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THE NEW 



ANNUAL REGISTER, 



OR 



GENERAL REPOSITORY 



OF 



HISTORY, 

poLn ics, 

ARTS, SCIENCES, 

L I T E l^-A:T:ing E, 
■ '•• "/ ". •••'. .* 

For the- Vesir '1824. 



LONDON: 

PUBLISHED BY B. J. HOLDSWORTH, 

18, ST. PAUL'S CHURCH- YARD. 

- 1835.- 



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'lilEl.k.\\"^C:<K 

152942 

A8T0R, ! FMOX AND 
TILDEN FOUNDATIONS. 



• •••! •• 



•• • • /• !•:••? 



1^t«4 by B. lUSTINS uid SON. 41, Brick Lne, 8|iltett«|ii. 



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PREFACE. 



TT E cannot commence this Volume without oflfering 
our best thanks for the patronage we continually receive 
—a patroni^, which in the last year has considerably 
increased^ and which, we win continue to do our utmost 
to deserve. In the literary rivalry of the present day, it 
requires no small exertion to maintain the ground for 
which aU are contesting ; but our labours are made light 
by the reflection, that our ground is not only maintained 
but extended. 

An apology is due for 4^e:'b^- appearance of this 
Vokime : it has been occasioned by a chain of circum- 
stances, which we trust will not operate in the ensuing 
year, as we hope to appear in February. 



London, 
17th Jane, 181B. 



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STATE OFFICERS OF ENGLAND AND IRELAND. 



President of the Council Earl of Harro why. 

Lord Chancellor EarlofEldon. 

Lord Privv Seal Earl of Westmoreland, K. G. 

First Lord of the Treastny Earl of Liverpool, K. G. 

Chancellor and Under Treasurer of 

the Exchequer Right Hon. F. Robinson. 

First Lord of the Admiralty Lord Viscount Melville. 

Master General of the Ordnance • . Quke of Wellington, K. G. 

Secretary of State ibr the Home De- 
partment Ri^ht Hon. R. Peel. 

Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Rt, Hon. G. Canning. 

Secretary of State for the Depart- 
ment of the Colonies Eaii Bathuist, 1L 6. 

President of the Board of Control 

ibr the AffidiB of India Right Hon. C. W.W.Wynne. 

Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Lord Bexley. 

Not of the Cabinet. 

Master of the Mint Right Hon. T. Wallace. 

Treasurer of the Navy, and Ptesi* 

dent of the Board of Trade • • • • Hon. W. Huskisson. 
Master of the Biickhounds •••••.•• Bight Hon. Lord Maryborough. 

Secretaxy at Wat :••/« <.— h< \ Viscoimt Palmerston. 

Paymaster Genei^bjthelpitte^. ^/ -f^h^Hon. Sir Cbas. Long, G. C. B. 
Lieut. General o^Oi^li^ce •• .V.*/ .Vi^sQunt Beresford. 
First Commissioner of be^d K9^nu«..}&gh{ Hon. C. Arbuthnot. 
Postmaster General i*%> /..;.v*%C • | •••Earl of Chichester. 
Secretaries of the Xreaswy^. *At*.V:« *^' ^ Lushington, and J. C' Henries, 
*.**••••••••• z Esq 

Master of the Rolls ' .*'. *. : ! / :A li!*.: . J^ghtHon. Lord Giffoid. 

Vice Chancellor « Right Hon. Sir John Leach, Kt. 

Attorney General Sir J. S. Copley, Kt. 

Solicitor General Sir C. Wetherell, Kt. 

Persons in the Ministry of Ireland, 

Lord Lieutenant Marquess of Wellesley. 

Lord High Chancellor Lord Manners. 

Chief Secretaiy Right Hon. Hemy Goulboum, M. P. 

Commander of the Forces Loid Combermere, G. C. B. 

Vice Treasurer R^ht Hon. Sir G. F. Hill, Bait. 

Attorney General Right Hdn. W. Plunkett. 

Solicitor General H. Joy. 



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CONTENTS. 



PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



CHAP. I. 

SpeetAJrom the Throne.-'-'Debate on the ^ddreu.'-'^On receiving the 
Report on the Usury Laws^^'-'On the Xavf Eetinuaei.-''4)n Uie 
Army dUto, — The Budget.^^Coiurt of C%aiicefy.— ^fuKndn Loan. ^ 
"•^Orwutnce Estwuttton. ••••••••••••^•^••.tv«>j»* 3 



Breach of Privileae, — South AmeHoa'.^V^fMi-Jndibi^Col^^ 

Spain. — Alien Actf Sfc >.«- ^ j <:/»%;• ; ;* » * /. 151 



CHAP. HI. 

£)icfv on Small Leaades.'^Coal Dutie8.-^^-Diuewters Marriages* — 
iSir. CaOurvne's Dodu—AUen AcL— Windsor Castle.'-'^ppHes. 
'^Defence of Felons by GyunseL^^The Beer Duties, — Usury Laws. 
—New Churdies 259 



CHAP. IV. 

.** 
Unitarian Marriage Bill, — Employment of the Poor in Ireland.^^ 
Kensifuaton Turnpike, — Ways and Means, — West India Com^ 
pany Bill. — Repeal of Assessed Taxes.— Alien BUI. — Sugar Du- 
iies.Salt Duties— Warehoused Wheat Bill,— Forfeited Peerages. 
— Beer Duties.^C€mmitments by Magistrates 326 



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viii CONTENTS. 

CHAP. V. 

Case of Mr. SmitJh the Missionary. — CkjmmitUibforCnrmnal Offences. 
— impressment of Seamen. — Independence of South Jmerica.^^ 
Protests against the Irish Insurrection^ and Earl Martial's Relief 
Bills.^^Prorogation of Parliament ^1 

HISTORICAL RETROSPECT. 

CHAP. VL 

State of the Country ^ external and internaL —Agrundture^ Commerce^ 
Manufacturesy ^. ^. .«..'...•••.•• « • 471 

CHAP. vn. 

State of Prance^ Spain^ and Portugal^ Germmxy^ the North, 
Russia,, Greece, Turkey, America, ^c - , .- 477 

PUBLIC PAPERS. 

Communioations with France and «%k»W relating to the Spanish AmC" 

rican Provinces ... ..*..* * * • 485 

Abstract of the KA Produce of the Rcven-ae of Great Britain in the 
Year ending lO(hjQctob^, 1S2Z, and lOth October, 1824, distin^ 

guishing the C^h^rf •*•!,/• /• .;. <%%m«..« • ^ 

Abstract of the mt Product of U&Aevi^of Great Britain in the 



, ^ _. 494 

ASstrat^ i 

Yearsand Quarters^eiu^ <^tSq lipm^^koHer, 1823, and lOth Oo- 
tober, 1 824, shewing Jh^ J/f c^aa U g i^*Decrease on eax^ head thereof 49G 

An Account of the Ineoy^^lihiBl*(%sf'gef upon the Consolidated Fund, 
in the Quarters efi&i^ «At ^HjO^bpr^ 1823 and 1824, together 
with the Amount hfifSe'*AniMiL^iH^, ^ to the same period • • 497 

An Account of the Produce of the Excise thities of Cheat Britain in the 
Year and Quarters ended the lOth October, 1823, and the \Oth Oc- 
tober, 1824, shewing the Increase or Decrease on each head thereof 499- 

Return to an Order of the Honourable House of Commons,, dated 
I5th of April, 1824, for an Account of the Sums expended in the 
Purchase of Stock, and the Amount of Debt redeemed, in the year 
ending the bih of April, 1824 501 

An Account of the Value, official and real, of all Exports from Great 
Britain to his Majesty'* s Colonies in North America, in each Year, 
from the Year 1/64, to the Year 1773, inclusive, distinguishing 
those to Canada from the other Colonies 503^ 

An Account of the Value, real arid official, of all Exports to South 
America from Great Britain, in the Years 1801, 1802, 1803, in^ 
elusive. Also an Account ofihe Value, real and official, of all Ex- 
ports from Cheat Britain to South America, in the Years 1821, 
1822, 1823, inclttsive t ibid* 



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CONTENTS. » 

Real Vah/e of BrUish and Iridi Produce and Manm^aetSttreSj exparUd 
to South Jbneriooj ftTudwUng the Exports to Mexico) ae atoertamed 

uwisriheprovigionsof the Act 53y Ueo» IIL cap. 98 •••• 503 

Jtt AoooufU of the Valu/e^ real and official^ of all Exports from Great 
Britain to the United States in ^orthAmmcOy tn ea/^ Yeatyfrom 

t^Keor 1814, to <A6 Fear 1823, tnc/tMtve 504 

Real Vcdne of British and Irish Produce and MawufactureSy Exported 
from Great Britain to the United States in North AmericOf asoer* 
tained under the provisions of the Act 53, Geo. IIL cap. 98. • • • • ibid* 
Account of Grain and Flour mutually Exported and Imported from 

andtoEnglandjScotlandyand Irelandyfrom 1819 to 1823,fnc/time 505 
An Abstract of the Net Produce of the Revenue of Ireland^ in Oie 

Year ended the 5th January, 1824 ibid. 

Revenue and E^menditure of the Island of Ceylon ibid. 

Account of the Funded and Unfunded Debt of ike United Kingdom^ 

in the Year ended the 5th January, \S24. 506 

Trade of the United Kinadom 507 

Namgation of the United Kinadom 508 

An Account of the DuJty on Hops of the growth of the Year 1824, 

dittinguithing the different DistriclSy and the OldandNew Duty. . 509 
AnAooount of the Number of Ships entered into thePort ofLondony 
with the Oitmtities of Coals mey delivered, together wiSi the Ave- 
rone Prices of the different sorts, for the first nine Months of every , 

Year^from 1818 to 1824, both inclusive ibid. 

Armud State of Newgate 510 

Statement of if!^ Number of Persof IS convicted in the F«ir]824.... ibid. 

Population of Ireland 512 

Criminal Lcav — Returns moved by Mr. Hume •. ...*. 514 

TheTeaTrade 515^ 

Christenings and Burials within the City of London and Bills of Mor- 
tality, from December IS23, to December 14, IS24 516^ 

Spee(h of the King of France, delivered on f^ 23cf of March, 1824, 

Oft the opening of the Chambers •• • 518^ 

Decree of the Ktng of Spain • « • • 51^ 

Speech of the King of the Netherlands on opening the States Genercd, 

October IS, 1824 521 

Trade with the Netherlands 522 

Cot^vention of Commerce between his Britannic Majesty and the King 

ofPruseia • ibid. 

T\do Ordinances issued from Vienna ..••.. 524 

Utdcarations of Sweden for the Abolition of certain Dues affecting 

British Commerce in &e Ports of Sweden ibid. 

Russian finances « »• 525 

Public Debt of Portugal ;\ 528 

GenoeseTariff ibid. 

Message of the President of the United States on opening the ISth 

Confess 529 

American Papers . • 531 

TheneuiTamofthe United States , &37 

Periodical Press of the United States 538 



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X CONTENTS. 

Mejaoo^^Ripwi of the OmmiUee on the Constttution 539 

ReveniM of Mexico • . ^ • . • 541 

Abolition of Slavery m Mexico ...b • 542 

, Copy of the Treaty of Friendghip, Union and Alliance, concluded 

between the Repubiic of Columbia and the Mexican KaJtion .... ibid. 
SMement of the progressive Increase of the Public Revenue of the 

Empire of the BrazUs^from 1808 to 1820, both inclusive 544 

Present State of the Brazil Imperial Navy ibid. 

Chinese Newspapers ibid. 



PRINCIPAL OCCURRENCES in the Year 1824; (3) 

Marriages • (69) 

Births (70) 

Lhalhs (71) 

Biographical Sketches (73) 

' List of Promotions in 1824 (94) 

List of Sheriffs far the Year 1824 (95) 

Price of Stocks (96) 



LITERARY RETROSPECT AND SELECTIONS. 

CHAP. I. 

1. Memorials of Columbus [3' 

2. Memoirs of Goethe [^ 

3. Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Mrs. Frances Sheridan . [10 

4. The Life and Times ^ Sahaior Rosa [12^ 

5. Histcruxd Life of joannoy of Sicily^ Queen of Naples^ and 

Countess of Provence [19] 

6. Memoirs of his Serene Highness^ Amihony Philip d^ Orleans, 

Duke of Montpeonier [28' 

7. History of the Revoluiion of 168S 'St 

8. RecoUectums of an eventful Life^ chiefly passed m the Army. . 43' 

9. Letters from ihelrish Highlands : [47^ 

10. A Tour in Crermany, and some of the Southern Provinces 

in the Austrian Empire, in the Years 1820, 1821, 1822 . • 

11. Cochrane^s Pede^Snan Journey • 

12. Sketches of the History^ Manners, and Customs of the North 

Jmeruin Indian,.. 

13. Buflock^s Six Months in Mexico ••••• 

14. Extracts from a Joumal, written on the Coast of Chili, 

Peru, and Mexico, in the Years 1820, 1821, 1822 [831 

15. Journal of a Residence in Ashantee ..,.,»,,. 4 .», * [91 

16. Captain Parry's Second Voyage [102' 

17. Hibbert's Phihsophy of Ajmaritions [118' 

18. Meteorological. Essays and Observations • [136* 






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CONTENTS. xi 

CHAP. II. 

Pace 

DisdwerieSi Inventions^ and FactSy in ArU^ Scienoesj and Pkilo9ophf [139] 

CHAP. III. 
Stak of the Fine ArU [149] 



POETRY. 

Lord Byron's LateH Verses ....••.. [158] 

Stanzas, written by P. B.Schettey • [159] 

AnEoiadiumy in memory of a very promising Young Man, (Mr% 
WuUam Hemaman^ of Totness, DevonshtreJ who died of the 

Yellow Fever, at La Gwnrra, August 9, 1823 [160] 

Awnabella, from the Silent JRiver [1611 

Troi&badour Song, from the New Monthly Magazine .••.....•. Ll63l 

Jb Anna, on her mihFdayt hy James Edmeston ibi<L 



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PARLIAMENTARY 
DEBATES, 



FOR THE YEAR 1824. 



»» H^ 



CHAPTER L. 

Speech firom the TTirone '^Debate on the Address ^^On recewing the Report 
an the Vswry Laws — On the Xavy Estimates^On the Army Ditto — 
The Budget — Court of Chancery -^Attstrian Loan — Ordnance Es* 

HOUSE of Lords, February 3.— 
Tbia h&ng .the day fixed for 
the openii^ of parliament, the lords 
appointed for that purpose by his 
majesty's commission, assembled 
about three o'clock. The commis- 
sioners were, the lord chancellor, 
the archbidiop of Canterbury, and 
the eails of Westmorland, mrrow- 
l^, and Slmfbbuiy. Having taken 
thdr seats, the commission was read, 
and die lord chancellor, according 
to the usual form, order»l the com- 
mons to be summoned. In a few 
minutes the speaker, attended by 
several members of the house of 
commons, appeared at the bar, when 
the lord chancellor read his majesty's 
speech in the following terms :-* 
** Myjords and gerUlemen^ 

*< We are commanded by his ma- 
jesty to express to you his majesty^s 
deep regret, that, in consequence of 



Ltion, he is prevented from 
meeting you in parliunent upon the 
present occasion. 

** It would have been a peculiar 
satisfection to his majesty, to be en- 
abled in person to congratulate you 
on the prosperous condition of the 



le and commerce are ex- 
themselves both at home and 



tendi] 



** An increasing activity pervades 
almost every brandi of manufacture. 

" The growth of the revenue is 
such, as not only to sustain public 
credit, and to prove the unimpaired 
productiveness of our resources, but 
(what is yet more gratifying to his 
majesty's feelings) to evince a diffu- . 
sion of comfort among the great 
body of his people. 

** Agricuhure is recovering from 

the depression under which it la- 

A 2 bouiedL 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



boured, and, by the steady opera- 
tion of natural causes, is gradually 
re^assuming the station to which its 
importance entitles, it among the 
great interests of the nation. 

" At no former period has there 
prevailed, throughout all classes of 
the community in this island, a more 
cheerful spirit of order, or a more 
just sense of the advantages which, 
under the blessii^ of Irovidencer* 
they enjoy. 

** In Ireland, which has for some 
time past been the subject of his ma- 
je8ty*s particular solicitude, there are 
many mdications of amendment; 
and his majesty relies upon your 
continued endeavours to secure the 
welfare and happiness of that part 
of the united kingdom. 

** His majesty nas commanded us 
further to inform you, that he has 
every reason to beheve that the pro- 
gress of our internal prosperity and 
improvement will not be disturbed 
by any interruption of tranquillity 
abroad. 

" His majesty continues to receive 
from the powers his allies, and ge- 
nerally from all princes and states, 
assurances of their earnest desire to 
maintain and cultivate the relations 
of friendship with his majesty ; and 
nothing is omitted on his inajesty*s 
part, as well to preserve general 
peace, as to « remove any causes of 
disagreement, and to draw closer the 
bonds of amity between other na- 
tions and Great Britain. 

" The negociations which have 
been so long carried on through his 
majesty's ambassador at Constanti- 
nople, for the arrangement of dif- 
ferences between Russia and the 
Ottoman Porte, are, as his majesty 
flatters himself, drawing near to a 
favourable termination. 

" A convention has been con- 
cluded between his majesty and the 



emperor of Austria, for the settle- 
ment of the pecuniary claims of the 
country upon the court of Vienna^ - 

*^ lus majesty has directed that a 
copy of this convention shall be; laid 
before you, and he relies on your 
assistance for the execution of some 
of its provisions. 

** Ajixiously as his majesty de- 
precated the commencement of the 
war in Spain, he is every day more 
satisfied, that in the strict neutrality 
which he determined to observe in 
that contest (and which you so cor- 
dially approved), he best consulted 
the true mterests of his people. 

" With respect to the provinces 
of America which have declared 
their separation from Spain, his ma^ 
jesty^s conduct has been open and 
consistent, and his opinions have 
been at all times frankly avowed to 
Spain and to other powers. 

** His majesty has ap^pointed con- 
suls to reside at the principal ports 
and places of those provinces, for 
the protectioii of the trade of hia 
subjects. 

*< As to any further measures, his 
majesty has reserved to himself an 
unfettered discretion, to be exercised 
as the circumstances of those coun- 
tries, and the interests of his own 
people, may appear to his majesty to 
require. 
** Gentlemen oftheHofoseofCommong^ 

** His majesty has directed us to 
inform you, that the estimates for 
the year are prepared, and shall be 
forthwith laid before you. 

** The numerous points at which, 
under present circumstances, his ma* 
jesty*8 naval force is necessarily dis- 
tributed, and the occasion which has 
arisen for strengthening his garrisons 
in the West Indies, have rendered 
unavoidable some sHigmentation of 
his establislmients by sea and land. 

" His majesty has, however, the 
gratificattoTi' 



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PABLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



gratification of believing, that not- 
withstanding the increase of expense 
incident to these augmentations, it 
will still be in your power, aAer 
providing for the service of the year, . 
to make arrangements, in some parts 
of our system of taxation, which may 
afford relief to certain important 
branches of the national industry. 
" My lords and gentlemen, 

** His majesty has commanded us 
to acquaint you, that he has not been . 
inattentive to the desire expressed, 
by the house of commons m the 
ket session of parliament, that means . 
should be devised for the ameliora- 
tion of the condition of the negro 
slaves in the West Indies. 

" His majesty has directed the 
necessary in&rmation relating to this 
subject to be laid before you. 

'< His majesty is confident that 
you will afford your best attention 
and assistance to any proposition 
which may be submitted to you, for 
promoting the moral improvement 
of the negroes, by an extended plan 
of religious instruction, and by such 
odier measures as may gradually 
conduce to the same end. 

" But his majesty earnestly re- 
commends to you to treat this subject 
with the calmness and discretion 
which it demands. 

" It is a subject perplexed with 
difficulties, which no sudden effort 
can disentangle. 

" To excite exaggerated expecta- 
tions in those who are the objects of 
your benevolence, would be as fatal 
to their welfare as to that of their 
employers. 

*' And his majesty assures himself 
you will bear in mind, that in the 
correction of a* long standing and 
complicated system, in whicn the 
fortunes and the safety of large 
classes of his majesty's subjects are 
involved, that course of proceeding 



is alone likely to attain practical- 
good, and to avoid a^ravation of' 
evil, in which due regard shall be> 
paid to considerations of justice»and 
in which caution shall temper zeal.*' r 
The earl of Errol took the oatbft- 
and his seat, as representative Scotch ; 
peer; lord Baynmg also took the< 
oaths and liis seat, on succeeding to. 
the title ; and lord Gifford was, in 
consequence of his creation, intro-. 
duced by lords Stowell and Dormer., 
Their lordships then adjoumect 
and met again at five o'clock. 

On the motion of the earl of 
Liverpool, the select vestry bill was, : 
according to the usual practice, read, 
a first time, before pro^eding to the 
consideration of his majesty's speech. 
The speech was then read a first 
time by the lord chancellor, and a 
second time by the derk. 

Earl Somers immediately rose to 
move the address, which was se- 
conded by lord Lorton, 

The marquis of Lansdown began 
by expressing his entire concurrence 
in the congratulations contained in 
the address from the throne on the 
prosperous state of the country. It 
was, he observed^ a great satis&tc- 
tion to find, that an improvement 
had taken place in our trade and 
commerce ; but it was still a greatei' 
one to perceive that this improve- 
ment had been the residt of the very 
excellent regulations which had re- 
cently been adopted with respect to 
both. He looked with the greater 
pleasure upon these results, which 
had been dictated by the voice of 
natural reason, because he was one 
of those who never desponded of the 
power of the country to rescue her- 
self from her difficulties, if her re- 
sources were properly directed, and 
her commerce relieved from many of 
the absurd restraints under which it- 
had long laboured. He now, there- 
fore, 



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6 



PARLIAMENTARY DEBAT£S. 



fbrey saw with unmixed fiatiafection, 
the adoption of a more liberal oom- 
merdal policy, producing its natural 
consequence — ^the improvement of 
our trade, and of course the increase 
in our financial resources. In this 
view of our situation, he agreed with 
the noble mover in the twofold cause 
of congratulation : the first, that the 
increase in our resources proceeded 
from a remission of taxation ; and 
the second, that it arose froih a ma- 
terial improvement in our trade. On 
both these points he had frequently 
had occasion to deliver his opinion 
before their lordships, and he now 
rejoiced that the frequent discussion 
of such topics had produced that 
renovation m circumstances which 
must always be proportionate to the 
increased freedom of trade. Long 
had the shackles under which ae;reat 
portion of our trade laboured been 
opposed in that house; and now 
that many of them had been removed^ 
and that the others were likely to 
fbllow, it was but justice to those 
who contended for meir inutility to 
state, that many of those who nad 
been foremost m supporting their 
continuance, were not less conspi- 
cuous for their zeal in endeavoimng 
to procure a removal of the whole. 
Some of those ill-founded r^ula- 
tions had long existed in many 
branches of trade between this ooun- 
tiry and Ireland, and being upheld by 
the prejudices of those who did not 
sufficiendy understand their own in- 
terest, were countenanced by his 
majesty's ministers. They had long 
been adopted by the noble lord op* 
posite (lord Bexley), while chancd- 
lor of the exchequer ; but when last 
year they had been partially re- 
moved by his successor in office, 
petitions came from many of those 
wjtiose previous prejudices had con- 
tributed to maintain them, praying 



for their removal altogether. Sa 
sensible were the parties made of 
the disadvantages attending the for- 
mer system— so much did they be- 
come alive to the benefits resulting 
from the operation of the new r^u- 
lations, that they were now resufy 
with petitions to the l^slature, pray- 
ing for the total aboHtion of those 
wmch remained. Upon this im- 
portant subject, he agreed with the 
noble mover of the address, that 
there was ample ground for congrBf- 
tulation ; and he trusted that at an 
early period of the session, they 
mi^ht become again the subject of 
their lordships* deliberations. As 
to the other point which had been, 
touched upon — ^the remission of op- 
pressive taxation — ^there could be 
but one opinion. As far as the e^r- 
periment has hitherto been tried, the 
result was in all cases the same — an' 
increased consumption. Every at- 
tempt of the kind went fiuther to re- 
move the error into which some 
statesmen had fallen — ^the taxation 
afibrded a support to government by 
the increase of consumption caused 
by it in different branches of our 
commerce. In the allusions which 
had been made to these gratifying- 
topics, he fully concurred, beouise 
he thought the matters connected 
with them not uninstnictive in them- 
selves, and because a strict attention 
to the principles from which they 
arose would be productive of the 
most important benefits to the coun-> 
tty. He agreed that there was aioa- 
terial improvement in the condition 
of the agriculturists; and (excluding 
that portion of it which arose from a 
partial failure of the crops in some 
districts) he thought it a fair subject 
of congratulation, as it showed an 
increased consumption and demand. 
He had thus briefly adverted to 
the better and more gratifying topics 

of 



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of the speech) which related to the 
state of oonuneroe at home ; and he 
fek he could not pass over those 
which related to our situation as 
connected with foreign powers, and 
particulaily with the powers on the 
continent of Europe. He was ra- 
ther surprised and disappointed at 
the flSence of the speech on many 
interesting topics connected with our 
Ibrei^ rdations, and at the slight 
allusion to others not less important. 
He thought it did not heoome the 
king^s mmisters, when they depre- 
cated the origin of the late war in 
Spain, to conceal their regret, if 
r^ret they felt» at the manner in 
which the war had terminated. He 
r^retted, and he was sure the ma- 
jority of the country concurred in the 
regret, that his majesty^s ministers 
sli^uld appear so inattentive to the 
rights of free nations to govern 
tl^mselves, by such laws as they 
thought proper, as they had shown 
themselves on this occasion. He 
regretted to see them treat so lightly 
a practice (for it now unforttinately 
bad become a practice in Euro]pe) so 
subversive of the peace of nations, 
as that of one state interfering, by 
an armed force, to alter the consti- 
tion of another. When he saw, lasT 
summer, a nation sending forth a 
numerous army, to destroy by force 
a constitution established in another, 
with which it was till then at peace ; 
when he found that such interference 
had ended in establishing a complete 
despotism over the whole country ; 
when he found ministers deprecating 
die origin of the war, he confessed 
he did not expect that they could 
have passed over the result m such 
courtly silence as they had observed 
on the present occasion. He did 
expect that they would at the least 
have stated, whether the military oc- 
cupation of Spain by France gave 



satisfaction or not It would not» he 
thought, have been unbecoming in 
the advisers of the crown, to have 
put words into the mouth of their 
sovereign expressive of regret ct the 
violent subversion of the hitherto 
sacred principle, the right of nations 
to govern themselves by a constitu- 
tion of their own choice; of r^ret 
that the country of an ally should 
have been plunged into such horror 
as now re^ed throughout Spain. 
The noble K>rd who moved the ad- 
dress had expressed himself unfa- 
vourable to ultraism of any kind; 
but he would ask whether Spain, at 
the present moment, was not the 
seat of the greatest ultraism ? Was 
she not in Uie hands of a great mili- 
tary nation, whose power it was not 
our interest to see thus increased ? 
Were these matters of such trivial 
im^rt, as not to be deemed worthy of 
notice in the speech from the throne ? 
He would repeat to their lordships, 
that in the present state of Europe, 
when the opposition to the great 
principle before mentioned was 
brought to its climax, it did not be- 
come his majesty's ministers to be 
silent Let them not think, 'that 
when the law of Europe, and of na- 
tions, had once been departed from ; 
when that fundamental principle up- 
on which national freedom rested, 
had been violated with impunity, 
matters would rest there ; for it was 
the character of such ag^ssions to 
produce r6peated violations, if one 
were allowed to be successful. Let 
minbters not think that the balance 
of power, as they called it, being 
once broken, the state of things would 
be such, as not to call for their most 
vigilant attention. Let their lord- 
ships look back for a short period, 
ana see what the state of Europe, and 
what changes had taken place witliin 
a few years, what had hai^ned since 

thQ 



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the temiination of that war, which 
had ended by the overthrow of the 
power of Bonaparte ? Immediately 
after that event, there came forth a 
declaration from several of the great 

Sowers, that the peace and indepen- 
ence of nations, were in future to be 
placed on a more solid footing, by 
which the natural rights of each would 
be respected'and preserved. But how 
had that declaration been observed ? 
Why, since then, he would ^^ had 
not almost the whole of Europe come 
under the dominion of three or four 
great powers ? — ^powers acting under 
the pretence of moderation and jus- 
* tice, out, in reality, exercising a com- 
plete hrranny over states which they 
still affected to call free and inde- 
pendent ? (Hear, hear.)< It was ab- 
surd to use the terms, when it was 
known that those states had not (he 
power to refuse the absolute dictation 
of those despots, or the means to pro- 
tect tKemselves from the consequences 
of such a refusal. Where was the 
small state on the continent of Europe 
which had not, since the period he 
had mentioned, come under the do- 
minion of some one or other of those 
great despotic powers, by whom they 
might be called upon to alter, change, 
or modify their forms of ^vemment 
accordii^to their capricious dicta- 
tion? The system had now been 
carried to such a height, that the 
most unqualified interference was en- 
forced without even an explanation 
being given beyond this^rthat such 
was the will and pleasure of the des- 
pot interfering. It was seen tliat 
neither the monarchical character of 
the government of Wurtembuix, nor 
the monarchical character of that 
of Bavaria, nor the independent form 
of the ancient republic of Switeer- 
land, could preserve them from an 
inteiforence m their intemal.govem- 
ment, which, if offered to this coun- 



try, would be resented as a wantoa 
insult, (hear, hear) ; and why an ia- 
suit to us, more than to odiar coun- 
tries? What difference was there 
between the application of this prin- 
ciple of interference to one or the 
other? The only difference was 
this — ^that we possessed the power of 
resistance to such. Were we, iben^ to 
admit the despotic principle sought 
to be established by such intener- 
ence? Were we to be told that there 
was^to be no law between the states 
of Europe but that of force — that one 
nation might.be destroyed, or its in- 
dependence outraged, at the will of 
another ; and that there was to be no 
rule by which the weaker state was to 
be supported against the aggressions 
of the powerful ? Let it n<S1be ima- 
gined Chat such despotic principles 
should not affect us unless they were 
applied to ourselves. Weweredeeply 
interested in preserving the peace of 
Europe; but it was utterly impos- 
sible that that peace, or the indepen- 
dence of nations, should be rested on 
solid grounds while such principles 
were ^owed to be acted upon with 
impunity. When he saw, that upon 
the changes which had taken place 
in the political state of Europe, in 
consequence of the assertion of this 
monstrous principle, ministers were 
silent, he could not but express his 
regret at their apathy, and ms fears 
for the consequences. 

He also observed with r^ret, that 
the affairs of South America, teem- 
iiig with importance to the commer- 
ciad interests of this country, were 
touched upon so very slightiy in the 
speech from the throne. The civil, 
political, and commercial improve- 
ments which were becoming daily 
manifest in that part of the world, 
were, he knew, an object of fear 
and jealousy to some of the despots 
of Europe; as if no improvement 

were 



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9 



were to be dlowed to creep fbrtfa^ 
or not to be considered as such, 
unless sut the will of one of the 
corporation of kings^ who arrogated 
to liiemselves the power of dictating 
what they thought proper for the rest 
of mankind. It was, however, a 
satisfaction to find, that there was 
a part of the globe where very differ- 
ent feelings and principles prevailed, 
and were likely .to prevail still more 
extensirely, wnere the principles of 
free government and free trade 'were 
beginning to be understood and 
practised. He was glad to find that 
his majesty's ministers had made a 
recommendation which would tend 
to improve those principles. He was 
not prepared to say whether at the 
present moment, they ought to have 
gone farther, but he hoped they 
would be disposed, at the proper time 
to go farther than they now avowed* 
When it wad known that interest 
existed in Europe to check the risii^ 
power in South America, he thougra 
that we ought to have taken the 
step which we had now taken at an 
earlier period; but still he trusted 
that we should be found ready to 
take every opportunity of increasing 
the advanta^ which that step was 
calculated to give us. If we had been 
taxdy on this occasion, it was a proud 
satis&ction to thiuk that America had, 
on this occasion, taken that decisive 
step well becoming its power, its 
gr^ttness, and its freedom. (Hear, 
near.) As that important decision 
was of the utmost consequence to 
every portion of the wond where 
freedom was valued, he could not 
grudge to the United States the glory 
of having thus early thrown her shield 
over those attempts at freedom, which 
were impcMtant, not merely to Ame- 
rica herself but to the whole world. 
This great question should be viewed 
by qs, not merely with reference to 



its advanta^ to. NorA America, but 
to the British empire ; and particu- 
larly as there might exist a di^xwitioa 
to. exclude as much as possible our 
manufacturers from the European 
markets. Let their lordships look 
to what had happened in the United 
States. There a population oi three 
millions had, in the course of forty 
years, been increased to ten millions* 
In the United Provinces of Spanish 
America, there was at present a po- 
pulation of sixteen millions, exclusive 
of about four millions in the Brazils ; 
and assuming the same ratio of im- 
provement in the coprse of 40 years 
to come, we might have an inter- 
course with a population of from 
50,000,000 to 60,000,000, and that, 
too, a population of a consuming 
character; for from recent calcula- 
tions it was estimated that each person 
consumed to the value of 2L lOs, of 
British manufactures annually. He 
trusted, therefore, that government, 
viewing the magnitude of the rela- 
tions vmich might by timely cultiva- 
tion be brought to exist between this 
country and the Spanish provinces, 
would neglect no opportunity of im- 
proving the advantages which were 
now thrown open to Uiem. When iti 
was now ascertained that the South 
American provinces were in that 
state which precluded all hope of the 
mother country ever regaining any 
power or influence over them, he 
trusted that ministers would neglect 
no occasion of improving every cir- 
cmnstance calculated to give so great 
an extension to our commerce ; and 
thus, by serving the interest of their 
own coimtry, they would let in that 
of those upon whose freedom and 
prosperity so much depended. He 
nad trespassed thus at length upon 
their lordships, because he deeply 
felt its great importance. — There 
were topics of the speech from die 

throne 



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tfaronei which ocndd not be fidly goae 
into on the first day of the seBsion, but 
whkii he could not pass over altoge* 
ther. One, which was alluded to by 
the noble mover, was the question of 
our West India colonies; and a most 
important one it was. Upon this 
topic he fully concurred in what had 
been said, that a great deal should be 
done, but that as litde should be said 
on it as possible. This was a ques- 
tion where it was better to act than 
to speak. He hoped that every thing 
which could be done to reheve the 
negro population would be effected. 
Upon the other topic — that of the 
state of Ireland,— omer and more fit 
occasions would arise for entering 
upon its discussion. He would freely 
Ibdmit that much had been done to 
remove some of the evils which op- 
pressed that countiy, but he would 
wi^ that government would hold out 
a hope mat some farther and more 
effectual methods would be tried to 
remove the evils of that country, the 
roots of ^diich, he thought, lay deeper 
than was believed by many. There 
were two instances in which attempts 
at improvement had been made--one 
was in the forming a new police, and 
the other in the collection of tithes. 
Upon the former, great difficulties 
had always occurred; buthethoi]^t 
they had not been fiiUy met by the 
late regulations. A good dead yet 
remained to be done, and he had 
hopes that the evils arising from 
the want of an effective police would 
be fiilly met at last As to the tithe 
system, he agreed that the late 
measure on that subject had made a 
great opening towards an adjustment 
of the many differences to which 
Ae system had given rise. The 
measure which had been adopted as 
a partial remedy had been successful 
in many instances; but still there 
were some important points on which 



it needed revision. That revision 
would be made, and he was satisfied 
that in the able hands in \diich it 
would be i^aced, every attention 
would be paid which its ereat im- 
portance demanded. He had now 
touched upon the leading topics of 
the speech. It was not his intention 
to oflfer any amendment to the address 
which had been moved, though he 
confessed there were some parts of 
the speech in which he could have 
wished that a more liberal, frank, and 
explicit language had been adopted; 
but with this declaration of his senti- 
ments he should content himself, 
without moving an amendment. 

The earl of Liverpool began by 
observing, that afler m^ able speeches 
ddiveredby the noble lords who had 
moved and seconded the address, he 
might have saved their lordships the 
trouble of a single observation. They 
had touched on die diffetent points 
of the royal speech in a manner 
to satisfy the house as to the pro- 

Pof adopting the address pro- 
in answer to it But as the 
noble marquis, who had just sat 
down, had tnought it right to advert 
to several topics conneded with the 
internal conoition and external rela- 
tions of the countiy in a manner dif- 
ferent from that of his noble friends, 
he (lord Liverpool) would be sorry 
diat the house should rise without 
affording him an opportunity of say- 
ing somediing in reply, lest his si- 
lence should be misconstrued, and 
his sentiments misunderstood. In 
making the few observations witfi 
which he meant to trouble their lord- 
^ps, he would follow the order of 
the speech, or the course pursued bv 
the noble marquis (Lansdown.) Wim 
respect to the internal state of the 
country, it gave him great pleasure 
to say, that all the noble speakers 
who luid preceded him, both sides 

of 



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11 



the boose, and he mi^ add» all 
parties of the nation, agreed On 
this subject there did not exist, and 
could not exist, the slightest differ- 
ence of opinion. He (b^ liveqpool) 
believed ne mi|;fat say—- and he said 
it from a pertect conviction of its 
truth, and not for the purpose of 
employing phrases to produce effect, 
that at no period of our history had 
this country enjoyed a greater or 
more general prosperity; that at no 
period ivas this prospenty more per- 
ceptible in all brandies of our com* 
merce and industry ; and that at no 
period did it so pervade all the great 
interests of the state, and increase the 
coQiforts of all classes. (Hear, hear.) 
The noble marquis, who admitted 
this fact, had congratulated the house 
on the circumstancethat this improve- 
ment in our condition was to be as- 
cribed to natural causes, and was 
therefore likely to be permanent ; and 
he (lord Liverpool) thought it most 
material to observe that our late dis- 
tress bad been removed solely by the 
operation of these causes. Their 
lordships would ro6ollect the time, 
when the impatience of particular 
interests, under the pressure of suf- 
fering, called for relief by partial 
expedients'— when innumerable arti- 
ficial means of prosperity were sug- 
gested to government, and when par- 
fiament was pressed with applications 
to tamper with the pubUc interests 
by l^islative measures. Happily 
their lordships had resisted such ap- 
plications, and in this manner had 
avoided those evils which frecjuently 
sprung from injudicious legislative 
interference. It was, therefore, gra- 
tifying now to find, diat without the 
tampering of parliament the country 
recovered from its distresses by na- 
tural causes. It would generauly be 
aduiowlec^ed by those who reflected 
on the magnitude of the late war, 



diat this oountrv ooidd not be ei^- 
peoted to pass through the struggle 
which it had so long maintained, 
without making exhausting effi>rti, 
and incurring great sacrifices, which, 
though not so sensibly felt at the 
time, could not fiiil ultimately to 
produce their effect on the sources of 
our public prosperity. It was con- 
sistent with general experience, that 
the resuk of these efforts, particularly 
in the case of a successfy war, were 
not felt till afler their terminaiioiL— 
Durii^ the continuance of the strug- 
^e, th^ exhausting effects of exlraor- « 
diimry exertions uid of great expen- 
diture, mi^t be counteracted by 
other causes, rising out of the war 
itself. In the late war, our agricul- 
ture had extended, and our manu- 
factures attained a flourishii^ state, 
by the extraordinary demand oi gc^ 
vemment, by the creation of new 
markets, and by an extraofdinaiy ex- 
penditure: but in returning to a state 
of peace, that expenditure 1^ ceased, 
and the war demand for many articles 
of industry stopped Though the pro- 
perties of some had therefore in- 
creased by the war, thou^ our 
agriculture and manu&ctuies had 
flourished by the consumption which 
the extraordinary government de» 
mand had created, the county of 
necessity was exhausted by its em>itB» 
and on the return of peace was doom- 
ed to suffer from that exhaustion.— 
But, in addition to this cause of our 
late distress, we had another difiiculfy 
to contend with, a difficulty of seri- 
ous and formidable importance— he 
meant a return to a metidlic currency. 
He would not now advert to. the ori- 
gin of this difficulty — ^he would not 
enter into the history of our paper 
circulation, or state the reasons on 
which it was justified— though he 
might, as he had formerly done, state 
it by the way to be his opinion, that 
without 



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without a paper currency we could 
not have earned on the business of 
the country in the momentous period 
through which we had passed, or 
have engaged in those eigantic en- 
terprises which had termmated in the 
liberation of Europe. At the same 
time it was always his invariable 
opinion, that as soon as possible 
after the war we should return to a 
metallic currency. • It would be re- 
memberedy that certain classes in 
this country denied the possibilihr of 
this return — some predicted from 
the measure a national bankruptcy, 
and others declared that if carried 
into effect, it must strike at the root 
of our national prosperity, and would 
render necessary a Change of all our 
social relations, and a new adjust- 
ment of all contracts. But what was 
the result? We now enjoyed the 
benefits and the seciuity of ame^ 
tallic circulation without any nation- 
al bankruptcy, without any adjust- 
ment of contracts, and without any 
violation of the rights of the nationsd 
creditor. (Hear, l^ar.) We had suff- 
ered for a time from those causes, 
from the exhaustion of the .war, and 
from a change in our currency; 
but things had now resumed their 
natural course; we had recover- 
ed, our former prosperity, not 
by temporary expedients, artificial 
means, or violations of our engage- 
ments, but the natural course of 
events, and by a strict adherence to 
pubUc faith. We had learned by 
experience that firmness in adhering 
to a course of action which least 
interferes with the sources of public 
prosperity, is better than temporary 
expedients for relief — ^that honesty, 
in states as well as in individuals, 
is the best policy ; and that all clas- 
ses of society, are best served by 
refraining from violations of the 
r^hts of some for the Jbenefit of 



others. He alluded more particu* 
larly at present to the subject of the 
currency, because too mudi could 
not be said, in praise of the ynse 
and temperate course pursued by 
parliament in effecting the chai^, 
in spite of clamours and fears, and 
because, next to the deliverance of 
Europe, he regarded it as one of 
the greatest efforts of legislative 
courage and firmness. The next 
topic to which the noble marquis 
(Lansdown) had alluded was our 
foreign relations, and particulaiiy 
the invasion of Spain ; and here the 
noble marquis cUd not concur, as 
on the internal state of the nation, 
with his majesty's ministers. Into 
the details of the question respecting 
Spain he (lord Liverpool) would not 
now enter, because in defence of 
the policy pursued by this country, 
in reference to it, he had nothing 
to add to what he had stated last 
session, except that every thing he 
then said had been proved true by 
the course of events. He fiord 
Liverpool) never had hesitated to 
declare that in his opinion France 
had no right to invade Spain. He 
had disapproved of that interference, 
and deprecated that attack — not on 
abstract principles of non-interven- 
tion, and the right of every nation 
to frame its own constitution and 
arrange its own internal affairs, be- 
cause he W3S aware that eveiy ge- 
neral principle admitted of excep- 
tions—but because France could 
make out no specific case which 
gave her any tide to interfere. It 
was his (lord Liverpool's) opinion 
that Spain should have been left 
to herself, and that the factions 
which were alleged to be agitating 
her, should have been allowed to 
settle their differences without fo- 
reign intervention. At the same 
time he felt the danger of the at- 
tack. 



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la 



tack, and was desirous that the evil 
might be allied by some conces- 
sion — ^not a concession to France, 
which had no ri^ht to demand 
one — ^but a concession of Spain to 
herself : in short, by a compromise 
which might have taken awav the 
motive for' invasion. The British 
cabinet had advised this, and could 
do no more. He might now ask, 
whether the constitutional party 
which then held the reins of govern- 
ment, did not regret that they had 
not followed this advice ? This view 
was resisted by the Spaniards. The 
French army entered, and the ease 
with which they obtained possession 
of the country, showed us the wis- 
dom of having abstained from in- 
terfering in the policy of a divided 
nadon. (Hear.) Could their lord- 
ships look at the present state of 
Spain, and recollect the manner in 
mach the French were every where 
received, and say that the consti- 
tution—even allowing it to be a 
model of perfection — ^had fixed its 
roots in the minds of any of the 
considerable body of the people, or 
was the object for which any large 
portion of them was disposed to 
contend ? On the contrary, was it 
not evident, not only that the great 
mzyority, but a majority so great as 
to leave the minori^ an object of 
surprise with us, haded the French 
as friends who came to overthrow 
that constitution ? What did this, 
arise from ? Was there a cbuntiy 
more jealous of foreigners than 
Spain ? Was there a country that 
bad greater reason to resist the 
French than Spain ? Yet, notwith- 
standing this jealousy of foreigners, 
and this dislike to Frenchmen, they 
hailed the French army as deli- 
verers, and thus showed they hated 
the constitution more than either. 
And would it have been wise in this 



oountiy to ei^age in a w^ to sup- 
port a form of government which was 
detested by the great body of the peo- 
ple, and only supported by an insig- 
nificant party ? The noble maiquis 
had alluded to an expression of the 
noble mover, and s^taied that the ul- 
traism which he disliked had now 
been established in Spain. But by 
whom was that ultraism established ? 
Not by the illustrious prince who 
commanded the French army ; for 
here he must say, that however much 
he (lord Liverpool) had at first defne- 
catedthe invasion, he could not with- 
hold his praise f^m that illustrious 
prince, whose wise, firm, and mo- 
derate conduct had been conspicu- 
ous during the whole campaign— 
who, instead of encour^ng Stra> 
ism among the Spaniards, luid done 
every thing to check it ; and wha 
showed in that mission what might 
be expected from him when he 
should ascend the throne of his 
fathers. (Hear, hear. ) The ultra- 
ism complained of was the senti- 
ment of the Spaniards, and not of 
the invaders ; and he (lord liver- 
pool) had no mote idea of sending 
British bayonets to make people free 
against their will, than to enslave 
them against their will. (Hear. ) He 
arrived now at a topic of great in- 
terest — ^the policy pursued by this 
country in regard to Soudi America. 
On this subject the noble marquis 
testified his dissatisfaction with what 
he termed the reserve of the royal 
speech, and demanded further m- 
formation.— In a general exposition 
like that of the roeech, 1^ (lord 
, Liverpool) did not know what more 
could have been said In explain- 
. ing the words made use of, he 
. (lord Liverpool) was prepared to 
. speak with the utmost mmkness. 
If their lordship remembered the 
various discussions that took {^aoe, 

and 



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sttid the differ^t proposals that were 
maile upon the first invasion of 
Spain b]^ Bonaparte, they would 
not require to be remindfed» that 
two courses were recommended by 
their respective paitisans, as fit for 
this country then to pursue. The 
fint was to send troops intoSpain^ 
and to assist the Spaniards in ex- 
pelling the invader ; the second 
was to leave (he ruler of France to 
do what he chose in Spain, and 
to direct our efforts to the establish- 
raent of South American independ- 
ence. — ^Thoee who despaired of suc- 
cess in Spain, made no doubt that 
we could succeed in detaching fit>m 
her the colonies which she then 
possessed, and therefore pressed the 
prosecution of this measure as our 
only rational policy. This, how- 
ever, was not the policy of the 
government, and hr this among 
other reasons— that our efforts, how- 
ever successful, could not thus have 
tenninated in the deliverance of 
Europe. The sword was therefore 
drawn in Spain, and by th6 great 
exploits of nis noUe firiend (the 
doke of Wellington) the invader 
was expelled, and Europe freed 
from hK yoke. — ^When the contest 
was brought to a clo^, and the go- 
vernment of Ferdinand restored, the 
state of the colonies, which during 
the continuance of the war had 
thrown off their allenance, presented 
great dfficulties. we then offered 
our mediation, not for the purpose 
of restoring those which had de- 
clared themselves independent, and 
were determined to maintain their 
independence, but to reconcile those 
that were still willing to be recon- 
ciled to the mother country. That 
mediation was rejected ; but had it 
been accepted in time, Spain miglit 
hsEve saved half her trans-atlantic 
possessions. She had now seen all 



her colonies separated . from her, 
and in the new circumstances in 
which they were placed, we had' 
proceeded opeoly and firaiJdy. The 
noble marquis had said that we had 
taken the first step in acknowledg- 
ing their independence by sending 
consuls!, and he asked what finther 
steps had been taken. Thesq[)eech 
from the throne was explicit on this 
head. Its object was to annoimce 
to the house, to the country, and to 
Europe, that we were wholly un- 
fettered by engagements, either to 
Spain or to our allies, and per- 
fectly free to take that course which 
our own prudence or policy might 
dictate. While he made this ex- 
plicit declaration, he was fiee to 
confoss that practical difficulties 
would occur in our relations or in- 
tercourse with those possessions^ 
tin Spain renounced aU claim to 
their obedience, and recoenized that 
independence de jure which they 
enjoyed de faxio. If a recogni- 
tion of them, therefore, could be 
obtained from Spain, he should 
think it a great object gained.— 
This was, however, what could not 
easily be expected ; but we were not 
bound either by tiie concession or 
the refusal of Spain. — It was an 
impoitant fact to know, that this 
government was perfectly firee and 
unfettered in her policy towards 
South America, whatever coiuse it 
should, in future pursue. (Hear» 
hear.) He came now to a topic on 
which the noble marauis haid not 
touched, and which he tioped would 
be treated with temperate care by 
others— he meant the state of our 
West India possessions. On this 
subject he hoped their lordships 
would do what was right — ^that they 
would obey the dictates of duty, 
both in consulting the improvement 
and protection of the slave, and the 
security 



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wcuii^ and ri^of the planter, 
who had aoquued property under 
ourlauvs: but that they womd avoid 
sdl angry discussion — that they 
would use no intemperate lan- 
guage — ^tbat they woidd avoid tonnes 
of uflammation, not knowii^ to 
what evils inteiAperate or imprudent 
language might lead. (Hear.)— He 
came now to the point alluded to 
by the noble marquifr— he meant 
the fltate of Ireland. Man^ ^W^- 
tunities would occur fiir disdUBsing 
the interests connected with IrelancU 
and 1»& vKrald not* therefore, enter 
upon them at any length now. 
What die noble seconder of the 
addreas bad said, came with peci^ 
liar fbipe from him, on account of 
his residence in that country. His 
012968^*8 government had directed 
their attention to the subject of the 
evils of Irehmd ; but, unfortunately, 
the greatest evils were not of a na- 
ture (0 admit of a legislative re* 
naedy. The noble earl (liveipool) 
then alkded to the state of die po- 
lice, and die effect of the tidie-bill 
pesKd last session. The tithe-lnll 
was discussed at great lensdi last 
session. It was then admitted 
by him that it m^t not have any 
jw^mffKatP effect m removing the 
evils complained of, and that no 
svstem could be corrected at once, 
if^ experiment was limited, we 
at kaat knew where we were, and 
how for we miriit proceed. The 
effect of the bill bad, howe^r, ez« 
ceeded Ins most sanguine expec- 
tation* Out of 966 parishes wtiich 
weie oflfefed for its adoption^ it was 
in actual operation in 216. — Its 
operation had been haj^y esta^ 
biiahed in districts idiere it was most 
necessary, and where die greatest 
difficulties veereto be encoimtered. 
The noble earl conduded by ex« 



pressing a hope that other measures^ 
would soon be matured for the be^ 
nefit of Ireland, and giving his sup- 
port to the address. 

Lord Ifo^fui claimed the indul- 
gence of their lordships for the time 
ne mieht detain diem in discussing a 
few of the topics to which he felt it 
necessary, after what had fellen fifom 
the noble lords who had preceded 
him, to advert. Hedid feel it neces- 
sary to express his own conviction 
that the j^eral tone, and temper, 
and spint of the address wei« not 
such, as in the present state of Ei^> 
rope, ought to be adopted. (Hear.) 
But their lordi^ps would aUow him 
to notice, in the first place, one part 
of that address in which he had the 
pleasure to ss^, he perfecdy concur- 
red; and that was, the portion that 
related to die present improving state 
of the country. He was most happy, 
and even r^udy to acknowledge, mat 
the internal condition of the country 
was much greater, and much more 
flourishing, than it had been, at si- 
milar seasons, in former years. He 
was ready to admowlec]^, also, that 
tfiis prosperity had beoi, in some 
measure, owii^ to the wisdom and 
the firmness of parliament; and he 
was trilling even to confess that, as 
the noble eail hadstated, it vras mainlr 
attributable to the resumption of cash 
payments. (**Hear,*' from lord liver- 
pool.) hide^d, he felt the more anxi- 
ous to express this opinion, because 
he himself (lord HoUand) had been 
one of those who, when that great 
measure was agitated in parliament, 
most warmly opposed to It Appall- 
ed at the possible consequences diat 
might ensue, he certsinly had been 
hr from friendly to die execution of 
a system that he did then believe to 
be fraught with danger ; and wfaidi 
he now acknowledge to have been 

thus 



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thus iiiBtruinental in restoring pros- 
perity to the kingdom. ^Hear, hear.) 
But while he Mi it proper^ and hut 
fair to say thus mtich, he was hy no 
means equally prepared to coincide 
with that nohle loid who had moved 
the address, in maintainii]^ that it was 
likewise &ir to give to h£ majesty's 
sovemment some degree of merit for 
me increasing prosperity of the em- 
pire. Fair indeed ! Why, consider- 
ing under what circumstances it was, 
that the prosperity of the countiy had 
heen of late years so shaken ; and, 
looking to the language which the 
government then held, and remem- 
bering the measures tliat the^ then 
adopted, he, for one, thought it anv 
thinff but fair to give them any sucn 
credit What ! with the noble earl's 
own acknowledgment still in their: 
eais, that the past distresses of the- 
country had been mainly owing to 
those wars in which they had enga-^ 
ged her, were their'lordships to givje 
to his majesty's ministers credit for 
her present prosperity ? What had 
been the noble earPs own and coi^- 
stant answer, when he had been so 
often charged in that house with the 
existence of those distresses ? The 
noble earl, as their lordships could 
not £ul to remember, had been con- 
stantly pleased to throw the whole 
blame of the evil upon protidence. 
(Hear, hear.) That vpas always his 
. excuse, modified, indeed, and varied 
a little from time to time. Some- 
times the immediate cause of public 
distress was referred to the passions ; 
and the noble earl (fiscovered that 
the people of. this country were too 
amorous (a laugh) — that the females 
were too proline— that too large a 
quantity of people was produced, 
^li^ter.) At others, the whole 
evil was deduced from the horrors of 
plenfy— *firom a desperate abundance : 



and the noble earl, surrounded witb 
all the gifts of providence to man^ 
exclaimed vrith die poet-— 

** iBopem me copte fecit.** (A tanigli.^ 

Now thoii^ he (lord Holland) really 
did not t&nk that the noble lord's 
Sequence, highly as he valued and 
respected it, had quite rooted out of 
the bosoms of our young men the 
passion of love (a laugh), nor had 
operated, well as ne knew its extra- 
ordinary powers, to intercept the rays 
of light that ought to have enli^ten- 
ed our globe, 1^ recollected what the 
kingdom had suffered; and therefore, 
now that the country was recovering, 

E joying a pro^Jeri^r, which he 
in God* she might loi^con- 
D enjoy, it was in truth a little 
unfoir for the noble lord to call upon 
the house for such a species of appro- 
bation, and to say, ''look at our works ; 
look what government have done 
now." (Hear.) It was a litde im- 
iair for the noble lord, forgetting the 
preceding distress, to cry out, on 
these ma 



perity — " Look, my lords, at the 
prodi^ous services that have been 
rendered by his majesty's ministers.'* 
It was necessaiyv however, after these 
observations, that he (lord Holland) 
diould address himself to a part of 
'•the speech" which they had heard 
read, that seemed to require some 
remark. It appeared to form one 
of the communications made in the 
speech, or at least something to that 
effect was said, that a convention had 
been entered into with Austria, for 
the re-payment of a part of the sums 
advanced ^her by this country. A 
noble friend, who sat near him, had 

i'ust reminded him that this part was 
>ut a small part of the whole amount 
of such adwices. - He thanked his 
noble friend for the suggestion ; but 

he 



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lie (lord HoUand) was well pleased 
to find that we were likely to get 
back even a small part Tl^re was, 
besides, an old, out very sensible 
proverb, that said — " You are not to 
look a gift horse in the mouth;" tmd 
therefi»re he (lord Holland) was quite 
willing to accept of the part Now 
this partial re-payment, to be sure, 
was any thing but a gift horse ; and, 
indeed, if he mkht oe permitted to 
compare this unfortunate loan to a 
hoise at all, he fancied, that if they 
ventured to look into his mouth, they 
would (fiscover that the mark had 
been out of it a longtime. (Much 
laughter.) And if their loidships 
wmd permit him to borrow once 
more from the same sort of phraseo* 
logy, perhap a political jockey would 
say tnit ** A good deal of work had 
been taken out of him by way of in- 
terest." (Lai]^hter.) For his own 
part, he shoukf be well contented, if 
It should torn out that they got back 
enough to pay for the expenses of 
lord Stewaitfs embassy to Vienna, 
A noble friend of his (lord Holland's) 
had said that it was to lord Stewart 
that this proposed re-payment was 
prindpallv owine; and though veiy 
poasibly d^t noble lord might have 
had some share in effecting the bu- 
siness, he (lord Holland) felt inclined 
to believe that as great a part, or a 
ereater part of the merit rested with 
me noble duke who had first set on 
foot the negodation. But in the 
name of candour, let all parties have 
a litde of this merit allotted to them. 
(Hear.) Something might be due to 
his majes^*s ministers, in the first 
place, for negociating about the mat- 
ter; and that share— albeit, unused 
to praise in such a quarter — ^he freely 
conceded to the government Some 
inerit again must be due to the em- 
peror of Austria ; and that he (lord 
Holland) referred to the emperor per- 
1824.] 



sonally ; for where there existed no 
constitution, he was compelled to be- 
lieve that it was the monarch's own 
act ; and done, not only without the 
advice, but in a spirit entirely contrary 
tothe wishes of his ministers. (Hear.) 
But having thus apportioned out the 
merit, by giving ^ utde credit to hb 
maje^'s government, a litde to the 
noble duke, and a little to the em- 
peror of Austria, he did hope that his 
side of the house woxild come in also 
for a litde share. (Cheers and a 
laugh.) He did hope that this mat« 
ter would have a good effect in mak- 
ing his majesty's ministers think dif- 
ferently about the opinions and the 
public conduct of noble lords around 
nim. 

He trusted that the noble president 
of the council, for instance, (the earl 
of Harrowby) would not now say, as 
he had formerly so strenuously con- 
tended, that at all times and under 
all circumstances, and in whatever 
condition the political relations of the 
country might be, it behoved noble 
lords to observe all the prim pro- 
prices of debate. (A laugh.) The 
strong opinions, which he (lord Hol- 
land) and his noble relations, and so 
many other lords had lately expressed, 
might have occasionally violated the 
prim proprieties of debate ; but clear 
it was, that the language which had 
been held in parliament, very objec- 
tionable, as to some it seemed to be, 
had led to the refunding of no incon- 
siderable sum of money. The next 
topic upon which he would touch, 
was one of great moment ; and one 
in respect of which he fully concur- 
red with the wise observation that 
had been made by his noble relation 
(lord Lansdown,) that it was wiser to 
act than to speak. It was a subject 
upon which, if noble lords came to 
estimate the comparative degrees of 
praise or blame that were to be attn^ 
B buted 



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buted to parties, eveiy candid j^rson 
must acknowledge, thai his miyesty's 
ministers, and t£at house (including, 
he was sony to say, the body of pubhc 
men to which he belonged,) and the 
West India colonists, and the planters, 
and the African association, and, if he 
might dare to say so, the house of 
commons itself, were liable to seri- 
ous blame. He should not have 
dwolt so much on this subject, the 
condition of our West Indian posses- 
sions, had not that question occupied 
so large a portion of the speech as it 
did. It afforded him satisfaction, 
however, to say, that of this portion 
generally he highly approved. Per- 
haps, indeed, he might question in 
some degree, the pcmcy or the pro- 
priety of his majesty's ministers in 
dwelling so much, in such a speech, 
upoh a subject of this nature. He 
could very well understand the pro- 
priety and even prudence of his 
majesty in coming down to his par- 
liament, or communicating with them, 
in order that they might advise the 
executive government how to act, in 
regard to any extraordinary emer- 
gency arising within his extensive 
empire; but he (lord Holland) did 
not understand upon what principle 
it was, that his majesty, upon this oc- 
casion, came to the paniamentof Great 
Britain, asking them to proceed in the 
measures to he taken with r^ard to 
the civilization of the West India 
daves. If this was meant, as most 
probable it was, to allude to an aug- 
mentation of troops in those colonies, 
- he (lord Holland) could have wished, 
considering the present feverish state 
of men's minds there, that while the 
government were recommending cau- 
tion, they had themselves observed it 
better in the language of their recom- 
mendation. If It was meant merely 
to call upon their lordships and the 
other house of parliament to augment 



the force in the island lately alluded 
to, and the other British West India 
iskuids; in that call he most readily 
concurred (hear, hear) ; and he was 
the more induced to say this, because 
as he had been ready on former occa- 
sions to oppose, and might hereafter 
oppose, as in other parts of the em- 
pire, the increase of the army, so he 
was ready to admit, that in the present 
state of things, it might be necessary 
that the military feroe of the empire 
should be increased. Nor could he 
help observing, that with respect to 
that island, wiui which he himself was . 
more particularly connected, Jamaica, 
and speaking with reference to its se- 
curity from internal insurrection and 
external attack, and the morals and 
comforts, and most especially the 
health of his majesty's soldiers, he 
could much wish that the attention of 
his majesty's government, or of the 
illustrious commander-in-chief, might 
be turned to the effecting a better £s- 
tribution of forces in uiat country. 
Tins improved distribution might be 
made with great advantage. — ^The 
measures which he (lord Holland) 
had heard suggested in this respect, 
were — ^the destruction of the batteries 
and forts erected on various parts of 
the coast; the quarteriiig the euro- 
pean troops amcng the Blue Moun* 
tains, which alone suppUed the springs 
of the countiy ; and tiie formation of 
a naval arsciial at a position caUed 
Fort Antonio. This information he 
had derived from a gallant and intelli- 
gent friend, of whom he could never 
speak but in terms of the behest res- 
pect and approbation, but who was no 
longer a member of either house of 
parfiament, — major-generalWalpoIe* 
He entertained this feeling for a gal- 
lant individual, not merely because it 
was at all times pleasant to speak 
handsomely of one's friend, but be- 
cause such ai^lause was due to his 
exalted 



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19 



exalted public chaiacter» to his very 
superior talents, his experience, and 
above all to the humanity evinced by 
him in the care of his men. This 
gentlenia]i*s experience had well qua- 
Hfied him to suggest to thegovemment 
at home such improvements as might 
most advantageously be made in me 
defence and government of the island. 
—His information was derived from 
evidence of his own senses, furnished 
during a long and fatiguing service in 
Jamaica. Noble lords would per- 
ceive that he (lord Holland) was 
speaking of the Maroon war, by the 
skilful management, and the equitable 
proceedings, and the good fate of 
general Walpole, were reduced and 
brought into obedience to the govern- 
ment If ever the British troops in 
Jamaica, should be required to act 
there upon any similar occasion, as he 
(lord Holland) earnestly hoped they 
never VTOuld be, he could ask nothing 
better for his country, nor for them, 
than that they might be commanded 
by some ofncer of equal humanity, 
skill and enterprise with his friend 
general Walpole. (Hear.) He (lord 
Holland) would now advert to those 
parts of the speech which would justify 
Ae vote he should give to-night ; and 
he confessed that upon the whole the 
tone and temper ot that speech had 
disappointed him. Much more, how- 
ever, bad he been disappointed by the 
comments that he had heard upon it 
He did hold that the state in which 
this countiy stood with relation to the 
other powers of europe, was a veiy 
different one firom that which would 
pistify any thing like exultation, joy, 
or self-congratulation. That it was 
fraught with inevitable disastrous con- 
sequences to this country, he was not, 
posably, prepared to say; but he 
was very sure that it was a state at 
ODce new and awfuL Since their 
lordships had last met in that bouse. 



what had beMen the constitution of 
Spain? For, torture the thing as they 
would^ it was the Spanish constitu- 
tion ; and as to what had been said 
about its being dcuocratical, the feet 
was, it was considerably less so than 
our own. But whether it was so or 
not, or whether it incurred the dislike, 
or met with the approbation of the 
Spanish people, this fact at least was 
but too well known — ^namely, that 
the government of France was at this 
moment in military possession of 
Spain. (Hear.)— That it shodd be 
so, and that we should not interfere 
to prevent it, might be expedient, or it 
might be unadvisable : out that the 
noble lord who had moved this address 
should say that this circumstance was 
matter or satisfaction, (hear, hear) ; 
or, if he had not said so in terms, 
he had said this in effect, that it 
should be matter of sajlisfi5ulion and 
joy to their lordships, (hear) ; this did 
seem truly wondenid. To him (lord 
Holland) it seemed that the present 
state of Europe was calcuMed to 
awaken the liveliest and most painful 
anxiety in every English mind. Put- 
ting aside all considerations attachiiig 
to tne interests and intrigues of Russia 
and the other powers, me present state 
of europe to hia (lord Holland's) 
mind, was fraught with consequences 
the most terrible to this coimtry. The 
noble lord who had seconded the mo- 
tion, had made some allusion to the 
early period of the French revolution, 
and the respective condition of France 
and England at that time. Let noble 
lords compare the two periods a litde» 
and he thought th^ would concur 
with him (lord Holland) who con- 
tended that within the last five or 
seven years this govenunent jiad fre- 
quently departed from that which was 
me ancient policy of England, ay, — 
and from the very policy (erroneously 
applied, as in his mind it was) that 

they 



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they had adopted at the oommence- 
ment of the French revolution. That 
departure, he did maihtain, had led 
to an event which formerly it had 
been at all times our great object to 
prevent; and in that event there were 
many signs that threatened the peace 
and happiness of these kingdoms, and 
upon the aspect of which it was highly 
important tnat they who were intrust- 
ed with the government of the empire 
should deliberate, determine, and 
finally act And what had been that 
ancient poU<^, a deviation from which 
had proGuced so threatening an event ? 
Their lordships well knew that it had 
ever been to prevent the too great 
preponderance of any jpower in eu- 
rope, and especially ot those coun- 
tries which border on the ocean. Op- 
posite to us were the coasts of France 
and Spain ; but it must be unneces- 
sary to show that it was ever held in 
England, that if the powers and re- 
sources of those two countries were 
wiekled by one hand, one power, 
their united energies must be exerted 
to the injury and the peril of this 
empire. Such being the case, it ap- 
peared to him of sin^jlarly litde con- 
sequence in what name they were so 
wielded ; or whether they were put 
in commission, or sustained in one 
name ; whether the wielder of them 
were called the ^' Grand Monarque," 
or " La Grand Nation"— the *« Mock 
Christian King," or *< Napoleon 
Bonaparte," or "the Holy Alli- 
ance." (Laughter.) It was all the 
same thing, if the power of the two 
countries was sovemed by one wilL 

The noble lord had alluded to the 
commencement of the French revo- 
lution, at a period preceding the 
decree aof the 19th of November. 
That decree held out to eveiy nation 
that mi^t be disposed to throw off 
its allegiance, a {»omise of assist- 
ance against its government The 



war declared by England in con- 
sequence, was allowed to be, if not 
a wise one, a just one ; just, if not 
vnth Spain and Holland, yet at least 
with France. But why ? Because 
the French government was a demo- 
cratical one ? (Hear, hear.) No ; 
but because this proceeding of theirs 
went to establish the right of inter- 
ference with the government of other 
states. (Hear, hear, hear.) It mat- 
tered not what might be the effect 
or the form of that interference. If, 
at this day, the people of France 
chose to say to us in England, 
" We will establish over you a ty- 
ranny or a monarclw"^-or even if 
they were to say, "We will prepare 
for you a beautiful and unimpeach- 
able constitution; and we will do 
so by force and by our bayonets" 
(a laugh) ; that woxild be a good and 
justifi^le cause of war ; for in the 
cases he had put, wherein consisted 
the difference ? It was of no moment 
whether the constitution were demo- 
cratical or monarchical ; the objec- 
tion lay to that domineering and 
intolerable principle, that the people 
of one countiy have a right to m- 
terfere with the government of a- 
nother. At present, moreover, the 
case was, not that there had been a 
decree passed on the 19th of No- 
vember, which was afterwards to be 
enforced ; but that the king of 
France had enforced it by the eva- 
sion of an ancient treaty, the in- 
vasion of another kingdom, and 
his present actual possession of it. 
Eqiudly clear it was, that it made 
no difference whedier these effects 
were worked by a league or by an 
individual, by one man or by more 
than one. That it was formeriy 
our object to prevent this danger- 
ous union of power, was as little to 
be doubted, as the fact of such an 
union now existing was to be de- 
nied* 



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med. That fact was acknowledged 
in the tide set up by the paity» 
and commented on, intelligibly 
enoagh, by their conduct. It was 
true that England mi^ be said to 
have declined becoming a party to 
Yuch a league* She lierself had 
once been divided between two dif- 
ferent political sects, calling them- 
selves wfaigs and tones ; but both 
•of them professing to act for the 
wel&re of their country, and at least 
concurring in that principal object 
The whigs conceived it necessary to 
her pron>erity that the crown of 
Great Bntain should form a part of 
the alliance in which the greater 
number of the european states were 
engaged for the preservation of the 
balance of power. This was the 
principle on which the great lord 
Somers engaged in a war in king 
William &e Third's time; it was 
the principle of George the First's 
war ; of the great lord Chatham's ; 
and, in «ome sort, it was adopted 
even by the great lord Chatham's 
great son. It was again recognized 
m die time of sir Robert Walpole. 
Ibe goverment of those days hoped 
to hold the balance of Europe, even 
between contendii^ nations; and 
both parties, whigs and tones, com- 
bined for the attainment of this 
common object Since the year 
1815, however, this ancient system 
had gone by ; and it was clear from 
the existing state of things, that un- 
der the confederacy which was then 
formed, it could have no existence. 
Where all the powerful states of 
europe were to be the arbiters, diere 
could be no equitable arbitration — 
where all the weight of european 
power was thrown into one scale, 
there could be no counterpoise. To 
his majesty's ministers, who firat 
consented to that confederacy, and 
particularly to the late foreign secre- 



tary, he gave fuU credit for good 
intentions. When Bonaparte had 
still arrayed around him all ihe re- 
sources of France, with all her ener- 
gies at his command, he (lord 
Holland) should have concurred in 
thinking that some effectual coun- 
terpoise was needed ; especially as, 
looking to those resources and to the 
temper of the extraordinary man 
by whom they were commantied, 
the securitjTof England seemed to 
demand it The government of that 
day thoi^t proper therefore to arm 
against him Spain, Russia, Prussia, 
and the other confederated powers. 
But when in a course of events 
which he (lord Holland) should ever 
think imfortunate, France became 
the portion of a nominee of that 
confederacy, it became hostile to 
the welfere of europe. Whether 
the king of France became a mem- 
ber by accident or design, he knew 
not It was only too clear that he 
had become a party. Whv then, 
what was the meanuig of this por- 
tentous alliance of sovereigns ? That 
the sovereigns of mankind should 
league togetiier was nothing new ; 
for it was one of the oldest of 
leagues. But leagued they were, 
and against whom ? (hear, hear.) 
If all the sovereigns were leagued, 
against whom comd it be but their 
own subjects ? With what other 
purpose could they confederate but 
to support each in governing their 
own subjects by their own will? 
In repressing every institution that 
might hold out to their people free- 
dom of action > (hear, hear.) And 
in divesting themselves of all respon- 
sibility whatever, under any possible 
case ofmisgovemment or mcapa^- 
city ? (hear, hear.) Let noble lords 
mark what had been their conduct 
The noble foreign secretary of that 
day assured the parliament diat it 

was 



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was a very hannless alliance indeed ; 
that there was nothing in its prin* 
ciples which appeared injurious to 
the interests of Great Britain; but 
that owing to some peculiarities in 
the constitution, the king of England 
could not become a party to it In 
point of fact, it turned out that this 
objection, in form as the noble se- 
cretary put it, was an objection in 
law, and to the whole question ; for, 
fortunately, the constitution did pro- 
vide that we could have no such 
connexions with foreign powers, 
without havine some responsible 
aeent But the meaning of the 
omer parties was soon known, for 
they explained it by their own cir- 
culars. It was, forsooth, the mo- 
narchical principle. And what was 
this monaichiod principle ? The 
right of one man to govern many. 
It was legitimacy, not in the true 
sense of i&A word, but the establish- 
ment of military power in every coim- 
try where herediiaiy princes were 
established, for their support, even 
after their misgovemment should 
have forfeited their hereditaiy ri^ht, 
or that the circumstances of uie tune 
should require a dynasty. The no- 
ble lord next adverted to the case of 
Naples, and to the conduct of the 
late noble foreign secretary, who, 
disapproving partially of some of the 
procc«dii^ of the holy aUianoe, 
seemed kindly to have furnished 
Austria with some hints as to the 
measures she should adopt in order 
to prevent a rupture with this coun- 
try. He (lord Holland) was very 
sure that his majesty's ministers 
would think with him, that from that 
time they were no members of the 
x»niederacy. They retired from it, 
in truth, but it was with something 
like ill grace, for they resembled her 
who <<not accepting, did but half 
refuse." The noble lord observed. 



in respect of the conquest of Na|^es, 
that with whatever view it mi^t 
have been projected and achieved, 
there W3a nothing in it that could pvt 
the safety of this country in jeopardy ; 
for doubdess, of all the members of 
that confederacy, that one wfaidi 
was least likdy to produce harm to 
Great Britain was Austria. The prin- 
ciples on which Austria had acted* 
seeming to dictate some other attack* 
led other arms to the invasion of 
Spain. Russia, at first covertly, but 
afterwards more openly, expressed 
her opinion, that according to the 
principles of the alliance, they were 
[)ouna to interfere with the revolu- 
tionists of Spain. <^ I know not," 
continued his lordship* '* what was 
the motive which actuated Russia 
upon this occasion — ^vehether it was 
^maticism or zeal, or whether it was 
in pursuance of that system of ag- 
grandizement and intenereiioe upon 
which, after embroiling a neighbour- 
ing country (Poland), she ras suc- 
ceeded in possessing herself of the 
larger portions of her territory— of 
one of the finest parts of whaJ: she 
calls tfie vrestem territory of europe." 
Having taken these resolutions, tnese 
holy ^lies issued their anathemas 
agamst constitotional Spain, and 
summoned their troops to the cnt- 
sade which th^ proclaimed s^ainst 
the enemies of the monardiical 
principle. The other princes of 
europe, if they did vmver, wavered 
not from any distaste for this cru- 
sade, but from a fear of the conse- 
quences of their embarking in it. It 
was notthat they distrusted the fide- 
lity of their own armies, but that 
they doubted the opposition of Great 
Britain. When, however, they had 
'"^surmounted these fears, ^ey fell at 
once to the execution of those pro- 
jects which were most congenial to 
the principles of their association. 

To 



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23 



To their banners repaired tdtras and 
priestB, zealous for the monarchical 
principle; furious fenatics, and a 
.lioentious soldiery; in short, every 
description of bold and bad men, 
who were allured by hopes of plun- 
der, or by die confidence that they 
mi^ insult the authority of Great 
Bntain with impimity. M. Cha- 
teaubriand, who well understood the 
character of his own countrymen, 
knew ^t by holding out any pros- 
pect of conquest in a foreign eoun- 
tiy, he secured (be fevour and good 
widies of almost aU France, and 
even of the greater part of the Napo- 
leonists themselves. 

He perfecdy understood, as ap- 
plied to Frenchmen, the value of 
that maxim, ** Dominationem super 
aUoSt od servitmrn mum merceaem 
danL'' But a noble lord had that 
night spoken of the freedom at pre- 
sent enjoyed in France. Why, was 
there any thing like freedom m any 
part of France at this moment ? He 
(lord Holland) might be told of their 
legislative chambers and their de- 
bates ; of their president, and thdr 
ibrms : but he did not look to these 
externals. Did he look to the mere 
maajatraJtuwnnondna? Did he look 
to Uieir forum ? or to that place in 
which their folly committed its most 
diigorting excesses ? «« Why," add- 
ed the noble lord, with much em- 
phasis, <* is there any place in France 
where a man may stand up and say 
what I have been just saying? 
(Cheers, and laughter.) I do not 
dunk) indeed, tlmt the noble earl 
opposite (lord Liverpool), even if he 
were a despot, could so Us overcome 
the natural goodness of his disposi- 
tion, as to send m^ to prison for the 
warmth of my language ; but thank 
God, s^ lorcb, J know ^lat he can- 
not.'* (Lausfater.) He did contend 
that the noble lord had insdted the 
sacred name of freedom, when he 



named a country in which the lan- 
gus^ of freemen could not be spo- 
ken m the presence of power. Where 
men could not speak, and speak out, 
upon their own concerns, tnere was 
no freedom, there was no country, 
there was no law ; and where was it 
upon the continent of Europe that a 
man might so speak in public? 
(Hear, near.) A noble lord near 
him, to whom he was much obliged 
for the suggestion, had just inti- 
mated to him that he ought to except 
the kingdom of die Netherlan«. 
And this was true ; for never was 
there a country where the govern- 
ment had shewn itself more anxious 
to preserve the freedom it possesses 
tluuii that of the Netherlands — ^an 
anxiety which was to be traced to 
a similarity in the habits and the 
character of the people to the 
character and the habits of our own 
countrymen. But he now besou^t 
the house to mark what the actual 
eovemment of France had done, h 
had placed that nation in a situation 
by which it was enabled to produce 
greater dan^ to europe than ever 
Napoleon, in all the plenitude of his 
power, could have effected. It was 
m the frill possession of Spain ; it 
possessed at least a preponderating' 
miluence in the councils of Portugal ; 
its army was flushed with recent 
success, and was led by a prince, 
who, as the noble lord (Liverpool) 
had truly said, possessed considerable 
talent, and had displayed character 
and conduct sufficient to lead him on 
to other successes, which might tend, 
as those in Spain had done, to the 
glory and aggrandizement of France. 
It had, besides, a clergy and priest- 
hood of vehement zeal, and devoted 
to the government Its l^islative 
body hid just power enough to lay 
the resources of the people at the 
feet of the ruling power, but not fel- 
low-feeling enoi^ with the people 

to 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



to direct those resouroes wisely and 
resolutely. It was, moreover^ the 
heaif of a<x>nfederacy which united 
all the powers of the continent of 
Europe. Such was the condition of 
France : and was this, he asked, a 
state of things at all satisfactory to the 
feeling of uose who were interested 
in preserving the liberties of Europe ? 
Here he felt it necessaiy to allude to 
an assertion of the noole lord (Li- 
verpool), who said that he had de- 
precated the mvasion of Spain by 
France. It was true he did so ; but 
in what way? It was merelv by 
insisting upon the great ingiprobability 
of the success of that invasion. The 
whole tenor of the despatches and 
remonstrances was to this effect : the 
language of the government was con- 
stantly full of the inevitable great 
loss of men, the uncertainty of the 
conquest, the nature of the Spanish 
people. All these points were re- 
peatedly ui^ed to the French govern- 
ment, and particularly by th^ noble 
duke (Wellington), who knew thar 
(oTcej and who, he was sure, would 
spurn the imputation that he used any 
aiguments contraiy to his most stead- 
fiist conviction. Why, then, although 
the noble lord had deprecated thus 
war, what had been the result of his 
deprecation? This dehortation, or 
remonstrance, or admonition on the 
part of Great Britain, had produced 
no effect at all. It had been fine- 
quently said, in allusion to that loi^ 
war which b^an with the French 
revolution, that one of its best conse- 
quences was, that the dignity of Ei^- 
land had been exalted, ana that £e 
had been placed in such a situation 
among the powers of eurppe, as 
enablei her to decide on the fate of 
nations. Let this assertion be tried 
in the instance of Spain. What had 
been done there recendy , was don^n- 
dependendy of England : it mattered 
not whether it was good or bad ; for 



if it were good, thai the good had 
been effected without the assislaDoe 
of England — if evil, it had been 
vnought in spite of her remonstrance, 
and against tier interests. Was this 
not so ? This, then, brought him to 
that part of the address which touchiMi 
upon the affairs of Spain — ^in all of 
which he could see no ground for 
that self-conpatulation which the 
government (krived from the policy 
Uievhad adopted. They might have 
said, that former wars had so ex- 
hausted our resouroes, that we could 
no longer keep up our'old character 
as the champion of the freedom of 
all europe : they might have said 
(though that would have been a 
strange doctrine indeed), that we had 
nothmg to do with the contest. They 
might have borrowed words torn 
that eloquent person who ** tricks 
out eloquence in all its bravery," 
and have described the happiness 
and advantages which we had deri- 
ved from standing by in strict and 
immoveable neutrality. They might 
have told us, as that same eloquent 
person (Mr. Canning) had formeriy 
done, that it would be Quixodc to 
interfere. Although he (lord Hol- 
land) thought that they would do 
wisely to renoimce even aU that 
high-minded and disinterested chi- 
valry, if at the same time they would 
flin^ away all the crazy follies which 
distinguished the knight of La Man- 
eha, sdll there was one part of his 
character which they might have as- 
sumed with decency and propriety — 
they might have appeared at least as 
the kni^ts of the sorrowful counte- 
nance. (Laughter.) If they could 
not prevent, mey ought to regret, this 
war; they should express disap- 
pointment — bitter ana moxtifying 
disappointment — ^not make it a theme 
for carou^d and rejoicing. When 
he thoi^ht of what England had 
formerly done — ^what sacrifices she 

had 



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25 



had made in causes similar to that of 
^)ain ; — when he remembered that 
it was to unspotted honesty in her 
transactions with other countries that 
she was indebted for her high station 
in emope, he could not but think, 
that it would have been more fitting 
for the minister to comedown to the 
house, and say with respect to this 
confederacy — 

** O peen of RngHmd, diameftd is tliLi league ! 
Ctticelling yoor Aune ; 



Blotting yonr names tnm books of memory ; 
Raxing file characters ot your renown : 
Ileftcing nHmnnents of conqneied Fiance ; 
Undoing all, as aS bad never been !" 

Instead of this, however, they found 
cause of coneratulation ; and neither 
keefnng up &e character of the ro- 
mantic kni^it, nor adopting the 
sentiments of the poet, they soi%ht 
to make noodles and doodles of 
every body, and required that the 
hce of europe shoutd " v^^ear one 
universal grm." (Laughter.) The 
ministers, nowever, might perhaps 
say they thought the success of 
France of no consequence at all : he 
(lord Holland) thought very difTe- 
rently. So important did he consi- 
der that success, that he thou^t it 
would behove the government of 
England to consider deeply and 
promptly whether it was consistent 
with her reputation and her interests 
to form a pait of the confederacy. 
They should be prepared to decide 
whether they oi^t to remain in it ; 
and to diink well whether its opera- 
tions were not, in fact, directed 
against die security of europe. Vi^ 
on this subject he could submit 
msoky important points to the consi- 
deration of their lordshins, but at the 
present moment he shoiud forbear to 
do so. It was, however, notorious, 
that in that oonfederag^ there were 
persons who were the avovired ene- 
mies to the freedom of discussion 
and the fireedom of the press which 



existed in this country, and to the 
free language which was used in that 
house. He had no doubt there were 
many persons in the cabinets of the 
eovemments which composed that 
kague, who feh, in no small degree 
angry, that men in England should 
not hesitate to call bankruptcy and 
want of faith by their r^ht names. 
It would be recollected, too, that cer- 
tain members of that confederacy 
owed the success of some of theur 

Elans, in a great measure, to their 
aving enga^d religious fanaticism 
in their cause ; and that, although 
their means of hurting our commerce 
were haf^ily limited, they had not 
hesitated to throw sudi impediments 
in its way as they could. It might, 
then, be questionable, whether it 
woukl not be wise to destroy this 
confederacy, and return to the old 
policy of preserving the balance of 
power in europe ; or it might be 
advisable to keep up a power similar 
to that o£ the protestant party, vi^ch 
in former times had answered the 
same purpose ; or it might seem ex- 
pedient to separate and sever our in- 
terests from the old world, and, 
looking to the United States and the 
republics of South America, to form 
some new system of alliance, and 
create some new balance of power. 
This he, however, thought was not 
the moment nor the place for agita- 
ting such questions; but the time 
was approaching when the choice 
must be made — ^when some system 
must be adopted, and any would be 
better that none. It would be im- 

rible effectually to contend with 
power of thaf system whidi was 
uniformly, silently, and ably pur- 
sued. In the long run, the resources 
even of the people of England, brave 
and patient as they were, would not 
be equal to that power. He sincerely 
hoped that those persons, whoever 

ttey 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



they might be» who should have the 
direction of the councils of the king- 
dom, would, when the time for ma- 
king that choice should come, choose 
wisely, and he trusted it would come 
soon. If they did not, the nation 
would certainly he brou^t to dis- 
grace, possibly to ruin and extinc- 
tion ; ^ and this fate, if the op- 
portunity of averting it were neg- 
lected, would be fmly deserved.-— 
(Hear.) 

Lord HoUand asked whether it 
was the intention of his majesty's 
ministers to lay any papers on the 
table respecting the n^odations 
which haa taken place between Tur- 
key and Russia. 

Lord Liverpool replied, that he 
was not aware of any such papers 
which it was proposed to communi- 
cate to the house. 

Their lordships then adjourned at 
nine o'clock. 

HousB of Commons^ Feb. 3. — 
This being the day to which parlia- 
ment was prorogued for the d^spatch 
of business, me house met ac- 
cordingly. 

The speaker took the chair at a 
quarter oefore three o'cleck ; soon 
after which, sir Thomas Tyrwhitt, 
usher of the black rod, summoned 
the house to the house of lords, to 
hear the ccMnmission from lus ma- 
jesty for opening the session read. 
After having been absent for about a 
quarter of an hour, the speaker re- 
turned, and passed through the house 
to his private room. He resumed 
the chair at a few minutes before 
four o'clock, at which hour there 
was rather a full attendance of 
members. 

The speaker informed the house, 
that he had, pursuant to act of par- 
liament, issued writs for the return 
of new members — for Lincolnshire, 
in the room of the hon. Charles An- 



derson Pelham, now lord Yarbo- 
roi^h ; and for the borourii of Lis- 
keara, in die room of the non. Wil- • 
liam Eliot, now earl of St. Ger- 
mains. 

The new members then toc^ the 
oaths and their seats. 

Mr. Lu^ixngton mdved for new 
writs for the return of members — for 
the borough of Eye, *in the room of 
sir Robert Gilford, who had aoogpted 
the office of lord chief justice of^die 
court of common pleas ; for the bo- 
rough of Ashburton, in the room of 
sir J. Singleton Copley, who had 
accepted the office of ms majesty^s 
attorney-general ; for the citv^ of 
Oxford, in the roomof Oharles We- 
therell, esq. who had accepted the 
office of his majesty's solicitor-gene- 
ral ; for Wigton, in the room of sir 
John Osbom ; for Sandwich, in the 
room of Joseph Marryat, esq. de- 
ceased; for the county of Cavan, in 
the room of the right hon. J. Max- 
well Barry, now e^ of Famham ; 
and for Dumfries, in the room of 
William' Robert Keith Douglas, esq. 
who had accepted the office of one 
of die lords of the admirator. 

Lord WtUican Fizgercud moved 
for a new writ for the return of a 
member for the county of Louth, in 
the room of the ri^ hon. Thomas 
Henry Skefimgton, now a peer. 

TbB clan<&tine outlawry bill 
passed through the usual form. 

The speaker then said, that the 
house attended in the house of lordsy 
to hear the royal speech read by 
commission, a copy of which he 
would then read. 

The address was moved by Mr. 
Him which, as usual, was an echo 
of die speech. Mr. Hill was fol- 
lowed by Mr. Daly 9 who concluded 
by expres^ng the pleasure he felt in 
seconding the address. 

The speaker then read the address 
bom 



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firom the cfaair, and, on the question 
beins put — 

Mr, Brougham rose. He said 
tha^ he rose thus early to press iipon 
the attention of the house chiefly in 
consequence of the .observations 
which had ^en from the hon. mem- 
ber who had so eloquently seconded 
the motion for the address. With 
respect to the speech itself, he was 
in the same situation in which he 
believed the great majority of the 
members of tl^t house found them- 
selves on the present night, when 
they heard for the first time the topics 
of UMs speech, save what they deaned 
by hearsay in the morning, ttirough 
the various channels of communica^ 
tion open to them — ^pardy, inde^, 
thiougn the English newspapers, 
and partly, also, tmough the foreign ; 
for through the one, as through the 
odier, they had had anticipations of, 
he believed, equal accuracy. He 
should therefore wish, considering 
the great importance of the occasion, 
the greater importance of the crisis, . 
and the magnitude of the topics, 
which such a speech must necessarily 
embrace — ^he could wish, he saidf, 
on this occasion, and now more than 
on any within his memory, to be 
allowed to recur to the good old- 
established practice of consideration 
before they discussed the speech 
firom the throne, and not to he driven 
prematurely, and in a state of com- 
parative ignorance, to do that which, 
in whatever way it could be viewed, 
amounted to nothing more nor less 
than to commit themselves to the 
adoption of certain propositions, 
which were precipitated into their 
view by his majesty^s ministers on 
the very first day of the session. 
(Hear.) But as he knew litde of the 
contents of the speech, except from 
the sources to which he had already 
referred, and as he had only heard 



the subjects therein referred to glan- 
ced at and elucidated in the speech 
of the hon. seconder, not having had 
the advantage of hearing the hon. 
mover^s speech, he haa only the 
power, upon the spur of the occa- 
sion, to notice such arguments as he 
had heard in support of the topics, 
in a speech wluch he had not the 
opportunity of considering ; and the 
consideration of which, he was afiraid^ 
he had no chance of inducing the 
house, according to the good old 
practice, to postpone. Tl^ were» 
mdeed, certain expressi<»is and opi- 
nions which had crossed the lips of 
the hoR. seconder which he had 
heard with great deUght ; and so, on 
the other band, there were others 
which he had used, to which he 
could not defer his opposition one 
moment, and the policy and prin- 
ciple of which he must positively 
contradict Fortheformer—- namely, 
the parts of the hon. member's 
speech which gave him the warmest 
pleasure, he had to refer to his con- 
cluding observations, which, consi- 
dering the occasion when he utteied 
them, his situation, and the circum- 
stances when he avowed such princi- 
ples, were not only worthy of tl^ 
age in which the hon. member Uved, 
but afforded some presage that die 
time had at length arrived, when that 
disgraceful system under which Ire- 
land had been so long misgoverned 
was to be abandoned, and when that 
unhappy country was at length to be 
ruled on some constitutional, inteUi- 
ble, and consistent mode of govern- 
ment (hear, hear) ; and not by hav- 
ing one officer in its administration 
80 placed, and so acting, as to thwart 
another, or both of them so relatively 
situated in the scale oif their system, 
as to be neutralised by a power which 
worked at home, and which they 
were afraid to strike ; or, by not be- 
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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



ing allowed to carry with them any 
settled determination to act entirely 
for tlie henefit of the people and the 
tranquillily of the state. It was time 
that an avowal should he made of 
tsome wish to give to Ireland the hene- 
fit of constitutional freedom — of that 
practical administration of good laws, 
which was the real and h^ mode of 
Becuring the puhlic co-operation in 
their bSialf : it was time to hold out 
that hope to a suffering and long 
misgoverned people, who had, to use 
the eloquent language of the hon. 
seconder, only known the British 
constitution hy the hars which shut 
it out from them. (Hear, hear.) If 
this were the new and gDod poHcy 
'which was to dawn upon Ireland, ha 
hailed its approach, not alone as tlie 
greatest hlessins which could he he- 
stowed upon mat afflicted people, 
hut as the most certain means of ex- 
tending concord among all classes of 
his majesty's subjects, and making 
them more generally useful to the 
empire at large. This change, how- 
ever, to be effective, must not he de- 
layed : it must be promptly taken 
up hy an effective and honest effort 
t)f the government, emanating di- 
rectly from them, and promu&ated 
with an avowed determination to nave 
it strictiy and inflexibly applied. 
(Hear, hear.) Concurring, as he 
did, in this part of the hon. mem- 
ber's speech, it was with regret that 
he had to follow up his other obser- 
vations with the most decided ex- 
pression of dissent from many of the 
sentiments ittered by him. Indeed, 
he could hudly imderstand some of 
the comments which he had made 
upon the policy and conduct of Great 
Britain towaids their foreign rela- 
tions ; he hardly knew on wnat pas- 
sage of her late intercourse with 
foreign states ]&igland o\:^t to feli- 
icitate herself, l^e cursory and ap- 



parent regret which the honourable 
member had supplied to the infamous 
invasion of Spain, following his 
allusion to the single sentence which 
the speech contained respecting that 
event, and which was one congratu- 
lating the sovereign on the Ime of 
policy he had been advised to adopt 
Good God! what was that Une of po- 
licy ? It might have been right, or 
it might have been wrong — it was 
now too late to argue the question of 
that policy; but was it9x effect that 
upon which the parliament had a right 
now to congratulate their sovereign ? 
To have adopted a different pdicy 
might, perhaps, as the honourable 
member supposed, have led to defeat ; 
but even in that view of it, they vrore 
only one degree better than they 
would have b^n had they made thie 
experiment of their interference. This 
coimtry might have been, imder one 
alternative, doomed to witness, not- 
withstanding her interposition, the 
conquest of Spain by France, aiKi the 
ultimate possioilily of being involved 
in a war, without makii^ the attempt 
to frustrate the aggression of the in- 
vader. That course she had not 
taken, but had remained a witness of 
the aggression. Was that a topic of 
congratulation ? It might have been 
wise not to have gone to war; but 
he must repeat, that of all topics of 
self-congratulation, and of all times 
to urge them in the face of the world, 
this was the most extraordinary, the 
most incredible, when the avowed 
object of France and those with whom 
tiiat power was in conjimction, was to 
put down the spark of liberty where- 
ever it dawned. Was that tiie mo- 
ment for England to congratulate 
herself upon her non-interference to 
save the privileges of independent 
states ? At least, it became a firee 
nation like this, not to withhold her 
remonstrance from being heard, rather 

than 



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tlffioi faer coDgiatalalion upon her own 
pas^ venesB, by the supporters of that 
league of despots, who, in the first 
instance, through the agency of France 
against Spedn, have avowed their 
armed conspiracy against the liberties 
of Ae world. (Hear, hear.) That 
such a moment should be taken by a 
British parliament to congratulate the 
crown, that matters have not gone 
worse with the people of EngEind, 
would hardly be credited, unless by 
those who heard the words of the ad- 
dress. Let the house recollect what it 
was which had happened since they 
had laiSt met ; it was oniy the conquest 
of Spain by France — only that France 
had, by force of arms, possessed her- 
self of that ancient and once powerful 
nation— and only that Great Britain 
had suffered almost without remon- 
strance, that French achievement to 
be performed : and yet England was 
now to congratnlate herself upon what 
she had done, or rather failed to have 
done, for the preservation of the liber- 
ties of an independent state. There 
was a time when that event (the con- 
quest of Spain) was much more dis- 
tant than it lately looked — ^whenthe 
situation of England was at home 
most different from what it now was — 
when the necessary mode of conduct- 
ing the particular war was the most 
expensive of all the expensive wars 
mt ever were undertaken — ^and yet 
at that time the struggle of Spain was 
by England manfully and victoriously 
defen£d, and her victories in that 
cause celebrated throughout the world : 
to what avail, he now asked, v^as that 
expense and blood-shed? (Hear, 
hour.] It v^as now indeed, and sad 
to say it, needless to discuss the dif- 
ferent policy which the government 
had on the late occasion pursued ; 
but for God's sake, if it cannot be the 
subject of remonstrance, let it not be 
put forth on parliamentary record as 



a fit source for expressing felicitationa 
to the throne. The honourable mem- 
ber had dwelt upon the inadequate 
resistance made by the people of 
Spain to their invaders, and had from 
thence inferred, that the Spaniards 
had altered their attachment to a free 
constitution, and, to say the least of it, 
evinced but a very moderate desire 
for a species of liberty for which they 
were not prepared, and manifested 
no feeling to make any sacrifice for 
the maintenance of tne new con- 
stitution provided for them. This 
argument of the honourable mem- 
ber cut two ways; and, viewed in 
either, carried with it many diffi- 
culties. He should like to know if 
Spain was not s^ainst the present re- 
stored government —if the feelings 
and principles of an inunense part 
of the Spanish population were not 
deddedlv favourable to the system 
which the allies had subverted— if 
such had not been, and still was not 
the predominant desire of that people, 
why was France compelled to keep 
60 or 70,000 troops in Spain to prop 
the throne of Ferdinand ? (Hear.) 
The honourable member's argument, 
to say the least of it, placed him in 
this dilemma— either the Spaniards 
loved a free constitution, and must 
be kept down from the enjoyment 
of it by an overawing force ; or 
France is conquering Spain, and pre- 
pared to hold that state as a con- 
quered country. There was no getting 
nd of that dilemma. There was one 
of two conclusions to which the ar- 
gument, as put by the honourable 
member, inevitably led - one of than 
was most hostile to the plighted faith 
of a great nation, most d^gerous to 
the safety of surrounding states, and 
most deeply committing the public 
honour of France, who, but the sprii^ 
before her invasion, had disavowed 
all idea of a direct attack upon Spain. 

In 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



In the &oe of europe, France had 
disavowed that aggression formed any 
part of her views towards Spain. The 
British government was duped hy the 
disgusting hypocrisy which then veil- 
ed the designs of France ; andheing 
so duped, the means were overlooked 
of seeing what could he done to avert 
the fete of Spain. But, on the other 
hand, if that were not ^e alternative 
to which Spain was reduced, and that 
she had a desire to maintain her con- 
stitution, hut compelled to yield to 
the force of circumstances, was her- 
self unahle to present a sufficient front 
to her invaders, althoi^h she claimed 
the aid of other free countries for a 
support that would have been trifling 
to them, yet adequate to her exigen- 
cies — a trifling pecuniary aid, a small 
naval co-operation, the resources 
which she might have derived from 
the individual services of enterprising 
individuals by the repeal of the foreign 
enlistment bill — ^these, with her own 
efforts, might have had a fiedr trial, 
although it was impossible to foresee 
the actod result There was no get- 
ting rid of the dilemma which he had 
traced. He believed the cause of the 
disasters of Spain had arisen from the 
conduct of both parties, who were 
affected by the dilemma. He be- 
lieved that Spain was prepared to 
defend her constitution, thoi]^ left 
to herself without leaders and ex- 
ternal support, and that still she 
was kept down by the oven^elm- 
ing power of France — ^that she suf- 
ferea a conquest of her national in- 
dependence, the worst and most 
dangerous of all conquests, in the 
face of a civilized world. This wa^ 
an overt act in the conspiracy of the 
mat band of tyrants aeainst the li- 
berties of free states; and it was done 
while another great nation, herself the 
cradle of freedom, remained a passive 
spectator of that blow, whidi, by &e 



least active interposition, she nu^ 
have repelled. What had they gained 
by the poUcy on which they were 
now called upbn to felicitate them- 
selves ? The honourable gentlraian 
had asserted, that at no former period 
of her history had Great Britain held 
a more commanding attitude in the 
eyes of the world, or one in which she 
more completdy held the balance of 
power in tne scale of human politics. 
Where,wherewas this shown ? Where 
was this preponderating control oi 
influence visible ? They once, in- 
deed, could boast of that proud pre- 
eminency, but he challenged any 
man to point out its existence now» 
in TOveming the destinies of states* 
£i£er they had the power, and re- 
frained frcMn using it, or tiiey had 
suffered the beam which uphekl li- 
berty and the independence of nations 
to be kicked by despots, and the ba- 
lance overpowered ; or they suffered 
themselves to be duped and cajoled^ 
and shut out from the europeah sys- 
tem ; or, what was, if possible, still 
worse, to be called into it, when (and, 
indeed upon no other occasion) they 
were wanted as brokers, when tne 
bills were to be paid, and the money 
suppUed to meet the exigency of ^ 
scheme. (Hear, hear.) One mode 
of estimating the sense entertained by 
the continentalpowers, of the oondud 
and station of England was, to see in 
what light foreigners used them. It 
was now the proverbial talk, abroad, 
when the politics of England were 
discussed, that she was no loi^r en- 
tided to rate herself as a fmrt^rate 
controlling power — no, nor even as 
a second-rate; but must take her 
place as a insular power, where na- 
ture had put her, or where she had 
put herself. It might be said, that 
the dangers which were imputed to 
the system of the foreisn despots were 
fanciful, distant, and dumencal. He 



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was Tprejpaxed to maintain the con- 
traiy from the avowed principles of 
the oonspiiators, commonly called 
** The Holy Alliance." (A cry of 
** hear.") What ! was this designa- 
tion of these sovereigns doubted? 
Why, it was not his, but that which 
they had ^ven themselves, dropping 
the adjective which th^ had been 
pleased to prefix to it (Hear.) There 
was but one view which could be 
taken of that league of conspirators, 
and the motives of their alliance. He 
did not expect that any measure would 



* course of either the present year 
or of the next year, or even of the 
year after that, expressly designed to 
wound the pride, of outrage the feel- 
ings of the people of this country ; 
for though they were prevented by 
many conaderations mm plunging 
hastily into the miseries of war, — 
though they were bound over to keep 
the peace in recognizances of eight 
hundred millions sterling, (hear, 
hear) ; yet as, in the case of private 
individuals, there were insults which 
compelled them to forfeit the recog- 
nizances into which they had enter^, 
80 also, in the case of nations, there 
were circumstances so injurious to 
their honour, so galling to their pride, 
and even so alannine to their fears, 
as to induce them to mrfeitthe recog- 
nizances by which they were boui]d, 
and to say, in language more war- 
ranted by mgh feeling than by sound 
discretion, ^< Let tfc^ debt go ; let 
the storm come; we are prepared 
for the worst; and hap wnat hap 
may, wiU submit no longer to the 
contumely and outrage of these op- 
pressors of mankind." Therefore, 
It was, he conceived, that the imperial 
persom^es abroad would proceed 
sbwly and gradually, but still silendy 
and surely in their infernal work > 
that they woukl not assail lu by any 



direct and immediate measures, but 
would accustom us by d^rees to bear, 
first one thing and then another, till 
at last, when uiey had come to that 
point at which we necessarily must 
stop, we should find that we had lost 
the gold«[i opportunity of resisting 
them with success ; and having lost 
vrith it that which to individuals was 
every thing, namely, our honour, 
should be driven at their good time» 
and not at our own, to wage a long 
and sanguinary, and perhaps unsuc- 
cessful struggle against those whom we 
could have resided successfully had 
we resisted them in the first outset of 
their agressions. In making these 
assertions, he was not indulging 4n 
empty and unsupported dedamadon. 
He had only to ask the house to look 
at the conduct of these crowned con- 
spirators abroad, and then request it 
to judge of what their intentions, and 
feelings, and conduct, must soon be 
towards us. (Hear.) He had been 
told during the last session — ^and as 
it was a most important point, and 
one of which he had a most vivid re- 
collection, he would proceed to it 
first — ^he recollected what he had been 
told, with a sneer of contempt, by a 
right honourable secretaiy, when he 
had stated to him that aocordin? to 
information which he had received the 
allied sovere%ns had commenced a 
system of unwarrantable interference 
with the Swiss cantons. He had 
said at the time that he did not be- 
lieve all the information which he had 
received, but had added, that if the 
least part of the least statement which 
he had heard were founded upon fact, 
it was much, too much to be then dis- 
closed. The right honourable secre- 
tary, in reply, contented himsdf with 
parodying the expression which he 
had used, and did not venture to say, 
^ there is no foundation for such a 
story," which would have been sa- 
tisfactory. 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



tisfactoiy, or *< we do not ourselves 
know of any such thing,'' which 
to him would have been more satis- 
j&ctoiy; for he should have supposed 
that as the well paid minister, whom 
we had residing in that country, with 
all the intelli^nce which it was 
his duty and liis business to col- 
lect, had not heard any thing of 
such a measure, there could not be 
any truth in the information which 
he had received regarding it The 
right honourable secretary, however, 
ventured to say, " If the least part 
of the least statement which the hon. 
and learned gentleman has made^ is 
much too much for him to disclose, 
it may be a satisfiau^on to him to 
know, that that least part is much 
more than his majesty's government 
are informed of." From the epi- 
grammatic turn of the expressions 
which the right hon. secretary had 
then used, he had an entire recollec- 
tion of the reply which he had then 
made; and yet, notwithstanding 
that reply, it now turned out, beyond 
all dispute, that the intelligence 
which he had received was much 
more correct than that which had 
been transmitted to his majesty's 
government; for though, hitherto, 
he had not been proi^ to be cor- 
rect in what he had asserted r^ard- 
ing the offer of placing Switzerland 
under the protectorate of an Austrian 
prince, stiU he had been more than 
ooToe out by facts in what he had 
asserted r^arding the restrictions 
which were to be placed upon the 
freedom of its press, and the regula- 
tions bv which it was proposed to 
send all emigrants out of its territo- 
ries ; or, in other words, by impe- 
rial mandate, to convert Switzerland 
(which in all former times had been 
an inviolable asylum to all persons 
prosecuted for religious or political 
opinion), into a mere province and 



appanage to Austria. Sorry was he 
to state — ^but it was a matter tooin:* 
portant to be passed over in sileaoe 
—that those individuals whom the 
calamities of their country, and the 
oppression of its rulers, had induced 
to seek refuge in Switzerland, had 
been driven from its confines with 
an a^ravation of suffering that was 
totally unnecessary, even to aooom- 
plish the infernal purposes of their 
persecutors ; and that the press had 
oeen put down with a degree of su- 
perfluous virulence for wmch it was 
impossible to account upon any ra- 
tional principle; for, not content 
with putting down diose journals 
which communicated political intel- 
li^nce (and which, though they 
might perhaps be expected to con- 
tain political discussion, contained 
little or none), or those journals of 
intelligence, in ^ich certain mat- 
ters of political discussion were 
mixed, they even put down those 
journals of which the object was mere 
literary and scientific discussions, for 
no other reason, that he could learn, 
than that they savoured of discussion, 
and that discussion and conspiracy 
could not stand together. (Hear, 
hear.) He might be told in reply, 
that notwithstanding all these cir- 
cumstances, the finances of Switzer- 
land, though small in amount, were 
flourishing for its extent; that its 
people were contented and cheerfol, 
and almost free from taxation ; that 
there was tranquilli^ within, and no 
disturbance from without ; and yet, 
though all this were true, he would 
still call Switzerland an unhappy 
country, placed as it was under me 
beck of foreign despots, and so 
forced to connive at the wrongs 
which these pubUc conspirators 
against all that was free, and vir- 
. tuous, and holy, were daily inflicting 
upon.the liberties of maiffiiiid. The 

people 



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33 



' people oF Switzeriand were made 
their accomplices, and so contrived 
to preserve nominal freedom, whilst 
practically suffering all the indigni- 
ties of most ahject slavery. By 
such conduct they trusted to escape 
those evils which open Resistance 
would immediately bring upon them ; 
and all they gained by such obe- 
dience to the mandate of their mas- 
ters was a po8tponement--a short 
postponement at best— of the misfor- 
tmws which they dreaded. Nor was 
it in Switzerland alone that these 
oonspiratois made their power to be 
felt and feared. In Germany they 
exercised similar control; and it 
was not too much to say, that they 
acted as police — ^a kind of royal, 
imperial, and militaiy police, all 
over the continent of Europe. In- 
deed, th^ acted like that unseen 
body, which formeriy exercised its 
influence over Germany, to coun- 
teract principles and practices as de- 
testable as theirs. Like that unseen 
body, these conspirators met in se- 
cret conclave to ^ect iheir objects : 
like them, they deliberated on their 
decrees in private, and afterwards 
appointed individual members to 
execute them in public. For in- 
stance, sentence went forth against 
My, and Austria was appointed to 
desolate and overrun it. On a sub- 
sequent occasion, Spain and Portn- 
gad became the object of their rage, 
and to France was allotted the task 
of ponisbing and enslaving them. 
On one day Austria, and on another 
France, was the power selected to 
execute the order of this confedera- 
tion of despots ; and that, too, with- 
out any deference to us or to our inte- 
rests (indeed, as to our interests, it 
wDold only enhance the merit of the 
deed, if it were decidedly hostile to 
tbem)-<«without any regard to our 
-feeHngs, princifdes, customs, or opi- 
1B24.] 



nions ; and the bitter fruits of them 
were reaped by their victims, or by 
ourselves, witnout any question be- 
ing made as to their effects, or any 
objection being urged by us as to 
their consequences. (Hear, hear.) 
And this, he was to be told, was 
subject of congratulation to the peo- 
ple of England ! This was holding 
the balance of power, swaying the 
destinies of Europe, and executing 
our own purposes, as absolutely as 
we ever did in the ** most hi^ and 
palmy state'' of our national glory I 

SDheers.) To return, however, to 
e point from which he had di- 
gressed. He had before described 
to the house the complete state of 
vassalage to which the press had 
been reduced in Switzerland. If 
any man doubted of its being in a 
similar state of subjecdon and degra- 
dation in Germany, he would merely 
remind him of what had occurred a 
short time ago in the kingdom of 
Wurtemburg, where a mandate was 
given to the government to suppress 
an obnoxious journal, and where the 
obnoxious journal was suppressed 
accordingly. He had been told, 
upon authority which he could not 
dispute, that there was no part of 
Germany in which the editor of a 
journal durst publish any thing that 
was calculated to rive umbrage — he 
would not say to the sovereign of his 
own country (for that was a matter 
of municipal law and domestic ar- 
rangement) — ^but to the czar of Mus- 
covy, the king of France, and the 
emperor of Austria— foreign powers, 
nahiral enemies to each other, be- 
tween whom no alliance could exist 
that was not founded upon the prin- 
ciple of conspiring against the liber- 
ties of nations, and who had no more 
right, title, or precedent, to interfere 
with the press of Germany, than die 
commons of England had to int^rr 
C fere 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



fere with the press of France, or to 
command the suj^pression of any 
journal published in its metropolis. • 
(Hear, hear.) He was afraid that 
this was the case in Italy also. An 
Austrian army, as the^ all knew, 
had overrun tnat beautinil yet mise- 
rable coimtry. The south of it was 
still occupied by a body of 30,000 
men, whilst the north bad recently 
witnessed a scene of horror (loud 
cries of " hear" from all sides of the 
house), of which the mere recollec- 
tion made the blood curdle, in the 
veins, and filled every feeling breast 
with the strongest emotions of dis- 
^t and abhorrence. Despotism 
had there added new horrors to the 
cruelty which it always exhibited in 
executing its decrees, and had ag- 
gravated, by the most ingenious bar- 
barity, the mental tortures which it 
was in the habit of inflicting on its 
unhappy victims. He wished not 
to excite the feelings of the house 
hy any glowing app^ to their pas- 
sions ; but he could not help asking 
them whether any language of con- 
demnation could be too strong for a 
government, which, when indivi- 
duals liad been sentenced to death 
after three years' confinement in a 
fortress remote from their friends, 
unacquainted with their crime, and 
unconfronted with their accusers, 
could, afler their relatives had im- 
dertaken a week's journey to apply 
for mercy, send them back wimout 
any answer, and withhold from them 
the knowled^ that an order had 
been already issued to remit the ca- 
pital part of the sentence, and to 
change it (he could not say whether 
in mercy or not) to protracted im- 
prisonment for ten or twenty years 
m Austrian fortresses ? (Hear.) Let 
them reflect on the mental agony in 
which those unhappy females must 
have travelled back to their unhappy 



relatives, in ignorance of the cod^^ 
mutation of their sentence, and ex- 
pecting to arrive at the place of their 
imprisonment too late to a^h their 
last sijgh, or to pay the last offices of 
affection to their bleeding remains ; 
let them reflect on the mass of wan- 
ton and unnecessary suffering to 
which they were thus exposed ; and 
then, if they could, let them with- 
hold from those who inflicted it their 
disgust, and hatred, and deepest 
execration. This was a sample, and, 
he was sony to say, not a solitary 
sample, of what was daily doing in 
that conquered country. He s^cke 
of it not as an evil caused hy its- 
municipal law, but by the presence 
of a foreign and insulting enemy* 
It was not, however, the only griev* 
ance to which the Austrian subjects 
of Italy were exposed. It was true 
that torture was abolished, and that 
the rack was no longer in use ; but 
unfortunately the juc^ of police was 
invested with a power, which enabled 
him, if his victim did not answer as 
he wished, to aggravate his suffer- 
ings in any proportion which he 
thought fit. For instance, he could 
place him in a dark instead of a light 
dungeon ; he could feed him od 
bread and water, instead of the usual 
prison allowance ; he could confine 
him for ten or even twenty days in a 
cell, which he was autnorised to 
render more or less damp and un- 
wholesome, according as the prisoner 
shewed a greater or a less sense of 
the enormity of his offence : in other 
words, according to the honesty, or 
obstiimcy, or strength of nerve, of 
his victim ; and thus he was enabled 
to extort by a slower, though not 
a less effective, torment than the rack, 
an avowal of guilt where the indivi- 
dual was not guilty, and a denuncia- 
tion of crime against those who had 
never committed it These prac- 
tices. 



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tices,they were aware, had been now 
carried on in Italy, under Austrian 
superintendence, for upwards of 
three years. In some cases the vic- 
tim had sunk under them ; in others, 
the ealpiit had been so completely 
worn down by his sufferings, as to 
have sought to escape from them and 
IHe together, by confessing guilt 
which he had never perpetrated ; 
and in many, the nearest relations 
had inculpated each other of crimes, 
which it was afterwards proved, up- 
on the clearest evidence, that it was 
not possible that they could have 
committed. This, he repeated, was 
daily done in Italy, under Austrian 
superintendence, m confbrmi^with 
the mandates of the conspirators 
whom he had before described. 
Thgr need not order' it to be done in 
Spain by the satellites of France, be- 
cause they had a more active and 
appropriate agent for their purposes 
in that countiy, in the person of its 
beloved ikionarch (a laugh], who— 
he d^ed any one to deny it — ^was 
more the object of the contempt, 
disgust, and abhorrence of civilised 
Europe, than any other man now 
living in it. ** There he is," conti- 
nued the learned gentleman, *< a fit 
companion for the unholy band of 
kings who have restored him to the 
power which he has. so often abused, 
in order to give him ah opportunity 
of abusing it once more ! There he 
is, with the blood of Riego yet drip- 
fMng on his head, seeking fresh vic- 
tims for the scaffold, and ready to 
proceed, on the first summons, to 
the torture of the helpless women 
and unoffenaing children whom for- 
tune may have placed in his power. 
I believe that in this house, as well 
as in this country, there is only one 
feeling regarding the conduct of these 
tyrants. I believe that if the coun- 
try were polled, man by man, though 



there might be some who tlunk it 
t^nfit to give vent at present to such 
sentiments as Ihaye expressed regard- 
ing them, there would oe none to dis- 
pute their propriety or correctness. 
I believe that I might call upon the 
house now, as I did three years ago, 
in the case of the unprincipled ag- 
gression upon Naples, and with the 
same success. I believe that I might 
even call upon those gendemen who 
think me unwise in making the de- 
clarion I have done, and put the 
question to them, one after another, 
without any fear as to their answer — 
* Do you, or do you not, abhor the 
whole conduct, cluiracter, and princi- 
ples of those conspirators, who are 
now exerting their utmost power to 
d^rade the moral dignity of man, 
to bring back the times of intellec- 
tual darkness, and to deluge the 
fairest plains of E)irope with the 
blood of all who opposed themselves 
to the completion of their infamous 
design?'" (Cheering.) The learned 
gentleman then reminded the house, 
that it behoved them to consider 
the difficulties into which the recent 
policy of the continental monarchs 
was calculated, at no very distant 
period, to plimge the country. How- 
ever insensible we had shewn our- 
selves to the aggression upon Old 
Spain, it appeared that we were 
likely to be a litde more sensitive to 
any aggression upon New Spain. 
He knew that there was a party in 
the state — ^he trusted an insignificant 
one —which had said, ." Let France 
rule Old Spain ; let all the resources 
of that magnanimous and once pow- 
erful nation be placed in the hands 
of our ancient enemy and rival ; let 
all the sea coast of Spain, with its 
different harbours and arsenals, be 
in her undisturbed and undisputed 
control ; let her have possession, as 
long as she pleases, 6^ those parts of 

Spain 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



Spain from which an enemy can 
most easily invade Ireland — that 
country in which, as the hon. se- 
conder of the address had well re- 
marked, it has long heen our plan 
and our policy to keep the people 
divided and disconnected; let all the 
advantages of Spain, natural as well 
as adventitious, after thev have heen 
improved to the utmost by the intel- 
lect of France (a power the least cal- 
culated in Europe to neglect them), 
be employed against us : let all this 
be done ; still all the danger that can 
arise from them is, a distant appre- 
hension — ^an idle fear. If we do 
quarrel with France, it is no matter: 
we have beat her once, when she 
was mightier than she is now ; and 
if need come, we can beat, and will 
beat her again.*' All this might be 
very true : we might, and he trusted 
we should, be successful in such a 
struggle ; still he thought it might 
be as well to avoid even the cause of 

3uarrel, in a case where, if quarrel 
id occur, we must necessarily run 
up a bill of 100 millions, to say no- 
thing of the many thousand Uves 
which must be sacrificed during its 
continuance. It was all very well 
that such a calamity — for war under 
any circumstances, was a calamity — 
should happen, where the honour as 
well as the interest of the countiy 
was at stake ; but still, if it were to 
occur, we should not allow our ad- 
versary to take imdisputed possession 
beforenand of every advantage that 
was calculated to annoy us. Some 
individuals, however, acted --and he 
was not now alludine to his majes- 
ty's ministers — as if the honour of 
the country were not worthy of re- 
gard, and as if its interest were the 
only Intimate cause for its engaging 
in war. They considered tlwt our 
honour had not been tarnished by 
the aggression of France on Spain ; 



yet they saw our dearest interests eon- 
dan^red by the very suggestion that 
a similar aggression was oontem* 
plated by France upon Spanish Ame- 
rica. Their lai^uage almost amount- 
ed to this—" I care not for my dia^ 
racter — I value not my honour ; but 
touch my pocket, and you touch my 
life. Touch what you will, but for 
God's sake touch not the colonies ; 
if you do, you touch the manufiaOi- 
tures of England — ^you place yourself 
In collision with one of our most de- 
Ucate interests :" and, as some said^ 
though he a^ain repeated, not his 
majesty's ministers, *vYou give 
us cause, and make it time for us 
to arm." ' He could not imderstand 
by what misapplicadon of ingenui^, 
or by what subtilty of argument, those 
men could persuade themselves that 
we had a right to protest against the 
aggressions of France upon South 
America, after we had not uttered a 
word of protest against her aggres- 
sions upon Spain. At the present 
moment the colonies belonged de 
jure to Ferdinand. According to the 
doctrines advanced by France before 
she invaded Spain, he was not more 
out of possession of Mexico than he 
was out of possession of Madrid. It 
was to relieve him from the power of 
the constitutionalists, and to restaxe 
him to his legitimate authority in 
Spain, that French troops were march- 
ed into Spain. This pretext was not 
quarrelled with, and what was there 
to prevent a similar excuse from 
being as good in the case of the 
Spanish Americas as it had been in 
the case of Old Spain ? Besides, it 
mi^ht be asked, had not Ferdinand 
a nght to take back colonies, which 
were undoubtedly his before the com- 
mencement of the war ? To that 
question he knew that the right ho- 
nourable secretary opposite hsS given 
a decisive answer. In one of \m 

state 



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^tate papers he had said, ** Time, and 
the course of events, appear to have 
substantially decided me separation 
of the colonies from the mother coun- 
try/^ But he would ask, liad not 
•*time and the course of events," at 
the time of the French invasion, more 
" substantially"* decided that the 
Spanish constitution was the consti- 
tion of that coxmtiy ? Had it not re- 
sisted all the attempts of its assailants, 
from its establishment in 1820, down 
to the year 1823 ? The fact was be- 
yond dispute. Until French gold and 
French intrigue set up the army of the 
faith, the constitutional government 
of Spain was clearly an independent 
government ; indeed, it had been re- 
cognized more than once by our own 
cabinet, and had been more formerly 
recognized several years before by 
the imperial autocrat of Russia him- 
8d£ If we ever went to war to i)re- 
Y&A France finom taking possession 
of the former colonies of i^ain,there 
would be an inconsistency m our po- 
licy, which ousht to be reconciled, 
but which, in his humble opinion, 
it would be beyond the wit of man 
to reconcile. He knew that he v^as 
expressing the hope of every man in 
the country, when he said that he 
hoped that thecolonies of Spain would 
never, under any circumstances, re- 
turn under the dominion of the mo- 
ther country, (cheers), no matter 
whether she was to exist under a 
ooDStitutional government, or an ab- 
sokrfce despotism, or whether England, 
France, or Russia, was to hold the 
preponderating power in her coun- 
sels. He tru^ed that the inconsis- 
tency which he had pointed out in 
our policy admitted of reconciliation ; 
but whether it could or not, he trusted 
tiiat we should not neglect our duty 
to America, although we had grossly 
neglected it towards Spain. The 
question, however, with regard to 



South America, he believed, was how 
disposed of, or nearly so; for an 
event had recently happened, than 
which no event had ever dispersed 
greater joy, exultation, and gratitude, 
over all the freemen in Europe — an' 
event in which he, as an Englishman, 
connected by ties of blood and lan- 
guage with America, took peculiar 
pride and satisfaction — an event, he 
repeated, had happened which was 
decisive on the subject; and that 
event was the speech and message of 
the president of the United States to 
congress. The line of pohcy which 
that speech disclosed be<kme a great, 
a free, and an independent nation, 
and he hoped that we should be pre- 
vented by no mean pride, no paltiy 
jealoiffiy, from following so noble 
and illustrious an example. He ' 
trusted that as the United States had 
had the gloiy of setting, we should 
have the good taste to foUow, the ex- 
ample of holding fast by free institu- 
tions, and of assisting our brother 
freemen, in whatever part of the globe 
they were found, in placii^ bounds 
to mat impious alliance, which, if it 
ever succeed in bring down the old 
world to its own degrading level, 
would not hesitate to attempt to master 
the new world too. (Cheers.) On 
this point there was no occasion to 
have recourse to conjecture as they 
had facts before them. Ferdinand 
had been expressly told by the em- 
peror Alexander, that if he would 
throw off the constitutional fetters by 
which he was trainmelled, he would 
assist him to recover his trans-atlan- 
tic dominions. In this case they 
would send out no army, they would 
equip no fleet, they would not appear 
to taJkC an active part in the struggle ; 
but they would, most assuredly, give 
assistance, in an imderhand and covert 
manner, to the efforts of the Spanish 
government Treasurewould be pri- 
vately 



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vaitely supplied ; aims and ammuni- 
tion would be sent oat, secretly, but 
in the abundance required to meet the 
views of Spun ; and, above all, that 
would be done with lespect to South 
America, which had already been 
suocessfuUv practised in the paiin- 
sula ; homes of intriguers, amply 
supplied with money, would be sent 
out; the priesthood of the coimtiy 
woidd be found most willing allies in 
creating suspicion and sowing dis- 
sension ; and unless an effectual re- 
sistance were made (and to expose 
the danger in the first instance was 
the most effectual step towards resist- 
ance), those colonies would be again 
brought under the iron rule of the 
motl^r county. If the declaration 
of America did not, as he hoped it 
would, put an end to those attempts 
on the independence of the colonies, 
if a vigorous resistance were not op- 
posed to those machinations, sooner 
or later their liberties wodd fall a 
sacrifice to the intrigues of Spain and 
of the allied powers. [Hear.) He 
cpuld have wished that tne honoura- 
ble mover had omitted one expression 
which had fellen fxx>m him in the 
course of his speech. He alluded to 
that part in which he spoke of the 
unfortunate termination of the contest 
in l^ain, and to the little resistance 
which haidbeen made by the Spanish 
people. He would not then enter 
mto an inquiry, whether that re- 
sult was occasioned by the influence 
of foreign powers, or by the conduct 
of the people themselves. Un- 
doubtedly, blunders had been com- 
mitted. Thewant of a settied consti- 
tution, and somewhat of a too scru- 
pulous policy, led men, in a crisis of 
affairs delicate and critical beyond all 
previous example, to stand on form, 
when they should rather have attend- 
ed to substance ; added to this, were 
the efforts of tl^ priesthood, whose 



mischievous influence was deeply to 
be lamented in Old Spain* Of these 
internal evils, aggravated by external 
aggression, the Sberties of Spain be- 
came the victim. ^^(Uear.) With 
req)ect to those distinguished indi- 
viduals who had left that countiy to 
avoid the tyranny which they must 
have experienced had they remained 
in it, it must be admitted by all par- 
ties, that they retired from the contest 
with hands unstained with blood, and 
with reputations imtainted even fay 
the breath of suspicion. (Hear, hear.) 
They possessed not resources to save 
Spam, but they had more than am- 
ple resources to save themselves from 
contumely. (Hear, hear.) Those 
great men had retired, subject to no 
charge; but conspicuous for that ho- 
nest, illustrious, and in this countiy, 
he hoped, honoured povoty, which 
they preferred to wealth, wtien ac- 
quired by an abandonment of prin- 
ciple. (Hear, hear.) He hoped to 
God that th^ would find, wherever 
they went, the same sympathy and 
kindness which had been extended 
towards them in Great Britaiiu They, 
who had squandered such sums of 
money on projects that were wcHrse 
than useless, might well extend the 
hand of assistance to those high- 
minded men; and he wished and 
hoped to see the day when they 
might do justice to their tianscaidmt 
merits, by treatii^ them in that gene- 
rous way which ueir virtue deseed. 
(Hear, hear.) He b^ged pardon for 
detaining the house by addressing 
them at such length. (Hear.) He 
had, indeed, occupied a much longer 
time than he at fiist intended ; but 
he felt so strongly on some c^ the 
points introduce by the hon. mover 
in his speech, that he could not avoid 
noticing them. He should only add» 
that the pleasure which he felt at the 
admission contained in the conclud- 
ing 



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39 



ing jpait of the speedi^.wffi as great 
as me gratification he experienced 
in having dischaiged his dtrtY by en- 
tering his protest against other por* 
tions of it' (Hear, hear.) 

