Full text of "Determined advocate for racial equality : oral history transcript / and related material, 1977-1979"

OtiUs

University of California Berkeley

Frances Albrier
September 17, 1960

Regional Oral History Office
The Bancroft Library
University of California
Berkeley, California

Schlesinger Library on the
History of Women in America
Radcliffe College
Cambridge, Massachusetts

Women in Politics Oral History Project
Black Women Oral History Project

Frances Mary Albrier
DETERMINED ADVOCATE FOR RACIAL EQUALITY

With Introductions by

Ruth Acty
Velma Ford

An Interview Conducted by
Malca Chall
1977 - 1978

Underwritten by grants from:

Rockefeller Foundation

National Endowment for the Humanities

Columbia Foundation

Fairtree Foundation

Individual Donors

Copy no .

THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
August 28, 1987

OBITUARIES

Frances Mary Albrier eter v. E1 Cerrito

Funeral services will be held
this morning for Frances Mary Al-
brier, a longtime East Bay civil
rights leader who died Friday of
heart failure at her Berkeley home.
She was 87.

Mrs. Albrter. a native of Tuske-
gee, Ala., earned a degree from
..Howard University in 1920 and mov
ed .to the Bay Area.

After her first husband died.
.stye raised three children while
working as a practical nurse and as
. a maid for the Pullman Co.

During the 1930s and 1940s she
became active politically and was
the first woman elected to Alameda
.County s and California s Democrat-
je Central Committees. She became .
the first black woman hired by Kai-
^er. Shipyards In World War II. and
her efforts led Berkeley to hke
women teachers.

As a member of the NAACP.

sha received the group s Fight for
-Freedom Award in 1954.

Mrs. Albrier was chosen in 1971
Ipr the California Congress of Par
esis and Teachers Honorary Ser
vices Award, the group s highest
honor.

She also was given a citation by
Che California Assembly s rules
committee for her "outstanding re
cord of achievements in public ser
vice."

Mrs. Albrier was included in a
lj}85 book titled, "Gifts of Age: Por
traits and Essays of 32 Remarkable
Women," published by Chronicle
B^oks.

She is survived by two daugh

ters, Anita T. Black of Oakland and

Betty Kimble of Cherry Hill, N.C.,

and a son, William Jackson, of San

Jose, Costa Rica.

. Funeral services will be held at
11 a.m. today at Sunset View Cha
pel, with burial in Sunset View Cem-

Donations are preferred to the
Frances Albrier Scholarship Fund,
in care of Fouche s Hudson Funeral
Home, 3665 Telegraph Avenue. Oak
land 94609.

All uses of this manuscript are covered by an
agreement between Frances Albrier and the Regents of
the University of California and Radcliffe College dated
December 29, 1978. The manuscript is thereby made
available for research purposes. All literary rights in
the manuscript, including the right to publish, are
reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of
California at Berkeley and the Schlesinger Library of
Radcliffe College. No part of the manuscript may be
quoted for publication without the written permission
of the Director of the Bancroft Library of the University
of California at Berkeley or the Director of the
Schlesinger Library of Radcliffe College.

Request for permission to quote for publication
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History
Office, 486 Library, University of California,
Berkeley, or Schlesinger Library, Radcliffe College,
Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138, and should include
identification of the specific passages to be quoted,
anticipated use of the passages, and identification of
the user. The legal agreement with Frances Albrier
requires that she be notified of the request and allowed
thirty days in which to respond. The legal agreement with
Frances Albrier stipulates that no one may use the oral
history to write a full-length biography of her.

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

This memoir of Frances Albrier was produced within the scope of the
Regional Oral History Office s California Women Political Leaders Oral
History Project. It was begun with a matching grant from the National
Endowment for the Humanities . While the Office sought matching funds
from institutional sources so that Mrs. Albrier s many years of community
service could be thoroughly documented, her friends Ruth Acty, Velma Ford,
and Maryetta Gross offered to raise funds in the community among
Mrs. Albrier s long-time friends and colleagues.

In behalf of future researchers this Office wishes to thank the
National Endowment for the Humanities which underwrote the California
Women Political Leaders Oral History Project, Radcliffe College which
added Mrs. Albrier s memoir to its Black Women Oral History Project and
shared some costs, the Columbia and Fairtree Foundations which provided
funds to assist in the match, and the many friends of Mrs. Albrier whose
contributions helped make possible the completion of the memoir. The
names of the donors are listed on the following page.

Malca Chall, Project Director
Women in Politics
Oral History Project

Willa Baum, Department Head
Regional Oral History Project

2 October 1979

DONORS TO THE FRANCES ALBRIER ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Ruth Acty

Julian and Ruth M. Adams

Christine Allen

Spurgeon and Ruth Avakian

Berton J. and Gertrude Ballard

Robert C. and June R. Batterman

Margaret Lea Beede

Roy Blackburn

J.L. and Minnie Lee Boyd

George F. and Helen S. Break

Anita Uhl Brothers

Frank 0. and Louise W. Brown

Leo W. Brown

Fanya Carter

John E. and Marylyn A. Coons

Esther Courtney

Marian Crawford

Claude Daughtry

Carole K. Davis

Frank Davis, Jr.

A.G. and Sybil A. Dinaburg

Charles G. and Wenonah. Drasnin
Marie Duggan

Billye Dunlap

Mervyn Dymally

George and Lillian Elner

Fannie Wall Children s Home, Inc.

Vernon and Ilo Beatrice Fielder

Marcella Ford

Velma Ford

Elizabeth Gordon

Robert A. and Margaret S. Gordon

M.R. and Mary A. Griffin

Maryetta C. Gross

James W. Guthrie

Mary Hagar Hafner

Stanley G. and Flora J. Hanks

Harold F. and Eleanor F. Heady

Barney E. and M. Yvonne Hilburn

Booker T. Jackson, Jr.

Leslie T. and Rowena V. Jackson

Sophia Kagel

Edward E. Kallgren

Albert H. Knight

Andie L. and Ruth R. Knutson

Kathy Sue Krohn

Eugene P. Lasartemay

Samantha H. Lee

Elizabeth B. Lyman

Alfred E. Maffly

Lucile E. Marshall

Worden and Florence McDonald

Sylvia C. McLaughlin

Lela Moore

Walter H. Morris

National Association of Negro Business

& Professional Women s Clubs, Inc.
Julius and Ruby Osborne
Dorothy W. Pitts
Weilan E. and Lillian M. Potts
Lillian Rabinowitz
Robert W. Ratcliff
Doretha Riley
Melinda Robinson

George W. and Lorraine N. Rollins
Joshua R. and Virginia C. Rose
George B. and Ruth Weston Scheer
Richard and Martha B. Scott
Thomas B. and Inga F. Shaw
Carol Sibley

Earl and Virginia Siniburg
Norvel and Mary P. Smith
Eulalia Taylor
Vertis R. Thompson
Euna Lee Tucker
Cleopatra Vaughns
Lynn 0. and Louise J. Waldorf
Raymond P. and Charlotte Weber
Warren H. Widener

Carroll B. , Jr. and Marcheta A. Williams
Marie Wilson
Viola Taylor Wims
F.E. Young

BLACK WOMEN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interview with Frances Albrier

ERRATUM

Page 168, fourth time Chall speaks, should read:
Chall: To Congress. [1944-1950]

TABLE OF CONTENTS Frances Albrier

PREFACES: California Women Political Leaders Oral History Project i

Black Women Oral History Project v

INTRODUCTION by Ruth Acty vi

INTRODUCTION by Velma Ford ix

INTERVIEW HISTORY xi

BRIEF BIOGRAPHY xiv

I GROWING UP IN TUSKEGEE, ALABAMA, 1898-1920 1

[Interview 1, November 14, 1977, Tape 1, side 1] 1

Frances Albrier s Mother and Father 1

Her Grandmother, Johanna Bowen Redgrey 5

Memories of Slavery 6

Her Grandfather, Lewis L. Redgrey 9

Recollections of Life with Her Exceptional Grandmother 12

Religion 14

Tuskegee Institute and Booker T. Washington 15

The Importance of an Education 17

[Tape 1, side 2] 17

Prejudice and the Teachings Against Bitterness 18

The Purpose of the Tuskegee Academic-Vocational Program 23

The Transition to Howard University: Vocational Choices 25

Moving to Berkeley, California and Marriage, 1920 29

Job Options Closed to Negroes: Handling the Frustrations 31

II FURTHER RECOLLECTIONS OF LIFE IN TUSKEGEE AND THE HOWARD

UNIVERSITY EXPERIENCE 34

[Interview 2, November 30, 1977, Tape 2, side 1] 34

Tuskegee 34

The Family Home: Farming, Canning, Cleaning 34

Family Standards and Discipline 38

Communication: Telephones, Magazines, Women s Clubs 40

Additional Insights Into the Tuskegee Philosophy 42

Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois: Vocational versus

Academic Education 44

"Earn Your Way" 46

[Tape 2, side 2] 46

Vivid Memories of George Washington Carver 46

Boys and Girls: In School and in the Community 47

Howard University: A Different Community, a Different Philosophy

of Education 49

Meeting the Foremost Negro Leaders 52

World War I 55

Grandfather s Influence: An Ideal Man 57

III THE FIRST DECADES IN BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA, 1920-1940 60

[Interview 3, December 7, 1977, Tape 3, side 1] 60

Moving to Berkeley, 1920 61

Joining the Marcus Garvey Organization 65

The Philosophy and Dream of Marcus Garvey 69

Going to Work: A Variety of Jobs 73

A Maid in the Pullman Service, 1926-1931 76

[Tape 3, side 2] 77

Organizing the Pullman Car Porters and Maids 78

Marriage to Willie Albrier, 1934 85

The Effects of the Depression on Unifying the Community 90

Family Life and Church 92

The Berkeley-Oakland Pattern of Discrimination 94

IV ACTIVITIES ON BEHALF OF EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES FOR NEGROES 98

[Interview 4, December 14, 1977, Tape 4, side 1] 98
Organizing Local 456: Dining Car Cooks, Waiters and

Miscellaneous Help 98

The Auxiliary and its Role 100

Labor s Non-Partisan League: Getting Workers Into Politics 102

The East Bay Women s Welfare Club: Hiring Negro Teachers in

Berkeley, 1938-1943 104

Candidate for the Berkeley City Council, 1939 106

Achieving the Policy of Non-Discrimination in Hiring Issues:

Radicals; Opposition Among Blacks and Whites 110

[Tape 4, side 2] 112
Success at Last: Ruth Acty is Placed in Longfellow School 113

Community Support 116

The Concern with Takeover by Radicals 118

"Don t Buy Where You Can t Work," 1940, 1955 119

World War II: Breaking the Racial Barriers 127

The Red Cross: Auto Mechanics for Women Drivers 127
Integrating Women Welders in the Kaiser Shipyards, 1942-1943 123

[Tape 5, side 1] 128

Fighting Discrimination in the Department of Employment 136

[Tape 5, side 2] 137

A. Philip Randolph and Executive Order 8802 138

Standing Up to Prejudice 139
The Meaning of the Craft Auxiliary Unions to Black

Employment 142

Fighting Discrimination in the Post Office 145

The Merchant Marines and Discrimination 148

The Little Citizens Study and Welfare Club 150

[Interview 6, January 16, 1978, Tape 6, side 1 152

V A HALF-CENTURY OF POLITICAL ACTION, 1932-1978 158
The Alameda County Democratic Central Committee: The First

Woman Elected, 1938 159

Some Recollections of Party Activity 164

The Place of Women in the Party Structure: A Loss of

Independence 168

[Tape 6, side 2] 170

Berkeley Democratic Party Leaders and Policies 173

Concern for Black People, Especially Women 177

Campaigns for Committee Offices 180

Black Activists in the Central Committee 181

President Truman and Civil Rights Issues, 1948-1952 184

[Tape 7, side 1] 184

Membership in Local Democratic Party Clubs 190

Minorities and the California Democratic Council 196a

Berkeley Politics: Electing Blacks to City Council and School

Board 198

[Tape 7, side 2] 198

The Fair Housing Referendum 202

School Integration 205

Community Leaders 205

[Interview 8, March 1, 1978, Tape 8, side 1] 209

The Effect of Electing a Black Man to the School Board 209

Busing as a Means of Integration 212

VI CLUBS AND CIVIC ORGANIZATIONS 214

Integrating White Women s Groups 214

The Berkeley League of Women Voters 214

The Young Women s Christian Association 219

The Red Cross 221a

[Tape 8, side 2] 222

Racially Mixed Women s Groups 223

The Berkeley Women s Town Council 223

The Women s International League for Peace and Freedom 224

Women, Peace, and Social Change 225

Negro Women s Clubs 228

The California Association of Colored Women 228

The National Council of Negro Women 231

The Debutante Balls 236

The Elks and the Eastern Star 238

Eastbay Women s Missionary Fellowship 241

Men and Women Working Together 244

The Negro Historical and Cultural Society 244

De Fremery Recreation and Hospitality Center, 1942 247

[Interview 9, March 2, 1978, Tape 9, side 1] 247

The PTA: Concerns with Schools and Education 250

Education and Prejudice 251

Opening Nurses Training to Black Girls 251a

Pride in Her Children 254

Speaking on Black History in the Schools 256

The Unforgettable Trip to Africa, 1960 259

[Tape 9, side 2] 260

Traveling as a Child in Europe, 1910-1913 263

Civil Rights Organizations 267

National Negro Congress 267
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 268

[Tape 10, side 1] 271

The Communist Party and the Black Community 273

The Congress of Racial Equality 276

Martin Luther King 278

Militant Groups of the Sixties 279

Forty Years of Change in the South 280

The Negro Press 281

VII THE PRESENT: EVALUATIONS AND ACTIVITIES 283

Some Women and Men Who Have Left Their Mark on the Black Community 233

[Tape 10, side 2] 284

Mrs. Albrier Evaluates Her Goals as a Community Leader 289

Appointments to Community Agencies Today, 1978 291

Herrick Memorial Hospital Board of Trustees, 1972 292

Chaparral House 298

Senior Centers and the Committee on Aging 300

INDEX 302

PREFACE

The following interview is one of a series of tape-recorded memoirs in the
California Women Political Leaders Oral History Project. The series has been
designed to study the political activities of a representative group of California
women who became active in politics during the years between the passage of the
woman s suffrage amendment and the current feminist movement roughly the years
between 1920 and 1965. They represent a variety of views: conservative,
moderate, liberal, and radical, although most of them worked within the Demo
cratic and Republican parties. They include elected and appointed officials at
national, state, and local governmental levels. For many the route to leadership
was through the political party primarily those divisions of the party reserved
for women.

Regardless of the ultimate political level attained, these women have all
worked in election campaigns on behalf of issues and candidates. They have
raised funds, addressed envelopes, rung doorbells, watched polls, staffed offices,
given speeches, planned media coverage, and when permitted, helped set policy.
While they enjoyed many successes, a few also experienced defeat as candidates
for public office.

Their different family and cultural backgrounds, their social attitudes, and
their personalities indicate clearly that there is no typical woman political
leader; their candid, first-hand observations and their insights about their
experiences provide fresh source material for the social and political history
of women in the past half century.

In a broader framework their memoirs provide valuable insights into the
political process as a whole. The memoirists have thoughtfully discussed
details of party organization and the work of the men and women who served the
party. They have analysed the process of selecting party leaders and candidates,
running campaigns, raising funds, and drafting party platforms, as well as the
more subtle aspects of political life such as maintaining harmony and coping with
fatigue, frustration, and defeat. Perceived through it all are the pleasures of
friendships, struggles, and triumphs in a common cause.

The California Women Political Leaders Oral History Project has been financed
by both an outright and a matching grant from the National Endowment for the
Humanities. Matching funds were provided by the Rockefeller Foundation for the
Helen Gahagan Douglas unit of the project, by Radcliffe College, by the Columbia
Foundation, by the Fairtree Foundation, and by individuals who were interested
in supporting memoirs of their friends and colleagues. In addition, funds from
the California State Legislature-sponsored Knight-Brown Era Public Affairs Project
made it possible to increase the research and broaden the scope of the interviews
in which there was a meshing of the woman s political career with the topics
being studied in the Knight-Brown project. Professors Judith Blake Davis,

Albert Lepawsky, and Walton Bean served as principal investigators during the
period July 1975-December 1977 that the project was underway. This series is
the second phase of the Women in Politics Oral History Project, the first of
which dealt with the experiences of eleven women who had been leaders and rank-
and-file workers in the suffrage movement.

The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record autobio
graphical interviews with persons significant in the history of the West and the
nation. The Office is under the administrative supervision of James D. Hart,
Director of The Bancroft Library. Interviews were conducted by Amelia R. Fry,
Miriam Stein, Gabrielle Morris, Malca Chall, Fern Ingersoll, and Ingrid Scobie.

Malca Chall, Project Director

Women in Politics Oral History Project

Willa Baum, Department Head
Regional Oral History Office

4 October 1979

Regional Oral History Office

486 The Bancroft Library

University of California at Berkeley

Ill
CALIFORNIA WOMEN POLITICAL LEADERS ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Frances Albrier, Determined. Advocate for Racial Equality. 1979

March Fong Eu, High Achieving Nonconformist in Local and State Government. 1977

Jean Wood Fuller, Organizing Women: Careers in Volunteer Politics and Government
Administration. 1977

Elizabeth R. Gatov, Grassroots Party Organizer to United States Treasurer. 1977
Bernice Hubbard May, A Native Daughter s Leadership in Public Affairs. 1976
Hulda Hoover McLean, A Conservative Crusader for Good Government. 1977
Julia Porter, Dedicated Democrat and City Planner. 1977
Wanda Sankary, From Sod House to State House. 1979

Vera Schultz, Marin County Perspective on Ideals and Realities in State and Local
Government. 1977

Clara Shirpser, One Woman s Role in Democratic Party Politics. 1975
Elizabeth Snyder, California s First Woman State Party Chairman. 1977

Eleanor Wagner, Independent Political Coalitions: Electoral, Legislative, and
Community. 1977

Carolyn Wolfe, Educating for Citizenship: A Career in Community Affairs and the
Democratic Party, 1906-1976. 1978

Interviews in Process

Marjorie Benedict La Rue McCormick

Odessa Cox Emily Pike

Pauline Davis Zita Remley

Ann Eliaser Hope Mendoza Schechter

Kimiko Fujii Carmen Warschaw

Elinor R. Keller Rosalind Wytnari

Patricia R. Hitt Mildred Younger
Lucile Hosmer

October 1979

Helen Gahagan Douglas Unit*
Interviews in Process

Helen Gahagan Douglas
Juar.it a Bsrbee
Rachel Bell
Fay Bennett
Albert Cahn
Margery Cahn
Evelyn Chavoor
Alis De Sola
Tilford Dudley
India Edwards
Walter Gahagan
Arthur Goldschmidt
Elizabeth Goldschmidt
Leo Goodman

Kenneth Harding
Charles Hogan
Chet Holifield
Mary Keyserling
Judge Byron Lindsley
Helen Lustig
Alvin Meyers
William Malone
Philip Noel-Baker
Cornelia Palms
Walter Pick
Frank Rogers
Lucy Kramer Cohen

The researcher is directed also to interviews in the Earl Warren Era Oral
History Project and the Knight-Brown Era Public Affairs Project for
additional material on California political history.

*The Helen Gahagan Douglas unit was designed to complete one long biographical
memoir with Mrs. Douglas and short interviews with persons who had worked with
her in the theatre, in her campaigns, and in Congress.

May 1978

PREFACE: BLACK WOMEN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
RADCLIFFE COLLEGE

In July 1976 the Schlesinger Library, with a two-year grant from The
Rockefeller Foundation, began a project of recording the autobiographical
memoirs of a group of black American women 70 years of age and older. The
purpose of the project was to develop a body of resource material on the
lives and contributions of black women in the twentieth century, especially
in the years prior to the Civil Rights Movement, and to make this material
available to researchers and students interested in the struggles of women
and racial minorities in the United States. The project has focused on
women who have made strong impacts on their communities through their
professions or through voluntary service. Interviewees have been active in
such fields as education, government, the arts, business, medicine, and law.

In the past the black woman often has not created a written record of
her experiences, and when such a record has been created, it is not usually
found in libraries or archives, the traditional repositories for historical
documents. One means of attempting to capture and preserve such lives is
the oral interview, which explores the influences and events that have shaped
each woman s experience and gives her an opportunity to reflect on the past
and to present her point of view on historical events. The interviews of
the Black Women Oral History Project offer fresh source material that can
add an important dimension to the study of the history of the United States.
They supplement and comment on other sources as they examine the active
participation of a group whose members were previously overlooked as being
only shaped by historical events.

The interviews in the Black Women Oral History Project
are dedicated to the memory of

Letitia Woods Brown

whose enthusiastic encouragement and wise counsel
made the project possible

INTRODUCTION BY RUTH ACTY

I grew up in West Oakland during the twenties and thirties. There were
very few Black people in the Bay Area at that time. (The influx came during
World War II.) As far as work was concerned, there were very few job
opportunities for Blacks. Most of the men worked for the Southern Pacific
Railroad as waiters or as porters . (Even when their work was slightly more
elevated, they were still labeled porters.) Most of the Black women stayed
at home and reared their families. Jobs as waiters or waitresses in
restaurants, jobs in hotels as maids or clerks, jobs as janitors in downtown
office buildings were closed to Blacks. Nor were there receptionists or
nurses or teachers. However, the first nurse was hired at Highland Hospital
in Oakland in the twenties and so was Oakland s first public school teacher,
Miss Ida Jackson. These were among the first, but employment opportunities
did not go much beyond these few.

There seemed to be an apathetic mood among most Black people about trying
to break into jobs that were closed to them. There was a general feeling
among the native born, and most of us were native born, that we must try our
best to fit into the "establishment." Our speech and decorum were very much
like those of the people who influenced us the most: our strict parents
primarily, and then our staid teachers, and our friends who were for the most
part White. Anyone who tried to break out of the pattern was looked upon with
disfavor.

Mrs. Frances Albrier came on the scene in 1924. She was a fearless
young woman from Tuskegee, Alabama who was not afraid to challenge the
"establishment." She had been reared by a strong and courageous grandmother.
After her grandmother passed away she came to Berkeley to live with her
father.

When she later became a wife and mother, her children attended the
Berkeley schools. But since their teachers were all White they felt there
was no one with whom they could identify, no one at school who really under
stood them.

It was because of her children that Mrs. Albrier began to take stock
of the community. She and her friend, Mrs. Ivan Gray, were taxpayers.
They formed an organization known as the East Bay Women s Welfare Club.
These women did some research and discovered that there were 5,000 Black
taxpayers in Berkeley. They felt that they were taxed without being pronerly

Vll

represented. So, immediately they began to bring pressure to bear on the
Berkeley Board of Education to appoint a Black teacher. At first the Board
members were very much opposed to the idea.

Finally, Dr. Louise Hector, a pediatrician who was chairperson of the
Board at that time, made an effort to persuade the others to consider the
possibility of employing a Black teacher. Their response was that they
did not know of any qualified Blacks in the area.

That is when I first became acquainted with Mrs. Albrier. It was the
spring of 1939 and I was playing in a Federal Theater production in
San Francisco, since I had not been able to find a teaching position not
even with Kindergarten-Primary, General Elementary, Junior High and Special
Speech credentials from San Francisco State and six months work toward a
Master s Degree at U.C. Berkeley.

The East Bay Women s Welfare Club held a meeting one afternoon in the
home of one of their members and invited me to be present. Among the women
who questioned me was Mrs. Albrier, an intelligent and keenly perceptive
woman.

At that time there were very few Black teachers who had graduated from
the University of California at Berkeley or from San Francisco State.
Consequently, there were not many qualified young Black teachers available
in the Bay Area. (I should add that the Board members preferred teachers
who had been educated in California.)

The club women asked me to apply for a teaching position in Berkeley.
They had also asked several other women.

I applied first in 1939. Dr. Dickson, the superintendent of schools,
told me that there was nothing available. He suggested, however, that I keep
in touch with him.

I went to El Centro in Imperial Valley to teach for three years and then
returned briefly to Berkeley early in the summer of 1942. Again, I inquired
of Dr. Dickson about a teaching position. Again, there was nothing available.

After accepting a position to teach Drama at Bennett College in
Greensboro, North Carolina that Fall, I received a wire from Dr. Dickson
concerning an opening. I left Bennett in December of 1942 and returned to
Berkeley to accept a position to teach in Kindergarten at Longfellow School.

Later I went on to obtain an M.A. Degree at Northwestern University
in Illinois and Secondary and Adult teaching credentials in California.
I have long been out of Kindergarten work, but I am still teaching in
Berkeley.

Today, there are a large number of minority teachers and administrators
in this city and the present superintendent of the Berkeley Schools is a
Black man.

viii

Thus, one of Mrs. Albrier s dreams became a reality. Her concern and
persistence has helped open doors to employment for many other people in many
areas of endeavor. How does she work? She works primarily by knowing her
rights under the law, by working through organizations and by being able to
negotiate with people in various positions of power.

This remarkable woman has unending patience and endurance and a deep
social commitment. She has the ability to follow through once she accepts a
challenge. She is a firm, positive person, yet innately very kind, and her
contributions to this community are legion.

Ruth Acty

10 August 1978
Berkeley, California

INTRODUCTION BY VELMA FORD

I feel privileged in having this opportunity to introduce Frances Albrier,

In retrospect, it would be appropriate to introduce this great lady in
the same manner as one would Presidents, Kings, or Queens. However, many
people who will read her own account of her experiences will want to know
firsthand who this woman is, what is she like as a human being?

Having met Frances when I was a child and having almost constant
contact with her makes it difficult to enumerate even the most cogent points
of her accomplishments in a brief introduction. You will learn about her
background from the oral history, so I would like to share a couple of my
personal experiences with Frances .

It was at a conference some years ago when the question of the
"18-year-old-vote" was on the agenda for the first time. I was disturbed
because the subject was being discussed and teenagers were not permitted to
have input. After sitting through the morning session I was beginning to
get very weary and disgruntled, so when the microphones were placed in the
audience at the front of the auditorium I ran up to the front, climbed up
on the table and screamed, "Mr. Chairman, I want to be heard right now."
The adults were startled, and I wanted to go home after my outburst. But
Frances came to me and said, "You go back to your seat and wait there. This
meeting is not over. You have done a noble thing here you have communicated
with these older people. Now they will listen." I followed her instructions.
The 18-year-old vote did eventually become a reality.

Later I became very disturbed with my own role and wanted to stop
working as a community leader. Frances Albrier noted the seriousness of my
dilemma and came to me and said, "Your life is really not just your own.
You have talents that are needed in today s world and for the future. You
cannot stop now I won t allow you to do that. You know we can t expect
gratitude. We do what we have to do, then move on to the goals we have in
mind . "

She would not leave me until I agreed to reflect more on the stress and
turmoil in the world, how different people were affected by that stress,
and what the real role of a "social worker had to be. As a result, I am
still working day and night making slow progress in the areas of social
change and human relations .

These two examples are typical of the profound influence she has had on
the lives of her hundreds of children. She has been supportive whenever I ve
needed her, providing strength any orphan needs to get over those throes in
life that are perhaps special to that group.

Truthfully, I would not be the person I am today if it had not been
for Frances Albrier. She provided the positive role model and an ongoing
relationship that has made the difference in my life. She helped me develop
pride in myself, ethnic values, respect, and a healthy pattern of interaction
with peers and adults. Even though father and mother were not there, I had
a source of family in Frances Albrier.

When I introduce Frances now in June 1978, I always have to ask,
"Would you believe that she is a couple of months away from her eightieth
birthday, with the mental alertness of one thirty-five; my advisor, family,
and friend as well as my chauffeur a woman of wisdom who says something
everytime she opens her mouth? Well, here she is, one of America s most
articulate human beings of the century Frances M. Albrier."

Her experiences, awards, political and social involvement, and continued
participation in government and community affairs, places her in a unique
class. When called upon to serve humanity, Frances never thinks twice.
She always says, "Yes, I ll do it."

Whenever I am over-extended and tell Frances that I just can t get to

all of the , she stops me cold and says, "Velma, you take the t

off of can t."

All of us who have "touched the hem of her garment" will always serve
our communities, and our world well; we will give it all that we have to
offer in positive ways to help make this world a better place for our most
valued resource, Our Children. I speak for all of "her children." We
love Frances Albrier and we know you will, too, as we share her with you
through her own "Oral History."

Velma Ford

7 June 1978
Berkeley, California

INTERVIEW HISTORY

Frances Albrier, a resident of Berkeley, California since 1920, is an
indefatigable opponent of racial prejudice, a strong-willed, yet gentle leader
on behalf of equal rights for Negroes. Born in 1898, educated at Tuskagee
Institute, which her grandmother, a former slave, helped found, and at Howard
University, she has always felt keenly an obligation to promote equality.
Never forgetting her grandmother s admonition that "bitterness could kill
you," she learned to substitute for bitterness and rancor, carefully planned
political strategems, matched by a stubborn determination to meet her goals.

Thus she has been at the forefront of every major civil rights movement
since the early twenties, often setting up ad hoc organizations in order to
achieve specific local goals. Along the way she has inspired many young men
and women to carry forward in the same spirit and to the same ends. She has
helped pave the way for black women and men to work as clerks in neighborhood
stores, to work as welders in the shipyards during World War II, to teach in
public schools, to train as nurses, to run for and be elected to the city
council, the school board, and the state legislature. Oftimes during these
years Frances Albrier has not only been the first black person to join an
organization, she has been the first woman.

Little wonder then that Frances Albrier is today a highly respected
leader among people of all races, or that she was chosen to participate in
the California Women Political Leaders Oral History Project after a special
matching offer from the National Endowment for the Humanities enabled the
Regional Oral History Office to extend the project to include four women
from minority ethnic communities who have had significant impact on their own
as well as the broader majority community.

Matching funds for the Albrier memoir came from several sources. The
first was through a successful local fund drive planned and carried out by
three of Mrs. Albrier s friends. The second came from Schlesinger Library
on the History of Women in America at Radcliffe College whose directors agreed
to include Mrs. Albrier s memoir in their national Black Women Oral History
Project and to share some of the costs. That project has been funded by the
Rockefeller Foundation. Finally added funds came from the Columbia Foundation
and the Fairtree Foundation.

Although Mrs. Albrier has been interviewed innumerable times, mainly by
the press, she understood that working on a full-length biographical memoir
would require more time and effort on her part than had any of the other
interviews. How much extra time and effort I am sure she did not realize at
first, any more than I realized the extent of her incredibly broad community
involvement until after I had met with her to plan the interview sessions and
later received a box full of letters, press clippings, membership certificates,
and other carefully saved memorabilia.

xii

That Mrs. Albrier would provide a candid, down-to-earth interview was
apparent during our first meeting, when replying to my question about which
term she would prefer me to use in talking to her, Negro or black, she answered
that it really didn t matter because when she started out in life the word in
vogue was "colored." And if there was any concern on her part in being inter
viewed by a Caucasian she never let me feel it. She answered all iny questions
frankly, quietly teaching me much about the struggle for racial equality in
Berkeley and the United States which can be understood best only by those who
have experienced it.

One of the major "finds" in Mrs. Albrier s box of memorabilia was a large
scrapbook with twenty pages full of carefully pasted-down material on her
activities in the community and in politics dating from 1938 to 1971, with
loose papers in envelopes bringing her activities up to the present. As I
read through this, taking notes in order to prepare outlines for the interview
sessions, it became obvious that despite Mrs. Albrier s individual approaches
to ending racism, she, like other community and political leaders, was not
acting in isolation, that she was always a part of the nation s civil rights
movement. To find out more about this history, I sought advice from William
M. Banks, Professor of Afro-American Studies at the University of California,
Berkeley. Professor Banks offered many helpful ideas for questions and
suggested that I read Negro Protest Thought in the Twentieth Century, edited
by Francis L. Broderick and August Meier. I also found helpful Gerda Lerner s
Black Women in White America, and of significant local interest, The Negro
Trail Blazers in California, written by Oakland Tribune columnist, Delilah
Beasley, and published privately in 1919.

Mrs. Albrier and I began the first of our nine taping sessions on

November 14, 1977 and we continued at almost weekly intervals until March 2, 1978,
We always met from two until four o clock in the afternoon so that Mrs. Albrier
could carry out her duties in the Senior Citizens Center, or attend other
community meetings in the mornings. We sat in her warm, glassed-in front porch
during the first two meetings, enjoying the late afternoon sun. But when
California s two-year drought gave way to heavy rains during the winter and
spring of 1978 we sought warmth and shelter in the living room. Here by the
window, Mrs. Albrier set up a card table and chair for my use. She sat
comfortably in an arm chair nearby, and in this manner we completed the
remaining seven sessions.

Mrs. Albrier has lived in her home at 1621 Oregon Street since 1922,
in one of Berkeley s older, one-time integrated, and now primarily black
neighborhoods. It is a spacious two-story house, comfortably furnished in the
never out-of-date Victorian style. In this home Mrs. Albrier reared her three
children; this home also has been the pivotal center of countless community
meetings.

From March 14 to August 22, 1978 Mrs. Albrier carefully reviewed her
edited transcript, patiently adding more detail, correcting spelling, and
filling in sections which could not be heard because of occasional static on

xiii

the tape. The table of contents, the brief biography, and the introductions
offer a key to the many topics covered in this oral history.

Mrs. Albrier has deposited her scrapbook and other papers in The Bancroft
Library; some of the material has been duplicated and placed where relevant
in the manuscript in order to give the reader an idea of the richness of the
collection. Not only does it give insights into Mrs. Albrier s life and
activities, it also provides an overview of the forty-year history of the
local Negro community: the press, the leaders, the social, civic and political
affairs.

Many persons have cooperated to make this memoir possible: Ruth Acty,
and Velma Ford who wrote introductions, and who, along with Maryetta Gross,
co-chaired the campaign for funds; the donors; Ruth Hill, the director of
the Black Women Oral History Project, and Patricia King, director of
Schlesinger Library. This volume has been worth the efforts of all concerned
as it details the life of one woman who never gave up her struggle for equality,
a life which can provide inspiration to those who want to know how difficult
goals, once set, can be achieved.

Malca Chall
Interviewer-Editor

26 July 1979

Regional Oral History Office

486 The Bancroft Library

University of California at Berkeley

xiv

FRANCES ALBRIER: BRIEF BIOGRAPHY

1898 Born, Mt. Vernon, N.Y.

1904-1916 Reared by grandparents in Tuskegee, Alabama. Attended
Tuskegee Institute elementary through high school

1910-1913 Summer vacations in Europe with friend of grandmother
1917-1920 Howard University

1920 Moved to Berkeley, California

1921 Joined Black Cross Nurse Corps of the Universal Negro
Improvement Association

1922 Married William Albert Jackson; children: Albert Jackson,
Betty Kimble, Anita Black

1926-1931 Maid with the Pullman Company, Sunset Limited and other
first class trains

1934 Married Willie Antoine Albrier

1938-1962 Elected to the Alameda County Democratic Central Committee.
The first woman in 1938. Secretary, 1956

1938 Manager, East Bay Campaign Headquarters for election of
state officials and Franklin Roosevelt for president

1938-1943 President, East Bay Women s Welfare Club; goal: to hire
black teachers in the Berkeley school system

1938 Board of Directors, National Negro Congress

1939 Candidate, Berkeley City Council

1939 Treasurer, Labor s Non-Partisan League in 17th Assembly
District

1940 Elected director, Alameda County Branch, NAACP

1940 President, Citizens Employment Council. "Don t Buy Where
You Can t Work"

1942-1943 First Aid Instructor, Oakland Chapter, American National
Red Cross

1942-1943 Welder, Kaiser Shipyards, Richmond, California

1942 Chairman, Sponsors Committee, DeFremery Recreation and
Hospitality Center

1942-1944 State Superintendent, Department of Women in Industry,
California Association of Colored Women s Clubs

1943-1945 President, Postal Service Workers Club, Camp Knight,
California

1944 President, Ladies Auxiliary, Dining Car Cooks, Waiters,
and Bartenders Union, Local 456

1945 Organized and president, Little Citizens Study and
Welfare Club

1945-1948 Chairman (public relations), East Bay Women s Missionary
Fellowship

1945-1949 State Superintendent, Citizenship and Legislation,
California Association of Colored Women s Clubs

1952 President, Women s Art and Industrial Club, Oakland
Chapter, Association of Colored Women s Clubs

1953 Grand Assistant Directress, Department of Civil Liberties,
IBPOEW Grand Lodge, Elks

1955 Secretary, education committee, East Bay Organizations
Employment Committee

1955 President, Community Service Welfare Center

1956 President, Twentieth Century Democratic Club

1956 President, San Francisco Chapter, National Council of
Negro Women

1958 Co-Chairman, Alameda County Campaign, Glenn Anderson
for Lieutenant Governor

XVI

1958 Organizer, Golden Gate Democratic Club

1960 Attended Nigerian Independence Celebrations

1961 Spokesperson for a group of housewives demonstrating for peace, WILPF

1964 Chairman, Alameda County, Women Volunteers for
Pierre Salinger

1965 President, San Francisco Negro Historical and Cultural
Society

1967-1969 President, Alameda County Democratic Women s Study Club
1968 President, East Bay Negro Historical Society

1968-1970 Treasurer, Berkeley NAACP

1969-1974 Board of Directors, South Berkeley Model Cities Neighborhood
Council - representing senior citizens

1970 Senior Community Representative, Berkeley Senior Center

1971 Delegate, White House Conference on Aging

1972 Board of Directors, Herrick Memorial Hospital, Berkeley

1973 President, Berkeley Women s Town Council

1974 Advisory Committee, South Berkeley Center, YMCA

1972 Board of Directors, Chaparral House

1954
1955

AMONG THE AWARDS AND HONORS

NAACP, West Coast Region "Fight for Freedom Award"

Eastbay Rod and Gun Club, Award of Merit for "services
rendered"

1958, 1960 Tuskegee Alumni Association Award for outstanding civic
activities

1956, 1962 Sun Reporter Citizen of Merit Award for Outstanding
Community Service

XV11

1962
1963

1930-1967
1967

1971

1971
1973
1974
1976

1976
1976

1976
1978
1978

Women s Art and Industrial Club, Bay Area, outstanding
service and dedicated leadership

Alpha-Chi-Omega, outstanding contribution to community
service

Bay Area Democratic Women Achievement Award

Sun Reporter Citizen of Merit Award, "Woman of the
Year, 1966"

Assembly Rules Committee, California Legislature,
Resolution of commendation for many civic contributions
to Berkeley and for having "fought racial discrimination
wherever it existed."

California Congress of Parents and Teachers, Inc.,
Honorary Service Award (Life Membership)

National Congress of Negro Women, Inc. "Outstanding
Woman of Northern California" (one of ten)

The Ethnic Minority Association of California,
outstanding leader in recreation leisure service

National Council of Negro Women, Bay Area, pioneer
member, recognition of service

San Pablo Neighborhood Council Community Service

City of Berkeley, Mayor Warren Widener, community service:
improving health and living of citizens

NAACP Life Member

Greyhound Corporation, "Woman of Tomorrow"

City of Berkeley, for many hours of dedicated service
to the elderly through Portable Meals

I GROWING UP IN TUSKEGEE, ALABAMA, 1898-1920

[Interview 1: November 14, 1977]
[begin tape 1, side 1]

Frances Albrier s Mother and Father

Chall: The first interview we always do, Mrs. Albrier, is about a

person s family. We feel that a person s family life, education,
and aspirations determines what a person becomes, so we like to
find out about the family antecedents. Could you tell me some
thing about your family? Start with your birthdate and place of
birth.

Albrier: I was born in Mt. Vernon, New York, September the 21st, 1898 to
Mr. and Mrs. Lewis L. Redgrey.

Chall: Can you tell me something about your mother?

Albrier: Three years later, my mother passed away.

Chall: What was her name?

Albrier: Laura.

Chall: Did she leave a family? Any other children besides you?

Albrier: She left my sister, who was just seven days old.

Chall: Did she die in results of childbirth?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What was your sister s name?

Albrier: Laura Ann. After my mother s passing, she gave me to my grand
mother.

Chall: Your mother did that, knowing that she might be dying?

Albrier: Yes. She felt that she wouldn t live, so she asked my grand
mother to take me and keep me with her as long as she lived.

Chall: Your maternal grandmother, her mother?

Albrier: No. My father s mother. My mother had no people. Her mother
had passed. She had some cousins but she didn t know very much
about them.

Chall: So your father s mother was living?

Albrier: Yes. My father s mother was living. She lived in Tuskegee,
Alabama. My grandmother s always lived in Tuskegee, Alabama.

Chall: How did your mother communicate her wish to your grandmother at
that stage of your life?

Albrier: She went to New York in order to be treated by a specialist. The
lady that she worked for as a cook referred her to the doctor
in Mt. Vernon.

Chall: Did she think this would be a difficult birth?

Albrier: Yes. Because she had had such a difficult birth when I was born.
I was a twin, and the twin passed.

Chall: So, she made this arrangement with your grandmother before she
went to New York?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What did she do about your sister, Laura?

Albrier: My grandmother took her, too, and reared her. My grandmother
was a midwife. She did that type of work.

Chall: What about your father?

Albrier: He went back to Marietta, Georgia. That s where my father and
mother met. He went back there and lived with my grandmother.
My grandmother lived in Atlanta, Georgia for a while before she
went back to Tuskegee. My father came West.

Chall: You didn t know your father well, then, when you were growing
up?

Albrier: No, I didn t know him too well. He came back and forth to see us
all the time. He kept in touch. He took care of my grandmother
because she was rearing my sister and me.

Chall: He provided the financial support?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did he ever remarry?

Albrier: About ten years later, he remarried.

Chall: How long had your parents been married before your mother died?

Albrier: I really don t know just how long they had been married.

My mother was employed. She was quite a chef-cook in her
own right. I don t know the people s name that she cooked for;
they were very wealthy. She did all of the catering for their
company. They were the ones who got in touch with a doctor who
lived in Mt. Vernon. In the meantime, my mother had friends in
Mt. Vernon and she went there to get cared for by this doctor.

Chall: She really went for medical reasons.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did she plan to go back and live in the South, do you think?

Albrier: Yes, she planned to go back and live in the South because her

employers this lady and she were good friends, and she depended
on her to do so many things for her.

Chall: You were born in Mt. Vernon. Was your sister, Laura, born in
Mt. Vernon, too?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That means your mother stayed there for about four years, or did
she return between those two births?

Albrier: She didn t stay. After I was born, she went back.
Chall: I see so she really just went to Mt. Vernon for

Albrier: She was just visiting. She went to Mr. Vernon just for the
doctor.

Chall:

Did your father go with her to Mt. Vernon?

Albrier: I think he did.

Chall: What did your father do? What was his business in Georgia?

Albrier: My father worked for different trades. He learned a great deal
about making chairs, especially cane chairs. He worked in a
large factory as a supervisor in the chair department until he
came West. He was also an excellent cook. He went to school in
Tuskegee and he took up cooking.

Chall: Did your mother go to school in Tuskegee, too? Had she. had an
education like your father?

Albrier: I don t know. My mother didn t go to school in Tuskegee, but it
was one of her ambitions that I_ should attend Tuskegee. She
requested that of my grandmother. That was one of the reasons
she gave me to my grandmother.

She must have really trusted her mother-in-law.
Yes.

What did your father do when he came West? And how far West is
West?

My father came with eight friends they came to Pasadena.
That s West! [Laughter]

In California, my father worked in different jobs. I don t know
just what he did. Some of the jobs involved cooking. He lived
in Pasadena about ten years before he came up to northern
California.

Chall: As far north as Oakland?

Albrier: Berkeley. His first job in Berkeley was with a fraternity.
He took charge of the fraternity and he was their cook and
supervisor. He ran the house for these young men. 1 don t know
which fraternity that was.

Chall: He really had a marketable skill, didn t he?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: He wasn t unemployed very long, I would imagine.

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Albrier: My grandmother always taught us we should learn to sew, which I

never did. She used to say you should learn to sew because people
always have to wear clothes, and learn to cook because they will
always have to eat and they will eat.

Her Grandmother, Johanna Bowen Redgrey

Chall: She was right. What was your grandmother s name?

Albrier: Johanna Bowen.

Chall: Redgrey? She didn t have the name Redgrey your father s name?

Albrier: There s a lot of history about my grandfather s name. My father
had his name changed from Bowen because he said that wasn t his
name. His name was Redgrey.

Chall: So your grandmother then took on the name Redgrey, eventually?

Albrier: They called her Redgrey, but always she was known as Mrs. Bowen.
My grandfather passed and she kept on under the name of Bowen.

Chall: Were your grandmother or your grandfather ever slaves in the
South?

Albrier: My grandmother was a slave; my grandfather wasn t. My grand
father was a Blackfoot Indian, who rambled, and traveled in the
South. His home was in Wyoming in the Dakotas that s where the
Blackfoots lived.

Chall: And he met your grandmother in the South when he was traveling
there? Did he meet your grandmother after she had been a slave
at the end of slavery?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I see when she was more or less free?

Albrier: Yes.

Memories of Slavery

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Did your grandmother ever tell you any stories about that part
of her life?

She said she was eighteen years old when Abraham Lincoln freed
the slaves. But she was not born and reared in Alabama. She
was born in Virginia I think near Richmond, Virginia and
she lived there. Her master had a large large plantation. He
owned many, many slaves. I don t know how many. Her master
there was her father.

And she knew it?

My grandmother was six foot. She had Irish, fair skin and red
hair, and grey eyes. She was a very Irish type and quite strong.
She used to say that her joints were doubled. Her master and
her father went broke just before the war and he had to sell a
lot of them. She said he hated to do that but he couldn t get
around it. She didn t know what financial trouble he had gotten
into. He sold her and two brothers to Bowen in Alabama.

That s the Bowen.
Yes.

Slaves took the names of their masters, so she just assumed the
name of her master at the time.

That s right.

What about her mother?
her in Richmond?

Was her mother in the same household with

My grandmother never discussed her mother, so I don t know whether
she lived or not, or what happened to her.

Because she was so fair skinned and white, I suppose she was
practically passing for white if her hair was red and her eyes
were grey. Did that mean anything to her, do you think, or to
her father at the time that he sold her?

When she was sold and went to Alabama that wasn t Tuskegee. I
don t know just where it was in Alabama. She talked about
Montgomery a lot, but they were near Montgomery. She said that
when she was sold, her master put all of them out in the field.

Albrier: It was the time they were chopping cotton, so that must have

been the springtime. Her master told Bowen that .... She sold
for a large sum of money, something like $800. Bowen was told,
"Don t bother her" because she had a temper and if he made her
angry, "she d kill you." But, "she could do the work of three
people. She was strong and healthy and she would. But don t
bother her "

Chall: The Irish temper. [Laughs]

Albrier: Bowen put her out in the field, chopping cotton when she got

there, after a couple of days. All of them. It seems to me he
had a lot of cotton and it had to be taken care of. Their fields
were weedy and grassy. Chopping the cotton is taking the weeds
and grass from around the cotton so it can grow. He told the
overseer not to bother Johanna, because Johanna will do the work
of two men; don t bother her because she has a temper and she ll
kill you. That meant she wasn t afraid of you.

She said that the overseer came along and she was a row and
a half ahead of all the others the men and all of them. She was
that far ahead of them in chopping the cotton. He was on the
horse, took the whip and hit her. He said, "You can be further
along chopping this cotton." She said, "You see I m a row and a
half ahead of all the rest." But he said, "You could be two rows
ahead of all the rest." She said, "Well, if I m not, you d better
not hit me anymore." So he rode off. In about three or four
hours, he came back and he hit her again. She became so angry
she meant to take the handle of the hoe and hit him knock him
off the horse. She must have taken the hoe she knocked him off
the horse. She didn t know what happened she didn t know
whether she killed him or what happened to him.

All the slaves were excited and ran to the house and got
Master Bowen. Bowen asked her what happened. He said, "I told
him not to bother with you." He saw hox? far ahead she was, and
he said to take him to the house. She never could find out what
happened to that man. She never knew whether she killed him or
not. Nobody would say anything.

She thought she was going to get a good beating because the
slaves would get whipped for doing something. She stayed awake
three months because they would do it at midnight when the people
were asleep. But he didn t. They would take the slaves out at
night and beat them for doing things they shouldn t do. They
must have done that in Virginia where she lived. She didn t know
this Bowen very well. But nothing happened and she never knew
what became of that man. But she felt it was his fault. She

Albrier: knew she was a slave and knew she had to do her work, but she
would die before she d let them mistreat her. So she wouldn t
let them mistreat her.

Chall: Her father understood this. He wasn t fooling when he told people
she had a temper. She had a temper and must have showed it to
her first master.

Albrier: He had given her next owner in Alabama he told him that she had
a temper but could do the work of two other people I mean
three people. And she did her work, but, "don t bother her."

Chall: At first, I thought he was saying that to protect her because she
was his daughter.

Albrier: He knew she had a temper. Evidently she had shown it. She was
trustworthy. Another thing my grandmother said afterwards was
that she was sold for $830. She had a brother who was sold for
$600. She said it was a case of money. My grandmother didn t
know economics, but I know from the way she talked that she
understood it was a case of economics.

Here was the overseer who was just a poor white man, who
was mistreating her. But she had cost her owner eight hundred
and some odd dollars. She was more valuable to him than the
overseer. She always said money is evil and money will cause a
lot of things to happen with people, and it changes peoples lives
and their ideas. Here she was a good slave who worked hard and
had a responsible position. And her own father sold her.

Chall: It s hard to explain any of that.

Albrier: Yes. . Later, when she was I think eighteen or maybe a little
older than that Abraham Lincoln came on the scene. There was
a lot of talk. Sherman came marching through the South. He-
brothers left to go to war to fight against slavery. She never
saw her two brothers again and thinks they were killed, because
they would have come back. She never knew what happened. Some
men came back to the South, but some didn t. She was sure they
would have come back to see her.

She said that Bowen called them one day and told them he
wanted to meet and talk with them. He said, "Someday, we don t
know how soon or how late it will be, but someday you re going
to be as free as I am because Abraham Lincoln is going to free
the slaves. I want you to stay and work for me and take care of
the farm and I ll pay you those of you who want to stay. I
would appreciate your staying. Those who don t want to stay can

Albrier: go. But I m telling you now what s going to happen. I m going
to have to go away on business."

Before he went away, he told my grandmother, "I want you to
take charge of the house and my wife she s sick and the kids."
He told his wife to let Johanna take charge of everything and
don t worry, because "I don t want her killing you. Don t make
her angry; just let her take charge and she ll do everything.
You try to get well because I have to go away." And she did.
There was a boy and a girl and she reared these children.

Chall: Does that mean she stayed on the farm after slavery was abolished?
Albrier: That s right. She stayed.
Chall: And she was paid?

Albrier: His wife died before the Emancipation. Later she moved and
came up to Tuskegee.

Chall: After she was married or .before?
Albrier: After she was married.

Her Grandfather, Lewis L. Redgrey

Chall: Then she met your grandfather while she was working for Bowen.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: In the house.

Albrier: Yes. That s where the confusion of names My grandfather was

Indian. He had his own name and it was two colors. The Indians,
when a child is born or right after it s born the first thing
that the mother sees, they name the child. That s why one may be
named Gray Mare, because she sees a gray mare. It might be
named Robin cause she sees a robin.

Chall: That becomes the name.

Albrier: That becomes the name of the child.

Chall: Does that become their surname?

Albriar: Their given name.

Chall: So your grandfather s name was

Albrier: Redgrey.

Chall: His first name was Red

Albrier: and Grey.

Chall: Are they two .names?

Albrier: Redgrey one name. Some people confuse it with Gregory and

Redgraves. My father took his name. He wouldn t take any of the
other names either. A great many black people changed their names
because they did not want to keep the names of their masters.
Some remembered their African names.

Chall: So your father then took the Redgrey name of his father. Your
grandmother was known as Johanna Redgrey, legally?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Were there any laws which said that blacks couldn t marry Indians?
Or was it just that blacks couldn t marry whites in the South?

Albrier: No, at that time, many Indians took black slaves to their villages
and married them. It was intermarriage with the Indians.

Chall: They took them in purposely to help them be away from their slave
situation? They really helped free them?

Albrier: Yes. There was quite a bit of that after the Emancipation.

Chall: What did your grandfather do in Tuskegee? Was he just traveling
through?

Albrier: He farmed.

Chall: He had his own farm?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: So your mother then moved with him, after she was married onto
the farm?

Albrier: My grandmother.

Chall: Your grandmother, excuse me.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was in where Tuskegee?

Albrier: My grandmother, yes.

Chall: How big was that farm, do you know?

Albrier: It was about fifty-five acres, more or less. Quite a large
farm a fertile farm.

[Intermittent static on tape from this point on.]

Albrier: The majority of farmers raised cotton and all the farmers raised
their food their hogs and corn for the family and for the
animals. Cotton was king for many many years.

Chall: Did your grandfather sharecrop the farm?

Albrier: No, he owned it.

Chall: How had he acquired it the money to own his own farm?

Albrier: I don t know where he acquired the money. My grandfather was

stolen from his tribe by some Spanish people. They took him to
Mexico. He lived with them for a good many years before he
wandered back up the States from Mexico. He could speak Spanish
quite well. He was quite a horseman.

Chall: Your grandfather was quite an independent sort of individual and
your grandmother was independent that must have been quite a
household. Nobody was going to bother them much. How many
children did they have in addition to your own father?

Albrier: They had another son.

Chall: It was a small family. Do you think that was by choice? Do
you have any idea?

Albrier: No, it just happened that way.

Chall: Another brother. What was the brother s name? Your father s
brother.

Albrier: Singleton. He died quite young.
Chall: You never knew him then.
Albrier: No.

Recollections of Life with Her Exceptional Grandmother

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier:

How old do you think your grandmother was when you came to live
with her? She probably always seemed old to you, but she probably
wasn t old. Do you have any idea how old she was?

I imagine my grandmother must have been about fifty-
How old was your mother when she died?

I really don t know how old my mother was when she died. My
mother was quite young. I think she was twenty-five.

Did your grandmother remarry after your grandfather died?
No.

I take it the rest of her life was devoted to rearing you and your
sister.

Yes.

That was in Tuskegee. Tell me how she did it. What kind of person
was she as you knew her, as you were growing up?

My grandmother had gone to school and she worked with doctors. She
was a midwife and an expert baby nurse. She met many wonderful
people who loved her and she thought a great deal of them, in her
lifetime.

When you knew her, was she still living on the family farm?

Yes. She lived in Tuskegee and was there when Booker T. Washington
came. She knew Mr. Adams and the men who sent to Hampton
[Institute] to get somebody to come and start a school. She was
with the group that said we need a school for our children here
because the schools are too far away. Everybody agreed they needed
somebody to start a school and would help support the school. So
Mr. Adams sent to Hampton to send somebody to start a school for
them.

This would have been a school for the black children.

Yes.

They sent Booker T. Washington. My grandmother
:rsons who greeted him

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the persons who greeted him

was one of

Chall: When he came to Tuskegee. Was it planned that this would be an

elementary school, or what kind of school were they thinking about
then?

Albrier: It was to be an elementary school and work according to the needs.
All they wanted was a school to teach the children.

Chall: I don t know much about Tuskegee.

Albrier: The school had to be organized by the teacher that was coming.

Chall: Who was Mr. Adams? Was he a white man in the community? Or was
this all in the black community?

Albrier: He was one of the community, the black community.
Chall: Was this a large black community in Tuskegee?

Albrier: Quite large. The first term of the school was taught in my

grandmother s church, the A.M.E. Zion Church over on Zion Hill.

Chall: This was before your arrival, though?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: This had already been set up by the time you arrived?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Had your father gone to this school?

Albrier: My father went to the school, yes. He was a youngster at that
time.

Chall: So your grandmother must have helped set that up when she had just
barely arrived in Tuskegee, it sounds like.

Albrier: Yes. She had two friends she had adopted as her sisters. One of
these young women was one of the first persons who graduated from
the school.

Chall: She took them on when they were young, then, to give them an
education. She had a strong feeling, then, for education.

Albrier: Yes. She had that strong feeling about education and that s why
she had that feeling about me, that I should go to that school.
And my mother had that same type of feeling.

Chall: Apparently your father agreed and so there was no problem about
turning you over to his own mother.

Religion

Chall: Was there a strong religious activity in the family? Did your
grandmother rear your sister and you in the A.M.E. Zion church?

Albrier: Yes. My grandmother was quite religious and we came up with this
church. It was two churches: Baptist and Methodist. Both were
on a hill. One was on one hill; the other was on the other hill.
One we called Baptist Hill and the other was Methodist Hill. One
group would turn out church one Sunday and worship with the other
one.

Chall: Did they each have a minister?

Albrier: Each had a minister. The Baptists proposed the Baptist faith, that
is, the way they baptize; the Methodists proposed the Methodist
faith. But they were friends and they worked together.

Both of those churches were very close to Booker T. Washington
and the school, doing whatever they could for that school to promote
education for the young black kids in that vicinity and other
places, because the school came to be quite famous and students
came from other states.

Chall: Even as young elementary students? Or high school? Or was it
college when they came to school?

Albrier: Elementary students.

Chall: So that means the children had to be boarded somewhere as little
children?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I see. Away from their parents.

Albrier: They weren t little children; they were young men and women.

Chall: High school age., then.

Albrier: Yes. Some of them were more than that. A lady graduated when I
graduated from school, who was fifty years old. She said if it

Albrier: was the last thing she did, she wanted to get an education.

There were thousands of young black men and women without any
education couldn t read and write.

Tuskegee Institute and Booker T. Washingon

Chall: Who supported Booker T. Washington and the few teachers that he
had? Did the community support them?

Albrier: There was an endowment given by the state to him and the county
and the community.

Chall: So it was a tax-supported school.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was the separate but equal school?

Albrier: Yes. Remember, he said one of the greatest gifts he had was a
dozen eggs. That was from an old lady who brought him a dozen
eggs and said, "Mr. Washington, I only have this dozen eggs but you
take them and use them, because I want to see these boys and girls
get an education."

Chall: Was he a relatively young man when he came to Tuskegee?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: He stayed there until he died, didn t he?

Albrier: Yes. He built the school into a great institution.

Chall: Yes, he did. Do you remember him?

Albrier: Yes. He died in 1915. That was the year I came West.

Chall: So then you went through school knowing him as one of the teachers
and founders. Was he a hero to the community and to the children?
Did you feel that?

Albrier: He was a hero all over the United States. Educational hero. I
didn t feel it at the time. I didn t know he was a famous man
he was just Mr. Washington to us kids. Just a person that we
knew, who headed the school. We didn t realize that he was going
to be so famous. The sane way with Professor Carver. I never

Albrier: realized I was going to school to a distinguished scientist. He
was just another teacher who taught me botany.

Chall: Booker T. Washington did he teach or did he mostly administer
the school?

Albrier: Mr. Washington administered the school. He didn t have time to

teach. He traveled, and lectured, and raised money for the school.
He had many problems and he was starting different things,
especially agriculture. He kept, as long as he lived, a large
night school. Boys and girls came to Tuskegee I d see them come
to Tuskegee with just a little knapsack and ten dollars. Ten
dollars was the entrance fee. That s all they had. But they
wanted to get an education. They felt it was needed. Those
students came to Tuskegee to work their way through school.

There were three or four hundred students at the night school
all the time. They would work on the farm during the day to raise
vegetables for the day school students and in the chicken depart
ment, the dairy department, and all over. They would go to school
just three hours at night, and it took them two years to make one
grade. But they stayed. Many of them finished school and got a
trade.

Chall: When you say they raised the vegetables and food for the school,
does that mean that it was a boarding school for many people?

Albrier: Yes, it was a boarding school, except for those who lived in
Tuskegee, within five or six miles, who lived at home. Some
students lived at home and went to school, but the rest of it
was a boarding school. He never turned away any students who said
they wanted to go to school.

Chall: So many of them just worked

Albrier: That s why he traveled all over the United States and raised money
to build Tuskegee. It became larger and larger. They added to
the curriculum and added trade after trade. He said they had to
learn because slaves like him he went to school and worked vera
turned out without knowing anything. They only knew how to raise
cotton. There were many students who came and took up different
trades. Today they still take up those different trades farmers,
shoemakers, cooks, carpenters all of those types of trade that
they came to learn.

Chall: Your father learned how to cane chairs as well as cook, so your
father had two trades.

Albrier: I mentioned he learned more about the cooking there than he did
the cane chairs. He learned that in a factory.

Chall: He was turned out of school as a cook, then?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: When did you start to school? At the elementary level? You
started the first grade at Tuskegee?

Albrier: I started first grade at Children s House.
Chall: What was that?

Albrier: That was a grammar school where the teachers children lived, and
the children of other people in the community went to this school.
It was called Children s House.

Chall: How did you get there? Did you walk to school?

Albrier: I walked to school. All of the kids walked to school. I walked to
school unless I wanted a ride. If I d ride, I d ride on my pony.

Chall: [Chuckles] You were living on your grandmother s farm?

The Importance of an Education

Chall: What do you remember of your elementary school years? Anything
special that you liked, and teachers that you especially liked?

Albrier: You mean certain teachers?

Chall: Yes. Was there something about school that you either liked or

disliked [chuckles] when you started out? Because you really have
gone a long way on your education, I thought maybe you could tell
me something that you can remember about the school. Did you like
school when you first started out as a little girl?

ALbrier: I always liked school; always had a lot of fun in school. My

grandmother instilled in me the value of going to school and getting
an education.

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2]

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

You were saying you knew how important an education was .
instilled in you; so you liked school.

It was

I could see so many students coining to school to get an ediication,
so I knew it must be something one needed very badly or there
wouldn t be so many students coming far and near, who were working
long hours during the day and going to school at night. So, to
get an education meant it was something valuable and needed.
Besides, my grandmother said that one must have an education to
have a good life and to become something worthwhile in life. To
do things for others in life, one must have an education. We were
quite fortunate because so many of the black people in slavery were
denied education. All the teachers told us that we owed something
to the race we owed something to other black people. The only way
we could help bring them up from where they had come from was
through education.

So you had that instilled in you from the time you were very
young?

Yes.

Prejudice and the Teachings Against Bitterness

Chall: If Tuskegee was primarily a black community, was there much inter
relationship with whites?

Albrier: No. No. There was a lot of prejudice. Only in employment. The
blacks lived over on their side of the city and the whites lived
on the other. It s quite remarkable, now that I look back,
because Tuskegee has a black mayor now. Before, that was
unthinkable. A white person would think he was downgrading himself
if he voted for a black mayor, but that s how times have changed
and I m glad that I have lived to see that time change.

Chall: Was there any communication at all in your family, then, with the
white community? Did your grandmother act as midwife and nurse
to White families?

Albrier: My grandmother had many white friends. Yes, she acted as midwife
and nurse to many white families. She would attend to them
give them medicines. Her teas and brews she was quite an
herbalist. She would save, and she knew all the herbs. For miles
around, my grandmother was the only person who could cure a
rattlesnake bite if she got to them in time. If I had known like

Albrier: I know now, I could have been quite an herbalist and known the
different herbs that she used.

She always said that beside a poison weed is an antidote.
Nature always provided it. For instance poison oak a great many
kids would come to her, and their parents would send them to her
for what to do about a bad case of poison oak. She would go out
in the woods and get a certain weed I called it a weed and brew
it, make a tea, and bathe them with it, and have them drink some
of it, and cure that poison oak.

Chall: Do you think she learned that as part of the lore when she was on
the farm as a slave?

Albrier: Yes. And with other slaves and other people.

Chall: They had to take care of themselves.

Albrier: They had to take care of themselves.

Chall: So it was just part of their own culture.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What was the feeling toward the white community? On the one hand,
ypu were isolated and separated and given a feeling that you must
help bring up the race. On the other hand, you recognized
isolation and prejudice. How did you all react to that?

Did it make you bitter and prejudiced yourselves, dealing with
the prejudice of others?

Albrier: It was according to the environment and the people you were

around. I never became bitter because my grandmother wouldn t
let me. I remember reading Uncle Tom s Cabin and I became so
angry about the way Uncle Tom was treated. I said to my grand
mother I could kill all the white people and throw them in the
river. She started with me then and said, "No you can t; you
must not be bitter because that will kill you. Bitterness will
kill you. You must trust in God and ask for God s love, just like
Uncle Tom did, and that is the thing that s going to save the
world; not bitterness, and envy, and fighting." She kept telling
me that and drilling that in me, that I came up without the bitter
ness that a great many blacks had in the South.

Chall: Understandably they would have it.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Well, she was a remarkable person when you come to think of what
she accomplished, not only in her own life but what she
accomplished in rearing you and, I presume, your sister.

Albrier: She became very religious and said she received the power from
God through prayer. In the wee hours of the morning out in the
woods, she would pray. They would go out and pray in slavery days
and they had to be very quiet because if they were caught having
church and praying, they would be whipped.

Chall: I didn t know that.
Albrier: That s right.

Chall: And yet they had been taught the Christian religion over the years
as they came through slavery. Certainly, somebody had been a
missionary out in the fields.

Albrier: They were taught a certain amount. They were allowed to go to
church, but the minister always had certain chapters to read.
"Slaves, obey your master," and things like that. They were
taught that. They were taught that there was going to be some
evolution or something in the minds of people God was going to
direct it that there would be no more slavery. When
Abraham Lincoln came on the scene, they knew, and said that was
the answer to prayers; not only their prayers; but a great many
good white people. My grandmother had white friends who did not
believe in slavery. They were abolitionists.

Chall: Her release, if she felt any pressures, came I suppose from
prayer.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And her church was the Methodist.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did your sister grow up with the same attitudes towards life as
you have?

Albrier: Yes, practically.

Chall: That s a strong grandmother.

Albrier: [Chuckles] I think my sister s more religious than I am.

Chall: You went into the community in a different way from the path of
your grandmother. You could direct some of your energies to

Chall: changing the social world around you by getting into it, whereas
your grandmother really couldn t, could she?

Albrier: No. My grandmother always believed that you had to fight and

earn what you got. She often talked about earning respect from
people; that you couldn t be disrespectful; you couldn t have a
mean disposition and have people like you. That you had to earn
the respect and earn their love and their likeness. Even if they
disrespected you, you return respect because it will come back to
you. In her simple way, those were her instructions and her
teachings for all the kids. She used to teach Sunday school.
[Chuckles]

Chall: [Laughs] So the message went beyond the two of you?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What about her temper as you knew her? Did she have that under
control, or did you ever see her lose her temper?

Albrier: It was under control. I never saw her with a temper.
Chall: It was her way of defending herself as a slave.

Albrier: Yes, but she always told us that we had to defend ourselves and
we had to fight for anything worthwhile, to earn it.

Chall: But not with your fists.

Albrier: Not with our fists. She said with education, with prayer, with
goodness and respect for people and love for people which I
didn t all the time. [Laughter]

Chall: It s a hard way to live, isn t it? You can try.

Albrier: My grandmother loved her master, and I never would have. She
always found excuses.

Chall: Is that Mr. Bowen?

Albrier: Yes. And she found excuses for her father for selling them. She
said he just couldn t help it. He had so much pressure.

Chall: She accepted her role as a slave as best she could. It was just
her way of life and she accepted it.

Albrier: Yes, and she said God had blessed her to be born strong and brave
so she could fight back, and that she had the strength to work and

Albrier: do what they asked her to do. And that was work. She could turn
out so much work. She said that was a gift from God. But all the
slaves didn t have that gift, so she had to do more.

Chall: She was in a sense always helping her fellows, one way or another.
Albrier: Yes, she was.

Chall: Quite a remarkable person, I would say. Besides church, what else
did she do in the community? Was that her prime work, and her job
as a midwife?

Albrier: There were many activities in Tuskegee in the school. She took a
great deal of time and gave a great deal of work to the Mothers
Club. They didn t have PTAs then; they had Mothers Clubs, I
imagine. She worked diligently in the Mothers Club with
Mrs. Washington and other teachers.

Chall: What do you think she was trying to do in the club?

Albrier: The club would raise money; have pie and cake sales, and raise
money for students who weren t able to go to school or to pay
for uniforms or books. They had many students like that they tried
to take care of through this Mothers Club. The Mothers Club
extended all over the United States. My grandmother knew people
who left Tuskegee white people. They went North and to Chicago.
They would gather up clothing and send it back to the Mothers Club
for needy students and that type of thing. All students that
came, benefitted. There weren t too many students who were able
to pay their way through school. By the way, I have to think how
far advanced our money has come. At that time, ten dollars was a
lot of money. It s worth a hundred now. Ten dollars was tuition
and ten dollars a month room and board.

Chall: Even then, for the average black person, it was probably hard
to come by that ten dollars.

Albrier: Yes. That s why those students would get there with just that first
ten dollars tuition.

Chall: Just come in.
Albrier: Just come in.
Chall: For a whole year?

The Purpose of the Tuskegee Academic-Vocational Program

Albrier: Just paid their ten dollars tuition for a whole year. They didn t
have anything else no more money. Those were the ones who worked
their way through school. They were so enthused about getting an
education and learning a trade. Those were the ones who learned
to be the carpenters, farmers, dressmakers. It was a school that
is really needed today .

Chall: Vocational training.

Albrier: Vocational training. Because we went to school three days a week
they had academic studies three days a week. I was so young and
those boys and girls were much older. I was just a kid and played
my way through school. I would say, "I believe I want to be a
dressmaker." I d go into dressmaking class and baste, and that s
as far as I d get. Then I d get tired and restless. The teachers
would let me go because they knew I was going to advance more.
My grandmother was going to send me away to school if I finished
Tuskegee. There were quite a few young students like that going
to school. We were really out of place because some of the
students were grown men and women who were coming there to school.

Chall: The school was set up so that anybody, at whatever level he was,

came into a classroom regardless of his age and had the same three
days?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: You only went to school three days and the other two were spent
on

Albrier: your trade; your vocation. Everything was geared to that

vocation. I remember I asked why I had to learn how many shingles
it takes to go on a trapezoid roof. Arithmetic and questions
were geared along trade. The boys would say, "Why do I have to
learn how many cubic inches in a cake pan?" If he was going to be
a baker, he had to learn. They d complain, "I m not going to be a
baker; I m going to be a tailor," or, "I m going to be a farmer;
I m going to be a chicken rancher, or, I m going to be a dairyman."

Chall: The other days were what reading and writing and history the
academic days?

Albrier: The academic days, yes. The other days, including Saturday, they
worked on different trades. They were out learning. Every year
at graduation time, that was one of the displays at Tuskegee for

Albrier: the visitors a great big stage and on the stage were all of

these trades. When the whistle blew, they d begin to shoe a horse.
One machine was going. There was cooking going to show how it was
done. Hundreds of students learned and were sent out well equipped.

Now today, I m on the CETA [Comprehensive Employment Training
Act] board. It came up with the commissioners one night about a
shoe repair shop. They didn t think it should be that much money
that it would be well spent. I said to them that I know just about
every large city in the United States has a shoe repair shop owned
and run by a Tuskegeean who learned that trade in Tuskegee,
Alabama. People always are going to wear shoes and have to have
shoes repaired. They re going to have to have heels lowered, heels
made higher. They need a good repair man and a man who knows about
shoes .

Chall: That s interesting. You ve been attached to the alumni association
for many years from Tuskegee, so I assume you know how good that
training has been. Those people always managed to have employment
then, once they went out?

Albrier: Yes. We had a doctor a young man who hand t finished his training
and had to get out of school at Meharry because he had no money.
But he had gone to Tuskegee and learned to be a skilled shoe
repairman. So he just went to work in Chicago and finally he had
his own shop, and finally he built three shops of shoe repairing,
and taught other young people. Then he went on back to medical
school.

