Full text of "The Navy : a few causes of its decline with suggestions for its revival"

See other formats

!CO

454

N38

THE NAYY.

A FEW CAUSES OF

ITS DECLINE

WITH SUGGESTIONS

FOR ITS REVIVAL.

PKEFACE.

"Time, like an ever rolling stream,

Bears all its sons away;
They fly forgotten, as a dream

Dies at the opening day."

IN no page of our Nation's history do we read of so many changes, as have-
taken place during the last half century — The Stage Coach and Eoad Wag-
gon are superseded by the locomotive, outstripped by speed. No longer are
our Fleets which protect our sea-girt Isle, composed of the unsightly dull
sailing craft which were ever dependent upon the wind for assistance, but
they are composed of such Steam Ships as our Nation might well be proud
of, either in numbers, power, speed, or armament, bidding as it were
defiance to the elements, they prosecute their voyage, whether in a calm or
in the storm, either for the protection of our highly favoured land, or the
extension of commerce. By these means, we have thank God, opened a
highway to all parts of the Navigable Globe, thrown down idolatry and
superstition, extended civilization, and truth is winning its way to the
utmost boundaries of our earth. So far we say all is well, and what nation
could do more ? At this point we might rest satisfied, if the " Lion had
been brought to lay down with the Lamb," as yet, it is not so, it therefore
behoves us as a Nation to be at all times prepared for coming events ; and
while we, Jja^ve the material for constituting a Navy, let us consider the
is- <j/ personaT. i^Xtearning during the past fifty years has" made rapid strides, and
thank God, the " British Seaman" has proved that he has a mind capable
of expansion, that he is endowed with rational and intellectual senses fitted
for every purpose, and worthy of cultivation, even as his fellow creatures
of a different profession ; consequently the British Seaman does think and act
for himself, and many have acted wisely, they have improved the talent
given them, and carried it to the best market, this has decimated our Navy
and at times thrown us into National difficulties, over which the heads of
our Nation, and the thinking of our Government have deeply lamented,
and caused many to propose schemes, and recommend such measures as
might in their estimation lead to a permanent Navy, the entire safety of our
highly favoured Isle and widely extended Colonies. Time has not yet
wrought this much desired change, the thinking part of our hardy Tars
find no charm in the Eoyal Navy, and the Defaulter's Books could a tale
unfold of the characters that have found their way into the Navy, disgraced
the service, ruined good men, set discipline at defiance, and spread discon-
tent and calumny over the four quarters of our Globe, this is one of the
evils of the present day ; another, much more distressing to the lover of his
country, is, that merit does not meet its reward in the Navy, necessity
therefore compels the meritorious to seek employment in the Merchant

IV.

Service, or in Foreign Navies, or to bind himself to the Service for ever;
the latter is not generally experienced till age has put it past the power of"
the sufferer to seek a change : hence we see the Veterans of our Navy
dragging out an existence in the ships laid up at our Home Ports, or Pen-
sioned off upon so small a pittance, that the most menial situation is eagerly
sought for to help supply nature's demands. The rising generation with
the advantage of education, have a wide field open to them, and will avail
themselves of the opportunity in order to receive a just recompence for
their services. — If the Navy was what it might be, and what we trust
shortly to see it, viz., a " HOME," with strict discipline justly administered,.
a fair remuneration for service, and a due reward for merit, selecting such
only as are fit to Command, it would become popular, and we might prove
to a demonstration, that " England 's best Bulwarks are her Wooden Walls"
and that the safety of our Nation is in good keeping, when our " Wooden
Walls" are not lacking " Hearts of OaJc" but have always a sufficient
number of British Heroes ready for every emergency that our Nation
demands. Whatever affects the Warrant Officers of the Navy must affect
the whole Navy, if they are of inferior ability, the Crown must suffer, the
Executive branch must suffer, and the Crew lack knowledge. If they are
not cared for as they should be, the situation is despised instead of sought
for, and this is at last acknowledged by nearly every officer in the Navy,
that the treatment towards this class of Officers during the last thirty years,
has been the principal cause of the declension of the Navy. Many have
been the appeals to the successive Boards of Admiralty for their improve-
ment, but alas in vain. — In the month of June, 1858, SIR JAMES D. II.
ELPHINSTONE, BART., M. P., for the Borough of Portsmouth, (with the
consent of SIR JOHN PACKINGTON, First Lord of the Admiralty,) presented
a Memorial to the House of Commons, Praying for a Restoration of their
Widows' Pensions, of which they had. been deprived in July, ISoO. — While
this was under consideration, Her Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria
(at the suggestion of the Government) seeing the necessity of a permanent
Navy, was pleased to appoint a Royal Commission, to enquire into the most
effectual means of establishing the same$this led to the accompanying
correspondence. The few facts and suggestions contained in this work, are
compiled with a view that each and all may read and judge for themselves,.
and though the class have long and almost silently borne every burden,
they have been Jaithful servants of the Crown, this is generally acknowledged
by all who have wrote on " Manning the Navy," or have had an opportu-
nity of expressing their sentiments before the Royal Commission, and it is
pleasing to know that on no branch of the Naval Service, was there ever
higher encomiums passed than on the Gunners, Boatswains and Carpenters.
Praying that they may meet their reward, and that the British Royal Navy
may be such as every true hearted Briton might be proud of. And then
the Compiler will be well satisfied for past labours.

Cambridge Terrace* Lake Lane, Portsea,.

13th November, 1858.
(Private.)

MY LORD,

I am deputed by my Brother Officers, the Gunners,.
Boatswains and Carpenters of the Royal Navy, to address you on behalf
of the Class, praying that I might be permitted to lay before you (either
in a Memorial or Pamphlet) as Chairman of the Royal Commission a
statement of the disadvantages under which they labour, with a view to
improve their condition, and for the benefit of the Navy in general: trus-
ting your Lordship will not deem me unworthy, but be pleased to grant
my request, which I trust will lead to the means of raising the moral
standard of British Seamen. "Waiting your Lordship's reply,

I am, my Lord,
Tour Lordship's most obedient humble Servant,

THOMAS H. HOWELS, Gunner, Royal Navy.

To Admiral the Right Honorable the Earl of Hardwicke,

Chairman of the Royal Commission on Manning the Navy,

28, Abingdon Street, Westminster.

P.S. — I should also consider it a privilege if permitted to address a "Work
on Manning the Navy, to your Lordship. Be pleased to mention
whether it should be a Memorial or Pamphlet.

28, Abingdon, Street, Westminster, S. W.,

24th November. 1858.
SIR,

I am directed by the Roy alK^ommissi oners for Manning
the Navy, to acknowledge the receipt of your letter dated the 13th inst.,
-addressed to the Earl of Hardwicke, stating that you had been deputed by
your brother Officers, the Gunners, Boatswains & Carpenters of the Royal
Navy, to lay before the Commission a statement of the disadvantages un-
der which they labour, with a view to improve their condition and for the
benefit of the Navy in general, and I am directed in reply to state, that
auy statement you may forward, either in the form of a Memorial or
Pamphlet, shall receive the attentive consideration of the Commission.

I am, Sir,
Your obedient Servant,

H. C. ROTHERY, Secretary.
J/r. TJtomas H. Howels, Gunner, K. N.

vr.

25iA November, 1858.
SIB,

We humbly beg leave to request that you will be
pleased to lay before the Royal Commission, the enclosed Memorial from
the Warrant Officers of the Royal Navy.

We are, Sir^
Your most obedient humble Servants,

THE DEPUTATION.
THOMAS HOWELS, Gunner, R. N.,

In behalf of the Deputation.
Henry C. Rothery, Esq ,

Secretary to the Royal Commission on Manning the Navy,
28, Abingolon Street,. Westminster.

To Admiral the Right Hon. the EARL OF HARDWICKE, Chairman of the
Royal Commission on Manning the Navy.

WE, the undersigned, being deputed by our brother officers the Gun-
ners, Boatswains, and Carpenters of the Royal Navy, do avail ourselves
of the opportunity of laying before your Lordship the grievances of this
("lass of Officers, praying the consideration of the Royal Commission in
order to improve their condition and that of the Navy in general.

Position or Rank. — Loss of. — Present Position.

For many years the position or rank of Warrant Officers was such as to
command respect, and enable them at all times to perform their duties
without obstruction by the Junior Officers. The loss of their Position
(formerly next Masters, then next Seeond Masters, and lastly, in 1844,
placed at the bottom of the list, and for which no reason was ever yet-
assigned,) is a sore grievance to the Class and a great loss to the Service.
Their present position prevents them from doing their duty with alacrity
and despatch, by the frequent interference of young and inexperienced
officprs, and a want of respect from petty officers and seamen, sometimes
entailing loss of stores and endangering life; and the treatment of the
class by the junior officers is a hindrance to the best petty officers accep-
ting the warrant.

Size of Ships. — Increased Duties.

The increased size of our ships, and the scarcity of Mates and Mid-
shipmen, have entailed many additional duties on the Gunners, such as
the charge of decks, mainyard, rigging, &c., thereby occupying the time
that should be devoted to their more responsible duties, viz., the care of
stores and their accounts.

Have no relative Rank in the Army. — Warrant Officers as Quarter-deck

Officers.

Since the Warrant Officers were deprived of position, they have lost
their relative rank in the army, and with it the emoluments, such as batta
money, camp money, &c., when doing duty (land service) with the army,
there being no relative position assigned them, and yet during the late
war with Russia, additional Warrant Officers were placed in charge of Gun--

vu.

Boats and Mortar Boats, and also as quarter-deck Officers, which duties
were performed with entire satisfaction to Captains and Commanders.

Lose of Prize Money and Check Money.

Loss of position was also a loss of "prize money;" Warrant Officers
were formerly in the third class, now in the fourth class, for distribution
of seizures, &c.; also a loss of "check money," formerly two shillings
per day, now only eighteenpence, when employed out of their own ship.

Pay.

The pay of Warrant Officers has not increased in proportion with other
grades of the service (vide the accompanying Table), nor in proportion
to the increased responsibility, the amount of Stores on charge being more
than doubled within the past twenty years, particularly in the Gunners'
department.

No Increase for Increased Service.

Warrant Officers have no progressive increase of pay for increased ser-
vices ; the officer just placed in the first class receives the same amount
of pay as the one who has served twenty years in the first class.

Deduced Pay.

Warrant Officers are the only class in the service who serve on reduced
pay ; this alludes to Harbour and Dockyard duties.

Boatswain of Dockyard.

The pay of the Boatswain of a Dockyard has been reduced £50 per
annum, though the size of the yards has been considerably increased,
and entailed much additional labour.

Master Rigger.

The master rigger has to perform the additional duty of Boatswain of
the "sheers'* without increase of pay. Formerly these were separate
appointments.

Widows' Pensions, Abolition of, in 1830. — Increase to others.

Until the year 1830 the Widows of Gunners, Boatswains, and Carpen-
ters were allowed an Annuity; in that year it was abolished in prospec-
tive, and this is felt to be the most grevious burden that the Class have to
endure, and one of the primary objections to the best petty officers ac-
cepting warrants. Since that date the widows' pensions of every other
grade have been increased; the Warrant Officers, therefore, humbly pray
that an Annuity be granted their Widows in proportion to their worth to
the country.

Retirement^ Uncertainty of. — Loss of former Time.

No length of servitude or age entitles a Warrant Officer to retirement,
so long as a "medical board" pronounces him fit to serve; and then,
when unfit for further service, so uncertain is the scale of superannuation
that no officer is certain of the amount he will receive, and there is no
remuneration for his former service as seaman and petty officer.

Vlll.

Wounds or Hurts.

^Warrant Officers deceiving wounds or hurts, and still fit to servo, were
formerly allowed a pension according to the nature of the injury. This
is nearly wholly abolished, nor is any additional sum granted for the
same when superannuated ; and should the hurt be of such a nature as
to prevent them going to sea, they are placed on the " harbour duty"
list, with reduced pay and reduced scale for retirement (two years' harbour
service equal to one year at sea), and all future promotion stopped : so
if in the second or third class, there they must remain, no matter what
length of service, exemplary character, or how the hurt was received.
This is an endurance which none can fully know but the sufferer.

No Rewards for War Service.

The senior Warrant Officers have no rewards for "war service," either
by promotion or otherwise.

Corporal Punishment.

The Boatswains of the Royal Navy pray that they be exempted from
inflicting "corporal punishment," such being degrading to the character
of an officer*

DEPUTATION.

NAME.

Profession.

Snip.

Port.

Thomas Howels

Gunner

Excellent

Portsmouth.

William Andrews

Victory

Richard Spry

Cambridge

Devonport.

George Lumb

Fisgard

Woolwich.

James Pibworth

WeUesley

Chatham.

James Cooper

St. Vincent

Portsmouth.

John T. Walker

•»

Royal William -

Devonport.

James Garden

Boatswain -

Dockyard

Portsmouth.

William Smith

»»

Milford.

George Webber

St. Vincent

Portsmouth.

John Dennison

»>

William Nichols

Royal William

Devonport.

John Grigg

James Tiffin

Fisgard

Woolwich.

Stephen Moore

Carpenter -

St. Vincent

Portsmouth.

John Jones

Victory

Edward Strickland -

St. Vincent

Josiah V. Earl
William Cornish

M
»

Impregnable
Royal William -

Devonport.
•»

Jonathan May

Fisgard

Woolwich.

Robert Hall

i»

November, 1858.

IX.

Royal Commission for Manning the Navy,.
28, Abingdon Street, S. W.,

3rd December, 1858.
SIR,

I beg to send you herewith Twenty-five Copies of your
Memorial to the Royal Commission, for the use of yourself and the other
Memoralists.

I am, Sir,
Your obedient Servant,

H. C. ROTHERY, Secretary.
Mr. Thomas .Howels,
Gunner y H. M. S. Excellent, Portsmouth.

Royal Commission for Manning the Navy,
28, Abingdon Street, S. W.,

±th December, 1858.
SIR,

I am directed by the Royal Commissioners for Manning
the Navy, to request that you will order THOMAS HOWELS, Gunner, on
board II. M. S. Excellent, to attend here, on Wednesday next the 8th
instant, at 1-1 o'clock in the forenoon, for the purpose of giving Evidence
on the subject of the inquiry which has been referred to them.

I am, Sir,
Your most obedient Servant,

H. C. ROTHERY, Secretary..

To the Commanding Officer of H. M. S. Excellent,
Portsmouth.

Mr. THOMAS HOWEL& examined :—

3034. (Chairman.) What rank do you hold in Her Majesty's navy ? —
•A gunner of the first class.

3035. Were you examined before the committee which sat in 1852 ? — No.

3036. You are the writer of a certain paper which was addressed to me,
and it is undersigned by a certain number of boatswains, gunners, and
•carpenters, in Her Majesty's Navy? — Yes.

3037. You are aware, no doubt, that the object of this Commission is to
facilitate by any means, without resorting to coeicive measures, the man-
ning of the royal navy in the event of necessity? — Yes.

3038. And as a means to an end, the Commissioners are very ready to
hear any representations that you may have to make, tending to render the
service more popular with the seamen of the country. Will you have the
kindness to state Avhat you consider to be the present objections that are
made by seamen, and by those persons who rise from the rank of seamen
to that of warrant officers in the service. The first point in your letter was
the loss of your former position in the service? — Yes.

3039. In what year was it that you were reduced from the rank you held
in the service? — Since I have been in the service, it was in 1844. That
was the occasion which caine most under my notice, and by which I have
been a sufferer, as I was a warrant officer at that date.

3040. You are now placed under a cadet ? — Yes.

3041. Formerly you ranked next to second masters ? — At that date.

3042. Then your rank before was above the midshipmen? — Yes.

3043. Was if above the mates ? — Not at that date; but as far back as
1825, I think it was when the former alteration took place.

3044. In the event of a ship under any circumstances losing her officers
now above the rank of a cadet, the cadet would take command of the ship
before the boatswain, the gunner, or the carpenter ? — That is the case.

3045. The boatswain and the gunner being experienced seamen and the
cadet being a child ? — Yes.

3046. (" &ir J. Elphinstone.) You were in the Black Sea gunner of the
" Sanspareil? ' — Yes.

3047. The "Tiger" was lost in the Black Sea?— Yes.

3048. What effect had the loss of rank upon the gunner of the "Tiger"
when he was taken prisoner ? — He was not treated as an officer ; he did not
receive similar allowances to an officer, as he would have in his former
position.

3049. He ranked with the petty officers? — The position that he held at
the bottom of the list of officers was so near approaching that of petty
officers that there was scarcely any distinction made ; there being no rela-
tive rank in the army for warrant officers ; no position assigned by which
they could receive any allowance as a prisoner of war, or any scale of diet.

3050. Consequently he suffered very considerable hardship from the loss
of rank upon that occasion? — Yes, sometimes having to take his food at
the servant's table.

3051. (Mr. Green.} Was he treated as a prisoner, like a common sai-
lor ? — Yes, in most cases.

3052. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) I suppose there is very little difference
betAveen the treatment of petty officers and of fore-mast men ? — It is mostly
the same.

3053. In the event of an officer being sick is not the gunner the officer
who is always selected to keep the quarter-deck watch ? — Always, whether
in sickness or not, it invariably falls to his lot to keep that watch.

3054. In that case he commands the mate on the forecastle, and the mid^-
shipmen, and he takes the position of a commissioned officer for the time
being ? — Yes.

3055. (Chairman.) The next point in your statement is that the duties
are very much increased by the size of our ships, arid by the scarcity of
mates and midshipmen. Will you have the goodness to state in what way
the duties are increased.9 — As a gunner, my lord, I can speak practically.
The size of our ships and the change in the armament, within the last 20
years have more than doubled the amount of stores, and it requires double
care, diligence, and attention to keep all the internal equipments, and ar-
rangements ready for all purposes devolving on the Government. The
mates and midshipmen, and formerly the mates in particular, were older
servants, that is to say, they had been longer at sea, and they had had
more experience, and they were frequently, indeed, almost always in charge
of decks. Since the peace the mate's duty has been invariably placed on
the gunner, thereby occupying his time, which should be given to that par-
ticular duty, namely constant care and attention to his stores and accounts.

3056. Do you mean to say that the gunner now does the duty of the
mate of the main deck, or the mate of the lower deck ?— Yes, at the pre-
sent time. In some of our three-deck ships the gunner has charge of the
main or middle deck, in nearly every ship in the service the gunner has
charge of the main or middle deck.

3057. Is there any other point that you wish to mention? — Yes, the
main yard and main rigging. This is a question I can answer to from
practice. It is the gunner's mate's duty to examine, repair, and fit all the
gear belonging to the main-yard and main-rigging. It is handed down as
a rule that it becomes the gunner's duty, and they are occupied with this
when they should be employed on different duties, particularly the stores,
whereas the boatswain has the sole charge of the main-yard and rigging, and
he has a chief boatswain's mate, a passed man, principally to look after the
main-yard and the main-mast, and yet this duty has generally to be execu-
ted, or the principal responsibility of it rests upon the gunner for particular
care and attention to the main-yard and the main-rigging.

3058. Has not the main-yard and the main-rigging, as far as the rigging
on the yard and over the mast is concerned, been the charge of the gunner
from time immemorial ? — No, it rests principally with the captains or com-
manders of ships, some enforce it as a rule, others leave it as a choice to
the gunner, while some never trouble themselves about it. There is
nothing in the printed instructions that says that the gunner shall do it,
but we are bound to obey every order that we receive, and as junior officers,
we feel that we should commit a breach of discipline if we did not obey the
commands of our superior officers.

3059 You are not aware that the main-yard and the main-rigging have
always been the charge of the gunner ? — No.

3060. Are the gunners in the service at the present time all able to take
charge of the main-yard and of the main-rigging ? — I should think that no
giiuner in the service at this day is incompetent to perform either that duty

t>r ike duty of the boatswain, they are passed in seamanship for that pur^
pose; they pass two examinations, one for gunner, and another for seaman-
ship prior to getting the warrant.

3061. The boatswain has charge of all the stores in reference to the
rigging of the mainmast and the main-yard ? — Yes.

3062. (Sir J. ElphinstonQ.) The change of system is not uniform with
regard to taking charge of the main-yard, for, as I am informed, in some
ships the gunner is relieved from the charge of the main-yard, but the
system is not uniform? — Xo; in the portion of the printed instructions or
Queen's regulations, where the different duties are allotted, there is no such
duty assigned the gunner.

30G3. But it is the practice of the service? — Yes.

3064. Some ships have relieved the gunners from that practice? — Yes.

3065. Have not the improvements in gunnery in the last 20 years, and
the difference in the ordnance with which the ships are armed, entailed much
heavier and more onerous duties on the gunners? — Yes, the introduction of
shell into the sendee has been one immense alteration, both as regards ad-
ditional duty, and the amount of stores. The stores, now on charge, in a
line-of-battle ship, are more than double in weight, and the abstract state-
ment of the gunner that used to occupy 25 pages now numbers 160.

3066. Can you state how many tons of stores you had under your charge
in the " Sanspareil" ? — From 600 to 900 tons.

3067. Will you state the nature of these stores? — Everything in the
shape of munitions of war, guns, small arms, shot, shell, powder, rockets,
iuses, blue lights, revolvers of a new construction, and everything that con-
stitutes the seamen's arms> gun breechings, and tackles, field ordnance,
boats guns, &c.

