Plato, with an English translation

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FOUNDED BY JAMES LOEB, LL.D.

EDITED BY
+ T. E. PAGE, o.n., trrt.p.
+ E. CAPPS, PH.p., LL.D. + W. H. D. ROUSE, trrt.p.
L. A. POST, m.a. E. H. WARMINGTON, .a., F.R.HIST.SOC,

PLATO
IV

PLATO

WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION

IV

LACHES PROTAGORAS MENO
EUTHYDEMUS

BY

W. R. M. LAMB, M.A.

SOMETIME FELLOW OF TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDGE

CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS
HARVARD UNIVERSITY PRESS
LONDON
WILLIAM HEINEMANN LTD

MCMLII

‘ io — e
. 4 fe.

First printed 1924

Revised and reprinted 1987, 1952 ~

SESOS
YAN 25 65

Printed in Great Britain

PREFACE

Tue Greek text in this volume is based on the

recension of Schanz: a certain number..of emenda-
tions by other scholars have been adopted, and
these are noted as they occur.

The special introductions are intended merely to
prepare the reader for the general character and
purpose of each dialogue.

W. R. M. Lams.

an na Mn oy a

my

i eet S33

CONTENTS

GENERAL INTRODUCTION . .
LACHES . : : ° t
PROTAGORAS . . :

: MENO : = . °
EUTHYDEMUs . x : e
INDEX , j . . .

- << ——-—— - ——

PAGE

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

Prato was born in 427 s.c. of Athenian parents who
could provide him with the best education of the
day, and ample means and leisure throughout his life.
He came to manhood in the dismal close of the
Peloponnesian War, when Aristophanes was at the
height of his success, and Sophocles and Euripides
had produced their last plays. As a boy he doubtless
heard the lectures of Gorgias, Protagoras, and other
sophists, and his early bent seems to have been
towards poetry. But his intelligence was too pro-
gressive to rest in the agnostic position on which
the sophistic culture was based. A century before,
Heracleitus had declared knowledge to be impossible,
because the objects of sense are continually changing ;
yet now a certain Cratylus was trying to build a
theory of knowledge over the assertion of flux, by
developing some hints let fall by its oracular author
about the truth contained in names. From this
influence Plato passed into contact with Socrates,
whose character and gifts have left a singular impress
on the thought of mankind. This effect is almost

wholly due to Plato’s applications and extensions of
VOL. IV A2 ix

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

his master’s thought ; since, fortunately for us, the
pupil not only became a teacher in his turn, but
brought his artistic genius into play, and composed
the memorials of philosophic talk which we know
as the Dialogues. Xenophon, Antisthenes, and
Aeschines were other disciples of Socrates who drew
similar sketches of his teaching: the suggestion
came from the “ mimes ” of the Syracusan Sophron,
—realistic studies of conversation between ordinary
types of character. As Plato became more engrossed
in the Socratic speculations, this artistic impulse
was strengthened by the desire of recording each
definite stage of thought as a basis for new discussion
and advance.

When Plato was twenty years old, Socrates was
over sixty, and had long been notorious in Athens
for his peculiar kind of sophistry. In the Phaedo he
tells how he tried, in his youth, the current scientific
explanations of the universe, and found them full of
puzzles. He then met with the theory of Anax-
agoras,—that the cause of everything is “mind.”
This was more promising : but it led nowhere after
all, since it failed to rise above the conception of
physical energy ; this “ mind ” showed no intelligent
aim. Disappointed of an assurance that the universe
works for the best, Socrates betook himself to the
plan of making definitions of “ beautiful,” “ good,”
‘ large,”’ and so on, as qualities observed in the several
classes of beautiful, good and large material things,
and then employing these propositions, if they
x

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

appeared to be sound, for the erection of higher
hypotheses. The point is that he made a new science
out of a recognized theory of “ ideas ” or “ forms,”
which had come of reflecting on the quality predicated
when we say “ this man is good,” and which postu-
lates some sure reality behind the fleeting objects
of sense. His “ hypothetical” method, familiar to
_ mathematicians, attains its full reach and significance
in the Republic.

The Pythagoreans who appear in the intimate
scene of the Phaedo were accustomed to the theory
of ideas, and were a fit audience for the highest
reasonings of Socrates on the true nature of life and
the soul. For some years before the master’s death
(399 B.c.) Plato, if not a member of their circle, was
often a spell-bound hearer of the “satyr.” But
ordinary Athenians had other views of Socrates, which
varied according to their age and the extent of their
acquaintance with him. Aristophanes’ burlesque in
the Clouds (423 B.c.) had left a common impression
not unlike what we have of the King of Laputa. Yet
the young men who had any frequent speech with
him in his later years, while they félt there was
something uncanny about him, found an irresistible
attraction in his simple manner, his humorous insight -
into their ways and thoughts, and his fervent elo-
quence on the principles of their actions and careers.
He kept no school, and took no fees ; he distrusted
the pretensions of the regular sophists, with whom
he was carelessly confounded ; moreover, he professed

xi

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

to have no knowledge himself, except so far as to
know that he was ignorant. The earliest Dialogues,
such as the Apology, Crito, Euthyphro, Charmides,
Laches and Lysis, show the manner in which he
performed his ministry. In rousing men, especially
those whose minds were fresh, to the need of knowing
themselves, he promoted the authority of the intellect,
the law of definite individual knowledge, above all
reason of state or tie of party; and it is not sur-
prising that his city, in the effort of recovering her
political strength, decided to hush such an in-
convenient voice. He must have foreseen his fate,
but he continued his work undeterred.

Though he seems, in his usual talk, to have
professed no positive doctrine, there were one or
two beliefs which he frequently declared. Virtue,
he said, is knowledge; for each man’s good is his
happiness, and once he knows it clearly, he needs
must choose to ensue it. Further, this knowledge
is innate in our minds, and we only need to have it
awakened and exercised by “ dialectic,” or a system-
atic course of question and answer. He also be-
lieved his mission to be divinely ordained, and
asserted that his own actions were guided at times
’ by the prohibitions of a “ spiritual sign.” He was
capable, as we find in the Symposium, of standing in
rapt meditation at any moment for some time, and
once for as long as twenty-four hours.

It is clear that, if he claimed no comprehensive
theory of existence, and although his ethical reliance
xii

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

on knowledge, if he never analysed it, leaves him in
a very crude stage of psychology, his logical and
mystical suggestions must have led his favourite
pupils a good way towards a new system of meta-
physics. These intimates learnt, as they steeped
their minds in his, and felt the growth of a unique
' affection amid the glow of enlightenment, that
_ happiness may be elsewhere than in our dealings
with the material world, and that the mind has
_ prerogatives and duties far above the sphere of civic
5 life. *:

After the death of Socrates in 399, Plato spent
some twelve years in study and travel. For the
first part of this time he was perhaps at Megara,
where Eucleides, his fellow-student and friend, was
_ forming a school of dialectic. Here he may have
_ composed some of the six Dialogues already men-
_ tioned as recording Socrates’ activity in Athens.
Towards and probably beyond the end of this period,
in order to present the Socratic method in bolder
conflict with sophistic education, he wrote the
Protagoras, Meno, Euthydemus, and Gorgias. These
works show a much greater command of dramatic
and literary art, and a deeper interest in logic. The
last of them may well be later than 387, the year in
which, after an all but disastrous attempt to better
the mind of Dionysius of Syracuse, he returned to
Athens, and, now forty years of age, founded the
Academy ; where the memory of his master was to
be perpetuated by continuing and expanding the

xiii

GENERAL INTRODUCT ION

Socratic discussions among the elect of the new
generation. The rivalry of this private college with
the professional school of Isocrates is discernible
in the subject and tone of the Gorgias. Plato
carried on the direction of the Academy till his
death, at eighty-one, in 346; save that half-way
through this period (367) he accepted the invitation
of his friend Dion to undertake the instruction of the
younger Dionysius at Syracuse. The elder tyrant
had been annoyed by the Socratic freedom of Plato’s
talk : now it was a wayward youth who refused the
yoke of a systematic training. What that training
was like we see in the Republic, where true political
wisdom is approached by an arduous ascent through
mathematics, logic,and metaphysics. Plato returned,
with less hopes of obtaining the ideal ruler, to make
wonderful conquests in the realm of thought.

The Meno and Gorgias set forth the doctrine that
knowledge of right is latent in our minds : dialectic,
not the rhetoric of the schools, is the means of
eliciting it. The method, as Plato soon perceived,
must be long and difficult: but he felt a mystical
rapture over its certainty, which led him to picture
the immutable “ forms” as existing in a world of
their own. This feeling, and the conviction whence
it springs—that knowledge is somehow possible, had
come to the front of his mind when he began to
know Socrates. Two brilliant compositions, the
Cratylus and Symposium, display the strength of the
conviction, and then, the noble fervour of the
Xiv

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

feeling. In the latter of these works, the highest
powers of imaginative sympathy and eloquence are
summoned to unveil the sacred vision of absolute
beauty. The Phaedo turns the logical theory upon
the soul, which is seen to enjoy, when freed from
the body, familiar cognition of the eternal types
of being. Here Orphic dogma lends its aid to the
Socratic search for knowledge, while we behold an
inspiring picture of the philosopher in his hour of
death.

With increasing confidence in himself as the
successor of Socrates, Plato next undertook, in the
Republic, to show the master meeting his own un-
satisfied queries on education and politics. We read
now of a “ form” of good to which all thought and
action aspire, and which, contemplated in itself, will
explain not merely why justice is better than in-
justice, but the meaning and aim of everything.
In order that man may be fully understood, we are
to view him “ writ large ” in the organization of an
ideal state. The scheme of description opens out
into many subsidiary topics, including three great
proposals already known to Greece,—the abolition of
private property, the community of women and
children, and the civic equality of the sexes. But
the central subject is the preparation of the philo-
sopher, through a series of ancillary sciences, for
dialectic ; so that, once possessed of the supreme
truth, he may have light for directing his fellow-men.
As in the Phaedo, the spell of mythical revelation is

xv

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

brought to enhance the discourse of reason. The
Phaedrus takes up the subject of rhetoric, to lead us
allegorically into the realm of “ ideas,” and thence to
point out a new rhetoric, worthy of the well-trained
dialectician. We get also a glimpse of the philo-
sopher’s duty of investigating the mutual relations
of the “forms ”’ to which his study of particular
things has led him.

A closer interest in logical method, appearing
through his delight in imaginative construction, is
one distinctive mark of this middle stage in Plato’s
teaching. As he passes to the next two Dialogues,
the Theaetetus and Parmenides, he puts off the
aesthetic rapture, and considers the ideas as cate-
gories of thought which require co-ordination. The.
discussion of knowledge in the former makes it
evident that the Academy was now the meeting-
place of vigorous minds, some of which were eager
to urge or hear refuted the doctrines they had
learnt from other schools of thought; while the
arguments are conducted with a critical caution
very different from the brilliant and often hasty
zeal of Socrates. The Parmenides corrects an actual
or possible misconception of the theory of ideas in
the domain of logic, showing perhaps how Aristotle,
now a youthful disciple of Plato, found fault with
the theory as he understood it. The forms are
viewed in the light of the necessities of thought :
knowledge is to be attained by a careful practice
which will raise our minds to the vision of all parti-
xvi

ae

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

eulars in their rightly distinguished and connected
classes.

Plato is here at work on his own great problem :—
If what we know is a single permanent law under
which a multitude of things are ranged, what is the
link between the one and the many? The Sophist
contains some of his ripest thought on this increas-
ingly urgent question : his confident advance beyond
Socratie teaching is indicated by the literary form,
which hardly disguises the continuous exposition of
a lecture. We observe an attention to physical
science, the association of soul, motion, and existence,
and the comparative study of being and not-being.
The Politicus returns to the topic of state-government,
and carries on the process of acquiring perfect
notions of reality by the classification of things.
Perhaps we should see in the absolute “ mean”
which is posited as the standard of all arts, business,
and conduct, a contribution from Aristotle. The
Philebus, in dealing with pleasure and knowledge,
dwells further on the correct division and classifica-
tion required if our reason, as it surely must, is to
apprehend truth. The method is becoming more
thorough and more complex, and Plato’s hope of
bringing it to completion is more remote. But he is
gaining a clearer insight into the problem of unity
and plurality.

The magnificent myth of the Timaeus, related
by a Pythagorean, describes the structure of the
universe, so as to show how the One manifests

xvii

GENERAL INTRODUCTION -

itself as the Many. We have here the latest
reflections of Plato on space, time, soul, and many
physical matters. In the lengthy treatise of the
Laws, he addresses himself to the final duty of the
philosopher as announced in the Republic: a long
habituation to abstract thought will qualify rather
than disqualify him for the practical regulation of
public and private affairs. Attention is fixed once
more on soul, as the energy of the world and the
vehicle of our sovereign reason.

Thus Plato maintains the fixity of the objects of
knowledge in a great variety of studies, which enlarge
the compass of Socrates’ teaching till it embraces
enough material for complete systems of logic and
metaphysics. How far these systems were actually
worked out in the discussions of the Academy we can
only surmise from the Dialogues themselves and
a careful comparison of Aristotle ; whose writings,
however, have come down to,us in a much less
perfect state. But it seems probable that, to the
end, Plato was too fertile in thought to rest content
with one authoritative body of doctrine. We may
be able to detect in the Timaeus a tendency to
view numbers as the real principles of things ; and
we may conjecture a late-found interest in the
physical complexion of the world. As a true artist,
with a keen sense of the beauty and stir of life,
Plato had this interest, in a notable degree, through-
out: but in speaking of his enthusiasm for science
we must regard him rather as a great inventor of
xviii

iii” ee

TRC >

GENERAL INTRODUCTION

sciences than as what we should now call a scientist.
This is giving him a splendid name, which few men
have earned. Some of his inventions may be un-
realizable, but it is hard to find one that is certainly
futile. There are flaws in his arguments: to state
them clearly and fairly is to win the privilege of
taking part in a discussion at the Academy.

W.R. M. Lams.

[Nore.— Each of the Dialogues is a self-contained whole.
The order in which they have been mentioned in this Introduc-
tion is that which agrees best in the main with modern views
of Plato’s mental progress, though the succession in some
instances is uncertain. |

BIBLIOGRAPHY

The following give useful accounts of Socratic and
Platonic thought :—
T. Gomperz : The Greek Thinkers, vols. ii. and iii. Murray,
1901-5.
W. Lutoslawski: The Origin and Growth of Plato’s Logic.
Longmans, 1897.
R. L. Nettleship: Philosophie Lectures and Remains. 2 vols.
Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1901.
D. G. Ritchie: Plato. T. and T. Clark, 1902.
J. A. Stewart: The Myths of Plato. Macmillan, 1905,
a ee Plato’s Doctrine of Ideas. Clarendon Press,
1909.
A. E. Taylor: Plato. Constable, 1911.
A, M. Adam: Plato: Moral and Political Ideals. Camb.
Univ. Press, 1913.
H. Jackson: Presocratics, Socrates and the Minor Socratics,
Plato and the Old Academy (Cambridge Companion to
Greek Studies). Camb. Univ. Press, 1905.

J. Burnet: Greek Philosophy: Thales to Plato. Macmillan, .

1914.

F. M. Cornford: Before and wis 3 Socrates. Camb. Univ.
Press, 1932.

The following are important editions :—

J. Adam: The Republic. 2 vols. Camb. Univ. Press, 1902
W. H. Thompson: The Phaedrus. Bell, 1868.

Pr} The Gorgias. Bell, 1871.
R. D. Archer-Hind : The Phaedo. Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1894.
ne The Timaeus. Macmillan, 1888.

J. Hornets The Phaedo. Clarendon Press, 1911.
L. Campbell: The Théaetetus. Clarendon Press, 1883.
5 a The Sophistes and Politicus. Clarendon Press,
1867. 4
E. S. Thompson: The Meno. Macmillan, 1901.

E. B. England: The Laws. 2 vols. Manchester Univ. Press,
1921.

INTRODUCTION TO THE LACHES

Tuts dialogue is so simple and clear that it requires
but little preparatory comment, and indeed is in
itself an excellent introduction to the Socratic
method of probing the primary difficulties of any
moral question. Two eminent generals, Nicias and
Laches, are consulted by two old men, Lysimachus
and Melesias, who, though their own fathers were
Aristeides the Just and the elder Thucydides, are at
a loss to know what is the best education for their
sons. The four friends have just witnessed an ex-
hibition of fighting in armour, and the immediate
question is whether the boys ought to learn this
new accomplishment. Socrates, now about fifty years
old, is invited to join in the discussion; and after
modestly disclaiming, in his usual manner, any
- knowledge of the subject, he turns the talk into an
investigation of the nature of courage (190). Hence-
forward the argument is between Nicias, Laches, and
Socrates: it soon passes from military to moral
courage (192); and Nicias, working from a defini-
tion which he has previously heard from Socrates,
suggests that courage is knowledge of what is to be
dreaded (194). But this excludes animals and. chil-
dren, and Socrates points out that what is required

! The aristocratic opponent of Pericles: see Meno 94¢
(note).

3

INTRODUCTION TO THE LACHES

is a knowledge of good and evil alike in the past, the
present, and the future,—in fact, an equivalent of all
the moral virtues together (199). Thus they find
themselves as far as ever from knowing what courage
may be, and there is nothing for it but to go to school
themselves with the boys.

The supposed time of the conversation is about
420 B.c., and-Plato’s main purpose in composing the
piece seems to have been to show Socrates’ manner
of dealing with distinguished men who are older
than himself, and who soon recognize in him an
intellectual acuteness at least equal to the steadfast
courage that has already won the admiration of
Laches. The characters of the two generals are
lightly but firmly drawn : Nicias is interested in the
military possibilities of the new mode of fighting,
and wishes to have some reasoned discussion upon
it; Laches is less intelligent, and bluntly dismisses
it as a fashion evidently rejected by the Lacedae-
monians. His gradual conversion from this state of
impatient prejudice to a more philosophic attitude
is admirably presented. On the artistic side we
may also notice the charming dramatic touches by
which Lysimachus’s recognition of Socrates as a friend
of his family is contrived (180-1); the humorous
story told by Laches of the sad plight of Stesilaus
in anaval engagement (183-4) ; and Nicias’s friendly
sketch of Socrates’ artful way of conducting an
argument (187-8). Philosophically, the result of
the discussion appears to be nil; but the emphasis
throughout is rather on the process of the Socratic
“ midwifery ”’ or assistance in bringing correct notions
to birth. In particular we should observe the care
bestowed on evolving the general notion of a quality,

4

ae a pee ae ee a ee

INTRODUCTION TO THE LACHES

as distinct from its various concrete instances (191-2),
and the insistence on the universality of knowledge,
which must somehow embrace all the virtues, and

_ ean suffer no limitation in point of time. The way

is thus prepared for the doctrine of the permanence
and invariability of the true objects of knowledge.

St. II
p. 178

179

AAXH>

[H TIEPI ANAPEIAS’ MAIEYTIKOS]

TA TOT ATAAOTOYT ITPOSOIA

ATSIMAXO3, MEAHSIAS, NIKIAS, AAXH2, MAIAES
AYTZIMAXOY KAI MEAHSIOYT, SQKPATHS

Ar. TeOéac8e prev tov avOpa paxdpevov ev orrAots,
® Nixia re Kat Adxns: od 8° &vexa tds exedcev-
capev avvOedcacba éya te Kat MedAnaias de,

, ~ ~
TOTE [Lev OUK trope, vov 8 épotpev. yovpucba
yap XpAvae m™pos ye opas mrappnovalertau. eiot
yap TWes ot TOV TOLOUTwY Karayeh@ot, Kal édv Tis
adrois cvpBovAevontat, odKk dv elmovev & voovdow,
> ~
adda oroxalouevor tod aupBovAevopevov aAdAa
A€yovat mapa tiv adtadv Sd€av: buds S€ pets
Hynodpevor Kai tkavods ywOva Kal yvovras amA@s
dv eimeiv & Soxet duty, otrw mrapeAdBouev emi

A An) ‘ e ‘rr > ~ 0
Thv ovpBovdAnv mept dmv péAAowev avaxowodcba.
€atw ovv Tobdto, wept ob} mada. Tooatra mpoot-

4 >) e aA + et, | ca e , 50 A
pudlopar, Tdde. uty eioiv viets odTOLL, Ode pEV

~ / ” ” / > ‘ A
TovoE, TamTOV Exwv Gvoua MovKvdidns, eos Se

~ ” “A
ad 6d€* mamm@ov 5€ Kal odtos évop” Exer TOKMOD

6

LACHES
[or ON COURAGE: “ ossterric”}

CHARACTERS

Lysmracuus, Mevestas, Nicras, Lacnes, Sons oF
Lysmracuus AND Metestas, SocRATES

tys. You have seen the performance of the man
fighting in armour, Nicias and Laches ; but my friend
Melesias and I did not tell you at the time our reason
for requesting you to come and see it with us. How-
ever, we will tell you now; for we think we should
speak our minds freely to friends like you. Some
people, of course, pour ridicule on such appeals, and
when consulted for their advice will not say what
they think, but something different, making the
inquirer’s wishes their aim, and speaking against
their own judgement. But you, we consider, not
merely have the necessary discernment but will give
us the benefit of it in telling us just what is in your
minds ; and hence we have enlisted your counsel
~ on the question which we are about to lay before
you. Now the matter about which I have made all
this long preamble is this : we have two sons here,
my friend that one, called Thucydides after his
grandfather, and I this one; he also is named in

7

PLATO

matpos* “Apioteidynv yap adrov Kadoduev. Hytv
obv tovtwy dddoKxrar emyreAnOivar ws oldv re
pdAvota, Kal put) moufoat Omep of moAAol, eed?)
peipdkia yéyovev, aveivac adtods 6 te BovdAovrat
movetv, GAA viv 817) Kal dpyecOar adta@v emme-
Aetobat Kal’ doov ofol 7 eopev: €iddtes obv Kal
bpiv vieis dvtas Hynoducla pepweAnkevar rept
avT@v, eimep Ticiv ddAois, mas av Oeparevbevtes
yevowTo apotou: ef § dpa moAAdKis pu1) Tpoo-
ECXHKATE TOV voov TH ToLovTwW, DropvHoovTEs OTL
od xp) adtod dpedeiv, Kal mapaxadodytes buds
emi TO emipeAcdy twa momoacba Tav viewr
kowy pel?” Hudv.

“Obev Sé tiv rat? eogev, & Nixia te Kat
Adxyns, xp) akotoa, Kdv % odAiyw paxporepa.
avociTrobpmev yap 51) ey te Kal MedAnotas ode,
Kal hyuty Ta peypdKia Tapacite?. OmEp ovV Kal
apxdpuevos elrov tod Adyou, mappynoracdpe0a pos
buds. udv yap éxdrepos tepi Tod éavtod maTpos
moAAda Kal KaAdd épya exer Aéyew mpos Tors veavi-
oxous, Kal doa ev moAdum@ eipydoavto Kai doa ev
eipyjvn, Swovxobyres Ta TE TOV OUppdywY Kal TA
Thode THs ToAcws' Tuerepa 8 adrav epya ovd-
érepos exer Adyew. Tatra 57 tbracyvvoueld Te
Tovode Kal aitidpeba trols matépas judy, ott
Has pev elwv Tpvdav, errevdr) weupaKia eyevoucba,
7a S€ rév GAAwy mpdypata Eempatrov: Kat Totade
Tots veavioxots adra Tatra évdeikvdpcba, A€yovTes
Ort, ef pev apeAjoovow éavT@v Kai 2) TelcovTas
Hpiv, axAcets yevjoovrat, ef 8 ézyseAjoovrat,

8

SP EL LE aE ee eee ee er ee

LACHES

_ the same way, after my father; we call him Aristeides.

Well, we have resolved to give them our most con-
stant care, and not—as most fathers do when their
boys begin to be young men }—let them run loose as
their fancy leads them, but begin forthwith taking
every possible care of them. Now, knowing that
you too have sons, we thought that you above all
men must have concerned yourselves with the ques-
tion of the kind of upbringing that would make the
best of them; and if by any chance you have not
given your attention to the subject, we would re-
mind’ you that it ought not to be neglected, and we
invite te to join us in arranging some way of taking
care of our sons.

How we formed this resolve, Nicias and Laches,
is worth hearing, even though the story be some-
what long. My friend Melesias and I take our meals
together, and our boys share our table. Now, as I
said at the beginning of my remarks, we are going
to speak quite freely to you. Each of us has many
noble deeds of his own father to relate to these
young fellows—their numerous achievements both
in war and in peace, when they were managing the ©
affairs either of the allies or of this city ; but neither
of us has any deeds of his own to tell. We cannot -
help feeling ashamed that our boys should observe
this, and we blame our fathers for leaving us to
indulge ourselves when we began to be young men,
while they looked after other folks’ affairs; and we
point the moral of it all to these young people,
telling them that if they are careless of themselves
and will not take our advice they will win no reputa-
tion, but if they take due pains they may very likely

2 uepdxioy is applied to youths from 15 to 21.
9

PLATO

| Pe Pe! ~ > , »” , a
Tax’ av Tv ovoudtwv ako yévowTo a exovow.
A a
odrou pev odv daci reiceobar: apets Sé 51) TodTo
okorTrodpev, Ti av obtot pwabdvres 7} emiTndedoarTes
OTL aptoTo. yevowTo. elonyjoato oby Tis Hiv
\ ~ A , @ A ” ~ / a“
E Kat Todro To wdbnua, ore Kaddv etn TH vew pabeiv
> a / ~ ~
ev Ordos pdxecbar: Kal emjver Todrov dv viv —
a 20 /, 0 > 8 , a > > £y.
duets Oedoacbe emideixvdpevov, Kat éxédeve
6 4 0 : ” \ ~ > , > aw.
edoacba. Eedoke 81) xpivar abrovs tre €Abeiv
> \ , > ‘ oe < ~ ~ a A
emt Béav Tavdpos Kai buds cvprapadaBety dua ev
ovvleatds, dua dé avpBovAous te Kai Kowwvots,
3A 7 ‘ ~ ~ e7 > ,
eav BovdAnobe, mepi tis Tadv vidwy émipedeias.
a> > ‘ “a > / c «a > 7
180 tadr’ €or a eBovdducba tyiv avaxowdcacba.
70n odv vueTepov pépos ovpPovdrevew Kal mepl
tovtov Tod pabyuaros, elite Soke? yphvar pavOa-
‘\ ~
vew €lTe yj, Kal mepl TOY GAAwy, el Te ExeTE
> / / / > A ” > , 4
éerawéoo pdbyua véw avdpi 7 éemitHidevpa, Kat
Tept THS Kowwvias Aێyew Srroiov TL ToOLiGETE.
>
ni. "Eyw péev, & Avoipaye Kai MedAnoia, én-
awa te tu@v THv Sudvoiay Kal Kowwvetv ETowmos,
\ A / /
olwar dé Kat Adynra rovee.
Baa. ’AAnO4 yap ola, d Nixia. ds 6 ye eAeyev
6 Avoipayos adptt epi Tod Tmatpos Tod avTod Te
~ a ~ ‘
Kal tod MeAnoiov, mavu por Soxel ed cipfobar Kal
= Ld A
eis exeivous Kai eis Huds Kal eis dmavrTas daot Ta
TOV TOAEwY TpaTToVaL, OTL adTois ayeddv TL TADTA
“a ‘
ovpBaiver, & odTos Adyer, Kal wept matdas Kal TeEpt
Tada, Ta ida dAvywpeiobai Te Kai ayeAds dva-
~ a ,
TiecOa. + tadra pev ody Kadds Héyeis, & Avoi-
C i 8’ ¢ ~ A 5A aA an
faye’ Ott Huds wev avuBotrAovs mapaxadeis
10

LACHES

?

come to be worthy of the names they bear. Now

they, for their part, say they will do as we bid ; so

we are now considering what lessons or pursuits will
lead them to the highest attainable excellence.

_ Someone directed us to this particular accomplish-

_ ment of fighting in armour, as being an admirable

_one for a young man to learn; and he praised that

man whose performance you were just watching,

_ and then urged us to go and see him. So we decided

_ that it would be well to go and see the man our-
selves, and to take you along with us not merely as

_ companions at the show, but also as counsellors and

_ co-partners, if you will be so good, in the matter of

_ looking after our sons. That is the question which

_ we wanted to discuss with you. And we look to you

_ now, on your part, to give us your advice, first as

_ to whether you think this accomplishment should be

_ learnt or not, and then as to any other such art or

_ pursuit that you can recommend for a young man ;
and also, how you feel inclined as regards our

’ partnership.

_ nic. For myself, Lysimachus and Melesias, I highly

_ approve of your purpose, and am ready to lend a

. ponds and I may say the same, I think, for Laches

_here.

_ acu. Yes, you think truly, Nicias. For that re-
mark which Lysimachus made just now about his
father and the father of Melesias was very apposite,
in my opinion, not only to them but to us and to
all who deal with public affairs : it is practically the
rule with them, as he says, to treat their private

concerns, whether connected with children or any-

_ thing else, in a slighting, careless spirit. You are

‘quite right in saying that, Lysimachus ;_but to invite

1]

en

5

beehdlt ideaun Tt. tee

—

-

ag

re

-

181

PLATO

ent tiv tav veaviokwy Tradelav, Lwxpdrn Se
7ovde od mrapaxareis, Oavpdlw, mpa@rov pev ovTa
Synpornv, erecta evradba del tas SiarpiBas mrovod-
pevov, Sov Ti ear. TOV ToLwovTwY wv od Cyreis
mept.rovs veous 7) udOnua 7 emirndevpa Kadov.

avr. [lds Aéyets, & Adyns; Lwxpdrns yap dd
Twos TOV ToLoOvTwWY emipeAcLay TETOInTAL;

aa. Idvu pev obv, & Avoipaye.

ni. Todro pév cor Kav eyd Exo eimetvy od
yetpov Adynros: Kal yap adr@ por evayxos
avdpa mpovfevnoe TH viet SiddoKadov povorcijs,
"AyaboxAéovs pabyrivy Aduwva, avdpdv xapte-
aTatov ob} p.dvov tiv povoixny, dAAa Kal Tada
émécov BovAa déov ovvdvatpiBew tTyAtKovTows
veaviokots.

av. Obra, & LXeé«parés te kal Nexia «al
Adyns, of Aiko éyd ert yuyv@oKopev Tos
vewtépous, ate Kat olklay Ta TOAAA SvarpiBovres
i706 Tis HAucias: GAN’ et Te Kal od, & mat Lwdpo-
vickov, exes THde TH oavTod Syudtn ayabov
ovpBovrebcar, xpi) cvpBovdredew. dixaros 8° ef

Kal yap matpicos Hiv pidos Tvyxdvers avr det

yap ey Kal 6 ods marhp éraipw te Kal dilw
huev, Kal mpdrepov exetvos ereAc¥rnoe, mpl Tt
uot SvevexOfqvar. mrepipeper Sé Tis we Kal pv nn
dpr. Tavs Aeydvrwv: Ta yap peipaKia Tad mpos
GAAjAovs olkor Siadeyduevor Sapa emipemvynvrat
Xwxpdrovs Kal ofddpa emawodow: od pevTot
mamote abrods avnpwrnoa, et Tov Lwdpovioxov
Aéyouev. GA’, B maides, Adyere por, 05° €ore
Lwxpdrns, wept od éExdaorore peuvynode;

mars. IIdvu pev odv, & marep, ovTos.
12

LACHES

us to be your advisers for the education of your
boys, and not to invite Socrates here, is to me very
strange, when, to begin with, he is of your district,
and then he is always spending his time wherever
there is any such excellent study or pursuit for young
men as you are seeking.

Lys. How do you mean, Laches? Has Socrates
here given his attention to anything of this sort ?

LacH. To be sure he has, Lysimachus.

nic. I too might perhaps be in as good a position
as Laches to inform you about that; for quite re-
cently he introduced to myself a music-teacher for
my son—Damon, pupil of Agathocles, who is not
only the most exquisitely skilled of musicians, but
in every other way as profitable a companion as you
could wish for young men of that age.

tys. It is not possible, Socrates, Nicias, and Laches,
for men of my years to continue to know our juniors,
because old age makes us spend most of our time
at home ; but if you, son of Sophroniscus, have any
good advice for our friend, who belongs to your own
district, you ought to let him have it. And it is only
right that you should: for you happen to be our
friend through your father ; he and I were constant
companions and friends, and he died without ever
haying a single difference with me. And a certain
recollection comes back to me on hearing what has
just been said: for these boys, in talking with each
other at home, frequently mention Socrates in terms
of high praise ; but I have never asked them whether
they meant the son of Sophroniscus. Now tell me,
my boys, is this the Socrates whose name you have
mentioned so often ?

son. To be sure, father, it is he.

VOL. IV B 13

PLATO

ar. Ed ye vi tiv “Hpav, & Ua@xpares, Sri
6p0ots Tov marépa, dipuorov dvdpav ovTa, Kal
dMus Kat 5) Kat Ort oiketa Ta TE OA Hiv drdper
Kat ool Ta mperepa..

AA. Kai pay, @ Avoipaye, bs pn) adieod ye Tavdpos"
os eya) Kat arAobi. ye avrov ecacdpnv od povov
Tov marépa. aAAa Kat TI marpida. opbotvra: ev
yap TH amo AnAtov pry per €woo ovvavexaspet,
Kaye cou Aéyen Ort et ot aAXou 70cdov Towobroe
elvat, 6p07) av judy % modus tv Kal ovK av Emece

/ ~ ~
TOTE TOLWODTOY mMTApA.

Ar. °Q. XLawxpares, odtos pevror 6 Emawos ore
Kadds, dv od viv érawh tm’ avdpav a€iwv moreve-
ofa Kat eis Tatra eis & odTOL emawodow.
obv toft ote eyw tatra axovwy xaipw dtu evdo-
Kiyets, Kal od dé Hyod pe ev Tois y edvovoTardv
cou elvar. xphv ev odv Kal mpdtepov ye pourav
adTov Tap” Tas al oixelous hyctobat, womrep TO
Sixcawov" vov 8 obdv amo Thode THS TpEpas, emret67)
dveyvapioapev aAAjjAovs, pe) dMus qotet, aa
ovviobi Te Kai yrwopile Kal Nuds Kal Tovade Tovs
vEWTEpOUS, Omws ay Siaowdlnre Kad dpets Ty
TpeTepav piriav. TAOTO pev ov Kal od Troungets
kal 7peis ge Kal adbus drropyjcopev mept de dv

pape Ti pare; Ti doxet; 70 pana Tois
pretpakiows emitydevov elvar 7 ov, TO pabeiv ev
omrAous pdxeobar ;

20. "Aa Kal ToUTwY mépt, & Avoipaye, eywye
meipdoopat ovpPovrevew av te Stvwpuat, Kal ad

1 On the coast just north of Attica, where the Athenians
were severely defeated by the Boeotians in 424 B.c.

14

LACHES

tvs. On my soul, Socrates, it is good to know that
you keep up your father’s name, which was a most
honourable one, both on general grounds and par-
ticularly because of the intimate relation in which
you and we shall equally feel ourselves to be.

tacH. Indeed, Lysimachus, he is a person you
must not lose hold of; for I have observed him
elsewhere too keeping up not merely his father’s but
his country’s name. He accompanied me in the
retreat from Delium,' and I assure you that if the
rest had chosen to be like him, our city would be
holding up her head and would not then have had
such a terrible fall.

Lys. Socrates, this is indeed splendid praise which
you are now receiving from men whose word is of
_ great weight, and for such conduct as wins their

praise. So let me tell you that I rejoice to hear
_ this and to know you have such a good reputa-

_ tion; and you in return must count me as one of

_ your warmest well-wishers. You ought indeed, on
_ your own part, to have visited us before, and treated
_ us on intimate terms, as you have aright to do: now,
however, that we have discovered each other, from
to-day onwards you must make a point of sharing
our thoughts and getting to know us and our young
people also, that you and they may in your turn
preserve the friendship of our houses. That, how-
ever, you will do yourself, and we will remind you
of it another time: but what do you say of the
_ matter on which we began to speak? What is your
view? Is the accomplishment of fighting in armour
a suitable one for our boys to learn or not?

soc. On that matter, Lysimachus, I will do my
best to advise you, so far as I can, and also to do all

15

182

PLATO

a ~ /, a
& mpoxaAj mdvra moveiv. Sucatdrarov pévror pot
a > ~
Soke? elvar, cue vewrepov dvra ravde Kal drew-
i4
potepov tovTwv aKovew mporepov ti Aéyovat Kal
a] / > > ~ A > + < A A
pavlavew map abra@v- éav 8’ éxyw tt dAXo mapa Ta
€ \ 4 /, fe w / ‘
bo TovTwv Aeyoueva, TOT On SiddoKew Kal
Mi] ‘ \ A tf > > > /
meiVew Kat oe Kal tovrovs. GAA, ® Nixia,
ti od A€yer mOTEpos Kudv;
> / lal
ni. ’AM’ oddev Kwddver, & Le«pares. Boxe?
yap Kal €u0t TobTo TO wdOnwa Tots véows déAywov
vas éeriotacd. Maxh i yap 76 pt) GAAOO
elvas émioracba moAAaxfh. Kal yap TO ux) GAAoO
/ > \ ~ e / A A
SiarpiPew ev obs 87 didodow ot véou tas SiarpiBas
mrovetabat, Grav axoAnv dywow, adv & tovrTw,
> Ww a ‘ A ~ , ” > /
ed €xet, bev Kal TO Hua BéAriov toyew avayKn
~ >
oisevds yap t&v. yupvaciwv davddrepov odd
/ >
eAdtTw movov ێxei7-Kal dua mpoonKer padvor
2 , a / \ ‘ Fete WPS. a Pi
eAevdepy tobrd Te TO yopvdovoy Kal 1) lrmuKy;”
od yap ayavos abAnrai éopev Kai ev ofs piv 6
c >
ayav mpoKerrar, pdovor odtor yupvalovrar ot ev
aA > 7,
ToUTols Tos mept Tov moAcuov opydvois yupva-
, a \ /
Copevor. Emerta dvijcer pev TL TOOTO TO paOynwa
lol ~ , / 4
Kal ev TH waxn adrh, ray ev taker dén paxeoOar
~ / / > lol
peta ToAA@v ddAwy: péyrorov pevTor avToo
»” a ~ € / ‘ fs) PY ,
ddedros, Stav AVOGow ai trd€ers Kal dn TL Sey
>
fLovov mpos jovov 7 SiudKovTa auvvopevey TWVL E7TL-
Aécbat 7) Kat &v puyh émiTWepwevov ddAov apvvacba
abrov: ovr av bro ye évos els 6 TOOT’ emoTdpevos
/
ovdev av 7daQor, tows 8 obd€ tao mAEeudvwr, aAAa
ey a ”
mavTayn av tavTn mAcovextot. €étt dé Kal eis
dAAov Kadobd pabrjpatos emOvutay mapakadet To

1 j.¢. in regular warfare,

16

LACHES

the rest that you so kindly ask. It seems to me,
however, most proper that I, being so much younger
and less experienced than you and your friends,
should first hear what they have to say, and learn
of them ; and then, if I have anything else to suggest
as against their remarks, I might try to explain it
and persuade you and them to take my view. Come,
Nicias, let one or other of you speak.

nic. There is no difficulty about that, Socrates.
For in my opinion this accomplishment is in many
ways a useful thing for young men tovpossess. It is
good for them, instead of spending their time on the
ordinary things to which young men usually give
their hours of leisure, to spend it on this, which not
only has the necessary effect of improving their
bodily health<since it is as good and strenuous as
any physical exercise}_but is also a form of exercise

which, with riding, is particularly fitting for a free

_ citizen ; for only the men trained in the use of these

warlike implements can claim to be trained in the
contest whereof we are athletes and in the affairs
wherein we are called upon to contend.1_ Further, this
accomplishment will be of some benefit also in actual

_ battle, when it comes to fighting in line with a

number of other men;, but its greatest advantage
will be felt when the ranks are broken, and you find
you must fight man to man, either in pursuing some-
one who is trying to beat off your attack, or in

retreating yourself and beating off the attack of

another. Whoever possessed this accomplishment
could come to no harm so long as he had but one
to deal with, nor yet, perhaps, if he had several ;
it would give him an advantage in any situation.
Moreover, it is a thing which impels one to desire

17

PLATO

To.obrov’ Tas yap av pabdv ev rdw pdyxeoBau
> / ~ Ae is a \
emiBupnoece Kal tod .<éfs pabyparos tod rept
\ 7 ‘ ~ \ A \
Tas Tdfes, Kat Tatra AaBow Kal diAorysnPeis
> an ~
ev avtois éml av av TO mepl Tas OTpaTHyias Opyy-
gees Kal On SHAov O7t Ta TOUTWY Eexdpeva Kal
/ / ‘ > 4 A b ‘
pabnpara mavTa Kat emurndedpwara Kat Kara Kat
~ » > \ a ve ~ e
moAAod aéia avdpi pabeiv te Kal émirndedoa, wy
Kabnynoat av todro To udOnua. mpoobjcoper
> ~ if
8 at7@ od opixpav mpoobyKny, ote mdvTa avdpa
év moAdum Kat Oappadecddrepov Kal avdperdrepov
dv vowjoeey adrov adrod ovk dAlyw atry 1 émt-
OTH. py atyndowpev Se ecimetv, ef Kal Tw
opixpotepov Soke? elvar, OTe Kal evaynuwovearepov
~ A
évtaiba od xpi) Tov avdpa evoxnuoveotepov paive-
aba, od dua Kal Sewdtepos Tots exOpois pavetrat
dua THY evoynuoovvynv. ewol pev ovv, @ Avoai-
paye, Womep A€yw, SoKe? Te xphvar Suddoxew Tovs
veavioxous Tatra Kat dv & Soe? eipnxa: Adyntos
~ ¢
8’, el 7s mapa Tabdra Adyer, Kav adros 7Séws aKov-
cau.
1s
aa. “AM” éorr pev, & Nuxia, yaderdov Adyew
~ rs
mept otovoty pabijyaros, Ws ov xp) pavOdvew-
mavTa yap emioracba. ayabdyv Soxet eivar. Kat
67) Kal TO OmAuTiKOY TodTO, EL pev €oTe pabnpa,
7 A c / ‘ /, /
érep pact of SiSdcKxovres, Kal ofov Nixias Aéyeu,
xp?) ado parOavew: «i 8 EoTt pev pr) pdOnya,
GAN e€ararHow oi brioyvovpevor, 7) pabnuwa pev
Tuyxaver Ov, pq) pLevToL mavv omovdalov, Ti Kal
‘ ~ ; ~
dou Gv adro pavOdvew; Aéyw Sé rabra wept adrod
] / > / hid > A ~ > 4
eis Tae ArroPAdyas, ST olwat Ey TobTO, Et Ti Hy,
>

18

LACHES

another noble accomplishment; for everyone who
has learnt how to fight in armour will desire to learn
the accomplishment which comes next, the manage-
ment of troops ; and when he has got that and once
taken a pride in his work he will push on to attain

_ the whole art of generalship. (It is evident already
_ that all accomplishments and pursuits in the military

sphere are both honourable and valuable to a man,

_ either in acquisition or in practice; and this par-

DPT

ticular one may well be an introduction to them.
And we can make this addition—no slight one—to
its claims, that this science will make any man in-

ividually a great deal bolder and braver in war.
Nor let us disdain to mention, even though some
may think it a rather slight matter, that it will give
him a smarter appearance in the place where a man
should look smartest, and where at the same time
he will appear more terrible to the enemy because
of his smartness. So my opinion is, Lysimachus, as
I say, that we ought to teach this skill to our young
men, and I have told you my reasons for so thinking.
But if Laches has a different view to state, I shall
be as glad as anyone to hear it.

taco. Well, Nicias, I am loth to say of any sort of
accomplishment that it ought not to be learnt ; for
it seems good to know all things. And besides, if
this skill in arms is an accomplishment, as they say
who teach it, and as Nicias terms it, it ought to be

_ learnt; while if it is not an accomplishment, and

those who promise to give it are deceiving us, or if
it is an accomplishment, but not a very important
one, what can be the good of learning it? I speak
of it in this way from the following point of view :

I conceive that if there were anything in it, it would

19

183

PLATO

ovk av AcAnfévar Aaxedamovious, ofs oddév dAdo
pera ev TH Biw 7 tobro Cyreiv Kal éemitydevew,
bul a
6 te av pabdvres Kal emurndedoavres mAcovertotev
TOv d\Awy mept tov wdAcquov. et 8 éxetvous
> >
edeAjfer, add’ od tovrous ye Tods SidacKddous
> ~ / > \ ~ o > ~ / ~
adtob A€Anbev adro Tobro, Stu éxeivor paAvora TOV
‘EMjvev omovddlovaw emi trois tovwvrow Kal
> ~
67t Tap’ éxeivois av tis Tynbels eis TadTa Kal
‘ ~ »” a > bal > / /
mapa T&v dAAwy mieior’ av épydloito yphara,
A ‘ 9 oe
woTep ye Kal Tpaywdias TrounTns Tap’ Hiv TYWN-
eis. Tovydpror os av olnrar tpaywdiay Kadds
rrovety, odk E€wbev K’KAw Trepi THY “ATTuKiy Kata
\ »~ , > / 4 > >
Tas dAdas modes emderxvdprevos meprepyeTar, GAA
evOds Seipo déperat kal Toicd’ éemideikvuaw eikdTws.
tovs dé ev drAois paxopevous ey TovTovs dp@
Thv pev Aaxedaipova ayoupevovs elvar aBarov
t4
iepov Kal ovd€ akpw modi émBaivovtas, KtKAw
dé mepudvtas adriy Kal ma&ov wadAov émideckv-
a e
evous, Kai dAvora TovToLs of Kav adTol duodoyy-
cevav toAAods ody mpotépous eivar mpos Ta TOO
lA ” bo / 3 4 x\7 > \
mroA€mou. emeita, & Avoipaxe, ov mavu oXLyous eyd)
TovTwy Tapayéyova ev avTa TO Epyw, Kal op@ olot
> ” A ‘ > / e168 /
eiow. e€eotr 5€ Kai adtrobev jyiv oKxépacba.
a \ A > ‘ LA > > , /
dorep yap emirndes oddeis mebmrot’ evddKmos ‘ye-
yovev ev T@ TroAdum avip Tav TA OmAUTLKa em-
TndevodvTwY. KaiTot els ye TGAAG TavTa ex TOUTWwY
ot ovopacToL yiyvovTat, ek THY émiTndevodvTwv
¢ > e ” F A \ av
éxaota* ovTo. 0°, ws Eouke, Tapa Tovs aAdAous
ovtw afddpa «is totro SedvorvyyjKaow. ézel
Kal Todrov Tov Urnoirdewy, dv byets per? euod ev
>
TocovTw dxAw eedoacbe emiderxvdpevov Kat Ta

20

LACHES

not have been overlooked by the Lacedaemonians,
whose only concern in life is to seek out and practise
whatever study or pursuit will give them an advan-
tage over others in war. And if they have over-
looked it, at any rate these teachers of it cannot
have overlooked the obvious fact that the Lacedae-
monians are more intent on such matters than any
of the Greeks, and that anybody who won honour
among them for this art would amass great riches
elsewhere, just as a tragic poet does who has won
honour among us. And for this reason he who
thinks himself a good writer of tragedy does not
tour round with his show in a circuit of the outlying
Attic towns, but makes a straight line for this place
and exhibits to our people, as one might expect.
But I notice that these fighters in armour regard
Lacedaemon as holy ground where none may tread,
and do not step on it even with the tips of their
toes, but circle round it and prefer to exhibit to any
other people, especially to those who would them-
selves admit that they were inferior to many in the
arts of war. Furthermore, Lysimachus, I have come
across more than a few of these persons in actual
operations, and I can see their quality. Indeed, we
can estimate it offhand: for, as though it were of
set purpose, not one of these experts in arms has
ever yet distinguished himself in war. And yet in
all the other arts, the men who have made a name
are to be found among those who have specially
pursued one or other of them; while these persons,
apparently, stand out from the rest in this particu-
larly hapless fate of their profession. Why, this
man Stesilaus, whom you watched with me in that
great crowd as he gave his performance and spoke in

VOL. IV B2 21

D

ei

184

PLATO

peydAa mepi adbrob A€yovra a éXeyev, érepw8t eya
KadAAvov eeacduny [ev TH adnfeia}* as dAn bas
emiBerkvipevov ovx éxdvTa. mpooBahovons yap
Tijs vews ep’ 7 éreBareve mpds 6AKdda Twa, eudxero
éxwv Sopvdperravov, Siadepov 8) dmAov dre Kai
avros Tv GAAwy diadepwr. Ta pev odv aAdra
ovk afia Aéyew mepl Tavdpos, To 5€ addiopa TO
Tob Spemdvou Tod mpos Th Adyxn otov dméBn.
paxopevov yap avtob évéoxeTo mov ev Tois Tis
vews oxeveot Kal avreAdBero- eflAkev ody 6 Urnoi-
Aews BovAdpevos arroddca, Kai ody ofds 7 Hv:
% Sé vais tiv vady mapier. Téws pev ody Tap-
er ev TH vyi dvrexomevos Too Séparos: emel be
57) _TrapnpelBero % vads TH vabv Kal éméoma adrov
Tob Soparos € €XO}LEVOV, edict TO Sdpu dia THs xetpds,
ews dicpou Too orvpaKos dvrehaBero. v de
yedws Kal KpOTos b770 Tov €x Ths OAKddos emi Te
TO oxnpare avrod, Kal emrewd7) Baddvros Twos
NO Tapa. Tovs m00as avrod emt 78 kardorpwpa
dierar Tob déparos, TOT” 7797 Kal ot €k THs TpLy-
pous ovKere olot T qoav tov yéAwra KaTeXew,
Op@vTes aiwpovpevov- ek THs oAnddos 79 Sopu-
Spémavov éexeivo. tows pev ody ein ay Tt Tadra,
worep Nixias Aéyeu: ofs & obv eye evrerdynKa,
To.atr arta €otiv. 6 ovv Kal €€ dpyfs eimov, dru
cite ovUTw opuxpas agereias exet pana ov, etre pq)
ov pact Kal mpoorrovobvran avre elvae pabnpo, ovK
dfvov € emuyerpetv pavOdvew- Kal yap odv jot SoKe?, et
poev detAds TUS” av otouro abro* éisctacbat, Opacv-
Tepos av du’ adTo yevomevos emupavéotepos yevouro
1 éy rq ddnGeig secl. Schanz.
2 gird Burnet: adrov, abrév deiv mss.

22

i ee i

Eee ee ee ae

LACHES

those high terms of himself before us, I have watched
elsewhere giving a finer entertainment in the form
of a very real display that he made against his will.
The ship on which he was serving struck a transport
vessel, and he was using in the fight a combination
of a scythe and a spear—a remarkable weapon that
suited so remarkable a man. Well, the story of this
fellow’s doings is hardly of enough interest in the
main, but Pe must hear the upshot of his device of
a scythe fixed to a spear. As he was fighting, it
stuck somehow in the other ship’s rigging, and held
fast ; so Stesilaus pulled at it in the hope of getting
it free, but he could not, and the ships were passing
by each other. For the first moments he ran along
in his ship holding on to his spear; but as the other

ship sheered off from his and drew him after, still

ray ee ee

holding the spear, he let it slip through his hand
until he gripped the butt-end of the shaft. From
the crew of the transport there came laughter and
clapping at his posture, and when someone aimed
a stone at him which hit the deck near his feet, and
he let go the spear, the troops on the warship in
their turn could no longer restrain their laughter, as
they saw the notable scythe-spear dangling from the

rt. Now, there may perhaps be something
in this art of theirs, as Nicias argues, but at any rate
that is my impression of it, in the cases I have met

_ with. Hence, as I said at the beginning, whether it

be an accomplishment, and one of but little use, or
not an accomplishment, but-only supposed and pre-
tended to be such, it is not worth the trouble of
learning it. For indeed I hold that if a man who
was a coward believed that he possessed it, his only
gain would be in rashness, which would make his

23

PLATO

olos jv: ei dé avdpeios, dudAatropevos av tr
T&v avOpdrwv, ei Kal opixpov eEapdpror, weydAas
nn A ” SUL A i? /
dv SiaBodras toyew: éripBovos yap 1 mpoozoinats
Ths TovadTys emuoTHuns, WoT ei wn TL Oavpwacrov
a / a > ~ ~ mw ) ” > @
doov diadeper TH aperH TOV GAwyr, ovK eof drws
dv TUS puyou 70 KarayeAaaros yeveobar, dacKkwv
exew Tadray THY emaTnpiny. Tovavrn Tis Ewouye
doxe?, @ Avoipaxe, H Tepl robro TO pdbnua elvan
o7rovdy* xpi 8 omep cor e&€ apyis EAeyov, Kal
XwxKpatn Tovde pr) adiévar, aAAd SetoPar ovpBov-
Acvew Orn Soke? adr@ Tepi TOO mpoKepevov.

ar. "Ada Sdowar eywye, @ LdxKpares- kai
yap Garrep [eart ]* Tob Siaxpwvodvros Soke? por
deity 7; jv 7 Bovdy. ei pev yap ovvepepeotny Tue,
TTov dv Tod Towovrov Eder" viv Sé—THv evavriay
yap, ws opas, Adxns Nuxia €Bero—eb 87) exer
aKodoat Kal ood, TmoTépw Tot dv Spot iv ovpuldos el.

sa. Ti dai, & Avoipaye; omdrep’ av ot mdeiovus
errawdow huav, Tovrows péeAdreus xpjabar;

ar. Ti yap av tis Kat mrowot, & LwKpares;

> ‘ , so , o ” a
a. 7H Kai ov, & MedAnoia, ovtws av ovis;
Kav €l Tis mEept aywvias Too vieos aot BovdAy «in
Tl xpi) aoxeiv, dpa Tots mAcioow av Hudv zeiBo.0,
) €kelww sotis Tuyxdvow® bro traWoTpiBy ayal@
>
TETALOEUPLEVOS Kal HOKNKWS;
> / a. ft > /
MEA. ’Exeivw eikds ye, © UwKpares.
ae wee a ‘ t A f

sa. Ait@ dp’ av paddov meiBovo 7 TérTapow

otow Hiv;
1 éri secl. Ast: ér Heindorf.
2 rvyxdvo Bekker: tuyxdver Mss.

24

LACHES

true nature the more conspicuous ; while if he were
brave, people would be on the look-out for even the
slightest mistake on his part, and he would incur
much grievous slander; for the pretension to such
skill arouses jealousy, so that unless a man be pro-
digiously superior to the rest in valour he cannot by
any means escape being made a_laughing-stock
through professing to be so skilled. Such is my
opinion, Lysimachus, of the interest taken in this
accomplishment ; but do as I told you at the be-
ginning ; you are not to let our friend Socrates go,
but must request him to advise us according to his
judgement on the matter in hand.

Lys. Well, I ask it of you, Socrates: for indeed
our members of council, as it were, seem to me to
need someone who will decide between them. Had
these two agreed, we should not have required this
help so much ; but as it is—for Laches, you see, has
voted on the opposite side to Nicias—it is as well
that we should hear your view and see on which side
you cast your vote.

soc. What, Lysimachus? Are you going to join
the side which gets the approval of the majority of
us?

Lys. Why, what can one do, Socrates ?

soc. And you too, Melesias, would do the same?
Suppose you had a consultation as to what your
son’s exercise should be for a coming contest, would
you be guided by the majority of us, or by the one
who happened to have trained and exercised under
a good master ?

mex. By the latter, naturally, Socrates.

soc. Would you be guided by him alone rather
than the four of us?

25

185

PLATO

MEA. “lows.
> / a
Emorjuy ydp, otwar, Set KpiveoBar ard” od
ibe TO peMov Kahis KpiOjcecOar.
MEA. IIds yap | ov;
=a. Ovxobv kal vov xen Tmp@Tov cadre Tobro oKé-
paobat, <i éore Ts Tea TEXVUKOS mepl od Bov-
Acvopeba, 7) ov: Kal €L pev cor, € exelvy meBeoBau
vl OvTt, Tovs 8 ddous eav: ef 8 pu}, GAAov twa
{nretv. 7 mept opuxpod olecbe vuvi Kwduvevew
Kab ov Kal _Avoipaxos, aad’ ov mepl TovTov Too
KTHHATOS, 6 Tov bpeTepwv peyorov ov Tuyxaver ;
vicwy yep Tov 7 Xpnorav n Tavayrio. yEvoneveny
wal mas 6 olkos 6 TOO TaTpos ovTws olKknoeTat,
Omrotot dv Twes of aides yevwvrat.
MEA. ’AAn 04 Aéevers.
x0. IloAAjv dpa Set mpopnPiav adrod éyew.
MEA. Ildvu YE:
xa. [lds odv, 6 ey dpti EAeyor, Sepdaisbua av,
> > / / , ¢ Sal A > ,
et eBovAducba oxébacbar tis Hudv mepl aywviav
TeyviKwTatos; ap oby 6 wabwy Kal emiTndevoas,
@ Kai SddoKxaro. ayaboi yeyovdétes Hoav adrob
TOUTOU;
” a
MEA. “Ewouye doxe?.
> ~ , / + , koma BE
30. Odxodv ert mpdrepov, Tivos vTos ToUTOV [od |
lytobuev rods didacKkddAous ;
MEA. [Ids Ayes;
2. *O8e tows pwaAAov KarddnAov €orat. ov por
Soe? €& apyfs Hiv adpodoyfjoba, ti mor’ €ore
1‘ @ 7 \ , 2¢ reno
mept od Bovrevdpeba [Kat cxerTopucba |,” oorts Hudv
1 of secl. Jacobs.
2 kal oxerrdueba secl. Ast.

26

LACHES

MEL. Very likely.

soc. Yes, for a question must be decided by know-
ledge, and not by numbers, if it is to have a right
decision.

meL. To be sure.

soc. Then in this case also we must first consider,
in particular, whether anyone among us has expert
skill in the subject of our consultation, or not;
and if here is one who has, we must be guided by
him, though he be but one, and pass over the rest ;
while if there is not, we must look for somebody else.
Or do you think it a slight matter that you and Lysi-
machus have now at stake, and not that which is
really your greatest possession? For I take it that

ing as the sons turn out well or the opposite

will the whole life of their father’s house be affected,
depending for better or worse on their character.

MEL. Truly spoken.

soc. So it demands much forethought from us.

MEL. Certainly.

soc. How then—to take the case I suggested just
now—should we set to work if we wanted to con-
sider which of us was the most expert in regard to
a contest? Should we not pick him who had learnt
and practised, and had also had good teachers of
this particular skill ?

mex. I think so.

soc. And even before that, we should ask what
was this skill of which we are looking for the teachers ?

MEL. How do you mean ?
- soc. Perhaps it will be more easily grasped in this
form. I think we have not started with an agree-
ment between us as to what the thing is about
which we are consulting, in this question of who

27

PLATO

‘ \ 4 a / > ,
TeEXViKOS Kat TovToV Evexa SidacKdAous exTHoaTO,
/,
Kal OoTIS {17}.
/ > ~
ni. Od ydp, & LdKpartes, epi Tod ev SmAois wd-
~ ” \
xeo0a oKxoTodpev, elite xp7) adto Tovs veavicKous
pavOdvew etre pH;
xa. Ildvy pev otv, & Niuxia. aAX Grav zepi
td / > A
gappdKov tis Tov mpos dfbaduods oKomArat, etre
/
xp7) adro brraXdcihecbar cite uj, TOTEpOV Ole TOTE
elvat tiv BovdAnv mepi Tod PapudKov 7) mept Tov
opbaduar ;
~ > ~
ni. Ilepi rv dfbadudv.
“ \ ~
x2. Ovxodv Kat érav tram xadwov oxomArat Tis
el mpocooréov 7) uy, Kal OmdTE, TOTE TOV TEpL TOD
a / > > > \ lol ~
imtrov BovAeverar add’ od rept Tob xadwob;
> a
ni. “AAn O97.
> “~ er / id Ld Ld /
xa. Odxotv evi Adyw, Grav Tis TL Evexd Tov
~ ¢
oko, mepi éxeivov % BovdAr tvyxdver odca od
av > / > > > A a“ “A Lid LA
évexa é€oxomet, GAN od wept Tod 6 evexa- GAAov
eCnret.
> /
ni. “Avadyxn.
a ‘ A a
xa. Act dpa Kai tov ctpBovdrov oxoretv, dpa
Texviukds e€oTw eis exeivov Depameiav, od evexa
oKoTobmev 6* oKor7rodpev.
ni. Ilavu ye.
> ~ ~ ‘ A / a
xa. Odxotv viv dapyev rept pabiypatos oKxometv
Ths puyiis evexa THs TOV veavioxwv;
ni. Nad.
” ” € ~ \ \ “~
sa. Et tis dpa yua@v texvixos rept uyijs Pepa-
~ ~ ~ ‘
melay Kal olds te KaA@s TotTo Yeparredoar, Kal
étw dSiddoKaror ayaboi yeydvaci, TobTo oKenTéov.
AA. Ti dé, @ LwKpares; ovmw éewparxas avev
1 gxowoduev 6 Cron: cxorovpevo. MSS.

28

LACHES

us is an expert and to this end has resorted _
to teachers, and who not.

_ Nic. Why, Socrates, is it not fighting in armour
that we are considering, and whether it is a thing
to be learnt by young men or not?

soc. Of course, Nicias; but when someone con-
siders whether a medicine is to be used as an eye-
salve or not, do you think that this consultation is
about the medicine or about the eyes ?

nic. About the eyes.

soc. And when one considers whether a horse is
to be bridled or not, and at what time, I presume
one takes counsel about the horse, and not about the
bridle ?

nic. True.

soc. And in a word, when one considers a thing
for any purpose, the consulting is in fact about the
end one had in view to start with, and not about
the means to be used for such end.

nic. Necessarily.

soc. So we must consider our adviser too, and ask
ourselves whether he is a skilled expert in the treat-
ment required for the end which is the ce: Bei of
our consideration.

nic. Certainly.

soc. And we say that our present subject is an
accomplishment studied for the sake of young men’s
souls >

nic. Yes.

soc. So what we have to consider is whether one
of us is skilled in treatment of the soul, and is able
to treat it rightly, and which of us has had good
teachers.

Lacu, But I say, Socrates, have you never noticed

29

186

Q

PLATO

didaoKdAwy TEXVLKWTEpoUs ‘yeyovdTas eis Evia 7
pera. SidacKdhey ;

=n. "Eywye, & ® Adyns- ols ye od ovK ay eBéAous
moredoat, et paiev ayabot elvau _Snpoupyot, a Ha,
Tl go Tis adTa@v TéXvS epyov Exovev emidetEae €d
elpyacpevor, Kal év Kal TAciw.

AA. Todro pev adnOA Aéyets.

x0. Kat quads dpa deci, ® Adyns Te kat Nixia,
€7r€L1) Avoipaxos Kal MeAnoias. vels ovpBovAny
mapexaAcoarny Has tmept Tot vidow, mpoBupov-
prevot adtoiv dT apiotas yevéoBar Tas uyxds, et
pev dapev exew, éemidei€ar adtois Kai dudacKdAous
oirwes Typav yeyovaow, <ot>' abrot mp@rov* ayaboi
ovres Kat Toa véwv TeBeparreuKdres puxas
emevra. Kat pas diddgavres paivovras* H et Ts
Hav abr&v éavt@ diddoKadrov pév od dor yeyo-
véevat, add’ obv epya avros abtod yes etretv Kal
emdeifar, tives "AOqvaiow 7 n Tav Ecvv, 7 SobAot
7 eAcvepor, dv éxetvov oporoyoupeves dyaboi
yeyovaow: ei S€ pndev jyiv tovtrwy strdpyxet,
aAXous KeAevew Cnreiv Kal ur) ev éeralpwv avdpav
vigor Kwduvevew Siadbeipovtas THV peyloTnv airiav
exew m0 THY oiKeloTdTwY. eya pev ovV, @
Avoipayé te kal MeAnoia, mp@ros mepi euavtod
Aéyw ort SiddoKadds por od yéyove TovTov Tépt.
Kaitou emibuid ye Tob mpdypwaros ék véou ap&dpe-
vos. GAAad Tots pev codiotais odKk exw TeAety
pucbovs, olmep povor emnyyéeAdovTd pe ofot 7°
elvat trovfoa Kaddv te Kayabdv: adros 8 ad

1 ot add. Bekker.
2 prov Stephanus: mp@roi Mss,

30

LACHES

how some people have become more skilled in certain
things without teachers than others with them ?

soc. Yes, I have, Laches; people, that is, whom
you would not care to trust on their mere statement
that they were good practitioners, unless they could
put forward some example of their personal skill—
some work well carried out—not in one only, but
several cases.

LacH. That is truly spoken.

soc. We also, therefore, Laches and Nicias—since
Lysimachus and Melesias have invited us to a con-
sultation on their sons, whose souls they are anxious
to haye as good as possible—should bring to their
notice what teachers we have had, if we say that we
have any to mention, who being themselves good to
begin with, and having treated the souls of many
young people, taught us also in due course and are

own to have done so. Or if any of ourselves says
he has had no teacher, but has however some works
of his own to speak of, and can point out to us what
Athenians or strangers, either slaves or freemen, are
acknowledged to owe their goodness to him, let him
do so. But if there is nothing of the sort to be found
amongst us, let us bid them look elsewhere ; for we
cannot run a risk with our good friends’ children
where we may ruin them, and so bring upon us the
most grievous of accusations from our nearest and
dearest. Now I, Lysimachus and Melesias, am the
first to avow that I have had no teacher in this
respect; and yet I have longed for such lessons
from my youth up. But I have not the means to
pay fees to the sophists, who were the only persons
that professed to be able to make me a complete
gentleman ; and to this moment I remain powerless

31

187

PLATO.

e a A TA > ~ , > aq ,
evpety Thy Téexvnv aduvaT@ ert vuvi. ei 5é Nuxias
/ Md
7 Adxns edpynKev 7) peudOnxev, odk av Pavudoare
‘ ~
kal yap xpjpaow éeuod duvaturrepor, wate pabeiv
> a” ‘ a /, e ”
map dAdwv, Kat apa mpeoBdtepor, Wore 707
Ld ~ ~
evpynKkevat. SoKxodoar 57 por duvartot eivas madedoat
avOpwrov: od yap av mote ade@s amedpaivovTo
TEpt emiTnSevpaTwY véw ypnoTa@v Te Kal Tovnpar,
> A A ~ \ \
ei pn) avtrots émiotevoy ikav@s «idévat. Ta bev
> »” ” 4, 4, a \
oty dA\a éywye tovrois moretw: dtr Se dia-
, > / > 4 ~ s > ‘
depeobov adAAnjAow, eBavpaca. todto oby cov €yw
> / > / / ” / \
avréopat, @ Avoiwaxe, Kabamep apte Adyns pH
> / /, > ~ 4, > ‘ > cod ‘
adicoBai ce euod SvexeAcvero aGAAa epwrdy, Kat
> A ~ , / ‘ > /, ,
eyw viv mapakeAcvopat cor pur apicobar Adynros
i , > re ~ 4 Lf e A
pnde Nuxiov, add’ épwrdv Aéyovra, tt 6 pev Lw-
~ >
Kpdrns od dnow énatew rept rod mpdyparos, odd
c A > a e / ¢e ~ > a /
ixavos elvar dvaxpivas omdrepos tua@v adnOA A€yee
ovTe yap evpeTis ovTe pablnrijs ovdevos Trept TOV
4 / \ > > / \ ,
TowovTwy yeyovevars od 8’, ® Adyns Kat Nuxia,
elmetov tiv éxdrepos, tive 87 Seworarw ovy-
~ A a ,
yeyovatov Tepl THs TOV véwv Tpodis, Kal mdoTEpa
>
pabdvre mapa tov éemictacbov 7» adtw e€eupdvte,
\ > A / / ¢ / c / ‘
Kal ei pev pabdvre, Tis 6 SiddcKados ExaTépw Kal
, ” ¢ / > - > ba) \ 2. Oe
tives GAAow opotexyvor adbrots, wv’, av pa div
~ ~ >
axoAn 7 bro TaV THs moAews TpaypydaTwr, er
exelvouvs twuev Kal TelOwuev 7 Swpois } Xxapiow 7
; ~ ~ ‘ ~
dphorepa emripeAnOjvar Kal TOV yweTepwv Kat TOV
dpetéepwv maidwy, dmws py KaTacxvvwot Tovs
aitav mpoydovouvs dpatAo. yevopevor: ef 8 adrol
~ / /,
edperal yeyovdre Tod Towovrov, Sdére mapdderypa,
32

LACHES

to discover the art myself. But I should not be
surprised if Nicias or Laches has discovered or learnt
it: for they have more means at their command to
enable them to learn from others, and they are also
older, and have had time to discover it. Indeed, I

them as able to educate a man; for they
would never declare their minds so freely on pursuits
that are beneficial or harmful to a youth unless they
felt confident that they had the requisite knowledge.
And I have entire confidence in them myself, except
that I wondered at their differing from each other.
I therefore make this counter-request of you, Lysi-
machus: just as Laches urged you a moment ago
not to release me but to ask me questions, so I now
eall upon you not to release Laches or Nicias, but
to question them in these terms: “‘ Socrates says that
he has no understanding of the matter, and that he
is not competent to decide which of your statements
is true; that he has never been either a discoverer
or a learner of anything of the sort. But you,
Laches and Nicias, are each to tell us who is the
cleverest person you have heard on the upbringing
of youth; whether you have knowledge of it by
learning from someone or by discovering it your-
selves ; and if you learnt it, who were your teachers
respectively, and what other colleagues they had :
in order that, if you are not at leisure through the
demands of public business, we may go to them and
induce them either with gifts or good turns or with
both to undertake the care of our and your children
together, and so prevent them from turning out
knaves and disgracing their ancestors. But if you
have made the grand discovery yourselves, give us
an instance to show what other persons you have

33

PLATO

tivo 78n dAAwv émyseAnberres ex davrAwv Kadovs
te Kayabovs eroujoare. ei yap vov mp@rov dp-

B feo8e madevew, oxoretv xp} py obk ev 7 Kapi
bpuiv 6 Kivduvos Kwdvvednrat, aAd’ ev rots vieow TE
Kai ev Tois TH didwy matol, Kal arexv@s TO Aeyd-
pevov Kata THY Tapoysiay div ovpBalvyn ev mibw
” Kepapeia yryvouern. Aéyete odv, TL ToUTwWY 7)
pare tuiv brdpxyew Te Kal mpoojKew, 7) ov date.
tatr’, ® Avoiwaye, map’ adtav avvOdvov te Kal
pr peBiet rods avdpas.

C ar. Kadds pev’ ewouye Soxe?, & avdpes, Lw-
Kparns Aéyew: «i S5€ Bovdopevois tuiv ori epi
T&v ToovtTwv epwracbai tre Kai Sddvar ddyor,
adrovs 81) xpr) yryvwoKew, & Nexia re kal Adyns.
€uoi pev yap Kat MeAnoia rHde SHAov re HdopEevors
dv ein, et mavrTa, & Lwxpdryns éepwrd, ebédo.te
Adyw dieEcévar’ Kai yap && apyfs evredBev Hpyouny
Aéywyv, rt eis cvpBovdjy 81a Taba buds mapaxadre-
cayev, OTL weweAnkevas byiv ryovpeba, ws e€iKds,
Tept Tav TovovTwr, Kat GAAws Kal érevd2) of mai-

D des div dAiyou womep of Huerepor HAiKiay Exovar
mrawWevecIar. ef odv tuiv pr Te Siaddper, eimare
Kal Kowh peTa LwKpdtovs oxeyacbe, didSovres Te
kat dSexopuevor Adyov map’ aAdAjAwv: ed yap Kai
tovTo Aéyer dde, Tt mEpi ToD peyioTov viv Bov-
Acvopeba tav ayerépwv. add opare et Soxei
Xphvat ovTw Toveiv.

nt. 7Q Avoiwaye, Soxeis pot ws dAnbads Lwxpary
E rarpoley yuyvdoxew pdvov, adt@ S od avyyeyo-

1 Lit. ‘ on the Carian slave.”
2 i.e. on a large instead of a small piece of work, in

34

LACHES

succeeded in changing, by your care of them, from

knaves to honest gentlemen. For if you are now
going to make your first attempt at educating, you
must beware lest you try your experiment, not on
a corpus vile,’ but on your sons and the children of
your friends, and you prove to be a mere case, as
the proverbial saying has it, of starting pottery on
a wine-jar.2 So tell us what you claim, or do not
claim, as your resources and acquirements in this
kind.” There, Lysimachus, demand that from these
good persons, and do not let them off.

tvs. To my mind, good sirs, these remarks of
Socrates are excellent: but it is for you, Nicias and
Laches, to decide for yourselves whether it suits
you to be questioned and offer some explanation on
such points. For I and Melesias here would cer-
tainly be delighted if you would consent to expound
in detail all that Socrates puts to you in his ques-
tions : as I began by saying at the outset, we invited
you to consult with us just because we thought, very
naturally, that you had given serious consideration
to this kind of thing, especially as your boys, like
ours, are almost of an age to be educated. Accord-
ingly, if it is all the same to you, discuss it now by
joint inquiry with Socrates, exchanging views with
him in turn: for it is a particularly good remark of
his that we are consulting now about the greatest
of all our concerns. Come, see if you consider that
this is the proper course to take.

nic. Lysimachus, it looks to me, in very truth, as
though you only knew Socrates at second hand—
through his father—and had not conversed with him

which a beginner’s mistake would be less costly. Cf. Gorg.
514 E.

35

188

PLATO

vévat GAN’ 7 mavdt dvtt, el cov ev Tots Sypdrats
peTa TOO matpds aKxorovldv émAnoiac€é cou 7 ev
icp@ 7 ev dAAw Tw ovAdOyw TaV SyuoTtSv* ézred7)
S€ mpecBdrepos yéeyovev, odK evTeTUXnKwS TH
avdpi diAos ef.

ar. Ti pddwora, & Nixia;

ni. OU pou Soxets cidévar dt, ds av eyytrata
Lwepdrous 7 [Ady Bomep yéver |* al mAnovdly
diaAeyouevos, dvdyaen att@, eav apa Kal mepl
aAXov Tov Tporepov dipEnras SiadéyeoBau, pa
maveoar b7r0 Tovrov TrEpLar/opEvov TO Adye, amply
av epréon eis TO SiSdvau rept adrood Adyov, ovTwa
tpomov vov te CH Kal évTwa TOV mrapeAnAvbora Biov
BeBicoxer: ereoav 8 euTreon, OTL ov mporepov
abrov adrcet LwKparys, mpl dy Bacavion tatra.
ev TE Kal Kadas dmavra. eyo de ouvnOns Té
ett T@OE Kal old” ort dvdyien bad TOUTOUV maoxew
Tatra, Ka éru ve abros ott metoopae ratra
ofda* yaipw ydp, @ Avoipaxe, TO avdpi rAnoalwv,
Kat oddev olpau Kakov elvat TO drropupynjoKecbat
6 Tt pa) KaA@s 7) TeTroujKapev 7) Trovodpev, GAN’ eis
TOV emrevra, Biov mpopnbéotrepov avayKy elvau Tov
Tatra [1 pevyovTa, GAN’ eOédovra. KaTa 70 Too
UeAwvos Kad afvodvra. pavOdvew Ewomrep av fH,
Kal p7) oldpevov adr@ TO ‘yhpas voov Exov Tpoo-
veva. €uol ev odv ovdev anfes odd ad andes
b770 UwxKpdrous Bacavilectat, aANG. Kat mdAat
oxedov TL qymorduny, Ore o¥ Tepl TOV petpaKkiwv
Hiv 6 Adyos écorro LwKpdrovs mapovtos, ada

1 \6yw dorep yéver secl. Cron.

36

i I i i a | ld ee

7

Gwe -, a oe

LACHES

personally except in his childhood, when you may
have chanced to meet him among the people of his
district, accompanying his father at the temple or
at some local gathering. But you have evidently
not yet had to do with him since he has reached
maturer years.

Lys. How are you so sure of that, Nicias ?

nic. You strike me as not being aware that, who-
ever comes into close contact with Socrates and has
any talk with him face to face, is bound to be drawn
round and round by him in the course of the argu-
ment—though it may have started at first on a quite
different theme—and cannot stop until he is led into
giving an account of himself, of the manner in which
he now spends his days, and of the kind of life he has
lived hitherto; and when once he has been led into
that, Socrates will never let him go until he has
thoroughly and properly put all his ways to the test.
Now I am accustomed to him, and so I know that
one is bound to be thus treated by him, and further,
that I myself shall certainly get the same treatment
also. For I delight, Lysimachus, in conversing with
the man, and see no harm in our being reminded of
any past or present misdoing : nay, one must needs
take more careful thought for the rest of one’s life,
if one does not fly from his words but is willing, as
Solon said,! and zealous to learn as long as one lives,

‘and does not expect to get good sense by the mere

arrival of old age. So to me there is nothing unusual,
or unpleasant either, in being tried and tested by
Socrates ; in fact, I knew pretty well all the time

; _that our argument would not be about the boys if

1 Fr. 10 ynpdoxw & alei woddd didacxépevos, “ I grow old
ing ever more and more ”’; see below, 189 4.
37

PLATO

C mepi judy aitdv. omep ody Aێyw, 70 bev. nov
ovdev KwAver LwKparer ovvovarpiBew 6 oTrws odros
BowAerau Adynra 5é révde dpa érws exer wept TOB
TOLOUTOV.

AA. ‘AmAoby Toy enor, ® Nixia, wept Adywv
€oriv: ei Se BovAc, ody amdobv, ada SumAobv.
Kal yap av Sogauyut TH irddroyos elvar Kal ab
praddoyos. orav pev yap aKovw dvdpos mept
dperis Suaheyouevov 7) n mepl Twos codias oi ws dAn bas
ovTos avdpos Kal dfiou | TOV Ady & dv déyen, Xalpw

D izepduas, Dedspevos apa Tov TE Aeyorra eal Td.
Acyopeva, Ott mpémovrTa aAAjAows Kal appdrrovTa
€oTt’ Kal Kopd poor Soxet _povaucds O Towbros
elvat, dppoviay KadXiorny Tippoopevos: od Avpay
odde mauduas 6 opyava, GANG. TH Ovee [CFv 7 Tpwoopevos
ob)! avros abrod TOV Biov ‘otudevov Tots Adyous
mpos Ta €pya, ateyv@s Swpioti adr’ ovK tart,
olopat dé ovde ppuytort ovde Avd.ort, adn’ iI7ep
povn “EAAnuicy éorw dppovia. 6 pev obv Towodros

E xaipew pe trove? dbeyyouevos Kai Soxeiy dTwodv
girddAoyov elva- ottw odddpa amodéxouat map’
avrob Ta Aeyopueva: 6 5€ Tavavtia TovTov mpaTTwY
Aue? pre, Gow av Sox dpyewov Aéyew, Tooodrw
pGdXov, Kat move? ad Soxeiv eivas piadAoyov. Lw-
Kpdatous 8 éyw Tav pev Adywv odK Eurrerpds €tpu,
aAAa mpdotepov, ws €ouxe, TOV Epywv emeipdbny, :
Kal éxet adrov edpov aéiov dvta AoOywv KaA@v Kal

1 ¢qv jpuocuévos of secl. Badham.

1 Laches plays with the two meanings of az\otv—*I am
single - minded (simple, straightforward) in such matters,
that is, I should rather say, double-minded.”

2 The different modes or scales in Greek music were

38

LACHES

Socrates were present, but about ourselves. Let me
therefore repeat that there is no objection on my
part to holding a debate with Socrates after the
fashion that he likes; but you must see how Laches
here feels on the matter.

tacu. I have but a single mind, Nicias, in regard
to discussions, or if you like, a double rather than a
single one. For you might think me a lover, and yet
also a hater, of discussions: for when I hear a man
discussing virtue or any kind of wisdom, one who is
truly a man and worthy of his argument, I am ex-
ceedingly delighted; I take the speaker and his
speech together, and observe how they sort and
harmonize with each other. Such a man is exactly
what I understand by “ musical,’—he has tuned
himself with the fairest harmony, not that of a lyre
or other entertaining instrument, but has made a
true concord of his own life between his words and
his deeds, not in the Ionian, no, nor in the Phrygian
nor in the Lydian, but simply in the Dorian mode,”
which is the sole Hellenic harmony. Such a man
makes me rejoice with his utterance, and anyone
would judge me then a lover of discussion, so eagerly
do I take in what he says: but a man who shows the
opposite character gives me pain, and the better he
seems to speak, the more I am pained, with the
result, in this case, that I am judged a hater of
discussion. Now of Socrates’ words I have no ex-
perience, but formerly, I fancy, I have made trial of
his deeds ; and there I found him living: up to any
associated with different moral feelings. The Dorian was
most favoured, as having a manly, stately character: the
Ionian was more passionate and contentious. The Phrygian

and Lydian were foreign modes, on the character of which
there were various opinions. C/. Rep. 398-99.
39

PLATO

189 wdons mappyoias. i odv Kal tobdro exer, ovp-

BovXro > 5 , ‘ =f.) > Bal bd] / € \
par Tavdpi, Kat ydvor av e&eraloiunv tro
~ 4 ‘ b nn > / / > ‘
Tov To.wovTov, Kal ovK av axoiuny pavOdvwr, adda
kal €y® TH UoAwvi, Ev wovov mpoodrAaBayv, ovyywp@-
/ \ A 4, 297 ec 4
ynpackwv yap 7oAda diddoKecBa €béAw bro xpn-
oray peovoy. _ Tobro yap jot ovyxapelto, ayabov
Kai adrov elvat Tov dddoKador, t iva pw) Svopabis
paivwpar dndas pavOaverv a de veuTepos 6 dda-
oKwv €oTar H pnmw ev ddén dv 7% Te aAAo TeV
TovovTwy éxwv, ovdey por péeAct. col odv, @
Leicpares, eye emayyeMopar Kat dddoKew kat
eAeyxew € Ee O Tu av BovAn, Kat pavOdvew ye 6 Tt
ad eye olda- bre od Tap’ epot SidKevoar az”
exetvns TIS 7eépas, 4 per” euod ovvovexwdvvevoas
Kal edwkas oavTod meipay apeTis, 1) p x xp?) 5Sdvau
Tov péAdovra Sucates ddoew. réy’ obv 6 ri cou
dirov, pndevtiv Auerépay Akiay dbrdAoyov
TOLOULLEVOS.
> ‘ ¢€ / e ” 3 , A
xn. Od ta duerepa, ws Eouxev, airiacduefa pr
OPK aoe elvar kal ovpPovAevew Kal ovoKxomeiy.
> v2 , C2 > / bid
AM TpLeTEpov 57) €pyov, é Uaxpares” eva.
ve Ge eyuye Hav tinue’ oKdmer odv dvr” €wod
imép Tov veaviokwy, 6 Tt deducba rapa Tavb€
muvOdveobar, Kal ovpBovrAeve Svadeyopevos Tovrots.
> \ \ A ‘ > / ” \ \ \
eya pev yap Kai émiAavOdvopar 7dn Ta ToAAa dia
\ ¢ n a ” ee Ei, \ a aN
THY HAcKkiav dv av diavonP é€pécbar Kai ad a av
akotow: eav Sé pera€d ddAow Adyou yevwvrar, od
mdvu péeuvnpar. tyets odv Adyere Kai Suekire
mpos vuas atvrovs mepi dv mpovleucba eyd 3°

1 This instance of Socrates’ intrepidity (at Delium, ¢/.
above, 181 8B) is more fully described by Alcibiades in the
Symposium (221).

40

LACHES

fine words however freely spoken. So if he has
that gift as well, his wish is mine, and I should be
very glad to be cross-examined by such a man, and
should not chafe at learning; but I too agree with
Solon, while adding just one word to his saying: I
should like, as I. grow old, to learn more and more,
but only from honest folk. Let him concede to me
that my teacher is himself good—else I shall dislike
my lessons and be judged a dunce—but if you say
that my teacher is to be a younger man, or one who
so far has no reputation, or anything of that sort,
I care not a jot. I therefore invite you, Socrates,
both to teach and to refute me as much as you
please, and to learn too what I on my part know;
sueh is the position you hold in my eyes since
that day on which you came through the same
danger with me,1 and gave a proof of your own
valour which is to be expected of anyone who
hopes to justify his good name. So say whatever
you like, leaving out of account the difference of
our ages.

soc. You two, it seems, will give us no ground for
complaint on the score of your not being ready
to join both in advising and in inquiring.

tys. No, but the matter now rests with us, Socrates;
for I venture to count you as one of us. So take my
place in inquiring on behalf of the young men;
make out what it is that we want our friends here
to tell us, and be our adviser by discussing it with
them. For I find that owing to my age I forget the
questions I intend to put, and also the answers I
receive ; and if the discussion changes in the middle,
my memory goes altogether. Do you therefore dis-
cuss and elucidate our problem among yourselves ;

4]

190

PLATO

dovoouat Kat axovoas ab pera. MeAnoiov robd«
Toujow TovTo 6 Te av Kal dpiv doxj}.

xa. Ilevordéov, & Nexia re kat Adyns, Avowysdyes
Kal Mednoig. a peev ody viv xy EME XELPNOOILEV
oKorrety, tives ot diddoKador Hiv Tis Touavrns
maudetas yeyovacw 7 Tivas dAAous BeAtious 7re-
TounKapev, laws prev ov KaK@s exer e&eTrdlew Kai
Ta Towatra Huds adrovs: aA\’ ofuar Kal 4 Towdde
ones els Tavrov péper, oxedov S€é Tt Kal waddAov
ef a apxis ely av. el yap TUyYdvopey emLoTdpevot
orovoby mépt, OTt Tapayevouevov tw BeéAriov
mouet éxelvo @- mapeyeveTo, Kat mpocért oloi Té
€opev adto moiety trapaylyvecOar éexeivw, diAov
ott avTd ye iopev TotTo, ob} mépr avpPovdAct av
yevoiuela ws av tis adto pdota Kal dpior dy
KTHjoatto. lows odv od pavOdveré pov 6 Tt A€yw,
dn’ de pdov pabicecbe. et TvyYdvopev emt-
oTdpevor, ore ops Tapayevowevn ogahuois BeA-
tlous movet exeivous ols mapeyevero, Kal mpooert
oloi té eopev Trovetv adriy mapayiyvecbat dupaoct,
diAov ote dw ye lopev adriy 6 Ti moT EaTW, Hs
Tepe ovBovdor av yevoipeba ws dv tis avrny
pgora. Kal dpiora. KTHOQLTO. €i yap pnd” avro
robo <ideipev, 6 6 ti mor eorw dys 7 6 TL eoTW
dKon, oXoAR a av ovpBovrot ye dEvot Adyou yevoieBa
Kal tarpot 7 mepl opbarAuadv 7 mept core, ovTiva.
Tpdmrov aKony 7 oxi KdMuor’ av KTHOaLTO TIS.

aa. “AdAn OF Aéyets, @ Lebkpares.

a. Ovxody, d & Aaxns, kal viv jas TWOE TapaKa-
Naspov els ovpBovdrjy, riy” av Tpomrov tots vicow
avrdav ape?) mapayevouevn Tats yvyais dwetvous
TOLACELEV ;

42

LACHES

and I will listen, and then with my friend Melesias
I will act at once upon whatever may be your
decision. '

soc. Let us do, Nicias and Laches, as Lysimachus
and Melesias bid us. Now the questions that we
attempted to consider a while ago—‘‘ Who have been
our teachers in this sort of training? What other
persons have we made better? ’’—are perhaps of
a kind on which we might well examine ourselves :
but I believe this other way of inquiring leads to the
same thing, and will probably also start more from
the beginning. For if we happen to know of such
and such a thing that by being joined to another
thing it makes this thing better, and further, if we
are able to get the one joined to the other, we
obviously know the thing itself on which we might
be consulting as to how it might be best and most
easily acquired. Now I daresay you do not grasp
my meaning. Well, you will grasp it more easily
in this way. If we happen to know that sight joined
to eyes makes those eyes the better for it, and further
if we are able to get it joined to eyes, we obviously
know what this faculty of sight is, on which we might
be consulting as to how it might be best and most
easily acquired. For if we did not know first of all
what sight or hearing is, we should hardly prove
ourselves consultants or physicians of credit in the
matter of eyes or ears, and the best way of acquiring
sight or hearing.

LacH. Truly spoken, Socrates.

soc. And you know, Laches, at this moment our
two friends are inviting us to a consultation as to the
_ way in which virtue may be joined to their sons’
_ souls, and so make them better ?

43

PLATO

aa. IIdvv Ye.

20. “Ap obv Tobrd y dmdpyew Se?, TO etSeva
6 ti ToT éorw apeTn; et yap tov B® dperiy
<iSeipev TO Tapamav Oo Ti ToTE Tuyxaver ov, Ti av
TpoTrov tourou avpBovrot yevoiueba orwoby, OTTws
av avTo KddAvora KTNOALTO ;

AA. Ovddéva, enouye Soxe?, & Led«pates.

x2. Dapev dpa, & Adyns, eidێvat ado 6 Tt eoTw.

AA. Dapev pevtor.

Otxodv 6 ye topev, Kav etzousev Sijrov Ti
€oTw.

aa. [lds yap ov; :

x2. M2 roivuy, & dpiote, wept dAns aperis «d-
Déws oxoreipeba: mA€ov ‘yap lows epyov" Gadd.
f€pous Twos Tépt TPATov lower, el ixavOs €xopev
mpos TO €idévat- Kal Huiv, ws TO €ikds, paav 7
oKedis Eorat.

aa. ’“AAN otrw roidpev, & Ueikpares, Ws od
Bovre.

xa. Ti odv av mpocdoineba tr&v ths dperis
pep@v; % diAov 81 Stu TobTo «is 6 Teivew SoKet
% €&v Tots dAo1s pabyois; SoKet S€ mov Tois
moAXois eis avdpeiav. H yap;

AA. Kai pada 87) otrw Sdoxe?.

xa. Toiro roivyy mp@tov eémiyeipnowpev, @
Aayns, <imeiv, dvdpeia ti mor éeoriv: Emeuvra pera
TobTo oKepopucba Kal dtw, Gv TpdTw Tots veavioKots
tapayevorto, Kal” Goov oiov te && emurndevpadtwv
Te Kal pabndreov mapayevéobar. adda meipd
eizretv 6 Aéyen, tt eoTw dvdpeta.

AA. Ov pd tov Aia, & Leskpares, ov xaremov
eimetv: ef yap tis Oddo ev TH Taker wevwv apdyve-
44

LACHES

acu. Yes, indeed.

soc. Then our first requisite is to know what virtue !
is? For surely, if we had no idea at all what virtue
actually is, we could not possibly consult with any-
one as to how he might best acquire it ?

tacu. I certainly think not, Socrates.

soc. Then we say, Laches, that we know what it is.

LacH. I suppose we must.

soc. And of that which we know, I presume, we
can also say what it is.

Lacu. To be sure.

soc. Let us not, therefore, my good friend, inquire
forthwith about the whole of virtue, since that may
well be too much for us; but let us first see if we are
sufficiently provided with knowledge about some part
of it. In all likelihood this will make our inquiry
easier.

LacH. Yes, let us do as you propose, Socrates.

soc. Then which of the parts of virtue shall we
choose? Clearly, I think, that which the art of
fighting in armour is supposed to promote; and
that, of course, is generally supposed to be courage,
is it not ?

Lacu. Yes, it generally is, to be sure.

soc. Then let our first endeavour be, Laches, to
say what courage is: after that we can proceed to
inquire in what way our young men may obtain it,
in so far as it is to be obtained by means of pursuits
and studies. Come, try and tell me, as I suggest,
what is courage.

LacH. On my word, Socrates, that is nothing diffi-
cult: anyone who is willing to stay at his post and

1 Here, and in what follows, “virtue” embraces the
accomplishments and excellences of a good citizen.

VOL. IV c 45

191

PLATO

,
o8at tods moAeuiovs Kal yun gdevyor, ed tof Sri
cal ”

avdpetos av ein.

za. Ed pev Aéyers, & Adyns: aA tows eyd
airtos, od} cadds cimav, 7d o& amoxpivacba ju}
todo 6 Siavoovpevos Hpdunv, aAd’ Erepov.

AA. [lds tobro A€yes, & LeKpares;

> \ 4 >A , a >

x0. "Eya dpdow, édv olds te yevwpa. av-
dpeids mov obTos, dv Kal ad A€yes, Os av ev TH TaEEL
pevwy pwaxntat Tots roAEpious.

AA. "Eyw yodv dri. ;

x2. Kai yap €yw. adda ri ad Ode, ds av devywv
paxntat Tots mroAepiows, GAA pr) pevwv;

aa. lds dedywvr;

za. “Oomep mov Kat LKvOar Afyovrar ody Frrov
devyovtes 7 SuwdKovtes pdxecOar, Kal “Opunpds ov
erawa@v tovs tod Awetov immovs Kpaimva par’
” 198, ” > \ LBM 4 tA > A
ev0a Kai év0a éfyn adbrovs éericracbat SiudKew Ade
peBeoba: Kai atdrov tov Aivetay Kata tob7 ev-
exwpiace, KaTa THY TOD PoBov éemiorHuny, Kat elrev
avrov eivat ujoTtwpa PoBouo.

. ~ Ss 7 ATE 4

AA. Kai caddis ye, & Ledbkpates* wept apydtwv
yap €Aeye: Kat od TO Tov UKvdav innéwy wépu
A€yets. TO pev yap immxov [ro éexeivwv] otrw

; \ are \ ’ SR; , 1
pdxerat, TO Sé€ OmAutiKov [76 ye TOV ‘EMyjvov],
ws eyw réyw.

za. [lAjv y’ tows, & Adyns, 76 Aaxedatpoviwv.
Aaxedaoviovs ydp gaow ev TlAaraais, émesd:)
mpos Tots yeppoddpo.s eyevovTo, odK eOédew pévov-

1 76 éxeivwv, 76 ye T&v "EAjvwv om. papyr. Arsin.

1 Jl. viii. 107-108. Socrates pretends to take the hero’s
epithet ‘“prompter of fright’’ (in the enemy) as meaning

46

-

LACHES

face the enemy, and does not run away, you may be
sure, is courageous.

soc. Rightly spoken, Laches; but I fear I am to
blame, by not putting it clearly, for your having
answered not the intention of my question, but
something else.

Lach. What do you mean by that, Socrates ?

soc. I will explain, so far as I can: let us take that
man to be courageous who, as you describe him
yourself, stays at his post and fights the enemy.

tac. I, for one, agree to that.

soc. Yes, and I do too. But what of this other
kind of man, who fights the enemy while fleeing,
and not staying ?

LacH. How fleeing ?

soc. Well, as the Scythians are said to fight, as
much fleeing as pursuing ; and as you know Homer
says in praise of Aeneas’ horses, that they knew
“how to pursue and to flee in fright full swiftly
this way and that way;” and he glorifies Aeneas
himself for this very knowledge of fright, calling
him “ prompter of fright.””!

Lach. And very properly too, Socrates; for he
was speaking of chariots; and so are you speaking
of the mode of the Scythian horsemen. That is the
way of cavalry fighting ; but with men-at-arms it is
as I state it.?

soc. Except, perhaps, Laches, in the case of the
Spartans. For they say that at Plataea, when the
Spartans came up to the men with wicker shields,

that he prompted fright in himself and his side, and so knew
all about the feelin

? i.e. they sinha fast at their posts in the ranks (above,
191 a).

47

PLATO

: .
Tas mpos atrovs pdxeobar, adda devyew, ered?)
oe eAvOnoav at i ra€ets TV Ilepody, dvactpepopevous
@orep inméas pdaxecOar Kat ovTw vwiKkioa. THY
exe’ paxny.

Aa. “Adn OA Aé€yeis.

2a. Todro toivuy aptt eAcyov, Ort eye airtos
pu) KaADS oe dmoxpivacbat, 6 ort od Kards 7) TPO
BovAdpevos yap cov mubécbar pr povov Tovs ev
TH OmAitiK@ avdpelovs, aAAa Kai tos ev TO

a A A ~

inmuk® Kat év ovpravtt T@ TroAcuiK@ elder, Kal

\ / ‘ > A / > ‘ ‘ ‘ >
p47) dvov Tovs ev TH TroAGuw, aAAa Kai Tods Ev
tois mpos THv OdAatrav Kwdvvois avdpeious ovTas,
Kal Ogo ye 7mpds vocoUS Kal Goot mpos TeEVvias 7
Kal mpos Ta moAuTiKa avdpetoi eiou, Kal Ere ad p11)

/ 7 \ tA > a_f > Ral ,
pdvov Got mpos Avras ayOpeiot ciow 7 ddfous,
aAAd Kal mos émOupias 7) 7dovds Sewvot pdxecar,
Kal peevovtes 7} dvactpépovres—eiat ydp mov Tues,
& Adyns, cat év tots tovovrois avdpetor.

aa. Kai odddpa, & LawKpares.

3 ~ > cal A 4 i / >

za. Odxotv avdpeion pev mavres odToi eciow,
> > c 4 > ¢ a c > > U4 c > >
GAN of pev ev dovais, of 8 ev Avmais, ot 8 &v
> ’ e : am , ‘\ > , /,
emOupiaus ot 8° ev ddBows tiv avdpelay KéKTHVTAL’
ot 8€ y’, olua, SevAtay ev rots adrois Tovrois.

AA. Ildvu ye.

7 nn e /, 4 ~ >

xa. Ti more dv éxdrepov TovTwr, Todro éemvvOa-
vounv. mddAw obv reip® cimeiv avdpeiay mpa@rov,
Ti dv ev maou TOvTOLs TavTOV eoTW* 7 OUTW KaTa-
pavbdves 6 A€yw;

AA. Od wav Tt.

1 In the final struggle at Plataea (479 B.c.) the Spartans
at first hesitated before the barrier of wicker shields opposed

48

Se ee eee ee

LACHES

they were not willing to stand and fight against
these, but fled; when, however, the Persian ranks
were broken, the Spartans kept turning round and
fighting like cavalry, and so won that great battle.!

acu. What you say is true.

soc. And so this is what I meant just now by
saying that I was to blame for your wrong answer,
by putting my question wrongly. For I wanted to
have your view not only of brave men-at-arms, but
also of courage in cavalry and in the entire warrior
class ; and of the courageous not only in war but in
the perils of the sea, and all who in disease and
poverty, or again in public affairs, are courageous ;
and further, all who are not merely courageous
against pain or fear, but doughty fighters against
desires and pleasures, whether standing their ground
_ or turning back upon the foe—for I take it, Laches,
there are courageous people in all these kinds.

LacH. Very much so, Socrates.
_ soc. Then all these are courageous, only some have

acquired courage in pleasures, some in pains, some
in desires and some in fears, while others, I conceive,
have acquired cowardice in these same things.

LacH. To be sure.
_ soc. What either of them? is—that is what I

wanted to know. So try again, and tell me first
what is this thing, courage, which is the same in all
of these cases; or do you still not comprehend my
meaning ?

Lacu. Not very well.

to them by the Persians; but by a supreme effort they broke
through and defeated the Persians by turning on them in
man-to-man combat. C/. Herod. ix. 61-2.

2 i.e. courage and cowardice.

49

192

PLATO

> > ,
za. "AM dde Adyw, dorep av ei Tdxos Hpw-
la ~
Twv Ti ToT’ €oTiv, 6 Kal ev TH Tpéxew TUyydver dv
cia ~ ~ ‘
Huw Kai ev TO KiBapilew Kal ev TH A€yew Kal ev
~ 4 . Ed a“ ‘ ,
T@ pavOavew Kai ev dAdAois ToAXois, Kai axedov Te
o> '§ , \ /, + 7 ” >
avTo KexTnpeba, od Kal mépt aévov Aeyew, H ev
Tais Tov Xetpav mpageow 7 i] oKeAdv 7 UI oropards
Te Kal dwvijs 7) Stavolas* 7 ody odTw Kal ad Aé€yets ;
AA. Ildvu ye.
,
xa. Ei rolvuy tis pe eportro: & LwKpares, Ti
Aéyets totro, 6 ev maaw dvopdles taxvTira
~ ,
elvat; eiroun’ dv adbt@, ote tiv ev dAtyw xpov@
~ ”
ToMa Siampattomevyy Svvapw TaxvTira eywye
~ g ‘ ‘
KaA® Kai wept dwviv Kat wept Spdpov Kal rept
> 4
TaAAa mavra.
AA. “Opbds ye od Acywv.
0. Tleipa 57) kal ov, @ Adyys; Thy dvpetay
ovTws e<imeiv, tis obca Stvayus 4 adr? ev 7d0Vv7
‘ > 7 ‘ > og ~ \ 2r é
kat ev Ady Kal ev dracw ols viv di) eAéyopmev
abriv elvar, éreita avdpela KéKAnrar.
AA. Aoxet toivuy pot Kaptepia tis elvae Tis
~ > /
poyfs, ef 7d ye Sia wavtwv [rep avdpelas |* repv-
Kos Sev eizretv.
cal >
"Aa pur Se7, el ye TO epwredpevov azroKpt-
~ 7 ~ /
votpeba Huiv adrois. Ttobdro Tolvuy Ewouye dat-
A ,
veTal, OTL OUTL TGGd ye, WS ey@mat, KapTEpta.
> , 7 , Se > 0 / ) E
avdpeia cor daiverat: Texpaipouar Se evOevde* axe-
Sov ydp 7 olda, & Adyns, 6te TOv mdavu Kaddv
TpaynaTwv yh od avdpeiav elvat.

‘

1 rept dvdpelas secl. Badham.
50

LACHES

soc. I mean in this way: suppose, for instance, I
were asking you what is quickness, as we find it in
running and harping, in speaking and learning, and
in many other activities, and as possessed by us
practically in any action worth mentioning, whether
of arms or legs, or mouth or voice, or mind: or do
you not use the word so?

tacu. Yes, to be sure.

soc. Well then, suppose someone asked me:
Socrates, what do you mean by this thing which
in all cases you term quickness? My reply
would be: The faculty that gets a great deal
done in a little time is what I call quickness, whether
in a voice or in a race or in any of the other
instances.

LacH. Your statement would be quite correct.

soc. So now try and tell me on your part, Laches,
about courage in the same way: what faculty is it,
the same whether in pleasure or in pain or in any
of the things in which we said just now it was to be
found, that has been singled out by the name of
courage ?

tacH. Well then, I take it to be a certain en-
durance of the soul, if I am to speak of the natural
quality that appears in them all.

soc. Why, of course we must, if we are each to
answer the other’s actual question. Now it appears
to me that by no means all endurance, as I conceive
it, can appear to you to be courage. And my
grounds for thinking so are these: I am almost
certain, Laches, that you rank courage among the
nobler qualities.

51

193

PLATO

AA. Ed pev ody toft 6tt Tv KadXorwvr.

22. Ovxodiv 7 pev peta dpovicews Kaptepia
Kady Kayaby ;

AA. Ilavu ye.

zo. Ti & per adpootyyns; od todvavtiov
tavTn BAaBepa Kai KaKodpyos;

AA. Nat.

x2. Kadov odv te djoets od elvat 7d Towodrov,
dv Kaxodpyov te Kat BAaBepov;

AA. Ovxouv Sixadv ye, & UdKpares.

xo. Ovdx dpa tiv ye Tovadrny Kaprepiay avdpeiav
Ouoroyrjoets civar, emevdymep od Kady eoTwW, a
5¢ avdpeia Kaddv €orw.

AA. “Adn OA Aéyets.

¢ / wy , A 4 ‘

xa. ‘H dpdvimos dpa Kaptepia Kata Tov gov
Adyov avdpeia av etn.

AA. "Eouxev.

xa. “Idwyev 87, 4 els ti ppdvysos; 7 % eis
4 A 4 7 ‘A A 4 ”
dmavTa Kat Ta peydAa Kal Ta opuKpa; olov et Tis
Kaptepe? avadickwy dpyvtpwv dpoviuws, €idas
6tt avadwoas mA€ov exTHoeTar, ToOTov avdpetov
KaAois av;

aa. Ma A’ odk Eywye. .

sa. "AAW olov et Tis iatpos wv, mepimAevpovia TOD
ev > 7 a“ »” 4s ‘ 4 ~
vidos exouevov 7 GAAov twos Kat Seopévov met
payetv Sodvar, put) Kdyrrrovro aAAa Kaprepot;

AA. O88’ Omworody 085” avrn.

xa. ’AA’ ev modduw KaptepotivTa avdpa Kat
> /, 4 , / > ,
eOdrovra pdxecbar, Ppoviuws Aoylopevov, €iddra

\ Qe / a” > ~ A > , A
prev Ott BonPycovow adAot adr@, zpos €Adrrovs Se

52

LACHES

tacu. Nay, among the noblest, you may be quite
certain.

soc. And endurance joined with wisdom is noble
and good ?

LacH. Very much so.

soc. But what of it when joined with folly? Is it
_ not, on the contrary, hurtful and mischievous ?

Lacu. Yes.

soc. And can you say that such a thing is noble,
when it is both mischievous and hurtful ?

LacH. Not with any justice, Socrates.

soc. Then you will not admit that such an en-
durance is courage, seeing that it is not noble.
whereas courage is a noble quality.

LacH. That is true.

soc. So, by your account, wise endurance will be
courage.

LacH. Apparently.

soc. Now let us see in what it is wise. In all
things, whether great or small? For instance, if a
_ man endures in spending money wisely, because he
knows that by spending he will gain more, would
you call him courageous ?

LacH. On my word, not I.

soc. Or what do you call it in the case of a
doctor who, when his son or anyone else is
suffering from inflammation of the lungs and begs
for something to drink or eat, inflexibly and endur-
ingly refuses ?

LacH. That is no case of it, in any sense,
either.

soc. Well now, when a man endures in war, and is
willing to fight,on a wise calculation whereby he knows
_ that others will come to his aid, and that the forces

VOL. IV c2 53

PLATO

kal davdoréepovs praxyetrat 7) wel” dv adbrds eorw,
eve 5€ ywpia exer KpeitTw, TodToV TOV peETA TIS
TovavTys Ppovijcews Kal TapacKeuns KapTepobvTa
avdpe.otepov av gains 7 Tov ev TH evavTiw
otpatotéom €0édovra troevew TE Kal Kap-
TEpEetv;
B aa. Tovevt@ evavTio, enorye Soxel, © LaKpares.
> ¢ , ME Le
AMa pea ddpoveorépa ye 1 TovTov ) 4
TOO 2 tice KapTepia.
AA. ’AAn OA Aéyets.
x0. Kai rov per” emtoriuns dpa imm«is Kapte-
‘ potvra ev immouaxia hrrov djoes avdpetov civat
] TOV avev emioTHunS.
AA. “Epouye Soxet.
C 2a. Kai Tov pera. opevdovyruciis H rokiKs 7
aAAns Twos Téxvns KapTepobyTa.
AA. Ilavu ye.
x2. Kai dcor dv ebédwow eis dpéap KataBaivov-
tes Kal KoAvpB@vtes Kaptepeiv ev TOUTW TH Epyw,
pn) Ovtes Sewvoi, 7H ev Tue GAAw TowvTw, dvdpevore-
pes proces Tay Tabra dewOv.
aa. Ti yap dy TIS Mo pain, @ LwoKpares;
42. Odder, elmep olowrd ye ovTws.
"AMG pay olwai ye.
2a. Kai pj zrov dadpoveotépurs ye, @ Adxyns,
ot Towobrot xwdvvevovat Te Kal KapTepodow 7 ot
peva Téxvyns adTo mpdatTovres.
AA. Daivovra.
pian Odxodv aicxpa ) adpwr ToNwa. we kal
Kaptépnois ev TO are epavn piv obca Kal
BAaBepa;
AA. Ildavu ye.
54

ae sae

ee ee

ee Soe

A Steet

Pee cee eh

LACHES

against him will be fewer and feebler than those
who are with him, and when he has besides the
advantage of position,—would you say of this man,
if he endures with such wisdom and preparation,
that he, or a man in the opposing army who is
willing to stand up against him and endure, is the
more courageous ?

LacH. The man opposed to him, I should say,
Socrates.

soc. But yet his endurance is more foolish than
that of the first man.

Lacu. That is true.
_ soc. So you would say that he who in a cavalry

fight endures with a knowledge of horsemanship is
less courageous than he who endures without it.

tacH. Yes, I think so.

soc. And he who endures with a skill in slinging
or shooting or other such art.

Lacu. To be sure.

soc. And anyone who agrees to descend into a
well, and to dive, and to endure in this or other such
action, without being an adept in these things, you
would say is more courageous than the adepts.

Lacu. Yes, for what else can one say, Socrates ?

soc. Nothing, provided one thinks so.

LacH. But I do think it.

soc. And you observe, I suppose, Laches, that
persons of this sort are more foolish in their risks
and endurances than those who do it with proper
skill.

Lacn. Evidently.

soc. Now, we found before that foolish boldness
and endurance are base and hurtful ?

LACH. Quite so.

55

PLATO

sa. ‘H 8€ ye dvdpeia wpodroyeiro Kaddv 7 |
elvat.

AA. ‘Quodoyeiro ydp.

xa. Niv 8 ad mdAw dapev exeivo 7d aicxpov,
Thy adpova Kaprépnow, avdpeiav elvar.

AA. ’Eoixapev.

x2. Kadds obdv cor Soxotpwev Aéyew;

aa. Ma rov A’, & ULwxpares, wot pev ov.

x2. OtdKn dpa mov Kara Tov odv Adyov SwpioTi

E 1)ppdopeba eye te Kal od, & Adyns: Ta yap épya
od ovpdwrvet juiv tots Adyos. Epyw pev yap,
ws €ouxe, fain av tis yas avdpeias peréyew,
Aoyw 8, ws eydpar, odk« av, et viv iudv axovceve
ee ae
’AdnOeorara A€yets.

xn. Ti otv; Soxet Kaddv elvar otrws judas ie
Keto0a;

aa. 08S’ drrwor.odbv.

xa. BovAer ody & A€youer wevPapeba 7d ye To-
ooSrov;

aa. To zotov 87 TobTo, Kal tim ToUTw;

194 30. T@ Adyw ds Kaprepetvy Kedever. ef ody
BovAer, Kal Huets ext TH Cyrice empeivwper te
Kal KapTEepynowper, iva Kat u1) HuU@v adTH 7 avdpeia
KatayeAdon, ott ovK avdpeiws adriv Cnrodpuev, ci
dpa moAAdKis adr?) 7) KapTépnois €oTw avdpeia.