But that was Booker T. Washington s idea. We would say to
him, "Why don t we have enough mathematics in the school? Why
are we lower in our mathematics problems? Why don t we have more
chemistry in the school? Why do we have to graduate and go to
other schools to pick up those subjects?" He would say, "This
school, while I live, is not for professionals; high learning.
This school will teach you a trade and help you to go to the higher
learning schools get a higher education, because you will have a
skilled trade to earn it with."

That s what the black boys and girls needed because none of
them were backed with money to go to school, or parents who had
the money to give them the education that they wanted. But when
they finished Tuskegee, they all had a skilled trade. They could
earn their money to go on to a higher school. That s what the
masses needed and that s what Booker T. Washington, George Washing
ton Carver, and all of them did for the masses of Negroes.

Chall:

In your case, they assumed that your grandmother had your higher
education in mind and you were going on to some professional
school.

Albrier: Yes.

The Transition to Howard University: Vocational Choices

Chall: So, what in fact, did you do? At what point did you leave
Tuskegee to go to another school?

Albrier: I left Tuskegee and lived with one of my grandmother s friends in
Memphis, Tennessee and went to Fisk for half a year. Then I
went on to Howard.

Chall: Why did you stay at Fisk just the half year?

Albrier: I didn t quite like it as well. I thought I d get more out of
school at Howard and I had friends there.

Chall: What were you then, about seventeen or eighteen ready for
college?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What did you have in mind when you went either to Fisk or to
Howard? What were your goals then?

Albrier: I always was attracted I wanted to be a nurse. I wanted to be a
professional. I didn t know what course I wanted to take up in
nursing. I wanted to be a teacher or take up a higher course in
nursing than a graduate nurse, or to teach nursing. I was going
around in a circle; I just didn t know then.

Chall: You knew you were going to be a nurse.
Albrier: I wanted to be a nurse.

Chall: What did they give you at Howard? Was there a nurses training
school in Howard?

Albrier: Yes. I didn t have the subjects that I should have had, and I

had to take general education. By that time, I decided that I d
like to be a social worker.

Chall: So, then what did you do? That s quite a switch. For nursing,
you d be required to take a certain amount of chemistry, extra
work in the physical sciences, and you wouldn t have to do that
with social work, would you?

Albrier: No.

Chall: Did you not like the sciences?

Albrier: I liked the sciences quite well. It helped me in the social work
field. I was more adequate in dealing with people; with discern
ment with people s problems. It made me a better social worker
than I would have been a nurse.

Chall: How far along in the nurses training did you get before you
switched fields?

Albrier: Two years.

Chall: That was at Howard?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Then you switched while you were at Howard to social welfare?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did that create any problems? Were there any members of the
staff who said no, you shouldn t be doing this?

Albrier: No.

Chall: They let you do it.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What did your grandmother

Albrier: They knew I was wandering around and hadn t found my way. A

great many students are like that, especially those in the South.
They see so much and they realize that there are so many fields .
Oh, I can be of value to my race and my people if I take this or
if I take that. They become kind of lost until they can find
themselves find what they can better do to create an ambition
to help people, to help the race. In my day and time, that was
instilled in us through all of the organizations, even through
the churches. The pastors would tell us that we had to do some
thing for our people. We were told that whatever we did reflected
not only on us, but the entire race.

Chall: What a burden. That s quite a burden to carry with you.

Albrier: It s quite a burden, but it makes you very careful. For instance,
if I should go out and pick a fight and injure somebody, that not
only would hurt me, it would hurt the entire race, because I was
a black person. I was doing something; I had no business reflect
ing on the race because the whole world was looking at us because
we were coming out.

Chall: Did your grandmother have any special goal in mind for you
except that you would progress in a professional field?

Albrier: No, she didn t. Just as long as I stayed in school and got an
education and finally found what I would want to do.

Chall: Howard is where?

Albrier: Washington.

Chall: Washington, D.C. You went quite a way from home.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was that your first experience far from home?

Albrier: No, I had been away from home quite a bit. I d visited any

number of cities with my classmates. They would invite me in
the summer.

Chall: Out of Tuskegee?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How far afield did you go?

Albrier: Oh, I d go up to Memphis; I d go to Atlanta, Georgia. There

were schools in those different places. Some of the students
were coming to Tuskegee; some were leaving Tuskegee, going to
those schools. I had classmates who were going to different
schools. Some were going back to school. I had several who
went back to Birmingham to public schools because they had built
a better public school in their vicinity. They returned. It
cost less money.

Chall: Did you board at Howard?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: With family friends or just with people who were near the campus?

Albrier: The first year, I boarded with friends; the second year, I was on
campus .

Chall: Did you have to work at all while you were at Howard, or did your
family support you?

Albrier: Yes, I worked in the library.

Chall: By this time, were your father and grandmother still able to send
you any funds, or were you on your own?

Albrier: No, they were able to send me little funds.

Chall: Tuition, and books

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did you like it at Howard?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: You graduated with a B.A. from Howard [1920]. Then what did you
plan to do and then what did you do?

Albrier: Just before I graduated, my grandmother passed. Then I came West
with my father.

Chall: He was here in Berkeley?

Albrier : Yes .

Chall: What about your sister? Where was she at that time?

Albrier: My sister was in Tuskegee. But she came to Pasadena to cry father,
My father had married then.

Chall: Your sister came, then, before you came.

Albrier: Yes, about a year before I came.

Chall: Did she go to college here in this area?

Albrier: She went to school in Pasadena. I think she went to school here,
too, for six months or so, to public school. Then my father
went down to Pasadena to live.

Chall: So you came to Berkeley, is that right, as a college graduate?
You were then what, about twenty-one?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was a different experience, I would guess [laughs] from

Howard and Tuskegee. What was it like when you came to Berkeley
in those days? Can you recall the way you felt about it?

Moving to Berkeley, California and Marriage. 1920

Albrier: I had been used to seeing many Negro people doing many different
things, and there weren t many Negro people here at the time, and
I was kind of lost. I just settled down to see what could be
done. In the meantime, I married.

Chall: Did you marry someone from here in Berkeley?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was the first marriage. I ve forgotten the name of your
first husband.

Albrier: Jackson [William Albert] .

Chall: What was he doing here?

Albrier: He was going to school, studying to be an engineer.

Chall: He died rather soon after not too many years after you were
married?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: You had one child, as I recall. Did you have one child?

Albrier: No, I had three children.

Chall: With Mr. Jackson?

Albrier: Yes. A boy and two girls.

Chall: What s your boy s name?

Albrier: William Albert.

Chall: Was he first?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Then your girls.

Albrier: Betty Frances [Kimble] and Anita [Black].

Chall: How far along as an engineer did he get in school? Did he
graduate?

Albrier: He graduated. First he did some work in engineering and graduated
from the University of Arizona first. Then he came to Berkeley
to take up some other courses in engineering. I forget what
courses.

Chall: That s when you met him here?
Albrier : Yes .

Chall: Then what kind of job did he have to support his growing family of
three children?

Albrier: He first had a job in a construction camp, teaching them the stress
of some building that I can t even explain. But he was with the
construction company for a good while. He couldn t get very much
work at the time in engineering.

Chall: Black engineers

Albrier: He became very bitter about it.

Chall: It s interesting that he would have gone through the University
of Arizona as a black student in engineering, which was, I would
think, unusual.

Albrier: Very young, his mother passed in Oklahoma and he left to go into

the army. He got a lot of his education and training in the army.
He was a young black and had some education. The army, at that
time, had many black men, who didn t have any education. They
depended on those young black men who had education to assist the
army with those who didn t. He did a lot of teaching. That s when
he got through Arizona. He was stationed at Fort Huachuca in
Arizona at that time.

Job Options Closed to Negroes: Handling the Frustrations

Chall: Then he went to the college part-time, or whatever he could and
got an engineering degree?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was one kind of skill for which blacks weren t wanted.

Albrier: They weren t wanted and he wasn t prepared.

Chall: For that prejudice.

Albrier: For that prejudice. The same way, when I came West, they

weren t prepared for black nurses. They just said, "Well, I know
you re qualified, but we just don t hire black nurses."

Chall: Nor black engineers.

Albrier: They didn t say black at that time. It was Negro. "We just don t
hire Negro nurses." So I thought I d better go back South because
in the South they did hire Negro nurses. Even white doctors had
Negro nurses in their offices.

Chall: They did?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I didn t know that.

Albrier: Out here. They didn t have them.

Chall: Because you d had two years in nurses training, did that qualify
you to be a nurse in some way or another? Had you thought of
doing some nursing here?

Albrier: Yes, I could have done

Chall: Practical nursing?

Albrier: Practical nursing, yes. Undergraduate work.

Chall: So you tried that?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And that was a closed door.

Albrier: That was a closed door. I did work for awhile for Doctor I
can t think of his name

Chall: It will come to you later,

Albrier: But he s a doctor who did a lot of obstetrics. Women were having
babies at home then. I worked with him a long time.

Chall: What about the field of social work? Did you try that? Was there
any place for you in social work that you d finally gotten your
training in?

Albrier: No, there wasn t any field open in social work then at the time.

Chall: So your career options were closed to you, too, weren t they,
when you got here to the so-called free West?

Albrier: Yes. Then when I got married and the children came, I took up
most of the time with them.

Chall: And your husband had a job, but not what he wanted.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Were you able to cope with the bitterness that came over him?
How did you handle his feeling of bitterness?

Albrier: It was very hard and very tragic the bitterness with him. He was
so terribly bitter. At that time, he was taking on the idea he
had a lot of friends in San Francisco who were Russians. He was
taking on the Bolshevik idea I think that s what they called
themselves then.

Chall: I see. Yes, this was in the early 20s, wasn t it?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Right after the Russian Revolution.

Albrier: Yes. He was very bitter so much that it was a matter of hatred.
He would become very, very angry if he applied for a job and they
said, "We can t use you because we don t use Negroes."

Chall: Did you manage to keep that feeling of bitterness cut of your

system? That philosophy that your grandmother had instilled in
you, did you manage to keep that on top?

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier:
Chall :

Albrier:
Chall :
Albrier:

I didn t get a lot of bitterness that I hated people. I felt
sorry for them. My grandmother had told me to feel sorry for
those people because they don t know what they re doing and
they re going to have to reap a lot of those things, and not you.
But you must fight to remedy those things. Instead of becoming
bitter, I developed a sense of retaliation and fighting.

Through the system?

Through the system. I think that s what brought me into politics
and that brought me to resent not having any black teachers in
schools, and all those kinds of activities that I got into.

But your husband, Mr. Jackson, didn t see it that way?

No.

Did that cause any problems between you?

Well, in a way, because he became so bitter that he wasn t a
very good provider at the time. It brought on some problems.

Do I understand that he died or were you divorced?
He died.

So that left you with three small children. That was not easy,
either.

Can we stop now?
Yes, we can.

I have a meeting at four at Chaparral House,
[end tape 1, side 2]

II FURTHER RECOLLECTIONS OF LIFE IN TUSKEGEE AND THE HOWARD
UNIVERSITY EXPERIENCE

[Interview 2: November 30, 1977]
[begin tape 2, side 1]

Tuskegee

The Family Home: Farming, Canning, Cleaning

Chall: I want to go back and find out something more about your home in
Tuskegee with your grandmother. Would you describe the house
that you lived in there. It was her home and it was where your
father grew up, as I understand it. How big was it? Was it a
frame house?

Albrier: It was a frame house painted white, and had eight rooms.
Chall: Eight!

Albrier: It had a huge basement. Most of the houses had basements because
of storage. People like my grandmother stored vegetables and
fruits for winter because it got very cold there. My grandmother
always had a huge garden that she took care of, plus chickens.
It was through her garden chickens that she was able to send me
through school. She had all kinds of fowl: turkeys, geese,
guineas, Rhode Island Reds, White Rocks.

I remember one time she wanted a very fine rooster and she
paid twenty five dollars. We thought that was an awful lot of
money to pay, but it was a pedigreed, fine rooster. She bought
him from back East somewhere. She had choice eggs and choice
chickens. I remember taking the chickens to people. One
neighbor wanted to order a hen for roasting. She would call and
tell my grandmother to pick her out a nice hen. She wanted to

Albrier: have a roast for dinner. I would take the hen. It was only fifty
cents! Why, to look back now you can t get a big fat, about
three or four pound hen for fifty cents.

Chall: You can hardly find a hen.

Albrier: That s what the money was at that time. She had a large garden.
She raised everything in the garden. There was a large straw
berry patch. It was one of my jobs to pick strawberries and to
sell strawberries to the neighbors; pick blackberries and
dewberries when they came in and sell them to the neighbors, and
to people. Besides, my grandmother would can a great many of
those things in jars.

One thing about my grandmother and her garden I always
remembered. She would plant two rows. She said one row was for
me, and half a row is for friends, and the other half is for
anybody, because she knew that people would come and take some
of the things out of the garden; so she provided for them.

She was that way in her canning. She canned food for her
own family; then she would can food for neighbors; then she
would can three or four jars extra for people who came along
who were poorer families and needed it.

Chall: In terms of neighbors, did that mean that the neighbors could
purchase the food that was canned?

Albrier: Yes, that s right. She would give it to them if they were in
need. They didn t have welfare or anything like that. The
neighbors and church people took care of each other. Oftentimes,
it was a poor family coming off the farms. There were a great
number of families moving all the time to Tuskegee from
plantations where they raised nothing but cotton. They wanted
the children to go to school, to Mr. Washington, as they called
him. They wouldn t have much food. My grandmother always had
extra cans of food there for those people.

Chall: Was this a common thing to do?

Albrier: It was a common thing for her and her missionary society, which
was the African Methodist Episcopal Church.

Chall: That was the way the community, the black community, took care of
its own.

Albrier: That s right. Then after Mr. Washington came and started the

school, that was another reason why she canned extra food, too,

Albrier: because she would give a lot to the school. A great number of the
older women at that time did. They helped him in the early days
of the school that way. My grandmother s youngest sister was one
of his first graduates. She and Miss Lucile Lane s (over on
Ashby) mother were the first graduates of Tuskegee, of
Booker T. Washington. That was 1800-some thing.

Chall: We can look that up.

Albrier: I ll look it up. I think I have the diploma.

Chall: What kind of help did she have on her farm? I think you also
mentioned she had a cow and pigs.

Albrier: My grandfather was quite a farmer, too. She had about fifteen
more than fifteen acres. I don t remember just how many acres,
but quite a large farm.

Chall: After your grandfather died, how did she handle all that when
there wasn t a man in the house?

Albrier: She would hire students and neighbors. There was always a great
number of students who needed to earn some money to go to school.
And people in the community.

Chall: Was that their way of getting some kind of funds?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did she give them cash or was it an exchange of goods?

Albrier: She would do both.

Chall: What were your chores around the house?

Albrier: My chores I helped wash all those chickens and fowl. I had to
water them to see that the troughs were full of water all the
time. And feed them. I d help my grandmother sell them, and
deliver them, and deliver eggs to the people who ordered eggs, and
chickens .

Chall: And your sister? Did she have to do the same things as she got
old enough?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did your grandmother clean the chickens and take the feathers off
before she sold them?

Albrier: She cleaned them for some, and others didn t want them cleaned.
Others she sold alive, on foot and they did the cleaning. Many
raised chickens of their own after starting them from those they
bought. For some of the older women, and older families, and
friends of hers, she did it herself because she had the hot water
and the troughs and everything. She received a great deal of
help on how to run her farm through the school. They used her
farm as an example.

Chall: What about inside the house? What kind of chores were there
inside for keeping the house clean? Who cleaned the house
indoors?

Albrier: We all cleaned the house indoors. My grandmother s kitchen floor
was oak. I remember she would pound up brick and mix it in with
lye that she dripped through the ashes. The lye was made from
water that she dripped through oak ashes and mixed it with pound-
up brick; and we would scrub that floor. That floor was as white
as could be. You could eat off it; and the sink, too.

Chall: Did she make her own soap with the lye and grease as well?

Albrier: Yes, she would make her own soap from the lye and grease for
washing clothes and cleaning.

Chall: You say she had hot water. Does that mean that she

Albrier: We had a big range with a hot water back you don t see them
nowadays. As the fire burned, it heated the water. It was
connected to a faucet.

Chall: Inside?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: You had indoor water then. You didn t have to go out and pump it?

Albriar: No. She had a pump two wells and two hand pumps. I don t
remember before, but when the school developed, they ran
electricity out to the neighbors. They connected up pumps and
plumbing for the neighbors. But before then, everything had to be
done by hand. They would wash had washtubs and would draw the
water from the well or go to the spring. My grandmother had a
huge spring, a beautiful spring; I used to like to see the
water bubble up out of the ground and think what a miracle it
was when I was a child. Then the water would run on out in a
stream on down through the farm. The cows would drink it. Then
we had the wells. My grandfather was a well digger, so he knew.

Albrier: They laugh nowadays at people saying they would take a twig and
find where water is. But my grandfather used to do that. He
never made mistakes.

Chall: That s right, the water witch.

Albrier: He told the farmers that if you dig your well here, you ll get
water. If you dig over there where you are, you won t get
anything. They would try. They wouldn t pay any attention, but
they d come back and dig it where he told them. He would tell
them they d have to dig about thirty feet before hitting water.
Dig another ten feet and you ll hit another stream, and you ll
have a good well of water.

Family Standards and Discipline

Chall: Was your grandmother a stern disciplinarian? She had to rear the
two of you girls. I suppose by that time she was getting a
little older and she might have begun to have different ideas
about child rearing than she did when she was rearing your
father. But I wonder. Did she rear the two of you just about
the same way?

Albrier: My grandmother was like all the old people in those days. They
believed in obedience and they demanded you to obey. That was
one of the main prerequisites of the family that you had to
obey. You mustn t lie, and you mustn t steal, and you must
listen.

I remember my grandmother gave me a lesson in listening.
She told me to go to the store and get some flour, and soice sugar,
lard, and something else. I couldn t remember. I went to the
store and got three things and I couldn t remember, so she made
me stand up on the floor until I could think what she told me to
get, because she said I wasn t listening. "And if you go through
life you re a little black girl and you ll have to listen to
what people say. If you have a job, people don t want to tell
you two, three times. So you just think what I told you that
other." I guessed it finally guessed it. It was sugar.
[Laughter] I named things and when I got to sugar, she didn t
say anything; so I knew it was sugar. So, I went to the store
and got the sugar. But that was quite a lesson. After that, I
always listened to what she was saying. It was a valuable lesson
for me that I didn t appreciate until later on in years.

Chall :

Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

I guess in the slave days, and even prior to that, what we know
about the African tradition, is that it was oral. If you were
going to pass information on from one generation to another about
your own past history, you had to listen. As I understand it,
some children were trained to pass on their background to the
next generation.

Yes, it was oral.

And they had to be good listeners.

Yes, and good observers.

So she trained you in the same thing,
and write; did she ever learn that?

Did she know how to read

She didn t know how to read and write real well, but she could
read, and she could write a normal letter. She was taught how to
read by a lady who lived in the house one of the white ladies
who was a teacher in her master s house before she was sold.
She taught her how to read and write because she wanted to read
the Bible and she wanted to know how to write her name. So they
would steal off and have their lessons, because it wasn t popular
for slaves to learn how to read and write.

I think this lady was an abolitionist from what my grand
mother said about her and from what I ve read. She might have
been an abolitionist who worked among the slaves in those days
and tried to help them. My grandmother knew Sojourner Truth;
they were great friends.

Is that so? How did she happen to know her?

My grandmother attended some church convention on some plantation
and she met her at that time.

And they kept in contact with each other?

Yes. She knew her quite well after the Emancipation and slavery
was abolished. She met her because she went East quite often.

Your grandmother?

Yes. She would go East to church conventions, mostly church
conventions. Church organizations.

Was this affiliated with the African Methodist Church?
Yes.

Chall :

Albrier :

Chall:

Albrier:

Obviously, she must have been a leader in her church. Was it
just among the women that she was a leader or was she a leader
among the congregation itself? Had the men recognized her as
a leader?

Yes, in the congregation itself,
recognized her.

The bishops and the ministers

In terms of the leadership, in those days, do you remember whether
an outstanding woman was recognized by the community, or whether
women were expected to leave the leadership to the men?

Well, the men were expected to be the leaders and not the women.
But women were leaders. They were leaders in their family and
in the women s groups.

[From here on, static caused by some mechanical problem in the microphone,
blocked out most of the dialogue. The interview was retrieved through a
combination of using the outline of questions, and Mrs. Albrier s pains
taking care in filling in the missing words, sentences, and in some cases,
lengthy explanations of issues and events.]

Communication: Telephones, Magazines, Women s Clubs

Chall:

Albrier:

What was the general way to communicate in Tuskegee? Was it by
phone or through other personal contacts?

It was a good many years before we had a telephone. I remember
when they first put in a telephone. They had them in school, but
didn t have them in the community. When they ran those first
lines, the line was a post with two wires.

A family named Patterson was having a telephone. There were
two Patterson brothers and they had a trucking business. They
hauled everything for people. They put in a telephone in their
office which was in their home. Many people in the community went
to see how the telephone would work. It was the kind that you
pulled and rang a bell to get an answer after repeating the number
by dialing. The Pattersons were the first family who had a
telephone. They were ideal neighbors, and if important messages
came for any of the neighbors, they would give them the message
later. Later my grandmother got her own telephone.

Chall: How would your grandmother know when she was needed as a midwife?

Albrier: They would send her the message through neighbors and friends.
People in the twenties and thirties were neighborly and felt a
responsibility for each other. Children would also be
messengers. They received a nickel or a dime for their service.

Chall: What newspapers or magazines did you have in the community?

Albrier: We didn t have any newspapers. Later, we had a little school
paper, but we didn t have any newspapers in those days, that I
know of. I read magazines, but I read them in the library
usually. The library had those. The community and organizations
like the Mothers Club gave money to the library to furnish the
library with periodicals that they thought the children should
read. Students were encouraged to read, along with their home
work.

Chall: Would the women and men use the school library?

Albrier: Well, some of them would. I know one which was very popular
that the women read was Parents Magazine. There were also
Bible literature and other magazines, in order to increase their
knowledge about the nation and the world in general. There
were children s books for children that encouraged them to use
the library. This was to encourage the youth in this habit a way
to obtain knowledge. The older citizens would go to the library
and read.

Many citizens, young and old, had been denied education and
they were eager to obtain an education in order to advance them
selves in their employment and the community. I taught several
older people how to read and write their names. They expressed
the wish to write their names and to be able to read the Bible.
This is true in the rural South even today. There are many
citizens, black and white, as was disclosed by the army, who
could not read or write.

My grandmother was a friend of the great emancipator,
Harriet Tubman, who, like Booker T. Washington, knew the great
need of education for the thousands of black youth in the cities
and plantations in the South. They were also in the North, but
the majority was in the South.

She talked with Harriet Tubman a lot on that. They had a
Mothers Club. It was a very active club and women would come down
to the school to lecture. What they lectured on, I don t know,
because we kids weren t in this. But Mrs. Washington was able to
get many capable, fine women from the North who wanted to do those
things, to come down and lecture and talk to the women of the

Albrier: Mothers Club. That was the beginning of the Association of

Colored Women s Clubs. They were a member of that association.
It was started in New York by Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin.

They wanted to socialize and exchange ideas with the other
women in the North. There were more women in the clubs in the
North than in the South where they weren t quite as well organized.
Naturally, they were organized around the school, and the teachers
in the school went out into the neighborhood and organized the
women in the neighborhood with my grandmother. So they had this
large Mothers Club. Usually, those women also had children in the
school. It was their great ambition that their children get an
education.

Chall: Did they ever talk about women s suffrage voting?

Albrier: They never talked about voting because black women didn t vote
at that time in the South, but they were interested in the men
voting if they could pay the poll tax. They were interested in
getting rid of the poll tax so that they could vote. Women s
suffrage wasn t very popular at that time. I think they censured
any woman who got up and talked too much. They didn t know too
much about politics. They were too busy becoming organized in
their homes and women s groups, and in getting an education, and
in helping to support schools.

Additional Insights Into the Tuskegee Philosophy

Albrier: Everyone in the community believed in an education and a vocation.
The main thing was the vocation because they didn t have any kind
of vocation. They realized that too many Negroes only knew how to
pick cotton, and still lived on the plantation. They did not even
know how to launder a dress, or to cook a dinner, or to set a
table, or to clean a house. That s one reason they sent for
Dr. Washington. He had a school to teach the masses of black
youth only to work, and to be skilled in their work. There were
differences in the type of education. Dr. Washington thought
about the masses of black youth who needed to be trained in many
work skills, which would outnumber those who wanted to be
professionals .

Chall: Were you aware at that time, or later, of the difference in the
philosophies of Dr. Washington and Dr. DuBois?

Albrier: I wasn t aware at that time of the philosophy but I would see
how my grandmother cleaned the house and how hard she worked

Albrier: cleaning the house, and that she didn t know all the ways and

materials of keeping a house which I had learned in school. She
realized that herself. But later in school, we wondered why we
were behind or did not have some subjects which we needed for a
higher education.

When we asked Dr. Washington, he said that he was maintaining
a large night school in order to help the hundreds of students
who needed an education to learn a vocation or a trade. "You
will be able to have a vocation to go out and get a higher
education. That s what I m preparing you for." But these other
students will have a vocation so they will be prepared to earn a
living, through their trades or vocations that they have chosen to
learn. "You should be thankful and grateful that you re getting
what you are, and you can go on out and get a higher education,
with the help of a vocation or trade that you have learned here."

During his first lecture every year he said, "I m preparing
the groundwork to help you get that higher education because I m
not thinking of you students; I m thinking of the masses of black
people, the masses of young black people who need a type of
education so they can earn a decent wage and a living as dignified
citizens."

Chall: Do you think that was an incorrect approach to education of black
youth at that time? Would you agree with Dr. DuBois?

Albrier: No. No, I wouldn t change it one bit, if I had to move those

times back like they were. I saw students who were yearning to
get an education, who were yearning how to learn to read and
write their own name, who only had those ten dollars it took them
a whole year to save for their first year of school tuition.
Some had to walk, bum rides; some had to work very hard. Their
parents helped them to get an education with their meagre
earnings.

There 1^ was with my grandmother, and comparatively
comfortable. My grandmother talked to me and told me that I had
a blessing that they hadn t, and I had the responsibility to help
those students who wanted and needed an education. That was the
feeling: that we were responsible to help these students on the
farms who had only three months schooling during the year, because
they had to stop going to school to cultivate the cotton, and
later pick it.

I told my children and they couldn t believe it. They said
that they were glad that they didn t live in those times. My
great-aunt, my grandmother s sister, was a school teacher after

Albrier: she graduated. She taught five miles out from Tuskegee in a

country church. She went back and forth to school, in the morning
in her horse and buggy. Sometimes it would be so cold and I would
go with her. She placed hot bricks on the floor, wrapped in
paper, to keep our feet warm. I saw children when there was
frost on the ground, still picking cotton and they were not in
school. My aunt would say to me, "Do you see how God has blessed
you? Here you are, nice and warm in your buggy, going to school,
and those children are still out there picking cotton. Now they
won t be able to get into school until January."

Chall: Why was that?

Albrier: The children of families who lived on the farms or plantations in
the South would only have three, sometimes four, months to go to
school. Some started in December, January, February, and March to
attend school. In April it was time to cultivate the cotton.
They were out of schools, and the teachers had to work hard to
teach them as much as they could while they were in school, those
three or four months, because in April they were out again
chopping cotton. A great many students from Tuskegee would go
out to these schools and help the teachers teach these farmers
children, where the schools weren t adequate.

Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois :
Academic Education

Vocational versus

Chall: Was Booker T. Washington an exciting speaker? Did he have the
ability to make you feel that you wanted to do what he asked of
you?

Albrier: Yes, he was. He was so sincere; he touched and inspired. You

could feel what he was trying to do and what he was trying to say
for others. He brought out that sensitivity in people that they
would like to do their share in helping others. That was a gift
I think he had. That s how he was able to raise so much money
for the school, throughout the United States.

Chall: Was he preparing the way for other black leaders who came after
him like Martin Luther King and Dr. DuBois?

Albrier: Dr. DuBois believed that black students needed to learn

professions and advance. There were only a few doctors, lawyers,
teachers those who had skills. But Booker T. Washington was
seeing the thousands on the plantations who had not the least bit
of education. Booker T. Washington knew that they needed enough

Albrier: education to learn to work with their hands and become skilled
at whatever they chose to do.

I m sure Martin Luther King had the same characteristics
as Booker T. Washington. It took some time before DuBois started.
He was really from a different type of environment. But in the
later years he became very cognizant of the fact that he had to
give much more of himself, to the interest of the black masses,
and be more sincere to the downtrodden blacks, and be more
interested in them than he was in the class he was used to. As
he said, the race couldn t rise any higher than the lowest.

Chall: He modified his stand later, didn t he?

Albrier: Yes, he changed his viewpoint and became a different type of

person. That s one reason why he became interested in the people
of Africa.

Chall : Pan-Africanism?

Albrier: Yes. I ve always felt that Booker T. Washington was inspired by
Frederick Douglass.

Chall: What about the influence of Booker T. Washington in the white
community. He was criticized by Dr. DuBois and others for
accommodating too much. I was wondering whether actually he was
honored by the white community because he would seem to agree
with whites, about the place of Negroes, and because it appeared
he wouldn t rock the boat. How do you feel about such criticism
of Booker T. Washington?

Albrier: Neither one of those men, Booker T. Washington or Carver, believed
in keeping their people in their place. They could see in the
future that the timing was not right to have their people be
revolutionists; that they had so much to learn. They had to get
a good education and they had to get some kind of economic
stability. That s why they encouraged them to own their homes
and own their farms, and raise their food, and go into industry
and do their best; send their children to school and get an
education. I feel that they knew that the next step would
automatically come to the people then. They were not going to go
into any kind of revolutionary ideas with the masses of people
because that would affect the few, those who went to college and
the university. That would not affect the masses of people in
the South that they worked with.

"Earn Your Way"

Chall: Did Booker T. Washington consciously develop what would now be
considered a conservative point of view or was it just what was
already there in the community? Was he battling any militants
at that time, or was he just doing, as you say, what he felt was
necessary, knowing the community would follow?

Albrier: He was doing what he thought was necessary. He had in mind the
militancy among the masses. They could have started a
revolutionary idea in Tuskegee at that time among the students.

[end tape 2, side 1; begin tape 2, side 2]

They were concerned with masses of black youth and young
people and their needs. They knew that it wasn t the time for
them to go out and to start a revolution. Neither Dr. Washington
nor Dr. Carver were bitter. That s one of the secrets of the
black race that they have existed today. Had they become a race
that was bitter to the extent that they wanted to destroy
everybody and get even with everybody in a deluge of hatred and
bitterness, there wouldn t be any black people. So they were
not bitter. They knew that they had to earn and they imbued
that in the students : do your best to earn your way as men
and women through your example, through your education, through
your employment and through your community, with the help of God.

Vivid Memories of George Washington Carver

Chall: How was Dr. Carver as a teacher?
Albrier: I nicknamed Dr. Carver "Ichabod Crane."
Chall : Why?

Albrier: I had read the story about Ichabod Crane. Ichabod Crane had a

cutaway coat wrapped around himself. When I first saw Dr. Carver
coming on the grounds, I called him Ichabod Crane "There goes
Ichabod Crane." He always wore a cutaway coat and you would know
he was Dr. Carver even if you didn t know him.

Albrier: He taught botany classes at Tuskegee. One of the things I

remember that I often tell students about Dr. Carver is that he
had a soprano voice high toned, high pitched. He would ask you
a question and he would say, [pitches voice high] "Mary Frances,
tell me what class does this belong to ; what family does this
belong to?" He held up a bunch of grasses, weeds, and things
like that. I d say, "Dr. Carver, I think " [Pitches voice
high again.] "I think I think sit down, sit down. You don t
think; you know." We students caught on to Dr. Carver not to
say "I think" in his class, because he wouldn t listen. He
taught us that we shouldn t think; we should know. After that, I
would just say, "Dr. Carver, it belongs to the grass family."

Chall: [Laughs] If you were wrong, at least you didn t say you thought.

Albrier: That s right. Those teachers had a reason behind the way they
taught their students. We had to be very good. We had to know
more than a hundred percent to earn a hundred percent when we d
get out in the world, because prejudice, the times, were still
against us and we had to do more than our share. So they taught
us more than our share.*

Boys and Girls: In School and in the Community

Chall: What about these girls and boys? Were you expected, as a girl,
to go out and be as able and capable as any of these boys?
Could you have studied something that they taught the fellows?
If you would be interested in carpentry or something that would
generally be considered the vocation of a young man was that
acceptable, or were you expected to learn only what was set aside
for girls?

Albrier: No, that wasn t acceptable in those days. Women had their own
vocation and their own trade to learn their own employment to
learn. Women didn t think about being electricians or anything
like that. There was only- one trade that was taught both girls
and boys" and that was cooking and tailoring.

*Within the past twenty years Mrs. Albrier has been honored
on many occasions as one of Tuskegee s outstanding alumna by its
Alumni Association. She has also received an award for
exceptional service for perpetuating the Geroge Washington Carver
story. ed.

Chall: What about cooking?

Albrier: They had cooking classes, but they were not mixed. The boys were
in the bakery shop over in the dining room and the bakery
department. There weren t any girls over there. They were in
the domestic science department.

Chall: And that was a separate thing?

Albrier: Yes, that was a separate thing. In the school, the boys and

girls did not sit together. The boys would sit on one side and
the girls sit on the other side.

Chall: All the way?

Albrier: It was a very strict line. [Laughs]

Chall: [Laughs] From kindergarten on up?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What about your social life in the community or the school?
Was there any kind of social life that you had? Were there
dances and parties for young people?

Albrier: Yes, there were dances and clubs for young people. Of course,

at Tuskegee as in all other schools, there were the games. They
had games like football, basketball, and different games like
that, class parties, birthday parties, and other social
activities. There were lectures, the choirs, the choral groups.

Chall: In the schools?

Albrier: Yes. All of those activities were there in Tuskegee. We were

very fortunate. Dr. Washington was very fortunate. He traveled
throughout the United States and Europe and he was able to
persuade some of the finest teachers to come to Tuskegee. A
great many of those teachers came because they wanted to learn
themselves. They received so much from being there, helping to
alleviate pain and wrong that had been done to the black people
through prejudice.

Chall: Do you recall Mary McLeod Bethune ever coming to your school?

Albrier: No, I didn t meet Mary McLeod Bethune at Tuskegee. I don t
remember her coming there.

Chall: What about Mary Church Terrell? Did she ever come down?

Albrier: No, I don t remember her, either. I am sure both of them visited
Tuskegee, attending the many conferences held in the interest
of black students and the thousands seeking education.

Howard University:
of Education

A Different Community, a Different Philosophy

Chall: When you were going to Howard, was there a different philosophy
that permeated Howard from what you found in Tuskegee? If so,
how did you accommodate yourself to it?

Albrier: Howard was a school where many of the teachers and the students
were kind of aloof. There wasn t the atmosphere that Tuskegee
had or Fisk had. It was a kind of aloofness who you were and
who your parents were that type of society. I didn t quite
agree, because being under my grandmother s teachings so long
and her attitudes, I naturally would rebel. But anyway, I was
there to learn and to finish an education, so it didn t bother me
very much.

Chall: Did you make friends with any of the students?

Albrier: Yes, I made friends with many of the students and one of the

main teachers I liked reminded me so much of my grandmother and
Booker T. Washington Dean William Pickens.

Chall: Was there an educational philosophy that was different at

Howard more stress on the intellect, on liberal views regarding
the race, less on vocational training?

Albrier: Yes, there was. Stress was more on the education and professions
than vocation. If you were going into a vocation, like nursing
which took some nursing and social service some of those
vocations you had to know to assist you in the academic field.
Through your knowledge and skills of learning a vocation, that
helped you earn enough money to go to college to become a member
of a profession like a physician, professor of economics, history,
etcetera. Many black students were employed many years in the
vocations they learned as a gardener, plumber, carpenter, dress
maker, cook which helped them to earn certificates in the
universities, as only a few had parents who were financially
able to assist them.

Albrier: But at that time, everybody admired you as a great successful

person if you graduated from school, if you were going to school;
and the other people were just masses of uneducated people.
While in Tuskegee, we didn t look at them that way.

Chall: Was this an area of controversy or discussion among your friends
up there, who maybe came mostly from the North and might have had
different backgrounds? Were you able to convince them of anything
else, of another point of view?

Albrier: Yes, in the southern areas we were taught to be sympathetic with
the uneducated, to help them get an education and skills which
would help them become good responsible citizens and be proud of
their background and race. It was a great struggle and is still
a struggle to reach down and pull your brother and sister up to
the level of education because of the prejudice and hatred some
citizens have been taught against black citizens. Many of them
become so very bitter over conditions such as racism and bigotry.
Many set up a business, worked at their professions and trades,
or moved out of the South because they couldn t stand the
conditions, which was the case with a great many of them a great
many of the students parents, at that time. Those types of
students were very easy to associate with; to exchange views
and ideas.

Chall: Did you want to live in the North? Did you say something about
moving back to the South, or had you not thought about that?

Albrier: I wasn t there very long when my grandmother passed, and I knew
I d be coming West where my father was.

Chall: You finished your three years there?

Albrier: Yes. I came West to visit him and went back to school.

Chall: You knew where you were going to go?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What about the fact that at that time, as I understand it, the
president of Howard was white?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And was the faculty white as well?

Albrier: No, a few blacks, professors.

Chall: How did you feel about that? Did that cause you some discomfort
or did you accept it?

Albrier: No, it just seemed to be automatic, because we knew the school,
and the money was furnished by the whites, the government. We
knew that in those days, there was a caste that didn t think a
black person had the education or background enough to hold
such a position. But we knew the time was coming when they would.
We were all praying and striving to see that day come. We knew
we had to earn it we had to earn our way through the sweat of
our brows; we had to earn through many hours of study to get
those positions.

Chall: You accepted the fact that the faculty and administrative leader
ship was mostly white.

Albrier: Yes, and then too, some of the leadership of the whites would
have been better than the blacks because they had better back
grounds of study and travel. They would have new ideas and could
exchange them, and work with you, and inspire you.

Chall: Did you know Mordecai Johnson?

Albrier: Yes, I met him many times.

Chall: Did you have any class with him?

Albrier: No.

Chall: Was Kelly Miller on the faculty when you were a student? Did you
have classes with him?

Albrier: He was on the faculty, yes, I knew him; had classes in philosophy
with him.

Chall: What about Dean Charles Thompson?

Albrier: Yes, he reminded me so much of the viewpoints of Booker T. Wash
ington. Only he would say, now the time has come when black
students need higher education and to get into the other fields
of endeavor.

Chall: Was Alain Locke a faculty member you knew?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Were you stimulated by the Howard classes, and by the life in
Washington, D.C.?

Albrier: I didn t find it so stimulating. I was quite lonesome, and it
was a different type of people. There wasn t the warmth that
was in Tuskegee. Of course, I net any number of students who
were from Tennessee and the South, and they were quite friendly.

Chall: What was it like for a black student in Washington? Was the
prejudice any different from what you had experienced in the
South, in Tuskegee?

Albrier: Washington was not a good place to live, especially for the

blacks. There were slum areas there in Washington which were as
bad as in any southern city. It was like any southern city to
me because it had the same prejudices there. The students
couldn t go to a theatre unless they sat upstairs, and you
couldn t go into restaurants in certain places. There were
certain places you couldn t go because you were a Negro. The
same prejudice you faced in the southern states. It made you
wonder if you were a citizen and if you should have an
allegiance to this country.

Meeting the Foremost Negro Leaders

Chall: Did you ever hear Mary Church Terrell when you were at Howard?

Albrier: Oh, yes.

Chall: Was she inspiring?

Albrier: Yes. I met Mary Church Terrell in Negro club work. She, and

Mrs. Bethune, were members of the Association of Colored Women s
Clubs, Inc. That was organized to educate poor Negro girls and
women in the twenties and thirties. This organization still
exists.

Chall: Was she a kind of model for you during your life?

Albrier: Yes. She was the same type of person my grandmother was. What
they both said was, we d bide our time and we would work hard;
then the time would come when things would open up. "But you
must be ready. You must be ready for the same kind of job as a
white person if you prepare for it. The same with Abraham Lincoln.
He had to educate himself and he was ready when the time came.
So they told us, "You get all the education you can. When the
time comes for you to strike and get in position, you ll be
ready." That was their logic.

Her life had been much different from a great mass of people.
She had to try to put herself in the place of the other fellow.
She had had a good education and she was married to a prominent
lawyer and judge. She could travel and not face discrimination
as a Negro.

Chall: Did you ever see or meet Mrs. Bethune while you were at Howard?

Albrier: No. I saw Mary McLeod Bethune in Washington. I saw her once
when I was visiting in Virginia. She was busy in the South,
building Bethune Cookman College. I d only come in real close
contact with Mary McLeod Bethune earlier when I visited her
school, the Bethune Cookman College. That was before she started
the National Council of Negro Women. I d gone to her lectures
and heard her, and visited her college visited students in her
college. But I came to know her quite well when she came West.
I talked and visited with her a lot, and became very close to
her.

The first time she came out was before 1945. She began to
call all the black women who were heads of organizations and I
was then the president of the Auxiliary of Dining Car Employees.
She wanted all the heads of the organizations to get together so
they could number hundreds of thousands of black women, because
she wanted to make inroads in the political life of the nations
with representation. She came out again in 1945 in an advisory
capacity to the United Nations.

Chall: Did you meet Carter Woodson when you were at Howard?

Albrier: Yes, I met Carter Woodson when I was at Howard. I went to his
lecture and he was talking then about black history. He said
we should look into our backgrounds of the history that we are
losing and we should look into our backgrounds in slavery and in
Africa. He talked a great deal about roots, as Alex Haley does
today. He often said to me, "You should talk more to your
grandmother and get the history of where she came from, and he
talked to me about Africa. There were some African students in
Tuskegee. Two, three African students were my classmates. And in
my grandmother s church was Bishop Turner of Atlanta, Georgia,
Bishop of the African Methodist Zion Church, who believed that
the ties should not be broken with Africa by the American Negro
people. He said, when you get your education, go back to Africa
and teach the Africans.

Chall: He felt a strong link then with Africa?

Albrier: Yes. He would tell us about the homeland, Africa about the
Zulu tribes and other tribes that the American Negro people
belonged to. It was from these teachers and ministers like
Bishop Turner who talked so much about Africa, that I got an
idea to question my grandmother and question some of the older
people. I questioned quite a few of them and they gave me some
of their background as they remembered about Africa.

Chall: Did they know their background well?

Albrier: They knew it and we lost a lot of the history by not recording

it. If I had known what I know now, I d have gotten quite a bit
of history, because there were a lot of the old black ladies who
lived near us and who knew their histories and African background.

Chall: When you went back to talk to them, did you take notes?
Albrier: A few.

When I met Carter Woodson, it was at Howard. Carter Woodson
talked to students about black history and their ancestry.

My grandmother always said that she was Somebody and she
came from being Somebody. My grandmother knew more of her
history than she told us. I wasn t aware of the facts to question
her as I would today. She had a feeling of pride in her back
ground that gave her life meaning. Many people lost that pride
because they didn t know their history.

For instance the Africans, when they came over as slaves, were
from different tribes, from the different countries. I remember
reading in a medical journal where African slaves had slipped
an herb over with them that they planted in Georgia. If they
caught them cultivating this plant, they would be whipped
unmercifully. It was a plant that aided in abortions. That
was in a pharmaceutical journal.

Woodson has been a great service to the Negro people in his
outline of history and in building that organization that I m a
member of the Association for the Study of Negro Life and
History.

Chall: Did he inspire you at the time you knew him?

Albrier: Yes, but I wasn t inspired at that time. Those things just

went over my head. I didn t think much about it until the later
years.

Chall: You regret it?

Albrier: Yes, but it helped me to talk to the younger people and my

children and to give them the inspiration through their history.

Chall: Now, at Howard, when you were going into nursing and social
welfare, were some women thinking then of being doctors or
lawyers? Were women encouraged at Howard to go into those other
fields into the professions which were not then common to
women?

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Yes, they were beginning to encourage women to go into other
fields, in high fields of learning such as teachers, professors,
medicine, law, although there weren t many openings. There
weren t the openings when I went there even for women to be
professors in school. The woman had to do double what a man
had to do in her work and her curriculum.

She had to compete with whites, and also to surpass them?

Yes, she had to surpass them so far in order to get the

recognition she deserved. They discouraged a great many

women. They felt that they had this education that enabled them

to raise their families better; to raise their standing in

their communities, and to work better with Negro youth, inspiring

them.

World War I

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier;

Chall :

Albrier;

It s funny, though, that in preparing the conditions to bring
about some of these changes, every war that I ve witnessed has
opened doors, and those who were prepared, like my grandmother,
were able to accomplish something if they could be prepared and
just wait. That seems to be one of the ideas of the times.
God would bring about the changes.

What happened to blacks during World War I?
attitude toward the war?

What was their

They were moving just about all over the country. They didn t
see anything that was going to help advance the blacks by going
into the war, although they had to. They were encouraged to
go into the military and do their best, but they didn t go in
with the type of feeling and enthusiasm that you d think they
would.

I suppose they couldn t relate to the slogans about saving the
world for democracy.

It was kind of a sorrowful affair because the relatives who were
left were saddened. They didn t know if they would see their

Albrier: loved ones again. Tkey d say, "What are they going to fight

for anyway? We have nothing to fight for. When they come back,
they re going to have legs lost or have other problems." It
was that kind of an atmosphere.

Chall: Did you take any interest in Dr. DuBois Pan-Africa movement?

Albrier: I knew about it but I wasn t interested in it at that particular
time. I just felt that he knew what he was doing; he was laying
the groundwork for something.

Chall: What were the major black newspapers in the Washington area?
Did you read those papers?

Albrier: Yes, there was the Pittsburgh Courier. I didn t have very much
to do with that.

Chall: Did you keep in touch with what was going on in the black
community through the press?

Albrier: I found at times some articles that were inspiring and elevating.
I could learn about some of the everyday things that happened.

Chall: How much did you get to know about the black community in
Washington?

Albrier: I didn t have much experience when I was at Howard with the black
community. All black communities were engaged in surviving
discrimination, and with employment, as they are today.

There wasn t much of a black community out here, so I kind
of lost contact with the large black communities as I had been
used to in Tuskegee and in traveling around with my grandmother,
visiting churches in Alabama and Georgia.

Chall: Did you ever, at that time, feel concerned about school
segregation that it was wrong and should be abolished?

Albrier: No, I didn t give any thought to segregating the schools. It

just seemed automatically that that s what was to be and that s
what was. I went to black schools, and they didn t want black
and white schools, and we were all separated in our communities,
so I didn t give it any thought. When I did give thought to it,
was when I married. Then I began to realize that it wasn t
right to have segregated schools. They were not provided for.
They were not to the white schools, which were given the
largest amount of money and comfortable school buildings.

Chall: What about your social life at Howard? Did you go out on dates,
or did you stay in the company mainly of your girlfriends?

Albrier: I was happy-go-lucky [chuckles] and I didn t care much about the
boys. I liked to go out with the girls, or I liked to go with
a boy to a game. I mostly liked to read or go to theaters,
if I had the time, as I had small jobs at the school assigned to
me to help pay my expenses. I also liked to go horseback riding,
things like that. I was more out-door, coming from Tuskegee,
from the farm. I still don t like anything to fence me in.
[Laughter]

Grandfather *s Influence: An Ideal Man

Chall: You were reared by a strong woman in what would be considered a
female household: you, your grandmother, your sister. There
were, of course, all your grandmother s workers on the farm
the students who were, I suppose, mostly young men. Since
your father was away from you, who were the men who could be
what we today call male role models in your life?

Albrier: My grandfather was always a picture of the ideal man to me,
because he was a Blackfoot Indian.

Chall: How old were you when your grandfather died?
Albrier: I was about seven or eight years old when he died.
Chall: So you knew him for a time while you were growing up?

Albrier: He was most of my picture of being a man. My grandfather never
liked. . . He said a man wasn t a man if he hit a child or
woman. He looked down on that. If a man hit a child or a
woman around him, he would have to hit him. He would take him
on in a fight.

Chall: How did he discipline you girls?

Albrier: Oh, I was the pet. I never got disciplined by my grandfather
at all. [Laughter] My grandmother was the one who did the
disciplining. Whatever I did was right in his eyes.

He was a great horseman, and quite a farmer. He was quite
a friend of Dr. Carver. I remember he would ask Dr. Carver
what to plant on different tracts of land. One year Dr. Carver
told him to turn under that five acres of corn and not plant corn

Albrier: in that year. Well, my grandfather had been getting quite a
few bushels of corn out of that five acres. He said, "I ll
lose a lot of money. I ll lose my corn I get quite many
bushels of corn per acre."

Dr. Carver said, "Turn it under because you ve planted corn
enough now. We re going to plant something else. I have in
mind planting something else there." My grandfather never
argued because he said, "Those educated men, they know." My
grandfather ploughed all the corn under in the winter and let
it set. Dr. Carver came out there and he and my grandfather
sowed. My grandfather said there were a lot of weed seeds. He
didn t know what Dr. Carver was putting over on that five acres.
"That s a lot of weed seed they put out there." When it came
up, it was mint. And Dr. Carver told him, "You ll make more
money off this mint than you did off the corn because the soil
has given all of its nutriment to the corn. He told him, "When
this grows up and it s ready for baling, then we ll bale it and
I ll send it North. Then when they make peppermint oil and
medicines out of it, you ll be reimbursed more money than you got
for your corn." That s what happened!

Chall : Young as you were, you were old enough to understand what
was going on?

Albrier: Yes, I understood. There was quite a lot of talk in the house
hold. They wondered why Dr. Carver was going to tear up that
nice corn. It was nice corn, too long leaves. You d take the
fodder and tie them together. They called the leaves the
fodder. The horses would eat that. Long ears of corn, nice
corn. My grandfather made quite a bit of money off of his
corn. They ground some for corn meal. They had a corn meal
grist mill there. People would take their corn and grind their
own.

Anyway, my grandfather obeyed Dr. Carver. He said, "He s
an educated man of science, so I ll do what he says." I think
he felt that he d better see that he made his money back
[chuckles] And he did. Dr. Carver taught, not only my
grandfather a lesson, but he taught the other farmers in
Tuskegee and the South. He helped them to know there are
other crops that you can have for an income, that you did not
have to plant only corn or cotton. He taught them that you had
to replenish the nutriments and chemicals in the soil by
changing crops every few years.

But my grandfather was to me an ideal man. He was strong
and kind. He didn t like to see women and children mistreated.

Albrier: That was known throughout the neighborhood. If he heard of

a man beating his wife, he would have to beat him. My grand
father believed in the Great Spirits of the Indians, whereas
my grandmother was a strong Methodist. He was not as religious
as my grandmother and didn t go to church as often. They didn t
quarrel about it. He was a little more bitter than Grandmother
because he felt the whites had mistreated the Indians and taken
away their land. But he had traveled a lot and could see the
failures of the Indian, also.

[end tape 2, side 2]

III THE FIRST DECADES IN BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA, 1920-1940

[Interview 3: December 7, 1977]
[begin tape 3, side 1]

Albrier: That was Mr. Campbell, who brought me home in the car. He s the
chairman of the Berkeley Committee on Aging. We came home around
Ellis and Ashby and saw them digging up the ground for the new
South Berkeley Center that they re going to dedicate.

Chall: So, it s really only a ground breaking, isn t it?
Albrier: Yes, a ground breaking. There ll be three in one day.
Chall: How long do you think it will take to finish them?

Albrier: It will take a year or more. They won t be finished until
December or next January.

Chall: Then there ll be other places for seniors to go besides where
they re going now?

Albrier: South Berkeley uses McGee Avenue Baptist Church Educational Hall
for their center. We are still using the Lutheran church school
on University Avenue. West Berkeley Center is in one of the
housing projects I think it was one of the old buildings. They
remodeled it for a temporary center. They will be located at
Sixth and Hearst for the new West Berkeley Center.

Chall: So you ll all be moving out of the churches then.
Albrier: Yes. [Laughter]

Chall: They ll fill up those buildings again with some good social
programs. They re good buildings.

Moving to Berkeley, 1920

Chall: I wanted to find out today about the first decade or so that you
had in the Bay Area because your scrapbook basically starts
with about the mid- thirties. So, there s a whole decade that s
kind of missing in your life.

You had made several trips West to see your father from
time to time, hadn t you?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: So you knew what this community was like.

Albrier: Yes. Only I didn t come to Berkeley some of the trips. It

wasn t until 1910 that I came to Berkeley because when my father
first left the South, he came to Pasadena with a bunch of his
friends, and I visited him in Pasadena. Then he left Pasadena
and came up north looking for a job. In 1915 I came West when
he and my stepmother were established here in Berkeley.

Chall: He was a chef, then, for a fraternity?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: He wasn t living in the fraternity house, though, was he?

Albrier: No. He had charge of a fraternity house, and I don t remember
the name of it.

Chall: Was your stepmother working out of the home at all?

Albrier: No, she didn t work out of the home. She was a very fine dress
maker and ladies tailor. She worked at home, taking in sewing
and dressmaking.

Chall: They didn t have any children?
Albrier: No.

Chall: Were you aware how segregated a community Berkeley was; did it
seem any different to you from the South?

Albrier: I wasn t aware when I first came to Berkeley there were not many
Negro people out here and in the West. You only saw them if you
went to church. I could walk all over Berkeley all day and see

Albrier: just about two Negro people. I was quite lonesome and it kind of
set me back. I was just quite lonesome from coming out of school
where there were all Negro people. In the South, there were
hundreds of Negro people, and when I came out here, there were
just a few families.

Chall: When you moved out here permanently was it 1920 were there
more as a result of the war?

Albrier: No, there wasn t.

Chall: Children or

Albrier: No, there weren t very many.

Chall: What did you do was it in 1920 when you came out, finally?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did you move in with your father into their home?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was your sister with them, too, at that time?

Albrier: Yes. My grandmother had passed then. My father brought my
sister and me to Berkeley.

Chall: Where was their home?

Albrier: They lived on Grove Street. The house is still there on Grove
Street and I ll have to remember it later.

Chall: Did you have white neighbors?

Albrier: Yes, white neighbors, and my sister attended school there were
just about three or four blacks in the school and in her class.
My father belonged to a white church, to the Nazarenes. That
was all white. There were just two families two black families
in that church.

Chall: That s unusual that he had nothing to do with his former
Methodist church.

Albrier: My father had gotten accustomed to that. He was quite a niixer
and had a great many white friends. They never looked at each
other or their color or their race.

Chall: How did that seem to you? Did you go to church with them from
time to time?

Albrier: Yes, I went to church. By my father s attitude, by my step
mother s attitude why it didn t make any difference to me. I
just saw people as people.

Chall: So they welcomed you

Albrier: In Tuskegee, my grandmother had a great many white friends.

There were a great many people whom she had reared as children,
or helped their families, in her lifetime. They were in and
out of her house just as if they were her own.

Chall: Even though you lived in a segregated neighborhood.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was your father as light-skinned as your grandmother? Could he
pass as a white man?

Albrier: No. He had a light brown complexion.

Chall: Were you trying to find work soon after you arrived here? Did
you think about working as a nurse or a social worker?

Albrier: No. For a while, I didn t. I stayed and helped my stepmother
with her sewing. Then later, I married.

Chall: How much later?

Albrier: Oh, it must have been about two years later.

Chall: Married in 1922, then?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Mr. Jackson was a Negro.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How did you happen to meet him?

Albrier: He was attending the University of California. He had attended
the University of Arizona and he was studying to be an engineer.
He was taking up engineering at the time, in order to complete
this course.

Chall: You had happened to meet him at

Albrier: He had retired from the army. He went into the army when he was
quite young. In fact, the army trained him and looked forward
to training him as a doctor, but he decided he didn t want to be
a doctor. When he went into the army, there were very few
educated blacks. Most of them were illiterate. The young men
who came in, they had the job of teaching the older uneducated
men. He decided when they moved to Fort Huachaca in Arizona
that he would retire from the army and not serve another term.
He would go to the University of Arizona, which he did. Then
he came to Berkeley.

Chall: When you met him, he was still in school?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was he much older than you or about the same age?

Albrier: He was about fifteen years older than I.

Chall: Did you meet him at some social organization for black people
that was in the area? How did you happen to meet him?

Albrier: He came to my father s house to see some other students who
lived in my father s apartments my father had roomers. My
stepmother met him first and then later I met him.

Chall: He hadn t been married before?
Albrier: No.

Chall: After you were married in 1922, did he continue at the university
until he had some degree?

Albrier: He only continued about six months; then he got a job with an
engineering firm. He became very bitter on that job. At that
time, there was unrest among students beginning to be an unrest.
There was a radical bunch, I think. They called them Bolsheviks
at that time. He met a great many of that radical bunch in
San Francisco. He became very bitter because certain positions
and jobs that he applied for, he could have had, but he was
denied just because he was a Negro.

Chall: Did you say that you were separated?

Albrier: He went East and he came back. He got a job in the East and came
back a couple of years. Then we separated.

Joining the Marcus Garvey Organization

Chall: During that time as I understand it from the article on

Marcus Garvey about 1921, you had joined the Garvey organi
zation.* That might be wrong, but let s see so you might have
already been a member of the Garvey group before you were
married. [The Universal Negro Improvement Association]

Albrier: What dates are the Garvey groups?

Chall: This article says that [reading from article] "Marcus Garvey
went to Oakland, California to speak to the black masses in
the Oakland Auditorium in 1921. Mrs. Albrier was there.
Mrs. Albrier was one of the huge black throng who clapped and
cheered enthusiastically at Marcus Garvey s words." In 1921.

You started with the Garvey movement, at least appreciating
him, in 1921, when you first heard him.

Albrier: Yes. That was when he was building his organization. He was
lecturing. He would lecture in churches and the ministers
would encourage their audiences to hear him.

Chall: When he spoke at the Oakland Auditorium, that was a large
meeting.

Albrier: Affair. Yes.

Chall: How did Mr. Jackson view the Garvey movement? You apparently

got into it and thought it was good. How did he view it? If he
was by that time, or shortly thereafter, interested in the
Communist movement did he appreciate Garvey at all?

Albrier: Mr. Jackson felt that Mr. Garvey was too much influenced by the
English. You see, he was from Jamaica and was influenced by
the English regime and English ways of doing things, and English
organization. But he didn t understand why Mr. Garvey was doing
those things.

*Raoul C. Peterson, "Garveyism in California:
Core, Fall/Winter, 1973, pp. 20-22.

A Lady Remembers."

GARVEYISM

3M j&a " */ x /V/^ "^^^

IN CALIFORNIA:
A LADY REMEMBER:

night is to day, woman is to man." Garvey. Women like Mrs. Albner added strength
to Garvey s movement. Van Dor Zee Institute

by Raoul C. Peterson

An exclusive interview with Mrs.
Frances Albrier, who was Vice-
President of The Women s Auxiliary
of The Universal Negro Improvement
Association in Oakland, California
in 1923.

In reviewing the Black Nationalist or
Pan-African implications of Marcus
Garvey s UNIA Movement of the
early 1 900s, it is most important to get
the ideas, opinions, feelings and atti
tudes of the people who were actively
involved in the movement. Mrs. Frances
Albrier of Berkeley, California, is one
of these people.

Mrs. Albrier, 74, was born in Mt.
Vernon, New York in Sept. of 1898.
Her mother died when she was three
years old, so she was sent South to
Tuskeegee, Alabama to be raised by her
grandmother. She has a vivid and ac
curate memory of lynchings which
occurred in the South, particularly in
Savannah, Ga. "1 can t stand to see a
black satin shirt to this day," she said,
remembering seeing her first. A Black
man hung near a tree near a bibie meet
ing wearing such a shirt. She was only
ten years old then. Later, she married,
came to Berkeley, California and had
three children. Her husband worked on
the railroad in California in the early
1900s.

65b

- .. : -^8* l f^

The Black Cross Nurses, part of the women s auxiliary of Garvey s movement of which Mrs. Albrier was a member.
Van Der Zee Institute.

Marcus Garvey went to Oakland,
California to speak to the Black masses
in the Oakland Auditorium in 1921.
Mrs. Albrier was there, recalling that the
Chief of Police did not want him to
speak because he was a "radical" and
"un-American." but finally relented;
and he. of course, was to attend this
event. Marcus Garvey was forewarned
not to say anything "offensive." On this
day, Marcus Garvey spoke most elo
quently in his Jamaican accent about
self-esteem, and pride in color and
features.

"Look at me, I m a handsome Black
man with African features." He agreed
with the Klu Klux Klan: "Keep the
races separate and pure. We want our
race pure we would have been if
whates hadn t tampered with us. Throw
away your children s white dolls and
give them Black dolls, so they get the
beauty of the Black Image. You help
psychologize your children by giving
them white doils. The chains of slavery
have been broken but Blacks are still
slav-es psychologically." He called for

trade with the West Indies and Africa,
so that Blacks could build up businesses
and raise their standard of living. He
didn t tell all Blacks to go to Africa but
he did try to recruit scientists, engi
neers, technicians and professional
Black people to go to Africa to strength
en it and build it up, so that all Blacks
could proudly look to Africa as their
"Mother Country."

Mrs. Albrier was one of the huge
Black throng who clapped and cheered
enthusiastically at Marcus Garvey s
words.

"He had a way of appealing to all
classes both educated and uneducated,"
she said, "And I decided then and there
to join his movement because I wanted
to put my foot on African soil before I
died."

So, she became actively involved in
the Women s Auxiliary of the UNIA
which had a component called the
Black Cross Nurses. These women
secured financial aid, taught the un
educated, and circulated among the
community to bolster moral support in

the movement. She remembers quite
vividly the resplendent parades, the
smart, colorful uniforms, and elegant
plumed hats and bands designed to give
Black people a sense of dignity and
racial pride. These women also put on
plays, skits and programs for Black
folks illustrating many of Marcus Gar
vey s ideas-one example, being the
Black Star Line, a Black steamship com
pany to be owned and operated by
Black people. She expressed her excite
ment and pride in seeing this dream
become a reality in witnessing the start
of the maiden voyage of the first of two
ships purchased by the UNIA with a
Black captain and crew. Mrs. Albrier
served the cause faithfully and was
elected Vice-President of the Women s
Auxiliary in Oakland, giving what time
she could while raising her three chil
dren.

As we know from history, financial
disaster followed and Marcus Garvey
was imprisoned for fraudulent use of
the mails. Mrs. Albrier stated that she
believed that this was the downfall of

65c

the organization, which totally col
lapsed about two years afterward with
out his forceful leadership.

"Marcus Garvey completely trusted
those around him and some unscrupu
lous men in high positions in the
UNIA ripped him off," she said
sadly. Although the followers in the
movement tried vainly to raise funds to
free him and wrote letters of support to
him in prison, he now was verbally
crucified as a charlatan. Then fear set in
to the members and followers of the
UNIA as they heard the insults and
allegations hurled at Marcus Garvey.

"Marcus Garvey wants to send every
body back to Africa- 1 haven t lost any
thing in Africa," became the popular
catch-all phrase among the non-
believers.

Mrs. Albrier joined many other
Black organizations and continued

raising her children, but her sympathy
and support was still with Marcus
Garvey. She has in her possession,
among her mementos, a typewritten,
signed letter from Marcus Garvey, writ
ten in London, England, to Mr. W.A.
Deans of Oakland dated 1937, in which
he was still trying to enlist support and
funds to reform his movement. This
letter is cherished by her.

In 1958 another dream became a
reality for Mrs. Albrier. She set foot on
African soil for the first time. The
occasion: Nigerian Independence.
While there with a press entourage from
California, she also visited Liberia,
Senegal, Guinea, and Ghana. While in
Ghana, she was surprised and elated to
see a ship, The Black Star, named in
honor of Marcus Garvey s movement
She felt proud to have been a part of his
movement.

Mrs. Albrier is still very much an
active person in "what s happening
now" to our people. Among the groups
she participates in are: Senior Citizers
of Berkeley, Senior Center Assistant,
Model Cities of Berkeley. She is also a
member of the Board of Directors and a
life member of the National Council of
Negro Women; a life member of CORE
and of the NAACP; and is involved in
various church activities.

As the writer of this article, I can t
resist saying that it was a fantastic
experience to meet a woman like Mrs.
Albrier who has given and sacrificed so
much of herself for our "struggle,"
while always keeping a never-wavering
faith that things will get better tor us. 1
guess that s what it is all about.

Albrier: Mr. Garvey wore the uniforms the English uniforms and all of
that was familiar to him. But he was appealing to the black
people. He was instilling in them pride in themselves, the same
as Martin Luther King started out doing.

Chall: I see. And he was also appealing to black unity, black business,
and I would think this might have appealed to Mr. Jackson, since
the white businessmen were not allowing him to work. But it
didn t appeal to him at all, that movement.

Albrier: Not very much. He couldn t see how Mr. Garvey was going to

organize the whole world, take people back to Africa, and build
a country for the blacks in Africa.

Chall: That was a rather ambitious objective.

Albrier: He just didn t see through that program of doing all those things
just then. In fact, his friends associated with a crowd of
students, university students, that only saw revolution. They
had to revolutionize the whole world which was their own
thinking .

Chall: Were these black and white students?
Albrier: Black and white students, yes.

Chall: There was, at one time and I m unclear about the dates but

there was at one time, an attempt on the part of the Communist
party in the United States to organize blacks. They never really
made up their minds what they wanted. A sort of segregated
group of states of their own, which would be considered their
own country in the United States, in the South, or some other
arrangement but they were trying to get them into the party
and influence them.

Albrier: Yes, they were organizing the students and citizens like

Mr. Jackson and university black students. They were together
with the whites. Then they had another group of the working
citizens. They were in another group and they never saw each
other. Groups like Mr. Jackson s and then the students would
lay plans for this revolution how they were going to do it, and
how they were going to work it, and the difference in the
countries.

Chall: Do you think he was actually

Albrier: I don t know too much about it. I remember the government
didn t like what they were doing and took some papers from
Mr. Jackson one time. They came and searched his room.

Chall: Was this after you were married or before?
Albrier: After.

Chall: At that time, you were working as a Black Cross nurse in the
movement, the Garvey movement?

Albrier: Yes. That was an organization in the Garvey movement where the
black nurses were organized together to get them to have more
affiliation with each other and to help each other. I don t know
whether he thought there was going to be another war, but I
think he did. They would be prepared to take care of their
communities, if there was a catastrophe another war. They
could serve in the war. A great many of those women, at that
time, remembered their parents who served in the Spanish-American
War. We had quite a few of them and they were black nurses
and helpers.

Chall: I understand that in World War I, black women weren t allowed to
be part of the Red Cross.

Albrier: No, no.

Chall: So this was an opportunity for them to become a part of the
nursing corps in a disaster?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Since there wasn t a disaster, what did the nurses do? Were
they working in the community?

Albrier: They worked in the community service.

Chall: As nurses?

Albrier: Yes. That was part of their job.

Chall: What did you do as a Black Cross nurse?

Albrier: I instructed a lot. I instructed the Black Cross and organized
them.

Chall: In Oakland and Berkeley?

Albrier: Yes. And lectured to them to give them an incentive to join.

We were able to get a great many of them so enthused, interested,
that they went to school. Some became practical nurses and
some of the younger girls in the group went into training.

Chall: Where could they get nurses training?

Albrier: They went back to Tuskegee and to other schools, a few in the
public schools that qualified.

Chall: Because there was no training for them here?

Albrier: No. Except those who went to the university. About four or
five went to the university, into training. Two went to the
university in San Francisco; two went into training in
Los Angeles.

Chall: As a result of working in this group, did you then begin to meet
other black people whom you hadn t met before in the Eay Area
community?

Albrier: Yes. Before then, I began to meet a great many black people,
large groups of black people whom I didn t know lived in
California. I only met those who went to my father s church
and those who went to the Methodist church groups. Those
other groups I hadn t met. I hadn t met the larger groups.
That work helped me to meet the women s groups, large groups,
church groups both Baptist and Methodist, and club groups. I
began to meet more people.

Chall: You realized there was a rather large Negro community here that
you hadn t known about.

Albrier: Yes, but they were scattered all around in different places.

Chall: There must have been a black neighborhood, or was there? Or
were there many black neighborhoods?

Albrier: There wasn t. At that time, there wasn t as much discrimination
as came later. You could live anywhere if you could afford to
pay the rent.

Chall: I see. Anywhere.
Albrier: Yes.

Some of the old families, we didn t know they didn t own their
homes until the last war. People began to come in and buy houses
and their houses were sold. The family had lived there for
years, and even the great grandchildren didn t own their homes.

Chall :

Was there a reason why they didn t?

Albrier: No, they just didn t have the incentive to buy, I guess.
Chall: Nothing would have prevented them from owning the house?

Albrier: No. They didn t buy; they just continued to pay rent. Leaders
like Marcus Garvey, those were the things they began to inspire
in the black people to tell them they had to be an economical
asset for themselves. They had to own property, and they should
own their homes. They should begin to have a part in the
economic growth of a city in the country that they lived.

The Philosophy and Dream of Marcus Garvey

Chall: As I read this issue of the magazine and some other material

on the Garvey movement, I got the feeling that not only did he
instill pride in blackness which is certainly something we
didn t hear about again for quite some time but that he had a
strong feeling for really being separated as races. He was
opposed to the philosophy of the NAACP and W.E.B. DuBois, who
were interested in integration. He took a strong exception to
that. Now, did this create any conflict within you? Coming
from your own background. You were not anti-white, you joined
your father s church here, and you were comfortably integrated
as much as you could be. This seemed like a separatist movement.
Did that bother you any?

Albrier: In a way, it did. I had a long talk with Mr. Garvey when he

came out here with some of his people from his office in
New York, about the movement and why he was proposing separate
races. Mr. Garvey was an internationalist; he was from Jamaica.
He was comparing the Negro people in the United States, and the
Negro people in the West Indian Islands, and the Negro people in
black Africa. He saw how they were all exploited. He said that
the reason they were not elevated and were not able to get up and
be somebody in the world as a race, was because they were all
so separated. They all saw through the eyes of different nations
and different nationalities. The only continent they knew was
their continent, where their roots were, was Africa.

He said that they [whites] didn t like the Japanese any
more than they liked the Negro; they didn t like the Chinese any
more than they liked the Negro; and they didn t like the Jewish
people any more than they liked the Negro but these minorities
had a home base. They had a country. The American Negro over
here didn t have any country. Neither did the British Negro.

Albrier: So their own home country was Africa. It was there that they
should establish a country all their own, and that s what he
wanted to do.

When he gave out the call that blacks should go to Africa,
many of the black people in this country didn t want to go to
Africa. "Why did he want to uproot them?" He told him that
he didn t want all of them in Africa. He only wanted the engin
eers and the scientists to come to this plot that he had picked
out, and to build it into a country or a home base, where you
could go if you wanted to leave the United States, and that you
could call your own country.

Chall: You d have sort of a united power base.

Albrier: The black people got it all mixed up and said that Marcus Garvey
wanted all of the black people to leave and go to Africa. He
told them he didn t because there weren t enough jails over
there to hold them. The ones he wanted to come were the
scientists and the teachers, and those who would build up a
country, so they could look forward and say that, "that s our
country." All over the world, no matter where they were, their
country was this portion of Africa that he had chosen. That
way, he could give pride.

He wanted to organize them together economically. For
instance, in Jamaica and the West Indian Islands were certain
crops of food that the people couldn t buy and they couldn t
raise, because the English said, "We re not going to have a corn
crop. We re going to raise something else. England needs a
different type of food." But if he had them organized in the
United States and they had their own ship which he proposed
and bought a White Star line ship then if they decided that
they needed to raise some more corn, they could raise the corn
by the ton in the West Indies Islands, bring it on their ship
to the United States, and market it among Negroes in the
United States. Or they could produce and sell from the
United States to Jamaica, or anywhere else.