3068. You consider that having such a large and onerous charge as thatj
it is impossible for you> consistently with the discharge of your other duties,
to undertake the charge of the mainmast and mainyard, as was formerly the
case ? — While I am. employed on the duties of the mainyard and main rig-
ging and the decks, I must omit those more responsible duties, but if any-
thing should be wrong I must bear all the censure and the blame, and if
any deficiencies of stores must pay for them.

3069. You think that it is quite as much as one man can reasonably be
called upon to perform, to have charge of the ordnance and the stores of a
ship of that description ? — I do, and in smaller ships equally so, as he would
have all the Drill, and more watches to keep.

3070. (Chairman.} Since you have been deprived of the rank which you
held formerly you have also been deprived in consequence of that of certain
emoluments, have you not ? — Yes.

3071. Will you state what those emoluments are, or might be, at any
time ? — When doing duty (land service) with the army, in our former posi-
tion, we ranked with a lieutenant, and also received all the emoluments,
camp money, and batta money, and so on, with them. Now we have no
relative rank, and no emoluments are given, in consequence of having no
relative position. This is a recent case of my own when I was doing duty
on shore in the Crimea. When I did the same in China before, I received
it, then ranking with the ensign or lieutenant, I forget which ; but I received
batta money 6s. a day, the same as an ensign or a lieutenant in the army;

"but when I was doing duty in the Crimea there was no such allowance made,
'to the warrant officers either in the trenches or in the camp, and the mid-
shipmen were getting, I think, £15 a quarter as camp money, but the war-
rant officer could be paid nothing, because they could find no rank by which
to give it to him.

3072. At the same time were commands entrusted to you in preference
to the midshipmen ? — I had for nearly seven months the sole charge of
thousands of tons of stores in Balaclava, of every description, and my suc-
cessor in charge was also a gunner.

3073. Were there any officers of your rank commanding gun-boats or
mortar-boats? — Yes. I am not aware that any mortar-boats were in the
•command of anybody else but warrant officers ; the gun-boats were in com-
mand of lieutenants generally.

3074. All the mortar-boats were in command of warrant officers ? — Yes.

3075. Were there also instances of warrant officers pei forming the duties
of quarter-deck officers? — Yes, various instances, both in the Black Sea
and in the Baltic.

3076. Does any instance occur to your mind, which you can adduce in
Corroboration of your statement ? — There was the " Miranda/' which
Captain Lyons commanded, and he had warrant officers as quarter-deck
officers. I cannot particularise the ships, but I am confident that there
were more than 30 ships that had warrant officers as quarter-deck officers.

3077. f*S7r J. Elphinstone.) When you were in the " Sanspareil," at
Balaclava, were not several of your ship's company detached in batteries
ashore ? — Yes.

3078. In addition to the charge of stores which you had under your
care, were you called upon to keep watch on the quarter-deck ? — Yes, I
and the boatswain kept the watches alternately ; there were no lieutenants
in the ship, they were on shore.

3079. The stores that were under your charge were on shore at Bala-
clava ? — Yes

3080. In addition to the stores on board the ship ? — Yes.

3081. You were once or twice, were you not, obliged to clear for action.2
-—Several times.

3082. You had the entire charge both of the ship's armament on board,
and the stores on shore? — Yes.

3083. For which you received no batta or remuneration whatever ? —
None, until the latter part of the time, when an order was given for all those
who were doing duty on shore to receive check money.

3084. What did that amount toF — Is. 6d. a day ior the warrant officer.

3085 While the gunner or the boatswain was doing duty as quarter-
deck officer in charge of the ship, did they find any difficulty in procuring
obedience from the midshipman who was their senior officer? — Yes, very
great.

3086. That would lead to very great inconvenience to the public service
would it not? — Most assuredly.

3087. Placed in the position in which you now are compared with that
which you formerly held, how are you dealt with in reference to prize
money and check money? — Formerly we were in the third class for distri-
bution of seizures, but now that we are in the fourtk,class there are some

who then shared with us, who now share above us, and those who shared!
belotf, now share with us, in consequence of the change in the rank.

3088. Has any alteration been made in your pay, in consequence of the
change in the rank? — Not that I am aware of in that part of it; there was
a change in the pay, which took place in the year 1836, when the warrant
officers were put into three classes instead of six rates, by which the whole
may be said to be slightly improved, but the first rate officers in prospective
lost £10 a year, all other grades were increased. When a first-class gun-
ner, or a first-rate gunner, as he was called at that time, was receiving 5s.
7d. a day, the lieutenant was getting 6s. 6d. The lieutenant's pay has
been increased to 10s , and the first-rate warrant officer, or first-class war-
rant officer, increased Is., that is, making theirs 6s. 7d. the sea pay, 5s.
7d. the harbour pay,

8089. (Chairman.) You state in your letter as a grievance, that a war-
rant officer entered as a first-class warrant officer, and serving for a long
period of time, as a first-class warrant officer, receives no increase of pay ?
— None.

3090. But would a lieutenant, a captain, or any other officer in the ser-
vice, being first class, receive an increase of pay for greater length of ser-
vice?— From the lieutenant downwards there is the master, surgeon, the
paymaster, engineer, and others, they all receive an increase according to
the length of time that they serve, as will be shown by the table accom-
panying the letter, viz.

Lieutenant, under 7 years, 10s. per day.

„ above „ Us. ,,

Master of 6 years 10s. „

„ of 20 „ 18s. „

Surgeon, under 6 years, 10s. per day.

of 20 „ 18s.

Paymasters according to seniority.

Engineers, under 6 years 10s. per day.
„ above 30 „ 18s. ,,

3091. Then the lieutenant's pay was increased from 6s. 6d. to 10s.,
while the warrant officers pay was increased from 5s. 7d. to 6s. 7d.? — Yes.

3092. The next point in your letter was, "Reduced pay," what do you
mean by that? — It is a term that is given to harbour pay.

3093. Would not harbour pay, in some measure, correspond with the
half-pay of commissioned officers ? — Yes, if all those were unfit to serve,
or permitted to seek other employments; but while the warrant officer is
on the sea service list, and is compelled to keep a stock of clothes ready
fer sea, to do the duties of the harbour, and keep watch, the dockyard du-
ties, or whatever it may be, it is not so, for no other officer in the service
is compelled to serve; take any ship in commission, and it will be found
that from the captain to the boy, all have sea-pay, and the scale for super-
annuation is for sea-time, but they have reduced the warrant officer in pay,
and reduced him in the scale for superannuation, two years in harbour
equal to one at sea, if the conduct is good, or three for one otherwise.

3094. I understand the difference to be this, that whereas the commis-
sioned officer is either actively employed or released altogether, the
warrant officer is either employed at sea or actively employed in harbour ?
—Yes.

3095. When did the reduction in the pay of the boatswain in the dock-
yard take place? — On the establishment of the lieutenants of police in the
dockyards. In 1834 in prospective, the master riggers and boatswains
then serving continued to receive £250. while serring, but their successors
came upon a reduced^ale.

8096. On what class was the reduction made? — I cannot speak defi-
nitely, but it may be inferred that the lieutenant of police made an
application to the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty for an increase
of' pay because the juni'or officer was getting more pay than he was. They
did not increase the pay of the lieutenant of police at that time, but they
allowed the boatswains, who were then employed, to receive the pay which,
they had been accustomed to receive, and they reduced the pay of their
successors. And subsequently increased the lieutenant of police, to £250
per annum, although it is not mentioned in the form at the time it was
printed, it should have been, that the boatswain and master riggers were
both curtailed £50 per annum.

3097. What is the pay of a boatswain in Portsmouth dockyard ?— f 200.

3098. What is the pay of a lieutenant in Her Maj.esty's navy in com-
mission?— £180 5s.

3099. Then the boatswain's pay in a dockyard is higher than that of a
lieutenant in the navy now? — Yes, but the lieutenant has not the amount
of responsibility, and boatswain of a yard is the height of a seaman's pro-
fession, gained by many years experience.

3100. The commissioners have been informed that one of the great
grievances complained of by the warrant officer is the loss of a pension
to his widow? — Yes, that is the most sore grievance of the present day,
and has been for many years.

3101. How many years is it since that pension was abolished? —
Twenty-eight years last June.

3102. Are you aware of the causes of its abolition? — I have heard
several reasons assigned.

3103. Will you state the most prominent reasons ? — That improper use
had been made of it by the warrant officers marrying young women who
were not the most chaste characters in the world.

3104. Did you ever hear it asserted that the warrant officers took ad-
vantage of the pension to marry also very late in life?— -Not more than
other grades of the service.

3105. I mean the case of a man marrying, say in his last sickness, for
the purpose of securing to his nurse or his attendant a pension ? — I have
heard it rumoured as such> but I never knew a fact of the kind.

3106 Do you think that, to meet this asserted grievance, any arrange-
ment could be made which should on the one hand meet the views of the
warrant officers, and in some measure tend to prevent occurences of that
description ? — Yes: the same rule will hold good with the warrant officers
as with commissioned officers with regard to age. They are not allowed to
marry beyond 60 ; if they do, the widows do not receive an annuity.

3107. Is that the case with all grades in the service? — Yes, all grades
whose widows are entitled to annuities.

3108 They must marry if the widow is to receive a pension before they
are 60 years of age? — Yes.

3109. Did you ever hear of that being proposed as the altermative in-
stead of the total abolition of the pension? — No; when the various Board*
of Admiralty have been memorialized for the restoration of the annuity, the
answer generally given has been that they sympathised with the memorial-
ists, but they had it not in their power to grant their prayer for want of
an order in council, Sir Francis Baring told me, and it required another
to restore it.

3110. Then previously you were in rather a better position than the
commissioned officer, as you could marry at any period of life, and secure
a pension to your widow, whereas the commissioned officer could not when
above the age of 60? — It is only since the pension for the widow of the
warrant officer was abolished, that that rule has come into force, because
a commissioned officer at that time could marry at any age, the same as a
warrant officer.

3111. Is it your opinion that this has been a subject of conversation
among the seamen of the country, who have thought of entering Her Ma-
jesty's navy? — Yes.

3112. Do you think that a seaman looking forward to advancement in
life, and to the rank of a warrant officer, is very much influenced with re-
gard to entrance into the service, by what he may conceive to be an injury
done to the rank of the warrant officer? — Yes.

3113. 1 apprehend that the other points to which you have referred,
although they are matters of importance, do not influence the feelings of
the seamen so strongly as the abolition of the widows' pension? — The
warrant officer while in pay endeavours to live within the limits of his pay,
but with the present small scale of pay, although he may be ever so care-
ful a man, particularly if in the third class, and the change so great from
the petty officer to the warrant officer, (for at first there is the outfit to
provide for,) that it is impossible for any man to make a provision for
his widow, and at his death the widow and the fatherless children, who
have been raised from a humble position in life to a somewhat better
position, are suddenly thrown into distress, and too many, I am sorry to
say, for I have seen it, end their days in the union, I mean the widows
and the fatherless children.

3114. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) Is it not the fact that an increase of pay
was granted for the purpose of enabling warrant officers to effect insurances
upon their lives, when their widows' pensions were taken away?— No, we
never had an increase of pay, or any change for many years until the year
1830, and then there was a change from six rates to three classes. There
was no change from 1836 to 1853; the petty officers and seamen's pay
was increased, to the best of my knowledge, four different times, but the
warrant officers' pay had not been increased one farthing until 1853, and
then the increase of pay that we received was not in proportion to every
other grade of officers in the service, see the accompanying table; there
was no remuneration in that increase of pay to enable us to provide an
annuity, and supposing there was sufficient pay to do it, we have no secu-
rity apart from the Government. One bank stops payment, and another
insurance society breaks, and if superannuated on a small pension obliged
to forfeit the policy being unable to pay the premium.

3115. In point of fact no office would take the risk? — No, for the pre-
miums are much greater on account of the risks of the sea.

3116. (3/r. Cardwell.) I think you said that for any person that might
be provided you would wish to have the absolute security of the Govern-
ment, and not be left to take your chance of the office in which you might
happen to insure? — Yes; in order to meet the views of Her Majesty's
Government, since this increase of pay was given, many warrant officers
have joined various associations, such as the General Annuity Endowment
Association, the Standard Life Insurance Office, and various others, and

tme In which I have taken one share myself. It was £13 for a single
share, for which I pay £5 a year. In the last division of profits it was re-
duced to £10, and I do not know that at the next division it will not come
down to £8. .There is no security in any place but in the Government.

3117. You think that having the security of the Government ior any
pension would be a great inducement to a man to enter into the service for
the purpose of defending his country? — Most assuredly. There is nothing
that will soothe the dying pillow of a man so much as to know that his
wife and family are cared for by his country, and he will go to greater
lengths to what he otherwise would, when he knows that there is some-
thing for his widow and fatherless children.

3118. Whatever it is, you think that it should rest upon the absolute
security of the Government? — Yes.

3119. (Sir J. Elpliinstom} There has been a very considerable change
with regard to the knowledge and education which the Government hare
required on the part of warrant officers in the last 20 years? — Immense.

3120. And consequently they are improved in their social position? —
Particularly so.

3121. I presume that that leads them to seek partners of an equally
respectable grade in life? — Yes, I believe that the generality of the war-
rant officers and their wives of the present day, might bear a scrutiny with
an equal number of the various grades or civilians.

3122. You do not apprehend that if the pensions were restored the
measure would be ill timed or ill bestowed? — No, I have a better opinion
of it. The Government have it in their power to withhold them in any
profligate cases, let that power be exercised upon the guilty only, so that
the innocent may not suffer for the guilty.

3123. Are you of opinion that this detraction from the position of the
warrant officer has the effect of preventing men from looking to the war-
rant as the reward of faithful and steady service? — That is the principal
objection, and next to that, the warrant officers do not command that re-
spect which they did formerly. These are two very great grievances.

3124. (Chairman.) And yet I suppose it is generally admitted that the
warrant officer of the present day has advanced with the improvement of
the time as much as any other class of men in the country? — So far as has
come under my own notice, after 31 years' continuous service, I believe
they have in every respect.

3125. Another circumstance, I believe, affects you, which is that you
are never allowed to retire until you are invalided by a medical board ? —
That is the case, my lord.

3126. If invalided and pronounced unfit to serve by a medical board, in
what position do you find yourself for the rest of your life? — If the war-
rant officer should obtain his warrant when young and in good health, and
be able to make up sea time enough, he would find himself in very fair
circumstances; but if, on the othor hand, he should be advanced in life,
say thirty or thirty-five years of age when accepting the warrant, or, if he
accepted it when young and happened to be injured in his first commission,
he would then be obliged to serve in ordinary, so long as it was possible
to serve, for the sake of the pay he would then receive, differing so much
from what his scale of superannuation would be; therefore at this time
there are officers serving above seventy years of age.

3127. The scale of superannuation at the age of seventy would be so
much below that which he receives as an active oflicer that he is stimulated
to go on after he feels himself unlit for the service ?— Yes, or beyond the
age at which a medical board may say that he is unfit for service.

3128. Is his former long service taken in to consideration upon the ques-
tion of superannuation as a rule? — No. There are many instances in
Portsmouth at the present day in which warrant officers have served from
fifteen to twenty and twenty-four years, men and boys, and they have not
received, on being superannuated, any thing for their services, but only
just the scale ot the warrant officer's superannuation.

3129. (Sir /. Elphinstone.) In the event of a warrant officer being broke,
does he fall back upon the pension which he was entitled to for his servi-
ces before the mast? — That rests principally with their lordships' decision.
If he is broke out of the service he is supposed to have forfeited every
thing, but in most cases they let him come back again as a petty officer,
and he may then regain his position, or make up his time of twenty-one
years for a pension.

3130. Is not this considered rather hard? — We think so, that we should
lose the benefit of our former time. There was a circular prior to 1844,
in which it said that all petty officers receiving the warrant should have
the benefit of their former time for superannuation. But that circular is
lost sight of; it does not appear in the printed instructions; we have
nothing to fall back upon, or to prove our claim to a pension for past
services.

3131. In point of fact, if a warrant officer is dismissed the service for
any act, he is liable to be reduced to pauperism? — Yes; he has nothing to
fall back upon.

3132. Although he may have served as a fore- mast man, and a warrant
officer. For instance, you have served 31 years: suppose you were dis-
missed the service, now you would have no provision whatever to fall back
upon?— None whatever. If I am young enough to serve, their lordships
may, after making up the 21 years before the mast, give me a pension of
£15 to £25 a year. If I was not fit to serve, I should get nothing.

3133. I am supposing that an educated man attains the warrant at an
early age, having worked, say for five or ten years before the mast, and he
unfortunately commits an act of some kind for which he is dismissed the
service, and he has no pension whatever for his time before the mast;
consequently, if he is an old man he becomes a burthen on the parish, and
has nothing to fall back upon? — Nothing whatever.

3134. (Admiral Shepherd.) Is not this the case, that if any officer is
dismissed from Her Majesty's service he forfeits all claim to pension, half-
pay, and everything, so that in that respect you are only exactly in the
same position as every other officer? — If dismissed Her Majesty's service.

3135. But the hardship that you complain of is this, that if a petty
officer becomes a warrant officer, more is expected of him than there was
when he was a petty officer; that he perhaps may have served 19 years
of his time, or may have served his whole time for a pension, and he com-
mits himself as a warrant officer, for which he is tried and dismissed the
service,and has no claim for former services? — Yes, that is one of the points.

3136. But at the same time, that in a great measure is done away with,
because unless it be for some very disgraceful offence it is the rule of the

Admiralty to grant pensions for the time they have served, or to enable
them to return to the service to complete their time for a pension ? — In
some instances that is the case, but for a warrant officer to be dismissed the
service without a trial, is considered a very hard case.

3137. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) It operates more severely upon the warrant
officer than upon the commissioned officer, in so far as the commissioned
officer, in nine cases out of ten, has friends to fall back upon, but the warrant
officer may be dismissed the service at a pericd of lile when he has nothing
but the workhouse open to him ? — That is the case.

3138. (Admiral Shepherd.) Then you mean to say that the seaman is
deterred from wishing to be made, or from exerting himself so as to recom-
mend himself to the position of a warrant officer, trom a fear that although
he may conduct himself with sufficient propriety as to maintain his character
as a seaman, he may not do so as a warrant officer, and thereby he might lose
all he had earned ? — That is of frequent occurrence, and it is an objection to
the man accepting the warrant.

3139. A gunner formerly could hardly be called an educated man, but now
he is so to a very considerable degree, is he not? — Yes.

3140. You are obliged to undergo certain studies, to read certain works,
and to pass certain examinations of rather a strict kind that were not for-
merly exacted? — Every petty officer, prior to his receiving a first-class cer-
tificate, to entitle him to a gunner's warrant, must pass through the rudiments
of arithmetic, mathematics, the square and cube roots, the disparting of guns,
the fitting of fuses, and everything connected with a passable or liberal
education of the present day.

3141. (Chairman.) A passable or liberal education bearing upon his imme-
diate calling? — Yes.

3142. The next point to which you refer in your letter, is the condition
in which the warrant officer is placed, if hurt or wounded in the service.
Will you first state to the Commissioners precisely what your position is
with regard to hurts, and next, with regard to severe wounds? — There are
numerous instances now in the service ; there is one man now in Ports-
mouth harbour who has lost an arm, and another with his arm shattered
and totally useless, and various others have hurts and injuries, for which the
man with the loss of an arm has only <£15 a year, and that while serving ;
that is he has lOd. per day for the loss of his arm, but a man before the mast,
if he has just joined the service, and loses his arm, would get Is. a day for life.

3143. The difference is, that a warrant officer will only receive his pension
during the time that he is serving, and the seaman receives it for the rest of
his life, serving or not serving? —There are many who receive hurts and wounds
who have no pension whatever, nor anything added after the superannuation.

3144. In the present position of affairs, a seaman, if wounded, the wound
being sufficient to warrant a pension, would receive that which would con-
tinue to be paid to him to the day of his death, while you say the warrant
officer would only receive his pension for a similar injury during the time
that he served afloat? — No; if a seaman receives a pension for wounds or
hurts, and he can still serve, he must give that pension up to come into
the service again, unless he is a ship's cook, ship's corporal, or master-al-
arms, he cannot serve and receive the pension for wounds except in those
capacities. A warrant officer, if he receives a wound or hurt, is generally

placed on the harbour duty list, and he cannot go to sea any more, then he is
on reduced pay, but he gets no pension for the wound or the hurt, and he can-
not gain any further advancement, for promotion is stopped when off the sea
service list.

3145. Under what circumstances can a warrant officer receive a pension for
a wound? — There is only one case, and that is a man that has lost his arm,
of any one receiving any pension for many years past, formerly all used to
receive it, and commissioned officers invariably receive pensions for wounds.

3146. Do you state positively that the pension for a wound or a hurt is not
given according to any rule or principle, but that it is merely given at the
caprice of some Government? — We see nothing definite to bind them, to give
any certain amount.

3147. Is there no public minute which allots the various pensions to the
various officers in the service for wounds or hurts? — I have seen them for
seamen and petty officers, never for warrant officers.

3148. You believe that there is no regulation whatever for giving to thn
warrant officers of the service a pension for wounds or hurts? — I am not
aware that there is.