AA. "Ey pev Eroysos, @ LdKpares, wr) mpoadi- —
oracbat: Kaito. anOns y’ eiui Tov ToLodTw Adywr:
GAAd Tis pe Kai piAovixia etAnde mpds Ta eipnueva,

B kai ws aAnOds ayavax7d, ei obTwot & vod x7)

56 :

LACHES

soc. But courage was admitted to be something
noble.

LacH. Yes, it was.

soc. Whereas now, on the contrary, we say that
this base thing—foolish endurance—is courage.

LacH. Apparently.

soc. Then do you think our statement is correct ?

LacH. On my word, Socrates, not I.

soc. Hence I presume that, on your showing, you
and I, Laches, are not tuned to the Dorian harmony :
for our deeds do not accord with our words. By
our deeds, most likely, the world might judge us
to have our share of courage, but not by our words,
I fancy, if they should hear the way we are talking
now.

LacH. That is very true.

soc. Well now, does it seem right that we should
be in such a condition ?

LacH. Not by any means.

soc. Then do you mind if we accept our statement
to a certain point ?

LacH. To what point do you mean, and what
statement ?

soc. That which enjoins endurance. And, if you
please, let us too be steadfast and enduring in our
inquiry, so as not to be ridiculed by courage herself
for failing to be courageous in our search for her,
when we might perchance find after all that this
very endurance is courage.

LacH. For my part I am ready, Socrates, to con-
tinue without faltering ; and yet I am unaccustomed
to discussions of this sort. But a certain ambitious
ardour has got hold of me at hearing what has been
said, and I am truly vexed at finding myself unable

57

PLATO

, > } ae > a ~ \ A ” ~
olds 7” eii cimeiv. voeiy pev yap emovye S0Kd
\ > , hd ” > i 7 @ »”
mept avdpeias 6 tT €atw, odK olda 8 dry pe apre
P>) / 7 Y AA 7 ~ Ao + ee ‘
eduyev, woTe un avdAdaBeiv tH Adyw adri Kal
elmety O TL €oTW.

32. Ovxodv, & dire, tov ayalov Kuvyyéernv
petabety xp) Kal 1) avévas.

AA. Ilavrdmact pev odv.

22. BovAa obv cai Nixiav tovde tapaxadAdpev
emt TO KUVnYEoLoV, El TL HUBV EvTOpwTEpds eoTW;

AA. BovAopa: tds yap od;

=a. “1 5, & Nexia, avdpdor pido yerpaloue-
vos ev Adyw Kal amropobtor BonOyoov, et twa exes
Stivapw. Ta pev yap 81) Huérepa Opas ws amopa:
ad 8 cindy 6 Te Hy avdpeiav eivar, Has TE THs
amropias €xAvoa Kat adbtos & voeis TH Adyw Pe-
Batwoat.

ni. Aoxeire toivuy pot mdAa od Kadds, @
Lw«pates, opilecOar tiv avdpeiav: 6 yap eye aod
* ~ / > / 4 > a
75n KaAds A€yovTos akijKkoa, TovTw od yxphabe.

22. Iloiw 87, & Nuxia;

ni. IloAAdKis axyjKod cov Aéyovtos, drt TabTa
3 46 a e ~ LA / “a de > On
ayalds Exaotos yudv, dmep sodds, & Sé apalrs,
tadra S€ Kakos.

20. "AAnOA pévror v7 Ata réyers, & Nixia.

A a a bid

NI. Odxodv eimep 6 avdpetos ayabds, diAov ott
copes €oTw.

sa. “Hxovoas, & Adyns;

a /

AA. "Eywye, kat od odddpa ye pavOdvw 6 déEyeu.

58

~~

or

ea ee

LACHES

to express offhand what I think. For I feel that I
conceive in thought what courage is, but somehow or
other she has given me the slip for the moment, so -
that I fail to lay hold of her in speech and state what
she is.

soc. Well, my dear sir, the good huntsman must
follow the hounds and not give up the chase.

LacH. Yes, indeed, by all means.

soc. Then do you agree to our inviting Nicias here
to join.in our hunt? He may be more resourceful
than we are.

LacH. I agree, of course.

soc. Come now, Nicias, and use what powers you
have to assist your friends, who are caught in a
storm of argument and are quite perplexed. You
see the perplexity of our case ; you must now tell us
what you think courage is, and so at once set us free
from our perplexity and give your own thoughts the
stability of speech.

nic. Well, for some time I have been thinking,
Socrates, that you two are not defining courage in
the right way; for you are not acting upon an
admirable remark which I have formerly heard you
make.

soc. What is that, Nicias ?

nic. I have often heard you say that every man
is good in that wherein he is wise, and bad in that
wherein he is unlearned.

soc. Well, that is true, Nicias, I must say.

nic. And hence, if the brave man is good, clearly
he must be wise.

soc. Do you hear him, Laches ?

LacH. I do, without understanding very well what
he says.

59

195

PLATO

30. "AN’ eye done pavOavew, Kat por SoKei
avip codiay Twa Thy avdpeiav Aéyeww.

AA. Ilotav, & LoKpares, codgiar;

xa. Ovxobv tévde tobro épwrds;

AA “Eywye.

"T6c on, avrg einé, @® Nexia, Tota oogia
dvSpcia & ay ein Kata Tov adv Adyov. od ydp Tov 7
ye avAnriKy.

NI. Ovdapds.

x0..Odd€ pv 7 KiBapioriKy.

NI. pee ofa.

°*AAAa. tis 57) atrn } Tivos emornEn 5

An Bde yey. obv opbas adrov epurds, a)
LewKpares, Kai elmer ye Tiva gnow adriy elvau.

NI. Tavrnv eye, 7) Adyns, Thy TOV dewav
Kal BappaAcuv emioTHunv Kal ev moAdum Kal’ év
Tots adMous amacw.

AA. ‘Qs drome. Aéyer, 2) Uaxpares.

a. IIpos Tl TOOT elmes Breas; & Adxns ;

AA. IIpos 6 tt; xwpis Syov aodia éoriv av-
dpetas.

x2. OvKovv dno ye Nexias.

AA. Od pévror wa Ala: rabrd tou Kai Anpet.

22. Odxoiv diddoxwuev adrov, ddAa pr Aowdo-
papev.

NI. Ovx, adAd pot Soxet, @ UwKpares, Adxns
emeBupretv Kame pavivar pndey A€yovra, Ort Kal
airds dprt Towodros pay.

/ ‘\ 7 /
AA. IIdvu pev obdv, @ Nexia, kal Teipdoopat,

ye dmopivat. ovdev yap Aéyets: emrel avriKa ev
Tats vooois ody of larpot ra Sewa emioravTa;

60

ateaiat

LACHES

soc. But I think I understand it: our friend
appears to me to mean that courage is a kind of
wisdom.

LtacH. What kind of wisdom, Socrates ?

soc. Well, will you put that question to your friend
here?

Lacu. I do.

soc. Come now, tell him, Nicias, what kind of
wisdom courage may be, by your account. Not that,
I presume, of flute-playing.

nic. Not at all.

soc. Nor yet that of harping.

nic. Oh, no.

soc. But what is this knowledge then, or of what ?

LacH. I must say you question him quite correctly,
Socrates, so let him just tell us what he thinks it is.

nic. I say, Laches, that it is this—the knowledge
of what is to be dreaded or dared, either in war or
in anything else.

LacH. How strangely he talks, Socrates !

soc. What is it that makes you say that, Laches ?

LacH. What is it? Why, surely wisdom is distinct
from courage.

soc. Well, Nicias denies that.

tacH. He does indeed, to be sure: that is where
he just babbles.

soc. Then let us instruct and not abuse him.
- nic. No, it seems to me, Socrates, that Laches
wants to have it proved that I am talking nonsense,
because he was proved a moment ago to be in the
same case himself.

LACH. Quite so, Nicias, and I will try to make it
evident. You are talking nonsense: for instance,
do not doctors know what is to be dreaded in dis-

61

PLATO

}) ot avdpetor SoKxodci cor emiotacba; 7 Tovs
iatpods ov avdpeiouvs Kareis;
Odd’ ézwortiody.

AA. OSE ye Tos yewpyods oluar. Kalror Ta
ye ev TH yewpyia Sewa odtor Symov emioravrat,
Kat of ddAow Snvovpyoi dmavres TA ev Tals adTaV
téxvais Sewd te Kal Oappadéa ioacw: adr’ ovdev
Tt waGAXov obrow avdpetoé eiow.

xa. Ti Soxe? Adyns Aéyew, @ Nuxia; €ouxe
pevrot Aéyew Te.

ni. Kai yap Ayer yé 71, od pevror adnbes ye.

xa. lds 87;

ni. “Ore olerar tods iatpods mAdov tu €idévat
Tept Tovs KdpvovTas 7) TO Uyvewov eimeiv oldov TE
Kal voo@des. of Sé Syjmov tooodrov pdvov icacw:
el S¢ Sewov Tw TobTd eoTt TO byraivew padAov 7
TO Kdpvew, Hy od TouTi, ® Adyns, Tods iatpods
erioracbat; 7 od mroAXois ole: ex Tis VocoU apLewov
elvat p1) avaoThvat 7) avacrivat; Toro yap «ime:
od maou drs awewov elvar Civ Kat od modAdois
Kpetttov TeOvdvas;

AA. Oiuor eywye TobTd ye.

Ofs otv reOvdvar AvowreAci, Tadra ole. Sewa
elvar Kat ols Civ;

AA. OvdK eywrye.

ni. “AAA robro 81) od SiSws Tots tarpots yeyveo-
cKew GAAw Twi Sypwovpy@ TrAnv TO TOV Sewav
Kal pi) Sewav emuornpove, dv ey avdpetov Kala;

xa. Karavoeis, & Adyns, 6 tt A€yer;
62

LACHES

ease? Or do you suppose that the courageous know
this? Or do you call doctors courageous ?
nic. No, not at all.
LacH. Nor, I fancy, farmers either. And yet they,
I presume, know what is to be dreaded in farming,
and every other skilled worker knows what is to be
dreaded and dared in his own craft; but they are
none the more courageous for that.
soc. What is Laches saying, in your opinion,
Nicias ? There does seem to be something in it.
nic. Yes, there is something, only it is not true.
soc. How so?
nic. Because he thinks that doctors know some-
thing more, in treating sick persons, than how to
tell what is healthy and what diseased. This, I
imagine, is all that they know: but to tell whether
health itself is to be dreaded by anyone rather than
sickness,—do you suppose, Laches, that this is
within a doctor’s knowledge? Do you not think
that for many it is better that they should never
arise from their bed of sickness? Pray tell me, do
you say that in every case it is better to live? Is
it not often preferable to be dead ?
LacH. I do think that is so.
nic. And do you think that the same things are
to be dreaded by those who were better dead, as by
those who had better live ?
tacH. No, I do not.
nic. Well, do you attribute the judgement of this
matter to doctors or to any other skilled worker
except him who has knowledge of what is to be
dreaded and what is not—the man whom I call
courageous ?
soc. Do you comprehend his meaning, Laches ?

63

PLATO

E aa. "Eywye, ort ye rods pdvreis Kadet Tovs

196

> ,
avdpelous: tis yap 51) aAAos eloerar OTwm dpewov
Civ 7 teOvdvar; Kaitou ot, & Nuxia, worepov dpo-
a / a
Aoyeis pavtis elvar 7) odte pavtis ovTE avdpeios;
‘ / / s w” , A A
ni. Ti dai; pavrer ad olee mpoonjKke: Ta Sewa
yeyypwoKew Kal Ta Bapparéa;
AA. "Eywye> tin, yap ddAw;
e ~
ni. “Qe ey A€yw modAd paddAov, db BéAriore:
4 a a
eel wdvTw ‘ye TA ONpeta povov Set yryvwoKew TV
eoouevwy, elite Tw Odvatos elte voaos €ite amoPoAn
/ ” ” , ” “ Ag,
Xpnuatwy €orat, elre vikn elite HrTa 7 ToA€uov
”“ ‘ ” A > , @ / ”
q Kat aAns Twos aywvias: oO Te dé Tw Gpewov
TovTwy 7 mabeiy 7) p17) mabeiv, Th né Mor pares
TPOOnHKEL Kpvat 7 adAw orpotv;
Aa. "Ad éyd) rovTov od pavOavw, & Lebkpares,
a / / ay 4 / 4 > ‘
6 tt BovAetas A€yew* ovrE yap pdvTw ovTE iaTpoVv
ovre aAAov oddéva SyAo?t Gvtwa Aye TOV avdpeiov,
ei pn) et Oedv Twa A€yer adrov elvar. pmol pev
- / /, > yaa , ce a
oov daiverar Nixias odk ébédew yevrvaiws opnodoyetv
@ 291 / > \ / ay \ /
ott ovdev A€yer, GAAA oTpédeTar avw Kal KaTw
emiKpuTTopevos THY avToo amopiav. Kaito. Kav
jets olot Te Huev apts éyw Te Kal ov ToLaira
/ 2:9 /, \ cal > , Pe!
atpepeobat, «i €Bovdducba pn Soxety evavtia tiv
adrots Aéyew. ei pev odv. ev Sixaorynpiw Tuiv
of Adyou joav, elyev av twa Adyov TadTa Toveiv:
vov d€ Ti av Tis ev ovvovcia ToLdde pdTHV Kevots
Adyous adros adrov Koopot;
a ?
sa. Ovdev 08d’ ewot Soxe?, & Aayns: add
64

LACHES

tacH. I do: it seems to be the seers whom he
calls the courageous: for who else can know for
which of us it is better to be alive than dead? And
yet, Nicias, do you avow yourself to be a seer, or to
be neither a seer nor courageous ?

nic. What! Is it now a seer, think you, who has
the gift of judging what is to be dreaded and what
to be dared ?

LacH. That is my view : who else could it be?

nic. Much rather the man of whom I speak, my
dear sir: for the seer’s business is to judge only the
signs of what is yet to come—whether a man is to
- meet with death or disease or loss of property, or
victory or defeat in war or some other contest ; but
what is better among these things for a man to
suffer or avoid suffering, can surely be no more
for a seer to decide than for anyone else in the
world.

Ltacu. Well, I fail to follow him, Socrates, or to
see what he is driving at; for he points out that
neither a seer nor a doctor nor anybody else is the
man he refers to as the courageous, unless perchance
he means it is some god. Now it appears to me that
Nicias is unwilling to admit honestly that he has no
meaning at all, but dodges this way and that in the
hope of concealing his own perplexity. Why, you
and I could have dodged in the same way just now,
if we wished to avoid the appearance of contra-
dicting ourselves. Of course, if we were arguing
in a law-court, there would be some reason for
so doing; but here, in a meeting like this of ours,
why waste time in adorning oneself with empty
words ?

soc. I agree that it is out of place, Laches : but let

65

PLATO

C Op@pev pa Nixias olerat Tt deyew Kat od Adyou
eveka Tabra Aéyer. atrod obv cadéorepov mu0d-
peBa ti more voet: Kat edv te palvntar A&dywr,
ovyxwpnoopeba, el d€ uy, ddd tomer.

AA. Lv Toivvr, @ LeKpares, et Botnet mruvOdve -
es muvbdvouv: éya 8° tows ixavds TETVOHLAL.
“AM ovdev pe kwhdeu" Kow? yap €oTat 2
mvotis dep epob we Kal ood.
AA. Ilavu pev oby,
=0. Aéye on) pou, a Nucia, padMov 8 jyyiv: Kol
vovpcba yap ey te kat Adyns tov Adyov: THY

D avdpetay emoTnunv pis Sewav te kal Oappadréwy

ris
. "Eywrye.

20. Toéro de ob mavTos oy) elvau avd pos yevat,
OMOTE YE [LATE tapos pare pdvris abro yvocerar

pnde av8petos €oTat, eay LI) adbryy tavTny Ti
eTLOTHLNV mpoodaBn: ovx ovTws eAeyes;

NI. Ovrw pev oor.

32. Kara THY Tapouyntay dpa. T@ OvTt ovK av aca
bs yvoin o¥d’ av avdpela yevorto.

NI. OU poe Soxel.

E 23a. _Aipov oy, & ® Nucia, 6 ore ovde ry Kpoppvw-
viav bv morevers ot ye dv8pelav yeyovévat. Todro
dé A€yw od Tailwy, GAN’ avayKaiov oiua TO tadra
A€yovTe pundevos Onpiov azrodéxecPar avdpeiav, 7)
cvyxwpeiv Onpiov te ovrw codov etvar, wore a
dXiyou avOpwmwv tcacr dia TO yaAeTa civar yvdvat,
Tatra Adovra 7 mdpdadw 7 Twa Kadmpov davat «idé-

1 The fierce monster slain by Theseus in the region be-
tween Corinth and Megara before he became the hero of
Attica.

66

LACHES

us see: perhaps Nicias thinks he does mean some-
thing, and is not talking just for the sake of talking.
So let us ask him to explain more clearly what is in
his mind; and if we find that he means something,
we will agree with him ; if not, we will instruct him.

LacH. Then, Socrates, if you would like to ask him,
please do so: I daresay I have done enough asking.

soc. Well, I see no objection, since the question
will be on behalf of us both.

Lac. Very well, then.

soc. Now tell me, Nicias, or rather, tell us—for
Laches and I are sharing the argument between us—
do you say that courage is knowledge of what is to
be dreaded or dared?

nic. I do.

soc. And that it is not every man that knows it,
since neither a doctor nor a seer can know it, and
cannot be courageous unless he add this particular
knowledge to his own? This was your statement,
was it not ?

nic. Yes, it was.

soc. And so in fact this is not a thing which, as
the proverb says, “any pig would know”; and thus
a pig cannot be courageous.

nic. I think not.

soc. Indeed it is obvious, Nicias, that you at least
do not believe that even the Crommyonian sow }
could have been courageous. I say this not in jest,
but because I conceive it is necessary for him who
states this theory to refuse courage to any wild
beast, or else to admit that a beast like a lion or a
leopard or even a boar is so wise as to know what
only a few men know because it is so hard to per-
ceive. Why, he who subscribes to your account of

67

197

PLATO

vat: aad’ avdynn opoies Aéovra Kai Aadov Kai
Tabpov Kal 7iOynKov mpdos dvdpetav padvat mepuKevat
TOV TB éwevov avdpelav TooP? Orrep od riBecau.

AA. Ny Tovs Oeovs, Kal €d ye Aéyers, & @ UaKpares.
Ka Hpi ads adnbds Tobro dmoxpwat, o Nuxia,
mOTEpOV codwtepa dis Huav Tada elvar TA Onpia,
a mavres dpodoyobpuev avdpeta elvat, 7 ay Téow evav-
TLOUJLEVOS Ttohuds pnde dv8peta atra Kadeiv;

nI. Od ydp tt, & Adyns, éywye avdpeta Kadrd

a Ud ” »” LAND! A A » Seg? ‘ > af
ovre Onpia odre aAAo oddev TO Ta Sewda bo avoias

> > \ / a“ \ \
p47) poBovpevor, | aan’ ddoBov Kai pwpov: 7) Kal Ta
madia mavTa oles pe avdpeta kahety, & a bv dvovay
ovdev Sédouxev; GAN oiwar to addoBov Kati rd
dvSpetov od Tabrov eoTw. eya 5é avdpeias _pev
Kal mpounbias mdve TLolv oXiyous oipas pereivar,
Opacdrnros de kat ToAUns kal Too apoBov pera
dmpopunBias mdavu moAXois Kat avd pav Kal yovark@v
Kat mraidwy Kai Onpiwy. tat7r’ obv & od KadXets
> ~ A c , > A tA ~ > a
avdpeta Kat ot moAAol, eye Opacéa Kar@, avdpeta
dé Ta dpdvysa mrepl dv déyw.
AA. O€aoa, @ LaxKpares, ws <0 O0€ éavrov
Si, Ws oleTal, Koopel ™@ Adyw* ods be Tavres
opodoyotaw avdpeiovs eivar, to’Touvs amoorepeiv
> al 4 ~ a
emixerpet Tav TYLTS.
Xetp ” i] hes te ‘Sud 2\\3 97 ee
ni. Ovxovr o€ ye,’ & Adyns, dAAa Bdppev: dnt yap
oe civar coddv, kal Aduayor ye, eimep ore avdpeior,
\ » \ > /
Kat aAdous ye avxvovs *“APnvaiwr.

AA. Ovdev ep mpos Tatra, eywv cineiv, wa
LH pe is ws adnbds Ai~wvéa civas.

1 oé ye papyr. Oxyr.: @ywye Mss.

1 A deme or district of Attica, noted for the abusive
wit of its people.
68

— ie.) ae eee ee eee a ee

= aa

ee ee ea

Aas: a

Cee ee

LACHES

courage must needs agree that a lion, a stag, a bull,
and a monkey have all an equal share of courage in
their nature.

tacH. Heavens, Socrates, how admirably you argue!
Now answer us sincerely, Nicias, and say whether
those animals, which we all admit to be courageous,
are wiser than we are; or whether you dare, in
contradiction of everyone else, describe them as not
even courageous.

nic. No, Laches, I do not describe animals, or
anything else that from thoughtlessness has no fear
of the dreadful, as courageous, but rather as fearless
and foolish: Or do you suppose I describe all
children as courageous, that have no fear because
they are thoughtless? I rather hold that the fearless
and the courageous are not the same thing. In my
opinion very few people are endowed with courage
and forethought, while rashness, boldness, and fear-
lessness, with no forethought to guide it, are found
in a great number of men, women, children, and
animals. So you see, the acts that you and most
people call courageous, I call rash, and it is the
prudent acts which I speak of that are courageous.

tacH. Mark you, Socrates, how finely, as he
fancies, my friend decks himself out with his
words! And how he attempts to deprive of the
distinction of courage those whom everyone admits
to be courageous !

nic. I am not referring to you, Laches, so do not
be frightened : for I grant that you, and Lamachus
also, are wise, since you are courageous, and I say
the same of numerous other Athenians.

tacH. I will not say what I could say in answer
to that, lest you call me a true son of Aexone.!

69

D

198

PLATO

xa. Mndd ye elmys, @ Adyns~ Kat yap j.ot
doxets ovde [u7)|' 7 70" Ojo8a ore Tavrny TH oogiav
Tapa. Adpwvos TOU 7EeTEpov ETalpov mapetAndev, 6
de Adpov T® Ipodikw modAXa TAnovaler, és 37)
Soxe? TOv coduoTav KéAoTa TA TOLAbTa dvdpara
dvaipety.

AA. Kai yap mpézet, & Losepares, oogiarh Ta.
TOLAUTA. _HaMov Kopipeveobas avdpt dv mods
tek adTis mpotordvas.

- [pemes per Tov,” @ paKkapte, Tov peyloTtwv
bE peylorns ppovicews peTéxew" Soxet
d€ pow Nuxias dfvos elvae emoKerpews, O7roL TOTE
BAérwv totvona tobTo TiOnow Ti avdpeiav.

Aa. Adros toivuv oxKoret, @ LesKpares..

(20. Totro péAAw movetv, @ dpore: pt) peevTou
olov pe ddijoew oe THS Kowwwvias tod Aoyov, adda
mpocexe TOV vodv kat ovoKdret TO. Acyopeva.

AA. Tatra 97) corTw, et doKxet xphvac.

"AAG. Soxet. ob d¢, Nixia, Aéye 7) py aaAw
ae tins olo®” ore Ti dvSpelay Kat apxas Tob
Adyou €oKxoTobpev ws pépos apeTis oKomodbvtes ;

ni. Ildvy ye.

=a. Ovxoby Kal od TodTO dmexpivw ws popvov,
dvrwy 81) Kal GAdwy pepdv, & ovpmavTa ape?)
re 7

. Ids yap ov;

. *Ap’ obv dmep eyw Kat od Tatra t A€yets 5 eyo
de wey mpos dvdpeta owppoovyyy Kal Suxacoovyny
Kat GAA’ arta rowatra. od Kal ov;

1 wh om. papyr. Oxyr.

2 zrov Stob.: ro Mss.

1 Cf.'190 c.

70

i a i i i i i i

7

a

LACHES

soc. No, say nothing, Laches: for in fact you
seem to me to have failed to perceive that he has
acquired his wisdom from Damon, our good friend ;
and Damon constantly associates with Prodicus, who
is supposed to be the cleverest of the sophists at
distinguishing terms like these.

LtacH. Yes, for it is more suitable, Socrates, for a
sophist to make a show of such refinements than for
a man whom the State thinks worthy to govern her.

soc. Indeed it is suitable, I presume, my amiable
friend, for a man in the highest seat of government
to be gifted with the highest degree of wisdom.
But it seems to me that Nicias is worthy of further
attention, so that we may learn in what connexion
he uses this word “ courage.”

LacH. Then attend to him yourself, Socrates. .

soc. That is what I propose to do, my good sir:
still, you are not to think that I will release you
from your due share of the argument. No, you must
put your mind to it and join in weighing well what
is said.

LacH. Well, so be it, if you think that I ought.

soc. Indeed Ido. Now, Nicias, please go back to
the beginning ! and answer us : you know we started
our discussion by considering courage as a part of
virtue ?

Nic. Quite so.

soc. And you joined in this answer,—that it is
a part, there being also other parts, which taken all
together have received the name of virtue ?

nic. Why, of course.

soc. Now, do you mean the same as I do by these ?
Besides courage, I refer to temperance, justice, and
other similar qualities. And you also, do you not?

71

B

PLATO

ni. IIdvu pev odv.

"Exe, 57° Tatra pev yap 5 iodove dase
aot Be Trav Seway kat Bappadéwv oxepaed: a,
Omws pa) od pev GAN’ arra Hyh, hpets Se dMa.. a
fev odv Huets ryoUpeba, doacopev cou" od 5é ay
pI) oporoyis, bidders. nyotueba 5° apes Sewd
pev elvar a Kal dé€os TapeXet, Oapparéa dé a fy)
d€os Tapexet” déos 5é TApEXE ov Ta yeyovora
ovd€ Ta TaporvTa TOY KaK@v, dAAa Ta TpoadoK-
preva dSéos yap elvat mpocdoKiay éAAovros KaKod-
7 obx ovTwW Kal ovvdoKe?,’ & Adyns;

AA. Ilavu ye odddpa, & UedKpares.

zo. Ta pev jpérepa toivuv, & Nuxia, axovets,
OTe Sewa pev Ta péMovra. kaka dapyev elvar,
Oapparéa be TO [L1) kad 7 ayaba. péMovra~ ov
de eat 7 dAy mept TovTwr A€yets ;

1. Tavrn éywye.

on Tovrwv dé ye thy éemotiny avdpelay mpoo-
ayopevets ;

NI. Kowid9 ye.

xa. “Ere 57 70 tpitov oKepapeBa «i ovvdoKet
gol Te Kal Hiv.

ni. To zrotov 81) todo;

20. "Ey 57) ppdow. Soxet yap 57) pot TE
Kai T@bE, mept oowv éoriy emaT npn, obK aAXn
prev eivat mept yeyovoros etdevar omy ‘yéyovev,
adAy be Tept yeyvopeveny orn ylyveran, aAAn de
om dy Kddvora yévouro Kal yevijoerat TO paren
yeyoves, aN’ 7 avrn. olov mepi 70 dyvewov | ets
dmavras TOUS xpdvous ovK GAAn Tis 7 larpiKy,
pia otoa, edopa Kal yryvopmeva Kal yeyovdra Kai

1 cuvdoxet Burnet: od doxe?, doxet kal od Mss.

72

LACHES

nic. Certainly Ido. .

soc. So much for that; thus far we agree: but
let us pass on to what is to be dreaded and what to
be dared, and make sure that you and we do not
take two different views of these. Let me tell you our
view of them, and if you do not agree with it, you
shall instruct us. We hold that the dreadful are

that cause fear, and the safely ventured are

those that do not; and fear is caused not by past
or present, but by expected evils: for fear is ex-
pectation of coming evil. You are of the same mind
with us in this, are you not, Laches?

LacH. Yes, entirely so, Socrates.

soc. So there you have our view, Nicias,—that
coming evils are to be dreaded, and things not evil,
or good things, that are to come are to be safely
dared. Would you describe them in this way; or in
some other ?

nic. I would describe them in this way

soc. And the knowledge of these things is what
you term courage?

nic. Precisely.

soc. There is still a third point on which we must
see if you are in agreement with us.

nic. What point is that ?

soc. I will tell you. It seems to your friend and
me that, to take the various subjects of knowledge,
there is not one knowledge of how a thing has
happened in the past, another of how things are
- happening in the present, and another of how a
thing that has not yet happened might or will
happen most favourably in the future, but it is the
same knowledge throughout. For example, in the
ease of health, it is medicine always and alone that

73

PLATO

E yevnoopeva orn yevijoerau: Kat mept Ta eK Tis

199

~ >
vis ad dudpeva 4) yewpyia Hoatvrws Exe Kal
/ A \
Symov Ta Tepl TOV mdAEMOV adTol av apTUpHaatTe
o e€ U 4 ~ , »”
ort 9) oTpaTnyia KdAoTa tpounetrar Ta Te GAAa
\ ~ ~
kal 7rept TO weAAov Eocobar, odde TH pavTiKH olerax
Seiv danpereiv GdAd apyew, ws eidvia KdAdov 7a
Tept Tov mdAEuov Kal yiyvopneva Kal ‘yevnodmeva"
a: lon
Kal 6 vom“os OUTW TATTEL, 17) TOV paVTW TOD oTpa-
~ >
Tnyov apxew, aAAd TOV oTparnyov Tod pavTews.
gpyjoopev tadra, @ Adxyns;
AA. Dijcopev.
, A \ ee! Lou td , 4 a
20. Ti be; od jpiv, d Nucia, odpdys mept Tar
~ ,
abtOv THv avTivy emoTHunv Kal e€oouevwv Kal
yeyvomevv Kal yeyovotwy éematew;
” a / 4 > 7
NI. "Eywye: doxe? yap pou ovrws, @ LodKpares.
> ~ - £ Pe Fe / ~ aA
22. OdKodv, d adpiore, Kai 7) avdpeia Tav Sewav
> / > ‘ ‘ 4 e / /
emuoTnun eoTi Kat Oappadréwv, ws dis H yap;
ni. Nai. ¥
xa. Ta dé Sewa apodrdyynra Kat Ta Oappadéa ra
A 2rX > 4] / A PS) A /rX ‘ Zi
pev peAdovra ayabd, Ta dé péAdovta Kaka eivar.
ni. Ildvu ye.
xa. ‘H 8€ y adr) emorin tav adradv Kai
peAdevtwy Kai mdvTws éxovTwv elvas.
ni. "Eore tadra.
so. O8 povov dpa tdv Sewadv Kai Pappadéwv
e > , > / > / > ‘ AAS:
% dvdpeia emioTipn eoTiv: od} yap pedddvTwv
povov mépt TOv ayabdv re Kal Kax@v erater, adda
Kal yuyvonevwy Kal yeyovoTwy Kal mavTws exXovTa@yv,
@omep at dAAa emiorhpar.
74

LACHES

surveys present, past, and future processes alike ;
and farming is in the same position as regards the
productions of the earth. And in matters of war I
am sure you yourselves will bear me out when I say
that here generalship makes the best forecasts on the
whole, and particularly of future results, and is the
mistress rather than the servant of the seer’s art,
because it knows better what is happening or about
to happen in the operations of war ; whence the law
ordains that the general shall give orders to the seer,
and not the seer to the general. May we say this,
Laches ?

LacH. We may.

soc. Well now, do you agree with us, Nicias, that
the same knowledge has comprehension of the same
things, whether future, present, or past ?

nic. I do, for that is my own opinion, Socrates.

soc. And courage, my good friend, is knowledge
of what is to be dreaded and dared, as you say, do
you not ?

nic. Yes.

soc. And things to be dreaded and things to be
dared have been admitted to be either future goods
or future evils ? .

nic. Certainly.

soc. And the same knowledge is concerned with
the same things, whether in the future or in any
particular stage ?

nic. That is so.

soc. Then courage is knowledge not merely of
what is to be dreaded and what dared, for it com-
prehends goods and evils not merely in the future,
but also in the present and the past and in any stage,
like the other kinds of knowledge.

75

PLATO

*Eouxé Ye.
=a. Mabie apa dv8peias tpi, } Nixia, am-
expivw axeddov Tue Tpitov- Kalror Hets Hpwrdpev
5X > 5 , ¢ ” \ Vea 3 5 ‘ ¢ ” \
OAnv avdpetav 6 Tt Ein. Kai viv 54, ws EouKe, KATA
A ~
TOV cov Adyov ov pdvov Sewa@v Te Kal Bappadéun
emoripsn) % avdpeia coriy, aAAa oxeddv Tt i) mept
TmavTwv dyabéav TE Kal KaKOv Kal mavTws exovTE,
ws viv ad 6 ads Adyos, avdpela av ein? ovTwWs ad
4 ~
petaribecbar 7) mas déyers, & Nuxia;
NI. “"Ewouye Soxe?, & Ld«pares.
x2. Aoxe? ody cor, & Saydvie, aoAeimew av Te
¢ ~ lo
6 ToLwodTos apeTis, elmep eidein Ta TE ayaa TavTa
kal mayTadmacw ws ylyverat Kal yevijoeTas Kal
yéyove, Kal Ta Kaka WoatTws; Kal TodTOV ole av
od evded elvar cwdpootvns 7 Sixatoodvyns TE Kal
daloTnTos, @ ye povw mpoonKker Kal mept Beods
‘ ‘ > 7 > a , 4 \ ‘
Kat wept avOpwrous e€evAafeiobai re Ta Sewa Kai
7a py, Kal Tayaba rropilecOa, emorapevw opbds
mpocopureir ;
ni. Adyew ti & LadKparés por Soxets.
> mv > / / > a a A ‘
sa. Ovx dpa, & Nixia, pdpiov aperijs av ein To
viv oot Aeyopevov, GAAa ovpTaca apeTn.
NI. “Kouxev.
sn. Kat pi edaper ye THv avdpetav pdpvov elvat
év TOV THs apeTis.
” -
ni. "Edapev yap.
xa. To S¢ ye viv Aeydpuevor od daiverat.
ni. Ovdx €ouxer.

76

LACHES

nic. Apparently.

soc. So the answer that you gave us, Nicias, covers
only about a third part of courage; whereas our
question was of what courage is as a whole. And
now it appears, on your own showing, that courage
is knowledge not merely of what is to be dreaded
and what dared, but practically a knowledge con-
cerning all goods and evils at every stage ; such is
your present account of what courage must be.
What do you say to this new version, Nicias ?

nic. I accept it, Socrates.

soc. Now do you think, my excellent friend, there
could be anything wanting to the virtue of a man
who knew all good things, and all about their pro-
duction in the present, the future, and the past,
and all about evil things likewise? Do you suppose
that such a man could be lacking in temperance,
or justice, and holiness, when he alone has the gift
of taking due precaution, in his dealings with gods
and men, as regards what is to be dreaded and
what is not, and of procuring good things, owing
to his knowledge of the right behaviour towards
them ?

nic. I think, Socrates, there is something in what
you say.

soc. Hence what you now describe, Nicias, will be
not a part but the whole of virtue.

nic. Apparently.

soc. But, you know, we said that courage is one
of the parts of virtue.

nic. Yes, we did.

soc. And what we now describe is seen to be
different.

nic. So it seems.

VOL. IV D 77

200

PLATO

> »” e /, > , >

za. Ovd« dpa nipyxapev, d Nuxia, avdpela 6 71
€oTw.

n1. O8 dawodpeba. .

A A ” ho , , ”

AA. Kai pay eywye, B pire Nucia, @unv ce
eipyoew, ered) e400 Katedpdvncas Lwxpdrer
>
arroxpwayevou’ mavu 87 pweydAnv éAmida efyov, ods
TH mapa Tod Aduwvos codia adriy avevpyces.

> / ~

ni. Ed ye, & Adyns, dru oddev oter od Er mpaypya
Z A > A »” > i > PS) , / 35e
elvar, Gre abros apt epdvns avdpelas mépr oddev
> / > > > ‘ > \ 4 ~ > ,
elows, GAN’ ei Kal ey Erepos ToLodTos avadavy-
coma, mpos Totro BAézes, Kal oddev Eri Sioicer,
ws €ouKe, Gol pet eod pndev eidévar Hv mpoorjKer
emuoTHunv exew avopt olouevw ti elvar. od pev
otv prot Soxeis ws aAnPds avOpdrewv mpadypya
> 4 PAN! ‘ RN / > \ ‘
epyalecbar, oddev mpos abrov Brémew adda mpods

\ »” . > ‘ 8° t > \ a, 2r /
tovs aAXous: ey 8’ olwar ewot epi dv eAéyouev
vov Te emieik@s eipfoba, kal et Te adra@v pun ixav@s
elpytat, votepov emavopbiwcecbar Kai peta Aa-
fwvos, o8 ov mov ole KatayeAdv, Kal Tatra

2994 ODN / \ / ‘ > mv
ovde Sav mumote Tov Aduwva, Kal per aGAAwr:

\ > A 7 > / 7 \ ,
Kal éemedav BeBardowna ard, dida€w Kal o€,

\ > / a / ‘ / /
Kal od d0ovicw: SoKxeis yap por Kat para odddpa
Seioar pabeiv.

AA. Logos ydp tor od el, & Nuxia. addr’
¢ se , as \ ree
Guws eyds Avoywsdyw t@de Kai MeAnoia ovpBov-
Aevw, o€ pev Kal cue mrepi THs Tawdelas THY veavi-
oxwv xaipew eGv, LwKpdrn S€ tovtovi, dmep e€
> ~ wy \ > / > \ Ae » ce ,
apyis €Aeyov, 7) adiévas: et S€ Kat euol ev HAtKia
joav of maides, TadTa av Tabr’ ézoiour.

78

- LACHES

soc. Thus we have failed to discover, Nicias, what
courage really is.

nic. Evidently.

tacu. And I, in fact, supposed, my dear Nicias,
that you were going to discover it, when you showed
such contempt for the answers I made to Socrates :
indeed I had very great hopes that the wisdom you
derived from Damon would avail you for the dis-
covery.

nic. That is all very fine, Laches; you think you
can now make light of the fact that you were your-
self shown just now to know nothing about courage ;
when my turn comes to be shown up in the same light,
that is all you care, and now it will not matter to
you at all, it seems, if I share-your ignorance of things
whereof any self-respecting man ought to have know-
ledge. You really strike me, indeed, as following the
average man’s practice of keeping an eye on others
rather than on oneself: but I fancy that for the
present I have said as much as could be expected
on the subject of our discussion, and that later on
I must make good any defects in my statement upon
it with the help of Damon—whom I know you choose
to ridicule, and that without ever having seen the
actual Damon—and with others’ help besides. And
when I have settled the matter I will enlighten you,
in no grudging spirit: for I think you are in very
great need of instruction.

LacH. You are a man of wisdom, I know, Nicias.
But still I advise Lysimachus here and Melesias to
dismiss you and me, and to retain our friend Socrates
as I said at first, for the education of your boys:
were my own sons old enough, I should do the same
thing too.

79

PLATO -

. Taira pev Kayo ovyxwpd, edvmep €Bédy
Sosoerns Trav petpartooy emysedciobar, pndeva

D aAXov Cnretv: emel Kav eyo tov Nuxjparov Toure

201

dora. emiTpeTou, et €Bédou obros: aANa, yap
aAAous pou exdorore ouviornow, Orav Tt are qept
TOUTOU pvc, avros dé ovK eOédet. aA’ dpa, &
Avoipaxe, el TL god av paMov & drraovor UwKparys.

Ar. Aixasdv yé tor, & N uta, erel Kal eya Toure
moAAd av eehhaasps motetv, & odK av GAXoLS Trav
moAdois €OéAoyu. mas odv dis, © UwKpares;
brakovon Te Kat ovpmpolvpnon ws PBeAriorots
yevéobar Tots pepakiots ;

xa. Kai yap dv dewov ein, & Avoisaye, tobdrd
ye, 7) eBehew Tw? ovprpobvpetobau ws Bedriorw
yeveoBas. el pev obv ev Tots Siaddyous Tots aptt
eyo pev epdvny eidais, TwOE be pe) eiddTe, Sikatov
av jv ewe pddvora € emi ToOTO To Epyov TrapakaAety:
viv & ; Opoiws yap mavTes ev dropig. evevouieda
Ti obv av Tis NuU@v Twa Tpoarpotro; epol pev oov
57 atdT@ doxet ovdeva" GAN ered) Tatra ovrws
Exel, oxdypacbe av 7 ddEw ovpBovdevew bpiv.
eye yap pyr XpHvat, @ avbpes—ovdels yap expopos
dyos—Kowh} mavras mpas Cnreiv padvora ev ji
avrots diddoKadov ws dprorov—BeopeBa yap—
emetra Kal Tots melpakiols, pare xXenedrov pevdo-
pevous pare dAAov pndevos: ev dé pas. avTovs
exe, ws viv EXOMEV, | ov. oupBovreveo. et dé Tis
Hpadv KatayeAdoeTat, Ott TIAtKoie 6 ovres eis dida-
oxdAwy aéiodpev pouray, TOV “Opmpov doxet pou
xXphvat mpoBa\reobar, os eon ovK dyaBiy elvau
aid® Kexypnucvm avdpl mapetvar. Kal tuets odv

1 Od. xvii. 347.

80

la i

.
{
t
’

LACHES

nic. For my part I agree ; if Socrates will consent
to take charge of these young people, I will seek for
no one else. I should be only too glad to entrust
him with Niceratus, if he should consent : but when
I begin to mention the matter to him, he always
recommends other men to me and refuses himself.
Just see, Lysimachus, if Socrates will give you a
more favourable hearing.

tys. It is only right that he should, Nicias, for
indeed I would be willing to do many things for
him which I would not do for a great many others.
Well, what do you say, Socrates? Will you comply,
and lend your endeavours for the highest improve-
_ ment of these boys ?

soc. Why, how strange it would be, Lysimachus,
to refuse to lend one’s endeavours for the highest
improvement of anybody! Now if in the debates
that we have just held I had been found to know
what our two friends did not know, it would be right
to make a point of inviting me to take up this work :
but as it is, we have all got into the same difficulty,
so why should one of us be preferred to another?
In my own opinion, none of us should; and this
being so, perhaps you will allow me to give you a
piece of advice. I tell you, gentlemen—and this is
confidential—that we ought all alike to seek out
the best teacher we can find, first for ourselves—for
we need one—and then for our boys, sparing neither
expense nor anything else we can do: but to leave
ourselves as we now are, this I do not advise. And
if anyone makes fun of us for seeing fit to go to
school at our time of life, I think we should appeal
to Homer, who said that “ shame is no good mate
for a needy man.”? So let us not mind what any-

81

PLATO

édoavres xalpew el Tis TL epet, KowH Hudv adrdv |
Kal Tov petpaxtoy emreAcvav romocpeba.
*Epot pev apéoKet, a LuKpares, a Aéyets*

saa on, Oowmep yepaitatés elu, TooovTw
mpobuporara pavOdvew pera Tov veavioxwv. aAdd.
joo obTwat moingov" avpuov ewlev adixov oixade,
kal By dws TOUHonS, iva. BovrevowireBa Trept
adt&v tovTwy: To Sé viv elvar TH ovvovoiay dia-
Avowpev.

xa. "Aa moijow, & Avoipaye, tadra, Kai 7éw
Tapa oé avpiov, eav Beds €BéAn.

82

LACHES

one may say, but join together in arranging for our
own and the boys’ tuition.

tys. I gladly approve of your suggestion, Socrates ;
and as I am the oldest, so I am the most eager to
have lessons with the young ones. Now this is what
I ask you to do: come to my house to-morrow at
daybreak; be sure not to fail, and then we shall
consult on this very matter. For the present, let us
break up our ag

soc. I will not fail, Lysimachus, to come to you
to-morrow, God willing.

VOL. IV

PROTAGORAS

D2

85

INTRODUCTION TO THE PROTAGORAS

Tue masterly powers of description, characteriza-
tion, rhetoric, and reasoning, which conspire in the
Protagoras to produce, with such apparent ease, one
rapid and luminous effect, have earned it a very high
—with some judges the highest—place among Plato’s
achievements in philosophic drama. After an intro-
ductory scene, in which the excitement of ardent
young spirits over the arrival of a great intellectual
personage leads quickly to the setting of the stage
for the main business of the plot, we are shown
Socrates in respectful but keenly critical contact
with the first and most eminent of the itinerant
professors of a new culture or enlightenment. On
the other side we see the old and celebrated teacher
displaying his various abilities with weight and
credit, but with limitations which increasingly

suggest that his light is waning before the fresh and _

more searching flame of Socratic inquiry. The
drama is philosophic in the fullest sense, not merely
owing to this animated controversy and its develop-
ment of a great moral theme,—the acquisition of
virtue, but because we are made to feel that behind
or above the actual human disputants are certain
principles and modes of thought, which hold a high
and shadowy debate, as it were, of their own in the

dimness of what is as yet- unexamined and un-'—

explained. Of this larger argument the human
86

INTRODUCTION TO THE PROTAGORAS

scene gives but fitful glimpses; but in the end it
is suggested and impressed in sufficiently definite
outline to become the further object of our roused
and refined curiosity.

This dialogue is, indeed, a work of profoundly
suggestive art, and our first duty is to observe and
comprehend as clearly as may be the persons in the
play and the interaction of their salient thoughts
and feelings. Protagoras was the founder of a
popular culture which aimed at presenting the highest
lessons of the poets, thinkers, and artists of the
preceding age in a convenient form for the needs
of the rising generation of Greek statesmen,—a form
also that should be marketable, for he invented the
trade of the professional educator, and was the first
to charge a regular fee for the wisdom or skill that
he imparted. His own chief accomplishment was
impressive declamation on moral and _ political
themes: he was prone, as we find in this interview,
to a somewhat lengthy style of exposition, and
correspondingly loth to undergo the mental strain
of being cross-examined by Socrates. No attempt
is made here to tease or bait him. It is clear enough,
without the express statement made in the Republic
(x. 600), that he had attained a most honourable
position in Greece through his earnest zeal for
educational progress. But he did not stop to think
out the bases of his teaching; and the immediate
interest of the dialogue consists largely in watching
. the succession of strokes by which Socrates, a
younger! and subtler advocate of the same cause,

1 At the time of this meeting (just before the Pelopon-
nesian War, in 432 B.c.) Socrates would be 36 years old, and
Alcibiades 19.

87

INTRODUCTION TO THE PROTAGORAS

exposes and undermines the fine but unsound
fabri¢ of his fame.

In the stately myth (320-328) by which Protagoras
unfolds his theory of the origin of human society
and morals, Plato gives us a carefully wrought
imitation of the professor’s favourite method and
style. It is an eloquent substantiation of the
common-sense view that virtue can be taught;
and fidelity in characterization seems to have
prompted Plato to attribute to the old sophist
some principles which are more than ordinarily
enlightened. In particular we may notice his
account of the beginning of governments (322),
and his appeal for the curative and preventive use
of punishment (324). And later on, while he totters
defenceless under the force and acuteness of Socrates’
questions, we find him objecting—and it was soon to
be Plato’s own opinion—that it is rash to regard all
pleasure as good (351). Plato, in fact, appears to
be more intent on exhibiting the impetuous energy
and superior skill with which Socrates could on
occasion upset an experienced teacher and famous
scholar, than on impressing us with the correctness of
this or that theory which the younger man may
snatch up and fling at the professor’s head in the
momentary sport or heat of the contest. The ex-
planation which Socrates propounds of the poem of
Simonides (343-347) is obviously a mocking satire on
certain sophistic performances ; but he is no less
obviously serious, for the purpose in hand, when he
makes his statement on the relation of virtue to
pleasure. The unsatisfactory effect which this leaves
upon our minds must be referred to the main object
of the dialogue, which is to prove the power of the

88

INTRODUCTION TO THE PROTAGORAS

new science of dialectic in disturbing our settled
habits of thought and in stimulating fresh inquiry
into problems of the highest import to mankind.

Among the many minor interests attaching to
this vivid picture of the intellectual life of Athens
in the latter part of the fifth century, the appropriate
style given in each case to the utterances of Prot-
agoras, Prodicus, and Hippias deserves attention for
the evidence thus afforded of a deliberate cultivation
of prose-form at that time. Plato has left us a less
sympathetic but similarly interesting study of
Protagoras’ manner of speech in his later work, the
Theaetetus.

The following brief outline of the discussion may
be useful :—

I. 309 a-316 a. Socrates tells his (unnamed)
friend that he and Alcibiades have just been con-
versing with Protagoras, and describes how his
young friend Hippocrates had announced to him
the great sophist’s arrival in Athens, and how, after
questioning Hippocrates on his design of learning
from the sophist, he proceeded with him to the
house of Callias, with whom Protagoras was staying.
They found there not only Protagoras but the
learned Hippias and Prodicus also, and many
followers and disciples who had assembled to hear
their discourses.

II. 316 a-320 c. Protagoras explains the purpose
of his teaching: he will educate Hippocrates in
politics and citizenship. Socrates raises the question
whether virtue can be taught.

III. 320 c-328 p. Protagoras delivers a char-
acteristic speech, in which he relates a fable of the

89

INTRODUCTION TO THE PROTAGORAS

origin of man. It illustrates his doctrine that
virtue can be taught, both by individuals and by
the State.

IV. 328 p-334.c. Socrates cross-examines Prot-
agoras: (1) Is each of the virtues a part of virtue,
or only a different name for the same thing?
(2) Protagoras replies that the several virtues differ
like the parts of the face. (3) In answer to an ob-
jection from Socrates, Protagoras allows that justice
and holiness must be like each other. (4) Socrates
then urges that temperance and wisdom must
be the same, and would argue likewise of temper-
ance and justice; but (5) Protagoras, impatient
of being questioned, reverts to his favourite
method of declamation on the notions of “ good”’
and “ beneficial.”

V. 384 c-338 z. Socrates makes as if to go: he
will only stay if Protagoras will keep to the method
of question and answer. At the request of Callias,
Alcibiades, Critias, Prodicus and Hippias he agrees
to stay and be questioned by Protagoras, after
which Protagoras will be questioned by him.

VI. 338 e-347.. Socrates is cross-examined by
Protagoras on the meaning of a poem of Simonides,
and tries to save the consistency of the poet, which
Protagoras impugns, by distinguishing between
“being good” and “ becoming good”; he also sug-
gests a peculiar significance of words in Ceos (the
native place of the poet and of Prodicus, whose
verbal learning he satirizes with some pedantic
nonsense). He then gives his own explanation of
the poem, which he holds to have been written to
refute a saying of Pittacus (an Ionian sage of the
latter part of the seventh century B.c.) that “it is

90

es

INTRODUCTION TO THE PROTAGORAS

hard to be good’’: to become good, said the poet, is
_ hard; to be good is impossible; he looked for no
virtue on earth.

VII. 347 4-360 £. Alcibiades and Callias prevail
on Protagoras, rather against his will, to be

. questioned by Socrates as to whether wisdom, tem-
perance, courage, justice and holiness are all the
same thing, or different parts of virtue. Protagoras
singles out courage as distinct from the rest. When
Socrates argues that it is the same as wisdom,
Protagoras objects to his reasoning, and Socrates
starts on a new line: Is not pleasure, viewed apart
from its consequences, the same as the good? To
be overcome by pleasure is merely to choose the
less instead of the greater good, through ignorance ;
and pleasure being good, every action must be good
that has pleasure as its object. The coward who
will not fight when he ought is suffering from an
ignorant misconception of what lies before him, so
that courage must be knowledge.

VIII. 360 e-362 a. It is shown, in conclusion,
that Socrates and Protagoras have each been led
into a position opposite to that which they held at
the beginning: Socrates’ identification of virtue
with knowledge brings him to the view that virtue
must be teachable, which he at first denied; while
Protagoras, who held that it is teachable, now
declares that it is not knowledge, thus denying it
the sole means of being taught.

A good modern edition of the Protagoras is that
by J. Adam, Cambridge University Press, 1905.

91

St. I.
p. 309

ITIPQTATOPA®

[H SO®ISTAI* ENAEIKTIKO ]

TA TOT AIAAOTOY ITPOZOIA

ETAIPOS, SQKPATHS, IMMOKPATHS, MPONTATOPAS,
AAKIBIAAHS, KAAAIAS, KPITIAS, MPOAIKOX, IMMIAS

, > , eg a \
eT. IIddev, & LUedxpares, daivn; 7 SHAa 8y
Lf > \ , ~ \ A ?AX if)
OTL amo Kuvyyeciov Tod meEpt THV KuBiddov
A ‘ , \ cA 29 7 ‘ A
Spav; Kal unv por Kai mpwnv iddvte Kados pev
> / Die % ” pm | / on /
edaivero avip ert, avip pevTo, ® Lwo«pares,
@ a HD a a an td
as y ev adrois juiv eippobar, Kal mobywvos 75
drromipTAdeEvos.
~ ¢
xa. Eira ti rotro; od od pevroe “Oprpov
> / “a ” / iid
exawérns el, ds edn yapieorarny nBnv «iva
~ ¢ egehliag ¥ Abie | , ”
Tob Uanvytov, nv viv “AAKiBiddys exer;
7, = A ~ > > / 7
eT. Ti ody ta viv; % map éexelvou dairy;
Kal 7@s mpos o€ 6 veavias SidKerTat;
sn. Ed, euouye edokev, ody Kota Sé Kal TH
a rat f \ \ ae > oat
viv jpepa: Kal yap moAAa bzep euod ele, Bon-
Odv euol, Kal ody Kal dptt am’ éxeivov epxouat.
dromov pevro. Ti cou eOdAw eimeiv: mapdvTos yap

92

PROTAGORAS
[or SOPHISTS : an aRRAIGNMENT]

CHARACTERS

A Frrenp, Socrates, Hippocrates, Proracoras,
Atcrperapes, Cariras, Critras, Propicus, Hiprras

rr. Where have you been now, Socrates? Ah, but

of course you have been in chase of Alcibiades and his

outhful beauty! Well, only the other day, as I
ooked at him, I thought him still handsome as a
man—for a man he is, Socrates, between you and
me, and with quite a growth of beard.

soc. And what of that? Do you mean to say you
do not approve of Homer,! who said that youth has
highest grace in him whose beard is appearing, as
now in the case of Alcibiades ?

Fr. Then how is the affair at present? Have you
been with him just now? And how is the young
man treating you?

soc. Quite well, I considered, and especially so to-
day : for he spoke a good deal on my side, supporting
me in a discussion—in fact I have only just left him.
However, there is a strange thing I have to tell you:

1 Iliad, xxiv. 348.
93

PLATO

éxeivou, ovTe mpoceixov Tov vodv, émeAavOavdunv
Te avToo Bap.

C er. Kai ri a yeyoves ein mept oé KaKeivov
Toaobrov mpay ya ; od yap Simov twit Kaddlovw
everuyes GMw ev ye THSE TH OAL. :

zn. Kat wodd ye.

Et. Ti dys; dora ij fev;

x0. Hew.

ET. ToSana ;

za. “APSnpirn.

ET. Kai otrw xadds tis 6 kévos €dS0€E cor
elvar, wore tod Knewiov vigos KadAiwy cou da-
vivat;

za. Ids 8 od pda, d waxdpe, 7d codwirarov
KdAdov daivecba;

ET. “Ad” 7 ood tin juiv, & UedKpares,
evTvy@v mapet;

D 29. Lodwrdtw pev oby Symov Tdv ye viv, et
go. Soxet coduitatos eivar Ipwraydpas.

ET. "Q zi Aéyews; Ilpwraydpas ETLOEONUNKEV ;

=0. Tpirny ye i) mE pay.

ET. Kai dpti dpa éxeivw ovyyeyordds: ixews;

310 30. IIdvu ye moda Kal cima@v Kai axovoas.

ET. Ti odv od Siunyjow nuiv tiv Evvovoiar,
ei poy o€ Te KwAver, Kabilouevos evravbi, eEava-
oTHoas Tov Taida TovToVi;

za. Idvu pev ody: Kal xdpw ye eicowar, eav
aKounre.

1 The Friend had an attendant who was sitting by him, r)
94

PROTAGORAS

although he was present, I not merely paid him no
attention, but at times forgot him altogether.

rr. Why, what can have happened between you
and him? Something serious! For surely you did
not find anyone else of greater beauty there,—no,
not in our city.

soc. Yes, of far greater.

rr. What do you say? One of our people, or a
foreigner ?

soc. A foreigner.

rr. Of what city ?

soc. Abdera.

rr. And you found this foreigner so beautiful that
he appeared to you of greater beauty than the son
of Cleinias ?

soc. Why, my good sir, must not the wisest
appear more beautiful ? ;

Fr. Do you mean it was some wise man that you
met just now?

soc. Nay, rather the wisest of our generation, I
may tell you, if “ wisest” is what you agree to call
Protagoras.

rr. Ah, what a piece of news! Protagoras come
to town !

soc. Yes, two days ago.

rr. And it was his company that you left just
now?

soc. Yes, and a great deal I said to him, and he
to me.

rr. Then do let us hear your account of the con-
versation at once, if you are disengaged: take my
boy’s place,! and sit here.

soc. Very good; indeed, I shall be obliged to
you, if you will listen.

95

PLATO

ET. Kai pay Kat jets ool, eav Aéyns.

xa. AumdAq av ely 7 xdpus. aan’ obv aKovere.
Tis TapeABovons vuKros TAVTNOL, ere Babéos
dpOpov, “Immoxparns 6 "AzroModeipov vids, Pa-
awvos 5é _ Werdos, TH Ovpav TH Barrnpia mavu
opddpa | EKpove, Kal €7revO7) avr@ avewké TUS,
evOds elow Tet emrevyopevos, Kat Th puri péya
Aéyuv, *Q LosKpares, ebm, € eypijyopas A Kabevders ;
kal éeyw TH porn yvovs adrod, “Immoxpdrns,
epnv, ovTos' pn TL vewrepov ayyéAAes; Ovddey
> > a > A > / | 4 Be
y, » 8 ds, e¢ pr) ayabd ye. Ed ay Aé€yous, Fv
& ey: €ort dé ti, Kal Tod Evexa THviKdde adixov;
IIpwraydpas, €bn, Ker, ards map’ ewot. Lpanpv,
edyv eyo od dé aptt meémvoas ; Ni) rods Geos,
éfn, €omépas ye. Kal dpua éemupndadjoas rob
oxiumodos exablélero mapa Tovs modas pov, Kal
> ¢ / ~ 4 2 pa > ,
elzev- ‘“Eorépas Sita, pdda ye dé adixdpevos
° 7. 2 ¢ / a c / > 4
e€ Oivons. 6 ydp Tor mais we 6 Ldtupos amédpa-

A ~ , / hd ,
kat OfTa peAAwy cow dpdlew, ott Siw€oipunv
72 y. e / »” > / > A \
avrov, bd twos addov émeAabounv: éeid7 Se
> ‘ / \ eee!
HABov Kat SedermvnKdTes Tuev Kat euedAopev
> , / ¢ ‘ 4 a 4
avarravecOar, Tote por adeAdos A€yer, STL KEL
IIpwraydpas. Kat ere peev evexetpnoa ed0ds
mapa oé lévor, eeira pou diay moppw edoge tay
vuxta@v elvar émeid1) Sé TaxLoTa pe EK TOD KdTFOU
6 Umvos avikev, ev0ds avactas ovtw Sedpo émo-
pevopny. Kal eye) yeyvaoKwv avrod Hy dvBpetav
Kal Thy mroinow, Ti obtv co, Av & eyes, TovTO;
pa@v rt oe aduKet ITpwraydpas ; Kal (os yeAdoas,
Nj Tovs Deovs, eb, @ LwxKpares, Ort Ye [eves
€oTt aogés, eye be ov 7rovet. “AMA, vat pa Ata,
edyv eyw, av adr@ Sdhs apy’piov Kai welOns

96

a ry a

PROTAGORAS

rr. And we also to you, I assure you, if you will
tell us.
soc. A twofold obligation. Well now, listen.

During this night just past, in the small hours, _ ;

Hippocrates, son of Apollodorus and brother of
Phason, knocked violently at my door with his stick,
and when they opened to him he came hurrying in
at once and calling to me in a loud voice : Socrates,
are you awake, or sleeping? Then I, recognizing
his voice, said: Hippocrates, hallo! Some news to
break to me? Only good news, he replied. Tell
it, and welcome, I said : what is it, and what business
brings you here at such an hour? Protagoras has
come, he said, standing at my side. Yes, two days
ago, I said: have you only just heard? Yes, by
Heaven! he replied, last evening. /With this he
groped about for the bedstead, and sitting down by
my feet he said: It was in the evening, after I had
got in very late from Oenoé. My boy Satyrus, you
see, had run away: I meant to let you know I was
going in chase of him, but some other matter put it
outofmy head. On my return, when we had finished
dinner and were about to retire, my brother told me,
only then, that Protagoras had come. I made an
effort, even at that hour, to get to you at once, but
came to the conclusion that it was too late at night.
But as soon as I had slept off my fatigue I got up
at once and made my way straight here. Then I,
noting the man’s gallant spirit and the flutter he
was in, remarked: Well, what is that to you? Has
Protagoras wronged you? At this he laughed and,
Yes, by the gods! he said, by being the only wise
man, and not making me one. But, by Zeus! I
said, if you give him a fee and win him over he will

97

311

Q

PLATO

> a lA \ x ,
exeivov, moujoet Kal o€ oogsy. Ei yap, 7 s és,
& Zed kai Oeoi, ev tovTw em Ws our av Tav
eu@v emiAizoyu ovdev ote Tav dilwy: GAN
avra Tatra Kal vov yKw mapa od, wa brép euob
~ > - > \ ‘ ov A ‘ tA /-
diarexOjs at7@. eyw yap dua pev Kal vewrepos
ejur, apa d€ oddé éwpaka IIpwraydpay mamore
29? > / 2Q 7 vite’ 4 ‘ a a ‘
ov)’ axjkoa ovdev' ert yap mais 4, ote TO
/ > / > A / bo LA
mpoTepov emediunoev. adda ydp, ® LowKpares,
mavTes TOV avdpa emaivodar Kal hac. codwrarov
> , > \ U b Ul > > /
elvat Aéyew: adda ti od Badilouev map’ adrov,
o ” / 7 > e > \
iva evdov KataAdBwpev; Katadver 8’, ws eyw
jKovoa, Tapa KadXia t® ‘Imovicov: aA’ twpev.

» ek ‘ > / > / > a ” ‘
Kat eyw elzov: Mijmw, wyabd, exeioe twuev, mpm

yap cotw, adda Sedpo eEavacrdpmev eis tiv avdjv,
Kal mepudvres adrod Siatpipwuev, ews av das
yernta’ elta iwywev. Kal yap 7a moAda II
ayopas évdov diarpiBer, wore, Odpper, Karadrnybo-
peba adrov, ws TO eikds, evdov.

Mera ratra avacraytes eis tHv abdiv Tepippev
Kal éya aromeipaevos tod ‘ImmoKpdtous Tis
pwpns Sveckdrovy adrov Kat Hpwrwv, Eid pot,
édnv eyo, @ ‘Inoxpares, Tapa. Lpwraydpay
vov emtyetpets evan, dpytpvov TAY exeivep poGov
tmép ceavTod, ws mapa tiva adi€dpuevos Kal Tis
yevnoomevos; womep av el emevdets mapa Tov
cavTod ouwvupov e\Oav ‘Immoxpdtn tov Kor,
tov tav “AokdrAnmiaddv, dpytpiov tedcivy trép
cavTod poor exe, El tis oe Hpeto, Eimé pou,
peMeis tehetv, & ‘Inméxpares, ‘Inmoxparet pvoBov
ws tive OvTt; Ti dv amexpivw; Elmov av, edn, ore

98

PROTAGORAS

make you wise too. Would to Zeus and all the
gods, he exclaimed, only that were needed! I
should not spare either my own pocket or those of
my friends. But it is on this very account I have
come to you now, to see if you will have a talk with
him on my behalf: for one thing, I am too young
to do it myself; and for another, I have never yet
seen Protagoras nor heard him speak a word—I was
but a child when he paid us his previous visit. You
know, Socrates, how everyone praises the man and
tells of his mastery of speech: let us step over to
him at once, to make sure of finding him in; he is
staying, so I was told, with Callias, son of Hipponicus.
Now, let us be going. To this I replied: We had
better not go there yet, my good friend, it is so
very early : let us rise and turn into the court here,
and spend the time strolling there till daylight
comes ; after that we can go. Protagoras, you see,

nds most of his time indoors, so have no fear, we
shall find him in all right, most likely.

So then we got up and strolled in the court ; and
I, to test Hippocrates’ grit, began examining him
with a few questions. Tell me, Hippocrates, I said,
in your present design of going to Protagoras and

ying him money as a fee for his services to your-
self, to whom do you consider you are resorting, and
what is it that you are to become? Suppose, for
example, you had taken it into your head to call on
your namesake Hippocrates of Cos, the Asclepiad,
and pay him money as your personal fee, and suppose
someone asked you—Tell me, Hippocrates, in pur-
posing to pay a fee to Hippocrates, what do you
consider him to be? How would you answer that ?

A doctor, I would say.

99

312

PLATO

¢ > ~ e / / e > ,
ws vatp@. ‘Os ris yevnodpevos; ‘Os iarpés,
” a ”
én. Ei S€ mapa TodvKAecrov tov ’Apyetov 7
, a A
Deidiav tov "APnvaiov émevders aducdpwevos prabdv
e \ ~ a »”
Umep gauTod teleiv exeivois, el Tis GE TpEeTo*
teheiv TobTo TO apyvpiov ws Tie dvTe ev V@ Exes
I Ar > / ‘ 1D) 86 » / bal > / 3
oAvKAcitw Te Kat Dedia; ti av amexpivw;
Ei ba) € > r a me) , de
imov av ws ayaAuarorovois. s tis d€ yern-
adpevos adros; Afjdov dt dyaduaromows. Efev,
> ~ >
qv 8 ey: mapa 8é 51) Ipwraydpav viv aducd-
‘
juevot eyed Te Kal od apytpiov exeivw probdv Erousor
ecdueba tedeiv drép ood, dv pev e&txvarae Ta
HueTEpA xXphuata Kal tovTois meiOwpev adrov,
~ ,
et 5€ uj, Kal ta Tdv dilwy mpocavadicKorTes.
el odv Tis HULas Tepl TabTa otTw odddpa omov-
A
Salovtas €porro’ eimé por, @® UwKpares Te Kal
2
‘Immoxpates, ws tive dvtt. TH Ipwrayopa ev vo
~ / ~ >
exeTe xpypara TeAciv; ti av att@ amoxpwaipeba;
, 4 v , \ /
ti dvoua dAdo ye Aeyouevov tept Ipwraydpov
by] 7, v \ / > \ A
akovomev; worrep mept Deidiov ayaduarorrouov Kal
mept ‘Opurpov rounriv, ti towodrov epi Upwr-
, > , \ /, > / ,
aydpov aKkovonev; Lodioriv 87 Tor dvoudlovoi
” ¢
ye, ® LwxKpares, Tov avdpa elvar, dn. ‘Qs
codiotH apa epxoucba reAobvTes Ta xpHuara;
/ 2 > \ yeas , ,
MdXAtora. Et odv Kat totrd Tis oe mposépoito:
»” ‘
adros Sé€ 51) ws Tis yevnodpmevos epyn mapa Tov
/ *
IIpwraydpav; Kat ds elrev epvOpidcas—7dyn yap
brépawe Tt juepas, Wore Katadary adrov yevecOa

100

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a

vl

———————

PROTAGORAS

And what would you intend to become ?

A doctor, he replied.

And suppose you had a mind to approach Polycleitus
the Argive or Pheidias the Athenian and pay them a
personal fee, and somebody asked you—What is it
that you consider Polycleitus or Pheidias to be, that
you are minded to pay them this money? What
would your answer be to that?

Sculptors, I would reply.

And what would you intend to become ?

Obviously, a sculptor.

Very well then, I said ; you and I will go now to
Protagoras, prepared to pay him money as your fee,
~ from our own means if they are adequate for the
purpose of prevailing on him, but if not, then drawing
on our friends’ resources to make up the sum. Now
if anyone, observing our extreme earnestness in the
matter, should ask us,—Pray, Socrates and Hippo-
crates, what is it that you take Protagoras to be,
when you purpose to pay him money? What should
we reply to him? What is the other name that we
commonly hear attached to Protagoras? They call
_ Pheidias a sculptor and Homer a poet: what title
do they give Protagoras ?

A sophist, to be sure, Socrates, is what they call
him.

Then we go to him and pay him the money as a
sophist ?

Certainly.

Now suppose someone asked you this further
question: And what is it that you yourself hope to
become when you go to Protagoras ?

To this he replied with a blush—for by then there
was a glimmer of daylight by which I could see him

101

PLATO

> a onl
—Ei pév te rots eumpoobev goxe, SHAov Stu ao-
A /
guoris yevnoouevos. Xd 8d, Hv 8 eyw, mpds
BeGv, odk dv aicyvvowo eis Tods “EAAnvas cavrov
copioTny trapéxwv; Ni tov Ala, & Ld«pares,
elmep ye & Siavoobuar ypr) Aéyew. “AA dpa, @
‘I /, \ > t4 ¢ / \
TTOKpATeES, 41) ov ToLavTyV brroAapBavers Gov THV
‘ I / / ” > > a
mapa IIpwraydpov pabnow eoecbar, add’ oiamep
} Tapa. TOO ypaypatioTod eyevero Kal KiBapiorod
Kal maotpiBov; to’Twy yap od EKxdoTnV ovK
+ ee / ” e ‘ > /, > >
emt téxvn euabes, ws Sypwovpyos eadpevos, aAA
; Rasa} / e A > 4 ‘ A > 4
emt madela, ws Tov iduwrnv Kal tov €dedOepov
/, I , A > Py a ” 7,
Tpemrel. dvu pev odv por Soxe?, Efn, Tovavrn
paAov elvar 4 mapa IIpwraydpov pdbyais.
Oicba obv 6 péArets viv mparrew, 7 oe Aav-
Bava; hv & éeyd. Tod mépr; “Ore pedAeis rHv
guxynv tiv cavtod wapacyeiv Oepamedoar avdpi,
~ >
ds dys, copiorh* 6 tu Sé mote 6 aogiorys €oTt,
Oavpaloun.” av ei ofcba. Kaitou <i Tobr’ ayvoeis,
ovdé Orw rrapadidws tiv puxiv oloba, ovr’ «
> 0 ~ ” > > a 4 O27 , > ”
ayab@ ovr ei Kak@ mpaypate. pat y, edn,
edévar. Aye 34, tt yf elvar Tov cod.or np ;
"Eyd péev, 4 8 ds, womep Tovvowa A€éyer, TODTOV
4 ~ ~ > / > ~
elvan tov t&v coddv éemornuova. OdKodv, Hv
a /
8S éyd, robTo pev eEeote Adyew Kal wept Cwypddwv

102

ee

—

“a ee

PROTAGORAS

quite clearly—If it is like the previous cases, ob-
viously, to become a sophist.

In Heaven’s name, I said, would you not be
ashamed to present yourself before the Greeks as
a sophist ?

Yes, on my soul I should, Socrates, if I am to
speak my real thoughts.

Yet after all, Hippocrates, perhaps it is not this
sort of learning that you expect to get from Prot-
agoras, but rather the sort you had from your
language-master, your harp-teacher, and your sports-
instructor ; for when you took your lessons from
each of these it was not in the technical way, with
a view to becoming a professional, but for education,
as befits a private gentleman.

I quite agree, he said; it is rather this kind of
learning that one gets from Protagoras.

Then are you aware what you are now about to
do, or is it not clear to you? I asked.

To what do you refer ?

I mean your intention of submitting your soul to
the treatment of a man who, as you say, is a sophist ;
and as to what a sophist really is, I shall be surprised
if you can tell me. And yet, if you are ignorant of
this, you cannot know to whom you are entrusting
your soul,—whether it is.to something good or to
something evil.

I really think, he said, that I know.

Then tell me, please, what you consider a sophist
to be.

I should say, he replied, from what the name
implies, that he is one who has knowledge of wise
matters.

Well, I went on, we are able to say this of pairiters

103

313

PLATO

‘ ‘ ¥ ~ ~
Kal mept TexTovawy, Ott odTOL eiow of THY coddv
> / > > ” ” a ~ ,
as ara GAN’ et Tis ee Huds, Tav Tt
open! elaiv of Cwypadou ERLPEMONES stpomier
av mov atT@, ort Tov mpos Th dintpyeoet THY
TOV eikovwv, Kal TaAAa ovUTwWs. Et Sé TIS EKEivO
” ¢ ~ ~
Epoito, 6 S€ aodioris Tav Ti copay éeori; Ti av
> , ~
amoxpwoiuca abt@; molas épyacias émuorarys;
Ti bd) ” oF ON Z > py , nn >

L av etzoyrev adrov elvar, @ LodKpares, H emt-

4 ~ a

araTnv Tod moujoar Sewov A€yew; “lows av, Fv
> > , > “a ~

S’ éya, dAnOA Aéyomerv, od pevrow tkavds yer
> / a a
Epwtycews yap ert 4 amdKpiois Hiv Setrat, wept
bg e \ \ al , A ¢
oTov 6 aoduoris Sewov moet A€yews WoTep oO
Kapiotis Sewov Simov trove Aéyew mepi odzrep

\ > / \ / / N 7
Kal émoTHpova, mept KiOapicews> 4 yap; Nai.
Efev- 6 8é 81) codiorijs mepi tivos Sewov zrovet
Ar / AfhX i \ Fit ‘ o.¥ 6 1

éyew; AfjArov dott mept odmep Kal émioracbau';
Ez /, , 8 la > ~ ‘ 6 we We
ixds ye. Tt 5H €or TobTo, mepi od adrds Te
> , > ‘ e A ‘ A A
ETLOTHULWY E€OTW Oo TOPIOTAS Kat Tov pabnrnv
moet; Ma Av’, édn, odKéri-€xw oor rEyew.

Kai éyd efmov pera todro: Ti obv; olofa eis

/ / ” e /, A / ” >
olov twa Kivduvov épxn broOjowv thy puyyjv; 7 «i
bev TO O@pa emitpéerrew oe Eder TW, Staxwdvvevovta
” A : oe | , 0 an 4 AAG ba
xpynorov adro yevéobar 7 movnpdv, moAAa av
mepicoxebw, elt emitpemréov eire ov, Kal eis

1 éricracba Stahl: éricrarac Mss.
104

j

a ee ee as

PROTAGORAS

also, and of carpenters,—that they are the persons
who have knowledge of wise matters; and if some-
one asked us for what those matters are wise, of
which painters have knowledge, I suppose we should
tell him that they are wise for the production of
likenesses, and similarly with the rest. But if he
should ask for what the matters of the sophist are
wise, how should we answer him? What sort of
workmanship is he master of ?

How should we describe him, Socrates,—as a
master of making one a clever speaker ?

Perhaps, I replied, we should be speaking the
truth, but yet not all the truth; for our answer still
calls for a question, as to the subject on which the
sophist makes one a clever speaker: just as the harp-
player makes one clever, I presume, at speaking on
the matter of which he gives one knowledge, namely
= ba hi agree to that?

es.

Well, about what does the sophist make one a
clever speaker ?

Clearly it must be the same thing as that of which
he gives one knowledge.

So it would seem: now what is this thing, of which
the sophist himself has knowledge and gives know-
ledge to his pupil ?

Ah, there, in good faith, he said, I fail to find
you an answer.

I then went on to say: Now tell me, are you
aware upon what sort of hazard you are going to
stake your soul? If you had to entrust your body to
someone, taking the risk of its being made better or
worse, you would first consider most carefully whether
you ought to entrust it or not, and would-seek the

105

C

PLATO

A , A
cvpBovdny rods te didous av mapekdAes Kal Tovds
> ,
oixelous, akoTrovevos juepas avyvds: 6 dé epi
, ~ a“
mAciovos Tob owparos Hyet, THv yuynv, Kal ev @
4 es 4 ‘ ~ ~
TaVT €OTL TA Oa 7) ED 7) KaK@S TpAaTTEW, xpHoTOD
n“ ~ ~
] Tovnpod adrod yevomevov, mepi Sé tovrov ovTe
T® Tratpi ote TH adeAD@ errexowwow ovre hudv
Tov éTaipwy ovdevi, eir’ emutpentéov eire Kal ov
~ > , , td A \ 4 > >
™@ dpucopery TOUT Seve Thy ony oxi, aha
e ,
€omrépas axovoas, ws dys, OpOpios yKwy Tepi pev
r 35 / Xr /, Ns) A Xr \ ~ w”
tovtov ovdéva Adyov ovdé ovpPovdAjy Tovf, Etre
Xp7) emiTpémew cavTov adT@ cite pH, EToyLos O°
t > aAi /, ~ A A ~ trv
ef dvaXioxew Td Te cavTod Kal Ta TdV didwy
Xpjpara, Ws 70n SveyywKds, dre mavTws avveoTéov
4
IIpwraydpa, dv ovre yuyvwoKes, ws prs, ovTE
8 ir > 4 ‘\ 8’ > / A
vetAeEar ovderwrore, oopioriy dvopatets, TOV
S€ codioriv, & Ti more ort, paiver dyvody, @
pédArers ~cavTov émitpémew; Kal Os axodoas,
"Eouxev, bn, © LwKpares, €€ dv oad dAéyeis.
>
tA > > > ‘T , ¢ \ 7 nn
p’ obv, ® ‘Inmoxpartes, 6 coduioris Tuyxaver Gv
wn ’ > 74>
éumopds tis 7) KdmyAos Tév aywyinwr, ad’ dv
PN
yuxy tpéperar; paiverar yap Euovye Towvros TIS.
A 7 /,
Tpéderar S¢, & Uedxpares, puyn tin; Mabjpacr
o , > e a e
SHzov, jv 8 eyo. Kal drws ye pH, @ Eraipe, 0
~ A e ~
cogioris emawdv a wdc eLaraTion nuas,
¢ ~ , ¢ ,
Womep of TEpl THY TOD owparos Tpodry, 6 Eumopos
Te Kal KdmnAos. Kal yap obdroi mov dv ayovow
¢
dywyiwv otre adrol toacw 6 TL xpnoTov 7) TO-
vnpov mept TO cH, e7rawodar dé wavTa mwAodvtes,

106

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—s\

PROTAGORAS

advice of your friends and relations and ponder it
for a number of days: but in the case of your soul,
which you value much more highly than your body,
and on which depends the good or ill condition of
all your affairs, according as it is made better or
worse, would you omit to consult first with either
your father or your brother or one of us your com-
rades,—as to whether or no you should entrust your
very soul to this newly-arrived foreigner ; but choose
rather, having heard of him in the evening, as you
say, and coming to me at dawn, to make no mention
of this question, and take no counsel upon it—
whether you ought to entrust yourself to him or not ;
and are ready to spend your own substance and that
of your friends, in the settled conviction that at all
costs you must converse with Protagoras, whom you
neither know, as you tell me, nor have ever met in
argument before, and whom you call “ sophist,” in
patent ignorance of what this sophist may be to
whom you are about to entrust yourself ?

When he heard this he said: It seems so, Socrates,
by what you say.

Then can it be, Hippocrates, that the sophist is
really a sort of merchant or dealer in provisions on
which a soul is nourished? For such is the view I
take of him.

With what, Socrates, is a soul nourished ?

With doctrines, presumably, I replied. And we
must take care, my good friend, that the sophist, in
commending his wares, does not deceive us, as both
_ merchant and dealer do in the case of our bodily
food. For among the provisions, you know, in which
these men deal, not only are they themselves ignorant

what is good or bad for the body, since in selling they
107

314

PLATO

” ~
ovTE Of Wrovpevor Tap adtav, dav pH Tis THY
yupvacTiKos 7) tatpos wv. ovtw Sé Kal of Ta
pabyuara mepiudyovres KaTa Tas models Kal Tw-
Aobvres Kal Kamndedovtes TH del emiOvpobvre
> ~ ~
evrawodot ev mavTa & mwAodar, taxa 8 ay Twes,
a) dpiore, Kal TOUTWY dyvootev av mwdotow 6 Tt
XpnoTOV 2) Trovnpov mpos ry poxiy’ abs S adrws
Kal ot _@vovpevou map’ atrav, eav pay Tus TUXN
mept thy wuxiv ad latpiKos wv. et prev ody av
Tuyxdvers emioTiuwy tovTwy Ti xpnoTov Kal
movnpov, aofardés aor wvetofar pabypara Kal
\ , ‘ > »” c ~ > A
mapa Ilpwraydpouv Kal map’ aAdov drovobv: et de
a /
HH, Opa, @ paKkdpie, py ep Tots giATdrous
tf ‘ , ‘ A ‘ ‘
KuBevys Te Kal Kwduvetns. Kal yap 7 Kal mov
7 an a As 2
peilwy Kivdvvos ev TH TOV pabnuatwv avi 7 Ev
TH TOV ovrtiwy. owria ev yap Kal moTa mpidpevov
4 ~ / \ > / ” > mv
mapa Tob Kam7jAov Kal eumdpov e€eoTrw ev adAots
> , > , ‘ \ / y Bet >
ayyelois amodépew, Kat. mplv dé€ac8a adra «is
TO o@pa miovTa 7) dayovra, Katabeuevov otKade
mw 4 / ‘
efeott ovpPovdctoacba, mapaxadécavta Tov
ematovTa, 6 TL TE edeoréov 7 moréov Kal O Tt PM
Kal Omdcov Kal OmdTE* WOTE eV Th @vy od péyas
6 Kivdvvos. pabyuara S€ odKk eoTw eV ae
dyyely dmeveykety, aan’ dvdyen, katabévra THY
TYLHV, TO paonpa ev abth TH pvyh AaBovra Kai
pabovra amevat 7 BeBrappevov 4 wdheAnpevov.
taba oov oxoTaieBa Kal pera, TOV mpeoBurépev
Hav: hyets yap ett véor WoTe TocobTov mpayya
SieAdofar. viv pevTor, WoTEep Wpyjcaper, twmev

108

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:
q
z
:
‘
¥

PROTAGORAS

commend them all, but the people who buy from
them are so too, unless one happens to be a trainer
or a doctor. And in the same way, those who take
their doctrines the round of our cities, hawking them
about to any odd purchaser who desires them, com-
mend everything that they sell, and there may well
be some of these too, my good sir, who are ignorant
which of their wares is good or bad for the soul ;
and in just the same case are the people who buy
from them, unless one happens to have a doctor’s
knowledge here also, but of the soul. So then, if
you are well informed as to what is good or bad
among these wares, it will be safe for you to buy
doctrines from Protagoras or from anyone else you
please: but if not, take care, my dear fellow, that
you do not risk your greatest treasure on a toss of
the dice. For I tell you there is far more serious
risk in the purchase of doctrines than in that of
eatables. When you buy victuals and liquors you
can carry them off from the dealer or merchant in
separate vessels, and before you take them into
your body by drinking or eating you can lay them
by in your house and take the advice of an expert
whom you can call in, as to what is fit to eat or
drink and what is not, and how much you should
take and when; so that in this purchase the risk is
not serious. But you cannot carry away doctrines
in a separate vessel: you are compelled, when you
have handed over the price, to take the doctrine in
your very soul by learning it, and so to depart either
aninjured ora benefited man. These, then, are ques-
tions which we have to consider with the aid of our
elders, since we ourselves are still rather young to
unravel so great a matter. For the moment, how-

VOL. IV E 109

PLATO |

‘ > A
Kal akovowpev Tod avdpds, Emeita dKovoavres
‘ ” > tA \ 4 > /
Kat ddAows avaxowwowpeba: Kai yap od povos
¢
IIpwraydpas atro& éotiv, adda Kai ‘Immias 6
> a a .
Hetos: ofuar Sé Kat Ipdducov tov Keiov: Kai |
aAXot mrodAoi Kat codoi. :
Adéav aypiv raira émopevdpeba: erred) Sé ev
TH mpolvpw eyevoucba, emuoravres mepi Tivos
Adyov Siercyopcba, ds Hiv Kata THY Oddv everecev*
a> = \ > \ / > \ -
wv’ ovv pa atedAns yevoito, adda diamepavapevor
oUTws eoiomev, oTdvTes ev TO TpoOUpw Suercyd-
a“ >
pcBa, Ews cvvwporoynoapev aAAjAots. SoKet odv
pot, 6 Oupwpds, edvobdxos Tis, KATH KOVEV HUL@V, KW-
Suvever 5é Sia TO ARDS TOV codioTrdv aylecbar
tois doirHow eis tiv olkiav: émeid) yodv éxpov-
4 , > / ‘> ‘ e ~ ” ”
capev TH Ovpay, avoikas Kat sav judas, "Ea, édy,
’ ; ? An) > ~. NS. > pot
cogiorai Twes* od oxod}) att: Kai awa apdoiv
cal cal \ / / tA >
Toi xepotv Tv Apav mavy mpobiuws ws olds T
> / ‘ ¢ a / > 4, + |
qv enjpage. Kal nets mdAw éxpovomev, Kal ds
~ > ,
éycexAnuevys Ths Ovpas dmoxpwopevos etzev,
°Q dvOpwror, edn, odk axnkdate, dtt od axodr)
atta; “AM dyad, ébnv eye, obre mapa KaAXiav
HKopev odTe cogioTai eopev: aAAa Odpper- Upwr-
aA ”
aydépav ydp tor Sedpuevor idetv HADopev- <ic-
dyyeiAov ody. poyis obv mote jyutv avOpwros
4
dvéwte tiv Ovpav: ézeid1) Sé eio7}ADopev, KareAd-
~ / ~
Bowev Ilpwraydpay €v 7@ mpooT@w mepimarodbvra,
~ n > A ~ 2%
é€jis 8 atr@ ovprepierdrow ex pev Tov emt

x

abe —_— a
a PRL eR

110

PROTAGORAS

ever, let us pursue our design and go and hear this
person; and when we have heard him we shall
proceed to consult others : for Protagoras is not the
only one there; we shall find Hippias of Elis and,
I believe, Prodicus of Ceos, and numerous other men
of wisdom besides.

This we resolved on, and set forth; and when we
arrived at the doorway, we stood discussing some
question or other that had occurred to us by the
way: so, not to leave it unfinished, but to get it
settled before we went in, we stood there and dis-
cussed in front of the door, until we had come to an
agreement with each other. Now, I fancy the door-
keeper, who was a eunuch, overheard us; very likely
the great number of sophists has made him annoyed
with callers at the house : at any rate, when we had
knocked on the door, he opened it and, on seeing us,
—Hiullo, he said, sophists there! Master is engaged.
So saying, he seized the door with both hands and
very smartly clapped it to with all his might. We
tried knocking again, and then he spoke in answer
through the closed door,—Sirs, have you not heard,
he is engaged? But, my good fellow, I said, we
have not come to see Callias, nor are we sophists.
Have no fear: I tell you, we have come to ask if
we may see Protagoras; so go and announce us.
Then with much hesitation the fellow opened the
door to us; and when we had entered, we came
upon Protagoras as he was walking round in the
cloister and close behind him two companies were
walking round also; onthe one side Callias, son of

1 The from the front door led into a cloister which
surrounded an open court and gave access to the various
rooms of the house.

111

315

Q

PLATO

Oarep a KaAAias 6 ‘Inmovixou Kal oO aBedgds
avrod 6 Omopirjrptos, Ildpados 6 IlepucAgous, kal
Xappidns 6 TAavcwvos, ex S€ Tob emt Oarepa 6
ETEpos TOV TlepuxAgous EdvOummos Kal Didurmidns
6 Dirou7rov Kai "Avripoupos 6 Mevdaios, domep
evdoxyset pddvora TH [Tpwrayopou pabnrav Kal
emt TEXVN pavbaver, Ws aodioTns eadpevos. TOU-
Twv d€ ov Omabev 7KoAovBouv emaKOvOVTES Tov
Acyopevay, TO pev mond févor efaivovto, ots diyet
e€ éxdoTwyv THY modewv 6 [Tpwraydpas, bv ov
Suef epxerar, KnAav Th duwvi worep “Opdeds, ot
d€ KaTa Thy gern ETOVTAL KexnAnpevor: qoav
b€ TWeES Kau TOV emixwptov ev TO Xop@._ TodTov
Tov xopov pddAvora eywye dav joOny, ws KadAds
7bAaBobvro pendérrore eurrodav ev T®@ mpoobev
elvae Ilpwraycpov, GAN’ érretd2) abros dvaorpéot
Kal ot per? exeivou, ed TWS Kab ev KOopw Tmepl-

eoxilovro oboe of émyjKoor evOev Kai evOev, Kat ev

KUKAW mepudvTes del eis TO Omtcbev KabicrayTo
kaAAvora..

Tov d€ per’ cigevonoc., edn “Opnpos, ‘Inmiav
TOV “Heior, anprevoy év 78 KaT avTuKpv Tpo-
oTwm ev Opdve mepl avrov 5° éxdOnvro em
Bab pew "Epugivaxds TE O "Axoupevod Kal Daidpos
6 Muppwovotos Kai “Avdpwv ) “AvSporicovos kal
tav Eevwv modirai te adbrod Kai addAo Twes.
edaivovro dé mepi dicews Te Kal TOY peTEWpwv
GOTPOVOMLKa ATTA. Svepwr dv Tov ‘Inmiav, 6 8 ev
Opove Kabrevos éxdorous abray Svxpive Kal
SucEjer Ta Cpwrapeva. Kat wev 52) Kal Tavraddv

1 Od. xi. 601.
112

PROTAGORAS

Hipponicus and his brother on the mother’s side,
Paralus, son of Pericles, and Charmides, son of
Glaucon, while the other troop consisted of Pericles’
other son Xanthippus, Philippides, son of Philomelus,
and Antimoerus of Mende, who is the most highly
reputed of Protagoras’ disciples and is taking the
course professionally with a view to becoming a
sophist. The persons who followed in their rear,
listening to what they could of the talk, seemed to
be mostly strangers, brought by the great Protagoras
from the several cities which he traverses, enchant-
ing them with his voice like Orpheus, while they
follow where the voice sounds, enchanted; and
some of our own inhabitants were also dancing
attendance. As for me, when I saw their evolu-
tions I was delighted with the admirable care
they took not to hinder Protagoras at any
moment by getting in front; but whenever the
master turned about and those with him, it was
fine to see the orderly manner in which his train of
listeners split up into two parties on this side and
on that, and wheeling round formed up again each
time in his rear most admirably.

“ And next did I mark,” as Homer! says, Hippias of
Elis, seated high on a chair in the doorway opposite ;
and sitting around him on benches were Eryximachus,
son of Acumenus, Phaedrus of Myrrhinous, Andron
son of Androtion and a number of strangers,—
fellow-citizens of Hippias and some others. They
seemed to be asking him a series of astronomical
questions on nature and the heavenly bodies, while
he, seated in his chair, was distinguishing and ex-
pounding to each in turn the subjects of their
questions. ‘Nay more, Tantalus also did I there

113

D

316

PLATO

ye etceidov" éeSr}et yap dpa Kal ITpd8uxos 6
Keios- iy dé ev oikjpati Tun, @ 7™po TOO pev ws
Tapwetep expyTo ‘Inmrovuros, vov be b76 Too mous
TOV KaTadvovTwy 6 Kaddias Kal TobTo exiev@oas
&€vois ardAvow memoinkev. oO sev oby IIpo-
Suxos ert KaTeKelTo, _eyKexaAuppevos ev Kwodlois
Tol Kal OTPWULacL Kat pdr moAXots, ws edaivero:
mapexabnvro dé att@ emi tats mAnaiov KXivais
Tlavoavias TE Oo ex Kepapéwy Kal pera Tlavoaviouv
véov Te ere petpaxvov,, ws pev eva, KaAdv Te
kayabov TH vow, tiv 8 obdv idéav mavu Kanos.
edoga aKovoat dvopa avr@ elvac “Ayabwva, Kal
ovK av Bavpaloune, el mauducd Ilavoaviov TVYXaVEL
av. Tobdrd a > hv TO perpaxvov, Kal Ta "Adetmavrw
dudorépw, 6 6 te Krjmidos Kal 6 Aevxodogidon, Kat
aAAot TWeES epaivovto’ mepi dé dv SueA€yorro | ovK
eduvanv eywye pabeivy eEwhev, Kaimep urapds
exwv dcodew Too Ipodixou- méaoogpos ydp pou
Soke? avip elvar Kal Deios: a.AAd. Sud THY Bapirnra
THS puviis BopBos Tis & TH OiKHpaTL yuyvopevos
doadhh emrole Ta. Acydpeva..

Kai apeis pev dpre etoeAnAvemper, Karon dé
Hav emeoTAOov “AdceBuddys TE O Kaos, ws dys
ov kal eyo mreBopan, Kal Kpurias 6 6 KaAMaioxpov.
Hucts otv ws elo7nAPouev, ett opixp’ arra dia-
tpibavres Kat Tatra Sd.iabeacdpevor mpoofmev
mpos Tov Ilpwraydpav, kal. ey elmov: *Q Ipwr-
aydpa, mpos o€ Tor HAPopev eyes te Kat ‘Imoxparys
odTos. Il6repov, €on, pov BovAcuevor dva-
AexOfvar 7 Kat peta TOV dAAwv; “Hyiv pev, jv 8°

1 Od. xi. 582. A touch of epic dignity is humorously
114

PROTAGORAS

behold,” 1—for you know Prodicus of Ceos is in
Athens too: he was in a certain apartment formerly
used by Hipponicus as a strong-room, but now cleared
out by Callias to make more space for his numerous
visitors, and turned into a guest-chamber. Well,
Prodicus was still abed, wrapped up in sundry fleeces
and rugs, and plenty of them too, it seemed; and
near him on the beds hard by lay Pausanias from
Cerames, and with Pausanias a lad who was still quite
young,—of good birth and breeding, I should say, and
at all events a very good-looking person. I fancied I
heard his name was Agathon, and I should not be
surprised to find he is Pausanias’ favourite. Besides
this youth there were the two Adeimantuses, sons of
Cepis and Leucolophidas, and there seemed to be
some others. The subjects of their conversation I
was unable to gather from outside, despite my
longing to hear Prodicus; for I regard the man
as all-wise and divine: but owing to the depth
of his voice the room was filled with a booming
sound which made the talk indistinct. ;

We had only just come in, when close on our heels
entered Alcibiades the good-looking, as you call him
and I agree that he is, and Critias, son of Cal-
laeschrus. So, when we had entered, after some
more little delays over certain points we had to
examine, we went up to Protagoras, and I said:
=F calm you see we have come to you, Hippocrates
and I.

Is it your wish, he asked, to converse with me alone,
or in company with others ?

It is all the same to us, I replied: let me first

given to the mention of the two famous sophists, Hippias
and Prodicus.

115

PLATO

eyw, ovdev Siadéper axovoas dé, od Evexa 7ADomev,
> ‘ / U G2 PS) / > ” i] _&
autos oxeysar. Tt odv dy €orw, edn, od Evexa
qKete; “Immoxpdrns dd¢ éoti péev TOV emrywpiwr,
2A. AA 5 4 cs te /, ‘ > ,
ToAAodwpov vids, oikias peydAns Te Kal €ddai-
ER | \ \ , eS ae
provos, adtos Se tHv dow Soxet evdpwAdos civar
Tots HAKibrais. emOupetvy Sé. por Soxet édA-
Adyiyos yevéoba. ev TH moAcK, TobTo Se oterai
ot pdadior’ av yevéobat, ei col ovyyévouto: tatr’
ody 70n od oKdTreEL, TOTEpOV TrEpl adTaV [LOVvos oleEL
dety SduadrdéyeoBar mpds povovs, 7 per’ dMuv.
‘Op8as, edn, mpopn®h, 2) UaKpares, drrép epod.
gévov yap avdpa Kai iovra els modes peyddas, Kal
ev tavrais meiovra ta&v véwv tods BeATioTous
admoXeimovtas tas Tay dAAwy ovvovaias, Kal
oiketwy Kat dOveiwy, Kat mpecBuTépwv Kal vew-
Tépwv, €avT@ ouveivar ws BeAriovs ecomevous dia
THY €avtod ovvovaiay, xpi) evAaBetoba Tov radra
mpdatTovTa* ov yap opuKpot mepi atta POdvor Te
‘ Ul
ylyvovras Kai dAdo Svopeverat Te Kai émBovdAat.
> ‘ A \ ‘ / \ \
eyo Sé tiv codiotixiy téxvnv dnt pev etvar
madadv, tovs dé peraxerpilomevovs adriy Tay
~ > ~ , ) > \ 7 A
Tadadv avdpdv, poBovpevovs To emaxbes adrijs,
mpooxnua moretcba Kai mpoxaddrrecbar, tods
A / a / ae, /, ‘
pev mroinow, olov “Opnpdv tre Kai ‘Hoiodov Kai
Liywvidnv, Tods Sé ad redeTds Te Kal xpnopwdias,
tovs audi te "Opdéa cat Movoaiov- evious Sé
twas 7oOnpwar Kal yupvaotikyy, olov “IkKxos Te 6
Tapavrivos Kai 6 viv ett adv oddevos rTwv ao-
4 ‘H 48 « pe Xr , A BY > ~
diatyns ‘Hpddixos 6 LnAvpBpraves, 76 Sé apyatov
Meyapevs: povoixny Sé ’AyaboxAjs te 6 juéTepos

116

PROTAGORAS

tell you our object in coming, and then you must
decide.

Well, what is your object ? he asked.

My friend Hippocrates is a native of the city, a
son of Apollodorus and one of a great and prosperous

family, while his own natural powers seem to make

him a match for anyone of his age. I fancy he is
anxious to gain consideration in our city, and he
believes he can best gain it by consorting with you.
So now it is for you to judge whether it will be
fittest for you to converse on this matter privately
with us alone, or in company with others.

You do right, Socrates, he said, to be so thoughtful
on my behalf. For when one goes as a stranger into
great cities, and there tries to persuade the best of
the young men to drop their other connexions, either
with their own folk or with foreigners, both old and
young, and to join one’s own circle, with the promise
of improving them by this connexion with oneself,
such a proceeding requires great caution ; since very
considerable jealousies are apt to ensue, and numer-
ous enmities and intrigues. Now I tell you that
sophistry is an ancient art, and those men of ancient
times who practised it, fearing the odium it involved,
disguised it in a decent dress, sometimes of poetry, as
in the case of Homer, Hesiod, and Simonides ; some-
times of mystic rites and soothsayings, as did Orpheus,
Musaeus and their sects; and sometimes too, I have
observed, of athletics, as with Iccus! of Tarentum
and another still living—as great a sophist as any
—Herodicus? of Selymbria, originally of Megara;
and music was the disguise employed by your own

1 A famous athlete and trainer.
? A trainer who also practised medicine.
VOL. IV E2 117

317

PLATO

mpooxnua emoujoato, péyas wv codioTys, Kat
/ ig ~ ‘ 4 /
TluBoxAeidns 6 Keios Kai adAAot moddol. obrot
/, oe / P. ‘ / a
mavres, woTrep Aeyw, hoByOevres tov POdvov Tais
Téxvals TavVTALs TapaTeTdopacw expyoavTo* eya
d€ TovToOLs Amaot Kata TodTO elva ov Evudepopat:
e ~ \ ° A ” , a: la
Hyotpat yap adrovds ov te dvampd€acba 6 €BovAn-
O@noav: od yap Aabetv trav avOpdmwv rods duva-
pévous ev Tais mdAcou mparrew, @vmep Evexa TAOT
€oTl Ta mMpooynuara: ezel of ye moAAol ws Eros
> a 394 > , > > 4 > nn =
eimetvy ovdev aicbdvovra, aA’ arr ay ovdrot
/ ~ e ~ A > > /
SiayyéMwor, Tadra tvyvodor. To ody amodidpa-
OKOVTa 47) SwvacBar dmrodpavar, dda, Karapavy
elvat, moAA}) ppwpia Kal Tod ETLXELPILATOS, Kad
moAd Svopeveotépous + trapéxeo0ar avayKn Tovs
avOperrous* yobvras yap Tov ToLobrov mpos Tots
dAXows Kal mavodpyov elvar. eyw obv TovTwY TV
évavtiav dmacav odov éeAjAvba, Kai dporoyd Te
codioTis elvat Kail mawevew avOpwrovs, Kal
> /, , ld > 3 > ‘
evAdBevav tavrnv olwae BeAtiw exeivns elvar, TO
‘ *
oporoyeiv paMov 7 e€apvov etvau- Kal das
mpos Tavrn Eokepnpar, aoe, ovv Oe <cizeiv,
pndev Sewov maoXEL Sua TO oporoyety “coguaris
elvat. Kaitou 7oAAd ye Ern On eli ev TH TEXVN’
Kal yap Kal Ta EvprravTa ToAAd poi eoTw: ovdevos
Gtov od mavTwy av tudv Kal yAcKiav maTHp €inv:
AA 4, Ld / > ” /, ‘
ote TOAY ow WOvoTov eoTw, €t Te BovAcabe, rept
ToUTwY amTdvTwy évayTiov Tay évdov ovTwY TOV
Adyov movetoBan. Kal eyis—braimrevoa yap Bov-
Acobar atrov TH Te IIpodixe | Kal TO ‘Inia
ev8eiEacbar Kal KadAwricacba, dru epactat adrod
> ld ” La be al ” > 4 > ‘ ,
advypevor einuev—Ti odv, Epnv eyed, od cai IIpd-

118

a a

PROTAGORAS

Agathocles,’ a great sophist, Pythocleides! of Ceos,
andmany more. All these, as I say, from fear of ill-
will made use of these arts as outer coverings. But I
_ do not conform to thegnethod of all these persons,
- ‘since I believe they did not accomplish any of their
designs: for the purpose of all this disguise could
not escape the able men of affairs in each city ; the
multitude, of course, perceive practically nothing,
but merely echo this or that pronouncement of their
leaders. Now to try to run away, and to fail through
being caught in the act, shows sad folly in the mere
attempt, and must needs make people far more
hostile ; for they regard such an one, whatever else
he may be, as arogue. Hence the road I have taken
is one entirely opposite to theirs: I admit that I am
a sophist and that I educate men; and I consider
this precaution, of admitting rather than denying,
the better of the two. There are others besides that
I have meditated, so as to avoid, under Heaven, any

harm that may come of admitting that I am a sophist.
_ And yet many long years have I now been in the

rofession, for many in total number are those that
I have lived: not one of you all, but in age I might
be his father.2, Hence it suits me by far the best,
in meeting your wishes, to make my discourse on
_ these matters in the presence of all who are in the
house.

On this, as I suspected that he wished to make a
display before Prodicus and Hippias, and give him-
self airs on the personal attachment shown by our
coming to him, I remarked: Then surely we must call

1 A music-teacher.
= In the Meno (918) we are told that Protagoras lived
nearly seventy years, forty of which he spent in teaching.

119

318

PLATO

‘ e , > / ‘ 4 2
Sixov Kat ‘“Immiav éxadéoapev Kal rods per
attav, wa éeraxovowow Huadv; dvu peév ody,
ép¢n 6 IIpwraydpas. Bovdeobe odv, 6 KaddXias
” / / 773) @ lé
edn, avvedpiov KatacKkevdo@pev, wa KabelCopevor

° a

diaréynobe; *EddKet xphvar- dopevor S€ mavtes

a > ~

Huets, WSs akovadpuevor avdp@v soddv, Kal adroit

> 4 “ / 1 - ~ ~

te avriaBopevo. tdv Babpwv Kal tadv KrAWwdv

/ \ a ¢ , > cal A

KaTeokevdlopev mapa 7@ Tnrmiq: éxet yap mpo-
7” \

imfpxe ta Babpa. ev Sé ro’rw KaAdXias te Kal

"AAkiBiddns yKérnv dyovre tov IIpdduKov, ava-

> ~ A lol

oTjoavtes €K THS KAiwns, Kat Tods peTa TOO
II podixov.

’Ezrel 5é ardvres ouverabelouea, 6 6 Mpwrayépas,
Nov 87 av, &dbn, Aé€yous, & Ued«pares, emerd7 Kal
olde mdperor, epi wv oAlyov mpoTrepov pvelay
€owod mpos enue bmép Too veavioxov. Kal éyw

hid ¢€ > ta > | he] > ,
elzov ore ‘H adry pou apxy eoTw, @ Hpwraydpa,
qTEp dprt, mept av dpucopay. ‘Inmoxpdrns yap
60¢€ Tuyxdvet ev emiOupia av TAs ofs ouvovoias:
6 Tt odv adT® amoByoerar, edv cor avvq, déws
av dna mubéc8ar. toaodtos 6 ye HuEeTEpos Adyos.

>

broAaBwv obv 6 IIpwraydpas eimev: *Q veavioxe,
a > ‘
€orat Tolvuv cot, eav euol avvis, F av Huepa esol
>
ovyyévn, amévat otxade BeAriove yeyovort, Kal év
Th botTepaia tavTa Tabra: Kat exdoTyS Huépas

> \ ee \ / > / \ > \ > /
aet emt To BéATiov emididdvat. Kal e€yd aKxovoas
> , rs \ 291 \
efzov: *Q IIpwraydpa, tobro pwev oddev Pavuacrov
Aéyeis, GAAG eixds, ere Kav av, Kaimep THALKODTOS

120

PROTAGORAS

Prodicus and Hippias and their followers to come and
listen to us !

By all means, said Protagoras.

Then do you agree, said Callias, to our making
a session of it, so that we may sit at ease for our
conversation ?

The proposal was accepted ; and all of us, delighted
at the prospect of listening to wise men, took hold
of the benches and couches ourselves and arranged
them where Hippias was, since the benches were
there already. Meanwhile Callias and Alcibiades
came, bringing with them Prodicus, whom they had
induced to rise from his couch, and Prodicus’ circle
also. ~

When we had all taken our seats—So now,
Socrates, said Protagoras, since these gentlemen are
also present, be so good as to tell what you were
mentioning to me a little while before on the young
man’s behalf.

To which I replied: The same point, Protagoras,
will serve me for a beginning as a moment ago, in
regard to the object of my visit. My friend Hippo-
erates finds himself desirous of joining your classes ;
and therefore he says he would be glad to know
what result he will get from joining them. That is
all the speech we have to make.

Then Protagoras answered at once, saying : Young
man, you will gain this by coming to my classes,
that on the day when you join them you will go
home a better man, and on the day after it will be
the same; every day you will constantly improve
more and more.

When I heard this I said: Protagoras, what you
say is not at all surprising, but quite likely, since even

121

PLATO

”“ \ Ad / ”
wv Kal ovTW odds, «El Tis oe SiddEELeV 6 pt) TUY-
, > 4, , ”“ , > A ‘
Xavots emoTdpevos, BeATiwv dv yévoios adAa pr
id > > id b
ovtws, aA’ womep av ei adrixa dda peraBaddy
\ > , ¢ =
THv emOupiav ‘Inmoxpatns dd¢ éemBupjoee Tis
/ 7, lon “a ~
cuvovoias TovTov Tod veaviokov Tod viv vewoTi
> 8 ~ Z. , ~ ‘H r , \
emdnuobvtos, Lev€inmov tod “HpakAedrov, Kai
> / > ~
adiKkopevos tap avTov, womep mapa ae vor,
> 7 ~ “~ ~
akovoeev avtod ratra Tadra, admep aod, srt
¢ , e /, ‘ > ~ / ” \
exdoTns juepas ~vvdv adt@ BeAtiwv €orar Kal
> 8 7 Ss > > \ > / B , 87, A Xr /
emOwaet* et adtov éemavépoito* ti 87 dis BeATiw
” A ~
€ceobar Kat eis Ti emdwoew; elmo av atT@ oO
/ id ‘ , BD) : /
LevEirmos, Tt mpos ypadurnv: Kav et “Opbayopa
a b]

T® OnBaiw ovyyevouevos, adxovoas exeivov TavTa
A ~ > ,
TadTa, amep aod, emavepoito adrov eis 6 Te BeATiwv
Kal’ iuépay eoTar ovyyvyvouevos exeivw, eimor
‘ 4 ‘ \ ~
av, ort els avAnow: ovTw 517 Kai od eimé TH veavi-

> ~ c /
oK@ Kal ewot dep TovTOV epwrdvtt, ‘ImmoKpdtys
Ld / / ” > “~ ¢ 7
ode Ilpwraydpa ovyyevouievos, } av adt@ Tepe
/ ~
ovyyevntat, BeATiwv adrevot yevomevos Kal TayY
~ > > ‘
GdArwv jpep@v Exdorns ovtws emdacer eis Ti, @
‘ ~ \ ¢ /
IIpwraydpa, Kal mepi Trot; Kai 6 Ilpwraydpas
~ ~ ~ > ~
€uod Tatra axovoas, LU te KaAds epwrds, edn,
~ ~ > ~ ¥
@ Uwxpates, Kal éyw Tots Kadds epwrdar yxaipw
7 A > > A >
amoxpwopevos. ‘Immoxpdtns yap map’ ene ad-
ukdjrevos od meloeTaL, amep av erabev adAw Tw
~ a. A ‘
ovyyevouevos TOV codioTav? of pev yap aAdor
~ / \ \ 4 > \
AwBavrar Tovds véovs* Tas yap réxvas abrods
mrepevyoras dkovras maAw ad dyovres euBadovaw
eis réxvas, Aoywopovs Te Kal doTpovomiay Kal

122

PROTAGORAS

you, though so old and so wise, would be made better
if someone taught you what you happen not to
know. Bnt let me put it another way: suppose
Hippocrates here should change his desire all at once,
and become desirous of this young fellow’s lessons
who has just recently come to town, Zeuxippus of
Heraclea, and should approach him, as he now does
you, and should hear the very same thing from him
as from you,—how on each day that he spent with
him he would be better and make constant progress ;
and suppose he were to question him on this and
ask: In what shall I become better as you say, and
to what will my progress be? Zeuxippus’s reply
would be, to painting. Then suppose he came to
the lessons of Orthagoras the Theban, and heard
the same thing from him as from you, and then
inquired of him for what he would be better each
day through attending his classes, the answer would
be, for fluting. In the same way you also must
satisfy this youth and me on this point, and tell us
for what, Protagoras, and in what connexion my
friend Hippocrates, on any day of attendance at the
classes of Protagoras, will go away a better man,
and on each of the succeeding days will make a like
advance.

