Nuclear medicine pioneer and director of Donner Laboratory, Univeristy of California, Berkeley : oral history transcript / 2000

University of California • Berkeley

Regional Oral History Office History of Science and Technology Program

The Bancroft Library The Bancroft Library

University of California, Berkeley University of California, Berkeley

Medical Physics Oral History Series

John H. Lawrence, M.D.

NUCLEAR MEDICINE PIONEER AND DIRECTOR OF DONNER LABORATORY,
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY

An interview conducted by

Sally Smith Hughes, Ph.D.

in 1979 and 1980

Copyright © 2000 by The Regents of the University of California

Since 1954 the Regional Oral History Office has been interviewing leading
participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in the development of
Northern California, the West, and the Nation. Oral history is a method of
collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a
narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-
informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the
historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited for
continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected
manuscript is indexed, bound with photographs and illustrative materials, and
placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and in
other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material,
oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete
narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in
response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved,
and irreplaceable.

************************************

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between the
Regents of the University of California and John Hundale Lawrence dated April 23,
1982. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All
literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved
to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. No part of
the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of
the Director of the Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley.

Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the
Director and should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted,
anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user.

It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows;

John H. Lawrence, M.D. "Nuclear Medicine Pioneer and
Director of Donner Laboratory, University of
California, Berkeley", an oral history conducted in
1979 and 1980 by Sally Smith Hughes, Regional Oral
History Of f ice /History of Science and Teehnology
Program, The Bancroft Library, University of
California, Berkeley, 2000.

Copy no.

John H. Lawrence, M.D., 1980.

Photo by LBL Photographic Services.

Cataloguing information

Lawrence, John H. (1903-1991) Physician and Laboratory Director

Nuclear Medicine Pioneer and Director of Donner Laboratory, University
of California, Berkeley, 2000, v, 165 pp.

Norwegian/Midwestern family background; brother, E.G. Lawrence;
undergraduate education at the University of South Dakota, medical
training at Harvard; research with Harvey Gushing; nuclear medicine at
UC Berkeley, Crocker Laboratory; financing research, the Macy Foundation
and the Markle Foundation; tools of nuclear medicine, cyclotron,
omnitron, bevelac, artificial radioisotopes, neutron radiation,
radiophosphorus; treating acromegaly, Cushing's disease, Nelson's
syndrome, lymph cancer; creation and purpose of Donner Laboratory and UC
Berkeley's Division of Medical Physics and Biophysics; Atomic Energy
Commission, Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission; work relationships with
James Born, Hardin Jones, John Gofman, Melvin Calvin, Hal Anger, John
Northrop, Cornelius Tobias; founding the Alpha Omega Foundation.

Interviewed in 1979 and 1980 by Sally Smith Hughes for the History
of Science and Technology Program's Medical Physics Series.
Produced by the Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft
Library, University of California, Berkeley, in 2000.

Contents

Acknowledgement

Series History

Curriculum Vitae iv

FAMILY BACKGROUND

EARLY EDUCATION 6

MEDICAL TRAINING 9

PRE- BERKELEY RESEARCH 1*

PRE-WAR ASSOCIATIONS AND RESEARCH AT BERKELEY

CROCKER LABORATORY, JOSEPH HAMILTON AND THE 60-INCH CYCLOTRON 56

THE FOUNDATION OF DONNER LABORATORY 60

THE AEROMEDICAL UNIT AT DONNER LABORATORY 64

POSTWAR DONNER LABORATORY

ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES 74

HARDIN JONES

JOHN GOFMAN 8*

MELVIN CALVIN

HAL ANGER

JOHN NORTHROP 94

THE DIVISION ON MEDICAL PHYSICS AND BIOPHYSICS 97

THE INTERDEPARTMENTAL GRADUATE GROUP IN MEDICAL PHYSICS AND

BIOPHYSICS

RESEARCH AND THERAPY ON HUMANS 100

THE OMNITRON AND THE BEVELAC 104

NUCLEAR MEDICINE AND THE MEDICAL CURRICULUM

THE ALPHA OMEGA FOUNDATION 109

APPENDIX

Acknowledgement

This interview with Dr. John H. Lawrence is one of several dealing
with the development of Crocker and Donner laboratories, within the larger
series of oral histories produced by the History of Science and Technology
Program of The Bancroft Library.

Besides these interviews, the Program assembles other primary source
materials, including the papers and personal memorabilia of scientists and
engineers, and the papers of certain organizations with which they were
associated. The information in the papers and interviews helps to
demonstrate the development of science and technology not only in the
western United States, but also in the nation as a whole.

The project was made possible initially by the generosity of William
R. Hewlett and David Packard. Mrs. Calvin K. Townsend established the
Doreen and Calvin K. Townsend Fund to provide ongoing support of the
Program. The University Endowment Fund, National Science Foundation, and
National Endowment for the Humanities have assisted diverse aspects of the
Program with a series of grants. Further aid has come from the Marco
Francis Hellman Fund, established to document science and technology and
their relations to business in California. The John H. Lawrence oral
history was also aided by a gift from the Chabot and Dieckmann Memorial
Library Fund. Other donors to the project have included the Woodheath
Foundation, the California Alumni Foundation, and the Watkins-Jones
Company.

1980 James D. Hart

University of California Director

Berkeley, California The Bancroft Library

11

The Medical Physics Oral History Series

The series, conducted in 1978-1980 under the auspices of the History
of Science and Technology Program [HSTP] at The Bancroft Library, was
funded by the National Endowment for the Humanities to document medical
physics and biophysics at the University of California, Berkeley. Sally
Smith Hughes, advised by Roger Hahn and John Heilbron of the Office of the
History of Science and Technology, conducted interviews with thirteen
individuals associated with Donner and Crocker laboratories and the
Division of Medical Physics. All of the interviews had been transcribed
and edited when the grant terminated in 1980. Some of the transcripts were
subsequently reviewed and approved by the interviewee, processed by various
individuals associated with HSTP, and made available for research as bound
and indexed volumes. They are: John Gofman, Alexander Grendon, William
Myers, Kenneth Scott, and William Siri. Other transcripts have for years
remained in various stages of completion, and only in 1999, under the aegis
of David Farrell, the new HSTP curator, are being reconsidered for
processing and release. Sally Hughes, now of the Regional Oral History
Office, has been asked to finalize the remaining oral histories with James
Born, Patricia Durbin, Donald van Dyke, Thomas Hayes, John Lawrence, Howard
Mel, Alexander Nichols, & Cornelius Tobias.

The oral histories, in conjunction with archival holdings at The
Bancroft Library and Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, will be useful in
constructing a picture of the growth and development of the fields of
medical physics and biophysics, in which the Berkeley research and academic
institutions played an early and significant role. The interviews are of
particular historical interest for their depiction of the early use of
cyclotron-produced radioisotopes and radiations in science and medicine.
The series complements other oral histories, at Bancroft Library and at the
American Institute of Physics, pertaining to the development of Lawrence
Berkeley Laboratory and the subdisciplines of physics.

Sally Smith Hughes, Ph.D.
Research Historian

January 2000

Regional Oral History Office

The Bancroft Library

University of California, Berkeley

iii

HISTORY OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM

MEDICAL PHYSICS ORAL HISTORIES

August 2000

COMPLETED

James L. Born (1915-1981), "Physician and Administrator at Donner
Laboratory," 2000

John Gofman (1918-), "John Gofman: Medical Research and Radiation
Politics," 1985

Alexander Grendon (1899-1982), "Alexander Grendon: Research with Hardin
Jones at Donner Laboratory, 1957-1978," 1985

John H. Lawrence (1904-1991), "Nuclear Medicine Pioneer and Director of
Donner Laboratory, University of California, Berkeley," 2000

William G. Myers (1908-1988), "William G. Myers: Early History of Nuclear
Medicine," 1986

Scott, Kenneth G. (1909-1983), "Radioisotope Research in Medicine," 1986

William E. Siri (1919-), "William E. Siri: Biophysical Research at
Donner Laboratory, 1945-1975," 1987

IN PROCESS

Donald C. Van Dyke
Patricia W. Durbin-Heavy
Thomas Hayes
Howard C. Mel
Alexander V. Nichols
Cornelius Tobias

IV

CURRICULUM VITAE
JOHN HUNDALE LAWRENCE

1904 Canton, South Dakota, born January 7
Father: Carl Gustavus Lawrence
Mother: Gunda Jacobson Lawrence

1922-1924 Southern State Teacher's College

1924-1926 University of South Dakota, Vennillion (A.B.)

1926-1930 Harvard Medical School (M.D.)

1930-1931 Intern, Peter Bent Brigham Hospital, Boston

1931-1932 Assistant resident physician in medicine, Strong Memorial
Hospital, Rochester, New York

1932-1933 Assistant resident physician, New Haven Hospital, and assistant

in medicine, Yale School of Medicine

1933-1934 Resident physician in internal medicine, New Haven Hospital

1934-1937 Associate physician, New Haven Hospital, and instructor in

internal medicine, Yale Medical School

1937-1945 Research Associate in Medical Physics, Crocker Radiation
Laboratory, University of California, Berkeley

1937-1946 Assistant Professor of Internal Medicine, University of
California, San Francisco

1941-1945 Director of Research Projects, World War II under the Office of
Scientific Research and Development

1942 University of South Dakota, D.Sc. honorary

1945-1946 Assistant Professor of Medical Physics, University of
California, Berkeley

1946 Member, Joint Task Force II, Bikini Islands, atomic bomb test

site

1946-1950 Associate Professor of Medical Physics, University of
California, Berkeley

1947 Associate Professor of Experimental Medicine, University of

California, San Francisco

1948-1970 Director of Donner Laboratory, University of California,
Berkeley

1950-1970 Professor of Medical Physics, University of California,
Berkeley

1954- Physician-in-Chief , Donner Pavilion, Cowell Hospital,
University of California, Berkeley

1958 University of Bordeaux, docteur honoris cause

1959-1970 Associate Director, Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, University of
California, Berkeley

1959 Catholic University of America, D.Sc. honorary

1970-1991 Emeritus Professor of Medical Physics, University of
California, Berkeley

1970-1991 Emeritus Director of Donner Laboratory, University of
California, Berkeley

1970-1991 Emeritus Associate Director of Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory,
University of California, Berkeley

1991

Deceased

In Memoriura,

University of California, 1991

I

John Hundale Lawrence

»

1903-1991

PROFESSOR OF MEDICAL PHYSICS,

REGENT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA

Berkeley

In the summer of 1935, John Lawrence took leave from his post
as Instructor in Medicine at Yale University to spend a few weeks at
Berkeley to undertake studies with radioactive phosphorus, one of
the first artificial isotopes produced by the beams of his brother
Ernest's cyclotron. He injected soluble radioactive phosphorous into
a group of leukemic mice and then left to go fishing on the Trinity
River. When he returned a few weeks later, the mice were much
improved, no doubt due 10 the beta radiation they had received. The
excitement of this discovery was too much for John to resist. With
the encouragement of his Harvard mentor, Harvey Gushing, he left
Yale to become a pioneer of nuclear medicine at Berkeley. On Christ
mas Eve of 1936, he administered to a 28-year-old woman suffering
from leukemia, a dose of radiophosphorus. This was the first time
that a radioactive isotope produced by the cyclotron had been used
to treat a human patient. In the years to come, the method became a
standard treatment for the blood disease known as polycythemia
vera, an uncontrolled proliferation of red blood cells. One of his later
patients was Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac, who was given asylum by
the American Consul in Budapest from Communist persecution.
Five years later, in 1951, the Cardinal was released to the Tito gov
ernment under restrictions. Summoned to Zagreb, Yugoslavia, John
administered radiophosphorus to the cardinal, who was suffering
from polycythemia. In recognition, Lawrence received a medal from
Pope Pius XII.

The cyclotron was potentially capable of producing copious neu
trons, discovered a short time earlier by Chadwick. Initially, these
panicles were considered to be relatively harmless as compared to X
rays. For about two years, the physics staff moved freely about their

105

unshielded machine. The first meaningful scientific study of the bio
logical effects of neutrons was carried out in 1935 by John and Paul
Aebersold, who found that neutrons were much more harmful than
X rays. Since lead shielding had proven ineffective, a large number
of water filled cans were piled around the accelerator. These were
among the first steps in the creation of a new field: health physics.

In 1937 John made another startling observation: He found that a
rodent tumor, sarcoma 180, was more sensitive to neutron radiation
than were normal tissues! No such difference was observed for X
rays. John and Ernest Lawrence then proposed that neutrons be
tested in cancer therapy. In response to their request, the Rockefeller
Institute made a grant to finance the first "medical" accelerator, the
60-inch cyclotron. It was soon demonstrated that neutrons were ef
fective in killing human tumors, but that they also produced late
deleterious effects.

Lawrence's work with cancer patients attracted the interest of
William Donner, a Philadelphia industrialist and philanthropist,
whose son had died of cancer. Donner contributed funds for con
struction of the building at the Northeast corner of the Berkeley
Campus that bears his name. Donner Laboratory was dedicated in
1942 to the "applications of physics, chemistry and the natural sci
ences to biology and medicine."

The availability of radioisotopes presented a tremendous challenge
to investigate the dynamic turnover of chemical species in living
systems. Experiments by Lawrence and his associates included work
with radioactive sodium, potassium, iodine, iron, strontium and
other elements.

John Lawrence elected to aid the war effort by applying the new
science to the important field of aviation medicine. He was assisted
by Hardin Jones, a physiologist, and Cornelius Tobias, a physicist.
Working with nitrogen analogs, radioactive argon, krypton and xe
non, they were able to prove that "preoxygenation" was a way to
overcome "bends," a debilitating condition limiting the altitude ceil
ing of aviators. It was also discovered that breathing inert xenon gas
produced anesthetic effects.

Initially, the Medical Physics Division of the Physics Department
was the academic home of Lawrence and his associates. In 1947, an
interdisciplinary faculty group was organized, doctor's degrees were
offered in biophysics and medical physics, and master's degree in
bioradiology. John encouraged and fostered innovation in many
aspects of biophysics. The division eventually added B.A. degrees
and became the Department of Biophysics. Macromolecular struc
ture, lipoprotein dynamics, basic radiation biology and genetics, ir-

106

reversible thermodynamics and neurobiophysics were among the
courses offered. In the ensuing decades, hundreds of individuals
came to Berkeley to study with Lawrence and the staff, many from
foreign countries.

In 1948, John became Associate Director of the Radiation Labora
tory. Much of his time was occupied with planning new projects for
Berkeley and the programs of the Atomic Energy Commission else
where. In 1955 he was one of the organizers of the "Atoms for Peace"
conference at Geneva. He traveled extensively, gave many lectures,
and accepted awards and honorary degrees from three universities,
including his alma mater, the University of South Dakota. In 1970,
he was elected to the presidency of the Society of Nuclear Medicine
and received the "Nuclear Pioneer" award. John Lawrence's philoso
phy of leadership included creation and maintenance of an environ
ment where leaders in medicine, science, and education could
mingle with students and young investigators in the pursuit of new
ideas in biological science, new technologies for medical science and
methods for treatment of disease. This led to the discovery of cho
lesterol and lipoprotein relationships to heart disease as well as to
major underpinning of nuclear medicine.

The years following the war also saw the beginnings of several im
portant research programs. John and a group of young physicians
used long-lived radioiron to label hemoglobin in red blood cor
puscles and demonstrated that iron was transported to the bone
marrow by a protein; they were also able to measure the life span of
red blood cells. Later, with laboratory scientist Will Siri, John made
expeditions to the Andes to study red cell production at high alti
tudes. This work led to pioneering studies of erythropoietin, the
hormone that controls the production of red blood cells.

Robert Wilson, who eventually became the director of Fermilab,
suggested at Berkeley in 1946 that high energy protons might be
useful in cancer therapy because of the "Bragg effect," the property
of delivering a good deal of the particle energy deep in tissue.
Lawrence and his group became interested in this approach and be
gan investigating it at a time when very little was known about the
biological effects of these particles. The 184-inch cyclotron was com
pleted in 1947, and investigations began with protons, deuterons and
helium ion beams.

In 1951, Hal Gray of the Hammersmith hospital in London pro
posed that high LET radiations were more effective on tumor cells,
which were often constrained to live in an oxygen-deficient milieu.
The Swedish surgeon, Herbert Olivecrona demonstrated indepen
dently that surgical removal of the pituitary gland could produce

107

astonishing regressions of human mammary cancer. In 1954 the first
patient with advanced mammary cancer received pituitary proton ra
diation. Eventually several hundred patients were treated, most of
them suffering from acromegaly, a debilitating tumor of the pituitary
gland. Medically, John was assisted by James Born and other physi
cians in his group. As a physician, Lawrence was compassionate, and
dedicated to his patients. It was shown that nonsurgical pituitary
particle radiation could permanently interfere with the production
of somatotropic hormone and produce tumor regressions lasting for
many years.

The avalanche of scientific and medical investigations that fol
lowed are still in progress today. Currently the largest Berkeley ac
celerator, the Bevalac, is being utilized. Trials are under way for the
treatment of several types of cancer with heavy ion beams. The par
ticles are also proving effective for the treatment of life threatening
arterio — venous malformations in brain. A new medical proton ac
celerator has been built at Loma Linda University. Several countries,
including Germany and Japan are building heavy particle accelera
tors for biomedical research and treatment.

In 1970, when Lawrence retired as director of Donner Laboratory,
he was asked by then Governor Reagan to become a Regent of the
University of California. During his 13-year-tenure, he was instru
mental in promoting advanced education in the medical sciences. In
1983, he received the Enrico Fermi award for his "pioneering work
and continuing leadership in nuclear medicine."

During the last few years of his life, he kept a table next to his bed,
filled with scientific and medical books. When unable to sleep, he
would get up to read at any time of day or night. John's interest in
both cancer and atomic research never flagged. It was this indomi
table spirit, and his ability to create an environment of freedom in
research for scientists and students alike, that are attributes we most
admired in John Lawrence. He had a great sensitivity to human suf
fering, and he believed that humans can solve many of their prob
lems through scientific pursuits.

John lost his wife Amy in 1967. He is survived by their four chil
dren, Shelley de Rouvray of Paris, Mark of Los Angeles, James of
Alamo and Steven of Alamo, and eight grandchildren.

THOMAS BUDINGER
HOWARD MEL
CORNELIUS A. TOBIAS

108

Interview 1: February 19, 1980

FAMILY BACKGROUND

Hughes: Dr. Lawrence, could you go back to your grandparents and tell me their names, on

both sides of the family, their professions, and what they did with their lives?

Lawrence: Well, my father's father, Ole Hundale Lawrence, was a schoolteacher, and I have his
license to teach school in Madison, Wisconsin hanging in the living room at home.
He was bom in Norway. My father and I once were in Norway together and we
discovered that his name was on the list of about 50 or 60 people that left the church
that he and his family went to, to go to the United States. So he went to Madison,
Wisconsin and became a schoolteacher. He married rather late. He married, I think,
at the age of about 50. I never knew him but I knew my grandmother, Bertha Marie
Hull Lawrence, because she lived with my mother and father after her husband died.
She was much younger. Apparently he was a good schoolteacher in an elementary
and high school in Madison. Then the other side of the family was my mother's
parents. I remember her father. He also came from Norway — a different part of
Norway. The first grandfather came from Telemark and the other one came from
farther north in Norway. He married a Norwegian girl. (Several years ago a
Norwegian- American from the Livermore Lab called me. I did not know him. On
his own he traced my father's side of the family back to 1300. His name is Chris
Alland. My wife traced my mother's family when she and two of our children were
in Norway. I guess she spent some time in northern Norway at Lorn. I guess she
wanted to check on my ancestry. My wife Amy and my mother were beautiful,
intelligent, loyal and wonderful women.)

Hughes: Was he married in this country?

Lawrence: I think he married her in Norway, then came to this country and got one of those
homesteads where they get 160 acres. He settled in South Dakota and became a
very successful farmer. I remember him but I don't remember his wife. I can
remember him when I was a young boy because he was living with one of my

mother's sisters.

Hughes: Had he been a farmer in Norway as well?

Lawrence: Yes, he'd been a farmer. He was raised on a farm over there. But he did very well
in this country like lots of people did, of course.

Hughes: Can you tell me the names of all these people?

Lawrence: Well, the one on my father's side was Lawrence in Norwegian. When he got to
Madison there was another man of the same name, so he changed it to Lawrence.
That's what my father told me. My other grandfather was Erik Jacobsen. So both
sides of the family were of Norwegian extraction.

Hughes: Did your father have brothers and sisters?

Lawrence: Yes, my father had one brother who was a minister, after whom I was named, who
died as a young man from a ruptured appendix. I never knew him. Then he had
two sisters, one of whom married a man who ran a store in Stockton, California. I
met her and her husband (Beattie). Another sister married a man in Minnesota, but I
can't remember what he did. (Haugen)

Hughes: And on your mother's side? Did she have brothers and sisters?

Lawrence: My mother had one brother who was a bachelor all his life. He became a very

successful banker. I can remember him very well because he came out to visit my
brother and me just before World War II. He was a very prominent citizen in a
small town in South Dakota where he and another man owned three banks; it's
Canton, South Dakota. When they had the Crash around '29 or '30, when the banks
were all going broke, he and his partner paid everybody off. So nobody lost
anything from his banks.

She had another brother who was a farmer in North Dakota. Then she had
three sisters. Two of them lived in South Dakota. (Overseth) One sister married a
farmer who was very successful. Another sister married a farmer in Minnesota
(Clapp), and a third sister also married a farmer (Rise). I remember all of them.

Hughes: I know your mother graduated from college and had a considerable aptitude for

mathematics.

Lawrence: Yes, she was a very good mathematician, and she taught school. That's where she
met my father who was principal of the school when she was one of the teachers.

Hughes: Could you tell me something about your family when you were growing up? For

example, who was responsible for disciplining the children?

Lawrence: I think that they did it mostly by setting an example. My father was a page in the

capitol in Madison, Wisconsin. He nearly went to law school because he worked in
the law offices of Robert Marion LaFollette who was a famous liberal. My father

-

was basically a liberal although a different kind of liberal than some liberals are
now. He nearly went with Robert LaFollette and nearly stayed with him and was
going to go to law school. But after graduation from the University of Wisconsin he
decided to get a job teaching if he could. He suddenly got this offer from a small
college in South Dakota to become professor of Latin and history, which he
accepted. He rode into the state on a bicycle and that's where he met my mother
after he'd been there for three or four years.

Hughes: What did he study at the University of Wisconsin?

Lawrence: I think he majored in history and Latin. He knew Latin very well and he knew
history very well. So he had a liberal arts education.

Hughes: You mentioned your father's interest in politics as a younger man. Did he keep on

with that interest? Was he always politically oriented?

Lawrence: He was a great believer in Robert LaFollette, who founded the liberal party. He was
a great patriotic American. He was a good citizen and was very much interested in
politics, although he never went into it — although that was somewhat political,
being a college president in a state university. The governor had more influence
than he does here. I can remember that I met the various governors that he was
under. He was an impressive fellow and he could get along with the politicians all
right, but he wouldn't let them dictate to him. He was a pretty strong character, but
he had enough stature mentally and physically so that they took him pretty
seriously. He was a reasonable man, though, highly respected.

Hughes: Do you remember having political discussions at home?

Lawrence: Oh, yes. Then they came out here and retired here. He was basically a Republican,
or perhaps a better definition would be an independent.

Hughes: Did you speak Norwegian at home?

Lawrence: My father and mother were very careful to avoid that, and I think they made a

mistake. In that country where we were raised until we went away to college there
were a lot of people that never learned to speak English well and my mother,
particularly, wanted to be sure that we spoke English well. She spoke perfect
English and so did he. But they could both speak Norwegian. But I think it was a
mistake because I would appreciate... I can speak German and I can get by in
French, but I think it's an asset to know languages. She just objected to these
immigrants and their children who never learned to speak the American language.

Hughes: Who do you think had the most influence on you as growing up, aside from your

immediate family?

Lawrence: The family doctor I liked very much, and that's what made me think I wanted to go
into medicine when I was a young boy. My uncle, I had a lot of admiration for him.
He was highly respected, my bachelor uncle. But I think most of the influence
came from my father and mother, particularly my mother. She wanted us to both
amount to something. She was the one that kept us aware that we had better do well
in high school and in college. So I think she had the greatest influence, although my
father was an excellent speaker and became a President of two different colleges and
was highly respected.

He was very athletic. He was about six-foot-four. He was an athlete and he
pitched on the baseball team and rowed on the crew. He was quite religious. He
could substitute for a sermon; I've heard him do that. Yet he wasn't one of these
people who is holier than thou. He was a real man. He'd smoke a cigar once in a
while and later on in life he'd have a scotch with my brother and me when we came
home. "John," he said, "if a man doesn't have some bad habits, at least one or two
bad habits, there's something wrong with him." (laughter) So he was a very practical
guy. But they didn't have any cocktails at home when we were growing up. But

later on in life, I think due to the influence of my brother and me... We said, "Well,
as you get older, it's a good idea to have a little wine or a cocktail. It's probably
more healthy than not."

Hughes: But not your mother.

Lawrence: No, not my mother. I can remember her even when he was older. She'd say, "Why
Carl, you shouldn't drink that whiskey." So she never agreed to it. But she had a lot
of respect for him, and he was a great leader in the state, but he had a lot of respect
for her, too. It was a mutual thing.

Hughes: Would you say it was pretty much a traditional household — that your mother ran the

household and he took care of the external affairs?

Lawrence: Yes. These two different colleges furnished him with a house, just like they do
here, and a gardener to take care of the garden and so forth. She didn't have any
regular help. She did all the cooking and all the housekeeping. I can't remember
whether she had anybody come in to do cleaning or anything like that. I don't think
she did. She had a very nice house and kept it very clean.

Hughes: Did the family have to do a fair amount of entertaining just because of your father's

position?

Lawrence: Oh yes, she did a lot of the entertaining. She was a great, great hostess. She was a
very handsome woman and had a nice personality and there was nothing put on
about her. She wasn't social. She just entertained because she thought that was part
of her job as the wife of the president.

Hughes: Did she ever help you with your homework? I'm thinking particularly of

mathematics, since that was her particular field.

Lawrence: I don't think she did. I can't remember either one of them helping me in homework,
either in the case of my brother or me.

Hughes: Can you remember them expressing any preference about what career either you or

your brother might eventually decide upon?

Lawrence: Well, I remember my brother apparently wanted to go into medicine too. 1 was set
on it when I was ten years old. But my brother changed when he went to the
university. The first year he went to a Lutheran-backed college called Saint Olaf s,
which is in Minnesota, and it's still going. He flunked out in electricity and
magnetism, and he became one of the greatest living authorities on it. He didn't like
it there. I think he thought it was too provincial, and so he transferred to the
University of South Dakota.

There he came in contact with Lewis Akeley, who was a dean of
engineering and professor of physics. He spotted Ernest as an unusual guy. After
my brother died a fellow, Ferdinand Smith, who was in that same class with him,
came out. He was a prominent businessman in Omaha and I remember he was on
the baseball team. He told me how one day Dean Akeley, who spent a lot of time
with my brother after class and gave him special things to do, one day in the class
embarrassed my brother. He said, "There's a fellow in this class and I want you to
all take a look at him. He's going to be famous someday." He said, "There he is
right there. That's Ernest Lawrence. Here's a fellow that's going to amount to
something."

Hughes: Do you remember ever having any doubts about medicine as a career?

Lawrence: No, no doubts at all.

EARLY EDUCATION

Hughes: Let's go into your educational background. Can you remember anything about your

grammar school years? Where did you go?

Lawrence: I went to public school. I did very well up until I finished the eighth grade. I

remember I was the best speller in the class. We had spelling bees in those days. I
did very well in grade school and elementary school and got very good grades, and
my brother did, too. Matter of fact, when I helped this man Herbert Childs go to the
various towns that we lived in, why, we went to the school where my brother and I
went when we were in the first grade. They pulled out the grades for us. They were
very good grades.

I didn't do so well in the first two years in college. I played on the basketball
team and I had a girl. This boy (Steven Lawrence) now that I've got, I'm going to
take him to lunch at the Faculty Club; he's my youngest son and a sophomore in
college. He hasn't settled down yet. I remind myself that I didn't either at that age.

Hughes: What settled you down eventually?

Lawrence: I think it was the realization that if I was going to get into medical school I'd better
settle down. So at the end of my second year, I just quit everything but study,
practically. Then I rose right to the top of my class and I was the first Phi Beta
Kappa awarded at the University of South Dakota. I just worked like the dickens.
I'd go to the library every night and about half the weekends. And I did that in
medical school, too. I was at the top of my class at the end of the third year.

Hughes: Did you have Harvard in mind from early on?

Lawrence: Yes.

Hughes: Because it was the best.

Lawrence: Yes, that was known to be the best medical school. I mean, you could never say
that sure but everybody thought that was the best. Just like Harvard now is
supposed to be very good. My son Mark went there. Now he is an able chest
surgeon.

Hughes: I believe you spent two years at...

Lawrence: Southern State Teacher's College, which is now a branch of the University of South
Dakota. Then the last two years I spent at the University of South Dakota.

Hughes: Your father was at the Teacher's College at the same time. Was that why you went

there to start with?

Lawrence: Yes, I think that that's one argument for going away, because I stayed at home and
was having a lot of fun. I don't know what the answer is, but I didn't do very well
those two years there.

Hughes: Is that why you transferred? Or is it only a two year college?

Lawrence: It's a four year college.

Hughes: Why did you transfer to the University of South Dakota?

Lawrence: The University of South Dakota was a bigger school and it was the number one
school in the state.

Hughes: You were taking a pre-med course at that time?

Lawrence: Yes, I was taking the pre-medical courses.

Hughes: Were you writing back and forth to your brother during this period? Was he having

any influence on what you were doing in school?

Lawrence: Yes, he had much influence on me. We were four years apart as far as school was
concerned. So we never were in high school together and never in college together.
I think we always wrote back and forth after I went away to the University of South
Dakota. I think from that period of about two years before I graduated and from
then on for many years we wrote once every two weeks or so to each other.

Hughes: From the very beginning was he telling you what he was doing as far as his research

was concerned?

Lawrence: Yes, he used to, and I used to visit him, too, at various places. He went from
Vermillion, the University of South Dakota, to Minnesota for one year with a
professor there. That professor was going up the scale and so he took Ernest to
Chicago where he was offered a better job. Then he was offered a job at Yale, so he
took Ernest with him. This man's name was W.F.G. Swann, and I met him two or
three times. He later became director of the Bartol Research Foundation in
Philadelphia.

I remember when I enrolled at the University of South Dakota, Ernest was
home at that time. He went down with me and I can remember the influence he had
on me then. "You've really got to start hitting the ball now," he said, "because if
you're going to get into a good medical school, you really better settle down."

Hughes: You paid attention to what he was saying?

Lawrence: Yes, I did, because he was doing well already. I don't think he'd gotten his Ph.D.
quite yet. (Ernest Lawrence was awarded a Ph.D. from Yale in June 1925.) He
graduated from South Dakota in '22. So in '24 he was just going to Chicago, I think.
But he'd already done some experimental work and published a couple of papers.
He was getting to be well-known already but he hadn't gotten his Ph.D. yet.

Hughes: You majored in chemistry. Why chemistry?

Lawrence: Well, my brother and I talked about science and medicine and both of us realized,
even in those days, that there were too many people advising you to stay out of
science if you were going into medicine. I think I've told you that the Department
of Chemistry at the University of South Dakota named a seminar after me. It's
called the John Lawrence Interdisciplinary Symposium, which they hold every year.

Hughes: And that's in chemistry?

Lawrence: Yes, it's in the Chemistry Department, but it's interdisciplinary and it's held in Sioux
Falls, South Dakota, which is the biggest city. I've never been to this seminar, but I
will go this year and speak. I majored in chemistry and did very well. I became a
good friend of the chairman of the department, who was a very good organic
chemist, Arthur Pardee.

Hughes: Did you do any research as an undergraduate?

Lawrence: I helped one of the professors a little bit, but I was only there for two years.

MEDICAL TRAINING

Hughes: Were you thinking about what sort of a doctor you wanted to be? Was there any

thought at this time of perhaps going into academic medicine and doing research?

Lawrence: Well, there was a man in Sioux Falls who was the leading surgeon there, and I was
thinking that what I'd do is to go back to South Dakota and get into this big clinic,

10
which is still going, called the Sioux Falls Clinic.

Hughes: When did you give that idea up?

Lawrence: Let's see if I can figure that out. Well, I think Harvey Gushing, whose picture is up
there... I got to know him as a student. Just how it happened, I don't know. I
remember once he called me down in front of the class of 135 and had me examine
a patient and look at the eye grounds of a patient. He could see that I knew how to
handle an ophthalmoscope. He was a brain surgeon, and he invited me out to his
house, and so I saw a lot of him. I did my first research with him. He was an
example of what I thought was fine with medicine — a man who's a clinician but also
does research. So I think he had the influence on me.

Hughes: So before you had graduated from medical school then?

Lawrence: Yes. My brother being in research and being in a university, I became interested in
getting attached to a university and combine clinical work with teaching and
research. So I think Gushing had the most influence, plus my brother. Gradually I
got away from the idea of going out to South Dakota and working in this fairly large
clinic with a man whom I knew very well who'd more or less said, "Well, you'd
better come back here and I'll give you a job working in the clinic.' (Dr. Stevens, a
surgeon)

I didn't know whether I was going to do medicine or surgery, but then
Gushing had a vacancy for an internship when I was a fourth year medical student,
about the middle of the year. So Gushing called me up and wanted to see me. Later
on I found out why the other man didn't appear — Gushing wouldn't take anybody
who was married. So he just let this fellow go. I didn't know that until years later. I
said, "Well, I'm not sure that I want to do surgery." But he said, "That don't make a
difference." He said, "You want to really know how to take out an appendix, and
you want to know how to set an arm and even if you'are going to become an
internist, you better take a year of surgery." So he talked me into it and picked me
right out of the class. He knew that I was number one in the class. I said, "Well,
what am I going to do about my M.D.?" He said, "I'll take care of that." He said,
"You don't have to finish school." So I got my M.D.

Hughes: So you didn't really finish your fourth year?

11

Lawrence:

Hughes:

Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Hughes:

Lawrence:

Hughes:

Lawrence:

No, I didn't finish it.

Had you decided before that that you wanted internal medicine?

I was still open-minded about it. But I was tired of going to school anyway. I'd
worked pretty hard for several years and I was anxious to get on with other things.

During that internship year did you have time to continue your research with Dr.
Gushing?

Yes, that's where I continued research and wrote a couple of papers in his
laboratory. I worked with him off and on for several years, even after I went to
Yale. He got me a job after I'd had my internship with him. Then I decided that I
wasn't going to do surgery. He said, "I'll get you into a very good place, run by a
man who did the same thing that you're doing. He had a surgical internship under
me, decided he didn't want to do surgery. Now he's chairman of the Department of
Medicine at the University of Rochester." So he called him up and said, "I've got a
fellow that I want you to take on." So he took me on as assistant resident just as if
I'd had my internship in medicine.

Why did you decide against surgery?

I don't think I was particularly good with my hands and knot tying. I just didn't
seem to be very expert with my hands. I just had a feeling that I wasn't naturally cut
out to be a surgeon. Maybe that was a mistake; I mean, I could've become a
surgeon, I think. But that was my feeling at the time.

Had

you decided upon internal medicine at that stage?

Yes, then I decided I'd go into internal medicine.

I know you were at Rochester for a year. Why did you decide not to finish your
residency there? You moved to New Haven.

I knew the chairman of the department of medicine down there. He was a Harvard
medical graduate, a rather famous doctor, and it was a better medical school, I think.

12

I didn't like Rochester very much, anyway. It was very provincial. I got acquainted
with New Haven when my brother was there. He was a young assistant professor
there. Well, I went down to see him when I was a medical student, and he would
come up to see me in Boston. We'd get together for Christmas and Thanksgiving,
and so I saw him all through medical school. Let's see, when did he come to
California?

Hughes: 1928.

Lawrence: Yes, that's right. He came at the end of my second year. But during my first and
second year at Harvard I got out to Yale quite a bit and he'd come up to Boston.

-

Now that you mention this, I can remember when he left for California.
Well, I can remember lots of things about that, but one thing I can remember is that
one night after my final examination in pathology, we went to an Italian restaurant.
In those days they'd serve you wine in coffee cups. It was illegal. So we went to
this Italian restaurant and there was a famous and very attractive German by the
name of Otto Stem who spoke broken English. He later retired and lived in
Berkeley. He got the Nobel prize. Well, I think he was probably Jewish and so like
Edward Teller, who's one of my closest friends now, he was sort of forced out of
Hungary. We got a lot of people like that in this country.

We started talking about Ernest's idea about the cyclotron. I don't think he'd
named it yet. He made a drawing of the cyclotron on the tablecloth with a pencil—
the idea of whirling around the nuclei. He made a drawing of the dees with the
magnet and everything. He'd done nothing on it. (pause) I remember Otto Stem
said in German, "Sie mussen zuriickgehen." This must've been during the year of
'28-'29. That would be my third year in medical school. Otto Stern saw that this
was a terrific idea and Ernest had done nothing about it. He got the idea in the
library, reading an article by a Norwegian physicist, Rolf Wideroe, whom I met later
on, who didn't suggest this exactly, but it made Ernest think of it. They'd been
accelerating particles in a straight line and he said,"Why not do it in a circle and
then keep on giving it a kick?" Stem became a great friend of my brother's over the
years.

Hughes: Do you remember if your brother then quickly went back and made the first

cyclotron?

13

Lawrence: Oh, then he went right back to work on it. Yes, then he jumped on the train the next
day — he couldn't fly in those days — and he went to work on it right away.

I can remember later on when he got the first little unit put together... He
wasn't a very good engineer but he could put things together and make them work.
Sort of a haywire type of engineer. When he got the first glow in a little unit, he
gave a paper back in Washington. By that time I was at Yale as a resident in
medicine and I remember that he gave the paper at the National Academy meeting
in Washington. A friend of his heard him give it. Ernest made the statement, "This
method that we've developed, there's no reason now we can't go up to 100 million
volts." No one had gotten above one million or two million volts in those days.
This man who was a good friend of his said, "Your brother is losing his mind. He's
crazy." He was really serious about this. He said, "The talk down there in
Washington was that this bright young Lawrence is just off his rocker, the way he
talks."

Hughes: Well, he seems to have done that throughout his career. The theoreticians would

say, "Well, no, that can't be done. You can't get energies of that kind." And your
brother would go ahead and do it anyway.

Lawrence: Yes, that's right. Rutherford said that you would never get energy out of the atom.
I've got that newspaper clipping framed at home in my living room — a quotation
from Rutherford and picture of Rutherford and a small paragraph about this young
physicist who said, "Well, Lord Rutherford, you may be right but we're going to
keep trying."

Hughes: What was it that made him so convinced that he could do it despite the theoretical

background?

Lawrence: Well, he had a peculiar enthusiasm that I think was characteristic of the way he
operated. He had the feeling that things could be done if they're sensible and
reasonable. You can just keep working and with enthusiasm, why, it'll work out. I
think that's the reason he had so much influence on a lot of younger men here and
also at Yale, but mostly here. All these tremendous numbers of young men that
became famous after working with Ernest — mostly because of his enthusiasm and
the way he could come around and talk to them and influence them and encourage

14
them. It was part of his blood. He just was very enthusiastic.

When this fellow came to me and said that he's crazy, I said, "No, he's not
crazy. There's nobody that I know that's got more horse sense than Ernest has." He
had very good judgment — judgment of people, judgment of physics, judgment of
the energy of the atom. He knew the energy was there, and he thought it could be
gotten out.

I met Einstein once with Ernest. He never knew Einstein terribly well, but
Einstein and Fermi — there are so many really great physicists, probably even greater
than Ernest was. But Ernest was really great because of his enthusiasm and he was
a great experimenter. Einstein was a great mind but not an experimenter. Fermi
was maybe a theoretician too. I knew Fermi fairly well. I'd talked to him a few
times. These are two of the great names in physics. And of course Teller is a great
name in physics. They were all theoretical.

Hughes: Well, getting back to you and your move from Rochester to New Haven, I know

that Harvey Gushing moved from Harvard to Yale at about that time. Was he there
when you arrived from Rochester? That would've been 1932. He became Sterling
Professor of the History of Medicine.

Lawrence: Yes, Gushing was there.

Hughes: Was that any influence on your decision to go to New Haven?

Lawrence: I can't specifically say that it was, although I was in touch with him, corresponded
with him. He retired at 65, 1 think; you had to retire at the Brigham Hospital. So he
went down there as professor of the history of medicine. He was a great historian,
great reader, and a great writer, wonderful speaker. But he didn't speak very much.

My brother was awarded a degree at Stevens "Institute of Technology when I
was at New Haven. I was resident in medicine then. He had to give the
commencement address. He didn't like to speak, my brother didn't. I knew Gushing
could write so I took Ernest in to see Gushing. Ernest had known Gushing in
Boston too, because I knew him and we'd visit with Gushing quite a bit. So
Gushing practically wrote this commencement address. I heard Ernest give it. It
was pretty good. And then he got an honorary degree. He was only about 30 years

Hughes:

15

old. He had a lot of honorary degrees when he was very young.

Gushing never did any research at Yale?

PRE-BERKELEY RESEARCH

Lawrence: Yes, he did. I began working with Gushing at Yale on patients that had Cushing's
disease, because when I was an interne with Gushing in Boston, I worked up the
first patient that he'd made the diagnosis on. Nobody recognized this condition.
I've just written a paper on it recently because I've seen a lot of patients with
Cushing's disease and we've developed a method for treating it right here with one
of the accelerators — very successful treatment. But in those days it couldn't be
treated. So I began working with Gushing on patients with Cushing's disease and I
wrote a couple of papers then, too. He had patients come from all over the world,
even when he was down at Yale, with Cushing's disease particularly. When they
came to the hospital I'd more or less take charge of them so I saw a lot of Gushing
down there.

Hughes: I know you were working with the pituitary and one of the research projects was the

effect of radiation on the pituitary.

Lawrence: Well, I first worked with the pituitary when I was an interne in Boston. I did a lot of
experimental work on dogs on the pituitary, and the on patients too. I became
interested in pituitary tumors because Gushing had a lot of them. So how I got
interested in the pituitary is chiefly through the clinical work and then the animal
work in Boston.

Then I got interested in hormones, so I started doing some experimental
work with pituitary hormones — measuring them in the urine and the blood stream.
There was a very famous endocrinologist at Yale by -the name of Edgar Allen, and
he helped me get started. Another fellow by the name of William Gardner, a great
anatomist and biologist. So I'd go across the street to the basic science departments
and work when I got a little time off from my teaching and clinical work. I had a
laboratory of my own, too, with a technician and I had a colony of animals — a good
sized colony of animals.