They could start commerce among black people, among the
black nations where the black people were. Then they would begin
to propagate employment. They would get more economical assets
and be, as a whole, a group of people that was respected. He
said, "All Jews don t live in Jerusalem, and all Chinese don t
live in China; all Italians don t live in Italy, but they all
look back at thair own country." That way, he felt that the
black people in America they d been so torn apart by slavery

Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall :

and dehumanized from slavery they could get together and bring
about a kind of pride in their race and in themselves. That was
his dream.

When 3J-OU got the whole picture, then, it didn t bother you any?

No. I agreed with him. If that could be done, it would be a
great thing to do. You see, before then, the Negro people in the
United States were ashamed of Africa. They were ashamed of their
skins being black. They didn t want any part of being affiliated
with Africa and those other countries. Those who lived in other
countries, the West Indian people, thought that they were better
than the Negro people in the United States, "Because we don t
have as much discrimination as you do over there. We don t have
to contend with such things as that." It was a division that he
was trying to bring together and that s what I saw. That s why
I was part of his movement. Black people throughout the world
were discriminated, exploited, and dehumanized against themselves
even tribes in Africa against other tribes.

What about the attitudes of other black people whom you would
gradually meet? If you were speaking before clubs, women s
clubs of the churches, there I suppose you would see a difference
of opinion. What kinds of people opposed the Garvey movement as
you met them?

The only thing that most black people opposed in the Garvey
movement was his saying they should go back to Africa that they
should have an African country. And that many Negroes should
aspire and build up Africa.

The other parts of his philosophy of being proud of being black,

educated and enterprising, that didn t bother them any?
accepted that?

They

They accepted that, yes. He instilled that in them and they
began to think about it that they were somebody. He laid the
groundwork for the thirties, the forties, the sixties. He laid
that groundwork for the sixties that they had that wave of civil
rights pride in yourself, black is beautiful, your hair is
beautiful, you re a beautiful person, you see. He was just a
forerunner of those things.

There s certainly a thread of his economic determinism in the
Black Muslim movement, isn t there? Owning their own bakeries,
businesses, and schools. There s a strong black identification
in so many ways, in that movement.

Albrier: Yes, that was the same type of movement that Marcus Garvey could
see. He didn t believe in dividing the religious. He didn t go
into that. Religion takes care of itself, but the people as a
whole. The way he saw it was that that would stop them from being
exploited not only in America, but all over the world. He
looked at the predicament and condition of black people all over
the world.

Chall: He seemed to have a very broad understanding of what was happen
ing all over the world among blacks.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: You then stayed with the movement until it sort of died out in
the late twenties and thirties?

Albrier: I stayed in the movement, I think about seven years, until it
died until they arrested Marcus Garvey; finally sent him back
to Jamaica. Then the movement still survived in a small way
in Jamaica and England.

Chall: Did that leave a vacuum in some of your activities? Did you then
not know just exactly what to do with some of the ideas that you
had?

Albrier: No, we still had NAACP and educational women s groups, and
organizations that we were still working with to build up
citizens. But the seeds that Garvey planted were not dead.
There were still hundreds of black youth that needed schools
and needed to go to schools. We had schools coming up that
needed help like the Bethune Cookman College. Tuskegee still
needed help; Howard University still needed help; Fisk University,
and other small schools in the rural districts of the South
and in the South.

Chall: You just moved wherever the need was?

Albrier: Yes, I worked in organizations that contributed to these differ
ent schools.

Chall: You said that sometime in the mid- twenties I m not sure what
the date was that Mr. Jackson went East and found a job.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How far east was East?

Albrier: He went to New York.

Chall: All the way.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What dd he do there?

Albrier: For a while, he worked in a book shop; he managed a book shop
for a firm. I don t remember the firm s name. He contracted
pneumonia, and died in 1930.

Chall: Had you planned that you would ever be living together again?

Albrier: No.

Chall: Did he contribute to the support of your family?

Albrier: Just a small amount because he said he couldn t get the jobs.
He wasn t hired for the jobs he applied for they didn t hire
Negroes, which made him very bitter at the government. He lost
faith in our constitution so far as the black man was concerned.
He felt there was more hope in the communist philosophy regarding
the workers of a country. The majority of Negroes in the
United States were working citizens; through their work
one hundred years of slavery with their strength and hands,
they built America. (United States) That s what made him very
bitter.

Goingto Work: A Variety of Jobs

Chall: What did you do, then, to help support your family? You were

practically the sole support for the children. Did you have to
go out and work?

Albrier: For many positions, jobs, I was told, "I am sorry, but we do not
hire Negroes." For instance, a clerk in stores; a receptionist.
I got a lot of help from my father. Then I worked in different
fields. When WPA came on, it opened up a lot of employment for
working mothers at that time. I worked in the hospitals.

Chall: On a WPA project?

Albrier: Yes. I worked in Highland Hospital.

Chall: That s a public hospital. It had to take a black girl in?

Albrier: Yes, that was WPA. A great many of the private hospitals didn t
hire blacks. The WPA came and counted us through political
activities. They could not exclude black practical nurses.
Before then, I worked in a book bindery shop.

Chall: WPA, too?

Albrier: No.

Chall: It wasn t WPA?

Albrier: No.

Chall: What kind of shop?

Albrier: I did it on WPA, because they set up a book bindery.

Chall: Now, the book bindery that you worked in prior to WPA, was that
a black organization?

Albrier: No, it was white. It was just a small book firm that put the

backs on books . But WPA was more extensive because they taught
you how to take a book that was falling all apart and put it
together; then put a new binding on it and put it back in
circulation. We did a great many books for schools.

Chall: That was a good public service.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: In this area, were the blacks separated out in the WPA project?

Albrier: No. Everybody worked together because that was federal govern
ment. There was no separation there.

Chall: I understand that in other parts of the country, they did
separate the races.

Albrier: We heard that in other parts of the country; but not in
California.

Chall: I see. Kept them together.

Albrier: I don t know about Los Angeles, but I know up here, in the
northern part of the state.

Chall: How long was your father living in this area in the Berkeley
area? Was he alive here for a long time?

Chall:
Albrier:

Albrier: He lived in this area for a good while. No, I don t remember.
But then he went back to Pasadena. My stepmother had cancer
and she went back to Pasadena to be near a physician she thought
helped her at that time. She passed; then later my father went
back to Pasadena to live. He said it was warmer there. This
damp weather was detrimental to his health. He had a home in
Pasadena.

Did you decide to stay here in Berkeley?

My sister went back to Pasadena and married in southern
California and went to Riverside. I stayed here.

Why did you stay here? Any special reason?

I was more accustomed to northern California; had friends here,
and I liked northern California better than I did southern
California. When I visited southern California, I found a
little more prejudice there than here in northern California.

In northern California I did all kinds of jobs, even
housework. I met some very wealthy women. I met one lady
one day and she said she needed a person who knew how to serve
a table because her housemaid had left, and she always had a
lot of guests. She asked me if I knew anyone because she
wanted perfect table service. I told her I had learned that in
Tuskegee. She knew about Tuskegee; so I got the job in her
home. I was the second maid. All I did was to answer the
doorbell and telephones, and to serve the table the meals.
She had four boys and two girls. It was a large family. She
said, "That s a lot of walking. There s a let of things you
have to do." That was one of the nicest jobs.

Chall: Was that in Berkeley?

Albrier: No, that was in San Francisco.

Chall: Did you have to travel across on the ferry every day?

Albrier: No, not every day, only when I wished to see the children.

Chall: Did you have a place to leave your children when they were
young?

Albrier: Yes. I boarded the children with a friend of mine who took
care of children.

Chall: When you had the job in San Francisco, you lived in with that
family?

Albrier: I lived in. I came home only on weekends.
Chall: I see. So you really had to board the children.

Albrier: Yes. Then later, I started as a nurse, working with a doctor, Dr.
the other day, I wrote that doctors s name down, too 0. Roy Busch.

Chall: He was a white doctor?

Albrier: No. He was a black doctor. There were only two black doctors here
at that time in Berkeley and Oakland. Dr. 0. Roy Busch did all the
maternity work for the black women. Those who didn t go to
hospitals called for Dr. Busch. So he asked me to work with him
and I did for a long time.

One of his cases was in a large home, and an apartment in the
home was rented out to a young couple. They had a baby. Dr. Busch
was the doctor and he always brought me in to help him with his
babies. I told the young woman that I was getting tired of that
work and I wanted to stop. I was getting tired, and not getting
enough sleep, and I just felt worn and tired. I d like to change.
She said, "Why don t you go into Pullman service? They want someone
who knows nursing, who knows how to take care of the sick. They re
asking for somebody like that. I think you would like that. I m
going to tell Mr. Templeton about you and have him write you."

I said all right and didn t think much about it. But she did
tell him and he sent for me for an interview. He said, "We think
you would make a very valuable employee because there are a great
many people who are sick and become ill on the trains. We would
like you to think about coming into the Pullman service as a maid."
I said all right and so I did.

A Maid with the Pullman Company, 1926-1931

Albrier: I went into the Pullman service. The only thing I had to learn was
manicuring. One of the other maids got a beauty operator to teach
me manicuring. That s what the maids did. They took care of the
showers for the women who wanted showers and did the manicuring for
both men and women. That s as far as they went in beauty work.

All of the train then was nothing but Pullman cars the
first class trains. In the women s restroom, no man was allowed
in there. When the conductors came through, you had to walk
through with the conductor so you could take the tickets from
the women who were in the restrooms. That was part of your job.
That was a very nice position. I call it position because I

Albrier: met so many fine people. During that time they call it "running
wild" that first year I was in Chicago and a call came from
Chicago that the maid was sick on the Twentieth Century and
that I should take the Twentieth Century to New York. That s
where "L met Governor and Mrs. Franklin Roosevelt.

Chall : You mean you met them on the train?

Albrier: Yes, I met them on the train. They had a drawing room. That s
why I say it was a position of wide experience because I met
so many of these very fine people in the Pullman service.

Chall: This comes to me as a total surprise. [Chuckles] I haven t

seen this in any of your material. You traveled from Oakland to
wherever what was your main route?

Albrier: The first year that I went into the Pullman service, you called
it "running wild." That is, wherever there is a need for a
maid, you were to go. On the Overland, It may have been the
maid was sick and I would have to take her place. If I got into
Chicago and there was an emergency for a maid on the Twentieth
Century, I would have to go. In New York, when I got there,
they needed the service of a maid who was off, or something
happened going somewhere else I was to go. They called that
"running wild." For a year; then afterwards, you bid in on a
regular route if there s a vacancy. Then there became a vacancy
on the Sunset Limited.

Chall: Where was that running?

Albrier: That was running from San Francisco to New Orleans. It was
while I was on that run that I met Mr. Albrier.

Chall: That makes sense now, I see.

Albrier: That s how I got involved in railroading and the unions in
railroading, organizing the maids and Pullman porters into
unions .

[end tape 3, side 1; begin tape 3, side 2]

Chall: You said you went into Pullman service in 1926.

Albrier: 1926, yes.

Chall: And stayed until 1931.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was there just one maid to a train?

Albrier: One maid to each train.

Chall: To each train. There were quite a few trains.

Albrier: Yes, seven trains a week. One a day, those top trains ran. To
New Orleans, the personnel from the maid and the dining
car ran through from San Francisco to New Orleans. The Pullman
porters ran from San Francisco to Los Angeles; got off. Then in
Los Angeles, they picked up the Pullman porters from New Orleans.
The train did.

There were three trains out of here that carried the maid
service, that was the Sunset Limited to New Orleans, and the
Overland Limited to Chicago, and the Cascade Limited from
San Francisco to Portland, Oregon.

Chall: And there was just one maid at a time?

Albrier: That s right. On each train, daily train.

Chall: So there were many porters

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And many waiters and cooks, and the one woman.

Albrier: One woman, yes.

Organizing the Pullman Car Porters and Maids

Chall: Did you get a feeling for how the porters felt about their

employment conditions and their need to unionize? Did you back
them?

Albrier: Yes. Most of the porters, except those who were scared of
losing their jobs, backed A. Philip Randolph in organizing
the Pullman porters, because they were getting very little pay
and had to pay some of their funds out for personal services.
Some of the porters were so militant about it, they ran into
bad repute with the company. Some of them lost their homes
because they lost their jobs. It took many years to do that.
Then there were the dining car employees but they were a little
different than the Pullman porters.

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier ;
Chall:

In what way?

They had a trade the cooks, waiters, and bartenders you see,
and they organized themselves. They came under the AFL then.
But they were a different union; they were a railraod union and
they were only men who worked for the railroad. Their union
was a little different than the Pullman porters.

Did they have the same struggle organizing?

They had a struggle organizing, but not as much as the Pullman
porters. Of course, the Pullman Company fought very hard to
keep the Pullman porters from being organized.

So the Pullman porters were employed by the Pullman even
though they ran on the train?

That s right. The Pullman cars ran on all of the railroads
but the Pullman Company was a company all of its own.

I was working

I see that s the difference.

It was the Pullman Company that hired the maids,
under and being paid By the Pullman Company.

Were your working conditions like the porters?

That s how I knew so much about the union, and met Mr. Randolph
many, many times, and was in the battle in getting the Pullman

I was here when Mr. Dellums [C.L.] came

Company organized,
here.

You were?
Yes.

He describes how difficult it was to organize the union: one,
because the Pullman Company did everything it could to fire
or *

*Interview with C.L. Dellums, International President of the
Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters and Civil Rights Leader,
Regional Oral History Office, University of California,
Berkeley, 1973.

Albrier: Yes, they would fire and intimidate the men. Some of them were
buying homes and had families, and couldn t afford it. It
scared them. Some would slip in and pay their dues ; some asked
not to use their names, and all those kinds of things.

Chall: That s right.

Albrier: I paid my dues in New Orleans. I didn t pay it out of here
because they couldn t see my name on a list. A lot of them
did in other cities.

Chall: He said that sometimes he would go to people s houses to get
the dues because he couldn t do it in the Pullman Company
hiring office.

Albrier: Yes. In the Pullman Company, no.

Chall: Some of the men would pay him, and some of the wives would be
very upset because they were afraid.

Albrier: To lose the job because at that time, the only job that a Negro
man could get was railroading.

Chall: Did you ever go and ask the men or try to approach their wives
to educate them about the need for the union? Did you do any
of that sort of thing?

Albrier: No. We didn t have an auxiliary of the Pullman porters. We

did, finally, have an auxiliary in the dining car union. When
Mr. Randolph would come to the city and have a mass meeting, I
would try to get the wives to come if their husbands couldn t
come to understand what he was trying to say and do for them,
and the reasons. There was a need to become organized and it was
a struggle; but they would benefit.

Some of those porters had eight to ten pairs of shoes they
had to shine, and they had to furnish the material out of their
own funds. Mr. Randolph brought all those things out how they
were exploited in their work. A lot of the black women didn t
understand the organization. They were frightened because that
was the only kind of job their husbands could get. Naturally,
they were frightened of losing the jobs because their families
would suffer, and they didn t feel it was worth fighting and
exposing themselves. Some of them were buying homes and were
educating their children.

Chall: And there was the Depression as well.
Albrier: And there was a Depression coming on as well.

Chall: Did you try to organize other maids or were you so isolated
that you never could be in touch with them?

Albrier: The maids joined the union with the brothers, the porters

throughout the United States South, East, and West that was
maids and Pullman porters on the Pullman cars .

Chall: Were there maids who did not sympathize with the union?

Albrier: There weren t many maids out here that sympathized with the

union. They weren t brought up under that militancy and they
didn t have the background that I had going through school at
Tuskegee and Howard. Our responsibility was trying to educate
the black public and the black women on these things. They
didn t understand economics; they only understood the need for
the job.

Chall: You had a privileged job no question about it. I guess any
woman who had it would feel so would feel that she had a
privileged job, especially if she s also supporting a family.

Albrier: Yes. A great many maids in the East didn t support the union.
They were too busy. Some did. Some gave contributions but
they didn t join because they were afraid their names would be
knoxvn if they had a card belonging to the union. They let the
men do it.

Chall: So this is a rather long period when you had your children
boarding.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How close together in age were your children? You were married
in 1922. Was the first one born about a year afterwards?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Then after that?

Albrier: Two years apart. Two girls and one boy.

Chall: About that time, then, you separated from Mr. Jackson.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was a reason why you didn t have more children. Did you
plan your family in any way? Was there any kind of birth
control information for women black or white in this area at
the time?

Albrier: No, I didn t plan, but I did a lot of reading on it.

Margaret Sanger was coming into the picture then. I read a
great deal about her and what she said about birth control.
Especially, I was interested in the other countries, like Africa,
China, or in those countries where there s a huge population.
I knew they were suffering women were suffering because of so
many births and increase in population. I think that still
stands good today.

Chall: There are many black women and men who resent the whole notion
of birth control. They say it s genocide.

Albrier: Yes, they do that from a religious standpoint. Then, aome

people have rationalized that it s a good way to destroy a race
of people. But I don t think so.

Chall: Did you, in the time you were giving advice to women through

whatever organizations you were doing it did you bring inform
ation about birth control to them or try to interest them in
planned parenthood?

Albrier: Many times, I did. A great many times I was rejected because
a great many of the black women were quite religious. Their
religious teachings and ministers were against birth control.

Chall: Even the Baptist women?

Albrier: Yes. The Baptist and the Methodist women. It was just in later
years that they have become educated to the real need,

Chall: What happened as you were working and not able to see your

children very much? Did you feel that they were getting good
family training? That they had a good home?

Albrier: Yes, I had a friend who took care of my children. She was just
like a mother to them, and they loved her. They had a home
background with her and her husband, so I didn t have that worry
about them.

Chall: You were fortunate.

Albrier: My work was keeping up with them and providing for them,
fact, I gave up everything for my children.

Chall: At that time.

Albrier: Yes. And as time went on, too. Getting them through school, and

seeing that they had the things they needed, and the education they
needed, and the environment that they needed.

Chall: In 1931, you said you were laid off from the Pullman Company?

Albrier: Yes. That was at the beginning of the Depression and the company
thought it was an extravagance, then, to have maids, so they laid
the maids off.

Chall: That s when you then went into WPA?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I m not sure when the Pullman strike took place. Was that later?
You weren t working for the Pullman Company, then, when they were
on strike?

Albrier: No.

Chall: Were you a reader of the Messenger then?

Albrier: The Messenger, yes. I had a run-in with one of the Pullman

officials and they tabbed me as being interested in the union.
They weren t so sure, but they tabbed me from what I said.
Whenever Mr. Randolph was coming out here, coming through, he would
always have meetings. The Pullman Company would call a meeting
on anything traffic, instructions.

Chall: The Pullman Company would call a meeting of their employees so

that they couldn t go and hear Randolph speaking, or so they could
speak against a union?

Albrier: And so they could talk to them about the unionism and tell them

what they wanted them to know. Instructor s meetings called safety
meetings.

Chall: You had to be there?

Albrier: We had to be there at safety meetings. Then they would drill

us and talk to us; then bring the union into it. They didn t see
why we were wasting our money belonging to Philip Randolph s
union. When we made so much money, we didn t need to be giving
it away to a union throwing it away on a union. And that the
company was providing jobs and employment, and we owed so much to
the company. This instructor said, "This Messenger. You shouldn t
be reading this Messenger. It s nothing but trash. It should be
relegated to the wastepaper basket."

Albrier: Mr. Randolph was out here and I had heard him speak on economics
at the University of California. I said, without thinking,
"You re wrong about that Messenger because Mr. Randolph, just the
other day, spoke to the University of California students on
economics. A man who is able to lecture at the University of
California in Berkeley on economics, certainly wouldn t write
trash."

Chall: Oh, my! [Laughs] You must have been pinned. They had your number
right there. Were the men startled to hear this lone woman
speaking up?

Albrier: No. Many of the men were proud. They said, "We re glad you
spoke up. We couldn t afford to." "Well," I said, "I guess
I ll lose my job, but I have a feeling we won t have jobs as maids
long anyway. If I lose my job, I ll get another one."

Chall: You didn t have as much to lose
Albrier: as the men did.

Chall: That was still courageous of you. As you said, you really

hadn t stopped to think that you were doing a courageous thing?
You just did it?

Albrier: No, I just did it because I became angry with him for saying some
thing like that. Then I became insulted that he should insult
me, telling me something like that.

Chall: What was his response? Anything that you d recall?

Albrier: He turned red as a beet and he said that he didn t mean it that
way; not in that particular way. When it came to the Pullman
Company and their employees, that it wasn t relevant to them at
all. It was a different matter.

Marriage to Willie Albrier, 1934

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier;

Chall:

You married Mr. Albrier in 1934. I assume you had been meeting
him in New Orleans. Was he a porter who lived in New Orleans
and got on the train in Los Angeles?

Yes. He was a lounge club car porter who served drinks. He
lived in New Orleans, but he was living out here at the time.
He was born and reared in New Orleans in the French section.
His mother was French. That s a French name. It s not Albrier;
it s All-bre-a. They say it right in New Orleans but out here they
say it like it s spelled. I don t correct them. [Chuckles]

His mother was a white Frenchwoman?

Yes.

And his father was black?

Yes.

My, how could they live in the South?

Oh, Louisiana is a state that s different from other states, you
see. France once owned Louisiana, and a lot of those people who
owned slaves were French. There are a great many people, even to
this day, who have black complexions and speak nothing but French
in Louisiana. They didn t have the feelings of discrimination
as they did in some other states, and they intermarried. That s
why they have the Creoles, the Indians, the French, the blacks
all mixed up .

That s right. They married among the Indians, too, in the early
western settlements and in Canada.

When I was on the Sunset Limited and ran into New Orleans, I was
surprised that in cities like Baton Rouge, I met black people who
couldn t speak English. Others I met white and black who spoke
a dialect they called the Cajun.

You had quite an experience.

Yes.

So when you married Mr. Albrier, he was about your age?
older than you?

Or was he

Albrier: He was three years older than I.

Chall: What kind of education had he had? What sort of background?

Albrier: He had gone through high school and two years at Xavier College
in New Orleans.

Chall: What did he do on the trains?

Albrier: He was supervisor and had charge of all the drinks in the lounge
car. They had lounge cars there was the bar in these cars.

Chall: So he had a responsible position?

Albrier: Yes, but he had a trade. His father was in the construction

business. I often heard him talk about Mr. Gompers, who started
the AFL. He had a trade as slate roofer. They don t have the
slates out here, but in New Orleans they had large buildings, and
all of them had slate roofs. That was his trade with his father.
He had a half-sister who came out here, and her husband. He was
a chef-cook and he influenced Mr. Albrier to come West.

Chall: What were their names?

Albrier: Swanigan.

Chall: Did they live in the Oakland-Berkeley area?

Albrier: They lived in East Oakland.

Chall: So you met him, then, on the train or here?

Albrier: I met him on the train.

Chall: Had he ever been married before?

Albrier: Yes. Once. His wife had passed.

Chall: Did he have children?

Albrier: One girl.

Chall: Was that right from the start, and all through a happy marriage?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Happier than your other one?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I notice that in your scrapbook, from time to time, it indicates
he would be at a meeting with you and speak up on something or
other, whatever it might be.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I noticed a letter that he had written to somebody at the same
time you were working on a campaign. So he participated.

Albrier: Yes, yes, he did. He was very active in the union, too. He was
very active in the organizing of the Dining Car Cooks and Waiters
Union Local 456, AFL.

Chall: He was a strong union person. He had started out as a youth with
the AFL.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: When you married, then, you decided to live here in Berkeley?
You decided to stay here?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did he have the same run from here to New Orleans and back?

Albrier: For a good while, he did. Then later, he ran on the Cascade to
Portland and on the Overland to Chicago. Most every year, he
took the University of California football team whenever they were
going to play someplace. They would call and ask for him.

Chall: After you married, you moved here to this house, 1621 Oregon Street,
What kind of neighborhood was it at that time?

Albrier: It was a mixed neighborhood. Japanese, Chinese, Italian, blacks,
all in this neighborhood. An integrated neighborhood.

Chall: Some whites?

Albrier: Yes, some whites.

Chall: But primarily mixed sort of other races and ethnic groups?

Albrier: Yes. In fact, my children went to Longfellow School. My son
was one of the escorts for our street traffic.

When one of the papers came to take their pictures, they said
they never saw such an interracial bunch of youngsters, because
they were all nationalities among those uniformed traffic boys.

Chall: Then you brought your family hack to you and then you lived
together as a family?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What were you then, a housewife?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: It wasn t necessary then

Albrier: Mr. Albrier was one of these old-fashioned men. They didn t

believe in wives working. They thought they should stay home and
take care of the homes and children. The responsibility was the
husband s .

Chall: But I noticed in your scrapbook that there was a letter written
to you in 1940. You were released [glancing at letter] You had
a letter from the California State Relief Administration on
March the first, 1940, that "owing to drastic cuts in relief
appropriations," they were cutting down their personnel and
services. Were you working as a social worker with the California
Relief Administration? That would have been in the [Culbert]
Olson administration.

Albrier: Was that Olson or was it

Chall: Well, it was 1940. Let s see, who was governor then?

Albrier: Olson, I think it was. [1938-1942]

Chall: I think so.

Albrier: Because he was the first Democratic governor for forty years. I
helped elect him. That s the year we had all of them elected.
"Olson, Downey, and Patterson" was the campaign song.
[Ellis] Patterson was lieutenant governor and [Sheridan] Downey
became Senator.

Chall: You don t recall, then, what you were doing with the California
Relief Administration?

Albrier: No, I don t quite remember that. What was it talking about?

Chall: It was a letter that said that owing to a drastic cut in relief

appropriations, they were going to have to cut out their services
and personnel; so you were being terminated.

Albrier: Oh that s when I was a caseworker.

Chall: I see, yes.

[Phone interruption]

Chall: I take it Mr. Albrier didn t mind your doing professional work,
social work, like that.

Albrier: At times I did. That time was during the Depression. After the
campaign, there were very few social workers employed. By my
activities, politically, I knew that I could get on as a caseworker.
I needed to get on as a caseworker because of so many complaints
from the black people and the white people from the mothers in the
community who were on WPA and different projects. They claimed that
they were not getting the things that they deserved, or the jobs
they deserved, or getting on the projects they deserved; making
the money that they deserved. So I became a caseworker.

The second year that Mr. Olson was in, the money ran out and
they had to cut back personnel. That s what that letter was about.

Chall: Were you separated? Was there segregation in the welfare department?

Albrier: No. But there was discrimination in cases, in different cases.

Some black women were never certified to some of the best projects
that made more money.

Chall: So it was discrimination

Albrier: There was a lot of it done through politics. I had xrorked very
hard and run for political office on the central committee.

Chall: That s right. You were on the Alameda County Central Committee
in 1938.

Albrier: I had access to a lot of files where I could find out things at
that time.

The Effects of the Depression on Unifying the Community

Chall :

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier;

Chall:

Albrier :

Chall:

Albrier;

After 1940, then, I guess you didn t work. What about the
Depression? What did the black community do about its own
unemployed? Jobs were hard to get and welfare was hard to obtain.
Did you work again, as you did in the South, through the churches?

During the Depression I think that the Depression was one of the
best years I ve known. That sounds funny, but the Depression
brought people together. If I wanted to have a community meeting,
all I would do is send out a call that we re going to have a
community meeting and we re going to talk about opening up certain
projects for the black people. All of the community would come.
We would meet with each other; converse with each other, and talk
to each other. The same thing, sometimes, to get them together,
we d have a little party. Everybody would bring something to the
party. We d have a nice exchange of ideas and meeting people.
We mec neighbors we had never met before.

The Depression brought people together better than anything
else that I know of. When the Depression was ending and the war
caiae and people became employed, they were separated and you never
saw them much after that. It was very hard to get them into
meetings, and together again.

It brought about a unity, then, that you hadn t had before,
these meetings in the churches that you called?

Were

We had meetings in the churches and the homes also. A great many
of them were in homes and neighborhoods, and community buildings.
A great many of them were neighborhood meetings. We d have the
meetings especially political meetings, and meetings to inform
people in the community in the homes. Someone would give their
house and have the meeting. The next time, we d have a meeting in
another block.

You were unifying not just the black people, but all the people in
the neighborhood as well?

Yes.

It was still mixed?

Yes.

Chall : Were you among what would be considered a few of the privileged
black women who didn t have to work at that time?

Albrier: Yes. During the Depression, a great many of the railroad men were
laid off, but Mr. Albrier was never laid off. He was still
employed. They changed him. He had to run from Sacramento to
Los Angeles. They gave him that type of run. But he was never
laid off.

Chall: That was a privilege.

In terms of aid, like food baskets, clothing, and things of
this kind, which I m sure many people unemployed needed, was this
done through the churches for your community?

Albrier: During the Depression years, the WPA years, they had these large

sewing projects and they made clothing for people. They were issued
out through the social workers, the social department. People would
apply or request clothing, blankets, quilts, sheets, et cetera. If
a mother needed two or three dresses for girls, ten or twelve, that
requisition was sent in and they got those types cf things.

Chall: So that helped.

Albrier: Yes. Excepting the Youth Conservation. There weren t many things
to outfit boys who went on the NYA. I remember that when I was a
caseworker. The only churches that had a program and a sewing room
were the Catholic churches and the Seventh Day Adventists. They
had clothing rooms for the needy. A youth came in needing a couple
pairs of corduroys because he was going on an NYA project into the
mountains. We d send a call to either of those two churches and
they would find the corduroys and outfit the youngster.

It was through that that I gave a call to the churches to have
a storage room and a sewing room. Today, those churches still have
that. I told them why that we only had those two congregations
that had that type of service and those were the only ones that we
social workers and caseworkers could call on, when we didn t have
enough money to outfit the youngster with clothing. When there
was money available, we gave them a requisition to a store, but
the money was depleted and we had to cut down. We had to go back
to the communities.

It was then that I met any number of the churches and
organizations. I told them that they needed to have a storage room
for any kind of a catastrophe. If their members were making jelly,
they should make a few extra glasses of jelly and bring it to the
storage room. The missionaries do that. If they had a coat, and

Albrier: were tired of the coat, have it cleaned and take it to the storage
room. Then they were prepared to supply these families who were in
need of these articles.

Chall: Did you try to have a food bank, too?
Albrier: Yes.

Family Life and Church

Chall: What church did you join eventually, after you left or did you
leave the Nazarene Church after you were first married?

Albrier: After I married, I left the Nazarene Church I didn t attend any

church very much. Later, when I moved in this community, I attended
the McGee it was called Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church at that time.
It s now McGee Avenue Baptist Church. I attended that through my
children. My children liked to go there to Sunday school.

I had the old-fashioned idea like my grandmother had reared
me I thought that children should go to church, especially to
Sunday school. I didn t bother them about the rest of the church
services if they didn t want to attend. But I thought they should
always attend Sunday school. All the children in this neighborhood
went to Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church, now McGee Avenue, because it
happened that most of them belonged there, or their friends did. So
my children went there, too. Two of them were baptized there in
that church.

Later, a minister left and the church kind of broke up, and they
asked me to be secretary. I took the books and was secretary of
the church for about two years or more. It was still Mt . Pleasant
Baptist Church.

Chall: Did they pay you to be secretary?

Albrier: No.

Chall: It was just a volunteer position?

Albrier: Just a volunteer.

Chall: Did Mr. Albrier attend church? What were his feelings about church?

Albrier: Mr. Albrier was reared a Catholic. He deviated from Catholic

teachings because I wasn t a Catholic. I think he was always a
Catholic at heart, but he would enjoy all of the churches. He
would go to the Protestant church, and if he felt like going and
talking to the priest or going to the Catholic church, he would go
to Mass. But he never tied down to any of theni afterwards. He
was a Mason; his father was a Mason.

Chall: That s interesting because I thought Catholics couldn t be Masons.
[Chuckles]

Albrier: They don t. He asked his mother his father was a Mason and she
gave her consent for him to join a Masonic lodge.

Chall: They took him in because his father was.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: So it was his mother who was the Catholic.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did he have other relatives besides his half-sister who had moved
out here?

Albrier: Other relatives?

Chall: Yes. Did he have other relatives who stayed in New Orleans?

Albrier: His mother still lived when we married; she passed later. And two
sisters. One sister is still living; the other one s passed.

Chall: Were they a close family? Did they try to get together very often
even though they were separated by distance?

Albrier: They were very close while their mother lived. She would have them
all come they would all go to see her.

Chall: Was she an interesting woman?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was she an educated woman?

Albrier: I don t know how much education she had. I think she d gone through
high school.

Chall: How was Mr. Albrier as a father of three pretty well-grown children
when he took on the responsibility? Did the children like him?

Albrier: The children just adored Mr. Albrier, and he loved them. They just
took to each other. He liked children, anyway.

Chall: It was fortunate.

Albrier: Yes. Well, I had my children very well trained. My son always

wanted to have a dad somebody he could call Dad because all his
friends had a father. So when Mr. Albrier came on the scene, he
just immediately adopted him.

The Berkeley-Oakland Pattern of Discrimination

Chall: I see. Well, wasn t that fine? So there you were, a family, after
all those years.

If this was an area that was not segregated and you didn t find

much segregation in Berkeley, what about theaters if you

wanted to go to a movie? Did blacks have to sit in any part of the
theater?

Albrier: Not in California.
Chall: Not anywhere?
Albrier: Not that I know of.

Chall: So there really was no problem, as far as you knew, about being out
in the community, being accepted?

Albrier: No. In public, you weren t discriminated it was mostly in employ
ment. But in public, you weren t discriminated in the theaters.
You weren t discriminated in the church, or opera, or any of those
places where you might go. Nor transportation street cars or
trains. California was like the northern states.

But there was discrimination began to be discrimination in
housing, if you were black. The youth, the children, felt
discrimination in some of the schools with the teachers.

Chall: That would be coming along in the thirties then?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I see. What about if you wanted to go to a local restaurant and
have dinner? Any problems about going there?

Albrier: Yes. Yes. There was discrimination in some restaurants, in a great
many of the restaurants. There was discrimination in the hotels.
If they caught you by yourself, they told you politely that they
didn t serve black people. If you were with another person, they d
tell you, "We d appreciate it if you not be served because of this
policy that we don t serve black people. We ll serve you this
time." if they felt you might sue.

I was very active in politics when Gus [Augustus] Hawkins was
the first black assemblyman. Gus Hawkins authored a bill making
it unlawful to discriminate against a person. If you did, you d be
fined no less than a hundred dollars. At that time, a hundred
dollars was quite a bit of money. So, if you went to a restaurant
and you were alone, then you had no witness that you were
discriminated against. They just nicely told you they couldn t
serve youthey were sorry. Or they let you sit there, and sit
there, and sit there, and not serve you, until you d get up and
leave. A great many places made mistakes like that.

When there were two people together, and they would tell them
that, then they would sue them and get the hundred dollars.

Chall: As soon as the law came in, a few blacks became militant enough to
take advantage of that?

Albrier: A few of them did; especially some of the young people.

Chall: I don t remember when Augustus Hawkins came in, but it was when
around the early forties.*

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Before that, in the twenties, when you had first moved out here,
was there discrimination in the hotels and restaurants then?

Albrier: I don t know because I didn t go to the hotels and the restaurants
in the twenties. Mostly, I was home. I don t remember what my

*Augustus Hawkins first term in the assembly was the 51st. session,
1935.

Albrier: father said about that. But I noticed all of the black people
went to their own restaurants. They had one restaurant on
Seventh Street. Seventh Street was a very popular street. There
was a black restaurant down there where the black people always
went to dinner when the wanted to go out.

Chall: That might be an indication of some segregation in eating.

Albrier: Yes. Now there was discrimination in housing because when I got
this house, they didn t sell black people housing, only below
Grove Street.

Chall: So that was really a change from what it was in the early twenties
when you moved out here?

Albrier: Yes, that was a change because before then, they lived all over

wherever they could afford to rent. A great many of them couldn t
afford to rent in the most exclusive district because they didn t
have the employment. And there were not many black families
during the twenties and thirties.

Chall: This was then rapidly becoming well, as you point out, it was a
minority community.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: The Japanese and Chinese were certainly separated out too, until
after the war.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did you know Delilah Beasley, the author of The Negro Trail Blazers
of California?* Could you tell me something about her and her work
in Oakland?**

*Delilah L. Beasley, The Negro Trail Blazers of California,
Los Angeles, 1919. Reprinted by Rand E. Associates, through the
courtesy of the California Historical Society and the San Francisco
Negro Historical and Cultural Society, 1970.

**See answer on page 97.

MISS DELILAH L. BEASLEY

Miss Beasley was our pioneer in recording Black People s
participation, along with other races and nationalities, in
California History. She labored eight years in research and
compiling her work, The Negro Trail Blazers of California,
which is a reference book on California History.

I was fortunate to meet her in the Northern Federation
of Colored Women s Clubs, The Women s Art and Industrial Club.
I am thankful and grateful that I was fortunate to spend many
delightful hours with her. At times she was ill and unable
to write. I was one of the younger women she talked and
communicated with about Black Women s Participation in History,
and about compiling her book about Black People.

She was a wonderful inspiration. I have never known a
more generous, kind, devout, talented, understanding, loyal,
articulate, inspiring and compassionate person than
Delilah Beasley.

Frances Albrier

[This was written by Mrs. Albrier in answer to the previous
question inserted during the initial editing of the transcript.]

IV ACTIVITIES ON BEHALF OF "EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITES FOR NEGROES

[Interview 4: December 14, 1977]
[begin tape 4, side 1]

Organizing Local 456; Dining Car Cooks, Waiters and Miscellaneous

Chall: Today we want to talk about your experiences in what I ve labeled
black employment issues. These all seem to have to do with the
same thing, that is, finding ways of getting Negroes jobs when
they were difficult to come by.

I thought I d start with your work with the Ladies Auxiliary
of Dining Car Workers. That really had to do with your husband s
employment, but what else? What was the Auxiliary formed to do
that s the Local 456. Why were you so active in it?

Albrier: In the 1920s and the 1930s, there was not any employment for

Negro men in the Bay Area, except on the railroads. The Southern
Pacific in the twenties would bring to the Bay Area black families
so that they could employ the men on the railroads. Some worked
outside; some worked in machine shops; some worked in the engines
department cleaning the engines and taking care of them, and
changing them from one track to another. Others worked on the
trains as porters, cooks, and waiters.

The Southern Pacific brought many families I don t know just
how many, but many families came West at that time. The Southern
Pacific brought them from places like Houston, Texas, where they
had large shops, out West to work for the railroad. They were,
as you know, like the Mexican people, cheap labor. Others were
employed by the Pullman Company and railroads, which were
Southern Pacific, Santa Fe, and the Western Pacific railroads,
out of Oakland.

Albrier: For a great many years those men were not organized. It was during
the 1930s the latter part of the twenties and thirties that
attention was called to this large source of labor, unorganized
and being exploited, by A. Philip Randolph in New York City who
began to organize the Pullman porters. That was quite a battle.
That was the first beginning of civil rights in labor for the black
man throughout the country and it was quite a struggle.

Many of the men began to realize the idea of being organized
and stop being exploited by the railroads; they went into the
organization of the Sleeping Car Porters and became officers in
the organization who were fighting to keep it going, because there
were so many men who were agreeing with it, but were afraid,
because they were intimidated and afraid of losing their jobs,
which a great many did lose. Some of them, in losing their jobs,
because they were buying homes, lost their homes.

In the meantime, the dining car workers began to think about
their being in the same predicament as the Pullman porters and being
exploited. In the cities, there were unions which were fighting
for their rights, labor, and who were picketing the chefs, the
bartenders, waiters and waitresses all were in an uproar at that
time. In fact, the whole labor movement was going through a
definite struggle for survival and organization. It was at that
time they drew in the black workers of the railroads. Those were
the largest groups of black workers in America the railroads not
only the state of California here, but throughout the United States.

Chall: Did the AFL accept them into the union?

Albrier: The AFL did not accept them into the unions. In some unions, in
some cities, I understand, there might have been two or three
blacks, but they were not accepted in numbers. They were outside
of the unions. Employers took advantage of it. Each side became
hostile to the other. The black workers were hostile to the AFL
because of their discrimination in the unions. The employer would
say, "Well, I d hire you; you re qualified, but I can t hire you
because my employees come through the union. If you have a union
card, then I will employ you." It was at that time that Local 456
was formed by Mr. Joe Easely and other railroad men.

Chall: This was a local black organization that had nothing to do with
the AFL, is that it?

Albrier: No. They were Dining Car Cooks and Waiters, Local 456, AFL.

They formed themselves into an organization and then, later, they
became a union. Through hardship and struggle and battling with
the AFL, they became initiated into the AFL as a union.

100

Chall: How did the AFL finally accept them?

Albrier: It was the only one the only one of the black unions in the

West that was affiliated with AFL in these crafts. But they were
a discriminatory union, because they were black and they were a
railroad union. The AFL was beginning to take notice of the
trouble at that time which the conductors and the workers in other
departments of labor white were having with the railroads. It
was to their advantage to organize the blacks also and to take them
into the union, but not into their union, but as a separate union.

That s how Local 456 became involved. There was another local
on the Union Pacific, I think it was 452. They were members of the
AFL. The two AFL and CIO had not been united at that time.

Then the members began to work as a union and to encourage
other railroad men to belong to the union. A great many of them
disagreed about belonging to the union because a great number were
being employed anyway, whether they belonged to the union or not.
They asked why should they pay dues and not get any more advantages
than they have? The union had to organize in the West and they
organized in the East, and they had their own conventions to sort
out their own problems. Usually their problems were a battle with
AFL on things that they wanted.

In the meantime, Mr. Randolph had organized the Pullman
porters. He was always a delegate to the national AFL organization.
It was there he would tell of the plight and give the cause of
black workers in America, especially on the railroads. The Pullman
porters union was the forefront of black workers in the unions.

In the meantime, after the Local 456 became organized, then
they organized the Women s Auxiliary. Because unless they had the
women behind the men their wives interested in the labor and the
grievances of labor, the men would become disappointed and
discouraged. They had a message to give out to the public and to
the people on unionism. In fact, they were the first pioneers in
labor.

The Auxiliary and its Role

Chall: The Women s Auxiliary?
Albrier: The Women s Auxiliary.

101

Albrier: The National AFL chartered Local 456. They had a charter as the
Railroad Cooks, Waiters, and Miscellaneous Help; it was a hotel
workers union, also. They could take into their membership any
person in those crafts. They were able to help inany blacks who
were not railroad people to be employed.

For instance, I remember a black woman. It was Kahns Store
it s now Liberty House they changed the name of that store.
It was called Kahns then. The woman applied at Kahns to be a cook
in the cafeteria at lunch time. They advertised for such a cook.
The manager was so pleased with her being such a cook and her
capabilities, he told her that he would love to employ her, but she
had to belong to the union, and to go to the union and see if she
couldn t join the union. If she did, they would employ her. But
the unions the white unions didn t take any black women as cooks
or chefs. I met her downtown somewhere and she was telling me,
and I said, "Oh, yes, you can become a union member. You go to
Local 456 and join Local 456. They hold a charter for chefs and
cooks." And she did. She joined and took her card back and
she was employed. After that, a great many waitresses and chefs,
second cooks third cooks, and dishwashers in the City
[San Francisco] belonged to Local 456, because Local 33 did not
take blacks in their union.

In 38 or 39, the cooks, waiters, hotel workers, and
miscellaneous workers began to admit blacks into their union.
They called the blacks out of Local 456 because Local 456 was
getting to be so large and having a large membership. There were
members who really belonged to the other local because Local 456
and 452 were railroad unions.

So they went to the national that year and were told they
could take these blacks in their union. So they recalled all the
blacks who belonged to Local 456, who worked in the City across
the bay in those crafts, into their union. But we would not let
them go into the union until we were sure they would get all of
the protection that other union members did. That was one of the
struggles in the Bay Area in labor between the black men. That
was done through the help of the Women s Auxiliary being involved,
and understanding the rules, and why labor was organizing, and why
they would have the different activities, and why they would strike,
and negotiation problems of labor. It was an education to all of
us in those days because it was something that hadn t been done
before.

Chall: So you were really a support group for the men who were in the
union?

102

Albrier: I wasn t the first president, but 1 became, I think, the third

person who was president of Local 456 Auxiliary of Dining Car Cooks
and Waiters. I attended many of their national conventions, being
president, and became involved in labor. In the meantime, the
Depression was on and in the Bay Area was formed a Labor s Non-
Partisan League.

Labor s Non-Partisan League; Getting Workers Into Politics

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :
Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

I want to know more about that,
also interracial.

It was non-partisan and it was

Yes, it was interracial and non-partisan.

Non-partisan means that Democrats and Republicans is that what
they meant by non-partisan?

Yes. Also labor, too.

I see. Not partisan as far as which union you were in.

In crafts. That means all labor and all crafts.

What was the reason for that forming?
League? What was its goal?

The Labor s Non-Partisan

That was formed to educate the masses of people in labor and to
educate them in politics. The importance of voting, the importance
of getting out the vote, the importance of getting persons in
offices that favored your ideas, and your organization, and your
predicament. People who were interested in labor and what they
were fighting for. At that time, we were beginning to have
President Roosevelt run for office. Both black and white labor
favored Roosevelt, but they knew they had to organize and be able
to draw on organizations in order to support a president like
Roosevelt .

Also in state politics, there were people who had never
thought of politics before. Some had voted and some hadn t voted.
They had never given any thought of belonging to any organization
that dealt in any form with politics, because they hadn t been
interested. They x^ere too busy earning a living and going about
their own affairs. To get these people under an umbrella and be
able to educate them and to give them literature is why the
Labor s Non-Partisan League was formed in order to reach the masses
of people in the Bay Area.

103

Chall: I saw a letterhead of Labor s Non-Partisan League I think it was
only men, as I recall, except for Jennie Matyas I noticed on the
executive committee. Except for working closely with them when
you wanted something done ab-out black hiring, did you have any
specific organizational contact with the league?

Albrier: The Labor s Non-Partisan League was organized in districts.* I

then lived in the Seventeenth Assembly District. We ve lost one
of those districts due to population. At that time, I think that
was in 39, I lived in the Seventeenth Assembly District and I
served as the Seventeenth Assembly District s treasurer.

Chall: On the Non-Partisan League.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was as a result of your being a part of the auxiliary of
Local 456?

Albrier: Yes, yes.

Chall: This had to be people concerned with labor?

Albrier: Yes. They would take in other members who were interested, also.
Most of the people were employed at that time that we were reach
ing, doing something. Even housewives joined Labor s Non-Partisan
League because they were employed in some form or another. Some
were secretaries. Some were doing one thing or the other. The
cooks in private homes, and maids in private hones, all joined the
Labor s Non-Partisan League. They would come to the organizational
meeting, community meetings, and they would join; no one was
turned away.

Chall: As long as he worked.

Albrier: That s right.

Chall: That s an unusual concept.

Albrier: Yes. It was a matter of mass education of the people into politics
and what it meant to them as people, especially people who were
in labor and did all kinds of labor work. It was a bringing
together of them.

*The main headquarters listed on the letterhead was 1095 Market
Street, San Francisco.

104

Chall: What were you doing in this?

Albrier : In the Labor s Non-Partisan League, those of us who were interested
became precinct workers. We took a course in political science
those who hadn t had the course. We got an idea of what it meant
to be a precinct worker. A great many of us became precinct
workers. We became leaders in our communities or in our precincts.
I was one who was in the precinct and did precinct work.

The East Bay Women s Welfare Club:
Berkeley, 1938-1943*

Hiring Negro Teachers in

Albrier: In the meantime, I had gone into politics on other issues besides
Labor s Non-Partisan League. I became interested in the employ
ment of black teachers in the Berkeley schools. I noticed there
was no employment of black people in Berkeley schools, but that
didn t come especially through labor. My attention was drawn out
by black students my children and other children who were going
to school, who noted there wasn t a black teacher in the school.
If faculty called them or they had a grievance, they had to go in
front of the faculty, there wasn t a black face that they could
turn to who understood them. They were expressing those ideas.
That awakened me that that s right, we had no black teachers in
Berkeley schools. We did have two in Oakland.

Chall: I see, two. One was Ida

Albrier: Jackson.

Chall: Who was the other one? Do you remember her name?

Albrier: She came on later. Beth Wilson.

Chall: So they had a kind of token hiring in Oakland, but none at all in
Berkeley. Did you consider that a token hiring in Oakland? Those
two teachers?

Albrier: I don t know. I wasn t involved in their hiring in Oakland. When
we became aware that we had nothing in Berkeley at that time, there
were teachers in Oakland and we were aware we didn t hava any
representation. When students my children and other children
were discussing this and were explaining it and telling me about
it, I did research and found that we had no representation in the
schools.

*See Also Intruduction by Ruth Acty.

104a

V-

The celebration of
Miss Ida Jackson

"In her quiet but highly effective way.
Miss Ida L. Jackson has been one of the
most outstanding graduates the Univer
sity of California at Berkeley has ever
produced." These words were part of the
moving tribute paid to Miss Jackson by
out-going Alumni Association President
Earl Willens 56 when he presented her
with the California Alumni Citation last
June at the annual Commencement
Luncheon. A standing ovation followed
the presentation.

For Miss Jackson, it was an astonish
ing contrast to her first days as a Cal
student "At the time, 1920, there were
eight Negro women and nine Negro men
enrolled on the Berkeley campus. One
of the most difficult problems I faced
was entering classes day after day, sitting
beside students who acted as if my seat
were unoccupied, showing no signs of
recognition, never giving a smile or a
nod." But even in those cold, early days
here there were moments that kept Ida
from being discouraged: "One day I had
the privilege and great honor of being
spoken to by and chatting with President
Benjamin Ide Wheeler. I left inspired
and figuratively walking on air."

Ida Jackson received her B.A. in 1922
and her M.A. the following year. Her
thesis was entitled "The Development
of Negro Children in Relation to Edu
cation," a topic she chose "primarily
because I felt that factors other than

inherited mentality affected the IQ of
an individual. And at the time there was
a widely accepted notion that the
Negro s highest mental age was fifteen."

She went on to become the first black
teacher in the Oakland public schools.
Despite her advanced training (at Co
lumbia University s Teachers College)
and broad experience (including a term
as dean of women at Alabama s Tuske-
gee Institute) she remained a classroom
teacher all of her 27 years with the
Oakland schools. She recalls being told
by one of her superintendents: "The
time is not ripe for a Negro principal."

Ida Jackson, however, always took her
work beyond her job. In the 1930s she
founded a summer school for rural
teachers in her native Mississippi ("I had
the idea that if somehow the trained and
educated Negroes could spend some
time in the South, teaching the teachers
of rural Negroes, they could in turn
inspire the young Negro with the
courage I felt he needed to improve his
lot"). She went on to organize a traveling
health clinic that brought medical care
and education to plantation workers and
their families. When Eleanor Roosevelt
learned of these projects, she invited
Miss Jackson to the White House and
praised her work.

New retired. Miss Jackson still main
tains close ties to Berkeley, which in 1970
bestowed upon her the Berkeley Cita
tion. She remembers how essential the
moral support, encouragement, and
guidance provided by her professors and
deans were to her success as a student,
and she performs a similar service for
many of today s undergraduates. She
regularly spends days in California Hall
informally counseling students, sharing
her experiences, offering whatever guid
ance she can and, sometimes, "a few
dollars that make the difference."

"A great many of us have been aware
of the shortcomings of society, its injus
tices, and have tried all our lives to
change, ameliorate, and correct them. I
am more than ever convinced that edu
cation is the greatest factor in the up
ward climb of any person or people,"
states Ida Jackson.

"The University of California has
done for thousands what it has done for
me: it has enabled me to realize the vast
avenues of learning and culture to be
explored, and strengthened a desire to
try, and in the exploration to take others
along on the journey."

105

Albrier: Through my education, and the Labor s Non-Partisan League, and in
politics, I formed the East Bay Women s Welfare Club of mothers.
We had a small Mothers Club. But we weren t organized; it was
just a little Mothers Club to get together. Then I found out that
we needed an organization to express ourselves and our grievances
in the community.

This Mothers Club did some research into how many taxpayers
were in Berkeley; how many black people were taxpayers. We found
out that then there was discrimination. Most black people lived
below Grove Street. A few lived above Telegraph they were old-
timers. Most of them who came into the city would buy homes below
Grove Street, between University and Alcatraz. So we sent out a
committee to do some research to find out how many people living
in Berkeley were taxpayers, and we found out that in this area
there were 5,000 taxpayers in the city of Berkeley.

Then we came to the information that we had no representation
those taxpayers had no representation in the city government.
We had np_ teachers in the schools, we didn t even have a janitor
or a clerk. We didn t have a recreation leader in the parks.
We didn t have anything. So that was the beginning of the East Bay
Women s Welfare Club.

Chall: How did you gather these women together? I mean, did you pick the
women you thought would be helpful to you or did you just call a
large group together by issuing an announcement?

Albrier: I knew them because a great many of them I met in church, and a
great many of them I met in the Northern Federation it s
Association now Association of Colored Women s Clubs. But in
northern California was a Northern Federation of Colored Women s
Clubs. Many of them were members of the Northern Federation of
Colored Women s Clubs. They were clutr women and in the auxiliary
[Local 456].

Chall: You had gotten around a bit, so you knew quite a few women who
could be organized to help you achieve your goal.

106

Candidate for the Berkeley City Council, 1939

Albrier: Yes. Then 1 involved my pastor, who was the pastor, Reverend
Arthur Johnson of the St. Paul Methodist Church in Oakland. I
talked to him as a member on these ideas we had and what we were
thinking about. And I talked to Attorney George Vaughns. There was
one more, Robert Johnson. They said, "Why don t you run for
council for the city council? If you want to do these things,
why not run for city council so that you can tell everybody that
we are paying all these taxes without representation?" So they
became my committee. I filed for city council.

Chall: I don t have my notes with me, but I m assuming that you filed and
ran for city council before you managed to get Miss [Ruth] Acty
into the schools?

Albrier: That s way after that.

Chall: If we can then, I d like to stay with this whole matter of getting
Miss Acty hired as a teacher.

Albrier: I m bringing it down point by point.

Chall: I see, Miss Acty came afterwards then. Okay, I just wanted to get
it in chronological order. First they suggested that you run for
city council. That would be your best way to get representation.

Albrier: Yes.
Chall: So you ran.

Albrier: So I ran I filed and ran for city council, which was very unusual
for a woman to do. [Chuckles]

Chall: A black woman at that. [Laughs]

Albrier: We women hadn t become very active in politics. They knew some
thing about it, but they weren t active in running for offices.
But I knew that I didn t file or run to be elected I didn t chink
I would be elected, because I didn t think that people were broad-
minded enough to elect a black woman. But I was in for a surprise.
I received a great many votes. My idea of running was to meet the
people. I knew that if I ran for city council, I would be invited
to the clubs and organizations to give my views on the city govern
ment. I wanted to tell them that we had 5,000 taxpayers without
any representation in the city government or the schools of
Berkeley. That was the message I wanted to get over to them because
later we had planned to make an issue.

107

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :
Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier:

Chall :

Albrier:

So you were taking this, then, just step by step for the
educational phase?

Yes.

You ran a campaign, though, with leaflets and precinct walkers
the usual bit, is that it?

Yes.

Three men in charge.

Yes. There were four men, but I can t think of the other name.
I ll have to look it up in my notes.

Did you raise some money among your friends to print the material?

Yes. This committee raised some money and got out leaflets and
data in it. I met with the black organizations, and they were very
excited that a black person was running for city council.
[Chuckles]

How about your family?
of you?

Your husband and your children were back

In the meantime, when I ran for city council, Labor s Non-Partisan
League didn t agree. Some of the members didn t agree. They
thought that I shouldn t run because they had a candidate who was
running from Labor s Non-Partisan League in this district
Brownlee Sherik. He was a laundry wagon driver, a union member.
They thought that the people in Berkeley would not vote for me
because I was black and that he_ would have a better chance and
they would get their candidate elected. They sent a committee to
ask me to withdraw, and I would not withdraw. Mr. Albrier stood
back of me that I should not withdraw because I had a different
type of issue the reason why I was running.

After the election, the East Bay Women s Welfare Club and I
met and decided what our next project should be on getting our
teachers in the schools. When, after the election, we decided to
meet with the board of education and to tell them that we were
decided, they were very well aware of it because we had made that
a subject in the campaign. So we decided to meet with the board
of education, and to meet with the board of education until we got
the meeting out into the public.

In the meantime, Walter Gordon, who was very prominent in
Berkeley city affairs, thought that it should not be brought out
into the public, that the board of education should not make it a

108

Albrier: public issue that we should meet with the board itself. Anyway,

we met with the board about four or five times and thrashed out all
kinds of issues.

The first thing we had to do was to get the girls to apply,
because any mumber of them said they had applied and were turned
down. They knew that their application was thrown, when they left,
in the wastepaper basket. We told them, "You apply anyway. We
can t fight for teachers in the schools unless you apply and you
have applications in there." So five applied. I think those
five are in my scrapbook.

Chall: Yes, they are and the questionnaire they filled out about their
backgrounds and their treatment as applicants .

Albrier: Dr. Louise Hector was the chairman of the board of education and
was quite understanding of our problem. She approved of what we
were doing, herself. She felt that not only should black teachers
be in school, but other races, teachers, should be in the schools
and that we would have to come to that someday. It was just her
thoughts herself. We had a good ally with her on our problems.
We met four or five times with the board of education and had all
kinds of confrontations [laughter] with the members.

Chall: Was that in public?

Albrier: No, that was in their own meeting. That was in closed meetings.

Chall: You would go, a small committee of you, and talk to them?

ALbrier: Yes, and then we finally Walter Gordon had told Dr. Hector that
he didn t think we should make it a public issue and go out into
the public about teachers in the schools. He thought that we
should iron it out with the board. But the last meeting that we
had, we demanded that we make a public issue out of it. We had
these five girls who had applied two of them that they thought
very well of as being teachers; one of them was Ruth Acty and
the other was Mary Labuzan. Both of those girls had done some
teaching. Mary Labuzan was teaching part-time in San Francisco.
Ruth Acty had taught in the Valley in schools.

108a

C&p

1&&,

(lu^t^t

*&lt;&-J

109

Achieving the Policy of Non-Discrimination in Hiring

Albrier: Then a date was set when we would bring this issue out in a public
meeting. It was brought out in the public meeting and everybody
talked. It was in the papers.* People came up and talked for
these teachers and others didn t know why they didn t have the
teachers. At that time, we elected the superintendent of schools
he was elected by the people. They ve changed that now, but he
was elected by the people of Berkeley, the voters of Berkeley.
The superintendent was very well aware of that. When the question
came up, when he had recommended eighteen teachers to teach in the
schools the next coming year, the question was asked if any of them
were Negro girls. He said no. They asked why. He said to them,
"I have been given no kind of authority to recommend teachers to
teach in Berkeley schools, other than Caucasians." Then the board
became quite upset because they weren t aware; they hadn t thought
of that. Then Dr. Hector said, "Well, that means we have to set
a policy and we ll have to hand down a policy for teachers to
teach in Berkeley schools. We ll do that by the next meeting.
We ll have two weeks and the board will be meeting to hand down
this policy."

Chall: I couldn t figure out why they needed a policy for hiring anybody.
Albrier: Well, they did at that time.
Chall: I see.

Albrier: Then it came out in the papers. The papers got to this meeting

and found out when the board was going to meet to set this policy
for black teachers to teach in Berkeley schools. It was so wide
spread, so much talk about it, the board room was full in the
Berkeley auditorium. There were people from Oakland, retired
teachers, everybody came to hear this policy. I met some retired
teachers and they said they just came to hear. They hadn t made
any decisions of their own, but they just wanted to hear.

Dr. Hector got up and said, after certain business and
procedures were taken care of, "Now, we will read to you the
policy to be handed down to the future boards of the city of

*See Berkeley Gazette and Oakland Tribune, September 21, 1939.

109a

WE THE UNDERSIGNED PLEDGE OURSELVES TO SUPPORT THE EAST BAY WOMEN S CLUB, IN THEIR

EFFORTS TO SECURE EQUAL RIGHTS FOR THE NEGRO CITIZENS.

V-ic., rr d-^c

109b

...... "

110

Albrier: Berkeley on the appointment of teachers in the Berkeley schools.
This board has concurred that we will be guided by the fourteenth
and the fifteenth amendments of the Constitution of the United States
of America. That teachers will be recommended to teach in Berkeley
schools regardless of race, creed, or color on merit."

Chall: That was a signal victory for all of you. I want to go back to
what it was like when you were having, as you say, four or five
meetings in private with the board your committee. What could
they say to you about not hiring a black teacher in private, I
mean. In private, they might say something different from what
they were going to say in public. You were trying this quiet,
cautious approach that Walter Gordon wanted to try. For what
point? Did you win anything by taking this approach?

Albrier: We were asked all kinds of questions. One of the board members
was a Mason. One of the women who belonged to the East Bay
Women s Welfare Club challenged him because he was a Mason, and
she told him he should pull off this Masonic emblem if he didn t
think the time was right that we should employ black teachers in
the schools and that black teachers should teach white children.
A great exchange of ideas and sentiments between the members and
the board went on behind those closed doors.

Chall: Were they prejudiced? Dr. Hector wasn t, and I guess Walter Steil-
berg would appear not to have been. One of the men seemed

Albrier: I think there s a letter in the scrapbook from Dr. Steilberg
afterwards.

Issues: Radicals; Opposition Among Blacks and Whites

Chall: A lovely, fine letter. There was a man named Mr. Ziegler, who was
rather opposed, quite opposed. He seemed to feel that hiring
blacks would just encourage some of the I guess radical groups,
who took it up as a cause.

Albrier: In the meantime, during that, the radical groups were organizing
throughout the Bay Area in everything for employment. They
would have mass meetings. Then they would have fights. A
great many people would be arrested. And all that publicity that
they were having in the neighborhoods. It was the beginning of a
new era and a new school of thought, but it was brought about in
the communities by the radical element. They were among all of
the people. They were among the Negro people. They were agitating
them on certain things and they were becoming very bitter about
conditions.

llOa

WALTER T. STEILBERG

CONSULTING ARCHITECT

85 SECOND STREET, SAN FRANCISCO

CARFIELD 3461

September 25, 193 :

:.:rs. Frances Albrier
1C21 Cre.-on S.reet
Berkeley, California

Dear i:.rs. Albrisr:

^ - : iicLi ti^a^t of, the resolution respecting the employment of r.nr-Ceueaclor^s ^
in the ^rj- cle-- School Department, has been submitted to j&e-jaihe r member * of the
Board and to our executive officers for review and critic! sr;i._ This notion will
be nad- at the rext me - ting of the Board, ..ednesday e^rnin^,, September 27th and I
hiv reasons to hope that it-will be carried and that your groxxp will be satisfied
with the policy r:hich the Board will then establish.

i.ith -he purpose of advancing your ovm interests, I wish to ask you and your
p-roup to r;ei"h most carefully the following; considerations: (l) ^acial tolerance
is a noble ideal, but racial prejudice is a hard fact. Your Board of -Education
is obliged to det.1 v.-ith this fact; hoy/ever unreasonable ar.d unfair their prejudices
nay be, some of our most able and public spirited citizens still cherish the illusion
of T ordic superiority. Those of us in public office who are sympathetic to your

cause and believe lit? rally in the Fourteenth Anendnent of the Constitution, canrot
ignore the views of those who think otherwise. In my opinion, these strange prejudice;

ere mairl-" due to tradition or to insufficient experience with different rases in
different degrees of advancement. v.Tiatever the cause of racial prejudice, I an sure
that the interests of your group and of similar groups Trill be best served if you
can avoid the rousing of your ovm hatred by such evidences of intolerance as may
come to your attention.

(2) Personal denunciations of a man in public office whose opinions arc not
favorable to your interests will not in the long run advance your cause. In the four
years that I have served on the School ^oard with Hr. C. L. Zeigler, I have al-,vays
found him a very generous and fair minded man. I am quite convinced that in this
matter he is as nuch corcerned as I am with what he believes to be your best interest.
His fear is that your group is simply belnr; ugH tn f 1 T-t n=r +"T

the Appoiptnsnt. ,nf R. non-Caucasian_t.O .iur__t

would just r.arl: another p^yc-n&gt;&lt; foi- +-he so-caJLled radicals.. Of course I do not agree
with l.Ir. Zeigler at all in this matter but his entirely honest opinion deserves my
respectful consideration,- and yours.

(o) A rood deal has been said about your group being a pressure group. I regret
that delayed action on the part of the School Board and administration may have warrant
the development of some pressure on your part, but I hope for your ovm sake that it v.-il
not be increased or even continued until the Board has had opportunity to act. A_3an-
jjr rnih H f off -ic.? is subject, tn a g^pa- 1 - r-a-ry li-ht.lo -; rritatinr\s a,T]d the use of such word
as "d-par.G_" and "irsist" are very likely to antagonize him.

I offer these suggestions orly in the hope that they may be helpful in the
solution of a difficult and delicate problem that is of the most grave concern, not onl;
to those of your race but to every American.

Yours truly,

".Valter T. Steilberg

Ill

Chall: The Negroes were.

Albrier: And some of the whites. We had some whites who were coming into
the Bay Area the same as we had not long ago. You know, the
university, when we had the riots, when there was so much agitation
among the students.

Chall: They were deliberately then, you think, fomenting the problems?
Albrier: Yes. Yes. That s why we had to work and be very careful.

Chall: By the time you d had your several meetings, though, it would
seem that Mr. Ziegler would have understood that this was a
moderate group of blacks who were simply asking to have teachers
hired and that you were not part of that radical group. But he
was still willing to use that as an excuse for not hiring blacks?

Albrier: He or Mr. Steilberg did not want the radical bunch to come in and
take over the educational system in Berkeley. They thought they
might use this issue to do so. They didn t know how strong we
were to force them back. We organized and would not let them in
our meetings. Our meetings were open to our own membership
and we would not let them in our meetings or control our meetings.
That s how we had such a peaceful kind of meeting. Afterwards,
the radicals came in and took over a lot of the sentiment of the
community.

Chall: It s obvious that blacks were wanting to be hired and it wouldn t
be hard to make that an issue.

Albrier: But that issue prevailed and that s why it took us five years to
get the first black teacher.

Chall: It took that long?

Albrier: Yes. Five years from that time that we met with the board of
education and they handed down that decision.

Chall: It took five years to do that?

Albrier: It took five years. We kept after that for five years. Every

year, the members of the East Bay Women s Welfare Club would say,
"Have you heard from Dr. Dickson?" (who was the superintendent
of schools) "on the teacher, the black teacher in Berkeley
schools? We don t want to drop it. We want to keep after it."
Every year, Dr. Dickson would tell me that he was working on it.
I found out that there were some blacks in the community who
opposed black teachers.

112

Chall: I was going to ask you about that. There was opposition?

Albrier: Yes. They felt that they were not qualified and they hadn t trained
them enough to be qualified along with the whites. They preferred,
instead of having black teachers in the schools, they preferred
having black schools with black teachers. That was that type of
element that had come from the South, who had been used to
that and would like to see that out here.

Chall: They really believed in the segregated schools?

Albrier: They would hire their own teachers. Then Dr. Dickson had to contend
with the whites who did not want black teachers in the schools.
So it took him quite a while to iron that out and to gradually do
it and to educate the people.

[end tape 4, side 1; begin tape 4, side 2]

Chall: Dr. Dickson, as a result of all this controversy, was really in the
middle of it, wasn t he?

Albrier: Yes, he was in the middle of it. He didn t want to create a lot
of confusion. So the third year, he said to me, "We re going
to get that first black teacher, Mrs. Albrier. Just have faith.
If you and your women will just have faith in me. It takes time,
but when we do get her, she ll be permanent and she ll be followed
by other black teachers. Now, I ll have to arrange a school for
that first black teacher to teach in. I have to arrange the
faculty because if she comes into a hostile faculty, it will be
very hard on her. A great deal of work will have to be put on
that first black teacher. She will come under quite a bit of
pressure, but we want to make it as easy for her as possible."
I said, "All right. We re still waiting patiently."

Then he told me and he told me not to say anything to the
women what school but he told me he was arranging Longfellow
School. I was working very close with Longfellow School at that
time.

113

Success at Last: Ruth Acty is Placed in Longfellow School

Albrier: I belonged to the PTA. I knew the teachers in the school and I
knew the principal. He said, "I f m removing a principal and do
you notice I have another principal in Longfellow School?" I said,
"Yes, I noticed that." He said, "I m removing some teachers and
bringing in some other teachers. That will be the school that
will receive that first teacher."

Later, at the end of the fifth year, he called and said,
"You re going to get your first teacher, black teacher, in the
school Longfellow School." I said, "Who?" He said, "Ruth Acty."
I said, "What classes is she going to teach?" He said, "Kinder
garten." I said, "Why the kindergarten?" He said, "Mrs. Albrier,
little children don t have prejudices. If their first teacher in
kindergarten is a black teacher, you don t have to worry about who
they meet if there s a black teacher in the sixth grade."

Chall: Miss Acty told me she thinks one of the reasons that they put her
into kindergarten was because kindergarten was not a requirement
in the school district at that time. If white parents objected to
having their children in the class with her, they could remove
them.

Albrier: That might have been, also. But he gave me that reason when I
questioned him.

Chall: His reasoning was good, too, from that point of view. That s
fair. Your children attended Longfellow School. What was the
percentage there of black children at the time, that you recall?

Albrier: About fifty percent.

Chall: Now, let me ask you about the five years. Did it take five

years to get Miss Acty into her position from the time that the
school board made its policy?

Albrier: That s right.

Chall: I see. So getting the policy made took you what, a couple of

years, or one year until you got it up the point where they set
up the policy?

Albrier: It took us about seven or eight months,
Chall: I see close to a year of confrontation.

114

Albrier: We had the policy made after I ran for city council.

Chall: They were prepared for that.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Then it took five years .

Albrier: It took five years to get the first teacher.

Chall: The East Bay Women s Welfare Club that was set up almost

specifically to take care of this school issue. Was that one of
your main issues?

Albrier: That was one of the main issues, because most of the members at
that time lived in Berkeley. They owned homes in Berkeley and
their children were going to school in Berkeley.

Chall: After you finally succeeded at the end of five years, did it
disband so that you d go on to some other cause?

Albrier: It disbanded after that.

Chall: I notice from your scrapbook that you often set up, or it seems
to me I have to ask you whether it was true but it seemed to
me that you would set up a specific group to accomplish a specific
purpose. After that purpose had been accomplished, then you would
set up another group. [Laughs]

Albrier: Usually they became disinterested.

Chall: Yes, they were sort of what they now call ad hoc committees.

Albrier: I couldn t get their ear. As issues came about, they would band
together again on that particular issue.

Chall: Whatever it was.
Albrier: At that time, yes.

Chall: Can you tell me about some of the women who were in this? Who was
Amelia Swanigan, who was the treasurer of the club the East Bay
Women s Welfare Club?

Albrier: Amelia Swanigan was Mr. Albrier s half-sister.
Chall: She was the one who was living in East Oakland?

115

Albrier: Yes. Her husband was one of the oldest chefs when he retired

that the Southern Pacific had. He retired with fifty years service.

Chall: Who was Ivah Gray, who was your membership director?

Albrier: Ivah Gray was one of the very active clubwomen in those days.

Chall: She came out of the Colored Women s Federation.

Albrier: Yes, she belonged to that.

Chall: And Estelle Abrams? She was your secretary.

Albrier: Yes, she was very active in club work and church work.

Chall: There were women who, according to your scrapbook, went with you
to interview Dr. Hector. I guess probably to present the problem
to her the first time.

Albrier: Yes. One of the meetings.

Chall: In addition to Ivah Gray, there were Dorothy Brown, Marie Williams,
and Mrs. Brook.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Were they also mothers and active club women?