When Protagoras heard my words,—You do right,
he said, to ask that, while I am only too glad to
answer those who ask the right question. For
Hippocrates, if he comes to’ me, will not be
treated as he would have been if he had joined
the classes of an ordinary sophist. The generality
of them maltreat the young; for when they have
escaped from the arts they bring them back against
their will and force them into arts, teaching them

123

319

PLATO

yewperplay Kal povoucny bi8doxovres—al apa
els TOV ‘Inia dzréBAeyse—mrapa oe epe dduxdpevos
pabrncerat ov mept aAAov Tov 7 mepl ob 7 Kel. TO
be pabnud €orw _vBovria arept Te TOV olxetov
omws av apiora THY adtod oikiav SioiKot, Kal wept
Trav Tis Trohews, OmTws Ta. Tijs moAews SuvaTrwraTos
dv ein Kat mparrew Kal Aéyew.

*Ap’, ednv eyw, emopai cov TH Adyw; Soxets yap

f f

pou Adyew THY moluruchy Téexvyy Kal Umioyveta0at
move tv dvdpas dyabods moXiras.

Auro pev obv tobdré éotw, edn, d p PRUNES TO
endyyeAua, 6 re) emayyeMopar. fh tie

°H xahov, qv & eyo, TEXVN ILA. dpa KEKTHOAL,
elrrep keKTNoaL" ov yap TL aAXo mpos ye o€ €ipr-
OETaL Y dmep vod. eyw yap Tobro, 2) Ipwrayopa,
ovK wunV dudaKrov elvat, oot dé A€yovre ovK exw
oTTws [av] amoT®. d0ev Sé adrd Hyoduat ov
Sidaxrov elvar und’ tr’ avOpmmwv mapacKevacrov
avOpdrrois, Sixads ei eimetv. eyd yap "A@n-
vaious, woTep | Kal of dAAow "EAnves, pnt go-
dovs elvar. op ovv, oTav _ouvMeyapev els THY
exkAnoiav, emedav ev trept oikodopias te Sén
mpata. THv moAw, Tovs oiKoddpovs peTamE"TO-
pLévous aupBovdAous rept TOV oikodounudrwv, orav
d€ wept vavmnyias, Tods vauvmnyos, Kal TaAda
mavrTa. ovrws, doa Hyobvra pwabnra Te kal dvdaKTa
elvary eav dé tis dos | emeXELA avrois ovup-
BovAcveww, ov exetvo ay olovrat Sypevoupyov elvat,
Kav mavu KaXos 7 Kal tAovowos Kal TOV yevvaiwr,
ovoey TL paAdov amodéxyovra, adAa KatayeAdas

1 4y secl. Heindorf,
124

. eee er

> Shem

PROTAGORAS

arithmetic and astronomy and geometry and music
(and here he glanced at Hippias); whereas, if he
applies to me, he will learn precisely and solely that
for which he has come. That learning consists of
good judgement in his own affairs, showing how best
to order his own home; and in the affairs of his
city, showing how he may have most influence on
public affairs both in speech and in action.

I wonder, I said, whether I follow what you are
saying ; for you appear to be speaking of the civic
science, and undertaking to make men good citizens.

That, Socrates, he replied, is exactly the purport
of avhat I profess.

Then it is a goodly accomplishment that you have
acquired, to be sure, I remarked, if indeed you have
acquired it—to such a man as you I may say sincerely
what I think. For this is a thing, Protagoras, that
I did not suppose to be teachable; but when you .
say it is, I do not see how I am to disbelieve it.
How I came to think that it cannot be taught, or
provided by men for men, I may be allowed to ex-
plain. I say, in common with the rest of the Greeks,
that the Athenians are wise. Now I observe, when
we are collected for the Assembly, and the city has
to deal with an affair of building, we send for builders
to advise us on what is proposed to be built ; and
when it is a case of laying down a ship, we send for

' shipwrights; and so in all other matters which are

considered learnable and teachable: but if anyone
else, whom the people do not regard as a craftsman,
attempts to advise them, no matter how hand-
some and wealthy and well-born he may be, not one
_ of these things induces them to accept him; they
merely laugh him to scorn and shout him down,

125

3

S

0

PLATO

Kal 80 vB ~ oe vn A 3 4 > ~ L 4 >
puBotow, ews av 7 adros admooTh 6 ém-
~ A tf ia] @ , “a e , > ‘
xeipav A€yew KatabopvPybeis, 7 of to€dTar adrov
> 4, ~
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/ A
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A ~
ovTw Suamparrovra.: émevdav dé te wept THs moAews
/
duoxncews Sé€n Bovdcdoacbar, ovpBovdcver ad-
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e / A
opmotws Se xadKevs, oKvToTouos, eumopos, vav-
a ‘
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tovTos ovdels TtodTo eémimAnTTe. Womep Tots
, 7 Ps) Aa if] , nde »” 8
mporepov, O7t ovdapdbev pabdiv, oddé dvTos Bu-
/ > ‘ > ~ ” /
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a ~ ~ A
ETL ELpET™ dijov yap, OTe obx Hyobvrat dudaKrov
elvae. By Toivuy OTL TO KoWoV THs mOAews
ovrws EXE, aAAa idia. mpy ot copdsrarou Kal
apioto. TOV TokTHv Tavrnv THY apeTHy hv Exovow
ody oloi te aAXowts mapadiddvar: eet Llepixdjs,
~ A
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4
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~ /
apeth. et dé Bovdrer, Krewiav, tov *AAKiBiadov
A
TouTovt vewrepov adeAddv, emiTpoTrevwv 6 adrTos
obtos avnp Ilepuxdjs, Seduds mept adrod pur)
SiadbapH 57) tbo *AAkiBiddov, amoomdcas azo
4 , > > / > / ‘
tovrov, Kkatabéwevos ev "Apidpovos éemaideve: Kal
mpw €& phvas yeyovevat, amédwke TovTw ovK
éxywv 6 Tt xphoaito att@. Kat aAAovs cou map-

126

PROTAGORAS

until either the speaker retires from his attempt,
overborne by the clamour, or the tipstaves pull him
from his place or turn him out altogether by order
of the chair. Such is their procedure in matters
which they consider professional. But when they
have to deliberate on something connected with the
administration of the State, the man who rises to
advise them on this may equally well be a smith, a
shoemaker, a merchant, a sea-captain, a rich man, a
poor man, of good family or of none, and nobody
thinks of casting in his teeth, as one would in the
former case, that his attempt to give advice is justified
by no instruction obtained in any quarter, no guid-
ance of any master; and obviously it is because
they hold that here the thing cannot be taught.
Nay further, it is not only so with the service of the
State, but in private life our best and wisest citizens
are unable to transmit this excellence of theirs to
others ; for Pericles, the father of these young fellows
here, gave them a first-rate training in the subjects for
which he found teachers, but in those of which he is
himself a master he neither trains them personally
nor commits them to another’s guidance, and so they
go about grazing at will like sacred oxen, on the
chance of their picking up excellence here or there
for themselves. Or, if you like, there is Cleinias,
the younger brother of Alcibiades here, whom this
same Pericles, acting as his guardian, and fearing he
might be corrupted, I suppose, by Alcibiades, car-
ried off from his brother and placed in Ariphron’s
family to be educated: but before six months had
passed he handed him back to Alcibiades, at a
loss what to do with him. And there are a great
many others whom I could mention to you as having

127

PLATO

/ ”
moAdovs exw éyew, of adrol ayaboi dvres oddéva
mwmote BeAtiw eroinoay ore THY oiKelwy ovTE
~ >
T&v adddotpiwy. eéyw obv, & Upwraydpa, eis
~ > ~
Tatra amoBAérwy ody yyobuar Sidaxrov elvat
> ~
apeTyv: e7redr) S5€ Gov akovw Tatra Aé€yovTos,
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ce mo\Mdv pev Ewrrerpov yeyovevar, modAa de
pepabnkévar, ta 5é€ adrov eEevpnkevar. i odv
v > , e “ > “~ e /
exes evapyéotepov auiv emdeitar, ws SidaKrdv
>
coTw H apeTH, wn POovions, GAN émiderEov. *AAX’,
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bpiv, ws mpeoBdrepos vewrépos, poov A€Eywv
emidelEw 7) Adyw SreEcAPdv; oAdol obv adbra
o ‘
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bréAaBov Tav mapaxabnuevwr, omotépws BovdorTo,
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atepov elvar pobov byiv AEéyew.
> , , ¢ ‘ \ A
Hv ydp more xpovos, 6re Oeol ev Hoav, Ovnra
Sé yéevn ovK Hv. ered) S€ Kal TovTois yxpovos
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ys evdov ex yijs Kal mupds pl€avres Kat TO doa-
mupt Kal yh KepdvvuTar. eémrevd~8 ayew adra
A ~ ” /, = ‘
mpos das €ueddAov, mpooérakav IIpopnPet Kal
"Eine? Koopioat te Kat vetwor Suvamets éxa-
aros ws ampere. IIpounPéa Sé€ mapactretrac
a > 3 fol ”
"Emipnbeds adbros vetwar, veiwavtos 8° emod, Edn,
emloxersoar* Kal oUTw Teicas veuer.. vewwy Se
~ ~ ‘ >
Tois pev ioydv dvev tdxous mpootmre, Tovs 8

> ‘ , 7-2 ‘ Se ¢ ,
aaleveatépous TAXEL EKOOLEL* TOUS € WT. ile,

128

PROTAGORAS

never succeeded, though virtuous themselves, in
making anyone else better, either of their own or
of other families. I therefore, Protagoras, in view
of these facts, believe that virtue is not teachable :
but when I hear you speak thus, I am swayed over,
and suppose there is something in what you say,
because I consider you to have gained experience
in many things and to have learnt many, besides
finding out some for yourself. So if you can demon-
strate to us more explicitly that virtue is teachable,
do not grudge us your demonstration.

No, Socrates, I will not grudge it you; but shall
I, as an old man speaking to his juniors, put my
demonstration in the form of a fable, or of a regular
exposition ?

Many of the company sitting by him instantly
bade him treat his subject whichever way he pleased.

Well then, he said, I fancy the more agreeable
way is for me to tell you a fable.

There was once a time when there were gods, but
no mortal creatures. And when to these also came
their destined time to be created, the gods moulded
their forms within the earth, of a mixture made of
earth and fire and all substances that are compounded
with fire and earth. When they were about to bring
these creatures to light, they charged Prometheus
and Epimetheus to deal to each the equipment of
his proper faculty. Epimetheus besought Pro-
metheus that he might do the dealing himself ;
“And when I have dealt,” he said, “ you shall
examine.” Having thus persuaded him he dealt ;
and in dealing he attached strength without speed
to some, while the weaker he equipped with speed ;
and some he armed, while devising for others, along

129

321

PLATO

tois 8 domAov didods dvow aAAnv zu" avrois
eunxavato Svvauw «is owrnpiav. a pev yap
avrav opuKpornre TLTUOXE, mTnvov puyiv 7
Kardyetov olknow evepiev” a de ndte peyeber,
THE avT® adbra eowle: Kat TaAAa ovTws emavicdy
evepe. Tatra dé eunxavaro evAdBevay EXWY [LH
TL ‘yevos diorwBety: emevd1) dé adrois d.\Anho-
POoprav Siapuyas empKEae, TMpOS Tas eK Awds
cpas evpudperav eunxavaro dyuhevv0s ava. m-
kvais Te Apgt Kal oTepeois Séppacw, & txavots pev
dpdvar yeyudva, Svvatois S€ Kal Kavpara, Kai
eis edvas todow OTTWS _Smdpxot Ta. avrd rabra
oTpwpvT) olxeta Te Kal avropuns éxdore’ Kal
b70 7od@v Ta. bev OmAais, Ta 5é ove! Kai Sepiaor
atepeois Kal dvaijLous. robvredbev tpopas aAdous
dAdas e&erdpile, tots pev ek ys Bordyny, aAAous
dé Sévdpwv Kapirovs, Tots de pilas* €ort oe ols
edwxev elvat Tpophy Caiwv GAAwv Bopav- Kat Tots
pev dAuyoyoviay mpoone, Tots 5 dvaNaxopévous
70 TOUTE ToAvyoviay, owTnpiav 7 yéver 7r0-
pilwv. are 87 ov od mavu Tt cogs a Vv O "Exup-
Devs éAabev atdrov katavaddoas Tas Suvdpers eis
Ta dAoya: Aourrov 51) axdopntov Ett avT@ wy TO
dvOpcrmrev yevos, Kal Hmope. GO Tt Xpyoauro.
amropoovTt be avr EPXET OL TI popn Beds emmLoKe-
wopevos Thy voy, Kal opd Ta pev adda faa
eupedds TavTWV exovra, TOV dé avOpurov yupvov
Te Kal dvuTd8nTov Kat dorpwrov kal dom)ov:
Hon dé Kal 7 etwappevn 7€pa Traphy, ev He) edet Kal
dvOpwrov éeévévar ex yas eis PMs. amopia odv

1 $vvéic Baiter: Opiéiv Mss.
130

PROTAGORAS

with an unarmed condition, some different faculty
for preservation. To those which he invested with
smallness he dealt a winged escape or an under-
ground habitation; those which he increased in
largeness he preserved by this very means ; and he
dealt all the other properties on this plan of com-
pensation. In contriving all this he was taking pre-
caution that no kind should be extinguished ; and
when he had equipped them with avoidances of
mutual destruction, he devised a provision against
the seasons ordained by Heaven, in clothing them
about with thick-set hair and solid hides, sufficient to
ward off winter yet able to shield them also from
the heats, and so that on going to their lairs they
might find in these same things a bedding of their
own that was native to each; and some he shod
with hoofs, others with claws and solid, bloodless
hides. Then he proceeded to furnish each of them
with its proper food, some with pasture of the earth,
others with fruits of trees, and others again with
roots; and to a certain number for food he gave
other creatures to devour: to some he attached a
paucity in breeding, and to others, which were being
consumed by these, a plenteous brood, and so pro-
- cured survival of their kind. Now Epimetheus, being
not so wise as he might be, heedlessly squandered
his stock of properties on the brutes; he still had
left unequipped the race of men, and was at a
loss what to do with it. As he was casting about,
Prometheus arrived to examine his distribution, and
saw that whereas the other creatures were fully and
suitably provided, man was naked, unshod, unbedded,
unarmed ; and already the destined day was come,
whereon man like the rest should emerge from earth

131

3

22

PLATO

€XO[LEVOS 6 ITpopnbeds, avrwa owrnpiav TO
dvOpeirrep evpot, KAemret ‘H¢atorou Kal *AOnvass
THY evTeXvov oodiav ov Tupi —apnxavov yap iv
avev Tupos abr KTNTHV TW 7 Xenoieny | yeve-
ofau—xat ovTw 67) Swpetrat ‘avO pert. THY ev
obv mepi tov Biov oopiay dvOpwrros Tavrn £OXxE,
Thy S€ moAutuKiy ovK elyev" mg yap Tapa 7 Au:
T@ S€ Mpopnbet els pev Thy aKpomoAw TH TOO
Avds olknow ovKETL evexwper cloeMeiv: mpos dé
Kal ai Avs pudaxal doBepai 7 qoav: eis be TO. Tijs
"AOnvas Kat ‘Hdatorov otknpa. TO Kowor, ev @
eudorexvetrny, Aabav elo€pxerar, Kal Kréfas TY
TE epTTUpov TeXYnY tiv tod “Hdaiorov Kai Ty
aMAny Ty Tijs “A@nvas didwow avOpebrrey, Kal €k
TovTov evzropia pev dvOpasrep vod Biov yiyverat,
IIpounbéa dé du’ "Exyundéa torepov, Hep Aéyerat,
Kromis dikn perHABev.

*Ezrevd7) S€ 6 avOpwros Oeias petréoye poipas,
mpatrov pev dia THY Tob Beod avyyéveray Cowy
povov Oeods evdpuce, Kal émeyeiper Bwpovs Te
iSpvecbar Kai aydAuara Be@v- exeita Pwvinv Kal
ovopata Taxvd SunpOpdcaro TH Téxvn, Kal oixjaets
Kal eobAras Kat broddéoes Kal oTpwyvas Kal Tas
ex ys Tpodas nUpeTo. ovTw 81) TapeoKkevacpevor
Kat apxas avOpwro. wKovv omopddny, modes dé
ovK Hoav: amwAdvvto obv bo THV Onpiwv dia TO
mavTaxy avrav dobevéorepor eivat, Kal 7 Syptoup-
yuxn) TEXVN avrots mpos pev tpodiy tkavy BonBds
Vv, pos be Tov TOV Onpicov 770Ae pov evoens*
ToAiTiKiY yap Téxvnv oUmw elxov, Fs Epos TOXE-
pun. elyjrovv 81 aOpoilecbar Kal odlecbas

1 7.e. of arts originally apportioned to gods alone.
132

PROTAGORAS

to light. Then Prometheus, in his perplexity as to
what preservation he could devise for man, stole
from Hephaestus and Athena wisdom in the arts
together with fire—since by no means without fire
could it be acquired or helpfully used by any—and
he handed it there and then as a gift to man. Now
although man acquired in this way the wisdom of
daily life, civic wisdom he had not, since this was in
the possession of Zeus ; Prometheus could not make
so free as to enter the citadel which is the dwelling-
place of Zeus, and moreover the guards of Zeus were
terrible: but he entered unobserved the building
shared by Athena and Hephaestus for the pursuit
of their arts, and stealing Hephaestus’s fiery art and
all Athena’s also he gave them to man, and hence it
is that man gets facility for his livelihood, but
Prometheus, through Epimetheus’ fault, later on
(the story goes) stood his trial for theft.

d now that man was partaker of a divine
portion,’ he, in the first place, by his nearness of
kin to deity, was the only creature that worshipped
gods, and set himself to establish altars and holy
images; and secondly, he soon was enabled by his
skill to articulate speech and words, and to invent
dwellings, clothes, sandals, beds, and the foods that
are of the earth. Thus far provided, men dwelt
separately in the beginning, and cities there were
none; so that they were being destroyed by the
wild beasts, since these were in all ways stronger
than they; and although their skill in handiwork
was a sufficient aid in respect of food, in their warfare
with the beasts it was defective; for as yet they
had no civic art, which includes the art of war. So
they sought to band themselves together and secure

133

3

3

PLATO

, > ~
Krilovres modes: dt obv GOpoobeiev, 7Sixovv
> 7 a > ” A A 7
aAAjAous dre ovK ExovTes THY TodTLKHY TéxVnY,
7 / rs , A >
wate Tadw oKedavv¥pevor SiedOeipovto. Zevds odv
‘ ~ ~ ~
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¢ ~ ~
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, o> ‘s / A ‘A ,
dixnv, W’ elev mdAewv Kdopot Te Kai Seapol diAias
auvaywyol. epwrd obtv ‘Epufs Ata, tiva obdv
tpotrov doin Sixknv Kal aidd avOpemois: moTEpov
Ws at Téxvat veveunvrat, ovTw Kal TavTas veiw;
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veveunvrac Se€ wde> els Exwv larpikyv moAdXois
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7% 4 , > \ 4 ” e ta ‘A
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dXiyou adrav peréxouev Worrep GAAwy Texva@v: Kal
vopuov ye és map’ eu0d, Tov jr) Suvdpevov aidods
Kat Sixns petéxew Ktelvew ws vocov mdAcws.
ovtw 84, @ LwKpares, kal Sia tadra of te aAAou
kat “A@nvaior, drav pev epi aperis TexToviKhs 7
, n“ wv A ~ > 7 ”
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preretvat ovpPovdAjs, Kat édv tis éxTos wv TOY
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elkoTws, Ws eyo pnt orav dé els cupBovAny
moAiTiKAS apeTAs twow, Av Set dia Sixarcoodyys
~ 4 - > oe >
macav idvar Kat owhpoavyys, €iKdTwWSs ATravTOS av:
~ ,
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~ ~ > / M4 >
peTéxew THs aperis, 7 wn elvar modes. avryn, @
A ” > ~
Lwkpares, TovTov airia> iva dé 7 oin avaraoba,
s TO Ovre Hyobvra tavres avOpwrot mavTa avdpa
134

PROTAGORAS

their lives by founding cities. Now as often as they
were banded together they did wrong to one another
through the lack of civic art, and thus they began
to be scattered again and to perish. So Zeus, fearing
that our race was in danger of utter destruction,
sent Hermes to bring respect and right among men,
to the end that there should be regulation of cities and
friendly ties to draw them together. Then Hermes
asked Zeus in what manner then was he to give
men right and respect: “ Am I to deal them out
as the arts have been dealt? That dealing was
done in such wise that one man possessing medical
art is able to treat many ordinary men, and so with
the other craftsmen. Am I to place among men
right and respect in this way also, or deal them out
to all?”’ “To all,” replied Zeus; “let all have
their share ; for cities cannot be formed if only a
few have a share of these as of other arts. And
make thereto a law of my ordaining, that he who
cannot partake of respect and right shall die the
death as a public pest.” Hence it comes about,
Socrates, that people in cities, and especially in
Athens, consider it the concern of a few to advise
on cases of artistic excellence or good craftsmanship,
and if anyone outside the few gives advice they
disallow it, as you say, and not without reason, as I
think: but when they meet for a consultation on
civic art, where they should be guided throughout
by justice and good sense, they naturally allow advice
from everybody, since it is held that everyone
should partake of this excellence, or else that states
cannot be. This, Socrates, is the explanation of
it. And that you may not think you are mistaken,
to show how all men verily believe that everyone

135

PLATO

, , \ a ” a
petéxew Sixaroovvyns Te Kat THs aAAns TodTiKAs
aperis, Tdde ad Aape TeK[qptov. ev yap Tats
adAAats aperais, Horep ov Aeyets, edv tis $f
dyads addnrns elvar, 7 aAny HvTwobv TEXYIY,
iy pe) €oTw, 7 Karayehdow 7 7 xXaAeraivovor, Kal
oi oikeioe mpootdvTes vovleTotow ws jawdopevov'
> A 4 ‘ > ~ ~ > ~
ev d€ Sixavoovvn Kal ev TH GAAn moAtTiKH aperh,
thes ‘ DA bid + / > 2h
édv Twa Kai eld@ow Stu adiKds eoTw, av odTOS

9 ‘ > e ~ > ~ 4 > / ~
avros Kal’ atdrod taAnOA A€yn evavtiov ToAA@r, 6
>? A 4 e ~ > a ,
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ovddéva ovTw’ odyxi duds yé mws peTréxew adris, 7
py) elvae ev avOpdzrois.

¢ 4 a i> ie > ,

Om péev ody mavr’ avdpa eikdtws amodéyovrat
mept tavTyns THs apeTis ovpBovdrov dia 7d ryetoBat
mavTt peteivar avtis, Tadra Aéyw: (drt Sé€ adrjv
od dvoet iyodvrat eivar odd’ amo Tob abroudrov,
> A / ral 7 >? , ,

GAAa Sidaxrov te Kal €& emupedcias mapayiyveoBa
@ dv mapaylyyynta, TodTd Gor peta TodTO TEL-

4 > cal Ld ‘\ ¢ ~ > ta
pdoowat amodeifar. doa yap ryobvrat adAjAovs
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ovde vovbeTre? odd€ SidadoKer ovde KoAdler Tods

lo ” 7 ‘ “~. 2 > BES an

tadra éxovtas, Wa pr Towiro. dow, add’ édeod-

A a A “ 3 a /

aw: olov tovs aiaxpods 7 opiKpovs 7 acbeveis tis

oUTws avontos, WoTEe TL TOUTWY EmLxELpEtY TroLEiV;

Tatra pev yap, ola, toaow ore pvoe Te Kal

a A

Tuyn Tots avOpwros yiyveTat, TA KaAa Kat TavaV-

136

PROTAGORAS

partakes of justice and the rest of civic virtue, I can
offer yet a further proof. In all other excellences,
as you say, when a man professes to be good at
flute-playing or any other art in which he has no
such skill, they either laugh him to scorn or are
annoyed with him, and his people come and reprove
him for being so mad: but where justice or any
other civic virtue is involved, and they happen to
know that a certain person is unjust, if he confesses
the truth about his conduct before the public, that
truthfulness which in the former arts they would
regard as good sense they here call madness. Every-
one, they say, should profess to be just, whether he
is so or not, and whoever does not make some pre-
tension to justice is mad; since it is held that all
without exception must needs partake of it in some
way or other, or else not be of human kind.

Take my word for it, then, that they have good
reason for admitting everybody as adviser on this
virtue, owing to their belief that everyone has some
of it; and next, that they do not regard it as
natural or spontaneous, but as something taught
and acquired after careful preparation by those who
acquire it,—of this I will now endeavour to convince
you. In all cases of evils which men deem to have
befallen their neighbours by nature or fortune,
nobody is wroth with them or reproves or lectures
or punishes them, when so afflicted, with a view to
their being other than they are; one merely pities
them. Who, for instance, is such a fool as to try
to do anything of the sort to the ugly, the puny,
or the weak? Because, I presume, men know that
it is by nature and fortune that people get these
things, the graces of life and their opposites. But

137

324

PLATO

ria Tovrots* doa dé €& emipedeias Kal doxjoews
Kal ddaxfs otovrat yiyveobar dyaba dvOparrots,
édy Ts Tatra }27) EXY)> adda. Tavavria, TOUTWY Kad,
emt tovToits mov ot te Ovyol ylyvovrar Kal at
KoAdoets Kat ai vovdernaets. av €or &v Kat 7
dducio, Kal 7 doeBeva. Kat oavddAnBdynv may TO
evavTiov TiS, ToATuKAS a aperis* eva 67) was mavtt
Ovpobrau Kat vovbere?, dijAov 6 ore ws e& émysedetas
kal pabjcews KTHTHS ovons. et yap €bédeus
evvojoat TO KoAdlew, @ Ud«pates, Tods adiKodv-
tas Ti mote Svvarar, atto oe Sidder, Ste of ye
avOpwrot yyotvTat tapacKevacrov ecivar apeTny.
ovdels yap KoAdle Tods adiKobvTas mpos ToUTW TOV
vodv €xwv Kal TovTou Eveka, Ott HoiKNOEV, OOTIS
pq) Worep Onpiov aAoyiorws Tyswpeirar: 6 dé
pera Adyou eémiyeipHv Kodrdlew od Tod map-
eAnAvOoros eveka aductaros TyLeopetTou—od yap
av 76 ye mpaxJev dyévnrov Bein—arra Tob ped-
Aovros xdpw, iva. pa) avis adiKnon pyre avros
obros pyte aAXos 6 TobTov idav KoAacbevTa Kal
TowavTny Sidvoray Exwv Siavoeirat madevTHy elvat
apeTiv> amoTtpomAs yobv evexa KoAdler. tavryny
obv HV So€av mdvres Exovew, Soowrep TYLWPODVTAL
Kal idia Kat Sypocia: Tywwpodyrar dé Kal KodAd-
Covrar ot te ddAdow avOpwrot ots av olwvrat
dduKeiv, Kal ody HKvoTa "APnvaior, of col modirau:
@oTe Kata TodTov Tov Adyov Kai *AOnvaiol eiot
T&Y iyyounevwv trapackevacrov elvar Kal didaKTov
dpeTHv. wes pev ody eikdtws amodéxovTat ot col
moXirat Kat yaAKéws Kal oKuToTouov cupPov-
Aevovros Ta ToATIKG, Kal STL SidaKTOV Kal Trapa-

138

PROTAGORAS

as to all the good things that people are supposed
to get by application and practice and teaching,
where these are lacking in anyone and only their
opposite evils are found, here surely are the occasions
for wrath and punishment and reproof. One of them
is injustice, and impiety, and in short all that is
opposed to civic virtue; in such case anyone will
be wroth with his neighbour and reprove him, clearly
because the virtue is to be acquired by application
and learning. For if you will consider punishment,
Socrates, and what control it has over wrong-doers,
the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding
virtue as procured. No one punishes a wrong-doer
from the mere contemplation or on account of his
wrong-doing, unless one takes unreasoning vengeance
like a wild beast. But he who undertakes to punish
with reason does not avenge himself for the past
offence, since he cannot make what was done as
though it had not come to pass ;_ he looks rather to
the future, and aims at preventing that particular
person and others who see him punished from doing
wrong again. And being so minded he must have
in mind that virtue comes by training: for you
observe that he punishes to deter. This then is the
accepted view of all who seek requital in either
private or public life; and while men in general
exact requital and punishment from those whom
they suppose to have wronged them, this is especially
the case with the Athenians, your fellow-citizens,
so that by our argument the Athenians also share
the view that virtue is procured and taught. Thus
I have shown that your fellow-citizens have good
reason for admitting a smith’s or cobbler’s counsel
in public affairs, and that they hold virtue to be

139

D

325

PLATO

oKevaoTov ryobvra apeTry, amodddeiKTal cot, @
LeaKpares, ixavds, os y epol paiverar.
"Ext 81) Aouri) dzropia éoriv, nv dzropets mepl
TOV avdpav TOV dyabav, ti Sirore of dvdpes ot
ayabot Ta pev aAAa Tods abrdyv viels SiddoKovow, a
diudackdAwy exerar, Kai copods mrotodow, hv Se
abtot dpetyv ayaboi, ovdevos BeAtiovs movodat.
ToUTOU 57) mépt, @ LesKpares, ovKére pd8ev got
Ep, aAAG Adyov. ade yap evvonoov* mOTEpoV
EOTL TL EV, 7) ovK cor, od avayKatov mdavras Tovs
moNiras HETEXEW, elmep peAre mohus elvan; ev
TOUTW yap AUTH Avera 7 Yi dmopia, nv ob dmropeis, 7
dMobt ovdapod. el bev yap €oTt Kal TOOTS €or
TO €v ov TEKTOVLK) ovde xaAKela ovde kepayseia,
and Sucavoovvn Kal owppootvn Kat 70 Oovov
elvat, Kai ovAdnBdnv € év aro mpooayopeto elvat
dvdpos dpeTny el Toor’ cortv, ob Set mdvTas
peTexew Kal peta TOUTOUV adyr’ avopa, edy Tt kal
aAAo BovAnra pavOavew 7 7 mparrew, ovr mpar~
TEW, GVEV be TOUTOU |L7), 7) TOV [L1) pete xovTa, kal
diddoKeuw Kal Kodalew, Kal maida Kal dvdpa Kal
yovaixa, Ewomrep dy KoAalopevos Bedriev yevnrat,
és 5° av p27) UmaKouy | KoAaldpevos Kal didacKxopevos,
ws aviatov ovTa. Tobrov ex Ba Mew eK T&v moAewv
7] dmoxreivew" el oUTw pev EXEL, | ovrw 8° avrod
mepukotos of dyabot avOpes el Ta pe aAAa bu-
ddoKovTat Tous vieis, TobTo de HA, oxefar os
Bavpdovor’ yiyvovrar ot dayabot. ort pev yap
dvdaxkrov avro HyobvrTat Kal Sig Kal Sypooia,
dredei€apev didarrob dé OvTos Kal Oeparrevtod TO
pev GAAa dpa Tods vieis diSdoKovra, ed’ ofs ovK
1 @avydoro. Kroschel: @avuaciws mss.
140

PROTAGORAS

taught and procured: of this I have given you
satisfactory demonstration, Socrates, as it appears
to me.

I have yet to deal with your remaining problem
about good men, why it is that these good men have
their sons taught the subjects in the regular teachers’
courses, and so far make them wise, but do not make
them excel in that virtue wherein consists their own
goodness. On this point, Socrates, I shall give you
argument instead of fable. Now consider : is there,
or is there not, some one thing whereof all the
citizens must needs partake, if there is to be a city?
Here, and nowhere if not here, is the solution of this
problem of yours. For if there is such a thing, and
that one thing, instead of being the joiner’s or
smith’s or potter’s art, is rather justice and temper-
ance and holiness—in short, what I may put
together and call a man’s virtue; and if it is this
whereof all should partake and wherewith everyone
should proceed to any further knowledge or action,
but should not if he lacks it ; if we should instruct and
punish such as do not partake of it, whether child
or husband or wife, until the punishment of such
persons has made them better, and should cast forth
from our cities or put to death as incurable whoever
fails to respond to such punishment and instruction ;
—if it is like this, and yet, its nature being so, good
men have their sons instructed in everything else but
this, what very surprising folk the good are found to
be! For we have proved that they regard this thing
as teachable both in private and in public life, and
then, though it may be taught and fostered, are we
to say that they have their sons taught everything
'

VOL. IV F 141

326

PLATO

€oTt Ddvaros % Cnuia, éav pa) erriotwvrat, eg’ é
dé 7 Te Cnpia Odvaros adbtav ois mavot kal
guyat a) pabodor pnde Depamevbeiow eis dperiy,
Kat mpos 7@ bavdarw Xpnedreov Te Sypedoets kal
ws €7os eirety ovripony TOV olkwy avarpoTal,
Tatra 5 dpa od diddoKxovrar ovd” , emsehobyrau
maoav emuercav; olecbai ye xpy, @ LaKpares.

"Ek mraidcv Op.iKp@v dpEdpevor, pexpt ovdzep
av C@ou, Kai diddoxovor Kat vouderobow. emevday
Oarrov ouvef] Ts TO. Acyopeva., Kal tpopos Kal
pajrnp Kal madaywyos Kat avros 6 Tarp mept
ToUTOU Svapdxovrat, Ores ws BéArvoros €oTau
6 mais, map Exaorov Kali épyov Kai Adyov didd-
okovTes Kal “ evdeLKVUpEVOL, OTL TO pev Sixasov, To
dé dducov, Kab TOOE Lev Kahr, Tobe Se atoxpdr,
Kat 708€ poev davwov, TOOE be dvdovov, Kal Ta ev
qolet, TA O€ f47) Toler’ Kal eav pev Exedy meiOnrat-
ei 5€ py, worep Evdrov Siactpepdpevov Kal Kap-
mrTouevov evOUvovow ameAais Kai mAnyais. pera
S€ tadra eis SidacKkdAwy méumovtes ToAD pwaAAov
evTeMovrau emyrehetobar evKoopias TOV Taidwy
7 ypapydroy Te Kal Kiapicews of Se bidd-
oxahor TOUTWY TE emyredoovrar, Kal emedav ad
ypdppara pdbuoe Kal peAAwou ouvncew Ta
Yeypappeva, aomep TOTE THV puviy, Tapa.
7tWéacw adrois émi TeV Babpwv dvayuyvesaKel
ToUnTa@v dyabv Toujpata Kal expavOdvew dvay-
Kalovow, ev ols moA\ai pev vouderioers evelot,
moAAat dé dieEodor Kai Erawot Kal éyKdpwa
TaAaav dvdpav ayabdv, wa 6 mais Cnhav | pu-
paras Kal dpeyntar tovodros yeveobar. of 7°
ad «iWapiorai, érepa tovaira, owdpoovvys Te
142

PROTAGORAS

in which the penalty for ignorance is not death, but
in a matter where the death-penalty or exile awaits
their children if not instructed and cultivated in
virtue—and not merely death, but confiscation of
property and practically the entire subversion of their
house—here they do not have them taught or take
the utmost care of them? So at any rate we must
conclude, Socrates.

They teach and admonish them from earliest child-
hood till the last day of their lives. As soon as one
of them grasps what is said to him, the nurse, the
mother, the tutor, and the father himself strive hard
that the child may excel, and as each act and word
occurs they teach and impress upon him that this is
just, and that unjust, one thing noble, another base,
one holy, another unholy, and that he is to do this,
and not do that. If he readily obeys,—so ; butif not,
they treat him as a bent and twisted piece of wood
and straighten him with threats and blows. After
this they send them to school and charge the master
to take far more pains over their children’s good
behaviour than over their letters and harp-playing.
The masters take pains accordingly, and the children,
when they have learnt their letters and are getting
to understand the written word as before they did
only the spoken, are furnished with works of good
poets to read as they sit in class, and are made to
learn them off by heart: here they meet with many
admonitions, many descriptions and praises and
eulogies of good men in times past, that the boy in
envy may imitate them and yearn to become even
as they. Then also the music-masters, in a similar

143

PLATO

emieAobvrar Kal Omws av ot véow pndev KaKoUp-
y@ou.- mpos S€ Tovros, émevdav Kilapilew pa-
OQwow, aArwy ad momrav dyabdyv moujpara
SiuddoKxover peAoTody, eis Ta Kapiopata ev-
teivovtes, Kal Tovs pulovs Te Kal Tas appovias
avayKalovow oixevodoba tais puyais TO raider,
iva apepwrepot te Wor, Kal evpvOudrepor Kal
evappooToTEpoL yuyvouevor xprHowwor Mow els TO
Aéyew te Kal mparrew: mds yap 6 Bios Tob av-
Opeirrov edpvOias Te Kal edappootias Setrar. Ere
Tolvuy mpos TovTois eis madoTpiBov méumovow,
wa Ta owpata PeAtiw Exovres “banpeT@ou TH
Siavoia xpnoTH ovon, Kal pr avayxdlwvrat
drrodedy dia Tv movnpiav THv owudtwv Kal
€v tots moAcuows Kal ev tats aAdais mpdfecr"
Kal Tadra mowdow of padora Suvapevow” pdAvora.
Sé Stvavrat of mAovawwraro. Kal ot ToUTWY vies,
mpwiaitata eis SidackdAwy Tis HAucias apEdwevor
dourav, oxuaitata dmadAdrrovrar. éemedav dé €x
SidackdAwy damadr\aydow, 7 modus ad tovs Te
vopous avayrale: wavOdvew Kat Kata tovTous Civ
Kabdrep' mapdderypa, wa pi adrot ed adrav
eik} mpdttwow, aA atexvds dorep of ypaypa-
TioTai Tois pjmw Sewots ypadew tTav Traidwv
droypabavres ypaypas TH ypapid: ovTw Td
ypappareiov Siddace Kal dvaykdlovor ypadew
Kata Thy odynynow Ta. ypaypav, @s oe Kal
modus vopous droypdyaca, dyalav Kal mahadv
vowoberav etpiypata, Kata TovTovs avayKdaler
Kal dpyew Kai apxeoOa ds 8 ay exros Baivy
TovTwv, KoAdler, Kat dvoua TH KoAdoe TatrTy
1 xabdrep Heindorf: card mss,
144

PROTAGORAS

sort, take pains for their self-restraint, and see that
their young charges do not go wrong: moreover,
when they learn to play the harp, they are taught
the works of another set of good poets, the song-
makers, while the master accompanies them on the
harp ; and they insist on familiarizing the boys’ souls
with the rhythms and scales, that they may gain in
gentleness, and by advancing in rhythmic and har-
monic grace may be efficient in speech and action ;
for the whole of man’s life requires the graces of
rhythm and harmony. Again, over and above
all this, people send their sons to a trainer, that
having improved their bodies they may perform
the orders of their minds, which are now in
fit condition, and that they may not be forced by
bodily faults to play the coward in wars and other
duties. This is what people do, who are most able ;
and the most able are the wealthiest. Their sons
begin school at the earliest age, and are freed from
it at the latest. And when they are released from
their schooling the city next compels them to learn
the laws and to live according to them as after a
pattern, that their conduct may not be swayed by
their own light fancies, but just as writing-masters
first draw letters in faint outline with the pen for
their less advanced pupils, and then give them the
copy-book and make them write according to the
guidance of their lines, so the city sketches out for
them the laws devised by good lawgivers of yore, and
constrains them to govern and be governed according
to these. She punishes anyone who steps outside
these borders, and this punishment among you and

145

E

327

PLATO

kal map’ tuiv Kail dAdAof oAAaxod, ds edOv-
vovons Ths Sixns, «d0ivar. tooatrns odv Tis
e7yseAcias ovons tepi aperhs idia Kal Snpooia,
Bavpalets, & UedKxpares, kal amopets, ef SdaKxrov
eoTw dpetyn; GAN od xpi) Oavudlew, adda zrodd
pGAAov, ef pr SidaKrov.

Awa ti obv r&v ayabdv marépwy trodAoi vieis
gpadAo. yiyvovrar; totro ad pdbe- oddev yap
Oavpacrov, <imep aAnOh éyw ev tots eumpoobev
éXeyov, Ot TOvUTOV TOO mpadyyaTos, THs apeTis,
ei pede mods elvar, ovdéva Set idiwrevew.
et yap 57) 6 Aéyw otrws éyer—exer 5€ padvora.
mdvrwy ovtws—evOupnOnte GAAo Tay émurndevpa-
Twv dtioby Kal pabnudtwv mpocAduevos. «i py)
oldv 7 Hv moAw elvar, ef ut) TdvTes adAnTal Hyer,
omotds tis edvvato ExaoTos, Kal Todro Kai idia
Kal Synpocia mas mavra Kal edidacKe Kal émé-
mAntTe Tov pi) KAADs avdAobvTa, Kal pr epOdver
TovTouv, womep viv Tav SiKaiwy Kal TOV vopipwv
ovdels POovet 00d’ amoxpUmreTas womtep THY
aM TEXVNUATwWV* Avouredet yap, olwat, mpiv
v7) ap Awv Sucaroodvy Ka dpery* Sia Tadra mas
mart ™po vpuws, A¢ye kal SiddoKer. cal Ta Sikara
Kal Ta vouuar’ ei odv ovTw Kat ev avArjoer
macav mpobvuiav Kat adfoviav eliyouev dAdjAous
SiSdoKew, ole av Tt, pn, padrov, & Lw«pares,
Tov ayabdav avAnr av ayabods avhnras | Tovs
viets yiyveoban 7 Tov patho ; holwa wey ov,
aAAa Grou Eetrvxev 6 vies evpvéoratos yevopevos
eis avAnow, odros dv eddyysos ndéjOn, Grou

146

PROTAGORAS

in many other cities, from the corrective purpose of
the prosecution, is called a Correction.1 Seeing then
that so much care is taken in the matter of both
private and public virtue, do you wonder, Socrates,
and make it a great difficulty, that virtue may be
taught? Surely there is no reason to wonder at that:
you would have far greater reason, if it were not so.
Then why is it that many sons of good fathers turn
out so meanly? Let me explain this also: it is no
wonder, granted that I was right in stating just now
that no one, if we are to have a city, must be a mere
layman in. this affair of virtue. For if what I say is
the case—and it is supremely true—reflect on the
nature of any other pursuit or study that you choose
to mention. Suppose that there could be no state
unless we were all flute-players, in such sort as each
was able, and suppose that everyone were giving his
neighbour both private and public lessons in the art,
and rebuked him too, if he failed to do it well, without
grudging him the trouble—even as no one now thinks
of grudging or reserving his skill in what is just and
lawful as he does in other expert knowledge ; for
our neighbours’ justice and virtue, I take it, is to our
advantage, and consequently we all tell and teach
one another what is just and lawful—well, if we
made the same zealous and ungrudging efforts to
instruct each other in flute-playing, do you think,
Socrates, that the good flute-players would be more
likely than the bad to have sons who were good flute-
players? I do not think they would: no, wherever
the son had happened to be born with a nature most
apt for flute-playing, he would be found to have
1 The public inquiry to which a magistrate was liable after

his term of office.
147

328

PLATO

Sé dadujs, daxXerjs* Kal modAdKis pev ayabod
avrAnrod dairos av améBn, modAdkis 8 av davddov
ayabos+ GAN obv atAnrai y av! mdvres Hoav
ixavol ws mpos Tods iduiTas Kal pndev adAjoews
emalovras. oUTws olov Kal viv, GaTis Got adL-
Kwtatos daiverat avOpwmos ta&v ev vomows Kal
avOpwirrois TeOpappéevwv, Sikatov adrov elvar Kai
Snpovpyov TovTov Tob mpdyparos, ei Séou avrov
KpiveoBau pos dvOpasrous, ols pyre tradeia
€ort pare Sixaorypia pyre vowou pde avdyien

pydepia dvd TavTOS ava Kdlovoa a TT ULE =
NctoBau GAN’ elev dypuol TWeES, olotzep os 7épvov™

epexparns r) Torys edidakev emt Anvaic. Mh
ofddpa ev tots Towvrois avOpumois yevopevos,
womep of ev exeivw TO xop@ prodvOpwro, aya-
mois av, et evtdxous EvpuBdtw Kai Dpvvwvda,

‘Kai dvorodipar’ av obey tiv TOv évOade avOpuizrwwv

fis ‘ ~ be a > >} A 8 ,

movnpiav: viv de tpudds, & Ld«pares, Sve

, / Ul > > ~ > id ,
mavres SiddoKadoi eiow adperis, Kal? doov Sv-
vavTat €xaoTos, Kal ovdeis cor daivera: «iO,
ov bd) > a , , a ¢ ,
Womrep av ei Cynrois tis dudacKados Tod EAAnvilew,

*9> ba) , > La > wv - > a“
ovd’ av els davein, obdé y’ av, oluat, et Cynrois
is av jp bdLeve ToUs TOV Xetporexvav vicis
avriy TavTHY TV TEXVNY, hv 81) Trapa. Too TaTpos
pepabiKcact, Kal? doov olds T hwo Tarp Kal
oi Tod tratpos didou dvres Opdrexvol,’ ToUTOUS ETL
tis av didakerev, od pdd.ov olwar elvar, d Ud«pares,
rottwy Siddoxadov dayivat, frav Sé areipwv

» , - fess St 4 A > ~ A ~ »”
mavTamact pddwov, ovTw dé apeTis Kal Tov GAAwv

1 ¥ ay Shilleto: yoiv mss.

148

PROTAGORAS

advanced to distinction, and where unapt, to ob-
seurity. Often the son of a good player would turn
out a bad one, and often of a bad, a good. But, at
any rate, all would be capable players as compared
with ordinary persons who had no inkling of the art.
Likewise in the present case you must regard any
man who appears to you the most unjust person
ever reared among human laws and society as a just
man and a craftsman of justice, if he had to stand
comparison with people who lacked education and
law courts and laws and any constant compulsion to
the pursuit of virtue, but were a kind of wild folk such
as Pherecrates the poet brought on the scene at last
year’s Lenaeum.! Sure enough, if you found your-
self among such people, as did the misanthropes
among his chorus, you would be very glad to meet
with Eurybatus and Phrynondas,? and would bewail
yourself with longing for the wickedness of the people
here. Instead of that you give yourself dainty airs,
Socrates, because everyone is a teacher of virtue to
the extent of his powers, and you.think there is no
teacher. Why, you might as well ask who is a teacher
of Greek; you would find none anywhere; and I
suppose you might ask, who can teach the sons of our
artisans the very crafts which of course they have
learnt from their fathers, as far as the father was
competent in each case, and his friends who followed
the same trade,—I say if you asked who is to give
these further instruction, I imagine it would be hard,
Socrates, to find them a teacher, but easy enough in
the case of those starting with no skill at all. And
so it must be with virtue and everything else; if

1 A dramatic festival, chiefly for comedies, held about

the end of January. 2 Two notorious rogues.
VOL. IV F2 149

PLATO

mdvrev" aAAa Kav «i dhiyov eort Tus doris dia-
épet Typav mpoBiBdoar eis dperiy, dyamnrov.
dv 8) eyd olua els elvan, al SvapepdvTws av
Tav GMwv avOpuirwv dvijcai' twa mpos TO Kadov
Kat ayabov yeveoBar, Kal dSiens Too poGod ov
mparropat, Kal €Te mAeiovos, wore Kat abr
Soxety TH pabovre. dia Tatra Kal Tov Tpomov
THS mpdtews Too proBod Tovodrov TeTroinwan*
emrevdav yap Tbs map’ € en08 pdOn, eav prev BovAnras,
amodébwKev O eyw mpdTTouar apyvpiov: éay dé
un, eAOwv eis tepdv, oudcas, doov av oH aia
elvan Ta palyuara, Tocodrov KaTéOnKev. ToL0d-
TOV cou, edn, aj LewKpares, eyo Kal p08ov Kal
Adyov elpnKa, ws Sidaxrov dpe?) Kal "AGnvaior
ovTws jyodvras, Kal ort oddev Bavpacrov Tay
dyabév TATEpwv pavrous ulets ylyvecbau Kat
Tov davrAwv dyabouvs, émet kat ot [loAuKAetrou
viets, TlapaAou Kat EavOimmov Tobe HAcKLaTaL,
ovdev mpos TOV TaATépa. tot, .Kat GAXoe ddAwy
Snpwoupy av. THvd_ d€ ovmTw aEvov Toiro KaTN)-
yopety" ért yap ev adrois eiaiv Amides: véot
yap.

IIpwrayopas pev TooatTa Kal Towdra ém-
derEduevos aneravoato Tob Adyov. Kat eye
_ emt ev moAbv xpovo KeknAnjievos € ere mpos avrov
eBXerrov ws €poovr t Th, er Oupav dove érrel
dé 87) jodouny 6 6Tt FB overt TETAVILEVOS etn, poyts
mes ewavTov domepel ous ae elzrov, | BAeas
mpos TOV ‘Inmoxparn ’AzroANodapov,
Ws xdpw gou EXO Ort Ths peli pe ade adixéobau:
roMob yap Towtpat akynkoevar & axjkoa IIpwr:

1 évijca Dobree: vojoa Mss.
150

PROTAGORAS

there is somebody who excels us ever so little in
showing the way to virtue, we must be thankful.
Such an one I take myself to be, excelling all other
men in the gift of assisting people to become good
and true, and giving full value for the fee that I
charge—nay, so much more than full, that the learner
himself admits it. For this reason I have arranged
my charges on a particular plan: when anyone has
had lessons from me, if he likes he pays the sum that
I ask ; if not, he goes to a temple, states on oath the
value he sets on what he has learnt, and disburses
that amount. So now, Socrates, I have shown you
by both fable and argument that virtue is teachable
and is so deemed by the Athenians, and that it is no
wonder that bad sons are born of good father§ and
good of bad, since even the sons of Polycleitus, com-
panions of Paralus and: Xanthippus here, are not
to be compared with their father, and the same is
the case in other craftsmen’s families. As for these
two, it is not fair to make this complaint of them yet;
there is still hope in their case, for they are young.
After this great and fine performance Protagoras
ceased from speaking. As for me, for a good while I
was still under his spell and kept on looking at him
as though he were going to say more, such was my
eagerness to hear:! but when I perceived that he
had really come to a stop, I pulled myself together,
as it were, with an effort, and/looking at Hippocrates
I said: Son of Apollodorus{ I am very grateful to
you for inducing me to come hither ; for it is a great
treat to have heard what I have heard from Prot-
? Or in Milton’s version, Par. Lost, viii. 1-3:

in [my] eare
So charming left his voice, that [I] the while
Thought him still speaking, still stood fixt to hear.

151

“PLATO

, > ‘ A > A ~ ”
ayopov. eyw yap ev pev TH Eutrpoobey xpdvw
jyovpny odk elvar avOpwrivny empéAcrav, 4 dya-
oi ot dyaboi yiyvovra viv d€ mémevopar. Aj
/ , > tA a“ a 4
FP . opmiKpov Ti pou eutrodav, 6 SHAov ott Ipwrayopas
(~padwws éemexdvddaker, emed7 Kal Ta moAAd Tadra
> 4 ‘ \ > la A 7 A ,
efcdidake. Kal yap ei pev Tis Tept adTay ToUTwY
329 avyyévoito oTwoty THv Snunydpwr, tay’ av Kal
> 4
towovtouvs Adyous axovGeev 1 IlepixAgous 7
ddAov twos T&v ixavdv eimeiv: ei S€ eravépouro
td oe , 29O 4 ” ” 5 ’
Twa TL, womep BiBAla ovdev Exovow ovTE aToKpi-
v > UN 3k > > 7 ‘ 4
vacOat ove avroi épéobar, ddd’ édv tis Kal opixpov
~ e / v A
emepwTjon Te Tav pybevTwr, wgmep Ta xaAKia’
> a
mAnyevTa paKpov "xsl Ka ee €av 41)
, — € es er
emAdBytat tis, Kal Of prjropes oUTW opiKpa
B épwrnfevtes Sddtxyov Karareivovot Tob XAdyov.
IIpwraydpas Sé dd ixavos pev paxpods Adyous
A \ > A e + AG a e ‘ \
Kat Kadovs eimeiv, ws attra Sndroi, ixavos 8é€
Kal épwrnfeis amoxpivacba. Kara Bpayd xa
» ae ~ , ‘ > / A
€popevos mepyeivat te Kat amode€acba. ri
amoKpiow, & dAiyois éoTl mapeckevacpeva. viv
otv, © IIpwraydpa, opixpod twos evdens eiue
mavr €xew, € or amoKpivato Téde. THY apeTiy
i \ — ‘ > \ ” »”
dys SiWaxrov elvar, Kai eyo ecizep aGMw Tw
. awOpadrwv meloiuny dv, Kal oot metOoua- 6
Ce | 4, , / a fs > ~ lod
C 8 eBavpaca cov Aéyovtos, TobTd por ev TH boys
amomAjpwaov. édeyes yap ott 6 Leds rip
Sikavoovvyy Kal THY aid@® méepipere Tois avOparrais,
Kat ad moA\axot év tots Adyos eAéyero bad cod
% Sixawoctvn Kai owdpoctvn Kal doidtys Kal

1 yadkla Cobet: xadxela mss,
152

PROTAGORAS

I used formerly to think that there was no
_ human treatment by which the good were made good,
but now I am convinced that there is. Only I find
one slight difficulty, which Protagoras will of course
easily explain away, since he has explained so many
puzzles already. If one should be present when any
of the public speakers were dealing with these same
subjects, one could probably hear similar discourses
from Pericles or some other able speaker: but
suppose you put a question to one of them—they
are just like books, incapable of either answering you
or putting a question of their own; if you question
even a small point in what has been said, just as
brazen vessels ring a long time after they have been
struck and prolong the note unless you put your hand
on them, these orators too, on being asked a little
question, extend their speech over a full-length
course. But Protagoras here, while able to deliver,
as events have shown, a long and excellent speech,
is also able when questioned to reply briefly, and
after asking a question to await and accept the
answer—accomplishments that few can claim. And
now, Protagoras, there is one little thing wanting to
the completeness of what I have got, so please
answer me this. You say that virtue may be taught,
and if there is anybody in the world who could
convince me, you are the man: but there was a
point in your speech at which I wondered, and on
which my spirit would fain be satisfied. You said
that Zeus had sent justice and respect to mankind,
and furthermore it was frequently stated in your
discourse that justice, temperance, holiness and the

1 The metaphor is of a long-distance race of about 2}
miles.

153

PLATO

mavra TavTa. as ev Tu en ovhAn Bony, dpery
Tatr’ obv adra SicADE por axpiBGs TO Aoyw,
mOTEpov Ev ev Ti eoTW 7 apeTH, opia dé avdris
eoTiv 7 Suxaootvn Kal cwdpoatvn Kal sovdrns,
D 7) tTab7’ earl & viv 8) eyw edeyov mavTa dvopara
Tov avdTod Evos ovTos: Toor €otiv 6 ert emuTo0a.
AMG pgdiov Tobrs y j eon, & Uapares,
dmoxpivacbas, 6Tt €vos 6vTOS THs Gperis popud.
eoTw a epurds. Il6repov, epyy, dorep mpoow-
Ld
Tov Ta popta pepud éo7t, o7dpa TE Kal pis Kal
dfbaduot Kai dra, 7) woTep TA TOO xpvood popia
oddev Suadeper Ta erepa TOV eTepuv, aA Awov
Kat Tod ddov, add’ 7 peyeBer Kat OpuKpornte ;
*Exeivws poe paiverar, @ Uadpares, womep Td,
E tod mpoow7ov pdpia exer mpos TO GAov mpdcwroV.
Ilorepov ovr, iy ie Yo, Kat perahapBdvovow
of dvOpwrrou TovTwY ‘TOV Tis dperis popiwv of
ev iMo, of 8é dAdo, 4) dvdy«n, edvmep Tis ev
AdBn, amar’ exew; Ovddapds, én, eel rroAAol
avdpetot elow, adicor Sé, Kai Sixator ad, codoi
Sé ov. “Kort yap obtv Kat tatra pdpia Tis
330 dperis, epnv eyw, oodia te Kal avdpeia; Idvrwv
pdrvora Srmov, bn: Kal péeyiotov ye H aodia
T&v popiwy., “Exaorov, dé avray éotiv, hv 8 eyo,
GAdo; To 8€ GAAo; Nai. 7H Kai ddvapw abrdv
~teapres tBlaw Eyer ; @omep. ta Tod mpoowrou,
ovk éotw odbaducs ofov ta Bra, 088’ 7 Sv¥vapus
av7Tod 1 atdrty oddé THv GAAwy oddev eorw ofov
TO €repov ovTe KaTa THY SUvapyw ovUTE KaTa Ta
dda: dp’ obv otrw Kai Ta THs dpeTis udpia *odK
154

PROTAGORAS

rest were all but one single thing, virtue: pray, now
proceed to deal with these in more precise exposition,
stating whether virtue is a single thing, of which
justice and temperance and holiness are parts, or
whether the qualities I have just mentioned are all
names of the same single thing. This is what I am
still hankering after.

Why, the answer to that is easy; Socrates, he
replied: it is that virtue is a single thing and the
qualities in question are parts of it.

Do you mean parts, I asked, in the sense of the
parts of a face, as mouth, nose, eyes, and ears ; or, as
in the parts of gold, is there no difference among the
pieces, either between the parts or between a part
and the whole, except in greatness and smallness ?

In the former sense, I think, Socrates ; as the parts
of the face are to the whole face.

Well then, I continued, when men partake of these
portions of virtue, do some have one, and some an-
other, or if you get one, must you have them all ?

By no means, he replied, since many are brave but
unjust, and many again are just but not wise.

Then are these also parts of virtue, I asked—
wisdom and courage ?

Most certainly, I should say, he replied ; and of the ~
parts, wisdom is the greatest.

Each of them, I proceeded, is distinct from any
other ?

Yes.

Does each also have its particular function? Just
as, in the parts of the face, the eye is not like the
ears, nor is its function the same; nor is any of the
other parts like another, in its function or in any
other respect: in the same way, are the parts of

155

PLATO

” a @
B €ort 1O Erepov olov 7d €repov, ovre atro ovre
¢ PS) la > a. n”“ yy A a 4 ”
% Svvapis adrod; 7 a 81) OTe otrws exe,
” A t , ” ? 2 2
elmep TH mapadeiypati ye €ouxev; *AAX ovrws,
édn, exer, & Xedkpares.// cal ey elmov: Ovdev
dpa €oTt THY THs apeThs popiwy ado olov ém-
/ 29? ta 29? > /
oT7nun, 00d olov duxatocdvn, 00d’ olov avdpeia,
0% olov awdpoatvyn, ovd’ ofov dans. OvdK
” ld , ” > 7 ~
edn. Dépe 8H, edynv eyd, Kowh oxedpcba
moiov Te a’ta@v eéotiv E€KxaoTov. ~ mp@rov » pev
C ro rowvde: 7 Sucaoodvy mpayyd. Tl éorw 7
ovdev mpay ya. ; €wot pev yap Boxes: Ti de got;
Kai euot, edn. Ti odv; et tis Epoiro eye Te
Kal o€* @ IIpwraydpa TE Kal _daxpares, €lmeTov
57 plot, TodTO TO mpayya, 6 dvopdoare aprt,
u) Sucaroowvn, adTo Tobro dixasov eorw q ad.Kov ;
ey pev av adrt@ amoxpwaipnv ote Sixaov: od
‘ ~ a A >
d¢ tiv’ dv Pidov Oeio; Irv adrnv emot 7H aAAnv;
\ > , ” ” ” ~ €
Ti adrnv, én. “Eotw dpa towdrov 7 Sicaso-
, ” 4
D ovvn ofov Sixaov elvar, painv av éyuye amo-
~ ~ ‘ 4,
Kpwopevos TH epwrOvte> ovKodv Kai ov; Nai,
»” > > \ ~ e€ lod ” b} ~
édy. Ei odv peta totro Aas Epovro: odKody
“Kal dowrnra twa dare elvar; datwev dv, ws
éyaua. Nat, 7 8 ds. Ovdxotv dare xai
| a , _§ a * me ‘
Tovro mpayya Te elvat; daipev av: H ov; Kat
todro ovvedyn. IIdrepov 5€ todro adbro ro mpé-
ype gare ToLovToV mepuKevaut olov dvdqvov elvau
} olov davov; dyavaxripoary’ dv éywy’, édnv,
” *
T® epwrnpart, Kal etroun” av" cdpnpet, j
E dvOpwre: axodj pevr’ av te dAdo daov etn, ef

156

PROTAGORAS

virtue unlike each other, both in themselves and in
their functions? Are they not evidently so, if the
analogy holds ?

Yes, they are so, Socrates, he said.

So then, I went on, among the parts of virtue,
no other part is like knowledge, or like justice, or
like courage, or like temperance, or like holiness.

He agreed.

Come now, I said, let us consider together what
sort of thing is each of these parts. First let us ask,
is justice something, or not a thing at all? I think
it is ; what do you say?

So do I, he replied.

Well then, suppose someone should ask you and
me: Protagoras and Socrates, pray tell me this—
the thing you named just now, justice, is that itself
just or unjust? I should reply, it is just: what
would your verdict be? The same as mine or
different ?

The same, he said.

Then justice, I should say in reply to our questioner,
is of a kind that is just : would you also ?

Yes, he said.

Now suppose he proceeded to ask us : Do you also

speak of a “holiness”? We should say we do, I
fancy.

Yes, he said.

Then do you call this a thing also? We should
say we do, should we not ?

He assented again.

Do you say this thing itself is of such nature as to
be unholy, or holy? For my part I should be
annoyed at this question, I said, and should answer :
Hush, my good sir! It is hard to see how anything

157

331

PLATO
pi) avrn ye oT davorns dovov corae. a d€ at; ovdx
ovTws dy drroKpivato ; Tdvv pe oov, en.

Ei ody peta tobtr’ etmor epurav meas: TOS
ody dXiyov | mpotepov éAdyere; ap ovK opbas
pay KaTHKOVOG.; edogare prot pavar Ta THS
dperijs pdpia elvar ovTws exovra, mpos adAnra,
ws ovK elva TO Erepov abray olov To , eTEpOV"

-elrroup’ av eywye ort TO. bev adda opbas 7 TMKovaas,

6tt S€ Kal ee ole. elmeiy tobTo, TaprKoveas*
I pwraydpas yap o0d€ Tatra drexpivato, éyw
dé Hpwrwv. et ovv e€t7ot- adn 7} 68¢ A€éyet, @

Ipwrayépa_; ov Pijs ovK elvan TO ETEpov dptov
otov TO érepov Tav Tis dperijs ; aos ovTos 6
Adyos forts Ti av atta dzroxpivato ; ; ‘Avdynn,
én, @ UdxKpares, Spodoyetv. Ti otv, & agi
ayopa, drroxpwovpeba aire, tara Spodoyi}

oavres, ed qpas emavepyTau ovK dpa eortiv
doudrns olov dixaov elvau mpayy.a, ovde Sucato-
oun olov davov, aAd’ ofov pu) dovov" a) s oovorns
olov ea Sixatov, ard’ aducov dpa., TO be dvdovor ;
Ti avT@ Groxpwovpeba; ey pev yap advdros
bmép ye ewavTod painv dy Kal TH Sucacoovyyy
OoLov elvar Kab THY doernTa. Sixavov" Kal omep
aod 8, et pe eons, Tabra av Tadra Grroxpwoiwny,
ort Troe Tabrdv y €ore Sucarorns OaLdTynTL 7) OTL
Opororaror, Kal pahora mdvriy UI Te SiKacoovvy
olov dawrTns Kal 1% sowrTns otov SdiKaoovvy.
GAN dpa, et Siakwdvers amoxpivecbat, 7 Kal gol
ovvdoket ottws. Od mavv por Soxet, edn, @
Lewkpares, ovtws amrAotv elvar, wore ovyxyw-
phoa. tiv te Suxaootvnv cov.ov elvar Kal THY

158

PROTAGORAS

could be holy, if holiness itself is not to be holy!
And you—would you not make the same reply ?

Certainly I would, he said.

Now suppose he went on to ask us: Well, and
what of your statement a little while since? Perhaps
I did not hear you aright, but I understood you two
to say that the parts of virtue are in such a relation
to each other that one of them is not like another.
Here my answer would be: As to the substance of
it, you heard aright, but you made a mistake in
' thinking that I had any share in that statement. It
was Protagoras here who made that answer ; I was
only the questioner. Then suppose he were to ask :
Is our friend telling the truth, Protagoras? Is it
you who say that one part of virtue is not like an-
other? Is this statement yours? What answer
would you’ give him ?

I must needs admit it, Socrates, he said.

Well now, Protagoras, after that admission, what
answer shall we give him, if he goes on to ask this
question: Is not holiness something of such nature
as to be just, and justice such as to be holy, or can
it be unholy? Can holiness be not just, and therefore
unjust, and justice unholy? What is to be our
reply? I should say myself, on my own behalf, that
both justice is holy and holiness just, and with your
permission I would make this same reply for you
also; since justness is either the same thing as
holiness or extremely like it, and above all, justice is
of the same kind as holiness, and holiness as justice.
Are you minded to forbid this answer, or are you in
agreement with it ?

I do not take quite so simple a view of it, Socrates,
as to grant that justice is holy and holiness just. I

159

332

PLATO

daidrnta Sikavov, adAd ai jou Soxet ev attra
dudpopov elvat. dAda ti Tobro dvadédpe; edn:
ei yap Bovhev, €oTw wiv Kat Sucaroovvn OoLov
kal downs Sixatov. My pou, Hv = eye ovdev
yap Séoua ro et _Bovaet TobTo Kal el gou Soxet
eAeyxeoBar, aan’ ene Te Kal o€* TO 8 ewe te Kal
aé tobro réyw, oldpevos ovrw Tov Adyov BéArior”
av ehéyxeoban, el Tis TO et adeAoe adrod. “AMa
HEVTOL, a] 8° os, mpooéou€ Tt Succuoovyn dovdrytt
kat yap oriobv oTwoby deh yé 7M mpoa€ouKe.
TO yap AevKov TO weravt €orw omy TpooeouKe,
Kal TO okAnpov 7TH padaka, Kat TaMa a& doKet
evavtubtata elvar aMArjous* Kal G& TOTE epapev
GAAnv Sivapw exew Kai odk elvar To Erepov olov
TO ETEpov, TA TOD TpodwrTov pdpLa, GUA ye 7
mpocéouke Kal €oTt TO ETEpov olov TO ETEpoy'
wate TovUTH ye TO Tpomy Kav Tatra eAéyxous,
ei BovAowo, as dmavrd. core Opowa aAAnAots.
GAN’ odyi Ta Spoudy TU éxovra. opova Sixavov
kaXeiv, odd€ Ta dvduoudy TL exovTa avdpowa, Kav
Tdavu opiKpov éxn TO dpuovov. Kat eyo Oavpacas
elzov mpos adrov, "H yap ottw aor Td Sixatov
Kai TO Govov mpos aAAyAa exer, Wore Gpovv Tt
opixpov éxew GAAjdros; Od mdvu, &dn, ovrws,
ov pevrou ovde ad aos av pow Soxeis olecbat.
“AMA pny, ebay eye, ered) dvoxepas doxeis
pooe éxew m™pos TodTo, Todro pev edowpev, Tdd€
dé dAdo dy Edeyes emioxeipeba.

"Adpoovvny te Kadeis; “Edn. Totrw To

~ , > 4
mpaypat. ov wav Tovvaytiov earl 7 godia;

160

PROTAGORAS

thinkewe:bete to meke a distinction here. Yet what
difference does it make ? he said: if you like, let us
assume that justice is holy and holiness just.

No, no, I said ; I do not want this “‘ if you like ”’ or
“if you agree ”’ sort of thing! to be put to the proof,
but you and me together; and when I say “ you
and me” I mean that our statement will be most
properly tested if we take away the “ if.”

_ Well, at any rate, he said, justice has some resem-

blance to holiness; for anything in the world has
some sort of resemblance to any other thing. Thus
there is a point in which white resembles black, and
- hard soft, and so with all the other things which are
regarded as most opposed to each other; and the
things which we spoke of before as having different
faculties and not being of the same kind as each
other—the parts of the face—these in some sense
resemble one another and are of like sort. In this
way therefore you could prove, if you chose, that even
these things are all like one another. But it is not
fair to describe things as like which have some point
alike, however small, or as unlike that have some
point unlike.

This surprised me, and I said to him: What, do
you regard just and holy as so related to each other
that they have only some small point of likeness ?

Not so, he replied, at all, nor yet, on the other
hand, as I believe you regard them.

Well then, I said, since I find you chafe at this
suggestion, we will let it pass, and consider another
instance that you gave. Is there a thing you call folly?

Yes, he said. .

Is not the direct opposite to that thing wisdom ?

1 Cf. below, 333 c,
161

PLATO

”
Epouye Soxet, &fyn. drepov 8& Grav mpdr-
Twow avOpwro dpbds re Kal wdeAiws, TdT.
awdpovety aor Soxodow otrw mpdrrovres, 7
[et] rtodvavriov [éxparrov]!; Lwdpoveiv, edn.
~ ~ >
OvKobiv cwdpoctvn cwhpovotcw; *Avdyen. Odx-
~ e \ > ~ , > ¥ /
obv ot un Opbds mpdrrovres adpovws mpdrrovar
‘ > ~ 7 , a
kal ov awdpovodow otrw mparrovres; Luvdoxe?
” > , La > A 4 > /
po, €dn. Todtvartiov dpa eoti ro adpdovws
mparrew 7 aowdpdvws; “Edn. Odxoiv ra
A > , / > 7 7
pev adpovws mpartoueva adpootvn mparrerar,
,
Ta 5€ awhpovws swdpootvyn; ‘Quodrdye. Odx-
otv et te loxvi mparrera, ioxvp@s mpdrrerar,
Kat el tt aobeveia, dobevds; “ESdne. Kal ef
A / 7 ‘ ” \ ~ "
TL pEeTa TAXOUS, TAaXews, Kai Et TL eTa Bpaduriros,
Bpadéws; “Edn. Kai et 7 87 woadtws apdr-
Tera, 010 TOO avTod mpadrreTat, Kal El Te evay-
tiws, U7d Tob evavtiov; Luvédn. Depe Sy, jv
8 éyd, core te Kaddv;* Lovexwper. Tovrw
” b] / a, A > / ° O by] ”
gore TL evavtiov mAjv TO aicxpdv; OvdK éorw.
> 4 ”
Ti 8€; é€o7t mt dyabdv; “Eorw. Tovrm eon

1 el et éxparrov secl. Stallbaum.
162

PROTAGORAS

I think so, he said.

And when men behave rightly ues usefully, do you
consider them temperate in so behaving, or the
opposite ?

Temperate, he said.

Then is it by temperance that they are temperate ?

Necessarily.

Now those who do not raat rightly behave
foolishly, and are not temperate in so behaving ?

I agree, he said.

And behaving foolishly is the opposite to behaving
temperately ?

Yes, he said.

Now foolish behaviour is due to folly, and tem-
perate behaviour to temperance ?

He assented.

And whatever is done by strength is done strongly,
and whatever by weakness, weakly ?

He agreed.

And whatever with swiftness, swiftly, and what-
ever with slowness, slowly ?

Yes, he said.

And so whatever is done in a certain way is done
_ by that kind of faculty, and whatever in an opposite
way, by the opposite kind ?

He agreed.

Pray now, I proceeded, is there such a thing as the
beautiful ?

He granted it.

Has this any opposite except the ugly ?

None.

Well, is there such a thing as the good ?

There is.

Has it any opposite but the evil ?

163

PLATO
tT. evavtiov mAnv TO KaKov; Odx éorw. Ti 8é;
éoTt te O€0 ev dwvq; “Edn. Tovrw pa) éore
Tt evavtiov dAdo mAjnv To Bapd; Ovtn édn. Odx-
~ > > > , £-% ec / ~ > , a
obv, Hv 8 eyw, evi EéxdoTw Tav evavTiwvy &v
D pévov éotiv évaytiov Kal od} mod; LXuvwpoddyer.
"lh 5, Hv & eyed, avadoyicducba ta wpodo-
> Y
, tc a e , “a @- x / >
ynueva Hiv. wpodroyjKayev Ev evi pdvoy éevav-
tiov elvar, mAciw Sé py; “Quodoyjxapev. To
S€ evavtiws mpatropevov bo éevavtiwv mpdtrecba ;
"Edn. ‘Quodoyjxapev 5é evavriws mparrecbar
“a nn > / /, ~ ,
6 av adpovws mpatrnra: T@ aswdhpdovws mpatTo-
,
pew; “Edn. To 8€ owdpdvws mparropevov
A > ,
tmd awhpoatvns mpdtrecbar, To Se adpdvws
~ >
E b70 adpoovvyns; LXvvexdper. Odxodv etrep evav-
> »”
tTiws mparrerat, Um eévavtiov mpatroir av;
ta
Nai. IIpdarrerar 5€ 7o-péev bro owdpoovrns,
: £
76 S€ bd adpootvns; Nai. ’Evavtiws; Ilavv
~ , >
ye. Odxodv td evaytiwy ovtwv; Nat. *“Evav-
tA ,
tiov ap éotiv adpootvn swdpootvys; Daiverat.

164

PROTAGORAS

None.
Tell me, is there such a thing as “ shrill” in the
voice ?
Yes, he said.
Has it any other opposite than “ deep.”
No, he said.
Now, I went on, each single opposite has but one
opposite, not many ?
He admitted this.
Come now, I said, let us reckon up our points of
ent. We have agreed that one thing has but
.one opposite, and no more ?
We have.
And that what is done in an opposite way is done
by opposites ?
Yes, he said.
And we have agreed that what is done foolishly is
done in an opposite way to what is done temperately ?
Yes, he said.
And that what is done temperately is done by
temperance, and what foolishly by folly ?
He assented. . ;
Now if it is done in an opposite way, it must be
done by an opposite ?
Yes?
And one is done by temperance, and the other by
folly ?
Yes.
In an opposite way ?
Certainly.
And by opposite faculties ?
es.
Then folly is opposite to temperance ?
Apparently.

165

333

PLATO

, @ > 7” ” e /,
Méprnoon obv OTu ev tots eumpoobev wpodAdynras
Hiv adpoovvy oodia evavTiov elvas; ; Luvepo-
Adyer. “Ev 8€ vi pdvov evavtiov elvar; Dnpi.
IIdrepov obv, & Ipwraydpa, Wowpev Tdv Adywr;
TO €&v évt povov éevavriov elvar, 7) exetvov ev @
ed€yeto Erepov elvac awdpootvns godia, pLopLov
dé exdTepov apeTis, Kal mpos TH ErEpov civar
Kat avopoiwa Kat avTa Kal at Suvdpers adrav,
womep Ta TOO mpoow7ov popia; moTepov ov
§ \ , e 18 ¢ r , > , >

7 AVowuev; odToL yap of Adyor auddtepor od
mdvu povouds A€yovray od yap auvddovow
ide / > aN ~ A a
ovd€ ovvapudrrovaw aAdAjAos. mas yap av
ouvgdouev, elmep ye avayKn evi pev Ev povov
evavriov elvar, mAcioow Sé pn, TH Se _ appoatyy
évi ovre copia € évavria Kai owppoovyn) ad daiverat:
h yap, ® IIpwraydpa, ednv eyo, 7 aAAws mws;
@) Ad ‘ dn’ > / O > ~ a *
woroynoe Kal pad’ akdvTws. dKoby év av

” e 4 ‘ ¢ , \ de ,
eln 7) owdpootvn Kai 7 aodia; To dé mpdrepov
gS 3 7 ee ee ¢€ 4, a, fee 2 / /
ad epavn jutv 7 Suxasoodvyn Kal 7) dowTns ayeddov

o. % ” w, / >, > , > ,
Tt Tavrov ov. i dy, iv 8 eyo, d Ipwraydpa,
A > , > \ ‘ A Xr \

pq) amokduwuev, adAAa Kat ta Nowra diacKe-
weopeba. dpa tis cor Soe? adiKadv avOpwros
a id 19 a Ai ’ ba) ” >
owdpoveivy, Ott adixet; Aioyvvoiunv av éywy’,
” = bY 7 ~ c mY cal > A AA /
eon, & Ldpares, todo opodoyeiv, emet roMot
ye pact Tov avOpamran. Ilérepov odv mpos
exeivous Tov Adyov TrOLTOpAL, eon, 7 mpos o€;
Ei BovAa, &fn, mpos Tobrov mp@rov tov Adyov
diardxOnr. tov tav ToAAdv. *AAN ovdev prot
, 24 t , > , v9 a.
Suad€per, €dv podvov ad ye amoxpivyn, elt odv

166

PROTAGORAS

Now do you recollect that in the previous stage
we have agreed that folly is opposite to wisdom? /

He admitted this.

And that one thing has but one opposite ?

Yes.

Then which, Protagoras, of our propositions are
we to reject—the statement that one thing has but
one opposite ; or the other, that wisdom is different
from temperance, and each is a part of virtue, and
moreover, a different part, and that the two are as
unlike, both in themselves and in their faculties,
as the parts of the face? Which are we to upset?
The two of them together are not quite in tune;
they do not chime in harmony. How could they,
if one thing must needs have but one opposite and
no more, while wisdom, and temperance likewise,
appear both to be opposite to folly, which is a single
thing? Such is the position, Protagoras, I said ;
or is it otherwise ?

He admitted it was so, much against his will.

Then temperance and wisdom must be one thing ?.
And indeed we found before that justice and holiness
were almost the same thing. Come, Protagoras, I
said, let us not falter, but carry out our inquiry to
the end. Tell me, does a man who acts unjustly
seem to you to be temperate in so acting ?

- [should be ashamed, Socrates, he replied, to admit
that, in spite of what many people say.

Then shall I address my argument to them, I
asked, or to you?

If you please, he answered, debate first against
that popular theory.

It is all the same to me, I said, so long as you
make answer, whether it be your own opinion or

167

<>)

334

PLATO

Soxe? oot tabra, elre uy. Tov yap Adyov eywye
af ,
padiora eLerdlw, cvpBaiver pévtor tows Kal
> A ‘ > ~
€“e TOV epwra@vTa Kal TOV amoKpwopevov e&e-
raleoba.
‘ ~ a
To pev ody mp&rov exadAwmilero iptv 6 pwr-
/ , a ~
ayopas' tov yap Adyov jriato Svoyeph elvac:
” , , > Ud ”
ETELTA pLevTOL auvvexwpnoey amoKpivecOar. “1A
54 : A A
57, ednv eyw, e& apyfs wot amoKpwat. SoKovdot
, a > ~ ” ”
Twées oot owdpoveiv adixodvres; “Eotw, én.
aA a ‘
To 5€ awdpoveiv Aéyers ed dpovetv; "Edn. To
8 « dpovety eb BovdcveoPar, dre ddikodow;
"Eorw, én. ldrepov, jv 8 eyed, ei eb mpdrrov-
ow dduodvres 7) ef Kxaxas; Ei ed. Aéyeis
otv ayaba arta elvat; Aéyw. Ap’ ody, jv
8 éyd, tatr’ eorlv ayabd, & éorw wpéAma Tots
avOpwHmos; Kai vat pa Av’, édn, Kav pq Tots
avOparros wdeAya 7, eywye KaAd ayaa. Kai
299 7 ¢ , ” , =
poor eddxer 6 IIpwrayopas 75n teTpaxvvOar Te
Kal aywvdv Kal maparerdyOar mpos TO amo-
/ y > \ je es 1 ewe | MA ”
KpivecOau ézeid1) obv Edpwv adbrov odTws ExovTa,
evrAaBovpevos jpeua jpounv. Ildrepov, qv 8
Malt / > , ee _ 1 23 fs) ,
eyw, Ayers, @ Ipwraydpa, a pyndevi avOpdirwv
wdérApd eoTw, 7 a pndé TO mapdray wdeAya;
‘ ‘ ~ A > \ cal by] ~
Kal Ta Towadtra od ayaba Kadreis; Ovddapyds,
edn? GAN eywye moAda old’ & avOpawmos per
168

PROTAGORAS

not. For although my first object is to test the
argument, the result perhaps will be that both I,
the questioner, and my respondent are brought to
the test. ;

At first Protagoras appeared to be coy, alleging |
that the argument was too disconcerting : however |
he consented at length to make answer. Well now,
I said, begin at the beginning, and tell me, do you
consider people to be temperate when they are
unjust ?

Let us suppose so, he said.

oo by being temperate you mean being sensible ?

es.

And being sensible is being well-advised in their
injustice ?

Let us grant it, he said.

Does this mean, I asked, if they fare well by their
injustice, or if they fare ill ? :

If they fare well.

ists do you say there are things that are good ?

oO.

Then, I_asked, are those things good which are
profitable to men ?

Oh yes, to be sure, he replied, and also when they
are not profitable to men I call them good.

Here Protagoras seemed to me to be in a
thoroughly provoked and harassed state, and to
have set his face against answering: so when I
saw him in this mood I grew wary and went gently
with my questions. Do you mean, Protagoras, I
asked, things that are profitable to no human being,
or things not profitable in any way at all? Can you
eall such things as these good ?

By no means, he replied ; but I know a number of

169

PLATO

dvadeAh eori, Kat outia kai word Kal ddpwaka
Kat dAda pupia, Ta dé ye apeduua va dé dvOpa-
Tous peev ovderepa, b tmmous dé- ra 5é Bovoi pdvor,
7a Sé Kvoi: Ta Sé ye TovTwv pev ovdevi, dévdpois
dé- ra 5é rod Sévdpou Tats pew pilaus dyabd,
Tais de PAdoraus movnpd, ofov Kal 1% KOTpos,
TavTwv TOV puray Tats pev pilas ayabov mapa
BadAopnern, <i 8 eBédAo1s emi rods mrdépbous Kat
Tovs véous KAdvas émBddAew, mdvra amddAvow:
evel Kat TO eAatov Tots pev duTois amaciv éort
md&yKakov Kal tats Opiéi moAdeuwudrarov ais
Ttav aAkwy Cawv mAjv tais tod avOpdov, rats
Sé Tod avOpwmov dpwydv kal T@ GAw oadpare.
ovtw S€ mouidov ti éott TO ayabov Kal mavTo-
damdv, ware Kal evtaia tots pev e€wlev rod
owpatos ayabov éort TH avOpwmw, Tots 5° evros
TavTd TodTO KdKLoTOV* Kal dia TodTo of iarpol
mavrTes amayopevouvar Tots dobevobor py xphobat
éXaiw add’ 7) Gotu opiKpotatw év rtovrots ols
péedrer edec8ar, Scov pdvov tiv Svayépevay Kara-
oBéou tiv emi tais aicOjoect Tals bia TOY pwav
yuyvonevynv ev Tois ouriows Te Kal dyous.

Kimévros otv ratra adrod of mapdvres av-
eJopvBnoav os A€you Kal éyw elzov- *O
Ilpwraydpa, eyo Tuyxdven emuAnjopenv Tis Ov
avOpwmos, Kat édv ais pot pakpa A€yn, ém-
AavOdvoyat tepi ob} dv 7% 6 Adyos. Womep ody,
ei érdyyavov imékwhos wy, mov av xphvat,
elmrep eweMés pLou SiarefecBar, peiLov PleyyeoIat
7) mpos Tods aAAous, ovTw Kal viv, émeidy ém-

170

PROTAGORAS

things that are unprofitable to men, namely, foods,
drinks, drugs, and countless others, and some that
are profitable ; some that are neither one nor the
other to men, but are one or the other to horses ;
and some that are profitable only to cattle, or again
to dogs; some also that are not profitable to any
of those, but are to trees; and some that are good
for the roots of a tree, but bad for its shoots—such
as dung, which is a good thing when applied to the
roots of all plants, whereas if you chose to cast it
on the young twigs and branches, it will ruin all.
And oil too is utterly bad for all plants, and most
deadly for the hair of all animals save that of man,
while to the hair of man it is helpful, as also to the
rest of his body. The good is such an elusive and
diverse thing that in this instance it is good for the -
outward parts of man’s body, but at the same time
as bad as can be for the inward ;' and for this reason
all doctors forbid the sick to take oil, except the
smallest possible quantity, in what one is going to
eat—just enough to quench the loathing that
arises in the sensations of one’s nostrils from food
and its dressings.1

When he had thus spoken, the company acclaimed
it as an excellent answer; and then I remarked:
Protagoras, I find I am a forgetful sort of person,
and if someone addresses me at any length I forget
the subject on which he is talking. So, just as you,
in entering on a discussion with me, would think
fit to speak louder to me than to others if I happened
to be hard of hearing, please bear in mind now that
you have to deal with a forgetful person, and there-

bs poly such oil had a specially appetizing flavour or
scen'

171

E

.

335

PLATO

, >
Ajopov. evervyes, ovvTeuve por Tas drroKpicets
A , , > , 4
kat Bpaxvtépas oie, ef péAAw oor éEmeoba.
II ~ Ss Xr , , > , of a“
@s obv Kedevers pre Bpaxéa amoxpivecba; 7
7, 4 »” > , n“ ~
Bpaxvrepd oor, éfn, amoxpivwua 7 det; My-
Sapads, Hv & ey. AX’ doa Set; edn. Nai,
> a ~
qv & eya. IIdrepa odv doa ewot Soxet Seiv
amoxpivecOa, tocatrd cor amoKpivwpyat, H doa
, > , ~ > uN RAS 4 \ , >
cot; “AxyKoa yodv, qv 8 eyw, ott avd olds T
ef kal adros kal dAdov didaéar wept tov adrdv
‘ A , 2\ 7 MA ¢ ‘
kal paxpa A€yew, eav BovdAn, ovrws, wore Tov
/ , > ~ A tf M4
Adyov pndérore emduretv, kal ad Bpayéa ovrws,
wate pndeva aod ev Bpaxutépois eimetv: «i obv
~ ~ 4
péAres eo SiadekeoOar, TH ETepw xp@ Tpomw
~ > ‘
mpos we, TH Bpaxvdroyia. °Q Xadxpares, En, eyo
an A > > ~ /, > / > ,
moAdots 75n eis aydva Adywv adixounv avOpd-
~ LZ
Tous, Kal €L TOUTO emoiovv 6 avd KeEAEVELS, WS O
avriréywy éexéAevé pe Siaréyeo8ar, ovrw SieAc-
- > ”
younv, ovdevds dv BeAtiwv edawounv odd’ av
t ee l4 mw > a @
eyévero IIpwraydpov dvoua ev tots “EAAnow.
Kal eyi—éyvwy yap ott odK Hpecev adros avT@
tats dmoKpioeot tais éumpooberv, Kat drt ovK
ecAjoor éExwv elvar amoxpwopevos SiadeyecBar—
Hhynodevos odkérTe euov epyov eivat mapeivar ev
~ , > / ” 3 ,
tats ovvovoias, “Add tor, ednv, & Ilpwraydpa,
odd éyd mapas exw mapa Ta aot dSoxodivra
aA > > ‘A ‘
tiv auvovoiay hiv ylyvecba, GAd’ émedav ad
4 ¢
BovaAn SiadéyecBar ws ey Svvayar emecba,
/ , ‘ 4A /, J A /,
Tote cor SiadcEopar. od pev yap, ws A€yerau
172

PROTAGORAS

fore cut up your answers into shorter pieces, that
I may be able to follow you.

Well, what do you mean by short answers? he
asked: do you want me to make them shorter than
they should be ?

ot at all, I said.

As long as they should be? he asked.

Yes, I said.

Then are my answers to be as long as I think they
should be, or as you think they should be ?

Well, for instance, I have heard, I said, that you
yourself are able, in treating one and the same
subject, not only to instruct another person in it
but to speak on it at length, if you choose, without
ever being at a loss for matter; or again briefly,
so as to yield to no one in brevity of expression.
So, if you are going to argue with me, employ with
me the latter method, that of brevity.

Socrates, he said, I have undertaken in my time
many contests of speech, and if I were to do what
you demand, and argue just in the way that my
opponent demanded, I should not be held superior
to anyone nor would Protagoras have made a name
among the Greeks.

Then, as I saw that he had not been quite satisfied
with himself in making his former answers, and that
he would not readily accept the part of answerer
in debate, I considered it was not my business
to attend his meetings further, and remarked :
But you know, Protagoras, I too feel uncomfortable
about our having this discussion against your
inclination ; but when you agree to argue in such a
way that I can follow, then I will argue with you.
For you—as people relate of you, and you yourself

VOL. IV G 173

336

PLATO

mrepl 00, djs Se Kat airés, kal ev paxpodroyia
Kal ev Bpaxvroyia olds T el ovvovotas mrovetoban-
codos yap ef éeyw b€ ra pwaxpa Tatra ddvvaros,
érrel éBovdcuny av olds 7 elvat. dAAd oe expiy
qty ovyxwpety TOV dpupdrepa Suvdpevor, iva
gvvovoia éylyvero: viv dé erred) ovK eOédets
Kal €uol Tis aoxoAia €oTt Kal ovK av olds T° Elnv
Gol Tapapetvar arroteivovTt pakpovs Adyous—
eOciv yap mot pe Set—elu: emet Kali Tadr’ day
tows ovK and@s oov Kovov. Kat aya Tatr
etmeby avioTapny ws drudy- Kat _pov dyiara.-
pLévov emAapBaverau 6 Kaddias ris _xetpos Th
defua, Th 5 dpiotepa avteAdBero Tob _. TPBavos
Tovrovt, Kal elev: Ov. adroopev oe, ® LeKpa-
Tes* é€av yap od e€€dOns, ody dpoiws hpiv Eoovrat
ot didAoyor. Séopar obv cov mrapaeetvar piv:
ws eye) ov’ dv évos Hdvov aKovoauyu 7) ood
TE Kat TIpwraydpov Svareyopevany dAAd. xdproat
jp maow. Kal eye elrov—15n be dvevor Hien
ws efucov—* Q. rai ‘Inmovixou, del bev eyuye
gov THY pirocogiay ayaa, drd.p Kal viv erawd
Kat Pir, ware Bovrotuny a xapileobai got,
el pov dSuvata Sdéquo: viv 8 eotw womep av ei
d€oud prov Kpiowve T® ‘Ipepaiw Spopet dxpdlovre
emeo0ar, 7) TOV Sodryodpduicov Tw 7 TOV TLepo-
Spopeny duabeiy Te Kal émeoBat, elroy av got
ore mod cob paAdov éya epavrod déouan Ogovar
rovTois aKodovbeiv, aAd’ od yap Sdvapa, adr’
el te S€e Oedcacba ev TH adT@ ewe Te Kal
Kpicwva Oéovras, rodrov Séov ovyxabeivas: éyd

1 See 329 B, note.
2 Cf. Pheidippides in Herodotus, vi. 105.

174

PROTAGORAS

assert—are able to hold a discussion in the form of
either long or short speeches; you are a man of
knowledge: but I have no ability for these long
speeches, though I could wish that I had it. Surely
you, who are proficient in both ways, ought to have
made us this concession, that so we might have had
ourdebate. But now that you refuse, and I am some-
what pressed for time and could not stay to hear you
expatiate at any length—for I have an appointment—
I will be off; though I daresay I should be happy
enough to hear your views.
With these words I rose as if to go away ; but, as
I was getting up, Callias laid hold of my arm with
his right hand, and grasped this cloak of mine with
his left, and said: We will not let you go, Socrates ;
for if you leave us our discussions will not go so well.
I beg you therefore to stay with us, for there is
nothing I would rather hear than an argument
between you and Protagoras. Come, you must
oblige us all.
en I said (I was now standing up as though to
go out): Son of Hipponicus, I always admire your
love of knowledge, but especially do I commend
and love it now, so that I should be very glad to
oblige you if you asked of me something that I
could do: but I am afraid it is as though you asked
me to keep pace with Criso the runner of Himera
in his prime, or to keep up in a match with one
of the long-distance1 or day-course? racers, and J
could only tell you that I wish that of myself, without
your asking, I could keep pace with such runners,
but of course I cannot. If you want to have the
spectacle of Criso and me running together, you
must ask him to adapt his pace; for whereas I

175

PLATO

pev yap od St¥vayar Tayd Deiv, odros Sé Stvarat
Bpadéws. ei odv emupets euod Kai Ipwr-
ayopov adKovew, TovTov déov, wWomep TO T7mpPa@TOv
pot azmexpivaro 8a Bpaxyéwy te Kat adra Ta
EpuTupieva, ovr kal vov _amoxpiveoBat- ei be
LY, Tis é Tpomos €oTau tay Siaddyeor ; xwpis
yap éywy @uny elvar TO guveivai te aAAjAois
SuaAeyouevous Kal To Synunyopetv. AA’ dpas,
eon, a) LesKpares* dixaa Soxe? A€yew IIpwr-
ayopas dgvav abre TE eSeivar SiardgyeoPat dmws
BovAerau Kal ov omws dv ad od BovAn.

‘YroAaBav obv 6 *AAKkiBiddns, Os xads
Aéyets, eon, ® KaAXia- Leoxparns peev yap ode
oporoyet pt) petetvai of paxpodoyias Kat mapa
Xwpel [pwraydpa, Too Oe dvaréyeobas oles 7°
elvar Kal énioracbat Adyov Te Sodvat Kal deEaaban
Bavpdloys’ ay €t Tw avOpdirwv mapaywpel. et
pev ody kat TIpwraydpas duodoyet pavAdrepos
elvae Lwxpdrous drarexO var, eLapret Zwxparer-
el dé dyrumovetran, Siareyeobw epwtav TE Kal
droKxpwvop.evos, pA) eg’ éxdorn, epurijoer poarpov
Asyov amoteivwy, eKKpovwv Tovs Adyous Kat
ovK eBddww diddvae Adyov, aN’ dmropnkdveny
ews av emAdBwvrat mept drov TO epwTnua iv
of moot TOV dcovdvTeov: ezrel Zexparn ye
eye eyyvOpar p47) emAnoectar, ovx. ort mailer
Kat gnow emAnopev elvar. €or pev, obv doKet
emetkeoTepa Loxpdrns déyew* xpr yap exaoTov

v €avTod yrapny dnopaiverbar. pera be TOV
*AAKiBiddnpv, as ey@pat, Kpitias iy 6 eimwy:
70 IIpdduce Kat ‘Immia, KaAdias pev Soxet por
pdda mpos Ipwraydpov elvar, *AAKiPiddns 8é
176

PROTAGORAS

cannot run fast, he can run slowly. So if you desire
to hear Protagoras and me, ask him to resume the
method of answering which he used at first—in

short sentences and keeping to the point raised.

Otherwise what is to be our mode of discussion ?
For I thought that to hold a joint discussion and to
make a harangue were two distinct things. :

Ah, but you see, Socrates, he said, Protagoras
thinks it only fair to claim that he be allowed to
discuss in his chosen style, in return for your claim
that it should be in yours.

At this Alcibiades intervened, saying: You
do not state it quite philosophically, Callias,1 for
Socrates here confesses he is no hand at long dis-
courses, and yields therein to Protagoras; but I
should be surprised if he yields to any man in ability

| to argue, or in understanding the interchange of
_ reason. Now if Protagoras confesses himself inferior

to Socrates in argumentation, Socrates has no more

_ to ask: but if he challenges him, let him discuss by

question and answer; not spinning out a lecture
on each question—beating off the arguments, re-
fusing to give a reason, and so dilating until most
of his hearers have forgotten the point at issue.
For Socrates, I warrant you, will not forget, despite
his jesting way of calling himself forgetful. Now
I think Socrates’ proposal is the more equitable —
for each of us should declare his personal opinion.
After Alcibiades, the next, I believe, to speak
was Critias : Prodicus and Hippias, he said, it seems
to me that Callias is all for supporting Protagoras,
while Alcibiades is always for a contest in anything

1 The translation attempts to follow the jingle of cahas ...
adAla,

177

PLATO

E det diddovikds eott mpos 6 dy opunon* Huds be
ovdev det oupdirovucety ovTe LwKparer oure
IIpwraydpa, adda Koh} apepoTépwv Seiobau [7)

337 perago diahdoar tiv Evvovolav: eimdvtos Se
avtoo Tada, O ITpdducos, Kadds por, éfn, Soxeis
Aéyew, & Kopuitia: xp7) yap Tovs €v Tovoiade
Adyous TapayuyvojLevous Kowovs peev <ivau dyupotv
Tow Stare yopevow dxpoards, t ioous 5é py. €oTe
yap ov Tavrov" Kowh} pev yap axodoa det duo -
Tépwv, py) tcov Oe veto éxatépw, aAAa TO pev
copuTepy méov, TO dé apualeorépw éharrov.
eyo) pev Kal avros, @ Ipwrayopa Te Kab Les-
Kpares, a&ia@ dyads ovyxwpely Kal dAA7Aous qept

B t&v Adywv dyupioByretv pev, epilew be pn? dupe
oBynroto. wev yap Kal dv evvovay ot piror Tots
pidas, epiLovar de ot _Sudgopot Te Kal ex9pot
aAArAots. Kal ovTws av Kkaddtorn Hpiv % ovv-
ovata ytyvouro: pets Te yap ot Aé€yovtes pddior”
av ovTws év piv Tots aKovovow eVdoxipotre
kal ovK eézratvotobe: evdoxysetv peev yap core
mapa Tais puxats Tv akovovTwy avev andrns,
errawveta0au be ev Ady moMAd.ces mapa Sddo€av

C pevdomeveny jets T ad ot dkovovTes pddvor”
av ovTws edppawoyieba, ovx 7SoipeDa edppat-
veoOa pev yap €ore pavOavovrd TL Kal Ppovncews
petahapBavovra avTh TH Svavoia, 7poeoOae dé
eobiovra. Tt 7 dAAo 700 mdaxovra. avT® TH COPLATL.

Tatra ovv eindvtos Tob TIpo8éxou moot
mévy Tov TapdvTwy amedé€avTo: pera dé TOV
II pdSixov ‘Inmias 6 codds eimrev, *Q avdpes, épn,

1 Prodicus was specially expert in nice verbal distinctions.

178

PROTAGORAS

he takes up. It is not for us to contend on either
side for Socrates or for Protagoras, but jointly to
request them both not to break off our conference
unconcluded.

When he had said this, Prodicus! remarked: I
think you are right, Critias: those who attend this
sort of discussion ought to be joint, but not equal,
hearers of both disputants. For there is a difference :
we should listen jointly to them both, yet not give
equal heed to each, but more to the wiser and less
to the less intelligent. Ion my part also, Protagoras
and Socrates, call upon you to accede to our request,
and to dispute, but not wrangle, with each other
over your arguments: for friends dispute with
friends, just from good feeling ; whereas wrangling
is between those.who are at variance and enmity
with one another. In this way our meeting will
have highest- success, since you the speakers will
thus earn the greatest measure of good repute,
not praise, from us who hear you. For good repute
is present in the hearers’ souls without deception,
but praise is too often in the words of liars who
hide what they really think. Again, we listeners
would thus be most comforted, not pleased; for
he is comforted who learns something and gets a
share of good sense in his mind alone, whereas he
is pleased who eats something or has some other
pleasant sensation only in his body.

When Prodicus had thus spoken, quite a number
of the company showed their approval: then after
Prodicus the learned Hippias? spoke: Gentlemen,

2 Hippias professed to teach a great variety of subjects.

His frequent metaphors were evidently designed to display
his wide range of knowledge.

179

PLATO

e / ¢ i i: A ¢ «4 : a
of mapovTes, ayotuar éya duds ovyyeveis Te
Kal oikelous Kat moAitas dmavtas elvar ducer,
od vouw TO yap Spotov TH opoiw dvoe ovy-
yevés eat, 6 5€é vouos, TUpavvos wy Ta avOpa-
mov, ToAAa rapa thy dtow Bidlera. Huds
obv aicxypov tiv pev dvow Tav mpayyatwv €idévat,

~ >
codwrarous 8€ dvtas tav ‘ENyvwv, Kat Kar
Sif ~ ~ , ~ c /
adto Totro viv ovveAnAvOdtas tis te “EAAddos
eis abtO TO mpuTaveiov THs codias Kat adrijs
Tis moAews eis Tov péyvoTov Kal dABudTaTov
> 7 A 4 ~ > LA Ld
otkov rovde, pndev TovTov Tob a€wdparos afvov
> / > > LA A / ~
aropjvacba, ad’ domep tods pavdotdtous THY
> 4 / > , >? \ \ -
avOpimwv dvadépecBar addAjAou. eyo pev ody
Kal Séowar Kal aupBovredw, & Ilpwraydpa te
Kat LwKpares, ovpPivar buds womep bro Sduat-

~ « ~ , > \ / vA
-rntav jpav ovpPiBaldvrwy eis TO pécov, Kat

338

A ‘ >

/ A ~ ~ /
pre a€ TO axpiBes Todro «ldos ta&v Sdiaddywr
tnreiv To Kara Bpaxd Atay, <i pr) 750 Ipwraydpa,
GAN édeivar Kail yaAdoa Tas jvias Tots Adyots,
iva peyadomperéatepor Kal evoxnpoveotepor Huiv

/
daivwrra, pyr ad Ilpwraydpay mdvra Kddwy
/ >
exrelvavta, ovpia éedevta, pevyew eis TO TéAayos
Tov Adywv, amoxptyavta yhv, aAdAa péoov Tt
a ,
dpdorépous Tewetv. Ws ov ToUnoETE, Kal Zel-
Becbé wor paPdodyov Kat emorarny Kat mpvravw
a ~ “A
éX€cOa, ds duty dvdd&e To pétpiov pyKos TH
Adywv éExatépov.

Taira ipece tots mapodo., Kal mdvtes e€n-
jveoav, kal eué te 6 KaddXlas odk edn adijoew

\ Cv. 29 7 > , > > ‘
Kal €AdaBar ed€ovTo emotdrnv. elmov obv eyd
a > A ” \ ey 7 ~ ,

Stu aicypov ein BpaBevrny <Adoba trav Adywr.

~ > Sat
elre yap xelpwv Cora jpdv 6 alpebeis, od dpbds
180

PROTAGORAS

he said, who are here present, I regard you all as
kinsmen and intimates and fellow-citizens by nature,

_ not by law: for like is akin to like by nature, whereas

law, despot of mankind, often constrains us against
nature. Hence it would be shameful if we, while
knowing the nature of things, should yet—being the
wisest of the Greeks, and having met together for
the very purpose in the very sanctuary of the wisdom
of Greece, and in this the greatest and most aus-
picious house of the city of cities—display no worthy
sign of this dignity, but should quarrel with each
other like low churls. Now let me beg and advise
you, Protagoras and Socrates, to come to terms
arranged, as it were, under our arbitration: you,
Socrates, must not require that precise form of
discussion with its extreme brevity, if it is disagree-
able to Protagoras, but let the speeches have their
head with a loose rein, that they may give us a more
splendid and elegant impression; nor must you,
Protagoras, let out full sail, as you run before the
breeze, and so escape into the ocean of speech
leaving the land nowhere in sight ; rather, both of
you must take a middle course. So you shall do as
I say, and I strongly urge you to choose an umpire
or supervisor or chairman who will keep watch for
you over the due measure of either’s speeches.

His proposal was approved by the company, and
they all applauded it: Callias said he would not
let me go, and they requested me to choose a super-
visor. To this I replied that it would be a shame
to choose an arbiter for our discussion; for if he
who is chosen, said I, is to be our inferior, it would

VOL. IV G2 181

339

PLATO

bal ” A ~ a
dv éyou Tov yxeipw tadv BedAtiovwv emorarety,
a > ~
elre dpotos, odd otTws dpbds: 6 yap spoLos
| Ta. ¢ ~
Hiv duo Kat mounoer, Wore eK TepiTTOD Hpy-
> \ \ / e lan) | fea ~
aetat. GAAd 51) BeATiova Hudv aipjoeccbe. TH
\ > ’ a
pev aAnbeia, ws ey@uar, advvatov duly wore
~ 3
IIpwraydpov rodde codudrepov twa édécba «i
S€ aipjocobe pe de Ari ) dé, al
€ aipnocobe pev pndev BeAtiw, dryoere Sé, at-
‘ na ~ ,
oxpov Kal rodro TMde ylyvera, wWonep favtAw
> , > a > ‘
avOpirw emorarny aipetobar, éemel TO y’ Eov
3 , / > > e \ 2127 ~
ovdev por Siadéper. add’ odtwot ebéAw Troiijoat,
vqoul[UM al 7 ‘ 7 eS
iv’ 6 mpoOvpetobe cvvovcia te Kal didAoyou juiv
/ >
yiyvwrra ef yr) BovrAerar Ipwraydpas amoxpi-
veoBat, odTos ev epwrdrw, ey dé amoxpwodpa.,
‘ A a e Ff
Kal dua meipdcowa adr@ Seifar, ws eyo dye
~ > \
Xpivar Tov amoKpwopevov aroKpivecba- emedav
/ .
Sé eyd) dmoKxpivwpat dmd0° av odros BovAntat
~ / ¢ /
epwrdv, maAw odros euol Adyov drocxeTW Opmoiws.
as ‘ \ A
éav odv pi Sox mpdbvpos elvar mpos adro TO
\ ¢ a
ێpwrdpevov amoxpiveoOar, Kal eyo Kal vets
ond ~ aA > “~ ‘
Kowh Senodpcba adrob dmep tpuets Eemod, pr
a 4
Suadbeipew tiv ovvovaiav: Kal oddev det TovToOV
/ ~
évexa eva éemordarny yevéobat, dAda mavtTes Kowh
~ ,
ETLOTATHOETE, €OOKEL TAOW OVTW TrOLNTEOV elvat*
* a
Kat 6 IIpwraydpas wavy pev ovK HOeAev, Ouws
lod \ > A
Sé FwayKdobn suodoyfoa epwrncew, Kal emeday
~ / A
ixavOs épwrnon, maAw SHcew Adyov Kara opu-
KpoVv a7roKpwopevos.
"H S > = ¢ , : ‘H a
pfato obv épwrdv ottwoi mws yoomat,
/ /
én, & UdKpares, eyd avdpl madelas peyrorov
~ w \ lo
pépos elvar rept emdv Sewodv elvar: Eorr de Tobro

182

PROTAGORAS

not be right to have the inferior overseeing the
superior ; while if he is our equal, that will be just
as wrong, for our equal will only do very much as
we do, and it will be superfluous to choose him.
You may say you will choose one who is our superior.
This, in very truth, I hold to be impossible—to choose
someone who is wiser than our friend Protagoras ;
and if you choose one who is not his superior, though
you may say he is, that again would cast a slur
on him, as if he were some paltry fellow requiring
a supervisor; for, as far as I am concerned, the
matter is indifferent. But let me tell you how I
would have the thing done, so that your eagerness
for a conference and a discussion may be satisfied.
If Protagoras does not wish to answer, let him ask
questions, and I will answer: at the same time
I will try to show him how the answerer, in my
view, ought to answer; and when I have answered
all the questions that he wishes to ask, in his turn
he shall render account in like manner to me. So
if he does not seem very ready to answer the
particular question put to him, you and I will join
in beseeching him, as you have besought me, not
to upset our conference. And for this plan there is
no need to have one man as supervisor; you will all
supervise it together.

They all resolved that it should be done in this
way: Protagoras, though very unwilling, was
obliged after all to agree to ask questions and then,
when he had asked a sufficient number, to take his
turn at making due response in short answers.

And so he began to put questions in this sort of
way: I consider, Socrates, that the greatest part of
a man’s education is to be skilled in the matter of —~~

183

PLATO

‘ e A ~ ~ / / >
Ta U0 THY TonTaV Aeyopueva oldv 7° elvar ouv-
tévae & TE OpOGs memoinrar Kal & pH, Kal éni-
oraobar SueAciv te Kai epwrwdpevov Adyov Sobvar.
Kal 81) Kal viv €ora TO epwTnpwa tept ToD abrob
bev, Tept odmep eyed Te Kal od viv Siadeyoucba,
mept dperis, petevyveypevov Se eis oinow:
TocovTov povov Swice. Aéeyer yap mov Lyww-
LA ‘ , A , e\ ~
vidns mpos UKdmav, tov Kpéovros viov tod Oer-
TaAod, OTe

avdp ayabov pev ddrabéws yevéobar yaderov,
xepol Te Kal Tool Kal vow TETpaywvov, avev
yoyou TeTUyLEVOV.

~ Mek 4 ‘ ma bal ~ /
TodTo émiotacat TO dopa, H mav oor SieEédOw;
S79 ‘ hd 2O\ a y Pehl , 4
Kat éya elmov ott Oddev Set emiorapai re yap,
Kal mavu por Tvyxdver peeAnKos TOO aopaTos.
Ed, edn, Aéyers. amdtepov odv Kad@s cor Soxet
~ \ > ~ nn ” 4 ” > A
merrornobar Kai opbds, 7 ov; Ilavu, edny eyad,
<KaA@s>! re Kat dp0ds. Aoxet 5€ cor Kadds
memroinoba, et evavtia Ayer adros abT@ 6 mown-
7, ° ~ > > cA 4 / Ad
ms; Od Kadds, jv 8 eyd. “Opa 8H, &dn,
BéArwov. 7AM’, & ‘yale, Eoxeppar ixavds. Oi-
> ” o S08 a ,
aba obv, fn, Ste mpoidvtos Tod aoparos Ayer
7rov"

/
obd€ pot epeAews To [lirrdxecov vépwera,

Kaito. codod mapa dwros elpnuevov: yaderov dar’
eoOAov Eupevar.