16

Hughes: Are you talking now about your residency or was this after you became an

instructor?

Lawrence: My residency plus after I became an instructor. The lab started when I was a
resident.

Hughes: Was Dr. Gardner an endocrinologist as well?

Lawrence: Yes, he became an endocrinologist, William Hugh Gardner.

Hughes: When did you begin to use irradiation?

Lawrence: Well, in the case of Cushing's disease, we became involved with the treatment of
these patients and there I got acquainted with the head of the X-ray department,
Hugh Wilson — well, I knew him. So with an experimental endocrinologist, Warren
Nelson, I did most of the work. We did a series of experiments on littermate rats,
radiating their pituitary with X-rays, which wasn't very successful. We wrote a
paper on that. Wilson was the professor of radiology and the endocrinologist
became a very famous man — he was an expert on endocrines of animals and on the
histology of the pituitary gland. So I did the experimental work, but I had the help
of the professor of radiology and also this professor of experimental endocrinology.

Hughes: At about this time your brother was helping to install the thousand kv-ray apparatus

at the Medical School. That was 1933. Since you were now also interested in
irradiation, do you remember any discussions of the possible adverse effects of
X-rays on the technicians or the physicians working around the apparatus at the
Medical School? That was before you had even come to Berkeley.

Lawrence: I can't remember anything that sort-of looms up.

Hughes: Do you remember when you were doing the irradiation work in connection with the

pituitary, both in Boston and at New Haven, was there any discussion of protection
and the need to be careful?

Lawrence: In those days people weren't conscious of the dangers of radiation. In '37, after I'd
done my first experiments out here beginning in '35, 1 gave a paper with Paul
Aebersold and Ernest. I gave it at the International Congress of Radiology. That

Hughes:

17

was in Chicago at the Palmer House, and I can remember meeting a lot of men from
this country and from abroad — Sweden, particularly, and from England and
Germany — who'd lost fingers or who had obvious scars on their hands where they'd
had skin grafts. You would shake hands with some man, he'd only have two fingers
or something like that, and he might've been a famous radiologist.

I went to the Mayo Clinic once because I was thinking of possibly going
there eventually and I had an introduction to the chairman of the radiology
department. He was a very famous radiologist. I think I must've been a medical
student then, or maybe I'd finished my internship. I can remember he took me into
the examining room where he was fluoroscoping patients, and I insisted on wearing
a lead apron over my body, and I wouldn't palpate the patient with my bare hand.
Well, here this famous radiologist was doing many patients in a row — six or eight of
them — and he wouldn't wear any shielding. He'd just use his bare hands and give
them a swallow of barium and he'd rum the fluoroscope on and then he'd fee' the
stomach. Well, he died early. I'm sure he died of excess radiation because when I
saw him the last time, he'd aged tremendously. He died as a young man. Maybe he
was 62 or something like that. But he was really careless, and I was aware of that
then. He was getting enormous doses of radiation. A lot of these radiologists did
that. So there wasn't awareness of it. I was aware of it fairly early.

Were you the one that warned Ernest, or was he already aware of the problem when
the cyclotron started up operation and he began to collect people to work around
him?

Lawrence: Oh, I think he was aware of... He wasn't so much worried about gamma rays or

X-rays but he was aware of the potential danger of these new radiations — neutrons.

Hughes: Was that awareness mainly from the cloud chamber pictures?

Lawrence: Yes, those very thick, dense tracks in the Wilson cloud chamber from neutrons,

compared to the very fine tracks produced by X-rays and electrons. So you couldn't
help but think that this is a different kind of radiation, that it might be more
damaging. So I think anybody that saw those tracks and knew a little bit about the
physics of neutrons and X-rays would naturally get interested and say, "Well, I'd
like to compare these with X-rays."

18

Interview 2 : May 20, 1 980

Hughes: You did your residence at Yale, and then you became an instructor, and were there

from 1934 to 1937. What department was that?

Lawrence: That was in internal medicine. The chief of internal medicine was Francis Blake,
who was a famous internist. There was another famous professor that I worked
with, a Professor John R. Paul.

The most important influence on me then was the continuation of the
influence of Harvey Gushing, whom I knew very well, as I've told you before, as a
medical student, and then as an interne at the Brigham Hospital in Boston, which is
still a very famous hospital, and still very much sought after by people who want to
get training. Gushing had retired from Harvard. I think he was either 65 or 67. I
think maybe it was 65, but the retirement age had come. So he then went to Yale,
where he had graduated as an undergraduate, and became professor of the history of
medicine. But he continued to have patients, and so I continued to see him very
often all during my period at Yale. He had patients with Cushing's disease that I
became interested in Boston. I just sent in a paper here, two or three months ago, on
Cushing's disease, to Western Medicine, because I've had 30 to 40 years' experience
with it. The first case of Cushing's disease I saw when I was an intern at Boston
under Harvey Gushing. Gushing had a great influence on me and he was a very
great man. He was a great teacher, a great surgeon, a great speaker, a great writer, a
great historian. He worked all the time, and I guess that's probably the reason he
was so great, because he worked so hard. Then when he got sick, I was senior
resident in medicine, and the professor assigned me to take care of him. Instead of
having an intern take care of the patients why. they assigned the chief resident, so I
saw him, put him to bed every night and went in and talked to him a lot. He
influenced me greatly, actually, in getting into this field of atomic energy.

Someone in Montreal where I had to go to a meeting last week, who is a
neurosurgeon, asked me about Cushing's papers. Even before the discovery of
radioactivity, Gushing began collecting the reprints of famous physicists like
Rutherford and Niels Bohr, and many others, and his collection is in the Sterling
Library at Yale, and it's called the Gushing collection. There's a special room for
that, and they've got his desk and his chair there. So I told this neurosurgeon who
was at the meeting at Montreal about this, and he's going up there to see the

19

collection. But Gushing had an intuition about the importance of this field.
Artificial radioactivity was discovered... when? '32?

Hughes: '34.

Lawrence: Well, I was still in New Haven, and of course then Gushing really became

interested. I'd take my brother in to meet Gushing. Gushing anticipated the terrific
importance of artificial radioactivity and the new radiations to medicine. Here's a
great surgeon who said, "This is going to be more important, if not as important, as
Pasteur and bacteriology."

Hughes: Do you think that influenced your brother?

Lawrence: Oh, I think it did. My brother was already a famous guy at the age of, I guess, 28 or
29 or 30. He was well-known all over the country. Oh sure, I'm sure Gushing had
an influence on him.

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:

There he (Gushing) is right there (points to photograph on office wall). He
was a very handsome man. He was a little man. He was about 5'8", and a
remarkable person, and a hard worker. Now there you see (points to another
photograph) he just came out of surgery, and he was making a note and a drawing of
the operation. Every operation that he did, he would go out in the next room, he'd
write a hand note, and he'd make a drawing of the operation, of the exposure. He
was a pioneer in brain surgery.

How was he treating Cushing's disease in those early days?

Well, we treated them with X-ray. The first one was a dentist from Chicago, and we
couldn't get much radiation in — just a temporary thing. It didn't cure them like we
can do now.

Did you continue doing research on Cushing's disease?

Well, I began doing work on the pituitary in dogs in Boston when I was an interne
with Gushing, and wrote my first paper. I continued working the pituitary in New
Haven. Wrote a couple of papers on it there: The effects of X-radiation on the rat
pituitary. And then I saw many patients with a clinical picture of pituitary disease,

20

and I wrote a couple of papers on that when I was there, too. So I continued that for
all the time I was at Yale and I began it out here too, after we got to the point where
we thought we could irradiate patients with acromegaly and Cushing's

Hughes: Do you remember being interested in what your brother was doing with the 1000

kV X-ray apparatus? I believe it was one of the two, or perhaps the, most powerful
X-ray apparatus in the world at that stage.

Lawrence: Yes, there was a graduate student here.
Hughes: David Sloan.

Lawrence: I knew what EOL was doing, and we corresponded a lot for many years. I think the
credit should go to the student. Sloan was Ernest's student. It sometimes is difficult
to find out just how much influence the professor has over his student. My brother
and Dave Sloan wrote an article on a million volt X-ray tube. Now this was either
the first, or it was parallel to the million volt tube that Robert Van de Graaff made at
M.I.T. I think that it was more or less parallel that those two tubes began being used
in the therapy of cancer. That was the first time high voltage X-ray had been used.
Of course, that's not high voltage now, but you get a better penetration and less skin
effects.

Hughes: At Yale you had a mouse colony with certain tumors that you were able to grow.

Lawrence: With leukemia?

Hughes: What was the sequence from the pituitary to the cancer research? Was there a tie-up

there?

Lawrence: No, I was feeling my way. I think the way I became interested in that was that I was
irradiating... I did the first work, it's recognized as the first work, on radiation
protection. And it was accidental. I was trying to induce leukemia in mice with
radiation at Yale. Let's see now how that story goes. No, I think this is the way it
was. A fellow by the name of William Gardner, who is about my age now, became
professor of anatomy at Yale. There was another man by the name of L.C. Strong,
who was also at Yale, and he had the first colony of mice that were inbred for many
generations, hundreds of generations.

21

Hughes: Do you mean the first line anywhere of inbred mice?

Lawrence: First in the world, L.C. Strong, yes. He became a very good friend of mine. Bill
Gardner was inducing leukemia by large doses of estrogen, and I thought, "Well,
maybe I'll combine estrogen with X-ray." Then I found radiating mice with whole
body X-ray and giving them estrogen would protect them somewhat against
radiation. That's in the literature now. There's a fellow in San Francisco at the
Medical School by the name of Harvey Part who has written about it. He extended
my work. Then when I came out here we repeated it and I got Anne Treadwell, who
was my technician, to do most of the work. We repeated it and it was true, and we
wrote a paper on that. So that was the first compound that protected against
radiation.

But then we also induced leukemia by radiation. In other words, you give
an animal a sublethal dose of radiation, and maybe do a hundred of them, and you'd
get maybe 1 0 or 1 5 percent that would develop leukemia. Strong had a strain of
mice, 100 percent of them would develop cancer spontaneously, cancer of the
breast. So Bill Gardner was developing tumors: lymphosarcomas and sarcomas and
leukemias. I'd get those strains from him. So I'd develop my own colony between
Strong and Gardner and also from a wonderful medical scientist at Cornell in New
York, Professor Jacob Furth. So the pituitary was not involved here.

There was another famous man there from whom I learned a lot about
hormones. He later got the Nobel prize. His name was Edgar Allen. Allen and
Doisy synthesized the female sex hormone. He's a professor of anatomy too. So I
used to do some routine urine assays on patients, and learned his techniques. And
that involved the pituitary hormone too.

Being under Blake, who was an infectious disease man, I had a colony of
ferrets. See, those were the days when you couldn't produce leukemia or flu
experimentally except by having a colony that you'd inbreed. I became interested in
the flu, and I used to go around the small prep schools and high schools in the East
on weekends and wash out the throats of children, bring the washings back to New
Haven and inoculate my ferrets. There was a man in England who showed that
ferrets would develop a disease like influenza if you injected into their throats the
virus from kids who had the flu. So I was feeling my way in various directions.

22
Tumors and influenza in ferrets...

Hughes: Now this goes back awhile, and it came from a letter to your brother written in 1934

when you were talking about radioactive sodium chloride, which I think was just
beginning to be produced in the cyclotron. You were talking about injecting the
radiosodium.

Lawrence: I think I remember that. I think I wanted to get some radioactive sodium to do some
studies at Yale.

Hughes: I don't know if it resulted in that, but you were discussing the possibility of injecting

the radiosodium... (short blank in tape) It wasn't a good idea. Why?

-

Lawrence: Well, sodium would be rapidly diffused.

Hughes: Did your brother ever send you some radiosodium while you were still at Yale?

Lawrence: No, just too complicated a problem. They were very short of it, and I began coming
out to Berkeley for short periods of time.

PRE-WAR ASSOCIATIONS AND RESEARCH AT BERKELEY

Hughes: Tell me how that was arranged. I know you had a few months off from Yale for a

couple of years (1935-36).

Lawrence: Well, what I'd do is I'd go to this professor of mine (Francis Blake) and say, "I want
to spend some time in California for a couple of months. My teaching schedule is
all through for three months and I can keep my research going here with my two
technicians. But now I've got this thing that I want to start in California,"

I went down to New York and met the head of the Macy Foundation,
Ludwig Kast. I later gave a lecture in his honor. . .[the Ludwig] Kast lecture at the
New York Academy of Medicine, probably in about 1946. Ludwig Kast was the
doctor of the Macy family. They'd just founded this big foundation and I'd heard
about it. So I went down to see him about getting a grant to pay my expenses to
come home to California. So he supported my trips out here; I made about three a

23

year. He gave me enough money so I could travel third class; take my mice with
me on the train. I think I told you about that before.

Hughes: Yes, you talked a little bit about that.

Lawrence: I'd bring about a thousand mice, and in the wintertime I'd have to go up and feed
them. I remember in Chicago once I had to transfer them in cold weather from one
train to another. So I got my money from Ludwig Kast. Then I went to another
foundation. Can't think of the name of that foundation

Hughes: Was it Markle?

Lawrence: Markle, yes. Archie Woods was head of Markle. So I got acquainted with Archie
Woods. He made me a grant and I got other grants too. In those days the
government wouldn't give any money. We had to get our money from private
funds. That was true of my brother's work too.

Hughes: What was your statues as far as the University here was concerned? Were you a

visitor?

Lawrence: I was just a worker, just like everybody else.
Hughes: Did you actually have a U.C. appointment as well?

Lawrence: No. Most of the people here now don't have any appointments either. Some of our
best people don't have any University appointments. No, I had an appointment at
Yale, and I was just a visiting scientist. We have visiting scientists here all the time.

The first work I did here, before I got the big colony out here, was on the
sarcoma 1 80, which again was not a good tumor because I had a mouse that you
could get very easily by shipping them from the East, called the Swiss mouse. But
the Swiss mouse, although easy to buy, if you'd inoculate a hundred animals with
these tumors, about 85 percent would grow and the other 1 5 percent wouldn't grow.
Then the ones that did grow, some of them would regress. So here is the first
example of immunity to a tumor. I could have followed that, too, and I got rid of
those animals, because I wanted an animal that I could test for radiation in which...
(background noise) I knew that the animal would grow the tumor if I didn't kill it

24
with radiation, (interruption)

I had a wonderful colony of animals and nobody else had them in California
then. And a lot of special tumors that we used in all of our early experiments. I
could have gone off in the direction of immunity, because here I had a natural
animal that was resistant to this tumor. The tumor would grow and then regress.
Well, that's what happened when you cure people from cancer. You treat them with
radiation, but what really helps you is the body. But no one's been able to measure
that. I don't know if I'd been able to do it either. I just wanted to study the effects of
radiation and get ratios of neutrons and X-rays. I was sort of limited in my outlook
at that time. I wanted something that was a real accurate measure. So I never
followed that up.

-•

Hughes: When you were getting rather striking results in mice with the total body exposure

with X-rays were you extrapolating to the human? I realize that you knew that there
was a danger there, if nothing else from the radium dial painters and all of that. But
I don't think anybody in those days could put a numerical value on the danger of any
form of radiation. When you were finding that it was not too difficult to induce
leukemia, was it giving you concerns about the 1000 X-ray apparatus? Stronger and
stronger machines were being built at that stage, and were safety precautions
increasing with the strength of the radiation?

Lawrence: In the treatment of people like my mother and thousands of other people that were
treated then and are being treated now, you're really treating a small volume of
tissue. I don't think there's any evidence that you're inducing leukemia. If you
irradiate the whole body, like at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or people that got
enormous doses to their whole body for arthritis of their spine, in England
particularly, then you would get an increase in leukemia. But for a small volume of
the body, you don't. Then of course, even if you did, if you have someone that's
dying.... One thing that's not considered now in the newspapers is benefit versus
risks. You have to take risks sometimes.

I think that's one reason that some people are so much against the atomic
reactor; they don't realize the benefits from an atomic reactor in the form of
electricity. All they think about is the risks.

You take a person who's got a goiter, for instance. The first person that was

Hughes:

Lawrence:
Hughes:

Lawrence:

Hughes:

Lawrence:

25

treated in the world with radioactive iodine was treated by my colleague Joe
Hamilton. I remember the first two patients that he treated with radioactive iodine.
Now that's practically taken over the so-called exothalmic goiter, where people get a
diffusely enlarged gland, in women mostly, young women very often. Then they
get prominent eyes, some of them do, and it's called Grave's disease. I suppose
millions of people have been treated with radioactive iodine, which was started here
with an isotope that was discovered here.

Of course, as I have told you before, the minute those counters started going
wild over there, and we read about Joliot and Curie's discovery of radioactivity, why
then my brother and Ed McMillan and Martin Kamen and Luis Alvarez and Robert
Wilson, a lot of them were making news. Most of these fellows became famous
later. They were just young fellows. Seaborg soon joined the group, too. They
started making all kinds of isotopes.

But to get back to the thyroid; I was thinking about it this morning.
Wherever you go in the world, even in India, why, people are treated with
radioactive iodine. If they got, say, ten millicuries, those patients would get ten R
whole body radiation; I think that's true. But that's an enormous amount of radiation
compared to fallout and compared to reactors. Reactors maybe give you a few
rnilli-R or more. Maybe one reactor would give half a milli-R to the general
population.

Of course when Hamilton first did it, he must have used even heavier doses than
that, didn't he?

No, I think those first two patients got about three millicuries.

I thought because the instrumentation was much more primitive larger doses had to
be given. Wasn't he using geiger counters?

Yes.

I thought you needed a bigger dose of radioisotope just to be detected.

Oh, no, you could detect it. No, the doses were smaller than they use now. They
were about three millicuries. Well now to get to my original statement: I think the

26

average patient was given about ten millicuries, and that gives you about one rem of
whole body radiation, which is 1 ,000 millirem. So that would be 1 0,000 millirem
for one patient's treatment. 6,000 R, the thyroid would get. And the body would get
six R. So the thyroid would be treated successfully with the dose of say six
millicuries. This would give 6,000 rads to the thyroid and six rads to the whole
body. Six rads is 6,000 millirads.

Now several people, including people in this Laboratory, have written
papers where they've followed patients who have received iodine-131 for Grave's
disease, thousands of cases. One of them is an Englishman by the name of Sir Eric
Pochen. Fellow about my age; he's still active. I saw him a couple of years ago in
Europe. They've shown that in a control group of people that have gotten this
treatment of radioactive iodine for Grave's disease, that there's no increase in cancer
or leukemia in them compared to the controls. Matter of fact, the controls have a
little bit more. Now that's a big dose of radiation. So you see, no one worries about
that. Here you get people who get 6,000 millirads or 10,000 millirads. And here
people get 2 or 3 millirads from reactors and they start worrying about it.

Three Mile Island, for instance, is a good example. There was nobody hurt
at Three Mile Island. There were only three people at Three Mile Island that got
over, I think, one rad, and they were working right around close. Most of them got
way down less. I saw a list of the doses recently when I was at this meeting in
Montreal. The one mistake they made was to shut off the water. Instead of leaving
it on, they'd shut it off, and then that caused the leak to happen. The cure for that
apparently is that they've got to train these operators a little better. If they'd called in
some engineers, it never would have happened and we'd have never read about it.

Hughes: What were the main reasons for your decision to come permanently to Berkeley?

Lawrence: I think the simple answer is that my brother and I were four years apart in high

school and college and yet we kept very close to each other regarding what we were
doing. When I was at Harvard and when I was at Yale, why, even though he was
never at Yale when I was at Yale, I'd see him at Yale and I would see him at
Harvard when I was a student. So I knew everything that he was doing, and he
knew what I was doing.

I never thought we'd ever get together, my brother and I, because we were in

27

different fields. Yet he and I talked about the lack of appreciation of basic science
in the average medical school. Medical students were advised to stay away from
mathematics and physics and chemistry, and take mostly biology. Gushing saw the
tremendous potential of this field of artificial radioactivity. But I still didn't plan to
come out here because I was working with leukemia and cancer — I had a large
colony of mice and rats with tumors and I was working also with pituitary radiation
because Gushing had patients with pituitary problems. So that's why I became
interested in the pituitary. But I didn't plan to come out here to stay. I came out
here just for a visit. That was in the summer of '35, and my brother had been here
for several years already.

When I came in '35 I discovered that they were working around a radiation
that they didn't know anything about, that is neutrons. So I borrowed a microscope
from Herbert Evans, and some rats and mice. There was a young physicist here
who was getting his Ph.D. with Ernest, Paul Aebersold. So we started to study the
effects of neutrons on these animals. Then I went back to Yale after the first series
of experiments and took a lot of the animals back with me. In the meantime we
hired a technician to help us here.

EARLY USE OF ARTIFICIAL RADIOISOTOPES AND NEUTRON
RADIATION

Lawrence: I kept coming back and forth over a period of two years. Then in the fall of '37 they
offered me a job out here, between here and the Medical School in San Francisco.
So my brother and I talked it over. There wasn't an awful lot of activity going on
here. Here we had all these isotopes available, but very few people were using
them. They were being made available to anybody that wanted to use them, but
there wasn't the excitement that we saw and Gushing saw. Gushing urged me, too;
he said, "I think you ought to do that if they offer you a job out there."

Hughes: Why was there so little enthusiasm?

Lawrence: I don't know. There were people in biochemistry and in physiology — fellows like
D. M. Greenberg and I. L. Chaikoff. We began using radioactive iron. Dr.
Chaikoff was professor of physiology and Greenberg was professor of biochemistry.
Then we'd send isotopes to Dr. George Whipple at the University of Rochester in

28

New York, and a young fellow by the name of Joe Ross, who is now emeritus
professor at UCLA, began using iron. We'd send George de Hevesy radioactive
phosphorous and other isotopes. There were many people that appreciated it, but
there didn't seem to be an awful lot of appreciation here. My first work was more or
less parallel with Joe Hamilton's work. Joe was then a medical interne in that
summer of '35 and he began using radioactive sodium in normal subjects.

Hughes: This was over at the Medical School?

Lawrence: I think he was doing most of the studies over here. On weekends he'd come over
here and that's when I first met Joe Hamilton. I'd have to go back and teach at Yale
and do ward rounds and take care of my experimental work back there. Three
months later the Macy Foundation and later the Markle Foundation would put up
my expenses; I'd come out third class on a train and do this about every three or four
months. Then in the summers I'd come out too. I made many trips out here that
way.

Hughes: What sort of arrangements did you make with Paul Aebersold while you were at

Yale? When you would go back to Yale after a trip to Berkeley, would you leave
instructions for him to carry on the experiments?

Lawrence: Well, he was a physicist, and I'm a physician, so it was a team. I couldn't have done
a lot of this work without his help and he couldn't have done without mine. We
would leave some of the animals here and he'd observe them, and he learned a lot of
biology and I learned a lot of physics. But that's the history of the Laboratory, both
on the Hill and at Dormer. That is what you'd call interdisciplinary research-
physics, chemistry, engineering. That's what we have here. We have M.D.s and
Ph.D.s in various fields. So Aebersold was very important and he became an expert
on the measurement of neutrons. I'd set up the experiment and study the animals
after they were exposed. Paul would do the physics of the dosimetry and the
measurements of the radiation to the animals

Hughes: How was he setting those standards in those very early days when so little was

known about the biological effects of neutrons?

Lawrence: Well, we'd always compare the biological effects of neutrons with the biological
effects of X-rays. And we still do that now in the work that's going on here. The

29

X-ray is the base and we found out that there is a variation in the effect per dose on
the white count of the rat or on the tumor or on the life of a rat — how long the rat
would live after a big dose. The ratio is all the way from two to maybe fifteen or
twenty depending on what object you're studying. We set up safety standards for
people working around the cyclotrons and limited the dose that they could receive
per day or per week or per month to one-tenth of that allowable to the average X-ray
worker on an X-ray machine.

Hughes: So you were more or less taking the average from all the biological experiments.

Lawrence: Yes. We'd take a rough average. I think the ratio of the lethal dose for a mouse or
rat was about one-fifth of that of X-rays. So we set it at about a tenth. Everybody
wore badges. We realized that neutrons were more dangerous than X-rays, but we
didn't know an awful lot about neutrons and we've learned a lot since and we're still
learning a lot about them.

Hughes: You and your brother were early wamers of the dangers of neutrons. Was that

warning heeded? Did other workers in the field take the necessary precautions?

Lawrence: I always felt badly about one thing. There were several places in the country that
built cyclotrons in which people would get too close to the beam and look into it
and then later have cataracts develop. We never had one here.

One of the first animals we exposed — I'm not sure that it wasn't the first
one — we encased in a little brass cylinder with an air inlet and an air outlet and this
was placed within the cyclotron between the two poles of the magnet near the
beryllium target which was being struck by deuterons (alpha particles). So Paul and
I told Ernest to turn off the cyclotron because we wanted to go back and see how the
rat was. Well, the rat was dead. That scared everybody because it had only been
exposed for about a minute and the dose was very low. We were very scared and
we then recommended increasing the shielding around the cyclotron. Later on we
found that the rat died of suffocation but not of radiation.

There were maybe twenty people in the United States that got cataracts
elsewhere. It was found that neutrons were very dangerous so nobody ever got
close to this beam after this. It was a beautiful beam to see — sort of like the
rainbow. You see the beam coming out of the cyclotron and it's very tempting to

30

get in and look at it. Then you'd get a big dose of neutrons, so we avoided that
thereafter.

Hughes: What was the attitude of physicists in the early days when you and Paul Aebersold

were using the cyclotron for biological experiments?

Lawrence: I don't have any memories of people competing for time to the extent that they didn't
like to have us around with the odor of rats and mice. But I can remember that there
was some competition for time. There were a lot of young fellows here, like Luis
Alvarez and Ed McMillan — they were a little older — then Bob Wilson who later
became director of the Fermi Lab. Those men were doing research and theses; they
wanted time, too. The cyclotron would break down a lot in those days, so that we
were sort of a nuisance.

Hughes: Was your brother pretty supportive of the biological work going on?

Lawrence: Yes. He was always... Most physicists if they think that they can do something that
would be helpful in medicine, being normal human beings, are glad to put
themselves out to help. I think that's a natural thing. When the subject of cancer
came up the physicists wanted to do all they could to help.

Hughes: I've read that one of the factors that supposedly influenced the biological application

of the cyclotron was that Ernest Lawrence decided that funding for biological
projects might be a bit easier than for some physical projects.

Lawrence: Yes and no. I don't think he was that practical. All of the early money for biology
and medicine I got. I raised that money from these foundations. For instance, when
they built that cyclotron on the Hill, the 1 84 inch, that had nothing to do with
biology and medicine. However, when our first experiments with neutrons showed
some selective effect on cancer cells, in getting Mr. William H. Crocker to build
Crocker Lab the possibility of cancer therapy was certainly used as a selling point.
Ernest wanted it for nuclear physics. I think that is true for the bevatron. What he
was after was to get exceedingly high energy beams. However he certainly used the
usefulness of medicine as a selling point. Radioactivity was obviously useful in
medicine, biology and biochemistry and there was the possible use of neutrons in
cancer therapy.

31

Hughes: Could you describe the laboratory accommodations you had when you first came

permanently from Yale.

Lawrence: Well, I came out on a vacation from my work at Yale where I was on the medical
faculty. I saw the Wilson cloud chamber over in the (Old Radiation) Laboratory
showing these very dense tracts and the very fine tracts when the cyclotron was
running. The Wilson cloud chamber was invented by a Scotsman who was a
mountain climber. His name was C. T. R. Wilson, and he would notice in the hills
or mountains of Scotland sudden formations of clouds. He said, those are really
condensation of water droplets around particles. From that he had the idea of
photographing ionization.

-

Luis Alvarez built a bubble chamber, which is based on a little different
principle. The cloud chamber that (Wilson) developed was sort of a piston that
would suddenly evacuate the chamber and cause it to be rarefied. It was full of
hydrogen gas, so therefore it was full of protons from neutron bombardment and
electrons. When it was being bombarded from the cyclotron, then the gamma rays
from the target and the deuterons from the target would hit this rarefied atmosphere
of hydrogen. There was something else in there too. The rarefaction would cause
these ions to gather on the particles. The neutrons being neutral would strike the
protons which are the same weight but have a positive charge. They would produce
two kinds of tracks — one, the fine tracks of electron ionization and the other, the
thick tracks of proton ionization. (The tracks) of the neutrons striking the protons
were very thick and long and in the background there were the very fine tracks
which were formed by gamma rays knocking off electrons from the hydrogen
atoms. X-rays would do the same thing. So here you had the visual picture of two
kinds of ionizations. One, a very dense ionization. That is, the ions are very close
together so the track would be sort of like a pencil. The track would be loaded with
little tracks. Then you'd have these long tracks — lots of those. Those tracks were
formed by electrons — very thin and scattered out ionization. These were dense
tracks formed by literally hundreds of ions per micron of track. They speak of the
transfer of energy per micron. We call it KEV per micron. A hundred KEV is a
hundred thousand electron volts transferred per micron of travel.

So I became interested in this. Here were all these young fellows like Ed
McMillan and Robert Wilson who later became head of the Fermi Lab. Many other
young fellows that were working here were being exposed to this kind of radiation.

32

No one had ever studied that kind of radiation before.

Hughes: Was there any shielding on the cyclotron?

Lawrence: There was shielding, sure. The total amount of radiation was very great around the
cyclotron. But the quality was not particularly being attended to because no one
knew about the quality. One roentgen or one red of radiation of the fine ionization
was what you measured in cancer therapy with gamma rays or X-rays. One red of
that is potentially different than one red of this dense ionization.

Paul Aebersold became an expert on the measurement of ionization,
particularly dense ionization. Now we have a man here who is probably the greatest
expert in the world. That's John Lyman. Right away I borrowed some rats from
Herbert Evans, who was a famous biologist down in the Life Sciences Building and
then I went over to Cowell Hospital and borrowed some blood counting pipettes and
a microscope. I did all the work over there. I stayed here for about a month (in the
summer of 1935) and we did the first experiments on the biological effects of
neutron rays. Ninety-five percent of this radiation, Paul figured out, was proton
ionization which is dense ionization. It's produced by neutrons hitting the protons,
knocking them forward. We used a figure of about ten to one, the killing power of
neutrons, the power of knocking down the white count.

Those heavy particles were found to produce cataracts. We never got a
cataract here because after these experiments were carried out Ernest and his staff
added a lot more shielding. No one ever got in close to the cyclotron and watched
this beautiful beam come out because they were scared. We found that these
(neutrons) were much more effective per unit dose (than X-rays).

Hughes: When you did come permanently from Yale in 1937 did Ernest give you space in

the old Rad Lab?

Lawrence: (Even before I came to Berkeley on a permanent basis) I got a technician to work

for me and she would stay here and Paul would work with her while I was gone. I'd
come and spend about two months when I was not teaching (at Yale). I had my
own laboratory at Yale. I had a colony of mice and rats, normal and with tumors,
and a technician working for me and a couple of students working with me—
wonderful facilities there. Also I had a colony of ferrets at Yale for several years.

33

Hughes:
Lawrence:

So I kept the two places going: the laboratory at Yale and a small facility
here in the Old Radiation Lab. The physicists didn't like that very well. I had a lot
of good friends among physicists. One of them was here recently and called me but
I didn't see him. His name was Bernard Kinsey. He just retired as professor of
physics at the University of Texas. I used to keep the mice there too. The physicists
didn't like the odor of mice. Bernard and I were very good friends. Once in a while
he'd say with an Oxford accent, "God's bloody bladders! What an odor!" (Laughs)

But the rats stayed.

Well, the rats stayed. I don't know how long we worked in that old lab. I think we
were there for a couple of years and then Crocker Laboratory was built. I don't
remember the year that Crocker was built. Ernest got the funds from Mr. Crocker in
San Francisco who was a member of the Board of Regents. In those days there
were no government funds.

Hughes: That was '37.

Lawrence: The first experiments I did were in '35 with the old cyclotron which was in the old
building (the Old Radiation Laboratory).

Hughes: Yes. It would have been the 27 inch when you first came and then that was

expanded to a 37 inch in 1936.

Lawrence: So we worked over there (in the Old Radiation Laboratory) and then pretty soon we
moved over to Crocker. We had a laboratory of our own there and a technician and
then a nice, small animal room.

Hughes: Who else was in Crocker in those very early days when it first opened?

Lawrence: Joe Hamilton was in Crocker too although he was in the Medical School some of
the time. He was very active with sodium and radioactive iodine, those two
particularly.

Hughes: You mentioned Herbert Evans. Did Dr. Evans have any other connection with the

Radiation Lab?

34

Lawrence: No. Ernest and I considered him a really great man. I know he was a great asset to
the University of California and one of the great leaders in endocrinology and
physiology. We had great respect for him.

I had my brother painted by the artist Guido Greganti who was sent over
here by the Pope (Cardinal Pacelli) because 1 went over to take care of Cardinal
Stepinac who was sick, and I had an audience with the Pope. After I got back he
sent over the Vatican's artist plus a Monsignor and they spent some time here to
paint me. Well I said, "I don't want to be painted. But there are some other people
that I'd like to have painted, like my wife and my brother and so forth."

Hughes: I was wondering when I was going over some of the early experimental work on the

effect of neutrons why you often removed the tumor to expose it to the radiation?

Lawrence: One of the difficulties of neutrons is that you can't aim neutrons. That's the trouble
with the neutron therapy which I'm going to see again in London when I go in
September. Neutrons have no charge. You can't rum them around the comer. Pi
mesons which they're using in Los Alamos or heavy particles we use here, we can
turn them around the comer. But with neutrons, it's just a beam of radiation coming
in all directions. You collimate them with shields. Neutrons can't be aimed. We
couldn't take a small mouse with a little tumor, say as big as the end of your finger,
and aim a neutron beam at it. So what we would do is remove the tumors and then
place them in little cellophane packets and irradiate them. Then take pieces of them
and inject them into another receptor mouse and then watch them grow.

I ran onto some charts the other day from the attic in which I'd made
drawings of those early experiments. Every week I'd make a drawing of the size of
the tumor or note whether the tumor disappeared. That's the way we determined the
effects of neutrons on tumors. That technique is still used in the ascites tumors and
I've used it too in the pi meson work that I did six, eight years ago. You irradiate the
whole animal who has an ascites tumor. Then you just take and pull out some of
that ascites fluid and inject that into another mouse. With pi mesons and with heavy
particles like carbon and neon and protons, you can aim the radiation right at the
tumor in the animal. But you couldn't do that with neutrons.

Hughes: Can you tell me who first had the idea of applying radioisotopes in medicine?

35

Lawrence: Oh, I suppose Hevesy in bacteria and in animals. This was obvious. I don't think
that's very important. Harvey Gushing right away saw the tremendous potential of
radioactive isotopes when I was working with him. Anybody could see that. You
got two things: you got a tracer and you've got a source of radiation. You can
follow things in the body, study metabolism in disease and metabolism in normal
animals and normal people. You treat cancer by getting the isotope into the cancer.
Or treat a thyroid tumor by getting it in there. It's very obvious. Hevesy happens to
have been the first one that used an isotope, radium D. He was a great man, and
visited us several times and worked here one summer.

Hughes: Do you remember anything about the scheduling of the 37 inch cyclotron for the

production of radioisotopes? I'm trying to get at exactly how time was partitioned
off for use of any of the cyclotrons.

Lawrence: I suppose Ernest had a committee. There were so many physicists and they were
making discoveries all the time. They wanted time to find new isotopes.

Hughes: Do you remember having to fight for time?

Lawrence: No, we never fought. I think that Stone was sort of unhappy that, being in charge of
an X-ray tube, he couldn't use the (cyclotron) anytime he wanted. I think there's
pressure right now. That's always true if you've got an exciting program in physics,
chemistry, medicine and biology. There's a competition between biology and the
clinical use of isotopes.

Hughes: When the 60 inch cyclotron began to operate in 1939 did that mean that all

production of radioisotopes for clinical purposes switched to the 60 inch?

Lawrence: Yes.

Hughes: So the 37 inch became solely for pure physics and the 60 inch became pure

medicine and biology.

Lawrence: Not exactly. We transferred over to the 60 inch. It was for physics, chemistry,
biology and medicine.

36

Hughes: Can you tell me something about how radioisotopes were distributed, particularly

off campus? Would you give them to anybody that asked?

Lawrence: Yes, anybody. As a matter of fact, we tried to distribute them to people even if they
didn't want them. We thought they should use them. For example, we had nobody
in the Laboratory that knew anything about iron metabolism and we had isotopes of
iron being made. So we shipped them to the greatest iron center in the country and
that was Rochester, New York, where George Whipple was working. For many
years we didn't use iron here at all until a young fellow by the name of Rex Huff and
I began using it in patients. That was pioneering work in medicine. Then we sent to
the Mayo Clinic radioactive phosphorous for the treatment of leukemia and
polycythemia. We sent radioactive phosphorous to Dr. Cooper in Australia. We
sent that all over when they'd request it. We sent iron and phosphorous and sodium
to a lot of people on the campus, like Dr. D. M. Greenberg in biochemistry and
Dr. Chaikoff. So anybody on the campus that wanted isotopes could get them.

Hughes: How much cyclotron time was devoted to the production of radioisotopes?

Lawrence: Not very much time. They could make so much so fast. They could make

millicuries of sodium. Unbelievable the amounts that they could make. Martin
Kamen was very helpful in making these isotopes, to me and to everybody around.
He was in charge of arranging bombardments. He's retired as a professor of
biochemistry at San Diego. He was wonderful. He did more things for more
people. Some chemist had to arrange to do these bombardments for us. We'd help,
but it had to be a chemist.

Hughes: He was primarily in charge of the bombardments?

Lawrence: Yes. He made the first carbon-1 1 . Did I mention Sam-
Hughes: Ruben?

Lawrence: Martin made for Sam the first carbon-1 1 and Sam was the first one to show

photosynthesis with radioactive isotopes, using carbon-1 1 before we had carbon- 14.

Hughes:

Before Calvin, then.

37

Lawrence: Oh, yes, before Calvin. He antedated Calvin. I think Calvin wasn't here then. I told
you about Sam and the phosgene gas?

Hughes: Yes.

Lawrence: I was with him when he died. He would have been a famous man by now because
he was a famous young assistant professor of chemistry — a very striking personality
and a wonderful guy.

Hughes: That was tragic. What happened after the war when Oak Ridge took over so much

of the production of radioisotopes? Did the 60 inch continue to make radioisotopes
for worldwide distribution?

Lawrence: Well, less and less because Oak Ridge made most of them. We moved the 60 inch
to Davis and the 37 inch to UCLA. Now there are lots of cyclotrons that Bill
Brobeck has built all over the world. Now they're busier than ever making isotopes
because the isotopes now that are exciting are the ones that Tom Budinger's using,
the so-called positron emitters. The isotopes now that are exciting are fluorine- 18,
carbon-11, iron-52.

Tom is using a lot of other positron emitters where the radiation comes out
directly opposite. Two gamma rays come out with a positron so that you can
localize exactly where the isotope is in the body with an Anger camera. So they're
using that now in localizing the beam. The beam strikes the target and then the two
opposing gammas come out. With the double camera you can see exactly where the
beam is so you can place it wherever you want. Well, you couldn't do that before.
They're using it now in medicine. The other thing is that the positron emitters are
very short lived.

I have a lantern slide that shows the dose of radiation that people were
allowed to receive fifty years ago and forty years ago and thirty years ago and
twenty years ago, and it's just gone down and down and down. Now I think it's
gotten to be sort of a psychosis. I came in on a plane last night and sat next to a
fellow from Los Angeles and he was asking me about atomic reactors. I said, it's
the cleanest form of energy we've got right now. You're allowed to receive about
twice the background radiation which is about a hundred milli-R a year, but if you
go to Denver you get a hundred and twenty and if you fly to New York a few times

Hughes:

38

you get about a hundred and ten. They've gone too far in stopping reactor building
in California. France is going ahead fast. West Germany's fast. Russia's fast.
There's no evidence that these low levels do any harm. But I think X-ray
departments are a little careless. I think that lots of times they give you maybe more
radiation than necessary for a (gastrointestinal) series. I'm against that. But a
hundred milli-R.... It's too bad that the people have been aroused against radiation
to the extent that it's damaging the welfare of medicine and also energy. But we'll
start building reactors again.

May I read you a quote from your paper in Northwest Medicine and ask you to
comment on it?

Lawrence: Yes.

Hughes: You said, referring to the early work with radioisotopes, that: "...one was usually

pointed out as a 'half-quack' or long-haired dreamer, either doing these things that
were unethical or dangerous to the patient or spending time carrying out studies and
developing treatments that had no real application in medical research and practice."

Lawrence: Well, there was something to that. Hospitals and medical schools didn't have the
isotopes, they didn't have the facilities. Radiation wasn't respectable when I was a
medical student and it isn't now among a lot of doctors. X-ray therapy of cancer and
diagnosis is all right, but we were treating people and....

That statement's a little bit strong but I was referring there to the work that I
did on the treatment of polycythemia vera which is a standard treatment now. But
for many years people said that it was dangerous to give a radioactive isotope in a
dose that would produce biological effect. But as a result of my work, and I wrote a
book on it at one time, thousands of people have been treated with radioactive
phosphorous, for polycythemia and leukemia. For polycythemia it's the best
treatment, but some of the textbooks for many years criticized it. Even my
professors that I later saw criticized it. And I said, can you show me any results like
the results that we get? I said, we follow these people for five, ten, fifteen, twenty,
twenty-five, thirty years and there are no results like it in the literature. But they
were against radiation.

I spent three weekends with Harrison Martland in New Jersey, who

39

discovered the people who had bone tumors and necrosis of the bones from
(pointing their brushes while) painting dial watches with radium. I gave the
Harrison Martland lecture many years ago — and I went down there and I became
thoroughly knowledgeable on alpha particles. And I knew there was a difference
before the experimental work was done. Alpha particles from plutonium and
uranium, I wasn't dealing with those. Before I ever gave an isotope to a human
being I became very familiar with all the work on radium poisoning. Then I started
using radioisotopes in patients and the results were remarkable. That statement is a
little over done but it was a new field and it still is new .

I gave a talk in Vancouver last fall on the treatment of acromegaly and
Cushing's disease and Nelson's syndrome to a group of standard internists,
professors of medicine up and down the coast. (Dr. Tobias, my long time physicist
colleague, did the first work in animals with heavy particles, which led us to start
using them in therapy.) They finally recognized us about twenty-five years ago but
in the early days you were just out of the line. Even now a lot of people don't know
much about isotopes and radiation.