3149. According to your statement a wounded warrant officer would be
placed on a reduced scale of pay,, and compelled to serve upon harbour duty,,
so that the wound has rather been to him a pecuniary injury, or loss, than a
pecuniary advantage? — Most assuredly.

3150. And the wound also tends to lower him in his grade in the service
rather than to raise him? — Yes.

3151. I presume that this is the subject of much conversation among the
warrant officers 1 — Very much so.

3152. Have they ever appealed directly to the Government upon this point?
— They have individually, I know ; but I am not aware of any general appeal
having been made.

3153. With reference to the rewards for active service before the enemy, do
you stand on the same footing with other officers in the service? — No.

3154. Will you show to the Commissioners the difference between a com-
missioned officer and a warrant officer in that case ? — If a warrant officer
reaches the first-class, that is, the highest position he can under existing
circumstances, attain, the senior of every other grade may be promoted to the
next rise, but the senior warrant officer receives no promotion, no reward.

3155. Is there any other reward that he could receive and does receive? —
There is the Victoria Cross, and that is as liable to be given to a third-class
officer, or seaman, or any man for a deed of valour ; but if you are in the
first-class, the senior officer on the station, or where an action may take place,
there is no reward for you beyond the boy who has just joined.

3156. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) Is there a regulation in force by which a war-
rant officer can be promoted to the rank of lieutenant ? — There is a circular
to that effect.

3157. Has that ever been acted upon? — No; though some men have been
recommended in the highest terms possible.

3158. (Chairman.) I understand you to say that, although a rule exists
which enables the Admiralty to promote to the rank of lieutenant a warrant
officer, yet no instance is to be found? — None.

3159. I see that the boatswains complain of being liable to be called upon
to inflict corporal punishment upon the seamen ? — Yes ; there have been cases
in which the gunners have been ordered to do it.

3 ICO. (Admiral Shepherd.) Can you name the ship? — Yes, the "Centaur,'*
©n the Coast of Africa.

3161. At what date was that? — She was the Commodore ship ;. the boat-
swain was sick, and the gunner was called upon to inflict corporal punishment,
There was another instance in the West Indies, in the " Hornet."

3162. (Chairman,) Are you aware that it has always been the practice of
the service for the boatswain to be liable to be called upon to inflict corporal
punishment if required ? — I have been a whole commission in a ship and
have never seen a boatswain do it. In other instances I have seen the boat-
swain frequently called upon to do it.

3163. Are you not aware that there is some necessity, and some public
advantage also, in the boatswain being liable to be called upon to inflict
corporal punishment? — I see none, only in a case of mutiny.

3164. I need not state that it is a disagreeable and a painful duty to inflict
corporal punishment upon a man? — Yes.

3165. Do you not, therefore, think that the advantage which the public
service derives from the power to call upon the boatswain to set the example
of inflicting a necessary punishment is important to the public service? — My
own opinion is, and I also state the opinion in general, that such, infliction of
corporal punishment would be more in accordance with the police duties.

3166. On whom would you wish that this unpleasant duty should fall? —
The master-at-arms and the ship's corporal,

3167. You would transfer the duty of inflicting corporal punishment from
the hands of the boatswain and his crew to the hands of the master-at-arms
and his crew? — Yes. It is disagreeable in either case, and it was the very
objection on which I declined accepting a boatswain's mates rating, because
I should not be called upon to punish a man.

3168. Might not the master-at-arms and ship's corporal refuse to take their
place, because they did not choose to inflict punishment on a man? — On those
grounds they ma.y, but if the particular duty was stated that corporal punish-
ment was to be inflicted by the police, they would know it to be their par-
ticular duty when they accepted the situation, and they would have an.
opportunity to accept or refuse it.

3169. Upon the same ground it has always been the practice of the service
that ths boatswain and his crew should inflict corporal punishment ? — If a
man becomes an officer I think that duty should cease, and it might still
continue with the boatswain's mates.

3170. What position would a ship be in, if, in reference to corporal punish-
ment, the boatswain's mates all refused to inflict it ? — I should think the
ship would be in a state of mutiny, and then the boatswain would be called
upon, or any other officer in a ship, to defend the officers of the ship, as in
the case of a mutiny.

3171. You consider that in such a case the boatswain might be fairly called
upon to use the cat? — I shoald think he woujd be doing his duty to act for
the benefit of the Crown, under any circumstances.

3172. You object to be the leader in the punishment, although you do
not object to the use of the cat-o'-nine-tails in any case of emergency? —

'Hurt, I think, is the clearest manner in which I could answer the question.

3173. I presume you are of opinion that when that grave punishment is
inflicted, it is necessary for the sake of the punishment itself, and for the
purpose of reducing the punishments in the ship, that that punishment
should not be played with ? — Yes.

3174. And that it should be in itself severe to the extent that is permit-
ted?—Yes.

3175. Are you not aware, at the same time, that frequently on board a
man-of-war the boatswain's mates endeavour, and ingeniously succeed very
often, in inflicting very slight punishments, while they are pretending to
inflict very severe ones ? — Yes, I have seen that ; and I have seen men
disrated for the same, and I have seen some only reprimanded.

3176. Is there not sometimes a difficulty, when the boatswain himself
•comes in as a valuable support to the discipline, by being called upon to
.perform that duty ; — There is at the present time, where petty officers and
boatswain's mates particularly mess with the ship's company, and which I
think would not be the case if the petty officers messed separately, they
would not be Iso familiar with the men whom they would have to punish.
It is a very unpleasant thing for a man to punish his messmate, and if he
could do it lightly he would do it.

3177. Are you not of opinion that every man, let him be who he may,
would naturally shrink from performing such a duty f — It has seldom or
ever been my lot to witness any other ; in one or two instances I have seen
men, who have been blackguards, boast of it, but invariably, as a rule, I
think every one would shrink from it.

3178. If you succeeded in throwing that duty off your own shoulders,
do not you think that the example would induce others to throw it off
also? — They would have similar grounds.

3179. Do you really think, to repeat the words of your memorial, that
the being called upon to perform a public duty of that description degrades
the character of your office ? — I do.

3180. Are you aware that every gentleman, if he be a high sheriff of a
county, is compelled by law to put a rope round a man's neck who is
sentenced to be hung, if he cannot, out of his own pocket, find a substitute ?
— I was not aware that the laws of our land ran to such an extent, but having
heard your lordship's statement I take it for granted that such is the case.

3181. And it would not be thought by the public any disgrace to that she-
liff, if, unable to find a substitute, he fulfilled the duties of his office ? — No.

3182. (Mr. Cardwell.) Do you know whether, in history, there is an
instance of any sheriff having been put into that painful position ? — I am
not able to answer that question.

3183. (Admiral Shepherd.) You would be satisfied if boatswains were
never called upon to punish men, unless in cases of mutiny, when no
boatswain's mate or man from the ship's company could be induced to do
so ? — I think then that there would be no boatswain in the service that
would hang back ; none who, from the position which he held, but what
would do it, and if there was any pleasure in it he would consider it to be
at that particular time.

3184. Suppose the Lords of the Admiralty issued a circular, to the
effect that the boatswain should not be called upon to inflict corporal

punishment, unless in cases of mutiny, would you be satined? — I think so.

3185. You are favourable to the petty officers messing together? — Very
much so.

3186. (Sir J. ElpJiinstone.) The master-at-arms and ship's corporal are
the police of the ship ? — Yes.

3187. If I understand you rightly, your suggestion is that the infliction
of punishment should devolve upon them rather than upon the boatswain
and the boatswain's mates? — I think it would be more in keeping with
their calling.

3188. The one party being the police of the ship, and being generally men
who aie not on terms of familiarity with the ship's company, and the other
party being men who rise from the mass of the ship's company, and between
whom and themselves there is, in point of fact, a fellow feeling ? — Yes.

3189. There is nothing in the boatswain's duties, unless it were for old-
established custom and tradition, which should make him the officer always
to be called upon to inflict punishment ? — No ; but From the boatswains'
mates becoming boatswains, they are called upon to take the lead.

3190. There is nothing in the boatswain's duty apart from old usage in
the service to make him the officer to be selected for that purpose in pre-
ference to any other? — No.

3191. (Chairman.) Do you know who performs that painful duty in the
army? — The drum-major and the drummers.

3192. There, then, it is not the police of the regiment that perform that
duty ? — The police, I believe, as far as I have a knowledge of the army,
are the non-commissioned officers, viz., sergeants and corporals.

3193. (Mr. Green.) Are the ships in the navy ever paid off all standing?
— Sometimes ; not frequently.

3194. Who dismantles them? — Sometimes labourers and a few riggers
from the yard ; at other times men from the ordinary, or as they are now
called the steam reserve.

3195. Would it not be desirable, in all cases, to pay the ships off all
standing as soon as they arrived at Spithead ? — From what I have wit-
nessed, in the general method or way in which ships are paid off, I think
it would be advantageous to the country at large, and particularly to the
seamen themselves.

3196. Is there not, generally, great destruction of property in dismantling
by the ship's company ? — To such an extent that you are hardly able to
avoid it, because the officer cannot detect it, he only sees that the articles
are destroyed; he does not know who are the destroyers.

3197. There is loss of life sometimes, is there not? — There has been
frequent loss of life from various causes in stripping ships.

3198. Is it the fact that when a ship is paid off only a certain number of
Jews, bumboat people, tailors and shoemakers are allowed on board, and
that the relatives and friends of the ship's company are kept off in boats
alongside? — They have invariably a preference, and very frequently the
bumboat people, and the Jews or tradesmen are allowed to come in, and
not the relatives and friends of the seamen, and if they are, the tradesmen
and bumboat people are there the whole day, and the relatives and friends
only at certain times.

3199. I conclude, therefore, that the seamen have ample opportunity

for spending a good portion of their money before they leave the ship? — Yes.

3200. Can a man leave the ship immediately after he is paid, or must
he remain on board until all are paid? — Since the ships have been paid
alongside the dockyards they invariable go out of the yard as they are
paid ; when paid afloat they are sometimes kept, that is, the first man is
kept till the last is paid.

3201. To remedy this evil, is it not desirable to pay all the ships at
the pay office of the dockyard ? — Yes, where convenient.

3202. I believe at Woolwich this mode is always adopted? — Within the
last ten years it has been.

3203. Are there any savings' banks in connexion with the naval ser-
vice ? — None that I am aware of, although I have heard letters or cir-
culars read, saying, that men may transmit their wages, or remit their
surplus to the savings' banks. I am not aware of any having done so.

3204. A seaman has no means of remitting any portion of his wages to
his friends through the pay office ? — They can at the expiration of every
six months.

3205 Not at the pay office f — I have heard a letter or a circular read to
that effect, but I do not know that it was ever carried out.

3206. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) Is the option given to them at the pay table of
remitting any part of their money to their friends ? — Yes, or the whole of it.

3207. (Mr. Green.) Do you think if a seaman had £20 or £30 invested
in the savings' banks it would deter him from entering into foreign
service by having as it were a stake in his own country ? — I should think
that any man who would be so provident as to save £20 or £30, and to
put it by in any savings' bank, it would tend to show the man's provi-
dence and carefulness, and that he was a lover of his country, and it
would have a tendency to bind him to it.

3208. And naturally prevent his desertion ? — Yes. I have heard many
men say, " I cannot run away ; the ship has been eighteen months in
" commission, I have so much coming to me, I will run the risk of the
" rest of the time."

3209. Did you visit the " Niagara," the American frigate, when that
ship was over here ? — Yes.

3210. Do you know what portion of that ship's crew and marines were
composed of British subjects ? — Yes ; the boatswain stated, he being a
native of Gosport, and a deserter from the British navy, that three-fourths
of the seamen were English, Irish, and Scotch, and nearly all the marines
were Irish.

3211. (SirJ. Elphinstone.) How many men from the " Excellent" were
on board ? — Some ; I cannot say how many.

3212. (Mr. Green.) Is it your opinion that the fact of a seaman having
money at his command prevents his going to sea, or is he soon tired of the
shore and anxious to get afloat ? — If a single man he generally likes, indeed
invariably, to have what he calls his run out ; there are some men who are
more careful, and put their money by, and every time they come home they
deposit some of their pay in the savings' banks. If they are married, they
endeavour to secure a house to themselves, and if they have no families,
their wives go into service to enable them to do so, in order that they may
live rent free when pensioned off.

3213. Do you consider that the continuous service system is popular among
the seamen ? — It is not generally popular among the seamen, and it is a great
hindrance to the service, and a great drawback to the Crown generally, from
the way in which the present continuous service warrant is in force.

3214. Do you consider that the scale of victualling now adopted is am-
ple, and that the men are quite contented with it ? — They are not.

3215. What do you think is deficient? — The bread particularly. I have
never considered, and I do not think that any man in the service considers,
that one pound of biscuit is sufficient, with fresh provisions in particular.

3216. Do you think that a ship would be more readily manned, if not
commissioned until ready for sea ? — That would depend entirely upon the
reserve of seaman that we had.

3217. If seamen were to be found, do you think they would more easily
join here ? — It would be advantageous to the country and to the seamen to
go on board, and sail in a week or ten days after she was commissioned.
There is nothing that the seamen dislikes so much as what they call a ship
on the home station, and it is attended with immense expense.

3218. (Admiral Shepherd J You have stated that the bumboat people and
Jews are admitted into the ship, whilst the friends and relations of the
men are kept lying alongside ? — Frequently.

3219. Is not that done at the request of and for the convenience of the
ship's company themselves ? — I think not generally ; I have known petty
officers go, on behalf of the ship's company, and request that their friends
might be allowed to come on board, but because one person had been de-
tected bringing in liquor all were kept out.

3220. (Mr. Green.'} Did you ever know an instance of a man trying to
throw some money into a boat where his friends were, that has fallen over-
board?—Yes.

3221. (Admiral Shepherd.) Do officers not allow the Jews and the bum-
boat women to come in, for the convenience of the ship's company, at the
request of the petty officers ? — Invariably,

3222. Then are not the friends of the men kept waiting alongside because,
just at that moment, if the whole of them were allowed to come in at once,
they would interfere with the duties of the ship ? — It may be the case, and
I believe it is, in some instances, but not as a general rule.

3223. But at the time the Jews and the bumboat women are admitted
alongside the ship, she is being paid off? — Paid in advance ; that is the
principal time.

3224. The seaman up to that time have had an opportunity of seeing their
friends, but on that particular day they cannot see them ? — No ; they can,
paying off. The bumboat people are admitted the whole day, when the
friends can only have half an hour or an hour.

3225. But the men have seen their friends up to that time, and are only
separated from their friends during a few hours on that day ? — Yes ; I have
seen ships paid in advance, when the men have not had an opportunity of
seeing their relatives, and they have sent money ashore by their pretended
friends, and their wives have never received it.

3226. You have spoken unfavourably of continuous service ; how does it
work, badly? — We take men, not knowing what characters they are ; they
have never been in the service, and they are taken on for ten years. We

find, before they have been six months on board, they are anything but what
we wish them to be ; but they keep their characters, sufficiently so as not
to be called a bad character, and to be discharged with disgrace. But they
never make seamen, and they are an incubus upon the service, and they are
a burthen to the ship's company and to the commanding officer ; in fact, the
good men have to do their duty for the ten years they are in the service.
That is one part of it.

3227. Might not bad men also be entered for short service? — Yes, not
exceeding twelve months.

3228. Then, as far as you have gone, your only objection to continuous
service is, that bad men are entered for it ; — That is one objection.

3229. If bad men were not entered for it, you would not object to the
continuous service ? — No, not for good men ; but taking into account the
time at which we take them, beginning with the boys first at 14, until they
are 28 years of age, which is, I think, too long an engagement. If we tools:
boys from 14 to 19, that would be five years ; and it would be proved, during
that time, whether the boys had those abilities which would be all we could
expect in the navy, and they make the best seamen in the navy. I believe
that we must trust to our navy for self-supply, and the best we can find for
it are the boys that enter the service at 14. If they are engaged for five
years, they have five years' good training, and during that time you find
whether they are fit to be retained in the service, or discharged at the expi-
ration of that time. If you take them for seven years when they have two
years' additional training, from nineteen to twenty-one, they would be much
better qualified to go into the world. A boy would have had two years'
superior training better than his former five years, to establish him as a
man, for any part of the world, and if he has got seven years to continue
after that, and his treatment has not been good or he has not been rated
according to his abilities, he will desert on the first opportunity ; and that,
I believe, will be found to have increased the number of desertions since
the continuous service warrant came into force. If he had been taken on
for five years at eighteen he would have been four years in the service, and
if he was worthy of being kept in the service you would rete him as an
ordinary seaman, and as soon after an A.B. as he was qualified. If at the
expiration of five years he liked the service you could enter him then for
continuous service for ten years, from that date, giving him an increased pay
for his continuous service ; and if a second ten years' engagement, a second
increase of pay, then his time would be up for a pension, and if he did not
like to join the service he would leave it ; but if at the age of nineteen he
found he was properly treated, and that there was something to aspire to,
and he was a lad of more than ordinary talents, or something very superior,
he might be placed as an encouragement to the navy, and as something to
look forward to, under the tuition of the naval instructor, for the next two
years in his watch below, having the same privileges as the young gentlemen
of the ship, and, at the age of twenty-one, he night be permittted to pass
his examination at the college for a second master or a mate, if qualified^
and such number should be in a proportion of one-fourth or one-sixth of the
officers of the navy, or any number that their lordships may deem worthy.
In order to stimulate the young men in the service, they might be placed on
the quarter-deck, and granted £100 for an outfit, the same as a non-com-

missioned officer in the army when he attains his commission. There would
then be something for every man to aspire to — something to attach him to
the service, and he would not be so ready to enter the merchant service, or
into foreign navies for higher wages. Others that do not aspire so high,
would aspire to warrant officers. If the warrant officers were in a proper
position, so that they could command respect, and were paid for their respon-
sibility, and were allowed to retire at a certain time with a pension for their
widows, there would be an opening for every man in the service to become
either commissioned or warrant officers, and that would give a stimulus and
bind the men in the navy to the service, and it might be suggested that each
petty officer, on becoming a warrant officer, should be granted £50 for an
outfit.

3230. Are you aware that we entered, at one time, boys for seven years? — Yes.

3231. And that at the expiration of that time they almost invariably left us,
having become seamen, and went into the merchant service, where they got
higher wages? — Yes.

3232. Then we educated men entirely for the merchant service? — Yes.

3233. Are you also aware that the reason for continuing them on to twenty-
eight was, that, after having been at the trouble and expense of educating them,
we might have a claim to their services for another seven or eight years? — Yes.

3234. What you object to, is not to continuous service, but to the bad men
who get into the service upon the continuous service system, and to their being
continued in the seivice afterwards, that is to say, you think there is an obli-
gation on the part of the Government to retain those men from fourteen to
twenty-eight, whatever their characters may be? — If not sufficiently bad to be
discharged with disgrace.

3235. Are you aware that whenever a ship comes to England now, the
captain of that ship receives an order to pick out of his ship's campany all
unpromising men, and report their names through the Commander-in-chief to
the Admiralty, and that a certain number of officers go on board to examine
strictly into the case, and to see whether the representations of the captain are
correct, and if so, that those men are discharged from the service? — In some
instances I have known that done.

3236. Then, if that were the case, you would not object to continuous
service? — If there was a modification of the present rule as to continuous
service; that is to say, the time, taking on from fourteen to nineteen, and
when it came to that, again taking on for ten years from that date, I think it
would wonderfully improve the condition of the navy, and there would be fewer
desertions.

3237. Should it be obligatory on a boy to enter again at nineteen, if the
Government required it? — Yes.

3238. Is not that the same thing as retaining him till he is twenty-eight, and
having the power to discharge him if he is not promising? — For a lad at that
age, in order to stimulate him, if there was an increase of pay for every re-entry,
there would be something to bind him to the service.

3239. That has nothing to do with the continuous service, as that would be
the case in any service, short or long; but short service men do not enjoy
that privelege? — The whole of the navy might be brought under the continuous
service warrant if the stages or entries were for different periods ; if, instead
of fourteen years, it was first five years and then ten yean from that date.

3240. That is your idea of how the continuous service system might be
improved ? — Yes.

•3241. (Mr. Cardwell,) What I understood you to say was, that a boy,
having attained the age at which he is fit to be rated as an able seaman,
should have the option of becoming a ten years' man, if he thinks proper,
but the pay and the prospect of promotion in the service should be such as to
induce the clever boys as well as the less aspiring boys to take to the
service from choice? — Yes.

3242. (Sir J. Elphxnstone.) Take the case of a ship fitting out, a great
many men join the ship when she is first commissioned, short of clothes? —
Very short indeed.

3243. In point of fact they are vagabonds? — Too many of them.

3244. No advance can be made to these men because they would probably
run away ? — Yes.

3245. And they suffer, do they not, very great hardships while the ship
is fitting out, from the want of clothes in going backwards and forwards to
the hulk? — Yes; particularly by getting wet, and then getting into the
doctor's list.

3246. And they are bad bargains for the rest of the commission? — Yes.

3247. Would you approve of giving to those men a suit of clothes, when
they first join the ship of a uniform description, so that they might be iden-
tified, and that the service might not suffer by the loss of the clothes? — I
have always been of that opinion, that it would tend much to improve the con-
dition of the seamen and prevent their taking up the clothes and selling them.
I think that a kit should be given to a man on entering the service of the
same value as that which is given to the soldier.

