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Full text of "Report of the congressional committees investigating the Iran- Contra Affair : with supplemental, minority, and additional views"

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100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987 



Senate Report 

No. 216 




IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 4 
DEPOSITIONS 



United States Congressional Serial Set 

Serial Number 13745 



United States Government Printing Office 
Washington : 1989 



Union Calendar No. 277 
100th Congress, 1st Session 
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the 

Iran-Contra Affair 

Appendix B: Volume 4 
Depositions 



Daniel K. Inouye, Chairman, 
Senate Select Committee 

Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman, 
House Select Committee 



U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives 

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate 

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House 

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed. 

November 17, 1987.— Ordered to be printed. 



Washington : 1988 



Bnitcd 3t3tcs 3cnatt 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON. DC 20510-6480 



March 1, 1988 

Honorable John C. Stennis 
President pro tempore 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 

Dear Mr. President: 

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to 
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes 
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become 
available. 



Sincerely, 




Warren B. Rudman 
Vice Chairman 



III 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON, DC 20515 

(202) 226-7902 

March 1, 1988 



The Honorable Jim Wright 
Speaker of the House 
U. S. Capitol 
Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr. Speaker: 

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and 
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st 
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the 
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair , 
House Report No. 100-433, 100th Congress, 1st Session. 

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the 
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of 
Appendix B have been declassified for-^elease to the public. 

enely yours. 




Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman 



United States Senate 

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman 
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman 

George J. Mitchell, Maine 

Sam Nunn, Georgia 
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland 
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama 
David L. Boren, Oklahoma 

James A. McClure, Idaho 

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah 

William S. Cohen, Maine 

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

To the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 



VI 



United States House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
Transactions with Iran 

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman 
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman 

Thomas S. Foley, Washington 

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey 

Jack Brooks, Texas 

Louis Stokes, Ohio 

Les Aspin, Wisconsin 

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts 

Ed Jenkins, Georgia 

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking Republican 

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan 

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois 

Jim Courter, New Jersey 

Bill McCoUum, Florida 

Michael DeWine, Ohio 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



VII 



United States Senate 



Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to 
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

to the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 

Associate Counsels 



C. H. Albright, Jr. 
Daniel Finn 
C. H. Holmes 
James E. Kaplan 
Charles M. Kerr 
Joel P. Lisker 



W. T. McGough, Jr. 
Richard D. Parry 
John D. Saxon 
Terry A. Smiljanich 
Timothy C. Woodcock 



Committee Staff 



Assistant Counsels 



Legal Counsel 
Intelligence/Foreign 

Policy Analysts 
Investigators 



Press Assistant 
General Accounting 
Office Detailees 



Security Officer 
Security Assistants 



Chief Clerk 
Deputy Chief Clerk 



Steven D. Arkin* 
Isabel K. McGinty 
John R. Monsky 
Victoria F. Nourse 
Philip Bobbitt 
Rand H. Fishbein 
Thomas Polgar 
Lawrence R. 

Embrey, Sr. 
David E. Faulkner 
Henry J. Flynn 
Samuel Hirsch 
John J. Cronin 
Olga E. Johnson 
John C. Martin 
Melinda Suddes* 
Robert Wagner 
Louis H. Zanardi 
Benjamin C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David Carty 
Kim Lasater 
Scott R. Thompson 
Judith M. Keating* 
Scott R. Ferguson 



Staff Assistants 



Administrative Staff 



Secretaries 



Receptionist 
Computer Center 
Detailee 



John K. Appleby 
Ruth Balin 
Robert E. Esler 
Ken Foster* 
Martin H. Garvey 
Rachel D. Kaganoff* 
Craig L. Keller 
Hawley K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen G. Miller 
Jennie L. Pickford* 
Michael A. Ray nor 
Joseph D. 

Small wood* 
Kristin K. Trenholm 
Thomas E. Tremble 
Bruce Vaughn 
Laura J. Ison 
Hilary Phillips 
Winifred A. Williams* 
Nancy S. Durflinger 
Shari D. Jenifer 
Kathryn A. Momot 
Cindy Pearson 
Debra S. Sheffield* 
Ramona H. Green 
Preston Sweet 



VIII 



Committee Members' Designated Liaison 



Senator Inouye 
Senator Rudman 

Senator Mitchell 

Senator Nunn 

Senator Sarbanes 
Senator Heflin 



Peter Simons 
William V. Cowan 
Thomas C. Polgar 
Richard H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore Hill 
Jeffrey H. Smith 
Frederick Millhiser 
Thomas J. Young 



Senator Boren 

Senator McClure 
Senator Hatch 

Senator Cohen 

Senator Trible 



Sven Holmes 
Blythe Thomas 
Jack Gerard 
Dee V. Benson 
James G. Phillips 
James Dykstra 
L. Britt Snider 
Richard Cullen 



Part Time* 



Assistant Counsel 
Hearings Coordinator 
Staff Assistants 



Interns 



Peter V. Letsou 
Joan M. Ansheles 
Edward P. 

Flaherty, Jr. 
Barbara H. Hummell 
David G. Wiencek 
Nona Balaban 
Edward E. 

Eldridge, III 
Elizabeth J. Glennie 
Stephen A. Higginson 
Laura T. Kunian 
Julia F. Kogan 
Catherine L. Udell 



Document Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 



Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 
Edward L. Keenan 
Lewis Liman 
Catherine Roe 
Susan Walsh 



*The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during 
the life of the Committee, provided services. 



IX 



United States House of Representatives 



Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 



Majority Staff 



Special Deputy 

Chief Counsel 
Staff Counsels 



Press Liaison 
Chief Clerk 
Assistant Clerk 
Research Director 
Research Assistants 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Charles Tiefer 

Kenneth M. Ballen 
Patrick J. Carome 
V. Thomas 

Fryman, Jr. 
Pamela J. 

Naughton 
Joseph P. Saba 
Robert J. Havel 
Ellen P. Rayner 
Debra M. Cabral 
Louis Fisher 
Christine C. 

Birmann 
Julius M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth D. Harvey 
James E. Rosenthal 



Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive Assistant 
Staff Assistants 



Catherine L. 

Zimmer 
Charles G. Ratcliff 
Stephen M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth S. Wright 
Bonnie J. Brown 
Christina Kalbouss 
Sandra L. Koehler 
Jan L. Suter 
Katherine E. Urban 
Kristine Willie 
Mary K. Yount 



Minority Staff 



Associate Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant Minority 

Counsel 
Minority Research 

Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



Robert W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth R. Buck 

Bruce E. Fein 



Minority Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority Executive 
Assistant 

Minority Staff 
Assistant 



Michael J. Malbin 

Molly W. Tully 

Margaret A. 
Dillenburg 



Committee Staff 



Investigators 



Director of Security 



Robert A. 

Bermingham 
James J. Black 
Thomas N. 

Ciehanski 
William A. Davis, 

III 
Clark B. Hall 
Allan E. Hobron 
Roger L. Kreuzer 
Donald Remstein 
Jack W. Taylor 
Timothy E. Tray lor 
Bobby E. Pojje 



Security Officers 



Editor 

Deputy Editor 
Associate Editor 
Production Editor 
Hearing Editors 

Printing Clerk 



Rafael Luna, Jr. 
Theresa M. Martin 
Milagros Martinez 
Clayton C. Miller 
Angel R. Torres 
Joseph Foote 
Lisa L. Berger 
Nina Graybill 
Mary J. Scroggins 
David L. White 
Stephen G. Regan 
G. R. Beckett 



Associate Staff 



Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 



Michael H. 

Van Dusen 
Christopher Kojm 
R. Spencer Oliver 
Bert D. Hammond 
Victor Zangla 
Heather S. Foley 
Werner W. Brandt 
M. Elaine Mielke 
James J. 

Schweitzer 
William M. Jones 

Michael J. O'Neil 
Richard M. Giza 
Richard E. Clark 
Warren L. Nelson 



Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courter 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General Counsel to 

the Clerk 



Michael W. Sheehy 

Robert H. Brink 

Steven K. Berry 
David S. Addington 
Diane S. Doman 

Dennis E. Teti 

Tina L. Westby 

Nicholas P. Wise 

Steven R. Ross 



XI 



Contents 

Volume 4 



Preface XXI 

Channell, Carl R 1 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer) 701 

Chatham. Benjamin P 757 

CIA Air Branch Chief 791 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief 933 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate 955 

CIA Chief 1 147 

CIA Communicator 1 183 

CIA Identity "A" 1305 



XIII 



Depositions 



Volume 1 



Airline Proprietary Project Officer. 
Alvarez, Francisco J. 
Allen, Charles. 
Arcos, Cresencio. 



Volume 2 



Volume 3 



Armitage, Richard. 
Artiano, Martin L. 
Associate DDO (CIA). 
Baker, James A., III. 
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter. 
Barnett, Ana. 
Bartlett, Linda June. 
Bastian, James H. 
Brady, Nicholas F. 
Brown, Arthur E., Jr. 



Byrne, Phyllis M. 
Calero, Adolfo. 
Castillo, Tomas ("W"). 
Cave, George W. 
C/CATF. 



Volume 4 

Channell, Carl R. 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer). 

Chatham, Benjamin P. 

CIA Air Branch Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate. 

CIA Chief. 

CIA Communicator. 

CIA Identity "A". 



XV 



Volume 5 

CIA Officer. 

Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr. 

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink). 

Clarke, George. 

Clarridge, Dewey R. 

Cline, Ray S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen, Harold G. 

Volume 6 

Collier, George E. 

Cole, Gary. 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA. 

Conrad, Daniel L. 



Volume 7 



Cooper, Charles J. 
Coors, Joseph. 
Corbin, Joan. 
Corr, Edwin G. 
Coward, John C. 
Coy, Craig R 
Crawford, Iain T.R. 



Crawford, Susan. 
Crowe, Adm. William J. 
Currier, Kevin W. 
DCM, Country 15. 
DEA Agent 1. 
DEA Agent 2. 
DEA Agent 3. 
deGraffenreid, Kenneth, 
de la Torre, Hugo. 
Deputy Chief "DC". 



Duemling, Robert W. 
DIA Major. 
Dietel, J. Edwin. 
Dowling, Father Thomas. 
Dutton, Robert C. 
Earl, Robert. 



Volume 8 



Volume 9 



XVI 



Volume 10 



Farber, Jacob. 
Feldman, Jeffrey. 
Fischer, David C. 
Floor, Emanuel A. 
Former CIA Officer. 
Fraser, Donald. 
Fraser, Edie. 
Fuller, Craig L. 



Volume 11 



Furmark, Roy. 

Gadd, Richard. 

Gaffney, Henry. 

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A. Rudd). 

Galvin, Gen. John R. 

Gantt, Florence. 

Garwood, Ellen Clayton. 

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C. 

Gates, Robert M. 

Glanz, Anne. 



Volume 12 



George, Clair. 
Godard, Ronald D. 
Godson, Roy S. 
Golden, William. 
Gomez, Francis D. 
Goodman, Adam. 
Gorman, Paul F. 
Graham, Daniel O. 
Gregg, Donald P. 
Gregorie, Richard D. 
Guillen, Adriana. 



Hakim, Albert. 



Hall, Wilma. 
Hasenfus, Eugene. 
Hirtle, Jonathan J. 
Hooper, Bruce. 



Volume 13 



Volume 14 



XVII 



Hunt, Nelson Bunker. 
Ikle, Fred C. 
Jensen, D. Lowell. 
Juchniewicz, Edward 
Kagan, Robert W. 
Keel, Alton G. 
Kellner, Leon B. 
Kelly, John H. 
Kiszynski, George. 



Koch, Noel C. 
Kuykendall, Dan H. 
Langton, William G. 
Lawn, John C. 
Leachman, Chris J., Jr. 
Ledeen, Michael A. 



Lei want, David O. 
Lilac, Robert H. 
Lincoln, Col. James B. 
Littledale, Krishna S. 
McDonald, John William. 
McFarlane, Robert C. 
McKay, Lt. Col. John C. 
McLaughlin, Jane E. 



McMahon, John N. 
McMahon, Stephen. 
McNeil, Frank. 
Makowka, Bernard. 
Marostica, Don. 
Marsh, John. 
Mason, Robert H. 



Meese, Edwin IIL 
Melton, Richard H. 
Merchant, Brian T. 
Meo, Philip H. 
Miller, Arthur J. 
Miller, Henry S. 
Miller, Johnathan. 



Volume 15 



Volume 16 



Volume 17 



Volume 18 



XVIII 



Miller, Richard R. 



Motley, Langhorne A. 
Mulligan, David R 
Nagy, Alex G. 
Napier, Shirley A. 
Newington, Barbara. 
North, Oliver L. 
O'Boyle, William B. 
Osborne, Duncan. 
Owen, Robert W. 
Pena, Richard. 
Pickering, Thomas. 
Poindexter, John M. 



Posey, Thomas V. 
Powell, Gen. Colin L. 
Price, Charles H., II. 
Proprietary Manager. 
Proprietary Pilot. 
Radzimski, James R. 
Ramsey, John W. 
Ransom, David M. 



Volume 19 



Volume 20 



Volume 21 



Volume 22 



Raymond, Walter, Jr. 

Regan, Donald T. 

Reich, Otto J. 

Revell, Oliver B. 

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman). 

Reynolds, William B. 



Volume 23 



Richard, Mark M. 
Richardson, John, Jr. 
Robelo, Alfonso. 
Robinette, Glenn A. 
Rodriguez, Felix I. 
Roseman, David. 



XIX 



Rosenblatt, William. 

Royer, Larry. 

Rudd, Glenn A. 

Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney). 



Rugg, John J. 
Russo, Vincent M. 
Sanchez, Nestor. 
Scharf, Lawrence. 
Schweitzer, Robert L. 
Sciaroni, Bretton G. 
Secord, Richard V. 



Shackley, Theodore G. 
Sigur, Gaston J. 
Simpson, Major C. 
Sinclair, Thomas C. 
Singlaub, John K. 



Slease, Clyde H., IIL 
Smith, Clifton. 
Sofaer, Abraham D. 
Steele, Col. James J. 
Taft, William H., IV. 
Tashiro, Jack T. 
Teicher, Howard. 
Thompson, Paul. 
Tillman, Jacqueline. 



Volume 24 



Volume 25 



Volume 26 



Volume 27 



Thurman, Gen. Maxwell. 

Trott, Stephen S. 

Tull, James L. 

Vessey, John. 

Walker, William G. 

Watson, Samuel J., IIL 

Weinberger, Caspar. 

Weld, William. 

Wickham, John. 

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark). 



XX 



Preface 



The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing 
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290 
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation. 

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses 
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the 
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings. 

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority 
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the 
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals 
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents 
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents. 

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet 
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded 
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review 
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc- 
tions to the Select Committees. 

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege 
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were 
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were 
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals 
retained their own counsel. 

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted 
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that, 
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid 
answering a question, his or her compelled responses— or leads or collateral 
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal 
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false 
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order. 

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House, 
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some 
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some 
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons. 

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious 
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information 
not considered germane to the investigation. 

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow- 
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence — were developed by Select 
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were 
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the 
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for 
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original 



XXI 



exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the 
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in- 
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate. 

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages, 
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts 
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order. 



XXII 



Publications of the Senate and House 
Select Committees 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, 
1 volume, 1987. 

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988. 
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988. 

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S. 
Government Printing Office. 



XXIII 



STENOGRAPHIC mNUTSS 
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Not for QnoUtioa or 
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Committee Hearlnfi 
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under provUont of LO. 12356 
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PAGE 1 



RPTS DOTSOM 
DCMN PARKER 



DEPOSITION or CARL R. CHAKNELL 



Tuasday, Sapt«nb«E 1, 1987 



U.S. Hous* of RapE«s«ntatlv«s > 

S«l«ct Committa* to Invastlgata Covart 

Asms Tcansactions with Iran, 
Washington. O.C. 



Tha oommlttaa mat. pucsuant to call, at 11=00 a.m. in Roc 
2203. Raybusn Housa Oiiica Building, with Tom Ftyman. Housa 
Salaot Committaa. pxasiding. 

Prasant: On bahali oi Reusa Saiaot Committaa: Tom 

Sptncxc o r.o«r. 

Fxyaan. Xannath R. Buck and 01i »a g Sy ai tcAJL^ 

On bahali oi Sanata Salaot Comaittaa' Tom HcGough and 
Hanry J. riynn. 



On behalf of the Witness: Alexia Morrison, Attornev-at-Law, 
Swidler & Berlin, Washinaton, D.C. 



m 



NAME- 

23 
24 
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26 
27 
28 
29 
30 
31 
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UNClASSiHED .... 



NflMy DKiMrified/RelMfe I 
unde 
brD.SMo. 



CARL R. CHAMNELL 
having b««n iitst duly sworn, was called as a witness 
hetttin. and was axaminad and tastifiad as follows : 

EXAHINATIOK OK BEHALF OF THE SENATE SELECT 
COMMITTEE 

BY MX. FRYHAK: 
fi Mr. Channal. would you stata your iull nam* ior tha 
racord, plaasa? 

A Charlas Russall Channall 
e Oii tha racord a sacond. 

(Discussion hald oii tha racord. 1 

MR. FRYHAKi Back on tha racozd. 

BY MR. FRYHANi 
fi Mr. Channal^ do you now ratlda In Washington. D.C.? 
A Yas. I do. 
fi Uhaza wara you born? 
A In Elkins. Hast Virginia, 
a Hhat was your data oi birth? 
A 5-35-t«5. 

a Rava you avar sazvad in tha military? 
A Ya>. I hava. 

a Hhat wara tha data* of your sarvica? 
A 1970 through 1973. 



provUofis of LO. 12356 
Naliofui Security Council 



UNCUSSIHED 



iciAssra 



NAM- 

U8 

149 

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52 
S3 
54 
55 
56 
57 
58 
59 
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61 
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66 
67 
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72 



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PAGE 



a Uhat was your position? 

X I was a Spacialist 5 in tha Unitad Statas Amy. 

fi Uhaia uaia you stationad? 

A At rott Knox, Kantuckyj Garitany, Fort Knox, 
Kentucky, again, and Chazlaston, Wast Virginia. 

S Did you attand collaga? 

A Yas, I did. 

fi Uhara did you attand? 

A At Amarican Unlvarsity. 

S Uhat yaars? 

A Sixty-thraa through slxty-aight. 

Q Uhat studias did you puxsua? 

A Intarnational ralations. 

fi Hara you a iull-tina studant during that pariod? 

A Yas . 

fi Did you obtain a dagraa? 

A No, not at that tiaa . 

fi Did you pursua studias at any unlvarsity othar than 

Anarican Unlvarsity? 

A Z want to Union Thaologleal Saalnary in Richnond, 

Virginia in 1969. 

fi Hhat coursa oi study did you pursua thara? 

A Xhaelogy. 

fi Did you obtain a dagraa thara? 

A No. I was thara ior just on* year. 



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73 
714 
75 
76 
77 
78 
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86 
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96 
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HIR2UU000 O*'"^ PXGE 

a What was th« laason ior und«ttaking a course of 
study in thaology? 

A I had baan vary intarastad in both politics and 
religion all ny Ufa, and whan I laft knatican Univarsity, I 
was rathar upsat at what was going on both at tha univarsity 
and actually uithin tha univarsity. Thara uara lots of 
problans going on, and I thought mayba that was just tha 
wrong coursa of study for mm and aayba I should hava bean 
focusing on anothar vary strong intarast in my lifa that I 
probably should hava baan foeusad on mora haavlly than X 
did . 

fi What was it that distuzbad you at tha Amarlean 
Univarsity? 

ns. nORRlsOK' is this zalavantr 

nR. FRYHAK: X think as prallmlnary background. I 
don't intend to pursue this a great deal. 

THE WXTKESS: There was great social upheaval all 
over tha United States on many imatlean campuses. The war 
in Vietnam was a vary hot issua in American University, of 
course, tha social revolution ioz civil rights, black 
studies. African culture, tha awakening of minority peoples 
in unlvazsltles to what they considered to be their rights. 

Hhat's odd about this, oi ceuzsa. is they wanted to 
be integrated into American society by having separata 
dormitories, separata studies and separate classes. It was 



WUiSSW 



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WlPiSSifitfl 



P&GE 5 



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a lathez contradiction, I thought. Thay took ov«z th« 
adninistzation building at ona tim* . Thar* was a lot oi 
havoc. It was vary damoralizing to i»» . 

Q Uara you activa as an undargraduata in studant 
political affairs? 

A Soma, not in an alaetad way. I was on. I think, 
ona or two advisory boards or soaathing Ilka that at tha 
Amarican Univarsity. 

2 Did you considar yoursali a consarvativa as an 
undacgr aduata? 

A KO. 

e Did you considar youraalf a libazal? 

A Yas. 

S And wara thasa political organizations that you 
wara involvad with organizations assooiatad with libaral 
positions? 

A Yas . It was a studant govaznaant. It wasn't a 
club. 

fi You pursuad a couzsa oi study in thaology for ona 
yaar at Union grtlfc< i t TK<-0^» fti t»\ ' 

A That's right. 

fi Hhy did you dacida to |rop that eoursa of study 
aitar ona yaar? 

A I daeidad that I was probably in tha wrong placa. 
ny intarast in Christianity and tha principlas of 



uNWSsro 



HAME : 
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1140 

1U1 
1U2 
1(43 

mu 
ms 

1>46 
1147 



HIR214UO0O 



yNCUSSiaEi).... 



Chiistianity in social movanants was sonathing that was v^zy 
mpoitant to ma. tha moial basis for thasa social novanants; 
and, as I hava said to many paopla, what wa waia studying 
uas how to gat tha aiz-conditioning budgat through tha 
church govarning body. 

2 How, thara cana a tima-- 

X In Richitond. that's a big daal. 

fi Thaza cama a tina whan you bagan to uoiK ior an 
organization callad tha Mational Consarvatlva Political 
Action Conmittaa. 

A That's right. 

2 what yaar was-that? 

A 1975. 

2 What did you do batwaan 1969 and 1976? 

A I spant thraa yaazs in tha military. I cana back 
to Washington, and did soma study at Aaazican Univarsity. I 
was looking for work hara in polltios. and I was spanding a 
vary graat daal of tima> bacausa sy fathar had just diad and 
ny mothar uas dabilitatad. dividing my tiaa a lot in Wast 
Virginia trying to halp har out. 

H* had a family businast thaza. Both ay parants 
diad ovaz a four-yaar paziod oi having caneaz. and ay 
bzothaz is aazziad and was not abla to ooma back hona . I 
was not mazziad and so I showad up a lot. 

2 So foz pazt oi this ti«a you wara involvad in tha 




W 



N&riE : 
lUS 
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HIR2U14O0O P»GE 7 

family business in H«st Virginia? ^T^ 

A It was constant. I split^ I didn't want to stay 
thace. I uantad to work in politics in Washington. So you 
can't puzsua that if you at* not hat*. But yat ua uaza 
having thasa pzoblans and tha businass had pzoblans. ny 
iathec had diad . Hy mothaz had takan ovat tha businass 
becausa sha uas givan tha businass. Sha didn't knou what to 
do. Sha was gatting sickat, and so I am sura you undazstand 
how you and up gatting caught and spandlng a lot of tima . 

S How did you cona to ba associatad with tha Hational 
Consazvativa Political Action Comalttaa in 1976? knd I taka 
it that organization is fraquantly rafarzad to by Its 
initials NCPAC. Is that oorract? 

A Right. I want to eaapaign training school that was 
advertisad in Azllngton, Virginia, and it was a waak long 
canpaign tachnlqua tzainlng school, and at tha and of tha 
waak nr . Dolan cama to ma and said. ''Ara you just haza to 
study, or ara you on a eengrassional staff? Hhy did you 
dacida to coma? ' ' 

I said. ''I am looking for a way to bagin to braak 
into polltlea. and I find this is vary Intarasting, and I 
would Ilka to particlpata out in tha country, saaing what 
grass roots politics is lika.'' Ha said. ''Hall, wa hava 
savazal positions opan for tha 1976 campaign. Thay aza. of 
couzsa, part tima. thay only last four months or somathing. 



UNCLilSSIFiED 



NAHE- HIR2U14000 



yfiijLMSiritO 






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19U 
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Uould you cara to go to Iowa and b« our iapi«s*ntativa in 

7u' 



tha Kan ViTToit carapaign?'' 

Sinca I was vaty intaiastad to do anything to 
leatn. I mada the mistaka of saying yas . So I want. 

e You mantionad Mi. Dolan. Uho is Ht . Dolan and what 
IS his full nama? 

A John T. Dolan was ona of tha ioundazs oi tha 
National Consatvativa Political Action Committaa. 
Q Was ha also known as Tarry Dolan? 
Yas. 

At this tiiia. in 1976> was ha an oiiicar of KC?AC? 
Ha was tha haad oi NCPAC. 



Ciiactivaly tha had of tha organization? 



Yas 



Now, you nantionad as an undargraduata , to tha 
axtant you had baan involvad in political afialrs you had 
baan involvad in what you consldarad llbaral organizations. 
Hhat was tha raason ior you to anroll In this canpaign 
school oi tha National Consarvatlva Polltloal Action 
Jomnlttaa? 

A Th* ad that KCPAC ran llstad what thay wara going 
to taach, and I thought that was iasolnatlng/ a grass roots 
organization, what is a phona bank, how to writa dlract 
mail, how to targat dlract mall, advartislng ior candidatas, 
avants or campaigns, mobilizing grass roots support. 



UNOUSSIFIED 



10 



KAME ' 
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......JNOlASSlFiEO 



l^lRZ4^aoo %#• ■ ^— ' --^ "" P»GE 9 

everything to do with creating a canpaign machine. 

That has always fascinated ne . It was a vary 
extensive agenda. 

5 So an I correct in understanding iron your answer 
that your enrollment in the school did not reflect at this 
time any identification on your part with the political 
agenda of NCPAC. 

1 I didn't know what that was. 

2 You were interested in the mechanics of campaigns; 
IS that correct? 

k Right. 

fi ^id you talk with Hx . Dolan about political issues 
during this week and his position on different issues? 

K I don't recall that at all. Z think NCPAC was only 
a year old at this point. I am not even sure that it had 
any election records, you know. It hadn't participated in 
any elections yet. 

6 You said you were asked to pmitlclpate in a 
campaign in lowai Is that corxeot? 

A That's the one he offered. 

fi Has the candidate that you were to work for a 
XepublloanT 

A Yes, he was. 

fi Old you know anything about hit position on various< 
political Issues? 



\m 



llLilSSIFFI 



11 



^AC*i ''. ooin 



HknZ HIR2'4U000 " P4GE lo 

223 A Hot b«fot« I u«nt. 

22U 2 So you didn't knou li your political vlaws w*ia 

225 similar to his viaws . 

226 A Right. 

227 2 Old you laain aitat you uotkad for him foz a whila? 

228 A Tha iirst day. I maan I was briaiad. Actually what 

229 thay uata going to do was to ask na to coma out and biiaf ma 

230 than, and saa ii avazything would work out. and than coma 

231 back lataz . ^ut I was going to dtlva out thaza. and I said 

232 to Tatcy. ii I am going to dziva all tha way out thaza, I an 

233 not going to coma back hata and drlva out again. Z am going 
2314 to dziva out and ii I faal mysali coapatibla with this man's 

235 viaws . X am just going to stay, so Z don't want to go. 

236 izankly, until you think that you aza willing to pay ma to 

237 go bacausa Z will bagin or Z will say iozgat it. 

238 fi Aftaz you had this maating with him, did you 

239 considar your viaws to ba coapatlbla? 

2140 A Oh. yas. Zt was all right. I didn't think 

2'4l that — vary iaw oi tha vlaws ha had had much to do with 

2i«2 intaznatlonal politics, which was also all right with ma. 

2143 bacausa Z uantad to laazn a vary graat daal about domastic 

2UM politics anyway, and it was a oongrassional alaction. 

2U5 a Old you considar at this point, in 1976. that you 

2146 had spaclilo viaws on intarnatlonal political issuas? 

2<47 A Oh. yas. 



"f^msm 



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KAHE : 
2148 
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HIR2m4000 



.... yiUIIOED ■■ 



A I gu«ss all of us had passionate viaws on Viatnan. 
That was a big issua. 

2 What was your viau? 

A On Viatnan? 

2 Y«s. 

A That wa had nada * tarribla mlstaka starting in 
1965 by tha incramantal incraasa< oi Anarlcan iorcas to 
Viatnait without any claar-cut political goals which wa waia 
pursuing, and which wa wara going to ain to attain; that it 
was an opan-andad gradual comaitiiant . and that it had lad us 
to a graat daal of blaading'j^out «^r any purposa for tha 
novaiiant, and lika Austria did to Garnany, tha smallar. 
waakar ally had lockad in tha graataz ally to a causa which 
uld causa tha graatar ally to blaad a lot aora for no Ch^\ 



\ 



wo 
reason. 

I guass in short you night say I fait wa shoulJ 
aithar hava had a vary good political raason for baing thara 
and givan than nassiva aid and possibly daclara war, if it 
was worth a 100,000 troops in August of 1985. and than 
hundrads and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of troops 
later, we probably should have declared war and had that as 
a political purpose for being there, or decided very 
reluctantly that this was an area of the world where we 
might not be able to create or aalntaln our political goals 



% 



lussife 



13 



yiliiSSirlED 



H\ni HIRZitUOOO 



PkGC 12 



273 

27U 

27S 

276 

277 

278 

279 

280 

281 

282 

283 

28U 

285 

286 

287 

288 

289 

290 

291 

292 

293 

29U 

295 

296 

297 



and thaiafora> wa would not us* nilitary ioica. 

U* would sinply us* diplomacy, try to r*concil* oui 
ally with his advaisary. 

2 Uh*n you bagan to work in this campaign in 1976. 
had you conclud*d that a military solution was not faasibl* 
in Viatnam? 

A Ua had alraady lost. It was ovar. I concluded 

that our policy had randarad our military principlas thara 

as waak as possibla, had baggad ior daiaat. And I thought 

rrut 
that was a tarribla thing. Wa lost 50.000 paopla b7 <aga and 

billions upon billions of dollars. Ha could hava rabuilt 

avary ghatto in Amarica with tha monay w* wastad in Viatnam. 

a Kow, on domastlo issuas you say you wara 

comfottabla with tha domastio viaws oi tha candidata in 

Iowa? 

A Yas. 

a Did you considar t^s vlawt oonsacvativa or libacal? 
Or did you oonsidar tham ona way or tha othar? 

A Hall. I supposadly oonsldazad tham just compatibla 
with what X ganazally thought. 

a Hon long was this job in tha Iowa compaign? 

A It lastad until tha and oi Novambar 1976. 

a And you waza on tha payroll oi tha campaign? 

A Through— I guass It was. I got paid ior Kovambar. 

a But you wara balng paid by tha oampalgn, not by 



mm ^PCTTn 



14 



KAHE: KIRaHMOOO 




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iliSSIilED 



PkGE 13 



NCPAC? 

A No> KCPAC gava a grant to th* eaapaign, an in-kind 
contribution for ma. 

fi So you wara in afiact a contribution by HCPAC to 
this campaign, to halp out in tha campaign? 

A That is right. 

fi And than did you contlnua with KCPAC aitar Novambar 
of 1976? 

A I startad again In. eight aitar Christmas in 1977, 
anticipatad in tha fiva or savan stata laglslatura racas in 
tha Stata of Virginia. 

fi And wara you uorXlng undar He. Dolan during thasa 
racas ? 

A Yas. Yas, I was. 

e Uara thasa congrasslonal racas? 

A Ko. 

e stata laglslativa raoas? 

A Klght. 

S And again you wara working In spaolilo campaigns 
doing day-to-day campaign cheras . 

fi Yas. 

a At what point did you laava KCPAC? 

A In 1982. 

e Did you eontlnua to work In ethax caapalgns on 
bahalf of KCPAC aftar 1977? 



UNCLASSIRED 



15 



UNCLASSiriEB 



NAME • 
323 
32U 
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333 
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HIR2'4U000 



PAGE 



14 



A Yas. I uorkad with th«m. 

2 What othar campaigns did you work in? 

A In 1973 I uotkad in a campaign in Illinois and the 
Stata oi Taxas and Hassachusatts . 

2 And you continuad to work in othar campaigns up 
until 1982? 

A No, in 1979, January oi 1979, I bacana tha National 
Financa Chairman ior NCPAC and hald that position until tha 
end oi 19^2. 

e How did you happan to obtain that position? 

A Tarry suggastad that I taka that job. 

2 Do you know what pronptad him to maka that 
suggestion? 

A Yas. 

2 What was that? 

A I was abla to raisa a lot oi monay ior him. 

2 What was tha iirst instance where you worked in 
fund-raising ior Mr. Dolan and NCPiC? 

A It would have been January 1979. 

2 Can you describe the inoldent? 

A The incident? He had a btleilng where several 
congressman and senators spoke that KCPAC had helped and at 
the end of the brieiing, the people were here all day, and 
at the end oi the brieiing I got up and made an address as 
to what KCPAC's plans were going to be In 1979, and what the 




16 



Ntnt 

3U8 
3M9 
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371 
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HIR2UUO00 



Miissra 



PAGE 



15 



budget was going to ba ; how nuch it was going to take, why 
this was important and why thas* programs war* critical, and 
askad avarybody thara if thay would iinancially halp maka, 
realiza thasa programs. 

2 Uhat was tha rasponsa? 

A Paopla did glva monay. 

e Do you know ii Nr . Dolan was imprassad with tha 
rasponsa? 

A Oh. yas, ha was. 

2 Did ha discuss that with you? 

A Yas. 

e What did ha say? 

A Hall, ha said that — ha said.'*! don't know hoM you 
do this. Ha hava triad thasa avants . This is tha fifth 
tima wa hava triad thasa avants. and you hava a talant 
that--how do you do this?'* 

And Z said. ''Z don't know.*' Ha just saw ma gat 
up and that's what Z did. Ha said. ''Z'va navar saan it 
lika this bafora. that you wara abla to hava paopla writa 
big chaeki which wa hava navar had bafora, and you hava a 
talant. and would — you taka any job you want at KCPAC. any 
placa you want to ba. any offica you want, any sacratary youk 
want, just would you do this again, mora fra^uantly, 
hopafully?" • 

And ha said this Is — you know, ha in^uirad a lot. 



i!GLASS!F!ED 



17 



IJNCLAI^SIHLU 



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HIR2M14000 



PAGE 16 

Hav« I «v«t don« it bafota, sold girl scout cookias. 
whatever, and I said, no, and ha said, ''Thar* is just 
soraathing you hava I hava navar saan.*' 

fi So you agraad to davota your afiorts to this task 
of fund-raising? 

A Yas. I uas going to ba tha National Finance 
Chairman and coordinate, try to raise a lot of the capital 
contributions iiyself and then try to coordinate that with 
our political prograns. 

S And you took the title oi national finance chairman 
in January of 1979? 

A That's right. 

fi And that continued until 1982? 

A Throughout 1982. 

fi You left at the end of 1982? 

A Yes. 

fi ll^ad you had any eKparience in fund-raising before 
late 1978? 

A KO. 

fi Mould you describe the fund-raising programs that 
you pursued in this period at KCPAC, froa 1979 to 1982? 

A Well, between 1979 and 1981. the focus of KCPAC's 
activity was a new idea, iapleaentlng a new idea in American 
politics which we have defined as an independent expenditure 
program. We pursued those programs. Independent 



DflCLASSIRED 



18 



XAHE • 
398 
399 

uoo 

40 1 
U02 
U03 
I40<4 
1405 
<406 
1407 
1408 
409 
>410 

I4l 1 
1412 
1413 
U lU 
415 
U16 

1417 
I418 
1419 

M20 

421 
422 



„._ liHCLHSSiHtO „„. „ 

expendituias > in national racas throughout 1979 and into 
1980. U» usad th« indapandant •xpandituz* idaa m tha 
pzasidantial zaca of 1980 also. And it was raaliy a two- 
yaaz progtam. 

The pzogzan was announcad as partially iundad tha 17th oi 
August 1979. Wa had baan funding most of tha spcing and 
summaz, and ua announcad a million dollazs, «2 million 
pzogzan, and than wa puzsuad tha fund-zaisar foz this 
pzogzan and its axacution from August of 1979 thzough 
yicvambaz 4, 1980. 

fi Uhat is an indapandant axpandituza progzam in this 
contaxt? 

A ^ha Supzama Court has statad that tha indlvldu&ls 
and political aotlon committaas may spand unlimited amounts 
of monay, Fadazal monay oz individual monay. during campaign' 
in a particular caca as long as tha paopla or tha parson, 
tha PAC or parson zaislng and spandlng tha monay has no 
contact with a pzoposad banafieiazy, an Infazzad banaficiazy 
of his aetivitlas. Tha kay haza is indapandant. 

You can't talk to — if you ara going to run an 
Indapandant axpandituza pzogzam. you can't talk to a 
oandidata of that campaign you hopa to banaflt. You can't 
■aka atzmtagy with tham. You can't shaza thaiz pal tnimr. . 
You can't do anything with tham tha day you announce you ara 
an indapandant axpanditura. From that day fozwazd, you must 









19 



yiLASSinEii 



MAHE ■■ 
U23 

uau 

U2S 
U26 
427 
M28 
U29 
U30 
"431 
U32 
"433 
M3t 
U3S 
<436 
U37 
1438 
439 

14140 

1414 1 

•4M2 

14143 
14UU 
14145 
UI46 



HIR2U14000 



PAGE 



18 



go your own way with your own canpaign. with your own 
strategy, mplamanting it aion* . 

And this comas out of an arguitant baiotafh* Suprtme 
Court in 1976 or 1977 whara tha Suprama Court dacraad this 
IS allowad In Amarican politics. And I don't l^now tha casa 
that promptad this, but that is whara tha ganasis of tha 
idaa cama . 

2 And your activitias for a two-yaar pariod was to 
raisa funds for tha indapandant aKpandituia program? 

A That's right. That was tha foous of avarything 
that wa did. 

fi How many racas wara involvad that-- 

A Ua triad to fund six indapandant campaigns, so 
thara wara fiva Sanata racas and tha Prasldantial ona would 
hava baan six. 

2 That's a total of fiva ovar tha two-yaar pariod? 

A Yas. 

2 How much monay did you rail* ioi thasa six 
campaigns? 

A Mall. I don't Know how much w« ralsad for tha six 
campaigns, but I xaisad for NC?AC during that two-yaar cycla 
probably about *2 million in Fadaxal funds. It is vary 
difficult to ascartain how muoh ona pazton actually raisas. 
I had paopla from many citlas In tha country having fund- 
raisars for us. Ha would coma In and talk about our program 



\1HWSSS\B 



20 



NAME ■ 
UU8 
1449 
USO 
US 1 
US2 
453 
USU 
KSS 
456 
1457 
US8 
US9 
U60 
"461 
U62 
U63 
146<4 

465 
U66 
1467 
U68 
U69 
U70 
47 1 
472 



HIR244000 



Mmm 



PAGE 19 



and show our television itessagas, and just leave, and then 
this person would take it upon himself to go door-to-dooc 
and pick up checks to help us. 

nany of these people I knew personally. They would 
send the checks in and it was credited to what I had done to 
create these resources. gjut I didn't actually do it myself. 

fi But you were in charcje of all fund-raising for 
MCPAC during this period, were you not? 

A No, I was just in charge of what we call capital 
resources. In English that is high dollar money. 

fi What other fund-raising was underway for MCPAC 
apart from that? 

A There was an eKtenslve direct mail program, and 
that involved more than one direct mail house. There was 
eKtensive nationwide phone bank operations involving more 
than one phone bank, and then there were some state--eKcuse 
me, Terry had hired some individuals in various states to 
raise money also. 

I was the smallest office for fund-raising at 
NCPAC. There were three other types of fund-raising going 
on in NCPftC while I was there. Hlne was the smallest. 

fi In the two-year period you mentioned, what was the 
total amount of money that was raited undat youz 
supervision? 

A I think about two million. 



mmmm 



21 



NAHE -■ 
U73 
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PAGE 



20 



HIR244000 

2 About two million? 

A I think so. It has b««n so long ago now, i havan't 
really thought about it. 

Q Prior to this affort you said that you had not had 
any exparianca in fund-raising. 

A That's right. 

S Did you talk to others in th« iiald to laarn about 
fund-raising, or did you d«v«lop fund-raising tachniquas on 
your own? Hou did you go about it? 

A It was mostly on my own. 

fi Is it your vi«H that you und«ttook mathoda of 
raising funds that had not b««n usad pravlously by political 
action groups? 

A Yas. 

fi What sort of tachnlquas? 

A Tha idaa of--my uhola philosophy of fund-raising was 
alian to political action groups. Tha idaa that a political 
action group could hava a parsonallty, could hava a 
parsoniflad symbol, was brand naw In Aaarican politics, and 
I will navar forgat tha night I spant with Tarry arguing 
that Taxzy oould bacoma as powaziul a pazsonal laadar in 
Aaazlea aa any Sanator or Congtaaaman, but wa would focus, 
wa had to f ocua . on Tazzy Oolan aa a laadaz. 

Wa had to put a lot of light on that, and that ovar 
a pariod of tima. with anough focua on that, ha would indaad 



ItHSSIFlEO 



22 



NAME ■ 
498 
U99 
500 

50 1 
502 
503 
SOU 
505 
506 
507 
508 
509 
510 

51 1 
512 
513 
514 
515 
516 
517 
518 
519 
520 
521 
522 



HIR2U14000 




PAGE 21 



tend to paisoniiy and pacsonaliza this organization, and 
therefora w« would craata a paisonal laadai who could meat 
uith paopla. talk with paopla as a Sanator oc Congrassman 
could and avoka tha Sana typa of long-taim loyalty and 
financial sactifica that tha Congtassnan and Sanatocs do. 

And this was unhaard oi in Amarican politics 
according to hin . Sinca I was >^naw, you know, I wasn't 
sura. ^ut X knaw on Capitol Hill it was old politics by a 
long shot. But sinca PACs wara ralativaly naw, and thay 
waza by natuta y^j^ institutional, that I thought was a 
nistaka. So wa did that. 

I craatad sitall aaatinga. Ua callad than 
briaiings, whaza wa invitad no aora or had no moza than 25 
oz 30 paopla coma to Uashington. Ha spant tha whola day. 
somatinas tha night, baioza and than tha uhola naxt day and 
that night, with thasa paopla. introducing Tazzy to aach o£ 
tham. gatting to know aach oi thaa. listaning to thair 
concazns about Aaaiiea and listaning ior thalz intazast in 
what thay would lika to do ior Aaarlea. 

I was abla to laarn about thasa paopla. laarn thair 
Intarasta. eoncarn nysali with what thay would lika to do. 
And than as our prograas bagan to avolva. I knaw in ay haad 
who wa should consult, who wa should call, who wa could 
count on. But it was all vary parsonal. and bacausa of tha 
pazsonal coaaitaant it took a lot aora aonay. It wasn't a 



a/!SS!flED 



23 



NAHE ■■ 
523 
52U 
S2S 
526 
527 
528 
S29 
530 
531 
532 
533 
5314 
535 
536 
537 
538 
539 
SUO 

sm 

5U2 
5<43 

5UI4 

545 
5U6 
547 



HIR2'4U000 



UHSUSSiflED 



PAQE 



22 



direct nail Xattar. And as you bagan to know thas* paopla, 
thay becana yout official family, and it was not maating 
with thasa paopla onca and gattlng a chack fron than and 
saying thank you and good bya . 

They would probably call tha naxt day. Thay would 
want you to cona and saa than. Thay aight call avary waak. 
They might start calling two oz thraa times a waak. And 
they did. And so a huge official family grew. By tha time I 
left, we had over 155. >l I ii ^ffi t ttiu glvazs to NCPAC. Uhen I 
started, there were 10. And whan wa had raised, I created 
what X called tha Hational Consacvativa Political Action 
Council or Policy Advisory Council, tha same initials as 
NCPAC, where people gave a ainiaum oi tS.OOO. 

$^^^"9 *^ <'^^ yaaz, thay wata askad to give to 
Terry's foundation for those aotivitlaa . And than that 
became so successful and so big ua created tha governing 
committee, tha steering coaaittaa for tha council. Ue had 
25 people in that council who gave «S.OOO, pzoaised to raise 
«10,000, and give or raise «25,000 aora for Terry's 
foundation. 

'(hat group started out with seven or eight and very 
quickly that became 25. And that is where wa ware whan I 
left. And I had talked to Tazzy in lata 1982 about getting 
an eKacutiva coaaittaa of tha asianoa of tha 25 and asking 
thea to ba responsible for SO or 100,000. Baoausa wa weza. 




24 



sua 

549 
550 
55 1 
552 
553 
55U 
555 
556 
557 
558 
559 
560 
561 
562 
563 
56U 
565 
566 
567 
568 
569 
570 
571 
572 



HiRauuooo 



liHCUSSiRtD „ 



GE 



23 



these people' ue ueie getting so nuch support ua were 
discovering there was so much money ready ior conservative 
organizations in the United ^tates that ue needed ways to 
spend that money. 

That is not to say that Terry didn't have a debt. 
I uasn't indebting Terry, others were indebting Terry, but I 
had unlocked several Tacts that had heretoiore not been 
appreciated in American politics. Conservatives were 
willing to give very heavily on anything that would further 
the conservative cause, education, politics, lobbying, all 
kinds of things. 

Terry created a lobbying organization while I was 
there. He raised--! didn't do tha iund-raising for that at 
all. but ha raised a lot oi money for that. Ha created a 
foundation while I was thara. Ha started using the 
education fund of KCPkC axtansivaly while I was there. His 
major problem was he didn't trust anyone else to do this but 
himself . 

Z sat out hara with all tha possibilities, but the 
trouble is it is like 25 cars getting gasoline from one 
tank. It is ona at a time. 

& You mentioned that tha contributors ware brought to 
Washington for briefings. Hara thasa bziafings on 
particulaz subjects or uaza thay ganazal briefings? What 
was the nature of tha briefings? 



UNCLISSSIFIED 



25 



NAflE : 

573 
5714 
575 
576 
577 
578 
579 
580 
S81 
582 
583 
58U 
585 
586 
587 
588 
589 
590 
591 
592 
593 
594 



UllS; 






HIR2UU000 l^mfj^m* •-■c'^ •' PJGE 2U 

A Th«y u«te political. Tarty was vary intarastad xn 
canpaigns. Ha was vary big on campaigns. Ha had vary 
littla intarast in foraign policy, which is ona of tha raa:or 
reasons why I laft. Ha was vary intatastad in craatmg 
consarvativa political powar in Washington and all thesa 
stata capitals. So almost avarything ha daalt with'-campaign 
tachniquas. innovations in alactions. innovations in 
polling, innovations in studying tha eansus for craws to naw 
alactorial pattarns such as an 80 indax as whara you hava 
all of this influx of paopla and it turns out Dallas, Horth 
Dallas, has this huga axplosion of Rapubllcans. 

Ha was fascinatad by that. Ha usad to taka hoaa 
with hin avary night 10 to IS pounds of polling, and It 
was--ha spant hundrads and hundrads of thousands avary yaar 
on polling to study. 

fi Would campaign tachniquas ba tha subjacts of tha 
briafings for tha contributors? 