I have two boys that are surgeons and they don't know much about (isotopes
and radiation). One of them worked in the lab in the evenings with me one year
when he was an eighth grader and did some experiments with ascites tumors and he
worked on somatostatin with Dr. Joe Garcia one summer, but he's not research
minded. He's a surgeon and the other one the same way. Radioisotopes and
radiation were so new that you had to get a new generation of doctors. And now
you've got them. They're all over the world now. But in those days we had a comer
on the market. We'd furnish the isotopes to people who wanted them. We'd never
turn anybody down. We wanted to get them out, both for therapy and for tracer
research.

Hughes: Later on when your appointment here became permanent after 1937, were you also

spending time at the Medical School? I'm talking now about the pre-war era.

Lawrence: Yes. The dean over there was a good friend of mine, Langley Porter, and he was
naturally interested in this work, and he was a great supporter of mine. But I
couldn't work in the Medical School and work over here, and so that.... It'd be only
natural that the Medical School would be interested in this work. But the only one
at the Medical School who was really actively interested in doing work was Joe

40
Hamilton. But a lot of people on this campus were interested.

I used to go over to the Medical School and work in Dr. Robert S. Stone's
department a couple of days a week when we began treating patients with neutrons.
But I soon got out of that because it didn't look hopeful to me. And I got more
interested in radioactivity.

Hughes: Was Stone at all interested in radioisotopes as a treatment for cancer?

Lawrence: No, he wasn't interested in that. He was primarily what we'd call a teletherapist, and
an excellent one. He treated my mother with the Sloan tube and cured her.

Hughes: Hamilton in those early days was going back and forth between Berkeley and the

Medical School too. He was doing that independently of you?

Lawrence: Well, everybody does things more or less independently.
Hughes: Well, sometimes you collaborate on research.

Lawrence: I was working with P-32, and was interested in therapy. He was more or less

interested in tracers, but he got into therapy and we didn't have anybody here that
was experienced enough to handle thyroid disease. So he got a man by the name of
Mayo Soley from the Medical School to help on that. That was a time consuming
thing. So that was going on here all the time.

Hughes: I thought maybe because it was such a new field that perhaps you were

communicating or...

Lawrence: Oh, we were communicating, yes, sure.

Hughes: But Hamilton had his own specific research interests and you had yours.

Lawrence: I was working in the Crocker Laboratory until I got the money for Dormer. Then I
moved over to Dormer and turned over my office over there to him, and the animal
colony space, everything. So he was in a different building. We'd see each other at
meetings, and when we developed the Division of Biophysics and Medical Physics,
why we'd see each other in connection with that.

41

Hughes: Can you tell me anything about the decision to treat a patient on Christmas Eve in

1937 with P-32 for the first time?

Lawrence: Well, it was a very obvious thing to do. Kenneth Scott was in on it, and Lowell Erf
was in on it, as I remember it.

Hughes: Was Larry Turtle in on it?

Lawrence: Larry Tuttle was in on it. We did a lot of work on mice, with and without leukemia.
Hardin Jones was in on it. And I. W. Chaikoff, I think, on one paper. We did a lot
of work on the distribution of P-32 in the normal mouse and the leukemic mouse.
Then I had a colony of leukemic mice. We found out that the P-32 localized where
you wanted it: bone marrow, liver and spleen. So it is a natural to use this to treat
patients with chronic leukemia. It obviously was successful in the sense that there's
nothing better right today. They usually treat them with chemicals now, but they
get the same results that we got. For several years we wrote many papers on this,
and the results were pretty good in some people. Some people lived five, ten,
fifteen years. But most of them wouldn't. And it was tough work.

Hughes: What were Erf and Tuttle doing specifically in those experiments?

Lawrence: I can't remember, except we were all working together.

Hughes: Tuttle as I remember was not a physician.

Lawrence: No, he was a Ph.D., I think. And he later went to the A.E.C. We were a team.

Hughes: I was just wondering what everybody's role was. Scott I believe was in charge of

determining things like dose.

Lawrence: Well, yes. I can't remember that specifically, but Scott was technically very good.
Hughes: Do you remember how Tuttle came into the picture?

Lawrence: Can't remember that, no. I think he came to me like Hardin Jones and Tobias; they
just came to me and said they want to work here. A lot of people that came in those

Hughes:

42

early days just came and said, "I'd like to work here." We had a reputation of being
anxious to get good people and giving them a lot of freedom.

A lot of the best people we've got, like Saul Winchell, came that way. One
of the best men we've ever had, Tom Budinger, more or less came that way. I saw
him the other night. But Saul Winchell was one of the best we've ever had. He just
came over to see me when he was an intern over in San Francisco. He said, "I'd like
to come over here and work." Rex Huff was a pioneer that called me on the phone
and wanted to come out here and work after he got an internship. He became very
well-known for his work with radioactive iron and many other isotopes. He and I
worked together with iron.

Before you even came to Berkeley on a permanent basis, did your brother try to find
anybody that was interested in doing biological experiments with the effects of
neutrons?

Lawrence: Yes, he did. Actually, the first summer that I came here was about the first time
they became available. So in a sense I preempted anybody else. I didn't do it on
purpose. I was here and I didn't come out for that purpose. I was on vacation. But I
think also just before I came Ernest tried to get some people interested on the
campus here. People weren't interested in radiation and a lot of people aren't
interested in radiation now. Radiation was frowned upon by doctors in those days
and now too. They say it's not the answer to cancer. They weren't worried so much
about the safety of people either.

Hughes: But in those days they didn't know that it wasn't the answer to cancer — that is, some

forms.

Lawrence: No, but it was just a new form of radiation and they were doing their own research
and there was no money; I had to get the money to carry out the work in the first
few years. A lot of people didn't really see the importance of radiation.

We have a fellow in this Laboratory right now who's famous, Hal Anger,
who developed scanners. He with Val Mayneord in England and Benedict Cassen
at U.C.L.A. were the pioneers in cameras and in scanning. People say, "Well, over
in Dormer Laboratory they develop instruments." Well, a lot of biologists and
scientists don't care about instruments. That shouldn't be important in the

43

University. But things have changed. Well, his instruments are used all over the
world. He got all kinds of prizes for them. I wasn't interested in instruments either
but I supported him and helped him a lot and he's still working here. A lot of people
didn't appreciate radiation or instruments of any kind. Everybody knows they're
very important now.

Hughes: I understand that in 1936 you advised your brother not to make the proposed

medical biological lab, which became the Crocker Laboratory, a national radiation
cancer laboratory. Do you remember your reasons for giving him that advice?

Lawrence: That is not true. I said that I thought that the Laboratory should be very broad in
biology and medicine, including cancer. I said that radiation is not going to be the
answer to cancer and if you're going to build the Laboratory just around radiation
treatment of cancer, I think that' d be too narrow. It should be for the application of
physics, chemistry and the natural sciences to problems in biology and medicine.

Hughes: Was your brother more enthusiastic about the radiation treatment of cancer than you

were?

Lawrence: He had the radiations. He wanted to see them tried and so did I. I saw that if we

said that we were going to cure cancer and built the Laboratory around that, and not
make it a general medical research laboratory including cancer, I thought that would
be a mistake.

Hughes: Who first realized the potential of using high energy beams for medical uses?

Lawrence: Well, in the case of neutrons, Paul Aebersold and I did a series of experiments.

Later Dr. Hardin Jones was in on it too and Dr. Cornelius A. Tobias soon was in
on it. We showed that in these mice that I had that had various kinds of tumors that
per unit dose neutron ionization was more damaging to the cancer cells than the
normal cells. We didn't then understand that — we understand it now — because we
were dealing with a dense form of ionization compared to X-ray ionization. Dense
ionization is biologically destructive independent of the amount of oxygen that's
present in the tissues. Well it just happened that in those days in our experimental
set-up our tumor cells were relatively low in oxygen content, so we were fooled in a
sense. We said, "We have a radiation here that picks out cancer and kills it and
spares the normal cells." Well, that was because we were exposing cancer cells in a

44

situation where they didn't have as much oxygen as the normal cells did. Later, due
to the work of Hal Gray in England — who used to come here — and others, the
so-called oxygen effect was discovered. That's the exciting thing about what we've
been doing the last twenty-five, thirty years with very heavy particles like carbon
and neon. Dense ionization will kill tissues whether there's oxygen there or not, and
that's the reason that patients with cancer today are being treated up on the Hill with
a beam of carbon, which produces very dense ionization. The key man in the work
with charged particles was and is Cornelius Tobias, a long time close colleague.

The mice experiments are what started us in the field of cancer therapy and
the reason we got Dr. Stone to come over from the Medical School. I think Ernest
used that argument in getting the building for the 60 inch cyclotron given by Mr.

*

William H. Crocker. We already were using the 39 inch which had nothing to do
with cancer. But the 60 inch I think was funded partly to use in the treatment of
cancer. Then we got Dr. Stone, a very experienced radiotherapist, and he treated, I
think, a couple of hundred patients with cancer. Then the war came along and that
had to be stopped. Now it's being done at eight or ten or twelve centers in the
world. It's too early to say how it's going to turn out but that's another long story.

Hughes: The first cancer patient was treated on the 37 inch cyclotron in September of '37. I

was wondering how you came to the decision to treat a human.

Lawrence: That was due to the fact that Paul and I found that when we irradiated these

packages of tumors, and then also irradiated animals we found that the tumors were
killed with a lower dose than the animals were. I can remember Ernest saying, "Oh,
it looks like neutron ionization has a special effect on cancer." That's when we
started talking to Bob Stone who was the radiotherapist who later treated my mother
for cancer. We thought that there was a favorable differential sensitivity of cancer
cells. We tried various kinds of cancer, like breast cancer, lymph node cancer, and
then the lymphoma type of cancer, all in mice. I had a wonderful set of tumors that
I had at Yale that I was working with. Then we got Stone and that's the way neutron
therapy started.

Hughes: Before you knew about this oxygen effect and when it was determined that there

were bad effects from the neutron therapy, do you think that held off the therapeutic
use of radiation for a number of years? In those postwar years, for example? Robert
Stone wrote a paper in 1948 in which he said that all neutron therapy should be

45

stopped, that both the immediate and the late effects were too severe to warrant the
small benefit.

Lawrence: Yes, he overdosed. I remember that I became somewhat disinterested in that work.
I worked on it for the first year, then we got a young doctor from the Brigham
Hospital, Dr. John C. Larkin, to come out. I saw the tremendous potential of
radioactivity and began working with radioactive phosphorous, radioactive iron and
other isotopes. But I could see that nothing really great was happening with the
neutron therapy and the reason that some of the patients were overdosed.... In
defense of the work, all those patients were going to be terminal. So I don't think it
was an example of patients being hurt. There were some patients that did pretty
well. I think there are a few patients living yet. Dr. Stone was an outstanding
radiotherapist.

Hughes: But do you think that slowed down the whole field of radiation therapy? The

Dormer work on heavy particle therapy really doesn't come into the picture until the
'50s. So there's at least a ten year gap.

Lawrence: Let's see now how I can discuss that. When the 184 inch cyclotron was operating,
Robert Wilson wrote a paper on the Bragg peak. I think he got his Ph.D. here and
he was a postdoctoral fellow. He wrote a paper which he published in Radiology, a
journal, and he saw the potential of the Bragg peak in cancer therapy. If you have
X-rays striking the skin, as you go down to the depths of the tissues, the dose will
fall off so that the skin dose is much greater than the dose deep in the tissues. Of
course that's the reason that you rotate the patients and use multiple fields. The
Bragg peak from heavy particles like protons or alpha particles or neon or carbon,
produces a much larger dose in the depths than on the skin surface. He was just
thinking about the geometry and the cancer differential effect which we didnt
understand.

I think the important thing is the dense ionization because cancers generally
are anoxic or hypoxic. If you get the geometry, that's helpful but that can be
handled by rotation and by multiple fields. The only hope, to my mind, for neutrons
and for heavy particles is dense ionization, not the geometry. Neutrons have very
poor geometry; they're like X-rays. But heavy particles, charged particles, have
good geometry. But it's that dense ionization so that if you hit a tumor which is
lacking in oxygen, it'll still kill it. I think that during the next ten years Dr. Castro

46

and his colleagues on the Hill are going to be able to cure some cancers that now are
100% fatal.

To get back to your question about slowing down. I think the neutron
experience was so discouraging that I think that didjiave an effect. Alpha particles
were all they had then, and alpha particles produced no increase in relative
biological effect nor was there the so-called oxygen effect, as one gets with heavier
particles like carbon, argon and neon.

Well, we were trying to decide whether to use the Bragg peak from the 1 84
inch for cancer therapy after Bob Wilson had written this article. So I got Merrill
Sosman who was professor of radiology at Harvard, one of my teachers. Then we
got Dr. Stafford Warren, who was a radiologist and was the new dean of the
medical school at UCLA. My brother and I both knew him in the East; he came
from Rochester, New York. And Dr. Stone, Dr. Tobias, my brother, myself, and
several others. That's when we had this meeting: whether we should start using
protons and alpha particles in the general treatment of cancer but we began using
these particles in treating small lesions like the pituitary and small brain tumors.
Also, they are being used now on the Hill, training our new team up there. And it's
being used at Harvard with their cyclotron. But it's not going to do very much
because with rotation you can do about the same thing with X-rays and gamma rays.
That is, you can rotate your patient or you can rotate the tube. So you can spare the
skin and get an adequate dose in, in the general treatment of cancer. However, early
on we used the sharpness of the alpha particle beam and the Bragg Peak to treat
small volumes such as the pituitary, or small brain tumors and this continues now.

During the war, the 1 84 inch cyclotron was used to make uranium 235.
They built Oak Ridge on the basis of that first calutron unit up there on the Hill.
They built multiple cyclotrons; they called them calutron.

I am excited now about the Bragg peak of really heavy particles. When the
bevalac came along fifteen years ago, Dr. Tobias and I tried to get a machine that
would produce heavy particles and we finally got it by tying up the Hilac and the
bevatron suggested by Ghiorso on the Hill. Then we got excited again. I don't think
there's been any lost time except in the case of neutrons. But that was picked up
over 15 years ago. This was started the first time about 1938. It was picked up
again probably in the early fifties in England.

47

Hughes: Yes, there was all that work at the Hammersmith Hospital.

Lawrence: Yes, I go there every year. They've been treating patients with neutrons there for
fifteen years.

Hughes: Did Robert Stone do any neutron therapy after the war?

Lawrence: No.

Hughes: Going back to the early days again, could you say something about your official

relationship to the Medical School and the Radiation Lab when you first arrived
from Yale and were going to stay at Berkeley on a permanent basis?

Lawrence: I'd go over there to the Medical School about three half-days a week and work with
patients with Dr. Stone, or work some in the medical clinic with students.

Hughes: Were people at the Medical Center other than Robert Stone supportive or interested

in the work that you were doing?

Lawrence: Yes, they were interested. Of course, the Medical School in those days was not like
the Medical School now. At that time it was not one of the great medical schools in
the country. The work there was primarily done by people who were clinically
oriented. The first two years of medicine were over here in Berkeley, and those are
the people who were interested in isotopes as tracers.

Earl Miller came over here and took charge of our radiation safety program
in the Laboratory during the war. He was a young assistant professor and now he's
retired as a professor of radiology.

Hughes: How close did the standards used during the war follow the standards that you had

set up in the early days for workers around the cyclotron?

Lawrence: I can't answer that because I've gotten out of that field now, but I think roughly the
same.

Hughes:

What about the response of funding agencies to the new field of nuclear medicine?

48
Did you find it was fairly easy to raise money for your projects in the early days?

Lawrence: Well, it wasn't easy. It took a lot of work. I worked like the devil on getting this
first Dormer Laboratory building by getting Mr. William Dormer out here. I saw
him in the East several times. This building here (the Dormer Laboratory addition) I
got through Mr. Dormer's son Robert. The Dormer Pavilion where patients are
studied and treated and taken care of while they're being treated, was from private
funds from patients that we'd treated or from friends and foundations who made
donations and from the A.E.C.

Then we'd get private grants. I'm talking about nuclear medicine now. We'd
get private grants from the Markle Foundation, which was a pretty big foundation,
from the Macy Foundation, and the Rockefeller Foundation. There were no
government funds then. So it took a lot of work. The same way with Ernest. He
spent a lot of time raising money. For instance on the board of the Rockefeller
Foundation was George Whipple, who later was dean of the medical school at
Rochester. We sent him radioactive iron. He was very much interested in anemias
and he got the Nobel Prize for discovering liver as a treatment for pernicious
anemia. He appreciated the fact that cyclotrons here were being used to send him
iron. Naturally he'd be sympathetic when Ernest went after the foundation to get a
one-and-a-quarter million dollars to build that 1 84 inch cyclotron. One and a
quarter million dollars, remember that. I can remember some people on the campus
saying. "What a waste of money to build a machine for a million and a quarter
dollars." Warren Weaver was the executive head of the Rockefeller Foundation and
he's the one that put that over. That was an awful lot of money in those days. But it
was very hard to get money in those days. You had to sell it yourself.

RELATIONSHIP WITH ERNEST LAWRENCE

Hughes: hi the few letters that I've seen between your brother- and yourself, there seems to

have been a very intimate relationship. You seemed to be very close. Can you tell
me anything about his influence on your career, if any? I know, for example, that he
gave you a fair amount of advice when you were in medical school. Can you say
something about your brother and his relationship with you?

Lawrence: We were far enough apart so that we didn't see each other very much. In other

49

words, when I was in eighth grade he was a senior in high school and when I was a
senior in high school he was a senior in college. But we were pretty close brothers.
I did have the ability of spotting people, like Harvey Gushing. Harvey Gushing I
knew was a great man. And I knew my brother was a great man. He was a great
guy personally. But I also knew that he really was somebody. I don't think he knew
it so much himself. He was very easy to get along with, very intense. He was
wonderful at seminars and very generous. He was very excited about research and
could stimulate people really to do things. He appreciated Harvey Gushing.
Gushing helped him write his first commencement address. I think it was about the
only one he ever gave. I got him in with Dr. Gushing.

Well, to answer the question about his influence on me: sure, he had a lot of
influence on me. When I was in the second year of college, I wasn't doing very
well. I was on the basketball team and not getting very good grades. I was just
having a good time and not studying very much. That was the first time I was
aware that I'd better get going. By the time I graduated I was the first Phi Beta
Kappa from that University. (South Dakota) Then I kept it right up so that when I
was a third year medical student I was number one in my class at Harvard. And
then Gushing took me out of school in the middle of my last year and said, "You
don't have to go to school any more." I said, "Well, I've got to get my M.D." He
said, "I'll take care of that." So I started interning and working with him.

But I do think that my brother being so successful and so enthusiastic did
have a tremendous influence on me. He had a real influence on me and great
empathy. Well, he was that way with a lot of people; a lot of these young fellows
that came out of the Radiation Laboratory got that kind of influence from him. He'd
just get you fired up; He was a great person to get you fired up.

That's what I've tried to do with my boys. We have three boys and a
daughter. One of them is a very good heart surgeon. The other one is an assistant
resident of surgery and the third one is going to UC Berkeley this year. Our
daughter teaches, is married to an engineer and has three children.

But Ernest did have that influence on me, there's no question about it. We
were very good friends although we didn't see each other in the Laboratories
because he was so busy and I was so busy and the program that I developed was so
big — not the size of his program but it was still big. We'd get al] kinds of help from

50

Hughes:
Lawrence:
Hughes:
Lawrence:

Hughes:

Lawrence:

him too and from his staff. We really were the biological and medical section of the
Radiation Laboratory. Soon they appointed me Director of Dormer because we
were brothers and in the University they thought we ought to be separated by
separate appointments. I didn't ask for it.

I never intended to get together with Ernest; we thought that there were too
many difficulties in doing that. But we saw each other a lot and then that accidental
experiment that I did while on vacation out here got me more enthusiastic about it.
We talked about it and we decided both of us were big enough to handle it (being
brothers in the same institution). We never really had any major problems because
he was famous at a very young age and I was a leader at my level. So he and I
thought we could handle things.

To go back to the influence of my brother: I have a fantastic group of letters
from him from before I came to California. We used to write each other about once
every week or ten days. In his letters he'd cover his social life, his scientific life, his
teaching, his graduate students and everything. A lot of his work that he later wrote
papers on is in these letters that he wrote to me. He'd write me sometimes a two or
three page letter, written on both sides longhand, from the Faculty Club.

Would you consider giving copies of those letters to the University?

The University will eventually get copies of them. I've got double copies of them.

Yes. Those would be most interesting.

He was so excited about his work that he'd take the time to write me about what he
was doing scientifically and dinners that he'd go to or girls that he'd take out. We
were very close brothers. We were both pretty independent but we never had any
jealousies.

Would you mind telling me a little bit about the decision to have your mother
treated on the Sloan million volt X-ray apparatus? That was in 1937.

I ran onto some correspondence with the doctor there in Aberdeen, South Dakota. I
guess that's in some correspondence that I promised eventually the University could
take over. I've got that at home I think, and I've got double copies of it. She went to

51
the Mayo Clinic with my father. This was in '37, 1 think.

Hughes: I know she was treated on the Sloan X-ray tube in '37.

Lawrence: They found that she had an inoperable type of cancer of the uterus that couldn't be
treated. My brother and I were on the phone with the doctors out there. We decided
that I ought to go out there, so I went out to the Mayo Clinic. I was relatively
unknown and right in front of my father one of the specialists said that she had
about three months to live. I said, "Well, could I see the records?" I remember this
very well because I was a fairly aggressive young guy then but not very
well-known. He said, "No, they don't show the records to family doctors or
relatives." 1 said, "I'm going to talk to Dr. Balfour." Dr. Balfour was the director of

-

the Mayo Foundation and a famous surgeon. He'd been here two or three times. So
I got him on the phone and he came right down and opened up all the records for
me. He embarrassed these specialists. They had a big consultation.

So then I got on the phone with Ernest. I said, "They don't want to treat her
here with radiation. How about my bringing her out and we'll talk to Dr. Stone?"
We did talk to Dr. Stone and he said, "Sure, I'll take her." So I took her on the train,
wheeled her across the station in Omaha. I had to change trains from Rochester.
She was bleeding. She was pretty sick and I couldn't get a bedroom for her so I just
got a lower berth and got her out here. She was about 67 or 68 years old then. Then
I took her to San Francisco to be seen by a famous gynecologist, Dr. Ludwig Emge.
he was professor of gynecology at Stanford. Then Dr. Stone saw her of course, and
they started treating her through four fields (JHL demonstrates the four fields in the
pelvic region.) To make a long story short, this massive tumor just started
evaporating. At the end often years my mother finally agreed that she must be
cured. It took me about ten years to convince her and she died at 83 and had the
best years of her life. That's written up some place. It was really, really a fantastic
result.

I used to drive her back and forth every day after the first week or two and
I'd have to stop by the curb and let her lean out and have emesis, radiation sickness.
I'd stand by and encourage Dr. Stone to give as big a dose as he could. I had to go
through this business of seeing radiation sickness which you saw a lot of those days.
But she was cured, no question about it.

52
Hughes: Did you ever consider cyclotron treatment?

Lawrence: No, we did not start that until 1938. Paul and I were right in the midst of those

experiments with neutrons. But the standard radiation therapist even today with a
tumor like that probably would lean towards X-ray. On the Hill we don't treat any
cases like that now either.

NEUTRON THERAPY

Hughes: Could you describe exactly how neutron therapy was conducted in those early

days — what the room looked like, who was responsible for doing what?

Lawrence: Well, that was entirely Dr. Stone.

Hughes: Would he accompany the patients from San Francisco?

Lawrence: Yes, he'd bring the patients over. Some of the treatments would be done when he
wasn't here. But he would pick the patients. He was a standard radiotherapist and
he'd pick patients that were hopeless. Some had received every form of surgery and
every form of radiation. I mean, every form of surgery plus radiation. Some of
them had not been treated at all, but he knew they were a hundred percent fatal like
large head and neck tumors. So he'd pick them out and he'd bring them over and set
up the schedule for dosage based on what we knew about dosage.

Hughes: I read that the 37 inch was only available one day a week for cancer therapy.

Lawrence: Yes, I think that's right but sometimes two days a week. Stone griped about that.

That's the big problem. No one understands just how to handle any of these
radiations, X-rays or anything else — whether you should protract for a month or two
weeks or six weeks. It's a great problem right now in using carbon or neon. I
haven't talked to Joe Castro recently but I will before I go to Europe and then I'll
find out down in Los Alamos how they're using pi meson now. I think it's
anybody's guess over a quite big ball park on just how to use them.

The man who started protraction was a man that I knew, a famous French

53

radiologist by the name of Coutard. There was a man who had cancer in Colorado
Springs by the name of Boise Penrose. Boise Penrose imported Coutard to treat
him. He came over to Colorado Springs; he built a big cancer hospital for him and
it's still running. Coutard was an older man then and he came to the United States
as a private doctor who treated Boise Penrose. Coutard started protraction and that
revolutionized cancer therapy because a lot of people were cured.

Hughes: When was that?

Lawrence: I suppose that was about maybe 1 932. I heard him speak at Yale when I was on the
faculty there in about '35. He was famous then, because everybody was going over
to protraction, spreading radiation out. That's instead of giving it in one big dose or
three big doses.

Hughes: That must have been somewhat of a worry with the 37 inch when the only way you

could do it was in one fairly big dose if you only had access to the cyclotron once a
week.

Lawrence: Sure it was. It must have been a great worry to Stone and he overdosed some
patients, not knowing that he was.

Hughes: There were also problems with the operation of the 60 inch when it first started.

Lawrence: It wasn't reliable.

Hughes: What happened to patient therapy when the cyclotron would break down?

Lawrence: Well, you'd do like they do now if they break down, they transfer them over to
X-ray. On the Hill now, some of the patients receive the first two-thirds of their
treatment with gamma rays or X-rays and then the last third with heavy particles.
This is planned this way. They're being very conservative now. This thing that I've
had so much experience with, these new people have to learn from the ground up
with their own hands. So they're going awfully slow as far as I'm concerned. I'm
waiting for the day when they really get treating each patient with neon or carbon.
They're not even doing that yet. It's too slow.

Hughes:

Can you tell me something about the attitude of people at the Medical School to the

Lawrence:

54

neutron therapy that was going on here?

No, I can't tell you about that because Stone was head of the X-ray department. I
can't imagine them not being very hopeful.

EARLY THERAPEUTIC USE OF ARTIFICIAL RADIOISOTOPES

Hughes: In 1936 Hamilton and Stone administered radiosodium to three patients and they

noted that there was no change in the blood picture after administration of
radiosodium. Soon after they studied sodium absorption in normal patients. I have
several questions. First of all, do you know anything about how the decision was
made to use radiosodium on patients.

Lawrence: I think that Dr. Stone was going to give whole body radiation to these patients.
Hughes: I know two of them had leukemia.

Lawrence: I remember very well that the dose they gave was so small that it couldn't possibly
help the leukemia. But it was justified in the sense that Stone was an able
radiotherapist. He had done no experimental work in a laboratory with the
radioactive isotopes but it was quite justified. But as I pointed out later, the isotope
that should have been used— which I started using as soon as I could get ready for
it — was P-32 which is still being used all over the world. It didn't make scientific
sense because in the treatment of leukemia for whole body radiation you have to
give something like ten to twenty reds or more per day up to, say, a hundred or two
hundred reds. Sometimes you give much more.

The obvious isotope to use was the one that I had been doing a lot of work
with on animals. I think on Christmas Eve of '37 I gave radioactive phosphorus to
the first patient at the hospital in San Francisco. That made more scientific, sense
because on the basis of our animal experiments that localizes in the bone marrow
and in the leukemic cells and in the leukemic tissues.

Hughes: And the radiosodium does not localize?

Lawrence: The radiosodium is a way of giving whole body radiation; it doesn't localize at all.

55

Your body has got a lot of salt in it. So if you give salt it's distributed uniformly
over your whole body; it just diffuses all over. So it's just like spraying the body
with X-rays. The dose of radiosodium was so low that it wouldn't do anything and
it didn't do anything.

Hughes: Did they realize in advance that the dose was too low to do anything?

Lawrence: They must have. I never did understand why they did it because the dose was so
small. I told Joe, I said it won't do any good, it won't do any harm.

Hughes: I was reading a letter that you had written to Herbert Childs who was preparing the

book about your brother. You were talking about this particular episode. You
called Hamilton and Stone's administration of sodium to these patients a stunt.

Lawrence: Well, it wasn't a stunt. It was not a therapeutic trial and I can't imagine that Dr.

Stone didn't know that. Sodium-24 is just like salt if you taste it. If you give a big
enough dose you can get effects. You could kill an animal if you gave an enormous
dose.

Hughes: Wasn't that a demonstration that used to be rather commonly made in the early

days? I think I've heard stories about your brother having radiosodium cocktails.

Lawrence: No, he never used that. He did say that he could make enormous quantities of

radiosodium as a substitute for radium, as an external source of radiation. He used
the word cocktail as we did in the treatment of patients with thyroid tumors, Grave's
disease and also thyroid cancer. You give them a drink of a good size dose and so
we'd say, "Just give them a cocktail." I used to do that when I gave lectures in the
early days. I remember one time in Columbus at Ohio State there was a doctor in
the audience, a young Ph.D., who got into this field because I gave him a small
cocktail of radioactive iodine and held a counter over his thyroid. He became very
famous as a pioneer in this field, Dr. William G. Myers.

Hughes: Can you tell me more about the decision to administer radiophosphorus?

Lawrence: The decision was based on the fact that leukemia was being treated either by local
X-ray to various parts of the body or by full body irradiation where you put the
patient under an X-ray tube and spray the whole body. That was developed by Dr.

56

Heublein — he was a doctor at Memorial Hospital. I saw the set-up where they
would have the patient lying out and spray the body with ten roentgens a day-
something like that — until they got up to 200 or more roentgens. With all the work
we'd done with normal animals, we found that the uptake of radioactive phosphorus
was concentrated in the bone marrow and, in the case of leukemic animals, in bone
too somewhat. In leukemic animals it would go to the bone marrow in greater
concentration because that's where the leukemia cells were. Then it would go into
the spleen and liver if they were infiltrated. So you had a partially selective way of
radiation. It's a pretty simple story and it's based on what I've already said. You get
some selective localization but it's not enough to limit the radiation just to the
leukemic cells. You save a lot of the body from radiation. It prolongs life and it's
used many places in the treatment of leukemia but no one's got the answer to
leukemia. They've been getting fairly good results now for the last ten years with
methyl trexate in acute lymphoblastic leukemia in children. Some of them live
quite a long time. Leukemia is still a mystery and that's about the story.

I was just talking to Dr. Howard C. Mel about a friend of his who has
polycythemia whom he wants me to see. I don't see patients very often now. P-32
is a great success with polycythemia. We first started treating that with P-32 in
1 938 and now this is used throughout the world wherever you go and it's in the
textbooks. It's a disease of the bone marrow and you can inhibit the production of
red cells with small doses of P-32 and sometimes it'll stay inhibited for the rest of
the patient's life. I remember a man that died — just recently. I think I gave him one
dose about thirty years ago and he died at the age of 87. He had classic
polycythemia. He was sent here from the Mayo Clinic by a friend of mine there,
Dr. Byron Hall.

Hughes: I've read that for many years clinicians remained skeptical about the use of P-32 for

the treatment of leukemia.

Lawrence: Yes, it's something like the skepticism that we face now about atomic reactors. It
wasn't as bad I guess in those early days. But nobody had a way of treating
polycythemia or leukemia that was successful. Then a young doctor who's worked
with me for many years, Dr. Saul Winchell, and I wrote a paper on all of our
experience on polycythemia and showed that there's no question about it. It extends
life to nearly normal — it's a little better than insulin in diabetes — but it doesn't solve
the problem completely. The skepticism I think is partly due to the fact that you're

57

using radiation.

A study group that's headed by one of my former students, Dr. Wasserman,
who's now about ready to retire, has just completed its study often years of literally
hundreds of cases. P-32 is the treatment of choice. Everyone on this international
committee agrees with that. I used to go to their meetings.

Hughes: Is that the Polycythemia Vera Study Group?

Lawrence: Yes.

Hughes: When was that group founded?

Lawrence: Oh, about ten years ago.

Hughes: You were warning other M.D.s in 1 945 about the therapeutic use of radioisotopes.

Apparently you believed that the immediate effects of their usage could be
dangerous and nobody knew much in those days about the long-term effects of the
use of radioisotopes in therapy. I was wondering what the basis for this warning
was. Did you have experimental evidence that pointed out the possible dangers of
using radioisotopes therapeutically?

Lawrence: I remember when I went to the First International Radiological Meeting in Chicago
at the Palmer House in 1937 I met many men from all over the world. I gave one of
my first papers there on neutron radiation. Many of them had lost fingers; some had
lost arms. It was very common to see these pioneer men, who at that time were 70,
75 years old, from Sweden and from England and from the United States. They
were very careless in using X-ray. So I was always aware of risks versus benefits. I
was warning people just like I did about working around the cyclotron after I wrote
that first paper with Paul Aebersold. Radiation has hazards we don't know. We
mustn't treat it carelessly.

Before I ever gave a radioactive isotope to anybody I took three trips to
Harrison Martland's laboratory in New Jersey. He was the one that discovered the
radium dial painters. I was convinced that we were dealing with something that was
entirely different.

58

Hughes: Did he have any quantitative data about the possible harmful effects at that stage or

was it still pretty theoretical?

Lawrence: I think the quantitative data is that you can have one rnicrocurie of radium in your
body without harm. There's been a lot more done on that by Gioacchino Failla,
Maranelli and others at the University of Chicago.

At Davis they've got a dog colony now where they've been giving alpha
particle emitters, plutonium and radium, and also strontium which is a beta emitter.
And they're finding that the dogs are living longer and having fewer cancers and
fewer leukemias than the controls. As a matter of fact, I think he told me when I
talked to him recently, that up to a hundred times the so-called allowable dose the
dogs are healthier and live longer and have less leukemia and less cancer. But you
never read about that in the papers.

CROCKER LABORATORY, JOSEPH HAMILTON AND THE
60-INCH CYCLOTRON

Hughes: Could we rum to Crocker Lab? I know it was before you were officially here, but

did you have any part in the planning for Crocker Lab which would have occurred
in 1936? It opened in '37.

Lawrence: I was just enthusiastic about it. It had very little space in it. It was built to house a
cyclotron that could produce adequate quantities of radioactive materials. But the
cyclotron was used for physics all the time too so you had trouble getting time.
That's true of all of these accelerators. Now everybody's after time on the bevalac.

Hughes: Do you know anything about how the scheduling was set up for the use of the 60

inch cyclotron? How was time apportioned amongst the various groups that needed
to use it?

Lawrence: When I was in Los Alamos three weeks ago I gave a lecture on some of the early
work and I pointed out that the average physicist is an average human being and so
he is awfully interested in anything that might help in medicine. So there was no
problem in getting time and I don't think there is now really if they think that the
work you're doing is important. I suppose there was a committee. I don't know how

59

they schedule up on the Hill. I suppose they have a committee now on the
accelerators. The 88 inch isn't being used very much now, I understand, but the rest
of them are — the 1 84 inch and the bevalac.

Hughes: Do you think there was an official schedule in those early days?

Lawrence: Yes, there were schedules on the bulletin board. It was a small laboratory in those
days and just give and take.

Hughes: Did you have space in the Crocker Lab?

Lawrence: Oh, yes. I was for many years in Crocker. After I got the money for Dormer I
moved over here and then Joe Hamilton took over my office in Crocker.

Hughes: Would you tell me something about Joseph Hamilton — what he was like as a person

and a scientist?

Lawrence: He majored in chemistry at Berkeley. When I first came out here he was an interne
in the Medical School. He was a little younger than I. He began using radiosodium
about the same time that I was doing work on neutrons and P-32. He learned a lot
of chemistry himself; he didn't get a Ph.D. in chemistry. He was a very intense
worker and very enthusiastic. During the war he worked on plutonium. He became
an unusually expert person to advise people on the dangers of plutonium and radium
in the bone. Patricia Durbin-Heavey is still carrying that on. He was a very good
looking, intense, hard working fellow who wasn't interested in therapy. He was
interested in tracer research. Finally he got involved with the toxic aspects of the
heavy particles. He, Dr. Tobias, Dr. Jones and I started the Division of Medical
Physics. This man who just came to see me is a professor of medical physics. His
name is Howard Mel. I got him to join the Division. In those days I was after
people who were not trained in medicine but in other fields. Wendell Larimer was a
very good friend of mine and I'd see him at the Faculty Club. One day he called me
about this fellow Mel. He said, "I've got a very bright Ph.D. and he wants to work
with you in the field of medicine and biology." So he sent him over and we got him.
He's been a full professor here several years. That fitted in with the philosophy that
I had and Ernest had in getting people like Tobias and Mel and Jones. You get
plenty of M.D.s but what we wanted was the interdisciplinary approach.

60

Hughes: You wished to place more emphasis on basic research as opposed to clinical

research?

Lawrence: Oh, yes. That's always been my philosophy and it still is. It was always Ernest's
too. Louis Rosen, who's an old-time friend of mine who built the pi meson factory
in Los Alamos, and I talked about the importance of interdisciplinary research. He's
put the last fifteen years of his life into cancer therapy. He's a physicist. He worked
on the atomic bomb during World War II down in Los Alamos. He's been there for
many years. He's just about ready to retire now.

Hughes: Getting back to the early days at Crocker Lab, when you moved into Dormer Lab

did Dr. Hamilton take over the medical health and safety supervision of the staff?

Lawrence: No, we didn't have an M.D. All we had was a monitoring service. We had a group
of physicists monitoring. Everybody wore badges. The general influence around
the Laboratory was that you'd better not exceed the allowable dose of radiation.
That's always been more or less handled by the physicists. That's true of Los
Alamos too.

Now the doctor down there that corresponds to our doctor here is an old
friend of mine. His name is George Voeltz. He's in charge of industrial medicine.
He does physicals on everybody. But the real experts are the physicists who are
monitoring people. They know how much radiation you're allowed to give. If you
get more than that then they check you over pretty carefully and they're ready to
take you out of the laboratory. But it's happened so little.

Hughes: So they would function only if there were an accident?

Lawrence: Right. We had two or three accidents here. I think I told you about the accident
they had down at Los Alamos. Louis Slotin?

Hughes: No.

Lawrence: Well, Robert Oppenheimer came down to see me when I had my first office in

Dormer in the old building. Before they built Los Alamos he wanted me to go down
there and head up the medical program. After an hour's talk I decided that I couldn't
leave here because this is a sort of a fountainhead of nuclear medicine.

61

Hughes:

Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Oppenheimer had been selected as the director of Los Alamos. Los Alamos was the
site of a boys' school and a classmate of mine's father ran the school. His name was
Pond and they call it Ashley Pond. Well, this boy's name is Ashley Pond. It's still
there. I stayed in an inn down there looking right out on Ashley Pond.

Anyway, Oppenheimer wanted me to go there and I said, "Well, there are
two young fellows here that are working with me that have only been here about six
months. They don't know much about radiation but they're the best you can get in
the country. Why don't you talk to them?" One of them was Louis Hempelmann
who's now retiring as a professor at Rochester. He interned at the Brigham
Hospital. He went to Los Alamos and headed up their program. He had a couple of
very serious accidents down there. It wasn't his fault; it was human error. One of
them was Louis Slotin who put in a rod and made a reactor go critical by mistake.
He got maybe 1500 rads of radiation.

George Voeltz had an accident up at Idaho. He was up at Arco and a reactor
blew up there and killed two or three people. But the record otherwise in
laboratories like this and in the commercial use of atomic energy is better than any
other industry, no deaths.

After Dormer Lab opened in 1942 did you maintain your ties with Crocker Lab?
Were you in and out of Crocker Lab or were your activities now in Dormer Lab?

Well, we had periodic meetings. We saw each other around. Everybody had
different interests. I think there are more meetings now than there used to be. But
the philosophy that we had in those days was to give everybody a lot of freedom
and a lot of support and have seminars and hear about what they were doing.

Did the 60 inch cyclotron continue to make radioisotopes for general distribution
during the war?

No, after the reactors were developed, they took over the production of
radioisotopes.

Completely?

Nearly completely. During the last ten years cyclotrons have been growing like

62

weeds all over the world because of the short-lived isotopes — positron emitters-
like iron-52, fluorine-18, oxygen-15 that can be made in cyclotrons.

Hughes: In Herbert Childs' book about your brother, he mentions that your brother before the

war discussed enlarging Crocker Lab to include some hospital space.

Lawrence: Well, I think we'd been talking about a hospital for many years. In later years we
were talking about building a hospital up on the Hill. But I got the money to build
this ten-bed hospital that we have now at Cowell.

Hughes: Do you remember specifically why that idea to add a small hospital to Crocker Lab

was dropped?

Lawrence: I think it was probably financial.

I was telling somebody recently how I got the hospital here, the ten-bed
hospital. I got the money from donations from patients that we had treated. I had
about $250,000 of donations. At one time when I was at Yale I was thinking about
going down to the Rockefeller Institute. What appealed to me about that was that
you could do research there and have patients too in their ten-bed hospital.

THE FOUNDATION OF DONNER LABORATORY

Hughes: Who arranged the original funding for Dormer Laboratory?

Lawrence: We've never had any original University funding. I got the money for the first

laboratory from William H. Dormer, who was in the audience when I gave the first
paper on the biological effects of neutrons. The second laboratory I got from his
daughter-in-law and his son. The Dormer Pavilion, where the patients are, I got
from donations from patients. This scanning Pavilion I got partly from Donner
Foundation and partly from the Atomic Energy Commission and partly from private
donations. But Donner Laboratory itself has never had any budget. I worked for
years to get a University budget for it, but it's never had a budget. So we always had
to get the money by going outside. It has approximately two million dollars
endowment that I raised from private sources. But it's never been funded. Well,
that's true of a lot of institutes and laboratories in the University. Very few of them

63
were funded. You had to go out and get the money.

Hughes: When Dormer Lab opened its doors can you think back to how space was allotted

and how equipment and staff were assembled?

Lawrence: I can't. Those things are just worked out. We had a space committee, I remember
that. We had an instrumentations committee, I remember that. I just turned things
like that over to this committee and it settled a lot of these questions. And if I didn't
agree, which was very rare, why then I could say, "Well, look, I don't agree with
this." I'd rotate the best people in the Laboratory onto the committee and I knew that
what they did would be right.

Hughes: Was the research group system just a natural development or was there an effort to

duplicate what was going on in the Radiation Laboratory?

Lawrence: No, there wasn't copying. This physicist that I saw down in Los Alamos — Dr.
Raju — I picked him up in the halls of the Tata Hospital in Bombay 18 years ago
when my youngest son Steve was six weeks old. He came to me with his thesis
which was on the measurement of the electron. He got his Ph.D. in one of the
universities in India. He looked after me when I was in Los Alamos two weeks ago
and he's one of their leading scientists. I could see he was good and now he's an
outstanding biologist. We picked up people like that.