Mr. Osniifn^ said, he rose with 
some degree of diffidence, because 
be had not previously intended to 
present himself to the house imme- 
diately after the hon. and learned 
gentleman, in consequence of die 
impression created by a rumour 
which he had heard, namely, that it 
was the intention of some hon. 
membor on the other side to propose 
an amendment to the address. How- 
ever, as that intention seemed not to 
be entertained, and although ^e 
hon. and learned gentleman had 
thown no obstacle in the way of that 
practical conclusion at which he be- 
lieved the bouse would arrive, yet 
there were some points in his speech, 
which it would be neither respectful' 
to the house, nor just towaids his 
maje^s government, to pass over 
in silence. Whatever might have 
fallen from the hon. seconder, which 
appeared objectionable to the hon. 
ai^ learned gentleman, he (Mr. Caa- 
mng) mvat request, in fairness, that 
the whole of his speech should be 
considered together — ^that it should 
not be taken in its separate topics^ 
but should be viewed with reference 
to the general tenor of the matteis 
under consideration, and to die 
general state of the coimtry in all its 
rdations. He entirely agreed in the 
sentiment, that the present was not 
the moment to conader the best ad- 
vantage, or with reference to the 
immediate business of the day, the 
by-gone question of the policy which 
had been adopted towards Spain. 
That question must refer solely to 
the address carried in the last sessions 
of parliament — he need not say 
with how large a majority, or with 



how general a concurrence of the 
pablic voice throughout the countiy. 
The policy then recommended *had 
been strictly ad(^ted; andtheevents 
whidi were then in progress had 
now been broij^ht to a conclusion. 
It was impossible for die speech 
from the tmone to omit all notice oi 
that subject, and it was equally 
impossible to have noticed it in a 
maimer less calculated to revive ex- 
tinguished feelings, or to excite any 
of those angiy emotions to which 
the introduction of such a topic 
might be supposed to lead. He was 
not inclined to Mowthe criticism of 
the honourable and learned gentle-- 
man, who had gone over the whole 
speech of the honourable mover; 
situated as he was, any other person 
would be more proper to under- 
take that task than himself; and 
dierefbre he should not enter into 
discussion as to the causes to which 
were to be attributed the iailtue 
of the efforts which had been reoendy 
made in Speun. God fiirbid that he 
should exult over those who had 
been discomfited — God forbid that 
he should utter an unkind sentiment 
towards those who were now mourn- 
ing in an^ish over their defeated' 
hopes, and whose misfortunes no 
individual talent, virtue, or exertion, 
could avert. Undoubtedly, die issue 
of that contest must have been seen 
to depend on events and circum- 
stances which no human being 
could estimate with certainty or con- 
fidence. One great consideration 
was, thed^ree of support which the 
existing constitutional s^m was 
likely to receive from the fodiings and 
affections of the people of Spain — 
that people on whom it had always 
been said so much dependence imgnt 
be placed. As this country had not 
any thing to do with the sbn^le— 
asjhis majesty's government feh that 
a strict 



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PARLIAMBNTARY DEBATES* 



a strict neutrality was the wisest and 
best course — he was prevented from 
stating what the opinion of ministers 
was with respect to that consti- 
tutional system. He was not desirous 
to point out its defects — he was not 
desirous to point out its unfitness 
in many req>ects for that countiy 
— he was not desirous to point out 
how far it was unsuitable fyt monar- 
chical and catholic Spain. It had 
failed; and with its failure a state of 
thingshadgrownup^respectingwhichy 
standing in the situation he then held, 
he would not utter an opinion. It 
was however satisfactory to state, that 
in the contest for its establishment, 
no British army, no British navy, no 
British treasure, was employed. So 
fiir as this countiy was concerned, the 
Spanish people were left to act for 
themselves. Thencame the question, 
for what purpose were they to have 
interfered, and to what extent was 
that interference to proceed? It was 
not merely necessary that they should 
send fleets, and armies, and supplies 
to Spain ; but, to have been of use, 
they must also have carried into that 
countiy unanimity, firmness, and con- 
fidence—qualities, of all others, 
which strangers never carried into a 
state where mey were about to employ 
their arms, (hear) — qualities wmch, 
money, fleets, and armies having 
been supplied, the people must after 
all, acquire for themselves. (Hear.) 
Now, if unanimity and confidence, 
requisites so necessary for carrying 
on the contest— did not exist, was it 
possible, even with our assistance, 
that the effort to establish the con- 
stitutional system could have suc- 
ceeded ? or that any thii^ bevond a 
protraction of tlie strvmle womd have 
been affected? But me hon. and 
learned gentleman had connected 
the affairs of Spain with another 
question, which was not yet decided ; 



and he confessed that be could not 
understand how it was posnbk that 
this country could raise a barrier 
against the mvasion of South Ame- 
rica byaforeign state, vnlesB she wa» 
prqMured to exert her power againflfc 
the war which France waged yMk 
Spain. But the distinction was veiy 
plain. Precisely on the same prin- 
ciple that they determined not to 
consider the internal affadrs of Spain 
as afitsubject for their interferenoe,. 
they would be justified in prevsatimr 
foreign powers from interferiii^ ynm 
the afiairs of the colonies. They 
must consider the mother countiy 
and the colonies, according to thte 
peculiar circumstances of the case ; 
and he must say, that there never 
was an instance in the history of 
the world, where the separation of 
the mother country and the colony 
had taken place, where a ne^lih- 
bouring state had not a clear r^fat 
to exercise its jud^ent on the ques- 
tion of recognition. Undoubtedly 
the mother .country mig^t protest 
against that recognition ; and it was 
eaually clear, that the foreign povrer 
wnile in astateof friendship vnth the. 
mother country, had no rignt to give 
that aid to the colony, which was not 
recQgiv^on, but support and encou- 
ragement It might be difficult to 
state the point where the period of 
recognition should commence- 
where the recognition would not be 
connected with previous encoun^e- 
ment, and where to withhold it would 
be unjusL But when that period 
arrived, it was not the state in 
vriiich the mother countiy then stood 
that should influence the decision. 
It must rest on its own peculiar 
grounds, without taking into con- 
sideration whether the constitution of 
the mother country was a mitigated 
monarchy, as vras the former con- 
stitution of Spain, or a mpnaicfay of 

more 



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« 



moie absolute and unHmited nature. 
The question, he repealed^ must be 
decided on its own special merits, 
and. without referaice to the con- 
stitutional changes which Spain her- 
self had undei^ne. If they were 
pione to deal with others as others 
had dealt with them, there would be 
no necessity for so much caution and 
foibearanoe. They had only to 
look back to the loss of their own 
cobnies in America, and they would 
see that others did not hesitate to 
deal with them in a manner very 
different from that which they had 
adopted. (Hear, hear.) But,nottodo 
precisely as we have been done by, 
out to do as we would be done by, 
was the true political as well as 
moral maxim. (Hear, hear.) The 
honoiffable and learned gentleman 
observed, that if they were now to 
recognize the independence of South 
America, they would only be follow- 
ing the examples which had been set 
in another quarter, alluding to the 
message of the president of the United 
States. In some of the principles 
there laid down, he entirely agreed ; 
and he might be permitted to say, 
diat, long before the message was 
sent fordi, it was distinctly amnitted, 
in the state papers of Great ^tain, 
that the question between the mo- 
ther comUiy and the colonies was 
not a fit subject for foreign interfer- 
ence ; but he did not ^ree in the 
principle that the parent state had 
any ngfat, if she could, to recover 
her own colonial dominions. (Mr. 
Bfoi^iam mentioned, that sucn a 
prinaple was not laid down.) In the 
paper to which the hon. and learned 
gend^aian referred, there wasapassa^ 
which many individuals construed m . 
tint way, and he certainly understood 
the hon. and learned gentleman so 
to have given it. He was cleariy of 
<^)inioo with the (nestdent of the 



United States, diat no foreign state 
had a right to interfere pending the 
dispute between the colonies and the 
mother eoimtry; but he was as 
strongly of opinon, that the mother 
country had a ri^t to attempt to re- 
cover her colonies, if she thought 
proper. At the same time he was 
not blind to the difficulty of making 
such an effort with a prospect of 
success. Looking to the question in 
this point of view, and he thought it 
was the correct one, it appeared to 
him that it would be unkind, unjust, 
unfair, and he would add, ungenerous, 
if this cotmtrv had not afforded an 
interval, to allow Spain an oppor- 
tunity of selecting that course wnich 
app^ired to be most beneficial for 
her colonial interests. He contended 
that. Great Britain would have acted 
unfairly and ungenerously, if while 
Spain was convulsed by a dreadful 
struggle, while the whole force Of the 
country was absorbed in a civil war, 
(one of tiie parties in that war having 
called in a foreign army,) Great Bri- 
tain would, under such circumstances, 
have acted unfairly if she had taken 
advantage of this untoward state of 
things to make an inroad on the co- 
lonial possessions of her ally. Even 
if the time and opportunity were- 
wholly lost, still he must rejoice that 
they were suffered to go by, and that 
notning was attempted to be done 
until Spain was as much in posses- 
sion ot herself, afier the confusion 
into which she had been thrown, as 
it was possible for her to be. Even 
on that part of the speech from the 
throne, lie thought me honourable 
and learned ^nUeman would bestow 
his approbation, if he calmly con- 
sidered it. What was there stated ? 
Ten months ago, in a paper laid on 
the table of tbtt house, it was stated 
that the situation of those indepen- 
dent states depended in a great mea» 

sure 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



sure on eittemal circumstances* Now, 
after a lapse of ten months, vAsa 
Spain was restored to her power as 
substantially as she could be under 
her peculiar circumstances, came this 
speech iiom the throne, which told 
the house, <<that his majesty had re- 
served to himself an unfettered dis- 
cretion of acting towards those colo- 
nies, as their arcumstances and the 
interestof his own people might ap- 
pear to require." Tne hop. and 
learned gentleman surely did not 
want his (Mr. Canning's) interpre- 
tation of this passage : he knew the 
meaning of it to be, that his majesty 
had declined overtures for any joint 
consideration of this subject — ^that he 
had kept his discretion completely 
unfettered on a question in which be 
felt that the interests of his people 
were concerned — ^that he had entered 
into no compromise, and was per- 
fectly at liberiy to act^< as the cir- 
cumstances of those countries and the 
interests of Endand might require." 
(Hear, hear.) What more could the 
country desire, under these circum- 
stances, but that a question of such 
magnitude should be temperately and 
fairly considered ? He would appeal 
to any man, however eager he misfat 
be for the accomplishment of his 
wish, in this respect, whether Uiey 
did not act honourably towards them- 
selves, and generously towards Spain, 
in allowing this delay ? Was it not 
just that a pause should be granted 
to the parent state, during which she 
mi^t have the advant^ of learning 
the sentiments of the different powers 
of Europe ? Could any one dpubt, 
that by allowing this pause, by suf- 
fering tlus subject to be temperately 
diftcuBsed, by sivins an opportunity to 
Spain herself pemaps, to acknow- 
le^ the independence of those 
states, they did not bestow a |;reater 
boon on the colonies than the mime- 



diate recc^ition of England woukf 
bestow on them ? And would not 
such a pause render any step whidi 
they m^fat themselves hereafter take 
more proper and more efficient ? 
Would it not appear to be such a 
step 9S might be justified both in the 
eyes of God and man, as the best and 
most prudent that could be adopted ? 
Such, really, was the fact as he had 
stated it A proposition had bem 
made by the government of Spain to 
the government of this country, and 
an answer had been returned. Hiat 
answer was on the road to Madrid ; 
and after it had been disposed of, the 
time would arrive when government 
would be enabled to speak with more 
explicitness. (Hear.) He did ap- 
prehend with the hon. and learned 
gentleman, that of all the topics 
on which the speech touched, this 
was the most important. He might, 
perhaps, except one — on which, as 
the hon. and learned gentleman had 
not noticed it, he should also remain 
silent, as he had no wish to provoke 
unnecessary discussion. He be- 
lieved the subject of the South Ame- 
rican colonies waft so prominent in 
the minds, feelings and wishes of 
the country, that he was perfectly 
iustiiiad in putting it fbrwaod as he 
had done in the litde which he IM 
felt it necessary to address to the 
house. As to the general question, 
with respect to the station in which 
this country stood towards Emope 
and the world, he would make a very 
few observations. In using that 
phrase, he fek that it was pmectly 
applicable to the time inwmch they 
lived. When he spoke of Europe 
and the world, the phrase had refine 
ence to Europe and America — ^the 
old world and the new, the difierent 
interests of which must be nicely 
balanced by every person who wished 
to attain the charactier of a British 
statesman. 



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4a 



He oouU not take to 
Ittmaelf the pcaifie which the hoiu 
mover, in addreBone himself to this 
pointy had oonfecced on the govem- 
meat; but be must on the other 
hand lepd the blame wiucb the ho- 
nourable and learned gentleman had 
cost on bis msyestv's minsters, and 
contend, that Eogland stood in as 
proud a situation to maintain her 
just Ti^iti^-*to maintain her own 
proper interests — that she was as 
much courted, as much respected, 
and that her opinion was as anxiously 
desired by other powers, as had ever 
been the case* He agreed, indeed, 
in the observation of the hon. and 
learned gentleman, that she was not 
now in the same state as she had 
been in some other periods of her 
hisloiy. But why was this? Be~ 
cause the whole state of the world 
had changed, — ^because (whether it 
were r^t or wrong, he would not 
encpnre) diere were now great pre- 
pondecating poweis which possessed 
widiin themsdves more stroigth and 
reaources than they could command 
in fiinner times— more strength, per- 
haps, than ought properly to belong 
totfaem; but as those elements were 
in being, tbey were compelled to deal 
with them in proportion totheirweight 
and importance m the general system. 
IGnisteiB were taunted for the pati- 
ence with which they viewed the 
oonduct of those powers. They were 
taunted on account of the internal 
abuses wfaidi existed in those coun- 
tries (hear, hear) ; but he should be 
^ad to know at what time it was 
eiBtamaiy to interfere in the internal 
r^rolations of foreign states? He 
would look back to die re^ of king 
WiDiam or queen Anne, and he 
wodd ask if an alliance were then 
made with the emperor of Germany, 
or with the most despotic prince tiuit 
ever sal on the throne^ whether their 



anoestors wodkl have criticised the 
conduct of those who carried on the 
n^otiation, because they bad entered 
into a compact with the sovereign of 
a country, the oonstitntion of winch 
was different from their own ? They 
oould not alter the constituticm of 
states. They could not make a new 
world. They oould not form a 
worid 

" OfoM cnttre and perfect clnyioUle." 

They must deal with the worid a» 
it was: they could not figure and 
&shion it to suit their own conve- 
ni'ence. Was it policy, he demand* 
ed, to hold no communion except 
with states which possessedfree con- 
stitutions. If it were so, then our 
alliances must be extremely narrowed 
indeed ? If there were to be no al- 
liance with those who were termed 
despots, would they ever have been 
able to liave overthrown that oo-^ 
lossus of despotism, before whose 
throne almost the whole worid had 
bowed the knee ? (Hear.) The horn 
and learned member had stated, 
that things were going on in Au»* 
tria and Italy which were sufficient 
to make one^s blood run cold He 
(Mr. Canning) confessed he was ig- 
norant of such transactions ; but he 
believed he knew sufficient to dilect 
his mind to the proceedings to which 
the hon. and teamed member al- 
luded. Trials for conspiracy, be 
understood, had taken place at Mi- 
lan, convicdons had fouowed, and 
sentences had been ponounced. The 
testimony might be i&lse ; the wit* 
ness^ might have been peijured ; 
the judges mi^ be corrupt. He 
did not know diat this was the case,, 
but he would even assume it to have 
been so; and even if it bad been 
so, (hd the hon, and learned gentle- 
man mean to say that this country 
was thaefose to break off with Au». 

tria> 



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tfia ? What was to be. done (he 
wished to know) with Austria, in 
the view of the hon* and learned 
gentleman ? How wasthegap which 
her aboence would leave to be filled 
after we had lost her ? Were we to 
abolish her as a power, or to take 
up anns against her, because her 
internal anangements did not meet, 
our approval ? Or were we, in our 
alliances, to consider the political 
relations of the peculiar state we 
leagued with — ^its leading features of 
power and interest — the body of the 
state itself, without going into the 
analvsis, or trying the expediency 
of mddental laws and practices 
which our better judgment, per- 
haps, or happier constitution, might 
teach us to look at with abhorrence ? 
He (the right honourable secertaiy) 
believed, however, that the honour- 
able and learned gentleman was 
mistaken as to the facts upon this 
subject He knew, certainly, that 
two of the chiefs of the conspiracy, 
(of whose guilt he neither meant, 
nor was competent to judge) had 
received the mercy of the emperor 
of Austria—- and not without a strug- 
^e on the part of some persons 
who were of opinion that such lenity 
ought not to have been extended 
afi^rthey had been condemned to 
death upon their own confession. 
Certainly, if the honourable and 
learned gentleman in this transac- 
tion imputed any severity to the 
Austrian government beyond the 
due administration of the law, he 
(Mr. Cannii^) decidedly believed 
that he would find himself mista- 
ken. The hon. gent, spoke of im- 
prisonments, of dungeons, and ex- 
torted confessions ; but the fiact was, 
that by the law oi Austria — (a law 
which he did not mean to uphold) 
by the law of that country, no cri- 
minal could be executed unless he 



dki confess faisguilt Such a oovnfete 
might seem strange to us, who were 
accustomed, not unfrequently, to 
see men hsmged with protestatioiiB 
of innocence upon then* lips : and 
at the first blush it seemed a hu- 
mane course, though he (the right 
honoinable secretary) thou^ it ab- • 
surd — ^first, because the desu^ed con- 
fession, when obtained, might not 
be true ; and again, because the 
evidence might he such as toren^ 
der confession unnecessary. But, 
while he guarded himself against 
being understood, for he did not 
think it was his duty, either to vin- 
dicate the conduct of states with 
which drcumstanoes might throw 
the country into alliance, or to 
make himself master of this or that 
particular trial with which those 
states might be connected — ^whilst 
he guarded himself against being 
taken to be standing up for, or ex- 
plaining, ordefendmg the condiict. 
of Austria in these particular 
ceedings ; yet, if other nations jv 
of us as we took upon us to jv 
of them, what imputations 
not be cast upon this oountiy merely 
on account of the late horrible 
proceedings at Hertford ? (Hear.) 
What mi^t not be said about pub- 
lic eulogiums upon the hardihood 
and consistency of a convicted, un- 
confessing murderer ? If it were to 
be said abroad that the British peo- 
ple were admirers of the mintkrer 
Thuitell, would not such a criticism 
be as fair as that of the hon. and 
learned ^ntleman opposite ? The 
next pomt to which he would ad- 
vert, and he should do it, in a 
word, was the observation of the 
honourable and learned member 
opposite upon his question last ses- 
sion about Switzerland. The an- 
swer which he. (Mr. Canning) had 
given to that question, he hod given 

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at the time in perfect sincerity ; and 
iHien the honourable gentleman said 
that he owht to have been better 
inlbnned (by so well paid a mis- 
sion) upon the subject, that aigu- 
ment certainly did not apply ad 
hominem, whatever other merits it 
might lay claim to. If the quan- 
tity of information derived, was to 
^l^pend upon the payment of the 
miBBion, ne, upon that principle, 
ought not to have been mfbrmed, 
for he bad reduced the costs of the 
nuBsbn by one half. ('^Hear," and 
laughter.) In point of fact, how- 
ever, he had not been informed in 
the shgl^est d^ree as to the reports 
in question, when he had given his 
answer to that effect to the hon. 
and learned gent* : and it was only 
on going to his office about a quar- 
ter of an hour after, that he had 
found the same detail of facts upon 
his table which the hon. gent, bad 
opened in his speech— coming per- 
faaps, fiom the very same source 
from i^nchthey had come to the 
hon. gent As to the reports of 
an Austrian prince having been in 
view at any time for Switzerland, 
he bdieved there was not a shadow 
of truth in the story. For the 
cfaaige of harbouring conspirators, 
and the remonstrances, he would 
only say thus much — that if the 
accusations had been true, the re- 
monstrances were justifiable. But 
he believed that both the hon. and 
learned gent, and himself had been 
miiled in what that statement of facts, 
as it was called, contained ; and that 
a great part of the stories circulaled 
alMoad had been founded upon the 
solicitations of ill disposed persons 
in Switzerland herself, who de- 
sired — and there were some whom 
he knew to be capable of such a 
purpose—who desired to bring the 
great poweis of Europe upon their 



country ; because they themselves, 
in the objects of some particular 
faction, had been defeated. The 
more he ' thought upon the subject, 
the more he was convinced that 
such had been the fact ; and as to 
the Austrian prince, he believed 
such an idea had never existed but 
in the brain of the drawer up of 
those state papers which had fur- 
nished him vnth his information as 
well as the hon. and learned gen- 
tleman opposite ; and had, in met, 
teased every court in Europe, which 
would look at the writer's lucubra- 
tions. With respect to Germany, 
as regarded those circumstances up- 
on which the hon; and learned 
gentleman had commented, he 
certainly could hardly conceive a 
more inconvenient arrangement than 
that power of the German diet to 
interfere with all the states of which 
Germany was composed. But tiie 
independent state ( Wuitembeig) to 
which the hon. gendeman alluded^- 
this independent state which had been 
interfered with, was part, let it be re- 
collected, of the G^man federation. 
He himself thought the principle was 
bad ; but it was not fair to call an 
application of it a flagrant outrage. 
The power in question might, or 
might not, have beeii exercised im- 
propeiiv as reeaided a particular; 
but still it was me law. And, even 
under any circumstances, was it to 
be said that, wherever there had 
been an improper interference with 
a paiaeraph in a newspaper, we, 
Englana— were to blot out mat state 
from Europe, and to say we would 
have no alliance with it ? The hon* 
gentleman must give ud the old 
worid, and look only to the new, if 
he meant to establish such a princi- 
ple. He knew that it was main- 
tained by some, that England ou^t 
to set herself up as a barrier for all 
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Euiope to {Nrinciples of despotic 
monarchy ; but he could not be per- 
suaded that it was the policy of ^g- 
land to do lightly any act whidi 
might plunge hen^f and all Euiope 
into a bloody^and unceasing war. Of 
all the w9TB--and, unha^[nly, we 
had exp^enced but too many vaiie- 
ties of them— of all the wars which 
we had seen, and which had brought 
tksolation in their train, the ware of 
opinipn had been decidedly themost 
fetal; and a single spaik flashing 
unhappily fiom the hasty zeal of 
England, mi^t light up a oohfla^ 
gradon on the continent, which no 
aAer exertions could extingui^-- 
might lead to a contest of opinions 
and principles which would divide 
alljfae nations of Euiope, and only 
terminate, probably, at last, with the 
total destruction of one of the con- 
tending factions. Was this, then, an 
object for England to aim at ? Was 
this to be laid down as the intent by 
which ministeis were to reeuhte their 
conduct? Or might they pe allowed 
to say that their object was peace, be 
the components of that peace more 
or leas p^ect? To see England 
moving steadily in her own orbit, 
withKHit looking too bicdly to the 
conduct of the poweis in alliance 
with her, — ^to see her content with 
her own glory, and by that g^oiy 
exciting oSier nations to arrive at the 
aaine cdvante^es whidi her peculiar 
^tem bestowed upon her ; but not, 
by a wild crusade, or endeavouring 
tp force those advantages upon free 
countries, converting blessings info 
^^uraesaa respected them, andcouit- 
Uig danger and difficdty as regarded 
hmelf ? It was this course which 
he (the right hon. secretary) took Id 
be ifae liue policy of England. It 
was witli this view to peace, while 
peace might.be nudnlained, that 
^oveiUmeiit had acted, luid was pre- 



pare^ to act. But it <£d not fblkyw 
becaMse.lbey forbore to seek for dif- 
ference, that when it came it would 
not find them on the alert; or tbat 
the strength which had slumbered 
would be the less effective when 
called into action. (Hear, hear.) He 
did not know (Mr. Canmng conti- 
nued) that in what had fallen from 
the hon. and learned member oppo- 
site, tiiere were any points forlher on 
/whkh he needed to detail! the house ; 
but he would just say a very few 
words^ veith teference to those obsefu 
vations about Ireland which had been 
made by the honoinable seconder of 
the adtfaess at the conclusion of his 
speech. As to Ireland, he wished it 
should be undentood diat his senti- 
ments were what they had ever been. 
He retained all his old opinions with 
respect to that country; and fidly 
believed, that sooner or later, those 
opinions would make their way in 
England ; but he differed from the 
opinions vduch had been laid down 
by the honourable and learned gen- 
tleman opposite. There was no woid 
which, in parliamentaiy oratory, was 
more bandied about than the word 
*^ inconsistency ;" and, in ^neral, 
he who chaiged another wHh that 
offence did not measure the consist- 
ency of the accused by his own, but 
by some arbitrary standard that he 
chose to set up. Now it might be 
an absurd opinion to hold, Uiat in 
the present state of public feding in 
land, the catholic concession 
not (to use the common poT'^ 
lance) be carried as a *' govemmoit" 
question, and that the public flotti of 
me country did not imPord material 
for an administration, united upon 
that point, and npon other questions 
of paramount impoitance; -Buf^if 
that opinion of has was absurd, it 
was not an opinion of the p«sent 
day ; it was ttie opinion which he 

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had always. expceBBed inthatfaouBe; 
and ^* iDOOBsisteiicy/' as he took it, 
was the differingy not fiom othan, 
b«t horn onesei£ The boa. eentle- 
men, however, on the opposite bench, 
thought it expedient to charge him 
with inconsistency in his conduct 
with respect to the catholic question ; 
and by father a whimsical choice, 
they had laid hold of that paiticnlar* 
penod of his public life in which he 
had enjo^ the amplest opportunity 
ftr sfaowmg what his sentiments upon 
that question really weie. Itwassaid 
of him, that in the year 1812 he was 
willing to become part of an admi- 
nistcation which was to consist of the 
marquis Wellesley and himself, and 
other gentlemen on the same side of 
the house; that. that administration 
would have been an administration 
united upon the cathc^c question; 
and that merefore it was inconsistency 
for him to act with any government 
otherwise constituted. Now, who- 
ever nu^t be the historian that had 
lefened to this passage of his (Mr. 
Canning's) life, ne 1^ looked, by 
some accident, at only part of the 
transaction. If he had examined 
one side of the page as carefully as 
he had perused the other, he would 
have foimd (continued the right hon. 
secretary) *«that in the year 1812, 
when as royal hisfaness the prince 
legent intrui^ to lord Wellesley and 
myself the task of formii^ a govern- 
ment, the stipulation of lord Welles- 
ley was,, that lie should make propo- 
sals to some of the gentlemen on the 
opposite side ; and my stipidation— 
vmit was it ? Was it to exclude the 
proCestantfactionyas it is called, alto- 
ffither ? No; but it was that I iJiouki 
be at liberty to make proposals to 
lord Liverpool, which, accordingly, 
I did." Such, then, had b^^ ms 
(bright hon. secretary's) expression 
of bis opinions, not when he had 



beeDcaOed on to join a government, 
but to fonn one. It was true that 
loid Liverpool had declined taking 
offioe with, that government; and 
also that he himself had not thou^t 
it necessary, iqxm that reAisal, to 

g've the thing up. But hischoiGe 
id been a government composed of 
mixed elements; and hk opinion 
was still, diat if the catholic qnestion 
was to be carried, it would be caiu 
ried by an administration which made 
it, not a government <juestion, but 
a general one. He did still ' 
that the prejudices of England i 
in time be reasoned down; andl 
in time the catholic question mi^t 
find that support in the country which 
he was sorry to say he did not think 
it found at present By whatever hand, 
or at whatever period, that question 
shouM be broi:^ht forward, it would 
receive from hun, vrhether in or out 
of office, the best support which he 
could ^ve it But it would still 
find him believing that nothing 
was to be gained by attempting 
to carry the point in the wav of a 
government question ; and that (if 
that were necessary) there did not, 
moreover, exist materials at the pre- 
sent moment suffident to form an 
administration concurring upon thai 
subject, and upon oth^ also on 
which it would be necessary for thmn 
to agree. He had said, and he meant 
to keep his word, that he would not 
travel into any part of the speech 
which had not been toudied upon by 
the honourable and learned gentle- 
man (Ikfr. Brougham.) There was 
one most important point in it, which 
he should therefore leave at rest, feel- 
ing that it was not because its value 
was underaated, that it had for the 
present been passed by the gentle- 
men on the other code. The speech 
of the honourable and learned mem- 
ber opposite had gone chiefly to mat'- 

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ten of foreign policy; and he faad 
endeavoured to explain to the house 
the course which, upon tfaet head, 
^venunent had pursued. The speech 
^m the throne contained an ao- 
•^count hy ministers of their steward- 
ship, and of the policy which they 
had pursued since the bouse had last 
met; and if, upon that statement, 
they did not come forward to chal- 
lenge approbation, at least they were 
to meet criticism without 



The address was then put from the 
chair, and carried; and the bouse 
^joumed at twenty, minutes past 
teven o*clocL 

House of Commons^ Februarv 4. 
— Mr. Rowland HiU appeared at 
the bar with the report of the address 
tohismuesty. 

Mr. Hobhoate said he would take 
that opportunity of proposing one or 
two questions to the right honourable 
secretary for foreign aSairs. He must 
enter his protest, as his honourable 
and learned friend had last night 
done, against being supposed to con- 
cur with the sentiments contained in 
the address, so for as regarded the 
foreign policy of the government 
'He UK>uld think that he disgraced 
himself by approving of the forei^ 
policy of mmisters, for, in his opi- 
nion, they had been totally unmind- 
ful of the renown of their countiy. 
He had attended with the utmost at- 
tention to every word which dropped 
from the right honourable secretary 
opposite, la^ night. It was not sur- 
prising that he should do so, for all 
Europe was attendii^ to what he 
said, conscious that on his words, in 
eome degree, depended its very fote. 
There was one point upon which he 
thought the right hon. gentleman was 
sot sufficiently explicit in his ex|^- 
xkgtion, — ^namely, the South Ameri- 
<ean states. The right hon, gentleman 



s^ypeared to be aware of the difficid^ 
of the subject, and touched upaa it 
so lightly as to sadsfy no person, ex- 
cept, p^haps, his colleagues, who 
might have reasons for wishinffto 
preserve secrecy on that topic The 
right hon. secretaiy had said diat he 
considered it a ^ grace and favour 
done to Old &)ain, to allow her an 
' opportunity of attempting to recover 
possession of her colomes.'* He- 
would admit that if the king of 
Spain were csqable of governing hia 
kmgdom without foreign assistance, 
he should be allowed an opportunity 
of employing the resources of me 
once mi^ity monarchy of Spain in 
the attempt to re-oonquer his trans- 
atlantic colonies. But did the riffht 
hon. gentleman mean to say, mat 
whilst the king of Spain was only 
kept on his throne by the presence 
of 70,000 French troops, whilst Bar- 
celona, Cadiz, and every important 
fortress in his territory were in pos- 
session of the French, Ferdinand was 
to be suffered to employ his armies 
in an expedition against South Ame- 
rica? It could not surely be said 
that because the constitutional sys- 
tem had been put down in Spain, 
and there was at presait no ap- 
pearance of a re-action, Ferdinand 
was therefore to be called a free 
kine. if he was before a priscmer 
to £e constitudonalists, what was he 
now ? He was hemmed round widi 
foreign bayonets; and every body 
who was acquainted with the state of 
Spain, knew that if the French army 
was to withdraw from tha^ oountiy 
to-morrow, the unfortunate king- 
unfortunate he meant only with res- 
pect to his bad character, and not 
for his misfortunes— -would be driven 
from his throne. He wished, thim, 
to know from the right honoursdile 
gentleman, whether, while the French 
troops were in possession of Spain, 

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the govemment of dus oountcy vfovld 
allow any attempt to be made on the 
part of a merely nominal king to re- 
coyer possession of the South Ame- 
rican states ? He might allude to an 
important omission in his majesty's 
speech. The house had heard a great 
deal during last session about a posi- 
tive guarantee on the part ot the 
French ministers, and that there 
ahould be no permanent occupation 
of Spain by the French trcx)p6. The 
right hon. gentleman had not told the 
house wheuier he had asked Monsieur 
Chateaubriand how long his master 
meant to keep possession of that 
country. He (Mr. Hobhouse) dared 
to say that the right hon. gentleman 
had ^ed the question, and he thought 
that the house of commons had a 
light to know what answer had been 
returned. He hoped that the ri^t 
honourable gentleman would not take 
the word of the French king for a 
guarantee. The word of no king 
was a suarantee, much less of that 
king lAo had pledged his sacred 
void of honour and the sceptre which 
he wielded, that what he called the 
army of observation should not cross 
the Pyrenees. After that shame- 
less breach of promise — rafter that 
felsehood which would have disqua- 
lified a private individual for the so- 
ciety of^gentlemen— -he trusted that 
ther^ht honourable ^ntleman would 
not attach much weight to the word 
of the king of France, or of his mi- 
nister Chadeaubriand. (Hear, hear.) 
He would now take the liberty to al- 
lude to another matter not uncon- 
nected wirh the foreign policy of go- 
vernment. He would wish to know 
whether the colonial secretary had 
been informed of the reasons for the 
iisuii]^ of a recent proclamation in 
the Ionian Islands. (Hear.) The 
proclamation was so very extraordi- 
Dsuy, that he should suppose it to be 
1824.] 



the result of a drunken frolic, did not 
the high situation which sir Thomas 
Maidand held, r»ider it impossible 
for him to suppose that that officer 
could so far forget himself as to be 
guilty of such folly. But when they 
knew that sir Thomas Maitland had 
issued such a proclamation as this. 

Suiting two of the Ionian islands un- 
er quarantine for thirty days, and 
when they recollected that tms same 
governor had committed one of the 
most flagrant bi-eaches of quarantine 
in his own case, one could not help 
feeling astonishment at the occur- 
rence of which he (Mr. Hobhouse) 
now complained. The reason as- 
signed by sir Thomas Maitland was 
a£o singular : he states that prince 
Maurocordato having approached too 
near the islands, the quarantine be- 
came necessary, lest the British go- 
vemment should appear in any way 
involved, or as partakers, in the 
cruelties elsewhere inflicted— and in* 
flicted by whom ? By the Greeks ; 
for he appeared in every instance to 
attack the Greeks, and to overlook 
the Turkish share of the atrocities 
which had been committed. Now 
he could assure the house, and on 
the authority of an eye-witness of 
what had occurred, that the affair off 
the shore of Ithaca had been much . 
misrepresented. The facts were 
these — a small Greek squadron hav- 
ing chased three Turkish armed ves- 
sel off that coast, mastered one of 
them, the crew of which, however, 
escaped on shore ; and then, while 
the Greeks were rowing to the cap- 
tured vessel, poured from the land 
upon them a murderous fire. The 
Ghreeks immediately landed in their 
turn, and took some revenge upon 
their opponents. But so rar from 
the Gredks standing upon their jus- 
tification for this retaliation, pnnce 
Maurocordato madeon their part the 
D humblest 



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humblest apologies for the infraction 
of the neutral shore; and similar 
^ligies were now on their way to 
England. But why throw all those 
acts upon the Greeks ? The Turks 
had repeatedly been guilty of similar 
mftactionS) witbout drawing doym 
upon their heads the anathema of sir 
lipomas Maitland. When he adverted 
to the conduct of this governor, he 
by no means wished to impugn the 
conduct of the government at home ; 
he knew that they could not prevent 
the atrocities o( either side, as long 
as they observed their neutral policy ; 
they could no more prevent the 
Gredcs and the Turks, than they 
could the Spaiuards and the Frencli^ 
or the Itahans and the Austrians, 
though he preferred the Turks to the 
latter, and he knew both. (A laugh.) 
He had the original Italian procla- 
mation in his ^d, and was ready 
to present it to the right honourable 
secvetaty. 

Mr, Ckmning 8aid» that he should 
be always re^y to receive from any 
hon. member whatever information 
upon foreign affairs he thought pro- 
per to favour him with; and also 
teady to afford such information as 
his official duty permitted him to 
fbcniflh, in reply to any specific in* 
quiiy. But when the hdli. gentleman 
sulveited to some part of Sie obser- 
vations which Ml ftom him (Mr. 
Canning) last n^t, he seemed to 
have compounded his statement of 
prineiptoBwith his statement of ftos. 
What be had said last night respect- 
ing the relative international situation 
tyf a mother coontiy and her colo- 
nies was this— ihat in principle a 
mother country had a right, if she 
thoughl sbehsid the power, to endea- 
vour to reeover possesBion of any 
coloDfes winch had by any efibrt oi 
their own tlnown off herdoiminion; 
and '^»t rto other country in amity 



with her, would, upon the naked 
principle, be justified in intercqitin^ 
her efforte, or interfering in the first 
instance to endeavour to prevent 
them. She had a right (ona ,/Scfe to 
a resumption of her colonial posses- 
sions, it she were in acondition to 
reclaim them, and it would not be 
correct in a friendly power to pre-^ 
vent her. When he said correct, he 
meant upon the strict principle of the 
law of nations, for circumstances 
mi^ render it correct to go to war» 
ana the interference in the first in- 
stance might be deemed a dedara^- 
tion of war. This was the abstract 
principle he had stated, and which 
he maintained ; otherwise they would 
be avowedly interfering with a legi- 
timate right not abjurra by the mo- 
ther country, and would be aiding 
the governed against the governor. 
The hon. gentleman had gone on to 
put certain poasiUe violations of neu- 
trality; now, he would not follovr 
him l^ arguing upon assumed pro- 
babilities, or possibilities, wnich 
might demand a departure from the 
afa^ract principle he had laid down ; 
but he (Mr. Canning) would most 
distincdy state, that Spain, that Eu- 
rope, knew most unequivocally, that 
whilst England admitted the right of 
Spain to recover her late American 
possessions, she denied the ri^ of 
any foreign power to interfere in aid 
of the mother country in the attempt 
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the 
ultimate intentions of France upon 
Spain, he felt a difficulty in sat^fy- 
ing the hon. gentieman, in conse- 
quence of his observation that the 
British government ought not to give 
credence to tiie declsffations of the 
French king or his ministers ; for he 
knew not how to satisfy the hon. 
gentleman if he refiised nim access 
to the official channels of communi- 
cation which the government had 

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always maintained with the other 
powers in amity with them. But if 
the hon. gentleman would permit 
him to resort to the regular informa* 
tion of his office, he could assure 
him in reply, that the government 
had the mostpositive assurances from 
the court of Fiance, that they did not 
contemplate the permanent occupa- 
tion of Spain. He gave credit to 
those assurances, and would believe 
them sdll, notwithstanding the doubt 
which the hon. gentleman had cast 
upon them. When he stated this, he 
l)^ged also to say, that he retained 
all the sentiments he had last year 
expressed respecting the French ag- 
gression upon Spain ; but whilst he 
retained those sentiments, he must 
be permitted to add, that the vice of 
the agression apart (hear, hear) , the 
conduct of the French armies {always 
separating' their conduct from the 
pnnciple of their entrance] was as 
unexceptionable as it could possibly 
have been under any circumstances 
of military conflict He doubted 
whether history furnished a amilar 
example of the discipline of a foreign 
army engaged in the invasion of 
anodier state ; dr rather, as in this 
instance, called in by invitation to 
assist a predominating, partv in^ut^ 
^ng down a rival faction. He hoped 
he had said enough to explain the 
principle he had laid down respect- 
ing Spain and her colonies; he 
denied the right of England to inter- 
fere ; .he equally denied the right of 
any other power to interfere in the 
contest How far a species of con- 
nivance to blind the pMn meaning 
of his principle might hereafler be 
set up by one power or another, he 
could not say, and he would not now 
argue. He wished to be judged 
solely by his principle, according to 
its plain an^ fair oonstructiony and 
ib^t he thought enough to argue on 



the present occasion. As to the hon« 
gentleman's second question, he had 
only to repeat, with the same confi- 
dence he had stated it last year, that 
he apprehended there was no dang» 
of the permanent occupation of Spain 
by France. If a question were put 
to him, how long the duration of mat 
occupancy should continue, he should 
reply, that that was an event so en- 
tirely dependent upon circumstances, 
as to render it impos^ble for him to 
give an immediate reply ; but there 
was one question to which he was 
ready at the moment to give an ex- 
plidt answer. If he 'were asked, 
ought the French army to evacuate 
Spain to-morrow ? as a fnend to hu- 
manity, he must say no.- With re** 
spect to the affairs of Greece, he 
believed he was in possession of the 
requisite information upon that sub- 
ject If e had not at present, although 
he had received the document, an 
exact impression upon his memory 
of the facts of the outrage to which 
sir Thomas Maitland's proclamation 
referred ; but he believed the facts to 
foe these — ^A small Greek squadron 
had pursued some Turkish vessels 
into tne harbour of Itlfiica, where the 
crews of one of the latter landed ; 
they were pursued ashore by the 
Greeks, who butchered, in cold Uood, 
90 out of 120 men, of whom the 
crew was composed; and this was 
done upon an island guarded by 
British neutrality. On tl^ subject of 
the impartiality with which the neu- 
trality was enforced, he could dis- 
tinctly aver, that according to th« 
best information he had it in his 
power to obtain, from th/e moment 
the neutrality was proclaimed, it was 
most strictly enforced against both 
parties. That outrages on both sides 
had been commi^fced, was as clear as 
it was to be lamented ; but not ihe 
smallest desire had been evinced by 

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the British authorities to incline the 
balance either to the one side or the 
other. 

The report was then brought up 
and agreed to. The address was or- 
dered to be presented to his majesty 
to-morrow by such membeis as are 
of his majesty's privy council. 

House of Lords, Feb. 9.— 7%6 
earl of Shaftesbury presented his 
majesty's answer to the address voted 
on Tuesday last, in which his ma- 
jesty thanked their lordships for their 
loyal and patriotic address. The 
answer was laid on the table, and 
ordered to Ije entered on the jour- 
nals. 

The bishops of Limerick and Ra- 
phoe took the oaths and their seats. 

House of Commons, Feb. 10. — 
The chancellor of the exchequer 
brought down to Uie house his ma- 
jesty's most ^cious answer to their 
address, which, after being read, 
was ordered to be entered on the 
journals. 

Upon the motion of the chancellor 
of the exchequer J the house resolved 
itself into a committee of supply. 

The chancellor of the exchequer 
moved, that a. sum of 33,663,000/. 
shoidd be voted to his msyesty for 
the discharge of outstanding exche- 
quer bills. 

Mr, Hume wished to know whe- 
ther it was the intention of the right 
hon. gentleman that these bills should 
bear the same rate of interest as 
hitherto, or whether any reduction 
was to be made in them. 

The chanceUor of the exchequer 
said, that the question of interest 
could not in any way apply to the 
sum in the vote now before the com- 
mittee ; and he was not, perhaps, at 
this moment at liberty to give an 
answer to the hon.^gentleman's ques- 
tion. At no distant period he should 
hare to advert to the subject, but he 



was not willing now to say any thii^ 
which might have the effect of ex- 
citing erroneous expectations. 

Mr. Hume thought no time could 
be more fitting for the question he 
had put than the present ; but if the 
right hon. gentleman felt any deli- 
cacy about answering it, he should 
press it no furtlier. 

Mr. Herries said the hon. gentle- 
man mistook the nature of the vote,^ 
It was for replacing the bills voted 
last year. The interest upon those 
bills was fixed, and could not now 
be altered. There would be another 
vote, at some future time, for the 
new bills ; and then would occur the 
proper opportunity for discussing the 
question of the interest— The vote 
was then agreed to. 

The chancellor of the exchequer 
then moved that a sum of 368,100/. 
should be granted for paying off the 
exchequer bills voted for public 
works, fisheries, and building addi- 
tional churches. 

Mr, Hume asked if this sum was 
included in the million originally 
granted on account of the new 
churches ? 

The cliancellor <^ the exchequer 
said part of it was mcluded in that 
sum. — Agreed to. 

On the motion of the chancellor 
of the exchequer 9 1,500,000/. was 
granted for paynftnt of ,me interest 
of exchequer bills up t^ 1824, and 
2,000,000/. for discharging the like 
amount, granted in the supplies fbr 
1823. 

Mr, Hume expressed himself not 
quite satisfied with the explanation 
given to the question be had previ- 
ously put respecting^e interest. 

Mr, ifeme/ explained, that the 
bills to which the hon. gentleman's 
question applied, had bmi issued at 
a certain rate of interest ; they were 
issued one year, and discharged the 

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next : when they came in to bepsiid 
this year, the amount of the interest 
th^were to bear would be fixed. 

The motions were then agreed to, 
and the house resumed. The report 
was ordered to be brought up to- 
morrow, and leave obtained to sit 
again on Friday. 

Feb. l6.--^Mr. Sergeant Onslow 
having obtained leave on a former 
day to bring in a bill for the repeal 
of the usury laws, and the bill hav- 
ing accordingly been brought in and 
read a first time, the second reading 
was appointed fbr this dav. On the 
motion that it be reaa a second 
time — 

Mr. Davenport rose to give it his 
most decided opposition. The coun- 
try had grown great and flourishing 
under the present svstem of law — 
where, then, was the necessity of 
altering it? Besides, the alteration 
proposed .would be particularly dis- 
astrous to persons mih small landed 
estates, and would absolutely ruin 
all those who had bought them ten 
yeare ago, when land was high, and 
when there was no objection to leav- 
ing part of the purchase-money im- 
paid upon it *This bill might raise, 
but QDuld not lower, the present rate 
of interest ; and as he feh more for 
the borrower than he did for the 
lender, he could do no, less than 
move, as an anfendment, that this 
bill be read a second time this day 
six months. 

Mr. Branshy Cooper seconded the 
amendment, because he thought that 
the repeal of the usury laws would 
open a door to fraud and extortion 
on the one hand, and to reckless 
profuaon and extravagance on the 
other. 

Mr. Hume contended that this bill 
was quite as much to the advantage 
of him who borrowed as of him who 
lent money. It would, he thought. 



be beneficial to all classes of society, 
if the lending of money was assimi- 
lated to the practice observed in ef- 
fecting insurances, where the person 
by whom a ship or cargo was in- 
'sured was not prevented oy any sta- 
tute firom demanding whatsoever rate 
he nleased. Every transaction of 
this kind ought to come fairly before 
the public ; and if any thing unjust 
or unfair appeared to have been 
done, the individual aggrieved might 
seek redress through the common mw 
of the country. He could see no 
reason whatsoever for postponing the 
second reading of the bill. It ought 
to be fully discussed, and an oppor- 
tunity given to those who opposed 
it to bring forward their arguments, 
if they had anv. It ought to be ob- 
served, that the ordinary interest of 
money was, at the present moment, 
from three to four per cent being 
considerably under the rate fixed by 
the statute. The country was, m his 
opinion, much obliged to>^e learned 
gentleman for persevering>ith this 
measure. 

Sir J. Wrottesley supported the 
amendment During three hundred 
years, the uniform practice of the 
government of this country had been 
to prevent extortion and usuiy, by 
enacting those laws which some in- 
dividuals now wished to be repealed. 
This country, instead of being in- 
jured, had been greatly benefited by 
the usury laws. Since the period of 
the last act, that of queen Anne, 
there was no country in wliich capi- 
tal had accumulated to so great an 
extent as it had done in mgland ; 
and yet they were now called upon to 
repeal laws which had brought the 
whole capital of the country into the 
metropolis. If they were repealed, 
it bught not to be on mere theoretical 
grounds— some practical good should 
b^ pointed out as likely to be effected 

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by the measure. He oontended that 
those laws had done no practical in- 
jury to the landed interest. In times 
of distress, it was true, they borrow- 
ed money at ^ great disadvantage. 
But it should not be forgotten, that 
when they gave redeenuuble annui- 
ties, those annuities might, in time, 
be taken up. The persons who now 
lent money to the landed interest at 
three and a half per cent, would, if 
those laws were repealed, change 
their demand with every fluctuation : 
DOW they would have four, now five, 
now six per cent In short, there 
would be no certainty in the mo^ 
ney market If, in times of dis- 
tress, the landed interest could bor- 
row money at five per cent what 
would become of the commercial in^ 
terest ? In proportion as the secu- 
rity thev had to offer was worse than 
that a£K>rded by the landed interest, 
would the lender demand a more 
exorbitant rate — not less, perhaps, 
than 10 or 12 per cent Infact,tiie 
mercantile and manu&cturing inte- 
rests would be reduced to the utmost 
distress if those laws were repealed. 
Let the house also consider the si- 
tuation in which the government 
would be placed. During the hst 
war, whilst the mutiny at the Nore 
was raging, when the bank restriction 
act was passed, and when the public 
fimds were under 50, no dimculty 
was experienced in borrowiii^ mo- 
ney ; but he was convinced, if those 
laws had not then existed, that go- 
vernment would not have been c£le 
to raise the money which was abso- 
lutely necessary. They would not 
have had that preference in the mar- 
ket which they ought always to have ; 
and they would have been compiled 
to pay an interest of 10 or 12 per 
cent If, therefore, ike repeal (k 
those laws was calculated to starve 



the merchant and manuiacturer, and 
to bj^gar the goverxunent, the house 
ought to throw out {his bill, and that 
too by such a majority as would in- 
duce the learned gentleman never 
again to bring it forward. 

Mr. J. Smth said, the hon. baro- 
net seemed to fear that the mercan- 
tile and manuitouring classes, and 
even the government itself, must suf*- 
fer by the repeal of those laws. Now, 
without entering into much argu- 
ment on those points, it might be 
enough to state, that the laws against 
usury had been done away all over 
Europe, and no harm had occurred 
either to governments or individuals; 
but, on me contrary, it was to be 
believed that the interests of all par- 
ties were much improved by that re- 
peal. (Hear.) One or two circum- 
stances had come under his own 
observation, wliich proved that those 
laws had occasioned the most de- 
structive effects* to fiamihes in this 
country, by compelling them to raise 
money by way of aimuity. (Hear.) 
M(mey> tike every other commodity, 
ought to be allowed to fetch its just 
value in the market Now, if an 
individual wanted to borrow money, 
which, if these laws were not in ex- 
istence, he might procure for 7t per 
cent he would be obliged, in tis 
endeavour to evade tiiose laws, to 
pay 13, T4, or even 15 per cent 
(I&ar.) The hon. baronet luul only 
to refer to the evidence given before 
the committee, and there he would 
find those £icts distinctly proved. 
The hon. baronet expressed some 
fears as to the situation in ^^ch the 
commercial body would be placed, 
if this bill passed Now he (Mr. 
Smith), as one of that body, must 
say that he had not the slightest i^ 
prehension on the subject He con- 
fessed that he never had met a man 

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for whose jnc^ent he had any re- 
spect, who entertained a doubt -on 
the question. (Hear). 

ilfr. Grenfellmdy the chief aigu- 
ment a&ainst the bill was, that the 
effect of the repeal of the usuiy laws 
would be to raise the interest of mo- 
ney. Now, in Holland, there never 
was any restraint on money dealings ; 
and he could state it from his own 
experience, as well as from histoiy, 
tha^ there was no country in Europe 
where the rate of interest has been 
and is so low as in the United Pro- 
vinces. (Hear.) He hoped, there- 
' fore, that government would coun- 
tenance this measure, which was in 
perfect unison with the liberal course 
of policy they had recentKr adopted. 
(Hear.) 

I^, Huskiss(mssdd he had been a 
member of the committee to whom 
&is subject was referred in 1818, 
and who had reported their senti- 
ments to the house.' The opinion 
he bad formed in that committee he 
still entertained. Indeed he Imd 
never varied from it He need hardly 
say that it was entirely in unison 
with the object of the learned ser- 
geant. He considered those laws as 
onty calculated to create 'difficulties. 
(Hear.) 

The chancellor of the exchequer 
said, when this question was brought 
before the house last session, he voted 
gainst the proposition, not because 
there was any advantage in the prin- 
ciple of the existing laws, gainst 
which, on the contrary, many argu- 
ments could be advanced — ^but be- 
eauae he was not prepared to say that 
the moment had amved when par- 
liament ought to repeal those laws. 
He did not think that the opposition 
to the measure was no\^ so strong as 
it was last year ; and if it were desi- 
rable at all that those laws should be 
altered, he conceived the present pe- 



riod was as good as could be selected. 
(Hear.) 

Mr. Cakraft said, it would be 
veiy difficult, he was aware, to de- 
fend those laws in point of principle ; 
but, in point of practice, he must 
say that it would be dangerous, 
without a great deal more considera- 
tion, to alter those laws in a coun- 
try where there was so general and 
90 beneficial a distribution of capital, 
and. where money was to be had at 
all times at so low a rate of interest. 
If the learned gentleman with whom 
this measure originated thought, 
while government was in the mar- 
ket, that any change of the law would 
make tKe loan of money cheaper to 
individuals, he was veiy much mis- 
taken. He (Mr. Calcraft) believed 
the repeal of those laws would raise 
the price of money to government, 
instead of reducing it Gentlemen 
seemed to suppose, that by carrying 
this measure, mdividuals would be 
saved from ruin, because they would 
not then be obliged .to get into those 
annuity contracts imder which so 
mimy families suffered: they be- 
lieved that a complete end would be 
put to all ruinous money contracts. 
JBut it was utterly impossible to hope 
for any such results, unless, at the 
same time that those laws were re- 
pealed, they contrived to alter the 
conduct ana temper of individuals. 
By repealing those laws, they would 
facilitate the borrowing of money by 
extravagant persons, without con- 
ferring any advantage on the steady 
and industrious part of the commu- 
nity, whom they ought especiadly to 
protect He was not on the com- 
mittee— (The hon. member was here 
reminded that he was a member of 
the committee.) If he were on the 
committee, he had certainly forgot- 
ten the circumstance. (A laugh.) 
He had, however, read the evidence ; 

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and had he known that the learned 
sergeant's brat, which had been ban- 
died about from session to session, 
was to have been taken up by go- 
vernment, he would have brought 
down that evidence, and proved that 
it did not bear out the view of those 
who supported this measure. No 
advantage had been pointed out that 
would at all warrant them in em- 
barking on such a speculation. There 
was no country — not even Holland 
itself— in which wealth was so greatly 
increased, as it had done in England 
during the period when those laws 
were m operation. 

Mr. Sergeant Onslow defended the 
bill. The gentleman who seconded 
the amendment, and the hon. hart, 
had fallen into veiy great mistakes 
with regard to these laws. They had 
spoken of the policy in which the 
usury laws originated; but let them 
look to the preamble of the old law, 
and they would find it therein stated, 
that to take interest at all was crimi- 
nal, because it was ** aeadnst-a chris- 
tian principle." ' Yet Siis, the early 
law, was what they praised as highly 
politic. Of course the lending of 
money fell into the hands oi the 
worst of usurers, who charged not 
only in proportion to the risk they 
ran, but who charged also on account 
of the odium they were compelled to 
endure. They were told that this 
measure wouid destroy the landed 
interest, who at -present could raise 
money by redeemable annuities. So 
th^ coyld, and so they had done ; 
and the evidence taken before the 
committee proved that they paid 10, 
12, 13, and even 14 per cent This 
was the excellent remedy which the 
hon. bart wished them to resort to* 
It was also said that the commercial 
interest would be borne down by this 
measure. Let them look at the evi- 
dence ag^in, and attend also to what 



had Men finom his hon. friend (Mr. 
Smith). It was notorious that cohei- 
mercial men, when in difficukieBy 
had, to evade these laws, harrowed 
stod£, and lost 30 per cent by sell- 
ing it. His principle was, that, like 
all: other traaes, the trade in money 
should be unfettered. 

Mr, A. Baring said, the subject 
of making a change in the usury 
laws was,, undoubtedly, one of very 
considerable importance. It was, 
however, a change which would 
produce no immemate effect wfaat^ 
ever; and it was because it would 
not produce any effect, that the pre- 
sent appeared to^ him to be the best 
time for making the alteration — if for 
no other purpose than to remove a 
system of false legislation on this 
Subject It was, as his hon. fnend 
had said, as improper to fix a moxt- 
mam on the value oi money, as on 
the value of any other article what- 
ever. This was the only period, for 
the last half century, when puliar- 
ment could safely l^islate on those 
laws, in support of which the inge- 
nuity of those who approved of them 
afforded no argument. It was stated, 
that notwithstuiding these laws, there 
had been a great accmnulation of 
money in this cotmtiy. But the 
reason was, because those laws, with 
respect to capitalists and monied 
men, had been quite inoperativey as 
they were very easily evaded. It 
was strange that the very class which 
would, alx)ve all others, be benefited 
by the repeal of those laws— namely, 
the country gentlemen, should view 
the measure with so much appre- 
hension. (Hear.) The interest taken 
in this subject by that very respect- 
able class of men was-most evident ; 
and therefore the question ought to 
be 'discussed, in order that they 
might declare their sentiments, and 
that an endeavour should be madejto 
remove 



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remove their apprehensions and pre- 
judices, if possible. If» in a sub- 
sequent stage of the pfoceedings» 
those wbo supported tlie measure 
were not able to persuade the coun- 
try gentlemen that this bill would not 
be injurious, but favourable to them, 
they might then except from its pro- 
visions sdl loans of money on mort- 
gage, and repeal the law as it re- 
spected the manufacturer and mer- 
chant If the country gentlemen 
pleased, they would thus be left to 
enjoy all the benefits of the present ' 
system, which, so far from being 
useful, appeared to be the greatest 
injury and curse they could labour 
under. (Hear.) 

CtqtUdn Maberh/j sir W^de Ores- 
pigny, and Mr. J. Mcartiny severally 
expressed themselves in favour of the 



The house then divided, when 
the numbers were — ^For the biU, 
120 ; against it,* 23. — Majority for 
the second reading, 97. 

Sir George Clerk rose to bring 
forward the navy estimates for the 
present year. The vote called for 
was £320,000 more than had been 
taken last The hon. hart, observed, 
that the unsettled state of some parts 
of the world — ^the probability that the 
piratical depredations in die West 
Indies, which now had entirely 
ceased, would recommence if our 
strength were diminished — ^and the 
necessity of maintaining our inde- 
pendence in the Mediterranean, were 
reasons fully sufficient to justify the 
additional application to parliament. 

After some remarks from Mr. 
Warrey Mr. Hume^ and other mem- 
bers, the following resolutions were 
agr^ to r — 

For granting £885,950, for wages 
for 29,000 men. 

£584,350, for victuals, at the rate 
of IL lis. a man per month. 

£282,750, for wear and tear. 



• £94,000, for ordnance for the 
sea service. 

Sir G. Clerk now proposed to 
move the ordinary estimates. 

Feb. 23.— On the motion of the 
chancellor of the exchequer y the house 
went into a committee on the four per 
cent acts. In the committee the right 
hon. gentleman expressed his satis- 
fl^ction at being able, at so early a 
period of the session, to open a g;e- 
neral view of the financial situation 
of the country. In time of war, a 
proceeding of this kind was obvi- 
ously not practicable ; since it was 
quite clear that it was impossible, at 
so early a period of the session of 
parliament, to state with any degree 
of precision, the extent of the effort 
which parliament might be called on 
to make, under circumstances of a 
hostile nature. In time of peace, 
however, no such dif!iculty| existed ; 
and the committee would agree with 
him in the very great importance of 
having a statement of this nature 
made to parliament as early in the 
session as possible. Such a course 
.enabled the house to watch with 
more vigilance— with more jealousy 
(and such vigilance and jealousy he 
would be the last man to censure or 
discourage)— any proposition which 
the government might tliink proper 
to submit to them. It also gave 
them an opportunity of a more at- 
tentive and detailed examination of 
those great branches of receipt and'- 
expenditure which the circumstances 
of the country demanded. He felt, 
therefore, that in following the 
course he had taken in the last year> 
he should pursue that line which 
was, at the same time, most conve- 
nient to parliament, and most ad- 
vantageous to the coimtiy. Acting, 
then, on that principle, and with a 
view to give to the committee the 
fullest information in his power, re- 
specting the situation in which oik 
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finances now stood, and of the mea- 
sures which it appeared to his ma- 
jes^'s government expedient for 
paruament to adopt, he would pro- 
oeed, in the first place, to state to 
the committee the revenue, expen- 
diture, and surplus of the last year, 
aiMl then to furnish them with the 
best estimate he could form, of the 
receipt, expenditure, and surplus, of 
the ensuing year. Havii^ done 
this as a matter of detail, he should 
next call the attention of the house 
to those observations which appeared 
to him to grow out of this state- 
ment of their financial situation, and 
to the measures which it was his in- 
tention to propose. 

From a document which had been 
laid on the table of the house, the 
committee were aware that the sur- 
plus of last year amounted to 
6,710,985^. 10*. did. It was, 
however, necessa:^ to deduct from 
this the sum of 5,000,000^ being 
the portion appropriated by an act of 
the last session, for the ginulual di- 
minution of the national debt The 
surplus, therefore, of the last year, 
available for public purposes on this ' 
occasion, was 1,710,985^ the 
estimate which he had to present to 
the house of the revenue, expendi- 
ture, and surplus for the present 
year, was as follows : — 

INCOME. * 

Customs. . . . £11,550,000 

Excise 25,605,000 

Stamps 6,800JOOO 

Assessed taxes, &c. . 5,100,000 
PostK)ffice .... 1,460,000 
Miscellaneous items, 
which it was not ne- 
cessary to recapitu- 
late 730,000 



Making . . £51,265,000 
To thbhe must add that 
portion of the money 
repaid by Austria, 



and which had come 
into the exchec^uer . 1,500,000 
And the sum paid W 
the trustees of hal^• 
pay and pensions . 4,620,000 

Making a gross total of £57,385,000 



CONSOLIDATED FUND. 

The estimated expenditure of 1824 
was as follows : — 

Firet, the charge on the 
consolidated fund — 
permanent expenses 
not depending on 
annual votes of the 
house— interest and 
management of the 
public debt . . £27,973,196 

Interest on exchequer- 
bills issued under an 
act of parliament, 
passed some years 
ago, to meet the gra- 
dual accumulation of 
the consolidated fund 
on account of the 
half-pay and pen- 
sions ' 100,000 

Annual and permanent 
charges on the con- 
solidated fimd— civil 
list, &c 2,050,000 

Half-pay annuities . . 2,800,000 

Sinking fund .... 5,134,458 

Making . . £38,057,654 

SUPPLY. 

Interest of exchequer 

bills .... . 1,050,000 
The army estimates, in- 
cluding extraordina- 

ries 7,490,945 

The navy estimates . 5,762,893 
Ordnance . . . ; 1,410,044 
Miscellaneous . . . 2,611,388 



Makmg a total of £56,332,929 
Deducting 

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Deducting this from a revenue of 
57,385,000^, of wMch he had pre- 
viousty given die estimate^ there 
would remain a surplus at the end of 
the year (after applying 5,134,458/. 
to die reduction of the deht) of 
1,053,071/i making a surplus on 
die two years of 2,373,000/. 

Having troubled the committee 
with this mere detail of figures with- 
out any observation, he would now 
inoceed to state what it appeared to 
him essential that parliament should 
take into consideration when looking 
at these returns. In the first place^ 
they were called on to examine the 
actual receipt of revenue in 1823, as 
compared with the esdmate wluch 
he had laid before the house in the 
last session. He had at that time 
calculated that the amount of customs 
wDuM be 10,500,000/. He did not 
think that he took a sanguine or 
oveistndned view of the capabilities 
of die countiy, in rating the customs 
at that sum : he did not mean to lay 
before parliament an estimate which 
he had not every reason to believe 
would be &irly and truly realized to 
its utmost extent But, so &r finom 
over-rating the probable amount of 
the customs, he had really under^ 
rated that branch of our resources, 
lo hctj such had been the increase 
of our foreign commerce — such had 
been the immense advantages derived 
irom that free system of trade, of 
which he had always been the hum- 
ble advocate, and which government 
bad manifested the utmost anxiety 
to adc^ as fast as ciicumstances 
would permit— (bear) — ^and owing 
also to the increased ^ilities of con- 
Bomption which were known to pre^ 
vail m eveiy part of the ooimtcy, that 
be had now the ;ntisfaction of stating 
that the revenue of customs did really 
pvoduce in the £ist year not less than 
1 l,498,762/.beingneariyl.000,000/. 



more than he had anticipated. (Hear.) 
This statement, he flatt^^d hfanseL^ 
would be most gtdJafymg to all who 
heard him ; and he would take the 
Hberty, by and by, to state what his 
views for the future were. The house 
would dius have an opportunity of 
exsunming that course of policy 
which, he conceived, the government 
and the country had abundant rea^ 
sons for contmuin^. (Hear.) The 
exdsedid not exhibit exacdy the same 
result ; but he shoidd have.no diffiw 
cid^ whatever in satisfying the com- 
mittee, that though the actual receipt 
of excise^m the last year, had fallen 
short of the estimate laid before par- 
liament, yet that the diminution ooukl 
be clearly and fairly accounted for. 
It could, indeed,* he piov^, by a 
reference to documents, that with 
reeped to articles charged with ex- 
cise duties, so fiir firom there being 
any deficiency in their consumption 
during the last year, there had really 
been a veiy considerable increase. 
When he last year estimated the ex- 
cise duties at 26,000,000i he had 
counted items which ought to ^have 
been omitted. The actual receipt 
was 25,342,828/. This difference 
between his estimate and the amount 
really received, arose from some cir- 
cumstances which he did not advert 
to when he formed that estimate.. 
He omitted, in the first place, to at* 
tend to the £act, that a considerable 
sum remained to be paid on the 
stock in hand when the malt duty 
was diminished in 1822. One pay- 
ment of 1,700,000/. was then to be 
made, and consequendy that branch 
of the revenue must be greater then, 
than it could be in the past year. In 
addition to that circumstance, it would 
be remember^ that gwins to the 
distress which prevailed m those 
places where hop-cultivation was 
carried on, government thought it 

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fit to see how far a postponement of 
the payment of the hop-duties would 
relieve that pressure. The conse- 
quence of this was that instead of a 
hop-duty of 320,000/. being received 
in 1823, an arrear of only 47,000/. 
was paid into the excise. Besides 
those causes of depreciation in the 
amoimt of excise auties, a vexy con- 
siderable diminution was effected by 
another measure which passed that 
house in the course of last year. He 
had witnessed the progress of that 
measure with very great satisfaction, 
because he thought it would ultima- 
tely produce good effects— he meant 
the act of parliament which related 
to the distilleries of Ireland and Scot- 
land. (IJear, hear.^ When that al- 
teration was contemplated last year, 
he had stated that it would produce a 
considerable diminution of the spirit 
duty, although he could not say pre- 
cisely what me nature and extent of 
that reduction would be. Therefore, 
he had avoided making any calcula- 
tion of the probable Joss that would 
take place in this department of the 
revenue, when the new measure was 
carried into effect. It was, however, 
obviously impossible to make a 
change of this nature in so large and 
extensive a branch of the revenue as 
the duty on spirits undoubtedly was, 
without causing a considerable reduc- 
tion in the amount collected. A di- 
minution of duty had been followed 
by a certain diminution of revenue. 
That diminution was not so great in 
Ireland and Scotland, as in England. 
The reason of this was, that the Eng- 
lish distiller, being doubtfnl of the 
effect of the new measure, did not 
like to speculate. He beheved one 
of the great leffects expected finom the 
measure was, the total destruction of 
illicit distillation (hear) ; and he was 
of opinion that, her^iter, the loss 
annually contemplated would be less 



C 



than that which had been sustained 
in the past year ; because he thought 
it would be found, not that the con- 
sumption of spirits wouldbe increased, 
which was by no means a desirable 
object, (hear, hear), but that those 
spuits which would in future be con- 
sumed in Ireland and Scotland would 
pay the r^ular duty. (Hear.) And 
if that were the case, then there was 
no ground for supposing that the re- 
venue would really' s^er any loss 
hereafter, although there was a di- 
minution last year. He felt it to be 
matter of prudence to adhere to the 
measure which had occasioned the 
loss to which he had adverted, which 
loss he was convinced would be fully 
made up at no distant period. It 
was owing to these three circum- 
stances that the excise revenue of last 
ear did not rise to the amount which 
had confidently anticipated. It 
would, however, be seen that the di- 
minution was occasioned by the cir- 
cumstances which he had succincdy 
pointed out, and not by any decrease 
of consumption. He could truly state, 
that of all tliose articles which paid 
excise duty, there were, Uterally,veiy, 
very few indeed, the quantity sold of 
which did not exceed the average of 
preceding years. With the exoep- 
tion of one or two articles, the quantity 
of exciseable commodities consumed 
last year, considerably exceeded the 
quantity consumed in tiie preceding 
year. With respect to auctions, beer, 
bricks, coffee, cocoa, cidei; bark, &c, 
there had been a considerable increase 
of excise. There had been a falling 
off in the excise on hops, which was 
a most fluctuating article, depending 
on the state of tiie weather, to a de- 
gree of which persons not connected 
with the trade in that commodity could 
scarcely form an idea. , Last year was 
very unfortunate for that species of 
crop, and the duty was considerably 

less 



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61 



less than that which was collected in 
the preceding year. It ought, how- 
ever, to be recollected, that the crop 
of the preceding year was veiy great. 
There was, in licences, a smaU di- 
minution—about 8,000 in number 
less than in the former year. With 
reelect to malt, there was a diminu- 
tion in the quantity on which the ex- 
cise duty had been paid. For this, 
he confessed, he could not very pre- 
cisely account; because the quantity 
of beer on which duty had been 
charged was considerably increased ; 
and he knew not how to reconcile 
the hdy of an increased consumption 
of beer, and a decrease in the quantity 
of malt consumed. (Hear, hear, and 
lai^fater.) He believed it arose from 
the different periods at which the 
payments were made : in addition to 
p^ch, it was well known that the 
barley-harvest had not been produc- 
tive, and the price, therefore, was not 
so low as it would otherwise have 
been. These circumstances might 
certainly have the effect of causing a 
partial diminution in this department 
of the excise. Still, however, the 
amoont was considerably above what 
it had been in many other years. 
The amount of excise on pepper, and 
CD printed goods, had improved. On 
salt, there was a very large increase — 
(hear, bear.) Soap and starch had 
also {voduced an increase of revenue. 
There had been a decrease on British 
^liritSy and an increase on foreign 
spirits. Qn tea, tobacco, snuff, and 
stone bottles, there was a considerable 
iDcrease. So that, out of this long 
list, there were scarcely four articles 
that presented a diminution, while on 
all the others the increase had been 
very considerable. It was not, it 
shcMild be observed, an accidental in- 
crease of the last year over the.year 
before, but an increase over the year 
which preceded that ; which last men- 



tioned year, he woukl remind the 
house, was more productive than that 
which it immediately followed. It 
was, in fact, a gradual and progres- 
sive increase of revenue, occasioned 
by a regularly increasing consump- 
tion, (hear, hear), and proved most 
decidedly the truth of wKat was stated 
to the house, in the speech from the 
throne — namely, that the country 
was in a state of prosperity — ^nay,he 
believed jie might venture to assert 
that it was in a state of unexampled 
prosperity. (Hear.) Stamps had 
produced 6,801,950/. Taxes, under 
the management of the commission- 
ers of taxes, had been calculated to 
produce 7,10a,000/. but the ac- 
tual amount of the last year was 
6,202,990/. which was occasioned 
by the adoption of a measure which 
he by*lio means grudged, and which 
had given great pleasure both to the 
house and the country — he alluded 
to the large reduction which had 
been made in the assessed taxes. 
The items of miscellaneous receipts, 
and on matters of annual recurrence, 
exceeded the estimate which he had 
laid before the house last year. 

The supplies of the year were 
farther increased by the payment of 
766y666l on account of the Austrian 
loan. This was a subject on which 
he wished to address a few observa- 
tions to the committee. He believed, 
when the question of that loan was 
discussed on former occasions, there 
were very few persons who expected 
that this country would ever receive 
any portion of the loan granted to 
the emperor of Austria (hear ;) and 
it was 'but fair to say, that it was a 
subject of by no means easy adjust- 
ment : because, thoi^h, in £sict, his 
imperial majesty had received the 
money fiom this country, and those 
who lent it had a legal neht to claim 
it, yet, considering all that had oc- 
curred 



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PARUAMENTARY DEBATES. 



curred since ^t sum was borrowed, 
he thought, in point of equity, it 
would be paiticuJarly hard on Aus- 
tria if we attempted to iness on her 
fbrthe payment of the wnole amount. 
{Hear, hear.) His majesty's govern- 
ment were more sanguine than those 
who believed that no portion of the 
money wodd ever be paid, because 
they knew that the emperor of Aus- 
tria possessed that high feeUng of 
honour which would induce him to 
bring the question to a satisfactory 
adjustment at the earliest period. 
They knew tlmt they had to dc»l with 
a sovereign, who, whatever had been 
said of him — and he )iad heard many 
harsh observations apphed to him in 
that house — ^was as high-minded and 
honourable a monarch as ever ex- 
isted. There was not, he believed, 
a more virtuous or a more honoura- 
))le being in existence. He had the 
misfortune to reign in a country where 
the government was of that descrip- 
tion which they denominated abso- 
lute. He performed acts, from the 
very nature of the institutions under 
ivhich he governed, and under which 
his people lived, that might appear 
to those who were blessed with a more 
liberal constitution, as worthy of cen- 
sure and reprobation : but he feh that 
idiis question of the loan concerned 
his own private honour, and there- 
fore he deemed it necessary to meet 
the de;nands of this country. The 
difficulties opposed to an arrange- 
ment were very great; for it was 
evident that the finance minister of 
Austria could not send over to this 
countfy a very large sum of money 
without imposing on the people great 
burdens to meet that object Such 
an appropriation of the funds of the 
country would certainly not be a po- 
pular measure ; and those who had 
to make good the necessary sum would 
not enter into all those nice feelings 



of honour which led the emperor 
of Austria to adopt the plan which 
had been carriea into effect He 
tfaoupjht the proceeding was highly 
creditable to the emperor of Austria, 
and he could not nelp considering 
the sum recovered as a Godsend f^^ 
(Laughter.) 

He had now explained to the 
house all that appeared to him to be 
necessary, arising out of the view of 
the finances of the last year ; and he 
would next ask of the house to accom* 
pany him while he made a few obser- 
vations with respect to the finance of 
the present year. He took the cus- 
toms at 1 1,550,900/., being 50,000/. 
more than the receipt of the last year. 
He only added this sum of 50,000/., 
because, if he erred, he wished to 
err on the right side; he did not 
think it prudent to be too sanguine; 
and, firom the various changes which 
had taken place in the deputment of 
the customs, from the consoUdation 
of the customs in three parts of the 
island, they mi^t, he thought, safely 
anticipate a savu^ of 50,000/L a year 
in that part of ue expense of col- 
lecting which arose out of the diri- 
sion of different ports. Much praise 
was due to those gentlemen who had 
the charge of that most efficient com- 
mission by which the consolidation 
of the customs was effected (hear, 
hear), which commission he meant 
to ask of the house of commons to 
prolong. (Hear, hear). The duty 
they had to perform was »very difii- 
cult one, and they had executed it so 
meritoriously, so hon^y, so bene- 
ficially, that he should be sorry if the 
coimtiy were deprived of their ser- 
vices. (Hear, hear.) The excise he 
estnnated at 25,625,000/L This was 
not actually more than the produce 
of last year, considering the stock of 
malt in hand, and that the loss which 
was then occasioned by the postpone- 
ment 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



63 



ment of the hop-duty would not oc- 
cur in die present year. He would 
not give any very minute calculationat 
the present moment, but would con- 
tent himself without overrating the 
finances of the country, to state what 
expectation he had formed, and which 
he flattered himself would prove cor- 
rect, of the produce of the different 
departments. He took, then, the 
customs at 11,550,000/. ; the excise 
at 25,625,000/.; stamps 6,800,000^; 
taxes under the management of the 
commisaoners of taxes 5,100,000/. 
He made this estimate on the calcu- 



with the land tax in Great Britain, in 
1820 and 1821, prior to any reduc- 
tion of those taxes having taken 
place, amounted to 7,510,000/., and 
since that period there had been 
a leducdon of 2,696,300/., which, 
if taken from 7,510.000/., left 
4,814,000/. as the probable annual 
amount of the assessed and land 
taxes, &C. He, however, took the 
amomit for this year at rather more, 
because there were certain arrears to 
the amount of 300,000/. Then there 
were the proceeds from the post-of- 
fice, amounting to 1,460,000/., and 
the miscellaneous, amounting to 
730,000/., which did not appear to 
him to require any explanation. Then 
there was 1,500,000/. on accoimt of 
the Austrain loan, and 4,620,000/. 
fiom the trustees of half-pay, so that 
the total produce of the year would 
be 57,385JOOO/., which would leave 
a surplus over the expenditure for the 
year of 1,052,076/. He. believed 
that he had now gone a step too fast, 
fiir he ought to have stated to the 
home the amount of the expendi- 
ture. As to the first point of which 
it consisted — ^namely, the charge on 
the consolidated fimd, — ^it was not 
necessary fiyr him to say more than 
that it amounted to 38,057,654/., 



including 5,134,458/. for the sinking 
fund. Upon the head of supplies, 
he was not aware that it was at pre- 
sent necessary for him to offer any 
remarks, as those for the army and 
navy had already been voted by the 
house, and those for the ordnance 
had also been submitted to it It was 
sufficient for him to know that the 
supplies for the army and navy had 
b^n sanctioned by large majorities 
of the house, in the m^e in which 
they had been originally proposed ; 
no valid objection would or could be 
offered to those which an honourable 
fnend of his would shortly propose 
and he could not suppose that any 
for the ordnance department He 
believed that the committee would 
find that every reduction had been 
made which could be made without 
impairing the efficacy of the different 
services, and he should therefore 
proceed without further circumlocu- 
tion to the last item in the list- 
namely, to the estimate for miscella- 
neous services. This item, which in 
the last year amounted to 1 ,700,000/. 
or thereabouts, would amount in the 

E resent year to 2,611,i388/. Now 
e felt himself bound to explain the 
circumstances under which this in- 
crease had taken place. He had 
aheady adverted to the unexpected 
treasure which had been poured into 
the exchequer in consequence of the 
treafy for me repayment of the Aus- 
trian loan. He could not conceive 
that the house would have any ob- 
jection to avail itself of that treasure 
to obtain certain objects of great 
public and national importance ; on 
the contrary, he was sure that it 
would seize with avidity the opportu- 
nity thus afforded it, of making some 
expenditure, not, indeed, of ordinary 
occurrence, but of such a nature as 
it would have been difficult to meet, 
had it not been for the fortunate re- 
sources 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES- 



sources which were thus unexpect- 
edly placed at the command of part 
liament The committee was most 
probably aware, that a few y^ars a^ 
an act was passed enabling certam 
commissioners therein named to ap- 
ply 1,000,000/. of the public money 
to the erection of new churches. 
That such an object was a great na- 
tional object, no man who valued 
the church establishment of the coun- 
try could possibly deny; that the 
vote by which it was effected had 
the sanction of a large majority of 
that house, was a fact which nobody 
could dispute ; and that the measure 
was right in itself^ and beneficial in 
its consequences, was a point about 
which it was quite impossible to en- 
tertain a doubt That the dispensa- 
tion of the money to be appued to 
such purposes haid been fairly and 
properly ordered, and that it had 
been attended by great advantages, 
which could have been acquired in 
no other manner, were matters that 
were equally clear. It had afforded 
to our fellow-countiymen in the 
humbler walks of life, the means 
of attending the national church in 
ease and comfort — a consununa- 
tion of very considerable import- 
ance, on account of the increas- 
ing numbers of our intelligent po- 
piuation. Though much had been 
done already by the commissioners, 
much still rebiained to be effected. 
There could not be an object of 
greater importance, or one more 
worthy of the free parliament of a 
free country, than to enable the go- 
vernment to extend Jbo the public at 
large the benefits which a portion of 
it kul already obtained. He should 
therefore propose to the committee 
to vote 500,000/. for this object 
(Cries of hear, from Mr. Hume.) 
Notwithstanding the doubts of the 
propriety of this grant which the 



honourable member seemed to en- 
tertain — doubts which he had heard 
him express before, and which did 
not surprise him, considering the 
feeling which the honourable mem- 
ber h^ always exhibited towards the 
church — (hear, hear, from the mi- 
nisterial benches) — notwithstanding 
these doubts, he believed that the house 
at large would vote it with pleasure, 
whenever it should fall to his lot to 
propose it (Hear, hear.) There 
was another object to which he in- 
tended that part of the money re- 
cently obtained from Austria should 
be applied — ^he alluded to the repairs 
of Windsor casde, that noble and 
ancient residence of the kings of 
England. He was convinced that 
the people of England, with their 
attachment to constitutional monar- 
chy, and with that proper pride 
which they had always felt in con- 
ferring on their monarchs every 
thing which can add tb their real 
dignity, would not deem it either in- 
consistent with their feelings, or in- 
jurious to their character, to vote the 
applicatioii of part of this mon^ to 
the repairs of that noble and vene- 
rable structure. He would not have 
the committee siropose for a mo- 
ment, that either his majesty or him- 
self bad any wish to throw tne public 
money away on it (Cries of " No, 
no," and a laugh, on the opposition 
benches.) He cUd not know the 
meaning of cries which he had just 
heard. He would, however, tell those 
who had raised' them first of aD, that 
Windsor castle required considerable 
repair, and therefore that some ex- 
pense must at any rate be incurred. 
That being the case, it appeared to 
his majesty^s ministers th^ some al- 
teration mightbe convenientlveffected 
at the same time in some of the build- 
ings belonging to it, and also that 
some additions might be made to the 
domain 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



65 



^ it So for, how- 
ever, was any body from having a 
desire that the money should be idly 
or uselessly expended, as certain ho- 
nourable members seemed to iqppre- 
hend, that it was the express desire 
of his majes^ that the expenditure 
of it should not be controlled by 
himself or by sjxy one branch of the 
government The government was 
also anziouB that the money should 
he vested in a commisBion a{^inted 
for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) He 
was not at that moment prepared to 
name the pa-sons who were to form 
that commission ; but he could assure 
the committee that the selection of 
them would be made without any 
reference to the political parties by 
wfaidi that house was divided, and 
that the whole duties of it would be 
discharged with as much ability, in- 
tegri^, and utility to the nation as 
had ever been displayed by any com- 
mission whatever. The total sum 
which he should want for this object 
would be 300,000^ ; but he intended 
to fake only 150,000/. this year, and 
to throw the remaining 150,000^1 
over die next two years. JHear, 
hear.) There was another object to 
which the attention of the committee 
ought to be directed, and which was 
placed within thescope of the same 
principle which he had already laid 
down with regBsxd to the application 
of pert of these unexpected resources. 
In the last session or parliament, in 
the diflcomon which took place on 
the mnnificent gift of the king^s li- 
faraiy, and on me buildiner to which 
it was to be appropriated, lie thought 
that there prevailed a very eenml 
feehn^ in the house, that in the pre^ 
sent situation of the country, it did 
not become parliament, as the repre- 
sentative of the nation, to act a nig- 
gaad*s part in the promotion of the 
fine aits. As a mere matter of mo- 
1824} 



ney, he would not pretend to say that 
some objections might not be urged 
against the grant which he was now 
ping to recommend ; but taking it 
in a broader and nobler point of 
view — ^looking at the connexion of 
the arts with the glory and dignihr 
of the nation, and, indeed, wiUi 
every thii^ that digniBes and enno- 
bles man in his individual capacity — 
he deemed it consistent with the 
principles which a great nation ought 
to adopt, to stand forward as the pa- 
tron of the arts, and to give much 
and largely to dieir promotion and 
support. (Cheers.) As an unex- 
pected chance had thrown into the 
hands of parliament a fund upon 
which it had a right to draw, his 
majesty*s ministers felt that when a 
large collection of valuable pictures 
was offered to them for sale, there 
were many motives of liberal policy, 
inviting them to lay the foundation 
of a national gallery. In conse- 
(juence, they entered into a negocia- 
tion with the representatives (rf Mr. 
Angerstein to purchase his pictures, 
and concluded by purchasing them 
for 57,000/. He had now stated the 
principles on which he advocated 
this grant He thought that it would 
be productive of great advantage to 
the country; he knew that if there 
had been a national gallery, the libe- 
rality of individuals would have fur- 
nished it long since with some of the 
noblest specimens of art in exist- 
ence. He was speaking of circum- 
stances in his own knowledge; for 
at this very moment he knew that 
there was a collection of pictures, 
which, through the generosi^ of their 
owners, would soon find their way 
into this national gallery. (Hear, 
hear.) He thought that the example 
of this public-spirited individual 
would be followed by many others ; 
and if the resuh of it were a coUec- 
£ tkm 



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PARUAMENTAftY DEBATES. 



tion of all the treasures of art ikow 
in fhe country, with what feelings of 
pride would every Englishman gaze 
upon them, when he recollected that 
they were the free gifb of his hkh- 
minded countrymen — not the rifled 
plunder of pilkged nalaces, or the 
blood-stained spoils ot violated altars. 

i Cheers.) The sum which he wanted - 
or the accomplishment of this ob- 
ject was 60,000/. (Hear, hear.) 
He had now informed the house 
of the three items for which his 
majesty^s government thoi^ht fit to 
ask the committee to ^ve a special 
vote out of the special resources 
which had come under its disposal. 
(Hear, hear.) If the committee 
should think proper to sanction this 
expenditure, there would be a sur- 
plus of revenue above the expenditure 
for the years 1823 and 1824 of 
2,763,06 1 /., arising from the surplus 
in 1823 of 1,710,985/., and from 
the surplus in 1824 of 1,052,076/. 
Before, however, he stated the mode 
in which that surplus would be made 
available to the public service, he felt 
it necessary to Dring upder the con- 
sideration of the honourable gentle- 
men the subject upon which they 
had professedly entered the com- 
mittee. The committee must be 
aware, that the state of public credit 
was at the present moment so flou- 
rishing as to have reduced considera- 
bly the interest, of money; and the 
government had, in consequence, 
upon looking at the situation of this 
country, and its relations with ht&gp. 
poweis, and upon finding that th^ 
was no visible; and, he might almost 
add, no invisible grounds lor antici- 
pating any intemqption of tranquil- 
lity, felt it to be matter of duty to 
a\ail itself of that g»ieral reduction 
of interest to effect a reduction of 
the interest on that portion of the 
pubUc debt on which a higher rate 
of interest was paid than could now 



be obtained from anybody of private 
individuals. The committee would 
be aware, that he was now alluding 
to'the 4 per cents. The amount of 
this stock was about 75,000,000^, 
and the course which he intended to 
take regarding it was of a veiy short 
and simple nature. Before be pio- 
ceeded to describe it, he ought to 
mention to the committee how the 
law stood with regard to this stocky 
because it differed in some very ini*> 
portant particulars from the law re- 
gulating the 5 per cents. With regard 
to that stock, there was no obligation 
upon government to ^ve any notice 
to the holders of their intentipii to 
pay it off. The consequence was, 
that the house had an undoubted 
right to take the course which it h^d 
done two sessions ago, and to give 
notice, that every person who did 
not, at the expiration of four weeks, 
dissent from the proposal of receiving 
4 per cent instead of 5 per cenL» 
should be considered as assenting to 
it In that case, dissent was re* 
quired, and not assent; and every 
body knew the successful result whidh 
had attended that measure. With 
regard, hovrever, to the 4 per cents, 
the law was different The act of 
parliament by which they were re^^ 
tated, quired government to give 
six months* notice of its iutention to 
pay them off. The cousequenoe 
was, that no individual holder oould 
be paid off without such notice ; aiid 
therefore, if the ^verimient applied 
the same principle of dissent to 
them, as it nad formerly apnlied to 
the 5 per cents., six montos must 
elapse before it could ascertain what 
sum of mone^ would be reouisite to 
pay them oA Now what ne pro- 
posed to do at present was this— to 
give notice to all the holders of 4 per 
cents, that they would be paid off, 
except they assented, within the space 
of six weeks, to receive 100/. in the 

3iper 



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3f per cents, for 100/. in the present 
4 per cents.; and the proportion 
whidi he intended to pay off in the 
next October, wfaidi would be the 
eariiest period at which the reduction 
could take place, would be one-thud, 
supposing that either all or none of 
them dissented. He would iUustrate 
what he meant by an instance. Sup- 
posing one-third of the holders to 
assent, then there would remain 50 
millions to be paid off ; and of this 
sum he should propose that one- 
third should be paid!^off in the next 
October. If none assented, there 
would be 75 millions to be paid off, 
and in that case he should pay off a 
third of the whole, or 25 millions ; 
whereas, if one-third assented, he 
should then pa^ off one^tbird of the 
50 millions which would be left, or 
a sum amounti^ to between 16 and 
17 millions. "Die option which he 
should give to the holders of this 
stock would be, to be paid off at that 
time, or to receive 100/. in the 3i 
per cents., upon an understanding, 
that that stock should not be liable 
to be paid off for five years— name- 
ly, till October, 1829; thus placing 
upon the same footing the holders of 
the old and of the new 3^ per cents. 
The committee would see, that when 
the government entered upon a 
transaction of this great extent, it 
could hardly be expected that they 
^uld be able to accomplish iU 
without holding out some acrantages 
to those who came into their views. 
On that account it would be neces- 
saiy to offer them either a Bonus in 
money, or an extension in time. 
Now he conceived it to be better to 
offer them an extension in time than 
a bonus in mon^; because a bonus 
in money was calculated to intercept 
the operation of the sinking fund, 
and to impede the other imancial 
plans of government. He had before 



stated the tune which he w6ttkl aUow 
persons for their assent, and he 
wouki now add, that peoi^e out of 
&e kingdom would oe albwed a 
similar extension of time to iiat 
which had been allowed in the case 
of the 5 per cents. The result of 
this measure would be an annual 
saving of 375,000/^, or a saving of 
half per cent on the interest of 
75,000,000/. Such was the mea- 
sure virhich he had to propose to 
parliament upon this subject ; and if 
parliament should sanction it with 
Its approbation, he should a^ of the 
committee to accompany him in his 
views beyond the present year, in 
order that they mignt see tl^ situa^- 
tion in which the country was likely 
to stand, supposing that the peace ' 
should continue, which he really 
believed that it would, at the end of 
the year 1827. He wished to carry 
the attention of the committee to that 
point — not that he pretended to speak 
with any decree of prophetic inspi- 
ration, but that he thought that if the 
count^ remained at peace till the 
end 01 the year 1827, under all the 
advantages which it derived from the 
benevolence of Providence, and the 
superintending care of parliament in 
checking and controlling its expen- 
diture, it would be evident to all that 
there would be a prc^ressive increase 
of revenue founded upon the in- 
creasing prosperity of the country ; 
or, in case of war, which he for one 
did not anticipate, such an increased 
capability of meeting it- as woukL 
render us formidable to every nation 
in Europe. In the latter case some 
alteration would undoubtedly be ne- 
cessary in the arrangements whidi 
he was now contemplatii^ ; and 
parliament veould, in all probability, 
DC compelled to make what it had 
hitherto never made in vain— -an ap- 
peal to &e public spirit of the nation 

in 



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in support of its honour and in vin- 
dicatif?n of its d^nity. The view 
^ich he intended to phK» before 
die committee would enable the 
country to discern the proper policy 
which it ought to pursue, and might, 
perhaps, prevent it from taking some 
of those rash and hasty resolutions, 
which, injurious as they always were 
to private individuals, were doubly 
injurious to public communities. He 
snould assume the statement which 
he had made of te revenue for the 
year 1824 as the basis of his future 
calculations ; and he thought that no 
objection could be made to it, as he 
had not given an overcharged picture 
of the present situation of the coun-* 
try. ne hasdly knew whether he 
oi^ht to presume to trouble the com- 
mittee with the dry detail of figures 
vriiich he had then before him, rda^* 
tive to this subject (loud cries of 
hear) ; but, with their permission, 
he would state some of the leading 
items. In the year 1825, he calcu- 
lated that the customs would pro- 
duce 11,700,000/.; the excise, 
25,475,000/.; stamps, 6,800,000/. : 
taxes, 4,800,000/. ; the post-ofiioe, 
1,460,000/v; and the miscellaneous, 
730,000/., taking them nearly at the 
same rate with that at which they 
were at present In 1827, he cal- 
culated that the customs would amount 
to 11,750,000/., which was about 
250,000/. above their produce this 
year. He must now explain to the 
committee how he arrived at this con- 
clusion with reference to the present 
year. He calculated on an increase 
of 50,000/. in the course of the pre* 
sent year, when certain measures, 
which were now in contemplation, 
should be completed. There were 
items of charge which had a ten- 
dency to intercept a part of the reve- 
nue m its progress to die exchequer. 
These consisted of certain duties^ 



Iriudi during a great number of yean 
had been renewed, as parliament 
from time to time had thou^t their 
continuance neceraary, or pnvate in- 
terests had urged it He particularly 
alluded, for instance, to a bounty on 
the whale fishery, ^ch expired of 
itself in the present year. He had 
looked into the subject with Ins best 
attention, having the assistance of his 
honourable frigid, die secretaiy of 
the board of trade ; and they Doth 
considered it utberiy useless, seeing 
the immense cost and outlay at which 
the whale fishery was earned on, to 
charge the country with a bounty of 
50,(K)0/., which was too company 
tively trying to have the slightest 
possible effect upon the trade. This 
bounty, therefore, on the whale fish- 
ing, he did not propose to renew; 
and there was another — the bounty 
on curii^ fish — ^which he wished to 
see dealt with in the same manner. 
It might have been very well to give 
such a bounty years ago, when die 
English herring fishery was behind- 
hand, but the matter stood now upon 
a very different footing. Our export 
of cured herrings was goii^ on in- 
creasine from year to year. We 
rivalled our ancient compedtors, the 
Dutch, in all the maricets of Europe. 
And dus pogress, the house might 
rely iroon it, was entirely independ- 
ent of^die bounty, and owing merely 
to the dealer's Mving found it his 
interest to adopt that mode of curing 
which fetehed the highest price from 
the consumer. Tlie herrine bounty 
was no longer necessary; it had beea 
given avowedly only fbr a limited 
period ; and l^ getting rid of it, the 
country would annually save 70,000^ 
There was sdll another class of boun- 
ties, of which he had lone been satis- 
fied as to the impolicy, adthough, for 
various reasons, ne had feh inclined 
to touch them with a veiy delicate 
hand — 



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m 



katid--4ie attoded tothe bounties on 
liaeB exported Heknewhowstrone 
a feeling there existed in Ireland 
«pon the subject ; and he knew how 
important it was to do erery thing 
that reason could dictate to promote 
diat manufactiB«y and ever^ other 
manufoctuie in whidi Ireland was 
engaeed. There was no man who 
oomd feel more strongly upon the 
point than he did himself; oecause 
ne waa ccmvinced that the great cause 
of the present lamentable condition 
of Ireland was a want of employ- 
meaty and a consequent want of tliat 
Beneral good understanding whif h 
always existed, more or less, in an 
industrious and occupied population ; 
and therefore it was that he had for- 
borne the duties so long, althou^ he 
wtt convinced intenSdly of their 
inutility; and that he particularly 
wished gentlemen connected with 
Irdand to remember, that if England 
gave a bounty upon the export of 
any manufectured article, exceeding 
the amount of duty levied on the 
raw material, she positively invited 
other coimtries to tax that raw mate- 
rial in exact proportion to the bounty 
which we gave upon it manufectured. 
So that, in &ct, we taxed ourselves to 
fill the coffers of other countries, 
who would be just as much alive to 
their interests as we could be to ours, 
and no way behindhand with us as 
to the measures by which those inte- 
rests could be promoted. Looking, 
therefore, at the bounty, imder such 
ciicumatances, as a mischief rather 
than an advantage, he was disposed 
to take st^ for gradually getting rid 
of it; ana his recommendation was, 
that the bounty upon inferior linens 
--those at about 7d should be given 
up immediately; and that upon the 
higher linens should be redi»ced ten 
per cent* in eadi year, until the 
whole, by ^s course, shotdd be 



entirely abolished. In thii Way ih&> 
vevenuewould be increased 100,000^ 
a-year, and the trade really benefited 
tamer than impaired by die opera- 
tion. The items of excise and 
stamps required no particular expla- 
nation, except that gener^ he 
should state, that he did not calculate 
for the next three years on any spe- 
cific increase from an increased con- 
sumption. An increase, no doubt,' 
would take place ; but in a matter of 
such consequence he would proceed 
only upon certainty. With respect 
to toe expenditure, however, of those 
years, he should take the liberty of 
making a few observations. His 
estimates were so firamed^ as to l>e 
secure a^nst presenting too san- 
guine a view to the house. It had 
been often said, thatwidi pen and 
paper, the chancellor of the exche- 
quer <x>uld produce any results he 
thought fit; but he, for himsdf, 
thou^t that policy a mistaken one, 
and did not mean to pursue it; 
therefore he hadjcalculated the ex-« 
pense of the country, for the years 
1825, 1826, 1827, at the same 
charge, except as to the misoelia- 
neous estimate, as the current ex«^ 
pense of the present year, ahaiiitt 
farther only that decrement whieb 
would naturally arise upon the two 
foiling items of pensions and hal^ 
pay; and the result of tl»s calcula- 
tion was, that there would be a sun- 
plus to the following extent: — ^For 
the year 1823, a surplus of 
1,710,985/.; for the year 1824, a 
surplus of 1,052,076^; for 1825, a 
surplus of 372,346^ ; for 1826, a 
suiplus of 447,346^; and hr 1827, 
a surplus of 522,346^ ; the general 
total giving a siurplus at the expira* 
tion of the year 1827, of 4,135,099/.; 
and this surplus beine obtained, the 
next question was, mal to do with 
it? (Cheov, and laughter.) He 
thought 



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ibon^ tbttt we might do a great 
deal of good with it; and he was 
sure, if we oouldy we ought ; and 
he doubted not that he sl^uld find 
support from the house as to the 
mode in whidi he proposed to exe- 
cute so desirable a purpose. The 
most obvious and immediate mode 
of dealing with our sivplus, no doubt, 
would be to ctppkit in the reduction 
of our debt This would be the 
most immediate mode of dealing 
with it, and at the fiist blush might 
seem to be the best; but, at the 
same time^no man could look at the 
stater of our revenue, and at the con- 
sequences which had accrued from 
the accrnqplation of our immense 
taxation, without feeling that it must 
clearly be the policy of the house to 
review that system of taxation at 
eveiy fair cnpportunity, and to endea- 
vour to aoDpt some principle for 
placing the mdustry and revenue of 
the country in a condition, during 
its state of peace, to resist the possi- 
ble surprise of war. (Hear, hear.) 
And he therefore did propose, under 
the sanction of the house, to apply 
the surplus to at least commencmff 
a system of alteration in the fisctd 
and commercial regulations of the 
country— a system which he be- 
lieved, in its outset, would be attend- 
ed with great benefit, and would 
leave us, at the end of four years, if 
wisely followed up and persevered 
in, in a far more nourishing condi- 
tion than we were at the present 
moment (Cheers.) The first arti- 
cle, then, upon which he proposed a 
reduction was an article which al- 
ready, to a certain d^ree, had at- 
tracted the notice of the house : he 
did not promise that he could do a 
great deal upon the subject ; but he 
would do the most that arcumstafces 
would allow. The committee wbuM 
recollect, that at an early period of 



the session, when be had pnroposed a 
vote vrith respect to certain annual 
duties on foreign i^irits, a question 
had been asked with regard to the 
duties on rum ; and the lion, mem- 
ber for Bristol, as well as the hon. 
member for Aberdeen, had urged 
him very strongly to reduce the cb^ 
on that article ; the hon. member for 
Aberdeen, indeed, suggesting an 
amendment, vriien the re^rt was 
brought up, upon the subject He 
had not felt himself at liberty, at the 
time when the question was asked, 
to state what, in terms, was lus view 
upon the question ; and he thought, 
indeed, that the better mode of le- 
ducipg the duty on rum would be to 
reduce not the annual but the per- 
manent duty. He meant to propose 
such a reduction of the permament 
duty on rum as would relieve it from 
one peculiar difficulty under which 
it now laboured. No one would 
think it right or possible to reduce 
the duty lower than level with the 
duty paid upon British spiritB. 
Therefore he meant to take off at 
first one shilling and three halfpence 
a gallon do^ upon rum, which would 
make the diuty on that artide and 
British spirits nominally the same : 
he knew that there were (Mfferencea 
in the mode of levying^the twodsdea 
which would prevent that reduGdoa 
from bringing the commodities pte* 
cisely to ue same point ; but those 
who were affected, as to property, oq 
the question, would recollect that the 
British spirits were liable to the duty 
on mah ; and, taking all the dream- 
stances into consideration, the two 
interests, he thought, wodd appear 
to be very eqdtafiy balanced. He 
did not mow what effect the mea- 
sure might have upoA the dealing in 
lum, Init ha behoved that it was 
sound in prindple; aiid his olgeot 
shouki always be to abide by a soiand 
prindple» 



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principley even akhough it did not, 
at first n^tAf promise the most of 
pnctical coavenience and benefit. 
(Hear, hear.) This advantage, there- 
fore, which ne proposed to give the 
agricnltiirist of the colonies — ^the ad- 
vantage which, upon general princi- 
ples, and no less upon his pressing 
wants, he was intitled to in the mar- 
ket of England — this advantage 
would cost the revenue about 
150,000/. And the next article 
which he came to, was one upon 
which a great deal had been said, 
especially bjr the honourable mem- 
ber fi)r the ci^ of London, who felt 
wannly, no doubt, for the interest of 
his constituents— -the article which 
he alluded to was the duty on coals. 
Now it would be necessary for him 
to go fully into an explanation of 
bis view upon this subject, because 
he supposed that, at the very mention 
of touching the duty on coals,, per- 
sons would conclude that he was 
prepared to repeal that tax altoge-* 
ther* That, however, was not his 
intention at present ; and he would 
exjdain why it was not his intentioiv 
at present. The house had heard 
from the honourable member for 
Stafibrdshire .the objection which 
was felt in that country to any dimi- 
nution of the duty on sea-borne coal ; 
and, if he oould not go quite so fiur 
as to join in the feeling expressed by 
that honourable men3)er, yet it did 
happoi in the long continuance of 
particular duties, that interests sprung 
up absolutely out of those duties and 
dependeift upon them; and though 
it could not be argued tfiat any given 
dnty should pass untouched fi>r the 
sake of any ^ven interest, yet it was 
incumbent upon us to take ca^, in 
sdecting new taxes, that we chose 
wadx as would not lead us into the 
same dilenuna again. He hoped 
that such a ooufse would be found 



possible ; but the dfficuhy was one 
which we had felt for more than a 
century. The particular duty in 
question— the duty on coal — ^was a 
tax of very lone standing, and the 
consequences of repealing it could 
not all at once be dealt with. Al- 
though this tax, however, could not 
be dispensed with, it might be mo-* 
dified and reduced. As it stood, it 
pressed unequally upon different 
parts of the kii^om; and with 
peculiar severity upon the city and 
neighbourhood of London. Because 
the duty on sea-borne coal delivered 
in the country was six shillings, 
while in London it was nine shillings 
and fourpence ; and, althoiigh he felt 
a decided difficulty in dealing with 
the whole subject, yet he felt no dif- 
ficulty in relieving the peculiar grie- 
vance of the city of London. He 
therefi>re proposed to reduce the town 
duty of nine shillings and fourpence, 
and leave the duty generally stand- 
ing at six shillings ; and this mea^ 
sure, coupled with another which he 
shoidd snortly state to the house, 
would, he doubted not, effect consi-i 
derable benefit, if not all that might 
be desired. Honourable members 
would be aware, that while, on the 
one hand, sea-borne coal was charged 
in London with this duty of mne 
shiUings and fourpence per chaldron, 
there was a restrictioii in^posed upon 
the bringing in of inland coal, either 
by canal or by the Thames. .,No coal 
could be brqi^ht from inland to 
London by the Thames, under a 
duty of ten shillings per ton or chal- 
dron, he did AOt know exactly which, 
but it amounted to a prohibition; 
and the coal which came (inland) 
by the Grand Junction canal, waa 
saddled with a tax of seven shillings 
and sixpence per ton, which waa 
equal to the nine shillings and four- 
pence a chaldron ; with this farther 
restrict 



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restriction (which it would appear 
presently, however, was totally un- 
necessary), that only 50,000 tons 
annually should, under any circum- 
stances, he imported. Tnis really 
seemed to he a most ahsurd and pre- 
posterous duty. It was so high as to 
shut the commodity out ; for only a 
very small part of the permitted 
50,000 tons ever was imported ; and 
he could not see any reason for a 
moment longer continuing it It 
m^ht be necessary, while the coal- 
owner and the ship-owner who car- 
ried coals to London were saddled 
with the enormous duty of nine shil- 
lings and fourpence per chaldron — 
it might be necessary, under such an 
arrangement, to protect them against 
the competition of inland coal ; but 
if the awd-proprietors of the north 
were to have a reduction in that town 
duty of one-third, it was but reason- 
able that the consumer should be re- 
lieved from these absurd and useless 
laws, and have the inland coal, if he 
chose to buy it, subject to a fair and 
moderate duty. And this too, would 
put an end to the power which bad 
been stated to exist of ingenious con- 
trivances to enhance the price of 
coals in London beyond their natu- 
ral value, by gentlemen limiting the 
supply rather to what suited their own 
interests than the wants of the con- 
sumer. A coal-owner was entitled 
to take that advantage if he could ; 
no blame attached to his making the 
best of his market ; but then it was 
right that the consumer should be 
protected against such a practice, by 
fiavii^ the opportunity given him of 
purch^ing elsewhere at a reasonable 
rate. He would conclude, therefore, 
upon the point, by saying that he 
meant to reduce the duty in London 
upon coals. He believed that the 
measure would increase the con- 
sumptbn both of the sea-borne coal 



and the inland. He was not disposed 
to calculate the probable loss to the 
revenue at exactly what would arise 
upon the dimmution of the duty. 
The reduction of that duty, he be- 
lieved, would make about 2ft00L 
difference — the actual loss would be 
perhaps 1,000^ 

In the first observations which he 
had the honour to address to the 
house, he had alluded to that part of 
his subject upon which he would now 
explain himself more at large - the 
propriety of entering upon measures 
of more free and liberal policy in 
mercantile relations. There were 
various branches of our trade which 
it had been thought necessary to en- 
cumber with high duties in respect 
to importation, and again, in the 
opposite direction, to encumber the 
relative articles of exportation with 
corresponding restrictions and pro- 
hibitions, ^ong these articles, the 
first which presented itself in point 
of importance was the trade in wooL 
As the law now stood with respect to 
the revenue, the duty on foreign wool, 
which was but of recent establish- 
ment, was 6(L per tb. bavins been 
originally Id. The incr^isea duty 
was imposed in 1819, not, as had 
most erroneously been 'asserted by a 
part of those interested, thou^ their 
construction had been repeatedly dis-. 
owned by himself and other officers 
of the ^vemment, as a duty to effect 
prohibition, but for the benefit of the 
revenue only. Those who were in- 
terested were always told, " You can 
have no right to object to this duty so 
long as you require the produce of 
British wool to be confined to the 
consumption of the country." While, 
on the other hand, ministers had al- 
ways told the British farmers and 
growers — "We are content to re- 
move these most impolitic restrictions, 
on British wool, if you are ready to. 
consent 



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consent to tlje repeal of the restric- 
tions on foreign wool," These pro-, 
positions led to very many discussions, 
in the different pdtrts of the country : 
meetii^ were held, and the reasons^ 
were weighed by the chief growers, 
and manufacturers; various resolu- 
tions were come to, and the result, 
was a very considerable difference of 
opinion. Some held that the re- 
moval of the duty on foreign wool 
would produce less of benefit than 
was produced of evil by the existing 
restrictions, and many were anxious 
that matters should rest just as they 
were. Some were of opinion that 
an alteration could effect no benefit 
at alL But a decided majoritv were. 
of opinion, that it would be benefi- 
cial to accede to a compromise — to 
consent to a reduction of the duty with 
the permission of a free exportation. 
He owned that he could not see any 
one reasonable objection which could 
be iirged by any party to that modi- 
fication. He proposed, therefore, to 
reduce the present duty of sixpence 
on foreign wool to Id. as it stood 
bdbre, and to allow the free expor- 
tation of British wool at Id, also, 
and thus they would be enabled to 
sweep away endless statutes and re- 
strictions, now kept .up with oaths 
and ceremonies, and heaven knows 
what, none of which did any good, 
hot had only aided in preventing the 
obfect which they were about to at- 
tain — ^namely, that of putting the wool 
trade on the best possible footing both 
Ibr the manu^icturer and grower. 
The apprehensions which were en- 
tertained had no reason to support 
them. Why should they persist in 
tyiog commerce down to the eaitli ? 
He believed that, instead of loss, the 
alteration would lead to a greater ex- 
tent of consumption in the articles of 
the woollen trade, ^liich would then 
be borne to every quarter of the 



world; imd he cmild anticipate jao-^ 
thing but the most happy and pros- 
perous results from such an enlai^ 
supply being required from the in- 
dustry of the British pec^. He 
coidd see nothing, he repeated it, in 
the consequences, but absolute good^r 
and he hoped for the supp(»t of the 
house to ms propoaitiodl^ (Cheers.) 
The loss upon this to the revenue 
he estimated at 350,000/. 

The next item to consider was one 
of great importance,^ it was abiaadi 
of trade which was peculiarly Kgu* 
lated by restrictions and prohibitions. 
— ^he alluded to the silk trade. (Ikar, 
hear.) The sulgect divided itself into 
two branches — ^the lugh duties on 
the raw material, and the utter pso- 
hibition of the use of foreign manu- 
factures. He would take me last of 
these considerations first. He would 
ask, where were the supposed acU 
vantages to British commerce to be: 
found, resulting from the prohibitory 
system? Lo(& at fore^ nationsi, 
and consider well the opinion which 
they must have of our policy in ve»-: 
pect to the protection of our domestic 
manufactures. For some years pest, 
the ablest statesmen, and the most 
acute writers iqpon subjects of national 
economy, had arrived at a conviction: 
diat to maintain manufactures by a- 
system of prohibitions was exceed- - 
inglv impolitic. The government had 
made some progress in removing 
those which fettered our own affairs* 
But were they to stop short wherC' 
they were? Could they satisfy foreign - 
states of their sincerity by what they 
had already done ; or would not fo-* 
reign states rather conclude that they 
were not very much in earnest — ^that. 
they dreaded that liberaJiity of com- 
mercial intercourse in their hearts, 
which they were so frequently known 
to profess. It was ahnost impossible , 
for them not to doubt the sincerity of 

those 



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dioseprofefisioiiB. What was the feet? 
No sooner did the minister of any 
foreign state lay on a hi^ duty upon 
any article of British commerce, but, 
as was well known to his right hon. 
friend who presided at the board of 
trade, letters and petitions came in 
from the leading merchants in the 
particular commodities, calling upon 
the government to make remon- 
strances, with* a train of losing and 
adverse consequences, predicted in 
case those remonstrances should be 
made in vain. Then the ambassa- 
dors abroad were directed to state to 
die governments at which they were 
resident^ the injurious e£Pects wliich 
would accrue to British commerce if 
the new duties should be enforced. 
What was the ^neral answer? Why, 
they werecontmually met by the cha- 
racter of the policy at home : — " It 
is impossible for us to let in your 
articles while you persist in not re- 
oeiving any of ours into your ports.*' 
It was as impossible for a British 
ambassador to find a sufficient answer 
to oppose to this argumentttm ad 
Aomtnem^— it was in vain to attempt 
to elude a position of so plain and 
just a nature. They must conclude 
that we had no belief in the sound- 
ness, practically, of that which we 
professed with so much warmth in 
the abstract. He believed that the 
practical good, in proportion as they 
might have courage to try it, would 
be found to exceed the abstract sum- 
mary. ¥^y not now emancipate 
the commerce of Great Britain ? Why 
not cut the cords that tied her down 
to the eailh^ and let her nnin^ aloft, 
to convey the produce of our mdus- 
tiy to every <maiter of the world ? 
(Cheers.) What period could be 
more auspicious? Every thin^ pros- 
pered wim us— the finaiK^es euiioited 
excess, trade was flourishing, and 
capital was actuaUy floating about, 



seeking for employment It was the 
very best (^portunity which could be 
desired, to cut the l)onds of ancient 
prejudice which shackled the nation^s 
energies, and spring forward with a 
new start in the pursuit of national 
wealth. These, had he no otheis to 
ofier, were grounds sufficient for his 
propositions. But were there no 
other arguments which might be ad- 
duced, mdependent of every con- 
sideration merely of a commercial 
nature ? Was it not known that this 
prohibitoiy system was the ground 
and foundation of another system, 
which stood in opposition to the laws, 
and the civil order of the state ? It 
was only in the course of the last ses- 
sion, that the honourable member for 
Aberdeen had, in his place in parlia- 
ment, shown an example of defiance 
to those laws (hear and laughter), by 
producing from his pocket an ample 
Bandana silk handkerchief and hav- 
ing unfhrled before the house that 
unequivocal standard of smuggling, 
boated that it was impossible to pre- 
vent the importation of similar goods 
(lai^hter) : then, having oompla* 
cendy blown his nose in it (loud 
laughter), he very deliberately re- 
turned it to .his pocket. (Hear.) The 
honourable mediber knew very well 
that everv gentleman in the house 
was at hbei^ to have taken it away 
flom him, because he avowed it to 
be contraband. But could that be 
deemed an adequate restraint, or ra- 
ther could it after that be supposed that 
the restrictions could ever be made 
of sufficient avail ? It was no great 
mystery to divine, to say how Uiese 
things found their way into the coun- 
tiy. Those who happened to have 
been upon the coast must frequently 
have observed with what an uncom- 
fortable oorpul^c^ the fair women 
of England genenmy returned home, 
and how spcidily after being delivered 

of 



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of tbeir burdens, their figures wete 
seen to resume their former graceful 
limitB. (Laughter.) There was no 
end to the devices which were prac- 
tised in this way. But there was 
somethii^ behina — ^there was fraud 
•—there was perjuiy — ^there was the 
probable lesaii of every species of 
turpitude. Crime begets crime — ^nay 
more, it went on in an accelerated 
ratio; it was a parent continually 
heamg pfpgenies viiiosiores, Smug- 
liiMT, at this juncture, would be likely 
to fead to offences of adeeper charac- 
ter at another time— 'nemo reperUefuit 
harmssimus, A man would begin 
wiui smuggling in a piece of silk, to 
l^esenttD a female fhend — an object 
not only not immoral, but actually 
laudable. But th^ made it a crime. 
One step taken agamst the laws, there 
was less relunctance in allthe rest : 
there woukl, by and by, be no diffi- 
cohy in going a little farther, and 
takmg a fake oath for the purpose of 
coDOodment ; the act then becomes 
famiKar to the individual, with all its 
train of immoral consequences : the 
advantages, peihaps, would be great ; 
be would extend his practices, and 
upon a larger scale introduce gloves, 
sboes, sills, and all other articles: 
periiaps he would make money — ^his 
avarice would be excited — he would 
embaik in the most desperate under- 
takings rather than consent to the 
fiulare of his forbidden trafik. What 
^ real consquence? Ships 
! fitted out, manned, and armeo-- 
a navvy an absolute navy, was r&- 
quirea to keep smuggling in check ; 
ift had been advertedto on a previous 
evenii^-- actions were fought— and 
to all uieothercrimes were added the 
hontns of batde, and murder, and 
death. And all ^is simply to uphokl 
die interest of the Britisn silk manu- 
factmes ! ** When, Lord bless me, 
Sir/' (oootiiiued the right bonouiable 



^deman) ^'BritiBh manufiKrtured 
silks are th6ught ao well of in foreign 
markets, we have only to remove these 
prohibitions, and thc^ would obtam 
the preference over the commodities 
of every other coxmtry.*' He hoped 
that the house would think it high 
time to throw down the giki^ i£>l 
ofnrcnudicefiom the foundation whidi 
it had so im|>roperly usurped, and to* 
establish in its place the statue of 
oommerdal liberty. (Cheers.) Be- 
fiire he proceeded to deal with the 
duty on raw silk imported from the 
East Indies, he would address a word 
or two to the commercial affaire of 
that extensive portion of the empire. 
Every body knew the advantages 
which Great Britain derived from her 
commerce vath the East Indies, and 
every body was aware of the peculiar 
circumstances which attended that 
commerce. In general the cottons 
of those countries were displaced by 
the cottons of English manu&cture^ 
though from the antiquity of their 
manu&cture, the fineness of their &- 
brics, the cheapness of labour, and 
the rooted prejudices of the natives 
for die produce and institutions of 
their own territory, such a result codid 
not have been expected This, which 
was very beneficial to us, must be very 
prejudicial to them. But it must not be 
reckoned as altogether beneficial — ^it 
mi^t be, and it was injurious in 
some points of view, inasmuch as 
whatever tended to prevent the peo- 
ple of the East Indies from paying 
for our manufiictures with products 
of their own, must be prejudicial to 
our country by lessening the resources 
which the East India company had 
to draw upon among the natives for 
the means of defence, and throwing 
so much as was deficient upon our 
own resources. Every consideration 
of just and useful policy was in fovour 
of admittii^ their goods to the home 
market. 



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He pioposed to reduce the 
duly on raw silk imported firom the 
East Indies from 4«. as it now stood, 
to 3d a pound; the du^ on raw 
ailk inmoited from China and Italy 
from ^ Gd to 6d a pound; the 
duty on Brazilian raw silk from 
14s. lOci to 7s. ed. per pound. All 
piohifaitians on manufactured articles 
should he done away ; anduisteadof 
them he proposed to admit plain silk 
goods in the piece at 38. per pound, 
Sffuxed silks at 20s. per pound, all 
omer silks at 30 per cent ad vah^ 
rem; and upon shoes, gk>ves, rib- 
hands, laces, and other things — which 
coidd not be kept out, make the laws 
as severe as they would — 30 percent 
ad valorem dojity. Upon some of these 
last articles, he was not prepared to 
say that the poticy now proposed 
should be permanent and in no re* 
qsect alterable ; he would rather leave 
it to time — though he felt sure that 
there would not be any speedy ap- 
plication for the renewal of any of 
the prohibitions. He had calculated 
that the loss upon these commodities 
woukl be 462,000^ The total loss 
on these several duties must there- 
fore be reckoned thus : — 

Rum - - - £150,000 
London coals - 100,000 
Wool ... 350,000 
Silk - - - 462,000 



Grand total - £1,062,000 
-Multiplying this sum by three, to 
come at the loss for the years 1825, 
1826, 1827, combined, and adding 
half for the loss of the current year 
1824, that total loss woukl be 
3,717,000^. Deduct this sum from 
the total surplus of the duties as 
ihey now stood, 4,135,000/. it would 
leave a difference at the end of the 
year 1827, in favour of the revenue, 
of 418,000/. These were the re- 
ductions oontemplated. 