A Yas. And what would happan would ba you would 
hava. for Instanca. Robart Janson would oona in and say how 
Tarry had halpad him and how wa waxa vary gratifiad that 
paopla lika him would coma in and say this tachniqua Terry 
usad was axcaadingly succassful. 




i&i 



26 



KAHE : 
595 
596 
597 
598 
599 
600 
60 1 
602 
603 
60U 
605 
606 
607 
608 
609 
610 
6 1 1 
612 
613 
6 1U 
615 
6 16 
617 
6 18 
619 



HIR2I4U000 ISBI/ki m^^ ''*<5E 25 

DCnN PARKER 

2 How did you gat lists oi p«opla to mvit* to thasa 
bnaiings oc hou did you d«vaJ.op(^ an invitation list? 

A All tha nanas, of couisa. wata at KCPAC. and wa had 
filas and filas and filas of nana*. I would daeida, for 
instance, if ua uaza going to hava a canpaign in that stata 
wa would try to gat a lot of paopla from that stata to coma 
to Washington. If wa had soma donots in that stata, of 
couzse wa would tzy to gat than. If wa had pzospacts in 
that stata who had givan small contributions but could giva 
big contributions, wa would try to gat tham to coma to 
Washington, and wa had an awful lot of rafarrals, paopla 
wanting to coma, calling Tarry--Hhat aza you doing, and wa 
would say tha naxt briafing wa hava, why don't you coma. 

2 You mantion that you davalopad a group of. I 
baliava, ISO donors-- 

A Ultimataly. 

fi --who contributad mora than •5.000? 

A I think it is mora now. by tha way. 

Q But that pariod of tlma. 

A Yas. 

fi Is that tha group that you consldarad your official 
family that you would kaap in touch with — 



Try . 



UNCUSSI 



27 



NAME: 
620 
621 
622 
623 
62U 
62S 
626 
627 
628 
629 
630 
631 
632 
633 
63U 
635 
636 
637 
638 
639 
6<40 

em 

6U2 
6U3 

6<4>4 



HIR2UU000 pjQE 26 

fi And would you go back to th«m scaking additional 
contributions on a pariodic basis? 

A U«ll, you uould go back to than and ask--onc« thay 
had givan thait SS.OOO. you uould ask than if thay uould 
help you, sinca thay uata so conmittad and so davotad, could 
thay halp you gat othat contributions irom thair f Hands, 
their uivas and thay vary of tan did. Most of tha tma thay 
did. It uas a lot of paopla who avantually raalizad a 
family of 150 paopla is also too much. So ua hirad other 
people for--I hired Brant Bozall, for instance, and taught 
him uhat I knew to tha bast of my knowladga about fund- 
raising . 

2 You mentioned that Hr . Oolan had several different 
organizations . You mentioned there was a lobbying 
organization and also a foundation. Hhat did you 
understand to be the reason for the different organizations 
that he had? 

A It was quite clear the need to engage m different 
types of political activities, and he had a lobbying 
organization in order that they could advance the cause of 
the peace legislation. He had PACs in order that he could 
participate in direct political action, partisan political 
action. 

S Did the tax laws have any bearing on the reason for 
these different organizations to your understanding? 



UNCLASSIREI 



28 



V 




-^ 



NAME; 
6<45 
6U6 
6U7 
6U8 
6M9 
650 
651 
652 
653 
65U 
655 
656 
657 
658 
659 
660 
661 
662 
663 
66<« 
663 
666 
667 
668 
669 




Lno^it 



& Each organization has diffatant tax laws. 

2 Old you understand that any contributions to any of 
riE . Dolan's organizations wara tax daductibla? 

A Oh. yas. his foundation activitias wara daductibla. 
Then. 

8 What sorts of activitias did tha foundation pursue? 

A It had training schools. It did, I think, soma 
films, and I think it printad--! wasn't involved in some of 
this so I am not going to remember very much, but I think it 
did a lot of printing information. 

2 Did it engage in any public education campaigns? 

A I don't remember that it did at that time. It has 
since, but not while I was there. 

2 Was Barbara Newington one of the KCPAC donors that 
you dealt with? 

A Ko. 

S Has Ellen Garwood? 

A They were donors, but I dldM^ deal with 

8 Old you consider thea part of your faaily at that 



time? 



luA. 



X nr> . Kewlngton. no. 

fi Nxs. Garwood. 

A Yet. 

8 Hay King. 



No. 



IINCUSSIFIED 



29 



NAHE : 
670 
671 
672 
673 
67(4 
67S 
676 
677 
678 
679 
680 
681 
682 
683 
684 
685 
686 
687 
688 
689 
690 
691 
692 
693 
69U 



HIR214 14000 
2 



GE 28 



at? 
* Yas . Again, all of thasa paopi* may hava givan tc 



I^. Hunt? 



KC 



PAC. but I was not daaling uith.tham. 



e Frad Sachai . 

A No. 

fi Hi. and Mrs. Uaim? 

A Mo. 

ns. nORRISON-- can I just intazjact haca for a 
second? Sinea wa aza starting to gat Into sona of tha nanas 
ua zacogniza as baxng zalavant to tha Issuas I Know you aza 
going to focus on, I hava got to point out ona thing that 
hopafully will guida your quastioning in tazns of tha 
formulation of caztain quastions to Hz. Channal/ 

Ua aza obviously hara. as ua uaza foz ouz last 
intazviau with you, pzior to immunity grants from tha 
committaas. As you Knou. houavar, wa also hava baan 
cooparating with Mr. Ualsh's offica in connaotion with Mr. 
ChannalVs plaa. Pursuant to that cooparation, Hr . Channal\ 
was askad spacifically not to obsazva, diraetly or 
mdiractly in any way. tha testimony of anybody who has 
appaarad hara pursuant to immunity and whosa tastimony was 
givan publioly. 

I mantlon that only bacausa. having compliad with 
that diractlva. Mr. Channall would not want you to, by your 
quastioning, to giva him information about what soma of 



UNCLASSIFIED 



30 



NAME; 
695 
696 
697 
698 
699 
700 
701 
702 
703 
70K 
705 
706 
707 
708 
709 
7 10 
7 1 1 
712 
713 
7 lU 
715 
7 16 
7 17 
718 
719 



HIR2U14000 



UNCLilSSlFlEO 



PAGE 29 



those peopla like nts. Garwood, Liautanant Colonel North or 
others, infornation he scrupulously avoided learning about, 
I wouldn't want you to, through your questions, deliver to 
him mfoination he otherwise wouldn't want to have. 

li you could keep that in mind, I would appreciate 
it. 

BY MR. FRYHAH: 

2 Let me ask you on* other name about the 
contributors to HCPAC. Was John Ramsey one of the 
individuals you dealt with? 

A Yes. 

2 How were you compensated at NCPAC. Mr. Channell? 

A I was given a base salary for, I think, a year or 
two, and then I was given a bonus arrived at through an 
incredibly complicated formula which I have never figured 
out . 

2 Has the bonus related In any way to the amount of 
money that you raised? 

A Yes. It was ovez--Z know that it was a certain 
amount, and I would get a bonus above that amount. The 
bonus would begin a»d I had hit a certain level. 

2 In the years 1979 and 1980 and 1981 and 1982, did 
your income from MCPAC in any of those years ever exceed 
«100 ,000? 



mmm 



31 



HAHE 

720 

721 

722 

723 

721* 

725 

726 

727 

728 

729 

730 

731 

732 

733 

73it 

735 

736 

737 

738 

739 

740 

74 1 

7142 

743 

714U 



HiR2uyooo 



UNCUSSiFlE! 



PAGE 



30 



2 When did your uork in raising funds for HCPAC of 
tha sort that you hava bean describing con* to an and? 

A Pretty much at the end of 1982. I went out on my 
oun to start my little consulting fim betueen the and of 
1982 and 1983 and I gradually phased out working as a 
consultant. I gave up my position and gave up--I gave up my 
position, full-time position, and became a consultant. 

2 You continued in this same work at NCPAC until the 
end of 1982. 

A I think so, yes. 

e What was the reason that you decided to leave 
NCPAC? 

A I found that the work waa aKtxeaely time-consuming. 
It was now getting to be very repetitive. I felt that 
Terry was ignoring a lot of the foreign policy issues that 
were coming out, and I had had many discussions with him on 
foreign policy and national security issues, and he didn't 
seem at all interested, and Z just decided that I was burned 
out and I had done as much as Z could do. and as this type 
of work, when you uork in aleotlve politics all the time, is 
very repetitive and I asked him what he planned to do in 
198U. He said nothing new. 

Z began to think, well. Z Just don't think Z want 
to stay around anymore. 

fi So you effectively leit at the end of 1982. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



32 



Hi.ni ■ 

7U5 
746 
747 
7148 
749 
750 
751 
752 
753 
754 
755 
756 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 
762 
763 
76U 
765 
766 
767 
768 
769 



KliSSffl 



HIR2UU000 K8;-:aSff. If«a?,?ijaa Ifc**' page 31 

A Yes. I think I was on a consultant basis to him 
for a uhila afterwards. 



company 
A 
2 
A 
S 
A 



You mentioned you started your own consulting 



Yes 



What was that company? 

It was called the Channel^ Corporation. 

Uhere was that based? 

On Connecticut Avenue here. 

2 What were the objectives oi the Channel) 
Corporation? 

A We advised people on iund-ralalng . how to do it. 
Sometimes we would try to help. He would be contracted to 
maybe write a iund-raising perspective, try to have an event 
or something like that. 

2 Would you be retained by candidates ior public 
office? 

A I could be. yes. 

2 What would be another exaaple of a type of client? 

A Thet would have either been somebody In office or 
running for office or doing a fund-reiser, like an event, 
just foouslng on the event rather than a long-term 
candidate. 

fi So you could be retained by an OEganl2ation as 
opposed to a candidate? 




JS 



33 



Iftif^ 



KAHE 

770 
77 1 
772 
773 
77U 
775 
776 
111 

lis 

779 
780 
781 
782 
783 
7814 
785 
786 
787 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
79U 




HIR2UU000 IIIVl.B ^llllil ILU ''^^'^ 32 

A That's right. 

Q And how wars you compansatad fot thasa saivicas? 
Uas that on a nagotiated iea basis? 

A Yas . 

Q That was tha ganaral-- 

A Yas. 

2 Ueza you avai nagotiatad on tha basis of a 
paccentaga of tha amount of funds caisad through soma-- 

A I don't think so. I think it was :ust work hours. 
Ua :ust billad for work hours. 

2 Now, you affactivaly staztad this oparation in 
early 1983; is that corract? 

A Yas. 

S Aitar on* yaaz of its oparation, wara you satisfied 
with tha rasults? 

A No. I dacidad that this was just--I didn't think 
this was going to work out. 

2 What was tha raason for youz dissatisfaction? 

A Thar* was a raal lack of apptaciation anong ny 
cliants ioz ay styla of fund-raising and ratantion of paopla 
and cultivating paopla. X think tha cliants wara rathar 
intarastad in gatting sona itonay and moving on to sonathing 
alsa, and that wa wara far too small — it was a littla busy — X 
only had two anployaas--to do that. 

2 Who wara youz amployaas . by th« way? 



UNCLASSiFIED 



84 






-> 



M&HE 
795 
796 
79'' 
793 
799 
800 

80 1 
802 
803 
SOU 
805 
806 
807 
808 
809 
810 

81 1 
812 
813 
81 u 
81S 
816 
817 
818 
819 




HIR24U000 Ul^Ui-rtUvi* •■-■-■ PAGE 33 

A A lady whose nama was Edna Haaly, and then thace 
uas another secxetaiy, I can't cemanbec hai name. She 
wasn't there a whole year. 

2 Uhat ware their responsibilities? 

A Just to answer the phone, basically. 

2 So basically during 1983 tha Channel^ Corporation 
was a one-man business with soma support staii? 

A Yes. 

2 At the end of that year you ware not satisfied with 
tha results of the year, and ny next question is. what did 
you decide to do? 

A Uell. in early 198K, I organized tha American 
Conservative Trust, which uas a Fadaral political action 
committee, and. after that, tha national Endowment for tha 
Preservation of Liberty, which is'our foundation. The 
Federal PAC cama first and tha foundation coma later. 

2 Uhat was tha reason foe organizing those two 
entities? 

A I decided that I ialt that ua should ba supporting 
conservative candidates for office who waza challengers, • 
that incumbents were by far getting so much money. The 
challengers were having a vary difficult time of getting any 
money, and wa were going to try to do that and that we might 
try to do soma independent eNpandituras on issues that KCPAC 
was not interested in that I fait, iozalgn policy issues. 



' '^d^^cmii^jj 



35 



Kxni HiRauuooo 



«ussint8 ,.„ 



34 



320 

82 1 
822 
323 
824 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 

83 1 
832 
833 
834 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
SUO 
8U 1 
842 
843 
8>4<4 



that uety possibly w« should b« concentrating on, as well as 
domestic issues. .,jh 



(/ 



vV 



There were »•»«- people out there working on 
domestic issues that the,^ouse was already full. There were 
not many people working on foreign policy issues at all. and 
so I felt that we might appeal to the American people in a 
different way than was already out there. And then with the 
foundation, of course, my goal with the foundation was to 
educate the American people mostly on foreign policy issues. 

Again, I didn't think there was much activity on 
that. But there was a need for it. 

2 So from the beginning, the objective of the 
foundation was public education efforts? 
A On foreign policy. 
2 On foreign policy? 
A Right. 

ft And the foundation was the Kational Endowment for 
the Preservation of Liberty? 
A Right. 

ft How, was this organized as what is known as a 
50 1C3? 

A The foundation. 

ft Hh»t did you undecatand was the purpose of 
organizing it in that fashion? 

A I mean that's the IRS designation for foundations. 



UNCUSSIFIID 



HIRZUUOOO 



BElteSW 



PACE 35 



MAHE 

845 2 That would permit donors to taka a tax deduction 

846 for contributions to tha foundation' 
SW A Sura . 

sua 2 Whereas, would contributions to the American 

849 conservative trust also be tax deductible? 

850 A No. It is a federal PAC. 

851 2 That's a PAC. So the two organizations in your 

852 plan would pursue different types of activities. Is that 

853 correct? 

85U A They did. And that is the law. 

855 S Who advised you on the legal aspects of this? 

856 A One of my current attorneys. Kurt Merge. 

857 a K-E-R-G-E. 

858 A Yes. He has bean out attorney in these matters 

859 since the very beginning, his firm. 

860 2 Oid you consult uith Ht . Dolan. Mr. Terry Dolan. 
86 1 about establishing tha national endouaent. which I will 

862 refer to as its initials. HCPL, or tha American Conservative 

863 Trust? 

86<4 A Did I consult with him? 

865 fi Yea. 

866 A I have talked to him about it. 

867 S Did you consult with him bafoza you organized them 
363 about youz plans for these two entities? ' 

869 A I am not sure about ACT. but ue discussed NEPL 



Kussse 



37 



"::::::::::.ifiSSiflF.B 



87i| 2 Did you discuss uith Mr. Dolan any way that HEPL 
872 might coordinata its activities with the activities oi 



873 
8714 
875 
876 
877 



NCPAC 

A No, The only thing I zaraenbai hin saying quite 
clearly to me was this is going to fail. Nobody is 
interested in foreign policy issues. So I said, ''You are 
uastmg your time.'' 




^I'.yjti 



38 



i 



KAHE 
378 
879 
880 

88 1 
882 
883 
88U 
885 
886 
887 
888 
889 
890 

89 1 
892 
893 
8914 
895 
896 
897 
898 
899 
900 

90 1 
902 



HIR2UU000 
RPTS nCGINN 
3CHH SPRADLING 
[ 12 00 noon 1 



UNWSS'lFiEB 



2 When you established KEPL with an objective of 
public education campaigns on foreign policy issues, did you 
have any particular issues in nmd? 

A Uell, then, of course, everything the Russians uere 
doing uas the focus. Soviet eKpansion. that unbrella, was 
really the focus, what to do about Soviet expansionism. 

2 After you founded ACT and KEPL in 198U, what did 
you do with these organizations in 198U? 

A Uell, we 3ust barely got then going. Ue raised a 
little money m the 'SU election for ny PAC. I don't think 
It was even a hundred thousand dollars. And I ' n not even 
sure we raised that nuch for our foundation. We decided 
that we would do a study of American history textbooks to 
see how they treated foreign policy issues since World War 
II. We uere very interested in the Conservative Opportunity 
Society and Mewt Gingrich's ideas. He. as I said, 
participated a little bit in the national election m 198U. 
We didn't even get out a nailing, for instance, I don't 
think even April or Hay of '8U which is very, very late. Ho 
one had heard of it. 

So ue 3ust sort of crawled along. Ue didn't really 




i Bi-i 



39 



HAHE HIR2UUO0O 
903 
90U 
905 



wtmm 



PAGE 38 



get started m the foundation until lata 1984 and th« PAC 

activities were small. 

But I felt in running ray oun organization and 

9061 focusing on the issues that I thought wa should ba focusing 

907 on. I uas much more coraiortabla uith what was going on and I 

903 did find that people-- thara was an interest out there. They 

909 might not be going to give ma any money innediately . but 

910 there uas definitely an interest out thata which I had 

911 heretofore not known. I ha d fait li t b w > I h ad n o t k no yn 

9 12 £*^ 

913 2 Did the foundation or NEPL sponsor any television 

914 advertisements m 1984? 

915 A I don't think we did. 

916 2 What was tha first TV advartisaaant that NEPL or 

917 ACT either sponsored? 

9 18 A I think tha first ones probably ware in '85. I 

9 19 think--I could be wrong but other than doing just maybe one 

920 add for something, a small campaign was mounted in I think 

92 1 March, April and Hay of 1985 to support tha President on the 

922 freedom fijhtar aid bill. 

923 2 Wa will coma to that in a minute, but it's your 
92<4 recollection that that was tha first television 

925 advaitisamant? 

926 A Yes, sir. 

927 2 Did ACT or MEPL sponsor any nawspapar 



UNWSS!F!EB 



40 



NAHE 
928 
929 
930 
93 1 
932 
933 
934 
93S 
936 
937 
938 
939 
940 
9<4 1 
9U2 
943 
91414 
945 
946 
947 
948 
949 
9S0 
95 1 
952 



n 



looin 



PAGE 39 



HIR24U000 
advertisements in 1984? 

A We sponsored some get out to vote massages ior 
people and then near the inauguration ua sponsored some ads 
on Organization President Reagan. 

2 Uhat uas the nature of those ads? 

A People wrote in little massages of congratulations 
and ue printed them. 

2 In uhat papers did you pcint than? 

A In the Washington Post. 

2 And uas that in January of 1985? 

A Yes. the 20th or 19th. vary clota to inauguration 
day. Wasn't tha 20th on Sunday or something lika that, the 
last ona? You don't ranambar? 

HR. OLIVER: I think tha 21it was tha holiday 
THE WITNESS; It uas sort of screwy. Anyway, real 
close to the inauguration wa had thasa ads. 
BY MR. FRYHAM 

S Has that ona of tha major axpandituzes for tha 
foundation, tha ads? 

A Thay weren't foundation ads. 

Q Thay were ACT ads? 

A Oh, yes. political ad*. 

e Was that ona of its major aKpandituzas of the funds 
that had baan raised in 1984? 

A During that whola yaar-*nd-*-half that was probably 



UNMSSIfe 



41 



953 
95U 
955 
956 
957 
958 
959 
960 

96 1 
962 
963 
96U 
965 
966 
967 
968 
959 
970 

97 1 
972 
973 
974 
975 
976 
977 



imi\ssinED . 



h:r2uuooo fi]ii«ai:i m" j-l^sb ^a.a' p»ge uo 

the largest smgla ona. definitaly. 

2 So am I correct then that NEPL in 198U did not 
engage in any public education campaign on a foreign policy 



A Not by radio or television. We sent out panphlets. 
Q You were more or less getting organized in 198u 
A Qh, yes . 

2 And at the beginning of the Reagan Administration 
ACT ran a series of newspaper ads or uas-- 
A On inauguration day. 
On inauguration day. 
That's right. 

And ACT had made some contributions to-- 
Various candidate*. 

--various candidates in the 198U elections. 
Right. In fact, we had so little money--thank you 
for bringing this up. My goal of getting to put together an 
independent eKpendituze campaign was never realized because 
I never had enough money to do it. 

I just started too late. That's all. 
S Has there any particular response that you remember 
to the series of ads that you tan at the time of the 
inauguzation? 

A Any particular response? Do you have anyone in 



mind ? 



wussro 



42 



MAKE : 
978 
979 
980 
981 
982 
983 
98M 
985 
986 
987 
988 
989 
990 
991 
992 
993 
9914 
995 
996 
997 
998 
999 
1000 
100 1 
1002 



HIR2MU000 



UNCLASSiFIED"" 



H«ll-- 



A I was zaal happy with th*ii. 

2 Is it youz understanding that tha inauguzatlon ads 
was tha raason ior you baing contactad about participating 
in the Nicaiaguan Rafugaa Fund dinnaz? 

A Yes. I think that was tha trigger. The uoman uho 
invited ne to be a participant in that dinner had seen the 
ads . 

fi Uho was that person? 

A A Mrs. Cdie Fieaier ■ 

2 When did she contact you? 

A I think it was in January, very close aitez the ads 
appeared . 

fl What did she say to you when she contacted you? 

A That would I like to pazticlpete in an activity ior 
the President to raise money ior Kicaraguan refugees and be 
on the dinner coaaittee and help sell tables and so and so 
and I said yes. that would be dellghtiul. 

fi Had you been aware oi tha organization oi this 
dinner prior to her call to you? 

A Ko. 

e Had Central America and Mlcazagua been a foreign 
policy issue that had been oi paztioulaz Interest to you 
prior to the call from Hra. I'raslez? 

A No. 



yNCUSSffl 



43 




c*r 



PkGE <42 



NXnZ: HIR2UU0OO 

1003 2 What was th« n»tur« of your involv«««nt ait«r th« 

100U call fioB hai? 

1005 k Kinaty patcant oi It was going to tha aaatings at 

1006 haz oiiica and as any dinnat cosMittaa doas. you talk about 

1007 who you know and who thay should sand invitations to and 

1008 what typa oi parson should ba invitad to glva highaz monay 

1009 to coma to tha zacaption or tha spaoial bziaiing that thay 
10 10 waia going to hava and how many groups do you know who could 
10 11 also coma in to halp sail tablas, and that was avary waak. 
10 12 2 Uhan was tha dinnar hald? 

1013 A Tha ISth oi April. 1985, having baan postponad 

10 lU onca . 

10 IS fi ind batwaan lata January. 1985 and tha data oi tha 

1016 dinnar. you participatad in a nuabaz of maatings with Mrs. 

1017 Fraziar and othars? 

10 18 i Twanty-fiva or thirty othazs . 

10 19 S Twanty-fiva or thirty. Now you hava dascribad 

1020 coming up I guass with proposad invitaaa to tha dinnar? 

1021 A Ha all did. 

1022 9 What alsa did you do basidat that? 

1023 k Hall, wa got invitations aant to thasa paopla. I 
102U wantad ouz foundation to glva a gift itsalf mainly bacausa 

1025 M* had savazal donors who said thay wantad to ba anonymous 

1026 and thay thought it would ba nioa if my foundation gava a 

1027 gift and thay would ramain anonymous. Thay didn't want to 



UNCIASS1HF.D 



44 



•i^ 



Hint 

1028 
1029 
1030 
1031 
1032 
1033 
103*4 
1035 
1036 
1037 
1038 
1039 
10<40 

lom 

10(«2 
10U3 
10UI4 
1045 
10146 
10H7 
10t48 
1049 
1050 
1051 
1052 



HIR2I4U000 







PAGE (43 



b« on any dinner committ**. Th«y didn't want to b* c*ll«d 
again. I think probably tha iaat was, you know, I will giv« 
nonay. Hy nana will 9«t out. »t 2 a.B. naxt Monday morning 
sonabody about this issua is going to call aa iroa a phona 
bank somaplaca in Sacramanto and away ua go. 

This is ona of tha aajor xaasona why paopla giva 
through othar paopla and also giva anonymously now-a-days . 
It didn't usa to ba that way, but it's noM. And so wa want 
to work to raisa monay in our foundation for soaa grants to 
tha Nica.:aguan rafugaas as wall as — or tha dinnar, as wall as 
sailing tha tablas ior tha dinnar. 

S Was tha work ior this dinnar what davalopad your 
intarast in the sublaot oi Nicaragua and Cantral Aaazloa 
originally? 

A Hall, oi coursa avarybody knows something about 
Nicaragua. Xhay know tha aKparianoa wa hava had with it 
recently. I was aware that it was down there and I was 
aware that the Soviets were doing a lot down there. I was 
aware that the Carter polley oi trying to work with these 
revolutionaries and maintain — you amy have heard this 
statement beiore — find the moderates in the regime and work 
with them ior the iuture had probably iailad, and that I was 
also aware that seme oi tha tezcozism was ooming out oi 
Nicaragua. 

But I really hadn't ie«used en the essential 



«m«B 



45 



NAME : 

10S3 
lOSU 

loss 

10S6 
10S7 
1058 
10S9 
1060 
1061 
1062 
1063 
106>4 
106S 
1066 
1067 
1068 
1069 
1070 
1071 
1072 
1073 
107U 
1075 
1076 
1077 



HIR2t4'4000 



yNCliiSSirlEO 



PAGE 



charactaiistics oi Nicazagua as a buzgaonlng coamunlst 
Stat*. This axpazianca, talking to paopla who uaza izon 
thaza coming up to saa us, pzapazing ioz tha dinnaz. zaading 
tha litazatuza that was sant ovaz so ua could talk to paopla 
about It zaally opanad my ayas considazably , considazably . 

2 Did you pazticipata in soma bziaiings at tha Uhita 
Housa in pzapazation foz this dinnaz? 

A Hall, thaza was an initial bzlaiing at tha Uhita 
Housa bafoza I was invitad to pazticipata in this dinnaz 
that I was askad to go to. But thaza waza no bzlaiings at 
tha Uhita Housa aitazwazds baioza tha dinnaz that I 
attandad . 

fi So tha initial bzlaiing was in Januazy? 

A Kas. 

9 Uhan you spoka to vazlous oonsazvatlva contzibutozs 
about this issua of Klcazagua and Cantzal Amazica, did you 
find a stzong zasponsa aaong that group? 

A Hall. I was suzprlsad. I iound that almost 
avazybody I talkad to had baan giving to othaz paopla in 
zagazd to Klcazagua ioz sob* tiaa. that this issua was on 
thalz minds much moza intanaaly than it had baan on mina, 
that many oi thasa paopla wara vary wall Iniozmad and Z was 
a llttla bit ambazzassad. izankly. Illan Cazwood is a 
walking ancyolopadia oi what has happanad in Klcazagua tha 
last hundrad yaazs in datall . 



UNClASSIFIfO 



46 



HAHE ■ 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
108>4 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
109U 
109S 
1096 
1097 
1098 
1099 
1 100 
1 101 
1 102 



HIR214UOOO 



» i^t R jf^^lf"! 



0, And sh«'s somaon* you contactad in aaily 1985 aftac 
tdi> Jtaai** callsd you? 



& Yas. I think sh« may hav* glvan sona nonay. Sha 
didn't pazticipata ot anything. But sha listad ioE ma iiva 
oz ten ocganizations sha was giving monay to for Nieazagua, 
and had baan for yaats, and paopla that sha knau that uaza 
involvad in that. I iiankly was a littla bit ambaztassad 
and I also zaalizad that I was going to hava to laazn a lot, 
that this was an issua whara intazastingly anough. 
consazvativas waza vazy wail iniozaad and my hunoh was 
zight. They waza vazy intazastad in iozaign polioy and Z 
was coming at this now zaal unpzapazad. 

fi Whan had you oziginally mat Hzs . Gazwood? 

A I mat haz in 1979 oz '80 at a 4ICCS*C- maating . 



And sha/ had baan ona oi tha contzibutozs you had 



.... 

iaalt with at )a«£^? 



A Yas . Sha had baan giving to tha* izom tha 

beginning oi that organisation, whloh I think was in '74. 

'75. Sha was wall known to Tazzy Sola. and avan whan I 

7 
bagan--! aaan I haazd har naaa iouz ot ilva yaars baioza I 

avaz spoka to haz. 

ft And sha is ona of tha paxsons you had kapt in 
zagulax oontaot ulthT 

A Yas. Sha was vary intazastad In iozalgn policy and 
that had plquad my intazast aitaz Z had ilzat mat haz whan 



UNCLASSIFIED 



47 



MAHE 
1 103 
1 10U 
1 105 
1 106 
1 107 
1 108 
1 109 
1110 
1111 
1112 
1113 
1 1 114 
1 1 15 
1116 
1 1 17 
1 1 18 
1119 
1 120 
1121 
1 122 
1 123 
1 12U 
1 125 
1 126 
1 127 



wjmm •■■ 



HIR2UU000 liiAfl.' ■• Fi ^i •.ij-arm page ue 

ua talkad. All sha talkad about was national daiansa and 
foraign policy. Sha wasn' t--saaitad oblivious to tha domastic 
concazns. which most consatvativas axa qulta Intarastad in. 

fi Did you davalop uhat you considatad a parsonal 
friendship with Hes . Garwood? 

A Yas. vary much so. 

2 By aarly 1985 that had davalopad? 

k Yas. I would say sha would hava callad ma har 
iriand by 1985. 

2 Uhan sha would ba in Washington as a mattax oi 
coursa would you noritally saa hat? 

X No. 

2 On occasion would you saa har? 

X Onca in a whila. But wa waran't that iriandly at 
that point. In fact, I didn't saa har in Washington, I 
don't think, until lata Juna or aarly July of 1985 ior tha 
first tiaa in 1985. tha yaar was half ovar. 

2 Was thara a tima whan you dtova har around to look 
at tha charry blossoas? 

A Hall, I don't KnoM whathar I drova har or mayba I 
did. I aa raal proud of thaa. I think of savan or aight 
paopla if thay wara hara I would shoM thaa tha charry 
bloatoBS. 

9 But Z Baan do you raoall that Hrs. Garwood had 
navar saan tha charry blotsoBi bafora and you showad thaa to 



wussife 



48 



HAME • 
1 1281 
1 129 
1 130 
113 1 
1 132 
1 133 
1 131* 
1 135 
1 136 
1 137 
1 138 
1 139 
1 mo 
1 1U1 
1 m2 
1 1143 
1 lUU 
1 1145 
1 1(46 
1 147 
1 1148 
1 1149 
1 150 
1 1S1 
1 152 



"-""-nK!P[^C;SiFlE 



PAGE (47 

\mvA hsxinru 

her? 

A Oddly anough, I don't iaii«mb*r that. I can think 
of thi«« othar paopla that I do vary claazly raaambaz. I 
don't raaanbaz that uith hat but that's vary possible 
because I would have wanted to do soaethlng like that ioz 
anybody, as I say. 

2 Wall, going back to e&tly 1985. you contacted Mrs. 
Sazwood aiter you had been In touch with Edie Fzazlez 
concerning the refugee dinner? 

A Yes. 

fi You learned irom her she was very Interested in the 
subject of Nicaragua and Central America. 

A Yes. 

fi Here there other persona that you contacted where 
you found a siailar interest? 

A Oh. yes. When I talked to Bunker Hunt I found that 
he was well informed, extremely well informed. and--lat's see 
who else of that group. Z talked to the Hills down in 
Texas. I found they were very well informed. 

fi What is the Hills? 

A It's a family down there. 

fi What's the first name? 

A Al. Albert I guess. They were very well informed. 
When I talked to Hrs. Keulngton — I aotually didn't talk to 
her. Cliff Smith talked to her. le oame beck to me with a 




49 



HAHE : 
1 153 
1 ISK 
1 155 
1 156 
I 157 
1 158 
1 159 
I 160 
116 1 
1 162 
1163 
1 1614 
1 165 
1 166 
1 167 
1 168 
1 169 
1 170 
1171 
1 172 
1 173 
1 17i« 
1 175 
1 176 
1 177 



HIR2U14000 



liiiKra 



PAGE 



tremandous amount of information about Nicaragua that ha had 
laarnad that I didn't know about aithar, that sha was wall- 
infotmad. So I dacidad during this pariod I dacidad that I 
was dafinitaly on tha right track but I was aftar a huga 
bear though with a plastic trap. I wasn't at all praparad 
for this . 

But this was dafinitaly somathing that paopla 
wara--good, strong consarvativas , had bacoma wall-inf ormad 
about and wara axtraitaly concaxnad about and uantad to act 
on. But I hadn't haard anything about it in tha Washington 
papars and saan vary littla oi it anywhata alsa. It was a 
surprisa to ma. 

2 Also did you concluda that this was an issua that 
thay probably would ba praparad to eontrlbuta monay for? 

A Oh, yas. You must undazttand that many of thasa 
paopla look at participation in Amarican politics bayond 
voting as somathing if thay can halp financially. This is 
part of thair participation and ii thay ara truly intarastad 
in a subjact. it maans I'm not doing this baoausa I'm borad 
to daath. I Mant action on this. All oi my contributors 
ara vary aetion-oriantad . In fact, thay hava baan 
chazactazlzad quita accuzataly I think in tha nauspapar as 
uazzioza. Thay aza somauhat ill at aaaa at a tlma of paaca. 
I gathaz. Thay ara vary activist, vary aotlvlst-oriantad . 
i^^Aft QazMood has callad ma at midnight about a 



untussw 



50 



NAHE : 
1 1781 
1 179 
1 180 
1181 
1 182 
1 183 
1 18U 
1 185 
1 186 
1 187 
1 188 
1 189 
1 190 
119 1 
1 192 
1 193 
1 1914 
1 19S 
1 196 
1 197 
1 198 
1 199 
1200 
1201 
1202 




HIR2414000 miV*"*""^" PAGE 49 

convarsation which sh* has just iinlshad with sonabody als*. 

I hav* a lot oi paopl* who hav* dona that lagatding sona 
issua and it's raally inspiring. It's vary inspicing. 

fi Going back to tha organization of KEPI, in aatly 
1985, you mantionad Ciiii Smith. Had Mz . Snith bacoita an 
employaa oi NEPL by aazly 1985? 

A Yas, 'SU ha was--li)ca in August oi '8it ha was aithaz 
woiking part-tima or £ull-tima. 

Q Was ha your iirst aaployaa at NZ?L7 

A Ko . No, I don't think so. 

Q I naan othar than a saeratary or somaona as a 
support staii. 

A Ha was tha iirst sazious iund raising parson othar 
than saeratary typas, yas. 

e And in January, 1985. was ha tha only iund raisar 
typa amployaa oi KEPL? 

A I think so. Ha lataz on hizad soma othar paopla 
who cama and want. I'a not sura I oould glva you tha 
chronological ozdar oi aaoh but ha was tha paraanant. was 
bacoming tha pazaanant ona. Not nacassazily NKPL. I naan 
ha was an aayloyaa ioz ACT. Ha did poMtloal wozk ior ACT 
in '8H and than in '85 ha did work ioz NZPL. 

ft All right. Now did you also In aazly 1985 anlist 
tha asslstanca oi Dan Conzad? 

A Hall. I bzought his to Hashlngton to ba an 



wussra 



51 



KAHE 
1203 
120(4 
1205 
1206 
1207 
1208 
1209 
12 10 
12 11 
12 12 
1213 

12114 

1215 
1216 
1217 
1218 
1219 
1220 
1221 
1222 
1223 
12214 
1225 
1226 
1227 



HIR2'4U000 



mmm 



PAGE 



SO 



assistant to Edi« Fraziat as h«lp for Edit Frazi«r and ha 
was intarastad m coaing to Washington for a llttla uhila . 
Ha was doing soma work or had son* daalings hara with soma 
oth«r corporations. I think Public Broadcasting was 
son>athing--ha was working out somathing with tham and ha said 
ha would coma to Washington and halp work with this dinnar 
to maka it a succass. Latar on in tha spring I askad him to 
stay in Washington and halp aa and I think ha startad that I 
think in lata Harch or aarly April, right bafora tha dinnar 
occurrad ha startad working with w . 

S But during tha pariod rabtuary-Harch whan ha was 
primarily working on tha dinnar, ha was not baing paid by 
you? 

A Mo. 

£ But ha was baing paid by Hrs . Praziar's group? 

A Yas . 

2 Is that your undarstanding 7 

A Or nobody. Ha sight hava baan paid by nobody. 

2 And nr . Conrad at that tiaa was basad in San 
PranciscoT 

A Yaa. 

2 And ha had his own company in San Pranoisco? 

A Yas. 

2 What was tha na«a of his company? 

A It's Public Hanagaaant Znstltuta, PHI. 



mmmi 



52 



NAHE: 
1228 
1229 
1230 
123 1 
1232 
1233 
123U 
1235 
1236 
1237 
1238 
1239 
12140 
12>4l 
12U2 
1243 
12UU 
12(45 
12146 
12147 
12148 
12149 
1250 
1251 
1252 



mMM "=- 



HIR21414000 i^lMl.^.. ^i.'t^'ife J a? IS PAGE 51 

S And you askad him in lata narch or April to stay in 
Washington and work with you at NEPL? 

A Foe a uhila . 

2 Foe a uhila. 

A Uh-huh. 

Q Hou, was that — 

A I fully intandad that ha would, you know, aaily 
sumnat 90 homa . 

Q Has that in tha rola as an amployaa or did you 
retain him or his company as a consultant to NEPL? 

A Ha workad out a consultant arrangamant. 

2 In April oi 1985 wara Mz . Smith and Hr . Conrad tha 
only parsons associatad with NEPL In a proiassional 
capacity? 

A I think so. 

2 You mantionad a coupla oi timas whan you callad 
consarvativa contributors you found thay wara much battar 
informad about Nicaragua than you and you fait you naadad ti 
laarn about tha subjact oi Nicaragua and Cantzal Amarlea. 
HoM did you go about doing that? 

I H«ll, oi coursa tha aKparlanoa oi tha dinnar and 
gatting that litaratura and talking to paopla who cama for 
that, that was part oi it, and than whan wa finally mat — not 
finally. Hhan wa mat Rich Hlllaz wa wara anguliad by 
axpartisa in tha Cantral Amarioa. Nioazaguan Issua. 



ml 



53 



KAni 

1253 
12S<4 
1255 
1256 
1257 
1258 
1259 
1260 
1261 
1262 
1263 
1264 
1265 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 
127 1 
1272 
1273 
12714 
1275 
1275 
1277 



jLMddsFIEb'" " 



HIR2U'4000 

dalightfully so. 

2 Did you contact anyon* at th« Hhlt* Housa about 
devaloping iniormation on Nicaragua? 

A Wall, aitai. whan tha dlnnar Mas fairly on tha way 
and during tha dabata hara on Capitol Hill. I raalizad that 
mayba thara was a political diaansion to this Kicaraguan 
issua which I hadn't thought oi or it's vary possibla that I 
bagan to saa tha political diaansion that was thara that I 
hadn't saan baiora. and so I'va got to ask you to halp na 
with his nana-'What ' s his naaa at tha Uhita Housa? 

2 Was It Ed Rollins? 

A No. 

e Was it John Kobartt that you talkad with? 

A Yas. that's right, John. Z had actually callad Ed 
Rollins' oifica. I had mat Ed twlea baiota in ay lifa and I 
wondarad ii ha avar raaaabarad so Z callad ioc him and said 
I would lika to talk to soaabody about doing soaathing to 
halp with tha Nicaxaguan issua. Thay waza dabating on 
Capitol Mill at that tima about tha vota. Is thara anything 
wa can do. Hhoavar tha saoratazy Mas said oh. yas. Ua will 
gat baok to you and finally ha oallad and said Z wantad to 
maat Mlth him quickly and snoop to find out Mhat was going 
on and li thara was a May Ma oould halp. and John said that 
ha would maat us for lunoh somaHhaca and talk to us about 
this issua. Z didn't knoM anybody alsa to call at tha Hhita 



yNCLASSIFIED 



54 



H&nE : 
1278 
1279 
1 280 
1281 
1282 
1283 
12814 
128S 
1286 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
129 1 
1292 
1293 
1294 
1295 
1296 
1297 
1298 
1299 
1300 
1301 
1302 




HIR2<414000 LllllJLnWVII i*mt^ PkGE S3 

Housa at all. Sine* u* war* so naw in tha political 
businass ouisalvas . I knaw that nobody knaw who wa uaia so 
ua took hin out to lunch ovat at Duka Zaibarts. 

e Who is ua? 

A Dan Conrad and I. Took him out to lunch and at 
that tima ha told us what tha situation was on Capitol Hill 
and tha dabata and what tha ptospacts lookad lika and what 
soma oi tha issuas waia. I taally was ignozant about so 
nuch oi this. I didn't avan know how tha coalitions on 
Capitol Hill broka down. And I wasn't avan sura what tha 
Ptasidant was doing. In fact, tha asount oi nonay ioz 
humanitarian aid kapt ascalating and daclining . I wasn't 
sura whara tha Prasidant was on that Issua. 

So ha said to us during lunch that — ha said ii you 
want to know whara to go you should go to saa IBC, th ia >- 
iallowptich nillar and Frank Goaaz. Thay ara tha Uhita 
Housa — outsida tha Uhita Housa on this issua. knd I know 
that othar paopla, Dan Conrad had said thay ara soaathing 
alsa baoausa ha has said It to aa at soaa tlaas . Uhita 
Housa out oi tha Uhita Housa stuck In ay aind bacausa I 
thought that was a graphlo dasczlptlon oi tha coapatanca oi 
thasa paopla, tha axpartlsa of thasa paopla. 

Ha sald--ha did not aaka any othaz suggastion. Ha 
didn't say go saa this parson, this parson or this parson or 
IBC. Ha said go saa Kioh Hlllaz. 



55 



NAHE ■ 
1303 
13014 
1 305 
1306 
1 307 
1308 
1309 
1310 
1311 
1312 
1313 

13114 

1315 
1316 
1317 
1318 
1319 
1320 
1321 
1322 
1323 
13214 
132S 
1326 
1327 




HIR2UU000 ..*,.,^.,w-- pjGE 5, 

fi Did h« axplain why h« b«ii«v«d th«y u«£« so 
knouladgaabla on this subjact? 

A No. Ha just said th«s* w*£* tha paopl* who could 
answar our quastions. halp us gat involvad with tha fzaadon 
fighters. Thay wara in contact with avarybody and that's 
uhara wa should go. 

fi Tha initials IBC stand for Intarnational Business 
Coitnunications : is that correct? 

X Yes. 

e Did Mr. Roberts Indlcata that that company or Mr. 
Millar or Mr. Qonez had had--had bean parfoming any services 
ior tha State Dapartaent? 

A I do not racall hla avat saying that. 

2 Did ha m that conversation use any phrase such as 
they were a front for soaa other entity? 

A Ko. I don't reaeaber that. 

2 You don't recall that? 

A Ko. 

a Mas this luncheon tha ilxst tlaa you had met Mr. 
Roberts? 

I Yas. 

fi Old ha say hoM ha knaM Ht . Hillat? 

I Ha aantionad that thay had Motkad In tha caapalgn 
togathaz. I can't raaeabaz what thay did togathaz but they 
worked in tha campaign together. 



IINWSSiFiED 



56 



NAME • 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
1334 
133S 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13U0 

13m 

13U2 
13143 
131414 
13>45 
13>46 
13U7 
13>48 
13>49 
1350 
1351 
1352 




HIR2I4U000 115^4.*'. C* . A .'^i^ !«,.»«■ pAGs 55 

2 MhTt" did you understand Hr . Roberts' position to b* 
at tha Uhita Housa at that tii««? 

i On* oi Ed Rollins' assistants. 

fi And Hr . Rollins was what? 

A Tha political director. 

2 Did ha mention anyone other than Hr . Killer and Mr. 
Gonez as a source for you to obtain information about 
Nicaragua? 

A Not to my memory he didn't. 

2 Did he suggest that you contaot them? 

A Uell, other than saying if you really want to find 
out about this you should-he didn't push it or anything. He 
3ust said those are the people. That Is where tha aKpattise 
sits and if you want to help and if you want to know how to 
help and want to know about MleaEagua> thay aza tha people 
who can help you. 

2 Was there any discussion at this luncheon about 
whether they would charge for helping you? 

A I don't recall that at all. 

a Did you indicate that you would Ilka to gat in 
touch with thaa? 

A Oh. yas. 

a Did you ask hla to make a call? 

A I think Z did ask hla. faallng oi course that we 
were unknown. I was unknown In Hashlngten. Z asked him ii 




57 



Nam 

13S3 

13SU 

1 355 

I3S6 

1357 

1358 

13S9 

1360 

136 1 

1362 

1363 

136U 

1365 

1366 

1367 

1368 

1369 

1370 

1371 

1372 

1373 

1374 

1375 

1376 

1377 




HIR2UU000 ...»„. „..^., .-^ p»sj 5, 
he uould call and tell them we would like to cone and see 
them. I had no idea--I didn't lemembei at that time that I 
had even met him beiote, but I had. 

S Hho are you referring to? 

A Rich fliller. 

2 Right. 

k And I think he said he would call and nay we were 
interested in Nicaragua and would they see us. 

S And you did then meet with Ht . Miller and nr . 
Gomez ? 

A Shortly thereafter. 

2 Has It the same day? 

A Might have been. 

fi Where was that meeting? 

A In their offices. 

2 And was that you and Mr. Conrad? 

A Hell, I think Dan went over first and I either saw 
them that day or very shortly thereafter myself. I know 
that Dan had the initial meeting with them. 

a Hhat was the reason for the initial meeting with 
MX. Conxad? 

A I must have had something else to do. 

fi Nothing more than that? 

A No. 

fi Hhat do you recall about your first discussion with 




n. s '. "I i i 

iJLi si. 



58 



NAME : 
1378 
1379 
1380 
138 1 
1382 
1383 
13814 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
139i« 
1395 
1396 
1397 
1398 
1399 

moo 

1<401 

1U02 



HIRZUUOOO 



«US 




PAGE 57 



Mr. Hillar and Mr. Go««z? 

A That again I was coming at this izoa a naophyta 
position--! was vacy impzassad with what thay knaw, who thay 
knaw. Thay knaw an awful lot oi paopla whosa namas Z navac 
heard of but thay said this pazson is this in tha Damoczatic 
Rasistanca and this parson doas this and this pazr-on handlas 
this and thay knaw a gzaat daal about tha politics of Latin 
Anazica in datail. Thay knaw tha histozy of ouz involvaitant 
in datail. Thay knaw tha paopla in Hashington who waza 
wozking with tha Pzasidant and against tha Pzasldant, and 
all tha politicians saaaingly in gzaat datail. 

Thay knaw--I was just vazy lapzassad. I fait that 
John Robazts had baan absolutaly zight, that thasa paopla 
indaad did hold tzanandous aKpaztisa and dapth on this 
issua . 

2 Did thay indicata in tha initial convazsation oz 
ona of tha initial convazsations that thay had baan angagad 
by tha Stata Oapaztmant to pazfoza sazvieas zalating to 
Cantzal Aaazloa? 

A Ko. 

fi Old you avaz laazn that? 

A X know now. 

a Hhan was tha flzst tiaa you baoaaa awaza of that? 

