RALPH WORKS CHANEY, Ph. D.
PALEOBOTANIST, CONSERVATIONIST
Professor of Paleontology, Emeritus
Curator of Paleobotanical Collection in the
Museum of Paleontology, Emeritus
University of California, Berkeley
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Ralph W. Chaney pictured in 1955
[ above] and since
All uses of this manuscript are covered by
an agreement between the Regents of the University
of California and Ralph Works Chaney, dated January
15, I960. The manuscript is thereby made available
for research purposes. All literary rights in the
manuscript, including the right to publish, are
reserved in the General Library of the University
of California at Berkeley. No part of the manuscript
may be quoted for publication without the written
permission of the University Librarian of the
University of California at Berkeley.
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INTRODUCTION
Ralph Works Chaney was born in Brainerd, a suburb of
Chicago. At that time--l890--Brainerd was in the midst of
miles of prairie alive with birds. He watched them intently
and became aware of surrounding elements of nature. He wanted
to know all the birds, rocks, trees, and stars he saw. His
ecological interest developed and became particularized in the
study of zoology, botany, and geology. Later, his research in
paleobotany combined his interests in botany and geology in de
veloping one of the largest and most significant collections of
Cenozoic plants in the world.
In 1922, as a Research Associate of the Carnegie Insti
tution, Dr. Chaney was quartered in Berkeley and became at
tached to the University of California as Honorary Curator of
the Paleobotanical Collection which he enriched immensely with
material gleaned from numerous field excursions. He joined the
faculty of the University as Professor of Paleontology in 1931
when he became Chairman of the Department of Paleontology.
His early interest in the surroundings of nature matured
into close and continuing association with organizations foster
ing conservation measures. Eis broad interests and enthusiasms
in other directions carried him into student affairs and local
community activities.
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The Regional Cultural History Project of the University
of California, under the academic supervision of Professor Walton
E. Bean of the Department of History and the administrative
supervision of Mr. Marion Milczewski of the General Library,
is engaged in tape-recording and pres-erving interviews with
Californians who have participated in the life of their time
and have made a significant impression on their environment.
One series of these interviews, for the use of Professor alton
E. Bean in his preparation of a Centennial History of the Uni
versity of California, is with individuals identified with the
University whose faculty or administrative duties have had
formative significance in the development of University policy
or distinction.
Professor Chaney's outstanding teaching and research in
paleobotany brought him to the attention of the Regional Cul
tural History project. He was interviewed during the spring
and summer of 1959 at his residence on a heavily wooded, steep,
western slope in the Berkeley hills at 1129 Keith Avenue. In
a room gleaming with smoothly polished wood surfaces and hand-
somely accented by Oriental pictures and objects, Professor
Chaney recounted his experiences in field and classroom, Uni
versity and community. His spare figure, youthful complexion,
and direct blue eyes reflected his energetic and direct ap
proach to life.
Edna Tartaul Daniel,
Interviewer
Regional Cultural History Project
University of California, General Library
Berkeley, March 25>, I960
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TABLE OF CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION
TABLE OF CONTENTS
I ANCESTORS AND FAMILY 1
II EARLY ENVIRONMENT, FIELD AND SCHOOL 7
III THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO AND EXPANDING
FIELD EXPERIENCE 25
IV SCHOOL TEACHING AND GRADUATE WORK 46
World War I - 1914-1918 46
University of Iowa - 1917-1922 56
V CARNEGIE INSTITUTION RESEARCH FELLOW
Paleobotany in the West
VI PALEOBOTANY ABROAD 79
Asia 79
07
Latin America
VII ECOLOGICAL AND GEOLOGICAL APPROACH
TO BOTANY
Quantitative and Qualitative
Aspects
VIII DEVELOPING THE CURRICULUM IN PALEO
BOTANY
Course Content
IX COMMENTS ON EDUCATION
Examinations
The Student In a Large University 142
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Special opportunities in Research
The Lawrence Radiation Laboratory
The Atomic Energy Commission
Installation at Livermore 149
X RADIATION LABORATORY DUTIES 155
XI THE LOYALTY OATH 165
XII NON- ACADEMIC STUDENT RELATIONS 175
The California Club 175
Student Government at the
University of California 177
XIII THE CONSERVATIONIST 207
Natural Areas 208
Separating Resort from Park
XIV IN THE STREAM OF POLITICAL HISTORY
Berkeley Municipal League ?47
XV PORCELAIN 261
XVI THE RALPH WORKS CHANEY FAMILY
BIBLIOGRAPHY: RALPH WORKS CHANEY 270
INDEX
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I. ANCESTORS AND PARENTS
Chaney: There were seven American generations on my
father's side, and ten on my mother's. They
came over from Prance and England respectively,
My great-gradfather, Samuel Chaney died leaving
Anna and some thirteen children, of whom ray grand
father, Ralph, was in the middle. Great-grand
mother Anna Davis Chaney moved out from Virginia
to Ohio, and then to northern Illinois, near
Rockford, in lQ>3k They lived in a log cabin.
All the sons, including my grandfather, became
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farmers. The last of the Chaney farms has been
sold in the last three years.
I am now the only landholder of the old
Chaney property a twenty-acre wood lot, which
will be used as a forest and flower preserve.
It's not being used that way now, but at least
I'm holdirg it, hoplrg that something of the sort
can be done with it.
My father, Fred, was born in l85>lj..
Daniel: Can we go back just a moment now, to your ances
tors who came here. Do you have any knowledge
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Daniel: about why they came?
Chaney: Anna, the widow of Samuel, was the daughter of a
tobacco planter. He turned loose his slaves
around 1800, a little later than 1800 probably,
and moved to Ohio where he died. His daughter,
in the meantime, had been widowed and she kept
on going to Illinois. It was an agriculturally
productive land.
Daniel: Yes, it was a land of opportunity then.
Chaney: They had eight sons. They had facilities for
farming.
Daniel: Yes. Well, this is the story of the march across
the country.
Chaney: In the meantime my mother's family had settled in
Massachusetts.
Daniel: When had they settled there?
Chaney: The first date that I have is 1622.
Daniel: For the usual complex of religious and economic
reasons?
Chaney: Presumably. I note that he is listed as a "free
man," which means, I presume, that he paid his way
over, although I'm not sure that that was it. He
was one of the original poprietors of Andover,
Massachusetts, a very early settles
And down through that group there is a series
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Chaney: of interesting names: Thomas, Brevier, Phelps,
Adams, Birge, Butterfield all British Isles,
you see,
Suzanna was my great-great-grandmother. My
great-grandfather was Charles, born in New York;
and he moved to Illinois where he was an office
holder, a supervisor, assessor, collector, trea
surer, justice of the peace, and so on an out
standing man in the community as were my father's
people. More of that later.
The line of Laura Jeanette, my mother, the
Sanford line, also had nine generations, having
come from Abran to Connecticut in 1637* And the
Sanfords have no end of typical names that came
over on the "Arabella" with Governor Winthrop.
The family names are Powell, Baldwin, Strong,
Mitchell, Spencer, and finally Works, which is
my--
Daniel: Yes, that's your middle name.
Chaney: All Scotch and English in that line. In fact, my
father's line one never knows about the grand
mother's was almost entirely Welsh, Scotch, and
English, though his actual point of origin is aaid
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Ghaney: to be Prance. I suspect he may have gone from
Ireland or England to Prance and stayed awhile
and come on. I am not sure about the actual
French ancestry. As I grow older I come to re
cognize a very Irish aspect In my father's fa
mily. They look more and more like chimpanzees
as they grow older, (laughter), and so I suspect
that the French part of it may be family fable.
All the records show that the point of origin was
Paris, France. I very much doubt if there is
much French: possibly a great-great-great-great-
grandmother. Now Laura, my mother, and Fred were
married in 1885 and lived in Chicago where my
father worked for a wholesale house, Marshall
Field and Company. He did all sorts of things.
Daniel: Marshall F ield was purely a wholesale house?
Chaney: No, it was retail as well, but he worked for the
wholesale part of it, which was a separate store.
In those days, Marshall Field, the original
Marshall Field, was on the job. I may or may not
have seen him, but he was around a great deal and
building up the business. My father got involved
in his later years in getting up the catalogues,
rather than in salesmanship.
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Daniel: Isn't that sales promotion?
Chaney: Yes. And neither he nor my mother had college
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educations. They lived in small towns where such
things weren't usual in the seventies and eighties,
when they would have been going to school.
Daniel: This is true of that time, isn't it? The people
who went to college went for specific training.
Chaney: In law and medicine, of course. The professions.
But there wasn't very much liberal arts.
Daniel: And there certainly were no curricula in business
administration.
Chaney: Oh, no. My mother, in particular, was very well-
informed. She had several unfortunate hobbies,
one of which was foreign missions, but it did
give her a pretty good deal of breadth.
My father was, in one sense, an educated man.
He was a freethinker politically, and in 1912, I
recall, was an ardent Bull Mooser, that was Teddy
Roosevelt's party, you know. (My first vote was
for Teddy Roosevelt. )
Daniel: A freethinker, in the period in which he was
thinking politically, had a good deal to think
about.
Chaney: There was a very vicious strike railroad strike
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Ghaney: which took many lives, one of the great labor epi
sodes.
Daniel: This tradition of free thinking and free thinking
in the political sphere would probably have some
effect on your early childhood. At least you
were hearing about what was going on.
Chaney: My parents were not liberals in the sense of
modern liberals who find it smart to criticize
everything American. They were liberal-minded
about accepting new ideas. They were liberal,
not liberals. There's a distinction. I used to
be a liberal myself until it seemed to be neces
sary to be a little disloyal about it. That sort
of thing I can't stand.
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II. EARLY ENVIRNOMENT. FIELD AND SCHOOL
Daniel: You began your schooling at the last part of the
last century, didn't you?
Chaney: Yes, in 1896. I went to first grade in the little
suburb, Brainerd, which was ten or twelve miles
southwest of the Loop. It was, in effect, a town,
although it was part of the city of Chicago. In
those days we had square miles of prairie around
our home, and there were glacial boulders which
had floated out into the lake in icebergs and
settled there. All of our neighbors and even my
parents assumed that they were meteorites a fan
tasy, but none of them knew anything about geol
ogy. They were granite boulders: they stimulated
my first curiosity about rocks. I remember later
finding out what they were, realizing that we had
been in error.
But essentially, the exactness of science
didn't matter in those days: there were violets,
shooting stars, wild strawberries, meadowlarks 1
nests, and bobolinks' nests on this prairie. The
prafrie chickens were gone, just barely gone. I
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Chaney: saw them later in the Chicago area after I grew a
little older; but it was too late for prairie
chickens at Brainerd.
Daniel: I think it would be interesting to hear just a
little more about the prairie chickens before we
go on.
Chaney: The prairie chicken is a relative of the spruce
partridge or grouse, and also a relative of our
quail. It is a much larger brd than the California
quail, not twice as large, but nearly. Living
on the ppairles Its gray-brown colors fit in well.
At the time I first saw it, probably around 1908
It could have been a year or so later it was al
most extinct in the Chicago area. I found one
nest with the eggs broken, probably hatched at
about the same time. Twice I saw prairie chic
kens very wild--f lying away at a distance. I've
seen many relatives of the prairie chickens the
so-called galinaceous birdssince, in various
parts of the world: Central America, Japan, and
the Philippines. I had never had a more marvelous
sight than seeing this quite large bird eighteen
Inches or thereabouts in length flytog up and
awa y- -when I was a schoolboy wandering around on
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Chaney: the area which is now the Chicago-Midway Airport.
There's nothing left for a prairie chicken there,
only flying planes.
Daniel: What about the distribution of the prairie
chicken?
Chaney: It's an eastern bird. It's a bird of the prai
ries. It comes as far west as the high plains,
the Rocky Mountain foothills, I suppose. I've
never seen it anywhere but in Illinois, but I'm
sure there are a few remaining areas where it
must be fairly common.
There's the spruce partridge in the moun
tains of Colorado and elsewhere, which is not
quite as large as the prairie chicken. Then
there's the sage hen which is larger, and the
wild turkey is the largest of all the American
galinaceous birds.
Daniel: Returning to your home -surroundings, what domes
tic creatures claimed your attention?
Chaney: We had a cow and I started milking her at age
eight when my father was away. I took charge
of her and the calves. We had goats and rabbits
and that sort of thing.
Quite early, when ray sister was in high
school, which would have been when I was about
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Chaney: twelve years old, I began to wonder about the
birds I didn't know. I knew all the common birds
like robins and bluejays, of course, and meadow-
larks and bobolinks. But birds I didn't know I
described and my sister took the descriptions to
her zoology teacher, (this was about 1900) and he
would give her the names of the birds. So I was
beginning to be aware of the elements of nature
around me.
You didn't bring these questions to your teacher?
I dMn't have any who would know the answers.
They were grammar school teachers.
How did you know they wouldn't know?
We never had science of any sort; you must remem
ber that this was the curriculum of a wholly dif
ferent age.
Daniel: What did it encompass?
Ghaney: We had geography, if that's a science. It wasn't
taught as a science. We had physiology, so-called,
but the principal purpose of it, required by law,
was to show how the stomach was rotted by cigar
ettes and liquor. It was a temperance crusade.
Daniel: It was temperance inspired?
Chaney: It wasn't physiology. It wasn't really very much.
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
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Daniel: What besides geography, physiology...?
Chaney: Well, there was arithmetic, of course, and gram
mar. I've always known a great deal about grammar,
Daniel: And of course reading.
Chaney: Reading, spelling, writing.
Daniel: Was your reading extensive?
Chaney: I read constantly.
Daniel: What did you read?
Chaney: I read Robinson Crusoe, Swiss Family Robinson,
Beautiful Joe, the Alcott books, and dozens of
others.
Daniel: I see. And so your ideas outside the school frame
work would tend to bring another source of know
ledge.
Chaney: Well, any ideas having to do with science I have
never thought of this until this minute it hever
occurred to me that ray teachers would know any
thing about science. They never said anything
about it. They could have had a secret hobby, but
it's most unlikely. At any rate, they never told
us anything told me anything that was helpful in
terms of my principal interest, which was every
thing living around me natural history.
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Chaney: So I got it gradually through my older sister's
high school teacher. Then when our family moved
to Hyde Park, a quarter of a mile from tiae univer
sity in Chicago, I lived in a court, a group of
hotises side by side, in one of which, quite by
chance, there was a curator of paleontology at
the Field Museum. I got acquainted with him.
Daniel: What a golden opportunity. How old were you at
this time?
Chaney: I was thirteen when we moved, and I was fourteen
in August.
Daniel: Already at fourteen you had a chance
Chaney: With him I went to the museum. He never did much
for me directly because I wasn't interested then
In fossils, but he took me in and introduced me
to a man named Ned Dearborn, who was the assist
ant curator of ornithology. Dearborn is still a
rather distinguished man in quite a number of dif
ferent fields. I haven't seen him since 1915.
Dearborn showed me the collection of birds. For
the first time I saw scientific specimens. In
fact, on one occasion I helped unpack a collec
tion from Central America in the original boxes.
It was an experience which thrilled me, of course,
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Chaney: birdskins, they were.
Daniel: What were your feelings about your new acquaintance?
Were you fascinated?
Chaney: This was my first contact with the outside world.
I was really a country child. Then we moved into
Hyde Park where I was becoming a city boy, where
my friends were all much more sophisticated than
any I had known.
Daniel: Or so you thought,
Chaney: Oh, they were] They had more money and experi
ence, many of them, at least. But throughout it
all, throughout all of ray high school years, my
interest was primarily in birds, and trees, and
other things, but primarily birds,
Daniel: What about your teachers in high school. Did they
help you more?
Chaney: It's an astonishing thing. They helped me by sym
pathetic attitude, but I didn't take a course in
zoology when I was in high school. There was one,
but it was said not to be very good. And it was
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a laboratory course, and I was interested in field
zoology. So I didn't take a course in zoology,
and I did all my work with birds at the Field
Mus eu m.
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Chaney
Daniel:
Cha ney :
Daniel:
Dr. Dearborn suggested a book, Wild Birds in
the City Parks, which gave the date of arrival of
migrating birds. Lake Michigan naturally is a
barrier to migration. At least half of the birds
came around on the Chicago side and the other half
on the Michigan side. We got a terrific concentra
tion of insectivorous birds, most of our birds
were vireos, warblers, and flycatchers--in May
May 13, ll|., and l, I recently wrote to one of
my few surviving high school teachers, a German
teacher, oddly enough, who excused me one after
noon on the ll+th of May, it must have been. I'd
been out early in the morning. I had to go to
school at 8:30, I suppose. I had German In the
afternoon and she excused me. Well, I remember
to this day the remainder of it the bird, a very
beautiful, orange -colored warbler (Blackburnian)
I saw that afternoon, which I wouldn't have seen
if she hadn't excused me.
You carried on these activities within your own
frame of
Completely within myself.
--reference, exploring the world around you. But
you didn't do it through formal education.
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Chaney: I had no zoology whatever.
Daniel: And you didn't belong to a youth group or any
thing of this sort?
Chaney: There were no Boy Scouts or anything of that sort.
Daniel: DM you share this with anyone in your family?
Chaney: No yes, ray mother was highly sympathetic. My
father was Inclined to think that I would starve
to death if I didn't learn something useful.
Daniel: So you went about it quietly, then?
Chaney: But my mother was highly sympathetic. My father
was completely cooperative, and with very limited
means educated me and my sisters at a time when
college educations were still not at all univer
sal, although they were coming to be more promi
nent, of course.
Daniel: Now, all through high school you were doing this
on your own, you were exploring. Did you go fur
ther afield from bird observation, or did you con
fine your activities to this?
Chaney: Almost entirely birds, although I was learning a
good many plants.
Daniel: Because these were the things that birds had food
or...
Chaney: Because I saw them with the birds.
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Cha ney :
Daniel:
Cha ney:
There were one or two rather Intelligent friends,
mostly older than I, whom I met looking for birds.
We didn't call It birdwatching in those days. We
just called It 'birding. 1
Sir ding I see. Were these other boys, or were
they college men?
There was a married couple--two Quakers. There
was a physician, who died within the past six
months, a very old man, a rather eminent eye,
ear, nose, and throat man from Chicago. There
was a young girl of about my age who was a pal,
a wealthy and somewhat ilsstpated but very fine
boy whom I knew well, and who was pretty inter
ested but somewhat lazy and didn't get out early
in the morning. I used to get out at four o'clock.
Then later I met a man whom I knew in college,
a year or two older than I, who didnH know any
more than I did about It but was older, and car-
rfed a certain weight of authority that comes with
age,
In general, I didn't talk much about this In
high school because none of my good friends knew
anything about birds or had any Interest In them,
and when I did mention occasionally that I couldn't
do something because I was going to look for bircb,
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Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel 1
Chaney :
Daniel:
Cha ney ;
I was ridiculed. They were good friends, but there
was much laughter about the fact that I was going
to look for birds.
What was everyone else doing? What was the ac
cepted activity of a young boy of your age in high
school? Was the athletic program important?
A good many of the boys were on athletic teams.
I was not, in high school.
And you weren't interested, apparently, in doing
the things that everybody
Not very much in girls, though by the time I be
came a junior I certainly went to the junior prom
and the senior prom, and I suppose I went to four
or five dances a year. We used to go to 'call'
on girls in those days. We used to sit apart,
not holding hands, or getting anywhere at all in
terms of what we are told of modern youth. Just
'calling,' talking, I suppose, which isn't a bad
idea. Perhaps I was very much more of a bore
than I realize. I've wondered since.
What about your studies in high school? Did they
interest you particularly, or did they just sort
of slide by?
Latin, mathematics, and Englishall were ex
tremely interesting.
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Daniel: Did you work hard?
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Chaney: Oh, hard enough, I got
Daniel: You didn't study terribly hard for long hours?
Chaney: No, I suppose I got as many A's as B's, and prob
ably not any C's.
Daniel: School was no problem. You enjoyed it,
Chaney: None whatever. It's what I expected. Everybody
did it, I did it as a matter of course. Every
morning at four, and as soon as school was out,
I beat it for the Wooded Island, The time belt
was a little differently placed with regard to
Chicago so that at four o'clock it was beginning
to get light. By the time I walked a mile or so
to the Wooded Island, it was light enough to see
birds. Early morning was the best time, I have
written records of all this, I could tell you
what birds I saw on almost any day of any year
between 1905 and 191$.
Daniel: Summer and vacation time you had opportunity for
more observation.
Chaney: We went to Michigan.
Daniel: Why did you go to Michigan, Was this the place
that everybody went to?
Chaney: It was cooler, and it was less settled than our
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Chaney: part of Chicago which was beginning to grow up.
Of course, living in Hyde Park it was very citi
fied. Michigan was just in the right place there
were wild berries and beautiful forests.
Daniel: You went for the whole summer?
Chaney: We went for the whole summer. While I was in high
school I met, through his son, Charles Otis Whit
man, a very eminent zoologist, whom I discussed
with your father-in-law [ Professor J. Prank Daniel,
Chairman, Department of Zoology, 1936-1914-2], Whit
man was working in a vague way, as they were doing
in those days, working in genetics, and using doves
and flickers as his laboratory material. He had
some red-shafted flickers, the western flicker, but
oddly enough he didn't have any yellow-hammers,
the ye How- shafted birds flickers of the Illinois
area. Well, I got acquainted with Frank Whitman,
the son, and he told roe his father had some pas
senger pigeons which were, practically speaking,
extinct. I went to the Whitman backyard which
had hundreds of pigeons of many kinds In it, and
some flickers, and I saw those passenger pigeons.
I have actually seen two live passenger pigeons,
though they were sterile olfl females just about
ready to die. Imethis father, and I learned.
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Chaney: that his father wanted flickers, and of course
I kn*w where I could get flickers. So I walked
out to a flicker's nest that I had found. First
I took a streetcar ride out lllth Street to the
outskirts of Chicago and then I walked for at
least two hours which is certainly amazing to
think of and brought ba ck those flickers. In
fact, I went once and they weren't quite ready,
and I went back again when they were the way
Professor Whitman said they should be, with
feathers almost fully grown. To my amazement,
because I had honestly never thought of such a
thing I had sold rabbits and all sorts of things,
cucumbers and garden stuff but I had never thought
of being paid for anything so delightful as get
ting flickers. To my astonishment Professor
Whitman gave me five bucks, which was really an
enormous amount. It was the first five dollars
that I had ever had in one lump.
He told me then that he would give me five
dollars more for every batch of flickers I got
him. So that turned me pro, and I got him maybe
four batches that year, or maybe that year and
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Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
the next, and I also used to get ant eggs from
ant nests to feed them. He showed roe how to do
that
You were in business.
Daniel:
Now, this brought me in contact with a truly great
man. Dearborn and the curator of paleontology
were second-raters in science, though Dearborn has
had a rather eminent career in public life and ser
vice. But Whlitman was certainly top-flight. He
was a member of the National Academy, He was an
old man and a benign man, and often, after I had
come in all hot and dirty from one of those
flicker excursions I stayed to luncheon with him
and he talked to me.
Did you appreciate his eminence at the time?
Yes. He was terrific. I appreciated him all
right. He was different from anybody I had ever
seen. A very fine -looking man, old, white-haired--
Did you ask him questions? Did you feel you were
in the presence of someone who was really a foun
tain of knowledge?
I was very shy. I doubt that I had much of any
thing to say. I don't remember asking him ques
tions.
You were just thrilled to be there.
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Chaney: Several years later when I was In college I had a
somewhat similar experience. I knew much more by
that time. While I was still an undergraduate I
found a layer of Iron-bearing sand up at one of
the Michigan summer places where we went. I
wrote to--I knew enough by that time for I had
had a course in geology a Michigan geologist,
and he made an appointment to see me in Chicago
when I returned. And I saw him. I was at the
home of Thomas Crowder Chamberlin, Charles J.
Chamberlain was the botanist who later became
my teacher. Well, * was an undergraduate then
and he taught only graduate classes. I had the
same feeling with Chamberlin, who was a very
philosophical gentleman, also elderly, much more
elderly than my parents. He was, I suppose, crowd
ing seventy. I attended his eightieth birthday
party shortly before he died.
So over a space of four years, from Whitman to
Chamberlin, I had much the same feeling. In fact,
I could even confuse those two men because they
represented to me a vastly greater amount of know
ledge than I had ever met in anyone before. I had
by that time seen some smart guys who knew all
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Chaney ;
Daniel :
Chaney :
about everything, but they weren't things I was
interested in.
As you were working along, and having this inspir
ation, did you formulate your ideas about what
you were going to do next?
Well, I hopedthis maybe sounds a little 'smarty 1
--but I remember particularly that in my sophmore
English composition course, that would be 1913,
I wrote a theme about what I wanted to get out
of a college education, the corny subject given
by the teacher James Weber Linn, a marvelous
teacher and a well-known author--and I got an
'A in the course. I got only two 'A's 1 in
English. Well, that was two out of three, at
that, because I took only three courses in col
lege. But the subject of that theme--what I
wanted to do was to learn to recognize all the
birds, trees, rocks, insects, stars, everything
I could. That was my ambition as a sophmore. I
was taking zoology, just beginning to get going
in botany. As a junior to college I took geology.
I got no instruction in high school which had
anything to do with my major interest. I was
taught by Dearborn in the Field Museum, indirectly
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by Whitman, by several older and very fine people
that I saw, who used some scientific names though
they didn't know birds as well as I did.
Then clear through elementary and high school you
were on your own.
I was absolutely on my own, except for my mother,
and a little peripheral help.
Your sisters didn't walk with you or share your
interests?
We used to go to what we called The Woods together
and they knew the common birds but weren't espe
cially interested. They picked flowers and straw
berries, of course. We used to pick flowers for
Decoration Day and go to the cemetery I remember
particularly.
This was the family activity, but your explorations
were on your own.
Yes, it was almost all alone
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III. THE UNIVERSITY OP CHICAGO AND
EXPANDING FIELD EXPERIENCE
Daniel: When you went from high school to college did you
Chaney :
Daniel:
Cha ney :
go to the place that you felt would give you the
best training in your field?
Yes. I didn't think very much about where I should
go. We were living a quarter of a mile from the
University of Chicago. The tuition was $lj.O a
semester, and by the time I was a sophomore I had
a scholarship so I didn't pay any tuition.
As your interests expanded and you became speci
fic in your conraana of the attention of distin
guished people in this field, did your father have
a growing interest in what you were doing as your
own interests became more defined?
The devil of it is my father died when I was
twenty-seven years old and before I was really es
tablished professionally, though I was earning my
living, and earning pretty nearly as much as he
was. I was teaching at the Francis Parker School
at the time and it was just a stopgap for me, no
thing I wanted to do indefinitely. It was inter
esting and highly valuable. I learned a great deal
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26
Cheaney: but it simply was not anything permanent. My
father never knew what I was going to do. I re
member one of his friends saying that he was kind
of worried about whether I'd ever be able to earn
a living.
Daniel: Wasn't he aware that you were commanding the at
tention of men who were really quite outstanding?
Chaney: I don't think I commanded their attention. They
commanded mine.
Daniel: They did have a relationship with you. Didn't
your father really know what you were thinking?
Chaney: I suppose not. It's a terrible thing, isn't it?
Daniel: NO.
Chaney: Oh, I think so. I think it's strictly terrible.
Daniel: Well, I know, but this goes on all the time.
Chaney: My mother knew a good deal about it, my father
less. Ny father was an extremely hard worker.
He had a pretty hard time making ends meet on
what seems a pitifully low salary. It's amaz
ing what he did with it. He was Investing all
his savings in some Chicago real estate which he
bought, and which increased greatly in value.
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Daniel:
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He left to us children far more than I shall leave
to mine in terras of dollar value on the most-
meager sort of salary, on , I'll tell you, two
thousand dollars a year imagine, four children,
and he put them through college.
But this was not unusual at that time.
No, it wasn't. I did a lot of work by the time
I was a junior. I was assisting in the zoology
course, the bird course, and by the time I was a
senior I was assisting in what was called 'general
biology, 1 botany, zoology, and laboratory, which
was considered a much higher-level job, although
I didn't like it as well, but it paid $180, $200.
A semester?
They were quarters. I mean $100 a quarter*
Pour hundred a year.
It might have been four hundred.
Well, this was all right. You were living at
home at the time you were going to college, so
you just had to meet your tuition expenses, and
you had a scholarship. You had to have money for
books.
Before I got through, when I was a senior in 1911,
a somewhat older student sold me a camera and I
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Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney;
started taking pictures. I don't think I told
you this the other day. I got the bright idea
of going to see the Sunday editor of the Chi
cago Tr ibune . They were running a column on
birds, and it was terrible, simply terrible
it was a lot of bughouse folklore. I went down
and told him so. Burns Mantle, the dramatic
critic, was with this editor, I now realize
he was just a young punk himself. So he said
he would give me ten dollars a week for writ
ing a certain amount, I suppose five hundred
words, maybe more, and two or three pictures.
So I went out every week for about ten, maybe
twelve weeks the year I was a junior in college
and took pictures. It was a very long walk. The
whole day was consumed. Then of course I had to
write up my story, develop ray pictures, make my
prints, and take them down to the Tribune in
the Loopall for ten bucks. It's really amaz
ing. But it was big money, terribly big money.
The interesting thing is that you were applying
what you were learning,
I was already a pro, you see.
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Daniel: Did the people with whom you worked In the Univer
sity live up to your expectations?
Chaney: They failed me here and there because they were
more interested, no fault of theirs, in labora
tory work than in field work, and I was interes
ted in field work.
Daniel: Was this true in general of the sciences, more
interest in the laboratory?
Chaney: Yes, in those days. My professor, still living,
Professor R. M. Strong, whom I've seen within
the year In Chicago, a very old man, was inter
ested in field work, but even he was primarily
Interested In bird anatomy. It's a little arro
gant to say so, but I knew more about live birds
than he did.
Daniel: It isn't arrogant at all.
Chaney: He knew more about the ins ides of birds than I
will ever know, but I knew birds in those days
better than I have ever known anything since,
even my present field. I had complete mastery
of it. It was, I suppose, in terms of one's
growing up, a wonderful thing to realize, al
though I didn't go around singing ray own praises,
as I am now, but it was probably a good thing to
realize, when somebody else was with me, that :
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than most of the people who were with me,
Daniel: You were developing a subject at this time, you
see.
Chaney: I have never used it, except for fun. I was told,
and I believed it, that there was no future in i.
There would be now in national parks or in zoology
departments, but in those days there wasn't, and
I could earn a meager supplement to my living by
taking rich kids out on Saturday mornings or
this Chicago Tribune thing, I suppose as an un
dergraduate I may have earned a total of $1500.
That's a fairly high estimate.
Daniel: Yes, I know, but it was still quite a bit of
money.
Chaney: And it was all professional. It was income from
the field in which I had excellence.
Daniel: It never occurred to you that you were doing some
thing you shouldn't be doing. I mean, from the
beginning your interests marched right along
Chaney: Well, it was what I wanted to do, and
Daniel: And there was no question about it.
Chaney: My father never discouraged me and my mother
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Chane y :
Daniel:
Chan ey:
Daniel
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
actively encouraged me. I know ray father would
have been glad to have seen me become a lawyer.
This was the age
I clerked at Marshall Field's retail during Christ
mas vacations and before Christmas. I would duck
out of school early and make a dollar and a quar
ter a day just imagine, paying carfare and lunch
--well, anyway, a dollar and a quarter a day, and
I was real good at it. I was in the basement in
notions. I outsold most of the regulars there
I was an eager beaver in my first job--I had a
wonderful time. They wanted me to stay and wanted
me to come back when I got through college, but
of course it was a terrible jungle from my stand
point.
And it never occurred to you to do anything but
what you really wanted?
I changed from ornithology to botany as I got to
be a junior and then I changed to geology. I had
scholarships in all of those subjects.
How about the transition from one to the other?
It was natural. Geology is. botany and zoology,
that is, the paleontology side of it is. I've al
ways been a paleontologist. There was no break at
all. The breaks were in French and trigonometry
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Daniel:
Chaney :
Dan ie 1 :
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
and that sort of thing, which had no immediate,
no apparent usefulness to me. Of course they
were useful and I was foolish not to study them
more.
But I took, in those days, all the science I
could take. No one would get away with it nowa
days in any university. I slighted history and
never took a course in philosophy or economics,
for example, never in my life.
Well, this was true of the curriculum at this time,
I was just soaking up science. I had enough to
graduate in botany, probably nearly enough in
zoology, and I graduated in geology. We had under
graduate majors.
Actually, did you feel any lack as your life went
on?
Well, my wife is a historian and an economist and
so I've picked it up from her, and you have
friends, naturally, and reading. It would have
been betterbut
Well, why better? You did get this in some other
way.
.
I'm satisfied not to have had the philosophy be
cause it seems that most of It Is just semantics,
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Chaney: or anyway whatever it is. But the economics I
had political science, terribly dull, and a course
in history, extremely dull, yes, it was the wrong
kind of history, and there was a longwinded talk
er, and I was the wrong sort of student.
In fact I got A's in all my sciences and B's
or C's in all my other subjects,
Daniel: And you had no inclination to explore except in
the fields which interested you?
Chaney: I never took any courses except those required,
outside of science.