; ~ a e 3 4 = ‘ / ‘ > a“
évvoeis Ott 6 avTos odTOS Kai Tdde A€yer KaKeiva
1 xadds add. Bekker.

184

PROTAGORAS

verses; that is, to be able to apprehend, in the
utterances of the poets, what has been rightly and
what wrongly composed, and to know how to dis-
tinguish them and account for them when questioned.
Accordingly my question now will be on the same
subject that you and I are now debating, namely
virtue, but taken in connexion with poetry: that
will be the only difference. Now, Simonides, I
think, somewhere remarks to Scopas, the son of
Creon of Thessaly—
For a man, indeed, to become good truly is hard,
In hands and feet and mind foursquare,
Fashioned without reproach.
Do you know the ode, or shall I recite the whole ?
To this I replied : There is no need, for I know it ;
it happens that I have especially studied that ode.
I am glad to hear it, he said. Now do you regard
it as finely and correctly composed or not ?
Very finely and correctly, I replied.
And do you regard it as finely composed, if the
poet contradicts himself ?
No, I replied.
Then observe it more closely, he said.
My good sir, I have given it ample attention. -
Are you aware, then, he asked, that as the ode
proceeds he says at one point—
Nor ringeth true to me
A oS esl
nD a whos =
Hard. quoth an tare good.
Do you note that this and the former are statements
of the same person ?
1 Pittacus, ruler of Mytilene, despaired of ruling well on
the ground here stated. ee sive i

185

340

PLATO

A ” al
Ta eumpoobev; Olda, fw 8 eyd. Aoxet odv
got, eon, Tatra exetvous Sporoyetabar ; Pat-
veTau Emovye (xa Gye perro. epoBovuny py
Tt A€yor). atdp, ednv eyw, aol ov paiverar;
Ilds yap av daivoito opodoyeiv adtos éavT@ 6
Tatra auddtepa Adywv, 6s ye TO pev mp@Tov

> \ ec / \ > a” > ‘ /
abros vmélero xaderov elvar avdpa ayabov yeve-

> , 3\/7 A ~ la > ‘
afar ddAnfeia, oAiyov 5€ tod moujparos eis TO

/ \ > / A A ‘
mpdoabev mpoeADav emeAdBero, Kat Ilirraxov tov

> A /, ¢ ~ iid A > ‘ ”
tavTa A€yovra e€avT@, Gt. xaderov éeabAdv Ep-
flevat, ToUTov peudeTal Te Kal ov dnow amTo-
déxec0an adrod Ta adra éavT® A€yovros. KaiTor
omote Tov Tatra Aéyovta abr péeuderar, diAov
OTL Kau E€avTov péudeTat, WoTE TTOL TO TpPOTEpoV
} vorepov odie opbas Aéyer.

Eiresy oov tabra moots AcpuBov Tapéoxe
Kal emrawvov Tav dcovdvTev: Kal ey@ TO pev
mp@tov, womepel bro ayalod amxrov mAnyeis,
eoxoTwOnv tre Kat idvyyiaca eimdvtos adrod

~ A ~ wv > / ”
Tatra Kal tav adAAwy emifopuBnoavTwr: Eretra,
Ws ye mpos o€ eipfoba tadnOA, va por xpdvos
eyyernta. TH oKeper ti A€yor 6 ToUNTHs, TpE-
mouat mpos Tov IIpdducov, Kai Kadécas adrov,
> /, ” > 4 \ , ye iS

Q. IIpdduce, epnv eyo, cos pévtor Luywvidns
moXitns: Sixatos ef Bonbety 7H avdpi. Sox
obv. wou éyd) mapaxadrciv o€, wamep epn “Opnpos
Tov Lkdpavdpov moAopKovpevoy bd Tod *AyA-
Adws Tov Liydervta mapakadeiv, eimovra*

La , / > / > / ,
pire Kaciyvnte, abévos avépos auddorepot rep
oXOLEV.

——

1 Iliad xxi. 308 foll.
186

PROTAGORAS

I know that, I said.

Then do you think the second agrees with the
first ?

So far as I can see, it does, I replied (at the same
time, though, I was afraid there was something in -
what he said). Why, I asked, does it not seem so

to Sai ?

ow can anyone, he replied, be thought con-
sistent, who says both of these things? First he
laid it down himself that it is hard for a man to
become good in truth, and then a little further on
in his poem he forgot, and he proceeds to blame
Pittacus for saying the same as he did—that it is
hard to be good, and refuses to accept from him
the same statement that he made himself. Yet,
as often as he blames the man for saying the same
as himself he obviously blames himself too, so that in
either the former or the latter place his statement
is wrong.

This speech of his won a clamorous approval
from many of his hearers ; and at first I felt as though
I had been struck by a skilful boxer, and was quite
blind and dizzy with the effect of his words and the
noise of their applause. Then—to tell you the
honest truth—in order to gain time for considering
the poet’s meaning, I turned to Prodicus and
calling him—Prodicus, I said, surely Simonides was
your townsman: it behoves you to come to the
man’s rescue. Accordingly I allow myself to call
for your assistance—just as Scamander, in Homer,
when besieged by Achilles, called Simois to his aid,

saying—
Dear brother, let us both together stay this warrior’s might.
187

PLATO: :*-->

> A ‘ > \ A ~ A TY et oe tae
arap Kat éy® oé tapaxadAd, wn juiv 6 Ipwr-
ayopas Tov Luyswvidnv exrépon. Kal yap odv
Kat dSetrac TO drep Lyswvidov emavopbwua ris
ons povoikys, TO Te BovAccOar Kai émiOuvpev
Siatpeis ws ov TravTov ov, Kat a viv 81 etzes
moAAd te Kat KaAd. Kal viv oxKomet, et cor
ouvdokel Omep euol. ov yap daiverar evavria
Aéyew adros ait Lyswwvidns. ad ydp, & IIpd-
/ A A
duce, mpoarddynva. tHv anv yvapunv: Tadrov
7 ¢ ‘ / A ‘ a

cot Soke? elvar To yevéoBar Kat 7d elvat, 7 GAdo;
"Ado vn At’, éfn 6 IIpddcxos. Odxodv, edyy
eyed, ev pev Tois mpwrots adros 6 Liypwridns TH
éavtod yvwpnv amedyvato, ote dvdpa ayabov
aAnbeia yevécBar xaderov ein; "AdnOAR dAédyes,
” ¢ , ah \ 5 / II / >
édn 6 IIpddixos. ov d€ ye Ilirraxdv, fv 8
ey, peudera, ody ws oterat Ipwraydpas,

> A ¢ ~ / > > ~ > \
tadtov é€avT@ A€yovra, aA’ dAdo. od yap
totro 6 Ilirraxos eAeye TO yxaderdv, yevécba
> 4 4 ¢ / > A A ”
ecOAdv, wWomep 6 Lywridns, adAa TO Eupevac-
” A > 3 , > / @ /,
€ott d€ od Tatvrov, & IIpwraydpa, ws dyor IIpd-
Suxos dd€, TO elvar Kal TO yeveoBar- ef Sé x7)
TO avTd €oTt TO clvar TH yevéobar, ovdK evayTia
déyer 6 Liywvidns adros abr. Kal iows av
dain IIpddiucos o5€ Kai ddAot moAAoi, Kal” ‘Haio-
dov, yevéeobar pev ayalov xaderov civar- Tis
yap apeThs eumpoobev tods Beodvs idpara Oetvar:
a / 7 ek > »” @ € wQ/ ”
orav O€ Tis adTis eis akpov ixnrat, pyidinv dy-
meta méAew, yaAerynv ep eotcav, extiata.

¢€ A Ss I 5) > 4 ~ > la /,

O pev obv IIpdduxos axotoas tatra émjvecd
pe: 0 b€ IIpwraydpas, To éravdpIwud aot,
wv > , a ¢ / wv ” a
é¢n, @® LwdKpates, petlov audprnua exer 7 O

188

PROTAGORAS

In the same way I call upon you, lest Protagoras
lay Simonides in ruins. For indeed to rehabilitate
Simonides requires your artistry, by which you can
discriminate between wishing and desiring as two
distinct things in the fine and ample manner of
your statement just now. So please consider if
you agree with my view. For it is not clear that
Simonides does contradict himself. Now you, Pro-
dicus, shall declare your verdict first : do you consider
becoming and being to be the same or different ?

Different, to be sure, said Prodicus.

Now in the first passage, I said, Simonides gave
it as his own opinion that it is hard for a man to
become good in truth.

Quite true, said Prodicus.

And he blames Pittacus, I went on, for saying
not, as Protagoras holds, the same as himself, but
something different. For what Pittacus said was
not, as Simonides said, that it is hard ‘to become”
but “to be” good. Now being and becoming,
Protagoras, as our friend Prodicus says, are not the
same thing ;- and if being and becoming are not
the same thing, Simonides does not contradict
himself. Perhaps Prodicus and many others might
say with Hesiod that to become good is hard, “ for
Heaven hath set hard travail on the way to virtue;
and when one reacheth the summit thereof, ’tis an
easy thing to possess, though hard before.” +

When Prodicus heard this he gave me his approval :
but Protagoras observed : Your correction, Socrates,
contains an error greater than that which you are
correcting.

1 A not quite exact quotation of Hesiod, Works and Days,
289 foll.

189

341

PLATO

> a

eravopOois. Kai éya elmov, Kaxov dpa pou
ww

elpyaorat, ws eouev, ® II pwraydpa, Kal eit

a > a
tis yedotos iarpds: idpevos petlov To voonpa
~ AN. 4 ww ” Tl ~ 8 / F
TOL. ovTws exer, ed. Os 84; Hv
8° tga 4 II AAT ” 5g > A. ” ~ ~
eyo. oAAy av, €fn, auabla etn Tob troinTod,

> 4 A a

et ovtw dadAdv ti dnow clvar Thy apeTiy €eKTH-

Ld
cba, 6 éort mdvrwy xaderwrarov, ws dace
A >

Soke? avOpwois. Kal eyw elrov, Ni tov Aia,
> / ~ a

els Katpdv ye traparettynkev Hiv ev rots Adyots

/
IIpdduxos ode. Kwduvevter ydp to, & Ipwr-
/

aydpa, 7 IIpodicov codia Bela tis elvar mdAa,
”

HTot ao Liwvidov apEauevyn, 7) Kal ére tradavo-
/ A A »” ~ ” n“ 7,
Tépa. ov de adAdAwy ToAAdv Eutre—pos wv TavTNS
ameupos elvar daiver, ody womep eyd Epmeipos
dia TO puabytns elvac Ipodikov tovrovi> Kal
vov pow Soxeis od pavOdvew, ott Kal TO yaderov
Tobto tows ody ovTw Xiyuwvidns streAduBaver,
¢ \ ¢ 4 > > A ‘ lol
worep avd trroAapPdvers, GAN’ worep epi Tob
Sewod IIpdducds pe odroot vovlere? Eéxdorore,
7 > ~ > A “” \ x” ” A td i
otav erawav eyw 7) o€ 7 GAAov Twa A€yw ort
IIpwraydpas aodos Kal Sewds eorw avyp, pwd
ei ovK aicx¥voua. tayaba Sewa Kadrdv. Td
\ 8 / / / > 55 A ~ PY ,
yap Sewdv, dnoi, kaxdv éeoTw: ovdeis yotv A€yer
éxdotore Sewod mdovrov oddé Sewis <«ipyvyns
3O 4 ~ € , > A a , ‘ lol
ovd€ Sewis vyvelas, GA\Ad Sewis vdcov Kal dewod
mod€uov Kat Sewhs mevias, ws Tod Sewod Kaxod
évros. laws odv Kal ro yaXerov ad of Ketor
‘ ¢ / ”“ ‘ ec rv / “
Kal 6 Lyswvidns 7 Kaxov dbrodauBavovow 7
GAXo te 6 od od pavOdveis: epwycba odv IIpd-
Suxov: Sixaov yap tiv Lipwridov dwviy todrov

190

PROTAGORAS

To which I answered: then it is a bad piece of
work I have done, it would seem, Protagoras, and I
am an absurd sort of physician; my treatment
increases the malady.

Just so, he said.

How is that ? I asked.

Great, he replied, would be the ignorance of the
poet, if he calls it such a slight matter to possess
virtue, which is the hardest thing in the world, as
all men agree.

Then I remarked: Upon my word, how oppor-
tunely it has happened that Prodicus is here to join
in our discussion! For it is very likely, Protagoras,
that Prodicus’ wisdom is a gift of long ago from
heaven, beginning either in the time of Simonides
or even earlier. But you, so skilled in many other
things, appear to be unskilled in this, and lack the
skill that I can boast because I am a disciple of the
great Prodicus ; and so now I find you do not under-
stand that perhaps Simonides did not conceive
“hard” in the way that you conceive it —just
as, in the case of “ awful,” Prodicus here corrects
me each time I use the word in praising you or
someone else; when I say, for instance, that
Protagoras is an awfully wise man, he asks if I am
not ashamed to call good things awful. For awful,
he says, is bad ; thus no one on this or that occasion
speaks of “ awful wealth” or “ awful peace” or
“awful health,” but we say “awful disease,”
“ awful war” or “ awful poverty,” taking “ awful ”
to be “ bad.”” So perhaps “ hard ” also was intended
by the Ceans and Simonides as either “ bad” or
something else that you do not understand : let us
therefore ask Prodicus, for it is fair to question him

191

PLATO

C epwrav- ti EXeyev, & IIpdduxe, ro _xaAemov 2e-

342

7 / ”
pavidns; Kaxdv, édn. Ara tadr dpa Kal
/ s > > / -
peudera, Hv 8 éeyw, & Ipdduce, tov Iurraxov
Aéyovra yxaXerov eobAdv eupevar, wWoTrep av et
jkovey avtTod Aéyovtos Ott éoTlt Kakov éabddv
eupevat. “Aa Ti ole, Edn, A€yew, D Usd-
, ” a” ~ ‘ > ,
Kpates, Luyuwvidnv ddAo 7 Tobto, Kal ovedilew
t® Ilirrak@, ote Ta ovdopara ovK Amiorato
b] ~ aA g / n ‘ a
opbds Siaipetv are AéoBwos @v Kal ev puri}
BapBapep TeOpappevos; “Axovers 84, ednv ey,
® Ilpwraydpa, ITpodixou TovoE. EXELS TL TmpOS
ratdra Adyew; Kail 6 IIpwraydpas, IloAAod ye
Se7, Edy, odrws Exew, D Ipdduces GA eyw €b
> @ \ / ‘ A »” og

ol8 dre Kal Lupevidys TO xaAerov eheyev Omrep
Heets of GAAoL, od TO KaKov, GAN’ 6 av py pddvov
9, ada, Sua. 7oAABY mpayndroy yiyvyrac. "Ada
Kat éyw olwa, edynv, & IIpwraydpa, todro Aéyew
Luywvidnv, cat IIpdducdv ye rdévde cidévar, adda
mailew Kal aod Soxety amomepacba, ei olds 7
»” ~ lon , a > \ TP

€oet TH cavTod Adyw Bonbeivr eel Ste ye L-
pewvidns od A€yes TO xaAderov KaKdv, péeya Te-
Kunjpiov eotw ev0ds TO peTa TodTo phua> A€ye
yap Ort

Beds av dvos tobr’ Exou yépas.

od Sijrov TOUTS ye Aéye, KaKOV ea8)ov eupeva,
elta Tov Beov gyoe povov Tobro dy €xew Kal TO
be@ TooTO ‘yépas daréveupe pov" dcoAaorov yap
av twa Aéyou Lywwvidnv 6 Ipoddixos Kai oddayds
Keiov. dAd’ a poe Soxet dtavoetofar Lyswvidns
év ToUTw TH Gopuart, eOéAw cow eizeiv, «¢ Bovdet
AaBeiv pou meipay Srws exw, 6 od A€yets TobTo,
192

PROTAGORAS

on the dialect of Simonides. What did Simonides
mean, Prodicus, by “ hard ”’?

“ Bad,” he replied.

Then it is on this account, Prodicus, I said, that he
blames Pittacus for saying it is hard to be good,
just as though he heard him say it is bad to be good.

Well, Socrates, he said, what else do you think
Simonides meant? Was he not reproaching Pittacus
for not knowing how to distinguish words correctly,
Lesbian as he was, and nurtured in a foreign tongue ?

You hear, Protagoras, I said, what Prodicus here
suggests :, have you anything to say upon it ?

The case, said Protagoras, is far otherwise,
Prodicus : I am quite sure that Simonides meant by
“hard ” the same as we generally do—not “ bad,”
but whatever is not easy and involves a great
amount of trouble.

Ah, I agree with you, Protagoras, I said, that
this is Simonides’ meaning, and that our friend
Prodicus knows it, but is joking and chooses to
experiment on you to see if you will be able to
support your own statement. For that Simonides
does not mean that “hard” is “ bad” we have
clear proof forthwith in the next phrase, where he
says—

God alone can have this privilege.
Surely he cannot mean that it is bad to be good,
if he proceeds here to say that God alone can have
this thing, and attributes this privilege to God only :
otherwise Prodicus would call Simonides a rake, and
no true Cean. But I should like to tell you what I
take to be Simonides’ intention in this ode, if you
care to test my powers, as you put it,! in the matter
1 Cf. 339 a above.
193

PLATO

mrepl éer@v eav dé BovAn, ood dxovcopar. 6 pev
obv II pwraydpas dxovoas jrov Tabra. AéyovrTos,
Ei ov Bower, edn, @ UesKpares 6 be Il pddinds
Te Kal o ‘Inzias exeAcverny mae, Kat of dAXov.
"Eye Toivur, Vv s eye, a ye pou Soke? mept
Tod dopatos Tourou, TeipdoopaL viv SueLeAciv.
purocogia yap éort maAavorarn Te Kat mAe«i
Tav “EAAjvev ev Kpjrn te Kal ev Aaxedaipon,
Kat ooguoral mAcioro. ys exe? eloiv: add’ ef
apvodvrat Kal oxnuatilovrar apuabeis elvar, wa
A / > Ld / ~
pq) KaTadnAou dow ore sofia Tav EM jer
mMepletow, Wwomrep ovs [pwrayépas deve TOUS
oogotds, add. dox@at 7@ payecBar Kal dv8peta
meptetva, Hyovpevor, ei “yooabetev 3) mepletot,
mdvras totro doxioew, rv codiav. viv 8é
amoxpuypdpevor exetvo eEnmariKac. Tovs ev tats
moAeot Aaxwvilovras, Kat of pwev WTA TE KaT-
dyvuvTat piovpevor adrovs, Kal tudvras mepi-
etAirrovrat Kal diloyupvactober Kat Bpayeias ava-
Bodds dopotow, ws 57 TovTois Kpatobtytas Tay
“EAAjvwv tods Aaxedaymoviouvs: of Sé€ Aake-
7 s juovious
Sayudvio. éemedav BovAwvrar avédnv Tois map
adtois ovyyevécba coduorais, Kat 4On axOwvrae
AdOpa Svyyvyvopevor, fevnhacias ToLvovprevon TMV
TE Aakwvilovrwy ToUrw kat é€av tis aAdos E€vos
av emdn non, ovyytyvovrat Tots ooguarais Aav-
Odvovres Tovs ێvous, Kat adtvrol ovddva ear
Tav véwy eis tas aAAas modes ebtévar, womep

AOS. 316 p. This whole passage is a mocking answer to
Engage oras’s eulogy of sophistry.
Short cloaks or capes worn in a fashion imitated from
the Spartans.

194

PROTAGORAS

of verses ; though if you would rather, I will hear
your account.

When Protagoras heard me say this—As you
please, Socrates, he said; then Prodicus and
Hippias strongly urged me, and the rest of them also.

Well then, I said, I will try to explain to you
my own feeling about this poem. Now philosophy
is of more ancient and abundant growth in Crete and
Lacedaemon than in any other part of Greece,
- and sophists are more numerous in those regions :
but the people there deny it and make pretence
of ignorance, in order to prevent the discovery that
it is by wisdom that they have ascendancy over the
rest of the Greeks, like those sophists of whom
Protagoras was speaking?; they prefer it to be
thought that they owe their superiority to fighting
and valour, conceiving that the revelation of its real
cause would lead everyone to practise this wisdom.
So well have they kept their secret that they have
deceived the followers of the Spartan cult in our
cities, with the result that some get broken ears
by imitating them, bind their knuckles with thongs,

in for muscular exercises, and wear dashing little
cloaks,? as though it were by these means that the
Spartans were the masters of Greece. And when
the Spartans wish to converse unrestrainedly with
their sophists, and begin to chafe at the secrecy
of their meetings, they pass alien acts against the
laconizing set * and any other strangers within their
gates, and have meetings with the sophists unknown
to the foreigners ; while on their part they do not
permit any of their young men to travel abroad

® i.e. people who have come to acquire the Spartan wa
of life, in order to spread it in other cities, ;

195

343

PLATO

ovde Kpires, wa 1) arropavbdvewcw & avrol
ddoxovaw. etal be ev Tavrais tats moXcow
ov jovov avBpes emt madevoeu peya ppovodvres,
aAAd Kat yovaikes. yvoire 5° av, ort ey Taira
adn OA Aeyw Kat Aakedaipoviot pos pirocodgiav
kat Adyovs dpiora memaidevvrat, Ode «i yap
ebérew Tis Aaxedayrovicn TO pavrordry | ovy-
yeveoBar, Ta pev Tpa@Ta ev Tots Adyots cuprcet
avrov pairdov Twa davwdpevor, _emera,, O7rov av
TUXN Tov Acyopevwy, eveBare pha dfvov Adyou
Bpaxd Kat OUVEOT POyLpLevov woTep Sewos axovrt-
aT7s, wore daivecbas tov mpoadiaAeyopevov Tra -
dos pdev BeAdrio. Tobro obv avTo Kal T@v
viv eloly of KaTavevornKact kal T&v mddat, ot
TO Aakwvilew odd HadAov €oTt prrooogeiy
puroyuyvacreiv, eiddtes OTe Tovatra olov T
elvac pyyara pbeyyeoat Tedéws mrerasBevuevov
€otiv avOpsrrov. TOUT hv Kat Oadjs 6 Me-
Arjovos kal Tlerraxos 6 _ MuriAnvatos kat Bias
6 II pinveds Kal LdAwv 6 WueTEpos Kal KAedBovdos
6 Aw6.0s kat Muowv o Xnvevs, Kal EBdopos
ev TovTos eAéyeTo Aaxedarpdvios XiAwv. obroe
mavres CyAwral Kat épactai Kat pabyral ioav
THS Aaxedayrovicw madelas* Kal Karapdbor av
Tis avTav Tv codiav Towadryy obcay, pypara
Bpaxéa af vopynudvevta éxdore etpnpueva., <a>?
obra. Kai Kowh EvveADovtes arapynv THs sodias
avébecav TH "AmdAAwvi eis Tov vedwv Tov ev AedA-
dois, ypaavres tadra, & 8) madvtes dtpvodor,
yabe oavTov al pndev dyav. Tod 81) evexa
Tatra A€yw; drt odTos 6 TPdTOS Hv TAV mroAavév
ths dirocodgias, BpaxvAoyia tis Aaxwrixy Kat 82)
196

PROTAGORAS

to the other cities—in this rule they resemble the
Cretans—lest they unlearn what they are taught at
home. In those two states there are not only men
but women also who pride themselves on their
education; and you can tell that what I say is
true and that the Spartans have the best education
in philosophy and argument by this: if you choose
to consort with the meanest of Spartans, at first
you will find him making a poor show in the conversa-
tion; but soon, at some point or other in the
discussion, he gets home with a notable remark,
short and compressed—a deadly shot that makes
his interlocutor seem like a helpless child. Hence
this very truth has been observed by certain persons
both in our day and in former times—that the |
Spartan cult is much more the pursuit of wisdom
than of athletics; for they know that a man’s
ability to utter such remarks is to be ascribed to
his perfect education. Such men were Thales of
Miletus, Pittacus of Mytilene, Bias of Priene, Solon
of our city, Cleobulus of Lindus, Myson of Chen, and,
last of the traditional seven, Chilon of Sparta. All
these were enthusiasts, lovers and disciples of the
Spartan culture; and you can recognize that char-
acter in their wisdom by the short, memorable
sayings that fell from each of them :-they assembled
together and dedicated these as the first-fruits of
their lore to Apollo in his Delphic temple, inscribing
there those maxims which are on every tongue—
“ Know thyself” and ‘“‘ Nothing overmuch.” To
what intent do I say this? To show how the ancient
philosophy had this style of laconic brevity; and

1 4 add. Hermann.
197

PLATO

‘ ~ ~ / ~
kat Tod IIirraxod idia mepiedépero rotro 76
ta > ~ ~
pha éyxwualduevor bro tTav copdv, TO xaAerov
> ‘ ”
€obAov Eupevar. 6 ody LXiuwvidys, are didd-
4 | ~
TyLos av emi aodia, éyvw St, «¢ KabéAot TobTO
‘ ta Ld A
TO phua worep eddokiysodvTa aOAnTHY Kal Tept-
td ~ ~
yevoito abrov, atros evdoxyijnoe. ev tots Tote
> ~ ~
avOpdous. «is todto obv TO phua Kal Tovrov
Ld 4 ~
evexa TovTw émBovrAcevwv KodAotca a’ro damav
‘ >
TO dopa meToinkev, Ws pou haiverat.
"BE A 0. on Bae ~ Ld 3
moKepayea 8) ato Kowh dmavtes, el
A > > ~ ~
dpa €yw adnO_ rAEyw. edOds yap To mpa&rov
Tob doparos pavurov av davein, et BovAdpevos
” A /
Ad€yew, St. avdpa dyalov yevécbar yxadrerov,
émeita evéBare TO ev. TodTo yap ovde mpds
a , ‘ > ~ A ,
€va Adyov daiverar euBeBARcAu, cay ph Tis
broAdBn mpos ro Tod Ilirraxod phua womep
epilovra Adyew Tov Lipwvidnv: Héyovtos Tod
Ilurraxod ote yaderov eobddv Eupevar, apdi-
~ > ~ Ld ” > A la A
oByrobyvta <imety dtu ovK, GAdAd yevéobar pev
‘ ” > , > > , e
xarerov avipa ayabov éorw, & Ilirraxé, ds
ar 6 ~ > ar if] , > a] , > > 4 uf
nOas, odK adnbeia ayalov, odk emi tovTw
Aéyer thy adAjbevav, ws dpa dvtwy Twav TeV
ev ws GAnbds ayabdv, trav Sé dyabdv per,
ov pévTor adnfas: etnfes yap tobrd ye davely
n ‘ > / > > e A a ~
av Kat od Lyswvidov: adr trepBarov Set Oeivas
ev T® dopatt To dAabéws, ottTwoi mws wtr-
evurovta TO Tob [lirraxob, womep av ei Oetwev
? ‘ / A ‘ ‘ Ud
avrov Aé€yovta tov [lirraxdv Kal Lyrwvidnv
‘
amoKpwopevov, elmdvTa @ avOpwior, yxademov
>
€oOAov eupevar, Tov dé amoKpwopuevov OTL @

1 In this view of the purpose of the poem (which is to
show that there is no lasting perfection in human life), and

198

PROTAGORAS

so it was that the saying of Pittacus was privately
handed about with high approbation among the
sages—that it is hard to be good. Then Simonides,
ambitious to get a name for wisdom, perceived that
if he could overthrow this saying, as one might
some famous athlete, and become its conqueror,
he would win fame himself amongst men of that
day. Accordingly it was against this saying, and
with this aim, that he composed the whole poem
as a means of covertly assailing and abasing this
maxim, as it seems to me.

Now let us all combine in considering whether
my account is really true. The opening of the ode
must at once appear crazy if, while intending to
say that it is hard for a man to become good, he
inserted “indeed.” There is no sort of sense, I
i ine, in this insertion, unless we suppose that
Simonides is addressing himself to the saying of
Pittacus as a disputant: Pittacus says—It is hard
to be good ; and the poet controverts this by observ-
ing—No, but to become good, indeed, is hard for a
man, Pittacus, truly—not truly good; he does not
mention truth in this connexion, or imply that some
things are truly good, while others are good but
not truly so: this would seem silly and unlike
Simonides. We must rather take the “truly ” as a
poetical transposition, and first quote the saying of
Pittacus in some such way as this: let us suppose
Pittacus himself to be speaking and Simonides reply-
ing, as thus—Good people, he says, it is hard to be
good; and the poet answers—Pittacus, what you
in the detailed commentary that follows, Socrates is aping

the disquisitions of the more literary sophists (e.g. Hippias,
who warmly approves, 347 a).
199

PLATO

344 Ilerraxé, odk ddAnOA Aé€yets: 0} yap elvar adda
yevéobar pév eotw avdpa ayabov xepoi te Kal
‘ ‘

Tool Kal vow TeTpaywvov, avev Yoyou TeTUyLEVOY,
aA ‘ aA 6 4 Nd / ‘jl ‘
yarerov dadabéws. ovrw daiverar [ro]* mpos

in Ld ‘ / > r / ‘ ‘ aA 4] ,
dyov TO peév eBeBAnuevov Kat To aAabews
an >
oplas én éeaydtw Kelwevov' Kal Ta emdvTa
rdvTa ToUTw jLapTupEl, OTL OUTWS elpnTat. 7oA-
Aa pev yap €ott Kal wept éexdorov tov & TH
B dopart cipnuevwy amodeifa ws €0 memoinrat:
navy yap xapievTws Kal peucAnuevws exer’ adda
‘ nn w > ‘ a vO ~ > A A
prakpov dv etn avro ovtw b1eAdetv: adda ov
t4 > ~ 4 7 b ¢ ‘ i 4,
turov avrod tov OAov SieEdADwpev Kat tHv Bov-
Ld A a ” , > ~
Anow, Gre mavtds paGAAov éreyxes eote Tod Mur-
Takelov pyuatros dua mavTos TOO Goparos.
/ 4 ‘ ~ >\/ 7 e nn
Aéyes yap pera totro oAtya dSueAPav, ws av
> / / a / A EA > A
ei. A€you Adyov, Ste yeveoOar pev avdpa ayabov
‘ > , / / + alk ,
xarerov adabéws, olov re pévTor emt ye Xpovov
Twa yevopevov Sé€ Siapeverw ev tadrn TH Eber
C Kai elvar dvSpa ayabdv, ws ad A€Xyers, @ Turrakeé,
> 4 ‘ > > 4 > A ‘ ” /
advvarov Kat odk avOpamevov, aAAd Beds av jovos
TobTo €xou TO yepas,
” > > ” 4 > ‘ ”
avipa 8 ovK €oTt py) OD KaKOoV EupevaL,
a nn > , \ ,
dv dv aunyavos cvppopa KabéAn.
, = > s x r) a ae A ,
tiva obv aunyavos ovpdopa Kabaipet ev mrAoiov
Gpxf; SiAov dre od tov iusryv 6 pev yap
iSuirns det Kabyjpnra: womep ovv od TOV KeEl-
/ n” / > \ * A e ~ 7
prevov tis av KataBdAo., adda Tov pev coTara
/ ~
mote KataBdAo. av Tis, WOTE KElEVOY TOLHoAL,
D tov 8€ Keiuevov dv, otTw Kal Tov edprxavoy ovTa
A / ‘ A Le |
moté dunyavos av ovpdopa KabéAo, tov d€ aei
4-5 secl. Heindorf.
200

PROTAGORAS

say is not true, for it is not being but becoming good,
indeed—in hands and feet and mind foursquare,
fashioned without reproach—that is truly hard.
In this way we see a purpose in the insertion of
“indeed,” and that the “ truly ” is correctly placed
at the end; and all that comes after corroborates
this view of his meaning. There are many points
in the various expressions of the poem which might
be instanced to show its fine composition, for it is a
work of very elegant and elaborate art ; but it would
take too long to detail all its beauties. However,
let us go over its general outline and intention,
which is assuredly to refute Pittacus’ saying, through-
out the ode.

Proceeding a little way on from our passage, just
as though he were making a speech, he says to
become, indeed, a good man is truly hard (not but
what it is possible for a certain space of time) ;
“but to continue in this state of what one has
become, and to be a good man is, as you say, Pittacus,
impossible, superhuman: God alone can have this
privilege—

For that man cannot help but be bad
Whom irresistible mischance has overthrown.

Now who is it that an irresistible mischance over-
throws in the command of a ship? Clearly not the
ordinary man, for he may be overcome at any time ;
just as you cannot knock over one who is lying
down, but one who is standing; you might knock
over a standing man so as to make him lie down,
not one who is lying down already. So it is a man
apt to resist that an irresistible mischance would
overthrow, and not one who could never resist

201

B45

PLATO

dpnyavov ovTa ov" kal Tov KuBepyiyrny péyas
\

XeyLeov emumeawv auixavov av Touroete, Kat

yewpyov xarem cpa éreModoa dyunxavov dy

Bein, Kat lar pov TtavTa TadTa. TO pev yap

Eo0Ad eyxwopet KaK@ yeveoBar, caomep Kal Tap

dou TounTod paptupeirat Tod eimdvTos

adtap davip dyabds roré pev Kakds, aAdore

8’ écbAds-

TO be Kax@ ovK eyxwpet yeveobar, dN’ dei
elva a avayKn* wore Tov pev edpnxavov Kal aodov
Kat dyabov émrevoav duunjyavos ouppopa. KaéAn,
ovK €oTt py) Ov KaKOV epupeeva od de dijs, @
Ilirraxé, xaAemov eoOAov eupevors to 8 ori
yeveoBar ev xaderdv, Suvarov Sé, eobAdv, eupe-
vat d€ ddvvarov:
mpdafas pev yap ed mds avnp ayabds,
Kakos 8 ef Kakds.

tis otv eis ypdypara ayaby mpaéis éort, Kal
tis dvdpa ayaldv moet eis ypaypara; Sidov
ore 4) ToUTwY pdnors. ris d¢ edmpayia dyaBov
iarpov moet; SiAov dre a TOV KapvovTeov Tijs
Oepazetas payors. Kakos 5€ Kak@s- Tis ovv
dv Kakos tarpos yevoito; dfAov étt @ mparTov
pev dadpyer latp@ clvar, emeita ayal@ iatpa-
odTos yap av Kat KaKds yévoiro: ayets dé of
tarpikfs idirat ovK dv mote yevoiucba Kaxds
mpafavres ote latpol ovte téxtToves ovTe GAXo
ovdey THv ‘ToLovTwr: Gots Sé pH larpos av yeé-
voto Kak@s mpdtas, dfAov ott od KaKds laTpds.
ovTw Kal 6 prev ayabds avip yevour’ av Tote Kal
202

PROTAGORAS

pa teas A great storm breaking over a steersman
ill render him helpless, and a severe season will
leave a farmer helpless, and a doctor will be in the
same case. For the good has the capacity of
becoming bad, as we have witness in another poet?
who said—

Nay more, the virtuous man is at one time bad, at another

whereas the bad man has no capacity for becoming,
but must ever be, what he is; so that when an
irresistible mischance overthrows him who is re-
sourceful, wise, and good, he cannot but be bad ;
and you say, Pittacus, that it is hard to be good—
that is, to become good, indeed, is hard, though
possible, but to be good is impossible : for—?

If he hath fared well, every man is good;
Bad, if ill.

Now what is good faring in letters—the thing that
makes a man good at them? Clearly, the study of
letters. What welfare makes a good doctor?
Clearly, the study of the cure of the ailing. ‘ Bad,-
if ill”: who could become a bad doctor? Clearly,
he who in the first place is a doctor, and in the
second, a good doctor; for he could become a bad
one also: whereas we, who are laymen in respect
of medicine, could never by faring ill become either
doctors or joiners or anything else of that sort;
and if one cannot become a doctor by faring ill,
clearly one cannot become a bad one either. In
the same way the good man may one day become
? Unknown.
? The quotation of Simonides’ poem is resumed (from
344. c).
203

PLATO

KaKos v0 xpovov v0 movou o] oro vdcou
7 bd. dMov Twos TepuTTaparos” avrn yap
povn eorl KaKn mpakis, emuoTnuns orepnOfvat:

6 Oe KaKos aynp ovK dv mote yévouro KaKOS*
€oTt yap det” GAN ei pédAee Kakos yevéoBar,
Set adrov m™poTepov ayabov yeveoBar. woTe Kal
ToUTO TOO dopatos mpos TodTo Telvet, STL elvat
bev avdpa ayalov ody olov re SiatedobvTa aya-
Adv, yevéoBar dé ayabov ofov re, Kal Kaxdv ye
Tov avTov Todrov: emt mAetorov Sé€ Kal apioToi
elow ots Gv of Deot dirdovw.

Tatra te obv mdvta ampos tov Ilirraxov et-
pyraL, Kal Ta émidvTa ye TOO dopaTtos ete waAdAov
dnAot. not yap-

Touvekev OU ToT eyw TO pn yeveodar Suvarov

duljpwevos Keveav és ampaxtov éAmida potpav

aidvos Badéw,

Tavawpnov avOpwrov, etpvedots Goo. Kapmov

aivipeba xBoves:

emi 6" tyuiv edpwv amayyedAéw,

dnow: ovrTw ofddpa Kal 80 dhou Too Goparos
emeLépyerar TH Tod Ilirraxod pyyate

mavras 8 émaivnue Kal drew

EKWVY OOTIS Epdt

_pndev aicxypov: avayrn 8 ot5é Oeol wdyovrat*
Kat Toor’ €oTl mpos TO avro TOTO cipnpevov.
ov yap ovTws dmaidevros iy Zupavidys, wore
Tovrous pdvar evraweiv, és av €K@v pn dev Kar
Toul}, eos dvTwv Twa@v ol éxdvTEs Kana, movovow.
eyw yap oxeddov Tt olwar Tobro, Gtt ovdels THY
204

PROTAGORAS

bad through the effect either of time or work or
illness or some other accident; for there is only
one sort of ill fare—the deprivation of knowledge.
But the bad man can never become bad: he is that
always. If he is to become bad, he must previously
become good. Hence the upshot of this part of the
poem is that it is impossible to be a good man,
continuing to be good, but possible to become
good, and bad also, in the case of the same person.
And then—

Best also for the longest space are they whom the gods love.!

All this has been said with reference to Pittacus,
as is made still plainer by the ensuing verses, in
which he says—

Therefore never shall I, in quest of what cannot come to
pass, vainly cast my life’s lot upon a hope impracticable—
of finding a man wholly blameless amongst us who partake

of the fruit of the broad-based earth. If I light upon him,
be sure I will report it—

says he; and in this vehement tone he pursues the
saying of Pittacus all through the poem :

But I praise and love everyone willingly committing no
baseness; for against necessity not even the gods make
war.

This also is spoken*with the same intent. For
Simonides was not so ill-educated as to say that he
praised a person who willingly did no evil, as though
there were some who did evil willingly. I _am
fairly sure of this—that none of the wise men con-

1 Probably a loose quotation of a line of the poem which
Was kai 7d mieiotov dpioto, Tobs Ke Beot diAGow (Aars).

1 éri @ Adam: éwi 3’ dum Bergk: ére.d’ Mss.
VOL. IV H 205

346

PLATO

~ EI] 5 ~ e A Po) / > 6 , ec 7
copay avdpav nyetrar obdéva avOpdimwv éexdvTa
efapapravew ovde aicypd Te Kal Kaka éKovTa
>? / > > = ” bg 4 ¢ A
epyalecOar, aA «b loacw Gti mdvtes of TA
aioypa Kal 74. KaKa movobvres dxovres mrovobou-
Kat 57) kal 6 Lyrewvidys ovx Os av py) Kaka Troup
EKO, TOUTWY pyoty emawverns elvat, aa mept
€avtod Ad€yer TovTo TO éexwv. WyeiTo yap av-
Spa Kaddv Kayabov modAdKis adrov émavayxalew
dirov Twi yiyvecbas Kat éemawerny [dirciv wat
errawveiy |, 1 ofov avdpt modus oupBivat pyrépa
7 marépa dAASKoTOv 7) TaTpioa 7 aMo Tl TOV
ToLoUTWY. Tods LEV OvV TrOVNnpOUs, OTaY ToOLODTOV
Tt avrois ovpBH, womep aopevouvs spay Kal pé-
yovras emdeckvivar Kal KaTyyopeiy THY Trovnpiay
Tav yovéwy % matpidos, wa attois auecAodow

» A > ~ e ” > > /
at’tav pi eykaAdow ot avOpwmor pnd’ dvedi-
Cwow ott apedotow, wore Ett paddAov éeyew
Te avTovs Kal €x$pas éKxovaiovs mpos Tais avay-

>

Kalais” mpootibecbar: todvs 8 ayabods émuxp-
mrecbai Te Kal errawety avaykalecba, Kai av Tt
dpywcb@ou tots yovedow 7 matpidu abdiucnbevres,
> ‘ ¢ \ a \ /

avtovs éavtovds tapapvletobar Kat diadAAdrTecbat
mpocavaykalovras éavtods dideiv tods éavTav
Kal emrauvety. modus dé, olwat, Kal Lyw-
vids Hyioaro Kal avros A tUpavvov 7 aAdAov
Twa TOV ToLwvTwy emawéoat Kal eyKwpidoat

? c 7 > > > : / ~ \ ‘
ody €xwv, dAd’ avayKkalopnevos. Tatra 67) Kal

~ ~ 7 ov > /. > 7, > A
T® Wlirraxd rAéyer ote eyw, @ Mlirraxé, od dia

PS / ca a , > \

Taba o€ wéyw, ort eli didrdioyos, ézet
” > > a (a an A ‘
éuouy e€apKe? Os av 2) KaKos }
1 grey kal émauve secl. Grou.

206

PROTAGORAS
siders that anybod illingly e ili NS

“ies Dass and ell deeds: they ars well aware that
Ww. o do base and evil things do them unwillingly ;

and so Simonides does not say he gives his praise
to the person who willingly does no evil, but uses the
word “ willingly” of himself. For he considered .
that a man of sense and honour often constrains _
himself to become a friend and approver of some
person, as when a man chances to have an un-
congenial mother or father or country or other such
connexion. Now when this sort of thing befalls
the wicked, they seem glad to see their parents’
or country’s faults, and complainingly point them
out and inveigh against them, in order that their own
neglect of them may not be denounced by their
neighbours, who might otherwise reproach them for
being so neglectful; and hence they multiply their
complaints and add voluntary to unavoidable feuds.
But good men, he knew, conceal the trouble and
constrain themselves to praise, and if they have any
reason to be angered against their parents or country
for some wrong done to them they pacify and
conciliate their feelings, compelling themselves to
love and praise their own people. And many a
time, I think, Simonides was conscious that he had
praised and eulogized some tyrant or other such
person, not willingly, but under compulsion. So he
proceeds to tell Pittacus—I, Pittacus, do not reproach
you merely because I am apt to reproach, since—

For my part I am content with whosoever is not evil or

* avayxalars Heusde: dvdyxais mss,
207

34

PLATO

.

pnd dyay dmdAapvos, elds 7 dvnoitodw! Sdixav
Syujs dvjp-

ov pw” éyw pwunoopar.

od yap eiut diAdcuwpos-

Tov yap HAGiwy areipwv yevebda,

WaT et Tis xaiper éywv, eumrAnobein av éxeivous

preddpmevos.
mdvTa ToL KaAd, Toici 7 aicypa fp) péepiKTaL,

>? ~ / oe bal > sy 4
od rTobro Aéyet, womep av et edeye mdvTa ToL
Acuxd, ols péAava pI) peueKTae- yeAotov yap ‘av
etn Today aN’ ort avros Kat 7a. piéoa aro-
d€éxerau wate pn wéyew- Kat od lntad, &dn,
TAVEpLwpLov dvOpwrov, evpvedods Goot Kap7rov
aivtucba xOoves, eri 0 dpiv edpov amayyedéew:
@ tf > a > /, > /, > ,
wote tovTov y evexa ovdeva emawéoopa, aAdd
pot e€apKet, av 7 pécos Kal pndev KaKov Trovh,
Os eyw mavras dir€w Kai eraivynui—kal TH dwv7
evrai0a Kéxpntat TH THv MuriAnvaiwy, ws mpos
Ilirraxov Aéywv 1rO mavras Se émaivnur Kat
pire éKosv (evrat0a Set &v TO éxciv SiadaBeiv
A€yovra.) doris pin pndev aiaxpov,. dicey s
coTw ots eyw errauva) Kat ido. ge obv, Kal
et péeaws edeyes emieiky Kat adAnOy, @& Ilirraké,
> ” ” a , / ‘ ‘
otk av mote éeyov. viv dé—odddpa yap Kat
\ ~ / / cal > ~
Tepl. Tav peyiotwy yevddmeros Soxets adAnb7
déyew, dia Tatra oe eyw peyw.
Tatra pot Soxet, & Ipdduce Kai Ipwrayopa,
qv & eyo, Dyeeovidys Suavoovpevos TETOUNKEVAL
Todro To dopa. Kal 6 ‘Immias, Ed pév por do-

1 7’ évncimokwy G. Hermann: ye évnce rod Mss,
2 wy» Schleiermacher: si Mss.

208

PROTAGORAS

too intractable. He who knows Richt. the support of a
city, is a healthy man; him I shall never blame, for to
blame I am not apt. Infinite is the race of fools.

So that whoever delights in reproaching would have
his fill of blaming them :

Verily, all things are fair that have in them no admixture
of base.

By this he does not mean to say, as it were, that
all things are white that have no admixture of
black ; that would be ridiculous in many ways; but
that he himself accepts the average sort without
reproaching them. “I do not seek,” said he, “a
man wholly blameless amongst us who partake of
the fruit of the broad-based earth: if I light upon
him, be sure I will report it ’—meaning, “ If I wait
for that, I shall never find anyone to praise. No, I
am content if a man be average and do nothing
evil, since I love and praise all ’—and there he has
used a Mytilenaean word,! for his “I praise and
love all willingly ” is addressed to Pittacus (here at
“ willingly ” one should make a pause) ;—“ all who
commit nothing base, but some there are whom I
praise and love unwillingly. Hence I should never
reproach you, Pittacus, if you would only speak
what is moderately reasonable and true. But as it
is, since you lie so grievously about the greatest
matters with an air of speaking the truth, on this
score I reproach you.”

Such is my view, Prodicus and Protagoras, I said,
of Simonides’ intention in composing this ode.

Then Hippias remarked: It certainly seems to

? The form of the word éralynu: is pedantically adduced
to emphasize the poet’s censure of Pittacus.

209

PLATO

Kets, edn, @ LaKpares, Kal ov mept rob doparos
SueAnAvBevar- €or pevro, éfn, Kal E[.ol Adyos
Tept avrod ed EXO, ov vpiv éemdeiEw, a dy BowAn-
ale. Kal 6 "AdceBrddys, Nat, eon, ® “Inzia,
eloabbis yer vov 5€ Sikadv eorw, a wporoyn-
oaTnv mpos ddA Aw IIpwraydpas Kat LwKparns,
IIpwraydpas pev ei ert BovAerae épwrav, amo-
Kpiveobau Lwxparn, ei be on BotAerat LeKparet
dmroxpiveoOar, € epwrav TOV €TEpov. kal eya elrrov
"Enutpémw pev eywye Ipwrayopa OmOTEpoV abre
7Ovov: ei de BovAerau, rept peev dopdrev TE Kal
em@v edowper, mept Sé wv TO mp@rov eye ge
NpwTynoa, @ Ipwraydpa, nd€ews dy emt téAos
eABoune pera ood oKorrovpevos. Kal yap doxet
pot TO rept Toujoews diahéyeoOa Opoudrarov
elvau Tots ovptrociots Tois TeV pavrwy Kat dyo-
paiwy avOp@mwv. Kat yap obra, dia TO pa
dwvacbat dA Aous bu’ €avT@v ouveivat ev T@
TOT pede dia Ths éavTav pwvis Kal TOv Aéyeov
tev éavTav bo amaidevalas, TYytias oLotor
Tas avAnrpioas, ToAAob _ HecBodpevor aAAoTpiav
pwvyy TH Tay avrdy, Kat dia THs exeivwv Pwvijs
dAArjAous ovvevow" orrov Se xaNot kayabot oup.-
mora Kal Tmemardevpevor eioiv, ovK av tdows
ovr avAnrpidas oUTe opxnoTpioas ovTE paArpias,
aAN’ adrovs abrois ixavovs ovras ouveivat dvev
T&v Ajpwv Te Kal madicav Tovrea did. Tis abrayv
puvijs, A€youtds Te Kal dxovovras év bépe éavT@v
Koopis, Kav mavu moby oivov miwow. ovTw
Sé Kai ai rovaide ovvovotat, eav pev AdBwvra
avipav, oloimep nudv ot modAdoi dacw eivar,
ovdev Séovrat aAdotpias Pwvijs ovd€ mownTar,
210

PROTAGORAS

me, Socrates, that you have given a good exposition
of the poem; but I also have an elegant discourse
upon it, which I will perform for you if you wish.

Yes, Hippias, said Alcibiades, but some other
time : for the moment the proper thing, according
to the agreement which Protagoras and Socrates
made between them, will be for Socrates to answer
any questions that Protagoras may still wish to put
to him, but if he prefers to answer Socrates, then it
will be for Socrates to ask.

On this I remarked: For my part I place it in
Protagoras’s hands to do whichever he likes best.
But if he does not mind, let us talk no more of poems
and verses, but consider the points on which I
questioned you at first, Protagoras, and on which
I should be glad to reach, with your help, a conclusion.
For it seems to me that arguing about poetry is
comparable to the wine-parties of common market-
folk. These people, owing to their inability to carry
on a familiar conversation over their wine by means
of their own voices and discussions—such is their
lack of education—put a premium on flute-girls by
hiring the extraneous voice of the flute at a high
price, and carry on their intercourse by means of
its utterance. But where the party consists of
thorough gentlemen who have had a proper educa-
tion, you will see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls
nor harp-girls, but only the company contenting
themselves with their own conversation, and none
of these fooleries and frolics—each speaking and
listening decently in his turn, even though they
may drink a great deal of wine. And so a gathering
like this of ours, when it includes such men as most
of us claim to be, requires no extraneous voices,

211

348

PLATO

a“ ” > , / Bc) \ 1 @ ,
ods ove avepéoba oldv 7° eori mepi Hv Aéyovow,
emayopevol Te adTovs ot moAdoi ev tots Adyots
ot pev Tadra pact Tov tronTHy voeiv, ot 8 Erepa,
‘ / , a > ~ >
Tept mpdypatos Siadeyopevor 6 advvatovow e€-
/ > \ ‘ A tf / IA
eAéy€ar: adda tas pev TovadTas ovvovaias eat
xaipew, avrot 8 éavtois otvevot Se’ éavtdv, ev
tois é€avt@v Adyows metpay adAAjAwv AapBavovtes
Kal diddvres. Tods torovrovs por SoKe? xphvar
paAAov pipetoOa eué te Kai o€, Katabepevous
A \ > \ > ¢ ~ > ~ A > /
Tovs ToinTas adTovs du Hud adt@v mpos aAAjAous
tovs Adyous moveioba, THs aAnOeias Kai Wudv
b ~ a , “ A uA ”
aitav meipav AapBavovras: Kav pev BovAn ere
epwrdv, €Tods eli oor mapéxew azroKpwope-
oA A / A > A / A es
vos: eéav b€ BovAn, od emo mapdaxes, mepl av
A > 4, / , , >
petaéd erravoducba dic€vvres, TovToIs TéAos émt-
fetvar. A€yovtos odv euod Tatra Kal Toiaira
»” Oo 4 > / ¢ /, e /
dAAa ovdév amecddes 6 IIpwraydpas omdrepa
/ >. > e > / A 4
moujoot. e€imev ovv 6 "AAKiBiadns mpos Tov
KadAiav Brébas, 7Q Kaddia, Soxet cor, edn, Kal
~ ~ , A > 27 ”
vov KaAds IIpwraydpas mroveiv, odk €Oédwy cite
a ‘
SwHce Adyov etre pr Stacadeiv; Epol yap od
a > > ” , a > /, a >
Soxet? dA’ Aro SiareyéoOw 7 eimérw oti ovK
207 , td 4 4 ~
€Gdrer SuadéyecPar, wa to’Tw pev TadTa ovvet-
S@pev, Lwxparyns S€ dAAw tw Siadréynras 7 aAXos
oe vn / ¢ ‘ e ,
dotits av BovAnra aGAAw. Kat 6 Ilpwraydpas
aisyuvbeis, Ws ye por edoke, Tod te “AAKiBiddov
~ 4 ‘ ~ , (ai ‘
ratra Aéyovtos Kai tod KaAXiov dSeopevov Kai
Tav GAAwy oxeddv TL THY TapdvTwY, LoyLs TpoU-

212

PROTAGORAS

not even of the poets, whom one cannot question
on the sense of what they say; when they are
adduced in discussion we are generally told by
some that the poet thought so and so, and by others,
something different, and they go on arguing about a
matter which they are powerless to determine. No,,
this sort of meeting is avoided by men of culture, who.
prefer to converse directly with each other, and to
use their own way of speech in putting one another
by turns to the test. It is this sort of person that
I think you and I ought rather to imitate ; putting
the poets aside, let us hold our discussion together
in our own persons, making trial of the truth and of
ourselves. So if you wish to question me further,
I am at your service as answerer; but if you like,
put yourself at my service, so that we may clear
up the several points of the inquiry in which we
stopped half-way.

On my saying this and something more of the sort,

tagoras gave no indication as to which course he
would take. So Alcibiades, looking at Callias, said:
Do you consider, Callias, that Protagoras is behaving
properly now in refusing to signify whether he will
or will not answer? I do not think he is. Let
him either debate or say that he does not want to
debate, so that we may have this understanding
with him; then Socrates can debate with someone
else, or another of us with some other, as may be
agreed.

Then Protagoras was ashamed, as it seemed to
me, at these words of Alcibiades, and the more so
when Callias requested him, together with almost
the whole of the company; and so he reluctantly
prevailed on himself to take up the debate, and

VOL. IV H2 213

349

PLATO

TpdmeTo els TO diaréyeoBar Kat exéAevev epwrdr
avTov wes daroxpivovpevos.

Eizov 87) eyw, °Q IIpwraydpa, pa otov dua
A€yeoBai pe aot dAdo tt BovAdpuevov 7 a avTos
dmropé EKGOTOTE, Taba, Siackepacbar. Hyoopwat
yap mdvu A€yew te TOV “Ounpov Td

/ ”» > / / Tey! a > 7s
avv te dU’ Epxopevw, Kai Te 7pd 6 TOD evoncer.

eUTropusTepor yap Tos dmravrés eopev ot dvOpwrror
Tos dav epyov Kal Adyov Kal Savona podvos
8 eimep Te vonon, avrira mepuav Cyntret otw
emdeignrat kal pel’ Srov PeBawsontar, ews
av evTvxn. womep Kal éyw evexa TovTov gol
Hd€ws Siaréyouar padAdAov 7 GAAw Twi, Hyov-
pevds oe BéArior’ dv émoxépacba Kal epi
TtOv adAwy epi dv eikos oxoretobar Tov émieikh,
Kat 57) Kal mept aperhs. Ttiva yap dAdAov 7 oe;
Os ye o¥ pdvov adros ole Kadds Kayabds elvat,
womep tiwes GAdor adroi pev emterkets eioiv,

“adAovs S€ od Stvavrat movetv: ad Sé Kat adbros

ayabos ef Kai ddAous olds 7° ef rrovetv ayalods.
kal ovUTw memiotevKas cavT@, wate Kail aAdAwy
TavUTny THY TéxVnY aToKpuTTOMevwY av y’ ava-
gavdov ceavTov vroKnpuvédpevos eis mavtas Tovs
"EAAnvas, oodiotiy éemovoudcas, ceavTov dzré-
dynvas trawdevoews Kal aperis SiddoKadov, mp@ros
tovtov puclov aéiwoas apvvcba. mas obv ov
oe xphv mapakadeivy emi tiv TovTwy oKefw Kal
epwrav Kat dvaxowobtoba; odk €o0’ Smws ov.
Kal viv 51) eyw exeiva, amep TO mpOrov npwrwr

1 Iliad, x. 224.
214

PROTAGORAS

asked to have questions put to him, since he was
ready to answer.

So I proceeded to say—Protagoras, do not suppose
that I have any other desire in debating with you
than to examine the difficulties which occur to
myself at each point. For I hold that there is a
good deal in what Homer ! says—

When two go together, one observes before the other;

for somehow it makes all of us human beings more
resourceful in every deed or word or thought ; but
if one observes something alone, forthwith one has to
go about searching until one discovers somebody to
whom one can show it off and who can corroborate it.
And I also have my reason for being glad to debate
with you rather than with anyone else; it is that
I regard you as the best person to investigate in
general any matters that a sensible man may be
expected to examine, and virtue in particular.
Whom else should I choose but you? Not only
do you consider yourself a worthy gentleman, like
sundry other people, who are sensible enough
themselves, but cannot make others so; but you
are both good yourself and have the gift of making
others good. And you are so confident of yourself
that, while others make a secret of this art, you
have had yourself publicly proclaimed to all the
Greeks with the title of sophist, and have appointed
yourself preceptor of culture and virtue, and are
the first who has ever demanded a regular fee for
such work. What then could I do but call upon
you to deal with our problem both by question
and communication? I had no other course. So
now with regard to those points which I have raised

215

PLATO

mept tovTwy, mdAw éembuud e€ dapyfs Ta pev
dvapvnobjvat mapa aod, Ta Sé ovvdiacKkéeacba.
nv dé, ws evar, TO epaoTnia TOdE* copia Kal
owppoowvy Kal dvdpeta Kal Suxcaoouvy Kat dovdrns
mOTEpov Taba, meVTE ovTa ovopara, emt évi mpay-
part éoTw, 7 exdorw Tav ovopatay ToUre
drdKerral Tis ldvos ovata Kal mpayya. eXov. éavTod
Svvapw Exacrov, odK dv olov TO Erepov adTa&v TO
erepov; e€pynaba odv od otk ovopara emi évi eivat,
GAA ExacTov idiw mpdypate THY dvou“dTwy TovTwY
emucetobar, mavTa dé Tabra popia selva apeTijs,
ovx ws Ta TOO xpvaod popra Opoud éorw dr Aows
Kal TO ohy od popud coTw, aN’ os Ta Tob Tpo-
owrrov pdpia Kal TO dAw od propia eorw Kal aGAdr-
Aows avopowa, diay Exacta Stvayw Exovtra. tadra
ei ev oot Soke? ert Womep TOTE, PAIL’ ei S€ dAAws
mus, ToOTO Sidpioar, ws eywye ovdev got bnddoyov
Tiepar, € eay ™7 aM viv ojos: ob yap av Oavpd-
Coume, et Tore ATOTELPU[LEVOS pou Tavra. edeyes.

7AM’ ey got, eon, Aéyo, @ LaKpares, ort
tabra mavra, popia. pev €oTw aperis, Kal Ta pev
TéTTapa avta@v émieiK@s mapamAjoia aAdrAots
€otiv, 7 dé avdpeia mavu todd diadepov mavTwy
TOUTWV. Ode de yrosce OTe ey adnb réyw-
evproets yap mohAovs Tay dvOpasmey dduKwTatous
pev évtas Kal dvoowTdTous Kai axoAacToTaTous
Kal dpabeordrous, avB8pevorarous d¢ dvadepdvTws.
“Exe 57), edn eya" df vov © yap To emoKxepacbar
6 Aéyets. TOTEpov TOvs aVvdpeious Bappadous
Aéyers 7) GANo 71; Kal tras ye, edn, &p’ & ot oAAot

—-

1 Cf. 329 c foll.
216

PROTAGORAS

on the subject in my opening questions, I desire
to be reminded of some by you and to have your
help in investigating others. The question, I
believe, was this:1 Are the five names of wisdom,
temperance, courage, justice, and holiness attached
‘to one thing, or underlymg each of these names /y «
is there a existence or thin at has its
own particular function, each thing = different
-from the others? And your answer was that they
are not names attached to one thing, but that each
of these names applies to a distinct thing, and that
SI these are parte of virtue; not Whe the paris of

gold, which are similar to each other and to_the

and to each and ea i istinct
ction. you still hold the same opinion of them,
say sO; if you have a new one, define what it is,
for I make no objection to your replying now on
other lines. Indeed I should not be surprised if you
were merely experimenting upon me when you
spoke before.

Well, Socrates, he replied, I say that all these
are parts of virtue, and that while four of them are
fairly on a par with each other, courage is something
vastly different from all the rest. You may perceive
the truth of what I say from this : you will find many
people extremely unjust, unholy, dissolute, and
ignorant, and yet pre-eminently courageous.

Stop now, I said: we must duly examine what
you say. Do you call courageous men bold, or
something else ?

Yes, and impetuous also, he replied, where most
men fear to tread.

217

350

PLATO

doBobvrar tévar. Depe 8H, tiv aperiv Kaddv tt
A ~ a
dys etvar, Kai ws Kadod dvtos adtod ad S:SdcKadov
‘
cavrov mapexeis; KdAdorov pev odv, edn, et
:
Ln paivouai ye. Tdrepov ody, fv 8 yw, ro pev
Tt avtod aicxpov, TO dé Te KaAdv, % SAov Kadov;
4
Odov mov Kaddv ws ofdv te pddvota. Oloba odv
tes eis Ta dpéara KodvpPGor Oappadréews;
"Eywye, Ott of KoAvpPyrai. Ildrepov didte éezi-
oravra 7 St GAXo 71; “Ort exiotravtar. Tives dé
> ‘ ~ a ~ 7 » BET ,
amo Ta&v immwv modeuetv Oappaddot eici; mdrepov
ot immKol 4% of adimmor; Oi immo. Tives dé
/, ” c ‘ n“ c , ec
méAtas €xovtes; ot meAtaoriKol 7 of py; OF
Ud ‘ A ” / > ~
meAraoTiKol. Kat Ta ddAa ye mdvTa, €i TobTo
Cnreis, edn, of emotipoves TOV pn emoTApLeven
Oapparewrepot <iot, Kat adroit éavT@v, émedav
a~ ¢
pudbwow, 7 mpw pabeiv. “Hdn 5€ twas éedpaxas,
édynv, mavrwy TovTwy avemioTHovas OvTas, Fap-
~ 7, ” >
podvras S¢ mpos Exacta TovTwv; "“Eywye, 7 8 ds,
Kal Aiav ye Oappodvras. Ovdxodv ot Gappaddor
a“ > A >
obro. Kal avdpetoi <ciow; Aioypov pevr av, én,
ww e393 / > ‘ & / 2 ld / > I ~
ein 1) av8peia errel obdrot ye pawopevoi eiow. Ids
obv, édnv eyw, A€yes- Tovs avdpeiovs; ovxXL Tods
\ ~ > ” > ~
Oappaddovs clvar; Kat viv y’, édn. Ovdxodv

218

PROTAGORAS

Well now, do you say that virtue is a good thing,
and of this good thing offer yourself as teacher ?

Nay, it is the best of things, he said, unless I am
out of my senses.

Then is one part of it base and another good,
or is the whole good ?

Surely the whole is good in the highest possible
degree.

Now do you know who dive boldly into wells ?

I do; divers.

Is this because they have knowledge, or for some
other reason ?

Because they have knowledge.

And who are bold in going to war on horseback—
those who are practised horsemen, or those who are
not ?

Practised horsemen.

And who with bucklers—buckler-men, or those
who are not ?

Buckler-men : and so with all other cases, he went
on, if that is your point ; those who have knowledge
are bolder than those who lack it, and individually
they are bolder when they have learnt than before
learning.

But you must have seen at times, I said, persons
who are without knowledge of any of these affairs,
yet behaving boldly in each of them.

I have, he said, and very boldly too.

Then are these bold ones courageous also ?

Nay, that would make courage a base thing, he
replied ; for those you speak of are out of their senses.

What then, I asked, do you mean by courageous
men? Surely the same as bold men ?

Yes, I do still, he said.

219

351

PLATO

obra, Hv 8 éeyw, ot ottw Bappadréor dvres ovdK
avdpetor adAAa pawdpevor daivovrar; Kat exe ab
ot codwrarot obror Kal Pappadrewraroi eicr, Bappa-
Accbrarou de OvTes ayOpevdrarou ; Kal Kata Todrov
TOV Adoyov 7 n copia a av dvdpeta ein; Od Kadds, €pn,
pevnpovevers, @ LaKpates, a Edeydv TE Kal amreKpt-
vounv cot. eywye epwrnbeis bo god, €c ot i dvdpetou
bappadr€éor cioiv, dpoddoynoa: €i i de Kal ot i Oappadéor
dvdpetor, ovK jparnOny: el yap pe Tore Tpov,
elmov av Ott ov mdvTes: Tovds 5é avdpelous ws od
fappadgor eioi, TO euov opoddynua oddapnod
emédetEas ws odK dpb@s wpoddynoa. Emerta Tovs
emaTapevous avrovs éavT@v . Gappadcwrépous
évras amropaivers Kal 47) emuorapeveny aAAwv, Kal
ev ToUTw ole THY avdpeiay Kal THY Godiay TadTov
elvat: TovTw Sé TH TpoTM pETLaVY Kal THY loxdv
oinbeins av elvar codiav. mp@rov pev yap €i ovrw
[ETLV EpoLd jue Et Of taxupol Suvarot cio, dainv av:
€meiTa, €t of EmuoTdevor TaAalew SvvaTwrepol Etat
TOV pn emoTapevwv madaiew Kal adrol atrav,
everday pd0wow, 7) mplv pabeiv, dainv av: tatra
Sé €uo0d duodroyyjaavros e&ein dv cot, xpwuevw Tots
adrois Texpnplois TovTots, A€yew Ws KaTa THY env
dpodroyiav 4 aodia eoriv iaxts. éeyw dé oddapod
ovd’ evtatfa dcporoyd todvs Suvarods iaxupods
elvat, Tovs pévtor ioxvpods Suvatovs: od yap
ravTov eivar Svvapiv te Kai ioxdy, adda TO ev
Kal amo emuoTHuns ylyvecBar, tiv Sdvapww, Kat
amo pavias ye Kai Oupod, icxydv S€ amo dvcews
Kal edtpodias TOV owudtwv. ovTw dé KaKet od

220

PROTAGORAS

Then these men, I went on, who are so brave, are
found to be not courageous but mad? And in those
former cases our wisest men are boldest too, and
being boldest are most courageous? And on this
reasoning, wisdom will be courage ?

You do not rightly recall, Socrates, what I stated
in replying to you, When you asked me whether
courageous men are bold, I admitted it: I was not
asked whether bold men are courageous. Had you
asked me this before, I should have said—* Not all.”
And as to proving that courageous men are not
bold, you have nowhere pointed out that I was
wrong in my admission that they are. Next you
show that such persons individually are bolder
when they have knowledge, and bolder than others
who lack it, and therewith you take courage and
wisdom to be the same: proceeding in this manner
you might even take strength to be wisdom. On
this method you might begin by asking me whether
the strong are powerful, and I should say “ Yes” ;
and then, whether those who know how to wrestle
are more powerful than those who do not know how
to wrestle, and whether individually they are more

werful when they have learnt than before learning,
and I should say “ Yes.” And on my admitting
these points it would be open to you to say, by the
same token, that according to my admission wisdom
is strength. But neither there nor elsewhere do I
admit that the powerful are strong, only that the
strong are powerful; for I hold that power and
strength are not the same, but that one of them,
power, comes from knowledge, or from madness or
rage, whereas strength comes from constitution and
fit nurture of the body. So, in the other instance,

22)

PLATO

9-2 4 % > , @
tatvrov elvat Odpoos te Kal avdpeiav: wore ovp-
/ 4
Baiver rods pev avdpeiovs Oappaddous efvar, 7
/ ,
pevtot Tovs ye Dappadgous avdpetous wavtas: Adpaos
A \ 4 > A
fev yap Kal-amo téxvns ylyverat avOpwrots Kai
> ‘ “A
amo Oupod ye Kal amo pavias, womep 7 Svvapus,
> / ae ~ ~
avdpeia Sé ard ddcews Kal edtpodias Tav uydv
,
ylyverat.
/ , ~
Aéyes 8€ twas, édnv, & Tpwrayopa, trav
> , ~ A ” > >
avOpdirav ed Civ, ros 5€ Kaxd@s; “Edn. *Ap
Je 2 8 a ” nn = ~ » > , ,
ovv doKet cot avOpwrros dv eb Civ, et avimpevos TE
‘ > ¢ ,
Kat ddvvarevos Cain ; Odk edn. Ti 8, et Hews
‘ a
Buods tov Biov reAcutyjceev, odK €d av cou SoKet
4 \ ”
ovtws PeBuwkévar; “Epory’, ébn. To pev dpa
e ~ ~
ndéws Civ ayabov, 7d & andas Kaxov ; Eimep tots
a >
Kadois y’, bn, Loin nddopevos. Ti 84, d Ipwr-
/, 4 ‘ 4, Ld e / ¢ / ”
ayopa; pn Kat ov, womep ot moAAoi, Hd€a aTTa
- /
KaAeis Kaka Kal aviapa ayaba; eyd yap A€Eyw,
0’ “a Ts) / > / > \ ~ > > 6 / ‘
Kal’ 6 7d€a eotiv, dpa Kata TodTo ovK ayaa, uy
el tt am adra@v amoBycera GAAo; Kal adfis ad
: 7,
Ta aviapa woatvTws ovTws od Kal’ Goov avapa,
/ ~ a
kaka; Ovx oida, &d LadKpares, ebyn, a7ADs ovtTws,
~ e ,
Ws od epwrds, et Euol azoxpiréov eoTlv, Ws TA 75€a
> ae Ld \ en ‘ , > ,
te ayald éorw dmavta Kal Ta aviapa Kaka: adAd
a -~ > ‘
prot Soke? od provov mpos THY viv amoKpLoW EOL
‘ A
aogpadgorepov eivar amoxpivacba, adAa Kai mpos
4 A + ld \ > / a a \ “a ~
mavta Tov aAdov Biov Tov eudv, dtu €oTe pev a TOV
e , > ” > / ” > = A a ~
Hdéwv odK E€oTw ayald, éorr 8 ad Kai & THY

222

PROTAGORAS

boldness and courage are not the same, and therefore
it results that the courageous are bold, but not that
the bold are courageous; for boldness comes to a
man from art, or from rage or madness, like power,
whereas courage comes from constitution and fit
nurture of the soul.

Do you speak of some men, Protagoras, I asked, as
living well, and others ill ?

oy es .

Then do you consider that a man would live well
if he lived in distress and anguish ?

No, he said.

Well now, if he lived pleasantly and so ended his
life, would you not consider he had thus contrived
to live well ?

I would, he said.

And, I suppose, to live pleasantly is good, and
unpleasantly, bad ?

Yes, he said, if one lived in the enjoyment of
honourable things.

But, Protagoras, will you tell me you agree with
the majority in calling some pleasant things bad
and some painful ones good? I mean to say—Are
not things good in so far as they are pleasant, putting
aside any other result they may have; and again,
are not painful things in just the same sense bad—
in so far as they are painful ?

I cannot tell, Socrates, he replied, whether I am to
answer, in such absolute fashion as that of your
question, that all pleasant things are good and
painful things bad: I rather think it safer for me
to reply, with a view not merely to my present
answer but to all the rest of my life, that some
pleasant things are not good, and also that some

223

352

PLATO

3 ~ .] ” / ” 2 ae ‘ ,
aviap@v ovK €oTt Kakd, €ate 8° a& Eat, Kal TpiToVv
“a i) / 4 ‘ wv” > > 6 , c PS) / 4
a ovdeTepa, ovTe Kaka ovr ayala. “Hédda dé
a > ~
Kadeis, Hv 8 eywd, od Ta OovAS petéxovTa 7
~ ¢€ / / > ” ~ ,
tovwobvra ndovyv; Ildvy y’, ébn. Toiro roi
Xr , 2. aes eg7 ae 7 ? ? > s \
éyw, Kal’ dcov 7béa €otiv, ei odK ayabd, Tiv
‘3 A + Se, | > ~ > > > , > a
qdoviv adriv épwrdv «i odk ayabdv éorw. “Qozep
A Ar , ” e / > py / lA
av A€yets, Edn, ExdoToTe, © UaKpares, cxoTr@peba
avd, Kal €av [euempos Adyov SoKH <ivas To oxeupa
Kai 70 adro haivnrat HOU Te Kal ayabov, cvyywpy-
, 0 > de , l4 ” > /
aopcba «t dé py, ToTe dn apdioByrjcoper.
, - s > > 7 ‘ , ¢ 7 ~
Ildrepov ov, jv 8 eyw, od BovAer Hyenovevew THs
>
/ bal > \ ¢ ~ , wv ‘
oxéhews, eyo yy@uar; Aixawos, &dy, od
e al ‘ A \ , ~ Xr / PA >
Hyetobo: od yap Kal Katdpxeis Too Adyov. *Ap
= 3° > cA AS / A an tc a Ld 5€%
obv, Hv 8 éyw, THOSE 7H Katadaves av Huiv yévowro;
~ > ~
wotep el tis avOpwrov ocKxoma@v. ek Tob Eldous 7
mpos vyiecav % mpos GAAo te THv TOO owparos
‘ 4 a
épywv, iiwv TO mpdcwmov Kal Tas xEetpas akpas
‘ A \
elzrou iOe 87 prot arroxadvibas Kal Ta oT7}On Kal TO
/ > is o > / / m
peradpevor érider€ov, va émoKxebwar capéatepov
a” ~ /,
Kal ey@ Towodrov Tt 708@ mpos THv oxebw: Peacd-
> 4 ‘ L Cae
fLevos OTL OUTWS ExELs TpPOS TO ayaboy Kal TO HSU,
¢ , , af > ~ 10 Ps) / >
ws dys, Séopar Tovodrov te eimeiv: tO dy por, @
IIpwraydpa, Kai 7déd€ Tis Siavoias amoKxdAvipov-
m@s EXELS TPOS ETLOTHUNV; TMOTEpoV Kal TOOTS GoL
a” a a > 7, bal *
Soxet Womep Tots moAdois avOpwmos, 7 aAAws;
a a“ a 2.2 /, a fs
doxet S€ Tots toAAois Epi EmvoTHuNs ToLodTdy TL,
> > A >
ovK icxupov ovd’ ayewoviKov 008° apxuKoy elvac-

224

PROTAGORAS

painful things are not bad, and some are, while a
third class of them are indifferent—neither bad nor

You call pleasant, do you not, I asked, things that
partake of pleasure or cause pleasure ?

Certainly, he said.
So when I put it to you, whether things are not
good in so far as they are pleasant, I am asking

whether pleasure itself is not a good thing.

Let us examine the matter, Socrates, he said,
in the form in which you put it at each point, and if
the proposition seems to be reasonable, and pleasant
and good are found to be the same, we shall agree
upon it; if not, we shall dispute it there and then.

And would you like, I asked, to be leader in the
inquiry, or am I to lead ?

You ought to lead, he replied, since you are the
inaugurator of this discussion.

Well then, I proceeded, will the following example
give us the light we need? Just as, in estimating a
man’s health or bodily efficiency by his appearance,
one might look at his face and the lower part of his
arms and say: Come now, uncover your chest too
and your back and show them, that I may examine
you thoroughly—so the same sort of desire comes
over me in regard to our inquiry. Observing your
condition to be as you describe in respect of the
good and the pleasant, I am fain to say something
like this: Come, my good Protagoras, uncover
some more of your thoughts : how are you in regard
to knowledge? Do you share the view that most
people take of this, or have you some other? The
opinion generally held of knowledge is something
of this sort—that it is no strong or guiding or govern-

225

353

PLATO

\ ‘ a .
ovd€ cs repli ToLvovTou adtod dvtos Svavoobvrat, GAN’
4
evovons ToAAdKis avOpairr@m emoripns od Thy émt-
4 > ~ + > > »~ A A /
oTnunv adtod apyew, add’ aAXo TL, ToTe pev Ouvpdv,
A de 58 / A be Xr ta 77 de ”
Tote de yOoviv, Tore Sé Avmyv, eviore S€ Epwra,
, \ , > A , Won
moAXdkis d€ ddéBov, atexvOs Stavoovpevor mrepi THs
EmLoTI NS, WoTep Tept GvSpamddou, mepieAkopevns
¢ \ ~ »” c / SO = A ‘ af
b70 Tav d\Awy amdvtwv. ap’ obv Kat aol Towwdrdov
Tt Tept abris Soxet, 7 Kaddv re elvat 7) emorhun Kal
ofov dpxew tod avOpurov, Kal édvmep yryydoxn
tis Tayaba Kat Ta KaKd, py av KpatnOAvar bo
v. / a wv + / na a ¢ > /,
pndevds, Wate GAN’ arta mpdrrew 7) dv y emioripn
4 > iS A A / a ~
KeAedn, add’ ixavyy elvar rHv ppdvnow Bonbeiv 7h
> 7 \ a ” a \ , >
avOpimrw; Kat Soxet, bn, womep od A€yets, @
Lwxpates, Kal dua, elmep Tw GAAw, aicypov éeore
Kal é€ol codiay Kal éemuoThunv pi) ovyt mavTwr
~ ,

Kpatotov davat elvar Tay avOpwreiwy mpaypdtwr.
Ps ” Sore \ , eae Ps >
Kadds ye, edny eyed, od Aéywv Kat adnOA. oicba
on Ld ¢ \ ~ > / > , \ \ 3
obv OTL of moAKo0t THY avOpwmwv ewol TE Kat Gol od
melBovrat, aAAa modAovs pact yeyvdoKovtas Ta
, > 217 4 LP oan! a a > ‘
BéAriora odK €BéAew mpdtrew, e€ov adrois, adda
»” / QA $Y > \ > La a Ld
dAda mparrew: Kat doovs Sn eye Hpounv o Ti
mote aitidv €otTt TovTov, b70 Hdovijs hacw HTTw-

/ a” tA “a #@ = 8 \ > ‘A er e 4,
peevous 7) Avmys 7 dv viv 81) éya eAeyov bd Twos
TOUTWY KpaToupevous TAaDTa ToLEiy TOvs TrOLOdYTAS.
TloAAGa yap otwar, édn, & Udxpares, kat dAAa ovdK
> ~ , e EA 4 \ > > =
opb&s A€yovow ot avOpwro.’ "lOc 8) per’ euod
emixeipnoov meifew Tovs avOpumous Kat diddoxKew
6 é€otw adttois TodTo TO mabos, 6 dacw bro TH

~ ~ \ ~ ‘
ndovav yTTac0a. Kat od mpdtrew Sia TadTa Ta
226

PROTAGORAS

ing thing; it is not regarded as anything of that
kind, but people think that, while _a_man_often
has knowledge in him, he is not _governe j
something else—now_by_passio y RNS

pleasure, now by pain, at times by love, and often

_ they a slave, that it may be ed
‘ i T force. Now do you agree with
this -viewof ft, or do you consider that knowledge
is something noble and able to govern man, and
that whoever learns what is good and what is bad
will never be swayed by anything to act otherwise
than as knowledge bids, and that intelligence is a
sufficient succour for mankind ?

My view, Socrates, he replied, is precisely that
which you express, and what is more, it would be a
disgrace for me above all men to assert that wisdom
and knowledge were aught but the highest of all
human things.

Well and truly spoken, I said. Now you know
that most people will not listen to you and me,
but say that many, while knowing what is best, refuse
to perform it, though they have the power, and do
other things instead. And whenever I have asked
them to tell me what can be the reason of this, they
say that those who act so are acting under the
influence of pleasure or pain, or under the control
of one of the things I have just mentioned.

Yes, Socrates, he replied, I regard this as but
one of the many erroneous sayings of mankind.

Come then, and join me in the endeavour to
persuade the world and explain what is this
experience of theirs, which they call “ being over-
come by pleasure,” and which they give as the

227

PLATO

4 > A 4 > , ” A an
BéArvora, eet yryvwoKxew ye ard. tows yap av
Acyovrwr Hudv Ste odk 6pOds AEyere, d avOpwrror,
> 4 , ” 9 Mio ee > ,
aAra Wevdecbe, Epowr’ av nuds: & Ipwraydpa te

” ~ A
kal LwKpares, ei put) EoTe To’TO TO TAaOnpa 7do-
nn ¢ w~ > A , So , | en a , ,
vis WrTa00a, aAAa Ti 707’ eori, Kal Ti duets add
” eer , ‘ ss yer
gare elvar; etzatov yiv. Ti d€, & Lodxpares,
~ ~ a~ A ~ ~
det muds oxKoreicba tiv tadv Today Sd€av
> , a¢ x” , A , .
avOpwrrwv, of 6 Te av TUXwWat TobTO Aéyovow; Of-
> La a ~ a
pat, hv 8 eyed, elvai te Hiv TobTo mpos TO efeupeiv
\ ~~ ~ ~
mrepi avdpeias, mpos TaAAa pdpia Ta THs apeThs TAS
moT exel. et ov cor SoKxet eupévew ols aptt
” e ~ > A € ta e s an ”
cdofev yiv, ene tyjoacar, 4h olua av eywye
KdAduora davepov yevécbar, Erov- ei dé ur) BovAer,
~ J > ~
et cor didov, €& xaipew. “AM’, edn, dpbds
”
A€yeis* Kal mépaive womrep Hptw.

TIdA y »” > 7 > ww» € ~ , >

w Tour, Epnv eyw, el EpowTo Huds: Ti odv
gate tobro clvar, 6 yyeis yrtrw elvar Tov nove

>
edéyowev; elo.’ av eywye mpos avrods di:
A A

akovete 51° meipacducba yap tuiv ey te Kal
IIpwraydpas dpdcar. ado tt yap, & avOpwro,
date duly totdro yiyveoBa ev totade, olov mod-
AdKis b70 citwr Kai ToTav Kai adpodiciwy Kparov-
pevor O€wv OvTwr, yryvwoKovTEs OTL TOVNpG €aTW,
Gpuws atta mpatrew; Daiev dv. Odxodv éepoipel?
n > A > 4 ‘A A / A A >; 4
av avrovs eyw Te Kat od mddw: movnpa Sé adra
mh pare eivar; mérepov ore THY 7Soviy Tav¥rynvy év
TO Tapaxphua mapéxer Kal WOU eotw ExacTov
avT@v, 7 OT. eis Tov VoTEpov ypdvov voaous Te
moet Kal mevias Kat dAda tovabra moAAa zapa-
228

PROTAGORAS

reason why they fail to do what is best though
they have knowledge of it. For perhaps if we said
to them: What you assert, good people, is not
correct, but quite untrue—they might ask us:
Protagoras and Socrates, if this experience is not
“ being overcome by pleasure ” what on earth is it,
and what do you call it? Tell us that.

Why, Socrates, must we consider the opinion of
the mass of mankind, who say just what occurs to
them ?

_L fancy, I replied, that this will be a step towards
discovering how courage is related to the other parts
of virtue. So if you think fit to abide by the arrange-
ment we made a while ago—that I should lead in
the direction which seems best for elucidating the
matter—you must now follow; but if you would
rather not, to suit your wishes I will let it pass.

No, he said, your plan is quite right : go on to the
end as you began.

Once more then, I proceeded, suppose they should
ask us: Then what do you call this thing which we
described as “being overcome by pleasures”?
The answer I should give them would be this:
Please attend ; Protagoras and I will try to explain
it to you. Do you not say that this thing occurs,
good people, in the common case of a man being
overpowered by the pleasantness of food or drink
or sexual acts, and doing what he does though he
knows it to be wicked? They would admit it.
Then you and I would ask them again: In what
sense do you call such deeds wicked? Is it that
they produce those pleasures and are themselves
pleasant at the moment, or that later on they cause
diseases and poverty, and have many more such ills

229

354

PLATO

, na “ ” / > A 7 A
oxevaler; 7) Kav el TL TOUTWY Els TO VaTEpov under
4, td a
mapaoxevaler, yaipew dé pdvov moet, Guws 8° av
‘A a 4 di ~ A e ~

Kaka Hv, OTL pabdvTa xalpew ToLet Kat Omnodv;
| 3 .7 > n“ 6
dp oidpc?” av adtovs, & Ilpwraydpa, addo 71
> / ~ “~ ~
amoxpivac0a, 7) OTL oD KaTa THY adTHS THs SovAs

=~ ~ ‘
Tis mapaxphpa épyaciay Kaka eotw, aAAd dia 7a
a / / \ > 2 > ‘
Uorepov ‘yuyvopeva, vooous te Kal TaAAa. “Eya

A ” ¢ / A A an“
pev olwar, &dn 6 Ilpwraydpas, tods aoAAovs av

~ > a“ A

Tatra dmoxpivacba. Ovdxodv vdcovs moodvTa
Sof. a ~ A
dvias out, Kal mevias mowtvTa avias Trove;
¢ a *

Opodroyoiev av, ws ey@pua. Xvvedyn oO II pwr-
, > ~ U > ” ca ?
ayopas. Ovdxodv daivera, & avOpwro, tpiv, ws

> >
dapev ey te Kai [lpwraydpas, 8° oddev dAdo
Taira Kaka ovTa, 7 Sidtt eis avias Te amroteAeuTa
\ a” c ~ > ~ c A ”
Kat dAAwy Hdovav amoorepet; odpodoyotev av;
/, tc a > ~ > ~ , ” > \
Luveddxer Hiv audoiv. _ OdKobv madAw av avrovs
‘ > , : A , i a4 ¢ /
TO evavtiov et epoca: & avOpwrot ot A€yovres
Si > \ > ‘ > A > A 4, ,
ad ayaa dvapa eivar, dpa od Ta Toudde Aeyere,
Be,
olov ta Te yupvdoww Kal Tas oTparelas Kal Tas
~ ~ \
im6 trav iatpav Oepameias Tas 81a Kavoewv TE Kat
ToM@v Kat dappakei@v Kat Ayoxtovidv ‘yryvo-
A > ,
pévas, Ott Tadra ayaba pev eoTw, aviapa dé;
an ” / / s ‘ /
daiev dv; Luveddxer. drepov ody Kara 708¢
> ‘ > ‘ a 7 > cal ~ > 7
aya0a aira Kadcire, Ste ev TH Tapaxphua odvvas
. e >
Tas €oxdras mapéxer Kal dAynddvas, 7 OTL els TOV
Yarepov xpdvov byleal te am’ adr&v ylyvovrat Kat
~ ~ 7
evetiat TOV cwudtwy Kal Tv mOAcwv GwTypiat
\ > ‘ ‘ lon P a ” e De
Kal dAAwv apyal Kal mAobrow; datev av, ws éydpar.
230

PROTAGORAS

in store for us? Or, even though they have none
of these things in store for a later day, and cause
us only enjoyment, would they still be evil just
because, forsooth, they cause enjoyment in some way
or other? Can we suppose, Protagoras, that they
will make any other answer than that these things
are evil, not according to the operation of the actual
pleasure of the moment, but owing to the later
results in disease and those other ills? -

I think, said Protagoras, that most people would
answer thus.

Then in causing diseases they cause pains? And
in causing poverty they cause pains? They would
admit this, I imagine.

Protagoras agreed. °
__ Then does it seem to you, my friends, as Protagoras
and I assert, that the only reason why these things
are evil is that they end at last in pains, and deprive
us of other pleasures? Would they admit this?

We both agreed that they would.

Then again, suppose we should ask them the
opposite: You, sirs, who tell us on the other
hand that good things are painful—do you not give
such instances as physical training, military service,
and medical treatment conducted by cautery,
incision, drugs, or starvation, and say that these are
good, but painful ? Would they not grant it ?

He agreed that they would.

Then do you call them good because they produce
extreme pangs and anguish for the moment, or
because later on they result in health and good
bodily condition, the deliverance of cities, dominion
over others, and wealth? They would assent to
this, I suppose.

231

PLATO

Luveddxer. Tatra d€ ayabd éore 80 ddAo tt, 7
ott eis HOovas amoTeAevTa Kal AvTHv amadAayas
A > , a, ae , »” / /,

Te Kal amotpomds; 7 €xeTé Te GAXO TéAos Aéyew,
eis 6 amroPAéavres atdra ayaa Kadcire, aad’ <)>

ey , ‘ A 4 > bal a c > >
Hdovds te Kal A¥was; odK av dalev, Ws ey@pa.
Od’ uot Soxe?, efn 6 IIpwraydpas. Ovdxodv
A A ¢ A 7 e > \ cA a! A
Thy pev Hdovnv SwwxKere ws ayabov ov, tiv SE
Av 4, e , 7 > 5 / Tr a >
amv pevyete ws kakov; LvvedoKet. obT apa
e cal > / A , ‘ > A A
nyeto? civas Kakdv, thy Admnv, Kal ayabov THY
Hdovnv, emel Kal atro TO xaipew tore héyeTe
Kakov elvar, Orav pelovwy Adovav amooreph 7
doas avro €xet, ) AUmas pellous mapacKkevalyn TaVv
> > ~ ¢ ~ > ‘ > > v ae." A
ev avT@ Hdovav- eémet ei Kat’ dAdo tt adro TO
, A aA a ‘ > AAA /y. >
xaipew Kaxov Kadeire Kai eis aGAAo te TéAos azro-
/ ” ba ‘ Fs) 3 ~ > > >
BAébavres, Exowre av Kai iv elmeiv add’ ody
é£ete. Od euol Soxodaw, éfn 6 Ipwraydpas.
"Ao 71 ody maAw Kal Tept adrob Tob Aumetoba 6
airos tpomos; Tote Kadeire adTo TO Avmetofar
> / ev nn , 4 ~ > > A 7 A
ayabdv, orav 7 peilous AvTas TOV ev abT@ ododv
> / bal / 55 A ~ Xr ~
amadrdtrn 7) peilovs Hdovas tav AvTav mapa-
/ > A > A LAA aN > r ,
oxevaly; ézel ef mpos dAdo tt TEAos amroPAémeTE,
Lud ~ pork | A r al > , nn A a
étav Kadjre abTo TO AvTeicba ayaldv, 7 mpos 6
> A , ” c a > cal > > > 4
ey éyw, Exete tiv eimeiv- add’ ody Ec€eTe.
~ ,
"AdnOy, &dn, dAéyers, 6 Tpwraydpas. IdAw
, > > 4 ” LEN a] > LA 0
rolwuv, ednv eywd, et pe avepoisbe, & avOpwro.,
, > / 4 A ‘ 7 rE
tivos obv Symote Evexa troAAa Tepi TovTov Aéyeis
Kal moAAaxh; ovyyeyvwoKeré or, painv av e€ywye.
1 4 add. Stephanus.
232

PROTAGORAS

He agreed.

And are these things good for any other reason
than that they end at last in pleasures and relief
and riddance of pains? Or have you some other
end to mention, with respect to which you call them
good, apart from pleasures and pains? They could
not find one, I fancy.

I too think they could not, said Protagoras.

Then do you pursue pleasure as being a good
thing, and shun pain as being a bad one ?

_ He agreed that we do.

So one thing you hold to be bad—pain; and
.pleasure you hold to be good, since the very act of
enjoying you call bad as soon as it deprives us of
greater pleasures than it has in itself, or leads to
greater pains than the pleasures it contains. For
if it is with reference to something else that you
call the act of enjoyment bad, and with a view to
some other end, you might be able to tell it us;
but this you will be unable to do.

I too think that they cannot, said Protagoras. —

Then is not the same thing repeated in regard to
the state of being pained? You call being pained
a good thing as soon as it either rids us of greater
pains than those it comprises, or leads to greater
pleasures than its pains. Now if you have in view
some other end than those which I mention when
you call being pained good, you can tell it us; but
you never can. .

Truly spoken, said Protagoras.

Once more then, I proceeded; if you were to
ask me, my friends, Now why on earth do you
speak at such length on this point, and in so many
ways? I should reply, Forgive me: in the first

233

3

55

PLATO

~ A A Dy 5 ioe, > a 3 /
mp@rov pev yap ov paduov dmodeitar, tt €oTl more
TooTo, é dpets kanetre TOV Sovav qTTw elvat*
emevra, ev TovTw ciol maoat at drodetfers. adn’
éTt Kal viv dvabéoBax efeorw, el 77 eXeTe Mo Tt
pdvar elvau TO ayabov 7 7 TH Bovav, 7 i TO KaKOV
aAXo TH 7) Ty dviav, 7 apKet dpiv TO 7d€ws KaTa-
Bidvae tov Biov avev Avr ay ; ei de dpret Kat
ra exeTe pdev aAAo pdvar elvau dyabev 7 v] KaKov,
O 447) ets Tabra, TeAeuTG, TO pera TOTO dcovere.
dnt yap dpiv ToUTOU ovUTws EXovTos yeAotov Tov
Oyov yiyvecBau, 6 oTav A€ynre, 6 OTL modus ype
oKwy To. KaKd, dvOpurros, ort Kad cor, OULws
mparret aird, e€ov pu1) mparrew, b770 TeV qdovav
dydpevos Kal exrAnTTOpLEVOs . Kal av0us ad Aéyere,
ort yeyvaoKey 6 dvOpwros rayaba. mparrew ovK
eB ere dua tas mapaxpipa 7dovds, vo TovTwr
HTTepevos.

‘Os dSé Tabro, yehoid €oTt, KkarddnAov éqrat, eay
a moos OvopLact xpaeDa dpa, oer Te Kal
aviap® Kal ayala kal Kaxd, aan’ érrevd1) dvo
efavyn Tatra, dvotv Kal dvopact mpocayopevwucv
avTa, TpOTov peev ayab@ Kal KaK@, emeita adlis
det TE Kat dviapa. bépevor 57 ovrw Acyopev,
ore yeyvaoxey 6 dvOpurros Ta, Kan, ore KaKG
€oTW, Ouws avTa ToLE?. eav OdV TIS Has EpyTaL,
dua TH, HTT@peEvos, prjoope: w10 Tov; exeivos
Epnoerar yas: Hyetv be bm0 bev 2dovis obKere
efeorw etrreiv" aAAo yap dvoua peTeiAndev dyrt
Tis 7Sovijs. TO dyabov- exeivy 81) aoxpwweba Kat
Aéywpev, ort HTT pLEVvos. b70 rivos ; pre’ Too
ayabod, pjoopev v7 Ata. av obv TOxD 6 _EpoHEvOS
Has Bproris wv, yeAdoerar Kal epet 7 yeAotov
234

PROTAGORAS

place, it is not easy to conclude what it is that you
mean when you say “overcome by pleasures”’ ;
and secondly, on this point hang all our conclusions
But it is still quite possible to retract, if you can
somehow contrive to say that the good is different
from pleasure, or the bad from pain. Is it enough
for you to live out your life pleasantly, without
pain? If it is, and you are unable to tell us of any
other good or evil that does not end in pleasure or
pain, listen to what I have to say next. I tell you
that if this is so, the argument becomes absurd,
when you say that it is often the case that a man,
knowing the evil to be evil, nevertheless commits

it, when he might avoid it, because he i
an az Vv pleasures ; while on the other

hand you say that a man, knowing the good, refuses

to do quae because of the momentary pleasures by
which he is overcome.

The absurdity of all this will be manifest if we
refrain from using a number of terms at once, such
as pleasant, painful, good, and bad; and as there
appeared to be two things, let us call them by

two names—first, good and evil, and then later on,

pleasant and painful. Let us then lay it down as
our statement, that a man does evil in spite of
knowing the evil of it. Now if someone asks us:
Why? we shall answer: Because he is overcome.
By what? the questioner will ask us ; and this time
we shall be unable to reply: By pleasure—for this
has exchanged its name for “‘ the good.” So we
must answer only with the words: Because he is
overcome. By what? says the questioner. The
good—must surely be our reply. Now if our ques-
tioner chance to be an arrogant person he will laugh

235

42.

: i ~

D

356

PLATO

, ~ >
Aéyere mpGypya, ef mpdrTer Tis KaKd, yryydoKwv
OT KaKd eoTw, od Séov adbrov mpaTTeEW, HTT@pLEVvOS
¢€ \ ~ > 4] ~ > / > Ei ald +
bo Tav ayabav. dpa, djoe, ovK akiwv dvTwv
vKgv ev vuiv tov ayaldv ta Kaxd, 7 akiwv;
/ ~ id > 4 bf > af?
dyjcopev SHAov ott amoKpwopevor, STL ovK akiwv
ovTwy. od yap av e&nudpravey dv dapev aTTw
> ai ¢ A \ , , , ”
eval tTOv Oovav. Kara ti Sé, Pjoe tows,
aS ae ee > A A tale” \ \ a
avaéid €oT. tayala Tov Kakd@v 7 Ta KaKa TOV
> ~ xn > na ‘ \ , ‘
ayabav; 7 Kat’ ado tt 7 Grav Ta pev peilw, Ta
\ / eu nn / * \ > / >
dé opixporepa 4; 7) TAciw, Ta Sé eAdtTwW H; odx
o > lal »” ” lod ~ Ed /, bd
eLopev eieiv dAdo 7) TobTo. SiAov dpa, djoer, Ste
TO HTTaG0a TobTO AéyeTe, avTi eAaTTOveY ayabav
“A 4
peilw Kaka AapBdavew. Tatra pev ody ovTw.
/ 4 ‘ tee / ‘ € , A
petarAdBwpev 51) Ta dvdpata maAw TO Hdv TE. Kal
aviapov emt Tots advrois rovros, Kal A€ywuev ote
,
avOpwros mpdtre, ToTe pev eAeyowev TA KaKa,
~ > z
vov dé Aéywpev TA Gviapa, yryvoKwy Ste aviapa
cot, iTTwpevos bro Tav Adewv, SHAov ort
> / + ~ ‘ , + > , ¢ lod
avatiwy dvtwy viKav. Kal tis adAn avakia Hdov7
‘
mpos Avanv éeativ, aA 7 brepBoA} adAjAwY Kat
” ~ > > A / \ /
éMeufis; Tatra 8 eoti peilw Te Kai opiKpo-
/ > / \ / ‘ 2\ 7
Tepa yuyvoyeva aAAjAwy Kal mAciw Kai eAdtTw
Kal pGAdov Kai Arrov. ei yap Tis Aéyou ott adAa
\ /, > >> 4 A ~ SOU
Tord Siadeper, @ UedKpates, TO Tapaxphua dv
Tov eis TOV VoTEpov xpovoy Kal 75€0s Kai Avmnpod,
~ a” / xv ” ”“ Ts) ~ | Xr , e
pa@v ddAw tw, dainv av eywye, 7 HSovh Kal Avy;
> 4 ” 2’ ¢ IAA IAN’ o > A6
od yap é€of? drw dAlw. a domep ayablos
€ / 4 \ \ ¢ / ‘ 0 ‘
iordvat avOpwros, ovvbeis Ta 75a Kal ouvbeis
/ >
7a Avmnpd, Kal TO eyyds Kal TO Téppw aTHaas EV
236

PROTAGORAS

and exclaim: What a ridiculous statement, that a
man does evil, knowing it to be evil, and not having
to do it, because he is overcome by the good! Is
this, he will ask, because the good is not worthy
of conquering the evil in you, or because it is worthy ?
Clearly we must reply: Because it is not worthy;
otherwise he whom we speak of as overcome by
pleasures would not have offended. But in what
sense, he might ask us, is the good unworthy of the
bad, or the bad of the good? This can only be when
the one is greater and the other smaller, or when
there are more on the one side and fewer on the
other. We shall not find any other reason to give.
So it is clear, he will say, that-by “ being overcome ”
you mean getting the greater evil in exchange for
the lesser good. That must be agreed. Then let
us apply the terms “pleasant” and “ painful ”
to these things instead, and say that a man does
what we previously called evil, but now call painful,
knowing it to be painful, because he is overcome
by the pleasant, which is obviously unworthy to
conquer. What unworthiness can there be in
pleasure as against pain, save an excess or defect
of one compared with the other? That is, when
one becomes greater and the other smaller, or when
there are more on one side and fewer on the other,
or here a greater degree and there a less. For if
you should say: But, Socrates, the immediately
pleasant differs widely from the subsequently
pleasant or painful, I should reply: Do they differ
in anything but pleasure and pain? That is the
only distinction. Like a practised weigher, put
pleasant things and painful in the scales, and with
them the nearness and the remoteness, and tell me

VOL. IV I 237

PLATO

a!

ra ~ S83 i :
T® luy@, eimé motepa mreiw €oriv. ed prev yaps
< , A “a ne
7d€a mpos qS€a iorhs, Ta pelle det Kal mAciw'

Aqaréa: eav dé Avinpa T™pos Avmnpé, Td. eAdrre
Kal opuKporepa €av dé 78éa. mpos_ Avnpa, edy
prev 7a dveapa drepBadAnras bo Tov mdewr; eay

TE TA eyyds b1O THY TOppw edv TE TA TOPpwW 7d.

Tav eyyus, Tavryy THe mpatw TpaKTeov év av
Tar’ evi" eav O€ Ta 7a bo Tov _dueapav, ob
TpaKTéa” [Ly 7H aun EXEL, painy av, Tatra, @
avOpwror; of8’ dtu otk av Eéxouev GAAws Héyew.
Luveddxer Kai exeivw. “Ore 81) Todto ovrws
EXEL, TOOE jot dnoxpivaabe, djow. _paiverat
tpiv TH oper Ta adra peyeOn eyyvley pev peiler,
mppabev dé eAdrre: 7, ov; Dijcovow. Kai ta
maxyéa Kal Ta TroAAd WoatTws; Kal at gdwvai
<ai> toa. eyytlev prev peilovs, moppwlev Se
opuxporepat ; ater ay. Ki ody &v rovrw Hey
iy TO <b mpdrrew, év T@ Ta pev peydda Benen
Kal mpdrrew Kal ap Pdvew, TO be opuKpd Kal
gevyew Kal 1) mpdrrew, tis av pee cwrnpia.
epavyn tod Biov; dpa 7 HeTpHTUKT) TEX 4 Too
Pauvopevov Swvapus ; 7 abrn pev Huds eaAdva
Kal émolie. dvw Te Kal KaTw ToMdius petaAap-
Bavew TavTa Kal peropehew Kal év tais mpdgeat
kal év Tals aipéocot TOV peydAwy: TE Kal opiKp@v,
%) Sé perpnTiKy akupov pev av ezroinoe TodTO TO
davracpa, SnrAwoaca Sé 7d aAnfes jovxiav av
emoinoev €xew THv ux pevovoay emt TH aAnbet
kal €owoev av tov Biov; dp dv dpodroyoiev ot
1 ai add. Heindorf.
238

a

ae

PROTAGORAS

which count for more. For if you weigh pleasant
things against pleasant, the greater and the more are
sinoyate be preferred: if painful against painful, then
always the fewer and smaller. If you weigh pleasant
against painful, and find that the painful are out-
balanced by the pleasant—whether the near by the
remote or the remote by the near—you must take
that course of action to which the pleasant are ~
attached ; but not that course if the pleasant are
outweighed by the painful: Can the case be other-
wise, 1 should ask, than thus, my friends? I am
certain they could state no alternative.

To this he too assented.

Since that is the case, then, I shall say, please
answer me this: Does not the same size appear
larger to your sight when near, and smaller when
distant? They will admit this. And it is the same
with thickness and number? And sounds of equal
strength are greater when near, and smaller when
distant? They would agree to this. Now if our
welfare consisted in doing and choosing things of
large dimensions, and avoiding and not doing those
of small, what would be our salvation in life? Would
it be the art of measurement, or the power of appear-
ance? Is it not the latter that leads us astray, as
we saw, and many a time causes us to take things
topsy-turvy and to have to change our minds both
in our conduct and in our choice of great or small ?
Whereas the art of measurement would have made
this appearance ineffective, and by showing us the
truth would have brought our soul into the repose
of abiding by the truth, and so would have saved our
life. Would men acknowledge, in view of all this,

239

357

PLATO

dvOpeorror mpos Tatra Huds THY peTpyTiKyy: odlew
av TEXVN, 7 aAAny ; Tip PETPNTUKTY, copordyer.
Te 8’, €f ev TH TOO mepirrob kab dpriov aipeoet
Hpi hv 7 owrnpia Tod Biou, OmoTe TO méov
opbas édet éA€oax Kal onde 70 eAarrov, 7) 7 avro
mpos éavro 7 TO éTepov ™pos TO erepov, et?’ eyyds
cire Topp ein, Ti av éowlev je TOV Biov ; dp.
dv ovK éemoTHn; Kal dp: av ov HETpNTUKT) TIS,
emrevOnTrEp brrepBodijs TE Kal evdetas € €oTiv 7 TEXVN;
emevd7) d€ mepirtod te Kal dpriov, dpa aAAn Tis
7 dprbunrucn 5 oporoyoiev av Hiv ot avOpwrot,
] OU; "Eddxowv & av Kal T® pwraydpa. dpodoyeiv.
Kiev, é dvOpwrou: emel dé 87" mois TE kal
Avans ev 6p Oi} TH aipécer epavn piv 7 owrnpia
tod Biov ove, Tob Te méovos Kal éAdrrovos Kat
jueiLovos Kal opLuKporépov Kal ToppwTéper Kal ey~
yutépw, dpa mpayrov peev ov PETpH TUR paiverat,
trepBodfs te Kal evdelas odca Kal iodtnTos mpos
dA Aas ones ; "AM’ avdyKn. "Eel dé peTpy-
TLKT), dvdyry Sijrrou | TEXV kal emoTnen. Zup-
prjcovew. “Hris pev toivuy TeX Kal emLOT HLT
corly arn, eloadbus oxeypopeba.- Ort be Raita
eort, Toaobrov e€apKel. mpos THY amo Sek, nv
eue Set Kai Ipwraydpav dmrodeifat rept oy
mpeo®? hds. npecbe Se, pépynade, qvia
nucis aAAjAots wpodoyoduey emornuns pndev

1 mel 8¢ 8 Adam: émt 5é¢ 8) . . . émrerd? 52 Mss.

1 The intellectual control of our sense-perceptions, which
differ as to the size or number of the same things when near
and when distant, etc., has an important part in the educa-

240

PROTAGORAS

that the art which saves our life is measurement,
or some other ?

It is measurement, he agreed.

Well now, if the saving of our life depended on
the choice of odd or even, and on knowing when
to make a right choice of the greater and when of
the less—taking each by itself or comparing it with
the other, and whether near or distant—what would
save our life? Would it not be knowledge; a
knowledge of measurement, since the art here is
concerned with excess and defect, and of numeration,
as it has to do with odd and even? People would
admit this, would they not ?

/ Protagoras agreed that they would.

Well then, my friends, since we have found that
the salvation of our life depends on making a right
choice of pleasure and pain—of the more and the
fewer, the greater and the smaller, and the nearer
and the remoter—is it not evident, in the first place,
that measurement is a study of their excess and
defect and equality in relation to each other ?

This must needs be so.

And being measurement, I presume it must be an
art or science ?

They will assent to this.

Well, the nature of this art or science we shall
consider some other time !; but the mere fact of its
being a science will suffice for the proof which
Protagoras and I are required to give in answer to
the -question you have put to us. You asked it,
if you.remember, when we were agreeing? that
there is nothing stronger than knowledge, and

tional scheme of the Republic. The measuring art is further
considered in the Politicus (283 foll.). 2 Cf. 352 8 foll.

241

358

PLATO

a > A ~ 2.9 - ~ a n
elvan Kpetrrov, adda, Tobro del Kpareiv, Gmov av
ev, Kal doviis Kat TOV GAAwy amavrov* dpeis

€ 67) édhare tiv Hdoviv mroMdxis Kparetv Kal
Tod «lddtos avOpeirrov, émed7 Sé duty ody dpodo-
yodpev, peta TodTO Tipecde nas* @ Ipwrayopa
Te Kal Lewxpares, ei pa eore Tobro TO 7d Onua
7Oovijs qTTao00aL, ada Tt mor” eort Kal Tt dpeis
avTo pare elvar; elmare Hiv. e pev odv TOTe
ed0ds bpiv elropev ort dpabia, kareyehare av
per: vov dé av ypdav katayehare, kal bpav
avtav katayeAdceabe. Kat yap dpets cpo~
AoyijKare emor nuns evdela eSapaprdvew qept
TI TOV moovav aipeow kat AuTav Tovs eapiap-
Tdvovras: Tabra b€ éoTw dyaba TE Kat Kaka."
Kal od povov emLoTHUNS, aAAa Kal is TO mpdobev
ert cporoyiKare ort peTpyruciis* n dé eapiap-
Tavouevn mpatis avev emorynuns tore mov Kal
avrot ort apabia mpdrrera. worte Tobr éori
TO Hoovas yATTw elvat, ayabia 7 peyiorn: js
IIpwrayopas o5€ dnotv iarpos elvar Kai Ipodiuxos

ES / € a A ‘A A ” ” hal
kat ‘Immias. tyets 5é€ Sua TO olecbar addAo TH 7
> , > ” 2 -ys>e te ‘ e
apabiay civat ovre adrol <ire> odre tods tpe-
Tépovs taidas mapa Tovs. TovTwy SidacKdAous
Tovade Tovs cod.ioTas méumeTe, Ws od SidaKTod
+ > A / ~ > 7 ‘ > /
ovtos, aAAa Knddopevor TOG apyupiov Kal ov diddv-
Tes TOUTOLS KaK@s mpaTTeTEe Kal idia Kai Syocia.

Tatra ev trois modAois amoKxexpysévor av Tuev"
C. A A \ ns ? A > 2
buds dé 8) peta IIpwraydpov epwrd, <d>
¢€ ‘ ‘ / A A A ” c a
Inia te Kai IIpdduce—xowos yap 8) €oTw dpiv
e / / ~ ec a > ~ , bal
6 Adyos—mérepov SoK® tyiv adnOy réeyew Fj

1 tre add. Madvig. 2 6 add. Riickert.
242

a

PROTAGORAS

that knowledge, wherever it may be found, has
always the upper hand of pleasure or anything else ;
and then you said that pleasure often masters even
the man of knowledge, and on our refusing to agree
with you, you went on to ask us: Protagoras and
Socrates, if this experience is not “‘ being overcome
by pleasure,” whatever can it be, and what do you
callit? Tellus. If onthe spur of the moment we

replied, “ Ignorance,” you would have laughed
us to scorn: but now if tn Taugh at us you will
be laughing at yourselves as well. For you have
admitted that it is from defect of knowledge that
men err, when they do err, in their choice of pleasures
and pains—that is, in the choice of good and evil ;
and from defect not merely of knowledge but of the
knowledge which you have now admitted also to be
that of measurement. And surely you know well
enough for yourselves that the erring act committed
without knowledge is done through ignorance.
Accordingly “ to be overcome by pleasure ’’ means
just this—ignorance in the highest degree, which
Protagoras here and Prodicus and Hippias profess
to cure. But you, through supposing it to be some-
thing else than ignorance, will neither go yourselves
nor send your children to these sophists, who are the
teachers of those things—you say it cannot be
taught; you are chary of your money and will
give them none, and so you fare badly both in
private and in public life.