A Soaatlaa last yaaz at tha aazllast, lata last yaaz 



at tha aazliast. 



iwssw 



59 



NAHE : 

1U03 
lUOU 
lUOS 
1U06 
1 U07 
1U08 
1U09 
1<4 10 
1U1 1 
1412 
1i«13 
1U1U 
11415 

mis 

1417 
lUIS 

im9 

1420 
1U21 
1422 
1423 
14214 
1425 
1426 
1427 




HMfn 



PAGE 58 



HIR244000 

2 In th« fall of 1987? 
k Six. 

S rail oi 1986. 

* Y«s. I wasn't awat* of that during our 
relationship. Ha had a lot to do with tha Stata Dapartnant. 
Ha knaw a lot of paopla thara and ha talkad to us . I naan 
he sant us ovar thara for a briafing, for instance. Ha knew 
people in the Stata Oapartmant vary nail and ha talkad about 
that frequently. Ha nay have said at one tiita ua have a 
contract with than, but if ha did, it didn't hit. And then 
lata last year when I did find out it did hit. I naan I did 
recall it. 

But he had a lot of oontaots . Frank Goaas I guess 
had workad at tha Stata Dapaxtaant for a long tiae . They 
knew a lot of paopla in tha Stata Oapartaant and to say we 
are going over to tha Stata Oapartaant and gat this, we are 
going to have a aaating ovar thara. thay did a lot of that, 
but I don't raaaabar thaa saying for tha longest tiaa we 
have a contract with tha Stata Oapartaant. 

fi You ware iaprassad with Hr . Ulllar and Hr . Goaaz' 
knowladga In tha initial aaating about Cantxal Aaarica? 
t Vary auch so. 

fi Old thay provlda you any wrlttan aatarlals? 
I Yas. 
fi Has thara any discussion of a consulting 



60 



NAME ■ 

mzs 

1429 
11430 

ma 1 

11432 
1433 
1i43<4 
1K3S 
1U36 
11437 
1<438 
1439 

mi40 

1(4141 

mi42 
mi43 

1>4>414 
1Ut4S 
1UU6 
114147 
1I4U8 
1UU9 
1<4S0 
1451 
1U52 



HIR2UU000 



miftssife ,.., 



59 



azzangaitant with their company? 

X Its. Uhan I uas th*z«. 

2 This was th* iitst oc sacond tiit* that you sat with 
than? 

A Yas. 

2 Did you maka a proposal or did thay maka a 
proposal? 

A I askad than if thay would halp us. 

2 Uhat did you ask thaa to do? 

A Wall, I told than that I wantad to halp tha 
Prasidant ii wa could and that I had a foundation and I had 
a political action group and would thay lika to work with 
ona of thosa. that I figurad that wa wara going to do 
somathing avantually on this issua in hothJfo\xfs but that 
tha vota in Congrass was ooalng up and would ha lika--would 
Rich lika to hava a contract with ay political group to halp 
us do somathing. Wa wara not sura yat what wa wantad to do. 
but to halp us if. ii wa wara going to do nawspapar ads, 
radio ads or talavision ads< would ha lika to halp us do 
that. And X think tha agraamant was lika a 30-day ranawabla 
agraamant or somathing. 

I actually wasn't sura jriM far it would go> 
frankly. ind thay said yas. thay would ba glad to halp us 
and tall us who wa should saa for film. Thay had soma 
paopla in mind as to who could do tha oommarclals for us . I 



"WSS/f/fj 



61 



Hint 

1U53| 
1U5U 
lUSS 
1US6 

ms7 
1US8 
m59 

11460 
11461 

1(462 
1U63 

1146U 

11465 
1U66 
1>467 
1t«68 
1U69 
11470 
m? 1 
m72 

m73 
m7U 
11475 
11475 
1<477 



mu$®a ... 



HIR2UU000 imit«i iTM. ->■■'» >■— - PiGE 60 
asktd than spaciiically about that bccausa tha paopla who 
had dona tha comnazcials foz Tazzy waca taziibla. Tha 
paopla uara fina. Tha conaazcials waza just not good. 

fi Who did thay pzoposa? 

A Tha Good.ian paopla who tuznad out to ba I think 
vary f ina . 

e Now you say tha initial undazstanding you baliava 
was a 30-day agzaaaant or an agraaaant to covaz a paziod of 
30 days . 

k Yas. 

2 What was tha dollaz aaount? 

A Z think it was CSOOO initially ior part oi a month 
and than thaza waza axpansas involvad. 

fi And this was ozal and not wzittan? 

A Ua may hava gottan a writtan copy of it latar, but 
I don't zaaaabaz that wa-- 

S 1 taXa it thay eontlnuad to previda sazvicas to 
yottz ozganiiation aitaz tha 30-day paziod. 

A Hall, wa than eontzaotad with thaa Z thinK in nay 
to stazt wezking with Kin baeausa ouz pelitioal aetivitias 
on talavlslen andad and so wa staztad wezking with thaa 
thzeugh KttJ. and than paying thaa thzough NIPL. 

fi And was this a wzittan agzaaaant oz an oral 
agzaaaantr 

A I think wa got a bill on that. Thay just invoicad 




prpf 



62 



NAME : 
1U78 
1479 
1 U80 
lUSI 
1U82 
1483 

msu 

1M85 
1U86 
1487 
1U88 
11489 
1i»90 
1i«9 1 
1U92 
11*93 
1U9U 
1<49S 
1U96 
11497 
1t«98 
1U99 
1S00 
1501 
1502 



HIR2'4 14000 
US ttvary month 






PAGE 61 



Q Did you pay a sat anount avary month or did tha 
amounts vary? 

K Wall, I knou ua paid axpansas but ua also paid a 
set amount. 

2 A monthly f aa . 
A Yas, a monthly ratalnar. 
2 Uhat was tha monthly ratainar? 

A X think it want up to 15.000 soon. I don't know 
whathar it was tha sacond month or third month but vary 
shortly tharaaitar. 

MR. FKYHAK: Do you want to braak a littla aarly? 
nK. OLIVER- That's ilna. Hy appointmant is at 1. 
tlR. rRyriAN' Do you want to braak now and want to 
try to ba back as closa as 1<30 as possibla? 

MR. OLIVER: Could wa do it at ItUS? I naad >45 
minutas at laast. 

HR. rRYHAN: If wa ara going to — why don't wa 90 a 
iaw minutas mora than li that's all right. 
THX HXTNXSSi So do it. 

nt. rRYHAKi Can you go for ilva minutas mora? 
IRK HITNXSS> Sura. 
BY HR. FRYHANi 
fi nr. Channall, wa hava talkad about tha organization 
>i tha Amarican. Consarvatlva Trust In 1984 and tha 




63 



UNCLASSinED •• 






organization of tha National Endoim.nt for tha Preservation 
of Liberty also in 1984. No, you I b*Ii«v« also astabllshed 
other organizations; is that correct? 
A Yes. 

2 Would you identify the other organisations that you 
established and the approxinate^ date when they were 
established, and also give a brief description of the 
function of each? ^l^- 

I Sure. I established Sentinel I think 
never clear on these dates because there is always a tine 
lag involved, putting these things together and then finally 
getting the accreditation, but you could raise money for 

1515 then once you had requested tha acoraditatlon. So I'a 

15 16 always sort of fuz2y haza about aKaotly tha aoaent when they 

1517 got accreditation. 

'5 18 Sentinel, which Is a lobbying group. And then in 

1519 1985 we also established tha Aaazloan Conservative 

1520 Foundation, which waa anothaz foundation. That foundation 
152 1 was going to do Issues, fzankly. that waza mora worldwide in 

1522 scope and Intazast. That was tha Ideal plan fox that. And 

1523 as you knoM, In 19--ald-1986, I thlnK It was June, as a favor 

1521 to Hzs. Nawlngton wa took ovaz tha aanagaaant and tha 

1525 oonttol oi Hastarn Goals. 

1526 a That had baan an ozganliatlon haadad by Congressaan 

1527 JUfftrrmtillf 



KUSSffl 



64 



NAHE ■ 
1528 
1S29 
1530 
1531 
1532 
1533 
153U 
1535 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
1SU0 
1SU1 
1S>42 
15M3 
15U<4 
1SU5 
15U6 
15U7 
15X8 
15U9 
1550 
1551 
1552 



blAiiui 



PAGE 



63 



HIR2>414000 III' 

A Yas. Right. 

MR. ncGOUGK: What kind of organization was tha 
Anaiican Consatvativ* Foundation? 

THE WITNESS: It was a ragular foundation. 
HR. McGOUGH: 501C3? 
THE WITNESS I Yas. 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 

Now did you changa tha Organization oi Uastarn 
Goals aitar you took it ovar? 

A Wall, Linda Goodwall quit and--is that what you 
naan? 

fi No. Was thara both a Hastarn Goals Endowiant and a 
Wastarn Goals Foundation? 

A Fund. Thara urns ona organization and thraa 
diiiarant bank accounts. 

fi But to your knouladga thara uas only ona 
organization? 

A Yas. In faot, I didn't avan know tha othar two 
bank accounts axlstad for about six months aitar ua had 
takan it ovar I thought whan paopla talkad about Wastarn 
Goals Indoiimant Fund thay aaant Hastarn Goals. All I was 
iocuslng on was Wastarn Goals. But thara was an andownant' 
fund and than thara was sosathing alsa. 
fi But so iar as — 
A But it was just two ot thraa bank accounts 



65 



NAHE : 
1553 
15SH 
1SS5 
1SS6 
1SS7 
1558 
1559 
1560 
1561 
1562 
1563 
156U 
1565 
1566 
1567 
1568 
1569 
1570 
1571 
1572 
1573 
1S7U 
1575 
1576 
1577 



.IR2U.000 ll^fJ, /iQQi^iTri 
evidently. --»^*ra» •»■■# 



Q So fai as your aia conc«rn*d th* lagal stiuctuia of 
W«st«En Goals was not changad aitat you took It ovar. It 
ranalnad tha sana lagal structuxa? 

A Yas. sir. 

fi Going back to tha knariean Contarvativa Trust that 
was ioundad in 198U, wara thara tuo sapatata iunds undar tha 
Anarican Consarvativa Trust? 

A Yas. tha stata alaetion fund and tha iadaral fund. 

fi But in tarns of an organizational antlty> It's ona 
singla organization? 

A Right. 

fi Is that corract? 

A Right. 

2 Kow, othar than Santlnal and tha Aaariean 
Consarvativa Foundation, did you astahllsh any othar 
organization? 

A Hall, ua put togathax lagal papars for a consulting 
firm callad Hill Potoaao . It's not quit* thara yat. 

fi It has navar baan a funetloning antlty? 

A I think ua hava a bank account ot sayba I nada tha 
ohaok fox tha filing faa. Hayba that's what it is. But 
that's all. 

fi Did you astablish an organisation oallad tha Anti- 
Tarrorist Aaarican Comalttaa? 



UNCLASSinED 



)4 0-88-4 



66 



NAME: 
1578 
1579 
1580 
1581 
1582 
1583 
15814 
1585 
1586 
1587 
1588 
1589 
1590 
1591 
1592 
1593 
1S9U 
1595 
1596 
1597 
1598 
1599 
1600 
1601 
1602 




blKCi^ntU p»Gi 



HIR2UU000 IIEWI.R Ml- '. n S I a..L9 PieK 65 

A Oh, y«s. That was a iadaral PAC that w« 
•stablishad in tha spring of '86. 

S What was tha laason for that? 

A Z thought that frankly, incorraetly, that tarrorism 
was going to bacoma a aaior political Issua in this oountry 
of long-tarm duration. It has raally not. And that thara 
uara going to ba tranandous ramifications domastically , 
politically about this and thara hava not baan. And wa wara 
going to craata an organization that raally focusad on 
congressional attitudas toward tarrorisa and pollcias 
associated with tarrorism. It hasn't happanad. 

HR. ncGOUGR: Mhat kind of organisation was that? 
THE HITKESS' It was going to ba a fadaral PAC. 
KY HK. rtYHAK' 

e Uas thara also a stata alaotion fund with that? 

A Yas . Ha would always do that. 

fi Did you astabllsh anothar organization oallad Grow 
Uashingten? 

A Almost. Ha paid tha filing iaa fox that ona, too. 
and that was going to — Z had xaally fozgottan thasa baeausa 
wa hava navaz dona anything with tham. That was going to 
support fzaa antarprlsa candidatas in tha Oistriot of 
Columbia fox alaotion. 

a But that has ramalnad an Inaetiva organization? 

A Also. yas. 




^iiH i 



67 



HXnZ- HIRaUMOOO 




PAGE 66 



1603 
160U 
1605 
1606 
1607 
1608 
1609 
16 10 
16 11 



2 Aia thara any othar otganlzations that you hava 
astablishad that you racall? 

K I thinU that's it. 

e Has tha Channall Corporation continuad to aKist? 

A Not today. It want out oi businass a month ago. 

2 But It continuad to axlst in 1985 and 1986? 

A Yas, lagally. 

[Uharaupon, at 1=00 p.n.. tha dapotltion was xacassad, to 
laconvana at \--HS p.m., tha aaaa day.] 



NOUSSIFIED 



68 



KAHE: 
1612 
1613 
1614 
1615 
16 16 
1617 
1618 
1619 
1620 
1621 
1622 
1623 
162U 
1625 
1626 
1627 
1628 
1629 
1630 
1631 
1632 
1633 
163>4 
163S 
1636 



HIR2UI4000 
RPTS OOTSOK 
DCHN STEVENS 
2:00 p.m. 



AFTERNOOK SCSSIOK 



ONCUSSlFlEft 



AGE 67 



BY nX. rRYHAK! 

fi Hz. Channall. uh«n h« adjouznad for lunch u* had 
baan talking about your initial aaatlng Mlth Hr . Millar and 
Hr . Gomaz. Following that aaating. did KEFL In 1985 bacoaa 
involvad in suppocting lagislation In tha Congzass to 
pzovida assistanca foz tha zaaiatanoa In Nlcazagua? 

A In tha fizst aaatlng? 

fi Yas. 

I Hall, KEPL baeaaa avantually, a yaaz lataz. 
involvad in aducational aotlvitlas on Kieazagua. aetad as 
suppozting tha Pzasidant on Nioazagua in Apzll and Hay oi 
1985. 

Did Z haaz youz quaatlon oezzaotlyT 

fi Z say hava Ineorzaotly phzaaad tha fuastion. 

Tha suppozt ioz tha Pzaaidant's lagislation in 1985 
H«s paid for by ACT; is that zight? 

A Ixaotly. 

fi And tha suppozt by NIPl did not bagin until 1986? 

A Kight. Tha aducational eaapaign didn't stazt, wa 




69 



NAME : 
1637 
1638 
1639 
16140 
16<4l 
16142 
16(43 

16<4t4 

16145 
16>46 
16147 
16>48 
16U9 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
165(4 
1655 
1656 
1657 
1658 
1659 
1660 
1661 



HIR2UU0OO 



*4.*i?^"0'!i ILO page 68 



wat« planning it m lat« 1985, doing t««tlng and than wa 
startad it in Dacanbar 1985. 

2 What uas tha natura of tha support that tha ACT 
ptovidad In 1985? 

A I thxnk ua did two ads mayba. And ua put tham on 
various placas around tha country. 

a Thasa uara talavision ads? 

A Yas, thay wara T.V. ads. As I racall tha Prasidant 
lost ona oi tha votas by tMo votas . I truly can't rananbar 
uhich vota this uas. And so wa put on a aassaga saying 
sonathing liKa tha Prasidant is in saazch oi two votas. And 
that uas tha massaga. 

S Hara thasa ads praparad by tha tobart Goodaan 
Agancy? 

A Yas. 

2 You mantionad this »otning that Kr . Hillar had 
introducad you to tha Goodaan Agancy? 

A Suggastad that thay wara good. 

a Is it your raoollaetlon thara waza two talavision 
ads in 1985? 

A Z think wa did Bora than ona ioz tha saaa thing. 

fi Do you racall tha naaaa oi tha ads? 

A No. Z don't know Hhieh~Z. izankly. don't ramambar. 
wa hava den* so many. But Z do zaaaabaz that was tha first 
lina oi ona oi tha ads. And than m* did what thay callad a 





Oi;)U 51 



70 



xxni 

1662 
1663 
166U 
166S 
1666 
1667 
1668 
1669 
1670 
1671 
1672 
1673 
167K 
167S 
1676 
1677 
1678 
1679 
1680 
1681 
1682 
1683 
168*1 
168S 
1686 



wmm „.. 



HIR2I4I4000 \f i K-iy^rJ f:, i* it il^&# HGZ 69 
--by th« uay> I am not axactly sue* why thay entitled th« adj 
tha way thay did. It is somathing Bob Goodaan thought of. 

Ha did an ad on tha Kotaan Airlinat tragady. Thay 
callad it tha Koraan Aitlinar tragady ad. 

W* did an ad on--I think it u«m another ona for 
Nicaragua, a second one on Nicaragua. 

2 But tha Koraan ad was unrelated to the Nicaragua 
ad, Z take it? 

X Right. But ue put it on I think during soae of the 
sane tiae . I aa sorry. Z oan't think of the naae oi tha 
other ad. 

Q Has it your intention that tha Korean tiilina ad 
would have any effect on the Kioaragua vote? 

k I can't reaeaber what tha line was there. No, that 
wasn't really part of tha lobbying at all. Ha put it on 
very close to there and I aa not axaotly sure what tha 
purpose was. Z can't think of tha rest of the ad. 

fi Aa Z correct that you saleoted certain particular 
aedia aarkats where tha ad relating to Nicaragua would be 
run? 

A Tas. Kich helped us. guided us to various aedia 
■azKats plus Washington . O.C. 

a Hho atada tha decision about whleh aadia aarkats 
would ba used in 1985 fox this Initial ad? 

A Of eouzsa. Z ultimately did baoausa I was tha ona 




^i'^i^Lhi 



71 



Hint HIR2I4U000 



!JffiliS!F!ED 



ptez 



70 



1687 

1688 

1689 

1690 

1691 

1692 

1693 

169>4 

1695 

1696 

1697 

1698 

1699 

1700 

1701 

1702 

1703 

170t4 

1705 

1706 

1707 

1708 

1709 

1710 

1711 



who had to spand th* aontty. 

Q Did you ask ni . Hlllai for tacoaaandations? 

A Yas. Ua had a lot oi luppeit and advica itoa thaa. 
Again, I will go back to tha faot that thay vara aMpacts on 
this xssua. and thay knaM which asjuaant would appaal to 
which Congxaasaan. Thay knaw which axguaants would appaal 
to a lot oi tha various oonstituanoiaa around tha country. 
Z had coaa froa a political kaekground whara this 
issua and this typa oi issua w^rfnet at all ralavant. But 
thay did know tha doaastio political ralavant oi this, and Z 
was in tha procass oi laarning that. So Z raally want with 
thair guidanca. and thay aat with ethar paepla lika Dan 
Kuykandall a vary graat daal baioza thay prasantad a list to 
us. 

8 Did you yoursali coniaz or saak advl«a iroa anyona 
othar than Hr . Itillar and Hz. Ooaaa about salaction oi aadia 
aarkats? 

I 1 don't raoall that Z did. Qoodaan. wa would hava 
talkad to Bob Ooedaan about it, toe. 

9 You aantionad you uadarstoed Hz. Hillar aat with 
Hr. Kuykandall. Do you know oi anyona alaa ha aat with or 
discussad tha aarkats? 

i Mo. Ha could hava. Z aa net apprised oi that, 
fi What did you undazatand waza tha czitazia ior 
selecting aedia aazkats ioz these ads duzing this initial 



UNCLASSIFIED 



72 



1712 
1713 

17 m 

J71S 
1716 
1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 
1722 
1723 
17214 
172S 
1726 
1727 
1728 
1729 
1730 
1731 
1732 
1733 
173^ 
1735 
1736 




phasa in 1985? 

I Goodnass. I can — it would b«> Z can just jiva you a 
ganaral etitacia ior salactlng aadia aazkats noraally. I am 
net aura Z can sapatata 1985 izom 1986. I think it was tha 
sama daal. UhaEa thata was support ioz tha Pzasidant, ioc 
instanca. in his alaetion campaign, that may not hava baan 
zailactad in tha Congtassnan's votas. Tha way tha 
Congzassman had votad on issuas lika Nieazagua bafora. such 
as El Salvadoz. mayba tha Oaiansa Budgat oz an issua of 
Cantzal--mayba aid to Cantzal iaazica. Z am just tzying to 
think of — thaza waza lots of — tha thlzd would hava baan tha 
typa of azgumant that would hava appaalad to a non-eommlttad 
Congzassman. 

Ha dabatad — in fact. Z laaznad a gzaat daal about 
this, ua dabatad foz months on tha typa of azgumanta that 
would maka sansa to Congzassman. Baoausa in ouz lobbying, 
wa zazaly want out to thzaataning about it. Z think mayba 
twica wa said tha Congzassman was not suppoztlng tha 
Pzasidant and wa hopad ha would. 

Almost all of our ads said tha Congzassman hasn't 
mada up his mind yat. hasn't dacidad yat. Baoausa in most 
Instancas that is whaza wa waza. 

Ha waza daaling with Congzassi^^ who had not 
daelazad thamsalvas. Ha waza daaling with constltuaneias 
that ouz analysis showad would suppozt tha Pzasidant. So 



wmmm 



73 



1737 
1738 
1739 
1740 
1714 1 
17<42 
17U3 
17UM 
1745 
17M6 
17t«7 
17148 
17149 
1750 
1751 
1752 
1753 
17SU 
1755 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
1761 



HIR2U'4000 



UNCLASSIFIED .■■. 



72 



this uas tha mix. 

Espacially tha arguaants that aakas sansa to a 
Congtassman-'hoH do you maka sanaa to a Congrassaan, whara 
you can taka vary good aigumants and tha Congrassaan will 
turn away iroa thaa. You can aaka bad arguaants and tha 
Congrassaan aight pick up on it. What arguaants ara 
intalligibla to a Congrassaan. 

This goas back to his voting history, it goas back 
to tha history of his constituants . Ha had lots oi dabata 
about tha hiararchy in tha Housa> Mho was baholdlng to who. 
who balongad to what group, whathax thasa ads would aaka any 
diiiaranca or not. 

In 1986, I naarly llvad with Dan Kuykandall baeausa 
ha is such a vast rasouroa on tha history of tha Housa oi 
Rapzasantativas and tha way it works and you just don't taka 
a list of uncoaaittad Congrassaan and say hara is an ad. 
lat's go aitar^hpi. You ara stuapad if you do baeausa it is 
not going to halp you at all. 

nt. FLYMN' ira thasa aazkats pratty auoh in this 
araa of tha country as opposad to tha Hast C^st? 

Tll HZTNESS' Thara la nant to nothing on tha Hast 
Coast. 

nt. rLYMN> You waza oonoantzatad In this araa? 

THI UZTNKSS' No. wa oonoantzatad pzatty auch in 
tha Sun Bait. & llttla luok haza. but not auoh. But wa 



UNCUSSIFIED 



74 



KAME: 
1762 
1763 
176U 
176S 
1766 
1767 
1768 
1769 
1770 
1771 
1772 
1773 
177U 
177S 
1776 
1777 
1778 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
178>l 
1785 
1786 




dSlrltU P»GE 73 



HIR2UU000 ■i.s^sili ^-f^VJ'^ti Ikift^ P»GK 73 
focused our lobbying on CongzassaAn who truly h»d not m»d« 
up thali Binds, and I l«arn«d irom KuykandalJ. that avary 
Cengrassaan is truly an individual living in an historical 
and cultural tin* that you had battar appraclata baiora you 
put any ads on about thaa. 

Thay aust--tha ads aust ralata to tha Congrassaan. 
aaka sura tha Congrassaan will raspond to it, not — you know, 
whan you ara trying to gat soaaona to support you. you don't 
want to gat thaa aad . So that was a lot — you wara asking 
about erltaria. 

That is a lot oi tha ezitazla. 

BY HI. ritynAN> 

fi You aantlonad In 1985 tha ads wara sponsozad by tCT 
instaad oi NEPL? 

k that is right. 

fl Hhat was tha raason NEPL did net sponsor thasa ads 
in 1985? 

k Thasa ara lobbying ads. Thasa ara ads diraotly 
ra^uastlns support ier a piaea oi lagislation that is 
spacifie, not ganaral policy. Pelioias azan't lagislation. 
Hhan you ask soaaona to support tha Pzasidant's polioias, ha 
Bay not avaa naad any lagislation. suppozt tha Pzasidant's 
pellolaa In Ganava, ioz instanoa. Hall, what is tha 
laflslatlenr Thaza isn't any. 

So ouz lobbying ozganiiation aiaad at spaeiiie 




<fULJipjj^^ ir^ 



75 



NAHE: 

1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 
179 1 
1792 
1793 
179U 
179S 
1796 
1797 
1798 
1799 
1800 
1801 
1802 
1803 
t80M 
1805 
1806 
1807 
1808 
1809 
1810 
181 1 




f-'^vdiiiii} "" " 



HIR2UI4000 VllRfK .-I!,«.»t^ - *- IK PAGI 714 

piacas oi lagislation. That is th« only way u* know to do 
it. 

A Con9X«ssman--who do you know ha Is uncoamlttad ii 
thara Is no laglslation on tha tabla? 

2 But tha advaxtlsanants waza foeusad ot dlzactad 
towazds pazticulaz Congrassaan also In 1985? 

A That is all it Mas. Tha lobbying ads waza on a 
Congrassman? 

S Haza Congzassaan's naaas aantionad in tha 
advaztisaaant? 



^ 



I think soiia waza. I aa not suza ii thay.waza oz 



A 



not. 

S Ko, in 1985. othaz than tha advaztisaaants. what 
activitias did youz ozganizations undaztaka in suppozt oi 
tha lagislation? 

A That is all. It was ovaz. Z think, in May. 1 
can't zaaaabaz Hhathaz tha oenelusiva vota was Hay oz aazly 
Juna . But it was ovaz than, so wa quit. 

fi Again, ioousing on 1985. what taohniquas did you 
usa to zalsa iunda foz youz ozganiiations in 1985? 

A Hall, tha cantazpiaea oi all ei ouz iundzaising has 
baan saall aaatings oz pzivata bzlaiings as thay avolva, 
soaatlaas. But wa tziad to hava ioz aaoh pzogzaa a bziaiing 
ii wa could and hava axpazts in to talk about it and to 
davalop tha pzogzaa ioz tha gzoup and gat thaa to suppozt 




^.1; 




76 



1812 
1813 
181U 
1815 
1816 
1817 
1818 
1819 
1820 
1821 
1822 
1823 
182U 
1825 
1826 
1827 
1828 
1829 
1830 
1831 
1832 
1833 
183<4 
1835 
1836 






HIR2<4*tOOO -..,-_.,.. -^ -^ . .... rkat 75 
It. This was Just a--I Itaznad it at KCPkC. I think it is a 
good ptaetica. 

fi HoM> tha vota on tha Nieazagua aid you zacall Mas 
in kpzil or Hay of 1985? 

k Wall, thaza uaza two oz thzaa votaa . You saa. tha 
fizst vota, tha ?zasidant lost baioza tha Nieazaguan dinnaz 
finally oeouzzad. so it nust hava ooouzzad lika tha 2nd oz 
3zd of kpzil. Than thaza was a vota aftaz tha dinnaz 
sonatiaa. and Z think that Mas in Hay oz at tha latast, 
aazly Juna. Than it Mas ovaz. 

ft Hall. now. hava you had bziaiinga foz youz 
suppoztazs pzloz to tha saoond vota in Hay oz aazly Juna? 

ft Ko. 

ft But you had zun ads in oonnaotion with that vota? 

k Yas. 

tt Rom had you zaisad aonay foz thosa ads? 

k Ha had eallad savazal paepla and told thaa tha 
situation. Of ceuzsa. thay had saan it on talavlsion oz 
zaad it in tha nawspapazs. ind this was tha ozisis thasa 
paopla had baan vazy suppeztiva of tha Pzasidant, and ha 
fallad. And wa than daeidad wa waza seln* to tzy to do 
soaathins politically zathaz than with just tha zafugaas to 
halp hla and wa caaa up with an ad. 

Zt is net vazy ozislnal. by tha way. Host of tha 
paopla don't zalsa tha nenay to do It, that ii all. So wa 




:s 



U 



e 



77 



NAHE ■■ 
1837 
1838 
1839 
18U0 
18U 1 
18142 
18U3 

18>4M 

18145 
18>46 
18*47 
18(48 
18149 
1850 
1851 
1852 
1853 
185M 
1855 
1856 
1857 
1858 
1859 
1860 
1861 



HIR2U14000 



lilSSIFIED - 



GE 76 

uera abla to raisa tha money for th« ads. and so u* put, I 
think It was two nights of ads on. 

S Aitar th« vota, did you dacida to hava • btiafing 
with zaspact to Nicatagua? 

A Yas. Ua had actually — as you know in tha Congrass, 
all thasa tiitas voting slips, whan you think it is going to 
ba ovar. it may not ba ovar. Wa wara working at tha vary 
sama tima wa wara running tha ads. wa wara working to craata 
a briafing on Nicaragua in ganaral to sansltiza tha paopla, 
and ua had talkad with Rich Millar about tha possibility of 
doing that, and ha said. oh. yas, it is wary possibla to do 
that. Wa had wantad to know if ha oould halp us put on such 
a briafing, and I suggastad to hi« th»t wa try to go into 
tha Whita Housa for tha briafing, bacftusa I had baan to tha 
Mhita Housa for savaral briafings and Z knaw that would ba 
attractive to avarybody on aazth, of ooursa. 

Could wa hava a briafing in tha Hhita Housa? Hall, 
ha didn't know, but ha had suggastad that ha put togathar 
for us a raquast to go to tha Public Liaison Ofiica of tha 
Hhita Houaa and saa if thay would alloH us to hava a 
briafing. ind ha did so, and thay gzantad tha raquast 
fez— ultlB«taly it was for tha 27th of June. 

Thay had to postyona It two oz thzaa tiaas . Tha 
vote was posttonad, tha bzlafing was postponed, tha dinner 
was postpenad. 



"Ncussm 



78 



KAnE = 
1862 
1863 
186U 
1865 
1866 
1867 
1868 
1869 
1870 
1871 
1872 
1873 
187U 
1875 
1876 
1877 
1878 
1879 
1880 
1881 
1882 
1883 
188<« 
1885 
1886 



HIR2UU000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PkGE 



77 



I began to l«aEn that avazything slidas, that I had 
to ba vary cazaiul. And wa waza oziginally going to try to 
hava tha bziaiing in May, but it was postponed. So ua andad 
up having it tha and o£ Juna, which ua than ultimately had, 
but tha vota by than was long ovar. 

8 And tha Juna 27 briefing was the first briefing you 
had for your supporters with respect to Nicaragua? 

A Exactly. 

B And that was held at the Hhite House complex? 

A Yes. In the Executive Office Building. 

2 Hho spoke at this briefing? 

A Of course. Colonel North gave the now famous slide 
show, which he had given evidently to god knows how many 
groups before that. But he gave that briefing and someone 
from Public Liaison — I an not sure Z remember--! don't 
remember who. because Z wasn't there. I came in late 
because it was raining. 

Z brought a woman in a wheelchair and we got in the 
wrong entrance. And somebody form Public Liaison introduced 
tha thing, and then they introduced Ollie. 

And Z got in about half way through the briefing, 
and Ollle was in the slide show. 

S Hhen did you first meet Colonel North? 
At that time, that night. 

e On June 27? 




79 



KANE: 

1887 
1888 
1889 
1890 
1891 
1892 
1893 
189M 
189S 
1896 
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1898 
1899 
1900 
1901 
1902 
1903 
190i( 
1905 
1906 
1907 
1908 
1909 
1910 
191 1 



y!^C!iSS!F!EO 



PAGE 



78 



HIR2Ut4000 

A Yas. 

fi I Kaap having this stianga iaallng that I mat hxm a 
waak or two baioia. and I can't placa it. I just can't 
placa it. I kaep thinking I was taKan to his oiiica to ba 
intzoducad to him, but I just can't placa it. 

But I do ramambar vary claazly saaing him that 
night. 

e Now. you say that night. Tha brlailng at tha Old 
Exacutiva Oifica Building was in tha aitaznoon. was it not? 

A I think it was lika at sIn oz s*vait. 

fi Lata in tha aitaznoon? 

A Yas. 

fi Than what continuad into th« avanlng? 

A Ma had a pzogzaa which was a spaach by Calazo. Ma 
was going to spaak aitaz dinnaz. Baoausa tha puzposa ei tha 
avant was to giva him tha ohmok fzoa KKPl foz his paopla. 
Ma had his iaallias. ha had 20.000 iaailias oz somathing 
lika that, and wa waza giving him tha ehaeK foz humanitazian 
aid. waza going to pzasant it to him at tha dinnaz. which wa 
did do, but wa want aozoss tha stzaat to tha Ray Adams and 
paopla changad olothas and wa had eooktalls. wa had dinnaz 
and ha spoka. and than wa gava him tha ehaoK. 

fi Old Colonal Nozth attand tha dlnnac at lay Adams? 

A No. 

fi Did ha coma to tha lay Adams? 



BNSWSSffl 



80 



NAHE: 
1912 
1913 
19 1U 
19 15 
1916 
1917 
1918 
1919 
1920 
192 1 
1922 
1923 
192(4 
192S 
1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 
1933 
19 3M 
1935 
1936 






HIR2UU000 

1 No. 
fi So h* did not h«ar Adolfo Calaro speak that 

evening? 

k No. 

2 Had the noney been taised ioz this contEibution to 
He. CaleEO before the briefing or were checks presented by 
your contributors that day? 

k Both. 

e Both? 

A Yes. Ue didn't make out the check to Adolfo until 
late that afternoon, after the mall had cone in, because ue 
wanted as much money as we could get for him that day. to 
give to him that night. So the check was made out. Z think. 
on that afternoon. 

2 Do you recall the amount of the check? 

A I think It was *50.000. 

e To whom was the check payable? 

A 

a 

A 

fi 



Uhat is that? 

That is one of the accounts that Adolfo has^ 

Hho told you to make out the check to] 



A Klch Miller. 

fi Did you have any discussions with Hr . Calero about 
uhat use would be made of this •50.000? 




81 



Hinz 

1937 

1938 

1939 

1940 

19>41 

19142 

19U3 

19i«<4 

19I4S 

19i«6 

19U7 

19>48 

19*49 

1950 

1951 

1952 

1953 

19S'4 

1955 

1956 

1957 

1958 

1959 

1960 

1961 



ntlfTtroncd in his addzass th«y war* going to buy 
madicin* with it. K« talked about tha iact that tha 
hospital aquipitant and tants and uhatavaz thay usad to put 
paopla in Mara vazy rudimantazy . thay would usa it foz that. 
They uaza going to buy food foz it. thay waza going to buy 
clothing foz zafugaa fanillas. 

Ouzxng his spaach ha told avazybody what tha nonay 
was going to ba usad foz. Ha had askad him to ba suza to do 
that. 

Uas thaza any discussion of waapons? 
No. 

Did John Ramsay attand this maating on Juna 27? 
X don't think ha did. 

Had you pazticipatad in a dlnnaz with Hz. Xansay 
and Mz. Hillaz aazliaz in tha spzing of 1985? 
\ Yas. 

AppzoKinataly Apzil? 
Yas. 

What was tha zaason foz that dlnnaz? 
Ma wantad to halp Adolf o dizaetly, and ha was not 
intazastad in zafugaa aid oz anything lika that. Ha said 
that to aa. Ha could caza lass. Ha said If you avaz gat to 
talk to soaabody who is dizaetly involvad with tha fzaadon 
fightazs> I would lika to halp tham. 

I would zaally lika to halp dizaotly. And so in 



LUSSlFiEO 



82 



NAME- 
1962 
1963 
196U 
196S 
1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
1971 
1972 
1973 
197U 
197S 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 
1983 
198t« 
1985 
1986 



m-mm .. 



HIR2U14000 Wi ?->»..-,>'.;, J qj!;i jl |_ |J PAGE 81 
ouE discussions with Rich nillar. ha said that on* sight, 
that kdolio would ba in Washington iot a iaw days, and Z 
said, oh. my gosh, ua hava a guy who would lova to halp tha 
fxaadom ^ightazs dizactly, do you think you could aztanga to 
hava a fraa night ior kdolio and Z will saa ii wa can gat 
this guy to ily up haza and ha and Adolio can talk. tnd 
Rich was abla to do that. 

Z talkad to John Raasay and Z said, wa hava got tha 
haad oi tha itaadoa iightazs coaing up haza foz thzaa days, 
would you lika to coita up and talk to hi* about halping hia 
dizactly? 

Ha said Z would ba dalightad. Z will saa ii Z can 
do that. Ka was abla to coma. So ha and Z. Rich and Z and 
Oan Conrad and Gosaz itat and Rdolfo alssad tha dinnaz. But 
Rich said tdolio is. Z know what thay naad and Z know 
avazything about it and you oan talk to aa if you want 
dizactly bacausa Z know avazything about it. 

Hall. John saaaad to think that was all zight and 
wa had a dinnaz that lastad Z think thzaa or fouz houzs. 
Gonaz and Hillaz talkad axtanslvaly about tha whola 
baokground of tha fzaadoa fightaz aovaaant in Nicazagua and 
what tha naads wara. who was Rdelfo Calazo. who was UNO. 
what thasa paopla waza lika and what tha goals waza of tha 
izaadoa fightaza. and talkad about tha typa of waapons . John 
is an avid gun guy. and ha knows about all typas of hunting 




13 :i'^J%mTi'Kii\'l* 



83 



UNCLASSIFIEO 



PAGE 82 



NAME: HIR2UU000 

1987 weapons and •varything, so th«y sat th«r« and talkad about 

1988 diiieient Kinds of iiflas and pistols and what will b* 

1989 ruined in the rain and what won't be ruined in the rain, why 

1990 don't they vse this? 

1991 It was a very lively discussion. 

1992 At the end of the evening. Rich said, would you 

1993 like to help financially? And John said, yes, I would like 

1994 to help Adolfo financially. Rich said, well, you can if you 

1995 will make out a check to the Nicaraguan Developement 

1996 Council, it goes directly to the freedom fighters. 

1997 And John subsequently did that and gave I think it 

1998 was 420,000, and was really pleased to do that. 

1999 fi Do you know if nr . Raasey met with Mr. Calero 

2000 during that trip? 

2001 A Hot that trip. no. 

2002 2 Was a tape recording made of a portion of that 

2003 dinner with Mr. Ramsey that you have been describing? 

200(1 A Well, Dan Conrad I thought taped almost all of the 

2005 meeting. Ue were going to learn a lot from this. It is the 

2006 first time — Me had never discussed weapons or heard about the 

2007 different types of weapons to be used and that were needed 

2008 so I was really fascinated by the discussion. I said to 

2009 Dan. why don't you tape this and we will see what we can 
20 10 learn, and it was very worthwhile. 

20 11 2 Hhat was the ptooedure used for the taping? / 




2H. 



84 



NAHE: 
2012 
20 1 3 
20 lU 
20 IS 
2016 
2017 
2018 
20 19 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 
2021 
2025 
2026 
2027 
2028 
2029 
2030 
2031 
2032 
2033 
20314 
2035 
2036 



HIR2m4000 



ISIKSIFIED 



PAGE 83 



A Put tha tape r«cord«r in th« c«i\t«r of th« tabl«. 

fi So it was openly lecotded? 

A Oh, yes. 

fi There is nothing secret about the lecording at the 
dinner ? 

A Mo. 

2 Uas a transcript made of that tape? 

A Yes. 

2 And that transcript was sent to Rich Hiller for his 
review, was it not? 

A Yes. One of the problens with the tape recorder is 
we had to keep moving it around because It ls--it wasn't 
picking up voices and things like that. So there Is some 
garble. He sent it to Rich in order to get It clarified. 

Our secretary couldn't sake sense out of some of it 
and Rich was able to straighten it out. 

fi After the June briefing that you had described 
where you presented Hr . Calezo with a check for 
approximately *S0.000, did any of youz supporters express 
any concern about any control over the use of these funds? 

A You mean of those who were at the dinner? 

e Ox any of youz suppoztezt. Has theze any eoncezn 
about tha money being used foz puzpotes Intended? 

A Hell, John Ramsey had mentioned, as had Hzs . 
Newlngton. who did not attendTrneTtnex 



of them attended that 




85 



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dinn«r--that thay w«r« concarn«d about th« nonay b«ing 



HIR2U14000 



PAGE 814 



wasted, nonay bsing stolan. It is intarastlng, both oi then 
said they uondeiad if all this noney was going into the 
leadership' S.Swiss bank accounts. 

fi That IS both Hz. Ransey and Hes. Mewington? 
A Right. This was eazly in the spring of 1985. I 
had no idea what they weze talking about. I think they wece 
:ust guessing. I think there was an image, these Latin 
Americans have an image problem here in this country where 
everything they get the idea is it goes into Swiss bank 
accounts . 

And that was oi concern to me, too. I was very 
concerned. X had been through the experience, for instance, 
of a Kicaraguan refugee dinner where I have raised all this 
money and worked on and off for three months as have other 
people and they ended up giving 41,000 to the refugees. 
Where did it go? I know the dinner cost a lot of money and 
X know they had a very difficult time selling that dinner 
except through me and I think two or three other people. 

If everybody had dona what they were supposed to 
do, we would have been a great financial success. My money 
ended up paying for everything and I didn't Know my money 
wms aolng to end up paying for everything. So where did the 
rest of the money go? 

X was concerned about that. I had seen that 



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PkGE 85 



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happen, Ramsey had mentionedNto Rich Miller as early as 
April. When we had talked to Barbara Hewington, she was 
concerned that the money go where it was supposed to go. 
/]Gain, both of these people had prior experience 
with Nicaraguan activities and I hadn't. And I got the 
impression they had also had some very bad experiences 
giving money. And this was a concern to ne . 



Mmmi 



87 



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RP 
DC 
[2 30 p It. I 



PAGE 86 



TS MCGINN l!A3Aa Si a ^ 

HN SPRADLING MIiV^.^ -1 - 11 /* ^ ^ "^ -" f i 



And then w« had the situation where I made out my 
checks to the Nicaiaguan Refugee Fund. That uas one 
organization. Rich Miller had asked John Ransey to make out 
his check for Adolfo to th« Kicaraguan Development CounciJ. 
There uas a second organization. Now hare in June ue are 
getting ready to give Adolfo a direct check. I'm thinking 
It's probably supposed to b« mad* out to the Nicaraguan 
Development Council. I now hear no, you make out the check 
to^^^^^^^^^^^^^lThat ' s we have only been 

involved for 60 days . 

And I'm just naturally concerned because we want to 
help. >»« know^ which is the right place. I mean we have 
got three now. So I was concerned. 

S Did you take any steps to alleviate this concern? 

A I told — first oi all Z told Rich that I was--I didn't 
understand why w* needed at least two contracts for Adolfo 
Calero and that my people had talked to m* about their 
concern about where is this money going and here I said, you 
know, I share this worry. Mere we have one man. We have 
given two checks to this one man. It's two different bank 
accounts already. And so I was very concerned about it. 



mmsE 



88 



HAHE: HIR2UU0OO 



UIUSSIFIEO .. . 



20914 

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e You said that th« iiist tin* you i*call s««ing 
Colonel North was at th« Jun« 27th naating. 

A Right. 

fi What was your raaction to Colonal North that day? 

A U* had baan looking for a way to--as you know, for a 
month-and-a-hali w* had baan trying to organiza a briafing 
and wa had b««n to tha Stata Dapartmant to haar ona of thair 
briafars briaf on Nicaragua, and than thara was a USIA 
naating or somathing and thay had a briafing on Nicaragua 
and I don't think it was USIA's pxasantatlon. Thay brought 
sonabody in but Rj 



( ix wai 

ticl^ sad 



kid thay ara doing a briafing lika 
this. Why don't you go saa if that jt«. any good to halp you. 

Wa had baan to a maatlng at tha Hhita Housa, ona of 
thasa outraach maatings — actually two of than — whara thay had 
briafings on Nicaragua. Ollia North was not thara. So ua 
hava an aKparianca of at laast four diffarant briafings in 
town on tha issua. nona of which wara any good, nona of 
which laft you with any sanaa of anything, just horribla. 
boring . 

So whan I saw — and X said to Rich Millar in Hay 
whan wa waxa first appearing for a briafing at tha and of 
Hay Rloh. I hava baan to thasa things. You Know I'n looking 
for a good fora of coitmunicatlon. Xvary placa I hava baan 
it's a disaster. Please see to it that Colonel North's 
briefing is not a disaster. I said what does he do? And ha 



yNCLASSlFlED 



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2im 

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HIR2I4X000 IIIMIll Ni'tl^Bii iB_iJ PAGE 88 

said wall, ha has a slida thou. Z taid uhat ara thay? Uhat 
ara thay liKa? Ha said I don't know. Z said lat's look at 
thaa. Can you gat thaa foe us ahaad oi tima? Can Ma saa 
soma oi thasa slidas? 

Than Rioh said ha had soaa of tha slidas which ua 
lookad at and thay wara vary--thay wara ptatty good slidas 
and Z said you know, Colonal North ^ a good spaakarj this 
will not ba bad. although Z hata slida shows. This will not 
ba bad. Wall, it turns out that ha was pratty good, not 
naarly as good as Z would think you should ba. but Z watchad 
tha paopla in tha room and thay wara all axcitad to daath. 
ind than ha got to tha last slida. which is — it's tha 
Niearaguan iraadom iightar buriad and thara's a woodan cross 
Z think and ha suddanly ha bacaaa so powariully anotiva it 
was just lika his whola spirit axplodad. Ha bacaaa 
tramandously amotional and bacaaa ooapalling in his languaga 
and in his prasantation just about at tha and about tha naad 
to sava Latin Anarica. to sava iraadoa. that thasa paopla 
wara sacriiicing ior Aaarloa and ior iraadoa all evar tha 
world, and wa hava a aajor rasponsibility to saa that tha 
Prasidant's policias ara succassiul thara. 

ind whan ha stoppad and thay ilippad on tha lights. 
avaiybody was just rivatad to hia. And I daoidad it was a 
succassiul briaiing, you know. Z aaan this had. raally 
wotkad. And so whan wa want ovar to tha'3»«tfs that's what 



UNCLASSIFIED 



90 



21UM 
21<45 
2146 
21147 
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2 158 
2159 
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2165 
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HIR2U'4000 yilWVIlwW'" pjgj g, 

th«y all said. It uaa wondaziul and thay thought this 
Colonal Hozth — soma oi thaa had aat hla baioza — was Mondazful. 

And so I said to Dan Conrad, it aust ba wondaziul. Ha hava 
got to ba vazy sansltiva to what our contributors iaal is 
good. Ha ara sort oi jadad baing in Washington anyway. So 
I said — thay talkad about hia all night long how wondarful 
that briailng was. 