There was one more ciictnitBtanee 
to which he would advert, whidi re- 
spected the trade in salt It seemed 
to be a prevalent opinion that there 
could be no adequate benefit in re^ 
taining the last two shillinss of duty 
upon it It was impossible that the 
we^ht of such a duty could operate 
prejudicially even on persons m the 
meanest circumstances. There was, 
therefore, no strong and binding 
reason in the nature of the impost to 
ffive their consideration to it Still 
Uie faith of government was pledged 
to reduce it, and that was in itself 
reason enough. (Cheers.) When- 
ever the subject came on, if the 
house shoukl be of opinion as to the 
weight of it, th^ might agree upon 
retaming it and cutting off aome 
other tax more eligible lor reduc- 
tion. It could not but be highly 
gratifying to them all to oboerve 
die state of the public accounts, al- 
though in three years last past theie 
had been a reduction of no less than 
8,000,000/. and to know that they 
might reasonably look forward to the 
remission of more taxes. Whether 
those reductions which he now pro- 
posed would meet with the concur- 
rence of the house, he could not say. 
He trusted that they would be ap- 
proved, as he ventured to assure the 
house that they had been selected 
according to the best ability of him- 
self and his right honeurable col- 
leagues, as those which were most 
likely to meet with the general wishes 
of the people. It was ii^eed moat 
gratifying to observe the state of the 
country, which, with g;reat prospe- 
rity in every branch of its commerce, 
had an increasing revenue with a re^ 
duced expenditure, and a debt ac- 
tually decreasmg — to see that we 
were rising daily in wealth, in power, 
and in influence^wealth whidi h»d 
been increased by sound and conn- 
derate 



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7i 



derate legislation — power, which was 
not abused or diverted to purposes of 
■elfish ambition and aggrandisement, 
thoc^ prompt to maintain our rightl 
and vindicate our honour and in* 
ftuence, wluch was not merely the 
BDLomeDtaiy effect of blustering and 
menace, but the result of a convic- 
tion whkh the people of other na- 
tioDS had in the sinceiity of our in- 
tentions, and the integrity of our 
conducL (Loud cheeis.) The ine- 
vitable effect of believing that this 
wealth and power, of which we might 
be so justly proud, was the test of 
atead&st frieiKlship, and would not 
be used as menacing instruments <^ 
hostility or rivalry, he by no means 
wished to arrogate to himself and his 
right hon. Mends the merit of hav- 
ing brought the country to this happy 
condition. There were many gen- 
tlemen on the other side of the house 
wbo must be allowed to take their 
share in the credit of these results. 
He did not daim it for individuals, 
but for parliament (hear, hear) —that 
cahimniated and vilified parliament 
(tAeera), of which they were told, 
when the country was labouring with 
its distress, that it was utterly incapa- 
ble of bringing the country any rebef ; 
and that it was so far gone incorrup- 
tioii and error, that it was necessaiy 
to overturn it topsy-turvy before any 
eood could be expected. (Hear, 
hear.) What did they now behold ? 
They looked abroad, and the state of 
the country offered the most com- 
plete refixtetion of those calumnies, 
for such he must ever call them. 
Parliament had the gratifying view 
on all hands of smili^ plenty — ^the 
unrestricted animation of industry — 
contentment and prosperity, peace 
and order, joined hand-in-hand, is- 
anh^ from the portals of an ancient 
and constitutional monarchy, to dis- 
pense their inestimable blessings up- 



on the country, aoid to enfiven the 
hearts of a happy, united, and (let us 
never forget it) a grateful people; 
(Loud and continuea cheers.) 

Mr. Baring^ in rising to offer 
some observations on this subject, 
could not but in the first place con- 
fess, that he had never heard, and he 
believed there never had been made 
of late years, so gratifying a state- 
ment as that which the house had just 
heard from the right hon. gentleman. 
The facts upon which that statement 
was founded, had no doubt been most 
maturely considered ; and without a 
sufficient opportunity for examining 
the several particulars of which it is 
composed, it would be very presump^ 
tuous in any man to give a hasty opi- 
nion upon a topic which was, in 
every point of view, so truly impor- 
tant. He (Mr. Baring) must, how- 
ever, at the same time that he cheer- 
fully bore testimony to the satisfac- 
tory tenor of the nght hon. gentle- 
man's speech, and of the intentions 
of the government which it ex- 
pressed, avail himself of this oppor- 
tunity of stating, that several of the 
questions which the speech involved, 
and particularly that which had been 
last treated of, required the most ear- 
nest attention that could be bestowed 
upon it There were one or two 
points the prominent nature of whicl^' 
struck him very forcibly, and to wWch 
he should now proceed to call the 
attention of the committee. In the 
first place, the right honourable gen^ 
tleman's plan of finance seemed to 
him to want that certainty in the 
results which it was supposed would 
attend it, without which no plan of 
finance could be relied upon, or 
ought to be entertained. He had no 
doubt that the intention of the plan 
was to preserve the credit of the na- 
tion in the best possible manner. It 
might be that the multiplicity of its 
details, 



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dekaib, rather tban any nvant of clear- 
ness in them, had prevented him 
. fiom accurately comprehending the 
whole of its huffing ; butas mt as 
he bad been able to understand it, it 
seemed that the supposed increase 
was hardly lo be calculated upon 
irom the grounds proposed by the 
right hon. goitleman. 

In lus estimate of the ways and 
means for this and the last year, the 
right hon.eentleman had stated there 
was a surplus revenue to the amount 
of 1,710,985^ in the former, and 
h520fi76L in the latter. Pursuing 
his calculation, he had supposed that 
in the year 1825 the surplus would 
amount to 372,346^; in 1826, to 
477,346^.; andinl827,to522,346iL; 
and he concluded, therefore, that in 
the year last mentioned the surplus 
of me revenue would amount to 
4,135,099^ Upon this statement 
he called u[)on the house to make a 
present sacrifice, in the way of re- 
pealing taxes, and adopting certain 
regulations in trade, totne amount of 
1,052,000/. He (Mr. Barins) thought 
that the advants^ had oeen too 
highly calculated, and that the reduc- 
tion was too rashly made. For ex- 
ample, the right hon. gendeman had 
proposed to reduce the duty on coals 
fi(t)m 200,000/. to 100,000/. and had 
. calculated upon the increased con- 
^sumption to justify so large a reduc- 
tion. But even if it shomd turn out 
that this was correct, it was obvious 
tiiiatthe call for repeal of taxes was not 
made upon a fair estimate of the an- 
nual income, but that the addition of 
the sum to be received for the Aus- 
trian loan had been taken into the 
account His (Mr. Baring^s) objec- 
tion to the calculation, therefore, 
was, mainly, that the leduction of 
1,052,000/. was intended to be in 
perpetuity, while the increase of the 
revenue by which it was proposed to 



be met, was to depend upon circmn^ 
stances, the success of wnidi no one 
could fofresee. He thought there 
was no foundation whatever for the 
assumed surplus, and therefore that 
there was nothing to justify the re- 
duction to the amouQt which was 



ith respect to the reduction 
which the right hon. gendeman pro- 

r^ in the four per cents, it must 
remembered, tnat the measure 
would be examined out of dooia with 
the most scrupuluus accuracy. As 
it appeared to him (Mr. Banng) at 
present, he thoi:^t it was a greater 
reduction than the means of the 
"country warranted* There was, 
moreover, a very considerable mis- 
take in die calculation. Hie rie;fat 
honourable gentlemen stated, mt 
he was by law compelled to give 
six montKs* notice of his intention 
to pay off that description of stoc^ : 
he proposed, therefore, in compliance 
witii this law, to g^ve notice mat the 
75,000,000/L of four per cents, should 
be paid off in October next, unless 
within six we^ from that time the 
persons entitled to it wouU consent 
to take the amount of their respective 
stock at par in the three and a half 
per cents. The ri^ht honourable 
gendeman, in adopting this phm, 
should, however, be aware, that un- 
\e^ he previously effected a reducticm 
in' the interest of excheauer bills, 
there would be in the market a fund 
which would be held against lum by 
the persons entided to be paid off ; 
because, as soon as the notice should 
be given, all the persons holding 4 
p^ cent stock would prefer to r^r 
cei ve the market price of their stock ; 
and exchequer bills bearing an in- 
terest of 4 per cent but not being 
l¥orth more in the market than at the 
rate of 3 percent, they would invest 
their money in that kind of securit/: 



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79 



be (Mr. Baring) could not, therefoie» 
dee what advantage the nght hon« 
geatleman thought to flain hy his 
measure. If the right non. gentle- 
man had reduced^ as still he mi^ht, 
the interest of the exchequer bills» 
then he would reduce the value of 
thai fund, the competition of which 
trith his proposed scheme would be 
so mischievous to the latter* He 
(Mr. Baring) wished, however, par- 
ticularly that it should be explamed 
in the committee upon what grounds 
it was that the right honourable ^en« 
tleman made out that the annual r^* 
ducCion of 520,000Z. would enable 
him to reduce the taxation to the 
amount of 1,052,000^ 

There was one very important 
question which had been touched 
upon— he meant the introduction of 
foreign manufactures. To the prin- 
ciple of this he had no objection ; 
but it would have been much more 
salis&ctoiy, if the right honourable 
gentkman had, at the same time, 
tftated whether any communications 
had been had on this subject with 
other countries, and whether the ad-* 
vazitages which the commerce of 
such countries was to derive from 
this was to be repaid by any reci- 
procal concessions on their parts« 
He (Mr. Baring) did not say, that 
even with such reciprocity, it would 
be expedient to adopt the measure 
9t present ; it would require great 
care and attention, before it could be 
entered upon as rapidly as the ri^t 
faooourable gentleman proposed, lest 
great injury should be done to many 
valuable branches of our manufac- 
tures. In the first place, the silk- 
trade would be operated upon by 
this regulation, and he (Mr. Baring) 
should not be surprised if veiy sen^ 
ous consequences were to result from 
it. Setting aside the alteration which 
it would make in commercial specu- 



lations generally, a still neater inooa- 
venience, he apprehended, would re- 
sult to the silk-manufacturers. This 
consideration he did not say should 
prevent the house from legislating 
upon the subject if they thought fit^ 
but it might be well ui^ed as a reaK 
son why very great precautions should 
be taken before it was finally resolved 
upon. Not only wouki the taking 
otf a duty of 30 per cent, upon the 
raw material have a considentble 
effect u^n the manu&cturers, but 
the preference which was alwavB 
given to French patterns, and the 
superiority of that nation in the art 
of dying, might really do serious in- 
jury to this branch of our trade* 
while he repeated, that his object 
in rising had been merely to obtedn 
a fiiller explanation of the means by 
which the right honourable gentle-' 
man thought that the certain redwv 
dons which he had stated could be 
effected from the hazardous suqdus 
upon which he calculated, he must, 
however, say, that the statement of 
the right honourable gentleman was 
highly satis&ctory, because it would 
convince the most incredulous of the 
advantages of the system by which 
the improvement had been effected, 
and by which the public credit had 
been preserved. Even those who 
had objected to that system (he be« 
lieved there were none such now, 
and that thev had never been any 
other than the senseless populace, 
whose huzzaing at pubHc meetings 
proceeded rather from ignorance thsuk 
from a rational disapprobation of it) 
would at length see that the reduc- 
tion of the just debt of the country 
had been brought about by the only 
honest means which could ever have 
effected it, and that it never could 
have been otherwise done, but by 
shaking at the same time ^e credit 
of the nation, and by the sacrifice of 
prejudices 



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annciiples wfaicb onglit never to be 
W sight o£ The country gentle* 
meEy too» of whom, to do diem jus- 
:iioe, he had never heard one advo* 
arte the absmd projects to which he 
hid just allodedy would he gratified 
to aee that their firmness and consis- 
tency had enabled them, not only to* 
effect the reduction of the national 
burdens; but to relieve themselves 
fiK>m those oppressive circumstancefr 
which had weighed s6 heavily upon 
them. For himself, he looked upon' 
it as a subject of national pride and 
exultation, that recovering from a 
long and expensive war, we were 
enabled to euect such improvements 
in the finances of the country, with- 
out the violation of any honourable 
principle, or of those moral obliga- 
tions by which society was held to- 
gether. He did not, however, think 
that, flourishing as the financial con- 
dition of the country was, this pvos- 
perily could in any way justify the 

rsm which had been pumued 
ughout die late war, and parti* 
cularly the measures relating to die 
paper cunrency. The recovery, gra- 
tifying as it was, had been effected, 
it shcrald be remembered, at the ex- 
pence of the fortunes of thousands of 
persons, who had been utterly ruin- 
ed, and by: the dreadful deprecta^ 
tion of the agriculture, by which re- 
spectable men had been reduced to 
beggary, and to breakii^ stones upon 
die roads. In no country, perhaps^ 
before had so complete a revolution 
of property been effected by such 
means ; and it would for ever remain 
an example of the miserable conse*- 
quenoes of tampering with the cur- 
rency, and a warning against it in 
all futare emergencies. 

The.C/umo8//ar bf the Eixhemier 
explained. He thought that he nad 
aheady explained fc&y the plan by 
which he meant to eff^ the redtlo^ 



don he had proposed; but as it ap- 
peared the hon. gendeman had not 
oomprehended him endrely, he must 
have failed in that intendon. It 
would be observed, that in the cal- 
culadon he had made of the produce 
of the last year, although he had taken 
the surplus at its aerial amount, he 
had not esdmated any increase of 
revenue on account of the reduction. 
In the customs, also, he had assumed 
no addition on account of the pro- 
gressive increase which might be rea- 
sonably expected. Nor h^ he, with 
respect to the assessed taxes, calcu- 
lated upon any improvement in those 
which remained. He had made no 
such prospective calculation, nor had 
he, on the other hand, allowed for 
any increase of expenditure for the' 
ensuing four years^ trusting that the 
addition theieby to be incurred would 
be supplied by the natural decrement' 
which mi^ht be expected to occar 
in that period. If by any accident 
not now to be foreseen, that event 
should happen which would neces- 
sarily overturn all calculations — he 
meant a war, the government then 
must rely upon the public spirit of 
the country to enable them to meet 
the expenses i^ch it woukl bring 
with it. li^ however^ the tranquillity 
which at present prevailed should 
continue, die calculations which he 
had made would be found, he trusted, 
C|uite correct ; and at the end of the 
time to which they reached, the par^ 
liament would be enabled to judge 
of the operation of this improved 
system. If anv deficiency were then 
found, it would be die time to supply 
it, but he diought in die interim bie 
was entided to assume (notwithstand- 
ii^ the apprdiensions of the hon. 
gendeman) that no such deficiency 
would be found. 

Mr. Banna said, he had not at all 

miaandentood the right honourable 

gendeman. 



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He tfaoij^t tfa^ the 
ooontiy would be plac^ in a very 
danceious situatioii if a war were to 
br^ out previous to October, and 
it were then called upon to pay 
25,000,000/L Instead of keeping up 
a large floating debt as the n^t Son. 
eentleman proposed to do, it would 
be better to employ the money as a 
sinkii^ fund to purchase the 3 per 
cents, above 90/. 

Mr. Brougham concurred with his 
honourable mend, the member for 
Wareham, in feeling considerable 
disappcnntment at the project which 
hadneen that night laid before the 
committee. (Hear.) In so saying, 
let it not be for a moment siqpposed 
that he wished to treat with the slight- 
est disrepect those veiy sound and 
enlightened principles of commercial 
policy which the chancellor of the 
ezxdiequer had so clearlv and broadly 

' ^ He gave that right hon. 

entire credit for them 
r) ; but though much was to be 
aaid in &vour of some of the objects 
to which th^ had been applied, yet 
aAer sidi a statement it became im- 
DOflsiUe that a person should pled^ 
himself to scnpport any of the parti- 
cular views that it had taken, with- 
out much further* examination and 
in<|iiiiy. He had noticed many points 
upon which, as had been observed 
hy the member for Taunton (Mr. 
Baring), it was not to be supposed 
that hon. gentlemen could come to 
any decided opinion without previous 
deiiberation. He, for one, was in- 
deed pcepaied to approve generally 
of those measures of change in our 
oomniercial policy which the state- 
ment alluded to. And first, in re- 
spect to the repeal of bounties. He 
<fid not imagine diere could be two 
opinicHis upon all that the right h<m. 
gentleman had said on this subject; 
the effect of which was, that upon 
1824.] 



the herring fishery and linen trade 
there would be saved about 1 70,000i: 
A saving, thus considerable in itself, 
was rendered still more valuable, by 
the reflection, that it was recovered 
imon principles which the house on 
all sides seemed disposed to adopt as 
those which should govern our com- 
mercial transactions ; and upon the 
assurance that such great advantage 
was at the same time secured to the 
present trade, as to render the boun- 
ties unnecessary. (Hear.) 

Generally speaking, he could not 
but approve of the relief which was 
proposed to be given by the right 
honourable gentleman to the silk 
trade, or the partial repeal of the silk 
duties. But much of the benefit of 
this measure must depend on the 
time at which it m^ht be carried 
into effect -the sort of notice to be 
given to parties — ^and (he vrouldadd) 
the inclination of the right honoura- 
ble gentleman*s own mind in respect 
of the various representations that 
would be made to him by persons 
who might have laige stocks on hand 
How these circumstances might ope- 
rate, he (Mr. Brougham) could not 
predict; but he mought that this 
question would not find its way to 
the public, without exciting consi- 
derable alarms, upon its being known 
that extensive claims in the way of 
indemnities would be made by in- 
dividuals upon the government. And 
he did contend, that parliament ought 
to hold a very tight hand, indeed, 
over any issues of public money that 
it might be proposed to make for 
such indemnities. It must be con- 
fessed that this inconvenience existed 
a good deal in the nature of things. 
It was impossible, almost, ever to 
effect any great alterations— improve- 
ments, though they might be — in lo- 
cal and commercial proper^, with- 
out much present injury. (Uear.) It 
F was 



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Tras impos^ble for them to trace back 
their steps firom the exercise of wrong 
principles to right principles, witliout 
working injury or mischief to some 
extent. It had been well said, that 
one of the miseries of a bad system 
of government or commerce was, 
that they could not find their way 
back through former errors, without, 
during some intervals, doing still 
greater injury than would have been 
worked in the same space of time 
had the old system continued. But 
if views of commercial improvement, 
founded upon such principles as the 
right honourable gentleman had been 
stating, should be carried into effect, 
consistendy with the good of the 
whole nation — (that deposit which 
was intrusted to the care of parlia- 
ment), — it would be the duty of the 
legislature stoutly and manfully to 
support the government in effecting 
^m. (Hear!) Reserving his opinion, 
however, of the propos^ measure in 
their details, he wished to be under- 
stood as at present expressing his 
^probation of their principles only* 
His great objection to the project 
which had been opened to the house 
was — not as to the repeal of the 
fishery and linen bounties, for of 
that he must approve — not as to that 
repeal of duties which was to be ef- 
fected on silk by the taking off the 
duty on the raw material, and there- 
by giving to our manufecturer the 
full benefit of the repeal — not as to 
the relief of the coal duty, which was 
called for by so large a proportion of 
the people, and especially by those 
of this metropohs and the adjoining 
coimties — not as to the repeal of the 
duty on wool, accompanied by a pro- 
hibition to export the raw material— 
but his objection, at present, was to 
one or two points, on which he would 
offer a few observations to the house. 
He understood, then, that en the items 



specified the right honourd^le ge»tte« 
man reckoned that there wodd be a 
growing surplus for the present yeat 
of about 500,000/. and about double 
that amount was to be calculated on 
some other branches of the revenue. 
Now this being the statement of die 
surplus which was to be available to 
the right hon. gentleman, what were 
the effects that were to follow up6h 
the execution of his plan ? The only 
advantage that he (Mr. Broi^ham) 
could understand as arising from it 
was, that coals and silk would be 
cheaper ; wool would not be much 
affected. Now the lightening the 
duty on coals was a very good mea- 
sure, and would be extensively fek 
by the poor. But the alteration of 
the duties on silk afforded no such 
general relief. TTien, as to rum ; 
me proposed reduction of du^ was 
not even suggested to be for the re- 
lief of the consumer, but only of the 
producer; and as to any measure 
which would have a tendeki^ to 
render ardent spints cheaper, he 
confessed that m was one of thosie 
who would rather support that whi«^ 
should make them dearer, for tfic 
sake of public morak. But his anx- 
iety for the West hidm interest was 
of this kind-^that raising the pii e e 
of a pernicious article would dimi- 
nish me consumption (for he though 
the consumption could not be dimi- 
nished) ; but it was, lest the raising 
its price should only render the ar- 
ticle so scarce as to create a ccxitm- 
band trade, and by such means sdU 
more effectually injure the morsjs of 
the people. With respect to cools— 
the only other subject on whidi aH 
persona must be pleased on finding 
there was to be an alteration of dtitf 
— it was to be remembered that it 
was a benefit that wouRL not extend 
to the poor generally, but partially 
only ; to the poor of this aty» and 



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<rf tbk and ac«ie other cx>imtiei; it 
bmg dear that the poor of London 
W9re persons^ for the most pait, bet- 
ter al^ to pay for this artude than 
the poor elsewhere. He fek th^ire* 
fore, that however sound the princi- 
ples were upon which scMne o^ these 
(hties were about to be reformed, the 
application of the surplus revenue 
tbat had been spok^i of was not such 
98 to justify the public in hoping for 
any present relief irom the pressure 
of taxes! or to give them any confix 
dexik expectaftio&> that in the coune 
of a few yean any other fund would 
be realized that would furnish the 
means of future and inoreaaed re* 
li^ There was yet one mode of 
ohfaining for the peojple relief fiv^n 
the taxea ftat most heavily pressed 
upon tibiem» which was not noticed 
m the statement of the. right hon. 
gttitleman, but might be most ad- 
vantageously resorted to-— he meanly 
the appvopnation of some part of the 
poking fund. (Hear.) Now a sink^ 
ing fandy especially with compound 
uMereit (a laugh), he took to be one 
of tbose^rors that were observed to 
be daily upon die wane. A very 
fisw yean, perhaps months, would 
not pass away before a return to the 
true policy would sweep away this 
asKKnaly ; and his majesly's minis* 
tecs WQ«dd ^rant---«(zrant he would 
aot say, for it wouldbe their duty to 
extend) — not to the pra^ere of the 
people (for it would he uieir right), 
the foil benefit of those just and 
flouod principles, and 1^ eompse* 
benstveDoU^, the vahie and neces- 
ailyofwiiich had been preached so 
longtotbeaft from that side of the 
iKRtta, and had been pressed upon 
tben fipom out of docm, day smer 
dey, -by the diacussiona of better edo* 
cated, and better informed, and more 
en%bteiicd pnaona ton themselves. 
(A Iflug^ aad cries of «^ hear*") 



Another topic on wfak^ he had to 
remark was^ the manner in whidi 
part of that sum of two millions and 
a half, that were to be repaid us bya 
foreign power was proposed to be ap- 
plied. He could not nelp advertinff 
to what the r^ht hon. gentTeman had 
said with respect to me oonduct of 
the emperor of that country. He 
had no very accurate recollection of 
the words; but he did not remember 
to have ever heard any thing mudi 
more severe than what had fallen 
from the riglu hon. ^tleman at the 
dose of his panegyric — a panegvrie 
to which he was little prepare to 
heai^ sueh a pennation. The rig^t 
hon.gentleman'sobservationamount^ 
ed to this :— so highly honouiaUe 
was this illustrious sovereign — so re^ 
nmkably correct in his peeuniaiy 
dealmgs — so angularly distmguished 
among his brother sovereigna for h» 
e3cact sense of honour — that the ri^ 
hon. gentleman could do no less tmm 
litter BR enthusiastic panegyric for 
whatheealledaperfect *' God-send;" 
seeing that this emperor had common 
honesty enough to pay us 2«. 6£{. in 
tibe pound upon the money he had 
borrowed of us so loi^ ago. From 
his (Mr. Brougham's) experience of 
common honesty (but he would not 
eo quite so for as the risht hon. gent 
had done in taking liberties with 
crowned heads), he was induced to 
thank Qod for the bounty which we 
had received. If he might eo fur^ 
ther, he would humb^hc^ mat the 
effect of the panegyric that had been 
Uiat nicht pionbunced inijg;ht be to 
obtain from the same individual — he 
would not say another 2& 6d!. in the 
pomid, for mat would be too much 
to hope for-— but another 6d. in the 
pound. Sixpence in the pound 
seemed, to be suie, a vecy little sma 
lotalkabout; but hpon the latge debt 
(toe ta a multitode of despairing ate* 

diton^ 



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ditoTs, it would be a veiy consider- 
able amount As the best sort of 
gratitude, in the mean time, that he 
could evince for the bounty of provi- 
dence, he would no more vote that 
the 500,000^. should be applied to 
the building of churches, than he 
would vote away to the same object 
the product of the sixpence in the 
pound if we had it In saying this, 
ne meant not the slightest disparage- 
ment to the established churcn of the 
country; nor did he mean to sa^ 
that parliament would do its duty if 
it neglerted to provide for the coun- 
try's religious instruction. Let it be 
remembered, however, that parlia- 
ment had already granted 1,000,000/. 
for building chuioies, and granted it 
with singular unanimity. What was 
still more important to the present 
consideration than the absence of op- 
position to that grant was, the met 
that the money was taken from the 
pocketB of the people at a time when 
ttiey were sufiferii^ the greatest pres- 
sure of distress, m the year 1817. 
{Several members, " No, no.") He 
must be allowed to say he believed it 
was in 1817 that 1,000,000/. of mo- 
ney, for the purpose in question, and 
without a murmur, was paid by the 
patient people of this <x>untzy. There 
was not a murmur from any of the 
classes from whom the money was 
raised — not even from the dissenters, 
who, of necessity, were excluded 
from taldng any direct benefit in the 
olgect of the grant It would be a 
most ungracious return for the libe- 
rality of the dissenteis and sectaries 
of aU denominations, tosay, thatthis 
« God-send,'* as the risht hon. een- 
tleman called it, shomd be ap^ied 
lo the building of more churches, 
from which the whole of their re- 
spectable, industrious, religious, and 
enl^tened classes shoukl be ex- 
clui&A ; for if they were to be built 



upon the same principle as the odier 
churches had lately beai, these sects 
would virtually be shut out Oil 
these grounds he should oppose this 
vote, and heartily he was rejoiced to 
find that he should not stand alone. 
He would certainly press his opposi- 
tion. He trusted the project would 
be equally opposed out of doors ; and 
diat diey who had acquired equally 
with churchmen a right so to do, by 
not opposing the £^ vote, would 
bring tneir complaints before a par- 
liament willing to redress them, as 
bearing in itB mind the liberal way 
in which the same parties had acted 
on a former occasion. 

Then, as to the disposition of tfiis 
half million, if it should foe otlier- 
wise applied, as it seemed at present 
quite m the way of ministers, lie 
would suggest that there could be no 
better means of getting rid of the 
money than die building of schools. 
With die 1,000,000/. abready sub- 
scribed, but few churches had been 
built: to be sure, thsy were rather 
magni^cent structures, and, indeed, 
the thing seemea to have been some- 
what overdone altogether. But he 
was very sure, that on the most libe- 
ral scale, 2,500 schools for the edu- 
cation of youth might be built with 
the 500,000^ In that event, there 
would not be a single perish in this 
country, which, if Sie sum vrere ju- 
diciously disposed of, would not have 
its school. The money mi^t be 
vested in commissioners ; not to be 
paid, or to be paid only in the event 
of the funds, aner die erection of tihe 
schools, proving adequate to fiimiah 
the necesary compensation. Upon 
this proposition, it was veiy likelv 
that he snould be found in a smaU 
minority indeed, in that house ; but 
out of it he was sure of a lavge ma- 
jori^, who would think that naif ft 
milhpn of money, instead of foeinff 

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8S 



addedto thel»000,OOO^already grant- 
ed for building new churches, would 
be much more useful^ employed in 
building schools. Witli his hon. 
friend (Mr. Calcrafl) he perfecdy 
concurred — ^that the salt tax must, 
looking to the solemn pledge that 
parliament had given, suffer a na- 
tural death at its appointed term. It 
would not be the least recommenda;- 
tdon attaching to the repeal of that 
tax, that the collection of so consi- 
derable a branch of the revenue would 
be lopped off; and therefore the 
revenue would be considerably be- 
nefited. He had no doubt that with 
the million and a half on which the 
right hon. gentleman had calculated, 
and one or two millions taken 
firom the sinking fund, the reduction 
of taxation might yet be carried to 
a very considerable extent, indeed, 
without interfering with the funds 
necessary for effecting the proposed 
commercial reforms. They niight 
repeal not only the assessed taxes, 
but also those duties which were to 
be called not merely a tax, but a 
ciying injustice, and an iniquitous 
burden on the most laborious and 
oppressed class of the community — 
namely, the law^uties, which, to 
the du^race of this age and nation, 
bad been allowed to remain in their 
present state, at a time when all the 
great branches of commerce and re- 
Tenue were established on better and 
more enlightened principles. These 
taxes might be recon^dered ; and the 
worst of the assessed taxes— that on 
windows — might be remitted. The 
honourable and learned gentleman 
then alluded to the case of the tea- 
duties in 1784, and of the coffee- 
duties about eleven years ago, as re- 
markable instances of the consump- 
tion of an article increasing so much 
under a reduced duty as to yield an 
incieaaed revenue. Upon the same 



Srinicples he felt no manner of 
oubt that ministers would find they 
could, (as in the duty of wine, the 
consmnption of which had decreased 
with the increase of duty,) by lower- 
ing duties, raise the revenue, whila 
they reheved the consumer, and then 
become enabled to remit taxes, and 
lighten those burdens which now 
pressed most heavily on the people. 

Mr, Hume was glad to say, that 
he felt very much refieved and pleased 
at the speech of the right hon. gen- 
tleman, which was a statement that 
he felt confident offered only an ear- 
nest of what he felt himself bound 
and intended yet to do. The right 
hon. gentleman honesdy had ex- 
pressed liis surprise that some errors 
had been allowed by government to 
exist 80 long ; and he (Mr. Hume) 
had hoped he would go on pursuing 
a plan which he was sure would 
answer the right hon. gentleman's 
purposes beyond his most sanguine 
expectations. But the right hon. 

Smdeman had stopped half wayl 
e had not gone far enough on ms 
own road. (Hear.) Could it be a 
matter of congratulation to the public 
to know that our large mihtaiy esta- 
blishment was to continue without 
alteration for four years more ? (Hear, 
hear.) Or that in that interval only 
1,000,000^, or thereabouts, -was to 
be the aggregate of actual savins ? 
Why had not the right hon. gentle- 
man given some relief to our West- 
India islands ? Why not protect so 
important a branch of our trade? 
He might have done so without any 
loss to the revenue. Thus one of 
the reductions proposed might have 
been seven shiUiiugs duty per cwt 
on sugar; by wmch great relief 
would have been given to the colo- 
nist, and the consumption would 
have increased in a more than eq|ual 
ratio. The same a;>rt of reduction 

of 



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of duly on spirits per gdUm, ex- 
ported and impoited, woidd bave 
tiM additional advantage <^ soon put* 
tingdown smuggling. 

The hon. gentleman (hen pro** 
eeededtoobeemnponthe inequaUty 
of the beer du^. The rich man, or 
the man of competent means, paid 
only twenty-fii^ slnllin^ per barrel, 
ndnle Uie poor man paid thiity-five 
rittHings. He then msisted on the 
advantage of lowering the duties at 
the prnent time. He contended 
that the whole of the assessed taxes 
oc^ to be taken off, as we had the 
means by ^ sur^us of the sinking 
fimd The manaons of our men <» 
fbitune would not then be deserted; 
and they woukl no longer have the 
inducement to expatriate themselves 
wMch at present existed. This not 
only might be effected from the sink- 
ix^ ftmd, but that most iniouitous of 
sdf taxes, the expenses of law pro- 
ceeding which, as the hon. member 
for Midhurst justly observed, was 
one of the first whidi ot^ to be 
repealed, as it bore with ti^ greatest 
severity upon the poor. If the whole 
of the taxes which he had mentioned 
were reduced, what a difference 
would it effect upon the country, and 
the house would not do its duty to 
the public if it did not press for the 
teductioD of eveiy one of than, in- 
stead of buying up stock at 20 per 
cent loss. 

With respect to the Austrian knn, 
we had paid twenty-two millions, 
principal and interest, under all the 
circumstances of difficulty in which 
we had been involved; and now 
two millions and a half only was to 
be repmd, which, instead of 
to lelieve tiie people, it was proj 
to add to the unneoessaiy number of 
churches at an expense of half a 
million. He was sure the chanceUor 
of the exchequer could not look the 




house in the foce and say,, that dus 
was a sum proper to be so applied. 
It was contrary to his own declared 
principles, for this was an expencfi- 
ture to benefit one particular class at 
the expense of the whole. He trusted 
diat it would me€t with a decided 
opposition, not only in that house^ 
but out of it. If the house sanc- 
tioned this expenditure, he should 
then say that it had not been calum- 
niated, but diat it studied partial 
interests, and not the good of the 
whole community. 

Resolutions, founded on the details 
contained in the chancellor of the 
exchequer's speech, for reducing the 
interest on tne 4 per cents., were 
then read and agreed to. 
. Feb. 20.-^The house having re- 
solved itself into a committee of 

Lord PabnenUm rose to bring 
forward the army estimates for the 
year. The printed estimates, as diey * 
appeared before the house, contained 
a proposed increase in our military 
force of six new regiments, xxpon 
tiie existine establisranent, besides 
200 men added to each of the three 
veteran battalions — forming an in- 
creased force of 4,560 troojps, and 
an increased chaige of 158,()00^; 
but nnce those estimates had been 
printed, certain facts had come to 
liis (the noble lord*s] knowledge, 
which enabled him to deduct 55,000Z. 
from the money vote, and so limit 
the increased expense to 103,464£. 
The addition contemplated to our 
land forces would be accounted for 
in a veiy few wonk. It did not 
arise out of say apprehension that 
the peace of Elurope would be dis- 
turbed, or any alann for the conti- 
nued tranquillity (internally) of 
Ei^gland ; but it arose out of a view 
of the present state of our West- 
India colonies; and the condition of 

those 



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tiiQ0e odonieB he thought too im- 
portant to be discussed as a collateral 
question, Eveiy attentioQ had been 
paid to economy in the anangement 
of the proposed increase. The offi- 
cefs of die abc new legimoals were 
to be all taken from kJf-pay; nor 
Here these to be any promotions 
fiom regiments already existing, al- 
thowh goveniment had made that 
TEgulation with much unwillingness. 
Our regular land force, then, he 
would consider as to be increased by 
an addition of 3,800 men. The 
increase oi chaige, in the first in- 
stance, would stand at 172,000/.; 
against which was to be set a saving 
(by taking officers from half^pay] of 
18,000^ Of this expense, about 
139,000/. or 140,000/. was the cost 
of the new regiments ; and the rest 
was &fr legimentB wluch had last 
year been charged upon the East- 
India company, but which, having 
ainoe arrived in England, came 
vpcm the ^emment establishment 
Upon the Hem Cff staff (exclusive of 
liiidia) an increase would appear of 
5,000/L This arose from uie «p- 
pointmei^ of an additional genml 
officer in Ireland; and from certain 
expenses being now included in the 
estimate for " staff,*' whieh h^ for- 
meriybeen carried to oiAker accounts. 
In the public departments there was 
^ diminuti<Mi of SfiQOL In the me- 
ificines, a diminution of 584/. In 
the volunteer corps, a trifling dimi- 
nution. 

Tbe third dasB of estimates, taken 
upon the printed paper, would be 
finmd to ^ord a diminution of 
29,000/L to which he meant to add a 
fifftber abatement of 55,000/., mak- 
ing npon the whole an abatement of 
84,000/L On the royal military col- 
Im cbaige, there was a diminution 
of 165/. On the general officers' 
ps^, adiminutioiiof 13,G00/i; and 



he meant fiuther to abate about 
5^000/. upon this item, with a view 
to casual reductions which might be 
expected to take place. The gani- 
sons at home and abroad were nearly 
the same sfi in the last year — a small 
diminution of 190/. A diminution 
of 1,800/. would be found against 
the full pay of retired officers; but 
since the estimate had been printed, 
he had found he could lessen that 
chaige 10,000/. more. The half- 
pay and military allowances, an 
abatement of 17,000/. in the esti- 
mate ; to which he should add an 
abatement of 40,000/. ; making 
57,000/. altogether. On the fbrekn 
half-pay, a diminution oi 2,0001 
In pensioners of Chelsea and Kil- 
mainham ho^itals, nearly the same 
as last year. Outrpensioners, a di- 
minution of 5000^, which seemed 
little; but expense had been pro- 
duced by the arrival of some r^- 
ments from India. In the militaiy 
asylum there was an abatement of 
2,200/. On the widows' pensions, 
an increase of 3,600/. : the house 
would be aware that widows of half- 
pay officers were entitled to pensions 
as well as the widows of those on full 
pay. On the compassionate list^ 
from fresh cases, an increase of 
6,500/i Superannuation allowances, 
an increase of 3,683/.» partly occa- 
sioned by the transfer of charges to 
this item from other accounts; The 
exchequer fees, which was the last 
article in the third class of estimates, 
remained at the same sum, within a 
trifle, as last year ; and, on the vete- 
ran battalions in Ireland (which 
formed ^e fourth dass], there was 
an increase of 19,000/. The state 
of ^ account, therefore, taken alto- 
gether, would shprdy come to this— 
increased numhor c^ men, 4,560; 
increased charge (ingress) 158,000^ 
From thi9 amount* hpweyei^ there 



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wastobetdeducted— firBt,the 55,000/L 
which he had mentioned, reducing 
the sum to 103,000/. ; and next, a 
Bum (in the way of balance) to be 
set off, of 60,000/., which was paid 
by the East-India company for the 
ralf-pay and pensions of troops em- 
ployed in their territories, but which 
Deing (under an act of parliament) 
paid into the exchequer, went to the 
account of the ways and means. 
This sum of 60,000/., to which the 
army estimate was entitled, r&duced 
the year's increase (with 4,500 
men additional) firom 103,000/. to 
43,000/. ; and he should conclude, 
therefore, by moving, as his first re- 
isolution before the house, *^ that a 
force of not exceeding 73,341 regu^ 
lar troops, and 3,354 men in veteran 
battalions in Ireland, ^uld be 
granted, exclusive of forces in India, 
for the service of the succeeding 
year." 

Mr. Hume Mras not of opinion 
that the noble lord's exposition had 
satisfactorily accounted, or laid a 
foundation, for the increase he me- 
ditated. He had heard nothing from 
the noble lord to induce him, as re- 
garded his own vote, to support a 
standing army of 73,000 men. It 
had only been peculiar circumstances 
which nad led the house to sanction 
the continuance of our existing 
establishment last vear ; and he had 
looked with confidence to a reduc- 
tion of 5,000 men, or 6,000, rather 
than an increase, in the present 
year. An addition to the navy had 
already this session been granted; 
and the proposal of the noble lord, 
if the house would listen to it, gave 
us no fewer than 233,000 men in 
arms. Now, to what purpose— for 
what end — ^was this immense esta^ 
blishment, in time of peace, to be 
'maintained ? On the continent, the 
king*s speech assured us, there was 



every appearance of continued 
peace. Imand? We had troops 
enough in Ireland already, and too 
many, for they did misduef. But 
it was said that they wanted men ia 
the West Indies. How many ? say, 
for argument's sake, 3,000 or 4,000. 
And wdB our existing establishment 
so low, that we could not affoid 
such a force without ai^enting it ? 
But he was out of patience to hear 
always the old remedy— sending out 
troops to the West India islands! 
Ministers ought to have spoken out 
before this period of the session, and 
to have said what eventually was ta 
be done as to those islands. Minis- 
ters ought to speak out, he repeated, 
before they alienated the minds of 
the colonists. They ought to say at 
once, ^* We mean to liberate the 
slaves," or ** We do not mean to 
liberate them ;*' and not ^ve oppor- 
tunities to designing individual, as 
he h^tid that such existed, to pot 
the properties, and even the lives, of 
the white inhabitants in jeopaidy. 
The honourable member then com- 
plained of the imperfect state of the 
estimate laid before the house. Hon. 
members might as weU have no esti- 
mate before them at all, as one in 
which the noble lord was to make 
such alterations. The hon. eentle- 
man concluded by movii^ tne fol- 
lovnng resolution :— 

<< Thai as his miyesty was gra- 
ciouisly pleased in his speech from 
the throne, to inform the house that» 
* at no former period has there pre- 
vailed throughout all classes of the 
community m this island, a more 
cheerful spirit of order, or a more 
just sense of the advantages wfaich 
under the blessings of Providence 
they enjoy. 

*^ In Ireland, which has been for 
some time past the subject of his 
miyesty's particular solicitude, there 



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are many indicatiopa of aaaendment^ 
and his majesty rdies upon your 
oontinned endeavouis to secure, the 
Tvelfaie and happiness of that part of 
the united kingdom* 

«« Hb nuyesty has commanded us, 
further, to infonn you, that he has 
eveiy reason to believe that the pro- 
gress of our internal prosperity and 
improvement will not be disturbed 
by any intenuption of tranquillity 
abroad. 

** His majesty continues to receive 
from the powers, his allies, and ge- 
nerally from all princes and states, 
jBssuances of their eam^ desire to 
maintain and cultivate the relations 
of friendship with his majesty.* 

** This committee cannot, there- 
£oTe ^ree to any increase of the 
number of the army since last year ; 
but are of opinion that a standing 
army of 63,000 r^ulais, exclusive 
of 19,000 of artilleiy, veterans, and 
marines, now embodied, and a 
force of militia and volunteers 

on any emergen^ to be emi 

,are sufficient, under all the circum- 
stances of the countiy, to be kept up." 
Mr.Brogdenssaid^ the usual course 
was to move either a reduction of 
the number of men, or the amount 
of the expense. 

Mr. Inane wished the words of 
his resolution to be retained; he 
would therefore propose it as an 
amendment on the original resolu- 
tion* The question was accordingly 
so pot 

Mr. Gordon said, the noble lord 
(Bdmerston) had given as the prin- 
cipa] reason for an increased K>rce, 
tbe state of the colonies; and though 
he (BIr. Gordon) was not desirous to 
be numbered in that unhappy class 
of persons called West Inma pro- 
pnetors, whom it was the custom, at 
present, for every bocfy to abuse, yet 
he tnd some Westlndia property, 




lie was asbtioustoexpnotf hbopimoQ 
on the subject. & appeared that 
2»500 men h^ already been, sent 
to the West Indies, in antidpation of 
the vote of this evening, thov^h the 
noble lord had, with great prudence, 
abstained from the discussion of the 
delicate topics connected with that 
subject; and he (Mr. Gordon) heait- 
ily wished the honourable member 
ifx Aberdeen had followed that eft- 
ample; but it appeared to be his 
wish to introduce a debate on West 
India interests^ which every other 
person deemed desirable to be avoid- 
ed. The honourable meqiber wished 
his majesty^s ministers to speak out 
on the subject ; whilst he (Mr. Goi^ 
don), on the oontraiyt would wish 
them not to speak at all, but remain 
quiet, when he trusted that all would 
end in peace and tranquillity. He 
vnshed the house to be convinced , 
that it was not alone on the ground 
of the West India colonies that the 
increase of force was necessary, for 
last year, from the state of the conti- 
nent of Europe, every one agreed k 
the necessity of a large force ; and 
he could not see any thin^, either 
looking to Greece or Spam, from 
which it could be argued that there 
was not now as great a chance of th]$ 
countiy being involved in war as 
there was at that time. 

General Gascoyjie said, that when 
he considered the addition of colonial 
territory acquired by this country 
since Uie peace, he was more than 
ever convinced that the army had 
been too much reduced. When he 
mentioned, that there were some re- 
giments which had remained abroad 
eighteen, twenty, and twen^-four 
years, without being relieved, the 
house would be convinced of the 
necessity of some course being 
adopted for the attainment of that 
object. The honourable member 

here 



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lisie nsd, iJNMi A iQlivii^ dM Qinnber 
iif jean wi|»k several T<egimeiits had 
heia serving in the East Lsdies; aod 
aikedy if it ccMild be borne that these 
aoerttoriofiB toea shotild be banished 
from their native GOuntiy fer a longer 
Mriod of time than that which nvas 
inflioted as a ponis^ment on felons ? 
•ft yna not, then, for the West Indies 
idone that an increase of force was 
necessary, but on accoant of our 
«ther extcdsm ^colonies, in justice to 
^i^hy as well as to the soldiers to 
whom we were so much indebted, it 
was proper that the force ^ould be 
^qpmented. The hon. gentleman 
•^•Home) said, that if Ireland were 
tranquillized, there would be no ne- 
cessity for the increase; but had 
there been any mode suggested for 
attaining &at desirable ^, or was 
it likely soon to occur, and were the 
exigencies of the West Indies to wait 
till Ireland could be settled? As to 
the militia and yeomanry, the hon. 
meaAix should recollect, that ^e 
services of that description of foroe 
was not usually callea for, without 
there was an actual danger of inva* 
«on« On the whole, he considered 
the increase was necessary; and he 
vgoiced that his majesty^s ministers 
bad come to the same conclusion. 

il^. 7Fbci?AotMe hoped, that when- 
ever the subject of the West Indies 
came before the house it would be 
temperately dnscissed. On the sub- 
ject of the foroe serving in the West 
l»fies, there was in one regiment 
stationed at Barbadoes a return of 
dea^ of 20 officers and 500 men. 
Tliis regiment was sent out, not as a 
relief, but as a reinforcement, and 
they were forced out by the cry for a 
reduction at home at an unhealthy 
period; and to that circumstance 
alone was the great mortality to be 
attributed. He would ask, therefore, 
tf these were not orcumstances wor- 



thy tiieoonffldecatKm of the honse ? 
The aoc^Iacy of this statement hi 
tould vouch for ; as he had received 
die commimication from a gallaat 
officer, some time since a member 
ci that house (Sir Herbert Taylor). 
The honourable member for Aber- 
deen spoke of the gentlemen who sat 
on his (Mr. Wodehouse's) side of Oie 
house, as if they never thota^ for 
themselves; but, according to his 
expression, ** Follow my leader" 
was the order of the day. fie (Mr. 
Wodehouse) did certainly, in com- 
mon widi others, support his msies- 
tf'^s government s^inst die reauc- 
tion which took place some time 
since ; and he sdll retained the opi<» 
nion which he then entertained, that 
the reductions in the naval and miU* 
tary establishments had been earned 
too fo. He knew that a great deal 
of constitutional reasoning miojht 
always be brought forwara on die 
subject of a standing army, but the 
house woukl not be led Away b^ ft 
from judging of the neoesnty anstm^ 
hem chfflige of circumstances and 
the variations of society. If the hon* 
m^nber for Aberdeen woidd tread 
that path, let hmi place himself un» 
der proper guidance. A noble baron 
in another place did not consid»' the 
military force of the country as any 
ground of danger; and in fottowing* 
his opinion, the honourable member 
for Aberdeen need not foar the con* 
stitution or liberty of the countiy 
would be overwhelmed. 

Mr, Hobhouse said he felt it ne- 
cessary to apologize for Offering him- 
self to the house on the present oc- 
casion, as he was afraid his senti-> 
ments were so extraordinary, that 
diey were not only unlikely to find 
much sympathy in that house, but» 
he was sorry to sav, even in die 
country at large. (A lac^h.) But 
he dK]%ht it the duty of members of 

thn 



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PARUAMENTARY CBBAXBS. 



91 



of popular feeling, or an excess of i^ 
to leaa the public mind; and it be^ 
came eveiy public man to tell the 
peo^e what was the difference be* 
tween himself and his constitnenta* 
He pdiaps should not hate spoken on 
this occasion, were it not that itmigfat 
appear thefe was some difference be- 
tween his present sentimentSi and 
those escpressed b^ him last seadon. 
He had hektre said, and he ooold 
not too often repeat it, that our posi- 
tion was not such as became thiff 
mighty nation : we might have giT- 
en die law to all Europe, instead of 
tracing to others. He confessed 
himself an advocate lor war, if die 
i^giession on Spain ooukl not have 
been pre^/teted wi^ut it; but as 
we haa net had the honour of stand- 
ii^ in that attitude, we ought not 
now to be called upon to pay for an 
army which was k^ up, not to ter- 
rify or annoy tyrants abroad, bbt to 
keep down toe people at home. He 
(Mr. Bobhouse) reading history, ais 
he thought evm En^shman used 
to read it, ^und, from the experi- 
ence of all ages, that standing armies 
had always been employed for the 
purposes of tyrants. How chained 
must be the sentiments, when £n- 
g&famen can come to die conclusion 
Sat augmentations to the standing 
army are mere matten of course, 
and the only discussion artnng out ck 
it are cpiestions of how the troops are 
lo be employed, whilst the great con- 
stitutioQal question that in time of 
peace we are to maintain a mat 
standing army, is passed by widiout 
observation. The noble lord (F^- 
merston) now came to ask for an in- 
crease of 4,000 men, as if that were 
a mere trifle ; but did he remember 
that period when the greatest change 
took place in the politics of Eitiope, 
and yet only hair that nmriber was 
added to our force ? In 1792 and 



irSSi te noble kid waa.awMe of 
Ae great change whidilook piace ia 
tibe pronpectsof die dien cabinet ; and 
tiboi^ m 1791, Bfr* Htt had ahnost 
guaranteed the continuance of peaoe^ 
yet it was then thought necessary to 
mcrease our military esiabltshnKn^ 
and 2,000 men was all the additaoai 
vet the noble lord, at this time, wfaea 
by the king's speech we wereilold 
there never was a liiiie wben there 
was so little ai^Muhenskm for the 
cominuanee of peace, and the ham 
secretary for ntmgKi adain had 
stated ^ for aU that he saw dwre 
was no dai^ger to be apprehended 
from foreign aggression'-^yet atdiia 
time the noble fold cemes forward 
and demands an increase of 4,000 
men, because there are disturbaniBBi 
ill the colonies. For Ei^land and 
behynd we had a. force of 43,000 
men; and if it were neoessarr 10 
send additional troops to the West 
Indies, it seemed to him that they 
eouM be spared from that nuB^ser, 
In 1818, thouah we had 26^000 
men on the estal&hment, yet 1 8,000 
only were actually in seiviee ; and 
then we had the manufoeturing sBs- 
trids in such a state that it could 
hardW'be said that a civil war would 
not break out within 12 months; 



and yet 18,000 meat wene thought 
sofficient for the pvstection of the 
country ; and now, when, iinim his 
Majesty's speech, there never was ao 
litde danger of peace beii^^ dirtnhu 
ed, 20,000 are thought neeenaiy. 
The standing army in the reign of 
Charles IL was proposed toaaaonnt 
to 6,000 men, and yet the pension- 
ed pariiament of that aibitnxy men 
narch-^that psriiament whose siib- 
servienc^ hadbianded it with infomy 
to all niture timcs-^was not base 
enough to permit the existence of 
such a force. From the first time 
that he had opened his mouth in 
that home, he had always eaqsressai 

his 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



log opisiony that it was necessaiy to 
keep a jealous and vigilant guard 
i^amst the attempts which were con- 
s^ntly inaking to increase the istand- 
ing military force of the countiy ; 
and to the latest hour of his life he 
should continue to express the same 
opinion. It must be obvious to 
eveiy man who woqld take the trouble 
to examine it, that noliiing could be 
more dangerous than the success of 
such attempts ; the history of eveir 
country in which they had been ef- 
fected, proved that Ibeir natural ten- 
dency was the subversion of consti- 
tutions ; and he had . no doubt, that 
if it was not checked, it would also 
overturn the constitution of England. 
The noble lord had not given the 
house any sufficient reason lor the 
augmentation of the forces which he 
had proposed. It was not pretended 
to be necessary for the augmentation 
of tranquillity. Why, tihen, were 
20,000 men wanted? Why was a 
greater force necessaiy at this period 
of profound repose tmn the usurper 
Cromwell had kept up for the pur- 
pose of maintaining by the sword that 
rule which he had obtained by the 
sword ? He did not mean to deny 
that some force was always necessary 
firom which the reinforcements m- 
ouired for the service of the colonies 
Kiould be drawn ; but it did not fol- 
low that such force might not be li- 
mited. If in the year 1818, 18,000 
menwere found sufficient, why was it 
proposed now to increase them? 
Looldng as he did with anxiety and 
jealousy at all attempts like this, he 
could not help regrettmg that he had 
not the valuable assistance of some 
of his own friends, as well as of other 
honourable members, who usually 
expressed themselves unfavorably to 
such assentations as that which he 
was now opposing. The hon. mem- 
ber for Norfolk (Mr. Wodehouse), 
who was one of that class of persons 



oommonly most zealous to aid such 
oppositions, — he meant the country 
gentlemen — ^and who, if they were 
not induced by a wiser and more ex- 
tensive view of the dangers with 
which a standing military force was 
firaugfat, had in general at least a 
strong instinct which prompted them 
to the protection of their own inter- 
ests fiom the mischievous conse- 
quence of such a force — even that 
hon. member was foimd to advo- 
cate the proposed addition to the 
standing army. It was alleged that 
the state of Ireland rendered a large 
military force always necessary : he 
called upon the house to consider 
that it behoved them to show by 
their vote of this night how mucn 
they thought it .necessary that a 
chainge should be made in the sys- 
tem which had been acted upon to- 
wards that unfortunate country. He 
wished most heartily that the go- 
vernment, instead of always attempt- 
ing to put down the prevailing cus- 
oontents there by force, would at- 
tempt to remove die causes of those 
discontents. He wished that Ireland 
should no k>nger be governed like a 
conquered country, nor the En^ish 
inhabitants of it taught to consider 
themselves as colonists, who could 
only hold possession of it by means 
of an extensive Action, and by the 
maintenance of an armed force. It 
was. proposed to send a force of 
30,000 men to Ireland : this, toge- 
ther with the yeomanry, and the 
police there, to say nothing of the 
militia, would make an armed pow- 
er of 50,000, which could always 
be made effective, and by which 
simple engine of state we thous^ht 
to justify ail the wrongs with which 
we had so long afflicted that un- 
happy country. Instead of pur- 
sun^ this intention, he should 
recommend such a change of tl^ 
means by which that countiy 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



»a 



-ynm governed, as would enable us 
to employ a diminution of force. 
The principles which had hitherto 
been acted upon had all failed, but 
he ^was convinced that a different fate 
would attend different principles. 
If the government insteaa of foTce» 
-would tiy the efificacy of persuasion 
— instead of the system of restriction, 
would adopt that of a liberal and im- 
partial dispensation of public fiivoms^ 
he had a perfect conviction that 
they would do more towards restoring 
content and tranquillity to the people 
of Ireland tbui they could ever hope 
to do even by the force they now pro- 
posed to send thither. He regretted 
to find that the people of England 
were not sufficiently jealous cl the 
increase of the nuKtaiy strength. 
Formerly, one spirit pervaded the 
whole nation on this subject, and 
there was no man who did not loud- 
ly express his detestation of a stand- 
ing army. Among the honourable 
member's own constituents, who, he 
-wedld take the liberty of saying, were 
as fe^ngly alive to the preservation 
of the constitution as any part of the 
community, some alarm was at this 
moment entertained, with respect to 
the projects of making barracks in 
the Teiy heart of Westminster. It 
was said that in that spot which had 
formerly been devoted to the amuse- 
ments of the crown, it was now in- 
tended to provide for the residence 
oi a force which might be made to 
ove R iwe the people, if ever their 
rigfafa should come in collision with 
tl^ pretensions of the crown. He 
hoped the noble lord would &vour 
lam with a categorical answer to the 
questkm, whether it was really the 
intentioa of government to con- 
vert the king's mews into military 
barracks? It was necessary, or at 
least it was fair, that if this was in- 
teifded, it shouki be known ; for he 



could assure the noble lord that it 
would make no smaU stir— he hoped 
in the metropolis, but certainly in 
that part of it.which was most nearly 
interesied in the subject Many of 
his constituents had complained to 
him of the pecuniary detriment 
which they experienced fay die ikxAi 
tin^up the thoroughfiue at the mews. 
This was certainly unjustifiable; but 
if, because it had been suffered, the 
noble lord thought the people would 
tamely endure the buildii^ of bar«» 
racks wherever the govemmentmight 
think fit, he would find himself ma^ 
taken. He knew that die noble lord 
had on a former occasion, when 
speaking on the subject of inhnd 
banadfiB, despised the antiquated aiH 
thority of Blackstone, and opposed to 
it the more enlightened wisdom of 
the present age. He b^ged pardon 
for tne len^ which he had troubled 
the comnuttee on this subject; but 
he could not suffer the opportunity 
which was now afforded him of ex- 
pressing his opinions on the augmen- 
tation <n the military force — opmions 
which, even if he should have the 
misfortune to hold them singly, he 
vn» nevertheless convinced were such 
as deeply concerned the preserva- 
tion of the constitution. Theabsaaoe 
of many of the hon. membos who 
usually supported the view whidi he 
had taken of the question, was among 
many lamentable proo& of the habit 
of supineness anainserudbility tothis 
subject which was gradually creep- 
ing on vdiere it l»d never before 
b^n received. He should vote with 
his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) for the 
proposed aniendment ; and if it had 
been extended to sending the whole 
army out of England, and leavii^ 
the oountiy under the protection of 
the civil power only, he would have 
no less wiIHn^y supported it 
Lord Palmerston replied As far 

as 



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PARUAMENTARY IHEBATBS. 



w Iw lad l)eM «bl».td oolteot the 
opiiuDii of tfae^ hdiiae» the horn ineni^ 
be» for Westmitisiet^ and Aheideen 
ytesb the only^genidciiien'wlio intend* 
ed to opfoae £e vote; it was' th«e* 
fi)re unneeseiai^ for ym< to enter 
linthsr into tiie dtacussian than to 
snsner BO«e of dm objeetioiis vfaidi 
the;^ had. labedL In the fint phoe, 
the holiu member fiw Aherdeen had 
flten^ tCK coneider the reinfoice* 
mente fiw tiie West India servioe ne« 
ecfiSBiy'; for ahhongh he had in the 
corihr pact of his speech denied tfak^ 
he had sAeswards conceded it Bat 
he saki^ that he had ooDBented to 
^ estimales of the hnt year only h^ 
eauae it was then expected that tbe 
eomitiy might be ei^a^ in a «ar» 
and biiC fbr thatpn>babilit)r he wouhl 
have proposed a reductvon to the 
anount of 10,000 men. The ho* 
noiuable gentkman might perhaps 
attnde to an opinion eniertamed by 
himself and his* friends; bnthisk)!^ 
ship felt it necessaiy, on his own 
|nrt» to deelate that such an ei^peeta^ 
tkai foffmed no part of the srounds 
on which he Ited solicitod me vote 
of laet year. On the oontraiy, the 
|[ovenmient then dedased its resoht- 
txn of remaining strictly neotrai^ 
aad he could not bdieve thrit the 
hdwe had been induced to ame to 
die vote for any such teaaans: bewas 
qnite son^ that none sach had been 
proposed by him. What were the 
neeosby whieh thehon* gentleman 
waM hMm/ the ledaction which he 
teoomnxended effected ? in breland he 
was of opinion that if certsm raea-i 
sores were adojpited, the nubtaiy 
ince at pieRnt there aai^ be widi* 
shvwn nad applied to & reinfinesi- 
noent of the eolonial aervioew . Did 
any man in his senses betaasS) that if 
Ae cathc^ question were set at 
rest to^monow, it wooU have ewh 
n more than magic e£Ebct upon Ire« 



hndfthat die ftroa empfeyei tbene 
mi§^ be safely remom at onoe ? 
Tm hen* member neit mopoaed^ 
that a reduction dxiuld oe made 
firom the cavaliy and the guards. He 
{Loid Pahnerstoa) was prepared to 
oontendy that there vrss not a laiger 
number of men in these regiments 
than wns fiikly proportioned to the 
infiuatiy cf ^ hoe ; and that it was 
impossiUe to reduce Aem vrithoMt 
ako reducing the efficiency ot that 
estaUiahmait^ winch even in tin^ 
of peiice» it was Aeoesniy to k^ iqi^ 
that amnea might be formed it war 
should break out. 

The honourable member hid aJU 
hided to the militia and veomanry ; 
but be knew very well that neither 
of those fiirces could in any way be 
made aerviceable for coloiual rein- 
foveements. StiU»hesaid,ifnotldi^ 
amid be done from any of ^b€»t 
sources, the aunnentation of the 
aaniy might bcCTected at alessexr 
pense» and that instead of six new 
s^menti, additioRa might be made 
to the eU one& Ife (lord Fsloiev. 
slmi) was qmte aware that huge regH 
mental estshKshmeots weie lesa w* 
pensive in propertioi^ than sBoudl 
ones; but fimn the nature of the 
colonies* and the »»iner in winch 
the forces were <&tributed9 an addi- 
tion of fifty men to eadi regiminif> 
aldimrii it would increase the a«- 
meiicd force of the estaUishaien^ 
wottUaot add to its disposable foroe^ 
becauae the additian woidd be made 
an many phuxs where it was aet 
wanted, and in ethers it wmdd be 
inadequate. The es^ense at whsdi 
the new ssaimeBte were mad9 wHS 
naiydbatof theofieem; andAiSkit 
most be remembensd, was kas Aiaii 
it miiriit seem to be^ for they wvn 
aupplied from the balf^pay M^ end 
the additional es;pense was therafoae 
only the diArenfie batems tOk md 
half-pay. 



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FARLUMENTARY DEBATES. 



8S 



IftR-pfljy which was lu^ as- the term 
wodd imply, one half, but in some 
infllances a t)M, and in othos only 
« lomth. The honourable member 
milder the gallery (Bfr. Bemal) had 
complained that the^thstem of quar- 
tering troops in the West Indies wias 
not snfficiendy attended to. The 
healthiness of Uie barracks, had hoW'- 
ever, long occupied the attention of 
the government, and great pains had 
been taken by sencung competent 
medical men to examine them, to 
procure the best opinions respectin? 
each station. He (lord Palmerstonj 
was aware that some stations had 
been found unfavourable to the health 
of the troops. The government had 
been en^sq^ in miaking arrange^ 
ments with the legisls^ve body of 
the island of Jamaica, to alter tnose 
tialions; and although some difficul- 
ties had arisen, he could assure the 
bonomal^ member and the house, 
^ttt the subject had been by no 
means lost sight of. With respect to 
^ time and season at which troops 
were sent to the West Indies, it was 
troe that it was extremely desirable 
tfie reinforcements should arrive there 
at paiticular periods of the year. The 
regmoent'to which his lionourable 
Inend behind (Mr. Wodehouse) had 
alluded, had unavoidably been sent 
under very unfavourable circum- 
stances ; but this was one of the pre- 
jndidal consequences arising from the 
force in the colonies being brought 
to so low an amount, that when a 
reinfbrcenievt became immediately 
neoessaiy, there was no means of 
sapplyix^ it, but by sending a red- 
ment from home, when perhaps Uie 
government could not control the 
period of its arrival. The lionoura- 
ole member for Westminster had 
said that he was in the sole posses- 
sion of peculiar opinions on the sub- 
ject before the house. He(lordPal- 



Merston) £d not dink hy the hoo. 
member*s arguments of this evenit^ 
he was at all Itkel^^ to lose the pos- 
session of those opinions ; and fbrUs 
own part he, (tordPiilmerston), as he 
would not vriOii^ly rob iStie honotu^- 
ble member of £e exclusive ctecfit to 
which they were entitled, should not 
say a word against them. It was by 
no means his wish to ridicule that 
proper constitutional jealousy urith 
which' the people of England had 
always regaraed the establishment of 
a standing army ; but he would put 
it to the honourable gentleman, or 
to those who were sincere admiren 
and well-wisheis of the constitution^ 
whether it was not better to reserve 
the expression of their opinions on 
the subject to a fitting opportunity, 
and whether they did not, in hit, 
throw ridicule on the cause they 
wished to support, by introducing 
those opinions upon occasions to 
which they <fid not apply. 

Mr, Hohkouse said, that the noble 
lord, for the purpose of rounding a 
period, had exaggerated what had 
fallen from him. He did not say 
that he was in the sole possession of 
the opinions he had expressed ; and 
at all events the noble lord might 
have done justice to the conscientious 
motives which prompted that expres- 
sion, even thoi^ it had been as ill- 
timed as he seemed to think it He 
was quite satisfied, no 
the ridicule which the 



noble Ion 
thought his (Mr. Hobhouse*s] inju- 
^dous support had thrown upon 
constitutional principles, that they re- 
mained unhurt by it. He was sure 
he had done those principles as little 
harm by his support as the noble lord 
had done by his attack. 

The committee &en divided : the 
numbers were— for the amendment* 
10*— against it, 102— majority. 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



Theoiigiiuil resolution was then 
carried. 

The following votes were then 
agreed to without opposition : — 

For defraying the expenses of the 
staff (exclusive of India), 92,2972. 

Ditto Ireland, 24,725/. 8^. 6i 

For defraying the expenses of 
medicines and surgical instruments, 
12,822/. 5s. 

Ditto Ireland, 4,558/. 125. 6d. 

For the volunteer ccnrps, 134,000/. 

Ditto Ireland, 19,343/. 12s. 8d 

For the troops and companies re- 
cruiting for the East India company^s 
service, 20,258/. 2s. Id. 

Royal military college, 11,423/. 
19*. U ^ ^ 

Army pay of general officers, 
169,170/. 

GarrisonsofGreatBritain,29,635/l 
13*. lOdl 

Ditto Ireland, 5,556/. 18*. 6d. ' 
' Full pay of retired officers, 
.134,442/. Os. Id. 

Half pay and military allowances. 
838,892/. 4*. 6d. 

Foreign half pay, 1 1 1,260/. 

In -pensioners of Chelsea and 
Kilmainham hospitals, 46,399/. 8*. 
Ud. 

Out-pensioners of Chelsea hospi- 
tal, 1,219,417/. Us. 10c/. 

Royal militaiy asylum, 23,864/. 
5& 3d. 

Widows* pensions, 134,25U 

Compassionate list and pensions 
for wounds, 186,384/. 13*. 9d 

Superannuation allowances, 
41,948/. 13*. 7d. 

Ditto Ireland, 5,292/. 16*. id. 

Excheauer fees, 33,000/. 

Lord Palmerston then stated that 
lie liad no fiuther votes to move. 

Sir George Clerk moved that the 
'Sinn of 53,286/. 5*. Id. be granted 
to defray die salaries and contingent 
'expenses of the admiralty office. 



The following votes wem dien 
.moved and agreed to : ^ 

For the salaries and oontingeii~ 
•cies of the navy pay office, 27,794iC 
1*. 6d. 

Salaries and contingencies of the 
navy-office, 57^670/. 15*. 

Ditto of the victualling-office, 
33,447/. 10*. 

Ditto of the dpck-yard at Dept- 
fold, 17,815/. 10*. Sd. 

Ditto of the dock-yard at Wool- 
wich, 19,364/. 10*. 

Ditto of the dock-yaids at Chat- 
ham, 24,865/. 10*. 2d. 

Ditto of the dock-yaids at Sheer- 
ness, 16,534/. 13*. 

Ditto of the dock-yards at Poite- 
mouth, 35,495/. 3*. 2d. 

Ditto of the dock-yards at Ply- 
mouth, 31,226/. 5*. Sd, 

Ditto of the dock-yards at Pem- 
broke, 6,490/. 10*. 

Ditto of the out-ports, 3,21 IZ. 
11*. 2d. 

Wages to artificers and labourera 
employed in his majesty's dock-yards 
at home, 476,400/. 

Charge for timber and all other 
materiab, for the building, repairing, 
and fitting his majesty's ships, &c. 
507,000/. 

Charge for pilotage, exchequer 
fees, &c. 40,000/. 

Foreign yards, salaries, &c, 
52,802/. 19*. 

Victualling yards, salaries, &c. 
72,669/. 12*. 

Medical establishments, salaries, 
&c. 52,406/. 17*. lid 

Royal naval college and school of 
naval architecteire, 6,177/. 12*. GdL 

Wages to officers, ship-keepers, 
and men belonging to vessels in 
ordinal, 103,528/. 17*. 5d. 

Victuals to officers, ship-keepers, 
te. 55,421/. 11*. 

Hired packets, 46,000/. 

136,299/. 16*. Id. to defray the 
ch 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



97 



diaiges of superanpimtions and pen- 
sions to officeiSy their widows and 
relatives. 

1,500/. for bounty to chaplains. 

VfiOOL in aid of the compassion^ 
atefisL 

The bouse then voted 290,000/. 
to make eood the deficiency in the 
fbndB for ^firaying the diarge of out- 
pensioners to Greenwich hospital. 

167,383/. 11«. Id. for pensions, 
superannuations, and allowances, to 
^cietahes, clerks, and others in na- 
val offices, in lieu of half-pay. 

10,000/. for ship-building in the 
Ea^ Indies. 

127,500/. for defrayii^ the ex- 
pense of repairs and improvements. 

255,000/. for the purchase of pro- 
visions for troops and garrisons on 
foreign stations, and for the convict 
service ; and the value of returns for 
troops to be embarked on board ships 
of war and transports, at per estimate 
prepared by the commissioners of the 
victualling-office. 

181 
ports. 



ihng-^ 
8,300- 



188,300/. for the charge for tians- 



The chairman reported progress, 
and asked leave to sit again; and 
the report was ordered to 1>b received 
on Monday next. 

Feb. 24.— Mr. J. WUliams. In 
rising to bring forward the motion 
to which he was about, on this second 
occasion, to call the attention of par- 
liament, he must observe, that if he 
tfaooehl h could be expected of him 
thathe should produce some plan on 
the sooceasful operation of which it 
became him to pronounce a confi- 
dent opinion, he could assure the 
house, with great sincerity, that he 
would have withdrawn from the un- 
dertaking ; because, when the extent 
of the subject was considered, and 
the period of time during which the 
evils of the system had been suffered 
to accumulate, he should look upon 

1824*] 



that man as rather bold than wise» 
wIk) wouki attempt to produce a 
specific applicable to so complete a 
case. The motion which he was 
about to lay before the house, and 
the observations he should feel it his 
duty to submit in support of that mo- 
tion, rested on a principle directly the 
reverse. His com|daint was, that too 
much had already been done on the 
subject of the court of chancery, with 
too little investigation and inquiry to 
warrant it It had been a matter of 
surprise to him, and a cause of regret 
to tne country, that so for back as 
eleven years ago, a measure of l^s- 
lation had passed that house on the 
subject that he was about to intro- 
duce, without any distinct inquiry 
having been instituted ; and he need 
not remiiki gentlemen, that now, in 
another house, a measure was to be 
found, not in contemplation, but in 
the actual course of adoption — which 
measure exposed to the people in all 
its nakedness, the harsh and presump- 
tuous proposition, that members of 
one house, because they were such 
members, were competent to judge 
of abstract points of law. (Hear» 
hear.) And it was a question, whether 
that measure did not nearly affect the 
constitution of the highest court of 
this country. (Hear.) If it did, then 
he said that the house of commons 
ou^ht to exercise a most vigilant su- 
perintendence over that measure, in- 
stead of remaining tranquil and idle 
spectators of its ^ects. Such was 
not formerly the conduct of that 
house. Gentlemen must be aware 
that in the reign of James I. when 
there was not such a court of chan- 
cery as existed now — far, very for 
firom it— when no measure was in- 
troduced into the other house which 
deserved deep consideration— at tlmt 
time, accidentally almoflt, as it ap« 
peazed, from the suggestion of sir 
G Edward 



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EdwBxd Coke» an inquiiy into tbe ad- 
ministration of justice was set on foot. 
At that period,, some dozen of Cot- 
nishmen were brought up^ to plead 
lo a trifling Celony; and no voIud- 
taiy information dven given of an p« 
fom^ity> together wim a suegestion 
of the mailer of the court ofwards^ 
who wished that an inqprjr, rektpa^ 
to the manner in which judicial duties 
wer^ performed, should be instituted* 
—on so slight a ground as that ap- 
peared to l^ on afanoA a matter of 
accident, and the house of commpn^ 
of that d^y fortned itself into a grand 
committee- of justice throughout the 
country, to die no small benefit of 
the people then, and long afterwards. 
Gentlemen knew that the chanoellor 
of that day (and (le spoke it with 
erid*, when he recollected the splenn 
did endowments of lord Bafion) coidd 
not dear himself from the charge of 
personal corruption -^^-a diaxge of 
which, in these times, no human 
being ever dreamed. Whaa the 
charge was pendii^ against lord Ba- 
con, as it appeared <» their joumalgy 
sir Edward Sackvyle reported to the 
house» th^t ** the chancellor offered 
wiUin^ to consent that any man 
might speak freely poncemu^ his 
court.*' Thqr did jw acQOrdm^y, 
and an inquiry took place, from which 
few of w legal dignitaries of that 
time escaped witlxrat censure and 
discomfitiMre; Chi such a slender 
ground was it, that the house of 
omimons deemed h neoessaiy to 
form itself into a grand committee of 
justice* But at a much earlier period, 
the house of commons did not feel it 
unwordiy of their attention to inves- 
tigate the cause of the debtys whidi 
arose in the administralaon of the 
justice of this counUy* In theieign 
of Edward III. a statute was pasM 

il4 Edwaitl IU..cap,'5.) which set 
)rth» *' that because diveismt8cfaie& 



have happened, for that in Av)M 
places, as well in the chancery, a» 
m the kin^*s bendi, common p&eas, 
and in the exchequer, before the 
justices assigned and other justices, 
to hear and determine deputed, the 
judgments have been deb^^i, some- 
times by difficulties, and sometimes 
by diverse opinions of the ytdfest 
and sometimes by other causes^ it ig 
assented^ established and acoonied» 
th9t certaiivpertons shaU beappointed 
to hear» by petition delivered to tfaeoa^ 
thecompbunts of all those who will 
csomplain to them of such delay* They 
shall have power to summon the jus* 
tices to show cause for such dehya* 
and.f»oceed to give relief to .the pas^ 
ties aggrieved." This was done at 
the remote period he had mentioned^ 
because it was fek to be of vast inw 
portance to the country that the ad* 
ministration of justice shouM be ao* 
cuiately watched over in all instaboeSL 
He mi^ht be peimitted to remark^ 
that thA house had not in modem 
times, suffered any measure connect^ 
ed with the jurisprudence of the coon- 
try to pass without a vigilant and jea- 
lous interference. He referred more 
particnlaily to what occurfed with le- 

r^ to a recent enactenent, haivfa^ 
its object the formation of a court 
injrhich were to be adjusted thea&ni 
of th^ most worthless past of the codbh 
mu][ii^. He alluded^ — (acoonfing ta 
the scale of moralilv in the cityc)«*-p 
to those who had toe leaat jDoneyw 
(A laugh.) AfUr two distinct i«pQrt» 
had lM«n made by oommilteeB or thai 
hons^ and not before, a court ^o»> 
sening a certain jurisdictioiifCertain^ 
a juriniction <^ very trivial conpiH 
lative interest, was formed for tbe 
purpose to wliach he had just adveit* 
ed. Nearly at thattime,anoble friend 
of hb (knd Ahhoip), not retying on 
his own pevBonal GQaracler-^not re- 
lying on his wdH-known takat for 



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biiriiiett, did not UiiBk it pfoper to 
introduce a bill, on a matter certainly 
0f impoctancei but wbidi dearly de* 
mancted a distinct revision, witliout a 
most solemn and deliberate considera* 
tion of a committee of that hcHue, and 
a report from that committee. It 
would be for others to decide on the 
necesBity of the proix)8itipn he in- 
tended to Ivii^ fonmd t birtthisbe 
would say, that if this house did not 
embark in measures sudi ds he had 
described, without maturely weighing 
and consideriRg every part of the suli^ 
jecfc, they could not surely be expected 
to adopt a different course on a mat- 
ter innnitely more grave and impor- 
tant He was not, however, driven 
to analogies in arguii^this<(uestion ; 
because it ^pea^ed, that ;iiiquiring 
into this subject was the order of the 
ds^. He had then before him dil- 
tinot precedents on the point It 
^appeared to some persons, or other 
(no matter whom) » that from the 
number of appeals Which flowed in 
ftom a distant part of the kingdom 
(he meant Scotland), there must be 
something defective in th^ formation 
of the court, or in the manner in 
iriiich the laws were administered. 
In consequence of this, a northern 
expedition was fitted out, under the 
annlority of an act of parliament, and 
composed of several grave imd learn- 
ed mau This commission was to 
in^mre whether all Was sound in the 
funsprudenoe of our northern neigfa- 
IxNirB; and by the 4th of George IV. 
cap. S5. they^ received die fullest^ the 
most ttkisparing powers to perform 
that doty. By that ^tattite '' fuU 
power is given to p«r8onia to be 
named, to aiake inquiriea into the 
ferms of proce^in the court of ses- 
sion, and thecodrt of ajfypealii ; and 
th^ are directed to report whether 
the pre8ent;form3 Of process might 
be improved by -simf^i^ng .and 



shortening the forms of pleading and 
proceeding— by sepaming matters 
of fact from matters of law, &c. ; and 
they are also directed to set down in 
writing such alterations and amend- 
ments as shall seem necessary or use- 
fuL Power is given to them to call 
for persoiis, papers^ and records, and 
their opinions are to be «tated,through 
the secretary' of state' to both houses 
of parliament'* This: (observed Mr. 
Williams) ws(S a wise and salutaiy 
measure, and h was tmly necessary 
to be acted on, lit our pait of ^the 
country, with some little dteiation^ 
to produce the most lasting benefit. 
The alteration to which he adveited 
was, to substitute other persons in the 
room of professional men ! for, not- 
wjthstanaing the respect he enteN 
tmned for the le^ profession, he 
must say, that their love of ancient 
form was very Kkely to bias their 
opinion. He therefore would pro- 
€1080 substituting a committee of this 
nouse ; which was the be^ tribunal 
in the* country for extended and use* 
ful inquiry and investigation, in the 
place of a body of p]^)m3sional men. 
The measure, he repeated, was a good 
and salutary one ; and recfuired only 
this aherdtion to be perfectly effidcnt* 
But it might be said, that what was 
safe in Scotland was not safe in Eng- 
land ; and although parliament hsM> 
on such a subie^ legislated as he 
had described for Scotland, yet the 
housey in being called on to act thus 
for Epgland, was placed in a veiy 
different situation. "Hie difference, 
he contended, was all in favour of 
the measure, and pointed out, most 
imperatively, the nece^ity of adopt- 
ing it Where the evil complained 
of was not so remote — ^where it was ' 
within their immediate reach— where 
thb s^reat and growing nuisance was 
rapidly spreading itself over the land 
— ^in a case like that, he asked, was 

the 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



the house furnished with such a pre- 
cedent as to justify it in shutting its 
doors ? Against legisbtion ? No ; 
but against parliamentary inquiry. 
It was safe, and prudent, and rigm, 
to adopt a measure of this nature on 
the north of the Tweed; but it wais 
unsafe, and impolitic, and unwise to 
introduce such a practice south of the 
Tweed. To such mcomnstencies must 
those be driven who, if there were 
any such, meant to oppose his mo- 
tion. He was not lx)wever, aware, 
that any honourable members meant 
this night to set themselves against 
^^^quiry. 

He was fiilly aware, the honourar 
ble and learned gentleman conti- 
nued, of the difficulty of the task 
which he had undertaken. He 
needed not be told that he was igno- 
rant of the practice and principle of 
the court of chancery, for he avowed 
it Practice in that court as an ad- 
vocate, he certainly had none ; ex- 
perience as a suitor, while he could 
command die remec^ of a pistol, he 
would never have. (Cheers and 
laughter.) But if the people of 
England waited until some person 
came forward, with full experience 
in the court of chancery, to make 
the motion which h^was now mak- 
ing, he feared that they would have 
to wait a very tedious time indeed 
(hear) — ^they would have to wait un- 
til motives of interest should cease 
to sway the views and conduct of 
mankind. (Hear.) Juc^eships, mas- 
terships, commissionerships, attor- 
neyshms, solicitorships, these things 
danced before the eyes of learned 
^tiemen, and diverted their atten- 
tion, and prevented them (he spoa^e 
goierally) from perceiving UK)se 
grievances which tiieir clients, ne- 
vertheless, were no way prevented 
from suffering. Now, in spite of all 
the disadvantages uiider which he 



had to come forward, there was one 
point, as to which no man ooukl 
stand in a better situation— while he 
would cautiously avoid stating any 
thing which he did not fully l^lieve 
to be true, the focts which did reach 
him should have utterance as for as 
he had power. (Cheers.) There 
was anotner difficu% which beset 
the case, as he (Mr. Williams) was to 
enter upon it, and that was the man- 
ner in which, on a former oocasioii, 
(and he presumed it was to happen 
again upon the present occasion) — 
the maimer in wnich his argomenta 
had been met by the other side. 
Every succeeding case whidi he 
produced had been treated as a sort 
of wonder ! — as though, for the first 
time in die hearing oif man, he bad 
been stating the fact tiiat there were 
delays in ckmcery (hear)— as thov^ 
he had been broaching some new 
subject, or pioducinff some startling 
paradox, to the trutii of which no 
well-constituted mind could possibly 
give its assent, without the adduce- 
ment of most multitudinous as well 
as undeniable evidence. (Hear.) But 
was the foct so ; or was it fit to act 
as though it were so ? Was evay 
member of that house bound to dis- 
miss the private information, as wdl 
as the general notoriety of the griev- 
ance imder debate ? Was it just or 
right that he should be met in argu- 
ment, as though the evil he was de- 
precating had never been heard of, 
when complaints of it met us in the 
courts, in our houses, in our streets ; 
and when there was not,' perhaps, a 
comer of the kingdom, except the 
house of commons, in which its 
grievousness was not felt, and ad- 
mitted, and lamented ? (Cheers.) A 
third ^hfficuhy still he had to struggle 
with, and he had no hesitation in 
repeating it, although it had been 
treated, on his fora^ei^ moition, if not 

as 



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m an inventon, as an exaggeration, 
and tlut was the difficulty which he 
ibund in eliciting facts, and in drag- 
ging them to light And he declareid 
. apon bis honour as a gentleman, 
standing where he did, in lus place 
in parhament, that this difficulty to 
which he aQuded was most strictly 
and absolutely tine. Practically, as 
to facts, he had experienced every 
difficult ; and he would endeavour 
Id pot the house into the way of see- 
ii^ so much. Subsequent to the 
notice which he had given of bring- 
ii^ on the present question, hearing 
of a particular case which seemed 
important to his argument — ^not as 
applied specifically to the evil of 
ffelsrfr, for this particular case had 
been brought to a determination 
rather witfin a period of twenty 
years, (hear, and Iwighter) — but rich 
m wiety of proceeding and ex- 
pense, and illustrative, oesides, of 
that conclusion not in chancery im- 
oommon— to wit, that when victory 
came, it brought ruin along with it 
(Much laughter.) Having heard of 
this case and its great qioHties, he 
had applied to the sohcitor concern- 
ed, tie had seen him ; stated his 
olject; said that he meant to use 
his information in the house of com- 
mons, and that he should feel him- 
self entitled to detail, if not the 
particulars, yet the result of their 
oonversation ; and the efiect of the 
oonveisation had been, that the soli- 
citor refused papers, and politely 
declined making any communication 
upon the subject (Hear.) In another 
ease, a poition of which he should 
have (as it was) to state to the 
house — a short time subsequent to 
die last motion which he had had the 
honour of making before the house, 
he had met with a solicitor—a man 
of perfect respectabili^— who said 
(as he was informed, mdeed in all 



quarters) that he had been extremely- 
unfortunate in citing cases, and ihs± 
he might, without difficulty, have 
obtained them greatly stronger and 
more striking ; and, as a proof, had 
proceeded to give lum the details of 
a case certainly most signal for the 
time of its duration, as well as for the 
numberof attendances in it He had 
not been able to read the whole case 
at the time to which he referred; 
nor even if he had read it, could he 
expect now to remember tfie circum- 
stances ; but, since ^ving notice of 
his present motion, he Imd applied 
for die details. Doubts in the mean 
time had arisen, either with the soli- 
citor or the client; and the very 
focts which, in the first instance, had 
been offered to him freely, the par- 
ties were no longer inclined to sup- 
ply. (Hear, hear.) 

He would state another instance to 
the same effect, for, on his side the 
question, single facts were not suffi- 
cient. During the last Christmas 
hofidays, he l:^ happened to be in 
. a nei^bourhood where there was a 
single woman, who had a small for- 
tune locked up in chancery, and, 
pending the proceedings, was reduced 
to great distress. The case was a 
case pretty generally known. He 
had heard of it prior to the time to 
which he now referred; and had 
called upon a solicitor, whom he 
knew formerly to have been enga^ 
in the suit The gentleman applied 
to recollected the case, and spoke to 
it ; but, " although it is very bad," 
said he, ** it is nothing at all com- 
pared to another that I have" (hear) ; 
and then proceeded to detail (in this 
new case) aU the urgencies of his 
client — the great distress in which 
he had been plunged — and the anxi- 
ety with which he himself (the soli- 
citor) had in vain endeavoured to get 
judgment Now, at the time of the 

con- 



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PARUAMENTAAY DEBATES. 



OODvenatiQa ii|^ question, the solicitor 
had his papers, and was willing to 
give them. It happened that he 
(Mr. Williams) had he^n profession- 
ally engaged at the moment* and 
there^MB uixable to take them. He. 
had written to the same party since, 
for the papers, and was toki tliat since 
their interview, he had taken time to 
deliberate; and^ on cpnsideration, 
must decline to give them. (Hear.) 

There was another case which he 
8iM>ukl have to adduce to the house, 
and imperfectly, from a want of the 
neqeasaiy infonnation. In this last 
case, the solicitor admitted the ^nev-^ 
ance. He even was not unwilling 
to give the particulais : but, thot^h 
not unwilling, he was afraid* He 
said— <* If I give these papers, I 
shall become a marked man : I will 
not say in court, but certainly in the 
surrounding offices, and my business 
will be traversed and impeded*** 
(Much cheering.) He (Mr. Wil. 
hams) did call the attention of the 
house to these &cts; not so much 
from a desire to vindicate his own 
character in the assertions which he 
made — ^though that he might be al- 
lowed to wish shouki stand well with 
the house and with the country— as 
from a wish to convince honourable 
members that information upon the 
subject really was withheld, when he 
suggested that the information which 
was.denied before the house he could 
command before a committee. (Hear.) 
The respectable body of solicitors 
put him in mind of an observation 
which Mr. Burke had aj^lied to 
another class of individualfr-—'* Tbey 
are like cats, who will not put out 
their electric light until they have 
their backs rulH)ed." (Hear, and 
laughter.) The d^;ree of attention, 
whatever that was, which it might 
be necessaiy to bestow upon these 
gentlemeni before they would give out 



their lig^ would be best^as well m 
most ptoasantly, he thoiii^]t,admini»- 
teied to them before a oommitteew 
(Hear.) He should now come to thooe 
foctSr and papors, such as he had 
been able to collect them, to which 
he trusted more than to any state- 
ments for support in the measure he 
proposed; but first, in answer to 
some observationB at a former time, 
he wislied to aak a single question* 
If, with his ignorance of the busi- 
ness of the court of chancery-^that 
ignorance which jusdy was attributed 
to him«»he had been able to hnpa 
before the house those facts which 
were contained in the papers upcm 
the table — if be, with his ignorance, 
indeed, could make out any tl ' 
like a case before the house, 
(that which now b^an to be 
terial) a case before the country, how 
crying must the evil reaUy be, and 
how much more gkunng would it 
have appeared, if the subject had 
chanced to fall into the hands of 
persons of real informaticm and ex- 
perience ? (Much cheering.) The 
first document to which he desired 
to refer was, the return upon the 
table, containing an account of the 
number of appeals and re-heaucings, 
from the time of the appointmait <^ 
ithe, vice-chancellor in 1813 to the 
close of the last year. He saw that 
the paper embraced the years 1813 
and 1823 ; whedier it took in the 
whole of those two years he was not 
able to state. Now what did this re- 
turn prove ? -There was a list of 
causes amounting to 168 or 169. A 
small number, three or four, bad 
been withdrawn, or struck out fay 
the consent of the parties concerned. 
The causes before the vioe-chanoel> 
lor, amounting to 84, were to be 
deducted. This number was nesiiy 
one-half of the whole— that was to 
say, that 85 was as nearly as rak^ 



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he, the number of efficient causes in 
fen years ; and, supposing that to be 
the estimate, the appeals had been 
in the pfroportion of eight and a 
fraction m each year. He had stated 
on a former occasion to the house, 
that the business of the court was in 
«« admired disorder" (a laugh) — thj^t 
it was difficult always to say of any 
business when it would come on — 
that this was the caase of great ex- 
pense and waste of time— just, in 
^ct, as any private individtJRal, who 
had suffered his accounts to run into 
arrear, found it difficult, if not im- 
possible, to transact business with 
regularity; If honourable gentlemen 
would turn to the third page of the 
return upon the table, they would 
find, that after making deductions for 
causes struck out and withdrawn, 
there were twelte effective causes 
left upon the whole. Of these, there 
were tivee that averaged seven years 
old, from the date of presenting the 
petition to the time of the order ; 
three which avers^ed six years; and 
three which avers^ed about two 
months. Now, on what principle,, 
when tfiere were 104 appeals on the 
paper of the chancellor— on what 
prmciple, except by some disorder 
in the general a rr a ngements of the 
court, <Sd he find a cause of nine 
^ears standing by the side of a cause 
of two mohtbi > And yet such was 
the case, accordii^ to the paper 
which be held in his hand, fiideed, 
looldn^ tiffough the liist, instead of 
any thmg like good order or r^- 
fanty of a rra ngement, he found 
aolbing but disoraer from the begin- 
ning to die end. If the house would 
tAe an account, it would find, that 
in nineteen cases no order appeared 
to have been dra.wn up by the suitors, 
even after it had been pronounced 
by the court. This was indei)endent 
of cases settlfid by the parties be- 



tween themtelves^ when they were 
driven to compromise by the despair 
of coming to any conclusion. 

No. 3 J-^third page of the return 
— ^was the case of •* Tlie attorney- 
graeral r. Brooke.'* The history of 
this case was curious, and it was yet 
one of the least of the examples 
which would be produced. It was 
heard before the lord chancellor after 
an interval of six years, and his lord- 
ship decided it as to the merits, but 
took time to consider as to the ques- 
tion of costs ; and during that time 
no order could be drawn up. For 
two entire years constant applications 
were made, term after term, for 
judgment; and, at the end of that 
time, the parties compromised, de- 
spairing of obtaining any judgment 
at all (Hear, hear.] He had tlMught 
it right, since, without facts, and 
abundant fiicls, he could do no- 
thing, to bring before the house an 
account of the business of the two 
last terms, with reference to ori^nal 
causes, appeals, and re-heanngs, 
wfiich were precisely the subjects to 
which the returns on the table would 
apply. He was happy to flay, that 
as n^avded original causes, appeals, 
and re-hearinn^ he could state pre- 
cisely that much bad been done. 
F^rst, diere stood the case of Wien* 
holt iand Logan,'* which had been 
heard, but upon wiiich nojudgment 
had been pronounced. l%en came 
file case of «*Nunn r. Agutter,** 
again heard and no ju^^ent pro-> 
nounced. Then came ** the attoiw 
ney-general v. Mansfield," in which, 
upon hearing, an oinnion had been 
intimated, but the question of costs 
was reseired, and therefore to the 
present moment there was no order 
drawn up, nor could the case be dis- 
posed on ** Cox r. lord Somers"-— 
this was a case of re-hearing; it 
was heard, bat no judgment erren. 
•Powel 



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«< Powell V. Monchett," — this was a 
case of appeal ; it was heard in part, 
but no judgment pronounced. So 
that, except with respect to the case 
of ** the warden and fellows of 
Christ college, Manchester,'* which 
did not take up half an hour in ar- 
gument and opinion 'together -ex- 
cept in that case, not a single final 
decision had been given. (I&ar, and 
laughter.) But l^ides these cir- 
cumstances, he was able, and he felt 
pleasure in beine able to state to the 
bouse, the number of times exactly 
in which these causes had appeared 
in the cause paper ; for every time 
of wMch the solicitor in the cause 
was, before hearing, entided to a fee 
of 138. 4d. ; and Irom the hearing, 
downwards, he and the clerk m 
court, to a fee of 1/. between them. 
(Hear, hear.) It would be worth 
while to listen to the expense which 
this arrangement, or this want of it, 
had led to. The case of '< Wiexiholt 
and Logan'* had been in the paper 
fifteen days. '* The attorney-gene- 
ral and the corporation of Bristol" 
was an appeal lodged in October 
last ; it had been twentjr-four days 
in the paper, and not touched at all. 
(Hear.) "< Campbell and Ward" 
was an appeal lodged in Easter term 
last, and had a precedency over 
other suitors, which he did not un- 
derstand ; the precedency, however, 
went only as far as the paper, where 
it had appeared fifteen days, and not 
been touched. (Hear, hear.) ** Pow- 
ell and Monchett," heard and not 
decided, had been twenty days in the 
paper. And so far for the eflfect of 
documents, the statements of which 
he believed would be found to be 
authentic, and which as r^arded the 
mere unnecessary expense which 
they shewed affected the suitors in 
chancery, would be sufficient, he 
submitted, to warrant a revision of 



the labours of that court Not that 
he meant to rest, lx>wever, upoD 
these ^neral expositions, because he 
knew It might be said, aiMl, what was 
more, that it would be said, ** that 
there was no delay, no inconvenient 
delay — no expenditure: that was, 
no unnecessary expenditure." In- 
deed, there was nothing at all that 
he Imew of which could not be de- 
clared, and with a certain degree of 
weight and authority, provided the 
spe^er stood in a right position in- 
the house. .(Hear, and laughter.) 
The assertion becaume not a matter 
upon which reason and consideration 
was to be exercised^ts ■ truth or 
fakhood became a question merely 
of locality. (Hear.) And therefore, 
while he felt that from some quarters 
very little indeed would be taken to 
amount to proof, he himself stand- 
ing in the wrong situation, could 
venture no proof even, which was 
not well authenticated. 

To come then to the citing of 
cases, in doing which he might 
seem to be something dilatory ; but 
it would be recollected that he had 
to contend with both situation and 
argument to bear him down. (Hear, 
hear.) The cases which he should 
produce would, the weakest of them, 
he believed, produce great effect; 
upon the whole, they would be im- 
perative for a complete and speedy 
change of system. He should begixi, 
then, with the case of ** Dudley v. 
Freeman," and endeavour, as briefly 
as possible, to state the fact of it to 
the house. In the year 1783, a per- 
son of the name of Keeling made a 
will in favour of the children of a 
gentleman of the name of Freeman, 
(Freeman, the defendant, beine the 
eldest of these), and died. The plain- 
tiff DiKlley was heir at law, ana trus- 
tee to the will ; and in the year 1 784, 
(Keeling having died in 1783), he 

filed 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



105 



filed a bill in cbaaoery to execute the 
trusts of the wilL In the year 1787, 
a decree coniiiining the trusts of the 
will was passed; a receiver was ap- 
pointed: and the present defendant. 
Freeman, was allowed for several 
yeare» fint IQOL a-year, and after- 
wards 2002. out of the proceeds of 
the estate. In the mean time, a 
doubt bad been expressed in a cer- 
tain quarter, as to the validity of the 
limitation imder which the defend- 
ant. Freeman, took ; and Dudley, 
hearing of that doubt, in the year 
1812 filed a petition for the purpose 
of reviewing the decree of 1787. 
(Hear, hear.) That petition was put 
upon the file m 1812. From 1812 
to 1818, nothing whatever was done 
iniL (Hear, hear.) In 1818, the 
matter, after six years* interval, came 
on to be heard ; and, on the hearing 
— -eccoTding to a measure of form, 
which he md no doubt was corrects 
no judgment was given, on the ground 
tluut a petition was not the regular 
mode of proceeding. (^*Hear," and 
lau^ter.) In 1819, however, a bill 
of review was filed. In the lent of 
1821, the question was ai^^ed in 
court; and, between that time and 
the summer of 1823, judgment was 
called for repeatedly without effect. 
The defendant*s-whole expectations 
depended upon the result The pro- 
pefty consisted of 2,000 acres of land, 
and an accumulation of 100,000^ in 
mon^, which he had reckoned upon 
ftam his birth. At this time (1823) 
hs was in a dangerous state of healtL 
Certificates were sent by physicians 
stating the urgency of the case. The 
feeling was so strong, that even ma- 
gistrates of the couaty in which he 
resided — (he, Mr. Williams, did not 
si^ that tl)is proceeding was correct, 
but it bad been resorted to) — had 
made remonstrances which were 
shown to the counsel in the cause ; 



and at last, after an immense num- 
ber of attendances, time .afler time, 
upon appointments to ^ve judgments 
, — he (Mr. Williams) had applied to 
the solicitor in town for the number 
of these attendances, for the original 
attorney in the countiy had been li- 
terally worn out in the cause. (Hear, 
hear.) The thing was so. Men 
would die, and smts would survive. 
(Hear, and laughter.) The town so- 
licitor had ref i^ to name the pre- 
cise nmnber of attendances ; but he 
(Mr. Williams) could state with con- 
fidence that there had not been less 
than forty; a gentleman who was 
concerned in the cause said that he 
had himself attended not less than 
sixteen specific appointments for 
judgment (Hear, hear.) In Uie mean 
time, such was the anxiety of the 
client in the country, that he had 
urged his solicitor over and over agaiu 
to midertake special joumies to Lon- 
don (incurrine injimense expenses in 
this way, which would not, on taxap 
tion of costs, be allowed by the mas- 
ter) in order to hear the case when 
these notices of judgment had been 
given; but the attorney came and 
waited, and lingered, and, as he had 
come, returned again. At length, on 
the 4th of June last, 1823, a motion 
was made in the house of commons^ 
on the subject of delays in the court 
of chancery. The debate was ad- 
journed ; and on the morning of the 
5th, an intimation was ^ven at the 
^tting of the court as to judgment in 
the case of <« Dudley and Freeman." 
The judgment was given in one sen- 
tence — given without reasons stated, 
and appealed against ; but eventually 
the parties, like wise men, agreed to 
compromise their difference. (Hear, 
hear.) This, then, was the extent of 
the case of " Dudley and Freeman." 
The next case with which he would 
trouble the house was ^' Lord Moira 

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PAttLIAMENTARY DEB AtES. 



and others v. Wyatt and 'others." 
This was ^ bill filed by Lord Moiia 
and his trustees against the defend- 
ants, as the commissioners under the 
Charawood-forest inclosnre act, and 
the question turned on the construc- 
tion of a clause in that inclosure act, 
as to the liability of lords of manors 
to contribute towanb the expenses. 
The bill was filed in 1814, and the 
question came before the court of 
chancery in January 1817. 8it S, 
Romilly and other learned gentlemen 
were counsel for the defendbnts. The 
case was very fully argued on both 
mdes, and the court, after expressing 
an opinion in favour of the plaintiffs, 
at' last concluded to take the papers, 
and consider of judgment The cause 
vested until 1819, when, in conse- 
quence of a determination of the 
commissionen to make their award, 
counsd were instructed to apply to 
the lord chancellor for judOTient; 
and the answer to this apphcation 
was^' that the papers in the cause 
were lost ' Thn intimation, that the 
papers were lost, was actoally the 
answer received from the r^^ar 
officer. Ffesh papers, then were 
famished, and fresh preparation hr 
fresh aigument Sir &unud Romilly 
being dead, and the other counsel in 
^e cause having left the court, it 
was feund necessary to appoint fi^h 
learned gentlemen ; and the matter 
was again discussed. 

In this state things rested until die 
year 1820, when the solicitor in the 
cause received intimation that the 
lord chancellor would take the act 
of parliament home ^th him, and 
eive his judgment on ^ morrow ; 
but never did the parties «« that mor- 
row see!'* (Hear, and laughter.) 
Tbe parties could not move ; iSe mo- 
tion only respected the construction 
of the iftcksure act, and all that was 
required ifBs the award of the com* 



mis^oners ; yet in fear, or huther in 
utter despair, of «ver obtaining the 
judgment of the counsel, they came 
among themselves to a compromise. 
This couM not be called justice, and 
therefore they could not be wrong 
in terming it the failure of justice. 
*The veiy CTOund, the only ground 
upon wfiicm parties had any reason 
to submit their cause, was neglected 
by the tribunal, all the expenses 
were wasted, the proceedings were 
absolutely null and worthless. The 
next case which he had to mention, 
was one in which a gentleman very 
well known to him Vi^as interested ; 
but as it respected his domestic con» 
cems he would not give up his name 
to the commoner purposes of this dis>* 
cussion. If any gentleman should 
feel disposed to question the accuracy 
of this statement, or should suppose 
that he used any exaggeration, then 
indeed his friend had authorized him 
to offer a inoi« direct communication 
of his address and situation in life to 
thepartysodoubting. Thegentleman 
to whom he alluded married a ladty, 
whose misfortune it was, and cer* 
tainly not her fault,, to succeed to a 
portion of her f^er*s property, 
which required the interference of 
the court of chancery. He to<^ 
his wife, as he (Mr. VS^illiams) sup- 
posed all other gentlemen did, (but 
upon this point his married friends 
were better informed than himself), 
for better for worse. Certainly in 
the lady he took the better portion, 
and in the court of chancery the 
worse ; he might in this case use the 
superlative degree of comparison, and 
say the worst A bill was filed for 
account, an answer was put in, and 
there was a decree. The proceed- 
ing b^gan to move at this juncture 
with miraculous rapidi^. The gen- 
tleman was a person of^^ veiy compe- 
tent undeistanding; he had friends 



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107 



iatlie profeaskm of die law«»Iie had 
a neav rdatioii who was a oounad, 
and he poKeased no inadeqoabe 
knowledge of the subject hunflelf— 
be had aU the advantages which his 
inendfthip and alhanoe wkh pfofea* 
gional men could give; and although 
it seemed as if he would have no 
gceat time to abide in chancery^ yet 
witlt the penp^ve before him of a 
f*qpoct firom the master*8 office, ex« 
ceptioos Id the repOEt« ercepdons to 
the jexQeptiooa^ appeal to ,tiie chan^ 
odkr (piobably after an appeal fipom 
the Tice-chanoeUor, or the master of 
die rc^), appeal iiom the^lord ohaz^ 
odAor to the house of loids, record 
remitted bad^ again for another exa* 
minatioii in the master's office^ ditto 
repeated as to appeal and so on-«-ia» 
ther than risk the. chance of all this, 
the , gentlanan, as well acqtiainted 
inth the sdbject, and as intelligent 
as aiqr gentleman could be, and with 
the most friendly and powerful advice 
which any geK^emancould command 
-— fipom the mere dread of ddt^ did 
aaeat toa compromise^ by winch he 
delibei^ttdy abandoned one half of 
hisclaiau It was impoarible to name 
a case which more deariy illustrated 
the pnodcal merits of the subject 
mpoa whidi he was q>eak]ng* He 
went on to the next case, to which 
hisatteotbn had been directed short- 
ly after the modon which he had the 
honour to submit in the couise of last 
sessions. He had a partial know* 
ledee of it at the time. One party 
in £e case was a memher of the pro- 
feflrion, but he was reluctant, on ao- 
oomt oi obvious reasons, to furnish 
information. And while he was' up- 
on this part of thesubject, he most 
mjf that until the house would con- 
sent t& grant a committee, their in- 
tentions would be charged widi the 
of stifling all inquiry. That 
, homvetft was applied to 



for the 6ds of Uscase by Us lesmed 
friend kmg before. He (Mr. Willt. 
ams) odlra on him after the motion 
of last year. 'Hie house would ob* 
serve tint he was reluctant to give up 
any £Mte, htii^ in die profession of 
the law himsetf: he peraisted in de» 
dining to do so. He (Mr. Williams) 
gave hun to understand diat he had 
already possessed the bulk of his case, 
perhaps d-lOdis of it, anddiat it was 
not competent in him to deprive lum 
(Mr. Williams) of die ii^formadoa 
which be had already aocpiiredt W^ 
great reluctance this gentleman gave 
ui> the remainder of the foots, and 
this he did, not with a view to in* 
creasing his (Mr. Williams) materi- 
als, but for the greater certainty in 
the statement which he was infomed 
would be made of diem in after pro* 
ceedings. He must, therefore, dedine 
givii^up the nameof diisgendeman, 
except any gendeinan in the house^ 
should show such reasonable doubt as 
would entitle him to the e3cplanati<m, 
in which case he was authorized to 
refer direcdy to the party. The 
case itself was aii action Ixought on 
an annuity bond in the early part of 
die year 1817. Soon aft^ward a 
biU was filed by die defendant at law, 
for relief i^ainst the bond. A very 
short time before the summer assiasea 
of l817,amotion was made by thede*^ 
fondant at law, the plaintiff in eqiaty*. 
to stay the trial, which motion warn 
refused on the ground of the nearap-^ 
preach of the assizes ; but an injuiMV 
tion veas granted to sta^ execution.. 
The trial came on in the summer 
assizes of that year. The plaintiff ob^ 
tained a Terdict Earty m the fol- 
lowing term theplaintiff at lawmoved 
the court to dissolve the injuncti<ni« 
In the course of the term, the merks 
were discussed at length, and the 
whole argument distinctly heani — 
that is tossy, die groondiupoawhieh 

die 



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tbe inftmclioii was granted ^eie ar- 
gaed, and finalhr decided The mat* 
ter stood for judgment that term, and 
there it stood for s6me time after. 
How long did they suppose? For 
three years and a half. Frequent ap- 
plications were made hy the counsel 
forjuc^menton the injimdion. Mean- 
time the papers wer6 lost, and found 
again. Afber the expiration of three 
im)le years and a half, judgment 
was given for the plaintiff at law, on 
the ground that there was a legal de- 
fence, of which the other party miglit 
have availed himself at law. His 
opinion was against them on the 
point, but he wotdd not send a case 
£}r argument It happened that one 
par^9 an obligee in the bond, in the 
course of those three years and a half, 
became ba^ikrupt, and so did the 
other a few months a&er the injunc- 
tion was dissolved, and the loss to the 
J>laintilf , giving only a reasonable va- 
uation for the annuity which thus 
failed him, could pot be less than 
10,000/. There was one considera- 
tion incidental to this case, which de- 
served more attention than he could 
at present stay to give it — that con- 
sideration went to the constitutional 
right of interference in the jurisdic- 
tion assumed by this court If it 
had been stated in 1817, that there 
was no legal ground for the injunc- 
tion in equity, and the argument up- 
on that question had been complet^ 
why was the injunction granted at 
an ? Was it forgotten that there was 
an express statute of Edward VL, 
which provided — "that no matters 
determinable by the laws of the realm, 
shall be determined by other course 
than that <^ the same law in the 
king*s courts having determination 
of that law." Was it not a necessary 
and indispensable averment in every 
bill filed m eqinty, that the petitioner 
was wi^ut remedy at law? Why 



shoiJd'this court assume dominafion 
over the courts of common law, 
against the authority and decree of 
parliament, and when that common 
kw was declared, in so many ways, 
to be of sovereign authority in the 
realm ? (Hear^ hear.) This, however, 
was matter of too high import fer hin^ 
to deal with — he would conclude his 
remariffl upon it by saying, that if the 
accumulation and delays in chan- 
ceiy, which were allowed on aU 
hands to exist, were in any mea- 
sure owing to this straining exercise 
of the jurL^ctk>n, the sooner its pow- 
ers were dtered the better, both for 
the interests of individuals, and the 
character of the jurisprudence. It 
was perfectly monstrous for a oout 
to be allowed to interpose its autho- 
rity, and usurp the power of deciding 
to the exclusion of another court pos- 
sessed of much better knowledge of 
all the fects, whether legal or dr- 
cumstantiaL He confined hisobiec- 
tionto the use of that jwwer in wnich 
the court of chancery itself admitted, 
as it had done in the case last dted, 
that the party had a legal defence, 
and dismissed the case afcer conside- 
rable delay, on that very ground. The 
gentleman of whose sufferings he 
had thus spoken, was affluent and 
sensible also, and contrived to avoid 
the worst effects which might have 
fidlen upon him— but no thanks to 
the court of chancery. 
. The next case was one to whidi 
he had alluded already; the fects 
had been voluntarily stated to him. 
He must of necessity, confine himself 
to a partial statement of them, unless 
his honourable and learned fiiend on 
the other side, (whose appearance in 
his place, whether his appointment 
were attributable to genaal orspedal 
eroumk of fevour, gratified him (Mr. 
Williams veiy much) would conde- 
scend to assist'him with more details. 

The 



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lOd 



iTbe case was diat of ** Cobb v. lord 
Mountfort.*' llie motion was of an 
interlocutoiy nature — one of those 
modes by which the court continued 
•* to please" and " tease" her suitors. 
The matter got into the paper in the 
shape of exceptions, though the ori- 
ginal was a bill filed for account, in 
the year 1812. Itwas heard in 1815. 
As many applications were made as 
his hcmourable and learned friend op- 
posite might choose to admit; but his 
memory must have suffered a won- 
derful damage from forgetfulness if 
he could not state enough to surprise 
the house. In the years 1814-15- 
16 there was not less than forty. Two 
of the exceptions were at len^h dis- 
posed of; the other remained to this 
hour undetermined, and in the mean 
time judgment was deferred. But 
this did not touch the body of the 
case, which was hung up on this in- 
terlocutoiy matter down to this year 
1824, and there, perhaps, it would 
hang until another and more serious 
day of judgment should occur. 

The last case to which he would* 
refer he should have to go into at 
more length, as it seemed to him to 
be the most complete illustration of 
all the quesdonswnich he had brought 
fofrward. The case was that of «'Copis 
r. Middleton." In 1793, a bill was 
€led for an account of the estate of 
Nott, deceased, and praying that cer- 
tain land, with a windmill, should be 
included and distributed accordingly^ 
on the ground thaf it had been frau- 
dulently conveyed by Nott, without 
a»sideration. In 1796 there was a 
decree for an account. The matter 
then went into the master*8 office, 
aoMl there it remained. How long 
did the house think it remainedthere ? 
What would they think of nineteen 
years ? (Hear, hear.) In 1815, by 
great good luck, it found its way out 
^igain* Not that he would have it 



understood, and he was amdous to 
save his hon. and learned friends op- 
posite the trouble of arming them- 
selves with unnecessary objections, 
that there was any particular ur^cy 
used to bring the matter on. Hedid 
not impute any part of this delay to 
the persons — the cause slept merely 
because it was in chancery (laughter), 
where time was of litde or no account, 
and where the ignorant people would 
persist in saying and believing that 
there was a ^at deal of delay. £hr 
the way, if his motion were rejected, 
and it should be resolved that nothing 
ought to be done, he would make a 
suggestion, which would ];)erl]aps be 
more worthy of the attention of the 
house, to have a clapper appointed 
to the court, whose duty it should be 
to awaken die causes from time to 
time— every three, five, or seven 
years— or according to any other di- 
vision which shoiSd be consistent 
with the feelings of the court. In 
1815 the master made his report, to 
which of course there were excep- 
tions brought In 1818 they were 
heard, and part of the quesdon, as to 
the body of the cause, namely, as to 
the conveyance of the land, was de- 
cided. The exceptions were handed 
over to the high court of chanceiy. 
But time, whidi passed so easily m 
the court of chancery, was performing 
its usual operations out of doors: the 
windmill which was part of the sub* 
ject in contention, felt its influenee. 
This windmill ps^ed out of existence 
— it only lived in histoiy — it was to 
the cause what Troy was to ihe Iliad 
— it was for ever gone. (Laughter,) 
Should the diligent traveller seek for 
it, he might by zealous assiduity dis- 
cover the place where it once stood. 
But while the learned brotheriKX)d 
were waging their wordy war&re 
about it in 1818, it was level with 
the ground, and not worth the .paper 

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t»ARUAMENTARY DEBATES. 



used in rtn^^g^Unglbr theiigjhttoH 
by the siigaeious combatants. ^ (Much 
laughter.) It was not fiom him that 
this representation came-^though, of 
course, it could be nothing but the 
ignorance and folly of poor deluded 
wretches whidbi could bring them to 
say that there was delay in chanceiy 
*-^it was a cry from people out oif 
doors who knew nothing of the 
beauties and excellencies of the ju^ 
lisdiction. The ignorant people of 
Chichester had, however, »ud as 
much ; and ibev had fnuined a cari- 
cature, in which they contrived to 
throw ridicule imon the court of 
chancery through tne medium of this 
very wmdmill* He had seen the 
caricature. The right honourable 
gentleman oi>posite represented the 
people of Chichester in 1814, and 
could say whether or not they were 
ignorant, very ignorant— whether 
&y were purely Knotian. They were 
certainly not mtogether without in^ . 
vention. They l»d represented the 
windmill in utter decay, with em- 
blems of the causes appended,' which 
referred to the proceedings in chan- 
ceiy, and underneath was written 
*' Jdhuc Mb judioe lis e$U' (Loud 
lai^hter and cheers.) The right han» 
nod learned gentlemim had produced 
this very caricature in the proceed^ 
lags, which gave no small ^lucidatioii 
to the aigumeots for delav and post^ 
ponement, together with tbeh conse* 
qaenoesy which obtained in those 
cxMirts. (Cheers and laughter.) This 
w^ the &st act of the traffUcomedy. 
He begged the bouse to (M)servet]iat 
be advanced nothing which had not 
iat its basis arithn^c and the ac- 
cumulation of stubborn and undenia^ 
Ue facta. H/e would now proceed to 

S've them a i^iecimen or two from 
e taxed bill of costo which be held 
in his hand, and which Iiad been a«- 
thenticated by a sufficient tribunal ; 



and th^ would paiticularly pay at* 
tention to the circumstance, that tlie 
bill of costs related to excepti«m8» 
lyhich were merely interlocutory 
matter upon the fringe, as it were, of 
the cause ; and the items whieh he 
proposed to read, for the greater part 
occurred after the alignment, in wait- 
ing for the judgment It commenced 
in hilary teem, 1817. ^ July 6-^ 
Attendii^ cour^ exceplpoas in the 
paper, 10#. July 7, 9, 10^ 13, 14, 
.15, 16, 17, 18, 20, the Uke, with 
10«. each time. July 21, the like^ 
vthsxi the exoepticms were fully ar* 
sued, and the diancellor reserved 
his judgment, \L\ term fees ^dleU 
ten, U U 8d*' (Uusitfer.) Theie 
was a due proportion of fees to coun* ' 
sel, who were equally busv in seeing 
that nothing at all was done in the 
cause. (Chms, and la^gfater.) Tli» 
came *« Refresher to ommsd to spet 
juc^ment — attending him ;*--the iSee 
to another counsel ;'* and then, (this 
was in Michaelmas terms 1818), 
^* To very many attendances in couft 
.this term to get judgment, whtti.tbe 
lord chancelKnr frequently nromised 
it (laij^hter), but postponMlUs yoA^ 
ment. (Much lai^hter.) Term and 
fee letters, \L U 8d:*' ^'Eastetf 
teon, 1819: term fee and letfeeiSt 
exceptions in the r^ister's book for 
judgment. No prcttoediogs in the 
cause, U \i^ ^d,i attendance in 
court, 2/. f^ and this was all tint was 
(lone in this term; and so the dient 
got over the other terms, in 1819 and 

1820, until Easter term in 1821. 
(«' And very cheap too,'* said a voice 
^m the ministerial benche&l Veiy 
cheiqp, indeed; he was surpnsed to 
find the patient escape so easily--4t 
seldoif hawened in thut couit, \m 
believed. (Cheers.) •* Easter term* 

1821. It bein| absolutely necesBary 
that the loid chancellor's jut^graeiit 
fdwuld he obtained on tli« exceptions 

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PAHUAMENTARY DfiBATES. 



Ill 



to tbd iiidstar*8 tepoit, ivhich jii%« 
laent had been standing over £n>m 
July 1818.*' (Cheers and laughter.) 
^ Drawing brief to counsel to bring 
bis lordship's attention to the matter, 
two sheets." (Laughter.) ^* Attend* 
ing court when the exceptions were 
mentioiied, and the chancellor said 
he woold give his judgment on the 
7th, the first seal after term. At- 
tendiog accon&igly, when judgment 
was postponed to the second seal, 
19th instant— 19th, the like, when 
juc^ment was further postponed." 
(Lsoighter.) ** 21st, the like, (lav^ 
ter)—<< 22d, the like. (Loud laugh- 
ter.) ''Letters ^Term-fee in the 
case." ** Trinity term— attending 
oooit— judgment mentioned. Many 
attendances in this term, when judg- 
ment mentioned, but deferreA"— 
(Cheeis.) *• Michaelmas term, 1821. 
Attendinfi; court, when the chancellor 
pranused jiidgment, term-fee and let- 
ters." A!nd 90 it went on throi^h , 
hiUay, easter, and trinity term of 
1822, and not one step nearer the 
jadgineni than before. ''Michael'- 
mas term, 1825. Attending court, 
idien chancellor having said he wish- 
ed the merits to be rally aigued on 
both sidea again, case fully ^ne 
intD-^lSi; ioL't 25th, exceptions 
mentfemed, jud^nent posqfwned.'^ 
«« Easter term, 1823. Refrerfier to 
Coansel to get juc^mtfnt on the ex- 
ceptions; tnany attendances in court 
to get jndjpnent, when diancellor, 
on racmtiomngf postponed the same ; 
teaii4ee and lettei8^-<-no other pro- 
ceedings in the 'cause." (<< Hear," 
mdhS^^.) ''Trinity term, 1823, 
Refipesher to counsel to get judgment ; 
fitffliftiffg courts when chancellor so^ 
ieauUy promised his judgment on 
Thittsday next" (Lauehter.) "At- 
tencting aoooidingly, unien judgment 
further postponed to Tuesday, 1st 
J%," (Laughter.) «'July 1, at- 



tending court, when judgment giveiL 
and exceptions allowed." (Cheeisj 
Thus, for five entire years on the ex- 
ceptions alone, were these parties tied 
up at an expense of not len than 
200/!. this bemg all upoi;i die ftuige 
of the main ca8e,-^mere interk>co« 
tory proceedings, which left the ques** 
tion as to the principal matter un- 
touched. This was the second act 
of the piece: ths thixd remained for 
some time, he would not say how fiir 
distant. Up to this period, no st^ 
had been taken to get the fond out 
of the court. What was the reason ? 
Whose fault was it? Time was the 
offender. Was it miraculous that 
people should die, and that odiess 
shouki come af%er them who would 
forget all feeling of interest in it? 
The good people of Chichester must 
have some notions of this kind, or 
they must indeed be more Boaodaa 
than the choice of their representa* 
tive would lead him to bdieve — thqf 
naturally thoi^t, that if the begii^ 
ning and middle act had taken up 
thirty years, it would be only drama* 
tic ^r the next to take up another 
fifteen years. And thus they reach- 
ed a proximate probabihty that the 
whole fund would be Speedily swal- 
lowed up in that chaiybdis of chan-« 
ceiy, the dead fund« (Load cheerSi} 
And yet the simple people wouki 
talk of delay. Who was it that could 
be so blind and malignant as to men^ 
tion delay? Undoubtedly there coukl 
be no delay in chancery. Atallevenia 
there was a resdng place there for the 
suitor, from which he could look out 
and dwell in refleictioit upon the de^^ 
lightful situation upon which he 
stood. But no, there toold be no 
delay — there were no emanation* 
from that court but thoiie of equiqr» 
of peiseverinjg and tmfailing ^pevh 
dence— <^ wisdom, and of the asost 
rigfateoOB justice* To touch the ques« 

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tion more earnestly, let the house 
consider well the cases upon which 
he had dwelt Let casuistry elude— 
let bold and sturdy assertion overturn 
those statements if th^ could For 
himself, he declined aU credit which 
the house might be disposed to place 
in his integrity or his judgment, rest^ 
ing all, as it concerned the motion, 
upon the bare facts. He had been 
warned in a most emphatic manner 
of his signal ignorance upon the sub- 
ject He had acted with becoming 
circumspection. He had taken ex- 
traordinary pains in grounding his 
observations on sufficient truths. Here 
he stopped. He would not aggravate 
the demerits of that ignorance with 
which he had been juSly reproach- 
ed, by proposing for a remedy any 
scheme of his own; and, in plain 
sincerity, he could not undertake to 
advise any thing, even though he 
should be asked, without having in 
the first place heard the ar^ments^ 
and suggestions of all parties, and 
without ttie use, aflerwards of the best 
li^ts which could be brought to clear 
the subject. A committee was the 
measure which of all others was most 
likely to meet with the views of all 



The first attention of the house 
undoubtedly should be given to that 
question which had been touched 
upon by the honourable member for 
Midhurst, the stamp duties. Let them 
but consider what was the amount of 
the practical evil resulting from that 
^evous load laid upon the transac- 
tions of justice. He would give them 
one criterion to guide their judgment, 
taken fVom the issuing of decrees from 
the registrar's office. It was well 
known to the professional gentlemen 
about him, that the mandatory part 
of a decree, as it would also be found 
in the returns now made to the house, 
was comprised in a very brief com- 



pass, and that, too, in cases which 
were of extraordinary extent in the 
pleadings. But by the practice of 
the court, the copy taken from the 
register recited all the previous pro- 
ceedings. So that he knew of one 
particmar case in which the decree 
was set forth in ninety-four sides, 
most of which must have been idle 
verbiage, as six only were relative to 
the mandate of the decree. For the 
use of the other parts, he need only 
say that the whole of the inatters in 
question were stated, in the first in- 
stance, in the bill and answer, and 
were already on the records di the 
court Lord Kenyon, when he re- 
buked a party once for introducii^ 
surplusage into an instrument, said 
that every word cost the suitor one 
shilling. It was literally true tfiat 
eveiy folio cost 1^ Every one of 
these sides must be fumished to the 
victorious party, which,with the whole 
expense or exemplifications and co- 
pies, amounted to a conaderable grie- 
vance, and was a very common sub- 
ject of complaint If the honourable 
member for Midhurst thou^ it ad- 
viseable to introduce a motion for the 
reduction of stamp dudes, let him 
proceed boldly, nor dread that he 
would be left in a feeble miiiority. 
The complaint of the chai]^ in the 
registrar's office had sometimes been 
met by an assertion that their hi^ 
amount was caused by the stamp 
duties. He had, however, been in- 
formed, and he believed his informa- 
tion was correct, that the charges for 
proceedings in the registrar's office 
were in general nine times as linidi 
as the stamp duties ; for the^ were 
charged at the rate of three stallings 
per sheet, when the stamp duty was 
only fourpence per sheet He had 
been furnished with the paiticDlan 
of one case which he would mention 
heie» as iUustmtive of the enonnoos 
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lonoorit of the proceedings in these 
ofiioes. It ^was in a cause of 
«*Chiniiery and Chinnery," where 
the widow of one of the pardes was 
his administratrix, and was admitted 
by all the parties concerned to be 
entitled to a sum of 45/. This sum, 
sSthough the cause, as related to her, 
was entirely at an end, she could not, 
dare not receive ; she was advised by 
her solicitor not to receive it, because 
the expenses which must attend her 
procimng an order for it would ex- 
ceed its total amount And yet, with 
the kno^edge of such fiacts as these, 
they were told that there was nogrief^ 
no suffering, no delay in this court 
He did not, however, upon this, any 
more than upon the other topics, pro- 
nounce any opinion ; he only sub- 
mitted that it proved the necessity of 
an inquiry. 