Hughes: When you pick up a new person like that do they come to the Laboratory with their

own project or do they join a research project that is already on the way?

Lawrence: Oh, that's variable.

Hughes: You're picking the man rather than his research?

Lawrence: Picking the man, oh yes. That's terribly important, Hhink. In some laboratories
they'll have one director and he directs everything and when he's retired then they
don't have anything left. But my philosophy and my brother's philosophy were to
get outstanding people and so we've got a laboratory still going strong because we
picked good people. Some of those people are retiring now too but I'm hoping that
they're still doing that. Yes, it's the people. That's what counts.

64

Hughes: Can you tell me a little bit more about the philosophy behind the multi-disciplinary

approach.

Lawrence: Well, the philosophy there is this: you go to medical school and then have contact

with physics and the natural sciences like I had. I noticed that in medicine there was
no close association with chemistry, physics, mathematics. As a matter of fact the
advisors in college would keep you away from math, physics, and chemistry and get
you to take comparative anatomy and biology. So early my brother and I felt very
strongly that the great future of biology and medicine aside from radioactivity is tied
up with basic science. But medical schools just don't have it yet. They have great
heart surgeons and great clinicians and I think in our Medical School, the University
of California, San Francisco, which is one of the best in the country, they have lots
of basic scientists too.

They said, "Well, isn't it too bad you didn't have a hospital here?" I said,
"No, I think it's too bad that the hospital doesn't have us over there." But you can't
do that.

That means that you'd have to have Dormer and the Lab on the Hill and this
campus over there. And that's the reason that I told Chancellor Albert H.
Bowker — and he agrees — that we ought to have a medical school right over here.

Hughes: A medical school but not a hospital?

Lawrence: No, you don't need a hospital. There are plenty of beds around here.

Hughes: How do you think this multidisciplinary business has worked?

Lawrence: Well, I think it has in this laboratory. If you talk to a fellow like Tom Budinger, if
you want to see the best example of it, you ought to see his team. They're
physicists, chemists, mathematicians and Budinger himself is a little bit of each.
He's an M.D. but he also knows quite a lot of math, lots of physics, and some
chemistry. Oh, I think it's worked. He has an endowed Professorship with money
which I raised privately.

Hughes: After you moved into Dormer Lab how much did you see your brother? Did that cut

down on the amount of contact you were having with him?

65

Lawrence: I suppose a little bit because then there was a cyclotron in Crocker. Yes, I think it
cut down some. But I used to see him quite a lot but he was so busy and I was so
busy and we were sort of in different.... He was very intensely involved in biology
and medicine. I had so many associations with my own group plus whenever I
needed help from the physicists I had a lot of other physicists that were with him
that I could see. Mostly because we were both so busy.

Hughes: When you were both in the same building though, in the Old Radiation Lab, did you

see him more often?

Lawrence: In the Old Radiation Laboratory, he was never in that building. He kept his office
over in the Physics Department.

Hughes: So even then you didn't see him all that often.

Lawrence: Oh, no. I was talking to a fellow in Las Vegas yesterday who is doing work like
we're doing here on the pituitary gland. I attended a meeting on the pituitary gland
because we have treated, oh for twenty-five years now, patients with pituitary
rumors. We presented that material yesterday. This fellow in Boston is a
neurosurgeon, but he's picked up our technique of treating the pituitary gland with
heavy particles, first from the 1 84 inch cyclotron and now from the bevalac. At first
he came out here and worked with us and we had our own physicist on that team.
When he got back to Cambridge and the Massachusetts General Hospital, then he
worked with a man who was chairman of the department of physics, Bill Preston.
But that only lasted a short time until he got his team worked up and then it became
sort of routine.

Hughes:

There was no reason that I should bother Ernest with a lot of the things that
we were doing. Although we'd get together socially and dinners and parties and so
forth and sometimes on vacations with his wife and my wife and so forth. He kept
up on what I was doing and I kept up on what he was doing. As a matter of fact I've
mentioned before that for a long time I knew exactly what he was doing from letters
that he wrote to me before I came here. I still was pretty well aware of what was
going on on the Hill, too. Actually, they hadn't moved to the Hill yet, you see.

That was after the war, wasn't it?

66

Lawrence: Yes, that was after the war.

Hughes: But all through his life here he maintained an interest in biology and medicine

through the biological application of radiations and radioisotopes?

Lawrence: Oh, sure, just like all the physicists.

Ernest at one time was going to become a doctor when he was in college the
first couple of years but he got involved with Dean Akeley who was a great
physicist, a great teacher, and he found out that physics really was what he was
fitted for. Oh, sure, he always had a tremendous pride in anything that came out of
physics or anything that came out of his group that would help in biology and
medicine.

Hughes: When you did talk with him about what you were doing in the Lab did he ever say,

well now why don't you try thus and so, or make suggestions of some kind?

Lawrence: I can't remember. I mean any scientist who is open is always talking to people and
exchanging ideas. I can't remember anything specific.

Hughes: So he wasn't popping into Dormer Lab?

Lawrence: He didn't have time. He was so deeply involved then with the building of the first
atom bomb. By the time we got over here (Dormer Lab) he was just terribly busy.
He, like Edward Teller, Arthur Compton and Vannevar Bush, was just swamped
during the war and right away didn't have time for anything else.

THE AEROMEDICAL UNIT AT DONNER LABORATORY

Hughes: The war work is what I think I'd like to talk about now. I was wondering first of all

how the Dormer Lab was chosen as the site of the Aeromedical Unit?

Lawrence: Well, there was a man that I knew that was head of the research program of the Air
Force. He was a doctor whose name is W. Randy Lovelace. He knew that we had
begun working with inert gases like argon, krypton, neon, nitrogen.

67

Hughes: Xenon?

Lawrence: I don't have a periodic table here, but anyway all these inert gases are in that one
group in the periodic table and he knew we were working with those. At that time
we didn't have pressure cabin aircraft so he wanted us to see what we could learn
about the problem of high altitude bends. Without pressure cabin aircraft if you fly
above twenty thousand feet, I think eighteen thousand is the maximum that you
could fly, it would mean breathing a hundred percent oxygen at twenty — I've
forgotten those figures now.

Hughes: Oh, we can check that.

Lawrence: Anyway I did a lot of flying at high altitudes with oxygen myself. Anyway we had
radioactive gases. We were the first to use them and we were studying the
circulation. Dr. Hamilton, the best chemist in our group, was always looking at the
periodic table and new radioisotopes and pointed out the rare noble gases; Dr. Jones,
Dr. Tobias and then many others joined in. As a matter of fact Dr. Tobias and a
couple of other younger fellows and I did some experiments with ordinary xenon
and found out that it was an anaesthetic.

I just wrote a letter to a Russian physicist that I hope to visit sometime this
year in Dubna, that's one of the centers of physics in Russia. We wrote a paper on
this, with two or three other fellows including Tobias and Jones, showing that you
could use xenon as an anesthetic. At the same time, practically in the same issue of
Nature, a Russian came out with the same results.

Anyway the bases that we were using were radioactive so you could follow
them in the body. The problem was how to prevent the bends. If a flyer is flying at,
say, an altitude above eighteen thousand feet he's liable to get what we call the
chokes or the bends which are very painful; I've had.them. It's due to bubbles of
inert gases, nitrogen. See, the average person like you or me — I guess I have more
than you do because I'm bigger than you are — at sea level has about 1 ,000 c.c. of
nitrogen in his body. It's relatively inert; not exactly inert. It's chemically not
completely inert. If you go to altitude or if you go down in the depths to say, thirty
feet below the sea level that's two atmospheres. Every thirty feet you gain an
atmosphere and that's the reason these scuba divers — two of my boys do that — if

68

they go down and stay there too long and come up too fast they'll get the bends,
because the body saturates itself proportional to the atmospheric pressure. The situ
ation in the case of people living at sea level and going to altitude is the same thing.
If you go from, say, sea level to eighteen thousand feet, that's half an atmosphere,
so that nitrogen has to get out of your body and if it goes too fast it'll bubble out and
it'll get into your circulation, your heart, your lungs, or into your tendons and
ligaments or joints. And it can kill you. So we developed a method. We finally got
a plane assigned to us by Dr. Lovelace and we did a lot of high altitude flying. We
classified people with the aid of radioactive gases as to those who could go to nigh
altitude without the bends and those who couldn't go without the bends. That's
about the story.

We did a lot of other things and I don't think it's important enough to spend
much time on them. We were very busy for a period of at least three years on that
and did many things with the products of atomic energy that were useful to the Air
Force.

Hughes: How had you gotten interested in radioactive gases to begin with?

Lawrence: Well, I think that Joe Hamilton and Hardin Jones and I all talked about these gases.
There were some very interesting isotopes that were positron emitters and they were
very easy to measure and they were short-lived and they were very safe to use. We
were looking at the whole periodic table. But Jones particularly showed — and I
think it's piece of pioneering work — that the aging process and the rate of
circulation are parallel. In other words a little baby when he sleeps at night can be
without covers and he's warm. As you get older and you start aging that's a function
of the circulation. You can measure the circulation very nicely with these
radioactive inert gases. Although later a simpler method came out, which again Dr.
Jones developed, measuring the recovery of the production of C02 after a standard
step up exercise. We were looking at the whole periodic table and inert gases were
obviously interesting to work with largely because they were short-li ved and they
were positron emitters. But that's such a long story. We did a lot of work in other
areas of high altitude flight.

As I told you before Robert Oppenheimer wanted me to go to Los Alamos
to head up the medical program there and I was not interested in the first place of
spending my life in simple radiation protection. That's the reason I sent one of my

69

younger associates down there. I think I mentioned that to you before. That was
Louis Hempelmann. He spent his life on radiation protection problems. Being a
different type of person, interested in the positive applications of the products of
atomic energy, I needed to stay here as a general medical influence in this whole
program in connection with the very important war work of Ernest and the other
people.

The second thing, I wanted to get involved — all of us did in some way — in
war work that was not physics but that we were competent in. It came from the
pressure from Lovelace who knew what we were doing in this Laboratory. I trained
one of his people here for the war to go back to his clinic, the Lovelace Clinic in
Albuquerque, New Mexico. So it was largely my contact with him that resulted in
this. We did some very exciting things in several areas, instrumentation and
selection. By the end of the war, the B-29s were available. They were pressurized.
They were used in dropping the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

hi the case of the B-29s it's interesting that a lot of those planes would come
back in the fog, out of gas, and a lot of them crashed until Luis Alvarez shortly
before the end of the war thought of something: he's famous for thinking of things,
Luis Alvarez is. I see him quite often now. He was one of the fellows that I used to
talk with too. He gave out some ideas. He had a little more time than Ernest did.
He thought of this thing called ground control approach where you talk an airplane
in. Well, it isn't used very much by these pilots, like the 747 pilots that I flew in
coming back from Paris or even on the Concorde which I flew over on, because they
don't trust anybody but themselves. A lot of bomber pilots were saved coming back
to, I guess it was, Iwo Jima where they landed after the bombings. This is not the
atom bomb; this is just ordinary bombs when they were bombing Tokyo. They
were talked down and saved. He got the Collier trophy for that and it was just an
idea. He talked the first plane down at Andrews Air Force base in Washington just
by having the man on the ground look at the radar screen and talk to the pilots say,
"Come on a little lower down. Come this way."

Hughes: Did it become a fairly common practice for the rest of the war?

Lawrence: The equipment is all over the world. It's not used very much except in emergencies.
Usually they have the ILA and other means of taking the planes in now.

Hughes:

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I meant specifically for the remainder of the war.

Lawrence: Oh, I don't know. This is the only example I know of.

Hughes: Do you remember anything else that you and Luis Alvarez talked about

specifically?

Lawrence: I can't remember anything specifically, no.

Hughes: You mentioned Tobias and Hardin Jones. Was there anybody else working with

you during that war period?

Lawrence: Oh, a lot of people. We have a lot of publications that were published. Some of
them were secret during the war and some of them were then published later as
declassified and open. They're in the reprint file.

Hughes: Did you hire people specifically to work on the war projects?

Lawrence: Oh, yes. We had a contract with the Air Force and the National Defense Research
Council.

Hughes: Did they hire people with your approval?

Lawrence: No, we'd hire them. It's just like you do now. If you have a research grant or if you
have a budget, if you need someone, why, you get them.

Hughes: There was a problem, though, during the war of just sheer manpower, was there

not? So many physicists, for example, were already absorbed into projects in other
parts of the country.

Lawrence: We had one physicist who was very important, William Siri. This was important

work too and of course the physicists were doing all right in the various laboratories.
Tobias was a physicist and we had others too.

Hughes: Did you have to fight to keep people, do you remember?

Lawrence: No.

71

Hughes: I've read about a low pressure chamber.

Lawrence: I think that was the first one in University Lab. That's in this building yet.

I just met a fellow in the hall, one of the brilliant young fellows that I really worked
with in the early days. He's still young yet. That's Donald Van Dyke. I just talked
to him as I came in. He left here because he got a bigger salary. It was a great loss
to the Laboratory; he did a lot of brilliant things. He did an awful' lot of work in the
low pressure chamber. I did a lot of work in it too during the war and afterwards
because you could simulate high altitude flights. He did a lot of the work on
experimental animals.

Then after the war we made three expeditions to the Andes and did a lot of
studies on the nature of acclimatization in high altitude. These were medical and
physiological and biological studies. Again we'd use isotopes. I remember on one
trip I took to Peru we were the first to use tritium, tritiated water, and I had to sleep
on it because it was classified material. In order to take it out of the country I had to
guarantee that I'd have it on my person or sleep on it. So I had a small bottle of
tritium in my bedroom wherever I was when I was on this one trip to Peru because it
became a very simple way of measuring body water. Will Siri was the key man on
that. We'd just take a drink of tritiated water and then fifteen minutes later take a
blood sample, count the sample and you'd get the blood volume. It's the dilution.

Hughes: Did the war work, then determine to a certain extent the sort of research that you

were doing after the war?

Lawrence: No. It was just a continuation of the applications of isotopes, although we had to

become more practical when several things we did didn't involve isotopes. We were
all interested in doing things that would help in the prosecution of the war. If we
could use isotopes, why fine. That has been the story of this Laboratory ever since;
we don't tie ourselves to radiation or isotopes.

Hughes: Did people have to have a security clearance to work at Dormer Lab during the war?

Lawrence: Yes, they had to have a clearance. That was no problem. I don't remember anybody
that we wanted that wasn't cleared.

72

Hughes: What about Tobias as an alien?

Lawrence: No different than Teller. Teller was an alien too. Teller is a Hungarian and Tobias
is a Hungarian and Fermi was an Italian. We benefitted greatly by these aliens, who
are extremely important American scientists and citizens.

Hughes: Yes, I would say so.

Lawrence: That clearance business was never any problem. I don't know of anybody that
wasn't cleared.

Hughes: How long was clearance required?

Lawrence: Oh, I don't know. You'd have to get that from elsewhere.

Hughes: How much of the research that you were doing during the war was eventually

published?

Lawrence: I think most of it.

Hughes: You couldn't publish during the war, could you? Did you have to wait?

Lawrence: No, we waited until after the war. We just didn't have time to publish. Like the

xenon work, I think that came out in about '44. That was ordinary inert xenon, not
radioactive xenon which was an anesthetic.

As a matter of fact there's a principle called the fat water solubility ratio.
Any anesthetic has a high solubility in fat compared to water. You take ether and all
of these anesthetics that they're using now. Xenon has a very high solubility in fat
over water and radon does too. But of course you couldn't use radon because of the
radiation. Then another one is oxygen. If you have enough oxygen in your body,
that's an anesthetic too. For instance, if you go down very deep you can get oxygen
narcosis because of the tremendous amount of oxygen in your body. There's more
oxygen than there is nitrogen.

Hughes:

I've read that investigators with OSRD (Office of Scientific Research and

Donner Laboratory senior scientific staff, 1962. From the left: Dr.

James Born, Assistant Director; Dr. John Gofman, Professor of Medical

Physics; Dr. Hardin B. Jones, Assistant Director and Professor of

Medical Physics; Dr. John H. Lawrence, Director; and Dr. C.A. Tobias,
Professor of Medical Physics.

Photo by LRL Graphic Arts.

73

Development) contracts sometimes had trouble getting the supplies they needed
because the requirements for the physics work were given higher priority. Did you
ever run into problems of that kind?

Lawrence: We never had that problem. The Laboratory, Dormer and on the Hill, had a special
way of getting away from red tape. Red tape now is pretty bad in the University.
Up until quite recently we did get things through very fast. Most of that is just delay
at the level of the University offices.

Hughes: But you could circumvent the University?

Lawrence: We had our own system of order. We didn't have to go through the University. It's
too bad what's happened to the University now because it's become so bureaucratic.
I see it as a Regent. It's slowed things down. It's mostly paper work and delay
because you have to go from this to that and committee to committee and all that.
There was a war on.

POSTWAR DONNER LABORATORY

Hughes: I have heard that before the war cyclotron time was pretty much determined by the

project's intrinsic value. After the war it became much more how much money that
particular group had put into the support of the cyclotron.

Lawrence: Oh sure, well you have to do that. But the amount of money that was put in had to
be on important work. In other words, if I had an important project and you had an
important project, somebody had to pay for the cyclotron. You can't weigh the
importance of these various projects. It's not money. It's money in the sense you
have to have money to run it. I mean, you've got to pay the bills, like you have to
pay your bills at home. We're not living in an ideal world where you don't have to
worry about money like you do in Russia where youhave a Politburo that decides.

Hughes: Right after the war it seems to me as an outsider that there was a sudden influx of

new people into the Lab. I was wondering what caused that?

Lawrence: What happened there was that fortunately we were really the first place, and I'm
talking about biology and medicine, that was in that field of radiation and

74

radioisotopes. So I would get letters and calls from young men and women, mostly
men in those days, that wanted to come and work here. Or if I'd go to a medical
meeting, someone would single me out and say, "I'd like to come to your
Laboratory." So nearly all of our outstanding people came on their own here. We
didn't advertise for them

Hughes: That sudden influx after the war, did that have something to do with the fact that

atomic energy was now in the forefront of people's minds because of the work on
the bomb and that kind of thing?

Lawrence: Well, after the war of course a lot of the people that were at Los Alamos and Oak
Ridge and up at Hanford stayed there, and a lot of them went into peacetime
applications of atomic energy.

Hughes: Were you involved in any of the postwar planning for biology and medicine on a

national level?

Lawrence: I tried to stay away from national committees although I naturally was on a lot of
them. Not a lot of them but... I was, for instance associate director of LBL for
biology and medicine. That was a national program which included LBL and
Dormer. Then during the war there was Brookhaven and Argonne and Los Alamos.
Then after the war was Chicago. We'd meet every three months and we'd get
papers from each laboratory and keep up there. Then I was on several committees,
only one at a time, for fifteen years at the National Institutes of Health in the field of
medical physics and medical research.

Hughes: What basically were you doing on the NIH committees?

Lawrence: Mostly going over applications for funds, whereas in the AEC committees we were
just reviewing our programs. The people who would go over our programs would
be the people in Washington. This is an inner circleof national laboratories
supported by the AEC. Right after the war the AEC took over our work in biology
and medicine.

Hughes: I was wondering what sort of impact becoming an AEC lab made on Dormer Lab?

Lawrence: Marvelous. We had plenty of funds and we didn't have to worry getting them. We

75

had simply outstanding people that headed biology and medicine. That same thing
was true of physics and chemistry. We had Shields Warren who was one of my
professors in medical school. He headed the biology and medicine. Then finally
Charlie Dunham who was a classmate of mine. These fellows were just outstanding
people. They'd give you a lot of support, a lot of freedom. We didn't have the
bureaucracy in those days that we have now in so many fields.

Hughes: Were you left free to choose the direction of your research?

Lawrence: Oh, we were given terrific freedom. We tried to do things that were important to the
AEC in the field of radiation, on radiation protection and radiation dangers. We
tried to do things where we could use isotopes but we wouldn't force ourselves to do
that if we had some important problem like Gofrnan's work or... There are many
other examples too.

Hughes: You were a member of the Task Force which conducted tests on people that had

been exposed at the Bikini atom bomb tests.

Lawrence: Yes, that was '46 or '47.

Hughes: Yes, that was '46 I believe. Is the Atomic Bomb Commission the same thing as the

Task Force?

Lawrence: No, the Task Force was the force that exploded the bomb. The Task Force was

headed by an admiral in the Navy. Then they invited a group of scientists out there
and I was one of them. They put me in charge of a gunboat. I was the commander
of the gunboat. We were cruising around the bay when they shot this bomb off
from underneath the water.

Hughes: What were you supposed to be doing on the gunboat?

Lawrence: Oh, we were supposed to be taking samples of water. Ken Scott was on that boat
too. Ken was one of the key men as far as the technique of taking samples. Then
the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission was formed after that to study the effects
of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs on the people. Those bombs were dropped
in August of '45, wasn't it?

76
Hughes: Yes.

Lawrence: That's 35 years ago. So they've got follow-up now for 35 years. They've got pretty
good ideas about the dose from the epicenter at both of these cities. Recently
they've made a study on these people and so far there's no evidence of any genetic
effect in any of the survivors. But there is evidence of an increased incidence of
leukemia and cancer. But it has to get up to a pretty good sized dose. I think it has
to get up to somewhere between 10 and 20 R. See, this is where the bomb is, they
measure the dose. And then, of course, neutrons come in too, so it's a complex
thing. But at really low doses they don't have much evidence that it has done any
harm.

Hughes: What was your particular role with the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission?

Lawrence: I didn't have any role in that. I've always been more active in the use of isotopes and
radiations in diagnosis and research and therapy. I've been interested in the low-
level effects of radiation and did the first work here on that, but I never spent my life
on the genetic effects of radiation like some of these people have. Bill Russell has
spent the good part of his life on the genetic effects of radiation. I had too many
other things I was interested in and I knew that there were a lot of people working
on this. I wasn't officially involved in that.

Hughes: Were there people in the Lab connected with that work?

Lawrence: Well, that was handled by the AEC. They had their own group following that. I
used to see those fellows and I heard one of the fellows talk last week on it up in
Montreal, as a matter of fact. It's now run by a group in the HEW.

Hughes: Still following the same survivors?

Lawrence: Oh yes, still following those people. Oh, they'll be followed probably for the next
50 years.

77
ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES

Hughes: I noticed on your curriculum vitae, Dr. Lawrence, that you officially became

director of Dormer Lab in 1948. I was wondering what that signified because you'd
been essentially director of Dormer Lab since the Lab was set up.

Lawrence: I was actually head of the Laboratory from the very beginning. I just got a letter that
the University would like to have me officially appointed as director of the Dormer
Laboratory. Dean Alva R. Davis was a very good friend of mine and a very
important man at the University. Over at the Faculty Club one day he said, "John,
I'm going to recommend to the President that you be appointed director, formally, of
Dormer Laboratory. You are in fact." 'Sailor' Davis was very famous. That's his
nickname. He was one of the most powerful men on campus and also a leader in his
field.

R. E. Davis was another man that was a friend of mine. He was a man who
was famous for making this cement that they use to build these big dams, like the
Boulder Dam. Davis Hall over here is named after him. He died at about the age of
90.

'Sailor' Davis was Professor of Biology. So that's when I heard about it and
I got a letter from the President officially appointing me Director.

Hughes: At the same time Hardin Jones became Assistant Director.

Lawrence: No, that was later. 1 wrote to the President recommending Hardin Jones to be
Assistant Director.

Hughes: And what about James Bom?

Lawrence: Then later on, to relieve Hardin Jones from administrative duties, I wrote the

President recommending the appointment of James Bom, and he appointed him.

Hughes: So Born was handling all the administrative matters.

Lawrence: Yes, he was primarily a very good administrator, whereas Hardin Jones was a
scientist.

78

Hughes: Was he handling the scientific issues then?

Lawrence: He was doing a lot of the scientific research himself and advising others with me,

whereas Bom is primarily not a scientist. He's a terribly able personality in a doctor,
but not a scientist. So he handled all the administrative things.

Hughes: Could you say something about your philosophy as Director of the Laboratory?

Lawrence: I've written that up in that article.
Hughes: You don't have anything to add?

Lawrence: No, the only way to have a laboratory like my brother and I had is to give

independence. Get good people, then give them independence. This business of
directing a laboratory in a certain direction is a very dangerous thing and I think it is
happening more now. It certainly happened at NASA because they had a certain job
to do and that was entirely directed; they had relatively no freedom. I think that's
happened somewhat with the DOE now too in their relationship with the Laboratory
on the Hill. (Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory) So the atmosphere has changed
somewhat. But in a real research laboratory in a university and even in a company,
you've got to give your scientists freedom because you don't know where they're
going to run onto something very important even though it may not be practical. It's
the idea that useless research very often comes up with something that's useful.

Hughes: How did you keep in touch? Did you pop into the lab or were there seminars where

the different groups...?

Lawrence: Oh, we had seminars.

Hughes: Did you make a practice of going around to the different labs?

Lawrence: Oh, sure. I knew how everything was going.

Hughes: As this whole operation was expanding just after the war and through the '50s, did

you find that you as a director had to do things differently just because more and
more people were involved?

79

Lawrence: No. I should give you an article that I wrote. I ran onto it yesterday. It's about that
subject. A director, in my mind, in my brother's mind, has to get outstanding people
and support them, do all you can to support them. Also, at the same time, try to do
something yourself too. But you have a responsibility, when you're getting the kind
of funding that we were getting, to get top people. There's no problem there if you
have an Anger or if you have a Calvin or Budinger or Tobias or Tom Hayes, who's
one of the great electron microscopists in the country, and half a dozen others. Joe
Garcia, who's been with me for 25 years, developed a new assay for erythropoietin,
which can open up a whole new field of medicine. I've always helped him. But I've
done enough things for myself so that not only do I get credit for my own things,
but I get credit for these guys, too, and I'm not on their papers. People say, "Oh yes,
he came from the Dormer Laboratory, didn't he?"

So my philosophy and my brother's philosophy too... Look at the people he
got. Look at Alvarez, Segre, Seaborg, and McMillan. I talked to McMillan
yesterday, by the way. Ernest used to tell me, "You know, Alvarez is so much
brighter than I am." Well, I don't know that that's true or not, but he wasn't joking
when he said that.

The other kind of director has got to have his finger on everything, and is
worried about somebody doing something that's terribly important. Well, I'm not
worried about that at all. That's what I want.

Hughes: Yet you did have assistant directors, Hardin Jones...

Lawrence: And Jim Bom.

Hughes: What was the division of labor there?

Lawrence: Well, Hardin Jones was more or less the scientific director, and Jim Born was sort
of a business manager. We had a committee that decided on funding. I'd hardly
ever attend the meetings — how we'd split the money up that we had.

Hughes: What would Hardin Jones' functions have been?

Lawrence: Well, he was primarily a research man and really did a lot of teaching and a lot of

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Hughes:

research rather than administration. But he did quite a lot of advising on it, getting
new people and things like that.

Would he have had direct contact with the different research groups if they wanted
to change the direction of their research? Would they have had to consult with Dr.
Jones?

Lawrence: No, they'd do that more or less by themselves. If you have good men, why...

When the AEC got into the picture supporting us, due to my contacts in
Washington, we figured that 80 percent of our work should be of interest to the
AEC. That is, you use isotopes and radiations and study problems that the AEC is
interested in. But you've got to give us freedom for 20 percent of it to be unrelated
(to AEC interests), and Gorman's work is a perfect example because for years he
never used an isotope. I said, "You can't have outstanding people and restrict their
research because you don't know where the path is going to lead. It might go this
direction or that direction or this direction. If you tie them down to one technique,
to one isotope...

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:
Hughes:
Lawrence:

That was acceptable to the AEC?

Oh yes, that always was. Now it's not so easy because the boys that are running the
Laboratory now tell me that DOE is demanding a lot more than the AEC ever did.
There was much more freedom then.

Was that 80 percent, 20 percent something that you...
That's what I figured.
...hit upon?

If you look over our reports, about 80 percent of them are obviously of interest to
the AEC, like low-level radiation and big doses of radiation or the use of radiation
therapy or in diagnosis or research. But you got to give some freedom so a fellow
like Gofrnan can develop. Or a fellow like Hayes.

We were the first laboratory on this campus that had an electron microscope.

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Well, I said, "Look, if you're studying function, like what a cell does, you've got to
relate your function to the cell. And our methods of viewing cells here are not very
good. The electron microscope has improved that so we know more about the
morphology of the cell, because we're studying function of cells and organs." So we
became a leader on this campus in electron microscopy and still are. Tom Hayes
has gotten prizes for it now. I encouraged him, you see.

Hughes: In 1959 you became an associate director of Lawrence Berkeley Lab.

Lawrence: That was due to Ed McMillan. He became director of the Lawrence Berkeley
Laboratory after Ernest, my brother, died. Then he appointed me an associate
director himself. I think that's who did it. That was a natural thing to do.

Hughes: What are the duties of associate directors?

Lawrence: Well, the duties of the Director of Dormer and the Associate Director of LBL in

biology and medicine are obviously one in the same. We have always had a lot of
our activities up on the Hill. We built an animal house up there many years ago.
Now our clinic is in that animal house. Then we later built a very large research
laboratory where I used to work, which is over on the other side of the Hill, over
near the Botanical Museum.

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Our whole biology and medicine program of the Lawrence Berkeley
Laboratory used to be 90 percent in Dormer. But now it's grown so much that I'd
say maybe it's only 60 percent in Donner and then a lot of it's spread on the Hill.
We've got our clinic up there now. I saw a patient there this morning. Then we've
got Melvin Calvin's laboratory on the campus and he's also got a laboratory that's on
the Hill too, a couple of laboratories up there. So he's spread between the
Laboratory of Chemical Biodynamics and the laboratory on the Hill. That's all part
of one large program. The whole idea of the Donner Laboratory, as I've told you
before, is to get interdisciplinary research going, with close contact with the
Radiation Laboratory. So that's the whole story with that. That's what we've done
and it's still going on.

I understand in the early '60s Strauss asked you to become an AEC commissioner.
Yes. Lewis Strauss was a very outstanding man who died just recently. I saw him

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for the last time about three years ago. He was chairman of the Atomic Energy
Commission. He kept working on me for about six months to become a
commissioner of the Atomic Energy Commission. This was over twenty years ago.
I got to know him through the Commission and through his visits here. He wanted
someone who knew the medical aspects of atomic energy. I just couldn't leave the
Lab. Then they got Seaborg later, I think a year or two later. It just didn't appeal to
me. That kind of a job doesn't feel right — if I were to be a college president or a
dean. The same way with my brother. They wanted him to be president of this
university. They worked on him for a long time. He was offered presidencies of
other universities and I was offered deanships. That kind of thing doesn't appeal to
me. You're at luncheons and dinners and receiving lines and that's no fun. A little
bit of that's okay. But if you're director and at the same time have time to do
research, well; that's fun.

Lewis Strauss really worked on me. He was just waiting for me to give the
okay and then I'd get a letter from President Eisenhower. He said, "All you've got to
do is say 'yes' and you'll have a letter from the President appointing you
commissioner." I'm sure glad I didn't do it. I mean it would have ruined me. I'd
probably have been doing it for three years and I'd have lost out contact with
research and teaching here. Then I'd have had to do something else in an
administrative way. I've never regretted that.

Oh, what helped me decide, by the way, you'd be interested in that: I talked
it over with a lot of people, including the Chairman of the Board of Regents, who at
that time was John Francis Neylan, a great Regent and dedicated to the University.
He urged me to take it. I said, "Well, why? I've got a great research program going
here and that's all I'm interested in really. I don't want to be on a committee." Being
on the Regents is bad enough. That's because I got older and I thought that it would
be better to get out of the Laboratory and I could do the Regents' work. But he said,
"Well, you know John, if you do that you'll become internationally known." I said,
"Jack," (I knew him very well), "I don't want to become internationally known on
that account. Whatever I get known for I want it to be on the basis of what I do in
research and in teaching and in directing this Laboratory." So I turned it down right
then. There are different kinds of people. I would have become very well-known in
some ways, but I don't care about being known because I'm a member of the Atomic
Energy Commission. There are other people that can do it better anyway. I think.

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For instance, I was surprised when Glenn Seaborg did it. I think it's too bad
that he did it, because he's a good scientist and it took him away from research.
When Ken Pitzer became President of Rice, then he became President of Stanford, I
told Ken, "That's the greatest mistake you ever made." When he went to Rice I said,
"You're probably the leading theoretical physical chemist in the United States, if not
in the world. You're a young man yet and that's a mistake." I see him now once in a
while, but we never talk about it, but I believe now he probably would agree with
me because he just wasn't fitted for that.

Hughes: Do you think it's hard for a man to get back into research once his term of office is

up?

Lawrence: Yes, I think it is. There's a very great asset to being a university professor. I think
it's very hard to get back after you've been away for more than a year.

Hughes: Well, another issue is that of Dormer Lab itself and your efforts to keep it here on

campus rather than have it moved up to the Hill. I was wondering what your
reasons are for wishing it to remain on campus.

Lawrence: Oh, it's just like Calvin's laboratory. He got funds just like I did-to build a

laboratory on the campus. So I feel very strongly, and I felt very strongly, that to
have a laboratory on the campus close to the students was better than having it in
San Francisco or up on the Hill. So I objected to building it on the Hill, then using
money that the Regents came up with to replace the first part of this building, and
turn it over to the Division of Medical Physics, which I really started, because I
wanted to keep the Division of Medical Physics down here. But I didn't want to
lose and separate the laboratory by moving more and more of it to the Hill. That's
all. It's just one opinion, and I think I was right. But there are lots of factors.

At one time years ago, we were thinking of doing that very same thing.
Then we were going to build a hospital up there, when we talked about the
omnitron. Then we were thinking about moving the whole operation up there. But
since then I've changed my mind and so I was against it. But I think it will work out
all right. We'll still have this main laboratory here left. Part of it will be used for
teaching and we have used part of the space for that. I have already seen the great
opportunities for an Academic Division — which we started here and I was the first
chairman. And it now continues to be a good Division, and benefits greatly from

84
being in the laboratory and from its associations with LBL.

Hughes: What are the arguments for having it on the Hill?

Lawrence: Oh, just a matter of more space for teaching down here. The Regents first voted to
build it here with this money that we got from our Regents' fund which is overhead
from our various contracts. We were going to extend it out this way (points towards
Founders' Rock), and I had planned that for years. But the architects didn't like the
idea of the expense and also getting too close to Founders' Rock. Also they didn't
like to put it out this way close to Hearst Mining Building. So they just felt that
there was no space close to here that was appropriate. Since we have a lot of our
program up on the Hill anyway, why not just move some more of it up there?

Hughes: Do you think because now the academic department and the research department of

biophysics on this campus are going to be physically separated that there will be less
cooperation?

Lawrence: Well, there's a danger of that. I made a very strong speech on this before the

Regents. I could give you a copy of that. Whether this can be remedied or not, I
don't know.

The Division of Medical Physics grew out of our research program at
Dormer Laboratory. The men that are on the staff now, and have been on the staff,
have their salaries paid three-fifths by the Lab and two-fifths by the University. We
never had a budget. We've got a budget in medical physics now, but it's not big.
The Department will lose contact with all our shops on the Hill and our shops here
and so forth. We may have to move our library to the Hill too and consolidate it
with the big library up there. So I think that's just exactly the wrong thing to do, to
separate the teaching from the research. They don't have the facilities. But I'm
hoping we can get around that so that a lot of these people can still have joint
appointments and won't feel so strongly as they do about it. I considered it largely
political because there's always been...

That's true down at Stanford, too, for the machine down there which they
call, what do they call that? (PEP) Well, they have a big laboratory down there. The
director was trained here, worked with my brother. His name is Pete Panofsky.
Well, there's a lot of jealousy between the Stanford faculty and this enormous

85

laboratory. Just like there is on this campus between the campus here and this
enormous Laboratory because we have wonderful research, lots of Nobel Prize
winners, we're very famous for many contributions, lots of money. So down there
at Stanford, Pete Panofsky was professor of physics and another fellow who's a
friend of mine, who's head of Varian now, he was professor of physics. I don't see
him very often. He was telling me, "Oh yes, we have the same problem down there.
They don't like us down there at Stanford." It's that big linear accelerator that's
about a mile or two long. They've done a lot of important work. So they've kicked
them off of the faculty. Pete Panofsky's not a professor and this fellow that now is
head of Varian, he's a distinguished physicist and he was kicked off too. It's too
bad.

In the case of the Dormer, I was trying to bring the Laboratory closer to the
campus because we are on the campus and we get along pretty well with the campus
people. But these things, I guess, are common in all levels of life.

HARDIN JONES

Hughes: Can you tell me about the circumstances of Hardin Jones's arrival in Dormer Lab?

Lawrence: Yes, I remember the day when he came over to see me. He was getting some P-32
as a graduate student and he was working on fat metabolism with Prof. Chaikoff.
He was one of the many professors for whom we produced isotopes and was a good
friend of mine. He became a professor of Medical Physics and Physiology. They
were studying fat metabolism in the normal mouse using P-32. Jones wanted to
work with me on tumor metabolism, cancer metabolism. He knew I had a large
colony of mice and rats with tumors that I brought here from Yale. So after he got
his Ph.D. I got him a job here. He was one of our mainstays. He was a brilliant
teacher and a brilliant research man, and a man of great talent and capacity for
friendship.

Hughes: I know you published a fair amount together. Did you always have a close scientific

relationship?

Lawrence: Oh, yes. He, like Edward Teller and of course my brother, and a few other people
were my closest friends. Oh, yes, he was a great person, just like Edward Teller is.

86

Hughes: Can you tell me something about his theory of aging?

Lawrence: No, that's too long a story and also his work on drugs that he wrote a book on with
his fine wife Helen. The theory of aging I think basically is that aging is a result of
repeated insults to the body, particularly repeated infections over a period of years.
Just how he related that to circulation I don't know, but he showed definitely that
aging is related to the circulation rate so that you find some people at the age of
seventy who have an age of, say, fifty physiologically. He went out and studied
groups of people in companies. You find some people who are seventy or eighty
still working and he found that they had a young circulation. I'm not competent to
go into that. That's another story and it's too bad he's not here to talk to you because
he'd be one of the most interesting people to interview. He was a wonderful fellow.
If you wanted to you could talk to his wife, I suppose.

Hughes: What about Alex Grendon? I understand that they worked together for awhile.

Lawrence: Yes, Alex Grendon would be a good man to talk to. He's over eighty now and he's
just as clear as a bell. I see him every month or so. He lives in Sacramento.

Hughes: Can you remember when he became associated with Dormer Lab?

Lawrence: He came here after the war and he started working toward a Ph.D. in connection

with an army program. They wanted to train some of their people in atomic energy.
He primarily became attached to Hardin Jones. He's a brilliant man and is very
active on radiation protection problems.

Hughes: Were they research associates?

Lawrence: Oh, yes. They wrote papers together. They got into the field of cancer too and they
used mice.

87

JOHN GOFMAN

Hughes: Dr. Lawrence, I think you were going to say something about John Gofinan.

Lawrence: John Gofinan is an outstanding man. I was reminded of many things about John
Gofinan while going through some of my files. I saved the letters that he wrote to
me because he's one of the most sensitive and intelligent and able scientists that I've
ever known. He got his Ph.D. in chemistry. I don't know whether he got that under
Glenn Seaborg or not. Did he?

Hughes: Yes.

Lawrence: He was one of the co-discoverers of an isotope which is fissionable. I think it's
thorium; I can't remember the number. There are large amounts of thorium
available, particularly in India, so that there are unlimited amounts of thorium for
making atomic reactors. Then he went to medical school and got his M.D. degree,
so he's both a Ph.D. and an M.D. But I think of all the people that I've been
associated with in this Laboratory, and we've had some very outstanding ones, he's
probably the most brilliant, and he was a very hard worker.

Hughes: How did he come to Dormer Lab?

Lawrence: Well, I think that Ernest told me about him first. My brother had heard about John
Gofinan and that he was an unusual guy, and that's the way I got in touch with him.
Pretty soon we had him working in the Dormer Laboratory; and before long he
initiated an outstanding research program on body fats, blood lipids.

Hughes: Did he start that right away? Is that what he came to do, or did that develop later?

Lawrence: No, he didn't start that right away. He started using isotopes in research, but the

thing that you remember about him was the work that he did on fat metabolism, and
that group is still going here. The fellows that he trained are men now that are no
longer young men. Frank Lindgren is one of them. They have probably one of the
leading groups for the study of fat metabolism in the world, and they're recognized
all around the world. There are about four of them left here.

We could talk hours about Gofinan because, first place, he had this

Hughes:

88

marvelous training. Secondly, he has this terrific imagination, terrific ability.
Gofrnan did so many things that it'd take me an hour to tell you about them, but the
most important thing was his contributions to the physical and biochemistry of body
fats and blood fats. Of course, fats are so important in the problem of hardening of
the arteries and strokes and heart attacks.

Then he did many other things. For instance, he did the first work on what
we call X-ray fluorescence where you can take a sample of blood and shine a
characteristic X-ray on it and then get secondary X-ray off of it, and that'll give you
the amount of that element that's there, the Mosely numbers. So it's very sensitive
for detecting nearly all of the elements of the periodic table. That is used widely
now in biology and in chemistry and in physics and physical chemistry.

He was a very brilliant speaker and a good teacher. He trained a lot of
young men who have jobs throughout the country now. Some of the best ones are
here. I think about four of them, like Frank Lindgren and Tom Hayes and Alex
Nichols, who are still here. So all I say is that my idea of building up a laboratory is
to find people like that. So I am always looking for people like that, and my brother
was too, both in the field of physics and chemistry, on the Hill. But anytime he'd
hear about anybody, he'd tell me about it.

Well, one area that I know he got into a little bit later was this low-level radiation
business in the mid 'SOB. I know that was very controversial, and I imagine that it
was also controversial here in the Laboratory, and I was just wondering how he
was...

Lawrence: (interrupting) Well, it wasn't controversial in the Laboratory and I don't think it is
now except on a very small minority scale. In those days I even debated Linus
Pauling on this subject, must be 20, 25 years ago, in the Fairmont Hotel in San
Francisco. No, it wasn't the Fairmont, it was the (pause)...

Hughes: Mark Hopkins?

Lawrence: Mark Hopkins, yes. There were about a thousand people there.

John Gofman would very often talk on the same subject, and he and I were
both on the same side. We believed that the low levels of radiation that we received

89

naturally, like you receive now where you live or when you're here from cosmic
rays and from radiation in the walls of this building, were harmless. We don't think
there's any evidence that there's any harm. That's about 100 milliR per year that we
all get, and if you add on your diagnostic X-rays for teeth and lungs and any other
X-rays that you need, by then it grows out to maybe 125 to 150 milliR. But in order
to demonstrate a biological effect in animals, you have to give about 10,000 milliR,
which is ten R.