Albrier: Yes, Marie Williams. She s Wingfield now. And Mrs. Brooks all
of them were women in the community, in the Berkeley community,
who were active in various organizations.

Chall: Did you pick these women because they were articulate and could
explain what it was you were concerned about?

Albrier: They were concerned and interested in community work. They were
interested in the field of civil rights because at that time the
California Negro was fighting for dignity and equality, and trying
to advance the cause of civil rights. People who were interested
in it automatically, at that time, joined organizations that were
fighting on issues.

Chall: What about Electa Beachman? She wrote the letter, you claimed,
asking for the interview. She was spokesman for the committee.

Albrier: She was a businesswoman, a real estate woman.
Chall: Then Fannie Speece?

116

Albrier: Yes. All those are deceased now.

Community Support

Chall: Did the NAACP back you in this at that time?

Albrier: No, we didn t take it to NAACP. We did it on our own.

Chall: Did they support you?

Albrier: It was a Berkeley affair, Berkeley people, Berkeley taxpayers.
Many citizens, black and white, supported us throughout the
Bay Area through their presence at meetings and expressions of
agreeing with us. We knew we had the backing if we needed the
NAACP; almost all the members belonged to NAACP. They took this
as an issue all their own. The NAACP was ready to help us if we
needed them but this issue was a community one.

Chall: At that major meeting on September 20, 1939 that got all the

publicity in the newspaper, there was a woman named Mrs. H. E. New
man from Piedmont Lakeside Study Group, who spoke. How did she get
in there? Was she a black woman?

Albrier: She came out to the meeting. People all over the audience spoke.
Chall: You didn t bring her in?

Albrier: No. We didn t bring her in, but she gave her sentiments as for

the black teachers in tihe schools. Although she lived in Piedmont,
she wanted to know what was she paying all those taxes for on property
she owned. She owned a lot of property in Berkeley and paid quite
an amount of taxes. She expressed the idea she was not paying
taxes on discrimination of teachers.

Chall: You must have been surprised at someone like that coming to you.

Albrier: Yes, we were. They read it in the papers and came to the meeting;
many were clubwomen.

Chall: Then I noticed you had support from E. A. Daly, who was a
publisher

Albrier: The publisher of the California Voice.

Chall: He was the publisher of the Voice. Now, he came on his own, too,
or had you asked for his support?

117

Albrier: No, all of those people came to that open meeting themselves.
Chall: And who was Mrs. M. Wysinger?

Albrier: Mrs. Wysinger then wrote the column, "The Negro in the News," in
the Oakland Tribune at that time.

Chall: I notice your husband also spoke that night. He didn t always

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall :

Albrier:

Chall :

get out and speak that way for causes, I guess,
[Laughs] No.

but he

probably was home that night. Aside from Walter Gordon, who wanted
it to be quiet, and the Southern blacks whom you felt preferred to
have their own schools with their own teachers, were there
prominent blacks in the community like the doctors or other
professionals, who felt the same way as Walter Gordon?

Walter Gordon didn t feel that way. Walter Gordon was afraid.
I think he had the fear that the radicals would come in and control,
but he didn t realize that I knew them quite well, by working with
labor. Seventh Street that was where they were picketing stores,
people having fights, people getting arrested, and having all that
notoriety at that time. I think that s what they wanted to do,
because they got in the limelight that way. He was afraid that they
would come in and use our project. The idea of the black teachers
teaching in the schools, he was always agreed on that. He felt
that maybe we were too impatient and this wasn t quite the time to
do that. After we got along so well, he agreed with us and he
okayed the moves of Dr. Louise Hector and the other moves every
one that they made.

The only major meeting that you had which was sort of like a
confrontation meeting, if you want to call it that the press wanted
to call it that was that one of September 20. But then two weeks
later, you got your policy established. I guess one has to wonder
sometimes, at what point you take it to the public and really get
a feel for let the board feel the confrontation, or the issues.

I would like to say that we had a great deal of help, too, from
the young people in those days. They backed our organization,
our group. My youngsters in the school, the board s youngsters,
all of them who were going to school, were quite a bit of help.
If we wanted to get out leaflets or anything like that, they did
it. I think their help was very essential to us in getting the
policy set.

So it was really a major issue fomenting all over Berkeley at
the time?

118

Albrier: Yes. Because they would talk to some of their teachers in the

schools. Some of their teachers felt they couldn t come out and
agree or disagree, because they were teachers in Berkeley schools.
People were kind of afraid to speak out on things in those days.

It was just the beginning of a revolution, where people were
beginning to feel that they should speak out and be free to speak
out. I think maybe the radical group should be given that kind of
consideration because they helped bring that out among a great
many people who were quiet, who would say that in closed living
rooms but were timid about going into public and lending the public
their voices. A great many of them found their voices in those
days, like the lady who came from Piedmont and said what she did.

The Concern with Takeover by Radicals

Chall: Was it a problem to you to keep your meetings closed and out of
the control of radicals?

Albrier: Yes, it was a problem because I understood why and the officers
of the club understood why, but a lot of the members didn t. I
know one time they had a meeting here, and they invited one of the
radicals to come to this meeting. "Mrs. Albrier and the others
are going to have a meeting about those teachers at her house
Friday night." And they came. We did not say very much or have
much business that night while they were there.

Afterwards, we were informed when they came in; we
would just close the meeting or get on some other issue and not
have our regular meeting in order to keep them out, so they
couldn t organize to take over. Because they would come in and
take over your meeting. We knew very well who they were.

Chall: Those must have been tense days for you. You must have been

planning and plotting almost every day. [Laughter] It s like
warfare, in a sense, without the bullets.

Albrier: I could see what was going on in the neighborhoods. By me being

in the Auxiliary of the dining car employees, I received all kinds
of information from the women. The women had never come out in
the open and expressed themselves. They knew very little about
organization. It was taboo for women to get up and express them
selves. I knew what was going on in our neighborhood. I knew
that these radicals were here and they were taking over the labor
movement. They were inciting animosity between black labor and

119

Albrier: white labor. They were posing as being great friends of the black
man, but behind that, it was their movement that they were
interested in more than the black. They were meeting in the homes
of black women and those homes were being destroyed.

Chall: Did they burn them or

Albrier: No. They would tell them, We are your friends and we don t believe
in discrimination. We believe that if a white woman wants to
have a black man as a friend, she should." They had white women
in their movement who would court the friendship of black men.
They would do anything that would help their movement. We knew
that. We knew what was going on.

That s why we were cautious and we had women who were
stalwarts, who would stand their ground, in order to put over
what we wanted to put over. They tried very hard to take over our
fight for black teachers in the schools, so they could get a lot
of publicity. By us being aware of those things. .Many of the
other people then who were close to them and who d observed them,
warned us. They were not able to take over the women s group.

Chall: That was not only this group, but all of your women s groups, the
Colored Women s Federation and the rest of them, they didn t get
into them?

Albrier: That s right.

"Don t Buy Where You Can t Work." 1940, 1955

Chall: That was an exciting period, to say the least. It s interesting.
So you really did that on your own. Then, can you tell me about
1940, when you began to picket the Sacramento Market in order to
get Mr. King to hire back, or hire any Negro employees. That was
in March 1940.

Albrier: Was that date in the scrapbook?

Chall: Yes.

Albrier: Because I forget.

Chall: You were then the president, according to a letter you had written
you weren t the first president but you were at that time the
president of the Citizens Employment Council, which was set up,
I_ guess, again, just to accomplish one purpose.

120

Albrier: That time, we hadit was during the Depression years a great
deal of unemployment among the black people. It was prevalent
all over. In Chicago, there had been a movement when I was in
the Pullman service and ran to Chicago that put on a campaign.
The movement was sponsored by the Chicago Whip, a weekly news
paper, in 1930. Their slogan was "Don t Buy Where You Can t Work."

Chall: Yes.

Albrier: I was in the Pullman service at that time. The maids quarters

were on the South Side. I wanted to go to Woolworths to get some
manicuring material. As I went into Woolworths, I met this picket.
He had a sign "Don t Buy Where You Can t Work," so I questioned
him. He said that they would not hire any black clerks. Wool-
worths would not hire any black clerks. "We re picketing this
store on the South Side, and we re picketing the main store
downtown. All black people are to stay out." So I said, "Fine,
I ll go." That made quite an impression on me. They kept their
campaign up about two months. The next time that I went to
Chicago and went to Woolworths, I saw three black clerks.

Here, we organized this club, this organization, to get people
to trade with people who were employing Negroes. Again, we made
another survey and we found out all the little stores in black
neighborhoods that were surviving off of black patronage. Mr. King
had come into the neighborhood and had a little, small place
a little meat shop just himself and his wife. He budded out from
that little shop into a larger store; then into a large market,
off the patronage of the black people on Sacramento Street, in the
vicinity.

He first hired two girls, two black girls. Then labor unions-
got in behind him. He got angry with the labor unions and he put
the store on a cooperative basis, that is, a kind of family-basis
ownership. Then he let out all of the employees who weren t in
the family and put in Chinese clerks.

Chall: Mr. King wasn t Chinese, was he?

Albrier: Yes, he was.

Chall: Oh, he was. So he could do that.

Albrier: He told us he did that in order to get by the union, because if he
did that, the union couldn t picket him. They couldn t do anything
about it because it was a family-affair-based store. We didn t
agree with him because his patronage came from the black people
in the community, so we asked him to put those two girls back, and

121

Albrier: he wouldn t. So we decided to picket him. We had an attorney by
the name of Jay Maurice who was the attorney who advised us and
who had had a great deal of work with unions and picketing, and
the law. He advised us that if we were going to picket King, we
should first go to the police department and inform them. Then
we were not to have any fights or loitering on the streets, or
any crowds of people in front of the store, or anything that was
against the law. He gave us all the laws on how we should conduct
the picket.

Chall: Was he a black attorney?

Albrier: Yes. So they said, "They may throw rotten eggs; they may use the
word Nigger. They may use all kinds of words to get you angry,
to start a fight. If you start a fight then you ll have to stop
your picketing because you re disturbing the peace. The police
would have to move in on you." As long as we were having a peace
ful picket, nothing could be done.

A great many of the men wanted to take the picket, but I said
_I_ would take that picket that first time in the morning. They could
say anything they wanted to say and I wouldn t start any fight or
even answer them. So I took the picket the first day, the first
morning of the picket of King s store. It was "Don t Buy Where
You Can t Work."

The black community all understood it. Across the street
was MacMar; it s now Safeway. But the MacMar store was prominent
then. Safeway took over MacMar s store. They had one black clerk,
Miss Tilghman, who worked in there. It threw all the trade
over to MacMar s, away from King s store. Anyway, we picketed
that store three weeks. Finally he found out that the people
were not coming back in and buying from him, even if he did have
turnip greens at five cents a bunch, or pig s tails at three cents
a pound. Nothing attracted them to come in and buy from him. He
put those two girls back to work to please the black community.
He still has the store.

Chall: Is that so?

Albrier: That s right.

Chall: Are there blacks working there now?

Albrier: He s always hired some blacks. We boycotted any number of stores
that we knew had a large percentage of black trade and didn t hire
any blacks. That was one of the civil rights employment
revolutions on employment that was going on all over the country
at that time.

122

Chall: Yes. That was in around 1930 to 1940, during the Depression.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: The Sacramento Street Market, owned by Mr. King, is the one you
have in your scrapbook. There were others, then, you said.

Albrier: There were other stores on Seventh Street where there was a large
population of black people living. Those stores would be
established in the center of this population, and they got all
of their trade from black people.

Chall: Were you successful as you went from one to another?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How was this accepted in the black community? Were there

differences of opinion as to whether you should be out with the
pickets and doing things of this kind, again out in the public
or did they feel you could be doing this by talking quietly behind
the scenes to the managers of the stores?

Albrier: We had quite an organization that was in that movement. We had
the backing of the community.

Chall: You did.

Albrier: We had the backing of all the community. For instance, we had
the backing of NAACP, the ministers, the church groups

Chall: Right from the start.

Albrier: Yes. We always, before we did anything like that, went to all

the groups and told them we were proposing to do that. And if we
did do it, they would know what it was and why we were doing it.
No one got any pay for doing anything in the organization. It
was all given. It was a time of Depression, a time when there
wasn t any money. It was a time when the people were beginning
to wake up and think for themselves, how they were being exploited
and how they were being used in their community, even to their
buying power.

Chall: There wasn t any opposition to this movement?
Albrier: No.

123

Chall: What you told me about Chicago, I just read about, and I know that
that was a successful venture, but when they tried to do the same
thing a few years later in Harlem, there was a great deal of
opposition. *

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I guess it gradually broke down when they discovered they weren t
going to get anywhere by this quiet approach. So I wondered what
might have happened here if there had been similar opposition.

Albrier: They had a lot of fights and bitterness in Harlem, after.

Chall: With the same organizer; I guess they called him Sufi.
[Sufi Abdul Hamid]

Albrier: Yes. That time was the building of organizations like CORE and
all of those organizations.

Chall: So there was unity here.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: But there was apparently some disunity and I wanted to ask you

about that. You mentioned in a letter that you wrote to the city
manager that your organization, Citizens Employment Council, was
organized in September 39. Members were all Negro citizens of
the Bay Area. A. James Payne had been the first president. Then,
you indicated that early in 1940, an organization called Citizens
Committee Jobs for Negroes with the Reverend H.T.S. Johnson, was
organized with similar purposes. Apparently there was some
picketing. Both of you were picketing at the same time, as I
understand it, in front of some of the stores the same stores,
perhaps. I can t tell.

Albrier: Reverend H.T.S. Johnson was pastor of the Taylor Memorial Methodist
Church on Twelfth and Magnolia Streets at that time.

Chall: Is that here in Oakland?

*Francis L. Broderick and August Meier, eds. , Negro Protest Thought
in the Twentieth Century (The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc., 1965),
pp. 109-118.

124

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

In Oakland. He was quite a militant pastor and he was interested
in Oakland. There was quite a bit of picketing on Seventh Street
in Oakland. That s where they were getting into fights and troubles.

Out here, we obeyed strictly the law that our attorney had
given us. Down in Oakland, were some of the Italian stores
Italian grocery stores and all of them where they had asked to
give employment who said they couldn t do it,; there wasn t
enough money, and this and that and the other. Then when they
picketed, they would start fights with the people. They would
call the police to come with patrol wagons; people were arrested.
The radical group wanted that because that gave them a great deal
of publicity. We didn t have that to contend with in Berkeley.
Reverend H.T.S. Johnson did that group in Oakland.

In Oakland, I see.
were doing here.

He was not involved in any way with what you

He agreed with it, yes. He agreed with it and supported us,
because he was the pastor of a church and he had members who lived
in Berkeley. But he wasn t involved.

I see. I didn t understand that from the letter. Well, that s
interesting. You were able to do quite a bit in Berkeley, then.
Were the Berkeley blacks different from the black citizens of
Oakland, or was it the leadership that made them respond
differently to some of these matters?

The blacks who lived in Berkeley were Berkeley had an atmosphere

that you had to be just right in Berkeley. We had a judge,

Judge Young, who, if you were arrested three times for being

drunk, he d just give you five years out of Berkeley before you came

[back.] If your dog barked and you called the police, you had to

stop your dog from barking. If your rooster crowed I remember

a lady had a pet rooster up in the hills. The rooster crowed

and she had to get rid of that rooster, or stop that rooster

from crowing and waking up the neighbors.

Berkeley had a sign over San Pablo as you entered into
Berkeley, "Laws Strictly Enforced." It was a different type of
people who came to Berkeley.

People who broke the laws and liked to drink, liked good
times and a lot of noise, they didn t come to Berkeley to live.
We had a different type of citizen who came to live in Berkeley in
those days. Especially black people. A great many of the black
people that came from the South, they were used to living in
segregated districts where there were a lot of black people.

125

Albrier: Naturally, they stopped in Oakland. Others, who wanted it different,
would find homes in Berkeley. We did not have the good-timey type
of citizen in Berkeley, as they did in Oakland.

Chall: I did find in your Negro hiring that in 1940 you had to write a
special memorandum to women because they were crossing that
picket line. You told them Negro women anybody should know
that they shouldn t be crossing the picket line, that they must
help the race to rise. "A race cannot rise any higher than its
women will allow it. The future of the race lies within its
women." At the bottom of this memorandum, you wrote in pen that
only two women crossed the picket line after getting this little
article. That s something, I guess, that you passed around in the
neighborhood.

Albrier: Oh, yes, I guess so. [Chuckles]

Chall: In 1955 this is about fifteen years later you were working with
an organization called the East Bay Organizations Employment
Committee. Again, the quote, the little phrase that you worked
with was "Buy Where You Can Work" and you had offices in Berkeley
and Oakland at that time. One on 3109 Telegraph Avenue and one
at 1314 Ashby Avenue in Berkeley.

Albrier: I think that was the one where a great many of the ministers were
involved in at that time. There was so much unemployment among
the blacks that we felt we had to have an organization, again, to
make people appreciate the trade of the blacks in these organiz
ations and businesses. If the blacks refused to give them the
business, they would feel it, because a great many of them were
in black neighborhoods. Three fourths of their customers were
black, and they should give some kind of consideration to the black
community which was so desperately in need of employment.

Chall: Do you think this was as effective a campaign in 55, do you
recall, as it was in 40?

Albrier: Yes, it was quite effective, because it was headed by ministers,
and they spearheaded it.

Chall: This was so well organized. It had quite an impressive letterhead,
and the whole community x?as involved. In the other one, in 1940, I
notice from your scrapbook that you had mass meetings quite often
in a club what was it called the Angus Club. That seemed to be
the headquarters where you would hold your meetings. What was the
Angus Club?

125a

East Bay Organizations Employment Committee

"BUY WHERE YOU CAN WORK"

REV. H. SOLOMON HILL
General Chairman

VIOLA TAYLOR
Vic* Chairman

NEITHA WILLIAMS
Secretary

LILLIAN M. POTTS
Treasurer

ACTION COMMITTEE

Attorney Hiawatha Robert!
Albert McKee
Co-Chairmen

BRIEFING COMMITTEE
Estelle Earl
Ozelle Laundry

Co-Chairmen
Wayne Gaskin

Monitor

EDUCATIONAL COMMITTEE
Rev. Edward Stovall
Rev. Roy Nichols

OFFICES:

3109 TELEGRAPH, OAKLAND, CALIF.
HUmboldt 3-5600

13U ASHBY AVENUE, BERKELEY, CALIF.
THornwall 3-4002

Frances Albrier

FINANCE COMMITTEE
Rev. J. L. Richard
Paul Grant

Co-Chairmen
Ruby Ann Bims

Secretary

Joseph W. Freeman
O. Jackmon

Business Contacts
Or. Guy Ginn
Dr. Boliver Moore

Profesional Contacts

RESEARCH
Frank Clark
Flip Benson
Co-Chairmen

SOME AFFILIATING
ORGANIZATIONS

Acacia Lodge, No. 7
F. & A. M.

Baptist Ministers Union

California State Association
of Colored Women
(Northern Section)

Civil Liberties Department
I. B. P. O. E. of W.

COSMOTOLOGYST GROUP
East Bay Council of Clubs

Federation of Negro
Women s Clubs

Interdenominational
Ministers Alliance

Little Citizens Study and
Welfare Club

Men of Tomorrow

N. A. A. C. P.

Oakland and
Alameda Branches

Northern California
Funeral Directors

Northern California
Physicians
Dental and
Pharmaceutical Association

Real Estate Broken

West Gat* Lodge, No. 36
F. & A. M.

SPEND YOUR MONEY WHERE YOU CAN WORK !!

Do the stores you re spending money in TODAY hire Negroes?
If they do hire Negroes, are they employed at ALL job levels?
Or do they employ Negroes in the LOWEST paying jobs only?

Show this card to your salesman or merchant and tell him
YOU WILL SPEND YOUR MONEY WHERE YOU CAN WORK 1 1

COOPERATE FOR MORE JOBS

East Bay Organizations Employment Committee

Composed of: Ministers, Civic Leaders, Fraternal Groups & the NAACP

Rev. H. SOLOMON HILL

Chairman

NEITHA WRUAMS Rev. EDW. STOVALL

Secretary Chairman, Educational Committee

1314 Ashby Avenue, Berkeley Mrs. Frances Albrier

THornwall 3-4002 &lt;*g^.i97 THornwall 5-4772

Letterhead and card indicating activity
of the employment committee.

126

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:
Chall :

Albrier:
Chall :
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :

The Angus CLub was a club of men kind of a social club of men.
It had a little hall, a little building. Clubs and organizations
would meet in that building.

Black mostly.
Yes.

How were these meetings attended? You called them mass meetings
and I assume you wanted everyone to come. Were they well attended?

They were quite well attended, yes.

People were really stirred up over this issue, then?

Yes. Those who heard about it felt, "Well, there s something going
on and I ll go see what it is."

How d you get those leaflets around?
you at that time?

Were the young people helping

I must say that s why I have always worked with the youth and
discussed things with them, and let them know what things are
about. I was very active in the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts.
At that time, they did not take black boys and girls in the scout
movement. We had our own scouts. Those youngsters always helped
us in getting leaflets out. In fact, they would call and ask if
we had any leaflets to give out. They would do it.

They earned their citizenship badges.
Yes.

That s very good. So you had the community working all elements
of it, I guess if they cared to.

Yes.

How could you afford, in 55, to keep two offices open: one in
Berkeley and one in Oakland? Was there somebody who operated the
telephone, or did you have to pay ?

Which one of those offices was that?

Well, let s see. There was one at 3109 Telegraph that was the
Oakland office and at 1314 Ashby they might have been churches,
for all I know.

127

Chall: This was 1955, the East Bay Organizations Employment Committee.

Albrier: Oh, that s the one that was a church.

Chall: Those were probably churches, then?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: It was organized at the A.M.E. that s African Methodist Episcopal
Church

Albrier: That s right, yes.

Chall: Thirty-Seventh and Telegraph.

Albrier: Yes. You see, that organization was composed of the Ministerial
Alliance. Anytime we wanted to have a meeting in any of the
church buildings, they were open to us.

Chall: Were there problems in those days in keeping the radicals out?
Or was this a different time?

Albrier: No, it was different times. If they were extremely radical, we
didn t know it. They fell in line with us.

That was encouraging black people to go into business also
and employ their own people.

World War II: Breaking the Racial Barriers

The Red Cross: Auto Mechanics for Women Drivers

Chall: The first thing you did, apparently, after we went to war 1942
was to complete a course for auto mechanics for women drivers.
Eight lessons at the Berkeley Evening Trade School. Then you went
on to do the welding classes. What did you have in mind when
you went into this?

Albrier: That has to do with the Red Cross, that time in the war. The Red
Cross, at that time, did not take in any black women into their
motor corps, to drive in the motor corps. I think you will see a
certificate that I received from them.

Chall :

Yes.

128

Albrier: I decided then to break down that discrimination because we were
going into war, and so many of our young black people men were
going into war. Of course, we had President Roosevelt and the
others, fostering the war. We were fighting for these different
things we were supposed to be fighting for, social equality and all
of that. At the beginning of the war, there were some people who
went to the Red Cross black people who wanted to give their
blood. They said that they didn t take black peoples blood.

I made up my mind that I was going to break through this
Red Cross issue, because I knew they would need women drivers.
So I took this course. That was one of the requirements that you
take this course because the men would be in other fields and you
should know something about a car when it broke down. The little
things about the car whether it was the battery or the cable, or
any of those things. To change a tire, you must know how to do
that. Because women had to take these things and learn how to do
it. I decided to take that course. After I decided to take that
course, I applied to go into the Red Cross motor corps, for which
I was accepted. But they never called. Even to the uniform.
I was given a certificate for getting the uniform. The war started
on and it kept on. Since we re in the war business, I guess I
should tell about the camp. The soldiers. It s in the scrapbook.

Chall: Is that the DeFremery USD?
Albrier: Yes.*

Integrating Women Welders in the Kaiser Shipyards, 1942-1943

[Interview 5: January 12, 1978]
[begin tape 5, side 1]

Chall: Now, let s see. What we left off with last month was^ this general
topic of your working on behalf of black employment /opportunities.
We were just about to start with getting women into 7 shipyards.
What I picked up from your scrapbook was that in/August, September,
of 1942, you entered Central Trade School, I gu/ss it was, in
Oakland, and took classes from eleven is that right 11:00 p.m.
to 4:00 a.m.?

*See Chapter VI.

128a
Albany Times, Wednesday, April 20, 1977

Here s what happened
to Rosie the Riveter

By WOODY JOHANNES

I-G Staff Writer
* ALBANY - There were
thousands o! "Rosie the
Riveters" during the hectic
days of World War II -
women who manned
America s assembly lines,
tackled factory work and,
frequently, filled key jobs in
heavy construction. This
all- volunteer corps fur
nished replacements for
men going into military ser
vice.

Their accomplishments
are legendary. Working.
eight, 10 and 12 hour shifts,
the Rosies maintained (ana
in some cases increased)
production of military and
civilian supplies. While
Churchill was promising no
thing but blood, sweat and
tears, Rosie was delivering
the tools, fuels and weapons
of war in a steady stream
a flow that became a major
factor in stemming the ad-

vance of Hitler and
Hirohito. 1

A song of the era, "Rosie
the Riveter," gave the gal
lant crews their name, and
the "men s work" they did
gave them international
fame. But several wars and

. three decades later the
memories of their contribu
tions have faded. *
Now a pair of film produc
ers Connie Field and Lor
raine Kahn, are launching
plans which they hope wifl
revive and perpetuate those

. memories and give Rosie
her rightful place in history.
The two East Coast
women have spent a year
researching the Rosie
phenomenon as a prelimi
nary step in filming "The
Life and Times of Rosie the
Riveter." Most of their re
search has been concen
trated in New York, Detroit
and Los Angeles and most
recently in the Bay Area.

Their principal question:
"What ever happened to
Rosie?," has been answered
by some 400 women. Over a
hundred of the old crew
have been discovered in this
area, and at least one still
resides in Albany.

Irene Rosenberg Petrel,
now living at 1320 Marine
Ave., was a student at UC
when Pearl Harbor was at
tacked. She promptly
applied for, and got, a job at
the Mare Island shipyards
where her father and sister
also were employed. She
was signed on as an electri
cian s helper second class
the first woman in the ship
yard s electrician s de
partment.

After WW H was properly
disposed of, Irene com
pleted her education and
then went to work for the
Shell Development Co. (re
search division of Shell Pet
roleum), and worked there
as a draftsman for 16 years.

Apparently she still ex
periences some nostalgia.
"The war period was the
only time I can remember in
which the U.S. had full
employment and women
could almost choose what
kind of work they went
into," she recalled recently.

Clovis Walker, who has
made her home in
Richmond for the past 35
years, came from Arkansas
to get a war job. Kaiser
Shipyards gave her just
three-days of training as a
welder, and put her to work
on shell-welding.

"Proportionately it was
the most money I ve ever
made," she said yesterday.
After the war she enrolled in
a beauticians college and,
upon completion of the
course, went to work in a
Richmond beauty salon. She
retired recently.

Before the war, Francis
Albier of Berkeley worked
in a book bindery on a WPA
project. After hostilities got
under way she entered a
welders school in Oakland,
attending classes from 11
p.m. to 4 a.m. to learn the
trade. The instruction Qual
ified her for a Kaiser ship
yards job and, after six
months of work, she was
given journeyman rank.
Mrs. Albier now lives at 1621

Connie Watkins Billings the war, and transferred to
principal business experi- defense jobs because of the
ence, prior to the war, was higher pay, We want to
working in a service station create a film which reflects
and restaurant operated by this reality. So we re asking
her family. She left the Bay the former Rosies, who are
Area in 1942 to take a job in willing to be interviewed, to
Lockheed s Los Angeles call us, collect, at 415/843-
plant. 8552."

"So many women were Ms. Kahn added: "We

being hired that I thought: want to recapture the im-

Why don t I try asking for a portant work these women

job on the swing shift?. I performed, the fights

tilled out an application and against racism and sexism

they put me to work as a waged on the home front

. riveter and later promoted during the war, the pride

me to template- and layout and dignity that women and

wor fc - minorities felt during these

: "But the day the wartimes. We intend to show

ended I was laid off," she how this period changed

lamented. Mrs. "Billings re- their lives forever, and how

turned to the Bay Area and their work was vital in

now is living at 118 Sun- changing the course of his-

nyside Ave. in Piedmont. torv -

Dot Mahoney made radar &lt;xhe Life and Times of
tubes during the war, using Rosie t h e Riveter will be an
lathes and open flames. She hour-long documentary
was the first woman to work f^gd by foundation grants
at Heinz and Kaufman, and pr ivate individuals. We
making vacuum transmit- expect to complete the pro-
ting tubes for radio stations. ^ wit hin another year for
*But I was laid off with network television and for

the rest of the women work-
ers hired fop the war effort
when VJ day came. Since
that time I ve worked in a
hospital, for a telephone
company, and for an
answering.service. And I ve
raised six children."

Mrs. Mahoney s most re
cent job was as a switch
board operator. She is living
at 4132 Joan Ave. in Con
cord, and currently is un
employed and seeking
work.

These Rosies apparently
are typical of the World War
II contingent that fought on
the home front, according to
researchers Field and
Kahn. Their lives "are typi
cal of Rosie tell what re
ally happened to Rosie the
Riveter/

"Common myth has it
.that women took defense
jobs for patriotic reasons
only," Ms. Field said. "We
are finding that most
women worked before the
war, needed to work during

screening before unions,
churches, women s groups,
community organizations,
schools and colleges."

Meanwhile, Rosie the
Riveter still is very much
with us.

129

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: To learn to be a welder, and that you qualified, after two months
of classes.

Albrier: Did you get that was sponsored by the government through Merritt
College? I think that s in the scrapbook, so you can check
that

Chall: I probably just missed some of the facts. This class at Merritt,
then, was sponsored by the government?

Albrier: Yes, it was.

Chall: Specifically to train

Albrier: Sponsored by the government, specifically to train welders not
specifically women, but anyone who liked to be welders. They
didn t get any stipends at that time. It was the beginning of the
war before Kaiser shipyards was finished and completed.

Chall: In Richmond. [California]

Albrier: In Richmond.

Chall: Were there men in your class, those hours, as well as women?

Albrier: Yes. Those hours were specifically made for women who had homes
and were busy with families. They were home in the daytime.
They were able to run their homes, take care of their homes and
families , and take this course .

Chall: How many of you in the course were black women and men? Do you
recall? Were you a real minority among them?

ALbrier: No, it was a mixture of black and white together, men and women.
That course was more women.

Chall: More women.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Black women?

Albrier: Yes, other black women women of all nationalities.

Chall: Did you take anybody in there with you any of your friends?

130

Albrier: Yes, one of my friends who encouraged and begged me to go and take
the course because she was taking the course, Mae Bondurant.
She was Dr. Bondurant s wife.

Chall: Was it a deliberate design of hers and yours that you were not
only were you going to be welders, but that you were going to
break the color line?

Albrier: No. We had no idea of breaking the color line; we just felt that
we would like this as a new field for women, and we would like to
be welders. We had read that the government was going to have
to use welders, use everybody, in building ships. Kaiser began
to talk about the ships, Victory Ships. There were so many
Victory Ships to be built on the West Coast. They would need all
of these crafts in building these ships to win the war. So a
great many women in organizations felt that their sons were
leaving husbands were leaving, going to war, and being drafted
that they should be doing something back home. That was the
general idea throughout the nation at that time.

Chall: I just wondered what might have prompted you because I know that
after you finished your course, I saw a letter that you wrote
to the California Voice. [September 25, 1942] You were discuss
ing your attempts at being hired as a welder because the union
wouldn t take you in. You said that they and you were referring
to Negro women [reading from scrapbook] "... are working,
praying and I hope will fight to see that those who are fortunate
enough to have their brothers, sons and husbands return home,
can enjoy a little democracy for which they fought. Our aim is
a double aim, a double V." By that, I thought you were meaning
victory

Albrier: Victory, yes.

Chall: Victory in war, and victory for was it black women, or all
women?

Albrier: It was victory for black women and the democratic procedure.

[Interview interrupted by phone call,
some reconstruction of the dialogue]

Ensuing static required

Chall: How did you learn to weld to be ready to work in the shipyards?

Albrier: They required sixty hours of training, but I put in twice that

number of hours. I took 120 hours in training so that I could be
very well prepared. I felt that I had to be better because I

131

Albrier: was a black woman. I wanted to do the work perfectly to make a
perfect bead. I had to be better to hold a job, otherwise I
couldn t compete with the white women.

I had a friend who lived in Oakland and who finished her
sixty hours. She went to Moore s shipyards and was working months
before I was.

My instructor wanted to know why I was still coming to school.
He said, "You know how to weld; you don t need to be in class
anymore." I explained to him how hard it was for a black person
to get a job in industry or in the unions, and that in order for
me to compete I had to know the work perfectly and that s why I
had to keep coming to class to be perfect.

Chall: What was his response?

Albrier: The response was, "Well, I can t teach you any more. It s time
for you to go into the shipyards." He said, "I think you can
make it because you re well trained." He suggested that I go and
apply at Kaiser shipyards because he said that was the best
shipyard for women. It wasn t cluttered up with a lot of beams
and things in the walkways which you had to walk over and drag
your welding hose over, like Moore s shipyards. Kaiser shipyards
was being built and they were a cleaner and better shipyard.
He thought women should go there. He advised me to go and apply
at Kaiser. He said, "I know you ll pass the test because you
know it."

Chall: This was the time when women were going to work in industry?

Albrier: Yes, yes. This was the end of the Depression when we went into

war against Germany and Japan. The shipyards were advertising for
workers and everybody was locking for employment . Nobody had any
money. People had lost their jobs. My husband was lucky. He
had been kept on his job with the Southern Pacific. They decreased
his pay but he was still employed. But millions had no jobs and
they were on welfare. That was one reason, too, why so many
women went into training as welders and burners and different
fields of labor in the shipyards.

Chall: When you applied at Kaiser, were you hired?

Albrier: After my instructor advised me to go to Kaiser, I went to Kaiser.
But first I went to Moore s shipyard because I knew they were
hiring black welders there. They already had an auxiliary union
and there was no problem about hiring. I took the test and
passed it.

132

Albrier: Then I went to Kaiser shipyard number two because my instructor
had advised me to try there. I took the test and passed it with
flying colors. This happened to be on Saturday morning. There
were about seven or eight of us who hadn t filled out the papers
and hadn t been assigned to anything. The young man who was
registering us said to come back on Monday morning because it
was twelve o clock noon and the unions were closed at twelve.

Albrier: Then he called to me and gave me his name and told me to call him
on Monday before I came back. I knew

Chall: Were you the only black person?

Albrier: I was the only black person in that crowd at that time. So I

said, "All right", but I knew very well why he wanted me to call.
So Monday I did. I called him before I went to the shipyards.
I said, "Why is it you specifically wanted me to call you? Was it
because you know the union won t take Negroes as welders?" Yes,
he said that was the reason, and he asked why I didn t go to
Moore s where I could work.

There was a Boilermakers, Iron, Shipbuilders and Helpers
Union there but they had not yet set up an auxiliary to take in
Negroes at Kaiser. In these AFL craft unions Negroes could
become members only of an auxiliary.

I went anyway and I stood in line behind the other women
who had passed the test and I heard the clerk ask them routine
questions, and I watched them fill out their cards. When it was
my turn, I got to the window; I gave my card. The young lady
said, "There s been no arrangement made to accept you into
the union so you can be employed."

There were several service men standing in the hall and one
asked me what was said to me. I told him my story. There were
two white and two blacks. They stated out loud so all of the
personnel and others could hear, "Is that the democracy we are
being drafted to fight for? The first thing we should do is to
tear up this hall." I learned later that they were university
students. However, I thanked them for their sympathy and told
them I was not giving up the fight although civil rights and
democracy were evasive sometimes.

I then decided that I must talk to the chairman of Kaiser
shipyards and challenge him about the employment of Negroes,
both Negro men and women, as burners and welders. I went to
shipyard four where the offices were located. There I met the
receptionist at the desk. I requested to see the chairman or

133

Albrier: director of Kaiser shipyards because they are discriminating;
they are not hiring Negro women or men as burners and welders;
that I had completed my training of one hundred and twenty hours
as a welder, passed the test in Moore s and this shipyard; I
preferred to work in these shipyards as was suggested by my
welding instructor.

[Machine static stopped at this point.]

Albrier: "If there s discrimination in hiring at this shipyard, I want to
know it from the chairman or president, because that s against
the government s rules, and I know it. The government is calling
for all citizens who are citizens of the United States and want
to see this country still exist and not be beaten, to take up
these crafts so we can build these Victory Ships and send our
men over. I mean to win that war. I m one of those persons who
wants the United States to win the war ! "

She said, "Well, I ll call him." She called him and told
him what I said. He said, "Tell Mrs. Albrier to wait and I ll
talk to her. I m busy." So I waited about a half hour. Then he
called back and said, "You re wrong, Mrs. Albrier, Kaiser ship
yards don t discriminate against any citizen, but we have that
contract in those crafts that you have to be certified by the
union because the union has those crafts sewed up. They are the
ones, not Kaiser." I said, "Well, Kaiser should have something
more to do with it. Maybe I should sue Kaiser." [Chuckles]

Chall: You were pretty spunky. [Laughs]

Albrier: Ke said, "You go over and talk to our public relations man in
shipyard number three. I ll call him and tell him that you re
coming, and see if something can t be worked out." But I m sure
when he called him he told him what to do with me to okay me.
I went over and saw the public relations man and he said, "You re
Mrs. Albrier?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Well, that s all right.
We ve taken care of you." He signed the card and said, "Go back
to the union hall to window seven and give them this card. Ask
for the director of the union. "

Chall: He went over the head of the union?

Albrier: I went to the union hall and got in line again and met the same

clerk. She said, "Didn t I tell you that we couldn t do anything
in signing you?" I said, "I know, but I have an appointment to
see this man [I forget the name of the director of the union] "
She said, "He s out but he s over in room number two. Just sit

134

Albrier: there. When he comes In, you give that to him." I gave it to
him. He okayed it and said, "Go back to window number seven."

I went back to window number seven and she asked me the
regular routine questions about my family and who to call if you
become ill or if there s an accident; your age and all of that
that they have to put on the card. I saw the other women in line
when I was in line before had twenty dollars, so I felt that I
was joining the union. I took out twenty dollars and put it
there. She said, "You won t need to pay anything today." So I
said, "All right." She okayed it and said, "Now take this over
to the shipyard. They will tell you what time to come to work.
They will assign you to where you are to work as a welder." So
I took the card over to the shipyard and gave it to the clerk
there. They told me to come to work. I chose to go to work from
three to nine. That s how I got on in the shipyard Kaiser
shipyard. There were only two black women, but I was the only
one who really looked black because the other woman was very
fair.

Chall: So she passed without anybody noticing?

Albrier: Yes. When I walked in the shipyard with the welding leather
clothing on you have to wear all leather coat, pants as a
welder, the shipyard hat the shipwrights, the black shipwrights,
stopped and said, "How did you get in here? How did you make it
in here, because they are not hiring any black welders out here. "
I said, "Well, I just happened to bust my way in here. I sent a
wire to President Roosevelt to tell him that they were not
hiring any black welders in these shipyards." They said, "More
power to you! Glad to see you."

That was my experience in getting on in the shipyard, but
it didn t finish my experience. I worked in the shipyard six
months. In six months time, my work was qualified and they
promoted me to a journeyman welder. A notice was put in my box,
when I went to check out, telling me that when I returned to work
to go to the office. When I returned to work, I went to the
office; got in line behind others. In my turn, I got to the desk
and said, "I understand I ve been promoted to journeyman." The
young lady said, "You have. We want to sign you up as a journey
man. Now, you ll make more money." I said, "Is that as far as
I can go in promotion?" She said, "You re a journeyman that s
as far as you can go. That means that you have accomplished and
learned the work well and that you are master in your craft.
Where is your union card?"

135

Albrier: I said, "I don t have any union card." She asked rae three times
for my union card. The third time she said, "I can t make up
this data on this sheet without your union card." I said, "I
don t have any." She said, "Don t stand there and tell me that
you have worked six months and you re a journeyman without a
union card?!" I said yes, so she flew back into the back office
and seemed to become very aggravated with me; angry with me, as
if she thought I was standing there kidding her. She had never
had that experience. All the people she had registered everyone
of them had a union card and had come through the Boilermakers
Union.

Finally another, older clerk came out, an older clerk, and
she said, "I want to make apologies for that young lady. She
didn t understand, Mrs. Albrier. She didn t know that you
could work up to be a journeyman and not have a union card. Let s
fill out your papers." She said, "I ll fill out your papers."
Two months later, I received a letter in my box when I went to
work. It said, "Dear Mrs. Albrier, arrangements have been made
for your participation in the Union 513 Boilermakers Union as a
welder. Please come over [on a certain date I forget the date]
and be initiated into Union 513 Boilermakers Union." That meant
that I had worked about seven months without paying any dues in
the shipyard. Later I learned that they had established then an
auxiliary for black workers on welding and burning, and an office
for them to pay their monthly dues. It was over on another
street. All the black workers were to go over there and pay
their dues. But I was so angry about it, I wouldn t do it.
I told them I wasn t going over there and pay the dues. It was
out of my way and I had gotten used to coming to this address,
and I would pay my dues at this address. And I did. They
accepted it. I know they sent the dues on over to the auxiliary.

It was about nine, ten months later. Kaiser was in a rush
for more Victory Ships. They were turning out those ships as
fast as they could, working night and day. They were sending
calls all over the country for people to come to California and
work in Kaiser shipyards, building Victory Ships.

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136

Fighting Discrimination in the Department of Employment

Albrier: They called, and the fever of earning money and more money than
people had ever thought of being able to earn, was prevailing
throughout the country. They opened up the high schools to teach
welding and burning. Berkeley High School was one of them. They
had a building where they taught welding. You d go and sign up
citizens and young people would go and sign up to learn how to
weld and to burn.

In the meantime, any number of younger black women had done
this and had passed the course in the high schools. They were
instructed to go to the employment office first, and the employ
ment office was to send them to the unions to sign up. That was
done because the government was taking a part in the number of
people who were signed up in welding and burning and who had taken
these courses. I think they wanted to keep a record. It was done
through the educational systems high schools, trade schools, and
those schools that taught those crafts.

There were about eight young women who lived in Berkeley
and Oakland who had passed this training and had gone out to the
employment office. They told them they were sending them they
were recommending them to go to Moore s shipyards. It got out
that Mrs. Albrier was working as a welder in Kaiser shipyards.
"How come Mrs. Albrier got on? How had she got on? We would like
to work at Kaiser s because we live in Berkeley, nearer. We
won t have to go all the way to Oakland to the shipyards." So
they called me and questioned.

I asked them the procedure they had gone through. They said
they were told to go to the employment office. They had gone to
the employment office in Richmond. I asked them what they had
said to them. They said that the officer in the employment
office had told them of the discrimination of the union that
blacks were being hired in Oakland because they had an auxiliary
and they hadn t set up an auxiliary at that time in Richmond.
So, the union wasn t allowing blacks to come in as burners and
welders. They said, "Well, we know one black person who s
working as a welder." They didn t say any more; they came and
got me.

I went out to the employment office with another lady,
Mrs. Lillian Dixon, who was then the legislative chairman of
the California State Association of Colored Women s Clubs.

137

Albrier: We went to the office and talked to a young man who had inter
viewed these young women and advised them not to go to Local 513
to be employed as welders, but to go to Moore s. I reminded him
that he had broken the law. The government was crying and appeal
ing for people to learn these crafts so they could build these
ships. I told him my experience with the employment department
was that in their guideline book, it stated that where an
employer was discriminatory and might use discrimination in
hiring different people, to inform that person of the attitude of
the employer before sending him out to that possibly discriminatory
employer.

[end tape 5, side 1; begin tape 5, side 2]

Chall: You were explaining to the employment department that they weren t
supposed to be discriminating, that if an employer were
discriminating

Albrier: to inform the job seeker of their attitude before they sent
the person to them.

Chall: Yes, but let them go, anyway.

Albrier: Yes, because the person seeking the position or job might be able
to explain to them, or prevail upon them, to give them a chance.
Let them try. If they did not prove out, to let them go, but to
give them a chance. Some employers would.

Chall: That s the way- you did it.

Albrier: This employment office agent well, he wasn t an agent, but

director was misinformed, or else he was working with the union
and not sending blacks over there as welders. So, Mrs. Dixon
and I told him that we would go to the state employment office
and have this settled. He asked us not to go to the state; he
would do it. Then we said, "You are protecting this union. You
should have sent these girls over and let them tell them they
were not hiring them and send a requisition of that back to
Washington." He said that he would do that and he would send a
requisition on what happened to these young women back to
Washington.

138

A. Philip Randolph and Executive Order 8802

Albrier: In the meantime, A. Philip Randolph came on the scene about

blacks throughout the nation in the shipyards not being employed.
That they were standing outside the fences, looking in, wanting
to be employed. But because they were black, they were
discriminated against in the higher crafts. Now, when I went to
Kaiser s, if 1 had wanted to be a laborer if I wanted to sweep
the yards and pick up bolts, and things like that, they employed
every person they could. But they could not employ me as a
welder. Randolph then contacted President Roosevelt and told him
of these thousands of black people, citizens, standing outside
the shipyards, wanting employment and wanting to work, who
couldn t work because they were black and because of the
discrimination in these different crafts. He said that he was
going to start a march on Washington and let the world know that
we were fighting for democracy, but we weren t extending
democracy to its own citizens.

President Roosevelt said, "You can t do that. We re at
war." These are Mr. Randolph s words, in his report to the
NAACP. He reported his interview with the president about
that. He said, "We re at war, Mr. Randolph, you can t do that.
I ll give an executive order against that." Mr. Randolph said,
"Well, you give an executive order and go on the air so
everybody will know and hear you." And the president did just
that. That was Executive Order 8802, one of the most famous
executive orders against discrimination, and, I think, one of
the first ones made by a president.

Chall: It was after that, after the issuance of that executive order,
that the auxiliary in Local 513 was formed?

Albrier: Was formed, yes.

Chall: It took that to form it?

Albrier: Yes, to break down these different crafts in the union.

Chall: I understand, from the oral history of Mr. C.L. Dellums that we
took several years ago, that he and a man named Clarence
Johnson this was prior to Pearl Harbor, but we were still
gearing up for war had gotten men into Kaiser shipyards in
Richmond. Apparently, it took them several days of constant
negotiations. Dellums said that he, too, was ready to call
Washington at that point, but the shipyards finally conceded.
They took just two men into that union. Two years later,

139

Chall: Dellums says, there were ten thousand Negroes in the yards, and
that Lena Home came out and launched the George Washington
Carver Victory Ship.

Albrier: Yes, after that, many welders and burners were admitted to the

Kaiser shipyards. Moore s, remember, Moore s took them in before
the breakdown. Kaiser, after the government gave the call
throughout the nation, and people were coming out here from all
of the states- black people from all of the states were coming
out here to work and to earn this money. It put them on their
feet economically after the trials of a depression. There were
so many of them, there were hardly housing places for them to
stay.

Chall: That must have caused a real problem.

Albrier: They were staying in garages, anyplace they could find. They
were sending out the call for people with homes who had extra
rooms to share with these workers who were in the shipyards,
building the Victory Ships. The government needed them so
badly at that time.

Chall: Even with it all, they were not ready to hire blacks, except
with pressure.

Albrier: The pressure, when they came, pressure had been put on and they
had begun to open because letters, telegrams and calls had gone
back to Washington on that. Firms like Kaiser had themselves
put pressure on. Here are these people, and they needed them to
build these ships, and they had contracts with the government to
turn out so many ships, and they couldn t do it without the
people. They were training welders and encouraging people to
take welding and burning so they would learn to build these ships
so they could get them out

Standing Up to Prejudice

Chall: When you tell me now how the conversations went between you and
the clerks, and the Kaiser people and the union people, you do
it with great ease, without any show of emotion too much. But
how did you feel about it at the time that you were doing it?
Were you as calm and able to be as rational in your approach
as you are now? Or did it upset you at that time?

140

Chall: You were on the front line and you weren t going to take any of
this discrimination. But you were out there all by yourself.
How did you react to this and how did you come home and tell
your husband and children about it?

Albrier: I never had any reaction because I was reared that I had to

fight for my own rights. Not only mine. When I was fighting
for my rights, I was fighting for my people s rights. I was
fighting for my family s rights. They were in the same
predicament they happened to be black. It was just automatic
for me to stand up and tell a person, "You re wrong. You re
mistreating me. You re discriminatory. Why don t you give us
a chance?"

Chall: So you always just were able to do it?

Albrier: Yes. My grandmother reared me that way. I learned that in
school. That s why I took the hundred and twenty hours.

Chall: You were preparing.

Albrier: I must be prepared. I had to be. I had to make double
percentage of what the whites did in order to get the
recognition of being prepared. I had to know that much more.
One hundred and twenty five percent to get one hundred and
fifteen percent grading. If I cleaned a house I had to clean it
spotless to get recognition.

Chall: Then you were also astute enough to bring Mrs. Dixon in the next
time around.

Albrier: Yes. I became very much interested in women s programs and

women s organizations. I knew about this organization from a
child up because my grandmother belonged to the Mothers Club,
which was started by Mrs. Booker T. Washington in Tuskegee.
I used to go to this club with my grandmother. They were
interested in students, in paving the way for black students,
fighting discrimination in employment, discrimination in any
form, building up the communities from an educational standpoint;
building the people up through their church and their clubs.

Mrs. Washington was one of the national presidents of these
women s clubs that sprang up after the Civil War to educate
black women, as many only knew how to work on the farms and pick
cotton. I used to go to the meetings with my grandmother, so I
automically came up in this type of club work. When I came
West, they had the Federation of Colored Women s Clubs which
started in 1906, and I immediately joined. I think I started the
Department of Women in Industry.

141

Chall: Yes, you did.
Albrier: At that time.
Chall: Yes, you did, at the same time.

Albrier: Mrs. Dixon was the legislative chairman, the state legislative

chairman at that time. That s why I called on her to go with me
to protest to the employment office on discrimination in not send
ing these girls to Kaiser shipyards.

Chall: So you were all pretty well grounded in the laws

Albrier: We had had any number of problems of discrimination in employment,
and in state employment. We knew the laws; we knew the guidelines.
The NAACP was the watchdog in having guidelines that would help
against discrimination in employment.

Chall: That s important to have your facts in front of you. I know
that in those early bulletins of the National Association of
Colored Women s Clubs that you saved, you wrote for them, for
several years, telling women how they should comport themselves
and dress. If they were properly prepared and groomed, they
could get in and do the work.

Albrier: That has advanced so much now because, just the other day,

Edith Austin called me and said that she was interested in getting
some young black women in the Skills Center to take welding. They
had these funds to train them. There were any number of white
women, but she hadn t been able to get any black women interested
in welding. In the last class, there was a young black woman who
graduated in welding.

She said, "You know how much she makes now?" I said, "No."
She said, "Twelve dollars an hour." She was quite disturbed and
asked me to help her to get some of the black girls interested,
young women who might be interested in taking up this trade.
It is a stepping-stone because for a long time, they did not take
any women in that class.

Women can weld airplanes. It s much lighter work than in
the shipyard. There are so many things now that they weld instead
of rivet. They used to rivet the ships, and they welded those
ships at that time. Airplanes are welded and it s much easier
because it s just a small line to carry around. But it s very
technical to make that weld and not burn the metal.

142

Chall: It s certainly simpler than putting in that nail and riveting.
How long did you stay in the shipyard, working there?

Albrier: It was eight months.

Chall: Then what prompted you to leave?

Albrier: I began to have a continuous cold. I don t know whether it was
exposure or what it was. But then they had any number of people
working in the shipyards and I didn t think they needed me any more
because they had many people to be employed and the doors that were
shut for blacks were open now.

Chall: You didn t feel your work on the job was that essential anymore,
and you had made your point.

Albrier: Yes.

The Meaning of Craft Auxiliary Unions to Black Employment

Chall: What was your opinion, then, of the formation of auxiliaries, as
such, to unions as a place for black workers?

Albrier: By my participating and belonging to the auxiliary, to 513,
Boilermakers and Welders, it was just giving me a mandate or
permission to work.

[Interview interrupted by phone call.]

Chall: That s true. You had to accept the fact that they put Negroes
into auxiliaries, but was there any power?

Albrier: What they did was put Negroes into auxiliaries that was just an
okay that you could work. That s all you got. You got none of
the other things, or fringe benefits protection

Chall: Advantages?

Albrier: advantages of the union, like insurance.

Chall: You didn t?

Albrier: No. Accident policies. We didn t get any of the fringe benefits
that went with the union. We just paid to work.

143

Chall: White workers got certain fringe benefits that you didn t get?

Albrier: That s right. They were bona fide union members or they could not
be employed. The contracts were made with the union to supply the
skilled and unskilled labor.

Chall: You didn t have a voice in the running of the union, either.

Albrier: No. We were just paying to have the opportunity to work. That s

what the auxiliaries were for. After the shipyard closed, they

were out. We were not considered union members, bona fide union
members.

Chall: What about black men? Did they also have to join auxiliaries?
Were they out after the war too?

[Some renewed static]
Albrier: The same thing.

I think it was about seven or eight years afterwards, Local
513 had some officers elected who did not like that policy. They
started working on it because at the international conventions,
they had black friends who were working in the shipyards and a few
other places, mainly shipyards, and they had noted this discrimi
nation. When they were sent back as delegates to the International
Boilermakers Union, they protested. This couldn t be wiped out
until the International Boilermakers Union did. Then the locals
could set policy. So they had to build up delegates and people
in that union who were against this, to outvote those who wanted
to help blacks out. They had to put it to a test, to vote
against discrimination against American citizens because they were
black. Finally, they did it. It took, I think about ten or
twelve years before they accomplished that. Not only that union;
many of the other crafts were the same way. But that s history;
that s just what they did. It was quite a jump, when I heard about
this young woman who was trained to be a welder and comparing her
experience to what it used to be, years ago. And how those doors
were now opened.

Chall: There s no way, then, to work at those crafts unless you belong
to a union?

Albrier: You don t work on any job. They have those jobs closed. You
must belong to the union. Not only 513, the Boilermakers. My
experience in the women s auxiliary the dining car cooks and
waiters same thing. At the time I became interested in that,
bakers, cooks, and waitresses were not taken into the white unions.

144

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Local 456, who represented us, had a charter from the International
Cooks, Waiters, Hotel and Miscellaneous Workers Union. They could
take in members of those crafts because they had a charter from
the international. The local in Oakland did not take in other
crafts. Some of them could. The bartenders was the main one.
Some of them could take them in, but they didn t. Did you have
bartenders there, too? Cooks, Waiters, Waitresses, Bartenders.

I have Cooks, Waiters, Hotel, Miscellaneous Workers. Bartenders
comes in before

And bartenders. They re all in the same crafts.

The local in Oakland just set up an auxiliary, is that it?

No. They didn t have an auxiliary. Under that craft. But due to
the railroads, whose employees were black in those crafts, they
had a local under those crafts, Local 456.

It was their own.

We were the auxiliary because we were women, relatives of these
men. We were the wives and sisters of the men.

I see. I was confused,
different ways?

The word auxiliary could be used in two

Yes, that was the women s organization.

Now I ve got that straight. If you were a woman, and if you were
a waitress, you could belong to that union?

Yes, you could belong to that union. You joined that union and
paid your dues and became a member. That s how that union broke
down discrimination in the Bay Area, because they took in black
workers as union members in those crafts. They went on and took
their cards and got the jobs that they had been trying to get.
Before they couldn t.

145

Fighting Discrimination in the Post Office

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall :

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier;

After you left the shipyards, you told me told me that you and a
friend of yours decided to see what you could do about blacks in
the post office. Does that follow somewhere in there?

Yes.

Was that Ollie Hawkins? Was that somebody you told me about
recently? Someone, you had told me, you had gone with into the
post office.

Ollie Hawkins was one who worked at Camp Knight. After I quit
the shipyards, there were still calls, during the war period, for
citizens to work in the postal service because there was so much
mail for the sick men and injured servicemen overseas that was
piling up and they were not getting it. So the call went out from
the government to those persons who had the time and were interested,
to work in the post office. That was my next job in overseas mail.

What did you decide to do there? What brought you to that?
there you knew definitely that you were going to fight some
discrimination.

Now,

Yes, I knew there was discrimination in the post office at that
time. There was discrimination everywhere, in all fields of
employment. I applied, and worked in the San Francisco Post
Office, under a San Francisco postmaster I forget his name I
can look it up.

It doesn t matter if you can t find it.

At that time, at Camp Knight, there was a huge military post
office, where they sent all of us that applied for employment, to
work in that post office. That mail was overseas mail for the
military, both navy and army. A great many women were applying
for the jobs. A great many of them, white, were coming in from
the South, and they brought their prejudice in with them. They
didn t want to sit by a black; they didn t want to work with a
black.

The blacks were coming in also and they were finding out
they had more advantages, so they didn t take discrimination.
So it ended up with fights and disagreements in the post office.
Something needed to be done about it.

146

Albrier: Mr. Lane, who was the superintendent then, at the time, was upset
and didn t know what to do. He called a few of us in. We said
we would set up a club to do some educational work, a postal
service club and we d see if we could iron out all these things.
He said, "If I hear of any discrimination, I will not stand for
it, because we are fighting against those things. We are fighting
for freedom. We are all Americans. That s not my attitude as
superintendent of this post office, but I ll need some of you to
help me."

Chall: It was just a matter of how you got along the black and white
employees.

Albrier: Yes. And there was discrimination in the post office. Some felt
that there was discrimination in elevation, too, to different
jobs. Anyway, some of the postal workers got together and said,
"We will form an organization and we ll get out a little bulletin
for our grievances." They nominated me president of that
organization.

Chall: Postal Service Workers. What was the club supposed to do?

Albrier: Well, the club was to promote more unity and to stop discrimination;
to hear grievances and bring them up to the supervisors and the
superintendents. The supervisors had charge. There were
supervisors in the post office that the blacks felt were
detrimental to them because they were so discriminatory in their
policies. They had nothing to protect them.

When we came up with this club, there were grievance
committees that heard both sides; that eliminated a lot of the
discriminatory policies that some of the supervisors in the post
office had.

For instance, they had bags where mail came in. You would
have to shake those bags out, lay them out, and get them ready
to go out again. They would call all black workers to go back
there and do that dirty work. That caused a lot of friction. Some
would; some wouldn t. They would go back and fuss about it.
Finally, we noted that and brought the grievance to Mr. Lane,
the superintendent .

He ordered that when the supervisors were to send workers back
to take care of those bags, they were to send rows of them; he
didn t care who was in that row. And the next row. Black, white,
whoever was in the row, to do that work. To stop choosing and
say, "You go back, and you go back, and you work back in number

147

Albrier: four that day." Number four was the room where these bags were.

That kind of discrimination prevailed, which we were able to stop,
with the heads of the postal office, by being organized.

Now, the Postal Clerks Union was discriminatory. They took
in no black post office workers. The black postal workers had
their own union.

Chall: They did?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: It wasn t called an auxiliary; it was a bona fide union. Black
Postal Alliance Union.

Albrier: Yes. It was called Postal Alliance. I think they still operate.
But they had a Postal Workers Union under AFL.

Chall: The Postal Clerks Union was AFL?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was that Postal Clerks or Postal Workers Union?

Albrier: Postal Clerks, I think.

Chall: It wasn t the CIO.

Albrier: No.

Chall: The Postal Alliance was ?

Albrier: Black.

Chall: AFL?

Albrier: No, that wasn t AFL. It was their own, but they had them through
out post offices in the country.

Chall: The Postal Service Workers Club was open to blacks and whites?

Albrier: No. Only blacks.

Chall: Just the blacks. With your grievance procedure.

Albrier: Yes. It was just temporary for that type of work during the war
period. A great many of us left that type of work and some kept
on. I met some young women who are retired now, who went to work.

148

Albrier: They took the civil service examination and kept working in the
post office. In fact, the war opened up that type of work for
blacks that was closed to them before.

Chall: The only thing is that you had to make sure that they could go
up the civil service ladder, like the others?

Mr. Lane sounds like a good superintendent.

Albrier: He was a good superintendent. He believed all men should be
treated equally.

Chall: It could have been somebody else who didn t care or was
discriminatory.

Albrier: Yes, there would have been havoc.

Chall: How long did you stay there?

Albrier: In the postal service? I stayed, I think, a year and six months.

Chall: Did you work during the day there, or were you still on the night
shift?

Albrier: I worked during the day. I worked from eight till four.

The Merchant Marines and Discrimination

Chall: During the war, did you have a son who was in the army?

Albrier: No, my son was in the Merchant Marines. The government said all
of the men who were qualified and worked in the Merchant Marines,
they wanted them to stay there, because the Merchant Marines were
the ones who had to take a great deal of the ammunition and
materials for the servicemen overseas. Also, they directed the
Liberty ships.

Chall: Did he enter at a very low laboring position and work himself up?

Albrier: My son started in that work because, when he was in high school,
he decided he wanted to see the world, like boys do. He went
over to San Francisco and talked to a captain. He was just
sixteen but he told the captain he was eighteen. He was large
for his age. The captain said, "I don t believe you, but you
look like a good boy. Yes, you can go on my ship." So he said,

149

Albrier: "I just want to see the world." He said, "All right, I take boys
who want to see the world. What can you do?" He said. "I can
work in the kitchen because my mother taught me how to bake
bread." [Laughter]

I taught all my children how to bake bread, because during
the Depression, the government gave free flour, and my grand
mother had taught me how to bake bread. So my son had to bake
his share of bread with the girls.

He worked with the chef and he traveled all over. When he
got off at port, by him being so young, all the older men took
him under their wings and told him, "We don t want to see you
staying on ship you go back to school because I left school to
go to work. Now I wish I had stayed in school." So he promised
them he would go back to school. When they got to different
ports, they would tell him where to go and what to see. And he
would.

Chall:
Albrier:

But then he got bitten by the bug, the sea bug, he said.
He decided to go to school. In back of his mind, he wanted to be
a chief engineer. So he took up marine engineering. Out here in
the West, he could not go to the Marine Engineering School as a
black, but he went to New York. New York had FEPC at that time.

Right after the war?

Yes. And he went into the Marine Engineering School there. Now
he s chief engineer. For many years, he sailed on the ship HOPE,
the hospital ship, as the chief engineer.

I read that,
position.

I just wondered how he managed to get up to that

He could not get it out here. When we were working for FEPC
under Assemblyman [Byron] Rumford, when they were having their
hearings, I spoke at that hearing on my son and his activity, and
I had his picture in his uniform. I showed the assemblymen who
were on that hearing his picture. I said, "Here s a boy who was
born in San Francisco. He s a Calif ornian. But you see, in
this uniform he couldn t have been in this uniform staying in
California. He had to go to New York where they had an FEPC
so he could be admitted to the Marine Engineering School, because
your unions here did not admit young black men." It was voted
out of committee the first time do pass FEPC out of the committee.
But it took another year or so for that bill to go through.

150

The Little Citizens Study and Welfare Club

Chall: After the war, immediately after, while we re on the subject of

FEPC, you became the president of one more of these little ad hoc
committees you set up to accomplish something. This was called
the Little Citizens Study and Welfare Club. [Laughter] You were
the president and 1.0. Pleasant was the secretary. Was that a
man?

Albrier: Ida.

Chall: And Mrs. Marshall was the vice-president.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Mary or

Albrier: Margaret

Chall: Apparently, you did, I gather, a couple of things, but your main
concern was the passage of the FEPC.

Albrier: We worked on that.

Chall: Also, I gather, what would be a normal adjunct of FEPC that was
child care centers.

Albrier: It was kind of a welfare club, too.

Chall: Tell me about it. How it got set up and what it was meant to do?

Albrier: After the war, when things were settling back into place and
there wasn t as much employment for blacks as there had been,
many black families who had come out here to work, stayed. Some
brought their relatives. That meant a population of black
citizens in the Bay Area, without funds and who were on welfare;
who were untrained, even to live in cities because a great many of
them came from rural districts the backwoods of larger cities in
the South. It was quite disturbing to meet with these families
and to know their predicament.

The NAACP didn t go into that phase of it, so we needed
citizens who were interested in the welfare of other citizens.
We knew that there were many citizens who religiously worked in
their churches and that s as far as they got. They thought they

150a

THE LITTLE CITIZENS STUDY AND WELFARE CLUB
PR G R A M

The Little Citizens Study and Welfare Club Is happy
to have this opportunity to extend sincere Greetings to
our Guests attending our "citizenship" Tea, which is the
Theme this year.

We hope that you will enjoy the Program and Speakers.
Make yourselves comfortable and stay as long as you wish.
One of our special events will be the Guest Speaker our
own News Director and Commentator over K.L.X. Mr John K.
Chapel at 5jOO p.m. Judge William McGuiness, Dr. Marvin
Paston, and others will also speak. And there will be
Musical numbers.
Purpose and Pro gram ~~ *

Little Citizens the everyday men and women who make
up America--the Common Man. "God loves them; that s why
he made so many cf them." -- Abraham Lincoln.

We are dedicated to the service of others--to aid
them in health, mind and body--to help fit each citizen for
a greater service to our Communities and to our Country
thereby making a better World, through Education, Welfare
and Human Relations.

Mr. W. L. King, Chairman

Mrs. Fannie Williams, Co-chairman

Assisted by: Mrs. Frances Albrier,

Mesdames Ruby Poole, Bertha President.
Collins, Holt, Annie Hart, Mrs, Ida Pleasants,

M. Marshall, K. Hayes, Mae King; Secretary
Messrs. L. Cotton, Griff Collins, Mrs. Bertha Collins,
L. Pie as ants,. M. Coppage, Secretary
GIbbs L. .Webb, and R. M. Mills

Mrs. M. Marshall, VIce-Pres
Mr* Janes GIbbs. Vice -Pre s.

151

Albrier: had done their share. But we needed citizens to go out into the

communities and to meet these people, to educate these people, and
to help them to become good citizens, and to advocate better living
for them, and to speak for them, because a great many of them
didn t know how to speak.

They didn t know anything about politics or anything. All
they knew was being a good citizen; work if you can get a job,
work and go to church. They needed to be instructed how to join
other clubs; how to join community clubs and how those clubs
would elevate them, and to be concerned, themselves.

That was the beginning of this Little Citizens Study and
Welfare Club. A group of us met at that time and I discussed
those things with them. I named it Little Citizens. When they
asked me why, I said well, little citizens are the majority.
Abraham Lincoln said that God must love little citizens because he
made so many of them. We were the ones who advocated, in our
meetings, that we should save good clothing; we should share
food. If we were putting up jellies, jams and fruits, to put up
extra jars, so we could give it away in baskets to citizens who
needed it. Or in churches. If we had a good coat we didn t
want, we cleaned that coat and put it away, so we could give it to
somebody who needed it, and to help each other.

We had our own entertainment. We had our own lectures
people to come and lecture and inform us on different things. A
great many of those citizens had never had that before. They felt
very elated and proud that somebody would feel honored enough to
come to them, to tell them about different issues and things.
Along with it, the responsibility of being a good citizen, was to
be a voter; to take a part in the government. It was really kind
of a school, or club, or organization that puts its arms around a
bunch of citizens that need to be informed and sends them out
into the community.

Chall: How did you get these people? Actually, where did you hold your
meetings where others would come to speak?

Albrier: We held meetings in our homes. We would meet in the school

recreation centers that were open, in the parks, or those centers
that were open for public meetings. A great many of our meetings
were held in homes. We held teas in our homes. I held any number
of meetings here. In the beginning, we met in our homes, because
we would meet in the communities where the people were. They would
come to the homes feel more free than going to a public meeting,
unless it was some big speaker or issue that came up that they
were interested in.

152

Chall: So you had to find the people whom you felt needed this kind of
help and induce them to come to your home or to a meeting.

Albrier: I knew any number of the people because they were referred to me
by social workers in the welfare department. They would know of
these cases they felt merited some help and education. They would
refer them to the Little Citizens. It didn t take them long to
find out that there was a group interested in doing such activities,
by having such activities in a community to help people.

Chall: Did the work of getting the meetings established and deciding the

speakers and all that, was that done primarily by you and

Mrs. Pleasant and Margaret Marshall, or did you have some others
who helped you out with this?

Albrier: We had others. I d have to look up their names. One of the
things that the Little Citizens Study and Welfare Club did:
It was proposed by one of the members that every month, we have
a Go-To-Church-Sunday. We would choose the church. Sometimes it
was a member s church. They would get in touch with the pastor
and ask if we could worship with them at that church on that
Sunday. When we did, the pastor would always ask that I speak.
I would tell the people about the Little Citizens Study and
Welfare Club and what we were doing that we wanted them to join.
We wanted them to come to us if they felt the need of being
informed on anything.

Then I would always end up about their behavior, coming
West, that they d have to drop some of the attitudes they had in
themselves. A great many were from the country, and we would
inform them about their attitude going into stores, trying on
clothing not to do that if they come from work. Dress up and go
and try on clothing clean and nice. All of those tiny things
that we felt they should know and there wasn t anybody to teach
them. And we got great response from the churches and pastors
by doing that.

[end tape 5, side 2]

[Interview 6: January 16, 1978]
[begin tape 6, side 1]

Chall: I wanted to finish up a little bit, before we go into the
subject of politics today, with Little Citizens Study and
Welfare Club. I think you told me last week that some people felt
that they were little citizens; they were not big citizens
and they didn t know why you didn t let them join. Is that
right? [Laughs]

153

Albrier: Yes. A great many professionals said that they were little

citizens, also. They were not big citizens; tnty were little

citizens also.

Chall: And they wanted to come in and join?

Albrier: They wanted to join with the little citizens.

Chall: Did you have a restriction on membership? Could anybody join?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Anybody could. The professionals could, too?

Albrier: Yes, if they wished to.

Chall: What did it cost to join? Was there a fee?

Albrier: The joining fee was, I think, three dollars a year, and fifty
cents a month dues.

Chall: Did you find that your work in integrating all these new

Southern citizens in the community and helping them to understand
the community was effective?

Albrier: It was very important that something like that be done. That s
why the professionals wanted to join the Little Citizens, so
they could come in contact with these different people and study,
themselves, how they could help them in their different vocations.
For instance, we had several doctors and any number of labor
people the different professions joined through the membership.
The membership requested them to join. That way, they helped build
up the community and helped build up their different professions.
Besides it was educational for a great many of them because a
great many of the westerners had never lived South.

Chall: So they learned from each other?

Did the Southern blacks who came into the community were
you able to make them feel part of the community and change some
of their habits so they were accepted, particularly in the white
community where you wanted them to find jobs?

Albrier: Most of them were eager to learn and to adjust themselves. They
were very happy that they found people who were friendly enough
that they could ask all kinds of personal questions and not feel
embarrassed, which they did with a great many of the members.

154

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

They didn t do it all the time at meetings, but they would meet
other members. That s where the professionals were very good
for us and did so much work for us. Many of them would choose an
attorney, they would choose a plumber or a carpenter who had been
out here many years, and who perhaps came from their state. They
came out at an early age with their parents. They could confide
in them and not feel embarrassed. Before, they felt embarrassed.

So you were really bridging a gulf?

Many times, we would have that in discussions questions and
things we thought were embarrassing and English. A great many
of them used dialect English and were laughed at. The parents
were embarrassed and they knew their children were. They were
eager to rectify that so they could be able to help their children.

There were really problems that most of us don t consider, don t
think about, unless we know.

Did you gain leadership, ultimately, from some of those
people in the community community leadership or political leader
ship? Did any of them come in to the leadership group in the
Berkeley community?

Yes, they did. During the campaigns and during the Depression,
you were able to get people s ear. Everybody needed jobs;
everybody was handicapped in not being employed and not having
money. They didn t know what was what. Then came WPA and NYA
with its guidelines. A great many of them did not understand all
of those guidelines that were here.

