATIONS AS TO THE RECONSTRUCTION OF THE QUEBEC BRIDGE.
As it is evident from the writer's investigations that the trusses of the present
design are not of sufficient strength to carry the loads provided for in the specifica-
tions, the question arises:
Can the fabricated members of the remaining half of the Quebec bridge, or a
portion thereof, be utilized in the reconstruction of the bridge?
This might be accomplished in two different ways :
First. — By using the remaining portion of the floor system and reinforcing the
remaining merpbers of the trusses; rebuilding only that portion which has been
wrecked.
The members composing the floor system and the lateral bracing of the remain-
ing half of the bridge might be utilized in the reconstructed bridge. However, to
make the bridge strong enough to carry the specified loads with a reasonable margin
of safety, the sections of most of the members of the trusses would have to be
increased. An examination of the detail plans of the members of the trusses from
the standpoint of a manufacturer of structural steel work has convinced the writer
that this is impracticable.
The weakest parts of the trusses of the anchor and cantilever arms are the lower
chord members. Their sectional areas would have to be increased at least 50 per cent
in order to reduce the unit strains to safe limits. The only way this could be done
would be to cut them apart, drill additional rivet holes and rivet them up again with
additional material. During these various manipulations the members would become
distorted, and would require the reboring of the pin holes to larger size, and the
refacing of the ends. This refacing would shorten the members enough to make them
useless. The use of the remaining chord members is, therefore, impracticable. The
same applies to most of the other compression members.
The upper chords of the cantilever and anchor arms being composed entirely of
eyebars could be reinforced with additional bars, which would requiie in some panels
as much as 20 per cent additional material. This operation would not only reqiiire
new pins, but also the changing of the upper ends of the posts to which they are
attached. The writer, therefore, considers it impracticable to iise any of the finished
truss members of the remaining half of the bridge.
Rpcfind. — By using the present floor system and building new trusses, following
the same outlines as in the present design, but proportioning the members and connec-
tions for the loads provided for in the specifications.
If the remaining portion of the floor system and bracing, weighing about
8,000,000 pounds, were to be used in the new structure, it would require for the
trusses a design similar to the present one, and also, the same distance between the
posts to which the floorbeams are attached. This is almost an impossible task, and
further as. in the writer's opinion, the present design of the trusses can be improved
upon, the new design should be worked out on entirely different lines to avoid many
of the complications and obiectimp.hl? :leatures existing in the present design.
A third proposition is to adopt an entirely new design, retaining only tho length
of span in order to use the present main piers, with some modifications. The anchor-
age piers would have to be partially rebuilt as new anchorages would be required.
Eeferring to the features which appear to be objectionable in the present design,
the writer begs to call your attention to the following: —
The polygonal lower chords of the cantilever and anchor arms are not well adapted
for a cantilever bridge on account of the difliculties in fabrication and proper fitting.
ISO ROTAL COMillSSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
which make them not only more costly than chords forming a straight line, but also
less safe. The polygonal chords of the present design produce a reversal of strains
in some -web members, which on that account require not only more material than
members with strains in one direction only, but also cause unnecessary complications
in their details and connections.
The wind forces in a rationally designed bridge should produce strains in the
chords, the lateral and sway bracing only. On account of the shape of the chords of
the Quebec Bridge, the wind strains affect also the web members of the trusses, pro-
ducing in these members additional strains, consequently requiring in these members
more material and more complicated details.
The writer considers that in a rationally designed structure the strains should be
carried in the most direct line to the piers. The more complicated the design and the
oftener the strains have to change their direction before reaching their destination,
the more assumptions have to be made, which again rediice the degree of accuracy of
the results of the computations; therefore, the simpler the design, the safer it will
be with the same unit strains.
CONCLUSIONS.
The results of the writer's investigations and his recommendations may be briefly
summarized as follows: —
First. — The floor system and bracing are of sufficient strength to safely carry the
traffic for which they were intended.
Second. — The trusses, as shown in the design submitted to the writer, do not
CI nform to the requirements of the approved sjwcifications, and are inadequate to carry
the traffic or loads specified.
Third. — The latticing of many of the compression members is not in proportion
to the sections of the members which they connect.
Fourth. — The trusses of the bridge, even if they had been designed in accordance
with the approved specifications, wovld not be of sufficient strength in all their parts
to safely sustain the loads provided for in the specifications.
Fifth. — It is impracticable to use the fabricated material now on hand in the
reconstruction of the bridge.
Sixth. — The present design is not well adapted to a structure of the magnitude of
the Quebec Bridge and should, therefore, be discarded and a different design adopted
for the new bridge, retaining only the length of the spans in order to use the present
piers.
Seventh. — The writer considers the present piers strong enough to carry a
heavier structure, assuming that the bearing capacity of the foundations is sufficient
to sustain the increased pressure.
This report is accompanied by the following Appendices:
A. — Copy of revised specifications.
B. — Tables containing computations of strains in the members of the trusses, a
table giving i)ermissible strains for compression members, also diagrams of dead load
concentrations and loads and strains during erection, August 29, 19&7 (20 prints.)
C. — ^Review of the literature on the theory of compression members up to the .
present time.
D. — Investigation of secondary strains in trusses.
Respectfully submitted,
0. r. SCimEIDER.
M. J. BUTI.F.R, Esq.,
Deputy Jfinister and Chief Engineer,
Department of Railways and Canals.
REPORT OF C. C. SCBXEIDER 161
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
APPENDIX A.
QUEBEC BRIDGE SPECIFICATIONS FOE LOADS AND STRAINS FOR
CANTILEVER AND SUSPENDED SPANS, BY THEODORE COOPER.
FLOOR SYSTEM.
Railroad Stringers. — To be designed to carry Cooper's E-40 engines with unit
strains not exceeding 10,000 lbs. per square inch of net section.
Trolley Stringers. — Loaded with cars weighing 56,000 lbs. on two axles ten feet
apart, not to be strained above 13,000 lbs. per square inch of net section. Cars thirty
feet over all.
Highway Stringers. — Loaded with 24,000 lbs. on two axles ten feet apart, strains
not to exceed 15,000 lbs. per square inch of net section.
Transverse Floor Beams. — With all tracks loaded as above they must not be
strained above 15,000 lbs. per square inch of net section, or 12,000 lbs. with both
railroad tracks loaded.
The webs of all girders shall be considered as resisting shearing strains only and
will not be estimated as doing any flange duty.
TRUSSES.
The maximum strains produced by the following live loads and wind shall be
used for proportioning all members of the trusses or towers : —
1st. A continuous train of any length weighing 3,000 lbs. per foot of track, mov-
ing in either direction on each track.
2nd. A train nine hundred feet long consisting of two E-.33 engines followed by
a load of 3,300 lbs. per lin, ft. upon each railroad track and moving in either direc-
tion.
3rd. A train load 550 feet long consisting of one E-40 engine followed by 4,000
lbs. per lin. ft. of track, on each track.
4th. For the suspended span a lateral wind force of 700 lbs. per lin. ft. of the top
chord and 1,700 lbs. per lin. ft. of the lower chord, one half of which shall be used for
lateral and diagonal bracing.