Hughes:
Lawrence:
Hughes:
Lawrence:

But Gofman changed. He (pause)... Well, one day Jonny Foster came down
to see me. Jonny Foster was director of the Livermore Laboratory where I spent day
before yesterday. And Jonny said, "I want John Gofman. I want to steal John
Gofrnan from you, because we want to start a program in biology and medicine at
Livermore." I said, "Well, Jonny, he's one of our best men, and I think he's probably
our best man, but I'm interested in the future of science and if it's clear that he wants
to go there, I think that that'd be a great place to have a program in biology and
medicine just like we have here." 1 said, "I can't object to that. I mean, it's up to you
and John." So he went out there and started a good strong group in biology and
medicine, using the facilities of the Livermore Laboratory. It's still going, and it's a
good group.

But he left that when he got interested in this lowlevel radiation. He
switched completely; I mean, from where I stand. I've talked to him about it a
couple of times, not during the last two or three years, and he and I don't agree on
that at all. He claims that background radiation is bad, that the little radiation that
we get from the atomic reactors is bad, that it causes cancer, and I think he's wrong.

Does he have experimental evidence to support this?

No, no, no.

Where does he get these ideas?

Well, he just, he just... What he does is like a lot of these people that are very vocal
on this subject, (pause) Let's say 10,000 milliR, and as you go up, why, we'll say
that the effect gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Well then, what he does, and a lot
of these people do, is extrapolate right down to zero. So they say, "Well, we don't
know what happens in this area here, but we assume that every little bit of radiation

90

that you had added on is bad and it produces cancer and leukemia, and so forth." If
that's true, then you'd never want to live in Denver, or you'd never want to fly to
New York in a plane. The pilots that fly the jets from here to New York get
enormous doses of radiation because of the cosmic rays. The cosmic rays in Denver
are about 20 milliR per year. If you live in La Paz in Bolivia, why, it goes up to
maybe 40 milliR per year. So that's really the argument.

My philosophy is that you have to weigh risks versus benefits. Now, if you
assume that they're right, that you extrapolate right down to zero and you don't want
to add on any more radiation at all, then you've got to compare it with what other
risks we have in our everyday life. It's like the Three Mile Island accident. Nobody
was killed there, but all kinds of people have been killed in industry, every day and
every year, and automobile accidents and all sorts of risks we take. Now
particularly with the Russian situation, we've got to have energy and we've got to
have electricity, and if there's a little risk, it's so small and the benefits are so great.
And of course we have smog and we have all of these environmental things that
we're breathing every day, and we have monitors. I think one reactor gives less than
a milliR per year per person.

Now he and another young fellow (Arthur Tamplin), who worked at
Dormer, have been appearing before committees and have completely switched on
this. Like this man Chauncey Starr. He spoke before the Regents here a year ago
when they wanted us (UC) to get out of the Livermore and Los Alamos Labora
tories. Charlie Schwartz was one who's a professor of physics here, but there's
another one who gave away the Pentagon secrets. What's his name?

Hughes: Ellsberg?

Lawrence: Yes, I guess so. I've heard him speak before the Regents, and those fellows call

us murderers that sponsor the Livermore and Los Alamos Laboratories. So I don't
understand John that way, but I have the greatest admiration for him as a scientist
and as a person, and he'll always be a friend of mine. I don't think he's right, but I
wish he'd stayed in the laboratory out there doing research on cancer because I
think he had a terrific future. He must be close to 60 years old now, or maybe
older.

Hughes: I think he's retired now.

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Lawrence: He became a full professor here before he went to Livermore, and he resigned
from the University, and he wrote me a letter about that. He's very puzzling to
me, because very few of my friends agree with him. I mean, I know a lot of
people in atomic energy. He's one of a half dozen like that.

The majority of people that know atomic energy, both medical and
biological and physical, are not worried about low-level radiation, and we are
going to go ahead and build reactors in the United States. Jerry Brown, of course,
has stopped us for the time being in California, but he won't win out. Jerry Brown
has gone along with this to stop the building of atomic reactors.

Hughes: At the time that you and he were on the same side, when you were debating with

people like Pauling, were you both arguing for the AEC safe radiation levels...

Lawrence: ...were okay.
Hughes: ...were all right?

Lawrence: Yes, yes, yes. He'd very often take my place when I couldn't give a talk, because
I'd got more demands than he did because 1 was older than he and had been in the
field longer. But when I couldn't give a talk, he'd take my place. I've got copies
of some of his talks that 're much stronger than the ones I gave.

Hughes: Were you arguing against the current levels of safe radiation

Lawrence: Oh no, I...

Hughes: ...or were you saying it was all right?

Lawrence: I was arguing that you have to get up to a certain level before there's any danger,
compared to the benefits achieved, as in the case of atomic reactors.

Hughes: Yet I remember in a previous interview you said that that threshold has been

lowered over the years.

Lawrence: Yes, it has, but it's never been down to zero. Anyway, Gofrnan is what makes a

92

university great, and none of us understand what happens to some of us. Maybe
he's right and I'm wrong. You see what I mean? So I just say that he's one of the
great people we've had in this Laboratory, and I could talk about eight or ten
others. But I think he's probably the most brilliant of them all.

MELVIN CALVIN

Hughes: What about Calvin? How did his association with Dormer come about?

Lawrence: Well, there again, Calvin was an outstanding young chemist, (pause) In order to
build up a laboratory, just like Gorman, we recognized that here's a man that is
outstanding and we went after him and got him to join the Laboratory. I think he
was a young instructor then. He became a very active member of the Laboratory.

I made some notes on the first man that showed, with carbon- 1 1, the way
the plants take carbon dioxide out of the air and produce oxygen. This is a note
on the back of a letter about Sam Ruben. I knew Sam Ruben very well and I was
with him when he died. I've got in his handwriting, in my files, the first paper he
wrote. He hadn't even published it yet. He gave me the thing to read. But he ap
parently had it typed and gave me the handwritten article. He's the pioneer in
photosynthesis. Well, Calvin is just as brilliant, I guess, as Sam Ruben. But Sam
Ruben was a very young fellow like Calvin, and charming and extremely able. So
that's the kind of people we were looking for. Ruben was working in the
Laboratory too.

Hughes: Did Calvin build upon Sam Ruben's work, or was he starting out afresh?

Lawrence: Well, he knew from Sam Ruben's work that you could trace the path of carbon in
photosynthesis. But he used carbon- 14. We didn't have carbon- 14 then (when
Ruben did his work). Carbon- 1 1 was the only isotope of carbon we had.

Hughes: Do you remember the arrangement when Calvin came to the Lab? What was he

supposed to do for you?

Lawrence: Oh, he wasn't supposed to do anything for me.

93

Hughes: Well, I meant for the Lab.

Lawrence: We just set up an organization to build around Calvin to do... You see, chemistry
and physics are very important. I was mostly in medicine. So he and his
associates did some things for me, but he had his own group. He and some of his
students... One of them is a professor at Boulder now, and he wrote a couple of
papers on some studies we did on human beings with carbon- 14 and CO2. We
built groups. Like Seaborg, he had a group, and Calvin had a group, I had a
group.

Hughes: Where did that group system come from? 1 don't believe you had that formal

system before the war, did you? The system of formal groups with a leader who
was supposed to direct the research of the group.

Lawrence: No, that we didn't. But during the war, nearly all of them got involved in the war
projects.

Hughes: But before the war, did you work in that system?

Lawrence: We started working with isotopes and radiations in 1935, so that we had quite a
large group in the Old Radiation Lab and then in the old Crocker Lab. Then in
'41 , we built the Dormer Lab, and so we had quite a few people working. Hardin
Jones was one of the people that came to me as a graduate student and wanted to
work with our group in biology and medicine.

Hughes: That group leader system, was that simply a development because of the sheer

numbers within the organization?

Lawrence: No, that's the history of science. That's always the way it is. In Germany and in
all countries, you have one man that's a leader, and he'll have a lot of people
working with him. I don't think that's unique at all.

Hughes: I was wondering if the titles were something that developed because of the AEC

sponsorship.

Lawrence: No, no, they just grew up naturally. I believed and my brother believed in
so-called interdisciplinary research, so that the Laboratory was the first big

94

laboratory in the world, I guess... (pause) Yes, it's the first big laboratory in the
world where they had people with various backgrounds working together. It's
being done widely now because everything is getting so complicated that you've
got to have mathematics and chemistry and physics and electronics, medicine, and
biology and biochemistry and biophysics. So there's really interdisciplinary
research.

Hughes:
Lawrence:

My whole feeling, that has been neglected in medicine particularly, is to
bring in people like Gofman or Saul Winchell, who got his Ph.D. with me, or Rex
Huff, who got his Ph.D. here, or Ted Prentice, or Stephen Landau, or Nat Berlin.
All these fellows were M.D.s who came here and got their Ph.D.s. Then we had a
lot of people that came here just to get their Ph.D.s, without their M.D.s. So you'd
have a few people like Gofrnan who had the ability to be a great chemist and also
a good physician. If I were sick, a couple of times when I got the flu, I'd call John
Gofman to come out and take care of me. He had terrific common sense. He was
a good doctor.

It's unusual to get both abilities in one man.

It's what we're trying to do now where I'm on this committee that's trying to find a
new director for the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory. We had a meeting last
Friday, and we are interviewing candidates now, but the problem is to find a good
scientist who's also a leader. Gofman was a good, great scientist. He's a good
leader, great leader, but also he had the combination of training in basic science
and medicine. There are very few people who have all those things.

HAL ANGER

Lawrence: I talked yesterday to Hal Anger, who's the first man to develop a camera for

imaging parts of the body. I read last night the life history of another friend of
mine, who is Benedict Cassen, who was the first man to develop a scanner at
UCLA. Hal's been with us since he was a young fellow. And that's spread all
over the world. You find Hal Anger's camera and Cassen's scanners all over the
world, Russia or Hungary or Poland or community hospitals all over California.

Hughes: Did you bring Anger here specifically to develop instruments to detect...?

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Lawrence: No. Just like Bill Brobeck came to my brother when he was building, I guess, the
third cyclotron. Brobeck said, "1 want to work here." And my brother said, "Well,
I don't have any money." "Well, that don't make a difference," he said, "I still
want to work here." He became the greatest engineer in the world for building
cyclotrons. He resigned from the Laboratory after he had been with it for twenty-
five years and founded a company called the Cyclotron Specialties Company, and
they build cyclotrons all over the world now.

I was reading last night three books that Mrs. Hevesy sent me, who is the
wife of George Hevesy. They tell about his early experiments with Ernest
Rutherford, and his early experiments in which he used a form of radioactive lead,
which is really an isotope of radium, in a tracer experiment in class. Well, nobody
could help but be excited about a tracer experiment, to be able to follow a
compound in the body. Any young fellow, in those days they flocked here.

Fellows like Bob Wilson, I used to go skiing with him. We were
considering him as a possible director for the Laboratory on the Hill. I told David
Saxon, "You know, Bob Wilson and I used to ski together." He was one of many
people that came here to work with my brother in physics. But I said, "He's too
old." And Dave Saxon said, "Well, how old do you think he is?" "I think he's
about 65." Well, Saxon's assistant looked him up and he says, "You're right. He's
exactly 65." Fellows like Bob Wilson came here. Luis Alvarez came here.
Seaborg came here; he was in chemistry. G.N. Lewis was very close to my
brother, and in a way he was close to me because I got to know him and I helped
him on some experiments with heavy water. I think I told you about that.

Hughes: Yes, you did. Had Anger heard about Dormer Lab's work and thought, "Well, this

is the logical place to develop instrumentation for detection of these
radioisotopes?" Also, he was attracted to Cornelius Tobias,
the chief Biophysicist.

Lawrence: You'd have to have instrumentation.

Hughes: Do you think it was in his mind to come to Dormer Lab specifically to build the

instruments that you would need...?

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Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:

Hughes:
Lawrence:

No, I don't think so. I think he just came here because it was an exciting place
and Cornelius Tobias attracted and helped him. I think I told you that he later got
an offer to be a full professor in Chicago, didn't I?

I don't think you did.

This fellow that's retired now from Chicago, an old friend of mine, Leon
Jacobson, he did a lot of work with isotopes and is a little younger than I am, but
not much. He became dean of the University of Chicago. Leon wrote me and he
said, "Dear John, out of all fairness to you, I'm writing a letter to Hal Anger
offering him a full professorship with tenure at the University of Chicago." Here's
a fellow that only had a bachelor's degree in engineering. So I wrote back to
Leon — I think I called him — and I said, "Leon, go ahead. We've always
encouraged people to get as many offers as they can, particularly if they're
interested. The more people that get offers, the better it is for our staff because
then our salaries go up too." It's always worked that way. Well, he turned it
down.

What

was his position here at that stage, do you remember?

He was a senior scientist. That's all. He's a senior scientist now. He called me
yesterday and talked over something. He's a wonderful fellow. He's gotten all
kinds of prizes and recognitions. Just a simple guy like he always was, like Ernest
Lawrence was.

JOHN NORTHROP

Hughes: Well, another relationship that Dormer Lab had for some time was with John

Howard Northrop. I was wondering exactly how that came about? I know for
some time he was a professor and research biophysicist here and I believe had a
joint appointment in bacteriology.

Lawrence: Yes, I recommended to the President and he appointed him professor of

biophysics. He was working down in the Life Sciences Building. We had two or
three other people that had appointments with us but were working elsewhere. He
is a man that is one of the great scientists, I think, of this century. He's still living

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and I should go down and see him in Arizona soon and go clay pigeon shooting
with him.

Hughes: He must be close to ninety.

Lawrence: Yes, he must be close to ninety. He's quite deaf, but he's still pretty well. He's a
very strong man. I've known him for many years. My wife and Dr. Northrop and
Mrs. Northrop and I, we hit it off when President Sproul asked me to show him
around and get acquainted on this campus when they invited him out here. That
must be over twenty years ago. So we were very close friends of Jack Northrop.

Hughes: Did Wendell Stanley have a part in bringing him out here?

Lawrence: No, I don't think so. I think that they both came at the same time, but they were
not working together. They happened to both come from the Rockefeller Institute
in Princeton. But I don't think they worked together there and I know they didn't
here. They didn't work together and they worked on different subjects although
both of them did chemistry and biology of viruses. For instance, Northrop got the
Nobel Prize for crystallizing chymotrypsin, which is the enzyme in your stomach
that digests meat, and Wendell Stanley got the Nobel Prize for crystallizing the
tobacco mosaic virus. But that's typical of Sproul. He wanted to get new and out
standing people all the time in the University.

Hughes: Didn't Northrop come with Rockefeller money?

Lawrence: Yes, he came with Rockefeller money. He had a nice laboratory and one

technician. He's a lone worker; he wouldn't have any graduate students. He said
they were sort of a nuisance. That's the only tragedy about Jack Northrop. He
wrote about one or two papers a year, and they were outstanding papers. But he
told me, "Graduate students just take too much of my time." So he didn't do any
teaching. But he did have a few people with him in the East. I don't think he had
more than one man here, maybe one or two.

Hughes: He seems to have left rather suddenly in 1970. He retired from the University and

went to Arizona.

Lawrence: Well, yes, he had to retire. I remember I had correspondence with the Rockefeller

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people on that, because Jack didn't want to retire. But he had reached the age, I
think, of seventy, and we stretched it out. (phone rings) I happen to know the
head of the Rockefeller Institute (phone rings) and they kept him on for two or
three more years, (pause to answer phone) He was a (Rockefeller Foundation)
lifetime investigator, but after a certain age, I think it was sixty-seven, he had to
retire. But they extended him, I think to seventy. I was in correspondence,
fighting the battle for him to keep him on, because he was still very productive.

Hughes: Were you doing this largely because you were a friend of his?

Lawrence: Well, I was doing it largely because he was a great scientist, not on a friendship
basis. You never do things like that, I never have, on the basis of friendship, for
people in the Laboratory. I've had a lot of people in the Laboratory that I've
supported that were not really good friends of mine. As a matter of fact, some of
them have been problems. But I've recognized that they were so good that I
backed them and helped them get support and everything. So I wouldn't do
anything in the way of a public trust like I had, just on the basis of friendship. Oh,
Northrop was recognized as a great scientist.

Hughes: I was just wondering why you were doing the battling rather than, say, the

chairman of the Department of Bacteriology? Or were you both?

Lawrence: Well, I guess they were, but they were short of space down there. I just don't

know. The Regents keep people on up to eighty. But why they didn't do that in
the case of Northrop... What they should have done was taken him over and made
him a professor, let him work until he was about seventy-five. We have quite a
few people on all the campuses that are over sixty-seven and some are eighty and
older.

Hughes: Why do you think the Regents didn't take over?

Lawrence: Well, they do that because they largely depend on faculty recommendations. So
there are certain faculty members that have backing, the recommendations come
to the Regents, and the Regents okay it. I can't think of any instance right now
where the Regents independently have picked out a man and said, "Let's keep him
on." It's come from the faculty.

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Hughes: But that didn't happen in the case of Northrop.

Lawrence: No, he was one of the great scientists in the University. They should have kept
him on, because...

Hughes: Did you talk to the Regents about keeping him on?

Lawrence: No, I didn't talk to the Regents about it. I was not on the Board of Regents then.
No, no, you sort of have to work within the... No, I probably should have. But I
thought that the Rockefeller people should support him. They were friends of
mine. I guess I just never thought of going to the Regents; probably I should
have.

THE DIVISION OF MEDICAL PHYSICS AND BIOPHYSICS

Hughes: Well, shall we talk a little about the Division of Medical Physics? I was

wondering when the idea of having an academic unit associated with the medical
physics group arose.

Lawrence: That was always my (pause) belief, that there's terrific opportunity on a great
university campus like this, with a very fine laboratory like Dormer, which is
really a foot on the campus for the laboratory on the Hill, although we were more
or less separate, geographically. It'd be a great place to have an academic division
because we had all kinds of students coming here to get their Ph.D.s, but we had
no way of awarding them at first. So from the very beginning I said, "We ought
to have an academic division here." So we worked on that for years, and then
finally it worked out that we have one. But it took a lot of work and a lot of
politics.

Hughes: Why was the Department of Physics chosen as a location for the Division as

opposed, for example, to the Medical School?

Lawrence: Well, there's no medical school here.

Hughes: Was it ever a consideration that you'd be affiliated with a medical school?

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Lawrence: Oh, it was affiliated with it, but you can't affiliate with UCLA at that distance, or
even at San Francisco. You have to work here. We have always had affiliations
with the Medical School. But there was a lot of politics, a lot of discussion, and a
lot of objections to it, because we were doing some medicine here. Those things
are not interesting to talk about. It's more interesting to talk about the positive
results.

Hughes: Was it ever a consideration to associate with one of the biological sciences? You

were doing medical physics. You could swing either way.

Lawrence: No, the biological sciences were not what we were after. We were after the basic
sciences of chemistry and physics, not the biological sciences like zoology and
biology. We wanted the association with the physics, chemistry, mathematics and
electronics. That's still true that a lot of the biological departments haven't come
as far as we have. The Dormer was one of the first laboratories in the country
where they had real interdisciplinary research on problems in biology and
medicine.

No, there was no consideration about affiliations of the Division with the
Medical School at all. We weren't after that. We didn't need a large hospital; we
didn't need a biology department. What we needed was close association with the
basic sciences. That still hasn't taken hold all over the country.

Hughes: Was Dr. Birge always very supportive of the Division?

Lawrence: Oh, he was very supportive; he always was. He was one of the main supporters.
Another man, who perhaps was our strongest supporter and advisor during the
political times, was Leonard Loeb, a good friend of mine, whose father was
Jacques Loeb. We needed older men because of... I see it now at the level of the
Board of Regents; the politics that goes on at the University is always present.
There are always jealousies and then there's always suspicion about new fields.
So we needed the support of people like Birge and Leonard Loeb, and we got it.
Finally now it's recognized as an outstanding department. It's got fifty graduate
students in it now, and the first one was under me, is a doctor that must be about
fifty-five years old now.

I think the simple story is that the Division grew out of the belief that I had

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and my brother had that medicine didn't have what it needs. It didn't have the real
basic sciences. Now they've changed in biology and biochemistry a lot since
those days. A lot of them are trained much better. In molecular biology, they're
trained much better. Fellows like Jones, Tobias, Tom Hayes, John Gofrnan, Saul
Winchell, Stephen Landau, Tom Budinger, Nat Berlin. And then we had people
from European countries. They all had good training in the basic sciences. It's
not so simple now, of course. Molecular biology is getting close to physical
chemistry.

Hughes: Was one of the leading reasons for founding the Division of Medical Physics so

that people associated with Dormer could have academic standing?

Lawrence: No, the reason for the Division of Medical Physics was very simple. It was a
great opportunity for the University to benefit from research programs so that
students could be working in the Laboratory toward their degrees. So it was
simply a great gift to the University. We got the University to pay two-fifths of
the salaries of assistant professors or instructors or associate professors. Even
today I think all but two men are paid three-fifths by our laboratory budget most
of which comes from the AEC or DOE or research grants from the NIH or from
private foundations. So it's really a free ride for the University academically.
Medical Physics has a small budget. Most of those people have to get their
research funds from outside the University and from the Laboratory. The
Laboratory supports most of the professors that we have.

THE INTERDEPARTMENTAL GRADUATE GROUP IN
MEDICAL PHYSICS AND BIOPHYSICS

Hughes: This is about the Graduate Group in Biophysics which was founded in 1947. I

was wondering how the idea got going and who was involved. I know it was an
interdepartmental group.

Lawrence: Well, the idea was that here we had a fine laboratory in Dormer and also we had
the Hill. There was a great opportunity for the students with our Laboratory on
campus to learn basic science, particularly those interested in biology. So very
early, Joe Hamilton and Hardin Jones and Cornelius Tobias and later John
Gofrnan— all of the early workers— wanted to organize a Division of Medical

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Physics so that we could have an undergraduate and graduate program toward a
Ph.D. in this field. It finally worked out, and we've got a pretty good department.

Hughes: Yes, but I'm speaking specifically of the Graduate Group in Biophysics which was

a little bit different than the Division of Medical Physics.

Lawrence: The University has many interdepartmental groups that award the Ph.D. I can't
remember all of them now, but there are quite a few. So the easiest way to
organize this was to develop an undergraduate major for our group and then we
join in with an interdepartmental group for the awarding of the Ph.D. So you can
be a teacher in botany and have a student getting a Ph.D. in biophysics. But it's
really run by this Division here; they control it. The chairman of it right now is
Cornelius Tobias. Joe Hamilton and I were really the two key men at the
beginning. It's really run by the Division of Medical Physics, or it's the
Department of Biophysics and Medical Physics now. I'd say perhaps nearly 50
percent of the students are working in this Laboratory.

My brother and I always thought there was a terrific opportunity in
biology and medicine to bring in physics, chemistry, mathematics, all the basic
sciences which were neglected in medical schools.

Hughes: I'm still a bit confused because Alan Bearden is chairman of the Department of

Medical Physics and Biophysics, and you say that Tobias is in charge of the
interdepartmental group that you were talking about.

Lawrence: Yes. Tobias is in overall charge of the big group. They're having a meeting here
in June. But others in other departments can have graduate students too, and
have a strong influence.

Hughes: Then how does Bearden fit into all that?

Lawrence: Well, he's just head of the Department of Medical Physics and Biophysics. But
he comes under that group too. He has to follow the rules of the group as far as
Ph.D.s are concerned.

I've told the Regents that they've had a free ride for many years in a
department which got very little money from the University. Three- fifths of the

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salaries were paid by our research program until recently, and I still think about
half are, of those fellows that are on the faculty. Bearden I think is fulltime at the
University now. But most of the faculty get over half of their money from the
Laboratory. This is an outcome of research at the Dormer Laboratory.

RESEARCH AND THERAPY ON HUMANS

Hughes: One of the problems that did exist at this time with the Medical School was this

business of human medical work — a battle that I think you waged for a long time.

Lawrence: We didn't have any battle there. We'd hear about it, but we didn't have any battle.

And we weren't experimenting. We were doing things that we thought should
be done, that you would do on yourself, given the conditions of the patients. We
didn't have any battles.

I was talking with a man in the hall now who's in charge of this ten-bed
research unit over at Cowell Hospital which was build with private funds. I
raised the money for it from patients that I've taken care of, and it's probably the
only place in the country now where you have a ten-bed investigative unit where
you use isotopes and radiations, and associated with LBL and Dormer and all the
benefits and associations.

We just moved right along, but there were a lot of politicians and a lot of
people who weren't politicians who objected to what we were doing. But we
knew what we were doing and we didn't get into fields that we didn't know about.
We always had competent M.D.s on our staffer associated with us.

Hughes: How did you set up the pavilion at Cowell Hospital?

Lawrence: Well, Dr. William G. Donald and I contacted President Sproul about that.

Hughes: You added a wing onto the existing hospital?

Lawrence: Yes, it's still very active. I don't get over there very often, but it's got a laboratory
on one floor and beds on the other.

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Hughes: Did that allow you to increase the volume of your research?

Lawrence: Oh, sure. We had patients in there all the time that we were treating or studying.
We didn't consider that research on humans. We considered what we were doing
was for the benefit of the patients.

There's so much talk now about research on humans. Last night my
youngest son and I listened to the television, a program in which they were
demonstrating how the army had given drugs to some of the recruits. They
interviewed one recruit who got some drug, and I told Steve, "That's one patient.
He might be a psychiatric patient, and I just don't believe that Army doctors, or
any other doctors, are going to take a human being and treat him like a guinea
pig." For instance, I wouldn't allow anybody connected with this Laboratory to
give radioactive iodine to young people. We had it here. Other places were doing
it, but we wouldn't do it. We wouldn't use students for experiments. We'd do our
studies on patients who were sick, and most of them were very sick. Had serious
diseases. Nearly all of our work has been on patients with serious diseases. Like
that book I wrote twenty-five years ago on polycythemia. I don't know if I've a
copy of it here now, but it's a disease that we treated with radioactive phosphorus,
and it's used all over the world, including Russia. It's widely recognized and it's
practically a cure for the disease.

Here's the last volume of Recent Advances in Nuclear Medicine that we
edit. We also edit another book called Advances in Biological and Medical
Physics. Now we're planning the next volume. Every two years we come out
with a volume of each.

We were working with patients who had serious problems, like leukemia,
polycythemia, aplastic anemia, and so the problem of experimentation didn't come
up as much as it does now. Now you have to have a review committee to be sure
that you're doing everything that should be done. We didn't take any chances.

We wouldn't use radioactive iron either. We'd send it away if people
wanted it, hoping that they would use it on animals, but we wouldn't use
radioactive iron in humans because there was not a short-lived isotope of iron.

A friend of mine, who retired about two years ago from UCLA as

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professor of medicine down there, was a subject in radioactive iron experiments
that we provided the iron for. Martin Kamen provided the iron for this fellow,
who was working with George Whipple at the University of Rochester. He gave
himself radioactive iron, labeled his red cells, but that iron is still in his body, so if
you take blood from him, forty years later, his blood is still radioactive. We didn't
use radioactive iron in patients until iron-59, which has a half-life of 49 days or 47
days, was discovered. So we were very careful about these things.

I am always afraid of radiation. For instance, my daughter happens to
have a perfect set of teeth, and a French doctor wanted her to have full mouth
X-rays. I said, "Shelley, you don't want to have any X-rays taken unless they're
necessary." So I go along with this business of avoiding radiation, but I take the
philosophy of risk versus benefit. I don't think she has more than one filling in
her mouth. Perfect set of teeth which she inherited from my mother, who didn't
have a single filling until she was about seventy-eight years old. So I still protect
people from radiation and I don't believe in throwing it around.

Hughes: In 1950 I know you began a radioisotope unit at Highland Hospital.

Lawrence: Yes, that was the first hospital radioactive unit. It's still going, too. We ran it
until about five years ago.

Hughes: Were you training people as you were doing this?

Lawrence: Oh yes, we had people in charge who worked out there, one or two people all the
time, and they worked half-time here and half-time out there. Oh yes, they were
all training interns and house officers.

Hughes: Were physicians in the community fairly...?

Lawrence: Physicians in the community were on the staff of Highland Hospital.

Hughes: Were they receptive to the use of radioisotopes?

Lawrence: Oh, of course. Oh, they never had any problem there. I see doctors of my age
now all the time, who are retired now, who sent patients to us twenty, thirty, or
forty years ago. Oh no, we didn't have any trouble with the medical profession.

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Hughes: I was talking the other day to Kenneth Scott who used to be here at the Crocker

Laboratory.

Lawrence: I used to see Ken a lot. He went over to the Medical School and founded a
Nuclear Medicine Unit there. Now most of the staff were trained in
Dormer.

Hughes: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you about. Do you know anything about why

that Radioactivity Research Center was set up there?

Lawrence: Well, how could you avoid it? They're all over the world now. They call this
(Berkeley) the cradle of nuclear medicine.

Hughes: So it was just an outgrowth of what was happening...

Lawrence: Oh sure.
Hughes: ...on this campus.

Lawrence: It's happened all over the world. Oh yes, every place I go. The other night I was
out at a dinner party and a man said, "I have polycythemia." I've never seen him
as a patient. He says, "I'm treated by a doctor who trained with you." So that's
spread all over the world.

THE OMNITRON AND THE BEVALAC

Hughes: Well, another issue that I was interested in, the story behind the bevalac. You

mentioned at a much earlier interview that the AEC turned down the proposal...

Lawrence: I was talking about that when I was in Cincinnati last week before the wedding. I
spent four days at the university there, in the Department of Nuclear Medicine.
The head of that department, Eugene Saenger, is a very good friend of mine.

Since I began working with neutrons and Tobias began working with
heavy particles, we got together many years ago and finally we realized that since

107

heavy particles produce very dense ionization in tissue, they have great potential
in cancer therapy. So we wanted to get a machine that would produce very high
energy particles that would penetrate deeply into tissue so that you could treat
some of these hopeless cancer patients. Believe me, there's an awful lot of
hopeless cancer, even though standard surgery and radiation and chemotherapy do
much. This ionization that's produced by neutrons and heavy particles, such as
carbon and neon and argon and krypton, is unique in its biological effect, because
it'll kill cells in the absence of oxygen. X-rays won't. If you don't have adequate
oxygen, X-rays are not very effective in killing cancer. In spite of that, a lot of
people are cured from cancer by radiation. My mother was, my wife Amy wasn't,
and that's another story.

This independence of the effect on the killing of cells of the oxygen
content interested me from the first experiments I did way back in '35 on neutrons.
At that time we found out that neutrons were more effective in killing cells than
X-rays, per unit dose, but we didn't understand why. Then the oxygen effect
information came along and then we understood it. So Toby and I wanted to get a
machine that would be useful in treating patients with hopeless cancer. If you
start looking for cancer patients, you don't have to look very far. You just go up
on the Hill right now and you can see them. We are treating a lot of them right
now. Pancreas, stomach, brain, those are three of the most important.

So we were practically urged to build this machine. Wish I could pull out
a plan on it. We had a big, big brochure on it. It was going to be called the
omnitron. The omnitron was going to produce heavy particles that would
penetrate deeply and produce dense ionization much better than neutrons, because
neutrons fall off in their dose to the tissues whereas heavy particles come up like
that. (Draws Bragg peak.)

Toby and I got scared when we were being more or less told that we could
have the money, thirty million dollars. But we couldn't get the physicists or the
chemists interested. And we didn't want to build that machine for our use alone.
Everybody was saying that we were going to cure all kinds of cancer with it.
Well, it was probably going to do some good, but we had a terrible time and
fortunately we hesitated. There were a lot of enthusiastic people from
Washington and from NASA who wanted us to do this.

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Hughes: And they were going to provide the money?

Oh yes! They were going to provide the money. I particularly was very
hesitant about it. We hadn't turned it down completely yet; we were replanning it.
Pretty soon a scientist on the Hill by the name of Albert Ghiorso, who's still
working up there at the hilac-he's not a faculty member but he's one of the staff
members of the Laboratory—got the idea of running a vacuum rube from the hilac,
which is the machine that produced lots of new elements... That's one of the
machines at least. It's fairly low energy; I think it's about 20 MV per nucleon. He
got the idea of hooking the hilac up with the bevatron, which was at one time the
biggest atom smasher in the world, and in that way using the hilac as the injector,
then whirling those atoms around in the bevatron, and then pulling them out and
using them. And that's what we got.

The AEC turned it down and I was very active on that. It was while I was
a Regent. It's the first time I've entered into politics, in the sense that we (Toby
and I) went to the highest man in the government that I could get in touch with.

I said, "Look, for two million dollars we are have a whole new program of
ionization and a form of radiation that's got to be tried in cancer." Then I got
Edward Teller to see him and I got Glen Campbell, one of the Regents, to see
him. The AEC was overruled and the two million dollars was given to us. Not
very many people know this, but I spent a lot of time on that. It's a cheap way of
getting what we wanted, which would have cost thirty million dollars. Now it's
going on and it'll be another five to ten years to know the results. It's not going to
solve cancer, but I think it's going to cure some people that can't be cured now.

Hughes: Why did the AEC turn you down?

Lawrence: A lot of people don't think that irradiation is very important. But if you have
cancer, or your wife has cancer, or your mother has cancer, or a patient has
cancer, it's pretty, important. For the individual it's important. But a lot of
people said there were better ways to spend the money, I suppose. I don't know
why they turned it down.

Hughes: That's hard to understand when the figures show that cancer is the number two

killer nowadays, just behind heart disease.

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Lawrence: You go to these big hospitals and see a ward full of kids with cancer. And it's
young people, too. We're not making any great progress in it. It's being done at
Los Alamos with pi mesons, also dense ionization. We did the original work here
with the 1 84-inch cyclotron, all the animal work. Then we shipped our men down
there, and Raju was one of them. So they have a very big program going at Los
Alamos and on the Hill now in the treatment of cancer. Excellent people running
it.

Hughes: You mentioned that the chemists and the physicists weren't interested in the

omnitron.

Lawrence: I don't understand that. We had committees several times come out, and I got
Edward Teller to come out to my house one night. He talked to them and was
very enthusiastic about the physics and chemistry that could be done with the
bevalac. He was a very good friend of my wife and me too, and still is. He and I
each received a medal in Montreal a couple weeks ago.

Hughes: What was it for?

Lawrence: His medal was for his contribution to the problems of energy, and mine was for
work in medical research and diagnosis and therapy.

Hughes: What organization?

Lawrence: It was the American College of Nuclear Medicine, at their annual meeting. They
held it in Montreal this time. So we had a great time. He's a wonderful man and a
very hard worker, still very active.

I got him out to our house and he was the only physicist that I could get
interested in the omnitron. Couldn't get any of the chemists interested. But now
with the bevalac you have to cry for time. Scientists from all over the country
come here and use it. They're very generous, and scientists from other
universities too.

no

NUCLEAR MEDICINE AND THE MEDICAL CURRICULUM

Hughes: Can you think back to when instruction in nuclear medicine became a recognized

part of medical education?

Lawrence: Well, I don't think it is yet. When I was in Cincinnati I attended a postgraduate

course one Saturday. There were about two hundred young men and women there
who had just completed their residency training in radiology. So this was sort of a
review for these people. I think it was a four-day meeting put on by the
Department of Radiology and Nuclear Medicine. So I heard a couple of talks
there. One of them was by Gene Saenger on the diagnosis of bone lesions with
radioactive pyrophosphate labeled with technetium. He gave a very good review.

-

I stayed at their home with Gene and his wife. They have a large home and they
like to have people stay there so they don't have to run back and forth downtown
to pick them up. I said, "Gene, you know those people you talked to today, you
know how much nuclear medicine they get in their training? They get practically
none in medical school and they get three months of nuclear medicine training."
And he said, "That's really true, John." He said, "That's really true." You can't
learn nuclear medicine in three months.

Hughes: Why is that?

Lawrence: Well, again it's political in this sense, that the radiologists who are experts in

imaging, that is in looking at X-ray films, realize that nuclear medicine is terribly
important in the operation of a radiology department, and there's a lot of money in
it. A third of all patients in this country now have some sort of a nuclear medicine
procedure done when they're admitted to a hospital. That is a third of all hospital
admissions have a nuclear medicine procedure, many of which have been started
here.

So to get back to why this training is so poor. That's one of the reasons
that we've trained so many excellent people here. I mean a lot of them like Tom
Budinger, Saul Winchell, Rex Huff, and the fellow that's professor of medicine at
Syracuse now. Well, there are dozens of them. They spent from one to five years
here. A lot of them got their Ph.D. s. They really learned nuclear medicine. They
learned the physics of it, the chemistry of it, and the patient care. You can't learn
it in three months. But still these inadequately trained people will take this

Hughes:
Lawrence:
Hughes:
Lawrence:

111
nuclear medicine board exam and they'll be licensed to practice nuclear medicine.

Gene Saenger admits that it's wrong and we are training a lot of people in
places like this that are the top people in the country. I think it's a matter of
money. That's another problem in medicine nowadays: everything is so ex
pensive. X-rays, nuclear medicine procedures are very expensive. An X-ray
department doesn't want to lose the nuclear medicine part of it. I think that's
largely political and largely money.

Well now, these radiation people, they learn radiation therapy with the
cobalt and Varian tubes and so forth. They learn X-ray diagnosis and nuclear
medicine all in about four years, but only about three months of it is nuclear
medicine. That's not adequate. Most of the leaders in the country in nuclear
medicine, the top people, are trained much longer, and many with a background in
internal medicine.

Is it the radiologists that are opposing longer training in nuclear medicine?

Yes, it's the radiologists.

They just don't want to give up any space in the curriculum?

Yes, I was in on a lot of discussions on that in meetings with them. They just
don't want to give up. So lots of departments of nuclear medicine are divisions of
a department of radiology. But some of them are separate. A lot of private
practitioners that are radiologists do some nuclear medicine too.

THE ALPHA OMEGA FOUNDATION

Hughes: In about 1960 you founded the Alpha Omega Foundation. Can you tell me about

the purpose of the foundation?

Lawrence: Well, yes. I'm a great believer in foundations. We got started here from

foundations. All my early work was supported by private foundations. I had
some stocks that my uncle who's a banker had left to my brother and me. Then I'd
made a few investments so I had this extra money and I thought I'd start a

112

foundation. It wasn't very much money, but it's big enough so that now I can have
one of my boys on the board, and other persons on the board. I helped found
another foundation in San Francisco, too, that's rather small. We give away
$35,000 or more per year. It's a lot of fun. We give quite a bit to this Laboratory
and to U.C. and to Stanford and elsewhere.

Hughes: It is all medically oriented?

Lawrence: It's for medical research and cancer research. But we could give it to a church or
any tax-free institution that we wanted to.

Hughes: So it's really unspecified where the donations go?

Lawrence: Well, the smaller foundation is named the Cancer and Medical Research

Foundation. We can give it to any legally classified philanthropic organization,
like a university or a church. You can't give it to any individuals and you can't
use any of the funds yourself. The only expenses that we have with it are the
payment of the income tax thing and keeping track of our records.

Hughes: What is the foundation in San Francisco?

Lawrence: Well, that's called the Cancer and Medical Research Foundation. I'm on the
board. Walter Sullivan, James Bom and I founded it.

Hughes: Is there any difference between the two foundations?

Lawrence: No. Well, the bylaws of that one are somewhat similar to the bylaws of the one I
founded. I've urged my children to support it, and the two doctors do. I get
donations to it and I give to it a little bit every year. I hope it will amount to
something.

The Dormer Foundation started out with a million and a half dollars that
Mr. Dormer gave to found the International Cancer Research Foundation. I
remember when it was founded. He lost his son from cancer of the lung at the age
of about 35 or 36. Now that foundation is worth about $60 million with no
further donations. It's grown because of growth of stocks and so forth. So I'm
hoping that this foundation that I started, that I named after my wonderful wife,

113

will amount to something someday so you can do worthwhile things. We could
give it to scholarships if we wanted to.

Hughes: I have seen reference to the Alpha Omega Foundation.

Lawrence: Yes, well we changed the name. I changed that a few years ago. I started out
with the Alpha Omega Foundation.

Hughes: When you say that you like foundations, are you meaning in contrast to

government support?

Lawrence: Oh yes. I think the government support of research is fine, but I think that we've
got too much government and we've got too much taxes for people. Everybody's
taxed so heavily now. If people would give money away, it's tax exempt, to a
private foundation, I think they're managed a lot better than the government. I
think we have too much government, I really do.

Hughes: I've heard it said that research nowadays is tailored to what is thought to be the

current interest of the federal funding agencies. Consequently, it's not really free
research.

Lawrence: That's a danger. It's not as free as it used to be. I simply believe that the

American way is giving to others and helping important things. I think a lot of
people that have a little extra money should start these little foundations and they
grow. I think it's the American way. I think it's the only country in the world like
it. There are hundreds of these foundations.

For instance, our board gave a couple thousand dollars to the director of
Dormer Laboratory just before I left for the East. One part of it I've been giving
continuously for the Amy Lawrence Endowment Fund which I started about ten
years ago. Then I gave the director $1,000, but I do this every so often, $2-3,000.
I gave $1,000 free to whatever he wanted to do with it. Now that kind of money
is hard to get. It has to be given to the Regents, but then the director of the
Laboratory can use it anyway he wants. He can't buy theater tickets with it, but I
mean in support of research. So I'm looking forward to getting back to a little
more critical thrift in the operation of a government like you do in the operation of
private enterprise. I think research in a place like this is pretty well done and

114

fairly thrifty. And I think that's probably generally true. But of course I'm in
favor of government support for research, too.

Hughes: Well, Dr Lawrence, that's about all I have to ask you. Is there anything that you

would like to add?

Lawrence: No, if you can think of anything else or if I think of anything else, I can call.
Hughes: Yes. Thank you very much.

Lawrence: I only wish we had talked more about research and its results, but your questions
were so often concerned with people and situations, and so we neglected
somewhat the research contributions.