I see. We re now talking about post-war influx,
unemployment after the war, too.

There was

These were people who were here before the war. They had not
taken part in any politics. They knew they had a governor and
knew about the president. In fact, it s very fashionable, even
today, that people will vote for the president and not vote
again until the next presidential term. Because it s popular to
vote for the president.

They don t care who s the governor, or who is the mayor at
that time, they didn t. They just said, "Well, people who know
about those things, go on and vote." They would all probably do
the same thing and they all feel about the poor people the same
way and the black people the same way. That was their idea.
Through Little Citizens, we were able to educate them on what
politics was, and their participation, and what their vote meant,
and what going to meetings meant.

155

Chall: I see. And I suppose many of the black people from the South

hadn t voted ever. I mean, they hadn t been allowed to, many of
them, so they didn t know that, either.

Albrier: The Little Citizens Club, during the war years, educated those who
were going back South, also, and encouraged them to go back and
vote. After that, it was quite a change throughout the South,
because different people from the southern states had traveled
not only to California, but to the northern states as well, to
work in the war crafts, shipyards, and places like that. They
went back and they knew that they could vote.

In some of the states, they had to own land or pay a poll
tax. We encouraged them to pay the poll tax. Through the paying
of the poll tax and voting, we ll be able to abolish the poll tax
which happened.

Chall: I hadn t realized the importance of encouraging people, who were
going back, to become aware of their opportunities.

Albrier: That s why I said that was one of the benefits of a war. War

educates people; it brings people from I say, the bowels of the
earth because a great many of these people came from deep
Mississippi, Georgia and Louisiana, off of plantations where they
were just miles from a railroad station. But they heard of
employment, and they made up their minds they wanted to change
their lives and better them. Besides the large cities. And they
came West and went North to get into this employment, and to
make some money.

Chall: I see; then they went back.

Albrier: Otherwise, if we hadn t had a war, those people would have been
where they were.

Chall: So that was the intent of your club.

Albrier: But I don t think we were as effective and as able to do the

things and accomplish the things for people that we did do, until
after the war, for the people who remained.

Chall: I noticed at least your scrapbook indicates most of the activity
was after 1945.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: But you had started earlier?

156

Albrier: For a while, during the war period, we didn t have many meetings
because everybody was employed. I was myself.

Chall: That would make a difference, too.

Albrier: After the war, we started the meetings over again, because we
saw a greater need for the Little Citizens. That s the reason
why we said Little Citizen, in order to encourage people to
join where they could get companionship and begin to know each
other. We could talk, face to face, about issues.

Chall: How did you may have told me last week, and I ve forgotten this
was organized by you and Ida Pleasant and Mrs. Marshall. Just
three women sitting around

Albrier: No. Mrs. Marshall Well, Mr. Pleasant was in it
Chall: But you were the officers.

Albrier: I ve been trying to find the list of the officers. We had other
men in, but I ll have to find their names and fill it in.

Chall: So this wasn t a women s group as such?

Albrier: No. We first started out with about eight or nine members. It
was through just a discussion. We were talking about the needs
and what we should do for our people. We knew they should become
aware of a great many things, and that they were embarrassed.

Everyone in the club were church people belonged to
different churches. Mr. and Mrs. Pleasant, a lot of them, belonged
to the Baptist church. I belonged to the Methodist church. We
felt that the churches were not coming out or they felt they
couldn t come out and do the things that we felt should be done
and needed community organization. We would use our churches, so
that s why we got the program of going to the church some
church some of the members church. A member would request their
pastor to invite or let us come to church one Sunday morning. I
was to speak and tell about the club, its objectives and what we
were doing to help people. That way, we won other churches and we
won other members in the churches. The church we went to a
member of Little Citizens was a member of that church.

Chall: That s always a good entrance. So, eventually, I suppose, the
club you all felt you didn t need the organization as such any
longer and it disbanded like some other groups do, in time?

157

Albrier: It just disbanded. A great many of the members became busy.

Some of them moved away; some went back home. Others who lived
here, became busy with other things. We quietly just disbanded,

Chall: It serves its purpose at the time. Then something else comes
along.

158

V A HALF-CENTURY OF POLITICAL ACTION, 1932-1978

Chall: Now I wanted to get into your area of political action. I realized
when I was looking at my notes that you were doing a number of
other things at the same time, but we ll just work today on politics,
Initially, I noticed from some I guess it was a press release
that your activity in politics had begun in 1932. I wondered
whether that was with the Democratic party or the Republican party.

Albrier: Democratic party.

Chall: Had you been a Republican, a registered Republican, ever, before you
became active in the Democratic party?

Albrier: I registered in the Democratic party, I think, in 1936. My

registration is in the book. [scrapbook] Before then, I was a
Republican, but I wasn t active I voted Republican.

Chall: Before 1932, then, you voted Republican?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Until 1936, you were a registered Republican?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That means that you came in with Franklin Roosevelt.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Where you came from, your grandmother and

Albrier: They were all Republicans. My father never changed his regis
tration. A great many of the black people, the older ones, never
changed their registration, especially those from the South. But
they would vote Democratic at times for an individual or president.
They felt more allied to the Republicans

159

Chall: The party of Lincoln.

Albrier: Yes than they did the Democrat.

Chall: The Depression changed all that, I guess.

Albrier: Yes. And the younger generations who came up in the later years,

The Alameda County Democratic Central Committee; The First
Woman Elected, 1938

Chall: In 1938, you became a candidate for the Democratic party, the

Alameda County Democratic Central Committee, at the request of the
Federation for Political Unity of Labor s Non-Partisan League. Is
that correct?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: You ran on something called the Progressive Democratic Slate, which
is interesting, because people hardly ever run on anything for the
Democratic Central Committee. And you ran with Raymond Barry

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: C.C. Cook, Elizabeth Graham, and U.S. Johnson. I don t have any
material on this from your scrapbook from 38 until about 48, so
I don t know whether any of them were elected except you.

Albrier: They were all elected: Albrier, Barry, Cook who were the others?

Chall: Elizabeth Graham. No, she couldn t have been because you were the
first woman. And U.S. Johnson

Albrier: No, Mrs. Graham wasn t elected.

Chall: But Barry was?

Albrier: And Dellums.

Chall: Dellums was elected?

Albrier : Yes .

Chall: C.L. Dellums. He wasn t part of that Progressive Democratic Slate,
was he?

160

Albrier: No.

Chall: Raymond Barry was elected. Was he black?

Albrier: No.

Chall: And C.C. Cook?

Albrier: Dellums and I were the only blacks, and we were members of Labor s
Non-Partisan League.

Chall: How did it happen?

Albrier: We were members in different districts. He was in the West Oakland
district. I think that was the Seventeenth Assembly District at
that time and Berkeley was the eighteenth district.

Chall: The Non-Partisan League was picking up people whom they wanted
from each to try to get into each district?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Now, what did it mean to be the Progressive Democratic Slate?

Albrier: In Labor s Non-Partisan League, in the Eighteenth Assembly District
of Labor s Non-Partisan League, we had a Progressive Democratic
Slate we were progressive because our ideas were different than
some of the others that were running. For instance, we were support
ing Roosevelt and his ideas, and supporting labor, the working
people.

Chall: And Olson? Culbert Olson?

Albrier: He was running for governor. And we were supporting Downey. Olson
as governor, and Patterson as lieutenant governor, and Sheridan
Downey as Senator.

Chall: That was a pretty progressive slate, in those days. How did it
happen, do you think, that the Non-Partisan League picked you?
Well, they actually picked two women in an area that was usually a
man s sphere. But they were willing to run you and Elizabeth Graham
they didn t have to. Who was Elizabeth Graham to the Non-Partisan
League?

Albrier: Elizabeth Graham was one of the club women. She belonged to the
Berkeley City Club, I think. She was active in the party and
agreed with the ideas of the party. She was a very broad-minded
person. She wanted to see the black people in the community get

161

Albrier: better understanding, and end discrimination, and she felt that
labor should organize and people should get adequate wages. So
she fitted in with the Progressive Slate.

Chall: But you and Raymond P. Barry won in this district, and C.C. Cook.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Who was Raymond Barry at that time?

Albrier: He was just a citizen, an active citizen in the league.

Chall: And C.C. Cook?

Albrier: C.C. Cook was also.

Chall: The fact that the three of you were elected means that you

Albrier: But we were all members of the Labor s Non-Partisan League.

Chall: You were well enough known in the community to be chosen and
expected to win.

Albrier: The Labor s Non-Partisan League had an election for people who
were going to run, or who they d choose to run. Some wanted to
run on their own. I ran by request. They requested that I should
run. At that time, they figured out that we would win because my
name was on the ballot first, as A.

Chall: That s right that does help. [Laughs]

Albrier: It was alphabetical, you see, and Raymond Barry was B. And

Mr. Cook was C. [Laughter] By the time people voted the ballot,
by the time they got down to the central committee, they didn t
bother about the central committee, because a great many people
didn t know the activities of a central committee i n a party then.
So they just voted straight down the line. One, two, three, four,
five, and the first three or four would be elected.

Chall: So you had a double advantage: One, you were well known, and

secondly, your name was Albrier, so you were at the top. That was
pretty clever thinking. And Dellums won in his district. When you
got on, how did it seem?

Albrier: No. Dellums was from the same district.
Chall: Was he?

161a

Certificate of Election

To Member County Central Committee

(By BOARD OF CANVASSERS.)

(Section 23, Dinot Primary Law)

Office of County Clerk,

County of. Alameda.

Is t0 Qkrtifg that .l*r.np.es..M.Albrier _ m _

teas elected to the office of Member of County Central Committee for the

iaik..Aj8 J 8fimbOj.. District

by the. JDfiffl.0.cr.a.tio. party at the primary election held in the above

named county on the 3Hth. day of August, 19. ..33....

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the Board of Supervisors of said County has caused this

official certificate of election to be issued and its seal affixed thereto this l.Q.t&. day

of. Sjsp^ember f 19..?$., by its clerk thereunto duly authorized.

(Seal)

bounty Clerk and Ex-Offkio)Clerk of said
Board of Supervisors.

By . ....Deputy.

*/ * V

Form No. i3-&lt;J30)-CO. CLERK S CERT. OF ELECTION Member Co. Central Com.
Approved by tl&gt; Secretary of StaM and the Attorney GanarmJ.

K. UILIH.I CO- amAM * tgnuat. we, s. r.

162

Albrier: Yes. He was well known in the community and labor due to his

activities with the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters organized
by Philip Randolph.

Albrier: It extended down to where he lived. I think he lived in North Oak
land. He was in the Eighteenth Assembly District.

Chall: And you were in the eighteenth.

Albrier: We lost the eighteenth in the next five years because of population.

Chall: Did Dellums run on his own? He wasn t part of that slate from the
Non-Partisan League. I m assuming that he must have decided to
run on his own.

Albrier: He ran on his own, with another slate. I just remembered that he

and I were the only blacks who were elected. I don t know if other
blacks ran because they weren t interested. By our being in with
labor and interested in labor and labor s policies, we knew that
they must go into politics in order to get legislation for the
working person. That was the reason that drew us in.

Chall: Your decision to be active in politics was to get, presumably, right
into the policy-making centers.

Albrier: Yes. Especially in the communities.

Chall: Generally speaking, the county central committees are not considered
areas of policy making, or power, or anything. Were they?

Albrier: Yes, .the county central committee directs the policies of the party
in that county.

Chall: How strongly?

Albrier: They are responsible for the election of the party s candidates.
Choosing them.

Chall: That s the way it is on paper, but I remember when I talked to

Clara Shirpser about the time [1950] when she was running for the
assembly, and she told me her experience of going to the county
central committee for some assistance. They just really gave her
none no help whatsoever.

Albrier: Maybe they didn t want to. [Laughs] She may have had some ideas
or had some principles she thought about the party that they
didn t like, and they just disqualified her. They do that by
vote. A great many people, then, go out and run on their own and
they re elected and then the party has to accept them.

163

Chall:

Albrier ;

So it isn t a question of their not really functioning,
was the only Democratic candidate in that primary race.

But she

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

They may have asked her certain questions. What do you know about
labor and labor s needs? And, have you ever been active in any
labor organization? What do you know about black people, and
their needs, and what they re thinking? If you go back to the
Democratic party convention, will you lobby against discrimination
against black people in voting?

A great many of them reneged because they had Southern white
friends who might not like it. A few in the organization whose
policies are for labor and for black people and who are working
towards that goal they ll disqualify you if they think you are
not. But still, you can go on and be elected by your friends. A
great many people were. They learned later.

Clara Shirpser came over on the side where the people were
who had these different policies. She was not as independent a
candidate as she was when she first ran. She became a very
liberal candidate after the first two terms she served. [1952-1956]

On the central committee.

Yes.

I suspect that people didn t really know where she was because she
came up so suddenly. You really feel, then, that the county
central committee can be an important factor in elections?

The county central committee is an important organization in
elections. Because the five who are elected from the county
central committee are responsible that the candidates of their
party that s running, get elected in their districts. They are to
inform the people, conduct meetings on the principles of the
party and those who are elected, from the governor on down. I
should say the president on down.

In your Eighteenth Assembly District were you more active than,
let s say, some of the central committee members from other
districts? Did you take your responsibilities more seriously?
Do you think that you and Dellums and some of the others worked
harder?

I think all the committee members who were elected in those days
were serious. The Democratic party took a change under Roosevelt
and Farley and those types of men who were coming out, visiting
and speaking with us and educating us , in order to build a new
Democratic party.

164

Some Recollections of Party Activity

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

How was the reception in 1938 to two black persons in this white
domain, and to a woman who d never cracked that community of
politicians before? How were you received?

I was scared to death when I was elected and attended the first
central committee meeting. The majority of those members were
attorneys. I didn t know too much about the central committee and
what it was to do, so I sat and didn t say anything for about half
the term, and listened.

[Laughs] That s all right you were learning.

I just listened and learned. Then I went to UC [University of
California] and took a course in political science, so I could be
up to date.

[Laughs] They let you in to take a class here?
Yes.

Do you remember whose class it was?

No, I don t remember. It was an extension course,
the instructor was.

I forget who

Chall:

Very smart. Did he know very much about the central committee?
[Laughs] I would guess most professors don t know much about it
either.

The members were very nice. The people I worked with. Some of
them were not many but some of them were as new as I was. We
all were learning together. Of course, at that time, the Democratic
party, under President Roosevelt, had classes and gave out so much
literature that they sent you to read and to learn; to get you
acquainted with, and organized. The first four years were really
a learning process from 1936 to 1938. By 38, they had a lot of
data and books of instructions. They had key people in each state
and in the counties to instruct all the new people who were coming
into the party and into offices.

Instruct them on what their responsibilities were and how to
organize?

Albrier: Yes, politics.

165

Chall: That was coming out of the Democratic National Committee offices?

Albrier: The national Democratic committee. i remember meeting, several

times, Mr. Farley his name was Jim Farley he would come out and
we would all attend his lectures. I was amazed at him knowing
everybody s name .

Chall: [Laughs] Yes, he s given great credit for that, isn t he? He
always was .

Albrier: He d look over and say, "Frances Albrier " I d be startled.
He instructed us on the value of remembering people s names.
They d feel closer to you and feel you were interested in them by
remembering their names. So, he tried to remember everybody s
name. He had such a wonderful memory over the rest of us.

Chall: Yes, he must have.

Albrier: Because I d hear him call people s names. He d been gone out of
the state for months and come back and would call people s names.
They d come up. "How are you?" And he d address them by name.
He said it had a charm to it.

Chall: I m sure! It must have been just great.

Albrier: If we wanted to be successful politicians [he told us] we must take
enough time to remember people and, above all, remember their
names. [Laughter]

Chall: How are you at it? You re not answering [Laughter]

Albrier: I had to be very good at it, but I ve lost it now. My memory
isn t as acute as it was then. I developed a good memory.

Chall: It s training, isn t it?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: In 1938 you were the manager of the East Bay campaign headquarters
for Olson, Brown, Patterson, Roosevelt, that whole group that was
running at the time. Was that a paid position at headquarters or
volunteer?

Albrier: Volunteer. The party didn t have any money. In fact, you had to
put money in it. They didn t have any money to pay people at the
time. That was the responsibility of the central committee. It
was the Depression years. Citizens became interested in government;
what the president was proposing for their welfare. There were many
volunteers to help run the headquarters.

166

Chall: Did you enjoy that?

Albrier: Yes, I did. Very much. I enjoyed working with the people. Every
one was interested. It was easy, at that time, to call a meeting
for something very important because people were not employed and
were disturbed, and they would come to meetings to see what it was
all about.

Chall: In 1940, you were asked to serve let s see, you were made a

delegate to the state central committee meeting to represent the
Eighteenth Assembly District. Is that the only time that you
ever were a delegate to the state central committee?

Albrier: No, I was a delegate to the state central committee many times.
There was only one time that I was to be there in place of an
assemblyman of the district

Chall: That was in 1940

Albrier: that was to represent the assembly district. That was because
we lost our assemblyman in the district to a Republican.

Chall: I see you d had one.

Albrier: The party in this district, Alameda County voted that I should
represent the Eighteenth. I think it was still the Eighteenth
Assembly District.

Chall: Yes, it was.
Albrier: as assemblyman.

[Interrupted by doorbell]

Chall: Can you recollect your first central committee meeting? I mean
the Democratic State Central Committee meeting. Was that a
puzzling meeting to you?

Albrier: The first

Chall: Yes, your first state central committee meeting. Was that the
first time you had been there, in 1940, when you were going in
place of the assemblyman?

Albrier: No, I had been to the state before then.
Chall: Who appointed you?

167

Albrier;

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

I attended the state committee when Olson was running for
governor. [1938]

Didn t you have to go as an appointee of somebody? To be a
member? I guess you could go and watch but to be a member
of the state central committee.

To be a member of the state central committee, you are selected
from the county division where you re from, like Alameda County.
Then the different assemblymen and state senators appoint you. 1
forget who appointed me.

I see. But you were appointed at the time.

Yes.

How did you work in those meetings?
caucus by itself, wouldn t it?

Northern California would

Yes. Under the party system, they had the two divisions: North
and South. Each one would take its turn in selecting and nomi
nating the state chairman and officers. One year the southern
district would select; the next year, the northern district would
select their officers. When you d go to the state convention, I
mean committee you were usually caucusing all the time with your
group and with other groups in selecting people.

Did you find that to be sometimes those election campaigns for
the offices rather bitter and difficult?

Oh yes, it was another campaign altogether, again. It was very

interesting, the different people. Different members would

have different ideas and different campaign literature. Naturally,

they were appealing to the district they came from and where they

lived, and their interest in the party nationally, state and

county.

I don t know which years you went to the state
central committee, so I can t offhand recall some of the most
bitter controversies, but there was one, I understand, sometime
in the I guess the mid-fifties, about 1958 or so, between
David Freidenrich and Byron Rumford over who was going to be
elected secretary? Were you in the committee at that time?

Albrier: I wasn t as active at that time. I was active more in the early
years, the Depression and war years.

168

Chall: Those were the periods when William Malone was

Albrier: William Malone was state chairman.

Chall: State chairman, I see. It was a rather small group then.

Albrier: I was active when he was state chairman.

Chall: Okay. I know those years. Helen Gahagan Douglas was vice-chairman.
[1941-1944]

Albrier: Vice-chairman of the women s division. Later, they elected her
as was she Senator?

Chall: To Congress. U946-1950]
Albrier: Yes, she was elected to Congress.

Chall: It was when she was running for the Senate, against Richard Nixon,
that she failed in 1950.

The Place of Women in the Party Structure; A Loss of Independence

Albrier: It was Helen Gahagan Douglas who encouraged me to organize a club,
a political club, of women.

Chall: Of women?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What club did that turn out to be?

Albrier: I didn t organize a club as she said. I became a part of a club
I joined a club. I joined the East Bay Women s Democratic Study
Club. That was a club that studied politics and had classes for
women who didn t understand, besides encouraging women to join the
party.

Chall: Is that the one you became president of in 67?
Albrier: Yes, later.

Chall: I ve seen it as both the East Bay and Alameda County Democratic
Women s Study Club. Maybe it started out as one and became the
other.

169

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier;

Chall:

Albrier:

It is the Alameda County Democratic Women s Study Club,
in women in Alameda County.*

It takes

Chall:

Albrier:

So that s the one you joined. Did you ever do much with the
women s division? Were you ever active in any state women s
division projects?

I was active when Helen Gahagan Douglas was chairman. Then later,
too, I was active because I was a member of the state committee
and a member of the county committee, also.

What is your general opinion of the separation of women in party
politics from men? Like the women s division or the women s study
clubs. Is it a good idea?

At the time I became active in the women s division, we were
interested in organizing many study clubs, many Democratic women s
clubs, throughout the state. We had our own conference, Women s
Democratic Conference, where we women got together. We had our
officers, presidents, like regular officers at a convention and
state officers.

Then we discussed the problems of women and youth; how we
could remedy these problems or improve the women as politicians
in the party. One of the main reasons was, we knew in the future
there would be women who would become candidates, and it was to
back women, and to help women become candidates, and win in the
party that we built up those clubs. We felt that women had been
kept back and had no encouragement. Unless women backed women,
they would not get any place in the party or in politics.

As long ago as before World War II, then, and after in the
mid-forties, you were talking about this inside the women s clubs,
the party clubs?

Yes. We also won many friends to our cause with the men. In the
county central committee, it was men who nominated me to be
secretary.

Chall: In 1956, that was.
Albrier: Yes.

*In the San Francisco Bay Area, cities in Alameda County are
denoted as being in the East Bay.

170

Chall: Prior to that, you had a term or so as vice-chairman.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I guess that was the place for women, being vice-chairman, often.
Did the men in the central committee that s the Alameda County
Central Committee when they were planning campaigns, maybe making
some decision about candidates and things of this kind did they
take the women into their groups? Did they sort of include them
in or exclude them?

Albrier: They had to include them, because they were a part of the party
a definite part of the party, and voters. They controlled so many
votes. One thing that the party did was detrimental to the
Democratic party women and it is to this day. When I first went
in and became active, the women had a women s Democratic
Federation where they had their own organized conventions and they
had the candidates and elected officers appear before them, and
ask them questions, and they would endorse candidates themselves.

Chall: This was at the state level or the county level?

Albrier: This was at the state level and the county. Af terwards , they
set up a policy to have a women s division in the party.

[end tape 6, side 1; begin tape 6, side 2]

Chall: You were explaining that at one time, when you first came in, the
women in the state central committee had their own conventions.
They were separate conventions and they could assess candidates as
well as the men did. Is that it? Separately.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Then what happened?

Albrier: They were more independent. Then the state set up a women s

division, which kind of separated the women. They didn t do it
intentionally. The women had fought to have equal representation
where a senator [or assemblyman] would appoint two women and
one man each.

Chall: One beside himself.

Albrier: Yes. That made it equal. Equal rights for women came in vogue
at that time.

171

Chall: Yes. That was a special arrangement. They called it fifty
percent the 50-50

Albrier: The 50-50.

Chall: So that changed it?

Albrier: They called that department the women s division. What it did

was lessen the strength of the women who had their own conventions.
The women s division of the party was influenced mostly by the
men. Before then, the women would nominate and elect who they
pleased who they wanted and who they felt was the best person.

Chall: That s for their own division.

Albrier: Yes. They didn t recognize the women s clubs and the women s

convention after that, and that broke up the women s conventions.

Chall: I didn t realize that. So then

Albrier: That s what happened, because I was one who was bitterly against

it because I could see the women losing their power of endorsement.
And that the women s division was influenced mostly by men,
elected officers and party officers. The Republican women still
have their Republican Women s Federated Assembly.

Chall: Yes, the Federation of Republican Women.

Albrier: That s what we should have had, our Federation of Democratic Women.
That s what we started to have. You could continually organize
Democratic women into clubs, and bring them into that Federation.
You had your own endorsement. When you had your convention, you
endorsed people in the districts and counties whom you thought
were eligible to be in that office and who were interested in
women s problems, and would elevate women to office. In those
years, it was a struggle for women in politics.

Chall: Now what they ve done is, apparently, to give women a leadership
title in the women s division, but not the power that would go
with it, as much. Is that what you think has happened?

Albrier: Women had the power if they had kept that federation. What would
happen, like they did in New York, the women still have their
convention. They elect congressmen. If there s a woman congressman

running, she has a lot of strength, if she s endorsed by that
Democratic Women s Federation; not only with votes, but with
money .

172

Chall: By putting a lot of this under the aegis of the party, it diffused
the women. It gave them titles but the same clout wasn t there.

Albrier: The same clout wasn t there.

Chall: You could see that then, in your work with the Alameda County
Democratic Women s Study Club.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: They didn t have the power after that that they might have had
before.

Albrier: What happened the men used the women to do the work. After that,
they didn t have the power or the influence that they should have
because they were scattered. You see, in some of those states
where they retained women s federations, they would say to a
candidate that they endorsed, "We endorsed you because we want you
to make it better create money, for instance, for child care.
We re interested in having adequate child care in this state. We
want you to see that adequate money is provided and provisions made
to have such child care in this state. We have 20,000 votes and
$10,000 at your disposal." And that person usually gets elected
and he does what the women want him to do. He sees what they can
do and puts every effort he can for child care. A lot of
politicians never wanted to see women in that power. They re just
now beginning to get there.

Chall: So this whole resurgence of the women s movement is just coming
back around to almost where you tried to be a generation ago?

Albrier: That s right. I say that because we had many struggles here,

politically, the women in this state. One of them was child care.
When we were lobbying for child care, I remember I went up to
lobby. And when we spoke as to why we should have child care in
this state, one senator said, "What do you want to have that for?
Won t women go to the bars and be having a good time and somebody
else taking care of the children?" I remember I yelled at him and
said, "Didn t you hear us say these were working women who needed
child care? They are not women who attend the bars. It s only
women who have money who attend the bars and don t have anything
else to do. But these are working women ! " [Laughter]

Chall: I guess you can tell the same story just so many times before you
become irritated?

Albrier: That s right.

173

Chall: It took a long time before you got your child care bill through,
didn t it?

Albrier: Yes, it did. They looked at it as leisure. Women wanted leisure
and wanted to place their children somewhere while they go and
have teas, parties, and good times around the bars. They didn t
realize we were beginning, in California, having a large
population of women who were employed.

Chall: And because they had to be.

Albrier: That s right. And were contributing to the welfare of their
children and their families.

Berkeley Democratic Party Leaders and Policies

Chall: It s never been really recognized, that segment of our population.
For many years, Monroe Friedman was the

Albrier: Chairman of the Alameda County Democratic Central Committee.
Chall: He s now a judge or
Albrier: Yes, he s a retired judge.

Chall: Was he, in your estimation, an effective chairman of the party
here?

Albrier: Yes, he was a very good chairman. It was under his administration
that Byron Rumford came up for election and was elected. [1948
to the state assembly]

Chall: Did the central committee help when Byron Rumford was running?
That was rather a major step for a black person and I know the
black community certainly would get behind him, but I was wondering
about the committee.

Albrier: Yes, the central committee put all its strength behind his

campaign. For any number of years, black people had run. There
was attorney Henderson and attorney Jay Maurice at one time. I
think they ran twice. Several others ran.

Chall: For assembly.

174

Albrier: For the assembly. Several whites ran in the Seventeenth Assembly
District for the assembly. They were not elected. Usually, a
Republican was elected in that district.

Chall: So they did really help in his campaign Rumford s?

Albrier: The year that Byron Rumford ran, I was proposed to be the most

eligible candidate who had had the most activity in the Democratic
party. Some other candidates came up, so I suggested we form a
committee, have a meeting, and the people choose who they would want
to run. We had that committee and people met at Bebe Memorial
Church .

Chall: That was in 1948?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: When Rumford first ran-

Albrier: Yes. There were three of us Byron Rumford, myself, and someone
else in the district. Anyway, each of us talked and gave our
ideas, politics, why we wanted to run, and what we wanted to do
in the district or see that was done in the district. A meeting
was called of voters in the district and an election was held. Byron
got the most votes. We decided to get in behind Byron. That
would cut out any other persons who would decide to run. At that
time, we just had Byron running in the district.

Chall: That certainly made it much easier.
Albrier: Yes. To be elected.

Chall: I understand that in making the decision to have the meeting and
make sure that only one black candidate ran that D.G. Gibson
was behind it.

Albrier: D.G. Gibson?

Chall: Behind some of that strategy. Was that right?

Albrier: He wasn t behind that strategy, but he came in behind Byron Rumford
and became his campaign manager at that time.

Chall: Had D.G. Gibson been active in the community?

Albrier: Yes, he had been active in the community organization clubs.
He was then becoming a businessman. Before then, he was a
railroad man.

175

Chall: A porter, wasn t he?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: The two of you, from what I can gather, followed somewhat the same
kind of path; that is, you were active in women s clubs and quite
concerned about raising the level of the black people in your
community. From what I gather, he was active in clubs, too, with
the same motivation.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And you were both very active in the Democratic club and party. I
wondered at what point your paths might have crossed. I mean you
went along in the same direction but at some point you might not
have agreed with one another. Generally, were you in agreement
working together?

Albrier: We went along in the same direction. Afterwards, I kind of with
drew from being really active in politics. I let them take over
and I withdrew, for a while.

Chall: Did you withdraw because you wanted to or because the men were
getting much stronger?

Albrier: Because I wanted to. I became more interested in the women s
organization outside of politics.

Chall: That would have been, when? You stayed on the central committee
until about 1962.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Were you active in politics well, I guess you were until that
time.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: In fact, if you became president of the Alameda County Democratic
Women s Study Club, you must have stayed active until about 1970,
or "68 at least.

Albrier: I think so.
Chall: Partially active?

Albrier: I think I was. I mean I wasn t as active as I was when I was
on the central committee because the central committee included
the five assembly districts. For instance, a person should be

176

Albrier;

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

very well aware and acquainted with the Berkeley area in the
district; in the West Oakland area in the district, and the North
Oakland area in the district.

It was a large district.

Yes, yes. And know the needs of the people, and listen to them to
see if you could help them politically. It was quite a
responsibility .

So you did that. You became sort of roving listener for
party?

the

Yes. Besides the meetings.

Did Mr. Gibson work well with politically active women like you?
How, in fact, did the black male leaders accept and work with the
black women leaders, as the men came into more political
prominence?

When Mr. Gibson and Rumford came in, we older ones were in ahead of
them; had paved the way and opened many doors for women. When
Mr. Rumford came in was elected quite a few young women became
active in politics and in the party. That was one reason why I
became not as active as I had been and let them take over, because
they had new ideas. It was a different time and a different
administration. They seem to have taken on in some ways that
took longer for them. Many of them were interested in their own
selves, and jobs, positions. When you become interested in yourself,
you lose the contact with people and people lose their respect for
you.

You re talking about women?

Yes.

The women, I see.
political titles?

What were they interested in? Political jobs,

Yes. Political jobs and titles. Those who went on the central
committee I know one was interested in cosmetology and being on
the cosmetology board. Appointments to the boards and committees.

Women went into politics the way some men are seen as going into
it, as a step up?

That s right. A great many of them went into it at that time. A
great many of the black people were disappointed because they
thought that Mr. Rumford could get them in these jobs. They weren t

177

Albrier: very well aware that he couldn t. He might recommend them, but
that was as far as he could go.

The educational process in politics, and why you should be a
good Democrat, and why you should keep up with the party and vote
for the party, and expect your candidates to live up to their
requirements , and live up to their promises , is through your
vote and not what you might get out of it. You get so much out of
it by seeing that they do what they should do in legislation.
That type of education had to still has to be done in the public
and in the communities. A great many people said to me, and my own
family said to me, "You work so hard in that party and spend so
much money on that party. What do you get out of it?"

Chall: How many people worked in the party for just the goals that you ve
mentioned without wanting anything for themselves? Let s say those
early central committee members, the men. How many of them were
in there, not to be judges and not to get contracts, but because
they wanted their candidates to live up to certain principles?

Albrier: There weren t too many of them. They were in there for some

particular reason. They were for themselves or their children
or relatives. Then there was a group, and my group was in it for
all the people and for the masses of young people, following.

Concern for Black People, Especially Women

Chall: Your group, meaning the blacks?

Albrier: For instance, when I worked in the party, there were no black

clerks in the Department of Motor Vehicles [in Berkeley or other
cities]. I forget who took over that department. When they did,
this man said to me, "Mrs. Albrier, I hired three young black women
as clerks today in the Motor Vehicle Department in Berkeley. I
know you will be pleased because that s what you ve been talking
about." I told him that I was very pleased and thanked him very
much because that s what I was doing it for. I had children who
were coming up and in school and I did not want them to be
turned down and have it said they could not have a position because
they didn t hire a black girl, or hire blacks.

Chall: You were in there to change the rules of the game so that the blacks
had an entre into American society by law, through the system?

178

Albrier: Yes. I knew a long time ago. People like Mary McLeod Bethune
who I knew very well, and other women of that type, and the
teachers those in Tuskegee and Howard instilled in us older ones
that we would not get what we thought we would get. We would
not get any positions that we were entitled to, but we must struggle
and work to place the other younger ones behind in those positions;
open those doors. And it would take time; so we d have to have
the patience. I have lived to see the things that I ve worked
for come to pass today, because I never thought I d see so many
young black women in positions that I see them in today.

Chall: You were not only trying to raise the level of blacks in general,
but you ve always had a feeling about raising the level of black
women, haven t you? Women were important to you.

Albrier: They were very important to me because they seemed to be the down
cast more than the men. If the men had super strength, they would
get there, but the woman with super strength, didn t.

Chall: I see.

Albrier: Just because she was a woman.

Chall: As Shirley Chisholm says, it s more difficult to be a woman and
more so to be black and a woman.

Albrier: That s right.

Chall: I m not sure that I got your point. In the late fifties, then,
you said when the administration changed, then you began to go
out of party activities. Does that mean when Kennedy came in, in
that administration, or which administration changed? Do you
mean at that time you began to let the younger people take over?

Albrier: I didn t run for the central committee. I wasn t a committeeman
or a state committeeman anymore, where I was very close with the
party. I was only in the club. I retained my membership in the
Democratic Women s clubs. We were interested, especially, in
women and getting women out and registered. We were responsible
to get women out to vote and get out the vote for the party, which
was always a big job. That was left mostly to women because the
men were employed and women had to run the campaign offices and
help to get the men elected during the election time.

Chall: But as far as taking a strong hand in policy inside the party, you
must have dropped out about the early sixties, I take it.

Albrier: Yes.

179

Chall: That was when Lyndon Johnson came in, and I guess the movement
changed the black movement became more militant, too.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: There s some change taking place that we probably will identify

more closely at another time. I ve taken off some of the letter
heads of the Alameda County Democratic Central Committee, the names
of some of the women who were on the committee like Minnie Lou Eakin,
Lennah Labadie, Claudia Zumwalt, and you. That was a small group.
There were never too many women, but there were always a few.
After you, there were always a few.

Albrier: I worked a long time with those women.

Chall: Minnie Lou Eakin was from the Seventeenth Assembly District.
None of these women were black, except you, were they?

Albrier: No, they were all white.

Chall: In 1948, Ruby Hall came in and was elected secretary. Was she
black?

Albrier: No. Secretary of the central committee?

Chall: Yes. Still we had only two blacks in 1948. Rumford and Albrier.
In 1950 Tarea Pittman was elected and became vice-chairman of
the central committee. That was one more black.

Albrier: That s right.

Chall: Was her reason for coming into the central committee the same as
yours?

Albrier: She came in when Rumford came in as assemblyman, running for
assemblyman. She became active then. Before then, she was
definitely in the NAACP.

Chall: She became active in the party as a result of working with
Rumford s election?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: In 1954, the Seventeenth Assembly District ran five candidates, all
of whom I think, but I don t know, are black: You, and D.G. Gibson,
Leo Brown, Irma Lewis, and Claude Alan. Are they all black
people?

180

Albrier: Yes, they re all black. They weren t all elected, though.

Chall: Ncu The only person elected was you. You got seventy-seven

votes. The next highest was Gibson with thirty-two. So you were
the only one elected in that group. That was 1954, at least I
think it was 54.

Albrier: I forgot that.

Chall: That shows that you were pretty popular. Of course, you were still
at the top with your A.

Albrier: I ran so many years, people would look for my name on the ballot,
Chall: At least they knew one person who was running.

Albrier: And when I didn t run, they still looked for my name. Then they d
look for my name to see who I endorsed. They still do that.

Chall: Do they call you?

Albrier: Yes, they call me, or tell me they look to see who s endorsing this
candidate and look to see if I ve endorsed them. If I didn t,
they would call and ask me about them.

Chall: That indicates you arrived in an area of leadership.
Albrier: Yes, I guess so.

Campaigns for Committee Offices

Chall: In 1956, there s still only a couple of women. Now, let s see,
I m going to ask you about the 1956 election in the central
committee, in Alameda County, because apparently there was some
tough election between, for chairman, Charles Russell and
Laurance Cross. What was all that about?

Albrier: They were running for chairman.
Chall: Yes, but why so tough?

Albrier: There s always a lot of interest in who s to be chairman of the
central committee. That s an important office. Directing the
policies of the party in the state, the county chairman s the one
who helps choose the state chairman.

xsua

Two leterheads and a central committee election flyer

DEMOCRATIC CENTRAL COMMITTEE

OF ALAMEDA COUNTY

ZI05 MacARTHUR BOULEVARD

OAKLAND 2, CALIFORNIA

-KEIlog 6-4703

CHARLES A. RUSSELL

Chairman

TWr+eentti Assembly District
Charles A. RuII
John M. Hoffman
Mrs. Marilyn Malona
Robert Fairwtl!
L*on McCool
Carlos See

Fern-tenth Assembly District
S. O. Connelly
George E. McDonald
Richard P. Schacht
Mrs. Myrtle Williams
Robert E. (Bob) Sarvay
Robert W. Crown

Hfreeirth Assembly District
Roy P. Mitchell
Robart H. Rosa
Charles P. Murray
Carl A. Portada
Alfred Dunn
Robert B. River

Sixteenth Assembly District
Robert S. Johnson
Daniel f. Cunningham
Lorey Freebom
6eorge L. Rice
Sam W. Blanford
Wm. M. Freeborn
Anga Bjornson

Seventeen^) Assembly District
Cari F. DlHmar
E. O. Corson
William Springer
Delmar 6. Williams
Mri. Frances Albriar
W. Bren Rumford

Bflhteenrh Assembly District

Ellubeth Torrey Andrews, M.D.

Winton McKibben

Hollis 0. Bledioe

Robert E. Darieau

Roberta R. Bralenahl

Or. Jas. 6. Whitney

GEORGE L RICE
Vice-Chairman

MRS. FRANCES ALBRIER
Secretary

DANIEL F. CUNNINGHAM
Treasurer

S. O. CONNELLY
Corresponding Secretary

1756-1958

ALAMEDA COUNTY
DEMOCRATIC CENTRAL COMMITTEE

1946-1948

1445 HARRISON STREET

OAKLAND 12, CALIFORNIA

TWinoab 4358

CHAIRMAN

Monroe Friedman

VICE-CHAIRMEN
Claudia Zumwalt
John C. Sirrt
Praneet ^t-Albrier ___

DISTRICT VICE-CHAIRMEN
Frd Boxly
John H. Bittmn

H. Crvau

SECRETARY
C*ri F. DHtmar

TREASURER
Cliff Hildebrand

Dave C. Aden
Raymond P. Barry
Tom Bolster
Robert T. Bolton
Frank F. Burke
Raymond P. Colfixer
Frank V. Cornish
Paul J. Dempsey
Leonard Dieden
Hon. Francis Dunn
Minnie Lou Eakin
Herbert Enkine
Herman A. Hager
W. Glen Harmon
William H. Hollander

Richard T. Krom

Lennah E. Labadie

Ray Leslie

Andrew Monahan

Chas. P. Murray

John Peregoy

Charles Roe

Ivan Sparbeck

.These are your official x &lt;
Democratic candidates for
County Central Committee:

. . &gt; *"-. ,-".. ; v

"- -^ -. -- ."* *&gt;": . -" * ,( *-

V: V b. G. GIBSON

*..". IRMA LEWIS
.i~ , . CLAUDE ALLEN ^

FRANCES ALBRIER

LEO BROWN

t.-,

YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO VOTE
USE IT TVESDAY, ]VNE 8
Polls open from 7:00 a.m. 7:00 p.m.

VOTE EARLY V;v-;.
VOTE DEMOCRATIC

- ^V . ? -"" V a- *.."! , . * ,- -.

"_; 17th Assembly District Precinct Club

J -.^V : :. . 40 ..^ _.^. .- . t

181

Chall: That s right. On the executive board.

Albrier: And he s our delegate to all the state offices, meetings and
conferences like that. Carl Dittmar, that year, ran

Chall: He was running for secretary. You beat him for secretary. Why

was that so hotly contested? You d think nobody would want to be
secretary [laughter] and keep the minutes.

Albrier: The secretary has so much prestige in the party.

Chall: That was a very close vote seventeen to sixteen. According to
the newspapers, this was the Tribune, the meeting was prolonged
by parliamentary tangles and several election contests [laughter] ;
so you came out ahead on that one. Was Charles Russell a good
chairman?

Albrier: Yes, he was. He was from the San Leandro district.

Chall: Laurance Cross had been active politically here in Berkeley for a
number of years, too.

Albrier: Yes, it was the Democrats who made him mayor and they tried to
send him to Congress, but he didn t quite make it.

Black Activists in the Central Committee

Chall: I saw a picture of a group of black political activists:

Leo Brown, Frances Albrier, Arthur Fletcher, Lillian Potts, and
Edward 0. Pete Lee. What were you all representing?

Albrier: We weren t running for any office or the central committee. We

were in our organization together. What was that other name? One
name there you read is a Republican. He ran on the Republican
ticket.

Chall: Arthur Fletcher?

Albrier: Arthur Fletcher. He came up and had a very distinguished appoint
ment through President Nixon in the Republican party. I forget
the Department of Labor?

Chall: .Yes.

182

Albrier: Anyway, he was the only black Republican who had run in this

district. Although we were Democrats, we encouraged him because
I felt that he would go places in the Republican party.

I did not discourage the blacks who ran in the Republican
party. I said there s two parties and you work for what is right
in your party, and I ll work for what s right in my party. We
both would work to help fight against discrimination and racism
in each party. So, we were friends. That s how that came about.

Chall: I think I understand that now. I saw a picture in the paper, in

the Sun Reporter, and this was a sort of caucus of yours, of black
officials. Was he with the Republican Central Committee?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That s what you were central committee people of Alameda County
not all Democrats. I m glad to get that straightened out. In
time, then, you sort of began to become more powerful among your
selves. You had enough black people to develop a sort of black
caucus .

Albrier: We had enough in the population to swing anything that we wanted.
Chall: If you could be unified.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I ve seen Lillian Potts name somewhere else, so she must have
stayed active in politics.

Albrier: She stayed active in politics a good many years. She was on the
Democratic Council of Clubs, and president of a Democratic club.

Chall: And Leo Brown. I ve seen his name, too. He was active.
Albrier: Yes, he was active the same way.

Chall: Then a group of black people became active through the club move
ment, Democratic club movement, I guess. When you were the co-
chairman for Alameda County campaign for Glenn Anderson for
lieutenant-governor in 1958, was that working to get out the vote
and organize the campaign?

Albrier: To get him elected.

Chall: Which you did along with the election for Governor Brown.

183

Albrier: Yes. I started with Governor [Edmund G. Sr.] Brown the beginning

of his campaign. During the early years, in the 1940s, politically
everything was controlled by the Republicans in both counties,
San Francisco and Alameda. There were not a great number of
registered Democrats in San Francisco, but there were quite a few
over here. When a Democrat would run in San Francisco County
we in Alameda County would go over to San Francisco County and
work in his office and campaign and ring doorbells. When
Governor Brown he wasn t governor then decided that he wanted
to run for district attorney, I campaigned in the Fillmore
District for him.

Chall: You mean district attorney of San Francisco. Is that right?

Albrier: Yes, district attorney. At that time, we did not have many

Democrats in any of the city offices. They were all Republicans,
from the district attorney on up. We would go over there because
we had quite a few over here, Democrats, and help campaign to get
a Democrat in that county in office. So I campaigned in the
Fillmore District. That s where the black district was the
black people, for him as district attorney. Then when he became
attorney general, and again when he became governor.

Chall: So you helped him with his campaigns right from the very
beginning.

Albrier: From the very beginning. He came up in the party from the very

beginning. That was one reason why he felt that he must do some
thing to get an FEPC in the state of California. He owed that to
the black people, who had stuck by him all the way through. And
he felt it was the right move to eliminate discrimination in
employment.

Chall: That s understandable.

Albrier: Malone was still the chairman at that time.

Chall: How was Malone to work with? Did you have many dealings with
Malone?

Albrier: Yes, I liked him. He was a very good chairman. Some didn t

approve of everything that he did in the party. He steered the
way and he cleared the way for others .

Chall: Were there any black members of the central committee in

San Francisco at that time that you remember? I m not sure there
were.

Albrier: I don t remember, but I remember there weren t many.

184

Chall: There weren t many there, so there probably weren t many on the
central committee, just because there weren t many in the
population, and they did have to be elected.

Albrier: No. There were a few on the state committee, though, but they
were appointed.

Chall: When you would submit, as you did, in 1946, a resolution to the
Alameda County Democratic Central Committee, regarding lynchings
in Mississippi and Georgia when you called on the United States
government to protect its citizens and prosecute violators
how were resolutions like this received?

Albrier: I always got good response after an explanation. They were
received unanimously through the party.

Chall: So in a sense, you were the conscience, sometimes, of the

group. They might not have paid that much attention to it or
felt concern, but you made it their concern, then. Did you and
Mr. Dellums work together on anything of this kind?

Albrier: We always did, or we always agreed, because we both were working
in NAACP. We were ardent NAACP members. Mr. Dellums was elected
chairman of the Alameda branch of the NAACP after Walter Gordon.
He served as chairman many years .

[end tape 6, side 2]

President Truman and Civil Rights Issues, 1948-1952

[Interview 7: February 7, 1978]
[begin tape 7, side 1]

Chall: What I thought we d talk about today are about three important
aspects of your political career. These have to do with some
aspects of your work in national politics, the Democratic party
clubs that you belonged to and in which you were an officer,
and Berkeley politics.

Let s start with national politics. I noticed in your scrap-
book that, in 1948, you were invited to sit on a platform with
President Truman at a Lakeside Park function in Oakland and that,
in 1950, you were invited to sit on a platform with Vice-President
Alben Barkley at an Oakland Auditorium theater function. Then,
in 1952, you were invited to meet with Harry Truman and other
active supporters of civil rights in the Fairmont Hotel in the

185

Chall: middle of the afternoon, about 4:45. Prior to that, you were
invited to a luncheon which was sponsored by the Northern
California Independent Citizens Committee at the Palace Hotel at
1:00 o clock. I have a feeling all that has to do with civil
rights movements . I thought you might tell me something about
that. If you want to look over those notes, they re the top
four items there. Those I took out of your scrapbook; and there
are probably more.

Albrier: In 1948 I was a member of the Alameda County Democratic Central
Committee. When political figures came to the counties, the
chairman and the central committee had the responsibility to
entertain them; arrange programs and meetings for them. At
that time, President Truman was running to be reelected. We had
this meeting for him at Lakeside Park, so he d be able to meet
the people. He always wanted to meet the people in person, and
shake hands with the people in person as many as possible and
greet them. That s why this function was arranged at Lakeside
Park for the president. But we didn t get a chance to interview
him or to talk to him at any great length of time.

At that time, we were very much interested in civil rights.
All through politics and all through my career in being in
political organizations I realized that that was the only way
that we could attain legislation, and get the influence of key
people on these issues, and explain to them the predicament of
the people especially the black people. And explain what
segregation and all that type of idea that pervaded the country
did to citizens. It was demoralizing the young people as they
came up because they were feeling that their country cared nothing
about them and, therefore, they were not as interested in doing
anything for the country. A great many of them had the feeling
that maybe they should try some other country.

Naturally the parents didn t like to hear their youth have
that type of idea. But they didn t know what to do. A great
many of them who were employed in making a living for their
families did not have the time to read and to study and they
knew very little about politics. So those of us who were in
politics had to get ourselves informed so we could explain to
them, and tell them how to vote, and who to vote for, and if
this person was interested in the same things that they wanted to
know.

Chall: In 1948, the black people were favorable to Truman rather than,
let s say, to Henry Wallace, who was also running that year on
the Independent Progressive Party ticket? How did the community
relate itself to that issue?

186

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

A great many of the black people, especially the young people,
favored Wallace because he seemed to be interested in more
dedicated to civil rights. President Truman came from a state
that didn t have such a good record on civil rights. Wallace
came up at the time when there were people who had advanced
ideas about advancing the conditions of people and who wanted tp
eliminate a lot of the things that he [Wallace] thought were
wrong, with people not only the black Americans btt the
Asians and the other American people, as well as the people
throughout the world. A great deal of thought was given to Africa
at the time. Persons like Mr. Wallace got the ear of pretty near
all of the younger people.

He did?

Yes.

Was that your community? Was this a problem that you felt?

In a way it did split the community.
Mostly along generational lines, then?

Yes. Alben Barkley, in 1950, came out. The party ran in debt
and owed quite a bit of money for campaigns. So they had to give
something and have a good speaker. Alben Barkley was that type
of a speaker and because of the position that he was in

He was the vice-president, too.

he would have some message of interest, to tell the people and
the voters. So that s why he was out here at that time. We
had it in Oakland; the central committee was the platform guest.
Wherever the central committee and the state committee sponsored
an affair, that county committee is always the platform guest.
You get a chance to meet these different people.

In 1952, when President Truman came to the Fairmont Hotel
and came West, he was having, as his running mate, Senator
Sparkman from Alabama. A great many of us didn t agree in
supporting Senator Sparkman from Alabama.

In 1952 that s when Adlai Stevenson was running as the
presidential candidate. Truman was going out of office. But
you re right Sparkman was the vice-presidential candidate and
he was a southerner.

187

Albrier: Sparkman was running for vice-president in 1952. I ll never

forget those dates. A great many of us, especially members of
the NAACP and other civil rights organizations welfare rights
organizations and other organizations felt that we couldn t
support Sparkman. We didn t feel he was the person to be vice-
president or to run as vice-president with Adlai Stevenson. A
great many of the people just wouldn t vote. They would sit it
out. A great many of the black Democrats said that they wouldn t
vote with Sparkman as vice-president.

Chall: That must have been a worry to the Democratic party.

Albrier: We wrote a letter those of us who were in politics and were

members of the county committee to the president and conveyed
to him our thoughts on what the people were thinking out West.
That we weren t pleased with what the Democratic convention did
in choosing Sparkman. I forget who we wanted at that time.

Chall: Would it have been Estes Kefauver? He was interested.

Albrier: Yes. We felt that Estes Kefauver, although from the South,

could get the ear and had more respect by the black people, the
minority people, in the United States than Sparkman, because of
Sparkman s record, because of the reaction of some people in his
own home state that we knew.

Chall: I see. People were opposed to Sparkman all the way.

Albrier: This disturbed the president quite a bit. He knew that some

of the key people in California felt as they did and that they
were not going to vote. They were going to sit it out, as they
call it in politics. He came West to talk to us , so he could
explain to us that people in the South that run for president
and vice-president were responsible to us and they were not just
responsible to their constituency. A great many times, they had
to vote and do what their constituents said to do, in the state,
and requested them to do, in the state, because they elected
them. But once they were free and became a national representative,
like president or vice-president, they were on their own and had
to listen to other people throughout the nation and could not be
held responsible by any few constituents from a state.

He felt that Sparkman in his heart was a good man and was
interested in civil rights for all people and justice for all
people. If he was freed from a few constituents, he would vote
the way that we would like for him to vote. We took his word.
Then we went on and backed Sparkman and Adlai Stevenson.

188

Chall: This meeting that you had with President Truman, was it primarily
black people, a small group of black people, who met with him?

Albrier: Yes. A group of black people who belonged to the committees,
clubs, and organizations.

Chall: He came all the way out here just to placate you, in a sense to

make sure that you got on that band wagon, then, of the Democratic
party?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: So you must have had some weight here?

Albrier: It was people who control a great many of the votes. He went to
Los Angeles the same way and met a group . He met the Bay Area
group; then he met the southern California group, also, and
explained to them.

Chall: Was there any dissension among you after you heard his explanation?
Were some people not really convinced?

Albrier: No, we agreed with him that he was saying something that was

true; that he was giving us the right facts, because a great many
of the people were from the South. They knew some of the white
leaders and some of them who fought for them, but they weren t
handicapped politically as to the voting.

At that time, black people in the South were not allowed to

vote. If they did, they had to pay a poll tax. That had to be

eliminated. They were frightened if they went to the polls to
vote run away from the polls.

So the people like Sparkman had to listen to the other people
who could vote for them and put them in office and take them out
of office, if they wished. President Truman vowed to us and
pledged to us that he would do everything he could to fight that
type of prejudice in the United States, against the citizens of the
United States. And I think he did.

Chall: Yes, he did make a start at it.

Albrier: He did one great thing that we asked him to do after the war.

He ended discrimination in the army and in the navy, which was a
terrible thing and made a great many young people very, very
bitter after the war with their own country. President Roosevelt
did the same thing. It seems like the presidents feel very deeply
on these controversial issues where people are divided and

189

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

separated in their thinking from each other. President Roosevelt
sent Walter White out here to interview myself, Mr. Dellums,
Mrs. Pittman, and several others when we weren t so sure that we
wanted Truman.

In 1944.

Yes. And we weren t so sure even about him.

About Walter White?

No, about President Roosevelt. We challenged him because at that
time, there had been some terrible lynchings in the country and we
were upset. President Roosevelt had promised if he ran he would
do something about lynching. And he hadn t . We weren t so sure
whether we would back President Roosevelt again. So he sent
Walter White, the NAACP president, out to talk. He couldn t come
himself, but he sent Walter White out to talk to us about it.

Walter White told us that the president wants you to know that
he is still against lynching. It s terrible and he s humiliated,
being president of the United States when black people are lynched.
But there are any number of issues and things he would like to do
for the people of the country. He felt that the black people
would profit more by it than the losing of maybe twenty or thirty
people who might be lynched.

That was, he wanted to start social security. He wanted to
start legislation on that because he felt he would not be able to
do it during the next term because certain factions in the Congress
and the Senate were beginning to fight him on the legislation that
he was proposing. He would have to get this legislation through.
That would benefit the thousands of black people. They would profit
more by that than they would if he would come out against the
lynchings. He needed the support of the southern states senators
and congressmen on this legislation he was going to propose.

It s a real dilemma, isn t it? Always that same dilemma that
there was for many years. Was this when he was running for his
second term?

Yes. We were satisfied with that explanation,
and backed Roosevelt.

We went ahead

190

Membership in Local Democratic Party Clubs

Chall: I get the point now with respect to national politics. I wanted
to ask you now something about local Democratic party clubs
because in your scrapbook and in some other material I ve seen,
there seem to have been quite a number of clubs in the area and I
wondered about your relationship to them. In many of them, you
were an officer, so you were obviously active.

In 1945, you were the first vice-president of the Berkeley
Democratic Club. Walter Packard was the president. There were
a number of other officers listed on the letterhead. At that
time, the club was concerned with the passage of one of the early
FEPC bills. Were you one of the few black persons in the
Berkeley Democratic Club? What kind of club was it?

Albrier: When did President Roosevelt run first?

Chall: Let s see. The first time was in 32.

Albrier: That s right.

Chall: The second time, 36. That goes back a long way.

Albrier: I became more active in 1936, the second term when he ran. At

that time, people were going through with this great Depression.
They were just wandering around and not tying themselves into
anything, especially political, because they had to be trained
and educated to know the power of their vote and their duties as
a good, responsible citizen. That s the time that a great many
black people changed their registration the second term of
President Roosevelt, from Republican to the Democratic party.

The Berkeley Democratic Club was one of the clubs that was
organized at that time, and it was a grass-roots club. All of
the grass-roots clubs were to educate and train people into
politics and political activities, and to know about the
committees the set up and what they were to do. There were
hundreds of people who were so busy making a living at the time
that they didn t bother about who was president, and who was the
governor, and who was their committeeman. We needed those clubs,
grass-roots clubs, to get the people in, and get their ear,
and get them trained into politics, so they d know how to register
and vote, what to vote for, and how to voice their opinions on
issues that they didn t like.

191

Chall: If you have somebody like Walter Packard as your president, you ve
got a very concerned citizen there. Was it primarily made up of
university people? You said it was grass roots, so it would seem
you meant that its members were pretty well distributed around the
city, then.

Albrier: It was organized primarily by university people. They were

responsible to get other people in the community into the club.

Chall: Was it a very active club?

Albrier: When they were organized, I had shocked everybody by running for
the county committee and being elected. Naturally, they asked
me if I would become a member Mr. Packard and the others of this
club when it was organized. So I became a member.

Chall: Ultimately, did people like Gibson and Tarea Pittman and others
get in?

Albrier: They were not available at that time. They were not active
at that time politically.

Chall: Can you think of any other black people who were in the club
besides yourself?

Albrier: No. There were any number of them that lived near the university
who joined later. Not many.

Chall: So you were really reaching out then one of the early black
persons to reach out into the white community politically.
You had done this also when you ran for the county committee and
later the city council.

Albrier: I was fortunate and that made me very happy that I lived in

Berkeley, near the university where I met so many of the faculty
and university people and was able to associate with them and
absorb from them the ideas and concerns of a community. Being
very interested also with the students and the children in
school, because I was a member of the PTA, that threw me in contact
with a great many of the university people the wives of
professors. They invited me to different meetings and I would
attend because I was in the learning process, also.

Chall: You were in a learning process. Were they in enough of a learning
process to come down, let s say, into the flatlands and into the
black community and work with you and for you, helping in the
grass-roots work here?

192

Albrier: Yes, if they had the time, they would. Most of them were very

busy people. But they would endorse me anything that I proposed.
A great many of the black people would not believe what white
people told them, anyway, at that time. They were from the
South, and they d say, well, they hadn t done anything; we were
discriminated against in jobs and other places; they just didn t
believe them.

That s one good thing that happened when President Roosevelt
came, and when President Truman began to weld people into having
confidence, regardless of your color, your race. My grandmother
always taught me that there were good people in all colors and
all races and they were all God s children. His spirit dwelled
in a lot of them. I enjoyed this type of people like Walter Pack
ard, Mrs. Henry Erdman.

Chall: I notice that she had done something for you at one time,

Irene Erdman. Yes, I understand, she was a very active and
concerned citizen.

Albrier: Mrs. Hibbard also and a great many of those people who were enter
ing politics and taking an interest in politics, and organizing
people into clubs.

Chall: This antedated the CDC, too, by many years.

Albrier: Yes. After joining the Berkeley Democratic Club, I started the
Twentieth Century Democratic Club.

Chall: I noticed that. You were its president in 1956. Did you start
that club before 56? Was that a CDC [Council of Democratic
Clubs] club?

Albrier: Yes. But it was started before CDC. We helped set up CDC.

Chall: Did you start the Twentieth Century Democratic Club to be a club
in the Seventeenth Assembly District?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Would it have been mixed then or would it have been primarily black?

Albrier: It was primarily black. We had a few white members who lived in
this neighborhood, but it was primarily black, because we were
engaged in the education of the housewives and black women into
politics.

Chall: That wasn t a woman s club, though, was it?

193

Albrier: No, it was mixed men and women. We needed the clubs in order to
get out the elections and the votes. Clubs were the backbone of
the party.

Chall: You started that then before CDC, so that would have been before
1953?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Is that still going?

Albrier: Yes, it is.

Chall: Very good. I wanted to ask you, then, about another early club

which has been mentioned by Byron Rumford, but we don t know any
thing else about it an Appomattox Club which he claims was
organized by D.G. Gibson and himself, Rumford, which was the first
black political club organized exclusively for Negroes. Do you
recall that?

Albrier: I know when i t was organized. It was organized after Rumford
was elected.

Chall: That would have been after 1948, then?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How active and effective was this club? What was its purpose?

Albrier: The Appomattox?

Chall: Yes.

Albrier: It was to organize and to get the interest of black businessmen
in the community, young college students in the community, so
they would become interested and concerned about politics to
further their own ambitions.

It was in the mind of D.G. Gibson that some of the young
attorneys should be judges, and some of the businessmen should be
advanced to other activities that politics could put them in and
be responsible for if they were politically inclined.

Chall: Was this a men s organization, primarily business and professional?
Albrier: It was mostly men, yes.

Chall: It was Gibson s idea, then, to promote the movement of black men
through politics by organizing them separately so that they would
then get a feeling for their abilities in that direction?

194

Albrier:

Chall :
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

That was when he got the position, voted in by the state central
committee, as the Seventh Congressional District chairman. Before
then, we didn t have any black person serving as chairman. Before,
they didn t have anybody who was a member of the state central
committee.

No blacks?

But me. I was the only one. That was the time when

Mr. Francis Dunn and a great many of those people were very active.

We all came into politics about the same time. Francis Dunn and

Judge Monroe Friedman he wasn t a judge then but he was chairman

of the central committee. Those other people, I can give you their

names.

I ve seen them on your letterhead,
letterheads in your scrapbook.

I mean, you ve got some

Well, I have some more. I had a magazine from a Jackson Day
Dinner. A great many of those people have passed away. I became
disinterested and not as active when Byron Rumford came on the
scene. I felt that I d laid the groundwork and I needed rest
from being so active.

At the state level.

Yes, at the state level. I attended the meetings when we had the
state central committee main meeting, but I wasn t active. He
had other people in the clubs and organizations to be appointed.
They had an East Bay Democratic Club organized.

I ve got that on my list.

and most of their appointments were made. A great many members
of that club used to be in the Twentieth Century Club.

Let s see now. The Twentieth Century Democratic Club was the
club that represented primarily the Seventeenth Assembly District?

Yes.

Then I have here that the East Bay Democratic Club was also an
organization in the Seventeenth Assembly District.

Yes.

Were they competitive?

No.

195

Chall: What would have been the difference?

Albrier: That club organized when Byron Rumford became the assemblyman.

Chall: The East Bay Democratic Club did?

Albrier: Yes. Afterwards.

Chall: And the Appomattox Club was also one of his organizations?

Albrier: Yes. But the Appomattox Club was before Rumford, as I remember
now. That was a club that was mostly organized on history. A
group of business people on Seventh Street and other places.
They became politically active after Byron Rumford was elected.

Chall: So it was the East Bay Democratic Club and the Twentieth Century
Democratic Club, then, that were the most active in the area.
You say they didn t there was no competition between them for
members or in whatever their activities were?

Albrier: No, because there were hundreds of voters who could become members.
The members would influence other people and voters their
friends, to join the club. I organized another club, the Golden
Gate Democratic Club.

Chall: [Laughs] You did? I don t know about that one.

Albrier: Mrs. Potts took over the presidency of the Twentieth Century

Democratic Club and I organized the Golden Gate Democratic Club.

Chall: What were the areas, the boundaries, of the Golden Gate Democratic
Club?

Albrier: The Golden Gate had no boundaries. It was the Bay Area.
Chall: The Bay Area?

Albrier: We took in members from all the assembly districts. It was a
club made up more of older people who were Democrats.

Chall: You established it for a certain purpose then?

Albrier: Yes. It was a women s club. We were established in order to

educate women into politics and train women into politics through
community activities.

Chall: At the same time, you were also working, locally, in the

Federation of Democratic Women of Alameda County and the Alameda
County Democratic Women s Study Clubs.

195a

ALAMEDA COUNTY DEMOCRATIC WOMEN S STUDY CLUB

Organized in 1932 with regular luncheon meetings monthly
except in July and August. Affiliated with Women s National _
Democratic Club, Washington, D. C.

SPECIAL NOTICE: Meeting Place: Tom Lovely s Buffet
i Grand Avenue near Perkins

PURPOSE: To afford Democratic women an opportunity to
obtain information about and discuss problems and issues
confronting the country; to do educational work; to formulate
their own policy views; and to create that force of public
opinion without vuhich no political party can operate success
fully.

DATE: Wednesday, December 3, 1969

TIME: 12:00 noon (Arrive early for parking)

PLACE: Tom Lovely s Buffet

Grand Avenue at Perkins St.

CHRISTMAS PARTY: Christmas songs and festivities

Contributions to be donated to the
Committee of Responsibility to aid in
the restoration of severely injured
Vietnamese children.

GIFT EXCHANGE: Gifts of $1.00 or under to be exchanged.

MHHHHHHHHHHHHHMHHHHHHHHHHHttt

COME AND BRING A FRIEND t

Frances Albrier, President
1621 Oregon St., Berkeley, Ca. 9^703
Phone : 8i|5-lf772

Dorothy M. Comar, Secretary
38i].9 Coolidge Ave., Oakland, Ca. 9ij.602
Phone : 533-02lp.

196

Albrier: Alameda County Democratic Women s Study Club was the oldest

women s club in the county. It existed when I ran for the central
committee. When I was elected to the central committee, they
immediately involved me in the activities of that club. It was
a study club, so that we could study politics and have classes
on politics and political science, and to educate women. That s
why it s called study club. It still exists and I m still a
member.

Chall: And you were president in 67, 68. Was the Golden Gate

Democratic Club meant primarily to be an activist club, then,
for Democrats was it mostly black women of the Bay Area?

Albrier: No, it was a mixed club, but it was for housewives to corral
housewives and women like that, working women, into politics.
To educate them and give them an idea of the workings and structure
of politics and the party. Because a great many women didn t
know who was a central committeeman, who was a state committeeman,
and who were the officers in the state committee, who were
elected who were congressmen and who were assemblymen.

Chall: That s a big job.

Albrier: And who were senators. Who supported the president. Some women
had no idea about politics, only what they learned in school, and
then they dropped it. They took up their vocations and their
home life, and left politics to the men. After the Depression,
people had more time and became interested in what this was all
about. We needed clubs and organizations to get these women into
so they could learn the mechanism of running the country and their
part in it. Because we all felt that someday women would step in
and take over some of these offices themselves in order to save
their children and homes through politics.

Chall: Have you any idea about what time that was that you organized
the Twentieth Century Democratic Club? Let s see, that was
probably late forties, early fifties. And the Golden Gate
Democratic Club?

Albrier: And the first beginning of the CDC.

Chall: And the Golden Gate Democratic Club was what? An early CDC club?

Albrier: No, it was later.

Chall : Later?

Albrier: Yes. About three years later, or four.

196a

Chall: I see. Maybe about 1958?

Albrier: 1958. The CDC needed more clubs. They encouraged us to organize
more Democratic clubs and get the Democrats interested in a
club organized into a club. They could take up the issues on
legislation and everything through these clubs, and have more
people.

Chall: Then they also would have delegates to their endorsing conventions
for determining the candidates too, which would be important.

Albrier: Yes. That was the idea.

Chall: Speaking of the CDC, 1 notice that in 1956 that seems to be
the year that you were very, very busy politically [chuckles]
you were the treasurer of the Seventh Congressional District CDC
club.

Albrier: Yes.

Minorities and the California Democratic Council

Chall: But the CDC has been criticized over the years, (and I think it

was from the very beginning), because it didn t have enough black
representation. It was claimed that there weren t enough minorities
of any kind, black or Mexican, in the CDC, in the membership and
certainly in the leadership. Wayne Amerson, who felt rather
strongly about that, claims that eventually the blacks organized
something called the Minority Group Conference, and then later
on a Negro political action association, simply because they felt
left out of the CDC.* Can you give me any background on
minorities in the CDC as you saw it?

Albrier: The CDC was organized not for blacks or whites. It was organized
for Democrats and the election of Democratic candidates.

Chall: Yes, that s right.

*Interview with A. Wayne Amerson, Northern California and its
Challenges to a Negro in the Mid-1900s, Regional Oral History
Office, University of California, Berkeley, 1974. Courtesy The
Bancroft Library.

197

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

It took them, I think, three or four years before they became
interested in backing issues of the state. Governor Pat Brown
was one of the officers that stressed those ideas and injected
into the CDC that they were responsible for getting the people
concerned in the issues of the state. And issues that could be
remedied by state laws. They didn t take any time on who they
were electing.

A great many times when I went to the CDC meetings, they
would ask me if I would run for certain offices, and I would say
no, because I didn t feel I had the time, and I had my family, and
it cost a great deal of money the party didn t have any money for
expenses. You were on your own. You had to pay for your own
expenses. A lot of times at the CDC conventions, you paid your
own expenses because your club didn t have enough money to send
over one delegate. That one person was the president and the
other people went on their own because they were interested
and they wanted to see what was going on.

There weren t enough black people who were attending the CDC
at that time to elect you. You had to have friends of other races
to elect you at the time. Usually, they put up their own friends
from their own districts, because they had more clubs. Although
there was some discrimination and they didn t appoint blacks
at times but that was the reason.

I see. It was just a matter of numbers and cost.

That s right.

And cost. Now the black clubs didn t have the

They didn t have the money to put behind

money to put into CDC.

candidates, to contribute to candidates who were running.

All that we had were the votes. We had the masses of people
who were not interested in politics, the masses of workers, like
through the unions. We had to ring the doorbells and get them
interested. It was not until then that we could demand that we
be elected to some offices, or that they would have to ask us for
our information on how we stood on issues.

Chall: That took a while.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Do you recall the Minority Group Conference and the Negro Political
Action Association? Were they here?

Albrier: I recall the minority conference, because that was called by
Dr. Carlton Goodlett every year.

198

Chall: Oh yes, I see a conference. It really wasn t a club, solely.

Albrier: No, it was a conference of leaders and interested persons through
out the Bay Area to discuss the issues affecting the black people.

Chall: I recall seeing that material in your scrapbook. Were those
effective?

Albrier: Yes.

[end tape 7, side 1; begin tape 7, side 2]

Berkeley Politics:
Board

Electing Blacks to City Council and School

Chall: Now we can talk about the Berkeley political scene Berkeley

politics. That s really where you spent quite a bit of effort.
As I see it, it took from about sometime in the thirties until
about 1961 before you got a black candidate on the city
council, even though you tried many times. That was when
Wilmont Sweeney got on the council and Roy Nichols onto the
Berkeley school board. Of course, Byron Rumford had been in the
assembly since 48, and that was an important position.

Were you active in the Berkeley Interracial Committee that
was started in the forties, which I guess, tried to get both
the white and the black communities together for various social
issues? Did you take part in that? I understand D.G. Gibson was
somewhat active in it; helped start it.

Albrier: I can t remember the Berkeley Interracial Committee.

Chall: How about the Berkeley Project? I don t really know what that
was. I just have its name here.

Albrier: I don t remember. They had any number of committees and

organizations that came up afterwards in those years. It took
us a number of years to organize. I endorsed and backed and
worked for any number of blacks to run for city council before
Sweeney ran. There was Tom Berkley who ran p-947 ] }
Lionel Wilson who ran [1953], and I ran in 1939.

Chall: Leon J. Richardson was a write-in vote for mayor in 1943. Was
he black?

Albrier: No.

199

Chall: Then Roy Nichols tried once, too, to get on the city council.

Albrier: Roy Nichols ran once, for city council.

Chall: That s right in 1959. Ura Harvel, for the school board in 1953.

Albrier: Yes, Ura Harvel ran for school board.

Chall: I noticed on the literature here that I got out of your scrapbook
that these people had Lionel Wilson, Ura Harvel good backing in
the black community. There just weren t enough of you, I guess,
to swing the vote.

Albrier: No. And we didn t have an organization that could campaign in
the hill area, to do precinct work. That was one of the things
that started the CDC to start the clubs back in those early years
to be able to organize and encourage people to do precinct work,
to be precinct workers, to get citizens registered to vote.
That s how we got to people without money in the party, the
Democratic party, supporting Roosevelt. Because people were
interested in him and we were able to get precinct workers.