Tha briafing was vazy daiinitaly adueatlonal. Ha 
took you baautiiully thzough tha whola situation and 
praparad you ior this vary powaziul aao^ional oliaaM. knd 
tha ozganization oi tha bzlaiing was spactaeulaz. So I said 
to aysali wall, ii wa avaz hava anothaz ona Z hopa wa gat 
hia. Z had no idaa how you got hia baoausa wa. ei eeuzsa. 
had zaquastad tha bziailng thzeugh"^ubllo ^iaison and in ay 
mind thay had 10 oz IS paopla ovaz at tha Hhita Mousa that 
could pick up tha notabook on Nicaragua and zun and bziai a 
group at any tiaa. and whan thay wara all usad up thay took 
soaabody alsa. 

Z didn't know that ha was—at that point Z didn't 
zaaliza ha was that aueh ei a spaelalist at all. So I said 
to Kieh. you know, wa naad to thank hia vary auch. Ra has 
baan — this has baan raally suceassiul. Z wondaz ii wa can 
gat away to ask hia to halp us soaa in tha iutuza . ind 
that's — that was aitaz tha dinnaz whan Z saw how suceassiul 
ha had baan with all thasa paopla that Z dacidad ii wa could 



UNCUSSiRED 



91 



KANE: 

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GE 



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HIR2UU000 yV«^^'-* PA 

get him again, it would b* uondAxful. 

2 Wh«n was th« naxt contact you had with Colonal 

A Uall, ua arrangad to hava a.btiaiing for Mis. 
Neuington, who could not attand this briafing. Rich callad 
at tha Uhita Housa and found out that Colonal Kotth could 
briei her in tha avaning aitat his work was ovax for about 
20 minutas, I think, or half hour, if sha cama to town. 

2 ApproMlmataly whan was that? 

A Just about within a day ot two I think of tha 
bziaf ing . 

e All right. 

A And I callad hat up and I said I would lika you to 
coma down hara and haat this bzlailng and *•• what is going 
on and talk to tha paopla at tha Uhita Kousa who raally know 
tha situation in Nicaragua. Mould you do that? And sha 
said wall, you know, hammad and hawad and than sha finally 
said sha would try to run down for that. Bacausa I was zaal 
imprassad with tha way tha oontrlbutors raactad to Colonal 
North. And so sha did eoaa down and ha did briaf har and 
sha was llkawisa vary imprassad with what ha did. 

8 Now did you attand that brlaflng also? 

A Z did. 

a And that was within a fau days of Juna 27th? 

A Vary faw. two or thzaa ona dlzaotlon or anothar. 



mmmB 



92 



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mMB „. 



91 



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S And so you mat Colonal North on tha second 
occasion? 

A I laally got to say hallo to hin mora than than I 
had bafoia bacausa I had 35 paopla to shaphard out oi tha 
Uhite Housa bafota and gat than actoss tha stiaat and it had 
lainad and I had this lady in tha uhaalchair and than I was 
supposad to ba ovac thaza at tha hotal to gzaat all oi tham 
as thay cana in, and it was vary difficult to do that and to 
thank Colonal Notth. In fact, uhan wa had tha dinnar tha 
night of July ona of tha Inpoztant points I wantad to aaka 
at tha dinnar was to tall him how much X appraciatad what ha 
had dona and tha tima ha had takan> would ba abla to taka to 
halp us bacausa by than ha would hava bxiafad two — Mrs. 
Kawington alona and tha 35 paopla. 

Q Hhat was tha dinnar tha night of July you rafarzad 
to? 

A That was tha dlnnaz whaza Colonal Korth and Rich 
Millar. Frank Gomaz and Oan Conrad and I sat down togathar 
and I talkad to him about soma of tha Issuas you brought 
out . 

a Has this a dinnar you ra«uattadT 

i Z askad Rich if thara — ln tha naar futura is thara 
any way wa oan sit down with Colonal North — Z always lika to 
go out to althar lunch or dinnar and hava dinnar and tall 
him what our plans ara . what wa would Ilka to do. gat soma 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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UijA iLU ?»ce 9i 



HIR2UU000 aifiVlll n'jj^;:i^ il^U rkCE 92 

input fioit hin. saa if in tha futusa wa hava briaiings. 
bacausa ua uaran't suza ua could, at tha Hhita Housa, hou 
could ua insure that wa would draw hla--was thara a way wa 
could do it or--bacausa I zaally did hava tha faaling that 
lots of paopla uaza ovar thaza briaflng and how could wa do 
that. And I uantad to know what his idaas wata foz a 
canpaign in Amarica to support tha ftaadom iightars. And I 
wanted to Know mora about tha fraadoa iightazs. 

S So you scheduled a dinner ior the 9th of July. 

A So we were able to get an appointment with him foz 
the 9th of July. 

fi Uheze did you hava this dinner? 

A In the basement oi the Adams in the Grill Room down 
there. 

S And you covered the subjects that you just 
described? 

A Yes. 

e Hhat else did you talk to him about? 

A I talked about — Z brought up the complaint that — now 
ha had mat Hrs. Mewington. Me did net know John Ramsey but 
I had at this point made out these cheeks to these various 
organizations and I said to him Colonel North, we are trying 
to support the freedom fighters and we have contributors who 
are very concerned about the freedom fighters and what is 
going on with their money and what will they do with their 



UMEUSSm 



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HIR2UU000 y II VL>riUU<ii HUoa^- pj^gj 93 
money. And how do you know what th«y ara doing with thair 
money and is it going--! quoted Kansey and I said is it going 
to Swiss bank accounts. People want to know. 

Ue have a lot of TeMas givers. They don't have 
neatly the respect they might have for Latin Americans, 
these are problems that we have supporting the President. 
It eventually becomes supporting the President because if 
people think the President's allies aren't very honest, 
you're not going to get support for a presidential policy 
that is benefiting allies that are not honest. I'm not sura 
how much money you or I could raise in support of Saudez 
even though the President may think the world of his because 
we are not sura what they do with their money and wa think 
maybe they have a lot already and mayba a lot stashed away 
already . 

So I wanted to tall him this baoausa among other 
things. I didn't think the White House understood that this 
is the way a lot of Americana thought and this was part of 
the reluctance to support. 

fi Hhat did ha say in response to this concern that 
you exprassadT 

A Hall, ha said that ha understood this, that he had 
haazd this before, that ha was wall aware of It and since he 
knew, by the way. soma of my good contributors before I met 
him, they may have talked to him — ha knew Ellen Garwood 



WlHSSffl 



95 



HXR2>4<4000 



m^3B „.. 



NAHE 

2269 beiora ha knaw ma and ha knaw Bunkar baiora ha knaw ita and 

2270 thara nay hava been some othez people uho belong to this 
227 1 Council of National Policy which he had met with sevetal 

2272 times that I also knew and they already knew Ollie North. 

2273 And he said that there was concern out there and he was very 
22714 well aware of it and as far as we were concerned, when we 

2275 wanted to give aid. aid checks, just to work it through Rich 

2276 and Frank, that that is the way we could be sure that the 

2277 money would go directly to the freadoa fighters. 

2278 fi Were you given any mora-- 

2279 A He said f xna . 

2280 2 Hare you given any more ■paclflo instructions than 

2281 that? 

2282 k I don't recall. 

2283 e Did ha say pay the money to IBC. for example? 
228>4 k Ko. I don't recall that. 

2285 s Just work it through Kich and rzanK? 

2286 k Klght. 

2287 fi And Is that the Mannaz In Mhioh you came to aaka 

2288 further eontzlbutlensT 

2289 A Bxaetly. 

2 29 ft And how did you do thftt in tho fututo? 

2291 A Ho just made tho chocks out Z wot going to say to 

2292 Rich and Frank, but not to Kich and fxank but to IBC. 

2293 ft To IBC? 



iiNcinssife 



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A Uh-hii 

2 And at soma point did Kr . Hlllac instruct you to 
raaka tha chacks to an antity othat than IBC? 

A Hall, a yaat latar ha askad us ii you ara 
considaiing this--is it IKTEL? 

2 IBC, Inc. or IKTEL Cooparatlon. 

A That was last yaar whan wa wara raising this money 
for food ua had sant soma monay ioz food ovar to him and ha 
sent the check back and called ma and said would you be kind 
enough to remake the check to INTEL. Inc. and bring it right 
back to ma. which wa did. I thought ha had opened an 
account or something here in Hashlngton called that or was a 
new account for him. Ha did not have any ldaa--whlch I'm 
sure you already know — that these chacks ware going out of 
the country until wa got them back and about a month after 
we got it back, my accountant called me up and said Spitz, 
are you aware that this chaok has bean out of the country to 
IKTEL? I said of course it hasn't. We just gave it to Rich 
over at his office bacausa X waa thinking it was a Rlggs 
Bank account. 

Ha said no, IKTEL Is a Cayman Islands bank account. 
And I was taally surprised at that. I guess that's what 
you mean about the other. That happened much, much, much 
latar. 

Q Did you say anything to Hz. Hlllar after you 



UNClftSSflEO 



97 



NAnr 

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HIR2'4i4000 ISaUS'l 2»^.~,.";"jJ «j 3j li PAGE 96 

learned that the check was going to a Caynan Islands bank? 

A Yes. We had made out I guess thtee or four to hin. 

2 What did he say when you spoke to hia? 

A Ha told ne that that was an account for Adolfo and 
that It was perfectly legitimate. He had all the papers and 
the account showed where all the--what was to be done with it 
and the board of governors and it was 100 percent legal for 
us to do that, for him to instruct us to do that. But I 
want to make clear to you he said--he only told me that like 
last October or November because very shortly thereafter 
when this crisis developed and they were talking about 
offshore accounts, then a lot mora cane out than I knew. 

fi Is it correct that after your dinner with Colonel 
Horth on July 9, 1985 where ha told you to send the money 
through Rich and Frank, that all of the funds that you 
transferred to the Nicaraguan Resistance were transferred 
either through Hr . Miller's account in the name of IBC or in 
the name of this other account, which I later learned was in 
the Cayman Islands? 

A Well, there was at least one exception when we did 
activities — we gave Christmas money for Adolfo's families and 
I sent the check I think directly to him. 

fi Other than that one exception — 

A Yes. Z would think it would be almost all of them. 
I think so. 



immsRa 



HAHE • 
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HIR2UM000 Ua^'U'^-f*'-Wi« S*-W p»GE „ 

2 Mow at th« July 9 dinner with Colonel Korth you 
also exprassed to him your hop* that h* would paxticipat* in 
fututa briaiings. What was his raspons* to this zaquast by 
you? 

A I thankad him a lot bacausa ha ' s a iadazal official 
and I knew ha was vary busy and ha had takan tima twica to 
halp us out, and I was daaply indabtad to him and thrillad 
to death that ha did it and raally appraclatad vary, vary 
much, and told him how much I thought of him and what my 
contributors had dona and how wondarful thay thought ha was, 
and ha inspirad tham and how could wa arranga it if mayba 
you ara fraa you can do it again. 

Ha told us you just hava to go through tha sama 
procass and ha was doing a lot of tham and mayba wa would 
gat him and ha would try if ha could to do it. If ha had 
tima ha would ba glad to do it. Than I said wall, do you 
avar fly out of Washington to do brlafings? Could wa ask 
you to do that? And ha said that had baan dona also and 
that his tima was not his own> that ha had an awful lot to 
do but ono* in a whila ha could do that, but it would just 
ba if ha had a fraa momant, that ha was vary, vary busy. 

But in principla ha would ba dallghtad to do that. 
Tha raason why I askad him about flying out of Washington 
was bacausa Elian Garwood had told ma ha had baan down to 
saa tha Council of National Policy and btiaf tham and latar 



amiissiFe 



99 



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HIR2UU000 urlbLAooss irU p*« ^s 

I leacnad from Bunker that h* had baan down to anothar 
national policy council at a difiaxant location in tha 
Unitad Statas, and ha had flown down to saa than. So thay 
ara a vary prastigious group of consarvativas . So whan ha 
said that in principla it was okay with hiii, I raally fait 
vary good about that bacausa I thought nayba ha thinks wa 
ara aliiost as worthwhila as this wondarful group is. But ha 
said in principla that it was not against his policias if ha 
had tima . 

fi Did ha mantion any spacifie briaflngs that ha had 
dona outsida of Washington? 

A Ko. I knaw bacausa of what Zllan and Bunkaz had 
told ma but I don't ramambar him mantioning somathlng to ma. 

Ha may hava but I just — I know ha mantlonad that ha was--whan 
I askad him about how busy ha was > ha was saying that ha was 
doing briaflngs to avan paopla lika tha woman of tha 
nathodist Church at tha Whita Housa . Ha said that's how 
busy wa ara ovar hara with thasa briaflngs. 

a Did Colonal Korth conduct a numbaz of briaflngs for 
your contributors aftaz this dlnnaz In July of 1985? 

I Yas. Ha raquastad on* In Ootobaz and ona in 
Kovambaz. and ha did both of thosa. 

S Old ha do any prlvata briaflngs In 1985? 

A Yas. Ha briafad Elian Garwood and may I say with 
privata it maans not publlo. Ha bzlafad four of our 



HNEIASSRS 



100 



NAHE: 
239U 
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2M00 
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2<402 
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2>(06 
2U07 
2(408 
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2mo 

2U1 1 
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HIR2i4(4000 




PAGE 



99 



contributors at ona tin* in on* oi. what I would call 
ptivata bziaiings and than ha briaiad sIk oi out 
contributors at ona tima in what Z would call a prlvata 
br iaf ing . 

2 Tha briaiing with Hrs. Garwood, was that in 
Washington or was that in Taxas? 

A Ha saw har twica. 

fi In 1985? 

A Yas . Tha ona in Taxas was not raally auch of a 
briaiing. Sha was thara about tan ainutas . 

Q Was that a aaatlng at tha airport in Taxas? 

A Yas. Sha cana out just to say hallo to hia. Ha 
talkad to har for a faw ainutas. 

S Thara was a sacond aaating — 

A Har first ona was hara in Washington tha 18th of 
Saptaabar or August. 

Q And whan was tha aaating at tha airport in Taxas? 

A I think tha 10th or 11th of Saptaabar. 

Q You aantionad that ha also aat with two othar saall 
groups of your contributors? 

A Yas. I tall you I gat thasa two briaf ings--thay ara 
a aonth apart and I kaap gattlng tha datas eonfusad as to 
whan ha aat with tha groups. Ona group was tha Pantacosts 
froa Taxas and thara wara two of thaa and than thara was 
Mrs. McKlnlay froa Taxas and tha Brandons, Kr . and Mrs. 



DNCUSSIFJED 



101 



NAHE ■■ 
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242 1 
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HIR244000 



UNCLAllFIEl 



PAGI 100 



Brandon from Georgia. That was on« . I'm sorry I just don't 
know th* dat*. It was either October or November. 

2 That was in Washington, D.C. 

A Yes. That was in a larger room. And then he met 
with Mr. Ramsey and Hrs. Adamkiewicz, and Hrs . Christian, 
and during both oi those meetings I was there and he also 
met with them. 

fi And that again was in October or November? 

A Yes. They cannot occur at the same meeting. One 
group met with one brieiing and one group met with the 
other. I can't remember which one it was. 

fi And that was again in the old Executive Oiiloe 

Building? 

% 
A Yes. There's sort oi a committee room close to his 

office where you can handle more than two people and we went 

over there. It hasn't been dusted since the Second World 

War. I mean it hasn't been. 

fi You mentioned other briefings in October or 
November. Ooea that mean there were larger group briefings? 

A Yes . We had formally requested from the public 
liaison office. 

fi So just to summarize, there were two larger 
briefings? 

A Yes. 

fi There was a briefing in Washington with Mrs. 



UNCUS 



inil 



102 



NAHE: 
2>4>4U 
2UU5 
2UU6 
2UH7 
2U<48 
2>4I49 
2(«50 
2U51 
2K52 
2U53 
2(45>4 
2>«S5 
2U56 
2MS7 
2MS8 
214S9 
2>460 
2(«61 
2U62 
2U63 
2U6>4 
2<465 
2<466 
2467 
2M68 



mmm -- 



Garwood . 

» In August. 

2 Th«r« was a s«cond briaiing with tha Ransay, 
Adankiawicz and Christian group and thara was a third snail 
briefing with tha Pentacosts. HcKlnlay and Brandon group. 

A Right. Six. 

2 Kara thaza any othar briaflngs by Colonal North in 
1985? 

A That's--! think that's it. 

e Did ha maat with Mr. Hunt in 1985? 

A Yas . Ha flaw down thara and that's whan ha saw 
Elian. 

fi In Dallas? 

A Yas . That was tha saaa avaning. 

fi And ha had dinnar with Hz. Hunt and with you? 

A Yas. yas. 

S I'll coma back to that latar. but othaz than 
idantifylng that maating can you think oi — 

A I didn't consldar that — I thought you waza talking 
about Washington maatings. 

S Haza thara any othazs outslda oi Washington? 

A Othaz than that ona, that was it. 

a Okay. 

Hhlla wa ara on tha subjaet oi bzlailngs by Colonal 
North, turning to 1986 and just iocuslng on tha largar group 



UNWSSlBffl 



103 



MAHE : 

2U69 
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UNCLASS^FiEi 



HIR244000 - - ■ - PAGE 102 

biiafings, do you recall the dates or the approximately 
dates of those in 1986? 

A Ue had the big one with the President. 

2 That was in January? 

A Yes. 

2 Now other than that, what briefings did Colonel 
North participate in? 

A Well, there were two that were very snail that we 
had requested through public liaison. I think it was in 
March and April. They were not very successful. I nean 
people just didn't come. 

S And an Z correct that in 1986 Colonel North had a 
number of smaller private meetings with your contributors? 

A Right, right. 

2 Hr . Channall, did a pattern develop with respect to 
the larger meetings or briefings by Colonel North in that 
they were held in conjunction with meetings of your 
contributors at the May-Adams Hotel? Did you arrange for 
the contributors to stay at the Hay-Adama Hotel when they 
came to Hashington for these briefings? 

A If we could. 

2 And were there normally receptions or dinners at 
the Ray-AdaBs that followed the bxleflngt? 

A Yea. He always had a program after the briefing. 
Colonel North was simply supposed to give a military and 



UHCUSSifia 



104 



2I49U 
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HIR2>4<4000 



UHWSSIFIED 



PAGE 103 



political updata about Kicatagua and that's what his tola 
was in thasa avaning avants and that's all ha did. 

2 How, who axplainad to him his tola, if anyona? You 
said that was his tola ot that's what ha was supposad to do. 

Is this sonathing that was discussad among you ot how was 
this wotkad out? 

A Ko. Ua continuad to taquast ha ba abla to giva his 
slida show and that's what ha did. That's all ha did. 

fi rtom yout point of viaw, was tha putposa of thasa 
btiafings to satva as an aid to taising funds? 

A It was--wall, thara wata many puiposas. Any tima an 
official ftom tha Uhita Housa talks about an issua that a 
gtoup in this country is supporting, you'ra going to racaiva 
gtaatar support, anybody. I hava baan to maatings whata 
paopla whom I did not know axistad would coma as somaone's 
assistant assistant assistant and talk about an issua and 
paopla would say wall, tha-t's — tha Prasidant supports that. 
Ha sant this raprasantatlva, wondariul. You ara halping, 
good. Out monay will ba a llttla bit hlghar bacausa of 
that. 

This briaflng that ha did. this slida show was 
obviously vary convincing and vary supportiva. no doubt 
about that. And it woka a lot of paopla up. And that was 
vary supportiva. Balng abla to taka paopla to tha Whita 
Housa for this aducatlonal avant and than bring tham back 



UNCmSSIFlEO 



105 



N»nE ■ 

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•" n 



s 



HIR24U0OO - pjQE ^qU 

across tha stieat whaze ua had our own progran and our own 
fires to ilama. having them over thara, giva tha 
education--ua didn't have to do that and having sonaona do it 
really wall was even better. So that was an important role 
ior hira and he helped us not insubs tantially by acting in 
that role in such a superb way. There's no doubt about it. 

2 Has It your practice at the meetings with the 
contributors generally at the Hay-Adams Hotel following the 
briefings to ask for contributions to your organization? 

A Yes. He only had the briefings In order to have — to 
carry on part of our program farther, our KZPL program. 

e In the briefings by Colonel Korth that you 
attended, did you ever hear hln ask the persons attending to 
contribute any funds to your organization? 

k You mean at the Mhita House? 

2 Yes. 

A Ko. 

2 Did you ever have any dlsousslona with him that he 
could not do that or that ha would not do that? 

A Ko. 

fi Do you know li he was aware that you were 
raquaating contributions at tha Hay-Adams following these 
briefings? 

A Oh yet, sura. 

2 How do you know that? 



yHCiftSSiFe 



106 



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HIR2U14000 PAGE 105 

A Hall, in tha ptivata briafingt that ha had with our 
contributors, ha was awara that thasa paopla had alraady 
been giving to us ioz Central Amarica bafora thay mat with 
him. Now ha didn't know whathar it was at tha Hay-Adams or 
whether I called them on tha phona last weak or whether I 
had been down to Texas to sea them, but ha was awara they 
were active contributors to our Nicaragua program. I'm not 
sura ii I aver said Ollia. parson A gave X amount to us at 
dinner. I don't think X ever did that. But ha was awara 
that thasa people ware helping us with our Central American 
freedom program. 

2 Did you ever make any sort of report to him to tha 
effect that your briefing in Ootobar. 1985 resulted in 
contributions of a certain amount of money to our 
organization? 

A Yes. That particular example. no> but several 
times when people would glva ohaoKs oz something I would 
either call him and say you won't bellava what we have 
received from X person. I would inform him from time to 
time of tha success that we had had. 

fi Hould these be following both tha individual 
briefings and tha group briefings oz was there any pattern? 

A I don't think there was any pattern. Soma people, 
for instance, would say I would like to give you 410.000 and 
I'm going to do it in two months oz X would like to give you 



WUSSffl 



107 



Hint- HIR2>4>4000 



wussra 



PAGE 106 



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a hundred thousand. I'm going to do it naxt nonth and I 
wouldn't — I wouldn't call him unless I was taally happy about 
something, having received it. So it might not have any 
relevance to a briefing as iar as time goes. But I did call 
him with that information when it happened. 

S Do you recall specific Instances of telephoning 
Colonel Morth and reporting that a substantial contribution 
had been made following his individual meeting with one of 
your contributors? 

A Oh yes, sure. 

2 On more than one occasion? 

A Probably. 

S Kow do you recall a similar report to Colonel North 
following a meeting that he had had with a larger group of 
your contributors? 

A I'm sure we did. It just doesn't stick out in my 
mind . 

9 You don't have a speolflo reoolleotlon at this 
point? 

A No, mainly bacauae we didn't — the money would not 
often be there the day after, you know. It would trickle in 
over a period of time and so I think unlets something major 
happened. It would have been unnatural for me to have called 
him after a meeting and say we raised to muoh money at this 
time. He just didn't do that. The only time where we did 



ilNCUSSIFIED 



108 



PCLftSSlFP 



NAME: 
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261 1 
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HIR2I4 14000 



P»GE 107 



do that was th« ona msating in January uhai* u* askad paoplft 
ioE monay immadiataly to start our work and a lot of paoplc 
sent monay in ahaad of tina. and sona paopla brought nonay 
with tham and soma paopla sant monay vary shortly 
thereaftar. And I know I told him that wa had raisad a 
substantial amount at that maating bacausa of that maating. 

2 You uorkad out a program, did you not. uhara 
Colonal Korth would urita lattars to your contributors in 
substanca thanking tham for contributions? 

ft Right. 

2 nachanically how was that dona? Was that dona 
through Mr. Hillar? 

A Yas. From what Z undaxstand. baoausa I hava navar 
askad hia spaciilcally what ha did aftarwards. I know 
ganarally. Tha Whita Housa would wait until thara wara a 
cartain numbar of paopla to that and thay would say--thay 
told Rich don't sand us ona or two nanas . Wait for a month 
or two or thraa until you hava a big list and you will sand 
tha list to us at ona tiaa and ii Colonal Kotth can. ha will 
urita a thank you lattar. Somatiaas ha was abla to writa 
within tha waak. Somatimas tha lattars wara two or thraa 
months lata. 

fi Who draftad thosa lattara? 

A I don't know. 

2 I taka it you did not? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



109 



NAME: 
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HIR2m4000 ll^'V?, 81X^11 ItAJ P*GI 108 

A No 

2 You don't know uh«th*r ot not Mr. nill«r did? 

A I don't know. 

2 Uas It a 9*naxal piactica that you uould zacaiva 
copias of tha lattaxs? 

A It was a ganaral goal that wa do that. Ua didn't. 

2 You zecaivad copias oi a nunbat of than? 

A I think two oz thraa clumps in a yaar oz so. yas. 
but not lika you ara intiitating lika'I dasizad. It wasn't 
at all systamatic oz nathodical. 

2 Tha onas that you did zacaiva> waza thay sant to 
you by tha Uhita Housa? Ot did you obtain than, foz 
axampla, izon Hz. Hillaz? 

A Uall> I know Z obtainad at laast on* packat fzom 
Rich. Thay gava than to ma . I think Z pickad up a packat 
ona tina izom Fawn whan Z was ovaz thara. Thay aza just 
Xazoxas oi tha lattazs. 

2 By Fawn, aza you zaiatzing to Fawn Hall? 

A Yas. 

fi Is sha tha ona you had zaquattad giva you copias of 
tha lattais? 

A Yas. 

B And you suceaadad in getting soma and you had not 
succaadad in gatting othazs? 

A Right. Somatimas it was important to tham. 




S! 




no 



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HIR2414000 III *llJ8_i1l\J^ ji §L,U P»GE '09 
Sometimes it was eminently forgettable to them. 

2 So to summarize, the practice at these briefings is 
that Colonel North would make a presentation of the 
situation in Nicaragua. 

A A slide show. 

S A slide show. Following that you would meet with 
your contributors and request contributions-- 

A For our programs. 

2 --for your programs. Following that you would 
report to Colonel North significant contributions that had 
come from your supporters and following that, there would be 
a procedure whereby Colonel North would send thank you 
letters to your contributors, is that correct? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Ill 



NAHE ■■ 
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PAGE no 



HIR2UU000 
RPTS DOTSON 
DCHN PARKER 

THE WITNESS: That's all trua . 
BY MR. FRYMAHi 

e Mr. ChannaU, in tha privata maatings that Colonal 
North had with cartain of your contributors, did thara coma 
a tima m soma oi thosa maatings uhara thara was a 
discussion by Colonal North oi particular waapons needs of 
the resistance fighters in Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

2 How did that subject first coma up in any of thosa 
meetings to your understanding? 

A I never thought about how it cam* up. I raally--tha 
first ti"* ^f^ happened. I really think ha just moved into 
It. rv ali e naiyy . about tha needs of tha freedom fighters in 
general . 

2 Had you asked Colonal North to develop lists of 
items needed by tha resistance fighters that totaled cartain 
amounts of money to present to certain of your contributors? 

A That happened one time. I didn't ask for it. but 
someone on my staff asked fox it. 

2 Hho was the contributor? 

A That was a contributor. Bunker Hunt. 

2 Who was the person on your staff who asked for it? 

A Conrad. 






112 



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HIR2UU0O0 WS -Ji^gii-^ n^ti^SS ii«M PAGE 111 

2 What was tha anount of money? 

A I think it was *5 mxilion if my m«mory is right. 

e Had you suggested that anount oi money to Mr. 
Conrad as a possible contribution by Mr. Hunt? 

A Uell, that was a fantasy. I know he wouldn't give 
anything like that, but I had based that figure, frankly, on 
the fact that I had recently found out he had given «10 
million to the Dallas Museum of Art. What that has to do 
with what he would give for Nicaragua was in my own head. I 
had no idea. I figured maybe he could be persuaded to give 
a ma^or grant. 

Although, as you well know, no one ever gave what 
they were asked to give, and we knew that. 

2 But *5 million was an objective? 

A Was the budget, yes. 

2 Did you ask Mr. Conrad to relay this objective to 
Colonel Korth? 

A Yes. I asked him to work out a budget with Ollie. 

2 What do you mean by work out a budget? 

A Well, I had no idea what Colonel Korth might think 
the freedom fighters needed for «5 million and how much each 
itea the freedom fighters needed would add up to «5.000. 

a rive million dollars? 

A rive million dollars. And that Is why he did it. 

2 So In response to this request by you relayed 



UNCLASSIRE 



113 



D 



HAFIE : 
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HIR2'4U000 PAGE 1 1 2 

thiough Mr. Conrad, did Colonel Kotth coma back with a «S 
million budgat to present to Mr. Hunt? 
A Yes. he did. 

2 Was this given to you in writing? 
A No . 

2 Hou was it given to you? 
A It never was. 
2 How as it presented? 
A You mean at the Hunt dinner? 
2 Was it presented directly to He. Hunt for the first 



time ? 



Yes 



2 You had not seen that before the presentation to 
Mr. Hunt? 

A Ho. Hor did I know anything on it. I just knew 
Ollia was going to bring the budget with him. that he had 
done that task. 

2 So the steps were the following. You set «S 
million as a fund-raising objective. 

A Right. 

fi As a contribution from He. Huftt. You left it up to 
Colonel MoEth to develop a list of specific items that 
totaled that amount. 

A That is coEEect. 

2 You arranged a dinnex meeting with He. Hunt to 



m^mm 



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HIR244000 p»GE 113 

present this, ' 'budget. •' Is that correct? 

A That IS correct. 

2 Is it correct that this neeting was held in Dallas? 

A Yes. 

2 I believe you indicated earlier that the date of 
the meeting was September 10 or 11, 1985? 

A Yes. 

2 And the persons attending the dinner were you, Mr. 
Hunt, Colonel North. Did Hr . Conrad also attend? 

A Yes. 

2 Mas anyone else present? 

A No. 

2 At this dinner meeting, did Colonel North present 
the budget or list oi items that totaled «5 million? 

A Yes. 

2 How did he do this? 

A We sat around a circular table and he sat to Bunker 
Hunt's left and he was talking to Bunker about Latin 
American politics and what the ireedoa fighters were doing, 
and then he pulled out this list that he had. and as we ate 
dinner, Z think we went straight down the list, although I 
was across from him and never saw the list. Like I can't 
read your writing. I couldn't read his either. And as we 
had dinner, he went over either all oi the Items on the list 
or various items on the list, saying why these items were 



uNWSsra 



115 



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HIR2UU000 "'^'ij A^-^'Ht- " 
chosen and what th« fittadon fightats would do uith it and 



»»GE im 



saying that* was a naad tha iraadon fightais to attain these 
things, this would help li tha iraadom fightais could gat 
these things. This would halp tha fiaadom iightais in their 
s truggle . 

2 Whan you lookad ovat tha tabla and saw tha list, 
could you tall ii it was a typa-writtan list or a hand- 
written list? 

A I tacollact that it was a hand-writtan list. 

2 And you recall Colonel Korth describing items on 
the list to Hr. Hunt? 

A Yes. 

2 What items do you xaeall? 

A Ha talked about various types of ammunition, which 
I can't remember, ammunition. Ha talked about three 
different types of airplanes, tha Haula aircraft, which he 
brought with him a brochure of. a Oahaviland aircraft. X 
can't remember what that maant. and then something else. 
These aircraft were all vary good at flying low and slow and 
dropping supplies. 

Ha talked about food and tha regular food and 
madlcal supplies and all types of humanitarian 
things — madlolna. and he talked about. I think, it was a 
certain type of grenade launcher. I have foxgolSeven a few 
of the things. Those war* outstanding. 



I 






'^ 



116 



NAME 
2782 
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HIR21414000 V' "-^ • ■■'^•'^ ■ "^■' ' PAGE 115 

2 Prior to this dinnar, had Colon«l Korth discussed 
uith you what itaras would be on the list? 

A Mo. 

S Ware you surprised that the list included military 
equipment? 

A No. 

fi Why not? 

A Because he had already talked about nilitary 
equipment to Ellen Garwood in August. This was two weeks, a 
little bit more than two weeks before we were in Texas. 
Eighteen days . 

C That was the meeting at the White House? 

A Yes. 

fi What items oi military equipment had he discussed 
uith Mrs. Garwood in August? 

A He had talked about planes to her. 

2 The same three types oi planes? 

A Ko. X just think it was the Haule aircraft. 

2 Anything other than planes? 

A Yes . He may have mentioned a certain type oi 
missile. And again, I get confused with these types of 
missiles . 

2 In the conversation with Hrs . Garwood, had he 
specified any dollar amount needed for the different items 
that he referred to? 



mmm 



117 



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'5 5*1 !\^^IF1F[\ 

A Ih« piica on th«sa plan«s was *60,000. and I think 
th«se missilas wecA 20,000 aach, 18 oi 20,000 aach. 

2 And he had raantionad thosa pricas in tha August 
1985 meating uxth Mrs. Garwood? 

A I think so. I am not sura, but I think so. I hava 
known thesa things for so long, I an not axactly sura whan 
ha said it. But I think that is ona oi tha timas ha said 
it. I just hava to say I am not sura, but I think so, 
bacausa sha subsaquantly mada out a chack and sha would hava 
known what for baiora sha did it. 

2 Sha mada out a chack aftar tha August maating? 

A Yas. 

fi And it was your undarstandlng that tha chack was 
for ona of tha waapons itams that ha had raiarrad to in that 
maating ? 

A Right. 

2 And was that ona oi tha sums oi monay that you 
relayad to Ifr . tlillar's account in tha nama oi IBC? 

A Yas. Latar. And that would hava baan part oi what 
wa would hava givan. 

e Had you baan awara that Colonal North was going to 
discuss waapons with Hrs . Garwood in advanca oi Lis maating 
with har in August oi 1985? 

A I don't racall that. I don't raoall that. 

2 So whan you mat with Hi. Hunt in Dallas in 



yNCUSSfflED 



118 



NAnr: 

2832 
2833 
283U 
2835 
2836 
2837 
2838 
2839 
28>40 
28m 
28U2 
2813 

28U5 
28U6 
28t«7 
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28>«9 
2850 
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2852 
2853 
285U 
2855 
2856 



HIR2UU000 UfiaWLht^^Usa iLsL^ PAGE 117 
'^sptembftt of 1985. thftza had b««n the prioc discussion oi 
uaapons with Mrs. Gazuood. Had that* baan pzior discussions 
oi waapons by Colonal Nozth with any oi youz othaz 
contributors othar than Mrs. Garwood? 
A No. 
2 So tha discussion with Hr . Hunt was tha sacond 



tima-- 

k That's right. 

2 --you mantlonad uaapons. at laast In your pzasanca? 

A That's right. In ay pzasanca. that Is tight. 

2 And in tha aaatlng with Hz. Hurt, Colonal Korth 
raviawad aach oi tha typas oi waapons that you hava 
dascribad, and ha Indioatad a dollar aaount with raspaot to 
aach typa oi waapon, and ha Indlcatad that thara was a naad 
by tha rasistanca iightars ior that typa oi waaponi is that 
correct? 

A Yas. 

2 Did ha ask Hz. Hunt to contzlbuta iunds ior thosa 
waapons? 

A Mo. 

fi Do you know why ha did not? 

A Hall, ha had aada a policy oi saying to 
paopla. ''I can't, as a Fadazal oiiiolal, I aa bazzad izoa 
asking ioz aonay. I can't do that.'* And that's why ha 
didn't. 




ffl.i?S!Fe 



119 



NAHE: 
2857 
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286 1 
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287 1 
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28714 
2875 
2876 
2877 
2878 
2879 
2880 
2881 



2 YoJrsay h« had mad« a policy of saying that. I 
balievs you hava indicatad that pzior to tha maating with 
Me . Hunt in Saptarabet you had saan Colonal Kotth at tha Juna 
1985 briaiing and tha Jun* 1985 privata bziaiing for Mrs. 
Heuington, and tha August 1985 privata btiafing for Mt*. 
Garwood and thosa wara tha only occasions othar than your 
dinner with him on July 9. 

A Right. 

fi Now, had ha on thosa occasions indicated that ha 
had a policy as a Fadaral oiflclal that ha could not ask for 
monay ? 

A Yas . And I knaw that uhan ua uara at Bunkaz's, and 
than ha said it. and ha had said it savaral timas bafoza. 

fi Did ha say that spaeliloally uhan you uara maating 
with Hr. Hunt? 

A Yas, ha said it than. And ha said it with Elian 
Garwood . 

fi Did ha say it with Mrs. KsMlngton? 

A Thara was no solicitation oi Hzt. Nawington. 

2 Did ha say it in tha group briaiing in Juna? 

A No. But ha did mention that fact at tha dinner on 
tha ninath oi July. Oi course ha couldn't ask for 
money — wouldn't ask for monay beoausa ha was a Federal 
official. I was aware of thlsi that ha couldn't and 
wouldn't before we went to Dallas. 



iwsm 



120 



HAnr : 

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HIR2U4000 

2 What was your tasponsa whan ha said this to you at 
tha dinnar on July 9? 

A Uall> I assunad that ha was tailing na tha ttuth. 
Ha couldn't bacausa thata was sona law that fadaial 
officials can't ask fot monay foz, you know, can't support 
this typa of thing by asking for monay, so X figurad that's 
probably right. 

2 Did you say in substanca that that did not prasant 
a problam bacausa you would ba asking for tha funds? 

A Did I tall hin that? 

2 Yas. In substanca. 

A Yas, I an sura of that. Yas. But ha also had 
anothar practica, which was to say to paopla, *'I can't ask 
for monay bacausa I am a Fadaral ofilclal. If you want to 
halp, you should giva to KEPL or giva to Spitz' 
organization. ' ' 

2 And that in substanca is what ha said to Hr . Hunt-- 

A Yas. 

2 --at tha dinnar in Dallas. 

A That was just a normal coaaant many tiaas. 

2 Hhat did Colonal North do with tha list that ha 
usad during tha discussion with Hr . Hunt at this dinnar wa 
hava baan discussing? 

A Ha just took it hoaa with hla, I guass. 

2 Put it back in his pockat? 



«l^s»ll 



121 



NAME: 
2907 
2908 
2909 
29 10 
29 1 1 
29 12 
2913 
29 m 
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HIR214U000 



-.. yNCUSSIFlED •■ 



GE 120 



a At th« dinner, after he reviewed the list with Hr . 
Hunt and he made the statement that he could not ask for 
funds himself, but contributions could be made to NEPL. or 
words in substance to that effect-- 

A Right. 

2 --what happened next? 

A He absented himself from the room. He left, and — 

fi Had that been pre-azranged with you? 

A Yes . yes . 

Q How had you done that? Is that something you had 
discussed on the plane ride? 

A I didn't fly with hi*. I was already in Dallas, 
you see. Z don't exactly know, but he Knew to do that. I 
don't know how. I couldn't reaenber it, but anyway, then I 
asked, I said to Bunker, ''Ollle has said we need to support 
the freedom fighters in this way, this amount of money. 
Mould you care to make a contribution in helping anybody ? ' ' 
And he said he would think about it and get back to us. And 
then he and I walked out of the zooa together. And-- 

fi You and Hr . Hunt? 

A Yes. And then Conrad, because this was late. 
relatively late at night, and ii you know Dallas after 8 
o'clock there is no traffic in town. D«Ti sald^had better 
go downstairs and get a cab to go back to the airport 



mmm 



122 



NAHE- 
2932 
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UlUSSiFitD . 



HiR2'4>4000 Illie^.iS MilalSa IL.LI page 121 
bacausa it is going to taka a whil* to g«t on« bacausa thata 
is no ona downtown anymoce. 

So he laft himsali and want downstairs and tziad to 
flag a cab. V» uaza up UO stoiias. That's why ha laft to 
get transportation for us back to tha airport. 

2 Did you and Mr. Hunt and Colonal Korth hava a 
furthar conversation together that evening? 

A Yes. We went out and lounged. whatever--there were 
some banquettes around the wall. They sat and talked awhile 
and discussed the freedom fighters and Latin America 
politics and lots of people in Latin America they mutually 
knew. I kept walking back and forth to the window trying to 
look down to see if I could see Dan Conrad with the cab, 
because I am not even sure he could get back in the building 
to come up and get us as soon as I saw a cab, because we 
were anxious for Ollie to get back to the airport and fly 
back to Washington. 

This was done aitet hours, taking his free time to 
do it. I was watching constantly, and I was just hearing 
snippets oi the conversation. That's what I did. 

fi Are you aware if there was any further conversation 
oi the weapons needs and youx request ior a oontributlon by 
Hx. Hunt? 

A I don't--I didn't hear that li there was. 

fi Did you talk to Colonel North further about this on 



fi 



D 



123 



29S7 

2958 

2959 

2960 

296 1 

2962 

2963 

296^ 

2965 

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iiClliSSiFlEO .... 



HIR2UU0O0 ll<'«3,3 &l.'%.'%l| ||_|J PAGE 122 
youi way back to the airport? 
A Ko. 

2 Did you tall him you had mada a raquast oi Hz. 
Hunt? 

A Oh, yas . 

fi What was his rasponsa? 

A Wall, I told hin. I simply said I hava askad for «S 
million from Bunkar. I am sura ha wasn't going to giva it. 
but ha did saam intarastad to halp and ha said ha would gat 
back to ma naxt waak with his daoislon. 

e Did you ask for «5 million? 

A That's what tha budgat was. I didn't say to 
Bunkar, ''0111a has a «S million budgat. Hhy don't you glva 
lass.*' I just askad him 1£ ha would Ilka to halp. thay 
naadad tha whola thing, and — oi£ tha racozd. 
[Discussion off tha racozd. 1 
HR. FLYKN: Raad back tha last answaz. 
[Hhazaupon. tha last quastlon was raad back by tha 
raportaz . 1 

THZ HITNXSSi So ha said ha would think about It. 
Z said to 0111a. ha said ha would think about It. Ha was 
Intazastad In tha aizplanas. and ha will gat back with us 
naxt waak. 



BY HI. FRYKAN' 
Q What was Colonal Mozth's rasponsa? 



WlASSffl 



124 



NAME : 
2982 
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298U 
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2987 
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2990 
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2997 
2998 
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3000 
3001 
3002 
3003 
300<4 
3005 
3006 



mmm ,., 



HIR2"4U000 Ujg 1 W*r.» iv-- - - l-jiy- PAGE 123 

A I don't iemamb*r that ^ had any rasponsa. If I may 
say, I think ha fait that ha hadn't pcasantad this vacy 
wall. 

2 Did ha say anything to you that indicated that? 

A No. I just--Bunkax saanad distractad during that 
entixa evaning. and Ollia spoka itany tinas as if ha was 
trying to captura Bunkar's attantion, and I just think ha 
fait that ha hadn't mada his casa vary wall. 

fi Did Colonal North fly to Dallas by privata plana 
for that trip? 

A Yas. ha did. 

2 Did NEPL or ona of youz organizations pay for tha 
flight? 

A 

2 

A 

fi 

A 

2 

A 



Yas, NEPt paid for it. 

Do you know how much that oost? 

I guass it was 48,000 or 49,000. 

Did anyona alsa ooaa with Colonal North? 

No. 

Did anyona fly back with hla? 

Ko . Saa, tha original goal was to hava him spand 
tha night and ba abla to spaak at tha Slnglaub confaranca 
tha naxt morning < hava him thara and ba abla to spaak aarly, 
and ua hopad wa could gat him to do that, and just at tha 
vary and ha said, ''I can't stay. I hava to fly back.'' U^ 
uara going to hava Elian Garwood Introduoa him. It just 



imfflP 



125 



NAME- HIR2UU000 



ONCLASEIFiff 



PAGE 12(4 



3007 

3008 

3009 

30 10 

30 1 1 

3012 

30 1 3 

30 14 

301S 

30 16 

30 17 

3018 

30 19 

3020 

3021 

3022 

3023 

30214 

3025 

3026 

3027 

3028 

3029 

3030 

3031 



didn't work out. 

fi Has tha intttntion always NEPL would pay £oi th« 
p lane ? 

A Yas . 

2 You indicatad aatliaz ha also mat with Mis. Garwood 
at tha aiipoEt? 

A Yas, ha did. 

2 What was discussad with tits. Garwood? 

k Ha discussad--! was not thara with than vary long. 
I was ]ust thara for part of tha naating. And I frankly 
can't ramambar pracisaly what ha nantionad. I think at that 
tima ha was talking also about airplanas a lot. And sha 
subsaquantly gava, latar on to halp purchasa a snail Haula 
aircraft, bacausa of tha convarsatlon with his. 

C Did Hr . Hunt maka a contribution following this 
dinner? 

A A waak or so latar wa did gat. mada out to NEPL two 
chacks for «270,000 aach from a law firs that Bunkar has 
sonathing to do with. And with ona of tha chacks was loan 
to MEPL for «270,000. which w« latar ratuxnad bacausa X 
wasn't — I didn't lika baing loanad monay. I didn't think 
that was right. I had no idaa whathar HEPL would avar hava 
tha monay to rapay it. And I was wary unaasy. I just 
didn't lika it at all. so I Just sant it back. 

HR. FLYNN: What wara tha figuras again? 



UNGIASSIRED 



126 



HXnZ- HIR2UI4000 
3032 
3033 
303U 
3035 
3036 
3037 
3038 
3039 
30U0 
30U1 
30142 



UNOLASSIF! 



PAGE 125 



MR. OLIVER: 



Two thirty-savan, fiv*. 



THE WITNESS: Two thirty s«v«n-fiv«. I got all th« 
numbers right, ^^ff—sy^'i'^jfDD 
BY HR. FRYHAM: 

2 And you r«turn*d th« loan. Uas thara a further 
contribution irora Mr. Hunt? 

A You mean at that tina? Hany months later. 

fi Yas. following your return, following your return 
of the funds in '86. 

A In 1986, he sent alnost the same amount. I think, 
about four months later, five months later. 



WUSSWEB 



127 



NAHE ■■ 
30(43 
30(4U 
SOUS 
30M6 
3047 
30(48 
30U9 
3050 
3051 
3052 
3053 
305(4 
3055 
3056 
3057 
3058 
3059 
3060 
3061 
3062 
3063 
306(4 
3065 
3066 
3067 



mmmm 



PAGE 126 



HIR2(4(4000 
RPTS MCGINN 
DCHN SPRADLING 
( (4; 00 p.m. 1 



2 Did Colon«l North discuss specific weapons na*ds 
uith othar of your contributors in addition to Hrs . Garwood 
and Hr . Hunt? 

A At tha maating, tha small maatlng with Hrs. 
Christian and Hr . Ramsay and Mrs. Adamklawlcz, ha discussad 
tha naad ior missilas for tha iraadom iightars. 

2 That was tha maating in Oetobar or Novambax? 

A Right. 

fi That was in tha old Kxacutiva Ofiica Building? 

A Right. 

2 Did ha discuss tha cost of thasa missilas? 

A Ha mantionad tha cost. 

2 And is that tha «20,000? 

A Again, that's tha 18 oz 20 thousand, right. 

S And ha dascribad tha naad of tha raslttanea for 
thasa missilas? 

A Yas . 

e Has that in connactlon with — 

A Tha Hind halicoptars waza avidantly coming on lina 
about this tlma. and this Mas raally putting tha fraadom 
fightars in tha vary dafanslva postura and thasa missilas 



UNC 



128 



NAME: 
3068 
3069 
3070 
307 1 
3072 
3073 
3074 
3075 
3076 
3077 
3078 
3079 
3080 
3081 
3082 
3083 
308t< 
3085 

. 3086 
3087 
3088 
3089 
3090 
3091 
3092 



HIR214U000 



IWSSIHM 



PAGE 127 



would be abla to counteract that ii the izeedoa fightazs 
knew how to use them. 

e Did he mention any total dollar amount that was 
needed for these missiles? 