115

APPENDIX
Biographical Materials, John H. Lawrence, M.D. 116

lie

JOHN HUNDALE LAWRENCE
Biography

born ; Canton, South Dakota, January ?•

father ; Carl Gustavus Lawrence

president, Northern Stat3 College, Aberdeen, South Dakota

mother ; Gunda Jacobson Lawrence, housewife (formerly mathematics

teacher)

brother : Ernest Orlando Lawrence, physicist

born: Canton, South Dakota, August 8, 1901
died: Palo Alto, California, August 27, 1958

education ; University of South Dakota, Vermillion, South Dakota

(Major: Chemistry) AB 1926 cum laude ,
Phi Beta Kappa

Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, MD 1930
Top of class, member Alpha Omega Alpha (Phi Beta
Kappa of medicine)

University of South Dakota, D.Sc. honorary, May 2^,
University of Bordeaux, docteur honoris cause,

October 2^, 1958

Catholic University of America, D.Sc. honorary,
June 7, 1959

married

Amy McNear Bowles, June 20, 19^2, San Francisco, California

born: San Francisco, December 1, 1920

granddaughter of Mr. Philip Bowles, former President

of the Board of Regents of the University of California,
donor of Bowles Kail, dormitory for men, UCB

attended University of California at Davis, major in
soils and animal husbandry.

great-grandfather, California cattle pioneer, Henry Miller

children; John Mark, San Francisco, March 16 ,
Amy Sheldon, San Francisco, May 1,
James Bowles, Oakland, June 1, 1952
Steven Ernest, Oakland, February 28, 196!

hobbies ; hunting, fishing, reading, etc.
religion ; protestant (Lutheran, Episcopalian)

addresses ; home: 220 Glorietta Blvd., Or-inda, California 9^563
office: Founder and Director Emeritus and Professor,

Donner Laboratory, UCB, Berkeley 9^720
home telephone: 415-254- 2^8 7
office telephone: 415-642-3591

117

Social Security #578-44-2136

Driver's license (Calif ornia )ZlOl4590

License to practice medicine in California: G-125 (issued 1937)

Drug-narcotics license #3706

Description: 6'0" tall; weight 165$; eyes - blue; hair - gray-brown

Blue Cross - Blue Shield: Group 5-29616 G91-54-0769
CPIC Major Medical 99518

Clubs: Bohemian Club, San Francisco

Pacific Union Club, San Francisco

Faculty Club of the University of California, Berkeley (honor,-

Sierra Club

Principle field: Medical research; nuclear medicine.

118
CURRICULUM VITAE

John H. Lawrence, M.D.

Emeritus Professor of Medical Physics; Director of Donner Laboratory;
Physician-in-Chief of Donner Pavilion; Associate Director of
Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, University of California Berkeley
Now, active member of the Research and Teaching Staff of the Donner
Laboratory and the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, and of th<
University of California.

Graduate and Honorary Degrees:

A.B. cum laude 1926 University of South Dakota

M D 1930 Harvard Medical School

D.'SC. Honorary 1942 University of South Dakota

D.Sc. Honorary 1958 University of Bordeaux

D.Sc. Honorary 1959 Catholic University of America

Awards:

Caldwell Medal, American Roentgen Ray Society, Cincinnati, Ohio, 1941.
Mackenzie Davidson Medal, British Institute of Radiology, London,

Certif^ate^Appreciation, U.S. War and Navy Department, in recognition

of outstanding services to the Armed Forces, Office of Scientific

Research and Development, World War II.
Medal awarded by his Holiness Pope Piux XII in recognition <

Dr. Lawrence's care of Aloysius Cardinal Stepinac in Zagreb,

Yugoslavia, 1953.

Silver Medal of the University of Bordeaux, France, iy>8.
Silver Cross of the Royal Order of the Phoenix, Greece, 1962.
Pasteur Medal, Pasteur Institute, Paris, France, 1963.
Nuclear Pioneer Award, Society of Nuclear Medicine, 1970
Distinguished Scientist Award, Northern and Southern California

Chapters, Society of Nuclear Medicine, 1971.
Marshall Brucer Award (Medal and Lecture) , Arizona Center for

Radiation Oncology Studies, Tucson, Arizona, 1972.
Elected Distinguished Fellow, American College Nuclear Medicine, May,

Judd Award, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, June,

1975 .
The First "John Lawrence Interdisciplinary Symposium," University of

South Dakota, 1979.
Lectureships 1941-1977:

Edwin L. Kretschmer Memorial Lecturer, University of Chicago.

Harrison Stanford Martland Lecturer, New Jersey.

Mackenzie Davidson Memorial Lecturer, British Institute of Radiology,

London, England.

Sigma Xi Annual Lecturer, Stanford University.
Ludwig Kast Memorial Lecturer, New York Academy of Medi ine.
William Henry Welch Lecturer, Mt. Sinai Hospital, New York.

119

CV (continued)
John H. Lawrence, M.D.
Page 2

Lectureships 1941-1977 (continued) ;

Roger Morris Lecturer, Cincinnati Academy of Medicine.

Aaron Brown Memorial Lecturer, Univerrity of Washington, Seattle.

Steven Walter Ranson Memorial Lecturer, Northwestern University, Chicago.

University of Bordeaux Lecturer, Bordeaux, France.

Goodfriend Memorial Lecturer, New York.

Friedberg Memorial Lecturer and Visiting Professor of Medicine,

University of Cincinnati.

Pasteur Lecturer, Pasteur Institute, Paris, France.
Richardson Memorial Lecturer, Massachusetts Genral Hospital.
Bruce K. Wiseman Memorial Lecturer and Visiting Professor of Medicine,

Ohio State University.

Leo G. Rigler Lecturer, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis.
Marshall Brucer Lecture, University of Arizona School of Medicine,

Tucson, Arizona, 1972.
George Von Hevesy Memorial Lecture, Int. Nuclear Medicine Society,

Athens, Greece, 1973.

Sloan-Kettering Inst. Seminar, New York, June 1975.
American Physical Society, Washington, D.C., June 1975.
University of Georgia School of Medicine, May 1976.
University of Munich, November 1976.
Series of Lectures, University of Damascus and University of Alleppo,

Syria, October 1976.
Lecture, Low Level Radiation Conference (dinner speaker), Georgia Tech.,

February 1977.
Panel Member, Course on the Pituitary Gland, Oshsmer Clinic, New Orleans,

March 1977.
Two Invited Lectures, American College of Nuclear Medicine, Los Angeles,

October 1977.
Lecture, Interurban Clinical Club, Vancouver, B.C., October 5-6, 1978.

Services to Outside Institutions and Government Agencies, 1942-1973:

Office of Scientific Research and Development, USAAF, US Navy, and

Manhattan District, National Research Council.
United States Joint Task Force No. 1, Atom Bomb Tests, Bikini, Member of

the Staff, 1946.

Leader of two expeditions to the Peruvian Andes for the study of high-
altitude physiology, using radioisotopes to assess acclimatization,

1950-51.

State of California Radiological Safety Advisory Commission, 1953-56.
U.S. Delegation to Conferences on the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy,

Geneva, 1955; Paris, 1957; and Buenos Aires, 1959.
U.S. Delegate to UNESCO, International Conference on Radioisotopes in

Scientific Research, Paris, 1957.
U.S. Atomic Energy Commission Representative to the Atomic Energy

Establishment, Trombay, India, 1961; also, Visiting Professor, University

of Bombay for one month.
American University of Beirut, Lebanon, Visiting Professor of Medicine,

Middle East Medical Assembly, 1963.

CV (continued) 120

John H. Lawrence, M.D.
Page 3

Services to Outside Institutions and Government Agencies, 1942-1973 (continued):

NASA-STAG, Science and Technology Advisory Committee for Manned Space

Flight, Biomedical Sub- Commit tee Member, 1967.

Committee on Medical Radiation Physics, WHO/IAEA in Geneva, Dec. 1967.
HEW, FDA Radioactive Pharmaceutical Advisory Committee, Chairman,

1968-1971.
Member, Three-Man Medical Exchange Mission to U.S.S.R. , 1974.

Memberships in Scientific Societies;

American Association of Neurological Surgeons (Harvey Gushing Society).

American Clinical and Climatological Association.

American College of Physicians.

American Diabetes Association.

American Medical Association.

American Nuclear Society (made Fellow of ANS)

American Physiological Society.

American Society of Clinical Investigation.

Endocrine Society.

Harvard Medical Alumni Association (President 1945-46; 1962-63).

Western Association of Physicians.

Distinguished Fellow, American College of Nuclear Medicine.

Honorary Memberships:

Phi Beta Kappa

Alpha Omega Alpha

Pacific Interurban Clinical Club

Sociedad Radiological Panemena

Societe Francais de Physique, Biologique et Medical

Society of Nuclear Medicine (Board of Trustees 1962-65; President 1966-67)

Books :

Lawrence, J.H. Polycythemia; Physiology, Diagnosis and Treatment Bases

on 303 Cases. Grune & Stratton, New York, 1955.
Lawrence, J.H., Manowitz, B., and Loeb, B.S. Radioisotopes and Radiation:

Recent Advances in Medicine, Agriculture and Industry. (1 of 4 volumes

prepared under the auspices of the USAEC for the Geneva Conference on

Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy, 1964). McGraw-Hill Book Co., New York,

1964.
Editor. Progress in Nuclear Medicine, Grune & Stratton, New York, Vol. I,

1965; Vol. II, 1968; Vol. Ill, 1971; Vol. IV, 1974; Vol. V, 1978.
Co-editor with C.A. Tobias, J.W. Gofman, and T. Hayes. Advances in

Biological and wedical Physics, Academic Press, Volumes 1-16, ?.948-75.

121

CV (continued)
John H. Lawrence, M.D.
Page 4

Dates and Brief Descriptions of Some of Dr. Lawrence's Research;

1933-37 - Began using x rays and radioisotopes in biology and medicine;

studies in normal and leukemic animals; tumors in animals; metabolic

studies with P-32 in animals and man. Tracer studies in patients.
,1937 - First used P-32 to treat patients with diseases of the blood,
v 1936-37 - With W.O. Nelson and H. Wilson, reported relative radioresistance

of pituitary gland to roentgen radiation.
1935-38 - First biomedical studies with heavy particles with demonstration

of the greater biological effect of the dense tissue ionization in normal

and neoplastic tissues of animals.

Set up radiation protection program in the Radiation Laboratory.
1935-37 - Demonstration of compound (estrogen) that gave some protection

against radiation injury to mice (confirmed 1943) .
1940 - Founded Donner Laboratory with funds provided by the Donner

Foundation and other private sources, dedicated to interdisciplinary

research and to the application of the natural sciences to problems

in Biology and Medicine; also, emphasizing the use of products of atomic

energy (radioactive tracers and new radiations) .
1944 - With C.A. Tobias, F.J.W. Roughton, W.S. Root, and M.I. Gregerson,

first used positron-emitting isotope (C-ll) in breath analysis studies

of oxidation of CO and C02 in the human body.
1946 - With C.A. Tobias, W.F. Loomis, and F.H. Turpin, discovery of

narcotic properties of gas xenon (since used as an anesthetic) .
1949 - With C.A. Tobias, H.B. Jones, and J.G. Hamilton, report of first

use of labeled inert gases in humans.
1952 - With N.I. Berlin, first description and diagnosis of human syndrome

of relative polycythemia, polycythemia of stress.
1954 - With N.I. Berlin, better clarification of the nature of the anemia

occurring with leukemia (by measuring red blood cell life span with

glycine-2-C-14) .
1947-present - Tracer studies in normal and disease states, using various

radioisotopes .
1948-present - Further studies of the special advantages in therapy of the

higher-energy, heavier-charged particles which have led, in association

with his colleagues C.A. Tobias, J.L. Born et_ al^. , to the successful use

of heavy -particle beams in the treatment of several diseases.

Currently, studies continue, concerning the properties of heavy particles
with experiments to determine the optimum particle for use in therapy, and
in the investigational use in treatment of cancer.

BIOGRAPHY John H. Lawrence,

private papers

JOHN HUNSDALE LAWRENCE

From: The Magnet
July, 1970

Dr. John H. Lawrence, pioneer of nuclear medicine and director
of the Donner Laboratory since its establishment in 1936,
was named to the University's Board of Regents by Governor
Ronald Reagan , effective on May 15, 1970.

Dr. Lawrence, brother of the founder of the Lawrence Radiation
Laboratory, Ernest 0. Lawrence, began his career as an instructor
in medicine at Yale University School of Medicine after grad
uating from Harvard Medical School. At Yale, he studied ra
diation and other effects on the pituitary gland with Dr.
Harvey Gushing, and did experiments leading to the discovery
of the first chemicals (estrogens) found to give protection
•against radiation.

He spent the summer of 1935 in Berkeley carrying out the first
bio;nedical studies with the products of the newly developed
cyclotron, and became interested in the possible use of arti-
fically produced radioisotopes and ruclear radiation in medicine.
In 1936 he came to the University of California with the en
couragement of his teacher, Harvey Gushing, v:ho told him, "You
are pioneering in a very exciting new field, which will have a
tremendous impact in medicine. Go to it." Dr. Lawrence founded
the Donner Laboratory, within the University of California's
Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, as the world's first nuclear
medicine laboratory, and it became a major center for direc
ting experimental medicine into new channels, as well as train
ing physicians in atomic medicine by an extensive teaching and
fellowship program. The academic Division of Medical Physics,
housed within the Donner Laboratory, was founded by him and
his associates, Professors Joseph Hamilton, Hardin Jones, and
Cornelius Tobias.

Dr. Lawrence initiated the treatment of human disease with a
radioisotope, phosphorus-32, in 1937. Polycythemia vera was
the first disease to be successfully controlled with radioiso
topes. With colleagues, he was the first to observe the large
effects of neutrons on biological systems, and initiated the
use of accelerator particle beams (neutrons) in the experimental
treatment of cancer in 1939. Using iron-59, discovered by
J.J. Livingood and G.T. Seaborg, in 1939", Er. Lawrence and his
colleagues have, in the intervening years, made a very signifi
cant contribution to the understanding of normal blood meta
bolism and blood disease. He, with Jones and Tobias, disco
vered the narcotic properties of the rare gas xenon, which has
since been used as an anesthetic. For more than a decade, with
his colleague Cornelius Tobias and others, high-energy particle

~2~ 123

other conditions.

In 1955, Lawrence was a Pparefui uses ui H»W^ —

international Conference^the^Peaeeful u^^ ^ ^^

the development

• _

of

Most recently, he has been selected as the Nuclear ^
for 1970 by the Society of ^^^r Medicine Lecture

Jiit»Hu«ar

o

is accorded by the Society SJiit»Hug«ar^J nuciear scientist
Series, in which the wor. . of a "8^^Jn| leader ln some
is presented by a Lecturer who is ^sel^a ^ Meeting in
field of nuclear science. * ^^Srence's career ^as

medical

research at UCLA.

in orlnda" H1E

was

the solution

program of
tinue to take part in me reaca* ^, ,

the Laboratory.

7T

LAWRENCE BERKELEY LABORATORY

Berkeley. Calilornia 94720

Seplember 13, 1991 Vol. 18 No. 33

Seismic ..^.,.

Perlman ftiefTiorjij|B|ge. 3 , .

In Memoriam

Edwin

Mattison

McMillan

7907- 7997

John

Hundale

Lawrence

7904 - 7997

/ijr Lynn Yarris

This p;isi weekend inw ihc passing
nl (wo scientific ginnls wlmse brilliance
lietped lend (his laboratory in its sinned
lame. tclwin Mattison McMillan, Nobel
lanteaic, Ininicr director of I.13L. and
pmlcssor emeritus of physics nl UC
Herke'e;.. -.'icd at 1:30 p.m.. Snt'inhy.
Sept. 7, :ii his (unite in III Ccrrito. He
was X3 years old. Approximately 12
Ixnirs later. John Hundalr l.nwrrncc. a
pioneei in nuclear medicine who estab
lished I.V'J-'s Dt inner Laboratory as Ilie
Miultl <: firsl niick*;u incdii'iiu* ifSi'.iU'li
laUu;iinry. dk'il ;it All:t Dales H<Kpil:il
in llcikeley. Mu \vr.s 87.

McMillnn. who suffered n stroke
sevcrnl years ago, died of complications

McMillan
services

Services fcx Edwin McMHInn
will lie held Saiimby, Scpi. 14. al
7 p.m., in UK UC Ucikclcy Px-
ulty Club.

An Edwin M. McMillnn Schol
arship fund has been eslnblislKd
wiih UK UC Berkeley Foundniion.
Persons wishing to contribute
should anitnci UK UC Berkeley
Development Office. 2440
B.ini-riifi Wiy, Berkeley. Cnlif..
94720. The phone number is
642-1212.

from diabetes. Lawrence died from o stroke suffered two
weeks ngo.

McMillnn shared Ihc 1951 Not*! Prize in Chemistry wiih
Glenn Senboig os il»e co-discoverers of plutonium. He became
LBL's director in 1958 after the death of ((Hinder Ernest Or
lando Lawrence. John Lnvicnce's hrotlwr. McMillan headed
UK Lnh for 15 ycnrs, until his rcliiemcnt in 1973.

Mine th:in nm«i ciMUcinmimry scirniKis. McMillan fil ihe
classical piofilc of a "natural scientist." Though he wnn (he
Nolwl Prize in cl>cniislry, he was trained as a physicist and
Inter developed the concept of "phase stability." which over
came Ihe energy limitations of cyclotrons and made possible
today's giant particle accelcralni*. Pot this woik. lie shared the
196.1 Atoms foi Peace Pli7.c wiih Soviet physicisl Vl;nlimit
Vckslci. In 1990. IK: wtis nwnidnl UK- N;nion:il Medal of Sci
ence. I!K nation's highcsi award for scientific achievement.

When (old of McMillan's death. Seabotg said. "I hnvc
known Ed McMillan as a friend and colleague since 1934. His
itnpoitant and versatile sctcniific contribution* spanning phys
ics, cltemislry. ami engiucciing. nnd his great htimtm (|tialities.
foi in an tmponanl chapter in lite history of science."

McMillan was born in Redondo Bench. Calif., and grew up
in Pasadena. As a ynungstet, be was a builder of gadgets, such
as high frequency coils. He also developed :m interest in min
erals niKl rocks (hat would last Ihrnughnul his life.

McMilli.in earned his baclxrlor's nnd master's degrees nl llw
California Institute of Technology, where his interest in chem
istry led him to take more courses in this subject than is usual
for a physicist. He received his doctorntc fiom Princeton Uni
versity doing research wiih molecular beams.

Drawn by Ernest Lawrence's invention of I!K cyclotron.
McMillan cnmc lo Berkeley from Princeton, eventually joining
lite staff of Uiwrence's laboratory and ihc faculty of the UCH
Physics Department. His contributions were significant from
the start — he made the first substantial verification of Ihe
imporinni theory dial gamma rnys. upon striking n nucleus.

{(.'tmnnucd tm i*tgr 2}

McMillan recreates Ihc icarch for neptunium •( the
time of Ihc announcement of the dlsrorcrj,
JuneS, 1940.

125

five rise 10 a pair of electrons, one posi
tive and one negative.

In 1934. McMillan and M Stanley
Livingston discovered oxygen- 15, and
in 1940. he and Samuel Ruben discov
ered beryllium- 10. Using UK 60-inch
cyclotron to study fission in uranium.
McMillan and Philip Abelson discov
ered element 93, neptunium, the first
substance beyond the 92 naturally oc
curring elements.

McMillan also found evidence sug
gesting UK existence of still another ele
ment, but before he could complete his
research, he was called away by World
War II. A team lead by Seaborg com
pleted the work with the discovery of
element 94, pluionium.

During Ihe war, McMillan did re
search on radar at Ihe Massachusetts In
stitute of Technology, on sonar at the
U.S Navy Radio and Sound Laboratory
in San Diego, and on Ihe atomic bomb
al Los Alamos with J. Robert
Oppenheimer.

After Ihe war, McMillan turned his
attention back to accelerator research.
He focused on the crucial problem that
when particles are accelerated numer
ous limes al very high energies, they
fall out of step with Ihe accelerating
pulses.

In June of 1945, he came up with a
solution — an accelerator in which par
ticles are locked in step with the accel
erating pulses, making it feasible to ac
celerate them virtually any number of
times. McMillan coined Ihe term "syn
chrotron" for this new type of accelera
tor. Synchrotrons are now the standard
instrument of high-energy physics re
search.

McMillan was a capable and well-
liked director, described by colleagues
as t modest man of uncharacteristic

. (Continued from page '

calm and wit. He was an avid hiker,
camper, and mountain climber — he
scaled Ml Whitney and Ihe Maiierhorn
as a younger man. He also enjoyed gar
dening, and was especially fond of or
chids

Said McMillan's son. Slcplien: "He
was an explorer. He wasn't looking at
what was known, but what wasn't."

McMillan is survived by his wife,
Ihe former Elsie W. Blumer, whom he
married on June 7, 1941; his three chil
dren, Anne Chaikin of Bellingham,
Wash., David McMillan, of Anacortes.
Wash., and Stephen McMillan, of El
Cerrito. Calif.; and by three grandchil
dren.

John Lawrence was bom in Canton,
S. D., four years afler Ernest. The Law
rence brothers grew up in a family that
valued academics Their mother was a
mailicnutics leaclKr, ilKir father taught
Latin. Afler graduating from Harvard
Medical School. Dr. Lawrence taught
medicine al Yale and studied Ihe effects
of radiation on the pituitary gland. With
Dr. Harvey Cushing, he identified estro
gen as the first chemicnl found lo give
protection against radiation.

In 1935. John Lawrence joined
Ernest in Berkeley and carried out the
first biomedical studies with the prod
ucts of Ernest's newly developed cyclo
tron. Al that lime, he became interested
in Ihe possible use of artificially pro
duced radioisoiopes and nuclear radia
tion in medicine. With Dr. Paul
Aebersold. he made the discovery that
neutrons had a destructive effect on liv
ing tissue and thai UK damage was five
limes more than thai caused by an
equivalent dose of x-rays.

In 1936. Dr. Lawrence founded the
Donner Laboratory within Ihe Lawrence
Berkeley Laboratory (then called Ihe

Young John Lawrence contemplates • probtetn In 193&

John (lop) and his brother, Ernest Lawrence, consult ni Ihe controls of UK 60-
inch c vein Iron hi 1939.

UC Radiation Laboratory). It quickly
became a major center for directing ex
perimental medicine inlo new channels.
as well as for training physicians in
atomic medicine. Whai is now LBL's
Research Medicine and Radiation Bio
physics Division got its start under Dr.
Lawience «s well, in 1*44, UCB estab
lished a division of medical physics
within the Physics' Department, It was
led by Dr. Lawrence and his associates,
Professors Joseph Hamilton, Hardin
Jones, and Cornelius Tobias.

Scientist-historian William G. Myers
has called Dr. Lawrence the "true father
of radiopharmaceulicals." The field be
gan, Myers says, in 1937 when Dr.
Lawrence used the radioisoiope phos
phorus- 32 lo successfully treat
polycylhemia vera.

In 1939, Dr. Lawrence initialed Ihe
use of accelerator particle beams (neu
trons) in the experimental ireatmenl of
cancer. The same year, using iron-59.
IK and his colleagues made significant
contributions to UK understanding of
normal blood metabolism and blood
disease. Wilh Jones and Tobias, he dis
covered Ihe narcotic properties of the
rare gas xenon, which has since been
used as an anestlKtic. Later, he used
beams from Ihe 184-inch cyclotron lo
successfully (real acromegaly,
Cushing's disease, and several other
conditions.

Dr. Lawrence's many honors include
Ihe 1983 Enrico Fermi Award, pre

sented by Ihe U.S. Department of En
ergy for hit "pioneering work and con
tinning leadership in nuclear medicine.''
In 1970, the Society of Nuclear Medi
cine recognized him for "a lifetime of
accomplishment'

Dr. Lawrence retired from Donner in •
IV69. and the following year was ap
pointed a Regent of the University of
California by then-governor Ronald
Reagan. He served until 1983. He w«j
president of the Society of Nuclear
Medicine in 1966-67.

When once asked which of all his
achievements he was most proud. Dr.
Lawrence answered: "I think that the •
opportunities we've made available for
young doctors — Ph.Da and M.Dj —
to work in the field of atomic energy in
biology and medicine, that's our most
important contribution. We've trained a
lot of good people and now they ire
training the next generation."

Dr. Lawrence's wife, the former
Amy Bowles, died in 1967. He is sur
vived by four children. Dr. John Mark
Lawrence, of Long Beach. Calif.; Amy
Sheldon De Rouvray, of Paris, France;
Dr. James Lawrence, of Alamo, Calif.,
and Steven Lawrence, of the San Fran
cisco Bay Area.

Funeral services for Dr. Lawrence
were held Wednesday. Sept. 1 1. at St.
Peter's Episcopal Church in Oakland.

Memorial contributions should be
made to the John and Amy Bowles
Lawrence Cancer and Medical Research
Foundation in Berkeley.

Janus ry 20. 196A

I>?an William B. Fritter
College of Letter* and Science-
224 Sprcu

correspondence, John H. Lawrence
private papers

BE: Promotion of Dr. John Lavrence
Professor Step V

to

Dea Dean Frcttcrt

I am submitting Co you eowe data op the acadaaic activities of
Prof. John H. Lawrence la support of ray request that his salary te increased
to Step T.

John Lavrenc* a* a medical research «an ha» early recognised
the impact of phyaica* science on tba future of aadtciae and h« bu worked
IB his entire career to foStsr nodical reeearcb with the tooiS of physic*,
particularly nuclear physics. As Director of the Donne v Laboratory, his
influence uss sod Is Important sine* the bast a*dicaj schools ia th* world
have sent their representatives here for postgraduate training aad the exist-
ence of the laboratory here is a factor n»t only in the acceptance of
quantitative techniques in a»dicia* but la the Bodcraioatioa of a nuafeer of
nwdtcal schools aad ewdieal reaeareh unite. THe acceptance of Dr. John
Lawrence's preeminence in the field is indicated by the lectures and public
foruos he is ssked to participate in. Bis graduate ceuree, Medieal Phyaica
225 (which he deliver* la cooperation with Dra. loaaathai and Parker) 1*
acknowledged as on* of the finest aaca offerings in the world, tach year a
nuaiber of physicians aad other research a*n of high caiibre seek te COSM here
to Berkeley to vork i» eollak-oratio* with or waaer the direction of John
Lawrence, naay of them on oat tonal or international fellovshlpa. I am encloaing
a liat of M.D. » at Daoaer Laboratory la 19*1 -63 a*4 1M3-64 for col labor-
at ion, postgraduate tralalag aad experience or for aa advaaead degree. Ju*t
•ent tuning two names from this year's visitors, they include Prof. Frederick
Rjobbins, Hobel Laureate fro* Western Reserve Unlveraity who is cpoadiag hi*
sabbatical year here aad Dr. John Loraine, Director of the Boraoae 3e search
Laboratory at the University of Edinburgh, aa international expert on horaene
physiology aad bioeheadatry who will deliver a graduate course.

Lcwreaee'* ro**area activities include a study of the aechani**)*
in heatopoei*** in aonail individual* aad la disease, clinical application*
of high energy particle ii>aaa to vsriou* faraa of disease aad the aeehaaia*
of this action, aad the study of red let lorn action aa esc it as twsor* in Lab
oratory aaiaal*. Xa the first field we sbeuld meatiest rafanMe* X and 7
concern inf a kuaoral factor "erythropoietU^ . Varkiag with Van Dyke, it waa
recognized for the first tin* that hjaaaa patients with aplaatl* aneaii* carry
a great anal «f the suhsiamce •ryiarwpcietis la their aria*. Th* first
prepaiatlaaa were aaa* sere aad tb* laboratory la * center far studiea of the
of actiew aad nature af erythropoiet U. Xa reierejkce 7 tka substance wa*

- 2 - 127

adainUterta Co buoaaa. With Wiacheli (13), Lawreac« app; i«d «n iactopc
technique, the u»e of rac;c Yttriua fcr selective irradiation of lymphatic
tissiwsc prior to bone narrow tranafuaioa.

John Lawrence la beading the qn>dical progran which ia concerned
with the therapeutic aaacsameat of high energy proton* and alpha particlea.
So far the following dlaeaae c^aaaea have been tevtedi oetaatatic najanary
carcinoma, malignant diabetes aelitus, nalignant exophthalaaua, acroncgaly
and Gushing' e diaeaae, (refereneea 9,10,11,16,17 and 20). Malignant dlabetea
nellitus ia an advanced for* of thia dieeaae which reaults in blindneaa dot
tc retinal hanorthagaa and eventual death froai nephroaia of the kidney.
Reaulta achieved with the high energy beae* natch favorably with theee from
any other technique. A relatively low doae irradiation reaulta in reduced
rfcquire«*ot» of inaulin and in eon* caaaa arreat of the retinal be*K>rrhag«a.
Thla Method opened uj> the field a>f honaoaal control of inaulia production tc
investigation. In aeroaagaly the aathod can be uaed even after evrgery and
other radiation nethoda fall and the reaulta appear to b* gratifying. In
collaboration with Trot. Li tha demonstration of abnomailly high huaea growth
hor*ooa lave la ia aeronagalic patiaatta haeaaw poaaibla. It waa aia«
atratad that pituitary irradiation eauaaa a dacraaae in the circulating
growth banKma lavel (w«*wbliah«d). In Cuahing'a o !••*«• aarf la Malignant
exopthalana there are alao good therapeutic raaulta. In aauanmry eancar a
nunbor of dranatic regreaaioaa wara faund( howewar, it baa boon ahown by
Lawreace and athera (raferanca i) that taataaterona ia eonvartod to eatrrgena
even ia hypophyaactaatiaod huoana and aMtaatatic laaiona aaually return even
affcar proloagad parlaoa with ragraaaian of the cancara. lafaranca 18 containa
praliniaary raporta of a atv4y of tha affa«ta of heavily iaolaiag radiationa
on noeplaetic oalla fro* amtaa aacitaa la*ake*i«. Lawranoa ia particularly
intareatod in the ae-eallod oxygon afteat. Maoplaatic tiaauaa uaually grow
faatar in the ragiona whara the oeila ghonaelvaa an anoxie. Ordinary radi-
/ ation ia not aa cffeativa on anoxie ealla aa on oxygenatod onoa whareaa in
\/ refaranca 16 Lawranaaat. al. aenonatrata that heavy iona affact the oxygenated
and anarobic parta of aacitaa twaa»r oalla to an approximate ly eeual dagroe.

The raooanltion of the radiation nathoda davalopod h«re in Berk
eley ia apparaat free the fact that enuring the laat two year* Harvard Uoi-
veraity and Caaeridga harva dadiaatad their cyclotron to aimilar work under
a neuroaurgaon, ?rof. William Sweat and the Unive ratty of Uppsala in Sweden
under Frof . Svadberg ia worming on biaan>diea> apoliaationa identical with our

Currently John Lawranaa ia preaidant of the Harvard Madical
Alwaaii Aaeociatioa, an tvanpla of tha high regard in which hia colleagues
and alaa natar hold hi*, fa 1941 ha racaivod the Silver Croaa of the Royal
Ordar of tha Phoenix ia Oraaco an4 in IttJ tha Medical of tha Paateur Inatitvte.
Beta af these ware glvea far hia pi ana a ring afforta to introduce the uaa of
radioactive iaotapaa into Vaaia «e-dio»i raaoareh and for hia atudiaa oa nuc
lear radiationa. Is ia elaarljr asia of th« foremost internationally knevn rap-
raaontativaa of tha Oaiveraity.

thia aalary isMUcaaUM froai Step XV to Step V.

Sincerely yxwra.

Comaliua A. Tebia.

yioe-ChairMaa In Charge af
Mftdioal Phyeica

foge l— coniro LOMO limes

aunooy, Jon. /, iv/a

RESIDENTS SERVING CALIFORNIA

Physician Serves On
UC Board Oi Regents

DR. JOHN LAWRENCE

...Helps education

By SUSAN SHOEMAKER

(Education Writer)
"It's probably the most
powerful board you can imag
ine . H has complete responsi
bility for the governance of
the university."'

That's Dr. John Lawrence
of Orinda speaking, and the
board he's describing is the
University of California's
Board of Regents, of which
he is a member.

One of the most recently
appointed regents. Dr. Law
rence began his 16-year term
in 1970, when he was named
to the board by Governor
Reagan. Although he had
never met the governor at
the time of his appointment,
Dr. Lawrence has some theo
ries as to why he was chosen.
J"l'm a physician, and the
governor thought it would be
a good idea to have one on
the board," he explains.
-And he also knew I was out
spoken and a person of integ
rity , with no axe to grind."

Dr. Lawrence says he ac
cepted the appointment "not
for the honor, but because 1
wanted to contribute some
thing to the university. And
I'm also interested in seeing
the university strongly led by
a great administration and
faculty.

"It's also interesting being
associated with this group of
very able men," he added.
"We have differences, but on
important questions we come
right up almost unanimously.
We're commonly interested in

the welfare of a great institu
tion."

There has been some argu
ment in recent years that the
university may cease to be
great if its funding does not
increase, but according to Dr.
Lawrence, the financial situa
tion is not as desperate as
some people think.

"With inflation, everyone's
short of funds," he explains,
"and there are so many
things, like welfare and hous
ing, that society needs to
have done beside education.
It's not whether you're for
support, it's whether you can
get it.

"As president, I suppose
Charles Hitch has to take the
view that we need more mon
ey, and I suppose we do. but
belt tightening is not without
some advantages," he says.
/••I'm a realist, and I think
'"sometimes Hitch is not. After
all, the state has enormous
financial problems. We can't
do everything we want to do,
but it is terribly important
that the university get enough
support that it doesn't go
downhill.

"I think we're still quite
competitive and still perhaps
the leading state university,"
he added. "Even though
we're tight, we're still viable,
and we're hoping time will
get better. We've still got a
great university."

Much of the criticism on
funding has been directed at
the governor, but Dr. Law
rence says Reagan is "one of

the most" able, solid, respected
and articulate regents.

"The press seems to give
the idea that the governor is
against the university, and
this isn't true," Dr. Lawrence
•stresses. "He's a great be-
never in the university and •
supporter of education, but he
has the whole state to consi
der."

The Board of Regents most
important job, in Dr. Law
rence's opinion, is selecting
the university president and
chancellors for the nine UC
campuses. "The board should
get advice from the faculty,
but make the final decision
themselves," he says. "After
all, the actual running of the
university is really in the
hands of the president and
chancellors."

But in many other areas,
he says, the board has dele
gated a great deal of its au
thority. Speaking again of the
regents' great potential pow
er, he says, "It could be a
very dictatorial board, but
it's not. Over many years it
has delegated more and more
.of its responsibility to the
administration and faculty.
It's only right that the faculty
should have control over
courses and the teaching of
courses," he explains.

Although he has only been
a regent for two years, Dr.
Lawrence has been associat
ed with the university for
many more years. After
graduating from Harvard
Medical School and teaching
for a while at Yale Medical
School, he came to California
and. joined the faculty at
Berkeley.

He was « pnme mover \n
raising funds to buiW I Cal s
Donner Laboratory and De
velop there the new field of
nuclear medicine, based on
the use of atomic energy
products in research, diagno

sis and treatment of disease.
When his own department

began to feel the
£e tightened bete. Dr.

doing the Mime wotk I
to do." including rtse»n*
^vising student!, and wo*
teaching.

.

Dr. Lawrence admta
tt takes • while to-Jeun thj
wTrf regent, but adds that
£ long action .wUMh.
university made thu i to*
considerably «si«;l*«*»
the regents meet

cine.

A longtime resident of Orl»
da. Dr. Lawrence say* »»
when he had more free Umt
he enjoyed horseback ndra|
near his home, and was In
volved in some Orinda school
district activities.

He is the father of fan
children, three grown and OOB
still attending Onnda » Gto-
rietta Elementary School.

129 John H. Lawrence, private "papers

T)r. John U. Lawrence* ^ratUintod from the Univ -rrlty of
Soutli Bcil:otn. r.nd the IIarvr.ru Jr;iv-.r-r::l ty Nodical 5 -els. Ai'tcr
tr^inin^ for foxsr years r.v. t?;e ,v. l;cr i:ent liiii^lic'n ..or; i<:nl in
Boston, the Strong llcwsorial Hospital in Rochester, l«rov York
and. the Now Haven Hospital, he joined the Faculty in Internal
Medicine at Yale University. Ills early work after craduiiion
froiii Harvard was in the laboratory of Dr. Harvey Cu shins on
tho Pituitary Gland, and where ho studied many patients with
Cushin^s Disease and Acro:nc^aly (Pituitary Tumor) At Yale ho
be^an working on the Biologic effects of Radiation and studied-
tho induction of leukemia in mice receiving relatively largo
doses of radiation. lie also discovered the first (dru£ or
chemical) estrogen -which cave animals some protection from
radiation damage. In Doston and at Yale ho bec^-n having rauch
experience in tho uss of conventional radiation in treating
various pituitary conditions with limited success. /

After three years on tlic Faculty tit Yale - in teaching
and research - ho worked half tine at Yale and half tine in
Berkeley at the Radiation Laboratory doing pionoer work on tho
first use of radio-active isotopes and on tho Biologic effect
of heavy ions (neutrons) , laying the .basis for tho first
radiation protection program in the atomic a^o • During tliis
period and also later he v;as in close association with his
physicist brother, Ernest 0. Lawrence.

ri

!Io soon developed a croup of associates in the Donncr
Laboratory (irfiich he founded) working \*itlx isotope?; and t.je
now radiations and as an outer ovth of the x</ork therr developed
an academic division of tho University - the Division of nodical
Physics.

his other contributions arc the training of dozens
of medical scientists now distributed throughout tho world;
the successful treatment of P.Vcra, the first concH<li6n to bo
successfully treated with radioactivity} with his associates
the discovery of the anesthetic properties of tiic noble gas
Xenon? many contributions to the measurement of red coll
production and destruction aided by isotopes; and the treatment
successfully of two pituitary diseases, Cushin^s Disease and
Actonc^aiy.

iic is nov: active ac i'rofessor cf Medical Physics lincritus;
Director Emeritus of the Donner Laboratory; in P.oseach v/ith
Heavy ^'articles; participates in Hedicr.l anc" Scientific Tlcotin^s
in ana out of th-o U.S.A.; also is a member of the L'xiard of
of t'.ic University of California.

130

1 «-••;-..
JOHN H. LAWRENCE, M.D./-~ -,. .

/ -4-r "

Pepei/s j^r-)/_ ,/ f.j> Zfte-**.

List of Published

32- 1 Lawrence, John K. and Dial, Donald E. (i7it»«tJuc^d by Harvey

Gushing): Effects of int rsvent ricular injections of pitu-

trin and pilocc.rpine in dogs.

Pfoc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 30; 49-54, 1932.

34- 1 Lawrence, Joh H. and Strauss, -Maurice J.: Dermatitis due

to potassium mercuric iodide.

Arch. Dermatology and Syphilology 30; 76-79, 1934.

35- 1 Lawrence, John H. and Zimmerman, H.M. : Pituitary basophilism

report of a case.

Arch. Internal Med. -55; 745-759, 1935.

35- 2 Lawrence, John H. The clinical symptoms and signs of dis

secting aneurysm of the aorta; with report of a case

diagnosed during life.

International Clinics 2.: 122-133, 1935.

i!

36- 1 Lawrence, John H. and Lawrence, Ernest O. : The biological

action of neutron rays.

Proc. Natl. Academv of Sciences 22; 124-133, 1936.

•

y36- 2. Lawrence, John H. , Aebersold, Paul C., and Lawrence, Ernest O. :
Comparative effects of X rays and neutrons on normal and
tumor tissue.
Prcc. Natl. Academy of sciences 22: 543-557, 1936.

•.

37- 1 Lawrence, John H.: Artificial radioactivity and neutron

rays in biology and medicine.

Yale J. Biol. and Med. 9: 429-435, 1937.

37- 2 Lawrence, John H. , Aebersold, Paul C., and Lawrence, Ernest O.
The comparative effects of neutrons and X rays on normal and
necplastic tissue.

Amer. Asscc. Advancement of Science, Occasional Publications
No. 4, pp 215-219, June, 1937.

|k 37- 3 Lawrence, John H. , Nelson, Warren 0. , "and Wilson, Hugh.
Roentgen irradiation of the hypophysis.
Radiology .29: 446-454, 1937.

37- 4 Lawrence, John H. and Tcnns'nt , Robert: The comparative effects
of neutrons and X rays on the whole body.
J. Exptl. Med. 66: 667-688, ?.937.

37- 5 Lawrence, John H. , Horn, Robert and Strong, L.C. : Radiation
studies on a mammary carcinoma of mice.
Yale J. Biol. end Med. 10; 145-154, 1937.

131

puonsned papers
Page 2.

38- 1 Lawrence, John H.: Artificial radioactivity and neutron rays
in biology and medicine.

pp 1-18 in Handbook of Physical Therapy, A.M. A. Council on
Physical Therapy, Chicago, Illinois, 1938.

38- 2 Lawrence, John H. and Gardner, William U. A transmissible

leukemia in the "A" strain of mice.
Amer. J. Cancer 33.: 112-119, 1938.

39- 1 Jones, Hardin B., Chaikoff, I.L., and Lawrence, J.H. Radioactive

phosphorus as an indicator of phospholipid metabolism.
VI. The phospholipid metabolism of neoplastic tissues (mam
mary carcinoma, lymphoma , lymphosarcoma , sarcoma 180).
J. Biol. Chem. 128; 631-644, 1939.

39- 2 Lawrence, John H. and Scott, Kenneth G. : Comparative metabolism
of phosphorus in normal and lymphomatous animals.
Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. and Med. 40: 694-696, 1939.

39- 3 Tuttle, Lawrence W. , Scott, K.G., and Lawrence, J.H.: Phosphorus
metabolism in leukemic blood.
Proceedings Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 41; 20-25, 1939. i$k>

39- 4 Anderson, Evelyn, Lawrence, John 'H. , Joseph, Michael, and

Aebersold, Paul C.: Increased sensitivity of hypophysec-
tomized rats to radiation.
Science 89(2321) ; 588-589, 1939.

39- 5 Lawrence, John H. : ARtificial radioactivity and neutron rays
in medicine .
Pacific Coast Med. .6: 32-33, 1939. M^S

39- 6 Lawrence, John H. , Scott, K.G. , and Tuttle, L.W. : STudies on

leukemia with the aid of radioactive phosphorus. k^>

New Interntl. Clinics 3_ (series 2): 33-58, 1939 (Lippin-
cott, New York).

40- 1 Lawrence, John H. Some biological applications of neutrons

and artificial radioactivity.
Nature 145 (3665) : 125-127, 1940.

40- 2 Lawrence, John H. : Communication: -to Chauncey D. Leake, .'.
January. 8, 1940. -— n & «*t- - r <i "

Annals Hist. Med., October 1940. ^ ^ ^^ ~O

40- 3 Lawrence, John H., Tuttle, L.W. , Scott, K.G., and Connor, C.L.:
Studies on neoplasms with the aid of radioactive phosphorus.
I. The total phosphorus metabolism of normal and leukemic mice.
J. Clin. Invest. 19: 267-271, 1940.

132

'40- 4 Jones, H.B., Chaikoff, I.L. , and Lawrence, J.H.: Radioactive
phosphorus as an indicator of phospholipid metabolism.
X. The phospholipid turnover of fraternal toners.
J. Biol. Chem. 133: 319-327, 1940.