Such would have been our answer to the world at
large. And I ask you now, Hippias and Prodicus,
as well as Protagoras—for I would have you make a
sone reply—whether you think what I say is true
or false.

243

PLATO

pevdeobar. “Yrrepgudis edoxer & amracw adn Oi elvat
Ta. eipneva. ‘Opodoyeire dpa, ay 3 eyo, 78
prev 78d ayalov eivar, TO S€ aviapov KaKov. TV
d€ Ilpodixov robde Siaipeow Ta&v dvoudtrwv Tap-
awTodpat: elite yap 700 eire TEpTVvoV Aéyets etre
xaprov, elre o7d0ev Kat o7ws xaipers 70. Tovabra
ovopnalowv, @ Bédrwore IIpdduxe, TobTO row. 7pos
6 BovAopar amdéxpwa. LeAdoas obv 6 IIpddixos
ovvepordynoe, Kal ot d\Aor. Ti d€ 5, & avdpes,
ebay eye, TO Touvoe ; ai émi tovrou mpagers
dmaca, emt Tod aAvmws oy Kal _7€us, dp’ od
Kadai [kal wdéAyot']; Kal to Kaddov Epyov
dyabov Te Kal wdéeAuov; Luveddoxer. Ei apa,
epyy € ey, TO HOD ayabdv éorw, ovdeis ovTe cidds
ovTE oldjLevos aAAa Bedriw elva, 7 7 & move,” Kat
Suvard,” evreiTra. Trovet Tavra, efov Ta. Berio ovoe
TO WTTw elvar adtob dAXo tt Tobr’ eotiv 7 apabia,
ovde KpeitTw éavtod GAXo tt 7 aodia. Luv-
eddKeEL méow. Ti be 87); dyaBiay dpa To Towovde
Aéyere, TO pevdh exew do€av Kal epedoOar mepl
Tov Tpaypatwv ta&v moAAob akiwv; Kat tobro
maou ouvedoxet. “AMo TL ovv, ebqy EY, emi
ye Ta. Kaka ovdels € EK@V EpXeTat ovde € emt a oleTae
KaKa elvan, 008" €oTt TobTo, Ws Eoukev, ev dvOpesrrov
voce, emt & oleTas KaKa ‘elvan COdNew. tévos dyri
tov ayabav: drav te avayKacOA dvoiv Kaxoiv To

1 cai &Péduwor sec]. Schleiermacher.
2 rovet Heindorf : ézroiec Mss.
3 Suvard Schleiermacher: dvvara: Mss.

- “ Yielding to oneself” and ‘mastery of onesélf ” are
here put instead of ‘‘being overcome by pleasure” and

244

PROTAGORAS

They all thought what I had said was absolutely
true.

Then you agree, I continued, that the pleasant is
good and the painful bad. And let me entreat
my friend Prodicus to spare me his distinction of
terms: for whether you say pleasant or delightful
or enjoyable, my excellent Prodicus, or in whatever
style or manner you may be pleased to name these
things, pray reply to the sense of my question.

At this Prodicus laughed and consented, as did the
rest.

Well now, my friends, 1 said, what of this? All
actions aimed at living painlessly and pleasantly
are honourable, are they not? And the honourable
work is both good and useful ?

They agreed.

Then if, I proceeded, the pleasant is good, no one
who has knowledge or thought of other actions as
better than those he is doing, and as possible, will
do as he proposes if he is free to do the better ones ;
and this yielding to oneself is nothing but ignorance,
and mastery of ' oneself is as certainly wisdom.

They all agreed.

Well then, by ignorance do you mean haying a
false opinion and being deceived about matters of
importance ?

They all agreed to this also.

Then surely, I went on, no one willingly goes
after evil or what he thinks to be evil; it is not
in human nature, apparently, to do so—to wish to
go after what one thinks to be evil in preference
to the good ; and when compelled to choose one of

the opposite state. The conflict between the better and
worse self is discussed in Rep. iv. 430 f& foll.

VOL. IV 12 245

359

PLATO

er ec ~ > ‘ ‘ a tv cy oh
ETepov atpeicbar, oddels TO peilov aipnoerar e&ov
to €Aatrov. “Amavra Tatra ouveddxer amacw
piv. Ti obv; ednv eyw, Kadeiré <u> dSéos
\ t , 4 ¢ Bee: \ Sv
Kat doBov; Kal dpa omep eyw; mpos oe Aéyw,
Ilpdduce. mpoodoxiav twa A€yw KaKkod Tobro,
elre ddPov elite S€os Kadeire. "EddKer pwr-
/ A ‘ | ve P) , ‘ , ty
aydpa pev Kal ‘Immia déos re Kat PdBos elvar
tovro, IIpodikw dé Séos, PdBos 8 ov. *AAN
ovdev, ednv eyed, Ipdduce, Siaddper adda rdde.
4 we ~ ‘ ” La > , ? 7
ef GAnOA Ta eumpoobey eorw, dpa tis avOpwrwy
2 s 24 ~ 22 a t EN 24.8)
eAjoe emi tabra lévar a Sédocxev, efov emi a
HH; 1 advvatov ek THY wuoroynuévwv; a yap
Sédouev, Wpodroynrar yyetoba Kaka elvary a dé
Hyetrar Kaka, oddéva ovTe lévar emt Tadra ovTe
AapBavew éxovta. "EKdoxe kal tatra mdow.
uA A 4 ¢ , > > 4
Ottrw 8) Todtrwv troxepevwv, Fv 8 eya,,
/ , \ ai { , > mn , 6 ¢ 7
IIpddiuné te Kat ‘Inia, amodoyeicbw juiv Hpwr-:
ayopas Gd¢, & TO mp@rov amexpivaro, TAs 6p0as
éxer, 17) & TO mp@rov mavrdmaci ToTe ev yap
57) mévre OvTwv popiwy Tis apetas oddev Edn
‘ id ‘ 4 3O7 \ ¢ Aa
elvar TO €repov olov 7rd €repov, idtav Se adrod
éxacrov éxew Stvauw: add’ od tabira Aéyw, GAN
& 70 Borepov ele. TO yap vorepov ey TA per
TérTapa eémeKk@s tapamAjoa adAdArjdAos elva,
To Sé€ &v mavu Todd Siadepew tav adAdAwy, TH,
> , / : 4 ¢ a :
avdpelav, yrwocoOar Sé pv edn TeKunpiw THde-
edpyces yap, & Lw«pares, avOpwmovs avoowrd-
1 + add. Heindorf.
246

PROTAGORAS

two evils, nobody will choose the greater when he
may the lesser.

All this met with the assent of everyone.

Well, I said, is there something you call dread, or
fear? ‘And is it—I address myself to you, Prodicus
—the same as I have in mind—something I describe
as an expectation of evil, whether you call it fear
or dread ?

Protagoras and Hippias agreed to this description
of dread or.fear; but Prodicus thought this was
dread, not fear.

No matter, Prodicus, I said, but my point is this :
if our former statements are true, will: any man
wish. to go after what he dreads, when he may
pursue what he does not? Surely this is impossible
after what we have admitted—that he regards as
evil that which he dreads? And what is regarded
as evil is neither pursued nor accepted willingly,
we saw, by anyone.

Here also they were all in agreement.

So much, then, being granted, Prodicus and
Hippias, I said, let our friend Protagoras vindicate
the correctness of the answer he made at first—
not that which he made at the very beginning,!
when he said that, while there were five parts of
virtue, none of them was like any other, but each
had its particular function: I do not refer to that,
but the statement he made afterwards,? when he
proceeded to say that four of them had a consider-
able resemblance to each other, but one was quite
different from the rest—courage ;. and he told me I
should perceive this by the following token: You
will find, Socrates, said he, that men may be most

1 Cf. 330 a foll; Cf. 349 p foll.
247

PLATO

A + ‘ > s ‘ > . o
Tous péev OvTas Kal adiukwrTdtous Kal dKxoAaoTo-
, ‘ > , > , PEE «
Tdtous Kal aualeordtous, avdpevotdrouvs Sé- @
yreoer OTL TOAD Siadeper 4 avdpeia TH dAAwv po-
plwy THs apeTis. Kat éeyw edOds Tore Tay
avuaca tiv amdoxpiow, Kal ert padAov erred?)
tadra pel” dtudv SueEAADov. jpounv 8 ody
Tobrov, ef Tovs avdpeiovs Adyou Pappaddous: 6 Se,
\ » > » L SS) opgod pi
kal tras y’, €bn. peuvynoa, hv 8 éyd, d Tpwr-
tf ~ > , c , ” 7
aydpa, Tatra amoxpwopevos; ‘Quordyer. “16. 37,
” > 7 ; ee aes, Dae » aah, | , , mw 4
ednv eyo, elme tiv, emt ti A€yets tras elvar Tods
avdpetous; 4 ed’ amep ot Sevdoi; Odw edn. Ovdx-
otv ed? érepa. Nai, 7 8 ds. Tldrepov of pev
SevAol emi Ta Oappadrdéa Epyovrar, ot 5é avdpetoe eri
A , / /, > LA 4 Gh 5A
7a Sewad; Aéyerar 64, @ Lewk«pates, ovTws b70
tov avOpdrwv. °AdnOA, ednv eyo, A€yers: GAN’ od
~ > ~ > \ \ > 4 / A Ww 4
ToUTO épwr@, aAAa avd emi Ti pis tras elvar Tods
2 iz ma tilorss ‘ 4 ¢ , ‘
avdpeious; dp emi ta Sewd, tyovpévous Seva
> af >
elvar, ) emt ta uy; “AAAa tobTd y’, Edy, ev ols ad
wv a , > 7 »” if > vA
éXeyes Tots Adyous amedelyOn apt ote advvarTor.
Kat todro, éfnv eye, dAnbes déyeis: wor’ ei TobTO
> ~ > , > A a A ¢ a
dpbds daredeixOn, emi pev a Sewa Hyetror elvar
> \ ” > A ee > ¢ ~ e /
ovdels Epyerau, emred7) TO HTTW Elvat EavTOdD HipeOy
dpabia odca. ‘Quodrdye. *AAa pay emi a ye
Bappodo. mavtes ad epxovrat, Kat Sedoi Kal
a ‘A FY »”
avdpetor, Kat TavTn ye emt TA adTa EpyovTat ot
a A , ” _
Seto te Kat of avdpetor. "AAAa pevror, edn, d
ey > \ \
Laé«pates, Tav ye Tobvavtiov €oTw emi a ot Te
248

PROTAGORAS

unholy, most unjust, most dissolute, and most
ignorant, yet most courageous; whence you may
judge that courage is very different from the other
parts of virtue. His answer caused me great sur-
prise at the moment, and still more when I went
into the matter with your help. But anyhow, I
asked him whether by the brave he meant “ bold.”
Yes, he replied, and impetuous. Protagoras, I
said, do you remember making this answer ?
He admitted he did. .

Well now, I said, tell us, towards what do you
mean they are impetuous when they are courageous ?
Towards the same things as cowards ?

No, he said.

_ Then towards other things ?

Yes, he said.

Do cowards go after things that allow boldness,
and the courageous after dreadful things?

So people say, Socrates.

- Quite true, I said. But my point is rather,
towards what, according to you, are the brave
impetuous? Dreadful things, in the belief that
they are dreadful, or towards what is not dreadful ?

No, he said; the former has just been shown, by
the arguments you put forward, to be impossible.

Quite true again, I said; so that if this proof
was correct, no one goes to meet what he regards
as dreadful, since to be overcome by oneself was
found to be ignorance.

He admitted this.

And yet all men go also to meet what they can face
boldly, whether cowardly or brave, and in this respect
cowardly and brave go to meet the same things.

But still, Socrates, he said, what cowards go to

249

360

PLATO

Seiroi Epyovrar Kal of dvBpetor. adrixa els Tov
mOAepov ot wev eOédovaw i€vat, of Sé odk eOédAovaw.
Ilorepov, Ednv éeyw, Kadov dv iévar } aloxpdv;
Kadov, é6n. Ovdxodv eimep xaddv, kal dyabdv
@poroyjcapev ev Tots Eumpoobev. ras yap Kaas
mpages amdoas dyabds cporoyjoapev. "AAnOF
Aéyews, Kai det Epouye Soke? ottrws. "Opbds ye,
édnv é€yw. adda morépous gis eis Tov méAEuov
oux €Oédew iévat, Kadov ov Kal dyabov; “Tods
detAovs, 7 8’ 6s. Ovdxodv, Hv 8 eyds, etrep Kadov
Kat ayabdv, Kat 750; ‘Quodrdyntar yodv, edn.
"Ap obdv yuyvdoKovres of Setdot odK €bédovow
i€vas emit To KadAAdv' te Kal duewov Kal Hdi0v;
"AMAa Kai toiro éav cpodroydmev, én, Sia-
Pbepotpev tas eumpoobev opodroyias. Ti 8 6
avdpetos; ovK emt TO KddAdv Te Kal duewov Kai
ydvov épyerar; *AvayKn, edn, ouodoyetv. Odxodv
GAws of avdpeior od aicxpovs doBovs doPodvrat,
étav doPdvrar, ovdé aicxypa Odppn Oappodow;
"AdnOA, edn. Ei 5€ pn alcypd, dp’ od Kada;
‘Quoddyer. Ei dé xadd, cai ayabd; Nai. Ovdx-
obv Kai ot SetAol Kal of Opaceis Kai of pawdpevor
rovvaytiov aiacxpovs te dPovs doBodvrat Kal
1 x4d\\cdv Stephanus: xaddév Mss,
250

PROTAGORAS

meet is the very opposite of what the courageous
go to meet. For instance, the latter are willing
to go to war, but the former are not.

Is going to war an honourable thing, I asked, or a
base thing ?

Honourable, he replied.

Then if it is honourable, we have admitted, by
our former argument, that it is also good; for we
agreed that all honourable actions were good.

_ True, and I abide by that decision.

You are right to do so, I said. But which sort of
men do you say are not willing to go to war, that
being an honourable and good thing to do?

The cowardly, he replied.

' Then, I went on, if it is honourable and good, is it
also pleasant ?

That certainly has been admitted, he said.

‘Now do the cowards wittingly refuse to go to what
is more honourable, better, and pleasanter ?

Well, if we admit that too, he replied, we shall
undo our previous admissions.

But what of the courageous man? Does he not go
to the more honourable and better and pleasanter?

I am forced to admit that, he said.

Now, in general, courageous men do not feel base
fears, when they fear, nor is there anything base in
their boldness ?

True, he said.

And if not base, then it must be honourable ?

He admitted this.

_ And if honourable, then good ?

“Yes.

And the cowardly and the bold and the mad, on
the contrary, feel base fears and base boldness ?

251

PLATO

> ‘ , ~ e /, ~
atoxpa Odppn Bappotow; ‘Quoddye. Oappodar
dé 7a alcypa Kal Kaka 8” do m1 H 8 a&yvoray
Kat duabiav; Odtrws éxer,édn. Tiobtv; rtobro 8’
6 detroit eiow of Setdoi, SeAiav 7 avOpetav Kadeis;
AciAiav eywy’, én. Aewdoi S€ od Sia tiv Tdv
dewav auabiav éddvncay dvres; lav y’, edn.
Ata ravrny dpa thy apabiar SeAol eiow; “Qpoddyer.
Av’ 6 8€ SeAot cio, SeAia dpodoyetrat mapa aod;
Luvédyn. Ovdxodv 7 Tdv Sewdv Kai pr) Sewdv
auabia Seria av ein; “Enévevoev. “AMG ppv,
jv 8 ey, evavriov avdpeia Serig. “Edn.
OdKoiv 7 Ta&v Sewav Kai wh Sewdv codia evavria

~ , > , > , ‘ > ~ ” > ,
Th TovTwy auabia eoriv; Kat évraifa er émévev-
cev. ‘H 5€ rodrwv auabia SetAia; Lavy poyis év-
tatla emévevoev. ‘“H aodia apa tr&v Sewav Kai

A ~ > / > , + ENG id = ~ tA
py) Seww@v avdpeia eoriv, éevavtia obca TH TOUTWwY
dpabia; Odxérs evratéa obr’ emwetoar 70éAncew
€olya te* Kai eye elrov: Ti 84, & IIpwraydpa,

252

PROTAGORAS

He agreed.

Do they feel base and evil boldness solely through
stupidity and ignorance ?

Just so, he said.

Well now, the cause of cowards being cowardly,
do you call this cowardice or courage ?

Cowardice, I call it, he replied.

_ And were they not found to be cowards through
ignorance of what is dreadful ?

_ Certainly, he said. ;

-And so they are cowards because of that
ignorance ?

He agreed.

And the cause of their being cowards is admitted
by you to be cowardice ?

He assented.

Then ignorance of what is dreadful and not
dreadful will be cowardice ?

He nodded assent.

But surely courage, I went on, is the opposite of
cowardice.

Yes.

Then the wisdom that knows what is and what is not
dreadful is opposed to the ignorance of these things?

To this he could still nod assent.

And the ignorance of them is cowardice ?

To this he nodded very reluctantly.

So the wisdom that knows what is and what is
not dreadful is courage, being opposed to the
ignorance of these things ?

Here he could no longer bring himself to nod
agreement, and remained silent. Then I proceeded :
Why is it, Protagoras, that you neither affirm nor
deny what I ask you?

253

361

PLATO

ovTe ad drjs & epwrd ovre anddns; Adrés, &dn,
mépavov. “Ev yy’, édnv éeyd, pdovov épdjevos
ETL G€, El Gor WoTEp TO mp@Tov ert SoKodow elvai
twes avOpwror auabéoraro pév, avdperoraro. Sé.
Dirovixeiv pro, &by, Soxeis, & LdKpares, To
ewe elva Tov amoKpwdopevov' yapioduat odv got,
Kat Aéyw ote ex TOV Hpodroynuevww advvarov por
Soke? elvar.

Otro, jv 8 ey, dAdov &vexa epwrd mavra
Tatra, } oKéetacba BovrAdpevos, ms mor’ exer TA
MEpt THS apeTns Kal Ti mot ect adrd, % apery.
olda yap 67. tovTov davepod yevouévov pador

nn“ / / > ~ ‘ aS 7 ‘
av KatddnAov yévoito éexeivo, epi od ey Te Kal

av pakpov Adyov éxdrepos ameTeivamev, ey jev
Aéywv ws od SidaKxrov apetn, ad 8 ws Swdaxror.
Kat pot Soxet udv % apt. eEod0s ta&v Adywv
@omep avOpwros Karnyopetv te Kal Katayeddv,
kai et dwryv AdBou, cizeiv dv Ste dromol y’ éaré,
& Leék«pates re kai Towraydpa: od pev AE€ywv
ort od SiWaKrdv eotw apeT? ev Tois eumpoober,
vov geauT®@ Tavavtia omevdes, emixeipOv amodeteat
Ws TaVvTA Xpypara eoTiv émoTHun, Kal 7 Suxaroovvn
Kai 7 wppoovvn Kal 7 avdpeia, @ tpomw udAor’
dv daxrov davein 7 aperyn: ef ev yap addo Tt
qv émorhun n dpety, womep Ipwraydpas
evrexeiper A€yew, cadds odK av Fv SiSaKxrdv- viv
dé et pavijcerar emoTin SAov, ws ad omeddeis, @
LwdKpates, Pavydorov Eorat p27) Sidaxrov dv. Ipwr-

aydpas 8 ad Sidaxrdv tote trobduevos viv

Touvavtiov €oike omevdovtt, oAtyou mavTa waAAov
gavivas abto 7 éemortiunv. Kal ovTws av qKLoTa

254

PROTAGORAS

Finish it, he said, by yourself.

_ I must first ask you, I said, just one more question;

Do you still think, as at the beginning, that there
are any people who are most ignorant and yet most
courageous ?

I see, Socrates, you have set your heart on making
me your answerer ; so, to oblige you, I will say that
by what we have admitted I consider it impossible.

My only motive, I then said, in aski

questions has been a desire to examine the various
relations of virtue and its own special nature, _ For I

know that, were it once made plain, that Other 7 42
question on which you and I have

argued at such

on either side— J
enying that virtue can be taught—would he cleared
up satisfactorily. Our discussion, in its present
result; Stems to me as though it accused and mocked
us like some human person; if it were given a
voice it would say: ‘‘ What strange creatures you |
are, Socrates and Protagoras! You on the one hand,
after having said at first that virtue cannot be taught,
are now hot in opposition to yourse i
rove j
temperance, and courage—which is t¢
make virtue appear teachable: for if virtue were
an ything n knowledge, as Protas 2 tried
to make out, obviously it would not be teachable ;
but if as a matter of fact it turns out to be entirely
knowledge, as you urge, Socrates, I shall be surprised
if it is not teachable. Protagoras, on the other hand,
though at first he claimed that it was teachable,
now seems as eager for the opposite, declaring that
it has been found to be aiioet say thing but know-
ledge, which would make it quite unteachable ! ”

255

?

362

PLATO

” , >
etn Sidaxrov: éeyw odv, & Ilpwraydpa, mavra

Tatra Kabop&v dvw Katw taparropeva Sewds,
macav mpobvuiay éyw xatadavy atta yeveoOat,
Kai Bovdoiuny av raira SueeADovras tds é€eA-
Beiv kat emi ri dperny 6 Tu €or, Kal maAw emoKeé-
pacbar rept adrod, etre Sidaxrov etre py SidaKrov,
pe) moAAdKis Huds 6 "Emyunfeds exeivos Kat ev TH
oxéer odijAn e€aratioas, womep Kal ev TH Sia-
vouy HueAnoev Hud, ws dis ov. npecev ody jor
Kat ev T@ pv0w 6 Ipopnbeds padAov tod *Em-
pnbews: B xpdpevos eye kat mpounbovdpevos rep
tot Biov rob euavTod mavros mdvTa TadTa mpay-
parevoua, Kal «i od ebéAots, omrep Kal Kat’ apxas
éAeyov, peta ood av joiora Taira owSiacKoroiny,
Kal 6 Hpwrayépas, "Eyw per, én; ® Uadkpares,
emaw@ gov 7 mpobupiav Kat id Siefodov Tov
Aéywv. Kal yap ore ta\Aa olpae KaKOS elvat
dvOpwrros, PHovepos TE WKwor” dvOparmam, émel Kal
mept aod mpds troAAovs 87) cipyKa, Ort Ov evrvyxdven
TOAD padora dyopat oé, TOV pev TAuKovroov Kal
mavu: Kal dey ye ort ovdk av Bavudloum, et THY
éMoyipov yévoto avdpav émt codia. Kat mept
TovTw dé cloabOis, drav BovAn, SieEyev’ viv F
pa 760 Kat én’ GAXo Tt TpérecOar. *AAN’, Hv
eye, oUTw xp) move, €l got Soxet. Kal yap €wot
olmep ednv tévan wdAar dpa, add KaddAtig 7h KadG
yapildjrevos mrapeuewa. tabr’ eimdvres Kai axov-
vi
GavTes Amer.

256

PROTAGORAS

Now I, Protagoras, observing the extraordinary
tangle into which we have managed to get the whole
matter, am most anxious to have it thoroughly
cleared up. And I should like to work our way
through it until at last we reach what virtue is,
and then go back and consider whether it is teach-
able or not, lest perchance your Epimetheus beguile-
and trip us up in our investigation as he overlooked
us in your account of his distribution. I like the
Prometheus of your fable better than the Epime-
theus ; for he is of use to me, and I take Promethean
thought continually for my own life when I am
occupied with all these questions; so, with your
consent, as I said at the beginning, I should be
delighted to have your aid in the inquiry.

I approve your zeal, Socrates, said Protagoras,
and the way you develop your arguments; for I
think I am not ill-natured, and I am the last person
on earth to be envious. Indeed I have told many
people how I regard you—as the man I admire far
above any that I meet, and as quite an exception
to men of your age; and I say I should not be
surprised if you won high repute for wisdom. We
shall pursue the subject on some other occasion, at
your pleasure: for the present, it is time to turn to
another affair.

I quite agree, said I, if you think so: for I was long
ago due to be where I told you I was going; I
stayed merely to oblige our excellent Callias.

Here our colloquy ended, and each went his way.

1 Cf. 321 c.
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INTRODUCTION TO THE MENO

Tue Meno takes up the question which the Prot-
agoras left waiting for an answer—Can virtue be
taught? This dialogue proceeds in the direct
dramatic form, without descriptive introduction or
connecting narrative, and in a series of five scenes we
are shown the various resources of Socratic method
in a determined attempt to solve that important
problem. Thus (1) (70 a-80 p) we find that the first
requisite for progress in the search is a definition of,
virtue ; (2) (80 p-86 c) the inquiry is shifted to the
origin of knowledge, which is demonstrated, by an
experiment on one of Meno’s young attendants, to
be latent in us, and recoverable by the proper stimu-
lation of our memory ; (3) (86 c-90 8) we return to
the question of what virtue is, and while it appears
to be teachable we are faced with the awkward
fact that it has no real teachers—it is not taught ;
(4) (90 8-95 a) Anytus, the typical man of affairs, is
convicted of error in his reliance on convention and
common sense; and lastly (5) (95 a-100 B) Socrates
discusses with Meno the relation of knowledge, in
which virtue must somehow consist, to the true
opinion which guides practical men along the right
path in everyday life.

The first two of these scenes are preparatory :
they point out that by some means or other we must

260

INTRODUCTION TO THE. MENO

obtain a definition of the thing itself—virtue—on
which our inquiry is bent, and then we are given a
specimen of the method by which we are most likely
to acquire such a piece of real knowledge. With
these two lessons in mind, we return to the question
as it stood at the end of the Protagoras, and come to
grips once more with that great defaulter—the
received system of education. The only hope of
finding our way to the truth for which we are grop-
ing seems to lie in a study of the instinctive opinion
which occasionally guides men of superior character
to the right course of action, and in a comparison
of this “‘ inspired” thought—which has helped us
already (81) towards the educational principle of
“ recollection ’’— with the reasoned knowledge
which we may look to as an abiding and unfailing
support to ourselves and as a power that we can
transmit to others.

The sane and profound wisdom which moves
beneath the whole discussion is as remarkable as
the clearness and acuteness of its argumentation.
The detection of insufficiency in existing modes of
instruction, and the recognition of rightness in
certain high examples of conduct, are marked by a
gentle humour and a breadth of vision and sympathy
which doubtless distinguished the actual Socrates :
the purpose to which those points are applied—of
turning our gaze to a higher level of education and
a surer basis of all thought and action—is derived
indeed from the Master, but brought into full
flower, with promise of later fruit, by the personal
ardour and art of Plato. We feel the splendid
determination of a new master-mind ; and although
his attempt at a deeper probing of the question has

261

INTRODUCTION TO THE MENO

to be given up for the present without an answer,
we are subtly prepared for the ambitious elaboration
and demonstration of the Republic and the Phaedo.
Besides this main impression, the Meno has many
subsidiary interests. The sophists Protagoras and
Gorgias are referred to with respect, though their
teaching is proved to be seriously defective. We
find here (81) perhaps the first, because so tentative
and diffident, statement in Plato of the soul’s
experience of previous existence, and its present
possession of a sort of latent or suppressed knowledge
of general notions, which has to be elicited and
revived by methodical inquiry. We have also (79)
an account of the effect of Socrates’ conversations
upon his disciples, which is a useful counterpart
and complement to the excited rhapsody of Alci-
biades in'the Symposium (215) ; while the humorous,
mystifying modesty of Socrates in ascribing his
highest beliefs to converse with poets, priests, and
priestesses (81) is of a piece with his manner in the
Symposium and elsewhere. Finally we should notice
the suddenness of Anytus’ appearance on the scene,
and his abrupt exit: remembering that he was
afterwards the accuser of Socrates, and observing
the language and tone of his warning to that reckless
critic of the democracy, we must conclude that
Plato contrived the episode with the deliberate
purpose of showing that he did not blame any
single person for his beloved Master’s death, but
cherished a nobler grudge against a world that was
politically and intellectually out of joint. He thus
brings us almost unawares to the edge of the rift
which was opening in his mind between philosophy
and the ordinary life of affairs: we see it gaping

262.

INTRODUCTION TO THE MENO

wide and grim in the Gorgias; when we come to
the Republic, it is a well-known gulf, to be carefully
measured and mapped.

Meno was a young Thessalian of noble and
wealthy family. He is supposed here to be on a
visit to Athens about 402 B.c., three years before
the death of Socrates. He has acquired some
literary and scientific knowledge by association with
Gorgias, who spent his last few years in Thessaly.
He took part as a general in the great march of the
Ten Thousand with Cyrus in 401 s.c. Xenophon
depicts him in the Anabasis as greedy, self-seeking
and treacherous. Plato shows us his pleasanter
side, though we find here that he is rather conceited
and lacking in self-control (76 a, 80 B, c, 86 p).

The Meno has been edited, with ample introduc-

tion and notes, by E S. Thompson (Macmillan,
1901).

263

St. II.

p. 70

MENQN

[H EPI APETHS* MEIPASTIKOZ]

TA TOT ATAAOTOT ITPOZQITA

MENON, 2OKPATHS, MAIS MENQNOS, ANTTOS

MEN. “Exets jo ciety, ® Leixpares, 4, dpa b:3a-
KTOv % apeTn; 7 od SiwdaKxrov aAr aoxynrov;. 7
ovre doKnrov ovTe pabyrov, add. prot Tmapa-
yiyverat Tots dvOpesrrous 7) 7 ddAw TWl TpOTTH ;

x2. "QO Mévwv, mpd Tob pev Oerradrol eddoKYLOL
Hoav é ev Tols “EAAnyot Kal edavpdlovro ep’ inmuxy
Te Kat mrAovTw, viv Sé, ws euol SoKet, Kal emi
copia, Kat ody HKLoTA of Tob Gob éraipov “Api-
otinmov moXtra Aapicaioc. Tovrou be bpiv
airs ore be opyias: dducdpevos yap «is TH
mohw epaoras emt copia € iAngev "Adevaddv TE
TOUS mposTous, dv 6 aos épacris €orw “Aptor-
Lmm0S, Kal Tav aAAwy Werraddv: Kat 8) Kal
TovTO TO bos buds ciOixev, addoBws Te Kat peyado-
mpen@s amoxpivec0ar, edv tis TL EpyTat, worrep
eiKos Tovs €lddTas, are Kal adtos mapéxwv adbrov
epwrdv tav “EAAjvav 7 Bovdropévm 6 Te av Tis
BovAnra, Kal oddevi 6rw odK aGmoKpwdpevos. €V-
264

MENO
[or ON VIRTUE: restina]

CHARACTERS

Meno, Socrates, Mreno’s Boy, Anytus

meN. Can you tell me, Socrates, whether virtue
can be taught, or is acquired by practice, not teach-
ing? Or if neither by practice nor by learning,
whether it comes to mankind by nature or in some

other way ?
soc. Meno, of old the Thessalians were famous
and admired among the Greeks for their riding and
their riches ; but now they have a name, I believe,
for wisdom also, especially your friend Aristippus’s
people, the Larisaeans. For this you have to thank
Gorgias ; for when he came to that city he made
the leading men of the Aleuadae—among them
your lover Aristippus—and the Thessalians generally
enamoured of wisdom. Nay more, he has given
you the regular habit of answering any chance
question in a fearless, magnificent manner, as befits
those who know: for he sets the example of offering
himself to bé questioned by any Greek who chooses,
and on any point one likes, and he has an answer
for everybody. Now in this place, my dear Meno,
265

7)

PLATO

Od8e dé, @ pire Mévwyr, 70 evaytiov TEpLEaTHKEV*
Womep avxy.ds tls Tis oodias yeyovev, Kal Kw-
Suveder eK Tavb_ Tav TOTaV Tap" buds otxeoBat
% copia «i yoov Twa €BéAeus ouTws épeoban TOV
evOdde, oddels doris od yeAdoerau kat epet> @
féve, Kudvvevoo cou Soxeiy jascdpids Tis elvat,
dperhy yobv etre Sidaxrov el?” 6tw TpdTw Tapa
ylyverau <tdevau" eyw dé TooovTOV déw cire
didaxrov etre pr) Sidaxrov eidévar, dar’ ovdé ado,
6 Tt ToT €oTl TO Tapdmay apeTH, TUyydvw €idws.
°E: \ > ‘ > / - M / Ld mM” .

ya) obv Kai adres, & Meévwv,; ottws exw" ovp-
mévopat Tots moXitais TovTov To’ mpdyparos, Kal
e“avTov KaTapeudopar ws ovdK €lOws TEpl apeETis
TO Tapdmav’ 6 d€ p21) olda Ti éot1, m@s av Omotov

/ > / na ” / bid
yé tu eideinv; 7 SoKet cor oldv re eclvas, dotis
Méevwra pa) yryymoKes TO Tmapdmay Gotis €oTi;

~ 907 ” 4 ” tA ” ‘
Tovrov ¢eidévar cite Kadds cite mAovowos eiTE Kai
yevvaids €oTw, cite Kal Tavavtia TovTwy; SoKei

>
gou olov T elva;

MEN. Odx Euouye. ddA. ov, @ Ledsnpares,
dn das od’ 6 Te apety eotw olcba, adda Tabra
mepi cod Kal olkade dmayyeMrwper ;

=a. M7 povov ye, @ éraipe, aa Kat Ore odd”
aw mw evérvyov €iddtt, ds epol boxd.

MEN. Ti 5€; Topyia odk evérvyes Gre evOdde
Weeiy
za. "Eywye.

MEN. Eira ov« €d0Ket cou eidevat;

> / 77 7 > tA ¢ 7

Od mdvv cipi prjpwr, &d Mevwr, wore

ovK €xw cimely ev TH TapdvTt, THs pou ToTE
” > > ” > af > ‘ ‘ a
edofev. ard” tows éxeivos te olde, Kal ov a

a > ~ ”
exeivos EAcyev’ avduvycov obtv pe, mas EAcyev.

266

MENO

we have a contrary state of things: a drought of
wisdom, as it were, has come on; and it seems as
though wisdom had deserted our borders in favour of
yours. You have only to ask one of our people a
question such as that, and he will be sure to laugh
and say: Stranger, you must think me a specially
favoured mortal, to be able to tell whether virtue
can be taught, or in what way it comes to one: so
far am I from knowing whether it can be taught or
not, that I actually do not even know what the _
thing itself, virtue, is at all. a
' And I myself, Meno, am in the same case; I
share my townsmen’s poverty in this matter: I
have to reproach myself with an utter ignorance about
virtue ; and if I do not know what a thing is, how
ean I know what its nature may be? Or do you
imagine it possible, if one has no cognisance at all
of Meno, that one could know whether he is hand-
some or rich or noble, or the reverse of these ?
Do you suppose that one could ?
. MEN. Not I. But is it true, Socrates, that you
do not even know what virtue is? Are we to return
home with this report of you ?
' soc. Not only this, my friend, but also that I
never yet came across anybody who did know, in
my opinion.

MEN. What? You did not meet Gorgias when
he was here ?

soc. I did.

MEN. And you didn’t consider that he knew?

soc. I have not a very good memory, Meno, so I
cannot tell at the moment how he struck me then.
It may be that he did know, and that you know
what he said : remind me therefore how he expressed

267

72

PLATO

el 5¢€ BovAa, adros cimé> Soxe? yap Symov aol
dmep éxeivw.

MEN. “Eyovye.

xa. "Exeivov pev toivey eduev, ered) Kal
dmeorw: oo dé adrdés, @ mpos Jedv, Mev, Tt
dis diperiy elvat; elmov Kal pur Plovijons, iva
eUTUXEOTATOV pedopwa epevopievos @, av davis
ad pev «ida@s Kal Topyias, éyd) 5é eipnkws pndevt
TwTOTE ElOOTL EVTETUXNKEVAL.

MEN. ’AAN od yxadrerdv, & UwxKpares, eimeiv.
mpa@tov prev, et Bove. avdpos aperHv, padiov, Ore
avtn éotiv avdpos dpern, ixavov elvar Ta THs
moAews mpdarTew, Kal mpaTTovTa Tovs pev didous
ed moveiv, tovs 8 eyOpods KaKk@s, Kal adrov
evAaBetobar pndev Towobrov mabeitv. et de _ Bowre
yuvauKos apeTyy, ov _xaNerov dveADeiv, ore Set
adrny Thy olxiay ed oikeiv, acblovodv Te Ta. evdov
kal KaT7}KOOV odoay Tov dvdpos. Kal aAAn éorl
ma.dos apeTy, Kal OnAcias Kal appevos, Kat Tpe~
aBurépov avdpds, ei prev Bove, edevbEpou, | ei be
Bowne, - Sovdov. Kal dau mapToNAa | dperat
clow, Wore ovK daropia elzety aperijs mépe o Tt
€or Kal? Exdorny yap Trav mpagewy kat Tav
TpAucvdv mpos ExaoTov épyov exdorw Ov 7 dpe
cor" waattws S€, olua, @ LeKpares, kal 7
Kakia.

2a TIoAAR yé TWe edTUXie €ouka Kexphobat,

& Mevey, et play Enrav Gperiy oputves Tt dv -
nupnKa dperav mapa gol KEYLEVOOY . ardp, &
Mevay, Kara Tavryy Thy €iKova TI mepl ra
oprvn, €l prov éepopevov peditrys mept odcias

268

MENO

it; or if you like, make your own statement, for I
expect you share his views.

MEN. I do.

soc. Then let us pass him over, since in fact he
is not present, and do you tell me, in heaven's
name, what is your own account of virtue. Speak
out frankly, that I may find myself the victim of a
most fortunate falsehood, if you and Gorgias prove to
have knowledge of it, while I have said that I never
yet came across anyone who had.

MEN. Why, there is no difficulty, Socrates, in
telling. First of all, if you take the virtue of a man,
it is easily stated that a man’s virtue is this—that
he be competent to manage the affairs of his city,
and to manage them so as to benefit his friends and
harm his enemies, and to take care to avoid suffering
harm himself. Or take a woman’s virtue: there
is no difficulty in describing it as the duty of ordering
the house well, looking after the property indoors,
and obeying her husband. And the child has
another virtue—one for the female, and one for the
male ; and there is another for elderly men—one,
if you like, for freemen, and yet another for slaves.
And there are very many other virtues besides, so
that one cannot be at a loss to explain what virtue
is; for it is according to each activity and age that
every one of us, in whatever we do, has his virtue ;
and the same, I take it, Socrates, will hold also of
vice.

soc. I seem to be in a most lucky way, Meno;
for in seeking one virtue I have discovered a whole
swarm of virtues there in your keeping. Now,
Meno, to follow this figure of a swarm, suppose I
should ask you what is the real nature of the bee,

VOL. IV K 269

PLATO

bd , >
0 Tt mort €oTt, mo\Ads Kal mavTodamds éXeyes
. ee.
adras elvar, ti dv amexpivw pot, el ce jpounr:
4
dpa tovrw dis mods Kai mavTodamas elvas
\ ~
kat dwadepovoas aAdjAwy, TH pedtras elvar;
nn
7 TovTm pev oddev diaddpovow, GAAw 8é TH,
olov 7 KdAAe 7 peyebe 7) GAAw Tw TV ToOLOvTwY ;
>
eirré, Ti av amrekpivw otTws epwrn Beis ;
a >
MEN. Toor’ éywye, dre ovdev Sraddpovow,
> ~
} péAurras eioiv, 7 érépa THs érépas.
> ~ ~ LA
x2. Ei ody eizov pera tatra: totro toivuy
foot avo «ime, & Mévww: & ovdev Siadepovow
> A ~
add tadbrov ciow dmaca, ti Todro dis eivat;
¥> a
elyes Sijov av Ti pou eimeiv;
MEN. “Eywye. ;
~ ~ >
x2. Ovrw 8) Kal wept tdv aper@v- Kav ei
‘ ‘ , > a , : ca
ToAAal Kal mavrodamai elow, ev yé tu eldos TadTov
A ww > a » Ree > / > “a ~
dmacat €xovor, d&” 6 eioiv dperai, eis 6 Kadds
wv > / ‘ > /, =
mov exer amoPrdbavta tov amoKpwdouevoy TH
A ~ =
epwrncavre exetvo SyA@om, 6 Tuyydver odoa
apeTH* 7 od pavOdvers 6 Te Aéyw;
~ e
MEN. Aoxk® yé por pavOdvew: od pevTor ws
Bovdropai yé mw Katéxw TO epwrdpevov.
a“ o
=a. Ildrepov 5€ mepi aperijs pdvov aot ovTw
cal »” A
Soxe?, & Mévwv, adAn pev avdpos elvar, aAAn Se
A} ‘ 7 »” nn A A € , ‘
yuvaikos Kat TOv GAAwv, H Kal mepl dyvelas Kal
\ i) \ 1 3223 ¢ , oe
mept peyelovs Kal mepl icyvos Woatrws; addy
\ > 5 ‘ a ii Ce ” de
pev avdpos Soxet cor elvar byieva, adAn Se yuvae-
~ > 27
Kos; % Tavrov mavtaxyod «ldds eoTw, eavmep
© ~
byleva 7, edvre ev avdpi edvre ev dd\Aw stwodbv F;
270

MENO

and you replied that there are many different kinds
of bees, and I rejoined: Do you say it is by being
bees that they are of many and various kinds and
differ from each other, or does their difference lie
not in that, but in something else—for example,
in their beauty or size or some other quality? Tell
me, what would be your answer to this question ?

men. Why, this—that they do not differ, as bees,
the one from the other.

soc. And if I went on to say: Well now, there
is this that I want you to tell me, Meno: what do
you call the quality by which they do not differ,
but are all alike? You could find me an answer,
I presume ?

MEN. I could.

soc. And likewise also with the virtues, however
many and various they may be, they all have one
common character whereby they are virtues, and
on which one would of course be wise to keep an
eye when one is giving a definitive answer to the
question of what virtue really is. You take my
meaning, do you not?

meN. My impression is that I do; but still I
do not yet grasp the meaning of the question as I
could wish. :

soc. Is it only in the case of virtue, do you think,
Meno, that one can say there is one kind belonging
to a man, another to a woman, and so on with the
rest, or is it just the same, too, in the case of health
and size and strength? Do you consider that
there is one-health for a man, and another for a
woman? Or, wherever we find health, is it of
the same character universally, in a man or in
anyone else ?

271

73

PLATO

MEN. “H adry por Soke? byierd ye elvar Kai
dvdpos Kal yuvaiKkds.

xa. Odxotv Kat péyeBos Kai loxts; édvmep
loxupa yuv7) 7, TO avT@ cider Kat TH adrH ioxvi
loxupa €oTar; TO yap TH adrtH TodTO Aé€yw- oddev
Siaddper mpos TO ioxds elvat 7 ioxds, eavTe ev
avept ) edvre ev yuvatki: SoKet Ti cou Svadépew;

MEN. Ovx €movye.

xo. ‘H 8€ dpe?) mpos TO ape? eivae dioicer TL,
eave ev mawdt h edvre ev mpeopurn, edvTe év
yuvaikt edvre ev avdpi;

MEN. "Epouyé mws doxet, @ UeKpares, TOUTO
ovKETL GpoLov elvan tots aAXots Tourous.

xa. Ti dé; ovdk dvdpos pev dperiy eAeyes
woAw €6 Sioikeiv, yuvarkos dé oikiav;

MEN. “Eywye.

30. “Ap otv oldv te ed S.oixety 7 moAw 7
oixiay 7 GAAo otiody, pi) owdpdvws Kat SuKaiws
dtovkoovTa;

MEN. Od dfra.

sa. Ovxoty dvmep Sixaiws Kat awdpdvws
Siouxor, Suxacoovvy Kal cwhpoovvy Siorxyjcovow ;

MEN. "Avdykn.

xa. Tédv adrav dpa duddrepor Séovrat, elmep
peAAovow dyabot elvar, Kal 7 yur) Kal 6 avip,
Suxaootvns Kal cwhpoovrys.

MEN. Waivovrat.

zo. Ti dé mats Kal mpeopirys ; av ako-
Aacrou dvres Kal ddiKot yaoi dv mote yevowTo;

MEN. OU djjra.

sa. *AAGd owddpoves Kat Sixator;

272

— ee

MENO

MEN. I think that health is the same, both in
man and in woman.

soc. Then is it not so with size and strength
also? If a woman is strong, she will be strong by
reason of the same form and the same strength ;
by “the same” I mean that strength does not
differ as strength, whether it be in a man or in a
woman. Or do you think there is any difference ?

MEN. I do not.

soc. And will virtue, as virtue, differ at all whether
it be in a child or in an elderly person, in a woman
or in aman?

men. I feel somehow, Socrates, that here we cease
to be on the same ground as in those other cases.

soc. Why? Were you not saying that a man’s
virtue is to manage a state well, and a woman’s
a house ?

MEN. I was.

soc. And is it possible to manage a state well,
or a house, or anything at all, if you do not manage
it temperately and justly ?

MEN. Surely not.

soc. Then whoever manages temperately and
justly will manage with temperance and justice ?

MEN. That must be.

soc. Then both the woman and the man require
the same qualities of justice and temperance, if
they are to be good.

MEN. Evidently.

soc. And what of a child or an old man? Can
they ever hope to be good if they are intemperate
and unjust ?

MEN. Surely not.

soc. Only if they are temperate and just ?

273

C

PLATO

MEN. Nai.
> ~ ~
x2. Ildvres dp’ avOpwro 7H adr Tpdorw
ayafot «iowy tT&v atrdav yap Tvxovtes ayaboi
ylyvovra..
”
MEN. “Eouxev.
> an“ / w A e > vv > A
sa. OvdK« av Srmov, ef ye pr % adr? apeTy
iv avT@v, TH ab’t@ av tporm ayabot joav.
MEN. Od dfra.
> \ , ¢€ aS, > \ ld
=a. “Enews roivuy 1% adr apet) mavTwr
€oTi, meup@ ecimetvy Kal davayvnoPAvar, ti adro
gdyot Vopyias civar Kat od per’ exeivov.
MEN. Ti dAdo y’ 4 apxew oldv tr elvar trav
avOpumwv; etrep &v yé Te Cnreis Kata mdvTwr.
za. "AAA pv Entd ye. ad dpa Kai
\ c 22% > / > / ‘ IN ”
Tatoos 7 avdT? apeTy, © Mévwr, kai Sovdov, apxew
oiw Te elvat Tob Seomdrov, Kal SoKet cou ETL av
dodAos elvar 6 apxwv;
MEN. OU madvu pou Soxet, @ UodKpares.
> \ > , > »” ” A ‘
so. Od yap «ikds, @ dpiore. Ett yap Kal
/ / + A e/ > >
TOOE oKOTEL’ apxew drs oldv 7° elvat- od mpoc-
Ojncopev attoce TO SiKaiws, adikws S€ uw;
” id
MEN. Oiuac é€ywye: 1 yap Sixaoovvn, w@
LwKpares, apeT €oTww.
4 > la > / “~ 3 ,
xa. Ildrepov apery, & Mévwv, 4 apery tis;
MEN. IIMs todro A€yets;
xa. ‘Qs mepit ddAov orovodv. ofov, et Bovdrer,
oTpoyyvAdTynTos Tépt cio.’ av Eywye, OTL oxHUA
Ti €oTW, ody ovTws amADs ott oyna. dia
~ A a nn ” 4 ‘ + ”
tatra dS€ ovTws dv etmoyu, Stet Kat adAa EorTe
OXT|ATO..
> ~ , 4, > A A > ‘ i4
MEN. "Op0ds ye Aéywv at, émel Kai eyo éyw
bl] / tA > A \ sm» > /
ov povov Sixaoovynv aAAd Kal ddAas elvas aperas.
274

»

ae ee Pe ee

MENO

MEN. Yes.

soc. So all mankind are good in the same way ;
for they become good when they acquire the same
qualities.

MEN. So it seems.

soc. And I presume, if they had not the same
virtue, they would not be good in the same way.

MEN. No, indeed.

soc. Seeing then that it is the same virtue in all
cases, try and tell me, if you can recollect, what
Gorgias—and you in agreement with him—say it is.

MEN. Simply that it is the power of governing
mankind—if you want some single description to
cover all cases.

soc. That is just what I am after. But is virtue
the same in a child, Meno, and in a slave—an ability
to govern each his master? And do you think he
who governed would still be a slave ?

MEN. I should say certainly not, Socrates.

soc. No, indeed, it would be unlikely, my excellent
friend. And again, consider this further point :
you say it is “to be able to govern’’; shall we
not add to that—“ justly, not unjustly ” ?

MEN. Yes, I think so; for justice, Socrates, is
virtue.

soc. Virtue, Meno, or a virtue ?

MEN. What do you mean by that?

soc. What I would in any other case. To take
roundness, for instance; I should call it a figure,
and not figure pure and simple. And I should
name it so because there are other figures as well.

MEN. You would be quite right—just as I say there
are other virtues besides justice.

275

74

PLATO

=0. Twas Tatras ; etme: ofov Kal eéywd gor
elrroune dy al dAAa oxnpara, el pe KeAevous:
Kat od obv ewol etme dMas dperds.

MEN. ‘H_ avdpeia Tolvuv epouye Soke? aper?
elvau Kat owhpoovyyn Kat codia Kat peyadomperera
Kal aAAat mdpmroan.

=a. Ilddw, o Meévow, TavTOV mreTrovOapev*

moAAas ad ndpnKapev dperas , biav Cntobvres,

dAAov Tpomov 7 vevdr: THY dé piav, q Sia mavTwv
ToUTwy €oTiv, ov duvapeba a avevpety,

MEN. Od yap Svvapat TH, @ LaKpares, os

ov Cnreis, lav dpernv daBeiv Kara mdvrwv,

soaer ev Tois aAAots.

xa. Eikdétws ye" GAN eye mpobvpjoopat,
éav olds 7 o, pas m™poBiBdoa. pavavers
yap qov, OTt obrwot exet rept mavros- el Tis Ge
dv€pouro Tobro, 6 vovdi) € eye eeyov, Ti €ort oxnua,
& Mévwv; «i air@ cles OTL oTpoyyvrcrns, Et
cou elmev dep eyes, mOrepov oxXnA 1 oTpoy-
yeadrns €oTly 7) oxhud tu; eles SyHmov av ote
OXIA Te. :

MEN. Ildvu ye.

=a. Ovxotiv dia ratdra, Sti Kat adda Eore
OXHPaATA.;

MEN. Nai.

xa. Kai ei ye zpocavnpdta ce orota, sabes av;

MEN. "Eywye.

za. Kai ad « mepi ypwparos doatrws av-
HpeTo 6 Te €oTt, Kal eimovTos Gov, Stt TO AEeuKOV,
peta Tatra breAaBev 6 _epwtav, mTOTEpov TO
Acuov xXpOyd eorw 7 XpOpa Tt; elmes av Ort
xpd tt, Sidte Kai ddAa tvyydver dvra;
276 -

a a oe

i
!

tn

ea sob

MENO

soc. What arethey? Tell me. Inthe same way
as I can tell you of other figures, if you request me,
so do you tell me of other virtues.

MEN. Well then, courage, I consider, is a virtue,
and temperance, and wisdom, and loftiness of mind ;
and there are a great many others.

soc. Once more, Meno, we are in the same
plight: again we have found a number of virtues
when we were looking for one, though not in the
same way as we did just now; but the one that
runs through them all, this we are not able to find.

MEN. No, for I am not yet able, Socrates, to follow
your line of search, and find a single virtue common
to all, as one can in other cases.

soc. And no wonder; but I will make an effort,
so far as I can, to help us onward. You understand,
of course, that this principle of mine applies to
everything: if someone asked you the question I
put to you just now: What is figure, Meno? and
you replied : Roundness ; and then he said, as I did:
Is roundness figure or a figure? I suppose you would
answer: A figure. ;

MEN. Certainly.

soc. And for this reason—that there are other
figures as well ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. And if he went on to ask you of what sort
they were, you would tell him ?

MEN. I would.

soc. And if he asked likewise what colour is,
and on your answering “ white” your questioner
then rejoined: Is “ white”’ colour or a colour?
your reply would be: A colour; because there are

_ other colours besides.

VOL. IV K 2 277

D

4

E

PLATO

MEN. “Eywye.

zo. Kat ef yé ce exédeve A€yew dda ypdpara,
” ” »” a IO\ , ” ,
édeyes av adda, & ovdev Arrov Tuyxdver dvTa xpw-
pata tod AevKod;

MEN. Nat.

20. Ei ody womep éym perjes tov ddyor,
Kal €Aeyev Ott del eis moAAd adixvotpeba, adrAG

, 4 > > > A A A ~ ef
pn pow ovtws, GAN’ éreid7) Ta moAAA Tabra Evi

, ~

TWL Mpocayopevers ovdpaTt, Kal dis oddev adTaV
6 Tt 08 oxhpa elvat, Kal Tadra Kal évavria dvra
dAAjAows, 6 TL EaTL TOOTO, 6 oddey FrToV KaTExeEL
‘ , n ‘ > / “a ‘ > / and
TO oTpoyyurov q TO evdu, 6 87 dvoudlets oxjya
Kal ovddev paMov Pus, TO oTpoyyvAov oyna eivat
}) TO «00; 7 ody ovTw déyes;

MEN. “Eywye.

xa. *Ap’ oby, orav ovTw Xéyns, TOTE disee
p1@dAov PIS TO otpoyyvAov elvar otpoyytAov 7)
e00¥, oddé TO VOD €dOd 7 oTpoyyvAor;

MEN. Ov Sijov, @ UaKpares.

sa. *AMa prj ox ye ovdev LaMov dns
elvau TO otpoyyvAov Tod «dios, oddé TO ETEpov
Tob €Tépov.

MEN. AdnOA Aé€yeis.

/ Ss ~ -~ av / >

xa. Ti more obv tobdTo, 0b tTotiro dvopd ort,
TO oxha; meip@ A€yew. Ef ody TH Epwravrt
otTws 7 mepl oxpatos 7 xpwparos eles O71
> > caND | / ” hid 7 oi
GAN’ obdé pavOdvw éywye 6 tt BovAcr, @ avOpwre,

3O.% Py v / ” nn > , ‘
ovde olda 6 Tu dAdyetss tows av eavuace Kai
eizev' ov pavOdveis, tt CnT@ TO emi TGot TovTALS

o 2 ” Oe r Tam | , > M f 54 A
TavTov; 7 ove emt TovTos, ® Mévwv, Exous av

278

_

—— ey

j
.
{
:

ae

MENO

MEN. It would.

soc. And if he bade you mention other colours,
you would tell him of others that are colours just as
much as white ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. Now suppose that, like me, he pursued the
argument and said: We are always arriving at a
variety of things, but let me have no more of that:
since you call these many things by one single
name, and say they are figures, every one of them,
even when they are opposed to one another, tell
me what is that which comprises round and straight
alike, and which you call figure—including straight
equally with round under that term. For that is
your statement, is it not?

MEN. It is.

soc. And in making it, do you mean to say that
round is no more round than straight, or straight
no more straight than round ?

mEN. No, to be sure, Socrates.

soc. What you mean is that the round shape is
no more a figure than the straight, or the straight
than the round.

MEN. Quite right.

soc. Then what can this thing be, which bears the
name of figure? Try and tell me. Suppose that,
on being asked this question by someone, either
about figure or about colour, you had replied: Why,
I don’t so much as understand what you want,
sir, or even know what you are saying: he might
well have shown surprise, and said: Do you not
understand that I am looking for that which is the
same common element in all these things? Or
would you still be unable to reply, Meno, if you were

279

B

C

PLATO

eizetv, el tis epwrdy: Ti e€oTw emt TH oTpoy-
ywrw Kai ed0e? Kai emi Tots ddAols, & 87) CXHpaTa
kaXeis, tadrov emi mao; meup@ eimetv, Wa Kal
yevyrat got perérn mpos THY TmEpl THs apeTAs
amoKptow.

MEN. M7, adda ov, ® UwxKpares, eimé.

xa. BovAe cot yapiowpas;

MEN. IIdvu ye.

xa. "EdeAjoes obv Kai od euot eimeiv mepi
Ths aperis;

MEN. “Eywye.

xa. [lpo8uynréov roivuv- agévov yap.

MEN. Ilavv pev odv.

xa. Dépe 50, mreipaicOd oot ciety, tl €or
oxhpa. oKdmey obtv «i Tdde dmodexn aire elvau:
éotw yap 51) Hiv Todo oxTpa, o povov TOV
OvTwy Tuyxdvel ypwpaTt del Emopevov. tkavas
Gol, 7 dMus mos Cnreis ; eye yap Kay ovTws
ayareny el pot dperiy elrols.

MEN. "AdAa Tobrd ye ednbes, & UwKpares.

xa. Ids Aéyes;

MEN. “Ore oxhyd mou €oTl KaTa TOV Gov
Adyov, 6 det xpoa mera. elev: ei O€ 57) TH
xpdav TLS pa) pain eidévat, dda oatrws dmropot

/
womep TEept TOD oxHpaTos, Ti Gv olet GoL aro-
Kexpioba;
=a. _ Tadn dh € eywye™ Kal, €t pev ye Tov copay

ro ein Kal EpuoTiK@y Te Kal dywveaTiK@y Oo

D epopevos, elroy” av avr@ ore €uot peev elpyrau:

él be pq) OpOBs Aéyo, oor Epyov AapBavew Adyov
kal edeyxew. el d€ Womep eyed Te Kal od vuvi
pido. dvtes BovdowTo aAdjAois SiadéyecGau, Sei
280

j
4
E
a
2
§
4
,'

MENO

approached on other terms, and were asked: What
is it that is common to the round and the straight
and everything else that you call figures—the same
in all? Try and tell me; it will be good practice
for your answer about virtue.

MEN. No, it is you who must answer, Socrates.

soc. You wish me to do you the favour ?

_ MEN. By all means.

soc. And then you will agree to take your turn
and answer me on virtue ?

MEN. I will.

soc. Well then, I must make the effort, for it is
worth our while.

MEN. Certainly.

soc. Come now, let me try and tell you what
figure is. Just consider if you accept this description
of it: figure, let us say, is the only existing thing that
is found always following colour. Are you satisfied,
or are you looking for something different? I am
sure I should be content with a similar account of
virtue from you.

MEN. But it is such a silly one, Socrates.

soc. How do you mean?

meEN. Well, figure, as I understand by your account,
is what always follows colour. Very good; but if
some one said he did not know colour, and was in the
same difficulty about it as about figure, what answer
do you suppose would have come from you ?

soc. The truth, from me; and if my questioner
were a professor of the eristic and contentious sort,
I should say to him: I have made my statement ;
if it is wrong, your business is to examine and refute
it. But if, like you and me on this occasion, we were
friends and chose to have a discussion together, I

281

PLATO

oy) TpPAorepov mws Kal SiaAenruccsrepov aro-
xpiveoBau. €ot. 5€ tows TO SuaAenruccsrepov 7)
povov TaAnOA amoxpivecBar, ana. Kat Ov éxetvwy
dv av mpocopodoyh cidévar 6 epwrapevos. 7reL-
pdcopar 8) Kal eyw aor ovtws e«imeiv. Héye
ydp pow TeAeuTHv Kadeis TL; Tovdvde A€yw ofov
E 7épas Kat €oxarov: mdvra tabra tadrov Tu Aéyw°
tows 8 av’ jutvy IIpddiucos Suadgporro: adAd od
yé mov Kadeis memepdvOa te Kat teTeAcuTHKEvat:
To To.odTov BovAopar Aéyewv, oddSEev TrouKiAov.
MEN. “AdAa Kad, Kal oiwar pavOavew 6
déyets.
76 20. Ti 8; émimedov Kadreis m1, Kal €repov
ad orepedv, olov Taira Ta €v yewperpiais ;
MEN. “Eywye Kado.
xa. "Hdn toivey dv pabors pov ék tovrwr,
oxjua 6 A€yw. Kata yap TavTds oxnpatos
totTo Aéyw, eis 6 TO oTEpedv Tepaiver, Tod
elvar oxfua* omep av avAdaBov etrouu orepeod
mépas oxhua elvac.
MEN. To de XpOpa. vi Aéeyers, @ UoKpares;
20. ‘YT Bpiorys x el, ® Mévwv- avdpi mpeoBury
mpdypara TpooTarreis dmoxpiveoban, abtos dé
B ovK ebereis dvapnobeis eimetv, O Ti moTE Aéyet
Topyias aperyy elvac.
MEN. “AA” ezevddy prow od Tobr elms, &
Lwx«pares, €p@ aot.
sa. Kav xkataxexaduppevos tis yvoin, @
Mévwr, diareyouevov gov, dtu Kadds ef Kal epacrai
cou Tt <iaiv.

282

MENO

should have to reply in some milder tone more suited
to dialectic. The more dialectical way, I suppose,
is not merely to answer what is true, but also to
make use of those points which the questioned
- person acknowledges he knows. And this is the
way in which I shall now try to argue with you.
Tell me, is there something you call an end? Such
a thing, I mean, as a limit, or extremity—I use all
these terms in the same sense, though I daresay
Prodicus! might quarrel with us. But you, I am
sure, refer to a thing as terminated or ended:
something of that sort is what I mean—nothing
complicated.

men. Yes, I do, and I think I grasp your meaning.

soc. Well then, you speak of a surface, and also
of a solid—the terms employed in geometrical
problems ?

MEN. I do.

soc. So now you are able to comprehend from all
this what I mean by figure. In every instance of
figure I call that figure in which the solid ends ;
and I may put that more succinctly by saying that
figure is “ limit of solid.”

men. And what do you say of colour, Socrates ?

soc. How overbearing of you, Meno, to press an
old man with demands for answers, when you will
not trouble yourself to recollect and tell me what
account Gorgias gives of virtue !

mEN. When you have answered my question,
Socrates, I will answer yours.

soc. One might tell even blindfolded, Meno, by
the way you discuss, that you are handsome and

still have lovers.

1 Cf. Protag. 337 a.
283

PLATO

MEN. Ti 87;

za. “Orr otdév aA H emitarres ev ols

Adyous* Grep Trowdow ot tpuddvres, dre Tupav-
vevovTes, ews av ev wpa or. Kal aya epuod
lows KaTéyvwKas, OTL cil yrTwv Tov Kaddv.
Xaptoduat ody cou Kal amoKpwodpat.
MEN. Ildvu pev odv ydpioa.
x2. BovdAa ody cor Kata Topyiay dmoxpi-
vopa, 7 av od pddvora axorovjoas ;
MEN. BovAopat: ms yap ov;
xa. Odxotv réyere amoppods twas Tav ovTwv
kata *Eumedoxréa;
MEN. Ldddpa ye.
\ / > “a ‘ > e e > .
20. Kai mdpous, eis ods Kai du’ dv at amoppoai
mopevovTat;
MEN. Ildvu ye.
‘ ~ > ~ A A ¢ ,
xa. Kai rév dmoppodv tas pev apporrew
eviots TOV TOpwv, Tas dé eAdtrouvs H peilous
elvat;
” ~
MEN. “Eott tatra.
sa. Odxotv kal dw Kadreis TW;
MEN. “Eywye.
za. “Ex rtovrwv 87 Evves 6 Tor Aéyw, edn
Ilivdapos. €oTt yap xpda amoppon oxnudtwr
oer ovppeTpos Kai aicbnrds.
can) / PS) ~ s PP 4 4
MEN. “Apuord jot Soxeis, ® LUwKpates, TavTnv
TV amoKpLoW eipyKevar.
xa. “lows ydp cot Kata ovvyPeav eipyrat:

1 There is something of Gorgias’s stately style in the
definition that follows; but the implication seems mainly to
be that the substance of it will be familiar to Meno because

284

MENO 2

men. Why so?

soc. Because you invariably speak in a peremptory
tone, after the fashion of spoilt beauties, holding as
they do a despotic power so long as their bloom is
on them. You have also, I daresay, made a note of
my weakness for handsome people. So I will indulge
you, and answer.

MEN. You must certainly indulge me.

soc. Then would you like me to answer you in
the manner of Gorgias,! which you would find easiest
to follow ?

MEN. I should like that, of course.

soc. Do not both of you say there are certain
effluences ? of existent things, as Empedocles held ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. And passages into which and through which
the effluences pass ?

MEN. To be sure.

soc. And some of the effluences fit into various
passages, while some are too small or too large?

MEN. That is so.

soc. And further, there is what you call sight?

MEN. Yes.

soc. So now “ conceive my meaning,” as Pindar?
says : colour is an effluence of figures, commensurate
with sight and sensible.

MEN. Your answer, Socrates, seems to me excel-
lently put.

soc. Yes, for I expect you find its terms familiar ;

he was a pupil of Gorgias, who had learnt his science from
Empedocles.

? Empedocles taught that material objects are known to
us by means of effluences or films given off by them and
suited in various ways to our sense-organs.

* Fr. 82 (Bergk) ; ¢f. Aristoph. Birds, 939.

285

17

PLATO

kal dua, _olpar, evvoeis, OTL exous dy ef avrijs
eimeiv Kat puri, 6 €oTt, Kal dopyy Kat adda
ToAAa Ta&v TowovTwr.

MEN. IIdvu pev odv.

=a. Tpayixy yap eorw, &d Méevwv, % amoxpvois,
oe ~ ~
Wate apéoKker aor GAXov 7) 7 Tepi TOO oyTpaTos.

MEN. “Epovye.

22. “AM ovK €oTW, @ mai "Adc§ dijo, ws
eya) €javTov meiDun, GAN’ éxeivyn BedAtiwv: otpat

>? 4 ov A uv
dé odd’ av ool dd€at, ei uy, womep xOes Edexyes,
avayKatdy oor amiévar mpo TOV pvoTnpiwy, add’
el mepyeivais Te Kal punOeins.
>

MEN. “AAAa mepiyevoiw’” av, @ LedKpares, et
prot troAAa rowadra A€yous.

>

xa. “AAAa pv mpobvpias ye oddev azrodrcibw,
Kal ood evexa Kal euavTod, Aéywy rovadra: aX’
Ld A > / 9 iW. A ~ is
OTws pn ovx olds T Egopat ToAAa ToLadra A€yew.
> > wv A a ‘ \ > ‘ A ec /

GAN’ ie 8) mepG Kai od enol ti trdcyecw
amodobvat, Kata OAov eimav GpeThs meEpt, 6 TL eat,
Kal tratoat moAAa moray ex Tob évds, Omep pact

A / 4 e /, € A > >

Tovs ouvtpiPovrds Tt ExdoTOTE of oKwrTOVTES, GAA

~ A
edoas OAnv Kal byh cimé ti eorw dpern. Ta dé
ye Trapadeiypara map euod etAndas.

MEN. Aoxe?t Tolvuv Hot, @® LwoKpares, ape
elvac, Kabarep 6 TOUTHS A€yet, Xaipew TE xahotor
Kat Svvacbau Kal éyw todro éyw aperHny, ém-
Oupobvra t&v KadA@v dvvarov elvar tropilecbar.

io / A ~ ~ > ~
=a. "Apa A€yes Tov Tov KaAdv émvpodvTa
ayabav émbupnrny etva;
/ 4

MEN. MdAtord ye.

7 ¢e 4 at a ~ ~ >
za. "Apa ws dvtwy twdv of Tay KaKk@v ém-

1 Perhaps from Simonides.

286

MENO

and at the same time I fancy you observe that it
enables you to tell what sound and smell are, and
numerous other things of the kind.

MEN. Certainly.

soc. It is an answer in the high poetic style,
Meno, and so more agreeable to you than that about
figure.

MEN. Yes, it is.

soc. But yet, son of Alexidemus, I am inclined
to think the other was the better of the two; and
I believe you also would prefer it, if you were not
compelled, as you were saying yesterday, to go
away before the mysteries, and could stay awhile
and be initiated.

MEN. But I should stay, Socrates, if you would
give me many such answers.

soc. Well then, I will spare no endeavour, both
for your sake and for my own, to continue in that
style ; but I fear I may not succeed in keeping for
long on that level. But come now, you in your
turn must try and fulfil your promise by telling me
- what virtue is in a general way ; and you must stop
producing a plural from the singular, as the wags
say whenever one breaks something, but leave
virtue whole and sound, and tell me what it is.
The pattern you have now got from me.

MEN. Well, in my view, Socrates, virtue is, in the
poet’s words, “to rejoice in things honourable and
be able for them 1; and that, I say, is virtue—to
desire what is honourable and be able to procure it.

soc. Do you say that he who desires the honour-
able is desirous of the good ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. Implying that there are some who desire

287

PLATO

~ ef A a ~ > ~ 9% ,
bupotow, érépwv S€ ot t&v ayabdv; od martes,
C wpiote, Soxobci cor THv ayabdv emBvpetv;
MEN. Ovdx esmovye.
za. *Adda twes THY KaKkav; :
MEN. Nat.
‘
20. Oidpevor ta Kaka ayaba elvar, Adyeis,
\ a
Kal yuyvwokovTes, OTL KaKad €oTW, Opws eémt-
Ovpotow atrav;
> /, ” a
MEN. “Apuddrepa Eewouye Soxe?.
> a
=a. *H yap doxet tis cor, d Mev, yryyvdoxwv
TA KAKG OTL KAKG eoTW Guws emiOupetv adTayv;
MEN. MadAora.
xa. Ti émiOvpetv rA€yets; 7} yevéoOar adra;
D meEN. Tevéo@a: ri yap dAdo;
, e uA A A > ~
2a. IIdrepov ayovpevos Ta Kaka wdedreiv
exeivov @ av yevnTa, 7) yryvboKwv Ta KaKa OTL
Branret & av raph;
7 A A Bivk / A A > a
MEN. EKiot pev ot Wyovpevor Ta Kaka wdereiv,
elot d€ Kai ot yuyvwoKovres ote BAdmTeL.
xa. "H kai doxofoi cor yuyywoKew Ta Kaka,
OTt KaKGd eoTW, Of HyoUpevor TA KAKA Whedeiv;
MEN. Od wavu pou doKet TobTd ye.
> ~ ond A oy A > ~ ~
x0. Odxodv dSiAov drt obTou ev od THY KaKdv
> ~ | ett ~ > / > 4 > /, “a
emOupotow, of ayvootyTes adtd, GAAd exeivwv, a
E @ovro ayaba evar, €orr 5é Tatra ye KaKd: wore
oi ayvoobytes adTa Kal oiduevor ayaba elvar SijAov
ort Tav ayabdrv émbvuotow: 7 ov;
MEN. Kuwvduvetovow obdroi ye.
?, , ¢ ~ ~ A > ~
xa. Ti S5€; of tr&v Kaxdv pev éemiOvpotvres,
e A , ¢€ 7, A ‘A A /, = ~
ws dys av, jyovpevor 5€ Ta KaKa PAdrrew exeivor,
@ av yiyvyrat, yeyvwoKovat Siov ori BAaByjcovrat
tm avtov;
288

ec eee

ea

MENO

the evil, and others the good? Do not all men,
in your opinion, my dear sir, desire the good ?

MEN. I think not.

soc. There are some who desire the evil ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. Thinking the evil to be good, do you mean,
or actually recognizing it to be evil, and desiring
it nevertheless? _

MEN. Both, I believe.

soc. Do you really believe, Meno, that a man
knows the evil to be evil, and still desires it ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. What do you mean by “ desires”? Desires
the possession of it ?

MEN. Yes; what else could it be ?

soc. And does he think the evil benefits him who
gets it, or does he know that it harms him who
has it?

MEN. There are some who think the evil is a
benefit, and others who know that it does harm.

soc. And, in your opinion, do those who think
the evil a benefit know that it is evil ?

MEN. I do not think that at all.

soc. Obviously those who are ignorant of the evil ~

do not desire it, but only what they supposed to
be good, though it is really evil; so that those
who are ignorant of it and think it good are really
desiring the good. Is not that so?

MEN. It would seem to be so in their case.

soc. Well now, I presume those who, as you say,
desire the evil, and consider that the evil harms him
who gets it, know that they will be harmed by it ?

289

78

PLATO

MEN. ’Avdyxn.

za. “Ada rods BArarropévous obror odk olovrat
> , > 4 f
abAiovs elvar Kal’ doov BAdrrovrat;

MEN. Kat roiro dvdy«n.

A \ > / > /

22. Tods € abAiovs od Kaxodaipovas;

MEN. Ofpar eywye.

30. “Eorw obv doris BovAerat aOAvos Kal KaKo-
Saipwv elvar;

MEN. OU pot Soxe?, & UedKpares.

32. Ovdx dpa BovAcra, & Mévwv, ra Kaka
ovdeis, eizep yin Bovderar Towwbros <ivar. ti yap
GAAo €otiv abduov civar, 7) emiOupetv Te THY KaK@v
Kat Krao0at;

MEN. Kwédvvevers aAnbq rA€yew, & Ud«pares:
Kat ovdeis BovAcoPar Ta Kaka.

> ~ ~ \ ” Ld uv ¢ > \
x2. Odxoiv viv 8) Edeyes, Stu Eorw % aperi)
BovAcoBai te Tayaba Kat Svvacba;

MEN. Hizov ydp.

22. Ovxodv rod’ AexPevTos 7d pev BovrAcoBa
mdow wrdapxer, Kal Ta’Tn ye oddev 6 ETEpOS TOD
érépou PeATiwv;

MEN. Waiverac.

za. “Ada Sidov ot, elmep ori Bedtiwv
aAXos adAov, kara To S¥vacbat av ein apeivwr.

MEN. Ilavu ye.

a > ” »” e ” A} ‘ A
sa. Totr’ éorw dpa, ws €ouxe, Kata Tov Gov
Adyov apeTy, Svapis ToD mopileoOa rayabd.

MEN. Ilayrdzaci po. Soxet, & LwdKpares,
ovTws Exew, Ws od viv troAap Pavers.

x0. “Idwpev 5% Kat robro ei adnbés réyeis:
” ‘\ n hd / > 6a A id: > i
tows yap av ev A€yos. rtayabla dis oldv 7 elva
mropileaVar aperiv elvar; ~
290

—

atl

tres

Aner

2

Ser

MENO

MEN. They needs must.

soc. But do they not hold that those who are
harmed are miserable in proportion to the harm
they suffer ?

MEN. That too must be.

soc. And are not the miserable ill-starred ?

MEN. I think so.

soc. Then is there anyone who wishes to be
miserable and ill-starred ?

MEN. I do not suppose there is, Socrates.

soc. No one, then, Meno, desires evil, if no one
desires to be such an one: for what is being miserable
but desiring evil and obtaining it ?

MEN. It seems that what you say is true, Socrates,
and that nobody desires evil.

soc. Well now, you were saying a moment ago
that virtue is the desire and ability for good ?

MEN. Yes, I was.

soc. One part of the statement—the desire—
belongs to our common nature, and in this respect
one man is no better than another ?

MEN. Apparently.

soc. But it is plain that if one man is not better
than another.in this, he must be superior in thé
ability.

MEN. Certainly.

soc. Then virtue, it seems by your account, is
ability to procure goods.

MEN. I entirely agree, Socrates, with the view
which you now take of the matter.

soc. Then let us see whether your statement is
true in another respect ; for very likely you may be
right. You say virtue is the ability to procure goods ?

1 rod Ast: totrou Mss,

291

PLATO

”
MEN. "Eywye.
za. “Ayaba dé Kadets odyi ofov bylevdy re Kal
mrAobrov ;

A , o, \ > , lou
MEN. Kat ypvoiov Ayo Kat apytpiov KTac8ar—

Kal Tyas ev oA Kal apyds.
2a. M7) ad’ arra Aéyers Tayala 7 } Ta rowadra;
MEN. QOux, adda mavra Aéyw 7a ToLabra.

D 30. Ele: xpvoiov de 87) Kat dpydprov Tropt-
Cecbar aperr coTw, ws dyno. Mévwr 6 Tob peydXouv
Bacwéws matpikos €€vos. mdtepov mpooribeis

_TovTM TO TOpw, @ Meévwv, 76 Suxaiws Kal doiws,
a” 35 / PS) , LAA A nn iO / ey"
H oddev cor Siadéper, aAAa Kav adikws Tis ada
mropilntat, duoiws od adra dperiv Kadeis;

> / > A
MEN. Od drjzov, d Udxpares.
za. *AdAd xaxiav.
Fd "6
MEN. [ldvrws dij7ov.
za. Ac? dpa, ws €ouxe, ToUTW TH TOpw SiKaL0-
4 ” 4, “a ¢ / ~ vn +
avvyv 7 cwhpootvyy 7 doLdTynTA Tpoceivat, 7) aAAO

E tt poptov aperijs: ei 5¢ uy, ode eoras apery, Kat-

mep exmopilovoa Tayabd.
~ A + t4 > A /, Ee

MEN. Il@s yap dvev tovtwy aperi yévour’ av;

za. To d€ py éexmopilew xpuvciov Kai apytpiov,
id A ‘ / ¢ ~ 7 ” >
orav pq) Sikavov 4, pyTe adT@ pte GdAw, ovK
GpeT? Kal avrn eotiv 7) ne :

MEN. QDaiverac.

=a. Oddev apa pa)Aov 6 mOpos TOV ToLOUTwY
ayabay 7) % amopia aper? av ein, aAAd, ws orev,
6 pev av peta Sixaoovyys yiyvyta, aperi) EoTar,

79 68 dav dvev mavtwv THV ToLOVTWY, KaKia.

292

Pe

os

oo

Eticasinliee A iced

PPM Pine

MENO

MEN. I do.

soc. And do you not mean by goods such things
as health and wealth ?

-meN. Yes, and I include the acquisition of gold
and silver, and of state honours and offices.

soc. Are there any things besides this sort, that
you class as goods ?

MEN. No, I refer only to everything of that sort.

soc. Very well: procuring gold and silver is
virtue, according to Meno, the ancestral friend of
the Great King. Tell me, do you add to such procur-
ing, Meno, that it is to be done justly and piously,
or is this indifferent to you, but even though a man
procures these things unjustly, do you call them
virtue all the same ?

MEN. Surely not, Socrates.

soc. Rather, vice.

MEN. Yes, of course.

soc. Then it seems that justice or temperance
or holiness or some other part of virtue must ac-
company the procuring of these things; otherwise
it will not be virtue, though it provides one with
goods.

MEN. Yes, for how, without these, could it be
virtue ?

soc. And not to procure gold and silver, when it
would be unjust—what we call the want of such
things—is virtue, is it not ?

MEN. Apparently.

soc. So the procuring of this sort of goods will be
no more virtue than the want of them; but it
seems that whatever comes accompanied by justice
will be virtue, and whatever comes without any such
quality, vice.

293

4

C

PLATO

MEN. Aoxe? pou avayKaiov eivar ws Adyets.

x2. Odxodv tovtwy éxaotov dAlyov mpdrepov
peoptov aperis edapev elvar, THv SiKavoodyyy Kal
owdpoovvny Kal mdvTa Ta TOLAdTA;

MEN. Nat.

xa. Eira, dé Mévwv, railers mpdos pe;

MEN. Ti 87, @ Lwxpares;

xa. “Ore dpte euod Senbévtos cov pi Kar-
ayvivar pnde Kepparilew Thy apeTiv, Kal Sdvtos
mapadelypata Kal? a déo. azoxpivecOa, tovTov

‘A b] / 4 /, Ld > iD ,
prev nuedAnoas, A€yets 5€ ror, Ste apeTH eatw ofdv
7 evar tayaba mopilecBar pera Sikacoovvys:
tobTo dé dijs poptov aperis elvar;

MEN. “Eywye.

so. Odxotv ovpBaiver € dv od cpodoyeis, Td
fuera popiov aperns mpdtrew, 6 Te av mpdtTn,
rodro dpetiv elvar- tiv yap Sixavoodvnv pdptov
dis apeths elvat, Kat Exacta TovTwy. Ti odv d7
tobto A€yw; Stu euod SenBevros GAov eimeiy Ti
aperiv, adriy pev moddob Seis eimetv 6 Tu EoTL,
nacav Sé dys mpaéw dpernv elvar, édvrep pera.
popiov dperns mpatrnta, womep eipnKa@s 6 Tt
apery €oTt TO OAov Kal 7dn yrwoopévov E00, Kal
édv od katakeppatilns adrnv Kata popia. Seirar
oty cou wddw e€ apyfs, ws ot Soxet, tis adrijs
> / > , / , or > tA > A
epwrncews, @ hile Mévwy, ti eat apeTn, et weTa
propiov aperhs maca mpakis dpetn av ein; TodTo
yap éott A€yew, drav rEyn Tis, 6Te maou 4 pera
Suxavoovvyns mpakis apetyn eoTw. 7 od Soe cor
mddw Seicba rijs adtiis épwrjoews, GAN’ oter Twa
eidévas pdpiov aperis o Te €otw, adriy [n €iddTa;

294

MENO

MEN. I agree that it must be as you say.

soc. And were we saying a little while ago that
each of these things was a part of virtue—justice
and temperance and the rest of them?

MEN. Yes.

soc. And here you are, Meno, making fun of me ?

MEN. How so, Socrates ?

soc. Because after my begging you not to break
up virtue into small change, and giving you a pattern
on which you should answer, you have ignored all
this, and, now tell me that virtue is the ability to
procure good things with justice; and this, you tell
me, is a part of virtue ?

MEN. I do.

soc. Then it follows from your own admission
that doing whatever one does with a part of virtue is
itself virtue ; for you say that justice is a part of
virtue, and so is each of such qualities. You ask the
meaning of my remark. It is that after my request-
ing you to speak of virtue as a whole, you say not a
word as to what it is in itself, but tell me that every
action is virtue provided that it is done with a part
of virtue ; as though you had told me what virtue
is in the whole, and I must understand it forthwith
—when you are really splitting it up into fragments !
I think therefore that you must face the same
question. all over again, my dear Meno—What is
virtue ?—if we are to be told that every action
accompanied by a part of virtue is virtue ; for that
is the meaning of the statement that every action
accompanied by justice is virtue. Or do you not
agree that you have to meet the same question
afresh? Do you suppose that anyone can know a
part of virtue when he does not know virtue itself ?

295

D

80

PLATO

MEN. Ovx _epouye Soxet.

=0. Ki yap Kal pepuvnoat, or éyd oor aprt
dmexpwdpny rept Tob oXNparTos, dareBadnopev
Tov THY ToLavTHY amoKpLow THY Sia TaV ETL Ly-
TOULEVOV Kal LnTW wWLodoynmevwN emLyELpodoaVy
atroxpiveoOat.

MEN. Kat dp0d&s ye ameBaddopev, & UedKpares.

20, My Tour, @ dpwote, pide ov €Tt Enrou-
pevns dpetis Ans Oo Tu €o'Tw olov Sud Trav Tavrns
joploy daoKpwvO[Levos dyAdoew avrny oTwobv, 7
aAXro dotiwbiv to’Tw TH adT@ TpoT déyoow, adda,
mddw Tis avrTis SerjoceoBau EpwTngEws, Tivos
ovtos apeTns Ayers a A€yeis: 7) OddEY Gor SoKD
Aéyew;

MEN. "Epouye Soxeis dp0ds Aéyew.

22, "Arroxpwat Tolvuy mdhw e€ apyfs: ti drs
aperiv elvar Kal ov Kal o éraipos gov;

MEN. *Q. Lenpares, Tcovov poev eywye mplv
Kal ouyyeveoIat oot, oT. od oddev dAdo 7 7) avros
TE dropeis Kal Tovs dMous qovets dzropetv: kal
viv, as ye foe doxkeis, yonTevers je Kal papparres
Kal drexvs KATETGOELS, WOTE [LEOTOV drropias ye~
yovevat* Kat Soxeis pou TmavTedds, ei Set Te Kat
oxaypar, _Oposraros elvan TO Te €ldos Kal TaMa
Taury TH mhareia vapkn TH Bararria. Kal yap
arn TOV Gel mgovdlovra Kal darrdpevov vapiedv
move’ Kal od SoKets prow viv eue Towobrov TL
memounkevar [vapKay |. adAnBas yap eywye Kal
Thy puxnv Kal TO oTOua vapKa, Kal ovK exw O Tt
GmToKpiVWULal GoL. KaLTOL pUpLaKIs ‘YE TEpL apeTis

1 yapxav secl. Dobree.

296

EC Oe =

¥
a
7,
1
€
%
4

MENO

MEN. No, I do not.

soc. And I daresay you remember, when I
answered you a while ago about figure, how we
rejected the sort of answer that attempts to proceed
in terms which are still under inquiry and has
not yet been admitted.

mEN. Yes, and we were right in rejecting it,
Socrates.

soc. Well then, my good sir, you must not in
your turn suppose that while the nature of virtue
as a whole is still under inquiry you will explain
it to anyone by replying in terms of its parts, or by
any other statement on the same lines: you wil]
only have to face the same question over again—
What is this virtue, of which you are speaking all
the time? Or do you see no force in what I say ?

MEN. I think what you say is right.

soc. Then answer me again from the beginning :
what do both you and your associate say that
virtue is ?

MEN. Socrates, I used to be told, before I began
to meet you, that yours was just a case of being
in doubt yourself and making others doubt also ;
and so now I find you are merely bewitching me
with your spells and incantations, which have reduced
me to utter perplexity. And if I am indeed to have
my jest; I consider that both in your appearance
and in other respects you are extremely like the
flat torpedo sea-fish ; for it benumbs anyone who
approaches and touches it, and something of the sort
is what I find you have done to me now. For in
truth I feel my soul and my tongue quite benumbed,
and I am at a loss what answer to give you. And
yet on countless occasions I have made abundant

297

PLATO

/ , ” ‘ 4 4, 4
trapmdAXAous Adyous eipnKa Kal mpds moAAovs, Kal
/ s e > a 207 A A 29>
mavu €b, WSs ye ewavT@ eddKovv viv dé odd 6 Tt

/ a cal
€oTt TO Tapdmay exw eimeiv. Kal pot Soxeis eb
/, b] > /, > , 299 > ~
BovdAevecbar odk exmAéwv evbevde od8’ admodnudv:
> \ / > » / ~ aA Mes
et yap £évos ev adAn moAK Tovatra mois, Tax
av ws yons amraxGeins.
22. Ilavoipyos ef, & Meévwv, Kai ddtyou é€-
nmatTnods pe. )
MEN. Ti pdadtora, & LoKpares;
, ¢ , wo
2a. Tuyvdorw ob everd pe elxacas.
MEN. Tivos 87) oteu;
za. “Iva ce dvretxdow. eyd 8é Tobdro” olda
Tept TavTwy T&v KaAdv, STi xaipovow eixalopevor.
AvaiteAct yap adrois: Kadai ydp, olpat, trav
a ‘ e > / > > > > / ,
KaA@v Kat at eikdves. GAN’ ovdKk avTEetKdoopai ce.
eyw dé, et ev 7) vapkn adrT?) vapK@oa ovTw Kal
AY ” a ~ ” > A > A ,
TOUS dMous more’ vapKgy, éouca avr: él dé 7,
»” > ~ > ~ >
ov. ov yap edrrop@v abrds Tovs aAXous r0L@ azo-
a > A A ~ > A > ~ 4 ‘
peiv, AAA mavTos uaAAov adbros dmop@v ottws Kai
tovs aAAouvs row azropeiv. Kai viv mepi aperis,
6 €oTw, eyw pev odK olda, od pévToL Laws mpdTEpoVv
pev 7Odn00a mpiv euod aipacba, viv évror dpovos
> 99 7 oe \ 3997 A ~ /
ef ovk ciddtt. Suws dé €0éAw pera aod oxdbacbat
kat ovlyntioat 6 ti moré €oTw.

MEN. Kai tiva tpdmov Crrices, & LadKpares,

TobTO, 6 1) olo8a TO mapdmay 6 TL €oTL; Totov yap

* > > , 7, a” > \ @¢

dv ov« oloba mpobguevos Cyrjces; 7 €t Kal Ore
~ an id a

pddota evrvxos att@, THs elon ott TobTS eorw,

6 od ovk« 75000;

298

EN PR i ARS GE

+w?e

MENO

speeches on virtue to various people—and very good
speeches they were, so I thought—but now I cannot
say one word as to what it is. You are well advised,
I consider, in not voyaging or taking a trip away
from home ; for if you went on like this as a stranger
in any other city you would very likely be taken up
for a wizard.

soc. You are a rogue, Meno, and had almost
deceived me.

MEN. How is that, Socrates ?

soc. I perceive your aim in thus comparing me.

MEN. What was it ?

soc. That I might compare you in return. One
thing I know about all handsome people is this—
they delight in being compared to something.
They do well over it, since fine features, I suppose,
must have fine similes. But I am not for playing
your game. As for me, if the torpedo is torpid
itself while causing others to be torpid, I am like
it, but not otherwise. For it is not from any sure-
ness in myself that I cause others to doubt: it is
from being in more doubt than anyone else that I
cause doubt in others. So now, for my part, I
have no idea what virtue is, whilst you, though
perhaps you may have known before you came in
touch with me, are now as good as ignorant of it
also. But none the less I am willing to join you in
examining it and inquiring into its nature.

MEN. Why, on what lines will you look, Socrates,
for a thing of whose nature you know nothing at all?
Pray, what sort of thing, amongst those that you know
not, will you treat us to as the object of your search ?
Or even supposing, at the best, that you hit upon it,
how will you know it is the thing you did not know?

299

PLATO

z2. Mavédvw ofov BovrAe Adyew, d Mevowv.

E ct a ~ e > 4 , 4, e >
opds Tobrov ws epiotixov Adyov KaTdyeis, Ws ovK

81

” v a > 7 v “a + a A
dpa €or. Cynreiv avOpwmw ore 6 ofdev ove 6 pi)
yw A ”“ a a Me / ‘

oldev; ovre yap av 6 ye olde Lyrot: olde ydp, Kai
ovdev dei TH ye tTowdrw Cytjcews: ovTe 6 pr)
> 394 A > bd ,
oldev: oddێ yap oidev 6 Tu Cnryoet.

MEN. Ovxodv Kadds cot doxet AdyecBar 6
Adyos odtos, & Laikpares;

=a. Odx euorye.

MEN. “Eyeus Aéyew orn;

” > , A > Saal ‘

za. “Eywye* axjkoa yap avip@v te Kal yuvat-
K@v copav rept Ta Oeia mpaypwata—

MEN. Tiva Adyov AeyovTwr;

za. *AAnOH, Ewouye Soxeiv, Kal Kaddv.

MEN. Tiva Toorov, Kai tives ot Aéyovtes;

za. Of pev déyovrés eciot TOV tepewv Te Kai
ieper@v doors pewéeAnke epi dv peraxerpilovrat
Adyov otows 7 elvan Siddvars Aéyer S€ Kai [ivdSapos

‘ LA 4 ~ n~ a af >
Kat ddAot rroAdot THv Tountav, doo. Yeioi eiow.
“a 4A /, , > > A / ”
& 5é A€yovor, ravi éorw: aAAa oKdmeE, El aor
Soxodow adnOj dA&éyew. dact yap tiv puynv
Tod avOpwmov elvat aOdvarov, Kat tore pev
tereurav, 6 8) amobvjoKkew Kadota, Tote Se
médw yiyvesba, amdd\Avcba 8 oddémore: Seiv
57) Sua radra ds dowrata Siabidvar tov Biov-
oiot yap av—

Depoeddova moway tadaob wévOcos

deLerau, eis Tov UrepHev Gov Keivwv evatw ETEt

avdidot yuyas mad,
300

MENO

soc. I understand the point you would make,
Meno. Do you see what a captious argument
you are introducing—that, forsooth, a man cannot
inquire either about what he knows or about what
he does not know? For he cannot inquire about
what he knows, because he knows it, and in that
case is in no need of inquiry; nor again can he
inquire about what he does not know, since he
does not know about what he is to inquire.

MEN. Now does it seem to you to be a good
argument, Socrates ?

soc. It does not.

meN. Can you explain how not ?

soc. I can; for I have heard from wise men and
women who told of things divine that—

MEN. What was it they said ?

soc. Something true, as I thought, and admirable.

mEN. What was it? And who were the speakers ?

soc. They were certain priests and priestesses
who have studied so as to be able to give a reasoned
account of their ministry; and Pindar also and
many another poet of heavenly gifts. As to their
words, they are these: mark now, if you judge
them to be true. They say that the soul of man is
immortal, and at one time comes to an end, which
is called dying, and at another is born again, but
never perishes. Consequently one ought to live
all one’s life in the utmost holiness.

For from whomsoever Persephone shall accept requital
for ancient wrong,! the souls of these she restores in the
ninth year to the upper sun again; from them arise glorious

1 révOos (** affliction”) in mystic language means some-
thing like ** fall” or ‘‘sin.” These lines are probably from
one of Pindar’s Dirges (Bergk, fr. 133).

VOL. IV L 301

82

PLATO

ex tav BaotAtjes ayavoi

Kat obéver Kpaumvot oogia TE péyrorot

avOpes avgovr’. 1 és d€ tov Aowrov xpdvov 7pwes

ayvot mpos avOpdrwv Kadedvrar.

“Ate obv 7 bvyxi) abavards te obca Kai moAAdKis
yeyovuia, Kal é€wpaxvia Kal ta evOdde Kai Ta
ev “Avdov Kai mavra Xpypata, ovK coTw 6 Te
ov pepdy Kev" WOTE ovdey Bavpaoroy kal mepl
apeTis Kat rept dAAcwv oidv TE elvan avray dva.-
pvnobfvar, ad ye Kal mpdtrepov HmioTraTo. are yap
ths picews amdons ovyyevots ovens, Kab pewa-
Onxvias THs Wuyis aravta, oddev KwAver Ev ovov
dvayvnobevta, 6 81) pabnow Kadotcw dvOpwror,
TaMa mara avrov dvevpety, édv Tis dv8peios i] kal
pa) arroKdpvy Lnrav: TO yap onrety dpa Kal TO
pavOavew dvdpynors GAov eativ. ovKovy det
mreDecBau TOUTW TO eproTiun@ Ady odtos puev
yap av judas dpyovs mounoeve Kal €oTt Tots pada-
Kois TOV avOpaTrwv Hdvs akoboat, dde Sé epya-
aTuKoUs TE Kal Cyrarucovs | moet @ eye moTevuv
aAnbet civar eBedw peta. ood Cnreiv apern 6 Te €orTw.

MEN. Nai, @® Zwxpates: adda mas A€yeus
TovTO, ore od pavOdvopev, aAAa Vy kaAobpev
udbnow dvdpvnats €oTw; €xers pe TOTO Sidaéa
Ws ovTws EXEL;

xa. Kai dpre elmov, & Méwyv, ore _mravodpyos
el, Kal viv €pwrds el EXO. ge ddagar, 6 6s ov dy
didaxny elvae aAn’ dvdpvyow, iva 81 etOds daivw-
pear avros enavT@ tavavria Aéyev.

MEN. Od pe tov Aia, aj Lepares, od mpos
totro Préibas «izov, GAN’ bd tod ous: adr ei
1 avtovr’ Boeckh: avéovra: ss.

302

MENO

kings and men of splendid might and surpassing wisdom,
and for all remaining time are they ed holy heroes
amongst mankind.

Seeing then that the soul is immortal and has been

‘born many times, and has beheld all things both in

this world and in the nether realms, she has acquired
knowledge of all and everything; so that it is no
wonder that she should be able to recollect all
that she knew before about virtue and other things.
For as all nature is akin, and the soul has learned all
things, there is no reason why we should not, by
remembering but one single thing—an act which
men call learning—discover everything else, if we
have courage and faint not in the search; since,
it would seem, research and learning are wholly
recollection. So we must not hearken to that
eaptious argument: it would make us idle, and is
pleasing only to the indolent ear, whereas the other
makes us energetic and inquiring. Putting my trust
in its truth, I am ready to inquire with you into the

_ nature of virtue.

meN. Yes, Socrates, but what do you mean by

_ saying that we do not learn, and that what we call

learning is recollection? Can you instruct me that

this is so?

soc. I remarked just now, Meno, that you are a

_ rogue ; and so here you are asking if I can instruct

you, when I say there is no teaching but only
recollection: you hope that I may be caught
contradicting myself forthwith.

MEN. I assure you, Socrates, that was not my

intention ; I only spoke from habit. But if you can

303

PLATO

mus jor exerts evdeiEacbat, Ste Eyer Womep A€yes,
evderEar.

za. AAA’ €ore pev od pdd.ov, duws dé ebéAw
mpobupn Ojvac ood éevexa. aAdd pou mpooxdAcoov
Tav ToAAdY akodovbwy TovTwri THv cavTod eva,
ovtwwa PovAet, va ev ToUTW cor emidElEwpat.

MEN. Ilavu ye. Sedpo mpdcede.

xa. “ENnv pev eore Kat EAnviler;

MEN. Ilavu ye opddpa, olKoyeviis Ye:

x0. IIpocexe 57) TOV voor, omoTep av oot paivy-
TAL, 7) a dvapipvnoKdpevos 7 pavOdvev trap’ éuod.

MEN. ’AAAa zpocéfw.

xa. Eiwé 84 po, & mat, yeyvboxers terpa-
ywvov xwpiov ort ToLwodTov E€oTWW;

nAIS. “Eywye.

20. “Eorw oby TeTpdywvov xwpiov | toas €xov
Tas ypapypas Tav’Tas mdoas, TéTTapas ovcas;

mais. Ilavu ye.

Od Kat ravtraci tas dua péoov eotiv toas
€xoV;

maiz. Nai. |

x2. Odxodv ein av towodrov ywpiov Kai peilov ©
Kal €Aattov;

naz. Ildvu ye.

30. Et oby ety avTn 7 mreupa. Svoiv mrodotv Kal
auTyn dvoiv, moowy av ein mod@v TO ddov ; Bde
dé oKOTeEL el Hv TavTn Svoiv modoiv, ravrn dé € évos
7od0s povov, GAAo Tt anak av hv dvotv modotv To
xwpiov ;

maiz. Nat.

sa. *Ezeid1) 5é€ Svoiv modoiv Kat tavrn, dAdo
tu 7) Sis Svoiy yiyverat;

304

MENO

somehow prove to me that it is as you say, pray.
do so.

soc. It is no easy matter, but still I am willing
to try my best for your sake. Just call one of your
own troop of attendants there, whichever one you
please, that he may serve for my demonstration.

MEN. Certainly. You, I say, come here.

soc. He is a Greek, I suppose, and speaks Greek P

MEN. Oh yes, to be sure—born in the house.

soc. Now observe closely whether he strikes you
as recollecting or as learning from me.

MEN. I will.

soc. Tell me, boy, do you know that a square
figure is like this ? 1

Boy. I do.

soc. Now, a square figure has these lines, four in
number, all equal ?

Boy. Certainly.

soc. And these, drawn through the middle,’ are
equal too, are they not?

Boy. Yes.

soc. And a figure of this sort may be larger or
smaller ?

Boy. To be sure.

soc. Now if this side were two feet and that also
two, how many feet would the whole be? Or let
me put it thus: if one way it were two feet, and
only one foot the other, of course the space would
be two feet taken once ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. But as it is two feet also on that side, it must
be twice two feet ?

1 Socrates draws in the sand.
* i.e. the middle of each side of the square.

505

83

PLATO

maiz. [iyverar.

x2. Avoiv dpa Sis yiyverar 7oddv;

maz. Nat.

za. [loco odv eialy of S00 Sis mdé8es; dop-
odpevos «ize.

mAIx. Térrapes, @ Lw«pares.

Otxoby yévoir’ av Tovrov Tob xewpiov
erepov SutAdowov, tovodrov S€, ioas €xov macas
Tas ypaypas Womep TobTO;

mars. Nad.

x0. IIdowv obv €ora: rodav;

mAIz. "Oxro.

20. Dépe 57, Treip po etmretv mmrixn Tis €oTat
exeivov 1) yeupa éxdorn. ] pev yap Tobde Svoiv
modo: Ti dé 4) exeivov Tob SirrAaciov;

maiz. A7jAov b9, d a) Udxpares, 6 ort Buirhacte.::

xa. ‘Opas, @ Mevaw, ws eyo ToOTOV ovdev
didoKw, GAN épwrd wavta; Kai viv odros olerat
eld€vat, Omoia cot ad’ 2s TO dKTwmOVV Ywplov
yevncetar’ 7 od Soke? cou;

*Epouye.

sa. Older odv;

MEN. Od dfjra.

xa. Olerau 5é ye amo ris SumAactas;

MEN. Nat.

32. Ocd 8) adrov avapyiuvnokdpevov ede€is,
ws Sel dvapyvjoKecbar. od dé por A€ye: amo
Ths SumAacias ypayphs dis TO SumAdouov xepiov
yiyveoban; Towovoe A€yw, 1) tabry pev paxpov,
Th 5é Bpaxd, adda. tcov ravrayh eoTw wozep TovTi,

306

MENO

Boy. It is.

soc. Then the space is twice two feet ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. Well, how many are twice two feet? Count
and tell me.

Boy. Four, Socrates.

soc. And might there not be another figure twice
the size of this, but of the same sort, with all its sides
equal like this one ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. Then how many feet will it be ?

Boy. Eight.

soc. Come now, try and tell me how long will
each side of that figure be. This one is two feet
long : what will be the side of the other, which is
double in size ?

Boy. Clearly, Socrates, double.

soc. Do you observe, Meno, that I am not teach-
ing the boy anything, but merely asking him each
time ? And now he supposes that he knows about
the line required to make a figure of eight square
feet ; or do you not think he does?

MEN. I do.

soc. Well, does he know ?

MEN. Certainly not.

soc. He just supposes it, from the double size
required ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. Now watch his progress in recollecting, by
the proper use of memory. Tell me, boy, do you
say we get the double space from the double line ?
The space I speak of is not long one way and short
the other, but must be equal each way like this one,

307

PLATO

SumAdotov S€ tovrov, dKTw@movv: GAN’ Spa, et Ert
got amo THs SimAactas SoKe? EoeoOar.

TAIZ. "Kyouye.

20. Otxotv Simdacia atrn tavrns ylyveran,
av érépav tooavTyny mpocbdpev evbevde ;

nar. Ilavu ve.

za. "Aro tavrns 57, dis: €oTat TO OKTWTTOUV
xwpiov, dv rérrapes Tooabra yévwvTar;

maiz. Nat.

=a. "Avaypapapeba / dm’ _weris | toas TeT-
tapas. dAdo Tt} TouTi av etn 6 dis TO OKTwTOUY
elvat;

mais. Ilavu ye.

xa. Odxodv év avr@ €or tavtTl térTapa, wy
ExacTov tcov ToUTW eoTl TH TeTPATIOSL;

maiz. Nat.

sa. IIdcov obv yiyveras; od TeTpaKxis Tooov-
TOV;

mais. [las 8 ov;

za. Avmddovov odv eoti To TeTpaKts TododTOV;

maiz. Od pa Ala.

xo. "AAAd mzocamAdovov;

MAIS. TerpamAdovwov.

xa. ’Anmod tis SumAacias dpa, @ mai, ov ot-
mAdowov GAAa TeTpaTrAdovov yiyverat xwpiov.

mais. "AAnOA Aéyets. ;
zn. Terrdpwv yap tetpakis é€otl éxKaidena.
ovxi; ,

maiz. Nat.

sa. "Oxrdézow 8 amd molas ypappis; odxi
do pev TavTns TeTpaTrAdatov;

mais. Dnpi.
308

MENO

while being double its size—eight square feet. Now
see if you still think we get this from a double length
of line.
Boy. I do.
soc. Well, this line is doubled, if we add here
another of the same length ?
Boy. Certainly.
soc. And you say we shall get our eight-foot space
from four lines of this length ?
Boy. Yes.
soc. Then let us describe the square, drawing
four equal lines of that length. This will be what
you say is the eight-foot figure, will it not ?
Boy. Certainly.
soc. And here, contained in it, have we not four
squares, each of which is equal to this space of four
feet ?
Boy. Yes.
soc. Then how large is the whole? Four times
that space, is it not ?
poy. It must be.
soc. And is four times equal to double ?
soy. No, to be sure.
soc. But how much is it ?
Boy. Fourfold.
soc. Thus, from the double-sized line, boy, we get
a space, not of double, but of fourfold size.
Boy. That is true.
soc. And if it is four times four it is sixteen, is it
“not?
Boy. Yes.
soc. What line will give us a space of eight feet ?
This one gives us a fourfold space, does it not ?
Boy. It does.

VOL. IV L2 309

PLATO

Terpdmovy 5€ amo tis juwcéas tavTynol
TouTi;
maiz. Nai.
za. Elev: ro 85€ dxtadbmovv ob tobde pev b-
mAdovdv €ott, ToUTOV Sé TuULOV;
MAIS. <Nai »”
30. Ovx dro peev peilovos EoTaL 7 Tocatrns
D ypappijs, amo €Aarrovos be 7) } Toonodl; 7 ov;
maiz. “Epwouye Soke? obTws.
~ A / aA ~ > Ud
xa. Kadds: 70 yap cot Soxoby Tobro amoxpivov.
7 / > “4 A ~ a 3 \
Kal pro A€ye* ody Bde prev Svoty modoiv Hv, 7 Se

TETTAPWV ;
/
maiz. Nat.

=a. Act apa TI Tod oKTWwmOd0s xwpiov
YPapny peilen pev elvar rhode Tis ce
eAdttw 5é Tis TeTparoSos.

mars. Ae?.

E xa. Tlep& 8) Aeyew aydrAixnv twa dys adbrip

eivar.

TIAIS. Tpizoda.

xa. Odxodv divmrep Tpimovs H, TO HpLLov Tavrns
mpoohybépeBa Kal €oTau Tplmrous ; dvo pev yap
olde, 6 b€ els: Kal evOévde WoatTws Svo perv olde,
6 5€ eis: Kal yiyveras TobTO TO xwpiov 6 dis.

naz. Nat.

=a. Ovxobv av 7 THde Tpiav Kal THE TPL@V, TO
OAov xwpiov TpLdv Tpis Todd ylyverat;

mais. Waiverac.

xa. Tpets d€ tpis méaot eici 1ddes;

maiz. *Evvéa.

za. “Ede: 5€ 70 SizrAdovov wécwv elvar rodav;

1 Nai om. ss,

310

MENO

soc. And a space of four feet is made from this
line of half the length ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. Very well; and is not a space of eight feet
double the size of this one, and half the size of this
other ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. Will it not be made from a line longer than
the one of these, and shorter than the other ?

soy. I think so.

soc. Excellent: always answer just what you
think. Now tell me, did we not draw this line two
feet, and that four ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. Then the line on the side of the eight-foot
figure should be more than this of two feet, and
‘less than the other of four ?

soy. It should.

soc. Try and tell me how much you would say itis.

soy. Three feet.

soc. Then if it is to be three feet, we shall add
on a half to this one, and so make it three feet?
For here we have two, and here one more, and so
again on that side there are two, and another one ;
and that makes the figure of which you speak.

poy. Yes.

soc. Now if it be three this way and three that
way, the whole space will be thrice three feet, will
it not?

Boy. So it seems.

soc. And thrice three feet are how many ?

Boy. Nine.

soc. And how many feet was that double one to
be?

311

84

PLATO

maiz. “Oxrd.
22. Odd’ dpa amo ris tpimoddés mw TO OKTwTOUY
xwplov yiyverat.
mar. Od dra.
zo. ’AAN’ ao moias; wep jptv eimeiv axpt-
B&s: Kal ei pi) Bovdrer apiOpetv, GAA Seifov azo
Toias.
maiz. "AAAa pa tov Ala, & UeKpates, eywye
ovk olda.
x0. ’Evvoeis ad, & Mévwy, ob é corly 78% Badilew
d5e Too dvapuprnoKeotou ; ; Ott TO pev mp@rov
Hoet pev ov, % Tis EoTW 7 TOD dKTwod0s Ywpiov
7 o Bde ~ 75 dAN’ } ” , >
ypapun, Womep ovde viv Tw older, obv werd y
Bet, * / 2 7 A / > , ¢
abriyy Tore €idévar, Kal Bappadéws ameKpiveTo ws
eidw@s, Kal ody tyetTo amopeiy: viv dé ayetrau
> ~ ow ‘ @ > 29> ”
amopety On, Kat Womep ovK oldev, odd’ oleTat
eideva.
MEN. *AAnOH Aé€yeis.
> ~ ~ / ” ‘ A a a
xa. Odxody viv BéAriov Exer mepi TO TpGypa Oo
odK NOEL;
A a _/ a
MEN. Kai rodro pot Soxe?.
xa. “Aaopeivy oty atrov moimoavres Kal vapKav
donep 7) vapKn, wav te €BAdbapev;
MEN. Ovdx €yovye Soxe?.
z2. IIpotvpyou yodv tm memowjKkapev, ws €ouxe,
mpos TO e€eupetv omy exer viv pev yap Kat CyrH-
” ¢ , > > / / A ¢ , Ba) A
aevev dv Hdéws ovK «cldas, TOTE SE padiws av Kal
‘ A ‘ , ” >. «4 = 4 ‘
mpos moAAods Kai moAAdKis wet av €d A€yew TEpt
Tob SumAaciov ywpiov, ws Se? SimAaciay THY ypap-
pny €xew pyjKer.
312

MENO

Boy. Eight.

soc. So we fail to get our eight-foot figure from
this three-foot line. :

Boy. Yes, indeed.

soc. But from what line shall we get it? Try
and tell us exactly ; ; and if you would rather not
reckon it out, just show what line it is.

poy. Well, on my word, Socrates, I for one do
not know.

soc. There now, Meno, do you observe what
progress he has already made in his recollection ?
At first he did not know what is the line that forms
the figure of eight feet, and he does not know even
now: but at any rate he thought he knew then,
and confidently answered as though he knew, and
was aware of no difficulty ; whereas now he feels the
difficulty he is in, and besides not knowing does not
think he knows.