Daniel: You had a definite interest which carried you on
outside the framework of your elementary school
and of your high school. You took the things in
college which you really wanted to take. You
manufactured your own curriculum?
Chaney: Certainly from the time I entered high school 1
pushed everything else aside. In high school I
was regimented and I studied my Latin religiously
and always got superior grades '90s' I think
there were numbered grades then, and always had
my grammar cold, which was a good idea. I wish
I'd studied more language French and German
but I didn't, but I can manage.
u
The only thing I was really interested in was
.
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Chaney: getting outdoors and I did it, except in the coldest
parts of the winter and on rainy days, every day
of the year. My records would show three hundred
days a year.
Daniel: As you went along through the university did you
consider consciously what you were going to do?
Ghaney: I had several extremely good teachers: John M.
Coulter in botany; Rollin D. Salisbury in geology
--they were outstanding teachers. And a less for
mal, but even more stimulating man, Henry Chandler
Cowles in botany and ecology, gave me the first
concept of ecology, which has been, of course, my
guiding star, my major interest, and was even
then, though I had never heard of it before.
Cowles was a marvelous field man. He was exactly
what I wanted. That was when I was a junior, or
a senior, I can't be sure, in college. At any
rate, those three men are the three men who af
fected me most; Salisbury was a very exact man,
a martinet, the pouncing type; Coulter was be
nign and orderly and his lectures were beautiful
thirgs, the way he developed a subject, the or
ganization; Cowles was an expert field man, ex
tremely well organized, too. His lectures and
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Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
field trips were much less formal. In fact, my
relationship with him was wholly different than
with the other two. They were at a distance;
Bowles was very close.
You had a bachelor of science, I presume, at the
end of your university work?
Yes, and I was given a scholarship paying tuition
for the next year.
For graduate study?
For graduate study. So I went to the university
a fifth year, taking geology only. Incidentally,
my physics and chemistry I enjoyed very much, es
pecially chemistry, and did A work. Well, they
were completely off the beam (in terms of these
subjects today), but they were beautifully taught
courses, e specially one course in chemistry. Phy
sics was not so well taught. But I got fundamen
tals in the physical sciences. Never enough math
ematics, unfortunately. But I haven't really
missed it. I think that mathematics and statis
tics should both be hammered down everyone's
throat. But I was too busy with geology to take
all the math I should have taken. Fortunately I
did take plenty of chemistry and an adequate amount
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36
Chaney: of physics, barely adequate. As a fifth-year stu
dent, a first -year graduate student, I was going
into geology.
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
That summer, the summer of 1913* I went to
Alaska with the U.S. Geological Survey. I had
taken the civil service examination for geologic
aide and failed it by a point or two. There were
a limited number of people wanted. They took a
few of the best and failed all the rest of us. I
failed it anyway I'm not giving any excuses. But
I was the only one of our group that got a job.
There just weren't many appointments that year.
I was appointed to do geologic work but with a
cook's rating, which evaded the civil service re
quirement. The head of the party knew me and
wanted me to go with him. It was one of those
amusing things. It didn't matter whether I passed
or not. Well, it's very poor philosophy for the
young and I haven't told ray children about that.
I don't know why you say that
I think they should pass their examinations.
You'll never know how the examination was arranged.
There's no discredit in failing it. The passing
grade was 70, and I got 68.5 or something like
,
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37
Chaney: that. Nevertheless, it ' s a blot on my record.
Daniel: It isn't at all. I think it's an ornament. Now
we'll go on from there.
Chaney: That brought me to the Pacific Coast and through
the Inland Passage on the "Admiral Simpson," the
famous old ship. There were several professional
geologists on board, some of them not so very much
older than I, some of them much older, some very
eminent men. They're almost all dead now; Brooks,
and Martin, and Sargent, and Kapps; well they're
all gone long ago; wonderful men. We packed in
to the Matinuska coal field and made a detailed
map. It was very hard work. That's the region^
the Matinuska valley, where the settlement was
made, the agricultural settlement where there
are very beautiful farms nowadays. There were no
roads then. We packed in with ten or a dozen
horses, and I saw my first bears and moose and
mountain sheep, and ate most of them at one time
or another. At Knik, a frontier town that is com
pletely gone I am sure, we stayed at a roadhouse
which had accomodations for forty men and a hun
dred dogs according to the sign outside. It was
very crude. There would be a platter of moose,
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Daniel
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
an enormous platter of chunks of moose steak,
which were mostly tough.
It was primitive and very glamorous as you can
imagine.
Was this your first experience away from home?
No, my first one was at the end of my junior year
when I went out to South Dakota with the s outh
Dakota Geological Survey. That was the West in
a limited sort of way. There were new birds:
western meadowlarks and different flycatchers and
so on, and I rode a cow pony for hundreds of miles
from halfway across South Dakota to the Black
Hills and back again.
It was a natural history survey. We were col
lecting birds and plants and stuff. It wasn't
very well-organized or important. The man in
charge of it was this older man, who had been bird-
ing with me in the old days. I see him still. He
teaches at the University of Indiana, but that's
of no consequence here.
But your excursion then was your first step?
Yes. The summer I graduated (a year later) I went
to the Rockies on a geology field trip for about a
month or six weeks, so I got to the Rocky Mountains
.
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39
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney :
the next time.
Alaska in 1913 was my first sight of the ocean,
the first sight of tides, the first sight of spruce
trees in any number, so it was a marvelous experi
ence.
Very rich.
The only other one comparable was my first trip
to Asia in 1925.
It opened up a new world.
The angle of intake was like that (indicates wide
angle). But the Alaska trip was wonderful. We
stayed until it snowed, I got back too late to
get into the university. That's a strange thing.
^ may be a little mixed on ray dates, but I'm sure
that was the summer of 1913.
Anyway, after that trip I knew that I wanted
to be a geologist and do field work. I knew then
numerous men who were doing field work in the sum
mer and teaching. There were only three choices:
one would be a geological survey, which didn't ap
peal to me very much; another was teaching; and
another was oil geology. That was in the big boom
of Venezuela and we had a teacher, a Calif ornian
from Stanford, Ralph Arnold, a very eminent man
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Chaney: still living, I'm sure, although I haven't seen
him ever in California. Ralph Arnold taught a
course at Chicago in oil geology, and almost all
of us who were in the class and did good work had
a chance to go down to Venezuela with one of his
companies as oil geologists. That was a promis-
ing alternative, but when it came along my father
was mortally ill and I didn't want to leave, and
by the time he had died and I was free to go I
was getting Involved with my present wife and so
I was leaning more to the education side of it as
the best of the three alternatives. Oil geology
paid very well; I would have had $25>0 a month,
and my first job in a university was |l600 for
.
ten months.
I put in another year the year 1913-191it
studying mostly invertebrate fossils.
The 1913 summer geological survey job took me
to the ocean for the first time and I realized how
little I knew about the fossil invertebrates that
I had been studying. It also took me into the
Matinuska coal field where I saw ray first plant
fossils. The first experience emphasized my lack
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Daniel:
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Daniel;
Chaney ;
of knowledge of things marine, as I was an Illi-
noisan, and the other, the discovery of plant
fossils in the Matinuska coal field, fossils of
the general sort that I've been working with ever
since, that is, the later Cenozoic Age fossils.
You viewed a new field, unknown to you.
I had no instruction in it. There was no paleo-
botany in Chicago in those days, and there was
very little mention of it in the textbooks. Some,
but not as much as there is nowadays.
You apparently developed a burst of interest in
this subject at this time.
Well, I liked botany better than zoology. Also,
I had received, as I told you last week, a ter
rific inspiration, really a soul-stirring experi
ence, with Henry Chandler Cowles, with whom I
took two courses, two or three, and he took us
off on field trips. For the first time he got me
in touch with environment as a controlling factor
in life, ecology, in other words. The ecologic
idea interested me from the very start, and plant
ecology interested me more than animal ecology,
though Victor E. Shulford was then my teacher in
animal ecology at Chicago, and was a man whom I
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In class, running the lantern and that sort of
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thing, so I learned quite a bit about animal eco
logy* but land animals have the unfortunate habit
of moving around and getting out of context; plant
fossils are rooted In the ground. They can't es
cape, and where they are found, that's where they
belong. So plant ecology has always had some ad
vantages, although obviously we couldn't do with
out both of these fields in any real analysis of
ecology.
I use animal ecology whenever I can. For ex
ample, In my latest paper I have a long, for me,
theoretical discussion of the place of grass on
the borders of the deciduous forests in the Mio
cene. (This is in Oregon. We're fully away from
Alaska, and I'm talking about the use of animal
ecology.) All right, In the adjacent deposits
there are any number of grass-chewing horses,
rhinoceroses, oreodents, various of the herbi
vorous mammals which must have had grass, and
yet there's very little record of grass In the
rocks. I went back to Daniel Boone's discussions
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Daniel:
Chaney :
of the undisturbed grasslands of Kentucky and Illi
nois when he came west Boone and others. I have
pieced together such inferences as can properly
be made in a scientific paper and have concluded
that on the uplands, above the forests and gul
lies there may have been flats, tablelands with
grass. Later this was confirmed by the finding
of pollen in the lowland deposits. One of my
Ph. D. students later found pollen and confirmed
the presence of grasses quite definitely.
Well, this is all part of the development of your
choice of p.eobotany as your field, and I think
you've brought out quite clearly the inspiration,
on the one hand, and on the other hand, the In
clination to work In a field which has a defi-
nite framework.
I had talked to one of my fellow students, at
least six years older than I, who by this time
was married and had a child. He was teaching at
the University of Washington,
He came back to the University of Chicago about
19l while I was teaching at the Parker School.
He was a good friend and sympathetic, and when he
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Chaney: went out to ^regon with a field class In the sum
mer of 1916 he told me he would look for fossil
plants. I'd expressed a great interest in them.
Before very long I got an enthusiastic letter
from him saying that he had found a deposit on
Eagle Creek in the Columbia River gorge which con
tained what he thought were excellent fossils.
So I got together the necessary funds (they
were my own funds) for a trip to Oregon.
Daniel: Was this the first trip?
Chaney: That was in the summer of 1916, yes, the first
trip on a fossil plant quest.
I spent a few days looking by myself and then
was joined by Bretz, J. H. Bretz, who is still a
good friend, and he took me to the very fine lo
cality which supplied material for ray Ph,D. thesis.
He knew nothing about fossil plants. I knew a lot
about plants for example, I found a black oak
which I have here which is the first good fossil
I ever found.
Daniel: This Is it ? (fragment showing imprint of oak leaf)
Chaney: This is it. I call It the "oak of the covenant."
We keep It In a sacred place.
Daniel: It Is a beautiful thing.
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Chaney: It is. This oak and the leaves that went with it
were the basis of my first writing, a little paper
In the Journal of Geology. I was facing the pros
pect, as were all the men of ray age, of going in
to World War I at that time, so I hustled through
a paper just to cash in on my results of the sum-
mar's field work in case I had to leave, in case
I never came back.
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IV. SCHOOL TEACHING AND GRADUATE WORK
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
World War I: 191U-1918
What was the source of funds for your trip to Ore
gon?
I paid for this trip myself. I was teaching at
the Parker s chool, and had some money.
Was the Parker School a secondary school or a col
lege?
It was from kindergarten through high school
thirteen grades.
How did you happen to be there?
I was recommended by ray professor, Professor Salis
bury, who was considered one of the best teachers
in the world, and I guess he was. He thought I
was a little nuts, I guess, with my interests in
birds and plants, rather than in invertebrates and
rocks. I was interested in all these things. He
told me I'd never amount to very much, so perhaps
he thought it would be a good idea to get me into
this rich kids' school.
This was a private school?
Oh, very much so. It was subsidized by Mrs. Emmons
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Harvester and Reaper that family, a very fine wo-
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Daniel: Was it a large schopl?
Chaney: No, it was a school of about 00, lj.00 or 5>00. It's
a little bigger now.
I was in charge of natural science there in all
the grades. I was there three years. I organized
the curriculum. At least I recommended it to the
teachers. We had a sequence of subjects and fig
ured out what was best at the outset and what was
best to finish with. I taught the high school cur
riculum courses in science, the general sciences,
we called it then, a mixture of biology, physics,
chemistry, and meteorology. That w as for three
years following 191^-, and I made good pay, about
$1600 a year, which was marvelous. I commuted
from the South Side up to the North Side.
One other thing I did was take these kids on
field trips. There were enough wealthy kids so
that there always were motor cars. We would go
to all sorts of places: to a big dairy farm, or
to a forest somewhere, or out on the beach to see
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yards to see some of the manufacturing processes.
Daniel: This was unusual at the time, wasn't it?
Chaney: Yes, it was. I'd never had a field trip in ray
life until I got to college, but here kindergarten
children were taken on field trips.
On the whole the teachers and the principal
were high-minded, idealistic, extremely competent
people. It was fast company in terms of my years.
For instance, the Parker idea of motivation is now
what they call the activity program oh, there's
another word in the jargon for it now. Anyway,
motivation meant to have a reason for doing every
thing.
This is motivational psychology.
Well, c olonel Parker was the originator of it, in
writing at least. His followers were many and this
school was founded by Mrs. Elaine so his ideas could
be taught, and they still are taught,
Daniel: Did you have any idea about the extent to which
your work in this school might have had influence
on curricula in other schools of the area.
Chaney: We had a profound influence on curricula all over
the United States.
Daniel:
Chaney:
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Chaney: We had a series of publications. I have a long re
port in one of them, I don't suppose I even own
it any more. I haven't seen It for years. There
would be a curriculum of teaching in history, a
curriculum on teaching of science. For all I know,
these were both in one of these volumes. I'm sure
science wasn't a complete volume.
We put forth our ideas not only my own rather
simple Ideas, because I was just a kid myself, I
was 2i|. 2lj. to 2? years old.
Daniel: How did you happen to bring these to publication?
Chaney: It was done by the school,
Daniel: And did the school always do this or did this seem
to be a good idea of something unusual worth pub
lishing?
Chaney: They did it while I wa>s there. Whether they're
still doing it I don't know. I suppose they are.
These manuals of education have played a very im
portant part. I think there are perhaps better
sources now, but in those days this was pioneering.
Daniel: Who subscribed to the manual?
Chaney: I suppose they were sold. Maybe they were given
away. I had nothing to do with it. I was a junior
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Chaney: member, one of the youngest members of the staff.
Many oeople on the staff were old enough to be my
parents, fine, old, and not dried-up teachers.
They were almost all of them first-class. There
was music of the finest sort Including special
programs by first-class musicians who may have
cost a hundred dollars, a fabulous amount in those
days to get out to the school. There was drama
by first-class coaches and plays were put on--a
Christmas play, and all sorts of plays.
Every morning, it was at ten o'clock, I guess,
there was what was called a morning exercise when
the whole school, as much of it as could be got
into the auditorium, appeared together for a pro
gram. Frequently, very frequently, I was emcee
for those programs. Whenever a program failed,
as it occasionally did, I was, so to speak, in
the wings to go on extemporaneously and put on a
show.
We always had what were considered important
visitors. There was scarcely a day that I taught
that there weren't visitors in my room which was
kind of rough for a young kid- -from all over the
United States,
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Daniel: This, in other words, was rather an example as a
school.
Chaney: It was a model school, a modern school with modern
methods. I am sure that if we wanted to do so we
could find out from the Parker School how many of
their publications have been issued, we could get
a report on their visitors, perhaps over a period
of forty or fifty years, the numbers and the places,
It would be a very compelling record.
Daniel: While you were participating in a teaching experi
ence, you reached far beyond Chicago, developing
your specific interest in fossils and paleobotany.
It seems to me quite a complicated arrangement of
Ideas.
Chaney: I would teach there during the daytime, leaving
about seven or a quarter to seven, get over there
about eight, get through about two or three, go
back to the South Side, where the University is
located, and do a little work before dinner
had dinner with my girl friend who is now Mrs.
Chaney and then work in the evening on my fos
sils.
Daniel: At the same time you were preparing to qualify
for the Ph.D. , weren't you?
Chaney: Definitely moving toward it, yes.
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Daniel: You were handling this very complicated existence,
apparently quite handily.
Chaney: There's one more very comical thing that happened
to me in the summer of 1915. I hadn't been drafted
yet. There was a lot of talk about the need for
agriculture, and I was a little fed up with paleon
tology, that was before I really got into paleo-
botany in 1916, so I went down to an employment
agency down on the bowery of Chicago wearing old
clothes, and hired out as a farmhand and went to
work on a farm doing farm labor. I wasn't doing
it, please be assured, for strictly patriotic
reasons. I had in the back of my mind the fact
that I might want to be a farmer. I had always
been interested in animals and plants from a food
standpoint and from a crop standpoint, too. Also,
although I may not have realized it, I think I
did though, I picked a place in Illinois near
where my ancestors had settled, the same farming
area. But I decided I liked geology better af
ter that summer. You see, I was feeling around
and it cost me nothing and I made a little money,
even, and I strengthened my shoulders tossing
bundles.
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Daniel: Your studies there were in abeyance at this time,
weren't they?
Chaney: That was during the summer, the summer of 19l5
Daniel: And you didn't have summer sessions?
Chaney: I didn't that summer, no
Daniel: I think it might be interesting to consider the war
in this period.
Chaney: That was the summer of 19liu I was down in Mis
souri working for the Missouri Geological Survey
invertebrate paleontology-
Daniel: How did you always slip into these geological sur
vey jobs? Had you established a reputation?
Chaney: Well, different people had asked me to go, Stuart
Weller, my professor, asked me to go on this. He
was working there for the Missouri Geological Sur
vey. It was a great place for fossils. So I had
been there--it was August, wasn't it, when the war
started?--! had been there for nearly two months
when we got an old newspaper with the news of the
war. There was no radio, of course, no other
source of information.
The fact that the Germans were marching on
Belgium, or whatever it was--I don't remember how
the war started was appalling, of course, because
we had been raised to think that war was obsolete.
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Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
All ray lifetime I'd known only the Spanish- American
War. which wasn't much of a war.
It had been a peaceful time.
It was. It was the finest time that I can think of
to live in. in terms of security.
The Spanish- American War was rather romantic, wasn*t
it?
Superficially, I'm sure the boys who went, and who
died of yellow fever, malaria, or whatever for
them it was a serious matter but it wasn't much
of a war* The Spaniards were greatly outclassed
in every way.
Our neighbors went. I was in the third grade
in 1898 when the troop trains came back. I remem
ber the teachers let us out and we ran over to the
tracks, which were only a hundred yards away, and
waved at the men coming back presumably from New
York to Chicago and then on west to wherever they
were going. That had been my only contact with
war, and as you say, it was a glamorous sort of
affair. Nobody I knew got killed. This little
cousin, hundred-year-old cousin of mine in Oak
land, was in Puerto Rico. He got malaria. He
told me some tall tales about it, but it was a
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55
Chaney: pretty tame war. I hope he never hears this re
cord, because he thinks it 'was a wonderful war.
Daniel: There was a great contrast between the Spanish-
Am rican War and the first World War.
Chaney: When the Teutons started marching across the low
lands of Europe that was really war. I went back
to Chicago in September to a new job at the Parker
School, a job for which I would not have been de
ferred, because it was not an essential job. I
signed up for selective service.
Daniel: What about selective service? Did this bother
people very much? At the time Theodore Roosevelt
seemed to feel he could bring a volunteer group
together.
Chaney: I don't remember anyone objecting to going. Many
of my friends went as members of the army, of the
infantry or the engineers. Now, I would have gone
but by the time we got in--in 1917 wasn't it? I
had a job teaching in an officers' training pro
gram. I was teaching them military mapping, based
on my work in Alaska, incidentally, (laughter) I
haven't thought of this in years: A very wealthy
man, member of a wealthy Chicago family, wanted
to be sure to get into the officers' training
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ping equipment for a couple of weekends. I think
I made fifty bucks a day, some fantastic amount,
showing him just how to map. I never heard whether
he passed or not, but I hope he got his hundred
dollars worth. Anyway, how I got the job I haven't
the faintest idea.
The fall of 1917 when the war was getting hot,
my number was up, I was at the University of Iowa
teaching a course in military mapping and several
other courses which were in the curriculum for
A-A
officers.
Daniel: How did you get over to the University of Iowa?
University of Iowa - 1917-1922
Chaney: I'd been at the Parker School for three years and
I had my thesis well In hand. I wanted to get
married and did in 1917 Also I wanted to get out
of teaching in high school and into a university.
It was all right professionally to teach on
the North Side and to do my research on the South
Side, but I took an awful beating. I was able to
get from the University of Iowa just the same
amount as I was getting at the Parker School. I
had a lighter teaching schedule, fewer responsi-
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level responsibilities. So I went to a Geological
Society meeting and met the chairman of the depart
ment at Iowa, and he asked me if I was looking for
a job. I said I might be, so he wrote me in the
following spring, and the upshot of it was I took
the job.
Daniel: This placed you in a new circle of teachers and
students. Do any interesting faculty personali
ties come to mind?
Chaney: The University of Iowa was an exceptionally fine
place for a start in university teaching. Several
of the older men, Kay, Thomas, Trowbridge, in the
Geology Department were fine teachers, and stand
ards were high. I learned a lot from them. The
University was small in 1917, and so was the town
of Iowa City. We had no car, but went for long
walks in the adjoining country. Nearly everyone
went to church, and so did we. I have sometimes
wondered since how I might have turned out if we
had stayed there. There was a pious air smoking
was frowned uponi and drinking was not even men
tioned. Perhaps it is just as well that I left
for the dens of iniquity of Berkeley in 1922.
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Chaney: But the five years at Iowa were happy, and I
learned a lot.
Daniel: What did you contract to teach?
Chaney: Geology, just geology,
Daniel: And then, of course, you were put into the array
courses as the need arose,
Chaney: Yes, I taught the specialized courses and one of
the general courses for Letters and Sciencegirls
and the men who were still there, I taught most
of the special classes. Students were decreased
ih number; I had a very heavy schedule. Most of
the classes were for these young boys who were in
the army, who were wearing uniforms, just like
our boys.
Daniel: Yes, just like the training program during the
Second World War,
Chaney: So when my number came up the university asked for
my deferment, and I never was considered again.
In other words, -^ did not participate in the war.
I had been in the National Guard about 1913 and
1911; in Chicago. I organized the University of
Chicago graduate students' troop, mostly geology
students. I was a member of our graduate frat
ernity, Gamma Alpha. It had chemists and physi-
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Chaney: cists and biologists in it, too. Quite a number
of us were in it. That was a cavalry troop, but
nothing came of it. I think, as a matter of fact,
there was a lot of trouble in Mexico and some of
our boys went, but I didn't.
Daniel: Your contribution in the first war was in teaching
special courses for the military.
Chaney: Yes, well, there wasn t anybody else at the univer
sity who seemed to be ready for it.
Daniel: Did the work there allow you to continue your the
sis?
Chaney: Yes, I had my summers. Oddly enough, I'm sure this
is true, there was no summer school for soldiers.
How they managed that I don't know because we al
ways had summer courses here in the second World
War. I worked nights and vacations. The build
ings weren't heated, but I got a university truck
to carry my specimens home and put them in the big
kitchen of the house we were living in and worked
on them.
Then I went back east in 1916. That was before
I went to Iowa, to the National Museum to compare
my plants with others from about the same and ad
jacent areas. There I met Dr. Prank H. Knowlton,
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Chaney: a paleobotanist who did a great deal for me in Wash
ington; Dr. Arthur Rollick, in New York; Dr. Berry
at Johns Hopkins. There were various others.
That was my first trip to Washington, and I cer
tainly was a hayseed. I went there without any hotel
reservations. In fact, it had never occurred to me
to get a reservation. I walked up Pennsylvania
Avenue until I came to a sign and went in and got
a room for a dollar, probably in a flophouse. The
building is no longer there. The National Art
Gallery or something is in that general area.
Then I moved from there and lived in a house,
one of the many houses that had roomers, for a very,
very low price, fifty or seventy-five cents a night.
I was on my own, paying my expenses*
Then I went up to New York. On the train I met
a somewhat older fellow graduate student In geology,
a rather staid individual. ^ was certainly happy
to see him because I was all excited about landing
in New York after dark all by myself. We found a
cheap hotel and went out to see the town. We wan
dered into a theater ticket office. By that time
.
it was a quarter past eight. The man said, "I
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61
Chaney: have tickets for such-and-such a show. I'll give
them to you for half price because the curtain
goes up in fifteen minutes." Well, we stood there
trying to make up our minds, not having much money,
and finally we talked to him until 8:30. So this
fellow said, "Listen, you rubes, I'll give you the
tickets nowl" (Laughter) By that time we were so
scared we didn't even take them. It's unbelievable,
but we beat it. We thought we were in the dens of
sin. So I never did get to go to that free show.
But I went up to New York not to go to the
theater but to go to the New ^ork Botanical Gardens
where Dr. Rollick was, and where I saw some other
things of great interest, ^he National Museum in
Washington, D.C., the New York Botanical Gardenfej;
and the Arnold Arboretum in Boston are places where
1 have spent hundreds, oh, many hundreds of hours
in the past thirty or forty years.
Daniel: Well, you were actually opening communication with
other people in your field.
Chaney: Yes, these good friends, all dead, were in a system
atic stage of paleobotany. Just about all they did
was describe the plants they found, identify them,
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Chaney: and indicate their age.
My first little paper, written when I thought
I might have to go fight for ray country, was, I
suppose, the first paper in America, written
solely from the standpoint of ecology, interpret
ing the plants in terms of environment. All my
life, ray interest in plants has been not in plants
as species, but in plants as members of forests.
Daniel: Relating the plant to everything else around it.
Chaney: Vegetation in terms of topography, climate, ani
mals that eat it. My first little paper was
based on this oak. My argument, as I look at it
now, was not altogether sound. No one has ever
refuted it, at least. That oak was a member of
a slope forest; therefore, there must have been
an irregular topography. I set out to find it
and did find irregularities. I remember this
vaguely because the paper isn't any good in
terms of today, but it was the first thing I
did and I think the first paleo-ecological paper,
at least in any such detail. I don't know of
any at all up to that time. Anyhow, it was fun,
and it was the sort of thing that I've done ever
since.
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63
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Well, you might call this gumshoe paleobotany.
My older friends were concerned with the 'what 1
of it, what kinds of plant is it, and the 'when'
of it, when did it live. But I was concerned with
the 'why 1 of it, why was it there, and whence and
wherefrom the distribution part of it. Distri
bution and paleoecology have been ray interests,
my only interests in paleontology, though of course
I've had to do a vast amount of systematic and
stratographic work, because we have to know what
we're talking about and when it lived.
Darrah puts forth what he considers to be the
challenges of p&leo
It was in his book, wasn t it?
Yes.
He was pretty vague. He was an interesting fellow,
young and good-looking, somewhat effeminate, and
as it turned out, not wholly honest. As a young
ster, in his mid-twenties, he got the job at Har
vard and began writing a textbook which is the
book you saw. It came out around 1939. It was
Darrah' s hard luck that I was ill at the time, the
only time I've ever been ill. He sent me a copy,
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the chapter on tertiary floras, the plants I'm
interested in, first. This fellow is marvelous,
I thought, the way he expresses himself, the lu
cidity of his ideas I couldn't have done better
myself...! did it myself I
Daniel: Oh, good heavensj
Chaney: The book was a series of plagiarisms. It cost him
his job. I was only one of the hundred people he
plagiarized. Two chapters were almost word for
word without pause my stuff. He was smart. He
wrote to everyone and said, "I'm going to write
a book. May I quote such-and-such an idea?" And
he put quotes on that, and then he quoted every
thing else, but without the quotation marks and
without credit.
It cost the poor boy his job. If he had been
honest but he was so dishonest I figured I should
smoke him out, which I did.
Daniel: He disappeared from the field of paleobotany?
Chaney: Yes. He has some sort of job in coal geology and
occasionally writes a paper, but he was rather
superficial. All the good in his book was already
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Chaney: In print. He brought it together, of course, in a
sense that's what a textbook is, but he did it
without proper citation. It's comical though,
reading my stuff and having the notion gradually
come on me that it was my stuff, not his. I would
catch a phrase, and then the conclusion
This is known, in vaudeville, as the slow take.
Yes, it was. It was most amusing, of course, and
an annoying experience. I wrote to my friends at
Harvard. They defended him to some extent. They
said that he had notes on various people's papers
for use in his lectures and when he came to write
his textbook he copied his lecture notes into his
textbook.
Daniel: Suppose we get back to your work and to completion
of requirements for the Ph.D.
Chaney: That was in 1919, when I'd been at Iowa for two
years, the summer of 1919. That meant meeting re
quirements from geologists J th junior Chamberlin,
that is Roll in Chamberlin T.C. Chamberlin was
still living but did not attend Bretz and Salis
bury in general geology, Weller In pathology, and
Cowles in botany. There was no one in paleobotany
because they had no courses.
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66
V. CARNEGIE INS TI TTJTION RESEARCH FELLOW AT BERKELEY
Paleobotany in the West
Chaney: My paleobotany was a synthesis of botany and geology,
which is all it is anyway.
Daniel: Was this true in general in curricula throughout the
world in this field? Paleobotany became a concept
as it grew from geology and botany?
Chaney: Yes. The invertebrate paleontology had long been
important because it has so much value in marine
sediments for dating. But plants are in terres
trial sediments and in the area where I lived, at
least, from Chicago eastward all fossil -bear ing
rocks are marine. Southward down the Mississippi
there are terrestrial deposits, but I had seen none
of them, never have seen them. We lived in a ma
rine area and invertebrate fossils were the only
important ones.
When -L came out here to Berkeley, to the West
Coast, it was to an area which had, in addition to
invertebrates, the vertebrate fossils which Camp
and others have worked on, and the plants which I
had worked on. So we have a much broader picture
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67
Chaney: of paleontology.
The department was reorganized in 1931 when I
became a member of it the chairman. It was the
first department in America which had an active
course in all three fields.
Daniel: Apparently an accident of surroundings determined
lack of study in paleobotany before this time.
Chars y: The eastern United States was an area of marine
rocks. Trilobites and brachiopods and corals were
important, but there weren't any land plants. But
out here, J. P. Smith of Stanford, a marvelous man,
and John C. Merriam at the University of Califor
nia, another great man, were both interested not
only in their fields, animal paleontology, but in
fossil plants. It was along about 1918, maybe
191? that I met Merriam at a scientific meeting
and I sent him my paper, the paper on ecology.
All his life he had been waiting for somebody to
work on paleoecology.
So the first thing I knew in 1920 he offered
me a job at the University, which I didn't take.
Daniel: How does this tie in with your Carnegie research?
Chaney: It does a little later.
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Daniel: You were not first a member of the Carnegie research
group?
Chaney: No, I was at the University of Iowa from 1917 to
1922. During that time I met Merriam and he of
fered me a job, and then he said, "Let's wait a
little." At that time he probably knew that he
was going to be the president of the Carnegie In
stitution. That's the tie-up. But he wasn't yet.
So he said, "instead I'll send you money for field
expenses. I want you to come out to the John Day
Basin this summer." So this time, instead of rid
ing in a day-coach on ray own expenses, I spent
fe)0 to $00 of research funds from tbe University
of California my first.
I had a marvelous summer and met several of
the men: Chester Stock, Eustace Furlong, and John
Buwalda, with whom I was to be associated through
all these years. They are all dead now and Mer
riam. I'm the only one of the quintette still
living.
Charles W. Merriam, JoC.'s second son, is an
invertebrate paleontologist with the United States
Geological Survey at Menlo Park. I see him fre-
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69
Chaney: quently, but then he was just a youngster. Of the
grown men of that group I'm the only survivor,
^t gives ma a very queer feeling.
Daniel: You said that Merriam offered you a job and you
didn't take it?
Chaney: I didn't take it because, actually, he sounded me
out on a job. Before a decision was reached he
said he thought we had better wait a little while.
He was thinking about Carnegie. When he went to
Carnegie he immediately, or even in 1921, wrote
and said he wanted me to be a member of the Car
negie Institution staff, quartered in Berkeley on
the University of California campus. He was plan
ning for me, you see, in advance.
Daniel: You were listed in the Carnegie roster as an indi
vidual doing research,
Chaney: Yes, research associate.
Daniel: But you didn't work in Washington ever. You came
straight on.
Chaney: No, I was on the campus throughout, from 1922 to
1931.
In 1927, Chester Stock went to Pasadena, or it
might have been 1926, and I taught his course once
or twice as a special arrangement. In 1930, W, D.
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70
Daniel:
Chaney :
Chaney: Matthew, a marvelous man, who came here from New
York, became fatally ill and I finished his course
in the fall. He had started it. I finished it.
He died before the end of the semester. I taught
it the next semester and by the end of the year I
had been appointed a regular, so in 1931 I went
on as a regular University staff member.
You also had a title with resoect to the museum.
Yes, I was curator of paleobotanical collections
during all that time,
Daniel: Is there more background about your coming to the
University?
I continued at Iowa until 1922, but the summers of
1920 and 1921 I came out here, and with University
of California research funds I laid the ground
work of all the paleobotanical work I've done in
western America ever since.