A Hell, It was--I forget what it was. It was like--I 
don't think he did then, but eventually it became like--for a 
certain type of missile it was a million two for a whole set 
and I'm not sure he mentioned that at that time. I did 
eventually come to learn that for a million two you could 
get a certain number of missiles and that that's hoH--I 
learned that they ware to be bought like that. 

2 But you don't believe that discussion occuzxed at 
this meeting? 

A I don't recall that, no. Nobody at this meeting 
would have the financial power to scratch the surface for 
that anyway. But that may ba irrelevant. 

e Did he make a statement at this meeting similar to 
the other statements that you have described to the effect 
that he had a policy as a federal official that he could not 
ask for contributions, but if thay wanted to give money, 
they could give it to the Channell ozganlzatlon? 

A Yes. sir. 

e Did any of thasa Individuals, that is Hz. Kaiisey. 
Mrs. Christian or Dr. Adaaklawloa. make a contribution 
following this meeting? 




;Lr.''- ■"* 



■..i »■ 



129 



NAME: 
3093 
30914 
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3096 
3097 
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3105 
3106 
3107 
3108 
3109 
31 10 
31 1 1 
3112 
3113 
31 1>4 
3115 
3116 
31 17 



UNCUSSiFitO ,„ 



HIR2i*i4000 IJI IWfc. ! i^ ^ •■ p»G£ 128 

A Dr. Adankiewicz did •vsntually and Mrs. Christian 
did Avantually' 

S Was It your understanding that thos* contributions 
wera to ba usad ior tha purchase oi these missiles that 
Colonel Korth had described? 

A Yes. The goal was to be able to--they didn't make a 
big contribution so if you put their contributions together. 
you could have bought a missile. 

2 Did you report these contributions to Colonel 



I don't recall that I did. 

Did you report to him the contribution from Hr . 



Korth? 

A 

fi 
Hunt? 

A When it came or right after It o«me> yes, ue did. 

fi And did you also report to him the contribution 
that you described from Mrs. GarMOod following her August 
meeting with Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

2 Your answer Is yes? 

A Yes. 

fi Here there any other meetings between Colonel Korth 
and your contributors In the fell of 1985 where he discussed 
weapons needs of the resistance fighters? 

Patricia Beck from Texas, and discussed missiles with her. 




694 0-88-6 



130 



NAHE : 
31 18 
3119 
3120 
312 1 
3122 
3123 
31214 
3125 
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3130 
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31141 

3m2 



HIR24UO0O 



iiHWssm 



PAGE 129 



fi Uh«i« was that raaAting? 

A In th« UhitA Hous*. 

2 I taka It you ucta pt*s*nt? 

A y«s . 

Q Uho «ls« was pr*s*nt? 

A No on* . 

fi Has that discussion similar to th* pE«s*ntation 
that ha had mada to He. Raasay and tha othars? 

A Thasa discussions about aissilas laally waxa kayad 
by tha introduction oi tha Hind halicoptars. 

Q And did ha nantion tha cost oi approxinataly 
S20,000 a nissila? 

A X don't racall that ha did. Sha had givan a 
contribution or pladgad a contribution tha night bafora. and 
I had mantionad that to him, that sha was alraady going to 
ba giving and I don't racall him tailing har how much thasa 
cost . 

Q Wall, what did you undarstand was his objactiva in 
mantioning thasa missilas? 

A I uantad har to hava — apaeliloally Mrs. Back — I 
uantad har to hava a privata maating with him to gat to know 
him. That was tha purposa for har and sha had alraady said 
that sha would giva and ha just brlaiad har mora — talkad in 
much mora datail about how usaiul and how suceassful thasa 
missilas could ba against tha Hind halicoptars, how 



liWSSW 



131 



NAME : 
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3145 
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HIR244000 



ifissff 



PAGE 130 



inpoitant this was for th« fiaadom iightaxs. 

2 Did you understand ha was axplaining to har that 
her contribution would be used to puzchasa thasa missiles? 

k She had given for nissila purchases. 

S How do you know that? 

A Because she had been asked ioz missile money the 
night before. 

fi By whom? 

A By rtr. Smith. Cliff Smith. And so she had 
alraady-'he was briefing her in detail on the usefulness of 
those missiles . 

2 Hhera had the meeting the night before occurred? 

A Hell, Hr. Smith had talked to hez in the dining 
zoom or in the lobby of the Hay-Adama Hotel. I'm not 
exactly sure where but in the Hay- 

Adans Hotel in a public room. That's where we were having 
our dinner. 

2 Was this in connection with one of the group 
meetings? 

A Right. 

ft And I believe you mentioned there was one in 

Octobez and one in Hovembez. Do you know which this was? 

A- 
A I'm going to have to ask AlaKl to check the names. 

^ 

I always gat these confused. Z don't want to make a 

mistake . 




.flLoaiWi^*" » 



132 



HAME : 
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3 17 1 
3 172 
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3183 
31814 
3185 
3186 
3187 
3188 
3189 
3190 
3191 
3192 



ullyLHd^s^ iLU "«= 131 



HIR2UU000 

2 Just relying on your racollaction, it was on* of 
th« fall 1985-- 

X On* of th* two, right. 

S And during th* m**ting in th* *v*ning your 
associate. Cliff Smith, had had a privat* discussion with 
Mrs. Beck about th* n**d for th*s* missil*s to rasist th* 
Hind h*licopters. 

A Right. 

fi And h* had spok*n to h*r about th* cost of th* 
missiles being approximately 420,000 a pl*c*. 

A Y*s. 

e And sh* had indicatad sh* would mak* a contribution 
to purchas* missllas. 

A Y*S. 

S Is that corract? 

A W*ll, I'm not sur* it waa mlssllas but sh* did say 
to him--h* r*lat*d to m*--sh* said sh* would giv* «i40,000. 

fi Hhlch you und*rstand. 

A I assuB*d that waa toward a Biaall* budg*t. 

fi To buy in *ss*nc* two Biaallaa? 

A Y*a, that's right. 

fi And th*n you w*r* abl* to azzanga a privat* m**ting 
with h*z th* following day with Colonal Korth? 

A Exactly. 

a Has that m**ting with Colonal Motth s*t up aftar 






;^ii »*-" 



133 



NAME ■■ 
3193 
31914 
3 195 
3 196 
3197 
3198 
3199 
3300 
3201 
3202 
3203 
320U 
3205 
3206 
3207 
3208 
3209 
3210 
321 1 
3212 
3213 
321U 
3215 
3216 
3217 



HIR2UI4000 



mu 






PAGE 132 



she had nada tha comnitnant to Di . Snith to contiibuta 
«<40,000 ioz mssilas? 

A Yas. 

2 And at tha naating with Colonal Nocth tha naMt day, 
he mada a piasantation about tha impottanca oi missilas to 
the cesistanca. 

A Exactly. 

S Do you know ii ha had baan iniormad in advanca oi 
that maating about har contribution oi CUO.OOO to acquita 
two nissilas? 

A X hava a sansa that ha was. X didn't do it but 
Cliif night hava baan abla to call his. But X don't know. 
X didn't. X just had a sansa that ha was. Ha didn't 
mention it to aa . 

fi Do you know how tha maating with him was sat up for 
the next day? 

A Wa arranged it through tha oiiiee. his office. 

S Sid you do that or did Hi. Smith do that? 

A X don't think X did that. X think someone else did 
it, aithar one of our secretaries or Cliff. X can't 
remember being on the phone doing that. X vary rarely would 
do that anyway. 

a Hould it be unusual in youi view for Hr . Smith to 
speak directly with Colonel North about a private briefing 
for a contributor? 




134 



Hknz 
3218 
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322S 
3226 
3227 
3228 
3229 
3230 
3231 
3232 
3233 
323U 
323S 
3236 
3237 
3238 
3239 
32<40 
32U1 
32tt2 



HIR2'4M000 llll'jLn^'''-'''^ ^^ ''*°^ '^^ 

X Yes. But it happcnad. 

2 Th«ta ueta occasions whaxa rtx . Smith had thosa 
conversations? 

k Yas . But it was not noznal. 

2 What othar conttibutOES , to youE knouladga, had 
PEivata discussions with Colonal NoEth in 198S about 
weapons ? 

A Wall, wa had a iallou hara izom CalifoEnia who did 
not 9iva--was not intaEastad at all. His nana was FaEguson. 
Ollia mat with him and talKad to him about — I think it was 
also missiles. Ha listened very caxaiully and said yas. I 
hope they get them and something Ilka that, but he didn't 
give anything. And then theEe Mas — 

2 Has this CaEoy FaEguson? 

A No . He is fEom Dallas. This iellow was fEom 
Calif OEnia. 

And than these was a meeting with Bill O'Keil in 
which milltaxy equipment was also bEought up. but he wasn't 
inteEested in that eithex, and didn't give anything ioE it. 
He gave money but it wasn't iot — it had nothing to do with 
that. As you see. we had sevexal contxlbutoES who wese veEy 
intexested in oux pxogxam, just oux pxogxam. and they liked 
the attention oi Ollie. but It just didn't wash with them. 
ioE whatavex xeason. 

2 Hhen you say just oux pxogxam. what axe you 



wm\ 



c^qy 



135 



HAHE ■ 
32U3 
32UU 
32U5 
32U6 
32U7 
32U8 
3249 
32S0 
32S1 
3252 
3253 
325U 
3255 
3256 
3257 
3258 
3259 
3260 
3261 
3262 
3263 
326>4 
3265 
3266 
3267 



HIR2i4yOOO 




PAGE 1314 



k I naan if Ollia would talk about mllltaiy •quipraent 
or humanitarian aid for tha fraedon fightars thasa paopla 
might not ba tuznad on by that. Thay uara turnad on by our 
program, our talavision for aducation and than latar thay 
were turnad on by tha lobbying affotts and thay uara not 
mtarastad in giving--thay wantad thair nonay to stay here 
and ba used for either an educational purpose or a lobbying 
purpose, and we had several contributors that gave a lot of 
money for that. Then we had some contributors that gave 
because of Ollie as wall as giving money directly foe ouz 
program also. 

So sometimes I have to separate that. Hhen you are 
saying did he asK for money, because the people--some of the 
people we talked to, it just didn't jell or they just didn't 
care, it left ay mind because they didn't give to that at 
all. 

Q What other eontributozs . other than the ones you 
have identified, did Colonel North discuss weapons with in 

A He talked to the iTartW*- but that was not for 
weapons. That was discussing radios. They have, as you 
Know, a hoae in Honduras. He talked to thea about the need 
to acquire radios for the freedom fighters to communicate 
with them. But there were no weapons. I think — you may hav« 






136 



NAME: 
3268 
3269 
3270 
3271 
3272 
3273 
327U 
327S 
3276 
3277 
3278 
3279 
3280 
3281 
3282 
3283 
328M 
328S 
3286 
3287 
3288 
3289 
3290 
3291 
3292 



HIR2UU000 pflWi^l^U-lH^ ^^^ ""»" '35 
soma other names. I would be glad to entertain them. 

2 Did he ever speak with firs. Newington about 
weapons? 

A In December--ei.ther November or December we had a 
meeting at the Hay-Adams Hotel where it's my recollection--! 
wasn't sitting with them the whole time but he had brought a 
notebook with him and he discussed either weapons and/or 
airplanes with her. And I think he discussed missiles with 
her but I am not sure. But Z do not. he discussed airplanes 
with her because I was there for that. But I haven't been 
able to remember if there were other things. 

S Hhat type oi planes? 

A He had these Xeroxes oi these three types oi 
planes, these slow planes where the backs opened up and you 
could deliver things. You oould drop things out at very 
slow speed and they could parachute into the jungle with, 
you know — not get torn up and the planes were evidently 
rather siuiet. He asked about these, discussed these a lot. 
This was something that really — evidently they needed a lot 
oi these. Z know he actually at one tiae said we had been 
the cause ior purchasing seven, eight oi these small planes 
and at least one oi the larger planes at one time. But this 
was something that he discussed ixe^uently with people. 

fi Had there been any discussion with Hr . Hiller in 
advance oi this meeting with Itxs . Nawlngten about seeking a 



unmm 



ytULij 



137 



HAME : 
3293 
329<« 
3295 
3296 
3297 
3298 
3299 
3300 
3301 
3302 
3303 
3304 
3305 
3306 
3307 
3308 
3309 
3310 
331 1 
3312 
3313 
331U 
3315 
3316 
3317 






HIR2U14000 V7B lV)ta» "«'■-'- - pxGE 136 

specific dollar contzibution from har? 

A I ren«nb«r doing that and I don't know uh«thar I 
said w« should try to hav« a projact whar* u* can raisa a 
half million or a million dollars, but I ramambar discussing 
the need to have a budget or a projact to discuss with her. 
I can't remember the amount but I remember doing that 
because Ollie brought with him when he came to see her 
this--it wasn't a notebook. Sort of like a picture album 
with--he sat beside her and showed her these things and 
talked about the different items with her and as I said, X 
wasn't close enough. I was on the phone part of the time so 
I didn't pick it all up. but I had a discussion with Rich 
sometime before she got there. It couldn't have happened 
otherwise . 

fi Was this meeting in her room at the Hay-Adams? 

A Yes. yes. 

2 And Mrs. Kewington was present. Colonel Korth was 
present. You were present. Has Hr . Hlller present also? 

A Yes. 

Q Has anyone else present? 

A Z don't recall that anybody else was there. 

S And there was some sort of visual presentation to 
hex at this meeting. 

A Z guest you mean the picture albua. 

fi In the nature of picture albums oz drawings or 





138 



NAME: 
3318 
3319 
3320 
332 1 
3322 
3323 
332U 
3325 
3326 
3327 
3328 
3329 
3330 
3331 
3332 
3333 
3334 
3335 
3336 
3337 
3338 
3339 
33140 
3341 
33(42 






HIRaUUOOO 
something . 

A y«s. that's right. 

2 And you recall a discussion of the need for 
airplanes and you believe there nay have been a discussion 
of the need for nissiles as well. 

A That's right. I'm not sure. I don't know why I 
think that, but I thought there was. 

e Was a specific dollar contribution asked of her 
during this meeting? 

A I don't remember that. I asked her myself for a 
contribution but it was not — it was just part of--I don't knc 
how I did that. I think I asked her for like a million one 
or a million two or a million three, but it wasn't fox one 
thing. But I asked her and she could not give it all and 
she subsequently sent us several cheeks. 

2 Did she give that amount over a period of time? 

A Yes, but there were other things that intervened 
there. I'm not sure — I have never credited that meeting to 
more than two of the checks that came in. There were other 
things that intervened that we had to do. 

a Old you consider that — 

A But I asked for the money myself. 

fi Did you consider that she made oontxlbutlons 
following that meeting for the purpose oi purchasing 
nissiles or acquiring airplanes? 




:f /!Q^'0 



^:fr'o\ 



139 



NAME: HIR24U000 



yNElASSfiED , 



AGE 138 



3343 

3344 

3345 

3346 

3347 

3348 

3349 

3350 

3351 

33S2 

3353 

3354 

3355 

3356 

3357 

3358 

3359 

3360 

3361 

3362 

3363 

3364 

3365 

3366 

3367 



A I think at l«ast fouz oc fiv* hundzad thousand of 
the mon«y she gave was ioz what Ollie had talked about. 
This was at a tine when ue were asking hez ioc support noney 
for out educational program and she gave to that. The 
checks uere very close and we were giving her the total 
budget ior that and she was giving just some large checks 
ioz that, which we used for that program immediately. 

So I think there would be about two checks that 
might be credited to-- 

e What is the basis ior your belief that four to five 
hundred thousand dollars of her contributions were for the 
Items that Colonel Korth had described in this meeting? 

A I think that's the amount that came in very close 
afterwards and before we asked her to help with these other 
projects. But I know she sent at least that amount very 
shortly thereafter. 

& Did you report that contzlbutlon to Colonel Horth? 

A I think some of this was in stock, which I showed 
to him one day when we were in the Hhlte House at some other 
meeting. Z had just gotten It In redezal Cnpress as I was 
walking out of the door of my apartment and while we were at 
the meeting I opened it up and here was all this stock, a 
lot of stock. And I said to Dan Conrad. I think I'll go up 
to Ollie 's office and show him this stook and see if he's 
ever seen anything like this befoza. I did— we were there 



IWSS'IB 



140 



mm h^%\lM 



NAME: HIRauuOOO -j j >. ,5 • ;. 3 r}t.?«J28 BaM*' PAGE 139 

3368 ;ust a minuta ot tuo and I shouad him tha stock ua had 

3369 gotten and he was very impiessad. Ha saaned to ba vary 

3370 impressed. 

337 1 e Was thara any discussion that this is what she had 

3372 contributed in response to his presentation at her hotel 

3373 room? 

337U A Oh, I'm sura ua mentioned that. I may have even 

3375 asked him to call her and thank har. 

3376 2 Can you recall any othar discussions batuaen 

3377 Colonel North and any of youz contributors concerning 

3378 weapons in 1985? 

3379 A I don't know. I think that's it. 

3380 2 In April oi 1986 did you and Colonel North meat 

3381 with Mrs. Garwood at tha Hay-Adams Hotel and discuss need 

3382 for funds to purchase weapons? 

3383 A Yes. 

338U 2 Uas that meeting in tha bar oi tha Hay-Adams Hotel? 

3385 A Tha grill. 

3386 a Tha gzill oi tha Hay-Adams Hotel? Has thara a list 

3387 oi weapons that Colonel North raiarrad to during that 

3388 maatins? 

3389 A Yas. Ha brought a list with him. 

3390 S Do you recall what was on tha list? 

3391 A I think thara was something Ilka «700,000 in iood. 

3392 There was ammunition also on that list. There was at least 



mwssffl 



141 




NAUE^ HIR2144000 1 1 1 V U ••••'-' ' PAGE 140 

3393 two types of grenade--lika H-9 gtanada launchars or something 

339U that he had on there. I can't recall other things. 

3395 e Uhat was the total dollar amount oi the items on 

3396 that list? 

3397 A I thought it uas--I don't remember precisely-over «2 

3398 million. 

3399 2 Did he leave the list with you? 

3400 A He either gave it to me to give to Ellen or he gave 
3>401 It directly to Ellen. She asked ii she could have it to 
3U02 take back to Austin and there was no problem with that. I 
3403 don't know whether he gave it to me and I handed It to her 
340U or he just handed it to her. 

3405 2 Had you seen the list in advance oi the meeting 

3406 with Mrs. Garwood? 

3407 A No. 

3408 2 Did Colonel North ask Mrs. Garwood iox a 

3409 contribution to acquire the items on that list? 

3410 A No. 

34 11 2 Did he make a stateaent similar to the statement 

3412 you have described that he made In other meetings? 

3413 A Yes. 

3414 Q In substance, what did he say? 

34 15 A He said exactly what you have Indicated, that as 

34 16 you know, I can't ask you iox any money. Ii you want to 

3417 help, just give the money to Spltx. 



mu^^- 



142 



NAME ■ 
3418 
3U19 

auzo 

3U2 1 
3(422 
31*23 
3424 
3425 
3U26 
3427 
3428 
3429 
3430 
3431 
3432 
3433 
3434 
343S 
3436 
3437 
3438 
3439 
3440 
3441 
3442 






HIR244000 V? J .•*..■ .s Hi.' el '.^^\f PAGE 141 

2 And aftet that did h« laava? 

A Y«s. 

2 And did you ask Hxs. Garwood fot a contribution for 
those itans? 

A Yes. 

2 And what was her response? 

A She said that she wanted to help and that I knew 
that she would help and that she would do everything she 
could to help, but oi course she couldn't give as nuch as 
Ollie wanted and that she would have to check with her 
banker tomorrow and see what she could do and that she would 
talk to the people when she got back to Austin and see how 
much she could give. But she definitely wanted to help and 
she called her bankez--ii you don't mind me continuing this-- 

2 No. 

A She called her banker early the next morning and 
she told me then later in the day that she would be able to 
help substantially and then later the next week she said 
that she could send I think it was a million four or 
something like that or a million six. 

2 Aside from the exact amount, she made a very 
substantial contribution within the next few days? 

A Yes, she did, yes. 

2 Old you report that contribution to Colonel Morth? 

A The next week I think — I did call him within the 



\\im flccspri 



143 



MAME- HIR2UU000 Ij '^ ■-- '^^':«:''iV' <•'' ^ '' **"'*' PAGE 142 

314U3 neKt two oi three days. He inquired of me I thinK before 

314L1U then if she was going to be able to give and I told hin I 

3U.145 didn't know but then I subsequently found out that she would 

m^b and called him and told him. 

314147 S Did you and Colonel North also have a discussion m 

3i4'48 the spring of 1986 with William O'Boyle concerning a 

3449 contribution to acquire weapons? 

3450 A Ue discussed planes with him. I have to tell you, 

3451 that's what I remember. 

3US2 2 Uhat led to the meeting between Hr . O'Boyle and 

3453 Colonel North? 

3(4511 A Well, he had come down here for a meeting and--for 

3455 one of our little briefings. It was near the end of the 

3456 spring and the meetings were little then. Ue had very few 

3457 people and he had some down and he was very interested in 

3458 helping and I wanted to have lunch with him the next day. 

3459 He had said the night before he wanted to help. In fact, he 

3460 might have even committed 30 or 60 thousand the night before 
346 1 and I wanted to talk to him the next day because I thought 

3462 maybe we could get him to give a lot more money than that. 

3463 So I had lunch with him at the Hay-Adams down in the grill 

3464 and that's where--when I told him that ue had been very lucky 

3465 to have some of our people meet the President when they had 

3466 given a substantial amount of money and that he might like 

3467 to participate in that sometime if he would ever want to 





U*C"^-' 



;■ .ij * 



144 



NAME ■ 
3U68| 
3U69 
3470 
347 1 
3U72 
31473 
3U7U 
3U75 
3H76 
3U77 
3U78 
3i»79 
3U80 
3U81 
31482 
31483 
34814 
3U8S 
31486 
3487 
3488 
3>489 
3U90 
3149 1 
31492 






HIRaHUOOO ^...r-— '*Tv^-. PAGE 143 

give more money than ha had given, and this was when he had 
committed 60,000. 

2 Was the figure «300,000 mentioned in connection 
with a meeting with the President? 

A No, no. Because we had several people meet with 
him who never gave money like that. 

2 Mr. O'Boyle had been in town to attend the briefing 
that you mentioned . 

A That's right. 

S During the evening he had indicated to one of your 
associates that he wanted to make a contribution. 

A Yes. 

e Had you taken any steps to have any checks run on 
Mr. O'Boyle run overnight as to whether he is the sort of 
person you wanted to be associated with your organization? 

A No. 

S Is it possible that a meeting with Colonel North 
was arranged at breakfast the follouing day? 

A It could have been. I don't remember. 

2 At some point there occurred a meeting between you. 
Hr . O'Boyle and Colonel North: is that correct? 
A Yes, in the afternoon. 

fi Shortly after the evening briefing. 

A Oh. yes, right. 

2 And what did Colonel North say during this meeting? 



\M mW^ 



r^is 



M* S :: 'vai' > 'J 



145 



NAME 
3U93 
3U9U 
3U95 
3496 
3497 
31498 
3K99 
3S00 
3501 
3502 
3503 
350U 
3505 
3506 
3507 
3508 
3509 
3510 
35 1 1 
3512 
3513 
35 m 
3515 
3516 
3S17 



HIR2Ut4000 



\ 






yp:^^:^^ nOUSS !»-•' PAGE luu 

A Ha talkad about the airplanes and how effective 
they would be and how important all of this was and he 
gave--he wasn't there very long, by the way, a very short 
meeting. He talked about the freedom fighters in general, 
what they were doing and I mean it was just small talk about 
the freedom fighters, nothing terrific. And then he left. 
2 Now you say he talked about airplanes. 
A He did. 

Is this the naule planes? 
Yes, these are the Haule planes. 

Did he talk about the cost of the Haule planes? 
I don't recall that but I know that's the direct 
answer to your question but Mr. O'Boyle already knew that. 
2 How did he know that? 

A Either the person who solicited him the night 
before told him--I also mentioned the cost again to him when 
he upped his contribution. 

2 And the cost was how much? 

A Sixty--we said 60 to 65 thousand dollars for each 



2 For each one? 

A Yes, sir. But I know that I mentioned it to him. 

8 So Colonel North described the need for Haule 
planes ? 

A Yes. 



l)NClilSSlF!EO 



146 



NftHE 
3S18 
35 19 
3520 
352 1 
3522 
3523 
35214 
3525 
3526 
3527 
3528 
3529 
3530 
3531 
3532 
3533 
353U 
3535 
3536 
3537 
3538 
3539 
35140 
3541 
3542 






HIR2'4i4000 w - ■ - pjQj ,^5 

2 Has thaie any discussion of missiles batween 
Colonel Kotth and Mr. O'Boyle? 

A I do not recall that. 

Q Did Colonel North ask Mr. O'Boyle for a 
cent r ibution? 

A I don't recall that he did. 

2 Do you recall if he made his statement to the 
effect that as a federal official he could not make a 
request? 

A Hot at that luncheon. 

C Did Mr. O'Boyle make a contribution following this 
meeting ? 

A Yes, he did, very quickly. 

2 For hou much? 

A «130,000. 

2 What did he indicate it was for? 

A Two Maule airplanes. 

2 And did you report this to Colonel North? 

A I think so. 

2 Has there a second meeting between you. Mr. O'Boyle 
and Colonel Korth at the time he delivered this check for 
«130.000? 

A X don't recall that. 

2 What did you tel.1 Colonel North when you reported 
the contribution? 



-H^s A??im 



147 



NAME : 
3S43 
35U14 
3S145 
35U6 
3S47 
35(48 
3549 
3550 
3551 
3552 
3553 
3554 
3555 
3556 
3557 
3558 
3559 
3560 
356 1 
3562 
3563 
356<4 
3565 
3566 
3567 



HIR24U000 






IGE 1U6 

A Nothing special. I :ust don't, I don't ranembar. 
I :ust remember that I notified him that we had gotten that 
money . 

2 Did you arrange a later meeting between Mr. O'Boyle 
and Colonel North? 

A It uas arranged through us. through our office. 

2 What uas the purpose of that meeting? 

A Ue have a memory problem hare that I have had with 
parts of these things with O'Boyle and it's dead. 

2 If you don't recall, you don't recall. 

* * n d I g ia m a . I - r an th e b a %h wat e r and JidJi't g^-t-jj, 
aiH I just can't remember. Ha went through this before with 
somebody. I'm just blank for soma reason. I'm sorry. 

fi All right. 

A One of the problems I have with other people's 
contributors is just that. I didn't focus very often on 
much follow-up with other people's contributors. I would 
often go in to help them raise the money from that 
contributor and than I would back away and deal with my own 
people and other things would happen with those 
contributors . 

2 When you say other people's contributors, do you 
mean other fund raisers employed by NEPL? 

A Sure. 

2 Uho was the fund raiser responsible for Mr. 




148 



MAKE : 
3568 
3569 
3570 
357 1 
3572 
3573 
357U 
3575 
3576 
3577 
3578 
3579 
3580 
3581 
3582 
3583 
358U 
3585 
3586 
3587 
3588 
3589 
3590 
3591 
3592 



i&mm ■ 



Jana McLjiughlin. So X hava vivid manories of small 



HIR2U14000 liS'll* S *i ••• ■*•'«■■! a i 9 ''*ge m7 

' Boyle? 

A 

sections oi soma oi thesa maatings with othat contributors 
and than suddanly nothing. I don't know hou I got thera and 
I don't know anything that happanad aitarwards. 

2 All right. 

A Thay normally took cara oi that. 

2 Was anothar NEPL contributor an individual named 
Thomas Claggatt? 

A Yas. 

2 Do you racall any discussion batuaan Colonal North 
and Mr. Claggatt with raspact to a contribution for waapons? 

A Yas. Ha mat I think it was in January with Tom. 

2 Was this a privat* maating? 

A Yas. 

2 Wara you prasant? 

A Yas. 

2 What did ha say — what did Colonal Korth say in that 
maating? 

A Wall, as I racall that maating was a vary vivid ona 
uhara Toa and Colonal North talkad about all typas of 
military waapons just bacausa Tom is intarastad in tha 
military situation. Ha didn't hava tha financial powar to 
giva vary much. Ha was going to glva somathing anyway, a 
contribution, and ha was just going to glva a contribution. 



WIASSK 



149 



NAME 
3593 
3S9U 
3S9S 
3596 
3S97 
3S98 
3599 
3600 
3601 
3602 
3603 
360U 
3605 
3606 
3607 
3608 
3609 
3610 
36 1 1 
3612 
3613 
3614 
3615 
3616 
3617 



HIR2KU0O0 






PAGE 1148 

He didn't care uhere it want and h« was dalightad to rae«t 
Colonel North and they talked warfare the uhole IS or 20 
minutes . 

S To your recollection, did Colonel North present any 
specific military need of the resistance to Hr . Claggett? 

A He talked about missiles also with Tom, tut Tom was 
already going to give a contribution. I mean Tom wished he 
could give a billion dollars. 

2 Other than the contributions that we have discussed 
between Colonel North and your contributors where there was 
a discussion of specific weapons needk, do you recall any 
conversations with other contributors? 

A No . I mean we talked to a lot of people, you know, 
about the program and everything. 

S You mentioned, Hr . Channell, that your organization 
paid for a private plane to transport Colonel North from 
Washington, D.C. to Dallas, TeKas. to meet with Mr. Hunt. 
Did you pay for any other travel or transportation by 
Colonel North? 

A Yes, when he went to vlait Hrs . Newlngton in Hay of 
1986. 

e Has that again a private plane? 

A Yes. He paid for hia and for tlch niller to fly to 
it's either Westchester or Greenwich — I don't know which 
one--airport and back. 







150 



MAKE : 
3618 
36 19 
3620 
362 1 
3622 
3623 
362U 
3625 
3626 
3627 
3628 
3629 
3630 
3631 
3632 
3633 
363U 
3635 
3636 
3637 
3638 
3639 
36140 
3641 
36U2 






HIR2UU000 gsa^r-sa Ms'^i-rti n a page 149 

2 Do you recall th« appzoximataly cost oi that 
flight? 

A That wasn't as much as to Dallas and I think it was 
Ilka mayba 6000 or 5000. 

Q Was that tha only other traval for Colonel North 
that you paid for? 

A Yes . sir . 

fi Did you ever arrange for payment to cover any of 
his travels to Central America? 

A No. 

2 Did you or any oi your organization ever give any 
gifts to Colonel North? 

A Ue gave hin a briefcase when his briefcase fell 
apart on the street. 

2 Nou. when you say ue , is that — 

A Dan Conrad and I together. 

2 You individually? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the approximately cost of that? 

A I don't know. Dan bought it. Charged it. 

2 Do you know if it was under «S00? 

A I don't know. I think it probably should have 
been. 

2 Other than the biieicase did you give any gifts to 
Colonel North? 



Mk 



151 



NAME : 
36143 
3614LI 
3614S 
36U6 
3647 
36148 
36H9 
3650 
36S1 
3652 
3653 
36514 
3655 
3656 
3657 
3658 
3659 
3660 
3661 
3662 
3663 
36614 
3665 
3666 
3667 



HIR2UU000 



No 



yiLASSIflED 



PAGE ISO 



2 In the NEPL financial records was there an account 
known as the Toys account? 

A There was what they call a ledger within the NEPL 
accounts where contributions for special projects for Ollie, 
some special projects, were placed, sone contributions. 

2 When you say that was a ledger account, are you 
distinguishing that from a bank account? 

A Yes. 

2 So It was a bookkeeping entry? 

A That's right. 

2 Where funds were accounted under that heading. 

A That's right. 

2 Hhat was the origin oi the Toys account? 

A Hell, I'm really not sure. People have bashed me 
over the head about this and I'm not sura. I had 
decided — the account was innocently marked Toys when we first 
decided that we were going to try to raise money 
specifically for Adolfo Calero's families in Christmas of 
1985. He were going to put every one of the dollars we 
raised into a special ledger and give him absolutely 
everything that was raised. Then later on we used that for 
the special hardware and military amounts of money. Some of 
them, some of the contributions went there. And it sort of 
became a code around the office among some of the fund 



"mmB 



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NAME- HIR2'4i4O00 






At 






PAGE 151 



3668 

3669 

3670 

367 1 

3672 

3673 

3671* 

3675 

3676 

3677 

3678 

3679 

3680 

3681 

3682 

3683 

368U 

3685 

3686 

3687 

3688 

3689 

3690 

3691 

3692 



raisers that the Toys account meant not the Central American 
freedom program and not SDI, not Geneva summits; it was 
hardware and airplanes and things like that. 

When I uent over this late last year I realized 
that they put money in that account that had no relationship 
to that account whatsoever and money for these hardware 
projects in other parts of NEPL> so-- 

e So in practice it-- 

A It was very misleading. 

e --turned out not to be an accurate record. 

A Oh no. Oh no. Wasn't even close. 

2 Uhat did you do aiter you learned that? 

A This was late last year or maybe even early this 
year when I actually sat down and looked at the records for 
the first time. 

fi Did you structure accounting personnel to remove 
the designation Toys from the internal KCPL financial 
records? 

A I told Steve I think It was in December that ue 
should stop using this totally, that we hadn't used it for a 
while and that people were saying that this was for hardware 
and I thought that was inaccurate and that was wrong and it 
should be stopped. 

e Did you tell Steve — and I take It you are referring 



to Steve HcHahon. 



IINOHSSW 



153 



3693 
369U 
3695 
3696 
3697 
3698 
3699 
3700 
370 1 
3702 
3703 
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3712 
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37 m 



r? 



:.mssinEo , 



HIR2144000 - - ■•-^— . i^pTWll i|,U PAGE 152 

A McPIahon, the accountant. 

e Did you tell hi™ to delete the leierence Toys from 
the computer data base of NEPL? 

A No. only If he interpreted me as saying stop, ue 
don't want to use that any more, to destroy that would he 
have done that. 

I didn't want to use it any more. Ue hadn't helped 
in that way with Colonel Kocth for some time anyway. 

Q What was the reason to tell hia to stop then in the 
fall of 1986 if you were no longer — 

A That was the reason, that ue were not going to be 
doing this any more. 

fi So you told him to stop making an entry with 
respect to any contribution to the Toys account? 

A Any contribution, that's right. Because it was 
wholly inaccurate and it was a mess, frankly. 

2 And it was not your understanding that he was going 
to change any of the existing records in response to your 
comment? 

A Ko. I didn't ask hla to change the records at all. 

Q And you weren't auaxe that he was doing so. 

A That's right. 




w 



154 



' Wsa® "" 



NAHE: HIR2U14000 

3715 RPTS DOTSON 

3716 DCHN STEVENS 
37 17 U : US p.m. 
37 18 

3719 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

3720 2 Hz. Channell, today u* hav* talked about a number 

372 1 of meetings and bzieiings held betuean Colonal North and 

3722 Supporters of your organizations at a time when Colonel 

3723 North was an employee oi the White House, and you have 

3724 indicated in several of your answers that it was significant 

3725 in your fund raising efforts to have the substance or 

3726 involvement of a representative oi the White House; is that 

3727 correct? 

3728 A That is right. 

3729 e Now, did there cone a tine in 1985 when you and Mr. 

3730 Conrad began to discuss the possibility of having the direct 

373 1 involvement of the President of the United States in 

3732 meetings with your contributors? 

3733 A Yes. 

3734 2 In late 1985, did Ulchard Hiller speak to you about 

3735 the possibility of retaining as a consultant a former 

3736 personal aid to the President named David Fischer? 

3737 A He did. 

3738 2 How did that subject come up? 

3739 A Hr. Miller was aware that, as is everybody in 



lINCLASSiflED 



155 



iififtilSSIflED 



KAHE: HIRaUMOOO Si i V b,f 1|_||J 1 1 H || PAGE 15U 

3714O Washington, that it is wonderful if th« President uill 

37U1 endorse your programs. And I had been saying to hire for a 

37U2 long time. I would love to be able to get some of these 

37143 people who have never met the President, who have been 

37414 giving to hire for 20 years, in California and in Washington. 

37U5 every direct mail letter that has his name on it. to meet 

37146 the President. If there is any way we could do that, I 

37<47 would be delighted to be part of it. 

37U8 These people have given and supported the President to th( 

37U9 point of sacrifice in some instances. He talked about that 

3750 several times during 1985, and late in the year he came to 

375 1 me and said. Spitz, I think I nay have found a way to have 

3752 your contributors meet the President. And I said what is 

3753 that? And he said, well, I think we should discuss the 
375U possibility of you bringing on Mr. David Fischer as a 

3755 consultant, he is an ex-private aid to the President, he 

3756 will be able to help us facilitate those meetings, none are 

3757 guaranteed, of course, but he knows the people, he knows hou 

3758 to write the request, he knows the people in the White 

3759 House, and he can also help you with the programs that you 

r 

3760 and I have discussed, there weW about four or them, around 

376 1 town, getting the right information, meeting the right 

3762 people outside the White House who used to work for the 

3763 White House, he can help you get contributors in California 

3764 for some of your projects, most especially the project on 




lU 



.JFIE 



156 



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HIR24U000 



iiiiLASSIFlED 



PAGE 155 



the Constitution of the United States, which is a very big 
project. 

He knous people. Spitz, that you don't know in fund 
raising circles, and he would be imnensely helpful, worth 
his ueight m gold m introducing you to people he knous all 
over the United States and has met over the past seven years 
of working with the President, again, especially in 
California . 

Ue had very few California givers and it is a 
terrific reservoir of potential money. And so Rich Killer 
laid this entire feast before me and said if you will allow 
me to employ him as your consultant for all of these 
programs in the future and the possible meetings with the 
President, we will do so. 

He said, I think it is a very good idea, he can 
help you in a variety of ways, and if you are ever going to 
get meetings with the President, with your people, there is 
no better opportunity than with him. 

Although, again, nothing it guaranteed, and he is 
out of the White House now. So, anyway — 

Q How did Mr. Miller say he had known nr . Fischer, or 
did he? 

A I don't remember. 

2 Did he mention anyone other than Hr . fischer? And. 
specifically, did he mention a gentlenan named Harty Artiano 



isifissro 



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NAME 
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379S 
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3808 
3809 
3810 

381 1 
3812 
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HiRauuooo 



PSSUSSIFIEO 



PAGE 156 



uho was helping David get started m business in Washington. 
and I thinK David had a private business office m Harty 
Ar tiano ' s office . 

A I truly don't know the extent or the depth of theit 
connections. I knou that they showed up together the day ue 
met and X saw Marty maybe five or ten times thereafter and 
then no more . 

2 Was the proposal by Mr. Miller that you hire the 
tuo of them together, i.e.. Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano? 

A X didn't get that impression. I got the impression 
X was going to take on Mr. Fischer's consultant. 

2 You say you met Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano shortly 
after this initial discussion with Mr. Miller? 

A Yes. 

fi Was that in December 1985? 

A Yes. Or maybe even a little earlier. The last of 
November . 

2 November or December 1985? 

A Yes. 

2 Has thkt at Mr. Miller's office? 

A Yes. it was. the second one. 

2 The second-- 

A Hhen I have worked with Rich he has had three 

offices. This was the second one. And they are almost all 

on the same street, so it is a disaster trying to figure out 




\v:v 



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HIR2U14000 






PAGE 157 



which one. This is th« second one. 

Q What was discussed in this meeting that you had 
uith Mr. Fischer and Mr. Attiano and Mr. nillai? 

A What we have previously suggested they could do. 
And, actually, David Fischer said that he would have to 
frankly research around town and talk to people to find out 
if he wanted to have a political group as a client and that 
he would get back with us shortly on that. 

2 Was there any discussion oi compensation in the 
initial meeting? 

A Yes. There were discussions oi *S0,000 and 920,000 
per month, and — 

S You mean 450.000 a month as well as 20-- 

A Ho, or «20,000 a month. 

2 Uhat were you to receive ior 450,000 a month and 
what were you to receive for 420.000 a month? 

A The same thing. It turns out it was the same 
thing. They tried to-- 

S If you were going to receive the same thing, why 
would you consider paying 50 instead oi 20? 

A I didn't. I said it is impossible, we can't afford 
it. So we ended up paying him 420.000 a month on retainer 
for. I guess, almost a year. 

2 Was that discussed at the iixst meeting with Mr 
Fischer? 






159 



HIR2UII000 



mmm 



PAGE 1S8 



NAME 

3840 A Haybe. Very closa th«r«aftat. 

3841 2 You say at th« first raeating h« naeded to check out 
38U2 your organization and dacida that ii h« uantad to take on 
3843 this type of client-- 

38'^'* A That is right. I gather it was almost sincere, or 

3845 was sincere, because I don't think Rich Hiller would have 

3846 brought someone up to say we should get together here and 

3847 let's do it unless they were ready to do it. I think David 

3848 /Probably said to Rich, I would like to talk to them first. I 
38U9 don't mind you arranging the meeting and I will tell them 

3850 what I am planning to do here in Washington and see if that 

3851 aligns with their programs and after X get a measure of 

3852 these people I am going to go out and see what else other 

3853 people say, and then come back. I think that was a sincere 
385<4 remark. 

3855 2 Was Hr . Conrad also present at this initial 

3856 meeting? 

3857 A I think so. 

3858 e What did Hr . Attiano say in this initial meeting? 

3859 A Kot much. 

3860 fi I take it there was then a subsequent meeting with 
386 1 the same group shortly thereafter? 

3862 A Either that or — that* was. yes. But X also told 

3863 Rich that when David had made his decision to let us know 
386U and if it was a positive one. which it turned out to be. in 



ti 



160 



NAME ■ 
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3889 



HIR24U0OO 



wMm 



PAGE 159 



a subsequent meeting David came and did say he would 90 
ahead and become a consultant, ue could get everything 
organized, uhat to do. 

Q Has the understanding that nr . Fischer was to be a 
consultant to IBC as opposed to KEPL? 

A Yes. Ue would pay the bill to IBC. He was going 
to work with us through IBC, but he would, he was not 
exclusively working with us. 

2 So he was to work for IBC> he would be paid by IBC 
and you would reimburse IBC ior payments to Fischer? 

A At least some oi them. He had other clients also. 
At the same time he was working for us. He was working for 
other people . 

There was never any--it was never mentioned. Spitz. 
I will work exclusively for your organizations. 

S How, was the initial understanding in late 1985 
reduced to writing? 

A I don't know. 

S You have no recollection oi a written agreement? 

A No, but I was not the administrator for our 
organization. Don Conrad was. and he would have been 
required to get that together over it. I would not have 
necessarily seen him. 

fi Now, from the beginning was it underst^d t.- . one 
of the objectives of this association with Hr . Fischer was 



yiisussra 



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3890 

389 1 
3892 
3893 
3894 
3895 
3896 
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3898 
3899 
3900 

390 1 
3902 
3903 
3904 
3905 
3906 
3907 
3908 
3909 
39 10 
39 1 1 
3912 
3913 
39 IK 



HIR2UU000 



imi^sira 



PAGE 160 



to arrange meetings with President Reagan? 

A Yes li ue could. He was to make a good--uhat do 
they call it?--good faith effort. 

2 Did Mr. Fischer or fir. Artiano say to you that it 
uould cost 950.000 a meeting with President Reagan? 

A Oh. yes. they discussed that. 

2 Uhen did they say that? 

A at the very beginning. 

2 What did they say. as best you recall? 

A I don't recall the details, but that was the 
substance of it. 

2 For every meeting I set up with President Reagan. 
It will cost you «S0.000? 

A That IS right. 

2 And was that to be in addition to the «20.000 a 
month retainer? 

A No. Tha 



2 
A 
2 
A 

2 
offer? 



t was their oiiez initially X^) .£^ .<!,..., _^j^/-<;v« 
Well, which was their oiiez initially? _ 'f c ' . 
The «50,000 was the initial offer, 
roc each meeting with President Reagan? 
Yes. But we didn't do that. 
You say we didn't do that. Did you reject that 



Why? 



Kussro 



162 



NAME ■■ 
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39 17 
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3920 
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3923 
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3931 
3932 
3933 
3934 
3935 
3936 
3937 
3938 
3939 



wussm 

HIRZUUOOO V"»''~ pjGE 161 

A That was impossibly axpensiv*. 

2 But that uas tlr . Fischer oc fir. Artiano's ociginal 
proposal ? 

A It might hava con* through Rich Hillar. I don't 
remember initially talking to David Fischar diractly about 
dollars. And I really havan't thought about this for a long 
time. I literally haven't thought about it for a very long 
time. I think, frankly, we discussed money more with Rich 
Miller than Marty and David. 

Q You understand that the agreement that was reached 
at some point then was a monthly retainer of «20,000 a 
month? 

A That is right. And that that was regardless of 
whether there were no meetings with the President or ten 
meetings with the President. It didn't make any difference. 

fi Mas that for a period of time? 

A Well, if I was still in business ua would be going 
on today. 

e Was there a specific understanding that this would 
extend fox two years? 

A Ko. 

2 You have no recollection of that? 

A I don't remember a time limit. 

2 Do you recall a meeting that Hr . Artiano and Hx . 
Fischer requested later in 1986 where they reported that 



mss0^ 



163 



iisussiFe 



PAGE 162 



NAME- HIR214UOOO 

3940 they had heard statements from you or Hr . Conrad that the 

39141 basis of compensation was «50,000 a meeting and they wanted 

39U2 to correct your understanding oi the basis of compensation? 

3943 A Off the record. 

3944 (Discussion off the record.) 

3945 HR. FRYHAN: Back on the record. 

3946 BY MR. FRYMAM: 

3947 2 I will rephrase the question. 

3948 A I was lost, that is all. 

3949 S Do you recall a meeting later in 1986 with Mr. 

3950 Fischer and Mr. Artiano where they stated that the purpose 

395 1 of the meeting was to correct a misunderstanding that had 

3952 been reported to them concerning the basis of compensation 

3953 that they were receiving iron NEPL7 Spself Ically , they 

3954 stated that you and Mr. Conrad wet* stating that HEPL was 

3955 paying them *50,000 for each meeting with President Reagan 

3956 which they considered to be incorrect and they wanted to 

3957 have this meeting to correct your understanding of the basis 

3958 of compensation. 

3959 A Got it. Ho. 

3960 fi You don't recall any such meeting? 

396 1 A Dan Conrad would have attended a meeting about 

3962 that. I probably wouldn't have. That was financial matters 

3963 that Z probably would not have gotten into. I do not recall 

3964 going to any such meeting. 



«V).^^«® 



164 



NAME : 
3965 
3966 
3967 
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3971 
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3986 
3987 
3988 
3989 




m 



HIR2UU000 ■^59iw»="— - PJkGE 163 

1 know w« had an initial discussion about «SO,000. Ua 
didn't do that, so-- 

S Would tha basis oi compansation ba a mattat that 
would also ba nagotiatad uith He. Conrad as opposad to you? 

A Ha did a lot of that. Saa , ha hirad a lot oi oue 
peopla, ha astablishad salarias fox all oi our paopla. ha 
was to managa all oi tha amployaas, taach than. 

2 Would Ke . Conrad hava tha authority to nagotiata 
tha terms oi a consulting agraamant with Hr . Fischar and He. 
AEtiano? 