MEN. That is true.

soc. And is he not better off in respect of the
matter which he did not know ?

meN. I think that too is so.

soc. Now, by causing him to doubt and giving
him the torpedo’s shock, have we done him any
harm ?

MEN. I think not.

soc. And we have certainly given him some
assistance, it would seem, towards finding out the
truth of the matter: for now he will push on in the
search gladly, as lacking knowledge ; whereas then
he would have been only too ready to suppose he
was right in saying, before any number of people
any number of times, that the double space must
have a line of double the length for its side.

313

E

PLATO

MEN. “Eouxev.
xa. Oler ody av adrov mporepov emiyeipfoat
a nn / ~ a ” 0 7 3
{ynteiv 7 pavOdvew totro, 6 metro €idévar ovdK
eiows, mplv eis amoplay KaTémecev tyynodpevos 12)
eldévat, Kal emd0nce TO €idevan;
MEN. OU por Soxe?, & LedKpares.
=a. "“Ovnto dpa vapkyjoas;
MEN. Aoxe? Lot.
za. Lnébar 8) ex tavryns THs dmopias 6 Tt Kal
> ta ~ > Sete) ~ 39. 3 an 2 ~
ayeupjoe Cntr@v pet euod, oddev add’ 7 €pwr@vtos
> lol ‘ > / , A Ld
euod Kat od diddoKovros: pvAatre S€ av mov
eUpns pe SiddoKxovta Kal diekvovra adr@, addAd
pq) Tas ToUTov Sd€as avepwravra.
Aéye ydp por at: od TO pev TeTpdmoUV TodTO
qty €or xwpiov; pavOdveis;
mais. "Eywye.
so. “Erepov 5é€ att@ mpoobeiwey av tovti
ioov;
maiz. Nat.
sa. Kat zpirov 708e toov éxarépw rovTwv;
maiz. Nat.
> ~ * / > a“ ‘ >
sa. Odxotv mpocavarAnpwoauie?” av To ev
TH ywvia Tdd€;
mars. Ilavu ye.
xa. “Ao tu ody yévour’ av térrapa toa xwpia
TAOE;
naiz. Nat,
314

_———

; MENO

MEN. It seems so.

soc. Now do you imagine he would have attempted
to inquire or learn what he thought he knew, when
he did not know it, until he had been reduced to the
perplexity of realizing that he did not know, and had
felt a craving to know?

MEN. I think not, Socrates.

soc. Then the torpedo’s shock was of advantage
to him?

MEN. I think so.

soc. Now you should note how, as a result of this
perplexity, he will go on and discover something by
joint inquiry with me, while I merely ask questions
and do not teach him; and be on the watch to see
if at any point you find me teaching him or ex-
pounding to him, instead of questioning him on his
opinions.

Tell me, boy : here we have a square of four feet,
have we not? You understand ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. And here we add another square? equal to it?

Boy. Yes.

soc. And here a third,® equal to either of them ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. Now shall we fill up this vacant space * in the
corner ?

Boy. By all means.

soc. So here we must have four equal spaces ?

Boy. Yes.

E F SG

: ‘ 1 ABCD. 2 DCFE.
* * CHGF. * BIHC.

A B !

315

PLATO

zo. Ti otv; To ddov t6d€ mocamAdo.ov Tobde
ylyvera;

mAIx. TerpamAdovov.

30, "Eder S€ SutAdovov jyiv yevéoPary 7 od
peuvnoa;

maiz. [ldvu ye.

=a. Odxodv eorw atrn ypaypn ex ywvias eis

85 ywviay Telvovea, Téuvovoa diya exacTov ToUTwWY TOV

Xwpiwv ;

maiz. Nat.

=a. Odxobv rérrapes atrar ylyvovrar ypappat
toa, Teplexovoa tout TO xwpiov;

maiz. [vyvovras yap.

=a. Lower 84° amnydAixov ti éeott tobiro 7d
Xwpiov;

maiz. Od pavOdvw.

xa. Ody tetrdpwv dvtwv Tovrwv juwov EKa-
oTov EKdoTn 7) ypayyn aroTéTUnKEV EVTOS; 7) OU;

mars. Nat.

2a. IIdca obv tyAiKabra ev rovTw eveoTw;

TIAIS. Térrapa.

xa. Idea d€ &v THde;

maiz. Avo.

xa. Ta dé rérrapa rotv Svoiv ti éotw;

maiz. AurAdoua.

B 30. Tdde ody rocdmovr yiyverar;

maiz. “Oxrazovv.

zo. *Azo mrotas ypapes ;

maiz. *Azo TaUTNS.

za. "Amo tijs ex ywvias eis ywviay tewovons
Tov TeTpaTO00s ;

maiz. Nad.
316

can ue La

r= eo

vw 99

rar ee wer UF a

MENO

soc. Well now, how many times larger is this
whole space than this other ?

Boy. Four times.

soc. But it was to have been only twice, you
remember ?

Boy. To be sure.

soc. And does this line! drawn from corner to
corner, cut in two each of these spaces ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. And have we here four equal lines ? contain-
ing this space 3?

Boy. We have.

soc. Now consider how large this space 3 is.

Boy. I do not understand.

soc. Has not each of the inside lines cut off half
of each of these four spaces ?

Boy. Yes.

soc. And how many spaces of that size are thcre
in this part ?

Boy. Four.

soc. And how many in this 4?

Boy. Two.

soc. And four is how many times two ?

Boy. Twice.

soc. And how many feet is this space 5?

Boy. Eight feet.

soc. From what line do we get this figure ?

Boy. From this.

soc. From the line drawn corner-wise across the

four-foot figure ?
Boy. Yes.
? BD. ? BD, DF, FH, HB. 3’ BDFH.
* ABCD. * BDFH.

317

PLATO

xa. Kadotor 5é ye radrnv Sidpertpov of codu-
: > a
oTal* wor «i TavTn Sidpetpos Ovowa, amo THs
/, 4 a
Stapézpov dy, ws od dis, & tat Mévwvos, yiyvour’
av TO SimAdavov xwpiov.
mais. Ildvu pev ody, & Ldkpares.
za. Ti cou doxe?, d Mévwv; Eorw qvrwa d0€av
odx adrod obtos amexpivato;
MEN. Odx, dad’ éavtod.
20. Kat pa odk da ye, ws Epapev dAtyov
TpOTEpov.
> a
MEN. *AAnOF Aéyeis.
> ~ , t en | e / “ »”
=2. Evijoav dé ye adt®@ atbrar at dd€at- 7 ov;
MEN. Nat.
xa. T@ od« ciddts dpa mepi dv av py €idF
” > lal / A 4 e >
évecow aAnbeis Sd€at trept TovTwY dv odK older;
MEN. Qaivera.
A ~ / > ~ oe + *
xo. Kal viv pév ye att womep dvap ape
> , e / > A > ,
dvakexivyvtas ai d0€a adrar: «¢ S€ avrov tis
avepjoerat moAAdKis TA adTa Tara Kal moAAax;,
- > a ~ > A > ~ >
ola” drt teXevTdv ovdevds Frrov axpiBAs em-
OTHCETAL TEplL TOUTWY.
MEN. “Eovuxev.
xo. Odxoty ovdevds diddéavtos GAN’ epwrjcav-
Tos emorTioeTa, avadaBaw adros e€ abtod TH
ETLOTHULYV ;
’
MEN. Nat.
sa. To dé dvadapBdavew adbrov ev abt@ emvory-
pny ovk avapyvioKecbal éorw;
MEN. Ildvv ye.
xo. “Ap” odv od tiv emorhuny, fv vov odros
exer, WoL EAaPE mote 7) dei elyev
MEN. Nat.
318

ENT
3 -

ot

Ue

MENO

soc. The professors call it the diagonal: so if the
diagonal is its name, then according to you, Meno’s
boy, the double space is the square of the diagonal.

Boy. Yes, certainly it is, Socrates.

soc. What do you think, Meno? Was there any
opinion that he did not give as an answer of his
own thought ?

mEN. No, they were all his own.

soc. But you see, he did not know, as we were
saying a while since.

MEN. That is true.

soc. Yet he had in him these opinions, had he
not ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. So that hé who does not know about any
matters, whatever they be, may have true opinions
on such matters, about which he knows nothing ?

MEN. Apparently.

soc. And at this moment those opinions have just
been stirred up in him, like a dream ; but if he were
repeatedly asked these same questions in a variety
of forms, you know he will have in the end as exact
an understanding of them as anyone.

MEN. So it seems.

soc. Without anyone having taught him, and only
through questions put to him, he will understand,
recovering the knowledge out of himself ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. And is not this recovery of knowledge, in
himself and by himself, recollection ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. And must he not have either once acquired
or always had the knowledge he now has?

MEN. Yes. .

319

E

86

PLATO

sa. Odxodv ef perv del elyev, del Kal Hv emorh-
pov et Sé EdaBE wore, odk dv ev ye TH viv Bip
> ‘ ” a“ Us / “~ a
clAndws etn. 7) Sedidaxé Tis ToDTov yewpeTpewv;
odros yap moujoer mepi mdons yewperpias TadTa
ratra, Kal Tav GAAwy pabnudtwy dmdavTwr.
Zorw odv dotis Tobrov mdvta S<didaxe; Sixatos

4, 9 7 »” > 4. *.& ~ ~ o.-7
ydp mov ef ciddvar, ddAws Te érerdy) Ev TH Off olKia
yéyove Kat TEOparrrat.

mEN. "AAW olda éywye Stu ovddels mubmoTe
edidakev.

xa. "Eyer 5é ravras tas Sdéas, 7) odxt;

> td > / /

MEN. ’Avdyxn, ® Lodxpares, pawwerat.

A ~ '
so. El 8é pi) ev TO viv Bim AaBay, od« 75H
~ a id > “y y / ¢ \

tobro Sijtov, ote ev GAAw Tw xXpovwp Elxe Kat
ewewabyKet;
MEN. Waiveraw.
> ~ me 4 | ae c , 7 2 > oy
xn. Odxodv odrds yé eotw 0 xpovos, OT OUK HV
avOpwros ;
Ud
MEN. Nat.
‘ A
so. Ei odv ov 7° av" # xpdvov Kal dv av ph Fh
+ : Ave 4 > a > ~ / a> ,
dvOpwros, evécovrat adr@ adnbets S0far, at epwr7-
cet exeyepbeioar emiorhar yiyvovTat, dp’ obv TOV
det xpdvov penabyxvia era 7 ux avrod;
~ v
SHAov yap Ste Tov mdvTA Xpovov €oTw 7 ovK EoTW
avOpwros.
,
MEN. Wawverat.
sa. Odxotv ef det 4 dAjOea qty tTOv dvTwr
> A > ~ ~ > 4, 2 bas ¢ \ ” Ld
cotly ev TH px, a0dvatos av n Yuxn €ty, woTE
~ > / ~
Oappobvra xpi}, o pi) Tuyxdvers emoTapevos VUV,
~ > a“ ~
zobro 8 eotiv & yu) wenvynpevos, emxerpeiv Cnretv
Kat avapyvioKkecbar;
1 gy 7’ av Baiter: 8rav, 67’ Gy MSS.
320

rs ee

MENO

soc. Now if he always had it, he was always in
a state of knowing; and if he acquired it at some
time, he could not have acquired it in this life.
Or has someone taught him geometry? You see,
he can do the same as this with all geometry and
every branch of knowledge. Now, can anyone have
taught him all this? You ought surely to know,

especially as he was born and bred in your house.

mEN. Well, I know that no one has ever taught
him.
soc. And has he these opinions, or has he not ?

mEN. He must have them, Socrates, evidently.

soc. And if he did not acquire them in this present
life, is it not obvious at once that he had them and
learnt them during some other time ?

MEN. Apparently.

soc. And this must have been the time when he
was not a human being?

MEN. Yes.

soc. So if in both of these periods—when he was
and was not a human being—he has had true opinions
in hith which have only to be awakened by question.
ing to become knowledge, his soul must have had
this cognisance throughout all time? For clearly
he has always either been or not been a human being.

MEN. Evidently.

soc. And if the truth of all things that are is
always in our soul, then the soul must be immortal ;
so that you should take heart and, whatever you do
not happen to know at present—that is, what you
do not remember—you must endeavour to search
out and recollect ?

321

PLATO

MEN. Ed pro Soxeis A€yew, @ UedKpares, odK
old” Srrws.
xa. Kai yap éyad euoit, 6 Mévwv. Kai ra pév
»” > ba) / ec A ~ , /
ye dAAa obk av ravu brép Tob Adyou Sucyxvpicaipny:
Y > 97 a a a 4 yy
ott 5° oidpevor Seiv Cyreiv, & 7 Tis olde, BeATiovs
dv elwev Kal dvdpixwrepor Kal Arrov dpyol 7 e€t
bm “a \ > /, A ‘
oloiweba, a pn) emtoTaueba, pndé Svvarov elva
A a a a
edpeiv unde Seiv Cnreiv, wept tovTov mavu av dia-
paxoimnyv, ei olds Te einv, Kal Adyw Kal Epyw.
MEN. Kai todro peév ye Soxeis por ed A€yew, @
LwxKpares.
~ 4
22. BovAeu obv, €mer07) +Opovoodpev, OTL on-
TNTEOV mept ob ay) Tus oldev, erixeipjowper KOWT
{nretv ti mor’ orw dpern ;
MEN. IIdvy pev odv. od perro, ® Led«pares,
2 a nz \
GAN’ eyoye €xeivo av jouora, Srrep Tpouny 70
mpa@rov, Kal _oKepatuny Kal dxovoaype, TOTEpoV
as didaxT@ ove avr de? emixetpety, q as doe
7 ws Tie more TpoTmw Tapayryvouerns Tots avOpa-
Trois Tis dperijs.
za. °AAN ei pev eyo APXOV & Mawr, Ta)
pidvov éuavtod aGAAd Kal cod, ovk av eoxepapeba
> ,
mpotepov etre SidaKrov elre ov SidaKTOv 7 apeTy,
A Ad ” ~ > / > / > A be
mpl 6 Tu €oT. mp@rov elnryicapev adrd: émerd7 de
~ a A
od ocavTod pev ovd emixempeis apyew, Wa 87
_ ~ a \
eAcvbepos is, euod Sé emuyepeis Te apYew Kal
Gpxels, ovyxwpycopai cou Ti yap xpr Toveiv;
éouxev ody oKemréov elvat, motov Ti éoTw 6 prTw

1 Socrates characteristically pretends to be at the mercy
of the wayward young man.

322

arse ee =~ * “™/ «

—

As
RE Cet

i ee

oer

a

MENO

MEN. What you say commends itself to me,
Socrates, I know not how.

soc. And so it does to me, Meno. Most of the
points I have made in support of my argument are
not such as I can confidently assert; but that the
belief in the duty of inquiring after what we do not
know will make us better and braver and less help-
less than the notion that there is not even a possi-
bility of discovering what we do not know, nor any
duty of inquiring after it—this is a point for which
I am determined to do battle, so far as I am able,
both in word and deed.

MEN. There also I consider that you speak aright,
Socrates.

soc. Then since we are of one mind as to the duty
of inquiring into what one does not know, do you
agree to our attempting a joint inquiry into the
nature of virtue ?

MEN. By all means. But still, Socrates, for my
part I would like best of all to examine that question
I asked at first, and hear your view as to whether
in pursuing it we are to regard it as a thing to be
taught, or as a gift of nature to mankind, or as
arriving to them in some other way which I should
be glad to know.

soc. Had I control over you, Meno, as over
myself, we should not have begun considering
whether virtue can or cannot be taught until we
had first inquired into the main question of what
it is. But as you do not so much as attempt to
control yourself—you are so fond of your liberty—
and both attempt and hold control over me, I will
yield to your request—what else am I to do? So
it seems we are to consider what sort of thing it is of

323

87

PLATO

” ov ” > / ad 3 A , ’
iowev 6 TL EoTW. ef pay TL OdV GAAA opuKpOV yé
~ > lon / \ 7 > e
prow THs apxis xdAacov, Kal cvyxwpynoov e€ tro-
/, PB a ” / > ”
Ogcews atdto oKxoreicba, cite SidaKrdév éotw elite
~ ‘
omwoobv. rA€yw dé ro &€ brobecews Bde, Worep
e / / ~ > /
ot yewuetpar mroAAdKis oKoTrobyTat, emevddy Tis
” > 4 4 , > / >
Epyntat adrovs, olov mepi ywpiov, et oldv te és
/ \ /, / A , LA >
Tovde Tov KUKAoY Tdd€ TO xXWwWpiov Tpiywvov eév-
load ” ” a wv ee a
Tabjvar, eto. av Tis OTL OUTW oida Ef EaTL TODTO
~ > > LA tA ¢€ / A
towobrov, aN’ worep péev twa brdbeow mpotpyou
> ” \ ‘ A , . > s
oluar €xew mpos TO mpayya Tordvde. et pev
€oTt TodTO TO xwplov ToLodrov, olov mapa tiv
a“ ~ /
Sobcicav adrod ypaypry mapareivavta €AXeizew
’ \ \
TOLOvTw xXwpiw, olov av avTo TO TapareTapevov
/ , a
9, aAAo tt ovpBaivew wor doKxet, Kal GAXo ad, «i
> 4, / > ~ an ¢€ , >
advvatov eat. tatra mabetv: dtrolguevos ody
207 > ~ A a A ~ > ,
eOéAw eizety cor TO ovpBatvov meEpi THs evtdcews
> ~ > ‘ / ” > uA ww rd
avrod eis tov KvKdAov, etre advvatov eite pn.
” A \ ‘ > ~ e cal > \ > ”
ovtw 5 Kai mept aperis jets, érevd7) ok loner
> a Ul > > ¢ al e / > ‘
ov? 6 ti eoTw ov? dmoidv TL, brobeuevor adro
~ ww ‘ ” > / 3
okom@pev etre Sidaxrov etre od SidaKTdv eartw,
* , > ae BESS A \ \
@de A€yovres: ef moidv ti €oTe THY TEpi Tip
A »” > / \ ” ” ”“ > ,
ux ovTwy apety, Svdaxrov av etn 7) od SidaKrdv;
a ‘ > > om BY > ,
mp@tov pev ef Eotw aAdoiov 7 olov emorrun,
324

Pi) ha
é

Pe a eT eye a ee ee ee

MENO

which we do not yet know what it is! Well, the
least you can do is to relax just a little of your
authority, and allow the question — whether virtue
comes by teaching or some other way—to be
examined by means of hypothesis. I mean by hypo-
thesis what the geometricians often do in dealing
with a question put to them; for example, whether
a certain area is capable of being inscribed as a
triangular space in a given circle: they reply—
“T cannot yet tell whether it has that capability ;
but I think, if I may put it so, that I have a certain
helpful hypothesis for the problem, and it is as
follows: If this area! is such that when you apply
it to the given line? of the circle you find it falls
short * by a space similar to that which you have
just applied, then I take it you have one conse-
quence, and if it is impossible for it to fall so, then
some other. Accordingly I wish to put a hypothesis,
before I state our conclusion as regards inscribing
this figure in the circle by saying whether it is im-
possible or not.” In the same way with regard to our
question about virtue, since we do not know either
what it is or what kind of thing it may be, we had
best make use of a hypothesis in considering whether
it can be taught or not, as thus: what kind of thing
must virtue be in the class of mental properties, so
; as to be teachable or not? In

. = > * the first place, if it is something
/_ 1 The problem seems to be that
of inscribing in a circle a triangle

. C : (BDG) equal in area to a given
rectangle (ABCD).
2 i.e. the diameter (BF).
3 i.e. falls short of the rectangle on

S the diameter (ABFE).

325

PLATO

dpa didaxrov 7) ov," 7) 6 vov 57) edeyonen, 4 dvapynorov:
Svadepérw dé pndev Hpeiv orroTepyy av TO ovopare
xpwpcba add” dpa didaxtov; 7 TobTd ye mavTi
d7Arov, drt ovdev adAo SiddoKerar avOpwros 7
EMLOTHUNY 5

MEN. “Epouye Soxet.

xo. Ei d¢€ Y €orly emLoTHLN Tis 7 apeTH, SHAov
Ort SudaKTov a dv ety.

sa Ilds yap od;

Tovrov pev dpa raxv amnrMAdypeBa, ort

abe fev vTos SidaKrov, ToLobde 8’ ov.

MEN. Ilavu yer

3a. To 57) pera TobrTo, os EouKe, | det oxépacbat,
morepov coTw émoTHLy u) dpeT?) 7 GAAoiov ém-
oT HENS.

MEN. “Epouye Soke? totro peta TodTO oKeTTEov
elvae.

=0. Te be 57; dAXo Tt
elvar THY GpeTiVy, Kal avrn
ayabov atro elvan;

MEN. Ilavu pev ovv.

=0. Ovxoby él pev wt éorw deyaBov _ kal Mo
xwprlopevov emuoTnuns, Tax’ av ein 7 dpery) obi
emioTnun Tis: el de _pndev €oTw ayabov, 6 ovK
emor npn) TEpPLEXEL, emLoT HY av tw avro br-
omrevovtes €ivar ophas & dromTevourev.

MEN. “Kot tadra.

sa. Kai py dperh y’ copev adyaboi;

MEN. Nai.

so. Ei 8€ dyaboi, ddéApor- mavra yap ayaba
adperAyua. odxi;

MEN. Nat.
$26

”“ > A > “g
7 ayabov adbro dapev
% brd0eos péever piv,

MENO

dissimilar or similar to knowledge, is it taught or
not—or, as we were saying just now, remembered ?
Let us have no disputing about the choice of a name:
is it taught? Or is not this fact plain to everyone
—that the one and only thing taught to men is
knowledge ?

MEN. I agree to that.

soc. Then if virtue is a kind of knowledge, clearly
it must be taught ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. So you see we have made short work of this
question—if virtue belongs to one class of things it
is teachable, and if to another, it is not.

MEN. To be sure.

soc. The next question, it would seem, that we
have to consider is whether virtue is knowledge,
or of another kind than knowledge.

mEN. I should say that is the next thing we have
to consider.

soc. Well now, surely we call virtue a good thing,
do we not, and our hypothesis stands, that it is
good ?

MEN. Certainly we do.

soc. Then if there is some good apart and separable
from knowledge, it may be that virtue is not a kind
of knowledge ; but if there is nothing good that is
not embraced by knowledge, our suspicion that
virtue is a kind of knowledge would be well founded.

MEN. Quite so.

soc. Now it is by virtue that we are good ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. And if good, profitable; for all good things
are profitable, are they not?

MEN. Yes.

327

§8

B

PLATO

‘

xa. Kat 4 dperi 8) &féAmdv éorw;

MEN. “Avdykn ex TOV wuodoynpevw.

xn. LKepayeba 87) Kal? €xactov dvadap-

/ a ~ A
Bavovtes, moid é€oTw a yuds wdede?. tByleva,
dapev, Kat loxds Kal KdAdos Kal mdodros 87:
Tatra A€youev Kai Ta ToLatTa WhéeAywa. ovdyt;

MEN. Nat.

xa. Tatra 5€ tatra dapev eviote kal BAdmrew
n \ GAA \ ”“ LA
7 avd addAws dys 7 ovTws;

MEN. Ouvx, aAd’ ovTws.

, , bi , ihe ,

=a. Udrer 87, Srav ti ێxdoTov TovTwr
SaaS > a ¢ ~ \@ , / > >
HyAta, dderAc? Huds, kai ray ri; BAdmret; ap’ ody
a A > \ a > a a A / ,
Grav ev Oph) xpiows, wherc?, drav dé uy, PAdrreEL;

MEN. Ilavu ye.

xo. “Er toivyy kal Ta Kata tiv ux oKe-
depeba. awhpootvnv te Kadeis Kal Sucaroodvny
Kal avdpeiay Kal eduabiav Kal pviunv Kal peyado-
mpémevay Kal mdvTa Ta ToLadTa;

MEN. "Eywye.

=o. Lkdmer 5H, Tovrwy drta cot SoKet ju)
> / > > PY »” > 7 > 2. § A
emoTHun €lvar add’ aAAo emoTHns, et OdXL TOTE

a / A A > cal > , > \
prev BAramre, Tore 5€ wdheAc7; ofov avdpeia, et wy
€ott dpdvyois 7 avdpela add’ ofov Odappos ti odx
étav pev avev vod Oapph avOpwros, BAdmrerat,
otav S€ odv vO, whedeirar;

MEN. Nat.

sn. Odnotv kal awdpootvn doatrws Kal ed-
pabia: peta pev vod Kal pavOavdueva Kat KarT-
apruopeva wherAyia, avev Sé vod BrAaBepa;
328

ee

a

MENO

soc. So virtue is profitable ?

MEN. That must follow from what has been
admitted.

soc. Then let us see, in particular instances,
what sort of things they are that profit us. Health,
let us say, and strength, and beauty, and wealth—
these and their like we call profitable, do we not?

MEN. Yes.

soc. But these same things, we admit, actually
harm us at times ; or do you dispute that statement ?

MEN. No, I agree.

soc. Consider now, what is the guiding condition
in each case that makes them at one time profitable,
and at another harmful. Are they not profitable
when the use of them is right, and harmful when it
is not?

MEN. To be sure.

soc. Then let us consider next the goods of the
soul: by these you understand temperance, justice,
courage, intelligence, memory, magnanimity, and
so forth?

MEN. Yes.

soc. Now tell me; such of these as you think are
not knowledge, but different from knowledge—do
they not sometimes harm us, and sometimes profit us ?
For example, courage, if it is courage apart from
prudence, and only a sort of boldness: when a man
is bold without sense, he is harmed; but when he
has sense at the same time, he is profited, is he not ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. And the same holds of temperance and
intelligence: things learnt and co-ordinated with
the aid of sense are profitable, but without sense they
are harmful ?

329

PLATO

C men. IIldvy odddpa.
=a. Ovxodv ovdAnBdnv mavra. 7a Tijs poxiis
emiXelpnara Kal KapTepyuara Hyoupevns peev
povijaews eis evdayioviay teAevTa, adpootvyys
8° eis todvavtiov;
MEN. "Eouxev.
sa. Ei a, dpa. diperi) TOv ev TH puyh ti eore kat
dvaykaiov att@ wdeAiuw elvar, ppdovnow avTo
bei elvat, erevdijrrep madre. Ta Kara ST yuyny
avra, pev Kal? abra ovte WheAya ovre BAaBepa
€oTL, mpooyevopevns dé Ppovrjcews 7 adpoovyns
D BraBepa Te Kal wdhddAyia yiyverau. Kara
TovTov TOV Adyov wpeAyov ye odcay Thy apeTiV
ppovnow de? rw’ elvar.
MEN. "Epovye Soxei.
=a. Kai pev 57) Kal 7aMa, a viv 57) eAéyopev,
mAobrov Te Kal Ta _Tovabra, TOTE pev ayaba. Tore
dé BraBepa elva, 4 dp’ ovy worrep Th aAAn puxi v7)
Ppovnots Hyoupern wopeAyua TO. Ths puxijs motel,
E 7 dé appootvy BraBepa, ovTus av Kat ToUTOLS 1)
puxn 6pbas pev Xpwuern Kal Wyovpevrn wdeAysa
adra motel, 47) 6pO@s dé BrAaBepa;
min Ilavu ye.
‘Op8as dé ye 7) Eudpwv ryeirar, Auapty-
As a s a ddpow 5
MEN. “Kore Tabra.
=a. Odxody otrw 57) KaTa mdvrew ciety
€ort, TO avOpurw Ta pev GAXa mavTa eis Ty
buy dvnprijabas, Ta de THs poxis avrijs eis
89 dpdvynow, «i pedree dyaba elvas* Kal TovT@ 7
Aoyep dpdvnais av ein 76 ddhéAysov- dapev Se Thy
apeTny wpeAyov elvar;
330

+

ae

a ae a et

———

MENO

MEN. Most certainly.

soc. And in brief, all the undertakings and
endurances of the soul, when guided by wisdom,
end in happiness, but when folly guides, in the
opposite ?

MEN. So it seems.

soc. Then if virtue is something that is in the
soul, and must needs be profitable, it ought to be
wisdom, seeing that all the properties of the soul
are in themselves neither profitable nor harmful,
but are made either one or the other by the addition
of wisdom or folly ; and hence, by this argument,
virtue being profitable must be a sort of wisdom.

MEN. I agree.

soc. Then as to the other things, wealth and the
like, that we mentioned just now as being some-
times good and sometimes harmful—are not these
also made profitable or harmful by the soul accord-
ing as she uses and guides them rightly or wrongly :
just as, in the case of the soul generally, we found
that the guidance of wisdom makes profitable the
properties of the soul, while that of folly makes
them harmful ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. And the wise soul guides rightly, and the
foolish erroneously ?

MEN. That is so.

soc. Then may we assert this as a universal
rule, that in man all other things depend upon the
soul, while the things of the soul herself depend
upon wisdom, if they are to be good; and so by
this account the profitable will be wisdom, and
virtue, we say, is profitable ?

331

PLATO

MEN. Ilavu ye.

20. Dpdvnow dpa dapev dperiy dine: Hroe
ovpTacayv 7 pépos TL;

MEN. Aoxe? pot kadds déyeobar, & UwKpares,
Ta Aeyopeva.

OtvKcoby «i taira otrws exer, ovK ay elev

dvoet of ayabol.

MEN. OU pot Soxe?.

B 30. Kaiyap dv mov kai 768° Fv: et ddoer oi dya-
Bot eyiyvovro, jody mou dy mye ot eylyvwoKov
Tov véwy Tovs ayabodvs tas dices, ods Tuets av
mrapadaBovres éxeivwy amodynvavtwy éedvrarropev
ev dxporonet, KaTaonpnvdpevor ToAd paAAov 7 TO
xpvolov, iva _ Badets avrovs Suepierpev, aA’ émrevd1)
adixowTo eis Thy HAiKiav, xpHoyor yiyvowTa Tais
moAcow.

MEN. Eixds yé tov, & Lwxpares.
za. *Ap’ oby ered) od ddaer of ayabot ayabot

C yiyvovtar, dpa pabyoer;

MEN. Aoxe? pou 75n avayKatov etvar: Kai SHAov,
@® Lawxpates, kata THhv brdbeow, eimep Emory
cotlv apety, OTe SidaKTov eoTw.

xo. “lows vi Ata: dAda jut) TodTO od Kadds
wpodoyrjoaper ;

MEN. Kai pur eddxer ye dpre Kadds AéyeoPar.

xa. *AAAa pr) odK ev TH dptt povov Sen adbro
Soxeitv Kadds Adyecar, aAAaG Kai ev TH viv Kat
ev T@ Errerta, et preAAee Tt adToo Byres Elva.

D men. Ti ody 54; mpos ti Brew Svcxepaives
avTo Kal amaTets wt) ODK emLOTHUN 7) 7) ApETH;

332

MENO

men. Certainly.

soc. Hence we conclude that virtue is either |
wholly or partly wisdom ?

MEN. It seems to me that your statement,

Socrates, is excellent.

soc. Then if this is so, good men cannot be good
by nature.
MEN. I think not.
soc. No, for then, I presume, we should have had
this result: if good men were so by nature, we
surely should have had men able to discern who of
the young were good by nature, and on. their point-
ing them out we should have taken them over and
kept them safe in the citadel, having set our mark
on them far rather than on our gold treasure, in
_ order that none might have tampered with them,
__ and that when they came to be of age, they might be
_ useful to their country.

MEN. Yes, most likely, Socrates.

soc. So since it is not by nature that the good
become good, is it by education ?

MEN. We must now conclude, I think, that it is ;
and plainly, Socrates, on our hypothesis that virtue
_ is knowledge, it must be taught.

_ soc. Yes, I daresay; but what if we were not
_ right in agreeing to that ?

MEN. Well, it seemed to be a correct statement
a moment ago.

soc. Yes, but not only a moment ago must it seem
_ correct, but now also and hereafter, if it is to be at
all sound.

MEN. Why, what reason have you to make a
difficulty about it, and feel a doubt as to virtue being
knowledge ?

VOL. IV M 333

90

PLATO

‘Eye oot ep, @ Meévaw. TO. pev yap
sidaxrdy adro elvar, eimep emoTHun carly, ov
avaTibeyar pr) 00 Kars Héyeoar- Ste 8° ovdK
€oTw emorTiun, oKepar eav aor doK@ eikdTws
amoteiv. Tdde yap pou eimé- et Eotr SidaKxrov
oTioby mpaypa, 2) povov dpeTH, odK avayKatov
adrod Kat SidackdAous Kai wabyras elvar;

MEN. “Ewovye Soxe?.

2a. Odxoty todvarriov ab, od pire SiddoKadot
pyre pabyral elev, Kadlds av atro ecixdlovtes
eikalouev pur) Sidaxrov elvar;

MEN. “Kort taira: add’ dperis SiddoKado. od
Soxobai cou elvar;

xa. TlodAdkis yotv C(ntadv, ef twes elev adrijs
diddorado, mdvta rodv od Svvayar ecvpeiv.
Kaito. peta ToAA@y ye CnTd, Kai Tovrwy pdAora,
ods dv olwpat eutreipordatous elvar Too mpdyparos.
kal 87) Kal viv, & Mévwy, eis Kaddv jyiv “Avuros
d8¢ mapexabelero, @ perad@pmev Tijs Cnrjoews.
eikoTws 8° av peradoijev- “Avutos yap od mprov
peev €ore maTpos mAovoiov TE Kal cogob "Avepion-
vos, Os éyéveTo movatos od amo Too adropdrou
ovde ddévros Twés, worrep 6 vov vewort eiAndws
Ta. TloAukpdrous Xpypara “Topnvias 6 @nBaios,
aA mH abrod codgia KTNOGpEVOS Kal érereia,
eveita Kal Ta GAAa ody Urrepnpavos Soxadv elvar
moNirns ovde oyKwons Te Kal eraxOys, aNd
Kéopuos Kal evoTadrs avip: emevra TobTov €d
COpeyse Kal emaidevoev, ws Soxet “AOnvaiwy TO

1 A democratic leader at Thebes who assisted Anytus
and the other exiled Athenian democrats in 403 s.c., shortly

334

eet hs

SPA re ere’

Sat.

ug ae

MENO

soc. I will tell you, Meno. I do not withdraw
as incorrect the statement that it is taught, if it is
knowledge ; but as to its being knowledge, consider
if you think I have grounds for misgiving. For tell me
now: if anything at all, not merely virtue, is teach-
able, must there not be teachers and learners of it ?

MEN. I think so.

soc. Then also conversely, if a thing had neither
teachers nor learners, we should be right in surmising
that it could not be taught ?

mEN. That is so: but do you think there are no
teachers of virtue ?

soc. I must say I have often inquired whether
there were any, but for all my pains I cannot find
one. And yet many have shared the search with
me, and particularly those persons whom I regard
as best qualified for the task. But look, Meno:

-_ here, at the very moment when he was wanted, we

have Anytus sitting down beside us, to take his
share in our quest. And we may well ask his
assistance ; for our friend Anytus, in the first place,
is the son of a wise and wealthy father, Anthemion,
who became rich not by a fluke or a gift—like that
man the other day, Ismenias! the Theban, who
has come into the fortune of a Polycrates*—but as the
product of his own skill and industry *; and secondly,
he has the name of being in general a well-conducted,
mannerly person, ne insolent towards his fellow-
citizens or arrogant snd annoying; and further,
he gave his son a good upbringing and education,
as the Athenian people think, for they choose him

before their return to Athens and the supposed time of this
dialogue (about 402 B.c.). Cf. Rep. i. 336 a.

63 t of Samos about 530 B.c. Cf. Herodot. iii.
39 foll. ® As a tanner.

PLATO “4

mAnGer aipodvrar yodv abrov emt Tas peyloras
dpxds. dixaov 81) pera Toovron fnrety dperijs
mépl SWackddrovs, Elr eloWw ELTE HA), Kal oirwes. ;
avd ovv Hiv, @ "Avute, ovlyrnaov, ewoi Te Kal TO
cavtod ev Mevwn Hd, wept Tov’Tou Tob mpay-

atos, Tives av elev SiddoKador. de Sé oxefary
ei Bovdoiueba Mévwva tévde ayabdv iatpov yevécbar,

C mapa tivas dv avrov méuromev didacKddAovs;

dp ov mapa Tovs iatpovs;

AN. Ildvu ye.

za. Ti & ef oxvrordpov ayalov BovAoipeba
yeveobat, dp’ od mapa Tovs oKUTOTOMOUS ;

/

or

aN. Nai.
za. Kai raéAdXa otrws;
an. Ilavv ye. .

xa. “Ode 54 por wddw wept tdv adraéyv eine.
mapa Tovs iatpovs, dayev, méumovres Tovde
~ a“ > 4 Bs. > ‘ ta
KaA@s av éméutrowev, BovrAdpevor iatpov yeveoBat:
D dp’ drav rotro Aéywyev, Tdde Adyomev, Ott Tapa
TovTous méumovtes attov owdpovotwev av, Tovs
dvTimovoupevous TE THS Téxvns paAAov 7 Tovs
Hy, Kal Tovs puoldv mpartouevous en atta
A > / e A / ~
TovTwW, amogdyvavtas avtovs didacKdAous Tod
A
Bovdropévov idvas te Kal pavOdvew; dp od mpos
~ / ~ n” /
tabra Brépavres KaA@s av méuTropev;
an. Nai.
=a. Odxodv Kal mepi atAjcews Kal TOv addAwv
Ta atta Tatra; odd} dvoud €or BovAopevous
E atAnriy twa movfjoa Tapa pe Tovs dmuaxvoupe-
vous dda ev TH réxvnv Kal pobov mparropevous
17) Oéhew méutrew, GAAou dé TLL mpaypara
mapéexew, Cntobvta pavOavew mapa Tovtwr, of
336

een A | &.

MENO

for the highest offices. This is the sort of man to
whom one may look for help in the inquiry as to
whether there are teachers of virtue or not, and
who they may be. So please, Anytus, join with
me and your family-friend Meno in our inquiry
about this matter—who can be the teachers. Con-
sider ¢ thus: if we wanted Meno here to be a good
doctor, to whom should we send him for instruction ?
Would it not be to the doctors ?

an. Certainly.

soc. And if we wanted him to become a good
cobbler, should we not send him to the cobblers ?

AN. Yes.

soc. And in the same way with every other
trade ?

an. Certainly.

soc. Now let me ask you something more about
these same instances. We should be right, we say,
in sending him to the doctors if we wanted him
to be a doctor. When we say this, do we mean
that we should be wise in sending him to those
who profess the art rather than those who do
not, and to those who charge a fee for the particular
thing they do, as avowed teachers of anyone who
wishes to come and learn of them? If these
were our reasons, should we not be right in sending
him ?

an. Yes.

soc. And the same would hold in the case of flute-
playing, and so on with the rest? What folly, when
we wanted to make someone a flute-player, to refuse
to send him to the professed teachers of the art,
who charge a regular fee, and to bother with requests
for instruction other people who neither set up to

337

91

B

C

PLATO

pare mpoomrowbvTat SiSdoxador elva pyr’ eorw
abray pabyrns pndets tovrov Tob pabrparos,
6 pets dfvobprev pavOdve map adra@v dv av
TéuTw@pev. ov ToAAy cor Soxet aAoyia elvat;

AN. Nai pa Ata guouye, kal apabia ye mpds.

=a. Kadds A€yets. vov Totvwy efeort oe
per” euod Kowh} BovreveoBau mrepl Tob * Eévov
toutovt Mévwvos. ovdtos yap, @ “Avute, mdaAat
Aéyer mpds pe, Ste emupet tavrns THs oodias
Kal apeThs, 7 ot avOpwmor tds Te oikias Kal
tas dA Kadds Storkotor, Kal tovs ‘yoveas
tovs adta@v Yeparevtovar, Kal moXitas Kai ێvous
brodeEacbai re Kal drromrepapau emioravrat agiws
dvbpos dyabob. Travrny obv TH dperiy <pabnod-
pevov>* oxkdzret Tapa. tivas av TE[LTTOVTES avrov
opbas TE [LTOULED. 7 dfjAov 5 KaTa TOV pre
Adyov, OTL Tapa TovToUs Tovs dmuaxvoupevous
dperijs dudacKkdAous etvar Kail amodyvavtas abrovs
Kowovs Trav ‘EMjvov TO Bovropevep pavOavew,
purobov TovTou ratapevous Te Kat TMPATTOMEVOVS ;

AN. Kai tivas Aéyeus TovTous, @ LaKpares ;

20. Olcba Syov Kat ot, drt ovTot ciow
ovs of i dvOpwrrot Kadobdot copuords.

AN. ,Hpdxhes, jedprper, @ LeKpares. padeva
Tov y enor" pyre oixeloy pare dirwr, pajre
dorov pajre Eévov, tTowvrn pavia AdBou, WOTE
Tapa. TovTous eAOovra AwBn Piva, eel odTOL ye
pavepa €ott AwBn te Kai Siadfopa tav ovy-
yuyvopevwv.

za. Ids Adyeirs, & "Avute; obd7or apa povot

1 uabnoduevor intercidisse coni. Cobet.
2 ¥ éuév Burnet: yeudr, cvyyevGy Mss.
338

Ste 6 iS ain aes

MENO

be teachers nor have a single pupil in that sort of
study which we expect him, when sent, to pursue !
Do you not consider this would be _ grossly
unreasonable ?

an. Yes, on my word, I do, and stupid to boot.

soc. Quite right. And now there is an oppor-
tunity of your joining me in a consultation on my
friend Meno here. He has been declaring to me
ever so long, Anytus, that he desires to have that
wisdom and virtue whereby men keep their house
or their city in good order, and honour their parents,
and know when to welcome and when to speed
citizens and strangers as befits a good man. Now
tell me, to whom ought we properly to send him
for lessons in this virtue? Or is it clear enough,
from our argument just now, that he should go to
these men who profess to be teachers of virtue and
advertise themselves as the common teachers of
the Greeks, and are ready to instruct anyone
who chooses in return for fees charged on a fixed
scale ?

an. To whom are you referring, Socrates ?

soc. Surely you know as well as anyone; they
are the men whom people call sophists.

AN. For heaven’s sake hold your tongue, Socrates !
May no kinsman or friend of mine, whether of this
city or another, be seized with such madness as to
let himself be infected with the company of those
men; for they are a manifest plague and corrup-
tion to those who frequent them. :

soc. What is this, Anytus? Of all the people

1 Anytus’ vehemence expresses the hostility of the
ordinary practical democrat, after the restoration of 403 z.c.,
‘towards any novel movement in the state.

339

PLATO

TOv dyruTrovoupeveny Tt extoracbat evepyeret
Togobrov TOV dAAwy Svadépovow, doov ov povov
otk wheAobow, aorep ot ddA, 6 Tt av Tis avrots
mapao®, aAAa Kal To evavtiov Sd.iadbeipovor;
Kat TOUTE pavepas Xpnpara a€vodat mpdrreabas ;
eye prev odv odK exw Omws cor moTedow olda
yap avdpa eva. IIpwrayopav meio xpHpwara
KTNOGpevov amo TavTyns THs cogias 7 H Dediav Te,
ds ovTw mepupavads KaAa epya eipydlero, Kat
dAXous S€xa T&v avdpiavtroToMv: Kaito. Tépas
Aéyets, ef of prev Ta trodjpara epyalopevor Ta
mada Kal Ta tuatia eLaKovpevot ovK av SvvaivTo
Aabetv tpidxovi’ jpépas woxPnpdrepa aodiddvtes
q trapéAaBov ra iuarid Te Kal drodjpata, add’ <i
Toadra motley, Taxd av TH Aww arolavorev,
IIpwraydpas be dpa OAnv TH ‘EMdda eAdvOave
Siadbetpwv TOUS ovyytyvonevous Kal poxOnpore-
pous drromépmey 7 TapeAdpBave mA€ov 7 TeTTA-
pdkovta €Tn* oluat yap avrov amobaveiv éeyyds
kat €BdourKovTa €Tn ‘YyeyovoTa, TeTTapdKovTa
d€ ev tH Téxvn OvTa’ Kal ev amavTs TO xpovw
ToUTw ETL els THY Tuepay TavTnvi evdoKy.@v
ovddev mémavrae Kal ov povov IIpwraydpas,
dAAd. Kat aMor mdpTroMou, ot pe, TpoTepov ‘yeyo-
vores: €xelvov, Ob be Kal viv €Tt OvTes. mOTEPOV
57) obv POpev Kara Tov cov Adyov <iddras avrovs
efamaTrav Kal AwBaobae Tovs véous, 7) AeAnBevar
Kal éavtovs; Kal ovTw paivecbar afidiocopev
TovTous, ovs evioi gaot codwrdrovs avOpemwv
eiva;

AN. IloAAod ye Séovor paivecOa, & Le«pares,
GAA odd padAov ot Todros SiddvTes apytpiov-
340

MENO

who set up to understand how to do us good, do you
mean to single out these as conveying not merely
no benefit, such as the rest can give, but actually
corruption to anyone placed in their hands? And
is it for doing this that they openly claim the pay-
ment of fees? For my part I cannot bring myself
to believe you ; for I know of one man, Protagoras,
who amassed more money by his craft than Pheidias
—so famous for the noble works he produced—or
any ten other sculptors. And yet how surprising
that menders of old shoes and furbishers of clothes
should not be able to go undetected thirty days if
they should return the clothes or shoes in worse
condition than they received them, and that such
doings on their part would quickly starve them to
death, while for more than forty years all Greece
failed to notice that Protagoras was corrupting his
classes and sending his pupils away in a worse state
than when he took charge of them! For I believe
he died about seventy years old, forty of which he
spent in the practice of his art; and he retains un-
diminished to this day the high reputation he has
enjoyed all that time—and not only Protagoras,
but a multitude of others too: some who lived
before him, and others still living. Now are we to
take it, according to you, that they wittingly
deceived and corrupted the youth, or that they were
themselves unconscious of it? Are we to conclude
those who are frequently termed the wisest of man-
kind to have been so demented as that ?

an. Demented! Not they, Socrates: far rather
_ the young men who pay them money, and still

VOL, IV M2 341

PLATO

Tt&v véewy: tovtwy 8 tr waGAXov of todros ém-
TpéTovTes, of TpoonKovTes* TOAD b€ wdALora, TavTWY
ai 7dAets, oat avrovs cloagucvetobat Kal ovK
efehavvovoat, cite tis Eévos emuyepe? tovdrdv
Tt moveiy eire aords.

=a. Ildrepov bé, é “Avore, Hodiknké tis ce
Tav cogioTay, 7) 7 wi ovrws avrots xareros el;

AN, Ovdse pa Jia eywrye ovyyeyova mosmore
adt@v oddevi, 005’ dv GAdov edoayms tov éuav
nite

. “Ametpos 4 ap’ el ravranac Tov avdpav;

AN. Kai ein ye.

20. lds obv av, @ Baydne, eideins mepl
Tovrou Tob mpaypatos, €iTe Tt dyabov exet ev
éavT@ elite ddatpov, od mavtdmacw dmretpos
eins;

AN. ‘“Padiws: tovrouvs yotv olda of eiow,
cir’ obv dsreypos avray ell ElTE [L7.

za. Mavis ef ¢ lows, & “Avure: emrel orws ye
dAAws olo8a TOUTWwY mépt, é dv. abros Aé€yeus
Bavpatoyn’ dy. GMa yap od Tovrous émlnrodpev
Tives eloi, map’ ods av Meveny dpudjrevos poxOnpos
yévouro* ovToL pev yap, et ov Bovaer, core of
oopuorat: ada 57) exelvous ele qpiv, Kal Tov
Tar piov Tovde éTaipov evepyernoor, dpdoas aire,
Tapa. Tivas dpuxcdpevos ev Tocavrn monet THY
dpetnv qv vuvdn eya SupAPov yévoir’ dv d&sos
Adyov.

AN. Ti 5€ adr od od Efpacas;

za. "AM ots pev eyw @unv SacKddovs
Tovtwy elvat, elmov, adda tvyxavw oddev Aéywr,
Ws od dis: Kal tows ti réyers. aAAa od 81) &
342

MENO

more the relations who let the young men have their
way; and most of all the cities that allow them to
enter, and do not expel them, whether such attempt
be made by stranger or citizen.
soc. Tell me, Anytus, has any of the sophists
wronged you? What makes you so hard on them.?
an. No, heaven knows I have never in my life
- had dealings with any of them, nor would I let any
of my people have to do with them either.
soc. Then you have absolutely no experience of
those persons ?
an. And trust I never may.
soc. How then, my good sir, can you tell whether
a thing has any good or evil in it, if you are quite
without experience of it ?
an. Easily: the fact is, I know what these people
are, whether I have experience of them or not.
soc. You are a wizard, perhaps, Anytus; for I
really cannot see, from what you say yourself, how
else you can know anything about them. But we
are not inquiring now who the teachers are whose
lessons would make Meno wicked ; let us grant, if
you will, that they are the sophists : I only ask you to
tell us, and do Meno a service as a friend of your
family by letting him know, to whom in all this
great city he should apply in order to become
eminent in the virtue which I described just now.
An. Why not tell him yourself ?
soc. I did mention to him the men whom I
supposed to be teachers of these things; but I
find, from what you say, that I am quite off the
track, and I daresay you are on it. Now you take

343

93

PLATO

~ / , a : S| A / ” > ,
T@ péper adT@ eiwée mapa tivas EAOn >APnvaiwv:
eimé Ovopa Gtov Bovrer.

/ \ ern > lA wv a 2? ~

AN. Ti 5€ evos avOpamov dvopa Set axotoa;
¢ A A > 7 > , ~ ~ >
6Tw yap av evtixyn “APnvaiwy trav Kaddv Kaya-

~ > ‘ ” “a > / rea Bal
Oav, obdels Eotw ds od BeATiw adbrov moujoe 7)
< / 9. 207 /
ot cop.orai, edvmep €0éAn mreiBeobar.

xa. Ildrepov 5€ obtor of Kadol Kadyabot azo

Tod avToudtov €yevovTo ToLwodToL, Trap’ ovdevds
j 5 g aAdovs Sida foi
pabdvres Gums pevTou ovs SiddoKxew ofoi te

ovtes Tabra, a adroi ovK Euabov;
‘ , ” > ~ A ~ ,

AN. Kai rovrous éywye afi apa t&v mporte-

~ lo > ~ ~
pwr pabeivy, dvrwy Kaddv kayabdv: % od SoKodai
go. ToAAoi Kai ayaboi yeyovevar ev THSe TH TOA
avopes ;
‘ ~
za. "Epouye, @ “Avure, Kai elvac Soxodow
> 4 > ‘ \ / ‘ , my
evOdde ayafot ta moditiKd, Kai yeyovévar ére
ody Hrrov 7) elvary adda pav Kal dddoKador
dyabot yeyovact Tis attra&v dpetis; todro ydp
~ ,
€ott mept od 6 Adyos Huiv Tvyxaver wv ovK Et
+s > » we. | \ » > / 29> > /
eialv ayaboi 7 p47) avdpes evOdde, 008’ ei yeyovacw
> ~ / > > > / > > A A
ev T® mpdobev, add’ ci SidaKxrov e€otw aper? maAau
okoTotpev. TodTo dé oKomodvres TOde oKoTOd-
pev, dpa ot ayabol dvdpes Kat THv viv Kal tov
mpoTtépwv TavTny THv apeThv, qv avdrot ayabot
joav, nmioravto Kal GAAw mapadotvar, 7 od
A ~ > / 3O\ ‘ av
mapadoTov Tobro avOpwmw. ovdé mapadnmrov adAw
> a” a > a 7 ~ > 4
map aAdov. tobr’ coTw 6 mdAa Cntoduev eyw re
kal Mévwv. de ody oxdret ek Tob cavTod Adyovu"
/ > > A nn , + ,
OepioroKA€a ob ayabov av hains dvdpa yeyovevar;
AN. "Eywye, mavtwv ye padvora.

344

MENO

your turn, and tell him to whom of the Athenians
he is to go. Give us a name—anyone you please.

an. Why mention a particular one? Any
Athenian gentleman he comes across, without
exception, will do him more good, if he will do as
he is bid, than the sophists.

soc. And did those gentlemen grow spontaneously
into what they are, and without learning from
anybody are they able, nevertheless, to teach
others what they did not learn themselves ?

an. I expect they must have learnt in their turn
from the older generation, who were gentlemen: or
does it not seem to you that we have had many
good men in this city ?

soc. Yes, I agree, Anytus; we have also many
who are good at politics, and have had them in the
past as well as now. But I want to know whether
they have proved good teachers besides of their own
virtue: that is the question with which our dis-
cussion is actually concerned; not whether there
are, or formerly have been, good men here amongst
us or not, but whether virtue is teachable ; this has
been our problem all the time. And our inquiry into
this problem resolves itself into the question: Did
the good men of our own and of former times know
how to transmit to another man the virtue in
respect of which they were good, or is it something
not to be transmitted or taken over from one
human being to another? That is the question I
and Meno have been discussing all this time.
Well, just consider it in your own way of speak-
ing: would you not say that Themistocles was a

man ?
an. I would, particularly so.

345

PLATO

Odxotv Kat SiSdoxadov ayabov, elmep
TUS Mos Ths abTob apetis diddoKados Hv, Ka-
Ketvov €ivat;

AN. Olpae éywye, etzep €BovreTo ye.

30. 7AM’, olet, ovK av €BovdAjnfm aAdous
Te Twas Kadods Kkayabovs yeveoBar, pddvora d€
mov Tov viov TOV abrod ; 7 oleu avrov ploveiv
air kal eFerrirndes ov mrapadi8dovau Ty apeTHy,
iv avros ayabos Hv; y ovK dxrjKoas, oTt Mew-
aToKAis KAeogavrov TOV viov imméa pev €d.0dEaTo
dyaber ; emepeve yoov emt TOV tama opbos
coTKws, Kal mcovrilev amo Tay tnmowv pbes,
Kat dMa moAAd Kat Javpacra eipydlero, & & é€xeivos
abrov émaidevoaTo Kal emoince ooddv, daa dida-
oxdAwy ayabav eixyeto: 7 Tadta ovK aKrKoas
TOV mpeoBuTépwwv ; :

AN. "AkjKoa.

22. Oven a av dpa THY ye vow Tod vieos adrob
yredoar” av TUs elvae KaKyy.

AN. “lows ovK av.

xo. Ti be TOOE; WS Krcogavros 6 Ocp-
aroKh€ous dvip ayabos Kal aogos eyeveTo diep
6 matip avtod, 76n Tov aKyKoas 7 vewTéepou 7
mpeapuTépov ;

an. Od bfra..

. “Ap ovv Taira, pev olopeba Botrcobau
avrov tov avrod viov mawetoat, iv dé adbros
copiav vy oogds, ovdey Tav yerroveny BeAriw
Tounoat, elep mv ve SiSaxrov 7 1) apeTH;

AN. “lows pa AV ov.

xo. Otros pev 8x cor Ttowbros SddoKados

346

MENO

soc. And if any man ever was a teacher of his own
virtue, he especially was a good teacher of his ?

an. In my opinion, yes, assuming that he wished
to be so.

soc. But can you suppose he would not have
wished that other people should become good,
honourable men—above all, I presume, his own son?
Or do you think he was jealous of him, and deliber-
ately refused to impart the virtue of his own goodness
to him? Have you never heard how Themistocles
had his son Cleophantus taught to be a good horse-
man? Why, he could keep his balance standing
upright on horseback, and hurl the javelin while so
standing, and perform many other wonderful feats
in which his father had had him trained, so as to
make him skilled in all that could be learnt from
good masters. Surely you must have heard all this
from your elders ?

an. I have.

soc. Then there could be no complaints of badness
in i son’s nature ?

. I daresay not.

soc. But I ask you—did you ever hear anybody,
old or young, say that Cleophantus, son of Themis-
tocles, had the same goodness and accomplishments
as his father ?

an. Certainly not.

soc. And can we believe that his father chose to
train his own son in those feats, and yet made him
no better than his neighbours in his own particular
accomplishments—if virtue, as alleged, was to be
taught ?

an. On my word, I think not.

soc. Well, there you have a fine teacher of virtue

347

94

PLATO

> ~ a “a ~
aperis, 6v Kal od duodoyeis ev Tois dpiorov Tav
mpotépwr elvar- aAXov S¢ 8) oxepapeba, ’Api-
ateldnv tov Avoysdxou: 7) Todrov ody spodoyeis
ayabov yeyovevar;
AN. “Eywye, mavtws Symov.
=a. Ovdxodv Kal obdros tov vidv tov atrod
voiwayov, dca pev SidacKkdAwy etyeto, KaAALoTa
Avoipay pev didacKar oY aAA
’"AOnvaiwy eémaidevoev, avdpa Sé€ Bedtiw Soxet
Got OTovody TemonKevat; TovTw ydp mov Kal
, tae Pere, > > \ ,
ovyyéyovas Kal opds olds éorw. ef dé BovAc,
IlepuxAga, ovrTw peyadomperds aodov avd
p peyadomp pa,
ola@?” dre Svo vieis Opete, Idpadov nai Eavd-
ummrov ;
AN. "Eywye. : : nade he
sa. Tovrovs peévroar, ws olc8a Kat ot, inméas
p :
prev edidakev oddevds yelpouvs -"AOnvaiwv, Kai
ovoikinv Kal adywviav Kat TaAAa emaidevoev, doa
a 7 ” Y > ‘ / > \ \ +
Téxvns ExEeTaL, ovdevoS xeElpouvs: ayafods dé dpa
wv } > > 5A ~ ~ / > 5A
avdpas obK €BovAeTo Tovfoa; Sox pev, €BovAeTo,
adArAa pn otK 7 Sidaxrév. wa S€ pur dAlyous
” \ \ / 7A / - > /
olin Kal tods davdrotatrovs *AOnvaiwy aéduvdrous
yeyovevat TodTO TO mpaypa, evOupnOnTe dtt OovKv-
didns ad dvo viets EOpee, MeAnoiav Kal Urédavor,
‘ 4 > iS , »” = ‘> 4,

Kal TovTOUs emraidevoe Ta TE dAXa €d Kal émddacay
KdAdwota *APnvaiwy: tov pev yap Zavbia edwxe,
A \ > lA a /- 29 7 ~ /
tov d5€ Evdapw- otro. 5€ mov eddxovy T&V TOTE
KdAMora Tadaiew: 7 od péuvnoa;

AN. "Eywye, axo7.

1 Thucydides (son of Melesias, and no relation of the
historian) was an aristocrat of high principle and con-

348

MENO

who, you admit, was one of the best men of past
times. Let us take another, Aristeides, son of
Lysimachus : do you not admit that he was a good
man?

an. I do, absolutely, of course.

soc. Well, did he not train his son Lysimachus
better than any other Athenian in all that masters
could teach him? And in the result, do you consider
he has turned out better than anyone else? You
have been in his company, I know, and you see what
heislike. Or take another example—the splendidly
accomplished Pericles : he, as you are aware, brought
up two sons, Paralus and Xanthippus.

aN. Yes.

soc. And, you know as well as I, he taught them
to be the foremost horsemen of Athens, and trained
them to excel in music and gymnastics and all
else that comes under the head of the arts; and
with all that, had he no desire to make them good
men? He wished to, I imagine, but presumably
it is not a thing one can be taught. And that
you may not suppose it was only a few of the meanest
sort of Athenians who failed in this matter, let me
remind you that Thucydides! also brought up two
sons, Melesias and Stephanus, and that besides
giving them a good general education he made them
the best wrestlers in Athens: one he placed with
Xanthias, and the other with Eudorus—masters
who, I should think, had the name of being the
best exponents of the art. You remember them,
do you not?

AN. Yes, by hearsay.

servative views who opposed the plans of Pericles for
enriching and adorning Athens.
349

95

PLATO

- Ovxotv SiAov dre odtos ovK adv more,
of. ake edet Sazrave)pevov diddoKew, TadTa pev
edidake tovs maidas tods avdtod, od Sé oddev
dee avahdioavra dyabovs dvdpas Toujoa, Tadra
be ovK edidagev, ef SidaKTov 7 ays dANa yap tows
6 QOovKvdidns daddos jv, kal ovK Hoav aire
metoror piror “AGnvate Kal T@v ULE XY 5
Kal oixias peyddns qv Kal edtvaro péyo. ev Th
70 Ae kat ev tots dAXots “EMnow, ware elmep
jv tovto SiaKxrov, eEevpetv dv sotis eueAdev
abrod tous viets dyabods moujcew, h TOV emiywpiwv
Tis 7) TOV E€vwv, ei adros pt) eoxdAale bia TH

~ 5X. > £y aAAd , > e ~
THs moAews eémipéAevav. a yap, @ €raipe
"Avute, 7) ovK 7) SudaKTov ape.
> / e / cal ~
AN. "Q Ledxpares, padiws por SoKxeis KaKds
Aéyew avOpdrovs. éeyw pev ody av cor oup-

, > Lyama > ‘ / >

BovAevoayur, «i Odes epot eifecPar, edda-

a Caste \ ere tee , fans 4
Betobar- ws tows pev Kal ev ddAn mode paov
€oTt KaK@s troveity avOpeirous 7) «0d, ev THE Se
si nage olwat 5€ oé Kai adrov €idévat.

7Q Mévor, "Avutos pev joe Soxet xa-
paws Kal ovdev Bovpaler oleTat yap pe
™p@Tov pev KaKnyopety Tovrous Tous avdpas,
ETELTA hyetrae Kat avros elvas els tourw. aAn’
odTos pev édv mote yr@, oldv éort TO Kak@s
Aéyew, mavoeTrar yaderaivwvr, viv S€ ayvoet- od
dé pou cid, od Kai map’ div eioi Kadol Kayaboi
avopes ;

1 p@6v Buttmann: fdédidv Mss.
* Anytus goes away. His parting words show that (in
Plato's view) he regarded Socrates as an enemy of the

restored democracy which, he hints, has popular juries only
too ready to condemn such an awkward critic.

350

MENO

soc. Well, is it not obvious that this father would
never have spent his money on having his children
taught all those things, and then have omitted to
teach them at no expense the others that would
have made them good men, if virtue was to be
taught? Will you say that perhaps Thucydides
was one of the meaner sort, and had no great number
of friends among the Athenians and allies? He,
who was of a great house and had much influence
in our city and all over Greece, so that if virtue were
to be taught he would have found out the man who
was likely to make his sons good, whether one of
our own people or a foreigner, were he himself too
busy owing to the cares of state! Ah no, my dear
Anytus, it looks as though virtue were not a teach-
able thing.

an. Socrates, I consider you are too apt to speak
ill of people. I, for one, if you will take my advice,
would warn you to be careful: in most cities it is
probably easier to do people harm than good, and
particularly in this one; I think you know that
yourself.+

soc. Meno, I think Anytus is angry, and I am not
at all surprised : for he conceives, in the first place,
that I am speaking ill of these gentlemen ; and in the
second place, he considers, he is one of them himself.
Yet, should the day come when he knows what
“speaking ill’’ means, his anger will cease ; at present
he does not know.?, Now you must answer me: are
there not good and honourable men among your
people also?

2 This is probably not a reference to a prosecution of
Anytus himself, but a suggestion that what he needs is a
Socratic discussion on ‘* speaking ill,” for **ill” may mean
** maliciously,” ** untruthfully,” ‘* ignorantly,” ete.

‘ 351

B

PLATO

MEN. Ndvy ye.

2a. Ti odv; eB eAovow obrot mapéexew adrovs
didacKddous Tots véous, Kal oporoyety SidaoKadoi
te elvat Kai dvdaKxrov aperiv;

MEN. OU pa tov Ala, & LXed«pates, adda
TOTE prev av avT@v dkovoas ws SiaKTdov, TOTE
dé ws ov.

20. Dapev obv Tovrous SiSacKdAous elvau
tovTov Tod mpdypatos, ols pndé adro TodTo
opmodAoyetrat;

MEN. OW pou Soxet, @ Udkpares.

xa. Ti de 84; of codiotai cow ovror, olmep
povor erayyéAdovrar, SoKxodo. SiddoKxador elvar
aperiis ;

MEN. Kat Topyiov pddwora, & LwxKpares,
Taira ayapar, ott ovK av Tote avTov TovTO
akovoats vUmioxvovpevov, GAAd Kal Tav dddAwv
KatayeAd, dotav daKxovon dmioxvoupevwvs adda
A€yew oieras Seiv rovetv Sewovs.

za. Ovd’ dpa coi Soxodow of codiorai di-
ddoxado: civa;

MEN. Ovx éyw Adyew, & LedKpates. Kat
yap avros Orep ot root mémovOa: ToTé pev
tot Soxodat, Tore dé ov.

za. Ofoba Sé dru od povov coi TE kal tots
aAAows Tots mohuruxots tobTo doxet ToTe pev
elvae didanrdv, tote 8° ot, dAda Kat O€oyvw tov
TounTHy oto?” ort Tavra, Tatra réyer;

MEN. ’Ey zrolous ézeow;

2a. *Ev tots éAeyelous, od A€yer—

Kal mapa Totow mive Kal éofie, Kai pera Totow

ile, Kat avdave Tois, dv peydAn Svvapis.
352

MENO

men. Certainly.

soc. Well then, are they willing to put themselves
forward as teachers of the young, and avow that they
are teachers and that virtue is to be taught ?

meN. No, no, Socrates, I assure you: sometimes
you may hear them refer to it as teachable, but
sometimes as not.

soc. Then are we to call those persons teachers
of this thing, when they do not even agree on that
great question ?

mEN. I should say not, Socrates.

soc. Well, and what of the sophists? Do you
consider these, its only professors, to be teachers of
virtue ?

men. That is a point, Socrates, for which I admire
Gorgias: you will never hear him promising this,
and he ridicules the others when he hears them
promise it. Skill in speaking is what he takes it
to be their business to produce.

soc. Then you do not think the sophists are
teachers of virtue ?

MEN. I cannot say, Socrates. I am in the same
plight as the rest of the world: sometimes I think
that they are, sometimes that they are not.

soc. And are you aware that not only you and
other political folk are in two minds as to whether
virtue is to be taught, but Theognis the poet also
says, you remember, the very same thing ?

MEN. In which part of his poems ?

soc. In those elegiac lines where he says—

**Eat and drink with these men; sit with them, and be
pleasing unto them, who wield great power; for from the

353

96

PLATO

> ~
colAdv pev yap dm’ écbdd Sidakear jw Se
kKakotow
/ , > Ar a \ ‘ 37 ,
oupimioyns, amroAets Kal Tov édvTa voor.
ola” or ev rovrous pev ws SidaKTod ovens Tijs
aperis Aéyeu;
MEN. Waiverai ye.
>
xa. “Ev dddos dé ye dXlyov peraBas,
et 8 Hy mowmrov, dnot, Kat évOerov avdpi vénua,
Aéyer mws ott
moAAods av puobods Kal peydAous édepov
ot Suvdpevor TobTo Toveiv, Kal :
ov trot av e€ ayabod matpos éyevto Kakés,
mevOdpevos pvOorct caddpoow. aGAda SiddoKxwv
ov TOTE TroLoELs TOY KaKoV avdp ayabor. .
> ~ @ > ‘ e ~ / A ~ > ~
evvoeis ott adtos att@ mdAw rept trav adrav
TavavtTia Aێyer;
MEN. Qaiverat.
3a. "Eyes obv eimeiv aAdov drovobv mpdyparos,
¢ A / 4 > a
od of pev ddoxovtes SiddoKador elvar ody Smws
GAAwy SiddoKador spodroyotvrar, add’ oddé adro}
SF 8 > A ‘ x > A ~
emioracbar, aAAa movypot eivat epi adto tobro
TO mpaypa od daci diddoKador elvat, ot 5é dpuodo-
yotpevo. adtol Kadoi Kxayafol toré péev dacw
> ‘ A A \ ” A > a
avro SidaKxrov elvar, rote S€ ov; TovSs odv OUTW
TeTapaypevous mepl oTovody dains av ad Kupiws
dSidacKdAous eiva;
A ? > ”
MEN. Ma Av’ ovdk éywye.
.] ~ > ta e ‘ l4 e 3 \
=a. Odxoir ef pire of coduiotal pre of adroi
1 Bergk, 33-36. 2 Bergk, 434-438.
354

nny
+

on oe omer,

r

MENO

good wilt thou win thee lessons in the good; but mingle
with the bad, and thou wilt lose even the sense that thou
hast.” ?
Do you observe how in these words he implies that
virtue is to be taught ?

mEN. He does, evidently.

soc. But in some other lines he shifts his ground
a little, saying—

- “Could understanding be created and put into a man”
(I think it runs thus) “many high rewards would they
obtain ” (that is, the men who were able to do such a thing):
and again—

“* Never would a bad son have sprung from a good father,
for he would have followed the precepts of wisdom: but not
by teaching wilt thou ever make the bad man good.”?

You notice how in the second passage he contradicts
himself on the same point ?

MEN. Apparently.

soc. Well, can you name any other subject in
which the professing teachers are not only refused
recognition as teachers of others, but regarded as
not even understanding it themselves, and indeed
as inferior in the very quality of which they claim
to be teachers; while those who are themselves
recognized as men of worth and honour say at one
time that it is teachable, and at another that it is
not? When people are so confused about this or
that matter, can you say they are teachers in any
proper sense of the word ?

MEN. No, indeed, I cannot.

soc. Well, if neither the sophists nor the men

355

PLATO

Kadot Kayabot 6 ovres diSdoKadol eiat Tob mpdyparos,
dfAov dre odk av ddAot ye;
MEN. OU poe Soxe?.
xa. Ei dé ye pur) SiddoKador, oddé pabyrat;
MEN. Aoxe? pot éxew ws Aéyets.
¢ / / / ,
=n. OQpohoyjcapev dé ye, mpdyparos od pre
diddoxado. pte pablyral elev, todro pde di-
daxrov elvar;
MEN. ‘Oa teripeuien:
=2. Odxotv dpetis ovdayod daivovrar ddd-
oxadAo.;
MEN. “Kote tatra.
xa. Ei dé ye pr) dudaoKador, oddé pabyral;
MEN. Qaiverar ovTws.
xa. Apert) dpa ovK av ein didaxrov;
> ” ” > ~ e a“ > Lan
MEN. Ovdx €ouxev, elzep dpbds eis eoKei-
Ld \ 4 / > /
peBa. wotre Kai Oavydlw $7, & LUedxKpares,
/ / 99> a > A LA a , nn
moTepov mote ovd «icv ayaboi avdpes, H Tis av
€ln Tpdm0s Ths yevecews TOV ayaldv yryvopevwr.
4 > / > / \ *
xa. Kwédvvedoner, &d Mévwv, eyo te Kal od
patrol twes elvar avdpes, Kal o€ te Topyias ody
ixav@s memawWevKevar Kal ee Updducos. mavros
pGAXov odv mpocexréov Tov vobv iv adrois, Kal
{ntytéov sotis Huds evi yé tw Tpdmm BeArious
mounoer’ A€yw de Taira amoprépas mpos TH
dpre byrne, ws meas eAabe katayeAdoTws,
ort od povov emLaTHNs tyoupévns opbas Te Kal

, \ «
ed Tots avOpasrrous Ks Belt dees Ta Tpaypwara, 7

tows Kal Siadetyer Huds TO yvOvat, Tiva Tore
Tpomrov yiyvovrat ot ayaboi avdpes.
MEN. Il@s todro Aéyeis, & UedKpares;
1 » Madvig: 7 Mss.
356

as

| a A TT A

MENO

who are themselves good and honourable are teachers
of the subject, clearly no others can be?

MEN. I agree.

soc. And if there are no teachers, there can be
no disciples either ?

MEN. I think that statement is true.

soc. And we have admitted that a thing of which
there are neither teachers nor disciples cannot be
taught ?

MEN. We have.

soc. So nowhere are any teachers of virtue to be
found ?

MEN. That is so.

soc. And if no teachers, then no disciples ?

MEN. So it appears.

soc. Hence virtue cannot be taught ?

MEN. It seems likely, if our investigation is
correct. And that makes me wonder, I must say,
Socrates, whether perhaps there are no good men
at all, or by what possible sort of process good people
_ can come to exist ?

soc. I fear, Meno, you and I are but poor creatures,
and Gorgias has been as faulty an educator of you
as Prodicus of me. So our first duty is to look to
ourselves, and try to find somebody who will have
some means or other of making us better. I say
this with special reference to our recent inquiry,
in which I see that we absurdly failed to note that
it is not only through the guidance of knowledge that
human conduct is right and good ; and it is probably
owing to this that we fail to perceive by what
means good men can be produced.

MEN. To what are you alluding, Socrates ?

357

97

PLATO

zo. *O8e- dre prev rods dyabods dvipas Sei
wheripovs elvar, dp0ds dpodroynKapev Todrd
ye, Tt ovK av GAAws Exo H yap;

MEN. Nat.

xa. Kai ore ye wdéAysor Eoovra, dv opbds
Hiv yy@vra TOv mpayydtwv, Kal tobiTd mov
KaA@s wpodoyobpev ;

MEN. Nat,

“Ore 8 odk EoTw op0ds HyeioPar, eav
um dpdvios %, Todro dpowi éeopev ovK dpbds
wpodoynkoow.

MEN. II@s 8 [ep8as] Aéyets ;

za. "Eyw Epa. el tis eldws THY ddoV TH
eis Adpioav 7 Gro. BovAe dAdooe Badifor Kai
aAdots yyotto, addAo Tt 6pO&s av Kat ed Hyotro;

MEN. IIdvu ye.

xa. Ti 8 ef tis dpOds pev So€dlwv, Aris
coTly 7 0d0s, eAnAvOas 5é py pnd’ emoTdpevos,
od Kai obdtos av 6pOas tyoiro;

MEN. Tldvu ye.

22. Kai € ews ei dv mov opOnv ddgav € xn Trepi
dy 6 ETEpos emLOTILNY; ovdev xelpwv TYEHOW
€orat, olduevos pev adnOA, ppovdv Se jun, Tod
Toto ppovobvTos.

MEN. Ovdev yap.

32. Acga dpa dAn Ons pos ophérnra mpagews
ovdev Xelpwv Hyewwv ppovjcews: Kal TOOTS eoTw
6 vuvon mapehetropev €v Th wept Tihs aperis
oxéyer, Omoidv te ein, A€yovres Bre dpovynats
povov wyeirac Tob opb&s mpdtrew: To S€ apa

wal Boba: Gu ays.

358

MENO

soc. I mean that good men must be useful: we
were right, were we not, in admitting that this
must needs be so ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. And in thinking that they will be useful if
they give us right guidance in conduct: here also,
I suppose, our admission was correct ?

MEN. Yes.

soc. But our assertion that it is impossible to give
right guidance unless one has knowledge looks very
like a mistake.

MEN. What do you mean by that ?

soc. I will tell you. If a man knew the way to
Larisa, or any other place you please, and walked
there and led others, would he not give right and
good guidance ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. Well, and a person who had a right opinion
as to which was the way, but had never been there
and did not really know, might give right guidance,
might he not ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. And so long, I presume, as he has right
opinion about that which the other man really knows,
he will be just as good a guide—if he thinks the
truth instead of knowing it—as the man who has the
knowledge.

MEN. Just as good.

soc. Hence true opinion is as good a guide to
rightness of action as knowledge; and this is a
point we omitted just now in our consideration of
the nature of virtue, when we stated that knowledge
is the only guide of right action; whereas we find
there is also true opinion.

359

PLATO

MEN. “Kouxd
=n. Oddev dk Hrrov wpéAysdv eat dpb
dd€a emornuns.
MEN. Tooovrw ye, @ LoKpares, ore 6 _ bev
TV eTLoTH UNV gov det dy emuTvyxavot, 6 de
Ty opOnv dd€av toré pev dv tvyyxdvo, Tore 8
ov.
20, Tas déyets ; 6 del éxwv dpOnv dd€av
ovK Gael TvyXavor, Ewor7rep Opa Sogalou;
MEN. “AvayKn Hou paiveras wore bavpdlw,
Dé LwKpares, Tovrov ors EXOVTOS, ore dy more
Tord TYLUUT Epa a emoTnen Tis, opOiis ddéns, Kal
5’ 6 Te TO ev ETEpov, TO dé Erepov eoTiv abrav.
x2. Oloba odv &” 6 m1 Bavudles, 7) ey cor
elmw;
MEN. [ldvv ¥ eizé.
“Ore Tots Aaddrov dyd\wacw ov Tpoo-
Ladi TOV voov: taws dé 00d’ EoTe map viv.
MEN. IIpos tl dé 8 TobTo Aéyets ;
xa. “Ore Kai tabra, eav yey pn Sedepeva. 7,
dmodiipdoxet Kat Spamerever, eav Sé Sedeueva,
TApapLever.
E men. Ti odv 87;
xa. Tdv éxelvov mompdtwv AeAvpéevov pev
extHobat od mroAAfs Twos agudv €oTt Tihs, womep
Spamérnv avOpwrov: od yap Tapapever* dedepe-
vov de moMob dEvov" mavu yap Kara Ta. epya
€ori. mpos ti odv 8) A€yw Tabra; mpds Tas

dd€as Tas dAnfeis. Kali yap ai dd€au at adnbeis,

v

1 Cf. Euthyphro 11. Socrates pretends to believe the old
legend according to which Daedalus, the first sculptor, con-

860

MENO

MEN. So it seems.

soc. Then right opinion is just as useful as
knowledge.

MEN. With this difference, Socrates, that he who
has knowledge will always hit on the right way,
whereas he who has right opinion will sometimes
do so, but sometimes not.

soc. How do you mean? Will not he who always
has right opinion be always right, so long as he
opines rightly ?

MEN. It appears to me that he must; and there-
fore I wonder, Socrates, this being the case, that
knowledge should ever be more prized than right
opinion, and why they should be two distinct and
separate things.

soc. Well, do you know why it is that you wonder,
or shall I tell you ?

MEN. Please tell me.

soc. It is because you have not observed with
attention the images of Daedalus.1_ But perhaps
there are none in your country.

MEN. What is the point of your remark ?

soc. That if they are not fastened up they play
truant and run away; but, if fastened, they stay
where they are.

MEN. Well, what of that ?

soc. To possess one of his works which is let
loose does not count for much in value; it will not
stay with you any more than a runaway slave:
but when fastened up it is worth a great deal,
for his productions are very fine things And to
what am I referring in all this? To true opinions.

trived a wonderful mechanism in his statues by which they
could move.

361

PLATO

Sov pev dv xpdévov trapaevwor, Kaddv TO Xpjwa
98 Kal mdavta tayaba epyalovrat: moby dé xpovov
ovk €bédovar Trapapévew, dda Spamerevovow €K
Ths yvxis Tod avOpwmov, date od moAdod Gé.ai
elow, Ews av tis abtas Syon airias Aoyopa.
tobro 8 éotiv, Mévwy éraipe, avauvnos, ws év
tots mpdcbev juiv wpoAdynra. émedav 8€ Se-
Odor, mpa@rov pev emoriuwa yiyvovrat, émevra
poviynow Kat dia Tabra 5) TipuedTepov emorn pn
opOis Sd&ns eori, Kai Siadeper Seop@ emioryun
opbijs dd€Ens.
MEN. Ny tov Aia, & Xdk«pates, ouce Towovrw
Twi.

B 3a. Kai pi kal eye ds otk cidas déya,
GAN’ cixdlwv: dtu 5é éoti tu aGAdoiov dpb ddéa
Kal émoTiun, o8 mavu por SoK@ Tobro cixalew,
GAN’ eimep te GAAo dainy av cidévar, dAiya 8 ay
dainv, &v 8 obv Kal tobro exeivwy Oeinv av dv
oida.

MEN. Kai dpOd@s ye, & UaKpares, A€yeis.

zo. Te b€; TOOE OUK opbas, ote aAnOijs dd€a
Tyoupern TO Epyov éxdorns Ths mpdatews ovdev
xXetpov dmepyaleras 7) 7) EmLoTHLY 5

MEN. Kai todro Soxeis por adn Aéyew.

C xn. Oddev dpa opr) b6fa emorhyns xetpov
odde iyrrov ddediun ora: eis Tas mpatets, ovde
avip 6 éxwv opOnv Sd€av 7 6 emorHuny.

MEN. “Eort tadra.
xa. Kai ppv 6 ye ayabos avip wdéAmos
Huty wpordynrat elvas.

362

MENO

For these, so long as they stay with us, are a
fine possession, and effect all that is good; but
they do not care to stay for long, and run away
out of the human soul, and thus are of no great value
until one makes them fast with causal reasoning.
And this process, friend Meno, is recollection, as
in our previous talk we have agreed. But when
once they are fastened, in the first place they turn
into knowledge, and in the second, are abiding.
And this is why knowledge is more prized than
right opinion: the one transcends the other by its
trammels.

mEeN. Upon my word, Socrates, it seems to be
very much as you say.

soc. And indeed I too speak as one who does not
know but only conjectures: yet that there is a differ-
ence between right opinion and knowledge is not at
all a conjecture with me but something I would
particularly assert that I knew: there are not
many things of which I would say that, but this one,

at any rate, I will include among those that I know.
_ MEN. Yes, and you are right, Socrates, in so saying.
soc. Well, then, am I not right also in saying that
_ true opinion leading the way renders the effect of
each action as good as knowledge does ?

There again, Socrates, I think you speak the
truth.

soc. So that right opinion will be no whit inferior
to knowledge in worth or usefulness as regards our
actions, nor will the man who has right opinion be
inferior to him who has knowledge.

MEN. That is so.

soc. And you know that the good man has been
admitted by us to be useful.

863

PLATO

MEN. Nai.

=a. “Ezeid)) roivyy od} povov dv éemorhunv
dyabol dvdpes av elev Kat whéAyor Tats méAcow,
eimep elev, dAAa Kal 8.” dpbiv ddéav, rovrow Sé
ovderepov diac eoti Tots avOpumois, ovTe ém-

/ 4 / > / ww 1 238 a” a
arin ovte Sd€a aAnOrjs, dvr énixkrnra—i SoKet
cou hvac. OTroTepovoby avroiv evia;

MEN. Ovx €powye.

sa. OvdKodv ered) od ddaer, oddé of ayabot
voc elev av.

MEN. Ov dfra.

sa. “Eewd) 5é€ ye od dice, eoxoTotuev TO
pera TobTO, ei Sidaxrov eorw.

MEN. Nai. .

xa. Ovxodv Sdidaxrov edo€ev «iva, ei dpdvyais
1) dpern ;

MEN. Nat.

xa. Kay et ye didaxrov ein, dpovnais av elvar;
‘MEN. Ilavu ye.

xo. Kai ei pev ye diddoxador elev, didaKxrov .
av elvat, 1) OvTwr dé od SidaKrdv;

MEN. OUrws.

xa. "AMG pv wpodroyjKapev pH elvar adrod
dudacKdAous ;

MEN. “Kore tatra.

xo. ‘Quodroyjxapev dpa pyre Sidaxrdov adro
pnre dpdvnow elvar;

MEN. Ildvu ye.

xo. “Aa pv ayabov ye adro dpodoyoduev
eivat;

MEN. Nat.

1 dvr’ Apelt: ovr’ mss.

364

MENO

MEN. Yes.
soc. Since then it is not only because of know-
ledge that men will be good and useful to their
country, where such men are to be found, but also
on account of right opinion; and since neither of
these two things—knowledge and true opinion—
is a natural property of mankind, being acquired—
or do you think that either of them is natural ?
MEN. Not I.
soc. Then if they are not natural, good people
cannot be good by nature either.
men. Of course not.
soc. And since they are not an effect of nature,
we next considered whether virtue can be taught.
EN. Yes.
soc. And we thought it teachable if virtue is
wisdom ?
MEN. Yes.
soc. And if teachable, it must be wisdom ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. And if there were teachers, it could be
taught, but if there were none, it could not ?
MEN. Quite so.
soc. But surely we acknowledged that it had no
teachers ?
MEN. That is true.
soc. Then we acknowledged it neither was taught
nor was wisdom ?
MEN. Certainly.
soc. wagers yet we admitted it was a good?
. Yes.

VOL. IV N 365

PLATO

'OderAyrov S€ Kai dyabdv elvar to dpOds
Hyoupevov ;
MEN. Ildvu ye.
’Opbas Sé ye yeicbar S¥o dvta Tatra

99 pdva, Sd€av te GAnOR Kai emorhnvy, a Exwv
avOpwros opb&s wyeitau. Ta yap amd TvxNS
yuyvomeva ovk avOpwrivn iyyepovia yiyverau dv dé
avOpwrros YEH é€oTw ent To dpbdv, dvo Tatra,
dda adnOjs Kai emor hyn.

MEN. Aoxe? psou ovrws.

xo. Ovxotv eed) od SidaKrov eorw, ovd
emioriun 1) ete ylyvera 7) apery;

MEN. OU daiverat.

B30. Avoiy dpa dvrow ayaboty Kai dpeXijwow TO
bev €tepov amoAéduta, Kat odK av ein ev ToO-
AurikH mpd&er emoriun Wyenov.

MEN. OU por doxe?.

so. Ode dpa codia twi odSé aodol dvTes of
Towobro. avdpes yobvTo tats moAcow, of apd
@epioroKAda te Kai ots apte “Avutos Ode EAeye’
816 Kal ody ofoi te aAXovs zotety ToLovTous ofot
avroi elow, dre od &” emuornpnv ovTes ToLovTOL.

MEN. “Eouxev otrws éxew, @ LdKpares, ws
Aéyets.

30. Odxoby ei pa emoTHn, €vdokia 5) TO

C Aoumov ylyverau 4 ot moAituKol avdpes - “XP |MEVOL
Tas Todeus opbodow, ovdev Siapepovrws EXovTEs

mpos TO dpoveiv 7) of ypnopwdoi Te Kal ot Oeo-
pavrers' Kal yap obra A€yovor pev aAnOA Kai
moAAd, toaor Sé ovdev dv Adyovow.

366

MENO

soc. And that which guides rightly is useful and
?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. And that there are only two things—true
opinion and knowledge—that guide rightly and a
man guides rightly if he have these ; for things that
come about by chance do not occur through human
_ guidance; but where a man is a guide to what is
_ right we find these two things—true opinion and

knowledge.
MEN. I agree.
j soc. Well now, since virtue is not taught, we no
_ longer take it to be knowledge ?
MEN. Apparently not.
_ soc. So of two good and useful things one has
_ been rejected: knowledge cannot be our guide in
| political conduct.

MEN. I think not.

soc. Therefore it was not by any wisdom, nor
| because they were wise, that the sort of men we
_ spoke of controlled their states—Themistocles and
| the rest of them, to whom our friend Anytus was
| referring a moment ago. For this reason it was
_that they were unable to make others like unto
themselves—because their qualities were not an

effect of knowledge.
_ men. The case is probably as you say, Socrates.
soc. And if not by knowledge, as the only alter-
| native it must have been by good opinion. This is
| the means which statesmen employ for their direc-
| tion of states, and they have nothing more to do
| with wisdom than soothsayers and diviners; for
| these people utter many a true thing when inspired,
| but have no knowledge of anything they say.

.

367

100

PLATO

MEN. Kuvdvvever otrws Exyew.

sa. Odcotv, 6 Mévwr, aévov rovrous Belous Ka-
Aetv Tods dvdpas, olrwes vodv pi) Exovtes TOAAG Kai
peydAva Karopfotow dv mparrovat Kai éyovow;

MEN. Ildvu ye.

x02. "Op0ds dp’ av Kadotpev Betous TE, ods
vuvd? eAێyopev xpnopwdods kal pavreis Kal Tovs
TounTuKovs amavras* kat Tovs moAuTuKovs ovdx
qkKioTa TovTwr daiwev av Oelovs te elvar Kal
evOovardlew, émimvovs dvtas Kal Karéyopuevous
ex Tod GQeod, Stray Katop0dot Héyovtes moAAa
kal peydAa mpaypara, pndev €iddtes dv A€yovow.

MEN. IIdvu ye.

za. Kai at ye yuvaikes Sijrov, d Mevwr, rods
ayabods avdipas Oeiovs Kadodor Kai of Adkwves
6Tavy Twa eyKkwpidlwow ayalov dvdpa, Beios
avnp, paciv, odTos.

MEN. Kat daivovrai ye, ® Ldxpates, dpbds
A€yew. Kaito. tows “Avutos dd€ cor ayxOerar
Aéyovtt.

xa. Ovddev pérer Euouye. rovTw pev, @ Me-
vov, Kal abOis SiadcEoueBa: «i Sé viv tyeis &v
mavtt T@ Aoyw TovTw KaArds elytHcapev Te Kal
eréyomev, apeT?) av ein ore dice ore Sidaxror,
GAAa OBeia poipa mapayvyvonevn dvev vod, ofs
dv mapayiyvnta, ef pun Tis €ln TowdTos TaYV
moAuTiuK@v _ v8 pav, ofos Kal a Mov moujoat moX-
TUKOV. et d€ el, oxedov dv tt ovTos A€youro
Towdros ev Tots dow, olfov edn “Opnpos év
Tots reOvedou TOV Tetpeciav elvan, Aéywv mepl
avtod, Ott olos mémvuTa tav év “Aidov, ai de
oxial diogovot. tavrov ay Kal éevOdde 6 TowdTos
368

ee EE

MENO

men. I daresay that is so.

soc. And may we, Meno, rightly call those men
divine who, having no understanding, yet succeed
in many a great deed and word ?

MEN. Certainly.

soc. Then we shall be right in calling those divine
of whom we spoke just now as soothsayers and
prophets and all of the poetic turn; and especially
we can say of the statesmen that they are divine
and enraptured, as being inspired and possessed of
God when they succeed in speaking many great
things, while knowing nought of what they say.

MEN. Certainly.

soc. And the women too, I presume, Meno, call
good men divine; and the Spartans, when they
eulogize a good man, say—“ He is a divine person.”

mEN. And to all appearance, Socrates, they are
right ; though perhaps our friend Anytus may be
annoyed at your statement.

soc. For my part, I care not. As for him, Meno,
we will converse with him some other time. At
the moment, if through all this discussion our queries
and statements have been correct, virtue is found to
be neither natural nor taught, but is imparted to us
by a divine dispensation without understanding in
those who receive it, unless there should be some-
body among the statesmen capable of making a
statesman of another. And if there should be
any such, he might fairly be said to be among the

living what Homer says Teiresias was among the

dead—* He alone has comprehension ; the rest are

flitting shades.”1 In the same way he on earth, in

1 Od. x. 494,

369

PLATO

@onep mapa axias aAnbes av mpaypa etn mpos
apeTyy.

MEN. KadAdtota Soxeis por Adyew, @ LwKpares.

za. "Ex pep Tolvuv TovTov Too Aoyropod, | @
Mew, Oeia poipa jpiv paiverat Tapayryvopevn
7. dpe ofs Tapaylyverar: TO Oe oades mepl
avo eioducla Tote, Tay mpiv wTwt TpdT@M Tots
avOpdsrous Tapaylyverau dper7, TpOTEpov emixen-
prjowpev avTo Kal? atro yrety Tt mor’ éorw
dper7. vov 8 euot bev pa ToL teva, od de
TatTa dep avros TmeTELoaL meiBe Kau Tov f€vov
tovde “Avutov, wa mpadtepos 7° ws eav melons
tovrov, coTw 6 71 Kal “A@nvaious dvijcets.

370

eo

MENO

respect of virtue, will be a real substance among
shadows.

MEN. I think you put it excellently, Socrates.

soc. Then the result of our reasoning, Meno, is
found to be that virtue comes.to us by a divine
dispensation, when it does come. But the certainty

e shall only know when, before asking in

what way virtue comes to mankind, we set about
inquiring what virtue is, in and by itself. It is
time now for me to go my way, but do you per-
suade our friend Anytus of that whereof you are now
yourself persuaded, so as to put him in a gentler
mood ; for if you can persuade him, you will do a
good turn to the people of Athens also.

371

oe Seto Sal
Geta Smiy tel Sere
yes 5 ‘i 5 : reine rr

INTRODUCTION TO THE EUTHYDEMUS

Tuis dialogue is remarkable amongst Plato’s writ-
ings for the keenness and brilliance of its comic satire.
In the main it is a relentless exposure of the
“ eristic ** or disputatious side of the higher educa-
tion which was fashionable at Athens towards the
end of Socrates’ life: the plot of the little drama
is designed to ridicule the mischievous quibbles of
two professors who are trying to captivate the mind
of a handsome and promising youth. But at the
same time it is plainly the work of an ardent teacher
of philosophy, who is clearing the ground for the
construction of what we now call a system of logic.
The spurious argumentation of certain popular
sophists had to be demolished before the Socratic
method of “ dialectic ” could be exhibited in its full
dignity and value.

There are good reasons for believing that the
Euthydemus was written and published after the
Protagoras and Meno, about 390 3.c.—some ten
years after the death of Socrates, and not long
before Plato founded the Academy in 387. Beneath
all its mockery and laughter runs an eager tone of
. protest, which is only half muffled by the genial
banter of Socrates. His manner towards the
professors is throughout deferential and diffident,
but the famous “irony” only serves to bring out

375

PLATO

in sharper relief the unscrupulous audacity of these
sham philosophers. After allowing for some artistic
selection and intensification, we may probably take
it as a truthful picture of the actual Socrates in
contrast with two attractive and successful educators
of the day: but we cannot help perceiving also the
zeal for true education which is steadily impelling
Plato himself towards his high and _ responsible
position in the intellectual world.

The form of the dialogue is notable in itself,
for it is the only instance in Plato of a narrated

conversation which is broken by remarks of the |

hearer (Crito) upon the story as told by Socrates,
who discusses it with him. The account of the
contest with the two sophists is moreover followed
by some serious talk between Socrates and _ his
friend about a person who stands half-way between
philosophy and politics, and who has hastily spurned
the former of these pursuits after listening to Euthy-
demus and Dionysodorus. Whether (as seems prob-
able) the reference is to Isocrates, or to someone
else, this epilogue serves to point the important moral
that, despite the unworthiness of her ministers,
Philosophy abides, ever undefiled, august and
supreme. In relation to her, the half-way men are
as worthless as her showy professors. It seems likely
that Plato felt some apprehension lest the dramatic
and literary skill with which he had represented,
through the mouth of Socrates, the verbal antics
of the two sophists had endangered the impression

which he wished to leave of his master’s and his own

great interest in life—the right education of able
and aspiring youth. Thus the whole piece is to
be regarded as a comedy annotated, as it were,

376

ee

eae eee TCU ee, el

oe pe ae ee ee ee

INTRODUCTION TO THE EUTHYDEMUS

with a view to serious instruction, or an educational
manifesto half concealed by lively scenes of satirical
drama. Its art is entertaining in itself, and significant
also for an understanding of the Aristophanic side
of Plato’s nature. Its real meaning, however, shows
him treading in the steps of Socrates, and especially
developing for his own ends his departed master’s
views on rhetoric and politics.

A useful modern edition of the Euthydemus by
E. H. Gifford was published by the Clarendon Press,
Oxford, in 1905.

ee ee ee

377

aes

St.
p.

I.
271

EYOYTAHMOS

[H EPIZTIKOZ" ANATPENTIKOZ]

TA TOT AIAAOLTOYT IITPOZOQIIA

KPITQON, SQKPATHS, EYOTAHMOS, AIONTSOANPOS,
KAEINIAS, KTHSIMIMOS

KPI. Tis jv, @ Leskpares, @ x0es €v Avnet
Suehéyou; 7) W odds _bpas dxAos TEPLELOT ICEL, aor
eywye ‘Pooldsevos d aKOvELW mpooeABeny ovdev olds 7°
aKkovoat capes: drepxvipas pevrou Kareidov, Kai
prot Cdo€kev elvan E€vos Tt, @ SueA€yov. tis Ws :

=0. II6repov Kal é€pwrds, @ Kpitwv; od yap
els, dAAa bv” Horny.

KPI. “Ov pev eyes dey, é€K Sefvas TpiTOS dao
cob Kabijoro: ev peow 5° Dpav To ’A€wdyou peupa-
Klov HV. Kal bpdAa TOMB, @ o UaxKpares, emdedwnevar
prot €d0€ev, Kal TOD HweTEepov ov mod Tt Thy HAcKiav
Sradépew KpitroBoviAov. aAN’ éxeivos poev oKAn-
dpos, obtos 5é€ mpodepiys Kat adit cies Kat ayabos Thy
oy.

xa. Ev@vdnuos obtds eorw, & Kpitwv, dv
€pwrds* 6 5é map’ eue Kabryevos e& dpiotepas
adeAdos tovrov, Aovvcddwpos: peréexer Sé Kal
ovtos TOV Adywr.

378

= a

iis.

~—7

EUTHYDEMUS
for ON DISPUTATION: rerutative]

CHARACTERS

Crito, Socrates, Evrnypemus, Dionysoporvs,
Crer1as, Cresrppus

crt. Who was it, Socrates, that you were talking
with yesterday at the Lyceum? Why, there was
such a crowd standing about you that when I came
up in the hope of listening I could hear nothing
distinctly : still, by craning over I got a glimpse,
and it appeared to me that it was a stranger with
whom you were talking. Who was he?

soc. About which are you asking, Crito? There
were two of them, not one.

cri. The man whom I mean was sitting next but
one to you, on your right: between you was
Axiochus’ boy ; and he, Socrates, seemed to me to
have grown a great deal, so as to look almost the
same age as my Critobulus, who is rather puny ;
whereas this boy has come on finely, and has a
noble air about him.

soc. Euthydemus is the person to whom you
refer, Crito, and the one sitting on my left was his
brother, Dionysodorus. He too takes part in our
discussions.

379

PLATO

KPI. Ovdérepov yryvdoxw, @ LedKpates. Kawoi

a's ¢ ” , , ‘
C TLES AV OUTOL, WS EOLKE, cod.orai: mooamTrol ; Kat

tis 7 codia;

=0. Odror TO pev yevos, ws eydp.ar, evred0ep
mobév ciow ex Xiov, dmresenoav 8é és Oovpious,
pevyovres Se exeev TOA’ 770 € ern mrepl i rovode Tovs
tomous SvatpiBovow: 6 S€ od epwrds THv codiav
abrotv, Pavpacia, & Kpitwv- maccodat atrexva@s To
ye, oS On mpo TOD, 6 Tt elev Of TayKpaTiacTal.
ToUTW ‘yap €oTov Komloy Tappdayw ov KaTa Tw
’Axapvave eyevéecOnv tw mayKpatiacta adeAded:
EKElVwW LEV Yap T@® aware fLovov ow Te wayeoOar:
ToUTW be m™p@rov pev T@ oapare Sewordrw
€oTov Kal HaXN,; ho mavTwv éore Kpatetv: ev
omAous yap avTw TE oop mavu padxeoOau Kai
dAAov, 6 ds av 5id@ puobdv, oiw Te mound émetra
Thv ev Tots Sucaornpious paxnv Kpatiorw Kal
aywvicac8a. Kat aAdov didagar Aéyew TE Kal
ovyypageobat _Adyous otous eis Ta Suxaoripra.
mpo Tod pev ovv TadTa Sewa jorny pdvov, viv de
TéAos emiteOnKaTov TAyKpATLaoTiKh TEXYD- yap
Hv Aon avrotv pan dpyos, Tadrny vov efeipya-
obov, WOTE pane av eva. avrois oldv 7 elvar pnd
avTdpat: otrw dewvay yeyovarov ev Tots Aoyors
pdxeobat Te Kal efeheyxew TO Gel i Aeyopevor, © opoiws

édv te yeddos edv te aAnbés 7. ey ev oor, @

Kpiray, € ev V@ exw Totv avdpoty trapadobvat €, epavTov-
Kal yap garov €v odiyep xpovep Tooa av Kal
aAdov ovtwobv 7a adra tadra Seworv.

1 The phrase refers especially to a very vigorous sport
which combined wrestling and boxing.

380

i ee ee, ee ne a ee

i el | af lh el

+e a ate ae

Loe ge er

ee
Peal

FE yh FCA DEED rE A Nye

EUTHYDEMUS

crt. Neither of them is known to me, Socrates.
A pair of fresh additions, I suppose, to our sophists.
Where do they hail from, and what science do they
profess ?

soc. By birth I believe they belong to these parts,
that is to say, Chios; they went out as colonists to
Thurii, but have been exiled thence and have spent
a good many years now in various parts of this
country. As to what you ask of their profession,
it is a wonderful one, Crito. These two men are
absolutely omniscient: I never knew before what
“all-round sportsmen ’*! were. They are a pair of
regular all-round fighters—not in the style of the
famous all-round athletes, the two brothers of
Acarnania; they could fight with their bodies only.
But these two, in the first place, are most formidable
in body and in fight against all comers—for they are
not only well skilled themselves in fighting under
arms, but are able to impart that skill, for a fee, to
another; and further, they are most competent
also to fight the battle of the law-courts and teach
others how to speak, or to have composed for them,
such speeches as may win their suits. Formerly
they had merely some ability for this ; but now they
have put the finishing touch to their skill as all-
round sportsmen. The one feat of fighting yet
unperformed by them they have now accomplished,
so that nobody dares stand up to them for a moment ;
such a faculty they have acquired for wielding words
as their weapons and confuting any argument as
readily if it be true as if it be false. And so I, Crito,
am minded to place myself in these two gentlemen’s
hands; for they say it would take them but a little
while to make anyone else clever in just the same way.

381

PLATO

KPI. Ti 8€, & Ldb«pares ; od dof TiHv HAtKiav,
py 7789 mpeoBdrepos ts;

sa. “Heword ye, & Kpitwv- ixavov rexpypiov
éxw Kal mapayv0iov tod pi doPetoOa. adrd
yap TovTw, Ws €mos eimeiv, yepovre OvTe jpéa-
ony Tavrns Tis codias, is € eywye éemiOupa, THs
EploTiKs méepvow 7 mpomrépvow ovdemw mommy
cod. ddr eyw &v pdvov doPodua, pn ad
dvetdos totv Edvow mepiaw, wonep Kovvw TO
MyrtpoBiov, 7 KiBapiorh, ds eué SiddoKxer ert Kal
vov KiBapilew: spavtes obv of Tratdes of cupdor-
THTai pov ey“od Te KaTayeA@or Kai tov Kovvov
Kadotot yepovTodiddokadov. pt) ody Kai Toiv
Eévow tis tadTo Toro dveidion: ot 8 adrd Tobro
tows poBovpevor taxa pe ovK av eOédovev mpoo-
deEacba. eyw 8, & Kpirwv, exeioe pev ad-
Aovs mérevka ovppabytds por doirav mpeoPuras,
evtav0a S5€ ye érépovs meipdcopar meiBew. Kal
ad Ti od avpdoitads; ws' dé déAeap adrois afopev
tovs gods vieis: édiduevor yap exeivwy old’ drt
Kal Huds mawdevaovow.

KPI. *AAX’ oddév Kwdver, & LaKpares, édv ye
cot Sox. mp@rov S€ por Sinynoa tiv codiav
Tow avopoiv tis eotw, iva €id@ 6 Te Kal pabn-
oopeda.

22. Odx av Pbdvois axovwv: ws odk« av Exousi
ye eimetv, tt od mpocetxyov Tov vodv abrotv, adda
mdavu Kal mpocetyov Kal péeuvnpa, Kal GoL 7eELpa-
couat e€ apis amavra Sinyjnoacba. Kara Pedr

1 So Winckelmann: od ri tov cuudoira icws MSS.

382

EUTHYDEMUS

cri. What, Socrates! Are you not afraid, at
your time of life, that you may be too old for that
now ?

soc. Not at all, Crito: I have enough proof and
reassurance to the contrary. These same two
persons were little less than old men at the time of
their taking up this science, which I desire to have,
of disputation. Last year, or the year before,
they were as yet without their science. The only
thing I am afraid of is that I may bring the same
disgrace upon our two visitors as upon Connus, son
of Metrobius, the harper, who is still trying to
teach me the harp; so that the boys who go to his
lessons with me make fun of me and call Connus
“the gaffers’ master.” This makes me fear that
someone may make the same reproach to the two
strangers; and, for aught I know, their dread of
this very thing may make them unwilling to accept
me. So, Crito, just as in the other case I have
persuaded some elderly men to come and have
lessons with me, in this affair I am going to try and
persuade another set. Now you, I am sure, will
come with me to school; and we will take your sons
as a bait to entice them, for I have no doubt that
the attraction of these young fellows will make them
include us also in the class.

crt. I have no objection, Socrates, if you think
fit todo so. But first you must explain to me what
is the science these men profess, that I may know
what it is we are going to learn.

soc. You shall be told at once; for I cannot
plead that I did not give them my attention, since
I not only attended closely but remember and will
try to expound the whole thing from the beginning.

383

273

PLA1O

, ” / > ~ 4
ydp twa €rvxov Kabijpevos evtatba, obzep at pe
eldes, €v TH aroduTnpiw pdvos, Kal Hon ev V@
elyov. avaorivar: aviotapevov dé pov eyeveTo TO
elwOos onpuetov TO Sadviov. mddAw ody exa-
Oelounv, Kal dAlyw tortepov cicépyecbov trovTw,
a > > / ‘ e /, \ »”

6 tT Ev@vdnuos Kat 6 Atovvaddmpos, Kai adAot
\ A s ‘ > ‘ n > /

pabnrai dua ad moAXot enol Soxeiv: eiceAPovre

d¢ mepterateityy ev TH Kataotéyw Spouw. Kal

” tf 73 nn a / ,
ovmw tovTw dU 7 Tpets Spdsous mepreAnAvbore
” ‘ Ra. a , a \ \ \
yoTnv, Kat eioépxerar KXewias, dv ad dis moAvd
> / > ~ / ” \ > ~
emidedwkevat, adAnOA A€ywv: dmicbev Se adroo
> ‘ / , Ld ‘ ,
€paotat mavu moAAoi te aAAo Kai Krijowrmos,

/ , 4 / > A
veavioxos tis Ilavaveds, udAa Kados te Kayabos

‘ 4 Lid \ ¢ \ \ \ /, >
thy dvow, doov pr) bBprot7s Sua TO véos e«ivat.
> ‘ on e / > A “~ > / /
ioav otv pe 6 Krewias amd tis eicddov pdvov
KaOynuevov, avtixpus iav tapexabeleto ex Seas,
o ‘ ‘ / 9 7 A > A hid
womep Kal od dys: iddvte 5é adrov 6 Te Avovu-
addwpos Kal 6 Eddvdnuos mpatov pev émoravre
SueAeyeoOnv adAjAow, GaAAnv Kat aAAnv azo-
Brérovre els Hpas: Kal yap .mdvy avrotv mpoc-
etxov TOV voov: emreura, iovte 6 bev Tapa To
petpavov exabélero, 6 Evdvdnpos, 6 be map’
avrov ewe ev apiorepa of 8° adAoe ws ExaoTos
erbyxavev.

"Homalopny oov avr) dre dua. xpdovov éwpakeds*
preva Se Tobro elzrov mpos Tov KAewiav, "QO Krewia,
TwOE pEVTOL TA dv8pe cope, Ev6vdnpds TE Kal
Atovvaddwpos, od Ta opixpd, GAA Ta peydAa’ Ta

1 This gymnasium (the Lyceum) was a public one, open

mpesone of all ages, and was a common resort of Socrates
the sophists.

2 Socrates believed that his conduct was occasionally

384

— =

Oe ea a re

whee ®

— Las

— ee aS

a nT oe ee

ae

WS eee ae ee

44
is

Bing art

EUTHYDEMUS

By some providence I chanced to be sitting in the
place where you saw me, in the undressing-room,!
alone, and was just intending to get up and go; but
the moment I did so, there came my wonted spiritual
sign.” So I sat down again, and after a little while
these two persons entered—Euthydemus and Diony-
sodorus—and accompanying them, quite a number,
as it seemed to me, of their pupils: the two men
came in and began walking round inside the cloister.3
Hardly had they taken two or three turns, when
in stepped Cleinias, who you say has come on so
much, and you are right: behind him was a whole
troop of lovers, and among them Ctesippus, a young
fellow from Paeania, of gentle birth and breeding,
except for a certain insolence of youth. So when
Cleinias as he entered caught sight of me sitting there
alone, he came straight across and sat beside me on
my right, just as you say. Dionysodorus and Euthy-
demus, when they saw him, stood at first talking with
each other, and casting an occasional glance at us—
for my attention was fixed on them—but then one
of them, Euthydemus, took a seat by the youth,
and the other next to me on my left; the rest,
where each happened to find one.

So I greeted the two brothers, as not having seen
them for some time; after that I said to Cleinias :
My dear Cleinias, these two men, you know, are

skilled not in little things, but in great. For they

— by a spiritual voice or sign peculiar to himself. By
lato’s account it was always negative, but the present
instance shows how Xenophon might have some reason for
saying that it was sometimes positive.

* The cloister ran round the central open court, and was
reached by passing through the undressing-room.
385

274

PLATO

A A A / / } eee Ld ~
yap epi Tov mdAcuov mavTa émiotacbov, dca Set
tov péAdovta otpatnydov éceoba, tds Te Tdkews
Kal Tas Hyeuovias THY oTpatoTédwv Kal dca év
OrrAows pdxecba Si8axréov: olw re Sé Kal movpoo
duvarov eivar adtov att@ Bonbeiv ev rots SiKa-
orTnpiows, dv tis adrov adi. eirav obv Tadra

/ ¢ 93 > lal > / yy wv
Karedpovyibnv tm’ adroiv: éyeAacdrny obv audw
Brébavte eis aAAjAw, Kal 6 EvdOvdnuos elmev:

4 ” ~ > 4 / > A
Ovro: ert tabra, & Uadxpares, orrovdalouev, dAda
mapépyois attois ypwucla. Kayd Oavudoas

1) wv \ ” is ~ ” >
elrov: Kaddv dv te 70 Epyov tudv ein, et THAL-
katTa mpdyyara mdapepya viv Tuyxdver OvTa, Kal
mpos Oedv etmerov por, Ti éatt TodTO TO KaAdv.
2A / ” > > / 7 0. ov > a

petnv, €bn, @ Lw«pares, olduca olw 7° eivar
Tapadobvar KdAAor’ avOpwimwv Kal TaxLOTA.