3248. That would be money in addition to his pay, if he got the clothes for
nothing? — Yes.

3249. Do you think that, if the Commissioners recommended that suitable
clothing should be given to a man on entering the service he paying for the
same, or partly paying for the same, by instalments, spread over a certain
period of his service, so as to make it probably 15s. or a pound a year, out
of the able seaman's wages, that that would be acceptable? — I think it would
be a very great improvement. The seamen coming at present from the
merchant service, or men coming from the country come in a very destitute
state. 1 have been employed for the last three years at the rendezvous to
enter men for the "Excellent,'' and for the navy generally. I have seen many
instances of that, and these are characters generally who get what slops they
can, and if possible an advance, and then they desert, and they prevent at the
same time the good men in the ship from having their allotments made out,
as they cannot be made out universally, and this leaves the wives and families
of our seamen in great destitution, because all have to suffer, the good man
has to suffer for these sort of men; who come as strangers into the service,
and sometimes from the merchant service, and I think that if these men had
a suit of clothes or a sufficient supply of clothes, either freely given to them,
or given in part, and allow the men who were continuous service men in
particular, or men who were non-continuous service men, but had been in the
service for some time, that their allotments should continue in force, so that
their wives and families might not be left destitute, it would tend to improve
their condition more than anything. I know everything that relates to

the seamen's wives, and I see them for five or six months together in total
distress, and seeking relief from the parish, although their husbands are in the
service they cannot get their allotments.

3250. Do you think that a more effective police would operate to prevent
desertion, and the stealing of clothes, and in fact make it a safe thing to the
Government to give such advantages as are pointed out? — I think the present
system of police is very defective throughout.

3251. With regard to the allowance of bread, is it the case that the allowance
of bread is deficient, and that the men have not enough to eat? — A man has
not enough when on fresh beef particularly.

3252 The bread is issued twice a week, is it not? — Different ships have
different regulations. I have been one of the petty officers who have asked as
a favor to have the bread issued daily instead of twice or three times, a week,
and I have seen three days bread consumed in one day and a half, and the
men have been without bread for one day and a half.

3253. You have been in China?— Yes, in the "Pylades."

3254. Did you find the meat and bread upon that station deteriorate and
lose its nutritious qualities after a certain time? — Very much so.

3255. Do you think that that affected the health of the ship's company in
any degree? — I can speak personally. I was for seven months and never had
a bit of bread or beef within my lips owing to their bad quality.

3256. How old were those provisions? — That I cannot state; the meat was
what they called country cured meat; cured in India.

3257. Cured in Bengal?— Yes.

3258. Does not the meat even when it is of good quality, frequently shrink,
so that a man has not a sufficient quantity to sustain him in health? — Yes.

3259. To what extent does the salt meat shrink in boiling? — I have seen a
41bs. piece of beef weigh lib. 2oz. after it was boiled.

3260. What is the longest period during which the men fast in the 24
hours? — In some ships they pipe to breakfast very early. The invariable
rule, when a squadron or a fleet are together, is six or seven bells, seven,
o'clock or half-past seven ; but I have seen them pipe to breakfast at four
o'clock in the morning, and if there was no bread in the mess, the men had a
basin of tea the night before and no bread. They have a basin of cocoa the
next morning with no bread, and a man would have to go then till twelve
o'clock.

3261. Then he has a certain quantity of beef shrunk down to whatever it
may be boiled to? — Yes. There is an order from the Admiralty, that when
the beef shrinks down under a certain weight, the men shall have it weighed
over again, and have an increased proportion. There is an improvement in
that when it shrinks in weight, I think to one half.

3262. From dinner-time until breakfast the next morning what meals
intervene? — None, but what they call supper or tea-time, and if there is any
bread in the bag, he gets his bread and tea now. There used to be half an
allowance of grog, which is discontinued. He has his tea and biscuit, and
he goes from that time till the next morning, till seven or hall-past seven.

3203. Have you heard the men complain of weakness from these very long
fasts? —I have heard very frequent murmurings, and speaking personally, I
have felt very great inconvenience, and I dare say others have felt the same.

3264. In a hot climate, do you attribute any of the sickness which fre-
quently prevails, to the want of food in the morning, to the insufficiency
of food during the twenty-four hours, or to the improper division of the
food. Has it affected your own health? — Yes : when I have been a long
time on boat service or anything of that sort, I have not had my meals at
the regular time, or I have missed one meal, being on watch or rowing
guard, my appetite has gone, and I have not been able to take food.

3265. An officer has invariably a cup of coffee and a bit of something
at daylight in the morning? — If he can get it.

3266. (Chairman.) You have stated, that in China you served in a ship
where they piped to breakfast always at 4 o'clock; that the men had
nothing to eat from 4 till 12 ; that they had at 4 o'clock their tea or sup-
per, and that an interval elapsed between that time till 4 o'clock next
morning, during which time they had nothing to eat. Will you have the
goodness to state to the Commissioners whether the provisions that are
served out to a ship's company, particularly the bread, tea, and sugar, and
some other minor provisions, are not in the hands of the seamen who can
help themselves to them when they please? — The bread, tea, and sugar,
my lord, are invariably in the hands of the seamen

3267. Then I apprehend that the seamen could have gone and put their
hands into the bread bag, and have helped themselves to some food during
those intervals? — If they had any there.

3268. If they had not any there, do not you suppose that the reason
why they had not any there was, that many of them had helped them-
selves in the interval? — With a new ship's company, I know that it is a
very frequent practice for young hands to put their hands in the bread
bag, but it is not so with old, experienced men-of-war's men.

3269. Will you tell the Commissioners how much money was paid in
that ship for provisions saved during any one year, or any six months of
the time you were on board? — I am not aware of any amount. That is
quite out of my line, the savings of provisions. It is quite foreign from
my calling, I know there are savings which arise from various causes, not
from a superfluous quantity of provisions, but because it is so bad that it
cannot be eaten; and at other times the men put down a certain portion
of their monthly money to buy vegetables and other things to take to sea,
as a sea stock. I have never known a quantity of bread left behind when
on fresh provisions.

3270. Did you ever know money paid to the ship's company for savings ?
— Frequently.

3271. What was the name of the ship that you have been alluding to,
with reference to the diet, and that piped to breakfast at four o'clock in
the morning, with not sufficient provisions ?— I hope your lordship will
understand me. I did not say that it was always, but frequently the
case to pipe to breakfast at four o'clock.

3272. I must know the name of the ship where the ship's company was
piped to breakfast at four o'clock in the morning, and where the men were
long intervals without food? — I think your lordship will recollect that I
stated it was not the general rule of the service, that it was the custom of
captains and commanders to pipe to breakfast, when apart from a fleet or
a squadron, at their own discretion.

3273. I beg that you will give the name of the ship? — At the time I
alluded to principally it was in the " Pylades."

3274. Do you mean to assert that in that ship no money was paid to
the ship's company for savings? — I do not mean to say any such thing.

3275. (Mr. Cardwell.) What you meant to say was that the provisions
were short, or the mode of living inconvenient and unsatisfactory, yet
that there had been occasions when you yourself had been a sufferer from
the want of adequate provisions ? — As an officer and a gunner in the
"Pylades," for four years, or very nearly, in the China war; the bread
for one particular season, namely, seven months, and the salt provisions
were so bad, I never put one bit into my lips.

3276. Do you mean to say that upon that particular occasion the other
men found the same objection to the food as you did, or were you, from,
bad health an exception? — My health was very much impaired during
that time, and my principal food was tea, sugar candy, and rice.

3277. Do you mean to say that the objection to the bread and meat was
so strong that it affected the crew generally, or only persons like yourself
in infirm health? — The beef and the bread were very bad, and the crew
generally found them so.

3278. Then do you mean to say that the inconvenience felt in the ser-
vice occurs occasionally on particular stations, when the meat and bread
turn out bad, or that the general supply of provisions in the navy is inade-
quate?— The provisions issued in the navy now are much better than they
were at that date; they are not so old, and I think that as to the provi-
sions generally, there is no fault found about the quality of them, and I
am not aware that there is as to the quantity, except at the present time
as to the bread ; the bread is not considered sufficient.

3279. With regard to the meat, we may take it that the allowance is
sufficient, and, generally speaking, that the quality is good ? — Invariably.

3280. You think that a larger allowance of bread is requisite? — I do.

3281. Does that apply to all stations, and all times, or does it apply
particularly to cold stations, and to any other special circumstances to
which you can direct our attention? — Invariably men will eat more in cold
weather than in warm; young hands will eat more than a man-of-war's
man ; the fresh meat will always require more bread than the salt provi-
sions, because you have on one occasion peas, and on another flour, which
more than counterbalances the small supply of vegetables that you get.
With the pork we have peas, with the beef flour.

3282. Are you prepared to say that, except the bread, the allowance of
provisions is adequate in quantity and satisfactory in quality, and that you
wish the commissioners to recommend a general increase in the quantity
of bread?— Yes,

3283. What general increase would you wish us to recommend? — At
all times, when on fresh provisions, the bread should be IJlb. ; when on
salt provisions, there are different opinions upon that. I think that lib.
is sufficient when on salt provisions, for on one occasion you have flour,
and on another peas.

3284. (Mr. Green.) If there was no limit to the allowance of bread, would
it be wasted on board a man-of-war? — I do not think it would be wasted
more there than in the merchant service. I have been in the merchant
service, and I have never seen it wasted, and whenever we came on board,
we could go and eat as much as we liked, but we wasted none. I have
found that there was less consumed, when it was so issued. I have known

men take it up, if they have been at variance with the steward ; they would
take it up and get rid of it under any circumstances, but not waste it.

3285. (Chairman.) Are you of opinion that a seaman, instead of re-
ceiving payment for a ration that he did not consume, would be better
satisfied with the power to take what he liked, under the regulation of the
police, but to receive no remuneration whatever in money ? — I do not think
he would. The payment for the savings of provisions enables the seamen
when in port to have a change, that is they can get soft bread or other
provisions, such as fresh meat. If they had, no change, and there was no
payment for the savings, they would be always confined to one diet, and
it would take a portion of their pay to provide a change, and that would
lessen their income.

3286. (Admiral Shepherd.) Is it not your opinion that upon many occa-
sions the shrinkage in salt beef is not sufficiently made up to the ship's
company? — I am of that opinion.

3287. Then you would recommend that the shrinkage should be made
up in a more liberal way than it is now ?— It would improve the scheme of
victualling for the navy, and I believe the seamen would be better satisfied.

3288. You are for the seaman having his pound of beef and not less
from the coppers? — Yes, I am.

3289. What is your opinion of the position and treatment of the seamen
in Her Majesty's service in the present day? Have they any grievances,
and if they have, state them? — The treatment of seamen generally has
wonderfully improved within the last few years, in every ship almost, with
some few exceptions. The good conduct warrant is a general source of
grievance and murmuring to the seamen now. A petty officer who has
been fifteen years a petty officer gets nothing for his stripes, if he gets
them after he has got the badge, whereas a man who has been fifteen years
an able seaman, and is then made a petty officer, gets 3d. a day more than
a man who has been fifteen years a petty officer; there is no increase of
pay for increased service, after the first entry, but for an able seaman just
entered, or an ordinary seaman just rated A.B., and one who has been ten
years or fifteen years, the pay is the same, and I think that there should
be something after the second or the third entry to induce them to remain
in the service, and to show that they are worth more to the country after
ten or fifteen years' experience than a man who has just entered. There
is another grievance that is complained of, and it is a too frequent one,
namely, that one man is punished for another one's faults. If one man
breaks his leave, perhaps the whole watch is stopped ; if a man gets drunk,
the whole mess may be punished. These things differ in the punishment,
and the mode of punishment, under different captains and commanding
officers. I have also stated that I thought the police of the ship was im-
perfect in order to avoid drunkenness or traffic in grog between decks,which
is the foundation of the principal part of the punishments in a man-of-war.
When a man leaves his spirits behind, he leaves sixteen days' allowance
for 9d., that is, if he gets it from the paymaster. If he takes the spirits
up, he will always find people ready to buy it, and to give him 3d. for his
half-gill, and he will therefore receive 4s. instead of 9d. This induces men
to take np their spirits, and to traffic or trade in it with those inclined to
drink it, whereas if the men were paid the full value of the spirits, it would
be left behind instead of being sold to the men to get drunk with between

decks. I know there has been an objection to that, because Government
'get it duty-free, but this is a thing which I have witnessed. I speak facts
not advising any one to act upon them, but only as a suggestion. The
method of drill is in some cases very harassing, experienced seamen being
drilled with inexperienced men, and too frequently drilling seamen against
time, instead of teaching them how to do the work. Continuous service
men feel that they have been broken faith with, in their allotments not
being kept in force, while remaining in the service. Again seamen inva-
riably like to choose their own ship, some men always prefer a small ship,
and others a large one ; they also like to choose their own captain, and if
good men are forced into a ship against their will with a lot of bad men,
there is always discontent and division between the ship's company.
Medals and gratuities are not granted to men, that is, as a general rule,
unless a ship is paid off. A man serves in the service for twenty-one
years, and takes up his pension, and because the ship is not paid off, he
cannot be recommended for a medal, or a gratuity, and he loses £10 or
£15 as a gratuity and a medal, and the advantage of £4 10s. a year pen-
sion which is given to 1 per cent, or 1 in every 100, and sometimes there
are ten men whom the captain would like to recommend, all the ten men
are equally deserving, but only perhaps two out of the ten get it.

3290. And they lose their chance? — Yes, they do, if they do not serve
again, and have not some captain to recommend them, on being paid off,
they do not get it. They have the same risk to run as before. There is
another point, the gunners in the Excellent number from thirty to sixty,
and sometimes more, but thirty-five is the average, speaking of the gun-
ners' mess, they have to form their mess and to keep themselves respect-
able at all times, to perform the principal duties of the ship, and be ready
to be sent to sea at an hour's notice. They have nothing to form a mess,
no increased pay, they are on harbour pay, the only class in the ship not
on sea pay. They are also on a reduced scale for retirement. What I
have stated, I have said, I trust, from a love of my country and of the ser-
vice generally, and if I have made any statement that has not met the
views of the Commission, I trust they will pardon me, I have done it from
a pure love of my country, and for the good of the service I belong to.

3291. (Chairman.} Will you have the goodness to state to the Commis-
sioners the names of the ships which you have served in in the navy? —
"The Prince," "The Favourite," "Excellent," " Rodney," " Cornwallis,"
" Excellent," « Malabar," « Cornwallis," " Excellent," " Pylades,"
"Amazon," "Fisgard," " Sans Pareil," "Excellent."

3292 The "Excellent" was, I believe, the gunnery ship in Portsmouth
Harbour? -Since 1833.

3293. You never served in her otherwise? —No.

3294. The "Fisgard," is an ordinary ship? — When I was in her I was
borne as an additional gunner to train the dock-yard battalions.

3295. What ships can you distinguish from the rest as ships in active
service? — All the remainder were active ships.

3296. The opinions which you have formed of the service have been not
unnaturally formed in the ships you have served in ? — I have formed
them, my Lord, from personal experience.

3297. Your personal experience has been gained with the officers with
whom you have served?— Yes,

3298. You have stated that one of the grievances is, that one man is
liable to be punished for another. I should very much like to know
whether that is your idea of the general conduct of the captains of ships,
in reference to the management of their crews? — Some captains are quite
the reverse and leave every man to bear his own burden, and are par-
ticularly desirous of sifting out a matter, in order that no man should be
punished unjustly.

8299. Your next grievance is, that men are punished for being drunk,
and in that case the whole mess is very often punished for one man? —
Yes.

3300. Is it not the practice of the seamen to appoint a man under the-
title of cook of the mess, who keeps the mess kits clean, the mode of re-
munerating him being by giving him the surplus of their grog daily ? —
In some ships it is so.

3301. Is it not, as far as you know, and have heard, the general prac-
tice of the seamen in the service to do it where they can ? — No. I have
been in messes where we would not have that, and every man has taken
his regular allowance of grog.

3302. Where it is done, that in itself would produce a drunken man in
every mess in the ship once a day? — If they did it to that extent that
the men's spirits were so reduced as to give the surplus quantity to the
cook, it would be so

3303. Would it be wrong to punish the mess for the drunkenness of
the one man in that case?— One man cannot lead twenty.

3304. But the mess has originated a system whereby they make one
man drunk daily. Is there any impropriety in such a case, in punishing
the mess for that one man's drunkenness? — That is a question that I am
not prepared to answer.

3305. In such a case is not the punishment mild when it is inflicted ?
— The caterer of the mess is generally the greatest sufferer, although he
may know no more about it than the greatest stranger, and the drunken
man may not have drawn the spirits upon which he got drunk from his
mess. The caterer of the mess is called upon to give an account, and
he cannot do it; and sometimes he forfeits his conduct badge, and some-
times his petty officers' badge, in consequence of the man being drunk.

3306. You refer also to another grievance, namely, the harassing drill
that takes place on board of ship. I apprehend that that would fall very
fairly in your own mind upon particular individuals, and not upon the
whole service? — Xot upon the whole service.

3307. You also state that you very much object to " drilling against
time" without instructing the men? — Yes.

3308. I apprehend that every man would agree with you in that
opinion? — If the men were taught to do their work first, quickness would
follow ; but if they try to make the men do it quickly, before they have
learnt how to do it properly, as a practical officer your lordship knows
what the result would be.

The witness withdrew.

Cambridge Terrace, Lake Lane,
Portsea, January 7, 1859.

SIR,

The deputation of the Gunners, Boatswains, and Car-
penters of the Royal Navy, beg leave to return their sincere thanks to the
Royal Commission for Manning the Navy, for the patient investigation
granted them to corroborate the statements contained in their memorial ;
and furthermore, with a view to assist the Commissioners in their delibe-
rations, do, in accordance with your letter of the 29th ult., humbly lay
before them the enclosed documents, trusting they may not in the least be
considered as dictating to the Royal Commission, only endeavouring to
show in a plain statement the contrast between the navy and army, with
a few suggestions, praying the consideration of the Commissioners.

We are, &c.,

The DEPUTATION.

THOMAS HOWELS, Gr.
WILLIAM ANDREWS, Gr.
RICHARD SPRY, Gr.
GEORGE LUMB, Gr.
JAMES PIBWORTH, Gr.
JAMES COOPER, Gr.
JOHN T. WALKER, Gr.
JAMES GARDEN, Bn.
WILLIAM SMITH, Bn.
GEORGE WEBBER, Bn.
JOHN DENNISON, Bn.

H. C. ROTHERY, Esq.,
Secretary.

WILLIAM NICHOLS, Bn.
JOHN GRIGG, Bn.
JAMES UFFIN, Bn.
STEPHEN MOORE, Cr.
JOHN JONES, Cr.
EDWARD STRICKLAND, Cr.
JOSIAH Y. EARL, Cr.
WILLIAM CORNISH, CR.
JONATHAN MAY, Cr.
ROBERT HALL, Cr.

Navy.

Army.

Pay per day.

Able Seaman: — *. d.

Continuous service ... 1 7

Non-continuous ditto ... 14

2nd Class Petty Officer:—

Continuous service ... 1 10

Non -continuous ditto ... 1 7

1st Class Petty Officers-
Continuous service ... 20
Non-continuous ditto ... 1 9

Chief Petty Officer:—

Continuous service ... 23

Non- continuous ditto ... 20

Query, Might not continuous service
men have an increase of pay at their
second entry?

Query, Might not 1st class petty officers
be paid equal to Serjeants, and chief
petty officers as serjeant-majors?

Private: —

Cavalry, Is. 3d., after 17 years
Infantry, Is., after 14 years

Corporal : —

Cavalry, Is. Tgd., after 17 years
Infantry, Is. 4d., after 14 years

Colour- Serjeant, Infantry ..
Quartermaster- Serjeant, Infantry
Serjeant-Major, Cavalry ,.
Serjeant-Major, Infantry

d.
5

9
6

2 4
2 0
2 6

2 8

3 8
3 0

Navy.

Army.

Clothing, Annual Value of

Query, May not clothing of an equal
value be granted petty officers and
seamen ; also boys on entry ?

Serjeant of Infantry
Corporal of Infantry
Private of Infantry

£ 5, d.
792
4 19 0
260

Good Conduct Badyes.

Seamen and petty officers are paid from
one penny to three pence per day only,
petty officers are not paid for good-
conduct badges received after they be-
come petty officers; this causes much
discontent.

Privates and corporals are paid from one
penny to sixpence per day, Serjeants
are not paid for badges, they have had
a universal increase of t\vo pence per
day added to their pay.

Annuities.

Petty officers have no annuities. For a
short time they were allowed a "short
service gratuity," on the ship being
paid off, at the rate of one per cent. ;
that is discontinued. Query, Might
not petty officers be granted a similar
reward for distinguished or meritorious
service?

Formerly £2000 were allowed. But
from the 4th June, 1553, £4000 per
year is granted in distributing annui-
ties, as rewards for distinguished or
meritorious service, to Serjeants £20
each, with or without pension, may
be held during service, and together
with pension.

Medals and Gratuities.

For long service and good conduct the navy and army are treated alike, but cer-
tain restrictions in the navy prevent many men of good conduct from obtaining
such rewards when they have served their time, viz., 20 or 21 years.

Pensions.