A Aitar a cartain point ha oould ilnaliza that. 

2 Could ha nagotiata tha datails oi compansation? 

A Aitas a caEtain point ha could. Ha couldn't go out 
thasa and say I am going to hiza you and I think you aEa 
uoEth so much and Spitz ulll lova it> no. 

fi Wall> aitar tha dacision had baan mada to hira 
Fischar and Artiano. did He. Conzad hava authoElty to agEaa 
to pay tham 450.000 ioE aach maatlng with PEasidant Raagan? 

A Ko . Ha could hava agraad on oue bahali to pay tham 
somathing. but not that aaount. 

fi Did ha hava tha authoElty to agtaa to pay tham on a 
paE maatlng basis? 

A No. This would all ba disoussAd with ma at soma 
point. I maan. wa would hava dlsoussad it at soma point and 
ha would hava iinishad up. Ha might hava gona to tham at 




165 



HAME 
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uooo 

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uoou 

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40 12 
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HIR244000 




PAGE 164 



the beginning, to anybody, to work up a proposal. But ha 
uas supposed to pass anything like that by ma. and generally 
he did. 

2 Are you familiar with Aha amounts that KEPL paid to 
IBC each month in 1985 and 1986 for the services of fir. 
Fischer and Mr. Artiano? 

A Ho. I raean--no, not the precise amounts. 

2 So I take it you are not aware of any advance 
payments for their services in the range of «50,000 each 
month? 

A I would not be, that is true. 

e Is that something that would come within the area 
of responsibility of Hr . Conrad, to arrange for that sort of 
payment? 

A Yes, sometimes he would do that. He could do that, 
yes. He handled IBC bills. That was part of his work for 
part of the time . 

S Do you recall any discussion with Mr. Miller in 
early 1986 about the need for KEPL to pay to IBC an advance 
in the range of azoo.OOO over a period of three or four 
months on the amounts due under the agreement to Hr . Fischer 
and Hr . Artiano? ^^ 

A No. 

e You have no recollection of that? 

A No. 







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NAtlE ■ 
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lilLi\S;iSrltii 



HIR244000 w»»»— " pAGE 165 

2 I take It then that you do not r«call any 
discussion with Hi. Hiller about a maating with President 
Reagan for each month of an accelerated payment by HEPL to 
IBC? 

A That--each month on an accelerated payreent--see , tc 
my knowledge, ISC just billed us every month for all of the 
consulting together, and we made the check to them. 

2 Well, you understood-- 

A And it was part of that, to my knowledge. 

2 You understood that the original arrangement was 
that Fischer was to be paid a «20,000 a month retainer by 
IBC? 

A Right, fu^ u-i^L, Jj/K u/^ OAA-A^ yi^-^nJ^'^^ 

2 Which would in essence be passed on to NEPL? 

A Right. Sure. 

2 So you were paying IBC «20,000 each month for 
Fischer's services? 



Right. 



K 



A Lf\U^t 



u recarll 



A 

2 Now. do you reckdl any discussion with tlr . niller 
early in 1986 where he stated that In addition to the 
monthly 420,000 payment for Hr . Fischer's services he was 
going to bill you an additional 450,000 a month as an 
advance due on his obligation to Hx . Fischer? 

A I don't recall that. To me, that Is confusing. 

2 What do you find confusing about It? 




167 



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<40U 1 
4042 

nous 

UOUU 
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4048 
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PAGE 166 

A Why would ue ba paying $50,000 in advance for a 
«20,000 bill m advance? 

1£ that IS what you mean. I may be not 
understanding your question. I :ust don't--I don't remember 
that, that is all. 

2 Did Mr. Miller indicate to you that he was having 
to pay to Mr. Fischer more than «20,000 a month because of 
the time that Mr. Fischer was devoting to his services for 
NEPL? 

A No . I never had any complaints, if you would call 
that a complaint. I would call that a complaint. 

S In any case, you do not recall any discussions with 
Mr. Millar about your agreeing to pay more than 420,000 a 
month if you could be guaranteed a meeting with President 
Reagan fox an additional payment or a payment beyond the 
• 20 .000 a month? 

A Mo. Ho, I just--sorry. 

S Did you have direct negotiations with David Fischer 
in the lata spring of 1986 about a consulting arrangement 
with him? 

A Z talked to him very frequently about a consulting 
arrangement with him; a lot. 

a Old you and Ht . rischai xeaoh an agreement in the 
late spring or summer of 1986? 

A Hell, I decided to pay him directly once or twice. 



pwssw 



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HIR244000 ^.,.w— -- - pjQj. ,g, 

just directly. David uas in the process of a great deal of 
turmoil the entire time I worked with hii« as to uhat he 
really uanted to do, the limits of his consulting, who he 
wanted to work with, whether he wanted to work with 
Harriott, which he really delighted in working with it. some 
foreign governments, become a foreign agent or whatever. 
One of his stock phrases to me was. Spitz, we need to go 
have lunch, I need to talk to you about what we need to do 
in the future. And one day I said to him, David, one of 
these days you need to gat organized, because every week you 
are in Washington it is a n*u project and a new consulting 
position, and then he would call m* from time to time and he 
would say. I want to talk to you about uhat we are going to 
do in the future, what I can do for you in the future, and I 
had ]ust thought we had gotten it when he would come up with 
something new, an entiraly different arrangement, and I got 
the impression the entire time I worked with him he was just 
very unsettled, 

I think that he must have stopped working with 
narty Aitlano within three or fouz months after I met him, 
because w« didn't see him anymore, didn't heat from him 
anymore, David didn't mention him anymore, anything. And 
then David, who had had an office at tlazty's. has an office 
at Rich's, but David has other clients also, and David is 
calling me saying we need to work out our future. I never 




169 



imi\ssi?B 



NAME HIR2U14000 I B i « < ll.l'^'L.? '^ « » ■ PAGE 168 

4090 was able to decide whether or not ha had told Rich this, 

4091 although I do know that he had other clients in Rich's 
U092 office corapleK. 

4093 So It was a little bit confusing to me. But I did 

'409'4 pay him I think two checks directly in the late summer or 

>409S fall. And then we reverted to what ue had done before. I 

14096 think, was to go right back and give the money to Rich. 

4097 There might not have been another check, I an not sure. But 

U098 I did pay hin directly twice. 

14099 2 What was the reason for that? 

U100 A I can't remember. I can't zemenbez what the reason 

14 1 1 was. I was :ust sitting here thinking why did we do that. 

14102 I know one time he called and asked specifically ii we could 

14103 do that this month. I got--again, let ne go back, I was 
141014 getting the impression he was either uncomiortable now 

14105 working with Rich or he was moving out on his own or 

14106 something, but he did call, twice as a natter oi fact, and 
14 107 asked for checks nade out personally to hin rather than 
U108 going through IBC in late sunner. early fall. 

14 109 2 Apart iron whether or not the checks were paid 

14110 directly, «■ I correct iron your answer that you do not 
4 111 recall re-negotiating with Hr . Fischer the terns of the 
4 112 original consulting agreenent in the spring or sunner of 
4113 1986? 
4 114 A Ko . I think ue were paying hin the sane anount 



l)NeL4SS!Fl[0 



170 



NAME : 

U 1 1 5 
4 116 
14 1 1 7 
U 1 13 

un9 

4 120 
4121 
14122 
4 123 
U12I4 
4125 
4126 
4127 
4 128 
4129 
4130 
4 13 1 
4132 
4133 
41 34 
4135 
4136 
4137 
4 138 
4139 



HIRauuOOO 






USSiFe 



PAGE 169 



right until the time ue had stopped. The only variance to 
jty knouledge uas the--as I said. I think ue made out tuo 
personal checks, to checks personally to hira rather than 
IBC . 

e Your initial association uith Mr. Fischer and Mr. 
Artiano uas in late 1985; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

2 Was one of their first activities work in 
connection uith the January 1986 briefing? 

A They uorked tuo months on that. 

e And that briefing uas ultimately held on January 
30. 1986? 

A That is tight. 

2 Is that a briefing that President Reagan attended' 

A Yes. Ke stopped by. 

2 Is that the only NEPL briefing that ha ever 
attended ? 

A It is. 

2 And is it youz understanding that Hr . Fischer 
arranged President Reagan's appearance at that briefing? 

A That is correct. 

2 Apart from the President's appearance, uas the 
briefing similar in format to other White House briefings 
that you had on behalf of your contributors? 

A Yes. And not only that, it uas very similar to 




171 



naue 

4 mo 
m u 1 

y 142 
U 1 43 
14 1 4U 
4 145 
4146 
4 1 47 
4 1 48 
4 1 49 
4 ISO 
415 1 
4 152 
4153 
4 1 54 
4155 
4156 
4 157 
4158 
4159 
4160 
4 16 1 
4162 
4 163 
4164 



HI P. 244000 






PAGE 170 



other White House briefings I had gone to. It was a regular 
White House format. I attended five oi six presidential 
briefings in two years, and they were almost exactly the 
same 

2 What have your meetings with President Reagan been 
over the years? There was the briefing on January 30 ue 
have been discussing. 

A Yes . 

2 On uhat other occasions have you met uith the 
President? 

A I was invited to a briefing on the Geneva summit m 
November of 1985. I was invited to a briefing on the--three 
briefings on the freedom fighters in the Cabinet Room. 

2 When were those? 

A In 1986. 

2 Do you recall the month? 

A I think it was March and maybe April. 

2 You said there was a third one? 

A Two I think in March, and one in April. I was 
invited to another on* on SDI. I was invited to one on the 
Saudi arms sale and the sale of the AUACS planes to Saudi 
Arabia. 

2 That was one briefing? 

A Yes. And X went to a White House briefing, X am 
not sura the President was th*ra> he might have been, on 



mm h^W^fi 



172 



■ I r. 



NAflE^ HIR2UU000 US^* 



7i •>■ ;;■•! '1^ 



416S 
U166 
4 167 
^ 1 68 
U 169 
14 170 
4 17 1 
4172 
4173 
4 174 
417S 
4176 
4177 
4 178 



■ _i^ PAGE 17 1 
South Africa. 

2 Uhen was the SDI btiefing? 

A One was in November of 1985. And I can't remember 
the other--it might have been close to, I just can't remember 
uhen the second one was. but there have been two. 

2 Kow, you mentioned you attended a briefing also m 
November of 1985 relating to a summit. So did you-- 

A That is the SOI briafing. 

2 That IS the SDI briefing? 

A Yes. All of these meetings were held either in the 
Cabinet Room or the Roosevelet Room. I have attended 
probably ten meetings in Room 450. 

2 Uith the President? 

A Yes. 




173 



MAHE : 

U 179 
4 180 
14 18 1 
M 182 
U183 
U18U 
4185 
<4186 
U 187 
U 188 
U 189 
4 1 90 
U19 1 
14 192 
14193 
14 194 
U 195 
U 196 
U 1 97 
14 198 
4199 
4200 
420 1 
4202 
4203 



jiussiFie 



PAGE 172 



HIR244000 
RPTS MCGINN 
DCMN SPRADLING 
[5 45 p . ra. 1 



2 And uhat is tha natuie of thosa maetings? 

A His legislative agenda, human rights day. the 
budget, innumerable things. 

2 Nou, these meetings that you have described in 450 
and also the other brieiings. these are all meetings as a 
part of a larger group; is that correct? 

A Oh. yes. 

2 Have you had any private meetings with President 
Reagan? 

A No . 

2 Did you participate in any private meetings that he 
had uith contributors to your organization? 

A No. 

2 Have you had any phone conversations with President 
Reagan? 

A 

2 

A 

2 

A 



H* called me in June oi '86 one*. 

War* you at your office at the tiita? 

Yas, I was. 

Do you know what prompted that call? 

Yes. I wrote him a latter and told him that I had 



analyzed the Nicaraguan legislation, tha quagmire the 



m&m 



174 



UNCUSS'ifiED 



NAHE 
U20U 
14205 
4206 
"4207 
U208 
4209 
14210 
U21 1 
4212 
142 13 
<42 1(4 
4215 
14216 
U217 
14218 
U2 19 
14220 
4221 
>4222 
■4223 

(422<4 

4225 
4226 
4227 
4228 



HIR244000 PAGE 173 

Nicaraguan lagislation was sitting in and suggested that if 
he uantad to get it oif dead center he adopt the following 
seven proposals. And he called me to discuss them. 

2 Had you received advance notice that he would be 
calling ? 

A Yes. I was told that he might call sometime that 
week . 

2 Who told you? 

A David Fisher told me they had gotten a letter, that 
he might call. If he was going to call, he might call that 
week . 

S In the group briefings that you have referred to 
were there any occasions where the President specifically 
referred to you or spoke to you directly in those briefings? 

A Other than to answer or respond to a question I 
had. no. 

fi Do you recall his thanking you in one of those 
meetings for some advertise«ents that your organization had 
run? 

A Hell, only in my meeting, the KCPL meeting did he 
thank us for what we had done before. 

S Not in these other briefings? 

A No. 

2 Now. the January 30th Hhlte House briefing, it's 
your understanding that Kr . Flshei arranged the President's 



llimSffltD 



175 



li 



^5 gOC4' 



mmi 



NAHE ■■ 
U229 
U230 
U23 1 
4232 
14233 
U23U 
U23S 
U236 
4237 
U238 
^ 4239 
4240 
4241 
4242 
4243 
4244 
424S 
4246 
4247 
4248 
4249 
4250 
4251 
4252 
4253 



HIR244000 



PAGE 174 



appearance at that briefing. Did you also ask Hr . fisher to 

C 
arrange private meetings between the President and 

substantial contributors to your organization? 

A Yes 

2 

A 

e 

A 

Q 
A 

..^■^ 

Sacker. He facilitated all of those. 

2 Had each of those individuals contributed more than 
a hundred thousand dollars to KEPL? 

A Yes. 

S Had each contributed mote than 200.000? 

A I'm missing one, the Pentecosts. Now the answer is 
no . 



And was nr . Flsihar able to arrange such meetings' 
He was , several . 

Do you recall the ones that he arranged? 
Oh yes. sure. 

Uhioh contributors met. to your recollection? 
The Driscolls. Mrs. King, Hrs. Kewington, the 
H'irrans - Ellen Garwood, Bunker Hunt, Bill Q'Neil. Fred 



2 Which had not contributed more than 200,000? 

A The Pentecosts did not contribute a hundred 
thousand and the Driscolls had not contributed 200,000 at 
that time. I'm trying to think of the times they had the 
meetings because it would have been relevant to me if they 
gave a lot afterwards. I'm trying to remember when those 
meetings occurred. I can't remember all the names, but 



^^ 




176 



MAHE ■■ 

U254 
U25S 
4256 
4257 
U258 
U259 
U260 
U261 
U262 
U263 
<426U 
U265 
14266 
4267 
U268 
U2&9 
4270 
427 1 
4272 
4273 
427U 
4275 
4276 
4277 
4278 






HIR244000 t .; MJiiiB-S *^ — PAGE 175 

those are two that uere under 200,000. The rest gave much 
higher than that. 500,000 and up. By the time they had seen 
the President, they had given much nore than that. 

2 So Mrs. King was more than 500,000 when she met the 
P t es ident ? 

A No . 

2 Let's use the figure 300,000. Was Mrs. King more 
than 300,000? 

A She would have been very close to 300,000. She was 
not one oi my contributors and so my memory for her figures, 
utt^T^ money came in is very vague. 

2 Who was the fund raiser assigned to Mrs. King? 

A Cliff Smith. But she would have been close to 
300,000 I would think. 

2 Mrs. Hewington I taKe it had contributed more than 
300 . 000 . 

A Oh yes. way over. 

2 






Yes. 



Hrs. Garwood had contributed-- 

VAJcirrtii" 



A 

2 

A I'm not sure the KaaBVn' had given 300,000 yet. but 
we had asked them to send stock latex. This was I think in 
January and they wanted to do it later and we were going to 
need it later, so the fact that they hadn't given much then 



\1HW^»? 



177 



NAHE 
U279 
U280 
U28 1 
U282 
4283 
U28U 
(4285 
U286 
U287 
14288 
14289 
14290 

1429 1 
14292 
U293 
1429U 
U295 
14296 
14297 
4298 
U299 
4300 

1430 1 
14302 
4303 



was irrelevH^.-^^'^'^ii-iiUinLii 



PAGE 176 



2 Thera had be«n a commitnftnt for an amount of 

300.000' 

& Mora than that. 

e note than that? 

A Oh, y«s. sit. mora than that. 

Q And nis. Gatuood had givan nota than 300,000? 

A Oh. yas. much moia. 

e Mr. Hunt had givan mota than 300.000? 

A Oh yas . 

2 What about Hr . O'Hail? 

A By that txraa much moza than that. yas. 

2 And nz . Sackaz? 

A Yas . 

2 And tha Pantacosts had not? 

A Thay didn't giva a hundzad thousand. 

2 Was it your undazstanding that thaza was no 
official Whita Housa zacozd maintainad of thasa pzivata 
meatings ? 

A I thought thaza was always a zacozd of avazybody. 

2 Did you avaz indieata to Hz. O'Boyla that such 
maatings would not ba--would not appaaz in tha Whita Housa 
cacozds ? 

A Ho . I mancionad to him that this would not ba an 
official maating, that tha pzass would not ba invitad in. 



umpire!) 



178 



NAME 
43014 
4305 
4306 
4307 
4308 
4309 
4310 
43 1 1 
4312 
4313 
43 14 
4315 
4316 
4317 
4318 
4319 
4320 
4321 
4322 
4323 
4324 
4325 
4326 
4327 
4328 



HIR244000 



^Jl-i^ 






PAGE 177 



2 But you don't recall saying anything that there 
uould not be a written record? 

A You can climb m the window. Ko . 

2 Going back to your conversation with Kr . O'Boyle. do 
you recall saying anything to hin about secrecy being 
maintained with respect to his hotel bills when he was 
staying in Washington? 

A I said to many people we will pay for your hotel 
bill because oi the support you are giving us. Ue would 
prefer to just go ahead and pay for it. 

2 Do you recall saying aore than that, that there 
would not be any record oi his staying in the hotel in 
connection with these meetings? 

A That just--I don't renember that. I don't know how 
you could stop -Un^ jt from being a record. 

fi You do recall saying to Hr . O'Boyle that it might 
be possible to arrange a meeting between him and the 
President if he made a substantial contribution? 

A Oh yes. If he would be Hilling to help more. 

2 But you don't recall mentioning the figure *300.000 
to him? 

A No, I don't. 

H». FRYHAH: I asK the xepoitei to mark as Channell 
Deposition Exhibit 1 for identification a group of documents 
which have been reproduced fzoa the docuaents produced by 



meussiFiED 



179 



NAHE ■ 
U329 
4330 
U33 1 
14332 
>4333 
4334 
14335 
U336 
U337 
14338 
14339 
U3U0 
(43U1 
(«3(t2 
U3t43 
143UU 
143M5 
I43(t6 
U3U7 
U3M8 
<t3U9 
U3S0 
U351 
•4352 
U353 



HIR2Uy000 




PAGE 178 



Mt Channall's counsal in taspons* to subpo«nas iion tha 
House and Sanata committaas. At tha fiont of this voluma oi. 
documents is a list of tha idantif icatlon numbazs on aach of 
tha sheets of papat that waca placed on tha docunants by Mz . 
Channell's counsal. Thaza's also an indication of tha data 
of tha document. Uhara it's possible to determine the date, 
the general effort has been to organize tha materials in 
this voluma in chronological otdaz. 

[Channall Deposition Exhibit Ho. 1 was marked for 
identification. ] 

BY nR. FRYHAM: 

S nr . Channall. would you look at Deposition Exhibit 
1 for identification and I first direct your attention to 
tha sheets in tha back of tha volume which contain 
handwritten notes. Tha first of those has the 
identification number 79113 at tha bottom. I believe that 
note is not youz handwriting* is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

S Do you recognlza that to be anyone's handwriting? 

A I don't, unless it's Dan Conrad's, I don't know. 

Q You are not sura of the handwriting? 

A Ko. 

a Mould you turn to tha n«Kt page which has the 
number 316U2 at the bottom and has at the top ATAC-Haryland . 
Is that your handwriting? 






U 



180 



NAME: HIR2UU000 ^ ^ ^- ■ 1 ' S ^ ! \ ^ Jl i!" S /> 3 I P*GE 179 

U35U & Yes. 

14355 e And turn to tha next paga which has tha nunbar 

14356 37775 Is that also your handwriting? 
U357 A Yes. 

'4358 2 And tha naKt two pagas. which aia 7593S and 75936, 

14359 is that youz handwriting? 

(4360 A Yes, tha first paga is and tha sacond . 

U361 2 Finally, tha last paga which is 81288, is that your 

(4362 handwriting? 

U363 A Yas. 

1436(4 2 All right. Now lat's raviaw tha pagas that you 

(4365 hava idantifiad as your handwriting and wa will raturn to 

(4366 tha first of thosa pagas which is 316U2, and has ATAC- 

(4367 naryland at tha top. What doas that rafar to? 

(4368 A This is tha Anti-Xarrorisit Amarican Coitnittea. 

(4369 2 And what is tha significanea of tha stata Maryland? 

(4370 A Wa hopad to do a canpaign in naryland. 

U37 1 2 Kow, undar that is listad tha. naaas of various 

(4372 individuals and what appaar to ba indications of amounts of 

(4373 monay: is that corract? 

(437(4 A That's right. 

U375 2 And do thosa amounts total ^3,500 or U7,S00? 

U376 A Kight. X hopa so. 

U377 2 At laast you hava indicatad that on tha shaat. 

14378 A Exactly. 



181 



flffh^^m^^ 



NAHE 
4379 
U380 
14381 
U382 
(4383 
43811 
(438S 
14386 
14387 
U388 
<4389 
•♦390 
1439 1 
U392 
4393 
'439U 
•4395 
14396 
14397 
14398 
U399 
14U00 
4140 1 

uuoz 

•41403 




irt 



HIR2UU0OO _.^, 

PAGE 180 

2 now uhat at« thosa contributions or uhat ar« thos» 
references above that total? 

A Either ue got that amount ior ATAC eventually in 
soliciting or I was hoping to asK those people for that 
amount for ATAC. 

fi Do you know which it was? 
A X think it was a hope. 

2 Now, beneath that total there's a line that appears 
to me to state Green and then a dollar sign; is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

2 What does that refer to? 

A This would mean money for special projects. 
2 Now. would you identify the individuals listed 
under that heading and the amounts. 

A You mean you want the full names? 
2 Yes. Just identify--the first one is Barbara. 
Uould you just identify who that refers to and the amount? 

A Yes. Barbara Newington at •150,000. Ellen Garwood 
at «200.000. Bill O'Boyle. *S0,000. Hel Salwasser at 
♦ SO. 000, Uri. Anderson at •20, 000. Tom Claggett at »20.000. 
Hrs. Alles at «S000, General Bennett at •SOOO. Bill Bush 
•1000. Hrs. King. *80.000 and Hr . Ledbetter. •5000. 

2 Now, you have the group beginning with Hrs. 
Newington and ending with Ht . Bush listed on the left-hand 




182 



MAME 

UKOU 
UU05 
UUOb 
UU07 
UUOS 
UU09 
UUIO 
UU 1 1 

umz 

141413 
uu 114 
14 1415 
U1416 

UU 17 

ums 

4U 19 
14U20 

uua 1 
141422 

(41423 

UU2U 
14U2S 
14U26 

^u^7 

>4(428 




liiL 



HIR2U4000 - ■ PAGE 181 

column and you have that as a total mdicatad of 501,000. 

A That's right. 

9 Then you hav« rirs. King and Mi. Ledbattei 
sepacately in the tight-hand column uith a total of «8S.O0O. 
Is there any significance to the two separate columns? 

A I have no idea . 

2 And then you indicate a grand total of S586.000. 
[Witness nodded affirmatively.] 

2 Now, are these amounts that each of these 
individuals gave for special projects for Colonel Korth? 

A I have no idea. 

fi Do you recall making these entries? 

A Yes . 

2 What do you recall they are? 

A I have no idea. X mean to me this looks like a 
proDection for the future, not something that they have 
already done. I truly don't know. When you realize that 
many of these people gave every month and I uas continually 
making up budgets. I truly have no idea. 

S Do you recall when you made this list? 

A Ko . It would have to be sometime after ATAC of 
course uas formed, which would have been easily late spring 
of 1986. 

2 So this would have been no earlier than the summer 



of 1986? 



IINCUSSiFIED 



183 



iOliSSIFIED 



NAME HIR2UU000 ' " -— — p^^j. ,33 

UUZSj A Oi the late spting, yes. 
UU3cl 2 Late spiing or suinmei? 
UU3:; A Uh-huh. 

44321 2 Nou green dollars refers to projects of Colonel 

UU33 North, IS that correct? 

4U3U A Yes. That might be projects that I wanted hira to 

U(435 participate in as well. 
4U36 2 Such as what? 

UU37 A For instance, if this was for a terrorist film, it 

'4'438 uas my idea to have hin help us itake a terrorist film and 

UU39 for him to narrate it. This was one of out projects. You 

uituo will note that the amounts of my major people are extremely 

uuut small, relatively. Salwasser. Anderson and Claggett being 

U(4U2 circled are circled because they were not my contributors 

UI4U3 and Mrs. King and Mr. Ledbettez are on the right side 

uuuu because they are not my contributors. 

414U5 2 Well, in looking at this is your recollection 

UI4U6 refreshed as to what project this does refer to? 
UUI47 A No. But I do not believe this was a project with 

UUMS Nicaragua. 
i4>4U9 2 All right. 
14450 Would you return to the-- 

UUS1 A He have people on here Hho did not like to give to 

UU52 Nicaragua. That's why. 
41453 2 Mho were those contzibutoss? 



'^"WSSIFIEO 



184 



KAHE HIR2UU000 Ij l-^y |^if\OU * S iLlw PAGE 183 
UUSHl A Mrs. Alles, General Benfliitt, Hr . Bush are at least 

UU55 three people uho are not interested m giving to Nicaragua. 

I 
uuSol 'Je uere aware last spring that Bill O'Boyle was not going to 



UUS7 

4458 

U4S9 

14U60 

t4U6 1 

14U62 

4463 

4464 

4465 

4466 

4467 

4468 

4469 

4470 

447 1 

4472 

4473 

4474 

4475 

4476 

4477 

4U78 



participate in Nicaragua any more and he is listed here. 
The amount--so I'm sorry but I don't think it uas Nicaragua. 
2 All right. 

Turning to the next page which has your control 
number 37775 on it, would you 3ust read for the record what 
you have written on that page? 

A The top line says. ''New list of dollars or for 
dollars.*' The second line says ''Worldwide fund raising 
dollars."' Third line says ''Meii list of Toys next 
Monday.'' The fourth line says ''Trips for dollars. ■' The 
fifth line says ''Letter from Ollie to people.'' The sixth 
line says ''How much does Elliott know'" and above, ''yery 
little' ' . 

The seventh line I guess said ''kid request in 
dollars'*, and then there's a hundred Billion below that, 
the word ''Perot'' is listed to the right and below that is 
the phrase ''D«vid riaiher and Harty-no.'' 

fi Kow. do you recall naking these notes? 

A They are my notes. 

a Do you recall approxia»tely when you made the{(? 

A I think they were In late fall. 

fi Of what year? 




. ■,. '^v^i'' '^'•^ 



185 






GE 18U 



HAHE HIR2UU000 

UU79| A 1985 or like December of 198S? 

uusoi 2 Nou. uhat is the first line, ''Heu list of 

uus'' dollars'' refer to' 

'^'^821 A I have no idea. It could have been ^ive or six 

uuaa diffarent projects. 

'^'^8'* 2 Uhat does the next line. ''Horlduide fund raising 

U48S dollars'' refer to? 

i^^ae A This would be trying to put together a list of 

UUS? people all over the world fron whon we could raise money. 

UU88 S For 

4489 NEPL' 

UU90 A Not necessarily. 

UU91 2 For some organization. 

'4'<92 A One of my organizations, yet. 

14493 2 How did you go about putting together such a list? 

UU9U A Ue never got one. 

'4U95 e This was an idea that was never implemented? 

14(496 A All of these are ideas, a list of ideas. 

'4'497 a Uhat is the next entry, ''Hew list of Toys'*, refer 

I4U98 to? 

UU99 A This would refer to a list of military or hardware 

USOO needs of the freedom fighters. 

usoi 2 And was this a list that you were going to obtain 

(4502 from Colonel North? 

(4503 A Could have. It could have meant that. 



^11 



t'ii' EL.^ 



186 



NAME 
U50U 
4505 
4506 
US07 
U508 
U509 
US 10 
45 11 
US 12 
US 1 3 
US lU 
U515 
US16 
US 17 
US 18 
US 19 
US20 
US2 1 
U522 
US23 
US2U 
U52S 
US26 
US27 
US28 



mm OTJiFD 



HIR2UU0OO ini'^.^'aan r^^^iiaiii ih ■■ page i8S 

2 Did you ever obtain a list of military needs from 
:olonel North? 

A Never. 

Q Why is there a reference to a new list of toys here 
then' 

A Because ue had raised money in the fall mostly for 
airplanes and I felt that we would need some new ideas for 
1986 and we were going to talk to Adolfo as well as Ollia 
about--! mean in the fund raising profession if you keep 
raising money for the same thing over and over and over and 
you started to raise money for a limited quantity to begin 
with, people are eventually going to say what's wrong. So 
we were hoping for something new. 

e Had Colonel North, in various of his meetings uith 
your contributors, m the fall of 1985 where he had 
discussed military weapons, been working from the same list 
in those various meetings? 

A I have no idea. 

S I'm trying to understand why you felt you needed a 
new list of military weapons from him at this point. 

k It to me is--lt's a fund raising technique problem. 
It's time to have something new to raise money for. 

2 There's a reference beside that to next Monday, 
which I interpret relates to the new list of toys . Is that 
your indication? 






l.:•4fl^=^ 



187 



MAME 
US29 
U530 
4S3 1 
U532 
US33 
U53U 
4535 
<4S36 
■4537 
U538 
US39 
MSUO 
USU 1 

usua 

4543 
USUU 
USUS 
45146 
145147 

usua 

4549 
U550 
USSl 
4552 
4553 






HIR2U4000 eesiui-rs^vii ■*-•' page 186 

; Yes. That's Eight. 

2 Do you recall talking to Colon*! North about 
obtaining a new list of military n««ds? 

A No . 

2 And I take it you do not recall receiving such a 
list? 

A No. Ue never did. 

2 What again does the next line say? 

A ''Trips for dollars'*. 

2 What does that refer to? 

A Going out of toun for fund raising. 

Q Is that trips by Colonel North? 

A It could have been. 

fi Do you recall? 

A I am not sure. It might have meant trips for us. 
for Dan and me to fly around the country for money. 

2 The next line is ''Letters from Ollie to people'' 

A Yes. 

2 Uhat does that refer to? 

A Hell, if this uas--if I'm accurate in thinking this 
IS December, ue were probably thinking that he would want to 
send a thank you letter or some letter for Christmas to our 
major givers. 

2 Did he send such letters? 

A I don't think so. At that time, the timing. He 




188 




PAGE 187 



NAME HIP.2UU000 

45541 probably sent something early in '86 but it wasn't at chat 

US55i tine, 

14336 2 The neKt line is ' ' Hou much does Elliott know'' and 

U33^| then you have written ''very little''. 

U558 A Yes. 

4559 e Elliott refers to Elliott »braras? 

4560 A I think so. 

4561 2 Uhat does that entry refer to? 

4562 A I can only assume that it would refer to what ue 

4563 are doing with Ollie other than our television programs and 

4564 things like that. That's all I have been able to figure out 

4565 about that. 

4566 2 So you are writing a note to yourself asking how 

4567 much does Abrams know about your work with Korth other than 
4563 fund raising for television at this point. 

4569 A Well. I was going to ask Ollie that myself, how 

4570 much does he know. 

457 1 2 In other words, did you have in mind how much does 

4572 he know about the fund raising for military equipment? 

U573 A Yes. That's what I was going to ask. 

4574 Q Well, is the entry up there very little, does that 

4575 indicate an answer from Colonel North? 

4576 A I don't know. I truly don't know. Hhen I looked 

4577 at this note one time I thought of course it does. But then 

4578 I realized that these other things should have been answered 






189 



NAME 

14579 

usao 

US3 ■ 
M582 
14S63 
U58U 
US3S 
U586 
4587 
4S88 
U589 
U590 
4591 
14S92 
US93 
US914 
4595 
4596 
4S97 
4598 
4599 
4600 
460 ) 
4602 
4603 



HIR244000 



mmm 



PAGE 188 
ahead of it and are not. 

2 Is the word beside the letters from Ollie to 
, people, does that say doable? 

j A It can. That very well may be what it is but I 
can't see it because mine is so dark. 

2 Is the entry next month beside new list of Toys, 
does that appear tcjjyou to be an answer as to when you will 
obtain a new list of toys? 

A Again that could have been. 

2 Then the next line has ''Aid request dollars'' and 
you have written m a hundred million dollars after that. 

A Right. 

2 And then out to the side there's written ' 'Perot' '. 

A Yes. 

2 What IS the reference to Perot about? 

A I have no idee. We had asked Ollie several times 
If he could get us an introduction to Ross Perot so that we 
could tell him what ue wera doing, the whole spectrum of ou: 
activities, and he said ha could do it. But ha said that 
over a six-uaak period after wa had asked three or four 
times. And the aid request refers to tha hundred million 
dollars that in January tha Administration requested. 

2 And the last line has a ''no'* written by Dave 
Fisher and narty. What does that refer to? 



I truly don't have any idea. 



UNCUSSiFIED 



190 



KAME: HIR2UU0O0 



)m &\\B 



U60U| [Uhll^eupon, at 6MS p.m., th« deposition was 



PAGE 189 

ugosl lecessed, to leconvene Wednesday, September 2. 1987 

I4606. 



0J0^^^ 



191 



NAHE: HIR2US00 




RPTS HAZUR 
DCHH DOKOCK 

DEPOSITIOK or CARL R. CHAKNELI. 

Uadnasday, Scptambar 2> 1987 

Housa of Raprasantativas. 
Salact Connittaa on Invastigata 
Covart Arms Transactions with lean, 
Washington, D.C. 

Tha salact conaittaa mat, pursuant to call, at 9^00 a.n., 
in Room 22U7, Rayburn Housa Ofiica Building, Thomas Fryman 
(Staii Counsal to tha Housa Salaot Committaa 1 pcasiding. 

Prasant: On bahali oi tha Housa Salact Committaa: Thomas 
Fryman, Staii Counsal; Kannath R. BuoK, Assistant riinority 
Counsal i and Spancar Olivaz, issoeiata Counsal. 

On bahalf oi tha Sanata Salact Committaa: i. Thomas 
HcGough. 

On bahali of tha Hltnass: Alaxia Horrison, Attornay-at- 
LaM. Swidlaz £ Barlin, Washington. D.C. 



A: 



*^W 




PartMy OadairifM/Rclekted on i^^ "^ -^ ?'^,^-^'^ 7 
ui der provisions z\ LO. 121H 
^ O.^rko, N;:! :-r:l xurity Cowidl 



192 



NAME: HIR214SO0O 



m 



Htussra 



PAGE 



23 

2U 
25 
26 
27 
28 
29 
30 
31 
32 
33 
3M 
35 
36 
37 
38 
39 
MO 

m 

U2 
(«3 
MU 
US 
((6 
47 



HR. FRYHAN: On th« lacoid. 

B«ioi« bsginning today, I want to stata for the 
iscoid that prior to tha conmancamant of tha deposition of 
Hr . Channall. I gava to Ms. Horrison. Hz. Channall's 
attornay, a copy of tha immunity ordar concarning rtr . 
Channall, as wall as a copy of tha resolution as tablishmg 
tha Housa Salact Conaittaa and a copy of tha Rules of the 
House Salact Committaa. 

nr . Channall, returning to Channell Deposition One 
for identification, which Me were discussing at the time ue 
adjourned yesterday, would you look again in the back of 
that volume, and the handwritten notes beginning three pages 
from the back, which have the volume numbers 75935 and 
75936, and I believe you identified those pages as in your 
handwriting; is that correct? 
Whereupon. 

CARL R. CHANNELL 
was recalled JBI: as a witness and, after having been 
previously duly sworn, was exaalned »nd testified further as 
follows: 

THI WITNESS: Right. 
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF Of THE HOUSE SELECT COHHITTEE 
BY HR. FRXMAN: 
fi Hould you read the handwriting that is on page 
75935. for the record? 



f OadMMad/«cfea cd on 



uf^er provhiom ol E.0. 12356 
-fey D. s)riio. IsUiioMi Security Council 



HHfussra 



193 



NAME 
U8 
i«9 
SO 
5 I 
52 
S3 
SU 
5S 
S6 
57 
S8 
59 
60 
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6*4 
65 
66 
67 
68 
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70 
71 
72 



HIR2U5000 



V«US«B 



PAGE 



A I think It says Bruca On«--if you can halp rae--l think 
it IS optimism — Cuban split Sandinistas--it may ba 
numbttES--playar iot freadom nunbars . 

S Aitat that, doas it say Congtass acts? 

A Congtass acts, yas , and down balow, it is 
cradibility of Ronald Raagan's paaca afiotts, and number two 
IS somathing ptogtam of contras, chatactar of tha raovament. 
Mumbai thiaa is mora smoking guns, objactiva capoiting of 
aastain tias. Numbat four is intarnal raptassion aspacts. 

fi Than aftaz tha tazm aastazn tias in numbat thzea. 
thara is an atzou and soma additional taxt thata. What doas 
that say? 

A Must convay thzaat to Unltad Statas intazasts. 
Panama Canal and alliad nation* davalop tha thraat. 

S And than at tha bottom of tha paga . is thaza a 
saction baginning ''possibla commazclals ' ' ? 

A Right. Family at — looks like braak, but pziast in 
jail, aquipmant coming off or out oi — and Indians gatting 
muzdacad . 

fi Now> tha zafaranca at tha top of tha paga to Bzuca 
Roman 1. who doas that zafar to? 

A This is a bziafing that I had fzom Bruca Camaron. 
and Z was taking notas on what ha was saying about tha 
history of our Intaxactlons with tha Sandlnista zagima. Ha 
Has sozt of giving ma a lactura on important alamants of 




iJ\WL 



194 



NAHE: 
73 
7M 
75 
76 
11 
78 
79 
80 
81 
82 
83 
8<4 
85 
86 
87 
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89 
90 
91 
92 
93 
94 
95 
96 
97 




nm>\ 



HIR2U5000 «'>1^19|^nUV^I I^V PACE 4 
this whola dabata. 

2 Do you recall th« appioxinata dat* of this briefing 
and these notes? 

A Ko . It would have been, however, around the 
beginning of 1986. 

2 Who was Bruce Cameron? 

A He is a Latin American specialist here in 
Washington. 

2 Was he at some point retained as a consultant by 
HEPL? 

A Yes. 

2 At the time he gave you this briefing, had he been 
retained by NEPL? 

A Hell, we began to pull aboard som oi these people 
right at the beginning of 1986, so if it isn't, it is very 
close . 

2 Kow, the references at the bottom to possible 
commercials, were those suggestions by Hr . Cameron or ware 
those your Ideas, or was It something else? 

A X think what this probably was was after I had heard 
him speak. m« discussed ideas for messages, and of the ones 
H« discussed. I wrote four down. Hust not have been very 
good. He didn't do any of those. 

Actually, indeed. It has to be early 1986, because 
later in 1986, we had the eommerolals done, so this is still 




FU1^1 



195 



NAME: 
98 
99 
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10 1 
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lOU 
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1 10 
1 1 1 
1 12 
1 13 
1 14 
1 IS 
1 16 
1 17 
118 
1 19 
120 
121 
122 



HIR2US000 JJ 
very early. 



NCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 



fi Turning to the next page, 75936, that has the entry 
at the top that ''types who may be invited to dinner.'' 
What do those notes on that page refer to? 

A I am just guessing that this is sort oi an outline 
or something that I was writing for myself. 

2 Do you know what the dinner is? 

A Uell. I am guessing that it was the dinner after the 
speech by the President to our group on the 3rd of January. 

2 And underneath that are notes of possible invitees 
to that dinner? 

A The types of — 

2 The types of Invitees. 

A Yeah, that we would try to think of that might like 
to come. 

2 And at the bottoa, there are further notes by you of 
things to do in connection with that dinner. 

A Yes. 

2 Now, turning to the last page in the volume, which 
is nunbexed 81288. that is headed at the top ''White House 
Briefing ZZ." What does that refer to? 

Z Bight also add that further down the page, there 
is another entry, ''White House Briefing IZZ.'' 

A Um-hua. 

2 Were these briefings that you were contemplating in 



mmim 



196 



NAME : 
123 

12(4 

125 
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1M0 
1I|1 
1<t2 

ins 

1(46 

m7 



HIR2'45000 



oNCUSSiHEB 



PAGE 6 



addition to tha January 30 btisfing with th« Piesidant? In 
othar words, waza thasa pzoposad additional briaiings with 
tha Prasidant? 

A Wall, wa didn't raally ptoposa mora than ona 
briafing on Nicaragua with tha Prasidant. but ua had thasa 
maatings. you know, at tha OEOB. which ara callad Uhite 
Housa Briaiings. 

fi So, is it your racollaction that thasa notas refer 
to a briafing with soma Uhita Housa amployaa and not tha 
Prasidant? 

A Yas. it says. OEOB thara. 

fi Now, it says down at tha bottom July 17 or 18. 

A Right. 

fi To what yaar doas that raiar, do you baliava? Would 
that ba-- 

A 1985. 

fi So, this would ba notas ralating to tha vary early 
briafings at tha Hhlta Housa? 

A That Is right. 

fi And your first ona wa* In, 1 baliava — 

A 27th o± Juna 1985. 

fi And thasa ara notas ralating to a proposad second 
and third bxlailng following that in Juna ox July of 1985; 
is that corraot? 

A Yas . As you know, tha Housa votad on tha freedom 



Kitte 



197 



NAHE ■■ 
1(48 
149 
ISO 
151 
152 
153 
154 
155 
156 
157 
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159 
100 
161 
162 
163 
16>4 
165 
166 
167 
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171 
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HIR2'4S000 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE 



fighter bill th« 26th or 27th of Juna 1986, and it was over, 
so this would hava baan--I mean useless then for Jul/. 

2 Now. the entry under White House Briefings II in 
your handwriting states. EOB. which I take it refers to 
Executive Office Building? 

A Um-hum. 

2 And then it states 20 individuals at «10,000 each. 

A Um-hun. 

2 And I believe under that it says also appear at 
dinner ? 

A Calero. 

2 Oh, Calero at dinner. 

A Which he had the first briefing. 

2 What does the line 20, individuals at «10.000, mean? 

A I was trying to think of a budget that we could put 
together and how much we could bring in with a small group 
of people. 

2 So, are you indicating there that anyone who attends 
this briefing would be expected to contribute •10,000? 

A He would try to raise 410,000 for our programs from 
each of those Individuals . The reason why each is 
underlined is because sometimes people brought their wives, 
but if you mze going to limit It to 20 people, each person 
counts. 

I am sure you will find throughout all the documents 



FiblAooihcu 



198 



MAKE •■ 
173 

1714 
175 
176 
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ISM 
185 
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19U 
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197 



HIR2U5000 



mmm 



PAGE 8 



of nina , you will iind I an continually bringing 20 psople, 
10,000; 15 p«opla, 15,000. trying to bring a budgat 
toga thar . 

nx. FRYMAN: o££ tha racord. 
[Discussion off tha racord.] 
BY MR. FRYHAH: 

2 What is tha writing on tha naxt lina on that page? 

A Uhita Housa Briaiing III, July — 

8 Ko, abova that it raads — tha last words in tha lina 
ara Uhita Housa. 

A Sonathing into somawhara in Whita Housa Briaiing in 
EOB. 

fi Do you racogniza tha first word? 

A Hayba it is slot--no. 

S All right. 

Turning than, again, to tha paga of notas which you ' 
said was not in your handwriting which has tha 
idantif ication nuabar 79 113, and has tha data indlcatad at 
tha top, 14-7-85, though tha >t is not coaplataly raproducad. 
but that It on tha original. 

Ihaza is an antry on tha bottoa, nuabazad ona and 
two, whioh statas, to raisa «50 K for thalr projacts, and 
than numbaz two, 430 K as thalz faa for tha authorization. 
Do you know what that rafars to — what thosa antrias rafar to? 

A This is not ay nota. 



WlJfiSW 



199 



NAHE 
198 
199 
200 

20 1 
202 
203 
20U 
20S 
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207 
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21 1 
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2 14 
215 
2 16 
217 
2 18 
219 
220 

22 1 
222 



mR2U5000 



aMSife 



PAGE 



2 I realiza that. 

A And so. I an going to--you know, th« 30--I don't know 
what nurabei on* means except that when Dan was negotiating 
with Rich Hiller, this figure of «50,000 was what uas 
suggested that ue as an organization raise to support Calero 
as a grant, and then the number two, the »30,000 as their 
fee for the authorization, is I think part of the $50,000, 
and then when we raised the «50,000, they were going to 
get--Rich Miller was going to get«30,000 to get us the 
exclusive authorization to raise noney for the freedom 
fighters in the United States. 

I don't know whether you call it a finder's fee or-- 

2 Now, does this relate to the «S0,000 check that you 
gave to Mr. Calero, payable to| 

A Later. 

2 Later? 

A It may. 

2 It may. 

A This was three months before that happened, and 
ue--it may. I r«ally--the «SO,000 that we gave to Adolfo, 
frankly, happened to be the amount of money that we raised 
it^z that event that night by accident. I mean, we were 
going to give him everything we raised. 

2 So, there is no direct relationship between this 
reference and that amount? 



yNciASsm 



200 



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22U 
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2U0 
2U1 
2(t2 
2143 
2HH 
2M5 
2146 
2147 



HIR2U5000 



yNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 10 



A I don't think so, no. 

2 But it is your tacollaction that in an early meeting 
uith Rich Miller, he asked that your organizations raise 
»S0.000 for Hr . Calero? 

A Right. 

2 And it was your-- 

A Hinimum. 

2 Miniaun of *50,000. 

A Yes. 

2 And it was youz understanding that he indicated in 
that conversation that of that initial •50,000, 430,000 
would go to Hr . Killer? 

A Possibly. 

2 Well, what do you mean by that? 

A Hell, I mean that is what could have been part of 
the--I did not know what they were going to do with the 
450,000. I didn't know whether Adolio was going to give it 
back to Rich or not. 

Q But apart from this note. Hr . Channell, let me just 
question you about youz reeolleotlon of your conversation 
with Hz. nillez . You recalled nz . Hlllez. in one of the 
Initial oz eazly meetings, asking your organization to raise 
«50,000 for nz. Calezo. oz at least ,«50.000; is that 
correct? 



Right. 



KUSSW 



201 



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HIR24S000 



BHWssro 



PAGE 1 1 



2 And is it corract that thara was also a discussion 
with rtr . Miller about paymant to his organization of a 
«30,000 faa to obtain an authorization from Mr. Calaro for 
you to raisa funds on Calaro's bahalf? 

A Yas. 