For the cantilever and anchor arms a lateral force of 500 lbs. on the top chord
and 1.000 lbs. on the lower chord, per lin. ft. in addition to the wind force on the
suspended span, shall be considered.
Only one-third of this maximum wind force need be considered in proportioning
the chords. It shall be considered as a live load. Unless this increases the strains
due to the live and dead loads only more than 25 per cent the sections need not be
increased.
Reversal of strains by the wind acting in opposite directions need not be con-
sidered ; but where the maximum wind forces reverse the strains in any member the
member miist be designed to resist each kind of strain.
Allowed Wor\-ing Strains. — Under the above working loads in combination with
the dead loads, the allowed strains in all members of the trusses and towers shall not
exceed the following limits: —
154— vol. i— 11'
162 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Tension Chords and Diagonals. —
/ Min \„ . ,
12,000 I 1 + — J lbs. per sq. in. of net section.
\ Max /
Compression Chords. — (Where I does not exceed 50 r).
12,000 ( 1+ j per sq. in.
Main Posts. —
I 12,000 - 50 \ 11+ — j lbs. per sq. in.
TRUSSED FLOORBEAMS.
Tension Struts. —
10,000 ( 1+ ,'" I for E. E. loading.
/ . Min \
/ Min \
n Struts. —
( 10,000 - 40 — ) ( 1 + 4f— - ) for ^- K- loading,
(^12,000 - 50 — ^ ( 1 + ^.^^ for total loading.
12.000 / 1 + I for total loading.
Compression Struts.
WIND STRUTS AND LATERALS.
Tension. — 20,000 lbs. per sq. in.
Compression. — 20,000 - 90 per sq. in.
r
For counters and intermediate posts, the live load on the railroad tracks shall he
increased 15 per cent.
COMBINED AND REVERSED STRAINS.
The allowed positive and negative strains upon any member subject to any com-
bination of ± Z), rt L, =p L' shall be determined by the following formulae: —
Allowed ± Strain, 12,000 ( 1+ — — - — =r7- )
Allowed rp Strain, 12,000 |
PROVISION FOR FUTURE INCREASE OF LIVE LOAD.
In addition to the previous provisions as to the working 'loads and strains, no
member of the trusses or towers shall be strained to exceed three-quarters of the
elastic limit under the extreme assumption of an increase in the train loads of 50
per cent above those previously specified. Or, not to exceed 24,000 for the chords and
main diagonals, or 24,000 - 100 — for the posts.
r
The material to be medium steel of the best (juality niid made by the open hearth
process.
All details, proportion of parts, workmanship, &c., to be in accordance with the
best acceptcfl practice.
Corrected to date, ;^^arch 2, 1904.
Apponda. June 1."?, 1905.
For the cantilever arms, the full wind on the suspended span should be considered.
A snow load of 1,600 lbs. per foot of bridge should be used.
SESSIONAL PAPEP!
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ROYAL COilMISSIOX ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
f/»£^e^o^/^-^f,{^} .—^^o/^^^o *^'7 ~/»/t/9^
REPORT OF C. C. SCHNEIDER 183
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
EEPORT ON DESIGN OF QUEBEC BRIDGE BY C. C. SCHNEIDER.
APPENDIX C.
THEORY OF COLUMNS.
A REVIEW OF EXISTING LITERATURE AND EXPERIMENTS.
An ideal column with a straight axis and of uniform material, loaded in the
direction of its axis, would fail in direct compression by crushing. In practice, a
column will fail by buckling caused by lateral deflection.
Failure by direct compression or tension is caused by strains which exceed the
resistance of the material. Since these strains are in direct proportion to the loads
causing them, it became customary to measure the safety of a structure by the ratio
of the working strain to the ultimate strength, instead of by the ratio of the permis-
sible load to the load causing failure.
Failure by buckling, however, is not necessarily the result of overstraining the
material, as the strains are not in direct proportion to the corresponding loads (see
examples page 192), but depend upon certain conditions which influence the strength
of a column considered as a member of a structure.
Perhai)s the clearest conception of buckling can be obtained by considering it as
the result of unstable equilibrium between the external and internal forces. Assuming
a steel spring (Fig. 1) rigidly fixed at the bottom, and loaded
at the top with a weight W, then the spring will slightly
deflect laterally, but will remain in equilibrium. If W is
gradually increased, a condition will be reached where
equilibrium is no more possible, and the weight will drop
suddenly. The spring has lost its supporting power at this
moment of unstability, but the weight may go to the bottom
without producing any excessive strains in the spring.
The lateral deflection of a column is caused by an initial
eccentricity as the load will not be exactly in the center, nor
the axis be mathematically straight and the material uniform
J -^ throughout the column, owing to irregularities in rolling, or
^^^^^W^^^^^ caused by straightening, riveting, drifting, &c. (In an
Fig- 1 I-beam 8 feet long, Bauschinger found a variation of 5 per
cent, in the elastic modulus and in the ultimate strength.)
This initial eccentricity and the deflection produced by it will cause bending and
shearing strains in the column in addition to direct compression.
The average compressive strain obtained by dividing the buckling load — that is,
the load under which the column fails — by the area of its section is called the buckling
strain.
I. Long Columns.
In order to find a formula for the buckling strain, long columns v-hich fail with
a buckling strain within the elastic limit will first be considered. To apply to these
the theory of elasticity is not strictly correct, as the maximum fibre strain may have
exceeded the elastic limit; however, this, as will be shown later, affects the buckling
load only very slightly. The true elastic limit for wrought iron and steel is almost
identical with the limit of proportionality between strain and deformation.
184
ROYAL COMMISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Let it be assumed that an elastic column with hinged ends free to move in the
direction of its original axis, and subjected to an axial load P, has been deflected
laterally (see fig 2). Neglecting the shortening of the column
and the influence of the shearing strains, and assuming s = x,
the elastic line is represented by the differential equation
dx' ~EI
(1)
■where bending moment M = Py, 7 = Moment of Inertia of the
section, and i/ = Modulus of Elasticity of the material of the
column.
Twice integrating,
then »/ = 8 sin x -. /
IP
\m
where 8 = deflection at the centre.
The elastic line, therefore, is a sinus curve
for x = l, and y = o, then from equation (2)
(2)
FicJ. 2
Po = ^-
m_
T-
(3)
as the load which holds the internal strains in equilibrium.
This formula is known as Euler's formula, having been first introduced by Euler
in 1759. Since this formula does not contain 8, Pq is the load which, after a lateral
deflection is once started, may increase this deflection, and with it the fibre strain,
rapidly and finally produce buckling. This buckling load, therefore, is independent of
the strength of the material as long as E remains the same.
According to Euler's formula, a column made of steel containing 3 per cent
nickel, with an ultimate strength about 50 per cent higher than ordinary carbon steel,
could safely carry a load only about 4 per cent greater than an identical column made
of ordinary carbon steel; that is, in proportion of the moduli of elasticity.