Serjeant-Majors, not to

exceed

Serjeants not to exceed
Corporals not to exceed
Privates not to exceed

6 per day.

Query, May not chief petty officers

equal serjeant-majors?
Query, 1st class petty officers equal

Serjeants?
Query, 2nd class petty officers equal

corporals ?
Query, Able seamen, equal privates?

The non-commissioned officers receiving higher pensions than petty officers, is
a cause of much_discontent in the navy.

Outfits.

Query, Might not every petty officer
obtaining a warrant, receive £50 for
an outfit? The average cost of such
varies from £60 to £80.

Every non-commissioned officer recei-
ing a commission in a cavalry regiment,
receives £ loO for an outfit ; infantry,
£100.

Relative Rank.

Lieutenants, master of fleet, masters, }

chaplains, surgeons, and paymasters } with captains.

Mates and assistant surgeons .. ,, lieutenants.

Second masters and midshipmen . . „ ensigns.

Gunners, boatswains, carpenters .. None assigned.

They are storekeepers and executive | Quartermasters are storekeepers, am1
officers in addition. The carpenter is have that duty alone to perform ; thev
also a master mechanic. rank with subalterns of the same date.

Navy.

Array.

Pay per Day.

Gunners, boatswains, carpenters: —

Sea pay. Harbour pay.
*. d. s. d.

1st class 67 - 57

2nd - 58-44

3rd - 49-36

The above is the highest scale of pay, no
matter what length of service.

Quartermasters, first appointment: —

Cavalry, 8s. 6d.; infantry, 6s. 6d. per day.

*. d.

10 years as quartermaster, or\

15 yrs. as non-commission- f C. 10 6
ed officer & quartermaster, i I. 86
5 of which as quartermaster. )

After 15 years quartermaster \

or 20 years commissioned I Q 10 0
or non-commissioned offi- >
cer, 10 years of which as \
quartermaster /

Retirement.

Gunners, Boatswains, Carpenters, have

no claim to retire till pronounced ' unfit

to serve,' then for every year served at

sea as gunner, boatswain, or carpenter,

£3 per year is allowed; for every year

in harbour, £1 10.; in addition from

£1 to £15 discretional.
Example:... For 10 years petty officer and

seamen, nothing ; 15 years "sea time,"

£45; 5 years "harbour" time, £7 10s.

with £15 added. Total Retirement,

£67 10s. per year, equal to 3s. 8d. per

day, for an aggregate of 30 years' ser-
vice.

Widows' Pensions per annum.

Gunners, Boatswains, Carpenters, war-
ranted subsequent to June, 1830.
If killed in action ... £35

Drowned, or violent death ... 30

Natural death ... none

Quartermasters.

Unqualified claim to retire. Victoria R.,
17th December, 1855. Quartermasters
who shall have served for an aggregate
period of 30 years, 10 of \vhich as quar-
termaster, shall have a claim to retire
with the honorary rank of captain,
upon the half-pay of 10s. per day.

Quartermasters.

Under 10 yrs, After 10 yrs. Do. 20 yr&.

£46 £60 £80

40 50 65

36 40 50

Compassionate Allowance.

Do not extend to the children of gun-
ners, boatswains, and carpenters, only
to commissioned officers; here they
lose much from, having no position;
they also lose the advantage of various
schools for their children.

Losses by Fire, Wreck,

Gunners, Boatswains, Carpenters.

Entire loss of clothes, bedding, \ ^

cabin furniture, &c. ... } '

Quartermasters.

The amount granted varies according to
circumstances, viz., from £8 to £16
per year for each child.

Quartermasters.

Entire loss of clothes, &c. ... £6&
Tent,&c 12

A PROPOSED SCHEME for Improving the
Condition of the Royal Navy.

1st. Open the Quarter-deck to Promotion, and to each so promoted
grant £100 for an outfit.

2nd. Let the position of Gunners, Boatswains, and Carpenters, be first
class, to rank with Masters of the same date; second class with Mates of
the same date ; third class with Second Masters of the same date. To
each Petty Officer warranted, grant £50 for an outfit.

3rd. Gunners to be exempt from charge of decks, main-yard, and
rigging.

4th. Grant Warrant Officers (so called) a relative rank in the Army.

5th. Prize money, check money, and pay will depend much upon the
position assigned them, it is thought that they may be compared with
Quarter-masters of the Army, and paid according to their length of
service.

6th. Reduced or "harbour" pay abolished.

7th. Pay of a Boatswain of a Dock-yard and Master Rigger as for-
merly, viz.: £250 per year.

8th. Widows Pensions; the amount will depend much upon the posi-
tion granted. — We quote the Quarter-masters of the Army for example.

9th. Retirement might be granted after an aggregate of 30 years' ser-
vice, increasing the amount as the warranted time increased. Vide
Quarter- masters.

10th. Pensions for wounds or hurts in proportion with other grades.

llth. Rewards to the seniors for "War Service" by a "Good Service
Pension."

12th. Boatswains to be exempt from inflicting corporal punishment.

13th. Total losses by fire, wreck, &c.; £60 would scarce meet the ave-
rage amount; £30 only is allowed.

14th. That no Gunner, Boatswain, or Carpenter, be dismissed the
Service without Trial by "Courts-Martial."

15th. That any improvement granted might extend to those now in
the Service, that they may reap the benefit of their past Services ; this
would allow old and infirm Officers to retire, and open the door of pro-
motion throughout the Service.

16th. That a copy of all the dutiess pay, pension, retirement, &c- be
granted each Gunner, Boatswain, and Carpenter, for their future guide.

MANNING THE NAVY.

The following is the Keport of the Eoyal Commissioners
appointed to inquire into the best means of Manning the
Navy, just presented to both Houses of Parliament by com-
mand of Her Majesty: —

" To THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY.

"We, your Majesty's Commissioners, appointed 'to inquire into
the best means of manning the navy, and in what manner, and
under what arrangements, seamen may be readily obtained for
such purpose, either during peace or in case of sudden emergency
or war/ and to offer such suggestions as may occur to us 'for the
amendment of the system at present in existence, and the means
by which, under the perogative of the Crown, the fleet was here-
tofore manned in time of war/ and especially to report to your
Majesty our * opinion as to the way in which the valuable services
of the seamen of the mercantile marine and the seafaring popula-
tion of the united kingdom may be rendered more readily and
willingly available, when required for your Majesty's naval ser-
vice, do most humbly report to your Majesty as follows : —

"1. We have in obedience to your Majesty's commands, carefully perused
the report of the committee of naval officers appointed in the year 1852, to
enquire into various subjects relating to the manning of the navy, together
with the evidence taken before them, as also your Majesty's order hi Coun-
cil, dated the 1st of April, 1853, by which the recommendations of that
committee were, as far as it was then deemed necessary, carried into effect ;
and we have called for such papers and returns, and have examined such
witnesses, as appeared to us to be likely to afford the best information on
the matters referred to us.

" 2. The points to which our attention has been directed are: — 1. The
mode in which your Majesty's ships are manned in time of peace, the con-
dition of the seamen, and whether any alterations could be introduced by
which the service might be rendered more popular ; 2. The mode in which
the fleet has heretofore been manned in time of war ; the means which exist
for that purpose ; the character and extent of the reserves on which re-
liances can be placed; what measures it is now desirable to adopt; and the
means by which the services of the merchant seamen and the seafaring po-
pulation of the united kingdom could be rendered more readily available.

"Mode of Manning the Navy in time of Peace.

" 3. Prior to the year 1853, the practice during peace was to enter vo-
lunteers for particular ships, nominally for five years, but practically for
the period during which the ship remained in commission, averaging from
three to four years. This system was attended with great inconvenience
to the public service and even to the seamen themselves. Men who had
been trained at great trouble and expense, and had been brought to a state
of the highest efficiency, were suddenly dismissed, and being unable to ob-
tain readmission to the service, often sought employment under a foreign
flag, and thus, when required for Your Majesty's ships, were not to bo
procured. This led not only to great delay in conducting the ordinary
duties of the service, but was the source of serious embarrassment, when
political considerations rendered necessary the speedy equipment of a fleet.

" Continuom Service System.

" 4. With the view of ascertaining whether other arrangements might
not be adopted with advantage to the service, and at the same time be the
means of improving the condition of the petty officers and seamen of the
fleet, a committee of naval officers was appointed in the year 1852, by the
Duke of Northumberland, the then First Lord of the Admiralty, to consider
* the question in all its bearings ;r and, in pursuance of the recommendations
of that committee, the continuous service system, by which seamen were
induced for certain advantages to engage themselves to serve continuously
for a period of 10 years, was introduced into your Majesty's navy.

" 5. That system has now been in partial operation between five and six
years, and, although it has not been carried out to the full extent contem-
plated by the committee, it has already been attended with very beneficial
results, and has secured to the country a body of well-trained and efficient
stgamen, whose attachment to the service is the best security for the faithful
performance of their duties.

" 6. We have the strongest evidence before us that under this system the
ordinary peace establishment of the Navy can be maintained by voluntary
recruitment at whatever constant force your Majesty and Parliament may
determine ; and if the recommendations of the committee, to which we are
about to advert, were carried into effect, we think that the country would
reap the full benefit of the system, and that the peace establishment of the
Navy would be placed upon a satisfactory footing.

" 7. The committee of 1852, in their report, observed that it was chiefly
to the boys that they must look for the gradual organization of a permanent
navy. They stated that by official returns it appeared that, during the
preceding 12 years, upwards of 2000 boys had upon an average been annu-
ally entered, 'a number which would go far, on the usual peace establish-
ment of the navy for that period, to replace the vacancies caused by deaths,
invalidings, pensions, casual discharges, &c.' And they add, that experience

hud taught them, thut ' men, who have been received into the navy as boys
become, from early habits and associations, more attached and adhere more
closely to the service than those entered at a more advanced age, and that
they eventually constitute, from their superior education and training, the
most valuable part of the crews of Her Majesty's bhips.' In this opinion
we concur.

" 8. At the present time, however, only about 500 of those who annually
enter the Navy have the advantage of passing through the training vessels,
and so sensible are we of the advantages of early training that we recommend
that a large ship, similar to the Britannia at Portsmouth, and capable of
affording accommodation to 500 boys, should be placed at Plymouth ; and
that four additional training vessels should be provided, which would ena-
ble the whole of the boys required for the navy to receive the same instruc-
tion. This would entail an expense of about £15,918 per annum.

"Reserve in the Home Ports.

"9. Another recommendation of the committee of 1852, which has not
hitherto been carried into effect, is the maintaining an adequate reserve of
seamen in the home ports. They observed that from the information and
evidence that had been laid before them ' during the progress ot the inquiry,
they had been led to the conclusion that it was desirable to keep a larger
force at home than had been customary of late years ;' and they recommend-
ed, 'that your Majesty's navy should be maintained at such a numerical
force in commission as, independently of the Channel squadron, will admit
of 10,000 seamen and boys (exclusive of officers) being retained in England
for the protection of the ports and the coasts of the united kingdom.

" 10. The evidence before us shows that, when a ship of war is commis-
sioned, the most costly part of her complement, namely the officers, and
perhaps the greater part of her crew, immediately become a charge upon
the State, and continue so for several weeks, and even months, during which
she is unable to put to sea for want of the smaller portion of her crew;
while the whole expense of the shiip which she was intended to relieve is
going on.

"11. "We are. therefore, of opinion that a reserve of seamen should al-
ways be maintained in the home ports, ready to complete the crews of
ships put in commission, for the relief of foreign stations, and as the best
and most prompt of all reserves in the event of a sudden armament. The
number to be thus retained in the home ports should bear a relation to the
number in commission ; and, with our present peace establishment, we
think that it should not be less than 4000, besides those retained in the
harbour guard ships. Such an arrangement also would afford a ready
means of giving a systematic training in gunnery to all the men in your
Majesty's naval service. We estimate the additional expense of this reserve,
after allowing for the economy consequent on the rapidity of the reliefs, at
the sum of £132,000.

44
"Seamen- Gunners.

" 12. And here we beg to call your Majesty's attention to the extreme im-
portance of encouraging seamen to qualify themselves as seamen-gunners.
The committee of 1852 recommended that the number under training in the
Excellent and her tenders should be increased ; they stated that they could not
overrate the ' advantages which the naval service had derived from the syste-
matic instruction and training, both of officers and men, in gunnery and the
use of arms, as established on board that ship. '

" 13. In this opinion we concur; we believe that seamen, well trained in
gunnery, are becoming daily more and more essential, and in order to induce
seamen more readily to enter the gunnery ships Excellent and Cambridge, and
to qualify themselves for the highly important situations of seamen-gunners,
we recommend that the pay of each class of seamen-gunners be increased to
the extent of Id. a day. With a view, also, of retaining them when once
qualified, we recommend that a period of five years' service as seamen-gun-
ners should count as six years towards a long service pension, and that the
pension should be payable to them only in the United Kingdom and the Channel
Islands. These measures appear to be rendered necessary by a review of the
relative position of this class as compared with the Coastguard and other
branches of the service. We think, also, that of the 4000 men retained in
the home ports 1000 should always be seamen-gunners. The extra charge
on this head would be about £6239 per annum.

** 14. These measures are, in our opinion, all that are needed under the
foregoing heads to place the peace establishment of the navy on a firm and
satisfactory basis, and to secure the complete and efficient working of the con-
tinuous semce system. Great care should, however, be taken in selecting
the men. Looking to the efficiency of the reserves, which we hope to form
out of those who have served for 10 years' continuous service, we think that
it is desirable that they should not be above the age of 25 at the time of their
admission, and above all that they should be strong and healthy.

" Condition of the Seamen in the Royal Navy.

** 15. Though there is no difficulty under the continuous service system in
maintaining the peace establishment of the navy, yet your Majesty's service is
not so popular as it should be with the great body of the mercantile marine.
The disinclination to enter the navy in the minds of a large portion of the
merchant seamen is to be traced chiefly to ignorance of the usages of th" ser-
vice, and of the advantages which it offers to the seaman, for we find that the
better the service is known the more its privileges are appreciated and the
greater is the willingness to join it. We have satisfied ourselves that there is
no undue severity in your Majesty's service; on the contrary, the witnesses
place a high value on the strict observance of discipline, and consider that
crews are exposed to injury and injustice whenever, from weakness in the
commander oi a ship, discipline is relaxed. At the same time we are of opin-
ion that some arrangements in regard to the condition of the seamen might
properly be introduced, which would tend to make the service more popular.
These we proceed to indicate to your Majesty.

"The Hulks.

"16. The witnesses complain of the condition of the hulks, in which the
men are lodged while their ships are fitting out. They state that the hulks
are so uncomfortable that both officers and meu have the greatest dislike to
them ; all desire to escape from them as soon as the day's work is over, pre-
ferring a residence on shore to the great detriment of the infant discipline of
the newly raised crew. An experiment has, however, been lately tried at
Portsmouth, by the establishment of a model hulk, the Bellerophon, which has
been attended with great success. "We recommend that the attention of the
Admiralty be called to this matter, and that improvements be made in the
lighting, ventilating, wanning, and other internal arrangements of the hulks,
upon which the health and comfort of the men so much depend.

"Provisions.

"17. Witnesses of great authority have told us that they consider the al-
lowance of provisions on board your Majesty's ships to be sufficient; and in
proof of that opinion they point to the fact that large payments are frequently
made to a ship's company for savings of provisions. This, however, is not
conclusive evidence, for the savings of a ship's company arise from a variety
of causes: first, the provisions, when of indifferent quality, are not taken up,
and are consequently paid for as savings; secondly, when a ship is in port the
men purchase largely from the shore out of their pay, and in that case do not
take up their provisions; and, thirdly, a considerable proportion of the savings
is due, not to men, but to the officers, who very generally save the whole, or
nearly the whole, of their allowance.

" 18. On the other hand, we have the evidence of the men themselves,
strongly confirmed by that of several eminent naval officers, that the allowance
in your Majesty's service of both bread and meat, which is only lib.
of each daily, is inadequate. In the Peninsular and Oriental and the
Royal Mail Steam Packet Companies' services the allowance of salt meat
is half as much again; and in Mr. Green's ships, where the allowance of bread
is unlimited, nearly a pound and a half of meat is served out daily to each
man. We find, also, on comparing a great number of tables of allowance pro-
duced to us by the Registrar-General of Seamen, that in the merchant service
generally the daily allowance is : — Of salt beef one pound and a half, and of
salt pork one ponnd and a quarter. These tables will be found in the appendix.

" 19. On the whole, we are of opinion that the allowance of both bread and
salt meat should be increased to one pound and a quarter of each daily. At
the same time, as the object of this increase is to give the men a full allowance
of food, and not to enable them to receive a larger sum for savings, we think
that the rate of payment for them should be diminished, and that instead of
2d. a pound being allowed for bread, and 4d. for salt meat, Id. only should
be allowed for the former and 3d. for the latter. The additional annual charge
on account of the increased allowance of bread would be £43,181, and of salt
meat £37,040, making together £80,221 ; against which would have to be
placed the diminished payments on account of savings, which we are informed
would be £37,890, leaving an increase on the annual estimates under this
head of £42,331.

" Clothes, Bedding, and Mess Utensils .

"' 20. We understand also that when men enter your Majesty's service they
.in- furnished with bidding and clothes, the whole value of which is charged
against their future pay. They thus incur a debt to the Crown, and until that
debt has been satisfied can neither allot nor receive that portion of their pay
termed 'monthly allowance.' They have also to provide their mess utensils.
So that for several months from their first entering the men are in difficulties,
and their wives and children too frequently dependent on the parish for sup-
port. To enable the men to commence their service free from debt, we recom-
mend that the bedding and mess Utensils should be issued, as the hammocks
now ate; and that to every man on his first entering for 10 years' continuous
service a suit of clothes should be given gratuitously. This would entail an
additional charge of £14,200 per annum. Great evil is experienced from the
want of the prohibition, which exists in the case of the army, against the pur-
chase of clothes issued to the men. We think that this opportunity should
be taken of placing both services on the same footing.

"Payment of Wages while the Ship is Fitting Out

"21. The witnesses have also stated that great inconveniences result from
the present regulations in regard to the payment of wapes while the ship is
fitting out. We understand, however, that thU subject has recently engaged
the attention of the Admiralty; and that, since this Commission has been sit-
ting, arrangements have been under consideration, with the view of enabling
the seaman to receive his ' monthly allowance,' and to allot a portion of his
wages at an earlier period than he now can. We strongly recommend that
these arrangements should be carried into effect. We think, however, that as
the matter is now under the consideration of the Admiralty, the details of the
measures to be taken should be left to their discretion; and we therefore re-
frain from making any more specific recommendation on the subject,

"Allotments,

" 22. The system of Allotments has been much complained of. Under the
Merchant Shipping Act the only persons who can recover as allottees from the
owners are the wife, the father or mother, the grandfather or grandmother, the
child or grandchild, or the brother or sister of the seaman (17th and 18th
Victoria, cap. 104, see. 169). But in the Royal Navy seamen have the power
of allotting to any persons they please, and we have the evidence of those well
acquainted with the present practice, that allotments are frequently made by
seamen to very undeserving characters, to persons who have no natural claim
whatever upon them, while their families are perhaps compelled to resort to
the parish for relief. The practice in regard to allotments is perfectly satis-
factory to the merchant seamen, and we recommend that it should be adopted
in the Royal Navy.

"Badge Money.

" 23. The preceding remarks apply to the seamen af the Royal Navy gene-
rally, but there is one subject which affects the petty officers, which we beg to

submit fof y.mr Majesty's consideration. Able seaman receive from 1J. to 3-L
a day bad^e money, accor-Jiisg to the number of good conduct badges they have
earned, and this extra ;illo\va'.ice is continued if they are subsequently promo-
ted to be petty officers. But petty oilicers, becoming entitled to a good
conduct badge, receive no extra pay for it. So that a petty officer, who hail
earned three good conduct badges during the time he was an able seaman might
be in the receipt of 3d. a day more than a petty officer having the same cha-
lacter and the same qualifications, who for his good conduct and ability had
been promoted to be a petty officer before he had earned any good conduct
badges. This, we are of opinion, should be remedied, and the s,ime payment,
made for good conduct badges whether earned as able seaman or as petty
officers. This woul-i require ail additional sum of £t>,8o3 per annum.

" Warrant Officers.

" 24. The case of the warrant officers has occupied our attention. It is
the highest grade to which the seaman ordinarily aspires, and to place this
class of officers in the position to which they are entitled will offer an additional
inducement to seamen to enter your Majesty's service. We have received from
the warraut officers a memorial, which will be found in the appendix.

" 25. They complain that the precedence assigned to them on board your
Majesty's ships is not such as they ought to hold. Formerly they ranked next
after second masters, and since 1844 have been placed below the young and
inexperienced cadet, although they are at times required to take charge o( a
watch, and during the late Russian war frequently had charge of mortar and
gun-boats. We recommend that they should rank after second masters.

** 26. They likewise complain that their widows have been deprived of the
pensions to whicu they were formerly entitled. There are few more difficult
subjects than thit of widows' pensions; and, in evidence well worthy of atten-
tion, we have been urged rather to recommend that the sum which these pen-
sions would require should he expanded in improving the position of the offi-
cers themselves. We have no reason, however, to suppose that any general
alteration on the subject of widows' pensions is intended ; and in the present
state of the service we think that the benefits conferred upon the widows of
officers in the higher ranks ought not to be withheld from the widows of sea-
men who have risen by merit through successive stages of promotion to the
rank of warrant officers,. We think that in fairness this payment should be
retrospective. The cost involved is £19,150.