Chall: They got out and worked.

Albrier: Yes, even if they just took their block. They would do that.

I remember the party needed money so badly it was the last term
that he ran. They said, well, we don t want large contributors
to the party. The party would owe to those contributors . We want
the people to contribute. That was one reason why we organized
clubs and got people into the clubs. Those who weren t able to
take a precinct, would take their block. Everybody contributed
a dollar, just a dollar, to the campaign for the election of
Roosevelt, as president. That s how money was raised throughout
the country. I think in the Bay Area nearly everybody contributed.
I know I had children contributing their quarter. They wanted
to get into the picture.

Chall: The early Dollars for Democrats movement.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: So when it came to electing people like Wilson and Harvel, and that
was in 1953, it was a try, I guess, because it was worth trying.

Albrier: It was a try, yes, to see how far we advanced and how far we were
organizing, getting a candidate elected. It was the forerunner
of what s happened today.

200

Chall: The disappointment at losing was not as great as it might have
been, because you knew what you were up against. You knew that
you were simply making an effort to see how far you could go?

Albrier: Yes. One way, too whenever any of those persons came up and
wanted to run and felt they wanted to be a candidate for any
thing like the city council or the board of education it kept
that interest up. It kept the people s interest up that someday
they would be candidates they would win an election.

Chall: It took another seven years after 1961 before Ron Dellums got on
the council. That was 1968, so it took quite a while before you
got another black on the council. Then, with the elections of
D Army Bailey, Ira Simmons, Ron Dellums, Wilmont Sweeney, and
the others, did it become an issue not so much about getting a
black person on the council but which black person? Was there a
division over what Berkeley people called the radicals? Was that
a problem in your community, since many of those on the so-called
radical slate were black?

Albrier: Time changes things. People change. The black community had

changed with its youth. The young people felt that the time had
come when we should send some blacks into these offices, like
the council, Congress. The blacks had supported [Jeffrey] Cohelan
for any number of years and he had made an excellent congressman.
He had been interested in all of the community. But they felt
the time had come now when they should have a black in if they
could. That was the type of spirit that pervaded throughout
the community that we should have a black voice who was close to
us, who knew the trials and who knew what the black people were
thanking, who could speak for them.

Then, through that change, it was the change through the
years that a great many whites felt. The young white people felt
the same way. They had combined and formed coalitions and had had
different conferences and studies in homes and churches. They felt
that they d like to join. It was time that we should have more
than whites. The black community, with their help, would be
able to get black persons into these offices.

And that was the beginning of Dellums when he first ran for
city council. It was in the days that OEO [Office of Economic
Opportunity] came up. OEO the training and skills and organization
work under OEO~it was all these young people who had obtained
jobs and positions in that government organization. It made a
change in the type of thinking and a change in those young people.
They were the ones who decided that we should have a black city
councilman. Dellums was interested and versatile was interested
in politics; so they chose him to run for city council.

201

Albrier: Then they decided they should have a black congressman. There
were then enough black people and enough black voters, with
friendly white voters, who would like to see that change of
having a black congressman to represent people there. So they
decided to put in Dellums. It just goes to show you that as the
years go by, the thinking changes. And time changes, and people
will change. I m sure if the older people like my grandmother
had been alive, they would have welcomed the change. They
predicted that the time would come when the time was right, these
changes would be.

Chall: As long as you re prepared to do something about it, you re prepared
when the opportunity comes.

Albrier: That you be prepared. So, through the years, the Roosevelt

years, and the years of the pioneers in politics, they had already
laid the groundwork for councilmen, and congressmen, and assembly
men to be elected.

Chall: You were not upset then with the change from, let s say, a

moderate black like Byron Rumford to more radical blacks like
Ron Dellums, or D Army Bailey, or Ira Simmons this didn t
bother you any? Did it bother other people in the black community
as it bothered some whites? I don t know whether they cared so
much whether blacks were elected, but they were concerned about the
so-called radical turn.

Albrier: There s one thing about the radicals that I m deeply concerned
about. That is, I feel, and a great many of the black people
feel, that there are people who are not genuinely interested
in our condition, but they use our condition to further their
own policies. For instance, it s groups that have been educated
in America to do that to get among minority groups of people
who have suffered through discrimination and oppression, being
without jobs, and to rally them around against these things in
order to put over their ideas of what they want not because
they love us or they re so much interested, but they re using
our condition to further their radical ideas and to get their
candidates elected.

Chall: I know you felt that about the Communist party and radicals of

the fifties, and thirties and forties, but I just wondered whether
you consider some of these black persons who were on the council
to be not interested so much in the community?

Albrier: No, not on the council.

202

Chall: You re not putting D Army Bailey and Ira Simmons in that category,
are you?

Albrier: No, D Army Bailey I don t know so much about Ira Simmons I

haven t talked to him as much as D Army Bailey. D Army Bailey
was considered to be a radical, but he hid behind that idea of
being a radical in order to educate people to the violent means of
these things and the violent thinking and what might happen. I
don t think he was as radical as he appeared to be.

The Fair Housing Referendum

Chall: As people thought he was. Let me check with you about this whole
matter of the Berkeley open housing referendum. In 1961, after
Wilmont Sweeney and Zack Brown got on the council and formed a
majority with Arthur Harris and Bernice May and Jack Kent, they
put through an open housing ordinance, and it was immediately
challenged. So there was a referendum fair housing referendum
in 1963.

First the council, before it put up the ordinance on open
housing, had appointed a large citizens committee to study the
issue. Were you on that citizens committee to study discrimination
in housing? There were only eighteen persons on it, but there
were two black women. I wasn t sure whether you were one of them
or not.

Albrier: No, I wasn t. I remember the committee, but I wasn t on the
committee. I attended some of their meetings.

Chall: Then, when the referendum had to come to a vote, there were some
organizations .

Albrier: I think from one of those papers that I gave you had the pictures
of people on that housing leaflet.

Chall: Yes, I have that. According to this is Wayne Amerson I think
according to him, the overall organization to pass that ordinance
was the Berkeley Political Action Committee for Fair Housing.
Then there was a Negro cooperating organization which was known
as the Committee for Fair Housing. Charles Wilson was its chair
man.

Albrier: Yes, I was on that committee.
Chall: You were on that committee.

203

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Now, that must have been a hard-working committee. You were
committed to getting that referendum passed. It almost did,
actually. Was there a strong feeling of disappointment when that
failed in the black community?

Albrier: Yes. That was a committee and an issue that was very deep, and it
brought people out, and their concerns. It took a person who was
committed to justice and what was right to stand up. We found
many of our friends whom we thought were committed, who just
couldn t use their names for fair housing. They wouldn t let their
names be used.

Chall: Mostly white?

Albrier: Yes. It brought a lot of disappointment to us because we were so
sure that any number of them would help back this committee with
their names, but they felt that they couldn t.

Chall: I see. So that the over-all umbrella committee, the Berkeley
Political Action Committee for Fair Housing, didn t represent
everybody .

Albrier: No.

Chall: That was followed a year later by Proposition 14 on the state
ballot open housing, the Rumford Bill, which also lost. The
black community must have had strong feelings at that time about
such matters. How, considering your ability to look ahead and
not get bitter, how did you feel about the losing of those two
issues?

Albrier: I felt that in time we would win them. It took us twenty years
to get the Fair Employment Practice Committee that FEP bill
passed twenty years. Every year, we d go after it. One time
we d have it on the ballot; get it on the ballot and get enough
signatures, and we d lose. We finally began to grow and grow,
and educate and got the commitment of the party behind a Fair
Employment Practices Committee. When we brought it up, Pat Brown
was to be governor. That was one of the things he promised us
if he would be governor, he would see that we d have a Fair
Employment Practice Committee which he did.

Chall: Yes, he did.

204

Albrier: Even Oregon. I think Oregon had more prejudiced people than we
had in California, we thought. Even the state of Oregon passed
a Fair Employment Practice Act.

Chall: Earlier?

Albrier: Yes, before California did.

Chall: So you felt that in time there would be open housing.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Is there? Has it happened, really, yet? Is there really open
housing? It s on the books; it s legal, but is it open?

Albrier: It s being developed very well. TV spots give a lot on it,
which has re-educated a lot of people who believe in justice
who never thought much about it. They re beginning to question
themselves on how they stood. A great many of them said, "Now
if I was in a black s place and wanted to rent a house, I would
hate to know that they didn t rent to me because I was black."
It s a matter of education. This whole thing of discrimination
has come up through a period of years from one generation to the
other. It s going to take that to tear it down. That s one of
the things that I tell the young people that my grandmother
instilled in me: that it s going to take time to tear these
things down, but it will come down. You must have patience.

Chall: And you ve got to work for it.
Albrier: And commitment.
Chall: And commitment.

Albrier: I ve seen a great many of those things. I ve seen a great many
young women, young black women, have jobs that I was turned down
on. They re in and they re handling them. Those doors have been
opened. I feel eventually that many, many other doors will be
opened.

205

School Integration

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

What about school integration? Your children were out of school,
I suppose, by the time that moved in. Have you been following
it?

Yes, but I was active in the PTA.
school integration.

I was active in that fight for

Have you any feelings about how it*s turned out?
certainly the earliest pioneer.

Berkeley was

Berkeley, I think, was the leader, especially of the busing.
Although we didn t have the problem of busing as some of the
larger cities had. I think it s turned out quite well. I think
it s changed things. I see a great many interracial teachers in
the Berkeley schools. I think we re getting along to the idea
of one world. Who is that who wrote One World?

Wendell Willkie.

Wendell Willkie. I often think of Wendell Willkie s one world,
because I read his book. I have it somewhere around here. I
kept that book.

Community Leaders

Chall: It was a forerunner, wasn t it?

I wanted to ask you something about a few of the people who
must have been leaders on both sides of these issues in terms of
black representation, integration, are the best words, I guess,
for the two things. In terms of some of the black women, I picked
up a few names. There are probably many others. There was a
Mrs. Chamberlain, who apparently helped run Wilmont Sweeney s
campaign in 1961, and somebody named Esther Autio who ran
Roy Nichols campaign that same year for school board. Are they
members of the black community? Have they been active politically?

Albrier:

Chall:

No, they were members who were interested in those campaigns and
ran the office campaigns.

What about Vivian Osborne Marsh? I know that she was active in
some of the women s organizations that we ll be talking about

206

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :

Albrier:

next time. She was also an active member of the Republican
party. Served on the Republican central committee.

She was active in the Republican party and was active in her
sorority. I forget which that was Alpha Kappas, I think. She
ran herself for city council, twice.

Oh, did she? I didn t know that.

Yes, and wasn t elected.

I ve never seen that name on the list.

She ran, but she s mostly active in fraternal groups now, and has
been for a long time.

The fact that she was an active member of the Republican County
Central Committee and you were an active woman member of the
Democratic County Central Committee did that create any friction
betwen you, or did you feel that it s better to have each of you
in a different party?

No. I never had any friction between the parties. I always felt
and said to those who were in the Republican party, you do your
best in your party and to fight for the things and the people you
feel are against discrimination and segregation, and I will do
it in the Democratic party. That way, we can have a wonderful
country. I didn t feel that all Negro people should belong to
the Democratic party or all should belong to the Republican party.
I thought we should belong to both parties and give our best to
those parties we belonged to or chose to belong to.

I notice she backed Lionel Wilson when he was running for city
council, so you moved together when you could.

Yes.

Frankie Jones I see her picture every now and then,
active.

She was

Frankie Jones was very active in her church first, Beth Eden
Baptist Church, which was active. They had organizations and
committees in that church community organizations of interest to
the people under Reverend Hubbard. After she retired from being
active in her church, she became active in the Democratic party
in the Seventeenth Assembly District club, that was chaired by
Leo Brown.

207

Albrier: Then, when the president of the NAACP Reverend Stripp could

no longer serve as president of NAACP because of his activities
at the university, Frankie was chosen to be the NAACP president
of Berkeley. At that time, Berkeley had set up its own NAACP
organization. She served many years as their president. She was
very active in NAACP.

Chall: And Mabel Howard? Who was she?

Albrier: Mabel Howard came on the scene when model cities were being
organized. She took on the BART [Bay Area Rapid Transit]
fight, on undergrounding. She works a lot with the interracial
groups who fight against racial discrimination. She s known
as Mama Howard. [Laughter] But she s new on the scene. She
came in during the war years.

Chall: Tarea Pittman, I know she s been around for a long time.

Albrier: Tarea Pittman is a Calif ornian.

Chall: NAACP and she worked in the Democratic party.

Albrier: She came in to work in the Democratic party when Byron Rumford
was elected. For many years, she was western regional chairman
of NAACP.

Chall: Very active people.

Clinton White I saw his name, I think on one of these
flyers. Attorney Clinton White. Are there two Clinton Whites
in Berkeley an attorney and a painter?

Yes, there s a painter, Clinton White. I think Attorney Clinton
White lives in Oakland. Yes, he s judge now.

That s right. So I guess it s probably the painter who has been
active politically in Berkeley. Has he been active also in the
Coop movement?

Albrier:
Chall :

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Yes.

Has he been an effective leader in the community here?
know him work with him?

Did you

Yes, he s very active. Clinton White was very active in the Coop
and very active in the labor movement, professional labor movement,
for the benefit of minority groups. For instance, he belongs to
the Minority Conference of Contractors that always tries to see

208

Albrier: that on each large job, they have an affirmative action program,
so tht minority contractors will be able to get some of the work.
He also is a member of the YMCA and was the chairman of the South
Berkeley YMCA, which was instrumental in getting a new South
Berkeley YMCA building on Russell and California.

Chall: He has been a hard working citizen in the community. Some people
just stick with it, don t they?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I have the name Potts. I think there are two of them: Lillian
and what s her husband s name?

Albrier: Weilan.

Chall: They ve been active a long time?

Albrier: Yes, they ve been active for a long while. Lillian Potts was
active with me in politics. She became the club president.

Chall: Which club?

Albrier: Twentieth Century. And was active in CDC. She was, and is still
very active, in the Northern California NAACP branches.

Chall: And her husband has been active, too?

Albrier: He s not as active as she is. He serves as a good member, a
dedicated member.

Chall: How about Leo Brown, who served with you quite a while on the CDC
committee and in the Democratic party?

Albrier: Leo Brown has served in many organizations, community organizations.
He s now president of the Berkeley Neighborhood Legal Services,
and deeply committed to that organization. He s done a great
deal of work in building it up. In former years, he was active in
the Twentieth Century Club and in several black organizations that
came up and went down. He s active in the NAACP and many other
community clubs and committees. He s one of Berkeley s most
dedicated citizens for community progress.

[Interruption by ringing doorbell. Mrs. Albrier s daughter,
Anita Black came to visit.]
[end tape 7, side 2]

209

The Effect of Electing a Black Man to the School Board

[Interview 8, March 1, 1978]
[begin tape 8, side 1]

Chall: I wanted to pick up just a little from what we were talking about
the last time, because I think there are a couple of questions
I didn t ask you.

When the black leadership finally succeeded in getting
Roy Nichols onto the school board, what did you hope to gain
by having this person finally at least one black on the school
board?

Albrier: The black community and the organizations felt that to have an
outstanding minister and a person who had done so much work in
education, especially with black children, and who knew their
problems, and had been able to communicate with them and receive
from them their ideas about their problems in school, would
benefit not only Berkeley but the whole nation. We felt very
much elated in getting him on the board of education in Berkeley,
especially at the time when we were thinking of desegregating
the schools.

He was also an active person in NAACP. He knew their
objectives of education throughout the country, for black
children and the elimination of racial prejudice in schools.

Chall: He was not only a well-known minister but he was a well known
civil rights leader, is that it?

Albrier: That s right.

Chall: Did the white liberals who were on the school board reflect, then,
what the black community wanted, in the schools? Were you able
to work with them?

Albrier: Yes, they were elated at the election, too. The white liberals
helped elect Dr. Nichols to the school board. Naturally, they
were just as proud and happy about it as we were because they
could see that, through him, they would be able to open up some
of the avenues in education to Berkeley to benefit not only
Berkeley, but the nation.

Chall: In a sense, getting Roy Nichols on the board was like getting
Wilmont Sweeney on the city council.

210

Albrier: On the city council, yes.

Chall: It allowed the liberals to move in the direction in which they had
hoped to move.

Albrier: The idea in having someone on the board and city council was that
the community felt someone was in a key political spot who looked
through their eyes; who could see and know their thoughts, their
ideas, and their ambitions as citizens.

Chall: Were you on any of the committees that were set up to consider

integration, like the Staats Committee and the Hadsell Committee?
This was for school integration.

Albrier: I was on the Staats Committee for a while, at the beginning of it.

Chall: I don t know very much about it. My understanding is that they were
concerned with an approach to integrating the schools. Was that
it? The Staats Committee?

Albrier: Yes. The Staats Committee was to open up the avenues and through
educational activities promote the idea of integration not only
for black teachers and black people on the board of education,
but other minorities as well.

The older citizens in Berkeley, especially the liberal ones,
have always had the idea of making Berkeley a model city, along
those lines. In the line of communication with different people,
different races, because of the university. We have been very
fortunate in having the university that has helped do these things
through their liberal teachers, instructors, and professors at the
university, especially presidents like Dr. [Benjamin] Wheeler,
[Clark] Kerr and those presidents of the university who were
liberal.

Chall: In your day, then, you found that Dr. Kerr and the other professors
really got into the town and helped out, rather than just staying
in their own ivory towers, as they re often accused of doing.

Albrier: Yes. A great many of them were members and were active in the

Democratic party like Dr. Max Radin and others there who had those
liberal broad views and ideas about people and education.

Chall: I notice that Carol Sibley was honored by the National Council of

Negro Women in 1973 as an Outstanding Woman of Northern California.
She, along with you, was one of nine women honored. From this
list, my guess is she might have been the only white woman. Do
you want to look at that list, because I thought that was an
interesting honor. You might tell me about her.

211

Albrier: Yes, she was.

Chall: Why would Carol Sibley be so honored?

ALbrier: Carol Sibley was honored for her liberal views on black women and
on education for black children. She was one of the hard workers
and one of those who worked very diligently to desegregate and
integrate the schools. She worked very hard to see that the schools
were integrated, every one of them, with black and white children,
so that those children would grow up knowing each other and so
that they would be able to converse with each other. White
children of Berkeley would not go out of the city of Berkeley or
the state of California, not knowing anything about the black race
because they would have attended an integrated school because
they would have gone to school with those children. Not only the
black children, but there were the Spanish children, and Mexican
children, Japanese and Chinese. The communities were segregated
which caused the segregated schools.

In the black community were the Spanish children, the Chinese
and Japanese children. Mrs. Sibley was dedicated to that idea of
ending discrimination in the schools by desegregating them. That s
why she was so honored.

Chall: Was she the most valuable white woman leader, then, in this whole
integration movement?

Albrier: Yes, she was. At the time she became the board of education director,
she was elected to the board of education by members of the black
community as well as the white, so she could finish her job. That
director on the board of education would have to influence the
superintendent of schools as well as others on the board, and she
was a person that we felt was able to do so because of her
dedication.

Chall: She had worked for integration prior to her being on the board?
Albrier: Yes, she had.

212

Busing as a Means of Integration

Chall: Have you had any second thoughts about this whole subject of

busing children in school districts to achieve integration? That
is, not just Berkeley but big cities like Boston, or Los Angeles,
and Oakland?

Albrier: Berkeley was a little different than the larger cities, because

we re not so far apart. For instance, West Berkeley is not so far
apart from North Berkeley; it would only take a few minutes to
take children from West Berkeley to North Berkeley, or from
East Berkeley to South Berkeley to school. But in the larger
cities, it creates some difficulties, even in San Francisco, to
bus children across town, across the city, and to other districts
where they re not familiar and they don t know much about each other.

In Berkeley, the children had a chance to meet with each other
because they met with each other when they got to high school. The
younger ones were often with the older ones, and they were more
used to meeting each other and having activities with each other,
before the busing took place. Due to its being a smaller city,
it was easier to do so in Berkeley than it was in the large cities
like Chicago and New York, where it s miles between the South
and North, and the West and the East, and where people live their
whole lifetimes in the East or the West part of the city, and never
see the persons living in the other part of the city. So they
become strangers and they don t know each other; it s hard for
them to communicate. Besides the different races and nationalities
made it very difficult, and still make it very difficult, for the
larger cities than we had in Berkeley.

Chall: Is there any answer, do you think, to integrating people, then, if
it s almost impossible to get it done through the schools? How
can it be achieved?

Albrier: The only answer to it is education. We have to educate people to
communicate with other people. I think with the younger
generation coming up, they are studying languages and they will be
able to communicate with other people and understand their motives
and their ideas through education.

Chall: Even if they can t mingle with them in the schools?

Albrier: Even if they can t mingle with them in the schools. Indirectly,
in all of the schools, one time or another, they all do maet each
other and communicate with each other. For instance, a city may
have a band of the schools of the city, and they may take a black
child from the East, an Italian child from over that side of the

213

Albrier: town or community, and they re all there in the band, or they re
on the football team, or they r re in other games, and are able to
meet with each, other and to know each otherand respect each other.
People are beginning now to be able to communicate with each
other and understand each other through different organizations,
even through politics that s bringing people together. As the
masses of people become interested in politics and getting into
politics and community organizations, then they meet other people.
Then they begin to talk to other people and exchange ideas with
other people; and that s an educational process.

Chall: So the requirements in political parties to integrate the conventions
and the clubs is one move to knowing each other.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: I take it then, that you don t necessarily despair because school
busing in large cities seems to be almost an impossibility.

Albrier: No. I feel another way will be found out for people to get

together and to know each other. One way people have been able
to get together and know each other and it s a bad way and that
was through the wars. Through our armies and navies. Those are
institutions that are helping to get people together and helping
them to know each other; communicate with each other, and under
stand each other and understand each other s ways of living and
their history and their participation in the world.

214

VI CLUBS AND CIVIC ORGANIZATIONS

Integrating White Women s Groups

The Berkeley League of Women Voters

Chall: Now, I wanted to find out from you something about your work in the
women s clubs. I thought I d start first with those clubs or
organizations that were for women that you seem to have integrated.
I m not sure you did it on your own, but that seems to have been what
might have happened. I thought I d ask you a little about the
League of Women Voters. I think I read somewhere in your scrapbook
that you had been one of the first black women in the League of
Women Voters in Berkeley. Is that accurate?

Albrier: Yes. During the thirties, the twenties and the thirties, there

were no black women in any of the white clubs that were interested
in communities and activities of people, because it was a pattern
of segregation. It was a pattern of segregation in the biggest
institution in the United States, and that s the church. Naturally,
these clubs came down with the same pattern. They were clubs for
white people, white women only. They didn t open their doors up
to black women.

I think the reason was that they felt that the black people
were not yet educated enough to participate in the clubs. Out
West, they never saw a black institution like Tuskegee or Howard
University, or Hampton University, or Fisk University, where there
were hundreds of black students and black teachers and white
teachers who were teaching in these schools.

So, in the League of Women Voters, there were no black
members, until President Roosevelt ran and a great many black people
got in on the scene to see that he was elected, because he promised
to open the doors to so many things for all of the citizens of the
United States. It was the Depression that came along, and people

215

Albrier: were idle, and people were disturbed, and they began to think

about things more. At that time, labor came on the scene and they
were in a turmoil because they had discriminated. The CIO had
taken in large numbers of men from different crafts. The AFL
was the one that was the most discriminatory. They had separate
unions. Where they had unions, they were separate. But the CIO
came along and started taking in everybody, so that began to make
other people think. It made the AFL officers think that soon the
CIO would outnumber them because they were taking in all of the
blacks. All those different situations and conditions were going on
at the time when Roosevelt was in his second term.

The League of Women Voters began to expand . There was one
lady in the league that worked in the Democratic party with me,
and she always gave me ideas to bring up in the central committee.
I can t think of her name right now, but I will think of it.

Anyway, she worked with the League of Women Voters. At that
time, there were women like Mrs. [Ruth] Scheer and other women in
the league. She had the program of children. She was to find out
all the activities and needs of children in the Bay Area. One of
the needs of children had to do with the newsboy. The newsboys
a great many of the mothers had reported to her that their children
didn t have insurance. The newspapers were not insuring the news
boys who were carrying the papers and delivering the papers. Any
number of them had gotten hurt and there wasn t any insurance for
them.

She wanted to take it up through the league to see that these
newsboys became insured. She asked me if I would join her committee.
I informed her that the league does not take in black members.
She said, "That s done away with; they will now, because I m going
to suggest that you be a member and be a member of my committee."
She brought it up to the board and told them, "Now, Mrs. Albrier
s a member and has been elected to the Alameda County Democratic
Central Committee. She s the only woman on that committee. I
think it s time we open our doors to black members." So they
accepted me as a member. I became the first [black] member of
the League of Women Voters.

Chall: That s quite a story. In Berkeley, they actually did not take
in members who were black? If you had wanted to submit your
membership and pay dues, could they have kept you out without
even a discussion?

Albrier: If I had submitted my membership at that time, I don t think I
think there were enough liberal women members of the board to
have voted it through, but before then, there weren t.

216

Chall: I see. You couldn t have become a member.

Albrier: No. You see, we had the League of Colored Women Voters in action
at the same time. They met at the Linden Street YWCA. At that
time, even the YWCAs were separate.

Chall: Yes. That s on my list after the League of Women Voters.

Albrier: A great many of the black women didn t think or want to belong to
the white league because of their attitude.

Chall: Was the way that the League of Colored Women Voters studied issues
the same as the way the League of Women Voters, which was then all
white, studied issues?

Albrier: Yes, they were similar, but the Colored Women s League studied

discriminatory issues, especially in labor and other things that
they thought were discriminatory. They used their power and their
organization to fight against it, or to protest. For instance,
there were no black nurses in the city and county hospitals and
the league took that problem up.

Chall: Did you go on this woman s committee that dealt with children, then,
in the Berkeley League of Women Voters?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: You worked with the committee?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How were you accepted on the committee and in the league?

Albrier: I was accepted with open arms, and very graciously accepted by

the members in the league. There was one thing that happened in
the league at the Berkeley Women s City Club. They were very
discriminatory no blacks they had no blacks invited to eat in
their dining room. Nobody who had ever used their dining room
had ever invited any black women to the dining room. But the
League of Women Voters had members in that club. When they
didn t finish their agenda, they would finish it at lunch.
They would have lunch in the dining room. Whoever it was at the
time said, "Well, I m going to take Mrs. Albrier as my guest to
lunch." They could bring a guest. And they did. They took me
as a guest for a long time. They didn t seem to object as long as
there was only one.

Their black employees were elated because they saw a black
woman in the dining room, eating, because they knew their policies.

217

Albrier: Afterwards, there was another lady that joined, named Mrs. Margaret
Nottage the league.

Chall: A black woman?

Albrier: Yes. When she came into the dining room as a guest to eat, the
members did not protest at that time, but they did to some of
their members and told them they knew the policy: that they did
not open their dining rooms to black people. The league told
them it was women in the league like Mrs. [Bernice] May and
Mrs. Scheer and those types of women who did not believe in
discrimination. It was one of the things that they were protesting
all the time, and that they were dedicated to destroy, if they
could discrimination against citizens, whatever citizens they
were.

When it came time for the league to renew their contract to
meet in the building, they would not renew their contract. They
felt it was because they were having mixed races in the league,
that used their dining room.

Chall: So the club would not renew the league s contract?

Albrier: No. So the club went to the Town and Gown Clubhouse to meet
after that.

Chall: The league did.

Albrier: Those are some of the mild discriminatory policies that the white
dedicated friends of blacks in Berkeley fought against. We had
to fight for each other to break that down.

Chall: That was in the forties.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: How many black women would you say came into the league during
those years?

Albrier: There weren t very many who came into the league. Afterwards,

there were, I think, about seven or eight who joined the league.

Chall: Were any of them ever on the league board? Were you?

Albrier: I don t remember whether any of them came on the board but they
became members. They were active in some of the different
committees, in different departments and studies.

218

Chall: The league s methods of going about achieving its goals are

different from any that you had in other organizations. They
study at length issues before they take a stand and they have a
consensus on that study before they take a stand. You were more
of an activist and had been an active Democrat. How did you
feel about the way in which the league achieved its goals for the
changes in government, social structures, and changes in laws?
How about its non-partisanship with respect to candidates?

Albrier: Beginning in the forties, when women became more active in

politics, that opened up the doors of the league to become more
active on issues in the different cities in which they lived.
Then they opened up their membership, which took in other women
of other races citizens. And they took in all the citizens who
wished to join and become active. They encouraged them to do so.
When they did that, the different citizens of different races
served on different committees and could serve as officers.
Unfortunately, not many of them felt they had the time to give
to serve as an officer. To work in the League of Women Voters,
it takes women who have time. A great many of the women who
became members were members who were employed. They did not have
the time to give what was required. They would attend meetings,
especially in the evenings, and on afternoons when the children
were in school, and that way, the league was able to take in the
different races and groups of women who hadn t been active before.

Chall: Do you feel that the league s method

Albrier: Before, the league was a kind of secluded organization of brilliant
top women in the community.

Chall: In its method of studying and carefully looking at all sides of
an issue before taking a stand, do you consider that a good one
and useful to the community?

Albrier: Yes, definitely. The league has a definite place and has done so
much in the different departments in analyzing government and
setting policy in the government the governments of the cities.
They have been quite an asset because the women in the league
have time to study and do research that a great many of the men
don t have the time to do. They are a great asset all over the
United States and the government. I think they re responsible
for the government being what it is today, and for having such a
variety of activities and a variety of viewpoints in government,
as we have.

219

The Young Women s Christian Association

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall :

Albrier:

Chall:

What about the YWCA here? I came across something in your scrap-
book which indicated that at some time I had to guess at this,
but I thought it was about 1941 that you had a meeting of the
Ladies Auxiliary of the Dining Car Workers Local 456, and you
were the president, when this auxiliary held its first "racial
tea at the Oakland Uptown YWCA." This is an article from the
Post. [May 1, 1965:4]

Then I have something else here, that in February 1941,
there was an annual meeting at the Linden Branch of the YWCA and
you were on the nominating committee. There were other members
of the board I m not sure how many of them were black and
whether it was a mixed board at the time. I was wondering whether
the YWCA here in Berkeley and in Oakland were as segregated as
they were in other parts of the country at that time?

Does that article have a date on it?

The one about the Linden the annual meeting? February 6, 1941.
The other one, with respect to the Ladies Auxiliary, that didn t
have a date because that came out of a long article about you in
the Post of 1965. I think they just mentioned it, but I don t
think I picked it up someplace else.

I ll look again. I think I did see something in your
scrapbook. I just wondered about the YWCA and you.

That first one was 1941?

That was my guess. It may have been earlier.
1941. I know the second one was 1941.

I thought it was

It was in the forties, yes.

The Linden branch was definitely 1941.

One was the Ladies Auxiliary had an affair at the Y.

At the Oakland Uptown Y, it was called.

Does that have a date?

No, that s the one I m not sure about the date. The other one
is the Linden Branch annual meeting. That was 1941. That s for
sure, 1941.

220

Albrier: It must have been 43 or 42.* In Berkeley, there was no YWCA.
We had no YWCA in Berkeley at that time. In Oakland, there was
the main YWCA that s there now, and they re white. And there was
the YWCA for blacks on Linden Street.

Chall: So the Linden Branch was a black branch.

Albrier: The Linden Branch was a branch for the black people.

Chall: Linden Street being where?

Albrier: Linden Street in West Oakland, on Linden Street off Eighth Street.

Chall: West Oakland. Okay, I ve got it.

Albrier: But the Y at that time had mixed members on their board. The
black Y worked with the YWCA, but they had a separate Y for
black people and a separate director. We, in the Y, for many
years, in the thirties when we started out fighting against
discrimination, challenged the Y at every convention that they
had, every national convention. The men did the same thing at
the YMCAs, white and black. There were many white women and
many of our Y members in Oakland, would challenge, with the
blackswhen we went to the national convention the idea of
using the letter C for Christian and being discriminatory, until
they broke and discarded their national articles in their
constitution and by-laws that said white only.

Chall: How long did that take? Do you recall?

Albrier: It took a good many years. Then the YWCA in Oakland the director
came back, Miss [Helen] Grant was her name and she was the one
who fought so vigorously against discrimination. It was always
her dream that we would have an interracial Y in the Bay Area.
Berkeley did not have a Y at that time a YW. So, when she came
back, she opened the doors of the YWCA to activities of black
people. They could rent the Y for parties, meetings, and like
that. Before they couldn t, because those doors were closed due
to their racial policy.

*Mrs. Albrier was close. A recheck of her scrapbook established
the date of the Auxiliary s tea. It was reported in the newspaper
edition of August 26, 1944.

221

Chall: So it was when Helen Grant came back, you were able to have your
Ladies Auxiliary meeting?

Albrier: The Ladies Auxiliary was going to have a tea. I helped break down
that discrimination and open the doors of the Y and show them
that they had discarded that policy.

Chall: That was after Helen Grant came back?

Albrier: Yes. It was about two years after, before they did it, because
we were about two years old, then.

We had our first annual tea of the Auxiliary because we were
just at the time it was done, we weren t organized. The
Auxiliary wasn t organized as firmly.

Chall: So that was the early time of your presidency, and also of the
Y s new policy. So that was a really important occasion.

Albrier: After we had the tea, then other women s organizations, blacks,
came, you know, and procured the building their large rooms
for teas and meetings, that they wanted to have.

Chall: Did black women ultimately get onto the YWCA board?

Albrier: Yes, they were on the board before; they could serve on the
board and on committees.

Chall: They just couldn t use the building.

Albrier: There would always be at least one or two black women from the
Linden Street YWCA on the board. That s where you see we were
electing a member from the board.

Chall: Did you serve on the board of the YWCA?

Albrier: No, I never served on the board.

Chall: The nominating committee?

Albrier: Just the nominating committee.

Chall: I guess the Y has come a long way since then. I think I saw that
you were on the South Berkeley Center YMCA Advisory Committee in
74.

Albrier: I am now, yes.

Chall: Are the Ys now completely integrated in a way that s satisfactory?

221 a

Albrier: Yes, I think they are.

The Red Cross

Chall: Now, the Red Cross. You told me about the Red Cross before and

during the war, when you took some classes in I think it was the
Drivers Corps that you did it just as a protest to show them that
you intended to go through the course, but you weren t going to
ask them for any special privileges afterwards. [Laughs]

I notice that later on in the fifties, you were sent as a
delegate to the National Aquatic School for the Berkeley Red Cross,
so I assume there were some changes in the Red Cross.

Albrier: There were changes in the Red Cross as there was in the YWCA. The
Red Cross was very prejudiced. Our army and navy were prejudiced.
We had a black army and a black navy. The men were separated.
They did not stay in the quarters with the whites, and it was
a definitely segregated thing. The Red Cross was too. The Red
Cross was segregated in many of its activities.

When World War II came up, they didn t even want to take
blood from black citizens. That came out at the time when some
people wanted to be active, and who were militant. They called
for blood and they knew that the boys would be needing the blood
and if anything happened over here, the people would need it.
So they offered their blood and they didn t want to take them.
That brought confusion all over the country from the president s
office on down, when that happened when black people were
disqualified and politely turned away and couldn t give their
blood in the Red Cross.

Then the call came that we didn t know what would happen
in this country. We might be bombed. The Red Cross was the key
organization to take care of the people. They wanted as many
people as possible to know first aid because doctors wouldn t
be able to get to you right away, and we needed the first aiders
if we had a bombing, to be qualified to go in, and direct people,
and to get the injured taken care of.

That was when I answered that call. The first call I
answered in the Red Cross I always wanted to belong to the
Motor Corps. I wanted to be able to drive sick people and to
do things like that which needed to be done. To join the Motor
Corps at that time, you had to take the course about how to repair
your automobile in minor ways. You had to know how to change a

222

Albrier: tire or how, at least, to direct someone to do it and how to
put oil in your car, and put water in your battery, and to know
ignition wires and spark plugs and if they were out of order
minor repairs of the car. So I took that course.

Chall: Yes, I remember you told me. [Laughs]

Albrier: I was one of the first women that went in to take the course.
Then that qualified me to work in the Motor Corps. [1942] In
the meantime, they didn t have enough cars donated for me to
drive in the Motor Corps, and they requested that I take the first
aid course while I was waiting.

I took all three first aid courses, even the instructor s
course. By that time, they needed instructors to teach the rank
and file of citizens first aid, because they didn t know what
might happen. They might be bombed. That s when I became an
instructor and started teaching first aid classes to the
citizens. [1941-1944]

I ve seen pictures in your scrapbooks showing you did that.

I taught many first aid classes in the churches. At that time,
everybody thought they should know first aid.

[end tape 8, side 1; begin tape 8, side 2]

What was the Aquatic School?

The Aquatic School was a school where first aid instructors and
others would go to have classes and seminars. It was all over
the United States. Each chapter was to choose a person to go
to this school. They chose me once to go to the Aquatic School
as an instructor. [1951-1953]

Chall: Was that for swimming?

Albrier: First aid, and everything that the Red Cross gives.

Chall: To do with water? Having to do with drowning or water sports?

Albrier: Yes, it s called the Aquatic School, but it had all the other
activities with it.

Chall: Then the Red Cross became fully integrated ultimately, is that it?
Albrier: Yes. Of course now it s fully integrated since then.

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

223

Chall: Were you one of the few, or only black woman that you would see
in this area during your first course?

Albrier: I pioneered the way as being a black woman pioneer in the Red
Cross in those activities.

Chall: When you went off to Aquatic School, did you find other black
women there?

Albrier: Yes, from other states other western states. There were a
few.

Racially Mixed Women s Groups

The Berkeley Women s Town Council

Chall: What about the Berkeley Women s Town Council? You were the

president of that from 72 to 74. That, I gather, is open to
any interested person and includes representatives from women s
clubs, civic organizations, hospitals, and agencies. What does
that mean, the Berkeley Women s Town Council? That is what kind of
organization?

Albrier: The Berkeley Women s Town Council was organized, I think
they re about ten or twelve years old. Anyway, they were
organized to organize women s clubs throughout the city in order
to acquaint each club with the others activities and exchange
ideas and viewpoints.

Your club would register with the Town Council and pay the
dues, and to each meeting they would send a representative of that
club. For instance, I would be the representative of the
Berkeley Senior Center. If the senior center had an affair, a
luncheon or anything, I would announce it. Then I would give
the activities of that center, as its representative. Each club
that is a member of the town council has those privileges to
exchange ideas and their activities with other members, and to
invite other members to their different activities.

Chall: Is that an integrating force in the community?

Albrier: Yes, of club women. They invite all of the women who have club
activities to join the town council. That makes them stronger
the club work in Berkeley and the club activities in Berkeley.

224

Albrier: For instance, we have the Work Recreation and the YWCA. Every
woman who is a candidate or is an elected officer is invited to
become a member of the town council. And they are, because
everyone joins the town council.

Chall: How often do they meet to exchange views?

Albrier: They meet once a month, every month through June; they do not

meet July or August. They start again in September to November;
they do not meet in December.

[Insert from tape 10, side 1]

The Women s International League for Peace and Freedom

Chall: "In 1961, a group of Berkeley housewives ..." This is a

quote from a paper. You can explain to me whether it happened
this way or not. ". . . stormed the office of Representative
Jeffrey Cohelan here today in a demonstration they hope will
grow into a world crusade for disarmament and peace. These
women said they were undefined and unorganized, but they hoped
their efforts would spread across the country and to the women
of Russia. They supported President Kennedy s position in his
speech on peace before the United Nations. Frances Albrier and
Mrs. Allan Temko were spokesmen. Forty-five names are on a
petition bearing excerpts from President Kennedy s UN speech."
What were you doing that day?

Albrier: That was a group of members and women. Most of us belonged to
the organization called the Peace and Freedom

Chall: Peace and Freedom party?

Albrier: Yes. No, it s not a party; it s an organization.

Chall: Is that the Women s International League for Peace and Freedom?

Albrier: Yes. Most of us were members who went to see Congressman Cohelan
and to get his support. At that time, we all were against the
Vietnam War. We thought that war was the wrong type of war for
us to be involved in. We were trying to use our strength against
that war and to promote peace and freedom. We felt, and we knew
then, that if we didn t, we d be destroyed. Because they would
have just what they have now those bombs, neutron bombs, and all
of those bombs that would destroy people, and the nations.

225

Albrier: I read the Bible quite a bit. I know a lot of the Bible, and the
Bible says that man would destroy himself. God would not destroy
him. He would destroy himself. So I always pray that God would
intervene and not let man do it. Because the way it s going now,
it s what he is doing. He s destroying himself in all kinds of
ways: polluting the air, polluting the water; and doing all those
kinds of things because he thinks that he s so wise.

So that s what that group of women was trying to get the
congressmen, and support the congressmen in the peace movement.
And against the Vietnam War. To end it as soon as possible.

Chall : Had you been a member of the Women s International League for
Peace and Freedom very long? When did you join?

Albrier: I had been in a number of years. I forget when I joined. But I d
been in about five or six years. I haven t had time to keep up
with it now; I haven t been active with them lately.

Chall: Were you active during the Vietnam War period when this group
was most active?

Albrier: Yes.

Women, Peace, and Social Change

Albrier: Though I do think that to save the world is going to take the
women of the world. If we could get the women of the world to
get together, all nations, for peace, to end this war syndrome
that they have. The women of all the nations African nations,
European nations, Russia, all because we don t want to see
people destroyed, which they will be.

Chall: Do you think women are more pacifist than men by nature?

Albrier: Yes, I think they can be in a way, and they can be more activist.
They can advocate. I think they can go into the field of
advocacy for anything and succeed at it more than men.

Chall: How come? Why do you think that?

Albrier: I think it s women s make-up and build to save people, to save

lives. Men think of making money, building houses, and nations,
and streams more so than women. Women can see farther. They
have more spiritual feeling and more spiritual sense of history

226

Albrier:

Chall:

and what s happening than men.
they have that gift from God.

They can see farther. I think

When you were active in the NAACP and in politics, and in some
of these other organizations where there were both men and women,
did you find that women were accorded the same consideration of
their views as the men were?

Allbrier: In the NAACP? Yes.

Chall: They were.

Albrier: I think all the men in the NAACP, in their offices, for one

thing, they listened. They listened to women; they didn t bypass
them. They listened to what they said, whether they believed
them or not. Many believed them and tried to help put into effect
what they were trying to do.

Chall: What about the Democratic party?

Albrier: The party? We have all classes in the party, but

Chall: Generally. It might have been different

Albrier: At times, women had to stand up for themselves. The men looked
at them at the party as doing the work, running the offices,
doing the leg work, and they [the men] going into the office.

But they have changed that now since the women have become
more organized and have shown that they wanted to share being in
some of the offices, and controlling the government, and making
the policies of the government. I ve seen that change. That s
one of the changes I ve seen since I ve been active in the party.

Chall: Are you an advocate of the Equal Rights Amendment?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: One of the women whose name I ve run across in the press which
is a rather unusual place for a woman to get to the top was
Charlotte Bass. I ve also seen it spelled Charlotta.

Albrier: Charlotta, yes, Charlotta Bass.

Chall: She was an editor of the California Eagle for many years and
there are very few women editors.

Albrier: She developed that paper in the early years. She went through
the struggles of being a woman and a woman editor.

226a

& Mrs. AlSrier
5* Ai Me &lt;JOP._

Mrs. Frances Albrler, pro
minent Berkeley civic and club
leader, was named this week to
represent Dr. Rosa Gragg of
Washington, D.C., president of
the National Association of
Colored Women s c lubs, as
speaker on the Republican Plat
form Committee at a meeting to
b held Friday, July 10, at 3p.m.
in the Cosmopolitan Room of the
St. Francis Hotel.

As Dr. Gragg s representa
tives, Mrs. Albier will speak on
the proposed amendment to the
U.S. Constitution dealing with
rights of women. Mrs. Albrler
is a former State Legislative
Chairman of the National Asso
ciation of Colored Women s
Clubs.

226b

SAN FRANCISCO

Ne^ro Historical & Cultural Society

Affiliated with the Association for the Study of Negro Life and History

Invites you to attend a
PUBLIC ADDRESS

FORMER EDITOR & PUBLISHER, "CALIFORNIA EAGLE"

SUNDAY AFTERNOON

FEBRUARY 7th, 1965

- 3:00 P.M.

BETHEL A.M.E. CHURCH

916 Laguna Street, San Francisco, California

ADMISSION FREE

The History
of the California Negro s
Fight For Dignity & Equality

(Lecture on the fight for freedom by California Negro Americans

Mrs. Charlotta A. Bass, a graduate of the public schools
of Providence, R.I., attended Pembrook Hall, a college for women,
in Providence; has taken courses in journalism from Columbia
University and the University of California.

Mrs. Bass came to California in 1910 from Rhode Island
and chose as her profession, the finest weapon for helping the
oppressed, the voice of the newspaper. Working from the bottom
of the ladder to the top, she perfected her talents and became a
strong, unfearing voice of and for the people that advanced the
cause of Civil Rights. She became owner and publisher of the
"California Eagle", oldest Negro weekly in the West. She was
one of the first women in the country to hold such a position.

When she changed her political affiliation in 1948 to join
the Independent Progressive Party she became the first Negro
woman to run for the office of Vice President of the United States.
This decision terminated 30 years as a member of the Republican
Party.

Mrs. Bass s fight against segregation has been a constant
one. In the early 1920 s she borrowed the slogan, "Don t Spend
Where You Can t Work" from the "Chicago Whip" and organized
Negro workers to open employment previously closed to minorities
This laid the foundation for the present-day struggle. Outstanding
is the first fight against segregation of Negroes in the Los Angeles
City Hall. She led the fight for equal employment of Negroes at
the Los Angeles County General Hospital in 1918. Years ago she
organized the Industrial Council that finally ended in opening the
doors of the Southern California Telephone Company to qualified
young women and men of minority groups, in other than janitorial
work.

In 1942 Mrs. Bass was the first Negro Woman to serve OM
the County Grand Jury. She has been affiliated with the Elks,
Eastern Star, Federation of Colored Women, the Council of African
Affairs, the Civil Rights Congress and the Half Century News
paper Club.

40th ANNUAL OBSERVANCE OF NEGRO HISTORY WEEK

227

Chall: You were familiar with that?

Albrier: She paved the way for women in the newspaper world. She had many
setbacks and heartaches, but she was very militant to keep on.
Because she could see I ve heard her say she could see women
developing newspapers and owning them and controlling them. It was
only women who were going to put morality back into the light
where it should be.

Chall: She believed that?

Albrier: Yes. And it could be done through the media and the press. She
often spoke to women of the power of the press and doing these
things, and encouraged them to write and to use the press, in the
early days when women didn t think much about it, or were afraid
to use the press.

Chall: She was a militant to the extent that she joined the Independent
Progressive party in the forties and early fifties when there was
that party here. I think she was the vice-presidential candidate,
at one time.

Albrier: Yes. She became dissatisfied with the personnel in the Democratic
party both the parties then, and she felt we needed a new party
in order to bring about some of the social changes that were being
advocated.

Chall: You didn t agree with her about the Independent Progressive party
at the time, did you?

Albrier: No, I didn t think we should destroy the party, or give up the

parties that we had. We should make them be what we wished them
to be.

Chall: Does Charlotta Bass stand out in your mind as one of the unusual
women leaders you ve met?

Albrier: Yes, she was.

Chall: Not many people really know about her, do they?

Albrier: No, but they know about her in southern California. A great many
of them who just came to southern California didn t know her. She
was one of the early pioneers who lived her day and passed on.

Chall: Was she much older than you?
Albrier: Yes, she was older than I was.

228

Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier :

You would meet her at what kinds of affairs? Get to know her.

When I went to Los Angeles, I always went by her office and talked
to her, and she would come up here. I subscribed to her paper for
a long time. She was one of the early pioneers, I can say, that
laid the groundwork for women in the field of news and the press.

There s still not many of them.

No.

[end insert from tape 10, side 1]

Negro Women s Clubs

The California Association of Colored Women

Chall: Now, the Negro women s clubs. You have had years of activity,
mostly at leadership positions in the women s clubs. The first
of them is the California Association of Colored Women. What
did that organization mean to black women and what did it mean to
you as a member and a leader in it?

Albrier: The club for black women starts back again with my grandmother

and Mrs. Booker T. Washington in Tuskegee. Mrs. Washington was one
of the women who started the Federation of Colored Women s Clubs.
Those clubs are in every state. She organized in Tuskegee a
Mothers Club, and my grandmother became a member of the Mothers
Club. Often, I used to go to the Mothers Club with her, or else
I would pick her up in the horse and buggy [laughter] when she
attended these clubs. I saw the Mothers Club in many activities
in Tuskegee: raising money for students who were unable to pay
their way through school, buying some books for students, or
clothing for students, or paying tuition fees for poorer students
who couldn t pay .

In California there was the California Association of
Colored Women s Clubs and I became a member. I joined one of the
clubs that was a member of the state association. That was the
Women s Art and Industrial Club.*

*See National Notes, published by the National Association of
Colored- Women, Inc. Summer Issue, 1952, p. 9.

228a

STATE MONUMENT

Club House A State Monument.
Mrs. Frances Albrier,^ the retir-
ing Pres., of the Women s Art
and Industrial Club, and Officers
presented their Club House to the
47th Annual Convention of the

Calif. Ass n of Colored Women s
Federated Clubs, Inc., held In
Berkeley, Calif., July 27-30th, as
a State Monument. The Ass n
accepted. The Club House is lo
cated at 857 West McArthur Blvd.
Under the leadership of Mrs.
Chlora Hayes Sledge r who was the
5th Pres. of the Club, a lot was
purchased. It was the dream of
Mrs. Sledge to build a club house.
"Under Mrs. Lillie Wilkerson, the
6th Pres., a building was bought
and placed on this lot. For many
years the club rented the two
flats. Presidents Justina Boss,
Leezinka Cooper, Elizabeth Rid
ley, kept the fires burning tow
ards making this building a club
house. During the Presidency
of Mrs. Maud Norman, the upper
flat was remodeled into two Apts.
Pres. Candace Saddler changed
and opened the lower flat into
club rbgms and started the club
meeting in their own club house.
Under the Presidency of Mrs.
Frances Albrier, Officers and
members paid the club s indebt
edness and furnished the club-
rooms, and opened the club house
ito be used by other clubs and or
ganizations.

229

Chall: Why did you choose that one?

Albrier: Friends got me to join that one. Each club goes out for member
ships. They felt they wanted me in their club; others did too,
but I chose that club because I had friends in that club. That was
the club that had a building they were going to use as a clubhouse.
I was very much interested in that, because I thought we rather
needed a clubhouse. It was pioneered and sponsored the idea of
that through Mrs. Cora Hayes Sledge.

Chall: Tell me about her. She was a very active leader in the black

community at that time. Was she much older than you at the time?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Had she been here a long while?

Albrier: She d been in the Bay Area a long while. Her husband was an

attorney. She was active in the association, too. She was state
president, and she was active in other organizations. She was
active in the Fannie Wall Home. That was sponsored by the
Association of Colored Women s Clubs. She served as president
of the Home for twelve or more years.

Chall: You were active in Fannie Wall, too. I notice that you had gone
on a membership campaign and achieved 100 percent. I guess that
was the goal that was set. That was in 1941, so that was in the
early days, I guess, of Fannie Wall.

Fannie Wall Home was a unique kind of institution in this
area for a long time .

Albrier: Yes, Fannie Wall. There were no homes for children in the
Bay Area, not even in San Francisco.

Chall: This is for black children.

Albrier: Black children, yes. Where mothers could come and board their

children or give them day care in the Bay Area. Mrs. Fannie Wall
and a few women started the home.

Chall: Did you know her?

Albrier: Yes. She and other women struggled to keep the home going for many
years and then the California State Association took over the
responsibility of running the home of which she was a member
to help her with the home. Each year there were more children to

230

Albrier: be cared for. It became a monument of the California State

Association of Colored Women s Clubs. That s when Mrs. Sledge
came out here. She became interested in and was one of the
directors of the home. For many years, the home struggled, and
did not have enough room for the children that the mothers needed
to give them care while they were employed. But it was the
only home in the Bay Area that did that. So, it happened that
they had two sets of children. They had the boarding children
that stayed there all the time. Then they had the day care
children that only came in the daytime because their parents picked
them up in the afternoon, after work.

Chall: It was an early day care center.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: It finally closed, didn t it, in the fifties or sixties, I guess.

Albrier: It closed in the sixties because

[interruption while ringing telephone is answered]
Chall: We were talking about the Fannie Wall Home closing.

Albrier: Yes, it closed in the sixties, due to the freeway and the rebuilding
of west Oakland. The board of directors sold the old building.
In the meantime, the board became confused about what they wanted
to do. They wanted to get another place. So the old Fannie Wall
Home on Linden Street was closed. The home belonged to the
Federation of Colored Women s Clubs, and they had deeded it to
the Fannie Wall Association to be used as a home and day nursery.
In the event they closed the home, it was supposed to revert back
to the federation.

At that time, the board of directors sold the home to the
it wasn t model cities it was the urban development department of
Oakland that had charge of taking over and rebuilding West Oakland.

Chall: Redevelopment

Albrier: Redevelopment Project. The money was divided between the Fannie Wall
Home board and the federation, and was put into banks into escrow
it went through escrow and then it was put in. banks. The
federation still has their money and they are proposing to have a
club house. The Fannie Wall board bought another building on
55th Street [Oakland], which they had used as a home and then had
to close again, due to some kind of disagreement about not having
the right building for children, and getting up to those requirements
that the city and state wanted them to have. Now, they are opening
it up again.

231

Chall: Oh, are they?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Under the name Fannie Wall?

Albrier: Yes, it s still Fannie Wall. They have two mothers in there and
I think about eight children. They take care of destitute
children that the children s department has sent in there. They re
still operating.

Chall: That s an interesting story. I know that was a long time import
ant institution here for children and parents.

In the other activities that you did with the California
Association, I notice that you wrote articles on women s employ
ment in wartime for their bulletin. Then you were the state
chairman for the Citizenship and Legislation Committee in 1949.

Albrier: During the wartime, women went into industry.
Chall: Yes, you told me that story.

What I ve noticed is that you usually worked in the club
here, in those areas that were important to you. You brought
your experience to them, as you did with the articles on wartime
employment.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Later on, when you were concerned about FEPC and other legislation,
then you got into that branch of it, so that you could work on
legislation and carry that story to the women.

Albrier: Yes.

The National Council of Negro Women

Chall: What is the difference between the goals, work, or the women

members of the California Association of Colored Women and the
National Council of Negro Women? Is there much of a difference?

Albrier: Yes, there s quite a difference due to their organization, due to
the time they were organized. The Association of Colored Women s
Clubs, that s national; then each state takes on its state name,

232

Albrier: like the California Association of Colored Women s Clubs. All of
the states together make the national.

The National Association of Colored Women s Clubs was
started back about twenty-five years after slavery.
Mrs. Ruff in [Josephine St. Pierre] and a great many other women in
the East Mary Church Terrell, Mrs. Booker T. Washington got
together and said they wanted to start an organization throughout
the states to work with black women to elevate black women, to
teach black women, because so many thousands of them didn t know
anything; hadn t been trained. Many knew only how to work in the
fields, chopping cotton. In many states there were no schools. If
there were schools, there were only three months of the year when they
were opened for the masses of children, and youth. There were no
institutions to inform and teach black women.

They just let them out of slavery when they knew nothing only
the work in the fields. It was started way back in that era
the Association of Colored Women s Clubs. Mrs. Bethune came up in
that era with those clubs. She became the twelfth president of
the National Association of Colored Women s Clubs. Now they have
state clubs in, I think, thirty-seven or thirty-eight of the states.

When Mrs. Bethune came on the scene, she worked with
President [Franklin] Roosevelt and took a lot of her ideas to him.
She worked in the NYA [National Youth Administration], appointed
by President Roosevelt. She traveled throughout the country.
She saw the need for another organization that would be different.

But that great need didn t come to her until the president
was getting together the United Nations and people to work in the
United Nations. There was no black representative woman appointed,
or in the United Nations. She asked the president about that.
He said to her, "Mary, if you want to get black women representatives
in government organizations like that, you have to have numbers.
You have to have many numbers. You have to have 700,000 to
800,000 women." Because the Jewish women were represented and
they had thousands of women, because they had the organizations
all over. He said, "You have to organize the black women, the
Negro women, so they ll represent thousands if you want to go into
government and be representatives in government." That gave her
the idea of organizing the black women.

So she set out to do so. When she first organized them,
she drew in women from the different fields. She drew in fraternal
women. She drew in missionary women from the different churches.
She drew in political women. There weren t as many of them as
others. She drew in women from the Masonic Eastern Star and the
Elks. She drew in the teachers and the women in labor. She got
all of those organizations together, and with representatives.

233

Chall: So it was a representative type of organization?
Albrier: Yes.

Then she went back and told them, "I have these representative
women six, seven hundred thousand women as representatives
now." She got the first woman, Edith Sampson, appointed to the
United Nations. That organization that she organized was called
the National Council of Negro Women.

Chall: It has definite programs for
Albrier: It has a definite program to operate.

Chall: Has Dorothy Height been the executive director or president always,
ever since it was organized?

Albrier: No, there s been three presidents before Dorothy Height.

Mrs. Bethune, Mrs. Mason, and I forget the name of the other lady.
But Mrs. Bethune was president for many years. After her were
two other presidents; then Dorothy Height. She s been president
for many years .

Chall: Is that a paid position like an executive officer?
Albrier: No, only expenses. They don t get any salary.
Chall: Miss Height has spent almost a lifetime

Albrier: Yes, but Dorothy Height has held two jobs. She was executive
director on the YWCA board. When she came out here to have a
seminar for the YWCA, she would also have the council meet
together.

Chall: That s a prodigious job.

Albrier: I think she s retiring from the YWCA now. Of course, the council
paid her expenses .

Chall: Have you found that the work that you ve done in the National
Council has been stimulating? Is it different from what it is
in the California Association of Colored Women?

Albrier: Yes, it s different. It takes up different needs. For instance,
under Miss Height in the past few years, during the government s
program of building housing and housing people adequately in the
southern states, she visited Mississippi and there she met
Fannie Lou Hamer, who was struggling in Mississippi to raise the
standards of living for the black people there.

234

Albrier: It was through Dorothy Height and the organization the National

Council of Negro Women that they went to the government and got so
many thousands of dollars I don t remember how many thousands to
build adequate homes in Mississippi in the city where Fannie Lou
Hamer lived, and to build child care centers. The council worked
a good many years there. They also established a large child care
center in Washington, D.C. for blacks. They went into that type
of work.

Chall: I understand they have a pig farm; at least, that s one of their
activities that has to do with farmers in the South.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: When you were the president of this organization, it seemed to have
been located in San Francisco. [1956-1957] Do you recall that it
was a San Francisco branch of the National Council of Negro Women?

Albrier: The San Francisco chapter.

Chall: There was not one here, is that it?

Albrier: Yes, there was one here. There was an East Bay chapter and a
San Francisco chapter.

Chall: How come you were the president of the San Francisco chapter?

Albrier: I was for many years as active in San Francisco as I was in the
East Bay.

The San Francisco chapter was the first chapter that was
organized by the National Council of Negro Women, by Mrs. Bethune
herself in 1935. That s when she came out here with Dr. DuBois
and several others for the United Nations and Walter White when the
United Nations was organized. It was when she was out here that
she organized the San Francisco council.

The council over here wasn t organized until three or four
years later. And I belonged to the San Francisco chapter, and
worked with the San Francisco chapter. That s why they elected me
that year to be president of that council.

Chall: I m a little confused about the year 1935 and the United Nations.
My recollection of the United Nations was that President Roosevelt
was setting it up during World War II.

Albrier: It wasn t 1935; it was 1945, wasn t it?
Chall: Yes, about that 43.

235

Chall: But Mrs. Bethune did actually found the National Council of Negro
Women in 1935?

Albrier: Yes. In San Francisco. She founded the organization in the

East Washington, D.C. after the NYA and WPA were established.

Chall: So she must have been founding it for other reasons. It may very
well have been President Roosevelt who encouraged her to do it,
though.

Albrier: Yes, it was.

Chall: I notice you were a representative to a United Nations function in
the early forties in San Francisco, I wondered how that had come
about. I don t think I brought my note with me today.

Albrier: I was, and I was to make a tour of the United Nations at one time,
too, for the chapter.

Chall: I see. So world peace has been one of their goals, too, as well
as civil rights .

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: One of your activities when you were president was to work with
the Sun Reporter and the Urban League on a major citizenship
project in the area, called the Citizen Education Project, which
was used to get people registered and then to get them to go out
and vote. And you sponsored, in connection with it, a political
forum at Nourse Auditorium. The chairman was Dr. Goodlett of
the Sun Reporter. That must have been a considerable amount of
planning and work. That was October 14, 1956.

Albrier: In 1955 and 1956, there was kind of a lull in the citizenship

activities. They were not voting, many of them, and not taking
any interest in voting. We had any number of black candidates
who were running for different offices, and we wanted to keep
that interest up. So we organized different citizenship clubs
and organizations, especially political, to get the interest of
citizens in politics and in government, and to show them that a
great many of their complaints could be remedied by their
becoming involved in their city s and their county s government
that they were responsible for a great many of the things they
were complaining about .

The people that were elected were elected by the people.
And they were responsible to the people who were electing them to
government. That was the idea of Dr. Goodlett in sponsoring the
forum seeing that more people became involved, especially in the
black communities. Because after the war, there was kind of a lull.

235a

Two letterheads and one flyer relating to Francis Albrier s work with
National Council of Negro Women

MARY MCLEOD BETHUNE, Founder
DOROTHY I. HEIGHT, National President

FRANCES M. ALBRIER
Public Relations Chairman
East Bay Council

Past President, San Francisco Council
1621 OREGON STREET
BERKELEY 3. CAI.JFORNTA

sore

CITIZENSHIP

*fm

National Cop
Natio

FRANCES AC?

VDUCA7JQN PROJECT

W- 1 "* !s*mfijJ&!Sa

, PRESIDENT

HEADQUARTERS:
1914 FIULMORE STREET SAN FRANCISCO IS

CITIZENSHIP
EDUCATION PROJECT

Announces Its Second Phase of Activities:
VOTERS EDUCATION
PROS & CONS OF ALL fSSUES
STRUCTURE of STATE GOVERNMENT

Sponsored by the

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF NEGRO WOMEN x
NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE

HEADQUARTERS:

1914 F1LLMORE STREET

It takes a /of of Irving _
To Mcke a Solid Citizen

A Vote/ess People
Is a Hoaeless People

B S Q O &lt;3 CD co

235b

236

Albrier: One reason was that there were so many new people coming into the
community.

Chall: From the newspaper accounts of that meeting, it looked as if what
ever national black figures were on the scene, even in the
Eisenhower administration, were brought here to speak. And
prominent local blacks. There was the beginning of an attempt to
show that there were blacks in areas of power and there could
possibly be more. It looks as if there d be a lot of work to get
something like that set up.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did you work much with the Urban League? Did you find that they
were helpful?

Albrier: Yes, they were helpful. They were in employment. We had to help
them in getting people employed; get them in the atmosphere of
employment; attitude of employment; getting trained. Because a
great many of them weren t trained in different vocations that they
wanted to work in.

Out of that idea, came through the city s government the
Skills Center. The Skills Center has been going on ever since.
We now send a great many young people there to be trained.

Chall: That was an Urban League project?
Albrier: Yes.

The Debutante Balls

Chall: You weren t then the president of the National Council of Negro

Women, because this was now 1966 to 1968. But the council chapter
wanted to have a debutante ball for girls who could never have
afforded to have been debutantes ever.

Albrier: That was the San Francisco national council.

Chall: And you were very active in helping to establish this Debutante
Ball for these young girls who would need to be sponsored by at
least $100 from somebody who would care to sponsor a girl. The
girls had to be poor but have good scholarship and good health
habits, and all that sort of thing. I notice that, I guess it was
the first one, was held in the Sheraton-Palace Hotel twenty-two

237

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :
Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:

girls. Then a couple of years later, it became difficult to have
these. I wondered what happened to it. Was it a good idea? Did
you fight with the Links people over it?

Did that have a date?

Yes. The first one was 1966.
1967 was the

The second one was 1967. I think

last one.

Yes, 1967 was the last one. Here s a picture of all the girls.

66 was the first.

It lasted what a couple of years only? Or were there more?

For many years, the Links had a debutante ball. Usually, those
debutantes were girls whose parents or fathers were usually
professional or in business. It was very expensive to belong to
that debutante ball, because they had many parties and they had
a lot of expense. So that the average girl in high school
couldn t afford to become a debutante. One of the members of the
national council happened to make a kind of research in the
schools . She had a daughter in the schools . She found out how
much money it took for her daughter to be a debutante and she made
a research to find out about the quality of the girls their
educational background.

There were any number of worthy girls who had made good grades
and had become wonderful women, but whose parents could not afford
to help them. So it came up to the National Council of Negro
Women that if they could get $100 sponsors, they could have the
deb ball. The members then sent out letters to the schools to get
a list of eligible girls. We got permission from their parents.

The first ball was delightful. These girls have all made
contributions to the community they have good jobs, some are in
professions. The next year the council office didn t want to take
on the responsibility, but a few of us wanted to continue, so
three or four of us took it on. We took the case to the public
for sponsorship. It was a good ball. After that, no one else
took on the responsibility, so the idea fell through. But it gave
the idea to churches and clubs who continued to sponsor these
girls .

I have a letter from a girl who is graduating from U.C. and
who is planning to become a doctor she wrote, "I was one of your
debutantes." One of the ladies who trained the girls in her charm
school passed recently.

237a

The Post, November 16, 1966

APT ANTI

rT ppg Pn^t President and public

relations chairman. FRANCES ALBRIER, announced that the
nexy meeting will be held at their Club House, 857 W. Mac-
Arthur Boulevard, in Oakland, on November 17th at 8 p.m.,
and promises to be interesting and exciting with a guest speaker
from the Oakland Art Museum. The public is invited to
participate in the question-answer hour regarding the Museum.

MEMO: TO SOCIALITES WHO CAN AFFORD FT.

.San Francis rhapter nf the National Council of Negro

fr&gt; r ? A

who can afford to be

$100 sponsors lor girls

who will be presented in their Co
tillion at the Hilton Hotel,
December 20, 1966.

prevl sfrdentS. of

moral standards

potential, but OPP

gond

financially pay for their pr&-

FRANCES ALBRIER

THE POST will later give
proper credit to theSanFran-
dsco stores who are donating
the debs dresses, shoes and
accessories, and to the model
ling school donating free les
sons to these worthy girls.

Those who can afford to be
sponsors, telephone Mrs.
Frances AJbrier at B45-4772.

238

The Elks and the Eastern Star

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :
Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier :
Chall:

Albrier:
Chall :
Albrier:

Tell me about the Elks and the Eastern Star. As I see it, you
were a member, a grand [assistant] director in the department of
civil liberties, of one of the Elks groups. Was that a black
Elks?

Yes.

For women? That was a women s auxiliary of the black Elks?

Yes.

How did you happen to get into the Elks?

Through some friends who took in my membership. They were interested
in me becoming an Elk because they thought I was always interested
in civil liberties. They had a department of civil liberties
at that time, so they wanted me to become a member so I could
work in that department.

You did, of course.
Yes. Which I did.

That s kind of ironic that there would be a department of civil
liberties in the Elks organization, which even to this day,
hasn t accepted, as far as I know, blacks into their membership.

Well, that s the reason they have a civil liberties department.
[Laughter]

But they didn t know you were boring from within.
do in this department?

What did you

The civil liberties department was to take up anything that was
discriminatory. At that time, we fought very hard with labor,
labor organizations, where there was discrimination. Discrimination
in housing. Just discrimination in everything. That was the work
of the civil liberties. As the president told Mrs. Bethune, if
you re going to work and fight it nationally, you needed numbers.
So, the Elks is kind of we call it a play lodge. It s a place
where people like to have a good time, but it has its serious
side, too. One of the serious sides was civil liberties.

239

Albrier: And the fight a great many of those chapters and lodges were

state lodges in the South, where they had all kinds of prejudice.
At that time, they really lynched and burned people in the South.
That brought on organizations like the Elks civil liberties. It
was a continual fight against discrimination and the things that
happened to people.

Chall: You were able then, through the Elks, to reach a different group
of people than you would, let s say, in these other women s
organizations. Reaching into a different population of women?

Albrier: No. It was a black women s organization in the black Elks. It
was to keep them active and informed on civil liberties. Like
the women in California and Oregon and the western states, we
would give funds send funds back to those in the South, who needed
funds for different activities. For instance, if the civil rights
and civil liberties department there put on a program to encourage
blacks to vote and to go and register to vote, they would pay the
fare of some civil liberties person to go to Mississippi and to
Georgia and to Louisiana, to talk and to work with the people,
and to encourage them to vote.

Chall: Was this before the major civil rights struggle?

Albrier: Yes. It all led up to Martin Luther King. All of these struggles
were going on before then in different organizations. Very
quietly, but they were going on. The Elks civil liberties program
was one of them. They don t have that program now in the Elks
organization.

Chall: Is there still a black Elks organization?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And they don t have civil liberties anymore?

Albrier: No. Judge Hobson Reynolds of Philadelphia was the one that headed
the civil liberties department. He s the director now of the Elks
lodge throughout the United States.

Chall: Are blacks trying to get into the Elks organization without any
prejudice? I mean trying to integrate it?

Albrier: No, I don t think the blacks have bothered too much about

integrating into the white Elks. The Masons havent bothered

about integrating into the white Masons, because they have their own.

Chall: I see. They re satisfied.

240

Albrier:

Chall :

Albrier:
Chall:
Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier :

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall :

Albrier:

Chall:

They re not bothered about going in. They re all friends. They
all exchange ideas. But there s never been any drive to integrate
those lodges.

So it s a fraternal club they re perfectly willing to have with
the name Elks, is that it?

Yes. There s the International Order of Elks.
Brotherhood of Elks?
Brotherhood of Elks, yes.

And the Eastern Star? I notice that Mary Bethune was an Eastern
Star and I came across the fact that you were, too. What did
that mean in your career here?

The Eastern Star was a fraternal lodge. Those lodges were built
and organized in order to help people and help each other binding
neighbors together. My grandmother was an Eastern Star and she
always told me she didn t care about other lodges, but she
always wanted me to be an Eastern Star. Because that was an
organization on the lines of Christianity. That appealed to her
which it is.

It s Masonic.

Yes. In those days, people didn t have the wealth they have now.
They had to help each other. If a person was sick, they would go
to their homes and stay with them all night and help take care of
them. If they needed the laundry done, they would take the laundry
home and do it. They helped each other like that. Those
organizations came up on the idea of need and helping each other.

Was the Eastern Star here the same kind?
satisfactions out of it?

Did you get the same

Yes. They have a burial fund and sick fund, for people who are
sick; they have their fraternal fund, their grand lodges where
they meet and have their organization. They have communication;
recreation, and it is a vehicle of communication.

Are you active in it at all?

No, I m not active in them any more. I just remain a member.

There s a limit to one s time.

241

Albrier: Yes. I became more active in the other organizations political

and welfare organizations. There was one thing about being active
in those fraternal groups: you get the ear of so many people.
For instance, anything with civil liberties that came up that we
thought people needed to know about all I would do was go to
the lodges community groups or write.

Due to the black citizens of this country being discriminated
against, segregated to themselves in housing, organizations,
employment excepting the precious few who were militant and the
white citizens who fought injustices against human beings black
citizens were in a world of their own struggling to survive and
expand .