I visited several scores of localities in
Idaho, Montana, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and
California. For the first time I traveled around
in an automobile, collecting. These collections
are still a very important part of our study ma
terial here, though they have been added to many
times since,
Then in 1922, when Merriam was in Washington
Chaney:
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71
Chaney: with the Carnegie Institution, he said that for a
time, at least, it would be better for me not to
teach at the University, as he had originally
planned, but to come here as a member of the Car
negie staff, without teaching responsibilities,
so I could devote all my time to research,
I came to Berkeley in 1922 as a research as
sociate of the Carnegie Institution, refusing a
position with the University, a teaching posi
tion, because it seemed better to spend all my
time on getting baleobotany established. It
meant that I could go into the field at any time
of the year I wished instead of being held in
Berkeley by classes. As a consequence, I had a
lot of field work, brought together a very large
collection of materials which I have been using
and others will be using.
However, you were an associate in the University.
I had an honorary relationship and sat on Ph. D.
committees.
But not as an official?
I had received no salary from the University. I
simply had quarters. The Carnegie Institution
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
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72
Chaney :
Daniel
Chaney
favors that arrangement, at least It did at that
time. There were many people, including several
others on this campus in other disciplines, who
were Carnegie staff members but who had the hos
pitality of various departments.
This arrangement was developed by the chairman
of the Department of Paleontology?
Well, actually, oddly enough at that time there
wasn't any Department of Pabontology. It had
been run into the ground. There was a museum
of paleontology. It was the ^eology Department.
When ^atthew came in 192? the department was re
organized. Geology and paleontology were once
more separated in 1927. They had been separated
from about 1910 when Merriam founded the Depart
ment of Paleontology for administrative reasons .
Around 1921 or 1922 they were merged because there
was no one in paleontology who could be chairman.
The men in there were not strong enough men to han
dle it.
When Matthew came he was definitely competent.
The Department of Paleontology was reorganized and
ever since there has been a department. I'm in-
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73
Chaney: clined to think it was a mistake because paleon-
tology is a part of geology, but that's the way we
have it here.
Daniel: This is in line with fragmentation of other depart
ments, isn't it?
Chaney: That is the tendency at Berkeley. Time will tell
whether it is wise or not. Dividing up subjects
has disadvantages, but there are administrative
advantages. For example, a very considerable
amount of funds from outside sources were given
for paleontology. The only way to be sure that
geology wouldn't get some of them was to have a
wholly separate office or a separate department,
which is the reason 'way back forty years ago,
nearly fifty years ago, why this was done.
The present trend in geology is toward phy
sical and chemical geology geophysics and geo
chemistry is a better way of putting it. And
that takes them still further from the life side
of paleontology science, so it may well be that
we have this fragmentation. I have no mature
opinion about it. In general I don't favor it.
It brings in more difficulties than it solves.
But anyhow that's the way we do it.
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Chaney :
While I was around here in the twenties I was
associated with the Geology Department and the
Museum of Paleontology, just as there's a Muse
um of Vertebrate Zoology, from the same source
of funds, incidentally, so there was a Museum of
Paleontology.
Administratively the Museum was not under the
Geology Department?
*
It was wholly separate, yes. During that time
I taught one or two courses by special arrange
ment with the University when the men who nor
mally taught them weren't here. Then when Dr,
Matthew became seriously ill--in 1930 and was
unable to meet his classes I finished the semes
ter for him and taught the course he would have
taught the next semester. I always had a stand-
in capacity, for some of the teaching at least,
and I was associated on seminars and on com
mittees and other matters. Even then I was some
what more experienced than some of the others,
Daniel 1 This arrangement continued until you took over
the chairmanship of the department?
Chaney :
,
Yes. Of course this enabled me, as I was mention-
.
ing, to go to Mongolia and China for a year just
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Chaney: to pick up and leave. No one had any call on my
time except myself and Dr. John C. Merriam who
was directing my work in the Carnegie Institution.
And at various other times I went away on trips
during the school year because the University bells
weren't ringing for my ears.
Starting out in 1922 as a resident of Berkeley,
I had an office in Bacon Hall in the Paleontology
Department, My responsibilities were limited to
an occasional seminar and to participation on Ph,
D, committees from time to time.
When Matthew came in 1927, might have been
1926, he called upon me for advice. As I say, we
were old friends, and he had never taught before.
So I did a good deal, informally, in helping along,
He did more for me than I ever did for him. He
advised Roy Andrews to take me along to Mongolia
in 1925.
Then around 1929 and 1930 I began going to
Mexico, and to Central America in 1931 I had my
schedule so arranged that I could occasionally
take a semester off without classes.
Daniel: How could you finance these things?
Chaney: As a member of the Carnegie staff I had funds I
used Dr. Merriam' s funds. He sent me anything I
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76
Chaney
needed as long as I was a paid member of the staff.
I received my salary from Carnegie. When I went
into the University in 1931 he set up an annual
allotment, a generous one, which enabled me to hire
an assistant and do any travel and publication work
I needed. I suspect that the Carnegie Institution
altogether, including salary, spent close to a
quarter of a million dollars on me.
This is not an inexpensive type of work. The
taxpayers can't complain about this because it
was not public funds, but it seems like an enor
mous amount of money.
Anyway, all I had to do was to determine whe
ther I had six OP seven hundred dollars for a trip
to Venezuela, and I usually did, so I went. They
bought equipment which the University couldn't
get for me.
When I became a member of the University staff
in 1931 we moved over from Bacon Hall to the Min
ing Building that was another change in the de
partment, we moved into the third floor of the
Mining Building to insure safety for our collec
tions. Bacon Hall has never burned down. It has
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Ghaney: caught on fire several times and Is a fire trap.
Fossils are In general Irreplaceable, these types
at least, the described specimens like this can't
be replaced and so we moved over to the Mining
Building which Is relatively fireproof. We've
been there ever since and we're moving out in ano
ther year or so to a new building nearby.
Daniel: Had you decided when you first came out here what
your field of exploration would be?
Chaney: Yes, almost exactly. The John Day Basin, where
Merrlam worked as a young man in 1900 and 1901,
has the most complete selection of landlaid terres
trial deposits In North America and perhaps In the
world, at least a section containing fossil ani
mals and fossil plants. Almost every part of the
Tertiary section is represented here. Merriam was
an extremely wise man and, even as a beginner, he
had gone up to the John Day Basin and recognized
its value and wrote a paper which is still authori
tative after more than fifty years, and that's going
some. In geology and paleontology there weren't very
many that last a half century.
So Merriam told me in 1920 when I was still at
Iowa to go to the John Day Basin, which I did. I
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Chaney: went back In 1921 and 1922 and 1923, and have been
going there ever since with an occasional year out,
sometimes twice a year. In 1925 I didn't go because
I went to iv longolia.
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:
Ralph W. Chaney in June 1937
near the village of Shanwang, Shantung Province,
China, where he was collecting fossil plants with
a field party of the Geological Survey of China.
79
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney ;
Daniel
VI. PALEOBOTANY ABROAD
Asia
How did you haopen to go to Asia?
It was becoming obvious that if my ideas for western
America were sound they could be tested in Asia. Af
ter all, this is a global study. It's not an iso
lated John Day B ag i n n Oregon study. The conditions
which I was beginning to think had obtained in Oregon
and California and Washington, must have had corres
ponding manifestation in Asia, if I was right.
So I went over there and the results of that
first year weren't all that they might have been
for the reason that we were going to Mongolia,
mostly collecting fossil reptiles and mammals. There
weren't many fossil plants there. I had a marvelous
time. We could talk for hours about it.
How long were you there?
About five months in Mongolia and a month or two
at either end. When I got out of Mongolia I went
to Manchuria where I found a fossil flora almost ex
actly like one in the John Day Basin.
Did you have any communication with any people in
this field?
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80
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
In Asia?
Yes.
No. The Chinese were interested Amadeus Grabau,
a very eminent man, had got into trouble at Colum
bia during the first World War because he was pro-
German. He went out to China and founded the
school of Grabauian philosophy, which is now out
moded, but which was very useful for over twenty
years.
YOU say Grabauian?
G-R-A-B-A-U, and then just the "ian" for the adjec
tive.
Was there some connection between what you were do
ing and what someone in China may have been doing?
Not much, no, no, no.
And how did you happen to go to Mongolia?
Well, Roy Andrews was collecting dinosaurs in Mon
golia. He was at the American Museum under Osborne
and Matthew. In fact, I certainly must have dis
cussed it with Matthew beforehand and said I wanted
to go . I don't remember the details.
To see what you could see, in other words.
To see whether I could find floras like those of the
John Day ^asin in Mongolia. Well, I didn't, but in
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Chaney: Manchuria there was a flora, very much like one in
the John ^ay Basin.
Daniel: How did you get into the Manchuria area?
Chaney: A Swede had written a paper about it around 1921,
a man I know very well now. He was out of his
field, but Swedes are great to get around places,
particularly China.
Daniel: What was his name.
Chaney: I'll tell you in a second. I know him. He's a
close associate. We've had him here lecturing on
this campus Florin is his name.
Daniel: You knew about the Manchurian flora ?
Chaney: Yes, I knew they were there. That was my first
real contact with the Japanese. My search took me
to a coal mine The plants were inter-bedded with
false seams of coal. They confirmed my feeling
that flora- in Asia would supplement what I knew
of plants in western North America. So I've been
back, in 1933 > primarily, to study the plants asso
ciated with Peking man, Pleistocene; in 1937 at
the request of the Geological Survey of China,
which didn't pay my travel expenses.
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Daniel: Was the Chinese government interested in your
work?
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Chaney: Yes. By this time I knew these men well. W. H.
Wong was to be the Minister of Transportation and
the Minister of Education in the War Cabinet, a
very fine man.
Daniel: Did they become interested because you were inter
ested, or were there people in the Chinese schol
astic circle who might have been interested?
Chaney: There was a botanist named Hu who became inter
ested. These things get very complicated, all hu
man relations do. In 1933, working on the Peking
man deposits I became very well acquainted with
the Rockefeller group, the Peking Union Medical
College, who were handling that job.
Associated with them was a French Jesuit, Pierre
Teilhard de Chard in. He was not employed by them.
He was a missionary, but he spent all his time on
fossils. In many ways he was the most remarkable
man I have ever known. Well, Pierre and I got well
acquainted. Pour years later, when the Shantung
flora, (Shantung is the province that sticksout to
ward Korea, out into the Yellow Sea), when the flora
was discovered it was turned over to a Chinese bot
anist who wasn't who'lly competent. He'd never done
anything with fossil plants before, and he was
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Daniel: Was he primarily a botanist?
Chaney: Yes, he wasn't a paleontologist at all. There were
some other reasons why he was having difficulty.
So, through Pierre, I got the invitation from
the Geological Survey of China to come out and
take it over.
Daniel: This was the Jesuit missionary. Was he primarily a
missionary or a researcher?
Chaney: Well, he vjent out as a missionary, but except for
crossing himself a couple of times a week--he was
a paleontologist, one of the great men in paleon
tology. The Jesuits tend to go into non- controver
sial sciences. Anyway, that was the summer of the
warthe war in Asia. In fact, on the way out to
Shantung I stopped and got off the train at Tientsin
and wandered around as I always do, talking a little
Chinese. I began talking to a guard of one of the
troop trains this is China, mind you--and I walked
up to him and he shoved a bayonet at me. It was
dark in the train shed. It was a Japanese sentry
not Chinese at alii That was my first inkling that
the Japanese were moving troops into North China to
set up the incident at Lu-ku Chiao, the Marco Polo
Bridge which was to start the war about two weeks
later.
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Chaney: It was a very dramatic introduction to the Japan
ese military power, on a small scale but a bayo
net is a bayonet. No Chinese, in those days at
least, would ever have done such a thing. Now
adays tiaey probably would have run the bayonet
through me. This talk about the Japanese being
more brutal than the Chinese is a lot of baloney.
The Chinese invented brutality, and they are
strictly in character these days. They are modi
fied by some of our western controls but they are
just exactly the way I would expect them to be, no
better, no worse, and it's pretty bad.
But to get back. That was 1937. These were
just summer trips, you see. I got away during the
summer vacations, mostly around Peking. We went
into Shansi and I collected some fossil plants
there. In 1937 I went to Shantung and around Pe
king.
Daniel: Is this Shantung?
Chaney: Yes. T and D are confused. You're dealing with
letters that don't exist in the Chinese tongue,
so when we say "tun" or "duh" they just aren't there
in Chinese Shantung. It's like "k's" and "g's"
and "p's" and "b's."
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Daniel: By the way, did you learn Chinese and other langu-
Ghaney :
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Dhaney:
ages as you vent?
No. I don't speak any. I know words in three or
four, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, and Mongolian.
Enough to speak to people who are working?
Oh, well, yes. Right now, 1 couldn't handle any
Korean. I haven't been in Korea since 1937. My
Japanese is pretty sharp, though don't speak it.
My Chinese I know lots of words.
I didn't mean to interrupt you, but we did get off
I 'm not a linguist, unfortunately. If I were I
might never come back. It would be so fascinating
to live there, really know what was going on.
You came back in 1937
And I rushed that publication into print, giving
senior authorship to ray Chinese colleague, who
didn't write any of it, (for obvious reasons).
It didn't matter to me. For the theoretical sec
tion I took senior authorship and gave him the
systematic section. Well, anyhow, the Japanese
were moving in. I now know they were sending sci
entific men into all these regions to write papers.
So I hustled this through under forced draft the
only paper I've ever done that with and it's quite
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Chaney;
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel
Chaney:
a large one, too--so as to prevent any possible
Japanese beat. They were moving in right across
ray fossil locality.
Does this mean that the Japanese had more know
ledge in the field of paleontology than the Chi
nese?
Oh, yes. The Japanese are way ahead of the Chi
nese in almost every aspect of science. The Chi
nese have followed classical education. It's sort
of like some of the eastern schools where Greek and
Latin and philosophy are emphasized. And I'm not
saying that they aren't the better for it. I'm
not saying that the Chinese classics may not have
raised better Chinese than the world of modern
science would, but not in the modern world.
Paleontology was different from the subjects of
classical study?
It was, but Grabau, going there around 1920, had
sent out some of his Chinese students to Germany
and America. They had come back, as well-trained
paleontologists, geologists. So there were some
men, but none in my field, none in paleobotany.
Just between us, neither the Chinese nor the Japa
nese average more than middle class as scientists.
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Chaney: They are mediocre men In both countries who are at
the very top. The average is way off.
I'm now working with a group of seven paleo-
botanists in Japan in a cooperative project. At
least half of them couldn't hold jobs in America.
Daniel: It's a new study for them, isn't it?
Chaney: Yes, it's a matter of getting oriented. The Japa
nese are way ahead because of their more frequent
contacts with the West, just as England was way
ahead of Germany and Prance at the outset. They
were getting ideas.
Daniel: The Jesuit certainly had a solid background in this
field.
Chaney: Oh, yes. He was trained in France. He's a first-
class paleontologist, geologist, zoologist, and
anthropologist.
Daniel: Who first discovered the deposits in Shantung?
Chaney: One of the Chinese geological survey men. It was
a Chinese geological survey job, all of it. They
didn't In ve a paleobotanist who was interested.
So they sent the specimens over to H. H. Hu, who
was a botanist, thinking he might be a little in
terested in paleobotanjr. He figured he could write
a paper. He would have written one, but it would
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Chaney: have been pretty terrible. It would have been like
his models, the Germans of a hundred years ago.
They were good then, but they aren't good now. It
would have been thirty to fifty years behind the
times.
Now, during the post-war period, things have
changed very greatly because we've had scores, hun
dreds of American scientists there related to the
Occupation, and the Japanese have jumped ahead and
let's hope they catch up with us very soon. They
haven't yet, but there are some young men coming
on in my field who are decidedly good.
Daniel: The war simply brought more people to the area and
stirred it up, so to speak.
Chaney: Yes, people scream about the G. I. babies, but that's
just one aspect of an occupation and not necessar
ily an undesirable one. I'm not competent to dis
cuss the sociology and economics of it, but the
biology of it doesn't do anybody any harm. There
are some dandy half-caste children in most Japanese
villages I go to jabbering Japanese like everybody
else. Nobody knows the difference.
Daniel If you believe in the brotherhood of man this is
no problem.
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Chaney: Well, it's no problem to me. As I say to my sob-
sister Mends who moan about this, at least the
G.I.s gave the girls cigarettes. The irony of that
is perhaps not apparent to you, but most of those
girls who became G.I. consorts, sometimes wives,
anyway mothers of half -American children, were in
an economic group which is farmed out as young wo
men to some male who can afford to pay something
for them. They accumulated money for their dowries
and then married village boys and lived happily
ever afterward. Instead of getting beatings these
girls got Lucky Strike cigarettes from the G.I.s.
This is just one of the amusing points that you
know if you've been in Japan, but you don't know
if you view things from across the sea.
Daniel: Do you think the ideas brought by the American oc
cupation forces were beneficial to Japan?
Chaney J With the world as it is, with transportation and
communication the way it is, the sooner they de
velop relations with the rest of the world, the
better. I think it might be best of all if we
could put a fence around some of the countries,
The way the Danes had a fence around Greenland un
til about 19^0. One couldn't go ashore. If you
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Chaney: were shipwrecked and landed on the shore you were
arrested. They didn't want alien races. They
wanted an Eskimo National Park. They didn't call
it that but that's what it was in effect. I al
most went there in 19^0. I had the money and all
the preparations, and then the war started. It is
an important place in my business.
Anyhow, if they could put a wall around the
whole of China and leave China the way it was, un
touched by the West; if there could be some way to
insulate Japan from the world outside. I'm not al
together sure the Japanese and Chinese wouldn't be
happier the way they used to be. I'm far from
sure this is getting into a pretty complex philo
sophical drift. They'd die of hunger, and they'd
have more blindness and misery, but both the Chi
nese and the Japanese are a very happy people, par
ticularly the Chinese village people, the Japanese
village people, too.
Daniel: You mean in their personal philosophy?
Chaney: Oh yes, they are very happy and very simple. Al
though we say they are benefited by having our
radios, automobiles, television, and canned food,
in some ways we may be burdening them.
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Daniel: Unfortunately, we never have choices about these
things. Inevitabilities arise and--
Chaney: and nobody can keep up a fence--the Danes couldn't,
They had to absolutely seal Greenland. You just
couldn't get on without high endorsement and then--
for all I know, I never got there they might have
sent a sentry around with me to make sure I never
would have stopped for the Eskimo girls. They just
weren't going to have contamination. The San Bias
Islands, off the coast of Panama, are like that.
I flew out there once in a navy plane, an amphi
bian, and those folks have gold mines and agricul
tural lands on the mainland, not more than four or
five or maybe ten miles away. They go across in
canoes. The islands themselves are completely oc
cupied, and I mean completely, by their houses.
When you step onto an island, you step into a house.
The reason they live on these off-shore islands is
because they don't want their womenfolk mingling
with Negroes. When a woman goes ashore, if she
gets out of sight (this was true In the early
1930s when I was there) if she gets out of sight of
her men she's never allowed to come back. She
might have had some Negro semen introduced in the
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Chaney: Interval, Now that, like the Danes and the Eski-
raoes, Is a losing fight. You can't keep it up.
Sooner or later some girl is going to be smart
enough- -while I was there- there certainly were no
si?rns of Negroes, but all you have to do is step
ashore on the mainland and there are Negroes,
along with the Indians and mixed breeds. The San
Bias a^e completely Indian, at least in the same
way others are completely Nordic. Nothing is com
plete but they thought they were, anyway But all
those are losing fights. The c hinese tried it and
kept us out, but the Japanese submitted to Commo
dore Perry around 185>0. Because they are a small
country they absorbed our ideas faster and are
ahead of China.
Daniel: As you were making your exploration you had agree-
able relationships with most of the officials.
Chaney: Oh, very. One has to. My policy with the Chinese
has always been to treat them as equals. My first
contacts were not that way. Roy Andrews, who led
the Mongolia expedition, had a British point of
view, although he was strictly an American. He
thought the Chinese were inferior all Orientals
were an inferior race but I saw the results of it.
They were unfortunate for him and for the Chinese.
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93
Chaney: Anyway, I doubt that I would ever have treated
them In any other way than as equals because I
think they are our superiors.
Daniel: This is your inclination?
Chaney: Well, I admire the Chinese highly, and the Japa
nese also. They are the same people, they happen
to be living a little differently. Well, cer
tainly I'm not concerned with economics and soci
ology as an amateur. The Chinese I have had deal
ings with have always treated me fine. I've had
no unfortunate experiences with either Chinese or
Japanese and I have to have very close cooperation
with them. It's their country, I do what they let
me do. But I've always been able to do almost
everything I've wanted.
The Japanese were a little tough before the
war but they are no longer that way.
Daniel: What about China, now?
Chaney: We get papers occasionally.
Daniel: What was the last time you were there?
Chaney: I was there in 19ij-8, and just before communism.
I had hustled over there that time to get in ahead
of the Communists and I just made it.
Daniel: Do you suppose there are people who are well enough
trained now to handle paleobotanical materials skil
fully?
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Chaney: They were coming along. We had a man here a
Chinese I can't think of his name Tze, Tze
I think is the Chinese he was here for several
months studying our collections and discussing
matters with me. I have had Indians and Hindus
also.
Daniel: Is there any indication that Russian paleobotan-
ists may be interested in this field?
Chaney: Not in China. There have been Russians right
alox^ who have been interested in my sort of
paleobdtany, and there are several who have been
writing papers and sending them to me in the last
two or three years.
Daniel: Had you any communication with them before this
time?
Chaney: I've never heard of any of them.
Daniel: Had they done any work in this field before, that
you were aware of?
Chaney: I doubt it. Kryshtofovich was the principal paleo-
botanist of Russia and he died about four years
ago. These are probably his students. They prob
ably took his mailing list and sent me papers. I
had never heard of any of them before,
Daniel: You continued your work in that area just as long
as you could, through 19ij-8?
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Chaney: In 191+8 I went over to have a look at ^etasequoia.
I didn't see any fossils on that trip. That's
the living tree.
Daniel: That was quite an exploration and had a wonderful
effect in several ways.
Chaney: It was of very great interest. Almost everybody
read about it. Metasequoia was obviously a first-
order discovery. I didn't discover it. It was
discovered by a Chinese. As soon as I became as
sured that the tree was living in China it opened
up the possibility of seeing a tree, previously
considered to be extinct, living in its natural
environment.
If we could go today to an area where there
were dinosaurs and see what they ate, which ones
ate which plants, think how much more we would
know about dinosaurs. Actually, no one knows what
dinosaurs ate at all, the herbivorous dinosaurs.
There's no knowledge, no real knowledge on the
food of herbivorous dinosaurs.
This was a chance to apply ideas that I and
others had been formulating on pa]eo -ecology, to
check them in the field in central China, to go
and see a tree that I had guessed might be In
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Chaney: existence before it was found. I had no idea
what it would be. I thought it would be a Sequoia.
Daniel: How did you get the first clue to this?
Chaney: My collaborator on the Shantung paper, H.E. Hu,
wrote and told me that redwoods had been discov
ered in China.
Daniel: How did he know?
Chaney: He heard about it from the Forestry Department at
Nanking University where he had a close friend
named Cheng. Cheng heard of it from the forester
who brought out the first specimens of Metasequoia
around 19^0, 19^1, or 19^2.
He wrote to me and wrote to Elmer D. Merrill
at Arnold Arboretum. Mr. Merrill was too old to
go. We considered it. I'm sure he never con
sidered going, but it would have been fine if he
could have.
I was reading in the papers those days about
the advances of Communist troops. They were get
ting perilously close to this area. So I picked
up and went.
Daniel: There a notation in one of the sources that you
went to the Philippine Islands.
Chaney: I went down to the Philippine Islands after my
work in Mongolia and Manchuria in 1925,
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Daniel: Was there material there you wanted to investi
gate?
Chaney: Forests. I had never seen a tropical forest and
I saw a dandy. That was just enlarging my botan
ical experience.
Daniel: What about Mongolia? What did you find there?
Chaney: There weren't many fossil plants, but afterward
I went to Manchuria where there are very fine
sources of plants and where I found the dawn
redwoods without knowing what they really were,
of course. No one did then.
Daniel: Now this was in the period before the 1930s when
you went to Manchuria?
Chaney: That was after Mongolia in 1925. My next trip
to China was in 1933 after I had become a member
of the University.
Latin America
Daniel: There's also a mention of your going to Central
and South America. Did you always go to differ
ent places?
Chaney: I went to several places in Latin America, and
always to Panama. Panama is particularly inter
esting.
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Daniel: Why?
Chaney: Because It has a forest very much like that which
lived in the Sierra foothills, Dutch Plat, and
Nevada City, Grass Valley during the Eocene epoch,
some sixty million years ago. It's readily ac
cessible because it's a part of the United States
and has some facilities. There's a fine tropi
cal research station, Barro Colorado Island,
there, -where I had accomodations. All in all,
it was a very fine experience and supplemented
what I had seen in the Philippines of the Old
World tropics.
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VII. ECOLOGICAL AND GEOLOGICAL APPROACH TO PALEOBOTANY
Qualitative and Quantitative Aspects
Daniel: Is the material you find in a living forest reli
ably of the same nature as the fossil remains?
Chaney: What I'm trying to do is to match fossil spe
cies and groups of vegetation (floras) with liv
ing plants and forests of today. That's been my
whole approach throughout all my life, matching
the vegetation of the past with that of today,
and it's been primarily on a vegetation basis
rather than on a basis of individual plants.
Most botanically-minded paleobotanists are con
cerned with the individual plant, the structure
and the naming, and its evolutionary position.
They study it as a plant. I study it as part of
a forest, as an indicator of earth history, a
geological and ecological approach.
Daniel: Which is wider
Chaney: Well, it's different. I think it's more funda
mental to geology and I think probably taking a
plant apart and studying all its structures, rela
tionships, is of more value to botany, at least
of the old line sort. Modern botany includes, of
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Chaney: course, distribution and ecology, which comes out
of my work.
Most people, back East at least, are inclined
to think that I am a botanist. I don't know whe
ther I should mention this here but the National
Academy section of botany fully expected and as
sumed that I would join the botany section. I
joined the geology section without ever having
considered anything else because I am a geolo
gist. In many ways the botany section would have
advantages, but I am primarily a geologist.
Daniel: Do you think the tendency in the past has been to
limit study to the structure of plants?
Chaney: It still is in most parts of the world. Ploris-
tics, which is the study of whole groups of
plants, is not an important part of botany as is
morphology and evolution. I can't say, I'm too
close to it to say whether there's a trend away
from the morphologic studies and the systematic
studies and the evolutionary studies. I wouldn't
favor abandoning them. They are absolutely es
sential, but if there is a trend toward emphasiz
ing some others that will make the subject better-
rounded, won't it?
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Daniel: Yes. Do you go on from this point to relate ani
mals to the plants?
Chaney: Oh, the biota is involved, all living things, yes,
The trouble with that is that there is scarcely a
vertebrate paleontologist who is working on the
ecological side. They have been largely students
of structures and evolution, and they have hard
parts which change rapidly teeth, for example.
There's nothing in fossil plants which changes
as rapidly as teeth. The leaves I work with
have been the same for nearly a hundred million
years. We don't have evolutionary trends in the
structures of plants in so short a segment of
time. So I've had to look for other things. In
the case of vertebrate paleontologists they have
the basis for exact and significant evolutionary
studies, and most of them haven't got around to
ecology at all.
One or two of my students, men who have sat
in my classes, not as paleobotanists, but who
have taken my course, are beginning to work on
ecology in vertebrate paleontology, and it may
be hoped that others will.
Daniel: Discovery of evolutionary changes keeps the ere-
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Daniel: ative energy and fascination going, doesn't it?
Chaney : Yes. It's wholly desirable. It has, though, de
layed the point of view that is developing in
paleobotany. They still look at fossils as indi
vidual animals and not as part of the whole liv
ing group, the biota. So I think we are also a
little bit ahead of invertebrate paleontology.
There is a great deal of work and a great deal
of talk about ecology, paleo-ecology. The dif
ficulty there is that we are dealing with marine
life and we just can't know as much about condi
tions on the floor of the sea as we know about
conditions on the land surface, so it's a much
more difficult study to make.
But so far as my work is concerned, my point
of view could be summarized as saying that I've
been concerned with vegetation, and most paleo-
botanists still are concerned with plant speci
mens. Vegetation is a part of the history of
the earth with which I am concerned. The plant
is part of the sequence in time, a part of a
sequence of structures, all essential. It would
be like saying that one friend was better than
another friend, or one kind of food was better.
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Chaney: Now, one is better at one time, another at ano
ther time. I'm certainly not narrovj-minded
enough and I'd be very stupid to say that the
morphological ape ct of botany isn't as important
as the floristic approach. The British, for ex
ample, indulge in morphological botany almost to
the exclusion of everything else, and people in
the Eastern universities are almost entirely bo
tanical paleobotanists. What I do say is , 1^ like
the floristic better, I like vegetation better
than individual pliant s, and so because I've been
greatly favored I have been able to work on it.
If I had in past years gone to some universi
ties perhaps they'd have told me to study struc
tures, the petrified structures of ancient plants
now extinct and meaning nothing, or almost no
thing in terms of their habitat significance. But
nobody told me that. I gave myself my orders and
I also had ample aid from Dr. John C. Merriam.
I me t him about 1918, and when I published
the ^agle Creek paper, a small one that I men
tioned earlier, I sent him a copy. I didn't
have his support in mind; I sent the paper to
fifty or sixty people, I didn't have much of a
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Chaney: mailing list in those days. He had been interes
ted in paleo-ecology and paleobotany all his life,
but had never been able to find anyone to work on
it. As soon as he got that paper he stopped off
in Iowa City where I was teaching to see me.
We talked about many things. He asked me if
I w ould like to work out here. He suggested that
I come about a year later and two years later I
did come as a member of the Carnegie staff,
Merriam throughout aided me financially, and
even more significantly, in supporting the vege
tation approach, the use of paleobotany as a tool
in figuring out earth history.
In the Carnegie group there was an outstand
ing man, the outstanding ecologist, botanical eco-
logist in America at that time, Frederic E,
Clements, with whom I had become acquainted in
1916, The first time I ever went to Washington I
met him, A man full of ideas, not all of them
good but he had a good percentage throughout his
life he died during the war, this last war I
was extremely close to him. I was unable to fol
low some of his suggestions; sometimes he came
to realize that he was in error. He thought, for
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Chaney: example, that the plants of the Eocene were oaks
and maples and walnuts like those now living. He
was at first very disdainful, very inhospitable to
the idea that they were plants unlike any now liv
ing in temperate North America, but as soon as I
had worked up the Goshen flora and shown that they
were tropical plants he accepted the idea and im
mediately got the point that we had here a tem
perature gradient from tropical to temperate, and
this has been one of the most significant tools
in geology. For example, if I find a plant with
large thick leaves, often leaves without teeth
on the margin, often with veins whibh are heavy
and loop around the margin there's a botanical
name for it I know that's a tropical flora be
cause that's the kind of leaf I find in the tro
pics, in Panama, in the Philippines, and in all
the tropical places I've^been to. At higher al
titudes the leaves are smaller, tiiinner, and have
serrate margins and if the nerves run out to the
teeth in these margins I'm thinking of a birch
or an elder leaf now and you can think of leaves
like that then I know it's temperate.
Well, the fact remains that in the western United
States all of those tropical floras are in the
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Chaney: older rocks. As we come up to the present there
are fewer and fewer of them and more and more of
the temperate kind. In other words there Is
change in climate expressed.
Where the vertebrate paleontologist sees his
horse grow from a dog-sized animal with four toes
and low -crowned teeth up to the present horse with
only one functioning toe and the very high-crowned
teth and long jaw and all the rest, where he has
a morphological sequence, I have a sequence sug
gesting climatic change and it doesn't make any
difference what kind of sequence I have. If
this is absurd but if in the Eocene there *
white pebbles, in the Oligocene there were red
pebbles, in the Miocene there were green pebbles
and so on--it's too silly for words but it's a
good example--then we would always know the Eocene
by the white pebbles, wouldn't we? It doesn't
really make any difference what they are just so
we have it well-marked.
So when I find large thick leaves with char
acteristic venation, I say Eocene and it always
works out that way, and dating is, of course, an
important part of any paleontologist's activities
because we have to know the 'when 1 of the ques-
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Chaney: tion. It's Important In economic geology, it's
important even in the pure unapplied phases of
geology to know the age of the rocks with which
we are concerned.
In the western United States, at the present
time , anyone who has read my papers and other
papers written by our Berkeley group, can iden
tify and determine the age of the rocks, even
without identifying the plants. Some botanists
say these leaves don't mean anything. You don't
know whether you have figs or magnolias. All
right, so what? If they're thick and large, whe
ther they're figs or magnolias they at least rep
resent tropical plants--which means Eocene.
Actually, botanists who say we can't tell are
showing a lack of knowledge, because anyone who
knows leaves well can tell nearly as much about
them as botanists can tell about other structures,
modern botanists. So I'm not admitting that
their charge Is correct. I'm saying even if they
were right we can be pretty sure of our ground.
I have applied for a National Science Founda
tion grant to do in four or five years what I have
done in America in the past forty; that is, to
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Chaney : Asia, particularly in Japan. I can do it in a
few years because there are a half-dozen profes
sional paleobotanists instead of a group of green
graduate students, because I've been through it
once, and also because I don't have forty years
to spend anyhow, it may be presumed.