On account of the assumptions made in deriving formula (3), P„ does not correctly
represent the buckling load. More correct formulae have been derived by Grashof,
(Festigkeits Lehre, published 1S66) who gives
.= £//. .= 8=. ^^^
and by Wm. Cain, (Trans. A.
S. C. E., Vol. XXXIX.) who derives
'--K-Jf-^]
(5)
An investigation of formulae (4) and (5) shows that if P exceeds P^ = -
■'El
tain deflection 8 corresponds to the load P ; but that a very small increase over P„ is
sufBcient to make the deflection excessive and cause failure; so that P^ can practically
be regarded as the buckling load. In these fonuulir for 8 = o. P^P^. in Filler's
formula ; in other words, P„ represents the load under which bending just begins, so
that for smaller loads than P^ the compressive strains are uniformly distributed over
the section.
REPORT OF C. C. SCESEIDER
185
-.if.
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
In formulae (3), (4) and (5), the initial eccentricity 'e' (fig. 3) has been assumed
negrlig-ible as compared with the deflection S. Investigation of the formula given on
I page 191 for eccentric loading shows that any load P, even below P^, can
produce deflection ; but if the eccentricity ' e '' is small, the buckling
load will be only slightly smaller than P„, although the maximum fibre
strain produced ihereby may be higher than the buckling strain. This
is another reason for regarding Pg as the actual buckling load. A
greater initial eccentricity will reduce the buckling load by giving
fibre strains above the limits of safety.
On this basis, many attempts have been made to derive formulae
giving the load which would cause failure by excessive fibre strains.
(See J. il. Moncrieff. Trans. A. S. C. E., Vol., XLV.)
The yield point must be regarded as the highest safe fibre strain,
because as soon as it is exceeded the deflection increases rapidly until
finally failure occurs.
On the other hand, an initial bend in the column can counteract
the initial eccentricity of the load, keeping the column in stable
equilibrium even for a greater load than P^. These cumulative
influences explain the different actions of columns in testing as
regards deflections and breaking loads.
As it is impossible to determine for every case the initial
buckling formula has to be derived for the case of an ideal, or nearly
provided this formula agrees with the results of experiments made
under conditions as nearly as possible like those of the ideal column.
In determining the safe working load, the lowest test result should be used with
d margin of safety.
Similar conditions occur in bending. The permissible strain for bending is
derived from the ultimate strength with the provision that under the worst condition
the fibre strain shall remain below the yield point.
Column tests, especially those with point bearings made by Tetmajer and
Bauschinger, prove that for long columns, which fail with a buckling strain within
the elastic limit, Euler's formula gives correct results. (See L. v. Tetmajer, 'Die
Gesetze der Knickungs festigkeit,' 3rd edition, Leipzig and Wien, 1903, also, ' Mit-
teilungen der Materiel Priifungsanstalt,' Miinchen, 1SS7, by Bauschinger.)
Euler's formula (3) does not give the greatest strains actually existing in a
column. This has caused the introduction of various formulae which apparently
express the relation between the load and the corresponding greatest strain. Since,
however, as has been seen, strains in buckling are very uncertain, all the formulae
based on strains contain one or more coefficients, the values of which have to be
derived empirically from the buckling load of column tests. Dividing the buckling
strain thus found by a factor of safety, the formulse represent more or less correctly
safe loads, but they do not give the actual safe unit strains.
One of these is the extensively used ' Rankine Formula.'
A.„ — 72
eccentricity, a
ideal column ;
1 + c
(6)
vvtiere l'o = buckling strain, l\ an assumed constant approximately equal to the yield
point and c a constant to be derived from tests. It has been proven, however, by
experiments and analytically, that c is not constant but varies not only with the
materia], but also with the value of — and with the average tinit strain. Tetmajer
T
found by tests a variation of c = 0000448 to 0 000136 for wrought iron, and
c = 0000370 to 0- 000130 for steel.
186 ROTAl COMMISSIOy OS COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
The fact that it is possible to give k^ and c such values that k„ corresponds fairly
I
well with observed buckling strains within the practical limits of — makes the
r
formula applicable to practical use. It thus becomes an empirical formula.
Dividing P^ by the area, Euler's formula takes the following form: —
K = ^'E~ (7)
where Jc^ represents the buckling strain. Giving k^ the value of the elastic limit, and
solving for — , the limit for Euler's formula is found to be
Tetmajer found the following values: —
I
For wrought iron with an elastic limit = 22,600, =112
soft steel " '• =27,100, — =105
r
medium steel " " =28,400, — = 105
r
and with E = 28,450,000, 30,580,000 and 32,000,000 respectively,
Euler's formula becomes
fco = 280,800,000 (-^) for wrought iron,
to = 301,800,000 (^-|V' soft steel,
k„ = 315,900,000 f —^ " medium steel.
II. Short Columns.
Thus far this subject has been considered theoretically only, in order to give a
clear account of the nature of buckling. Columns which fail with buckling strains
above the elastic limit will now be considered. These include the majority of cases
occurring in actual practice.
Since, as shown above, Euler's formula is limited, and is applicable to steel
columns only whose — exceeds 105, it appears desirable to consider the subject wholly
r
from a practical standpoint and endeavour to find an empirical buckling formula based
on experiments.
The first question to be considered is: What is the buckling strain for a very
I
short column (theoretically — = o) ?
r
Fig. 4 represents the typical deformation diagram for wrought iron or steel, the
abscissas t representing the elongations corresponding to the stresses k as ordinates.
P denotes the limit of proportionality, or elastic limit, and I' the yield point. Up to
the elastic limit, the modulus of elasticity E for wrought iron imd steel is constant,
but is variable for higher strains. If the values of E for strains above the elastic limit
REPORT OF C. C. SCByEIDER
187
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
were known and applied to Euler's formula, it would still express correctly the buckling
load.
_--£- ;
Fig. 4- Fig.S
Drawing a tangent to the curve at a point E, the corresponding modulus of
elasticity may be represented by
„ dk
introducing this in Euler's formula and solving for
I
then4=-J4^
This equation enables us to construct the curve of Fig. 5, where the abscissas repre-
sent the values and the ordinates the strains Jc. If point E travels on the straight
line from 0 to P, E is constant - Eg = tg a„ and point E' follows Euler's curve from
O' to P', the corresponding values of — for point P' being those given on page 186.
r
If point E continues from P to Y, tg a gradually decreases from tg oo to zero,
while point E' travels over curve P' Y' and — gradually becomes zero.
r
This means that a very short column becomes unstable when the buckling strain
reaches the yield point, since this is the point of first horizontal tangency. As is well
known, the yield point, commercially called elastic limit, manifests itself in testing
by the sudden drop of the test load.
Cast iron does not follow the law of proportionality, nor has it a yield point (see
deformation diagram, fig. 6).
U _Ui
1
..:frti _
O'— 'CX3
Fig 6
Fig. 7
188 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
tg a decreases from the point of zero strain, and becomes zero -n-here the tangent
to the deformation curve becomes horizontal; that is, at the point U of ultimate
I
strength l-„. Point K' does not follow Euler's curve (fig-. 7) but reaches U, for
r
= 0 in a more regular parabolic curve. The buckling strain for very short columns
a-0
is therefore equal to the ultimate strength. This explains the fact that
short cast iron columns show a much higher resistance to buckling than wrought iron
or ordinary steel columns.