The next subject he should pro- 
ceed to was wliat occurred upon a 
report from the master's office. When 
a decree had been pronounced by the 
court that an account should be taken, 
the object of it was that the master 
should inform the court of the exact 
state of the propei^ the subiect of 
die suit, and particularly when it 
happened to have belonged to a 
party deceased. What uie court 
wanted was this accurate account, 
not a statement of all the proceedings 
dnt might be taken in the master's 
oflice. But instead of such an ac- 
count, he was credibly informed that 
the report contained, not only what 
was the total amount of the deceased's 
property, but a voluminous schedule 
maae out by the executor, beginning 
with the most valuable part of the 
property, and proceeding with a most 
absurd minuteness, down even to a 
pair of slippers. This schedule was 
nrequently of enormous bulk ; it was 
required to be sworn to, and the ex- 
pense of the report, increased by this 

1824.] 



means, of^en amounted tb ten, twenty, 
thirty, and even fifly pounds. l%e 
only object of this multiplication of 
statements, totally immaterial and 
irrevalent, was to vex and delay, and 
burden the suitors. He wished not 
at this moment to express any opi- 
nion upon this practice. He had 
no douot the masters mieht find it a 
convenient mode of discharging the 
duly imposed upon them by the court, 
ana they would continue to do so un- 
til the house or the country should 
think fit to interfere. To expect any 
reformation in this and simikr prac- 
tices, th^ must begin with the court 
itself. To suppose that it would 
be effected without any such inter- 
ference, would be a theory more vain 
than that notable folly of the hair- 
brained knight who iancied that his 
'squire would scourge himself to death 
as soon as his back was turned. The 
country must wait till he knew not 
what time, if they waited until a re- 
form in die practice of the court 
should be b^m by the court of 
chancery itself: 

The next inconvenience to which 
he wished to call the attention of 
the house, was the time which had 
been wasted in the master's office. 
He did not state this without au- 
thority in black and white, because 
he knew well the disadvantageous 
consequences which must attend a 
contradiction here, (whatever effect 
it might have elsewhere), if any such 
could be given. It seemed that the 
warrants granted by the masters in 
chancery were somewhat similar to 
the judges' summonses at law. It 
was the practice of the master's 
office to issue four of these summon- 
ses for every hour. It often happened 
that there were four or five solicitors 
concerned for the various parties in 
the causes in which these warrants 
were issued ; and if they all attended 
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the jostle and bustle which ensued^ 
and the wordy war&re which some- 
times was on the point of assum- 
ing a more practiod shape, from 
those who were quarrelling for the 
pre-audience, rendered the time al- 
lotted to the business of the warrant 
inadequate for disposing of it Thus, 
though the attendance upon these 
warrants was often totally unprofita- 
ble for the chent, it was not so for 
the sohcitors, who never failed to 
chaige as they were entided for their 
attendances. When he spoke of the 
profit of the solicitors, he wished, for 
tbe sake of that respectable body of 
men, to be understood that he did not 
suppose they had any interest in pre- 
venting the correction of the abuses 
of which he complained. Eveiy man 
knew dial they were called upon to 
m^ke very heavy advances m the 
earliest stages of the causes, for office 
copies of the several proceedings, and 
fees to counsel. .The longer, there- 
fore, the decision of the causes was 
protracted, the longer they would be 
kept out of their mon^. This must 
be the cause of one of'^ two things — 
either it must be supposed that the 
sohcitors were content with the plea- 
sure of working for nothing, or that 
they made themselves amends for the 
postponement, by chai^ng to their 
clients more than the stnct rule of the 
court would permit If it could be 
supposed that they were so scrupu- 
lously, so romantically honest, beyond 
all belief— even this was no reason 
why, they should be thought anxious 
to support this system of delay ; and, 
for his own part, he thoueht it just 
and necessary to explain, mat it was 
by no means his intention to impute 
to the solicitors of the court any sinis- 
ter inclination to favour that system. 
Having thus treated some of the de- 
tails, he should proceed to the lead- 
ing subjects, and those of a more 



general nature, which the further they . 
were investigated, would prove stul 
more the necessity of an inquiry into 
and a remedy for them. «' Not," to 
use the word^of the late lament&l sir 
Samuel Romilly, *' a remedy at the 
suggestion of official persons, and 
the fnends of the ministers^ as in the 
case of the appointment of the vice- 
chancellor ; but a remedy to be pie* 
scribed by the universal opinion of 
all men, and an inquiiy at which the 
information of all who were able to 
afford it, in every branch of the pro- 
fesdon, should be brought to Dear 
upon the question.'* 

He now came to a subject, the 
very name of which was truly omi- 
nous — the dead fund. Tnis, it 
seemed, consisted of 1,200,000^ It 
was true that what had hitherto been 
done with respect to this fund had 
been done imder the sanction of an 
act of parliament ; and althoi^ it 
could not therefore be now undone^ 
there was no reason why it might 
not be more justly treated in future. 
He imderstood the claimants weie in 
many instances ready to come for- 
ward It was not like the undaimed 
dividends at the bank, where pecsons 
in possession of stock died without 
having communicated that i^ to 
any of their firiends, and it was 
therefore impossible to find out the 
persons really entided to that pro- 
perty. In the case of the dead fondy 
the claimants generally knew veiy. 
well what they were entitled to; bui^ 
as in the case of Chinneiy they were 
so traversed and thwarted by the 
delays and expense of the court of 
chancery, that they rdinquished in 
despair the attempt of preferring 
their claims, awed by the difficulty 
of establishing them. This, theii» 
it would not l^ denied, deserved the 
qiost deliberate considenrti<Hi — whe- 
ther it would not be expedient to 

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adrot some mode by which relief 
mi^ be given to these claimants. 
It was a duty which the government 
owed almost to common honesfy, that 
a public notice should be given to the 
claimants that they mig^illnow what 
ronained to be divided among them. 
Again^ on the subject of proceed- 
ings in bankruptcy. Numerous re- 
presentations bad been made with 
respect to sepandng the jurisdiction 
in this tegpect from the lord chan- 
cdlor*s du^. There was this reason 
for it among odiers — that it was o£ 
comparativehr modem ongin. He 
knew it had been stated by that 
lamented individual to whom he had 
before alltded (sir Samuel Romilly), 
that it had commenced with loid 
Haodwicke. it was true the statute 
upon which die interfenence of the 
lord chancellor in matters of bank- 
roptcy was founded, passed in the 
reign of Heniy VIII., and its powers . 
erteiMted by a statute of queen £li- 
nbeth; bat it appeared thsA no 
chancellor had ever exerdsed the 
power given by those statutes until 
the time of lord chancellor Notting- 
ham. From the latter period, during 
the offices of three cfaanoellors, there 
were not twenty instances of any in- 
terference up to the time when lord 
Ifeidwicke became chanoeUor. 

If itwere true, as had been so often 
stated when complaints were made 
of the delay of the proceedings 
in chanceiY, that the court was 
too much loaded with business and 
oveitbne, how necessary was it diat 
an inquiry should be made withdut 
loss of time into the expediency of 
Severn^ lixis jurisdiction ftom the 
other powers of the chancellor ? He 
now came to ihe subject of the ap- 
peals in chancery. By the theory 
of the Gonstitudon, every individual 
of the house of lends, where these 



appeals were made, was suj^posed to 
possess a sufficient portion of legal 
knowledge, as to make him a com- 
petent judge of the matters which 
the case appealed against contained. 
That this was a fiction of the coarsest 
description, could not be denied; 
and, hke every other fiction of this 
descrintion, the fardier it departed 
from ttie truth, unless the result an- 
swered the piupose for which it was 
invented, the more flagcaut was the 
absurdity which it crated. As the 
lord chancellor was, generally speak- 
ing, the most learned law lord in the 
house of peers, as well as one of the 
most ancient and weighty, the appeal 
was, in truth, to the chancellor tnere, 
against ia decision pronounced by the 
lord chancellor in some other place* 
(Hear, hear.) His learned friend had 
tEdked of this system being an appeal 
firom Caesar to Csasar, or it was, if he 
would allow him to change the ex^ 
pression, an appeal from Philip to 
rl^p. Now^ in the appeal from 
Philip drunk to Philip sooer, there 
was some reason, because that mo- 
narclr, although he was when drunk 
lemaxkable for the most brutal cruelty 
and rage, was, when sober, an ex- 
ample of wisdon^ and moderation* 
But if the appeal had been from 
Philip sober to Philip sober, it would 
then have been a marvellous ab- 
surdity. With respect to tbe opera^ 
tion of the system, it had been more 
correctly described by no one than 
by the right hon. gendeman (Mr. 
Caning) , who said diat it was drag* 
ging the patient twice through the 
same sort of discipline. (Hear.) It 
appeared that when the vice-«han- 
oeUor was appointed, there were 141 
causes in the paper ; in the last year 
there were 109 ; and now thc»e were 
104 appeals set down before the lord 
So that litde goodseem- 
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ed to have been done in the way of 
despatch by the exertions of the lajst 
mentioned officer. If this, too, were 
the proportion of causes, it might 
reasonably be asked, why the inter- 
mediate appeal could not be spared, 
and the causes at once carried to the 
house of lords. Upon this point, 
also, he repeated what he said pefbre 
— he did not wish to express his own 
opinion, but he urged it upon the 
house as an additional reason to those 
which he had before stated for the 
deliberation and inquiry which he 
thought was demanded. Another 
point which he would mention was 
me expediency of separating the lord 
chancellor's political from his judicial 
character. In the first place, it was 
highly injurious to the public, that 
when that noble and learned jud^ 
for the time being, had before hmi 
die consideration of all the interests 
of the community, as a judge, he 
should be called away at any hour, 
however inconvenient, to assist at the 
public councils, and decide upon the 
interests of the people in gross. , In- 
terrupted thus, as under the existing 
^stem eveiy chancellor must be, in 
the midst of an argument, let his at- 
tention and his memory be what they 
might, for^tfulness must ensue ; and 
not only time would be lost, but per- 
haps the interests of the suitors might 
be still more seriously injured when- 
ever the judge should come back 
again to resume the ai^ument, which 
had been interrupted by the pursuit 
of avocations, and the consideration 
of subjects, so entirely different But 
this objection lay upon the surface : 
he would go deeper, and would ask 
if that unmeasured panegyric which 
had been bestowed upon a certain 
part of the constitution were deserved, 
how it could be denied that the po- 
litical and judicial character of the 




lord chancellor ought to be imme- 
diately separated ? It had been often 
said, that the effectiii^ the indepen- 
dence of the judges was the consum- 
mation of human wisdom. Now, if 
this were so, and he did not deny it, 
for what reason, he asked, was it that 
a principle which applied to all the 
other judges, shoula not be made al- 
so to apmy to the first judge of the 
land ? For what reason should not 
the same careful protection which had 
been extended to preserve the inde- 
and reputation of other 
reach also to tihat judge who, 
le thought unfitly, continued to 
unite with me character of a judge, 
other duties which were incompatible 
with it. Let, however, wiser men 
decide upon this point He (Mr. 
Williams) only suggested the matters 
which he thought called for delibera- 
tion and inquiry ; and that these were 
absolutely necessary, was all thai he 
had undertaken to say. He was now 
about to bring to a close the observa- 
tions with wBch he had troubled the 
house. He had endeavoured to 
avoid, as much as possible, the ob- 

Clons which on a former occasion 
been urged against him. It was 
then said, or if not said, it was inti- 
mated that he had drawn all his in- 
formation from the same source, — 
that his facts all came from one single 
ofSce, or as, in compliment to his 
honourable friend's latinity, he 
would call it offidncu Now he couid 
assure the . house and his learned 
friend, not only that he had none 
from that office, but that he had no 
two from the same office. When, 
on a fonner occasion, he had thought 
fit to mention the name of that no- 
ble and learned lord who for the last 
quarter, of a century had ruled over 
die law, and (as his hon. fiiend, the 
member for Winchelsea sBoAy and 

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^Rras but feebly contradicted) over the 
country too, what he said met with 
a veiy strange reception. On the 
one hand it was contended, that he 
need not have gone at sjch a length 
into detail ; and on the other hand it 
was said, whenever he bore testi- 
mony to the talent and learning of 
that noble and learned lord, th^ it 
was with some sinister intentitm — 
that his compliments were designed 
to cover the sdDg which lav, like 
the point of an epigram, in the tail. 
His learned friend, then the attor- 
ney-general, now the noble and 
leaoned lord Gifford, told him not to 
suppose that any compliment of his 
could add to the well-earned fame of 
the lord chancellor. He (Mr. Wil- 
liams) had therefore resolved to be 
cautious now, and not to incur a si- 
milar rebuke. (Hear.) From the 
oonunenoement of his speech until 
the present moment, he had cauti- 
ously abstained from paving any 
such compliments, as well as from 
mentioning that noble and learned 
knxi, further than was incidentally 
necessary ; nor did he intend to do 
80 in future. If) therefore, the same 
sort of dexterous tactic should again 
be played off 'upon him by some 
honourable gentlemen, it would not 
have the merit of novelty, nor the 
excuse of being founded on fact As 
fiu* as he had been able to understand 
the bearings of this question, he could 
not understand what objection could 
possibly exist to afford the inquiry 
which he asked for. In the first 
place, to take the supposition that this 
mquiry, which the country was en- 
tided to have, and which it would 
demand, had been granted ; and that 
up<Hi such in(]uiry it had been found 
that the machinery of the system of 
die court of chancery was perfect, but 
that the agency was faulty ; then the 
most satiffiactory conclusion would 



have been arrived at, for it woidd be 
much easier to change the men than 
to alter the system. But if, on the 
contraiy, it should appear that the 
machinery alone was imperfect, then 
another inquiry must be proceeded 
in as to the causes of that imper- 
fection ; and, these discovered, then 
all the wisdom of the legislature 
must be directed to the task of pro- 
viding a remedy for them. If, tnen, 
it should be found, that although the 
imperfections were known to exist, it 
was impracticable to approach them 
so nearly as to alter them, then every 
man would have a reasonable and so- 
lid cause for patience, and must bear 
as well as he could, the evils for 
which no remedy could be prescrib- 
ed. If, on the other hand, this should 
be denied, and an attempt should be 
made to shut out all inquiry, solely 
for the purpose of screening the 
chancellor, he would gain nothing 
by such an attempt in the estimation 
of the countiy, and the house would 
lose in it infinitely. (Hear, hean) 
But allowing that the noble and 
learned lord was well entitled, and 
for aught he (Mr. Williams) knew, 
he might be well entitled to all the 
encomiums they had so plentifully 
bestowed upon him on former oc- 
casions, he would beg them to per- 
mit him to put one question to them. 
If under the management of a man 
so perfecdy wise as the noble and 
learned lord was represented to be, 
such bitter firuits of delay and ex- 
pense had been produced, what must 
the system be that had borne them ? ' 
Let him ask them also to consider in 
what a luckless condition would the 
people of England be, if without any 
amelioration, this system should be 
handed over, at some remote period, 
to a chancellor of inferior talents and 
virtue, since all men could not be the 
best ? It would be seen that the more 

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die present agents were extolled, the 
more die system would be depress- 
ed ; and tms consideiation fiimished 
the best ground for inquiry — tliis was 
the foundation of his motion. When 
he had broi^ht forward this motion 
last year, he had been told, among 
other things, that it was at too late a 
periodofthe session; he had remedied 
this fault now, by bringing it for- 
ward thus early, and that, too, at a 
time which was more particularly 
convenient for its discussion, on ac- 
count of the absence of all pressure 
of other public affairs. Not that he 
meant to say this sul^ect ought, for 
its importance, to yield to any other, 
but that as the chief business of 
gentlemen since the commencement 
of the session had been to contem- 
plate each other, there could be no 
reason why this question ought not 
now to be entered on. Ths peo- 
ple of England eveiywhere thought, 
and did not fail to express that opi- 
nion, that they had a right to csJl 
for an inquiiy upon this topic. 
Would any honourable gentleman 
who had constituents deem it expe- 
dient to gainsay this right? The 
labours of that house, to which the 
people were entitled, could not be 
Detter spent than in such an inquiry. 
He was not, however, sanguine 
enoi^ to think, that because so 
many, and such powerful reasons 
existed for it, it would therefore be 
entered upon ; but he knew that if 
this was not the day on which the 
inquiry would be obtained, that it 
was not very for distant ; and he had 
no doubt tliat' if the house now re- 
fused it, they would be compelled 
'ere long to grant it. He was per- 
fectly aware how inveterate were the 
habits, how robust the prejudices 
against which this motion had to 
contend. He knew too well how 
often and by what sort of men this 



attempt had been made before, and 
bad failed, to suppose that he sfaonkl 
now succeed to the extent to which 
it was entitled. He bore in mind, 
that the most powerful and resohile 
man this country ever prodooed — 
he could mean no other than the 
protector, Oliver Cromwell, who, it 
was said in Whitlocke^s Memorials, 
caused a petition to be presented to 
the parliament, pjrayii^ ** that speedy 
consideration might oe had of the 
great oppressions by reason of die 
mukiphcity of unnecessary laws, widi 
their intricacies and delays, which 
tend to die profit of some particular 
men, but much to the expense and 
damage of the whole.** And jA diis 
attempt, made by this man when he 
was at die zenith and in the pLenitode 
of his dominion, and in days when 
lawyers were fewer, and lord chan- 
cellors not so powerful, was made in 
vain. He referred his failure, as he 
(Mr: WUliams] was inclined to think, 
not to any defect in the grounds upon 
which he proposed it, but to die cha- 
racter and quality of the resistance 
which was made to it He migbt 
suppose him to have said, ^ I have 
met my king in die field, and have 
conquered him ; the church I have 
new modelled, and cast at my i^ea- 
sure ; the people I have kept down, 
and sdll hold m subjection ; and yet 

these lawyers*' — Cromwell did 

not perhaps use the epithet whidi he 
meant to have bestowed upon di^n, 
because he was too great a hypocrite 
to swear — "these lawyers can baffle 
me ; against them all my attempts 
are abortive, and by diem sJone I am 
defeated." 

The honourable member then, 
thanking die house for die patience 
with which they had heard him,con- 
eluded by moving ** For a commit- 
tee to inquire into the delay and ex- 
pense of the court of chancery, and 

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die causes thereof." (Loud and con- 
tmued cheering fbUowed the condu-. 
noD of this speech.) 

Mr. Peel, m commencing the ob- 
servaidons which he was about to ad- 
dress to the house» professed his total 
incompetence to follow the hon. gen- 
tleman who had just sat down, into 
the details which he had ^ven, and 
into which indeed none but a profes- 
sional man could be qualified to en- 
ter. Ife ^uld therefore leave it to 
his hon. and learned friends on the 
right and left to undertake that task, 
if thqr thought fit ; or if, indeed they 
were prepared to reply to cases, of 
which, whether they had any previ- 
otB knowledge he knew not In his 
(Mr. Ped's) view, however the en- 
trance into such details was not ne- 
cessary. (Hear from the opposition 
benches, re-echoed from those of the 
ministenal side of the house.) At 
least, if it ware necessary, it appear- 
ed to him that some previous intima- 
tion should have been dven of the 
details, in order that the house might 
have been enabled to come to a com- 
petent judgment on them, and that 
compile justice might be done. 
(Hear, hear, from the opposition.) 
}& reason for following m the de- 
bate now, was, that as the subject 
had occupied die attention of his 
majesty*s government for a consider- 
able periwl, the house mi^ht be in 
possession of the view which they 
had entertained of it (The cheers 
were now repeated). He could as- 
sure the noble lord who had inter- 
nipted the debate in so irregular a 
manner, (we could not learn to 
whom it was that the honourable 
member alluded), that he would 
not prevent him from delivering his 
opinions on this subject. (Cheers.) 
Professing, therefore, no intention to 
touch upon the details, he should 
proceed with the general discussion. 



He gave the honourable and learned 
senUeman (Mr. Williams) great cre- 
dit for the moderation and ability 
with which he had introduced his 
motion; but when the honourable 
and learned gentleman said, that this 
house had upon former occasions de- 
nied the existence of any delay in the 
court of chancery, he [m. Peel) mnst 
say that he had never heard any such 
denial. Dunne the last twelve years 
the attention of parliament had been 
repeatedly called to this subject, and 
it had been repeatedly admitted that 
some remedy was necessary. When 
the vice-chancellor's bill was under 
the consideration of the house, was 
not there heard the same complaint 
of delay in the proceedings of chan- 
cery that was now made ? So, again, 
when the appellate jurisdiction was 
nnder the deliberation of Parliament, 
was it ever denied that there were in- 
dividual cases of great hardsliip ari- 
sing from the debys of chancery? 
(Hear.) He, for one, was not con- 
fident enough to stand up and deny 
the fact of 3ie delay. (Hear.) He 
admitted that to the complaints that 
were heard the answer must be ex- 
pticidy, that the delay was great 
To the question put by the hon. and 
learned gent opposite, therefore he 
was not bold enough to g^ve such a 
reply as that hon. and learned gent 
seemed to expect He the rather 
made this admission, because he was 
prepared to contend and to prove that 
such delay was not to be imputed to 
any body as matter of crimination. 
He could adduce for it other causes, 
which would demonstrate to hon. 
gentlemen, if they would give him 
meir attention but for a veiy short 
time, that the delay was to be attri- 
buted to an increase of business in 
the court of chancery, with which, 
under present circumstances, no in- 
tellectioJ and no physical strength 

could 



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Qoukl entirely cope. (Hear, hear, 
from the oppositioii.) Having ad- 
mitted the delay, and being, indeed, 
quite unable to deny it, his next ob- 
ject would be to prove that the cause 
to which it was to be traced vras the 
enormous increase of business, of 
which he spoke. If any body wovdd 
compare the amount of busmess in 
the court of chancery at this period 
with its amount of business 60 or 
70 years ago, he would find (without 
any veiy minute information upon 
the malter)that apriorh the presump- 
tion must be that the business of the 
court had immoderately increased. 
In truth, it was imposssible that the 
population of the kingdom should 
nave increased in the ratio it had done, 
tbnt itshould have about doubled since 
1760, without causing a vast addition 
to the business of chancery. Could 
any body deny that that addition was 
maonly owing to the increase of po- 

Sulation ? Let the home look also at 
le increase which had taken place 
in the same interval of time in fund- 
ed property, for example, (a species 
of property that, he was informed, 
peculiarly mduced an augmentation 
of the business of chancery), they 
would find it to be in proportion to 
die increased population. I^ow, from 
the peculiar nature of suits rela- 
tive to personal!^, funded property 
ori^ated many more suits than pro- 
perty that was real. Undoubtedly, 
men, the fair presumption was, that 
since the time of lord Hardwicke, 
sixty or seventy years since, the po- 
pulation of the empire hs[d so m- 
creased as of necessity to increase the 
business of chanceiy. Let the house 
observe how that presumption was 
fortified and confirmed by some de- 
tails that he would very briefly sub- 
mit to them ; and seeing that the 
hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. 
y^iUiams) had dwelt ^omucl1 and so 



foidUy on the importanoe offiguieft 
and facts, when he calledtheatteatiop 
of the house to those details into which 
he so largely entered, and by which he 
hadexcitedso much merriment in the 
house, he (Mr. Peel) did hope tha^ 
hon. gentlemen would show so mudi 
Bsdmfiss to him, in his turn, as to listen 
attentively to a few facts, by which 
he proposed to establish the position 
he had assumed. And, first, he would 
take " an account of the orders made 
upon hearing lunadc ptetitions," du- 
nng three separate periods. Itshould 
be observed, that he proposed to take 
his data from documents thatVere 
already laid before the house. They 
were appended to the reports made 
by a committee, appointed by their 
house, for the purpose of inquiring 
into these matters. 

It was very well known, that a 
highly important part of the business 
of dianoery arose upon discussions 
on lunatic petitions. Durii^ the 
chancellorship of lord Hardwicke» 
fixnn 1737 to 1746, the total num- 
ber of orders, made upon lunatic pe- 
titions was 484. During a similar 
interval of 10 years, the number of 
nmilar orders made by lord Eldon, 
firom the year 1801 to 1810, was 
1,139, btmg an increase of more 
than double as contrasted with the 
first of these periods; for it was in the 
poportion of nearly 1,200 to 500. 
But in the 10 years elapsing between 
1814 and 1823 the number of or- 
ders upon lunatic petitions bv lord 
Eldon was no less than 2,531; so 
that the present lord chancellor had 
made five times the number of orders 
that lord Hardwicke had made in a 
corresponding term of years. (Hear, 
hear.) Now it was to be remarked, 
that he (Mr. Peel) was not so much 
instancing this as a proof of the 
quantity of business to be transacted 
in the court of chancery, as in the 

way 



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way of explanation of the delay that 
had been unputed. When the hon. 
and learned gentleman unputed de- 
lay to the proceedings of chancery, 
he had said, indeed, that he meant 
no attack upon personal character. 
But he (Mr. Peel) was very sure that 
the hon. member would not deny 
that his object in calling the atten- 
tion of tlie house to the various pa- 
pers and statements that he had read 
was, that the house might draw this 
inference, namely, that the delay in 
question was actually attributable to 
his (Mr. Peel's) noble and learned 
friend at the head of that court. 
(Hear, hear, and expressions of as- 
sent from Mr. Williams.) The hon. 
and learned gentleman said '< to be 
sure ;" if "to be sure" was his an- 
swer, he (Mr. Peel) could only say 
he felt the more gratified in his po- 
sition, that the business of the court 
had increased to an enormous extent 

** Appeals to the house of lords" 
had created another very important 
duty, which had devolved ufK)n the 
loid chancellor. In the ten years 
fiom 1750 to 1760, the number of 
these appeals was 170 ; in the ten 
years from 1760 to 1770, their num- 
ber was 272. In the ten years from 
1801 to 1810, they actually amount- 
ed to 492 ; so that the number of ap- 
peals from 1801 to 1810, a period of 
ten years, was ecjual to the number 
of appeals heard m the whole twenty 
years that elapsed between 1750 and 
1770. 

Now, another very heavy branch 
of duty was produced by the num- 
ber of commissions of bankrupt, up- 
on the issue of which it was for the 
lord chancellor to determine. From 
1770 to 1779, the average number 
of these commissions of bankrupt 
was 709 in each year ; from 1790 to 
1800, they increased to the number 
of 1,000 annually ; but during the 



last twelve years they had au^ented 
to 2,000 per annum ; that is to say, 
that comparing the two periods, 1 790 
to 1800, and 1810 to 1822, they had 
doubled during the latter : and thus 
another proof was furnished of the 
enormous increase of business in the 
court of chancery, and especially of 
that which was to be performed by 
the lord chancellor. j(Hear.) 

But he now turned to another head 
of business; and this was connected 
with " the nimiber of bills filed, con- 
cerning orders made, &c." and it ap- 
peared that there were filed, in the 
years 1800, 1,445 bills; 1820, 
2,071; 1823, 2,327; thus showing, 
again, an increase in 1823, as oom- 
{«red with the number in 1800, of 
nearly double, in the ninnber of bills 
filed m chancery. (Hear.) 

Another most important thing to. 
be observed at this part of his state- 
ment, and a matter to which he 
craved the most serious attention of 
the house, was the amount of pro- 
perty belonging to suitors lodged in- 
the office of tl^ accountant-general. 
In the year 1740, the total amount of 
balances, in money, in stock, and se- 
curities, in the hands of the account- 
ant-general of the court of chancery,, 
was 1 ,290,000/. In the year 1820, 
these deposits amounted to the sum* 
of 34,000,000/. (Loud cries of *«hear, 
hear.") 

Now, in respect to the extraordi- 
nary increase in these sums of mo- 
ney, he well knew it might possibly 
be argued that the very amount of 
monies in the hands of the account- 
ant-general was one effect of the de- 
lays of chancery. (Cheers fipom the 
opposition.) He was aware this ar- 
gument might be used by hon. gen- 
uemen opposite, though it might be 
very difficnilt to ascertain what por- 
tion of such monies was accumulated 
by delay, and what was attributa- 



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ble to the growing wealth of the 
country. 

With a view to elucidate this sub- 
ject, he would select different periods 
of 20 years each, and he should prove 
that it had been the tendency of 
events to double these sums in each 
successive period. 

Beginning, then, with the year 
1740 ; it seemed that in that year the 
amount in the accountant-general^s 
hands was 1,290,000/. 

In the 20 years ending 1760 it 
had mcreased to 3,000,000/. 

In the next 20 years, ending 1780, 
it liad doubled, and more than dou- 
bled, what it was in 1760, for it was 
7,000,000/. 

Now, for the increase of these sums 
during these periods, the present lord 
chanc^or was certainly not respon- 
sible. 

But, between 1780 and 1800, they 
were augmented from 7,000,000/Lto 
17,000,000/. (Hear.) 

From 1800 to 1820, they increased 
to 34,000,000/. (Hear.) 

Now, surely he had broii^ con- 
clusive proof of the proposition that 
he had been endeavouring to establish 
— that, from whatever cause, the in- 
crease of business in the court of 
chancery, of late years, was too great 
for human stren^ to cope with. 
Taking the five criteria which he had 
assumed, — ^lunatic petitions, orders, 
bills filed, appeals, bankrupt com- 
missions, — he tho\:^ht it impossible 
to be denied that durii^ the present 
chancellor^p the business of chan- 
cery had increased four or five fold. 

when delay, therefore, was imput- 
ed to the noble and learned lord who 
presided over it, the house wasboimd 
m justice to him, and on everyprinci- 
ple of common justice, to compare 
the quantity of business which had 
devolved upon thatnoble lord with the 
quantity transacted by his predeces- 



sors. When he (Mr. Peel) considered 
what were the claims upon die at- 
tention and time of that noble and 
learned lord, and what was the se- 
vere nature of the manifold business 
that he had to perform, he did hope 
that it would not be attributed to the 
feeling of private firiendship and re- 
spect that he entertained for that no- 
ble lord, but that the house would 
give him credit for a sincere and dis- 
passionate declaration, when he pro- 
tested that he was astonished, not at 
the quantity of business that was left 
undone by his noble firiend, but that 
human strength and abifity could ef^ 
feet so much. (Cheers from the 
treasury benches.) Let them only 
consider this fact, that in the course <^ 
ten years there were presented to that 
learned lord 2,000 bankruptcy peti- 
tions annually, and it was reaUy an- 
noying to reflect upon the thousanda 
of commissions that he had to issue; 
When a man considered the amount, 
extent, and importance of the dif- 
ferent matters that had been enu- 
merated, let him ask himself, how it 
was possible for any one individual 
to get throt^ such a multiplicity of 
business ? 

But let hon. gentlemen look at the 
attendance of the lord chancellor in 
the house of lords. On this point 
he would cite two cases only, the 

What was the natrn^ of this noble 
lord's attendance in the Berkeley 
case ? The committee of privil^es 
in the house of lords sate, in one 
year, upon the Berkeley case, lor 
some time, and from 10 o'clock till 4 
every day. The number of days up- 
on which, in that single case, the 
noble and learned lord was called on 
to attend was 34. (Hear.) 

The Roxburghe case required of 
the same noble individual 36 days* 
attendance for the hearing ; the ap- 
peal 



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peal lasdng 44 days altogether : so 
tint two cases alone called for the 
k>fd chaiicellor's attendance on 70 
days. (Hear.) What was his noble 
and learned friend to do ? How was 
he to conduct himself on such oc- 
casions ? Was he to reftise his at- 
tendance in the conunittee of privi- 
leges, and to withdraw himself? And 
if he duly attended his duty in the 
house of lords, was it matter of sur- 
prise that delays should arise in the 
proceedii^ before him in the court 
of chancery ; orwas it to be imputed 
to him that lamentable and injurious 
consequences sometimes en£ued to 
suitors on that account? He (Mr. 
Peel) had been informed inponj^ood 
aothority, and indeed by Mr. Giw- 
per, (an officer well known for his 
intelligenoe and experience to all 
who were in the habit of attending 
in the house of lords), that in the 
Rozboighe case one counei akme 
occupi^ the lords — how many hours 
did hen. gentlemen suppose ? (Cries 
of bear.) When they blalned the 
noble and learned lord for delay, they 
were bound to inquire whether it was 
not just as possible that counsel might 
hove some share in producing that 
delay. (Hear.) He (Mr. Peel) ob- 
served those cheers, and well knew 
&at he was at present placed in 
something like the situation of Oliver 
Oromwell, who confesses that he 
had ^Hmd quarrelling with lawyers 
a somewhat dangerous engagements 
(La^iter.) But when delay was 
diaiged elsewhere, let it be Imown, 
tictt a counsel, whose name he really 
did not know, (hear), occupied the 
committee of privileges in the house 
of lords — ^not 18 minutes, as some 
might suppose, — nor yet 1 8 hours, as 
others w^ould anticipate, — but, 18 
days. (Hear, hear.) Incredible as 
the fact might seem, it not only ap- 
1 upon the minutes of evidence 



taken before the house of lords, bnt 
h rested upcm the information, also, 
oftheiromcer, Mr. Cowper. (Hear.) 
If there was any mistake in the 
statement, not only Mr. Cowper, but 
the minutes were in error. 

What he (Mr. Peel) had now 
stated appeared to him to amount to 
a complete vindication of the Vetd 
chancellor, as for as there was any 
question of delay on his part, and 
seemed to demonstrate that such was 
the present state of business in !be 
court of chancery, that it was impos- 
sible for abilities, however great, or 
a constitution, however strong, to 
bear the fatigues which the countiy 
imposed upon him who presided 
over it (Hear.) He (Mr. Peel) was 
proceeding step by step, and was al« 
ways glad, in the course of an aigu- 
ment, to hear how for those to whom 
he might happen to be opposed con- 
curred with him ; and he dierefore 
hailed the cheers that proceeded fit>m 
the other side with pleasure. If gai- 
tiemen on that side would admit that 
what he had to-night stated was a 
complete vindication of the hon. and 
learned judge, he (Mr. Peel) would 
admit to them that they had made out 
a case of complete justification for in* 
qtiiry and consideration, in resqpectto 
his court It was quite impossible 
for Mm (Mr. Peel) to deny, troon a: 
review of all that had been scdd as to 
(he constitution, the proceedings, and 
the delays of chancery, thattfe time 
was now come when the whole of 
these matters should be thoroughly 
inquired into. (Hear, hear.) 

In the course of the last session, the 
attention of the house of lords was 
drawn to the state of the appellate 
jurisdiction; and in the result of 
their inquiries, the lords came to the 
same conclusion at which he had ar- 
rived. The words of their committee 
were, ** There is now ^manifest im- 

■ lity 



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ponilnlity that any peison holding 
the great seal can find the time that 
is requisite for the execution of the 
offices of lord high chancellor and of 
speaker of the house of lords, and for 
the transaction of all the other busi- 
ness incidental to those high offices/' 
With a view of remedying the evils 
that were occasioned by the state of 
the appellate jurisdiction, the com- 
mittee in question recommended, 
** that a committee be instituted for 
the purpose of inquiring into the 
forms of proceeding observed in the 
Scottish courts of justice." That 
committee was formed; and he 
would only say of it, that it termi- 
nated its labours with great success, 
and had given great satisfaction to 
that part of the country to which 
those labours were more immedi- 
ately addressed. In the concluding 
part of their report the commis- 
sioners entered into an explanation 
pf the state of business in chancery. 
Many important alterations, upon this 
important subject, were then noticed 
as having been suggested ; but they 
oonclud^ by declaring, that they 
could form no decided opinion upon 
these matters ; acknowledging, how- 
ever, that many reoonmiended, es- 
pecially, the removal, from the busi- 
ness of the lord chancellor, of lunatic 
and bankrupt petitions. (Hear.) They 
stated further, that all these were 
points of such great importance, that 
they would only reconunend their 
bein^ maturely reconsidered. Since 
the time when this report was pre- 
pared, the attention of the lord chan- 
cellor himself (he was authorized to 
say) had been directed to the same 
subjects. It was stated in the report 
that the orders made by former chgin- 
cdlors as to the practice of the court 
were then under consideration. It 
was, indeed, then intended to ascer- 
tain which of these were most con- 



formable to the present practice, and 
that when these should b« submitted, 
the lords would determine upoi^ pro- 
posing such alterations as might be 
deemed most expedient. 

Now having stated thus much, he 
(Mr. Peel) was further prepared to 
say, that his noble and learned friend 
had himself recommended the ad<^ 
tion of some alterations. (Hear.) 
That noble lord had advised that a 
commission horn the crown under 
the great seal should issue for the 
purpose of considering and inquirii^ 
mto the present condition of very 
many important matters connected 
with the court of chancery : that it 
should examine into the state of its 
jurisdiction, and into many other of 
the points to ^ich the proposed 
committee of the hon. and learned 
gentleman was to address itself 
(Hear, hear.) Indeed, into all of 
those with one exception only— 4hat 
was, the political character of the lord 
chancellor, (hear) — a point which he 
(Mr. Peel) considered to be a great 
political one, and such as neither the 
hon. and learned gentleman's com- 
mittee, nor the commission that had 
been just adverted to, was properly 
competent to discuss. Sure he was^ 
however, that the hon. member would 
agree with him, diat to divest the 
loid chancellor of tlie political duties 
oi his office, would be to do an act 
that ought not to be determined upon, 
except upon the gravest and most 
carenii deliberation. He was equally 
sure that the hon. and learned gen* 
tleman would bear in mind, that this 
objection to the investment of one 
person with political and judicial 
powers had not always been felt, 
even by those who thought and acted 
with that hon. and learned gentle- 
man. This extreme obje^on to the 
union of political and judicial func- 
tions,, in the case of a late noble and 
learned 



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learned lord who once presided over 
thecnminal jurisdiction of this coun- 
try, (we presume the late lord Ellen- 
borough), had undoubtedly not been 
felt even by the hon. and learned 
gentleman himself. (Cheers from the ' 
treasury benches.) Without mean- 
ing to apply any thing like the ar-- 
gumetUum ad hominem to that hon. 
and learned gentleman, he (Mr. Peel) 
would only say, that in the case he 
alluded to, the objection really did 
not appear to have operated with 
some members who might now 
maintain a different principle. But 
the hon. and learned gendeman pro- 
posed a committee that should in- 
quire into the expenses of the court 
of chancery, and into its delays and 
the causes thereof. He (Mr, Peel) 
had no hesitation in saying that he 
believed very great benefit midit be 
derived from such inquiry. (Cheers 
from all sides of the nouse.) The 
bon. and learned eendeman had en- 
tered into some (ktails of a case of 
great hardship ; but it was possible 
W2i y&ry objectionable forms might 
have been once used that were not 
now in practice. The honourable 
and learned gendeman had found a 
case in which a bill in chancery con- 
sisted of 90 folios, 6 only of which 
be 9aid were relevant, and the other 
84, he observed, might well be re- 
duced. He (Mr. Peel) had no dif- 
ficulty in stating-his belief, that the 
reduction of thc»e 84 folios might be 
an important matter, not only in 
point of justice, but also in point of 
economy. 

Upon the subject of that fund 
whidi was called the **dead money" 
fund, the same honourable member 
had asked why should not the ac- 
countant-general of the court of 
chancery eive finom time to time an 
account of the monies in his hands, 
mider these circumstances, on the 



same principle that the bank of Eng- 
land published at intervals an account 
of unclaimed dividends remaining in 
their coffers ? Really, without un- 
derstanding any thing about such 
matters, practically, and speaking 
only as an uneidightened man with- 
out experience, he (Mr. Peel) should 
say the honourable and learned gen- 
tleman's suggestion was a proper and 
beneficial one (hear) ; and mdeed, 
he onl^ claimed to reserve his opinion 
upon it on a ground which the hon. 
and learned gentleman would not 
dispute, namely, lest any thing should 
arise that might induce him to think 
differentiy upjon the expediencr^ of 
such a proposition. He had as litde 
difficulty in declarii^ that he thought 
the whole proceedings of every suit 
in chancery, from its institution to 
its end, ought to be narrowly watched 
and exactfy traced; and that every 
stage (of course he was speaking 
prospectiveljr) ought to be accurately 
considered, in order to see how fo' 
business might be expedited and ex- 
penses retrenched. Great benefit un- 
doubtedly might result to the public 
from such a course of observation. 
As to the bankruptcy petitions, th^ 
formed a part of tne lord chancellor*8 
duty which was not constitutionally 
inherent in his office, but had devol- 
ved upon him by act of parliament 
On this topic, the right tionourable 
gentleman (IVLr.Peel) admitted that the 
ford chancellor had too much busi- 
ness imposed upon him, and the ob- 
ject of tne commission which he had 
alluded to ought to be to inquire what 
part of that business could properly be 
abstracted from him. Upon the same 
subject he was led to oDserve that it 
was of great importance to notice that 
a great difference of opyinion had pre- 
vailed among legal men. The late 
sir Samuel I&milly differed from the 
honourable and learned gentleman 

(Mr. 



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(Mc WUliaiDs) about the propriety 
of coottinuing to the noble and {earn- 
ed lord the jurisdiction in bankruptcy 
cases. If he (Mr. Peel) underwood 
the gestures of the honourable gen- 
tlenum, he supposed that he did not 
think it proper so to continue it 

As to the inquiry proposed by the 
honourable and leamea gentleman, 
he (Mr. Peel) had no objection to its 
being instituted, if it were intrusted to 
the most competent authorities. As 
to the constitution of such a commis- 
sion» he well knew how difficult it 
Vfda for a man to divest himself of his 
own particular prejudices ; and there- 
fore, perhaps, the honourable and 
learned gentleman would suppose 
that his (Mr. Peel's) only object was 
to defeat his motion for a committee. 
He meant, however, to declare his 
own conviction, that a commission 
for these purposes might be formed 
of a much better constitution than 
that proposed. As to taking away 
the jurisdiction in bankruptcy cases, 
that miffht be a matter veiy proper 
for consideration ; but who were most 
qualified to decide upon it? Sup- 
pose that they took either from the 
oommon law or firom equity the best 
and most enlightened authorities; for 
instance, lord Redesdale, sir William 
Qnmt (Hear.) He was sorry to 
observe that a laugh accompanied 
the mention of such names. (Hear.) 
He observed the dissent expressed by 
the honourable and learned gentle- 
man (Mr. Williams), but that hon. 
member was not in a utuation to see 
the sneers, that were occasioned by 
the mention of these names. After 
retiring from their hi^ situations 
with the univexsal approbation of 
their fellow countrymen, if these en- 
lightened individials could be in- 
duced to attend such a conmussion, 
how modi benefit mi^t not the 
country eiq)ect fipom the experience 



of those who had retired with so- 
much honour from the judgment 
seat ? If to these. wefe addeasome 
of the senior masters ia chancery, 
could it be doubted that such a com- 
mission would be better qualified to 
consider such grave matters than any 
committee of ^ that house which the 
honourable and learned gentleman 
could propose? Now it was pre- 
cisely sudi a commission that the 
lord chanceUor had advised the 
crown to empower; and he (Mr. 
Peel) should support it, because he 
believed that it would be more ef- 
fectual than any other. Dealing in 
perfect candour with the honour^le 
gentleman, he would tell him that 
such a commission as he (Mr. Wil- 
liams) now proposed, and last year 
propcHsed, would have the semblance 
of a crimination of the lord chancel- 
' lor, and he for one would oppose any 
motion that should seem to criminate 
a minister who had presided for two- 
and- twenty years in the court of 
chancery with so much honour and 
intelligence as the present lord chan- 
cellor. They were to remember that 
they were not now dealing with lord 
Eldon*s political character, but he pio- 
tested that it was out of no regard for 
the respectability of his private cha«- 
racter that he (Mr. Peel) would not 
consent to anything which should 
look like crimination. No man had 
ever been more exposed to the most 
base and most unmerited obloquy 
than the lord chancelbr. (Hear» 
bear.) He (Mr. Peel) well knew 
that the spirit and principles of men 
of honour would prevent even that 
nobleman^s warmest opponents in 
the house from ^vine their protection 
to such calummes ; out misrepresen- 
tations of the most unjustifiable na- 
ture had been made in quartets whidi 
the lord chanoellor could not even 
notice. He bad been described as a 

man 



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man lea^mng enormous emoluinent8» 
and resLsting eveiy attempt at a xe-> 
form in the axat over which he pre- 
sided, by which those emoluments 
m^hl be in the most distant manner 
afiected. (Hear.) Never was a charge 
so unfounded as this Inrought forward. 
As to the profits of the chancellor- 
ship, they mieht be large, but would 
any body in me country suppose, not 
iqxm views of a private nature merely, 
but upon the highest reasons of state, 
that such an officer ought not to be 
iqplendidly paid ? (Hear.) The &ct 
was, however, that during the last 
three yeajs the aven^ produce of 
the lord chancdlor's whole emolu- 
ments had not amounted to more 
dian 12,000^ a year. (Hear, hear.) 
Surely none of the honourable gen- 
tlemen opposite would grudge to the 
labcnious discharge of such various 
and heavy duties such a remuneia- 
tioD* Let them only think of what 
vast importance to the state it was that 
a man should be tempted to remain 
in such an office in the profession, 
and to relinquish that private and 
more extensive emolument which in 
another situation he might realize. 
God forbid that money done should 
be supposed to actuate those who as* 
i»red to such high dignities; but at 
least those considerations which migliA 
not operate upon public men, might 
well DC entertained by those who 
chose to remain in pnvate stations. 
Wben any proposition had been made 
to relieve tne present lord chancellor 
from any part of the duties of his 
office, he had always i^oposed that 
the person selected to discharge it 
should be paid bv him individually. 
(Hear, hear.) what chaige, then, 
could be more unjust than that which 
had been made, seeing that the lord 
chancellor desired th^ the salary of 
these deputies should be deducted 
from his own inoome ? . Contxaiy to 



his lordship's wiab> parliament had 
determined that only half of the vice* 
chancellor's income should be pn>* 
vided by the chancellor; but this 
half, a sum of 2,500/. was annually 
taken from his lordship's purse. 
When such base insinuations were 
thrown out against such an individual, 
the public had an interest in knowing 
iiaicts of this indisputable nature. Not 
lone ago the office of the secretary of 
bankrupts was newly regulated, and, 
like the bank of England, it had been 
previously allowed a certain number 
of holidays ; but the lord chancellor, 
with a view to the despatch of public 
business, and for the benefit of sui-r 
tors, had insisted that the office clerks 
should attend every day. It became 
therefore, necessary that they should 
be endowed with additional emolu* 
mentB ; and from what funds did die 
lord chancellor of England provide 
them? With a disinterestedness never 
known before under such circum* 
stances, he furnished them ftom. his 
own income ; — a sacrifice which in 
three years amounted to 13,000/1 
paid to public individuals for the disr 
charge of their public duly. (Hearj 
hear.) It had been stated, moreover, 
upon authority which if now alive 
would ^ve the statement the widest 
contradiction, that the lord chancellor 
invariably despatched lunatic and 
bankrupt petitions because he derived 
emolument from their despatch. Now 
the hct was, that though the nature 
of these cases at all times required 
the utmost expedition, he received 
not a single sixpence for despatching 
them. He was now occupied in hear- 
ing a bankrupt petition; he (Mr. 
Peel) knew not how many days the 
hearing had lasted, or whether it was 
as long as the counsel's speech in the 
Roxbuighe case — (here Uie solicitor- 
g^deral checked the right honourable 
goiUeman). He had really to beg 

his 



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his n^^ h>ji* 'i*nd learned friend's 
pardoo for ^\l tli^t tie had said on 
. that siiLjeci (mui^h laughter) ; h'ow-^ 
ever, on tlie ca^^e to wliieh lie had 
alhided, hV\i\ ^vll{ch had fKrcupit^ ^l" 
ready ^ti mucti tin^s thr km chan-., 
tellofs fee lA^aS ll<^/fi^.i — tfrelVe 
shilling^ a!iid '^]^e'>)v4y:'l!he ibc^' 
that wsS to iiidhce the !ord' tiliartceHi' 
lor of England to ciomittTt a matotftSf' 
mjiistice, by takii^ a banfaropt'^pett-^ ' 
tionontofitscowsel ^Heair, hiafi) 
He knew that these were not ttief 
charges made by honottmbk gentle^" 
men opposite; bul they, adnvittirtg ^ 
fully his lordship's integntjr andkiiB-' 
interestedness, contended that he oo*r 
casioned aH the nusebievona^ieia^.^f *. 
which they complained^ Ifthetiol)Jb 
Ibrd was unwilling to pronounee a 
final judgment^ whid> would have the 
effect of raising one family to pnos* 
perity and of plunging another in 
ruin ; if, perhaps, from some consti- 
tutional defect, he was not so rapid 
in his decisions as the circumstances 
probably might require, would it not 
be fair and liberEU to allow for the 
iinpjsrfections'of human nature, rather 
than to cast obloquy upon an indivi- 
dual who possessed the highest talent 
and the most spotless integrity ? — 
(Hear, hear.) 

^he delays which were complained 
of 'arbseTrom the enbrmpus mass of 
business whlcb' the lord chancellor 
had to dispose 6f. ^He could state 
instances in"«Mch his lordship was 
called Away from the consideration 
of causes in the court of chancery to 
attend to business of a different de- 
scription. He (Mr. Peel) himself had 
frecpiently been the occasion of with- 
drawing the lord chancellor from the 
court over which he presided to at- 
tend" to the leoorder's report* It wals 
the duty of the iord chancellor to give 
his. advice to bis majesty on the sdb*- 
ject of that report His lordship vas 



in this manner veiy fireqiie^tl^ pre^. 
vented from the cont^mplatioa of 
equity causes to the cbnsideiation ojf . 
those cases in which w^re involved 
the Question of life or death. ' It h^ . 
fallbn fo'bis^M'f! Peel's) lot to send , 
totftp'tei^Hiaiifc'flltflf '^t the rising <^ 
• his'c«uhiH6'^Hfe)rih^^WW thai on the j 
'• en^lj^ iti6irrtW*hi!i'te'ajesfy would 
? re^^ tb^^^ecdltlei^sieport, contain-' 
in^,' *i^!«aBW,*mty ' bi?' fifb^ cases. 
Oft ptelJeWfti^*>m)»»Hf^ court of 
chaiki^N^ Mi^ lOj^i^bh^^ould, as was 
hi^^^d^lAMn^^t^ftkediDi^ ^'sUeh otca- 
si(iiMf:tp^y^toitns«lf^O'the reading 
of'dfOif ^iiidMdtMl'case, and sAistract 
nofcesifrom; ail' bf them ; and he (Mr. 
PeeL^ : had* known more^wn one in- 
stance in which he had ocanmenced 
his -labour in the evening, and had 
been found pursuing it by tiie next 
sun. (Hear, hear.) Thus, after hav- 
ing spent eight hours in the court of . 
clmncery, his lordship would be com- 
pelled to employ fourteen hours more 
in the consideration of cases which 
involved the life or death of indivi- 
duals. If, in conseouenoe of the 
various duties which the lord chan- 
cellor was called upon to execute, 
some delay should arise in the pro- 
ceedings in chancery, could it be 
imputed as blame to the individual, 
when it was known that his whole 
time was devoted to the service of his 
country ? (Hear.) If, indeed, it were 
die disposition of the lord chancel- 
lor to indulge in pleasures and idle 
amusements, he might justly be blam- 
ed for the delays which occurred in 
his court ; but vHien, as was really 
the case, that indivkktal had for a 
period of ^urty-two years denied 
nim»elf every indulgence, shmmed 
every pleasure, and secluded himself 
from the socie^ of the world, in oidar 
to devote his whole time to the per* 
ibrmance of his public duties, it would 
be the most unjust tU ng possible to 

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make it matter of crimination against 
him that he was not able to com- 
pass the whole of thenu (Hear.) He 
would admit, that no considerations 
of personal feeling ought to prevent 
the house from doing what it consi- 
dered proper to be done with regard 
to the question which had been 
brought before it : but, on the other 
hand^when he recollected the speeclies 
which were made last year, he could 
not, notwithstanding the moderation 
of the honourable mover on the pre- 
sent occasion, get rid of the impres- 
sion that the motion before the house 
was a continuation of that of last 
year, and that such would be the in- 
ference which it would draw from 
the pioceeding, and he therefore call- 
ed upon the house to reject it. He 
was perfectly satisfied that if the house 
did ao, the coimtry would confirm its 
decision. The country was not un- 
grateful to those who had served them. 
VVhen the house recollected that the 
individual whose conduct had been 
made the subject of discussion had 
for twenty-two years administered 
justice in the highest court of the 
country ; when they recollected that 
he bore the honoured name of Scott, 
which, notwithstanding the tempo- 
rary obloquy which had been cast 
upon it, was illustrated by the ser- 
vices of an Eldon and a Stowell, and 
would shine conspicuously in the ju- 
dicial annals of the country, he trust- 
ed ibatthey would testify dieir confi- 
dence in his talents and integrity by 
lejecting the motion which had been 
broij^ht forward, and he was convinced 
that the people of this country would 
be g^ierous and just enough to sup- 
port the decision of their representa- 
tives. (Hear.) 

Mr. Abereramhj said, that he would 
not have presented himself to the no- 
tice of the house but for some obser- 
vations which fell from the right hon. 
1824.] , 



gentleman who had just sat down, 
ne b^ged to oK&t ms sincere con- 
gratulations to his learned and hon. 
friend upon the success which had 
attended his efforts ; but the congra- 
tulations wliich he wished to offer to 
the public must, in consequence of 
what had fallen from the right hon. 
secretary, be subject to some qualifi- 
cations. The right hon. gentleman 
had said, that it was the intention of 
ministers to have proposed the ap- 
pointment of a commission, whether 
the present motion had been brought 
forward or not. That declaration 
having been made, he was bound to 
give credit to it; but he was sure 
that the public v^uld attribute the 
institution of any inquiry into the 
proceedings of the xiourt of chancery, 
with a view to their amelioration, to 
the undaunted zeal of his honourable 
and learned friend. (Cheers.) The 
determination to which ministers had 
come would be regarded by the coun- 
tiy in no other light than as a capi- 
tulation at the opening of the second 
campaign. He was desirous to make 
a few observations with respect to the 
commission which it was to establish, 
because the right honourable gentle- 
man had assumed a proposition, the 
correctness of which he (Mr. Aber- 
cromby) very much doubted— nan>ely, 
the inability of the lord chancellor to 
perform all the functions of his office 
as they had been performed hereto- 
fore by his predecessors. The right 
honourable gentleman had stated a 
variety of facts with respect to the 
increase of business in the court of 
chancery, and from those acts he drew 
Uie conclusion to which he had just 
fflluded, and which must either have 
been suggested to him by others, or 
have presented itself to his own 
mind. 

The first point upon which the 

right hon. gendeman had dwelled 

I was. 



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was, the increase of business in 
the lunacy department He would 
now repeat what he had stated 
last session, which had remained 
uncontradicted, because it was in- 
capable of receiving contradiction, 
namely, that there was no kind of 
business which devolved upon the 
lord chancellor which, with few ex- 
ceptions, occupied so little of his 
time as matters of lunacy. The most 
important point to which a commis- 
sion of inquiry could direct its atten- 
tion, would be to ascertain what had 
been the effects of the institution of 
the vice chancellor's court It was 
highly desirable to know what had 
been the operation of that measure. 
He called upon ministers to consider 
the whole Dusiness of chancery in 
detail — ^to see how much was done 
in the court of chancery, how much 
in the vice chancellor's court, and 
how much by the master of the rolb; 
and then to declare whether there was 
any ground for saying that the lord 
chancellor was unable to perform the 
duties of his office as they had been 
performed heretofore. He had al- 
ways considered that the vice chan- 
cedor*s court would form a most 
important object of inquiry, and he 
had taken the pains to ascertain the 
present state of business in that court 
He wished the house to bear in mind 
that no original cause was set down 
for hearing before the lord chancel- 
lor — he heard only causes of appeal. 
In considering the state of the busi- 
ness before the lord chancellor, the 
number of bills was a circumstance 
of little importance,' because tlie 
causes had originally been disposed 
of by the vice chancellor and the 
master of the rolls. With respect to 
the master of the rolls, however, he 
was compelled to say, that that judge 
had not done much; indeed, he 
n)ie:ht call on his honourable and 



learned friends opposite to ilate 
whether they had ever known, in 
modem times, a master of tlie rolls 
who had given so little assistance to 
the business of the court of chanceiy 
as the present master ? The fact of 
the vice chancellor hearing all the 
original causes was an unanswerable 
argument against the condusion to 
which the honourable eentieman had 
come with respect to me inability of 
the lord chancellor to execute die 
duties of his office as they had be^ 
performed by the former lord chan- 
cellors. He would now inform the 
house what was the present state of 
business in the vice chancellor's 
court, which he had ascertained from 
personal inquiries. The demurrers 
had been heard up to last hilaiy 
term. The original causes set down 
in last easter term were now in a 
course .of hearing. Further excep- 
tions and directions had been dis- 
posed of up to the long vacation. 
The bankrupt petitions had been 
heard up to the same period ; and, 
according to the average rate of pro- 
ceeding, it was likely that before the 
end of tlie present sittings, the whole 
of the causes filed in easter term, 
and probably those filed in trinity 
term, would be disposed o£ The 
right honourable gentleman had 
stated that there was a great increase 
of bankrupt cases ; but he had omit- 
ted to add, that a large proportion of 
them were heard by the vice chan- 
cellor ; and furtlier, that the hearing 
bankrupt petitions' did, in a small 
degree, impede the ordinary business 
of the court, because they were heard 
at the end of the sittings, and only 
protracted the labours of the judge 
for a few days.- The vice chancellor 
was now doin,^ all the business which 
the lord chancellor used to do. When 
the vice chancellor's c^urt bill was 
before the house, one of the great 

objec- 



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objections to it was, that after the 
esteblishment of the court, every 
cause would be heard twice by way 
of appeal, and that a great additional 
expense and hardship would thereby 
he incurred by the suitors. That was 
an obvious argument, and one which 
it was di£Bcult to answer. It would 
therefore reasonably be supposed 
that every difficulty consistent with 
the due administration of justice 
would have been thrown in the way 
of persons wishing to enter appeab 
firom the decisions of the vice cnan- 
cdlor. The contrary, however, was 
the hex. It was true that when a 
decree was pronounced by the vice 
chancellor in a cause, it was required, 
that before an appeal from his deciraon 
could be heard, an opinion in ^vour 
of such a proceeding should be signed 
by two counsel. The object of that 
proceeding was to guard suitors 
against entering appeals which were 
not likely to be attended with success, 
and would only cause additional and 
umiecessary expense. But in an 
important part of the business in 
chancery — namely, motions — the 
kxd chancellor had dispensed with 
any security against unnecessaiy ap- 
peals; ana parties who had been 
defeated in a motion in the vice 
chancellor's court, were permitted to 
huny into the court of dkncery, and 
re-debate the question before his 



lliere was another circumstance 
of extreme importance with respect 
to a|^)eal8, to which he could not 
help adverting. It would have been 
8um)osed, that if any principle of 
eqmty should be held more sacred 
than another, it ought to be this — 
that no appeal should be heard before 
a superior tribunal, except on the 
same grounds on which it had been 
argi^ before the inferior tribunal. 
But how did the case stand ? Parties 



who had Tbeen unsuccessful in their 
motions upon affidavit before the 
vice chancellor, finding the weak 
parts of their case, were in the habit 
of preparing fresh affidavits, and, 
going before the lord chancellor with 
an amended case, they frequentiy 
obtained from him a contrary deci- 
sion to that which had been given in 
the inferior court. The effect of 
such proceedings was extremely in- 
jurious to the reputation of the vice 
chancellor, whose jud^ent was 
supposed to be in opposition to that 
of the lord chancellor ; whereas the 
two judges had decided upon different 
cases. 

The same want of security against 
unnecessary appeals which was so 
jusdy complained of in cases of mo- 
tions, also existed with regard to 
bankrupt petitions. The increased 
facility which was given to appeals 
operated to the injury of suitors, the 
delay of business, and to the preju- 
dice of the inferior judge. (Hear.) 
The right honourable gentleman said 
that the propriety of an inquiry into 
the delays in the court of cliancery 
had frequently been the subject of 
discussion in the house of commons, 
and that the establishment of the 
vice chancellor's court was one of the 
expedients which had been adopted 
for the purpose of remedying the 
delays complained of. The ri^t 
honourable gentleman was quite 
wrong on that point The vice 
chancellor's court was not established 
with any view to the state of busi- 
ness in the court of chancery, but 
only with a view to the state of busi- 
ness in the house of lords. That was 
distincdy stated in the preamble of 
the vice chancellor's court bill. With 
respect to the propriety of an inquiry 
taking place into the proceedings of 
the court of chancery, he thought 
that no man could entertain a doubt 

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after reading the bill uf costs which 
had been produced by his honourable 
and learned friend. He would be 
content to rest the question upon 
that document alone. The test by 
which he would propose to try the 
conduct of the lord chancellor in his 
judicial capacity would be by having 
a statement drawn up of Uie time 
when the different appeals were made ; 
when they were put into his lord- 
ship's paper ; how many times \\iey 
had appeared there; when judgment 
was obtained upon them ; and what 
costs were incurred. (Hear.) The 
bill of costs which his hon. and 
learned friend had produced spoke 
for itself. Nothing could more clearly 
demonstrate the imperfections of the 
present system than that bill, every 
item of which had been allowed by 
the master. 

He would now only trouble the 
house with a few observations with 
respect to the commission which it 
seemed was to be appointed. The 
whole merit of that commission 
would depend on its composition 
(hear), and on the intent aiid object 
of those who appointed it. (Hear.) 
It might, perhaps, be the effect of 
those habits which are acquired by 
every person who took a part in the 
debates in that house, but he must 
confess that he did not place much 
confidence in the proposed commis- 
sion. (Hear, hear.) There was not 
a single fact wliich his honourable 
friend had,^ted which could be 
considered as a discovery. Every 
thing which he had stated had long 
been perfectly notorious to every 
indlvidnal who practised in the 
co:ut of chancery; and if it were 
known to those who practised in the 
court, how mucli better must it have 
been known to the individual who 
presided there. (Hear.) The pi^esent 
lord chancellor had now been in 



office during twenty-two years, and 
it was now, in 1 824, in the second 
year of the motion for inquiry, that 
a commission was to be appointed 
for that pwpose. Those were cir- 
cumstances which he could not dis- 
miss from his mind. All the hon. 
^tlemen opposite, who took a part 
in the debate on his hon. friend's 
motion last session, treated the ques- 
tion as if it were a personal attack. 
He could not help thinking that a 
feeling of that kind would be an in- 
gredient in the composition of Uie 
commission. It was consistent with 
human nature that it should be ao. 
It was impossible that the lord chan- 
cellor could divest himself of such a 
feeling, and he did not find fault 
with him for not being able to do 
so. But it should he recollected that 
it was by his lordship's advice that 
the commission was to be appointed, 
and it would, in all probability, be 
by him that tlie members would be 
named. (Hear.) He (Mr. Aber- 
cromby) would not trust his dearest 
friend with such a power, if he stood 
in the lord chancellor's situation. 
He would say to him, ** You are the 
last man who ought to have any share 
in the appointment of those persons." 
(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to 
place any confidence in a commis- 
sion which should be so appointed. 
It was a*bsurd to suppose that a per- 
son connected so deeply as the lord 
chancellor* was with the question, 
could be a person qualified to nomi- 
nate the members of the commis- 
sion. The public would not believe 
that the object of a commission so , 
appointed was to promote their be- 
nefit, so much as to defend the lord 
chancellor against any <;ase that had I 
been, or was likely to be, made 
against him. (Hear, hear.) , 

Mr. Lochhart suggested to the 
honourable member for Lincoln, that 



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it would be advisable to withdraw the 
motion for the appointment of a 
committee. Such a proceeding would 
not preclude the house from again 
considering the question at a future 
period, if it should be thought pro- 
per so to do. He thought it would 
be improper to let the lord chancel- 
lor have the nomination of the com- 
mission, 

Mr. Brougham wished to state the 
reasons why he was disposed to ap- 
prove of the withdrawing of the mo- 
tion. If he thought tliat by that step 
the house would part with that most 
constitutional mode of inquiiy into 
abuses of the desciiption of those 
which had been brought under its 
notice — he meant the exercise of the 
inquisitorial functions of that house — 
he would not only express his disap- 
probation of the withdrawing of the 
motion, but would feel it his duty to 
divide the house on the question. 
But that was not the case ; the house 
would not lose its control over the 
subject which had been brought be- 
fiwe it by meeting the question in 
the way which had been suggested. 
He not only congratulated his hon. 
and learned friend, the member for 
Lincoln, on account of the distin- 
guished talents which he had dis- 
played, surpassing, if possible, those 
which he had exWbited on the same 
occasion last year, but he 'also con- 
gratulated the country- on the great 
practical benefits which had already 
resulted from the hon. member's ex- 
ertions in the great cause which he 
had undertaken. That the project 
of a commission had suggested itself 
to the lord chancellor's mind, and 
had not been propoimded to him, he 
was bound to believe, because it had 
been asserted. That it would have 
sc^gested itself to his lordship's mind, 
but for and independently of the ex- 
ertioiis of his hon. and learned friend. 



was another proposition, the affirma- 
tive of which he had not heard as- 
serted, and the negative of which he 
most entirely and firmly believed. 
(Hear.) That the idea never would 
have entered into his lordship's con- 
sideration but for his honourable 
and learned friend's motion last 
year, he believed that every man in 
the house must be satislied of. 
( " No.") Nay, more; he believed 
that it never would have entered into 
his contemplation had it not been 
for the notice of the present motion. 
With respect to the mode of inquiry 
which was to be adopted, he person- 
ally had no cause to complain, be- 
cause it was the same which he had 
. proposed last year with respect to the 
Scotch courts. (Hear.) Everything, 
however, would depend on the con- 
stitution of the commission. That 
tiie commission should be recom- 
mended by the lord chancellor was 
one tiling; but that his lordship 
should take upon himself the respon- 
sibility of naming the individuals 
who were to be charged with the 
functions of inquiring into his con- 
duct, really appeared to be a circum- 
stance all but incredible. (Hear, 
hear.) That the lord chancellor — 
who hesitated about all other matters 
(a laugh) — who on all other occa- 
sions exhibited so much of that in- 
decision which his friends charged 
him with in extenuation of other 
charges of a graver nature — should, 
without any doubtiiigs, faulterings, 
or indecision whatever, make up his 
mind at once to take on himself the 
task of nominating the judges who 
were to inquire mto his judicial con- 
duct, was one of the most remarkable 
instances of anomaly and inconsist- 
ency which had ever come within 
his (Mr. Brougham's) knotvledge. 
He must say, for his part, that if the 
commission were to be nominated in 

the 



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the manner which he supposed it 
would be from what had fallen from 
the right honourable gentleman op- 
posite, his hopes of a beneficial re- 
sult from their labours would be ex- 
tremely moderate. He would wish 
the plan which was adopted with 
respect to the appointment of the 
commission to inquire into the 
abuses of the Scotch courts, to be 
followed on the present occasion. In 
that commission, t<^ther with per- 
sons in office in Scotland, were 
appointed, individuals who had no 
connection with the courts at all — 
who, because it was known that they 
were nominated by a noble lord who 
possessed the highest influence in 
his majjBsty's councils, were morally 
certain of acquiring great weight in 
the commission. He firmly believed 
that if the Scotch commission had 
been framed without an infusion of 
members from this country, it never 
would have produced a report of the 
slightest consequence to the house or 
the country. Nobody acquainted 
with Scotland would dispute that the 
Scotch commission would have been 
worse than useless, had it not com- 
prised amongst its members persons 
who were unconnected with the 
courts which were the objects of 
inquiry. He understood that the 
present commission was to be com- 
posed entirely of persons connected 
with the com! of chancery. 

Mr. Ped here made an obser- 
vation across the table, which was 
inaudible. 

Mr. Brougham resumed. —- Un- 
doubtedly there ought to be some 
persons connected with the court of 
chancery in the commission ; but if 
it were to be composed wholly, or 
in the greater part, of persons who 
held offices or practised m that court, 
it would be the merest mockery ever 
attempted to be imposed on the 



country. It would be useless to ap- 
point persons to act in the commq- 
sion who> he would not say paitodb 
of the profits of the present system, 
but having been bom and bred in 
the midst of it, had grown callous to 
its effect, and would be inclined to 
look on some matter which he, or 
even the right honourable gentleman 
opposite, would be inclined to con- 
sider a monstrous abuse, as a very 
trivial affair. The only remedy which 
the house could have if the commit- 
tee was to be appointed in the man- 
ner which he had described, was to 
provide that there should not be a 
report of merely the result of the 
inquiry, but that all the evidence 
which might be taken shoukl be 
published, with the names of the 
witnesses (** Hear, hear," from 
Mr. Peel) : but that was not suffi- 
cient ; much depended on the man- 
ner in which the inquiry would 
be carried on. If two persons were 
appointed whose object was to shel- 
ter abuses and stifle inquiry, and two 
others who really desired to elicit 
truth, those two parties, althou^ 
they would examine the same wit- 
nesses, would come to conclusions 
direcdy opposite to each other. Be- 
fore he could entertain any sanguine 
expectation of good accruing firom 
the proposed commission, he must 
know something of its nature ; and 
he was here speaking rather of the 
individuals who were to compose it 
than of the instructions they were to 
receive, which every body knew 
might be so worded as to meet, with 
apparent effect, the grievance com- 
plained of, and yet, when carried 
into practice, might be totally nuga- 
tory. 

Before he could look forward to 

any advantageous practical results 

from their inquiry, he must know 

whether the individuals selected to 

conduct 



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conduct it were qualified by their 
talents, knowledge, and experience 
for such a task ; and whether they 
were likely to have grown callous to 
the abuses they 'were appointed to 
investigate, from being long accus- 
tomed to witness them. If they 
were persons of that description — if 
their lives iiad been passed amidst 
legal forms and technical subtilties — 
then he must say that he should look 
upon the proposed commission as 
nothing less than a mockery and a 
deception, and a fraudulent device 
lo shelter from destruction abuses 
which were too flagrant to admit 
any longer of palliation or defence. 
However, as the court of equity was 
not the only court in which aouses 
existed at present, — as there were 
delays in the coivts of common law, 
extremely distressing in themselves, 
but far less mischievous than those 
in the courts of chancery, — as there 
was anollier evil in all our courts 
still more pernicious than the ddays 
in any of them, namely, ^e enor- 
mous expense of law proceedings — 
an expense which was so notoriously 
overwhelming as to induce indivi- 
duals frequeiSly to submit to unjust 
demands rather than obtain a ruin- 
ous triumph by contesting them— he 
trusted that all tliese grievances 
would become the objects of future 
inquiry, and, if the commission were 
properly constituted, even of their 
mvestigation. If they were not sub- 
mitted to its examination, he hoped 
that some honourable member would 
come forward with a motion to sub- 
mit them to the examination of a 
distinct commission ; for the abuses 
in question were so inimical to the 
due administration of justice, as to 
require instant suppression. For his 
own part, he coula not help asking, 
would it not be better to begin with 
them immediately, than leave them 



for subsequent inquiiy ? Would it 
not be better at the vety outset of the 
inquiry, in the first step of its pro- 
gr^, to add to the powers of the 
commission the power of investi- 
gating the abuses of the courts of 
OMnmon law, and thus to give the 
country the prospect of having' the 
lesser evils under which it laboured, 
put in the same course of remedy 
that was going to be appbed to those 
^ich were more severe and invete- 
rate? An honourable and learned 
friend suggested to him, that the 
equity side of the court of exche- 
quer, as it was nearly the same in 
practice as the oourt of ohancary, 
should at any rate form part of the 
subject into which the commission 
should be ordered to inquire. He 
was certain that it would richly repay 
any attention which the commissicm 
might bestow upon it; and trusted 
that if it were ordered to inquire 
into 'the courts of common law^ ^t 
would not fail to include in its la- 
bours both sides of the court of ex- 
chequer. 

Before he sat down, he could not 
help saying a word or two upon the 
defence wluch hr«d been set up for 
the delays of the court of chancery 
by the right honourable secretsuy for 
the home department. Those ddays, 
it was said, were occasioned by the 
great iacrease of. judicial business 
that had taken place in that court, 
especially in the cases of lunacy and 
bankruptcy. Now the increase of 
business in the courts of common 
law far exceeded the increase in the 
courts of equity, but had not been 
attended by anything like a propor- 
tionate increase in the time of trans- 
acting it. When lord Mansfield was 
alive, he was thought to have per- 
formed a great thing when he tried 
sixty causes in one sittings. The late 
lord Ellenborough had not tried, but 

had 



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had seen set down fbr trial at one of 
his sittings, no less than 588 causes. 
He allowed such a number to be 
rather extraordinary; but he could 
not refrain from stating to the house, 
and stating most positively, that the 
average number at present was from 
300 to 400 for each sittings— an 
increase of business which, he again 
J, far exceeded any that nad 



taken place in lunacy and bankruptcy 
business in the court of chancery. 
He knew that the house had sanc- 
tioned, and, as he thought, very 
unwisely, a measure to get rid of the 
arrear of business in me courts of 
common law; but that arrear was 
veiy small when compared with the 
arrear of lunacy in the courts of 
equity. The delay, too, in the courts 
of common law was very inferior to 
that in the court of equity. In- 
deed, in some cases, the courts of 
common law acted with great rapid- 
ity and despatch. His honourable 
and learned friend on the other side, 
would recollect that a case had been 
tried at the last sittings on tlie 20th 
of December, in which the cause of 
action had not accrued on the 20th 
of the preceding November. He 
knew that the decision to which the 
court then came, was not final upon 
every point in dispute; but when 
was any preliminary decision ever 
obtained in so short a time in the 
court of chancery ? He did not mean 
to say that there was no delay in the 
courts of common law ; by no means 
— he knew that there were too many, 
and was anxious to remove them : 
all he meant to say was this, that th^ 
delays of the courts of common law 
vanished into perfect insignificance, 
whenever they were compared with 
those of the court of chancery. 
(Cheers.) In conclusion, he ex- 
pressed his gratitude to his hon. and 
learned friend the member for Lin- 



coln, for the unwearied attention 
which he had bestowed upon this 

auestion, and o^ngratulated him upon 
le great advantages which he nad 
already obtained tbr the public, in 
obtaining from the ministers of the 
crown an admission that there were 
abuses in the court of chancery which 
demanded reform. Reflecting, how- 
ever, that the ministers had under- 
taken to appoint a commission to 
take the subject into consideration- 
recollecting that the house had full 
power to superintend and control the 
proceedings of that oommission — 
considering that the original auestion 
remained uncompromised oy any 
thin^ which had taken place that 
evenmg — being left at full liberty to 
form his opinion of that commission 
according to the manner in which it 
might be constituted and perfonn its 
duties, he could not help counsellii^ 
his honourable and learned firiend 
not to take the sense of the house on 
the motion which he had just made, 
but to wait patiendy till he saw the 
result of the labours of the proposed 
commission. (Hear, hear.) 

Mr. Canning observed, that after 
the recommen<kition with which the 
hon. and learned gentleman who had 
just sat down, had concluded his 
speech, it was not his intention to 
trespass long upon the time and pa- 
tience of the house. But as the 
speeches of two of the hon. members 
who had followed his right hon. col- 
league, the secretary for the home 
department, appeared to turn almost 
entirely upon the effectiveness and 
sincerity of the proposed commis- 
sion, he thought that it would be 
satisfactory not only to the house, 
but also to the country at laige, to 
have an assurance, not only on the 
part of the noble ford who was 
thought to be most interested in this 
question, but also on the part of 

others 



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13? 



otheis of his i]iajesty*s ministerSy — 
aa assurance which for his own part 
he most willingly gave, — that the in- 
quiry into which that commission was 
to enter, should be as sincere, as im- 
partial, and as effectual as it was pos- 
sible for man to make it. (Hear, hear. 
Even if^any disposition to trifle with 
so important a subject were evinced, 
bon. gentlemen must be aware that 
no government in the present en- 
lightened state of the age could, after 
consenting to institute an inquiiy, 
conduct it in such a manner as to 
prevent it £rom arriving at a salutary 
and beneficial result. He, therefore, 
was of opinion, that to anticipate a 
satisfactory and auspicious conclusion 
to the labouns of the commission, 
would be more consistent with can- 
dour and good feeling, than to augur 
nothing but disappointment, mock- 
ery 9 and deception. 

The points into which the com- 
mission would be more particularly 
instructed to inquire would be, first, 
whether it was possible to lessen the 
time consumed ; and, secondly, 
whether it would be possible to les- 
sen the expense incurred, by suits 
in equity. The third point, which 
was, perhaps, the most important of 
all, would be, whether any portion 
of the business now discharged by 
the lord chancellor of England, 
could, without detriment to the pub- 
lic, be turned over to any other; 
and, if to any other, to what public 
officer? These points would form 
the principal subjects into which the 
commision would have to examine ; 
and he now stated them, not with 
any view of giving an opinion as to 
the results at which it was probable 
that the commission might arrive, 
but with a view of assuring the 
house, that into each and all of 
them examination would be insti- 
tiited in a spirit of most perfect sin- 



cerity, and with the most anxious de- 
sire on the part of government to give 
full effect to any recommendations 
which it might conceive necessary to 
make. 

With regard to the constitution of 
the commission, upon which, after 
what had fallen from the hon. and 
learned gentleman who had spoken 
last, he might be expected to offer a 
few remarks, he would simply ob- 
serve, that though it mieht not be 
difficult for him to describe the ele- 
ments^ still it would be difficult for 
him to name the exact individuals of 
which it was to be composed, because 
some of those persons on whom go- 
vernment might be inchned to im- 
pose this duty, might, for various 
reasons, be not altogether disposed 
to undertake it This, however, he 
could state, that it was the desire of 
government to place in this commis- 
sion individuals who were best quali- 
fied by their age, knowledge, and 
long experience in legal matters, to 
discharge its functions ably and ef- 
fectually — who, fix)m their rank in 
life, would be enabled to declare 
their opinions without fear, favour, 
or partiality, and Who, from their 
past services to the state, would have 
autliority sufficient to recommend 
their decisions to the favourable 
consideration of the house and the 
country. (Hear, hear.) The hon. 
and learned gentleman who had 
spoken last, after hinting his dislike 
to this commission, and his doubts 
as to its efficacy, had cursorily ob- 
served that he should like the scheme 
of it better were it to comprehend 
within its range the various abuses of 
the courts of common law. He asked 
the house whether, if his right hon. 
colleague's proposition had gone that 
length, it would not have oeen as- 
serted that the object of it was to 
divide blame by diffusing it over a 

larger 



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lar^ surface, and to incumber in- 
quiiy by multiplying the subjects to 
which it was to be directed ? (Hear, 
hear.) His right hon. colleague had 
confined the inquiry within the li- 
mits he had mentioned, in order to 
render it more effectual : not in- 
truding it into any other part of the 
system that was incumbered with the 
same defects, but directing it to cer- 
tain defined and positive evils, in the 
hope of being better enabled thereby 
to remedy and remove them. In 
doing so, his right hon. friend was 
but MfilHng the intentions of the dif- 
ferent members of the government ; 
and the house might therefore rely, 
not only on the proper formation of 
the commission, but also on the pro- 
per execution of its duties, especially 
when it recollected that over both it 
could exercise a most speedy and 
efficient control. 

As he had said thus much upon 
the formation of the commission, he 
conceived that it would be most un- 
fair to the noble lord who was at the 
head of the court of chancery, to let 
it be supposed that the project of this 
commission had originated from any 
wish on his parf to elude the present 
motion. It was not always prudent 
to examine too deeply into tlie 
springs of human action. In most 
cases it would be seen that the no- 
blest deeds had sprung out of mo- 
tives of a mixed nature. He would 
not, therefore, say that this commis- 
sion would have been formed had 
the subject of it never excited parlia- 
mentary discussion ; but this he would 
say — ^that it had not been devised 
to meet the peril of the present day, 
or to get rid of the present motion ; 
on the contrary, the date of its being 
first bought of was as old as the re- 
port of the house of lords last year, in 
which the very elements of the pre- 
sent inquiry were distinctly pointed 



out; in which this very scheme was 
almost expressly mentioned, and with 
which, as the object of it more par- 
ticularly fell under his department, 
his right hon. friend and colleague 
had b^n occupied during the greater 
part of last summer. Had £e for- 
mation of this commission been an- 
nounced to the house at the time that 
the hon. and learned member for 
Lincoln gave notice of his present 
motion, his majesty's ministers would 
have been exposed to the same im- 
putations that were now thrown out 
against them, and also to the addi- 
tional imputation that it had been 
announced because they were afraid 
to meet the motion on its intrinsic 
merits. It was only due to the hoiu 
and learned member to state, that the 
tone of his attack had greatly facili- 
tated the object which he had in 
view : with one exception, to which 
he should hereafter have occasion to 
recur— namely, the plan of the hon. 
member for separating the l^al and 
political character of the chamoeUor 
— ^there was scarcely any tcMpic in his 
speech to which he should object ; 
indeed, no speech, that was necea- 
sarily of an accusatoiy kind could 
have been so successful in leading to 
the issue to which the house seemed 
inclined to come, as the speech which 
the honourable and learned member 
had that evening dehvered. He was 
himself sure that even those who had 
come prepared to attack the lord 
chancellor with all their artillery of 
eloquence, would be rejoiced to find 
that at present it was unnecessary* 
Every man, who was really anxious 
to shorten the delay and to simplify 
the practice of the court of chancery, 
would feel satisfied in gaining his ob- 
ject, without assailing Uie character of 
the judge who presided in it, and would 
see that to pursue his object further at 
present would be inoonsktent with 

the 



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the conduct of a public-spirited man, 
and would savour too strongly of in- 
dividual persecution. (Cheers.) The 
house would on that account be more 
and more satisfied, on reflection, with 
its decision of the present evening ; 
and would even now feel no slight 
pleasure in recollecting, that' the cha- 
racter of the individual who had so 
long filled the high office of lord 
chancellor, would stand as unim- 
peached at the close of his long and 
valuable career, as it had done at its 
commencement ; and that, whatever 
might be the result of Jhe inquiry 
now issued, no matter whether lord 
Eldon was to be the last chancellor 
of England who was to unite in his 
own person all the different functions 
which now belonged to that high of- 
fice, or whether any means should 
be devised of collecting them into 
one effective whole, and bestowing 
them on a single individual — a con- 
summation which he would much 
rather behold, than a separation of 
them held by different officers — he 
would descend to posterity with un- 
sullied fame, and with the enviable 
reputation of having discharged his 
arduous duties in such a manner, as 
to entitle him to the applause and 
admiration of all his contemporaries. 
(Cheers.) He could not q^uit this 
subject without again remarkmg, that 
there was one point in the speech of 
the honourable and learned member 
for Lincoln, from wliich he differed 
most widely. He could never wish 
to see the legal and political character 
of the lord chancellor of England 
made distinct and separate, consider- 
ing, as he did, that in the appoint- 
ment to that high office, one of the 
proudest distinctions of the British 
monarchy had long existed. On a 
former occasion when the creation of 
an auxiliary tribunal to the court of 
chancery was under discussion in 



that housej» fix>m which he acknow- 
ledged thathehadpredicted that much 
evil and inconvenience would en- 
sue, but regarding which he could not 
say whether his prediction had or had 
not been verified, from want of in- 
formation on the subject — on a for- 
mer occasion, he asserted, that he 
had declared his opinions to be ini- 
mical to the separation of the two 
characters of the lord chancellor. 
He thoi^ht that it was one of the 
noblest and most valuable pren^a- 
tives of the crown of England, that k 
could take from the wmks of West^ 
minster-hall the meanest individual 
— and when he used the word mean- 
est, he used it not with reference to 
talents and intellectual endowments, 
but to birth and original station in 
society - and place him at once in 
the head and front of the peerage of 
England ; and he never wished to 
see the day when the crown was de- 
prived of that beautiful privilege, 
which, though it formed the very es- 
sence of the monarchy, was at the 
same time the surest support and bul- 
wark of the democratic part of our con- 
stitution. (Great cheering.) It was not 
therefore, for the sake of lord Eldon, 
much and highly as he respected that 
venerable nobleman, that he objected 
to the separation of the legal and po- 
litical functions of the chancellor ; 
but it was with a view of preserving 
to the monarchy one of its most an- 
cient and invaluable prerogatives, of 
keeping open the passage from the 
gay powdered court to the wool-sack^ 
and of leaving to the lawyer the op- 
portunity of giving to the crown his 
best services, and to die crown the 
opportunity of finding for them an 
adequate and suitable reward. For 
his own part, he could not see any 
objection to the union of the two 
characters in the same individual, 
especially as they were far, very fer, 

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ftom being inconsistent with each 
other. When the advocates for the 
separation told him that they saw 
a great objection to makinga political 
character a judge, he was inclined to 
ask them what the situation of the 
country would be, supposing that 
there were placed at the head of the 
hereditary magistracy of the land an 
individual unacquainted with its laws 
and institutions. Would not such 
an occurrence lower the respect in 
which they were now universally held 
throughout the country? and if it 
did lower the standard of the ma- 
gistracy and the dignity of the peer- 
age, would it not be inflicting a se- 
vere and permanent injury on the 
constitution, instead of correcting 
one that was comparatively trivial and 
temporary ? It had not occurred twice 
in the history of the country, that the 
cold impailiality of the judge had gi- 
ven way to the warmth of his political 
passions ; and if in the long night of 
ignorance in which so much of our 
annals were involved, not more than 
two instances of this judicial profli- 
gacy could be discovered, he thought 
that he was not too bold in saying 
that at an eera so intelligent as the 
present such instances were not like- 
ly to occur a^in. To avoid, how- 
ever, a contingency which he con- 
tended was remote and improbable, 
it was now proposed to convert the 
lord chancellor into a mere lawyer — 
to destroy all the ancient grandeur 
and dignity of his office, and to de- 
grade as much as possible the race 
of men from which it had hitherto 
been usual to select that ancient and 
distinguished officer. To such a pro- 
position he had formerly felt, and 
he still continued to feel, the strong- 
est aversion Diifering, therefore, as 
he did upon this important point, 
from the hon. and learned member 
hr Lincoln, he could not consent to 



allow the commission to direct its in 
quiries to the propriety of separating 
the legal and judicial functions of the 
lord chancellor. As he agreed in 
almost every other point vnth the 
honourable member for Lincoln, he 
had thought it necessary to speak 
rather more fully on the only point 
upon which he differed from him. 

As to the object of the commis- 
sion, the honourable member and 
himself fully concurred — it was to 
shorten the delays, simplify the pro- 
ceedings, and diminish the expense 
of the court of chancery. 

The right honourable gentleman 
then concluded his speech, amid ge- 
neral cheering, by again rejoicing 
that the personal chauracter of lord 
Eldon, of which he spoke in terms 
of the highest eulogy, had been 
treated with the respect due to it by 
every person who had joined in the 
debate. 

Mr, Browi/Aam explained. He had 
never dreamed of directii^ this com- 
mission to inquire into the abuses of 
the common law courts ; he thought 
that if they performed their duty pro- 
perly, they would find sufficient em- 
ployment in prying into the abuses 
of the court of chancery. 

Mr. Williams rose to reply. He 
observed, that he should have exe- 
cuted his duty in a very improper 
manner, if he had attributed pre-emi- 
nence to any plan of his own for im- 
proving the condition of the suitors 
in chancery. What he had wished 
to impress upon the house, and still 
more upon the country was, that the 
state of the court of chancery was 
such as to call for the most serious 
attention and consideration of parlia- 
ment. Afler what had just fallen 
from the right honourable secretary, 
it would not be civil, candid, or de- 
corous to do more than express a 
doubt of the ultimate progress of this 
proposed 



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proposed commission ; but he trusted 
that he might be permitted to say, 
without giving offence, that it might 
be oompoeed of certain elements (to 
use the r^ht honourable gentleman*s 
own wor£) which could not fail to 
create,— he would not say a suspicion, 
— but a strone: apprehension that the 
inquiry woulcl be productive of no 
beneficial consequences. He found- 
ed that (pinion upon a presentiment 
which he had, that the commission 
might be composed of members of 
his own profession. Now it was his 
opinion tnat a worse composed com- 
mission could not be fotmed, espe- 
cially if the members of it were to be 
selected by lord Eldon, or the mem- 
bers of his majesty's government. 
In saying this he was strongly sup- 
ported by former precedents. In the 
reign of James I., when the house 
haa determined to form a grand com- 
mittee to inquire into the abuses of 
courts of justice, the king sent down 
a message to it, stating that he would 
institute the inquiry himself. Sir E. 
Coke, and die independent members 
who had promoted the inquiry sent 
back their acknowledgments to king 
James for his gracious intentions, told 
him that they were deeply obliged 
to him ibr his kindness, but utat 
they preferred inquiring for them- 
selves, having previously agreed in 
private tl^t the king's offer of in- 
quiry was only made to stifle all in- 
quiry whatever. For his own part, he 
must say that he knew no set of men 
who were so enamoured of existing 
abuses and so accustomed to mistake 
Ibrms for substance as the members 
of that profe^ion to which he be- 
loi^ed. (A laugh.) Could he for- 
get the manner in which two com- 
missions had acted, in which they 
had formed the principal part?— 
Could he forget what the com- 
missioners appointed to examine 
into the fees taken in the courts 



of justice had done, or latlier what 
they had not done.^ (Hear, hear.) 
Could he foi^t that, when sir 
Samuel Romilly denounced certain 
laws as absurd to reason and fright- 
ful to humanity, — when there was 
scarcely a man in the oountiy that 
was not anxious to obliterate from 
the statute book certain obsolete 
enactments which rendered an act 
committed one yard in the water a 
capital offence, whilst they treated 
it as a trivial misdemeanor when 
committed one yard from the same 
place on dry ground,— could he for- 
get that no man in the empire was 
found to controvert the propriety of 
repealing those sanguinary and in- 
consistent statutes, except those who 
had devoted themselves to the pro- 
fession of the law ? (Hear, hear.) 
The learned judges of the land had 
opposed themselves with great per- 
tinacy to the alteration ; and he could 
find no other reason for their opposi- 
tion than this— that as they had spent 
the whole of their lives in learning 
the knowlec^ of those laws which 
change would render valueless, they 
could not afford to lose the little 
stock of treasure which their plodding 
industry had at last acquired. (A 
laugh.) Therefore it was that he 
predicted that if the commission were 
selected from those who had been 
acci]8tomed to walk in the trammels 
of the law, the country would find 
that it was nothing else than mockery 
and deception. He had, however, no 
objection to letting the 'oommissioa 
have a fair trial, under the eye of the 
house, and under the eye of the 
country. If it should produce bene- 
ficial results, all would be well— *he 
should be satisfied, and, what was 
more important, the country would 
be content (Cheers.) If, however, 
at the end of a reasonable time, 
it should be foimd to be a com- 
mission for screening abuses fix>m 
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uMpniy, and not for inquiring in- 
to abuses, then he ventured to pre- 
dict, that with tenfold force of argu- 
ment, and with a hundredfold force 
of remonstrance, public opinion 
would revert to this important sub- 
ject (Hear.) 

He was happy that he had at 
length obtained an admission that 
inquiiy was necessary. He recol- 
lected that at the discussion which 
they had on the same question last 
session, pompous eulogiums were 
made, not, indeed, on the indivi- 
dual who supported the system, but 
on the system itself. Ministers, how- 
ever, had now found out that it was 
in vain to shut th^ir eyes any longer ; 
and that whether they liked it or no, 
they must consent to some investiga- 
tion of the abuses complained of. 
With regard to the speech of the 
right honourable gentleman opposite, 
he could not help observing that he 
had not replied to the arguments 
which he had urged, but had replied 
to the arguments which he had not 
urged. (A laugh.) The right hon. 
gentleman had entered into a labour- 
ed eulogium of the lord chancellor, 
which he trusted would be as satis- 
factory to the person on whom it 
was made, as it appeared to be to the 
person who made it ; but what had 
it to do with any topics which he 
(Mr. Williams) had introduced, he 
could not discover ; nor had the right 
honourable gentleman had the kind- 
ness to inform him. He begged leave 
also to inform the right honourable 
gentleman, that he (Mr. Williams) 
nad never pronounced any opinion 
on the propriety of dividing the legal 
and political functions of the lord 
chancellor; all that he had stated 
was, that in times of less emeigency 
Aan the present, different opinions 
had been entertained on the point, 
and therefore it was that he tlK>u^ht 
there might perhaps be a necessity 



for inquiring into it In stating tliat 
question, he had only stated wlfflt he 
felt, when he said thiat if it were wise 
that the other judges of the land should 
keep themselves aloof from political 
intngu^ it could not be a recom- 
mendation to the lord chancellor, the 
first judge in the land, to be identified 
as the head and front of the great 
predominant faction in the state. — 
(Hear, hear.) It was an exception to 
the general rule, and an exception 
which, . he conceived, created in the 
people an un&vourable opinion re- 
garding the administration of justice. 
All that he had meant to say, and all 
that he believed he had said, on this 
point was, that it was fit matter for 
inquiry. He repeated that opinion, 
notwithstanding the beauties of the 
present practice, which the right hon. 
secretary had so elabomtely detailed 
to the house- 

The learned member, in conclu- 
sion of a reply of which we can only 
give the outline, observed, that if the 
present promises of ministers sliould 
prove insincere, and if their commis- 
sion should appear to have screened 
abuse instead of detecting it, he should 
revert vrith increased strength of ar- 
gument to the necessity of instituting 
an inquiry in the commons house of 
parUament, to which at this veiy mo- 
ment he must own that he should 
give the preference. (Hear.) 

The motion was then vrithdrawn 
by consent 

The Chancellor of the Exchequer 
moved that the report of the com- 
mittee on the four per cent acts be 
brought up. — The resolutions were 
then agreed to. 

On a motion being made by the 
Chancellor of the Exchequer^ diat 
the house go into a committee on 
the convention for the repayment of 
2,500,000/. by Austria, in lieu of 
the debt due to this countiy, 

Mr, Hume begged to ask a ques- 
tion 



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tioQ about the slate of the BusBian 
loan, as we were now to accept of a 
Gompositioa from the emperor of 
Austria. The government of Russia 
bad borrowed 3,000,000/. from this 
country, which he (Mr. Hume) be- 
lieved had been employed to prepare 
for war with us. We had continued 
to pay the interest on that loan at 
five per cent but were still told that 
we should be indenmified Now what 
he wished to know was, whether there 
was any probabihty of repa^pient; 
because if there was not, tms debt 
should be consolidated with our other 
debt, and the interest reduced like 
that of our other securities. If we 
were bound to pay that money, we 
should not at least be bound to pay 
five per cent, for it when the interest 
might be reduced to three and a 
half. 

The QumceUoT of the Exchequer 
answered, that he could not give a 
direct reply to this question. The 
idea expressed by the hon. member 
had likewise struck him, but he had 
not yet examined the treaty so far as 
k) bie able to say how his purpose 
could be carried mto execution. 

Mr. Baring observed, tliat the 
loan in question was not made to 
enable Russia to make war on this 
country ; but it was advanced for 
a purpose which his hon. friend 
would perhaps think as imjustifiable. 
The money was advanced to the em- 
press Catherine, and employed by 
her in preparations for overthrowing 
the lib^es and independence of Po- 
land. It was a joint loan of England 
and Holland. 

The house then went into a com- 
mittee. 

The Chancellor of the ExfjJiequer 
stated, that hitherto the loan to the 
emperor of Austria had been kept 
separately from the other three per 
cent, consolidated annuities. As, 



however^ a tteaty had been enteMd 
into to annul the liabihty of Austria 
for this debt in consideration of an 
advance of two and a half millions, it 
would not be necessary to continue 
this arrangement any longer. If the 
committee, therefore, sanctioned the 
terms of this convention, the distinc- 
tion between this and the other parts 
of the public debt should cease, and 
the imperial annuities should he coom 
solidated with the other three per 
cents. 

Mr. Hume was not prepared to 
agree to a resolution for sanctioning 
& terms ag;reed to by government 
The committee was told that Austria 
had consented to advance two and a 
half millions to this country ; but by 
the mode in which the paymente 
were made into the exchequer, the 
receipts fell considerably short of that 
amount. Here there was only an un- 
fair diminution of our just claim, but 
even an unfair reduction below the 
amount actually stipulated for. Why, 
he would ask, were the contractors, 
Reid, Rothschild, Baring, and Co. 
to receive five per cent for tlieir dis- 
counts, when others were only re- 
ceiving three and a half? Why had 
such a preference been given to diem 
over others — a preference which 
would cost upwards of 50,000/. ? 

Mr. Herries repUed, that by the 
papers on the table the character in 
which the contractors stood to go- 
vernment would be seen, and it would 
be made manifest that government 
did not negotiate with them as parties 
proposing to advance a loan to this 
country. In ofifering the terms agreed 
to, they acted as the representatives 
of the emperor of Austria for the 
payment of such a sum as he was 
disposed to grant The rate of dis- 
count, in case of the immediate ad- 
vance of the whole sum, was as much 
a part of the original contract as the 
amount 



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amount of the contribution itsel£ 
They submitted certain conditions to 
the treasury, of which this rate of 
discount was one, and government 
had no option but to accept or reject 
^e whole. It was not in the power 
of the treasury to give less than five 
■per cent as the contractors would not 
receive less. The whole sum had 
^been accordingly paid into the trea- 
airy, and the stipulated discount al- 
lowed. 

Mr. Hume professed himself still 
dissatisfied widi the statement and 
defence of this transaction. The 
British government had made no 
treaty with the contractors, but with 
the emperor of Austria. The em- 
peror had been praised last night 
for the generosity and honesty of his 
character. He had engaged to ad- 
vance two millions and a half with- 
out deductions. If five per cent, dis- 
tx>unt were demanded by the con- 
tractors for immediate payment, when 
others only received three and a half 
.per cent the country would be de- 
frauded to the. amount of the differ- 
ence. He was anxious to see the 
contractor's letter as well as the mi- 
nute of the treasury. We had either 
contracted with his imperial majesty 
to receive two and a half millions, or 
we had not If we had, we should 
have received that sum wthout any 
.deduction, and the contractors had 
no right to demand more than com- 
mon interest for their discounts. If 
we had not, why speak of the gene- 
rosity of the emperor, and state at 
two and a half millions a repayment 
short of that amoimt ? 

Mr. Grenfell said a few words, 
the purport of which we could not 
■catch. 

Mr, Baring observed, that he would 
make a short explanation, though his 
personal interest in the subject before 
the committee might seem to render 



alenoe most becoming. He was, 
however, in this traasaction» quite 
independent of the opinion of the 
committee. The strict diplomatic 
character of that transacticm, it would 
puzzle most people to describe. It 
was both political and financial: po- 
litical at Vienna, and financial at 
London. The contractors had to ar- 
range with the government of this 
countiy the amount they would pay 
in consideration of their engagement 
with Austria, and the interest of fivt 
per cent on discounts composed a 
part of the original contract Go- 
vernment might accept or not the 
offers made it ; but he would say, 
though only five himdred' more had 
been required, at the peril of break- 
ing off the negotiation, that five 
hundred would not have been given. 
The public funds of Austria had im- 
proved since the settlement of her 
account with this country, but at the 
time of the contract those who entered 
into it couki not have accepted of 
other terms. 

Mr, Canning said, thait Austria 
had offered 2,500,000/. ; but the 
raising of that sum depended on her 
powers of borrowing. The govern- 
ment of this country desired to have 
gendemen here responsible for the 
payment. They made their terms 
with Austria, and the treasury here 
had it in their option to accept or 
not The five per cent interest on 
discount formed part of the original 
contract, which would not have been 
agreed to without that condition. 

Mr, Hume still contended thai 
there was a loss of 50,000/. on this 
transaction, and that if the credit of 
Austria did not allow the contradois 
to give more for a nominal amount 
of her money dian 2,450,000/. that 
nominal amount should have been 
raised so as to affoid the 2,500,000/. 

without any deduction. 

The 



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11le£%imo6abr of ike Ex(Aequier 
tud that the honourable gentleman 
hboiired under a mistake, m soppos- 
ii^ that the -agreement with the Aus- 
trian government -fer two and a half 
milhons was made first, 'and the dis- 
count aettted with the contractors 
afterwards. The Austrian govern- 
ment gave thir^ millions m their 
money, for which the contractors of- 
fered to jpay two and a half miUions 
on condition of the rate of discount 
If ^ treasuiy had not accepted of 
their terms, ue money could not 
have been received. 

Mr. Wane shoidd wish to see the 
Austiian Htate pe^, in which the 
emperor, acknowieci^ng a debt of 
twenty millions, had the assurance 
to propose a composition of two and 
a half. He recolkcted that when the 
honourable member for Buckingham- 
shire (Mr. Smith) brought forward a 
motion on the subject, the late lord 
Londonderry, in his peculiar manner, 
treated the matter with great indiffer- 
ence, and said, that though we coukl 
^ turn the whole country inside out, 
we coukl get nothing." The r^ht 
honourable gendeman (Mr. Canning) 
had been more successful; but what 
was two and a half motions, fi^r an 
orienial principal sum of sixnullions, 
a^ its accumtdations, for which Mr. 
Pitt bsKl said we could sue the em- 
peror in his own court ? After some 
further remarks, the hon. member 
said — at any rate, he should like to 
see the attempt at reasoning by which 
Austria would show that she thought 
•die had acted jusdy and honourably 
l^ paying 2,500,000^ in discharge 
ofadebtof22,000,000i: 

Mr. Canmng said, that succeeding 
as he had done to the managment of 
the nee^otiation after it had attained 
a certain point, he neither would at- 
tempt to take credit to himself that 
/SO much had been obtained, neither 
1824.] 



did he fed sbeane because in the (i^H- 
nion of some gentlemen the amount to 
be received was so smaU. But tlds 
he wouM say, speaking as an indivi- 
dual, and not as a minister, he should 
have entertained great doi:d)ts whether 
he should have called iq)on Austria 
for any payment at all! Ead the 
question beein tried in a court of ho- 
nour, he much doubted whether it 
would not have been so deckled. Bk 
would tell the honourable ^demen 
the transaction, which, in his opinion, 
had weakened our claim upon Aus- 
tria. If, in private life, a man hav- 
ing a ckdm on another,and when aJl 
hope of getting payment had vanish- 
ed, he should, on the settlement of a 
subsequent account, pay over a ba- 
lance to him, that debtor would cer- 
tainly feel himself acquitted of the 
former transaction. In 1805, to in- 
duce Austria to join the coalition 
against France, a subsidy was grant- 
ed to her. Afterwards tne Austrians 
made peace with France, and there 
being an arrear of subsidy due to huer, 
this government paid over that arrear, 
although she was then at peace, and 
almost in alliance with ranee, aikL 
we were stUl at war with that coun- 
try. If we conceived we had any 
claim against Austria, that was the 
time to have made the demand. We 
should then have kept our claim 
alive ; but paying Austna that mon^ 
on a subsequent account was enough 
to induce a sort of honourable under- 
standing that we gave up all foraier 
claims. 

Mr. Hume said the r^t honoura- 
ble gentleman had confounded toge- 
ther two things that were entir^ 
dissimilar — ^loans and subsidies. He 
would make the case clear : Suppose 
an individual had advanced a sum to 
another person on mortgage, and had 
subsequently made a bai^^dn'to pur- 
chase some goods from him, for midi 
K he 



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he paid'T^was there any moonsmtency 
in that man Gonmg afterwards vA 
claiming his mortga^ ? He should 
liketQ seethe account cunentin which 
die kerns of set off were stated; ifit 
were not rendered, it would ajroear, 
as a learned gentleman had said on 
a firmer occasion, like the composi- 
tion widi an insolvent, and literallv 
taking half-a-crown in the pound. 
13ie nght honoisaUe gentleman (the 
ohanodkrr of the excl^uer) states 
that we made a bargain for thirty 
millions of Austrian stock ; but in 
that he was wrong. Mr. Hume here 
referred to the words of the treaty, 
which were— '« 2,500,000/. sterling 
to be paid into the British treasury;" 
and though the following article stated 
that the money was to to paid by the 
houses of Baring and Co. and Roths- 
dnld, of London, ** according to such 
terms as should be agreed upon" 
{hear, hear) ; yet he contended that 
the terms were plainly as set forth 
in the first article of the treaty. 

The resolutions were then agreed 
to, and another, relative to the same 
sdbrject; after which the house re- 
sumed. The report was ordered to 
be received to-morrow. 

The other orders of the day were 
then disposed o^ and the house ad- 
journed at haL^past eleven o'clock. 

Feb. 27. — ^The house being in a 
oommitbee» 

jSi«r Henry Hcffdinge rose to move 
the oidnance estimates, and he was 
happy to inform the committee, that 
there was a considerable diminution 
in every branch of the ordnance 
establishment In die last year, the 
total sum to be expended was 
1,217,920/. ; in the present year it 
was 1,119,774/., being less by 
28,146/. than last year ; and if from 
thai sum were deducted the barracks, 
which had been transferred from the 
ordnance estimates to the banack 



biaodi of the dqpaitmfit^ (here 
would remain a real diminution oi 
the ordnance of 67,0Q0/i— of which 
there was in the extraoidinaiies the 
very considemble sum of 55,000/1 ; 
but that very great saving he could 
not hope to consider as permanent* 
because in the last year tfe esrimatea 
for repairs had hem reduced to the 
very lowest amount* consistent with 
keeping the buildings in repair. He 
would, therefore, consider this sum 
of 55,000/. as a suspension rather 
than a diminution of ex{)endituie. 
Under the item of unprovided, the 
small sum of 1,000/. only was want- 
ed for this year. The smallneBs of 
the sum arose from the new mode of 
keeping short accounts established 
by the master-generaL This reaidt 
was the more gratifying, as this item 
was one of which tte house vras 
always iealous, as it was one for 
whidi mere was no estimate. The 
three items of ordinary, extraoidi- 
naiy, and unprovided, comprised the 
total charge for the effective ord- 
nance estimates, and fell bebwwhat 
the finance committee of 1818 had 
thoudit the ordnance could be re- 
duced to. This great reduction had 
been effected by 234 clerks being 
reduced; and although a great addi- 
tional labour had thus devolved up<m 
those who remained to do the duty, 
vet to them the gratuities which btul 
been objected to were disallowed. 
The next branch was the barracka,in 
which there was also no increase of 
charge, though there was an apparent 
increase. Thevotewas for 114^53 U 
—the last year's vote was 100,000/. ; 
so that there vras an apparent iib> 
crease of 14,000/.; biA 16,000/. 
ougl^ to be deduct^ for repairs, 40 
that in the barrack Iwanch tnere was 
a saving also. Meven barrack sta- 
tions had been reduced; and in order 
to show the committee the saving 

that 



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'tet bad 'been effected nnce the 
peEne, he would inform them that 
w^ had, during the war, barracks for 
167,000 men, vHach were now re* 
doced to what was snlfficient for 
42,000 men, being a reduction of 
faairacks for 125,000 men. The 
expense daring the war amounted 
10 620,000^, now the amount was 
120,000/., 80 that these was a total 
saving of half a million; the Irish 
partof the vote amounted to 134,000/. 
m this vote there was an excess of 
23,000/. to which, adding 5,000/. 
for barracks transferred, there was a 
vol increase of 28,000/., which was 
to be attributed to the expense of the 
repairs of barracks. During the last 
sammer, a committee of inspection 
had visited the whole of the bar« 
radEs, and it was from their report 
4hat die i^esent estimates were form- 
ed Dinring the war, there were 
barracks for 80,000 men ; now there 
were barracks for 36,000 men, to 
whacb might be added, 3,000 moi, 
that could be lodged in houses. In 
the blanch of commissariat of stores, 
the vote was 182,795i:,being90,000/: 
more than last year. This increase 
arose from a cause which he hoped 
the house would approve. It arose 
firam a ^Bnoply of 24,000 iron bed«> 
stesids. The soldiers had been hi- 
therto in double births, which might 
be necessary in time of war; but 
eeitamly there was no occasion »fbr 
such an arrangement during peace. 
The d0iA>le births were formed by 
stages erected in the apartment, so 
that in Some instances there were 
four beds in depth. To remedy this 
inconvenience to men who had de- 
served so well of their country, this 
additional expense was incurred. 
(Hear, hear.) There was also an 
increase of charge on account of 
stores sent to New South Wales and 
Sierra Leone. These two items of 
bedheads and additioi;ial store; would 



fblly account for die excess of the 
commissariat store branch. Havmg 
gone dnough the whole of die direis 

rit branches of the expouliture, 
would conclude by moving that 
the sum of 47,233/. be granted to 
his majesty for defraying the charge 
of die salaries of the master-general 
and officers employed at the Tower 
and Pall-mall. 

Mr. Hume said it was but justice 
to the gallant officer who had just 
sat down, to acknowledge that die 
estimates now on the table were 
much better arranged dian they had 
been heretofore. The gallant officer, 
in referring to the report of the fi- 
nance" committee, would recollect 
that committee gave only an ap- 
proximation to miat was to be ex- 
pected in each of the departments; 
and he would contend that they were 
still greatly above what they ought 
to be. He observed that the oki 
stores were still brought into these 
estimates, though he had understood 
from the chancdlor of the exchequer 
that they were to be included in the 
ways and means. That was the case 
wiUi the navy estimates, and he saw 
no reason why it should not be so in 
diese estimates. According to the 
present mode, they only served to 
prevent a fkir comparison being 
made by an unnecessary diminution 
of die sums total, b^nd which 
many persons never looked. The 
house wotdd be surprised, perhaps, 
to find that the estimates for the ord- 
nance were tbree times as great as 
they were in his (Mr. Humes's) golden 
era of 1792. Were there, he would 
ask, any circumstances in the state 
of the country to warrant such a 
difference ? m his humble opinion 
there was not In 1792, the ord- 
nance estimates were 444,000/1; 
in 1817, 1,284,000^; m 1818, 
l,212,000i; in 1821, 1,326,000/1; 
in 1822, 1,244,000/.; in 1823, 
1,217.000/. ; 



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1,217,000/.; uid now 1,119,000/. 
He would ask the committee, whe- 
tber, after the report of the xnilitaiy 
commission which had been express- 
ly appointed to incpie into these 
•ul^eds, he was not justified in call- 
ing upon his majesty's government 
to comply with the recommendations 
of diat commission ? The proodsed 
vote for the expenses of m& Tower 
and the Pall-mall establishments was 
47,000/. This, he was sure, might 
be reduced at least one-thinL He 
had, upon a former occasion, stated 
the amount of the ordnance esta- 
btishment in 1796, and had moved 
that the present expenditure should 
be approximated to that amount 
To accomplish this object, he pro- 
posed the measure of uniting the two 
departments, and thus saving at once 
from 17,000/. to 18,000/. annually: 
but it seemed, as well firom his ill 
success on that occasion, as from the 
present vote, that there was an ex- 
traordinary pertinacity in keeping 
up the amount. 

In ihe course of the last session, 
he had submitted to the house the 
propriety of doing away with the 
office of the lieutenantr^neral. It 
was then objected by a right hon. 
gentleman that the business of the 
Tower could not go on without the 
presence of that officer, and upon 
this ground it was that the motion 
was refused. He (Mr. Hume) would 
now, therefore, ask whether lord 
Beresford, the lieutenant-general of 
te ordnance, had-tiot b^n absent 
from his post the greater pait of the 
year, ana whether he was not now 
m Poitugal ? He had heard, within 
the last two or three weeks, indeed, 
that another lieutenant-general had 
been appointed, but he did not know 
whether the fact was so or not. Hie 
duties of the lieutenant-ffenend had, 
however, been p^rfonn^ during his 
absence, and this confinped him 



(Mr. Hume) in the opinion he had 
before entertained of^ the praotica- 
biUty of reduction. If it could be 
effected in one instance, it was 
equally practicable in others, and he 
called upon the hoiise to try the ex* 
periment upon the present occasion. 
In the year 1796, the fourth year of 
the war, it appeared by a report of a 
committee of the house,of which the 
late speaker was chairman, that the 
total amount of the establishments 
in Pdl-mall and at the Tower was 
15,500/. ; now, in time of peace, it 
was 47,000/. It was impossible, 
under any circumstances, even if the 
country were ten times richer than it 
is, and the debt not one quarter of 
its present amount, that such an in- 
crease could be warranted. This 
was the first time we had been told 
that our expenditure was now res 
duced to its lowest pitch, and it was 
now, therefore, that the house must 
consider whether the vote oi^ht to 
be reduced or not. If they left' a 
sum of 30,000/. or 36,000/:, which 
would be twice the amount of the 
year 1798, the committee would see 
that in a week the whole establisb* 
ment would be re-modelled. The 
office of clerk of the ordnance wasy 
he beheved indispensably neoessaiy, 
and its duties were ably perfonnea ; 
but that of the principal storekeper, 
whose salaiy, exclusive of fees, 
amounted to 750/L, might be dis* 
pensed with, by the removal of the 
whole depot While he was upon 
this subject, he would state that he 
held in his hand a statement of the 
fees received by the stordoftper for 
the admission to view the armory in 
the Tower. He knew of no law 
that justified colonel Maclean, who 
in 1806 raised these fees from Is. to 
2s. for each person. The same 
charges were kept up to this time^ 
and appeared to produce a sum of 
400/. per annum; Of this, 14s.' in 

thP 



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N9 



tlie pomid was paid to. the principal 
fltorekeeper* and the remainder was 
divided amongst other officers. He 
concluded by moving that 10,000£. 
should be reduced from the proposed 
votes, which would reduce the amount 
to 37,000^, and would be double 
the amount for 1796. 

The amendment was then put. 

Sir H, Hardinge did not know 
exactly to which point the honour- 
dble member's objections applied — 
whether they were respectii^ the 
establishment of the ordnance, or 
confined to the case of the lieutenant- 
eeneral. (Mr. Hume said «< Both.") 
He would tell the committee that, in 
the Fall-mall department, out of 187 
clerks, 27 had been reduced. The 
labour which was thrown upon the 
others was veiy great, as well from 
^ diminution of number as firom 
the additional business of the barrack 
and commissariat departments which 
bad been transferred to them ; and 
yet the hon. member proposed to 
reduce them still farther. As to the 
objection made by the honourable 
member respecting the old stores, he 
begged to point out that this was the 
mode |)articularly recommended by 
the military finance conunittee, and 
had been adopted in consequence of 
that recommendation. Widi respect 
to the absence of the lieutenant- 
general, he could assure the com- 
mittee, that although the noble lord 
had been unavoidably absent on his 
nrivate business, the conduct of the 
Doavd of ordnance had been perfectly 
justifiable. In the first dace, as to 
that more immediately affecting the 
character of the noble lord in this 
transaction, it was well known that 
the noble lord commanded the Poiu 
tugnese army, and that upon his 
return from Kto Janeiro the revolu- 
tionaiy party then in power, very 
wisely for tblemselves, perhaps, pre- 



vented his landing. Whem afW-. 
waids an opportunity ofibred for -his 
returning thither, and he was sum-, 
moned to do so, he asked leave of 
the master-general, who* gianted it, 
and he went to Lisbon in the begin- 
ning of October last At the eiu of 
November, the master-general wrote 
to him, reauirii^ his return by the 
latter end or December^ for the pur- 
pose of discharging the duties of his 
office. To this letter, lord Beresford 
replied, by sending in his resigna- 
tion, and infonning the master- 
general, that the state of his pivate 
affairs at Lisbon rendered it impos- 
sible for him then to quit it As to 
the duties of his office^ they were 
twofold : first, he had to conduct the 
business of the department in the: 
absence of the master-^eral ; and 
secondly, to perform his own duties 
as a board officer. Since his ab- 
sence the first had never occurred, for 
the master-general had always been 
present £>me inconvenience had 
been felt as to the second ; but the 
business had in no case been suft- 
pended. A great part of it had been^ 
transacted by the master-general and 
the officers of the board, particularly 
his honourable friend behind, who, 
with some others, had, to his know- 
ledge, been engaged for a considera-, 
ble time between eight and ten houis 
a day. (Hear, hear). They had done, 
this with the utmost cheerfulness, in 
the hope of the noble lord's return. 
The hon. member would ask, why. 
the appointment of a lieutenantr ,. 
general was not made in Decern-, 
ber last? He (^ir H. Haidinge) 
replied, that it was because his lord- 
ship's services had been so valuable 
that the master-general kept his re- 
signation; said he, as well as the 
other officers, preferred to do his 
duty themselves while any chance of 
his return remained. Fmding, how- 
ever* 



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•fcr, laA mek, tfast this wai ttill 
UBceitain, the masler-genenl Heh 
oompelled to accept the retignation; 
and ^ name of mr Geoise Muriay 
(upon Vfboae dwringniahed merits it 
was imnecessaiy for him then to en^ 
lai^e) had heen salnnitted to his 
mqeity» who had been pleased to 
appoint that gallant officer to the 
postoflieiitenimtpgfcDemL Thehon. 
member*8 pnnposal to transfer the 
establishment nom Pall-mall to the 
Tower, or from the Tower to Patt- 
mally was totally imnacticable; it* 
was impossible that both could be 
accommodated in either place. As 
to transporting the stores to Wool* 
wich, tms had been ahready done, as 
ragaided the ordnance, in conformity 
to the su^igestions of the mililaiy 
CQomiitteef and only the arms and 
lif^iter stores remained in the Tower* 
As a saving of 90,000/. had been 
effiscted since 1819, and the vote for 
this year was diminished in that sum 
upon the expenditure and not upon 
the vote, he really thought the Ikxd* 
aaember had no r^^t to quarrel with 
it (Hear, hear.) 

Mr. Ihume explained, and the 
house divided^ when the numbem* 



Por Mr. Hume's amendment, 19 -— 
Aflainstit, 89— Majorky, 70. 

Upon our return to the gallety, we 
found the chairman putting the vote 
of 7,029/. for ^ departments, at 
Woolwidi, which was agreed to. 

Upon the motion diat 35,841/, be 
gsanted for the stations at home and 
moad, 

Mr. Ihtme said, that unlesiv the 



ffoveniment woiddoonqpel CoifiiaMf 
Zante, and other places in te lonianr 
Ues, to keep vp their own establish* 
ments as they were able to do, and 
as by the treaties they ought, he did 
not see how any reduction could Ym 
effected in this item. 

The votes of 4,143/. formasteiw 
gunners, and of 67,834/. for the 
corps of en8;ineers, sappers, and mi^ 
ners were men agreed ta 

The vote of 247,208/1 for the 
raiment of artillery, agreed to. 

The next motion was for the sum 
of 29,590i: to defray the expenses of 
the brigade of royal hone aitiUerf » 
rocket and riding troops.-— Agreed to; 
The next motion was for the sum 
of 1,788/. for defraying the expenses 
of the director-generu of the field 
train.— Agreed to. 

£7,044. for decaying the expend 
of the medical department of tiieonU- 
nance.— ^Agreed to. 

£4,570. for defraying the expenses 
of the establidmient of professorBy 
masters, &c., of the Royal Military 
Acadenw, at Woohrich. 

£75,524. to defray the expense of 
certain extraordinaries in the colonies 
and islands of Great Britain, deduct- 
ing £35,000. for oki stores, &a 

£1,090. for the extraordinaries of 
the ordnance office not provided for. 
^Agreed to. 

£8,336. for the office of ordnance 
inlrdand 

The chairman reported progress* 
and asked leave to sit again, aiM the 
report was ordered to m received on 
Monday next.. 



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15! 



CHAP. U. 



Breadi of Primlege'''South AmenoOf^^West India Colonies •^^Spain^^Alimt, 

Act. 



WTOUSE of Qmmonsy March Ist 
"*^ — Mr^ Abercr&mby rose in his 
place to o(>m{dain of a most gnAss 
and nmvanantable attack upon nee- 
dom of ddbete in the house of com- 
mons. 

A sense of what he owed to him*- 
ael^ to die house, and tothe profess 
sion of whidi he was «i memher, 
imposed upon him die duty of com- 
phttsing of dus attack from die seat 
of pdbfic josdce, smd hy the lord 
loffi chancellor of Ei^land. 

^ On Satmday morning, (proceed- 
ed Mr. Abercromby), I hsq^ened to 
be in die court of exchequer, when a 
person widi whom I had no intimate 
acquaintance, but of whose accuracy, 
t^racter, and honour, I had no 
ground to entertain the smallest 
doubt, addresKd me to this efiect :*- 
He came to me and said, * Mr. Aber- 
eromby, I have just heard a reply 
from the lord chanceUor to what you 
said upon Mr. Williams*s motion.' I 
dien asked what it was that the ioid 
chancellor had said; to which heatt- 
swoned, 'The lord chancdbr has 
Hoputed to you, that you have sent 
fardi an utter fidsehood to the pub- 
lic.' I then asked him if he was sure 
he laboured under no mistsd&e. He 
answered, 'Certaiuly not; because 
diechancellOT referred to '<Qende- 
men with gowns on their hecks.' " 



He knew not how lord Ekfen was 
entided to animadvert from the seat 
of justice upon the conduct of th# 
members of that house, but he felt it 
to be due to himself not to let it nam 
over without calling for the sencms- 
attention of the house to the sdbjed^ 
hk the course of that evening, he had 
of himself, and without communis 
eating with any other person, come 
to the opinion that he could not suf- 
fer it to pass without observation. He 
then took care to state to a gende- 
man of the profession, who held a 
seat in the house, and whom he knew 
to DC in the intimacy of k>rd Hdonv 
titot it was his intention to bring the 
whole subject before the house ; that* 
he was solely and exclusively ^ 
vemed by the sense of injustice which 
had been done to him, and the duty 
^diich he owed to the house. He 
fenther revested that the lord chan-^ 
cellot'smind might be invited to a 
calm deliberation upon die expreft>- 
sions which he had used ; and unless' 
he were to alter his resolution before 
Monday morning, he wished it to be 
understood that it was his inteiltioh 
to complain to the house, which he 
mentioiied in order to give the gen-* 
deman to whom he was speaking, or 
any other person who might be re- 
quested, an opportunity to attend; 
and that so that friend, whoever he 

might 



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might be, of the loid chancelbr, 
sfaauld be enabled to state to his 
lordship, My and &ithfully» all that 
he (Mr. Abercromby J would say. He 
had no doubt of tnat information 
having been faithfully communicated 
to the noble lord. 