So I'm hoping to go over there once a year
for the next several years to guide the work of
Japanese friends and to come up with a sequence
which is going to be as useful for them as ours
now is for us .
Daniel: Where is this?
Chaney: All over Japan. Japan is a wonderful place.
There are more plant fossils in Japan than any
place of its size I have ever seen.
Daniel: And there is a growing number of people there who
are interested?
Chaney: There are a good many. There are almost as many
as there are in the United States.
Daniel: Have these people studied here?
Chaney: Some have. Most of them have studied in Japan,
With a little guidance they can do very good work,
a little guidance and some American financial sup
port. There's one thing about the Japanese. They're
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Chaney: very good on systematic work, on description, but
they don't get over into theory very much, inter
pretation and theory, and without some theoreti
cal studies you just don't get anywhere. Even
way back at my start in 1922 I had the benefit
of Merriara and Clements, who were about twenty
years older than I, both top-flight men, who had
suggested these theories to me. I had some of my
own. They supplemented them, very maturely, and
guided me . Those two have done more for me than
any other persons since my college days. I men
tioned some of my teachers--but these men guided
me to within the last fifteen years. Merriam
died in 19^6, Clements died, I suppose, in 19UU,
and up until the day of their death I was in
touch with them regularly, receiving ideas from
them.
Daniel: At present where do you bring your ideas for
cross-fertilization?
Chaney: I don't know. It's different being an old-timer.
People come to me for ideas now. That doesn't
mean my ideas are any better than they were when
I was young, but just as I turned to Merriam and
Clements, men younger than I turn to me not all
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Chaney: of them, fortunately. And I don't consider ray-
self in the least degree an infallible source.
One or two of my students one of them is
in his late forties, the other in his early six
ties, he isn't much younger than I am, in other
words are the men I talk to most about paleo-
botany. Both of them are my Ph.D. 's and both
actually engaged in paleobotany in western
Ame r ic a .
And, of course, there are literally scores
of friends. When I want to find out something
about conditions of deposition on the ocean floor
I may talk at lunch with Maurice Ewing of Colum
bia University who knows more about the ocean
floor than any other man, guess. He's made a
lot of deep sea soundings.
That brings me to an aspect of my work which
runs through it all the way and which has been
emphasized more than anyone else has ever empha
sized it, the quantitative approach. Most paleon
tologists, past and present, give a list of the
plants or animals in a flora or a fauna. Some
times they would say that a certain animal or
plant was the most abundant. Sometimes they
,.
would mention that one was rare. Well, only in
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Chaney: the most general terms. Very early, in 1923 to
be exact in fact, even in 1916, my first flora,
but in 1923 on a large scale I counted, identi
fied in the field, and tabulated thousands of
leaves determining the proportion of each spe
cies in the flora,
Daniel: How did you define your frame of reference for
this?
Chaney: What frame of reference?
Daniel: Of leaves per what unit area?
Chaney: I used cubic feet, but it didn't particularly
matter,, A ten thousand unit, ten thousand leaves,
is a good workable unit. It's more than I can
get in many floras. I have studied floras in
which I had fifty thousand, and after one has
collected ten thousand or fifty thousand there
aren't many new things coming in and the percent
ages hold pretty constant. You can find out
what's rare and what's abundant, and you also
can find out what's missing that might be ex
pected*
Now, these quantitative studies are a part
of all of the papers of our group out here and
of almost no one else's. An Englishman did work
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Chaney: of this sort, probably before mine, on a carboni
ferous flora, but it was very different.
For example, this manuscript I have around
here has in it an exhausting, not exhaustively,
an exhaustingly complete discussion of rarity as
well as abundance. And I find that plants which
are rare are usually represented by winged seeds,
which blow through the forest, such as pine,
spruce, seeds of plants that live in the high
levels. In other words, these rare plants gave
me an insight into what was on the hillsides
above. The abundant plants were those living
down in the valley near the sites of deposition.
So it's possible to do quite a little with topo
graphy. That's one of the tough ones. We've
always worked on climate, but topography has been
comparatively little-known.
I'm working over to topography by means of
this quantitative tool. I don't think it ' s a
well-made tool as yet and I'm working on another
research project now in Japan on methods estab
lishing sound quantitative procedure, and I'm
doing it just like this:
I go to the shore of an ocean or a lake in
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Chaney : Japan where the sediments are volcanic lite those
of the past in western America, where the trees
are more nearly those of the American Tertiary
than any living anywhere except in China where
I can't get to them. There I count leaves. I
sit on the ground, pull out leaves from a foot-
square unit, and count them by the hundred or
the thousand. I've been doing this thoroughly
since 191? but the Japanese work is on an inten-
sive scale.
I hope to find out why it is that some leaves
which we might expect to have been present are
rare or absent. Poison oak, for example. There
are quite a good many poison oak seeds but poi
son oak leaves are rarely present. I recall
listing it In only one flora. Have you ever
looked for poison oak leaves the day after they
blew off the bush? They're beautifully red In
the late summer.
I shall never forget the time I went out
watching them pretty carefully to see what the
leaves looked like. I couldn't find any. They
were all shriveled up. Foliage like that doesn't
get into the record. Azaleas, not the heavy
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Chaney: evergreen rhododendron, but occidentalis. Azalea
has a mushy leaf. So does hazel. Neither one of
them Is common. They are almost entirely absent
in the fossil record.
Are we going to assume there weren't any
hazels, azaleas, and poison oaks? We had to work
out some way of explaining what we don't have as
well as what we do have.
Now, this is getting way over into the theo
retical side. And I like it. I don't know whe
ther it's going to amount to anything. I don't
know whether my work amounts to anything or not.
I know that someone is 'going to do it sometime.
If I get enough done someone will start where I
leave off. If I don't it may be a hundred years
before someone gets in the mood. There's no rush.
I'm not in the least impatient to get there. I
like theoretical paleobotany, that's why I do it,
but there's no particular reason why all the juice
should be squeezed out .of the grape in my life
time.
Thank God, I got Metasequoia in my lifetime.
It makes me shudder to think of having died, say
at fifty-five. I was fifty-eight when I saw it.
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Chaney: If I had died at fifty-five I would have been prac
tically unbaptized. Not that it was an earth-
shaking experience but it certainly has affected
me profoundly. In the same way if I can tumble
onto some of the significant facts of accumula
tion in my lifetime I'll enjoy it, but whether
I do or not someone will eventually get around
to it.
Some of these vertebrate paleontology boys
whom I mentioned, interested in ecology, are do
ing quantitative work and watching out for the
same thing. Incidentally, they're finding lots
of tiny little jaws of rodents and even teeth,
individual teeth of rodents so small you can
hardly--you can see them but they're the size of
a pinhead, some of them, which have been almost
completely unknown. In general I've been told
(it's in the books), rodents were present but
rare. They are extremely abundant if you look
for them, look for the little, almost micro-organ
isms, not quite. They're just too small to find
readily.
So the quantitative side of it involving this
approach of the factors which affect preservation
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Chaney: interests me very much and probably Interests me
more now than working up floras does. Other
people can work up the floras,
Daniel: It would be interesting to hear about some floras.
Chaney: Well the Bridge Creek flora has dominant Meta-
sequoia, with alder, oak, maple, and fifty other
species,
Daniel: These are different combinations?
Chaney: That's the flora. The flora that comes next in
the John ^ay section is the Mascall, which is
Miocene. Instead of dominant dawn redwood (Meta-
sequoia), it has swamp cypress, Taxodium, a dif
ferent setting, a swampy situation. I've worked
on floras ever since 191? and I'll doubtless con
tinue. I'm working on some now. I like to work
on a lot of floras. The results of what I and
other people have been doing, for example the
ge of lor a idea, have come out of that. The fact
that there have been great units of vegetation
which lived on the earth for tens of millions of
years and which shifted their area, not necessar
ily getting larger, they may even have contracted,
for the geoflora move from, say Alaska to Cali
fornia over a period of fifty or sixty million
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Chaney: years. One has to have a lot of little floras,
little -units before the geoflora Idea is possible.
There have to be many dots on the curve. You
can't draw the curve very well if you have only
one or two dots, two or three.
At the present time I'm very much fed up with
paleontologists, not with paleontology. We have
in the Paleontology Department a man who should
never be in the University but who has political
acumen and plenty of energy, not much education.
He's running things now and has all the young men
terribly cowed. When I retired he was all for
heaving me out. That was a little too raw. So
I'm in a noisy, dusty little hole where there
aren't really adequate facilities for work and I
go there as seldom as possible. I work at the
Radiation Laboratory. This is a personal matter
but perhaps it's just as well to get it on tape.
The man I'm referring to is Stirton,
This is relevant only because it is entirely
possible during the next ten or twenty or however
many years there are of my life I'll do most of
my work in Japan, or get seriously to work on my
Japanese porcelain which I've been working with
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Chaney :
Daniel :
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Danie 1 :
Chaney :
for many decades. I have a very large collection.
Work that goes on in the field to some extent de
pends on the leadership that is exerted at any
one time?
Of course. The leadership of a man like Stir ton
is preposterous.
What is his chief interest?
Vertebrate paleontology. He's a very energetic,
hard-working man, has many good qualities, cer
tainly. He is uneducated and lacks good Univer
sity manners.
What do you mean 'uneducated? 1
I mean it literally. He doesn't pronounce techni
cal words. He's recently written a textbook which
from all sides is receiving giggles and criticism.
He doesn't know things but that doesn't bother
him. Specific little things like this: he calls
a eye ad a cocoa palm, whereas he means a sago
palm plants as different as a rabbit and a por
cupine much more so, a rabbit and a lizard.
But that means nothing to him. The textbook
has much merit, incidentally, as does Stirton.
What is his chief merit?
He's hard-working and... I guess that's about it.
I don't think it's appropriate for me to give an
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119
Chaney: appraisal of his scholastic achievement. All I
would say is that it is largely on the systematic
level. There's very little in the way of ideas
in it, as far as I know.
Daniel: When did he come to the department?
Chaney: He was in the museum and against my earnest ef
forts
Daniel: You were chairman, weren't you?
Chaney: Not at that time. Against my earnest effort he
got his foot in the tent, like the camel, do you
remember? So there isn't any room for some of
the Arabs any more. Now, I don't feel especially
bitter about it. It's a disgrace for any uni
versity to have a man like that call the shots,
but he does. He has a good deal of political
power.
Daniel: What is his chief research activity?
Chaney: I think one would say he's working on mammals of
Australia. He's found very, very few. I don't
think there are very many there.
But he's mostly one of these very busy or
ganizers. The whole story you can't tell a
story like this. I'm not even going to hint on
the tape at where the trouble lies other than to
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Chaney: say that private contributions may cause more mis
fortune to a department than as though we went
slower and depended on public funds,
Daniel: Is this a problem, in general, in institutions
receiving money from different sources?
Chaney: Oh, I guess. It raises the devil with the Zoology
Department. I talked to your father-in-law about
it at various times in the thirties. Somebody
comes along and wants to give money and then in
dicates how it's to be spent. I read a letter
once from the person who gave this particular
money chiding President Sproul for not having
fired me sooner. Of course, I was never fired
at all. Private funds may subvert the morals of
a place and it's pretty hard to have integrity
if you're interested most of all in getting
money .
Of course there are two sides to such a ques
tion. I'm giving one side. The fact remains that
as a senior professor I am deprived of the use,
the ready use, of material I have collected In
the last forty years, while two graduate students
sit in the room which I should have.
It was strictly a matter of revenge because
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Chaney: Brother Stirton knows that I blocked his entry
into the University and he waited for his time
and got even, or maybe a little more than even.
Daniel: However, I'm convinced this kind of thing does
not really stop you at all.
Chaney: I don't have any ulcers either. I rarely think
about it .
However, I have the good fortune to work with
nen like Lawrence and McMillan and Alvarez. I'm
probably not going to get out of paleontology,
but I'm more interested in people, in human re
lations. We are going to have a new building
soon and maybe I'll have better facilities.
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VIII. DEVELOPING THE CURRICULUM IN PALEOBOTANY
Danle 1 :
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
You had a large share in opening up the ideas of
the department when you did take over and you ex
panded the curriculum in paleontology.
Yes, The Idea was to have two kinds of paleon
tologists. The kind I like better was geologic
ally inclined; the other kind was biologically
inclined. It was simple enough. I don't know
that well, anyone would have seen it. But the
biologically inclined people took more courses
in zoology or botany. They all took some. The
geologically inclined people took more courses
in geology, and the really good ones took more
courses in both. They are the people who had
to have everything.
How did you develop the elements of the expanded
major? Had you patterned this on the curriculum
at any other university?
Oh no, just sat down and looked over the catalog
and figured out what they should take. I con
sulted with Bruce Clark who was the invertebrate
paleontologist at that time about what an inver-
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Chaney: tebrate paleontologist should take. And I consul
ted with Charles Camp, the vertebrate paleontolo
gist, about what vertebrate paleontologists should
take. And I suppose I had talked, I'm sure I
had, to W. D. Matthew, ray predecessor, about all
this.
Anyway, we worked up a series of course se
quences which are useful. Most of our students
take the geologically-emphasized sequence, I'm
glad to say, because paleontology as I view it
here is a way of figuring out the history of the
earth, not the history of the plant kingdom or
the animal kingdom, but of the earth. Now, I
repeat, figuring out the history of the animal
or the plant kingdom Is Just as valuable, maybe
more so, but I'm Interested in the earth, not in
kingdoms, so that merely expresses my personal
pr eference.
Also it's something more than that because
most paleontologists earn their living geologic
ally. A majority of them earn their living work
ing for oil companies and there's scarcely any
place there for a strictly biological emphasis
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at all. That's earth history, applied earth his
tory.
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Most universities have paleontology courses
Daniel:
Chaney :
in geology departments. There are some univer
sities that have paleontology courses in zoology
or botany. Some have personnel in Zoology and
botany able to cover zoology and paleontology in
the or case, and botany and paleontology in the
other. This is rather a desirable way to do it,
I think.
It all comes down to organization. We have
more departments here than most universities.
If we straddle our departments there's no disad
vantage. Actually I have had, because of my em
phasis, fewer students from the Botany Department
than from the Geology Department. But that's be
cause I'm mostly a geologist, I guess.
This curriculum which took shape in about 1931 has
remained constant?
So far as I know. I haven't looked at it care
fully in the last several years, but I don't think
it's changed much. I'll do that between now and
the next time I see you and let you know, but I
doubt if there's been much change.
Course Content
*K.
Daniel: As department head, you were responsible for the
arrangement of a suitable curriculm. As a
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Daniel:
Chaney :
teacher, what did you feel you should impart in
your courses?
When I came into the University I told Sproul I
was going to give idea courses, not fact courses.
When we were talking about it, I said, "If you
want me to teach a lot of facts you had better
tell me right now because I don't want the job,"
or words to that effect. I've always taught idea
courses with a lot of well there was a sort of
goofy appraisal published and it sold for fifty
cents or something, it's around here somewhere.
Well, in professor ratings I was rated very
high on ideas and social and political point of
view. Some other people whom you would expect,
and very popular people, much more popular than
I, were rated very low on those ideas. Well,
they had other things to do, in other words,
which recommended them to students.
Yes, I've been conscious of it. I've always
been interested in human relations social, poli
tical, and economic. I worked conservation in,
which was certainly, well, economic, if not so
cial and political; it sure is economic. In all
my lectures I give lectures frequently to organi-
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Chaney: zatlons I give conservation talks.
Daniel: One question apparently leaves quite an impression.
This has to do with the religious implications of
geology.
Chaney: Yes, and the theory of evolution which, in paleo,
students come up against, kids from the sticks
who think that makes monkeys of them. I have
always treated all aspects of the subject, in
cluding the anatomical names of the body which
frequently aren't mentioned: anus, and so on.
If they ' ve fitted into a sentence I've always
said them without an Instant's hesitation. And
I've always indicated that there could be well,
I have put it this way: I'm going to give you the
evidence; I don't care in the least whether you
believe in evolution. But if I ask a cfluestion
in the final about evolution and you don't believe
in it, that doesn't mean you're to answer the ques
tion wrong. You Just say, "This is what the pro-
fessor says, and I don't believe it." That will
be a correct answer. I don't care what you be
lieve, but I want you to know what I said about it.
A number of students have come in and told me,
not very many, actually, that they don't believe
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Chaney: In it. Mostly they were pretty dumb. I always
looked at their grades afterward. Most students
who are hit for the first time with this consider
it carefully, and they have the evidence, which
to me at least and to most people in my field is
rather conclusive, ^-t has nothing to do with be
lieving in God or Jesus. It doesn't repudiate
the Bible; in fact, I read the first book, the
first chapter of Genesis, and have for years,
commenting sentence by sentence on its applica
tion to what I have told them, that in the begin
ning the Lord created heaven and earth, the earth
was dark and something or other. Well... okay. I
point out that the Jews or whoever they were who
wrote the originals on this couldn't possibly
have known all we know now about astronomy and
geology and biology, and they are rather vague in
spots, but they certainly had the general Idea of
the cosmogony, the Genesis cosmogony and my cos
mogony are essentially the same,
I've always done that. I think it's a good
idea because I'm not destroying the Bible. Natur
ally, I guess I have made a few comments about
the Flood and the Ark, wondering what the dickens
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Chaney: the lions ate while they were on It, pointing out
that they must have had four sheep instead of two
so that the lions could eat two of the sheep. It
seemed to me desirable to point out that we can't
be too literal.
I've never got Into the subject of Jesus in
class. Outside I tell students or anybody else
what I think about it, but there's been no occa
sion to mention the particular tenets of Chris
tianity in class. I'm obviously no Christian,
but it's nothing to brag about or to talk about
except when it's relevant.
I think we have to give the students some
thing before we take something else away. You
can't refuse to take evidence just because It
doesn't fit your ideas.
At the end of the course the students have a
chance to say what they think of the theory of
evolution. I don't care whether they like it or
not, but I want them to know how It's developed.
The course context has nothing to do with the
student's personal beliefs or faith. The student
must know the subject matter of the course whe
ther he believes in my conclusions or not.
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Daniel: You also talked about minorities.
Chaney: For years I talked about minorities. I told stu
dents about the time I was in Manchuria when I
was the only Caucasian in the theater, a variety
show, and they were having some sort of skit, and
in comes the comic of the cast made up as a Cau
casian, wearing a checked suit, a red tie with
a diamond stickpin in it, and wearing a derby
hat. This is the Japanese idea, this was a
Japanese show, of a Caucasian, and he brought
down the house. Everything he said was ridicu
lous . People around me looked at me , more or
less apologetically. They realized that I was
being made ridiculous, too. They didn' want to
make me as an individual ridiculous, but here
was this silly Caucasian who was the butt of all
the jokes. Well, I have been in the minority
more than once.
I told about one night in Bart lea down in
British Guiana. Without knowing it was going
to happen at all I got into a river town on a
river boat. I had another Caucasian, a paleo-
botanist, with me, and the man to whom I had a
letter from William Beebe was a Negro, and
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Chaney: everyone In town was a Negro! There Just wasn't
anybody but Negroes there, A British judge who
was going up to try a case was a Caucasian. But
the three of us were a very small minority. Well,
when we walked up the street parents pointed us
out to their children as something very funny,
worth taking a look at.
So my conclusion was that everyone is a mi
nority, If he happens to be In a certain place.
It's purely a matter of chance. The mores of
any group aren't right simply because they are
mores and they certainly aren't wrong. It's
just the way we do things. Some of this sounds
rather fatuous, but remember that in this class
that we 're speaking of, there were mostly fresh
men and sophomores, very inexperienced boys and
girls.
And a lot of them had, as I had when I was
in college, an Idea that right was right and
wrong was wrong. It's just one of the little
dragons that I've always been trying to slay.
Conventional standards aren't necessarily right,
although I think they often are, oftener than
not.
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Daniel: The prevailing climate of opinion develops the
standards.
Chaney: I'm not opposed to opinions because they're con
ventional at all. We'd get nowhere If we didn't
have some conventions.
Daniel: You want them to understand the derivations of
conventions,
Chaney: Yes. Often I have said when I have started a
course, "This course is listed as a course In
paleontology. Actually it ' s a course in dis
crimination and timing. If you believe every
thing I say you may get a good grade, but you
won't be very smart, because I'm probaby going
to make mistakes , n and so on, debunking the
idea of infallibility.
I'm perhaps speaking a little more force
fully than I would to a group, but that's the
Idea. I'm giving you a thumbnail sketch of It,
Daniel: Apparently you made your lessons quite clear.
Chaney: I hope so. A point of view is a lot more impor
tant than paleontology. As I've said, this be
ginning course is not a professional course. It
may become one. Plenty of people who took It
as freshmen have gone on to be paleontologists,
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Chaney: very good ones, but the principal benefits are
habits of thought and attitudes, a general atti
tude toward life and history. I've often started
a course by saying, "This is a course in history.
Maybe you don't like history." Most people don't;
I didn't.
Daniel: Paleobotany is a special kind of history,
Chaney: Very.
Daniel: Chairmanship of the department didn't curtail your
field trips, did it?
Chaney: Well, it was a small department in those days.
There were only two other men. And we didn't have
as many students in the University. When I went
away I handed over the paper-signing duties to
Professor Louderback with the geology department,
an old and trusted friend.
It was satisfactory, to me at least.
I went to China in 1933 and again in 1937.
Both times I was still chairman of the depart
ment. I think my last year as chairman was 1939,
but it didn't affect my schedule any. Most of
my field work I did summers anyhow, maybe a long
summer beginning in May and getting back in Octo
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Daniel:
Chane y :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Danie 1 :
Chaney:
Daniel: You continued to give courses in the department?
Chaney: Oh yes, I gave my regular courses. Often there
weren't courses in the second semester; I could
bunch them into the first half of a semester and
leave early.
Are there any other aspects of the paleobotany
curriculum you would like to discuss?
We haven't talked about graduate students.
n -i- j
Go ahead,
I never had a great many. It isn't a field that
attracts a great many students. There aren't
many jobs. Most of my students were oldish. Some
of them were quite young, but most of them were
oldish.
What do you mean by 'oldish? 1
Well, they were men who had been out teaching.
They were in their middle thirties when they came
to me. I've had some just off the B.S. assembly
line. Several of my students are within a few
years of me, as old as I am.
Daniel: In teaching, do you think you have some of your
greatest satisfaction among the graduate students?
Chaney: Oh yes. I've enjoyed the undergraduates very
much, too. Undergraduates are, a lot of them,
developing a very receptive frame of mind, and
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Chaney: they ape getting new ideas, some of which they
refuse to accept.
c
It's very Interesting to talk to them. I've
had students who came back to me and hoped that
I had changed their point of view. They hadn't,
you see, and they hoped that I was going to be
saved from going to hell.
Daniel: Oh, I see.
Chaney: They were fond of me and didn't want me to have
to continue on the path of course, it's very
difficult to get me off the path.
Daniel: This conversion attempt didn't happen very often,
did it?
Chaney: Not very often, no.
Daniel: Do you think there's more interest in paled now,
for Instance, than there was 15>,20,30, on? lj.0 years
ago?
Chaney: No, I don't think so. A man named Lull at Yale
had a big class there. Richard Lull, forty years
ago; and William Brewer, though he didn't have a
course In paleontology, taught at Harvard to a
full house. It was a small group compared to
our big classes.
I don't think there's any great resurgence
of interest. I think that newspaper publicity
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Chaney: and the fact that everybody knows about dinosaurs
may attract some people, but the word 'fossil 1
is still a terra of opprobrium*
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Daniel;
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
IX. COMMENTS ON EDUCATION
You've no doubt been aware of various comments and
criticisms about our elementary and secondary
schools. What changes would you make to avoid
defects you may have perceived in your children's
education?
I'm not altogether clear whether the defects in
my children's educations are the result of poor
schooling or poor parental control. Ellen never
learned to study until she went to a private
school where she had to. She was the only one
of the three who knew what it was all about when
they entered college.
How was your education different flom that of your
children?
When I was a child we came home and did our home
work. I was interested in knowing my multiplica
tion tables, and in knowing my spelling. I was
interested in being the best kid in the class
and I always was, through grade school.
Why did you want to be the best kid in the class?
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Chaney: I don't know. I wanted to be because I wanted to
be , I guess. My children didn't want to be be
cause they didn't want to be.
Daniel: But why do you think they didn't?
Chaney: I haven't the slightest idea. I don't think my
parents necessarily instilled in me the desire
to excel, but I had then, and I have still, a
competitive spirit which a great many children,
including mine, most of the time seem to lack.
I don't know. I'm puzzled by it. I haven't any
idea.
Daniel: This is something that puzzles a great many people.
In retrospect can you think of any children within
your children's group who did have this desire to
excel?
Chaney: I don't remember those children well enough.
My daughter in college, with good study ha
bits, did not have sufficient grades for Phi
Beta Kappa, although she could nave readily
enough. Her rationalization was that she
didn't want to be known as a brain. There was
social pressure in the sorority house.
Daniel: She was a sorority girl?
Chaney: She was more interested in being like the other
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138
Ghaney: girls. They were very fine girls, and most of
them whom I know anything about are successful
and happy, as she is.
Being a Phi Beta Kappa certainly has meant
nothing to Mrs. Chaney, not being has meant no
thing to me. I didn't, as you see, retain my
ambition to be the best through high school and
college or I'd have been a Phi Bete, There were
other things I was more interested in.
Daniel: You are assuming that "the best" equals Phi Beta;
there's a difference of opinion about this.
Chaney: Yes, well, the best grades, then.
Daniel: Did it ever occur to you to find out about the
study habits of your daughter's group?
Chaney: Oh, *'ve talked to hundreds of girls, sorority
girls, about their study habits, and a girl who
slips down grade points has a study table and is
fairly rigidly, only fairly I guess, supervised,
and they generally try to build them up because
they don't want girls flunking out and leaving
the sorority. It's a self -pre serving institu
tion, this study table. As for the study habits
of the girls who are getting "C" or better, they
go out, they go to the library. I have only a
*
general knowledge. I've never followed anyone
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Chaney ;
Daniel
Chaney:
carefully, except my own children, ray sons who
lived largely at home, rather than in a f rater-
nity house, where they studied a lot but were
awfully slow at it. They didn't know how to
read. They didn't know how to organize, appar
ently.
Both of them are bright, especially the older
one. He has, for example, in qualifying tests in
engineering, been in the top three or four in
every examination; and he's taken quite a few.
He now has a very high rating and has gone stead
ily up, excelling scholastically, at least excel
ling in examinations. But he was never able to
do it in college,
Examinations
This leads to some consideration of the ways of
evaluating students' knowledge. In your Depart
ment of Paleontology what kind of examinations
did you have? Did you have objective examinations?
No. Students used to ask for them so once I gave
a true and false. And they naturally expected
that half the questions would be true and half
false. I gave them all true.
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Chaney :
Daniel;
Chaney:
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Oh dear!
Almost all the class got zero because they answered
ten of the twenty false and ten true. I kidded
the daylights out of them and threw the examina
tion out, and told them I would never waste their
time and mine with such a silly examination again,
and I have never had one since. I occasionally
have had a question that involved a true-false,
but that seemed to me an elegant way of showing
the absurdity of such questions in a developmen
tal subject. I think there are perhaps some sub
jects that would be suitable, but science Is not,
and it was not a memory course. They figured
they had to have ten right and ten wrong and all
but a few, as I say, a very few, got zero in the
examination. It was no test of their ability at
all. It was a test of their guessing, and they
guessed very badly.
What value do you attach to examinations?
Of course one of rthe values and purposes of an ex
amination is to force the student to review the
material. That is perhaps the principal value,
or the only value to the student.
There is another value his ability to put
down what he knows in an organized fashion and
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Chaney: In a short time. We all have to take examina
tions of that sort: perhaps when we write a let
ter, perhaps when we make remarks in court or in
some other important situation. We're all taking
what is the equivalent of an examination through
out our lives.
And I think that examinations aren't without
value to the instructor. Of course, they are of
value in giving him a quantitative basis for as
signing grades. I have with advanced students,
given an examination more than once, involving
their writing an examination in the course.
Daniel: That sort of examination displays their grasp
of the entire course.
Chaney: Yes, it stumps them for awhile, and some of the
questions are very badly written. But one can
tell pretty well what they got out of the course
by the questions that they think are important.
It might be added that from some of the examina
tions I've seen of my colleagues they wouldn't
be graded very high on their examinations either.
Some of them, in my opinion, are pretty bad.
Daniel: For the student one of the most helpful tricks is
to find out what kind of examination the teacher
gives.
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Daniel
Chaney :
Daniel:
There was a very clever student of mine, Pred
Peters, a lawyer, who unfortunately died when he
was quite a young man, who ran seminars in geol
ogy and paleo. He knew me. He had had my course.
He knew me extremely well. I never told him what
questions I was going to ask, but in his seminar
he always covered every question that I asked be
cause he knew so well what my course was like.
He knew me very well. He was a very clever fel
low. He would have made a wonderful teacher, in
cidentally.
Did all of your children go to the University of
California?
Yes. The boys both went to other schools in con
nection with their army and navy training. David
went to the University of Indiana. Dick went to
Columbia. But they graduated from the University
of California
The Student in a Large University
Your children all had experience as undergraduates
at the University of California at Berkeley. This
leads to the question about the University, its
size and its te aching
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143
Chaney: I think that ]a rge classes place a premium on
being aggressive and a penalty on being retiring.
They place a premium on a strongly-developed com
petitive spirit and a penalty on an easy-going
attitude.
All of my children were rather easy-going.
None of them was very competitive, and in large
classes they didn't always show what they knew.
If they had been in, say, Pomona or Reed College
their professors doubtless would have been well
acquainted with them and would have known that
they had a great deal to offer, and I presume
their grades would have been better. I think
there is that aspect of a large university. Of
course, it's commonplace to say that a larger
university has a better staff. Compare Gal and
Stanford, for example. Stanford is a wonderful
school. Actually in many ways I like it better
than the University of California. I'm speak
ing of geology, geological sciences. But it
doesn't have the staff. Say we have three or
four tiroes as many students. Say you multiply
the number of distinguished faculty members by
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Chaney: three or four, it's still far short of Califor
nia's. They just don't have It, and almost no
small school does. An opportunity to study with
a distinguished man is important if the student
is receptive.
I can't seem to remember what my sons and
daughter got out of distinguished professors.
I can remember one very distinguished one whom
they didn't think very much of and presumably
they didn't get much from, although the fault
may have been theirs.
Daniel: I was going to ask you how well you think the
really gifted and talented faculty members are
brought into relationship with the students.
Chaney: There are a number of departments geology, chem
istry, physics with many first-class men. Zool
ogy* too, probably. I know it less well these
days. It had a distinguished faculty. These de
partments have first-class men giving elementary
courses. I don't think there's any question that
a lower division student can profitably take
courses with outstanding men In science. What
it's like in English I have no idea whatever.
In mathematics, teaching assistants, and In
foreign languages teaching assistants, that Is,
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Chaney: pre-Ph.D. , graduate students, presumably well-
selected, are responsible for classes with, I
suppose, some supervision although I'm inclined
to think they don 1 t always have much.
Daniel: You are in a position to say something about the
relationship of teaching assistants to faculty
me mbe r s .
Chaney: In paleo we usually use teaching assistants under
several instructors and in several subjects. That
way they learn a good deal. They don't stay Just
with their specialty but learn a good deal about
teaching the whole subject, and I think that's a
very fine plan. Ours is the only department I
know about in that respect, but I have no doubt
that other departments do it.
Of course in English and modern language and
mathematics teaching assistants give the elemen
tary course and there is no choice of subject.
They are independent teachers,
I have rarely if ever seen a teaching assistant
in paleo whom I would want to give the chance to
teach a course for a semester. I have gone away
and left the class with a teaching assistant for
one period or maybe two. The results weren't al
ways good, either. I think our teaching assistants
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346
Chaney: are probably as good as those in other departments.
I rather think our standards in science are higher
in elementary courses,
I can't conceive of allowing teaching assist
ants to take over full charge of courses, although
a mature one, one who has had teaching experience
elsewhere, one of these men who comes back at the
age of thirty, who has been an instructor at the
University of Kansas or whatever, he'd obviously
be the eligible member for independent teaching.
However, we have such men as teaching assist-
ants in paleo now but they aren't giving indepen
dent courses. I can't generalize about other de
partments. I know how it is in paleo.
Daniel: Do you think that a university of this quality
might be more effectively used only by graduate
students?
Chaney: Well, we're geared for about 20,000 students and
that would mean -that we would have 20,000 gradu
ate students if there were no undergraduates.
Let's say we wouldn't have quite as many because
the staff would spend more time on each. Let's
say we had only 15,000 graduate students as
against the combination of 20,000 today. That
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Chaney: would mean, when we got the thing geared up and
running that every year thousands of advanced
degree holders would go out into the world.
What would they do? I don't think there are
jobs for them. There certainly aren't in pale
ontology.
Daniel: I hadn't thought of t he question in that way.
Chaney: Well, what would we do with the rest of the Uni
versity? We're built for 20,000.
Daniel: Is the building program now meeting the needs of
the University?