40- 5 Lawrence, J.H. Nuclear physics and therapy; preliminary

report on a new method for the treatment of leukemia and

polycythemia.

Radiology .35: 51-59, 1940.

40- 6 Stone, Robert S., Lawrence, John H. , and Aebersold, Paul D.:
A preliminary report on the use of fast neutrons in the
treatment of malignant disease.
Radiology^: 322-327, 1940.

40- 7 Jones, H.B., Chaikoff, I.L. , and Lawrence, J.H.: Phosphorus

metabolism of the soft tissues of the normal mouse as indi
cated by radioactive phosphorus.
Amer. J. Cancer 40; 235-242, 1940.

40- 8 Jones, H.B., Chaikoff, I.L., and Lawrence, J.H. Phosphorus
metabolism of neoplastic tissues (mammary carcinoma,
lymphoma , lymphosarcoma) as indicated by radioactive phosphorus
Amer. J. Cancer 40: 243-250, 1940.

41- 1 Tuttle, L.W. , Erf, L.A. and Lawrence, J.H.: Studies on

neoplasms with the aid of radioactive phosphorus. II. The
phosphorus metabolism of nucleoprote in , phospholipid and ;
acid soluble fractions of normal and leukemic mice.
J. Clin. Invest. 20: 57-61, 1941.

41- 2 Erf, L.A. and Lawrence, J.H.: Phosphorus metabolism in
neoplastic tissue.
Proc. Soc. Exptl. Eiol. Med. 46; 694-695, 1941.

41- 3 Scott, K.G. and Lawrence, J.H. Effect of radiophosphorus on
blood of monkeys.
Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 48: 155-158, 1941.

41- 4 Lawrence, J.H.: Medical applications of neutron rays and
Artificial radioactivity.

pp 12-23 (Chapt . 2) in Practitioners Library of Medicine,
George Blumer, Editor, Yale Univ. Press, New Haven, 1941.

A41- 5 Lawrence, J.H.-, ERf, L.A., and Tuttle ,_ L.W. : Intracellular
irradiation. Abstracts from che Conference on Applied
Nuclear Physics, Cambridge , Mass ., Oct. 28 to Nov. 2, 1940.
J. Applied Physics 12: 333-334, 1941. (Abstract)

A.41- 6 Lawrence, J.H., Hamilton, J.G., Erf, L.A., and Pecher, C.:
Recent advances in clinical medicine with the aid of
artificially prepared radioactive isotopes. Proceedings
of the thirty-third annual meeting A'iSociety Clin. Invest.
J. Clin. Invest. 20; 436, 1941. (Abstract)

41- 7

133

Axelrod, Dorothy, Aebersold, Paul C., and Lawrence, John H. :
Comparative effects of neutrons and X rays on three tumors
irradiated in vitro.
Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 48: 251-256, 1941.

41- 8

Erf, L.A. and Lawrence, J.H.
of radiophosphorus . III.
of radiophosphorus in the
its therapeutic effect on

41- 9

Ann. Internal Med. JJ>: 276-290, 1941.

Erf, L.A., Tuttle, L.W. and Lawrence, J.H.:
with the aid of radiophosphorus. IV. The
the excretion and the therapeutic effect
on patients with leukemia .
Ann. Internal Med. 15;~4"87-543, 1941.

Clinical studies with the aid
The absorption and distribution
blood of, its excretion by, and
patients with polycythemia .

Clinical studies
retention in blood,
of radiophosphorus

41-10 Erf, L.A. and Lawrence, J.H. Clinical studies with the aid of
radiophosphorus. I. The absorption and distribution of
radiophosphorus in the blood and its excretion by normal
individuals and patients with leukemia .
J. Clin. Invest. 2JD: 567-575, 1941.

41-11 Tuttle, L.A., Erf, L.A., and Lawrence, J.H.:: Studies on

neoplasms with the aid of radioactive phosphorus. III. The

phosphorus metabolism of the phospholipid , acid soluble and

nucleoprotein fractions of various tissues of normal and

leukemic mice following the administration of "tracer" and
"therapeut ic" doses of radiophosphorus.
J. Clin. Invest. 20: 577-581, 1941.

42- 1 Lawrence, John H. : Observations on the Nature and treatment
of leukemia and allied diseases.

Edwin R. Kretschmer Memorial Lecture, Institute of Medicine,
Chicago, November 11, 1941.
Institute of Med. of Chicago, Proceedings 14; 39-49, 1942.

42- 2 Aebersold, Paul C. and Lawrence, John H. : The physiological
effects of neutron rays.

pp 25-48 in Annual Review of Physiology IV, Annual Reviews,
Inc., Stanford, California, 1942.

42- 3 Lawrence, John H. : The new nuclear physics and medicine.
The Caldwell Lecture, American Roentgen Ray Society,
Cincinnati, September 1941.
Amer. J. Roentgenol. , RAd.Ther. 48; 283-301, 1942.

42- 4 Newell, R.R., Falconer, Ernest H. , Hill, H.P., Lawrence, J.H.
Wood, David A., and Wyckoff, Harry: Panel discussion on
the leukemias and lymphoblastomas .
Radiology 39; 298-305, 1942.

134

Page b.

42- 5 Treadwell, Anne G., Low-Beer, B.V.A., Friedell, H.L.
Lawrence, J.H.: Metabolic studies on neoplacrn of
with the aid of radioactive strontium.
Amer. J. Med . Sciences 204; 521-530, 1942.

and
bone

A42- 6 Hamilton, Joseph G. and Lawrence, John H. : Recent clinical

developments in the therapeutic application of raciophos-
phorus and radioiodine. Proceedings of the thirty-fourth
annual meet ing//;, Society of Clinical Investigation.
J. Clin. Invest. 21: 624, 1942. (Abstract)

42- 7 Low-Beer, Bertram V.A., Lawrence, John H. , and Stone, Robert S.:
The therapeutic use of artificially produced radioactive
substances; rad iophosphorus , radiostront ium, radioiodine, with
special reference to leukemia and allied diseases.
Radiology 39: 573-579, 1942.

R42- 8 Jones, H.B., Smith, R. , Sears, N. , Wu, C., Larkin, J. , French, R.,
Hamilton, J.G., and Lawrence, J.H. The uptake of inspired
radioactive argon: a method of determining the effi.ciency of
inert gas exchange in man.
Committee on Aviation Medicine (CAM) Report 51, May 29, 1942.

43- .1 Treadwell, Anne G., Gardner, W.U. , and Lawrence, John H. :

Effect of combining estrogen with lethal doses of Roentgen-
ray in Swiss mice.
Endocrinology 32: 161-164, 1943.

44- 1 Lawrence, J.H. : Aviation medical problems, with special
reference to altitude pain..

Naffizer Number of the J. Nervous and Mental Disease 99;
703-711, 1944.

44- 2 "Cook, Sherburne F., Williams, O.L., Lyons, W.R., and Lawrence,
John H. : A comparison of altitude and exercise with respect
to decompression sickness.
War Medicine 6.: -182-187, 1944.

44- 3 Bridge, Ezra V., Henry, Franklin M. , Cook, Sherburne. F ., Williams,
Owen L. , Lyons, William R. , and Lawrence, John H. Decom
pression sickness: nature and incidence of symptoms during and
after artificial decompression to 38,000 feet for ninety
minutes with exercise during exposure.
J. Aviation Med. 15: 316-327, 1944.

44- 4 Tobias, Cornelius A., Lyons, William R. , Williams, Owen L. ,
Bridge, Ezra V., Lawrence, John H. , Helmholz, H.F.,Jr., and
Sweeney, A.R., Jr.: Study of bends; a comparison in low-
pressure chamber and actual flight.
Air Surgeon's Bull. _1: 9-10, 1944.

135

44- 5 Henry, F.M., Lawrence, J.H., Bridge, E.V., and Williams, O.L.:
Protective effects of pre-oxygenat ion on abdominal gas pain
results of a study of preflight breathing of oxygen on pain
resulting from decompression to 38:,.000 feet.
War Medicine _6: 395-397, 1944.

45- 1 Bridge, E.V., Henry, F.M., Williams, O.L., and Lawrence, J.H.
"Chokes"; a respiratory manifestation of aeroembolism in
high altitude flying.
Ann. Internal Med. 22; 398-407, 1945.

45- 2 Lawrence, John H. and Lund, Douglas W. ; Two severe altitude
flight reactions.

United States Navy Department BUMed News Letter, Aviation
Supplement 4 (7) : 3-5, 1945.

45- 3 Bridge, E.V., Henry, F.M., and Lawrence, J.H.: Observations of
multiple joint pains in the extremities at 38,000 feet.
J. Nervous and Mental Disease 101: 583-588, 1945.

45- 4 Lawrence, John H.-t Communication to the Editor, August 17,1945.
J. Amer. Med. A$soc. 129: 91, 1945.

45- 5 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Lyons, W.R., Helmholz, H.F.,Jr.,
and Sweeney, A.R.,Jr., (with the flight assistance of Bridge,
E.V. and Williams, O.L.): A study of aeromedical problems
in a Liberatof bomber at high altitude.
J. Aviation Med. 16: 286-310, 1945.

45- 6 Lawrence, J.H. and Tobias, C.A. Is CO oxidized to C0_ in
the human body?
Air Surgeons' Bull.2: 452, 1945.

45- 7 Tobias, C.A., Lawrence, J.H., Roughton, F.J.W. , Root, W.S . , and
Gregersen, M.I. The elimination of carbon monoxide from the
human body with reference to the possible conversion of CO to

co9.

Amer. J. Physiol. 145; 253-263, 1945.

46- 1 Graff, W.S., Scott, K.G., and Lawrence, John H. The histologic
effects of radiophosphorus on normal and lymphomatous mice.
Amer. J. Roentgenol. Radium Ther. 55; 44-54, 1946.

46- 2 Lund, D.W. , Lawrence, J.H., and Lawrence, L.B.: Latent neuro
logic manifestations following decompression; report of a
case of severe reaction following ascent to 38,000 feet.
Occupational Med. J.: 75-80, 1946.

136

46- 3 Lawrence, J.H., Loomis, W.F., Tobias, C .A . , and Turpin, F.H.

Preliminary observations on the narcotic effect of xenon
with a review of values for solubilities of gases in water
and oils.
J. of Physiol. {British) 105; 197-204, 1946.

47- 1 Lawrence, John H. : Radioactive isotopes in medicine.

Reprint of one of a series of broadcasts, "The Doctors Talk
it Over", sponsored by Lederle Laboratories Division,
American Cyanimid Company, February 17, 1947.

47- 2 Lawrence, John H. : The use of isotopes in medical research.
J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 134; 219-225, 1947.

47- 3 Tobias, C.A., Loomis, W.F., and Lawrence, J.H. Studies on

skin temperature and circulation in decompression sickness.
Amer. J. Physiol. 149; 626-633, 1947.

47- 4 Lawrence, J.H. Tracer and therapeutic studies with isotopes.
Chicago Medical Society Bull. 50: 93-98, 1947.

48- 1 Lawrence, J.H. Atomic energy in medicine.

J. Med. and Pharm. , South Dakota, January 11-18, 1948.

48- 2 Dobson, R.Lowry end Lawrence, J.H.: Physiological effects
of radiant energy.

pp 479-500 in Annual Review of Physiology, Vol. X. Annual
Reviews, Inc., Stanford, California, 1948.

48- 3 Dougherty, Ellsworth C. and Lawrence , John H. Heavy and

radioactive isotopes in clinical and experimental medicine,
pp 1-43 (Chapter 1) in Advances in Biological and Medical
Physics, Vol. 1, J.H. Lawrence and J.G. Hamilton, editors,
Academic Press, New York, 1948.

48- 4 Lawrence, John H. , Dobson, R. Lowry, Low-Beer, Bertram V.A.,
and Brown, Bruce R.: Chronic myelogenous leukemia; a study
of 129 cases in which treatment was with radioactive phosphorus
J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 136; 672-677, 1948.

*

48- 5 Lawrence, John H.: Constructive and destructive aspects of
atomic energy.

The Harrison Mart land Lecture, Essex County Anatomical and
Pathological Society, New Jersey, 1947.
J. Med. Soc. New Jersey 45, 337-340, 1948.

48- 6 Dougherty, E.G. and Lawrence, J.H.: Isotopes in clinical and
experimental medicine.
California Med. 69; 58-73;' 148-153, 1948.

137
48- 7 Lawrence, John H. : Isotopes in neoplastic disease.

Rocky Mountain Medical Journal 45; 980-984, 1948.

48- 8 Lawrence, John H.: Seme tracer and therapeutic- studies
with artificial radioactivity.
Sir James Mackenzie Davidson Memorial Lecture, British

Institute of Radiology, London, July 17
Brit. J. Radiology 21; 531-543, 1948.

1947.

49- 1 Wasserman, L.R. , Dobson, R.L., and Lawrence, J.H.: Blood
oxygen studies in patients with polycythemia and in
normal subjects.
J. Clin. Invest. 28; 60-65, 1949.

49- 2 Moffitt, Herbert C.,Jr., and Lawrence, John H.: Chronic

leukemia of long duration, with a report of 31 cases with

a duration of over five years.

Ann. Internal Med. 3J): 778-790, 1949.

49- 3 Lawrence, J.H., Low-Beer, B.V.A., and Carpender, James W.J.:
Chronic lymphatic leukemia; a study of 100 patients treated
with radioactive phosphorus.
J. Amer. Med. ASsoc. 140; 585-588, 1949.

49- 4 Lawrence, J.H. and Rosenthal, R.L.: Multiple myeloma associated
with polycythemia report of four cases.
Amer. J. Med. Sciences 218; 149-154, 1949.

49- 5 Lawrence, J.H. : The control of polycythemia by marrow inhibition
a ten-year study on 172 patients.
J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 141; 13-18, 1949.

49- 6 Lawrence, John H. Foreword.

in Isotopic Tracers and Nuclear Radiations with Applications
to Biology and Medicine, McGraw-Hill, New York, 1949.

49- 7 Tobias, C.A., Jones, H.B., Lawrence, J.H., and Hamilton, J.G.
The uptake and elimination of krypton and other inert gases
by the human body.
J. Clin. Invest. 28: 1375-1385, 1949.

A49- 8 Huf-f, Rex L. , Hennessy, Thomas G., and Lawrence, John H. : Iron
metabolism studies in normal subjects and in patients having
blood dyscrasias. Proceedings for Forty-first Annual Meeting
American Society for Clinical Investigation, May 1949.
J. Clin. Invest. 28; 790, 1949. (Abstract)

138

50- 1 Lawrence, John H. Isotopes en medicina.

Anales de la Facultad de Medicina, Lima, Peru, 33: 1-24, 1950.

50- 2 Lawrence, J.H. and Wasserraan, L.R.: Multiple myeloma; a study

of 24 patients treated with radioactive isotopes (P32 and Sr^9) .
Ann. Internal Med . 33: 41-55, 1950.

50- 3 Huff, Rex L. , Bethard, W.F., Garcia, J.F., Roberts, B.M.,
Jacobson, L.O., and Lawrence, J.H.: Tracer iron distri
bution studies in irradiated rats with lead-shielded
spleens .
J. Clin. Invest. 36; 40-51, 1950.

50- 4 Huff, R.L., Hennessy, T.G., Austin, R.E, , Garcia, J.F., Roberts,
B.M. , and Lawrence, J.H.: Plasma and red cell iron turnover
in patients having various hematopoiet ic disorders.
J. Clin. Invest. 29; 1041-1052, 1950.

50- 5 Berlin, Nathaniel I., Lawrence, John H. , and Gartland, Jean :
Tfce blood volume in chronic leukemia as determined by
p32 -labeled red blood cells.
J. Lab. and Clin. Med. 36: 435-439, 1950.

50- 6 Lawrence, John H.: The clinical use of radioactive isotopes.

The Ludwiq Kast Memorial Lecture, New York- City, October 10,1949
New York Academy of Medicine 20; 639-669, 1950.

50- 7 Lawrence, John H. and Goetsch, Anne T.: Familial occurrence
of polycythemia and leukemia.
California Medicine 73: 3G1-363, 1950.

50- 8 Berlin, N.I., Lawrence, J.H., and Gartland, J. : Blood volume

in polycythemia as determined by P -labeled red blood cells.
Amer. J. Med. 9: 747-751, 1950.

51- 1 Berlin, N.I . , , Tolbert , B.M., and Lawrence, J.H. STudies in

glycine-2-C metabolism in man. I. The pulmonary excretion

of C140 .

J. ClinT Invest. 30; 73-76, 1951.

51- 2 Ber-lin, N.I., Hyde, Grace M. , Parsons, Robert J., Lawrence, John H.
and Port, Shirley^,, Blood volume of the normal female as
determined with P -labeled red blood cells.
Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 76; 831-832, 1951.

51- 3 DeBacker, Jean and Lawrence, John H. : L'Association de la
leucemie a la polycythemia vraie.
La Press Medicale 59: 461-463, 1951.

51- 4 Moffit, Herbert C., Jr., Lawrence, J.H., and Berlin, N.I.:

Polycythemie vraie aspects cliniques et exper imentaux diag
nostic dif f erent iel.
Revue d 'Hematologie _6: 463-469,- 1951.

- -i .L. O J. .1 V

139 Page 10.

51- 5 Lawrence, John H.: The medical use of radioactive isotopes.
Amer. J. Roentgenol. Radium Ther. 65: 953-954, 1951.

51- 6 Berlin, N.I., Rowles, Donald F. , Hyde, Grace M., Parsons, Robert
J.', Lawrence, John H. , and Port, Shirley: Blood volume in
pulmonary t-uberculosis.
A.M. A. Archives Internal Med. 88; 17-19, 1951.

51- 7 Berlin, N.I. and Lawrence, J.H. : The changes in the bone-

marrow differential in chronic leukemia treated with P

and Y90.

Acta Medica Scandinavica 140; 99-118, 1951.

•
51- 8 Lawrence, John H. : Therapeutic uses of isotopes.

General Practice (GP) 4.: 65-71, 1951.

51- 9 Huff, Rex L. , Lawrence, John H. , Siri, William E., Wasserman,
Louis R. , and Hennessy, Thomas G.: Effects of changes in
altitude on hematopoiet ic activity.
Medicine 30: 197-217, 1951.

51-10 Lawrence, John H. : Therapy with radioactive isotopes.

J. Kansas Med. Soc., Cancer Supplement 52 <9): 7a-9a, 1951.

51-11 Lawrence, John H.: Tracer research and cancer.

J. Kansas Med. Soc., Cancer Supplement 52 (9) ;31a-34a, 1951.

51-12 Berlin, N.I., Lawrence, J.H. , and Lee, Helen C.: The life

span of the red blood cell in chronic leukemia and polycythemia.
Science 114; 385-387, 1951.

51-13 Huff, Rex L. , Elmlinger, Paul J. , Garcia, Joseph F., Oda , J.M.,
Cockrell, M.C., and Lawrence, J.H. Ferrokinet ics in normal
persons and in patients having various erythropoiet ic dis
orders .
J. Clin. Invest. 30; 1512-1526, 1951.

51-14 Prentice, Theodore C., Berlin, N.I., Hyde, Grace M., Parsons,
Robert J., Lawrence, John H. , and Port, Shirley: Total red
cell volume, plasma volume, and sodium space in congestive
heart failure.
J-. Clin. Invest. 30: 1471-1482, 1951.

140

52- 1 Lawrence, John H. Polycythemia vera ; method of John H. _ j.
Lawrence, M.D.

pp 228-230 in Current Therapy; H.F. Conn, editor; W.E.
Saunders & Co., Philadelphia, 1952.

52- 2 Rosahn, Paul D., Tobias, Cornelius A., and Lawrence, John H. :
Effects on the white mouse of a single whole-body exposure
of 190-MeV deuterons.
Amer. J. Path. 28: 37-49, 1952.

52- 3 Tobias, C.A., Anger, H.O. , and Lawrence, J.H.: Radiological
use of high energy deuterons and alpha particles.
Amer. J. Roentgenol. ,Rad ium Ther,'Nucl. Med. 67 ; 1-25, 1952.

52- 4 Berlin, N.I., Hyde, G.M., Lawrence, J.H., Parsons, R.J., and •
Port, S- : The blood volume in pre-eclampsia as determined
with P -labeled red blood cells.
Surgery, Gynecology and Obstetrics 94; 21-22, 1952.

52- 5 Lawrence, J.H., Huff, R.L. , Siri, W.E. , Wasserman, L.R. , and

Hennessy, T.G.: A physiological study in the Peruvian Andes.
Acta Medica Scandinavica 142: 117-131, 1952.

52- 6 Huff, R.L. , Tobias, C.A., and Lawrence, J.H. A test for red cell
production.
Acta Haematologica 7_: 129-142, 1952.

52- 7 Hyde, G.M., Berlin, N.I., Parsons, R. J. , Lawrence , J.H., and
Port-^S.: Blood volume in portal cirrhosis as determined
by P -labeled red blood cells.
J. Lab. Clin. Med. .39: 347-353, 1952.

52- 8 Prentice, T.C., Berlin, N.I. and Lawrence, J.H.: Effect of
therapy on blood volume, blood pressure and spleen size in
polycythemia vera.
A.M. A. Arch. Internal Med. 89 t 584-590, 1952.

52- 9 Prentice, T.C., Siri, W.E., Berlin, N.I., Hyde, G.M., Parsons,
R.J., Joiner, E.E., and Lawrence, J.H. Studies of total
body water with tritium.
J. Clin. Invest. .31:412-418, 1952.

52-10 Lawrence, J.H. and Berlin, N.I.: Relative polycythemia — the
polycythemia of stress.
Yale J. Biol. Med. 24: 498-505, 1952.

52-11 Wasserman, L.R. , Lawrence, J.H. , Berlin, N.I., Dobson, R.L. , and
Estren, S.: The bone marrow picture in polycythemia vera
before and after treatment with radioactive phosphorus.
Acta Medica Scandinavica 143: 442-449, 1952.

141

52-12 Berlin, N.I., Hyde, G.M., Parsons, R.J., and Lawrence, J.H.:

The blood volume in various medical and surgical conditions.
New Engl. J. Med. 247: 675-684, 1952.

52-13 Lawrence, J.H., Elmlinger, P.J., and Fulton, G.: Oxygen and the
control of red cell production in primary and secondary poly
cythemia; effects on the iron turnover patterns with Fe
as tracer.
Cardiologia 21: 337-346, 1952.

53- 1 Lawrence, John H. Polycythemia vera ; method of John H.
Lawrence, M.D. pp 235-238, in Current Therapy; H.F.
Conn, . editor; W.B. Saunders & Co., Philadelphia, 1953.

53- 2 Picon-Reategui, E., Fryers, G.R., Berlin, N.I., and Lawrence,
J.H.: Effect of reducing the atmospheric pressure on body
water content of rats.
Amer. J. Physiol. 172: 33-36, 1953.

53- 3- Elmlinger, Paul J. , Huff, Rex L. , Tobias, C.A., and Lawrence,

J.H.: Iron turnover abnormalities in patients having anemia;
serial blood and in vivo tissue studies with Fe59.
Acta Haematologica 9.: 73-96, 1953.

53- 4 Lawrence, J.H. , Berlin, N.I., and Huff, R.L. The nature
and treatment of polycythemia : studies on 263 patients.
Medicine 32: 323-388, 1953.

53- 5 Lawrence, John H.: Life in the Andes, where the air is
thin.
California Monthly 4.4: 9-10; 38-41, October 1953.

54- 1 Lawrence, John H. : Polycythemia vera; method of John H.
Lawrence, M.D.

pp 260-263 in Current Therapy; H.F. Conn, Editor; W.B.
Saunders & Co., Philadelphia, 1954.

54- 2 Lawrence, John H.: The treatment of chronic leukemia.
Medical Clinics of North America 38: 525-540, 1954.

54- 3 Lawrence, John H. : Statement of Dr. John Hundale Lawrence,
Director, Donner Laboratory, University of California at
Berkeley.

Hearings before the Sub-committee on Research and Development
of the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, Congress of the
United States.

The 83rd Congress, 2nd Session on the Contribution of Atomic
Energy to Medicine, June 2,3,4, 1954. (pp 8-26)_.

142

54- 4 Contopoulos, Alexander N., Van Dyke, Donald C., Ellis, S.,
Simpson, Miriam E., Lawrence, John H. and Evans, H.M. :
Evidence for a pituitary erythropoiet ic factor.
Gazeta Medica Portuguesa 7_: 99-104, 1954.

54- 5 Van Dyke, Donald C., Contopoulos, Alexander N.; Williams, B.S.,
Simpson, M. E. , Lawrence, John H. , and Evans, H.M.: Hormonal
factors influencing erythropoiesis .
Acta Haematologica 11; 203-222, 1954.

54- 6 Contopoulos, A.N., Van Dyke, D.C,., Simpson, M.E., Lawrence,

J.H. , and Evans, H.M.: Failure of newborn rat to respond to

hypoxia with increased erythropoiesis.

Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 86; 713-715, 1954.

54- 7 Lawrence, John H. : My visit to Aloysius Cardinal Stepinac.
Talk delivered at Baccalaureate Ceremonies, Newman Hall,
Berkeley, CAlifornia, June 17, 1954.

54- 8 Contopoulos, A.N., Simpson, M.E., Van Dyke, D.C., Lawrence,

J.H., and Evans, H.M.: A comparison of the anemia produced
by hypophysectomy with that resulting from combined thyroid-
ectomy, adre nalectomy and gonadectomy.
Endocrinology _55: 509-515, 1954.

54- 9 Reynafarje, C., Berlin, N.I., and Lawrence, J.H.: REd cell
life span in acclimatization to altitude.
Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. 87: 101-102, 1954.

54-10 Berlin, N.I., Reynafarje, C., and Lawrence, J.H.: Red cell
life span in the polycythemia of high altitude.
J. Applied Physiol. 7.: 271-272, 1954.

54-11 Siri, W.E. , Reynafarje, C., Berlin, N.I., and Lawrence, J.H.
Body water at sea level and at altitude.
J. Applied Physiol. 7.: 333-334, 1954.

54-12 Contopoulos, .A.N., Ellis, S., Simpson, M.E., Lawrence, J.H. ,
and Evans, H.M.: Production of polycythemia in hypophysec-
tomized rats by the pituitary erythropoiet ic factor..
Endocrinology _5_5: 808-812, 1954.

54-13 Ber-lin, N.I., Lawrence, J.H., and Lee, Helen C.: The patho-
genesis of the anemia of chronic leukemia ;. measurement of
the life span of the red blood cell with glycine-2-C .
J. Lab. Clin. Med. 44: 860-874, 1954.

Page 14.
143

55- 1 Contopoulos, A.N., Van Dyke, D.C., Ellis, S., Simpson, M.E.,
Lawrence, J.H., and Evans, H.M.: Prevention of neonatal
anemia in the rat by the pituitary erythropoiet ic factor.
Blood 10: 115-119, 1955.

55- 2 Berlin, N.I., Hyde, G.M., Parsons, R.J., and Lawrence, J.H.
The blood volume in cancer.
Cancer 8: 796-802, 1955.

55- 3 Lawrence, John H. , Rosenthal, N., Stickney, M., Wasserman, L.R.,
and Dameshek, W. : Panel in Therapy. iii. The treatment
of polycythemia vera.
Blood 10; 655-661, 1955.

55- 4 Lawrence, John H. Les isotopes radio-act ifs en therapeut ique
hematologique .
Medecine et Hygiene (Geneve) _3: 403-405, 1955.

56- 1 Lawrence, John H. and Tobias, Cornelius A.: Radioactive

isotopes and nuclear radiations in the treatment of cancer.
Cancer Research 16; 185-193, 1956.

56- 2 Lawrence, John H. : Polycythemia vera; method of John H.
Lawrence, M.D.

pp 170-173 in Current Therapy; H.F. Conn, editor; W.B.
Saunders & Co., Philadelphia, 1956.

56- 3 Lawrence, John H. Early experiences in nuclear medicine.
Northwest Medicine 55; 527-533, 1956.

56- 4 Julian, Logan M., Lawrence, John H., Berlin, Nathaniel I.,
and Hyde, Grace M. : Blood volume, body water, and body
fat of the horse.
J. Applied Physiol. 8: 651-653, 1956.

56- 5 Lawrence, John H. : Isotopes and nuclear radiations in
experimental medicine.
A.M. A. Archives Internal Med. 97; 680-693, 1956.

56- 6 Dobson, R.L. and Lawrence, J.H. Radioisotopes in hematology.
pp 27-36 in V. Kongress der Europaischen Gesellschaft fur
Hematologie in Freiburg i.B., September 20-24, 1955,
Springer Verlag, Berlin, 1956.

56- 7 Rosenthal, Donald J. , and Lawrence, J0hn-H.: The use of
radioactive isotopes in medicine.
Medical Clinics of N°rth America 40; 1515-1543, 1956.

56- 8 Tolbert, Bertram M., Lawrence, John H. , and Calvin, Melvin:
R spiratory carbon-^ patterns and physiologic state,
pp 281-285 in Proceedings of the First International Con
ference on the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy, 1955.
(Z/Conf .8/12) Vol. XII, United Nations, New York, 1956.

144

56- 9 Lawrence, John'H.: Radioactive isotopes in hematologic therapy.
pp 142-151 in Proceedings of the First Internet ional Conference
en the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy, 1955. United Nations
(Z/Conf .8/12) Vol. XII; United Nations, New York, 1956.

56-10 Berlin, N.I. and Lawrence, J.H.: Recent advances in methods
for the study of red cell mass and red cell production and
destruction.

pp 365-372, in Proceedings of ther First International Con
ference on the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy, 1955;
United Nations (A/Conf .8/10) , Vol. X (Session 8C , P/183) ;
United Nations, New York, 1956.

56-11 Tobias, C.A., Roberts, J.E., Lawrence, J.H., Low-Beer, E.V.A.,

Anger, H.O. , Born, J.L. , McCombs , R.K., and Huggins, Charles.:
Irradiation hypophysectomy and related studies using 340-MeV
protons and 190-MeV deuterons.

pp 95-109 in Proceedings of the First I ternat ional Conference
on the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy, 1955; United Nations
(A/Conf .8/10) , Vol. X (Session 8C,P/201); United Nations,
. New York, 1956.

56-12 Lawrence, John H.: Some studies of function and structure
in medicine.

Stephen Walter Ranson Memorial. Lecture , Phi Beta Pi Fraternity,
Northwestern University Medical School, October 27, 1955.
Quarterly Bull., Northwestern Univ. Med. Sch. _30:215-227, 1956.

57- 1 Lawrence, J.H. and Dal Santo, G.: Therapy of polycythemia vera
with radioactive phosphorus..
Acta Med. Patavina 17: 460-470, 1957.

57- 2 Berlin, N.I., Lawrence, J.H., and Elmlinger, P.J.: Recent
advances in the knowledge of total red cell volume, pro
duction and destruction.
Blood JL2: 147-164, 1957.

57- 3 Masouredis, S.P. and Lawrence, J.K.: The problem of leukemia
in polycythemia vera.
Amer. J. Med. Science 233; 268-274, 1957.

57- 4 Rosenthal, D.J. and Lawrence, J.H.: Radioact ive isotopes in
medicine.

pp 361-388 in Annual Review of Medicine, Vol. 8; :D.A. Rytand &
W. Creger, editors ;Annual. Reviews , Inc., Palo Alto, Calif. 1957

57- 5 Contopoulos^, A.N., McCombs, R'.K. , Lawrence, J.H., and Simpson,
M.E.: E ythropoietic activity in the plasma of patients with
polycythemia vera and secondary polycythemia.
Blood 12? 614-619, 1957.

Page 16.

57- 6 Lawrence, John H.: Proton irradiation of the pituitary.
Cancer _10: 795-798, 1957.

57- 7 Berlin, N.I., Beeckmans , M. , Elmlinger, P.J., and Lawrence,

J.H.: A comparative study of the Ashby differential agglu
tination, carbon and iron-^ ' methods for the determination
of red cell life span.
J. Lab: Clin. Med . _50: 558-569, 1957.

57- 8 VanDyke, D.C., Garcia, J.F., and Lawrence, J.H.: Concentration
of highly potent erythropoiet ic activity from urine of anemic
patients .
Proc. Soc. Exptl. Biol. Med. .96: 541-544, 1957.

57- 9 Lawrence, John H.: ATomic Medicine.

California Monthly 6jB: 16-21, December 1957.

58- 1 Lawrence, John H.: Polycythemia Vera ; Method of John H.
Lawrence, M.D.

pp 223-226 in Current Therapy; H.F. Conn, editor; W.B.
Saunders & Co., 1958.

\ 58- 2 Tobias, C.A., Lawrence, J.H. , Born, J.L., McCombs , R.K.,
^ Roberts, J.E., Anger, H.O. , Low-Beer, B.V.A., and Huggins,

Charles B.: Pituitary irradiation with high-energy proton
beams; a preliminary report.
Cancer Research 18; 121-134, 1958.

58- 3 . Lawrence, John H. and Dal Santo, G.: Factors regulating
red cell production (studies with radioisotopes) .
Minerva Nucleare 2.: 51-56, 1958.

58- 4 Lawrence, John H.: Low level irradiation. . . , .

Panel discussion, "Whould the United States Continue Nuclear
Testing?, World AFfairs Council of Northern California,
San Francisco, June 25, 1958.

58- 5 Lawrence, John H. and Donald, William G., Jr.: Giant follicular
lymphoblastoma ; its treatment with radioisotopes.
Ann. Internal Med. 49; 1-16, 1958.

58- 6 Rosenthal, D.J. and Lawrence, J.H. Radioisotopes in medicine.

pp 471-521, in Radiation Biology and Medicine; W. Glaus , editor ;
Addiscn-Wesley, REading, Massachusetts, J.958.

146

58- 7 Lawrence, J.H., Van Dyke, D.C. , Garcia, J.F., and Contopoulos,
A.N.: Studies on the regulation of red cell production sided
by isotopes.

pp 192-211, in proceedings of First UNESCO International Ccr.fi:
en'ce on Radioisotopes in Scientific Research, held inl'Paris _S:
1957, Vol III, Pergamon Press, New York & Paris, 1958.

58- 8 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., and Born, J.L.: Hypophysectomy
for advanced breast cancer using high energy particle beams
— proton and alpha particles.

Third International Symposium on Radioactive Isotopes in
Clinical Medicine and R search, B .d GAstein, Austria, 1958.
Sonderband Strahlentherapie 38: 245-261, 1958.

Radioaktive Isotope in Klinik und Forschung. Ill; FeilingerV- '-'-•
und Vetter, H. , editors; Urban und Schwarzenberg , Muenchen, 19 f

58-' 9 Van Dyke, D.C., Garcia, J.F., and Lawrence, J.H.: Biological
and chemical characteristics of urinary erythropoiet in .
pp=79-84 in Proceedings of the S cond United Nations INter-
national Conference on the Peaceful uses of Atomic Energy,
P/1899, Session D-14, Geneva, Vol. 25, Pergamon Press,
London, 1958.

59- 1 Parker, Howard G. and Lawrence, John H.: Iron metabolism
and polycythemia.

pp 226-233 in Eisenstof fwechsel ; B0itrage zur Forschung
und Klinik; W. Keiderling, editor- 'George Thieme Verlag,
Stuttgart, Germany, 1959.

59- 2 Lawrence, John H. and Donald, William G. , Jr.: Polycythemia
and hydronephros is or renal tumors.
Pnn. Internal Med. 50: 959-969, 1959.

59- 3 Lawrence, J0hn H. and Donald, William G., Jr.: The incidence
of cancer in chronic leukemia and in polycythemia vera.
£mer. J. Med. Sciences 237: 488-498, 1959.

59- 4 Lawrence, JohnH., Naets, Jean P., and Van Dyke, Donald C.:
Physiological and clinical significance of erythropoiet in
as studied with isotopes.

Proceedings of the Fifteenth General Assembly of the Japan Mec: .
Congress, Tokyo, April 1959.
Medicine of Japan in 1959 4: 177-179, 1959.

59- 5 Lawrence, J.H., Born, J.L., Tobias, C.A. , Carlson, R.A. , Sangall:
F., and Welch, Graeme: Clinical and metabolic studies in
patients after alpha particle subtotal or total hypophysector.iv.
Proceedings of the Fifteenth General Assembly of the Japan Mec;:
Congress, Tokyo, April, 1959.
Medicine of Japan in 1959, J5: 859-862, 1959.

59- 6 Born, J.L., Anderson, A.O., Anger, H.O. , Birge , A.C., Blanquet,P.,
Brustad, T., Carlson, R.A., VanDyke, D.C., Fluke, D.J., Garcia, J
Henry, J.P., Knisely, R.M., Lawrence, J.H., Riggs , C.W., Thore 11
B. , Tobias, C.A., Toch, P., and Welch, G.'-: Biological and
medical studies with high-energy particle accelerators.
(Geneva Conference Paper 1958, P/2377) .

pp 180-206 in Progress in Nuclear Energy, Series VII, Volume
2, Medical Sciences; J.C. Bugher ,J.Coursaget , AND J.F. Loutit,
Editors; Pergamon Press, Great Britain, 1959.

60- 1 Born, J.L., Toch, P., Tobias, C.A., Lawrence, J.H., Sangalli, F.,
and Carlson, R.A.: Proton or alpha particle hypophysectomy
for breast cancer, acrgmegaly, and malignant diabetes.
Proceedings of Ninth International Congress of Radiology,
July 23-30, 1959, Muenchen, Germany.

Transactions of Conference, pp 833-844; George Thieme Verlag,
Stuttgart; Germs hy, 1960.

60- 2 McCombs, Rollin K. , Carlson, Richard A., Steinkamp, Ruth C.,
and Lawrence, John H. : Ueber die Verwendung radioaktiver
Isotope in der Haematologie.

pp 47-111 in Handbuch der gesamten Haematologie, 2 Aufl., Bd . 3;
L. Heilmeyer and A. Hittmair , -editors ; Urban and Schwa rze nbe rg ,
Verlag, Muenchen and Berlin Germany, 1960.

60- 3 Pollycove, M. and Lawrence, J.H.: Agranulocytos is and leukopenia.
Method of'Myrori Pollycove and JOhn H. Lawrence. ^

pp 171-172. .in Current Therapy; H.F. Conn, editor W.B. Saunders
and Co., P iladelphia, Pennsylvania, 1960.

60- 4 Lawrence, J.H. and Parker, H.G. : Radiation safety and hazards
in nuclear energy.

pp 101-109 in proceedings of Inter-American Symposium on the
Peaceful Application of Nuclear Energy, Second; Buenos Aires,
June 1-5, 1959, Third Session, Radioisotopes and Radiation in
the Life Sciences; 1960.

60- 5 Lawrence, J.H.: Atomic ray in medicine.

Atomic Energy Guide Letter, Washington D.C. 6 (33) : 2-3,
A'ugust 15, 1960.

60- 6 Dobson, R.L., Lawrence, J.H., Pollycove, M. : Isotopes in
hematology including treatment.

pp 530-537 in II Pensiero Scientific© (Proceedings of the
Vllth International Congress of the International Society of
Hematology, Rome, September 7-13, 1958), 1960.

60- 7 Constable, J.D. , Lawrence, J.H. , --Born, J.L., Tobias, C.A.,
Ariotti, P.E., Sangalli, F., C&rlson, R.C., and Toch, P.
Effect of alpha particle hypophysectomy on disseminated
cancer of male breast.
J. Aiuer. Med. Assoc. 174: 1720-1723, 1960.

148

60- 8 Lawrence, John H. : Medical and biological applications of

atomic energy. Testimony before House of Representatives
Committee on Appropriations.

pp 137-144 in proceedings of eighty-sixth Congress, 2nd session:
Part 3. Atomic Energy Commission, Nuclear Propelled Aircraft
programs 1960. United States Govt . Printing Office, Washington,
D.C., 1960.

61- 1 Aggeler, Paul C., Pollycove, M. , Hoag , Syllvja, Donald, W.G. , Jr .,
and Lawrence, John H. : Polycythemia vera in childhood, STudies
of iron kinetics with Fe5^ ..and blood clotting factors.
Blood JL7_: 345-350, 1961.

61- 2 Van Dyke, D.C. and Lawrence, J.H.: The regulation of erythro-
poiesis as studied with isotopes: erythropoiet in.
pp 697-705 in Kunstliche Radioafctive Isotope in Physiologic,
Diagnostic und Therapie , (Zweit'e .Auflage , Zweiter . Band)' , 1960;
H. Schwiegk and F. Turba , editors; Spf inger-Ver lag , Heidel
berg, Germany, 1961.

61- 3 Born, J.L. , Lawrence, J.H. , Tobias, C.A., Carlson, R.A., Sangalli,
F., and Welch, G. Hypophysectomie with nuclear radiations.
pp 828-832 in Kunstliche Radioaktive Isotope in Physiologie,
Diagnostik, und Therapie (Zweite Auf lage , Zweiter Band), 1969;
H. Schwiegk and F. Turba, editors; Sppinger-Verlag , Heidelberg,
1961.

61- 4 Cleveland, Anne, Braun-Cantilo, Jorge, LaRoche, Gilles, Tobias,
C.A., Constable, J., Born, J.L., Sangalli, F., Carlson, R.A.,
and Lawrence, J.H. Alpha particle pituitary irradiation in
metastatic carcinoma of the breast: metcbol.ic effects.
pp.:190-198 in proceedings of Conference on Research on
Radiotherapy of Cancer, American Cancer Society, 1961.

61- 5 Van Dyke, D., Lawrence, J.H., and Siri, W.E. Erythropoiet in
as an etiologic factor in blood dyscrasias.
Acta Isotopica _3: 217-226, 1961.

61- 6 Van Dyke, D.C., Layrisse, Miguel, Lawrence, J.H. , Garcia, J.
and Pollycove, M.: Relation between severity of anemia and
erythropoiet in titer in human beings.
Blood JL8=z =--187-201, 1961.

A61- 8 Lawrence, J . h • / Tobias, C.A., and Born, J.L.: Pituitary alpha
particle irradiation. Abstract for 8th Annual Meeting of
Society of Nuclear Medicine, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, June 1961.
J? "HUclear Med . 2- 133, 1961. (Abstract)

61- 7 Lawrence, J.H.: Recents Developpements de la Medecine Nucleatre.
.University of Bordeaux Lecturer, October 1958
Colloque de Biophysique; Journees Medicales de Bordeaux .
(October 24-25, • 1958) ; Societe d-1 Ed it ion d 'Enseignement Superieur,
Paris, 1961.

149

62- 1 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., and Born, J.L. Acromegaly.
7th Annual Meeting, American Clinical andClinatologica 1
Association, Wiliamsburg , Virginia^ Nov. 2-4, 1961.
Trans. Amer. Clin. and Climatol. A$soc. 73; 176-185, 1962.