He had now stated, as clearly as 
he could, the means which he had 
taken of ascertaining, with precision, 
the veiy expresraons which the lord 
chanceUor used. It was material to 
observe what meaning was given in 
the apprehension of others by the 
statement of his lordship. He would 
DOW state what those expressions 
were— and for that purpose he would 
read the report of them, as they were 
conveyed to the public by the news- 
papers — which in point of fact was 
accurate, and was further corrobo- 
ittted by the short4iand writer's 
notes :-^<* As it had been represented 
that the person who sits nere, did 
mischief by hearing certain motions 
widioot the signature of counsel — 
that is to say, when motions have 
been made to discharge an order of 
the vice chancellor, or the master' of 
the rolls, that such motions have been 
brought on without the signature of 
counsel— I have onlyt» state, that 
having been in thi»court since 1778, 
whenever a motion had been made 
before the master of the rolls, which 
he had refused to allow, or which he 
did aUow— and upon an qiplication 
to the chancellor to vary what the 
master of the rolls had done, or to 
destroy it altogether ; so again, when- 
ever a motion had been made before 
(he vice chancellor, and counsel had 
been of opinion that the motion had 
been improperly granted or dis- 
charged, the party luui always in all 
those cases been at liberty to move 
a^pin, with a view to set the matter 
nght; andifthesignatareofcoimsel 
were necessary to alter the piactke 



of the court as it hud obtained sincer 
the period I have mentioned, all I 
can say is, that I have not a nght to^ 
tax the king's subjects in that way* 
With respect to aj^peals and rehear- 
ings, it is supposed that I have heard 
them on new evidence, and thereby 
brou^ discredit on some part of the 
court It is an utter falsehood.*' He 
would take the oj^rtunity of saying 
tkut there was nothing in the business 
before lord Eldon wmch could have 
called for the animadversions; they 
must luLve been altogether premedi- 
tated. 

He went on with the statement — 
" On re-heaiines, it is always com- 
petent to read Uie evidence given in 
Uie cause, though it was not read in^ 
the court below, either by the judge- 
or the counsel : furthor than that ttiMe 
court does not eo. On appeals, it- 
only reads what has been r«ad in the 
court below, and that practice I have 
never departed from in any one in- 
stance. Therefore, really, before 
things are so represented, particularly' 
by gentlemen with gowns on their 
backs, they should at least take care 
to be accurate, for it is their business' 
to be sow" Upon which a Mr. A. 
observed to his lordship — ** Upon 
motions it would be impossible for 
counsel to certify." To that the lord 
chancellor rephed— *< Such modona- 
as I have referred to have been made 
for half a century, and never with* 
the signature of counsel ; and yet the 
public are told that the ognatore of 
counsel is necessary by act of parlia- 
nfot, and that I have dispensed with 
it" He postponed the details as to 
the expreasions which the lord chan- 
celkir imputed to him as the grounds 
of his animadversions, until he put 
the house in possession of what he 
had actually said. Who was it that 
uttered these expressicms? The lord 
chancdknr of EAefaiid. From whal 



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159 



{>h6e did he utter them? Fromthe- 
seatof justice. Was it to be tolerated 
tliEBt infividtols should be aocned 
from the seat of justice oi uttering 
fiJsehoods ? But, said the honoura- 
ble member, nvhat was the factp^ 
ivfaat had been the expressions used 
to which the noble lord had alluded ? 
He stated d)en that opinion whidi he 
had always entertained-— *it was the 
first opinion in order, in that series 
of his amument, and therefore the 
better <a£n]lated to show the ten- 
dency of all the rest which he put 
imth upon the usefulness of that m* 
quirv. He took occasion to allude 
to the two cases of bankruptcy and 
lunacy. He stated that in scnne in- 
stances, it had been known that ap- 
plxation was made to the yiee chan- 
cellor for an order in a bankrupt 
pedtion, and, upon being refused; 
umnediate application was made to 
the lord chancellor; so that, in his 
view of the subject, it would be ma^ 
terial for the commissioners to remark 
in how many instances, occurring be- 
tween the years 1813 and 1819, the 
court had allowed such motion for 
orders to be appealed fiom without 
the signature of counsd. He further 
stated, that in the year 1819 a great 
and valuable alteration had been in- 
troduced, by which the signature of 
counsel was declared to be requisite. 
He stated the particular case which 
had Ted to die order, and in which, 
the signature of counsel not being 
appe^ed, l<»d Ekkm had ordered 
that the motion dKMdd be signed by 
counsd, which custom at present cour 
tinued. He had taken occasion to 
lemark, that one great objection to 
the vice chancellor's court was the 
increase of appeals, and the muhi- 
fdioution of business; and therefore 
one olgect, and the main one of the 
act which created that court, had 
f^led, by ne^ecdng to exclude ap- 
peals from it JHe had stated, that m 



appeals upon dedree^ or imon motions 
for further directions, the practice 
had always required that the petition 
should be signed by eounsel, which 
gave some security to the suitors 
against perverse litigation ; but that 
upon motions, there was no such se- 
curities, and that operated to die 
disadvantage of suitors generally; 
because the litigious parties would be 
likely to go immediately to lord El- 
don— -that they j^ only go to the 
lord chancellor, but they went with 
the best opportunity which could be 
furnished them of violating the sacred 
principle of appeal, with perhaps the 
worst evidence in their possession: 
for by discussion before the vice 
chancellor, they learnt the defect and 
weakness of their case, and that defect 
and weakness they readily supplied 
b^ore the lord chancellor. The con- 
sequence had been, was, and must 
be, that a case was commonly car- 
ried before the lord chancellor difier- 
ing essentially from that upon which 
the vice chanceUot pronounced ; and 
the further consecpience must be, that 
this abuse of the right of appeal, lead- 
ing to a difference of conclusion upon 
the same cases by the two jw^es, 
must prove derogatory to the dignity 
of the court Such, to the best of 
his recollection, was in effect the 
substance of hiis observations; and 
such^ he declared it to have been his 
intention to offer to the house at the 
time. (Hear.) What said the lord 
chancdlor on this subject ? The lord 
chancellor said that a considerable 
number of motions had been receiv- 
ed before the court of chancery on 
appeal, which had been decided up- 
on before l^ the master of ihe- roUs 
widiout the signatute of counsel. So 
he (Mr. Abeicromby^ had said : he 
had the sanction of the lord chancel- 
lor to confirm the accuracy of it 

If the house would not protect its 
members who engaged in discussion 

fipom 



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from despotism and tyraony-^and 
what tyranny) what de^tiam, couid 
exceed this? — ^woukl it not destioy 
ihe whole fieedom of debate?-^ 
(Cheers.) If such things must be 
endured, if lord Eldon miriit toy of 
any man as he had said of mm, what 
security had they ibr the freedom of 
debate? What would be the situa- 
tion of any gentleman who was at 
once a member of the law and of the 
house? He could not oerBuade him- 
self that there was no redress to be had* 
It was a fit case for the inteference of 
the house. If they refused redress — ^if 
they did not take some decisive and 
rigorous step to right themselves, the 
freedom of debate was gone — their 



privileges were gone— ii 
and public spirit were goner If such 
Aings could pass wiSiout remote 
Strance, and without redress, fare- 
weB also to independence and public 
Spirit, or any expectation of them, in 
the profession of the law. For if this 
were the situation of any gentleman 
who happened to be a member of 
the house, what meet be the situation 
of another who m^ht not have die 
same opportunity to do himself ri^t» 
that he (Mr. Abercromby) had, and 
wasobli^d, at the same time, to be 
more careftd of his views in the pro- 
fession? (Cheers.) He protested 
that he did not raise this question 
from any hostile feelings towards lord 
Eldon, (cheers), but because he con- 
sidered it as a most gross andunwar- 
tantable attack on the freedom <^de- 
bate. Feelmg that it would disgrace 
him for ever as a member of the 
house — tfiat it would disqualify him 
to continue in that profession to 
which he belonged, and that it would 
sink him down from his station and 
character as a gentleiodan— >he claim- 
ed of the house, in the first instance, 
to be allowed to prove the expres- 
sions used by lord Eldon at the bar 
of the house. That being done, it 



would be for the bous^ to determine 
what step should be next taken. He 
moved that Mr. Farqubarsoo, of 
323, Strand, be ordered to at- 
tend this house to-morrow. (Loud 
dieers.) 

Mn Cafimrio.— -There is no maa 
who heard the D(xi* and learned eei^ 
tleman's speech, no member of the 
pvolession to which he belongs, no 
one of the friends by whom ne is 
surrounded, who makes more allow- 
anoe than I do for thefeelii^ which 
he has evinced, or renders more mon 
cere tribute of pfaise for the mode- 
ration and propriety with which he 
has expressed them. He has dis- 
played an anxiety that is creditable 
to him« to free himself from an im- 
putatioR which, as fiar as my testi* 
mony goes, he is not subject to; for, 
without being enough a profeBsional 
man to be awaie tSorov^y of die 
importance of the distinction oetween 
wlnt he,^tated the other ni^t, and 
what he elsewhere was understood to 
have stated, I can most unequivocally 
state, that in his argument thsA nighty 
the impression on my mind vms, uiat 
he did not go out of his way to tiuow 
imputations on the lord chancel- 
lor, or to make what has happened 
in the court of chancery matter of 
individiial blame, not ^ result of a 
femlty system. (Hear» hear, hear.) 
That was the impression on my^ 
mind; and if my testimony had 
been required, I should have been 
as ready to state elsewhere, as I have 
been to state here, that there wm 
nothing uttered by the hon. and 
leamea member on that occasioii 
wfaidi went beyond the feir line of 
discussion, or which could justifiably 
fiomish a ground of pemonal c^enoe. 
Admitting this, sir, I can feel aho 
that the hon. and learned gentleman, 
strong in the recollection of his pur- 
pose at the time, and of hia raom of 
executing that purpose, could not 

have 



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bve flMfided Ming lurprise -and 
isdigiiation at finding fan speech 
fltanped with terms of so gvoas a 
character as titose n^ch have be^n 
appBed to it. But, or, in his stal^- 
ment to the house, ^ hon. and 
learned eentleman has dropped one 
link of the transaction; heiusdiop- 
aed the consideration whether ^^lat 
be said justifiably was reported cor- 
rectly to the l(»d chancdlor, as if 
there could be nothing in the duov* 
nd in which what was said here was 
conveyed to the noble loid» which 
au^ have perverted its meaning. 
(Hear.) Here again) as an unleamdl 
peraon* I must remark, that I mm 
not capable of discriminatii^ the 
difiiereiice between what has been 
actually reported, and what the hon. 
and learned gentlemBa actually said; 
but those on whose knowledge of the 
sul^ect I fally rdiv, assure me, tfial 
irtnle in thespe^ actuaUymade by 
tfie hon. and learned gentleman there 
was nodiins of which the lord chan- 
cellor would jusdy complain ; yetio: 
the repoit convened to the noble 
lofdf there was that colour siven to 
die ban. and learned genUeman's 
observations, which, thov^ not ma«* 
teiially Afferent to an unprofessional' 
eye, was false and incorrect, and 
calculated to excite in the br^ of 
the judge to whom they reterred, the 
same feeling of indignation fbr which 
he had mack a not less generous al- 
lowance, when manifeSed W the 
hon. and learned ^tleman. {Bfat.) 
What then, sir, is the conchnion to 
which the hon. and learned eende- 
man comes at last? That whatever 
is said here, and misrepresented 
ebewbere, affecting any person hi^ 
or low, thepenon against whom it is 
dnected most put up with it (pnet 
and unresistinsly ? Sir, if there be 
any fauh in what has hi^ypened, die 
mSi ts in our owff practice, or rather 



m our <mn conilivaace; a faiit 
irtnch I do not indicate with mf 
wish to see it corrected; a lunt 
which has produced incalculable be- 
nefits to the country, but which, 
amidst all its advantaM, has this 
inconvenience, that mtea ihe du^ 
lacten of individuBls are under dis^ 
coBsion here, the smallest variatioBi» 
the most unintentional miarepreae&- 
lation of v^bat is here utteied ouiy 
harrow up die feelings of the justest 
man in the country, by the impotefc 
tion of principles or practices which 
he has abhorred. (Hear.) The ho&L 
and learned genUeman has said, that 
a jud^ shoi£i take no cognizance of 
what is said of him here. What! is 
it of no consequence that in oomts 
in which a judge administers iustice^ 
faeriiould be known to sk with clean 
hands? or is it unnatural diat he 
i^iould be anxious to refiite, befUe 
dioee whoare the best judges of their 
trath or fidsehood, the imputations 
which he may suppose have been 
levelled at him. (Hear.) The hoiu 
and learned gentleman will acquit 
me of the cha^ of contending, that 
either on this or any odier occasion^ 
a judge shoidd <fiscfaaige his dutf 
to himself without referenoe to hs 
duty towards odieis, or that he should 
make observations on statemenlB, of 
die audienticily of vidnch he is not 
satisfied; as readily, I am sure, wifl 
he acquit me of the idea of sheltering 
mjam under the technicality of de«> 
nying, that what was said by the 
lord chancellor had reference to what 
passed in this house. Butithadnot 
reference, I am sure, iit the sense* 
which the hon. and learned ^;ende» 
man attiibutiMi to- it — not m the 
sense of a great officer of the ciowH' 
attempting to intimidate a member' 
of the house of oommomh— but of an^ 
individual, feeling, peihaps, too sen^ 
sibly lor his character, after a piAlic 



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fife of great merit, asid ofwfoom it 
xn^it he said, that he wore his heart 
upon his sleeve, 

• ' For dawi to peck at"— 

and dreaded too much every triflii^ 
Attack, as striking at the vitals of his 
iCTUtation. It is a fault to he so sen- 
sitive — ^it is a fiatult in a puhUc man ; 
hot it will he hard on pnhlic men 
that it should he so severely visited 
as the hon. and learned gentleman 
fxroposes; for I am sure that the 
course he points out can lead us to 
little less tnan an accusation of the 
most serious kind. I certainly wish 
that a different course had heen 
taken hy the nohle lord, and that 
in the time that elapsed hetween the 
dehate in this house and the end of 
tbe week, he had recurred to other 
testimoiny which m^ht have set him 
r^ as to the words actually uttered 
W the hon. and learned gentleman. 
(Hear, hear, from the opposition.) 
l^at it is to he regretted that the 
nohle lord had neglected this precau^ 
tion I admit, but that he could trea- 
sure up the misstatement to take an 
opportunity of wreaking his ven- 
geance on an individual, is what no 
man would believe of another, and 
what any one who knows the cluu- 
vacter of the noble lord will not 
dream of attributing to him. [The 
solicitor-general here whispered to 
Mr. Canning.] I have made this 
observation supposing it to be true 
that the lord chsuicellor had seen the 
reported observations of the hon. 
aiKl learned gentleman soon aAer 
Ibey were uttered ; but my hon. and 
learned friend, who is acquainted 
with the fact, tells me that the paper 
containing the expression attributed 
to the hon. and learned gentleman 
was put into the hand of the lord 
chancdlor only on Saturday morn- 
ing, at the moment of his going into 



court Then, rir^ are die hon. and 
learned gentleman and tf le lord chan- 
cellor so situated that the character 
of the one or of the other must suf- 
fer ? (Hear, hear.) There is, it ap- 
pears to me, an intermediate patn* 
What the hon. and learned gentle- 
man said could not justly have given 
offence, wbile in that misrepresenta- 
tion, not vriUul, and not inexcusable, 
of the hon. and learned gentleman^s 
obsoration, is to be found a justifi- 
cation of the warmth of the noble 
lord. (Hear.) The hon. and learned 
gentleman has vindicated himself in 
me fece of the house and of the 
eoiinlry, mid it will appear in him 
somewl^ approaching to the temper 
which he has attributed to the lonl 
chancellor, if he press his motion ; 
and I see no motive which need 
preclude him from recdving Ihe best 
and most substantial satisfaction, in- 
the assurance that what he really did 
say did not excite the feelings which 
the misrepresentation of what he did 
say has led to the expression of. 
(Hear, hear.) Sir, widi these feel- 
ings, and to prevent die commence- 
ment of a proceeding the termination 
of which we cannot anticipate, and 
with the fullest admission that the 
hon. and learned ^ntleman has set 
himself entirely right, I take the 
liberty to oppose his motion. 

Mr. BroughanL — ^If the only par- 
ties, sir, here this n^ht were lord 
Eldon and my hon. and learned 
friend (Mr.Abercrombie), if die only 
objects were die putting my hon. and 
lecffned friend in the right, and the 
putting the lord chancdlor in the 
wrong, I should be satisfied diat jus- 
tice has been done to both parties, 
and that both objects have been 
gained ; die first object by my hon. 
and learned fnend*s own speech; 
die second, by the admissions of the 
right hon. s^^{etaxy» in his defence 



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t>f fais noble coQeaffue— a defence, 
the oandoor of whi<m was oeat, the 
&inieB8 not litde» and of ^mich the 
modeiatkni and die skill are equally 
deserving of praise. A defence, in- 
deed, of the lord chancellor it can 
baldly be called ; it is an admission 
ef the chaige against him, and an 
humble and submissive, and by no 
QMBns injudicious speech in extenu- 
ation. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, be- 
sides my faon. and learned fiiend, 
besides the lord chancellor, does it 
not occur to you that there is a third 
party, and my honourable and learn- 
ed fneod must forgive me for saying, 
a more important one than either of 
the others. Besides his character, 
across which not a shadow of a shade 
has been cast in the estimation of 
those that know him, and which 
now, by the confession of all men, 
bas be^ so unjustifiably attacked, 
18 there not a higher interest oon- 
oemed in the present question — ^the 
interest of the privile^ of this house 
of parliament ? — ^privileges which, if 
the gross attack upon them that has 
'been brou^ under our notice be 
disregaided, can exist no longer, 
except to be laughed at by those 
■who rate us — to b^ trampled on by 
those "wtio would assail us— to tie 
found powerful only against the 
•weak, and impotent a^unst the 
pow^ful. {Hear, hear.) Letbvtan 
editor of a newspaper be accused of 
encroaching on our privileges— let a 
reporter be accused of misrepresent- 
ing any thing that has taken place 
here, and commenting too freely on 
his 'misrepresentation, it does not 
fii^ow, indeed, that he is brought at 
•once to the bar (nor is this the stage 
in which any to/Ai thing is demanded 
•here), but, let a complaint once be 
made, and there is no delay in bring- 
'ii^ the offence in a distinct shape 
•umker^he-oognizaooe <^f the house. 



We do not hear that it was done in 
a moment of irritation (hear, hear) 
«— that the offender had conceived 
the privileges of the press to be at^ 
tacked (a kugh) — ^we do not hear it 
said, ** we must excuse this warmth 
in editors or in reporters ; donH ex- 
amine the case— don't come to a 
vote— don't let us visit a mistake; if 
he had waited forty-eight hours, and 
had taken the slightest pains to in- 
form himself on the subject, we 
should have escaped; he would not 
have made his remarks, for he would 
have found there was no ground for 
thfem. (A laugh, and biar, hear, 
hear.)" 

This is not the defence which is 
set up in such cases, but it is pre- 
cisely the defence set up for the no- 
ble lord, and I cannot conceive that 
hereafter, if this case passes urmo** 
tioed, it will be any thmff less than 
insane to talk of vinmcating, as 
against more humble individuals, the 
privileges which the chancelkv' is 
admitted to have violated; lor no 
one, I imagine, will deny that he 
has most grossly violated the privi- 
kges of parliament (Hear, of dis* 
sent from the ministerial bench; loud 
«ries of hear, from the oppositioiu) 
Then, nr, if this be not a vidation 
of the privileges of parliament^ I 
should he glad to know what is con- 
ceived to be one? (Hear,' hear.) I 
remember one of the late-cases in 
which this house has vindicated its 
privileges by harsh measures; it teat 
an individual, not a h^^ and powei^ 
ful one, indeed, but an humble indi- 
vidual, I believe a printer, (Gale 
Jones) for five or six months to 
New^Ue, because he violated our 
priril^es. The ground of that pro- 
ceeding against Gale Jones was a 
quibble upon two lines of die bill of 
ri^ts^-thafc no man slnll be -ques- 
tioned 'for any ^ng said in pinia- 

ment, 



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Bueiit, in any odieroomt or place; 
and the act attributed to Oak Jonoi 
inUf that he had placarded on the 
waUs a qoeation CQnceming die con* 
diiict of a meaAber of the houwy which 
waa to be debated at acme spoutbg 
chib. No one, not merely no law- 
yer, but no one who can read and 
baa oonunon aense, can enippoee that 
the bill of ligfab meana any thing 
fike what waa attributed to it — or 
dat the quesHoning in any other 
court or place (die word ** place*' 
waa the occaaion for die quibble)»can 
have had in view pbcaiding die 
atreelB, or canvaanng a member*a 
conduct in a debating club; but I 
db diink, diat without quibbling, the 
conduct of lord Eldon apprdachea 
near to a violation of that dedara* 
tion. He remarica on the conduct of 
a member of parliament, not in a 
l^aoe merely, but in a court He 
does not qmestion, it is true (a lau^), 
etutigaiqfie auditque. He does not 
«ead odier reports; he does not take 
faia paper to any one who could have 
infoniied him what was said by my 
hob. and learned firiend; he did not 
dUow the least time for inquiry, but 
iMoceeded widiout hearing to pro- 
nounce hia sentence, and cany die 
sentence into execution. (Hear,hear.) 
I am sure, air, that the language I 
have used is not a dttle too strong. 
Widi die noble loid's intentions I 
have nodiing to do; it is the ten- 
dency of his acts I must look to; 
and I ask with what safety can a 
member of the bar sit in this house, 
if the head of die court in which he 
practices, and to which he is oon- 
nned— in which the means of exist- 
enoe, and it may be of subsistenoe 
for fa^ family are to be found, is, on 
aoooont of what he has said or done 
in dna house, to pan on fanm a aen- 
tenoe which goa to exclude him 
- from pnctioe, to destroy well-earned 



rewards of a fonoaer lifo» andyaaiv 
as the piofoasion is concehnd, to 
doaediat life for ever. (Hear, hear.) 
I do not aa^ that the kxd diancdlior 
has done dus; but if his condoct be 
li^tly pasaed over,' this may be done 
with impunih^; and what a state is 
tint in which will be placed the 
members of that profession who 
haveaduhrtodiachaTBehere. (Hear.) 
The only defence £at has been set 
up for die lord dancellor is, that 
there was something in die proceed- 
ing on his part aa hasty in itself aa it 
was extraordinaiy on the part of dmt 
learned judge. (Hear, hear.) Tfast 
his ooBckict, besides being indecorous 
to the house, shewed rashness and 
imnadence very unsmtaUe to the 
JQC^ent seat, and diat therefore it 
IS to be excused. (Hear, hear.) I 
gready fear that no one out of diis 
house will see the strei^ of dus 
pka, and'that if we refuse to deal 
with diis ofienee, and reaerve our 
privileges to crush those humbler in- 
dividuals from whoae attacks vre have 
no danger to apprehend^ even for 
dns ignoble purpose they will be 
found ineffectual, if persona om- 
nected with the press, or any persons 
in inferior stations to the lord chan- 
•oellor, should feel any wish to hokl 
us up to public soom, or to point oitf 
proceedings in cteracters, nowever 
alse (for it is admitted that die re- 
presentation this night in qoesdon is 
altogether felse), I cannot conceive 
why he should allow such a wish to 
remain, to the uttermost degree^ un- 
sradfied. But if diat wi£ shouM 
be indnlged in, it will be ridicukmi, 
or woise than ridiculous, to arm our- 
selves with the terror of privilege, to 
guard i^nst ridictde or invective, 
while we take no means to secure 
oundves against a repetidon of tfass 
gross and dangerous altadL on Ibe 
medom of our debates, and die 

inde^ 



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indepaidefioe of so many ot our 
BNuibeiB* (Hear^ beutf hear*) 

Mr. Peel obaerved, that he was 
by no means inclined to puiwie the 
eoune just recommended* viz» for the 
heose t3 take the first step, and then 
lo meet the difficulties that must ine- 
vitably present themselves. It was 
infiniiriy better calmly U> we^h 
duoae ififficukics before me house was 
iavohed in them (hear.) There 
were here two questions that seemed 
to have been oonibunded; firat, had 
diere been any breach of the privi- 
kces of th^ liousey or such a Ineach 
aa It was expedient to notice? Second, 
had there*beenany attempt to threat- 
en any member of the leanied pro- 
fession, to deter him from the dis- 
chuge of his dutjr ? The latter ap* 
peatred to him infinitely more import* 
ant, for a breadi of privilege was 
of for less consequence than to con- 
sider whether there had been an at- 
tack upon the independence of a 
membo: of parliament As to the 
first question, it was certainly veiy 
4ifficiut for any individual to say in 
bow many instances in the dav the 
privileges of the house were inning* 
ed* Membeis themselves were jjuilty 
of eonstant breaches, and withm this 
last two years constant and irregular 
references had been made to the pro- 
ceedings in the house of brds. The 
gros s er offence wasavoided bv talking 
of << another place," and of speech- 
es delivered there ; but this was a 
meie evasion, and perhaps it would 
be much belter to make direct allu- 
sions, and at once to answer remarks 
made by the peers, than to resort to 
this ai^Moently nnwordiy expedient 
It was most material to this disc ussion, 
to remember that the orugin of it 
was a direct breach of privilege, at 
which the house connived— -the pob- 
jiieation of its proceedings* Iff had 
the power to enforce its orders, but 



he adnatted that it was much wiser 
to continue the permissioD, than to 
put a stop to the pradioe. There 
was a balance of evils, but the advan- 
ti^ predominated in fovour <tf the 
publication of debates. Yet, great 
mconveniences sometimes arose, and 
the present was a strikioK and prcs- 
nant proof of the miadiie£ The 
hon, member (Mr. Abercrombie) 
had made a speech reflecting on an 
individual — ^it was printed next morn- 
ing, and it was wafted, not only to 
every district of this kingdom, but to 
all parts of the world where the Eng- 
lish language was understood. 1& 
speech contained a charge against the 
first judge of the land, that he had 
evaded an act of parliament, to dis* 
parage another judge, his coadjutor; 
and a r^;ard to common justice, inde- 
pendent of feelingft of wounded ho- 
nour, induced the lord chancellor to 
come forward and deny theaocusation* 
On what ground did the house permit 
the publication of its debates? Because 
it folt sensible of the immense advan- 
ti^es of unrestricted discussion ; but 
if the publication carried fokehood 
on the foce of it, an o{qportunity 
oi^tto be afforded for asserting thie 
tntth* If the house enabled folse 
charges to be made— -if it promoted 
their circulation, it never could recon- 
cile with its sense of justice a refiisai 
to allow the par^ caluminated an op- 
portunity for rinoication (hear, hear.) 
^ with uie warm feelings of an Eng- 
lishman, the party had made use of 
intemperate language, he (Mr. Pee^ 
maintained that the distinction was 
just, that the lord chancellor had 
not been guilty of the first attack. 
Bring himself accused, he claimed 
the ordinary right of being heard in 
his own defence, and he declared, 
<< I am not guilty,'* or in other words, 
''It is an utter folsehood'* (cheeia 
£om the opposition benches.) it 

would 



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would be, indeed, the establkhment 
of the grossest tyraony if calumnious 
debates were to be published, and-no 
means of refutation were afforded 
(hear, hear, hear.) An honourable 
and learned gentleman had said that 
on his person or his property, he 
might endure an attack, but his cha- 
racter must be preserved inviolate. 
The lord chancellor said the same 
(much cheering.) If his character 
were assailed, and he had no oppor- 
tunity of defending himself in the 
place where it was attacked, he was 
driven to the press, through the me- 
dium of wluch he w^ injured, to re- 
pel the imputation (hear.) The vfhole 
question was altered by the conni- 
vance at publication ; but when an 
honourable member printed his own 
speech, acourt of justice drew the 
^stinction : he made himself person- 
ally responfflble, and must answer 
for it in damages (hear! firom Sir 
F. Burdett) The honourable baro- 
net might intimate his dissent, but 
there vras a clear distinction between 
the publication in a newspaper and 
• the uuthorised publication by- a mem- 
ber. The case for Mr. Hope had 
been mentioned. Conceiving that 
his character was attacked, w&t did 
he do .^ He applied to the member 
whose speech was reported ; and that 
honourable gentleman might very 
reasonably reply, tiiat he did not 
feel himself responsible for vdiat 
appeared in a newspaper. He (Mr. 
Fed) did not wish to dwell upon a 
topic which must be mingled with 
pounful feelings in the mind of the 
honourable member; he vrtmld there- 
^re only say, that-the house had veiy 
4idy voted Mr. Hope guilty of a breach 
of privile^. But what course was 
pursoed with regard to Mr. Menzies.^ 
•He had not appealed to the honour^ 
able member regarding his speech ) 
he found someming printed in a 



newspaper, and, as k was filw,'fae 
gave it a contradiction tliioi^[^ ifae 
samednand: the resolution, there- 
fore, was merely, *^that Mr. Menziesy 
having explained his conduct to the 
satisfaction of the house, he is re- 
lieved from fiirdier attendance." He 
(Mr. Peel) would concede that the 
hoxu member for Cahie was able in 
this case to prove all he had stated ; 
but the lord chancellor could not be 
brought to the bar for a breach of pri- 
vilege, because he took upon himself 
to contradict only what he foimd re- 
ported in a newspaper (hear.) The 
subject was oomphcated to all but 
professional men; but it appeared diat 
motions made before the vice dum- 
cellor might be repeated before the 
lord chancdlor, wimout the signature 
of counsd; but appeals after decree 
codd not be heard, without that 
sanction and security. It was eaay 
for a newspaper to make the mistake ; 
one individim or several migfat:&U 
into error in making the . lepoiC 
Newspapers, however, were generall^r 
considered the best testimony ; and 
if the point were examined, it woul^ 
be found that the speech of the ho- 
nourable gentleman (Mr. Abercrom- 
hie), on Tueeday last, was not ow- 
reedy gnren in any of the oidinaiy 
vehicles of sodi mtelligenoe. Hb 
(Mr. Ped) implored ihe house to 
compere die accasation vrith the de» 
fence. The diai^ as it appeared 
in the newspaper, was that me lovd 
chancellor, depaitins from the piiK>* 
tioeof hiscoiut,had vidated an. act 
of parliament passed in 1813, wtiea 
the fact veas, that in that act there 
was not a s}^ble regarding the si^ 
nature of oounsd to appeals. Con- 
firmed, however, as this statement 
was by other newspapers, was it not 
naturd for the bra chancellor to 
tak^ an opportumty of setting faimsdf 
right .^ Intemperate theymighl bc^ 

but 



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1^1. 



but he (Mr. Peel) vm mice, tldt if 
the just indignation of the hon. sent 
had not be^ naturally excite^ he 
never would have thou^ of introdu- 
cing this subject to the notice of the 
house. Nothing was more natural 
and proper than the course pursued 
by the injured party ; it might tech- 
nicaUy be a breach of the privil^s, 
but common flesh and blood could 
not endure that imder such circum- 
stances they should be observed. Lord 
Hardwicke comment^ one of his 
most laboured judgments with these 
words, for he (Mr. reel) remembered 
them well — " There is no one duty ' 
more imperative on a court of justice* 
than to set right its proceedings to the 
world.'* Such haa been the object 
of the lord chancellor — by that rule 
he had been guided ; and though he 
had incautiouSy used the terms, '<it 
is a utter falehood,** yet it was very 
iDateiial to consider whedier the em- 
ployment of those words was abreach 
of privilege. He was not prepared 
to say 6iat they were tempmte : he 
did not condemn the speeoi on Tues- 
day night, nor the general conduct of 
the bon. member who delivered it, 
bat the question was, whether tins 
stronig and vehement denial of the 
charge constituted in itself a breach 
of pdvil^? (hear.) On that point 
he entertained serious doubts : sup- 
poie the exivression had been, in- 
stead of 'Mt is an utter felsehood,*' 
merely, ** this is completely errone- 
ous ;" would not the case have assum- 
ed a different complexion (hear) ? 
The language, such as it was, had. 
reference to the statement in the 
newroaper, and not to the individual; 
and tnough he (Mr. Peel)' could not 
but r^ret the course taken, he must 
say, that the use of an objectionable 
expression neither aggravated nor 
conatitvted a breach of privilege. 
The m^e tenor of the reply was, 
X1824. 



in his view, an extremely mA^fffg^ 
refutation (hear, hear, from the op- 
position benches.) Nothing could 
be more unfair than to interrupt in 
the middle of a sentence ; the ch^r 
was a miserable triumph, a worthless 
victory (hear, hear.j He had been 
about to add, that taking out two lines 
only firom the whole statement, the 
rest was unobjectionable. Vengeance 
was particularly invoked on Se last 
part of what had fallen ^m the 
lord chancellor, where he spoke 
of gentlemen ** with govms on their 
backs;" and he (Mr. Peel) was quite 
' prepared to admit that it vras not the 
way in which he should haye spoken 
of the honourable member for Calne, 
when not under irritation; and he 
was Dcrfectly certain that his noble 
friend, in calmer moments, would 
have been the last man to have ap- 
plied such an offensive expression to 
any individual, much less to the hosL 
gentleman.To talkofgentlenen ^ with 
gownson their backs," was unquestion- 
ably not a very civil or polished expres- 
sion ; but it was not on that account 
only to be voted a breach of privilege. 
To call barristers togoHj was a pro- 
fessional designatioii, and the loid 
chancellor had only employed rather 
a coarse translation, ft seemed to 
him, recollecting all the ciitmmstan- 
ces of the case, and especially the 
natural irritation, it would be the 
height of injustice to yisit as a breach 
of privilege an incautious phrase. 
So much for the question as to the 
breach of privilege. As to the sup- 
position that the lord chancellor 
could have had any deliberate inten- 
tion of intimidating a member of that 
house from the discharge of his duty, 
Uus would undoubtedly be an offence 
of ten-fold greater magnitude, but he 
was sure the house would be perfect- 
ly satisfied that no such intention ex- 
isted. The honourable «Qd learned 
I' member 



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niettibet ibr Ihteboitn^ (iMt. SoAf- 
1^) who w)iA 80 dktmgtdsbed sn ot- 
nfluDdeiit of thei 60urt of king's bench, 
though he had taken t very decided 
v&tt in that hou^e in cfuestions af- 
fecting Uie oouit of chanceiy, had still 
deckd:ed that he had been uniformly 
treated hy the chandellor with the 
greatest jiMice, impattiality, and eir^n 
odiM^. iBven if the chancettor had 
iiitended to select a particular part of 
the discul^on which took place on 
iSiesday as the subject 6f animtul- 
vMion, he Would put it to the housd 
whether it was probable that he 
would have Selected the roeech of 
the hpn. member for Caue (Mr. 
Abercit>mlae) ? he was quite satisfied 
that diere exiated no intention of 
ditowin^ any impittatimi cm thtt 
bonourdJe member, and thou|^ un- 
dRmbtedly tohie strong ttptessiona 
Hbll fitnnthecfaaAcellor m amanner of 
ittitated feding, he felt the strongKt 
convictibxi that there ezi^ no (kli- 
beiate intention of invading the pri- 
vileges of that house» and sdll less 
of holding out a threat against any 
member of that hoiise with a view 
of intbudating him in the dischaise 
(A his parliamentary duties. If the 
house considered t^ he (Mr. Peel) 
had succeeded in establishing these 
two proportions; first, that the terms 
u&ed by the cfa^ceUor did not of 



constitute or aggravate a 
bteach of privily; and secondly, 
tibat he had no deliberate intention 
of intimidating a member of that 
house from the discharge of his duty, 
he trusted that these considerations 
would prevent them from adopting 
{he course recommended by the ndit 
honourable gentleman opposite, (Mr. 
liemey) a course which he himsdf ad- 
mitted abounded in difficulties, notone 
of winch he had attempted to solve. 
Sir James Mackintosh — ^I can a^ 
iture the house that I shall, for my 



ofWn sake) treapM for ail dkiit a tiine 
as poasible up6a their attention, far 
I rise at no small perscmal incon- 
venience, but I cannot refrain from 
making a few observations on a dises- 
tion ^ch is undoubtedly one of vital 
importance, convinced as I foel that 
the rejection of the present motion 
wonld be oneof the most fatal blows 
that was ever struck at the privik^ 
df this house, and at the constitution 
and liberties of this countiy. The 
motion now under consideration ia, 
whether we flhaU recave evidoioe to 
ettabhsh the alleged &ct of a breach 
of the nrivileges of &]s house, ag- 
gravated by a folse chaxge against 
one <)f ito membeib. Idonotdiarge 
the chanodkxr with any intention of 
intimidating the bar, or of detetrin^ 
any individial member of the pi«te»- 
sbn from the pei&nnanoe of Ua 
duty , by holding out threats ddtfered 
from me judgment^eat, whidi may 
be inteoded to infltience Ae conduct 
of such members of the profesaioii 
as hav6 likewise seats in tms house. 
Undoubtedly such an intention wouM 
be a great aggravation of the breach 
of the privSeges of this house, and 
t agree with my hon. and learned 
friend in thinking that the house is 
bound to inquire, in justice to Sie 
chamcfter of that profession^ Wfaidi 
would be tarnished and degraded 1^ 
the rejection of this motion. If te 
house refuse to inquire into tiie chaige 
now made against the lord chancellor 
of England, ttiq^ will cast a8tifi;maupoti 
that profession of whidi I had once 
the honour to be an humble membe3^, 
and the memben of which oi»ht for 
ever to be ezchxded from thia house, 
if they are to be placed iqpon a ml- 
aerable and precarious dependence on 
the judges of the crown, there h a 
chaiige of further aggravation of the 
breach of the privileges of this house, 
which is one Of the graatest magni- 
tude. 



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163 



Whit WB tiie tmm of die 

diBcusflMMi? Askiquiiy uitotmcoii* 
ititution fliid fKDBiu&ifltittlioii ' of Ai6 
oimit of ehflaacttv, and the Ai&cikmB 
of tfi6 judge ivfao pufettdtt ovtf k. 
Hut facMte, in the exercise of o&eof 
ili In^iort end meflt inpofteiitdiiiieit 
was engi^ in die incpry, whedier 
jfHtiee ^ves dtdjr admmueered in one 
of die grealest coartnin the kkigcfeniy 
and die judge of tfafiA teiT court wliMi 
WW die eabjeet of inqmiy, talces an 
^^jportnnityofarv^mng on die judg- 
ment seat, in pnueipftttU!^ fiolent^ and 
coarae kmrnge m oondoct of a 
caeniDer of paiiifiBnent) who in the 
^sidttige of bis YMdiUe duties part^ 
ctprted in thet debate* If this is to 
be endured, die stan^Kng oMkM Of 
Ae giend coniinillee of jusdoei wiiAcAi 
df oentones nafe fenned a part of 
die rancnons ttfid piivueees of tiiis 
bcNiM) ought to be criysod fiom ouf 
jounMklB. They wUl be a s^ufcire on 
Our pioeeeifeigs; they will fettaki 
onfy as iandfiutfks to Aew bow we 
befv^degenerafeed ifoni our Jbtefathere) 
who fegaided diem as an essendd 
jpart of die cO iM <i trti on, and who 
ooDridered their niainteRanoe a fun-» 
dsmentt^ pert of dieir 6otf» The 
nf^ bon. eendeoian who ^poke hat* 
ha» eaitiea one ammeitt to a most 
extraorfinary lei^^ It wes wisc^ 
dedaied that diaft perduunent breads 
of our privilegeB which is oommitted 
by Ihe publication of our debates, is 
a braadb of jpnVil^e wbioh ought to 
be eofmived at In that omnion I 

nooncur, and I agree that diere 
i be' BMxMfieatiokiB of our trestiU 
aieni of breaches of pvlvil^je ansh^ 
out of diis tolerate, breacb of privi- 
lege. I cttuioty bowev<n^i admit the 
mfeience which die right hon. gen- 
deman, widi all die lekterHy of a 
pncdaed logicuD, drew from this 
arsamieiit, rumMfy, dial beeense we 
wratie the publication of our debates. 



Mncutt tneiafeiii^ KaeMa etitfykiBd 
of attadc on a nembse of this hoos^ 
however (Use and cahdttDous^ wUdk 
may be made in oottse^jUMiee of ite 
statements in some pubhcailoii of our 
dsbatfis, especSalty that meat dttger^ 
0m of att attacksy an tfttadt made hf 
n ju^ sitting in bis own court of 
jwftice on a member of diis house 
(bear.) An attack made by one of 
the kii^*s minist^s on a member, of 
dris house for eiceieising a oonsdli^ 
tional jealousy es to hi$ conduct. It 
has been seia that Mr. Mendes vety 
propetiy difldnguished between whlft 
was said by a member of dns faooML 
and what he was stated to have said 
indietiewqiiMiv; butdasisadia* 
Ikiction to whieh the ohanoellor el 
SngiandhaajpsAdnoeitsntion. The 
ohimoeaorof En^tnddoes notpuy 
ttebMMe^e slender oompliiSMsmof 
mekittgdiiscBstmcfiont buthepro^ 
oeeds at once to attack a member of 
this house Ibr^wrhat he is reported to 
ba^eaid in t Single newspaper. Hie 
fiffht hon. eendciian (Mr. Peel) has 
nued wht&er any one woidd oe so 
eniel as to deny a man the opportu- 
nity of defoidaag hischaracter against 
injuiiousmisrepresenCation ? -Godto* 
bid! Iwoold allow him every mesoi 
of vindieating ins chaiucter; but kt 
him fiiet examine and m^pme into 
died^oumstanoes of the case beibre 
be himself makes a calumkiious ^etadr 
on the diameter of a man of honour. 
Suppose it to be a private aAdr of 
honour, what would die right bon. 
gendeoaan thkik of a man who po* 
oeeikd rt oaot to make such an at* 
tack widiout mouifaig into die ^inn- 
dation of die charge, -widiout euiv* 
silking diose fr!ei& who bad an 
eppo^snty of knowii^ die circum* 
stances, and wtdiout 'affortBng liie 
edier party the means of eKfJamine 
and jusdffmg Imoondurt ? Instead 
^4ajcii^ any of diese st^ the lofi 
bighchuioeuor of Englanid, who had 

held 



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held the seals for irowaids of twenty 
yeaiBy had acted tike a raw, hot- 
Leaded,' inexperienced boy, just 
eniancipated from the discipline of 
his college. 

The right hon. gentleman opposite 
(Mr. Ped] had ^ed, where could 
the lord chancellor of England vin- 
dicate himself? I wiU answer, any 
where but on the judgment seat [loud 
cheers] — any where but ip a place 
where all equality is removed, where 
not the only party accused is absent, 
but where none who are present can 
venture to dispute or discuss the alle- 
sations of the accuser [hear, hear, 
near!] Where could he vindicate 
himsdf ? why, in his place in another 
house of parliament, or through his 
friends in this [hear, hear, hear]. 
Is the lord chancellor of England 
80 feeble, so defenceless, so helpless, 
that he has no voice to raise in his 
defence? He has a powerful and an 
eloquent voice. Has the lord chan- 
cellor .of England no friends in this 
bouse ? he hs^ many who are attached 
to him by the ties of eratitade, and 
who are ready to defend him against 
any char^ which may be made 
against hira. The hon. and learned 
gentleman, the solicitor general, in- 
troduced a very insenious argument, 
in extenuation of ue conduct of the 
chancell<Hr. In fact, all that has been 
stated in his favour amounts to nothing 
more than extenuation. Now, I must 
say, that topics of extenuation are 
introduced at a most unseasonable 
stage of this proceeding. Extenuation 
affords no argument against injury 
[hear !] ; extenuation may be a reason 
against severity of judgment — it may 
be a reason against any ju(%ment 
at all — ^die merits of the individual 
may be taken into connderation, and 
prevent us from passing any jud^^ent 
—^whether the merits of lord £ldon 
are of this description I do not 



now enquire; but I do say, that tht 
pleas of mirigation that Imve been 
aileron the other side of the hoise 
are mtroduced most unseasonabfy as 
bars to inquiry. The honomable and 
learned gentleman (the attorney ge- 
neral) introduces an extraordinary ar- 
gument, namely, that it was quite 
justifiable in the chancellor to use 
the expressions whidi fell from him 
on the bench, because the honourable 
member for Calne (Mr.Abercromine) 
did not, on the day after the debate 
on the court of chancery, when he 
had no doubt much pn^essiooal and 
private business to attend to, read all 
the newspapers to see whether his 
speech was accurately reported or 
noL This is certainly a most extra- 
ordinary argument; and I believe it 
is the first time since the existence 
of parliament that a member of this 
house has been reproached by anodier 
hon. member, and that member a 
law officer of the crown, for not 
having read the report of his speech 
in the newspaper, and when ne is 
not only reproached for this onussion, 
but his neglect further insisted upon 
as a justification of a breach of the* 
privileges oi this house. But if 
there be any weight in this aigiK 
. ment of the hon. zSd learned attorney 
. ffeneial, how cruel a condemnation 
does it involve of the conduct of the 
lord chancellor! If my hon. and 
learned friend (Mr. Aberaombie) were 
bound to read all the newspapen to 
ascertain the accuracy of their reports, 
how much more imperative i^n the 
lord chancellor was it to resid tfkem 
in order to see whether he might not 
have been nusled by the inaccuracy 
of one of them, befere he proceeded 
to pronounce sentence on my ho- 
nourable friend [hear, hear] ? the true 
question in this case is this: Is thane 
any member of tins house who can 
deny that a breach oi our privilws 



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Iwbeenooiiimitted? none, bdiere 
sny member of tfab touae who can 
deny tbat ft false charge has been 
made against my honu fnend? none. 
Is there any member of this home 
who can deny that such a charge, 
pronounced bv the highest juc%e in 
this country, m>m the judgment seat 
of his own court, is an attack on the 
independence of the bar, tending to 
influence the honest ezerticMisof such 
members of the profession as may 
have seats in this house? none. I 
will venture to say, that no member 
of this house will deny any one of 
these three propositions; and I will 
ask, ther^ire, with what propriety 
or consistency this house can declare 
that we oa^ not to inquire into the 
circumstances oi this admitted, this 
aggravated breach of our jprivileges? 
(hear, hear,) the offence is admitted, 
but the ri^ hon. gentleman 0{^k>- 
site says we ought not to inquire. 
And why ? because the person chaiged 
is the lord high chanceuorof England, 
though the hnguage he used referred 
to an inquiry carried on in this house 
into the constitution and administra- 
of the court over which he presided, 
and thou^ that language was calco^ 
lated to deter the only persons pos- 
sessed of competent mformation as 
to the constitution of the court of. 
chancery from communicating that 
informati<Hi to the house. 

The conduct of the lord chancellor 
on this occasion had a direct tendency 
to render it impossible for this house 
to discharge some of its hig^iest and 
most important oonstitutioi^ func- 



gy wfaidi have sQooeeded in 1 
to us the bleasings of a fiee constitii^ 
tion — ^which have ended in making 
us a great and happy people. But in 
die whole course of these stn^ggies, 
there has never yet been an instanee 
of any magistxate,, in any court of 
justice, who was so presumptuous 
and daring, as to arraign a member 
of the house of commons for aspeech 
dehvered in the course of a parlia- 
mentary in<jniry into the conduct 
of that ma^^istrate (hear, bear). If 
the house is ready to abdicate its 
functions altogether— if it is pv&. 
pared to abandon all intention of 
inquiry into the abuses of courts of 
justice, then indeed, aof^ this mo- 
tion to be rejected. It has been sakl, 
and said most truly, that my hono- 
rable and learned friend will dis- 
chaiee his duty fearlessly and inde-* 
pencKntly, both in this house and in 
courts of justice^ regarding but little 
the approbation or disapprobation of 
the lord chancellor. But it cannot 
be hence inferred that the conduct 
of the k)rd chancellor will have 
no effect on the iiMlependence of 
the bar. When we consider the 
multitude of young men of talents 
rising at the bar, vdio are still in » 
state of obscurity, struggling with 
adversity, and depressed oy poverty, 
it cannot be denied that tlie conduct 
of the lord chancellor is calculated 
to have a lamentable effect on their 
integrity and independence. Instead 
of being the intrepid champioos and 
zealous preservers of the liberties of 
their country — ^the proudest distinc- 



tions. The house of commons has tion to which a lawyer can aspire^ 



been engaged in strugries of various 
kinds for many hundm years; it has 
been enga^ in struggles of the 
crown, which have sometimes been 
carried beyond due bounds, but 
which, upon the whole, have been 
conductea with a spirit and an ener- 



the conduct of the chancellor is cal- 
culated to check their rising energies 
— ^to repress all generous exertions^-* 
to produce a ser^e, obsequious bar, 
of which the members most distin- 
guished for their baseness may in 
time degrade the bench--*fit instru- 
ments 



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PASUAMBNTARY DSBA1E& 



Q tile kmb of pom to 
oppiai their countijrBai* add dc-^ 
i^ojf die five oontitiiDoii of Fpglind 
(hear^ hMr») htar). 

lie ifaodd detain tho koins bat fiir a 
wy few momaits. It was* mdeed, 
unnectoiiaiy IQ do 80 after the canitidl 
and hmowable nuumer in which 
hoQ. nuHnben oppoiite had added 
thar mffiragei to oiose of his hon^ 
fticndti in txpfSKion of their con^ 
▼ictioa that nothing which had beeb 
attd by him (Mr» Abeicronabie) in 
Uie disdiaroe.of his doty as a mem- 
ber of dial Doiise, oof^ to have ex- 
pOMd hfan to die animadvenions 
which had been mads on his con- 
duct. The paper in question nn* 
doabtedhr did not contain a true 
vspoxt of what had been said by lum 
in bis ptece. With raq>eet to the 
•oune which the house ought now to 
puvaoe, it woidd be for the hoise iu 
adftodetemineb Heriiouldonlyba; 
kave to state the munds on which 
he had acted in brinj;ing forvmid, 
widi as much innnitiality as poBiible, 
a question in which he felt so deep 
a personal interest, ft was obvious, 
in the finit place, tint he might have 
taken a ooune which was not wididut 
nccedent» namely, thai of treating 
due as a trtasacdon in whidi he 
kiaiBdf was alone interested. But 
he tdt that it wmdd be impossiUe to 
kiif the case belbre die house witbf 
ool oeasid^lEing it as one in vi^iich its 
ewa pcivikj^ were involved; and 
in tabng this view of it, he was m^ 
fluenoed by anoUier consideraiioB, 
which operated strong imon him — 
namely, die duty wmch he owed to 
his prafeBsion. He bad taken the 
advice of diose in whose iud||;ment 
and emvioiee be could best oon«- 
fids^ vrho had leconunended the 
comee winch tliey deemed most fitto 
bo adopted. He had adopted dwt 



andi iM BHadittodiahoiKK; 

and he wae mSi of ^ioion thai it 
was ti wise end prudent oouisew He 
should, however, make no observa- 
tBon in support of it, but leave it to 
the house to decide. 
The house prooeeded to a divt-^ 



For the motion 
Againstit - 



- 102 

- 151 



B^orily - «- 49 
Hbi^n OF lcBD9f March 15.— 
The marqwiM of JLansdown rose, 
ki pursuance of the notice be bad 
given, to propose to dieir ksddiipa 
an address to his majesty for the re- 
oognidonof the indfpendeut state oC 
Spanish Amencap bi bringing tiua 
subject before thdr kxdelaps, Mwae 
conscious that all be oould say wae 
very imperfect, compared with the 
kt^ortance of the ot^ect he wav 
about to recoBunend* k was now 
four yean since he ventured to throw 
out some hints for the impvoveawnt 
of feteign trade, as e means of r&* 
lievine die country in a aituati(m of 
consi&able difficulty, and to point 
out the pronriety of removing those 
lesttictioBS by which commerce wae 
fetftersd; an advice, which, he wae 
happy to find, was now to be Mlow* 
ed b^ those who had the means of 
osnying it into effect Even at thai 
time, he ventured to recooanend to 
Aeir lordships* notice the situation 
of the provinces of South AmerioUy 
and to point out die g^ieat beoiAn 
%liich their commerce was l&div to 
produce^ and tiie relief it would aS» 
ford, not only to this country, but to 
an Europe, if it could be feeely and 
safely prasecuted. Since that pe» 
riod so much calamity had been 
qnead thcough Europe, that he did 
not find himttlf juidfled in proiKXibg 
any dung on this important questig^ 



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PARUANjENTARY DEBATES. 



167 



of the wftm «b>cb Aift ndbik wl 
faaKl hidw tbe table* he {bund bim- 
aelf oonfijined m the views be had 
arigisaUy formedy any Jooser deby 
wcwU bfiye been ioex(cuaab£e« See- 
ing ao piany iust grouDdsL frr . calling 
on their loiclshipB to sanctian the 
mec^ recognition of the states of 
Spanish America, and none for de- 
laying that measure, he felt himself 
velieved bom tbs only onbarrassmeDt 
vrtack Qoujld have remained to im- 
pede his ranammOTdation. He came, 
Iherefixe, free £rom all emban^ss- 
mentjof this kind to the consideration 
of the qaeti^oa to which be proposed 
to lall their lordships* attention— a 
qui esti op which invdved die interest 
^ an extent of oonntiy and popula- 
tion greilter than e.yer before w^ 
affaoted fay apv one act of human . 
policy or tegislation. It embraces 
the American continent from the 
37tfa deg. of north latitude to the 
4]lat degree of south latitude;'-4eni- 
tacies in length greater than the con^ 
tjmnt of Aaica, and exceeding the 
extoi^of the whole of the]Ru96ian emr 
pire in^Uit^ and Aaia. Thisj;reat 
^aiEteot of country was bla^aad with a 
climate &vouiable to the production 
of eyeiy oomlcNt and luxwy whidi 
human patuie could desire, and was 
9beac^ inhabited by more than 
21,000,000 of penpns. Such were 
the oowtriea with respect to whidi 
ha^sffiant locall upon their lordships 
to aay whether tney thou^ they 
o^g^ now to be wongoivMl in tlje 
mm of iodapeodenC states. la ap- 
pealing to tern lor tfaia purpoae, he 
ooaoeiTed that their loidshiDs would 
iiave fisst to consider wheUxer .th^ 
ppsaesaed the right to make such 
leopgnition; secondly, whether the 
«iietciae of that fight would at the 
paesept moment be expedient As 
to the ri^ of making die reco^- 
lian, tbe» Icpdships would consider 



i^etber the South Anv^rioan stat^ 
were not pow de facto independent; 
and that beiug admitted^ whether 
thne was any prospect of Spain ever 
being able to nsDossess them; and 
also whether, if they were indepen- 
dent and could not be repossessed 
by Spain, they were in a condition 
to enable them to maintain the rela- 
tions of amity and commerce with 
other countries; Independent of eveiy 
other consideration, their lordships 
Cpuld, from the events of the two la^t 
)rearB, have no doubt as to the ques- 
tion wbsther Spsdn could have any 
prospect of reconquering the states 
of South America. 

In the £^ place, in the 3(ato pf 
Mexico, extenaing from sea to sea, 
and containing a population of 
7,000,000 no Spanish soldier bad 
been ^n for two years past Ther^ 
was, indeed, a sxnaU Spanish force 
on the coast The <9sde of San 
Juan de Ulloa contained a garrison 
of about 4,000, who, from the pecu- 
Jiar situation of the fortress they 
occupied, might hold out for a con- 
jsideiaUe period; but they were 
compl^ely cut off from all commu- 
nication with the interior, and coidd 
have no influence on the Me of the 
country. In Guatimala there was 
also now no Spanish force. Through- 
out the whole of the great state pf 
Colombia there was not, nor had 
been, since the reduction of Puerto 
Cabdlo, a single Spanish soldier. 
That rqmUic had alreadhjr exercised 
the chancter of an independent state 
for thirteen years. In Biieno6.^ra, 
which had so loi^ maintained ijta 
independence, ana against which 
Spain had made no attempt whate- 
ver, there had occurred some changes 
of government; but it was worthy of 
reinark, that amidst all the changes 
which had taken place, no party in 
the country had &nf manife^d any 

dis- 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



(fisposition to call in the power of 
llie mother country. In Chile no 
Spanish soldier had appeared for se- 
veral years, and no force from the 
mother country had for these four 
years come near it, with the excep- 
tion of that which held possesion of 
a small island on the coast In Pern, 
it was true there was a considerable 
Sj^ish force, amoipting, it was 
said, to about seven or 8000 men, 
under efficient leaders. That force 
teas reported to have , recently ob- 
tained some successes, owing to the 
misconduct of individuals mio bad 
afforded fiicilities to the operations of 
the royalist army; but it was not to 
be expected that any partial advan- 
tages which might be gained by the 
Spanish force, could be capable of 
extinguishing the spirit of indepen- 
dence which had taken root in the 
hearts of the Peruvians ; especially 
when Bolivar was encouraging them 
with all the glory of his name, and 
aiding them with all the genius 
which distinguished his military en^ 
terprizes and political administration, 
by which he liad established the in^ 
de^ndence of Colombia, and given 
to It that constitution which appeared 
destined to become the bond of^union 
and the charter of the liberties of the 
confederated states. He would now 
ask their lordships, whether they 
considered it probable that countries, 
after having maintained their inde- 
pendence for^ fourteen or fifteen 
y^rs, could again be compelled to 
return under the yoke of such a 
power as Spain now was, and must, 
of necessity be for half a centuiy to 
come-^a country which had only ten 
^ millions of inhabitants? In the in- 
* efficient and distracted condition of 
Spain, was it reasonable to expect 
iJbat she could make any. impression 
on the confederated states he had 
mentioned, which contained seven- 



teen mBlions of popolatioii? To 
make the picture more complelir, he 
mieht be allowed to take in the po^ 
pu&don of the Brazils, which was 
four millions, while that of Porto^ 
was only three millions. Thus, widi 
a view to any raactical political con- 
sideration, aH the American states he 
had enumerated m^ht be considered 
as independent, and incapable of 
bein^ compelled to return mider the 
dominion of the mother eountxy. 
Supposing the question of the rigbt 
of recognition to be determined, he 
came to the consideration of expe- 
diency, in as far as that dependied on 
the capacity of the South American 
states to maintain such treaties of 
amity and commerce as mighC be 
expected to be concluded with tbeni^ 
as well as all the other relations of 
civilized government Here he must 
own that the course which had b^ea 
followed in those countries, where 
peace and tranc|uillity had so soon 
overcome anv thmg like civil djasen- 
sion, would be sufficient, in his opi- 
nion, to settle this question, witliQiut 
going into any consideration as to 
tibe nrinciples of the constitutionB 
whicn had been established. When 
he looked at the constitution of Co- 
lumbia, he found that it contained 
two principles which their lordships 
could not fail to approve — namely, 
the giving of influence to property, 
and the securing the means of edu- 
cation. The elections were so con- 
ducted as to preclude the evil arising 
from a multitude votixu? without pro- 
perty. A certain qualification of pro- 
perty was necessary to give the nght 
of voting for electors ; and a still high- 
er qualification was required for the 
electors who returned representatives. 
He might point out manv other things 
in the constitution of Colombia whidi 
their lordship would be disposed to 
commend; but he particulany<wish- 

ed 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



169 



ed to can thfar attendon to the fitf^t, 
that under its auspices a system of 
pnodiial education had already been 
establiflhed throughout the wh6le 
country. In addition to all this, ma- 
ny fecte might be mentioned in proof 
of thefaivourable influence of this con- 
Sdtution, and the regularity of the 
goTemment which administered it. 
He mkht state that since the expul- 
sion of the Spaniards, there had no 
where appeared any tlung like disor- 
der; that during the last two years it 
had not been found necessary to em- 
ploy a single soldier in aid of tSie 
pohce, and yet no breach of peace or 
trancpiilfity had any where occurred* 
There was surely in the statement he 
had made proof of the regularity of 
the government of Colombia, and of 
its powers 'to carry into effect or 
mafintain any engagements it might 
contract; but he must beades inform 
their lordships, 1^ the state of Co- 
lombia had mad^ pravisibns for the 
gradual extinction of slavery in the 
ookmies ; and here he would appeal 
to die nobk earl opposite, the secre- 
tary of stdle for the colonies, whether 
the government which had done this 
must not be allowed to have complet- 
ed a task of no easy accomplishment ? 
Measures had been taken for regularly 
giving the slaves their liberty. A tax 
was established to afford die means of 
carying into effect their manumis- 
sion, and aH children would in future 
be bom tree. It was also due to the 
govenmient of Colombia to state, that 
tins ^reat measure was carried into ef- 
fect m a manner as sadsfoctoiy to the 
matters as to the slaves. Care had 
beoi' taken to secure to air parties 
compensation for loss; and the ma- 
' nmnission of the slaves had been at- 
tended with considerable immediate 
advantages to th^ masters themselves. 
TfaJs was a state oflhiiigs which could 
lUA'bot^be 8ali«|sKctofy to their lord- 
ships ; and having sts^ted some acts 



which were calculated' to show &e 
nature of the new governments of 
America, it might next be proper to 
enquire how those governments were 
regarded by public opinion in Europe. 
He (lord Lansaown) had now 
^ne over what he had to say respect- 
ing the right of this country to ac- 
knowledge the independence of the 
South American states, and shown 
that no obstacle existed to the exercise 
of that right He would only add to 
his reasoning that he woula appeal 
to the cases of the united provinces of 
die Netherlands when severed from 
the Spanish monarchy, and to that of 
the establiidiment of the fkmily of 
Braganza on the throne of Portugal 
by a revdt from Spain, in support of 
this principle. It was well known 
that we had carried on an open in- 
tercourse with those provinces — ^that 
we formed political alliances, and 
entered into commercial treaties with 
their government for sixty years be- 
fore Spain, acting on her character- 
istic policy; and exercising her ac- 
customed caution, could be brought 
to admowledge dieir independence 
— an acknowledgment whicn was not 
formally ntiule tol the treaty of West^ 
phalia. During all that interva^ we 
had acted as if Spain had no claim to 
the obedience of the Netherlands. In 
the other event to which he alluded^ 
our conduct had been more pointedly 
opposed to the views of Spain vnm- 
out occasioning a war. In 1641 , the 
Cortes of Portii^ declared the right 
of the femily of Braganza to die 
throne of that kingdom; and in 1642 
this country conduded a treaty with 
the newly-established government, 
without laying the ground for any 
hostility or quarrel with Spain, and 
without even a remonstrance from 
that power. (Hear, hear.) The recog- 
niti<» of the independence of a go- 
vernment de facto had ^ways be^n 
considered as the right of every in- 



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PARUAUSNTARY DBBATBS. 



d^peodeolfHilf; kwvtbe pecidnr 
exensise of tbe aoveieignty of ooe 
state, and could not be swarded as «D 
act of hosdliw by another, Theex- 
eidse of it^ tberefore, depended only 
on its expedient^ in the pardcidar 
case, whore it was osdled for, Ik 
had thus endeavoured to show that the 
sitnation of the South American pro- 
vinces presented a case in which that 
rig^ could be foirly and honorably 
exercised: becanse^ if he entertained 
any doubt as to its existence, or to the 
possibihty of exercising it oonsietently 
with the maintenance c^our enestt^ 
ments, he would not have yielded to 
views of expediency 9 however prey- 
ing, or have looked to ooouxusicial 
profits, however important (Hear* 
near,) He would now call the attesv- 
tioo of their lordships to the oonsU 
deration of expediency, iirtuch should 
lead them to adopt the propositiim 
mth wfakh he meant tp conclude, 
and those consideratioDS would he 
found in the present state and aspect 
of affairs in the Old World and the 
New. In the first place, the present 
condition of Eim^ powerfully called 
npon us to adopt a course of polky, 
by which we might increase our pow- 
er, multiply the means of commer- 
oal interoourae, create new oonnex- 
loiis, and sbrengthen dioaeaUianoes 
widi new and more ooagenial' states^ 
to which we must htck as a coniienr 
aatkm fix dunimcdjed eonfidencein 
our fonner allianoesi or for aid in fit- 
tme dangers. He begged their tad- 
ships to diveet their attention to the 
eontment^Eumpe, and while they 
^ so, to leave out of view entirely 



which nahmfy ad»d on thf^ 
ings, and prevented them fiom seeing 
aoGinately thesituad<Hi in wluoh tbey 
were placed: he begged jkhem not to 
be misled with respeet to our fof^^ga 
fftkHambf a4xmfidenoe iniour-own 



selves as to our ultm^ secwnty, b^ 
cause tbey perceived noimmediiito 
danger. (Hear, hear.) 

In fiirmer times it had always bee» 
the policy of this country to connect 
itself with some of the nnlitaxy states 
of Europe, to cultivate that alliance 
with care, to employ it to suppoit our 
political views, and to enable ustoiar 
terfere with effect in a continental 
war, when our du^toourinteiests 
oaltod upon usto irrterftre, either lor 
the support of the weak luainat the 
strong, the pseservation of the inde^^ 
pendence of snwdler atates, or tbe 
geoMBval balaiioe of power in JBurope* 
(Hear, hear.) It mattered not wW 
was the internal condition or the &an 
of government of the state of our vUly 
•o^wie oould always rely ^ipon its boh- 
femment for the oUeots of the aUir 
anoe. TUs order of things had now 
been entirely overthrown* (Hear, 
hear,) It ooidd not now become a 
question whether, in a quarrel with 
Fiance, we could look for an a))^ in 
Kvssia; or urit^her^ inamisuDder^ 
standing mth Russia, we mi^texi- 
peet the aanstance of Ffaooa» Austria 
or Priissia. There was not one of 
them to which we could suooassftd^ 
appeal They all po eocpso d gnat 
standing ainriea-**tbey exeioised a 
despotic and oppvessiae power over 
the minor states, and deolaied that 
they wo^ aUomr no diaage to take 
pl ace i^ n o impvovement in ^vemr 
ment^-ao nwielioinrien c^iostiMions 
to be effected, Ihat was not in eon- 
formity with their views* (Bear^ 
hear,) We bad only to k)ok totiie 
histoiy of the last five yeaia, aad 
month by month, day by dqrt ^ 
sfaoidd see these coneeonenoes date- 
ki|Miig tbemBehea. 'Aieyhaderta^ 
bhflhed a new hw, and they caDad 
upma the eaMtter atates to ariwit 10 
4t ^at^die aKpenae .afbeiog imadad 



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171. 



1 to unpKOve her COO* 
mig a new form cf go* 
I she im ovemB^ and 
ooeiqpiedmilitaiily by Austria. Spaaa 
had chnmed the same privilege of 
changing her institQtioQs and «£ had 
been ovenun, and was now oocuped 
WtheannieaofFranoe* (Hear,haar») 
Eveiy state was liable to have its go* 
venuoeot altered, modified, and 
dianged, atthepleasoieof theaUies 
— 4o have its territory OTemm— its 
sobjects destroyed^ts ganisoDs pos- 
seMd by foieignerB, and all the ca- 
lamities of war and levohilion inflict- 
ed vfoa it witfaont msaswe andwithp- 
oot remedy. 

In order to show their brdahips 
how important it would he to raoog- 
niae die independence of die new 
states, it was only necessary for him 
to slate the increase in our trade with 
diem. From the papers for which 
be (loid Lansdown) had moved, with 
a reference to this modon, it appeared 
that our commercial interests were 
^eatly involved in the independence 
of the new states. In the first year 
in which the ports of these provinces 
were opened, our e^KutB to them 
amounted to the vahie of 3,270»000t 
This ^reat exportation of commodi* 
ties ought be sv^posed to have ofr- 
caskmedariot; and witboutaknow- 
ledge ai raetB, it mi§^ be apm^ 
bended dat the amount exported in 
die next year would rather diminish 
die increase. The foct was d» 
coaliary. In die year 1822 our 
eipoils exoeeded dMMs of the pre- 
vioos year by 640,000^ making 
3,9IO»000^! Hebemddieirkx£ 
Aips to refleet to what extent this 
incmse might go when those coun- 
tries were entir^ setded. The in- 
! of our trade with South Ame-. 



fica under independent govemmeniSy 
might ha'oonieciured Isana what hid 



takenphoeinltah America* The 
exportation fitom Great Britain to 
the pnmnces composing the United 
States, guarded bymononolies and 
restrictioDS ci m kinos as its 
ooaaraerce there was when under 
British dominion, bore no propoiw 
tion to the iiuanddes of our mann* 
factures wbica they have ronsimMid 
flinipf the ff rtffM^ th r 'iy"* of their in- 
dependcnoe; and the increase of 
our trade soon left us nothing to 
n^pret for the loss <^ our sovereignty* 
In the eight years which preoeded 
the declaration of their independe nc e 
(or between 1766 and 1774) die 
annual exports firom this ooimtry to 
Norih America amounted only to 
2,441,0001. In die eight yean 
mbkh h»re ehiped since the last 
war«<-a war which ought never to 
have been undertakai«*^wbich has 
created rancour and animosity be- 
tween nadons vriiom their mutual 
interest, common origm, language, 
and insdtudons, ought to have united, 
and the influence of which he was 
now happy to see daily subsidii^ 
.i— the average of our exporti was 
6,905,000/., being an increase of 
nearly three to one. He mentioiied 
this instanoe the more willingly, b^ 
canse it showed how folse the e^em 
was whidi shackled annmerce, how 
certain the principle of the changes 
lately introduoed was to increase our 
trade, and how surety a more libeni 
Qoune of condiiot lays the found»-^ 
tion of our proqpenty. The ad^ 
vantages which we reaped from 
Soudi America mi^ be extended 
and aooderated with greater fosoe 
dmn the rate which hk had men« 
doned in our trade with die United 
States. The population of these 
states at the first period to which he 
had alluded, was two millions— 4t 
was now ten millions. The popu- 
lation of SoQih Am^oa was naier 
twan^ 



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twenty-one millions ;_ at the same 
<fistance of time, and going on at a 
reasonable rate, it ni^t be increased 
to sixty millions. There were some 
fortunate circunstances in the situa- 
tion of the latter which did not exist 
in that of the former states. The 
slave population was small, and the 
soil was extremely fertile. 

Having now pointed out the advan- 
tages which we must enjoy by an un- 
restricted intercourse with the inhabi- 
tants of immense re^ons, and the 
expediency of recognizing their in- 
dependence, he would conclude by 
moving <* That a loyal and dutiful 
address be presented to his majesty, 
thanking him for the pajpers contain- 
ing the correspondence between En- 
gland and her allies, relative to South 
-America, which bail been laid upon 
the table ; and begging him to teke 
such steps as may seem meet for ac- 
knowledging speedily the indepen- 
dence of those provinces, and esta- 
blishing such diplomatic relations 
widi them, as cannot fail to promote 
an amicable intercourse between them 
and this countiy, and conduce to 
our commercial advantage. 

The earl of Liverpool began by 
observing, that in nearly Si the 
principles laid down in the able 
speech of the noble manjuis he a- 
greed ; he only differed with him in 
his application of them in the con- 
clusion of his speech. Before he 
applied himself to the most import- 
ant of the noble marquis's observa- 
tions, he must clear away the ground 
by a preliminary statement or two. 
In wnat was said of the tendency of 
free trade to increase the prosperity 
of the country, he concurred, al- 
though he would not enter into a 
minute detail of the account of our 
exports to Spanish America: one 
thmg, however, had been overlooked 
in speaking of that subject^. It had 
\ieeh stated that our exports Were now 



nearly four millions; and it had 
been assumed, that before the inde- 
pendence of the .provinces we had 
exported nothing. Now the feet 
was, that we had formeriy exported 
commodities which reached these 
provinces; but they did not appear 
on the custom-house returns, be- 
cause the ports of these provinces 
were nominally closed against us. 
Our manufactures and produce had, 
therefore, reached Mexico and some 
of the other states by indirect and 
circuitous clumnels. That commerce 
was now direct, and therefore the 
amount of it could be easily ascer- 
tained. In the uncertainty drat pre- 
vailed regarding it, the best was ta 
state the amoimt exported to Ameri- 
ca altogether, including the West In- 
dies, Canada, and the United States. 
The whole of the exportation of the 
countiy being stated at 4^,000,000^, 
21,000,000?. of these went to Ame- 
rica, 17,000,000/. to Europe; and 
5,000,000/. to the East Indies. A 
considerable portion of what was 
shipped for the West Indies might 
reach South America. He was rea- 
dy to admit that their late fteedom 
had much increased their trade with 
us, and he only wished to correct the 
feHacy that before nothing was sent, 
because nothing appeared He like- 
wise concurred with the noble mar- 
quis in thinking that Spain could 
not again, by her own unassisted 
power, reconquer these provinces, 
and that it was chimerical to attempt 
it He woidd even go ferther, and 
say that she never at any time pos- 
sessed the means of doing so. He 
would now proceed to the main part 
of the noble marquis's speech, and 
in answering him, he would find it 
necessary to go back to former dr> 
cumstances, as well as to state those 
which had recently occurred. It 
was well known that before dierevo- 
lution of 1808, a general belief pre- 
vailed 



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173 



Tailed among tbose best quelified to 
form an opinion that the period was 
Jiot fiur distant, when Spain, unable 
to continue her former rule, would 
be obliged either to relax her system 
cv to surrender her power. It was 
aigued that 17 millioils of men over 
a country so extensive as that of South 
America could not be kept in poli- 
tical obedience under commercial 
fpeedom, by a kingdom weakened 
out like that of Spain. It became 
therefore a question whether it would 
not be better to relax her commercial . 
monopoly, and to retain the fo,vour 
and good will of her colonies by al- 
lowing them a greater degree of free- 
dom wan to endanger a tptal rupture 
by a continued enforcement of her 
restrictions. These reflections, which 
occurred to every man, were strength- 
ened by the warnings of experience; 
and the example of England, whose 
commerce bad increased with the 
United States after the declaration of 
their independence, was cited in 
support of this principle. But all 
expectation of any residt from a po- 
licy c^ this kind was confounded by 
the events of the revolution. In the 
year 1808, when, in consequence of 
the most unparalleled aggression 
that had ever been made on the in- 
dependence of any oountiy, a gene- 
jal rising of the Spanish people took 
place, cbubts arose as to the policy 
which this countiy oi^ht to pursue. 
There were some^ and those were 
not the least lovers of well regulated 
freedom, who thought that Spain 
o^ght to be encouraged and sup- 
ported in the struggle which she was 
then commencing, in the hope that 
Europe might be heed by her ex- 
ample: others, again, thought that 
we ought entirely to abandon Spain 
to her^l^ as it was hopeless to resist; 
and diat we ought to duTect the .whole 
of our efforts to the detaching of her 



colonies firom the mother oountiy. 
Their lordships need not be remind- 
ed, that the tormer policy was pur- 
sued, and that it was completely 
successful. This oountiy was bound, 
whatever line of policy she adopted, 
to declare it openly; and if their 
lordships would look to the first 
speech from the throne, they would 
find that the integrity of the Spanish 
dominions was then stated as tbe 
first object of this country ; and this 
policy was applauded, even by 
some, noble lords that were not in 
the habit of supporting his majesty's 
ministers. He (the earl of liver- 
pool) stated this, to show how the 
policy of this countiy had been bot- 
tomed from the banning. The re- 
volution which . took place in Spain 
was accompanied by revolution in 
the South American provinces, but 
whether any of these provinces then 
entertained the notion of separation 
from the mother countiy he could 
not say; probably some did, and 
some did not In the then situa- 
tion of this countiy there was but 
one honest and direct course of poli- 
cy, and that we had pursued. Jrrom 
the beginning of 1819 — from the 
first knowledge we had of any rising 
in those provinces— we oSmiom 
mediation, and whether the govern- 
ment of Spain was j[irovisions3, whe- 
ther it was vested m juntas or in a 
oortes, we always proffered our 
^ood offices to continue the connex- 
ion of the TOOvinces with the mother 
country. There was no period since 
^e conclusion of the war in 1814, 
under the juntas, cortes, the consti- 
tutional monarchy* or when the 
king was restored to absolute power, 
that this country had not always kepi 
strictly to the Une of its duty ; and 
if the Spamsh goven^ment, had ao* 
fjuiesced in the wish dfthis countiv, 
it was probable the .result would 

have 



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haste been wy different B«t it 
088 mataM to nooliect, lliat iirlial- 
em fcnn o£ government pravailed 
wi ^Niin^^not ^ abeoliite king 
(tely*«-biit wbedier oortes or ccmati- 
todooal, Oiey all of tbem declined 
ib& good offices and mediation of 
tfaia ooimtiy ; and if llwre was any 
difeenoc in the principle of unwil- 
ISn^MKU to listen to our offers, the 
more constittitional the govemment 
was, the less they were inclined to 
listen to the proposal of enploying 
the flood offices of this ootttttyy. We 
eontuoied to porsoe the same Ikie 
of policy down to the period of 
tlw congress at Aiz-la-CfaapeQe, at 
which tme this ooontry was led to 
look to its essential interestB with re* 

rto the Sooth American c6k>^ 
He did not m«an by the men- 
lion of esMDtial intsrests to say » they 
were c&ftinguisbed from our dutv at 
aooy time. The noble maiquis had 
omitted to notiee what was our pie*^ 
sent ritoation with respect to these' 
floloiiies; what it was we had done, 
and what renxEuned to be done, in 
dM year 1822> before a noble friend 
of his (the earl of livenpool'B) now 
tt^ mtstBy departed for Veiona, he 
iMhd prepared tnstruotions winch were 
sAeiwuds given to the noble duke 
tHk) sucoeeded him. But befom 
tiiBse iastnicCiOM were all prepared, 
the go^^enHaentkad taken &eirliae. 
Ibey had subnntted to parliament 
an act whidh received the loydi a»- 
aent, and which w^t to the extent 
^ admowledging the defaoto iade^ 
Mident provmoes. Wnat was tt 
Mit was then done? If dieir lord- 
eUpa would look to the 3d of Hm 
rngf chapter 43^ iHi^ wonld peiu 
dehte that ttgaveto an those provinces 
the rights of indqiendent states un- 
der Hie naTigaiiob act, at the same 
liflie temmung the geneMl pm* 
ciple that all cemmetoe with Asia^ 



Afika» and Anevtea, aaast-be car- 
ried <m in Bridsh ships* 

We hftdOnis estabhshedafreein- 
teioooae with diose states as inde- 
pendent states, and from that time it 
was a compete free trade with that 
country. This was explained to the 
%)anish goTemment, and they were 
at the same time U^ that k wodd be 
Mowed up by other steps. Aeeon- 
dingly torn that time, me indepen- 
dent of those states was practically 
aoknowlecteed, and we wtN<e not only 
enjoying £e benefit of a free cona- 
merce widi them, but they also had 
sraated to them reciprocal benefiaa 
by that enactment which he had 
mentioned. In the month of No- 
vember in that year, as appeared by 
a letter from Mr« Secrstaiy Cannings 
ourintention of sending consolstothe 
diffierent provinces was asnouoeed. 
S(mie del»^ had oeitasnly taken piaxse 
in carrying that announcement into 
effect, as tt wm thought more d^^ 
cate.towaitlbrafewmondM, radier 
than execote it at that particukr junc- 
ture. He now came to another mosjt 
important period— 4ie meant that pe- 
riod when it was quke dett tet the 
French armieB would be snccefisM 
in Spain. At that time the govern- 
ment thought it proper to have a AA 
explanation with the Fieneh go- 
vemment, and we then dkl take the 
sb» of sending the oonsids to tiieir 
diftieat destinatiocis. We hsKMnm 
given to South Al&erica a suftxtential 
proof of our intentions, whidi waa 
worA a thousand words and admowi- 
lodgments of independence, it had 
been slated that the powers of Eu- 
rope had changed th^ inteiillooa» 
in conseqaoice of the mesBsge of 
die president <if the Umted States. 
What «flfect tint message had lad, It 
was not f&t Imn to wf ; baft weeks 
belbre wis octinftry had declared^ 
that^taqshMutnl wkfa req^eet ta 

Spain 



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IJ'5 



Spsnsin Mr connitt) 8h6woidd tR)€ 
flee #illi mdiffeieiice any attctaopts 
on the uut of odKr tountiitt) and 
ito faadTobiained from France an atl>» 
jnraBon of any such intention. Vt 
nlDiild say, dierdbre, that what had 
beendone was idl fliat could haive 
been done, embtacing every pnoc- 
ttcA advantage contiatent with ho* 
iknif and good laith. The qne^tion 
ibea lecnus, of what temains to be 
done f A fofmal acknowled{gment of 
iiidependence could ptopetly only be 
ibade by the power who ckdmed do- 
nunion over another; and, in the 
fbimal sense of the word, we had no 
right either to acknowiei^e or dis- 
pute their independence. But he 
■tonkladnutdierewasone thins which 
Mmained to be done; namdy— 4he 
opening a dipl<nnatic inteiooune ; 
and t&l was the only thii^, ibr 
eveiy ihine else had been done, as 
he Ittd before stated* With respect 
to opening a diplomatic tnteroouise, 
he would observe^ that if there was 
any diing which was more peculiar- 
ly proper to be the prerogative of the 
crown than another, it was that of 
deddii^ at what period it would be 
pitmer to open such an intetcourse 
with foreign ^tatefi. Not diat he 
dfanputed tbs right of parliament, if 
h diould think proper, to interpose 
its advice in th6 etercise of that me^ 
fogative; but he would put it to meir 
krashipft, whedier, on the perusal of 
the papers on the table, there ap- 
peared any grounds for such an in- 
terfertoce ? Tliere mi^t be a thou- 
sand i^satons for abstaimng fromtak- 
jflg such a step which it might be 
iDmojper to ^sdose ; bat hi (Ae 
earl of Liverpool) had no desire to 
conceal himself under any aoch ae- 
€ret reasons ; he had no mfficulty m 
teDkis the house aD he knew, aH he 
AiMf^kL^ all he foh on thb qtie»- 
tion. Hus bnMiglht Inmlo tlia 6oa- 



skletatibn of stfme of the gsMval 
principles whidt the noble matqun 
nad laid down, in the application of 
which he oodld not fu% agree. The 
noble maiquis had stated tlK questi6n 
of recognition as of right and as of 
expediettoe. He (lord Liverpool) 
had no difficulty in saying* mat he 
fliought this country had no ri^ to 
take such a step as to any of die pro^ 
vinces, where the contest was still 
goins on. He knew that in acting 
on that principle it would be seei 
we were not doing to othan as had 
been done to ourselves. He well 
knew what had been the oonduct of 
the house of Bourbon when this 
country had huge armies in the field 
during her contest with our North 
American colonies ; and yet at that 
time aanstance had been given ; but 
God forbid that we, in a cfaristitti 
country, should imitate sudh an ex«- 
iDunple. ife agreed with the noble 
marquis, that no country had a rizht 
to call on anodiernotto admowkc^ 
the independence of any state becaaie 
she had herself refused to admew- 
ledge it ; but that vras not the qoesd^ 
on : the question here was this-^Was 
the contest going on ? If it was, he 
(lord Liverpool) for one, would WA 
advise the taking the step of op^iing 
a diplomatic intercourse. 

Tnere was also another principle. 
Whilst the contest in arms was eo^ 
ing on, liiat was something of wmeh 
every one might be informed**^ 
Was somedtti^ nottmous; but tiierfe 
was another circumstance entitled to 
some consnieration, that whilst no 
contest in arms was ^^g on, there 
might be (and withm our know^ 
lec^) a considerable portion of te 
people desirous of reoonciliattoia 
widi the mother country; not tfarit 
be meant to aasert soch was the 
Caae^ He was ready .to admit, that 
widi tttpect to sill the prorinoes in 

which 



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PARLIAMENTARY UE^ATBS. 



ifrfuch no contest was carried on,. 
there was no question of right or 
justice whatever, but that the whole 
resolved itself into a question of ex- 
pediency; and then it was to be 
considered whether w£ had not all 
the solid and substantial advantages 
which a recognition could give. He 
thought we had. But then another 
thing was to be considered — whe- 
ther, in the abstinence from that 
cause, we showed any ill will to 
Soi^ America. On reading the 
correspondence upon the table, he 
would put it to any Chilian, Peru- 
vian, or Colombian, whether there 
was any thing in it to indicate ill 
will. Ns^, he would ask them this 
question — ^whether they would rather 
have a plenipotentiary to each of 
their capitals, or that declaration of 
Mr. secretary Canning which had 
.been agreed to by prmce Polignac 
—that this country would not see 
with indifference the junction of any 
fereign power in an attempt of Spain 
imon the South American provinces ? 
l^ie was in that the gocKl will and 
the dij^)06ition which must be ap- 
preciated in South America. 

He had no difficulty in statine 
what were the motives under whi(£ 
he acted, notwithstanding he must 
insist that as to diplomatic inter- 
course, the prerc^ative was in the 
crown, without a very strong case 
was made out to call for the inter- 
position of parliament He did not 
hesitate to say that they (the govern- 
ment) would keep the whole ques- 
tion in their hands, and as thej 
would not go to a congress, so nei- 
ther would they give any pledge that 
would fetter their future conduct It 
certainly was material that the ac- 
knowledgment of the independence 
of the pioyinoes should be made by 
Spain : but considering the con- 
jaexion which we had had with that 



oountiy, itwasthou^trij^togive 
her thie opportunity of makinff it. 
He might be told mat he had beon 
giving Spain that opportunity; but 
were nis nuyesty's ministers wrong 
in considering the present as a new 
crisis? They wished Spaia to m 
forward herself, and they were ready 
to give her every assistance in doing 
what was for the interest of Spain 
itself, for the interest of the oobnies, 
and honourable to this countiy.— > 
This, he contended, was an object 
worthy of consideration, where no 
substantial interest was sacrificed by 
attending to it. 

He was far from wishing to say 
what government the provinces 
should have : on the contraiy, he 
would say, let them take that go- 
vernment which they liked best la 
the papers on the table, re^^ret was 
expressed that America had not 
chosen monarchy; but that question 
would not govern the conduct of his 
majesty*s government; such a go- 
yemment as would maintain the re- 
lations of peace and amity was aU 
they could look to. But there was 
another question — whether these 
governments had so &r die confi- 
dence of their own countrymen as 
to give any warrant for their stabi- 
hty> It was natural that his miges- 
ty*s government, before taking any 
idtinuOe step, should desire informa- 
tion on the subject, and some weeks 
or even months might elapse before 
they could be in possession of it 
Were, then, his majesty's ministen 
so wrong in the steps which they 
had taken, that the noble marqma 
would be justified in desiring to take 
the whole auesdon out of their hands? 
Some mient think they had gone too 
fast, and liad exposed themselves to 
risk; but sure he was that no per- 
son could think they had not done 
all which they opght to have done. 

Now 



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17? 



Now his majesiy's mimsters were in 
progress to what the noble marquis 
. seemed to desire, but they wish^ to 
do it in a feir, liberal, and generoi» 
wi^. They had shown Sat they 
were detennined die provinoes should 
not be trampled on by any power or 
afimnce whatever; but, as he had 
before said, they kept this question 
in their hands as against Spain, and 
as against the alliance, and they kept 
it in the hands of the crown, as be- 
ing the exercise of its most Intimate 
prerogatiye. 

If he understood the noble lord, 
he wished to know whether the states 
of Europe would co to a congress ? 
It was impossible tor him (lord li- 
Terpool) to say: possibly they did 
not themselves know; but to any 
such congress this country would be 
no party. The noble earl concluded 
by movii^ as an amendment to the 
motion of Jthe noble marquis, to 
leave out all the words-after " Ttak," 
and insert instead, 'the following 
words — " This house gratefolly ac- 
knowledges his majesty's goodness 
in directing the papers to be laid 
before this house, and the house 
feels great satisfaction in the assu- 
rance given by their perusal, that his 
uoLJeOty^s government will continue 
m the fur£er progress of this im- 
portant questbn the exercise of those 
firm, moderate, and prudent mea- 
sures, which have contributed to the 
gkny and best interests of the British 
nation.*' 

Lords EttenboroughiOkA Roseberry^ 
and the marquis ofJjansdowny spoke 
afterwards for the motion, and hrd 
Cakhorpe for 1^ amendment; after 
which me house divided : 

For the motion - - 34 
tit - - . 61 



. Majority 



27 



£1824 



House of Commons, Marck 
16th. — Mt» Maberh/ brought in a 
bill to equalize the duties on beer and 
malt, which was lost by 130 against 
26. 

Mf. Hume moved an amendment 
in the mutiny bill, to put an end to 
military floggin?. 

Sir Htusey Vivian contended that 
the power of ftogging was necessary 
to maintain the discipline of the 
British army, but admitted that' it 
was the policy of every commander 
of a r^ment to abstain, if possible* 
from the exercise of it. (Hear.) Li 
that opinion he was supported by the 
authority of every officer with whom 
he had conversed ; for all of Uvsm had 
admitted, at the same time that they 
lamented, the necessity of inflicting 
corporal punishment on the common 
soldier. From his own experience^ 
he was convinced that the discipline 
of the army would be materially com- 
J promised if the house should deter- 
mine to agree to the proposition 
which was then before it. Some nine 
or ten years ago he had the ^command 
of a regiment about one thousand 
strong. Of a sudden, a remarkable 
increase of offences took place in it* 
His attention was naturally attracted 
to the cause of it, but he looked for 
it in vain, until he was told by. his 
adjutant, <« The men had ^t it into 
their heada that sir Fjancis Burdett 
has done away with corporal punish- 
ment, and are therefore thinking that 
they may do whatever they please." 
That such a feeling ^uld have 
existed among the private soldiery^ 
would not appear surprising to any 
person who considered the materials 
of which they were composed— a cir- 
cumstance which was very essential to 
a right conclusion upon this subject. 
Now our army was recruited fiom the 
lowest orders of society, and the re- 
cruits were in general, to say the best 
M of 



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PASUitflHNTARY DKATSS. 



of tbMt mmMAt wiUeslteorip- 
tieii. ft m^peffaapt* owing to this 
very^ dfcaowlaBoe tlwt oar anny had 
reaehod itspreBeot heigfaft of glory and 
<&tinct]on; for it was geomUy ob- 
aeevad; thai the soldier who was the 
iinttofareakoverthebanaek-walUwaa 
also the first to leap over the enemy^a 
fefftificadoDa. Cmr men of this cha- 
laetsr it waa neoessanr to exercise 
8tioi^eontR>l»8inee, if they were not 
oontrolted diemsdvea^ it was not im- 
probable that tfaj^ might atten^ to 
oontol ethers* The besetting am of 
^^ description of men was drunken- 
ness. Now he did not mema to say 
tfast every asan who got drunk ought 
to be flogged—- &r fr^ it : his prao* 
tice in his own regiment had been 
very differoit ; but he did mean to 
81^, that the power to flog any man 
wto had so ofiteded should stiU re- 
main in the hands in which it waa 
BOWVMted. ItwassaidythatsoHtary 
oonfinemeat would have aa strong 
an effect upon the men as seveie 
floggiiM;; He would adc the advo» 
oases oftthia new nfode of punishment, 
what th^ wofdd do under the folio w<* 
ii^circuiiMtances? kwaswellknown 
to every officer in the service, that 
about the settling day, ihere waa near- 
ly always a great increaae in the num* 
bar of otfNUsaa; indeed, it was not 
«xtraocdinaiy to have fifty or sixty 
flsen offending at once. Now, covdd 
he place each of these men in soH- 
tary confinement? Ajxlif heoould, 
what would be its effects? Why, that 
be shook! be comoelled to punish 
those who had not oAended, by throw- 
ing upoa their riioulders the duty of 
Ihose who had. (hear, hear.) He 
must likewise obiect to the subetitii- 
tion of extra driuafor corporal pu- 
nishment Thedrillwaaanecessaiy 
pttt of die diadpline of a regiment : 
and he did iKit khe theidea^bring* 
ing it into contempt with those wSo 



murtbeaabjeotedto it» by making it a> 
ignominioiispimisfament Therewaa 
not, however, any of these objections 
to a punishment by court-martial : it 
hung over the head of every ofiender, 
and, as none of (hem knew on vrhsna 
it might M, it keot all in a state of 
salutaiy alarm. Allowing, however^ 
that solitaiy confinement and extm 
drill might hacve the propoaed eflfect 
in time of peace, what vraa to be done 
intimeofwar? Whilst an amijr waa 
mnrrhing through an epemy*s ooin^ 
try, how was die stragEl^ or the> m^ 
rauder, to be consigned either to extra 
drill or solitary confinement? (Hear, 
bear.) It had been argned, that the 
diaoiganiied state of our army dining 
the retreat to Gorunna shewed the 
inefficacy of the severity of our pvN 
nishmfnte. But to this aigument he 
begged leave to r^ply, by stating that 
our army vras at tliat time diasi^i^aiH 
iaedy not so much from want of dis« 
cij^me, as finom the absolute stale of 
exhaustion to whieh it waa reduced 
by the fiutigues and privatbns it had 
undeigoiie. Aa he Ind upon that oo« 
caaion broogbt iq> the rear, faemigfal 
be permitted to daim some crrait 
with the house,, when he stated that 
many of our brave fellows did not 
veeeive any pnmsioas after leavinff 
Afltoiga. Hunger, it waa said, would 
break thfongh stone walls; and it 
could not surpriae any reflecting per- 
son that many of our poor atragneni 
did upon that occaaion take by KMoe 
those provisions which they oouid 
aotget by any other meana. Hie 
Freneh amy, nowevor, whose higfi 
discipline had been so nmcfa extolled 
on a fi>rmer eveniaff , in their retreat 
throurii the south of France, a couih 
try much abounded in provisionsy 
and fitMn which we drew plentiful 
supplies after they had left it— the 
French army, he repeated in that re^ 
treat, not conducted in a hurry, for 



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179 



it vctreolod id leguBi isoTCiiieQl from 
Niville to Orthes, from Oitfaa to 
Tarbev and from Tarbes to Toolouse 
—bad cxMBmhted so many abnciti£& 
go the p wipeity and pencxis of the 
infaabitantSy that they literally urd- 
oomed the BritisksoldietBasao many 
libenrtora. (Hear, hear.) hidee4 
Fiendi wnlen on the subject had v&- 
eently ftdmith?d, that the pofect di»» 
eipline whiebonrar my tb a a observed^ 
wm worth to it as. miich as ten thou- 
•and men. (Heai, hear.) Tlie gal* 
fauMlofficerdien proceeded to ofaame, 
that at present be thoi:^ that com* 
nandbig af^een mign preserve the 
4SacifixDe of their legmaents witbool 
floggings because, m general, they 
did not consist of more than two iraa* 
died and frOy men, who weie ibr the 
aostpait selected Ibrtheff goodcha- 
ncter, whose places ooakl easily be 
filled u^ sad to whooi it would be a 
heavy punnhmcnt to reeeite their 
dbduiKe. But what WQokd be the 
case,, when raiments consisted of one 
tbovsand (bar hmared or one thou- 
sand five handred men ? or when, as 
in the last war,, so h^aboimty was 
oflBeredythetit was no unusual thing 
for men to dewit ficom one regiment, 
and to mlist in another, for the mere 
saioe ol pocketing it ? Would hon- 
ourable gendemen think solitary con^ 
foiement, or anextmdrUlyasiimcient 
punidimeBt for such an offence ? If 
by any' means bonomable gentlemen 
could instil into o«r solcfiery an idea, 
not only that tkey were themselves 
disgraced by being flowed, but that 
ft legimenl was also diBgracedby hav- 
ing a man flogged in it, he thought 
that it wodd be pcodoctive of great 
advaaiage tothe army; but until such 
a fodittg was geneiated among them, 
he must ever osntend for the neces- 
sity, mindi as he lamented it, of vest- 
ing i» conrts maitial the power of 



SDck opinnosy he waaoUigedtos^, 
tkatheconldnatg|ive faiECOoaenlto 
the pseposkioD w&h had been subm 
mitted to the house by die. hon* 
member for Aberdeen. (Cheeis;) 

Sir IL F6ri^iis«m. differed from his 
gaUant friend who had just addressed 
tne house. He thought dnt the ex- 
periment proposed by bis bon. friend 
the member for Aberdeen codd never 
be made at a more auspicious mo- 
ment than the present (Hear.) With- 
in his own expeiience, a great diange 
had taken pace in the pumshmenls- 
of the army. When he font had the 
command of a rmmeaty he was of 
opinion dial its maeiidine oodd not 
be preserved widiout the inflictioB 
of corpora] punshment,and he had^ 
in consequence, bespoke with regret, 
often ordered its inftiction. Latterly 
he had adopted milder measures, and 
the result of the diange had beenad- 
mirabie. fifear,hear.) As the clause 
moposed by his honourable friend 
limbed the experiment to the troops 
at home, and as die bill to which it 
was to be attached was voted annud- 
ly, he should eeitainly ^ive it his 
support ; for he was convmoed, that 
if the soldier was at pi^^sent guilty of 
any great crime, the sooner his regi- 
ment got rid of him the better. (Hear, 
hear.) If his honourable firiend had 
proposed to extend his experiment to 
the troops on foreign service, he 
should have opposed it, because he 
was convinced that on die line of 
march discipline could not be pre- 
served, except under the present sys- 
tem. He considered summary pu- 
nishments under such circtmiatances 
to be no less essential to the safety 
of our armies, than to the mainto- 
nanceofour national character. (Hear^ 
hear.) 

Lord Palmerston observed, that 

there was nodiing for him to add, 

after the exoeflenl iqpeech which his 

honourable 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



tKHiourable and gallant friend behind 
hkn had made upon this subject 
He should resist the motion because 
it took from the commandefs of the 
amy a powec that was absolutely 
necessary to its well bei^g. 

The house then divided, when 
there appeared — 

For the amendment - 47 
tit - - . 127 



Majority - - ^ - 80 
The house formed itself into a 
tx)mmittee of supply upon the Iri^ 
miscellaneous estimates, when the 
foUpwing erantB were voted : 2 1 ,6 1 51. 
to defray Sie iBxpense of the protes- 
tant charter schools in Ireland ; 
4,400L for the expenses of the socie- 
ty for discouraging vice in Ireland. 
Sir J. Newport opposed the grant. 

Mn Hume objected to the chaiges 
for printing) stationery, and advertise- 
ments, and also to the salanes paid 
to officers. 

A convefsadon ensued between 
sir John Clerk, ^ John Newport, 
Mr. Hume, Mr. Butterworth, and Mr. 
Goulbum, afrer which the grant was 
postponed. 

The following votes were then 
agreed to :— 

18,7902. for the education of chil- 
dren inDuUin. 

4900/. for the Richmond lunatic 
asylum. 

7,500/. for the Hibernian society, 
for the education of soldiers* children. 

1;600/. for the Hibernian marine 
society. 

1,878/. for the female orphan 
house, in Dublin. 

^,445/. for the Westminster look 
hospital. 

1,400 for madam Stevens's hospi- 
tal. 

3,692/. for the fever hospital and 
house of fecovery. . 

350/. for the hospital of incurables. 



8,928/. for the loman catholic se- 
minary. 

The other orders of the day were 
disposed of, and the houseadioumed. 

Mabch 16. — ^After some business 
of minor importance, 

Mr. Canning appeared at the bar 
with papers, by command of his ma- 
iesty. They were ordered to be 
Drought up, and the tides read by the 
clerk. Tney were entided ** Papers 
in explanation of the measures adopU 
ed by his majesty's government with 
the view of ameUoratmg the conditi<m 
of thenegroslavesinthe West Indies." 

Mr. Canning then addressed, the 
house. In laying those papers on 
the table for the information of the 
house, it became his duty to take a 
review of the measures which had 
been adopted by the house last year 
for ameliorating the condition of Jhe 
negro slaves, and of the course wfaidr 
his majesty's ministeis had pursued 
in carrying those measures into effect. 
In doing Uiis he would postpone, till 
the latter part of his address, that 
branch of toe sul]ject on which there 
midit exist differences of opinion, 
ana begin with that in which the 
whole house had concurred. He 
would, therefore, desire that the 
clerk ^ould read the resolutions 
which the house had agreed .to on 
the 16th of Mav, 1823. Thederk 
then read the folio wii^ resolutions: — 
Resolved, nemine oontradicenief 
'< That it is expedient to adopt ef- 
fectual and decisive measures for 
ameUorating the condition of- the 
slave population in his majesty's co- 
lonies : ^ 

" Hiat, throv^ a determined and 
peisevering, but at the same time ju« 
dicious and temperate, enforcement 
of such measures, this house looks 
forward to a progressive improvement 
in the character of the slave popula- 
rion, such as may prepare them for 

a 



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181 



a participation in those civil rights 
tod privUeges which are enjoyea by 
other classes of his majesty's sub* 
jects: 

** That this hoHse is anxiotis for 
the accomplishment of this purpose 
at the earliest period that shall be 
compatible \idth the well-being of 
the slaves themselves, with the safety 
of the colonies, and with a fair and 
equitableconsideration of the interests 
of private property." 

Mr. Gznm?t^ continued. — ^Hewas 
desirous that the house should bear in 
mind the text and meaning of those 
resolutions, because these, and not 
any general principles, or more 
widely spread theory, had been the 
grounds on which his majesty's 
ministers had taken their measures. 
Undoubtedly there were few subjects 
which could be approached more 
calculated to excite awe than that on 
which they were then about to enter. 
Difficult, however, as it was,, it was 
less so at present' than when it first 
presented itself to the attention of the 
noose. At that time they had to 
combat with many objections — ^to 
papple with long established pre- 
judices and predilections, which were 
to be in a great degree removed be- 
fore any important step could be 
taken to forward what all admitted 
to be necessary — ^the amelioration of 
the condition of the negro slave. 
What the house had resolved last 
year had considerably narrowed the 
question, and he hoped he should not 
be understood as misrepresenting the 
collective sense of the house on that 
occasion, when he took it to be an 
admission of the evils of slaveiy in 
the abstract : that in devising means 
for the gradual remedy of those evils 
they had to combat with objections 
which time had sanctioned, and which 
time alone could remove ; that there 
were various ramifications of pro- 



perty connected with slaveiy, and 
neoessarilv growing out of it, which 
were to be attentively considered^, 
treated with tenderness and respect, 
and not swept away at once by any 
hasty measure. 

These were the principles on which 
his majesty's government had acted, 
and upon which they wished to be 
judged. If there were any who 
thought that enoi^ had not been 
done, or that more might have been 
done in a shorter time, he trusted 
they would now state Uiat opinion. 
But he hoped that he shoiild be able 
to show, that in any thing which had 
been don«t, ministers had oeen guided 
by the principle of carrying into 
effect the intention of the house most 
efficiently for those, the amelioration 
of whose condition was proposed, 
and with the least possible injury to 
those whose interests were to be con- 
sulted. 

If he had any partial feeling at 
all, arising from the habits of his early 
life, it was favourable to the principle 
of general abolition; for since he 
had first a seat in that house, he had 
ever been friendly to the definite 
question which had beei^ so long 
before parliament But^ most mi- 
doubtediy, they who were most ^ 
vourable to that measure had always 
kept but of sight this question of total 
abolition which was now introduced. 
He did n()t mean to say that he would 
be guilty of any breach of fidth to- 
wards those who had formerly op- 
posed the abolition; "br that any 
others who had been equally fiivour- 
able to the abolition of the trade 
would now be inconsistent in avowing 
their intention of abolishing slavery 
itself : but he must be permitted to 
say, that the most zealous advocates 
of the abolition of the trade had stu- 
diously concealed this, which was 
considered an alarming result of the 
question. 



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question. When he used the Yvoid 
aianmog, he did flo with refeienoe to 
the ase that m^t be msuie of 'iL 
God forbid that he should ever ad- 
vocate the piinciple of pennanent 
slavery ! He looked to the result of 
mdoal measitfes, producing gradual 
anprovement, by which not ooly tiie 
kK&vidual slave shouki be set free, 
but his station be dralished for ever. 
^Hear^ He viewed this as he did 
^e iinprovement of those states of 
Europe that once were most baibar 
fous and were now mostpdished 
He looked to it as a measure of co- 
operation and concunence from 
aU parties — a measure that wodd 
eventually make its way rather by 
the light of reason ^an ojthe power 
of coercion. (Hear.) The papers 
which he placed npon the table were 
of two sorts; the mst consisted of ie< 
ports made to this government from 
some of the West India islands ; die 
other contained exj^anations of the 
scheme which his majesty's ministas 
had adopted for carrying into execu- 
tion the measures of the house of the 
last sessioo. The fiist set of papers 
he would pass by for the present, 
and come to the second. 

Gei^lemen were aware, that our 
West India islands were divided into 
two classes, of which by hi the 
smaller portion were under the go- 
vernment of the crown of England, 
without the intervention of any local 
legislative assembly. The affairs of 
ite other portion were managed by 
popular assemblies, formed as mi- 
niatures of our own here, and not a 
titde jealous of any interference with 
their prerogatives or privil^es by the 
government of this countiy. It was 
true that the first class of colonies 
were much more easily managed than 
<he othen. In one of the papers on 
this subject, it had been suggested 
tiiat the experiments of amelioration 



should be tried in some of the SBdaller 
colonies, in the view that if (hey 
dioold be sueoesslid, they might ope- 
rate as examples for the la^r <mea. 
The colonies named were tVinidad, 
St. lAKia, and Demerara. He had 
named these in the order in which he 
conceived their former eovnnmeniB 
had been fovouiable to the principle 
of abolitioQ. Trinidad, as having 
bebnged to the Spaniards, who were 
mostlivourable to it, he raoked first; 
then St Lacia» as having belonged 
to the French, v^ were m the next 
degree fevourable to it; and Deme- 
rara, as having been the o^ony of 
the Dutch, who wore the least^endly 
to the pfinciple. First, vrith respect 
to Tnnidad, he wodd observe that 
twenty years a^ he had, assialed by 
an honourable firiend of his who 
knew much mone upon die subject 
than himself, cadled the attention of 
the government to that colony; and 
sdbmitted a motion to the erocttbaft 
it should not be pboed on the same 
footing as the other colonies, but be 
reserved for the purpose of makingaa 
experiment for the amdioratioii of 
the condition of the slaves. One 
pert of his proposition was, that the 
importation of slaves into Trinidad 
should be entirely discontinued. Cer- 
tainly Uiat motion had not the effisct 
which he intended ; but he wished 
to call the attention of the house to 
this circumstance— that that motion 
had ^ effect of keeping Trinidad in 
such a^atuation, mat many subse- 
quent motions, made by a gentleman 
whose loss the country had to de- 
plore, to obtain for that island what 
were called the blessings of the 
British constitution, but what he 
(Mr. Canning) GsQled .impediments 
to the amelioration of the slave p<^u- 
lation, unifonnly fidled ; and to those 
failures it was owiq^ that Trinidad! 
was now in a state, m winch the «- 
periment 



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183 



p^tfuneDt about to be Hied Uiere by 
go?enuiieiil would be tried aloiie» 
aad BoletteKed by any legislative 
enadmeiits. The eoinae which ^ 
vonment intended to pursue with 
vespect to the island of Trinidad 
would be shown by a reference to an 
Older in council, which had been 
nent to the local government of that 
ishuid, directing it to carry into effect 
^wiouB T^ulations for the ameliora- 
ticHd of the state of the slave popular 
tkm under their jmisdictiony fiom 
each of which regvdations separately, 
and from the whole of them col- 
kcdvely, the most sanguine antid- 
patioBB of a successful result were 
entertained* 

It was. first charged by the order 
in coondl (as it had been the first 
subject alluded to by him in his ad- 
dress last session), diat the practice, 
miaeemWas well as shocking, of fe>- 
msAe chastisement by the whip, 
should be abolished. (Hear.) It 
was but justice to say, that that regu- 
lation was also recommended in the 
vewdations passed by the West India 
body in this country during the course 
of last year; and it was also no 
more tlm justice to add, that the 
coldissts had in many instances at- 
tended to the declart^on which the 
house had made against the practice 
in question. 

The next thing which the order 
in council did, was to abolish the 
use of the whip when applied to males 
as a stimulus to labour—he meant 
that cruel and degrading use of the 
whip which placed the labouring 
slave on the sanie footing with brute 
animals. The house would easily 
distinguish between the use of the 
whip when it was brandished by the 
driver over the slave in the field, 
ready to be applied to the brute 
nerves as an incit^nent to labour, 
and the use of it as an instrument of 



puaiidmient (Hear, bear.j But 
even that distmotion would, with 
fespect to females, exist no kn^ger. 
With respect to males, the use of the 
whip would still be allowed van 
instrument of punishment under oe&. 
tain regulations, both with respect to 
the amount of infliction and with 
respect to th^ time of infliction, ibr 
the house would readUy perceive that 
the delay of the infliction of^punisb- 
ment for some time after tiie com^ 
mission of the offence was a mtist 
important circumstance. (Hear» 
hear.) It was provided that wit- 
nesses should be present at the piv> 
nishmentof a slave (hear, hear), and 
that a record of all punishments 
should be kept, by whic^ it might be 
easily ascertained what had beendone 
in that respect on any particular oo*- 
casion. With all these qualifications, 
the use of the whip was retained as 
the means of punishment, but not as 
a stimulus to tabour. These aherar 
^ons at once raised the mass of tiie 
n^ro populationfrom the bruteistate 
to tiiat of man. (Hear.) To pro- 
vide the means of religious instru^ 
tion and worship, was the object 
which it was sought to attain. That 
object was first in importance, but 
it was necessarily next in order to 
that which he had just aHuded to, 
because it was not till the slave po- 
pulsion were raised in the scale of 
hature, that measures eould betaken 
to establish that, from which alone 
all realhumandignity as well as hap» 
piness could be derived — namely, 
religious instruction. (Hear, hear^ 
It was intended to increasethe amount 
and widen the basis of the ecclesiaa^ 
ti^ establishment in the West In^ 
dies. The ecclesiastical establish- 
ment in the West Indies had been 
founded there, as it were, for the 
benefit of the white population alone. 
He was not stating tms as a matter 

of 



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PARUAMENTARY DEBATES. 



of chaige, but as a matter of &ct. 
.It was now, however, intended to 
extend the bounty of a religious es- 
tablishment to the black population 
also. This establishment would, in 
die first instance, be founded on the 
• principles of the , national churchy 
but not to tbe exc]}]sion of other 
denomination of christians. The 
authority and the discipline would 
be lodged — ^where, according to the 
constitution, it must be lodged — in 
.the national church ; but there would 
be no disposition to exclude the 
humbler labourers under that autho- 
rity and discipline. (Hear.) With 
religious worsnip would be combined 
religious instruction. With the de- 
tails on that point, it was not lus 
business on the present occasion to 
trouble the house, but undoubtedly 
,reli^us instruction was an object 
of Uie first importance, as the only 
means of rendering the slave popu- 
lation capable of receiving other be- 
nefits and of appreciating them when 
they did receive them. The opinion 
which the West India body had last 
delivered in favour of religious in- 
struction, had been voluntarily acted 
upon in .more than one colony. 
(Hear, hear.) After religion and 
religious instruction, naturally came 
.the consideration of those charities 
of life which religion promoted. The 
order in coundlstri/ctfy enioinedthat . 
the local govemmeni: of Trinidad 
should sanction and encourage mar- 
riage. (Hear, hear.) That injunc- 
tion was in perfect consonance with 
the recommendation of the persons 
.most interested in the colonies resi- 
dent in this country, and it had 
also received a ready assent in many 
-of the colonies themselves. Growing 
.out of the consideration of marriage, 
and the other charities of life, and in 
deference to those charities, it was 
provided that in alt future sales — 



he feai:^ that he must still use that 
word— care should be taken not to 
separate famihes. (Hear, hear.) In 
conveying slaves from one property 
to another, care would be taken in 
future that husband and wife, or 
reputed husband and wife, and pa- 
rent and child, should not be severed 
from each other, but should uni« 
formly be taken together. (Hear.) 
It was also intended to cause tlie 
property of tiie slave, which was now 
respected by custom, to be hence- 
forth respected by law. The pos- 
session of property would create the 
desire of bequeathing it to others. 
It was, therefore, enjoined that mear- 
sures should be taken to secure U> 
slaves the power oi bequeathing pro- 
perty at their death, and it was also 
proposed to found an institution 
which, inasmuch as it was a late 
invention of a country far advanced 
in civilization, it would appear sin- 
gular should it be supposed capable 
of taking root in a rude society like 
that of the West Indies — ^be meant a 
bank in which the litde savings of 
slaves mi^t be accumulated, with 
the additional advantages- that the 
tie of the law and the over-watching 
eye of public opinion wo^d continue 
him in the unmolested possession oi 
his property until he died. By these 
measures the slave would be lifted 
firom a level with the beast of the 
field, and take his stand amongst the 
human race. 



" Jnnit, et erectos ad Men tollene Tultus." 

After bestowing upon th^ slave 
population the endearments of family 
connexions, and the blessings of pro- 
perty, it became necessary to advert 
to a subject which was sunounded 
with many practical difficulties — he 
meant the question, of the admissibi- 
lity of the evidence of slaves in courts 
of justice. It would be as wild to 

say 



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185 



say thai the evidence of blacks should 
be indiscriminately admitted in all 
cases, as it would be unjust to exclude 
it in all cases. In this country, a 
pera<m in the situation of a slave, — 
he did not mean politically, but mo- 
lally ; he alluded to an in&it, whose 
mind was supposed to be not suffi- 
ciently expanded by age — ^was not 
permitted, to give evidence without 
the production of some certificate of 
its fitness to do so. It would be im- 
. proper to admit theevidence of blacks 
without a similar guard. This had 
led to the grave consideration, that 
it would be eminendy useful that 
those persons who were to have the 
instructing care of the negroes, 
should have it in their power to cer- 
tify, not with respect to a particular 
case in which the evidence of a slave 
misht be wanted, but generally, that 
suck and such slaves had made such 
advances in civilization as to be cog- 
nizant of the nature of an oath. It 
was advised that a register of such 
slaves should be kept, constituting as 
it were a privileged class, and form- 
ing what was the spring of all human 
action, something like an object of 
ambition to their ^Uow slaves. (Hear, 
hear.) Under this arrangement the 
competency of a slave to give evi- 
dence would not be judged by sub- 
jecting him to an examination to as- 
certain his fitness at the moment 
when his evidence was wanted, but 
. it would be known at once when a 
slave was proposed as a witness on a 
trial, whether lie was one of that class 
whose evidence had been certified 
to be admissible, not with respect to 
the particular case on which he was 
called, but in consequence of his 
seneral demeanour. (Hear, hear«) 
U was no more than doing what 
.was just to state, that under certain 
quahficarions, the evidence of slaves 
was already admitted in the courts of 



justice in the islands of Grenada, St. 
Vincent, Tobs^, and St. Christopher. 
On this point, as on others to which 
he had adverted, many of the colonies 
had voluntarily acted upon the re- 
commendation of that most respect- 
able society, the West India body in 
this count^. He would at this part 
of his address also state, that in con- 
sequence of the recommendation of 
the West India body, several of the 
colonies had placed such facilities in 
the way of manumission as were cal- 
' culated to remove many of the com- 
plaints on that subject The question 
of manumission was alluded to m the 
order in council, and it was distincdy 
prescribed, that a n^ro who has 
•acquired sufficient property, should, 
under certain guards and regulations, 
be entitled to purchase his own free- 
dom, or that of his own children. 
(Hear, hear.) He knew that with 
respect to the. last point— namely, 
manumission^— great prejudice pre- 
vailed He was far from saying that 
it was not a very perplexing question : 
but it was very important to know 
that the practice already prevailed to 
a great extent in St Kitt's, and was 
also in usage at Trinidad ; and he 
' fek bound io say^ that no regulation^ 
ought to be considered as impracti- 
cable, when it should appear that its 
spirit had, even in a single instance, 
been voluntarily enforced in the co- 
lonies. ' (Hear.) It was astonishing 
how much good might be done by 
assembling into one point, and bring- 
ing to bear on one society, all the be- 
neficial regulations which were scat^ 
tered through all the diiferent colonies. 
And whilst he admitted on the one 
hand, that the existence of those 
beneficial r^uladons was an answer 
pr^nant and eloquent to the decla- 
mation which had been heard about the 
general neglect and abandonment of 
die negroes by theWest Indian society. 



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he JORHt on die other bHad oontend, 
4bat people in Ma oooHtiy, wbo, on 
«ooomit of their distance firom the 
«oloKeB wefe compeUed to look at 
ijbtsm through the eves of «then, 
tsoidd B9ver get so good «i authoiity 
ihf their proeaediiigB, asthe^ictthst 
ivtetthev willed to recommend was 
abeady found to be volantarily adopt- 
ed there. (Hear.) 

He ^vvas awanediat widi respect to 
the last point alluded to in the order 
in council-^the right of slaves to 
piHchase Iheir own or the freedom of 
meir chikk«n — government had gone 
beyond ^e general aas^it of the 
West India body, whilst they had 
Men Teiy short of the desires of 
some persons. (Hear,) He knew 
veiy well thsct an hon. gendeman 
opposite (Mr. Buston) last year stated 
that he was disposed to go a shoiter 
way to woik, and to enact the emwi- 
cipadonof a particular race of slaves. 
m (Mr. Canning) ielt bound to de- 
clare, that with the most sinceie 
deftre to come to a condusion most 
convincing to himself, and most &- 
voureble to the' cause of humanity, 
he could not concur in 4he hon. men^ 
ber*s proposition. If it were carried 
into effect, it would be productive of 
the greatest injury, not only to the 
white population, but also to ihie 
blades themselves. The hon. mem- 
ber was not disposed to enaneipatie 
the existing generation of slaves. 
Certainly not To let in the full 
Ii^t of freedom upon eyes scarcely 
loosoiedfrom the scales of bondage, 
would indeed be goii^ too far. The 
negro would view the freedom winch 
was presented to him as an unin- 
stiucted infant viewed objects of de- 
sire, without the posubtiity of calcu- 
lating the distance which separated it 
from them. (Hear.) He believed 
that it would be extremely unwise to 
hokiout Ae hope of cmancipatkm to 



the next geneiatioii of negroes, ft 
•could do no good, and it vmdd oafy 
create d i ssBtimc t k)n in die aaindi of 
the existing race. To them it wiauld 
render present cadstence intokndile^ 
-and the expectation of the future a 
subject of r^ret Woidd it not be 
sallii^tothe parent to know, that 
his <£ki was destined to enjoy the 
inestimable blessing of liberty, for 
which he lumsdf mustsi^h in vain? 
(Hear.) Hie course which goveiB- 
ment proposed to pmue was much 
wiser, viewed with reference to the 
operation of moral causes-^namdy, 
to make the parent the mstnment of 
the emancipait^on of his child, if he 
had the power, and chose to exercise 
it, of gtvmg freedom to his ofifepiing. 
(Hear.) 