°Q. Zeb, ofov, jv 8 eyd, Aéyerov mpaypa* 7d0ev
TodTo TO Epyaov edpéernv; eyw dé mept tuav
Svevoodpnv ert, Wamep viv 51) EAeyov, cs TO odd

A a a>
Tobdro Sewvotv dvrow, ev SrrAois pwdyeoOar, Kal TadT

a >
Edeyov epi of@v: ote yap TO mpdtepov ézedy-
adrnv, Tobro péeuvnuar add eémayyedAopevw.
~ ~ ww
et 5€ viv ddnbds tadrnv tiv emorhpny éxeror,
~ ‘
tAew eintov: arexvds yap éywye odw womep bed
mpocayopevw, ovyyvwunv Sedpevos exew por TOV
uv i] > ta > > ean s E 30 55 /
eumpoober eipnucvwv. add’ dparov, & Eddvdnue
lod A \
te kat Avovvaddwpe, et adnO_ édéyerov: bd yap

“~ ~ ‘
Tob peyélous Tob emayyéAuatos ovdéev Bavpactov
amore.

"AM cd toh, & UdKpares, Efarov, todo
ovTws éxov.

/ ”. 9 e ~ ” ~ / Ad

Maxapilw dp’ buds éywye tod Kripatos Todd

386

—a ee ee

rp 9

EUTHYDEMUS

understand all about war, that is, as much as is
needful for him who is to be a good general; both
the tactics and the strategy of armies, and all the
teaching of troops under arms; and they can also
enable one to get redress in the law courts for a
wrong that one may have suffered.

When I had said this, I saw they despised me for
it, and they both laughed, looking at each other;
then Euthydemus said: No, no, Socrates, we do
not make those matters our business now; we deal
with them as diversions.

At this I wondered and said: Your business must
be a fine one, if such great matters are indeed
diversions to you; so I beseech you, tell me what
this fine business is.

Virtue, Socrates, he replied, is what we deem
ourselves able to purvey in a pre-eminently excellent
and speedy manner.

Good heavens, I exclaimed, a mighty affair
indeed! Where did you have the luck to pick it
up? I was still considering you, as I remarked
just now, to be chiefly skilled in fighting under arms,
and so spoke of you in those terms: for when you
visited our city before, this, I recollect, was the
profession you made. But if you now in truth
possess this other knowledge, have mercy—you see
I address you just as though you were a couple of
gods, beseeching you to forgive my former remarks.
But make sure, Euthydemus and Dionysodorus,
that you spoke the truth: for the vastness of your
promise gives me some excuse for disbelieving.

You may be sure, Socrates, they replied, it is as
we say.

Then I congratulate you on your acquisition far

387

PLATO

padrov 7 7H péyav Baowréa THs apxis: Toaovbe dé
pou elmerov, ei ev v@ ExeTov emderkvdvar Tavryny
TV codiav, 7) Tas odey BeBowAevras.

°"En’” adro ye ToOTo md peoper, ® UwKpates, wes
emdeiEovte Kai didakovte, edv tis E0An pavOaveww.

“AW ort pe €BeAjoovow dmavres ot t i) ExovTes,
€ya) bvpiv eyyvapat, mparos bev eyw, emeta dé
KAcwias ovrooi, mpos Ss jpeiv Krijourmes TE 68¢
Kal of ddAow odToL, Hv So eye deucvds adr@ Tovs
epacras TOUS KAewitov: ot de eTUyXavov nas Hoy
TEepuoTapevor. oO yap Krijourmos ETUXE moppw
Kabelopevos tod KAewiov, euoi dSoKeiv: ais &
ervyxavev 6 Evdvdnuos uot duadeydpevos mpo-
veveuKws eis TO 7pdobev, ev pweow OvTOS HudV TOD
KAewiov éemeckdte: TH Krnoinmw ris béas: Bov-
Adpevds te obv Bedoacbat 6 Krijourmos ta TratduKd.
kal dua diAjKoos Wy avamyndjcas mp@tos mpoc-
éoTn iv ev TH Karaytixpv: ovtws obv Kal of
aAAou exeivoy iddvres mEepieoTnoay Huds, of Te TOD
KAewiov €pacrai Kai ot Tob EvPvdypov Te Kal
Atovyaodespou éTatpot. Tourous 57) eye devxvods
eXeyov TH Eddvdjuy, OTe madvTes €Touror elev
pavOdvew: 6 Te ovv Krijourmos owvedy) pdda
mpoBvpus Kal Ob dAAot, Kat exéAevov abra Kowh
MaVTES emdeiSaobat Thy Svvapw Tis codias.

Etzov odv éyw, ?Q Eddvdnue cai Avovvaddwpe,
mdvu ev odv TavTl TpoOT@ Kal TovTOLs yapicacUov
Kai e“od evexa emidei€atov. Ta pev odv tAcloTa
SHAov Gt odK dAtyov Epyov éemBdeiEar- 7dde Sé jor
elmeTOv, TOTEpov TrEeTELoLevoy HON, Ws xp) Tap’
tuav pavOdavew, dvvaic8 av ayabov rovjoa avdpa
Hovov, 7) Kal exeivov Tov prTw TeTTELopEevov Sia TO
388

ee ee ee Wacken ‘ —

»',

EUTHYDEMUS

more than I do the great king on his empire:
only tell me whether you intend to exhibit this
science of yours, or what you have determined to
do.

We are here for the very purpose, Socrates, of
exhibiting and expounding it to anyone who wishes
to learn.

Well, I guarantee that all who do not possess it
will wish to—myself to begin with, then Cleinias
here and, besides us, Ctesippus and all these
others, I said, showing him the lovers of Cleinias,
who were by this time standing about us. For
Ctesippus, as it happened, was sitting some way
from Cleinias, I noticed ; and by chance, as Euthy-
demus leant forward in talking to me he obscured
Ctesippus’s view of Cleinias, who was between us.
Then Ctesippus, desiring to gaze on his favourite
and being also an eager listener, led the way by
jumping up and placing himself opposite us; and
this made the others, on seeing what he did, stand
around us, both Cleinias’s lovers and the followers of
Euthydemus and Dionysodorus. Pointing to these,
I told Euthydemus that they were all ready to learn ;
to which Ctesippus assented with great eagerness, and
so did the rest ; and they all joined in urging the
two men to exhibit the power of their wisdom.

On this I remarked: My good Euthydemus and
Dionysodorus, you must do your very best to gratify
my friends and, for my sake also, to give us an
exhibition. To do it in full, of course, would obviously
be a lengthy performance : but tell me one thing—
will you be able to make a good man of him only who
is already convinced that he should learn of you, or
of him also who is not yet so convinced, owing to

389

275

PLATO

A ” Lid A ~ 4 > 4 ‘
py) otec8ar CAws TO mpGypa THY aperiv pabnror
hal A ‘ - 7 A / , t
elvae 7 pt) ode elvar adris SidackddAw; dépe, Kat
TOV OUTWS ExoVvTA THs abTHs TéxVNS Epyov TeicaL,
Ws Kal diaKrov % apeT Kal obror bets €ore,
>

Tap wv av KdAAtord Tis adto wdbor, 7 GAAns;
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Tavrns pev obv, éby, Ths adbris, d Uad«pares, 0
Atovvaddwpos.

“Ypuets dpa, iv 8 éeyd, & Atovvaddwpe, Tov
vov avOpwrwv KdAdor’ av mpotpéeate eis pido-
codiav Kal aperis émipeéAciav;

7 / / EA 4
Oidpcba ye 54, d Ued«pares.
~ tc a ”

Tév pev toivey GdAwv ri éeridecéw hyiv, pny,
clcatbis amdbecbov, totro 8° atro émideiEacbov-
TouTovi Tov veavioKov meicaTov, Ws xp7) ptAogo-

a ~ A a > ,
deiv Kat aperhs émierciofar, Kai yaptetofov €or
Te Kal TovToLoi Tact. aupPeBnKe yap TL ToLodToV
TH peipakiw tovTw: eyw Te Kal olde mavTes

~ A
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evavTiov 7uav.
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390

i i i $ —

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|

EUTHYDEMUS

an absolute disbelief that virtue is a thing that
can be learnt or that you are teachers of it?
Come now, is it the business of this same art to
persuade such a man that virtue is teachable and
that you are the men of whom one may best learn
it, or does this need some other art ?

No, this same one can do it, Socrates, said Dionyso-
dorus.

Then you two, Dionysodorus, I said, would be the
best persons now on earth to incite one to the pursuit
of knowledge and the practice of virtue ?

We think so, at least, Socrates.

Well then, please defer the display of all the rest
to some other occasion, I said, and exhibit this one
thing. You are to persuade this young fellow here
that he ought to ensue wisdom and practise virtue,
and so you will oblige both me and all these present.
This youth happens to be in just the sort of con-
dition I speak of; and I and all of us here are at

-this moment anxious for him to become as good as

possible. Heis the son of Axiochus, son of the former
Alcibiades,! and is own cousin to the Alcibiades that
now is: his name is Cleinias. He is young; and so
we have fears for him, as well one may for a young
man, lest someone forestall us and turn his inclina-
tion to some other course of life, and so corrupt
him. Hence your arrival now is most happy.
Come now, if it is all the same to you, make trial of
the lad and talk with him in our presence.

When I had thus spoken, in almost these very
words, Euthydemus answered in a tone both manly

1 i.e. the famous Alcibiades, who died in 404 z.c. at the
age of 44. The supposed time of this discussion must be a
year or two before tes’ death (399 B.c.).

391

2

C

E

76

PLATO

ovdev Siaddper, @& Ledxpates, edn, av pdvov
e0éAn amoxpiveoOat 6 veavioxos.

"Aa pev 8H, edynv eyed, TotrTo ye Kal eOoras-
Gaya yap att® olde mpooiwvres moda epwreai
te kat Swaddyovtar, wote emuerx@s Oappet ro
amoxpivacbat.

Ta 8) pera tadra, & Kpitwy, mds av Kadds
cou Sunynoaiunv; ov yap opiKpov To epyov, dvva-
ofa avadaBeiv dieEidvtTa codiav aunyavov don:
wor éywye, Kabdrep of mroimral, Séomar apxd-
pevos THs Sinyjoews Movoas re Kxat Mvijunv
emukaAetobar- TpEaro 8 ov evOdvde moBev 6
Evdvdnyos, ws eydyae 70 Krewia, TOTE POL cio
tav avOpmmwv ot pavOdvovtes, of aopoit H ot
apabeis ;

Kat TO pelpaKiov, are peyddov dvTos TOD €pw-
THLATOS, TpvOpiacé Te kal dmopnaas €BAemev eis

ene Kal eyo yvovs avrov TeBopuBnuevor, Odppe,

mv oi ey, ® KAcuia, Kal droKxpwat dv8peiws,
omdrepa cou daiverars tows yap Tor where? TH
peylorny wpehevar.

Kai & ToUTe 6 Avovvaddwpos mpooxvipas frou
opLuKpov T™pos TO ods, mavy pevoidoas TO Tpoow7e,
Kat pay, edn, ool, @ LesKpares, mporeyw, ort
Omotep dv amoKpivnta TO peipaKxiov, e&<eAeyxOrj-
oeTat.

Kai avroo perago Tatra, Aéyovros 6 KrAewias
ETUYEV aTroKpwdpevos, WoTE OVSE mapaxeAcdoaobat
poe eLeyevero evAaBnOjvac T@ petpaxiw, daAd’
dmexpivaro, drt of aodot elev of pavOdvovres.

Kai 6 Ev6vdnp0s, Kadreis d5€ twas, edn, d.da-
oxdAous, 7) 00; ‘Quoddye. Odxoty ra&v pav-
392

PSD, OE ak ee i oe a

oe

ae

tty tae DO. a,
; :

EUTHYDEMUS

and dashing: Oh, it is all the same to us, Socrates,
provided the youth is willing to answer us.

Why, in fact, I said, that is just what he is used to:
these people here are constantly coming to him and
asking him a number of questions and debating with
him, so he is a fairly fearless answerer.

What ensued, Crito, how am I to relate in proper
style? For no slight matter it is to be able to
recall in description such enormous knowledge as.
theirs. Consequently, like the poets, I must needs
begin my narrative with an invocation of the Muses
and Memory. Well, Euthydemus set to work, so
far as I remember, in terms very much the same
as these : Cleinias, which sort of men are the learners,
the wise or the foolish ?

At this the young man, feeling the embarrassment
of the question, blushed and glanced at me in his
helplessness. So I, perceiving his confusion, said :
Have no fear, Cleinias; answer bravely, whichever
you think it is: for perchance he is doing you the
greatest service in the world.

Meanwhile Dionysodorus leant over a little to me,
with a broad smile on his face, and whispered in my
ear: Let me tell you, Socrates, beforehand that,
whichever way the lad answers, he will be confuted.

While he was saying this, Cleinias made his reply,
so that I was unable even to advise the boy to be
wary: he replied that it was the wise who were the
learners.

Then Euthydemus asked: And are there persons
whom you call teachers, or not ?

He agreed that there were.

393

PLATO

Gavévrwy of SiddoKado. SiddoKxadol elow, womep
c A A ¢ A La
0 KWapioris Kai 6 ypaypatioTis SiddoKador

/ io lon ~ cal
Simov joav ood Kal Tov dAAwy mraidwy, byeis Sé
pabynrai; Lvvedn. “AAXo te odv, Hvika epav-
Oavere, ow Hriotacbe tadra, a euavOdvere;
Odn édn. *Ap’ odv codoi ire, Ste tabra ovK
nrioracbe; Od dita, 4 8 ds. Odxotv ef pur
copoi, auabeis; Ildvy ye. ‘Ypeis dpa pavdd-
vovtes & ovK Hmiotaabe, auabeis dvTes epav-
0. / “al Tp , \ 7 Oi > 6 a
dvere. TEVEUGE TO [LELPGKLOV. t dpabeis
dpa pavOdvovow, @ KAewvia, add’ ody of aodoi,
ws od ole.

Tatr’ obv eizovtos abtob, domep bo didacKkdaAov
xXopos amoonunvavtos, dua aveBopvBnodv te Kal
eyéAacav of émduevor exeivor eta Tod Avovuco-
Sw@pov te Kat Evdvijpov- Kal mplv avanveicat

~ ‘ Ld ‘ / > 4 ¢
Kkadd@s te Kai €0 TO peipdKiov, exdeEdpevos O
Avovuaddwpos, Ti dé, & KaAewia, édn, omore
dmootopatilo. tuiv 6 ypampatioTys, mdoTEpor
eudvOavov tav taidiwv Ta amooromarildueva, ot
copot 7 ot auabeis; Oi codoi, bn 6 KAcwias.

¢ A a” 4 > > > ¢ > an

Of codoi dpa pavOdvovow, add’ ody of apabeis,

us e \y »# > , > 1
Kal obk ed od' apte Ed0vdijuw amexpivw.

> ~ \ A / > / 4 A > /

Evratéa 81) Kai mdvu éyéhacdv te Kat €Bopv-
Bnoav ot épactal toiv avdpoiv, ayacbeytes Tijs

, 3 ~ e 8’ TAA ¢€ cal > Xr /
codias adroiv: ot 8 aAXou ets exmemAnypevot
> ~ A \ e ~ ¢ > / >
cowm@yev. yvovs Sé€ Huds 6 Ev@vdnuos éx-

1 ed ot Burnet: ev@vs Mss,

394

i ee 0 ee A

|

EUTHYDEMUS

And the teachers of the learners are teachers in
the same way as your lute-master and your writing-
master, I suppose, were teachers of you and the other
boys, while you were pupils ?

He assented.

Now, of course, when you were learning, you did
not yet know the things you were learning?

No, he said. -

So were you wise, when you did not know those
things ?

No, to be sure, he said.

Then if not wise, foolish ?

Certainly.

So when you learnt what you did not know, you
learnt while being foolish.

To this the lad nodded assent.

Hence it is the foolish who learn, Cleinias, and not
the wise, as you suppose.

When he had thus spoken, all those followers of
Dionysodorus and Euthydemus raised a cheer and a
laugh, like a chorus at the signal of their director ;
and before the boy could fairly and fully recover
his breath Dionysodorus took up the cudgels and
said: Well now, Cleinias, whenever your writing-
master dictated from memory, which of the boys
learnt the piece recited, the wise or the foolish ?

The wise, said Cleinias.

So it is the wise who learn, and not the foolish :
hence the answer you gave just now to Euthydemus
was a bad one.

Thereupon arose a great deal of laughter and loud
applause from the pair’s adorers, in admiration of
their cleverness ; while we on our side were dismayed
and held our peace. Then Euthydemus, observing

395

t=

PLATO

memAnypevous, tv’ ett waGdAAov Bavudlousev adrov,

> wa ‘ 4 > > > 4 ‘ ¢ ¢
ovK aviet TO peipdKxiov, GAX’ jpwra, Kal worrep ot
> ‘ > / a ” \ > /,
ayabot dpxnorai, SimAG Eotpede TA epwrhpara
mepi tod adrod, kai épn: Ildrepov yap ot pavOd-
vovtes pravOdvovow & érioravrat 7) & pa) emi-
oravTat;

Kai 6 Atovvaddwpos maAw juxpov mpds pe yYu-
4] / K ‘ a > ” > > -, @
vpicas, Kai rotr’, dy, @ LwKpates, ErTEpov
To.ovTov, olov TO mporepov.

Ss ~ ” ‘ / /

Q Zeb, ednv eyw, pv Kat TO mpdrepdov ye

‘ ct a > / ; Cote. ,
kadov dpiv épavn To épwrnpua.
4 > ” ~ a ~

Ildvr’, bn, & LadKpares, rovadra jets epwrd-
prev aduxta.

Touydpros, qv 8 eyo, Soxetré prot eddoKtpeiv
mapa Tois pabyrais.

"Ev dé todtw 6 pev Krewias 7H EvdOvdijuw
amekpivato, ott pavOdvouev ot avOdvovtes & odK
émiotrawto* 6 d€ ypeto avrov bia Tav adrav
= ‘ /, / ta - 7 @ > Deh
vrep To mpotepov: Ti dé; 4 8’ ds, od« emiatacat

\ / / ” > ~ 4
od ypdppata; Nati, én. Ovdxotv amavra;
€ ld a > > / e ~
Quodrdye. “Orav obv tis dmootopatiln tidy,

> / > / € / >
od ypdppata damootopatiler; ‘Quoddyer. Odx-
ody av tt od eniotacm, fn, amooropuarilet,
elmep mdvra émiotaca; Kal todro wpoddyer.

laepltee « 3 ¢ a ‘ , Eh highs Si
Ti otv; 7 & ds, dpa ov pavOdavers arr av azo-
oTopatiln tis, 6 dé pur) emoTdmevos ypdypatra
pavddver; Ovr, add’, 7 8 Gs, pavBdver. Ovx-
ody & érictacat, edn, pavOdves, et Tép ye arravTa

896

EUTHYDEMUS

our dismay, and seeking to astonish us still further,
would not let the boy go, but went on questioning him
and, like a skilful dancer, gave a twofold twist to his
questions on the same point: Now, do the learners
learn what they know, he asked, or what they do
not ?

Then Dionysodorus whispered to me again softly :
Here comes a second one, Socrates, just like the first.

Heavens! I replied: surely the first question served
you well enough.

All our questions, Socrates, he said, are like that ;
they leave no escape.

And consequently, as it seems to me, I remarked,
you have this high repute among your disciples.

Meanwhile Cleinias answered Euthydemus, that
learners learnt what they did not know; so he had
to meet the same course of questions as before :
Well then, asked the other, do you not know your
letters ?

Yes, he said.

All of them ?

He admitted it.

Now when anyone dictates some piece or other,
does he not dictate letters ?

He admitted it.

And he dictates things of which you know some-
thing, since you know all of them?

He admitted this too.

Well now, said the other, surely you do not learn
whatever such a person dictates; it is rather he
_ who does not. know his letters that learns ?

No, he replied ; I learn.

Then you learn what you know, since you know
all your letters.

VOL. IV re) 397

PLATO

A ,
Bra ypdupara enioraca. ‘Quodrsyncev. Ove
mv > i] ~ > / ”
apa oplas azexpivw, épn.
\ La ~ ~
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os % , >? ‘
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4 4 0 eg , e ,
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e
0 Krewias. To 8 émicracba, 4 8 ds, dAAo TH
an” ” > ‘ ”
€xew emioTyunv Hdn eotiv; Lvvédn. To apa
\ b ee! > ,
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vovtes dTLoby of Exovres dn 7 oF av yn; Ol av
A ” a 7
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\ A ~ a Ff
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eyw yvods Bamrilouevov to peipaKxiov, BovdAd-
pevos avamatoa avro, pn jutv amodeAdcee,
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w” , Ds ¢ , ” ‘ >
et oot daivovtar anfers oi Adyor. tows yap ovK
aicOdver, ofov moretrov Tw Eévw mrepi aé* movettov
398

EUTHYDEMUS

He agreed.
- So your answer was not correct, he said.
The last word was hardly out of Euthydemus’
mouth when Dionysodorus caught, as it were, the
_ ball of the argument and, aiming at the boy again,
_ said: Euthydemus is deceiving you, Cleinias. Tell
me, is not learning the reception of knowledge of
that which one learns ?
Cleinias agreed.
And is not knowing, he went on, just having
knowledge at the time ?
He assented.
So that not knowing is not yet having knowledge ?
He agreed with him.
Then are those who receive anything those who
have it already, or those who have it not ?
Those who have it not.
__ And you have admitted that those who do not
know belong also to this class of those who have it
not?
_ He nodded assent.
And the learners belong to the class of the receiv-
_ing and not to that of the having ?
He agreed.
_ Hence it is those who do not know that learn,
- Cleinias, and not those who know.
__ Euthydemus was proceeding to press the youth
for the third fall, when I, perceiving the lad was
_ going under, and wishing to give him some breathing-
space lest he should shame us by losing heart,
encouraged him with these words: Cleinias, do not
| be surprised that these arguments seem strange to
you; for perhaps you do not discern what our two
Visitors are doing to you. They are acting just like

399

278

PLATO

5é radrov, omep of ev TH TeAeTH TOV KopuBdvrwv
’ 'g zt TH P ’
bd A /, ~ ‘ ~ a n
otav tHv Opdovwow mowWou mept Todrov, dv av
/ a a >
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obddev ddAo 7 xopeveTov TEpi cé Kai olov dpxetobov
mailovre, Ws peta TodTO TeAobvTE. viv ovv Vd-
jucov Ta mpata Tav lep@v aKxovew Tav codt-
aTiK@v. mp&tov ydp, ws gpyor I pdduxos, epi
3 / > / a A a“ A ‘ ° ,
dvonatwyv dpldrntos pabeiv Set 6 87 Kal evdei-
/ A / o > ” A /
Kvucbdv cou TH E€vw, Ste odK HOEvoba TO wavOdvew
Lg c¢ ~ \ > 4 ~ ~ oe
oTt of avOpwror KaAodar ev emt TH Tor@de, Stay
a >
tis €€ apyfs pndeuiay Exwv emoTiunv mepl mpay-
patos Twos €mecta votrepov adtrod AapBdvyn THv
emioTnunv, Kadota. Sé€ tadto todro Kai émedav
Exwv 7On Tv emoTHny TavTH TH emoTHun Tad-
A ~ ~ > a hal / hal
Tov ToUTO mpaypa emioKoT 7 mpaTTopevov 7
/ a A t ee. | , ~
Aeyopevov. paddAov pev adro Evrievar Kadodow
bal 4] , ” Ss’ ¢ \ 0, / A de
H pavOdvew, éore dre Kal pavOavew: oe 5é
TobTo, ws odo. évdeikvuvTar, SiadéAnfe, tradro
dvoma én” avOpwmois evavTiws Exovat Kelpevov, emi
T® Te €lddTt Kal emi TH pj TaparAjovv Se
ToUTW Kal TO ev TH SevTépw epwrhpatr, ev @
Hpwtwv oe, moTepa pavOdvovow ot advOpwra a
érioravrat, 7 & pH. tadra 8) TOv pabhudrwr
madd €or S10 Kal dnt eyed cou TovTovs mpoc-
/ ‘ A , A ~ hid > \
mailew* madsav dé A€yw Sia TadTa, OTL, Eb Kal
moOAAd Tis 7) Kal mavTa Ta ToLvadTa pwdBor, TA ev
, 294 na a 297 me, ‘
mpaypata ovdev av pGAAov eidein mH EXEL, TpPOT-
400

EUTHYDEMUS

the celebrants of the Corybantic rites, when they per-
form the enthronement of the person whom they
are about to initiate. There, as you know, if you
have been through it, they have dancing and merry-
making: so here these two are merely dancing
about you and performing their sportive gambols
with a view to your subsequent initiation. You
must now, accordingly, suppose you are listening
to the first part of the professorial mysteries. First
of all, as Prodicus says, you have ‘to learn about the
correct use of words—the very point that our two
visitors are making plain to you, namely, that you
were unaware that learning is the name which
people apply on the one hand to the case of a man
who, having originally no knowledge about some
matter, in course of time receives such knowledge ;
and on the other hand the same word is applied
when, having the knowledge already, he uses that
knowledge for the investigation of the same matter
whether occurring in action or in speech. It is
true that they tend rather to call it understanding than
learning, but occasionally they call it learning too ;
and this point, as our friends are demonstrating,
has escaped your notice—how the same word is
used for people who are in the opposite conditions
of knowing and not knowing. A similar point
underlay the second question, where they asked you
whether people learn what they know, or what they
do not. Such things are the sport of the sciences—
and that is why I tell you these men are making
game of you; I call it sport because, although one
were to learn many or even all of such tricks, one
would be not a whit the wiser as to the true state
of the matters in hand, but only able to make game

401

279

PLATO

mailew 8€ olds 7” av eln tots avOparois Sida TH
T&v ovoudtwy Siadopav trocKkeAilwy Kai ava-
Tpémwv, woTep of Ta oKodvOpia THv peAAdvTwY
Kaliljcecbar troom@vres xaipovot Kai yeAdow,
erevoav wow vrrTiov davateTpappevoy. Taira
[ev Obv Gor Tapa ToUTwY vouule TraLd.ay yeyovevat:
To b€ pera tadra SijAov Sti TovTw yé cor ad’ta Ta
arovdaia evdeiEeabov, Kal eyo bdnynoowar avroiv
a pou UréaxovTo dmoduiceww. eddryy yap eém-
deieobau' rH TpoTpemTuRTy oogiay: vov bé, pou
doxe?, en Oirny mporepov deity maicat mpos Ge.
Tatra pev odv, @ EvOvdnué te Kai Arovvoddwpe,
mrevraicbw te duiv, Kal tows ixav@s Exer- 7 dé 87)
pera. Tabra emdel€aTov TpoTpemovre TO [LELpaKLov,
ors xp7) cogias Te Kal apeTis emyreAnOijvar.
mpoTepov 8 eye op@y evdeiLopar, olov avo brro-
AapBavw Kat olov avrod emObuyd daxotoa éav
otv d6€m tyiv idwttKads te Kai yedoiws adbro
Tovey, ey pov KatayeAGre: bd mpolvpias yap
Tod axodoa Ths tuerépas sodias ToAunow az-
avrooxedidoa evavtiov tudv. avacyecbov odv
ayeAaoti axovovtes adtoi Te Kal ot pabyral dudv:
od dé por, @ mat *A€wyov, amdxpwat.

“Apa ye mdvres dvOpevrrot BovAdpeBa. ed mpar-
Tew; 7 TOOTO ev epurnua ov viv 57) edoBovpny
ev TOV karayeAdoro ; dvdnrov yap Sxjrou Kal To
epwrady Ta Towatra: tis yap ov BovAeras «db mpar-
tew; Ovddeis Satis ovK, Edn 6 KAewias. Elev,
jv 8 éeyw: ro 8) peta Todro, éeid7 BovAducba
ed mpattew, m@s av ed mpdtromev; dp av et

1 émideliacOa: MSS,: émidelEecOac Stephanus.
402

EUTHYDEMUS

of people, thanks to the difference in the sense of
the words, by tripping them up and overturning
them; just as those who slyly pull stools away
from persons who are about to sit down make merry
and laugh when they see one sprawling on one’s back.
So far, then, you are to regard these gentlemen’s
treatment of you as mere play: but after this they
will doubtless display to you their own serious object,
while I shall keep them on the track and see that they
fulfil the promise they gave me. They said they
would exhibit their skill in exhortation ; but instead,
I conceive, they thought fit to make sport with you
first. So now, Euthydemus and Dionysodorus, let
us have done with your sport: I daresay you have
had as much as you want. What you have next
to do is to give us a display of exhorting this youth
as to how he should devote himself to wisdom and
virtue. But first I shall explain to you how I regard
this matter and how I desire to hear it dealt with.
If I strike you as treating it in a crude and ridiculous
manner, do not laugh me to scorn ; for in my eager-
ness to listen to your wisdom I shall venture to
improvise in your presence. So both you and your
disciples must restrain yourselves and listen without
laughing; and you, son of Axiochus, answer me
this :

Do all we human beings wish to prosper? Or
is this question one of the absurdities I was afraid
of just now? For I suppose it is stupid merely to
ask such things, since every man must wish to
prosper.

Everyone in the world, said Cleinias.

Well then, I asked, as to the next step, since we
wish to prosper, how can we prosper? Will it be if

403

PLATO
¢ a ‘ ~ ”
nutv moAdka Kayaba ein; H Tobro éexelvov €rt
> /, ~
evnGeorepov; ShAov yap mov Kat Todro ott ovTws
” , n
exer. Luvédn. Depe 84, ayala dé moia dpa
~ ” a
TOV OvTwY TLyxXdveL Hiv dvTa; 7 OD xaAerroV
29O\ 7 a
ovd€ ceuvod avdpos mavu Tt obdé TodTO EorKkev elvat
> al ~ \ an Wee ” if ‘ a“
evmopetv; mas yap av wyiv eimoL, Ott TO TAOUTETW
> , ~
ayalov: 7 ydp; Ilavy y’, edn. Odxodv Kai ro
dyvaivew Kal TO Kadov elvac Kat TaAAa Kata TO
~ ~ > A
o@pa ixavas mapecxevdobar; Luveddxe. "AAAa
A > / , ‘ /, A \ > ~
pny edyéveral te Kal Suvdpers Kal TYysal ev TH
~ col / /
éavtod dAAd eotw ayaa ovta. “Quoddye. . Ti
S ” ” e ~ ‘ ~ > ~
ov, ednv, ete tpiv Almera Tdv ayabdv; Ti
A > ‘ A 7 7 A , ‘
dpa €otl TO owdpova te elvar Kat Sixatov Kal
A , ¢€ a 4
avdpetov; motepov mpos Avs, & KAewia, wyet ov,
2A ~ A ¢ > , > ~ 7 3 la
éav Tatra TIGpev ws ayabd, dp0@s jyas Oyoew,
¢€ ~ > /
}) €av py; lows yap av tis juiv apdroByricee:
~ A /
cot ¢ mas Soxet; “Ayala, pn 6 KAewias. Elev,
~ ~ /,
fv & éeya: tiv S€ codiay rod xopod tdéfopev; ev
-~ > ff] ~ nn ~ Ar , is "EB a > 6 a
tots ayabots, 7 mas A€yets; vy tots ayabois.
~ ~ > ~
"EvOvpo6 57, wy Te waparcinwpe tTav ayabayr, 6
> , ~ »”
qt Kat agiov Adyov. *AAAd pou Soxodpuev, edn,
A
ovdev, 6 KAewias. Kal ey dvayvnobeis elrov

404

EUTHYDEMUS

we have many good things? Or is this an even
sillier question than the other? For surely this
too must obviously be so.

He agreed.

Come now, of things that are, what sort do we
hold to be really good? Or does it appear to be
no difficult matter, and no problem for an important
person, to find here too a ready answer? Anyone
will tell us that to be rich is good, surely ?

Quite true, he said.

Then it is the same with being healthy and hand-
some, and having the other bodily endowments in
plenty ?

He agreed.

Again, it is surely clear that good birth and talents
and distinctions in one’s own country are good
things.

He admitted it.

Then what have we still remaining, I asked, in
the class of goods? What of being temperate, and
just, and brave? I pray you tell me, Cleinias, do
you think we shall be right in ranking these as
goods, or in rejecting them? For it may be that
someone will dispute it. How does it strike you?

They are goods, said Cleinias.

Very well, I went on, and where in the troupe
shall we station wisdom? Among the goods, or
how ?

Among the goods.

Then take heed that we do not pass over any of
the goods that may deserve mention.

I do not think we are leaving any out,. said

Cleinias.

Hereupon I recollected one and said: Yes, by

VOL. IV o2 405

PLATO

bid ‘ A / , , A 7, ~
ott Nai pa Aia xwdvvedouev ye TO péeyiorov TOV
ayabav mapadireitv. Ti totro; 4 8 os. Tih
> ‘ > , a / 7, ‘ € 4,
edtvxyiav, @ KAewias 6 mavres daci, Kai of mavu
gadAo., péyotov ta&v ayabdv elvar. *AdnOi
, »” \ 3 ‘ > / ,
Aéeyets, Eby. Kal eyd ad mdAw peravojoas elzov
oe > / /, > / 3 A ~
ott "OXiyov Katayédaoror eyevoueba tro TaV
Eévwv ey te Kat av, ® mat ’Agiyov. Ti 8%,
” ~ v > , > a ww
é¢n, todro; “Or edruxiay év tots Eumpoobev
Oguevor viv 81) adfis wept tod adrod éeAdyopev.
Ti ody 8 robdro; Karayédacrov Symov, 6 maAau
, ~ / , \ ‘ b Sees | /,
mpoKettat, TOOT TdAw mpoTiévat Kal dis TadTa Aé€-
yew. Ids, én, todro réyers; ‘H codia dijrov,
IRS 3 , 3 Ld > / ~ A ”“ a if
qv & éyw, edrvxia €oti: TodTo 5é Kav mais yvoin.
‘ “A > / Nd ” / ‘ 77
Kat ds Cavpacev: ovTws ETL véos Te Kal edHOns
> , > ‘ ‘ + 6 / A > b}
€otl' Kayw yvovs adrov Oavydlovra, *Ap’ od«
oicba, édnv, & Krewia, ore mepi adAnudtrwv
edmpayiay ot advAntal edtvyéoratot eiow; Luv-
, > a ares en \ ,
édn. Odxodv, fv 8 eyd, Kai wept ypaypdrwy
ypadis TE Kal avayvwcews of ypaypatioral;
Ildvu ye. Ti 3€; apos rods tis Baddrrns Kw-
Svvovs pv ole edruyeorépovs twas elvar TH&v
ns a c ee A 9.c2m > a
codav KuBepyytav, ws emt wav eimeiv; Od Sita.
Ti 8€; orparevdpevos peta troTtépov av ydvov Tod

1 ypauparicral were the schoolmasters who taught reading
and writing and explained the difficulties of Homer in
primary education.

406

EUTHYDEMUS

Heaven, we are on the verge of omitting the greatest
of the goods.

What is that? he asked.

Good fortune, Cleinias: a thing which all men,
even the worst fools, refer to as the greatest of goods.

You are right, he said.

Once again I reconsidered and said: We have
almost made ourselves laughing-stocks, you and I,
son of Axiochus, for our visitors.

What is wrong now ? he asked.

Why, after putting good fortune in our former list,
we have just been discussing the same thing again.

What is the point ?

Surely it is ridiculous, when a thing has been

_ before us all the time, to set it forth again and go

over the same ground twice.
To what are you referring ? he asked.
Wisdom, I replied, is presumably good fortune :

_ even a child could see that.

He wondered at this—he is still so young and
simple-minded: then I, perceiving his surprise,
went on: Can you be unaware, Cleinias, that for
success in flute-music it is the flute-players that
have the best fortune ?

He agreed to this.

Then in writing and reading letters it will be the

_ schoolmasters.!

Certainly.
Well now, for the dangers of a sea-voyage, do you

¢ consider any pilots to be more fortunate, as a general
rule, than the wise ones ?

No, to be sure.
Well, then, suppose you were on a campaign,
with which kind of general would you prefer to

407

280

PLATO

Kwdvvov Te Kal THs TUYyNS peTexoLs, meTA Todos
~ ” > > ~ A lot ’
otpatnyod 7 pet apyalods; Mera aodod. Ti
/, > ~ A , ba) 3 / 7
dé; aclevav peta motépov av Hdéws Kwdvvevors,
peta aodod iatpod 7 per’ auabods; Mera codod.
7A > > > S > 7 7 > , an ”
p odv, Hv eyw, OTe evTuxXéoTEpov ay olet
4, A ~ / “a > > ~
mpaTTew peta copod mpdttwv 7 pet apuabods;
_ vs ¢ / ” a > ~
Euvexwper. “H codia dpa mavrayod etruyeiv
moet Tovs avOpdrovs. od yap SHmov awaprdvor
y’ av moré Tis Godia add’ dvdyKn ops mpdrrew
‘ 4 2 \ ” > , 4 ”
kal Tuyydvew* 7 yap av ovKétt codia ein.
Luvwporoynoducba redevt@vres odK 01d Grws
> aA 7 Ld = ~ wv / 4
ev kehadaim ovtw robro éxew, aodias mapovons,
@ av maph, wndev mpoodetobas edrvyias: émevd7 dé
a / 7 > , >
TotTo ouvwpodoynodpcba, mdAw éemvvOaveuny ad-
Tob Ta TpdTEepov WuodAoynueva THs av Hiv Exot.
‘Quodroyjcapev ydp, epnv, et Hiv ayala moAAa
/ Pe) ~ Bas \ » / 53: /
mapein, evdayovety av Kal ed mpaTreww. uvedn.
*Ap’ odv eddapovotpev av dia Ta Tapdvta ayaba,
et pendev Huds Wdedoi 7 et Whedot; Ei wdedoi?,
édn. “Ap” obdv av tu wdedo?, et etn povoy Huiv,
a t / ad
xp@pcba 8 adrois uy; olov aria ei qyiv <in
/, > , A , hal /, t be ,
moAAd, eobiouwev SE wy, 2 TOTOV, Tivomer dé 7},
~ cd
éo8” 5 te Whedoiped” av; Od dita, edn. Ti dé;
: > a /
of Sypuovpyot mdvres, et adtois ein mavTa Ta

408

EUTHYDEMUS

share both the peril and the luck—a wise one, or
an ignorant ?

With a wise one.

Well then, supposing you were, sick, with which
kind of doctor would you like to venture yourself—
a wise one, or an ignorant ?

With a wise one.

And your reason, I said, is this, that you would
fare with better fortune in the hands of a wise one
than of an ignorant one ?

He assented.

So that wisdom everywhere causes men to be
fortunate: since I presume she could never err, but
must needs be right in act and result ; otherwise she
could be no longer wisdom.

We came to an agreement somehow or other in
the end that the truth in general was this: when
wisdom is present, he with whom it is present has no
need of good fortune as well; and as we had agreed
on this I began to inquire of him over again what
we should think, in this case, of our previous agree-
ments. For we agreed, said I, that if many goods
were present to us we should be happy and prosper.

Yes, he said.

Then would we be happy because of our present
goods, if they gave us no benefit, or if they gave us
some ?

If they gave us benefit, he said.

And would a thing benefit us if we merely had it
and did not use it? For instance, if we had a lot
of provisions, but did not eat them, or liquor, and did
not drink it, could we be said to be benefited ?

Of course not, he answered.

Well then, if every craftsman found the requisites

409

281

PLATO

> /, lol
emurnoeva mapeoKevacpeva. éxdoTtw eis TO éavTod
epyov, Xp@vro & abrois pj, dp’ av obrou eb mpar-
Tovey dua THY Kriow, ore KeKTnpEevor elev mavTa &
det KexTiabar tov Sypwovpydv; olov téxrwv, et
Tapeckevacpevos «in TA TE Opyava amavTa Kal
4 e , / A 7 ” > @ > a_>
EvAa ixavd, textaivoito Sé uy, €o8” 6 te WdheAoir
” > ‘ ~ / > ~ ” 7 /
av amo tis KTycews; Ovddapyads, edn. Ti dé,
” lod ~
el Tis KEKTHMLEVOS «in TAODTOV TE Kal a vov 87
> ~ “~
eAéyouev mavra Ta ayabd, yp@ro 8é adrois pm,
> a ~ ~
dp av evdamovot dia tiv tTovTwy KTiow Tov
~ ~ ~ »”
ayabav; Od Sfra, & Led«pates. Activ dadpa,
epnv, Ws €ouke, pt) wovov KexTHoOa Ta Tovadra
ayaa tov péAAovra evdaipova eoeoba, ddAAa Kal
a a ~ ,
xpjo8ar adrois: ws ovdev odedos -Tis KTHTEWS
~ /
yiyverat. "AdnOR dAéyers. *Ap’ odv, & KAcewwia,
78n To’Trw ixavw"* mpos TO eddaipova movfoal Ta,
TO TE KeKTHOOa Tayala Kai TO xpHobar adrois;
"BE 7 Il / Ss 8’ > 4 3A > 6 ~
provye doxet. OTEpov, HV eyw, eav opbads
a / * \ 24 f-4 -Ea > 08 K Ad
XpHrat Tis H Kal eav pr; av op0ds. Kards
a /,
dé, Hv 8 eyw, Aéyers. mAciov ydp mov, oluar,
a ~ ae* Se a
Odrepov €orw, édv Tis xphrar oTwodv pu) oplds
~ / ‘ \ wv
mpaypatt 7) av eG: TO ev yap KaKov, TO Se ovTE
\ 4 > / a” > ¢ /, _ —
Kakov ovte ayaldov: 7 ody otrw dapev; Buv-
~ , ~
exper. Ti odv; €v TH epyacia Te Kal xpyoet TH
~ > /,
wept Ta EvAa pa@v aAdo ti €ott TO amepyalopevov
a 7” / >
6pb&s xphoba 7 emoripn % texTouKyn; Od

1 rotvrw ixava R. G. Bury: rodro ixavdv, rotrw KadAlw, TovTw
KaAXiw MSS.

410

ee

ee

sn ieee ns

8 Ha

EUTHYDEMUS

for his particular work all ready prepared for him,
and then made no use of them, would he prosper
because of these acquisitions, as having acquired all
the things necessary for a craftsman to have at hand?
For example, if a carpenter were furnished with
all his tools and a good supply of wood, but did no
carpentry, is it possible he could be benefited by
what he had got ?
By no means, he said.
Well now, suppose a man had got wealth and all
the goods that we mentioned just now, but made no

-use of them; would he be happy because of his

possessing these goods ?

Surely not, Socrates.

So it seems one must not merely have acquired
such goods if one is to be happy, but use them too;
else there is no benefit gained from their possession.

True.

Then have we here enough means, Cleinias, for
making a man happy—in the possession of these
goods and using them ?

I think so.

Shall we say, I asked, if he uses them rightly,
or just as much if he does not?

If rightly.

Well answered, I said; for I suppose there is
more mischief when a man uses anything wrongly
than when he lets it alone. In the one case there is
evil; in the other there is neither evil nor good.
May we not state it so?

He agreed.

To proceed then: in the working and use con-
nected with wood, is there anything else that effects
the right use than the knowledge of carpentry ?

411

PLATO

~ ” > ~
Sjra, én. "AG pv mov Kal ev rH epi Td
t4 > , 4 > ~ > , > ‘ ¢€ >
akevn epyacia TO opbds emorhun eoTl 7 am-
epyalopevn. Luvédn. Ap’ odv, Hv 8 eyw, Kai
\ ~ ~
Tept THY xpelav av eA€yowev TO TP@Tov THY aya-
~ , oa 2 / ‘ 4, y 3 A
Oav, mAovTOV Te Kai byreias Kai KdAAOUS, TO OpOGs
maou Tots Tovovtas xpHobas emorHun jv 7 Wyov-
evn Kal Katopbotca tiv mpaéw, 7 aAAo 71; > Em-
/ > > Ld > / ” > , > A
oTHn, 4 8 os. Od povov dpa edruyiav, adda
Kal edmpaylav, ws €oiKev, 7) emLOTHUN Tapéexer ev
maon KTHoE Te Kal mpd&er. “Quodrdyer. Ap’
otv @ mpos Aus, Hv 8 eyed, ddeAds Tt TOV GAAwY
/, + , ‘ ‘ , nn
KTnaTwWY avev dpovyncews Kat codias; dpa ye av
” »” A , A eB!
dvaito avOpwaos moAAa KeKTnevos Kat modAa
mpattwv voov pn exw, wadAov 7 dAiya®; de
\ , 2 2\/ ped 2\ 7 ” >
d€ oxome: ovK éeAdTTwW mpaTTwv éAdtTw av €&-
/ > / se / ” ~
apapravot, eAdtTw Sé duaptavey Arrov av Kak@s
/ \ ~ , »”
mpatTo., WTTov dé KaK@s mpattwv abAws Frrov
av ein; Ilavu y’, edn. Ildrepov ody av paddov
> / , , a” a” , ,
eAdtTw Tis TMpaTToL TEéevys wv } TAovowos; Ilévys,
edn. Ildrepov dé aoberns 7 icxupds; *Acberis.
Ildrepov 5é evtipos 7 atywos; “Atiwos. Tdrepov
A > a“ n“ ‘ / > / n”“ Ld nn
Sé avdpeios wv Kai owdpwv eAdtTw av mpatTo 7

1 4 Badham.
2 waddov 4} dAtya lambl.: # waddov driya vodv Exwv MSS.

412

EUTHYDEMUS

Surely not, he said.

Further, I presume that in the working connected
with furniture it is knowledge that effects the right
work.

Yes, he said.

Then similarly, I went on, in the use of the goods
we mentioned at first—wealth and health and
beauty—was it knowledge that showed the way to
the right use of all those advantages and rectified
their conduct, or was it something else ?

Knowledge, he replied.

So that knowledge, it would seem, supplies man-
kind not only with good luck, but with welfare, in all
that he either possesses or conducts.

He agreed.

Then can we, in Heaven’s name, get any benefit
from all the other possessions without understanding
and wisdom? Shall we say that a man will profit
more by possessing much and doing much when he
has no sense, than he will if he does and possesses
little? Consider it this way : would he not err less
if he did less; and so, erring less, do less ill; and
hence, doing less ill, be less miserable ?

Certainly, he said.

In which of the two cases, when one is poor or
when one is rich, will one be more likely to do
less ?

When one is poor, he said.

And when one is weak, or when one is strong ?

Weak.

And when one has high position, or has none ?

None.

When one is brave and self-controlled, will one do
less, or when one is a coward ?

413

282

PLATO
Settds; Acids. Odxodv Kat dpyds paddov
epydrns; Lvveydper. Kat Bpadds paddov
Taxvs, Kal auBrAd dpav Kal axovwv paddrov } ov;

W323

/ ‘ ~ ~
Ilavra ra tovatra Evveywpodpuev adAjAats.
> ,
Ev xedadaiw 8, édnv, & Krewia, xwdvveder
, a“ A ~ ” > \ > \
ovpTavTa, 4 TO mp@rov epapev ayaa civas, od mept
Sg ¢ Xr / > a iJ . 4, >
tovtov 6 Adyos adrois elvar, dmws adra ye Kal

ern , \
avra mépuKxev ayabd, add’ ws Eouxev Wd Exer* Eav

\ 27 A ce a > , , \ a
pev adbra@v nyjra auabia, weilw Kaka elvar TOV
2 f -§ ~ _-~
evavtiwv, Gow Suvatwtepa danpeteiv TH Hyov-

, ~ 2\ \ , t \ ,
bevy KaKk@ ovr edav S€ dpdvynais te Kai oodia,

, > 4 ~
peilw ayaba: adra Sé Kal’? atbra ovdérepa adTav

‘ ”
ovdevos afta elvar. WDaiverar, Epn, ws CovKer,

4 e AY , , > Cc a , >
ovtws, ws od éyers. Ti odv yyyiv ovpBaiver éx
To&v elpnuevwy; GAXo Te } THY pev aGAAwv oddev
“ ” > ‘ a” / 4 4 a wv
dv ovte ayabdv ode Kaxov, TovTow Se dvoiv dvrow

/
pev codgia ayabor, » Sé duabia Kaxdv; ‘Quo-
Adyet.

"Ext tolvuv, édnv, 7d Aourov emoxepapeBa.
>? \ b] 7 \ f /
eed) eddaipoves pev elvar tpoPvpovpela aves,
edavypev S€é Tovodror yuyvopevor €x TOD xpHobat Te

a / ‘ > 4] ~ , ~ ia] A de > 6 /
rots mpdypact Kal dp0&s xphobar, trav de opbo-

/ a ,

TnTa Kal edrvylav emoTyun 7 Tapéxovoa, Set 57),

ws Couey, eK TavTOS TpdOTOV amavTa avdpa TodTO

/ Li e 4 é . bal

mapackevalecbar, Srws ws sodwratos €oTat 7
414

——————

aut eet ee

EUTHYDEMUS
A coward.
So too, when idle rather than busy ?
He agreed.

And slow rather than quick, and dim of sight and
hearing rather than sharp ?

We agreed with each other as to these and all
such cases.

To sum up then, Cleinias, I proceeded, it seems
that, as regards the whole lot of things which at
first we termed goods, the discussion they demand
is not on the question of how they are in themselves
and by nature goods, but rather, I conceive, as
follows: if they are guided by ignorance, they are
greater evils than their opposites, according as they
are more capable of ministering to their evil guide ;

' whereas if understanding and wisdom guide them,

they are greater goods ; but in themselves neither
sort is of any worth.

I think the case appears, he replied, to be as you
suggest.

Now what result do we get from our statements ?
Is it not precisely that, of all the other things, not
one is either good or bad, but of these two, wisdom
is good and ignorance bad ?

He agreed.

Let us consider then, I said, the further conclusion
that lies before us. Since we are all eager to be
happy, and since we were found to become so by
not only using things but using them aright, while
knowledge, we saw, was that which provided the
rightness and good fortune, it seems that every
man must prepare himself by all available means
so that he may be as wise as possible. Is it not
so?

415

PLATO

»” ~
ov; Nai, edn. Kai rapa matpds ye Syrov tobro
oidpevov Seiv trapaAapBdvew moAd paAdov 7} xp7-

‘ > > / A / ~ ”
para, Kat map’ éemitpoTwv Kai dilwy Tdv te dAAwv
\ ~ ~
kal TOv dackovtwy epactav elvar, Kat Eevwv Kal
modtav, Seduevov Kai ixerevovta ocodias pera-
/ 3O 4 > / > / 29O\ ‘
diddvat, oddev aicypov, ® KAewia, ovdé veweonrov
€veka TovTou Uanpereiv Kal SovAevew Kal epacth

‘ 5 ee / ¢ ~ 27 ¢ aA ~.
Kal travti avOpHrw, otiobv ebéAovta brnpetetv TOV

KaAa@v banpeTnudatwv, mpobvjpovpevov aodov yeve-
bal >? ~ ” > / 4 /, \
aba: 7 od doxe? cou, pny yw, ovrws; [lavu pev
otv «d poe Soxeis A€yew, 4 8’ 6s. Ei €ore ye; @
KAewia, jv & eyd, 7 codia didaxrdv, adda pr)
am6 tavToudrov tapaylyverat tots avOpeérois.
TovTo yap Hiv ere GoKxeTTov Kal ovmw Suwpodro-
, or pel \ , > >» iy
ynuevov ewoi te Kai ool. "AXN euorye, edn, @
Lewkpares, Sidaxrov civat Soxei. Kal éya Habeis
elzov: 7H Kadds déyeis, @ apote avdpav, Kat bd
emoinoas amadAdgas pe oxéyews mrodAAis epi
tovtov avtov, motepov Sidaxrov 7) ov SidaKrov
e / ~ s > P) / ‘ 8 8 ‘ PS) -~
7 copia. viv odv eed) aor Kai didaKrov SoKei
Kal povov TOV dvTwy evdaimova Kal evTUXH ToLEtV
A ” »” *” / n” > a
Tov avOpwrov, aAXo tt 7) dains av dvayKaiov elvar
prrocopety Kat avrtos é€v v@ €éxets adto mroveiv;
Ildvv pev obv, &dn, @ Eeixpares, ws oldv Te
paAvora.
~ ” > , ‘ ‘ > /

Kaya) taira dopevos axotoas, To pev epov,
édnv, mapdderypa, & Avovvaddwpé te Kai Evéu-
Snpe, olwv emiOvypd ta&v mpotpentixdv Adywv
elvat, towdrov, idwwrikov tows Kai ports dia
416

EUTHYDEMUS

Yes, he said.

And if a man thinks, as well he may, that he
ought. to get this endowment from his father much
more than money, and also from his guardians and
his ordinary friends, and from those who profess
to be his lovers, whether strangers or fellow-citizens
—praying and beseeching them to give him his share
of wisdom ; there is no disgrace, Cleinias, or repro-
bation in making this a reason for serving and being
a slave to either one’s lover or any man, and being
ready to perform any service that is honourable
in one’s eagerness to become wise. Is not this your
view ? I asked.

I think you are perfectly right, he replied.

Yes, Cleinias, I went on, if wisdom is teachable,
and does not present itself to mankind of its own
aecord—for this is a question that we have still to
consider as not yet agreed on by you and me.

For my part, Socrates, he said, I think it is
teachable.

At this I was glad, and said : Well spoken indeed,
my excellent friend! How good of you to relieve
me of a long inquiry into this very point, whether
wisdom is teachable or not teachable! So now,
since you think it is both teachable and the only
thing in the world that makes man happy and
fortunate, can you help saying that it is necessary to
pursue wisdom or intending to pursue it yourself ?

Why, said he, I do say so, Socrates, with all my
might.

So I, delighted to hear this, said : There, Dionyso-
dorus and Euthydemus, is my illustration of what
I desire a hortatory argument to be—rough and
ready, perhaps, and expressed at laborious length :

417

283

PLATO

paKpa@v Aeyopevov ada@v S€ omdrepos BotAerat,
Tavrov TobTO TEXVN TPATTwY emBeEarw net. et
d€ jut) TodTo BovAcobor, dbev eya daréhurrov, TO
éfijs emBelEaTov 7 peipakiw, moTEpov méoav
emoTHnv Set adrov Krado0a, 7 €or Tis pla, Tv
de? AaBovra, evdauyoveiv TE kal dyaBov apa
elvat, kat tis airy. ws yap eAeyor dpxopevos,
mept 7oAXob 7) py Tuyxaver Ov TOVdE TOV VveavicKoV
coddv TE Kat dyabloy yeveoOa.

"Eye pev obv Tatra elzov, @ Kpirev- TO be
pera Tobro eoopevy mave opddpa mpoceixov TOV
voodv, Kal emeoKdmrovv, tiva. moTé Tpomov dxpowro
Too Adyou Kal o7dbev dpfowro Tapaxeevdpevor TO
veaviok@ cogiay TE Kal apeTnv aoKeiv. 6 oobv
mpeapirepos avTa@v, é Avovvaddwpos, TpoTEpos
TIPXETO tod Adyou, Kal jets mdvres eBAéropev
mpos adrov ws avbrixa pdda dKovodpevar Bav-
pLactous Twas Adyous omrep obv Kal ovvepn jp
Davpacrov yap Twa, @ Kpirwv, av7p KaTHpXe
Adyov, ob: ool agvov a akovoal, WSs TapaKeAevaTLKOS 6
Adyos Hv en’ aperHy.

Eimé por, fn, ® LewKparés te Kai vyets oi
GAAot, doo. gate emiOvpeiy tovde Tov veavioxov
codov yevéobar, motepov mailete Tatra AéyovtTes
q ws aAnOds émBvpetre Kal orovddlere;

Kayo dvevoyOnv, ote ayOyrnv dpa judas To
mpotepov mailew, yvika éexeAedouev SdiadrexOjvar
T® veavioxw avTwd, kat dia tadra mpoceraodrny
TE Kal OvK €oTovdacdTnVY’ Tabra obv Siavonbeis Ett
padAov elzov, dtt Oavpactrds omovddlomerv.

Kai 6 Atovvaddwpos,. Xkdme pjv, edn, @
Lad«pates, Orws pn eEapvos eoa a viv dA€yeis.
418

EUTHYDEMUS

now let either of you who wishes to do so give us
an example of an artist’s handling of this same matter.
If you do not wish to do that, let your display begin
where I-left off, and show the lad whether he ought
to acquire every kind of knowledge, or whether
there is a single sort of it which one must obtain
if one is to be both happy and a good man, and what
it is. For as I was saying at the outset, it really
is a matter of great moment to us wt this youth
should become wise and good.

These were my words, Crito ; pad I set about
giving the closest attention to what should follow,
and observing in what fashion they would deal with
the question, and how they would start exhorting
the youth to practise wisdom and virtue. So then
the elder of them, Dionysodorus, entered first upon
the discussion, and we all turned our eyes on him
expecting to hear, there and then, some wonderful
arguments. And this result we certainly got; for
wondrous, in a way, Crito, was the argument that the
man then ushered forth, which is worth your hearing
as a notable incitement to virtue.

Tell me, Socrates, he said, and all you others who
say you desire this youth to become wise, whether
you say this in jest or truly and earnestly desire it.

At this I reflected that previously, as it seemed,
they took us to be jesting, when we urged them to
converse with the youth, and hence they made a
jest of it and did not take it seriously. This reflec-
tion therefore made me insist all the more that we
were in deadly earnest.

Then Dionysodorus said: Yet be careful, Socrates,
that you do not have to deny what you say now.

419

284

PLATO

"Eoxeppor, hv 8 eyad: od yap pH mor’ eapvos
yerwpa. Ti otv; én: daré BovrAccba adrov
aogpov yevécbar; T[lavu pev odv. Néiv dé, 4 8 ds,
KAewias wétepov aodds eorw 7 od; OvKxovy dyai
yé mw: éott 5é odk adalwv. ‘“Ypeis dé, edn,
BovAeobe yevéobar atrov coddv, apab_ Sé pr
> ¢ ~ ? ~ a A > ”

elvat; ‘Quodoyotpev. Odxodv ds péev odK ort,

4 > ‘ / “a > ” ~ /
BovAeobe atbrov yevéobar, ds 8 ort viv, pynKére

\ > ‘A > tA > / ¢ /
elvat. Kal eyd axovoas elopuBnOnv- 6 S€ pov
BopvBovpévov brodaBav, "AAAo tu obv, edn, emei

, > / “ ~ > / , > uA
BovAcobe atrov, és viv éori, pnKéte eivar, Bov-
Aeobe adrov, ws gouxev, dmoAwdévar; Kaitou mod-
Aod av aor ot Tovobrox elev dirou Te Kal epacrai,
oitwes Ta TaLloLKa TEpl TavTOs av ToLjcawTo
> /
e€oAwAevar.

‘ ¢ E , > tA > , , e \

Kai 6 Krijourmos axovcas tyyavaxryoé te trép
Tov mavdikav Kat elev? *Q. Edve Oovpie, ci pr)
+ / ww > > cal os + ‘ >
dypouxdTepov, €bn, Hv eimeiv, elmov av, col els
Kehadjny, 6 Te pabdv pov Kal Tav adAwy Kara-
wevder ToLlodro mpaypa, 6 eyw olpat odd’ Sovov
civar A€yew, ws eye Tovde Bovdoiny av éoAw-
Advat.

Ti dé, fn, & Kriyjourme, 6 Ev0vdnuos, 7 Soxei
cou olov 7° elvar wevdeo8a; Nz Aia, edn, ef pi
pratvowal ye. Ildrepov Aéyovra TO mpaypa, zepi

ce wn ¢ / > “ A / 4 ”
od av 6 Adyos H, H pr A€yovra; Aé€yovra, edn.
Odxobdy elmep Adyer adrd, otk dAdo Aéyer THY
420

>. A wt. at. eee ee

EUTHYDEMUS

I know what I am about, I said: I know I shall
never deny it.

Well now, he proceeded ; you tell me you wish
him to become wise ?

Certainly.

And at present, he asked, is Cleinias wise or not ?

He says he is not yet so—he is no vain pretender.

And you, he went on, wish him to become wise,
and not to be ignorant ?

We agreed.

So you wish him to become what he is not, and to
be no longer what he now is.

When I heard this I was confused; and he,
striking in on my confusion, said : Of course then,
since you wish him to be no longer what he now is,
you wish him, apparently, to be dead. And yet
what valuable friends and lovers they must be, who
would give anything to know their darling was dead
and gone !

Ctesippus, on hearing this, was annoyed on his
favourite’s account, and said: Stranger of Thurii,
were it not rather a rude thing to say, I should tell
_ you, ill betide your design of speaking so falsely
__ of me and my friends as to make out—what to me is
_ almost too profane even to repeat—that I could
_ wish this boy to be dead and gone!

Why, Ctesippus, said Euthydemus, do you think
it possible to lie ?

_ To be sure, I do, he replied: I should be mad

_ otherwise.

_ Do you mean, when one tells the thing about

_ which one is telling, or when one does not ?

When one tells it, he said.

Then if you tell it, you tell just that thing

421

PLATO
¥ a. ‘
ovtwy 7 éxeivo dmep Adyar; Tlds yap av; edn o
K / *E \ > af b aoe | \ ~ wv
THOMTOS. v pny Kakelve y earl Tdv ovTwr,

6 Eyer, ywpis Tov GAwv. lav ye. Ovdxodv

On

exetvo A€ywv TO Ov, édy, A€yer; Nai. *AAAa
uv & ye TO dv Aéywv Kal Ta OvTa TAaANOA A€yer”
wate 6 Avovvaddwpos, eizep A€yer Ta OvTa, A€yer
TaAnOA Kat oddév Kata cot evderar. Nat, dy
GW’ 6 tabra déywr, edn 6 Krijourmos, & Evdv-
dye, od Ta OvrTa Aéyer. Kal 6 EdOvsypos, Ta de
py ovta, bn, GAXo Te H odK eoTw; OvdK EoTw.
"AMo tt obv oddapod Ta ye pr) dvTa ovTa eoTiv;
Odvdapod. “Eorw obdv Srws wept tadra Ta p47)

1 ,
TOLI)OELEV

” / ” , ¢ ‘ a:

ovTa mpd&eev av Tis TL, WOTE Kal elvat

nn ‘ ¢ ~ ‘ a~ > ”

av Kal dotioobv Ta pndayod ovta; OdK Eporye
a ” e cs

Soxe?t, €fn 6 Krijourmos. Ti odv; ot prjropes

° , > ~ 4 2D 4 4

otav Adywow ev TH Siw, ovdev mparrovow;

IIparrovor pev otv, 4 8 ds. Ovdxody <imep

, \ a N , Ts, é ¥
TPaTTOVGL, KAL TOLOVOLD ; at. Oo AeyelwW apa —

/ ‘ ~ > / c / >
mpatrew Te Kai moet €otiv; “Quoddynoev. OvdK

»” , ee ats Daeg Hé 55 rae a EAT
apa Ta YE [7 OVT , €dy, €yel OQUOELS* TOLOL Yap

dv 70n Ti: od S€ cpodAdynKkas TO py) dv pn ofdv 7

1 Sore kal elvac Hermann: dor’ éxeiva, ws ye KNewig KTA. MSS.

422

.

<

EUTHYDEMUS

which you tell, of all that are, and nothing else
whatever ?

Of course, said Ctesippus.

Now the thing that you tell is a single one, distinct
from all the others there are.

Certainly.

Then the person who tells that thing tells that
which is ?

Yes.

But yet, surely he who tells what is, and things
that are, tells the truth: so that Dionysodorus,
if he tells things that are, tells the truth and speaks
no lie about you.

Yes, said Ctesippus ; but he who speaks as he did,
Euthydemus, does not say things that are.

Then Euthydemus asked him: And the things
which are not, surely are not ?

They are not.

Then nowhere can the things that are not be ?

Nowhere.

Then is it possible for anyone whatever so to deal
with these things that are not as to make them be
when they are nowhere ?

I think not, said Ctesippus.

Well now, when orators speak before the people,
do they do nothing ?

No, they do something, he replied.

Then if they do, they also make?

Yes.

Now, is speaking doing and making?

He agreed that it is.

No one, I suppose, speaks what is not—for thereby
he would be making something ; and you have agreed

_ that one cannot so much as make what is not—so

423

PLATO

elvar unde movetv? Wore Kara Tov aov Adyov oddels
yevdn A€yer, GAN eimep Aé€yer Avovvaddwpos,
TaAnOH Te Kat Ta ovtTa Aéyer. Ni Ata, epn 6
Krijourmos, @ Evdvdnpe: GMa, Ta ovTa ev
Tporrov Twa Aéyer, od pevToe Ws ye Exe.

Ilds A€yes, Edn 6 Avovvaddwpos, & Kriourme;
eiot yap Twes, ot A€yovot Ta TpdypaTa ws Exe;
Eiot peévrou, én, ot kahoi te Kayabot Kai ot Ta-
An Fj A€yovres. Ti obv ; 7 8’ 6s: tayaba ov« «d,
ehn, exer, TA S€ KaKA KaK@s; Lvveywper. Tods
d€ Kadovs te Kayalovds dpuodoyets A€yew ws exet
Ta mpdypara ; : ‘Opodoya. Kars dpa, Eby,
A€yovow, ® Krone, of ayabot Ta. KaKd, €l7ep
ws exe Agyovor. Nai pa Aia, 7 8’ ds, opddpa ve,
Tovs ‘yoov KaKods dvOpebrrous: év od, edy joe
meOn, evAaBnoet elvan, iva un oe of ayaboi KaKds

éywow. as ed tof ore Kands A€yovow ot
ayabot tots Kaxots. *H Kai tods peyddous,
én 6 Evdv0udnuos, peydAws Adyovot Kat Tovs
Beppovds Deppas ; MdAtora Symov, edn 6 Krijo-
ummos* Tovs yoov buxpovs puxpas A€yoval Te Kai
gaci SiadéyeoBar. Xd pev, dn 6 Avovvaddwpos,
AowWopei, a) Krijourze, Aodope?. Ma v ovK
éywye, 7 8 és, é Avovvaddupe, érel PiA@ oe,
aAAa voubera a ws €raipov, Kal Tmeup@pat meiOew
pndémote evavtiov e“od ovTws aypoikws Aé€yew,

1 The quibbling throughout this passage is a wilful con-
fusion of the two very different uses of the verb *‘to be”
(elvat), (a) in predication, where it has nothing to do with
existence, and (6) by itself, as stating existence.

2 Euthydemus seizes on the ambiguous use of KakOs,
which may mean either ‘‘ badly ” or ‘‘ injuriously.”

424

i i i

ss

oo eee

‘whet

ao.

«ae Ae |

EUTHYDEMUS

that, by your account, no one speaks what is false,
while if Dionysodorus speaks, he speaks what is
true and is.

Yes, in faith, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus; but
somehow or other he speaks what is, only not as it
is

How do you mean, Ctesippus? said Dionyso-
dorus. Are there persons who tell things as they
are ?

Why surely, he replied, there are gentlemen—
people who speak the truth ?

Well, he went on, good things are in good case,
bad in bad, are they not ?

He assented.

And you admit that gentlemen tell things as they
are.

I do.

Then, Ctesippus, good people speak evil of evil
things, if they speak of them as they are.

Yes, I can tell you, very much so, when for instance
they speak of evil men; among whom, if you take
my advice, you will beware of being included, that
the good may not speak ill of you. For, I assure
you, the good speak ill® of the evil.

And they speak greatly of the great, asked
Euthydemus, and hotly of the hot ?

Certainly, I presume, said Ctesippus: I know
they speak frigidly of the frigid, and call their
way of arguing frigid.

You are turning abusive, Ctesippus, said Dionyso-
dorus, quite abusive !

Not I, on my soul, Dionysodorus, for I like you :
I am only giving you a friendly hint, and endeavour-
ing to persuade you never to say anything so tactless

425

3

PLATO

285 ore eya todrous BovAouar eEolwAévar, ods mrept
TrAclorou Trowob ua.

"Eyaw ovv, emeloy [LoL eOdKOUV aypiwrépwrs mpos
dAArjAous € EXEL, mpooéraulov Te Tov Krijourmov | Kal
elov ore *Q _Krijowrne, €mot pev doxet xpivar
Huas Tapa Tav févev dexeobau & A€yovow, éav
ebeAwor dvddvar, Kal p47) Ovopate Siadhéepecbar. et
yap emmloTavTat ovrws efoAdvvat dvOpesrrous, aor’
EK Tovnp@v te Kal dadpovew XpyoTous Te Kal
eudpovas mroveiy, Kal Toro elite avTw evpijKarov

B cite Kat Top” dAov tov euabérny dbdpov Twa. Kal
d\eBpov ToLOvTOV, WOTE dmodécavres Tovnpov ovTa.
xpnotov mdaAw amodfvas: ei todro émicracbov—
dAAov bé, drt emiotacbov: épdrny yodv thy réxvynv
ofdv civat tiv veworl edpnuevnv ayabods moveiv
Tous dvOpebmous ek TOVYPAV—ovyxXwphowpev obv
abroty avro: dmohecdytiy npiv TO jeetpacvov Kal
dpovysov Touadvrw, Kal dmavrds ve pas Tous
adAXdovs. «i dé dyeis ot véor doBetabe, wWomep ev

C Kapi év euot gotw 6 Kivdvvos: ws eyo, ered)
Kat mpeoBurns eit, TmapaKxwodvvevew EToywos Kai
mapadidcpe ewaurov Avovucoddipw Toure womep
TH Myseia rH Kody: amroAdvTw pe, Kal €t pev
Bodera, eer, e.8',07Tt BotAeras, ToOTo TOLELTW*
Lvov xpnorov dmodnvdru. kal 6 Kriourmos,
"Eye pev, dn, kal adros, & Lesepares, Eroysds
eit Trapéxew epavtov Tots f€vors, Kat éay Bov-
Awvrau Sépew € ETL paMov 7 7 vov Sépovaw, el pol 7)

D dopa pr eis aoxov tedXeuTHCEL Worrep 7) TOD Map-

Oe Oe

1 Lit. “ a Carian slave.” : a
2 This satyr was fabled to have challenged Apollo toa
musical contest, and on his fluting being judged inferior to

426 . ff

EUTHYDEMUS

_ in my presence as that I wish these my most highly
valued friends to be dead and gone.

So then I, observing that they were getting rather
savage with each other, began to poke fun at
_ Ctesippus, saying: Ctesippus, my feeling is that we
ought to accept from our visitors what they tell us,
if they are so good as to give it, and should not
quarrel over a word. For if they understand how
to do away with people in such sort as to change
them from wicked and witless to honest and intelli-
gent, and that too whether they have discovered
for themselves or learnt from somebody else this
peculiar kind of destruction or undoing, which en-
ables them to destroy a man in his wickedness and
set him up again in honesty ; if they understand this
—and obviously they do; you know they said that
their newly discovered art was to turn wicked
men into good—let us then accord them this
power; let them destroy the lad for us, and make
_ him sensible, and all the rest of us likewise. If you
young fellows are afraid, let the experiment be
_ made on me as a corpus vile}; for I, being an elderly
_ person, am ready to take the risk and put myself
_ in the hands of Dionysodorus here, as if he were
_ the famous Medea of Colchis. Let him destroy me,
_ and if he likes let him boil me down, or do to me
_ whatever he pleases: only he must make me good.
_ Then Ctesippus said: I too, Socrates, am ready
_ to offer myself to be skinned by the strangers even
_ more, if they choose, than they are doing now, if
_ my hide is not to end by being made into a wine-skin,
_ like that of Marsyas,? but into the shape of virtue.
_ Apollo’s harping he was flayed alive by the god for his
_ presumption, and his skin was hung up like a bag or bottle
in a cave; cf. Herod. vii. 26.

427

286

PLATO

, > s >
avov, add’ eis dperyiv. Kaito. pe olerar Atovyad-
Swpos odtoot xaderraivew abr@: eyd dé od xare-
Taivw, add’ davridyw mpos tadra, d por SoKet
mpos pe pt) KaADs AEyew GAAA od TO avriéyew,
” a
edn, ® yevvate Avovvaddmpe, pir) Kader AowWopet-
oe / s--9 ‘ a
aba: €repov ydp Ti eat TO AowWopetobar.
Kai 6 Avovvaddwpos, ‘Os dvros, ébn, Tod avri-
>
Xr / * / a \ / 4,
éyew, @ Kriyourme, moved rods Adyous; [ldavrws
dijmov, én, kal ofddpa ye 7) ad, & Avovyaddwpe,
> ” > 4 La 4 A »”
ovK ole. elvar avtirdyew; OdKxovy ot rav, édy,
> / / > tA > ‘ > 4
amodeiEais mwmoTE akovoas ovdevds avTiAéyovTOS
a x 4
erépov erépw. *AAnOA A€yeis; edn: GAAd axotw-
A ” > § , > tr , K.
prev viv, €l cou amodeikvup, avtiAéyovtos Kryo-
U 7 > be / nn 7
immov Avovvoodépw. 7H Kai trdcxois av tovrou
Aoyov; Ildvv, edn. Ti odv; F 8 ds: eiolv
ae A ~ ” 4 / > ~ e
éexdoTw TV ovtwy Adyo.; Ilavy ye. OdKodv ws
” a ~~” e > ” ec ” >
€oTw ExaoTov 7 ws ovK e€oTw; ‘Os €orw. Ei
yap peuvnoa, edn, & Kriowrme, Kai dpti ézedet-
\
fapev pndéva A€yovta ws odK EoTe TO yap pH} OV
~ 7 «a e
ovdels eddvn Aéywv. Ti obv 5) Tobro; 4S és 6
Krijowrmos: irrov te dvTiwdyouev ey Te Kai av;
Ildrepov obv, ) 8 ds, avriAéyousev av Tov! Tod abrob
/ , > /, , ” 4 ‘
mpaypatos Adyov auddrepor A€yovTes, 7 OVTW [EV
rs > >
dv Symov tatra Adyomev; Lvvexwper. “AAA
1 7ov add. Heindorf.
428

EUTHYDEMUS

And yet Dionysodorus here believes I am vexed
with him. I am not vexed at all; I only contradict
the remarks which I think he has improperly aimed
at me. Come now, my generous Dionysodorus, do
not call contradiction abuse : abuse is quite another

On this Dionysodorus said : As though there were
such a thing as contradiction! Is that the way you
argue, Ctesippus ?

Yes, to be sure, he replied, indeed I do; and do
you, Dionysodorus, hold that there is not ?

Well, you at any rate, he said, could not prove
that you had ever heard a single person contradicting
another.

Is that so? he replied: well, let us hear now
whether I can prove a case of it—Ctesippus contra-
dicting Dionysodorus.

Now, will you make that good ?

Certainly, he said.

Well then, proceeded the other, each thing that
is has its own description ?

Certainly.

Then do you mean, as each is, or as it is not ?

As it is.

Yes, he said, for if you recollect, Ctesippus, we
showed just now that no one speaks of a thing as it
is not ; since we saw that no one speaks what is not.

Well, what of that? asked Ctesippus: are you

and I contradicting any the less ?

_ Now tell me, he said, could we contradict if we
both spoke the description of the same thing ?
_ In this case should we not surely speak the same
_ words?

He agreed.

VOL. IV P 429

PLATO

érav pnd€repos, edn, TOV Tob _mpdypatos Adyov
evn. TOTE dvrir€yourev a av ; 4 odrw ye TO Taparray

ovd’ av peuvnevos ein Tod mpdypatos obdéTEpos

7uOv; Kai rodro ovvwpoddye. *AAX apa, drav

eyo pev Tov TOO mpdypatos Adyov Adyw, avd de

dAAou Twos aAdov, TOTE dvriréyowev; 7 ey Aéyw

peev TO mpaypa, ad dé ovde Aéyeus TO Tapamav: oO
€ 11) Acyev T@ Aéyovtt mas av dyrir€yor;

Kat 6 pe Krjjourmos eotynoev eyw 5é Bav-
pacas tov Adyov, lds, ebyy, & Avovvaddwpe,
Aéyeis; 08 yap tor aGAdd Tobrév ye Tov Adyov
TOoMAGy 57). Kal moAAdKis aKnKods Gael Bovpaler
Kal yap. of aude [pwraydpay opddpa Exp@vTo
avT@ Kal ob ere maAadrepou ewol dé a det Bavpaoros
Tes Sone? eivat Kal Tous Te dAous avaTpemwv kal
adros adtév—olpat S€ adrod tiv adAjPeay mapa
aot KddXwora mevoecba. dAdo te pevdF Aéyew
ovK €oTt; TodTo yap Suvatar 6 Adyos: FH yap;
adn’ 7) A€yovr’ adn Bip Aéyew 7 ay) Aéyew ; Luv-
EXWpeEt. [lérepov obv pevdq pev A€yew odK EoTL,
do€alew pévrot €otw; Ovdde do€dlew, ey. Ov8°
apa wevdrs, Hv 5° eyw, Sd€a eoTt TO Tapdazay.
Otx dn. Ov8° pa dpabia 008" dpabeis dvOpe-
Tou 7%) ov Toor av ey dpabia, elmep etn, TO. Wye
decban tTOv mpayydatrwv; Ilavu ye, &dn.

' ‘The argument is that, if we cannot speak what is not, or
falsely, of a thing (this assumption being based on the old
confusion of being with existence), there can be only one
description of a thin in any given relation, and so there is
no room for contradiction. This argument is commonly
ascribed to Antisthenes, the founder of the Cynic sect and
opponent of Plato. It is not clear who exactly are meant
by ** the followers of Protagoras ” or the ‘*‘ others before his
time,”

430

EUTHYDEMUS

But when neither of us speaks the description of
the thing, he asked, then we should contradict ?
Or in this case shall we say that neither of us touched
on the matter at all ?

This also he admitted.

’ Well now, when I for my part speak the description
of the thing, while you give another of another thing,
do we contradict then? Or do I describe the thing,
while you do not describe it at all? How can he who
_ does not describe contradict him who does ?!

At this Ctesippus was silent; but I, wondering
at the argument, said: How do you mean, Dionyso-
dorus? For, to be plain with you, this argument,
though I have heard it from many people on various
occasions, never fails to set me wondering—you
know the followers of Protagoras made great use
of it, as did others even before his time, but to
me it always seems to have a wonderful way of
upsetting not merely other views but itself also—
and I believe I shall learn the truth of it from you
far better than from anyone else. There is no
such thing as speaking false—that is the substance
of your statement, is it not? Either one must
speak and speak the truth, or else not speak ?

He agreed.

Then shall we ae that speaking false “is not,” but
thinking false “

No, it is the same ak thinking, he said.

_ So neither is there any false opinion, I said, at all.

No, he said.

Nor ignorance, nor ignorant men; or must not
ignorance occur, if it ever can, when we put things
falsely ?

Certainly, he said.

431

87

PLATO

Tovro ovK éoTw, Hv 8 eywd. OdK edn. Adyov
evexa, © Avovvaddwpe, AEyers Tov Adyov, wa 81)
aromov A€yns, 7) ws GAnbas SoKxet aor oddels elvan
>
apabys avOpdmwv; >Ada ot, edn, AeyEov. 7H.
kal €oT. todro Kata Tov gov Adyov, e&eAéyEat,
pndevos pevdopevov; OdK éorw, én 6 EdOvSnyos.
Odd’ dpa exéAevev, pny eyes, viv 817) Avovvaddwpos
e€eréyEar; To yap pr) dv 7ds av tis Kedevoar; od
dé Kedcvers; “Or, fv 8 eyd, & EddvSnye, ra
A ~ A A a 2 / 4,

copa Tadra Kal Ta ed €xovta od mavu Te pavOdvw,
> A , > ~ ” A
aAAa maxéws ws evvod. tows pev odv dpopti-

4 / > / > \ / bd
KwWTEpov TL epyjoowa. GAAd ovyylyywoKe, dpa
Sé- ef yap pyre Pevdeo0ar €or pjre evdH So€d-
lew pyre aay elvar, adAo tt 08d’ eEapapravew
goTw, STrav Tis Te mpaTTn; mMpdtTovTa yap ovK
éoTw dpaptavew rovtrov 6 mpdatre: ovx ovTw
héyere; Tlavy y’, é6yn. Todrd eorw dn, qv &
éyw, TO popTiKov epwTnua. et yap p1) dwaprdvouev
pre mpdtrovres pte A€yovtes pre Siavoov-
pevor, dpeis, @ mpdos Atds, ei Tadra ovTws Exet,
/ / Ld ” b) ” ” > \
tivog SiddoKador HKeTE; 7) ODK apt. Edate apEeTHV
KdAdor av mapadotvar avOpimwv 7@ €Oédovre
pavOavew ;

Efr’, én, & Uaxpates, 6 Atovvaddwpos dzo-
432

EUTHYDEMUS

But there is no such thing as this, I said.
No, he said.

Is it merely to save your statement, Dionysodorus,
that you state it so—just to say something startling—
or is it really and truly your view that there is no
such thing as an ignorant man ?

But you, he replied, are to refute me.

Well, does your argument allow of such a thing
as refutation, if there is nobody to speak false ?

There is no such thing, said Euthydemus.

So neither did Dionysodorus just now bid me
refute him ? I asked.

No, for how can one bid something that is not?
Do you bid such a thing ?

Well, Euthydemus, I said, it is because I do not
at all understand these clever devices and palpable
hits: I am only a dull sort of thinker. And so I
may perhaps be going to say something rather
clownish ; but you must forgive me. Here it is: if
there is no such thing as speaking false or think-

ing false or» being stupid, surely there can be no

making a mistake either, when one does some-
thing. For in doing it there is no mistaking the
thing that is done. You will state it so, will you

not?

Certainly, he said.

My clownish question, I went on, is now already
before you. If we make no mistake either in doing
or saying or intending, I ask you what in Heaven’s

_ name, on that assumption, is the subject you two set

up to teach. Or did you not say just now that your
speciality was to put any man who wished in the
way of learning virtue ?

Now really, Socrates, interposed Dionysodorus,

433

PLATO

AaBadv, ottrws ef Kpdvos, wore & 7O mp@rov
el7opev viv avapuyvnoKel, Kal El Te Tépvow elrov,
vov avapvnobjcet, Tots 8 ev TH trapovte Aeyomevors
> 7 bid ~ A 4 ” > 4 ,
obv>x efers 6 te xp; Kal ydp, édnv eyo, yaderoi
clot mdvu, eiKoTws' Tapa cod@v yap A€yovrat:
> ‘ ‘ 4 ~ La / ,
emel Kal TOUTW TH TeAevTAlw TayydAeTOV xpyca-
6 ’ > e rv / ‘ A > ” ov
ofai €otw, @ Héyers. TO yap odK Exw 6 TI
~ La Xr / on A 55 Bal SA
xXp@par ti mote Adyeis, & Avovvaddwpe; 7 SHAov
@ e€ > mw > , > / > ‘ > / ,
ott ws odK exw eEcdéyEou avrov; mel eimé, Ti
got dAdo voet TobtTo TO pha, TO odK Exw 6 TL
xpjowpat tots Adyois; *AAX’ 6 ad Aédyets, Edn,
> ~
touUTw y ov! mavu xaAderov xpjobar ézrei arroKpwat.
IIpiv cé adroxpwwacba, Fv 8 ey, & Avovvaddwpe;
> > , ” . \ , ,
Ovx amoxpiver; é¢n. 7H Kat Sixaov; Ai-
PAs ” A , / e >
kaov pevtor, epn. Kara tiva Adyov; Hv 8
> , nn ~ @ A / @ 4, ~ A /
ey 7 SfAov ott Kara TOvde, STL ov viv mavaodds
a S Ja a
Tis juiv adifar mept Adyous, Kai olcf’ Gre Sei
amoxpivac0at Kal 6Te uy; Kal vov odd’ av OrLody
> ‘ Md , a > cal ~
amoxpivet, ate yryvwoxwv ore od det; Aadeis,
éon, apeAjoas amoxpivacba- addr’, & yale,
meiBov Kal amoxpivov, ézeid7) Kal opodoyeis pe
codov elva. Ileoréov roivuv, fw 8 eyed, Kai
> 4 ¢ ” A ‘4 + > a aD 4
avayKn, ds €ouxe’ od yap apxyets: add’ épdira.
” lal ~
Ildrepov obv yuyiv exovra voet ta voodvta,

} Kal ta axpvya; Ta duynv éxovta. Oicba odv

1 +’ o} Badham: 7@ Mss,

1 4,¢@. voet, ** intend.”

434

.

EUTHYDEMUS

are you such an old dotard as to recollect now what we
said at first, and will you now recollect what I may
have said last year, and yet be at-a loss how to deal
with the arguments urged at the moment ?

Well, you see, I replied, they are so very hard,
and naturally so; for they fall from the lips of wise
men; and this is further shown by the extreme
difficulty of dealing with this last one you put forward.
For what on earth do you mean, Dionysodorus, by
saying I am at a loss how to deal with it? Or is it
clear that you mean I am at a loss how to refute it ?
You must tell me what else your phrase can intend,

“at a loss how to deal with the arguments.”

But it is not so very hard to deal with that phrase }
of yours, he said. Just answer me.

Before you answer me, Dionysodorus? I protested.

You refuse to answer ? he said.

Is it fair ?

Oh yes, it is fair enough, he replied.

On what principle? I asked: or is it plainly on
this one—that you present yourself to us at this
moment as universally skilled in discussion, and thus
can tell when an answer is to be given, and when
not? So now you will not answer a word, because
you discern that you ought not to

What nonsense you talk, he said, instead of
answering as you should. Come, good sir, do as I
bid you and answer, since you confess to my wisdom.

Well then, I must obey, I said, and of necessity,
it seems.; for you are the master here. Now for
your question.

Then tell me, do things that “ intend ” have life
when they intend, or do lifeless things do it too?

Only those that have life.

435

288

PLATO

Tt, eon, pia puxny € EXov 3 Ma Ai’ odK éywrye.

i oov dpre Tpov, 6 Ti pot voot TO Piya; Ti dAdo
YE, qv & eyo, 7 efi} paprov dua tHv BAakeiav; 7
ovK e€ijpaprov, ara Kal Tobro dpbds_ elzov,
etm@v OTL voet TA pryara ; moTepa 7s eCapiap-
Tdvew me OU; él yap pa efi} aprov, odde ov
cEereyters, Katrrep copdos wv, ove’ Exets 6 Tt
xp T@ Adyw: ei 8 cEjpwaprov, odd’ otrws dpOds
héyers, ddoxwy ovKk elvar eLapapravew* Kal

~ > ‘ a“ , ” / > )
TavTa ov mpos a mépvaw Eedeyes A€yw. adda
” ” > 4 s / / \ > uA
eoixev, ednv ey, @ Avovvaddwpe Te Kai EdOvdnpe,
obtos pev 6 Adyos ev TabT@ pevew, Kal Ett WoTeEp
To traAawv KataBadav mintew, Kal woTe TovTO
py) Taoxew, ovd" b77r0 Tijs dpreTeépas mw TéXVS
eevpjobar, kat Tatra ovtwot Oavpaorijs et
eis dxpiBevay Adywv.

Kai o Krijourmos, @avydoud ye réyer’ » ébn,
@ dvdpes Oovpio. eire Xiou ei?” ord bev Kal om
Xalperov dvopaldpuevory ws oddev dyuiv pede Tod
TapaAnpetv..

Kai eye popnbeis, 7) Aowopta yevntat, maw
Karempaivov TOV Krijourmov Kal elmov: *Q Krijo-
ume, Kat viv 52) a& pos KAewiav éAeyov, Kal
mpos ae Tavrd, TAvTO. Aéy, OTL ov yeyvaoners
Tov €évav TIHVv cogiay, Ort Oavpacia €otiv: GAN’
otk eOéderov piv emideiEacbar omovdalovre,
> \ \ /, a \ > 4
aAAa tov IIpwréa pipetoBov tov Aiydatiov codt-

1 Cf. above, 271 c.

2 Cf. Homer, Od. iv. 385 foll. Proteus was an ancient
seer of the sea who, if one could catch him as he slept on
the shore and hold him fast while he transformed himself

into a variety of creatures, would tell one the intentions of |
the gods, the fate of absent friends, etc.

436

EUTHYDEMUS

Now do you know any phrase that has life ?

Upon my soul, I do not.

Why then did you ask just now what my phrase
intended ?

Of course I made a great mistake, I said; I am
such a dullard. Or perhaps it was not a Mistake,
and I was right in saying what I did, that phrases
intend. Do you say I was mistaken or not? If I
was not, then you will not refute me, with all your
skill, and you are at a loss how to deal with the argu-

ment ; while if I was mistaken, you are in the wrong
‘here. too, for you assert that there is no such thing
as making a mistake; and what I say is not aimed
at what you said last year. But it seems, I went on,
Dionysodorus and Euthydemus, that our argument
remains just where it was, and still suffers from the
old trouble of knocking others down and then falling
itself, and even your art has not yet discovered a
way of avoiding this failure—in spite, too, of the
wonderful show it makes of accurate reasoning.

Here Ctesippus exclaimed: Yes, your way of
discussion is marvellous, you men of Thurii or Chios?
or wherever or however it is you are pleased to get
your names ; for you have no scruple about babbling
like fools. 2

At this I was afraid we might hear some abuse,
so I soothed Ctesippus down once more, saying :
Ctesippus, I repeat to you what I said to Cleinias
just now, that you do not perceive the wonderful
nature of our visitors’ skill. Only they are unwilling
to give us a display of it in real earnest, but treat
us to jugglers’ tricks in the style of Proteus? the

VOL. IV P2 437

PLATO

C orn yontevovte Huds. tyuets odv Tov Mevedaov

239

/ 4 A > 4 6 ~ > 5) ~ td
pipwpeba, Kal put) adiapeba totv avdpoiv, ews
nn c a > ~ 73> e > ‘ /

dv npiv exdavarov, ep @& atta omovddlerov:
4 b] a 7 ”~ > A
oluar yap Tt adroiv madyKxadov davetobar, émerdav
dpkwvrar omovddlew: adda Sedpefa Kal mapa-
pvbdpeba Kat mpocevywpcba adroiy exdavivar.
> 4 = ~ ‘ > A 7 if 7
eyw obdv pou S0x@ Kai adtos madw bdynyjoacba,
olw mpocetyoua. atta davivai pow dbev yap
TO mpdTepov améAumrov, TO é€7s TOUTOLS TrELPacOLLaL,
oe a , A 27 > ,
émws av Svvapya, SueAOeiv, éedv mws exKaréd-
cwya Kai éeAenoavTé pe Kal olKreipavte ovv-
TeTapevov Kal omovddlovTa Kal abTad oTovddonToV.
>
Xd 5é, & KrAewia, ednv, avduvnoov pe, 7d0ev
) de > , e A Ss > on > ,
ror ameXimomev. ws pev ovv ey@pua, evOévde
td , e /, ~
mobev. diAdocodyréov wuodoyjoapmev TeAeuvT@vTES*
jh yap; Nat,# 86s. ‘H 8€ ye didocodia xrijats
> / > 4 ” / A ,
emuoTnuns odx ovTws; ednv. Nai, edn. Tiva
mot obv av KTnodpevor emoTHnv dpb@s KrT7-
eaiicba; dp ov todro pev amdodv, Aris Huds
> / I 4 > ” iy. > 5 ” ¢ ~
ovicer; dvu y, €oy. p’ ovv av Tt Huds
ovyijcevev, ef emioTaipefa yuyvwoKew Tepwuovtes,
Omov THS ys xpvoiov mAeioTrov KaTopwpuKTar;
"lows, &¢n. “AAAa 7O mpdtepov, fv 8 eyed,
~ , > , o 3 A , 399 >
totra ye e&nAdyEapev, Ste oddev mA€ov, odd’ «i
dvev mpaypatwv Kal tod opirrew Thy yhv TO
nav wiv xpvolov yevoito: wore odd «i Tas
métpas xpvods emortaipela moeiv, ovdevds av

1 Cf. Hom. Od. iv. 456. -2 Cf, 282 v.
438

EUTHYDEMUS

Egyptian adept. So let us take our cue from
Menelaus,! and not leave hold of these gentlemen
till they give us a sight of their own serious business.
I believe something very fine will be found in them
as soon as they begin to be serious. Come, let us
beg and exhort and beseech them to let their light
shine. For my part, then, I am minded to take the
lead once more in showing what sort of persons I
pray may be revealed in them: starting from where
I left off before, I shall try, as best I can, to describe
what follows on from that, to see if I can rouse them
to action and make them, in merciful commiseration
of my earnest endeavour, be earnest themselves.

Will you, Cleinias, I asked, please remind me of the
point at which we left off? Now, as far as I can tell,
it was something like this: we ended by agreeing
that one ought to pursue wisdom, did we not ??

Yes, he said.

And this pursuit—called philosophy—is an acquir-
ing of knowledge. Is it not so? I asked.

Yes, he said.

Then what knowledge should we acquire if we

acquired it rightly ? Is it not absolutely clear that
_ it must be that knowledge which will profit us ?

Certainly, he said.
Now will it profit us at all, if we know how to tell,

as we go about, where the earth has most gold buried
init?

Perhaps, he said.
But yet, I went on, we refuted that former pro-

| position, agreeing that even if without any trouble
_ or digging the earth we got all the gold in the world,
_ we should gain nothing, so that not if we knew how
_ to turn the rocks into gold would our knowledge

439

PLATO

La od e > , ” > A A A a
afia % émornun etn: et yap pH Kal xphoba
> ~
emioTnooueba 7TH xpvaiw, ovdev OdeAos ado
> / ” “” > /, ” > 7 , >
edavn ovr 7 od} peuvnoa; edynveyw. IIdrv y’,
egy, pepvnua. Ovddd ye, ws Eouxe, THS aAAns
> , bd , > , C4
emioTHns odedAos yiyverar ovdév, ovTE xpHLa-
a EA > ~ ” ” > ~
TioTiKHS ovTe latpiKns ovTe aAAns ovddeutas,
o = yar) * Se esr een
Hts movety tL emiotatar, yphoOar Sé€ pH @ ay
moon? ody ovtTws; Lvvedyn. Ovdde ye et tis
€oTw emotTiun, wote abavdrovs moveiv, avev
Tob eniotacba TH abavaci joa, ovdé€ TavT
a 7a “a XP ’ ns
€oxev OdeAos ovdev eivar, Ef Tots mpdoabev aodo-
, / cal / ca
ynuevois Ttekpaipeca Sei. Lvveddwer uiv
mavta tadra. .Towatrns twos dpa piv ém-
oTnpns Set, @ Kade rai, hv 8 eyed, ev h cupreé-
MTWKEV Gua TO TE ToLEiv Kal TO éexioTacba ypjaba
TovTw, & av mown. Daiverar, epn. [loAdod
” - e »” ¢ ~ 4 - >
dpa Set, ws €ouxev, Huds Avpotrorods Seiv eivar
‘ tA ‘ > / > , >
Kal Tovavtns Twos eémoTHuns emnBddovs. ev-
tad0a yap 51) xwpis ev 7) movodca téxvn, xwpis

dé 7 xpwuevn, Sinpyrac 5€ tod avtod mépt- 7

yap AvpotouKy Kal 1 KiOapiotiKy, moAd dia-
dépetrov adAjAow- ody ovtws; Lvvedyn. Odde
penv addAorouKts ye SiHrov Gre SeducBa: Kal yap

avrn €éTépa toiattn. Louveddoxer. *AAAA mpds —

Oey z b SW ii7i. Ev ice X \ , ‘0
QV EYW, €L TV AOVOTIOLLKNV TEXVIVY MAUOLLEDV,

440

oP ae
Atte itn A

eye eee oO eae

EUTHYDEMUS

be of any worth. For unless we know how to use the
gold, we found no advantage in it. Do you not
remember ? I asked.

Certainly I do, he said.

Nor, it seems, do we get any advantage from all
other knowledge, whether of money-making or
medicine or any other that knows how to make things,
without knowing how to use the thing made. Is
it not so?

He agreed.

Nor again, if there is a knowledge enabling one
to make men immortal, does this, if we lack the
knowledge how to use immortality, seem to bring
any advantage either, if we are to infer anything
from our previous admissions.

On all these points we agreed.

Then the sort of knowledge we require, fair
youth, I said, is that in which there happens to be a
union of making and knowing how to use the thing
made.

Apparently, he said.

So we ought, it seems, to aim at something far
other than being lyre-makers or possessing that
kind of knowledge. For in this case the art that
makes and the art that uses are quite distinct,
dealing in separation with the same thing; since
there is a wide difference between the art of
making lyres and that of harp-playing. Is it
not so?

He agreed.

Nor again, obviously, do we require an art of flute-
making ; for this is another of the same kind.

He assented.

Now in good earnest, I asked, if we were to learn

441

4

I

-

290

PLATO

>. (AD: | 4 a ” ld e -~ > ,
dpa é€orw avrn, fv cder KexTnuevous Huds eddat-
> Od Z ” > 7, e /,
provas eivat; vx olwa, edn, eyw, 6 KAewias
e / / , 3) 4% tA -~
brodaBav. Tire texunpiw, hv 8° eyw, xpq;
e ~ ” A , a a 207
Op&, €¢n, twas Aoyomowo’s, ot Tots idio.s
~ a> # ~
Adyos, ofs adrot mowtaw, odK errictavTar xpHoar,
o e ‘ a 7 > A . ae ~
woamrep ot Avpotrowoi tats Avpats, aAAa Kai evradba
dAAot Svvatoi xpjaba ofs exeivor eipydoavro, of
a , a =
Aoyoroetv adroit advvator: SHAov odv Ort Kal
¢ ~ ~ , ~
mept Adyous xwpis 7 TOO Toveivy TéxVN Kal 7 TOO
xpjoba.
e , - ” > , /, ,
Ixavov pot Soxeis, ednv ey, TeKunpov A€yew,
6tt ody avTn eoTiv 7 TOV AoyoToLdy Téxvn, Hv av
,
KTnOdpLEVves Tis eddaimwY etn. KalTor eyd wun
> -~p/ , A > /, a \
évtad0da mov davycecfar tHv emoTHuny, jv 87)
~ ‘ / a .
mada Cntobuev. Kal yap pou ot Te avdpes avdroi
/ a ,
ot Aoyorrotol, Otay ovyyevajrar adtois, b7épaodor,
~ 4 ¢ ~
® KrAewia, doxotow elvar, kat adrn 7 Téxvn adrav
/ ‘ € / ‘ ta 204
Oearecia tis Kai widbyAj. Kal pevTor ovdev
-~ ~ > ~
Oavpactov: €oTt yap THs Tav éemwddv Téxvns
UopLov opiKp® Te exelvns vmodcecTEépa. 7 pev
yap TOv éemwddv exewv te Kai padayyiwy Kai
~ ,
oKopric kal Tv ddAAwv Onpiwy Te Kai voowr
KnAnois eat, 7) Sé Suxaora@y Te Kal exxAnovagray
Kat TOV aAAwv oxhww KipAnats Te Kal mrapapviia
Tuyxdver ovoa: 7 Got, Edynv eyw, dAdAws Tws Soxei;
” >\)? OQ ree ” e ‘ ;
OvK, adr otrw pou daiverar, Eby, ws ad Aé€yeis.
- > ” > 7 / e. ” : U
Ilot odv, édnv éye', tpatoipe” av Ett; mi mroiav
~ > >
réxvnv; “Eyw pev od edropd, edn. “AM’,
Ping QO? > / > ‘ tf ec ta Ti é »” ¢
Wed eyw, eue oluar edpnKévar. iva; dy 6
442

ee

,

EUTHYDEMUS

the art of speech-making, can that be the art we
should acquire if we would be happy ?

I for one think not, said Cleinias, interposing.

On what proof do you rely ? I asked.

I see, he said, certain speech-writers who do not
know how to use the special arguments composed
by themselves, just as lyre-makers in regard to their
lyres : in the former case also there are other persons
able to use what the makers produced, while being
themselves unable to make the written speech.
Hence it is clear that in speech likewise there are two
distinct arts, one of making and one of using.

I think you give sufficient proof, I said, that this
art of the speech-writers cannot be that whose acqui-
sition would make one happy. And yet I fancied
that somewhere about this point would appear
the knowledge which we have been seeking all
this while. For not only do these speech-writers
themselves, when I am in their company, impress
me as prodigiously clever, Cleinias,.but their art
itself seems so exalted as to be almost inspired.
However, this is not surprising ; for it is a part of
the sorcerer’s art, and only slightly inferior to that.
The sorcerer’s art is the charming of snakes and
tarantulas and scorpions and other beasts and
diseases, while the other is just the charming and
soothing of juries, assemblies, crowds, and so forth.
Or does it strike you differently ? I asked.

No, it appears to me, he replied, to be as you say.

Which way then, said I, shall we turn now?
What kind of art shall we try ?

For my part, he said, I have no suggestion.

Why, I think I have found it myself, I said.

What is it ? said Cleinias.

443

PLATO

B KaAewias. ‘H ozparnyixy pow Soxet, ednv eyd
Téxvn TravTos pGAAov elvar, Hv av tis KTNOdMEVOS
evoainwy ein. OvdKx Euovye Soxet. lds; Fe
8 eyed. Onpevtixy tis nde ye, eott Téexvn avOpa-
mwv. Ti 87 obv ; edyy eyo. Ovdenia, edn,
Tis Onpevtixns adris emi mAgov eoriv 7 dgov
Onpedoar Kai yxeipwoac8a éemedav Se yeipw-
cwvta. Todro, 6 av Onpedwvtar, od Svvavrat
touTw xpha8a, adr of pev Kuvnyérar Kal ot
dAueis Tots oxomrowis mapadidcacw, ot 8 ad
yewpeTpat Kal of aoTpovouot Kai ot AoyrotiKoi—
Onpevtuxol yap eiou Kal obrot: od yap mroLodat
Ta Siaypdppara Exaorou tovtwy, adda 7. evra
dvevptoxovow—dre obv xpijo8a adtois odK ém-
oTdevot, adAa Onpedoas pdvov, mrapadiddacr Sijmrov
Tots Svahexrixots karaxphobat atrta@y tots <dpy)-
pLacw, doo. ye a’T@v wn TavTamacw avonroi €iow.

Kiev, jv 8 eyd, & KddAdote Kai coddrarte
KAewia: todro ovtTws éxe;

Ildvu prev obv- Kal of ye otpatnyol, fn, ovTw
TOV avrov TpoTov, emedav % TOAW Twa Onpedowv-
Tat 7 otparomedov, mrapadideaat Tots moAutiKots
_ dvdpaow: avTol yap ouK emioravTat xpijobae
TovTos, & e€Onpevoav’ woTep, olwat, of opTtuyo-
Ojpae tots optvyorpogots mapadibdaow. et ow,
7 5 os, Sedpcba exeivs THs TEXVNS, "rs @ ay
KTHonTaL } Towjoaca 7 Onpevoapevn avr? al
EMLOTHGETAL xpjoa, Kai % TowadTn moLjoet
Has paxapious, aAAnv 84 twa, edn, Cyrynréov
avTl THS OTpaTHYyUKAS.

1 je. geometers etc. are not to be regarded as mere
makers of diagrams, these being only the necessary and

44.4

. oT ee

—

ro ae

ee ene

EUTHYDEMUS

Generalship, I replied, strikes me as the art whose
acquisition above all others would make one happy.

I do not think so.

Why not? I asked.

In a sense, this is an art of hunting men.

What then ? I said.

No part of actual hunting, he replied, covers more
than the province of chasing -and overcoming ; and
when they have overcome the creature they are
chasing, they are unable to use it : the huntsmen or
the fishermen hand it over to the caterers, and so it
is too with the geometers, astronomers, and cal-
culators—for these also are hunters in their way,
since they are not in each case diagram-makers, but
discover the realities of things —and so, not knowing
how to use their prey, but only how to hunt, I take
it they hand over their discoveries to the dialecticians
to use properly, those of them, at least, who are not
utter blockheads.

Very good, I said, most handsome and ingenious
Cleinias ; and is this really so?

To be sure it is ; and so, in the same way, with the
generals. When they have hunted either a city or
an army, they hand it over to the politicians—since
they themselves do not know how to use what they
have hunted—just as quail-hunters, I suppose, hand
over their birds to the quail-keepers. If, therefore,
he went on, we are looking for that art which itself
shall know how to use what it has acquired either in
making or chasing, and if this is the sort that will
make us blest, we must reject generalship, he said,
and seek out some other.

common machinery for their real business, the discovery of
mathematical and other abstract truths.

445

E

291

PLATO

KPI. Ti Aé€yets ot, & Ldkpares, exetvo Tod
peipdxiov Toad?’ edbéyéato;

za. Odx« oter, & Kpitwr;

KPI. Ma Ae’ od wevroL. olwat yap avrov
eyo, el Tair’ elrev, ot” EvOvdipov ovte aAAov
ovdevos €7 avOpwmov Seiabas eis madeiav.

za. "A dpa, & apos Atds, wr 6 Kryjowmmos

e a > > / > A A > /
hv 6 Tabr” cimwy, eyd Sé od pweuvnua;
KPI. Ilotos Kriyjourmos;
> ” ,
Ada piv to ye €& olda, drt ovre EvOu-
* /, e > 4 ~ > >
SypLos ovre Atovvaddwpos hv 6 cima Tadra. and .
@ _ Saypdvee Kpirwr, Bn Tis TOV KperTTovev Tapa
atta ép0éyéato; ti yap jKovod ye Tadra, «bd
olda.
~ ,
KPI. Nati ua Ata, &d Lwkpares* TOV Kpevrrovwv
/ > A a \ , aAAd A
prevrou Tis €ot SoKet, Kai moAU ye. GQ peTA
totro rt twa elnrnoate Téxvynv; Kal nupeTe
exelvnv 7) odx NUpETE, As Evexa Elnretre;
/ > / Md > > os
za. dev, & paxdpre, edpouev; aA Hyev
a A
mdvu yeAoio, womep Ta TaLdia Ta TOUS KopvdouS
Sucdkovta del @opeda éxdorny TOY emoTnUav
A A
av rika AjipeoBar, at 8° dei drefepuyov. TO [Lev
obv moAXa Ti av got Adyoune 5 3 emi Sé 8) Thy Bacv-
Aueny eABovres TéXVnY Kat Svackorovpevor adryy,
el arn ein 4 THY eVdaysoviay mapéxovod TE
Kal dmepyalopevn, evratba aorep eis AaB pwBov
€uTrEcovTes, oldpevor 799 ent TéAew elvat, mept-
Kkapapavres mdAw a worrep ev exh THS Cnrijcews a av-
eddvnpev évTes Kat Tod icov Seoprevor, GaourTrep
OTe TO Tp@Tov elnrobuer.
~ ~ a = ,
KPI. I1@s 87) roéro tuiv ovveByn, ® LaKpares;

446

ee ee ee ee

|

‘

EUTHYDEMUS

crt. What is this, Socrates? Such a pronounce-
ment from that stripling !

soc. You do not believe it is his, Crito ?

cri. I should rather think not. For I am sure,
if he spoke thus, he has no need of education from
Euthydemus or anyone else.

soc. But then, Heaven help me! I wonder if it
was Ctesippus who said it, and my memory fails
me.
cri. Very like Ctesippus !

soc. Well, of this at any rate I am certain, that
it was neither Euthydemus nor Dionysodorus who
said it. Tell me, mysterious Crito, was it some
superior power that was there to speak it? For that
speech I heard, I am sure.

crt. Yes, I promise you, Socrates: I fancy it was
indeed some superior power—very much so. But
after that, did you go on looking for a suitable art?
Did you find the one which you had as the object
of your search, or not ?

soc. Find it, my good fellow! No, we were in
a most ridiculous state ; like children who run after
crested larks, we kept on believing each moment we
were just going to catch this or that one of the
knowledges, while they as often slipped from our
grasp. What need to tell you the story at length?
When we reached the kingly art, and were examining
it to see if we had here what provides and produces
happiness, at this point we were involved in a
labyrinth : when we supposed we had arrived at the
end, we twisted about again and found ourselves
practically at the beginning of our search, and just
as sorely in want as when we first started on it.

cri. How did this happen to you, Socrates ?

447

PLATO

"Eyes ppdaw. bog_ yap. 87) iv 7 moAc-
Bec Kal 7 Bacwd Kn) TEXVN 7) adT?) elvas.
KPI. Té odv 875
za. Tavryn TH EXPN q TE orparnyuKy kat ai
aAAat mapadidovat apxew Tov Epywv, dv abvrai
Snpwoupyot eiow, as povy emuoTapevy) xpjoba.
caddis obv chbici Hiv avrn elvar, 7 iy elnrodpev,
D kat n airia Tob opbas mpatrew ev TH moet, Kat
drexvOs Kata TO Aioxvdou iapBetov povn ev
Th Tpvuvy abjjobae THs Tohews, mavTa, xuBep-
v@oa Kal mavTwY dpxovea mavrTa xerjoya moet.
KPI. Ovdxodv Kadds tyiv éddxer, & UoKpares;
xa. Xd Kpweis, & Kpitwv, éav BovAn axovew
Kal Ta peTa TadTa ovpBavTa ypiv. avlis yap
67 maAw éoxoTotpev dé ws: Depe, mavTwv
apxovoa 7 Baoilixr téxvn TL Hiv amepyalera
E €pyov, 7 ovdev; Ilavrws Siov, tyets epapev
mpos adAjAovs. Od Kai od ay tatra gains, &
Kpitwv ;
KPI. “Eywye.
22. Ti odv av gains adris Epyov elvar; womep
el o€ €yw epwranv, TavTwy apxovoa 7 latpiKy, Dv
dpxet, TL Epyov mapéxeTar; ov THY vylevay pains;
KPI. "Eywye.
zo. Et b€; 7 bperépa TEXVY n yewpyia, mavrov
292 dpxovea, av OPXELs Tl epyov dmepyalerac; od
THY tpopiy av dains THY €k THS ys mapéexew
piv ;
KPI. “Hywye.

1 Cf. Aesch. Septem, 2 ‘*Whoso at helm of the state
keeps watch upon affairs, guiding the tiller without resting
his eyelids in sleep.”