Chaney: There are some soft spots. Economics still has
Old Soph Hall. But anthro is now out of its
shack and geology is moving out of Bacon H a n
in a year or so. We're moving out of the Mining
Building where we aren't wanted because the space
is needed for engineers. Mathematics is moving
into a new building in a matter of months. Dwin-
elle Hall has been crowded, but I think with
various departments moving out, there will be
more room. Math, for example, is moving out
shortly,
Daniel: You don't think there is any particular advantage
or disadvantage to the students with one arrange
ment or another of undergraduate or graduate
schools?
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Daniel:
Chaney:
Most of the students in our sciences who are
studying as graduates come from other places
anyway, so It doesn't make any difference to
them. They wouldn't have been here as under
graduates anyhow. I think it would be a very
Interesting study I've never seen any figures
on it --to go through the whole of the graduate
enrollment and find out their sources. I'll
venture to say more than two-thirds of the gradu
ate students in paleo got v their bachelors of sci
ence elsewhere than at Berkeley.
That might be true In paleo and not true In
English or philosophy. My guess is that a care
ful study would show it and I think it should be
made,
There are some people who feel the student is
more adequately prepared in smaller undergraduate
schools than those which exist at Berkeley, and
Los Angeles.
*"
I don't know how to solve that problem. Of course,
you can make Berkeley the undergraduate and UCLA
the graduate, or the reverse. This much should
be said: that all these smaller institutions,
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Chaney: state and otherwise, which are putting on gradu
ate programs are going to run Into trouble hand
ling their physics and chemistry In light of
modern emphasis. You can't study nuclear phy
sics or nuclear chemistry on a shoestring.
Special Opportunities in Research!
The Lawrence Radiation Laboratory and
The Atomic Energy Commission
Installation at Livermore
Chaney: It's interesting to note that even this great uni
versity doesn't have the facilities for graduate
study in physics and chemistry that the Livermore
laboratory does, a part of the University. We
have equipment at the Livermore Laboratory which
is not found in any university, in fact not found
anywhere else in the world, in some cases.
Daniel: There are students at the Livermore laboratory?
Chaney: They may go out. I have been concerned with
building up the student aspect of Livermore lab
oratory for several years, and we are just begin
ning to get a flow of students. It's only a
trickle at present.
Daniel: Yes. Graduate courses are offered there aren't
they?
Chaney: Yes. Graduate courses leading to a master's de
gree.
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Daniel: All the preparation for the master's degree can
be completed at Livermore?
Chaney : Only half of it may be done at Livermore , the
other half in Berkeley.
Daniel: What about work toward a Ph.D? Is that also al
lowed there?
Chaney: No Ph.D. curriculum has been set up, but iji ef
fect it will be shortly in this way: the students
enrolled as Ph.D. candidates at Berkeley can go
to Livermore for their research under the direc
tion of members of the Berkeley staff or presum
ably of the Livermore staff. We have more Ph.Ds
by far in physics and chemistry at Livermore than
we have at Berkeley. I don't know what the fac
tor is, but it's four or five times as many. In
physics and chemistry, to a much lesser extent
in engineering, members of the Berkeley staff
are members of the Radiation Laboratory staff,
and some of them have Livermore duties. Edward
Teller is at Livermore, And anyone concerned
with Teller's type of physics, and those who
wish to study it, would presumably wish to go to
Livermore, though until recently he might have
taken a course with Teller on this campus. As
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151
Chaney: director of Livermore laboratory I'm sure he no
longer teaches a formal course here, but that's
just a very recent development since Director
York left for Washington.
We have a number of the Berkeley staff who
are consultants at Livermore and a number of the
Livermore staff who regularly come into Berkeley,
either to teach or to carry on research. Let's
suppose, to make a very simple case, that a piece
of research involved electronic computers of a
very high degree. Our electric computer bat
tery at Liverraore is, so far as I know at pre
sent, the most complete in the world. It won't
be very long, perhaps tomorrow, there'll be a
better one, but it just happens we have a very
fine electronic computer, very excellent equip
ment. The only electronic computer in Berkeley
is a small, student, very simple affair. It's
useful but probably wouldn't be useful for re
search, certainly not in mathematical research.
A professor who is guiding a student in a field
that involved either the theory of computation
or the results of computation would direct his
student to Livermore if he didn't have facili-
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Ghaney: Anyone who was involved in a field of phy
sics which included a need for a reactor would
send his student to Livermore or to some other
place where there was a reactor. This is regu
larly done. Brookhaven--I'ia speaking in a gen
eral way, not knowing actually must have stu
dents from Princeton and Pennsylvania, Harvard,
Yale, c olunibia, and all of the other schools
that are part of the Brookhaven group.
Argonne must have many students from the Uni
versity of Chicago, Northwestern, and other edu
cational centers of that area.
And insofar as there are students in the
South, they would go to Oak Ridge, and so on.
Daniel: You have been talking about Livermore. Is there
any more exact explanation of Livermore?
Chaney: It's an Atomic Energy Commission installation
which has been turned over to the University to
operate. Funds are supplied, money is expended
according to University regulations, for sal
aries and purchasing, personnel, everything ac
cording to University regulations. It's part
of the University.
Whereas the Lawrence Radiation Laboratory in
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Chaney: Berkeley is almost entirely a research organiza
tion, Livermore is a research and development.
Livermore stresses the development side and the
Lawrence Radiation Laboratory has stressed the
research side. The materials that are tested in
Nevada or in the Pacific are developed and manufac
tured in part at our Livermore laboratory. They
are also manufactured, no doubt, across the road
at Sandia.
There's a great plant, 61^0 acres, I don't
know how many millions of dollars worth of in
stallation, into which we moved in 1953* I guess
it was, and which now has nearly four thousand
employees. It has a bigger staff than the Uni-
versity of California at Berkeley.
Daniel: Is there any particularly aggressive recruitment
program afoot to attract young men into the stu
dies leading them to work at Livermore?
Chaney: We take all kinds. We recruit bachelors of sci
ence in physics, chemistry, mathematics, and
engineering, largely.
Daniel: You do make an attempt to encourage these people
to come?
Chaney: We go to their institutions. We look for them
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Chaney : and offer them jobs and pay the expenses of their
family up here If they have to move and we do all
sorts of things. We have to compete to some ex
tent with the airplane companies and other big
companies that are interested in similar activi
ties.
Livermore has a majority of young men with
only the bachelor's degree. We're giving them
opportunities to take graduate work. That's the
important part of it, so they can become master's
degree holders. Under some circumstances, the
best of them come to Berkeley or go elsewhere to
go on to the doctorate.
Daniel: Did this program exist befor Sputnik went up?
Chaney* Oh yes. Sputnik had no effect at all on us. This
talk of what the Russians are doing is for the
people who read the newspapers, not for the sci
entist.
We are well aware of what's going on. We
know our strengths and our weaknesses, and we
have plenty of strength, I can assure you.
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Ralph W. Chaney during
the forties
X. RADIATION LABORATORY DUTIES
Daniel: When did you develop your relationship with the
Radiation Laboratory?
Chaney : It was during the war.
Daniel: That was during the forties, wasn't it?
Chaney: It was probably in 19i|-3- I went to work for them
in 19lll|-, but I had a close working relationship
before that time.
Daniel: Were you in administration?
Chaney I Yes, entirely. I was assistant director. Dr.
Cooksey was associate director, and Dr. Lawrence,
director. There were three of us .
Daniel: What was your particular niche?
Chaney: Personnel, which during the war was a very broad
field. We had with us a great many foreign--
mostly British physicists and chemists. We had
representatives of many of the big companies like
Westinghouse and General Electric who were here
because they were doing the development work on
our research.
We were in a rush then. We couldn't build a
Livermore laboratory. We had to send our ideas
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Chaney: to Schenectady, or Rochester, to have them manu
factured there, and what came out of Dr. Lawrence's
and the staff's study was made almost entirely
elsewhere and shipped down to Oak Ridge, the area
where the actual process of separating the iso
topes of uranium was carried on.
That was in 19l*lj. and 19i|-5. I retired from the
Radiation Laboratory staff a few weeks after the
bomb was dropped in 19i|5 and went back to paleo,
but I have retained a close association with the
Radiation Laboratory, and for about the last ten
years I have had a consultant status which in
volves my working regularly if there's a big job.
For example, the man who was in charge of pro
fessional personnel died unexpectedly and I took
over that job for a year or a year and a half,
I guess it was.
Various matters relating to manpower come up,
and I have on occasion
Daniel: What do you mean, matters having to do with man
power?
Chaney: I mean, specifically, in the case of a labora
tory the use of men in civilian or military acti
vities, the assignment of men for University and
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Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel :
Chaney :
Danlelf
Chaney:
and research activities, or military duty.
Is this a sort of priority rating?
In effect that's what it is, yes.
You decide?
Well, we don't decide. The local selective ser
vice board decides, but we recommend. And there
have to be laws which guide selective service,
so at one time, a number of years ago, five or
six years ago, it must have been, I spent a good
deal of time in Washington working on the laws
with members of Congress and others.
Does selective service tend to keep the young
men in science with special talent and capacity
at their work?
Selective service selects men to serve their
country in the way they are best fitted. Selec
tion of a boy who's working on a farm to go into
the military might seem desirable unless we're
short of food, in which case he should be kept on
a farm.
Selection of an engineering student to go into
the army would be appropriate unless we're short
of engineers. If it's going to be a long war, we
are going to need engineer graduates. All that
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Chaney: has to be figured out. That Involves manpower
allocation, the term which is applied to the use
of the human resources in the best possible way.
Laws control the activities of selective ser
vice. And if the laws aren't right, if for
example we don't have facilities for holding
first-class physicists in civilian life and
they are subject to being drafted and sent Into
the army to do just ordinary infantry work as
their assignment, the law should be changed.
The law is changed sometimes, though there's
never been anything just like that. The law
must provide means of holding essential men in
civilian capacity.
One trouble with a democracy is that every
mother is sure not only that her son is as good
as everyone else's son but that he shouldn't be
placed in any greater danger.
Daniel: Do you think protective mothers exert a very
significant force In Washington?
Chaney: There's no question about It In Washington. In
wartime I have been in selective service enough
to know that the fan mail that is received and
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Chaney: gets down to the state or local board levels is
tremendous.
Yes, the public opinion in this country I
think is an extremely effective factor. It's al
ways slow and it frequently is too emotional,
perhaps it's always too emotional. The idea that
everyone's son is as good as everyone else'g may
be correct in the eyes of mothers and God, but
not nearly everyone is as useful in a physics
laboratory. For that matter not nearly everyone
is as useful in an infantry company. An effort
is made it should be and is made to select the
men who by training and ability can do outstand
ing jobs. Theoretically, if they can write good
poetry they should be assigned to poetry, though
in wartime we usually forget about that. The
men who are deferred are useful in industry, agri
culture, training, or in research.
We very early had to decide, when I took over
the selective service office in the University in
19l).2, whether we were going to ask only for the
people we had to have , or ask for the people we
would also like to have. We developed our own
classification of the people we simply had to
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Chaney: have, whom we couldn't under any circumstances
spare, and we never lost one of them 8
We didn't ask for and insist upon all the
people we might have liked to have. We always
had a third group that we could replace In a
fairly short time, In a matter of months, that
weren't even worth asking for at all, for more
lhan a brief period of deferment.
I'm going to see tomorrow two of the men I
worked with during the war. They are coming down
to spend the day with me here and at Livermore.
I and one or two others went to Sacramento to
talk to those men and give them our philosophy,
the men we had to have and the men we just wanted.
Then, as the Manhattan Project began to develop,
involving the Radiation Laboratory, we had power
ful aid from the Army and from President Roosevelt,
who knew what we were doing. Most people did not.
The Army didn' t know except in a vague way, I
suppose. Roosevelt knew. So the Manhattan Dis
trict was able to aid us through selective ser
vice and at the height of the fight we never
lost a man we had to have.
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Chaney :
Daniel*
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chane y :
That's a phase of super-selection which "was
important. It kept me extremely busy during the
war,
All this time I was a member and later a
chairman of a draft board, too. It made it
rather comical because I was always writing let
ters to myself.
You certainly knew in detail the governmental
regulations on manpower-allocation.
Well, I'd been catching them in selective service
so I knew the--
You knew what the rules were.
Yes. And there are laws by which all individuals'
rights may be protected. Naturally I knew all
those laws. I was a selective service lawyer.
And knowing those I knew just what I could in
sist on, and then I knew how to go and get still
more. It was extremely interesting, with long
distance calls to Washington, New York, Oak
Ridge in specific cases involving a man we had
to have.
Or we got cases from various organizations in
Berkeley, the industries, General Electric, and
that sort of thing. They were continually get
ting into trouble, didn't have things organized
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Chane y :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
just the way we did. Men used to come to me for
advice, generally governmental organizations, for
help in holding men that were essential.
The selective service work was extremely in
teresting. It's remarkable what a wide range of
people one finds in a university town. We had
convicted murderers, homosexuals, robbers, and
all sorts of things. The story is in their file
and it all has to be looked at and adjusted be
fore a decision can be reached.
This is true in social services.
Yes, It was a phase of social service.
You did a very important piece of work for the
Radiation Laboratory as long as the war was on
and then -
Then our staff was cut drastically and I wanted
to get back into my own field anyway. For a
period of about five years I had only casual and
informal contact. It was around 19^4-9, I suppose,
maybe 195>0, that I went back on an appointment
basis, and I've never had a regular staff basis
since. It's been much better from every stand
point to be a consultant.
Presently, you are the person who is consulted
when there is a question of manpower selection?
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163
Chaney: Yes, It's much more than selective service. The
whole reserve program is involved. The reserves
are members of the armed forces and are not sub
ject to selective service call. We have many prob
lems, many more than during the war, Involving
reservists because the reserve has been built
up. Then, we didn't have a reserve, at least
not one comparable in size.
This is one of the laws that I was working
on, getting reserves. It's a wonderful thing
to have a large group of reservists and ex-re
servists and Rational Q-uard. I don't happen to
know just what the National Guard does. I was a
member of a National Guard regiment once, but I
don't know what it amounts to now. I'm sure
though that the reserve program is a very good
one, and I'm thoroughly in favor of it. And I'm
working right now, this afternoon, until the
minute I came here I was working on it and will
be tomorrow morning.
All sorts of things come up. I've been around
the laboratory now for sixteen year*, not continu
ously, but in touch, very closely associated with
various of the men who are running it and I know
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Daniel:
Cha ne y :
Daniel:
Chaney:
many aspects of it. Of course I'm neither a phy
sicist nor a chemist. I know scarcely anything
about the scientific aspects of it, but the way
it's run I know pretty well. Until it got so
large I seemed to know most of the people in it.
It's altogether too large now to
How large is it?
About two thousand. It's crowding two thousand.
It looks like an industrial establishment.
It 's a big place.
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XI. THE LOYALTY OATH
Daniel: An episode in the history of the University seems
to set Itself apart for comment; what part did
you take in the loyalty oath controversy?
Chaney: Well, I didn't take much of a part. It was In
equity that really got me into the loyalty oath
argument. I was being misrepresented. It an
noys me; it annoyed me then; it will always an
noy HE to be misrepresented. I signed it. It
was a silly sort of thing, but I had signed lots
of oaths.
Daniel: You mean the oath was silly, or the general idea?
Chaney: Well, the idea that it would ever amount to any
thing was rather silly, but I had before that
signed a good many oaths. It was a good deal
like the statement you make on the witness stand:
"I swear to t ell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help me God." It was
in that mood% I thought if it would help I was
for it, and it didn't seem to me that it could
do any harm.
Daniel: You were aware, of course, of the policy of the
Regents?
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166
Chaney: I certainly was, and approved it thoroughly.
So I found, talking around, that the situ
ation was getting serious. And I began to hear
that the faculty, at least a part of the faculty,
and the Regents were in rather violent opposi
tion. So I talked to one of the leaders of the
faculty. He was on the committee appointed, I'm
sure, by the Academic Senate which was meeting
with the Regents. I talked to him and asked him
what the position was. He didn't tell me very
much but he told me that the position was sound.
I heard there was going to be a meeting and
I got myself Invited to it,
Daniel: This is a meeting of the faculty, the conference
committee.
Chaney: It was called "The Committee of 'lj.8 rt or something
or other. I went to it and I was perfectly ap
palled at the point of view expressed there.
Somebody had invited a newsman there to take pic
tures, and maybe sound movies. They talked about
a war chest and they talked about a tax. The
chairman of the meeting was in a nervous emotional
state. I went there feeling as though I was in a
foreign country, and so did some other friends of
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Chaney: mine who were there.
Now, the next morning I made direct contact
with an influential Regent by long distance phone,
and I told him what I had heard the night before,
and I asked him what his side of the story was.
I got a reasonably satisfactory answer. But he
said, "if you want to get the real answer I'll
phone my secretary and ask her to give you a
copy of the minutes of the meeting at which this
disagreement took place." I met her at Dwight
and Shattuck a few hours later with a complete
"transcript, a correct one, of the minutes of the
meeting. There was the most damning stuff in it
said by my representatives. In fairness to them
let me add that one of the Regents was a very
skilled trial lawyer and made suckers of these
men. He got them into situations where they
overstated their cases, the way a clever lawyer
will with a stupid witness whom he wants to dis
credit.
Remember that I, and so far as I know, no
one else of the group in the controversy, saw
this, these minutes with the consent of the man
who turned them over to me. I made copies of
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Chaney: portions of them, and then I did a Paul Revere.
I met with engineers; I met with the medical
school; I met with enough people to get a vote
on the key question, that is, were we going to
repudiate the 19l|-0 or 19i|l ruling of the ^egents
that we don't employ communists. One of my col
leagues at the Regents 1 meeting said that an
overwhelming majority of the faculty was opposed
to this, and that's what started the fireworks.
Now, at that meeting, which took place about
a week later, 79, about 8 per cent voted to sus
tain the Regents. That, I should say, is all I
dido Other people were working on it, too, but
I got the endorsement of the Regents on a mat
ter where I had been misrepresented, I'm glad
that I did. It didn't amount to anything be
cause, incidentally, the Regents involved weren't
very smart, either, and they weren't any smarter
than the faculty. Apparently they loved to fight,
and so when they could have, by making some sim
ple concessions, had what amounted to a victory,
they kept fighting for what they couldn't get
and got soundly licked.
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Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
And probably it served them right. I tfcke no
sides as between stupid people in either group,
and there were stupid R egents and stupid or
rather unwise Regents and unwise faculty members.
But it seemed to me desirable to get a clear
statement as to where the faculty stood on the
Regents' ruling, because if we were against it
we should make a statement, not an unauthorized
statement such as had been made by our represen
tative. At least it proved to be unauthorized
because of the fact that the faculty vote repu
diated that position.
The whole thing of course became very un
pleasant.
Why do you think it became unpleasant?
Well, we all had to get pretty tough.
Do you think that academic people don't like to
be tough?
They like to be tough themselves but yet they
don't like someone else who's tough. I had to
say thiig s about the opposition in order to get
the engineer and the medical school and the agri
culture vote. We had to whip this up. It was
education. I wasn't lobbying, particularly. The
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Chaney: engineers abominated it from the top dean down;
the medical school from the top dean down; agri
culture was opposed to it. We had an awful lot
of votes there. They took care of the English
department, the philosophy department, the eco
nomics theugh it was a big bloc they took care
of those lads who were on the other side.
And of course they didn't like it. And the
graduate students in the English department, I
am told--this is a laugh, because it made no
difference to me--agreed that they would have
no contact, social or otherwise, with me. But
it never mattered. There are still at least two
members of the economics department who don't
speak to me; philosophy.. .well, I guess they all
speak to me, but it doesn't matter; and so on
down the well, those were the three particular
sinners, as I saw them. Political science I
guess was involved with econ.
But I'm not concerned with groups or with
names. I was concerned with being represented
properly, and I wasn't being represented properly.
Also, and this is something I'm going to dis
cuss, the Regents' position was one which was more
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Chaney: OP less handed to it and then abandoned by some
elements of the University, and the Regents were
left holding the sack. And the man with whom I
had my contacts, whom I admire highly In some
ways, was In particular holding the sack. I think
he was in this a very stupid man, but he didn't
know how to roll with the punches. He wasn't
willing to make concessions. I think, with the
advice that I and one or two other people gave
him, if he had been willing to follow it and con
cede a little, that the whole thing could have
been settled. But like the faculty he wasn't
willing to compromise. So I say there were
stupid people, or at least unyielding people,
on both sideso For neither do I have any use.
Well, you can see plainly enough that as a
leader of a so-called, and it was, liberal group
like the Berkeley Municipal League, I was can
celled out from that point on. Most people who
were in that group wouldn't admit I ms a liberal
at all. Maybe I'm not. If being liberal means
loving the Russians, I'm certainly not. I was
on the wrong side for the liberals. I figured
it out and I didn't blunder into this. I knew
very well which side I was on. Maybe it's about
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172
Chaney: the same as picking McCarthy against Bridges.
Which would you take? Let's hope you never
have to take one. But I'fl take McCarthy over
Bridges and I'd take him quick. And I'd take
a Regent over a red-hot econ professor if it
came to a choice like that and I did.
Daniel Was there something about this whole oath con
troversy that was of use either to the faculty
or to the Regents or perhaps to both groups?
Chaney: No. I think it was a complete mess. Every
thing about it was disgusting. All I did was
to reiterate what most of us thought all the
time. The objectors got their pay, to be sure.
Some of the Regents were discredited. I can't
see any dividends in it at all. There weren't
for me and I don't know anybody a high official
of the University with whom I was discussing
this in his office Just after it happened said
to me very sadly, apropos my statement that I
certainly got ray fingers burned, said, "All of
us who had anything to do with it made serious
mistakes." It was a remark of a saddened man
who took an awful beating, too. I didn't take
a beating, much of a beating, because I didn't
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Chaney: amount to much. But if I had been a high Univer
sity official I would have.
incidentally, most of the left-wingers kept
quiet. The men who were most active weren't
what I would call left-wingers. They were just
moderate, or off-a-little-to-the-left liberals,
some a little muddle headed, perhaps. There was
only one of the group that I suspect of being a
bit subversive about it, and that's only a sus
picion and it doesn't matter.
There wasn't any disloyalty in it, but there
certainly were differences of opinion. The ob
jectors objected for all varieties of reasons.
They were the most muddleheaded and incoherent
group, I've been told by a man who had a great
deal to do with them, and who didn't agree with
me on this. I have many friends who didn't
agree with me who are still my close friends, in
cidentally. But I lost a good many friends, or
at least I don't have close associations with
most of the groups I mentioned whereas I had
previously. But heaven knows I have enough
left.
These things don't do any good though, and
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Daniel;
Chaney;
so I say we all lost. No, there was no residuum
of benefit that I could see anywhere.
Persons who are in academic life seldom have a
straight-out confrontation with an opposing point
of view that asserts itself strongly.
Yes, but professionally we have difference of
opinion. It isn't necessarily on the campus,
but I have differences of opinion with other
paleobotanists. I've never had a violent one,
but there are violent ones. We live a reason
ably cloistered life and this was a bit hard,
Of course, a lot of the boys with their war
chests and so on were way beyond their depth.
They dramatized themselves ridiculously. It
was the first time they had been anywhere near
the big time, I suppose, and were getting in the
newspapers, and it was wonderful stuff.
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XII. NON- ACADEMIC STUDENT RELATIONS
The California Club
Daniel
Chaney ;
Danie 1 :
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Was the California Club President Sproul's inven
tion? In 1936 he set forth Its role In the main
tenance of harmonious relations among University
of California student bodies,
I think it was a wonderful idea and I haven't a
doubt, knowing him well, that President Sproul
was fully responsible for the idea. It's the
sort of thing he's particularly good at.
Anyway, he developed It and it has been use
ful In relieving tension between the campuses,
particularly UCLA and the University of Califor
nia at Berkeley,
Was UC-UCLA the reason the thing was started?
There's no doubt about it.
Other campuses have developed
Originally we had only Davis, Medical School,
UCLA, and Berkeley. Then we added Santa Barbara,
and that was all that were ever around when I was
in it. Do you have the dates when I was involved?
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Daniel: December 18, 19Ml-> you became faculty advisor.
You resigned in 19^8 as the faculty sponsor in
Berkeley. You must have had an association from
191*2.
Chaney: I was the faculty member in charge from 19^ or
whenever it was until about 1914-8.
Daniel: Weere you the first?
Chaney: No. No, there had been several. I can remem
ber Desmond was one for a very short time. I
can't tell you who the others were.
Daniel: Did students develop this group? What did the
California Club do?
Chaney: Outstanding students, it could have been twenty
or more, were selected every year by the club
and the faculty member. The students' names
were turned in to the president, who sometimes
added or subtracted, or asked consideration of
others. His suggestions were almost always very
good. Members were sent to an annual meeting at
Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, or Davis, and we en
tertained students from the other campuses. There
were parties that everyone enjoyed. During the
war, when I went in, the social activities were
very much restricted; and there were almost no
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177
Chaney: student activities.
California Club was one of the very vigorous
centers. All of the student leaders were in it,
are still, no doubt. There were various privi
leges which were very welcome, especially to the
boys. And of course, they had an opportunity to
meet President Sproul; he personally welcomed
everybody in. He did a wonderful job and made
everybody feel the importance of the club. He
gave his usual inspirational talks on the sub
ject of University unity through students. I
enjoyed it very much.
Student Government at the University of California
Daniel: Who was on the Executive Committee of the ASTJC when
you were a rrember from the fall of 1914-8 through
the spring of 1951?
Chaney: Dean Eurford Stone was the president's representa
tive throughout. I was classified, and there
were others who have been since, as a faculty rep
resentative, but the term is not altogether ac
curate. The request to represent the faculty came
from President Sproul. The faculty never checked
up on me. I never made a report to the faculty.
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178
Chaney: ard I've never known whether that's the way It was
supposed to be. Sproul had two representatives,
and that was just about right. Being a member of
the faculty I naturally knew something of the
faculty's point of view, but also I made it a
point to know the president's point of view.
And it may be added I had my own point of view
but it usually coincided with the president's In
matters of that sort.
Daniel: Then the Academic Senate didn't take any particu
lar cognizance of the fact that there was a facul
ty member on the Ex Committee?
Chaney: I don't remember ever having any official contact
with the Academic Senate on this. I don't remem
ber being asked a question about it. I'm sure I
wasn't appointed by the Committee on Committees.
I haven't looked at the file of fifteen years
ago but I'm perfectly sure my appointment came
from President Sproul and that I received a let
ter from him when I finished thanking me for
what I did.
There were several alumni representatives
and they were not always very good. I think I
won't go into that.
Daniel: Who were they at the time?
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179
Chaney: I sort of hate to put this into the record, my
opinion, I mean, I think they almost always
voted right. Being younger, they were a little
more inclined to bait students*
Daniel: What were the alumni interests at that time?
Chaney: Oh, nothing in particular. They just went along
with the idea that students should have some
voice in the handling of their affairs, ath
letics, activities of various sorts including
elections, the store, dramatics; all of that is
handled with supervision by the director of acti
vities and the director of athletics. Eventu
ally the director of athletics was the more im
portant one in terms of money because football
pays the bills,
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Daniel: At that time how were athletic affairs handled?
Was there a paid executive?
Chaney: Yes. Ed Welch was the director of the ASTIC, top
man,
Daniel: Do you remember how he was chosen? Did the stu-
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dents have a voice in choosing him?
Chaney: It's a strange thing that I can't say, but ha
certainly cams in on a wave of protest from the
alumni about how things were going. He was a
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180
Chaney: very popular and a very capable man, I don't
even remember his predecessor. During the war
things didn't work out particularly well because
many of the men who had been leaders were given
other assignments. Kenneth Priestley of whom
you may have heard, he's no longer living, got
an assignment in the Radiation Laboratory, and
the men who handled the job weren't always quite
up to it. It was a very complex situation with
out much income because there was no large ath
letic program. That was just before my day.
I don't remember any major Issues. I remem
ber minor issues, and it seems to me that is
about all that were ever discussed, and that
those are the sorts of issues that should be dis
cussed. This is a rather cynical remark, per
haps, but I don't think members of the student
body have much basis for policy-making on major
affairs.
Daniel: What were the major affairs of the ASUC Ex Com
mittee?
Chaney: The football coach and other coaches were hired
and fired by the Associated Students. That pre
rogative was summarily taken from the students
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181
Chaney: by President Sproul, quite wisely, and given to
a Board of Athletic Control. These names may be
inaccurate but that's essentially what it was,
This board was composed of perhaps four students,
four alumni, and four faculty members. I was
never a member of it. That committee, then, with
a majority of non-students made the decisions.
There had been some very bad handling. Some
coaches had been fired in an unfortunate way.
The president was fed up with it, quite naturally.
He was able to do these things and carry a major
ity of ttie student body with him. He's a very
astute man.
Whether Kerr will be able to do that I have
no Idea. He hasn't as yet come up against such
a problem probably. He's very clever also. He's
a professional negotiator, maybe even better, but
time will tell.
Daniel: Did the Board of Athletic Control carry out the
steps for engaging athletic coaches?
Chaney: Yes. The ASTJC athletic manager, who was appointed
by the Associated Students, was always consulted.
He was a key man but on his own. He couldn't go
out and hire, nor could he fire.
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182
Daniel: His job was to interpret the work of the athletic
control board?
Chaney : Yes, and he was depending upon his strength and
the board's weakness. He was an important man,
but I don't think the board was ever weakened,
nor do I think any of the athletic managers were
unduly strong.
Daniel: Were the students inclined to want more authority
at that time?
Chaney: Just after the war we were in a mood to go into
reveries about the heroic Russians, perhaps quite
properly, but we don't do that anymore, anyway.
Being pro-Russian was almost patriotic, as you
know. They were our allies. We were helping
them and they were helping us, or so we thought.
Being pro-Russian in the second half off the
forties carried no stigma whatever. I suppose
it began to get bad around 19^8. But for a time
students who were, mind you, not pro-Russian,
but who were left-wing, very liberal, got just
about what they wanted. Everyone was in sympathy.
A lot of these boys who had been through the war.
Some of the men who were elected had been heroes.
Then of course came the reaction with our
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183
Chaney: disillusionment, when we realized that Stalin had
been too smart for Roosevelt and Churchill, and
with that the lines of conflict were drawn.
Actually I was away. I went to China in 19^8.
I had a sabbatical and was away most of the year.
I think the president now has a wise policy of
not permitting a faculty representative to go
on as long as I did. My guess is I may have had
six years. I think there's a four-year period
now which is far better. Students get awfully
fed up with a faculty member who's been around
too long, and heaven knows he gets fed up with
going to an Ex Committee meeting once a week and
talking largely about trivia,
Daniel: We were talking about the president's administra
tive arrangement for the control of athletics.
Did any of the students on the Ex Committee re
sent it?
Chaney: Actually, this Board of Athletic Control was set
up before I was a member of the Ex Committee. I
suspect it was set up around 19lj-6.
Daniel: While you were on the board the students weren't
annoyed by this arrangement?
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Chaney: No, I don't remember that as a point of conflict.
The points of conflict were largely on social
and political matters that went outside the campus,
Daniel: Did the relationship of the student to political
activity outside the campus ever come up as a
problem that touched the Ex Committee.
Chaney : Ye s .
Daniel: I think you mentioned something about the make-up
of the student paper.
Chaney: That was always a difficulty.
Daniel: What was the problem?
Chaney: The editor was appointed by the Ex Committee, or
at least confirmed by the Ex Committee. I think
he was selected by the Daily Gal group, but al
ways confirmed, and Ex Committee at that time had
the right to remove him. And that was a matter
of resentment. The Sally Gal was always somewhat
more liberal than the Ex Committee. The presi
dent had some occasion to discuss with Stone and
with me, never together, the mistakes that the
students made in writing unfavorable editorials
about regents, or about a benefactor of the Uni
versity, for example. It just wasn't smart.
Daniel: How was that handled?
Chaney: How was the curbing of the Daily Gal handled?
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185
Daniel: Yes. Supposing an editorial appeared that was
embarassing to the president of the University.
What happened then?
Chaney: He spoke to Stone probably on more than one oc
casion. He mentioned t to me or asked Stone to
discuss it with me. Stone was his contact man.
Of course Stone was then in administration. I
was not.
Daniel: What did you do then?
Chaney: We certainly held discussion with members of Ex
Committee whom we had reason to believe did not
approve of such editorials. We debated and dis
cussed ways and means of curbing them. One of
them was to set up--this was done after I left
Ex Committee to set up a control board on pub
lications. This has been called a muzzling and
a loss of our freedom of the press, and so on.
Freedom of the press is all very well, and
we talk about it and desire it, but freedom of
students to run a monopoly newspaper. . Remem
ber, there is no competition to the Daily Gal.
It's a monopoly. To run a monopoly newspaper
without some guidance from the administration
is likely to lead to a good deal of trouble.
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186
Chaney: Somebody would come in with a motion to write
commendatory letters on the faculty's opinion on
the loyalty oath to all of the schools and all of
the newspapers; or some political upset would
take place and a dictator would assume the throne
or perhaps be driven out. The Ex Committee was
all for writing a letter to the new liberal
leader. Now, the paper might run an editorial-
Daniel: Opposing this?