2 That IS your racollaction of a conversation with Mr. 
Millar? 

A Yas. 

2 Now, how was that *30,000 faa to ba paid? 

A I don't raaanbar whathar it was to ba paid with feas 
ovar a pariod of tina or thara was just ona chack. 

2 Was it to ba daductad from tha funds that you raised 
for Mr. Calaro? 

A I don't ramaabar that. 

S You are not certain of that? 

A Ua-hun. 

fi But your racollaotion is that there was to ba a 
«30,000 fee to nx. niller? 

A That is right. 

S To obtain authorization ixoa Hx . Catlexo fox you to 
rais* funds for Hr . Calero? 

I Yes. 

S Now. was that 430.000 evex paid by you ox your 
organizations — 

A I don't know. 



«NCIASS!F!ED 



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HIR2145000 



iii«Sife 



PAGE 12 



-for that purposa? 



A I don't know. 

2 nr . Channall, ua talkad yastarday about your 
association with HCPAC, H-C-P-A-C, and Tarry Dolan. Did tha 
organizations that you subsaquantly foundad, NEPL and ACT, 
work with Mr. Dolan or HCPAC in connaction with lobbying for 
tha contra lagislation in 1986 in any way? 

A I put Hr . Dolan on a consultant ratainar to work 
with us. Ha nat with us savaral timas and did a raport for 
ma--I can't ramaiibar avarything that is in tha raport--on tha 
attitudas that ha found in tha consarvativa aonant. tha 
prass, tha talavision madia, tha Congxass, consarvativa 
laadars, toward tha typa of lagislation that tha Prasidant 
was proposing. 

S Wall, apart froa that raport, and wa will coma to 
that latax. 

A Okay. 

2 Has thara any othar coordination? 

A No. 

fi Hith NCPAC7 

A No. I urgad him to do soaathing avary tima I talkad 
to him, but that is all. 

fi All right. 

A I don't think thay did. 

2 Hhat about — what about aKpandituzas or advartisamants 



mimm 



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299 
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30 1 
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32 1 
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HIR2I4S000 



UNCLASSiRED 



PAGE 13 



in connection with Congressional canpaigns in 1986? Has 
thera any coordination between you and your organizations 
and NCPAC? 
A No . 

2 Are you aware of any advertisements, and I an 
speaking now oi both television and newspaper 
advertisements, that NCPAC paid for in connection with a 
Congressional race in Arkansas involving Bill Alexander? 

ns . nORRISON' can we identify what this has to do 
with contra fund-raising? 

MR. FRYn&N: Well, the ads I aa referring to center 
on Mr. Alexander ' S-- 

THE WITNESS: Plane ride — 

MR. FRYMAN: His position on the Nicaragua issue and 
his vote on contra aid, and I — 

THE WITNESS: I thought it was a plane ride that he 
took. 

MR. FRYMAN: Mo. 

THE WITNESS: The answer is no. I still think it 
was a plane ride. Didn't he take — iteybe we could have an off- 
the-record here. Didn't he take a free plane ride 
soaeplace? 

BY m. FRYMAN: 
S What is your understanding of the Issue-- 
A I thought he took a plane ride, m free plane 



imm 



i'MPi I. 



204 



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3^^ 

3U5 
3<46 
3U7 



HIR2U5000 



■ms,vm 



u 



PAGE 1<4 



somaplacft. I dust read about it in tha nauspapars. 

2 Did yout organizations sponsor any talavision 
advar tisanants diractad toward Hr . Alaxandar's District? 

A No. 

2 Did your organization buy ads on tha Marephis 
talavision station? 

A Yas, sonaplaca in Hamphis wa did. 

S And wara thosa purchasad with tha intantion o£ 
diracting an advartisanant into Mr. Alaxandar's District in 
Arkansas ? 

A No. 

S Do you Know an individual naaad Jim Bronta? 

A No. 

e B-r-o-n-t-a? 

A No . 

2 Ara you auara that nr . Bronta or a foundation which 
ha was associatad was paying for any advartisanants in any 
Congrassional alaotions in 1986? 

A Ko. 

e Do you know a Daxryl Glascock. G-1-a-s-c-o-c-k? 

A No. 

S Hava you avar haard oi Hx . Glascock? 

A Ko. 

2 So, I taka it to youz knowladga, you hava navar net 
with a Hz. Glascock? 



wmmm 



205 



3U8 
349 
3S0 
35 1 
352 



miAssffl 



Hi.ni. HIR24S0OO IIIAll I UA.lll ILU page is 



\ Mo. 

2 Old you av«t trav«l to Arkansas in 1985 or 1986 in 
connaction with th« alaction canpaign involving Bill 
Alaxandttz ? 

A Ho. 




V?w*« 



206 



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3714 
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377 



HIRaUSOOO 



RPTS CANTOR 



DCMK MILTOM 



'JNCUSSIFIEO 



PAGE 16 



(10 00 1 

2 Do you knou ii any of your organizations aver paid 
for any advaitis«mant or any caapaign axpansa in support of 
tha opponent of Mr. Alaxandar? 

ns. tlORRISOK: Wa ara not going to talk about any 
organization that ha has avar had any affiliation with. UE 
ara going to talk about tha tima pariod that is ralavant to 
this inquiry. Wa ara going to talk about issuas that ara 
ralatad to tha contras . 

MR. FRYMAN: Fina . I will liitit tha quastion to 
1985 and 1986. 

THE WITNESS: No. 
BY nX. FRYMAN: 

fi Do you knoH an individual nanad Hanry Loab? 

A Is that tha-- 

8 This is an individual who livas in Arkansas. 

A Oh. no. I thought it was tha aditor of tha 
Hanchastaz Union Guardian. 

e Do you know Louis Lahzman? 

A Lou Lahzman. tha guy from Nau York? 

Q Yas, who has tha organization Cltizans for Anarica. 

A I hava sat hlm> yas. 



HSIIASSIFIED 



207 



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uoo 

401 
(402 



HIR2145000 






WMB 



PAGE 17 



2 Do you know an individual nanad Dan O'Connell? 

A No. 

2 To your knouladga, was thaxa any cootdination 
betwaan your organizations and Hr . Lahxman's organization m 
connection Kith lobbying or othar support for tha Nicaraguan 
legislation? 

A No. 

2 Kr . Channall, there was a published report in a 
newspaper naned the Lowell Sun, that profits fron the Iran 
aras transactions had been diverted to your organizations 
and were used in either political canpaigns or m some 
nanner in support of tha President's Nicaragua policy, and 
as I understand it, you have denied those allegations. And 
ny question is, to your knowledge, was there any such 
diversion of funds to any of your organizations or to you 
personally? 

A Never. 

2 Are you aware of any infornation indicating any 
diversion of Iran aras sales profits to any other doaestic 
organization in the United States? 

A No. 

2 Specifically, are you aware of any diversion of 
snoh profits in any way to NCPAC or Terry Dolan or anyone 
associated with them? 

A No. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



208 



NAHE : 
403 
UOU 
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41 1 
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HIR24S000 



ll^,b'L^ssl^i■Jl 



PAGE 18 



fi Aza you awara of any infornation indicating that 
any of tha profits from tha Iran arms salas wara used to 
puzchasa advertising tima on talavision stations for ads 
prepared for your organizations by tha Robert Goodman 
Agency ? 

A No. 

2 Returning to Exhibit 1 for identification, Mr. 
Channell, and if you would turn to the front of the exhibit 
at this point, and I direct your attention to the third item 
in the book, which is a memorandum dated April 19, 1985, to 
Dan Spitz and Crew, and it appears to be signed at tha 
bottom Adam G. Does that refer to Adam Goodman? 

A Yes. 

fi Now, there is a reference in that memorandum uhera 
Mr. Goodman says he is enclosing a summary of the research 
used to define the TV markets selected to reach the 2 1 
targeted congressman, par Rich nillar. 

A Yes. 

fi How did you understand this targeting was done? 

A I think wa discussed that quite extensively 
yesterday. 

fi I am focusing now In connection with the targeting 
in 1985> and tha raiarance In Hr . Goodman's memorandum to 21 
tazgatad congressman, par Rich Hlllez. 

HS. nORRISON: Ha just told you ha explained that 



IJNCIASSIFIEG 



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NAME : 

U28 
429 
430 
143 1 
U32 
U33 
t43U 
1435 
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14140 
14141 
i4t«2 
(4>43 
4414 
UUS 
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448 
449 
450 
451 
452 



HIR245000 
to you. 







l>i 



PAGE 19 



THE WITNESS: That was what ua discussed yesterday. 
BY HR FRYMAN: 

C Was it Hr . Millet who did the targeting? 

A No. 

2 So Mi . Goodnan is wiong heie when he says ''p@r 
Rich Miller' ' ? 

A Well, as I also said yesterday, it was ny feeling 
in 1985 that Congressnan Kuykendall was actually doing this 
research, this type of activity, behind Rich Miller, and for 
a long tine Rich Miller then would present to ne this 
research as if it was from him, but later on we discovered 
that he had been working in close contact with Congressman 
Kuykendall and I think that was probably what he is 
referring to there. 

2 So if I understand youz answer correctly, where Mr. 
Goodman here says that the congressmen were targeted, per 
Rich Miller or by Rich Miller, in effect it was your 
understanding that It was Mr. Kuykendall who was actually 
doing tha tazgating on behalf of Mz . Hlllar? 

A I think that is probably tha truth. 

fi At this point in 1985? 

A Yes . 

fi Kou, in 1985, was Hr . Kuykendall a consultant to 
any of your organizations? 



yNCUISSIfiEO 



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Hknt 

K53 
4514 
KSS 
456 
457 
458 
459 
460 
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470 
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472 
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474 
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477 



HIR245000 



miASSIFlEO 



PAGE 20 



A Ho. 

2 Has h« a consultant or an amploya* of nt . Miller's 
organization? 

A I hava no idaa. 

2 In uhat capacity did you understand ha was doing 
this targating in 1985? 

A As I told you, at that tima I didn't know it was 
not Kich Millar doing it. 

2 But it is now your understanding that it was Mr. 
KuyKandall? 

A I think so. 

2 And do you now hava an undaxstanding of tha 
capacity in which ha was doing this in 1985? 

A Ko . By capacity, you maan-- 

2 Has ha voluntaaring? 

A I don't know that. 

2 Or was ha baing paid by soma othar antity? 

A I don't know that. 

2 Following this paga. Hx . Channall, thara ara 
additional pagas which appaax to ba an anclosuxa with this 
•aaoxandUB, which run iron 36091 through 360103, and that 
appaars to ba tha sumaaxy shaats outlining tha TV buys that 
axa dascrlbad in Hx . Goodman's covaxlng aaao . Thosa shaats 
indicate that tha talavision advartisaaants , as I understand 
it, ara to ba paid iox by the Aaexioan Conservative Trust. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



211 



HAME ■ 
478 
U79 
U80 
481 
482 
483 
484 
48S 
486 
487 
488 
489 
490 
491 
492 
493 
494 
495 
496 
497 
498 
499 
500 
501 
502 



HIR245000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 21 



A Y«s. 

2 What was tha raason in 1985 that tha Amaiican 
ConsQrvativa Trust paid ioz thasa advactisemants , if it is 
correct that it did, and not tha National Endowmant for the 
Preservation of Liberty? 

A This was a lobbying effort, supposed to be a 
lobbying effort. 

2 And any lobbying effort it uas your :udgnent the 
expanses should not ba paid by KEPL, which was a 501(c)(3) 
organization; is that correct? 

A That's right. 

2 If you would look at page 36092, there is a market- 
by-aarkat cost breakdown. 

A Right. 

2 And it indicates nuch mora nonay to ba spent in 
Washington than in the other cities. What was tha raason 
for that? 

A Whara ara you? What was tha raason for that? 

2 Yas. 

A It Has suggested to us that by putting tha ads on 
In Hashinston. wa would gat notice by all tha political 
paopla Inslda tha Beltway as wall as tha adainistration. 

fi Who suggested that? 

A Bob Goodman. 

e And Bob Goodaan is tha creative director of the 



DNCUSSIFIEO 



212 



KAHE • 

503 
SOU 
SOS 
S06 
S07 
SOS 
S09 
510 
51 1 
512 
513 
51>4 
515 
516 
517 
518 
519 
520 
521 
522 
523 
52U 
525 
526 
527 



HIR2US000 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE 22 



Robatt Goodnan Agancy? 

A H« is tha haad of it. 

2 Ha is tha haad of tha agancy? 

A Ha is Adam's fathai. 

2 And it was Bob Goodman's judgmant that tha bulk of 
tha nonay should ba spant in tha Washington maikat? 

A Yas. I maan, it is ona of his rulas that whan you 
do political ads lika this, you should try to always do 
somathing in Washington, haavy covaxaga in Washington. 

2 Thaza is a zafazanca at tha bottom of paga 36092 to 
a contingancy fund of 95.000 to ba appliad to any TV buy 
which zaachas tha Gzaanuich, Connacticut, viauing audlanca. 
What was tha zaason for that? 

A Wa had a contzlbutoz up thaza that ua waza hoping 
to ba abla to show tha ads to on TV. 

2 Was that nzs . Kawington? 

A Yas. Sha had givan soma monay foz that, and wa 
vazy much wantad haz to saa what sha was doing, how it looks 
on talavislon. and I think wa waza having gzaat difficulty 
oz ha was having gzaat difiloulty gatting any talavision 
station to taKa thosa ads, and at tha tlna avidantly ha did 
this, thay didn't think thay could gat on TV. 

ft On paga 36103, which la tha last paga in this 
anelosuza, I guAss It Is paga 10 of tha anolosuza, thaza is 
an indication at tha bottom that all oongzassman listad in 



ONCIASSIFP 



213 



KAHE: 
528 
529 
530 
S3 1 
532 
533 
53U 
535 
536 
537 
538 
539 
5U0 
541 
5142 
5U3 

51ti4 

5(«5 
5(46 
547 
548 
549 
550 
55 1 
552 



HIR245000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 23 



caps aia among tha 21 rapiesentativas targeted by Rich 
Millei . 

Now. ii you will look on page 2 oi the anclosure-- 

A Can you give me the reference nunbez here? 

fi 36095. There is a reference to a buy m the 
Austin, Texas, narket. 

A Yes. 

S And there is no Congressman identified in capital 
letters . 

A Right. 

S But there is a reference to Ellen Garwood as an 
Austin contributor. What was the reason that there was a 
buy in the Austin narket if there was no targeted 
Congressman there? 

A He wanted to show Ellen also what we were doing. 

S And she was one of the major contributors for this 
program? 

A Yes . She wanted it shown in Texas . It 
specifically referred to — I think I mentioned to you 
yesterday th«t we had several, that we did that as part of 
out targeting. He wanted to make sure that the contributors 
were able to see this on their looal stations. 

fi So that is another factor In selecting the media 
markets for these advertisements? 

A Sometimes bigger than you would think. 



UNCIASSIHED 



214 



NAME: 
S53 
5514 
555 
556 
557 
558 
559 
560 
561 
562 
563 
5614 
565 
566 
567 
568 
569 
570 
571 
572 
573 
S7U 
575 
576 
577 



HIRZUSOOO 



ONCUSSlFe 



PAGE 2(« 



HR. FRYHAH: I will ask th« reporter to mark as 
Channell Deposition 2 for identiiication a group of 
accounting schedules which have been prepared by accountants 
for the House and Senate committees, from materials provided 
by Mr. Channell's organization, supplemented by additional 
materials subpoenaed for Mr. Channell's organizations as 
well as the Robert Goodman Agency. 

[The following document was marked as Channell 
Deposition Exhibit ^ f or identification:] 
BY MR. FRYHAK: 

e Hr . Channel^, the first page is analysis 2-A and 
reflects our accountants' summaries of the Channell 
Company's statement of operations fox 1985, and under the 
project expenditures, the first line, there is an entry for 
the Goodman Agency. 

A Right. 

S And there is an indication in the first column of 
KEPI expenditures to the Goodman Agency in 1985 of 
approximately «169,000, and Amezlcan Conservative Trust 
state election fund expenditures of approximately SIIM.OOO. 
Is it youz recollection that in 1985 NZPL did pay for ads 
pzepaxed in time purchased through the Goodman Agency? 

A Yea. 

fi Hhat did those ads relate to7 

A They were not Involved with lobbying > but they were 



UNCLASSIFIED 



215 



NAME 
578 
579 
580 
581 
582 
583 
58U 
585 
586 
587 
588 
589 
590 
591 
592 
593 
594 
595 
596 
597 
598 
599 
600 
601 
602 



HIR2'45000 



u 



iNCLASSIHED 



PAGE 25 



involved with aditorial activitias in Kicaragua on the 
sunnit meeting m the iall, and sonething else. Ue had 
three projects chat ue did TV for. 

2 But the ads that are referred to in the enclosure 
to the memorandum from Adam Goodman dated April 19, it is 
your recollection were paid for by the American Conservative 
Trust? 

A That's correct, they were. 

fi If you uould turn back to Exhibit 1, and the next 
document folloHing the Goodman materials, page 36197, which 
is a telegram addressed to you dated June 6, 1985, from 
Colonel North, thanking you for your help on such short 
notice, do you recall receiving this telegram? 
A Yes. 

S At the time you received it, is it your 
recollection you had not met Colonel Horth? 
A That's correct. 

e Do you knoM why he sent this to you? 
A Yes. I had given a contributor name to Rich 
Miller, who h«d asked ■• li ue could get some money for one 
oi Rich niller's projects, and I gave him the name of the 
person that I thought might help him, and said, '"You call 
him and see if he will help you," and he did, and that 
mrtney went wherever Rich wanted it to go, and then it turns 
out that Rich had— I don't know whether he was talking to 



""miFiB 



216 



HAHE: 
603 
60(4 
605 
606 
607 
608 
609 
6 10 
61 1 
612 
613 

6114 

615 
6 16 
617 
618 
619 
620 
621 
622 
623 
6214 
625 
626 
627 



HIR245000 



UNCLASSm 



PAGE 26 

Colonel Noith or uhat, but anyway, Colonal Nocth sant roe 
this telegian thanking me for helping Rich. 

S Was this contributor John Ransay? 

A Yes. 

2 And is it youz understanding this reference led to 
a «10,000 contribution by fir. Ransey? 

A Or because of it. I mean, it happened. This came 
I think sometime after he had done that for Rich. 

2 That's correct, but your referring Mr. Ramsey to 
Hr . Miller — 

A Yes. 

fi --led to a «10,000 contribution by Mr. Ramsey? 

A That's right. 

2 And it is your understanding that this telegram is 
in effect thanking you for your assistance in obtaining that 
contribution? 

A EKactly. 

2 Has this the first time you heard of Colonel Korth? 

A Ko. Rich Killer had talked to me about him, and I 
had heard about him during the Nloaraguan refugee fund 
dinner preparations . I had heard his name bandied about by 
that staff, but I had not met him. 

e In this telegram, he addresses you by your first 
name or by youz niokname Spitz? 



Right. 



immsim 



217 



NAME : 
628 
629 
630 
631 
632 
633 
634 
635 
636 
637 
638 
639 
6U0 
6(41 
6142 
643 
6<4<4 
6145 
6>46 
647 
6U8 
649 
650 
651 
652 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR24S000 llllljlHlJllll ILU ''*'^^ 27 

2 Kara you surprisad to gat a talegram from him 
addressing you in that fashion? 

A I didn't raally think anything about it, frankly. 

2 Turning to tha following pagas in this volume, Mr. 
Channell, numbered 34905 through -907, am I correct that 
this was a list of tha proposed participants in the June 27, 
1985. briefing at tha White House? 

A Yes. the ones that wa thought were coming. 

2 Who prepared this list? 

A Oh, I think this is probably from our office. I 
don't know which saczatary did it, but I think it's from our 
office . 

2 And it was following this briefing on June 27 that 
tha check for «50,000 was presented to Hz. Calaro; is that 
correct? 

A Exactly. 

2 Turning to tha next two pages, one is numbered 
37810 and one is nuabarad 34802, and tha^t are two separate 
copies of a latter to you fzom Colonel Nozth dated August 
15, 198S. Do you zeeall racaivlng this lattaz? 

A Oh. yes, I do*. 

fi Hhat is tha reason that thaza is a confidential 
staap on ona copy, which is page 34802, and tha stamp does 
not appear on tha other copy? 

A I think my oziginal that I have fzamad at t^a house 



^fiimsim 



218 



NAME : 
653 
654 
655 
656 
657 
658 
659 
660 
661 
662 
663 
66U 
665 
666 
667 
668 
669 
670 
671 
672 
673 
67U 
675 
676 
677 



HIR2U5000 



IS this. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 28 



2 Is which? 

A Th« first one, th« non-confidential. I think when 
ua sant this out to th« world, wa put confidential on it. 

2 So tha confidential stanp was placed on there by 
someone in your organization? 

A Yes. 

2 What was the reason for that? 

A To heighten the interest of people in reading the 
letter. It's what you might call a marketing technique, but 
my original framed at tha house doesn't have any 
confidential . 

2 Uhat use did you make of this letter? 

A Ue sent it to the people that I knew around the 
country, as many as I could list, to show people that ue 
were trying to help the President and that help was being 
noticed, and we were getting a response from the White 
House. I think everybody that was on this list that came to 
the meeting got a copy of the letter. Lots of people wanted 
to come to the meeting that I knew got a copy of the latter 
who couldn't come, mailed it all over the country, hundreds 
and hundreds and hundreds of copies. 

fi Was there a cover letter that went with it? 

A X think we sent it with a whole paoket of 
information. We had gotten some very good brochures from 



UNCUSSIFIED 



219 



NAnE' 
678 
679 
680 
681 
682 
683 
6814 
685 
686 
687 
688 
689 
690 
691 
692 
693 
69>4 
695 
696 
697 
698 
699 
700 
70 1 
702 



HIR2145000 



llNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 29 



tha Stattt Dapattraant . They wars publishing books,, not books 
but pamphlets on what was happening in Kicaiagua. Ue took 
the material that ue received on the 27th oi June iron the 
public liaison office. They had speeches by the President. 
They had statements by the Secretary of State. They had 
articles fron magazines, all types of things, and put them 
all together in packets, enclosed this letter, and sent it 
all over the country. 

2 An I correct that you used this letter then m your 
efforts to raise additional funds? 

A I don't know whether w* were asking for money when 
ue did that. Ky deal with this was to tell people that ue 
were out there working, and to send it to everybody who had 
supported us on Nicaragua so far that year, to show that 
their activities had some effect. 

2 Did you consider that distributing a letter 
addressed to you iron a staff member of the National 
Security Council added additional credibility to your 
organization? . . 

A Sure. mS I said yestszday. anyone who works in the 
White Hous* that will help and give any credit to any 
organization Is respected, appreciated. 

fi Did you know who wrote this letter? 

A No. 

S Did you request It? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



220 



NAME: 

703 
7014 
705 
706 

lai 

708 
709 
710 
71 1 
712 
713 

7m 

715 
716 
717 
718 
719 
720 
721 
722 
723 
724 
725 
726 
727 



HIR214S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 30 



A I had askad, sav«iaJ. tin*s ask«d Rich Hillei if we 
could gat a thank-you lattar somatina for oux affoits. and 
ha said mayba . As you know, tha bill was passad in Hay oi 
Juna, and this is thzaa months latar, so thara was nothing 
going on in July oc August that would hava any ralevanca . 

S Do you know if Hz. Millar was involvad in drafting 
this lattar? 

A I raally don't know. Ka may hava baan, bacause I 
think that was part oi his activity, but I hava no idea if 
ha did. 

2 In tha sacond paragraph, Colonal Korth says that 
your paid advertising in support of tha President's program 
''was critical to our success.'' Do you agree with that 
statement? 

A Uall, I would like to think so. I have always 
believed that the more people help, the greater chance of 
success. The fewer people help, the less chance of success > 
and with this type oi thing, unless you do a very great deal 
of in-depth track polling aitezwazds, you can't be sura what 
impact you have had, and so I have never gone around the 
country saying we did this, that or the other. I have 
always been pleased that we had the opportunity to help, but 
I just don't believe any one activity in politics is most of 
the time decisive. Once in a while that is true, but to my 
knowledge and experience, it takes a whole group of 



UNClASSra 



221 



NAME ■■ 
728 
729 
730 
731 
732 
733 
73U 
735 
736 
737 
738 
739 
740 
7m 
7U2 
743 
7I4U 
7US 
746 
747 
7K8 
749 
750 
751 
752 



HIR245000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 31 



activities to nova somathing. and ua uaca just doing one, 
but I appiaciatad that anyway. 

2 Tha vota occurrad In Juna of 1985? 

A I think that was tha final Kousa vota that tima . I 
think thay votad two or thraa tiaas on that bill, starting 
in tha 18th of March or somathing. 

fi If you would look at tha naxt pagas , which are two 
pagas froB tha Goodman Agancy that hava yout numbars 756 18 
and 75619. which ara datad August, 1985. and rafar to a 
fraadom spots talavision placaaant proflla: costs and 
oparations . What was this plan or progran? 

A Wa wara going to do soaa ads. I aa trying to 
think. Ha did vary, vary faw. if any. as a nattar of fact, 
on t ais . 

2 ny naxt quastion was. was this iaplaitentad? 

A I think a littla aayba. 

2 But bafora you answar that quastion. what was tha 
purposa of this progzan. if thara was no panding Hicaragua 
lagislation? 

A It wasn't part of Kicazagua. It was sonathlng alsa 
wa wara going to do. soma othar program. Ua did sonathlng 
on tha Mth of July. You know somathing, isn't that 
ridiculous, I raally don't ramambar. 

2 So tha caption at tha top '' Fraadom Spots'' is not 
a caption that rafazs to advaztisamants ralatad to 



UNCLASSIRED 



222 



NAME : 

753 
7514 
75S 
756 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 
762 
763 
76U 
765 
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767 
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769 
770 
77 1 
772 
773 
77M 
775 
776 
777 



HIR214S000 



Nicaragua? 



liiiuLASoiFlEO 



PAGE 32 



A I don't think so. Again, as I told you yasterday. 
Bob Goodman antitlad thesa ads with phrasas that somatimas I 
didn't know, thay may ba rafarring to somathing alsa, but 
this was aitar, of coursa, tha fcaadon fightar bill was 
passed, long aftaz at this point. 

S Turning to tha naxt paga, which is 2969U, which is 
a copy of a talagran from Colonal North to Hr . A.R. Hixon, 
and It is datad Saptambar 13, 1985, who is Mr. Hixon? 

A Ha is a iriand of itina in Dallas, or Arlington, 
Taxas, actually. 

2 And did you arranga for Colonal North to maat with 
Hr . Hixon during tha saaa trip whara ha mat with Mr. Hunt 
and Mrs. Garwood? 

A Yas. 

2 Is Hr . Hixon--has ha baan a contributor to your 
organization? 

A Ya*. 

S Do you know ii Colonal North dlscussad with him any 
of tha naadt o£ tha rasistanca ilghtazs in Nicaragua? 

A I mainly introducad Ralph to Colonal North bacausa 
Rmlph is a vary closa friand oi mina > and Ralph is a vary 
davotad Christian, and tha only thing I know about that 
maating is that thay sharad a prayar togathar. 

S Kara you prasant? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



223 



mmm 



Hxni- HiR2<450oo llklil| AvVlplrll P'^''^ 33 

778 A 

779 e How do you know what occurrad during th« maating? 

780 A Bacausa I saw than through tha glass praying, and 

781 tha raaating I think lastad fiva winutas or so. 

782 2 Uhara did tha naating occur? 

783 A In tha airport, Lova Fiald in Dallas. 

78U 2 Turning to tha naxt paga, which is nunbarad 300314, 

785 which is a mamorandun to Rich and Frank from Don Conrad. 

786 A Yas. 

787 2 Datad Saptaabar 30. 1985, eoncarning objactivas, I 

788 taka it Rich and Frank rafars to Richard Miliar and Frank 

789 Goaaz? 

790 A Yas. 

791 2 Is that youz undarstandlng? 

792 A Sura. 

793 2 In this maBorandua Hr . Conrad lists various 
79i« raquiraaants for tha nonth oi Ootobaz, including savaral 

795 naatings with Ptasldant Raagan and your contributors. Wara 

796 you and Hz. Conzad thinking at this point oi tha iaportanca 

797 oi arzanglng aaatlngs with tha Pzasldant and youz 

798 contzlbutozs7 

799 A Yaa, but wa had thought about that six aonths aha?d 

800 oi tlaa. 

80 1 2 Had you suocaadad In Saptaabaz, 1985, In azranging 

802 any oi thosa aaatlngs? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



224 



NAHE: 
803 
SOU 
805 
806 
807 
808 
809 
810 

81 1 
812 
813 
81M 
815 
816 
817 
818 
819 
820 

82 1 
322 
823 
824 
825 
826 
827 



HII1245000 



Ho. 



yNCUSsra 



PAGE 314 



2 Hou many did you succaad in aiianging baioie you 
latainad David Fischar? 

A On* 

2 And that was with His. Nawington? 

A Yas . 

2 How was that aziangad? 

A Through Rich Hillaz. 

2 Did you attaapt to aczanga othats? 

A Yas. U» had givan his a list of paopla wa thought 
tha Prasidant should tzy to thank ioz thaiz halp, but ha 
didn't do it. 

2 And you Indlcatad yastazday that ona of tha zaasons 
foz zataining David Fischaz was to hopafully achiava gzaataz 
succass in accass to tha Oval Oiflca foz youz contzibutors ; 
is that cozzact? 

A That was ona oi tha objactivas. 

2 Thaza aza savazal raiazaneas in this maaozandun to 
Pat Buchanan, pazticulazly Unas 8 and 12. Had you had any 
contact with Hz. Buchanan at tha tlaa oi this aanozandua? 

A Z think I may hava mat hla onca . 

2 Do you know If Hz. Conzad had had any daalings with 
hla? 

A I don't think so. 

9 Do you know i.i Hz. Hillaz had? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



225 



MAHE: HIR2U50001 



MU^SSlHtl) 



PAGE 35 



828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
83M 
83S 
836 
837 
838 
839 
8U0 
841 
8i|2 
843 
8>«4 
8<45 
846 
847 
848 
849 
850 
851 
852 



A I don't think so. 

2 Is it your undarstanding that Kr . Buchanan had any 
lola in thtt tazgating of congzassnan for your advertisements 
earlier in 1985? 

A No. 

fi What did you understand Hr . Buchanan's role was in 
connection with Nicaragua in 1985, ii any? 

A I thinK it was a public understanding that he was 
trying to help inspire the President on Nicaragua. I'm not 
sure. I guess he was just the new comnunications director 
at that tine . 

fi Uas it your understanding that he had any role m 
the lobbying campaign in 1985? 

A I don't even think he was in the White House then. 

S So the answer is no? 

A Oh, yes. No. 

S Is it your understanding that he had any role in 
the lobbying caapaign in 1986? 

A I assuae — I aean he wrote the article for the 
newspaper, which made a lot of Democrats on the Hill very 
mad, and X suppose he was working with Hhite House lobbying. 
I don't know. He was doing nothing with us. 

fi Are you aware of any role he had in targeting 
congressmen? 



A KO. 



mmw 



^^9 



226 



UNCMSSIFIED 



NAHE: HIR2<4r.000 Wl 1 ULlllJlJI I 11 11 PAGE 36 



8S3 
85<4 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 
861 
862 
863 
86(4 
865 
866 
867 
868 
869 
870 
871 



a In 1986? 

A Ko. 

Q Th« next pages in. in Exhibit 1, lit. Channttll, which 
hava nunbars 3>4899 through -90t«, and than 35539 and 37516 
ail lalata to parsons attending tha Octobar btiafing or tha 
program, tha Octobar briafing; is that correct? 

A Yas. 

e And wara thasa pages prepared by your organization, 
if you recall? 

A I don't know. They look very well organized. 

e Does that indicate that they were or were not 
prepared by your organization? 

A Haybe not. 

fi Are these pages consistent with your recollection 
o£ the individuals who were invited? 

A Yes. 

fi To attend the October briaiing and the progran of 
tha briefing and the dinner aitex the brleilng? 

A Yes . 



iiNCUssm 



227 



HAHE: 

872 
873 
8714 
875 
876 
877 
878 
879 
880 
881 
882 
883 
88t« 
885 
886 
887 
888 
889 
890 
89 1 
892 
893 
89U 
895 
896 



HIR2(4SOOO 



DCMH MILTOM 



UNCUISSIFIED 



PAGE 37 



2 Turning than to tha following pag«s, 314922, 3i49i3 
and 270814, axa thosa similar pag«s with rasp«ct to the 
Movanbar briafing? 

,A Yas, thosa first two ara a briafing, obviously at 
tha Hhita Housa is a briafing. 

a And thosa pagas ara consistant with your 
racollaction of tha parsons invltad to attand? 

A Yas. 

& Tha Movanbar briafing and tha program of tha 
Novambar briafing as raflactad on 2708i«? 

A Yas. 

fi Is that corract? 

A Yas . 

2 Tha naxt paga. 29887, is a lattar to you from Hr . 
Calaro datad Dacambar S, 1985. 

A Right. 

e In tha naxt to tha last paragraph thara is a 
stataaant that "wa naad «50,000 through tha holiday saason. 

Plaasa halp us to sustain thosa who hava stayad bahind so 
that thosa of us on tha front Unas can surviva . ' ' What did 
you undarstand this raquait to Involva? 

Lat aa raphrasa tha eiuastlon in anothar way. You 
indlcatad yastarday that tha origin of tha Toys account was 



UNCUSSIRED 



228 



NAME- 

897 
898 
899 
900 

90 1 
902 
903 
90K 
905 
906 
907 
908 
909 
910 

91 1 
912 
913 
91i» 
915 
916 
917 
918 
919 
920 
921 



HIR2US000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 38 



a raquast for funds for nr . Calaro. 

A That's correct. 

2 Around Christmas of 1985. Is this lattar ralated 
to tha craation of tha Toys account? 

A That's corract. 

fi And you astablishad tha account aftar racaiving 
this lattar> and any funds that you raisad in responsa to 
this lattar vara attributed to that account; is that 
corract? 

A Wall, wa uara going to try to raisa monay for about 
a Bonth and a half at Christmas tiaa. and into January, and 
put all of that monay in this Toys ladgar. separata from 
everything else ua were doing, so we wouldn't lose it, and 
then write him a cheek. 

fi And is that what you did? 

A Hall, we wrote him a 26 — we weren't able to raisa 
all that we hoped, but we did give him «2S,000 later. 

S And that was funds that you sent directly to ona of 
Hr . Calexo's accounts, and you did not send those funds 
through Hz. Hlller's accounts mt IBC or in the Cayman 
Islands? 

A Absolutely correct. 

fi Turning to the next page, which has your number 
78820. and it's dated December 18. 1985. and it's headed at 
the top, ''As of today. 43 groups have agreed to be 



IINCUJSIFIEO 



229 



NAME: 
922 
923 
92>4 
925 
926 
927 
928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
93U 
935 
936 
937 
938 
939 
9>t0 
9"41 
9>42 
9143 
9<(U 
914S 
9U6 



HIR24S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 39 



paiticipating organizations.'' What do you undacstand this 
to ba a list of? 

A This is a list oi all thosa organizations that were 
going to participata in tha annual Consarvativa Political 
Action Committaa coniaranca that is hald iormally late in 
January or Fabruary oi avary y«ar> and this was an enclosure 
to all of tha participants tailing tham that all of these 
other people ware participating. 

fi Uhara was this coniaranca hald in January of 1986? 

A Hare in Washington. It's an annual event, been 
going on for 10> 15. 20 years. 

fi It's always hald hara in Washington? 

A It's always hald in Washington, either in very late 
January or February. Tha President has always spoken. It's 
a three-day seminar, pep-rally deal. 

fi Who organizes this seainar? 

A The American Consaxvative Union in conjunction with 
(43 othat groups. li I might say. this was sent to me 
because thay sent us a draft of tha magazine that they put 
out, and all these people were going to gat mentioned, and 
thay ware sanding this out to show who was doing what and 
asking us to buy soma ads in tha magazine, that is why the 
name is olzolad. 

fi One of tha organizations on there Is Grow 
Washington, and your name is by that. I ballewa you 



UNCLASSinED 



230 



UNCUSSIFIED 



NAHE: HIR245000 — — - . ww - - ■■■v p^gj ^^ 



9147 
9U8 
9149 
950 
951 
952 
953 
951* 
955 
956 
957 
958 
959 
960 
961 
962 
963 
9614 
965 
966 
967 
968 
969 
970 
971 



indicatad yastaxday that that was always an inactlva 
oiganization; is that corract? 

A That's tight. 

Q Tha shaat indicatas that it was pcapaxad by an 
individual namad Tish. Oo you know who lish is? 

A I guass it's thaiz saczatary wozKing on tha 
coniazanca . 

fi Thaza is also a handwzittan nota at tha bottom to 
you izoii Bob Dolan. 

A Yas . Bob Dolan was tha haad oi, I think. Young 
Anazicans ioz Fzaadon, who at this coniazanca was daposad 
by--aithaz sat by tha Pzasidant on Pziday night and ha was 
votad out oi oiiica at 2=00 a.m. Satuzday mozning in tha 
hotal zoom. 

[Discussion oii tha zacozd. ] 
BY HR. rRYHAN: 

2 Do you know li Bob Dolan was zalatad to Tazzy 
Dolan? 

A Thaza is no zalatlon at all. 

fi Do you know li Bob Dolan has avaz had any position 
in tha Zxaoutiva Bzanch oi govaznaant? 

A Z don't think so. 

fi Tuznlng to tha naxt paga, 7573^ and 75737, which 
appaazs to ba an accounts slgnatuza cazd ioz tha Kational 
Endowmant ioz tha Pzasazvation oi Llbazty at tha Izving 



"NCDISSm 



231 



NAME 
972 
973 
97U 
97S 
976 
977 
978 
979 
980 
981 
982 
983 
98M 
985 
986 
987 
988 
989 
990 
991 
992 
993 
994 
995 
996 



HIR245000 



UNCIASSIRED 



PAGE m 



Savings Association, and it app«ais to hava your signature 
on It, did NEPL have an account at th« Irving Savings 
Association? 

A Yes. 

2 Where was that located? 

A Irving, Texas. 

2 What was the reason you had an account in Irving, 
Texas ? 

A One of my devoted friends called ne up and said, 
'•I want to help NEPL. I'm going to give you «5,000, and I 
would like you to put it in the Irving Savings Bank in 
Texas, and as my help for NEPL, I'm going to let you keep 
the dividends . ' ' 

fi And that was the reason for opening this account? 

A So far as the dividends have amounted to maybe «12, 
maybe a little bit more than that. 

2 Have there ever been any funds of any of your 
organizations deposited at the Irving Savings Association? 

A Ko. 

fi Other than that *S,000? 

A No. I'm not sure why this contribution was given 
in the way it was, but we have appreoiated everything from 
tlae to time . 

fi Hho was the donor oi that amount? 

A A Hr . Sommers, S-o-m-a-e-r-s , Charles Sommers. 



ONCIASSIHED 



232 



KAKE : 

997 
998 
999 
1000 
100 1 
1002 
1003 
10014 
1005 
1006 
1007 
1008 
1009 
1010 
1011 
1012 
1013 
101U 
1015 
1016 
1017 
1018 
1019 
1020 
1021 



HIR214S00O 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE <42 



fi Turning to th« next itam. rtr . Channell. this is a 
naaoranduit that begins on 75677, and continuas through 
75^90, you referred earlier to a consulting arrangement that 
your organization had entered into with Terry Dolan. Uas 
this memorandum one oi the products of that consulting 
arrangement? 

A Yes. 

2 What was the reason for retaining Mr. Dolan as a 
consultant? 

A If I might answer that in a larger framework, this 
was a specific proposal from Hz. Dolan to us for lobbying, 
and we had asked 10 to 15 organizations in Washington to 
submit to us proposals for our entire program on Kicaragua, 
as if they would get the contract to manage the program, and 
help it subcontract out to other people, to manage a very 
great program, and we asked for general proposals from at 
least 10 to 15 organizations in Washington. 

Terry Dolan, you may not know, had an independent 
firm, and this was prepared by his independent firm for 
submission to u> . proposing that he do this part of the work 
for our progzaa, and this was his original formal proposal 
on the lobbying. 

fi Ab Z correct that the proposal was not accepted? 

A That's right. 

fi Hhat were the other organizations that were asked 



*UOTf|) 



233 



NAME : 
1022 
1023 
102U 
1025 
1026 
1027 
1028 
1029 
1030 
1031 
1032 
1033 
103U 
1035 
1036 
1037 
1038 
1039 
10(40 

lom 

10142 
10>43 
lOMU 
1045 
1046 



HIR2U5000 



mUSSIFIED 



PAGE 143 
to submit proposals of this sort, as you recall? 

A Edelnan, who eventually helped us out a lot. 
Edelman actually was the one chosen, xn conjunction with 
IBC, to help co-manage this entire program, and I'm sure you 
have talked to Dan Conrad in his ' ' to do'* list from 
September through December, 1985, there are all these 
strange names and groups of strange names that appear once, 
and It's from all these public relations and lobbying firms 
all over Washington. In fact, we even went to New York 
twice to talk to people . 

Q Do you recall the nanes of any others? 

A No. They are the big ones, though. 

2 Was Bozel and Jacobson? 

A He was one of them, Blackman. I think, was one of 
them. I'm not in that business anymore. In fact, I wasn't 
allowed--Dan said that I should not meet with any of them, 
because X poisoned the waters all the time by coaching them, 
and there axe many that X didn't meet that he met for three 
months with these different groups all over the place. 

fi Has nx . Conxad the one who selected the firms to be 
asked to subait proposals? 

A Yes, he was, right. 

e Has nx. Oolan paid fox subaltting this pxoposal? 

A Ko . He was paid fox his advice to us. 

S Hhich was unxelated to this pxoposal? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



234 



10147 
10(48 
1049 
10S0 
10S1 
1052 
1053 
lOSU 
1055 
1056 
1057 
1058 
1059 
1060 
106 1 
1062 
1063 
106U 
1065 
1066 
1067 
1068 
1069 
1070 
1071 



HIRZUSOOO 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE Ui4 



A Yes. It wasn't patt of this. Oi coursa, part o£ 
his brains usta in it. but it was not dixactly ralated to 
carrying out this proposal. 

2 Uhat was tha nana of his company? 

A I don't ramanbar. Ha had anothar ventura that ha 
was working with it that did not work. I raally don't 
ramambar . 

S What usa did you maka of this proposal submitted by 
Mr. Dolan, if any? 

A Wa rajactad it. 

Q Did you usa any of tha idaas in it? 

A Not diractly that I racall. Tha philosophy of it, 
of coursa. was incocporatad in our thinking, whan ha halped 
us out during tha wlntax as a consultant. I'lt sura ha 
rafarrad to soma of this. 

Q If you would turn, Mr. Channall. to tha raar 
saction of this voliuia. and tha aamorandun with tha haading 
''Cantral Anarlsan fxaadOB Prograa. ' ' which bagins at paga 
335>46 and runs through 33559. 

A Got you. right. 

Q What was tha origin of tha maaorandua that I hava 
just idantlilad haadad ''Cantral Aaarican Fraadom Program,'* 
and whan I say what is tha origin, who praparad this 
maaoranduB? 

A I had Hxittan soaa of tha draft for it, and Rich 



UNCUSSIFIED 



235 



NAHE: 
1072 
1073 
1074 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
lOSU 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 



HIK2t45000 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE US 



Millsi's group foimalizad it, daiinad it, and put it 
togathar . 

S Hhan uas this namoxandum finaiizad? 

A I think ua had thasa in tha uintar oi '86, uhich 
would ba tha aarly paxt oi '86. This uas. I think, ona o£ 
tha onas ua had ptintad and distzibutad throughout tha 
uorld . 

fi Has this pcapazad by tha tima oi tha January 30, 
1986, Whita Housa briaiing? 

A It should hava baan. I don't knou uhathar ua had 
had it printad oz not, but that uas our goal, to hava it for 
that naating. Ha night hava just had it Xaroxad bacausa of 
tha printing taking longar than wa thought. 

fi And it uas uldaly distributad? 

A Yas, ua iiailad this all ovar tha placa, to tha 
prass. Evary tima ua had a prass coniaranca in '86, this 
uas ona oi tha anclosuzas ioz tha prass. 



"wussm 



236 



VNCIASSIFIED 



NAHE' HIR2U5000 wl lULf^lli 1 1 1 S I 1 1 PAGE U6 



1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
109U 
1095 
1096 
1097 
1098 
1099 
1 100 
1 101 
1 102 
1 103 
1 10U 
1 105 
1106 
1107 
1108 

I 109 

II 10 
1111 
1 1 12 
1113 



RPTS HAZUR 
DCKN DONOCK 
11:00 a.m. 

2 Now, wh«n you say you had It printad--! naan. you had 
a typasat in a fashion diiiatant than tha copy that is in 
Exhibit 1? 

A Oh, yas. This was in a blua bindat. 

S So, it wasn't a mattat — whan you say printing, it 
wasn't a mattar of just running this ofi--it was a typasat, 
nora formally piintad brochura. 

A Right. 

fi Was tha Cantral Amarlean Fraadom Program brochura or 
manoranduB basadon tha proposal by Hr. Oolan which wa hava 
baan discussing? 

A No . I think this was alraady in tha procass of 
baing dona, baeausa wa had workad on this a lot in aarly 
Dacambar, or throughout DaeambaXf and I think wa bagan 
talking with hla in mid-Januazy. vary closa to tha maating. 

fi Wall. Hz. Dolan's proposal is datad January 6, 1986. 

A Hall, tha maating was what, two, thraa waaks latar. 

fi But it is your raeollaotion that you bagan drafting 
tha Cantral Amarican rraadom Program in Daeambar of 198U? 

A Oz aazliar. 

fi And you workad on tha initial draft? 

A Yas. 



UNCLASSIHED 



237 



NAME- 

1 1 14 
1 1 15 
1116 
1117 
1 1 18 
1119 
1 120 
1121 
1 122 
1123 
1 12t« 
1 125 
1 126 
1 127 
1 128 
1 129 
1 130 
1131 
1 132 
1 133 
1 1314 
1 135 
1 136 
1 137 
1 138 



HIR2US00O 



'ML&B 



PAGE M7 



2 And Mr. Millar worked on th« draft? 

A Yas. 

2 Was Mr. Fischftr involved in this draft? 

A I don't r«m«nber that ha was. 

2 Who elsa do you racall was involved in preparing 
this nanorandun? 

A Hall, Dan Conrad would have gotten a chance to hack 
It up, and I imagine Dan Kuykendall would have had a chance 
to look at it also. I an not sura that he did, but 
just — think. 

8 Do you recall anybody else? 

A Not really. 

fi Off the record. Hhy don't we take a five-ninute 
break at this point? 
[ Recess . ] 
BY MR. rRYHAN- 
2 Hr. Channell, do you know if the iie«orandu» that ue 
have been discussing on the Central Anerican rreedon Program 
was given to Colonel North either in its written form or in 
the printed form? 

A I did not give it to him, but I have a very strong 
^•li*i that it was given to him because we were dealing with 
him, talking about the program, excited about the program, 
discussing the types of activities we were hoping to engage 
in with the program. 