If the rising generation tSboM be 
taken under the special prdtectioQ of 
the legislature in the way wfaidi te 
honourable member p roposed, pft- 
renlB wouki look upon their chikmn 
with feelings, he would not say of 
«nvy, bmwhidi would be any thng 
hut those which parents oii^fat to 
entertain. By the course whidi go- 
vernment had prescribed, freedom, 
when it did come, woidd come, as 
every good thing in this world did 
come to human nature, by endea- 
vours honest and successful, and by 
laborious exertions-^AoiMl faaikm 
esse viam. He vras fully persuaded 
that freedom, when acquired under 
the regulations prescribed by govern- 
ment, would be a saferand a moie 
stable pleasure, than if it were tiie 
gift of a sudden enactment, lliey 
must deal vrith the nesro as with a 
person possessing sense, but the sense 
only or an infimt ; and, before he * 
was prepared for the enjoyment of 
wdl-regmated liberty, to turn him 
vrikl in the fulnessof his i^ysical 
strei^, in the maturity of his phy- 
sical passionB^ and m the infaiey of 

his 



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isr 



hk uiiiiisbnicted reaaoo, would be to 
ik&itBle Uie man who was described 
ift the romance whidi hsd been pub- 
Ikhed some dme bade, who oon- 
ataded a hmBn form with limbs 
of mofe than mortal mould, noitD 
^Hiich he inteed passkms and 
strmglh whidi was to it onlv te 
power of doing mischief; but being 
unble to impait to it a soid, he 
faond that he had created only a 
aaorage giant, from wUch he himself 
leo^ed with honor. (Hear, hear*) 
That woiiU be the effect of sadden 
and unprepared emancipation. He 
dierefore wo\M proceed gradually, 
becanse he would proceed safely. 
lie knew that there were those who 
agreed with him in opinion, but went 
beyond him in his enthusiasm, and 
who said that his plan would require 
time. Take time!— to be sore it 
w«uld«— to be sure it diould-^to be 
wage it must What ! had they to 
deal with a creation of yesterday-— 
wii^ a thing which had grown vap in 
their ^e— of which th^ had watoh- 
e4 ^ growth, measured the extent, 
and asoertained the means of ma- 
naging ? No ; they had to deal 
w&a thing which was of the growth 
of centuries, and tens of centuries— 
which, was almost coeval widi the 
dehagt — ^iiriiich had existed, under 
more or less modifications, since 
man was man. (Hear, hear.) Did 
they, in the fulneas of their passion 
ibr legislation, think diat after only 
thirty yean' discussion, they couikl 
now manage the most unmanageaUe 
peihf^ of all subjects ? (Hear.) It 
was necessary to proceed gradually lo 
leanedj the evils of slavery, and to 
watch with an anxious yet patient 
eye the ^ro^ress of the experiment 
finom beginnmg to end. This led 
him toobserve, that die system which 
he had broittht under the constdenh- 
tion of the houM woidd be applied 



xntheisbmdofSt Lucia as w^ as 
in the klend of Trinidad, with tfab . 
exception — ^that in the latter case 
the machinery by which it would he 
api^ed would be %Mmiih, and in tbe 
lonner it would be French. It was 
«lao intended that the iqnBlem sfaoidd 
be subsequently applied to DemenneB. 
fie might be asked what efiect the 
measures which government had 
adopted woidd have on die oiher 
West Indian islands yrhteh had j»- 
ceived die oomiAunication of die 
wishes of parliament in a spirit wUeh 
was certainly any thing but conoilia- 
(oiy. (Hear, hear.) He might he 
called upon to slate what would be 
his modebf dealing widi them, and 
how he would bring them to seonnd 
his views. }£ it were possible, on a 
subject invohring so many important 
consequences, to nonrish a feelingof 
irritation at the mnner in which the 
eovemment, and more paiticubriy 
himself as a membfrrof that govern- 
ment, had been treated by some of 
the West Indian islands, he an^t 
have a desire to resort to aomethmg 
like measures of vengeance. But he 
entertained no sudi feeling — he 
should think it most unwise to do so. 
(Hear, hear.) In the ebullition of 
spirit, fiir he would call it nothing 
more, which had taken place on the 
other side of the water, be saw much 
to condemn, something to excuse, 
nodiing to punish. (Hear, hear.) 
There were three possible modes in 
wiiich parliament might deal with the 
assembly of the island of Jamaica — 
iizst, it might crush them by the ap- 
plication of direct force ; secondly. 
It might hanass them by legisladve 
enactments respecting fiscal and na- 
vi^on regulations ; and tlurdfy, it 
mi^t ma» its displeasure by a si- 
lent course of admonition. He was 
for tryins the last of these modes first : 
he hoped be ihottkl never have oooar 

sioa 



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to try the second; and with respect 
to the first, he would only say that 
it must be a question of real necessity', 
and not one arising out of a feeHng 
of wounded pride, which would in- 
duce him to moot the question of the 
transcendent powers of parliament 
over every part of the empire. (Hear.) 
Th^ was a question which ought to 

' be kept back within the penetralia of 
the constitution, to be oiought £br- 

• ward only when it was necessary to 
oppose, as it were, the plague of in- 
surrection. It would be vety easy 
to select, from, die files of the Jamaica 
GdzettSi passages which ought, ac- 
cording to all legitimate inference, to 
put parliament in a most towering 
passion. (A laugh.) But he must 
confess, that upon considering the 
subject, his rising indignation was 
cahhed by reflectmg how powerless 
the body was that offered the insult, 
and how omnipotent the body was to 
whom the insmt was offered. (Hear.) 
The consciousness of stren^ dis- 
armed vei^eance, and he might say 
with the great moral poet — 

** Qqos eg(v— Sed mottM pnestat componere 
flnctut.*' 

If there were any gentleman in the 
Jamaica house assemUy who had 
determined within himself to establish 
his popularity by opposing what he 
would call the encroachments of the 
mother country, and had began to 
prepare himself for the task, by con- 
ning over the speeches of Washing- 
ton and Franklm — if diere were any 
young statesman'of Jamaica who had 
thus worked himself into this state of 
desperation, he would be disappoint- 
ed of an opportunity for the display 
of his patnotic ardour. (Laughter.) 
Parliament would act wisely by tell- 
ing the people in the West Indian 
islands, *< You shall have no cause of 
comdaint; if you will be angry, it 
shall be on the colonial question ; 



and if you rebd, it shall be in bc^f 
of the use of the whip." That would 
be the best way to stop tke eloquence 
of the patriots of Jamaica. If par- 
liament did not add fuel to flame, 
the fire itself would soon go out 
When the refractory colonies should 
come to know that it was not the in- 
tention of government to send out 
commissioners to control them, or 
an army to overawe them, he had no 
doubt that the spirit which had been 
stirred up there would subside, and 
that they would consider with calm- 
ness, and ultimately adopt the regu- 
lations which government intended 
to enforce in the island of Trinidad 
and other places. Indeed, when the 
situation of the West Indian islands 
was considered, with St, Domingo on 
the one side, and Columbia on the 
other, and surrounded by Trinidad,- 
St Lucia, and Demerara, it was im- 
possible that they could long resist 
• the example which was held up to 
them of ameliorating the condition of 
the slave population. So far from 
government entertaining any hostile 
feelings towards Jamaica, it proposed 
that, that island should especially 
participate in the advants^e of the 
newecclesiastical establishment which 
was to be sent to the West Indies. 
It was determined that, that establish- 
ment should be divided between the 
island of Jamaica and the Lee- 
ward islands; each being n^e the 
residence of a see. 'Hie new eccle- 
siastical establishment would not be 
attended witli any demand on the 
finances of the islands. He would 
not trouble the house with a detail of 
the expenses of the new estabtish- 
ment, but would content himself wi& 
stating that those expenses would in 
the first five years be defrayed out of 
the interest of the sum which his 
right honourable friend the chancel- 
lor of the exchequer had announced 

hia 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



189 



bis intention of appropriating to the 
building of churches. It would pro- 
bably be some years before any part 
of thiat sum would be employed for 
ihe purposes for which it would 
be voted ; and during that time the 
interest upon it couid be applied to 
defray the expense of the ecclesiasti- 
cal establishment in the West Indies. 
Andwbenthe money began to be 
applied to jhe buildmg of churdies, 
the expenditure would be gradual* 
and therefore the diminution of in- 
terest would be gradual. But when 
no support from the West Indian ec- 
clesiastical establishment could be 
longer derived from the sum to be 
set apart for the building of churches» 
parliament would be saved the neces- 
sity of making any new grant by tlie 
gracious resolution of his majesty to 
abstain from any further distribution 
of the 4\ Barbadoes duties, in order 
th^ that fund might be devoted to 
the maintenance of the new ecclesi- 
astical establishment. Having been 
much more desirous of putting the 
houae in possession of the principles 
on whidi government had acted, and 
of the plans which they had formed^ 
than 01 stirring up angrv feelings, and 
exciting the passions, he would ab- 
stain entirely from all general reflec- 
tions' on the very interesting and 
painful topic to which the attention 
of the countrv and of the colonies 
was thoroughly awakened. 

It was imposuble to effect any 
amdioration of the condition of the 
slave, except through the nieans of 
tl]£ planter. ' To stir up discontent 
between them, would raise a flame 
which could only be extinguished in 
blood. (Hear.) Ifany measure should 
be proposed for the amelioration of 
the condition of the slave population 
in the colonieis in a spirit of modera** 
tion, govertunent wpuU willin^y give 
its support 



There was, however, connected 
with that state from which govern- 
ment was endeavouring to rescue so 
large a jpordon of their fellow-crea- 
tures, the con«deration of the in- 
human traffic by which they were' 
brought into their present condition, 
and for the totM abolition of which, 
as far as r^arded this country and 
her colonies, the friends of humanity 
were indebted to the exertions of the 
honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. 
Wilberforce.) He was perfectly con- 
vinced that the slave-trade was entire- 
ly abolished with respect to bur co- 
lonies. He knew that other persons 
entertained a different c^inion; but 
having made the most anxious in- 
quiries on' the subject, he felt hiinself 
perfectly competent to say, that with 
respect to the British West India is- 
lands, the prohibition against the in- 
troduction of slaves was effectually 
and sacredly observed. (Hear, hear.) 
But it was perfectly true that the in- 
troduction of slaves into foreign cqIo- 
nies continued to an enormous extent 
(Hear.) All the efforts, of this coun- 
try to procure the active co-operation 
of other powers to put an end to the 
traffic in slaves had been ineffectuaL 
Among the plans which had been 
suggested for the purpose of putting 
a stop to that horrible traffic, it was 
advised that all. persons guilty of 
slave-trading should be obnoxious to 
capture, not only by the vessels of 
their own country, but by those of 
every other power— in other words, 
that the slave-^rade should be de- 
clared piracy. 

It was supposed at the congress of 
Verona, that it was competent for an 
assembly of sovereij|;ns to declare the 
slave-trade a piratical offence, and 
thereby to make the individuals en- 
^ed in it amenable to nationi^Iavir* 
This was a complete, mista]^ . En- 
gland was the last. country, in the 

world 



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#QrU to admit lihat any cmagBtn of 
aoverei^seoiiU oonatitiitea lfiw,iiiu- 
mrsd in ite operatioii, on slates 
wbick had not Wa a paity to k. 
(Hear, hear.) The only ymy^ then, 
lliat aeem to be left for ejBTecting the 
dosdred object, was for each state to 
dadsrasiav^^radiiig to be a pirati<H 
cal act, and liable to the same pu- 
QjUunents as what ia Ei^la^ ivas 
caOed staMabkrpiraqr. The Brkisb 
govBemment had aba ptoposed to die 
ffovermoents of tfaellBitea States and 
France, that they shoold ^ve by trca^ 
ty the right of nntiial visit and seaich 
in caoea of suspected piiacy; but the 
house wiKikl not be saiprised, coi^ 
sidbcii^ die asany Eore points of 
maritime kir and national pride 
which such a proposition must touch, 
that it was not v^ warmly received* 
By Fianee it was rejected altogether ; 
bik he was happy to infonn the house, 
that not many days flinoe a treaty had 
been signed by the ambassador of the 
United Skates on the part of his coun- 
try, and by him (Inr. CasBinff) on 
the part of dus countir^ which ao- 
thoozed a vessei of either nation to 
detain diat of the other, ifit should 
be detected in carrying on the traffic 
iia siavea ; proiridedy nowever, that 
baih ooimtnes sfaaH have cstaUiahfid 
-dm same sansdon with respect to die 
nature of the crime* (Hear, hear,) 

The United StaieehM by ^"^ ^^^ 
the penakyof piracy upon theAmeri* 
can akwfr^iadew 

He (lir* Canning^, punning die 
same prindple, meant to move for 
leave to bring a bill, to diange the 
fMunsfament dieady provided for Bri- 
tish sabjede convicted of the crime, 
into piracy (hear, hear) ; and torn* 
dff tW alteration ooBiplete^ asa pie* 
liminBry to the radficadon and aooj^ 
tiian of that condition and i^raement 
fay which America and GbMt Britain 
had deteimmed ta utb against te^ 



skve*ttaiie, not 01^ eachof dbeir 
own, but each of the odier nadon. 
(Hear, faear^ 

This was not the time nor the op- 
pertunitv to enter into an wrphmation 
of the details of the arrangeaaents 
entered into between Great Britain 
and die United States. Those who 
reo^lected the great and insurmount* 
able difficulties which had hidierto 
obstructed the completion of any 
definitive artangeraents between tfaie 
maritime powera of diese govem,- 
ments, must rejoice to find that in 
diis instance thqr were eventually 
adjusted ; there were on both sid» 
points of dignity reserved, boundariea 
of maritime law unbroken, matten 
k«A open for revision and reeon- . 
sideradon upon other occasiona; bat 
vpaa the queadon of die 8lave-tnule» 
the powcis were mutually eomplete 
— d)ey were defined, ample, and ef« 
fectual Each had reserved the ad- 
minismtion of its own nadooid hew, 
for die punishment of its own sub- 
jectB, though the capture of eidier 
was to be common to bodu (Hear, 
hear.) For instance,, il an American 
ship should capture a British slava- 
trader, she was to remit the captured 
vessel to the nearest ship of war of 
her own nadon, or to her ntareat na^ 
tive maritime port, for final adjndU 
cadon. Eu^h countiy had bv thia 
anangement saved for heraelf ihead- 
ministraHon of her own kwsy and 
avoided the difficulty of eonfoimdii^ 
intemadonaljurispfudenoe. HetraaU 
ed that die realization of diis airange- 
aaent would not be the termination oi 
its benefits; for when Eur^ sawthe 
two greatest maritime nadona in die 
worn so for compromise their mari- 
time pride^ and act together for the 
aoooflBfMiment of cmdi a purpoae, 
Ihey mast foel in die ftilure ^faeus- 
siona for the univenai aboitbn of 
die dave tiade^ the united lemon* 

strance 



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PARUAMENTAIY JXESATEa. 



191 



dnnoe of such powen urouki leoeiie 
oa small force, and fonn, aod cfaa* 
nder, in boi^Bg othen to tUak 
with them upon the necessity of 
coning to a eommon undentandingy 
to sa^^wft that truey viftuous, and 
beneficent confederacy, for the total 
abolition <^ the slave trader (Hear.) 
He thankedthe house for the patience 
with "Vffaidi ^ey had heaird him, and 
oonduded by monng for leave to 
faiing a bill for the more efiectoal 
suraression of the African slave-* 
trade. (Loud cheeis.) 

On the question being put fiom 
the<j)air— 

Mr* Fowdl BtoBlon waetoexpnm 
hiB. cordial simport of one paitofthe 
.110^ honourable gentlemRn'sspeeeii^ 
whilst he had to regret, to another, 
and he believed the more important 
part» he was under the painful ne- 
oesnty of giving his most decided 
opposition. In<&ed, when he was 
tfans called upon to discuss over again 
wlMt he had noped had ahready Men 
conduded, he tek that a subject was 
nnfoirtunalely and impolitidy 10- 
opoied, which he hod expected, un» 
tadunig^ was. termiBBled for all 
agestooomCi. 

Last sesaiim the government had 
fomsUy taken the West India slave* 
tade under its ovm especial conn-* 
deration, widi a positive and specific 
l^ed^e thatit was expedient to adopt 
deeiai^ve meaauiesfordie ameUoration 
of the. slave popuhtiDn* They had 
Naolved,nMttiecoii(r«Kiicsnte^ '«That 
it 18 expedient to adopt effectual and 
decisive a su as n re s fo r am elioratingthe 
oonditiDaofthe skne popidatk>ttin 
tnsn m jesty^ft colonaes. That, though 
a. determined and persever i ng, but at 
the saaoe time judicious and tempo* 
fate (load dies of ««kearr£roBa the 
oippMite benches) enforcement of 
Ihia house lookr fov*' 



tnudta a 



in the dhuaeteroftbe slave popula- 
tion, such as may nrepare them for a 
participadon in taose civil rights 
and pnvileges which are eii^oyea by 
other daases of his majesty's subjects. 
That this house is anxious for die 
accomplishment of thia purpose aft 
the earliest period that sbdl be com^ 
patible with the well-^eing of slaves 
dieuMelves, with the 8a£^ of the 
colonies, and with a foir and equat* 
able consideeation of the interests 
of private property." (Reiterated 
cries of ^hew," from the opposite 
benches.) Such wm the pledge 
which pasiiaoMnt had given upon me 
sifoject, and what had been the i^ 
suit? Then it would, periiaps, be SBod, 
that the cokxudl l^slative bodies 
would not consent to the reoonmen* 
dation of the British government 
What was the right honoumble gen- 
tleman's own dedaration on that 
point? hesaid^ «« I think &ey will ; 
but if they do not, we have a righto 
expect that they witt give their rea* 
SODS unecfuivocally ; and that any 1^ 
sistanoe which swuld partake of the 
appearance of contumacy would eeiu 
tamly make out a case which woidd 
bring his nBJesty'a ministers again 
into parliament to consider vdntfoiu 
ther proceedings they woiddoGUDsel 
fortheadoplibtt of the crown." Pint, 
then^ the raokition of last session, 
was a gcnesal one^it plec^ged the le* 
gishtive to an amehorationof attthe 
slaves in all die countries ;dwre woe 
no resewatioiia or distinotionB no 
grades of comparison with refeienee 
to whieh iskuod waa better or w er ati 
Sudi being the pledge, the next mies* 
tkm was„ had itbeen MfiBed? for if 
it had, then there was an end to the 
present c ons i defa tion— they were da* 
oamd from foctfaerintefforence» i( 
however, the pledge, though not di« 
reotW abandoned, waa saMeddawa, 
aadberaa liltla^ and dieie a litA^ 

taken 



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\imemk of-b0inff|fbr«Httlv »l<vnflB^ ^ vamti ikmcAiy\ hgd^4om^' ii^Wmx, 

plied, '«iien:jtepladg^«aMQtDg^fthcr«' earner '«*iiom0 piakcaoowsiig^H:. 
inooaiflet^ ;< fw tleQife of inoro raAerdMa^B|iiiMitfDtg»eiiiidfmiwlys 
n^^'pan laipay witheat .one dbm : hy^i umAra^ ^Kmmamkick^ .imd 
b«nigtakenlopimioteitfae«nd!wbicdi pledged Mol8etf«irfnnMytek' /)(tteeqc»<i 
had>:be«i m 4K)lenil]y detentibied'* hc&r.) nW]iiitoqiroMibBBn(l9ifihim - 
upe&: ]W3nt'ufid.-^!a9r''H»aiii)b3fi'i wMl)eiBi)nble:irfhi«cbidHfrtioidjt^ 
leatmg' dK -quetticm ' w a) gradnidl^-v mniMfibpvDokiifa* ^l6kA^',^ffoackanrH 
nttanios-^ibr the.liglil ofiMflMXi^U b^gmbrdnd i»ikB«^«^ teiMriaMb^:' 
(cfie^ of *« hear/'* firom the benebeB- oitefaitateBetkng dif&ndti8sV-'U>ftT^ 
opposita) ' Whitlie]tieaiit«as»lhat-* ter ^kidxit^^JiniAiJidiak >yoiL.4a4'tiBli.; 
ifjdicy^ were to kave the* Biattir ^kft ' st^nred^'ilitbar doDrtDdlave 4fataiiiM'<^ 
the light'Of Teason,' after Ibrfeitmg a a pkdgfe vAdAyrsBkotdy inadetoibe* 
their, pled^ they nig^ wak for ten^ abandoned) twhichwaa tmlif caknii* 



ceaturies' before the ametioiatkm 
weidd be acoompiished* He was 
boand-toeemplaiathat the goveni- 
nihnt had depaited from its pledge 
toft^slave popidatioQ of aeven hun- 
dred ^bofsand human beiiigB>-— a 
pledge Bot ezpreariy given in words, 
but' a tacit viitadunderatanding, and 
therefore the more sacred, ai^ one 
whkb oaght to be particuiarly in« 
violable, when those in whose behalf 
it ought to be enferoed had not the 
power of Gomj^oiBt ^Hear.) No man 
appioved' mote than he ctid of the 
oroer in oonncil, the general piinct- 
j^ea-of which (whatever were its de- 
tails) were soond and juaL Sofiuraa 
thalonler inooandl went, andso fior 
only; he admitted the plofee had 
beett ^thfuUy ftdfidled. The £nt 
pottttwas that wfaieh lelated to the 
flog^ng of fenaale ilaifeB, and wfaieh, 
aooeiditig to the piopond arrange- 
ment, was^ he was shodfied to'.^nd, 
notwithstanding die general reproba- 
tion it had received, to be continued 
in Bsnety-nine out of one hundred 
paits of the slave population*. He 
must protest against this arrange- 
meiitr He knew how he ei^KMed 
JhinwiBif to the rEfproediea of hia op« 
^poBBM lAi^ll^ tS0ki^9*«coiB9l^ ' 



lated to excite hopes, and than fevel* 
them vfithtitt dost? (Heaiy hearJ) 
How can you aeooadle w^.that 
pledge, thascattiny down of Ihe benen 
nt from the whole Aiolupelaga t»^m^ 
single island ?" As the law would 
stand, a female slave mi^tbe s tPBtcfc- 
ed upon the earth, and presaeddown 
by tour negroes, whilst a>£fib oaed 
the cart-whip vpon her nidced bodjf.^ 
Tnie it was that this outrage waste 
beabolished m Triaadad. 

The right faoixiunible geatieaaan 
had most eloquently deaenbed Ae 
moral scale of trnpsovement through: 
whioh these unhqipy peopte hd te 
pass before they were qualified finr 
the enjoyment of cirilized.priTiliBeea; * 
but in the case of these .wiwldiea ft» 
males, oould they hope fi>r one step 
towardi moral amelioralion^ tiniBex- 
posed in a state of nakedness tddn 
vile kdliodon of the lash? CoaUtii^ 
hope, under sucban ordeal; ta liod 
the. young negress chaste, modaat, 
reserved, and decent in fa^ deport- 
ment, as long as she waaliabletatlie 
pahiful, revolting, degiadii^, and 
shaaieleas expoaure of tRrperscaiuii- 
derthelashofhertennentor? (Hear, 
iiearv) They, had^ indbed, faeea toki 
t)f tlfifiGeH«MBdMB9of dMsewfaani 
fettisde% 



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FAMUUUWffMnr 



IM 



tod iriMrit Mch 
die &ot» hoir wMkfOMU^to 

imponible, to kag « ^ odioia 



(hear, hear) ; ukTyet* notindielaiido 
ing the pontive baaeaeit of dtt piao* 
tioe, diqr woa now to begin wkh 
<mly a patdal aMkkm of it-^thqr 
ipere*to eomneiioe widiapopuhaioii 
of tiieotf-4iPO diounad at Trinidad; 
and then- in one or txvo odier small 
jdaoes, wfaeie crown hoids existed; 
and finally in Demefaia and Berbioe» 
leaving ahnost nnaffiftcted the latgsr 
papulation of seven handled thou* 
sandilaves. 

How hadtfae proposition toranofe 
die caiUwhip been veceived at Ja- 
maica? Inatoneof wounded fed- 
ings<— of supposed injuiy'-^of exes- 
pasted nugesty. How had it been 
received at Barbadoes» which hearted 
of a superior class of jMOprieton, 
essi^ more of Eaghsh feeling, 
I a zieater identity widi the edu- 
, habit^ and mannen of £i^ 
riishaen ? *Had they not read Mr. 
Hmnden'sspeeohatBarbadoes? And 
he be^^ed to speak in some degree 
of commendation of that speech, lor 
in some parts it breathed a temper, 
avowed principles* and conv^ed 
tfaem in a tone of moderation wmch 
waaoommendabie. Mr.Hamdenhad 
staled, that he was a friend to the 
cdocatioa of the slave population, 
povided that Great Britain paid for 
It-— he was also against Sunday mar- 
keiB— 4ie wiii&vouiaUe to the maQ»- 
ndssion of slaves ; but when he came 
to the question of flogging female 
slaves, he seemed to have iMt all his 
.tanper,.and talked of lord Batfaasst 
;a8 a man who was an enemy to the 
cokmisa, and jdie victim ofafiuia- 
tical fe^ng. In &ot Mr. Hamden 
joked on the johiect of Henale flof- 

£1824. 



fairaig a tendency to dw cast of 
Aauaott^ and that their hnshMnfa 
woaU be eUseme^ sony if thsy 
wcM nat beyond the madi of the 
cssa^rhip/' Thejokemifffatbevcrf 
good, but, as he woidd presently 
shoa^ the amnnent was aeiy wretol^ 
ed* Bntithadhsennaorathimonea 
baoad^ insinuated, that feaoafe skvea 
were not flogged in the West Indies. 
He nnntindictfd that aasertiMi, and 
challenged any man to deny the 
flagrantfact He hadrefenedtothe 
West India newspapers for the last 
six or seven years, and the instances 
of inflicting this puaishment vapoa 
females were frequent and noto^ 
riouk He would lead some of these 
cases. The first was the case of Ms. 
Hoggins, (not the notodous case of 
that name) in 1817, at Nevis. • Ha, 
on <me occasion, had flogged two 
male skveB, and leaming^iat two 
female slaves who had witnessed the 
punishment were observed to cry->-* 
not ina loud shrieking manner, but 
in a natural tone, for that was dis* 
tinc^ affirmed by the bystanders*— 
this Hoggins said, *'Bruig out the 
ladies ;" and he then, in the poesenoe 
of the men, had them flogged, and it 
turned out that one of them.wasihe 
sister of one of the males who had 
been flogged, and ;fchat the punislv- 
ment at which, she had cried had 
beeninflioted.bythehandof his fi^ 
ther : this agency was at the time, 
he believed^ unintenti<BiaL Tbene^tt 
was die calebratad case of the ncnem 
Aniflanc% at JSarbice, which had been 
often quoted. Thedeisyman (Mr. 
Rs^) ind described his having seen 
her back in long furrows from the 
punishment of die whip, and her 
wounds in a state too horrid for 
description; she had been flogged 
naked on all parts of the body , and 
being at the tuna in aatateof preg* 
N nancy, 



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PAI&IAMENTAIIY UBMLIBS, 



ttkre. She hitd receitedone himdfed 

Ift^efiuch side 6f fact to hifliM tken, 
ittad Iftieti tad fyiiiiteen ^ys' <itt&Mr 
{Mttiiidiitent in the stocks* Th^fe 
^«rtt €QiCilhertet mentionediiy cdlonel 
'Ailhiif, tit lf<widcfftt§, '«i4ieb- a female) 
'alter beit^ stt^n^ d(»tm in a poei^ 
^tfiim tyf 'gi^sitt Mtufe, was be^butMisly 
imd imitetLly flb^ged^ rmM her 
^ifOQiidi became "so festei^ irota 
^forced 'esrpMom to the ftun, as tocto«- 
^dattgerber fife, «d[id for this offence 
Hie figgreesor "was fined 502. Jamai- 
^ek Y;im«nev, abbut 35J. dbnling. In 
flondthr^ m I'S^l, there niras another 
tatie of a female, vramed Peggy, who 
tti a supposition dfbaving made a«9ay 
-wilha nandkerdncf, was (logged, and 
'aftefWardiB confiwed in a contaigiouB 
htie filled wMi vermin and mnsqni^ 
Hob, nom'whidbfehe made her escape, 
"btt wa» retaken mid 'exposed to the 
'Kahie tranLARuefft agam. (Hear, hear.) 
Hte^bject in reddng these disgusb- 
4ng cases was to ^tiew, that the prac- 
tice of 'floggmg females was noioii- 
TTos and welu^tmded-his argu- 
ment was, that it on^t to be tmiver- 
^tSty abdhshed from its manifest and 
intftritabte tendency to debasemetft. 
'lie bated the practice, firsts fiibm 
'te neoessfliy «4fedt iifjon the bra^ 
"Mtp^ttaior of the pnnifAiment ; 2dty, 
ntnn Its cruel^ to the wretehed sttf- 
Ihrer ; and 9dly, because itobirionBly 
'kft!pt down all promise of improve- 
ihent, and dcffiled the morals of bodi 
'peMfi^ Thecart^whip, infect^taid 
'moral improvement were utterly in- 
*eompstilm»-^hey most have either 
•one or tbe other exdusiwely, for bodi 
wM not exist together. (Hear.) 
Lodt at its-effect, accondme to Mr. 
Hfeunden^s description of Uie sense 
eniaktuned for it by the n^io faas^ 
bandi* Mt. nsmden is in Umb r^ 

n^A^^Mi t^mt^^^^ ^ka^^k -»■- I fall . « 1 i ---> - «- 

•vpBCE ciuier imiy nr laneiy wpvB" 



MHied. -tfhe.weie^nieinbiai 
itfent, tkiit theioaLes wooU rsgmtiii^ 
Mmvvral of this, soit of pooirimeat 
iftom their wivea, see ihe dveadfol 
mond degradation and state of movai 
tai^tttde ifito which these slave ha»^ 
bands noftiSt have fallen, when they 
made such an avowal. Nowallsenae 
of moral feeling most have heen es^ 
lActed tom the human nundy when 
a man <»iild declare \m regret tlMtt 
his wife 'or mother, c\M or sistciv 
should be exempt fiom the odiows 
andpainM^figiadation. (Heai^bear«) 
ff it were felse, then it showed bow 
dangerous it was to deoend upon the 
ittformalio& Sbid 4o be ioeaUy ac- 
quired by die planters. There wsb 
one impatation which had hmm caat 
upon we «heititioBist8» which waa» 
tfaait he and those who thought with 
him, had embarked in wiki mid«aD- 
Mvagsi^ theories for tn>]onial legia- 
talton. (Cfies of «< hesr*' ftoa tftn 
benches opposite.) Let die chaiwe 
be openly made, and it shoidd Se 
opeidy and esphciOy met. <HBaa, 
hear.) Let it be brought fenmd^ 
artide by article, tad. 'partiadar by 
paiticifor ; let them take ihis vefejr 
case of limiale flagging* Had tin 
oppotients of the praotioe «alnm 
ertfaerthe fedings of dmt hsose or 
the ooootry upon that pnnishfloBiit? 
Certtdniy not, for boditfaenght hstt. 
gentlemanand the house caikdfer its 
oeesstion; th^hadgiv^napledgtSo 
tescme the femsle share finom the QiM- 
whip of the driver. He would n«w 
pmoeed to the right honoanbls gtfi. 
deassn's seoond point«^4he use «f 
the vdap as anplied to male shsres, 
to stunulafee them la hdxrar. Tht 
Westlsdiaplanfeem^deided thsft.tbe 
whip was home for the nurpase %ii 
being such a stimulus: nesr ooidd 
Ihitdeiiialbe veosadldl wilii tbair 
ithmtanoa to abolish the 'piaotita wf 
heariMgitf Anlaiaosaalilemtahar 

who 



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PAMJAHENTABT SBMLTIiS. 



IM 



ulio WW the^tfopfltodanlhnrof ftptti^ 
yite iipcm tfan qnsilm, md» *<t]ntt 
tlie yifksp ii to tne nimttging driver 
wte ihe mace k to the seigeanUttt- 
«nag of llie koiue of comDioiiB (a 
iBRvh), viidllaitU waB just as rational, 
and preeiBelf as troe^ to assert tbat 
llie seigmit-nt-anai oani6d that mace 
far the pnrpoaeoftTiodring the heads 
c^memborssB ikey «nteredthe faooss, 
«ito svf tiistt die mananng disveia 
«arfMtfaawiiipto«tifliwte theb^ 
iRNsrofthesbefesL'* But hoireoukl 
he i«€ondlethis statement with te 
aceoa&K which he read in the ool»- 
nud newspapets ? in these he saw 
lapeated mstanoes of flogring : the 
ittiate upon the wretel^ Tictims 
were palpaUy descrihed ; their eoaia, 
and ibte positions of them, were da- 
ndled; iM in one year a friend who 
laoked over for him, (lor he ooidd 
MA examine them aH himself) di»- 
^tyvesedfive htmdied mnh cases de- 
•crihed within that space of time. If 
the w(hip weie a mere mnbol of 
^md badge of mUio r ily ^a 
^ofabamfouscnstom, how 
i those mavfcs upon the backs of 
die slave populatioii? (Cries of 
^ Pio/') He woidd say ^ yes,'* and 
iidd, thai tmtil tfiese few days, he did 
«ot beKeve diat a practice pvevailed 
^stamping the «ames of ownersand 
itair estates with hot tion upon tbe 
bodiai ofthesemfaappy people. lie 
woiM giv^the tiAlowmg descriptions 
^sonaways and sales from tiie West 
india papemt — ^Bets^, who had 
Ike letters M. 1L and 1. 0. upon her 
liri* shoidder, togedier with several 
4wiar letters not eqaallypfani, upon 
lier breast.** ** ^ater, marired with 
tt oowvandiheletten A. & R. O. If . 
P. L L. K (a laugh) on his breast*' 
Theiaovalenoeotmis bmtalpmcdoe 
oosia not be demed. He adanttad 
'tutL no jaspuUiiiihg ptopf icsof woidd 
aoiwa, bift itwaaaa undoubted'tet 



dnt many olhenof safaioir< 
were less accupulooa. 

The neitpoiBttowfairiiliewo^ 
advert was that respectinff ndigMa 
worship^ and te dIfiuHm sf reli^ 
giott instrnctioD. In the pso prie ty 
of that difiusbn ha endrety ooncun^ 
od; but he hoped he was wrangln 
supposing that the m a ssiu o ari es and 
dissenters were to be piaoed tokber 
the control and direotioii of thecfandi 
estabfishment if thqr were, heacw- 
dcipatod, bodi here and die West 
indies, ins u r muuula bte obstaoles to 
dua sttfejection. The nmadooariMi 
would ne^rar fall, in tfaatrespoot, into 
die views of the estabiidMd •ebundiu 
The next point rehsed to tbe saah- 
riage of the shwes ; and tfatre ha saw 
no difiiculbf tn carrying into efleot 
the proposed anan^emenL With 
respect to theacqoisition of propert^jf, 
he approved of die anangemeat 
which gave the ibroe of law to "die 
previous validity of custom. 1^ - 
nei^ point rebted to the reception of 
negro evidence ; and on that bemost 
say, that to refuse the evidence of «». 
groes was to refuse to tbe whole 'Of 
me negro pepudation the protection 
ofthefaw. m die whole populfltoi 
there were about fifty thousand wfaitsa 
•among seven hundred tiifHwatid 
hkegks; so diat if the Ibfmer were 
equaflr scattered over the sorfaoe of 
the cdbmes, they wovM stand an lli^ 
raBo of one to ibwieen ; hot thay 
were 80 situated diat th^ did mt 
reside in the pvopoiftion of one to 
one hundred on the same ^Mt wiih 
•diebiachB. They were asrembledisi 
towns, and these individuaii were 
tlndyaoettered-os«r te^ trades 4f 
oountiy. So that noChmg coiM bfe 
esBier than to commit the mostliaiii- 
ous crime upon a black, and 'far the 
criminal to screen tdmseliPlnMn p«- 
nisbnent AwMtomanmigfataMl 
bimaslf of the abasace at « i 



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PAKMAMSNXABy liPBAZSS. 



mooMSDt of another white man, and 
perpetrate any yengeance upon a 
iie^» whose fellow slavesy in their 
iacapacity to give evidence, would 
be left without redress. He oould 
nxove by the evidence of the planters 
^emsdve^ that crimes often went 
unpunished in the West Indies ow* 
ing to this veiY ciicumstance. In a 
lefott made by the two hou9es of 
drcaoada upon this subject^ it was ^- 
pressly stated that ^at difficulty of- 
ten arose from the inadmissibiii^ of 
daves as evidence — that artful in- 
dividuals took advantage of it to com- 
mit acts of open injustice in the pre- 
sence of slaves, and that they often 
escaped punishment, though guil^, 
because their guilt could omy be 
proved by negro witnesses. He 
could quote the tesdmony of Mr. 
Chief Jusdce Odey, of Mr. Wylie, 
and of sir W. Young : to the same 
effect, sir W. Young in one of his 
despatches to the government at 
.home, had said, " Punishments of 
slaves, accompanied by circumstan- 
ces of great atrocity, have been re- 
ported to me, which, for reasons that 
I could give, have never been visited 
with the judicial castigation which 
tfiey merit." He would not trouble 
^ house with the whole of sir W. 
Young's despatch. There was, how- 
ever^ one sentence in it so very ap- 
plicable to the present argument, that 
h^. could not, on any account, con- 
sent to overlook it The sentence to 
which he s^uded was short, but at 
the«une time expressive. *4 think," 
says 4ir W. Young, ** that the slave, 
by law, has no protectbn whatever." 
If that were the case, and it really a^ 
peared to him to be no over-state- 
mieiit» he woukL ask what was the 
reason of it ? The reason given by 
the colonial advocates was, that the 
negro was so isnorant on all points 
of religious oblation, and was so 
totally regardless of the sanctity of an 



oath, that it was moraUy iiiyowiVIe 
to put any reliance upon his teatW 
mony. u this were really so, thes 
had the colonial le^ktures acted in 
a very strange and moonsistent manr 
ner ; for the very same dauae which 
enacted that the negro should not be 
received as evidence against a white 
man, permitted him to be received 
as evidence aeainst a black* If his 
total disr^urd of truth were sufficient 
to disqualify him as a witness against 
the one, surely it ought to be con- 
sidered as sufficient to disqualify him 
as a witness agaunst the other. It 
^was, indeed, marvellously strange to 
reject him as an evidence where only 
a shilling of a white man's proper^ 
was in jeopardy, and yet to admit 
liim as an evidence, where the very 
life of a negro was at stake. lie 
would ask, lK)wever, was the ncgio 
so regardless of truth as he had b^B 
represented? He cared not in which 
way the question was answered. If 
he was not, it was monstrous to deny 
him the protection of the law on ac- 
count of his notorious falsehood ; if 
he vras, the fact disclosed the baneful 
nature of slavery. According to the 
pledge which it had already ^ven, the 
house must acknowledge th^ the te»- 
timony of slaves ought to be received, 
or it must abstain from all future en- 
comiums upon their moral cc»ditian 
and happiness ; it must say that sla- 
very took away from man the ^' os 4ttfr- 
lime^* which nature had given lujn^ 
that it forbad him ^^calum ^um"r— 
that it prohibited him from raising 
his countenance to Heaven, *^ Erectof 
ad sidera toUere imftu^"— that it 
compelled him to imitate iht humUe 
and downcast look of the brate cresh- 
tion — that it shut him out of the pale 
of humanity — and that it made turn 
an unworthy and degraded tenant of 
the noble fi^e of man. (Hear.) He 
now came to that p^ <^ the ri^ 
honourable gentleman's proposition 

which 



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PAKLlAftfilWAin' WfifektBS. 



197 



^AAxii rebted to die writ of tiendiHoni 
exponas. Whatever might he said 
m other ports of the system, nothing 
ooald be said ibr this ; it was too 
atrocious to admit of defence, for it 
cut asunder, with the most mirelent- 
in^ barbarity, all the ties of consan- 
gmnityand affection, and rendered 
uKwe passions which were bestowed 
on man by nature, as the sources of 
bjs sweetest enjoyment, the sources of 
his most excruciating miseiy. The 
master, it was well Imown, could sell 
Ins slave; so also could the tax- 
gatherer. He could adduce several 
instances, if it were necessary, of 
slaves havii^ been sold by the tax- 
eatberer to defray his demands upon 
Sieir roaster's property. The credi- 
tors of the .master could also seize 
upon the slave and sell him for the 
dschaige of his master*s debts. Last- 
ly, the master himself might die, and 
his property be divided &tween his 
heirs ; one of them might choose to 
take the wife and children, and the 
other might choose to take the father 
of a family. The recent trials at 
Demerara had furnished him with an 
instance exactly in point on this part 
of the subject. In August last — (for 
he preferred recent instances to.those 
of more remote date, and had all 
along referred to them)— in August 
last, there was a man slave on an 
estate called Clonbrook, whose name 
was Billy. This man had lived with 
one woman as his wife for nineteen 
yean, and had by* her a femiljr of 
thirteen children. The proprietor 
of the estate, a Mr. Rodder, died, and 
his two sons divided his property. 
They separated the children; thev 
to^L the slave from his wife ; ana, 
as an aggravation to his distresses, 
placed mm on a different estate, and 
threatened to flog him, if he ever 
went fipom it to see his wife or chil- 
dRD. Hiat was not all the suffering 



whfeh this poor man bai! to endure r 
he found that he was advertised for 
sale, and he could not tell whether 
he might not be soldto a master who 
lived at a very considerable distance 
from his former place of residence* 
Tbe day fixed for his sale was the 
27th of August The insurrection 
broke out on the 18th, and the house 
would not be surprised at hearing 
that this slave did what any man <» 
common feeling would do, under 
similar circumstances — ^he joined the 
insurrection; and when the last des- 
patches left Demerara, he was hang- 
ing in chains at Geoige town, as an 
expiation for his o&hce. (Hear, 
hear.) 

It was wonderful that a system 
which tended to the production of sa 
much misery should ever have been 
sanctioned m colonies governed by 
English law ; but it was still more 
wonderful that it should be allowed 
to continue after it bad actually mo- 
duced such a catastrophe as he bad 
described, and after all its flautal con*- 
sequences were deariy exposed to 
the view of the public ' He knew, 
that in the house there woiAl nt pre- 
sent be overwhelming majorities a^- 
gainst any alterations being made in> 
It: but he also knew that in the 
country there would be an irresiatible 
hostility to any measures which tend- 
ed to prolong the continuance of it 
Slear, hear.) He likewise knew.that 
epeople of England, with that gal*-- 
lant,and generous spirit which ri- 
ways led them to take the part of ihe- 
desolate and oppressed, wouki not 
allow the pledge which had been 
given last session for the amdibra- 
tion of the condition of the davesin 
aJl their colonies to be frittered down 
to a mere partial amelioration 'of 
their condition in the island of Tri-- 
nidad. (Hear.) ^Though, for some 
cause or other which he could not 
explain, 



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rARUAMENTARY DEBATBS. 



fi9Jbii», ht M bemsoreptesented: 
lie. hiKl always Mid, * compensation 
ti>ibe planters-— emancipation to the 
fbijdraa of the slaves." Tbe re- 
mrks which he had fek hunselfcaU^ 
ed upon to offer that night to the 
hoBse had not been prompted by affjr 
fceUfitgB of hofldlity, resentment, or 
ioleresL Hostility to the planters he 
bid nerer felt; resentment for their 
•ppoeition he had never experienced ; 
nid interest to gratiiy he had non^ 
escept so much as each iodividml had 
in the general interest of humanity. 
It would give him the greatest pletU 
siire^ if bysome means or other a plan 
could be devised which would gpve 
liberty to the slave without hurtii^ 
tiM ieelings or injuring the property 
rf the planter. (Hear, hear.) 

M^.aiL EUii stated hii bdi^ 
that none of the Creole negroes were 
mazked as the honourabte member 
had represented, indeed, as fiir as hit 
own experience went, which vras^ 
however, limited to Jamaica, he ocadd 
pontively assert that the feet was not 
avthe faonouiable member had stat^ 
edit 

Formerly, he said, masters amid 
calcidate with great certai^ upon 
the BMky of theu^sbves. When he 
was in Jamaica, his boose, of which 
tlKdoor was never dmt either Bicfat 
orday, viae situate in a plantation 
wheve he kept one thousand negroes 
at woriL At tfttt time he entertain- 
ed no alarm §» hit sccunHy; hn 
hnewthsi he could keep his door 
epen in perfect safety; but he would 
not say tint he could do so at nre* 
aant Upon the causes which had 
podoeed such a dmnge in the feeW 
mgs of the negroes towaids their 
masteft, he would not offer a single 
observation; it was enoi^ to say 
that the change was most anfertunate 
en maiqr aooounts, and particubdy 
80, as it formed a great impediuKnt 



to vxf future i m pro^ ei aw nts iii Am 
condition of the negro. 

Whilst the negroes were exneeu 
ing that every ^dket woidd oiing 
them the paper which would secure 
their freeaom, bsdA briieving that die 
house vfas ready to bestow enfrasH 
dtement upon them, andvrasoi^ 
prevented by the obstinaor of theur 
masters, was it IDcehr that they wouli 
be contented widk their sitnation, or 
tlMt they wodd accept with sati^foe^ 
tion any measures that were intended 
fortheirinmtovemeat? Ontheodier 
faimd, wfailit the masters were inw 
psesaed with theidea that the negraea 
were 'waiting with i mpati e nce for 
their freedom, and were determined 
to wrest it fit>m diem by violenee, 
if they could not get it peaceahly-^ 
whilst they were refleetiBg iqxmte 
hcQOTB to whidi such an attempt had 
given rise in uiother island, and 
whilst th^ were daily fearing lest a 
repetition of them dhouid tB& pbce 
in their own setdements, wasitnatii- 
ral that they should feel inefined In 
rdax their discipline, or to give up 
their time to aefaemes of improvement 
and amehoratiQn? Such imtatioii 
as at present existed between Ae 
master and the slave was not at all 
compatible vrith the* improvement 
wfaioi the house wished to wAb in 
the moral condition of the latter. 
(Hear.) To forward such impnoan* 
ment, it mndd be necessary to m»- 
derate the feeMn^B ofbodi peitiea; 
they must allay the excited hopes of 
one of them, and abate 6ie inonlasata 
of the other. (Hear.l The prodn- 
mation, whidi they had that msfal 
been told was gewff to the mat 
Indies, vras, from the pedae and 
definite manner in whidi it was 
drawn up» of great importanee, and 
vpondd, he trusted, produce diewMsal 
sahrtary cffectr in the craarter for 
whidi it was intended. Important, 
however. 



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PAI^UAJP^TARY {W&^tSS. 



m 



hffV^^Wm M if m^ in iUudf^ it wa 
readewd atill mare unportaM by tbe 
dlwar {Mlvaot9geg whiqh it b^l4 Q«il 
t» the view dfthe West Indian col<>r> 
we^ Indeed) the only sine fouibda* 
lioo on wiuch iheir futuie prosperity 
awddrttt, was the ia«>rov^ne&t ^ 
the moral condition of their iahahh 
tantflv etfeded throi^ the medium of 
seUguMie iostructioB. Hewftsther^- 
fere extremely ^wi that the govern-) 
meat h»d at lenj^kh determined to 
give to the cojbnied the benefit of a 
better churcfa eetabliabment. 

Wheo ibfi ciAowsl l^;ialatuiee 
found ont that the government and 
parliameot of Great Britain did not 
uiltend to enforce the measure which 
they bad recommended to their adcfK 
tion» and that they were not anxious 
to employ the tUtima r<Utb of power, 
hot only the arfumewtmi ad verer 
sundiam^ they would no longer feel 
any j^alonsy aa to the interference 
of the parent stale, with thei r internal 



Hommrabk gentlemen, by follow- 
iag another course, mi^ excite iUr 
wiU where they wished only to codt 
ciliate, and might spoeadra{HQe,and 
death, and desolation, as had been 
reqeatly done in St Bomiogo, where 
they only wished to spread peace and 
eamfixt* and general nappiness. If, 
kawewr, they wished to acooo^dish 
a wQik of ival phibuathTopy, they 
wmkioQvdially join in followinff this 
eense wiiicb had been pointea out 
hgr bia right bonouiaUe friend, and 
Uk acting iii mien with the se^esal 
ookmial legislatuita. (Hear, hear«) 

Mr, WilUrfopm said, tbtf he bad 
Intoned with gKi^ delight to his ri^ 
boa* firiend^ plan for amelionting 
the oonditiQii ot so^maay thousands 
aC Uft felVraMseaturoi, and that bis 
oA^fianow WK, ijbait that plan bad 
neibeeaaffried ontoagieaterejEtenl. 
it wa^ tbeiefeie, necessary fee him 



friend waa €ippoBC»it to himi on tjbft 
weoent oubject^ Before he did i^ 
he would remind th« house that h«i 
ri^ hon< frirend had re^Klto the ho^vi^ 
the s^olutiPBS which it b£|d pa^^ 
last year on thia subject* The hon. 
gentleman v^ had preceded him^ 
badinformed the house that these r^ 
sciutiona had been miawuierslood im 
ib^ coloniea. Why were they so 
misunderstood,^ Thevwepeascleariil 
their meaning, ^ defii^ in tbeis 
t6nns» and as explicit in their bow 
Kuage, as resolutions possibly oo«ld 
be ; apd be thou^t that no peKSQii 
could misiaukrstaad them» who did 
not sit down to do sow His rabi 
hon. friend had formerly said tbat 
he hoped his nropositions wonU be 
kindly received by the colomes, bat 
&ai if they were not, we must sriH 
perform tbiat part whi^sh duty required 
of us. What, however, did his rigbt 
bon, friend say now ? Why, he told 
the colonies, '' We vriU trust to. your 
own feeling of your own duty» and 
to your own sense of your own in«> 
tereats. We will give you a pi^tem 
at Trinidad of what we think you 
ought to do, and we trust that ywr 
good feelings, aa well as your oonv 
meroial interests, will soon lead, vou 
to follow Qur example/' If he bad 
now copie into the house for thafinft 
time, he mi^ p^baps indulge in 
hopes of some kind and bumoae 
meaanrea emanating from the cokmial 
kgiakuure owii^ to such a zeeomt 
mendation; but after the kmg expe«^ 
rienoe which be had of then oandui^ 
it wQuU be worse than triflin^^^ 
would be absoliite criminality in bssa 
toindttlge in sudh flattering andcipai^ 
tionst OP to linger in his measun^ 
when the tempi^ and eternal hap* 
piness of immortal bein^ lake faiaki* 
self was the matter at issqe* HeeoiK 
tended that ive ought to ooncilialftilM 



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M* 






ooiiU iv>t, we ahovid pMsm 

sioer th^ Unpr^ioiv which our. n^ 
cent CQnduiQt> seemed t^i We JSRfuie, 
both oa tbe.iD98ter a»d qq th^ #l^€w< 
With regaxd to the first, h^ called. 

Xn im howe to CQD»deir under 
it drcumitfapfies they had refused 
tos^opt, inai^shap^, thei»M>lutiQii»: 
of the Bntbh parhament ? Was it 
at a time when we wece acting to^ 
waids them in a spirit of frigid in- 
differeocey or when we weie with* 
drawing, at their reauest, apctMect 
which would have aestroyed tneir 
monopoly, and were showering fa^ 
vour after &vour on their heads? 
Could the right hon. gendeman hope 
that the recommennation of par- 
liament to the colonies would have a 
decent issue from that which it had 
in 1797 ? It perhaps mi^ht, if he 
had to deal with gentlemen m the oo- 
lollies, like the W member wfao 
had just sat down. Hecould wish to 
God he had ; but, unfortunately, aU 
die liberal, well-educated, and af- 
fluent proprietcifs, lived, not in the 
colonies, but in Er^land. It was 
recommended at that very time, he 
meant in 1797, when there began 
to be a cry that the abolition of the 
8lave4rade must take place, when 
tbe strong interference of gpnem- . 
ment was expected, that die colonies 
riiould themselves, by an improw^ 
course of policy, readier such inters 
ference uonecespary. Aseoietaiyof 
state, luMwn to b^favouKable to the 
odoni/oB, joined in thatrecom^»end*. 
ation; ^god a diculaiE letter waasent ^ 
out, declaring that uxdessthe colonists 
took son^e effecto^ steps to. remedy 
the mevanc^s that were oomplamed 
of, mat abolition of iribach th^ w«re 
in such deep apprghwwioo. would be 
earned nitoe&ct. Bntwhatwastfae 



cm^m^sm^^Jim 6te|idsr<tfi*9^' 
lj^|ihiW9r{t3M^ W»fc U*» eo*f ' 
teflFqptrrt^ir «m^sentsati#na wem 
viewed with.^perfeet qcorl- So it^ 
WP¥id<betn<;yW'; a«ilbei«HistteUU>e, 
hf^fm' «ao^ ame^rel V and solenmly^ 
tl^,it was faisdeilibeiate and fined 
opinion and Mief^-^an opinion 
waichf a? far as it could be confim- 
ed» had becoii confirmed— that 4«i^ 
were now on ihehnokof a-firec^ic^ 
and if th^ did not take eate» dwr 
woukl fund that the more they panse^ 
die less eneqgetb. they were, the^ 
greater was thedanger likelv- to be* 
come. (Hear, hear.) He knew i( 
had been said, he knew it had been 
promulgated, by thosebaseaits of 
calumny which had .often been w^ 
sorted to bbfore, that he^Mr^ Wilber*. 
force) had seot pamphL^and papeia . 
to the West Indies,, \i4uch hadlpre** 
duced a baneAil effect. It nsa^an • 
absolute folsehood, which he shoidd - 
be ashamed to have reasoQr to disown, ' 
did he not know that such, vile states, 
ments flourished naturally in the;eU 
mosphere and soil of Blavery^-H^ he; . 
not knowtliat those who eaUedthem ^ 
iiUo life and gave them €«rre«eyyf 
were only acting in their piopcr : 
spheie» (Hear.) What waa the dwifi 
Were not af^ppehensions entertaiMBd-' 
of the danger that miffbt aiose fma.* 
tl^ akwes being made acqnaititad 
with the debates ^duch took place in • 
that honie? And did these wh»* 
viewed the subjeet es he didi <eiide»<» j 
vois to propitiate amoi^ thepLthe - 
tid^gs c^ the change that was «iten4^ ' 
ed? Certainlynot; hut meetings ^ 
were held in eieiy iiwriA of JknMa 
—•^assemblies weie <K)i)sraped in eiieqr- 
island <tf the Aiitilies> wbere Ihoee. 
measuMa wefe'e«|VW9d»^\«i|d^ te - 
stiQBgest laaginpi waa iiseA— hue*, 
gqagswhieb; showed « dimailkli to i> 
setetdefianoe the aetfwwiy of 4hia-* 
country. 



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iiatJumNfm*'iEimm&'^ 



m 



WcBv ifldiB. Rewspaper tnatTRe^'in^ 
sOR«ction M Bai^badoids,' in 1816^, 
w«9 prediMd Ir^th^ coniidMet|M]h^ 
IB tins ootmtiy ; and the paom^p^ 
went on to say, that if the insinr- 
reetion had gone on to itefhllextent» 
'^ we (the cokMrists)- oouH not poe- 
tatfy have existed.'* This appeared 
IB 'die St Sdtt*8 newspaper. Bikhe 
tfOBid take the iafaoid of Jamaica as a 
s p e chnep ' of the wh6le. in every 
parish of that island meetings were 
Md, and everyone who took part in 
those piroceedings, when he returned 
home naturallytaUied overthe events 
of the day before his domestic negroes. 
ITrt conaecfsence was-^it was vain to 
deny the'fact-*-thatthrot^ the whole 
sihtwi popolalion there was one feel- 
in^f that somefting essentially bene- 
fiittal was intended to be done for the 
negroes, but that their masters would 
not aUow it. Such being the caise 
in Jamaica, such being al^ the case 
in the other islands, the negroes were 
in*4t sort of tip^toe expectation that 
something would be done for them. 
What, then, under these circum- 
ataneea, wodd be theeflRect of pro- 
loBMd defiberation ? What would 
ba me-foelings of the negroes, >!idien 
they foimd tMt pariiament was at a 
lam how to proceed h — when they 
foond the king's g ov en un ent and the 
sccfWmy of' state (whom they sup^ 
Mied to be so firm and siaoerea 
UMBd to ' th^n) ' were at a stand ? 
Why, the eonasquence woukl be, 
that Aom^peoj^le to whom the cup 
of I w otan had baen' off6Kd*--who 
saw it dancing' and spafkling before 
thair eves, tNit ton wlk)8e Kpsitwas 
siriifenfy and'toiexi^ieetedly dashed^^ 
woiiU,ili despair, take th^r atm/b 
into tbeirowtttWiikr (Ikar, hete.) 
He eCMihl aolettftilf airf , dart the' wth* 



nDm iiie Doneui'tir niB' ponr-'^yfWit 
thrilstieh an'eventltoi^hthevefoecttf;' 
(Heat*, hear;) " StOl^itw^ a dons^ 
quente which he boilld notlMrt wp^] 
pichend; and, as iln'bodest miln, i(! 
was his doty to state that apprehen- 
sion. ' (Hear, heaf.) What else, h^ 
ariced, could be expected, when, 
having approached men in datlme^ 
having admitted the light of day t6 
break upon the gloom of their sittai- 
tion, you now suddenly 'wiUkhaw the 
boon, and consign them to darfcneia 
again? (Hear, hear.) Whatever 
inrliament did, he advised them to 
do it quickly and firmly. Let them 
not proc^ slowly; let them not 
tamper with die feelings and passioAs 
which had been excited. (Hear, hear.) 
Certainly he could not conceive how 
it was possible for a few yean to 
pass over without serious disturbances 
in the colonies, unless parliament 
acted with diat promptnett, that^ 
spirit, and that temper, which wovid' 
prove that they had this question 
really at heart. Let every man ap- 
peal to himself, to his own expe- 
rience, to his own feelings, for the 
trudi of the position which he (Mr. 
Wilberforce) had laid down. Did ' 
not every one know, that misfortune ' 
was much more easily borne when 
BO efifoit had been made to remove 
or alleviate it, than when means, 
which ultimately proved unsticc^fl^ ' 
fid, excited momentoj hope inthe 
b#east of ^e simerer. Was not hi^ an- 
guish redoubled ? Was nothis n^seiy * 
renderedniraiiy insupportable ? Wlien 
h6pe was once suffered to beam tmon 
the h^ait, did it not set the' whole 
man in a fever? And when die c^ 
jeet of that hope was deAorrcxf or 
destroyed, wasnbta^feeling^ofdespe* 
ration ' often ' matiifisted? Lefthe^ 
honte ree«;t on that dreadfiil con- 
vulsion. 



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9imAijmmAfK WMJBSs. 



it HOI. by tctflin^ ivMi the bopes and 
AiM»of tbape0p]»o{Fnmoe, ttiaiLtlwt 
^mbteiWfitosmn w«a pvodaeed:? 
JV^^ let them oonteiofdate th^ 
Q(Wne» wbicb.hAdQeoiiBced at St Do* 
ipaiogQi The n^ttoooiiiable seeee- 
iStfy »^ be too vdl informed not 
lo bi^ir the real cansoof the mischief 
tjMM. TbeiTeri cause was, that the 
Fieiu^ conwQlMon weie continuaUy 
^fltng wiib the hop^a and feaia of 
thpi^ who were moat interealed and 
Hioei tfMtisMt^ ixmnected with that 
laoloAgiu Tboygmatedpolitica] power 
and aiithori^ to the oolonists, and 
took them away andn, even, he bc^ 
l^od^ to the third time. Thistyeato 
nwnt (oused th^r indignalMo; aad 
aft laat the po|mlalion took up aisma. 
Th^ took thetr cause into their own 
hasdat and tbay all knew what the 
eor^iit was« He diaayowed^ for him<r 
aei^ aa^ mipleaaant consequence that 
mi^ result from what was lecom* 
m^ed l^ bia right honouEable 
fieiend; for whatever hitnghlhanonr<* 
aUa friend meani (and he knew he 
aaaanft we&)«^wkatever fans right ho* 
neanabk iiiead intended (and he wa^ 
moi his nitaKlions weoe good), the 
ahotteai would, ha was snre, be oeoft- 
aidered the beat wny of aceoflnpliBhine 
hia ohiect^ both fay the master and 
davn ofttha oAaaaideof the Athntie^ 
Aitpieaent, however, the coune be 
pajnted onft was dilatory and ciiw 
qBtoU E^ a astaad of being prompt and 
ihDBeft. Itwaaaaidthattfaedanepera 
to wkaehho aUudad^ that te distin^ 
aneaaatwinf^hopointed^ were na^wr 
tohaapfirabanteU asctfitaaeonse- 
qoencea ol aui^ diseussioiia as tibe 
piwant. The foot w» entirely the 
otfaev way. Tbare never had bean 
ao ftw taaareolbna^. daring aneqoal 
as had broken out ainoe he 

hia fneadhbad «BUedte attan. 

of the bause to tiie sofa^ect. 



Xheae wesa dai^aipas 
in 176a» 17€6» 1767, 17a5i, and. •a* 
indeed be mig^ go-on, ^dnaostooai* 
tinuaUy, «ntil the subject waa a»- 
sk>ufily invest^ated. Besides those 
greater inauRections>there were mai^ 
olfaer^a loeal nature, arising frona 
discontent and dissatisfaolaon on paVi- 
ticular estates. Thai this bad. ao^ 
been the ease for many years past, 
was. a suffioient refutation' of the a»» 
serticm to which he had adverted* 
CcRild his fight hon. friend coooevte 
it possible i&X Aoee who had esp^^ 
rieace in those matters could hope 
that the legishdive assemblies in the 
other colonies would adopt the mo* 
del he placed before them, in piQ- 
porticm to the success ol theexpei^ 
ment ? If an experiment weremade 
at all, it should be tried under the 
meat favourable cifcuHtttanoea; and 
he would maintain diat hie ribbon, 
friend was about to inlaoduoe it under 
oireumatanees the moat tuiihviouniUft 
that could be imagined. For laa 
own part, foebng that it waa about 
to be tried under sneh unfovonnAde 
eiroumstanees, he, for bis friends and 
hamseK must decUne resling thair 
ewe on the issue. It was, he avened, 
by no means a fair trial of the es* 
periment. So for as Trinidad was 
eonoemed, ^lere wasono ooasideBa* 
tion: to whkh lua right ho nour ah te 
friend \md not adveotedw When ho 
spoke of alloariag the sbvo to purr 
^)ase his own fre^knn, orthatof hia 
cfaildnni, he did. not state that this 
was the Spanish law. That was,, 
howorer, thefocL Bothe (Mr. WM- 
heiforce) never heard thai this peiw 
mission was frequently acted ed, or 
tiwl it had been imitated fay o^er 
ooleniea; and thweforebeoMdaot 
expect so mueh from the «»ertniant 
M his right hon. friend (fid. Ifia 
right hon. friend hopedthaa hoahoold 
be aMa to iadnoe the other Britadi 
Colonies 



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FARLIAHEl^rrAIlY DEBATES. 



QQO 



Sttt kt bini look to the oonductof 
aO the (Boiloiiial an«mblle9 with tes- 
pcet to the abolition of the dave 
tilde, and then eonstder whether 
they were likely to foUow, of dieir 
own aeoord, any example for the 
aaa^NNration of slavery which might 
be reoooimended to thieni. The Imk 
gnage used fofftti^iyy wfaen' the abo«> 
ntion of the slave trade was under 
considevation, was as bold as thaft 
w4iieh was used at jpresent : but it 
had not the effect of paralyzing the 
efforts of parliament ; on the con« 
trary, the firmness of parliament pre- 
vailed, and the colonists were oblieed 
to submit to the abolition of ttiot 
haleftd ttaiBc. He did not, however, 
ca]l on the house to adopt any strong 
language ; bat he asked of them to 
take their measures prudently and 
temperately— in the tone and spirit 
of th6 resolutions of last year. He 
impkirad them not to be deterred 
fiom taking the just and virtuous 
coarse by the vain attempta that were 
made to excite their apprehensionsr^- 
hy paying attenticm to those various 
wtfnings, which were dealt out to 
them, he must say, in a most in»- 
seei% 'manner by the oolonial as- 
semblies. What was Mr* Burke^s 
ibeling with respect to the cdMiies ^ 
Vk never entertained a doubt refaitive 
to tiie rifi^ which parlkunent pes* 
sQBMd to interfere vmk their intcvnid 
pDMcy. lie staled what he oonoeifed 
oi^t to be adopted, and with a wia^ 
dcmi whieh he (Mr. Wilberfinroe) 
doabtedatthetime, fbrhewas^en 
yotrng and foolish, compared with 
wite he was tiow (much laoslitor), 
tM which he had sincelidh nAoaw- 
li%eijt*-^4faat great man shewed the 
neecssity of acting decismly and ex- 
plicitly, lie said? ** I much dis- 
tMt'the voKie'of any eeneial prior 
ctple without some mode by wfaid) 



it may be enfoned.'' Saeh 
Mr. Burice^ senlimenCi; and ytf 
liidfie who adopted th« in die p6- 
sent instance wiere viewed by the 
heuse ai< a set of entfacoiasts, who 
wished to aekanee to their end fraler 
than they ou|;httodo. Agam, wte 
was the opinion of Mr. Dmkdaa I He 
was another of tfaoae men who wonU 
not be deterred fiom his d9jeetb|f 
stdfk statements as vrere resorted 
to now, and he spoke out plamlyesi 
the subject Mr* Budie, in pro|«i»- 
sing certain regulations by whoeh he 
hoped to accmnidish his ftev wilii 
mpeet to the oolonies, saxi; <^ Sii^ 
I have seen all that has been done 
by the colonial assemblies, and it is 
arrant trifling, far want of an encaw 
tory principle." But they weie noiw 
expected to adopt a miUder tone, hi 
the hope that the cokxualaasemUica 
would pass some ameliorating lawa. 
This had been done before^ and 
those who framed the kwa had foiw 
gotten th«n. A chief prapnetor 
of Jamaica had abw passed, by which 
it wag propoaed tn give a rewaad af 
60^ to iisft surgeon of every cUnte 
en which only a certain number of 
slaves died dunng the year, and a ra^ 
waid of 91, to every errerseer vIid 
acoonq^ished a certain ^fsajotalBf of 
work without having reeouise to aav 
vecily. Theae lewaida wece 
posed to he ffiwn after poper 
^iiy ; and wmn one chief plaa 
was asked by the go«cnM»of thai 
day to stale the dsciease or iatoMaaB 
of ncsrocsoafaiaeslate, haaaawafed^ 
that mere wag nomode of SBfloitain 
ingdi0&0^ so that theiav waa a 
ni^ily* Tlio qokmiBl aa> 
of Jaaoaicahad, hehaliavedk 
to a law, and put dmaaalasB 
ti some sopense, in <iraer to pneaK 
religious instruction for the negfoaa. 
Butitwasin the fcnm of the marier, 
thatimeofdiealavehehighiaproperty, 

to 



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TABlAAMkmXKi DE^AifiS. 



to pireveiithimtTom. deriving any be-' 
iiefit from the regulation ;'aAq, in 
the. end, it was reported that the lav 
was entirely moperative« liin^ could 
pariiament expect, he would ask, 
trom the conduct of thbse who d^ 
approYed altogether of the means 
i^ch they adopted for the accom- 
pli8lune»t of Aeir purpose, as well 
alB of the end wb^ch they, had in 
▼iew ? If those |Mttties on^f disap- 
proy^ of the means, why, perhaps, 
fiiey might be brou^t over by tlie 
adoption of different means for the 
attainment of the same object Or, 
if they disapproved of the end alone, 
it was noi impossible to place it in 
auch a point of view as would lead 
them, without being aware of the 
feet, to sanction it But when they 
disapproved of both means and end, 
how could parliament hope that any 
project thus situated could have a 
successful issue ? On the contraiy, 
those parties would resist it to the 
utmost If they prevailed, they 
' would attribute their success to the 
strong ground they had taken, and 
matters would become worse than 
ever they were. They must not con- 
ceal from themselves what was the 
practical point at issue. It was sim- 
ply this — whether the slave system 
m>uld be put an end to by the im- 
perial legislature, or by the colonial 
assemblies. He contended that it 
was impossible this could be effected 
by the colonial assemblies : it must 
be done by the imperial parliament, 
or not done at alL (Hear, hear.) In 
coadnsion, the honourable meqiber 
called on the house, acting as it was 
Ibr the happiness of the community, 
to consider maturely the best mode 
of effecting the great object which 
was intrusted to theiz eare« (Hrar, 
hean) 

Jtfr.Bortn^ opposed farii^n|j in 

. tbebill,aiid accused ministers cld6- 

lay in statii^ their intentions, and 



kcfi&ping the mini' 1^ of plantere 
ana negroes in a state of nniceitaihty.' 

Mr. .Pee/ defended ministers* 

Dr. iMskmgtohf Mr. WaUanTag^ 
hr^ and two or three odiermemberay 
afterwards spoke. 

iifr.Cannino replied, that govern- 
ment intended to take a middle 
course between immediate emanci- 
pation and perpetual slavery. 

The question was then put, and 
leave ^ven to bring in the bill. 

Similar proceedings took place in 
the hoiise of lords, introduced by 
EarlBaihurgL 

March 18. — Lord John RusseU 
rose to bring forward the motion of 
which he had given notice, respect- 
ing the occupation of Spain by the 
French troops. He was of opinion 
that if Great Britain had, at the con- 
gress of Verona, assumed the tone 
which had been assumed hy the 
United States of America, or had 
spoken out as boldly with regard to 
Spain as they had done with regard 
to South America, that war wotdd 
never have taken place. But as we 
bad not done that, he admitted that 
afler the commencement of last ses- 
sion, it would have beea the heaght 
of imprudence to have entered into a 
war which might have involved us in 
a struggle with aU the great powers 
of the continent What he desired 
on the present occasion was, to hear 
from the ministers of the crown 
somft explanation as to what was the 
polic]^ of thia countiY, in order that 
we might not a^n rail into the un- 
fortunate situation in which we had 
been recently placed, when, after a 
peace concluded amidst universal 
congratulations, which had continued 
for several years — amidst applause 
from one side of the house, and si- 
lence on the other — ^there arose a 
quesdon whether this country 8lK)uld 
enter on a difficult war; and the 
only reason which was assigned 

for 



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PAl^M^lfCNXARY. p)q)AXE& 



SOS 



fqr our not d^uig jbo wa8» that 
it was nn^ijse' to enibro3 ou> 
selves with a powerful adverpaiy. 
He bad heand k objected to the ^lo- 
n^n which he proposed to submiti 
that it would be unwise to excite dis- 
cussion on .the subject of the policy 
of this country, in the present state 
of our relations with foreign powers. 
He woiild tell those who made that 
objection to look at the. situation of 
the cotUitTy. His majestVy in hs9 
speech at tne opening of the present 
session, had been ph^ised to say that 
he continued to receive bom the 
powers, his allL^, assurances of their 
tnendly disposition towards this 
oouiitry, and of their wish to main- 
tain and cultivate the relations of 
amity with his sovemment What 
was meant by the word allies ? It 
meant powers united together in one 
common principle, and directing 
their efforts to the attainment of one 
common object, But the principle 
on which the allied powers acted 
>^ hostile to the spirit of the British 
constitution; and the invasion of 
Spain was direcdy adverse to what 
had always been tne poUcy of Great 
Britain. From the time of Lpuis 
XIV. down to the time of Buona- 
,parte, it had always been the first 
wish of France to establbh an influ.- 
.ence in Spaing and it had, during 
the same period, been the constant 
.poKcy of this country to prevent 
France from effeqting that oWeqt 
From the tune of the battle of Blen- 
heim, down to the period when the 
battles of ATittoria, Saragossa, an^ 
Tarragona took place, England had 
been fiehting to j^revent France from 
establisnipg ner influence in Spsdn. 
It was no longer than ten years 
ago, that so9ie of the best blood 
of England was shed in the fields 
of Spain to prevent France, from 
acq)uring,an ascendancy there; and 
now Fr^idh troops were in ppsses- 



sion of the very Mds winch were 

fliained with Englisli blood, and &ey 
lined the batdements of Cadiz, Ba- 
dajoz, and St. Sebastian,^ which it 
had cost England s6 many lives to 
capture. (Hear, hear.) bufely no 
man who. thought at all upon the 
subject would say that this was not a 
state of things wnich onght to excite 
the attention of die Bntish parlia^ 
ment (Hear.) He would, upon the 
present occasion, endeavour to do 
three things: — ^First, to show how 
we had fallen into our present sito- 
atiou ; secondly, the danger which 
we incurred by being in uiat situa« 
tion ; and thirdly, £>w we were to 
extricate ourselves from it First, 
with respect to the maimer in whic|i 
this country had fallen into its prei- 
sent unfortunate situation. It was 
well known that ten years ago ou)r 
troops were fighting under a greift 
commandefr with the greatest p08si«- 
ble success, encouraged by the tu- 
multuous «ry of nations aiixious to 
recover their independence. The 
.exertions of England were crowned 
with success, and peace b^an ih 
1814, was interrupted in 1815, and 
iinally established in 1818. on prin- 
ciples entiurely new to the diplomacy 
of this country, as well as to the re- 
lations, of the world. What wtis the 
situation of F^gland at the pp&senc 
moment ? Instead of balancing one 
power a^nst another, she had made 
herself a party to a general combi- 
nation of all the great sovereigiis ^f 
the continent— insteafif of threaten- 
ing to chastise the insolence of pre* 
sumptuous kings, she tamely ^toOd 
by,, whilst they made a flagrant at- 
tack against t^e Jiberdes of tmof- 
fending ptates,-rinste^d of answ^t- 
in^ the prayers of ber aflfficted)[ieigT|- 
' Hours, stie had treated with scoraa^ 
contempt ^very .supplicati9n yifla^ 
had been offered to her. jHear.) ;|a 
1820, the allied .^oriaichs issued a 
declaration 



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PAJtUAMENTlRT DBBAlltS. 



'^nMoh WW pconomiMd 
byihe:kte oiiqais «f Londondeny 
to be conlbtDy to the fondamaitid 
kivs oiiAas xxmAry^ and whicb fafld 
sinoe been dedared by the preseot 
light faon. isecretaiy 'hr foreign 
aniis to contsdn principles wfaioh 
fltrnd: «tth» loot of the Britidi ban- 
idtetbiu in the fitst sentence of 
tittt dedaEBtion, tihe revdulM in 
Spiift^!poinledoiit;asone wfaioli 
it 'mA the duly of the aUsed soffe^ 
itignsto put down^ttid it ^was added 
that diey coly piooeeded i^anst 
tb* of Naples atthatperiod, beoMne 
kvmB Hoit convenient He merely 
ifcas ciicnnfitanoe, be^ 
Be a ^ear and a half ago^ mtM^ 
I bad dechoed diat ibey had no 
Da to uropoee that the afiaka of 
wonld foeoome a sdbject of 
I at tbeooa^^rest af Veromu 
Una shonved hoar liable minifiHen 
awfe to bedeceivad bftheirpaitiajity 
ftr their allies. Hiey steadily por- 
med their favourite abject^the en« 
ilaYemeat of maidcind, whilst tiie 
fluuBCeia of England, xvho i^otdd 
cppoR them, irere ai^ep on their 
poiM& fle begged to call tbe atten- 
tian aof the house to the profeoBioBs 
ubiak ware made by France Portly 
befove tiiein^^afiio& of Spctin--^ tht 
paaanies which were th^ gi^Miy and 
npinoh wate afteiwaids ao acanda- 
iMri^ violated. The apeech of «he 
long of Fvaaioe^ at the opening of 
«haidiambeta,contauQred the follow- 
ing pa«age \^» Let Fcvdmand VIL 
b%mt to give to his people 4niiti- 
todona, which they cannot hold but 
fham hhn, and which, hf ^securing 
their tranquifiity, woidd dmnate d^e 
jtttmqniatadesatf France. Hoa^H^ 
tin'riflyi cease fiom Ibat moment** 
The iolerpreftatiiai which waa pat 

3on tiatt paasage waa, Huft the kn^ 
^iRoioa did not desire that the ftee 
visdMMma which ^aain ^t^c^ed 
«hQPidd ba ^Ib^Mkei^ W only that 



they slamld «maBSMairani<tha Idngil 
If any doobt ootdd eidat on thA 
pointy it' would ba tcmoved by reifer* 
RBg to the note of Sir Charies Sttiatt 
ta Afr. Secretary Coming, dated Feb. 
10, of die laat year. Sir Chatiea 
Stuait had communicated with M0n<« 
sienr Chateaubriand, respecting the 
psBsage in the king of Rnmce^ 
speech, which he had just read to the 
muse, and the answer of ChuliaM>- 
hriand,a8 grv«n in the despatch, waa 
thB : He (M.CliaEteaabriand) and, 
diat ** whatever may be the intai^ 
pretation whii^ is attached to his 
aufesty's expresBiotts hy those adio 
are determii^ to consider all tb) 
aaeasores recommended by this (die 
French) court to be proofi of theif 
desire to r^^eatablish absokte 0^ 
i^mment in Spain, he never can be- 
lieve Ifaat the cocnnnmicalions which 
have taken {^ace with the Bridah 
cdbinet have been misunderstood to 
a degree which can astfborise mxAt 
suppositions.'* The aospicionB al« 
laded to were, that k was die wiah af 
TVance to see an abeolute govern^ 
mentre-estabhshedrnSpaon. It was 
unnecessaiy to state how shamefofiy 
ati these piotestadons had been dia- 
r^arded. He woidd here remind 
^e house that the promises wfcach 
Prince Pohgnac now made on the 
part of Fiance wilh ngaid to Scaith 
America might be as easily fatokm, 
as those which she had made widi 
respect h> Spain. The French eo- 
vemment never hesitated to ^eagp 
its word on ainr occasion, became it 
never scruff to violate it at any 
moment when it might be escpedienl ; 
aasd in <}oing ao the Frendi gpvemh 
meaft only fottowed the pmept t)f 
LomsXIV., that, «<treaftieB like «om- 
pliaaents, are to be intenaeted as 
aneaning a great deal less waiB eae- 
pressed; and the more ejcpio si tte 
wQidB of engagemaBts maf be, lite 
iBOre pityper it ia to yirint^ thctt.** 

(Hear, 



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PAMiAMSNTARy IttftiffiS. 



m 



(Unas ^aiA atengh.) Wlien FMnoir 
eik<tt«dSpaiiH itwas withprdfeukon* 
of ettabbillirGig ft<x>iitflfttiti(m kss de** 
ttkocmtkd tfa^ that wl»Gh then esL* 
isfeBd) hut^the «ame titiie (saknrittted 
to secure to the people of Spain the 
fipee ixttrtitiitioQS which they desired 
10 pooseaft* Tte Spanoukb founded 
a demodratical con^tution on tha 
pnaeiple that all power ou^ lo 
fummaie from the people; hut whilst 
tiiey did this, they exhibited the 
gteatestUndnesB to tho^e who wei« 
opposed to the new <»der of thki^ ; 
and 09 far was the Danish retoindOB 
ftotn being mairleed by those mauHH 
am which haddisdneuished ^hat of 
FroBoe, diat penons mo were loiown 
to be pbc^g the overthrow of the 
ooostitn^oa were iKAually oitffered 
to retiiaiti umnoleMed. WhKt w«a 
the ootttequetice of tins mtem of 
laildMOsafid conciliation ^ The€Ofr» 
sequence was» that at the time when 
the Freiiah entered Spain, there were 
tio pstres in itreaiit^ to join theat*^ 
one of ^lem donsiBtuig of the iiie&di 
^ a liberal but modeiate constitution, 
and die other of petaons who hiBd 
bWM fed by Ibe convents, or "bad 
robbed tyn die highwav^persottit 
irbo were host^e to the then existitte 
oonaktoi^n, because it had depriv«l 
tlMtti ^ their usual means of c 



by es&Alfihkig peace, justice, and m^ 
dui^, in place of the indoleBoe, 
riods^, and afianchy, on wfaick fheiy 
had formerly subsisted. Those who 
iDM^r the army of the fidtb knew 
Aat it eittirely consisted of inendi^' 
oanta and robbekB-^of drones isujp- 
ported by the indiscriminate diarity 
of the monks, and of ruffians sup^ 
Tfo/tved by depredation and pUlage. 
Having obtained the support of me 
fliends of & moddrafte con^tiitiott, 
and alao Ihat of the rabble, which 
had bean engendered m the filth of 
te.tM raonarcfay, the sucoess of the 



Flt«acb arti^piociedad wMiOttt b^ 
Mfupliota ; they iiiet widi Mttreekjf 
l0by<»t^KiBkion^ aiidwhei« oppo^ltida 
Was <i^red, it was rather tne -oppo^^ 
sition of iiadividuab^ than #« ^ppo^ 
sition Kff a party. There were, how^ 
ever, aome indmduals, who, during 
that shott and unfottunate stn^gle^ 
behaved in n manner worthy of "^h^ 
freedom Ibr Which they ottiftetidedt 
there waa the virtuiMn -and eloofaeit 
AigQellea^the «oiflpagooua and pa* 
trioticMma, (heai^,-Miie brave and 
heroic Alva {hear),--^tnen whoae 
ttierits wooAd never bo i^Atiotten,tBttEI 
the firo'of pa&iotism had ceaied to 
dew in me boeom of maakiaA 
%tot, howevar, had bem €ie resdt 
of success aftendartt <m ^e Freneh 
arms ? Had k estiftilisked in SpiAa 
afty thing which deserved ^e tmme 
ofecfDBStitution? HaditeatabliidiBdta 
Spftin any of dio^ 4iistilulMns which 
his peopte were lo Teceive Irom tio 
other hands t^fem those of Ferdmkidf 
Had it etebHshed even fhe l^mdi 
*charteiv or any other guaranty fer 
pehHc and pnvdfee Hberty? It waa 
wOKAious thift <it had effected «iO«e «f 
those objects. All it had yet effcseted 
was to show the people of Suain ^daa 
therr invaders had betrayedlhat party 
'amongst th^n which had joined 
^ttcta fiijttk mdtives of jelfrfinttvuM^ 
and had done worae thati bc^lMy 
those who had joined ihem in tlie 
hopes of receiving from theer hn& 
a froe constitution. It was wcfttiti 
wMle to consider how 6ie Aetttdi 
-army ha^ behaved in anodter teapot 
The prodamaiaem whidi the cMee 
d'Angouleme isbued on crosabe tlMB 
Bidassoa, contained among €ie bom^ 
bastic phraseology with whkh au^ 
documents were usually filled, 4te 
fbUowing dear and ezp&cit dedanm 
tioa: ** Spttiiards^Bvetythii^wiH 
be dotte Ibr yoa and with you. 'thb 
Fuettt^weftmi andwidkiEiot1oba» 

any 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



aaythii^ but your auxiliariak Your 
gtandaid alone shall float ov«r your 
citieB; we do not. pretend either to 
unpoee laws on you or to occupy 
your country; we widi nothing but 
your deliverance; as soon as we shall 
have obtained it, we will return to 
our own country » happy to have pre- 
aerved a generous people from the 
miseries jSoduced by revolution, and 
which experience has taij^ht us but 
too weU to appreciate/* Such were 
the professions which the French 
leader put forth upon entering the 
Spanish territory* He meant to say 
Dodiing against either the talent or 
ihe generosity vrith whidi the royal 
dvke had afterwards conducted him- 
/Mlf ; but he would say this — that for 
the sake of the independence of 
Spain, Uid indeed of every other 
couBtiy , it would have been ten times 
better that a duke of Alva should 
have been sent there, than an indi- 
vidual whose moderation could not 
.potect his promises fix>m violation 
oy others, and whose mild qualities 
only tended to rivet fiaster the de- 
grading fetters he had fastened upon 
Spain. Let the house look for a mo- 
ment at the situation of that unfor- 
tunate nation. In aU coimtries there 
were men whose talent and informa- 
tion qualified them for leading their 
compatriots in the various depart- 
ments of arts and literature, to wpich 
they had devoted their attention — 
men, whose intelligence placed them- 
selves above the age in which they 
lived, and rendered them the instruc- 
tors and bene&ctors of posterity — 
men, who were ** not of one age, 
but of all time," and who, in 3ie 
language of immortal song, ** sui tne- 
mareSf ulio f4oere merendo.^^ Of 
men whose genius and ability con- 
ferred honour on the generation to 
which they belonged. Spain was 
not, afew short montfasago, entirely 



destitute; but if they wished tonn- 
derstand the melancholy condition 
to which she was now reduced, they 
must view her as she now wasyshoro 
of all the ^ory which she derived 
from ^ir intelligence. All who 
were qualified to enliffhten the daik- 
ness in which she had been so long 
involved, aU who could warn her 
against the evils of popular licenti- 
ousness, and teach her the blessings 
of real liberty, all who were fitted to 
give soliditj to ha unsettled consti- 
tution, and to rally her children round 
the bomner of constitutional freedom, 
had been either swept away by the 
French invasion, or were now living 
in that state of insecurity to which 
despotism always consigned those 
vriiose enmitv it apprehended The 
condition of Spain ws», therefore, 
worse at present than it was before 
the establishment of the constitutional 
flwstem, because form^ly, men, if 
th^ could not speak as they thought, 
still could think as they pleased, and 
might, if they kept their opinions to 
themselves, peruse, in private, Vol- 
taire, and Montesquieu, and various 
other authors, whose works were 
now plac^ under the interdict of 
the inquisition. The case was now 
far di£ferent During the period of 
the constitution, all the men who 
dared to act and think for themselves, 
made themselves known to their 
countrymen; and the consequence 
was, that at the present moment 
they were universaUy persecuted by 
*the priests and the isnorant rabble 
which they kept in their nay. At 
Sarasossa upwards of 1,000 persons 
had been imprisoned almost for no 
other offence than that they were 
able to read and write. At other 
towns men had been massacred be- 
cause they were too enlightened to 
join in the schemes of an indoknft 
priesthood: and in one place sevenl 
individuals 



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209 



ii^ynJuals h^ iiad t|jeir J^y^ lojcn. 
oto^because fiiey.wislieq tp ^nfp^^ta , 
tHeir ftHoy-citizeos the ple^sing^W ; 
education aW freedpn^ . , * 

* tflhe^rencli possessed" the power. ^ 
of restraifUi^.such excesses in th^ir. 
aKes - excesses' whiph origiaated 
fron^ tBiei^ 9|jccessy a^d could not" 
havetateap%^,yir^^ 
have fonnaasomijpftljiation ifor their , 
criro c^ ^ggj^s^.; but, jh^y did 
not even posse??, X%tjfqwer,; excq>t ^ 
in the fortresses wnkh 1^ 
they could notj^ceyent their captives 
fron\ beicoJODUiig" * . rictjgcps : in the . 
towns, w^ere they V'sre not pre^nt, 
alt theJnends,.of liberal knowleilge ' 
were left unprotected, to ;the fury of 
a de^tic aristoQracy, animated by 
the vindictive spirit of iffnorance and 
supeEstition. Having thus examined 
the question in its rdatioi^ to the in- 
terests of Spain, he now came to ex- 
amiae it in its relation to the in- 
terests of. Great Britain. He had 
been told by some persons* that, it . 
was a matter of no consequence to . 
this country whether France retained 
or evacualeid Spain, as the holy al- 
liance had neither the inclination 
nor the power to continue such a ca- 
reer of miquitous aggression. What! 
after all the blood and treasure which 
we had expended to maintain the 
ba]anoe of power in Europe, could 
it be indifferent to us whether France 
was. or was not to command the re- 
sources of Spain ? Was it of little 
coowquence whedier in future wars 
we were to have to contend with 
France alone, or with France and 
Spain united a^;ainst us ? For the 
last 130 years U had been a leading 
point in our poli^ to detach Spain 
nom the anas of mnce^ and it was 
represented by our historians as one 
Of the i^ost infamous acts of the in-r 
&Httauai!eigpQfC3iaxlesU., that he 
had .dco ort< !4 his engagements with 

[1824. 



tl^e i^n^wrpqwff ,to.ob^. tb^ pe- ■, 
c^^iaiy^ isLVQi^ o^ jUuis KSy. , ft , 
was eviaei^yt thait the statesmen of 
France.d)^ oot jQopsifi^ it. the sane , 
n^er'of indifiEereAce that bur stat^ 
n^4id. TbeyforesaWythatif Spwk« 
were allowed to e^y a ftee c^oosti- 
tution,.sb( must, in. any fiitu^e war^ , 
fling her swprd ii^ the ^aiXk of Bog* . 
land, ia^d not into that of France; 
and therefore to obtain a safe froQtiec 
on the pidei^f Spain, they deeme4 i 
it necessary tp prush at Madrid the . 
rising spirit pf liberty, and to hring 
back its noble aspirations once more 
to the degrading quietude of Ic^- . 
mabyandsuperstition. With regard 
to tb!e will of^ the holy allies to attack 
this country, he would beg le^ve^ to 
say a few words, ft was evident 
from every measure that they took, 
that if there was one thing whiich 
they hated more than another, it was 
the freedom of discussion. The lord 
chancellor of England appeared to 
be peculiarly sensitive to any re- 
mark made upon his conduct ; but 
the lord chancellor, with all his 
sensitiveness, was not half so sensi- 
tive to them as were the members of 
the holy alliance, ft appeared to 
him like a moral retribution, |hat 
those who had the power of keepipg 
others in misery, should be them- 
selves particularlvirritable when even 
verbally attacked by others. If any 
proof were wanted that they were 
thus irritable, he would refer to their 
recent interference with the internal 
government of Switzerland* 

At the peace of Paris, and indeed 
eveiy year sincea that country had ; 
received from the members of, the 
holv; alliance strong assurances of , 
their, profound res{>ect and reiterated 
protestations of their desire to main- . 
tain with it all the relations of peace 
andamity; and yet in that very coun- 
try, which for so manycentunes had 
o afforded 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



afforded an inviolable afijyima to all 
, the victims of Teligious and political 
persecution, had &ey been guilty of 
an acdoQ> which, up to the present 
time, was imprecedented in the pub- 
lic lustoiy ot Europe — ^he meant the 
compelling an ind^ndent state to 
expel from her territory persons re- 
Bimng in it under the protection of 
regular passports. In former timesy 
it nad been customary for indepen- 
dent states, in consequence <of pEiiti- 
CBibr conventions made with each 
other, to deliver up individuals 
charged with certain criminal of- 
fences; but in dM3 instance to which 
he referred, the parties who vi^e 
fenced fiom Switeerland were cfaax]^ 
VBth no. crime but that of having 
quitted their own country with the 
leave of th«r own goveminent, be- 
cause th^ entertained political opi- 
nions different from those of the per- 
sons in power in it. Such an out- 
rage, it ought to be recollected, had 
taken place in that country, in which 
a ^stinguished author said, only 50 
years ago, that every man was^t li- 
berty to criticise kings, without fear 
and without flattery. That liberty, 
however, no man could at present 
venture to take there. The holy 
adiianoe had declared it to be con- 
trary to their sovereign will and 
pleasure, and the fi-eedom of discus 
sion was therefore, with the inhabi- 
tants of Switzerland, entirely at an 
end. If they could act in a manner 
so iniquitous and oppressive towards 
Switzerland, had we any reason to 
think that they would not act in a si- 
milar manner towards us, if they had 
similar power? Certainly not. Eveiy 
thing they had done, every thing 
they had ledlt undone, convinced him, 
that if they had the power, they 
would not want the will to put down 
the free discussion which was at once 
the pride and support of the British 



nation. The liouse knew that die 
trifling share of discussion which was 
admitted into the newspapers of 
Switzerland,and which had so galled 
the withers of this confederation of 
despots, did not cany with it to the 
world half that weight of censure 
which was contained in the un^ 
shackled productions of our own 
countiy. The members of the holy 
alliance were also acquainted wim 
that feet, and being so, could not 
but feel a much mater animosity to 
the free ipreas of England, than th^ 
did to the comparative^ feeble pKfls 
of Switzerland. They hated, too, 
the discussions of our free paiU»» 
ment, md feared, not only the 
speedies made from his (the opposi- 
tion) side of the house, but also those 
made from the ministerial bendiea. 
The hon. member for Yorkshire, and 
the right hon. secretaiv himself, vrere 
deemed, and absolutely described by 
them as advocates of revolution, 
scarcely less open and less dangtt- 
ous than his honourable friend the 
member for Westminster, or any 
other gendanan who ranked himself 
among the enemies of despotism. . 

He would give the house an ifr* 
stance of the manner in which they 
sometimes condescended to critidM 
the productions which emanated fitmi 
the press of Eng^d. In oneof the 
papers which were laid upon the 
table in the course of last year, it wtt 
said— -either by M. Montmorency or 
by M. Chateaubriffidd, he forgot eZ'- 
actly which — ^that it must be evident 
to all impartial observers, that Spain 
had attacked France through the me- 
dium of the English newspapers, if 
this were so, and if it were thought a 
sufficient reason ibr making wanr 
upon Spain, mi^t it not be also 
thought a sufficient reason fer making 
war uDon England, which had al- 
lowed herself to be made die instru- 
ment 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



211 



aeol of attack ? He might be told 
that Fzancey which was eocouraged 
to attack Spain by a knowledge of 
the weakness of her adversaiy, would 
be reluctant to attack England, from 
a knowledge of her strength. But, 
in repty to such an argument, he 
would merely say, that as long as 
Ireland seraamed in its present dis^ 
tracked state, so longwoiud England 
not be invidneiabl^ Whilst theie 
were no elements out of which to 
fcrm a cadlnnet resolved to do justice 
to the catholic population of Irekmd, 
there would be no dements out of 
which to tarn a permiuient ^fstem 
<»f national security. CcHisidering 
tbe irritated state of public feeling in 
Ireland, and the hopes of its inhabi- 
tants often excited only to be as often 
disappointed, he looked upon it to 
be morally impossible that the peo- 
ple of that country should Jisten 
mneh longer with patience to the ar- 
gnments of the ri^ hon. secretary, 
or connder a cabinet to be actuated 
by friendly views to them, when one 
half of its members was for granting 
dieir claims as just, and me other 
half for rejecting them as extrava- 
gant, and when they only united to 
excite debates which they could not 
settle, and to raise hopes which they 
fiodd not sattisfy. 

Let it not be supposed that in 
making these obsemtions he was 
dfldosing our weak point to our 
enemies. The ordinary organs of 
intelligence to France were always 
showing to their readers the point m 
which we were most vulnerable. 
iSffrtlcanen who were in the habit of 
spending their leisure time in their 
fespective coimties might think that 
all the world was engaged in ad- 
mirine the strength, and greatness, 
and ^oiy of England ; whereas any 
man, who bad been ever so short a 
time upon the continent, could not 



fail to observe^ that for -oiie roason 
or another, all the nati(xi8 of it were 
anxious to aim a dart at our side, and 
to indict on us a severe and deadly 
wound. Anxious they all were for 
that object, but none of them so 
anxious as that blind and infatuated 
party, which is now uppermost in 
France, and is endeavourm^, with a 
zeal that he trusted would defeat its 
object, ta restore the okl daspcjtiBm. 
to that gUant ukA h^h-minded na- 
tion. There was nottiing which it 
aouehtwith so much eamestneai*-* 
nothing which k longed 00 afdeoAf 



to consummate, 
of die Britidli oonstitutkyn, the existi- 
ence of which it conskleied to be 
inimical to its own objects, and fatal 
to its own supremacy. I^ then, 
such a feeling existed against us upon 
the continent, and if t^ feeling was 
cherished and assisted by the allied 
sovereigns, it remained for the houae 
to consider how th^ should oppoee 
that formidable confederation. The 
first and most natural means of op- 
posing it was by breaking it. Tnat 
measure, however, he conceived p9 
be impossible. The cabinet of Aus^ 
tria, which had formerlv feaied 
PruBsia, and then Napoleon oi 
France, now feared the power of 
Russia. That power, aware of the 
vacillating poli^ of the Austrian ca^ 
binet, wool of the feeble grasp by 
which it held' a part of its dominions, 
kept perpetually remindii^ it, that if 
it did not put down military insm^ 
rections abroad, it might soon have 
to check them in its own dominions. 
The hint was not lost upon Austria: 
she felt herself pledged by her in- 
terest to stand by the holy alliance, 
and she has in consequence become 
one of the most cruel and bigotted of 
its members. Prussia stood in a si- 
tuation not much dissimilar from that 
of Austria; and if the house turned 

its 



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eyes to France, it would see that the 
Frendi party which was now seeking 
to establish an aristociacy as a part 
of that monarchy, felt that their in- 
terests were difl'erent from those of 
the 4iation at large-^that foreign aid 
was therefore necessary to their sup- 
port, and that of all other powers 
Ritesia was the most ready smd the 
most able to afford it Any body 
who, attended but slightly to French 
afiaurs, could not faSl to remark that 
the emperor of Russia gave and re- 
fused orders and decorations to the 
ministers of the king of France, just 
as they obeyed or r^isted his be* 
bests ; and that the policy of liis ca- 
binet was that at the present moment 
most in faerour at the palace of the 
Thuilleiies. As, then, the interest 
of the allies urged them to act in 
conceit with each other, he looked 
upon it as next to impossible to 
break asunder their confederation; 
and as a million and a half of men 
were ready to obey their commands, 
it became the house to consider well 
what means of defence they could 
oppose, if necessary, to this almost 
overwhelming force. What, then, 
was the defence of Great Britain ? 
Every animal had some means of 
defence afforded to it by nature ; 
and so too had Great Britain. Her 
natural defence consisted in her 
navy. * Let them, therefore, see how 
that defence now stood. It was dear 
that the members of the holy alli- 
ance inteiuled to extend their system, 
if possible, to South Amei^pa. They 
made professions to this country that 
they had no such intentions; but 
that drcumstance made no difference 
in his opinion, as he recollected that 
they had made similar professions 
with r^^ to Spain. He was per- 
suaded, from the best intelligence 
that he had been able to collect, that 
they did entertain intentions inimical 



to the independence of South Ame- 
rica. They would not, indeed, send 
an armed force into that part of the 
world to execute their orders, as they 
had done in the case of Spain, for 
there could be no chance of success 
from ity when opposed by the united 
navies of England and North Ame- 
rica; but they would send agents 
and missions to raise up contending 
interests — to promote discord and d- 
vil war — to set town against town, 
and brother against brother, and to 
undo all that had been done in fe- 
your of freedom and dvilization, in 
the hope that the parties, afier they 
had been worn out by a long series 
of civil commotions, might at last 
make application to them to betaken 
under the protection of monarchial 
government. If they should not be 
able to reduce them to such a low 
condition as to ask for a prince from 
their hands, they would still endea- 
vour to reduce them to such a degree 
of misery, as would be a warning to 
all other states not to imitate £eir 
baneful example. 

The best way of resisting measures 
so diabolical would be, by informing 
the members of the hoty alliance^ 
and the French government in par- 
ticular, that any attempt to conquer 
South America by Spanish Ibices, 
whilst the French army was in Spain, 
would be considered as an attempt 
to coiKjuer them by France for the 
holy alliance. The French army 
was now doin^ the duty of an armed 
police in Spain, and whilst it v?as 
performing that duty, it set free a 
number of Spanish soldiers to its 
own amount Even upon the prin* 
ciple of the right hon. secretary him- 
sdf, as stated in the papers now upon 
the table, we were bound to be neu- 
tral only so long as Spain attacked 
her colonies — not when she was as- 
sisted in her attack by a third par^. 

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Now if Spain were free, he would ad- 
mit that she would have a right to em- 
t>k>y a third paity to fight her hat- 
ties ; the king of England had done 
so when he employed Hessians to 
iight against his North American 
subjects; but as Spain was not at 
present sui jurisy he held that she 
had no right to employ on such a 
task those troops which had been 
subduing her fortresses for the holy 
alliance. He wished that ministers 
would CO a step further than they 
had hitherto gone, and would say 
that no Spanish troops shall be al- 
lowed to land in South America, un- 
til the French army shall have eva- 
cuated Spain ; but that as soon as 
Spain shall he free, they shall be at 
liberty to go in any numbers. He 
recommended this policy to his Ma- 
jes^'s government, because he did 
not wish the holy alliance to deceive 
us again in the same easy manner 
that they had deceived us before. 
He would now take the opportunity 
of saying a word or two on the pa- 
pers which had been laid on the 
table. With one or two exceptions, 
he thought tliat it would hardly be 
possible to give better answers to the 
questions of the French government 
than those which had been given by 
the right hon. secretary. Though 
such was the opinion h6 entertained 
of them, he could not help observing 
that, when tliey were stripped of 
their ornament, all they amounted to 
was this : — " You have cheated us 
so often when we have met you, that 
we cannot consent to meet you 
again. You have falsified your word 
to us so repeatedly, that we are at 
last obliged to tell you that we think 
your faith is not to be depended on.*' 
If that were really the belief of the 
right, hon. gendeman, then he called 
upon the parliament and the govern- 
ment to go one step further, and as 



diey had no trust in the professions 
of the holy alliance, to show all 
possible jealousy of their future pro- 



He knew that there were some 
gentlemen so particularly sensitvve 
when the term war was mentioned, 
as to be afraid of showing any jea- 
lousy or ill-will that was calculafed 
to. lead to it; but he thoudit the 
members of this imholy confederation 
were at present so distressed by their 
past struggles, and so busy in repair^ 
mg their shattered finances by Bri- 
tish gold, that for three or four yean 
to come they would not be anxious 
to go to war with Great Britain. If 
we waited for those three or fo^ 
years, and allowed them in the mean 
time to pursue their schemes without 
interruption, he should not be sur- 
prised if, at the dkid of that period^ 
they should have the audacity to o& 
fer to our consideration propositions 
as degrading and humiliating as they 
had recently offered to the conside- 
ration of Spain. (Hear.) If they 
did, he trusted that the ancient spint 
of this country would reject them 
with the scorn they merited; and, 
under the protection of the God of 
battles, boldly dare the struggle with 
them sdl. (Hear.) In the remarks 
which he haid that evening offered to 
the house, he had the satisfaction to 
know that the cause which he had 
been pleading was not a private but 
a general cause — ^was not the mere 
cause of the independence'of £iig<- 
land, but the cause of the indepen- 
dence of Spain, of Europe, of the 
world — was not the mere cause of 
this or that political theory, but the 
glorious cause of humanity, of civi- 
lization, of science, of freedom, of 
every thing which, dignified and 
adorned our common nature. (Hear.) 
The present contest upon the conti- 
nent was, on the pwt of the holy 
alliance^ 



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aDkaioe» to subdue in man aU that 
oonneded him with a superior state 
of beii^9 and to degrade him to a 
level witii the brute creation. Such 
was the policy that these conspira- 
tors i^nst the moral d^ty of 
human nature followed and avowed. 
Eveiy success that we gained over it 
was not only calculated to support 
the interert of Great Britain, but to 
establish the independence of the 
world and the glorv of mankind, and 
Insecure to ourselves the blessii^ 
of the latest posterity of every nation 
under heaven. The noble lord then 
concluded by moving, '* That an hum- 
ble address be {nresented to his 
Sftjesty, praying that he wiU be 
graciouBly pleased to give directions 
ttat there oe laid upon the table of 
that house cojnes of any communi- 
cations which he may luLve received 
fiom foreign powers respecting the 
evacuation of Spain ny French 
troops." (Hear.) 

iStr. IL Wilim considered the 
|yMent motion to be one of great 
importance, not only as it affected 
file policy of this country, but also 
as it affected the destiny of several 
mSlions of Spaniards and Portu- 
guese, vThich to a certain extent was 
mcluded in it He should therefore 
preserve the same tone with the no- 
ble lord who had just sat down, as he 
was anxious to elicit the promulga- 
tion of those opinions from die right 
honourable secretary, which would 
not only be serviceiike4o the cause 
of Spain, but also to the caiude of 
hunumity. 

He had heanl diat the gofemment 
of S|itin had i^ireed, un& our me* 
diaftion, to seul an ambassador to 
iBeet thedeputies of the South Ameri- 
tei States in London. Nowif Spain, 
whilst iAs» remained in the occupa- 
tion 4>f France, were to derive by 
treaty any commercial advantages 



fiom her foimer provinces ia return 
for reomiizin? tneir independence* 
he dioukl hold such medimm to be 
most unworthy of the British govern-' 
ment, and such a grant of commei^ 
cial advantages to be most disrepu- 
table to the Soudi American pro.- 
vinces. The grant of those com- 
mercial advantages would be a sub- 
sidy to Spain, would aflford her the 
means of paying her French auxi- 
liary army, and would so pos^pmie 
the day when it must evacuate Spain 
from want of resources for its sup- 
port. If, however, the condition of 
the negotiation to which he alluded 
were, that the French idiould im- 
mediately evacuate that country, then 
the negotiation would be honourable 
to En^and, and also to the South 
Amencan states, whom it was intend^ 
ed to benefit. It would likewise 
leave the Spaniard to himself, and 
would place him in a situation which 
would enable him eilher to obtain 
liberty if he deserved it, or to per- 
petuate on himself and his posterity 
that i^tem which, at the same time 
that it was a misfortune to Spain, 
was also a scandal to Euiope. If 
such an alternative were placed be- 
fore the Spaniard, he for one tiboM 
not be apprehensive of the resdt 
He thought that we were bomid to 
place him in a situation to take ad- 
vantage of tlrataitemative, not odLy 
by the duty which we owed to Spain, 
but also by that which we owed to 
oursdves. We should never be afaie 
to recover our proper situation in the 
qresof Europe^ it we did not take 
some measures to rescue Spain fion 
ihegianpof the hG^alHaaoe. He 
bdieved that the British government 
had wished that she m^ never ftll 
into it; but still, thoi^ sudi waa 
his betief, he thought that thdr oon- 
-duct at Venma, and for some time 
subsequendy, had tended materially 

to 



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fo pfodiio* thai uofoctunate result. 
He did Qot blame the government 
for not going to war oa behalf of 
Spam ; mit & did bhme it for not 
punning aline of policy which would 
have been equally effectual with war» 
in pieventing tl^ evib which had 
since taken place. The line of po- 
bcy which it ought to have adopted 
was this — it oumty as soon as the 
congress met at Y eiona, to have d^ 
nounced the principles of the.irn^ 
pending war, and to have reserved to- 
Uself the power of pursuing whatever 
oowse its interest and its duty might 
require. That course, he conceived, 
would have been effectual, and why? 
Because the holy alliance knew, that 
as soon as En^and i^uld come for- 
ward as the champion of Europe, 
there would scarcely be a man be- 
tween the Niemen and the Atlantic 
who would not hasten to rapge him- 
self under her standard. The king 
of Fiance would never have dared to 
itir a step after such a declaration 
ficom this government ; for he who 
had adcnowled^ed that he owed his 
crown to the friendship of the prince 
rege&t of En^and, well knew that 
he could not wear it long without 
our suppovL Instead, however, of 

which he had recommended, the 
governmei^ gave to France a pro- 
mise of neutrality during the conflict 
irittch was then g<Mng to commence. 
The result of that promise was to re- 
kaae her from all anxiety on our 
acGOunty and to enable her to block- 
ade all the harbours and seap(»ts 
of Spain» by combining her naval 
with her military operations. As 
Booa as the wool neutrality was heaid 
mesom the Pyrenees, the anny of the 
iuth .received a fre^ addition to its 
SBMB of fl^gamuffins ; the treason of 
il^isbal* Ballasteros, andMorillowas 
the Inke^waj;^ friends of 



the constitution were reduced to dea* 
pair ; the csedit of the goveinunent 
was destn^ed, and being thus inca* 
pacitated from paying itsempiby^and , 
victualling its foirtrcaBes, it was de* 
livered into the enemy^s power, al- 
most with as little dimculty as if it 
had been bound both hand and foot« 
He knew that it would be said that the- 
result of the war would not have been 
different, even if England had joined 
as a par^ in the war, seeing that the 
constitutional party was only a fro 
tion \diich accident had placed at 
the head of a£^rs. He, however,, 
would always contend that it was na 
faction. The body who were dius 
designated comprised all that was en> 
lightened, excellent, and amiable, in 
t& kingdom of Spain. Itfwas conv- 
posed of individuals who proved, 
that if they were not the best states- 
men in the world, they had hearts 
which qualified them to preside over 
any government on earth. They 
were especially entitled to the sup- 
port of this country, because they 
were the friends of civil and religious 
liberty. (Hear.) It mig^t be said, 
in answer to this, that the constitu- 
tional party stipulated for a particu- 
ku* national religion.. He, however, 
would maintain, notwithstanding dnt 
article, and there was not a man who 
assisted in drawing up the national 
code, who did not feel that there 
could be no civil liber^ where reli- 
gious liberty was denied. He was 
most certain, that if their views had 
been successful, the principles of 
religious liberty would have been 
adopted to its utmost extent. The 
church of France were so well aware 
of this fret, that the war became ra- 
ther a religious crusade than a politi- 
cal contest. The church of France 
felt that the church of Spain was in 
danger^ and to keen up that theo- 
cracy in Spain Wnich was now 
established 



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PARUAMENTARY DEBATES. 



established there, the emperor of 
Austria was wiUing to lend his as- 
nstance. Even the emperor of Rus- 
cda agreed to Ihe invasion of Spain, 
1^ France, foK the purpose of per- 
petuating, as fiaur as possible, the old 
religious system of that counbry ; for 
he viewed the roman catholic reli- 
gion as the best calculated for the 
purposes of a despotic monarch — as 
Uiat which would enable. him most 
securely to shackle the minds as well 
as the persons of a generous people. 
But how could the constitutional 
party be described as a faction, when 
such was the complete success of 
their views, that the king himself, 
not wrought on by menace, but in- 
fluenced by public opinion, took the 
oath prescribed by the constitution? 
This was a clear proof that they 
were not a flEUStion. But there was 
another, and if possible, a stronger 
one — ^it took a period of eight months 
•—it took a French army of one hun- 
dred and twenty thousand men, and, 
above all, it took ten millions of 
French gold to make the people give 

Xthe constitution, and, with it, 
t ought to be dearer to them 
than life, their liberty. (Hear.) This 
showed that the constitutional part^ 
was not a faction — it showed tnat it 
was a great power, a great commu- 
nity, woich deserved protection ; and 
which, in its turn, would have had 
the means of affording aid to any 
country, which, acting in support of 
the interests of humanity, haa bold- 
ly interfered in its favour. They 
saw the king of Spain on his throne 
—they saw the old system revived ; 
and yet, such was the dread enter- 
tained of the power of the constitu- 
tional party,— of that party which 
was described as a faction^ — that the 
French army was still retained in 
eveiy quarter of the Peninsula. He 
would not say that the defence made 



by the Spaniards had been of such 
a nature as to obtain all the admivBr 
tion which their former conduct had 
deserved, or to satisfy all the hopea 
that had been entertained of their 
success. 

Still, however, it was of import* 
ance not to suffer the Spanish cha- 
racter to be depreciatedf — it was of 
importance not to allow that gallant 
people to be looked op as quite un-' 
worthy of those abstract principles 
of freedom which were so., dear to 
every English heart. He would say, 
that though the defence of Spain was 
not the ablest and best that miriit 
have been made, yet, considerii^uie 
threat of the holy alliance— consi- 
deriiis the poverty of the nation— 
considmng also our breach of neu- 
trality, he knew of no other people 
who could have resisted so manfully 
as the people of S^n had done. 
The Spaniards were not a people in 
a state of anarchy at the time when 
the country was invaded : they were 
livii^ under a regular government; 
and he defied any man to point out 
any action that savoured of anarchy 
until the French army appeared in 
their country. 

The first constitutional govern- 
ment thought all the danger was 
over, because the kine of Spain had 
taken the prescribed oath. Th^ 
did not call to mind the various 
enemies whom their conduct had 
raised up against them: they had 
made war on the nobility by taking 
away their privil^s — th^ had 
made war on the clergy, by depriv- 
ing them of half their revenues— 
they had made war on the very army 
which had given them their liberty, 
l^ disbanding it. This last act tiiey 
did, to prevent the French, if pos- 
sible, from interfering with them; 
and also, because they felt die full 
force of the theoretical opinion, that 

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PABUABfENTARY DiBBATES. 



217 



a i#Mwfeig army must be fetail to 
fiberty. He could not do better to 
show the feelings of the oonstitiitionftl 
paitVy than to pobt the attention of 
ttie house to the state of the Spanish 
mind at the moment of the sunender 
of Cadiz. The people vrere not le- 

rnsible for what their government 
; and die oonstitutioiud party at 
that time remained, with their ho- 
nour unsullied, quite prepared for re-^ 
astance, and worthy to receive any 
protection which this country mi^t 
oe inclined to give. They all knew 
that Cadiz communicated with the 
continent by a long neck of land, 
which required a considerable force 
to defend it. The place itself was 
twenty-five miles in circumference, 
amd required at least twentyjfive 
thousand men for its defence. What, 
he asked, was the real force of Cadiz, 
after the capture of the Trocadero 
(where one thousand five hundred 
men were slaughtered), while the 
French fleet commanded the entire 
coast ? The whole force amount- 
ed to nine thousand seven hundred 
men. Not a chevaux-de-frize — not 
a peJisade was erected : there were 
no stores in the magazines— no pro- 
visions could be ootsuned. It was 
true there were plenty of provisions 
in the town; but it was directed that 
those provisions should not be taken, 
because if they were made use of, 
it was feared that 'the inhabitants 
would have evinced a hostile spirit. 
(Hear.) In the treasury, on the day 
the city surrendered, there were only 
fifteai dollars to pay the army ; and 
on the batteries there were but five 
meces of brass cannon fit for service. 
Tbese were proofe which could not 
be shaken, and the Spaniards^ during 
the siege, were not unmindful of the 
powers and glory of their ancestors. 
While tbs bomlwrdment was 'going 
on, men, women, and children, 



mig^ be seen animating each other 
to resistance. There was a forlorn 
hope, consisting in part of men of 
high consideration, who, at that cri- 
ti<»l period, were quite prepared to 
sacrifice their lives for the gocd of their 
fellow countiymen. A Spaniani was 
capable of the most heroic exertion, of 
the noblest effort, when once his mind 
was roused and excited in a just and 
lK>nourable cause. He was bound 
to defend the government of Spain, 
not against any positive charge, but 
against certain remarks which were 
iibdulged in on a former occasion, 
when some allusion was made to the 
deposition of the king of S{iain. He 
knew, that to depose a king for a 
few days looked like a folly ; it ap- 
peared to be an act of insanity ; and 
yet he wouM venture to say , that that 
very act, so much condemned, and 
treated in so sarcastic a manner, was 
the salvation of the king of Spain 
and of the royal family. It was only 
under an act of the constitution that 
the king could, W possibility, have 
been broi^ht to Cfadiz. He was de- 
termined to erect a despotism7-*he 
was determined to persecute every 
man who thought liberally, and more 
especially those who were at the 
head of the new government This 
was well known ; and such was the 
general feeling against him, that ^ 
he had fallen into the hands of any 
body of Spanish troops, it wouU 
have been impossible to have pre- 
vented them from executii^ a san^ 
guinary act of vengeance. It ww 
.for his preservation, and for that pui^ 
jXMe only, that a temporary deposi- 
tion was resorted to. Those who 
advised it well knew that the people 
would cheerfully obey any act whidi 
the .constitutional authorities suio* 
tioned ; and in consequence of their 
.policy, the king was suffered to 
proceed on his journey unmolested. 

The 



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The reward of tfaoee "wbo had tkns 
CMHred his safety was an mneknt* 
ing piosGription directed against 
IdBma. and all their oonnexions. 

The delay in the evacuation of 
l^nin by France was ooeasioned, it 
was said, by the neoessity of pre- 
serving tranquillity in that countiy. 
But how could he place any confi- 
dence in the promises of France, 
when he recollected that the duke 
d'Angouleme himself reiused the 
proffered mediation of England. That 
proffer was made in tl^ plainest 
manner during the si^ of Cadis; 
and the answer was, that Fiance 
would not allow the interference of 
any power, much less that of En- 
glana, she being determined to efface 
ev«ry shadow of the constitution* 
What in o&er respects was the con- 
duct of the duke d'Angouleme? Did 
he not, in violation of all honour— » 
in opposition of every feeling of cle- 
mency — surrender to his most im- 
placable eneiiues the brave, die pa- 
triotic, the Tittuous, but, he srieved 
to say, the nnfoitunate Kiego? 
(Hear.) He did so— although he 
must bEive known, that to his exer- 
tions, he (sir. R. Wilson) might say, 
to that gallant individual's personal 
courage, the king owed his life. 
Hffear, hear.) But posterity would 
do him justice. His name would 
Kve in the annals of histoiy, ^lo- 
riousty assodafeed with those patriots 
who had died in the cause of liberty 
—while the names of the duke d* An- 
paouleme and of the murderers of the 
gallant Spaniard woidd descend to 
posterity, accompanied with loathing 
and €zeerBlion. (Hear, hear.) 

it was said that Riego had been 
cuihy of cruelty. He denied the as- 
set lion i and he demed it on this 
fionnd — that if sodi a ftct could 
have been adduced, if such a fact 
Ind existod, the regency of Spain 



woiikl have mteodnoed thai &ct ioto 
theindktmentiigainstBiego. (Hear*) 
lie therefore would maintain* that 
the executbn of Ri^ was a foul 
murder. (Hear, hear.) He hoped 
diat this country would yet take that 
station which, £Knn her political, 
commercial, and moral eneigies, she 
had a risht to assume. He did not 
call on ue countiy to go to war ; but 
this he wonki say, that she ought to 
oppose the confederacy which bad 
been set on foot against the liberty, 
not merely of Spain, but of all Eu- 
rope. The house and the countiy 
must look with horror and detestatioib 
towards the combina^n of sove- 
reigns who were united solely for the 
purpose of pKeventing the extension 
of liberal principle^whose great 
object was, to r^ard the iiaprove- 
menty the civilization, the happiness, 
of the human race. (Hear.) 

Mr, Littieton said, as it must luwe 
been painful to the gallant officer to 
state his own personal drcumstan- 
ces to the house, he seized the first 
moment to assure him, that no 
ehai^ which had been effected* 
eitiier by the caprice of oiheis, or 
iiom any error of his own* eoukl 
induce him (Dfr* Litdettm) t» view 
the gallant officer in any other li^t 
than as the br^fabest modem esam* 
pie of chivaliic cours^ and gencRK 
sity. (Hear, hear.) With respect to 
that part of the sallant officer's 
speech whidi related to his coodoct 
in Spain, he must say, Aat no nan 
had a grettber right to dsplone the 
degraded situation of that oonotejr*. 
who had himself ooDtEibutad so mutt 
to its riety. He wouM not foUow 
the nook lotdthrov^ thekng his- 
torical ezcarsion whidi he had taken ; 
but he miBt in the outMt say, in 
JQstioe to Umaelf, diat he did not 
oppose the aoUe lord's motkA be- 
cawe be wai dissatisfied with bis 

. ideas 



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kfaa of ccMrtitational inde p endeD c e, 
or because he did not de|ireeate die 
ocmdiictof a great miUlaiy stale in 
endeavouring to eilend its boondaiy 
contrary to the dictates of national 
feith, and of international law. He 
lejoioed exceedin|ly when he saw 
the government of his oonntry dis- 
posed to lenst the 8elf-«tvled holy 
alliance in any scheme which they 
mi^t have entertained of aegian- 
disaaent. PubHc opinion haobeen 
ailisted against the conduct of France 
in the invasion of Spain, and he be- 
lieved that act would not lessen the 
dangers which France, by taking up 
arms, supposed she could effectuedfy 
turn aside; but while this govern-. 
ment acted properly in declaring that 
diey ymM not allow the rigms of 
nations to be invaded with impunity, 
he thouriit their conduct was wise 
and prudent in keeping out of war, if 
diey could do so with honour. In 
oonformitv with . diat sentiment, he 
conceivea the house was rigbt in re- 
jecting a motion made last year by 
the honourable member for Calne 
(Mn Maodonakl). If at that time 
they retoed to sanction an address of 
the nature then proposed, he thought 
that the same coiuideration woukl 
now suggest the continuance of the 
same prudent system. When they 
refiised their interference Jast year, 
it was because they felt the necessity 
of the lemporafy occupation of Spain 
l^ Prance— the same neoessily, he 
bdieved, still existed, and therefore 
he tbon^ th^ ou^ not to agree 
to a motioii mich would i^ace this 
eountiy in a very difiicult situation ; 
besides, if tU^ govemmeiit were in 
a dictatorial manner to state what 
diey tboucht the conduct of Fiance 
ooAa to be^ it mig^ wound the 
pnde and cygnity of that poaier, and 
lead to dtcumstanoes of an unplesp- 
antMtitteb Asto the^pinion which 



das govempient h^of tbe ocoopa- 
tion of Spain, it was clearly and un- 
equivocally Isod down in the despatch 
of sir Charles Stuart, of the 31st of 
March, 1823. The honourable gen^* 
demen proceeded to quote ikoiB Mr* 
Canning's despatch to sir Charles 
Stuart, of the 3l8t March last, the 
conditions of the neutrality to be 
observed by tins t^untry in the war 
between Spain and France; andcon- 
lended, that as for as could be judged 
fiom vphat had already transpired, 
those conditions France meant rigid- 
ly to observe. The fiist provision 
had been abided by— «that Portugal 
should remain untouched. Upon mt 
second, relative to South America, 
such assurances as the house had 
deemed satisfactory were alrea^ 
upon its table ; and he would aw 
them, what peculiar circumstances 
there were about the mode in whidi 
Spain was occupied by the French 
army, which should leul the house 
to press ministerB prematurely on die 
subject, or to suspect France of an 
intention to violate that feith whidi, 
up to the present point, she had 
most perfectly maintained? Ho- 
nourable members vTOuld not forget 
the manner in which the right ho- 
nourable foreign secretary li^ been 
called upon for disclosures with re- 
spect to Soudi America, at the com- 
mencement of the session— 'the ur- 
gency with vrhich he had be«i 
pressed to speak out upon thatques- 
tion--when it turned out eventually 
that the very views which the right 
honourable secretary vras chatged 
with delayiiw, he had actnalhr com- 
municate four months before to 
every government in Europe : and 
a more worthy, dignified, or stafeeik 
manlfte doctanent than that vidncfa 
^xmtained them, had never, he (Ifr. 
littlelon) mi^ ventoffe to say, 
isEtaed from the office of a minister. 

For 



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For himself^ he did not know at 
what time precisely the evacuation 
of Spain by Fiance was fixed to take 
place ; but he should feel no sorprise 
at seeing the foreign secretary short- 
ly come forward, with documents 
which proved him to have been long 
in possession of the most satisfactory 
assurances upon the subject But 
upon what ground the suspicion of 
France rested, he must profess him- 
self unable to perceive. Surely it 
was not that we envied her in her 
present stuation. 

If the right honourable secretary 
had been so hi inimical to France 
as to wish to see her in a condition 
of peculiar difficulty, he could not 
have imagined a much more trou- 
blesome post than she stood in 
at pcesent France, in occupying 
Spsun, had seized a wolf by the ear, 
wnomshe could neither expect to 
bold tet, nor venture to let eo of. 
Louis XrV. had discovered when it 
was too late, the effects of interfe- 
rence with that country ; and Louis 
XVIII. was now trying vainly to 
tranquillize a people in whom every 
energy was exhausted, except that 
restl^sness of spirit which revolu- 
tionary changes never failed to en- 
gender; and which most likely would 
tempt them to rush in fury upon the 
government just established, when- 
ever the protection which supported 
it at the present moment was with- 
drawn. There was another drcum- 
stance— one to which he had just al- 
luded — which should induce the 
house to pause before it pressed the 
government for assurances as to the 
evacuation of Spain^ or suffered any 
motion to be founded upon the sub- 
ject < France herself, it should be 
recollected, had been subjected to 
military occupation ; and England, 
who was now to challenge her con- 
duct, had been the occupying power. 
It ought to be remembered, before 



we called hastily i^Km Fnaaoe to ac« 
count for her continuance in Spain, 
that we ourselves had sat down in 
France for three years at the head of 
150,000 men. No iem need be 
entertained for the influence of 
England — ^no doubts of her ascend- 
ancy in the afiairs generally of the 
world. England was in tnith Uie 
only free country in the world. 
The despotic governments were 
aware of this &ct, and knew how her 
moral influence Rubied and trebled 
the effect of her numerical strength ; 
this it vras, and this alone that had 
rendered her the 

** Capat ort>ia Inter motas oouiiiiBi genUon I** 

. Upon the whole, he (Mr. Littleton) 
conceived that the motion of the 
noble lord was founded upon a jea^ 
lou^ of the conduct of the French 
in Spain. As far as his view went, 
it did not occur to him that any suf- 
ficient cause for such jealou^ ex- 
isted; and he should theiefore sit 
down, by moving, as an amendment 
upon the noble lord's resolution, 
** That this house* being satisfied of 
the firmness and sound policy which 
has guided his msgesty's councils in 
respect to the late hostilities betweoi 
France and Spain, and considering 
the several conditions by which the 
declaration of Ei^land's neuteality 
in the contest was qualified, sees 
nothing in the present circumstances 
which calls upon it to express any 
apprehension of a permanent military 
occupation of Spain by the arms of 
France." (Cheers.) 