[Insert from tape 9, side 2]

Eastbay Women s Missionary Fellowship

Chall: What about the Fellowship Missionary Women of the East Bay whom

you were associated with, back here in the mid-forties? This group
invited women from white missionary societies to be their guests
to discuss Christian citizenship and Christian friendliness. What
was that all about? And who were these missionaries?

Albrier: I should have looked that up. There are names that I want to
remember there.

Chall: I didn t catch any names, but I can find them, I think.

Albrier: Out of our East Bay Women s Welfare Club that we had, we had
quite a few discussions on religions. In that club were
women who belonged to all of the churches: Baptists, Methodists,
Pentecostals. They were more prominently Baptists and Methodists.

Chall: The East Bay Women s Welfare Club?

Albrier: Yes. It s on your pink sheet.

Chall: I see. The one that I took.

Albrier: No, that was Little Citizens.

Chall: I think I have a card on the welfare club.

Albrier: Yes, East Bay Women s Welfare Club. We were the ones who started
the fight about teachers in schools.

242

Chall: Of course, I ve got it clear now.

Albrier: I ve been in so many activities, I get all confused and mixed up.

Chall: You haven t done too badly. I don t think you ve been mixed up,
except this time.

Albrier: We all met in a meeting to discuss some community problems. I
forget what it was. It came up that we d bring it up into the
missionary societies.

Chall: I see. Each church had a missionary society?

Albrier: Yes. The Baptists and the Methodists, each one. Mrs. Althea Paul
and Mrs. Bell, who was the Pastor Reverend Bell s wife, of North
Oakland Baptist Church. Mrs. Paul was a member of the Progressive
Baptist Church. I was a Methodist, and there were several
Methodists in the room at the time. We discussed the role of
missionaries.

It was a white woman who taught public speaking around the
neighborhood she was a member of the Baptist church in Berkeley,
I forget which one of them. She made a remark that she felt that
all the people could get together because her gardener told her
certain things, and the maid who came to clean her house was black,
and she said certain things; and she felt that we all should
get together.

I agreed, I felt so, too. "How many black people have you met?
Have you met many black people in the churches? Black women who
were working?" She hadn t met many of them. She only knew
what her maid and her gardener said. I said, "That s it. You
have not had the right kind of communication that you know what
the black people think. and what their religions are. You only
see through the eyes of your maid and your gardener. Have you
met any of our professionals? Any of our doctors? Any of our
teachers? Any of our nurses? Any of our business people? And
asked them, or discussed with them, issues and what their opinions
are?" She said, "No."

Then we decided to have this community-wide missionary fellow
ship of all churches, where all the women would get together
and have meetings and have discussions, so we could understand each
other. Out of that was born the Eastbay Women s Missionary.

Chall: I see. That s how it came about.

Albrier: So we set our first meeting and everyone of us was to invite the
missionary women of all the churches. Letters went out to all

243

Albrier: of the churches. That meeting was at the Methodist Church, the
Fifteenth Street AME Church, a black church one of the pioneer
churches. All of the women white and black women, got together
in this missionary fellowship. We d discuss the teachings of
Christ and how we should take those teachings and communicate
and be very skillful in getting the message over to other people,
and to work with them and be friends with them, because we had lost
the idea of Christianity, if we don t do that.

After that meeting, the women were very much excited and
enthused about getting together, and that was the beginning of
the Missionary Women s Fellowship. We met in all of the churches,
black and white .

Chall: You just met as women, though. You didn t go to each other s
churches on Sunday, did you?

Albrier: We d invite them if they wanted to come. Some of the women did
come to the other churches.

Chall: How long did that fellowship last as an organization, or is it
still going on?

Albrier: I don t think it s going on now. It lasted about four, five years.
I became active in something else and couldn t go to the meetings,
but I attended it about four years. We would take on different
subjects and projects. I remember it was through the fellowship
that something was started that I was very proud of. That was
after the war, we had quite a few people who worked in the ship
yards. They became stranded, because they used up all the money
they had, and they still wanted to live in the Bay Area.

During the Depression days, when I was working as a case
worker, we had and the NYA became involved, that was the National
Youth Administration there were a great many young people,
especially young men, going to camps and they were sending them to
these camps to rebuild their bodies and get them out in the open
and give them camp life. A great many of them didn t have the
clothing to go.

We only had two churches that had storerooms and sewing
rooms where we could send these boys to get clothing. That was
the Seventh Day Adventist and the Catholic churches. The other
churches didn t have the sewing rooms and have the storerooms.
I remember sending some boys. They came back and showed me
what they had. They had nice corduroys that had been washed
and ironed and buttons sewn on; and jackets and shirts. I said
what a wonderful thing this is. Every church should have a
storeroom. But I never thought of how I could get that across.

244

Albrier: I got it across by telling the missionary fellowship with all of
these women, that they should go back to their churches and have
a storeroom. For instance, if you heard of a family in need,
you didn t have to go beg. You d go in the storeroom and you had
the clothing. I said if you made jellies and jams, give a few
jars of fruit for your storeroom in your church. When you have
money, have a money box so you can go out and buy the needs of a
family .

You can outfit this whole family from your storeroom in your
church. We can never tell whether we ll get in a Depression again
or not that we ll need the church; the missionaries in the church
can give that type of work and help to the community. All of them
went back and advocated a storeroom in the churches. Any number
of the black churches still have their storerooms going.

Chall: That s good. There s always somebody in need somewhere.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What did you think of the Church of All Peoples that Howard Thurman
organized, I think in San Francisco, and maybe in Boston too?

Albrier: That s a church that takes up the people who don t like

sectarianism, but they just want to be in a church. They believe
in God and they believe in their fellow man and they can be taught
the spiritual side of life that they crave. There s a great many
of our young people who that appeals to. They don t want to
associate with the Baptists or the Methodists or those sectarians
like that. They want to be free and open. They love God, love
their fellow man. They have a spiritual side they wish to develop.
That s the type of church that Dr. Thurman sees and has
organized, which has helped a great many people.

[end insert tape 9, side 2]

Men and Women Working Together

The Negro Historical and Cultural Society

Chall: Through what group did you set up the window displays for
Negro History Week?

245

Albrier: At that time, when I set up that program in the stores, it was
through the Negro Historical Societies.

Chall: With respect to the historical societies, you were also president,
or chairman, of the later

Albrier: San Francisco

Chall: San Francisco Negro Historical and Cultural Society their
president in 1965?

Albrier: Yes, and it was then that I put the store window in the Emporium.
There had never been anything about black history.

Chall: I think you accomplished that before you were the president. I
have a note here that it was 1957 that you

Albrier: I was vice-president at the time.

Chall: 1958, Capwells a display in their windows. [Oakland]

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Then you did a tremendous amount of speaking all over on Negro

History Week. How did you manage to pull all that together? It
must have taken quite a bit of time finding the materials to
display, and then getting the Emporium the Emporium was the
initial move. Once you got that down, it wasn t so hard, probably,
to get the other store, but how did you manage to get the Emporium
to agree to this?

Albrier: For many years, I belonged to the National Negro Historical

and Cultural Society that was started in Washington, D.C., by
Dr. Carter G. Woodson. Mrs. Bethune was one of the trustees of
that society. I knew the people who were in the society. That
society would always get up a history kit , and would send it out
to us for display, with the pictures of different Negroes, like
Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and all of those, for our
displays and for Negro History Week.

I noticed in the Emporium store, and being one of their
customers, one of their credit customers [laughs], I noticed
that they had different displays in their windows. I noticed
they had Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts, and different kinds of
displays in a certain window. So that s when I got the idea, why
not ask them if they would let me put in a display for Negro
History Week.

245a

First Historical Candlelight
Recognition Reception

EAST BAY NEGRO HISTORICAL SOCIETY

Honoring
COMMUNITY "BUILDERS OF BRIDGES"

San Pablo Recreation Center

Park and Oregon Street
Berkeley, California

Sunday, March 3rd, 1968
h to 7 P.M.

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246

Albrier: I went up to the director, they call directors of stores [laughter]
I went up to the manager of the Emporium. I asked to see the
manager; I had to wait a little while and he saw me. I told him
what I would like to do and like to see and if they did it, they
would be the first store, and I guess the only store, because I
hadn t asked any of the others to do that. I told him about a
quilt that we had, the Frederick Douglass quilt, that had been made
during the war years by a black and white historical society in
Sausalito, and it was quite a work of art. I would like to display
that in the window, if he would let us have the display for Negro
History Week. He said, "We d be very glad to do that." So I
brought over all of the materials and things to put in the window,
and he had his window display man arrange it .

Chall: Seeing pictures of it in your scrapbook, it looks impressive.

Albrier: So, then it came over here. The historical society that I belong
to is over here. I knew Capwell s and Emporium belonged to the
same group. I took the picture the Emporium had made they gave
the pictures to me and I gave a copy to Capwell s, and they said
they would do the same thing. Sure, they would be glad to have
the display. There were several displays in Capwell s windows.

Chall: How did the black community feel about that?

Albrier: They were elated. They wondered how it was done; how I got it

done, and did I have any trouble. They asked a lot of questions.
But they were elated about it.

Chall: That was another pioneering step in the history of the black
community.

Albrier: This year, they had a display in the Emporium. Also the Historical
Society is called the Afro-American Historical Society now.
They ve changed the name.

Chall: I noticed in some article I was reading, that there s a regular
building or room in Oakland. Do they have their own offices and
building for their meetings?

Albrier: Yes. They have a store, where they display different pictures
and history, and books.

Picture Above: San
Francisco Mayor John
Shelley presents
Proclamation on Negro
History Week, February,
1966. From left to
right: Lucy Cupps
Pickens, Mayor Shelley,
Frances Albrier, and
James Herndon.

Display in Capwell s
window. Oakland, 1958

247

Chall: How are they financed?

Albrier: Through memberships and donations,
[end tape 8, side 2]

De Fremery Recreation and Hospitality Center, 1942

[Interview 9: March 2, 1978]
[begin tape 9, side 1]

Chall: We never did talk about the opening of the De Fremery Hospitality
House during the war for black soldiers and sailors [dedicated
December 14, 1941]

Albrier: For servicemen.

Chall: Servicemen. How did it come about that you and others organized
the Hospitality House at De Fremery Park?

Albrier: When the war first began, they sent out four hundred servicemen

who were in the 495th Quartermaster Corps to Oakland. They helped
build the Oakland headquarters for servicemen. What were those
camps for servicemen called? They built all of the barracks and
everything for a camp, for the area. Most of these men were
from. New York, Chicago, and the eastern states. It was just
the beginning of the war, when they began to recruit men into
the army and the navy at that time.

There were no places for them to have recreation, and we found
that a great many of them were wandering up and down Seventh
Street, going into the bars; some of them getting lonesome and
getting drunk, and getting into trouble.

It was then that Joshua Rose, who was secretary of the YMCA
at the time, and Reverend Brown, who was the pastor of the Fifteenth
Street A.M.E. Church, myself, and other interested citizens,
formed a committee to see what could be done for these service
men to get them out of trouble, at the request of some of the
railroad employees the porters and dining car men who were also
disturbed about that. So we called a meeting of citizens in the
De Fremery Park Club House to see what could be done. Out of that
meeting we proceeded, from the city, to get the De Fremery Club
House as a clubhouse for the men, and to use that building. The
city set it aside.

It was during the WPA days, when they had workers that we
could use through them to direct the clubhouse. One of them at
that time was Attorney Tom Berkley, who was director. Marie Turner

248

Albrier: was director of the hostesses. But we had to organize it. We
furnished the place and renovated it, and had clubrooms and
recreation rooms, and an auditorium for dancing. Then we proceeded
to form a women s group to get the hostesses and to get other
women on the board of directors to give service. We had no money.

We started out with no money. We had in that group,
Mrs. Walter Oreen, whose husband was a former serviceman retired
army captain, and Mrs. Mae Bondurant, who was Dr. Bondurant s wife.
I ll have to come back with the other names.

Chall: I may find them in your scrapbook, too. Many of the names are
there, underneath the pictures. I can look it up.*

Albrier: We started out that way and finally we got good publicity from
the papers, and we had rag drive sales, and we had all kinds of
sales. And we wrote letters to different organizations. One of
them I think you can see the letter gave twenty-five dollars a
month for the servicemen and their recreation at the time.

When we went to the camp , we found that at the camp , the
captains, admirals, and other officers wanted us to furnish
hostesses for their parties on the camp.

We found that they had organized a singing group, a quartet
of servicemen. On Sunday mornings, I would take them to the
churches and let them sing the spirituals and other songs. Then
I would tell them we wanted the mothers to lend their girls and
we would chaperone them. We would take them home, so they
wouldn t be going home alone. Because they had sons and they
didn t know when their sons would be going into the army and the
navy, and they d be in some city, lonesome, and nobody caring
anything about them.

So we had to be kind to these boys and we didn t know how
many we would have to serve. Anyway, we were getting to serve
them. After that, after we were in service for seven or eight
months, then USO [United Service Organization] came in. They
were organizing. They came in and took over the same building.

*Mrs. Ailia Washington, Mrs. R.H. Morrow, Mrs. May Hill,
Miss Marie Turner, Mrs. Evelyn Jones, Mrs. Lanette Tinsley,
Mrs. Hubbard, Mrs. Viola Dennis, Mrs. Gertrude Hill,
Mrs. Nancy Pitts, Mrs. D.M. Tillman, Mrs. Ruth Larche,
Mrs. Leona Wysinger.

249

Albrier: The USO had one for whites and one for blacks. But in our build
ing, we had them all together.

Chall: Did you?

Albrier: Yes, the boys walked over those discriminatory lines. The white
boys came in and we entertained them and treated them, fed them
pies and cakes and whatever they wanted to eat, like we did the
black boys. And the black boys didn t resent them, the service
men. And they didn t resent each other they were the type that
just didn t resent each other.

Chall: That s interesting, because there was a color line drawn by
the USO.

Albrier: It was a color line drawn, but it was beginning at that time,
that that line was beginning to break and not being able to be
held by the young people. A great many of the servicemen helped
to break that line.

It was at the time, also, in the Democratic party, that we
stressed to Truman about breaking the segregation and desegregating
the army and the navy.

Chall: Which he did.

Albrier: Yes, it was through their efforts. A great many of those men went
overseas together, and were in battle together. Some of the black
boys saved the white boys and some of the white boys saved the
black boys. They came back over here with that in mind, that they
were going to do all that they could to end discrimination. The
Red Cross would try to discriminate against them on the ships, those
that were wounded. They d say, "Listen, that s my buddy. My
buddy helped save my life and I want his bed by my bed." Many
of the white boys would say that, would make those remarks
against discrimination and would insist that they still be with
their black buddies and their white buddies overseas.

Chall: What was the general feeling in the black community about the
Japanese at the time of the war Pearl Harbor and the Japanese
internment?

Albrier: The black community didn t have too much to say. They couldn t
believe that the Japanese were going against this country, that
they really meant to fight. The black community felt like they
should have put the Germans, who were the ones who started the
war they should have been in concentration camps, too. And
that they were segregating the Japanese alone, by themselves it
wasn t fair. It should be both of them.

250

Albrier: But the Japanese and the blacks in the country, at that time,

both were discriminated against. The Japanese never discriminated
against blacks in their buildings, or their hotels, in their
restaurants. They never discriminated against giving the blacks
service where the Chinese did. So the black community felt a
little closer to the Japanese, although they couldn t understand
that war period that hatred brings on, becuase they were in
war against each other. Many of my friends and neighbors in this
neighborhood were Japanese.

Chall: Yes, I remember you told me that.

Albrier: And the Buddhist church is just down the street from me, and I
knew any number of the Buddhist priests and had talked to them.

My son, Albert, wanted to take up and become an engineer.
He could not go to school here as an engineer and take those
classes. One of his Japanese friends told him the Emperor was
calling him and his brother back to Japan and that was before
the war began to go into their military service. He said, "Why
don t you go back with us? You can join the Merchant Marines and
you can be a captain and an engineer there." There was no
discrimination there.

It s unfortunate but it took the war to bring out a great
many of those truths about people and human beings. So we
served I think it was ten months the servicemen in the Bay Area
before the USO came in and took over.

Chall: Then did you continue to act as hostesses, in the

community? You didn t have to raise funds, but did you act as
hostesses?

Albrier: No, the USO was fortunate in the Bay Area that they didn t have
to start from the groundwork up. We had laid the groundwork
and they just took over where we left off. We turned it over
to them, because they had their directors and they were being
paid through the USO. So far as the organization, it was all
completed.

The PTA: Concerns With Schools and Education

Chall: Now, I noted in your scrapbook that you had membership cards to
Longfellow PTA and McClymonds PTA. Those were the only ones.
So I assume your children went to Longfellow School in Berkeley
and McClymonds was that the high school?

251

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was in Oakland.

Albrier: That was in Oakland. My son went to McClymonds. He got a job
in Oakland and he went to McClymonds High School.

Chall: Was he living in Oakland or was he just going to school there?

Albrier: He lived in Oakland. He got a job working with Mr. Baker, who was
a mortician, and he lived with Mr. and Mrs. Baker. That threw
him into McClymonds school district.

Education and Prejudice

Chall:

Albrier:

I wondered why he went there.
Berkeley High School?

And the girls went then to

Chall:
Albrier:

They went to Berkeley High School. The youngest went to
University High School. They all graduated from Longfellow and
Burbank Junior High. Then both girls went to Berkeley High
School, -but the youngest girl became disappointed because there
was prejudice among the teachers toward the black students.

The black students said they would not give them an A; they
would give them a B. If they earned an A, the teachers would
give them a B.

That s what they felt? .

Yes, that s what they felt. That happened. They would see
white students who performed less in class than they did, and
they would get an A. So the two girls became discouraged about
that, and the youngest girl who was going to be a nurse,
insisted she had all of her studies outlined, grade by grade,
and took those subjects, so when she went into the hospital, she
had her algebra and her chemistry. That was done by a young
teacher. When she went into high school, he mapped out all the
subjects that she should take, grade by grade. And complete.

She said specifically that she did not want the teachers
to give her anything, but she wanted what she earned. If she
earned a B, she wanted it. If she earned a C, she wanted it.
If she earned her A, she wanted it.

Then she chose to go to University High School.

251a

Chall: Where was that? I don t know that. Is that in Berkeley?

Albrier: That was old Merritt College down here on Grove, below Alcatraz
Avenue. That was University High School. Many of the students
from the university came down and did their sub teaching in this
high school. They graded the students through the university
standards rather than through the high schools their standards
were very high. It was a girls school.

Chall: Was it in the Oakland school district?

Albrier: It was run by the city of Oakland. When she transferred there,
a friend of mine lived near that high school; so she stayed
with her in order to get the residence requirement. She was
very happy there. She said the teachers didn t give you any
thing; they didn t cater to you. But they did give you what you
earned.

Chall: Were there other black students there?

Albrier: Yes, the majority were Oakland students, as it was an Oakland
high school.

My other daughter finished Berkeley High. I told them
something that has happened today. A great many of the students
came here and they would all talk, and discuss problems. I told
them to stay in Berkeley High. If those teachers were so rigid,
or if through their prejudice, they made them study to get an A
and they earned an A, but they gave them a B they were favoring
them, because when they got outside of high school and they went
to the university, they had to compete. They were stronger and
more able to compete. If those teachers gave them a B and they
hadn t earned a B, they were doing them a disfavor. Indirectly,
they were favoring them. Most of them took for granted what I
said and they stayed in Berkeley High and were not so discontented
afterwards.

Now they re giving them grades that they don t earn,
them through and they can t read or write.

Passing

Opening Nurses Training to Black Girls

Chall: That s what we hear.

What about your daughters? Did they both become professionals?
Are they both nurses?

252

Albrier: Yes, they re both nurses. My younger daughter graduated from

Highland Hospital. She was the third black girl that went into
Highland Hospital s training. We had some problems in getting
girls in training here into that hospital. Club women had to go
to bat for that.

The first girl went in training before Highland was built.
The hospital was out in East Oakland Fairmont was the main
hospital and the only hospital at that time, in the forties.
The same club that you have material on the East Bay Women s
Welfare Club and the Association of Colored Women s Clubs in the
Bay Area Miss Hettie Tilghman, who was one of the main leaders
and pioneers in club work in the Bay Area went to the supervisors
and asked the supervisors about black girls going in training.

Chall: That s the Board of Supervisors of Alameda County?

Albrier: Yes. They had a Dr. Black, who had supervision of the health

department, who kept them out and said that he wasn t willing to
open up the training to Negro girls yet. He said that every
year. So the next time they went to the supervisors, they had
with them Walter Gordon, and Walter Gordon challenged Dr. Black
and told him, "Now, we pay taxes and we support that hospital,
and all girls who qualify and want to go in training should be
accepted in training." He said to the supervisors, "You are
elected and we may not forget that." Dr. Black said when they
built a new hospital, which was Highland, he would consider black
girls going in training and accepting them into training.

When Highland was built, the same group of women sent some
girls out to apply and they were not accepted. So they went to
the supervisors again. Again, they had with them Walter Gordon,
who was then president of the NAACP. They decided to accept the
black girls into training. But they did not know about them
staying in the dormitory with the white girls. They decided
that the black girls would stay home, and it cost the county
forty-five dollars a month for a nurse s expenses. That included
her laundry and her room, and other equipment that she needed
that the hospital gave. They would pay the black girls forty-
five dollars and let them stay home.

There were two girls who thought that was quite a bit of
money at that time. It was during the Depression. They thought
about their families needing the money and how it would help
their families. They enrolled and went back and forth home.

253

Albrier: We found out later there was discrimiantion all the way through.
These girls could not go into the nice sitting room that was in
the dormitory off from the hospital for the white girls who were
in training who stayed there. We found out that the black girls
had to get up as early as six o clock in the morning because one
lived in West Oakland, to get the bus on time, to get on the wards
at seven o clock. When she got out there, she met the white
girls who were just coming out they d had a nice shower and
been to a hot breakfast walking through the glass-way halls to
the wards to begin their work. We found out that their sitting
room [for the black girls] was down in the basement. It was
just a steamer rug and a chair, where they went to rest.

So, a bunch of women, not Miss Tilghman an&lt; i the others
thought that they should wait a little while but a bunch of club
women got together and said, "We won t wait another year. We
won t stand for those girls to be treated another year who are
going into the hospitals to be trained. They will stay in the
dormitories where the other girls stay." They got hold of
Dr. Black and they read the riot act to Dr. Black and told him
they would get the community in behind it, especially the taxpayers,

When my daugher, Anita, went in training, she was assigned
to a room. It was during the war period when they called nurses
"cadets" and they had a uniform something like a cadet. She
was assigned to a room all by herself. There were several
girls, friends of hers that she met one of them was a doctor s
daughter who lived in Piedmont. I forget where the other girl
lived. But these were white girls. All these girls had gone to
school and around with each other. They were assigned to rooms
together some three or four but Anita was still in this room
by herself. This room was one of the instructor s rooms.

They wanted to know why and how come Anita rated so high that
she was in a room all by herself and they were crowded up in
rooms together [chuckles]. They said it was because Anita was a
Negro girl and they didn t put the Negro girls in with the white
girls. Those girls said, "We ll settle that."

They were in Anita s room more than they were in their room.
There were two beds in there. They would get their lessons, and
talk, and sleep, in the other bed with Anita to show them that
they did not object to her. They gradually broke down some of
that discrimination in the hospital.

Chall: Was Anita your older girl?

Albrier: No, she s the younger one. My older girl got her training...
She married and lived in Monterey. She did a lot of Red Cross
work. Some of the Red Cross officials advised her that she did

254

Albrier: such excellent work for the Red Cross that she should become

a nurse. And she felt that she would like to be a nurse. She
went into training at the Salinas County Hospital and graduated
from that hospital as a nurse.

Chall: Was she married when she got her nurse s training?

Albrier: Yes. She lived at home on the weekends. Later, she was divorced
from her husband .

Chall: Is she in nursing now?

Albrier: No. She s married to a colonel. She does some nursing in the
hospital, on-call. Anita, the youngest girl, got her degree in
business administration. She s now doing rehabilitation work
for seven insurance firms and has her own business.

Chall: She graduated as a nurse first?

Albrier: Yes, she graduated from Highland.

Chall: And then got another degree in business administration?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Where did she take that?

Albrier: San Francisco State.

Chall: My, she s ambitious. Now she has her own business.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: She s the one I met here, then.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Where does your other daughter live now?

Albrier: They re in Fort Dix, New Jersey. They re stationed in Fort Dix,
New Jersey.

Pride in Her Children

Chall: Do you think that your daughters were typical of black girls
at that period when they were going through high school and
considering their careers as they did? Were they typical of
their age group, do you think?

255

Albrier: Yes. They were. They had a lot of activities. When they were
going to school, there were activities. Some of the activities
disturbed me because, at that time, there was an extreme radical
element. They were invading the university and held quite a few
activities up at the university. They would meet with this other
element that I felt was a little too radical.

Chall: What did you do about that?

Albrier: I tried to steer them away from that. My pastor, Reverend

Arthur Johnson, helped a lot with that. Finally, they weaned
away themselves. It got too radical for them.

Chall: Have either of your girls followed in any way at all in your
footsteps, that is, in terms of being active in the black
community?

Albrier: Yes, both of them have. In fact, the boy is, too. They re very
active and their action is in different lines.

Chall: But in civil rights.

Albrier: Yes, in civil rights.

Chall: What is the line of action each one has followed?

Albrier: They were interested in their school activities. Also, the
boy was a Boy Scout and the girls were Camp Fire Girls and
in the youth YWCA. The youth encountered discrimination and
racism in their organizations as well as the adults. They, too,
were active in civil rights.

In fact, all of the children, when I began to be active
in politics, took a part in politics, too. That period, day and
time, a great many of the kids were active. They were curious
about it. They would sit and listen at Roosevelt s fireside
chats and they would discuss it in school and in history classes.
Then when we would have activities and were campaigning, they
would do a lot of the stenciling work, ringing doorbells, and
talking to people.

Chall: They haven t given it up, then?

Albrier: No.

Chall: Or turned against it?

Albrier: No.

256

Chall: When they were growing up, was there any concern on your part and
on the part of your husband as to whether or not they would marry
within the black community? Was intermarriage ever a problem?

Albrier: No, intermarriage never was a problem. Only myself and my

husband felt we told them that we felt they should marry within
their own race because there would be a better understanding. The
time hadn t come when we thought interracial marriages panned
out very well, but later we felt that it would when people began
to communicate with each other and to work with each other. But
that day was to come yet. Although we said you cannot say who
you might love; you love a person not because of their color.
You re attracted in other ways to them. We wouldn t object to
anyone they married. If we were to prefer, we preferred that
they marry within their own class.

Chall: What about your grandchildren? Have any of them intermarried?
Albrier: No.

Speaking on Black History in the Schools

Chall: You did a great deal of speaking in the schools. I came across
notices that you used to go out and speak on discipline in the
home. Then you spoke on Negro history. When you came back from
Africa, you did a tremendous amount of speaking, particularly
the Oakland schools, but I think the Berkeley schools, too. You
gave me that sheaf of envelopes yesterday that showed where
you d been. Why did you do all that?

Albrier: When my children were in school, I was active. After they were
out of the Berkeley schools, I still remained active in the PTA.
I think I spent twenty-five or twenty-six years in the PTA,
being active in the membership and working with the PTA because
I was interested in the children and was interested in what
happened to Berkeley when we were desegregating the schools
and having integrated schools. But -before that thought ever
came into the minds of people, I was active in the PTA. For a
great while in. the early twenties and thirties, the schools were
integrated due to the small population of ethnic groups. They all
attended school together where they lived.

I remember my grandmother helping me so much by being active
in the PTA with the teachers and everything, and then in schools
helping and doing things in the schools. So I felt that if
parents wanted to communicate with teachers and wanted to be a

Berkeley Daily Gazette, February 8, 1971

PTA Honors Mrs. Frances A Ibrier

. California Congress of
Parents-Teachers highest
honor the Honorary Service
Award, was bestowed on Mrs.
Prances M. Albrier of Berke
ley by the PTA s 16* District
at its annual Founders Day
Dinner held on Jack London
Square, Oakland. The Berke
ley community leader was one
of two recipients so honored,
the other being David Vickers,
who is chairman of the Com
munity Drug Council s Crisis
Center in Newark, the city
where he resides.

In presenting the award to
Mrs. Albrier (it was known
formerly as the Life Mem
bership Award and carries
with it a scholarship grant in
Mrs. Albrier s name to be
given to a student majoring in
education), it was noted that
the 72-year-old social worker
was being honored especially
for her work with the In-
tergroup Education Project in
Berkeley, for which she served
as membership chairman for
two years; for her work since
1960 as a School Resource VoK
unteer and speaker on African
culture both here and in the
Oakland schools; and most
particularly, for inspiring such
interest in service to youth
through PTA that she was re
sponsible for reactivating a
PTA unit at an Oakland junior
high school. ;

The many other paths of ser
vice Frances Albrier has poi-
neered besides the one s men
tioned above would have taken
all evening for the dinner s
toastmistress to describe, as
the Berkeley lady has devoted
herself to a variety of major
causes.

Born In Mount Vernon, New
York and educated at Booker
T. Washington School in Tus-
kegee, Alabama and Howard
University, she came to Ber
keley with her father in 1922
and has lived in the same
house on Oregon Street since
1934.

Her late husband, Willie Al

brier, was a bartender on the
Southern Pacific s lounge cars,
and during those years his
wife was vice president of the
Women s Auxiliary of the AFL
Dining Car Cooks and Waiters
Union.

Her interest in Berkeley
schools and PTA began with
her three children s entry into
school. Her son, Albert Jack
son, of New York, is now chief
engineer on the hospital Ship
HOPE, presently based at Ja
maica; her daughter, Betty, is
married to Col. Roy E. Kim-
ball, USA, and living with her
husband in Stuttgart, Ger
many; and another daughter,
Anita Turner, resides with her
husband in East Oakland.
Mrs. Turner is a graduate
nurse, and like her brother
and sister, was educated in the
Berkeley Schools, beginning at

group, to press for hiring of
non-Caucasion school teachers
and other school personnel in
this city. The club was com
posed primarily of mothers of
.Negro girls who had graduated
as teachers from the Universi-
ty of California, but because of
existing hiring policies could
not secure employment as
teachers in the Berkeley
schools.

The women made a survey
of these graduates who wanted
to teach in their home city but
were forced instead to go
South, East or into the Califor
nia, valley if they wanted
teaching .positions. The survey
in the UC neighborhood also
showed that 5,000 non-
Caucasion Berkeleyans owned
homes and paid taxes there;
so Frances Albrier s next step
was to run for the City Council

Longfellow, where their on a No Taxation Without
mother was the PTA s clothing Representation" platform.

"There wasn t even a Negro
or Oriental clerk or janitor in

room ch

During the thirties Frances

Alhrier "was a Social Service our schools then," she recalls
caseworker for the state, and wryly,
in 1938 she ran for a post -on Mrs. Aibrier piled up a re-
the Democratic Central Com- spectable vote but she lost the
mittee of Alameda County, election. That didn t matter.
She was elected and served as she had had the opportunity to
a Democratic Central Commit-* talk to hundreds of people, and
teewoman for 18 years. . her subject was discrimination

During the war years she in hiring. East Bay Welfare
was a welder at Kaiser Ship- Women s Club took the results
yards. At the same time she O f their survey, and their rec-
found time to work as a volun- ommendation that the 14th and
teer in the Red -Cross motor isth Amendments calling for
corps, in USD, for the Fannie hiring on the basis of merit re-
Wall Children s Home, Visiting gardless of race and color be
Nurses Assn., and for the the new guideline, to the
NAACP, who awarded Frances Board of Education and the
Albrier its prestigious "Fight Schools Superintendent.
for Freedom Award" in 1954. Many conversations later,

As far back as 1938 when policy was changed and Miss
she ran for the Democratic Ruth Acty was the first Negro
Central Committee, she sought teacher to be employed in the
a ban on racial bans, and in
1939, Mrs. Albrier went to
work in earnest to stop racial
discrimination in the hiring po
licy of the Berkeley schools.

That year with other con
cerned .women she formed the
Eastbay Welfare Women s
Club, a political non-partisan

Berkeley schools. The doors
ivere opened, and the lady who
is credited with opening them
is Frances Albrier.

The determined lady also
was instrumental in organizing
picket lines at local business
establishments where racial
discrimination was practiced
in hiring, and in .1961 she was
spokesman for a delegation of
housewives demonstrating for
peace at Congressman Jeffrey
Cohelan s soffice.

But Frances Albrier hasn t
retired. Besides her daily
duties at the Berkeley Senior
Center on University Ave.
where she is the Senior Com
munity Representative work
ing there under the city s So
cial Planning Committee, she
continues her School Resource
Volunteer work at all the Oak
land schools and at seven or
eight Berkeley schools. She
began this program on her re
turn from Africa where she at
tended Nigeria s Independence
Celebration with her good
friend, newspaperwoman
Edith Austin. They visited
Ghana, and Senegal, also, on
that 1960 trip, and Mrs. Al
brier uses the carvings and
fabrics she brought back from
those countries to illustrate
her talks in the schools.

Her membership in the
Assn. for the Study of Negro
Life and History qualifies her
well for speaking on another of
her favorite subjects;-
"Famous Negroes." "

The Berkeley civic leader s
affiliations also include the Na-
tional Council of Negro Wo
men s Club, of whose Northern-
California Federation she has.
served as president _

257

Albrier: part of the schools, they should be active and take part in the
programs. The PTA was one way of doing it, one way of keeping
up with your children; and one way of helping the children by
your communicating and helping the teachers, and being friendly
with the teachers that were teaching them. And I felt that the
teachers would feel closer to students where the parents were
really interested.

Then in my neighborhood, there were a great many friends who
were employed and they could not go to the PTA meetings. Some
times, if it was evenings, they could. Otherwise, mostly with
the fathers, they were handicapped. They were too tired to even
go to a meeting. I felt that they couldn t sit up and discuss
anything at the meeting, because they were just too tired, and
they didn t go. A great many times, the mothers felt that way,
too, when they came in after they had looked after their own
home work. After being employed all day.

Chall: It is a long day.

Albrier: Then they would rely on me. I was the spokesman for a great
many of the parents and would be troubleshooter between the
parents and the children and the teachers. If the teachers had
any trouble with those children, they would say, "Mrs. Albrier,
would you check Johnny s mother and tell her he s naughty in
school? He won t get his lesson. He won t obey. Will you
convey to her that message and see what she can do about it?"
And I would.

Chall: That was an important role you played, then. And the parents
expected you they relied on you, then, to help them?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Now then, when you went speaking, that was of course, at another
period. This was a message, then, that you were carrying to the
children about black history and their roots in Africa later on.

Albrier: I was surprised in the schools that very little was known about
black history. Then I was surprised in talking to the parents,
and those parents went to schools in the South in the southern
states and they had had no black history. I guess I thought
because I went to school in Tuskegee and. had black history
that all of the schools in the South where there were black
children and black teachers, had black history, but I found out
they hadn t.

I took a great deal of interest in black history in the
schools, especially among the teachers themselves first, because

258

Albrier: when I would speak and talk about black history, the teachers

became involved themselves. That s why they invited me to their
classes.

Chall: So first you started with the teachers?

Albrier: I started with the teachers with talking to them. And the PTAs.
One PTA said, "Now we have black history month coming up" and I
had this literature from the National Negro Historical Society
in Washington, D.C., that was started by Carter G. Woodson,
Mrs. Bethune and others I had this literature and this data for
Negro History Week.

Then I just had to start from grass roots up, telling them
about Negro History Week, and why Carter G. Woodson started a
Negro History Week. Why he first started that association in
1915; then why he started Negro History Week in 1926, because the
black people in America had no history. They didn t know where
they were from. They didn t know what part in history they
played. They hadn t been taught the history of Africa and those
countries. They hadn t been taught the history, and the part
they played in this country. A great many of them had heard of
Harriet Tubman. Some of them knew of her. They had heard of
Frederick Douglass, but they didn t know too much about him.
They didn t know what part they played in the government or
anything.

Chall: So you just took it upon yourself to give them the background.
Those were early days before anyone talked about black history
except the historical society. It wasn t as widespread as it is
today.

Albrier: No, the historical societies hadn t started when I started to
talk about black history. I started that in the schools with
my kids. I had taught my kids black history. They had read
the life of Frederick Douglass; they had read the life of
Booker T. Washington, and I had told them more than what they d
read. They had read the lives of all those people who worked:
Mrs. St. Pierre Ruff in who started the black women s organizations,
and why. I had all these books in the home here. And about the
Indians in their play when they would make sarcastic remarks
about the Indians in the classes my kids were on their feet,
just like that.

The schools were just beginning to learn. The teachers
themselves the white teachers themselves, didn t know much
either. They realized then that was a part of history that they
themselves had been left out of, and that they didn t know. They
didn t realize about John Brown and the slavery days, and the

259

Albrier: people who fought against slavery; the white statesman who fought
against slavery and who was with Frederick Douglass.
Mary Ellen Pleasant and all of those people that we have.

The Unforgettable Trip to Africa, 1960

Chall: When you came back from Africa, then you did a tremendous amount
of speaking, too, on your experience, not only to the schools,
but to all kinds of organizations around. That must have been a
very exciting experience for you.

Albrier: Yes it was, because Africa was coming towards the forefront in
all of the world as a country. Masses of people and countries
looked at Africa as the dark continent; as savages and head-
hunters and all of that type of thing that had been written about
Africa. People here wanted to know about it, and they wanted
to talk with somebody who had gone to Africa. I happened to be
at the same conference that you saw the picture of Franklin Williams
and others in. [Stanford University August, 1960]

Chall: Oh yes, one of the local conferences.

Albrier: In Palo Alto it was held. And Edith Austin said to me at that

conference. . . .Mr. Albrier had just been dead about two years
and I had planned to take a trip, but to plan it after I had gotten
over his passing. She said to me, "Albrier, come go with me to
Africa, to Nigeria. I m going to Nigeria. I m being sent by
the papers; I m going to represent the black news media at the
Nigerian independence."* So I said, "That sounds good. I think
I ll do it."

So, in six weeks, I was all ready to go.
Chall: That was a spur of the moment decision

Albrier: To Nigeria, to this independence. I think I gave you the letter.
I wrote to Miss Height and told her that I was going to Africa.
I knew they were going to send somebody to represent the National
Council of Negro Women over there, to Nigeria.

*Edith Austin is a reporter for the Sun Reporter.

259a
Oakland Tribune. Sunday, March 19, 1961

From Slave Ship to Jet

For Mrs. W. A. (Frances) ., lt was just at midnight,
Albrier it was a pilgrimage, ^ ^g^ were dimmed as

they differ in language and

iw .^^ culture, they are- one in

the triumphant return trip of ^ Union Jack descended," j brotherhood. The coat of arms
a journey begun more than reca iied Mrs. Albrier, "Then i is unity and faith. "
200 years ago by the ances- ^ e green, white and green Nigerian girls are given the
tors of American Negroes. Nigerian flag rose into the same educational opportuni-
They had come as captives spotlight. People cheered ties as boys, Mrs. Albrier
In crowded, disease ridden and cried and kissed each said, "There are women bar-
slave ships. She was zooming other and said glory to God risters who were educated at
by jet above the very seas for in that moment a nation; the University of London, Ifj
where they had endured was made for 40 million andja woman wants to have a ca-
storm, starvation and cruel- won them the right to have ajreer she has only to prove

ties during weeks and months place in the councils of the

of travel. . : - - world."

Mrs. Albrier, past president Mrs. Albrier caDed atten-
of San Francisco Chapter, Na- tion to the means through

her ability to study for it. I
met Miss Margaret Ekpo, first
woman member of the Ni
gerian Parliament who some

tional Council of Negro Worn- which Nigeria won inde~pend- ! time ago established a sewing
en* is a resident of Berkeley, ence after years of prepara- institute. Nigerian girls are
at 1621 Oregon. She was the tion "Dr. Nnamde Azkikinewe studying nursing and mid-
dnly representative from the who had cursed Britian for wifery at a beautiful modern
Eastbay in a party of eight years said, we give credit to hospital. ^Nigerian women^are
Invited to attend the cere- her for ^ imperishable leg- P? 1 ""
monies of Nigenan Independ- acy of ^ of law resp ect for |r
ence in Lagos, capital of the human ^^^ and free dom. i
new member of the British r^^ had been prepared and ^
Commonwealth. educated for independence. _*__ _.

"Africa is no longer the Officials had been educated in Y?:" C ^^"W"

i- ^-

among them the Tuskegee j contrast to the turmoil ba ^ bra ? ch v T hi ? h J" P atron ;
Alums in San Francisco, on a^conflSof toe Congo, Mrs. Bed excl i} slvel y by Negroes."
her experiences whUe visiting j^rier to ld of the unity of
Nigeria. "The jet plane has ^ ^Q ^^g ^ different cul-
made next door neighbors of ^.^ and languages under Sir
the African nations and the A Bu A Kar B alewar, Nige-
United States. It is only 15 rian prime mmister
hours from New York to Ni- "There has been no threat
geria. The earth is fast be- to ^^ for ^ solved ^ ai
coming what Wendell ^WUlfle prob i em a i on g time ago. As
caned it, one world. ^y as 1914 Br i ta in started

Noting that the year of ^vinz Nigerians. More than
African turmoil in shaking off 1(m stud ents, men and wom-
the shackles of colonialism is en flre now ready to ^ ^^
also that of the centennial ot uated from English universi-
the American Civil War, Mrs ^ Eighteen years ago Ni .
^Albrier said, "Many Africans rf was admitted to the
favored Patrice Lumumba be- g ablnet ..
cause he was closer to the ^ gpite of ^ j act ^ &i 70
people than^ the Wgher-ups Cftnt Qf Nigeria S 40 m il-
and had made an ardent fight Uon ^ Moslems and 30 per
for independence. Trouble is C0nt christlanS) ^5. Albrier
quite liRely to continue unless ^ no schism . IThough
they can quiet the people
down in countries surround
ing the Congo."

Mrs. Albrier still feels a
surge of emotion as she re
calls- the ceremonies of inde
pendence, attended by Prin-j
cess Alexandra of Kent andj
Governor General and_Ladjq

259b

ACT csujp
curud, ^O x^rvj3Ajj\.rrux-

^&gt;ciimab-

/C)C5n\Q^ OJUL

CLK&gt;UJX)

260

Albrier: I went with the press, but I didn t get a press card to use.

I was to represent the California Voice. At that time, when they
gave me the credentials to represent the California Voice,
it was too late to get it in the press media over there. Because
there were thousands of papers from all over the world there.
However, I was a guest of the press; so I had a press, badge with
Edith Austin. I got to see more than the average tourist.

Chall: Oh, you certainly must have.

Albrier: I was admitted into many other activities that the average

tourist was not admitted to, but when we got to New York, there
was the Ebony vice-president and his wife, and the social editor
of Ebony magazine. There was the Pittsburgh Courier editor.

[end tape 9, side 1; begin tape 9, side 2]

Chall: You met with all the very great persons of the press, then, when
you got to New York, and you traveled with them all the time?

Albrier: Yes. The tour leader the tour travel agency had booked us all
together as a group. We traveled over there with them. Our
first stop was in Portugal; then we left Portugal, and we stopped
in Liberia, just one day. Then we left Liberia and we stopped in
Dakar, Senegal, then Ghana, Accra. It was there that I met the
daughter of a chief.

We were fortunate to be there at the time of year that the
chiefs had their annual festival. The tribes would have the
chiefs festival, where they would honor the chiefs. They would
have lots of food and dancing and a good time, honoring the
chief. We were just in time to be there.

I met the queen mother and the queen mother had been reared
in one of the missionary schools, and spoke English very fluently.
She s passed now, but her daughter and I are still good friends
and still correspond with each other.

After we left there, we went to Lagos, Nigeria. We were
there three weeks. That was during the independence celebration.
We were there when we were guests of the queen s cousin. I think
it s in my scrapbook.

Chall: Yes, it is.

Albrier: The festivals were beautiful. There were so many of them, so
many displays. So many tribes came in. It s regrettable that
that last war that they had over there in Nigeria, many of those
people were killed.

261

Chall: Yes, some of these states had started out with such great hopes

and they ve had such difficulties; independence isn t all that easy.

Albrier: No. They began to fight among themselves, those different tribes.
There was one tribe of them that was very well educated. They
received all of the big jobs that the British gave them, until
that made a jealousy between the other tribes. Besides, part
of Nigeria is Christian, and the other part is Moslem.

Chall: That s hard. What went on inside of you while you were in

Africa in Ghana, and then those three weeks in Nigeria? Your
emotions and

Albrier: I was curious all the way about the people and how they lived in

the tribes. I was interested in the tribes. I visited one tribe.
I told many of the mothers over here about our distance with
children and the children in the tribes are not . The mother
doesn t have to worry about the children. Everybody takes care
of the children.

I remember one lady I asked, said she had four daughters and
only one was there. I asked her where the others were. She
said, "Oh, they re down with their uncles and their aunts and I
haven t seen them for three, four nights." What happened they re
so close together that their uncles and aunts if Janie comes in,
why Janie sits down at the table and has dinner, and if it s late,
she s put to bed given a bath and put to bed. Her mother is way
up at the other end in her house. But she has no worry about her
children, because they are with some of their relatives, and every
relative feels a responsibility for the children of the tribe.

Chall: It s a big family.

Albrier: And they take care of each other and each other s children. There
was that closeness. If there was an older man sitting on the
corner, I would give him a present a pound talk to him and give
him a pound. All of the children would come up and thank me. They
greatly appreciated that I was acknowledging and being kind to a
grandparent. It was that tribal feeling that tribal closeness
that we have lost over here, that they have over there.

Chall: Do you think that s what held some of the slaves together in the
South, on the plantations in the early days?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: It s a little hard to keep it in big cities, isn t it?

262

Albrier: I should say.
Chall: In urban areas.

Albrier: I was very much interested in their art work and the things that
they did. I was interested in the huge dye vats, how they made
those beautiful colors out of bark, seeds, and berries and roots.
They made these beautiful colors. They can make a blue that can t
be duplicated. Then how they weave, raise, and spin the cotton.
I used to see my grandmother spin cotton, then make it into thread
and make it into socks and things. I could see where that came
from. Or they spin the cotton into thread and then they weave it
into cloth; then they dye it in these huge vats, different colors.

Chall: I see, so it s dyed afterwards.

Albrier: Yes. Then the main carving places where they do all of this

carving. They haven t had any lessons in art, like we have over
here. They stick with their knives and just carve that hard wood,
carve all kinds of figures.

Chall: It s an exciting kind of sculpture, really. I love it the African
sculpture. And It had a great influence on the European painters.
You saw them then when they were doing it, quite a while ago,
when it was still pretty authentic kind of work.

Albrier: In Nigeria England has taken out all of their most beautiful

art work, and it s in England. That year, they made it a law that
nothing could be taken out of Nigeria anymore, of art.

Chall: Do they have a museum where they put it away?

Albrier: Yes. They have beautiful ivory carvings. It s wonderful how

people haven t had any lessons. We have to have years of lessons,
and they just sit down and do it.

Chall: Don t they pass this from father to son, so that some of those
people have been skilled through generations?

Albrier: Yes. It has. It s been passed from father to son, the same as
the weaving and that type of work with the girls.

263

Traveling as a Child in Europe, 1910-1913

Chall: You had been in Europe before you went abroad to Africa. I think
I read this in some maybe it was a newspaper article. When was
this , that you had traveled to Europe?

Albrier: I traveled to Europe ever since I was a little girl.
Chall: Really?

Albrier: With this lady that my grandmother reared. Her name is Mrs. Schwartz,
My grandmother reared a girl and two boys that were her master s
children. Their mother died. After the Civil War, she was given
the house with these children. She was asked to raise them and
take care of them. Mrs. Leila Schwartz went East to school. It
wasn t her name. Her married name was Schwartz. She married this
man who was very wealthy. Ke died and left her his wealth.

My grandmother used to go up to New York City to see her
she d send for her every summer. One summer she took me with
her. She said to me I was a little over twelve "I d like for
you to go with me. I d like for you to travel with me," because
she had had heart trouble. It was nitroglycerine pills I know
what it was now, but I didn t then.

She would get kind of dizzy spells and kind of swoon off, and
you d have to watch her and slip a pill under her tongue and they d
bring her out. She had had some other maids with her that had
stolen a lot from her jewelry so she felt that I d watch her
more, I guess. So she asked my grandmother if I couldn t travel
with her; she was going to Europe.

Chall: My goodness! How old were you?

Albrier: I immediately said, "No indeed. I m not going to no Europe with
you. You re not getting me over there and mistreat me. That s
too far away from my grandmother." My grandmother looked at me
and said, "She won t mistreat you. ^ reared her. She will be
able to show you things and give you an education, in traveling,
because I got an education by traveling with her, that I will never
be able to afford to give you. You go. She ll take care of you
all right. She ll be all right with you. You will get a wonderful
education traveling that you will not receive any other way."
So I went with her.

Chall: How old were you on your first trip?

264

Albrier: I was a little past twelve.
Chall: Where did you go?

Albrier: We went to Europe to England first, and we went to Paris, France.
Everything that I saw in my schoolbooks I wanted to see, and she
saw that I saw it. I went to the museum I read in the geography
and in the books about the museum, the Louvre and the Luxembourg
and all that beautiful art and pictures. And that was the first
thing that I wanted to see when we went to Paris was the Louvre
and the Luxembourg. She would go with me and would tell the
attendant she would tip him generously with money "This is my
girl. You take her and show her everything and take care of her."
And she would go on about her business. They would take me around
and show me everything, and tell me about every picture and every
piece of art.

Chall: What an experience!

Albrier: Yes. In England, I went through all of those old castles and heard
all of that horrible history. [Laughter]

Chall: You really had an adventure. Did you go again? Were there many
years, summers, that you went with her?

Albrier: Three years I traveled with her.
Chall: Different places?
Albrier: To different places.

Chall: So you covered Europe, then. That means Italy as well as France
and England

Albrier: Yes. She had friends all over Europe. She would go and visit
them.

Chall: Would ahe stay in their homes?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: So you stayed in people s homes?

Albrier: I stayed in their homes with her. I stayed in her room. My

grandmother was right. I think about all the wealth that I saw.
But that made me almost an atheist.

Chall: When you went through the churches, is that it? Or what?

265

Albrier: No. You take in England in all these wealthy homes: wealth,
silver eating out of silver and all of that help, and all of
those poor people. I would tell her, "I want to see England. I
want to see where the poor people live. I want to see the
factories." I remember her telling the butler to take me down to
see the factories where they made cloth.

In going through to see these factories, I saw these poor
children, with just G-strings and rags. It was worse than
New York. I used to rave about New York to my grandmother
about those tenement houses where the poor people lived. My
grandmother would lecture to me how fortunate ^ was , and look at
those people, and that I should always serve God and love God,
and all of that. That was my grandmother s logic.

I saw all these poor little children, some of them half -naked,
going through those factories. I d see them weaving the cloth;
making the cloth. These people working. And then afterwards,
they d come from work and go to these dull, old tenement houses
dirty streets and things.

Chall: The butler actually took you into places like that?

Albrier: Yes. Then he d take me home. I said to my grandmother, "You

know one thing? I don t believe there s any God. There can t be
any God." She said, "How come you re talking like that?" I said,
"How come some people have so much? Look at Mrs. Schwartz. She
has more than you. And you believe in God. And you worship God.
She has more than you; she has more than a lot of people. Her
friends have more. And look at the poor people have so little;
they have so much. How come God let that happen?"

Chall: How did she answer that?

Albrier: She told me it wasn t God; it was people themselves misusing what
God put on this earth for all of his children. I said, "I just
don t see how there s any God. There must not be any God. I
wouldn t let that happen. I d take all of that money away from
some of them and divide it, and let people live happy." Then my
grandmother got so that she didn t want me to go to those places,
or to see the poor people.

I said, "Do you know some of those people don t have anything
to eat, hardly. They live in darkness dark rooms, dark streets,
dark everything." And in those days, those tenements were
terrible. They were awful places.

Chall: These were the London tenements you saw.

266

Albrier: Yes. Poor people. I didn t see so much of it in Paris. They

were there, but I didn t see them. But in London, I saw plenty of
them. In New York, I saw where a lot of the poor people live, and
the poor blacks live, the poor Italians, and the foreigners. It
was a revelation. It put you in a quandary to go from one extreme
to the other.

Chall: Particularly if you were living in the very height of wealth, as
you were when you traveled. Large homes, butlers and servants,
silver

Albrier: People sleeping in satin sheets. Then others didn t have any
sheets.

Chall: That s right. Hardly a change of clothing.

Albrier: Little children begging you for some money and some things.

Chall: Had you read any of Charles Dickens novels before you went

abroad? I just wondered if it reminded you of what he d written.

Albrier: I think I read one, where I think he spoke of that.

Chall: His descriptions in his day of the poverty in the streets are

very graphic. It sounds as if you were seeing something of the
same.

That was pretty early, wasn t it. That was before World War I?
Albrier: Yes, before that first big war.

Chall: Yes, that s a long time ago. You certainly have had a broad

education, one way or another, haven t you? But that certainly
was an exposure not to forget.

Albrier: Then I went back to England. [1960] Coming through, we came back

through London from Africa. I didn t see those horrible places

then. It wasn t as bad. It was bad enough for the poor people,
but they lived better than they did in those days.

Chall: So, England has changed quite a bit?

Albrier: Yes. I could see why the people wanted to get away from England
and come over to this country.

Chall: Speaking of churches and religion, you didn t become an atheist,
obviously.

267

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

No, my grandmother saw to that. She kept working with me and talk
ing to me until she got that out of my mind that it was God s
doing that there was such a difference. And it was, it was
shocking to me. As a youngster, I couldn t see through that.

Here was this very wealthy woman who had all this finery and
everything she wanted. Her sheets were satin. I saw satin sheets
long before they came on the market. If I told her I wanted to go
shopping, she would think nothing of giving me twenty- five dollars
and telling me to go get it and keep it keep the money. My
grandmother had to watch me with her , that I didn t lose the value
of money and the earning of money. So she stopped her from being
so liberal in giving me money like that.

Yet, she was the most unhappy person. She was very unhappy
for some reason. She never could get herself together after her
husband passed. Here she was with all of this wealth, and she
wasn t happy. And I was poor, and I was happy as a lark!
[Laughter]

It s hard to figure.

Yes. Then to see the contrast of how some people can live with
everything in life, and others have nothing, and have so little in
material things and still be happy.

Civil Rights Organizations

National Negro Congress

Chall: I wanted to talk to you about some civil rights organizations here.
You ve been active in several. You were on the board of directors
in 1938 of the National Negro Congress. I don t know how long
that lasted. Some people said that it became quite leftist at
one time.

Albrier: It didn t last very long. That was started by A. Philip Randolph.
It was based on training and employment. That was when so many
of the black workers throughout the country were unemployed. He
had organized the Pullman porters union and was still, active in
the unions, and saw so much discrimination in the unions, and so
many of the crafts eliminating black people out of the unions
not taking them into the unions at all so he organised the
Congress to get the people together in order to help themselves.

Profile of a Bay Area Leader

She s Been On The Civil Rights Battle Field A
Long, Long Time Even Before It Was Popular

By Madison Harvey

Synonymous with the growth
and development of racial pro
gress in Northern California Is
the story of Frances Redgray
Albrier, a Berkeley woman who
has long been in the fight.

Her story Is the story of the
struggle to get Negroes into the
mainstream of the Bay Area
economic, political, educational
and what-have-you life of the com
munity.

Frances was born in Mt Ver-
non, New York, and upon the death
of a parent went to live with her
grandmother In Tuskegee, Ala
bama. Thus it was that she was
reared in that historic place and
was a student of the eminent men
of our race, Booker T. Washing
ton and George Washington Car
ver. Among her prized sou-
vcniers are papers bearing the
signature of Dr. Carver.

In Tuskegee, Frances attended
Children s House, a private
school, Tuskegee Institute, then
Fisk University for one year,
after which she switched to How
ard, where she graduated in 1920.

Also in 1920 came the first of
two marriages, when she was
married to William Albert Jack-
son. Now twice widowed, she is
the mother of three children:
William Albert, a marine en
gineer aboard the S.S. Hope, now
stationed in Guinea, Africa, and
two married daughters, Betty
KJmble, who lives with her army
major husband In the East, and
Anita Turner, a nurse In the
Bay Area.

About 1930, Frances came to
the west coast and almost im
mediately her letters of protest
about deplorable conditions in
the community began to appear
la the local press.

During the 1930 s, when most
of today s civil rights fighters
were not even born, Frances was
picketing business establish
ments in an effort to break down
hiring policies that were dis
criminatory. She was one of the
first women of the race to be
hired by Kaiser shipbuilders in
Richmond as a welder.

She was president of the La.
dies Auxiliary of Dining Car
Workers, Local 456, when that
organization held the first racial
tea at the Oakland Uptown YWCA.
She was active In the Linden St.
YWCA, and worked with Com-
munity Service Councils, a fore-

Frances Albrier

runner of the United Servl
Organization (USO) a recreation
al facility for service men.

In 1934 she became Mrs. Wil
lie A. Albrier. In 1936, she be
came active In politics and has
continued active till the present.
She ran unsuccessfully for Ber
keley City Council during the
30 s.

In 1938 she was elected to
the Alameda County Democratic
Central Committee and served
for 20 years, 4 of them as sec
retary. She served as campaign
manager for a number of poli
ticians, Including Governor Cul-
bert Olson and President Frank
lin D. Roosevelt. She is a member
of a large number of political
organizations.

Among the clubs she organized
was the Women s Welfare Com
mittee, which was instrumental
in getting Negro teachers in the
Berkeley School System.

The busy civic worker has
been involved, during her life
in California, in several pro
jects at the same time. Fore
most among her activities cur
rently is the San Francisco Neg
ro Cultural and Historical So
ciety, whose chief purpose is to
promulgate the study of Negro
history in the Bay Area.

For 20 years she has been a
member of the Berkeley NAACP
and is now a member of the
Executive Board. In addition to
her membership in several po
litical clubs, she also holds act-

Ive membership on local and
national women s clubs and has
held numerous offices.

Also among her accomplish
ments was her service to the Red
Cross during the war, for which
she has several awards. Her
travels include a trip to Africa
in 1960 to observe the Independ
ence celebrations of Nigeria.

Her home at 1621 Oregon St.,
Berkeley, is chock full of me
mentoes, souvenlers, scrapbooks
and pictures, but the hearty lady
spends no time in memories.
For her, they represent experi
ences which she uses to map the
icampalgn for her next ad venture.

Among the other activities that
claim the attention of the busy
Mrs. Albrier is membership in
the Friends of the Berkeley Pub

lic Library, Save San Francisco
Bay Association, international ,
Hospitality Center of the Bay
Area, Associated Sportsmen of
California, Longfellow School &gt;
(Berkeley) PTA, National Council
of Negro Women, Lilyof the West
Tabernacle of Daughters of Ta-
bor, Campanile Temple Daugh
ter of Elks, Hattie De Hart Past
Daughter Rulers Council, South-
gate Chapter O.E.S. Order of
Eastern Stars, Women s Art and
Industrial Club, and the Berkeley
Committee on Aging. She Is presi
dent of the Northern Federation
of Colored Women s Clubs.

Formerly a member of Parks
Chapel AME Methodist Church,
she is now part of the congre
gation of Downs Memorial Meth
odist, Berkeley.

Page 4 THE POST Saturday, May I, J965

268

Albrier: I think he drew many of us into the Congress and later the radical
element came in like they always do. They come in and gradually
work themselves up into offices. And when you know it, they have
taken over your organization. When that happened to the Congress,
A. Philip Randolph sent a message to all of us to withdraw. And
we did.

Those of us in the Bay Area were people like Tarea Pittman,
C.L. Dellums, myself we all were active in it. But when he
withdrew, we did also.

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

Chall: The one organization you had a long term interest in, were an

officer in, was the NAACP. I think I came across something that
indicated that you d been active since about 1936. What interested
me was that I found in your scrapbook a card that looked just
like an election card slate election card. It dealt with an
election to the NAACP board.

You called yourselves [reading] "progressive sincere candidates
to be elected to offices of your NAACP. President, George Vaughns;
Vice-President, James F. Davis; Secretary, Quetee Meneweather."
Those were the officers. Then for directors, "vote for five
only." There s Frances Albrier, Manitoba James, Roy Blackburn,
James W. Payne, E.A. Daly, and D.G. Gibson. You gave them six
names, of whom they could choose five.

Now, what was all that about? This was 1940, Mrs. Albrier.

Excuse me, let me tell you something else here. [Reading]
"A change is needed. Vote for these race-minded candidates."
[Laughter] Now, you ve got to tell me what was going on in the
NAACP in 1940.

Albrier: In the forties, a great many of us felt that the NAACP was not
taking the interest in the black people and the black citizens
like they should have. A great many of us felt that attorneys
were taking over the NAACP, and their interest was only in getting
cases that they could work on, when there were so many other issues
in the community that the NAACP should take on in the interests of
the people in the community. NAACP seemed to have fallen from
grace all over the country, not just here, that way.

Chall: Even in the forties, as early as that?

269

Albrier: Yes. We felt that we wanted people who were interested in the
poor people, and in the conditions of the people, and in
discrimination, and that would take a stand on these issues and
hold the line. We knew how NAACP came about, and it wasn t for
any certain class of black people; it was for all the black people
and especially the poor black people that needed the NAACP.

Chall: Were there many whites in the NAACP at that time, as officers?

Albrier: Yes, a few.

Chall: Do you remember whether you won that election in 1940?

Albrier: Only some of us won in the election.

Chall: Who was George Vaughns?

Albrier: He was an attorney one of the pioneers in the community.

We found out, too, in organizations like the NAACP, that
certain people get into it and get to thinking that it s their
organization and they have to run it, and everybody must do what
they wish to do, or do what they want to be done.

Chall: I see. So there could be dissension then, from time to time?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Just on a matter of personality as well as policy?

Albrier: Yes. Because at that time, we felt that more consideration should
have been given to the people in employment, and other cases came
up where we thought the NAACP should have been active and taken
hold where discrimination was.

Chall: At that time, it wasn t moving?
Albrier: No.
Chall: In 1940.

Albrier: Then, too, it wasn t a reflection on any of the officers who were
in there. It was to shake them up, to let them know that the
community would remove them and the community would go into action
if the work of the NAACP didn t go on, and if its objectives
weren t carried out.

270

Chall: Was the NAACP one of the organizations of the black community that
was really watched by more black people than other organizations,
let s say? Were a lot of black people interested in the NAACP?

Albrier: Well, the NAACP has been, and I guess it always will be, the

militant organization and the spokesman for the black people. It
has been ever since it began, because it s been left a legacy by
DuBois, by Walter White, and by all of those pioneers in NAACP.
Our last one was Roy Wilkins, The legacy is handed down from one
generation to the other.

Chall: Even though and we ll be talking about them other organizations
have come along. The NAACP seems to stay despite its ups and
downs.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: In this community I don t know all of them I haven t really made
a study of the NAACP but I ve come across various names. I
would guess that some of these people would have different ways
of dealing with the problems: H.T.S. Johnson, Walter Gordon,
Frankie Jones (a woman, of course), C.L. Dellums , and Tarea Pittman.
Some of these people are much more militant, I think, than others
were, at different times.

H.T.S. Johnson was supposed to be quite militant.

Albrier: Yes, he was. He was a minister, pastor of Taylor Memorial
Methodist Church pastor there for many years. He was very
militant and outspoken.

Chall: And Walter Gordon was not, as I understand it.

Albrier: Walter Gordon, in his day, he came in the early years. There

weren t so many black people in the Bay Area when he was in. He
was militant, but he took his time on things. He wasn t as out
spoken as a great many people thought he should be.

Chall: As Johnson had been?

Albrier: As Reverend Johnson

Chall: had been.

Albrier: No.

Chall: What difference did it make in terms of how far and where the Negro
went with respect to whether you were responding like a
Reverend Johnson to the problems, or like a Walter Gordon to the
problems? Did it make any difference in what happened in the black
community?

271

Albrier: The response?

Chall: Reverend Johnson had a different way of responding to problems

or tackling problems than Walter Gordon. Did it make any difference
in what happened in the black community, whether you were more
militant or more gradual?

Albrier: The black people in the forties in the early forties weren t as
militant as they became later. You look at the background of
those two men, Reverend Johnson and Walter Gordon Walter Gordon
came up around here in Berkeley and in California. He had not
seen the ravages, and the pain, and the sorrow of discrimination
among his people, as a whole. He hadn t seen the masses of black
people like Reverend Johnson had in Houston, Texas, and pastoring
a large church, and pastoring in cities where they were.

So, Reverend Johnson naturally was more impatient and militant,
and spoke out more loudly than Walter Gordon. Walter Gordon would
do his through the law and courts. He believed in taking care of
things through the law. We ll take it to court. He was more mild
about it, but he d keep digging at it.

Chall: In terms of the community, which type of leadership did the black
community need? Did it need a leader like Johnson or a moderate
leader?

Albrier: From the forties on up, it began to need a leader like

Reverend Johnson. Because, you see, we had the younger group
who were demanding action. They began to demand action. "Why
should we wait? We shouldn t wait. We should go into action
and get our rights, first class citizenship, now."

While Walter Gordon said we should plan it; we should take
a certain length of time and plan it this way and plan it that way
before we go into action. And the younger groups were saying,
action now.

Chall: How did, then, leaders like C.L. Dellums, and Frankie Jones, and
Tarea Pittman handle this action now problem?

Albrier: They agreed with the black citizens; and there were whites, too,
who felt that we needed strong community organizations led by
organizations like the NAACP to take a stand and fight against
discrimination, segregation, injustice against not only the black
citizen, but all citizens.

[end tape 9, side 2; begin tape 10, side 1]

272

Chall: You were telling me about C.L. Dellums and his type of leadership
on the NAACP.

Albrier: C.L. Dellums came in and took over the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car
Porters. He, for a long time, had been an activist in labor.
He knew the problems because he had studied them and had noticed
them in all of their forms, in labor. He had met many people,
many of the porters. He had been in the struggle of winning the
rights of the sleeping car porters under A. Philip Randolph, who
was one of the greatest teachers and leaders in the United States,
in the struggle for freedom.

He was all geared up for action for getting things done and
not letting things drop , and to take a leading part in these
problems as they presented themselves, in labor and the government.

So was Tarea Pittman. But Walter Gordon was different. He d
been under different circumstances and had been under a different
environment. If Walter Gordon had been in Dellums shoes, he
would have been the same as Dellums; maybe, he would have been
more volatile.

Chall: How about Frankie Jones?

Albrier: Frankie Jones, the same way. She had been in the southern states
and had known the problems there; and she had known the problems
here from the time that she lived here. She was not so active in
having things done immediately as the others. She was the type
that would like to take her time and find her way; to study them
out, and then go into action. She was more of a teacher type. She
believed in that type of method in solving the problem, more like
a social worker.

Chall: How did that work?

Albrier: How did it work? In some cases, it didn t work. Some cases would
take longer. But she came up in the forties, when there was a
change. She was definitely ready to lead the NAACP towards that
change.

Chall: Every leader has his time.

Albrier: She came in at the time we were fighting for integrated schools.

Chall: I guess that did take some time and teaching, working with other
people, before you achieved it.

273

Albrier: Yes. It was a time when, with these problems, you had to be a very
skilled person to handle any organization that was wanting a change
and wanting to change things. Because when you want to change too
fast, you can destroy it. You have to build a foundation. Frankie
was a person who believed in building a firm foundation, quietly
building that foundation to stand on before you go out and build the
rest of the house. So she made friends and educated people to the
idea of freedom for everybody for every citizen.

Chall: I can see you must have had some very exciting meetings from time
to time, [laughs] with all these different philosophies.

Albrier: Yes. Yes.

The Communist Party and the Black Community

Chall: Jessica Mitford I guess you know who Jessica Mitford is has just

written a book called A Fine Old Conflict which deals primarily with
the work of the Communist party in the Bay Area.* She has written
about the Communist party s concern, first of all, with police
brutality about 1949, and bringing forward into the community the
problems about police brutality, which she claims the NAACP simply
wouldn t get involved in. "The NAACP," she says [reading]
"stood on the sidelines throughout our year-long campaign, sent a
representative who testified in generalities and called for
cooperation between the police and responsible groups in the
community. The committee eventually issued a wishy-washy report,
finding some degree of truth in the charges. Powers [Robert] was
fired on the initiative of the Republican committee members for
having cooperated with the CRC [Civil Rights Congress], a
subversive organization."

Then she claims that the NAACP did very little with respect
to community reaction to the purchase by black veteran,
Wilbur D. Gary, of a home in an all-white housing project in
Rollingwood in 1952.

Albrier: Where?

*Jessica Mitford, A Fine Old Conflict, (New York, Alfred A. Knopf,
Inc. 1977) p. 110-112

274

Chall: Rollingwood.
Albrier: Where s that?

Chall: I don t know where that is. I wasn t sure myself. I suspect it

was somewhere in the eastern hills of Richmond. I d have to check
that out.**

The NAACP, she says, was not generally noted for such militant
activities as leaflet distribution, but they gave out leaflets at
the mass meeting called by the East Bay Civil Rights Congress about
Gary that read, "Keep your eyes wide open. Don t get sucked in.
These groups, organizations, and publications, are attempting to
mislead the Negro community. Check and double check before you
sign petitions, attend meetings, serve on defense committees, or
join or contribute to questionable organizations." She says further
that the charges in the leaflet were, of course, familiar that
the party that s the Communist party and its front organizations
used issues like Rollingwood, police brutality, the Newson case,
to extend their influence among blacks, that it exploited these
issues for its own ideological purposes.

Albrier: The NAACP said that?
Chall: That s what she claimed.
Albrier: They did. That was true.

Chall: That s what she says [continues reading] "Were these charges

true? My answer would be yes, but so what? The crux of our method
was to use these issues to identify the economic and political
roots of racial bigotry. We endeavored to show that the cases of
police brutality we had uncovered were not random, isolated
instances of a few sadistic cops brutalizing helpless victims,
rather, police terrorism in the black community was a deliberate,
conscious policy of Oakland s political rulers to keep the blacks
in a state of subjugation."*

So, she felt, I guess, that you might just as well have used
the Communist party to gain your own ends as they did to gain
theirs. I assume you reacted at that time. I d just like to know
how you did react to that.

*A Fine Old Conflict, p. 132-133

**Rollingwcod is a housing development, built during the 1950s in an
area near Richmond, California.

275

Albrier: Yes. In those days it was when the radicals, the Communist

party was moving into our neighborhoods and re-educating our young
people on Communist lines; tearing up homes in the community by
black men with white women. They would send their women in with
the black men something that had never happened and homes were
being torn up. Black women were complaining.

We had a picketing, "Don t buy where you can t work" at
King s store. I was in that picket. We kept the Communists
out of our meetings.

Chall: Yes, you told me about that.

Albrier: Because we didn t want that type of attitude in the community

against the police. Many of us had lived in the South and we had
seen what the police could do to you, but we were not going to
be used. Or let that be used to destroy the very thing that we
were fighting for. Because we weren t fighting for any Communist
party; we were fighting for an issue that we were against. We
were against police brutality when it came to black people.

So with us, we went to the police and we informed the police
that we were going to picket and what we were picketing for. And
the police cooperated with us and told us how to cooperate with
them. It was not to let crowds get across the sidewalks and jam
up the sidewalks and to have big crowds. To keep it clear to
keep our picket clear. If we did that, they wouldn t be involved.
Because they were not involved in our issue with Mr. King. But
if we cluttered up the sidewalk, they would have to step in. It
was against the law to have the sidewalks and streets cluttered up.

So we got along all right with the police. Down in west
Oakland, where the Communists were, they did that, and picked
fights with the police, and they had people arrested, and the vans
down there. All of that made a lot of notoriety. We felt, after
our study, that they did not care.