Chaney: And it certainly did. I remember vaguely the
pro-Spanish, I suppose anti-loyalists far back
in the late thirties. You can imagine the stu
dents would take the liberal side. Probably I
would have, too, in that. That was a pretty
hard one to pick the winner on though. It was
the sort of thing that would have led it was
propaganda and it was a representative body of
the University of California which was issuing
these statements, but it wasn't a body author
ized to make such statements. And it was at
that point that I'm sure the administration felt
embarassment , and it was at that point that we
always tried to, well, I think we always were suc
cessful in voting down any such grandstand play.
I mentioned before and I'll say again for
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Chaney: this record that occasionally these requests to
endorse or condemn a public figure in other parts
of the world came up simultaneously in the ex
committees in several parts of the state, which
led me to surmise, although I've never had any
direct proof, that an organization was concerned
with expressing this point of view, an organiza
tion that reached members of all of the ex com
mittees of the several schools involved.
Daniel: Is it possible that certain kinds of activity
have dramatic appeal to young people?
Chaney: I think young people should be interested in
world affairs, in national affairs, and in Uni
versity affairs. But I was never convinced as
I sat on Ex Committee that they were competent
to go beyond University affairs. That's what I
meant a while ago when I said we handled trivia.
A bitter debate would come up whether wives
of ASUC members should have cut-rate rooters'
tickets to go to UCLA. The members did. They
got in for !$< instead of $35>0 or whatever the
scale was, but the wives didn't. So there would
be a debate for an hour on whether the wives
should go along and have cut-rate. Well, it's
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188
Chaney: rather important to the boys with wives, who
wanted to take their wives along, but the men
who were talking for it were mostly unmarried.
And at one point in the debate I interjected
the remark; it seemed to me that if Justice were
to be done we should allow these married men one
weekend a year without their wives a rather ri
diculous and perhaps disrespectful remark, and
it wasn't any profound conviction on my part,
but the whole thing was getting rather tiresome,
and I was getting sick of it. That brought the
matter to a vote shortly thereafter and the wives
were not allowed the ticket privilege, not by my
persuasion, of course. There never was any pos
sibility of it.
The boys and girls in Ex Committee I also
knew in California Club. Almost all of them were
members, or if they were juniors, they were about
to be. The seniors were almost invariably mem
bers. Long before I finished on Ex Committee I
had been through with Cal Club, but they over
lapped,, And I knew some of them quite intim
ately to begin with, not always with the same
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189
Chaney: point of view, but I had known them. I had known
student leaders since the eary Forties, actually
for a couple of decades before that, but espe
cially around 191^2, I guess. Matters of this
sort had meant comparatively little to me, at
least I thought very little about them. That's
why I was so nonplussed when you asked me what
some of the issues were. I can't think of any
but trivia, and not many of them.
Daniel: Were there deficits in the athletic program when
you sat on the Ex Committee?
Chaney: We were in a rather prosperous period financially.
Those were the good days. I was sitting on the
Finance Committee, which the faculty representa
tive and the president's representative always
did, along with the graduate manager and the
president and the vice-president, and perhaps
one other student representative. Also the
University business manager, Bill Norton, sat
on it . I suspect the grown-ups had the major
ity, probably a four to three majority that
wasn't an accident in making policy decisions
on funds and budget allocations.
But things were going very well. There were
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190
Chaney: no deficits, though before I got out there were
threats of deficits. I think bookkeeping can
keep deficits off the books for a while, as you
know,
Daniel: I'm told that for the last ten years there has
been a deficit in the athletic program.
Chaney: That would take it to 19l|9 and that would take
it into the days of my membership in Ex Commit
tee, and probably there were deficits. I seem
to remember so. But they weren't especially seri
ous.
Of course if the administration were budget
ing the athletic program it could cut out crew
and a lot of minor sports which are expensive,
and there wouldn't be a deficit. You can be
sure that the University business manager would
do exactly that. They'd run no deficit athletic
program.
Well, I think the students have a pretty fair
point there: if the University is really running
athletics it should take the responsibilities.
But students wouldn't like the decisions that
would be made to curtail some aspects of the pro-
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191
Chaney: The Dally Gal may not pay its way. Maybe -we'd only
have two Daily Gals a week. I have no idea what
the results would be, but I can assure you that if
the University business manager had autonomy there 'd
be no deficit. There couldn't be.
Daniel: Were there any complaints about the service of the
student store when you were on Ex Committee?
Chaney : Yes, and I think there were shifts in the top men
from time to time. There unquestionably was in
efficiency in the store and elsewhere. No one
thinks that everyone is efficient. Running the
student store is very difficult,
Daniel: What are the chief problems?
Chaney: One of their very great problems was that employees
stole books.
Daniel: That was a large problem really?
Chaney: Well, tens of thousands of dollars a year. The em
ployees stole books and sold them to their friends
at cut-rate.
Daniel: This was criminal action.
Chaney: It was.
Daniel: Was this handled as criminal action.
Chaney: It was discussed never quite as bluntly as I have
stated it, but I had what I considered the facts.
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Chaney: One or two students were caught and fired or per
haps dropped from the University. The details of
that I can't remember other than that safeguards
were put on to prevent it. I can't even remember
the safeguards.
Daniel: They worked?
Chaney: I doubt it. Incidentally I saw today or yesterday
the story about stealing, but that was shoplift
ing. But I'm talking about stealing by tempor
ary employees, students who worked for ten or
twenty hours a week
Daniel: Who would walk out with the stock and sell it.
Chaney: Yes, or who would turn it over to friends who came
in and not ring up the sale. That was one of the
things that was brought out. Whether all that was
brought out in open committee I don't know. We
used to have executive sessions when all salaries
were discussed, and when this touchy sort of thing
was discussed. It's a long while ago. I remem
ber only the bare facts. It was established to my
satisfaction that the store was losing because of
stock depletion of that sort. Of course they
were stealing candy bars, taking up little things
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and walking out with them. That will always be
a problem, I suppose, perhaps not a very large one.
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Chaney: The story In today's Daily Gal indicated
that
Daniel: Well, a $20,000 loss in a year is a considerable
loss. I think that was the figure that was quo
ted in the paper today.
Chaney: I would say that the losses from theft by employ
ees were estimated as being higher than that, but
it's been so long ago that I can't remember.
Daniel: In any case, it was as difficult to run a student
store as it is now.
What else about the store?
Chaney: Oh, we'd have a discussion of the Bear's Lair,
which was the restaurant, the fact that the price
of hamburgers was going up from 10^ to l5tf. I
suppose it's 30^ now, but it was at about that
level in those days. The reason for it was that
beef cost more and help cost more. This was a pro
test of inflation which we always protest whenever
we feel the bite of it.
Nobody is ever satisfied with the student
store. I think it's a thankless job. I can't
imagine anyone wanting to do it,
Daniel* Now it ' s a self-service arrangement which I think
has changed matters.
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Chaney: A gate was put on the book counters so that unless
a student actually had a book under his clothing
it could be seen. Even that might not have kept
the employees from removing books. Suppose the
gatekeeper was a thief. I know the present gate
keeper and she certainly is not. I know one of
them. B ut if the gatekeeper was a thief that would
be a good place to start things, wouldn't it?
Daniel: Yes, 1 suppose so.
The students did not have much to say about
athletics, but they did have something to say
about the store,
Chaney: Oh yes. They had a good deal to say about ath
letics, about giving raises to coaches.
Daniel: Did they make decisions like that?
Chaney: Oh, they suggested it, yes. They certainly did.
And they went much too far sometimes and the Pi-
nance Committee had to curb them,, They dldn(t
have the final say.
Daniel: You had a controlling vote of adults on the Pi-
nance Committee?
Chaney: Yes, in effect it was. Matters of that sort fre
quently were handled outside.
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You can see why over the years there has bean
student resentment towards adult administration
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Chaney: numbers of the Ex Committee. They were the vil
lains in this skit. If they'd been $ust students
they'd have
Daniel: Well, they needn't be villains.
Chaney: They are villains from the students' standpoint;
they aren't villains in fact. They are presum
ably sensible people who know how many dollars
we have and how we have to spend them.
Daniel: If the students are given an accurate picture of
the possibilities inherent in a situation they're
not stupid people, they could see what the possi
bilities are.
Chaney: Ordinarily it was quite possible to persuade a
majority of the students. In fact, we never had,
while I was on Ex Committee, a majority which was
consistently anti-administration. Occasionally
there would be something voted through that was
against administration policy, and by administra
tion I mean largely Sproul, who was a strong man
and who was usually right about such things. Prob
ably always right, as I would view it.
But only occasionally was there a vote that
would violate his wishes. I can't speak from
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Cba ney :
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney :
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
memory on this but I have an idea that maybe it
was changed afterward by another vote. Certain
ly nothing important ever happened that was
against his policies.
What besides the store and student athletics
claimed the Ex Committee's attention?
Elections, Judiciary Committee, Student Welfare
Committee--
What about the Student Welfare Committee? Was
that important? What did it do?
It was quite important. It watched out for "fair
Bear" wages and for racial discrimination. All
these are subjects that would be of great inter
est to students, and properly so. Housing,
How could the students take any action in the
field of housing?
They couldn't, but they could vote resolutions.
About what ?
Probably what they did was to address communica
tions to the president pointing out what he al
ready knew, but emphasizing the fact that they
didn't like it if there were racial discrimina
tion, or if conditions were unsanitary or danger
ous.
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Daniel: Did they try to establish any standard for accep
table housing facilities?
Chaney: No, I don't think they ever got that far. The
University has its ovin standards, and I'm sure
no student ever got into the technical side of
housing.
Daniel: There was no "Pair Bear" stamp of approval on a
house, let's say.
Chaney: No, I'm sure there was not. Students were less
interested in housing than they were in wages
and in racial discrimination of various sorts.
Daniel: The students' housing at that time was probably
poorer than it is now.
Chaney: There weren't as many dormitories. Yes, there
were all sorts of houses.
Daniel: Wasn't better housing a pressing need for the stu
dents?
Chaney: Very. But to my knowledge students never got to
the root of that, to urge the Regents to support
housing. For years the Regents were unwilling to
do so. Whether or not that was sound at the time
I have no idea. They were surely opposed to it
and now they have accepted this as one of the
University's responsibilities. I doubt if stu
dents had anything to do with that change of heart.
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198
Daniel: What do you see as the effective role of student
government? As you saw it working, do you think
it was a valuable experience to the students who
were on the Ex Committee?
Chaney: Oh very. They handled their affairs. They de
termined the dates when various parties could be
held, and the budget which the junior class could
have for its Junior prom. Actually, I think I'm
wrong about that. I think the junior class de
termined its budget from its class funds. But
there was frequently an ASUC subsidy.
And there were many other types of Univer
sity affairs, the Glee Club or whatever, in which
the ASUC set aside $10 or $100 or even a substan
tial amount on occasion. Whether the band would
go to Seattle for a football game. These were
matters that had to be referred to the Finance
Committee, of course, and the Finance Committee
didn't always say no by any means. Whether the
tennis team should be sent to an eastern tourna
ment in view of its record. If its record was
poor the students would usually vote not to send
it.
Actually, the tennis coach would make the
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Chaney: recommendation In a case like that. But I'm quite
sure he didn't always get what he wanted, or at
least he didn't get as much as he wanted.
Here's another. There are national and in
ternational student organizations that held meet
ings, sometimes even in Europe, and funds had to
be set aside for delegates to attend those meet
ings. Affiliation with those organizations was
discussed. Some of them were left-wing. That
was brought out and the left-wing element of Ex
Committee would be all for continuing. The right-
wing element would be all for breaking with it.
Daniel: Since right-wing and left-wing character is tics
change over a period of time, what were the char
acteristics of the right wing of the Ex Committee
and what were the characteristics of the left
wing of the Ex Committee?
Chaney: I think the left wing wanted to spend the money
whether we had it or not, and the right wing was
more likely to look at the balance and see. The
right wing was certainly not interested in memor
ializing the legislature of a foreign country
about some of its acts or the acts of its execu
tives. The left wing was likely to be interested,
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Chaney: especially If it were something that was on the
left side, as it usually was when such things
were brought up.
Now these lines are rather easily drawn.
Daniel: Would the left wing be more critical of the ad
ministration than the right wing, do you think?
Chaney: Very much more.
Daniel: Was the left wing for expanded student services
in the store, or didn't it care?
Chaney: I suppose it was but I don't remember, I do re
member that there were always some students who
were against the present management,
Daniel: Are there any other activities
Chaney: I mentioned the scheduling of parties. Sometimes
there would be conflicts. Two important organiza
tions would want a party on the same night, pos
sibly even in the same place. All these things
had to be resolved. They were handled first by
it may have been the Student Affairs Committee
I've forgotten. And almost always members of
these committees included not only elected Execu
tive Committee members but others who were drawn
in. And then some of those people were elected,
when they got to be seniors, to Ex Committee if
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Chaney: they did well politically. The committees were
a training ground for the Executive Committee.
There was always something like that and I
said a while ago, not respectfully, that they
were trivia. No one really cares whether a
student club has its initiation on the 13th or
20th of December. But we might care a good deal,
it might affect all of us to some extent, at
least, if we had written letters from an official
University group praising Stalin or condemning
de Gaulle, or whatever it might have been. That
sort of thing may bring lasting harm because it
gives a certain character to the University. I
don't think the University should have the repu
tation of being a group of stalwart conservatives,
mostly Republicans. But I certainly dbn't think
that it should have the reputation for being lib
eral in the extreme sense, left-wing is what I
mean. That would not be pleasing to our state
assembly.
Incidentally, occasionally our students would
go up and visit the legislature. I don't think we
ever invited legislators down here but students
would go up and visit the legislature in Sacra-
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Chaney: mento and talk to them to show that they were sen
sible and not a group of irresponsible redhots.
Daniel: Then you feel that the University as a tax-suppor
ted university has a different background for the
students than a non-tax-supported university?
Chaney: Oh, of oourse. The taxpayer determines whether
we continue.
Daniel: In a way then, the faculty representatives are
sort of watchdogs for the administration, to avoid
embarassing situations.
Chaney: Yes. That's why students, for several years, have
been arguing vigorously against it. They've
brought up motions In Ex Committee imagine I to
legislate against having such appointments. Well,
they can't do it because the president in all
cases makes the final decision and he has appoin-
te d them.
I have to summarize this general feeling that
there was always a majority of the student members
of Ex Committee who were in favor of most adminis
tration policies. There was always a majority
which acted wisely in strictly student affairs
having to do with time and place and the alloca
tion of minor amounts of money. There was always
a small group which disagreed, quite vocal, often
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203
Chare y: of minority races, some of whom may have been dis
loyal, but all of whom were, by their behavior,
to be character ized as left-wing, but always a
minority In my day The vote was never close.
But the reason why it wasn't was that the three
adults almost always voted against that group.
In other words, a student who thinks that
adults should be removed is quite right if the
thesis is sound that the students should have
complete control. The results might be quite
different with students only.
Daniel: Were the students voted into student government
office on their personality or were they voted
into office because of their ideas on student
government ?
Chaney: Certainly both. The high officers of the Associ
ated Students always had held various posts. They
had been class officers, they'd been members of
various committees. Being the chairman of a home
coming committee is a tremendous job. It takes a
boy maybe 100 or 200 hours. It's a great respon
sibility. A boy who does that well is likely to
receive some recognition. Perhaps he'll run for
representative-at-large en Ex Committee and be
elected. He'll always mention his committee
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Chare y:
Daniel:
Chaney:
Daniel:
Chaney:
appointments and attainments. Then if he is vo
cal and well thought of he may run for president
of the ASUC.
It was identification with his student record
which put him into office.
Athletes were encouraged by Waldorf to run
for office. I always thought that was a good
thing, except that athletes during their season
of participation were rather tired and very busy
and often away on trips, so their attendance rec
ord wasn't good. W e had a number of top-flight
athletes on Ex Committee and in California Club
during my contacts with these organizations. And
it was always a good idea to have them. In gene
ral, they are too busy to be as effective as some
one who has the Executive Committee for his major
activity.
*
Has it ever occurred to anybody that the students
in outside activities in these student offices
put an immense amount of time into what they do?
Yes, and they generally have to put in another
semester to get in their units because they take
a minimum load, twelve units.
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Daniel: They do reduce the number of units they take?
Chaney : Oh, the smart ones do. I used to advise them to.
And a great many members of Ex Committee flunked
out and weren't back next semester. Maybe they
couldn't take it.
Daniel: Do you know if this generally occurs?
Chaney: I don't know about generally, but it happened
while I was there. The weaker students flunked
out, and almost all of them were on a reduced
schedule, a minimum schedule. They should be.
There is a small stipend for certain of the
officers. There is none for representatives-at-
large. The president and the editor of the Daily
Cal and the business manager of the Daily Gal, or
he may be called the advertising manager, all of
those were salaried positions, or stipend posi
tions. The amount was perhaps $5>00 for a year
That was justified fully on the basis that they
spent an enormous amount of time, and had no qp-
portunity to work and earn money. I think there
was never any question about that. There was of
ten a wish to increase the amount.
But the details of all this are pretty lar-
gely gone. My feeling is that most of the matters
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206
Chaney: discussed for hours were on a rather low level of
importance. And often, perhaps, just for the fun
of arguing. There was a lot of that* Our spirit
was almost always good. There were rarely quar
rels which weren't healed by the end of the meet
ing.
You asked a while ago about the cliques In
elections. Some fraternities and sororities would
often get together for a candidate. I wouldn't
say that it was fraternities against non-frater
nities because the non- fraternities would always
have won, on the basis of the quantity of the
vote, but there were usually organization and
non-organization candidates.
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XIII. THE CONSERVATIONIST
Daniel: When did your conservation activities, as such,
begin to take shape?
Chaney : I was raised in a rural community on the out
skirts of Chicago and during the time I lived
there it became rather thickly settled. The na
tural conditions were gradually destroyed. How
aware I was of that I don't know. But when I
came to California to live in 1922 I went up the
Redwood Highway and there I saw the results of
over-cutting redwood forests on a wide scale.
At the same time I saw forests which had not
been damaged, the finest forests I have ever seen
or have seen since. So I immediately had the im
pact of over-cutting in the redwood area. The
opinions and guidance of John C, Merriam direc
ted me towards conservation. He was one of the
founders of the Save-The -Redwoods-league, and one
of the three men who had first recognized the im
portance of a conservation organization to save
the redwoods.
Gradually, through Dr. Merriam, I became more
and more related to the Save-The -Redwoods-League
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208
Chaney: activities, first as a counselor, presumably in
the late twenties. At that time I had been doing
a great deal of speaking for a bond issue in the
1928 election, a ten million dollar bond issue
which was to provide money to permit the purchase,
with equal amounts from private funds, of Bull
Creek Plat and other much needed areas such as
Oak Knoll and the Rockefeller redwood grove.
Natural A reas
Chaney: At the same time there were other state park pro
jects. The Save -The -Redwoods -League was Inter
ested in Point Lobos. Ray Lyman Wilbur was chair
man of the Point Lobos advisory committee of which
I was a member with Joseph Grinnell,a famous zool
ogist. Between us we got across the idea that
Point Lobos should be kept in as natural a state
as possible. It had been under private ownership
for years. Part of it had been intensively used
by fishermen and picnickers.
Arguments were advanced to support its re
turn to a natural state. It was pointed out that
if a tree falls down in such a place Its trunk
should be allowed to lie there and rot as a part
of the environment, providing food for various
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209
Dan ie 1 :
Chaney: micro-organisms and insects, which in turn pro
vide food for other insects and for birds. The
idea of natural reserves is becoming much more
widespread. I recently saw a statement about a
similar park in Illinois. They develop the same
ideas.
I was getting lessons in conservation from
men like Merriam
I think it worthwhile to spend a little more time
on this concept of a natural area. You're think
ing of a place which is entirely undisturbed.
Chaney: Undisturbed, Insofar as such a thing is possible,
by human act iv ties or the imbalances that result
therefrom. For example, no one knows about the
carnivores of the Point Lobos area it's named
for a wolf whether there was ever a wolf there
I have no means of knowing, and it doesn't matter.
But if there were carnivores there, bobcats, moun
tain lions, as there occasionally must have been,
there are probably some bobcats there still. They
have been largely destroyed by human neighbors.
That imbalance means that some other types of life
become more common as a result of not being kept
under control. Rodents, for example, and perhaps
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210
Chaney: the micro-organisms that affect rodents thereby
be corns more common. w e nave something of the sort
going on in the state today,
Daniel: Well, would you say there is a general movement to
preserve certain areas throughout the country in
this undisturbed condition?
Chaney: Yes, It's unpopular because people want to use
these areas for picnicking. The reaction is that
the state has contributed their tax money for the
purchase of these areas, and therefore ttiey should
be allowed to enjoy them.
There are conflicting factors involved in
the National Park Service and in the Forest Ser
vice, The latter Is more or less a business or
ganization, It's in the business of selling lum
ber, selling grazing rights, and it also regulates
and regularly permits camping.
The National Park Service has nothing to sell,
One of its main purposes is the preservation of
natural areas on a national scale.
The taxpayer Is likely to be very restive if
he can't camp in a national park. He points out
that the Forest Service for which he pays taxes
permits him to do so. Why doesn't the National
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Park Service? There is no inconsistency involved.
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211
Chaney: The Forest Service is, in effect, a management
agency. The National Park Service is a conserving
and esthetic agency.
Daniel: It's a matter of public education, isn't it?
Chansy: Yes. We've run into a good deal of criticism in
the redwood parks for not permitting people to
camp wherever they pleased. There are hazards,
very serious hazards in connection with falling
limbs. People would be killed in considerable
numbers if they were allowed to camp regularly
under redwoods because a redwood branch falling
a hundred feet is really lethal. *t isn't a safe
place. I've camped under redwoods. I don't think
I ever want to again. If I did, and other people
came to that same place, there would be destruc
tion of the root system of the redwoods nearby.
The roots come very close to the surface. Even
walking around on them involves some destruction,
and putting large numbers of people through, as
has been the case at Big Basin has resulted in
the loss of a number of trees; also in Humboldt
and in the groves to the north.
Big Basin has been near a metropolitan area
and has had a longer period as a state park than
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212
Chaney: most of the state redwood parks to the north.
There has been a need for getting over to people
the Idea that some limited areas should be kept
in their natural state. I think that the Save-
The -Redwoods -League and its policies are on sound
ground. For many years I have been working on
the committee having to do with the esthetic val
ues and educational aspects of the state redwood
parks. On occasion I have gone to Sacramento to
act as a witness at hearings where laws came up
which threatened what we consider to be the best
use of the Redwood and other parks-
Daniel: This has been an effective organization, you
think?
Chaney: Well, yes. It is a model for conservation organi
zations the world over. It has been very success
ful financially. It had the direction of the
Drury brothers; at first Newton, and then after
wards he went to become director of the National
Park Service around 19ij-0, a little later, per
haps; then his brother Aubrey. There has been a
series of outstanding men: James T. Grant, John
C. Merriam, Duncan McDuffie, and Arthur Connick.
I'm sure I've missed one or two of the presidents.
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213
Chaney
Dan ie 1
Chaney
Among the directors have been William Colby, Prank
Wentviorth, and Walter Starr. Most of these men
have also been Involved with the Sierra Club and
similar organizations.
Walter Starr is an outstanding man he's in
his middle eighties now. He's still very active
as a director of the Save-The -Redwoods-League .
In due time, I've forgotten just when it was,
late Thirties perhaps or early Forties, I was
asked to be a director, a member of the board of
seven directors, and have been a director ever
since.
Did this limit your activity at the educational
le vel ?
Oh, no. It's in addition. The directors mainly
have to do with policy and with determining how
funds are to be expended.
Arthur Connick, the present president, was
raised in the redwoods, the Humboldt Redwoods,
and knows a vast amount about values and knows
the be st way to acquire land.
Other members of the board of directors are:
Richard Leonard, a young member, who is a Sierra
Club man and knows a good deal about land use;
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from long experience, and who is presumably one
of the founders, and a former president of the
Sierra Club.
I'm the only college professor in the lot.
The rest of them are for the most part successful
business and professional men. Norman Livermore
was one of the outstanding men who was a director
during the tims that I was.
Well, when Newt Drury went to Washington to
the National Park Service he naturally had vacan
cies on the advisory board, and I should think
about 19lj-3 he suggested to Secretary Ickes that
I be appointed, and I got a letter from the Sec
retary and accepted. I was very much occupied
with other matters at that time.
Daniel: You were then put on the advisory board of the
National Park Service. How many members are there
on tii at advisory board?
Chaney: Eleven, I believe.
Daniel: And they are drawn from what fields? Do you know?
Chaney: They're conservationists.
Daniel: They're all conservationists?
Chaney: Some of them are state park men. Some are univer
sity professors. There is almost always an engi-
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215
Chaney: neer, and a landscape architect. It's a repre
sentative group. Other men were Alfred Knopf and
Bernard DeVoto. They were both members of it
while I was, men who write and publish books on
conservation.
Anyone who has an interest in conservation
and represents a sound point of view is likely to
be asked. I had about ten years of it but actu
ally now they have about five years. Whether
that's a good idea or not I don't know.
Daniel: The term of serving on this board has been re
duced?
Chaney : Apparently it has, but that was just going into
effect when I was leaving and I don't know the
details of it. At any rate I had about ten
years. It was nearer twelve, probably.
Daniel: Do you think you brought something of particular
value because you came from this area or because
of your experience in conservation or because of
a combination of all these influences?
Chaney: I suppose so. Herbert Bolton was a member during
part of the time. It was interesting that there
were two U.C. men.
Daniel: Why was he a member?
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216
Chaney: Because of interests in the historical monument s .
The National Park Service has more historical
monuments than it has national parks. They are
smaller but there are very many of them. Bolton
was an outstanding man in American history and an
extremely valuable one.
The emphasis was on geological, paleological
matters, and park matters. Most of the geological
parks are in the West. I have visited all of them,
some of them many times and have made reports
which I suppose were largely ignored. But gener
ally the recommendations came through.
Daniel: What kind of recommendations did you make that
you think might have been ignored?
Chaney: (Laughter) One of them, around 19i|i|, has just come
to light within the last year, a museum over a
fossil deposit in Utah, Dinosaur National Monument.
I and my group who went there with me developed
the idea that we should put a building over one
of the best fossil localities and then work out
the dinosaurs and leave them _in situ in the rocks
enclosed in that building. That's going on right
now. They've put up the building. It was dedi
cated within the last year.
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21?
Chaney: It wasn't, perhaps, that my recommendation
was Ignored, but that the recommendation in
volved a couple of million dollars and we had
to wait until they got it. I'm sure no one
thought the suggestion was a poor one, but no
matter how good the suggestion one has to wait
for funds.
Daniel: Is Dinosaur National Monument entirely supported
by federal funds?
Chaney: It's largely government. It's Project 66, I be
lieve it's called, a ten-year project which
started in 1956, and is designed to increase the
usefulness of parks by adding roads and museums
and installations of various sorts. The parks
ran down very badly during the war. This pro
gram is going on extremely well under the direc
torship of Director Wirth, who followed Newton
Drury.
Now, one of the things I always had allowed
for was not to interfere with the biota of a park.
Big Bend is the only park that has mountain lions
in it, and unfortunately a mountain lion, out of
curiosity, followed along after some children on
a trail. It didn't molest them but it scared
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218
Chaney: them nearly to death. There was a parent there,
too, I think. It would be a rather frightening
experience. The superintendent of the park was
all for shooting the mountain lions. We immedi
ately stopped that . A suggestion was made by me
or someone else that we should fence in the child
ren.
Daniel: (Laughter) Yes. That seems more practical.
Chaney: After all, that was where the mountain lions lived,
There's no national park elsewhere in the world
where mountain lions may be regularly seen, and
the idea of destroying the mountain lions, well,
It
Daniel: There are other places where vast areas are re
served for animals. This is true in Africa and
everyone accepts the idea there,
Chaney: There are some very difficult situations which
arise in a place like Yellowstone, or even Yose-
mite where there are too many bears, where people
can't be persuaded not to run risks and make close
approaches to them. The whole matter of game man
agement in the national park is difficult because
of hunters. It seems really too bad to kill four
or five thousand elk every year, slaughter them
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219
Chaney and either throw them out or provide government
agencies with the meat if it can be handled that
way.
Mountain range in Yellowstone just can't sup
port all the elk that are born every year and
grow to maturity because the carnivores have been
killed. It's a matter of imbalance which results
from our human interference.
Even the buffalo, the most glamorous animal
in America, perhaps, and the animal which is on
the Department of Interior seal, the buffalo had
been and is in excess in Yellowstone Park, and
yet it's very difficult to apply any sound rules
of game management, any population control, be
cause of the reaction of hunters, who are tax
payers.
It's all a very difficult matter and prob
lems of that sort are the problems the advisory
board had to meet. I and always someone else who
knew more about it than I, plus the employees of
the National Park Service, who were professional
game -management men, worked at the solution of
these problems.
The future of redwood conservation, of the
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220
Chaney : conservation movement In California, is rather
difficult to predict. We don't have all the red
wood acreage that we should have. There's about
60,000 acres, which has a value of, o'fl, four or
five times what has been paid for It. Of course,
everything has gone up, but it represents an ex
tremely successful Investment of public and pri-
va te fund s .
I am emphasizing in all my reports at an
nual meetings the need for inaugurating greater
use of the redwood parks. We bought them. We
have more to buy. But more people go to see
Trees of Mystery, which is a sort of vaudeville
show with corny phonograph records placed here
and there, more people go there and pay fifty
cents, or it may be a dollar now, then are likely
to stop at our educational centers at Richardson
Grove and elsewhere.
Incidentally, that is one of the things that
I have a good deal to do with, getting materials
for the educational centers and discussing with
the ranger naturalists what they should say about
them, not only In the state parks but In the na
tional parks, too.
Crater and Grand Canyon are two parks with
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Chaney: which I've had a great deal to do, in terms of
their ranger naturalist programs.
Daniel: Is the ranger public education activity popular?
Chaney: Yes. It's free service and for many other people
there isn't anything else to do. It's something
like going to church,
Daniel: Most people have questions about the things they
see in the park. They -want answers.
Chaney: I think so too. It's a very healthy sign. Ques
tions are asked, even very simple questions and
there should be people to answer them and ranger
naturalists in general are able to answer the
questions. I'm enthusiastically in favor of it.
I don't believe that nearly all the people that
have contacts with rangers have any serious or
lasting interest, but it's fine just to have a
preliminary contact if nothing more.
Daniel: What about the children?
Chaney: I think that, by and large, the educational pro
gram in the state and national parks is going to
introduce a new kind of people when the children
of today are full-grown and are paying taxes and
voting. I think they'll be much more willing to
support state and national parks and other re-
serves because as you say they had their first
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world was opening up in a delightful way for
them.
Daniel: The National Park Service also handles the ad
ministration of national monuments as well,
Chaney: Yes, and historical monuments.
Daniel: What about Craters of the Moon National Monument?
Chaney: There wasn't much to do there, except to build a
few trails. It's a recent lava field. With the
records that are being kept it's going to be of
great scientific interest as centuries pass to
see what happens to it. There will probably be
some more lava fields in that area. I don't
think that is the last one. It's what we call
a drive-in or drive -through park, rather than a
resort park such as Yosemite and Yellowstone,
Daniel: Tha?e are no camping facilities?
Chaney: It isn't a very suitable place for most people to
camp anyway. I hope camping facilities won't be
developed at the expense of naturalness. Of
course, visitor use means more trails and more
destruction. The Yellowstone Mammoth Hot Springs
area has been almost ruined by visitors. Actu
ally, it's possible the hot water has been shut
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off down below anyway and that it would have
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Chare y: changed without any visitors, but in my own ex
perience during a period of thirty-five years or
more it has gone back very badly,
Daniel: Is the development of the Jackson Hole country
within the framework of the national park system?
Chaney: Part of it is in the national park. At Jackson
Lake there is an arrangement of accommodations
amid scenery of great beauty.
Separating Resort from Park
Chaney: The National Park Service encourages this idea
and has experts who give good advice to conces
sionaires as to how to proceed. It is hoped,
and this is one of the policies that was devel
oped during the time that I was on the advisory
board, that gradually all concessions will be
moved out of the parks, including the Curry es
tablishment in Yosemite. There are some advan
tages of a place like Ahwanee and the Lodge where
beautiful views may be seen. The hotel on the
rim of Crater Lake has one of the most beautiful
views in the world for me.
But I think we shall see in the course of a
few decades all of those buildings removed to
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Chaney : places outside the parks, and the number of build
ings, perhaps even the number of roads, greatly
cut down. There are altogether too many roads.
Now, here's an Interesting aspect of Yosemite
showing you how man interferes. The water which
is taken out of Yosemite Valley, and not only for
park use but more likely from the Merced River
for irrigation, has lowered the water table in
the valley and grasses can no longer compete on
equal terms with trees. As a result the meadows,
which used to characterize the floor of the val
ley, are gradually giving way to forests of oak
and pine and Douglas fir. Now, serious thought
has been given to getting rid of them but it's
almost impossible. The cost of keeping even
with the forests in the floor of the Yosemite
Valley is so great that I doubt any appropri
ation could be made to handle it. At best we
shall have to have a few beauty spots maintained.