Mr. Canning rose. —He had wait- 
ed, he said, and naturally* until the 
very moment when the house vras 
beii^ called on for its decision ; for 
he could scarcely persuade himself* 
that a motion, brought forward after 
such immense preparation, and a 
motion, to the effective prosecution 
of which one other hapless motion 
had already been sacrificed* was it- 
self. 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



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self, in its turn, to be abandoned by 
M the accustomed supportets of the 
noble mover. (Hear, hear.) He could 
hardly believe, seeing as he did be- 
fore him a most considerable victim, 
who hady on a former night, been 
oompletdy deserted, (hear, and 
laughter), and whose friends out of 
doors had ^ven him as a reason for 
that desertion, that the great effort 
was to be made upon a motion yet 
to come, and that it would not be 
prudent, b^ any previous display, to 
weaken the impression which was 
then to be produced, (hear, hear, and 
cries of ** No,")— he really could 
scarcely be convinced, when he be- 
held and recollected these things, 
that the debate of the present night 
could have been about to close at the 
moment when he had taken it up ; 
and that not only the motion of tne 
noble lord opposite was to go entirely 
unsupported, but such an amend- 
ment as that proposed by the hon. 
member for Stafford suffered to pass 
without a stru^le against it (Hear, 
hear.) But, ifhe was surprised, he 
was not dissatisfied with the " 
tion manifested by the house : for it 
was imponible to look at the noble 
lord's motion by itself, or to consider 
it in any other light than as the last 
of a series — ^no— -he begged pardon 
—it was only the third, and it mig;ht 
not (laughter) be the last — ^in which 
an attempt had been made to take 
back something from the recorded 
ai^probation of the house. He said 
fiom the recorded approbation of the 
house, and he thought he might add, 
of the settled opinion of the country, 
in favour of the conduct of govern- 
ment in the kte contest ^tween 
France and Spain. (Hear, hear.) 
Twelve months back, when the first 
great attack had been brought for- 
ward, it had been anticipated that 
the triumph of those who put the 



government upon its trial would be 

complete. (Hear.) Theddbatewas 
to be triumphant— -not overpowering 
—but final. (Hear, and lau^ter.) 
All who had taken pajrt, even shghdy, 
in the impugned transaction, wen 
to be swept away ; and for those pe- 
culiarly responsible, then* remams 
were not to be found— tlieir ashes to 
be collected by their friends. (Much 
laughter, and *' Hear.") But how 
did the affair turn out ? Where ww 
the victory and the song of joy?— 
ExitHS ergo guts estf 
" Hide bhutaing gloiy— hide Pultowa'f day !•• 

Never had rout and overthrow been 
so complete ! (Laushter and great 
cheers.) The records of parliamient 
afforded no example of defeat so un- 
qualified : of such utter profligatum 
of argument In no age, at no pe- 
riod vrithin the stretch of parliament- 
aiy history, could any instance be 
found of a failure so heavy ; or of 
any failure by a thousanddi part so 
perfectly grievous' and extensive, 
taking into account the comfortable 
anticipations by which the enterprise 
had been ushered in. (Excessive 
ter, and cheering.) Upon that 
occasion (the first ctebate) the. ge- 
neral policy of covemment had re- 
ceived the approbation of the house. 
So fiur, therefore, as to the main 
consideration, the question was at an 
end. But in the course of the next 
session, the war having concluded, 
it was thought that particular parts 
of the transaction might be selected, 
in which blame might, up to a cer- 
tain point, be fixed upon the govern- 
ment, vrithout attacking (what would 
have been inconvenient) the general 
vote of approbation : and on that 
occasion, a noble lord oppoote 
(lord Ntvent), after bringing rorward 
the question in the ^pe « a niost 
unreasonable and untenable propo- 
sition, conveyed in a most temperate 

and 



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aad eloquent i|)eeeh (hear, hear)* 
hud been left in the deflerted slale 
to which he (Mr. Canning) had 
already sufficiaody adTcrtBCL The 
noble mover on the present evening 
had oome ficnrward upon a second 
iiundated point, and ne, in s^Mte of 
fab noble aUy!8 £site, expecW to 
laakeAoonsideiable impression. But 
he (Mr.Cannii^) said again, that it 
wm impossible to view the noUe 
lond^a proposition singly. The pro- 
{Motion was not Ihat it was oontraiy 
to the interests of this countxy that 
Rmiee diould remain in nbssession 
of Spain. If that were the propo- 
fltion» it would be a proposition self- 
cndinit : a proposition wfaidi no man 
could think of contradicting: no 
man could suppose that it vras the 
policy of Engiand that France shoidd 
remain in tl^ permanent possession 
4^ Spain; but the proposition of the 
«oble lead >(lord John Russell), taken 
Inify, came to this: whenthiehouse 
had oome to the resolution of de- 
ciding that it was not erpedientior 
Ifaglmd, at tlie risk of oompromi- 
fliog her neuta^jty, to prevent the 
irar itttween France and Spaln^ it 
h^. not contemplated a temporary 
occupation of uie latter country l^ 
the troops of the former ; the ques^n 
BOW was, whether that^occiiqpation 
had been conducted in sudi a spirit, 
or had continued for such a time, as 
to raise a foir presumption, on ovr 
parts, that it was meant for odier 
purposes than those which were pro^ 
ftssed ; and if this could be made 
out, whedier the noble lord opponte 
hada ri§^t to call upon the house fiM* 
aa expression of opinion imon die 
antgect; or whether, that tact not 
bftng made out, there was sufficient 
ia the general proposition of the 
noble lonl, apjAied not to the aspect 
of immftdiatp circumstances, but to 
the ceeeived policy, and ordinaiy 



conduct, and pvoi)afale mws of 
FVance, whether there was Bufficient 
in this state, to warrant him in caiU 
iagupon the house for itsinteiforw 
enoe ? Now the hon« member for 
Staiford had said, and truly, that if 
the noble lord really thoi^ that the 
occupation of Spain had continued 
longer than was consistent widi the 
mSStf of Rngland, he should have 
moved, not for papeia, as he had 
contented hmiself with doiag now, 
but, at onoe, for an address to faia 
au^esty, pnyiw that he woidd call 
upon uie kingof EEanoe to withdiair 
his army. ]£it the noble lord set 
out by a course which was negative 
in itself. He b^an by saying, *^ I 
will believe no assurances given by 
FVance," and concluded by desiring 
the house to »st at those aasufanceb 
(Hear, hear.) Why, if theassurancea 
were good for nodiing, surely the 
noble lord ougte to look ^ some 
better security; but, settmg out fay 
saying that; nothing wfaidi was stated 
by mnoe oodd be bdieved, he 
then fen short of his own infereiioei» 
and was satisfied to stop with movii^ 
for French declarations. The quea* 
tion, however,- was, iirfiedier the 
noble lord had laid a parhamenlBiy 
ground for the production of the as* 
soranoes in question ; and he [Mr. 
Caiming) was ready to argue the 
point in any way — to suppose either 
the existence of such professions, or 
their non-existence. He woidd sup- 
pose government to be in possession 
of assurances from FVance that the 
oooiqKition of Spain was to be given 
up at the first practicable mcwient ; — 
then, if those assurances were pro- 
duced, the noUe lord would be bcmd 
to say he did not believe them. On 
the other hand, suppose sudi assuf- 
raaces not to exist, and suppose Uiem 
not to exist because iSbey had net 
been adced for^then, how did he 

(Mr. 



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PARUAMEMTART DEBATES. 



223 



(Ifr. GaMDlig) defendhiiiiaelf ? Hii 
defaaoe waft a slxfft and « pfaia one. 
He said, tfaat at the outeet of the 
oiBirri between FnuM^ and Spain, 
ttUB country had qualified her neu- 
trality by three specific conditions. 
The first of these was, that Portugal 
should not be attacked. TheseoMid 
w, that there ahould be no inters 
faoioe in& South America. The 
tibitd was, that diere should be no 
{MnHuieiit occupation of Spain. 
And though there was no diranol 
dedmalion contamed in the des- 
pitdieft as to what would be te 
«0Dae^uence of any breadi of these 
conditions, yet no man who was 
in the least d^;ree versed in dipk>» 
mfltic affims, wodd deny that it must 
have been Miy undenlood that no 
violatnn of them would be permitted 
by this country. For two then outof 
these three conditions, ^ey were 
already viitaally performed. For* 
tqgal had myt been molested; and 
S<Mth America was left untouched-— 
for every one admitted the dedarsk 
tions of France upon that last point 
to be sufficient Then, if two of 
the French conditions had already 
beenperformed in course, ^ihat rtg^t 
had we to doubt the due performance 
of the third ? Three months back, 
if the dechuations as to South Ame- 
rica had been ad^ed for, they could 
not have been produced. Ue (Mr. 
Oatming) in declining to bring them 
forward, must have stood upon worse 
nound dian he occupied at presenit. 
Heriiould have argued for the neces- 
sary delay, and (m hoped) have ob- 
tained it; but there would only then 
have been one |dedge from France 
lid&led, and that the weakest, as an 
argument, because the temptation 
was the least to its violatioiu But, 
two conditions— one a most natural 
one*-— were now complete ; andff&* 
vemmant surdy had aiig^ lo daim 



ezemptioD firomthenecssn^effiuw 
ther discov e rias d iscoveries whichy 
as regarded the noble lord, would be 
of no value, because nothing but the 
foct could prove the fact; nothing 
but the actual evacuaticm of Spain 
could convince those who were un- 
willing to bblieve that she ever would 
be evacuated. For himsd^ he de- 
dared, as a minister and an indivi- 
dual, that he believed France was as 
anxious to put an end to the ooen- 
padoB as the noble kxd, or Hb 
fiiends, couM be that she shodd put 
an end to it ; but he was eqaalfy 
sure, that if it were put to him to say 
shoidd she-^that was, France-^ 
inarch out now, or shoidd she no^ 
it would be qinte beyond his power 
to say that she should. (Hear, near.) 
But it was asked, how long ww 
France to remain in die poasessiOB 
of Spain ?-^was she to hold the 
country until Ferdinand VII. gaw 
free institutions to his subyeols ? bi 
one sense heahouldsay, he bdieved, 
««Wouklto God that she were;" and 
in another, that he hoped to God thiit 
she was not WouM to God dnt 
she were, because she would, as in- 
stitutions stood, prevent much iU* 
Heaven forbid die shouki, because 
he foared she would have to remaw 
for ever. 0iear.) Qnethiag, how* 
ever, he would say —and it was only 
candid towards France to avow i^-* 
h^ did believe that whateverabsenoe 
there was of every horror and excess 
in Spain, was owing to Frendi inter- 
ference, and to the presence of the 
French army. He mired not to be 
misunderstood. He by no meaw 
intended to say— «nd heaven forbid 
that he shoidd say— that this foot r^ 
deemed France from the original sin 
of her invasion. (Gieenk) That 
question, however, was past: itsbsod 
in some sort with die transactions of 
former years. He did not defcnd 

the 



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PAEUiif BHTAiry 'OUAVES. 



lilt mtit^lmi^ nift ftilmmiU'\ He 



[ >d«Mi' 0^ edUmto viii^. rjtai 

tiiettut«iQ»tb«f if«it'«b ;/Juad«th«il 

kiMa*iBAn<>«4iedid:iiotMifeve tM 
mtbeiaBnidsofhiatofy'tfasreriinaraof 
caaeof fln.iiividuigann]f ^QOla cttib 
e««aof a iHendljr A»ree in a Ibmipi 
etMBiHy, except it ^wevea ibroe rbe- 
kN^ng tor Grett' BntBia,'*— no odicr 
iiislfliioe iipon Tooord in Wycb either 
invnfen^ or attka^ had thcnadvea^ 
done >8o little fniadnef in a fineign 
sMe^ ^and had pvefenfeedtfaedoinrof 
80 nnich. (Repeated cheers.) The 
teranination intended bj France to 
hepnniitary •oecupolibift of Spain had 
att along-been! earlier than he could 
have hoped 'for, and she adU intend- 
ed, if possible, to keep her day. 
With reject to the mode of the oe* 
cupanc^ and leven the seeming in- 
tent of 'it, he thoQgfak< minppreheo* 
aion m some ({uartma eooatad* An 
hon. member (Sir R. Wtlaon) had 
adverted to* the oooupation of Cadia ; 
aildattfted that CadiE, to 4w) uaeMaa 
a militBiy poat, mtnt be.oocupied fa^ 
at kaat QbfiGO men. Now, as it 
oerfainly wna nofe oocnpied by one 
}M that mnnb^r, <it f^Hodld Mloar 
that it cMdd not be'retained wiih a 
miKtary ivi^w ; -and^ inr 'truth, (he 
polkicd 'events oonnactikl -wMi it»^ 
Its bavingbeen a aoit of tiM cbpbalv 
and the' point at vrbiehtbe'oonati«a^ 
tiott v»aa gMerated'-^^vonld aalikn^ 
ently explain ita being' occupied 
trnder theprisaettt ^y^ltbVBk In thfe 
same way with TespecC'to* Bails^cls, 
there was a neceaaiiy which explain^ 
ed the reiefitidn or it. The'-m^at 
enmient general of tfaeage^iadde^ 
dsffed that ^e-did not.considerhhn'- 
aelf safe at Caffiz, tinleaa he ednld 



Md BflAi4Qi.at MaHMe time. ^ fitt 
Wad Wi' it that ateifnnaiHt were 
Mdgtkii'aMrtoaaaikatlMi^B wtei 
amy waaamhey ' ^df^dyMg tfaeirin^ 
flifeiioa ? - '^Ww^atoyf Ofettig'oii'ilie 
(arttaWe»>td- whioh HtM banf nSw 
hJcring tlM'aaoeiktedy 4n Ispdii^ w^ne 
but loo mbeh iaelined*^ ^re^tiiey 
tetoing dii<gl<Maiir'«inffie<M pre- 
iodiees'o^tho^nMMdd^ or «aniihigthc» 
blind 'Any of thepopdladli^'' On the 
eontraiy, they w^re prdtactfi!^ di^ 
vaty peoplaitrllbnk'fkeyhad'^tteted 
llietx)iltttrytoaabdil&Y bya^^trange 
coar^ t«f evenn thM wHole^^kaadtdn 
and business-'itt fipafti had Ufcotfie 
cfaaaigad. 'Hiey- had cone into ihe 
oouimy to d^iind the fiuiastal patty 
againat the eonalitationaliabi'; and 
now they weia actUatty- intcliferin^ 
for the conatltatioiial'pairtT'^vflh the 
fanaiica. How * long itins < system 
was to last, he- (Mr. Oakndiig) did 
not knoWb Only a fottaigbt <badtv 
he had" hoped for it9'early>teMiBa2 
tion; but every 8uaceasiive]^%inee 
had .lemened that expeokilion; •' Of 
thia^ howler,' ' ' he * did * erjleiiaiti 
the moat decided oottvidaon-u^4hHl, 
wiieaever the tiaie came* thai * Spain 
migfat beleftlo herself -wifr smiy; 
France vrould be as much ptetted m 
uie proapeet of* wilhdiawtng iier 
troopiy as Englandceeid poanbly'bei 
at aeein? herevacOBfee^'the^eaiimfy* 
He shoijSd aK>w oome^ <then,i '^lo^, 
* the tight hon. geintlenlan'conliniieci; 
to'the ob)eetv)n * whieh had ^bten 
taken to* the roodiein vi^neh die 
•neotrality of this comitrV had beei^ 
oonduotdL' Neutrality, 'be'itmated; 
'had-Btricdy been pcesai^ i 'btft dib 

- praservadon' of'it^had not been eAtt^ 
> getheraoeoByasteiriitbfesupposed'i 
'^ and' it' was WK^ith whale to 'observe, 
' that *some* "diffieuldea 'huA been 
'^ thrown in ila way by those who were 

- amdhg^the mbai araant a^dkleVb^for 
ita thaintftnrtntee: (Hte, hear.) ^ 



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835 



6Mh oCbir upon aav ooane, and 
an^of the memlMn of eitlier of thoM 
fiuinilieB dioM to take meawwi in 
opposition to the agreement decided 
oo, would not the leading^ P^^* 
wboae friends had thoqght it right 
to do thisy he compelleid to go a 
little fiuther» perhaps, than he would 
have otherwise done, in order to ao* 

rhimflelf of possible swpicion ? 
had listened to the noble lord 
(loid Russell) with a feeling, if he 
might be allowed to say so, of great 
kindness. He fully appreciated the 
principfes upon which the aoUe 
lofd*s views had proceeded : but the 
noUe lord 1^ hunself been one of 
the greatest impediments to neutral- 
ity. (Hear, and laivfater.) There 
waa another noble loid opposite, 
too, (lord Nugent) who waa an enor« 
mous breach of neutialily. (Much 
hm^ter.) The hon. gent, however, 
waa not the only person who had 
hdped to place the government in 
tUa predicament, though other per* 
sona who had deported themsdves 
with simikr behaviour, had not re- 
dooed ministers to the necessity of 
making excuses : for at the time that 
he, widi that generous prodisality of 
hia services which he had lavished 
upon a cause not quite deserving of 
it, waa payii^ the penalty of his gal- 
hntry and courage in one quarter, 
there arose in ancSier quarter of that 
coio^ another luminary, who, 
tfiough he might not have addressed 
MmKlf to the state of the country 
with aa much militaiy effect as die 
hon. sent., certainly did not fall be- 
hind uie hon. gentleman in military 
intention. (laughter.) He did not 
widi to piy further into matters than 
was neoeaaaiy, and bysomeit might 
be thooght that in what he was about 
to say & was going too &r: but in 
cans o£ this nature, it was the duty 
[1824. 



of y>iM >w*fn t to 

•"^ ^' ^^^ ^wigwayto^ 
too midi seoiecv in respect to* the 
oonduct of individuals^ th^ nighl^ 
before they conki be sufficiently 
awaie ofit, become involved in hos^ 
tihties by the warlike conduct of 
their own subjects. (Hear,and laughs 
ter.) To go on to his n ana t ive : 
it was about die middle of last Jidy 
that die heavy Falmouth coach--* 
(loud and long continued lavgfater)^ 
—that the hoivy Falmouth coach 
(kusfater) was observed travelling to 
its ctestinadon, duought the roads o(F 
ComwaMi with mcwe than ita usual 
gravity. (Vei^ loud laughter.) There, 
were, aooording to the best advices, 
two inside passengeia (laughter)-*- 
one a lady ot no inoonsidemble di- 
mensions (lau(j^iter), and a gentle* * 
man, who, as it had been since as- 
cettained, was conveying the succour 
of hispeiBontoSpain. (Cbeersand 
laijf^hter.) He was informed, and 
havmg no reason to doubt his in- 
formant, he firmly believed it, that 
in the van belonging to the coach — 
(gendemen must know the nature and 
uses of that auziliaiy to die regular 
stageKsoacheswasaliox, more bulky 
than ordinary, and of most porten- 
tous contents)— it was observed, that 
after their arrival, this box and the 
passenger beforementioned became 
inseparable. The box was now 
known to have contained the uniform- 
of a Spanish general of cavalry 
(much laughter); and it was said 
of the hehnet, wluch was far beyond 
die usual size, diat it exceeded all 
other helmets spoken of in histoiy, 
not excepting the celebrated helmet 
in the QuUe of Otranto. (Cheers 
and laughter.) The idea of going to 
the relief of a fortress Uododed by 
sea and besi^;ed by land, with the 
uniform oi a l^;ht cavaliy officer, 
was new, to say the least of it. 
P About 



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About Ak lime, tht ibnseaSafeiby 
the boat geot, -mbSidi had nevw.esr 
ntod* butoQ met^ wm. in all .piob»* 
bility ei^jectettA^ie ivould aot staj 
to dfltanntiie whether it was to have 
eoiisist€d of 10,00&ot 5,000 imai. 
No doubt, upon ^ aitival of the 
general in hiB unifonn, the coite» 
srast have rubbed their hands widi 
satisfiMsdon, and oonduded that now 
the piomiBed force was come^ that 
diey would have little more to fear, 
^iaogfater.) It did come, as much 
•Tit as eveK would have been seen by 
tiheeortesorthekin^; but it came 
m diat sense and in no other, which 
was descitbed by a witty nobleman, 
George duke of Buddn^ham, whom 
die noble lord opposite vedconed 
among his lineal anoestora. In the 
play oi die R^iearafd^ there was a 
scene occupied with the designs of 
two usurpers, to whom one <^ their 
party entering sa^ 

" Sire, 
" The army at the door, bnt in dliguise, 
' *' Snlrsiits a word of ««lii your nijeatiea.'* 

(Very, loud and continued lau^tter.) 
Such must have been the effect of the 
arrival of die noble kid. How be 
was received, or wliat effects heope- 
rated on the councils and affairs of 
jdie coites by his arrival, he ^Mr. 
Canning) did not know. ThmgB 
were at that Juncture moving too xa* 
pidly to their final issue. How fiur 
die noble lord conduced to the ter- 
mination by plumping his weight 
into die sinking scale of the coites, 
was too nice a quesdon for him just 
now to settle. (Cheers and laughter.) 
But it must be evident, that by cir- 
cumstances like those to which he 
had alluded, the government, if it 
exercised common and necessaiy 
caudon, was called upon, widiout 
any appeal from the French gowm- 
ment, for disavowal, it was not for 
him to condemn the principles ipnd 
modves which led dxe hon. gende- 



man to mdEie thai generous saori&ot 
of himaetf to the cauae of Spain ; but 
dwt wivieh he uraed was, that if 
diey woidd have &t neubality oa 
the pait of the government, they 
must be content to be bound by the 
fedings^ expressions^ and deteimi* 
nations of govemmoit; nor oi^ht 
diey to expect to be allowed indivi^ 
dually to oanv on war a^dnstago- 
venunoit with which their own was 
in amity; and in doing so th^ com- 
pelled li»eir own government to go 
rarther than otherwise th^ need to 
go from the strict line of neutcalitar, 
and to say mora dnn they would 
otherwise say, in order to set the 
balance <Ace disturbed^ again even. 
There was another part of the ques- 
don upon which he diiered froml 
the m^le lord whose modon they 
were now discussing. The ooUe 
lord insisted, that while Spain waa 
in the oecupadon of France, shodid 
any Spaaisn force be raised to send 
to South America, that ought to be 
considered in all respects as a Fieadi 
force, and as audi treated by <xieafc 
Britain. Now, so iar he wouldcon- 
oede to die ndiile lord» that this woidd 
be a question of d^ree. He could 
imagine such an oecupadon of Spain 
by j^mce as would leadhim tocQB-» 
jecture that it was for other purpoaea 
than those professed by.France; and 
he could imagine, that if under each 
an occupation any veiy oonsiderahie 
levies of l^panish troops were laised 
tobe sent against South America* it 
would be a strong indication of that 
disposition on the part of Franoe. 
But they were to lookat thinj;? as they 
now stood : there was nodung in the 
condition of die Frendi forces*— no* 
thing in their distribotion— -notfami^ 
in w quality of their occnptttion— 
nothing in the mode and condooC 
hitheito employed aa to them—^ao» 
tUngin die councils or dK pPBciee 

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337 




01 the Fkviieh fgofmmooMb^^^t 
in the dedaratioDg «f th« '^ 
govemment to kad to any- : 
tiiat the French government hetddiit 
intention. He opuld not aigue upon 
any case which stood in direct con- 
tnidiobion lo the vievis and pohcy 
of the French government His 
answer would be-^look at the papers 
on the table, and it would he seen 
that the French goyemment closely 
approximated to the views of the 
English widi respect to the Spaniab 
Anerican colonies. With those who 
would say, *• I can't trust the Frendi 
—I donH b^eve a word <^ their a»- 
saraoQces," there oould be no argo- 
meat of any kind : no assurances of 
aay sort could prevail with them. 
He was sure that the French govern- 
ment k)okied at the question not pre- 
cisely in that point of view in which 
itwasQonsideredbythe EngKsh^ 
veroment, because the rdative in- 
tefests were different; but they view- 
ed it in the same, and in no other 
light, with the oUier powers of 
j&rope. As 10 the other apprehen- 
aion entertained by the noble lord, 
it was useless to discuss it. That 
wj other member of the Europeasi 
c o a fe d e tiiey could be put in daoi^ 
by the pvesent occupation of Spain, 
was a vain dread. It was not pos- 
sMe, ^t&at ibeir situation or civcikm- 
ststtces, that Hiey pould by that cir- 
cmmitfttice be placed in greater dan- 
ger from the power of FVanoe:— 

" Stabant orantes piiml traosmittere cttrsom, 
*' TendelMntqae nuunu ripe nlteiiortiamoro." 

If the noble lord's motion were car«- 
flied, he would find ftom the papers 
prodoeed the accuracy of everything 
whkh he {Mr. Ganninff) had now 
advanced. Nor oould there be any 
immediHte' objection to it, asfo as 
tlienagativeassui»KMofthe«r<»Mh 
govtffuisietit were in cpisatioii. ilie 
real obstade with the noble loidwas. 



tfaa* he had not any parHamantary 
ftfoiaads for his motioBb His faon* 
ttieat near him hadpuwaed« courie^ 
in opposing^the motion, which was 
perfeotly just to the government. 
Whenever a question of suspicion 
was mooted unjustly, in proportioft 
to the injustice done to the motives 
of government, so much thestronger 
ou^t to be the declaration of ooi%- 
dence by the house. If the reasons 
of that confidence did not warfaint so 
strong an expression of it, iiat wasa 
subject which would soon be brought 
to a clearer understanding : if l^ 
conduct of the government did justify 
the confidence, it was only fair ani 
honourable under those circumstan- 
ces to bringit to the proof, and nmke 
it known by a direct declaration of 
that confidence. (Cheers.) If the 
fears of the noble lord were ground*' 
less,-*-if there was no probability 
made out that the French govtemment 
intended to pudi the military occu- 
pation of Spain into politimd pos^ 
session — ^if the British govenun^it 
had left no steps tmtri^ to assure 
themselves of the intentions of the 
French, and found no ground whM^ 
«ver for apprehension— and if- the 
house found ail this tqwn the papess 
already before them, diey were 
bound to vote against the noMe lord ; 
andftirther, if the;^ found, that being 
assailed by suspicion, tfiey were en- 
tine^ without hlame upon the mat- 
ter m question, he hoped that they 
would do the government the jurtioe 
to say openly to the country, that 
as they had nothing to allege against 
their past conduct, so the^ atyil held 
undiminished oonfidenoe m them as 
to the fbture. (Loud and long ooo- 
tinued oheets.) 

After a fow observatioiiB in «it- 
planadofk fix>m sh* R. Wilson, Sir 
X Mackintosh, toad Jolm RnMli, 
and Jir. Canning, th0 ameodoient 
was carried without a^ivision. 

March 



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PARLIAMENTARY . I^BATESL 



March Id.^The hcMse toii^ 
xdolimi' iflMtfitito a oomBilfcee m 
su^ly on tfae'Irisfa nuaoeUanaoai 



£4»(K)Q lor theeompktkxi oC the 
.£l5,«K)afiyrkUhci« 



Mr, OtfiuUnam^mxpM. that the warn * 

of the lxyfi^€ork'iflBtitQtioiL 

That a 8uiiiTMCeKoe0dmgi7»OOO£. 
be granted to the voyal Dwlia w^x 
cielT. 

£10^168 %9. 3d., Britiflh cunen«* 
cy, to defky^ expense of the 
oominissioiieffi for makisg wide and 
.convenient atveeta in the city of 
Dublin. 

£2^500 lor the fanoupg society of 
Iieland. 

£300 ior the royal Irish academy. 

£500 fbr the conunissioneiB of 
.diaiitabie donations and beqoests. 

£19,938 for the linen boafd of 
iNiancu 

£16,800 for the booid' of woiks 
in Irdsoid. 

£16»000 for printing, slatnnery, 
and • other dtsbiirB^Mi^, for the 
.dnef and under 8eofelaiy*s office in 
beland, fico. 

£6,500 to defiKty the expense of 
nnbtishing prodamationsintheiMi- 
Ini Qaa&ttey a|id other newapepen in 
Ireltod, for the year 1824. . 

£5,900 tb defray the expense of 
prbting and binding' the jpoblic acts, 
m the use of 'the magwates and 
pablic offices in irdand 

£24»m0 for criminai lonmetxh 
tiobs -toid other law proeeedingB in 
li^eland. 

£5,200 for deficiencies of last 
f6kti npoii the subject of> ^ giant 
kst mentioned. 

£8,848 for the support^ nmn 
oenfonnist ministers of hehnd 

£4,254 fbif sececfoig ministsis 
fiom tfie synod of Ulster^ • ^ 

£756** fol' utmssUuitdisBWifingini*- 
fireknd. ' . 



£4^500 . for .expeue» ofi hdani 



£1»072 for salaries of the hMi 
lottery offices. 



7,000 for expenses of polm 
aftul watch establishments of Duhtin* 

£7,140 Iot salaries to paycoi»* 
miBBionersof judicial in<|Qiiy in Isfr< 
land. 

£1,651 to pay ^ adaries of 
oomnusnoneiB of inq«nry inu> Ae 
reoeipla of the land revoMie in be* 
land. 

£5,10a to pay the salaries and 
expanses of the record commisBioa 
of Ireland. 

£1,115 for sapefannuated allow- 
ances. 

£10,000 for immovemsM in. the 
rdad between London, and Dablin4 

£5,000 for janensesof tri^oMr 
metrical survey ot fadaod* 

The whole of whieh wewcairiedL 
The house then tesumed, avd^ps^A 
greas reported. 

ALuor hin^ 

MARGH^w^ilfr. Ptels^ itfaal 
he rose fos the nuipoaa of '^mimxg* 
ing n duty which he oonaidered to.Se 
imposed upon him as a mi«istnr of 
the crown. ^His objeet wlis» to w^ 
quest tloBt parliament wottkicoaikimie 
to the executinre govcrancntthe'pgB* 
session of those jxiwars-wfaioh th^ 
already ei^oyed wil^ respeot to^atiMaa 
airiving ujto and rssioing iui 4baM 
country. In doing tlns» he fok that 
he laboured under some emfaanas* 
ment, the nature of whidimust sug* 
aest itsdf to eveiy gentleman who 
heard Innu Of late yearn ihe sab* 
ject had nndei:gone repeated and de^ 
taakd discossioii, and It was pnobable 
that cwenr argaaaem in £uniw of and 

the rminds.of ths .majority of tke 
(membem pvssanL 'HewaB^jm the 
one hand, reluctant to weary the at- 
tention 



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ttMiM of ^tbehouelsy tbs repetkiDn 
of ai^gumente willi vmcbj tfaey wtte 
well aoqainted;: whilst,' oa the 
other hand, he was still more reluct 
tantie have k supposed that he 
passed over the question in silenoe, 
became he oonaidered it a matter of 
iikKffefenoe» and not deserving of 
particular notice. He would mte^ 
rare prder te subjeet himsdf to die 
embanrassment oocaaioned by pur- 
sinngdie temer course, and proceed, 
certmnly as bvieAy as he could, to 
state the f^rounds upon which he pro- 
posed to continne the alien act, 
lM»ping that diose gfentleKlen who 
ooDflkkred that he was< unnecessarily 
occupying their time, would excuse 
him OD aoootmt of the motives which 
induced him to do so. He he^ed, 
ia the first instance) to remind the 
hone of the precise nature of the 
pvamiotiaof'tne adiea act, psosed in 
1816, wluoh eonliEdned material mo- 
diiioa^DS of the aidt which was in 
fikce dorine the war. The act of 
1816, which it was proposed to con- 
tinue, provided that every alien 
should ^ve at tlie pert where hedis- 
embaiked a descoption of his name 
and profession) and of the coanftry 
fiom whence he came^ to an ofiicer 
appointed there to' receive it A 
penalty was attached to a wilful dia* 
regard of that provision* With re^ 
spect'to dnt.ptft of the measure, he 
mprdiended there wauld be ktde 
draerence of opinion. It ooukl not 
be considered at all unreasonable 
that alienB, who owed no allegiance 
to the government of this countiy, 
should be required to give such a 
deseviplion of themselves as wasre^ 
qinred by the act The moie ma- 
terud provisions of the act, however, 
were certainly of another descrip- 
tion* They empowei«d the crown, 
l^ proclamation or ord^» to direct 
an suien to leave this country ; and 



ia* cases of nea-tooaiphaace with 
such erdeiE,^ they auAocfaed the in- 
ffiotkmcf^piBnalticfr which oouU be 
by no means exorbitant. - For the 
fisst offisnce^ the* .penalty, was itn- 
pnsonmeBt not eaBcoeduig<]nifr aMNoCh* 
If the ofieace wiere^ repeated, the 
alien was subject to^ imprisonment 
for any period not eaceeoing twelve 
montlis. That WEHfthe maximum of 
pumsfameat In cases where the se- 
cretBiy of ste^te had reason to suppose 
that an alien abuld not pay ooe$- 
ence to the prodamation of the 
crown, he was empowered to give 
him in charge to a messenger, and 
send him out of the country. It was, 
however, provided, as a. check upon 
this power, that if the alien should 
signify to Uie secretary of slate that 
he had reasooe to assign whv the 
prdckunation of the crown should 
not be obeyed, the secretary of state 
shotdd be compelled to susjpend the 
execution of hie order, until the afien 
shoidd stale his case before the privy 
council, and that tribuaal oum to a' 
decision with respect to it 

He belienred he had given a tole- 
rably correct, though a very sum- 
mary detml of the piovisioBS of the 
act He wmikl now briefly advert 
to the objections which had at a for- 
mer period been urged against de- 
volving such powers on the ministers 
of the crown* He would not do this^ 
for the purpose of detracting fipm 
the just foroe of those objections, but 
(mly to consider what real wei^ 
they possessed* The first ohjectioa 
to the act,, that which had been put^ 
forward in the most prominent maa- 
ner, was, that it was a complete de-' 
paiture from the ancient policy of 
the country with regard to aliens, 
which it was said had always af- 
forded them a hospitable reception 
into this country, and liberal treat- 
ment whilst they remained in it 

He 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



V» £d not wMi to decilhot from ike 
character which this couiilry ifad 
justly obtttsed' iot ihe hospHabk 
edBmot whldt'k hftd mftniftrttfd to- 
ymtda stfdaffeM. It was a pmid 
trail in die onaraoter of the ooun^, 
ttod 101 alkti,'Oii arriving in it, had 
nhmp ioamd an aayium from perae- 
oitioii, and had been treated with 
aveiy degree of Idndness and libe« 
vaiit^, ecHisistent widi die interests 
of the coimtiy itself: buthewonld 
say confidendy, and he was prepared 
to pr^ve, that there was nothing in 
the policy now pmsued with r^ard 
to aliens, which would not bear 
comparison with the policy which 
h«d been pmsued at any other 
period of our histoiy; smd that this 
country was as much entitled at the 
present moment to the noble praise 
of affording an asylum to the op- 
prMBed, aira a refti^ to those who 
were unable to find refuge any 
where else, as it was at any former 
time. R would be a fallacy to con- 
tend that at any former perKxl it had 
been the policy of thu country to 
admit aliens indiscriminately, and 

a some argument very like this 
been advanced in Uiat house. 
From what had been said on former 
oecasions, one wonkl.really be in- 
clined to suppose that the interest of 
aliens was the oaramount object of 
the pelicy of this countiy. A re- 
fbence to hiattey, however, woidd 
piove diat a proposition of that na- 
ture could not be muntained for a 
moment At no period of our his- 
toiy had there existed an indiscrimi- 
nate admisBion of aliens. He would 
show^ by a reference to historical do- 
cuments, that there had aiwa^rs been 
reatricdoas imposed upon foreigners, 
as bindiag as those which existed 
nowi On a former dscunion, the 
opponents of 4he alien act placed 
muck reliance upon tiiat~ enactment 



ofmagnatkarUiy which pioffidedtfaat 
aliMis diMildnot be eKchided ftdm 
^the kin^m'iet^ nt(UM]Bi%»fttftit» 
4(nii whieh lord Ccdie had inter* 
preted to mean ualeei piolabited by 
act of parliament. In his (Mr. 
P^*a) opinion that paange applied 
to merchant-strangle ezclustvdy, 
and not to aliens ^erally. (Hear.) 
He would now dnect the attention 
of the house to thesituation in which 
aliens stood in this country at the 
early part of the reign of Henry IV., 
and he begged to observe that he 
would only allude to those periods 
of our histoiy when this country was 
in a state of peace, because if he re- 
ferred to a period of war he should 
be liable to the objection that ihe 
poli<^ of the government with regard 
to aliens was materially diffoit»t in 
time of war, fh>m wliait it was in 
time of peace. Henry IV., dien, 
not by an act of partiament, but by 
his own authority, issued an order to 
the keejper of the port of Dover, in 
which he recited the inconveniencies 
which had resulted fVom the indis- 
criminate admisrion of aliens in Eng- 
land through diat port--*' CemMB^ 
ramus danma etinooMmodaq^ iiobtt 
ef regno nastro^pir iMioi tt erffrrot 
mh>entns aHenigenarwt^ nobis taeoi^ 
Mcftti evenerunt el paierini flMHtns, 
vobia pr^Bcepimiu,** The order then 
went on to direct, that the keeper of 
Dover should not allow the aliens 
who were there to pass the limits of 
die town ; but to detain them there 
until his msrjesty should know die 
reason of their coming, and signify 
his pleasure thereupon. At the same 
time king Heniy sent anodier order 
to the keeper of the opposite port, 
Calais, directing him expressly not 
to aHow any foreigners to depart. 
'Sht phrase empbyed in the order 
was ccstaifily not vefy tilassifal or 
Ciceronian, namely, •* eMpp^t^^ 

from 



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231 



film tbit ptaoe to Eogiaiid. In the 
OiJais'€ia«r» howmfetf an exeeption 
IMB nade ia ftvoor of >*«wmator«f,** 
andtUsteMled to waf^mt thtojpi- 
BiOQ wfakh hft had veittizred to fltote 

The leigD of Elizabeth had al- 
ways been relened to as the period 
d our Ustoiy which contaiiied the 
fkmomM pcoo& of the hberaU^ 
which' had uniformly been exercised 
towaida alienB in this oouatiy« He 
mould be able to sbow that even in 
that re^n the liberal treatment of 
aliens had always been a subordinate 
oonrnderation to the interests of the 
eommunity. In her treatment of 
the Spanish exiles, Elizabeth was 
eeitainly liberal in the extreme, but 
she was far iiom extending the same 
deaee of liberality to all foreigners 
tnSscriminately. She bad, however. 
Motives fop granting indulgence to 
paoteatsmts; but she granted no such 
ladulgeDce to the R^Ban catholics, 
and ia bis opnion she was very right. 
^Heaiw) The fiKBtdooament to which 
he would lefer in the reign of Eliza- 
beth was a letter to the lord mayor 
of tbeoityof London, andtheofii- 
oats of the fibeities about it, fiom 
the privy ooonoil, dated the 27th of 
SeptoBttber, 1573, to the following 
e&ct: — ** And whereas their lord- 
M^ were informed that moche in- 
. fmoa grewe by reason that many 
fomilies of the sud straimgers dwelt 
pestred up In one place, that they 
ahold cause such inmates to be se- 
parate, and no m<»e to remaina to- 
ge^er than they shold see conve- 
nient to be suffered in the place of 
the abode; And further, where it 
was informed that divers straungers 
were there, that professing no reli- 
gion nor ftequentme any mvine ser- 
vice usedin this r^me, her majfM- 
tie's pleasure was ifa^ diuld be dis- 
patebed out of their jurisdictions by 



suoh a 



Bk ahuld be by tilem 



On the 21st of February, 1573, 
another letterwas written nom the 
privy eooncil to the lord mayor of 
Ijondon, and others of hia m^jes^s 
officers within the Itbertiea adjoining 
the city of London, which was as 
£^kywB :--«** That whereas upon i& 
viewe of staungers remayniqge 
thereabout, their lord^ps were in- 
formed that there were 1,500, which 
being repaired under colour of rdi- 
gion, were of no church, nor reffis- 
tred in any bolie. ' Her majestie*s 
pleasure is they shold be com- 
maunded to departe the realme 
within a tyme to be by them pre- 
scribed : and in case any upon no- 
tice hereof wold associate himself to 
any churche, for that it could not be 
thought but that this proeeeded ra- 
ther of collusion than otherwise, he 
shold not be admitted, but com- 
maunded to departe ; and for the 
execucion of the premyases they 
shold conferre together, a«i with the 
L. Byshopp.** After having read 
those documents, he thought, that it 
would be impossible for any one to 
argue that foreignere were never 
placed under restraints m England 
until the ii^ioduction of the alien 
act Here was proof that in the 
reign of Elizabeth, the boasted period 
of liberality to strangers, aliens were 
subjected to restricdons much more 
grievous than any which they now 
endured, and it was necessary to re- 
mark tint even Elizabeth's mvourite 
Flemish exiles were not exempted 
from those restrictions. (Hear.) 

Again, on the 20th oi October, 
1574, the privy council wrote to 
lordCobham, who was then lord war- 
den of the cinque ports, stating that 
the council were nven to understand 
that there was am greater number 
of strangers in Sandwich than by her 
majesty^s 



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FABUAMSNXA9¥ Wmi^VES. 



recting jnauiiy thereia ; and that if 
8Mch were found to be die qaaey tlie 
Qveiplus should/be r^py^ to,Qtber i 
places moreremote frpm ^ oe^ '0», 
the 8thpf Noveinbgr,,lD7;4^the,pri^ 
council sent an ai^er to. a . i^tt^ 
which had bee^ recqye^: i^m air 
'Christopher Heydoi^ the m^^ot^, o£ 
Lvnn, stating ftat th^ for^igpen^ m 
Norwich wished to depart ,wid,d,wdl 
in L3mn. tn the answer it was de- 
clared that « the queen will in no 
wise permit it; but if they will re- 
main where they are, and confonn 
themselves to order^.the queen is 
jdeased to suffer them ; if not, they 
may depart Ihe .realme^ and have 
passports accordingly." A letter of 
a similar purport, was at the same 
time written to the mayor of Nor- 
wich, In the reign of James I. pre- 
cisely the same policy was pursued; 
nay, at that period, aliens were not 
permitted to exercise any handic^ 
profession, or to sell by retail. It 
was unnecessary for him to state how 
greatly improved thie situation of Ib- 
reignera was in these r^pects at ihe 
present day. (Hear.) Inconsequence 
of various applications which had 
been made to the crown respecting 
the treatment of ^foreigners, James 
am)ointed '.a special commission to 
lake that subject into consideration. 
The directions which the king gave 

tothe commission were as follows ; 

" We, therefore, entering into due 
and serious consideration hereof, be- 
ing bound in our kingly office in the 
fiiBt place to be vigilant arid careful 
of the wdftre and prosperous estate 
of our own people, having been in- 
formed that strangers use much more 
liberty than is allowed unto them by 
the ttatute, especially in the using 
and €xeicising of handicraft- and ma- 
nual trades, and in selling by retail. 
Our purpose is, that the mawhant of 



fefjQtgp iwtiQW myrtiiig, hidior. for 

tnidofiff ^m^rQ^aodiMe. be ftedy.feor* . 
tei^tainfid r and 'uted^ i nn^ that . tfaft. 
slm^g^r, who feU«|h ^;rrataiJ[».^ 
uyq|htaiByilwq pd | CT a ft («,iBaiiwil ti»ie» 
bemgdi^l^aa inr.yowwWwa.ye 
fi|id.t«ibc»Q»oi^canv«nie^t...Y^ 9baU. 

vey to bfi/Jtakfln \xi. Hmtin^iofthe 
n^mfiSp^qualiti^ mi pit^asioiip^ 
ai^ |d^QeQ,/(^,)pMtatipA oC^JliaH^iVr 
gers boi^* 0ur.will«aad.pl^asMi^i8» . 
that 9McU iStrai^gfypB bpm put th^m^. 
sdves under puc noyal proteotiQo^ 
wlieDea^ by tbf^ lam. of. this, f^fim 
ihfsv .pv^hit m3^M wQrkiat>all,or,UBe. 
such trades but, as ,mrm$» to. the 
EiKglisb* But tb^.aie nolilodraw-. 
hither an increasing numbier .ol' xa»r . 
terless men ,of haQdifisalt 'tr^ik% to 
the esLtreme hurtbotliof Eog|lialM«4. 
strangers,butthat§ucbetf;^irspeedi]^ . 
retuniinto.tbeirowncou9tiM!p,Oirfu| , 
themselves to. work as.hi«^ peprvanls^. 
according to the true m^aniqg o£ tbe^. 
laws." HethQUflfbtdtatJaetwuiaow^ 
done enough to show that the peto: . 
which the country now piumi^d^tM- 
r^;ard to aliens wasnot, tq.say tfa# , 
least, Inqre severe than ..tha^ whicb 
ha4 been pursued jatfocmer pw^- 
ofpurhistwy, (Hear.l. 

Apother objection which J^dbetll . 
made to theactwaa, th^ the powers 
which it gaive to die. execjitive-wera 
liable tp. abuse, It.wa8<impQpsiUe 
to deny tjbajt. that oty^ctioii ap|^ 
wjdi some dcaree of, force,. .Bi9t h^ 
WQuld ask whether there «;ere not 
securities {gainst the. abuse oC. the 
powers conferred by ^e bijl ? In the^ 
first place, the alien possessed the 
power of ai^tealing (mn tbe.opdecof 
the secrelaiy of state to the privy 
council. Butthei^wasamuchiaon^ 
effectual check against abuse in the 
account whicii. the aecr^tuy^of, state 
must'give ,of .bia RWHytttinffhto^4?WB* 
liameyit (Hw^hiww.) \U!^fui^ 
personal 



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233 



{)enoiMd'ihiolM«^^^«r ^>^ 
pMiotti «r ittidMr^'^'lMd 

to ita lM9Pf««th«t ^hl «Hd'a^1^' 
a 'e maim afltide' of thesie ' powen ? 

tfaattiiepowa^'vitiidy ii^ ndw *e&Mtid 

ped trr Hutft, and say, «* Lo^k* ttt 

w^kBhrto'W'*^^ case with ^e6p«ct 
toilie wtnue.*^' He-^j^Fudied the hcnAe 
to 'tBidei8ettid'te.t he' did iMk mean 
to^ttcf tfant'becaifffe thtte liad'been 
iH}^Ame ^ike powersodnfiMed by 
the adt, tint vna a vetton why th!e 
afltvhotdd'be oMitinued;he merely 
wnhedto^how^diaft'dtafre had' been 
no'abine of ih60e powets, because he 
l aitiMt t ifaningtance^rftfaatnatere 
0^^ be prodocedy tlivcrald be an 
iDMirmomiteble' impediment in his 
nayendR' present occanon. (Hear, 
heur.)- Itappeaied ftom a retom 
irlneh tod been laid on the table at 
the inrtuioe 6f a noUe hffd opposite, 
i^btt€ttt whole number of ddiens sent 
oai'of'4^co«mtrymider'the piovi* 
aoD»of tlieact'smce 1616,amomited 
to-Qoly 17;'of these 11 or 12 were 
ind&vidiflds comiected withBuona- 
patter andof eoorse their banishment 
fr e xi iifaa eomnry i«Bted on peculiar 
giMml^* exdMively appfieable to 
tharcM.'-' The'mimber of petsons^ 
th e i eftwe , Who had been sent out of 
die 'country imder the operation of 
thract. Who were unconnected with 
Buonaparte, amotmt^ only 'to five 
or «x -during a periodof nearly ten 
years* ^ 

He could speak With greater cer- 
taioey of the proceedings dnrine the 
laal^ two years, in which it had be* 
come lijs^uty to enforce the proyi- 
aiom of tlie-act' In 1822 no per- 
son had been Mit oat of thecoun- 
lEf^^'aiMl in ^829^0^1^006 person'' 



had'b^sdtjected td dus ytice^ 
i%,^^ ifatt was dnder veiy peculiar 
dnmaolistaiidesh-^e* iAuded to oount 
BMtettU' Xfitnlieir argument which 
hsM'been ^odvanced against die qlien^ 
a^ Wis;* that it was noi required foir 
any'dbniiB^c'buir{)06es, but merely 
thai itm%lk'b& m^ ^vibservieiit to' 
the Wishes of fot^ign Jiowers. "the ' 
best answer which dould'be given to- 
that objection was to show what had 
ake^ takeif place. Witiun the last 
ten yeais, no individdal had been 
sent out of this countty at the sug- ^ 
gestion of any foreign power. But 
It was said, that' if a power should 
make an application to nave an indi- 
vidual sent out of the countiy^ and 
that application were (Esr^arded, it 
(the foreign power) wouU be of- 
fended. Again, he would only say,, 
that no instance of such applications 
had occurred. R w^ also allege^ 
that the act had the effect of discoU.- 
raging aliens fix>m coming to this 
country, because they knew that they 
would derive nb protection iVom the 
laws, but would exist here only by the ' 
sufferance of a secretary of state. Ba 
thought that when foreigners found 
that durii^ tke last two years, onl^. 
one individuall had been sent out of 
the coimtry who had reaorted to the 
threats of assassination and suicidek 
their dread of the powers coAfidedjb9j 
the secretary of state would be ipa«. 
terially dimumhed. He would, (low- 
ever, refer to facts to provethatthee^, 
had been a progressive inqnaase ini 
the number of foreameraanriviiig^iiirfci 
to, and re^dent in, tois cQua^tr^ since 
1818. [Mr. Hobhouse aaid ^aerMat' 
the table — " Thatis owiagiDflh»oir>r^ 
cumstances of the times.'*] 

What the hon» member aaidwaa^ 
pafecdy true^ and h& (AIs^FeelKwte « 
very glad of tb§ adB^issioa*. Tic.: 
circumstances of jtt^tiIn^iMle4to«■ 
a great resort of strangev to England; 

and 



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PABUAMBNTARY DBBATBS. 



and be lejoioed iimt this^oounftfy had 
afforded them en eajrhnw In oo 
angle iiistuice had es j den 1)eeii 
rerawd permiBsiQn to eater Baglend 
on aooonnt of the domestic tfoubles 
ia whieh be had been engaged in his 
own eouatiy. (Hear*) No inqtniy 
was made respecting the causes whkb 
induced aliens to come to England; 
but the portals of the ooontiy had 
been thrown wide open for the ad^ 
nitfion of all. (Hear.) In 1821 
the number of aliens residing in this 
covBtry WBS24»000 ; in 1822,22,500; 
in 1823, 25,000; and in 1824, noU 
urithstaading aU the declamation 
which had gone forth on die subjeot 
of the alien act, the number had in* 
creased to 26,500. (Hear, hear.) It 
WHS said, that whatever be the in- 
teukd enereise of this power by the 
^vemment,* still it was liable to 
abvse by being used as an engine of 
menace by the subordinate officer to 
whom the executicmwas entrusted. 
He denied that it had been with bis 
knowledge 80 iotntttsdy nor would he 
«ver consign the exeieise of such a 
measwe to subordnate a^ta; and 
be would dedare, that in no oaee 
had the representation of any indivi^ 
dual Tcspecling aliens been attended 
to in the manner siqpposed 'for the 
last ten years. The powets of the 
net were reserved, if necessary, to be 
applied upon the reiponsilMhty of 
the<mini8ter on public gprounds, and 
not upon any indiwdial authority. 
He. pledged himself, as secfetary of 
slate, for that mode*of applying the 
proviaons of this act, and no other, 
in former discussions, it was said 
that the bill was unfidr, inasmuch as 
it plaoedall aliens, of whatever cha- 
noter, or of whatever duration of re^ 
sidenoe< in the country, upon the 
same footing. 

He iMt.the force of auch an aigiv* 
BMlBt,andlHdk«iideaveaiedto xmnowK 



it; for whiob purpoad he meant to 
inopoee, Aat all aKens who had re- 
sidn for the^ last seven yeaisintUB 
countfy should be exempted fiam 
the opesation of the InlL (Hav, 
hear.) Ibis exemption wouU^ he 
believed, exen^ at least 10,000 per- 
sons firom the alien act (ttear.) He 
hoped that this would be deemed an 
important akeralion l^ those vAo 
were opposed to. the details of the 
bin as It originally stood; and the 
introduction dl the clause of exemp- 
tion to which he alluded was a jpsoo^ 
that however erroneous might be his 
Tiew in proposing the renewal of this 
act, at least it was not with a wish to 
possess himself of arbitrary powob 
(Hear, hear.) He had hitherto oc- 
cupied himsdf in removing certain 
objections which had been made to 
the measure; but in removing them 
he by no means considered that he 
had furnished exclusive reasons in 
suj^xxrt of such a bill: on the ooi^ 
trary, he admitted that the power, 
the contitauance of which he danhed, 
was extnoidinary— -^ntt it was noial 
-'-that it was in principle a new 
measure, and one which did nni be- 
long to the esUdilidsad law andpn* 
licy of this country. (Hear, hear.) 

He was bound, therefore, to -gine 
some proof, not onlv that tibis was a 
power not foiriy liable to-abnae, but 
also that the nccessi^ for .its enaofe- 
ment preponderated, beyond die 
value of die principle irom which it 
must be considered in some degree 
a departure. It was, he knew, veiy 
difficuk on such an occaoon to ^iwe 
what mieht be called mathematioal 
proof of die neceantyfor the measure, 
and of the precise amount of danger 
arising from the uncontroUed lesi- 
deuce of aliens in -this countty. He 
coidd declare to the house, that he 
^sas perihdily satisfied, frem all the 
' -^ ' wlncb bieofie^«is«tioB 
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PABLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



235 



enalilttl ham kk mka^fnm bII tfie 
infomiation irliich ifae pcesrat cir* 
camMneMT of £um>e afforded-- 
ftom 6fi9fjf vMm wliiCQ his fnoBt nift«* 
tared obmvatkMi could suggest--* 
that if this powsr wtre now with- 
di«wn,^ree months would not elapse 
before parliament and the oountiy 
would nave reason lo veg^ that 
abandomaent, »id feel thensekes 
under the necessity of resortmg, un- 
der the emeigency of the occasion, 
to some equally sunnnary» perhaps 
move severe measuref for the attain- 
ment of the same ol:ject. There 
were in this country at present, 
26,500aliens: ofthese nearly20,000 
resided in London. The ordbary 
number of aliens resident in the me- 
Ifopolis was of late much increased, 
by the trotd^led times upon the con- 
tinenty wludi had aider various eir- 
cwnstanecs, and in consequence of 
Ihese teoabks, augmented within the 
pwj s en t year the number by at least 
1,300. In allucfeig to this latter 
augmentation, it ivas unnecessary 
for him to say one word which was 
calculated to give offence to the most 
Bident and enthoaastic lover of li- 
berty in this or any odier country. 
It was, however, probable, tfutt 
lUBong the ahens who had recent^ 
armed and sought an asylum in this 
country, were men of ardent sptnts, 
warn feeling, and excited passions. 
Did he complain of such men ? No; 
he rejoiced that tins country was 
able to afiford ^lem that asyhnn 
which'-their condition required, and 
as long as they used theu* domicile 
here m their own peace, and safety, 
and subsistence^ so long, he hoped, 
would they receive an hospitable pro- 
tec^on. (Hear, hear.) 

But was it unreasonable for the 
government to say to sueh men, 
^Wegtve^ana^hanhere, and 
wfaila we ^ve it to yon, 'and secure 
to you the peace and repose which it 



is caicukled to afford»sok>ngweare 
cntitied to expect in return fromyov^ 
the o b serv a nce of peaceable conduct, 
not calculated to distmb die policy 
<ii this countiy, or coumiit it clan- 
destinely with foreign powers?" 
The insuhr situation of this country 
afforded many fecilities to perturbed 
i^Nfits to forter tmd prepare their 
machinations against the states iiom 
which they may have emigrated,— 
was it right they should be permitted 
to concoct or mature such puns here! 
—Was it right they should be permit- 
ted to take such hostile st^ towards 
powers in amity with England - the 
country affording them an asylum — 
as would, of necessity, disturb the 
neutral policy which this country had 
judged it expedient to maintain ? Was 
it right that such aliens should be 

Suietiy permitted to arm themselves 
>r future experiments upon their 
own governments while reposing 
under the protection of British law r 
(Hear, hear.) He would suppose 
the case of an individua} who had fled 
from his native eouniiy,and obtaiiied 
an asylum in thn, availing himsetf 
of thefocilitieswhichwere l^withtn 
his readi, to plot against ^ ooionial 
government of a nation with which 
Great Britain was in sunity-^was it 
flt that such a person should mrire 
London the place in which he was 
to erect a machine to disturb the 
country from which he had escaped, 
and to do so by violating the nc^ce- 
M demeanour which he was Dound 
to observe in the country which had 
received him ? Was the case he sup- 
posed an imaginary one? No; it 
was not fancy, but fact; and circum- 
stances of which he had had occasion 
to take cognizance warranted him in 
stating to that house, that this coun* 
try was selected as the spot best cal- 
cdated to be made the scene of such 
BL plot) fbr disturbing anoAer govern- 
ment 

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PABLIAIOENTART DBUIES. 



MRiat did the nuoitlerB ofv^hk 
oounkty do upoiv- tile dMeotecy? 
Tfaev saw the pnnie&-*^4iiiB^areBiind<' 
^ them^ cf the exkteBee ^of tfae bHoi 
act, and of its poweis,' aad warned 
them agaiutiiattitig'giniieniiiieilt l» 
the unpleaBantr neoesntf of enfinv^ 
ing tbem-^they took the mildest 
ooinse-^^icgr did not aend • the path 
ties out of the coontiyv hot they ftcv^ 
rected their condoct by- proper /le*- 
iBonatianGeSy 8tieh(«ui he had ' dee*- 
cribed (hear, hear) ^ and infonned 
them» that however willing the 
govenmient alwajns was to affoid an 
asylum 10. foreignerBy it oould not 
fensat that eheker to be violated by 
being oonveited into an ojqiortunity 
for the indu^noe of their own poli- 
tical machinfltioDs, and for effecting 
through this country tibeir own po£ 
tioal objects in the oou&tries from 
which they-came.' Was that an un- 
reasonable Ttetum to ask'for the asy^ 
lum a£Soided ?- He was not awaie 
diat any odber topics remainad for 
him to touehupon in the present 
discussion. It was his iBtentioB to 
i ike renewal of the bill for 

Tsame peiiod'as was proposed last 
year—nauKly, :for two yean, widi 
the -exemption upon wlach 1^ had 
ailieady touched of those alaens who 
had resided for seven yean in this 
oomtiy. HetiUBledtirat, ooasider^- 
inif thegprear lesoit oi forsigDei» for 
wnoh tus coaatry. was* remaitabte, 
and the neeessity'of • cukivaliii]^ all 
Inst and jptopornseansof preserving 
the BurcL OK' peaoe^ and not disturb- 
ing that system of- neat^i^ which 
was the best cakidated to auantain 
so desirdble an objectr-^^he* trusted 
that upon all these consideradoas, 
the house would iiot be unwilling to 
gianit the government the renewal 
of theblli m the manner which be 
noposed*- He concluded by moving 
for leave to bring in a bill to con- 
tinue the alien act. 



T^f qodriieBi^Mog piMjAniBLitfaa 
ohatv^ «;'»', • II . • N \, ' ' ,t , > 

Mr. Hohhouse roae^and lanm^iHi 
the neceaBity hewasundeDoffoyMr- 
iog the rigli honourablfr'gatlcttsui 
everthe beaten tackwhioh he had 
lamented, he wasihimself under liba 
neoessity of possuii^. Before he 
didsG^ however, heicould not help 
nwinding the dgfat hoaouiafale gm^ 
tlemafi now, as he,had ;done .tno 
years eaoj^ that there were many in^ 
dividufus in the. house of oommonfl^ 
who did suppose that when he ^Mjw 
Fed) hadenterednponthecarawof 
one ofthe first cainialeisQf the cnown^ 
he would have, abandoned the >»- 
aewal .of .a.niea8ure» which,: botii 
here and on the oentiBenty^waBloQib* 
ed upon by the best friemiBof raliaik* 
al liberty, by those who weoBt seek* 
oned the gfuanhasiB of fveedom, aa an 
utter viokudon^of the piinoipleB adndi 
oi^ht to regulate dio QHmaw^nt of 
a tree nation* Theiig^hdiiouiabltt 
gendeman had said^ tfaatihe was 
afiraid of wealing ontthe^houas^ sa 
trespassing upon their patience^ iHiife 
ho iQoapSubted the a iymw l s ao 
often used in S!]|»pQst*of misibiUc ht 
(Bfr» Hobhouse) entertaineddiffsicat 
apprebensiens from those* expnssad 
fay the ririA hcmomaUe gent£aBuuii ; 
forihe^amer feared that his<fineiMiB 
who ^surrounded him, weaoed^eut 
by a lon^ and hopdess defonos of the 
oonstitution of their ooantry^-»a oo»- 
stitudcm the validity of whii^, until 
these late times* was Dciver doubted 
•^would beooBie dispirited in thor 
pcrsevcraace to Of^oaethedangeroua 
ci^ne of the eraodon of a»abaolnle 
mimsia in this ooqntrr (hear^-ya 
minister invested by pazliameait widi 
the power of telling any man who 
toocned what was often oaUed << the 
sacred soil of Britain,*' «« You shall 
depart at my will and pleasure, for 
h^ you snail no loqger find an 
asylum,** This was the engine and 

the 



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PAUiiMBNTARY DiBATES; 



237 



te pnooipfo wiiidi 4ie aadliiB friends 
irere almost weaned out by fnndeiBly 
(Hear.) • w . t- 

iiiittft-sG^;lbi^^Q»ey/lhoii^ fae 
mi^-be deceived^ ttfaatri it nvasTim** 
dsmtodd^iii0t>finam1faftrTiglrt honoar*- 
ablB igendetnsii' dpfmits; .iMili^oabt 
tHnly fiotn oneof tecdUeagaea^in 
tbeJc^iate-af fastsmoD^ dialato 
tfait ytar tiiey veee to fasar no .mMe 
of these odicm and ^oonstitiriM^ 
Boeaaaieb HieobacrvstionuBs^ised 
ferthe purpose of diiaiiMBhing jtbe 
opMMiftioB 'to the* bill, and it Indite 
ctteoL Indeed^iashe came down 
this very nif^ht to Il» boose, he was 
infonnedyby wtal he deemed to be 
vsiy eood. axithority, that it <wa8 only 
kftenasdta propose theienewal of 
the bill for one year inalead of two« 
He had hr>ped, theiefoie, that the 
billrwastobe pefnitted to die the 
death wlnoh best befitted il>^>-tfaat as 
aotbuag^eouUbe-so jmodfciEk, .an 
tsone shouU bei affosded that as 
htlle 80 possiblaof^the bad against it 
lAouUnowbe •reitented'^lfaatlih^ 
were to be-left qnedy to see the<eDd 
of tfaat/wfaich never engjhttelHpe h|d 
a bfginTHmg ; bat be ^yond ha 
i^Mitfkpn. , iit' was, oa the 
oneskioiiy oBfteridioalenB taprelfod 
not ^Ibia bill eooU^be df any real: vet 
tsudie coabtay^.or oonU beany )thing 
else tfaaao^staMs wdi.oaleidated to 
eodfiwDid tbe efaavaofcerof tfae.people 
-with^that.of their /gevemment, -ioA 
fnogidown, in thenundsofifoiei^ 
JOB^ that odma vnon^bB^oaB^ which 
the other ooriKtueae bo suffered to 
bear^ ft vrabted die 
•iiste^iigkls of hospitality^ and 
traveosd the pcactioe of antiqiaity, 
siUoh* mBMf M not .^ukf ix» 'Teowve 
tibese^who wcrexsonqueredy but these 
.wbowerewctonoBs/' SodeoidedwBs 
he^ife his opposi^B toa hiM fiauf^ 
iwith io>^aiiich cviU/that he .wqSld 
r uw.of i aU: aiK.fonH/.of ilhe 



house to tpiefsnt it again passing 
into ft^kww (Heac) He.woi;dd«.fi» 
8ach:& pnutieer mot^ the^aothoiafy 
e£'ari^th<Bi(NBnfiie gsntteasMi op- 
posite /< (Mb Wym) •; wd when he 
aliiifed to'thafc^rightibcpouBafcUe ^os* 
tlEflaanlsiOOodaefejonth&pHft^ oo« 
eaaiiMi^ and odfOtrastidi-it.mlh the 
past( heineaBtnattoDppQBs-pieseiit 
vistae^to- fonner .'ful]figs;tfor> such 
idaey must be in th»Eig& honoorable 
genAleman's .estinnfte» or .eke he 
woidd not. have cfaangad his <aaiiti* 
mentSi But the sight hoaounble' 
gentleman was vepectodto hnvesaid 
mthe debate of 1816, that '« to this 
bill be would .oppose his physical 
force, and bodily- Tesistanee^' (A 
hHigh-) 

Those were <the • nghti Imxw . gen^ 
deoatan's f^^oetedwords '(hoai^>ead 
they were ifiioted last. yesr^ and left 
ancontradirtedt^ The. jight^ faonnnsr 
aUe gendeman was :pn^b^» afavnt 
atthetioaie, hot etgentkni«BifillinR 
his plaoe in theiigovenunseat; could 
nevep be away from. Iu8*aeat» without 
haviBrsoase friend .reaiainingiy . ^vriio 
oould have afiofded faim Ibe means 
of cenempnis ^i^ nistataqeiitvUeh 
attrihuled to- fahn 
dunnghiaahsenfie< Heihsmfoffefolt 
anthooBsd, oaithe present oocnskm, 
in <assQmaDg that the words <meiie cos* 
rectiasiiepofrtedvanMhto point .out to 
the seooUeolaott ofithedght^ honc^nr- 
aibfaegenlkmao^ tfaeiazgvusent.whioh 
he tl«s.iisedy in ^^lodbanitiion tto' the 
y stewhkh be waa alieid« ,the..ri^ 
hpnownble gaitfleiQaabOU]ie>dowB4o 
give^n'the present oocasiDQtt. * Before 
he didaD,.hoiimrar,he wodld'<admt 
-toi^the ooiBBe;pisrsaedtby,.lhe^inoTer 
.efthenrcsentbilL. That eight. hfv 
ji<smAitle.geBdeanBn#n^Mr.f eel) had 
.sxpteined'toi tfaeoiT-wrtrbati.haii «uii- 
iMtunately heaomejprorevhnUy no- 
.torions-yHnaooely^i.the powesL which 
•raiusteiaieoiiidiwipldainder the mr 

thority 



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tse 



PABUABIBNTAfiY DBBATES. 



tlioiityof diie bill. Ue, (Bft.IM>^ 
bouse) liouUi not enter into ihe 
discunxm of these poweis* fcrfais 
objections went tn iimine to the prin* 
ciple of the bill itself^ which went to 
nv>vert the foundation tqran whichthe 
Bntish oonstitutaon rested* (Hear.) 
And to do 80 for what purpose? 
For a paltry and base oom^niance 
with that odious system which bound 
Europe *<to perpetusd change." 
(Hear, hear.) He detested this sub- 
serviency ; and he knew not, if it 
were contiaued, to whom the people 
of Eax^fe could look up for the final 
punishment of those who had dbown 
mmselTes to be oawoithy of that ' 
dominion with which the Almighty 
had intrusted them for wise pur- 
poses, bvA whidi they had converted 
l» gross ase& Although^ if En^and 

Siued her policy, the sufferers im- 
dus^tyxamiy might hanre to wait 
^kmetimefwtiieirTetribution, yet 
still he would fnedict, Ifaufc if the 
nght hoooiirable secretary did not 
Im to see the day« his jiMcessoiB 
oeitaittly would, when his govem- 
ment wo«ild repent. the incessant le- 
newal of this odious fttt, which bound 
Great Britain in a eosnmon came 
wi& tyrannic sovereigiisagaiDBt tiieir 
oppsen^ people (hfl»r)'HWveretgiiB, 
mo weie unworihy. of the success 
which had unfcntunately attended 
their, schemes, had who had* de* 
TPWEed* (Mieiyyroiie, in their xapap* 
ciofus system, emy free state which 
had opposed iheir base dominion ; 
and who would ao dodit oondnde 
theiracts by endeavouring to subvert 
die liberties of that country which 
they had made the dupe of their 
piactioeaL 

The right honourable gentleman 
had alluded to what he called the 
ancient policy of this country, and 
in doing so hskidiallen into the thrioe^ 
jefuted bhindftis of otfaeis vHid had 



provkw sl yemhtthedtn the same liiie 
of ugmnent^ and had qooted Imm 
magna eharta the words ^* mid ojile 
prohibiti fiuanMf* referring them 
to some previous law, and fbrgettii^ 
sir Edward Coke's explanation, that 
the words did not refer to a law, but 
a mere declaration of counciL So 
that really the right honouraUe ^gen- 
tleman had by h& Uunder feUen mto 
the same pit which had beenahead^ 
nearly filkd by so many of his pre- 
decessors, {k. laugh.) The right 
honoaraUe gentlenoan, too, ibr^t, 
when he talked of the menhatKl stran- 
ger heme only alhided to in ma^na 
chariOf that at that period there weiw 
no i^demen tcaveUing the grand 
tour m these countries, and that the 
wmds ^* merdiant strangecs*' cooap* 
prdiended every dass of persons who 
ooald be found in the country. The 
right -iKmoufdhle gentleman oo«dd 
rnlly make litde firom the fHecedent 
idiidi he feimd in the time of JinuT 
iV. Every body conversant witn 
histoiy knewtihat there were, he be- 
beikved, two cases in that reign oi 
the nature aUudedto; bat did not 
die iiigfat honourable genttewan 
rieoolleet that in the reignof Henry 
IV. diere was, in &ct, no law in 
England ? He need not, surely, be 
told how the power of Henry IV. w«s 
exercised. There was a disputed soo- 
cessian-^foreiffn efforts inakin^ in 
finnour of Ri<£ard IL— 4he long's 
will and order was the la w .' o v a r y 
thing was tmsetded, anda spirit of 
violence was abroad. 

Sui^ the right honouiable gea^* 
deman must know that that vras no 
time in which to sedk for a oonstitn^ 
tional precedent, aixl mint, from fab 
erudition and knowledge, have felt, 
when he was quoting it, that be was 
pressing an unpaktoue propostton, 
byaigoments which he .must have 
known to'fae nnlenaWeJ (fies.) 

The 



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ThdMXtdite befaadouotedTRni 
kitbBlfaelhiie of quKD^lixabelii; ' 
but he lbrp>t Ifaat tfaen diem wu 
apfochmttion tssQMli^iistScotcb- 
meB. (A laugh.) There was a 
oountiy within ihret hundred and 
seventy miles of the British oouit, 
which the queen looked at with grreat 
jealousy, and governed hy a prince 
who, though heir to die British throfie 
in one sense, was not recognised 
by queen Elizabeth, who rather 
wished Jaones to understand that he 
was to look up to her for die suoces- 
aoB more as a godsend than an in- 
hentance. Thm were in that i^ 
fldso great filreign efforts making m 
Spain fcrthe overthrow of the Bri- 
tish government, anda strong paitry 
ia England ready to act ibr the re- 
storation of the catholic fiiith. There 
was, dierefore, no parallel in the 
oases* Looking at the suooeedinc 
reigns, he saw no precedent ; an3 
ythokigh lie radier d»i]^ James n» 
was a better tynmt than James I. , yet 
wfaen the revocation of the edict of 
Na^es oocmed, and this country 
was 611ed widi an immense influx of 
ibrsignen, who ded from the reli* 
gioiiB tyranny of Louis XIV. James, 
now known to have been a toman 
catholic, although ^Nod by Louis to 
imdermiae the British constitution, 
and having e^iy motive to act fasv- 
dlely towards the refugees, never at- 
tempted isuch a measure as the 
MMit. (Hear, bear.) The right 
honourable gendeman (Mr. Wynn), 
in his speech in the debate of 1816, 
had ms4e a powerful use of this ih)(^ 
and pointed out thatduringonehun- 
dnd and mxtf yeara dieie was not 
die least proof of the crown*s aa- 
soming die exercise of this power; 
and he had sqpdy mioted die morti- 
fication of ChailesIL,who, on find- 
ing a foreigner take particular liber- 
ties widildB tlGmuiite, the dndwss of 



BDrtttanodi, and finding hinMelf 
compelled to the ntghdy penance of 
witnessing these feulihaHties in 

Sblic at the theatare, inquiied of 
i minister if he ooukl not proceed 
in a summary way to get rid of the 
offender, was informed that neither 
kw nor practice afforded him the 
power of gratifying his inclinadon. 
(Hear; hear.) 

Those who recollected or refenned 
to the arguments used in the years 
1792 and 1793, would find that no 
attempt was at that time made to put 
this bdl on the basis of preoedent 
On the contrary, it n^aa admitted to 
he quite novel, and only justified by 
the extreordinay ciroomstances of the 
day; and Mr. Burke had said, thai 
*« if the crown possessed such apow^ 
er in time of peace, it wouldbe too 
mat for liberty/' {Hear.) Aaid 
kMd Qrenville, at die same time, 
said, that the measure was «*only 
justified by die emergeniy, and by 
self-defence." Inde^theririitho- 
noovable genlleman (Mr. Peel) said, 
last year--and it led to a remark 
from a friend near him, dwt die obh- 
servatioQ smacked of the right ho- 
nomable ffendemaa'to readende in 
te sister kinedom ^a hmgh), -dttt 
tUs bill was jQSti&ed, eidier««bya 
temporary or a pennanent necea- 
sity;" and in die same uncertain 
phraseology he had tiJked this night 
of offering «<mathematieai proof;** 
but he had left the argument widioat 
even offering moral proof. He "(Mr. 
HobhoiBe) woidd, however, gi^ him 
something like matfaemaiic^ proof 
that the bill was wordi nothing; for 
how were the returns of its opera- 
tion ? Did they not absolulelyshow 
its pitiful nove^ ? In 1816 there 
were no aliens sent out of the coun- 
try. In 1817 diere were count Hb 
(jmm, his son Eaoanud, and one or 
two oCheiv* In 1818,. tfaeie were 

two 



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j^A^j^i^m^i^if^ j^ 



tjiFO ladie? ^ a J?reQcbip«u Jbk 

oiheiB, ]^ X820|»>qn .Jn IB^li 
none : «oi^ ii[i .1S2;J ; aiii ti^,l§23^ 
acount, (wit^ $i vaiie^>pf nm^ tbj^ 

BouT^leffentleiiiao excke^^opo^i^ef*) 

jWieto» wd a,4ew Jwelliog lw(lfa^ 
and geojtlemexi> the ^tpf^^cfuois^u^. 
tipQ was to have it3 panqple . so»r, 
pewied Ibr^ the. anpoystoce of a few> 
helplesd and iicmn>tected foreign w*, 
(H^.) The nghtjbon* gei4^in^^ 
tebd 8aid» th3( he would Qeyensubmit 
the execution of this bill to subordi- 
nate agents. Whataecuritywasth»« 
in that precaution? Were not general 
warrantsprotected in the ssLme niao- 
ncari Was it jpot said that they were 
onlv.issuiidVy tbesecretaries or state? 
ai^qoret thev w«xe.u1tiinately upset and 
abandoi^ AOtbei^ause. tbe^ were 
palpably rab^ur^^ but beduis^ the, 
poweswhi^tm. assumed w«s so 
liable lp abuse».tbat it could no lon^ 
|;ei:.be^tole»l;ed> Ige w a a yto p ishgd 
in the present day, that .any minister , 
oouUjbave.the ftioe to proposes con-^. 
tinpance i>f such a jpieasuce^ afiei ^- , 
repeated ix»denmities wUqh p«udi»-.. 
ment h^ been^ called 4;pan»'-pec^ ; 
saioly called upoip^ to give diQsi^ who/, 
h^iil (sceviously^^x^dsed. thk |x>wefi. . ' 

ho^ps^ver^.asi&fted thfit^epoUqy of 
Eoglax^ WW stiUrtOsafiaxdaJM^lum^ . 
to 9$f99ffaii, ^ tbat, they foigfat ; 
ccmie here. and. xeceivf^ pcotectioAr-.. 
Why.tl^|W^AQ)grvtQ,gv9^iildl9l-t^. . 
enqjteroi; oi^ Moroceo. bad lately. 
avQn^ histeadinoss^^. yield Ax Aie. , 
Spw»ish ^^fees who were necpuffd 
to <|uit A Bntish >coLony-HGrihEaltar. • 
— in ^Mir days* (Hear^heai;). 

While these poor Spai^iaids wer^ 
tofl^ about for days in the harbour,. 
Aqr. received peimsBiiMi to lu^^, 
fnp^ tliBienopeicr of Morocco^ and: 



nyaeived fiponi h?" n > ^l Aat^ hnwitoftfr 
^^,the jn|)it vl^oiiQttiable igefi0»r 
Tn jii^f a y tupff the ^qfedit of dcdaoi^ 

meienitimaft iThe-jaBesenl bill .was 

ff^f^s^^^m^i^m^i^ w«d«* 

l^,b^|ip))r^)§ ^<|,,j(famed.rfpenf| 

Csir h Jlbmm^^^^ ^ f^^ hieiped^. 

hpwi^^j tfat.»yh^,qi yd.i6c« ri (m, 
WfluM n?it sf^y^/from jj^iirob^ 
im^afoj^ ^ ,ipfd«9i€aU:r> ;ba4*»ii4 
irneooncileable.tQ thie.9nti^}CoqN^ 
tution. .^UnTfimh) .V4^mg9hi 
vaejoi Soi |ia .^ontinuanQS .now iweiroi 
tQlecated, it would apply fos it«fpcir-« 
manept «^ati|i6[9(i untiJ^.^as-jthA. 
attorney-general, foi, jceland {Vbu 
Plunkett)- had said last 'ye^;tbe^diM . 
mop. of r^vohitioa oojuld bQ Ja^.and^ 
driven ^ supposed) into the .Red: 
Sea*. Inttey^ar, 1802, the/am^ 
sgjBQ was aecessa^ or aeoo^nt.xkC 
Buonapai^te,; ial8I4, it was nqcw 
saiy. because, of. the re^restablishnynt 
of the-Bourbuipi; in 1816, for a 
sinuMi«asf»n,;{in I8I89 because the 
French footresses were not evacuated^ 
inJ82(V becngse Iprd Lomdondwiy 
said the eleroewte of.neipolulion .wene ' 
still at work qa. the. continent: for. 
pr^pdjad ; rfgpfliy t ^"f Ngf abiaad 
at bom^, it W9S ahvay?. to.jbe. 
tinved^ He .contended, {that -the. 
heme wQuld nake.itsetf an iifioqaw 
phiQe t^ttfaa^caofitntfc^f thaameaaive.; 
No nHQ|,-«t,.all - a o awdn led with 
foTflOgnt politicsi ivould^ pnffead to; 
asseit that <thft2nenibw<rf die holy. 
alUsAoedid net look up^i^ the abea 
bill of Sngland as part and paipel. 
of thfs^i: Awyi«bad oystoB^. Ife was. 
now^peafcingcfasiAjieGtoii whkfc 
he had.himadyP had the beaefil of « 
little {Mnotical «Hiesii«iee. J>Wi§t 
hisj^p^ihttpe.at JiUlaih he Imkes^s 
.. > deavourad 



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PAHLIAMENlPARY DfiBATES. 



HI 



4eft vowed to Tfe^co^ lih Ei^ftlhidin 
from 3the olUprMive' tio^«r'^dr''fte 

iMn, "wmsik aft Mlxk' ^rik, 'fa^ NeiM 

oMidiict olTah Auflbitti'^fllc^,' who 

polil^ly ihibimedthatljy seating it 
» ooflifMdy' tntefOiftptM "the ' £n^ 

BngtIfthiAaU, (mdhig dUit |oItehe^ 
pinldiidBd no efi^ *{^rocMded to ti^ 
nKMifltnte'^ti v«ry ihsultifig langt^ 
with tik vaftaflt Ailstrian. ' Th« 
Aattrinn'did not t^aetit it at th«iiio* 
medl-^fo imMTkhally his •Cdutitty- 
meii dirndl seem fond of ^gfatb^— ^ 
but adoipitfed mich measures as showed 
tlMt the iMiIt had not pMed with- 
out hu notice. He obtained an or- 
der^nr toom Znrioy commanding 
llie Eoglishnian tt> qidt the SGkcnese 
tenitoiy in eight and fbit;^ hoars. 
Tbe'Ef^iahnian came to mm, and 
requested him to remonstrate with 
coont Znilo against this otder He 
aoooidingly (fid BO. On mentioning 
theiabjeotto that noUeman, heim- 
medialelT sot this answer; <*W|]y/ 
yon wonid do exactly the same thing 
under your alien act*' He (Mr. 
RoMiouBe) repHed, ''No; badaswcf 
may be; w« should never thinlt of 
sending a*foreiguer out of our teiri* 
teiry, because fae had desired an £n- 
^MHnan to (ate off his*hat at die 
opehu*' The count appelffed in- 
cndulotis, and in v^tUrn io tiie 
aigutfents which he'hudiMedfor his 
ooonttyman, merely said, *< The air 
of the IGkaese wfll fNeve unpleuK 
asat to your Urieisd'-'he wffl enjoY 
Ma faeahu muxh better in ^ BmA 
offtaly.*' He oould piovuafr their 
bar* if indeed proof were necessary , ' 
tfaut-simikr t re a tme nt Isad beenex^ 
periepced 1^ several of eurcoun^-^^ 
men in yurious paitsof thoeouMent; 
ml hadalw^fsbee&deibndedby the 

ne sort of argument The alien 

[1824. '^ 



bHi wd» iiil\yay$'4u<^t^ dofence of 
aQy^oeipfeasiW''meam]res takisn asain^ 
^k^h^en. It wasonly in the aii- 
tdmn of 'last year, disit an English 
giehdemlm Wte'stbpped b^^thep^ce 
at ttome, -who was traTelbnk towards 
Gtdece, whK ^ passport of Ab. ae- 
cfetafy Cantmig. He linmafiatd^ 
iteic^, why he was stopped? Ht 
wsis told, that there were aome indi- 
viduals whom it was determined not 
to allow to travel in the Neapolitan 
stat^ or, indeed, in* any oAer states 
that hafd been recently disturbed; 
and that of those individuals he was 
one. He remonstrated against this 
decree, stating that he was merely 
intfansitu to another country.* But 
his remonstrances were inirain, as 
his name was placed on ifae ifst re- 
served for those who thou^ proMr 
to espouse liberal principles. He* 
cited this case' as a proof that dieire 
was a detemftnation amongthe mem- 
bers of the holy alliance to estabfishf 
a general system of eUropesin poHoe, 
to make our home secretary, if he 
wotdd condescend to the task^ one 
of their runners, and to employ him, 
not so mudi in persecuting the sub- 
jeciB of their pai'Ucular states (ukw^k 
ne woukl show that even that Imd 
been done), as in ftarnishii^ them 
with a pretext of harassing such' oi 
our own subjects as avowed pvind* 
pies Obpesite to theirs, and happen- 
ed to oe rending in their dominions. 
It Was said that a measure Mfae die 
sdien act was rendered necessary by 
the aic^vity of die revolutionary itio* 
tion with winch ^nope was -at pie* 
sent infested^^hatlhBt Action, like 
Archimedes, oAly wanted a pou jSo 
toerrisble it to overturn the worlds 
and that it was most unfitting t04il* 
low^lHo find thtft pUbce in a country 
lik^ our own. Now he put this ques- 
tiott'to the right honoutaMe secretarf 
— ^whether Ite was moat afimd at th» 
moment of the people of Europe, or 
Q the 



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PAfllMMBNTARY, D9BATGS. 



the powtTrof Ibar Ufftijom^^dee^oto ? 
H« gave th« right bQnow^e sepr^ 
tfi^i a)9dit t>r feanDg the despotic 
and Boooaidiial spp rif^ A>f ^^ tyjnmM 
o{ J4iropei9MchiK|Or^th90 )dbye lib^r* 
^.^irit of their >op{ae^ad. sulgect^; 

and if he.vra^oineQtii^thfftppin^a 
he thought that ^ wan no. li^ the 
inters than the dutyr of im ngbt 
honourable gendemaa to change the 
policy whidi the countr3[. {or s/qvpi^ 
yiaan peat had .been pursuing, and to 
shov the allied soYereigos, peaceaUjv 
thcH^ distinctly » that & aanr throi|^ 
their desigps, and vas no longer difr. 
poaed to give them the support and 
countenance of England. (Cheers.) 
For his ownpart« he had hoped, that 
when the right honourable gende- 
man felt iniuielf in fbll possession 
of the poweiB of eovemmenty be 
would have adopted a new sykem 
iqpon this particular point, and that 
be would not have continued to com- 
promise the national honour by a 
naae servility to the wishes of the 
allied jnonaiois. The right honour- 
able gentleman migfat depend upon 
it, tint if we continued much longer 
in our present track, it would not oe 
our allies, but ourselves that would 
suffer (hear, hear) ; for no state that 
compromised its honour was ever 
long able to maints^n its interests. 
(Hear, hear«) 

He was dad to find that in the 
papers, wbidi had been recently laid 
OB the table, the right honourable 
gentleman had dedared his deter- 
mination not to suffer this unbo^ 
combination of kings to extakl their 
principles to Uie provinces of South 
Amenca. He had now another op- 
portunity of abatrading his country 
nom the yoke under which it had 
been for some time placed ; he had 
now an opportunity to change its 
policy with tefjaad to them, ^st of 
all by disoontmuing die alien billy 



aad:tben by xepfaling the foieig» 
enlistment bilL By taking those 
measures, he wou)d shov/ wm that 
a new er^, ^d arrived in the policy 
of Gre^ SriW- We had not itipu- 
lated-T^at least be,wa^ not aware that 
we had. stipulated — ^tp cpntinue those 
bills so long aa their continuance 
should be &manded of us. He 
knew» indeed, that they had been 
introdu<»d ^to parliament under 
certain arrangements, and with a 
view, of fortbering to a certain extent 
the plans of the boly alliance ; but 
he. would. ask,* bad not a great and 
singular change taken place siAce 
that time, not only in their }mnd* 
pies, butalso in meir proceedings ? 
The marquis of Lonaonderry had 
found himself compelled to disclaim 
the prindnks whidi they avowed at 
Troppau, nefore they proceeded to 
maicn asainst Naples; and the ri^ 
honoun£le secretary and his minwter 
had remonstrated at Verona against 
the doctrines which Uiey piomid- 
^ated before they commenced their 
mfamous asgression upon Spain* 
Supposing, however, that they bad 
not rooken a word— supposing that 
they had never ventured a.syllable in 
juBofication of deeds which caused 
the blush of shame into every manly 
and ingenuous countenance— sdfi, 
the deem, themselves would be suf- 
ficient to induoe us to some chaitt;e 
in our line of policy. Sufficient* <£i 
he say? .Bid irishmen in that 
parliament, in which liberty was yet 
able to elevate her voice* and in. 
which she sometimes ^ke in tones 
that astounded and alarmed die ty- 
rants of the world — did Knglishmen 
want any excuse for either proposing 
or advocating such measures as weve 
calculated to promote their own free- 
dom, and akmg with it the general 
freedom oi mankind? Was there' 
any man who though that the allied 
sovereigns 



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soyefeigns would date to remonfitrate 
with the right honourable secretaiy, if 
he should propose to give up tte 
4iien bdl bow and- ibr ever > No t 
though they ibi^t feel Beolely upon 
the subject, they would tteref daretd 
utter a woid in the shap^ of remon- 
stnnce; they would onty seetl^ 
thdr conduct had taught England to 
detest their desi^s, ziid io foHow a 
^tter and a wiser pbKcy. ' (Hear, 
hea*.) 

He therefore trusted that ifae r^t 
honourable gentteinan \^ould show 
the holy alliance that he' would n6 
longer be even considered as their 
accomplice. Ihe British govern* 
jonent oi^bt to be like Caesar's wife, 
beybnd suspicion, both as to its in- 
teitial atid its forei^ policy. The 
present bill afif^ed its character in 
DOth relations ; it affected it in its 
internal policy, because it did away 
with that ancient constitutional re- 
gulation that no man's Hbertv should 
be placed at the arbitraiy will of any 
minister, responnble or not ; it ai^ 
fected it in its foreign policy, because 
it furthered the projects of the holy 
alliance to leave no resting-place for 
the sole of a freeman, no asylum in 
which he could exah his voice 
^mist die abettors of tyranny; 
(Hear, hear.) 

The honourable gentleman had 
asked whether he ^i^tild allow the 
aabjects of otl^r states to plot in tlni^ 



because! they mishtbfcJiaiiDe eo». 
spiie against the tyrants of their 
country. , (Cheen.]f To be afiraid 
of the plots which the jp^Ie weie 
now fohning against tbeor tyrahti^ 
and not to'be a&aid of those which 
their tyrants were executing aeainst 
the pe!6ple, <fid not, in his opmioa; 
differ much iiom fearing the she^, 
when you are not afraid of the mni 
(Hear, hear.) 

He had frequently heard it said up- 
on the continent, that the plan of me 
holy alliance was to terrify Bng^d, 
if they could, into acdng as thdr 
friend, and then, if they oodd not, 
to cajole her till she acted as their 
dupe. The government had now 
the opportuni^ of showing that band 
of conspirators a^nst iSe dignity 
of mankind, that it wouhl neidier be 
bullied by diem on the one has^ nor 
cajcied by ihem on the other-^tet 
it would <iisoonnect itself peaoeablj 
and for ever, from all future paitici^ 
pations in thekr projects, and that k 
would seek its own interest, tranquil- 
lity, and gloiy, in ^firee, liberal^ and 
independent policy. (Hear.) bire&> 
commending the gotemm^it to puiw 
sue that course, he was not seeking 
i.0 Create any new system, but mere^ 
to bring bade the old-'-^hatByrtem 
under which our ancestofs had Iked' 
free, and under which they had dis- 
tinguished themselves, not only as 
the patrons of liberty, but idao Bisthe 



country against the government of generous dispensers of it to ofiieM; 
""'""'' He wished the house to t^oos^ 
wliether it wotQd have itself ^nr 
sideM as the accomplice of' the 
holy alliance, or as th^ patten and 
champion of general liberty ; and 
with that view he shoidd oonclude 
by moving a resolutbn, which a«th« 
same time that it wonld enable him 
to place his own sentiments on re- 
cord, would enable them to make 
the choice he had mentioned. (GteaC 
applause.) 



theb own. To this ({uestion he 
would reply — **Ye8, he wotdd.*' 
^fCheers.) He might be toM that 
in using such language, he wa^ 
ising the language of the convention 
of 17d3. But he denied the f^ct 
He was not using its langtrage, or if 
Jie was, he was only usdng it in com- 
mon with our brave and high-mind- 
ed ancestors, who would not allow 
the liberty of strangers to be invaded/ 



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PARLIAMENTABIY nEBATBS. 



-appfanae.) He then moied the fol- 
kmh^ resolutions:— 

<* TMft this home is of opinion, 
thai the aiien hill is a diagnceio the 
,8bitx]te heok, and ihot to ranew it, 
. either petmanttitly, or £>r any period 
however limited) would be h^hly 
einjuriouB to the dMncter tmd ii»- 
lereits of Englusbmen ahioad, «nd 
. d e rtiucti f e of the priDciples of their 
conBtitntion at home. 
.. *« That this house moreover, looks 
upon the alien bill as a badge 
of servility) oonnectiag the British 
•goveniment "with the league, impir- 
ouriy miscalled the hol^alliaoce; and 
•Hue house having witnessed, widi 
horror and alarm, the monstrous 
'mreasions of that alliance on the 
.f^tfs of individuals and the inde- 
pendence of nations^ will nereraane- 
tion a measure by whieh the £a- 
-^h nation ma^ apjpeav to make 
ooBDmon cause with the abettors of 
tjrtanny against the victims <^ per- 
seeotion." 

Sir J. MaMtUoA rose thus early 
on thepreseal occasion, because the 
state of his «< physical force'' was at 
present such as would- not permit 
him to wait for a later hourin whidi 
to address the hoase. The right 
hon* secictaijf who had in tro duced 
this hill, had putforth a defence of k, 
which he had eondntled with much 
rdeltferity and no iitde conciliation. 
•He had made great iseof a figure of 
speedi called ** euphemismus'' by 
grawiiianans««Hi figure which ecu* 
SHted in giving agreeable namokto 
aubeinMea thalin themselves were 
quite te revesBe. He had never 
heard a man deeeribe absolute pKwwer 
by more pleasant diounyoctttions 
than those which the r^ hon. se- 
cretaty had that evening used ; but 
unfoitunatdy he could not fiv his 
Ufefiyrget, that thoi^ this absohite 
power might be fairly exeicised-^ 



though it mig^ only he exeidsed 
over a small number of individuals-^ 
though it might-nevei^ be abused to 
•unworthy purposes^ it still wasdieek- 
lute power, and therefore qii^t fm 
to be intrusted to any imhviduaL 
(Hear, faear#) It was ipainliitfy 
iikK>me tOi him, b6th la pointr^x 
j^vsieal force, and of menfeiilaaBik 
tade, to faavebeen oUigedfor the laet 
ten years towehis opposilAon to an 
alien bilL In such a sitnatioa, the 
mind g^ly laid hddof any ciroin^ 
stanch iriuoh showed that the m«h 
aition which it hfKi- dinefaod had not 
•heen> altogether without. some. effect 
.npoB the discoasion. It was satia- 
fadory to him to see that the clause, 
for whichhe aaMi others had cooteMJl- 
ed in vaiain 1816» ¥ns now intnH 
duoedbYminiatemthemsebw; and 
he should be consoled to theaidtof 
his life with the reflect* that he 
had thus had sbme dhare in. with- 
drawing 10,000 out of 26,000 indi- 
viduals fipom the absolu^ and arbi- 
traiy power given to4ie government 
by this odious . and inmolitic bill. 
AB tothemildtt^ with which it bad 
been exeouted* he would merely ask* 
did the house supppse that it woidd 
have been eaeeutea in the same mUd 
manner* in. case Its operati(m had 
not been sabmilted to me q|i^d scm- 
tiny of .pubKe men •? (Hear, bfm.) 
Had not that fieidscirutiny lendieraa 
the membem <H gn^WEoment carefid, 
not only of tbC' manner in which 
they exesoised it, but also (^ the 
manaerin which their inftnors did ? 
£bd not the discussioiiB, which al- 
wiqv atttoded'OB aiich aonitinv, 
also ptodnced their effeet, notei% 
in mitigating the exercise of the 
power mich the bill gavci but a^ 
m mitigatingthe power of the bill it- 
self? HetheKfore thoMghtthat mi- 
nisters had no right to employ the 
mikl mauiei in which the bill had 

been 



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been carried kito eitecution, bb an 
argument fhr agam fequeKing the 
bin to be pasm. (Hear, near.) 
Referring again to the ai^gmneoiv^ 
Mr. TiBel, he observed, that that right 
faononrable gentleman had employed 
another fieore of speech a litde loo 
often in && obeeriationB which he 
had that night addpessed to the 
house: the hgnre to whfdi he al- 
luded was that of Ajfsteron proieron. 
He bad answered the objections 
which he bad supposed mieht he 
made to the measnre, before ne had 
saidooewordin explanation orunDse 
of the reasoaabknefls of it it was 
incmnbent upon him) as moiwrof 
the bill/to hare saidsomethn^ in 
hcfonr of the advantages which it 
would confer on the country ; or, if 
ic conferred no positive advantages, 
of the evils which it would endble 
the countiv to escape; but upon 
ndther of these topics had he ofiered 
a single observation; not a word on 
its a^anta^es,-^no, nor even on the 
necessi^ which might be supposed 
to dictate it He hs^sai^ however, 
that the bill was not a deviatioaftom 
die andent policy of this country. 
That point he, perhaps, ou^t to 
leave the ri^t honourable gentleman 
to settle with his right honourable 
ooHeague wdosat near him (Mr. C. 
Wynn). But he wotsdd not do so; 
he wonld ask the bouse^ allowing all 
the casea which the i^ht honourable 
eendeman had quotra in fevour of 
his argument to be correct, what did 
IheyamoonCto? That in the course 
of 400 years, there had been only 
fiv« acts ot aibitraiy power commit- 
ted upon Che aliens who had entered 
the country, and that, too, be it re- 
collected, before the formation of the 
constitution-— before the period of 
anything like a constitutional admi- 
slistration— before the commence- 
ment of that period from which 



alone it was safe to takfe any judicial 
precedents. (Hear, bear.) Did the 
light honowable gentleman Imow 
how many precedents there were for 
tiie issuing of general warrants? 
There were above 100, and those, 
too, not in the barbarous days of 
Henry IV«, but beginning with tho^e 
of Charles II., and continuing down 
to flie time of George III., when 
lord Camden, to his honour as a 
judge, dechoed their illegality; 
sanctioned) too, by lord Chathann 
who ecjually to his honour as a peer 
of parliament, condemned theruse of 
th^m which he had adopted as a se- > 
cretary oi state ; practised, likewise, 
by all his predeoeaaors, from the re- 
volution downwards, without their 
legality having ever been disputed., 
(near, hear.) It did not appear that ... 
any of the five cases on which the 
rij^ honourable gentleman rested 
his argument, had ever been decided 
to be law. The first of them took 
place 400 years ago ; then there was 
a leap of two or three hundm) yean, 
wfaicn brought them to two cases in 
the time of queen Elizabeth ; then 
two more in the time of James I., 
and fiK»n that time downwards ** ip^ 
fidmum silerUnun.^* The.same v^ 
guments which the ridit honouraUe 
gentleman had urged to prove ji^ 
existence of this prerogative in the . 
crown, had been previously urged 
in defence of the right of the crown 
to levy ship money, and to dispense 
with laws— questions, of which one 
had brought the monarch to the 
scaffokly and the other had <iriven his 
son from the throne. Thejudgesof 
both periods, resting upon some 
stray instance in bad times in which 
l&ese prerogatives had been exer- 
cised, deci<fed in fevour of the mo- 
narch against aU the sacred princi- 
ples of jrovemment; and by so doing 
betrayed the governments which they 
served. 



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Bonredy aiid diiO^ed them both into 
Che abyss of rui&» (Hear, henr.) 
He hela at that moment in Ua hand 
an opinion of an eminent )awyer, 
taken in 1792» as to the fight of the 
-eioim to leftne admiesion to alkns 
into England. He shonkLikot vM 
it to the hoose, but shoiildl ondikie 
himself to statias its^ substance, 
merely asking the oouae to oonsider 
nivhat SOI* of lawyer heoi^tobe, 
whose opinion \ipq\M be of the 
greatiest weight dhen men against 
Sie ciown. First of all— ought he 
not to be a person whose fedings 
were not \n favour of the people ? 
Then, ought he not to be a pmon 
whose bias was strong in Butouf of 
the crown ? Then, oa^t he not to 
be a person whose learning was un- 
disputed, and whose knowied^ was 
unrivalled in those early penods of 
our history in which the prerogatives 
of the crown were shaped into form 
by the interposition of parliament? 
Uavic^ described a la^^er of this 
description, he knew that he had no 
occasion to summon before them the 
ima^ of Mr. Sergeant HilL That 
distingubhed lawyer said, '< I am of 
opinion that there is no pren^;ative 
of the crown which entities it either 
to expel foreigner horn the country, 
or to refiffie ^em admission^ into it 
All prerogatives rest on the common 
law, and Sie common law rests upon 
usage; and ao far from the usage 
being in fiivour of such a prerogative, 
that there is even usage against it; 
as may be seen in a statute passed 
in the 3d year of Henry Y*, enabling 
him. to exclude certam subjects of 
the duke of Brittany from tlie 
country." Now, he wodd ask the 
house tf> consider when that statute 
was passed. Was it passed when 
the king's power was weak? No ; 
it was passed in the same year in 
which he returned victorious fiom 



-ij^ineouit^ aiad^iiiwhiob the emperor 
of Getestny came to visit him, on 
the plea that he was itiie greatest and 
bravest hero of hift i^. Let it be 

1 reoolleoted that this- was not his qM- 
nion, ** non mens hie sermo;^* but 
llie opinieu of Mr. Seigeadt Hill, 

' who iifas not a deoiaimer, who was 
not a revokdonist, who was not an 
inden&ary^ who was not. even » 
Whigr (Aki«h;) The right hon. 
gent had mor***'* It mattered little . 

' vhait^ the prerogative of the crown 
was, stncq it hsi^.vX present nopower 
but that which it received, fiom par- 
liament" . If that were the case, 
why did the right hon. gent contend 
so strenuouslymat it was not an iono- 
vati(xi in 1793 that had placed the 
king^s sulogects in a (bfietfent situa- 
tion from that in which they were 
placed two centuries ago? Aftes' 
such an admission, he thought him- 
self entitled to lay aside aS fuidier 
legal eonsideration of the ^ubyect 
Another objection which he had^ to 
this bill was its extseme liability tor 
d^use. He left out of oonsideiBtion 
&e promises which the right ho- 
nounible gentleman had made of 
the future, and looked only to the 
pest; and he saw tiiat under this 
peace ali^i bill, nine persons had 
oeen sent out of the oountry. The 
war alien bill, it should be observed, 
was essentially difierent from this ; 
and those who had voted for the 
former might, with perfect consisten- 
cy, vote against that which was now 
imider consideration, because it was 
a peace alien bill* It gave to minis- 
ters the most absolute power over all 
the foreigners of the kin|^m« who 
might be deprived with impunity of 
the privilege of the habecu cowpus 
act, and of the blessings of trial by 
jury. This act placed aU those who 
visited our shores at the mercy of 
government, who might, at a mo- 
ment's 



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nenf s aotke,. and inihoiift onfloibg 
TUkf fOBOfliy send'owt of the king- 
daat everjr forcseneii ^di^> pleaiedL 
' Buttbbn It wm&A, ^tThi»>po)Nier 
Ittskng^eBnted,^ and hais>fii9««r bem 



Tfaeargtitnenii, tfaenytanatoidiis ' 
-^fhkt aitmnuy ftower n^ hi to- 
lerated by a^BsitBhiliiitoe)X)f 6qhi- 
DMOiis, ptnmdcdit'iviaB not^enUed into 
actbh for fUwortHyriin^Oses.' (ii^, 
iMafi) 'Sudiiui'M^maentiirasmore 
dangevoQs, and/if it ^were perdfefteied 
in^ \v«Kdd, ar leiigth, piodBce the 
effeel atstted bgr 'B&. Biivke^^^^ie be- 
lieved' in Ids apeeoli ai Bn8t(il^-t*wfaen 
he 8814 ^' i believe ^ite diaU all 
ocimetotbink,at ladt, mthMr^^me, 
that am absolute mooarcl^ is not so 
bad a thii^ as we supposed" The 
right bommUBble secmtary said, in 
dttende of this measmie^ that no 
■person had oompluned of tlie alien 
mil : but the answer to this was, that 
' >tbeopaation and constitution of this 
bill placed a forei^er in such a si- 
tiatiotithat it was impossible for him 
effectoally to make his complaint 
(Hear«) Supfmse an Italian, or a 
Ennohman, suddenlysentoutof this 
country, and landed (m a distant 
shofe. How was a person so situa^ 
ted to cause his voice to be heard in 
the British parliament, *or in the 
cabinet of Inland ? (Hear.) He 
admitlal, diat the fiee ddbatesi, and 
the feaxless discussions on all great 
pidl^ic qnestioi:^ in a popular assem- 
bly Kke this, did tend to prevent the 
evils winch might be appiehoided 
fiom vbttrary measures such as this 
confessedly was* Butwhat was the 
ini»eiice tb be drawn iiom this ar- 
gument ? It was, that they ought 
to pges erv e inviolaite those free prm- 
oiples from which their free in8titi>- 
tions had emanated: it was» that 
they ought, on no account "whatever, 
to tolerate a prinerple of an arbitrary 
nature; it was, that they ought to 



Mjoet ^verypnoedOBit <af this k»d. 
He knew ft might be Saidr that avbi- 
'dnry power, ^ava tor the ^govartmHnt 
:aB'4ippottunily «f acting with a de«> 
gree of promptitude^ Miich, uftder 
ikt^^ ftrrmsr-fif d lindted moaarohy, 
^ike •cov^mmeBti did> ^not pottess. 
Bit iwhaixwte the effisot of suebaigu- 
^WBOtal Let tlK house mark the 
nusnUevousrooinequente of soift- 
• ^ning down ioid explaikiing away ^he 
Upprehensicm which were natetfafiy 
Mt at the existence, in any dbeqpe, of 
arbilzaiy power. Was not the effect 
to lessen oiir honor at asystem whkh 
shouhlaJwayB be reprobated? . Ttet 
was the end of all such argumeHts, 
although, in using them, hedid4iot 
mean to impute to the ri^ honour- 
able secretary that he brought them 
forwaid- with suck a sinister inten- 
tion. 

When die]r were told that the ex- 
ercise of arbitrary power was very 
convenient in one instance, and, in 
another, that it was extremely mode- 
rate^^when they heard these specious 
statom^tB made from hour to hour— 
they at last incurred the daaiger of Ibr- 
getdng or giving up the great prin- 
ciple, that the forms of a me govern- 
ment were absolutelv necessaiy to 
check the growth and counteract the 
force of that foimidable power, 
which, when once admitted, seldom 
failed lo go on in an increasing ratio. 
Would the right hon. secretary^ or 
tiiose who supported the bill, con- 
tend, that the midnight police of 
Paris -^^ that thedarksystem-ofe^pon- 
nage whioh pteirailed in' that city, 
was better tlum the |dain open and 
manly course uAiicfa the Brkishoon- 
stitution recognised? Doubtlesslh^ 
would not; and yet die present bill 
proceeded on^ that secret prmoiple. 
Some allusion had been made to meir 
friend the em][>eror of Morocco; and 
he had heard it said^ that the reason- 
ing with which this bill was sup- 
ported. 



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FABffmiWV^y .iWBAIES. 



pofte^t would jib^ Middl^iiex 
m a levet witti Morocco. Now* 
he would contejiid, tlua if, 4)iinpg.a 
perioc| of sevek yeais, a fo^^ni^T 
acted with propri^.m. the kingoopoi . 
oTMoroccQ, ^nd .if il ^o }^^^^jsned 
tint a virtuous ban sat 9t that tame oa 
the ftrone ojP that kingdq^Tr^ia pfost 
extravagani suppositioa» ,,^ t.^^ • 
which fe on^ used t)y iWjf. of aKu« . 
inent)— he wouU oopt^n4» .that ^»t . 
Ibkeigner would he plaoed lA.pte* , 
ciaely the same situation in Moi^occo^ 
as that in which» underthe pjovisioJE^ ; 
of this bill^ he would find himself in, 
were he to come to En^and. In 
either case, he must , trust to the ibr- 
beMnce, the humanity, and justice, 
of thef person or persons having in 
thrir hamds tlie absolute power of 
ba^hinent They might use it if 
th^ pleased, and as they ]^eased. . 
The, wanderer ha^ no protection or 
wectititf from the law^' wnicti (fid not 
sptead its shield oyer him. He might 
be mibjteted to the visitation of ca* 
price— he mi^ be assailed by the 
nand of Iniustice-^^and where was he 
to demana redress? 

Sued a power h?. would not intrust; , 
to' any^hands. ' If Marcv^ Aurelius. 
sat on the throne of Movecoo, he 
would oppose the exisfeenpe of such . 
an. iMitraiy authority^ as much as . 
when he saw it placed in the hands, 
of th^ baibwian, whatever Hs nsgne 
might be, who now governed that,, 
cotibtcy. (Hear.) It was to the power 
whidi he object, and .not to the 
p«»ori by whom it was widded. 
Those Who used the stale and com- 
mon aigUhients in favour of this 
m^dstrre,' to whiph he had so fre- 
quentiy alluded, were, in fact, weak- 
enSng the |rround8 and removing the 
biuts' on nditch all free governments 
mnsr be erected. It was not because 
those unfaitunate people ^ho came 
witJhin the scope of this bill were not . 
expelled, that he objected to the mea- 



sqie, butboQause they wit^ beiex- 
pelled by a summiay prooMS ii4» 
govemment tbougbl wl lie rnxnttt 
confess that he hem with mamm^be 
aigufnent.jfchiit dus powsf faadjMt 
been sibused^advanced so stoenmowly 
andsofmquently. Tbebotnefli^fat • 
restassu])^^ thsAnp^ftwnMiiQnterar 
tolei^lad the exercise of- aribitiai^ 
pQy«r,i,wftboqthy»gtfae ftinndrt i an 
for.&M^tj^mi^v ft fm Ik weak 
aiginne^ to. p^mi^ ,to the yiilttca of 
thoBt i^io fit any tii^ff wc^^ intiwsted 
with ,tii9(hDimdc4. aiithft r it y . . Veiry 
of^n tbe.w«^ meq fluooeededthe 
best, as if fo show that their hffUiag 
this power coi^d not ccNiduce to any. 
bejB^Gial €^; «9d ppsBiUv that 
their vQiy vktves, had wvCH^efil,. 
by reconciling th0 people^, in die - 
firat instance^ to aajautbariti^ which* 
had it fiOkn into «|her b|ods» Ihty 
would have resisted* . . 

It h^ been said to the ens^efor 
of Russia, that the beneficBBce m hk 
character stood in the stead of a 
fixed coniBtitutfton for hia fMiple : to 
which he was reported to . rave an- 
swered^ in a manner wUch doubt- 
less benefited him» but wfakh did 
not coincide with bis (sir J* Mn^ 
intosh's) notian . of the mrtlcr — 
** Even if wtott yau . say is tffiie» I am 
ov^ a hapw aoddent*' (Now he 
(sirJamesMaotintosh) abouUl rather 
have said, <* an unhappy aoeident,'* 
if his benieficenoe of cnancter fain* 
dered the Uuaeovites firom doing that 
which would effectually pievent un« 
hai^y aocideniB in future*— if k pie- 
vented them finom establishing a li- 
mited sovereignly^ and vrinxfaew 
their attention fircun the formation of 
free and liberal institutions. (Hear.) 

Mr. W. Lamb^ after adveHiog to 
the policy of this country from the 
time of the reformation to the seven 
}reaiB* war, during which entire pe« 
nod so little favourable was she to 
the indiscriminate visit of fbieigners. 



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% 



that ber pmi^dt^'WA'io&^tM' 
the pMMmltt of BliK^ ^fti^ all 
tbe oidioUcs <»# BUmpi^ ^i^M^ed 
lo lybsnm* Aiaf llM>r4^^'iikd4ii»- 
toiicBl aqgutttfixt^ H^tfiJi 'th^ Ind 
hMd in^ttte votttW '<)i^%)^'^bni^ 
faad^wy Utile 16 dcKHfithi'tfte t^ 
nwritskif 'CbS4q(ttiMl»A4'> tl»^ ai^- 

. .'^^ ^ j;iW»sri'ctf'pt)14tkAl 

y-ifAa^ wimiht^ dtiMsd 
ritcitiiuttiCGfdBs' ^ and) of 

aaalogi^y 'ttoii« >w«ite ^ 06 IMe 
inipiMAanoe^'^^>4Mh«' wm ao HMy to ' 
be l^iUadoDi,' flb ffilMrical ansMgiea ; 
beouiae^' ^by ^Mcrititi^ txhrtkiiar 
ev«nlBt bf '<topreciiuftftg' pietrticular 
ponttis and «|ujt^ cCIh^, 'a «^' 
louring nigtatr'be gtmi to atny caae 
wbu^'mSetk eituttkked^ would be 
found incorieoU TheboiL tnemb^ 
for WeflilMBAt«y liad taken' a vety 
lai]ge view of this qtKfltkm; and, in 
the mmw, <yrhiaBpeeeh» he bad been 
ea oe ttdi ugl y iibeftu in eenmring and 
leprobalhig the continentai govern- 
meiifeB as not coming np to ms ideai^ 
ofliberalify. 

Now he begged leave to aeik, look- 
Big «t (faepieseat sittM^on of Europe 
— lamentdig as much as tbe bon. 
g en tl eman conkl do, that civil and 
rebffioiB tibei^^ not ilotirish as he 
ooaid wflh it^ (and he undoubtecQy' 
wiihed tte every nation should ob- 
tain libefty^ suited to its own habits, 
manners, tsid cbaracter)«--7et he 
wooM ask, whether the present situa- 
tion of Bufope, degraded as it was 
described to be, should be attributed 
to the ambition of the' continental 
kiag;i» to the wickedness of their 
ministers, or to the impracticabie 
desifSDS <^ that veiy liberal party who 
nowJamented over the evils by which 
the continent was afflicted ? (Hear, 
hean) Surely,' those who wished 
the people of the continent to resist 
the measuies of their governors. 



OJifgtkVib khow, ttta to ^i^pt^ re-; 
lieve a oountiy from arbitraiy power^' ^ 
witli6ut some chance of success,, mi/s' 
in f^ a folly. France wa^ it ap- ' 
peered, one of those nations^ tne'[ 
government of which ought to be re-:> 
pr^AKtted, as narrow and illibeval i', 
DUt he would demand, whether tb^^ 
kingof France, prejiidioedas he must ^ 
be, and feeling interest for that . 
party who followed him into exilct •' 
who attached themselves to his fa^ 
maty, and with the recollection of 
wfiom every thing kind and affection- 
ate towards himself was connected — 
he demanded whether that monarch 
did throw himself so wholly and en- 
tirely into the arms of that party, as> 
to exclude the. approach of evQiy ^ 
other ? He asked, whether his al^- ^ 
tempts to form a moderate govern- 
ment were met fiadrly and houes^ . 
by the opporite party > (Hear.), Jak , 
asked, whether that party did. not'^ 
combine against the government ? / 
(Hear, hear.) ' j 

Under ^ese circumstance^, what . 
codd the Khg of France do ? He 
was placed in that situation whi<^ 
Mr. Fox had de^bed as the mo^ 
difficult of hls.-^Iitical life ; he was 
asked **to throw every thing into^ 
thb hands of an enemy, raidier than \ 
make th^ least ookK^ession to a friend.'! ., 
, Why, then, should censure be cast on 
. the mg of Fr^ce ? W^y 8ij«>uld 
all the continental soverei^ be re- . 
viled ? He saw very great ingonve-* ,, 
nience, as the probable consequence , 
of such a system. In the first place^ {' 
it might be observed, that there wa^,^ 
no courage in it. ,' (<* Hear," from.^ 
. the ministerial benches.) Did .gen- 
tlemen charge them witti inca|;^^ , 
for the government of their states?^ . 
Did they charge them, on account of , 
the power which as sovereigns w;^ 
lodged in their hands ? . Or did th^, . 
. chstfge them , with the . manner in ^ 

which 



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PARLIAIKMTAMr DBBAYfiS. 



whkfatbaiF coiiployed «Liiditfedtfa«t 
power? (^H^haar/' from the 
oppoBitioii benchts.) He would «dl 
gendemen tint tyranny waa not to 
be fomidiiiinoiiaxishiti; alotie. ISwy 
would fmd thadt Tepiiblkft«««fov«i«i- 
•meiRs ibdnded on the demoorasicil 
pcmctpldJ^tthoigb perinm less ty- 
nmnous to their own subj^ots, faod 
been guilty: of as great aggressions 
against surrounding states as mo- 
narchies* (tiiear») 

In his opinion it was not wide 
thus to ixijare and asperse the cha- 
racter of those soveic^ns. Such a 
oourae would peifaaps force them to 
commit actions of which otherwise 
diey would not have been guilty. 
It was saidl^ kard Clarendon, of die 
first eari'of PMsoMMith, dot >« find- 
ing himsdf trtnted fass handsomety 
thaahedeserfedtobey beoBBueless 
careful to avoid such condaotasde- 
mrved digfat treiAment." And die 
same remm miehtpeiiiaps be made 
with ref<»enoe to the allied sove- 
reigns. At s^ events^ before any 
- attempt waa made to stir up ill fo^ 
. ing, and excite iinsurrec6on» those 
. iii£d wished toms^Buch an attempt 
o«gbt to oonsiderwhetherthey cbidd 
do vote 'for those peiBons on whose 
passicMia they wishied to woric, than 
tofgiiwdism adiBBec, afewtonts, 
a certain- portion of' vic^nt speeches, 
some fowdi^usand pounds, and an 
• ineOcientTOteiadiiahotise,' (*^Hear, 
> hear," ft^m the miiisteral benches.) 
This, he believed, was attdiat had 
been done for a people^ manjr of 
whom'iirero now dmren into a miae- 
nble exile. (Hear, hear.) He was 
friendly to this bill, because he 
thooght that, in matteis al all con- 
nected with foreign policy, it was 
move necesstty to give extended 
pciwers to the government, whatever 
it might be, tl»nincases of anordi- 
naiy nature. From its superior know- 



to^ and'more (^mfdM aio<]ulm(it- 
ancewid&die foreign rdiationsof a 
coontiy, it was fitting that gretdser 
powers should be given to a govern- 
ment, witli reference to any measuK 
tat bote -tipon its fot«^ pc^icy, 
diaii in any odier ca^ ^Kf^ever. 
Rec<)lleclirig that sonae' indtvidoals 
hsd ttfeought proper to ihterftM with 
the intemai conoems of ^foreign 
atates— re<k>ll^ng what had foUea 
from the light; hcmoUrable seer^ttory 
for forei^^ ailkiiii, as to tlfe policy 
which tiiecabJ«i^ of Endiand wish^ 
to pars(ie-'--and i«coUebtin^ that 
thofewas ^ evMent disposftion on 
the part of '9(ttne persons in diis 
country lo • tnix diemseives up widi 
the afraars of foi^ign poweis—ft di^ 
position', he dewfotid not, which arose 
ftom 'the' noblest motive, frob the 
warm love vrhich Eikglishmen bore 
to liberty, fWmi that supembundance 
of talent and activity which -so emi- 
Mtttly distineaished this oountry-^ 
disposition 'vSiidi he admttted Co be 
praiseworthy, but which was not 
therefore the less dangerous, the less 
embarassing to thiff ^tounliy, or the 
less onfensive to foveign powers— 
foding very stron^ron these pointa, 
herfiouki vote for lAe bill as a proper 
and necessary measure, ^ear.) He 



did so the morel 



t)ecaiU9e he 



believed that the right Hon. secretary 
of state for die fot«ign department 
would tfeever countenance any act 
that was calculated to ttonish die 
honour of his <y)mitry ; and that he 
would be as far from giving up any 
prmciple which appeal to be oene- 
ncial to mankind, as aay minister 
that ever went before him. (Hear.) 
Lord J. RusM said, it was with 
extreme surprise he Ind heard the 

rich of his hon. fHend ; because 
whole of that address was totally 
hostile to the spirit of the British 
constitiitkm, and utterly subversive 



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PABLIAMBNTARY OSB&ATBS, 



asi 



of that freedom olspeediwhipb^tboy 
ranked amongst their most valued 
pcivil^eB. (Uear, hefff.) Tb^ were 
told hy bis hoik friend^ that those 
who spoke of the holy aUianoe^ or 
of the allied, sovereigns, ought to 
speak, of th^m intineasiiredctermtf^ 
they were UM9 that it was ndt wise 
to oSen4 them» ^ that per^nal 
vonarks m^^pyoduo^.. unpleasant 
effects. (HffW, b^ar.) Buthisbon. 
friend, who .thought it ncit right to 
insdjt t)Mser«^,¥i^fire atthe head of 
armiess had inp ; oompuneftion in 
blaming the unfortimate Spaniards, 
who wese now reduced to a state of 
misery and distress which ought to 
have eiauated oonlltli^^ration9 ifnot a 
noUec feeling, (fieeact) He would 
ask whether there was ainy man in 
that bQus^ wbo b^eved tbot the io- 
dignation of tbe Spaniaids was roused 
hv yio^ntispeechea uttered in or out 
of this bpus^ ? (Hear, bear.) And 
yety bis faon. friend had represented 
that to be the manner in which the 
Spaniards wo?e excited to insurrec- 
tion. (Hear.) It was a ocNaplete 
perversion of fects. (Hear.) 

He had spoken lately wifib one oi 
those imfortunate, betrayed, .txpa/- 
triated Spcmiards. Hesaid, << It was 
the lovetof liber^ tl^ seduced me. 
I was not moved by any of the 
speeches of tbe.time, some of which 
were perhaps made from feelings of 
vanity* No, it was the speeches of 
the good, old periods of the bouse of 
commons that inspired me ; and I 
could not help endeavouring to se- 
cure, for my country, the same pri- 
vileges ^hich you enjc^, and by the 
sam^ means wnich suooeeded so well 
in England." (Hear» bear.) His 
hon. mend bad tauntingly asked, 
** What good do your dmners and 
gifis do to liie Spaniards?'* He 
would answer, ** We would do more 
if we could. What, however, we 



bftvedone, wda^noi^e wi0i dM in- 
tent to excite insurrection, or to pro- 
daoe a. re^lutionaky w«ur ; but as a 
testibmonv that there were some hearts 
^amonff /thfe people of England who 
-cheriabedthe k)^e of liberty in oom- 
* man widiJlll ihe free'SOols who were 
.acatteied iiivi^ 4be l&ie of th6 learilw" 
(Hear, beoA) ': ' • 

Thui much be would say, in de- 
fence, of-those wikO ware^accused for 
what they had donOi in respect to 
Spain, and for what libey had said 
against the holy allianee* (Hear*) 
He wished now to address mmaelf 
briefly to the question before the 
.house. Allusion had been made by 
.the right hon. gentleman (Mr. W. 
Wynn) to the events of the year 
1793, when our own cdnstitution 
.was thieatenied, and when*, to snf^ 
port that constitution, the alien act 
■ was passed. In 1816> though the 
same case could not be made out for 
.adoptmg sbDQi]^: measures^ yet it 
mi|^t M said, and was said by lord 
.Londonderry, in delenoe of the biU, 
that the revolutionary sprit was not 
.extiuguisbed, and ikmt.it would-be 
improper to part with the anchor 
which had secured us fi?on thestncm. 
. The bill, bowev^r» was only raoewed 
.foff two years at that ttme^ wfait^h 
<■ proved that it .was only intended for 
-a temporary purpose. (Hear.) It 
'was wnat was tamed in law **«» 
.exception*' to die general policy of 
.the eountiy. It' waa sapponed on 
thesKmndofemergencY. Nowlie 
womd tiy 1^ piesent bill on. ihifr 
principle of emergency. > How was 
ithe oountiy situaft^^ Sfa^was in a 
. state of profound peacev The go^ 
. vemment of Franoe, whidi was send 
.to have wanted support in I8I69 was 
now perfecdy established ; and Spain 
bad foUen before the holy aUies. 
Yet the right hon« president of die 
board of control, who. opposed the 

biU 



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PAId:lAMEl4TARr WEiijifS 



bin in 1816/ actually finds reafions 
for supporting the m^ur^ in 1824. 
(Hear!) The right hon. geiit said, 
•• Let us endeavopt to, ^resetve peace 
with other cotftitrJes." ' And the 
condition he" laid down w^, '*< hot 

\0 alloTf .^^^'^^.t^. ^ f ^p^^ ^^ 
irevoiution, mischie^Siis ,to' oftier 
states ; an<i not ii6 allow plot^ and 
conspiracies to *W carried oh here 
against our owhi government,' by fo- 
reigners." Now, did he pretend 
that we ihust employ spies to watch 
the conduct of every foreigner, and 
to report his observations to the go- 
vernment ? If he did, it would be 
&e exercise of a most hateful ty- 
ranny. But the right hon. gentle- 
man did not want to know the pri- 
vate aflaiis and private oonversatioiis 
of all the foreigners in the kingdom : 
he did pot, &e the French police, 
acting under the instructions qJP their 
government, mean to employ spies 
to fiud but wberfi a'gentteman*6 car- 
'riage was ^ipg.' Bi4: if he would 
not do this^ mark ' the situation he 
was placed in^ The French govem- 
ment^ wh^h it collected any mform- 
ation. would saiv, ' ** -, We have been 
apprised, through our 6wn channels, 
'that certain reyok^t^CMiary conyersi^ 
tions have .taken 'place in cptfee- 
houses^ but you never inibnned Qs of 
'them, \ytat is the use, then, of 
, cajoling us with your alien act ?^* 
5y passing this bill^ they did, in 
'fact, give PTreign' powers an oppojp- 
]tunity of interfering in the concerns 
pf this oountiy, by calling them to 
act up, not piily to the specified, 
bift to the implied powers wliich it 
cont^Q^.' The provisions of this 
,^ "bill invet^ the government with an 
* absolute power, andsuch a power he 
detested. 