If tests were madewith short columns of very hard steel, in which the yield point
and ultimate strength are close together, these tests would evidently also show a pro-
portionately greater buckling strength than those of ordinary steel.
While some engineers are of the opinion that the ultimate strength in tension
should be regarded as the buckling strain for = 0, others have recognized the yield
r
point as this ultimate buckling strain. (See J. B. Johnson's 'Modern Framed Struc-
tures.' p. 159.)
What is generally called yield point (about 60 to 70 per cent of the ultimate
strength for steel") is an apparent strain obtained from tension tests based on the
original area of the bar. Since the area of the bar has decreased, the true yield point
must be higher, and this is equal to the true yield point in compression. The apparent
yield point in compression based on the original area of the compression member 'is
still higher since in compression the area has increased and this yield point must be
regarded as ultimate buckling strain, because the latter is also based on the original
area.
Since the increase of the area is not known, the ultimate buckling strain must be
found from tests. Undoubtedly a column of say = 5 in the testing machine acts
r
practically the same as one of — = 0 ; that is, the strain is uniformly distributed up
r
to the breaking point, since any accidental eccentricity would cause only very small
bending strains. The buckling strains thus found can, therefore, be considered as
the ultimate buckling strain for — = 0.
r
Tetmajer found for this strain which he calls ' a kind of compressive strength,
different from, but comparable to the crushing strength of cubes,' the following values:
Lbs. per sq. in.
For wrought iron k^ = 43,100
" soft steel fc„ = 44,100
" medium steel l\ = 45,700
A rational column formula should contain these values as the limiting buckling
I
strain for — = 0 and give buckling strains decreasing from this limit with increasing
I '■
r
The curve representing this formula should, moreover, intersect Euler's curve at
the point for which k^ is equal to the true elastic limit. As this latter strain as well
as the yield point is more or less variable, even in the same material, it is evident that
points P' and Y' (fig. 5) can be chosen within certain limits. Owing to the greatly
vnrj'ing test results, it is also evident that a great number of different curves can be
drawn between points P' and Y' as representing approximately the average of the
plotted test results.
REPORT OF C. C. SCBXEIDER 189
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
For all practical purposes, the simplest curve is naturally the best and that ia
the straight line.
The writer considers that all these more or less complicated analytical formulsB
(like Rankie's, &c.) are not justified. Analytical formulae based on the theory of
proportionality between the strain and deformation (with a constant E) cease to be
correct for the buckling strains which are now being considered; and have been made
applicable to the latter by merely choosing empirical coefficients.
The following publications contain the results of column tests and diagrams,
with the results plotted and the different curves representing the formula. An
examination will show that the straight line fits at least as well as any curve: —
1.— L. F. G. Bouscaren. Trans. A.S.C.E., Vol. IX.
2. — J. Christie, ' Experiments on the Strength of Wrought Iron Struts.' Trans.
A.S.C.E., Vol. xni.
3.— T. H. Johnson, ' On the Strength of Columns.' Trans. A.S.C.E., Vol. XV.
4.— G. A. Marshall. Trans. A.S.C.E., Vol. XVII.
5. — C. L. Strobel, ' Experiments upon Z-Iron Columns.' Trans. A.S.G.E.,
Vol. xvni.
6.— Tests of Metals made at Watertown Arsenal. Vols. 1881, 1882, 1883, 1884
and 1885.
7.— A. Marston, ' On the Theory of the Ideal Column.' Trans. A.S.C.E., Vol.
XXXIX.
8.^J. M. Moncrieff, ' The Practical Column.' Trans. A.S.G.E., Vol. XLV.
9. — Johnson, Bryan and Tumeaure, ' The Modern Framed Structures.' 8th
Edition, page 168.
10. — G. Lanza, ' Applied Mechanics,' page 416.
11. — L. V. Tetmajer, ' Die Gesetze der Knickungs festigkeit.' 3rd Edition, 1903.
12. — Prof. Bauschinger, ' Mitteilungen der Material priif ungsanthalt Miinchen.'
15th Vol.
The straight line formula
K = K-c— (8)
was first proposed in 1SS6 by T. H. Johnson (see Trans. A.S.C.E., Vol. XV.) and is
now generally used. He derived it from tests of wrought and cast iron and steel
columns made by Hodgkinson, Christie and others under greatly varying conditions,
and proposed for columns with round ends, the following buckling strength: —
I I
Wrought iron, 42,000 - 203 , upper limit — = 138
r r
I I
Carbon 0-12%, soft steel, 52,500-284 , '•' =123
r r
I I
" 0-36^, hard steel, 80,000-534 — , " — = loo
r r
They represent straight lines drawn from l\ tangent to Euler's curve. Bv refer-
ring to the above-mentioned tests, it is evident that Ar„ is too high for steel, while the
point of meeting Euler's curve is too low. A less inclined line, taking the former
point lower and the latter higher would give more correct results.
Based on his own numerous tests of wrought iron and steel columns with point
bearings, L. v. Tetmajer introduced a stright line formula, at the same time proving
the correctness of Euler's formula for buckling strains lower than the elastic limit.
190 ROYAL COMMISSION ON COLLAPSE OF QVEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
(See ' Mitteilungen der Material Priifungsanstalt, Ziirieh,' Vol. VIII, also L. v.
Tetmajer, ' Die Gesetze der Knickungs festigkeit,' 3rd part, 1903.) He proposed for
I I _
Wrought iron, k^ = 43,100 - 183 — — ;? 112
r ' r ^
Ultimate strength < 57,000, soft steel, i- = 44.100 - 162 — — 7 105.
r ' r ^
" > 57.000, medium steel, i-„ = 45.700- 165 — — 5 105
r ' r ^
I
Since steel columns with > 105 are used for unimportant parts only, and the
^ . I
difference between Euler's and the straight line formula is only small for — from
r
105 to 120 (which is generally the practical limit), it is justifiable to use the straight
line formula throughout.
The permissible unit strain for tension is usually deduced from the ultimate
strength; while that for compression must be deduced from the considerably lower
buckling strain. For compression therefore, a smaller factor of safety is permissible
than for tension, since the strains in either case must remaiin with a margin of safety
below the true yield point.
If, in accordance with usual practice, a unit strain of 16,000 jxiunds per square
inch in tension for structural steel (55,000 to 65,000 ultimate strength) is used,the
. I .
same strain is permissible for a column with — = 0 in compression. For longer
r
columns, this strain has to be reduced by the formula in order to have the same factor
I
of safety for all ratios of — . The formula for the permissible unit strain
r
So = 16000-70 — (9)
r
which was adopted by the Committee on Steel Structures of the American Railway
Engineering and Maintenance of Way Association will allow a safety of about 3.
Thus far only the case of a column with ends free to rotate has been considered.