62- 2 Braun-Cant ilo, Jorge A., LaRoche, Gilles, Novitsky, Mary, and
Lawrence, John H. Conversion of testosterone to estrogens
in humans.
Acta Isotopica JL: 351-377, 1962.

62- 3 Lawrence, J.H.: Next time I return to Japan: Impressions
and experiences of the Fifteenth General Assembly of the
Japan Medical Congress, Tokyo, April 1-5, 1959.
Tomio Ogato, Editor, 1962.

62- 4 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Born, J.L. , Sangalli, F.,

Carlson, R.A. , and Linfoot, J.A. Heavy particle therapy

in acrjamegaly.

Acta R^diologica 58: 337-347, 1962.

62- 5 Lawrence, John H.: Acromegaly. Method of John H. Lav/rence.
p 297 in Current Therapy; H.F. Conn, editor; W.B. Saunders
and Co., Pniladelphia , Pennsylvania, 1962.

62- 6 Lawrence, John H., Tobias, C.A., Born, J.L., Wang, C.C., and
Linfoot, J.H.: Heavy particle irradiation in neoplastic
and neurologic disease.
J. Neurosurgery 19; 717-722, 1962.

62- 7 Lawrence, John H. Isotopes and nuclear radiations in medicine,-
a quarter century of nuclear medicine.

pp 1-22 in proceedings of the International Conference on the
Use of Radioisotopes in Animal Biology and the Medical Sciences,
Mexico City(, November 21-December 1, 1961, Volume I; The
International Atomic Energy Agency, the Food and Agriculture
Organization of the United Nations, and theWorld Health Organi
zation; Academic Press, New York and London, 1962.

62- 8 Parker, H.G., Sargent, T. , Pollycove, M., Carpe , Lestra ,

Linfoot, J.A., Saito, H. , and Lawrence, J.H. Biomedical
tracer studies with the whole body counter.
pp 101-108 in proceedings of Inter-American Symposium on
the Peaceful Application of Nuclear Energy (Fourth) , Mexico
City, April 9-13, 1962, Volume II; Pan-American Union,
Washington D.C., 1962.

62- 9 Pollycove, M. and Lawrence, J.H.: Ferrokinet ics of refractory
anemia . .' . ...;•• .:-.".

pp 42-51 in Proceedings of VIII International Congress of
Hema to logy, Tokyo, Japan, September 4-10, 1960, No. 257;
Pan Pacific Press, Tokyo, Japan, 1962.

150

62-10 STeinkamp, R.C., Lawrence, J.H., and Born, J.L.: Comparative
study of long and short term survivals in chronic lymphatic
leukemia .

Pp 574-578 in Proceedings of VIII International Congress of
Hernatology, Tokyo, Japan, September 4-10, 1960, No. 257;
Pan Pacific Press, Tokyo, Japan 1962.

62-11 Van Kyke , D.C., Lawrence, J.H., and Pollycove, M. :Erythropoiet in
pp!004-1009 in Proceedings of VIII International Congress of
Hematology, Tokyo, Japan, September 4-10, I960, No. 257.
Pan Pacific Press, Tokyo, Japan, 1962.

A62-12 Lawrence, John H. : The future of therapy beams of heavy
particles.

Abstract for Tenth International Congress of Radiology,
August 26-September 1, 1962, Montreal, Canada. (Abstract)

63- 1 Lawrence, J.H.: Heavy particles in neoplastic, metabolic,
and neurological disease.

Chapter 10, pp , in Proceedings of the 12th Annusl

Meeting of the Cpngress of Neurological Surgeons, November
1, 1962. Williams and Wilkins., Co., Baltimore, Maryland,
1963. (Ppublished 1964)

62- 2 VanDyke, B.C., Lawrence, J.H., Pollycove, M. , and

Lowy, Peter: Preliminary results from the use of erythropoien
in human volunteers.

pp 221-230 in Proceedings of the Endocrine Society Meeting,
Hormones and the Kidney, Aberdeen, Scotland, 1962; The Aberdeen
University Press, Ltd., Aberdeen, Scotland, 1963.

63- 3 Lawrence, J.H. and Parker, H.G. Use of radioisotopes in

hematology .

J. Amer. Med . AS.SOC. 184: 136-138, 1963.

63- 4 Winchell, Harry S., Pollycove, M. , Richards, V., and Lawrence,

J.H. Selective irradiation of lymphatic tissues in preparation

for tissue homograft ing .

Amer. J. Surgery JL05: 177-183, 1963.

63- 5 Steinkamp, R.C., Lawrence, J.H... and Born, J.L. Long-term

experiences with the use of P in the treatment of chronic

lymphocytic leukemia.

J. Nucl. Med. £: 92-105, 1963.

> 63- 6 Lawrence, John H. Twenty Years of Nucle=r Medicine.

.pp A1-A2', •"in," Frontiers of Medicine, Roche Report, May 17,1963.

Pege 22
151

63- 7 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Born, J.L., Gottschalk, A.,

Linfoot, J.A., and Kling, R.P.: Alpha particles and proton
beams in therapy.

J. Amer. Med. Assoc. 186- 236-245, 1963.
(See also, Editorial accompanying article, pp 254-255)

63- 8 Linfoot, .J.A., Lawrence, J.H., Born, J.L. , and Tobias, C.A.
> . The alpha particle or proton beam in radiosurgery of the

pituitary gland for Gushing 's disease.
New Engl. J. Med. 269; 597-601, 1963.

63- 9 D'Angio, G.J., and Lawrence, J.H.: Medical research with
^ high-energy heavy particles.

Nucleonics 21; 56-61, 1963.

63-10 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Linfoot, J.A., Born, J.L.,
Gottschalk, A., and Kling, R.P.: Heavy part icles , the
Bragg curve, and suppression of pituitary function in
diabetic retinopathy.
Diabetes 12; 490-501, 1963.

63-11 Sillesen, K. , Lawrence, J.H., and Lyman, J.T.: Heavy-
particle ionization (He,Li,B,Ne) and the prolif erat ive
capacity of neoplastic cells in vivo .
Acta Isotopica 3.' 107-126, 1963.

64- 1 Winchell, H.S., Pollycove, M., Loughman, W.D., Lawrence, J.H.:

Autologous bone marrow transplantation studies in dogs irradi
ated by Y^-DTPA Urine recycling technic.
Blood 23: 44-52, 1964.

64- 2 Lawrence, J.H.: Heavy particle suppression of pituitary function
for severe diabetic retinopathy. Postgraduate course, Univer
sity of California School of Medicine, San Francisco, Department
of Ophthalmology, 1963.

in Ocular Pharmacology and Therapeutics and the Problems of
Medical Management; S.J. Kimura and E.K. Goodner, editors;
g.A. Davis Co., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1964.

64- 3 Winchell, H.S., Pollycove, M., Loughman, W.D., and Lawrence, J.H,
A method for 'maintenance of'Ciirie quantities of Y9>.DTPA in the
human body for defined time periods: technique and dosimetry..
J. Nucl. Med. _5: 16-26, 1964.

64- 4 Winchell, H.S., Pollycove, M. , Andersen, A. 6., and Lawrence,
J.H.: Relatively selective Beta irradiation of lymphatic
structures in the dog using Y90-DTPA.
Blood 23: 321-336, 1964.

152

64- 5 Lawrence, J.H.: Particules Lourdes en Therapie .

The Pasteur Lecture, Pasteur Institute, Paris, France,

May 9, 1963.

Presse Medicale 72: 1349-1352, 1964.

64- 6 Sargent, T. „ Linfoot, J.A., Stauffer, Henry, and Lawrence,

J.H. Use of a whole body counter in turnover studies with

C* 3

J. Nucl. Med. ,5: 407-416, 1964.

64- 7 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Born, J.L., Linfoot, J.A., and
Gottschalk, A. Alpha and proton heavy particles and the
Bragg peak in therapy. Proceedings of Annual Meeting of American
Clinical and Climatological Association, Hot Springs, Virginia,
November 5, 1963.
Transactions, Amer. Clin. and Climatol. Assoc. 7_5:111-116, 1964.

64- 8. Saito, Hiroshi, Sargent, Thornton, Parker, Howard G., and
Lawrence, John H. NOriiBl iron absorption in man.
pp 511-522 in Proceedings of the IX-th congress of the
International Society of Hematology, Volume III, 1964.

, 64- 9 Tobias, C.A., Lawrence, J.H., Lyman, J., Born, J.L., Gottschalk,
A., Linfoot, J»-A. , McDonald, L. , : progress report on pituitary
irradiation.

pp 19-35 in Proceedings of 2nd International Symposium on ?
REsponse of the Nervous System to Ionizing Radiation, Los Angeles
1963; T.J. Haley and R.S. Snider, Editors, Little , Brown,
Boston, 1964.

64-10 Saito, H. , Sargent, T. , Parker, H.G. , and Lawrence, J.H.:

Whole-body iron loss in normal man, measured with a gamma

spectrometer.

J. Nucl. Med. J5: 571-580, 1964.

64-11 Manougian , Edward, PolLycove, Myron, Linfoot, John A., and
Lawrence, John H.: C-^-glucose kinetic studies in normal,
diabetic, and acromegalic subjects.
J. Nucl. Med. .5: 763-795, 1964.

. 64-12 D'Angio, G.J., Lawrence, J.H. , Gottschalk, A., Lyman, J.:

Relative efficiency of high-LET radiation (Bragg-peak lithium
ions) on normal rabbit skin, using integral dose as a basis
for comparison.
Nature 204: 1267-1268, December 26, 1964.

64-13 Lawrence, John H. Atomic Energy, Science, and. Education (from

TEhe Alberts .Hard ing Lecture given at South Dakota State College,
Brookings, South Dakota, April 21, 1964).

Congressional Record, United States Senate, pp 21787-21791,
September 22, 1964.

64-14 Lawrence, John H. : The use of heavy particles and the Bragg peak
in therapy.

Paper given at International symposium "Radio-biological destruc
tion of the Hypophysis in Endocrinology, Milrn, Nov. 30, 1963.
Acta Isotopica _4: 327-345, 1964.

65- 1 Lawrence, John H. : Nuclear techniques in biomedical research.
Nucleonics 23(1) : 48-49, 1965.

65- 2 Lawrence, John H. , Tobias, C.A., Linf oot , J.A., Born, J.L,,
Manougian, E., and Lyman, J.T.: Heavy particles and the
Bragg peak in therapy.
Annals Internal Med. 62; 400-407, 1965.

^ 65- 3 Lawrence, John H. and Tobias, Cornelius A.: Heavy particles
in medicine .

Chapter 6 (pp 127-246) in Progress in ATomic Medicine, Vol. I;
J.H. Lawrence, Editor; Grune & Stratton, New York, 1965..

65- 4 Born, J.L., Lawrence, J.H., Linfoot , J.A., Tobias, C.A.,

Manougian, E. , and Snyder, N.J.: Hypophyseal suppression with
heavy particles in diabetic retinopathy.

Chapter 33 (pp 475-482) in Proceedings of the Fifth Congress of
the International Diabetes Federation, Toronto, Canada, July 1964
On the Nature and Treatment of Diabetes; Excerpta Medica Inter
national Congress Series No. 84; Amsterdam, Holland, 1965.

65- 5 Shkurkin, Carol J. and Lawrence, John H.: Treatment of blood

diseases and malignancy with radioactive phosphorus in relation
to other therapeutic agents.

Chapter 27 (pp 675-704) in Nuclear Medicine; W.H. Blahd, Editor;
Blakiston Division, McGraw-Hill Book Co., New York, 1965.

( 65- 6 D'Angio, Giulio J., Gottschalk, Alexander, and Lawrence, John H. :
Medical applications of high-energy nuclear particles.
Chapter 30 (pp 779-798) in Nuclear Medicine; W.H. Blahd, Editor;
Blakiston Division, McGraw-Hill Book Co., New York, 1965.

65- 7 Lawrence, John H. : George de Hevesy — a genius.

Letter to the Editor (DeHevesy's 80th Birthday), International
Journal Applied Radiation and Isotopes 16; 511, 1965.

66- 1 Fish, V.J., Winchell, H.S., and Lawrence, J.H. Thymic and

splenic irradiation in the tr^atmentof acute lymphatic leukemia,
Amer. J. Roentgenol., Radium Ther., Nucl.Med. 97 ; 989-990, 1966,

66- 2 Winchell, H.S^., Pollycove, M., Loughman, W.D., Richard, V., Kim,
L. , and Lawrence, J.H.: Homotransplantat ion studies in dogs
following selective radioisotopic lymphatic ablation.
J. Nucl. Med. 7.: 416-423, 1966.

154

66- 3 Fawwaz, R.A. , "Winchell, H.S., Pollycove, M. , Sargent, T.,

Anger, H.O., and Lawrence, J.H.: Intestinal iron absorption
studies using iron and Anger positron camera.
J. Nucl. Med. I.' 569-574, 1966.

66- 4 Hazel, J,J., Lawrence, J.H., and Tobias, C.A. Heavy particle
radiations -- some therapeutic considerations.
J. de 1'Assoc. Canadienne des Radiologists XVII ; 158-161, 1966.

66- 5 Lawrence, John H.: Some early studies with the products of
nuclear physics.
Isotopes and Radiation Technology j4: 21-24, 1966.

66= 6 VanDyke, B.C., Nohr, Mary Lou, and Lawrence, J.H.: Erythro-

poietin in the urine of normal and erythropoiet ically abnormal

human beings.

Blood 28* 535-543, 1966.

66- 7 Pollycove, M. , Winchel, H.S., and Lawrence, J.H. Classification
and evolution of patterns of erythropoies is in polycythemia
vera as studied by iron kinetics.
Blood 28: 807-829, 1966.

66- 8 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Born, J.L. , Linfoot, J.A., and
D'Angio, D.: Heavy particles in experimental medicine and
therapy. Scientific Exhibit, Annual Meeting of American
Medical Association, New York City, June 1965.
J. Amer. Medical Assoc. 196: 166-170, 1966.

66- 9 Winchell, H.S., and Lawrence, J.H. Polycythemia vera: method
of H.S. Winchell and John H.Lawrence.

pp 245-247 in Current Therapy, H.F. Conn, Editor; W.B.
Saunders and Co., PHi ladelphia , Pennsylvania, 1966.

67- 1 Lawrence, John H. and Tobias, C.A. Heavy particles in therapy.

Chapter 15, (pp 260-276) in Modern Trends in Radiotherapy, Vol. I,
T.J. Deeley and C.A. P. Wood , editors; Butterworths , London, 1967.

67- 2 Manougian, E. , Pollycove, M. , Linfoot, J.A., and Lawrence, J.H.:
C^-glucose kinetic studies in normal, diabetic and acromegalic
subjects following glucose infusion.

pp 260-270, in Radioaktive Isotope in Klinik and Forschung
VII International Symposium in Bad Gastein, Austria, January
10-13, 1966; K. Fellinger and R. Hofer, Editors; Urban, and"
Schwarzenberg, Vienna, 1967^.

67- 3 Lawrence, J.H.: Heavy particle irradiation to the pituitary in
metastatic breast cancer.

pp 173-174, . proceedings of Colloque International de Lyon on
Major Endocrine Surgery for the Treatment of Cancer of the
Bxeast j.n Advances Sfeages, in Lyon, France, May 5-7, 1966;
M. "Dargent & --C1 .Romieu, Editors; SIMEP Editions, Lyon, 1967.

155
67- 4 Garcia, J.F., L nfoot , J.A., Manougian, E. , Born, J.L., and

Lawrence, J.H.: Plasma growth hormone studies in normal
J individuals and acromegalic patients.

J. Clin. Endocrinol. & Metab. 27; 1395-1402, 1967.

67- 5 Lawrence, John H.: Radiobiological studies with heavy particles
as related to therapy.
Radiation Research, Suppl. 7_: 360-368, Academic Press, 1967.

67- 6 Lawrence, John H.: President's Annual Report (presented at the

Annual Meeting, Society of Nuclear Medicine, Seattle, June 1967).
J. Nucl. Med. 8.: 699, 1967.

68- 1 Feola, J.M., Richman, C. , Raju, M.R., Curtis, S.B., and Lawrence,

J.H. Effect of negative pions on the proliferative capacity
of ascites tumor cells (lymphoma) in vivo.
Radiation Research 34: 70-78, 1968.

68- 2 Bresson, Y. , Bunnag , T.W. , Chomicki, O. , Lagunova, I.G., Lawrence,

J.H., Mayneord, W.V. , Parker, H.M., Reboul, J., Strajman, E. ,
Walstam, R., WEbster, E.W., Windeyer, B. MEDICAL RADIATION PHYSIC
Report of a Joint IAEA/WHO Expert Committee (Meeting held in
Geneva, Dec. 12-18, 1967). Wld . Hlth. Org . Tech. Rept . Series
No. 390, World Health Organization, Geneva, 1968.

69- 1 Lawrence, J.H., Winchell, H.S., and Donald, w-.G. Leukemia in

polycythemia vera: relationship to splenic myeloid metaplasia

and therapeutic radiation dosec

Annals Internal Med. 70: 763-771, 1969.

69- 2 Weber, P.M., Pollycove , M. , Bacaner, M., and Lawrence, J.H.
The cardiac output in polycythemia vera.
J. Lab. and Clin. Med. 73; 753-762, 1969.

69- 3 Ronai, P., Winchell, H.S., Anger, H.O. , and Lawrence, J.H. Whole-
body scanning of '9Fe for evaluating body distribution of erythro
poietic marrow, splenic dequest rat ion of red cells, and hepatic
deposition of iron.
J. Nucl. Med. 10; 469-474, 1969.

69- 4 Lawrence, J.H. Reducing effects of acromegaly.
Medical World News 10(23) ; 35-36, 1969.

69- 5 Chong, C.Y. , Linfoot , J.A., and Lawrence, J.H. High-energy
heavy charged particles in medicine.
Radiologic Clinics North America l_i 319-343, 1969.

69- 6 Fawwaz, R.A., Winchell, H.S., Frye , F., Hemphill, W. , and Lawrence,
J.H. Localization of 58co anc1 65zn-hematoporphyrin complexes in
canine ly.mph nodes.
J. Nucl. Med. 10; 581-585, 1969.

69- 7 Ngo, T.M. , Winchell, H.S,. Williams, M.A., and Lawrence, J.H.

Decreasedl4cO2 production in thiamine-def icient rats given pyruvat
1- C and acetate-l-l^C: a possible means for early diagnosis
of beri-beri?
J. Nucl. Med. 10; 676-682, 1969.

156

69- 8 Feola, J.M., Lawrence, J.H., and Welch, G.P. Oxygen enhancement
ratio and RBE of helium ions on mouse lymb.licr:i.a cells.
Radiation REsearch 4C): 400-413, 1969.

69- 9 Linfoot, J.A,, Born, J.L., Garcia, J.F., Manougian, E., Kling, R. ,
Chong, C.Y., Tobias, C.A., C rlson, R.A., and Lawrence, J.H.
Metabolic and ophtha Imological observations following heavy-
particle pituitary suppressi/e therapy in diabetic retinopathy.
Chapter. 24 , (pp 277-289) in proceedings of Symposium on the
Treatment of Diabetic REtinopathy, Warranton, Virginia, Sept.
29 to October 1, 1968; M.F. Goldberg and S.L. Fine, editors;
U.S. Public Health Service Publication No. 1890, Government
Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1969.

70- 1 Linfoot, J.A., Garcia, J.F., Hoye , S.A., Schmitt, J . , and
Lawrence, J.H. Heavy particle therapy in acromegaly.
Proc. Roy. Soc. Med, 63; 219-221, 1970.

70- 2 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Linfoot, J.A., and Fink, R.A.
Heavy particles in neurology and neurosurgery: a review.
Chapter 12, (pp 313-326) in Radionuclide Applications in
Neurology and Neurosurgery; Y. Wang and P. Paoletti, Editors;
C.C. Thomas, Springfield, Illinois, 1970.

70- 3 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Linfoot, J.A.; Born, J.L., Lyraan,
J.T., Chong, C.Y., Manlugian, E., and Wei, W.C. Successful
treatment of acromegaly: metabolic and clinical studies in
145 patients.
J. Clin. Endocrinol. & Metabolism 31: 180-198, 1970.

70- 4 Linfoot, J.A., Garcia, J.F., Wei, W. , Fink, R. , Sarin, R. ,

Born, J.L., and Lawrence, J.H. Human growth hormone levels

in cerebrospina 1 fluid.

J. Clin. Endocrinol. & Metabolism 31; 230-232, 1970.

70- 5 Linfoot, J.A., Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Born, J.L. , Chong, C.Y,
Lyman," J.T. , Manougian , E. : Progress report '-o IT the treatment of
Cushing's disease. 'Proc. meeting American Clinical., and Climato-
logical Association," Hilton Head. Island , -S .Carolina , Oct. 22, 1969
Trans. Amer. Clinical & Climatolog. Assoc. 81: 196-212, 1970. .

70- 6 Lawrence, John H. Radioisotopes and Nuclear RAdiations in

Therapy: Historical Perspectives and Current Investigations,
pp 12-16 in Souvenir, published for the II Annual Conference
of the Society of Nuclear Medicine, India, October 15-16, 1970,
Delhi, India. 1970.

70- 7 Cernelc, Milan, Winchell, H.S., Sargent, T., Pollycove:, M. , Shkurki.
C., and Lawrence. J.H. Iron absorption after porto-caval anasto
mosis .
Medical Journal of Slovenia 39:. 83-85, 197 C.

157

70- 8 Lawrence, J.H., Born, J.L., Linfoot, J.A., and Chong, C.Y.
Heavy particle radiation treatment of pituitarv tumors.
Letter to the Editor; J. Amer . Med . ASSOC. 214': 2061, 1970.

70- 9 Winchell, H.S., Stahelin, H. , Kusobov, N. , Slanger, M. , Fish,:M.,
Pollycove, M., and Lawrence, J.H. Kinetics of CC--HCC ~ in
normal adult males.
J. Nucl. Med. 11; 711-715, 1970.

70-10 Feola, J.M., Raju, M.R., Richman, C., and Lawrence, J.H.
The RBE of negative pions in 2-day-old ascites tumors.
Radiation Research 44; 637-648, 1970.

71- 1 Lawrence, J.H. Radioisotopes and nuclear radiations in medicine.
Northwest Medicine 70- 245-250, 1971.

71- 2 Lawrence, J.H. Treatment <of acromegaly (Cont).

Letter to the Editor, New Engl. J. Med. 285: 56-57, 1971.

\ 71- 3 Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Lyman, J.T., and Linfoot, J.A.

Heavy particles in the treatment of acromegaly and Gushing 's
disease and their potential in' value in other neoplastic
diseases .

Chapter 32, (pp 806-820) in Nuclear Medicine, 2nd Edition;
W.H. Blah'd, Editor; McGraw-Hill, New York, 1971.

71-.-4.- Lawrence, J.H., Okerlund, M.D., Linfoot, J.A., and Born, J.L.
Heavy particle treatment of Gushing 's disease.
Letter to the Editor, New Engl. J. Med. 285: 1263, 1971.

^ 71- 5 Tobias, C.A., Lyman, J.T., and Lawrence, J.H. Some considerations
^ of physical and biological factors in radiotherapy with high-LET

radiations including heavy particles, Pi mesons, and fast ..=•'.!
neutrons. -

Chapter 6 (pp 167-218) in Progress in ATomic Medicine: Recent
Advances in Nuclear Medicine, Volume 3; J.H. Lawrence, E§itor;
Grune & sTratton, New York , 1971.

^ 71- -6 Linfoot, J.A., Chong, C.Y., Garcia, J.F., Cleveland, A.S.,

Connell, G.M. , Manougian, E., Okerlund, M.D., Born, J.L., and

Lawrence, J.H. Heavy-particle therapy for acromegaly, Gushing 's

disease, Nelson's syndrome, and non-functioning pituitary

adenomas.

Chapter 7 (pp 219-238) in Progress in ATomic Medicine: Recent

Advances in Nuclear Medicine, Volume 3; J.H. Lawrence, Editor;

Grune & STratton, New York, 1971.

158

71- 7 Lawrence, John H. Heavy particles: comments or. historical

\ research and medical applications.

s~* Yale Scientific Magazine 45(5): 2-4, February 1971.

71- 8 Lawrence, J.H., 'Jobias, C.A., Born, J.L., Linfoot , J.A.,

-» Chong,.C.Y., L man, J.T., and Manougian, E. Radioisotopes

>-* . and nuclear radiations in therapy: historical perspectives

^ and current investigations.

pp 262-269 in Oncology 1970, Proceedings of the Tenth Inter-
National Cancer Congress, Volume III. Diagnosis and Management
of Cancer: General Considerations; R.L. Clark, R.W. Cutnley,
J.E. McCay, and M.M. Copeland, Editors; Year Book Medical
Publishers, Inc., Chicago, 1971. (congress held in Houston,
ffexas, May 1970) .

72- 1 Lawrence, John H. RAdioisotope therapy in hematology.

Chapter 17 (pp 155-167) in proceedings of Third Annual
Nuclear Medicine S minar, "Hematopoiet ic and Gastrointestinal
Investigations witn RAdionuclides" , M^ami Beach, Florida,
March 1971; A.J. Gilson, W.M. Smoak III, and M.B. weinstein,
Editors; C.C. Thomas, Springfield, Illinois, 1972.

72- 2 Lawrence, John H. Positron emitting isotopes: investigative
and diagnostic studies.

Chapter 27 (pp 247-263) in;-. ^.proceedings of Third Annual
Nuclear Medicine S minar, "Hemaitopoiet ic and Gastrointestinal
Investigations with Radionuclides" , Miami Beach, Florida,
March 1971; A.J. Gilson, W.M. Smoak III, and M.B. Weinstein,
Editors; C.C. Thomas, Springfield, Illinois, 1972.

72- 3 Price, J., STauffer, H.H., Hogan, W.D. , and Lawrence, J.H.

Correlation coefficients between retinal lesions and visual

acuity in diabetic retinopathy.

Brit. J. Ophthalmology 56; 21-24, 1972.

72- 4 Lawrence, John H. Heavy particle therapy hfeld effective in
endocrinopathies .
Internist Observer 10 (7) ; 2; 4; November 1972.

73- 1 Lawrence, John H. Heavy=part icle radiation therapy found
beneficial .
Diabetic Outlook 8 (1) : 2, January 1973.

73- 2 Lawrence, John H. Acromegaly: method of John H. Lawrence, M.D,
pp 444-445, in Current Therapy, H.F. Conn, Editor; W.B.
Saunders & Co., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1973.

Page 30.
159

73- 3 Lawrence, John H. Acromegaly.

. IRCS (Journal International Research Communications)

f Vol. 1, No. 4 : 19, June 1973.

73- 4 Lawrence, J.H., Chong, C.Y. , Born, J.L., Lyman, J.T., Okerlund,

M.D. , Garcia, J.F., Linfoot, J.A., Tobias, C .A . , and Manougian,E.

Heavy particles in acromegaly and Gushing 's disease.

pp 39-61 in proceedings of 16th Annual Clinical Conference

on Cancer, "Endocrine and Nonendocrine Hormone-Producing

Tumors", The University of Texas at Houston M.D.Anderson

Hospital and Tumor Institute, November 10-12, 1971.

Year Book Medical Publishers, Inc. ; Chicago, 111., 1973.

7.3- 5 Lawrence, J.H., Chong, C.Y., Lyman, J.T., Tobias, C.A., Born,

J.L., Garcia, J.F., Manougian, E., Linfoot, J.A., and Connell.
G.M. Treatment of pituitary tumors with heavy particles,
pp 253-262. in"Diagnosis and Treatment of Pituitary Tumors"
proceedings of a conference sponsored jointly by the National
Institute of Child Health and Human Development and the
National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, January
15-17, 1973. P.O. Kohler and G.T. Ross, Editors. Excerpta
Medica Amsterdam, American Elsevier Publishing Co., Inc.,
New York, 1973.

160

Page 30.

73-3 Lawrence, John H. Acromegaly.

IRCS (Journal International Research Communications)
Vol. 1, No. 4 : 19, June 1973.

73-' 4 Lawrence, J.H. ,. Cnong, C.Y. , Born, J.L. , Lyman, J.T., Okerlund,

M.D. , Garcia;' J.F., Linfoot, J.A., Tobias , C .A. ,.. an]d Mancunian, E,
Heavy particles in acromegaly- and Gushing'^ disease1. '^ s~'
pp 39-6^1'' in proceedings of 16th Annual Clinical Conference
on Cancer, "Endocrine .and Nonendocfine Hormone-Producing
Tumprs", The University of Texas at Houston M.D.Anderson
Hospital and Tumor Institute^XNovember 10-12, 1971.
Year Book Medical Publishers, Inc . ; ;Chicago , 111., 1973.

73- 5 Lawrence, J.H. , Chong,^/C.Y., Lyman, J.T., Tobias, C.A., Born,

J.L., Garcia, J .F v/' Manougian, &?', Linfoot, J.A., and Connell.
G.M. Treatment of pit uitaryxtfumors with heavy pa'rticles.
pp 253-262. in"Diagnosis a-rfd Treatment of- Pituitary Tumors"
proceedings of a conference sponsored jointly by the National
Institute of-"~Child Health and Human Development and the
National Cancer Institute in Bethesda , Maryland, January
15-17, 1973. P.O./fcohler and G.T. Ross, Editors. Excerpta
Medica Amsterdam^ American Elsevier Publishing Co., Inc.,
New Yo/rk, 197-3'

75- J. Lawrence, J.H. Some Early and Recent Experiences in Nuclear

Medicine. George Von Hevesy Memorial Lecture. Pp 2 3- 51 i .Proceedings
llth International Meeting of Society of Nuclear Medicine,
Athens, Greece, September 24-29, 1973. F.K. Schattauer Verlag,
Stuttgart, 1975.

75- 2 Linfoot, J.A., Chong, C.Y., Lawrence, J.H., Born, J.L., Tobias, C. A.

Lyman, J.T. Acromegaly. Chapter 4, pp 191-246, in Hormonal
Proteins and Peptides, Volume III. C.H. Li, Editor. Academic
Press, New York, 1975.

75-3 Lawrence, J.H. , Linfoot, J.A., Born, J.L., Tobias, C.A., Chong,

C.Y., Okerlund, M.D., Manougian, E., Garcia, J.F., and Connell,
G.M. Heavy particle irradiation of the pituitary. pp 272-294,
in Progress in Neurological Surgery, Volume 6. H. j£rayenbuhl,
P.E. Maspes, and W.S. Sweet, Editors. S. Karger, B sel, Switzer
land, 1975.

76- 1 Lawrence, John H. Epilogue. Seminars in Hematology _1J3:

85-86, 1976.

76- 2

Lawrence, J.H., Tobias, C.A., Linfoot, J.A., Born, J.L., and
Chong, C.Y. Heavy-Particle Therapy in Acromegaly and Gushing
Disease. J. Amer. Med . Assoc. 255: 2307-2310, 1976.

161

JHL Published Papers
Page 31

77- 1

Lawrence, J.H. Tobias, C.A., Chong, C., Lyman, J., Born,
J?L! Linfoot, J.A., and Manougian, E. "Heavy Particle
Irradiation of the Pituitary". In: The Pituitary - A Current
Review, 1977, Chapter 26, Academic Press, New York, pp.

INDEX- -John Lawrence

162

acromegaly, 20, 39

Advances in Biological and Medical

Physics, 104
Aebersold, Paul, 16, 27, 28, 29,

30, 32, 43, 44, 52, 57
Akeley, Lewis, 6, 66
Alland, Chris, 1
Allen, Edgar, 15, 16, 21
Alpha Omega Foundation, 111, 113
Alvarez, Luis, 25, 30, 31, 69,

79, 95
American College of Nuclear

Medicine, 109

Amy Lawrence Endowment Fund, 113
Anger camera, 37
Anger, Hal, 42, 79, 94, 95, 96
Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission,

75, 76

Atomic Bomb Commission, 75
Atomic Energy Commission [AEC] ,

62, 74, 75, 76, 80, 81, 82, 91,

93, 106, 108

Balfour, Dr. [Mayo Clinic], 51
Bartol Research Foundation, 8
Bearden, Alan, 102
Berlin, Nat, 94, 101
bevatron, 30, 46
bevelac, 58, 59, 106, 109
Birge, Dr. Raymond, 100
Blake, Dr. Francis, 18, 21, 22
Bohr, Niels, 18, 19
Born, James, 77, 78, 79, 112
Bowker, Chancellor Albert H. , 64
Brigham Hospital, Boston, 14, 18,

45, 61

Brobeck, Bill, 37, 95
Brown, Jerry, 91
Budinger, Tom, 42, 64, 79, 101,

110
Bush, Vannevar, 66

Calvin, Melvin, 36, 37, 79, 81,

83, 92, 93

Campbell, Glenn, 108
Cancer and Medical Research

Foundation, 112
Cassen, Benedict, 94
Castro, Joe, 45, 52
Chaikoff, Helen, 86
Chaikoff, I.L., 27, 36, 85
Childs, Herbert, 6, 55, 62
Clapp, 2

Collier trophy, 69
Compton, Arthur, 66
Cooper, Dr. [Australian], 36
Cornell University, 21
Coutard, Dr. [French], 53
Crocker Lab, 30, 33, 40, 43, 58,

59, 60, 61, 62, 65, 93, 106
Crocker, William H., 30, 33, 44
Curie, 25
Gushing, Harvey, 10, 11, 14, 15,

18, 19, 27, 35, 49
Gushing 's Disease, 16, 18, 19, 39
cyclotron, 12, 13, 17, 28, 29,

30, 31, 32, 35, 36, 44, 45, 46,

47, 48, 52, 53, 58, 61, 62, 65,

73, 95
Cyclotron Specialties Company, 95

Davis, Alva R. , 77

Davis, R.E., 77

de Hevesy, George, 28, 35, 95

DOE [Department of Energy] , 80

Donald, William G., 103

Donner Foundation, 112

Donner Laboratory, 28, 40, 42,
45, 48, 50, 59, 60, 62, 63, 64,
66, 71, 73, 74, 77, 79, 81, 83,
85, 86, 87, 90, 92, 93, 95, 96,
99, 100, 101, 103, 106, 108,
114

Donner, Robert, 48

Donner, William H., 48, 62, 112

Dunham, Charlie, 75

163

Durbin-Heavey, Patricia, 59

Einstein, Albert, 14

Eisenhower, Dwight D., 82

Emge, Ludwig, 51

Erf, Lowell, 41

Evans, Herbert, 27, 32, 33

Failla, Gioacchino, 58

Fermi, Enrico, 14, 72

Fermi Lab, 30, 31

First International Radiological

Meeting, Chicago, 57
Foster, Jonny, 89
Furth, Jacob, 21

Garcia, Joe, 39, 79

Gardner, William Hugh, 15, 16,

20, 21

Ghiorso, Albert, 46, 108
Gofman, John, 75, 80, 87, 88, 89,

90, 91, 92, 94, 101
Grave's Disease, 25, 26, 55
Gray, Hal, 44
Greenberg, D. M., 27, 36
Greganti, Guido, 34
Grendon, Alexander, 86

Hall, Byron, 56

Hamilton, Joe, 25, 28, 33, 39,

40, 54, 55, 59, 60, 67, 68,

101, 102

Hammersmith Hospital, 47
Harvard, 7, 11, 12, 14, 18, 26,

46, 49

Hayes, Thomas, 79, 80, 88, 101
Hempelmann, Louis, 61, 69
Heublein, Dr. [Memorial Hospital],
56
HEW [U.S. Department of Health,

Education and Welfare] , 76
Hopkins, Mark, 88
Huff, Rex, 36, 42, 94, 110

International Cancer Research

Foundation, 112
International Congress of

Radiology, 16

Jacobson, Leon, 96
Joliot, Frederic 25
Jones, Hardin, 41, 43, 59, 67,
68, 70, 77, 79, 80, 85, 86, 101

Kamen, Martin, 25, 36, 105
Kast, Ludwig, 22, 23
Kinsey, Bernard, 33
kV X-ray apparatus, 16, 20

LaFollette, Robert Marion, 3

Landau, Stephen, 94, 101, 104

Larkin, John C., 45

Latimer, Wendell, 59

Lawrence, Amy, 1, 107

Lawrence Berkeley Labs [LBL] , 74,

78, 81, 84, 89, 91, 92, 94, 103
Lawrence, Bertha Marie Hunsdale,

1
Lawrence, Ernest, 6, 8, 9, 12,

13, 14, 16, 17, 26, 27, 29, 30,

32, 33, 34, 42, 44, 48, 51, 59,

60, 65, 66, 79, 81, 87, 96
Lawrence Livermore Lab, 1, 28
Lawrence, Mark, 7
Lawrence, Ole Hunsdale, 1
Lawrence, Steven, 7, 63
Lindgren, Frank, 87, 88
Loeb , Jacques, 100
Loeb, Leonard, 100
Los Alamos Laboratories, 34, 52,

58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 68, 74, 90,

109

Lovelace Clinic, 69
Lovelace, W.- Randy, 66, 68
Lyman, John, 32

Macy Foundation, 22, 28, 48
Maranelli, Dr. [University of
Chicago] , 58

164

Markle Foundation, 23, 28, 48
Martland, Harrison, 38, 39, 57
Mayneord, Val, 42
Mayo Clinic, Minnesota, 16, 36,

51, 56

McMillan, Ed, 25, 30, 31, 79, 81
Mel, Howard C. , 56, 59
Miller, Earl, 47
Myers, William G., 55

NASA, 78, 107

National Academy [of Science], 13

National Institutes of Health

[NIH], 74
Nelson, Warren, 16
Nelson's Syndrome, 39
Neylan, John Francis, 82
Nichols, Alexander, 88
Northrop, John Howard, 96, 97,

98, 99
Northwest Medicine, 38

Oak Ridge Laboratory, 37, 46, 74
Office of Scientific Research and

Development [OSRD] , 72
Ohio State, 55
omnitron, 106, 107
Oppenheimer, Robert, 60, 61, 68
Overseth, 2

Pacelli, Cardinal, 34

Palmer House, Chicago, 16

Panofsky, Peter, 84, 85

Pardee, Arthur, 9

Pasteur, Louis 19

Patt, Harvey, 21

Paul, John R. , 18

Pauling, Linus, 88, 91

Penrose, Boise, 53

Phi Beta Kappa, 7, 49

Pitzer, Kenneth, 83

Pochen, Eric, 26

Polycythemia Vera Study Group, 57

Pond, Ashley, 61

Porter, Langley, 39

Prentice, Ted, 94

Preston, William, 65

Radiation Lab, 32, 33, 47, 49,

50, 63, 65, 81, 93
radioactive iodine, 25, 33
Radioactivity Research Center,

106

Radiology, 45
Raju, Dr., 63, 109
Recent Advances in Nuclear

Medicine, 104
Rice University, 83
Rockefeller Foundation, 48, 98
Rockefeller Institute, 62, 97, 98
Rosen, Louis, 60
Ross, Joe, 28
Ruben, Sam, 36, 37, 92
Russell, William, 76
Rutherford, Lord Ernest, 13, 18,

95

Saenger, Eugene, 106, 110, 111
Saint Olaf's University, 6
Saxon, David, 95
Schwartz, Charlie, 90
Scott, Kenneth, 41, 75, 106
Seaborg, Glenn, 79, 82, 83, 87,

93, 95

Sioux Falls Clinic, 10
Siri, William, 70, 71
Sloan, Dave, 20
Sloan tube, 40, 50, 51
Slotin, Louis, 60, 61
Smith, Ferdinand, 6
Soley, Mayo, 40
Sosman, Merrill, 46
Southern State Teacher's College,

7

Sproul, President, 97, 103
Stanford, 51, 83, 84, 85, 112
Stanley, Wendell, 97
Starr, Chauncey, 90
Stepinac, Cardinal, 34
Stern, Otto, 12

Stevens, Dr. [University of South
Dakota] , 10
Stevens Institute of Technology,

14

165

Stone, Robert S., 35, 40, 43, 44,

46, 47, 51, 52, 54, 55
Strauss, Lewis, 81, 82
Strong, L.C. , 20, 21
Sullivan, Walter, 112
Swann, W.F.G., 8

Tamp 1 in, Arthur, 90

Tata Hospital, Bombay, 63

Teller, Edward, 12, 14, 66, 72,

85, 108, 109

Three Mile Island, 26, 90
Tobias, Cornelius, 39, 41, 43,

44, 46, 59, 67, 70, 72, 79, 95,

101, 102, 106, 107
Treadwell, Anne, 21
Tuttle, Larry, 41

University of California, Los

Angeles, 28, 37, 42, 100, 105

University of California,

Berkeley, 22, 23, 26, 28, 47,
49, 59; Cowell Hospital, 32,
62, 103; Division of Medical
Physics, 59, 83, 84, 85, 99,
101, 102; Life Sciences
Building, 32, 96

University of California, Davis,
37, 58

University of California, San
Francisco, 21, 27, 64, 100

University of Chicago, 58, 96

University of Rochester, 11, 12,
27, 48, 61, 105

University of South Dakota, 6, 7,
8, 9, 49; John Lawrence
Interdisciplinary Symposium at,
9

University of Texas, 33

University of Wisconsin, 3

Warren, Shields, 75

Warren, Stafford, 46

Wasserman, Dr. [Polycthemia Vera

Study Group] , 57

Weaver, Warren, 48

Whipple, George, 27, 36, 48, 105

Wideroe, Rolf, 12

Wilson Cloud Chamber, 31

Wilson, Hugh, 16, 17

Wilson, Robert, 25, 30, 31, 45,

46, 95
Winchell, Saul, 42, 56, 94, 101,

110
Woods, Archie, 23

Yale, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18,
20, 21, 23, 26, 27, 28, 30, 32,
33, 44, 47, 53, 62, 85

Van de Graaf, Robert,
Van Dyke, Donald, 71
Varian, 85
Vermillion, 8
Voeltz, George, 60, 61

20

Sally Smith Hughes

Graduated from the University of California, Berkeley, in
1963 with an A.B. degree in zoology, and from the University
of California, San Francisco, in 1966 with an M.A. degree in
anatomy. She received a Ph.D. degree in the history of
science and medicine from the Royal Postgraduate Medical
School, University of London, in 1972.

Postgraduate Research Histologist, the Cardiovascular
Research Institute, University of California, San Francisco,
1966-1969; science historian for the History of Science and
Technology Program, The Bancroft Library, 1978-1980.

Presently Research Historian and Principal Editor on medical
and scientific topics for the Regional Oral History Office,
University of California, Berkeley. Author of The Virus: A
History of the Concept, Sally Smith Hughes is currently
interviewing and writing in the fields of AIDS and molecular
biology /biotechnology.

2 3412

MSS