4438

SoReal:

Oe eee

_ = ore oo”

EUTHYDEMUS

soc. I will tell you. We took the view that the
statesman’s and the monarch’s arts were one and the’
same.

cri. Well, what then?

soc. To this art, we thought, generalship and the
other arts handed over the management of the
productions of their own trades, as this one alone
knew how to use them. So it seemed clear to us
that this was the one we were seeking, and was the
cause of right conduct in the state, and precisely
as Aeschylus’ line} expresses it, is seated alone at
the helm of the city, steering the whole, command-
ing the whole, and making the whole useful.

crt. And surely your notion was a good one,
Socrates ?

soc. You shall judge of that, Crito, if you care
to hear what befell us thereafter. For later
on we reconsidered it somewhat in this manner :
Look now, does the monarch’s art, that rules over
all, produce any effect or not? Certainly it does,
of course, we said to one another. Would you not
say so too, Crito?

cri. I would.

soc. Then what would you say is its effect?
For instance, if I were to ask you whether medicine,
in ruling over all that comes under its rule, has
any effect to show; would you not say: Yes,
health ?

crt. I would.

soc. And what about your art of agriculture?
In ruling over all that comes under its rule, what
effect does it produce ? Would you not say that it
supplies us with food from the earth ?

cri. I would.

449

PLATO

xo. Ti 5€; 4 Baowte mdévrwv dpxovoa, dv
dpxet, Ti dmepydlera; tows od mdvu y’ ebrropeis.
KPI. Ma tov Ala, & Leixpartes.
za. Ovddé yap jpeis, d Kpirwy: adda toodvd_
yé oloba, Stu eizep oriv abry Hy tpets Cntodper,
OpeApov adriy Set efvac.
KPI. Ildvv ye.
22. Ovxotv dyabdv yé te Set tiv adripy
mapadidovat ;
KPI. “Avdyxn, @ LedKpares.
xa. “Ayabov S€ yé mov cipodoyicapev GdAjAows
LJ 4 ‘ , sO 4 A nn 9 7
eyw Te kat KAewias ovdev eivar addo 7) emioriunv
Twa.
KPI. Nai, ovrws €Aeyes.
xo. Odxodv ra-pev ddda epya, & dain ay tis
toditikhs €lvar—zoAAa S€é mov raér’ av ein, olov
mAovaiovs tods moAiras mapéxew Kal édAevbépous
Kal aoTac.doTous—rdvTa Tadra ovTe Kaka ovTeE
> a ? 4 yw A A a 4,2 ,
ayaba édavn, der Sé cofods moreiv Kal emoripns
/ mw wv 7 e > ~ /
peradiovar, elzep euedrev atry elvar 7) ddedodod
TE Kal evdaijovas TroLotca.
KPI. “Eort tadra: tore yobv ottws tiv duo
Aoy7On, s ad tods Adyous amyyewdas.
za. *Ap’ otv 7 BaowWsuKi codods more? Tovds
avOpeirrovs Kai ayabous ;
KPI. Ti yap cwdver, & LadK«pares;
> a | 4 ‘ / > 4 ‘
za. *AX dpa mdvras Kat mavra ayabods; Kal
TGcav emoTiunv, OKUTOTOMUKIVY TE Kal TEKTO-
A \ A ” ¢ / A e ~ 4
viKnv Kal Tas aAdas amdoas, avrn % mapadidotcd
€oTw;
KPI. Ovdx oiuar éywye, & LwKpares.
> A , 12 / , ,
za. “AMa riva 87) emoripnv; # ti xpnoducba,
450

EUTHYDEMUS

soc. And what of the monarch’s art? In ruling
over all that comes under its rule, what does it
produce? Perhaps you are not quite ready with
the answer.

cri. I am not indeed, Socrates.

soc. Nor were we, Crito; yet so much you know,
that if this is really the one we are seeking, it must
be beneficial.

crt. Certainly.

soc. Then surely it must purvey something good ?

crt. Necessarily, Socrates.

soc. And you know we agreed with each other,
Cleinias and I, that nothing can be good but some
sort of knowledge.

cri. Yes, so you told me.

soc. And it was found that all effects in general
that you may ascribe to statesmanship—and a great
many of them there must be, presumably, if the
citizens are to be made wealthy and free and immune
from faction—all these things were neither bad nor
good, while this art must make us wise and impart
knowledge, if it really was to be the one which
benefited us and made us happy.

cri. True: so at al] events you agreed then, by
your account of the discussion.

soc. Then do you think that kingship makes men
wise and good ?

crt. Why not, Socrates ?

soc. But does it make all men good, and in all
things? And is this the art that confers every sort
poe Serpe nee and carpentry and so
orth ?

cri. No, I think not, Socrates.

soc. Well, what knowledge does it give? What

451

293

PLATO

Tav pev yap epyev oddevos Set adriv Sypwoupyov
elvar TOV pyre KaK@v pyre ayabav, emornpny
de Tmapadi ova pndeptav aAAnv i abriy éavriy.
Aéywpev 51 obv, Tis ToTE EoTW avTH, H Ti xpynaO-
pela; BovrAa Padpev, d Kpitwyv, 7 aAdAovs ayalods
TOLNTOMED ;
‘KPI. Idve ye.

zo. OF ri eoovTa Hystv dyabot Kal Ti Xerjoysor
vA
} ere A€ywpev, dtt GdAovs Troujaovow, ot d€ aAAor
> a ” Sd / > , > > ~
exeivot GAXous; 6 Tt dé mote ayaboi ciow, obdap00
Hiv daivovta, emednmep Ta Epya Ta Acyoweva
evar THS moduTiKAs ATYdoapev, GAN . arexvas
A / ¢ \ / , Wo &
TO Aeyouevov 6 Aros Kopwbos yiyverar, Kai ozmep
éXeyov, ToD icov hiv evdet 7 Ete mA€ovos pds
TO eidévar, Tis mor eoTW 1 emoTHun eKelvn, 7)
Has evdaipovas TOWEL ;

KPI. Ny Tov Aia, & Xead«pares, eis wnoDefe ye
dmopiav, ws €ouxev, adixeoe.

xo. "Eywye otv Kal adrés, & Kpitwy, ered)
ev tavTn Th amopia evemenTwKy, Tacav dn
duwvyv Andiew, Seduevos toiv E€vow womep Atoo-
Kovpwv emukadovpevos aHoar Huds, cue Te Kal
TO pelpaKiov, ek THs TpiKupias Tod Adyov, Kal
mTavtTl Tpomw omovddoat, Kal omovddcartTas ért-
SeiEar, Tis mor eoTw 1 emoTHuN, hs TUXOVTES
n ~ ‘ De / /
av KaAds Tov emiAourrov Biov du€ADownev.

/ = > / / ec A > cal

KPI. Ti otv; 7OéAncé te tyiv éemidciéa

Evdvdnpos ;

1 Cf. Pindar, Nem. vii. fin. Megara, a colony of Corinth,
revolted, and when the Corinthians appealed to the sentiment
attaching to Corinthus, the mythical founder of Megara,

452

ae ree

EUTHYDEMUS

use can we make of it? It is not to be a producer
of any of the effects which are neither bad nor good,
while it is to confer no other knowledge but itself.
Shall we try and say what it is, and what use we shall
make of it? Do you mind if we describe it, Crito, as
that whereby we shall make other men good ?

cri. I quite agree.

soc. And in what respect are we going to have these
men good, and in what useful? Or shall we venture
to say they are to make others so, and these again
others? In what respect they can possibly be good
is nowhere evident to us, since we have discredited
all the business commonly called politics, and it is
merely a case of the proverbial “Corinthus Divine”?;
and, as I was saying, we are equally or even worse at
fault as to what that knowledge can be which is to
make us happy. ;

cri. Upon my word, Socrates, you got yourselves
there, it seems, into a pretty fix.

soc. So then I myself, Crito, finding I had fallen
into this perplexity, began to exclaim at the top of
my voice, beseeching the two strangers as though
I were calling upon the Heavenly Twins to save
us, the lad and myself, from the mighty wave? of the
argument, and to give us the best of their efforts,
and this done, to make plain to us what that know-
ledge can be of which we must get hold if we
are to spend the remainder of our lives in a proper
wa

cri. Well, did Euthydemus consent to propound
anything for you?

the Megarians drove them off. taunting them with using a
** vain repetition.”
* Lit. “the big wave that comes in every three.”
453

PLATO

A ” a
xa. IIds yap ov; Kal nptaro ye, & éraipe,
navy peyaArodpovws Tod Adyou wde-
Ildrepov 87 oe, dn, & Ldxpares, ravrnv tHhv
a bal
emloTHUNv, wept tv mdAa azopetre, Siddéw, 7
>
emdelEw éxovta; *Q paxdpre, Fv 8 "eye, eore Se
€mt aot tobro; Ildvu pev odv, edn. "Emideréov
roivuy pe vi) A’, ednv eyw, exovta: odd yap
pdov 7 pavOdvew tyAuKovde avdpa. Dépe 47)
> , Mw ” @ St iF. /
pro. amoxpwat, edn: eotTw 6 Tt emiotaca; Ilavu
ye, qv 8 eyd, Kal moAAd, opixpa ye. ‘Apxei,
y - ~ ~
é¢n. dp’ obv Soxets oldv ré Tt TMV GvTwY TOTO,
a , ” nee “ \ 2 \ \
6 tuyydver dv, adro Tobdro pH elvar; “Ada pa
A’? otk éywye. Odxodv at, édns, émioracat
” b ~ > , mw 2, £
tt; “Eywye. Odxoiv emornuwyr el, eimep eni-
otacat; Ildvu ye, tovrov ye avrod. Ovddev
8 fd > > . > Ld ” / See
vadéeper> GAN’ ofk avayKn oe Exel TaVTA EmLOTA-
cba émoripova ye ovra; Ma Av’, édyy eyo:
émet moda aGAd’ ovk emiorapar. Ovdxoty et Tt
A ES Y > > / Z "EB /
pn emlotacat, ovK emoriuwyv et. Keivou YE,
& dire, hv & eyd. “Hrrov obv 1, &dy, ovK
> / La A > /, ” >
emoTipwvr ef; dpe dS€ emorhuwv edyoba etvac-

A A / n” 5 See | “ ‘
Kal ovrw Tuyxdveis wv avros odros, ds el, Kat

454 .

Cl re Ss
¢

EUTHYDEMUS

soc. Why, certainly ; and he began his discourse,
my good friend, in this very lofty-minded fashion :

Would you rather, Socrates, that I instructed you
as to this knowledge which has baffled you all this
while, or propound that you have it ?

O gifted sir, I exclaimed, and have you the power
to do this ?

Certainly I have, he replied.

Then for Heaven’s sake, I cried, propound that I
have it! This will be much easier than learning
for a man of my age.

Come then, answer me this, he said: Do you
know anything ?

Yes, indeed, I replied, and many things, though
trifles.

That is enough, he said; now do you think it
possible that anything that is should not be just that
which it actually is ?

On my soul, not I.

Now you, he said, know something ¢

I do.

Then you are knowing, if you really know ?

Certainly, in just that something.

That makes no difference; you are not under
a necessity of knowing everything, if you are
knowing ?

No, to be sure, I replied ; for there are many other
things which I do not know.

Then if you do not know something, you are not
knowing ?

Not in that thing, my dear sir. I replied.

Are you therefore any the less unknowing? Just
now you said you were knowing ; so here you are,
actually the very man that you are, and again,

455

294

PLATO

* , : >
ad madw odk el, kata tadTa dua. Elev, jw 8
’ , tA 7 A
eyo, Edv0vdnue- 7o yap Aeyopevov, Kara 87)

/ ~
mavTa A€yeiss Hs odv emioTapat exelvnv THY
> , a > 7 e A ~ > 4 ,
emtaTnunv, nv elntrodmev; ws 817 Toro advvarov
€oTt TO avTo elvai Te Kal Ey elmep év eriorapat,
o /
amavTa emiorapat: ov yap av elnv émoTHLwv

‘ >
TE KQt AVETLOTHUWY dua‘ éemel € TaVvTA emioTapat,

> , a
Kkakewnv 8) THY émorhunv exw? apa ovTws

, ~
Aéyeis, Kat todTd eott TO aoddv;

b] A > YA
Adros cavrov ye 81 eLedéyyets, bn, & LadKpares.
, ,

Ti 8€, Fv & éyd, & Eddvdnue, od od wézovbas
todro TO avto mdfos; eyd ydp Tor peta Gov
e ~ col
oTwobyv av mdoxwv Kai pera Acvovyaoddpov todde,

DY ln galee* , > , ge
pidrns xehadis, odk av wavy ayavaKxtoiny. €imé jot,

‘ FA \ \ > 7 ~ »” A de
oda ovxl Ta pev éexiotacbov tav dvTwv, Ta Se
ovk eriotacbov; “Hxuord ye, ébn, & Uwd«pares,

~ > 7
6 Atovvaddwpos. lds Aéyetov; ednv eye
> >; > @
GAN’ oddev dpa éemiotacbov; Kai pdda, 7 5° os.

/ > ‘
Ildvr’ dpa, édnv eyw, éenictacbov, erewdimep Kat
¢ a 23> @ \ , ” A
oriobv; Ilavr’, épn- Kat ot ye mpos, eimep Kal

~ w
év émiotacat, mavTa éemicraca. *Q Zeb, Ednv

> / e ‘4 / ‘ > 4 7
eyo, ws Bavpaordv Aéyers Kal ayabov péya
mepavOa. pdv Kal of aAdo. mavtes avOpwror

4 > ’ , Bal b] , b] \ , mu”
mavr émiotavra, ovdev; Od yap Symov, edn,

A
Ta pev emiotavra, Ta 8 ovK emioravTat, Kal
ciciv dua émoripoves te Kal dvemioTipoves.
456

en |

ae

. PO A eee

oe

+) ar

EUTHYDEMUS

not that man, in regard to the same matter and at
the same time!

Admitted, Euthydemus, I said: as the saying
goes, “ well said whate’er you say.” How therefore
do I know that knowledge which we were seeking ?
Since forsooth it is impossible for the same thing
to be so and not be so; by knowing one thing I
know all ;—for I could not be at once both knowing
and unknowing ;—and as I know everything I have
that knowledge to boot: is that your line of argu-
ment? Is this your wisdom ?

Yes, you see, Socrates, he said, your own words
refute you.

Well, but, Euthydemus, I continued, are you
not in the same plight? I assure you, so long as I
had you and this dear fellow Dionysodorus to share
my lot, however hard, I should have nothing to com-
plain of. Tell me, you both know some existent
things, of course, and others you do not ?

By no means, Socrates, said Dionysodorus.

How do you mean? I asked: do you then not
know anything ?

Oh yes, we do, he said.

So you know everything, I asked, since you know
anything ?

Everything, he replied ; yes, and you too, if you
know one thing, know all.

Good Heavens, I cried, what a wonderful state-
ment! What a great blessing to boast of! And
the rest of mankind, do they know everything or
nothing ?

Surely, he said, they cannot know some things
and not others, and so be at once knowing and
unknowing.

457

PLATO

"AMG ti; Fv 8 eyd. Ildvres, § 8 bs, wdvra
Ki F ww A @ Ss A ~ ~
emloTavTat, eimep Kat ev. °Q. mpos trav ODedr,
hv & éyw, & Avovvaddwpe- SiAou ydp poi éarov
70n Ott omovddlerov, Kai pods Buds mpodKadre-
cdunv omovddlew: atta t@ ovTt mavTa éniota-
o8ov; ofov texrovikny Kal oxutixyny; dv y’,
efn. *H kat vevpoppadeitv Svvatd éorov; Kai
vat pa Ala xarrvew, edn. *%H Kai ra rovadra,

‘ > L4 ¢ / a. 0 ‘ 4 »” . 7,
Tous aoTépas, omdaot elol, Kal tiv dupov; Ilavu
ye, 9 8° ds: eit’ odk dv ole Ouoroynaat Huds ;

Kai 6 Kronos trodaBav: Ilpds Atds,
» 4 ee eke ,
efn, Avovvaddwpe, texunpidv ti por Todtwr
emdeiEatov ToLvee, @ Elaopar, Te dAnOH A€yeTov.
Ti émdelEw; edn. Oloba Ed0vdSnuov, émdcous

ddovras Eyer, Kal 6 EdOvdnpuos, omdaous av;

> > a »” > ~ if , Ms
Otvx efapxet cor, edn, aKxodom, om mdvTa

3 /
emoraucia;
~ ~ val ,
Mydapds, 4 8 bs, GAAa Tobro Ert Hiv povov
~ ‘
elmatrov Kal émdeiEatov, Ott aAnOH AéyeTov" Kai
7 ‘
€av elmntov, Omdcous éxdtepos exer Bud@v, Kal
f , ¢€ ~ > /, v ,
daivynobe yvovtes judy apiOunoavtrwr, 7dn TeELad-
cba dpiv Kat TaAAa.
> >
‘“Hyovpevw obv oxuwmrecbar ov nOeAerny, GAA
e rv 4 , , eve of (he
Gporoynodrny mavta xpyyata eriotacba, Ka
év Exaotov éepwrapevor bd Kryoimmov. 6 yap
458

ee

wie) ee

»

eee eg

Te RE Pe

EUTHYDEMUS

But what then? I asked.

All men, he replied, know all things, if they know
one.

In the name of goodness, Dionysodorus, I said—
for now I can see both of you are serious ; before,
I could hardly prevail on you to be so—do you
yourselves really know everything? Carpentry, for
instance, and shoe-making ?

Certainly, he said.

And you are good hands at leather-stitching ?

Why yes, in faith, and cobbling, he said.

And are you good also at such things as counting
the stars, and the sand ?

Certainly, he said: can you think we would not
admit that also ?

Here Ctesippus broke in: Be so good, Diony-
sodorus, he said, as to place some such evidence
before me as will convince me that what you say
is true.

What shall I put forward? he asked.

Do you know how many teeth Euthydemus has,

and does Euthydemus know how many you have ?

Are you not content, he rejoined, to be told that

_ we know everything?

No, do not say that, he replied : only tell us this
one thing more, and propound to us that you speak
the truth. Then, if you tell us how many teeth each
of you has, and you are found by our counting to
have known it, we shall believe you thenceforth in
everything else likewise.

Well, as they supposed we were making fun of
them, they would not do it: only they agreed that

‘ they knew all subjects, when questioned on them,

one after the other, by Ctesippus; who, before he
459

295

PLATO

Kr7 t i adv: dev 6
nountos mavy amapaxad’ntws ovdev 6 Tt
odk Hpwra TeAevTaY, Kal Ta aloyvoTa, Ei EmLOTAL-
‘ A > , ¢ / wv ~ > ,
abnv: ta dé avdpedtata oudce ATHY TOis EpwT7)-
pacw, opuodoyodvTes eidévat, Womep ot Kampot
of mpos THY TAnyIV Ouoce WHovpevor, War Eywye
\ > 2 > ’ Cn, 42 , > ,
kai abdtos, ® Kpitwv, tx’ amorias apaynaotyy
a 97.4 A 2 /
teAeuTav épéobar [rov Eddvdypov],* €f Kal dpyxet-
ofa émictaito 6 Arovugodenpes: 6 Se, Ildvv,
éfy. Od Symov, jv 8 eywd, Kal és paxaipas
ye kuBiorav Kal emi tpoyot Sweiobat tHAvKobros
»” Ma / ’ ov 3 4 A a
dv, otrw moppw aodias yKeis; Ovdder, Edy, 6
* , / ke ee | , , ~ ,
tt ov. Ildrepov dé, Hv 8 eyw, mavTa viv povov
éniotacbov 7 Kai aei; Kal dei, dn. Kai ore
, ” ‘ 779 , > ,
nadia yorny Kat ev0ds yevomevor rriotacbe;
Ildvra, ebarny dpa apdorépw.
Kai piv pev dmorov éddxer 76 mpaypa elvac-
6 8 Evdvdnpos, "Amoreis, bn, @ LwxKpares;
lod ‘
TIAjv y’ dre, <i 8 >* eyed, eixos buds earl codovds
elvat. AXA’ qv, dn, eBeAjons por arroxpivecBar,
oS 5 , ‘ \ ~ X f) as r x
eyw emideiEw Kat o€ tabra Ta Oavpacra opodo-
yoovra. "Ada pry, jv 8 eyw, ndvota tavra
‘ ‘
eEedéyyouar. i yap Tor AeAnBa ewavtdv aodos
av, av d€ TobTO embeifers ws wavTa eniorapat
Kal det, ti peilov er avTod av etpouue ev
ravi TO Biw;
e ,
‘ * A moxpivov 8n, &dn. ‘Qs dmoxpwovpevouv
1 rov Ev@vdnuov secl. Hermann.
2 jv 5 add. Cornarius.
460

EUTHYDEMUS

had done with them, asked them if they knew
every kind of thing, even the most unseemly, with-
out the least reserve; while they most valiantly
encountered his questions, agreeing that they had
the knowledge in each case, like boars when driven
up to face the spears: so that I for my part, Crito,
became quite incredulous,and had to ask in the end
if Dionysodorus knew also how to dance.- To which
he replied: Certainly.

I do not suppose, I said, that you have attained
such a degree of skill as to do sword-dancing, or be
whirled about on a wheel, at your time of life ?

There is nothing, he said, that I cannot do.

Then tell me, I went on, do you know everything ©
at present only, or for ever?

For ever too, he said.

And when you were children, and were just born,
you knew ?

Everything, they both replied together.

Now, to us the thing seemed incredible: then
Euthydemus said: You do not believe it, Socrates ?

I will only say, I replied, that you must indeed

be clever.

_ Why, he said, if you will consent to answer me, I
Mi propound that you too admit these surprising
acts.

Oh, I am only too glad, I replied, to be refuted
in the matter. For if I am not aware of my own
cleverness, and you are going to show me that I
know everything always, what greater stroke of
luck than this could befall me in all my living
days?

Then answer me, he said.

Ask: I am ready to answer.

VOL. IV Q 461

PLATO

B epwira. Ap’ odv, ébn, & UdKpates, emorhpwv

hal wv ”
tov el 7 ov; “Eywye. Ildrepov ody & émorjpwv

4 A > , a“ >
el, roUrw Kal émioraca, 7) GAAw tw; “Qu ém-

7,
oTHuw. oluar yap ce tiv wuynv Aéyew: 7 Ov
~ /
tobro déyers; Ovdx aicxtvn, edn, & Ud«pares;
> 4 > ~
Epwrwpevos avrepwrds; Elev, fv 8 eyw: adda
TOS TOD; oOVTW yap ToLnow, OTws av od KEeAEvUyS.
oe \ DA Ld > ~ 4 bf
Grav pn €l0@ 6 Te epwrds, Kedevets pe Spws
amoxpiveo0at, aAAa pr emavepéobar; ‘YmoAap-
/
Baveis yap Simov ti, edn, 6 Aéyw; “Eywye, jv
3” > 7 ‘ lod , > , “a ¢
eyw. IIpos toro troivyy dmoxpivov, 6 vmo-
AapBavers. Ti odv, edny, av od pev addn epwrds
‘
dtavoovpevos, ey S€ aGAAn broAdBw, Emevra mpos
TotTo amoKpivwya, e€apKel aor, eav pndev Tpos
” > / ” > i ae ,
Eros amroxpivwuar; “Euouye, 7 8° Os* od pevTot
, e > = > LZ A / >
coi ye, ws eyapat. Od tow pa Ala aro-
a a tg WE Reet. , f 1 oN ,
Kpwotpat, Hv 8° eyed, mporepov, mplv av 7v0wpar.
> > ~ ” A an > \ ¢ ,
Otvx dmoxpwH, édyn, mpos & av det drodapBarys,
id ” a ae / a if
ott €xwv havapeis Kal adpyadtepos ef Tod SéovTos.
Kaya éyvwv adbrov drt pow xaderaivor dia-
atéAAovtt Ta Aeyopeva, .BovAdpmevds pe Onpedoat
‘A of , > , s ~
Ta OvopaTa TepioTioas. aveuvnoOny ovv Tod
id a > cal Ld e ,
Kovvov, dtt pow KaKeivos yaderaiver eKaorTorTe,
g > ~ A e / ” , >
Grav atT@ pu) breikw, Emertd pou Frrov emt-
462

EUTHYDEMUS

Well then, Socrates, he asked, have you know-
ledge of something, or not ?

I have.

And tell me, do you know with that whereby you
have knowledge, or with something else ?

With that whereby I have knowledge: I think
you mean the soul, or is not that your meaning ?

Are you not ashamed, Socrates, he said, to ask a
question on your side when you are being questioned ?

Very well, I said: but how am I to proceed? I
will do just as you bid me. When I cannot tell
what you are asking, is it your order that I answer
all the same, without asking a question upon it ?

Why, he replied, you surely conceive some meaning
in what I say ?

I do, I replied.

Answer then to the meaning you conceive to be
in my words.

Well, I said, if you ask a question with a different
meaning in your mind from that which I conceive,
and I answer to the latter, are you content I should
answer nothing to the point ?

For my part, he replied, I shall be content: you,

however, will not, so far as I can see.

Then I declare I shall not answer, I said, before
I get it right. ;
You refuse to answer, he said, to the meaning you

_ conceive in each case, because you will go on drivel-
_ ling, you hopeless old dotard !

Here I perceived he was annoyed with me for

_ distinguishing between the phrases used, when he
_ wanted to entrap me in his verbal snares. So I
_ remembered Connus, how he too is annoyed with
_ me whenever I do not give in to him, with the

463

296

PLATO

perciras ws duabots dvros: eet 8é ody Sevevonpnv
kal mapa todrov doitav, wyOnv Sev dreixew,
/
HH fe oKaiov yynoduevos dourntiv pa mpoo-
/ a
S€xouro. elzov obv: "AA ei Soxet cor, EdOvdype,
4 a /, \ ‘ 4, /
oUTW ToLeiv, TonTéov’ oD yap TavTwWs Tov KGA-
A Sry, 8 A , 0 a” > tA / ww
tov emiotacar Siaréyecbar 7 eyw, Téxvyv Exwv
iSudtov avOpwmov: épudra obv madAw e€ apyis.
>
Amoxpivov 5, bn, mdAw, moTepov éemiotacai
ew ee ”“ a iA YY ” a ~
Tw & éeniotacat, 7) ov; “Eywye, ednv, TH ye Wuy7-
Otros ad, én, mpoocamoxpiverar Tois epwrw-

pévots. ov yap eywye epwrd Oorw, adr ei

eriotacal tw. Ilddov ad, edyv eyw, tod déovtos ©

> , e A > / 5 A
amexpwaunv bd armawevoias: adda ovy-
‘ , > ~ A ” c ~ a
ylyvwoKé pol’ amoKpwotpar yap. on amA@s ort
emrioTapat 1 emi Ilo 9 8 6

pal Tw a emiorapa. OTEpov, os,
~ > al , > > #7 na 4 a 4 4
T® adT@ TovTw y’ ael, } €oTe pev Ste TOUTW, EaTt
. + . +
A v¢ ¢n 9 ?A. , @ | Pee > i > /
dé ore érépw; Aci, drav ériorwpuat, jv 8 eyo,

tovTw. Ovx ad, edn, mavoe rapadbeyydopuevos;

"AM Srws pH Te Huds ohare? TO del TooTO.

OvKcouv ads ye, dn, add’ elmep, od. GAN

2. , ea > , ee |
dmoxptvov: } det toUtTw énioraca; "Aci, Hv 5

eyw, ened?) Set adedciv to drav. Odxody del

4 , 27 2. 9? 2 s ,
fev TOUTW ETTLOTAOAL*® AEL 5 ETTLOTALLEVOS TOTEPOV
464

—

EUTHYDEMUS

result that he now takes less trouble over me as
being a stupid person. So being minded to take
lessons from this new teacher, I decided that I
had better give in, lest he should take me for a
blockhead and not admit me to his classes. So I
said: Well, if you think fit, Euthydemus, to proceed
thus, we must do so; in any case I suppose you
understand debating better than I do—you are
versed in the method, and I am but a layman.
Begin your questions, then, over again.

Now, answer me once more, he said: do you

_ know what you know by means of something, or

not?
’ I do, I replied ; by means of my soul.
There he is again, he said, answering more than

_ he is asked. For I am not asking what the means

is, but only whether you know by some means.
Yes, I did again answer more than I ought, I said,

_ through lack of education. But forgive me, and I

will now simply reply that I know what I know
by some means.
By one and the same means always, he asked, or

_ sometimes by one and sometimes by another ?

Always, whenever I know, I replied, it is by this
means.

There again, he cried, you really must stop adding
these qualifications.

But I am so afraid this word “always” may
bring us to grief.

Not us, he rejoined, but, if anyone, you. Now

| answer: do you know by this means always?

Always, I replied, since I must withdraw the
““ whenever.”

Then you always know by this means: that being
465

PLATO
A ‘ 2h,
Ta pev ToUTw erictaca @ éerioracat, Ta 8 GdAAw,
n“ , /, >
tovTw mavta; Totrw, édnv éyw, dmavTa, a y
> 7 a > > 7 ” Md A + %
emtotapat. Todr’ éxeivo, edn Kew TO adro
/ a . a >
trapadpbeyua. Add’ adaipd, ednv éyw, TO a y
» ets > ?
eriorayat. “AAAad pndé ev, edn, adéAns* od-
\ 4 4
dev yap cov Séoua. aAAd pot amdKpwa: Svvato
n” o¢
av dmavTa emiotacba, ef pi) mavTa émiora.o;
si I 4 \ bal w on 5° > 7 ‘ a iz “
€pas yap ay ein, iv eyw. Kat Os etme
IIpoorife. toivywy dn 6 te BovAa> aravra
A e a“ ” > ,
yap opodoyeis emiotacba. “Eouxa, edyny eyo,
> , > / ow 7 ‘ a
emevonmep ye ovdcuiav exer Stvayw TO a
2F 4 \ De ok > ~ 4 > 4
erioTrapa, mavTa dé éemiorayar. Ovdxodv Kat aet
, ,
porcgynkas émictacba. TovTw, @ EmicTacat,
ire Otay én elite 6 BovAer- det ya
elte Otay eémiorn elite Omws € yap
Cpordgynkas emiotacbar Kal dua mavra SHAov
> bd ‘ a Bal > / 4 ae? . Oey:
ovv, OTe Kal mais @v HrioTw, Kal Gr’ eytyvou,
‘
Kal 67 édvov: Kat mplv adbros yeveoPar, Kai

~ > ,
mpw ovpavov Kai yhv yevéoba, AmioTw dzmavTa,

” Ae" ee ‘ ‘ \ , ” q
elmep det eémiotraca. Kai vat pa Ata, én,

a. 4 b Roan Pies , \ @ nn 2% ,
abros del émoTioe Kai davTa, av éyd) BovAwmas.

"Ada Bovdanfeins, fv S eyw, & modvtipnre

Evdvdnue, <i 5) TH Gvte adrnOH Ayes. GAN’
ov go. mavu muoTevw ixav@ elvar, ef py Gor oup-

Bovdnbein 6 adeAdds cov odroci Avovvaddmpos:

a / La ” la > > 4
otrw Taya av. elmerov S€ por, Hv 8 eywr

466

_—

ie a

EUTHYDEMUS

the case, do you know some things by this means
of knowing, and some things by another means, or
everything by this ?

Boerytitng. by this, I replied; everything, that
is, that I know.

There it comes ‘again, he cried; the same
qualification !

Well, I withdraw my “ that is, that I know.”

No, do not withdraw a single word, he said: I
ask you for no concession. Only answer me: could
you know all things if you did not know everything ?

It would be most surprising, I said.

Then he went on: You may therefore add on
now whatever you please: for you admit that you
know all things.

It seems I do, I replied, seeing that my “ that I
know” has no force, and I know everything.

Now you have also admitted that you know

-always by the means whereby you know, whenever
you know—or however you like to put it. For you
have admitted that you always know and, at the
same time, everything. Hence it is clear that even
as a child you knew, both when you were being born
and when you were being conceived: and before
you yourself came into being or heaven and earth
existed, you knew all things, since you always know.
Yes, and I declare, he said, you yourself will always
know all things, if it be my pleasure.

Oh, pray let it be your pleasure, I replied, most
worshipful Euthydemus, if what you say is really
true. Only I do not quite trust in your efficacy,
if your pleasure is not to be also that of your brother
here, Dionysodorus: if it is, you will probably
prevail. And tell me, I went on, since I cannot

467

PLATO

E 7a pev yap adda otk éxw tpiv rds dudicBynroinv,

97

4 > getyy / > 4 Ld
oUTws eis codiav teparwdecw avOpumros, Smws
> / > , > A ¢ ~ Ld A A
ov TavTa emioTapat, emerdy) tucts hare: ta Se
Toudde TOs $@ eriotacba, Edvvdnue, ws ot
> \ ” »” U ? 4 , So AL8 ~
ayaoi dvdpes ddikoi eior; dépe eine, todo
emioTapat 7 ovK émiotapat; *"Emioraca pévrot,
eon. Ti; fv 8 eyad. “Ort od« addiKol ciow
of ayaboi. IIdvu ye, fv 8 eywd, mada: adr
> ~ > ~ 5 > e + , > e > ,
ov TobdTo epwrd: add’ ws dbdiKoi elow of ayaboi,
Tob €yw Tobro Euabov; Ovddapod, bn 6 Avovucd-
Swpos. Odx dpa eriorapa, épnv, Toro eyw.
Atapbeipers, edn, Tov Adyov, 6 EvOvsnuos mpos
tov Atovvaddwpov, Kai davicetat odtoot ovK
ETLOTAMLEVOS, Kal emOTHUWY aya Dv Kal. av-
emuoTnuwv. Kat 6 Avovyaddwpos ApvOpiacer.
"Aa ov, Hv 8 ey, mds A€yeis, G EvOvSnpe;
b] a > ~ > A , e / > 7
od Soke? aot opbds adeAdhos A€yew 6 mavTa cidas;
"AdeAdhos yap, edn, eyo eis EdOvdnuov, tayd
e A e /, > ‘ ”
droAaBwv 6 Avovvaddwpos; Kaya elzov, “Eagov,
@ *yabé, ews av Evdvdnuds pe diddén, ws eni-
\ > A ot 4 * , > ‘
oTapat Tovs ayafovs avdpas Ort aduKoi €iot, Kal
, 6 , ~ a] , @ 4 A
pn por Pbovycns Tod pabjuartos. evyes, edn,
- tA e , A > 27
® LXdxpates, 6 Atovvaddwpos, Kai otdK ebédets
> , > , > > > t, 4 4
amoxpwvec0ar. Eixorws y’, elrov éyw: yrTwv yap
cyt Kal TOD érépov tudv, wWoTe TroAAod Séw pH
> , 4 A A tA > ,
od dvo ye devyew. modd yap mov «ip davio-
tepos tot ‘“HpaxAéous, ds ody olds te Hv TH TE
vdpa Staydyecbar, acodiotpia oven Kai Sia TH
468

Seer es ere a

arre

EUTHYDEMUS

hope in a general way to dispute the statement that
I know everything with persons so prodigiously
clever—since it is your statement—how am I to say
L know certain things, Euthydemus; for instance,
that good men are unjust? Come, tell me, do I
know this or not ?

You know it certainly, he said.

What? I said.

That the good are not unjust.

Quite so, I said: I knew that all the time; but
that is not what I ask: tell me, where did I learn
that the good are unjust ?

Nowhere, said Dionysodorus.

Then I do not know this, I said.

You are spoiling the argument, said Euthydemus
to Dionysodorus, and we shall find that this fellow
does not know, and is at once both knowing and un-
At this Dionysodorus reddened. But you, I said,

_ what do you mean, Euthydemus. Do you find that

your brother, who knows everything, has not spoken
aright ?

I a brother of Euthydemus? quickly interposed
Dionysodorus.

Whereupon I said: Let me alone, good sir, till
Euthydemus has taught me that I know that good
men are unjust, and do not grudge me this lesson.

You are running away, Socrates, said Dionyso-
dorus; you refuse to answer.

Yes, and with good reason, | said: for I am
weaker than either one of you, so I have no scruple
about running away from the two together. You
see, I am sadly inferior to Hercules, who was no
match for the hydra—that she-professor who was

VOL. IV Q2 469

98

PLATO

codiav avicion, «i pilav Kedadyy tod Adyouv tis
amoTewot, moAAas avTi THs pias, Kal KapKivw
Twi érépw oodiorh, ex Oaddrrns adiypevw, vewori,
pot Soxeiv, KatamemAevKdti: Os eémetdy) avrov
chimes ovTws €K TOO em dpiotepa Aéywv Kal
ddKvewv, Tov "ToAcwv Tov aderpidoov BonBov
emekaAéoato, 6 dé av’T@ ixavads eBonOncev. 6
5° €uos "ToAcws [Tlarpoxdis ]! él Edo, mAéov av
Odrepov TOUNnCELEV.

“Amréxpwat 57, éby 6 Avovvaddaspos, OmOTE
cot TadTa wuvyntar: moTEpov oO "ToAcws tod ‘Hpa-
Kdéovs padAov Fv adeApidods 7 ods; Kpatiorov
toivuy por, ® Avovvaddwpe, tv & eyed, dmoKxpiva-
ofai cor. od yap py) avis épwradv, axedov Tt
eyes tobr «bd olda, POovev Kat dvaxcwddwv, iva

pay diddén pe Evdvdqpos € exeivo TO aodov. “Amro-
Kpivou 54, €dn. “Arroxpivopat 57, lov, or
Tod ‘HpaxAcous HV o "ToAews deApidovs, €j10s
3°, ws euol Soxei, ove” Omworvoby. od yap
IlatpokAjs jv avr TAT, 6 €pos ddeAdss,
aAAa tapamAjoiov wey ToUVvo“a “Igucdjjs, 6 6 “Hpa-
KAéous ddeAgs. TlarpoxAjjs bé, 7 3 és, o0s;
Ildvy y’, epyy eye, OMOMHTPLOS of od pevTot
Opmomrarptos. "AdeA pos dpa cork got Kal ovK
addeddos. Ovx Opmomarpids ‘ye, @ BeAruore, ebay’

exeivov pev yap Xatpednpos qv maThp, euos be |

Lwdpovicxos. Ilarijp de i, € eon, LwdpovicKos

Kal Xarpednpos ; ; law y’, epqy: 6 pev ye eds, —
6 dé éxeivov. Odxodv, 7 & ds, Erepos tv Xaupe- |

1 TIlarpoxdjs secl. Heindorf.

1 i.e, any kinsman or helper I might summon would only _

add to the number of your victims.
470

a

6 Ne ee ee

EUTHYDEMUS

so clever that she sent forth many heads of de-
bate in place of each one that was cut off; nor
for another sort of crab-professor from the sea—
freshly, I fancy, arrived on shore; and, when the
hero was so bothered with its leftward barks
and bites, he summoned his nephew Iolaus to the
rescue, and he brought him effective relief. But if
my Iolaus were to come, he would do more harm
than good.!

Well, answer this, said Dionysodorus, now you
have done your descanting: Was Iolaus more
Hercules’ nephew than yours ?

I see I had best answer you, Dionysodorus, I
said. For you will never cease putting questions—
I think I may say I am sure of this—in a grudging,
obstructing spirit, so that Euthydemus may not
teach me that bit of cleverness.

Then answer, he said.

Well, I answer, I said, that Iolaus was Hercules’
nephew, but not mine, so far as I can see, in any
way whatever. For Patrocles, my brother, was not
his father; only Hercules’ brother Iphicles had a
name somewhat similar to his.

And Patrocles, he said, is your brother ?

Certainly, I said: that is, by the same mother,
but not by the same father.

Then he is your brother and not your brother.

Not by the same father, worthy sir, I replied. His
father was Chaeredemus, mine Sophroniscus.

So Sophroniscus and Chaeredemus, he said, were
“ father” ?

Certainly, 1 said: the former mine, the latter his.

Then surely, he went on, Chaeredemus was other
than “ father”?

471

PLATO

Snpos Tob matpos; Todpuod y’; édnv éyd. Ap’
> A > 7 x” / n” \ c > A
ov TaTIp Hv ETEpos Mv TaTpos; 7H ad el 6 adros
T@ AlOw; Agdouxa pev eywy’, ednv, pr davd
bo ood 6 adrds: od péevToe por SoK@. Ovdxodv
erepos el, by, Tod Niov; “Erepos wévtor. ”“AXXo
Tu obv ETEpos, 7 8 Os, dv AiBov od AiBos ef; Kal
ETEpos WY xpvaod od yxpvaos ef; “Koti taba.
Otxodv Kai 6 Xaipédnuos, én, Erepos w@v tatpos
>’ nan A w »” 9 7 2 \
ovK av matnp ein. “Eouxev, qv 8° eye, od mrarip

> > \ / ” / > c
civat, Et yap dimov, edn, matip eotw 6 Xa-
pednpos, trodabwv 6 Eddvdnuos, mdAw ad o
Lwdpoviokos ETEpos WY TaTpOs Ov TaTIp eoTW,
Wate ov, ® LaKpares, ardtwp el.

Kai 6 Kriyourmos éxdcédpuevos, “O dé tpuérepos,

” > \ > 248 ~ , ” ,
edn, av TATIpP OV TAVTA TAVTA mrémrovbev ; ETEPOS -

€ott tovpod matpds; IloAAod y’, edn, Set, 6

Evdvdnuos. “AAAd, i 8 ds, 6 adrés; “O adros
pevror. Odx« av ovpBovdaoiunyv. aAda zoTepov,
> 707 ai. 8 , eee A ” \ a

@ Evdvdnue, eos pdvos €ott matnp 7 Kal Tay

dMwv avOpairwv; Kai trav ddAwv, edn: 7 ole
Tov avrov matépa 6vta od matépa elvar; “Ouyny

Sita, é6n 6 Kryjourmos. Ti dd; 4 8 ds* xpucoy
dvra pr) xpvodv elvar; 7 dvOpwaov dvra pny
avOpwrov; Mr) ydp, dy 6 Krijoummos, & Evdu- —

1 Of. Gorgias, 494 a, where “the life of a stone” is given

as a proverbial example of a life without pleasure or pain.
472

£

EUTHYDEMUS

Than mine, at any rate, I said.

Why then, he was father while being other than
father. Or are you the same as “the stone”?!

I fear you may prove that of me, I said, though
I do not feel like it.

Then are you other than the stone ?

Other, I must say.

Then of course, he went on, if you are other than
stone, you are not stone? And if you are other
than gold, you are not gold?

Quite so.

Hence Chaeredemus, he said, being other than
father, cannot be “ father.”

It seems, I said, that he is not a father.

No, for I presume, interposed Euthydemus, that
if Chaeredemus is a father Sophroniscus in his turn,
being other than a father, is not a father; so that
you, Socrates, are fatherless.

Here Ctesippus took it up, observing: And your
father too, is he not in just the same plight? Is
he other than my father ?

Not in the slightest, said Euthydemus.

What, asked the other, is he the same?

The same, to be sure.

I should not like to think he was: but tell me,
Euthydemus, is he my father only, or everybody
else’s too?

_ Everybody else’s too, he replied; or do you
suppose that the same man, being a father, can be
no father ?

I did suppose so, said Ctesippus.

Well, said the other, and that a thing being gold
could be not gold? Or being a man, not man?

Perhaps, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus, you. are

473

E

PLATO

Syne, TO Aceyopevov, od Awvov Aww ouvdrTes. —
Sewov yap A€yers mpaypa, ef 6 ods TaTIp TavTWY
> ‘ / > > »” ” 4 j >
eott marip. "AX €orw, edn. Ildrepov av-
Opirwv; 4 8 ds 6 Krnoirmos, 7 Kat tnmwv;
7 Kal TOv GAAwv ravrwv Cadwv; Tlavtwv, édn.
7H \ 7 ¢ , ‘ K \ e ta K ‘
kal pxrnp parnp; Kal 4 pxrnp ye. Kai
Tav éxivwv apa, €dn, 7 07) “ATH PATHp eoTt TaV
Barartiwv. Kai 7 of y’, €¢n. Kai od dpa
3 ‘ ~ ~ \ , ‘
adeApos ef tv Kkwhid@v Kai Kvvapiwy Kal youpt-
diwv. Kai yap ov, 逢n. Kdapos' dpa coat
ek \ , ees | , ;
maTyp eott Kal KUwv. Kai yap aol, edn.
Adrixa 5é ye, 7 8 ds 6 Atovvaddwpos, av pot
amoxpivn, ® Kryourme, dporoyjoes tadra. eimeé

, ” , A /, , mw
ydp por, €oTt aor KUwv; Kat pada rrovnpds, bn
6 Kriyourmos. “Eotrw obv atr® xvvidia; Kai

¢\? ” 7 a > ~ /, >
par’, bn, Erepa tovadra. OvdKodv maryp éorw

> ~ e 4 ” / uv aS
avtav 6 Kvwv; “Eywyé to eldov, edn, avdrov
> , ‘ 4, Ld x > / > c
dxevovta thy Kiva. Ti odv; od ods eoTw oO.

4, 4, > ” > ~ A n /,
kvwv; ldvy y’, dn. Odxodv marip adv ads
€oTw, WoTe aos TaTHp ylyverat 6 KUwY Kal od

Kuvaplwv adeAdds ;

Kai at&is raxyd tzodaBdw 6 Atovyvaddwpos,
¢ \ , , ” G / 1» 4
wa pa mporepov te etzoe 6 Kriourmos, Kai ere
yé po puKpov, €hn, amdxpwat: tUmTes Tov KIVA

1 xdmpos Badham: kal pds Mss.

1 j.e, treating two different things as the same.

474

EUTHYDEMUS

knotting flax with cotton,! as they say: for it is a
strange result that you state, if your father is father
of all.

He is, though, was the reply.

Of all men, do you mean? asked Ctesippus, or of
horses too, and all other animals ?

Of all, he said.

And is your mother a mother in the same way?

My mother too.

And is your mother a mother of sea-urchins ?

Yes, and yours is also, he replied.

So then you are a brother of the gudgeons and
whelps and porkers.

Yes, and so are you, he said.

Then your father is a boar and a dog.

And so is yours, he said.

Yes, said Dionysodorus, and it will take you but
a moment, if you will answer me, Ctesippus, to
acknowledge all this. Just tell me, have you a dog?

Yes, a real rogue, said Ctesippus.

Has he got puppies ?

Yes, a set of rogues like him.

Then is the dog their father ?

Yes, indeed ; I saw him with my own eyes covering
the bitch.

' Well now, is not the dog yours?

Certainly, he said.

Thus he is a father, and yours, and accordingly
the dog turns out to be your father, and you a
brother of whelps.

Hereupon Dionysodorus struck in again quickly,
lest Ctesippus should get a word in before him:
Answer me just one more little point : do you beat
this dog?

475

PLATO :

totrov; «at 6 Kriowrmos yeAdoas, Ni ods
Beovs, bn: od yap Svvapa cé. Ovdxodv tov
299 savtod rarépa, épn, TUmreis. IloAd pevrou, edn,
. Sukadtepov tov tpérepov marépa tint Out, O Tt
pabav codods vieis odtws educev. GAN H mov,
@ Evdvdnue, bn 6 Kryourmos, 16d” ayaa azo
Ths bpetepas codias tavrns amoAdAavKev 6 TaAT1)p
6 bueérepds Te Kal 6 tev Kuvidiwv. *AAX oddev
Seirar moAAdv ayabdv, & Kryourme, ovr éxeivos
ovte at. Ovddeé ov, 7 8 ds, & Evdvdnue, atros;
Ovdse dAAos ye ovdeis avOpwmwv. «ime yap por,
B® Kryourme, et dyabov vopilers elvar aobevodvrt
ddppakov metvy 7» ovdK ayabov elvat SoKxel cot,

id s ” > , oe mw ca Ais
otav Sénrau 7 eis moAcuov Stay in, dmAa exovTa
pGAAov iévar 7 avorrAov. "“Epovuye, édn. Katror
oluai ti oe TOV KaAdv épeiv. Ld dpiora etoe,

” > > > , > A ‘ e /
epn: aA’ amoxpivov. émed7) yap wpoddyets

> A , o 4 , > 4
ayabov elvar dappaxov, otav Sén, mivew avOpwirra,

wy” ~ 4 > A e ”~ ~ tA
aAAo tu TobTo TO ayabov ws mAcioTov Set riveww,

A ~ > a @ 7 > ~ / > /
Kat KaAd@s Exel E€eu, edv Tis adT@ Tplibas EyKepdon
€AAcBopov duagav; Kat 6 Kriourmos ele, Ilavy
C ye ofddpa, & EdOvdnue, av 4 ye 6 Tivwv soos
6 avdpias 6 ev AcAdois. Odxodv, edn, Kal ev
~ y 3 > A > , > a wv €
T® ToAdum émevd7) ayabdv eotw omAa Eexew, ws

~ aw , 6 VF A > ,
mAciora Set €xew Sdpara Te Kal aoridas, emevdymTEp
ayabov é€orw; Mada dyzov, €py 6 Kriourmos:

476

EUTHYDEMUS

Ctesippus laughed and said: My word, yes;
since I cannot beat you !

So you beat your own father ? he said.

There would be much more justice, though, he
replied, in my beating yours, for being so ill-advised
as to beget clever sons like you. Yet I doubt,
Ctesippus went on, if your father, Euthydemus—
the puppies’ father—has derived much good from
this wisdom of yours.

Why, he has no need of much good, Ctesippus,
neither he nor you.

And have you no need either, yourself, Euthy-
demus ? he asked.

No, nor has any other man. Just tell me,
Ctesippus, whether you think it good for a sick
man to drink physic when he wants it, or whether
you consider it not good ; or for a man to go to the
wars with arms rather than without them.

With them, I think, he replied: and yet I believe
you are about to utter one of your pleasantries.

You will gather that well enough, he said: only
answer me. Since you admit that physic is good
. for a man to drink when necessary, surely one ought
to drink this good thing as much as possible; and
in such a case it will be well to pound and infuse in it
a cart-load of hellebore ?

To this Ctesippus replied : Quite so, to be sure,
Euthydemus, at any rate if the drinker is as big as
- the Delphian statue.

Then, further, since in war, he proceeded, it is
good to have arms, one ought to have as many
spears and shields as possible, if we agree that it is a
good thing ? ;

Yes, I suppose, said Ctesippus ; and you, Euthy-

477

300

PLATO

>
od 8 ovK ole, @ Evdvdnpe, ava play Kal €v
Sdpu; "Eywye. 7H kai tov [npudvnv av, dn,
kai Tov Bpidpewv odtw od odmdAicais; éyd Se
” , :
@unv oe Sewdrepov elvat, ate omAopaxyny ovTa, Kal
TOVOE Tov éraipov.

Kai 6 pev EvOvSnpos eotynoev” | 6 dé Atovuad-
Swpos mpos Ta mpdTEpov amoKeKpyseva TH Kryo-
, M4 > ~ \ t 2 ¢ > \
imm@ npeto, Odxobv Kai xpvaiov, 4 8 ds, ayabov
Soxe? cor civas é€yew; Tldvu, cat tadrad ye odd,
” e aA
epn oO Kryourmos. Ti obv; ayaba od Soxet

~ 1 ef > ” ‘ ~ /
gout xpivat' aet 7 exew Kal ravraxod; Udddpa
> ” > ~ ‘ A / > \ et
y’, «dn. Odxotv Kai to ypuaiov ayafov opodo-
yeis elvat; ‘Quoddynxa pev odv, 7 8 ds. OdKxodv

‘ a ~ >
acl det adro exew Kal mavtaxod Kal ws uddvoTa eV
€avT@; Kal ein dv evdayoveoraros, «i €xor
Xpvaiov bev Tpia tdAavra év TH yaorpl, rdhavrov
8S &y tO xpaviw, orariipa be _ xpvo0d ev exarepy
rapbadua; Maci ye odv, & Evdvdnue, edn 6
Krijoinmos, tovtovs evdapoveotatous elvat LKv-
Oév Kal apiorovs avipas, ot xpvaiov te ev Tots

a ~ A
Kpaviots €xovot moAd toils €avT@v, womep ad
~ A ww 4 uA ‘ , 5 “
viv 5) €deyes Tov Kiva Tov marépa, Kal 6 Bav-
pacwrepov ye ETL, OTe Kal mivovow eK THY éavT@v
Kpaviwy Kexpvowpevwr, Kal Tara evTds KaBopaat,
THY €avTav Kopudiy ev tais yepolv €xovtes.
[orepov be opa@ow, edn 6 EvOvdnuos, Kat LKvba
Te Kat of ddA avOpwror Ta SvvaTa opav H Ta

1 ypiva Badham: xpijuara Mss.

4 Two fabulous giants (Geryon had three, Briareus fifty,
pairs of arms).

478

OO

EUTHYDEMUS

demus, do you take the other view, that it should be
one shield and one spear ?

Yes, I do.

What, he said, and would you arm Geryon also
and Briareus!in this way? I thought you more of an
expert than that, considering you are a man-at-arms,
and your comrade here too !

At this Euthydemus was silent; then Dionyso-
dorus asked some questions on Ctesippus’ previous
answers, saying: Well now, gold is in your opinion
a good thing to have ?

Certainly, and—here I agree—plenty of it too,
said Ctesippus.

Well then, do you not think it right to have good
things always and everywhere ?

Assuredly, he said.

Then do you admit that gold is also a good ?

Why, I have admitted it, he replied.

Then we ought always to have it, and everywhere,
and above all, in oneself? And one will be happiest
if one has three talents of gold in one’s belly, a
talent in one’s skull, and a stater of gold in each
eye?

Well, Euthydemus, replied Ctesippus, they say
that among the Scythians those are the happiest
and best men who have a lot of gold in their own
skulls—somewhat as you were saying a moment ago
that “ dog” is “ father”’; and a still more marvellous
thing is told, how they drink out of their skulls
when gilded, and gaze inside them, holding their
own headpiece in their hands.

Tell me, said Euthydemus, do the Scythians and

men in general see things possible of sight, or things
impossible ?

479

PLATO

advvata; Ta Svvara Srjz0v. Odxodv Kal oad,
én; Kays. ‘Opds obv ta apérepa tudria;
Nat. Avvara otv odpdv éori rtadra. ‘Yzep-
duas, bn 6 Krijourmos. Tidé; 48 ds. Mndev.
\ Di ow. > ” > A [ aoa 4 ¢ \
ov 8 tows odk olee atta opav: otrws Hdvds ef.
GAAd pow Soxeis, EdvOvdnpe, od KabedSwv émixe-
~ ‘ > aod /, A ,
Koy.joba, Kal ef olov te A€yovta pydev Aéyew,
Kal ov TOTO ToLEiV.

"H yap od oidv te, by 6 AvovyadSwpos, at-
-~ 4 293 «+f ~ > St © la
yavra réyew; OS’ Orwortwbv, 7 8 ds 6 Krijo-
ummos. Ap’ oddé A€yovta ovyav; “Ext Frtov,
épn. “Orav otv XiBovs Aéyns Kat EvAa xal

/ > ~ / A ” > 7
aypia, od ovyavta A€yers; OvKouv, ei ye eye,
epn, Tapepxopat ev Tots xaAKelows, adda Pbeyyo-
preva Kat Bodvra péyvotov Ta avdypia A€yerar, edv

a or ~ A e A , ”

Tis aynra.* wore TovTo pev bro aodias eAabes
ovdev eimev. add’ Ere por TO ETepov emdetEaTov,
omws ad €oT. A€yovTa ovyGv. Kal por €ddKeL
¢€ ~ c /, A \ /, ”

trepaywvidy 6 Krijovrmos 81a ta ravduxd. “Ora

A ” e >? A > / ~ ”
ovyds, epn 6 EvOvSnuos, od ravra owas; “Eywye,
ao ¢ oar ite aS 7 , A ” a
4 8 6s. Odxodv Kai ta A€yovTa ays, eimep TOV
amdavrwy é€oti ta A€yovra.’ Ti d€; &dn 6 Krijo-
urmos, od ava mavTa; Od Symov, edn 6 Evdu-

1 ra Néyovra Stephanus: 7a Aeydueva MSs.

1 The quibble is on the double meaning of duvara dpav
—(a) ** possible,” and (bd) ** able to see.”” So in what follows,
ovyavra héyew ney mean both “the ‘speaking of a silent
person,” or “speaking of silent things.”

480

Te ea ee

EUTHYDEMUS

Possible, I presume.

And you do so too?

I too.

Then you see our cloaks ?

Yes.

And have they power of sight ??

Quite extraordinarily, said Ctesippus.

What do they see? he asked.

Nothing. Perhaps you do not think they see
—you are such a sweet innocent. I should say,
Euthydemus, that you have fallen asleep with your
eyes open and, if it be possible to speak and at the
same time say nothing, that this is what you are doing.

Why, asked Dionysodorus, may there not be a

ing of the silent ?

By no means whatever, replied Ctesippus.

Nor a silence of speaking ?

Still less, he said.

Now, when you speak of stones and timbers and
irons, are you not speaking of the silent ?

Not if I walk by a smithy, for there, as they say,
the irons speak and cry aloud, when they are touched ;
so here your wisdom has seduced you into nonsense.
But come, you have still to propound me your second
point, how on the other hand there may be a silence
of speaking. (It struck me that Ctesippus was speci-
ally excited on account of his young friend’s presence.)

When you are silent, said Euthydemus, are you
not making a silence of all things ?

Yes, he replied.

Then it is a silence of speaking things also, if the
speaking are among all things.

What, said Ctesippus, are not all things silent ?

I presume not, said Euthydemus.

481

301

PLATO

> >
Snpos. "AN dpa, & BéAtioTe, Aéyer Ta wavTA;
ry / > ~
Ta ye Siov Adyovra. *ANAd, } 8 ds, od TobTo
épwt@, GAdAa Ta mdvrTa aya 7 A&yer; Oddérepa
Kal auddtepa, edn thaprdcas 6 Atovvaddwpos:
> A iif ~ > , 3 a 4 ~
ed yap olda Ott TH amoKpice ovy ELets 6 TL xpi.
‘ € / id 77 / 7 >
kal 6 Kryounmos, worep ciwle, wéya mavu ava-
Kayxydoas, "Q Edvdvdnue, &fn, 6 ddeAdds cov
3 , ‘ / \ > / ta ‘
eEnudotépixe tov Adyov, Kal amddAwAé Te Kai
Ld a / , Ad " 3
qt7yjTa. Kal 6 Krewlas wav yobn «at éyédacev,
a e /, > / cal a” /
ote 6 Kriounmos éyeveto mieiov 7) SexatrAdauos:
c ie a 1 ~ ” e K / >
6 ofua,! mavotpyos wy, 6 Kriourmos, map
abta@v tovtwy abta taira mapnKyKde* od ydp
éotw dAAwy ToradTn codia tav viv avOpwamwv.
Kaya e«imov, Ti yeAds, & KAewia, én omov-
Were KA 4 \ a \ ‘ ”
Salas ovTw mpdypact Kal Kadois; Ld yap 4dn Te
muwmote €ldes, @ Lwkpates, kadov mpayya; e€pn o
Avovuaddwpos. “Eywye, ednv, Kat modAd ye, @
AvovucdSwpe. “Apa érepa dvta tod Kadod, edn,
a) > ‘A ~ ~ > ‘ > ‘ > /, e A
) TabTa TH KOAD; Kaya ev TavTi eyevouny bro
> ‘ ‘ ¢ / , / 4
amopias, Kat ayovunv Sikaa memovOévar, ort
éypvéa, Ouws Sé erepa edyv adrod ye tod Kadod-
/ , e / > ~ LAA "Ea
mdpeote pevrot exdotw attadv KaAdos Tt. av
obv, dn, mapayevyntai cor Bods, Bods ef, Kai ore
viv eye cor mapeyst, Avovvaddwpos ef; Eddies
1 9’ oluac Badham: 6é wo MSS.

482

—

EUTHYDEMUS

But then, my good sir, do all things speak ?

Yes, I suppose, at least those that speak.

But that is not what I ask, he said: are all things
silent or do they speak ?

Neither and both, said Dionysodorus, snatching
the word from him: I am quité sure that is an
answer that will baffle you!

At this Ctesippus, as his manner was, gave a
mighty guffaw, and said: Ah, Euthydemus, your
brother has made the argument ambiguous with
his “ both,”’ and is worsted and done for.

Then Cleinias was greatly delighted and laughed,
so that Ctesippus felt his strength was as the strength
of ten: but I fancy Ctesippus—he is such a rogue—
had picked up these very words by overhearing the .
men themselves, since in nobody else of the present
age is such wisdom to be found.

So I remarked: Why are you laughing, Cleinias,
at such serious and beautiful things ?

What, have you, Socrates, ever yet seen a beauti-
ful thing ? asked Dionysodorus.

Yes, I have, I replied, and many of them, Dionyso-
dorus.

Did you find them different from the beautiful,
he said, or the same as the beautiful ?

Here I was desperately perplexed, and felt that
I had my deserts for the grunt I had made: how-
ever, I replied that they were different from the
beautiful itself, though each of them had some
beauty present with it.

So if an ox is present with you, he said, you are an
ox, and since I am now present with you, you are
- Dionysodorus.

Heavens, do not say that ! I cried.

483

PLATO
a Ff 2 > > >
totro ye, Ww 8 eyd. "Ada tiva tpdmov, édn,
peat 4 | SRY
ETEPOUV ETEPW TApayevomévov TO ETEpov ETEpov GV
” s ~ ” ~
cin; "Apa rtodro, édynv eyed, dmopeis; dn Se
a > P) a A , > , a
Toiv avdpoiy thy aodiay eémexetpovv pupetoba,
Ld > ~ a ~ ~
are émiOupav abrijs. lds yap od« anopa, édn,
‘ > A 4 e
Kal eyw Kat ot aAdow dmavres avOpwror, 6 p71)
” ,
eorw; Ti Eyes, Fv 8 ey, & Avcovvaddwpe; od
\ ‘
70 Kadov Kaddv ott Kal Td aicypov aicypov; "Eav
” ” ~ ~ a
euorye, edn, Sox. Odxodv Soxet; Taw ye,
” ~
€dyn. Odxody kai 7d tabrov tadrov Kal TO Erepov
oe
Erepov; ov yap dimou Td ye Erepov Tavrov, GAN’
” 299 =O" a ” ~ > ~ e. >
eywye ovd' av maida wunv Tobro amophaat, ws od
‘ @
TO €Tepov erepov eotw. GAd’, & Avovvaddwpe,
TOUTO MeV ExwY TapHKas, émel TA GAAa por SoKetre
id Ly / ov / >
wamTep ot Snutoupyoi, ols Exacta mpoorjKer ar-
epyalecbar, Kai dyes TO SiaddyecBar mayKkdAws
>
amepyalecbar. Olcba odv, edn, 6 Te mpoojKe
exdoTos TOV SnurovyOv; mp@rov tiva yaAKevew
mpoonker, olcba; “Eywye: dre yadkéa. Ti de
Kepaevew; Kepayéa. Ti dé oddrrew te Kal
> / ‘ \ \ , , 4
exdépew Kal TA opiKpa Kpéa KaTakopayra eew
Kal ontav; Mayewpov, qv S eyw. Odxodv édv
” NY OE s > f) a , :
tis, €byn, TA TMpoorjkovta mpadtTn, opas mpage;
484

EUTHYDEMUS

But in what way can one thing, by having a differ-
ent thing present with it, be itself different ?

Are you at a loss there? I asked: already I was
attempting to imitate the cleverness of these men,
I was so eager to get it.

Can I help being at a loss, he said, I and likewise
everybody else in the world, in face of what cannot
be ?

What is that you say, Dionysodorus? I asked:
is not the beautiful beautiful, and the ugly ugly ?

Yes, if it seems so to me, he replied.

Then does it seem so ?

Certainly, he said.

Then the same also is the same, and the different
different? For I presume the different cannot be
the same; nay, I thought not even a child would
doubt that the different is different. But, Dionyso-
dorus, you have deliberately passed over this one
point ; though, on the whole, I feel that, like crafts-
men finishing off each his special piece of work,
= two are carrying out your disputation in excellent
style.

Well, he asked, do you know what is ‘each
craftsman’s special piece of work? First of all,
whose proper task is it to forge brass? Can you
tell ?

I can: a brazier’s.

Well, again, whose to make pots ?

A potter’s.

Once more, whose to slaughter and skin, and after
cutting up the joints to stew and roast ?

A caterer’s, I said.

Now, if one does one’s proper work, he said, one
will do rightly ?

485

302

PLATO

MdAtora. Tpoorjker 3 ye, cis drs, Tov pudyetpov
Katakonrew Kai exdépew; apoddynoas tadra 7
ov; ‘Quoddynoa, ednv, GAAd ovyyvdpny pot
exe. AfAov toivuv, 7 8 ds, dtu av tis oddéas
TOV pdyeipov Kal KataKoras én t onTy

pdtyeup L Katakoyas épjon Kal ontHon,
Ta TpoonKOVTA ToWmoeL’ Kal eav TOV yxadKéa TIS
abrov xadkedn Kal Tov Kepapéea Kepapedn, Kal
obTos TA mpoonKovTa mpage.

*Q IIdcedov, Fv 8 ey, 75n Kododdva émitibyns
Th oodia. dpa pot mote avrn mapayevycerat,
@ > , 4, > , nn > /
wate por oikeia yevéobar; "Emvyvoins av adriy,
® LaxKpates, €py, oikelav yevouevnv; *Eav ov ye
BovAn, ednv eyed, SHAov 6rt.. Ti dé, 4 8 ds, ra

~ ww 7 > , \ » , 7
cavuTod ole yryypwoxew; Ei pay te od aAdo A€yets-
amo aod yap Set dpyeoOa, reAevTav 5° cis Eddu-
Synpov tovde. “Ap” odv, edn, tadra yet oa
elvar, dv av apéns Kal ef cou adtois xpioba 6
tt dv BovAn; olov Bods Kat mpdBarov, dp’ dy —
e aA ~ ‘ t a > , A > 5 ld 6. ,
Hyoto tadra od elvar, d oor eEein Kat aroddcbat
Kal dodvai Kal Picat dtw BovAoww Gedy; aS av

A A mw > , > 7 no ‘ Ld > j
Ha} ovTws Exn, Ov od; Kayo, Hdn yap dtu e
av’t@v Kaddv te avaxtioitro Tay éepwrnudrwr,
Kal dpa BovAduevos 6 Tu TaxLoT axodoat, Ilavy

Y > ” 4 ” A ~ >? ‘ ,
ev odv, ednv, ovTws exer: Ta Tovabra €or pova

1 The Greek words follow a usual form of prayer or hymn —
to the gods. '

486

EUTHYDEMUS

Yes, to be sure.

And is it, as you say, the caterer’s proper work to
cut up and skin? Did you admit this or not?

I did so, I replied, but pray forgive me.

It is clear then, he proceeded, that if someone
slaughters the caterer and cuts him up, and then stews
or roasts him, he will be doing his proper work ; and if
he hammers the brazier himself, and moulds the
potter, he will be doing his business likewise.

Poseidon! I exclaimed, there you give the finishing-
touch to your wisdom. I wonder if this skill could
ever come to me in such manner as to be my very
own.

Would you recognize it, Socrates, he asked, if it
came to be your own ?

Yes, if only you are agreeable, I replied, without
a doubt.

Why, he went on, do you imagine you perceive
what is yours ?

Yes, if I take your meaning aright: for all my
hopes arise from you, and end in Euthydemus
here.

Then tell me, he asked, do you count those things
yours which you control and are free to use as you
please? For instance, an ox or a sheep,—would
you count these as yours, if you were free to sell or
bestow them, or sacrifice them to any god you chose ?
And things which you could not treat thus are not
yours ?

Hereupon, since I knew that some brilliant result
was sure to bob up from the mere turn of the
questions, and as I also wanted to hear it as quickly
as possible, I said: It is precisely as you say; only
such things are mine.

487

D

PLATO

> Ds A ~ a
eua. Ti d€; laa, &dn, od tadra Kadeis, a av
\ ww € a) = ~
pox exns Nai, epny. Opodoyets otv Tav
Cawv Tatra pova eivat od, mrept & av aor e€ovoia
7} TavTa TadTa. Toveiv, a viv 51) ey EAeyov; “Opo-
~ ‘ id ~
Aoy@. Kal 6s, elpwviKds mavu emioyav ws TL
/ 4, > /, ” > 4
péya oKotrovpevos, Eiré pow, pn, © UwKpares,
” ~
€ott oor Leds matp@os; Kai eyd vmomrevoas
id
ngew tov Adyov Hrep éreAcUTnoEVv, amopdv Twa
4 ” / \ > / ” oe
otpogiy edevydv te Kal eorpedduny dn worrep
> 4, > / > ” > > / >
ev diuxtd@ eiAnupéevos: Od« eorw, Fv 8 eyw, @
Atvovvaddwpe. Tadaimwpos dpa tis ot ye avOpw-
‘ 99. 2 a on , ‘ af
mos ef kat ovd¢ “APnvaios, & pire Deot matpmot
> , c \ / A \ ‘ \ 3 /
clot pajre Lepa jr aAAo pndev Kadov Kat ayabov.
“Ea, jv 8 éya, & Avovvaddwpe, edpnper TE Kal HH
xarerrds pe mpodidaoxe. €oTt yap éuouye Kal
Bwpot Kal iepa oixeia Kat matp@a Kai Ta adda
a a »” > / ~ ,
doamep Tois dAAos *ABnvaiois trav TovovTwr.
Kira rots dAdo, &bn, "APnvaiors odk éatt Zevds 6
a ’
natp@os; OvdK corw, fv 8 eyw, abrn 7 emwvupia
sf) f 7 35 / 50? @ > ~ Ps) ~ 5X
wvwv oddevi, of door ex Thode THs moAEews

> a > > /
amwkiopevo. eialy ov8? wiv, adda *“AmdAAwv

matp@os 8a Hv Tod “Iwvos yeveow: Leds F
juiv matp@os pev od Kadetrat, Epxeos Sé Kai
Pparpws, kat “A@nvaiat _ Ppatpia. "AM’ dpKet
ye, eb 6 Avovvaddurpos. éort yap cow, ws couKev,
*"AmoAAwy te Kat Zeds Kai ’AOnva. lav, jv &

1 *A@nvala Cobet: ’A@nva mss.

1 Zeus was the ancestral or tutelary god of the Dorians.
2 Cf. Eurip. Jon, 64-75. Apollo begot Ion upon Creusa,
daughter of Erechtheus.

488

<< ss),

SS A ae

Ss ae

“a

Ge 2 vv

—

ein

LR) SI POS ALS

fg

EUTHYDEMUS

Well now, he went on; you call those things
animals which have life ?

Yes, I said.

And you admit that only those animals are yours
which you are at liberty to deal with in those various
ways that I mentioned just now ?

I admit that.

Then—after a very ironical pause, as though he
were pondering some great matter—he proceeded :
Tell me, Socrates, have you an ancestral Zeus 1?

Here I suspected the discussion was approaching
the point at which it eventually ended, and so I
tried what desperate wriggle I could to escape
from the net in which I now felt myself entangled.
My answer was: I have not, Dionysodorus.

What a miserable fellow you must be, he said,
and no Athenian at all, if you have neither ancestral
gods, nor shrines, nor anything else that denotes a
gentleman !

Enough, Dionysodorus; speak fair words, and
don’t browbeat your pupil! For I have altars and
shrines, domestic and ancestral, and everything else
of the sort that other Athenians have.

Then have not other Athenians, he asked, their
ancestral Zeus ?

None of the Ionians, I replied, give him this title,
neither we nor those who have left this city to
settle abroad: they have an. ancestral Apollo,
because of Ion’s parentage.2, Among us the name
“ ancestral ” is not given to Zeus, but that of “ house-
ward ” and “ tribal,” and we have a tribal Athena.

That will do, said Dionysodorus ; you have, it
seems, Apollo and Zeus and Athena.

Certainly, I said.

489

303

PLATO

eyo. Odxoiv kai odro. ool Oeoi av elev; dy.
Ilpdyovor, Hv 8° éyw, cal Seomdtar. AA ody aot
ye, €fn: 7) 0d aovs wpoddynkas adrovs elvat;
‘QO Ao »” , ‘ , > ~ ”

pordgynka, edynv: ti yap 7a40w; Odxodv, edn,

‘ af > e , e / ,
Kat (@d eiow obror of Beoi; dpodAdynkas yap,
Cd A ” ~ ” a e ‘ >
doa wuxnv exer, CHa elvar. 7 obror ot Beoi odK
” / ” 8° > fi. > ~
Exovor wuy7jv; “Eyovow, qv 8 eéyw: Odxodv
Kat Cdd eiow; Z6a, conv. Tdv 8é ye Caiwv, eon,
dpohdynkas tatr” eivar od, doa av cou ih Kal
Sobvat Kai arrodda8at Kat Oicat av Bed tw av BovrAy.
¢ Ad ” > ” / > 4 >
Quoddynka, edyv. odK EoTt ydp pot avddvats, @
Evdvdnue. "10. 87 por edOds, 7% 8 Gs, eine
> A ‘ ¢ a 4 , A A
evet07) Gov opodoyets elvar tov Aia Kal tods
dAXovs Oeovs, dpa e€eoti cot adrods amodocbar
7) Sodvat 7) GAN’ 6 te Gv BovAn ypHobat womep Tots
” ; ee, \ > > y Lo
dArous Caos; eyd pev odv, @ Kpitwv, womep

‘ e A ~ / > / EA e
mAnyels td Tod Adyou, exeinv adwvos: oO de
Kryjourmdes pow idav ws BonPyowv, Uvarat
“HpdkAes, €fn, kadot Adyov. Kai 6 Avovvaddwpos,
Ildrepov odv, edn, 6 ‘HpaxaAjs mummaé eorw 7
6 mummaé ‘HpakdAjs; Kat 6 Kriourmos, *Q Ile-
” ~ 4 > 47 > /

cedov, edn, Sewdv Adywv: adiotrapay apayw
TW avope.

B ’EvraiOa pévra, & dire Kpitwv, oddeis dotis

~ ‘
ov TOV TapdvTwv drepemivece Tov Adyov Kal TW
~ ~ ,
avdpe, Kat yeA@vres Kal Kpotobvres Kal yaipovrTes*
a“ ”
dAiyou mapetdbnoav. emi pev yap Tots éumpo-

1 yedXGvres . . . Kporobvres . . . xalpovres Badham: yeAavre
+ + » KporouUvte , . . xalpovTe MSS,

490

ity

fh Fee

©

——

in! ae on ee, A ee ee

EUTHYDEMUS

Then these must be your gods? he said.

My ancestors, I said, and lords.

Well, at least, you have them, he said: or have
you not admitted they are yours?

I have admitted it, I replied: what else could
I do?

And are not these gods animals? he asked:
you know you have admitted that whatever has life
is an animal. Or have these gods no life ?

They have, I replied.

Then are they not animals ?

Yes, animals, I said.

And those animals, he went on, you have admitted
to be yours, which you are free to bestow and sell
and sacrifice to any god you please.

I have admitted it, I replied ; there is no escape
for me, Euthydemus.

Come then, tell me straight off, he said; since
you admit that Zeus and the other gods are yours,
are you free to sell or bestow them or treat them
just as you please, like the other animals ?

Well, Crito, here I must say I was knocked out,
as it were, by the argument, and lay speechless ;
then Ctesippus rushed to the rescue and—Bravo,
Hercules! he cried, a fine argument !

Whereat Dionysodorus asked : Now, do you mean
that Hercules is a bravo, or that bravo is Hercules? ©

Ctesippus replied: Poseidon, what a frightful use
of words! I give up the fight: these two are
invincible.

Hereupon I confess, my dear Crito, that every-
one present without exception wildly applauded the
argument and the two men, till they all nearly died
of laughing and clapping and rejoicing. For their

491

PLATO

obev ep’ EKaOTOLS mot mayKddus eBopvBovv pdvou
of Tob Ev6vdq.0v épaotai, evratla dé odiyou Kal
oi Kloves of ev T@ AvKeiw eBopvBnody T emt Tow
av8poiv Kat jobycar. eya pev ovv Kal adros
ovtw deTeOny, wore opuodoyeiv pdévas mesmore
avOpubmrous ieiv ovrw codous, kat mavrdmace
karadoviwbels bo THs cogias avroty emi TO
errawveiy Te Kal eynccnued lew adtw éTpamouny, Kat
elmov: *Q paKdpiow ode Tis, Davpaoris pvoews,
ol Tooobrov mpaypa ovr Taxd kat ev odiyep xpovw
efeipyacbov. moAAa pev obtv Kat GAda ot Adyou
bpav Kana € Exovow, & Ev0vdqué te kat Avovyad-
Super ev 5€ Tois Kal TotTo Heyadompenéorepoy,
Ort TOV moh\aiv avO perry kal Tav cepvav 51) Kal
SoxodvTa Th elvaw ovdev bpiy péhev, adda TeV
opotwv tpuiv povov. eyw yap €d olda, dtt TovTOUS
tovs Adyous avy pev av dAlyor ayar@ev avOpwrot
Gpotot dpiv, of 8’ GAXow ovTW voovow abtovs, WoT’
<b old” bru aioyvvOeiev dv paddrov e&eAéyxovtes
Tovovto.s Adyos Tovs aAXovs 7 adTol eEeAeyxYopmevot.
Kal Tdde ad Erepov Snuotikdv te Kal mpGov ev
tois Adyous* omdTav pire pyre Kadov elvat pndev
pnre ayabov mpayy.a pare Aeuxov pnd? dAAo TOV
TOLOUTWY [LN ev, pide TO Tapd7av repo ETEpov,
arexvOs ev T@ Ovte Evppamrete TA oTOpaTa THY
avOpwrwr, womep Kal dare: dtu 8 od podvov Ta
T&v dAAwv, adda dd€aite dv Kal Ta bueTepa adrad,
TobTo mavu xapiev Té eoTe Kal TO emaxbes TV Ad-
yew dpatpetrar. 70 de 5) péyorov, dre Tabra
ovTWws EXEL bpiy Kal TexviK@s efevpyntat, w Wore | Tavu
oAXiyw xpovw dvtwobv av pabeiy avOpwmwv, Eyvwv

492

EUTHYDEMUS

previous successes had been highly acclaimed one
by one, but only by the devotees of Euthydemus ;
whereas now almost the very pillars of the Lyceum
took part in the joyful acclamations in honour of
the pair. For myself, I was quite disposed to
admit that never had I set eyes on such clever
people, and I was so utterly enthralled by their
skill that I betook myself to praising and congratulat-
ing them, and said: Ah, happy pair! What amazing
genius, to acquire such a great accomplishment so
| quickly and in so short a time! Among the many
| fime points in your arguments, Euthydemus and
Dionysodorus, there is one that stands out in

icular magnificence—that you care not a jot
for the multitude, or for any would-be important or
famous people, but only for those of your own sort.
And I am perfectly sure that there are but a few
persons like yourselves who would be satisfied with
these arguments: the rest of the world regard them
only as arguments with which, I assure you, they
would feel it a greater disgrace to refute others
than to be refuted themselves. And further, there
is at the same time a popular and kindly feature in
your talk: when you say there is nothing either
beautiful, or good, or white, and so on, and no
difference of things at all, in truth you simply
stitch up men’s mouths, as you expressly say you
do; while as to your apparent power of stitching
up your own mouths as well, this is a piece of agree-
able manners that takes off any offence from your
talk. But the greatest thing of all is, that this
faculty of yours is such, and is so skilfully contrived,
that anyone in the world may learn it of you in a
very short time; this fact I perceived myself by

VOL. IV R 493

304

PLATO

” an ~
é€ywye kal T@ Kryoinmw tov vobv mpocéywy, ws
\ a lon ~ cal
TAXD dpas €K TOO Tapaxphya pyretobat olds T
a
ie Tobro pev obv Tod mpdyparos od@v impos pev
TO TAXD mrapadiddvat Kadov, é evavriov s avO perry
SiadéyecOar ovk emruTdELov, GAN’ av y’ euol mrei-
Onobe, evAaBrjceobe pa mov évaytiov Aéyew, o va
pq) Taxd expablorres piv [47) <iddou xdpw* adAa
pddvora pev avTw mpos anew poven diadéyeobou,
el de He}, elmep dou Tov evavTiov, é€xelvov povou,
ds av tuiv 88 dpydpiv. ta adra dé tabra,
3A ~ a a
€av owoporire, Kal tots wabnrais cvpBovdrevaere,
pndérote pndevi avOpadmwv diadéyecbar, adr 7
dpiv Te Kal adtois. TO yap omaviov, d Edvvdnpue,
Tiyuov' TO S€ Vdwp edwvdTaTov, apioTov ov, ws
éfy Ilivdapos. aAd’ ayere, Wy 8 eyw, Grws Kape
kal KAewiay rovde trapadééeabov.

Tatra, & Kpitwv, xai dAda Bpayéa Sdiare-
x0evres amjuev. oKdmer odv, Gmws ovpPoiTyoes
‘ 4. e > , ‘ o > /
Tapa TH avope, ws exeivw harov olw 7” elvas SiddEax
‘ 727 > > 7 / A a 4, 4 —?
tov €Oédovr’ apytpiov diddvar, kal odte pvaw ovl

e / > , > , a A \ ‘ aA
HAckiay e€eipyew ovdepuiav—é S€ Kai oot pdAvora
mpoonjker akodoa, Ott ovde Tod xpnuatilecBai
4 297 A > a e ~
datov Siaxwdvew oddév—p7) od mapadaetv ovrwobv
evrreT@s THY abeTépay codiar.
KPI. Kat pry, & LedxKpates, pidAyjKoos ev

” A e Pg wy 4 4
éywye Kal 7dé€ws av Te pavOdvoyn, Kwodvvevw.

/ > A t > Sa >? ¢ / E 30 ty cA
pévto. Kaya els evar TOV ody dpoiwy Eddvdjpw,
GAN’ éxeivwv, dv 87) Kai od Edeyes, TOV HOvov av
> / e ‘ ~ t4 4 ”~ >
eEcdeyyouevwv td Ta&v TowtTwv Adywv 7H &-
eXeyyovtwy. atap yeAoiov pév por Soxet elvat

494

{irae

sails

EUTHYDEMUS

watching Ctesippus and observing how quickly he
was able to imitate you on the spot. Now, in so
far as your accomplishment can be quickly imparted,
it is excellent ; but for public discussions it is not
suitable: if I may advise you, beware of talking
before a number of people, lest they learn the whole
thing in a trice and give you no credit for it. The
best thing for you is to talk to each other by your-
selves, in private; failing that, if a third person is
present, it must be someone who will pay you a
good fee. And if you are prudent you will give
this same counsel to your pupils also—that they
are never to converse with anybody except you
and each other. For it is the rare, Euthydemus,
that is precious, while water is cheapest, though
best, as Pindar! said. But come, I said, see if
er can admit both me and Cleinias here to your
class.

This, Crito, was our conversation, and after ex-
changing a few more words we went off. Now you
must arrange to join us in taking lessons from the
pair; for they say they are able to teach anyone
who is willing to pay good money, and that no sort
of character or age—and it is well that you especially
should be told that they promise that their art is
no hindrance to money-making—need deter anyone
from an easy acquisition of their wisdom.

cri. Indeed, Socrates, I love listening, and would
be glad to learn from them; but I am afraid I am
one of the sort who are not like Euthydemus, but
who, as you described them just now, would prefer
being refuted to refuting with such arguments.
Now, although I feel it is absurd to admonish you,

1 Cf. Pindar, Ol. i., which begins—Apicrov per vdwp.
495

i)

Gr

PLATO

‘ a Lid , cd > »” 217
To vovdeteiv ce, Guws dé, d y’ HKovov, ebélw cos
> a a $38) 8 ae Dre * 9
arayyetAar. tadv ad tudv amiovtrwv tof? Sri

mpoceAbuy tis por mepimaTobvTt, avip oldpevos
mavv elvar codds, TovTwy Tis TOV TeEpt TOds Adyous
tovs eis Ta Sixaoripia Sewdv, "Q Kpitrwvr, édy,

ovdev axpog Tavde THv coddv; Od pa tov Ala, iv

ae) 4 > A cg > A 4, e A
5° eye: od yap olds 7 } mpocotas Kataxovew t70d
~ + \ la ” »” / > > ~
Tob dxAov. Kai piv, én, aéidv y’ Hv axodca.

, , > > / @ Ld > ~
Ti dé; fv & eyo. “Iva jeovoas avipay dia-
Aeyouévwy, ot viv coddraroi eiot THv mept Tods

eK e-v}e “

, 4 > A , > , 2
towovTous Adyous. Kayw elrov, Ti obv édat-
vovTd oot; Ti dé dddo, 4 8 ds, H oldmep adel av

~ 4 > , tA ‘

Tis Ta&v Towt’Twy aKkotca AnpotvTwy Kal mepl

> 4 > , > re A , ¢

ovdevos afiwy avatiav orovdiy movoupevwy; od-
a >

Twol yap mws Kal ele Tots dvopac. Kal eye,

"Ada pevror, ednv, xapiev yé Te mpayyad eoTw

% diAdoocodia. Lloiov, edn, yapiev, & paxdpre;

‘ ‘ ~
obdevos prev odv afvov, aAAd Kat et vov Tapeyevou, —

mdvu av oe olua aicyvvOqvar tbarép tod ceavrod

c ’ MA Ld 27 c ‘ “

éraipov: ovTws Hv aromos, eOéAwy éavTov map-

L4 > / 294 / a ba) ,

éxew avOpuos, ols oddev were 6 Te av A€ywor,
\

mavTos 5€ pyyatos avréxovrat. Kal ovToL, dmEp

” ” > a , 1 ee ~ a
aptt €Aeyov, ev Tots Kparictois elot THv viv.

“~ ‘
adAa ydp, ® Kpitrwy, épn, To mpaypa adro Kal

‘ ~ , /
ot avOpwror ot emi TH mpdypatt SdvarpiBovtes

dabdrdoi eiot Kal KatayéAacro. euol dé, @

Lew«pates, TO Tpaypya €ddKer ovK plas ypéeyew
ov8’ obtos ovr et tis GAdos peyer- TO pevrot
496

EUTHYDEMUS

I wish nevertheless to report to you what was told
me just now. Do you know, one of the people who
had left your discussion came up to me as I was

a stroll—a man who thinks himself very
wise, one of those who are so clever at turning
out speeches for the law-courts —and said: Crito,
do you take no lessons from these wise men? No,
in truth, I replied: there was such a crowd that,
though I stood quite close, I was unable to catch
what was said. Well, let me tell you, he said, it
was something worth hearing. What was it? I
asked. You would have heard the disputation of
men who are the most accomplished of our day in
that kind of speaking. To this I replied: Well,
what did they show forth to you? Merely the sort
of stuff, he said, that you may hear such people
babbling about at any time—making an inconsequent
ado about matters of no consequence (in some such
parlance he expressed himself). Whereupon—Well,
all the same, I said, philosophy is a charming thing.
Charming is it, my dear innocent? he exclaimed :
nay, a thing of no consequence. Why, had you been in
that company just now, you would have been filled
with shame, I fancy, for your particular friend: he
was so strangely willing to lend himself to persons
who care not a straw what they say, but merely
fasten on any phrase that turns up. And these, as
I said just now, are the heads of their profession
to-day. But the fact is, Crito, he went on, the
business itself and the people who follow it are
worthless and ridiculous. Now, in my opinion,
Socrates, he was not right in decrying the pursuit ;
he is wrong, and so is anyone else who decries it :

1 The allusion is probably to Isocrates.
497

PLATO

eOdArew SiadréyecOar rovodtows évavtiov moAA@v
avOpwirwv opbds wor éddxer wéudhecOar.

za. 7Q Kpirwv, Oavpdowot eiow of rovodror
avdpes. arap ovmw olda 6 Te péedAdAw epetv.
TroTépwv jv 6 mpoceAOdy cou Kat peuddpevos THY
firocodiav; mdtepov T&v daywvricacba. Sewadv
ev Tois Suxacrypiows, pryTwp Tis, 7) TOV Tods ToLov-
Tous elomeumdvTwy, trots TOV Adywr, ols ot
ONTODES dywvilovrar ;

KPI. “Heora vi) tov Aia pirwp, obd€ oluat
manor avrov emi SucaornpLov dvaBeBnxevar: GAN’
eratew atdtov pact mepi Tod mpdyyatos vi TOV
Aia Kai dSewov elvar Kai dewods Adyous cuvTiHévac.

xa. "Hdn pavOdvw: epi tovtwy Kal adros
vov 51) €weAdov éyew. obTo yap «ior per, @
Kpitwv, ots éfn Lpddixos pcbdpia diAocddov
Te avdpos Kat moAiTiKod, olovrar 8 elvat mavTwv
copwtato. avOpmimwv, mpos S€ TO elvar Kal
Soxetv mavu mapa moAdois, woTe Tapa maow
-Bookysety eurrodw@v adiow elvar ovdévas aAdous
7) Tovs mept gdiAdccodiav avOpdrovs. yobvrat
obv, €av TovTous eis Sdéav KataoTHawer pndevos
Soxeiv akiovs elvar, dvaudioBynritws dn Tapa
mao. Ta vuentipta eis Sd€av olcecbar codias répt.
elvac pev yap TH GaAnbeia odds codwrarous, ev
Sé tots idtous Adyous Grav amodcPOGow, bd TOV
appt Evvdnpiov KoAovecban. copot d€ ayobvrat
elvas mavu cixTws” peTpiws ev yap prrocodias
éyew, petpiws S€ mohitiucdv, mdvy €€ eixdros

498

EUTHYDEMUS

though I must say I felt he was right in blaming
the readiness to engage in discussion with such
people before a large company.

soc. Crito, these people are very odd. But I
do not yet know what answer I shall give you. Of
which party was he who came up to you and blamed
philosophy? Was he one of those who excel in
the contests of the courts, an orator; or of those
who equip the orators for the fray, a composer of
the speeches they deliver in their contests ?

cri. Nothing of an orator, I dare swear, nor do I
think he has ever appeared in court: only he is
reputed to know about the business, so they declare,
and to be a clever person, and compose clever
speeches. ;

soc. Now I understand: it was of these people
that I was just now going to speak myself. They
are the persons, Crito, whom Prodicus described as
the border-ground between philosopher and _politi-
cian, yet they fancy that they are the wisest of all
mankind, and that they not merely are but are
thought so by a great many people ; and accordingly
they feel that none but the followers of philosophy
stand in the way of their universal renown. Hence
they believe that, if they can reduce the latter
to a status of no esteem, the prize of victory will by
common consent be awarded to them, without dis-
pute or delay, and their claim to wisdom will be won.
For they consider themselves to be in very truth the
wisest, but find that, when caught in private conversa-
tion, they are cut off short by Euthydemus and his
set. This conceit of their wisdom is very natural,
since they regard themselves as moderately versed
in philosophy, and moderately too in politics, on

499

PLATO

E Adyou: peréxyew yap apdorépwv Soov der, exros

£06

de ” A 5 7 \ > 7 ~ \
€ ovtes Kwdvvwv Kal aydvwv Kaproto8a. tiv
oodiav.
KPI. Ti odv; Soxodci cor ti, ® Lwd«pares,
A /, J > / LAX’ ¢ A Fs, ” \ e)
éyew; od ydp To GAN’ 6 ye Adyos Eyer TWA Ev-
mpéeTevav TOV avopav.
\ he > ,
xa. Kat yap exes ovtws, & Kpitwv, edapéemerav
-~ “ > / > ‘ ev > \
pGANov 7 aAjfevav. od yap pddiov adrovs
A oe ‘ * \ 4 &
metoat, OTe Kal avOpwro Kal TaAAa mavTa, boa
peta€d Twoiv dvoiv eotl Kal audorépow ruyydver
peTéxovTa, doa pev ek KaKkod Kal ayalod, rob
A 4 ~ A Ul / Lid \ >
pev BeAtiw, Tod Se yelpw yiyverars Goa Se Ex
a a ~ ,
Svoty ayaboivy pa mpos tadrov, audoiv xeipw,
\ “A ” ¢ / A >? / > ey
mpos O av éKdTepov % xpnoTov exeivwv, e€ av
avveTteOn daa S€ ex Svoiv Kakoivy ovvrebevra
fq) Mpos TO avTO GvTOW ev TH peow e€oTi, Tabra
, , € , piel eon C Sith | ,
poova BeAtiw Exarépov exeivwv eoTiv, dv appoTéepwv
7, / > A > ¢ tA /
p€pos ueréxovow. «i pev ovv diAocodia
~ ‘
ayabov éort Kal 7 moAtTiKt mpakts, mpos aAdo
>
d€ éxatépa, otro. 8 apudotépwv perexovres
tA > / > 7 399A , > /
ToUTwy ev pwéow eiciv, oddev A€yovow apdoTépwv
, > 3 t > eee 06 \ ,
yap «iow davddtepor- et Sé€ ayalov Kai Kakov,
an \ , ~ A ‘ > A ‘
Tt@v pev BedAtiovs, tav Sé xelpouss «i Sé KaKa
”
duddotepa, ovTws av tu A€yorey aAnbés, dAdAws
> > ~ > ”“ > > \ e
S ovdapds. odK av ody olwat adrods dpuodo-
~ ‘
yoa ovre Kak atta apdotépw elvar ovre TO
pev KaKkov, TO dé ayabdv: adAad TH dvte ovbToL
> , 4 aA
dpdhotépwv peTéxovtes appoTépwv yrrovs Etat
500

2 EUTHYDEMUS
quite reasonable grounds: for they have dipped
into both as far as they needed, and, evading all
risk and struggle, are content to gather the fruits
of wisdom.

cri. Well, now, do you consider, Socrates, that
there is anything in what they say? It is not to
be denied that these men have some colour for their
statements.

soc. Yes, that is so, Crito; colour rather than
truth. It is no easy matter to persuade them that
either people or things, which are between two
other things and have a certain share of both, if
compounded of bad and good are found to be better
than the one and worse than the other; but if
compounded of two good things which have not the
same object, they are worse than either of their
components in relation to the object to which each
of them is adapted; while if they are compounded
of two bad things which have not the same object,
and stand between them, this is the only case
where they are better than either of the two things
of which they have a share. Now if philosophy
and the statesman’s business are both good things,
and each of them has a different object, and if these
persons, partaking of both, are between them, their
claims are nought; for they are inferior to both:
if one is good and the other bad, they are better
than the one and worse than the other: while if
both are bad, in this case there would be some truth
in their statement, but in any other case there is
none. Now I do not think they will admit either
that both these things are bad, or that one is bad and
the other good: the truth is that these people,
partaking of both, are inferior to both in respect of

VOL. IV R2 501

307

PLATO

4 e 4 ‘ a @ | \ $ .ué tr
mpos éxdtepov, mpos O 7% TE moATLK?) Kal 7 dido-
Ld Ce od , > / 4 , + ~
aodia dfiw Adyou éordv, Kal TpiToL OvTES TH
dAnfeia Cyntrodor mpa@ro. Soxeiy elvar. ovyye-
a ~ ‘
yraoKkew pev ody avtois xp7 THS emOvpias Kat
Ha) xaAeraivew, ayyetoOa pevror Tovovrous elvat
> ~ o
oloi «iow: mavtTa yap avdpa xpi ayamav, ootis
Kat otiwdv Ayer éxdpevov Ppovncews mpaypya
Kal avdpeiws emeEwv Suarrovetrac.
‘ / > / ‘ 3: -% ‘
KPI. Kai piv, &@ LwKpates, Kat avros epi
TOV viewy, WoTep del mpds oe Aé€yw, &Y amopia
eit, TL Set adrots ypyjoacba. 6 pev obv vew-
ww ‘ / > /, > wy
TeEpos €TL Kal opixpds éatt, KpirdBovdos 8 757
a >
HAukiay €xeu Kal Seirai twos, dots avrov oviceL.
eyw pev odv Otay ool ~vyyevwpa, ovtw dia-
TiWewar, wore pot Soxeiv paviay elvac TO eveka
~ / ” 4 ~ ‘ ,
tav Taidwy ddAAwy pev toAAdv orovdny Tovadryy
eoxnkévar, Kal mepi Tod yduov, Omws eK yev-
vatoTaTyns €oovTar nTpos, Kal TEpl THY xpnudTwr,
émws ws mAovowsTaTor, adta@v S€ mepl madelas
dpeAjoo orav 5é cis Twa amoPrdbw tdv dpa-
oKovTwy av taidedca avOpetous, exménAnypat,
Kal pot Soke’ eis Exaotos abta@v oKotobvTe mévu
> / a ‘ A > ~ 7 A
aAAdKotos elvar, ws ye mpos o€ TaAnOA <ipjoba-
woTe ovK exw Omws mpoTpémw TO pLelpakKov
> \ /
emi diAocodiav.
za. "QO dire Kpirwv, odk ofoba, ort ev ravri
> , ¢ A ~)\ ‘ \ > ‘
enitndevpatt of pev dadAor modAoi Kai oddevds
LA e 4 a x\7 ‘ A +
ator, ot S€ omovdator dXlyo. Kal mavTds a&vo1;
emel yupvaotiKn o8 KaAdov Soke? cou elvar, Kai
‘
XpynpatioTiKy Kal pyTopiK?) Kal oTpaTnyia;

502

EUTHYDEMUS

the objects for which statesmanship and philosophy
are important; and while they are really in the
third place they seek to be accorded the first. How-
ever, we ought to be indulgent towards their
ambition and not feel annoyed, while still judging
them to be what they actually are. For we should
be glad of anyone, whoever he may be, who says
anything that verges on good sense, and labours
steadily and manfully in its pursuit.

crt. Now I myself, Socrates, as 1 so often tell
you, am in doubt about my sons, as to what I am to
do with them. The younger is as yet quite small ;
but Critobulus is already grown up, and needs
someone who will be of service to him. When I
am in your company, the effect on me is such as
to make me feel it is mere madness to have taken
ever so much pains in various directions for the good
of my children—first in so marrying that they
should be of very good blood on their mother’s side ;
then in making money so that they might be as
well off as possible; while I have neglected the
training of the boys themselves. But when I
glance at one of the persons who profess to educate
people, I am dismayed, and feel that each one of
them, when I consider them, is wholly unsuitable—
to tell you the truth between ourselves. So that I
cannot see how I am to incline the lad towards
philosophy.

soc. My dear Crito are you not aware that in
every trade the duffers are many and worthless,
whereas the good workers are few and worth any
price? Why, do you not hold athletics, and money-
making, and rhetoric, and generalship, to be fine
things ?

503

PLATO

»” , Yo
KPI. "Eyouye mdvtws Sdijzov.
B 20. Ti odv & éxdorn TovTwv tods ToAXovs
mpos ExaaTov TO Epyov od KatayeAdorous Spas;
KPI. Nat pa tov Aia, Kat pada adAnOA Aéyers.
> = 4 7 BBS 7,
sa. "H otv tovrov e&vexa adtos te devéer
~ a >
mdvrTa TA emiTnodevpaTa Kal TH viel ovK emiTperpets ;
4 , /, > ,
KPI. Ovdxovy dixadv ye, & Ud«pares.
A , id > \ , > ,
xa. My toivuey 6 ye od xpi mote, & Kpitwr,
> >. 28 , A > , / >
adn’ édoas xalpew Tods éemirndevovtas dirogodiav,
C etre xpnoroi ciow cite movnpol, adto TO mpaypa
Bacavioas Kadds te kal ed, dav pev cor daivnra
dadAov ov, mavr’ dvdpa damdtpere, pun) ovov Tods
cia 3A A / b A > A
viets: é€av de daivntar olov oiwar adro eyd elvar,
Yappav diwKe Kal doxer, Td Aeydpwevov 5) TobTo
avTos TE Kal TA TraLdia.

504

EUTHYDEMUS

ert. Certainly I do, of course.

soc. Well then, in each of these, do you not see
most men making a ridiculous show at their respective
tasks ?

cri. Yes, I know: what you say is perfectly true.

soc. Then will you yourself on this account eschew
all these pursuits, and not let your son have anything
to do with them ?

cri. No, there would be no good reason for that,
Socrates.

soc. Then avoid at least what is wrong, Crito:
let those who practise philosophy have their way,
whether they are helpful or mischievous ; and when
you have tested the matter itself, well and truly,
if you find it to be a poor affair, turn everyone
you can away from it, not only your sons: but if
you find it to be such as I think it is, pursue and
ply it without fear, both you, as they say, and yours.

505

INDEX OF NAMES

Abdera, birthplace of Protagoras, 95

Achilles, 187

Acumenus, father of Eryximachus,
physician, 113

Adeimantus, (1) son of Cepis; (2)
Athenian admiral, son of Leu-
colophidas, 115

Aeneas, 47

Aeschylus, Athenian dramatist
(c. 525-456 B.c.), Septem, 449 n.

Appoee Attic deme or district,

n.

Agathocles, Athenian
teacher, 119 n.

Agathon, Athenian dramatist (c.
447-400 B.c.), 115

Alcibiades (c. 450-404 B.c.), 89-91,
115 ff. ; the younger, cousin of
Cleinias, 391 ;

Aleuadae, princes of. Larisa in
Thessaly, 265

Alexidemus of Thessaly, father of
Meno, 287

Andron, son of Androtion, 113

Anthemion, a tanner, father of
Anytus, 335

Antimoerus of Mende (in the
Chalcidic peninsula Pallene),

music-

113

Antisthenes (c. 444-365 B.c.), dis-
ciple of Socrates and founder of
the Cynic philosophy, 431 n.

Anytus, son of Anthemion, tanner
and democrat, accuser of So-
crates, 262, 335

Apollo, 197, 427 n., 477 n., 489

Apollodorus, father of Hippocrates
and Phason, 97, 117

Ariphron, brother of Pericles, 127

Aristeides, ‘‘the Just,” Athenian
statesman (c. 530-468 B.c.), 3, 9,
349

506

Aristippus, prince of Larisa in
Thessaly, friend of Meno, 265

Athena, 133, 489

Axiochus, son of Alcibiades and
father of Cleinias, 379, 391

Bias of Priene (near Miletus),
lonian sage, 197

Briareus, a hundred-armed giant,
478 n.

Callaeschrus, father of Critias, 115

Callias, wealthy patron of sophists,
89-91, 111 ff. :

Carian slave, 35 n., 427 n.

Cepis, father of Adeimantus, 115

Chaeredemus, father of Patrocles
the half-brother of Socrates,
471

Charmides, son of Glaucon and
maternal uncle of Plato, 113

Chilon of Sparta, a sage, 197

Chios, Greek island off the coast
of Asia Minor, 381, 437

Cleinias, (1) father of Alcibiades,
95; (2) younger brother of Alci-
biades, 127; (3) son of Axiochus,
88.

5
Cleobulus of Lindus in Rhodes, a
sage of the time of Solon, 197
Cleophantus, son of Themistocles,
347

Colchis, on the east of the Black
Sea, native land of Medea, 427

‘Connus, son of Metrobius, a harper,

883, 463

Corinthus, mythical founder of
Corinth, 453 n.

Criso of Himera in Sicily, a runner,

175
Critias (c. 455-404 B.c.), son of
Callaeschrus and pupil of So-

ee

EO ee PEE

kates aw

INDEX

—- oligarch, 90,
crite’ wealthy Athenian and de-
voted disciple of Socrates, 876 ff.
Cunalon en ctOne, 379, 502
Crommyonian sow, 67 n.
Ctesippus, of Paeania in Attica,
385, 389 ff.

Daedalus, legendary inventor of
sculpture, 361

Damon, Athenian musician and
sophist, friend of Pericles, 13,

71, 79
—_ battle at (424 B.c.), 15n.,
41 n.

Dionysodorus, sophist of Chios
as 4 Thurii, brother of Euthy-
demus, 379 ff.

or Heavenly Twins
——_ Pollux, sons of Zeus),

Dorian mode in music, 39 n., 57
Dorians, 489 n.
Em
ee net veces
285 pn.
Epimetheus, brother of Prome-
theus, 129 ff., 257

us, son of Acumenus,

f Acragas in Sicily,
(ce. 475-415 B.c.),

batus, n.
Euthydemus, sopliset of Chios and
Mavis brother of Dionysodorus,
9 ff.

Geryon, a three-headed and six-
armed giant, 479 n.

Glaucon, = a, father of Plato's
mother, 11

Gorgias, of. * eontini in ers
sophist (c. 490-395 B.c.), 265
285 n., 353, 357

Hephaestus, god of fire, 133

Hercules, 469, 491

Hermes, 135

Herodicus, of Selymbria in Thrace
(north of the Propontis), trainer
and physician, 117

Herodotus (c. 484-408 B.c.—ix.

61-2), 49
Hesiog: 117, 189 n.

Hippias, of Elis, sophist, 89, 90,
113 ff., 179 n.

Hippocrates, of Cos, physician
(c. 460-380 B.c.), 99

Hippocrates, son of Apollodorus,
ed friend of Socrates, 89,
121

ae: father of Callias, 99,
113, 115

Homer, 117; (Jl. viii. 107-8) 47;
(x. 224) 215; (xxi. 305) 187; (xxiv.
348) 93; (Od: iv. Kor (456)
ae > (x. 494) > (i. 582)
114; (601) 113; evil 347) 81

Iccus of Tarentum, athlete and
trainer, 117 n.

Iolaus, son of Iphicles and nephew
of Hercules, 471

Ion, son of Apollo and Creusa,
489 n.

Tonian mode in music, 39 n.

Tonians, 489

Tphicles, half-brother of Hercules,
471

Ismenias,

democrat of Thebes,
n.

Isocrates, Athenian rhetorician
(436-338 B c.), 376, 497 n.

Laches, ee general (d. 418
B.c.), 3

Larisa, rico on the Peneus in
Thessaly, 265

Lenaeum, Athenian dramatic festi-
val, 149 n.

Leucolophidas, father of Adeiman-
tus, 115

Lyceum, gymnasium dedicated to
Apollo Lyceus, in an eastern
suburb of Athens, 379, 385 n.

Lydian mode in music, 39 n.

Lysimachus, son of Aristeides, 8,
4 ff., 349

orem satyr flayed by Apollo,

Medea, sorceress and wife of Jason,
427

Melesias, 3

Menelaus, king of S 439

Meno, son of Alexidemus of Thes-

saly, 263
Metrobius, father of Connus, 383
Musaeus, early bard, 117
507

INDEX

Myson of Chen (? in Laconia), a
sage, 197

Nicias, Athenian general (c. 475-
413 B.c.), 3, 4 ff.

Oenoé, Attic deme or district near
the Boeotian border, 97

Orpheus, legendary bard, 113, 117

oe of Thebes, flute-player,

Paeania, in Attica, on the east side
of Hymettus, 385

Paralus, son of Pericles and half-
brother of Callias, 118, 151, 349

Patrocles, half-brother (on the
mother’s side) of Socrates, 471

Pausanias, of Cerames (Attic deme),
115

Pericles (c. 490-429 B.c.), 3, 127,
158, 849; sons of, 113, 349

Persephone, 301

Persians, 49

Phaedrus, of Myrrhinous (Attic
deme), friend of Plato, 113

Phason, brother of Hippocrates,

97

Pheidias, Athenian sculptor (¢. 490-
482 B.c.), 101, 341

Pherecrates, Athenian comic drama-
tist(c. 460-390 B.c.), 149

Philippides, son of Philomelus, 113

Philomelus, father of Philippides,
113

Phrygian mode in music, 39 n.

Phrynondas, a rogue, 149 n.

Pindar, of Boeotia, lyric poet (c.
520-440 B.c.), 285, 801, 453 n.,
495 n.

Pittacus, Ionian sage and ruler of
Mytilene in Lesbos (c. 630 B.c.),
90, 185 n., 197

Plataea, battle at (479 B.c.), 47-8

Polycleitus, of Argos, sculptor (c.
480-412 B.c.), 101; sons of, 151

Polycrates, tyrant of Samos (¢. 530
B.C.), 385

Poseidon, god of the sea and of
horses, 487, 491

Prodieus, of Ceos, sophist, 71, 80,
90, 115 f., 179 n., 357, 499

Prometheus, son of the Titan
Tapetus, 129 f., 257

Protagoras, of Abdera on the south
coast of Thrace, sophist (c. 490-
415 B.c.), 86 ff, 341, 431 n.

Proteus, wizard of the sea, 487 n.

Pythocleides, of Ceos, music-
teacher, 119 n.

Satyrus, slave of Hippocrates, 97
Scamander, river-god in the Troad,

187
Scopas, Thessalian prince, 185
Scythians, 47, 479
Simois, river-god in the Troad, 187
Simonides, of Ceos, lyric poet (556-
467 B.C.), 88, 90, 117, 185, 287 n.
Solon, Athenian law-giver and poet
(c. 638-555 B.C.), 87, 41, 197
Sophroniscus, Athenian sculptor,
father of Socrates, 13, 471
Stephanus, son of Thucydides, 849
Stesilaus, master-at-arms, 21-3

Tantalus, a king who betrayed the
secrets of the gods and was
punished after death by having
his appetites tempted but never
gratified, 113-4 n. :

Teiresias, blind
Thebes, 369

Thales, of Miletus, Ionian sage, 197

Themistocles, Athenian statesman
(c. 514-449 B.C.), 349

Theognis, of Megara, poet (c. 570-
490 B.c.), 353

Theseus, 66 n.

Thucydides, son of Melesias, leader
of the aristocratic party in Athens
(c. 490-430 B.¢.), 38, 7, 349 n., 851

Thurii, Greek colony in South Italy,
381, 437

soothsayer of

Xanthias, a wrestling-master, 349

Xanthippus, son of Pericles and
half-brother of Callias, 113, 151,
349

Xenophon, son of Gryllus, Athenian
soldier and writer (¢. 356
B.C.), 385 n.

Zeus, 133 ff., 153, 489

Zeuxippus (or Zeuxis), of Heraclea
in South Italy, painter (c. 450-
370 B.c.), 123 .

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Potysius. W.R. Paton. 6 Vols.

Procorrus: History or rue Wars. H. B. Dewing. 7 Vols.
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Protinus. A. H. Armstrong.
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