This case, however, does not occur in practice; the ends will always offer more or
less resistance to turning. All cases, however, can be treated similarly by assuming
the so-called buckling length; that is, the distance between points of contraflexure.
The assumption of the buckling length is mainly a matter of practical judgment,
since in practice no column will correspond either to theory or to experiments.
For compression members with hinged ends, the friction of the hinges should be
entirely neglected and even for compression members with riveted, and. therefore,
partly fi.xed ends, the free buckling length should not be assumed less than the distance
between connections on account of the secondar.v strains due to the elastic deformation
of the truss. These secondary strains, as will be seen from Appendix D, are the result
of bending moments which may partly or entirely counteract the fixity of the ends.
III. The Eccentrically Loaded Column.
Since in practice a column is always more or less eccentrically loaded, this case
must be considered in order to determine to what degree an eccentricity can affect the
buckling load of the ideal column. This will also show the increase of the fibre strains
when the load increases. Of course, only comparativel.y small eccentricities are conr
sidored ; such as may occur in compression members of trusses.
REPORT OF C. C. SCHNEIDER 191
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
In a column loaded eccentrically and parallel to the original axis, the deflection S
can be accurately determined; hence also the bending moments and the fibre strains,
provided the latter do not exceed the limit of proportionality. In order to get com-
parative figures, however, the following formula wiU be used for strains up to the yield
point :■ —
With the notations of fig. 8, the extreme fibre strain h can be expressed by the
well-known Navier formula
. = .„[l.^i^] (10)
n
! and the deflection by the formula
i '^'^-^ (11^
where ' e ' is either an initial eccentricity or an initial bend and
t„ the load per square inch.
This formula shows that however small the eccentricity ' e '
may be, the deflection S will increase to excessive proportions and
the column will fail absolutely when the denominator approaches
zero.
But7r'~-1=0
is nothing else than Euler's formula, and it is seen at once that for very small ' e,' 8,
and with it the fibre strain, becomes unsafe only in case the load approaches k^ of
Euler's formula.
Assuming that the column would fail when the maximum fibre strain reaches the
yield point (according to Tetmajer's tests of eccentrically loaded columns this assump-
tion is justified) ; that is, making I: of equation (10) equal to the yield point and
introducing the value of 8 from formula (11) into equation (10), then an expression
for the breaking load is found by solving for h^.
A few examples, however, will better illustrate the relation between load and strains
than the investigation of such a formula.
192
ROTAL COilitlSSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
For all examples, a column composed of 15-in. ['s, 33
lbs. will be assumed with r=5'62 in. and d — 15 in. and
x-!£=300,000,000.
I
r
Buckling
strain for axial
load.
Safe
buckling
strain,
16,000-70-'
r
Assum-
ed eccen-
tricity.
c
Assumed
load in lb. p.
Deflec-
tion.
5
e + S
Bending
strain
io.
Maximum
fibre
strain
Au.
In.
In.
.^E{jy
20,800
01
10
5 0
7,600
10,000
15, WO
]8,0OU
20,000
0 06
0 09
0-25
0 62
2-5
0 6
0 9
2-5
55
2 9
4 6
6 8
0 16
0 19
0 35
0-72
2 6
1-6
1-9
3-5
6 5
7 9
9 6
11 8
300
50O
1,200
3,000
9,500
2,900
4,500
12,500
27,300
14,200
22,700
33,500
7,900
10,.5U0
16,200
7,600
21,000
29,500
120
7,600
10,000
15,(K)0
17,700
10,.500
14,500
27,500
45,000
7.600
10,000
12,000
21,800
32,700
45,500
45,000-lCoL
r
0 1
10.400
20,100
30.000
0 03
0 07
018
013
017
0-28
800
2,000
10,700
20,800
,S2,000
80
32,200
10,400
10
10,400
20,000
28,000
0-29
0 74
1-47
1-29
1 74
247
3,200
8,200
16,500
13,200
28,200
44,500
5 0
10,400
16,500
1-45
2-7
6 45
7-7
15,800
30,000
25,800
46,500
45,000-16oi
r
10
13,200
20,C00
30,000
0 08
012
019
108
112
119
3,300
5,300
8,500
16,500
25,300
38,500
40
38,600
13,200
50
1.1,200
20,000
0 38
0 60
5-38
5-60
16,800
26,500
30.000
46,500
The loads underlined are approximately the buckling strains caused by excessive fibre strains.
Applying the foregoing to a straight cohimn apparently centrally loaded, it ia
seen at once that its safety cannot be judged by merely comparing the working load
(including impact, if any) with the buckling load, but that also the possibility of an
eccentricity must be considered, since under unfavourable conditions the maximum
fibre strains may become excessive under the working load. It is, however, not neces-
sary to keep these strains within the same limits as allowed for tension or direct
compression, but is sufficient if they remain within the yield point, since they are only
accidental.
In this respect, columns differ from beams or tension members, as for these load
and strain arc in direct proportion so that only the one condition has to be fulfilled to
keep the working strain, under the most unfavourable condition, within the yield point.
What should be considered as the most unfavourable condition as to eccentricity
is a matter of judgment. Bat from the foregoing examples, it is evident that for
columns of lengths such as used in practice there is sufticient safety against excessive
accidental fibre strains when using for static loads the permissible unit strain given
REPORT OF C. C. SCHNEIDER 193
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
by the formula 16,000 - 70 — , since the eccentricities which would cause excessive
r
fibre strains under the working load are evidently greater than those likely to occur
in good practice.
It must be remembered that the column with frictionless hinged ends is considered
here. In practice more or less fixity of the ends counteracts the influence of a possible
eccentricity; that is, the free buckling length will be reduced, unless the eccentricity
is excessive, or secondary strains are likely to occur.
In good practice, the latter cases should be carefully considered and, if found of
importance, special provision should be made in designing the column.
The writer has endeavoured to treat this subject merely from a practical stand-
point, applying theory only so far as necessary to explain some fundamental principles,
as the many elaborate theories advanced on this subject have been productive of more
or less confusion.
Considering that static computations are only approximations in any case, the
writer is of the opinion that our knowledge of the behaviour of compression members
under strain is sufficient to enable us to design columns with as much approach to
accuracy as any other member of a structure subject to bending. Additional tests on
large columns, corresponding to those used in modern practice, made under the super-
vision of experienced experimenters, would tend to further reduce the factor of ignor-
ance on this subject.
THE DESIGN OF LATTICING OF COLTOINS.
If a column is made up of several shapes or parts, they have to be connected in
such a manner that they will act as a unit. In an ideal column each part would take
its share of the load and no connection would be required. In practice, however, as
stated before, bending will occur before the buckling load is reached, causing shearing
strains which have to be transferred through the connections, as latticing, tie plates or
cover plates. These connection parts have, therefore, to perform the same function as
the web of a girder or the web system of a truss. It has also been previously explained
that, due to the variety of causes producing an initial eccentricity, it is not possible to
figure exactly the bending strains caused by a given load, not even at the time of
breaking. And, since the shearing strains depend on the bending strains, the same
uncertainty applies to these. The design of latticing, therefore, will remain largely a
matter of practical judgment like the design of other details, until by means of
numerous comparative tests, an empirical basis can be established.