Yosemite has been changed by man. It may not
be so simple as that largely by another water
table. Anyway, for someone who conserves trees,
here I am urging that they be chopped down, but
I don't believe in trees where there should be
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Daniel: The char acter is tics of the place have been chan
ged because of the changing circumstances,
Chaney: Just imagine the reception they would get if I
put forth the idea I'm not even saying I favor
it--of abandoning the firefall. If you don't
have a hotel up at Glacier Point you won't have
a firefall and you won't have a hotel at Glacier
Point when the hotels are moved out of the park.
All that's in the future.
Daniel: The firefall is a gimmick and I think It's en
tirely out of place.
Chaney: It's ridiculous, like watching the bears eat
garbage.
Daniel: Probably twenty-five years ago the firefall was
more important than it is now.
Chaney! I shouldn't wonder. The purists feel that a na
tional park is a place where there are special
values. You can dance and go to the movies in
any city, even town: but Yosemite and places
like it have values which can't be had anywhere
else in the world. It isn't possible, to have
people fill out a questionnaire before they're
permitted to go to Yosemite saying what their
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Chaney: to go to a movie. Nonetheless, the conventional
amusements should be controlled. In my opinion,
gradually, as public opinion supports it, they
should be discouraged. I'm quite sure of this in
the case of Yosemite. With people like Mrs.
Tressider and Walter Starr running the conces
sions I'm sure that changes will come in park
accomodat ions.
Don't get the idea that I think the Curry
Company will ever move out during Mary Tressi
der 's lifetime, but some time in the future un
questionably it will, and people like her who
would be landowners will not be averse to seeing
the change, but it will take education.
Daniel: You worked in the Redwood League, and you served
on the National Park Advisory Board . Have you
continued a relationship with the National Park
Service?
Chaney : I'm a consultant. An occasion doesn't arise of
ten when they consult me but I have had status
and I'm still a member of two or three advisory
boards of smaller areas which don't meet very
often. I can't even think which ones they are,
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Chaney: outside of Point Lobos which hasn't met for ten
or fifteen years. It's well in hand, doesn't
need any advice.
Daniel: Have you any other conservation areas which
interested you?
Chaney: Not very much. Most of the local groups that I
have been asked to work with are rather imprac
tical.
Daniel: Do they usually tend to be?
Chaney: The small groups are. They're zealous people but
they don't have sufficient experience.
Daniel: Supposing a citizen sitting somewhere becomes
agitated, perhaps about some changes in park pro
perty. What can he do about it?
Chaney: Fremont ia Park is an example,
Daniel: What can you do as an individual?
Chaney: Probably not much. The move to preserve Fremont ia
Park lost.
Daniel: Why?
Chaney: Oh, it wasn't much of a case either way. The ar
gument that somebody's house shouldn't be taken
away from them is too silly for words. I might
not think so if it was my house. The man would
be reimbursed for it. That was a fairly silly
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Chaney: argument. To say that parks are being taken
away from us involves a statement of principle,
and that would have been a reason for voting
aga ins t it .
I'm sure I voted against the park being
used for a firehouse following my conservation
principles, but it mattered to me so little that
I could have voted either way,
Daniel! Do you think the natural resources in our own
regional parks are being well handled?
Chaney I'm not sure that land is not being sold for
residences that should be kept in the parks. I
hear stories right along which I've never checked.
I hear stories about Tilden Park and related areas,
being sold for housing developments. I don't
know what happens to the money. Obviously it's
public land and public funds. There Is no cor
ruption involved. The worst that can be invol
ved is bad judgment* I don't know to what ex
tent in other words, I haven't informed myself
very fully about it.
These parks have had very little publicity,
probably not enough. Hardly any of us know much
about them.
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Daniel: Do you think there is an increasing awareness about
our natural resources?
Chaney: Oh, the whole emphasis is increasing at a tremendous
rate. No one thought anything about it when I was
a child. I didn't live in California but I know
they didn't from the consequences.
In most parts of the world, over almost all
of Asia, for example, no attention has been paid
to conservation. That's the reason China is in
such a desperate condition. They pray to false
gods, at the present time. China's economics have
been ruined by lack of conservation and other fac
tors.
If China is ever to be a self-supporting and
progressive nation, it will have to build back
its forests and soil and water resources. It
doesn't make any diffference whether it's commun
ists or capitalists doing it, whichever can do it
more effectively. It will have to be done before
Shina can pay its way, to a high standard of liv
ing.
I think that most people in the United States
are coming to realize that conservation is their
business, and is profitable. We have to do it if
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Chaney: we are going to maintain and increase our stand
ard of living. In Europe, too, it's becoming a
widespread idea.
Tree planting and conservation has been done
in Germany for decades and is being done on a very
large scale in Japan. There they have crops, tim
ber crops, just like the wheat crops except it
takes thirty to forty years for a harvest. It
has to be a differently run business, of course,
Cryptonsria, a relative of the redwood, is the
principal tree in J apan, and bamboo.
Daniel: Do you think the Civilian Conservation Corps had
any effect on awakening people's interest in na
ture?
Chaney: Oh, * guess so. There were lots of boys who were
underprivileged, in terms of education, at least,
whb worked in it. They must have developed some
of the senese of the value of conservation. We
were spending money on conservation. This was in
the thirties wasn't it, during unemployment?
Those were the better results of the Roosevelt
administration as I look back on them.
Daniel: More money was spent tidying up the national parks
in that period than had been spent in the past?
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Chaney: Well, it was spent on the C.C.C.
Daniel: And what did the C.C.C. do in conservation?
Chaney: They went into parks and did work. They straight
ened out the creek bed in Muir Woods, for example.
I don't think they did a very good job, but any
way they spent a lot of time and money on it.
They went into public and private lands, mostly
public, and where the program was well thought
out they were constructive. A lot of it was just
a waste of time, of course, as it is with all
government projects, and I suppose all private
projects have a little waste, had judgment. That
is the penalty anywhere, whether it's public or
private.
Daniel: Do you think that there's enough natural area for
nature study?
Chaney: There is now. Of course there in in any large park
area that is natural. Yellowstone Park has some
very unnatural areas, but there are still a lot
of geysers that no one ever goes close to, that
are perfectly natural. They don't have any trees
in the Rockies, any real forests like we have in
the West, so there aren't any forests to worry
about in particular, but they have lots of big
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Chaney: game. That's unnatural in the sense of being too
numerous and of the wrong kinds.
Yellowstone is the least natural of the big
parks. It's the oldest. It's the way they will
all be if we let our human mismanagement continue.
Yellowstone can be saved. But it may not be. The
new concessions are said to be not very attrac
tive, but we don't need to go into that.
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233
XIV. IN THE STREAM OF POLITICAL HISTORY
Daniel: Going from conservation to citizenship, what were
your feelings as a young voter?
Chaney: My political bias was that of most northern res
pectable people. I was born in a Republican fa
mily. My father in 1912 was a Bull iVl ooser and I
voted for Theodore Roosevelt. I voted for Wilson
in 1916. Wilson was elected in 1912, wasn't he?
Well, I must have voted for him only once then.
Then we came to Harding in 1920, and whoever
it was in 1921}.. Neither of them looked good to
me.
Daniel: We can go on from the Wilsonian period. What
was your first voting experience?
Chaney: For Teddy Roosevelt in 1912.
Daniel: Why were you attracted to Roosevelt?
Chaney: I had very little political experience. * voted
the way my father did, I suppose. That's the
only reason I can think of.
Daniel: The pull of Roosevelt's personality at that time
wasn't something that commanded your attention?
Chaney": I suppose he interested me but I can't remember.
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Chaney: I can remember merely that my father was a very
enthusiastic Bull Mooser. By the time Wilson
ran in 1916 I was getting interested in what was
going on and I voted for him.
Daniel: What drew you into the Wilson camp?
Chaney: Hughes was running against him. I liked the Wil-
sonian philosophy. Wilson had been president for
four years.
Daniel: What specifically did you like about the Wilson-
ian ideas?
Chaney: It's pretty hard to remember. I was beginning to
realize that the Republican type of government
was often prejudiced in favor of the capitalist
group in America. I was naturally liberal-minded,
as most young people are.
Daniel: What were you liberal minded about?
Chaney: Perhaps inequality of distribution of wealth. I
remember in my early teaching running into the
fact that a couple of German butchers in Califor
nia owned more acreage than the state &f Connec
ticut or Delaware or some place. It was Miller
and Lux. It amuses me. Since that time I've
been entertained on the Miller ranch a number
of tines. It's just the same old ranch. It's a
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Chaney: part of the Miller millions. But at any rate, it
was the inequality.
Daniel: What inequality?
Chaney: Inequality of opportunity, inequality of wealth.
I thought that many people weren't paid enough;
and that was an economic factor. In capital
versus labor, I was certainly very strongly pro-
labor. I continued so until the general strike
here in the thirties,
I don't remember details, but I remember that
I was interested in labor until the Bridges' type
of labor leader came into prominence. Then I re
alized there were subversive trends. Even that
hasn't dampened my interest in labor, but it has
toward many labor leaders. I thoroughly believe
in labor unions and in collective bargaining, and
in certain aspects of social security, social in
surance. I think that labor is asking for alto
gether too much, but that doesn't mean that I'm
opposed to labor movements. One really can't.
Not even a top capitalist can be opposed to a
large segment of people who represent labor.
My negative reaction is towards labor lead
ers, exemplified by Beck and that type, Reuther,
and various others. I find it wholly impossible
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236
Chaney: to swallow them. In fact, I vigorously oppose
them and vote against them at every opportunity,
Daniel: In general you have a strong inclination to feel
that there should be sharing of economic oppor
tunity?
Chaney: Yes. I think we've probably nearly got there so
far as labor in general is concerned. In fact we
may have passed the median line, but that would
fluctuate back and forth and I'm not greatly wor
ried about that.
The only thing that bothers me is the subver
sive element, in the first place; and in the sec
ond place, the management of labor unions which
involves corruption,
Daniel: Who did you support in 1920?
Cteaney: In 1920 I voted for re it her Cox ror Harding, I
found them both impossible. I thought the coun
try needed a better candidate. There wasn't any
one to vote for,
Daniel: Better in what way?
Chaney: Someone who was forward-looking, I was a Vilson-
ian Democrat, Cox seemed to me I really remem
ber nothing about him except his name, I guess tt
was Cox. Harding I had no use for at all. He
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Chaney: represented the type of Republican that I thorough
ly disliked.
In 192i|, I was a very strong La Pollette man,
and it was the first political work I ever did,
in Berkeley. LaPollette was of the third party,
of course. I remember it very well. That's why
I didn't vote in 1920, because there wasn't any
body I wanted to vote for. As a matter of fact,
I'm fibbing; I voted for Eugene Debs, but it was
really a protest vote against the other parties.
I was a little hesitant about putting it on my
record, though I'm certainly not in the least
ashamed of it.
Daniel: Not at all. It was a protest vote.
Chaney: Well, La Pollette was of course a bona fide can
didate who might have been elected. He didn't
come close, but there was at least a strong fol
lowing. There were men I believe Borah was one
of them whom I admired for reasons which I don't
remember. They were liberals, I guess, and La
Pollette appealed to me very strongly.
In 1928 I worked actively for Smith.
Daniel: What about that campaign? If you worked actively
you must have some impression of the problems in
volved in Smith's candidacy?
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Chaney: Well, even the fact that he was a Catholic was
rough. He wasn't anywhere near my choice, but
he met my choice more nearly than Hoover did, and
I'm Inclined to think if I were doing it again now
I'd vote for Hoover. I became rather disappointed
in Smith later on.
Daniel: Consideration of Smith always comes to mind when
Kennedy's possible candidacy for the presidency
Is discussed.
Chaney: Yes. He's a ward politician type of candidate
and not a New Yorker. I presume I shall vote for
Kennedy if he's nominated, but I'm sure he won't
be, and because he ' s a Catholic. I would vote for
him, I think, naturally. I don't know who the
opposing candidate will be, but presumably I would
vote for Kennedy if he were nominated. And if he
were I think that probably he might be beaten,
even by as weak a man as the Republicans are
likely to put up.
Daniel: But one of the problems In the Smith candidacy
was the fact that he looked as he looked and he
spoke as he spoke. We like to have very polished
people, generally, in the White House. Don't you
think that 's true?
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Chaney: Yes, but we've had a number since who weren't.
Ike Is anything but polished.
Daniel: Oh, but a great many people feel he is exceed
ingly polished.
Chaney: In some ways, perhaps. Truman himself was not my
idea of a well-educated man, although he caught
onto a lot. I am an admirer of Truman as a per
son. I never particularly liked him as a presi
dent, but I voted for him.
*
Daniel: Proceeding to the late twenties, what did the
depression mean to you?
Chaney: My salary was cut ten percent, but my living costs
were cut perhaps more than that, so I'll never
know just how it came out. But the depression
was, on the whole, an advantage to me. It was at
time when my children were growing up and were
quite expensive. Certainly groceries cost less.
It was during that time that I came into the
University, and I should say that the depression
didn't do any particular harm to me.
Daniel: What did you feel about the measures of the New
Deal?
Chaney: Well, ^ was enough for it so I voted for Roosevelt.
Yes. I voted for him three times and for somebody
else along there in the middle, I don't think
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in there. I voted for Norman Thomas once just be
cause It was obvious that Roosevelt was going to
be elected. At that time I thought it was a good
idea to strengthen the Socialist vote, the third
party vote. I wouldn't vote Socialist now because
the Socialist party has a somewhat different flavor,
I presume. I really am not very well informed.
But Norman Thomas was a great man and I admired
him, and it cost nothing to vote for him. I remem
ber once voting for Norman Thomas.
Daniel: The feelings about Roosevelt, either for or against,
are usually very marked.
Chaney: I wasn't extreme, but I liked him very much. At
the end when he was 111 and making mistakes I was
disillusioned, and now I'm completely disillusioned
about his foreign policy. He was, as I vfew it, a
show-off. Rather than watch his step, In order to
call Stalin 'Joe, 1 he was willing to sign away far
more of our rights than any president ever should.
Now, I say that he was ill. He was not getting
enough blood In his brain, and one can't blame him
him any more than one can blame Ike, or for that
matter, Dulles. When I'm ill I don't amount to
much either. It's a mistake to vote for a sick
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Chaney: man. I voted for Eisenhower because I thoroughly
dislike Stevenson as a president, and I'm glad I
did. That is, I'm glad Stevenson was not elected.
I'd rather have Ike sick than Stevenson well.
Daniel What is your objection to Stevenson?
Chaney: I think he's completely impractical, and in inter
national affairs far too much the way Roosevelt
was- -probably not well informed and an Incipient
give-away artist. He had two planks in his last
campaign, which was a pathetic one: one was to
abolish selective service; and the other was to
stop atom bomb testing, as I recall both nutty.
He got a few votes that way and lost ten times as
many.
I say the campaign was silly. I don't know If
all this was Stevenson's idea or not, but anyone
silly enough to run a campaign like that one would
probably make a silly president. Anyway, he was a
terrible candidate. But whatever sort of presi
dent he would have made--as a candidate he was
simply impossible. Ike was a good candidate, and
also is a good president.
Daniel: What, in your opinion, is the most judicious for
eign policy for us to pursue at this time?
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Chaney: I don't know, because our foreign policy has been
so different from what I would like for so many
years. We've got committed to a sort of policy
which we can't possibly continue, or that we can't
correct. I would say this. If I thought we could
get away with it, but of course we can't go back
and do itithe foreign policy of Teddy Roosevelt-
carry a big stick and act tough--that ' s the sort
of foreign policy I would like, but that's whis
tling against the tornado: it's completely out of
the question,
Daniel: What do you think is the role of the United States
in world affairs?
Chaney: I think we should quit supporting foreign countries
whose intentions and record are in the least uncer
tain. I think we should strengthen our defenses.
I am not an isolationist in the sense of 100 per
cent, but I think we've gone far too much in the
other direction,
Daniel: You would have us withdraw
Chaney: Withdraw from places like Egypt and Yugoslavia,
probably from India. A country that is neutral is
an enemy nowadays. I would spend that money on
bigger and deadlier bombs, of course, because we're
losing, presumably, some friendship and we have
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Chaney: more need of resources of our own.
It's impossible, looking back on what has hap
pened to us since 1932, impossible to say at what
point the major errors were made; certainly the
Franklin Roosevelt give-aways were horrible mis
takes. I have read and don't thoroughly approve
the Wedemeyer Report book. Roosevelt had advice
from Wedemeyer which would have been better than
that which he followed. Wedemeyer was a Republi-
can isolationist on the whole, I should think.
If his policy could have been followed we wouldn't
have had the sort of peace we had, the sort of
Germany and Russia we have, perhaps not even the
sort of China we have with Marshall messing things
up with his good Intentions and blundering fashion.
Daniel: Do you think then that we are responsible for the
things that have happened in the development of
communism, for ire tance?
Chaney: Well, we certainly encouraged it in China.
Daniel: What do you think Russia would be doing now if we
had been, as you consider, more effective?
Chaney: I don't know enough about international affairs
to reconstruct a picture of Russia. But certainly
we have allowed Russia to get economic and a
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Chaney: certain degree of political control of areas.
Daniel: How can we combat that?
Chaney: At this point there is perhaps nothing we can do
except show by our way of living a better way of
life. We have our agency...
Daniel: Information services?
Chaney: Yes.
Daniel: How can an information service do this?
Chaney: I've seen it operating in c hina.
Daniel: What does it do in c hina?
Chaney: It gives lectures and shows pictures and has a
library, and gives individual advice. This was
in Chungking in 19l;8. I think it helps wherever
it is. I was staying in a consulate and saw a
lot of it there for se-ue ral weeks. It seems
desirable .
Daniel: Who goes to the information center and to whom is
the information given?
Chaney: Well, any Chinese -who wants to. They would be
literate Chinese, presumably.
Daniel: Ard why would a Chinese person want this, just
because he's curious or because there's some so
cial interest?
Chaney: Well, there's something free, the lectures and
the movies.
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ChaneyJ I don't know from a Chinese point of view. I never
saw great crowds around there. There were men
who went out in the country and gave shows and
talked about the United States 8 At that time
China as a whole was friendly to us.
It's impossible to go back retracing our steps
to figure what we might have done, and I'm not
even saying that anyone could have done better
than Roosevelt under the circumstances, or if
anyone could have done better than Truman or than
Eisenhower. The fact remains that we have lost a
lot of ground. And that is why I say, perhaps
rather stupidly, if we had had a man like Teddy
Roosevelt who acted tough and if that sort of
thing would still go down, and I'm not sure it
would, if we had the "big stick" foreign policy
it would be a better world for Americans.
Whether it would be a better place for Pana
manians and Lebanese I have no means of knowing.
Perhaps it wouldn't. Perhaps the plan is going
to be toward equality of opportunity not only in
the United States but all over the world. Per
haps the dark-skinned people are going to get
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don't admit that they have a share of what we
in this country have developed. Their rulers
and they themselves I'm speaking of Asia and
Africa now --their rulers have been corrupt,
they've wasted the resources of Asia, and in Af
rica they've never developed their resources.
In Africa they don't have much of a culture, an
indigenous culture. Asia has a tremendous cul
ture, of course, but it's been dissipated through
emperors, and their natural resources have been
expended and people have stood for it.
We didn't stand for it. In our part of the
world we rebelled, starting nearly a thousand
years ago, longer ago than that. And we're a
different kind of people in that sense, or we
had better luck. I'm no historian. I just know
that we didn't stand for it, didn't stand for what
the Chinese and Japanese stood for, or what the
Africans stand for. Whether that makes us better
or not I'm not saying. It's fortunate that we
didn't stand for it anyway, isn't it?
And now to think that a bunch of illiterate
Arabs or some obscure tribe of Africans should
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Chaney: have all the opportunities that I or my children
have, seems to me ridiculous. I think probably
they should have more than they have, and that is
where a little more education on ray part or more
intelligence would give me a better basis for an
opinion. You see, about this I really don't know
very much. I don't think the world is being run
as it should be , but to get right down to cases.
I don't think we should have swimming pools and
recreation grounds for every Negro who wants to
come here from Alabama. In Berkeley I voted
against it and shall continue to. I'm neither
a "nigger lover" nor a "nigger hater." (I never
use the word "nigger" except in this context.)
But I see no reason for making Berkeley so attrac
tive to any outsider, including lowans. But, they
all want to come here.
Interest in Local Government
Daniel: This brings us logically to government at the local
level. When did you first take an active part in
Berkeley elections?
Chaney: I got pretty fed up in the late thirties and for
ties with the group that was running the city.
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Chaney: Yes. The Council Manager League was originally
an outfit that favored, I think, a city manager.
But a group of right-wing Republicans took the
name and came to life every two years at election
time. Several of my good friends were in it.
Amusingly, at a political action committee meet
ing last night I suggested that this group take
over the Berkeley Municipal League. It is a very
different group from the Berkeley Municipal League,
I can assure you; it is a group opposed to the
Kent sort, to the left-of-center , Democrat spend-
it-before-you-get-it philosophy. It would be a
perfectly ripping joke to have Ed Martin, who is
a pillar of Republicanism the president of the
Berkeley Municipal League.
That is, the suggestion wasn't particularly
serious and wasn't seriously taken, but I have
moved away from the group that I worked with in
the Berkeley Municipal League for much of the time
because they were much too far to the left for me.
Daniel: When do you think they departed from a program
you could support?
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Chaney: Well, in 19^9 and in 19!?1 the League still had
money and we had a Republican president part of
that time, and the Berkeley Municipal League was
in effect, and actually, non-partisan. It vias
not like the Kent slate and it was not like the
council-manager organization. It had representa
tive men --members of both parties in it.
I am primarily opposed to the Kent group. I
mentioned him because he seems to be the leader--
because they are strictly Democrats, because they
use the Democratic party to further their ends.
I would be as opposed, and incidentally I told
this group last night, a very small group, that
I would be opposed to it and would work against
it if it was a strictly Republican group. I have
no interest in either.
Daniel: The point of view of the Berkeley Municipal League
is quoted here as beirg :
"formed of citizens who need an organiza
tion to make themselves heard on balanced
tax structure, school expansion, city
planning, waterfront development, and who
concern themselves with issues wholly non-
partisan. "
Chaney: Yes, I'm glad that's in there. I helped write that,
of course, and I've always been non-partisan at
this level. Actually, in ray voting I've been
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250
Chaney: pretty catholic, haven't I? I'm a Bull Mooser,
Daniel: You've ranged pretty widely,
Chaney: I've voted Democrat, twice Socialist, and several
tiraes Republican. I never voted for a Prohibi
tionist, but that's about all I haven't.
Daniel: HOW did Lucy Stebbins get into the group?
Chaney: She was a middle-of-the-road liberal, a wonder
ful woman.
Daniel: Yes. And. Mr. Ross was the editor of the paper
that was put out.
Chaneyi He hasn't been active politically in late years.
Daniel: No. And let's see now. Mr. Benner was on the
board of directors, Mrs. Chernin, Jeffery Cohelan,
Lyle Cook, Joseph Harris, Mrs. M.M. Knight now,
who was she?
Chaney: Eleanor A. Knight. She was never in it very long
or very much.
Daniel: And Donald McNary
Chaney: That was a student, one of my friends.
Daniel: --Richard Perkins.
Chaney: He is a very fine man. Incidentally, I want to
go see him. He's a good Democrat.
Daniel: Why hasn't the Berkeley Municipal League con
tinued to be effective?
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251
Chaney: That's what the group asked last night. The
point is we got what we were after. And sudden
ly I lost my political effectiveness as a leader
in the light of my loyalty oath stand.
Daniel: How did this happen?
Chaney: Oh, well, my loyalty oath stand was not that of
the "liberals." The "liberals" were I don't
consider them liberalsbut that's what they
thought. Everyone thinks he's the perfect blend;
the "middle-of-the-road" is what we say, "I'm
neither right nor left, I'm just the way I am, a
middle-of-the-roader." Well, obviously that's
silly. There may be such a thing as the middle
of the road but most of us are on one side or
the other. I'm darn careful nowadays, I'm not
on the left side of the middle of the road, I
assure you.
And at a time like this, when the left side
contains a good many of our enemies, I'm very
careful with whom I associate. So if I have
moved to the right too far I hope I haven't
I still consider myself a liberal in politics.
Daniel: When you say "left," what do you mean?
Chaney: I mean the sort of people that I me* on campus,
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Chaney: and I'm thinking of some, who were always run
ning down the United States and extolling Russsia.
Now, that's silly stuff; it's show-off stuff, but
it reflects a very general point of view, not con
fined to the campus, but I hear it on campus be
cause I have many campus friends,
Daniel: Where would you put the people who are reform-
oriented?
Chaney: They are liberals, and they're probably middle-
of-the-road liberals. Some of them are awful
muddle-heads. Some are people whose names you
read. They are reform people, but they're muddle-
heads. They don't seem to know what they're do
ing with the Negroes, for example, the Negro
problem. Don't ask me what to do with it-
Daniel: (Laughter) I was about to.
Chaney: I put some time into it and tried to come up with
an idea, and I have some idea about bettering the
Negroes politically. Incidentally, the left-
wingers had three candidates, or two, rather,
and there was a third, and none of them got elec
ted. One thing I'd like to do is elect a first-
class non-left Negro. I did it once with Byron
Rumford, and he's gone on to higher levels.
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253
Daniel: What about Mrs. Mayer, wasn't she running?
Chaney: She didn't have much support. She Just didn't
make it; she was high, but she didn't make it.
Daniel: Yes. Now, you've indicated what you consider
to be left-oriented; what do you consider to
be right, very far right?
Chaney: The right is the McCarthyism type of people.
That's the classic case. That's what chased a
lot of people into the Democratic party McCar
thyism. It was a very hard thing for me to take.
Of course, I didn't take it. I had no use for
it. Close friends of mine argued that he was
the defender of the nation against communism,
which I think is nonsense, and I have no use for
that sort of thing. On the other hand, I have
as much use for it as I have for the point of
view of the extreme left wingers. I don't like
either.
Daniel^ You identify left wing with influences that are
outside of the United States?
Chaney: Not necessarily. I identify it with extreme labor
position. I would use it also for either party
that use minority races for political purposes
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Chaney: as the Kent group did in this election. There
are plenty of aspects I haven't thought about
very carefully, and I'm saying more about this
than I've ever said in one breath before. There
are plenty of things about the extreme leftist
that I don't like, and there are plenty of things
other than McCarthy ism that I don't like about
the extreme rightists.
The point is, I guess, I'm not complaining
about either electorate. I'm complaing about
extremists.
As between the two, if I had to take one I'd
take the extreme right, and I'd sure hate myself.
But the extreme left has so many subversives in
it that I wouldn't take a chance. In other words,
I'd rather have the United States gone back, re
trogressed to the stupidity of the McCarthy sort
of rule than have it Russianized. Neither of
those alternatives in imminent and it's rather
silly to talk that way. But maybe that would
sort of indicate that I'm a little more to the
right than to the left.
Daniel: Concepts of right and left change a good deal.
Chaney: They sure do. La Pollette's harebrained ideas of
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255
Chaney: the early twenties are so commonplace nowadays
that we'd consider him an arch conservative,
Daniel: What do you consider are the most pressing
problems in a local government?
Chaney: I doubt if I've done very much thinking-
Daniel: Of course you have, or you wouldn't be partici-
pat ing .
Chaney: But I would say this about the local situation.
I would quit free spending or plans for free
spending,
Daniel: What do you mean by free spending?
Chaney: I've looked around the town quite a lot on the
school bonds issue. School people say that many
of the items that are so urgently required are
not needed at all. A school for example, in
Berkeley which is listed for a library already
has one which a teacher in it says is adequate.
I am not interested in swimming pools in ele
mentary schools. I doubt that I am in high
schools, but certainly not in elementary schools.
I see no reason why we should have free night
adult education schools. I think it's well
enough to have tuition charged and give them fa-
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cilities, but I don't see any reason why I should
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Chaney: pay for grown-up education. Free spending in
education Is one thing I'm opposed to.
Speaking of free, I'm certainly opposed to
freeways through residential areas. I'm opposed,
in general, to taking land off the tax rolls.
Daniel: This is one of the problems facing Berkeley.
Chaney: True. And I don't think either the Kent group
or the opposition has taken a clear stand on it.
I would take a definitive stand against it and re
fuse to permit, if I could, if I could legally,
another sale of private land into public owner
ship until I knew I was going to get my taxes
out of it. This is going to be just one big
public institution. And the few people who
aren't in it are going to, naturally, leave and
go somewhere else. Maybe we should have a pub
lic area here like Washington, D.C. Though they,
of course, have private property and pay taxes.
The idea of condemning land is completely wrong;
incidentally; Kent thinks so, too. What's his
name, my good friend, Purcell was bitterly op
posed to it, when he was county supervisor.
And there's a Republican and a Democrat, each
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257
Chaney: one opposed to it; you see, it's not a matter
of party politics. It's just common sense.
Daniel: How do you explain the fact that this has been
a problem that hasn't been resolved very well
in Berkeley?
Chaney: This problem hasn't been resolved anywhere. We
don't have any new taxes. I'm perhaps getting
beyond ray depth but I'm certain I'm correct about
this. I'm certain in most parts of the United
States there aren't any new taxes. I've run into
this in the Save the Redwoods League. Say the
League buys and the state buys an acreage in
Humboldt County. It has a very low tax roll, a
very low total. We take that out of private
ownership, and therefore there are more taxes, so
Humboldt County loses the taxes it's been getting.
And eventually if we keep on taking public
land Humboldt County and counties like it are
going to be in a very serious condition. It
wouldn't matter in -^lameda County for parks, but
in H un iboldt it's a very different matter. I
don't approve of it, though I've been participat
ing in it. And I think we should get together,
somebody who knows about this, I don't, and
figure out the proper way to mee this tax problem.
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258
Chaney: It's ridiculous for the University to get
police and fire service from the city of Ber
keley and not pay to the hilt for it. And yet
an attempt was made, an honest--but I think it
was too low an estimate, it was only about half
what it should have been some $0,000 O r f 60, 000,
That was defeated somewhere along the line. I
don't remember by which side. It's perfectly
absurd to have the benefits that I pay for go
ing to an institution or an individual who
doesn t pay taxes. The inequity of it bothers
me.
Daniel: Did you^ vote in the city election bear out your
point of view in local government?
Chaney: In this recent election I voted for at least one
person, a couple of people, whom ^ don't espe
cially approve of, but I wanted them more than
I wanted the people running on the Kent slate,
and so I voted for them. Unfortunately you
have to take extremes on the two party system,
just as I would vote for McCarthy over Bridges
if they were on the ticket. I'm laboring that
point a bit; maybe I wouldn't vote at all, but
if I had to choose between those two kinds of
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259
Chaney: people, with the greatest reluctance I would
take the extreme right, because at least it's
neither one is American, neither one follows the
ideals of our country but it's more American
than the Bridges' type,
Daniel: It was an interesting election. Mrs. May got
onto the council. Of course Mrs. Thomas had
been on the council for a long time, she has
the support of organizations supporting Incum
bent candidates.
Chaney: Well, she's a Republican, too. Of course she had
Republican support. I don't approve of it but
we know a lot of people vote for both parties.
As a strong Republican she got a lot of Repub
lican votes and lost a good many Democrat votes.
By the same token May got lots of Democrat votes.
And in addition she got Liberal votes, and she
had friends and well, she just barely squeaked
by. And any one of the three, May, DeMello, or
Whitney could have been elected.
It makes me kind of sore to realize that
DeMello 's advertisements, which I sent out, were
in rather poor taste, and my wife and some other
women I know didn't want to send those out. If
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Chaney: we had sent those out we probably would have
elected DeMello. He missed by only a few
hundred votes. But he was 'Al 1 and this and
that, a kind of intimate west-of-the-tracks
tone, and the ladies didn't go for it.
Daniel: Well, these are the small things that some
times add up to a significant difference in
the result of an election.
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XV. PORCELAIN
Daniel: There's another subject we haven't touched: your
interest in porcelain.
Chaney: My great-grandmother brought in the horse and
wagon to Illinois from Ohio to Virginia, some
beautiful porcelain pieces, of which I have one
or two. I started in collecting porcelain with
out knowing anything about that.
I don't think there's any connection. Per
haps I may have inherited good taste, if that is
in genes, maybe it's mostly environment. I
really don't know; I haven't any opinion to ex
press. All I'm saying is that in 192 when my
wife and I were in Peking one of the first things
I did was to buy for the equivalent of thirty
cents a very beautiful Celadon plate at a temple
fair in Peking. She'd been going to them. I'd
been out in the Gobi and when i got back she knew
pretty well what the town was like. And I became
greatly interested in these porcelains, which were
within my price range, and bought just a few that
year. Then in 1933 I bought a good many more, in-
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Chaney: eluding some very good ones.
In 1937 we were there together. My -wife was
with me in China again in 1937, and that was, you
may recall, the year the war with Japan started,
and there was a good deal of liquidation of stock,
so we bought quite a lot of things at bargains in
Peking In 1937.
Then in 19^8, well, I was so busy with red
woods, I sot off once or twice but didn't have
any time or facilities.
But starting in with my trips to Japan in
1950, I became deeply interested in Kutani and
Imari.