" Promotion of Warrant Officers.

"27. In the circular (No. 121) of the Lords Commissioners of the
Admiralty, dated the 14th of June, 1853, it was stated that, * as a further
mark of their approbation of the merits of this deserving class of officers,
my Lords are pleased to direct that warrant officers of exemplary conduct,
who have distinguished themselves by acts of gallantry and daring in the
sen-ice, be considered eligible to hold commissions in Her Majesty's fleet, in
such rank or position as their Lordships may deem them, after undergoing

an examination, entitled to receive and competent to fill, and all warrant
officers so promoted will be granted respectively the sum of £100 as an
outfit.' We anticipate the best results from the occasional promotion of a
warrant officer to the quarter deck ; at the same time, we are ready to admit-
that the promotion should only be granted for distinguished service combined
with exemplary conduct ; and it should not be limited to the warrant officers,
but should be open, in die case of very signal and extraordinary services,
to any seaman in your Majesty's navy.

" Promotion of Petty Officers.

" 28. There is also a point relating to the promotion of petty officers
which deserves attention. We have been assured that seaman have occa-
sionally refused the warrant in consequence of the expense necessary to
provide a suitable outfit. We think that the principle of giving a gratuity
to a warrant officer on his promotion to the quarter-deck is equally appli-
cable to the case of a petty officer promoted to the warrant. But we under-
stand that since our commission was issued this subject has been reviewed
by the Board of Admiralty, and £15 assigned by a recent order for this
purpose.

"29. Such are the measures which we have ventured to recommend to
your Majesty with reference to the mode of manning the navy in time of
peace. They appear to us the best that can be devised for improving the
condition and raising the character of the seamen in the Royal Navy; and,
aided by frequent visits of vessels of war to the different mercantile ports
of the United Kingdom, will render the service more popular, and tend to
effect the object which we have in view — namely, the speedy and efficient
manning of your Majesty's ships.

"Improvements in the Peace Establishment

1. Increased allowances of provisions ... ... £42,331

2. Pensions of warrant officers' widows ... 19,150

3. Mess utensils, clothes, and bedding ... ... 14,200

4. Instruction and training ships ... ... 15,918

5. Petty officers' badges ... ... ... 6,833

6. Pay and pensions for gunnery ... ... 6,239

104,671

' " Witness <mr hands and seals this I$th day of February, 1859.

« HARDWICKE. (L.S.)

" CHANDOS. (L.S.)

"EDWAKD CARDWELL. (L.S.)

"W. FANSHAWE MARTIN. (L.S.)

"J. D. H. ELPHINSTONE. (L.S.)

"JOHN SHEPHERD. (L.S.)

"RICHARD GREEN. (L.S.)
" H. C. ROTHEEY, Secretary."

P.S. — The remaining part of the Report will not affect the Navy and is
therefore omitted.

Extract from the Report of W. S. Lindsay, Esq., M.P.

It will be urged in objection to my views, that if only a sufficient num-
ber of officers are retained on the active list, so that the whole of them
would be employed in rotation, the number of naval cadets at present in-
troduced into the service, already greatly curtailed, would be necessarily
so reduced that we should be short of midshipmen. This indeed, it is
said, is already the case, and that the duties of the midshipmen are now
performed by warrant officers. I am, however, of opinion that many of the
duties at present performed by midshipmen, might be more satisfactorily
performed if they were made to devolve upon warrant officers specially
trained to them. The warrant officers may be pronounced to be the most
efficient officers on board ships of war. In a memorial addressed to the
Noble Lord the Chairman of this Commission, they complain that 'though
their duties have become more arduous and responsible, they have been re-
duced from the position they formerly held, that many emoluments they
enjoyed are now withheld, and that " the senior warrant officers have no
" reward for war services either by promotion or otherwise." (Memorial^
Nov. 1858.)

I am ol opinion that the claims of these memorialists should be admitted
to a considerable extent, and in acceding to a portion at least of their
demands, I would endeavour to obviate the difficulty of a short supply of
midshipmen. With this view a higher grade of warrant officers might be
established. That superior grade might be made the reward for good ser-
vices, and he might be re-instated, in whole or in part, in that position of
which all warrant officers were dispossessed. The men who attained this
superior grade might perform many of the duties which now devolve upon
midshipmen. This would operate moreover as another inducement to re-
spectable well-educated youths to enter Her Majesty's service.

LIST OF WITNESSES.

Admiral Sir Charles Napier, K.C.B.

Bear-Admiral Alexamlpr Milne.

Rear- Ad. The Et. Hon. Lord Clarence Paget, !
C.B.

The Rt. Hon. Sir James Graham, Bart., M.P. j

Rear-Admiral George Elliot.

Admiral Sir George Seymour, K.C.B.

Commodore Charles Eden, C.B.

Capt. The Hon. S. T. Carnegie, R.N., C.B. \

Captain L. G. Heath, R.N., C.B.

Captain W. R. Mends, R.N., C.B.

Vice-Ad. The Hon. Sir R. S. Dundas, K.C.B. i

Captain J. McNeill Boyd, R.N.

Captain B. J. Sulivan, R.N., C.B.

Captain George Randolph, R.N.

Captain E. P. Charlewood, R.N.

Commander Thomas Heard, R.N.

Captain The Hon. Joseph Denman, R.N.

Sir John Liddell, C.B., M.D., Director-Gen. |
of the Medical Department of the Navy.

Mr. Joseph Allen, Superintendent of the
Halls, Greenwich Hospital

Mr. John Ward Nichoils, R.N,, Secretary,
Greenwich Hospital

Mr. J. L. Jay, Public Secretary to Governor
of Greenwich Hospital

Mr. Thomas Howels, Gunner, R.N.

Robert Hall, Carpenter, R.N.
Richard Jones, Foreman of Riggers, Wool-
wich Dockyard.

George Webber, Boatswain, R.N.
James Uffen, Boatswain, R.N.
Js. Garden, Boatswain, Portsmouth Dockyard
George Lumb, Gunner, R.N.
Mr. William Smith, Boatswain, R.N., Pem^

broke Yard

John Donelly, Seaman Rigger, R.N.
Joseph Burney, Seaman Rigger
"William Peachey, Boatswain's Mate
Hy. Butler, Leading man of Seamen Eiggers
Commander J. H. Brown, R.N., Registrar-
General of Seamen

Captain Geo. Pierce. R.N., Shipping Master
Com. Henry Pengelly, R.N., Shipping M aster
Mr. John Howe Brown, Shipping Master
Mr. George Dunlop, Shipping Master
Mr. J. T. Tpwson, Secretary to Local Marine
Board, Liverpool

Mr. Richard Ainley, Shipping Master
Mr. Conrad H. Greenhow, Shipping Master
Mr. Robert Jobling, Shipping Master
Mr. Henry Corlass, Shipping Master
Mr. John Lambton, Shipping Master
Mr. Robert Crawford, Shipping Master
Mr. John Mcllvain, Shipping Master
J. R. Engledue, Esq., Superintendent of
Peninsular & Oriential Steam Navigation
Company
William Vincent, Esq., Superintendent of

Royal Mail Steam Packet Company
Captain Harris, R.N.
Captain R. S. Hewlett, R.N., C.B.
Captain G. W. Preedy, R.N.
Commander Bickford, R.N.
Captain Gambier, R.N.
Commander C. A. Johnston, R.N.
Mr R. P. Chaplin, Pay Clerk, Portsmouth

Dockyard

Serjeant Bobbins, Pay Serjt., Royal Marines
Mr. Anthony Trail, Shipping Master
Mr. Arthur Stewart, Collector of Customs
Com. J. Thompson, R.N., Shipping Master
Mr. Frederick Johns, Shipping Master
Mr. H. H. Peters, Shipping Master
Mr. W. Peake, Collector of Customs
Mr. J. Mackenzie, Collector of Customs
Mr. Redpath, Collector of Customs
Rear Admiral Sir Thomas Maitland, C.B.
C. H. Pennell, Esq., Chief Clerk, Admiralty
Charles Richards, Esq., R.N., Comptroller of

Victualling and Transport Services
Mr. W. Hickman, Paymaster, R.N.
Captain W. H. Walker, of the Board of Trade
Mr. Moodyr Assistant Master Shipwright,

Portsmouth Dockyard
Mr. William Penibld, Accountant, Woolwich

Dockyard
E. R. Williams, Esq., Accountant of the

Board of Trade

T. H. Farrer, Esq., Assistant Secretary to
the Marine Department of the Board of
Trade

The Right Hon. Sir Thomas Freemantle,
Bart., Chairman of the Board of Customs
Sir R. M. Bromley, K.C.B., Accountant
General of the Navy

Extracts from the Evidence taken before the Royal Com-
mission for Manning the Navy, 1858 — 9.

Admiral Sir Charles Napier.

I believe that if we increase the pay of the petty officers very consider-
ably, and I would go so far as to give the first-class petty officers £4 a
month, and the second class £3 a month ; I would raise them in their own
estimation, they should always be petty officers, and I would insert their
names in the Naval List, that would flatter them, and raise them in their
own estimation, and they would be more respected by the ship's company,
and would do their duty I think better, and be paid for their responsibility ;
and I have not the smallest doubt that they would feel themselves in a
higher situation than they are, and be looked up to by the men; I would
go further, and open the situation of mate to them, which is now enjoyed
\)y the midshipmen ; a midshipman passes his examination after six years
and becomes a mate, and has duties to attend to which the old masters'
mates formerly did. We have now the mate of the hold, the mate of the
lower deck, the mate of this and the mate of that, and I believe the duty
would be better done by a petty officer who should be raised to that situa-
tion ; I would allow him to look forward to getting promotion the same as
a boatswain or a gunner does. I believe a boatswain can be made a
lieutenant, and so can a gunner; I would allow the mates to be made
lieutenants, although the prospect is far off.

Earl of Hardivicke to Lord Clarence Pagtt.

6>>8. (Chairman.} Would you advise any further change in the discipline
of the navy, which, while it maintained its efficiency, tended to render the
^ervice more popular with the seamen in the merchant service? — I think
that we might hold out some inducements by improving the commission of
the warrant officers. Their widows have no pension ; the pension was
taken away from them, and I think it is a very great grievance ; I have
received communications from them, which prove that it has taken a great
hold upon their minds ; I have received a printed circular from them in
which they grievously complain that the widows' pension was taken away
from them ; and moreover, that, although the Admiralty held out to them
that they should occasionally have lieutenant's commission granted to them,
there is no instance in which any one of them has been so promoted. I
will read an extract from an Admiralty circular of 1853 in reference to
the warrant officers: — "As a further mark of their approbation of the
" services of this deserving class of officers, my Lords are pleased to direct
" that warrant officers of exemplary conduct who have distinguished them-
" selves by acts of gallantry and daring in the service, be considered
" eligible to hold commissions in Her Majesty's fleet, in such rank or
" position as their Lordships may deem them, after undergoing an exami-
" nation, entitled to receive and competent to fill. And all warrant officers
" so promoted will be granted respectively the sum of £100 as an outfit.'"
That has not been carried out in any one instance ; and I think it would
be a great boon, and it would go like wildfire through the service, if my

Lords did occasionally give a commission and outfit to a warrant officer,
I am bound to say that I have had several under my command who were
perfectly fit to associate with gentlemen and to perform the duties of com-
missioned officers ; and I should think that their widows' pensions ought
to be restored to them.

639. (Mr. Shepherd.} Did you ever recommend one of those men to
the Admiralty for a commission ?— No, I have not ; for no opportunity
occurred in the ship I commanded, since this circular was issued, for which
I was empowered to recommend a warrant officer for an act of gallantry or
daring.

640. ( Chairman.) You are aware I presume that it would require an
order in council to promote a warrant officer to be a lieutenant ? — No, I
am not.

641. Are you not aware that it is contrary to the rules of the service? —
I presume that it must be competent to the Admiralty to give them com-
missions.

642. Have the Admiralty at present the power of raising a warrant
officer to be a lieutenant, or even a master to be a lieutenant ? — I believe
the Admiralty can give a warrant officer a commission.

Earl ofHardwicke to Commodore Henry Eden, C.B.

1353. (Chairman.) With reference to the service generally, have you"
any suggestions to make which in your opinion would tend to an improve-
ment in the service, with reference to the seamen or the warrant officers ? —
I have. I think one of the most advantageous things to the naval service
would be to restore the warrant officer's widows pensions, which I think
were most unjustly taken away from them some years ago.

1355 Qould you suggest anything with reference to promotion and
raising the seamen to a higher rank? — I think that where a warrant officer
distinguishes himself by any conspicuous gallantry, it would be a good
thing if they were occasionally promoted to the rank of lieutenant.

1356. Is there any bar in the service to the promotion of any man to
the rank of lieutenant or even admiral? — I believe none, but within the
last 20 or 30 years I believe no man has received the promotion.

1357. Have you not known in the service many officers who have risen
from common seamen ? — They have not risen within the last 20 or 30
years ; there were several.

1358. May it not be presumed that that has been caused by their not
having been occasions in which a man has sufficiently distinguished himself
to deserve to be raised to that rank, and not from any rule in the service?
— It may be so.

1359. Were you ever acquainted with a Captain Askew in the service?
— I knew him.

1360. Are you aware that he was the late Sir Joseph Yorke's coxswain?
—I was not aware of that fact.

1361. Are you aware that Captain Coglan rose from the ranks? — Yes,
I am aware of that.

1362. You are aware that there is no bar to a man rising to be an ad-
miral in the profession, let him be who he may ?— -I am not aware that
there js any bar.

1363. Have you anything further to recommend except with reference
to the widows of warrant officers, whose pensions you think should be
restored to them ? — I think not.

1365. (Mr. Lindsay.) Have you calculated, when you recommend that
the pensions to the widows of warrant officers should be restored, what cost
that would be to the country ? — I only looked to the justice of the case.

1368. You recommend that a warrant officer should rise for distin-
guished service, and be occasionally promoted to the rank of lieutenant? —
Yes.

1369. I suppose when you say that, you would not bar them from any
further promotion? — No: once a lieutenant, he may rise to any lank.

1386. (Sir James Elphinstone.) "Warrant officers widows were deprived
of their pensions in 1830? — Yes.

1387. Warrant officers received an augmentation of pay at that time,
did they not? — Not then, but afterwards. I think in 1853.

1388. Some allowance was made, was there not, with a view to their
insuring their lives? — Yes.

1389. I suppose, practically, that no insurance office would take such
lives ? — I think that a boatswain, going to the Coast of Africa, would find
a difficulty in insuring his life at any office.

1390. You consider it a great hardship, do you not, that the widows
were deprived of their pensions? — Yes.

1391. Do you think they ought to be restored to them? — -Yes.

Captain W. It. Mends, C.B.

I think the warrant officers are deserving of every possible consideration.
Their rise into position is great, but the change generally plunges them into
debt and difficulty; that has been partly remedied, by a bonus being given
— a sum of money. Their pay was augmented a short time ago, in ex-
change for pensions to their widows ; and they were urged to insure their
lives ; but the warrant officer is at a disadvantage with his neighbour, in
the fact that all the insurance companies make a seagoing man pay a
higher premium. Many good men decline warrants because the advanta-
ges are not equal to the responsibilities. I think the service would be
benefited if the present pay were continued and the pensions to the widows
restored. They are a class of men who never quit the ship, are exposed
to all climates, and from being constantly on deck are liable to frequent
accident. I cannot say too much for the class.

1885. (Chairman.) Are you aware of the cause that led to the with-
drawal of the pensions to the widows of warrant officers ? — No, unless it
were on account of giving them an increase of present pay.

1886. You are not then aware that the warrant officer, being enabled to
pension his widow, always took care to marry a young lady just before he
died ? — I have heard of that.

1887. Do you know of anything that could be done to remedy any grie-
vance of which the warrant officers complain ? — I think it would be a great
thing to do something ; they are a very exemplary body of men as a class,

1888. ( Mr. Lindsay.) Do you not think if we were to go back to the
system of pensioning the widows of warrant officers there should be some

Restriction or condition, such as that the man should have been married
for a certain number of years before his widow could be entitled to the
pension ? — Yes.

1889. What number of years should you say? — From eight to ten years.

1890. (Commodore SliepJierd^) And marrying under a certain age? — Yes.

Captain J. McNeill Boyd, R.N.

I think that the promotion of warrant officers to the rank of lieutenant for
distinguished conduct, the restoration of widows' pensions, and the privilege
of nominating a son to Greenwich, would be a great inducement for promising
young men to cling to the navy, and accept the warrant. At present, many
very eligible petty officers decline the warrant. The pension g»es far in
enabling a warrant officer to marry well. I attach great value to the good
effects of encouraging the men to marry well. A commanding officer may
manage the men very much through the agency of the respectable women.
Courts-martial on warrant officers have been more frequent since the with-
drawal of the widows' pension* Either the wives have not the same influence
as heretofore^ or these officers have made in some cases inferior connexions.

Captain Hon. Joseph Denman, R.N'.

In the navy, the highest rank practically open to a seaman is that of war-
rant officer. The pay is good, £86 to £120 per annum, and the retirement
When superannuated liberal, except as regards the reduced amount allowed
for harbour service. The long time warrant officers are kept at harbour ser-
vice is felt as a great grievance, and the country suffers in their loss of
practice. During peace, extra warrant officers might be employed in large
ships, with great advantage. Pensions are granted to the widows of all
officers, excepting only to those of warrant officers -f, which were taken away in
1830, because it was ascertained that some widows of warrant officers were
living loose lives at the seaports. This measure has been considered not only
as a most serious loss, but as a reproach, and is naturally felt by this invalu-
able class of officers as a blow to their dearest affections. The effect of the
withdrawal of the widows' pension has been 10 cause the promotion to a war-
rant officer to be by no means generally sought for by our best men.

The vital importance of maintaining the value of the highest prize we offer
to the seamen of the navy, is superior to the question whether this pension
may not have been sometimes ill bestowed. The progress of this class in tlie
social scale has been great, and the wives of warrant officers at the present
moment are in general highly respectable. After an interval of 22 years,
some addition to their pay was granted at the recommendation of the Manning
Committee in order to enable them to insure their lives, or to save for the
support of their families at their death. But how can a warrant officer save
out of £86 a year sufficient to make a provision for his wife and children ?
Or, ordered to China or the Coast of Africa, how is he to maintain a life insu-
rance, the premium of which will of course largely increase when he is serving
in unhealty climates. Every argument of sound policy urges a liberal treat-
ment of warrant officers. The restoration of this pension without reducing
the pay — the elevation of the class by treating them with more distinction—

together with the promotion of a certain number to gunners, boatswains, and
carpenters, ^ of the Fleet" to serve in flagships, and to rank after lieutenants,
would raise the value of the position and cause it to be anxiously sought for.
Exceptional cases of extraordinary merit should for the sake of the general
effect, be taken advantage of to promote warrant officers to the active list of
lieutenants. This is now contemplated by a Circular, but has never yet been
done. These measures would effect the great desideratum of making the
prize of promotion to a warrant, anxiously Sought for. If the position of
warrant officers were thus improved, it would not, however, suffice for the
objects referred to. The number is too few, and the prospect therefore too
remote, to have any very strong general effect in attracting men, and it is
most desirable to establish a rating equal to the situation of junior mates of
merchant ships.

Mr. Cardwell to Mr. Robert Hall, Carpenter.

3314. I believe you signed the paper that bears Mr. Howels' signature?—
Yes.

Admiral Shepherd to Mr. George Webber, Boatswain.

3335. Have you anything to say with respect to the treatment of the sea-
men?— Yes; there are many grievances in a man-of-war respecting the bum-
boat people; they come on board the ship, and remain all day, while the
friends of the seamen are only allowed on board at meal times. That is one
grievance. Then there is the continuous service, the time that they enter for
is long, and when the ship comes home they like to have the choice of joining
a ship ; they are sent sometimes to the guard-ship in port, and if no vessel
wants the men they are then drafted round to other ports. Again, in the
lower deck, if a man commits himself in the mess, the whole mess are punished
for that one man, and that is another grievance.

3336. Does anything else occur to you? — No, except I think, as to the
bread, there is not enough while in harbour on fresh meat, a pound is not
enough for two meals

3337. (Mr. Cardwell.) You have signed this paper, have you not? — Yes.

3338. l)o you agree with its contents? — Yes.

3339. Have you anything to add with regard to the warrant and petty
officers? — No; I am satisfied with what is on that paper.

Mr. Cardwell to Mr. J. Utfen, Boatswain.

3362. You signed this paper, I believe? — Yes.

3363. You entirely agree with the contents of it? — Tes,

3364. Have you anything to add to it? — Nothing.

Mr. Cardwell to Mr. James Garden, Master Rigger.

3374. I believe you signed this paper? — Yes.

3375. Therefore you agree with the contents of it? — Yes.

3381. (Mr. Cardwell.) In that respect you would add to the strictness of
discipline and not diminish it? — I would, but it must be remembered that th*

seaman is now better educated, and there is a difference again, and no officer
must expect to treat him otherwise than as a rational being, and if he will
not do his duty on that, I think it should be fully carried out, and that he
should be made to do it.