There is, however, a rational method of dimensioning latticing analytically, which
agrees well with actual examples found in existing bridges of usual dimensions.
When a column is bending the maximum fibre strain will exceed the average
buckling strain, the difference being the bending strain. As a very short column
theoretically — =0) will fail when the average buckling strain has reached the yield
r
point, while a longer column whose maximum fibre strain has reached the yield point,
will deflect rapidly and fail under a small increase of the load, it is reasonable to
assume that a column will fail by buckling when the maximum fibre strain reaches
the yield point ; in other words, when the bending strain is equal to the difference
between the yield point and the buckling strain.
154— vol. i— 13
194 ROYAL COMMISSIOy ON COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Extremely long columns whicli may buckle without their fibre strain reaching the
yield point (see example given for a steel spring) are not used in structural work and
are, therefore, beyond the scope of this investigation.
- A^ii
I
In the straight line formula k^
■ c — , represented in the diagram of buckling strains (fig.
the bending strain is therefore,
9) by the ordinates
between the buckling curve k„ and the horizontal line through the yield point h^.
It is evident that every part of the column must be able to resist the bending
corresponding to the strain k^, as otherwise its full strength would not be developed.
Some lacing bars are in compression and others in tension. Those in compression
must be treated in the same way as the column; using the same unit strain k^, b\it
I
reduced according to their — . Those in tension become ineifective when they stretch,
r
as their elongation would permit a sudden increase in the deflection of the column and
have, therefore, to be proportioned for the yield point in tension. A column thus pro-
portioned has a uniform resistance against failure in all its parts, and if, instead of
the respective yield points, the same permissible unit strains are used in proportioning
column and latticing, a uniform safety is obtained for the coli^pin as a whole.
REPORT OF C. C. SCHNEIDER
195
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
In order to find the shear due to the bending, the shape of the axis of the deflected
column has to be assumed. As mentioned before, the elastic line of an axially loaded
column is a sinus curve. If, however,
the column has an initial eccentricity,
the elastic line will approach a circular
curve the more the greater the eccen-
tricity compared to the resulting deflec-
tion. We will, therefore, assume the
elastic line as a parabola which lies
between the two curves. (Fig. 10.)
The equation of the elastic line
with the notations taken from fig. 11
will then be
Circle
-faraho\a
Sinus Curve
X
y = x
48
and
dy _ 88
dx
The maximum bending strain we have
assumed as
^h = c — . which must be equal to =
r
Fig. 10.
Therefore we have
where R = Moment of Resistence =
Fig. 11. -—3 — , a = area, r = radius of gyration,
d = width of column.
c
-r
M max = i? c — =2c-^Z = P8
r d
Since the bending moment at any point X is If = Py, the shear at the same
point is
dM dy _ S PS
dx
S--
dx r
Substituting for P 8 the value given above, we get
ar
IT
-Sr = 16 xc
and for x =
S max = 8 c
(1)
(2)
Note. — ' r ' is the radius of gyration laterally and d the width of the member, also
laterally ; that is, in the plane of the lacing. The ' a ' is not the actual area used, but
is the area required for the lateral radius of gyration and the corresponding I. In
ordinary cases, however, the actual area can be used as ' a.'
154— vol. i— 13i
196
BOYAL COilillSSIOy OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
From equation (1), it follows that the shear
decreases toward the middle of the column. In
practice, however, the ends are always more or less
fixed so that the elastic line will take the shape
shown in fig 12 or fig. 13, and I will be the dis-
tance between points of contraflexure.
Fig. 12.
Fig. 13.
Since S max (according to equation (2) ) is entirely independent of the lengrth
of the column, and since it occurs at the point of contraflexure, it follows, that it may
occur at almost any point. The latticing should, therefore, be proportioned for the
maximum shear throughout the entire length of the column.
The following gives the proportioning of various systems of column latticing : —
(1) If the column consists of two segments (fig. 14) connected
rig. 1 4. by one system of single lacing bars, the shear S (under which we
will now always understand S max) has to be taken up by one bar.
The required area A of the bar is
A = -^r~ sec a and since S = S c -^r-
k a
A = S-^ ;-
ar
sec a
(3)
h being the yield point in tension for a tension bar, and h = ty - c —
for a compression bar; ^- being a constant for the same bar, the
size of the bar is a function of the properties of the column section
only, and does not depend on the column length or on any strains.
We can, therefore, in any given case, without knowing the column
load and the permissible unit strain, judge if the latticing be suf-
ficient for the section of the column. Thus we follow the accepted
practice of designing the connections to develop the full strength of tlie member.
Since the strains have only relative values, the permissible unit strains of 16,000
pounds for tension and (16,000-70 — ) for compression will be used hereafter instead
of the final values of h given above.
REPORT OF C. C. SCHXEIDER
197
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
Fig. 15.
Fig. 16.
If the system is double (fig. 15), or single and
on two sides of the column (fig. 16), the area
required in the bar is, of course, only half of that
given by formula (3).
To find the number of rivets N required to
connect the lattice bar, we have to remember that
the allowed unit for shear is assumed | of that in
tension. If A^ = aTea of rivet, and A the net area
required in the tension bar, we have
NA r , from which
N--
y IT
(4)
If the bars are connected by one rivet as iu fig. 16, this rivet transmits the
resultant of the two lattice strains. The strain on
Fig. 1 7. one bar is
If the bars are connected by one
rivet as in fig. 17, the rivet transmits
the resultant of the two lattice strains.
The strain on one bar for single latticing on both
sides is
sec a
S-
Fig. 18.
V
ig.g
^
i_€Si__^,,=,^^.^
For
TO
Example : —
Column section 2 - 1.5-in. ['s 50 lbs. (fig. IS)
We will assume that the area ' a ' required for
buckling in either direction be the same: a = 29-4
sq. in. and that the column shall have single lacing
of a = 30° on both sides.
:00044
k 16,000
since sec a = 1-16, we find by formula (3) the net area of one bar.
Q9.4 X 5-25
4 = ix8x00044^^ xll6 = 0195 sq. in.
16-2
1 bar 2§ X I = 0-56 square inch will be ample.
198
ROTAL COIIMISSIOS OX COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Number of J-in. rivets required = N = -
per bar use one for 2 bars as in Fig. 17.
2.— Co?um?!s with 8 Webs: (Fig. 19.)
Fig. 19.
0 195
0-6
= 0-43
Required area of column a = a' + 2a", where a' and a"
are the actual areas of the ribs reduced in proportion of the
total required area ' a ' to the actual area.
The longitudinal shear S' between two ribs for one panel
length L has to be taken up by the diagonal 1 - 2 of that
panel.
The longitudinal shear per lineal inch is found from the
transverse shear 8 by formula
. SM SM
where il = Static Moment of the outer rib about the column
axis = a"e, e being the distance of centre of gravity of the
rib from the column axis.