I collect just for fun, I have bought for
friends lots of things that they wanted, that
they asked me to get. But when I see things
which are beautiful and I like to look at and
that I can afford--the best things, of course,
I can't afford, but some of them ^ can, broken
ones I can almost always buy, like this one.
Daniels Mrs. Chaney showed me some of the pieces that
you had mended.
Chaney: Yes, this one is mended by Chinese, and its pretty
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263
Daniel: It's very handsome.
Chaney: Well, it's fabulously beautiful for a green K-utani.
Daniel: What does MRutani" rre an?
Chaney: It's the name of the place where it Is made.
Daniel: When you make your selection of a piece, what at
tracts you first?
Chaney: Color is the primary interest with me. That in
cludes glaze, which is, I suppose, texture, color,
and glaze, I've always been interested in color
and texture in nature. Bright colors I like very
much, and Kutani is bright red, and bright green,
and blue. I like color.
Birds have been a hobby all my life. Birds are
bright-colored. I certainly don't like the modern
Japanese pottery and porcelain, which is dull
brown. I abominate the old masters who were so
faded. I have a few Sung paintings that are in
that category, and I don't look at them very often,
not nearly as often as I look at much later Japan
ese prints of which I have a great many.
Daniel: You also have a collection of Japanese
Chaney: Oh yes, I have several hundred, I guess, Japanese
prints.
Daniel: Early eighteenth century?
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26k
Chaney: Yes. Michener's book describes these prints.
Daniel: The Ukioye School, I think it's called.
Chaney: Yes. They're fire things. Because I'm interested
in Japan I'm interested in seeing the pictures of
Japan of several centuries ago.
Daniel: Have you consulted any experts in Oriental art?
Chaney: I have had a little bit of acquaintance with Dr.
Less ing, and with Lauffer at Chicago, and vari
ous others. And I've handled enough Oriental ob
jects so that I at least have a touch. If I like
a thing,! buy it.
Daniel: Is your judgment fairly accurate about porcelain?
Chaney: Yes, I'd match myself against some of the pros,
simply because I've handled so much of it,
Daniel: Porcelain collecting is a perfectly sound economic
venture,
Chaney: Yes, I think it is. Eventually, some day, we'll
make a lot of money out of it. Of course, I have
no interest in that. I have one piece that I paid
$35> for. One of my Japanese friends who is per
haps better able to comment than anyone else on
its value says it's worth at least a thousand
dollars now. But it was just a lucky chance,
knew it was awful good or I wouldn't have paid
$35? for it because I rarely pay that much. My
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265
Chaney: typical purchase is much lower.
Daniel: What's your top?
Chaney: Oh, it's around in there, $50.
Daniel: You're not speculating in porcelain. You buy it
because you like it.
Chaney: I buy it because I like it and like to look at it.
When I get so I don't like to look at it I let
somebody have it, but mostly I keep it in the
family.
Daniel: Have you ever put it out on loan for any e xhibi-
tion?
Chaney: Yes, but never with my name on it.
Daniel: Where have you shown it?
Chaney: Around the Bay. The curator at the National Mu
seum in Tokyo who said my piece was worth at least
a thousand dollars, said no porcelain group in the
United States would be complete without this. But
of course I don't want to send it around the coun
try. Why should I? It's mine. I like to look
at it.
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266
XVI. THE RALPH WORKS CHANEY FAMILY
Daniel: Since we skipped lightly over your family life
before coming west, more comment is needed,
Chaney: Well, I was married in 1917 to Marguerite Seeley,
a Kentucky girl whose grandfather was a chaplain
of the Confederacy, a Virginian.
Daniel: Was she in school?
Chaney: Yes, she was at the University of Chicago. I met
her there.
Daniel: Was she interested in the same field?
Chaney: Not at that time. She was interested in history
and economics, I believe. Later she was a Phi
Bete, which I never was.
Daniel: Did you meet her in class?
Chaney: Oh, I met her socially through one of my sisters.
In those days people didn't get married and
then decide how they were going to finance it. We
were engaged for two years before we figured we
could get married and have some resources.
Daniel: This was true of the period, wasn't it?
Chaney: Oh yes. It was no credit to me. Nowadays probably
I would get married and charge even the preacher's
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267
Chaney: fee to the future, but in those days three thousand
dollars seemed an essential amount.
Daniel: Was this size bank account essential to the launch
ing of marriage?
Chaney: Yes. * invested it and I suppose I've never spent
it. It's a little hard to tell, (laughter) the way
ray bookkeeping is carried on. But at any rate it
was always a resource that could '->e drawn upon.
The fall after we were married I went to Iowa,
that was in 1917. We had a baby in 1919, Richard.
Ellen came along in January. They're two years
apart--and the last one was born in 1923. Yes,
that's right. Ellen was born just over into Janu
ary 1922 and David was born in December 1923.
We had Ellen and Richard when we came out here,
David is the only native son. We considered going
to Nevada to avoid having a native son in the
family but (laughter) anyway, we have one.
Daniel: Richard is the oldest child. What is his field?
Chaney: He studied forestry at the University. Before he
finished he went out with the Corps of Engineers
into the Pacific and worked until about 19l|3
Then he came back and enlisted in the navy and
4-
got his ensign commission at Columbia and went
.
.
.
.
-
'
.
t
.
.
*
<
.
.
.
268
Chaney: back into the Pacific on a PT boat, commanding of
ficer on a PT and later an executive officer of an
LST.
Daniel * You say he was in the Corps of Engineers in the
Pacific. Was this as part , of. the navy?
Chaney: No, civilian. He was too young at that time.
Daniel: A Seabee?
Chaney: Well, the navy called them Seabee s, ^ guess. Any
way he was building landing strips, gasoline in
stallations, harbors. He did a lot of heavy con
struction work.
So when the war was over and he came back he
was greatly interested in engineering. He fin
ished up his forestry and got a degree in civil
engineering and has been a practicing engineer
ever since.
Daniel: In this area?
Chaney: In various areas. He helped build the freeway out
of East Oakland. He had a couple of years, more
than a couple, about four years at Bishop, and now
he's in charge of a big unit of the State Highway
Commission Traffic Department in San Diego County.
Daniel: What about Ellen's schooling?
Chaney: Ellen was taking up general curriculum with em
phasis on science. When she graduated she got a
-
.
,
-
.
.
~ .
-
.
.
.
<
.
-
.
269
Chaney: job with the chemical department of Shell Oil in
Long Beach. I think she finished up the war
there. It was an essential occupation, of course.
Daniel: What about David?
Chaney: David has studied at the University but went to
Davis thereafter and studied enology, wine-making.
He worked for several wineries on graduation.
Within the last three or four years he has gone
into agricultural extension in Napa County. He's
now in Yuba City. His specialty is deciduous
fruits.
Z70
BIBLIOGRAPHY: RALPH WORKS CHANEY
1910
Summer and Fall Birds of the Haralin Lake Region, Mason County,
Michigan, The Auk, Vol. XXVII, No. 3, Jul. '10, 271.
1916
With the Whip-poor-wills, Outing, Oot.'l6, 3l4-
1913
The Ecological Significance of the Eagle Creek Flora of the Columbia
River Oorge, Jour. Oeol., Vol. XXVI, Ho. 7, Oct. -Nov. '18, 577.
1920
The Flora of the Eagle Creek formation, Contributions from Walker
Museum, Vol II, No. 5, Jul. '20.
Further Discussion of the Ecological Composition of the Eagle Creek
Flora (aba.) Geol. Soc. America, Bull., Vol. 3, Nol. 1, '20, 222.
Preliminary Notes on Recent Tertiary Collections In the West (abs.)
Oeol. Soc. America, Bull., Vol. 32, '21, 137.
A Fossil Flora from the Puente Formation of the Monterey Group,
Araer. Jour. Sol. 5th Ser. , Vol. 2, '21, 90.
Flora of the Rancho LaBrea (abs.) Geol. Soc. America, Bull., Vol. 33
'22, 20k.
Notes on the Flora of the Payette Formation, Amer. Jour. Sol.,
Vol. IV, Sept. '22, 21!;.
1923
Report of Progress In Paleobotanlcal Research In the Tertiary of
the West during the Year 1922, Cam Inst. Wash., Year Book Ho. 21,
Jan. "23, UOO.
Paleobotanlcal Contributions to the Stratigraphy of Central Oregon
(abs.) Geol. Soc. Am. Bull., Vol. 3k, No. 1, Mar. '23, 129.
192k
(Studies In Paleonotany of Pacific Region) Carn. Inst. Wash Year
Book, No. 23, '2k, 292.
(Fossil Floras of the John Day Basin) Carn. Inst. Wash., Year Book,
No. 22, <2k, 3U9.
Preliminary Report on a Tertiary Flora tram Northwestern Nevada
(abs.TGeo'l. Sot. America, Bull., Vol. 35, '2U, 162.
Z7/
192U
Notes on the Occurrence of Terrestrial Plant Dossils In Association
with Marine Deposit* In the Western United States, Proc. Pan-Pacific
Sol. Con., Australia, 1923, Vol I, <2k, 882.
A Note on the Inter-continental Relationships of a Tertiary Flora,
Proo. Fan-Pacific Sol. Con., Australia, 123; , Vol. 1, '2k, 883.
Quantitative Studies of the Bridge Creek Flora, Amer. Jour. Scl.,
Vol. VIII, Aug. >2k, 527.
1925
Tertiary Forests and Climates In the Oreat Basin. and Great Plains,
tabs.) Oeol. Soc. America, Bull., Vol. 36, Mar. '25, 218.
A Comparative Study of the Bridge Creek Flora and the Modern Redwood
Forest, Carn. Inst. Wash. Pub. 3U9, Aug. '25, 1.
The Mascall Flora, Its Distribution and Climatic Relation. Carn.
Inst. Wash. Pub. 3V3, Aug. "25, 23.
Notes on Two Fossil Hackberrles from the Tertiary of the Western
United States, Carn. Inst. W asn . Pub. 314.9, Aug. '25, 1*9.
A Record of the Presence of Umbellularla In the Tertiary of the
Western United States, Carn Inst. Wash. Pub. 3^9, Aug. '25, 57.
(Studies of the Tertiary Floras of the Western United States) Carn.
Inst. Wash Year Book, No. 2k, Dec. '25, 356.
1926
Relationships of the Marine and Fresh-water Tertiary of Western
North America, Based on Current Collections of Fossil Plants (abs.)
Geol. Soc. America, Bull., Vol. 37, Mar. '26, 213.
(Report on Peleobotanleal Research ) Carn. Inst. Wash. Year Book
No. 25, Dec. '26, 399.
In the Land of the Sheep and the Dinosaur, California Monthly.
May "26, lj.99.
Bearing of Paleobotany on Habitat Conditions In Mongolia. Nat
His., Vol. XXVI, No. 5, '26, 527.
1927
Hackberry Seeds from the Pleistocene Loess of Northern China,
Amer. Mus. Nov., No. 283, Sept. 13, '27.
Finding of Pleistocene Material In an Asphalt Pit at Carplnterla
California, Science, Vol, L "XVl, No. 1702, Aug. 12 '27.
1927 (continued from preceding page)
ew Poplar (Populus Pllosa) from the Eaatern Altai Mountains,
(by Alfred Render) With Supplemental Notes on the Distribution and
Habitat, by R.W. Chaney, Amer. Mus. Nov., No. 292, Nov. 30, '27.
Geology and Paleontology of the Crooked River Basin, with Special
Reference to the Bridge Creek Flora, Carn. Inst. Wash. Pub. No. 3U6,
Pt. IT, '27.
Report, on the Investigation of Fossil Plants, Carn. Inat. Waah.
Year Book No. 26, Dec. '27, 361.
1928 '
, ..... , .
Recent Additions to the Pleistocene History of Western California
(aba.) Oeol Soc. America Bull. Vol. 39, Mar. '26, 221.
Distribution and Correlation of Tertlc Floras of the Great Basin
(abs.) Pan-Amer. Geologist, Vol. U9, May '28, 31U.
Investigations In Paleobotany, Carn. Inst. Wash. Year Book No. 27,
Dec. '28, 382.
Pictures of the Past In Asphalt, Carn. Inst. Wash. News Release,
Ap. 1, '28.
1930
Suggestions Regarding the Age of the Southern Cascade Range (nbs.)
Geol. Soc. America Bull. Vol. 1*1, Mar. "30, llj.7.
The Fossil Flora of Goshen, and Its Bearing on the Problem of Climatic
Change (abs.) Science, N.S. Vol. 72, Oct. 10, '30,
1.3*5
A Sequoia Forest of Tertiary Age on St. Lawrence Island, Science,
Vol. LXXII, No. 1878, Dec. 26, '30, 653. Also in Oeol. Soc. America,
Vol. U2, Feb. '31, 192.
and Herbert Louis Mason, A Pleistocene Flora from Santa Cruz
Island, California, Carn. Inst. Wash. Pub. U15, Pt. I, '30, 1.
1931
Remnant of an Ancient Land-bridge, Carn. Inst. Wash. News Service
Bull. Vol. II, No. 12, Mar. 15, '31.
Redwoods of the Past. Save-the-Redwoods- League. 1931.
Research In Paleobotany, Carn. Inst. Wash Year Book, No. 30,
'31, 27^.
1932
Central Oregon, XVI Int. Oeol. Cong. Guldebood 21, Excursion C-2, '32.
Notes on Occurrence and Aa;e of Fossil piints Found \n the Auriferous
Gravels of Sierra Nevada, Report XXVIII. State Mineralogist, Calif.
State Div. of Mines, Jul-Oct, "32.
2.13
1932 (continued from preceding page)
A Jour
Journey into the Past, Carn. Inst. Wash News Service Bull. Vol. II,
Ho. 33, Jun. 26, '32.
Age of the Auriferous Gravels (abs. ) Geol. Soe. America, Bull.
Vol U3, Mar. '32, 226.
Elne Reise in die Vergangenhelt, Wlssen und Fortschrltt, Vol. 9,
Sept. '32, 2U7.
1933
Palaobotany, Cain. Inst. Wash. Year Book, No. 32, Dec. '33, 205.
A Tertiary Flora from Uganda, Jour. Geol. Vol XLI, No. 7, Oct-Mov, '33, 702
and Lyman H. Daugherty, The Occurrence of Cercls Associated with
the Remains of Slnanthropus, Bull. Geol. Soc. of China, Vol. XII,
No. 3, '33.
A Plelocene Flora from Shansi Province, Bull. Oeol. Soc. of China,
Vol. XII, No. 2, '33.
and Herbert Louis Mason, A Pleistocene Flora from the Asphalt
Deposits at Carplnteria, California, Carn. Inst. Wash. Pub. lil e
III, Mar. '33, U5.
and Ethel Ida Sanborn, .The Goshen Flora of West Central Oregon,
Carn. Inst. Wash. Pub. 1+39, May, '33.
193k
Renewing the Days of Forty-Nine, Carn, Inst. Wash. News Service
Bull. Vol. Ill, No. 17, Sept. 9, "34.
A Journey into the Past, The Meccano Magazine, Vol. 19, No. li,
Ap. '3U. 2^8.
and Erling Dorf, Ecology of the Tertiary Forests of Western North
America, (abs.) Geol. Soc. America, Proc. '33, Jun. "3U, 3<?7.
1935
The Food of Fossil Elephants, Carn. Inst. Wash. News Service Bull.
Vol. Ill, No. 22, Jun. 9, '35.
The Food of "Peking Man" Carn. Inst. Wash. News Service Bull. Vol III,
No. 25, Sept. 22, '35.
The Kucha Flora in Relation to the Physical Conditions in Central
Asi During the Late Tertiary, Sven Hedin, (Book printed in Sweden) '35.
The Occurrence of End&carps of Celtis Barbouri at Choukoutlen,
Bull. Geol. Soc. of China, Vol. XIV, No. 2, '35.
Z7+I
1935 (continued from preceding page)
An Upper Plelocene Florule from the Sanraenlan Series of Shansl
Province, Bull. Geol. Soo. of China, Vol. XIV, No. 3, '35.
The Kucha Flora In Relation to the Physical Conditions in Central
Asia during the Late Tertiary, Svensk. Sallsk. Antropol. oct Geog-
raflska Annaler, Vol. 17, "35, 75.
1936
Fossil Foods, Radio Talk, Science Service. Scientific Monthly,
Vol. XLII, Feb. '36, 169.
The Succession and Distribution of Cenozolc Floras Around the
Northern Pacific Basin, Essays in Geobotany in Honor of William
Albert Setchell, Unov of Calif. Press, '36.
Synopsis of Levtures in Peleontology I, Univ of Calif. Syllabus 260, '36.
Plant Distribution as a Guide to Age Determination, Jour. Acad. Scl.,
Vol. 26, No. 8, Aug. 15, '36, 311*.
and Maxim Konradovich Ellas, Late Tertiary Floras from the High
Plains, Carn Inst. Wash. Pub; 1+76-1, Oct. '36, 1.
and Herbert Louis Mason, A Pleistocene Flora from Fairbanks, Alaska,
Amer. Mus. Nov., No. 887, Oct. 15, '36.
1937
The Book of Ten Thousand Volumes (The Fossil-bearing Shales of Shantung)
Carn. Inst. Wash. News Service Bull. Vol. IV, No. 19, Dec. 12, '37.
Plelocene Flora from Eastern Oregon (abs.) Geol. Soc. America,
Proc. for 1936, Jun. '37, 356.
Fossil Plants tn the Making, Carn. Inst. Wash. News Servlc Bull.
School Ed. Vol. k, No. 11, April '37, 99.
Use of Tertiary Plants in Correlation (abs.) Geol. Soc. America, Proc.
for 1936, Jun. '37, 391.
Cycads from the Upper Eocene of Oregon (abs.) Geol. Soe. America,
Proc. for 1936, Jun. '37, 397.
Notes on the Finding of Mammals and Plants in Frozen Pleistocene
Deposits near Fairbanks, Alaska (abs.) Geol. Soc. America, Proc.
for 1936, Jun. '37, 399.
with Dr. Frederic E. Clements, Environment and Life In the Great
Plains, Carn. Inst. Wash. Supplementary Publication, No. 2k,
Feb. 15, '37.
1938
Paleoecologlcal Interpretations of Cenozolc Plants in Western
North America, Botanical Rev. Vol. k, Jul. "38, 371.
1936 (continued from preceding page)
Ancient Forests of Oregon: A Study of Earth History tn Western
America, Carn. Inst. Wa-h. Pub. No. 501, '38, 631.
The Deschltes Flora of Eastern Oregon, Carn. Inst. Wash. Pub. k76,
'38, 187.
and M.K. Ellas, Late Tertiary Floras from the High Plains, Carn.
Inst. Wash. Pub. No. U76, Pt. I, '38.
and Associates, Dept. of Paleontology, Univ. of Calif. Berkeley,
Summary of Climatic Data In Papers on Cenozolc Paleontology of
Western North America, Blue Hill Observatory, Harvard Univ., for
the American Committee of the International Commission on Climatic
Variations, Amsterdam, Jul. '38. Also published In Cong. Internet.
Geographie, Amersterdam, 1938, Comptes Rendus, tome 1, 1938, 579.
1939
Discrepancies between the Chronological Testimony of Fossil Plants
and Animals, Proc. 25th Indian Science Cong. Part IV-Dlscusslons .
Mar. 21, <39.
Univ. of Calif. Berk.
Synopsis of Lectures In Paleontology I, XtXX Syllabus 268, '39.
Plant Fossils In the Making, Young People, Vol. LIX, No. 9, Mar. 5, '39, 65.
19itO
Tertiary Forests and Continental History, Bull. Geol. Soc. America.
Vol. 51, Mar. 1, "1+0, 1(.69.
Bearing of Forests on the Theory of Continental Drift. Scientific
Monthly, Vol. LI, Dec. <kO, W9.
and Others, Paleobotany, Carn. Inst. Wash. Year Book 39, '39-l;0, Published
/'l9iil
Nomenclature and Correlation of the North American Continental Tertiary,
Bull. Geol. Soc. America. Vol. ?2, Jan. 1, 'la. (Report by Horace
E. Wood, 2ndl, Ralph W. & haney, John Clark, Edwin H. Colbert, Glenn
L. Jepsen, John B. Reeslde, Jr., and Chester Stock).
Living Forests are Ci ue to Climate In Ancient Ti mea Science News
Letter, Pe*. 1, 'la.
Fifty Million Years of Redwoods, Oakland Blower ''how Program, 1914.1.
Notes on Field Studies In the Miocene of Columbia Plateau (abs.)
Amer. Jour. Botany, Vol. 28, No. 10, Supp, fi, Dee. 'la.
The A(?e of the Dalles Formation (Oregon) (abs.) Geol. Soc. America.
Bull. Vol. 52, No. 12, Pt. ?, 19U5, Dec. 1, 'la.
tUi>, Uso Wo , am*^^ V' lo -^_ ^.^^ ^a~~ c^f P aArvv ^ J .,a^^ L .
19lil (continued from preceding page)
and Others, Paleontology, Carn. Inst. Wash, Year Book 40, Dec. 12, l|l, 132
19li2
Topographic Significance of Fades Differences In the Miocene Floras
of Oregon (abs.) Oeol. Soc. America, Bull. Vol 53, No. 12, Pt. 2,
1798, Dec. 1, '^2.
and Others, Paleontology, Carn. Inst. Wash. Year Book lj.1, Dec. 18,
<k2, 138.
and Others, Paleontology, Carn Inst. Wash. Year Book U2, Dec. 7,
'U3, 103.
PHllocene Floras of California and Oregon, Introduction. Carn. Inst.
Wash. Pub. 553. 'kk, 1.
The Dalles Flora (Oregon) Carn. Inst. Wash. Pub. 553, 'UU, 280.
The i routdale Flora (Oregon) Carn. Inst. Wash Pub. ^53, 'kk, 323.
Plelocene Floras of California and Oregon, Summary and Conclusions,
Carn. Inst. Wa h. Pub. 553. 'kk, 353.
A Fossil Cactus from the Eocene of Utah, Amer. Jour. Botany, Vol. 31,
No. 8, Oct. >kk, 507.
Trees and History, Science In the University of California, '14;, 2U7.
19U5
Paleobotany. Carn. Inst. Wash. Year Book, Vol. kk,
Dec* 'U5, 86.
Paleobotany, Carn. Inst. Wash. Year Book, Ho. U5, Dec. '1).6, 121.
1947
Paleobotany, Carn. Inst. "ash. Year Book No. W, Dec. 'U7, 10U.
Origin and Development of Natural Florlstlo Areas with Special
Reference to North Amerlcn-Te tlary Centers and Migration Routes,
Ecological Monographs, Vol. 17, No. 2, Apr. 'kit 139.
Question of Correlation of Continental Tertiary Deposits (abs.)
Geol. Soc. America, Bull. Vol. 58, No. 12, 121+9, Dec. ' lj-7.
19JL6
Plelocer.e Flora from the Rattlesnake Formation of Oregon (abs.)
Oeol. Soc. America, Bull. Vol. 99, No. 12, Dec. 'U8, 1367.
Redwoods In China, Nat. Hit. Vol. 57, No. 10, Dec. >\iB, l&O.
Z77
19U6
Fale"<
(continued from preceding page.)
ITeobotany, Carn. Inst. Waah. Year Book, No. kit ec. 10, >ko, 110.
The Bearing of the Living Metasequoli. on Problems of Tertiary
Paleobotany, Proc. Nat'l. Acad. Scl. Vol. 3k, No. 11, Nov. 'U8, $03.
The Ancients Porests of Oregon, Condon Lectures, Oregon State """ystera
of Higher Education, Eugene, Oregon, <k&
19U9
Miocene Occurrence of Sequoia and Related Conifers In the John Bay
Basin, Proc. Nat'l Aoad. Scl. Vol 35, No. 3, Mar. '^9, 125.
Early Tertiary Ecotones In Western Northftlerlca, Proc. Nat'l.
Acad. Sol. Vol. 35, No. 7, Jul. 'V?, 356.
Paleobotany, Carn. Inst. Wash. Year Book N^. US, Dec. 9, 'U9. 106.
1950
Paleobotany, Carn. Inst. Wash Year Book No. U9 t Dec. 15, '50, lll^.
1951
A Hevlslon of Fossil Sequoia and Taxodlum In Western North America
Based on the Recent Discovery of Metasequola, Amer. Phllos. Soc.
Trans, n.s. Vol. kO, Pt. 3, Feb. '51, 171.
INDEX
Academic Senate 166, 178
"Admiral Simpson" 37
Alaska 38, 39
American Museum 80
Andrews, Roy 75, 80, 92
"Arabella" k
Argonne laboratory 15>2
Arnold, Ralph 39-lj-O
Arnold Arboretum 61, 96
Asia 79-96, 97
ASUC 177-206
Bacon Hall 75,76-77,
Bartica, British Guiana 129-130
Bear's Lair 193
Beck, David 235
Beebe, Dr. William
Benner, Mr. 263
Berkeley Municipal League 171, 2i4-8-25l
Berry, Dr. E. W. 60
Big Basin 211
Big Bend 217
Blaine, Mrs. Emmons Itf , h&
Board of Athletic Control 18 1-183
Bolton, Herbert 216
Boone, Daniel U2-l|3
Borah, Senator Win. E. 237
Bretz, J. H. Ijjj. 65
Brewer, VTrti. 134
Bridges, Harry 172, 235, 258
Brookhaven 152
Brooks, Sumner Gushing 12lj.
Bryan, Charles W. 233
"Bull Moose" Party 5, 233
Buwalda, Uohn 68
California Club 175-177, 188, 20ij.
Camp, Charles 66, 123
Carnegie Institution 66-78
Chamberlain, Charles J 22
Chamberlin, Thomas C. 22, 65
Chamber 1 in, Roll in 65
-
.
t
t
t
t
-
.
.
,
.
.
ii
Index (cont'd)
Chaney, Anna Davis
Charle s
David
Ellen
Pred
Ralph
Richard
Samuel
Cheng (Forestry Dept. , Nanking Univ. )
Chicago Tribune
Churchill, Winston
Civilian Conservation Corps. (CCC)
Clark, Bruce
Clements, Frederic E,
Cohelan, Jeffery
Colby, William
Committee of ! 1;8
Committee on Committees
Connick, Arthur
Cook, Lyle
Cooksey, Dr. Donald
Coulter, John M.
Council Manager League
Cowles, Henry Chandler
Cox, James
Crater National Park
Craters of the Moon National Monument
Curry Company
Dally Gal
Daniel, J. Prank
Darrah, William C.
Davis Campus
John Day Basin
Dearborn, Dr Ned
Debs, Eugene
de Chardln, Pierre Teilhard
DeMello, Albert
DeVoto, Bernard
Dinosaur National Monument
Drury, Aubrey
Newton
Dulles, John Poster
Ecology
'definition of
Eisenhower, Dviight D.
Ewing, Maurice
1,2
3
Ilj2,267,269
267,268
1,3,5
1
11+2, 16?
230-231
122
101;, 109
250
213
166-168
178
212
2^0
155
3k
21+8
3^-35, lA, 65
236
220-221, 223
222
223, 226
181+-186, 191, 193, 205
19
63
175, 176
68, 77-78, 79, 116
12, ll;, 21, 23
237
82-83
259-260
215
216, 217
212
212, 211;, 217
2l;0
110
'
<
<
<
.
.
.
<
t
I
.
1
,
,
.
I
,
I
^
,
t
.
t
t
,
.
t
t
t
ill
Index (cont'd)
"Pair Bear" 196, 197
Field, Marshall k
_ & Company if., 37
Field Museum 13, 23
Finance Committee iBfj., 19U, 198
Florin _ 81
Forest Service
definition of 211
difference from National Park Service 210
Fremont ia Park 227-228
Furlong, Eustace 68
General Electric
Geological Society 78
Geological Survey of China 81, 83
Glacier Point
Grabau, Amadeus 80, 86
Grand Canyon National Park 220-221
Grant, James T. 212
Grinnell, Joseph 208
Harding, Warren G. 233, 236
Harris, Joseph 250
Hollick, Dr. Arthur
Hoover, Herbert
Hu, H. H. 2, 87
Hughes, Charles Evan 23h
I ekes, Harold 2!lj.
Jackson Lake 223
Journal of C-eology i(-5
Kay, George M. 57
Kennedy, Senator Robert 238
Kent, Thomas J. 2^8, 2l|9, 253, 256
Kerr, Clark l8l
Knight, Eleanor (Mrs. M.M. ) 250
Knopf, Alfred 215
Knowlton, Dr. Frank H. 59-60
Krynchtofovich _ 9t
Kutani 262, 263
La Follette, Robert 237,
Landon, Alfred 2l|.0
Latin America 97-98
Lauffer _ , 261;
Lawrence, E. 0. 121, 155, 156
'
e
-
.
t
t <
<
<
,
,
.
. . <
t
<
.
,
< .
.
. . .
.
-
,
t
,
-
' t
. . ,
iv
Index (cont'd)
Lawrence Radiation Laboratory l49-l6lj., 180
Leonard, Richard
Leasing, Ferdinand D. 264
Linn, James Weber
Liver more, Norman 21ij.
___^ _, Laboratory
(A. E.G. installation at) lij-9-154, 156
Louderback, George D. 132
Loyalty Oath 165-174, 2$1
Lull, Richard 134
McCarthy, Senator Joseph 172, 258
McDuffie, Duncan 212
McMillan, Edward 121
McNary, Donald 250
Manchuria 79, 81
Manhattan Project 160
Mantle, Burns 28
Marshall, General George C. 243
Martin, Edward 248
Martin, Richard A. 27
Matinuska Valley 40
Matthew, W. D. 70, 72, 74, 80, 123
May, Mrs. Bernice 253, 259
Merriam, Charles . 68
, John C. 67-69,70-72,75-76,77,
103-104,109,207,212
Merrill, Elmer D. 96
Metasequoia 95-96, 114, 116
see Cheng
see also H. H.Hu
Mexico 75
Michener, James 264
Mining Building 76, 147
Missouri Geological Survey 53
Mongolia 75, 79-80
Muir Woods 231
Nanking University 96
National Academy
National Museum (Tokyo) 265
National Art Gallery (Washington, D. C. )
National Museum (Washington, D.C.) 59, 6l
National Park Service 212,21^,219
and historical monuments 222
definition of 211
difference from Forest Service 210
separation of resort and park 223
.
. . .
.
.
,
,
,
,
.
I
.
.
<
.
.
,
t
, -
.
<
-
'
<
"
. .
t t
Index (cont'd)
National Science Foundation 108
New Deal 239
N. Y. Botanical Gardens 61
Norton, William
Oak Ridge 152, 156
Osborn, Clinton Morris 14-8
Osborne, Dr. Freleigh P. 80
Paleontology, Museum of 70, 7k
Parker, Col. Francis l}.8
School 25,
Perkins, Richard 250
Peters, Fred 11^2
Phillip ine Islands 96-97
Point Lobos 208-209
Porcelain 261-265
see also Kutani
Prairie chicken 8-9
Priestley, Kenneth 180
Pur cell, Kent 256
Reuther, Walter 235
Richardson Grove 220
Roosevelt, Franklin Delano 160, 183,230, 239-2^0,
2^3,21*5
Roosevelt, Theodore 5,55233,2l|2,2i|-5
Ross
see Berkeley Municipal League 250
Rumford, Byron 252
Salisbury, Rollin D. 3ij., lj.6, 65
Sanford, Laura Jeanette
, Suzanna 3, 5
Santa Barbara Campus 175, 176
Save-The-Redwoods League 207, 212-211]., 257
Seeley, Marguerite 266
Selective service 157-163
Shulford, Victor E. ijl-I|2
Sierra Club 213, 211;
Smith, Alfred E. 237-238
Smith, J.P. 67
South Dakota Geological Survey 38
Spanish- American War 5^-55
Sproul, Robert G. 120, 175, 177-178,181
Sputnik llj.
Stalin, Joseph 183, 2lj.O
Stanford University ll|.3-ll|4
Starr, Walter 213, 21 U, 226
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Index (cont'd)
Stebbins, Lucy
Stevenson, Adlai
Stirton, Ruben A. 118-119, 121
Stock, Chester 68, 69
Stone, Hurford 177, 185
Strong, R. M.
Student Welfare Committee 196
Student store 191-19lj-
Teller, Edward 150
Thomas, Leonard C. 57
Thomas, Norman 2i|0
Trees of Mystery 220
Tressider, Mrs. Mary 226
Trowbridge, Arthur C. 57
Truman, Harry 239,
Tze 9k
Ukioye School 263
UCLA 1*4-8, 176
University of Iowa 56-65
U.S. Geological Survey 36, 68
University of Chicago 25-14-3
Wedemeyer, Joseph (Report) 2ij_3
Welch, Edward 179
Weller, Stuart
Wentworth, Prank
Westinghouse 155
Whitman, Charles Otis 19 , 20 , 22 , 2l|.
Prank 22
Wilbur, Ray Lyman 208
Willkie, Wendell 2lj.O
Wild Birds in the City Parks lij.
Wilson, Woodrow
Wiirth, Henry Edgar 217
Winthrop, Governor John 14-
Wong, W. H.
World War I lj.6-58
Yellowstone National Park 218-219,222,231-232
York, Dr. ^erbert Prank l5l
Yo semite National Park 2l8,222,223,22i|
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