Some of our people belonged to that party. They went to their
meetings. Then we decided that they did not care for the black
people; only in getting across their ideas and building the
Communist party. And we had nothing to do for the Communist party
the black people. Because we had fought in this country, died in
this country, worked in this country, and had built this country;
and this country was ours and we were going to demand it that
way. We didn t need any radical, Communist party with their ideas
coming over, involving us, because we couldn t see us getting any
place with them.

276

Chall: So when it came to their having an issue like police brutality in

Oakland, which they could prove, you still were not willing to work
with them in any way.

Albrier: Police brutality in Oakland was not only police brutality against
blacks; they were against whites. They beat up whites, too.
Because I took issue with them down there all of the Democratic
women took issue with them when they beat up a man who was a
diabetic, and he was a Mormon in jail. The Mormons got onto it,
and they got all of the organizations the black organizations and
everything against the brutal police in Oakland. Then they got
Mrs. [Irene] Erdman. Mrs. Erdman is the one that I was trying to
remember yesterday the one who was interested in these newsboys.
Irene Erdman.

They got all of the women, then, against police brutality as
an issue. And they weren t Communists. It wasn t the Communist
party, it was the people themselves. This man happened to be a
Mormon and the Mormon church got behind it and involved everybody
all of us, the Democrats and the citizens, in it.

The same way with the black people. The black people were
against brutality. They had been the brunt of police brutality,
but they were fighting police brutality as it was, against black
people; not as an issue of a party or a group.

Chall: She explains the history of it the way you see it, except that she
thinks you should have gotten in there and worked with them.

Albrier: No. Because they didn t have the confidence to work with them.

The Congress of Racial Equality

Chall: In 1942 and 43, when CORE came out of the Fellowship of

Reconciliation, I think you joined the Fellowship of Reconciliation,
didn t you?

Albrier: Yes, I joined CORE.

Chall: You joined CORE. In the earliest days, it was a nonviolent
organization, committed to civil rights for blacks.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Did you join a local CORE organization?

277

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Was it primarily blacks or was that a combination of blacks and
whites?

Albrier: A combination of black and white.

Chall: Some of the white liberals that you had met before?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And worked with?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What did you think, generally, of the methods of nonviolent, direct
action of CORE? Did you think that would be a good method to work
out the problems?

Albrier: I think CORE was the forerunner of Dr. Martin Luther King on

nonviolence that you can do more and you can generate and build an
idea better with nonviolence than you can with violence. You can
build that spirit up of treating people with love and consideration
and what is right , better with nonviolence than you can with
violent means. Violent means have never done anything for anybody
but create a lot of bitterness. We had a lot of bitterness to deal
with a lot of bitterness in the black race to deal with because
they had been so badly mistreated. So, we don t need to get any
other type of organization that promotes bitterness to help us.

Chall: So you believed this was a good approach.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: CORE really started the sit-ins and the boycotts in the South.
As you say, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference took
over. How did you feel about those boycotts and sit-ins? They
were nonviolent, at least the blacks were nonviolent in those
days. The violence was on the part of the whites. What did you
feel as those particular activities were going on in the South?
Did you think it was about time somebody sat-in in the bus? Was
it Rosa Parks, who didn t move?

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: That was a brave act.

Albrier: I think it was about time to it was the psychological time to go
into action when they put on the bus strikes and drew the people
into that strike of nonviolence, and winning it.

Chall:

278

Did you become a member of the Southern Christian Leadership
Conference?

Albrier: Yes.

Martin Luther King

Chall: Did you get to know, ever, Martin Luther King?

Albrier: Yes. I was with him and talked to him a good deal at the national
convention at Los Angeles. He was there and we sat on the same
seat, observing that convention.

Chall: In 1960? [Democratic National Convention]

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Kennedy was the nominee?

Albrier: Kennedy was nominated.

Chall: I notice that you were a speaker the only woman who spoke at two
of the memorial services [for King] in the Bay Area.

Albrier: Yes. The memorial services were gotten up by Dr. A.S. Jackson and
he asked me to speak at the memorial for King.

Chall: What did his life and what did his death mean to the black community?

Albrier: King s death to the black community was what you might call a

trauma, the same as Abraham Lincoln s death was when he was shot.
It was just a sorrowful, upsetting affair to the black community.
I don t know how to explain it.

Chall: What do you think that his life meant to the black community?

Albrier: His life was an inspiration and an ideal. His life was the same
to the black community as Jesus Christ s life was to Christianity.
That s the way they felt about Martin Luther King. A great many of
the black people are Christians and they follow the teachings of
Christ, and so did King. He was a disciple. To them, he was their
spiritual leader as well as their leader.

Chall: Has anybody come into the black community with that kind of leader
ship since Martin Luther King?

279

Albrier: No. Not yet. I don t think.

Chall: Nobody was quite like him prior, either, although you had some
strong leaders like A. Philip Randolph and DuBois

Albrier: Yes, but not quite in his field and in his line. By his being a

minister, he could reach so many of the people. Because there are
thousands of black people in the churches, and he reached all of
the sects in the churches Baptists, Methodists, all of them.
What he was fighting for was what they needed.

Militant Groups of the Sixties

Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

After his death, and really before it, the youth became quite
militant. As you said about a prior period, this was a time when
they wanted what they wanted now. SNCC I don t remember now what
that stands for but that group [Student Non Violent Coordinating
Committee] .

Yes , I remember that SNCC group .

Then even CORE became quite violent in its process.
Panthers came along. The Black Muslims came along.

The Black

Youth looked at their parents and the older ones, and they developed
an impatience. They felt that they had taken too long and they had
been too patient, and why wait? They felt the time is right now
to strike. They should fight for their change right now. That s
the attitude of an impatient youth. They get so far, and then it
stops. But the thing about it is that the grassroots of the thing
is what is right, and to take a stand on the right, and fight for
that; not to lay down and be too passive. To be militant, but not
overmilitant.

It s a hard line to draw, isn t it?
Yes.

This is youth, as you pointed out this is the way that youth is.
But they were very militant in ways that seemed frightening, I
guess, to some. I don t know whether the black community felt
frightened by the militancy of SNCC, or the Black Panthers, or
the philosophy of Malcolm X and the Black Muslims. What was
the reaction, or at least your reaction, to the militancy of
these groups? You can t speak for the whole black community, I m
sure. Bobby Seale, and Eldridge Cleaver, and Malcolm X.

280

Albrier: I felt that they were too far advanced and they were too militant,
which has been proven, because they reverted back to where we older
ones are. They found out that radical militancy, where you devour
and destroy things and give vent to your emotions that s the one
thing you ve got to learn to control.

As I tell the youth , you have to learn how to control your
emotions or your emotions will destroy you. That s the teaching
that all of the masters gave us , all of the great teachers of
Christianity gave us. But the youth become so impatient and get so
emotional that they want to strike now, and they want to have the
change now. It takes years to make changes. It took years to
bring our civilization up to where it is now.

Forty Years of Change in the South

Chall: When you went back to Alabama You gave me something to read a
little while ago, and in it I noticed that you had taken a trip
to Alabama in 1969 and found conditions considerably changed from
what they d been on one of your previous trips, as well as when
you were growing up in the South. Could you tell me what have
been the changes that you ve seen in your lifetime?

Albrier: I ve seen forty years of change. I ve seen changes that I never
thought that I would see, or that it would happen that way.

Chall: What kind?

Albrier: I was in the Pullman service, and I went back to Alabama on the

train. When I first went in the Pullman service in 1926, there was
the type of discrimination that we all revolted against. When we
got to Houston, Texas, all of the blacks had to get in the chair cars,
They could not ride in the cars with the whites.

There was a curtain. They could not eat in the dining room
with other people. They had to eat behind a curtain. That was all
the way through the South.

When I went back on this train, I saw no curtains. I saw
black and white in the Pullman cars. There was no change. The
blacks didn t have to get off into another chair car out of the
Pullman cars, when they reached the southern lines. To me, that
was a big thing and a remarkable change, in so short a time. To
me, it had been a short time.

281

Albrier:

Chall:
Albrier:

When I went into stores, it was the same way. I went into stores
and sat down at the counter and had a cup of cofee, right beside a
white lady. Nobody said, "You move." I didn t see any sign "For
Black Only" in the restrooms. I didn t see any signs "For Black
Only." It was just a different city and a different change. I
said, "My, what a change in a short length of time. That things
could happen so fast to change thinking." Of course, that was done
a lot by the government. It was done by people like
A. Philip Randolph, C.L. Dellums, all those people; and the work of
Walter Gordon.

That s what was

Everyone in his own way.

That s right. Those changes were made and done.
so amazing.

Yes. Just to see it all the contrast.

Yes. In the stations, there were black and white sitting in the
stations together. When I was in the Pullman service, it was for
black over here; for white over here. It just was amazing how
those changes could happen.

The Negro Press

Chall: What about the newspapers like the Sun Reporter, The Post, and the
California Voice in the Bay Area? Were they an important influence
in the Negro community? Were they read?

Albrier: They re read by the community. The Negro community has never given
up their papers. They have the background even from
Frederick Douglass days, when he started the paper in order to
reach them. So, it s according to what s in the papers and what they
demand to be in the papers . If they demand to still have a lot of
social life. . . .

But I think the Sun Reporter under Dr. Goodlett, i s not leaning
that way. He s leaning towards the militancy, of respecting the
militancy policy, of education for the masses of Negro people. To
weld them together so they will have strength to overcome their
difficulties with their friends. Through those papers he s the
publisher of all of them now. The California Voice also. That s
the oldest newspaper in northern California.

Chall: And The Post? Tom Berkley s paper.

282

Albrier: The Post has its influence, too.
Chall: What would it be?

Albrier: I think The Post is not as militant as the Sun Reporter in giving
news.

Chall: These papers, I notice, have co-sponsored quite a number of major
conferences black leadership, women s leadership, various kinds
through the years. I ve been looking at your scrapbooks. They ve
had some influence that way. At least, they ve helped the community
in that way with the sponsorship of these conferences .

Albrier: Yes, they have kept the community informed of the conferences and
the different organizations. That s in the ideas and promotions
of ideas that s going on civically and racially. Without them,
I don t know what the black community would do.

Chall: Do many of the members of the black community read the national

press like the Pittsburgh Courier or the Chicago Defender? Is that
seen around much?

Albrier: Yes, a great many of them do. The Chicago Defender and the

Pittsburgh Courier are two of the oldest papers that we have. A
great many of the people from the East always take that paper, or
get it, so they know the news that s going on in those states.
Because we have a large population now of Negroes from New York,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, coming West.

Chall: Do those papers take up more of the national and international news
than our local papers do?

Albrier: I think they do.
Chall: Broader coverage.
Albrier: Yes.

283

VII THE PRESENT: EVALUATIONS AND ACTIVITIES

Some Women and Men Who Have Left Their Mark on the Black Community

Chall: I wanted to get an idea from you whom over the years you ve known
or known of, that you would classify as your heroines and your
heroes. The people, who, if you were going to give a talk today on
black history, you would include.

What about the Negro women who have done most for the race,
those you think would be looked up to today. I remember you told me
once Mary Church Terrell was a sort of model of yours when you
started out as a young woman. And I know you give lectures on the
life of Mary McLeod Bethune. You ve known her, too, haven t you?

Albrier : Yes .

Chall: She would be one of your heroines?

Albrier: Yes, Bethune and Mary Church Terrell, and Dr. Arenia C. Mallory.

Chall: How about Dorothy Height? Does she fit in there anywhere?

Albrier: Well, she could, but I wasn t as close to her. Do you have to have
three?

Chall: Oh, I d like as many as you can think of as many women as you can
think of who have made a mark in the black community.

Albrier: You mean the community around here?

Chall: Both. It could be national or it could be local. We talked about
Charlotta Bass, for example. Not many people know her, but she s
been important, hasn t she?

Albrier: Yes.

284

Chall: And people like Mary Terrell and Mary Bethune, of course, are
mainly nationally known and important.

Albrier: I m thinking of those who were in the National Association. I wish
I had some thoughts on that.

Chall: That s all right. When you edit, you can put them in. What about
people like Rosa Parks? And Fannie Lou Hamer?

Albrier: I didn t know Rosa Parks, but Fannie Lou Hamer, I d met quite a few
times. I admired her. Rosa Parks did not, but Fannie Lou Hamer
went through more suffering, torture, and trials to get things done
for the black women and the racefor the thousands of people in
Mississippi, in the South; also in the United States. All women
when you help elevate, you help elevate white women as well, and
vice versa.

Chall: What about modern the women that we know of today, like
Shirley Chisholm and Barbara Jordan?

Albrier: Shirley Chisholm pioneered in politics in running for office, being
congresswoman. She worked very hard, and sacrificed to elevate
women in the field of politics; that was one way to freedom for
women in the home communities, the country, and the world outside of
the United States. She is a perfect model.

[end tape 10, side 1; begin tape 10, side 2]

Chall: You mean, when she ran for president that s when she pioneered?

Albrier: Mrs. Chisholm pioneered when she ran for Congress in New York as a
black woman. Anything that black women do like that, they re
pioneering; they re the first, or one of the first. Because it
takes a lot of guts and militancy and sacrifice to do those things
when it isn t popular, and it wasn t popular for a black woman in
the East or anywhere.

The same with Mrs. Brathwaite in California to run for Congress
and to be elected. That means that they have paved the way for
other women in government. Now, when Mrs. Chisholm ran for
president, she did it again. She s pioneered the way for
eventually, we ll have a woman president of the United States.
Those doors have been opened. People had looked at her and they ve
talked about a woman running for president. They heard what she
had to say. It will be much easier for the next woman who has the
ambition to run for president to do so .

Chall: What about Barbara Jordan?

285

Albrier: Barbara Jordan has pioneered for women in her state, the state of
Texas, in running for Congress and for taking the stand on issues
that she has. She has been the voice, again, for all women
regardless of race.

Chall: These women are a pride to the black community, I take it.

Albrier: Yes. Also our congresswoman, Mrs. Brathwaite, has done the same
thing. And she pioneered through the state and then through the
government. I understand she s going to run for attorney general.

Chall: That s right.

Albrier: So she s pioneered opening those doors for women in those different
offices. I also admire Mrs. Fong.

Chall: Yes, March Fong [Eu].

What kind of women were Mary Church Terrell and Mary McLeod
Bethune that make them stand out so far above any others that you
can recall? What special qualities of leadership did they have?

Albrier: Mary Church Terrell was a woman that married well. Her husband was
a judge and she had a great deal of the good things of life. But
she was a woman who did not forget those who did not have education,
employment, homes, and communities in her race. She was able to
travel and go to Europe and probably not be discriminated against
as her sisters were. She had that love aid affection for the
sisters of her race to open many doors, and felt responsible for
them.

Mrs. Terrell did not have to go to the top of the balcony to
see a movie or a play, to see a picture, and be discriminated
against. So she picketed. She picketed against this type of
discrimination in Washington, D.C., the nation s capital. And
she was very much against the lynchings and the forms of
discrimination that were heaped on her sisters in the black race, here
in these United States. That s why she did so much to organize them
in the Association of Colored Women s Clubs and to teach the many
who needed education. To provide schools in the southern states
for those who needed the schools.

She was a woman who did not have to do those things. She could
have gotten along very well and been happy within her own rights
and within her own family. Not like Mary McLeod Bethune, who came
up from the cotton fields and who worked her way through life step
by step. And she opened the doors step by step.

The first great door that was closed, and closed quite tight,
was that of education. She could see that her people needed
education. They needed to know how to read and write and how to take

286

Albrier: care of their own business; how to be good cooks, housekeepers,

teachers. And they needed all of this training through education,
as hundreds had not had the opportunity to go to school.

They needed schools and they needed to know the things in life
that were worthwhile. They needed to know how to have faith in
themselves because a great many of them had no faith in themselves,
because they had been taught that you are just a Negro; you re just
a black; you came from nowhere, and you re nobody. But Mary McLeod
Bethune taught them that they were God s children and they were
somebody and that they could be somebody if they put their hand to
the plough, like she did.

She opened up these doors through education in the schools in
the deep South. She did not go to the North where things were a
little better in education and schools. She went back to the South
where the plantations were, with hundreds of black youth who were
denied education. She opened up these doors and instilled faith in
the young people, so that they could advance to a better life.

I don t think we have another woman that has matched
Mary McLeod Bethune and left a legacy to the people as she has.

Chall: These women were selfless, weren t they? They weren t moving into
positions where not only were they opening doors, but they were
opening doors for themselves. And I don t mean anything against
Shirley Chisholm or Yvonne Brathwaite, because they are opening
doors for others by doing it themselves. But they are helping
themselves while they do it . Whereas Mary McLeod Bethune and
Mary Church Terrell went out in a selfless way for their sisters.
And that makes them different.

Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Were they inspiring speakers as well as hard workers, these two
women Terrell and Bethune?

Albrier: Yes, they were. Mrs. Bethune was a greater speaker than

Mary Church Terrell, but Mary Church Terrell was more of a writer.

Chall: I see.

Albrier: There s one other woman that I think stands out in the little time
she had here Fannie Lou Hamer. I don t know of any woman who
could have taken the punishment that Fannie Lou Hamer did and
still have no regrets, and still could forgive.

Chall: Because she was in prison, wasn t she?

287

Albrier: I remember she told me that when she was in prison, that they

ordered her beaten and they made one of the inmates that she knew
quite well, beat her. She had nothing against him at all, because
they made him do it. He had to do it. "Mrs. Albrier," she said,
"I have nothing against him." I said, "Well, couldn t he have gotten
around someway or done something to say that he wouldn t do it?"
And she said he had to do it. "I have no animosity against him
because they made him do it." To think she had taken those terrible
beatings and punishment and still kept going; still kept talking
to get decent housing and nursery schools and education for the
backwoods people in the Mississippi Delta.

I think she was next to Christ when they crucified him and put
those nails through his hands and beat him. I feature Hamer having
that spirit, that wonderful indomitable spirit which surely came
from God.

Chall: We shouldn t forget these people.
Albrier: No.

Chall: On the male side, whom do you think we should remember? I m

probably thinking in terms of those who came up at about the time
that you did that you ve either known or know of. Do you think
Marcus Garvey stands out as a pioneer who tried to do something
for the black race?

Albrier: Marcus Garvey was one of our pioneers that taught the masses of

people, black people, a lesson. Yet they didn t realize it until
years later. Because in order to dehumanize the black people,
they were taught that they were ugly; their skin was black and
ugly; their hair was kinky and ugly; and that they were just ugly.
Marcus Garvey came along with a different idea and he taught them
that he was a handsome black man. You wouldn t expect him to be
white, have a Roman nose, and thin lips, and a white skin.

He had a skin that fitted an African, and that he was from
Africa and he was an African. That he was a handsome person. And
to have faith in yourself, and to admire yourself and the race
would have to admire themselves. And the reason it was an
economic reason why they were taught that they were ugly, ignorant,
and heathens. It was from an economic aspect: in order to keep
them down and keep them thinking so. The minute they get up and
think that they re somebody and they re handsome, then they re on
the step to more freedom.

He was the father of that type of education.

288

Chall: Who followed? Do you place DuBois and A. Philip Randolph as men
who came along, important to their race, following Garvey?

Albrier: Yes, they followed Garvey. Garvey took the history of the black
race and the people, economically. He followed their condition
economically and how they could help themselves economically. The
countries that were black could trade with each other. That s why
he proposed to have a White Star Line ships where farmers in
Jamaica could trade with the people here what they didn t raise
and become a commercial asset among themselves.

All those different ideas of promotion that he instilled
those seeds didn t die. He planted them. He s appreciated today,
although it took a long time for him to be appreciated by his
people. Today, he s been appreciated.

Not like DuBois. They were two different men with two different
ideas. They came upon the scene at different times. DuBois
wanted to see his people, as many as possible, get a higher education.
He felt that that s what they needed. Then later, he became more
militant. He could see that they must take a stand of militancy and
demand their rights, like all other people. But he followed in
Marcus Garvey s footsteps.

Then there s Roy Wilkins, who came up in this country and who
worked with the press and the news media. He became so imbued
that the basic knowledge of the black people should be instilled
in them that they would lift up their heads and progress, and that
they could go forward and take care of themselves in an adequate way
of respect.

Chall: He led the NAACP for years.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: What about people like Ralph Bunche and Paul Robeson? Even people
like Joe Louis? They re different, but I m just wondering

Albrier: They re different. Paul Robeson was one of the pioneers in the
field of militance for his people, in the field of struggle and
sacrifice. He sacrificed so much for the young people, and in
the days when he came up through college, when discrimination
was as thick as butter. Yet, he did not become bitter. He
struggled and went to the top. He had the strength to do so. He
left them a legacy that they should not forget. Every black
student will admire and be thankful for Paul Robeson.

Chall: Was there an animosity towards him at one time in the black

community, because of his having become a Communist? Or did they
feel that that was his opinion?

289

Albrier: I think the black community never felt that Paul Robeson was a

Communist. They felt that the Communists were using him, but he,
himself, was not a Communist. He was a person fighting on issues and
for the best for his people; and fighting against a program that
had been used to keep him down and keep him out of the mainstream
of life, and also his people. He sacrificed that this shouldn t be
done.

Mrs. Albrier Evaluates Her Goals as a Community Leader

Chall: When Ruth Acty and Velma Ford were working on your fund drive,
they did it because they felt they owed a great deal to you.
Ruth Acty because she was the first Negro teacher in Berkeley, and
Velma Ford because, apparently, most of her life, you have insisted
that she do something in her community for her own people, and she
has certainly done that. And she feels that she and many other
women and men owe you a debt of gratitude because you ve made
them community-minded and community leaders.

I just wondered what you perceived as your role and your
goal. What was your technique for keeping going all those years
and for inspiring all these people who feel you were so important
to their lives?

Albrier: I think that with people certain things they are born with. They re
instilled at birth, in the embryo stage, from your parents. I
think that my grandmother was so imbued with raising the standards
of her race, elevating her race, inspiring the young people. She
came along with Booker T. Washington and that was his inspiration:
to inspire the young people and bring them up from where they were
to a better life and the nobler things of life.

When you do for others, that s some of the noble things of
life when you can inspire. One of the greatest things is to inspire
young people to the higher things of life, especially when it came
to the black race that had so far to go and a long ladder to climb
that you be able to do something to help them and make it better
for them. I think that s the inspiration and that s the goal of all
of the leaders in the world.

Chall: And that was your goal, passed down to you from your grandmother?
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: And that was the goal that kept you working as hard as you did in
all these various organizations?

Frances Albrier Is A Spunky

Septuagenarian

Thurs., July 22,1971,
The POST Page 19

by Pat Trttsch
Post staff writer

Mrs. Frances Albriar of
Berkeley. Is everyone s
grandmother, but nobody s
7 aunt Frances." At 72, Mrs.
Albrier has been there and
done It - at least once. She
is a world traveler and saw
Europe before andafter World
War L. Her energy and ac
tivities would exhaust any
other three people. "IPs my
interest In projects that gives
me vitality," she claims.
"Everytine I mink I should
start to take It easy some
thing comes along that stirs
me up agiia and off I go."

The number or organiza
tions to which Mrs. Albrier
Is, or has been, a member
of is endless. She Is not the
first black woman to gain ad
mission to several groups.
She Is the first woman.

The Assembly Rules Com
mittee of the California Le
gislature recently awarded
Mrs. Albrier a resolution
commending her accomplish
ments. The resolution notes
that she was born in New
York, graduated from Booker
T. Washington Institute and
Howard University, has lived

in Berkeley since 1922, and
has held offices in numerous
organizations including PTA,
NAACP. National Council of
Negro women and me North
ern California Federation of
Colored Women s Clubs.

She has been active in pol
itics, serving on the Demo
cratic Central Committee and
was president of the Alanteda
County Democratic Women s
Study Group. And mat s just
about half of her activities.

How does one person man
age to do so much? For one
thing. It helps to come from
an environment that fosters
a feeling of serving the com
munity. Another thing, an un
derstanding and cooperative
family Is essential.

"I was born in New York,
but my mother died when I
was three and grandmother
reared me in Tuskegee, Ala,
She had been a slave and was
18 when she was freed. She
was a deeply religious woman
and had strong feeling of help
ing in the community. She
visited sick folks In the hos
pital, but she did much more
than that. She was one of the
residents of Tuskegee who
Influenced Booker T. Wash

ington to start his school
there.

"I remember when I was
a child, tuition at Tuskegee
was $10. The poor boys would
come to school with the pen
nies and nickels they d saved
from picking cotton and doing
od d jobs. They wanted an
education. So Booker T. Wash
ington put them to work. They
studied three hours a night
after they put in a day growing
the food and crops necessary
to feed the students and main
tain the school. It took two
years to get a semester s
work.

"In those days it was a
trade school. Everyone wore
a uniform. The students who
were going to be tailors and
dressmakers made the uni
forms. Some of the students
wanted more advanced aca
demic courses, but Mr. Wash
ington said no. He said, "You
can learn a trade here. Then
when you re a plumber or a
chef you can work your way
through another school to be
come a doctor or a lawyer .

1 studied botany with
George -Washington Carver."
remembers Mrs. Albrier. "If
he called on you and you stood
up to answer and started off
with 1 think... he d motion
you to sit down. No, he d
say, "you don t think. In this
class you know. That was his
scientific mind working."

She was graduated from
Tuskegee with a BA in educa
tion, went on to Howard in
Washington, D.C. to get her
master s In nursing and social
work before coming west to
Berkeley. In 1922. She cared
for her sick step mother he re,
then married and started her
family.

"I gradually became In
volved in community work, es
pecially PTA, and progressed
in PTA as the children pro
gressed through school."

Recently Mrs. Albrier was
awarded a life time member
ship In the PTA. The member
ship carries a scholarship in
her name.

"My husband worked for me
railroad. Fortunately, he
didn t complain if his dinner
was kept warm in the oven
and I was away at a meeting.
Not all men are so under
standing and cooperative.
Without Ms going along with
me, I couldn t have done so
much.

"The children went right
along too. They campaigned
f o r candidates, passed out
literature for Roosevelt and
were pretty smart politically.

"I taught all of them, the boy
and the girls, to cook, clean,
wash and iron. I told them they
might be in a situation some
day when it would be handy to
know how to take care of them
selves.

"I used to tell them: 1 know
what you re thinking. You think
I m the meanest mother In the
world. How do I know? Be
cause I was a child. I remem
ber. I used to think my grand-
moth er was the meanest
woman In the world. She d
make me clean my room and
do chores. And she d tell me
someday Pd appreciate her.
WelK she was right. And
someday you children will ap
preciate me. too. So you go
on and do those dishes and
think I m the meanest mother
in the world now.

289b

"I don t agree with not dis
ciplining children," adds Mrs.
Albrler. "Look at the stars.
the seasons. Thafs divine dls ;
clpllne. Everthlng needs dis
cipline. Without it we can t
stand up to lite. We need it
as children so we can become
something as adults.

"I think I like the Thirties
best, she admits, "People
had a closeness. We were less
materialistic, more natural
and sincere. Of course, I guess
we were more ignorant, too."-

It was during the depres
sion years that she worked
for the welfare program and
became active In politics. In
1939, she was the first woman
on the Democratic Central
Committee. In 1940, she was
the first black to join the
League of Women Voters. She
also was the first woman to
run for the Berkeley City
Council, paving the way for
other women who subsequent
ly have served on the council.

As Mrs. Albrler advanced
within the PTA through the
years, she also became more
involved with politics. She was
a member of the Alameda
County Democratic Com
mittee for 18 years, was a
member of the state com
mittee and also served as
president of the Auxiliary to
Local #456, Dining Car Cooks,
Waiters, Bartenders and Mis
cellaneous Help.

In 1960 she realized the
dream of lifetime. "I always
wanted to put my foot on the
soil of my ancestors and I
did that when I attended Nige
ria s independence in 1960.
In my earlies travels I had
seen almost every country but
Pussia and India, but I had
uever had the opportunity to
seen my ancestral homeland."
Today, with six grandchil
dren, and six great grand
children, Mrs. Albrier Is a re
source person In black his
tory for both Oakland and Ber
keley schools. "Africa under
went a dramatic change In
World War One," she ex
plains. "Africans left their
.homes to fight In Europe and
the learned to kill white men,
to realize they were not some
idnd of gods. They also saw
more of the world, European
culture. At the same time,
American Negroes were
migrating from the south to
work In the shipyards and war
industries, a migration that
was stepped up In World War
Two."

Mrs. Frances Albrler proudly exhibits a resolution presented to her by
the California State Assembly in recognition for her outstanding contri
butions in behalf of her adopted state.

She also is involved with the
senior center. She Is the com
munity representative of the
Social Planning Dept. for me
city of Berkeley and spends
her days at the center. In
conjenction with mis interest
she was elected as me senior
representatives for Model
Cities. .

After seven decades of ob
serving and participating in
the changes in this country,

what does Mrs. Albrier con
sider important? EducatlonI

"We need more scholar
ships." she declares. We
are living in an age today
where youngsters do get
peoples ears. They will be
heard Is they speak up.

"We need more vocational
and training schools. We will
always need the butcher, me

baker, the candlestick maker.
Not everyone needs to go to
college. The problem is that a
good butcher should be worth
as much as a good lawyer.
Anyone who does his Job well
should be paid well.

"The best advice I can give
anyone is the same advice my
grandmother gave me and I
gave my children: get that
education, whether it be for
a profession or a trade, but
get the education and men do
your job well!"

290

Albrier: Yes. My grandmother and the people I came in contact with, like

Dr. Washington, Dr. Carver, and all of those great teachers that I
didn t know were so great at the time. But they had a lot to do
with the molding of the youth that came under their jurisdiction in
those days. I was one of them that they helped mold,

Chall: Was it a conscious goal of yours to help mold during the time
almost fifty years that you ve been active in the Berkeley area?
Has that been one of your goals?

Albrier: Yes. It s been one of my goals to make things better, to open
doors, to skillfully promote love and respect among people,
regardless of what colors or race they were. Because I saw so
much disappointment and pain, in the South and in other places,
between the races. I felt that that just shouldn t be. And that
we weren t born to have those things happen, so we should do our
part to eliminate them.

Chall: It takes a lot of effort to be as active as you ve been all these
years. It doesn t come easily. It takes hours of planning and
preparation, phoning, picking people up you know all the things
you ve been doing all these years. You re bound to have done them
all. Was there ever a time when you got just plain tired and
thought, "I can t carry this any longer"?

Albrier: I begin to feel that way now.

Chall: Now?! [Laughs] At least now, after nearly three hours of talking.
Now, after nearly fifty years of community work, maybe you can
deserve to feel a little tired, but you never did, in the years
before? It was stimulating and not too arduous?

Albrier: No, in the years before, I knew that it was a struggle from the
lives of people I read, like Frederick Douglass. I read his life
and saw how he accomplished things. And all of the great leaders
Booker T. Washington. I saw people come up around me. You realize
that life is a struggle and that you have to keep going. You have
to ask God for the strength, and I think He gives you the strength
and the inspiration to keep going and to do things. Because it
becomes a part of you, and you get your pleasure when you see that
things have come into effect that you have worked for.

I see people, like some of the young people that I know, who
are making good, who are inspired to do things for their community,
in humanities. I could see part of me in them. That s what I get
and that s what I m grateful for.

Chall: So you know that you ve inspired many people in this community?
You realize that?

291a

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29 Ib

Special Needs of Black Aged

Continued From Page 27

low paying jobs, she said, and
often they did not qualify for
Social Security. Therefore,
she explained, the aged black
is subject to greater problems,
and "that s why we need this
conference." .. .

Sanders spends a good
share of his time working on
behalf &lt;jf senior citizens.- He*s
a member of the advisory
council to the State Commis
sion on Aging, serves on the

Commission on Aging in
Berkeley a*d, he said,
"please don t leave out my
church." He s a trustee and
teacher at Mt. Zion Mission
ary Baptist Church of Oak
land. .;.,

Sanders said most blacks
have worked all their lives at
jobs that paid much less than
those held by Caucasians and

most of them have been una
ble to put away money for

.their old age. And he said
with the high cost of living-
property taxes, utility rates
and food they are barely able
to make ends meet. , V:

"Housing is often below
standard, - . Sanders noted,
."and they are unable to re
model their homes because of
the high rate of interest.-
Physically they re not able to
receive adequate health care
because the rates are so high
and if they re lucky enough to
find a little job to supplement
their Social Security,. they are
penalized with $1 taken away
for ever $3 they get and this

bottles them in so they cannot
meet their needs."

Sanders said that because
"50 years ago economic bar
riers as well as built-in se-
greation" prevented many
blacks from getting an educa
tion, they are now victimized
by hard-pitched salespersons
who talk them into buying
things and, because they don t
read the fine print, they pay
more for interest than the
product they buy.

He is in hopes that young
blacks coming out of college
will join together with the old
and help them overcome
many of their problems.

Harris pointed out that
.many of the black aged are
living in areas where they are
not being informed of sen-ices
that are available to them.
"We want to let them know
we can help. Many don t un
derstand the red tape proce
dure, and don t know how to
go about getting benefits."

Keynote speaker at the con
ference was Hobart C. Jack
son, founder and immediate
past chairman of the National
Center on the Black Aged. On
Saturday, Dr. E. Percil Stan
ford of San Diego spoke and
showed his film. "To Be Old.
Black and Alive." Dorothy
Pitts was co-chairperson of
the conference.

291c

rOTABJ.F MEALS
SH!OR CEMVJ:?: Or BE^Kn
13&lt;? LiKlVESSiTY AVSM JE
B42-.03.i7

July 22, 1970

Dear T r s . A Ib r 1 er :

On my behalf, as -well. EIS the

Advisory Committee and all who are a part of Portable
Ideals, we wish to thar.k you for your many services to
the program. It is only because of the support of good.
people like yourself that we have been able to continue
this much needed service. Your first help to us was in
making our service kno vni throughout the community.
Through arranging publicity and also by your close contact
with people in all parts of Berkeley I have received much
assis-tance, which has been invaluable to me. Through your
contact with the San Francisco Foundation for Aged Colored
People we received a very generous contribution, which
enabled us to assist more Berkeley seniors,

Frances, you have been so very

kind about never saying "no" to me when, in an emergency,
I have .^ked you to substitute as a driver for the service.
Not only have you delivered meals , but you are aware of
other needs of these people, and this is as important as
the food.

For me to know and work with such

a fine person as you has been a rewarding experience and
a great pleasure.

So may it ever be .

Sincerely

Ann Frulan
AFrmr Coordinator of Portable Meals-

291d

The Nugget. January 1, 1972

Page 3

WHITE HOUSE CONFERENCE ON AGING

By Frances Albrier, Delegate

Older people spoke their minds loud,
clear, and aggressively about the
problems that concern . them such
as income, medical and dental costs,
housing, nutrition, and transpor
tation. The 3,400 delegates made
recommendations to put a floor on
income; to boost social security
25% and to insure comprehensive
health security for all Americans
without regard to age or to economic
status. President Nixon s speech
was truly inspiring. He touched
on all of the needs of the older
American: increasing their incomes;
providing help on their taxes and
providing adequate nursing homes.
Nixon went on to say that, The
older Americans in our midst have
teen pioneers and builders during
a period of dramatic change and
severe testing. They remind us of
the moral values and personal
qualities which have been the
basis of our National Achievements.
Having Learned to live with change
and challenge, they offer us, now
and for the future, a valuable
resource of skill and of wisdom."
The delegates will be looking forward
to the President, the U. S. Commis
sioner on Aging, the Senate and the
Congress to fulfill their promises
to the Older Americans by responding
to their needs as recommended at
the 1971 White House Conference on
Aging.

291

Albrier: Yes, I think so.

Chall: Do you look back, then, with satisfaction on having achieved the
goals that you set out to achieve?

Albrier: Well, I think I ve achieved the goals a great many of them. I ve
seen results. I ve seen these different changes. I set out to
change things and to help make the changes. So, I m very thankful
that I ve lived to see these things happen that I ve worked for and
fought for, never thinking that I would see them.

Chall: That is gratifying.
Albrier: Yes.

Chall: Do you have any leadership techniques? Do you press an idea? Do
you contact people all the time? Do you follow through once you
get your organization going? Are you a pusher and a nagger?
[Laughter] How do you manage it?

Albrier: That s the hardest part in getting into organizations you have to
keep at people. You have to beg and plead with them. You have to
get them to realize that what you want them to do and that what
they re working for is worthwhile, and that they will get some
benefit out of it. Because a great many of them say, "Well, what
will I get out of it if I join the organization and I work like
you do? What benefit?" Then you have to be skillful enough to
show them the benefits that they will receive within themselves
the happiness they will get in accomplishing something within
themselves.

If you are going out to have a conference or seminar, and
impart certain information to people who need it if that s
accomplished, you have that pleasure of knowing that, and you ll get
great pleasure out of it.

Chall: You know it from experience.
Albrier : Yes .

Appointments to Community Agencies Today, 1978

Chall: I think, Mrs. Albrier, that in the past four years, you were the
first black appointed to the Herrick Hospital Board of Trustees,
is that right? And that you have been active as a Senior Center
assistant in Berkeley s Department of Aging.

292

Chall: I m not sure that I m going to tire you out any further with that
today, unless you want to tell me at least how it came about that
you became the first black to integrate the Herrick Hospital
Board of Trustees. We were discussing yesterday how you were
integrating so many organizations, and we didn t take that up.
Do you want to give me just a few more minutes? Then I ll let you
go. I feel we should hear about that, at least.

Albrier: A great many blacks look at me and they ask the same question.

How come you are the first black and why did they ask you to serve
on Herrick? Or Chaparral House?

Chall: Chaparral House I don t know what that is.

Herrick Memorial Hospital Board of Trustees, 1972

Albrier: Well, I didn t ask, myself, to serve on them. I wasn t thinking
of serving on the Herrick board. But it happened that the chair
man of the Committee on Aging [of the City of Berkeley Social
Planning Department], Sophy Kagel, became so inspired and
enthused with my activities on the Committee on Aging and getting
certain things done. She was the chairman, and I would take on
obligations and help her to get these things done. And in a quiet
way.

There had been some talk the idea had been expressed on that
board that they should have a black on the board. They had been
criticized at Herrick for not having any representative in the
community on that board.

A great many of the people on these boards white people on
these boards have not come in contact with the quiet type like me,
who s not going to raise a lot of sand and say a lot of things,
and criticize a lot of people for this and that and the other.

They ve seen the other type, and they re kind of afraid.
They stay clear of them. I think Mrs. Kagel convinced that
board that she knew somebody who could work on the board, and work
with them, and would take it, and was a member of the community,
and who the community would respect if she did say something or
talked.

So, she submitted my name to the board and told them she
thought I was the person that should serve on that board from
the community; that I was serving as Model Cities Director,
elected by the community. Because that board has many doctors;

293

Albrier: a lot of people who are quite sensitive. A lot of people who

haven t worked with blacks. They may have worked with professionals,
like a white doctor would with a black doctor.

So, when I met the board and they questioned me, they decided
they would like for me to be on the board. I was alone, had been in
Berkeley a good many years, and seen that hospital grow. Even my
son had delivered newspapers there, as a newsboy, to a doctor.
I couldn t think of the doctor s name, but they did. This doctor
wanted him to deliver his paper every Sunday morning at six o clock.
He read his paper and he always had a nice, red apple sitting out
there for him.

I was recommended by Dr. Fitzroy Young, a black doctor, who
served many years at Herrick; also by the chairman,
Dr. Suren Babington. They decided they would like for me to become
a member and serve on the board. That s how I became a member of
the board. I was as surprised as anybody else.

Chall: Have you enjoyed the experience?

Albrier: I ve enjoyed it very much. I enjoy it now that they know that I
still work with the seniors at the Senior Center. I have the
committee for seniors relations in the hospital. We are now going
into the phase of sensitivity of seniors and older people. Because
there s been some comments of some people working in the hospital
being very hostile and harsh with older people. They can t move
as fast, or they may not answer you. It may be because they
just don t hear you. And they have impatient young people who get
impatient with them, so they re having that type of course now.
We ve just finished the course on hearing.

[Insert from beginning of tape 5, side 1]

Albrier: A great many seniors lose their hearing. They can t hear and go

within themselves and isolate themselves, and don t take a part in
organizations or meetings, or anything because of their problems
with hearing.

Chall: Yes, even with friends, they stop talking.

Albrier: We got that completed. Now we have educated the doctors and the
staff on the sensitivity of older persons.

Chall: In general.

ALbrier: In general. One of the evaluators, a communications person on
the staff, had called committees. They are going to have a
conference on that, because a great many people nurses and others-

294

Albrier

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier:

Chall:

don t realize that the elderly persons are different. They live
in a different world. The approach to them is different. They re
slower and they can t keep up with the gait of the generations
just ahead of them now. The staff and the nurses even the doctors
have to realize that . In the next few years , there will be a
whole generation thousands more people coming into the field of
the elderly. And they re living longer.

Then we discuss the mental patients the mentally ill. I was
so glad that Governor Brown [Edmund G. , Jr.] appropriated that
money for the hospital for Napa because a great many mentally
ill, elderly people are in that hospital. Some of them have been
sent out to nursing homes, long-range nursing homes. They re the
type of persons you have to know just how to keep up with and to
tolerate and to help them.

I notice the Federal Commission on, I guess it s Equal Rights, indicated
that it was the elderly who weren t getting proper attention in
hospitals, mental clinics, in all sorts of things that we wouldn t
even think about in terms of equal opportunities. The commissioners
said that when there s a question of money, government agencies
usually put the money into mental health programs for children and
young people rather than for elderly, because of the feeling children
have to be taken care of. But they claimed that many of the elderly
could be pretty self-sufficient if they were given some proper help,
which at present, they don t get.

That s right.

So you re raising the consciousness, as they say today.

We re raising the consciousness of the hospital and the staff.
That came from the board of trustees. Dr. [Leland H.] Cohen was the
one who appointed a Committee on Health Care Services for Senior
Citizens, and appointed me chairman. So we developed one thing to
the other.

We did the study on the hearing last year. We sent the
hearing pamphlets out to every senior center. We gave out
information in the Nugget that s the little paper, tabloid,
put out by the senior center. It was 600 mailings: 300 went to
Emeryville; they went to El Cerrito; some went to Oakland. Every
doctor on staff got them. Social Services received them, and
senior organizations. We distributed them all around.

That was the announcement of the opportunity to be tested by the
hearing specialists?

295

Albrier: Yes. And where the audiologists were. In Herrick, they have an
audiology department vision and audiology. They received many
calls in that department.

Chall: That s a way for you to know whether your material is read, too,
isn t it?

Albrier: Yes. Some people called in and asked for more leaflets to give
to others, so we know that the public appreciated it.

Now we re going into the care of elderly people. A great
many of the younger people don t have the patience with elderly
people. They forget that they are slower. For instance, in
the morning, when it s time to get breakfast, they just push
the pan down the soap and the water and go. When they come
back, if they haven t gotten up enough energy to wash their faces,
they take it and go on. The elderly person s distressed all day
because they re treated that way and they don t dare say anything.

Chall: Oh my, that s no help to getting better, is it?

Albrier: No. That s right. They have to realize that they re working in
this ward where these elderly people are, and they re slower in
their gait and they may be harder to understand. And even the
practice of calling people by their first names: Nursing staff
come in and say, "Jane, why haven t you washed your face?"
These seniors were probably the type of person that grew up with
more respect for an elderly person than calling them by their
first name, right off the reel.

Chall: It is a little startling to be called by your first name by a nurse
whom you ve never met before.

Albrier: Yes. She sees it on your chart and comes in and says that. She
forgets that these elderly persons are from a different school.
All of those things will be brought up now. At Herrick now, the
whole patient staff is in on this, so they decided to have a
conference. They have skits. The skits will be made up of the
elderly themselves .

Chall: It s acting out what they ve experienced?

Albrier: Yes. We discuss them. Then they discuss volunteers coming into

the hospitals who have been trained to talk to the elderly patients
and those who don t have families, or families who are too busy
to see them on time. They re low in spirit.

Chall: Is that a project for the senior centers?

page two

295a

the herrick cross

New Ways to Older Hearts discussed

Mrs. Frances M. Albrier opens the meeting.

"If you live, you will be senior citi
zens someday," Mrs. Frances M. Albrier
told the audience at the "New Ways to
Older Hearts" meeting. Mrs. Albrier,
chairman of the board of trustees commit
tee on health care services to senior citi
zens, added, "Today, we are pioneering for
senior citizens who will come along after
we are gone."

The two hour gathering focused on the
interrelationship of a hospital and its
older patients. The program explored prob
lems and possible solutions in health care
delivery. Portions of the meeting were
videotaped for staff training programs.

Problems were dramatized in a skit where
Barbara Hail, emergency service clerk,
offered the hospital staff point of view
as she attempted to help a rapid succession
of imaginary patients to the background
noise of a tape recording made in the emer
gency service.

Mrs. Albrier and Advisory Trustee Ruth
Scheer then acted the parts of two older
patients discussing the various difficult
ies experienced in a hospital. The two
described the effects of having a hearing
problem and being yelled at, of "waiting,
waiting and not knowing what s going to
happen," and of being "just terrified of
hospitals."

Group discussions, where hospital staff
intermingled with older people, brought
forth many answers to the question "If
you were running a hospital what things
would you do to ... create a climate and
an atmosphere of trust . . . and to better
meet the needs of older persons?"

The suggestions, presented by spokesmen
from the groups, included a wide range of
concerns. Opportunities for recreation,
explanations for moves and procedures,
and asking patients about their needs were
suggested by one group. Assistant Director
of Volunteer Services Mrs. Betty Yourd
spoke for another group, recommending an
information board in the lobby, large-print
handouts about procedures, and asking the
patient whether the use of the first or
last name was preferred.

Carolyn Wehrmeister, patient activities,
mentioned problems with paperwork, delays
in response to nurse calls and transporta
tion difficulties for older people. Linda

June 1973

29 5b

"New Ways" parti
ci pants include,
from left, James
May field Kaye,
Mrs . Sam (Sophy)
Kagel, Mrs. Bar
bara Boscovich
and Mrs. Susie
Gaines .

Wolfe, R.P.T., suggested the use of perma
nent registration plates, the addition of
more senior Volunteers in the lobby to help
new patients settle in, and improvement of
education programs for both patients and
staff.

A three-member panel responded to the
suggestions. Mrs. Susie Gaines, a member
of the board s committee, told the hospital
staff in attendance, "You are the instru
ments of the hospital your hands are
important, your voices are important, your
hearts are important."

Mrs. Barbara Boscovich, Tele-Care super
visor, said activities for patients, quick
response to nurse calls and friendly visi
ting by Volunteers were all areas of pos
sible improvement. Mrs. Sam (Sophy) Kagel,
also from the trustees committee, empha
sized the importance of improved discharge
planning which, she said, should include
the older patient s family.

Closing the "process of discovery meet
ing," Mrs. Albrier said that more needed
to be done to "help you understand the
patient and help the patient understand
the hospital. Older people need tender
loving care, but, above all, I ask you to
remember human dignity."

the herrick cross

Herrick Memorial Hospital

2001 Dwight Way

Berkeley CA 94704

ADMINISTRATOR

Hershel W. Shelton

DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY

AND PUBLIC RELATIONS

David Marshall

PUBLIC RELATIONS ASSISTANT

Michael Oiehl
Editor-Photographer

Jeanne Gloe
Production Manager

the herrick cross is published to
keep our employees and Inservice
Volunteers informed of hospital news
and events and to recognize them
for personal or team acnievements.

Volume 27-Number
June 1978

296

Albrier: No, it will be a project of the hospital, of Herrick Hospital.
Herrick Hospital has more minority patients than any in the
Bay Area. They have more aged.

Chall: Is that because of the population of Berkeley?

Albrier: Yes. The population of Berkeley. The last census shows 16,000
people who were over sixty-five in Berkeley. And many of those
are ill. Herrick is getting so many who come in who have heart
problems. You see, they have a heart ward there, intensive care.
It s full all the time. The majority are elderly patients.

Chall: So they just have to practice a different kind of medicine.

Albrier: Besides those who have strokes, and those they have to rehabilitate.
That s where the hearing came in, and the vision came in, and the
use of their limbs came in.

Chall: Is there a special branch of nursing now for geriatrics?

Albrier: Yes, there is. Scholarships are being given to nurses who are
going into geriatric training.

Chall: That will help. But then you can t staff a large hospital with
special geriatric nurses.

Albrier: No. But a lot of the nurses are taking the courses. The

University of California has given several courses on geriatrics.
It s kind of a new field and they re coming into it.

Chall: This is the first time really the first generation that has

become old enough to be considered seniors in such a large number
as we have now. As you say, there ll be more and more of them.

Albrier: Then we have seniors who develop with their families stress.

So many families have troubles the younger people are with them
and they have the stress of livelihood, making ends meet, families
and that falls in on the older person. Pretty soon, they have
a stroke or something like that. They re hospitalized. Those
who are permanently disabled are sent to the nursing homes. That s
something else we have to deal with.

Then there s the mental patients. It s not their fault; it s
just a breakdown in the body the nerves of the brain; the cells
start deteriorating and they become mentally ill. We have four
mentally ill patients in our center now. They re not old. Two of
them are; another two are not. We have two of them who are under
fifty-five. The others are sixty-five or sixty-four. They come
to the center. They live near the center where I am. We can
tell when they haven t had their medication because all of them are

297

Albrier: talkative and argumentative. They get into arguments with other
seniors, and they re talkative. They ll sit and talk and talk.
They ll get on a subject they think about and talk.

It annoys the other seniors because they want to play cards.
They get furious and often I have to tell them about these patients
and that we must have some compassion, and just don t pay any
attention to them. That s the trouble. Then they say, "Oh,"
and finally they get used to them when they start, and ignore their

annoying them.
Chall: They become talkative when they haven t had their medication?

Albrier: Yes, they become talkative. There s one who said something to me
once. "Mrs. Albrier, so and so [she knows my name]. . . And I
said, "I don t know, dear." "Don t call me dear! I don t like to
be called dear." She went on and on about that. [Laughter] If I
hadn t known her, she would have frightened me I would have become
angry with her, or started arguing with her. So we have the trouble
of keeping the other seniors quiet, and letting them know what the
trouble is, and telling them to just ignore those who are
disturbed and go on about their business. They just sit there and
talk and talk. When they get tired, they get up and do something
else.

Chall: How do you know they are mental patients? Have you been told when
they come in or do you just learn it?

Albrier: No, you know by their actions that they re mentally ill. When they
register, we ask who their doctor is and the nearest relative. If
they become too talkative or argumentative get in too much trouble
with other seniors we ask the relatives something and they tell
us, inform us, about them, and about their habits. One habit is
that of wandering off, leaving the center.

Chall: That s a very good way of knowing if someone has problems.

Albrier: We never tell them they can t come. We make them feel welcome, and
tolerate them. That s why all the new seniors come in to lunch.
Sometimes they start in at lunchtime. One we had we had to call
the police. One was an alcoholic. One day she brought her big
dog a great, big, beautiful dog stood that high right at lunch
time.

The dog laid down by her. Some other seniors came. We have
a Russian lady. She can t speak much English, but she saw the dog
and had fits, went to the desk and said, "No dog where eat! No dog
where eat!" In Berkeley they have security police, community police
that do things in the community and check out some problems in

298

Albrier: communities. So we just called them. One of them came over,
went to her and talked to her, and said, "The dog can t stay
while you re eating." So, he went on out with her and. the dog.
That saved us. She probably would have resented one of us and think
we just didn t like her dog.

Chall: [Laughs] Well, you certainly have learned a lot.

Albrier: Yes.

[end insert tape 5, side 1]

Chaparral House

Chall: What s Chaparral House?

Albrier: Did I give you one of those pamphlets?

Chall: Yes. I was reading it this morning. That was something I didn t
know anything about.

Albrier: Chaparral House is the new senior home we call it a home for

seniors who become disabled. It came out of the idea of Strawberry
Creek Lodge, after it was built. Some of the board of directors,
like Mrs. Wallace Johnson, the president, had watched people move
into Strawberry Creek Lodge seniors and after a period of years
seven or eight years become disabled. They may come down with a
siege of rheumatism, or arthritis, or kidney infection, or
something, and they have to go into a nursing home or a place
where they get medication, and care. If they get them in time,
they can stay three or four months in a nursing home of that type,
and they get them back on their feet again, and they can go back
into their apartments.

It s a type of a nursing home home-like nursing home. It
will not have any of the atmosphere of a clinic or a nursing
home. It will be just as near to them coming out of their own
home or apartment into another home as possible.

Chall: That sounds very good.

Albrier: It will be a kind of model for new homes that are being built.

Chall: Was that built with federal funds?

Albrier: No.

299

Chall: Is that one of the satellite homes?

Albrier: No.

Chall: How is it built?

Albrier: It s built by contributions and a foundation.

Chall: How very fine. It has a board?

Albrier: Mr. and Mrs. Johnson gave the land. They owned that land and they
donated that land.

Chall: Which Johnson is that?

Albrier: Mr. and Mrs. Wallace Johnson.

Chall: The former mayor s wife?

Albrier: The former mayor s wife. Marian is her name.

Chall: My, that does sound fine.

Albrier: That was a brainchild of hers and his. He helped.

Chall: And it has a board of directors?

Albrier: Yes, and I m on the board of directors.

Chall: Are you the only black?

Albrier: She chose me to be on it yes.

Chall: And you re the only black member on it?

Albrier: Yes. Others will be appointed.

Chall: I see. I m glad to know that.

Albrier: I met her at the center in the senior center.

Chall: Was she active in it?

300

Senior Centers and the Committee on Aging

Albrier:

Chall:

Albrier :
Chall:

Albrier:
Chall:

She was one of the people that worked with the first senior center
that was started in Berkeley some years ago. They only had $5,000
and had the center in a church. Then they went broke and they
couldn t keep it up.

Then, when Wallace Johnson became mayor, he appointed seven
people in the city as a committee on aging. [1967] And I was the
only black on that . We studied the situation in Berkeley and
decided that we needed in Berkeley, after making a research of
the seniors 32,000 seniors in Berkeley, sixty-five and over that
we needed a multi-purpose senior center.

At that time, the government had given so much money to
states to the state commissions on aging. Janet Levy has always
been interested in senior centers down in this area. She was on
the board of the state commission on aging and she gave us the
information that they would need if we wrote a proposal. We were
advised that the commission would give us $15,000 for three years,
if it was matched. So we went to the city council and they said
they would match it. That made $30,000 a year. That s when we
established the multi-purpose senior center.

That s been a very fine project here, the senior centers,
models, too.

Yes.

Probably

I noticed from the papers that you went out on a rainy day about
a few months ago and dedicated the new centers.

Oh, the senior center?

It wasn t pouring rain like this today, but it was pretty muddy,
wasn t it?

Albrier: The rain started later in the evening, but not at the time of the
ground breaking.

Chall: Yes, there was an article in the Tribune that I saw. Is there

anything else you want to say in conclusion, now that you know

we re concluding? Just anything you feel that you should add here
before we close the tape.

300a

Oakland Tribune, December 17, 1977

Senior Center Ceremonies

Tribune .Berkeley Bureau

"Count Us In," read the little yellow buttons
worn by some of Berkeley s elderly citizens and
that is just what the city did yesterday with a
historic series of groundbreakings at three loca
tions across the city for the South Berkeley, West
Berkeley and North Berkeley senior centers.

The $3.5 million project was officially
launched under threatening skies when senior citi
zen Frances Albrier brandished a gold shovel
trimmed in Christmas red and green and tossed
the first spadeful of rain-softened dirt with a
resounding "whoopee!" \ ...,-&gt; i- ..,..,

She was assisted in the project by another
senior, Susie Gaines, and by Willie Sanders, presi
dent of the South Berkeley Center Advisory Coun
cil.

Introduced by Mayor Warren Widener, Mrs.
Albrier then took the microphone and said, "I feel
today like Dr. Martin Luther King did when he
gave his great speech, I have a dream. This has

been a dream of mine for a long time."

v - , .1 , . ~, * ". . .

The first ceremony at the South Berkeley
location at Ashby and Ellis was followed by
equally emotional gatherings at the West Berke
ley Center at Hearst and Sixth Street and the
North Berkeley site on Hearst and Grove Street.

fv$ ;&lt; . - i , ;i .*i

Widener and a host of dignitaries, including
City Council Members Gilda Feller, John Denton,
Susan Hone and Shirley Dean, traveled from site
to site on a minibus throughout the long afternoon
which ended with a reception at the Civic Center

for which the seniors had been busy baking ail
week. . . - m

City department heads, members of Berke
ley s Commission on Aging and a representative
from the state Department of Aging in Sacramen
to were on hand for the event A special .guest
was former Council Member Henry Ramsay, now
teaching law at the University of Color ado, ,jn
Denver, who had been instrumental in pushing
through the legislation to make the project o a
reality.

4*1 A

The centers will provide multipurpose spape
and facilities for a variety of programs, including
recreational, legal, health, educational and social.
Each center will serve daily hot lunches and ea.qh
has been designed to meet the special physical
needs of the aged. . -IT

The North and South senior centers are being
financed by the federal Public Works Program
while the West Berkeley Center is being funded
by federal Community Development and Title V,
Older American Act, grants. ...c~^

Berkeley first became involved with
grams for the aged in 1952 when the city assumed
administration of a private program operated by
four professional women s clubs. In 1963, thejisst
senior center was opened, in a Durant Avenge
church. . -S-T,! ; i .DBS

.. . , . ; .T t* ?* ^"BC _ . aonf.

As the Rev. James Stewart, pastor of McGee
, Avenue Baptist Church, said at the invocattp,
"This is a reminder that Berkeley takes care of
its own." . * *""

301

Albrier: I ve been very happy to share my experiences with the people and
with The Bancroft Library to go in their history.

Chall: I m happy to have been the catalyst through which you could share
it too, believe me. It s been a real pleasure for me. I ve
learned a lot.

Transcriber: Marie Herold
Final Typist: Marie Herold

302

INDEX Frances Albrier

Abrams, Estelle, 115

Acty, Ruth, vi-viii, 104-119, 289

agriculture, in the South, 10-11, 34-38, 57-58

Alameda County Democratic Women s Study Club, 168-169, 172, 175, 178, 195-196

Albrier, Frances:

civic and political activities, 60, 90-92, 103, 106-107, 150-300

education, 17-18, 23-29, 34, 46-55

employment and labor union activities, 53, 77-84, 87-89, 98-149, 275

family:

mother (Laura Redgrey) , 1-4, 12-13

father (Lewis L. Redgrey), 1-5, 10, 13, 16-17, 28, 34, 50, 61-64, 74-75,

158
grandmother (Johanna Bowen Redgrey), 1-14, 18-22, 26-28, 32-43, 49-50,

52, 54-57, 59, 63, 92, 140, 158, 192, 201, 228, 256, 263, 265, 267, 289
grandfather (George Redgrey), 5, 9-11, 36-38, 57-59
sister (Laura Ann), 1-3, 20, 28, 57, 62, 75
marriages: William Albert Jackson, 29-33, 63-66, 72-73, 81; Willie Albrier,

77, 85-89, 91-94, 107, 117, 131, 256
children, 29-30, 75-76, 81-83, 87-88, 92-94, 104, 148-149, 208, 250-256,

258
social and religious philosophy, 14, 32-33, 92-93, 140, 177-178, 192, 204,

206, 225-226, 264-267, 280, 289-291
travels, 259-267

American Federation of Labor, 215

Amerson, A. Wayne, 196a

Angus Club (East Bay), 125-126

Appomattox Club, 193-195

Association for the Study of Negro Life and History, 54

Association of Colored Women s Clubs, 41-42, 52, 105, 115, 119, 136, 140-141,

228-232, 252
Austin, Edith, 141, 259-260

Bailey, D Army, 200-202
Barkley, Alben, 184, 186
Barry, Raymond P., 159-161
Bass, Charlotta, 226-228
Beachman, Electa, 115
Beasley, Delilah, 97
Berkeley, Ca. :

hiring black teachers (1938-1943), 104-118

politics, 106-107, 198-213

race relations, 61-63, 68-69, 87, 94-96, 105, 119-128, 191-192, 198-213,
215, 217, 251-251a, 256

school integration, 205, 210-213, 256
Berkeley Democratic Club, 190-192
Berkeley Neighborhood Legal Services, 208
Berkeley Political Action Committee for Fair Housing, 202-203

303

Berkeley Women s City Club, 216-217
Berkeley Women s Town Council, 223-224

Berkley, Tom, 198, 247, 281

Bethune, Mary McLeod, 48, 53, 178, 232, 234-235, 240, 245, 258, 283, 285-286

birth control, 81-82

Bondurant, Mae, 130, 248

Brathwaite, Yvonne. See Burke

Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, 78-81, 83-84, 99-100

Brown, Dorothy, 115

Brown, Edmund G. , Sr., 182-183, 197, 203

Brown, Leo, 179-182, 206, 208

Brown, Zack, 202

Burke, Yvonne Brathwaite, 284-285

California Democratic Council [CDC], 182, 192, 196-199

Carver, George Washington, 15-16, 24, 46-47, 57-58, 290

Chaparral House (Berkeley, Ca.), 298-299

child care, 150, 172-173, 229-231, 234

Chisholm, Shirley, 178, 284

Cohelan, Jeffrey, 200, 224

Committee for Fair Housing (Berkeley, Ca.), 202-203

Communist party (radicals), 32, 64, 66, 73, 110-111, 117-119, 124, 201, 255,

268, 273-276, 288-289

Congress of Racial Equality [CORE], 276-278
Cross, Laurance, 180-181

Daly, E.A. , 116, 268

Dellums, C.L., 79, 138, 159-163, 184, 189, 268, 270-272, 281

Dellums, Ron, 200-202

Democratic party (California) :

Alameda County Central Committee, 159-165, 173, 176-186

Democratic clubs, 168-169, 172, 190-199

women s division, 170-172
Dickson, Virgil, 111-113
Dittmar, Carl, 181
Dixon, Lillian, 136-137, 140-141
Douglas, Helen Gahagan, 168-169
DuBois, W.E.B., 42-45, 56, 69, 234, 288
Dunn, Francis, 194

Easley, Joe, 99

East Bay Civil Rights Congress, 273

East Bay Democratic Club, 194-195

East Bay Organizations Employment Committee, 125-127

East Bay Women s Missionary Fellowship, 241-244

East Bay Women s Welfare Club, 104-105, 107-119, 252

304

Eastern Star, 238-241
election campaigns, local:

1938, Alameda County Democratic Central Committee, 159-163, 191

1939, Berkeley City Council, 106-107
election campaigns, state and national:

1944, presidential, 189

1948, assembly, 173-174

1948, presidential, 185-186

1950, assembly, 162-163

1958, California statewide, 182
Elks, Brotherhood of, 238-241
Equal Rights Amendment, 226
Erdman, Irene, 192, 215, 276

Fair Employment Practices, 137-138, 149-150, 183, 190, 203-204

fair housing, 202-203

Farley, James, 165

Fletcher, Arthur, 181-182

Ford, Velma, ix-x, 289

Friedman, Monroe, 173, 194

Garvey, Marcus, 65-72, 287-288

Gibson, D.G., 174-176, 179-180, 191, 193-194, 198, 268

Golden Gate Democratic Club, 195-196a

Goodlett, Carlton, 197, 235, 281

Gordon, Walter, 107-108, 110, 117, 184, 252, 270-272, 281

Graham, Elizabeth, 159-161

Gray, Ivah, 115

Grout, Helen, 220-221

Hamer, Fannie Lou, 233-234, 284, 286-287

Hawkins, Ollie, 145

Hector, Louise, 108-110

Height, Dorothy, 233-234

Herrick Hospital, (Berkeley, Ca.), 291-298

Howard, Mabel, 207

Howard University, 25-29, 49-57, 178, 207

Independent-Progressive party, 227

Indians (Blackfoot) . See Albrier, Frances; grandfather

Jackson, Ida, 104
Japanese-Americans, 249-250
Johnson, Arthur, 106, 255

305

Johnson, H.T.S., 123-124, 270-271

Johnson, Robert, 106

Jones, Frankie, 206-207, 270-273

Jordan, Barbara, 285

Kagel, Sophy, 292

Kaiser Shipyards (Richmond, Ca.), 128-139, 141

Kefauver, Estes, 187

Kerr, Clark, 210

King, Martin Luther, Jr., 45, 66, 277-279

Labor s Non-Partisan League, 102-105, 107, 159-161
labor unions, 107, 118-119

discrimination against Negroes, 99-101, 130-139, 141-144, 147, 149, 215,
267

organizing Negroes, 77-84, 86-87, 98-104

political education, 102-104

See also Labor s Non-Partisan League
Labuzan, Mary, 108

League of Colored Women Voters, Berkeley, Ca., 216
League of Women Voters, Berkeley, Ca., 214-218
Links, 237

Little Citizens Study and Welfare Club, 150-157
lynchings, 184, 189

Mallory, Arenia C., 283

Malone, William, 183

Marsh, Vivian Osborne, 205-206

Marshall, Margaret, 150, 152, 156

Matyas, Jennie, 103

Maurice, Jay, 121, 173

May, Bernice, 202, 217

Merchant Marines, U.S., 148-149

Messenger, 83-84

midwives, 2, 12, 18, 40-41

Minority Group Conference, 196a-198

Mitford, Jessica, 273-274

Moore s Shipyards (Oakland, Ca.), 131, 136-137

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) , 69, 116,

122, 141, 150, 184, 187, 189, 207-209, 226, 252, 268-275
National Council of Negro Women, 53, 210, 231-237
National Negro Congress, 267-268
National Youth Authority. See New Deal

306

Negroes:

birth control, 81-82

civil rights organizations, 267-281

concern for education, 14-15, 17-18, 41-52, 72, 140, 209, 212-213, 232,

236, 244, 250-259
employment, 4-5, 12, 16-17, 23-24, 30-33, 61, 64, 67-68, 73-78, 98-149,

177-178, 183, 251a-254
history, 244-247, 256-259
in the Depression, 73-74, 83, 89-92, 99, 102, 120-122, 149, 154, 190,

214-215, 243

in slavery, 5-10, 18, 20-22, 54
links to Africa, 53-54, 56, 65-72, 186, 259-262
migration to California, 4, 28-33, 61-64, 139, 150-157, 235-236
press, 56, 83-84, 120, 226-227, 235, 259-260, 281-282
relationships with Communist party. See Communist party
religion, 13-14, 19-22, 26, 35, 39-40, 55, 59, 61-62, 65, 68, 82, 92-93,

105-106, 122-127, 150-152, 156, 206, 209, 214, 243, 247, 264-267, 271,

278-279

representation in government and politics, 106-108, 158-213, 232-233, 235
wartime experiences, 55-56, 62, 67, 127-142, 145-149, 155, 213, 247-250
women s organizations, 22, 35, 41-42, 52-53, 72, 104-119, 136, 140-141,

228-244, 248, 252-253
See also Berkeley, Ca. ; Howard University; labor unions; leaders by name;

organizations by title; Tuskegee Institute; and women
Negro Historical and Cultural Society [Negro History Week], 244-247
New Deal:

National Youth Authority [NYA] , 91-92, 154, 232, 243
social security legislation, 189

Works Progress Administration [WPA] , 73-74, 89, 91, 154, 247
Newman, Mrs. H.E., 116, 118
Nichols, Roy, 198-199, 205, 209-210

Office of Economic Opportunity, California, 200-201

Packard, Walter, 190-192

Parent -Teacher Association [PTA], 250-251, 256-258

Payne, A. James, 123

Pickens, William, 49

Pittman, Tarea, 179, 189, 191, 207, 268, 270-272

Pleasant, Ida, 150, 152, 156

Post Office, U.S. :

racial discrimination, 145-148
Potts, Lillian, 181-182, 208
Potts, Weilan, 208
Pullman Company, 76-84

307

radicals. See Communist party

Radin, Max, 210

Railroad Cooks, Waiters, and Miscellaneous Help (Local 456), AFL, 79, 87,

98-100

Ladies Auxiliary, 53, 98-103, 105, 118-119, 143-144
Randolph, A. Philip, 78-81, 83-84, 99-100, 138-139, 267-268, 272, 281
Red Cross, 253-254

racial discrimination, 67, 127-128, 221a-222
Republican party (California) :

Alameda County Central Committee, 182, 206
Robeson, Paul, 288-289

Roosevelt, Franklin D. , 102, 134, 138, 188-189, 192, 199
Rose, Joshua, 247

Rumford, Byron, Sr. , 149, 173-174, 176-177, 179, 193-194, 201
Russell, Charles, 180-181

Scheer, Ruth, 215, 217

senior citizens, 60, 291-301

Sherik, Brownlee, 107

Shirpser, Clara, 162-163

Sibley, Carol, 210-211

Simmons, Ira, 200-202

Sledge, Cora Hayes, 229-230

social security legislation. See New Deal

Southern Christian Leadership Conference, 277-278

Sparkman, John J., 186-188

Speece, Fannie, 115-116

Steilberg, Walter, 110-111

Stevenson, Adlai, 186-187

Stripp, Fred, 207

Swanigan, Amilia, 86, 114

Sweeney, Wilmont, 198, 200, 202, 205, 209-210

Terrell, Mary Church, 48, 52, 232-233, 283, 285-286

Thurman, Howard, 244

Tilghman, Hettie, 121, 252-253

Truman, Harry, 184-189, 192

Tubman, Harriet, 41

Turner, Henry McNeal (Bishop), 53

Turner, Marie, 247-248

Tuskegee Institute, 12-18, 22-24, 36-37, 41-50, 58, 68, 140, 178, 257

Twentieth Century Democratic Club, 192, 194-196, 208

308

Universal Negro Improvement Association. See Garvey, Marcus
Urban League, 235-236

Vaughns, George, 106, 268-269
Vietnam War, 224-225

Wall, Fannie, 229-231

Wallace, Henry, 185-186

war, World Wars I, II. See Negroes, wartime experiences

Washington, Booker T. , 12-16, 24, 35-36, 41-46, 48-49, 51, 289-290

Washington, Mrs. Booker T., 22, 41, 140, 228, 232

Wheeler, Benjamin, 210

White, Clinton, 207-208

White, Walter, 189, 234

Wilkins, Roy, 288

Willkie, Wendell, 205

Wilson, Beth, 104

Wilson, Lionel, 198-199, 206

Wingfield, Marie Williams, 115

women :

as welders, 128-139, 141-143

expectations for, 26, 42, 47-48, 55, 204, 254-255

in labor unions, 78-81, 83-84, 100-102, 118

in the press, 227

See also Negroes; women s organizations
women in politics:

as candidates, 106-107, 284-285

attitudes towards, 225-226

in political parties, 168-173, 176-178, 276
Women s Democratic Conference, 169

Women s International League for Peace and Freedom, 224-225
Woodson, Carter G. , 53-54, 245, 258
Works Progress Administration. See New Deal
Wysinger, Mrs. M. , 117

Young Women s Christian Association, Oakland, Ca. , 216, 219-224
Ziegler, C.L. , 110-111

Male a Chall

Graduated from Reed College in 19^2 with a B.A.
degree, and from the State University of .Iowa in
19^3 with an.M.A. degree in Political Science.

Wage Rate Analyst with the Twelfth Regional War
Labor Board, 19^3-19^5, specializing in agricul
ture and services. Research and writing in the
New York public relations firm of Edward L.
Bernays , 19^6-19^7 , and research and statistics
for the Oakland Area Community Chest and Council
of Social Agencies 19U8-1951.

Active in community affairs as a director and
past president of the League of Women Voters of
the Hayward Area specializing in state and local
government; on county-wide committees in the
field of mental health; on election campaign
committees for school tax and bond measures, and
candidates for school board and state legislature

Employed in 196? by the Regional Oral History
Office interviewing in fields of agriculture and
water resources, Jewish Community history, and
women leaders in civic affairs and politics.