' t' of course decreases with S towards the point of
maximum deflection, and S' could be found by integration
for the length L. The error will, however, be small if we
assume ' t ' constant for one panel length. We then get
8' = tL =
--8c
ML
(.
ar' " dr
and the area of the bar required.
S' ^ c ML
since S = 8c -
)
A:
cosec a = 8 -,~ — ; — cosec o .
k k dr
(5)
(6)
or, J of this if there are two sides of latticing.
3. — Columns with U Webs:
Fig. 20.
Required area of coliunn a = 2 (a' + a")
(Fig. 20 shows a complete system of latticing for
this ease).
The longitudinal shear between the outer and
inner rib for one panel length L" is equal to
S"-^L":
8c-
M"L"
ar^ dr
where 2f" = Static Moment a"e".
Therefore, area of outer bar required
(7)
A.
S"
■ cosec a"
M"L"
cosec a"(8)
k " fc dr
or, J of this when there is latticing on two sides.
Correspondingly, we find for the latticing
between the inner ribs
%^ «>
-sr'=8c-
and the area of the inner bar required
A
S' , c M'U , ,,-,
coseca =8,j 3 cosec a . (10)
h h dr
where if' = Static Moment a"e"^c^e
REPORT OF C. C. fiCHNEIDEi:
199
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
LATTICING OF THE LOWER CHORD (L-9) OF THE QUEBEC BRIDGE.
The top latticing as sketched in Fig. 21 (the
circles indicating rivets) will first be considered.
The latticing angles between the outer and
inner web practically form a complete system, only
insignificant bending on the ribs being caused by
the centre lines of the diagonals not meeting at
the centre line of the ribs. We can apply formula
(8) on page 193, to find the area which would be
required in these angles, assuming hinges at
points H.
Let it be assumed that the actual area has been
found bv the formula 16,000 - 70 — ;- , where / is
r
taken parallel to the webs. This area must be
multiplied by
I
16,000-70-7-
r
16,000-70
I
in order to find the
area ' a ' required for buckling laterally. The
actual area is 781 square inches, r = 19-7 ins.,
Z = 684 ins., r' = 16 1
Therefore
a :
and a' = a"
_, 13,000 ^,„
'81 „ ^^^ = '■*6 sq. in.
13,600
= 186-5 sq. in.
e' = 5-8 in., e" = 27-2 in., d = 67-5 in., L = 73 in.
M" = a"e" = 5,070.
5070 X 73
/S" = 8x70x-
67-5 X 19-7
Area of one diagonal required
1 156,000
~ = 156,000 lbs.
A net =
A gross = A net
16,000
16,000
xl-4 = 3-40 sq. in.
= 3-97 in. gross.
13,700
Actually used:
1 angle 4 x 3 x | =2-5 sq. in. gross = 11 sq. in. net, as one leg of one angle is
cut off at the intersection at centre. Number of |-in. rivets required in one angle
^=4^ = 8
3 0-6
Actual number of rivets used = 2.
200 ROYAL COMMISSlOy OX COLLAPSE OF QVEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
Between the two inner ribs, there is no complete lattice system ; the intersecting
diagonals have to transmit the longitudinal shear S' of one panel length L, which
can be found by formula (9).
if' = -|-(e' + e")=6060
^' = 8x70-1^^^^ = 186,000 lbs.
67-5 X 19-7
Area of one diagonal required.
1 186,000
^^^^=T ^6:000- '^^•^ = '^-°^^'^-''^-
Actual effective area as above = 1-1 sq. in.
Besides there are secondary strains in the lattice angles owing to their continuity,,
the riveted end connections and the presence of the lateral struts.
The rivets at the inner rib have to transmit the shear
S'-S" = 30,000
Their number should be
,^14 30,000 1 ^ . . ,.
■" = -:r -XT — :r^r;^:r -;r^ = 2 rivets, J-m. diameter.
2 3 16,000 0-6 ®
Actually used, 2 rivets J-in. diameter.
In consideration of these results, the lattice diagonals and their connections are
decidedly too weak. It is evident that even under conservative loads certain parts
must have been overstrained.
The bottom lacing is somewhat better. The tie plate at the intersection of the
angles takes the longitudinal shear and is connected by 4 rivets to each rib.
REPORT OF C. C. SCHNEIDER 201
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
APPENDIX D.
SECONDAKY STEAESTS ESf TRUSSES OF QUEBEC BRmGE.
In figuring the primary or direct strains in a truss, the truss members are assumed
connected to each other by frictionless hinges. This condition is never realized; the
members being either riveted and, therefore, unable to turn at their ends, or hinged,
which, on account of friction, will permit only a partial turning.
When the truss deflects imder the load, the angles between members tend to
change. This change, however, cannot take place without bending the members at
their ends, which produces bending strains in addition to the direct strains.
These bending strains are called secondary strains. On account of the labour
involved in computing these strains, as they can only be determined after the trusses
have been designed for the primary strains, they are considered only in rare cases; but
provision for them is generally made in the adopted margin of safety.
It would be of no value to compute the secondary strains in every case, since they
amount to about the same percentage of the primary strains for trusses of the same
type and ordinary spans. They should, however, be carefully considered in unusual
designs and in members of unusual proportions.
The secondary strains will depend largely upon the methods of manufacture and
erection. In designing, the most unfavourable conditions should be considered; using,
however, for the combined strains higher permissible unit strains, which may be the
higher the greater the ratio of the secondary strain to the direct strain.
In order to get the maximum secondary strains for all members, different cases of
loading should be considered; but generally one case, for instance, that of a total load,
will suffice to show their possible magnitude. The secondary strains are the greater
the deeper the member, since a bending of the ends has less effect on a slender bar
than on a wider member.
As it would lead too far to give here a general theory of secondary strains, only
the method followed in computing these strains in the lower chord of the Quebec
bridge will be shown.
GENERAL THEORY.
The lower chord of the truss is continuous over the entire length of anchor and
cantilever arms; while all the other members are pin-connected. For the present, the
friction of the pins will be neglected; all the members connected to the lower chord
will, therefore, be considered as turning freely at their ends and receiving no secondary
strains under any load. If the lower chord sections, like the other members, were free
to turn at their ends, the original angles (^, ^j, 4 (see Fig. 1) between two adjacent
sections would change under a given load to ^^ + A^„ f ^ + A^., f j + A^. The change
202 nOTAL COilMISSIOX ox COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
A^j at panel point L^ is equal to the sum of the changes Aa^, Aa, Aa,, and Ao, of the
angles a^, a., Oj, a,.
The changes A o in any triangle of the truss, for instance, those in 2-5-8, are
given by the following three equations : —
£Aa,= (S,.,-S,.,) Ctg. a,+ (-S,.,-5^,) ctg. a, ]
E A a,= (S^,-S,J Ctg. a,+ (S,.,~S,J ctg. a, \ (1)
£ A a, = iS^, - S^,) ctg. a, + (S.., - S,J ctg. a, J
in which Sg_^, S,.^ and <S'j.j are the direct unit strains from the given load in the
members 8-5, 8-2 and 5-2 forming the triangle, and E = Modulus of Elasticity. The
change Aa, in the trapezoid 2-9-6-5 is obtained as follows : —
Let the trapezoid be divided into two triangles by a diagonal 5-9 and apply to
these triangles the above equations as follows : —
EAa,= (S,.,-S,J ctg. a, +{S,_,-S,J ctg. a,
EAa,= (S,.,-S,J ctg. a,,+ (S^,-S,J Ctg. a„
from which the imaginary strain in the assumed diagonal is found:
(S,^ - S,.,) ctg. a, + (S^ - S,.,) ctg. CL„ + S,^, ctg. a. + -S^ ctg. 0,0 - ^ ( A o, + A o.)