. He knew ' it might be sa^d 
' that the free spirit of this country 



would prevent diat power from beings 
Abused ; but he feared, on the other 
hand, that such hwv were calcidafted 
to corrupt and* d^^troy the ft^ spirit 
of OHrf^oonstittrfion. (Ikar.) * 
' Mr. Hi Hutckmson couM ' not 
duffer die housci to divide, Avithoofc 
expressing' hk astDnishment at tii^ 
coQCrse taken by the hon. meitabi»r for 
Hertfotdshii^ (Mt. Umb). He had 
not' imagined it possible, that ax^ 
honourable member woidd have hm 
the hardihood to read gentlemen such 
a lecture as that honouniUe member 
had done, because they had boldty 
expressed theit opinions as to the 
conduct of the mis-called holy al- 
liance, who had perpetrated every 
indignity and atrocity against the 
liberties of mankind. The honour- 
able gendeman complained of strong 
language used in die house. WoiM 
the honourable gentleman pledge his 
character to thete having been no^ 
thine in the conduct of Prance to- 
wards the Spaniards which shodd caH 
down the execration of every lover, 
be he who he might, of Hbeity? 

Mr. W. Lamb said, that he was 
'misconceived; he denied any in- 
tention to justify the conduct of 
France. 

Mrl Shdchinson would only say 
that his impression had beeti this—* 
that he diotild have left the house a 
di^raced man, if he had left it with- 
out joining his noble inend (btti 
John RusseO] in reprobating the 
comments which the hon. gentleman 
(Mr. Lamb) had applied to the sen- 
timents expressed by those persons 
who condemned' the late war, and 
who, he trusted in his heart, would 
continue to condemn it But did 
the hon. gendeman tfaiieA: himself 
that matters couM remain as they 
stood at present/ Thoi]gh Spaia 
was prostrate now, was it nkely that 

she 



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TSm^IAHPITEABY DEBATES. 



353 



she ,ivoul4 ii^ WfM^ long ? aod 
if she did, wasUiere any safety, any 
hope^ £v ^ libeitics of England ? 
Tbe hon. gentleman spoke of strons 
langupga He (Mr. Hutchipspn) bad 
Qsed iQs. strong, epjitbeta tixward^ the 
CQodiM;t of th^ holy allifuice a^ wy 
member lu the Jtouse,^ and he de^ireil 
to he considered^ at the then mo- 
ment, as repe^ing every one of 
them.; .and l^ QvHv forhore to repeat 
them (pom a consideration for the 
vahiabie time whi.ch ^e was occu- 
p)nuQe« . He had oyei? and over again 
oaUcd them tyrant^ an<l be now called 
them tyrants once more. 

The hon. member went on to deny 
the asBertion made on the other side, 
that the powers of the alien bill had 
never been abused, or unfeelingly 
a(f)Iied* . What did the lion. genUe- 
men*oppQ8ite sav to the case of 
general Gpnrgaud — was th^t a le- 
nient .dteding ? . Qr what was the 
case of madame Montholon, and her 
childy to make the matter better? 
Qr what should he cajl the conduct 
which was used towards the Italian 
l^ymcian who had accompanied 
buonaparte to St Helena ; and who 
had bfeen refused permission to land 
in England (though b ill health) 
iqpoi^ his ^ltaak ; ^9nd, £vther, when 
1^ requested to be sent to his native 
countiy, had been sent h^y^ i^, the 
north of Europe? If these were 
joBlifiable proceeding!, he was well 
content to take them as sucl^ and to 
siqppose that all the acts done under 
the alien^ bill were just of the same 
character. For himself, however, 
he considered the power it gave to be 
of a most dangerous and detestable 
description ; and should most deci- 
dedly oppose its piDOgress in evei^ 



^kr. fforrc declined, at so late an 
hour« qoterii^ into a long discussion 



imoatbeqwea^, .He\ 
the principle of the bill, and should 
vote against it : hut he' pceferred the 
course of simply. negativing the mea^ 
sui^ ^ voting for tne amendment of 
th^ ihon. . pen^ber for, Westmin- 
ster. ,. ",' \\^' , \ / . ' 

Z.or^.^//Wp thought ib%t nothing 
short of ab^lute necessity could Jus- 
tify the bouse in ,a deviation from 
the spirit of |th<^ English constitution ; 
and no such necessity^ as U seemed 
to him, . had be^n ^ted by the i^ht 
honourable gentlenlei) opposite. Ine 
only reason which he heard assigned 
for.passine the bill was, that we m^t 
prevent plots from being formed in 
€ft»r Qpuntiy against foreign states; 
avowedly, therefore, it was no mea- 
sure for the safety or cpnveiuence of 
England; byt.it the motive, stated 
wa^ the /real one^ why did n^m^tem 
ask' (br ^ arbitr^ury power ?— why 
did tl^ey not come aown at once> 
suid pass a penal law ubpn the sub- 
ject ? He. sh9uld vote' ceitainlv 
again^ 0>^ bin ; ^' for the amend- 
ment if it was. pressed to a division ; 
alth9U^h he confessed'ike woifld ra- 
ther that the^ ^endi^^nt hsd not 
been jp^posed.- He ^j^fee^ in the 
spirit of the ameiidment entirely; 
lb>ut he thought that ^me nfeml)er8 
might be inimical fbit^'n^ho we^ 
^neveithieless disapo^ t<;^.giVe theilr 
'imfes ag^hsl, the ^netru measure. 
For this reasoti^.h^Coi^dhkve wish^ 
rather that th^' hoin. |^ember fi^r 
Westtmihster had decided- to record 
his opinion, of the hol)^ abian^^ in 
some later stage of the bilf^ aik^ suf* 
fered the short qMEStion-^-•^ Ay, or 
no,^^ to hie put in the begiijining. As 
the amendment was nip^, however, 
if it went to a^ division^ he should 
support it 

^ j(fr. Peel did not propose to avail 
lumsetf of the privile^, of ..rejphv; 

' I ' ' . •* 'f V • '^ for 



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PAftllAMGNTAtlY' DISRATES. 



ftir he thought the h6ti. member for' 
Westminster hhnself 'toM scftitely' 
be very danguine ad to the success erf 
l]^ «BM!kidttietot AstM'lioftee'had* 
itself pasKd the alien Inll^ it wotild' 
hanfiy be pei^osdecf to declare its' 
own law ft disghf^G»^ to fhe statute 
book; and it WHS n<3« mubh more' 
likely, upon a'quertidn like the pre-< 
sent, to pftss a r^dtioti Wfth re^oect 
to the hoty ^Httnce which ftilV little^ 
short of a declar^ktion of wsr. One^ 
word tipon the Witifcistns tipon ex* 
predion with wfaidh th^ honouirafblel 
member for Westminster had obliged 
him. The hon. member ol:jected 
to the* term ^ mathematical demon- 
sfrtition," which he had used. Upon 
diiil he would only say, that he was 
sonythe hon. membeir disliked the 
phrtoe; and that he would endeavoar» 
on fblcire occasiotis, to suit his style 
beOfr to thefion. member's taste. 
Bat th^re ins another criticism of 
the hbn. meml)er's, to which, as it 
happened, he could reply. The hon. 
membei^ «Kx;itsed him of ha:me, two 
year» tigoi said something to the ef- 
fect bf ** i permanent emergency," 
beingso good, hoover, to to admit, 
that as he had paiised six years in Ire-' 
laikl, hei might take the benfefit of 
the privilege allowed to natives of 
dtftt country: ' t*^ it Happened^ that 
the Hon. membe^, in his sf^ech (^the 
present evetiing, hsd himsblf madft a 
similar 'mistake, and, what was worse, 
wSK>ut being entitled to take advan- 
tage-of the sEwne excuse; forthehon, 
member liad accused him' (Mr. Peel) 
of having tumbled headlon? into a 
pity which was already quite nill with' 
the carcases of those who had pre- 
ceded him (««hear, hear," and much 
ki^hter) ; and he would put it to the 
hon. member (making use of his own 
ittostration) whether this was not 
most Ixansparently taking the bull 
by the horns? (Hear, hear.) With 



i^>e<l: to th€! 'principle of the bill 
beK)re the house, he would, as he had 
alre9dy said, abstain from going into 
any argibnent At the same lime, he 
denied that it was proposed for the 
purpose of preventing ^lots being 
mrmed iii En^and against foreign 
powers : tt was brought forward im- 
equivocally for English interest and 
benefit; tod he did saydiat when 
we had determined to maintain amity 
or neutrality with foreign pow«s, it 
was not too much to expect from the 
persons to whom we am^rded hospi-' 
tality and protection, that whatever 
designs they might have against the 
states with whom we were on friendly 
footing, they should at least abstain 
from making our capital the seat of 
their machinattona. 

The house then divided upon Mr. 
Hobhouse^s amendment— 
For the amendment, 70 
Against it, - - 131 

Majority - - 61 
A second division took place iq[K>Q 
the original question — 

For brining in the bill, 130 
Again£;tit> .... 73 

Majority - - 57 

STATE OP EDUCATION IN 
IRElAKm. 

Mauch 25. — Sir John ^^ewportf 
in risin? to bring forward the motion 
of whid^ he hsd given notice, feb 
impressed with the great importance 
of the subject to the general interests 
of the countiy. If it were a ques-' 
tion which required any di^lay of 
eloquence, or any ereat abili^ to 
enforce its adoption, ne should nave 
left it to be managed by abler hands; 
but whatever (fifferences there existed 
respecting the mode of api^ying a 
remedy in this case, he was nappy to 
say.tluit there was none upon the 
broad principle of extending as 

widely 



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2&5 



widdy 88 po99pble the benefit of 
education in Ireland In bringing, 
this subject forward, he meant finst 
to, submit to the house what, had 
bedi done in Iceland to give effect, 
to tbe supplication of the wUa^nien- 
taiyand private funds Vhich werei 
d^ned ^r pu^pos^ of education in, 
that country. He wa3 sensihl/e. o^ 
the difficulty of touching a ^ue^)D^ 
which involved the qg^ictix^ opi- 
nions upon matters so delicate as 
their religious tenets ; but he could 
assure the house, that he would care-; 
fully abstain from introducing any. 
thing which was calculated to excite 
the smallest acrimonious feeling in 
any quarter. (Hespr.) He would 
proceed to give a brief sketch of 
what had be^ already done in Ire-, 
laad respeoting education. So long 
9go as January of the year 1787, the 
Insh parliament* five ^eais after it 
had established its legislative inde- 
pendence, on the recommendation of 
the lord Heutenant, appointed six 
ocMnmissioners to see what had been 
done by the charity schools of the^ 
kingdom in promoting educati<m. 
Those commissioneis, m the April 
following, broi^t in a bill to carry 
into effect certam objeots which they 
Teoommended. It was pa^ed into 
an act during the same session, and 
was oondniMd by two other fi0B 
down to June, 1796, when it ex- 
pired» almost without producing any, 
practical results whatever. The sub* 
ject then slumbered for many years, 
and was not asai^ taken up tm the 
year 1806. At that time, minutes 
<^ the evidence which had been 
taken before the commissioners fell 
1^ accident into his hands* As they 
developed considerable abuse in the 
management of various schools in 
different parts of Ireland* he felt it 
to be matter of duty to lay them be- 
fore the then loid lieutenant The 
lord lieutenant, on peruring them, 



tbc^ug^.tfaatacooHBiBsipn oug^ to 

be issued for the purpose ai investir' 

gation; att4.B0Qordii]|gly a bill was 

immediately brought into parliament 

tp authorize thQ .^ppouitment of anch, 

Qommwpioi^. After it had reoeived- 

the asmctio^ pf parUament, tb^ losd 

lieutenant pfo^eadedras'he was em<> 

powered to do, loeele|(^,six commisr: 

sioners, whp were toineet fiv^ other 

oomtDissioneia anpowkted by the cqbh 

missioners for cbarUable donations.. 

These Qommissioners immediataly 

proceeded to examine into the state 

of^e indtitutiona for edu^umin 

heland, and in the course of their 

labours made several v«ry exceUant 

reports on the.subjecL Their 14ib 

report^ which was g^ven in togovenw* 

mentinQotober» J812, wias thatito 

which he more porticwlariy wi|Ae4 

to <adl the attention pf the hi^iiiae* 

The. right hon. gendeman thep.jpa^ 

ceededtaiead sefveiial extracts ftow 

this report* reoommending, th«(t in 

all attempts to diffiuae the bleasii^ 

of education among the people i4l 

Iidand, not merely the reahty but 

even the appearance of proaelytism 

shoiild be ayoided-Hthat. all mter* 

ference with thet religious, tenets of 

any sect .should be> dihg^tly shuor 

ned^ and that.s«qh iostructimi at^ould 

he given toall^ 9$ vaoM eiMble them 

to. ju4ge correetjy . for tbemselves^ 

The repqrt,.he lika^rise st^tcd^ oop^ 

tainedcomplaii^thsdtiA m^ of .the 

schools fo«mde4 by royal <qimM6«> 

oence,. tuition was. fo expensW^ aa. to 

deter ther inhabitants of the^tQWDs in 

which tfiey were situated from aendr 

ing their children to them for instnio^ 

tion. Now as there was a,great dc^ 

sire in the people of Ireland, to job-> 

tain instruction for their ohildren^ 

but a great dislike . to obtain it 

gratuitously^ he tbou|^t that somia 

measme ought to be adopted, . tg^ 

iSD^vr the rate of tuition at these 

institutions less burdensome. As 

the 



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BMUaAMBirrftKVMBEBI^fGS. 



to l^lOW^Lri^feBtik^mamniQfb^m 
Jlbitlfaqr chnpd IbnaooRMb for^dnr 

nUauittedvtar'.ll Mtii|«irn^uiMML 

was uneqinl; balslwfaieW.dMlithflie 
itm a scAiool atl)eny)^8ilfqiori)e& li^ 
finds wUeh pit into lie Inuidbof 
the master dOO/. a year.' It iikraa raiy 
lutt'to thepoUia oompaaies of* the 
city* oi iMOAoti, 16 flay that in tfae 
\iiofth^ Lrelaiid» ivhere their landed 
flfopeityiga^^tiiubiiBflQsnoey' tbqr 
^idMBat atteutionytoj th^ adhiiDaftion 
4if their tetoatiy.: add in tnoled that 
^ emai^irfiich te^hadaetwodd 
JbB> faifo#ed' nvflfcer ••■naaiteiay' aait 
maau^yteinibbttflr (Sakdatod dian 
aajrtedttr %>i^iaaDle^heiialfikre>aiid 
hap|niiefla of ihQ'<'conniuiiilffk' He 
19M siraiie4liak«her«ff3ftBiiduah had 
already tieen'mode to^diftae: kmmi- 
Mee am^ te^peoideel! bdaad, 
lad' beent neared m^ cewiidetablb 
jeakNtty ; but he /wag aor^ that the 

k, wfaea tlieyrhaocileoled tfaettheymlfl 
pniMtBM^ ^lerei pewppmag to gm 
adtKsaCiDii^tott'fmk^ of whichlthe 
BU^ority weie camioi*'! Ifbt mm 
wmaaom to'^do tvecyithiKiiaihia 

Er to eanlA^afld allay liBt )jd^ 
I and ha did aot kaaif^ df aay 
A taott Ukely^aofvodaaeitiBt 
effect (ihaa by ghaar toiaH'tlfai8M>Qf 
ifdandthe laamni^^qoaticii^with*. 
out at all interferiar widi|tbeii»'Mli» 
gious prejudiDea,' iThat)<#aaliiaTU# 
aftheoaae. Tbat amah bad vei>to 
be done to malce all the inhaMtaatl 
of iratandpaiticifMitewllie benafifta 
of education, all <» them» hebelieaedy 
Mreed, though they imght perhatw 
differ in aaine reapecta as to'the beat 
ineansofdoiDgit ' 



:i.^IteiMiad)ftbwlPftr,\ihik tKb le- 
'fKMkB^milM^'Vfifif itaetT' to tet 
,dbaaiMib<iiMi>atciirW(bta attentioa. 
ilbiMnnt atqpoaM'that there Hfere 
l»Uv»fia(kniflmria<% fdik^Jthe db- 
ija00^UcbtaKl<lo^>iihei»tad tin' view 
ibnl|b beuditaaAi! dfeena^Wai the 

Ih*iatti>tQiT tt^uiie^ilMb -Ae-'isiibjeet 
^wiv^ittoMli^iaikBPaliai^poik 
«ff« <toci|tBBam taripfDOfiM *to^Ita- 
^Md^i^tfltoadtieidiaiati aaaihinatioii 
imKihe^>q>oLnoHa)WBi[iqiidhiad to 
.|M«^pOi^lihe<faaitaf«H|aaa«Pii«-fint^ be- 
xfusfffit adbstidoslliagveeable' to Ike 
gofamtt)a»t^ riaiajbicftd<eio om ai i ii » - 
aiane» oaithaiapm:>irMM4ie able to 
esKniidaetttMeidiMfitiaUy^iwaooii^ 
JbitMiB^lMiiei neokl^aailyv HbedMiae'lfe 
wai iiitlitti0dito''iftipaa Wl iiioih Ute 
«ppaititm€iiit<tf[a/aMtttbladbaj- bya 
'f«tollecti(ia df teMatlMaafitwl^ 
tbc piMo'Mailatwadyia uiwii i frem 
tfaci falitoa «f ihe tWoilbMtter Ixml- 
iaisBMnaki Srelaad. 'He tlea iiio?8A 
Hm laaoiUtiaki to dadfcllorRia||^eei^ 
^^Thatiiite hamUd addrdaa be pieL 

iwiU baiaiAu»0Ubfyipleaaed'«o.aiaM a 
oopmaiaSDniaaJfef tiie gg ta ta e al ^api 
pojadag ixirt tnyaioneaa ' to> ' inyare 
iito the natami and>aateni*of m iti- 
atnntbf aibtdad by thaiinifiailHBia 
ii0i«daaation'^'ib Jrelaad^'tahidktara 
mamtaiiied iniwiM^l^«lriii<|aaCitoai 
tbB'pdbl^d fandi^^Htoifio^fdiielixitoiiie 
aiata and: vMrditif^n^ of • liia^r^aaf abd 
difltiict»abbodlibyt«iK| tbv aatiit^ of 
thoae initiidlicbi4'Mto<aMMItatt' atat 
iagu)ktiofaa!](>re»ail ntdSifi^famdAil 
aillool^ aild to^halraacteat'thcrf aia 
oarrM**^4uid tonopott their wmioii 
tetotiiie btetauHiiiifeatoba^adotMd 
isrieKtoadinffitbe loJenetoof' edMi^ 
lH»fto the a£ale bodf of die paaple 
ef Italaiid, widtodt religiobs Moo 
tionr and alab, dxat he wiH be grao- 
oualypleaeed to direct, that a oony 
of their veport be placed upon te 
table of that house/' 

ilfr. 



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fmuuomamaxruBBiaBs. 



«|7 



jwt he lK•l]ld.n<lite»m8«^• totftr 

4n8B to.HkekKiBta MiHe motticMi 
iw^l tbftiipwiCin»jiHbicdU«iMM'«^ 
pmaed upon th* aMHnfeyrioC aoiBe 

nerer /CtiifHiy/oeGiflion iomd* taaon 

thwg in ite gtmmii^naiqi^Utf^f 
kdbad toi€ip?Miiteilb«r<flwt»owy 
audi syvfeem U;it*lMtfibei»)rA|ipUedto 
ItbIumL Tbtihttugon^eann ivouU 
BOt dear that ¥«ygrefttt«u« anddre- 
flecdoniUKlbefQappbed; andstwai 
not beOMM.difr «tafet of the ooUnftry 
had bean tmuiuaUy tvbulent state 
1848, itlMkithe home wen thefefoie 
4a dnfniff* He woidd aalafy the 
boo. oeol&eiinak tet he had not Dfig^ 
laded to dolds doKraooovdingtothe 
4^uiioQ3 whicKhe had thifti e^pre»- 
€0; 'for» adt only had he done all in 
his pawer to ^ve effect to tboaeaf»- 
nioiiB in drawing 19 the 13th repnst 
of the eommi«iaii# bat in the otU 
whkh he had hcouflht m paorvant 
.to die hhouK of Ac ooanoMBioit^ 
which wBia hill ftr the beltcr'n|;ii- 
Jbilon of aehpola endowed by efaanly^ 
Wbedier*pi1ilie cn^private^ it iroa da*- 
^daved m tiNi |mnible 'diat .dMiae 
abuMsdid— iat'whkh^hfthan.gea* 
dcaaaia tjafaipofled him (lyir. Pftd) wi» 
willing ta adiaiL Ai» jfaoitly aikar 
that lane, he bcycame diaeoanectad 
widi offikae. ia Iielandy he did not 
^aow how fkn the ooouaiaiioB had 
aaooeedediadtei^t away with thoae 
abuKS* If any of then shouklire* 
main, they wcmld be fit objects for 
the treatment «f the newoommianon* 
Aa to any g^wnl plan ef education, 



1824, 



:if 



flBiaDw'iio' 
diOciri^ ftoidia jdie>|wUie IMiag 
vlAft jpaaaiaJty^ .wtecb mart al- 

Warn the jJmHuiiMtit to'paipdatian 
laati reoiivaying'>'aBnuaaia >powaMi 'Ar 

Bad' jnbmaxibm dndrk ^dna IikI 
.ba«i.hkiiBdHi|( ahdR^lama' AdM 
«4p^:faa;liad aHMBJitad ifaadiim* He 
\kBd joiaa^'Ui laniriailua lOf - ^eade- 
Ifliekk flf diSfweul vdiisnaa penaa* 
ihid t^ijMBPii object of which 

to eitmd' edupatioii. WhtP 
teybegpaa^^ia ^16^.JthBy had net 
eaaacfam: inidvee yaam alftea,difly 
hadeatiMigiiedaaOachaols; tq 1^ 
ibUowiag, they wefeiinceaaatd to 
613; te yearaAer«to>727; amlnow 
diey ware hlQfki Tfaephm •€ thk 
aanciatioii was toi itt¥a oadniiiBa aad 
piMCHWiia emicapwi * togaaiari, ( 
viaoed,* aa they wera*iiluit; what 
dtffereacediCBre might be ia their r0- 
ligiotn belief;i^ WDidd^tfarnqghoat 
iheir Uvea, be bonnd together, in 
iheadriii^ fiom theireiydy tmdnnayL 
He had BO doidAoC gvenk ^aod being 
doaaa by thainqttirieabfitkiaQQmaBi^ 
aiong meary Jaj^proiaamatw ari§^ be 
diacovemd^ weraJtiOal}&bToorapBrif> 
aott of oaie portipi^>oC the aefaoolit 
wttln 4hi amflfomapti'af aattthei^ 
and btf obaaifint*^ eoBiwqiw»Ma 
aH eacK^iten^d uAtaUavaatmiriat 
tfaehoaaehit1« th» iMAirhefone^khna^ 
md let thrna gall dnHba p e awniwMm *- 
arttfer jei cpiaaqa^a^aaiaoine.gaeap 
aal and feaabfefdun^ .Uadaabtady 
the vahae.of '^e>oomaMflai6n MiM 
aiavily deptad qpoa. theimana^af 
filltag «p! the. A]nx>iatment%, which 
would be af gpaaet and solemn, du^ 
for theadviasiB.of ^the^c^orwii.. >.Iit 
pledged himadf that tli# goii«iaaieat 
woald seek no oth» object than thit 
of giving the greatest ef&cacy to tha 
oommii8ion» wi satisfyii^ the de« 

R vtms 



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258 



PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



8068 of the house forthe improvement 
odhepeagHe of Ireland. 

Mr, Braumlow asproved of the 
adoption of some Uberai and en- 
lightened plan of national education 
utider tiie sanction of parliament: 
but there were peculiar obstacles in 
the nature of the subject. He would 
never surrender ,tfae principle that 
education, to be useful, or rather not 
to be mischievous, must be insepa- 
mbtyconAected whh moral and re- 
^ouB instmctiQn, although Mi^ 
Irane, and aome odier great as well 
as good men, were said to have been 
of no rcQi^on. The petition of the 
catholic bishq», presented the other 
day* objected to the reading of the 
bible in the sdKiols without joole or 
eonunent: it also dedaied 2^;adnst 
the stmadon of liteiaiy imd rehgi- 
ouB educatian. In ^ general sense 
of this last objection he concurred 
with them: but the bishops, of 
ooune, meant by reli^cras education, 
leli^on incukatad xmdet Roman ca- 
thohc forms* Now he did not want 
to enfoioe the reading of the bible in 
the scfaoolB as a primtf or class book, 
yet he must require this much at 



least— that the bible be read by the 
grown population. He did not want 
to make converts and prosdytes of 
the children in the schools. He was 
of opinion that the difference on this 
point would be fetal to any plan for 
educatine the protestants and catho- 
lics together. Some indulgence might 
be allowed to the sentiments of the 
catholic dergy; and on the other 
hand some concession must be re** 
quired froni them. Pcihaps the 
commission would disoover «nne 
neutral ground upon whidi, throwing 
ande their differences, the two.paiw 
ties oould unitefor ^ coiomon«Dd 
of the whol^ —The motion was men 
carried. 

Mabch 29.---Tbe house, having 
formed itself into a oommittee m 
supply— 

£4,547 was voted for the British 
museum. 

£4,478 was granted for the sup- 
port of tlie society for discounter 
^f ^ prip g vice in Irdand. 

£27,000 for the foundling hoepi- 
4al, Qublin* 

£10,000 in aid of ^chcNob 
4>liahed by viduntaiy subscription. 



CHAP. 



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PAKtIAMENTAEY DEBATES. 



359 



CHAP. III. 



Duty on Small Legacies — Coal Duties — Dissenters* Marriages — St, Ca^ 
therine's Dock^AUen Act — Windsor Castk-^SuppUe^^DefcMe of 
Fehm by CowMd-^lhe Beer Duties — Umry Laws^^New Churches. 



TWOVSB €fCamm9HS, Apnl Ist 
•'^— *Afr. jFfifmtf said, that he had a 
motion to make, reladns to a portioa 
of the Tcvenue which, ttiough it was 
only snndU in amount, was produc- 
tive c€ very great trouble and vexa- 
tion. The pordon of revenue to 
wfaiefa he alluded was derived from 
the legai^ doty on pmperty under 
100/L lie was of opinion that the 
whole system <A l^acy duties stood 
in need of revision ood modification ; 
at any rate, if it were to be contintied, 
it ought to be made to press as lightly 
as possible on pemons possessed of 
only sinaU property. By a return 
which had been hid upon the table 
within the last few days, he fixmd, 
that though the whole amount of the 
stamp^uties on probates, admini- 
strations, and testamentaiy inden- 
tures was about 1,800,000^, that 
pait of it wUch arose from the legacy 
dudes on sums under 100/. was very 
trifling indeed. Few gentlemen who 
had not exanuned into the subject 
were aware of the heavy expense 
which under the present system at- 
tended the taking out of administra- 
tions in Scodand. He had in his 
hand a bill from which it appeared 
that to obtain administration to a 
propeity of I06i. an en)ense of 14iL 
had been incurred. This was a tax 



of 14 per oenL on the sum which 
the administrator, who stood in the 
relation of neplW to the person 
to vtrfaom he adtniniBtered, haa to r^^ 
oeive. In another instance 4/. 14f.6(i 
had been paid, to obtain adnmustra^ 
don to 55/. Though the inoonve* 
nience of the l^ecy duties wai 
strongly felt in England, it was stifl 
more strongly felt in Scodand, vdiere 
those who collected them had even 
pone so far as to insist that the vrool- 
kn nightcap in whidi a man had 
died 8£>uld be induded in the sche- 
dule of his effects. He was satisfied 
that the chancellor of the exchequer, 
when he was made acquainted vridi 
tiie details of this subject, would do 
his utmost to relieve die vexation 
which this system occasioned* He 
would suegest one mode of rehef to 
the rieht lu>n. gentleman, which he 
thought might be adopted without 
occasioning any diminution in the 
revenue, lie mul little doubt that if 
the right hon.^d»nan would cease 
to allow the discount which vras now 
granted upon stamps for probates 
and administrations above 100/L, he 
might cover the deficiency vdiich 
wouki be created by remitdng the 
dudes on property under lOOiL The 
discount allowed upon the stamps to 
which he had alluded was much too 

great: 



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260 



PAKUAl^NTARY. QjB^AX£S. 



great : he ba4 in, bi^ handle seve^d 
proctoiE' byiAy for. which it app^ed 
that siuaa of 90^ were, sonq^times 
allowed as discount upon probate 
stamps* : r 4 

Whilst he was^ vpon this subiect, 
he could not hdp loaUing fhe A^ 
honourable.ffentie9i«A's attention to 
a haxdship mich h^ thougl^ put to be 
ren^ediedasspeodi^aspqssU^le. If 
a man died, leaving property to the 
amount of 1,00(U.,. and debts to the 
amount of 950I» his executors, were 
obliged to pay the stamp duty, not 
upon the 50L, of which te was 
really poflsessedy but vpon the lOOOL, 
whid); was in his /custody at the/time 
of his decease. It was true that un- 
der such circiiDastaikces this disty was 
afterwards .returned* if afi^lication 
were made for it ta the proper quar- 
ter ; but he.UQ^rstQod that the jap- 
plioutioa was^sekkwA made, in con- 
sequence of the. trouble ;with whidi 
it was attended. Afber some iurw- 
ther iemad(s on the grievances to 
which the poorer ^i^lasses were sub- 
jected by the enaction of legacy 
duties, the honourable member con- 
cluded bv moving, '' That there be 
laid on tne table of the house a re- 
turn of the total revenue received on 
staii^ duties of probates, admini»- 
tiations, and testamentary indentures, 
of property under 100^ &r the year 
ending Januaiy 5th. 1824, dtstin- 
gui^ioe the amount received in Eeh 
gland, Scotland, and Ireland.*' 

The ChmodkfT of the Exchefner 
had npt any otjectioD to themotion, 
which was -agreed to. 

S^M. W.tmey b^eed leave, 
before be moved that thebouse re- 
solved itself into a committee on the 
coals duties act, to present a petition 
from the coal-owners of the north 
of England, praying tint an equal 
measure of taxation should be dealt 
out to them, and to those persona 



ooni»9cted i^nth inland ooal-works. — 
The petiton was laid on the table. 

The honourable bart. then moved 
the onder of the day, for the house 
reviving itself into a committee of 
the whole house, to consider of the 
coal acta. In the committee, the ho- 
nourable baronet observed, that the 
petition which he had just presented 
mm the coalroWAers of the north, 
embraced the pripc^le which he felt 
ithisduwto&Uf>pQrtJ! Tbe question 
he wished to bring ui^der their oon- 
sideratioa was ^t^mely important ; 
and he requested tlie atteijltion of the 
commitbee,.fi>r a short time, whi)e he 
laid down, the grounds; on which the 
proposition he intended to conclude 
with was . fouufc^. His object was, 
that the alterations proposed to be 
made by the chancellor of the ex- 
chequer in the coal duties should be 
re-considered, before they were ul- 
timately carried into effect Those 
alterations would, he was convinced, 
considerably injure the coal-trade of 
London, if not of the coundy at 
large, and were, as it apneared to 
him, founded on an absura and un- 
just principle of taxation. . He was 
sure that no one who h^ard the richt 
honourable gentleman, when he de- 
tailed to time house the financial 
situation of the countiy, or who had 
read the speech ^ich he madje on 
that occasion, oould feel other sen- 
sations than those of pleasure, at the 
recognition of the principles of free 
trade by which that speeoh was dis- 
tinguished — ^prmciples which were 
then generally approved of and as- 
serted: but in proportion as he felt 
pleased at that exposition, did he 
afterwards feel dissatisfied, when be 
found that the right honourable gen- 
tleman had so soon foigotten the 
principles of equal taxation, and 
' adopted a partial and unfair system 
of taxation with respect to two com-, 
modities 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



Wl 



modifies of the same kind. *Whsn 
the right honourable gentleman^ at 
the period to which he had aheady 
alluded, expressed his intention of 
making an alteration in the duty on 
tOm, he observed, that " he meant 
to propose such a reduction of the 
permanent duty on rum as would 
relieve it from one pe<hiliar difficuHy 
tmder which it now laboured. No 
one would think it right or possible 
to reduce the doty lower than level 
widi the duty paid upon British 
spirits. Therefore he meant to take 
off at first Is. lifiL a gallon duty 
upon rum, which would make the 
duty on that article and British spirits 
nominally the same.*' Here was a 
principle of fair and just taxation 
laid dbwn in one instance ; and he 
cbuld hat conceive why, in legisla- 
ting on another, he had thou^t fit 
to deviate fiiQm that principle, why, 
instead of pursuinff this system of 
Equality, he had chosen to exempt 
from taxation one species of coal, 
while he placed a harsh and unjust 
impost on another, he could not 
conceive. It was his duty to l^s* 
late for the general interest The 
agricultural interest and the distilling 
interest were Reeled by the altei-^ 
tion in the duty on rum. The right 
honourable gentleman on this pomt 
observed^ diat " he knew that there 
were differences in the mbdeofievy- 
ing llie two duties, which would pre- 
vent the propo^ reduction irom 
brii^ing the commodities precisely 
to &B 6km point ; but those who 
were aifie^^, as t6 property; in the 
question, would rebollect that the 
British spirits were liable to the duty 
on msik; and, taking all the circum- 
stances into considrntion, the two 
interests, he thought, wotild appear 
to* be veiy equitably balanced. He 
did not know what effect the mea- 
sure might have upon the dealing in 



i^im, but he beKeted that it was 
sound in principle; and h« object 
should always be to abide by a 
dound prihciple, even although it did 
not at nrst sight, promise the most 
of practical convenience and ben^ 
fit*' Now, if the principle were a 
sound and good one, he shoidd be 
glad to know why the right honoinv 
able gentleman had in andlher case 
aetedon a very different principle. 
He should be glad to know why one 
body of persons dealing in a nece^ 
sary of life, should be favoured more 
than another occupied in '^e self- 
same trade ? Was it for the benefit 
of the consumer? If it was, the 
right honourable gentleman must 
carry the principle Either. He must 
.rep«il, at once, if it were possible^ 
the entire duty on coals. The con- 
sumer would then mdeed be., consi- 
derably benefited, and no party 
would have just cause for complaint. 
Let the right honourable gendeman, 
in legislaring on thb question, not 
confine himself to one party. Let 
him consider not only the situation o( 
the inland coal trade, but the state, 
also, of the coal trade in the noith. 
ft must be kiMwn to all, that the 
northern ownen had coals of various 
descriptions, many of them of an in- 
ferior quality, and which fetched an 
inferior price-- just as was ^ case 
of inland tx)a]s^— but they poM on 
those htferior coals precisely the 
same duty as was levied on the best 
tfiatcam^to matket. Now, if the 
right honburaUe gentleman meaiit 
to bqng into competition with a good 
artide, a commodity of inferior 
quality, there certainly ought to be 
an equal portion of tax taken off, so 
as to reduce the two articles to some- 
thing like a level. 

T^e right honourable gentleman 
had obsemd that the interests which 
had grown up under the existing 

cod 



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262 



PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



eoal sftibem were sadi as to ftreveiit 
hiM fiioflii fivipasing^ a pUn by wi^ 
on this pamt, an act of general ie« 
tie^ and of fltifici jnsdoe to the whde 
eountiy, might be effected. He had/ 
however, yet to kam what those iiw 
teiesU w^re. The general mterestti 
of the fwblic ' smely were not to be 
gacrifioed tb any particular interest ; 
and« when he n^Me of particular in^ 
temkS} he must have veeolleobed that 
ikey ofii^ sprung up undef the pre^ 
sent'dutiesy in the ooone of a oen- 
tuiy* 

lliesulnM of the introduction of 
inland o^ had always attracted the 
attention ofiheiioithem coaWowners ; 
aad they had oonstantly leaisted any 
attempt to hnbg these coods into tfa^ 
maiiket, by &e operation of any 
BMasure tliat would act as a protect- 
ing duty. To prove that govemo* 
nent had always viewed with a fep 
vouraMe eye the ooal coastii^ trade, 
the honourable baionet read an ex- 
tract from the letter of a genlleman 
intimately acquainted with the sub-> 
jeot, in which, and aHer several 
pfe&toiy ■ observations, he dddaied 
that - <*lhe eeal^owners had been 
taught that government would never 
oease* to protect the coasting trade;" 
He ak> cited aletterliNNn Afr. Ward to 
itoe seerefaiy df the coal trade, in 
which that genUeman sti^ <<thal 
slatieiis shoold be appoint^, and 
duties, eq|ttal tothe ooasdngi^uties, 
levied OD inland coal, V Thiscleaily 
showed the existence of a £aeling on 
the nart of the govotunent that ihe 
noitiiem owners weie likely to 
be> fatjured by the introduction of 
inland coate, except under certain 
regtdationa. The right honourable 
seatieman had spoken of the use- 
kss, unmeaning, and preposterous 
restaiction on tiie importation of 
' intaod ooaU which operated as a 
proUhitioB. He argued with the 



ri^t hontmtaUe gendeman^ that it 
did operate as a prohibition, and it 
might, he conceived, be removed at 
the present moment, and equivalent 
reli^ being granted to the nothem 
owners* & 1805, as a proteotioii 
to the sea-borne oeal^ it was found 
necessary to diarge a«luty of 10a* 2d 
a ton on coals of a certain quality^ 
broueht by die eana), whieh waa 
equal to the duly of ds. 4d. a chal- 
dron paid on sea-t^botne coals* On 
that oeeasion, a minute wstt wntten 
by a lisht honourable gentkawt 
thclk in &e treasury, ifae r(^(^ection 
of which wouki; perhaps, induce him 
to lend the nordiem owneis a haasl, 
instead taf overturning that whidi he 
had Umaelf assisted to . buiki up. 
In that minute, dated the 6th. of 
April, 1805, the right honourable 
gentleman observed, «* that the sate 
of coals brought by the grand junc- 
tion canal must, of netsesrity, exdte 
the jealousy of thctee who brought 
sea-borne cods ;'* and he expressed 
has confident hope, that the fosmer 
would not be allowed ** to interfere 
with so valuable a bianfih of Britidi 
navigation*" He would now mSa 
toceiptain language which the chan- 
cellor of the exchequer had held 
when he first touched <mi this subject 
— ^language vdiich, ooinin|^from soch 
h^ aul^Mrity, must have had the 
effect of conveying improssioto very 
un&voorable to a higl]^ respectable 
chtas of men. He Covikl n<^ howu 
ever, brinff Imnself to believe that 
sudi vras uit intention of the ri^t 
honourable gentleman. The ri^ 
honourable gentleman had dedbred 
that he vrould remit 3s; id* perchal* 
dron on coals brought totiie lioodon 
market. 

Now, before he proceeded farther, 

he miriit be allowed to ssy, that he 

himsi&had no oli^ection n^atroevar 

tothis reduction of duty. Ota the 

contraiyy 



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PARLIABIBNTARY DEBATES. 



263 



eoDtiwy, he wished that more should 
be taken off; bK he was hy no 
means sore dial the measure was 
satn&doiy to the jKiople of London. 
He had seen a series of resoliitions 
pissed at a meeting of merdumts, 
txniken» and tradeis of the city of 
London, who were destioas that the 
3ft. 4cL should be retained, for the 
nirposeofimpnmiigthe metropolis. 
The righl honourable gendeman, by 
taking off 3j^. 4d from the dtrty on 
sea4wnie coal, and by making a 
anieh knger leducdon in the duty 
payabfe on inland eoal^ did, in &ct, 
Btrodnoea iq^stem of unjust because 
unequal taxation, because he treated 
with mariced^ diOerenoe the same 
commodity coming from different 
parts of the same country. The right 
lionourable gentleman lutdcoufkilent^ 
ly stated, tmit 'Uhis would put an 
ead to the power which persons con- 
nected with this trade now possessed, 
incmnmon with all monopolists-* 
that of rai^^ the priee of coals be- 
yond their Tslue by stinting the sup* 
ply— thus attending to uieir own 
interests, instead of the wants of the 
consumers.** This was a point, r^ 
spectingihe coal trade, whidi ap- 
peared to be understood. It was 
ss^, that Ihere was a re^ulaticm 
amoogstthe coal-owners to hmit the 
qnantily of coals sent to London, 
now he b^ged leave to state to the 
committee, and he would, if neces- 
sary, pcove the feet at the bar of the 
house, that there was no regulation 
between the coal-owneiB» directly or 
indirectly, to limit the quantity of 
coals sent to London. 

All the regulations they entered 
into had for their object to make the 
best dftl^irtime and the most of 
their capi^ The coals supplied 
by Shields aud Newcasde were taken 
mm fi%-six collieriest the property 
of one hundred and^% pioprielois. 



They gave empkiyment, ix>d, and 
raiment, to not less than one hun- 
dred thousand penons. Th^ were 
prohibited by sea duties from caxry«- 
Ing coals into tiie fosem market 
A considerable quantity of coals was^ 
fiom the very natiate of the ttade» 
annuaUy wasted If they could in* 
troduoe small coals into the London 
market (andthey would answer every 
bit as weU as laige)> it would be a 
very great advante^ to theme but 
while the large oosd was so entirely 
perferred in ]x>ndon» small coal coaki 
not be broi^ht in, and they Were 
not allowed to export it ' The only 
regulation which tne owners had with 
respect to the London market was» 
that the quantity assignable to dke 
metropolis should be in oeitam pro^ 
portions, aod at certain times ; btit 
nothing whatsoever existed to limit 
the quantity iN^iieh it rai^t be found 
eqsedient to send to the London 
market. The coa^wnere were a 
htde too §ar nordi to be so blind- to 
thek inteftst Those who weie ac- 
quainted with the coHieiy fatisiness 
must know, that the expense of the 
owner mu^ in many respects^ be the 
same, whether the quantity oi- coid 
he raised was great or small. There- 
fore it ivas clear, that the more he 
shipped to London, the greater must 
be his profit To pijx>ve3iat the sup- 
ply of coals for the Lon<k>n mari^ 
was not so limited as to enhance the 
price, even supposing, foFargumenfs 
sake, that sucn a regulation existed 
as tlmt which had been alluded to» 
he would call the attention of the 
house to a document which he hdd 
in his hand. For many yean the 
price charged by the coal-owners 
vras not meed. At length a rise of 
from 2s. to 4^. took place. But 
it must be observed, that the charge 
which was made in the London mar- 
ket depended on the coal duties, over 

which 



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PA]ai4IMINK4«r/i9KKiVBfi^ 



tnL '. •■! ... HT'</; v.rc . ... .^tkits,:;<^^fl^Tl¥ilAepmeiil^diiti«» 

^jawobet irf skip* al^Wk^t rfor. /co$y^?^ifbi«^',>(H: Jbgi^-i^}^ il»ypi|^n» 
every day dmiog the ftas l^^M^ froq^ aQy>poift (Ul pl^c^^io wy idace 
it appesyq^ from diatdotim^trtibftto )in tWAqip^rofrJMiddleaeXior J^iU 
there w«« .but fiired^^nfaewfapje.. fo^9l^lp9a9e9ad,d4t^i«iiDe»[«iMl 
year when ibe entitt ^f^jily ^of > that.ifas ;,foUowiQg dy^jie&> sbiM ;be 
coals' in the market wa».broi^^>.. heie^A^ ^^i^Sv&emu viz^^rmoa 



JMJy 


72 


A»«B(rt,-. 


126 


^ptemher 


15|6 


OetoW - 


97 


Nowmber 


43 


Decentber 


569 



Tbeie wen^ oa thr fint dtyiof ea^: 
nendft, thefoUowuMtfbips left ua-r. 
8qU:~ I ; : 

Ja^naiy -' SdO 

Februiy- W4 

March^ . 250 

Ami - -^ 126 

Jime«4 -f '^ 44 
Hfie it appealed that tbeve ma, in 
aom^ 4ii0taAcea» a,ai]|yply of two 
hundred and fi% eUipaiineoki in the 
]n«rk^. The^islatme bad thought 
fNTopeit &r the aeourity of the oon* 
aui^l^e^ to^ <ai)f)cuit.€^itiMi oSceiB, 
deooiainaled m^iB* Mtboep dnty it 
wae:;ta^aee tbaltke ooak ymt prcH- 
nerly delHi^ied; but it yeiy often 
haj^eoedfti thai fiv wsadiof ,metem 
the fitapa eauU not driver their cam 
gpea-.. IV piQve ^faia fen^ .the. ho- 
noi^Ue baiQQM^ read ai^ aecouBt» 
fiom wbieh. it appeai«|d« that at 
differantrperioda ^ tbt year 1823 
there w^ece fro^ ten ^ two< hundred 
an4aix^Hfi^ -ships waiting fer me*' 
tens, . mmg stated ,tb^ nueh in . 
defenee of the coc4rOwneia» b» 
shwiU raerolv aiatO; that •tk^': olg€0 
whicb^ be bad im view, in the motn^ 
tions ^Uoh be. wa8,ab9Ktto piopose^ 
was i9 put th^»lwo toadas on^ aa 
equaUy.iaij^ be suppoif^ the cig^ 
hqnoiasable jientleman bad intended* 
He wished. to leave untouched a 
wholesome and just principle, that 
^f equality of taxation, so far as re- 
garded two dealers in the same com- 
modity« The honourable basonet 



cofJs»f5mliBfc>flnd,<a»djw»;iftcaaeTaaeh 
are.nsw^vi«dd,l9imq9sina,4«. ^ . 
per. iobaJAnW'vandj iVlk,^c^im:imA 
coi|]l> ^pln^ >andi«iAdii% an^j^waB^'f \ 
soU .b«r/nwi^ij/@^.p^^p«$(i(7te 
all 9Qatptmili9,.^ m4^t^ i^^k^ 
ted br A^ Gts^ lv«e^i9i^.offifMr< • 
diagtonr: Cmk>^ qmrn/i^.tm^i ^ 
stones «r p9s4at<iv«ite-bMlk ; Or tf 
hy^ib»Tbimi^:Wfm^^ to^tdm 
atfr^Qoi^ shall j^, 4f uMa%(«oU| 
by measure, 3««jpeff|chaiid!K>n;.aiid if 
by wieigbt» 4ai Qfi pWitoPVNPOPdi. 
that, next year, a further reductkm 
of duty to the amoimt.i^r l^i abfiU 
take pla^ : and ibifA^Jik»i it MifP^ . 



)ut gradfa^y. r^pfiaild..K j . 1 1 

The fErst^resoMoi^ bmi^.tbeesk 
moved* . r r . 

I§f^ Ltitiktoity aaidf *.if be.ihcNBbt > 
that an V beneSla oowld posnbly' «se 
iron . the . Ixweonbte >l3iHRmeft^s ^ 
eotamaadatian, he iraddfaettkeivelry 
last nian.toobject to.iti > WhrntKa 
duty on eotUa canciBd oaastma 
was first ptojeoled^. the poiMs^dea of 
politieil^eoonai]^ wete; mttoo <iimli 
Knoimas^ey were att^paeaeiit It 
was then fell tbiit:CQabbotti«byt8c% 
had avery great adwmtaea o v er A oae 
which wese earnedby £ind ;. inAit 
should be observed, tfaatiatahBl'pe* 
riod, the conveyance by canal wn 
extveanely Umated* The isea was an 
open navigation; kafforded adva»« 
t^ges not possessed by anv^ other 
mode of conveyance, and. thsKfese 
duties were imnosed on. that species 
of caniage. In . IBO^ when the 

Grand 



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265 



it 1MI0 dteesied ^ttupti ii^ t$hice^% '^king's do^ were & heavier on Urn 
heavy Aity^tMitbdsCaf^ t^^tiglr iriaiAithdiiir^ ai Illl«rid«i^lK»ibc^<lGdij. 
thtti?cteMDl«k 'ThiirhelLot^eii^tif^ >Th&^j^ 
as agfM'4njfBtki&'" M^it 'w^f€^^i^'i^on Sfe«M<lorB3||f^'ib9i<«»i>^<:c^/itt 



poil3<nr of it WW #oftre«'^ i^liittkt 
uotsttedf * <Vh^ WeiWik«fidi«ds'^ 
plates ^idrnt^if^bkai^ d^k^- t^ae^ixt 
ocMtipiftitsdft^wkh th6%e{(-%cft^e4oaI^ 
Hfiiift'^ifl^r^ifQd^^^lbded;' ^If die 

fltaiMeidie OfWii^^ MtaRil tii^ t^ 
a mtfch greaittni^ tQ^«MQ{>kdti of 
injttBtke ^tb^-4te'^iiilrtttem 'toal^ 

w^^' mpM^' ia r /faoS; 'i' At UsA 
peH(»d>tM! glted jiBitiieiii cMupaBy 
tiad'tieaHy^ttOittpleted ^ieir under- 

19^ nMhem^QO&lH>wii«rsj afraid 
thalkikiiid tioab would be brought 
to Ikar tta(itoi>'by tiiat canal, re« 
presented that a cktae,' wbidi pre^ 
vefltted^'impoitalioH'of'siich omJ, 
dioukl be introduced, under the miuslc 
of pEBtectiBg ihg* -revenue. Those 
gentlnneD^ not eonteiit 'with pre*^ 
venting inhmd cx>al fiKNn oomiog inlE» 
theLondbtt^nMusfey at the seMoal 
di<^ indoeed the insettion of a'pn>« 
viskn in the b^^whidbgare to tneif 
ooais a monopoly^ not merely dffSbe 
London market, but of the ooitntty * 
for iBevd n te e n mfles twind it. The 
honourable beionet had 'neglected to 
state the price of each sort of coals; 
No doubt, he depended on te prin^ 
ciple (hear, hear) ; but the scale of 
pnoea waa necessary for the elucidat' 
tion of the (juestion. Ifis (Mr. lit* 
tleton's) obfect was to show the 
hometheoost of a certain quantity 
of inbnd coals at Paddington, tfa^ 
cost of a certain quantity of sea^ 
borne coal in the pooU and then' to 



1^1^ Hr^ ^iltttMMi 4MS| indud- ' 
:ing the London duty, it was aa t9to 
18« >\ >Sb that on bo^ th^be heads of 
chtuges as compared^ v^ the p^md ' 
cost; the inland^xiali wei^ tattd itw ' 
finitely mote than « the sea cel^ * 
The ehaige for tohnageoti the hilaad ^ 
coals was also worthy df Notice.* Oft' 
a quantity of coali^ Miich cost 1€/.; < 
the tofitiflge charge W<kiMbe^[8a£. <^'' 
3U^ bemg' 1^ per ^letit. ^ ^ ' 
prime oost of die astide* ' --' 

No person need b(Ef suiprised 'al- 
theamall quantity of iida^ <06aliii<'' 
troduced to the London market fiiotii 
tho y^aur 18CK7 to tho ve«l<^; 
Dimifgthatperiod, only ftfythoonM 
toi» Were nav^at^b^^dlhe stone 
inioid€laEen£nVpkrh/ In 181^ 
1815, a!nd' 1816, there wei«»fourf- 
tho«l8feu3dithree huhtftedaniifilfy-nine 
tons of inland ^eM htdre^ lo' the ' 
London * masltet;' • iln ' 1821V q^& 
thousaad three htriaditedas^ fiA^nine ^ 
tons ; ki 182S, niiie' 4mM)red and ^ 
tw«h« tons t vA 'I9f&y^ ' hiihrdred' 
and 8iittjfii4hree^Di. 'S^nfe apptihen^ 
sionk were entetftaiAed that facffities ' 
afforded by the Graiid^ JanrtiOn Ca-'' 
nal Would operate mose-pi^jiidi^i^ 
a^inst the tK>iti'iem xxsal4>Wttek, by 
admitting thle.hnportatioh ^a Istrge 
quantity of inland' eoal to the.LdhcioR' 
market: but he would' a^ Wheliber, 
on the contrary, that wo^k teLdnoC^^ 
beai-more advantageous to ^lem 
than to any other body of men ? 
They had an opportunity of sending 
their coals from the Thames to the 
interior 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



interior bjr that channel, instead of 
being oompdled to use waggon-car- 
riage, which was fer more expemive? 
Tl^ had thns an exclusive mono- 
poly through a country exten*' 
from twenty five to thir^ miles. 

The honouraUe baronet's con- 
stiCnentB stood, therefore, in a much 
better situation than his (Mr. Little^ 
ton's) did* It ou$;ht not to be over- 
looked that the northern coal-owners 
had, and probably always would 
have, an unvarying demand for their 
coals for domestic purposes— a mat- 
ter of no small impottance. The 
coal-proprietors of tbe north, even 
under the circumstances of which 
they complained, would have an 
overpowermg advaintage over the in- 
land {xoprietorB, and one which tbe 
latter would never, probably, be able 
to surmount With the duty reducr 
ed, as it was to be, or even reduced 
still fiuther, the inland coals could 
never come in any great quantity 
into the maiicet of London ; nor dad 
the inland proprietors imi^ne that, 
in the long run, they could resist the 
gradual reduction of the duty on 
coals from the north. He (Mr. Lit- 
tleton), for himself, spoke without 
the smallest personal interest ; vod 
90 far was difierently circumstanced 
from honourable members on the 
other side, who would be likely to 
address the committee upon the sub^ 
iect He should certainly sit down 
by opposii^ the proposition of the 
honourable baronet (sir W. Ridley.) 

The Chancellor of the Exchequer 
apposed the motion, which ailer a 
few observations from some other 
members were n^atived: theiirBtby 
a majority of 32— the second by 26 
-«the third by 13. 

House of Lords, April 2. — 

The order of the day for the se- 
cond reading^of the unitarian mar^ 
riage relief bill being read, 



7^ Jformtt of LoiiMbion said, he 
should not nave diougfat it necenaiy 
to have called their indshipB* atten- 
tion to this subject at any len|^ if it 
had not been mtimated to wax that 
an oppoiiftion was intended to be 
made to the measure now before tha 
house. This bill originated in peti- 
tions which had been nresentedfran 
the did»nters in the last session of 
parliament,in which theycompkaned 
of the necessity tliey wdvunder, as 
the law now stood, of taking) a sfaaxe 
in the oelebvadon of the m aniayi 
ceremony, to which they ooold not m 
conscience assent k was die fint 
duty of the l^shtuie, on civii 
grounds, to provide agaonst die oele* 
bradon of clandestine nuiiriages; bm 
that bong provided for, it was naost 
impoitamt that marriage shouU be 
contracted with that solemnity which 
should eive to it in the eyes of the 
parties me most lasting and bindii^ 
obligation. When he stated diat it 
was the duty of the legislature to pra- 
vide against clandestine marrii^es, at 
was equally their duUr after tluit to 
give every f^cilitywhich wais poesifalef, 
and to avoid every diing that had 
even the appearanoeof a vnlationof 
conscienoe; and on this gronnd their 
lordships would find it neceanry to 
adopt tne proposition whidi he had 
now to submit to them, hhadbeen 
said that the measure he shoidd pio>« 
pose would include an alteration of 
the liturgy. This was not the lime 
to discuss whether such an abctatioii 
were desirable, as his propositio& 
left that part of our church service 
entirely untoachedw Their lordddpa, 
he was pereuaded, woidd not tidnk 
that persons who were tolerated by 
the law should, in die oerenM»y m 
marriage, be compelled to violafee 
their consciences, and be brou^ 
into our churdiesy andapj^ear to ag- 
niiy their assent to do<^nne wfaidi 

the 



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EASUAMENTABY DEBATES. 



967 



the knr did not, in any other ia- 
stenoe^caUupcmthemtodo* Jtwm 
nKMt impoitaiit their nutfiiage con- 
txacts shoukl be entered into with all 
the circiunstaDces most binding to 
the parties; and the object of the 
state oeing aeeoied by ptudidtv and 
aolenmity being given, that publicity 
and sokmnity riuMild take plaoe in 
die manner which the paitMs thought 
pioper* 

He tfaerefixe nropoaed in the bill 
nowbefoeetbe bOQse^ that the die- 
aenteiBy cofbmonl^r called unitarians 
might^iittder oeitaiii regulations, be 
married in their own dnpelsy having 
preriouBiy siven security to the 
cfaorch for uie publication of bans 
and the ponnent of fees due to the 
chuidi. He should have been pleas- 
ed to have broo^ in a bill of a 
more coiupfeheDsive nature^ indtido 
ing all disaenlers from the dnnoh* 
w&> could not reconcile it to their 
oonseienoes to concur in 4he mar* 
riage cecemcmy ; but with a view to 
pactical benefit^ he had tiwught it 
nest to Umit the measure as he had ; 
for when this subject was fbrmeriy 
belore the house. It was said by those 
for whose authority he had the high- 
est respect, that there might be tri- 
vial otgectioiis taken— objections as 
to mere forms, which the legislature 
was not bound to attend to ; and it 
was also said that it would afford 
fadlifties to clandestine marriages. 
k was then said, let us see the in- 
£vidaals who bad most leaaoa to 
object to the law^— let us see their 
case, and provide for that 

The bill before their lordships at- 
tended to the ease of the parties who, 
by the admisBion of some of the 
right reverend prelates, were acknow- 
Iraged to have most reason, in faro 
oontdentiai to oomphnn of the mar- 
riage ceremony. It was stated with 
a spirit faonooiable to the church. 



that the moment a esse appeared, in 
whidi the parties had conscientious 
objections, there would be a dispost* 
tion to afibid it relief. The bill 
went on to provide, that the protes- 
tant dissenters, commonly called 
unitarians^ might be reentered, and 
after beii^ so registered for not less 
than a year» dieir marris^ might be 
celebn^ in their own chapdL It 
was also provided, that ministers 
duHild be punishable if they cele» 
bnite any marriage contrary to thef 
act, and ne shoidd have no oMeetioa 
that transportation shonki be the 
punirinnent asngned for it Al- 
though the publi^on of bans was 
perhaps the best security against 
dandestine marriages, "yet, if any 
other shouki be thought preferable, 
such as festering the intended mar- 
riage, he should not object to it 
TlMfish the parties to be relieved by 
the bSl were the farthest removed of 
any protestant dissenters from the 
doctrmes of the church of Enaland, 
yet that was no reason for the house 
to refuse indulging them, being, in 
common with all mssenters, tolerat- 
ed by die law, and beine unques- 
tionably that class who had most 
reason to object to the marriage cere* 
mony as it now stood4 k vi^as on 
this allegation on their part^ that die 
legislature was called upon to extend 
theindu^^ce; and unless any no- 
ble lord (xyuld contend that the uni- 
tarians ought to be cast without the 
pale of society, or diat he shoidd not 
be allowed to many, or, if he should 
have that permission, yet the oqqti^ 
sion of the marriage ceremony should 
be taken to subje^ him to what he 
esteemed a violation of his ooo- 
science ; — unless any noble lord was 
bold enough to maintain any of these 
propositions, he (the niarc[uis of 
Lsuisdown) could not conceive any 
objection to the unitarian dissenters 

being 



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PARUAMENTARY DEBATES. 



beiii^ married in ^e way the pre- 
sent bill proposed. The npble mar- 
quis concluded by moving that the 
bijl be read a second time. 

He was supported by the arch- 
bishop of .Canterbury and the eaxl 
(>f Liverppol— ^e .lord Chancellor 
opposed it, ' . ., . ^ . 
* hord BoUixncL after the length of 
discui^ion to which this .subject had 
already gone, and the elucidation 
which the principles of th^ bill had 
received from Jthe noble president 
of thfB council, ai^d especially by the 
most reverend metropolitan — (in 
such a christian disposition, he would 
add, i|s proved that the church of 
Enffland deserved miich of the credit 
attnbuted to it by a noble lord-;-Cal- 
thorpej-T would say but little on the 
question. Some objections, how- 
ever, had been urged to the bill by 
a right rev. prelate,. and by the noble 
^(f leaniea earl on . the woolsack, 
(5 wliich h^ would shortly address 
jiimself ; and h^, did hope that the 
noble and learned Iprd would not 
leav^.tbe house ^thput ent^ng a 
Iktle into some e^planations.of, th^ 
opinipnsi b^ had offered to-night, 
il^d firtt,. as to the right rev. prdatp 
Uhe bi^o]^ of iOhesterj : there was a 
figOfe of metom wliich they ha,d all 
neard us^, but, too b^n in that 
iiouse, ^d 9p this soit of occasion, 
that v^h^n a^nat^ was about to violate 
^y in^porl25bt^^ Reived prin- 
($^^,; he thoijg&t it neccMaiy to an- 
ticipate, its i^ttectby very loud and 
aiudous piw^ oC ft, meanin| in the 
end to violate Jt,' JRhetorJcians. of 
tbisdescriptioti d^t wit|i i^uch prin- 
ciples as libertines did with weak 
gitls; whom they thought ^that the 
most certain way to win to their ruin, 
atid to lure to deletion, was the 
applicatkn of extravagant praise and 

lite rev. prelate had begun his 



speech by observing, that never was 
man more deeply impressed with 
the principles or toleration than Inm- 
self. He (loid Holland) believed 
him ; but he was sony to observe 
that the right rev, prehte, with so 
inuch genuine sentiments in his 
breast, ^ould not on this^ and on 
other occasions, have afforded some 
proof and manifestation of it in 
dealing with the question before the 
house. The right rev. prels^ con- 
sidered that the scruples of certain 
individuals were not such as ought 
to be respected by nobU loids ; SdA 
had entered into a detailed and in-' 
genious argument to sfapw that there 
were no grounds for such scruples. 
Now, in 3ie first place, every mail 
was himself the best judge of his 
own scruples. If a man told lum 
that he felt them, he (lord Holland) 
knew not what right he had to doubt 
his sinceriw. Irie individual must 
be judged by his own language and 
actions, and not by the opinion of 
another, however learned the per- 
sonage might be. The right rev. 
prelate had said, that the unitarian^ 
in the marriage service, w^ not re- 
quired to subscribe or repeat any 
ijhing contrary to kis conscience. 
The noble lord then addressed him- 
self to the speech of the bishop of 
Chester at some length ; contending 
that the right rev. prelate had no 
more ru^ht to erect himself into a 
judge of the conscience of the unita- 
rian, than the . unitarian had, upon 
the conscience of the right rev. pre- 
late. 

The noble and learned lord re- 
marked, that there were scruples 
which the parties had never found 
out before; — and why? The sta- 
tute of 52 Geo. HI., he asked - had 
they never found out that before ? 
But did they never complain ? (Hear, 
hear.) The noble and learned lord. 



in 



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PABilAMET^TARY DEBATES. 



269 



in the number of years he bad held 
his present place, must have known 
of &e existence of the statute in the 
books : and he must know, too, that 
an unitarian could not, before that 
act passed, have appeared at their 
bai" and said — ** I am an unitarian, 
and wish to be exempted from the 
operation of the marna^ act**' A 
public avowal of this 'kind would have 
Deen in the party a crimitial act by 
law. But the noble and learnea 
k>rd expressed a wi^h to kbow what 
the criminal law wias ? (Hear.) Could 
any one tell him, if he)iitnse)f did not 
know it ? What did the noble earl, 
then, mean bythis sort of ambiguous 
question > Why was he thus dis- 



la rajguai aaUguafl, e( qmerere eoMCiaa 



He had cited the authori^ of Locke ; 
but it was well known that the most 
competent judges, and &ebestevi-> 
dence, testified that Locke connder- 
ed the tolerating act which had been 
alluded to imperfect, because it did 
not include the unitarians. As to 
the suggestion thrown out to the 
noble earl, the president of the coun<- 
cil^ by the noble and learned lorc^ 
he (lord Holland) always understood 
that .it was held upon the behest au- 
thority, that Christianity was part and 
pareel of the law of the land. It 
was lord Hale, be believed, who first 
said this of Christianity ; but the doc- 
trine was afterwards more sensibly 
and emphatically laid down by lord 
Raymond. This happened in the 
famoiiB case of the king and W€>ol- 
ston, in the Ist and 2d Geo. H. : he 
believed it was this case, but he had 
not had an 0[^rtunity of referring to 
it On that occasion the learned 
judge said, he would not allow it to 
be debated whether Christianity was 



authentic, because it was jn foot a 
part of the law of the land; but he 
DC^ged it to be observed, that by 
this he meant Christianity generaUy^ 
and not the teuetg of any j)articular 
sect of cbria^ians. . Why. .then,* ' he 
(lord Holland) must ask liere, w^ 
wai^ Christianity ? Was it a belief 
in the holy scriptures,, or wasit'a 
belief in cefts^n expositions of thpse 
scriptures by human beings? Be 
would leave the iiobl^ ana learned 
lord on the woolsack to choose^ in 
the dileimx^ to which H^ must be in- 
duced. If the first point were held, 
then the unitarians werechristian^ iii 
every sense ; for they held the scrip- 
tures to be as sacred as any of their 
lordships. They held them to don- 
tain the rule of right, and the rule 
of &ith, and by then^ aloiie they 
stood. If it were said, qn. tti^ o^her 
hand, that those persons only Vrere 
christians wbo believed the '^)ly 
scriptures as they were expounded 
by the churcl>» thien, if the noWe apd 
learned lord helc[ that^ it followed 
that he must be jprepar^; io hold 
also, that before toe reign of Kenry 
VIU. the romau QSiS^hcip w^ the 
only christians in England, ^^or t^ 
that period the romap catholic reU-^ 
gion was part of the law of ihe land* 
Another of the obj^ectio^s wbic^ )iad 
been raised was, tWttHe proposed 
measure would make t)^e cnii6?ch of 
l^gland ancillarv to' 'ih^ unifarian 
dissetiters. He aid not see tl:|e fcpcp 
of this objection. Kd the '<?^m^n 
of Ireland consider itself in the li^^bt 
of a handmaid ? H^ didnii^t 1));Ueye 
it did. He suspected that^ itrntU the 
passing of Lonl Haidwidie> inar- 
ris^ act, the church ^ad" never ex- 
ercised that right which it was con- 
tended she could not forego without 
derogating from her db^ity. All 
foreign mairiages previous to ihat 

period 



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PARUAMENTARY IHBBArTES. 



period W^e cetebnted^ccotdiiig to 
tbe lex loci ; aad aU auurriageft dui j 
celebrated by a priest, wfae Aer of w 
chttdiof Ex^land or of Rome, were 
biiMfiiig. As to that pathetic part of 
the speech of the noble prekte, in 
which he had d^ored the haidlabe 
(^ the clergyman who by this bill 
would bedeprived of Insfeesy all he 
(lord Holland) had to sa^ in reply 
was, that the bill provided they 
should have their fees. But, said 
tiie noble prdate, those for which 
the bill provkbd atfe only the actual 
dues, and that beyond these dues it 
waa usold lor parties to give a small 
gratuity on the soleranization of mar* 
riagesy which formed a consideral^ 
source of emolument to the offi- 
ciating cLergyman. Wen, it might 
be so ; but was it not at least as 
likely that an imitarian would be 
wi^inff to bestow as laige a gratuity 
vdien he had his marriage sol^nnized 
and registered in sudi a manner as 
shodd satisfy thcscruple of his con* 
science, as when it was peilbnned in 
a maiHier tibBome and painful to his 
feelings? 

It was said, too, by a noble lord, 
whj shook! we grant this iavour to 
unitarians aion«--^hy was it not 
granted to ev^ other sect ? After 
U>e answer which had been given to 
this 1)^ the noMe president of tin 
oouaal^ he (k»d Holland) would aot 
take up the time of the house any 
mofedian by sayin^hnerely because 
theothemdidnotasrfbrit, and they, 
the unitarisstf, did» He oodldnot 
/help itfiinking the uail^riani were 
ywf haicay deadt with. If general 
relief was 41011^ for fhem, up juaap- 
ed the noble and learned lord from 
the wookaefcyUid complained that it 
wastoo general He said that it did 
not appear what sort of dissenters 
they were--*vidiether they were the 
disciples of Joanna Sou&oote, or 



juflgpers, or shakers ; and feared if 
thfe relief were given in this shape, 
they would not l^ able to make head 
nor tail of it. He therefore proposed 
that it should be postponed nntd the 
next session, and then that the points 
shoidd be discussed one by one. 
Then, when the next session came, 
the noUe and leamedlord said, wiw 
should we give relief to one ? fife 
^lord Holland) said it was the plainest 
and best way to give relief to them as 
they came to ask for it If no danger 
dtoidd appiear in dohag so^ he would 
rrant it to all; but it did appear to 
him to be the most strange, unpar- 
Ijammtaiy, and illogical reasoning 
that codd be ixnagtndl, to say ** we 
wonH give you the relief you ask for, 
because there are others who want it 
as much as you, and they do not ask 
for it*' It might be a very good 
reason for mnting the relief to lA, 
but it coiud be no reason for witb* 
holding it irom an^. He conounred 
entirety in the prmafdeB andstate- 
ments of the noble and rer. metro- 
politan, and he thousfat it but justice 
to him, and to the (£areh of wludi 
hewas an ornament, to say, that he 
thought his objection to aUecit^ the 
form of the lituroy was weU foinded. 
He (lord Holland) woold not shrink 
£rom sayii^ that he thought oertun 
parts of thelituigy mu^hk omitted; 
there were paxtsofituHu^, if itweie 
in his power to make an alteration, 
he would willing;ly alter. But high 
as he held the principles of religions 
liberty, he did not think the mem- 
bers of one church had aright to caU 
upon those of another to make any 
suchonnssions: that would indeed 
be maloDg the functions of die 
diurdi andllary to the dissenters. 
Butthe measure proposed tothe hocne 
was one purely ministerial and of a 
dvfl character. The law had made 
the solemnization and registration of 
marriages 



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271 



ffitoiages ia part of the i^kffffumk's 
duly» but it was no pait of hi8 ecde- 
siamcal fuBCtkm, and the church 
could tfierefore be in no sense called 
ancillary. 

The BoUe loidi concluded bjr say- 
in^ thdt the unitanans^ believiti^ as 
they did in the holy scnptures, might 
my they were as much Christiana as 
any other persons could be. If their 
diritfianity was* as the noble and 
learned lord said, (the phrase he 
thought was something iiieverent), 
part and parcel of the law of the 
hnd, there could be no reason ^y 
this classoCebsslaan dissenters should 
be called upon to do violence to their 
oonscienceB upon one of die moat 
infeoeating and solemn occasions of 
their lives. 

The house divided upon the queSi- 
tion of the second readmg, when die 



Content, .. 21 ( Pracies, 14— 35 
Notoontent,20 ) Ftozies, 13^33 
Majori^ for the second 
teadiBgy . - . • I 2 
House op Commons, Jpril 2. 
-^Mr, QrmrfeU rose to raxpf^ die 
second reading of the St Cathenne^s 
Dock bill It he hwl merely oon- 
sdhBd his own w^^jinajimij he would 
have ahstamedfiom mtddng any ob- 
aervalieiis at die preacnt st^ of the 
bill ; because it was only in a ooia- 
mitteeiqp stain dial a measnre of this 
Idnd^ coda be discussed with any 
chance of its bek^ properiy under- 
stood. As, however, he understood 
that the seeoiKi reading of the bill 
was lo be oppoaed, he wouldtrouUe 
the ho«e with a wvy few words on 
the present oceasioa. The oUect 
of die bill waa to poovide the public 
with addjitjonal dodss, which were 
roidered necessary by the incieaied, 
and he was happy to say, increasing 
tade and navigation of the country* 
It would be impossible to find any 



where a more convincing evkkaee 
of our increasing trade than in a 
paper which he had moved for on a 
fomer nigbt» and which was now 
lying prinStd on die table* It ap* 
pearea from that paper, that the 
amount of our exports and imports 
in 1798, die perioid when the duee 
ezidking dock oompani^ were esta- 
blished, was 30,000,000^ They 
were now 56,000,000/. Tbis in- 
OEease, so great in amount, had been 
progressive. The paper to ^^ch he 
had before alluded showed that the 
value of exports and impcvts had in^- 
creased in 1800, from 30,000^000/., 
which they were in 1798, to 
36,000,000/. ; in 1819 the amount 
vras 46,000,000^, and in 1823 it 
was 56,000,000/. This increase of 
trade called for increase of aocom^ 
modation. The establidnnent of a 
new dock company would, by opSB- 
icgamtemof compeddon, enable 
the public to obtain aooommodadoii 
at a cheaper ratettan at present 
The audioiB of the bUl before dv 
house demanded no exclusive pri- 
vileges for diemselves, and tber dis- 
daimed any interforence with the 
exclusive privileges possessed by the 
existing dodc companies. They 
only cbrirad that they, midit he at 
•Uboty to affixd addraonaf aocom- 
modadon to the trade, it was tcry 
natural that those persons who hod 
an interest in suppofldnff the system 
of monopoW which existed for the 
last twenty-ttv^ years, should oppose 
die present measure ; but thegrouads 
of dieir opposition wese the vatfy 
giiwiailn on 'wUdi )he doafidea t ly 
called upon the hotise to pass- the 
biU. 

Mr. C. Cohort opposed die bill, 
not because he was connected with 
any of the existing dock companies, 
for he had not a finthing vested in 
any of them, but on the ground that 

there 



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PARUAMEIinrAtY MBAIBS. 




Uiere:W9« alt jyvoi^t.iBpmdimrfltf- 

fident AOQ^moiDdyBi^ii , iov vi^r- 
chai^, and pMtk^My.i^ 4i0.pt« 
nfih9s-9£. SU JobB^ %djI St. Qlyi^. 

tbebiU b« leajj^.ai^Beo^ttiiMrthis 
day sU iBOHtltt. , « ,, « - . . «i 

^ir J. jKbrAf» in pasing tQ^eoond 
ifae s^ne^Miol^n^ xyu^ tbetfae TVindd 
iire gff asquib at th» tilde bliie»«yDd 
flueo cyf Str Catfaerins'-s (aim^y 
who had BO much esgag«d tba «|ta- 
tion o{^«igfatqe^ gentlengm s^d a 
half: (Latter*) Ue.aakl «igfateaQ 
geiiidemen and a hatf, becattw he 
aaw that 'Cighteea of the pixjeaion 
of the new docks had subscribed 
^^f>QQL each towards Ae nader- 
^hilst another of them had 
ibed-oiily 30,000/. The 
^ .\'q» which it was proposed to 
eveotthehewdoblu, had been sought 
•by theJpondondQck cqavpanv twenty*- 
fcur yieais iff^ and reKised for very 
■gpod na^ttUfr Jf tbaie were any 
grounds for showing greater- &yaur 
to t^;B^w dopk ppippaiHr than had 
formerly be^sbpwa tp tf^liondon 
^dock coiapu^ let tne supporters of 
thebiU^tatethejo^ ..Thecwynason 
why» in his opinion, the proposed 
new 5x>f|ppa;)g^.yi3i4uqMl. to aw for 
the land u) ^pj^qn, was^.tbe death 
^qf'her j^ipvsfin^^^.qii^en Ghar- 
lQtte,ywhp Ud, depai^ <jra«n.rthis 
world to^i^infinitely '^h9lterr,4jh^^ 
CbaiPlotte hadaajg^t^est in.the Jand, 
and duiiog her ioM^i^ aliims 
been an uhwiUingn^Tto ^iffdc&e 
with it. If it had peep,propp9^ to 
build the dp^ in anj^.^pthei^ |^lace, 
he would have had less objedlonto 
the measure ; but as it yrm be^ op- 
posed it with alibis heart' 

Mr, J. Sj(iitk opposed the bill, 
becapse he thou^tnat .the erection 
of new decks was unneoesaaxy* 

Mr, Manning said» that having 
presented a petiticHi from the London 



. CA it JbiaM|r«M|i^oiet]ttnauRae« 

j<9€ fin frofkAim^ dochshbeiag i»* 

quired by jfte tr^«f Laddini, he 

oouU flaletbit Ifa»/iian4c»i dock 

^msMf Ittd «iiU) a ^pM qitanti^ 

iriMdc](ftei] 



of.$|iarerQom^Mdri] 
finished MUiaga.wfaieh^ eonldf ^be 
eM9pl0ad >tf ^dMT ^ftooninodation 
.wese^retinvQdti' - > ? . • - .- 
. Jlfv. 7« HWssnappmndxxf the 
iiaw'Uill-^ ' f^ ' 

havingv- pv^tented * tWo polatirtiiB 
againpl tins biH|. it shoirid W^ his 
most detenmed OKiadiiioa. 

Mr. Walkwihi^ that the. leal 
ffl^H^ of thfi^ioppowoa was» and 
mdeed it so appeared firom papars 
which had ba«i dis^boied among 
memberB^ fbom ttaedesiie^f the East 
and West iiuiia^ and London dodc 
oompfinie^ to m«i|i)ain, Ifc^ moao- 
ix>ly, which was» be thot^ht, iofu- 
rious to the ^enenl trade of dte- port 
ofLopdon* > . . 

Mr. GrmfeU repliedi. and said 
.tbatao fiur from 10,000 pecjple being 
required to quit their dw^othap,. the 
whole amount would n«l eweed 
.^,000 ;,iBnd.oiit of MOO m 1»2«0 
Jiousel^oldersiatha4>reoioete'Qf Sc 
CatheoQii,, Ij|||efe.were300whofa«d 
aibKady.ffivea d^a^r. sJgp^tMVeain fib- 
'V^uroftheibilL ^.^ -i^ 

The house divided, whentb^jaaai- 
> ber» nfe^er- ^ •- -p. -r . y -t 
T' JFoc- the .second xeadiiM^ 7.4-*- 
^^kginastrit, £i9-"-M^rity» ^ 
, Tie Cka^Kefkxr M tiiM B^^ 
moved tb^t the 911^ of the 4b^ be 
fjead for thevhouse reariviiig- ilsdf 
r.iote a 4iaiunittee of »u|^« 
r The order havif^ been read, and 
the hotise haying lesylved itself iolo 
theaaid oommutteebi ^ . 

Mr. UearrifiS' J^ved th^ there be 
«^;iante4^ hJs.ma^jes^y ^ sumootjait- 
p^ceedio^ 4,831/.,. ^ the^puuspose «f 



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PASUmBNf AlYH]ttM»«& 



379 



theuM'idv^ ^ Jvuwqr to the alat 
day oi^aieddMMK^ 1834. /' 

' ofn»[^nBi fowthm^iagMtMi 104 ' 

.haftiifof &.bMuido<tMdb/' *^ ''^ 
.'U«^0OCUpte (Mkybigt>(Mii|tege 
«f purchwii^* togethb^#i0rlbOteat- 
peaKsibwkkniBlflo W jiSescif^oa 
and public exhifaition o^^iMe'^M- 
iaitywof fioMift ^Md^^iUoi^ to 

ez{KOiai<)tiMM'd«ioitf oliib attd 

«i i«^ j>i>cili<ttd'^" toidingp ouk 
MMdv^ afid>«ia<N)eii0tUstto Bjpaidrfli 

Tbe ii«cl vcte fM<^ 10^,507/: 
-to cBBmifwA cmfg6 ot cms ^obqh-* 
geaciMi^tlie year 1894^ 

19MS7/^ was piopoaed for ibe 
' «q)eni^ crf^lheidisetnbocEHMl inflitia. 

OfknidiBima o!)jcx:ted to die 
ateoianl'iil^'th^ gnuai; iHiieh, alter 

tWliMiM^^eailftaea, theehair-f 
i6aii'Te|MM!'{>m^rMs> ^^lobtidned 

- The^Mei^the^t^&etieoetti 
redKng of the aKen Wl%ei!^ moi^ 

Afr* Hume Toae aiid cxjMSfi^d tSi 
ifltentiQft'ii^ 'dgMe Ae meaanre in 

1M8 to ilie' yeak* #79di ^ petiod 
dnnii^ wuMki'the* trttef^foHmftyof the 
^duairy nvMentaiigifid and diatmbed 
vjFarpreKiKKr 10 aveurawiiy itnaoi 
not been oMundered'Heceflsafy by 
pttfiafiMnt to intM miidMen vntk 
nBarbitntty power whidi tbealioi 
bin oonfeia. Tbat this* faouae feeb 
1S24.] 



-teait ^wMiWbe iiiteMiettf 

tinte the eximittieeorpoiverBaoQo^ 

iXHttiitUlibnttI} ^/Mdtk even if diey 

were ndt so» ooidd not be exercised 

'wftheot €V«ldtCy'; and tbatihe prin* 

ilit)toli^f this bill are eofUzaiy to die 

liberal spirit of the Briti^ conadta* 

-tton, anaifiMlile tothe foest^iiit^Krepta 

'ti^the-^viliM^orlc^'and in aoootd- 

*«iteetitdy^ sifth'ti)^ impontijliled de- 

blMlSoQs BAtil <9texiical acts of Aq 

7^ SfMer DttAag again read 

' dn^' ameMhk^At, \l<vad lat^ter foU 

Ibved, o&aecMntof dkewoxd **cMi- 

adtoddlihl'' Which intt Hbai found 

Mr* Hume ivas about to explain^ 
aft^asecondteadinff'ofthe j' 
followed by -a seoo^ peal of 
tor. fiCrie8of**Spoke.'^ Hfel 
* no -wim to Explain; allfae^eantedta 
81^ iraa^ diet there was no s(^h 
t?ord as ** cobOMS^tn^* ' jA die 
paper, die woidrWcve^^^^oiitiiMnlal 




Spetd^ otdfered die paperto 
' bd handed to die ittotei': 

Xti Btttne pieaente|^anodier^opy« 
<%i ^^rtdeh tii^ W41 M6dditt he pro- 
ipMd.' ••■•' ^'■•'" '•■ ''■' ^ 
' the aihendmeitlfii^ptfiy 'tod tier 
'gadved^ividiK>ut%ifititfon^ ' 
' tJpon dto'iiidlWn'^b^'dielrill be 
nowToafl, a secqDffi tfflie» tne speaKer 

A ihettib^ ikt' the ' opppaifidn 
behefaea^said; d^'du^ Yioisa had it 
Thb hbui« ^ifed tMh' d^ ^ 

i S«^ A 19t9dh>tb in did:%«f W 
addressing 4^ hbiise-^(fte rtnhing 
t)i stMdfigeflB prevtoted phn ffooa 
' being bKarljrheara.) ' He tcsdi tttider* 
stood to demddie%ht <rfdienietti* 
ben to express themsebes fmSy 
upon dte conduct offote^ poteiw 
S tate8» 



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274 



PARLIAMEa^TARY ItflBATSS. 



tates, and to rejpel the contrary prin- 
cijpl'e implied in tlie obeervations of 
fab hon. friend (Mr. N. Calvert) 
They were bound to' call things by 
their right names. If those sove- 
rei^s were tyrants, no gentleman 
could be wrong in designating ihem 
acoordinely. It was not simwf their 
right to do so ; it was their duty to 
ute that language towaidsthem wfaidi 
would best express the opinion the 
parliament of Ekigland . entertained 
oftheir conduct, and to admonidithe 
peopk of En^uid of the steps which 
had been taken to give due ezpres* 
rion to that opinion* When his hon. 
friend talked of those sovereigns 
having no means to defend them- 
selves in thiS'house, he seemed to 
ibi^ that diey wcfe defended by 
their guards and annies<^that irri- 
tated tyrants had kMig arms, and could 
strike those whom they never had 
seen. The house had no other means 
of exercising iti power but those 
strong expressioDS of the public feel- 
ing tnioi^ its agency, which fire- 
quendy had the effect of rescuing the 
nctims of extreme and abused aiMio- 
rity. He hoped that his hon. frioid 
would not attempt to deter the house 
from this important exercise of its 
duty. It was not usin^ the language 
of abuse to those princes, but the 
language of solemn declaration in 
favour of liberty, and to prove to 
them incontrovertibly the general de- 
testation in which they hdd the 
crimen of tyranny. 

Upon the progress of the bill he 
would make only these observations. 
It had undergone very ample dis- 
cussion—much more discussion tlun 
he had hoped for— and he should 
have concluded that it was not likely 
that any thing more of weight could 
be added to it, but for that promise 
which fell from the rigl^ honour- 
able secretaiy for foreign affairs the 



other day. He hoped tet if the 
bill did pan, it would be presented 
to the public under more favourable 
circumstances of justification ihan 
those in which k stood at present 
The argument was nowoonsidenybly 
BimpiiDed ; the bill waa no loi^ger 
defended vptm the ground of power 
inherent'in the precoeative. While 
on the other iniid he was equally 
reaify to admits that akhoY^ the 
right of foteignera to land on these 
shores had been alwayaaMowed, th^ 
right of • regulating that f^cep&oa^ 
and the residence of those who were 
received, must remain with tfaepar- 
liament; The right of passing a law 
to regulate the receptiqp and reai*- 
denceof ali^ia^ codd not be se- 
riously questioned ; the only questioii 
was, as to the nobcy of passing sucb 
a law under tt^e presentcixcunastan- 
cesofthecountiY» 

He concluded diat no gentleman 
in the house would deny pariianient 
that power. Every country must have 
a right to pass bills of exception and 
exclusion, and more especially as 
they went to control the n^hti of fb« 
reigners to land and reside, seeing 
that that power was to be considered 
almost in the light of an European 
law : but the simject for their con-^ 
sideration was, the policy of the mea* 
sure at the present time. Their vn^ 
ceston well knew that they had die 
right, but they seldom \ised it; 
thinking, as it would appear, that 
the disadvantages greatly outweighed 
any benefits to l^ attained by the 
use of it, because of the fecilitiea 
which it would have afforded to ah 
.oppressive government to cover ite 
r^urs under the petence of watob- 
ing strictfy over foreigners. Every 
one who hstd traveUra in foreign 
oountries .knew, that with respect to 
nations, character is power, andr that 
England was particularly straig in 

that 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



U7^ 



ocsifcd ^iMotlififttttwis^ it W89 sud, for 



v^adi he wasnot atall thankful --he 
tbMghttfaey tfTere against the general 
prinoi^de for which' he w<nikl<x)n* 
toiii Itiras said that, mits present 
kmki no less than* 9^000 foreigners 
had < been withdrawn iiom its ope- 
ratioin : he disliked it so much the 
more. If tiiose 9,000 were ndifo- 
mgoiOBf they' wmdd tend gseadytD 
kflsien Ike cqppositiDa <0 the bill* He 
woidd ndher 'dntatt'shduki kein- 
chided ia it. With a bill so ob- 
BOKioos in ils pvincaple, the wider 
the estent ef 'openttioa tiie better ; 
becaittse the general eense of indig- 
nation and injustice to which it 
would give rise would be so much 
more jxiweiful in its manifestation. 
Afl tothe statesaent which had been 
haiaided,^ tfast this power bad never, 
been abused, he could not allow the 
assertion to- pass unoontradicted. 
He had Yiqpposlsd the case of general 
Goorgaud, who after so many years 
offei^iftdeervice to his unfortimate 
master, had been cruelly treated. 
He thqnght that the conduct of ^ 
vtimment -in refusing himpermissKMi 
to kndy was nothings less than ilH«* 
besslandimgentlemanly; he would 
not attribute it, however, exactly to 
thegovemment, because they werenot 
cfptiseA' at the moment of what their 
aceate wetfe doing, although they 
afterwasds jus^fied it Tl^ was 
another iase in which he coaklnot 
but tlwDk that the power had been 
still more abiaed— bealluded Id that 
of baron Eben, who had been ban- 
ished by the l^ig of Fortc^ after 
siKteen or seventeen years of zealous 
and fidtUid service ; and yetgovern'^ 
ment, 'tlieugh they oould not charge 
him vrith any crime, would not per- 
nut Urn to IsumI, becnise he/was eaid 
to have beea oppoaed to 4he bngly 
govenunentinrati]^ These tanrd 



oases showed that the powers given 
vreie liable te abuse, amd that diey 
had been abused. As to madame 
Monthak>n and others, exckided on 
the general principle of not admit- 
ting any of the partisans • of Buona- 
parte, it viras clearly most ungenerous 
treatment for a free government 
The house should seize mis opportu- 
nitv of proving Ao the holy. aUianoe 
and to the people ^Europe, 4hat all 
tiiose bonds wtdoh bad unhappily 
united them for a time were new die- 
floIved--4hat the interests of this 
oountry were no k)nger interwoven 
with tisea system* No opportunity 
oould be more favourable for Hmt 
purpose than the :prom8s of the bill 
now in discussion* An opinion pre- 
vailed abroad, that this bill waspaas- 
ed at the instij^ationof die hoiy afli- 
ance, and thatit oouldnot be r^>ea]ed 
without their Qpns^at direetly ex* 
preaied. He hoped that the house 
would prove most fiiUy and satisfoo- 
loriiy that the opinion was ground- 
less; and to sive them an opportu- 
nity for so doing, he would now 
move, that the biU berend a second 
time ^is day mx months. 
. Mr, Canning TOBBy rather for the 
fulfilment of^a pledge<into winch be 
had been seduced • a fow nights ago 
by the sof^peiaoasion of the honour- 
able member for Aberdeen (lauffh- 
terjytiian from any admission that 
he could make of the question re- 
aring more ample argument ; and 
sull less did he feel it necessaiy to 
rise fbr the purpose of making any 
acknowledgment that in the expres- 
sion which he had eiven on any 
former occasion of discussing the 
principles of this bin, his own sen- 
timents required any, even die slight- 
est qualification. The honourable 
gentleman, in a style half compli- 
mentary to him^ and half composed 
of serious Qennire on the measure 

itself. 



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itself, had done fabn the faonoorto 
appose the prindple of the bill to 
that which he deemed to be .the 
geaenl character and geiuiiB of Us 
(Mr. Canning'B) policy. The ho^ 
nourable genUeman might theiefom 
be subjeded to some smpriie if be 
were at once to declare .his lenki^ 
ments upon the< bUL if, however, 
the honourable gentkiDan should 
find any tibme contradictory to the 
opinions wfai<£ he (Mr. Hume) had 
hnneA of him (Mr. Cannmg) in the 
aigaments he was now about to use 
in smypoit of the measoie — if he 
abould find any thing whidi be 
m^ conceive to be opf)osed to the 
opinions which he (Mr. Canning) 
had lidmself professed, he would en- 
able the honourable gendeman to 
thread iboee oontradiotion»— 4o re* 
concile those seeming contsaiieties 
in his (Mr Canning's) expressions, 
by producing, in one word, the due 
of the labyrinth— ^e shibdeth of 
Ins (Mr. Canning's) politics and 
views upon this and every other pab« 
lie question; and that word was 
*< England." (Cheers.) His wish 
was only that of bdn^ fiyund siding 
on all divisions of opinions with the 
interestB of his country. (Cheers.) 
He vrss desirous of disclaiming the 
conskleration of all questions tmecU 
ing other stateB-*\f^edier they re- 
garded the material interests of other 
states, the wish^ of other govern- 
ments, or the fe^ng& of odier peo- 
ple, exoepl as iisir as those, wshes, 
tiiose feelings, and duse interests 
concurred ami consented to the safely 
and the interests of England* (Loud 
cheers.) 

Perhaps of all cjoestions ever agi- 
tated by discussion within thne 
walls^ this was the one which was 
most subject to suffer from the reign« 
ing vice of all discussion at tfaia day 
— the-vigour of exa^eratioii. If it 



was <IO'ibe stated- d. pmn witheul 
reference totiineB andcincumstancea^ 
it would' be tfaooght so^ moDBtsoMS 
and absurd as to. m suffioHat to es* 
cite the whde oommunUy to «mia» 
To hear the queation diapuled, thai 
the state haddie power ee regulaliiig - 
the reoepdon of loieignersiupon oar 
shores^ and dieir abode afisr landing, 
was tlurt which eouldiMt be reoe&vw 
edserioodybyaiiy whoi^ouldhear . 
it argued, as a fpoeal prpposition ; 
and yet all die .mftoeimailibyk of lim 
debate had been raised by ccmqiliog 
this assumption udtb 8<»ne pnypoaU 
tions as t» the conduct, of the so«&- 
reigns of Europe. 

He feared that he had to ferfeiteooia 
of the ^oodopinion, and anuch-of the 
oomplimentBoy .expiession, . of die 
honouiable gentkoaasi^' wfaen he adr 
mitted, diat of the two classes of 
aigument which had been cUeAy in 
use in the course of tfaedisoosnon--- 
the one detoted to asoertain the prin* 
dple of the measupe^the odier moie 
conversant in the detaib--4ie wae 
inclined to give most oonsideratioii ^ 
to those iiHudiOODfinMd the princii- * 
pie; and the princnle onoe estab* 
ushed, thoi^ itmigatafter be abown 
that there were errore which aocom- 

riedthe exerdse of it on particu 
occasions, it was still goodiordl 
times and drcunutanoes, diatbeing 
a prindple of diat fefce and geii»- 
taJity it could not be doseawi^ and 
that the details must ooosecneBftly 
form but a secondary consideratiOQ.. 
Hesaidthat the right must-faa^e ex- 
isted, and imist continue.to exist, at 
aH times and under all orcmn- 
stances; he did not thereibra say, 
that at all times and under all dr* 
cumstanoes the power v^- equally 
applicable* But he would say, not 
meaning to take the power of the 
ciown apart from the authority of 
parliament, that if it were feoad thai 

no 



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^77 



ao-fl«iohpQi#er as Ae^ of caotikBkk-^ 
iitt alteOB- BM>re than nateai^boflOi 
smeieti eidsted» and upon ai^ new 
and imeicpeGted emeigieAcy the waat 
of tliat power slMiiild ber Mu that 
weald besuch a* state of thiiigB< as 
(Mj^ODit^lD 4>e>i^0wed to exists 
even lif Idas teasporaty bill, should 
espie;^ and fae trasted dmt expiee k 
wrndd, wUtiDUt anodier lenewaL 
(LcNid oheen.) He repeated his 
eamert hi^ atad expectationy that it 
weidd<expo6 wkboutanotiyBr leoew- 
^ (CMets.) ' But.efen in that 
eaae^ withfespedito the priooiple of 
power, ^govemiaent^ of whomsoever 
composed at the tune, would not do 
bs^xA^ if k suffered the principle to 
lapseuUo amiihiJation> or if b3rneg* 
botthc^ duMddafterwands allow the 
pmrar itedf altuMtlier to eiKapefiom 
their faaads^ (Oieen.) 

He h6ped after this that he^hould 
net be taimted by the honourable 
gendeman with die .aocosation of 
fl gowiny any thin^ out as a lure for 
popufariljr, when ne thus candidly 
avowed tmit his only consideration 
was howio preserve the prinGiple of 
die measure ; and diat being once 
effected, thathewias litde anxious 
about the details, and was not at all 
dttposed to undertake to show how, 
by whom, and on what particular 
oocasionB, tfaatjioweff diouldrbe now 
eseecised* When he said <«now," 
he wished' not to be niisunderslotod. 
liadxa^iiment had been, wasted on 
die question of sitiKdio& : hcnoucable 
^eofleineiL had gone back to fimner 
times to show tmt the peweor was or 
was not in &e'Orow)D, without the 
pariiament; and in :his opinion: the 
pseoedeals ^prodnced were eqasdly 
strong in proof for either side en imt 
affiuBient The power had undoubt- 
edSy been eiiennsed by the crown^-- 
atnneliineB widi, sometimes without, 
the eesnent of parUaioent : but k was 



absurd to be drawing comparisons 
between dve exercises of power, with 
r^ard to the different parts oi the 
oonstkntion Ttcfw^ and in former 
times. Suppose a preoedent were 
^wn of^E^ry VIII. having exer* 
ckbA thtsrpowerwidi the consent of 
naitiaxnent, would that imply die 
least rasetnUhncd between the con* 
stitutional functions of parliament 
then and at die present? What ! 
would they call that a oonstitutaonal' 
exercise of power, in the received 
sense of that expression, as applied 
to parliament at this day-«-that par- 
liament which voted the kin^*s pro* 
elamatibn laws? Gould diat be 
deemed a constitutional decision ac- 
cording to the meaning of the term 
as it£)od now? The parliament 
dien was without any oontfol what« 
ever : it was only in the nature of a 
larger council, with no more power 
of restraint than existed in the privy 
council. But he^ himself did not 
want die argument, idle as it was to 
talk of the eonstitutional restraints of 
the parliaments of those times. He 
did not wish to prove that the power 
vras originally wkh the crown, that 
it was inherent in the prerogative, and 
that H &d not inure to the parlia- 
ment. It was matter of perfect in- 
difference to him, urtiedier H inhered 
in the crown to be exercised by the 
cfown, or in the crovm to be exei^ 
cised vrith the ooiu^ of die parli^^ 
ment ; or if it were lodged first with 
tfaeparliament'to be shaped bv die 
parliament in its exercise, with the 
assent dfdie crown as a biaj^eh of 
the paiiiaaMSit: there must be a 
power lodged somewhere in the con- 
stituticm to deal widi alieos, if it 
should be found necessary, more 
sunddttonly than with their own sob- 
jecfcs. (fW.) 

The (juestion had been argued as 
if diis biU wouhllbnn an exemption 



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to the practice of all other eounlxieB* 
k ivus.me^tedly urged how odious 
it would 08 in thiem lo retain a power 
wUch.foi itaobjeotionaUe natuie 
was not claimed by the govenuMsit 
of other states. The wument was 
quite the other way. £igland was 
the- ezc^rtion. This country alooe 
stood wiuiont the continual eafiistente 
and Dpequent exercise of that power. 
(Hear, hear*) He defied those who 
oljected, .to produce fincts. Show 
him any state in Europe, from the 
most arokraiy to those supposed to 
be the most free — from the hi^iest 
degsee of despotism, through all the 
lange of political inventions by which 
states were governed, down to the 
most widely spread democracy—* 
whether in ancient or in modemhis- 
Uny, which had ever consented to be 
without &e jx>wer of controlling the 
abode of aliens nkore sigidly than 
native subjects. Whv, then, was 
this country to be deprived of a 
defence which no other state of 
any kind, or at any period, would be 
without? Why was this country to 
divest itsdf of a power essential to 
its own seciurity^ and which occasions 
might arise of bringing necessarily 
into action ? Another argument used 
by honourable gentlemen opposed to 
this^ measure was, that the a^uisition 
of power over aliens resultinff from 
it would be inconsistent with free- 
dom. Why the experience of all 
history went the other way. He had 
before said that all governments had 
had this power, but more particularly 
was it exercised by those govern- 
ments which were considered the 
best of ancient times* Look at the 
ancient lepublics. of Greece and 
Rome. Were eentlemen altogether 
to forget their chissics on this occa- 
sion, and overlook the instances 
which they afforded bearing on die 
case? Let them look at Spaita, 



wfaerethe* oondition of tfaer.stianger 
was little better than that of the uik^ 
fortunate Helot* LookaitbapoUshed 
rwal of Spaita-»-Athena; smdwhail 
was the eomjition of the alien who* 
wentio reside Aenfc for a tine ^ He 
was, in the £ist place, to put himself 
during hiff flfcayt under the piotectioir 
of some patron p OTr in deinilt ifaere^ 
q£, was subject lo every kind of in* 
convenience. But even under tlie 
patron, he was liable to have hift 
goods sokl, and. his ipersoi) sent to ' 
prison, for non-payment of the alien 
tax. Look at mme— at ancient 
Rome, in the days of hsr oeatest 
freedom. Was thealien theo^eotof 
any peculiar care ^ . On the contsary,- 
he was rather the object of pecvUeF 
jeakNisy. It was necessary that there, 
too,, he should place himself undev 
the protection of some* patron ; but 
that did not esEempt bun from the 
liabili^ to be sent £roa tha dlfi 
without notice. Aliens were some- 
times sent out, not by. one or two ait 
a time, but fieq uendy in whole doovoB; 
together.^. Why <£d he mention 
these facts ? Not for the purpose of 
uiging a» reasons why we shoidd 
now act in a similar manner^ butto> 
show that at all times such a .power 
was ezereised bv those states most 
jealous of their needom^ and that the 
|K>wer was never held 4o be «t all 
mconsistmt with that freedom. Look 
at the practice of this country in an** 
cient tunes. It. was tnie that aliens 
were. invited, and peculiar protectioifc 
given to aUen merchanftSi. W1i|b? 
Wly because the only men ma 
tevetted in tlv9se d^ were mer- 
chants. Did it follow, that becaoK^ 
encouragement was given 4hem, the 
same should be held out at the pr»* 
sent day?; This brought him to* 
notice what was the radical error o€ 
the aiguments of gentlemen on this 
question — that they made 119 distino- 

tioik 



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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 



%79 



tion between the policy of an ancient 
state and tliat of a modeim. He 
meant'betvreen the policjr of a new 
atateandtbatofa!nold. Atthatpe- 
riod of the Roman state, when the 
fieht between the HopatU and* Gu- 
nam was to deckle wiiether Alba 
waift tor be Rome, or Rome Alba— at 
that time the adacription of a set of 
i^Bs among the ni^mibers of Roknan 
citizens might be a matter of deep 
expediency, wfaick oodd ik)t after- 
waids exist. The jeak>ii&y of such 
an adscription in a {\xtare period <^ 
the Roman history was not incon- 
sistent with the former measure* In 
the one ease a new state approved of 
what was then' expedient ; in the 
other, an old was jealous of what 
it looked upon as encroaelmient 
(Hear.) 

Why the rape of the Sabine wo- 
men was considered a measure of ex- 
pediency to supply the wants of the 
young state, but no man would go so 
&r to assert, that because such a 
measure had <Mice been expedient, 
it would be equally expedient that it 
should be restored to at the end of 
every lusinem, (Hear^ and laughter.) 
Yet it was by confounding two very 
dissimiliar epochs in the history of 
states, and arguing the nec e s sity or 
policy of certain measures in one be- 
cause they had been found to exist 
in the oth^, that gentlemen who oi^ 
posed this bill haid so- em^xniay 
deceived themselves. Wi&ntgomg 
back to examples of suacient states, 
we had b^ne ns a striking instance 
in modem. Let the house look at 
the two Britidi states which had once 
been the same people-^^which had 
afterwards separatea, and now, by 
their amity, attracted the attentionof 
the world as the two greatest and 
most free states : and here let him 
observe, that when he spoke of, and 
admitted, the freedom of America, 



he mnst add, that we in this cotmtry 
enjoyed as much freedom as was en- 
joyed there or any other part of the 
world, and that our freedom was 
watched over and protected by a 
monarchy, which, so far from beins 
a check, was in reality its best and 
safest guardian. But look at the 
policy of the two governments : the 
whole objckJt of America was&cUiW 
of admission ; the whole object with 
us was jealousy of admission. They 
wished to increase their lieges— >we 
wished to secure those we alreadjr 
poflsessed^— to prevent them from 
going off, and to prevent others from 
coming to us. The difference of 
this policy was not the difference 
befween despotism and freedom- 
no : one was the the policy of a new, 
the other that of an old state. (Hear, 
hear.) 

He would ask, in yrtai part of 
Europe could Englishmen travel 
with such complete freedom^ as for- 
'eigners could in this ? . On the con- 
tinent, a man could not move be^ 
yond a certain limit without his 
passport, as had been truly observed 
by the honourable and learned gen- 
tleman (Mr. Sergeant Onslow) ; be- 
yond that limit he felt the chain 
round his leg, which he possessed no 
means of lengthening. He did not 
say that we should adopt that policy, 
hit that thet« ended the comparison 
of this country with othe^r states with 
ledpect to> the treatment of ali^ur. 
Bnt were the restrictionB he spoke of 
confined to one spot of the continent > 
Wett they peculiar to Turkey or 
Russia, or Austria or France, or 
places said to be still more favourable 
to freedom than any of thiese ? Why, 
a young Englishman was kept m 
custody some time back for a whole 
nieht, for galloping at night over the 
bncbe of Geneva. What consolation 
would it be to this young English- 
man, 



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igamf who rode over, the bridge M 
Clai^va, and almost shook theUtdei 
lepublid to its foibdaliox) (alaiigbK 
wnether hisimprisonmeiii was joa^ed 
by tlie hoaour^hle ^nd lesirpe^ ^r > 
tfemah^s (sir X >jtac4^^ frieod . 
SidmondiyOr by'his^r. (Japnij^'j^. 
arithtaeticalfipienil m tfiancifh-T¥^ 
after experiencing all . the iiHxm-* 
venience of tracing in foreign 
ootmtries, some young fingliahtnivi^ 
lers returned,' aind dedaied that an 
aMen bifl here woold be a (fiagcaoe to 
tte country. 

He bad said thus much of the iB8a*> 
rare as a general principle reco^odud 
bf die states most attached to (ree* 
dom. He had looked vpon acertain 
power over aliens» as that whi<^ 
ought to be possetoed permaneDdy« 
He would not ^ into me details of 
the present bill, or the alteratioDs 
wfaicn it might or might not be 
neoessaiy to make, if it were to re- 
main permanently on ow statute* 
book. He woula not say whether 
die measure which might be event- 
taUy decided upon to supply ^e 
place of the bin sWijbl be a registry ; 
but without entering into any detads 
of that kind,,^ he would repeat, tint 
when this bill expired, it woidd be 
neeessaiy to introauce some measure 
with respect to the power which the 
executive ou^t to possiess over for- 

Zers' in mis country. He was 
d, Aien, that he should not satis* 
fy the honourable member opposite 
(Mr. Hume) when he not omy de- 
clared himself in favour of the mea- 
sure before the house, but of the 
general principle out of which it 
arose. But to come to the bill itself, 
as a modification of the general pria-k 
ciple, he would contend that it was 
r^ered necessaiv by the drcum'* 
stances in which the oountry was just 
nowplaced. Hedidnotmeantosay 



lhipibit|i«far was <iuijr 
Opuld^im^lo, i^^cmuAr%\Sar iauf 
thifig wbiob llmgBeneiMudd^ttii, 
as .a^nst< itself : be belMivftd.tew 
wa« inhei)eiit'in.< ^ iSn^iab oonsli* 
tfiMQi^4rTbe'mMit ^ «*iHMtiea c£ 
every English iMd-ov^faatwUcknias 
admvaUy ^sakidMlied «> «h*e>0ff i»>. 
reigtt lieason»>an<l'nei>8Qfier4tBelfte 
be fitaciiteied wkh'that poiitei iiwi 
the contamkKtioB of wfaieh«h»€QDB«- 
try oou^d have «ny xwisotk to itei; 
W there was,neiKert]k^e«j pro s tH. 
danger* Hie danger <wps^«haidttse 
wasa>vi0foiil;fStni^f goaag' en -be- 
tween prin«ipkSi and 4l^'O0Bntiy 
waa 4he kwg<establ]ahad,>seoaie« mad 
certain asybvn -^dtlotog n^t it 
<»ixtiiiue ao) ibr tbe^beatal. ^iear, 
hear.) ^ 

He wodd not aay ai» the aeMo 
which he faadiaetiirDaDlA— ^Hes^ 
hope may be laid down ;" bttt be 
would say, that here bodi paMes hod 
down, or at least ifbofM cease fittm 
hostility ; that this couatiy^.whfifat k 
affofded a shelter and piotectian to 
bpth,« should not be the ^sam ibr 
the renewal of their bostilitMB*^ 
sbodd not be the foige in wiieh 
each mig^ again arm hmawlf ^ir 
the contest. }Ie Was anxtoua* for 
tins, not mer^y for the sake of Ike 
peace of other oountiiea, tkeu^ ^ 
p^u» and union of nationa in mtf 
with us should be by no iteans a 
matter of indtfiference t» .w aft n^ 
time ; bat he waa aoxiots tkat tba 
nentealiiyshouki be. pmsmid , for 
tlv$ Intersst* foplhe«alelyofBn|^aBd 
heiaeE (Hear.) 

But hoPouraMe geiitlsniffn oppo- 
site w«re of opttttoii that in ttna 
stiua^e England dh^uld Ilka tka aiia 
of tateuhr* laifoil her basnet in ike 
cause of freedom, and takc'untar ksr 
pMeolioB all dioB^wkowQKfowsw- 
abk lo that prindple, even ikaii^ 



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281 



difcnHe^' iMiimA: miiterhoti; g»b>i 
tlBB[itt)mMittetiid<ftli^^ otiHik 

g» Mtezatfihft liid' meiftiotted; tuA 

OllHM>fMK>i MTfr MdO^ HHUJ^ ilO' j^ 

a fenenl^ pttddple of nteuMlilf had 
been pmmilgttei liy'lte twempi 
of fii^bml, ^oppoiM ^y {Hurba^ 
mevi, fmd vetoed by tbe geiji^ral 
Tiioe of ilhe people iafi ev^ p«rt, H 

be 'VMbtcd'-^ait the wii^ K>f tbe 
flbiVKCMii'^dioidd be coundnsKXed, 
tbe ^loe »f puMamciit, And the 
wmetion of Hie ^lie DfteiCim let 
at noi^gfat There were some half 
daMs who im^f of thia opkii<Mi, «iid 
omof defeMno&to HieseilieiKoioe of 
the* 80¥ereigB» the jmiiaaiefii) and 
the people, dhooldbeael-atuoti^ 
and to gradfy them gOreihtfieiit 
shmdd give i»p that sMd^r oouiae 
sMdtk it had hiihertopcnnRied. But 
befere tinse hon: getitlemen aaked 
tfaHtaaohcodceMDons Hhovid-be nude 
to them, they shouid have Am taried 
pH^amen^ not to endeanoor to pa^ 
cify the curteodifig parties^ btttto 
reMlve that-BittAand should plaee 
ilMir at dtf head of all the exiles of 
Eavope, ead dedate itself the advo- 
eate of tiMprmcit^es, and the zeA- 
ka siqppofter of meir qoarrels. If 
padfanwnt had oonsetit^ to this, 
then, of eons?, not only wo^ the 
ptaeotbiH berunnsoeaMiry but sdso 
dutt other measure, dieeActofour 
Ibnomr nentiality-^^he foieign ea- 
hilaiKit bffir*.^dbich an honoumble 
itnaber, wte^ Uaffsnentimi (B&. 
Oan^, (iiin«h^) had dedand to 
be iangfat wilh » nutdi iftisbMef lo 
theecoBtqr. SatifpaflisuBeaitcoaid 
htvs come to suoh a deteminatioii, 
in eomptittioe with the widfes of the 



hohouifiMe "gentlgihen bpposhe/ lie 
faadlitde dbtibt btit thdt in^shoif 
tiiti^th^y (the opponeritsi6fth^bin) 
WOtoldmetnsy^esbe bWigfedtq aj^ly 
to<He fegi^laturt for ^^e ^Hh mea* 
stte ; for if wfat thiey now songbt so 
etgerty'lrieTt to' be acobmpHdhed ac- 
cerding-ttotbeir dfeire', ^J should id 
a bhoit dme see nottiing in this 
country hat armaments fitting out 
agstost the desjxrts^ of Bdrope ;Vfor, 
tewever much it might f)e regretted, 
after the trial of strength winch had 
been made between Sie dontendijc^ 
parties, the power still lay with* them 
(the despots). Let him now put a 
case to his honomable and learned 
friend (sir J. Mackintosh). He^(s)r 
J* Maekihtodi) hadputdfT his'moflon 
resp^i n g the r^cogfiition of *the 
South Amencsbi states, oh the gromid 
that this cotmtry would consider any 
armament — i- 

Sit. J, MacUfOosKy (across the 
taW^)-**-** Any considerable arma^ 
men^ while the French army occu- 
pied Spain.*' 

Mr.' Chaining, — His hon. and 
learned fHend dad made l^e case 
stifl SUo n ger in ^ way in which he 
had noWput it— that he would con- 
sider any considerable armament 
fitted out'in Spain a^nst the South 
American states, whilst the French 
troops remained in the occupation 
of the former, not as a Spanish, but a 
FVeneh armament Now, he would 
ask him, would it not be qiute as 
reasonable to consider any armament 
fitted out in an Engli^ port to assist 
any of the contehcnng parties, as an 
E^li^ atmlunent, as it ^uLd be to 
suppose one fitt^ out in Spam while 
it was -occupied tonly by French 
troops, solely a French force ? And 
whatelse, he would ask, could be 
expected to be s^en iil our ports, but 
soch anittihents, if the foreign en- 
ISsttdent bill were lo be done away? 

They 



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Tbey could not be prevented* No 
pfaysioal means in dieir power could 
prevent aquadroms from being con- 
standy fitted out here in aid of tbe 
South American states. Why, then, 
we should go to war; but it wb 
because he did not wish to see this 
country fooled, bullied, cheated into 
a 1W w> much against her inteiests, 
in ewpequence of an abondomment 
of thai neutrality which she had so 
loudly prodiimedy that he would not 

S've up thalnowerby whicbit might 
i preventea; be would not part 
with that powers which, if given up, 
would make E^^land. the sCarti]^ 
place of the hostilities of Europe. 
(Cheers.) 

If we gave up this power, we ran. 
the chance either of exposing our- 
selves to the ridicule and contempt of 
Europe, ot to the suspicion that we 
did so for the purpose of taking ad- 
vantage, in a commercial point of 
view, of those speculations to which 
the want of such a measure would 
give rise. It .was now well known, 
mat the funds of the contending par- 
ties were recruited from our Ex- 
change, vrithout reference to any 
other consideration than the security 
which the borrower had to offer. In 
the best days of our constitution, it 
was known that hostile armi^ 
were led by English captains ; but 
here were the captains of English 
captains, whose resources were the 
springs on which the povrer of each 
side rested. The money-lender lent 
to each, and would lend wherever he 
cot a security. He should therefore 
be; Sony to trust the neutrality of the 
country to the mondi^ of mon^- 
lendeis ; for» get rid olthat bill (the 
foreign enlistment), and let Feidi- 
imnd once show a Iktle strength, and 
we shoidd soon see him, aided by 
capitalists of this country, and an 
e]q)edition sent firom our poits, mak- 



iiag anflfther effort to crush- the rinng 
li&rties of South America. (Cheers.) 
It was to prevent sudi a resultant he 
would be unwilling to pert vrith the 
power which the crown at pnesmt 
posBCflSed by the acts newinftroe. 
He did not wish to see finriand pla- 
cing herself at the head of the free- 
men of Europe. When he said tins, 
he trasted he need ik>t again by ex* 
planation guard himself against bemg 
supposed to entertain a eontnury 
wuHL He knew it was insinuafeed 
and asserted that the present bill ori- 
ginated, not vrith the English go- 
vernment, but with the jealousies of 
some of the continental governments* 
Against such an assertion, to which 
not a shadow of probability had been 
attempted to be given, he begged he 
mi^t be allowea to place his solemn 
denial (Hear.) He rejected the 
insinuation as unfounded and alto- 
gether false, (he used die term in no 
personally offensive mcmner.) He 
now declared, in the presence of the 
bouse, and he was gl^ that that was 
also in the presence of the country, 
that highlv as he valued the con- 
nexions of England with our fbiei^ 
allies* there vras no connexion with 
them, however valuable, which he 
would not most willingly sacrifice 
rather than originate any one mea- 
sure in that bouse at tbesii^ggestion of 
any of tbose allies. (Cheers.) The 
only part of the question to wnidbi he 
had now to look was, whether the 
provisions of the act before the house 
vrere too laige for its ol^eoL He 
took thatobject to be— what ? The 
punishment of the alien ? The im- 
prisonment of his person or the con- 
nscation of his property ^ No ; but 
the enabling the govenment of this 
county to remove from its dboies 
such anens, whose previous€»nduct» 
<Mr conduct in this coumry* mi^ 
have given rise to a just suspicion 

that 



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PARUAKENTARY DEBATBa 



383 



th^ he would tJbmt the tihM^ in 
ettfoyediieRk Bitt ennErBgaiouittfab 
icmotaly the alim had his appeal^to 
the fUiiy councii Hedid n6t n^ 
that siicD aoi aiipeal- to the coHnod 
«oidd«p«ove in itoelf^ai «iiBctaial 
hanritt' ^ hib lamo'iEii r hut it ga«t 
the affidr liuMieify; aed m this free 
ooonti^f^ litoe they eosoved publn. 
city ihef did- that whioh in ahnoit 
every came^ and paitiouterly of Rs«- 

riiUe imnifllins, laas a g;aBniil»e 
actii^ hoQestly. What could 
they do moie> adtniltiiie onee that 
some floch 'measure -as the preeoit 
ynm neoesaary f He would state a 
£Kt of recent occunence (within the 
bat fuitnight), which would shew at 
once the necesmty of this measuTe, 
and the maimer in which it was ex- 
eieised. It was his eood fortune^ a 
short thnesince^ to have discovered 
that a plot vras carrying on by some 
aliens in this country* likely in its 
nature to prove very iiijurious to their 
own« It was a plot fonnidsd>le in its 
end, and by no means contemptible 
in the means by which it was to be 
accomplished. He immediatdy in^ 
Ibnned his mht hon. ffiend (Mr. 
Feel) of the &ct, and he traced the 
matter so carelully as to arrive at the 
same information, through his own 
means, as he (Mr. Canning) hadnre>- 
▼iously given him. What vras tiieur 
conduct on this occasion ? Did they 
send the pnndpdi parties back to 
their own country to be there ex- 
posed lo the irritation of those sffiainst 
whom they had conspired ? (He had 
not, and mxM notstate, whether die 
coitf pirators were for a republic or a 
despoi^Baju) No; but they sent for 
the principal persoii engaged in the 
afiair, told him that they were av?are 
of vriiat he was doing, and gave hun 
the names of his aooomi^oes. The 
party admitted the fact vrithoiat hesi- 
tation. Th^ then told him to be 



more maefid of hit cendookin fatme 
1^ that ^My we(idd< transwit an ac- 
eonnt of tli^cinjunitanoe to hia go* 
veimmettW hut vrould conceal the 
names of 'the paities4 Did they on 
this oceas&oiE^jpesoit to the means 
which theactfaadiorixed them to use ? 
No; on the dontiBcv, they acted lo- 
waids^the parties with a. lenity wUbh 
tfa^ oould not expeot to have foond 
IB any other country in Europe. The 
loot he had thus stated was one winch 
occuned not a fortnight ago, and 
that, loo, at a time when he and lus 
r^ht hon. friend (Mr. Peel) were still 
in doubt whether they should con^ 
tinue the present bill or not. That 
occunence convinced them that they 
vrould not have performed their duty 
to the country had they not recom- 
mended a continuation of the act in 
it» present state, for a time at least 
Were diey, then, he asked, to sacri- 
fice a power, so used (for there had 
not been even the slightest insinua- 
tion of its abuse) ,-*-weEe thi^, he 
wouki repeat, to sacrifice sudi a 
power to the constitutional^^r, to 
6B into the mistake of an hon.mem- 
bei— 4he continental jealousies of 
some hon. gent, on the opposite 
side? A noble knd (Althorp)-, who 
seldom made any suggestion which 
was not weU founded, had su^ested 
that a bill might be biought in [in 
lieu of the present alien bid), oy 
whidi aliens might in this country 
be punished for anv attempts against 
their own. The nciAe lord had some 
experience in bills, as he had atpn^ 
sent ^t one (the county courts' bill) 
on hi» hands, and he must be aware 
of the many unexpected difficulties 
which sprung up in framing a mea- 
sure so as to meet all olgections. He 
would just advise him to try his hand 
at a bill, which would subject a fo- 
reigner to trial in this countiy for 
treason aindnst his own. The thing 

uH 



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PARUAMENf ARY BEBATES. 



wwddbetfeeWandtiiifireoedeBted al 
least Qnklitig #ief)l9^ona» as to 
poMtshing die^rime) dit name of 4he 
accused, and all ihe •oiicimsteaeea 
eomncted ivith it« heMFOuld stiH ad- 
fise tbe fioble lord hist tdtiy bifl ha&d 
at libat, ^oHniffkt met hewcsM home, 
and lie woiud' afterwaids diacov^ 
dni his countyoowtE)^ bill was a 
BMHure K^ and trivial iil its aatave 
eottpaied wkb it. The- atlemfH: 
frcmU mdce faim^aidauaiiiled widi se» 
vnal ^uftB mKch Mnnch he was not 
acquainted before^ 

That some measure 6h6uld be de» 
vised by which a certain power over 
aliettt sbotdd be granted to theocown 
al the expimtion of the pcesent law, 
he woumI repeat; but in the mean 
time,^^ present would act upon the 
pnneiple- that prevention was belter 
fhto cure, and he thov^ it bett^ 
to act in tbat way which wotdd secure 
Ihe iiAeresIs of this country without 
fnculpatmg indbvidiBls. He would 
repeat, &en, that in tiie present state 
of the world sudi a measure as diat 
before the house was necessary. 
What satisfectbn Would it be to aby 
fereign power f^amst which secret 
combinations were plotting, and by 
whom- we might beoilledto account; 
or (for that was too humiliating a 
phrase) by whom we might be-ao» 

' cused of stnfermsr such practices to 
^be carried on-^'^Hat satisfaction, he 
*would aA, would it be'to say that we 
had taught the party j and wete about 
totry him l^ a Utw made for the pur* 
pose? Sudn a prbbeeding would 
ieiOt b^ w) much our proper policy as 
'to lake ineans by which'the practice 
mi^ht 1)6 'prevented altogether* fife 
lidiliitted uiat, according to the pr^ 
iseiit law; the innocent was often sub^ 
*ject to ineoiivenience as well lis Hbe 
guihy. That must be the ^eet of 

'tdt geueral lam : ^byilie very nateire 



i^tfaem, the inoooent must be* sub* 
jected to inconv^iience. To <lelect 
the guilty, it would be necesaaiy to 
cast4he net very wide. 

He must, before he sat down, pro- 
test against ano^ier species of -exi^ 
ffemtion which he found to exist oa 
Siis ^oestion. He- meant tet dis* 
{position to take it for granted, that 
all foreigttttB Who fled m>m their own 
oountiy to seek an asylum in this, 
must be heroes or fiaftriots of the fint 
water. Did geimenien remember 
the ancient j^oi!«y which existed 
with respect to the coming of fo- 
reigners into this eoontry? Dkl 
^y remember — 

" Londan, Uie rie«dy Yfltalii'i ooniDOli Iwme, 
** The sfnk tndMwor of Fkicli mmI of Bon* ?" 

Amongst some of these gentry, for 
whom soch tender sufmpathks were 
now expressed, there weie to be 
found pimps and <{uack doctors, ** et 
id gemis cmncj*' a sthkii^ illustra- 
tion of winch was to be seen in a re- 
cent case at Manchester. He by no 
means intended to convey an im- 
presnon that all aliens were of this 
deecnption; but he tho^ght that 
when geatlemen on the o£er side 
assumed that all aliens oomine here 
weiB heroes and peftiiots, he had as 
good a righttoassumetfaat they were 
of qaite a different description. He 
•would then state in conclusion^ under 
all the circumstances, that not a little 
was or ooi)Jd be insinuated in the 
way of abuse Df the power, and that 
it was necessary it should be oon- 
limied in its present'stata foi a time 
longer; but at the end of that time 
we shield return to some aaore mild 
sVBlt»n of legislation on tibe sttt()eot, 
alwa^ reser