3382. (Admiral Shepherd.) You can state from your own knowledge that
the seamen of Her Majesty's fleet are now treated kindly and considerately? —
I think so ; I do not think that a man has any reason to complain that he is
ill treated. There are a few evils spoken of, and I think, if they are remedied,
you do every thing for the sailor's comfort in every way, and then make him
do the rest. He should do his duty, and he is bound to do his work tor the
country, that he is paid for, as much as any other person, and it becomes the
powers above him to see that he has what he wants.

Admiral Shepherd to Mr. George Lumb, Gunner.

3383. Will you state what your opinions are? — I concur very much with
all that has been expressed: first, with reference to the provisions, the bread,
I think, should be increased a proportion, and that proportion I leave to the
Commissioners. As far as the treatment of the seamen goes, I have had a
great deal of pratice for the last dozen years, with newly raised men, and with
the old established sailors, and I concur quite fully with Mr. Garden's views.
I think it is a false philanthropy, showing all kindness to sailors, for they will
turn round upon you and treat you with impunity ; but this does not come to
the captain's ears, but to the subordinate officers, I have laboured under it
myself, and I have remonstrated, and said, " Why is not the man punished,
"to give me satisfaction, as an officer, getting my duty performed?'* " Oh,
" I do not like making these complaints." These are the principal things
that are the cause of one- half our young men leaving the service and returning
to it again, and then leaving it again. They have treated the men so kindly ;
if they transgress, the case is not reported to the captain, and they turn round
and treat you with impunity, and I have been a sufferer in consequence of
the discipline of the ship not being kept up.

3384. You would rather complain of slackness and not strictness of disci-
pline?— Yes; it is not so strict. Since they knocked off with corporal pun-
ishment to the extent that they have done, discipline has gone to the dogs.

3385. (Mr. Cardwell.) I believe you have signed this paper? — Yes;
and I have the welfare of the seamen and petty officers at heart. I rose from
them, and I do not like to see the case abused.

3386. With regard to this paper, may we take it that you entirely agree
with it?— Yes.

3393. With regard to the warrant and petty officers you agree entirely in
the statements in this paper, and subject to this paper you consider that the
warrant and petty officers are in a satisfactory position? — The petty officers,
not the warrant officers.

3394. Exeept for what is stated in this paper? — Yes.

3395. Then, with regard to the warrant officers, you wish what this paper
contains to be carried into effect? — At the discretion of the Commissioners.

3396. With regard to the petty officers you are satisfied? — There is one
more sore place with regard to them,, and that is the petty officer who earns

his service at the peril of his life, and serves the whole of his time at sea — he
does not see the reason why he should be put off with from Is. 6d. to Is. 7d. a
day, and that a Serjeant of marines should have 2s. a day, a man who has done
his duties in the barrack ground,

Earl of Hardwire to Mr. W. Smith, Boatswain.

3400. (Chairman.) You are a boatswain ? — I am the boatswain of Pembroke
dockyard.

3401. I believe you signed the paper addressed to me by the warrant
officers headed by Thomas HowelsF — I did sign one paper.

3402. You signed the paper addressed to "The "Earl of Hardwicke, Chair-
man of the commission for Manning the Navy," setting forth certain grievan-
ces, of which the warrant officers complain, did you notF — Yes.

3403. Have you anything to add to that statement, or do you agree with
the first proposition, that you suffer inconvenience from the loss of the rank
which you held before in the service, and that you are now placed next to a
cadet, instead of after the second master? — Yes. I have been many times
very much annoyed, in carrying out my duties in a ship, by the young gentle-
men, and one or two instances I can name; one was when as boatswain of a
ship I had to attend in getting the cock- pit hammocks up, and I have been
told by the young gentlemen when I have said I would lower them down if
they did not get up. that they were my superior officers. I have been told so
when they have had the charge of the forecastle, when they have been doing
duty on the forecastle, as mates of the forecastle; If I have hailed the top or
the foreyard, I have been told by the midshipman, that he was the officer of
the forecastle,

3404. (Mr. Green.) Was that a midshipman or a naval cadet? — A mid-
shipman, the son of an admiral, I believe now in the service, and had it not
been that the father knew me very well and supported me, I should probably
have got into trouble.

3405 You are desirous to be placed now, in point of rank, next to the
second master? — I think that the warrant officers being placed next to the
second master would place them in a good position to rank with them.

3406. Are you of opinion that the size of the ships has entailed upon
the warrant officers and boatswains a heavier charge? —Yes, there is no
doubt about it ; the ships have all increased and the stores are more.

3407. The loss of rank is also a loss of prize-money, and check-money,
and other advantages in war, is it not? — Yes, there is no doubt of it,
my lord.

3408. Do you also consider that the pay of the other officers has in-
creased, while the pay of the warrant officers has been kept stationary?
—The pay has been increased, but from what I understand of the pay
of the different classes, the warrant officers have not received their pro-
portion.

3409. Have you any suggestion to make in reference to the pay, or
what you consider would place you in a position of proportionate advan-
tage with other officers? — Individually I should say, that if the pay of
the third-class officers was equal to the old first-class pay — that is in
1795 — it would be better. We find the pay very small to keep a sepa-

rate mess, and to appear respectably and to provide ourselves with a
decent quantity of linen, that is necessary for a long voyage, without
being compelled to have them scrubbed by the seamen.

3410. Do the warrant officers now mess together? — I believe not; I
have been out of a man-of-war for many years, but I believe it would
be very advantageous, if they had a mess place, particularly in hot wea-
ther. If they could mess together, and any small place were allotted to
them, there is no doubt that it would be agreeable, and having a proper
servant to attend upon them, not a second-class boy who has just come
into the service.

3411. You think it would be a great advantage if the warrant officers
messed together? — Yes.

3412. Do you think that if one of the cabins was increased in size,
that would enable an arrangement of that sort to be made? — I think it
would be a great convenience for the warrant officers to have one cabin
in addition to mess in; they are usually married men, and if they come
into harbour, they cannot go on shore like the other officers. I never went
out of the ship in my life, or I will not say never, but I never made a
practice of it, I always found that I had enough to look after in after
hours when the men were gone; you have little accounts to make up in
the evening, or probably one wants to go to bed.

3413. You are a boatswain of a dockyard, can you suggest anything
with reference to the position of the boatswains of dockyards that would
be an improvement in their condition? — If I look back, the boatswains
have received no increase of pay with the first-class boatswains.

3414. The letter states that the pay of the boatswain of a dockyard
has been decreased £50 a year? — I think so; it used to be .£250 a year,
it is now £200, and the boatswain of a dockyard must have a servant or
some one to provide his meals, and a room for that servant, and fire, for he
cannot conveniently go out to call the servant, or sit down with the servant.

3415. The boatswain of a dockyard has a residence in the yard? —
Yes, generally; I have a residence just outside the yard.

3416. Are you allowed coal and candle? — No; some chips, which all
the officers resident are allowed.

3417. (Admiral Shepherd.) You mean to say that you have an allow-
ance for a house outside ? — No, I am allowed a house in addition to my

pay-

3418. You do not pay the rent of the house? — No; I believe the
scale for the warrant officers, that they are allowed, is 6d. a day for
lodging money, Is. 6d. altogether, or something of that sort.

3419. (Chairman.) Have you any perquisites at all from the dock-
yard ? — None, and I have to attend at all hours.

3420. No fuel ?— Some chips ; some are allowed every six weeks, that
has been a new regulation, that is the only thing.

3421. (Admiral Shepherd.) You are allowed the same quantity of chips
that the superintendent is allowed ? — Yes.

3422. (Mr. Green.) How long will they last?— They do for lighting
fires, and they last probably six weeks.

3423. (Chairman.) I believe that which is felt to be the greatest hard-
ship in your positions is the loss of the pensions to your widows ? — It is,
that is the great cry.

3424. Do you think that that has an effect upon the minds of the sea-
men?— I am quite sure it has in many instances that I have known. I
know from my own father. He served for about 40 years in the navy,
and he never would have taken the warrant only for that, as he would
have been entitled 14 years before to the same pension that he received
14 years after, but at that time the warrant officers' wives were allowed an
annuity, and having a very large family, it induced him to accept the war-
rant, though he had been offered it many times before and refused, but
the pay was too small, and he often said he could not support his family
to keep a position of respectability.

3425. Have you ever known excellent seamen refuse a warrant ? — I
have known it, and there is one now, I believe here, who was with me
as captain of a top when I was boatswain of the " Winchester," Mr.
Lane, and it was a great difficulty to get him to take the warrant; he was
a very good man, and I told the commander that I thought so, and that
he would do justice to the duties and make a good officer.

3426. (3/7-. Green.) Did he accept the warrant? — He did after a great
deal of persuasion, but at first he refused on account of the pay being
too small. He said, "No, I do not think I shall remain by the service,"
but I persuaded him and said, that I thought there was nothing like a
man-of-war for cleanliness and discipline, that there was nothing like it.

3427. You never knew a man positively refuse it? —Yes, I have known
men positively refuse it, they would not take it.

3428. (Chairman.) Do you think that they were influenced more by
the loss of the pension to the widow than by anything else? — I do not
believe that many of them perfectly understood it at the time, but I
think it would be a great inducement for good men to accept it, if this
was held out to them, it is so universally known now. I think there
are ten to one sailors married now to what there were in my young days,
they have more leave I suppose.

£ 3429. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) Is the class of women to whom they get
married improved ? — There is no doubt about it, very much ; they are
not at all of the same race, for many reasons that I know of. x When •
first I was a seaman, the first ship I was in, I was nearly four years in
the East Indies ; and when we came home the women were allowed on
board the ship, and scenes took place, intimacies were fonflgd between
them, and frequently they were married afterwards. < Wow7if~tEe~nien "'
get leave, they are generally steady; there may be a solitary case, but
they are generally more acquainted with respectable families.

3430. The rule now with them is more to get acquainted with decent

I girls? — Yes, generally speaking. We seldom hear of anything of the
sort now, not with the respectable men. I have known many, and I
have taken the "trouble to inquire of late years, but there is no doubt
there was a great deal of it in former times.
3431. There is a great improvement, is there not, in the streets of
seaport towns ? — Yes. They have not the money in the first place. They
are paid, and get leave on shore; and they are not so wild, and they are
now of very much better habits. Sailors are not tormented, as they
were in my time ; they are not harassed so much.
3432. They are treated more like rational men?— They are, indeed.

3433. (Chairman.) You think that the mode of paying the seamen in
small sums, instead of giving him a large sum of money at the close of
his service, is a great advantage to the man ? — I do. I think there was
too large a sum paid.

3434. Payments from time to time, instead of paying a gross amount
at the end of the man's servitude, have been a great benefit to the sailor
in a moral point of view? — Yes.

3435. There is less temptation to the sharks and prostitutes to assail
him than there was before? — Most certainly; they have an opportunity
frequently of going on shore, and when they find that, they generally
take care of their money, saying, "I shall have another opportunity of
"going again, I must take care of some of this."

3436. C Mr. Green.) The seamen are better educated now, are they
not, than formerly? — Yes.

3437. Most of them can write their names? — Yes, and, indeed, some
can work navigation. I have known plenty of them that could work a
day's work.

3488. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) They have the means now of improving
themselves? — Yes, by the seamen's schoolmaster, and particularly the
young men who are brought up in the service.

3439. They get a good education on board the brigs? — Yes, and they
often pursue it on board. In the last ship that I was in. the "Superb,"
v,*hen she was in commission, we had boys come on board as apprentices,
and they were paid off as able seamen; they then joined a sloop-of-war,
with Captain Hamilton, in the "Vestal," he was an old shipmate of
mine, and he asked me if I could recommend these brig's lads for his
ship, and he gave them second-class petty officers' ratings, and they
turned out very smart lads.

3400. (Chairman.) Do you think that the improvement in the mind
of the seaman, such as you have described, has militated against that
daring, dashing activity, which always exhibits itself in the naval ser-
vice?— No, I do not. No doubt you must forgive a sailor his little
eccentricities ashore, and his little whims, because if he was a far-seeing,
deep- thinking man, there are many of those daring acts, such as jump-
ing into a boat when there is a man overboard, that he would not do if
he was a thoughtful man.

3441. (Mr. Green.) Then how do you account for the officer jumping
into the boat first? — An officer will always do that to lead the others.
I have jumped into a boat myself.

3442. (Chairman.) Are you of opinion that there is as much appear-
ance of discipline, and of proper order, among the seamen in performing
the duties of a man-of-war as there was before their minds were so much
improved ? — I should say, certainly, yes.

3443. Then I infer from that, that you think that Her Majesty's ships
are, generally speaking, in as high a state of discipline as they were
formerly? — Not on their first commission, because there are not the
seamen now to be had ; but about 1846 I should speak of, when I think
it was generally considered it was a good navy, about the time of the
squadron being in Lisbon. But when they were paid off there were no
ships fitting out; and lots of men came to me, to recommend them simply
to take a seaman's rating, and many men left and went out to different

countries, simply for their provisions, with no pay. I happened to know
one of the captains in a merchant ship, who had taken some of these
men, and he told me of one or two men that I recommended to him, and
said that he certainly should give the men something at the end of the
voyage, but he was not bound to do so. They were some men paid off
from the "Canopus."

3444. I see, by the petition, in addition to the points I have stated,
that there is a complaint made in reference to wounds and hurts, that
the scale does not meet the views of the warrant officers; what would be
your position suppose you were badly wounded and lost an arm? — I
never knew, and it is a question that has been asked. It appears quite
a mystery.

3445. The paper states, that the " warrant officers receiving wounds
" or hurts, and still fit to serve, were formerly allowed a pension accord-
" ing to the nature of the injury. This is nearly wholly abolished, nor
" is any additional sum granted for the same when superannuated ;"
are you aware that that is the case ? — No.

3446. Then the paper states that there are " no rewards for war ser-
" vice?" — I received a hurt myself, and got a certificate from the surgeon.

3447. Did you receive any money? — No.

3418. Was the hurt of a serious nature? — Yes; and I shall suffer
from it as long as I live. It was done in an act of duty, and I had the
surgeon's certificate. I received the injury in the execution of my duty,
and it interferes with me at any time when I am suffering from wets or
colds, or after any undue exertion.

3449. For that, you have never received any remuneration? — None.

3450. Do you suffer from this hurt now? — Yes; I always suffer from
it, and it is very troublesome.

3451. I perceive there is a complaint made also that there is "no
" promotion," and " no rewards for war service." Do you mean by that
there is no promotion above the rank of a warrant officer?— That there
is no promotion for the first-class officers, although a man might have
been ten years or twelve years a first-class warrant officer; but we have
no rewards held out to us, and many were in the last war.

3452. There is a minute contained in an Admiralty circular, which
does hold out a prospect of promotion to the first-class warrant officers;
have you never seen that? — Yes; I have seen it.

3453. Has that minute ever been acted upon? — I never heard of it.
I have been informed by some of the officers that their captains have
recommended them. I know one that I can speak of, that I know
positively. I think Mr. Spry, a gunner, told me so.

3454. He was recommended by his captain for promotion? — Yes.

3455. (Mr. Green.) Would he accept it, if it was offered to him? — I
do not know; he would not be aware of what he would get, but he would
have been proud of something, being a first-class officer, and serving in
the war. I was in the dockyard at Plymouth at the time. He was a
boy with me on different stations. He joined the navy, as a second-
class boy, the same as I did, about the same time.

3456. (Chairman.) The last request made in this document is that the
boatswains of the royal navy may be exempted from inflicting corporal
punishment, do you agree with that? — Most heartily. 1 have heartily

prayed for it. It is one of the greatest degradations to an officer to have
to pull off his coat, in the midst of a ship's company, to inilict punish-
ment. I have known many men, and good men, that I have been in-
clined to recommend, and I have asked the commander or the first lieu-
tenant to intercede with the captain to get them rated as boatswain's
mates, but they have refused for that very reason, to be made boat-
swain's mates.

3457. Although it is a very painful duty for any man to inflict cor-
poral punishment upon another, do you think that the service could be
carried on without corporal punishment? — My opinion is, that there
requires some very severe and strict punishment for cases that occur on
board a man-of-war.

3458. Should you like, being yourself a real seaman, being liable to
be called upon to perform the active duties of a seaman to serve in a
man-of-war, where corporal punishment was abolished ? — I am quite sure
that it requires some punishment that would deter some desperate cha-
racters that there are.

3459. Therefore, as you consider that some very severe punishment
is necessary to be inflicted in the service — judiciously applied, of course
— the duty of the infliction of that description of punishment must fall
upon somebody? — Yes.

3460. Would it not be likely that all men would object upon the same
ground to inflict this description of punishment as well as the boatswain's
mate? — I think not; I think the police of the ship, for instance; we
know from experience that the drummers in the army inflict the punish-
ments, and there are very few officers who do not consider themselves
superior to drummers ; but from what I have seen, I have never known
the ship's corporal or the man in that position, seldom hesitate to
carry out an order, such as lashing a man, or gagging him, if he is a
noisy, quarrelsome fellow that was alarming the whole ship.

3461. I do not perceive the difference in the minds of the ship's cor-
poral or the boatswain's mate? — No; but he sees this position before him.

3462. The boatswain's mate sees this position before him? — Yes, and
then he will not take it.

3463. Do you mean to assert that the seamen now all refuse to take
rating of boatswains' mates, from the fact that they are obliged to inflict
corporal punishment ?— I have known solitary cases of it.

3464. {Should you object to inflict corporal punishment, as a boatswain,
under any circumstances ? — If it was possible that I could refuse.

3465. Supposing that the boatswain, and all the boatswains' mates, re-
fused to inflict corporal punishment at once, when called upon to perform
it on the quarter-deck, what would be the position of that ship? — Very bad.

3466. Suppose the captain called upon the officers to perform it, as it
requires muscular strength to perform it, would it be right that the war-
rant officer should refuse? — Certainly not, in that case.

3467. Then you would have no objection to inflict corporal punish-
ment if there was a mutinous attempt on the part of the boatswains'
mates or any other men, to refuse to perform it ? — Certainly not, under
those circumstances.

3468. You would see no objection to periorming that unpleasant duty,
provided necessity obliged you to do it? — In case the discipline of the

ship was in danger, as an officer I should think I was bound to do anything
I was ordered by the commanding officer.

3469. From what body of men are the ship's corporals generally taken?
Are they not seamen ? — Not generally.

3470. What have they been before in life, generally speaking ? — They
have been bandsmen ; some are servants. The master-at-arms has usually
been in the army, or rather in the marines. At least, a great number of
them have been ; and many of them have been stewards. They have had
a little education, enough to keep books and accounts.

3471. Do you think generally speaking that they could perform that
duty ? — Quite so ; they are strong men, and men who have not generally
suffered from wets and colds, or exposure, except those that have been
taken from the marines.

3472. Have you ever heard this question put to that class of men, whe-
ther they would be likely to take the same line of objection to it that you
do ?— No.

3473. Do you think that they would not? — I do not know, but I have
seen them do so when the boys were to be caned. It was a very common case,
if a boy disobeyed, or was insolent, he was caned, and in many cases that
acted beneficially to the service in some cases where it was slightly used.

3474. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) Generally with regard to punishments, you
think it would be an inducement to good men to look forward to the
position of boatswain, if they were relieved from the necessity of inflicting
corporal punishments ? — I do.

3475. You think that the discipline of the ship would not suffer at all,
and the punishment would be inflicted in the proper manner, if that duty
were to devolve upon the police of the ship ? — I believe that that is the
prevailing opinion.

3476. With regard to the boys, is it a good thing for them to be allow-
ed to act as servants ? — I think you cannot do away with them unless you
introduce some ordinary seamen, or landsmen.

3477. Would it not be better to have servants to do the duty of servants
alone, and not to take boys who expect to come into the service as seamen ?
— Quite so.

3478. You think that it would be better, if they were not employed as
servants at all, ii suitable substitutes could be obtained? — Yes.

3479. I understood you to say that your pay had been reduced, and
your responsibility increased, is that so ? — Yes.

3480. You have a larger amount of stores, and more valuable property
under your care now than you had before? — As boatswain of a dockyard
my pay has been decreased, it is not so much as it was.

3481. But the property you have charge of in the dockyard has increa-
sed in value? — Very much.

3482. You are the boatswain of a dockyard, what do you think of the
propriety of putting men into hulks, do you think that system is a good
one, when fitting out a ship ? — No.

3483. Is there not very great loss of time in the men proceeding back-
wards and forwards to their work ? — I have known times when we could
not get to the ships to dinner, I have been fitting out at Portsmouth, which
is a small harbour, and I could not get from the yards to one of the hulks

opposite, and it takes place more frequently at Devonport. It is the only
harbour where I have been doing duty in a dockyard, and I have had fre-
quently to go ashore to assist in securing ships in the basin, or striking
her spars when they have been rigged in the basin.

3484. A great number of the men belonging to these ships, commonly,
are very short of clothes, are they not ? — They are.

3485. In going to and fro from these hulks, they are exposed and get
wet through, and they have no change of clothing? — They are just as they
stand upright; many of these are long -shore men, they are not seamen,
scarcely any of them, and they have no more than one suit, and they go on
shore, and probably get wet, and remain so the whole day, shivering, so
that we could not get them to work.