S^.-
ctg. a, + ctg. 0,0
(2)
wherein
E (Ao, + Aoj) =-£ (A C4,+ A a„ + Aa,. + A 0,5)
This enables use to determine A a^ from the triangle 2-5-9. In this way will be
determined all the changes A f which would take place under a given load, assuming
that the lower chord sections were free to turn at their ends. Owing to the continuity
of the chord, these changes in the angles ^ cannot take place without bending the chord.
In other words, the forces P at the ends of each bottom chord section are no longer
acting axially, but produce bending strains. (See fig. 2.)
/y^£'
REPORT OF C. C. f<CHNEIDER
203
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
These bending- strains can be obtained from the bending moments at the ends of
the member Jl/, = Pf^ and M^ = Pf,. Between the end moments M, and M^ and the
angles 7", and T^ which the end tangents form with the original axis, I, the following
relations exist:
T.=
6IE
(2il/, + M^
qTe
(3)
These formulae are obtained by integration of the differential equation of the elastic
line.
dx''~'lE'
Two adjacent lower chord members L^-L, and L^-L, (fig. 3) will now be con-
sidered. In order to have equilibrium, the two moments M^^ and iLf.^ at the panel
point L, must be equal = M„. The sum of the angles T^^ and 'I\^ must be equal to the
deformation A ^, of the angle ^j.
O:*
^ ^
F/^.3
T,^ + TJ^ = AC,
By substituting for T,^ and T^^ the values (3) it follows:—
i2M, + M,)l^., ^m, + M,)h
6 /.-. E
E
or, M,^ + 2M,(^ + ^\+M,^ =& E A^,
'i-: \ ■'1-2 ■'1-3 / '2-3
(4)
(5)
Each panel point of the lower chord furnishes one equation of this kind; as many-
equations as there are unknown bending moments are obtained, and these moments
can thus be determined. From the moments M the secondary strains in the member
are found by the usual formula
8 =
Me
(6)
■wherein e = distance of extreme fibre from the neutral axis.
On account of the continuity of the lower chord, its own weight produces bend-
ing moments at the panel points, which cause bending strains in addition to the other
secondary strains. If the lower chord section L^ - L^ were free to turn, it would, under
204
ROYAL COilillSSIOy 0-V COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
its own -sreight IF,.,, deflect like a uiiifonnly loaded beam on two supports; the bending
moment at the centre would be
M =
W,-. d,..
(7)
/y^^
and the angles ygj.j which the end tangents of the elastic line form with the original
axis
A-
(8)
U E 1
The angle between two adjacent lower chord sections L^-L^ and L.-L^ would
increase by the amount
A^, = /?,., + ^,.3_ _. _ (9)
Owing the the continuity of the chord, this increase cannot take place; therefore,
bending moments will occur at each panel point. These bending moments have to
correspond to equations (5) in which the values (9) have to be substituted for A ^.
For the computation of the secondary strains the following cases of loading have
been considered: —
1. Full dead load.
2. A load of 3,000 lbs. per lin. ft. on one truss of the cantilever arm and suspended
span.
3. A load of 3,000 lbs. per lin. ft. on one truss of the anchor arm.
4. Own weight of lower chord.
The corresponding strains are given in the attached table, together with the
greatest combined strains.
Under the following conditions, the secondary strains in the lower chord from
dead load could practically be eliminated in the finished structure: —
1. If during erection the ends of the lower chord members were able to turn
freely about the joints.
2. If after the full dead load is on the bridge, the joints would come to uniform
bearing.
Both these conditions can only be partly fulfilled. Even if the lower chords
were pin-connected, and the splices were not riveted up until completion of erection,
friction would partly prevent turning; and it is almost an impossibility for the shop
to work so accurately as to fulfil the second cendition, especially for a polj-gonal chord
like that of the Quebec bridge.
If, for instance, a butt-joint has an even bearing at the beginning of the erection,
the strains would be uniformly distributed over the entire section at that time, but
as soon as deformation commences, the strains will be transmitted eccentrically,
causing secondarj* strains which may be as high as if there were no joint at all.
As it is impossible to determine the exact condition under wliich the joints of the
lower chords come to an even bearing, it is equally impossible to ascert^iin what
percentage of the computed secondary strains woulil come on any one of the chord
members.
REPORT OF C. C. SCHXEIDER 205
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 154
As the maximum bending moments occur at the panel points, the additional
section provided for buckling may help to resist the secondary strains at the panel
points where no buckling will take place.
No matter for what condition of loading the length of the members of the trusses
may be adjusted to give the joints of the lower chord an even bearing, secondary
strains will occur, and it is reasonable to assume that at least those produced by the
live load will occur in any case. These range from 3 to 20 per cent of the total direct
strains.
The total secondary strains may, therefore, range from the values S^ in the
table to the values 8^ + 8^ + S^, since S^ (from live load of anchor arm) is always of
opposite sign to S^.
The greatest secondary strain occurs in member L, - L. of the anchor arm, where
it is between 4,600 and 22,400 lbs. per square inch.
The secondary strains in the lower chord are from 18 to 95 per cent of the cor-
responding direct strains;' this percentage is smallest at the ends of cantilever and
anchor arms, and increases towards the pier.
In figuring the secondary strains, the pins have been assumed frictionless. A
calculation has shown that the strains caused in the lower chord by friction of the pins
are negligible; being less than 1 per cent of the secondary strains where the latter
reach the maximum.
The effect of friction of the pins is considerably greater on the eyebars of the
upper chord. Approximate computations show that the secondary strains in the eye-
bars for assumed rigid end connections, would be from 30 to 40 per cent of the direct
strains. Since for a coefficient of friction of 0-15, the strains caused by this assumed
friction amount to about the same as for rigid end connections, it follows that the ends
are prevented from turning under any load and the secondary strains can, therefore,
amount to the above given percentages of the direct strain.
It is probable, however, that during erection as well as afterwards, through
vibrations from moving loads, the eyebars gradually turn on the pins, thus eliminat-
ing partly the secondary strains from the dead load.
The most favourable condition which could be assumed is, that the secondary
strains are produced by the live load only. The live load strains in the upper chord
bars are from 25 to 30 -per cent of the total strains; hence, if the secondary strains
are 40 per cent of the primary strains produced by the live load, they will amount to
at least from 10 to 12 per cent of the total direct strains.
203
vis
ROYAL COMMISSIOy Oy COLLAPSE OF QUEBEC BRIDGE
7-8 EDWARD VII., A. 1908
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