3480. The effect is eventually to put them on to the doctor's list? — Yes.

8487. Do you think, if suitable clothing were issued to the men on join-
ing, and that the payment for the clothing was spread over the first three
years of their commission, the men would object to it ? — No.

3488. Would it be a relief to them ? — I think it should not be compul-
sory upon them to take the clothing ; I know that very many seamen do
not like the cut of the purser's rig.

3489. If a seaman was short of clothes, or had none of a decent kind, he
would not object to receiving old clothing, in the way I have suggested, nor
to pay for it in the way I have pointed out? — They would be very glad to
get it, instead of getting it as they do now, and paying twice its value. They
go to a tailor who is always ready to supply them, arid will serve them with
a frock, or trousers, and charge them twice their value.

3490. Do jou think that, if they received clothes in the way spoken of,
it would operate to prevent desertion? — I do not think it would make any
difference.

3491. Do you think that by an improvement in the police, desertion
might be prevented, and that in that way the Government would not lose
money ? — Very little ; the value of the serge frock and trousers would be
soon paid for, and a pair of shoes. This class of men seldom desert until
they get well filled, and they remain some time ; they are generally hungry
when they come, and they eat the allowance of all those good men who
have a house and friends on shore.

3492. If they were well clothed, that would be another inducement for
them to remain ? — I think so.

3493. Is it not a great hardship, at present, that the men are not able to
allot any money to their wives ? — Yes, I have heard very many times
complaints of that.

3494. Do you think that, if a man received his pay weekly, on joining
a ship, it would meet the difficulty? — I think it would. That did not occur
to me, but I think it would be a very good thing.

3495. A man's wife could maintain herself respectably without parting
with her clothes ? — I think so.,

3496. (Admiral Shepherd.) Have the seamen of the fleet any just cause
of complaint with reference to the manner in which they are treated on
board of Her Majesty's ships of war, and if you think they have, will you
state what it is ? — I can etate one or two, and one is the length of time
they are kept on foreign stations.

3497. Are they tyrannized over now ?— Quite the contrary; there may
be single cases, but as far as the treatment I have received in ships I have
been in, goes quite the contrary.

3498. Are the men kindly and considerately treated? — In all the ships
that I have been in of late years, they have been.

3499. Have they any complaints to make with reference to their allow-
ance of provisions? — The quantity, in one or two instances, is certainly
not enough for a vsailor. The bread, I should speak of first, they have not
enough. In my time I have been four hours on deck in the morning
watch, and have come down, and not had a mouthful of bread of any de-
scription, not even the dust ; I have had nothing. Off Cape Horn I have
been on the main-topsail-yard, as captain of the main-top, and I have come '
down below, and had a pinch of snuff for my breakfast.

3500. You consider that an increase in the allowance of bread would be
most acceptable to the fleet? — Yes, no doubt, and it would be an induce-
ment for men to join from the merchant service. I know a man, named
Beard, who joined the " Superb," when I was boatswain of her, from a
merchant ship in Queenstown. I do not know how long he served, but I
think three years. We were ordered home from the Mediterranean, and
when we came to Spithead the ship was not paid off, but we were paid
some portion of the pay, and this man and others have been many times
heard to say, that the only thing they disliked the service for, was that
there was not enough bread.

3501. Have you ever heard the seamen complain of shortness in the
allowance of beef or pork ? — I have heard of it in this way, that they have
been very glad to get their allowance, part of it, served out, that they might
have it for their breakfast, and they considered it a very good boon ; they
used to let them take one piece, say, to the mess, of pork, and that was
taken for breakfast, and then they appeared quite satisfied, and they would
willingly give up that portion at dinner time for something at breakfast.

3502. You think that the allowance of beef and pork is sufficient, but
the manner of serving it out is not so satisfactory as it might be ? — There
is no doubt that the men require some little thing for breakfast, seamen
generally consider themselves satisfied in a great measure for the day.

3503. Do you mean something in addition, or a part of the present al-
lowance, served out for the breakfast ? — I cannot speak so well now from
experience, but when I was before the mast, we had only three quarters of
a pound.

3504. Have our seamen as much leave as the duties of the ships will
admit of?— In the last ten years, I have seen quite as much leave given
as the duties of the ship would admit of.

3505. Is it your honest opinion, that the seamen of the fleet are kindly,
considerately, and indulgently treated, in the present day? — There are a
few grievances that I have heard sailors complain of, and that I may speak
of, and as to which they do not think that they are treated as comfortably
as they might be, for instance, washing clothes at night, that is one thing;
these are little things that they complain of a great deal. A smart seaman-
likes to see his frock and white trousers clean, and they do not like to
wash in the dark, they have to stand between the guns, and frequently if I
have had the middle watch, I have left it at 4 o'clock, and then I have
stayed up and washed my clothes.

3506. Have you ever heard them complain of the time at which tlioy
were obliged to take their meals, that it was too early in the morning f—
Yes ; I have heard that frequently. In the East Indies frequently, I think,
we breakfasted at 4 o'clock in the morning.

3507. Why did you go to breakfast at 4 o'clock in the morning ? — I
cannot say.

3508. Was there any service to be performed that was particular ? —
Nothing particular.

3509. There was no reason for going to breakfast at four, you might
just as well have gone to breakfast at seven or eight ? — Yes.

3510. What do you think is the most convenient time for the seamen to
breakfast, speaking generally ? — Seven o'clock.

3511. Six bells? — Yes. We will suppose that a man gets up at four
or five o'clock, he might be up at four, for the morning watch.

3512. Then with the exception of the cases you have mentioned, are you
or not prepared to say that the seamen of the fleet are kindly, considerately,
and indulgently treated? — From what I understand £ urn them, and my
own experience, with these few annoyances, there may be others that I
might have experienced, I do not know that they are altered now.

3513. But they were not so serious as to leave any lastiug impression
on your mind ? — None.

3514. (Sir J. Elphinstone.} If these little grievances were removed,
would it be your opinion that the men in the navy have few or no causes
of complaint ? — I think that their pay altogether is small compared with
the merchant service.

3515. (Admiral Shepherd.) What is it that keeps the merchant seamen
out of the Queen's service? — These are the reasons: they consider in the
first place, that there is a great deal of what they call nonsense. If you
ask them what it is, although I do not follow their views, they say that
there is too much drill. I have generally found men-of-war's men to like
a little drill, but not carried to the extent that it has been carried; it is
rather an amusement than otherwise, a little of it, but in some cases, where
it is carried to too great an extent, I have heard them come on deck grumb-
ling. I never did when I was before the mast, but since I have been in a
large ship I have heard them say, " Here we are roused out of our mess,"
the tables are triced up, and the guns are taken for drill, probably where
they were messing.

3516. Upon the whole, and generally speaking, do you think that the
seamen are better treated in Her Majesty's ships or in the mercantile navy ?
— I think that the man-of-war's man is better treated, provided he could
be allowed a little more provision, than in any other service ; he has gene-
rally a clean and a dry bed ; sometimes it may get wet, but from what I
have seen in the merchant vessels, and I have been on board of many
during the last war; I was on board all the transports, and assisted in
shipping all the horses, and a great portion oi the transport stores that left
Bevonport. I could see the dirty hovels that they lived in, and I would
not, if they had given me three times the pay, have gone on board.

3517. Is it your opinion that there is less brutality in the navy than in
the merchant service in the treatment of our" seamen? — Yes.

• •18. Is there any brutality at all in Her Majesty's set-vice? — I hate
never seen any, not brutality. I have seen some severe treatment a few
years back.

3519. But there is none of that in the present day ? — Not that I have
seen, or that I could complain of.

3520. (Sir J. Elphinstone.) I suppose you find that when merchant
seamen join the navy their habits are dirty, and their movements slow? —
The greater portion of them.

3521. In point of fact, they have to be got out of those ways before they
can possibly take to the duties of the ship ? — That they have.

The witness withdrew.

Sir James Elphinstotie to J. R. E/igledue, Esq., Superintendent of the
Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company.

40*2. What do you think are the real causes of the distaste for the
Navy, and which prevents men from freely joining? — There are a great
variety of causes ; there are many sore points, and for some years one was
the doing away with pensions for warrant officers' widows. They felt that
that was a breach of trust and confidence. It prevented a great many good
men. such as boatswains' mates and carpenters' mates taking the warrant,
because they felt that there was no ultimate advantage, and they preferred
serving out their time as first-class petty officers, and getting their pension,
and going into some other service. Then again, they say, " The fact is,
u we are never certain of anything that is going on in the navy. The
;' Admiralty is always changing. One set of Lords make one law, and stop
" in a lew months, and then in come another set and capsize all the old
" rules ; in fact, we feel a want of confidence in the Admiralty, they are so
" continually changing the rules and regulations of the service,"

Admiral Shepherd to Admiral Sir Thomas Maitland.

5628. In your opinion, should pensions to the widows of the warrant
officers be restored ? — I think so ; I think it was a hard case the warrant
officers' widows losing their pensions.

5629. (Marquis of Chandos.} It has appeared in evidence that they have
received no pension since 1830, but that the warrant officers have received
some additional pay ? — I think that the widows ought to receive pensions ;
and I think there are cases in which good men have refused warrants in
consequence of knowing that their widows would not receive any pensions.

Mr. Cardwell to C. H. Petwett, Esq., Chief Clerk of Hie Admiralty.
5654. Will you favour us with your opinion as to the claim which the
warrant officers make for a renewal of pensions to their widows ; and first,
will you state the grounds upon which those pensions were withdrawn? —
First, for financial reasons ; and secondly, on moral considerations.
^ 5655. Will you be good enough to explain the nature of the moral con-
«iderations.? — The fact of a man being married led hi*n naturally to shrink

"frorn sea service, and he was not so ready to accept it as before. It was
ascertained, moreover, that a considerable number of widows were living
with other men without declaring their marriage ; the result being that
those who were conscientious lost their pensions in consequence of their
re-marriage, and those who were not conscientious lived in a state of con-
cubinage with other men.

5656. Does it fall within your knowledge that there is any condition of
things in the army which is cognate to this of the pensions to the widows
of warrant officers ? — I do not know of any class in the army corresponding
to that of the warrant officers.

5657. Can you state what the cost to the country would be, of returning
to the practice of allowing pensions to the widows of warrant officers ? —
There are about 1,000 warrant officers on the list, and the expense would
be under £20,000 annually.

5658. (Admiral Shepherd.) Suppose the same limit were put that was
put with regard to commissioned officers, viz., that no widow should claim
a pension who had been married after her husband was 60 ; would that, in
your opinion, obviate any of the moral objections ? — No; because that rule
was in force when the results already referred to followed.

5659. (Mr. Cardwell.) Upon the whole, looking at this question upon
moral considerations, you retain your objections? — Yes; I would rather
increase considerably the pay of the warrant officers, and leave them to
provide for their own widows.

5660. Will you state to the Commission how this matter was dealt with
by the Committee of 1852? — The Committee acted upon the principle I
have suggested; that is, they increased the pay of the warrant officers, and
they appealed to their good feeling to make a provision for their widows.

5661. What do you consider to be the position of the warrant officers
now in the Queen's service ? — I do not consider that his position, either as
to pay or rank, is equal to the very important duties which he is called
upon to perform.

5662. You would recommend that some improvement should be made?
— Yes, both in his rank and pay.

5663. Where would you place him in point of rank? — He should, in
my opinion, come immediately after the second masters.

5664. What increase of pay would you give him? — I would expend
the sum which might be appropriated for pensions to the widows, in in-
creasing the pay of the officers.

5665. You acknowledge the justice of the claim, financially speaking,
for the widow's pension, but you think that the former mode of giving it
was particularly objectionable? — Yes.

5666. You would recommend an additional £20,000 per annum to be
allowed to the warrant officers in the navy, but that it should not go in the
shape in which it was formerly given? — Yes.

Mr. Cardwell to Sir R. M. Bromley, K.C.B.

6204. If the Government were to grant the request which has been made
.by the warrant officers to restore to their widows their pensions, and they were
also to consider it retrospectively, so as to include the widows of those who

Lad died since the widows' pensions were withdrawn, what would be the ileift
that we ought to enter on that head? — £19,150, provided the pension of the
widow was the same, £25 a year.

6205. That would cover the whole? — It would cover the whole of your
proposed cost.

Captain Henry Chads, R. N.

Promotion from the ranks is not, I believe, generally speaking, popular
with military officers. It would, no doubt, be an unpopular step with naval
officers in general.

But when we consider how well this system is working in the army, and
the number of young meritorious men who have been advanced from the ranks
in the last few years, together with the ease with which we have of late raised
recruits for our army in India, which I believe may be very much attributed
to this measure of promotion, we shall net do amiss seriously to consider if
we may not, to some extent at any rate, adopt it in the navy.

I am aware that there is already a regulation by which, in extraordinary
cases, a warrant officer can be promoted to be a commissioned officer, recei-
ving £100 as an outfit. Let this rule still remain for very extreme cases.
But as it is at present a dead letter, from never having been acted upon, it is
no incentive to sailors. The step from a warrant officer to a lieutenant is
certainly a very great one.

Why should there not be an intermediate step to the rank of mate or second
master f

I believe, myself, that we lost a great opportunity of a step in the right
direction during the Crimean war.

I have been told that there were many most enterprising, well-informed
.young warrant officers in the naval brigade, and that very many gallant acts
were from time to time performed by them, acts worthy of advancement, per-
formed by men well deserving of and fit for promotion.

One sees many young gunners in the present day who have taken first-class
certificates from the " Excellent," who are clever at figures, have some slight
knowledge of trigonometry, to the extent, at any rate, of taking angles and
working out distances, who can write an excellent hand and express themselves
well, having at the same time a thorough knowledge of their profession as sea-
men ; men, in fact, as worthy of a commission in their own service as any
colour-serjeant in the army of his ; with this material advantage too in their
case, that they are already of a superior rank to the serjeant, already " war-
rant" officers, and that the jump in rank for them, therefore, is less than for
him.

I think if it were certain that a seaman might not only by good character
and intelligence become a petty officer, and then a warrant officer, but by
extraordinary merit, ability, or gallantry might become a commissioned officer,
that this fact would exert a very powerful stimulus on the naval service,

Now it is notorious that at the present time we are very short of second-
masters, and that bye-and-bye, if we cannot find some means of recruiting
that class of officers, we shall be in want of masters for our ships.

I would propose that, for special service performed, warrant officers (that
is boatswains and gunners) should be advanced to the rank of mates, or more

particularly to that of second-masters, (but retaining their former pay, or the
pay of a gunner or boatswain of the first-class, and receiving always in such
cases £50 or £100, or whatever other sum might be thought right to procure
an outfit,) when every facility should be afforded them to enable them to
qualify themselves to pass their examinations for lieutenants or masters, and
a reasonable hope be held out to them of promotion to one of those ranks when
they had done so.

Captain W. B. Oliver, R.N.
WHY MEN DO NOT ENTER,

First. — Wear and tear of clothes in fitting out, and no allowance to make
the same good.

Second. — Dislike herding with trash.

Third. — Loss of grog.

Fourth. — Loss of prize money.

Fifth. — Harass in training, and no spare time allowed*

Sixth. — Loss of pensions to warrant officers' widows.
PROPOSED REMEDIES.

First. — Fatigue dress to be supplied for dirty work, and bounty of £20 for
every first-rate thorough A.B. on entering for 10 years, to be paid in four in-
stalments, the first when ready for sea, the others on the completion of the
third, sixth, and ninth years of service. Every soldier costs the country £50
before he is a soldier fit for duty ; why then is not a thorough ready-made
A.B. worth £20, and petty officers a higher bounty?

Second. — Ships not to be hastily filled up with the scum of the earth, from
Bristol, Liverpool, Cork, &c., to the disgust of all good and orderly men.

Third. — The present allowance of grog to be increased to admit of an even-
ing's glass, or the captain and officers to be put in the same position as their
men by a stoppage of their wine and spirits.

Fifth. — A secret confidential order issued to all captains, limiting the time
to be devoted daily to drill; and ordering a "rope-yarn Sunday" when prac-
ticable. Any captain disobeying these orders, or publishing them, to be
immediately superseded without promulgating the cause.

Sixth. — Pensions to be restored to the widows of warrant officers.

Captain W. F. Glanville, R. N>

He strongly recommends the expediency of restoring the pensions to the
widows of warrant officers.

J. W. Armstrong, Master, R.N.

That the position and pay of warrant officers should be improved instead
of being looked down upon as they now are, and that the pensions to the
widows should be restored.

Cambridge Terrace, Lake Road, Portsea.
Marc* 8th, 1859.

SIR,

I humbly beg leave to acknowledge the receipt of the
Kcport of the Royal Commission for Manning the Navy, and to return
my sincere thanks for the same; the Warrant Officers are truly thankful
to the Royal Commission for their recommendation of a Pension to their
Widows, and also their Position next Second Masters, and they also
pray that some points mentioned in their Memorial might not be lost
sight of by the Admiralty, (while the subject of Manning the Navy is
before them), which if granted, >vould greatly benefit the Class without
injury to others, or incurring additional expense. First, — Their position
next Second Masters being recommended, they pray that a Relative
Rank in the Army equal to that enjoyed by Second Masters be assigned
to the Warrant Officers. The loss of Rank has been a pecuniary loss to
the Class; the Warrant Officers of the Naval Brigade in India, received
only Three Rupees per day for subsistence, while the Midshipmen and
Assistant Engineers received each Seven Rupees per day. Retirement
after an aggregate of (say) 30 years services, with a definite scale accord-
ing to the length of time warranted. The Warrant Officers are the only
Class constantly employed, and from their diversified and active duties
are worn out at a much earlier period of life than other grades of the
service; there are other points named in the Memorial that may be
granted by the Admiralty, which would induce the best Petty Officers
to accept Warrants. Trusting Sir, you will not consider us troublesome,

We are, Sir,
Your very obedient Servants,

THE DEPUTATION.

Signed in their behalf, T. H. HOWELS, Gunner, R.N.
H. C. Rotheryy Esq., Secretary.

28, Abingdon Street, Westminster,
March 12th, 1859.

SIR,

In reply to your letter of the 8th inst., I beg to
acquaint you that the Royal Commission on Manning the Navy, having
sent in their Report to Her Majesty, any communication that you may
have to make on matters mentioned in your Memorial, but to which the
Commission have not adverted in their Report, should be addressed to
the Secretary of the Admiralty.

I am, Sir,
Your obedient Servant,

H. C. ROTHERY, Secretary.

To Mr. T. H. ffotuels, Gunner, R.N.
Cambridge Terrace, Lake Road, Portsea.

CONCLUSION.

The Report of the Royal Commission having been laid before Her
Majesty, their labors terminate and correspondence ceases. The Names
of all the Witnesses examined are inserted, and Extracts taken from the
Evidence, &c., of each and all who have wrote or spoke in behalf of our
Class, leaving the reader to draw his own conclusion. The best thanks
of the Warrant Officers are tendered to each individual (of whatever
station in life) that have wrote, spoke, or in any way labored to improve
their condition, to some we owe a debt of gratitude that time will never
pay, — we refrain from mentioning names, the insertion of some and the
omission of others, might cause jealously;, conscience is a faithful moni-
tor, and where praise is due receive such from grateful hearts; and to
those who have been as a millstone round our necks for so many years,
do not let the cry of the Fatherless and Widow sharpen the thorn in your
dying pillow, but let the past suffice and let your future days be devoted
in healing the breach, by using all diligence to promote the welfare of
the Class. The Reader will perceive that every legitimate means has
been taken to lay before the Royal Commission, a plain, true, unvarnish-
ed tale of their decline during the past thirty years, and that it is no
longer confined to their own breast, but circulated for the information of
all interested in our nation's welfare, and more particularly that of the
Navy. Tho Report of the Royal Commission recommends the restora-
tion of the Widows' Pensions, and to be made retrospective, we are very
creditably informed that the Admiralty have likewise strongly recommen-
ded it, that it is now with the Treasury, and we are daily expecting to
see it promulgated; for 29 years the Widows' Pensions have been with-
held, this again restored, will cause many a Widow's heart to rejoice,
and the Fatherless to leap for joy, and thousands yet unborn will have
cause to praise God that he has so disposed the hearts of some to labor
for and accomplish this great object. Position or Rank next Second
Masters is restoring to the Class what they were deprived of in 1844,
and that which has been to old and faithful servants one of the sharpest
thorns in their path, this will enable the class in future to do their duty
with that zeal they were once accustomed to. There are many points
in the Memorial that have not been adverted to in the Report, which we
trust to see in the Queen's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions that
are now being revised, whether they are or not, we should hope that as
a Class they will be satisfied that there is no fault with those selected to
represent the Class, but that the best means has been used by them to
accomplish the end in view, viz., the promotion and welfare of the Class.
And that which is yet lacking, we would say to all, be united, never
cease to labor for that which is right, and " let us not be weary in well
doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not," so wrote the
great Apostle, and so believe's your humble servant.

T. H. H.

Portsmouth, April, 1859.

PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE
CARDS OR SLIPS FROM THIS POCKET

UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO LIBRARY

VA The Navy

4.54

N38

Internet Archive Audio

Featured

Top

Images

Featured

Top

Software

Featured

Top

Books

Featured

Top

Video

Featured

Top

Mobile Apps

Browser Extensions

Archive-It Subscription

Save Page Now

Full text of "The Navy : a few causes of its decline with suggestions for its revival"

See other formats