DNCUSXIflfO 



238 



ONCLASSIFIED 



NAME: HIR2it5000 V P « V ILf lii V* ? i !!lnU PAGE <48 



1 139 
1 1U0 
1 141 
1 1U2 
1 1U3 
I 1>4>4 
1 1U5 
1 1(t6 
1 147 
1 lUS 
1 1119 
1 150 
1151 
1 152 
1153 
1 1SU 
1155 
1156 
1157 
1158 
1159 
1 160 
1 161 
1162 
1163 



It uas usad at all of tha bxiaiings — if it wasn't 
usad at tha January 1, it uas usad iron than on out, bacause 
it was printad. I think, shortly tharaaftar, and it uas 
handad out at all oi tha briailngs. 

Rich Millar was instrunantal, of coursa, in this, 
and it is my baliai that ha was in contact with Colonel 
Korth from tima to tima about thasa activitias. I just--I 
just baliava--and than it is vary posslbla San Conrad 
actually gava him a copy. 

Q Uas Colonal North consultad In connaction with tha 
drafting of this mamorandum? 

A Ko, not by ma, nor by my Instruction. 

fi And you ara not awara of any consulting with him 
about — in connaction with tha drafting of tha mamo? 

A Ko . Ona raason why I would not hava avan hava 
thought of it was that I hava conslstantly baliavad that ha 
ICnaw vary llttla about domastle politics and tha domastic 
political alactlon campaign procass. I don't think--othar 
than tha fact that ha was conoarnad about opposition in tha 
Congrass to tha fraadom flghtar blll> I don't think I avar 
haard hla mantion anything about domastic politics. 

fi Did you avar hava any discussions with Colonal Korth 
about tazgatlng Congrassman? 

A No. 

fi Did tha mamorandum which ua hava baan discussing on 



J 



VHmssm 



239 



1 16U 
1 165 
1 166 
1 167 
1 168 
1 169 
1 170 
1 171 
1 172 
1 173 
1 174 
1 175 
1 176 
1 177 
1 178 
1 179 
1 180 
1 181 
1 182 
1183 
1 18(4 
1 185 
1 186 
1 187 
1 188 



\immm 



HIR2M5000 Ul lUL rilllllil II II PAGE <49 
tho Cftntral Amazican Fiettdom Program bacona tha outline for 
tha public aducation lobbying campaign that your 
organizations iollouad in 1986? 

A Tha philosophy of thosa projects is deeply embedded 
in that. As you know, since wa had to raise money as ua 
want along, soma of tha programs ua could do, soma of the 
programs ua couldn't do. Soma of tha programs ua could do a 
little of. A lot of tha television ua could not do because 
ua uara not able to raise enough of tha money ue hoped to 
raise in time. 

Soma of tha speakers' programs had to be curtailed 
because of money and time, but tha philosophy and tha ideal 
situation uas in that — embedded In that document. 

fi If you would turn nou in Exhibit 1 to a letter which 
you sent to Hrs . Julius Pierce dated January 16, 1986, and 
it is a document numbered 29521 — 

A Why don't you just let ma use yours? They are not 
consecutive . 

HR. FRYHAM: Off tha record. 

[Discussion off tha record.] 

nx. ntYMAN: Could you read the question back? 

(Hhereupon, the tepoxtax read tha record as 
dlzeotad. ] 

HK. FKYnAN: As wall as what appears to be the 
enclosure to that letter, which are documents 29522 through 



WUSSIFIED 



240 



NAME : 
1 189 
1 190 
119 1 
1 192 
1 193 
1 19(4 
1 195 
1 196 
1 197 
1 198 
1199 
1200 
1201 
1202 
1203 
120U 
1205 
1206 
1207 
1208 
1209 
1210 
121 1 
1212 
1213 



HIR214S000 



KIASSIFIED 



25--ot through 29525. My quastion patticularly-- 

THE UITNESS : Thes« aia a yaar apart. January 16, 
1986; rabruary-narch, 1987. It is impossibl* to hava sent 
this as an anclosura, with all dua raspact. 
BY HR. FRYMAK: 

Q Wall, you hava indicatad that pagas 29522 hava 
raiarancas to avants in 1987. Would you look at tha 
substanca of thosa pagas and saa i£ that rafrashas your 
racollaction. if thara was such a program in 1987? 

A Thara was not. 

e Thara was not. So, doas that indlcata to you that 
tha 1987--on thasa pagas is a typographical arror, and it 
raally rafars to 1986. 

A No. This is a program that I hopad to carry out 
during tha tlma pariod whan tha *U0 million was baing 
dabatad again hera in Congrass this yaar, and wa wara going 
to try to carry out a grass-roots program tha rast of this 
yaar. Wa didn't know whathar tha tO million was going to 
gat votad on. That is why you notioa it is Fabruary and 
March, baoausa that was tha tlma frama in which wa thought 
it might hmppan. 

Z wrota this, I think, in January of 1987, hoping 
that wa could gat somathlng startad. Wa navar did, but it 
is not at all ralatad to my lattar a yaar prior to Mrs. 
Piarca. Ara you trying to ralata tham? 



imssiHEy 



241 



NAME ■■ 
12m 
1215 
12 16 
12 17 
12 18 
1219 
1220 
1221 
1222 
1223 
12214 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123>4 
1235 
1236 
1237 
1238 



UNCLASSIFIfO " 



HiR2U5000 lliaiil U.^l.tll II II PAGE 51 

2 Wall, you havtt answ«red my question. I was trying 
to dataimin«> numboi one, if th«y uaiA talatad. 

A Oh. I sa«. 

2 And your answer is thay ara not. I was also trying 
to determina if this document was related to the Central 
American Freedom Program memorandum that ue have been 
discussing . 

A Ko. 

fi I had--bacausa of the order in which the materials 
were produced with the numbering sequence, it had appeared 
at least on first viewing that this was the enclosure, and 
the 1987 reference was a typographical error, but in 
response to ay question, your answer is that is not the 
case, and the dates are correct and this was not the 
enclosure . 

A Correct. 

2 And this relates to a planned program in 1987 that 
never occurred. 

A Correct. 

ns. nORRISON' sure, it will amaze you the things 
that were planned in January of this year were overtaken by 
events in subsequent months, and many of them didn't get 
fulfilled. 

HK. rKYMAN: All right. 
BY HR. rRYnXN: 



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HIR2U5000 ii>: ?^'!i„f !>V< V.'''^ (J,-ilW PAGE 52 

fi Turning to tha naxt sarias of documents-- 

A I an soity; I didn't haai your statamant. 

2 Turning to tha naxt sarias of docunants. which is on 
tha stationary of tha Robart Goodnan Agancy. and haadad 
Amarican Consarvativa Trust, Fraadom Fightars TV National 
Spot Progran, and bagins with paga 77196 through 77210. Do 
you racall approximataly whan this group of materials was 
praparad? 

A It would hava baan in Dacambar or — wall, it has hara 
2 1st of January, so it would had to hava baan bafora tha 
21st of January. 

fi Tha 2 1st of January appaars on paga 77200 through 
77202, on a paga which appaars to ba tha taxt of an 
advartisamant or for thraa pagas. that is tha taxt of thraa 
saparata advartisamants . Is it your racollaction that all 
of thasa matarials wara praparad at approximataly that data? 

A I would thinK so. 

e Now. li you would look at paga 77198, thara is a 
summary on that paga which indicatas that tha purposa of tha 
campaign is to raach thosa inciuibant Congrassman which hava 
shown a laoX of rasolva and firm coamitmant on tha issua of 
halping tha contras in Kicaragua, and it goas on to say that 
a list of thasa Congrassman has baan draitad on tha basis of 
both thair ganaral voting racord and thalr position on thraa 
kay votas. 



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Do you know who draftad that list? 

A I again am assuming that Rich Hillar uorkad with Dan 
Kuykandall to do that. 

S Uara you involvad in tha drafting oi that list? 

A Ko . I maan, I would gat tha proposal and then I 
would hava a chanca to work with it after it was put 
together. I mean> that is — I think that is what you are 
asking . 

2 So, you would make tha final decision as to-- 

A I had to spend tha money. 

fi So. therefore, you made tha final decision as to 
where tha advertising buys ware made? 

A As you know, or maybe you don't know, because you do 
not work with him, these companies give you their ideal 
program, hoping that it will be attractive enough, or you 
will find the resources to buy into the entire program. It 
is very rarely tha case that anybody has enough — we have 
never had enough money to be able to do that. 

Ha hava had to choose later or run fewer ads. or 
whatever . 

2 That* scripts that are page 77200 through 77202. as 
wall as tha other pages, indlcata that these ads are to be 
paid for by tha American Contarvatlva Trust. What was the 
reason that It was proposed that tha American Conservative 
Trust pay fox these ads instead of KZPL? 



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A I think this is simply a mistaka on Adam Goodman's 
part. Ha sant us a lot of mail to tha Amarican Consaxvative 
Trust . 

a Hhan you say you think this was a mistaka on his 
part, do you maan that you consider thesa to ba appropriate 
ads for HEPL? 

A Yes. 

e Why was that? 

A Becausa they are not ads that are lobbying, and ue 
are not talking about any legislation. He are talking about 
education . 

2 What in youx mind was tha distinction or tha 
criteria for distinguishing batwaan ads that constituted 
lobbying and advertisements that constituted education? 

A Our IRS designation stated that lobbying is for--they 
have a definition of lobbying to signify a lobbying 
organization. You have to follow those guidelines, and in 
our IRS certification, there is a definition that you have 
to follow. 

fi Hall, focusing on thasa three particular ads where 
you have tha scripts here. Hr . Channall. why do you consider 
these to ba appropriate advertisements for MEPL? 

ns. nORRISON: He just told you. because they were 
educational and not lobbying. 

THE WITNESS: They ata infornatlva and educational. 



"NCUSS/f/ffl 



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HIR2145000 Wi ^i'Sr.nUw'l •»-»* PAGE 55 
and they do not point to a piaca of lagislation or asking 
paople to support a piaca oi legislation, noi asking people 
to do anything except to listen. 
BY HR. FRYHAH: 
2 So, lobbying ads axe ads that refer to particular 
pieces of legislation? 

A Yes, focus of legislative activity. That is what 
our IRS designation said to us. 
KY HR. OLIVER: 
2. That means that is the way you interpreted your IRS 
designation. 

MS. nORRISOK: He said that. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 That is what youz lawyers — 
A Our lawyers. 

2 Did you take this particular program to your lawyers 
to determine whether or not it would be a violation of your 
IRS status? 

A We took the ads. He always worked out the wording 
and that type of thing with the lawyers. 
BY HK. FRYHAM: 
2 This Is tlr. Herge? 
A Yei. 

2 And he. as a matter of course, would review a copy 
of your advertisements. 




'V 



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HIR245000 



8* 




PAGE 56 



% Oh. y«s, sura. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 

S rty quastion uas , did you taka this packaga with the 
covering memo iron the Robert Goodman Agency indicating this 
uas directed at certain Menbers of Congress during a period 
prior to a vote and ask whether or not this would be a 
violation oi your tax status? 

Did you taka that to your lawyer? 

A I don't renambar doing that personally, but it is 
very possible wa mailed it to hia to show, you know, 
everything that wa ware doing, but I didn't hand it to him. 

fi Did you aver racalva a written opinion from him as 
to the--whathar or not that would aiiact your tax status? 

A It was all dona on tha telephone. Hot only ads that 
we wrote--that I wrote, but ads that someone else would 
propose for us would have to be approved by-- 
BY MR. FRynXK: 

2 li you would turn to tha next page in Exhibit 1 , 

<noi 

which is nuabazad AI077. which is a plan of action to lobby 
Congress for Bllitary aid for tha Klcaraguan resistance by 
Bruce Caaaron and dated January 24, 1986, what is this 
document? Is this a proposal by Hr . Cameron? 

A If you will give ma a second. I would like to take a 
look at this. I guess it is a proposal of sorts. 

S Did you ask Hr . Cameron to make this proposal? 



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A I could hava . oc Rich Millai did. He is speaking 

hate about soma of the things that I would not have known as 

much about this as Rich would hava, and Rich was hoping that 

wa would be able to being him in to help us. 



When did you iirst meet Mr. Cameron? 

Some time in early 1986. 

And what did you understand his position was at that 



2 

A 

2 
time? 

A As I have told you, that — about a half-hour ago--I 
understood that he was a lobbyist or specialist, both 
probably, in Latin American affairs with some influence in 
Washington, both among journalists and the media people and 
on Capitol Mill. 

He had a particular knowledge of Latin America, 
expertise on Latin America. 

a Did you understand that he had formerly worked for 
the Americans for Democratic Action? 

A I learned that. yes. 

e Did you consider that he had particular acceptance 
among Democratic or liberal Heabers of Congress? 

A Hell, he said that he met with a group frequently. 

S Did you retain Mr. Cameron as a consultant in 1986? 

A Yes, through IBC some oi the time. 

fi To do what? 

A To help us meet with the Democxatio members of tha 



ONCUSSIFIED 



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HIR245000 |imi~< -■■•';.'•.. "r fi ?■ 1 1 PAGE 58 
House and "^r'aiia "a" relationship of bipartisanship with the 
Democratic nenbers of the House. 

S Now. uas that retention in response to this document 
dated January 24, 1986? 

A May be. I--I frankly don't remember reading this, 
but I am sure he said this to me in various ways personally: 
however, these are — for some reason, these are--I have read it 
because this is my wzitii.q, but it looks like X was going to 
give it back to Rich or something because there are lots of 
questions on it. 

S Did you understand that Hz. Cameron was associated 
with some organization? 

A Yes. He had an organization, a very small 
organization. I can't remember what the name was. 

S Uas that called the Center for Democracy in the 
Americas? 

A Could be. I can't renembez the name, but that could 
be it. 

S Old he have an associate in that organization named 
Eric Singez? 

A I don't know. He had — he had an assistant or 
soaethlng like that. I am not sure — I can't remember the 
naae. but he had somebody working with him to do research, 
and I think just keep the office. I met the person two or 
three times. 



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11414 

mis 

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RPTS CAMTOR 
DCHN HILTOK 
( 1 1 ^45 1 

2 Mr. Chann«ll, ii you would look again at Exhibit 2, 
and tha sacond paga of that axhibit, which is haaded 
''Analysis 2-B,'' undar tha ptojact axpandituras , there is 
an indication that NEPL paid «16>000 to Btuca Camaton in 
1986. 

A Yas. 

e Do you raeall such a paynant? 

A Wall, I'n not suxa that was tha total, but ua paid 
him . 

e KEPL paid him? 

A Yas. 

2 And ii you will look on tha naxt paga, thara is an 
indication that Santinal paid •40,000 to tha Cantar for 
Damocracy. Do you saa that? 

A Yas. 

S Do you raeall a paynant by Santinal to such an 
organization? 

A Hall. I know wa paid that. yas. 

a KoM, what was tha raason for thosa paymants? 

A Hall, Bruca did soaa, wa thought, soma activities 
which would ba lobbying, and soaa actlvltias which ware lika 



mmm 



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HIR245000 



mimm 



PAGE 



60 



h« nat with n* and whan ua had our maatings on tha aditorial 
program, ha would ba thara to halp discuss aditoiial program 
and bring his knovrladga o£ Latin Amarica, which is rather 
uniqua but vary axtansiva. to our understanding oi tha 
editorial program, and our creation oi our speakers program. 
and he was not there for lobbying purposes. He was there to 
strengthen tha aditorial program, to brief me. to introduce 
me to people from Latin America, who ware involved in this 
issue that wa did not know, would have nothing to do with 
the lobbying program, so wa paid him partially from NEPL for 
an aditorial aspect oi his work, and than wa paid him for 
direct lobbying activities up hare, from Sentinel. 

S How was it datarainad cha amount that would ba paid 
by KEPL and tha amount that would ba paid by Sentinel? 

A I think it was based upon tha time and what he had 
worked with, with us. 

S Was that a judgaant that ha made in his billings 
and you just paid according to which organization he billed, 
or was that a judgaant that soaaona In your organization 
aada? 

A Both. 

fi And you recall thara ware discussions? 

A Thara ware . 

S Back and forth? 

A Yas, and also with Rich Hlllat on this account. 



ONCLASSIHED 



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NCUSSIFIEB 



PAGE 61 



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a Did Ht . Cameron work for Hr . Ililler and IBC apart 
from his work for your organizations? 

A Did h« avar do that or-- 

2 Ara you auara that ha did that? 

A I am not. 

e You indicated aarliar that ha worked for Mr. 
Millar's organization, and ua have bean discussing some 
direct payments from your organizations to Hr . Cameron, and 
my question is, are you aware of other work that he was 
doing for Hr . Hillet? 

A Mot directly for us, to ay knoMledge, not directly 
for us . 

Q Are you aware of work ha was doing for Hr . Millar 
on other matters? 

A Ko, but they had dealt with each other before I was 
introduced to him. They had dealt with each other before I 
met him. I met him through Rich. Rich had recommended that 
we bring him on board to help us. because of his expertise, 
e Hr. Channell, turning to the next page in Exhibit 



A li I might extend that a hair, down here at the 



proposal. Z have breakdown oi billing, 
ft That Is in your handwrltlns? 
A That's right, 
e On document 81707? 



DNCUSSra 



252 



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HIR24S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 62 



A That's tight. That would hav« been a clear 
indication that ue were going to be working with him on at 
least two aspects oi our work. 

fi Turning to the next page in Exhibit 1, 29659, which 
is an example oi a letter iron Mr. Korth dated January 24, 
1986. to one oi your contributors, this one specifically is 
to Or. Adamkiewicz, and there are a number oi similar 
letters in the iiles produced by your counsel to other oi 
your supporters under the same date, and indeed it appears 
that this letter was sent to all oi your supporters who 
participated in the January 30. 1986, White House btieiing. 
were you aware that these letters were being sent? 

A Yesterday you asked me to look at a ncte which I 
had sort of like my own little ''to do'* list, and one of 
them is thank-you letters irom Ollie, and I said to you 
yesterday that I probably would have had that in December. 
It's my bellei that this is the answer to my request oi 
December, because you will note ''all my best ior the new 
year, and God bless you.'' He are already into the second 
month almost oi the year, so this was probably a six- or 
seven-weeK hiatus irom my request ior an end-oi-the-year 
letter, and oi course this was a week beiore the event, so 
he couldn't have written the people who came to the January 
meeting because they came to the January meeting, as I 
understand this is a week prior to the meeting. 



yNClASSIFIEI^ 



253 



^?i 



NAME-- HIR2'4S000 




PAGE 



63 



151U e Is it your belief that this was a letter that was 

1515 written to the persons who had contributed to your 

1516 organization in 1985? 

15 17 A I think that is what it was. yes. 

1518 S Who prepared this letter? 

1519 A I don't know. 

1520 Q Do you know if Mr. Hiller was involved in it? 

1521 A I do not know at all. 

1522 fi In the next to last paragraph there is a sentence 

1523 which reads: ''in the weeks ahead, we will comaence a 
15214 renewed effort to itake our assistance to the democratic 

1525 resistance forces even acre effective. Once again your 

1526 support will be essential.'* 

1527 What do you understand that refers to? 

1528 A Well, he was aware that we were going to nount a 

1529 major program to support the President when the new 

1530 legislation was proposed. I guess that is what he is 

1531 referring to, although the legislation I think, maybe at 

1532 about this time it was formally proposed. 

1533 e The sentence, "Once again your support will be 
153U essential," do you understand that to be a request by 

1535 Colonel Morth to your contributors to make further 

1536 contzibutlona to your programs? 

1537 A I never read it that way. 

1538 e How would you read that? 



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HIR2MS000 



wMma 



PAGE 6(4 



A That h* was encouraging thasa p«opla to support the 
President. 

2 And was he also encouraging them to make 
contributions to your organizations? 

A As I said, I just never read it that way. 

2 How else would they support the President? 

A Well, theycould support the President by 
supporting, you Know, doing anything they wanted to, 
supporting lots oi programs. 

2 In the sentence in that paragraph which is above, 
it refers to the iaet that the person can be proud that you 
have made a ''crucial contribution,'* in helping our 
President. Do you understand that to reier to a 
contribution to one oi your organizations? 

A He could have meant that. You know, you are asking 
me what he was thinking when he wrote this letter. 

fi No. I'm asking you-- 

A I'm not him. 

2 What you understand the letter to mean when you 
read it? 

A H«ll> frankly I never pay any attention to it. I 
juat thought It was a mass thank-you letter and encouraging 
.jgeople to stay with the eiiort and to support the President 
and stay active. 

2 But it was a letter that you asked be sent? 



yNCUSHI 



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Yas. 



UNCUSSW 



PAGE 65 



C And what was your taason for asking it to b« sant? 
A Hall, my original raquast was that ha sand a thank- 
you lattax to avarybody at tha and of tha yaar. 

e A thank-you lattar ior contributions to your 
organizations? 

A For all of tha halp. Wall, not nacassarily to 
mina, but for all of tha halp that thasa paopla had done, 
whatavar it was, in 1985. Just that, a thank-you latter and 
happy Haw Yaar. 

e Turning to tha naxt group of pages beginning 349214 
through 34926, and then 30176 and 31739. these pages appear 
to relate to a White House briefing on January 30. 1986. 
although 31739 is dated January 31, 1986. First let ma ask 
about the list of briefing attendees on 349214 through 34926. 

Is that a list consistent with your recollection of the 
persons who were invited to the January 30 briefing? 
A Yes. 

e And is 30176 consistent with your recollection of 
the progxaB fox the January 30, 1986. briefing? 
A Ye*. 

fi So you know why there is a separate page for a 
briefing on January 31, 1986? 
A Yes. 
e What Is it? 



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HIR2M5000 IIIHI.I IAVll^iriI.U PAGE 66 

This was a big public bri«fing in loom USO of thtt 
EOB. You could gat 300 paopla in thara. It was part o£ 
thair outraach program on this issua. It just uas 
interasting that ua had a maating. I think, on a Thursday 
and thay had a maating on a Friday or somathing lika that. 

S So that is unralatad? 

A Ua uaza invitad to that. 

S Whan you say ''wa,'* who do you maan? 

A I uas invitad to this. 

Q Uara all of youz contributors invitad to this? 

A Ko, just ma. 

fi Did you attand this saeond briaiing? 

A No. 

e And so iar as you Know, youz contributors did not 
attand tha Januazy 31, 1986, bziaiing? 

A Right, 150 is a thaataz-styla zoom, whaza tha 
Pzasidant makas major public statamants. It's all kayad ior 
madia and talavision lights. It's Intazasting that Ollia 
would ba giving tha updata. 

S Turning to tha nAxt dootimant. Hz. Channall. which 
is a lattaz to Hz. Conzad izom Stavan CooK oi tha Edalman 
public zalatlons fizm datad rabzuazy 5, 1986, and has youz 
control No. 7622S and 76226, did NIPL antaz into a 
consulting azzangamant with tha Edalman iizm? 

A Yas, wa did. 



UNCUSSIREO 



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HIR2U5000 



UNCUSSIFe 



PAGE 67 



2 And is this Ittttar th« basis for tha consulting 
agraanant? 

A It night hava baan. I don't camambax this lattac. 

2 Aca tha tains consistant with your lacollection of 
tha consulting aztanganant with tha fizn? 

A Ganazaily. I don't avan zananbar tha anount of 
monay. It nay hava changad. 

e What was tha Edalnan iizn to do for NEPL? 

A IBC/ fzankly, thay considarad thansalvas too snail 
to zun a national publicity affozt, to gat our naws out. to 
gat our--wa had tapas for our doeunantarias that ua had nada 
on Hicazagua. Ha wantad to baan than up by satallita. and 
shoot than all ovar tha countzy> to talavision stations 
whaza thay could zaeord than and than usa than. Ua uantad 
to sand out a lot of spaaKazs. aight oz tan taans of 
spaakazs azound tha countzy, to talk about what lifa was 
lika in Klcazagua. and this was an afiozt to ba a national 
pzograa, but ua just didn't hava — nobody had tha staff to do 
that, and whan I chackad with IBC, thay said thay just 
didn't hava any of tha capability at all. Thay didn't hava 
any oi tha profassional paopla. and thazaiora thay would 
suggast that wa would go to sonabody alsa that was a 
national ilzs, diffazant buslnassas all ovar tha countzy 
that would halp handla this, paopla that could wozk with 
pzass zalaasas aad try to gat us on talavision. whan I had a 



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1642 



prftss conierance> for instanca, and so u* chos* Edalman to 
do that, sinply bacausa u» uaia hoping to hava a nuch laigar 
fzamauork to deal with than aithar ay organization or IBC 
could handla. 



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DCHH SPRADL 



iCLASSIRED 



PAGE 69 



S So than rasponsibilitlAS uaia limitad to these 
paiticulaz aceas of press relations and arrangements, 
speaking tours? 

A Publicity, that's right. 

2 As a national TV hookup. 

A Yes . 

fi Oi soma sort. 

A Yes. 

2 You mantionad aazliar whan ua ware talking about 
tha lobbying proposal by Hz. Dolan that similar proposals 
had bean sought from other firms, and you mentioned tha 
Eddleman firm. 

A Right. 

2 In connection with that. Haza they involved m the 
lobbying effort? 

A Ko, wa didn't choosa tham foz that. 

fi Did thay make a proposal with zaspact to that? 

A Ya> . Pazt of thalr pzoposal was that. See, I 
would lika to go back just a sacond. This latter is based 
upon a long-tazm series of intazviaws and negotiations that 
Dan Conzad had with all of thasa different businesses, which 
lasted easily 3 months. X mean othaz than doing a to-do 
list, and wozklng with Rich and Fzank fzaquantly, ha spent 
all of his time fzoa about 8 In tha mozning until 7 at night 



UNCLASSIFIED 



260 



HAME : 
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HIR2U5000 



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Sitting with th«s« organizations discussing what their 
iacilitias w«r«> what thair ability was, what thair national 
offices ware like to handle a major educational and 
inf ornational and press progran. 

He did it for three months. 

S But am I correct that they were originally asked to 
make a broader proposal? 

A More comprehensive. 

e But they were ultimately selected to do a specific 
portion . 

A That's right. 

e Of the Hhole progzaa. 

A That's correct. 

2 And not the entire program. 

A That's right. We found that for our lobbying 
efforts there weren't many people around who were 
knowledgeable about the issue enough to really have any 
impact on Capitol Hill. 

e With respect to youz lobbying efforts, who did you 
retain? 

A Hell, we retained just individuals. Ue didn't find 
any firm that was capable. 

fi Z believe we have also discussed, we have already 
discussed Hz. Cameron. 

A Yet. 



BNtmssro 



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NAME' 
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17 11* 
1715 
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1717 



HIR24S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 71 



2 And you have indicated he was one oi the 
individuals? 

A Yas. and Congressraan Kuykendall. 

2 Right. 

Kou> were there other individuals that you 
retained? 

A Mo. those were the two. 

2 And nz . Cameron you indicated uas identified with 
what might be characterized as a liberal faction in the 
Congress, is that correct? 

A Well, you know this issue-- 

2 Let me withdraw that question and ask you-- 

A I can talk about application. 

2 Let me withdraw that question and ask it another 
way. Did you retain Hr . Cameron for the purpose of lobbying 
one particular segment of Congress, and Hr . Kuykendall for 
the purpose of lobbying another segment? 

A That's right. He tried to reach out. Ue needed to 
get support from a variety of groups In the Congress, and ue 
retained hla to try to be liaison between us and them. Ue 
retained Kuykendall to do the same thing with his groups. 

S And how would you describe the groups that Mr. 
Cameron was to create a liaison with? 

A nz. Cameron seemed to hold influence and the 
expertise with a group of Democrats who do believe that some 



uNtiAssra 



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HIR2145000 



UNCLASSinEO 



PAGE 72 



action in ragaxd to Amarican support ior tha iiaadom 
fightais is nacassary. tit. Kuykandall daalt with tha group 
of Republicans mostly who again fait that soma sort of aid 
to tha iraadom fightars was nacassaiy. Naithax of thesa 
groups was solid in thaiz baliai as to axactly what could be 
dona. Thay wara all undacidad to my knouladga on tha type 
of legislation that thay would ba willing to accept from the 
Administration. 

2 Turning to tha next document in Exhibit 1 , which is 
a letter to you dated February 26. 1986 from Edie Frasiar. 
which has your numbers 2-MT5~ through 3)4859, and this appears 
to be a retainer agreement which you signed retaining her 
firm. Miner and Frasier. Public Affairs. Inc.. is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

S Hhat was this firm to do in support of the 
Kicaraguan legislation? 

A Their efforts were to get people to write their 
Congressman. She was going to work through a lot of the 
groups she kneM. the heads of the groups, to encourage the 
heads of these organizations, and there were many, to write 
their Congressman and talk about Kicaragua. 

fi In the letter on the first paga. it states that 
they are ''to neither work with organizations with a goal to 
influence targeted congressional votes'' and that '' we 



IClOTEO 



263 



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HIR24S000 



liNCUSSiflED 



PAGE 73 



undarstand you have revised the target list and ue will 
receive it within 48 hours.'* The letter continues that 
''The initial list of priorities you gave us is 32 Democrats 
and 33 Republicans.*' 

Do you recall giving Hrs . Frasier such a list, such 
an initial list? 

A One was prepared for her, for everybody I think. 

2 And who prepared that list? 

A That would have been — I got the list fron Rich 
Miller, and again I assume that Congressiian Kuykendall and 
Rich put this together. At this point Rich night have been 
talking with other people besides Dan Kuykendall. 

Q Do you know if he was talking with other people? 

A Yes, he was talking with other people. I don't 
know, Penn Kinble is another one of Rich's friends whom he 
later gave a grant to. and he has some influence with a lot 
of Democrats, and Rich I know began to talk with him a lot. 
I can*t think of the names, but there were other people that 
I do know that Rich worked with now on analyzing the list of 
people. It was not just Dan Kuykendall. Rich mentioned to 
ma several times that there was one Congressman that I 
thought--! would say are we going to be able to find out what 
this man believes, and then Rich would have said something 
like ''Hell, Kuykendall says this, but Biuce Cameron has 
said this'', so we got into a lot of that, and then I 



uNcussm 



264 



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1775 
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17814 
178S 
1786 
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1792 



ilrlfjUo 




HIR2US0OO "" ' PAGE 7l» 

startad neating with Biuce Camaron. Than I stactad naatin? 
with Pann Kinbla bacausa I found out thata was a variety of 
viaupoints on what thasa Congtassnan raally baliavad, not 
just ona> and of coursa it bacama to soma dagraa confusing, 
but it also illuninatad tha fact that peopla uara changing 
thair minds a giaat daal and thata uaia diffatent sources of 
information, but ha bagan to daal with mora than Dan 
Kuykandall . 

fi Tha sources you have identified so far are Mr. 
Kuykendall> Penn Kimble. Bruce Cameron. 

A Yes. 

fi And Rich Hiller. 

A Yes. 

fi Do you recall any other sources of information that 
were used for targeting Congressmen? 

A Well, other than written documents and things. I 
don't right now, but Z may later. 

fi Did you ever consult with Colonel Korth? 

A No. 

fi Anyone else in the White House? 

A No. we never got to meet Kia. I wanted to meet Mr. 
Bell, who is the lobbying specialist for the White House, 
and it wea one of my desires to do that. We never did get 
to do that. 

fi Did you consult with Pat Buchanan? 



BNCUSSIflEO 



265 



HAHE : 
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1817 



HIR2US000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 75 



A Ho. Ue met with Pat Buchanan onca> but it was not 
about targeting Congressmen or anything like that. 

Q Did you aver consult with John Roberts? 

A No. 

2 Do you recall revising this target list within US 
hours for Ms. Frasier as she indicates in the letter here? 

A No, but the list was revised alaost every day, uhen 
new information came in, and uhen old information uas 
discredited, it becam«--in fact in my briefcase at one time I 
had 15 different revisions, because people were changing. 
People uere moving, and it was a very difficult thing to 
try. 

2 Cdie Frasier is the Individual you had worked with 
in 1985 on the refugee fund dinner, is that correct? 

A Right. 

fi Back in that period of time, do you recall a 
discussion with Hs . Frasier where you indicated that you had 
certain contributors who would contribute 4300,000 or more 
to the cause if they could have a private meeting with 
President Reagan? 

A Ko. 

m. FRYMAK< I ask the reporter to mark as Channell 
Deposition Exhibit 3 for Identliloatlon a letter from Edie 
Frasier to Oliver Korth dated Hazch >4, 1985. 

[Channell Deposition Exhibit Mo. 3 was marked for 



iiimsim 



266 



NAME : 
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182 1 
1822 
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1825 
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1835 
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1838 
1839 
18140 

ism 

1842 



HIR214S000 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



PAGE 76 



identification. 1 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 Hr . Channftll, if you uould look at Exhibit 3 for 
identification and tall raa li tha note on that lattar, which 
has teen pcoduced by Ms. Fiasiat, refiashes youi 
recollection about any conversation you had with her 
concerning a substantial donation by one of your 
contributors, ona or mora of your contributors, if they 
could have a private meeting with President Reagan. 

A I don't ever remember that happening. There was an 
article in the newspaper where this was attributed to me. 
and there was a subsequent article in tha newspaper where 
she said that she had dona this harsali. At this time, 
being the Uth of March. I had no idea who gave what. This 
was still three weeks before tha dinner, and we ware still 
m tha planning stages for tha dinner. I don't think we had 
raised a penny for this yet. I am not even sura we had 
started, and I had no idea on tha face of it either that we 
would be able to raise a dollar for this effort, and I can't 
believe I would have said wall, wa have two people who will 
give «300,000 If thay can meat tha President. 

2 Apart from the specific amount of 4300.000. do you 
raoall any discussion with har that you had contributors who 
would make a vary substantial contribution if thay could 
have a privata meeting with tha Prasidant? 



pcussra 



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NAUE 
18U3 

isuu 

18145 
18146 
ISU? 
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18514 
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HIR214SOOO 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 77 



A Ho. I do recall her saying to me that the 
President was going to corae for a reception or we would have 
a reception, and that the members of the steering committee 
or the dinner committee, whatever, would get to go. That is 
all I know. She has since said in public that this did not 
involve me. I was delighted to hear. 

2 Hr . Channell, directing your attention to the next 
document in Exhibit 1, which has your columns 29699 and 
29700, which is a memorandum from Penn Kimble to Hr . Conrad 
dated Harch i* , 1986, do you recall this memorandum? 

A Yes. 

2 Item 1 relates to a full page advertisement in the 
Washington Post. 

A Yes. 

2 Do you recall discussions with Mr. Kimble about 
that advertisement? 

A Yes. 

2 Hhat did that reveal? 

A He was drafting a full page advertisement that he 
was hoping to xeceive some financial support for, to put m 
newspapers around the country. Hell, actually it says here 
supporting American military assistance as well as economic 
assistance to the freedom fighters. I don't really remember 
the ad, and he wanted to know if we could help him 
financially do that. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



268 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAHE: HXR2U5000 UllULnLlLlll ILII PAGE 78 



1868 
1869 
1870 
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1873 
187l« 
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1877 
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1879 
1880 
1881 
1882 
1883 
188U 
1885 
1886 
1887 
1888 
1889 
1890 
1891 
1892 



Q And did you agree to do that? 

A Yes, ue did. 

Q Mas it your understanding that Mr. Kimble uas also 
involved with Hr . Cameron in an organization? 

A I think so. I have never really figured out 
exactly which was which, but they worked very closely 
together . 

S Were they both Involved to your knowledge in 
something called the Center for Democracy in the Americas? 

A That could have been. They worked very closely 
together, and they each had an organization, and X do recall 
that. 

fi Did Hr . Kimble also have an organization called 
Prodemca? 

A Hell, yes. 

That is indicated in the Democratic Center in 
Central America. 

fi Other than funds for the cost of this advertisement 
thftt is desorlbad In this memorandum, did HZPL pay any 
additional monies to Hr. Kimble's organization Prodemca, 
that you aza aware of? 

A I don't think so. He just gave them money, a grant 
for the ads. Z think ha ran 3 or *i, something like that. 

2 Did any of youz othaz organizations pay any money 
to Prodemca? 



uNcussra 



269 



Hint 

1893 
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1896 
1897 
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1901 
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1912 
1913 
19114 
1915 
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1917 



HIR214S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 79 



A I don't ranamb«i that thay did. 

a Did any of your organizations pay any funds to Hr . 
Kmbia individually or as an individual? 

A I don'^ ramambar that. I wouldn't think so. 

fi Turning to tha naxt paga. which is 81363, which 
appaars to ba a list of attandaas at a prasidantial briefing 
on narch 10, 1986, what do you undarstand that list refers 
to, or to phrasa tha quaftion anothar way, did you 
undarstand that a prasidantial briafing had baan scheduled 
for March of 1986? 

A No. 

fi Was this list praparad in your office? 

A I think so. This is just anothax briafing. 

2 Anothar briafing on Central America? 

A Yes. 

2 That was conducted by Colonel Korth? 

A Yes. 

2 And you do not know why It's headed ''Presidential 
briefing' ' ? 

A It's possible we had a teaporary typist, but this 
was just another briafing. 

2 Is that list consistent with your recollection of 
tha parsons who attended tha Hazch briafing at the White 
House? 

A It's too aany. Ua had aany fewer than that show 



yNClASSIFIED 



270 



NAnc: 

1918 
1919 
1920 
192 1 
1922 
1923 
192i« 
192S 
1926 
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1930 
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1933 
1934 
1935 
1936 
1937 
1938 
1939 
19U0 
19U1 
1942 



HIR2t45000 



up. 



wmm 



PAGE 80 



fi Is it consistant with youz taeollAction of tha 
parsons who wara invitad? 

A Yas . All of thasa paopla had baan thaza befoca I 
think excapt 1 oz 2 . 

Q Do you zacall who showad up at that briefing? 

A I don't zananbar who soma of thasa paopla ware. 

2 Turning to tha next group of documents beginning 
with a memozandum to Hz. Conzad dated March 19, 1986 from 
Eric Singer of the Canter foz Democzacy in the Americas, 
concerning projections on tomorrows vote in the House, which 
is 78810 through 78812; and another memorandum for Mr. 
Conrad from Bruce Cameron under the same data, which is 
76222 and 76223, do you zacall having seen these documents 
before ? 

A Yes. 

e Is tha first memozandum from Itr . Singer an example 
of tha services that ware pazfozmed by Hz. Camazon's 
ozganization on behalf of KZPL and/oz Sentinel? 

A This would have bean, though It's addzassed to 
Sentinel, be I guess Bzuce Camazon's last summazy of what he 
thought was going to happen in tha House vote. 

2 Tha second document, tha memozandum fzom Hz. 
Camazon, is Identified as an activities zepozt. Did you ask 
Hz. Camezon to submit activities zeports? 



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NAME: 

1943 

iguu 

19US 
19'46 
1947 
1948 
19149 
1950 
1951 
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195U 
1955 
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1958 
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1961 
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1963 
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1965 
1966 
1967 



HIR2145000 



mmm 



PAGE 81 
Ha was asked to do that. I hava saan soma of 



thasa. I don't know whathax I did or Dan did. 

S This is just an axampla of savaial that ha 
subraittad? 

A Yas. oh yas . Iha probian with soma oi thasa was I 
thought it was izzalavant to what wa wara doing. 

2 Now tha lattazhaad on that taport indicates that 
Mz . Kimbla is chaizman of tha Cantar foz Damoczacy in tha 
Amazicas, and Hz. Camazon is president. Does that zafzesh 
your recollection? 

A Yes. I knew they were together in some way. 
Pzodenca doesn't stand for anything that when you spell it 
out it is Prodemca. They have made up their own title which 
is izzelevant to the title of their organization. I have 
never been able to remembez what it was. 

2 Turning to the next document, which is latter dated 
7587U and it's dated Harch 21. and it appears to be a form 
letter signed by you and the American Conservative Trust, do 
you recall that letter? 

A I do not recall this going out. Z don't ever 
recall us using HCI mail, for instance. This might have 
been something that Eij * ft e «aA did as part of his program foz 



us . 



fi Do you recall this letter being prepared? 
A I don't recall that. 



KiKssro 



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NAME : 
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1969 
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197 1 
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198S 
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1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 
1991 
1992 



UNCLASSIFIED 



i 



HIR214S000 wi»w— •^''-- PAGE 32 

fi Hav« you seen this letter before? 

A Yes. X have seen a copy of this, and I actually 
thought this was just a draft of something that was 
proposed. I called several people after the vote and told 
there uho we had hoped to count on and ue couldn't. I was 
really unaware that this ever went out. Angela Davis, of 
course, is ny secretary, so it was as you say a form. 

2 Do you know who proposed that a letter such as this 
be sent? 

A Either Dan Conrad would have or grW lea an would 
have. Again I don't even know what HCI mail is. 

fi Why would the Eddleman firm have proposed a letter 
such as this, if their responsibilities were limited as you 
indicated before? 

A Well, if we would have said to - Eddl -»»aa we want to 
get out to the whole world the people who voted against the 
President on this issue, how would you do that quickly, I am 
sure they could respond and say well, there is an MCI nail. 
I don't even know what it is, whether it is overnight or 
what, and you could use that. 

fi 
it. you mean they might have proposed the mechanical 
technique? 

A YttS. 

S Of sanding the letter. 



So when you say the Wdl em mn . firm may have proposed 



uNcuissife 



^ 



273 



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2000 
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2006 
2007 
2008 



HIR2U5000 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 83 



& Right. I maan w* hava our own stationary. Ua could 
hava nailad this on oui own stationary. 

2 But you axa not suggasting that tha Ed e llaa an firm 
proposad tha substanca oi this lattar? 

A No. I an talking about tha tachniqua . 

Q Do you hava any racollaction of tha origin of tha 
substanca of this lattar? 

A Uall> I don't know who put tha list togathar. 

S Turning to tha naxt group of docunants, which is 
your nunbars 3U89 1 through 3>(896, which is a list of 
briafing attandaas as of March 27, 1986. and is thraa copias 
of tha saaa list, is this list consistant with your 
racollaction of tha attandaas at tha March 1986 briafing 
with Colonal North? 

A I would supposa so. That must hava baan whan Bill 
O'Boyla was hara. I thought it was April. 



llNClA!""'lf1 



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NAME : 
2009 
20 10 
20 1 1 
20 12 
2013 
201U 
2015 
2016 
2017 
20 18 
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202>4 
2025 
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2033 



HIR214S000 



mimm 



PAGE 814 



RPTS MAZUR 
DCHH DONOCK 
12 : 30 p.m. 

fi Turning to tha naxt docunant, which is a lattar to 
you fion Adan Goodnan, datad Hatch 31, 1986. and it is paga 
number 77744 through 77747, did you raquast Hr . Goodman to 
sand you a lattar such as this? 

A I askad him to sand ma a summary oi what they had 
dona. Ua askad avarybody who uorkad with us to sand a 
raport on what thay had dona. Cama just as a lattar. 

Q Now, on paga 2 and 3 of this lattax. thata is a 
statamant that KEPI producad savan commarcials for tha 
national ad campaign, and thosa ara idantifiad, and than ha 
continuas in tha naxt paragraph that concarning the actual 
placement of spots, KEPL aired these commercials 
cumulatively over 1100 times in Washington and the other 
television targeted markets. 

Has It your understanding that these commercials 
were the pxi.nolp«X conaexcials that were used in the public 
education caapalgn in 1986? 

A Oh, yes. They were all educational ads. 

Q And tha air time was paid for by NEPL? 

A Yas. 

fi Let's go off tha raoozd. 

[Discussion off tha reoord.l 



UNCIASSIHED 



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NAME: HIRZUSOOO ||^|A| IOPILILiI P^^t^E 85 



203U 
2035 
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2038 
2039 
20140 
20>41 



UHCIASSIFIED. 



"Ry|vHwri%|UI*'IHr#'just bittak for lunch at 
thj.s point, and I will start on this subject aitar ua break 
for lunch? Why don't ue break and ue will try to start at 
approxinataly 1:30? 

THE UITKESS: Okay. Great. 

(Whereupon, at 11:U0 a.m., the taking of the 
deposition was recessed, to recomnence at 1=30 p.m., the 
same day. ] 



KUSW 



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HIR2'45000 



UNCUSSiriED 



PAGE 86 



RPTS HAZUR 
DCMN OONOCK 
1 : 55 p.n. 
AFTERNOON SESSION 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 Mr. Channall, whan u* broka for lunch, wa wera 
discussing tha lattar to you fioit Adan Goodman datad rtarch 
31. 1986. and tha savan commarcials that ata spaciiically 
cefaizad to in that lattar at pagas 2 and 3. 

During tha braak. wa talkad about your ianiliarity 
with tha accounting racords that show billings by tha 
Goodman agancy for thosa commarcials, and it is my 
undarstanding that you do not hava a datallad knowledga of 
tha billing racords or of tha accounting racords of the 
char^as for tha madia tima for thosa commarcials; is that 
corract? 

A That is right. Espacially bacausa thay wara changad 
somatimas. 

S Turning to tha naxt lattar in Exhibit 1 . which is a 
lattar from you to Hr . Millar datad April 15. 1986. and it 
has pagas 792*tO-<4l. In that lattar. you rafarrad to various 
subcontraotozs to IBC that assistad in tha lobbying campaign 
for tha Nicaragua aid vota or for tha vota for aid to tha 
Nicaraguan zaslstanca. 



mamm 



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HIR2'4S000 -..».««..«.*..... PAGE 87 

The list on th« second^lfa includas Mr. Artiano and 
He. Fischar. which wa have discussad. Ua hava also 
discussad Mrs. Fraziar and tha Goodaans and Mr. Kuykandall. 
Othar^ includad in that list ara Stava Cook. An I correct 
that Mr. Cook was tha axacutiva at tha Edalman agancy who is 
rasponsibla for thait work; is that corract? 

A Yas. 

fi Tha list also includas Jack Lichanstain, L-i-c-h-e-n- 
s-t-a-i-n. What was Mr. Lichanstain' s rola as a 
subcontractor? 

A Ha had tha sana rola as Edia Fraziar. axcapt ha had 
diiiarant groups to daal with. 

fi And that rola involvad ganaration oi-- 

A Support to Congrassman — yas. grass-roots support to 
Congrassaan. 

2 Tha list also includas tha UNO Oiiica. How was tha 
UNO Oiiica a subcontractor oi IBC? 

A I don't think it was. Ha — wa had daalt with thair 
staii at various tinas. and had sat with thaa at various 
tinas. and undar Rich Millar's guidanca — or I guass you say 
whan ha thought it was appropriata to aaat with hin. and I 
just addad that. 

fi So that was tha raason ior Including thaa in that 
lattar . 

A That is right. I put avarybody in thara frankly 



iiNcussm 



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HAME : 

2092 
2093 
20914 
2095 
2096 
2097 
2098 
2099 
2100 
2101 
2102 
2103 
210t( 
2105 
2106 
2107 
2108 
2109 
21 10 
2111 
2112 
2113 
21 1<4 
21 15 
2116 



HIR2145000 



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PAGE 88 



that he brought in for ona laason oc anothai, but ha had not 
had any iinancial ralationship with 'any of thosa paople. 

Q Nou, turning to tha naxt group of pagas which 
concern tha briafing on April 16, 1986< and thosa ara pagas 
314897, 314898, 314889 and 314890, is this a list of attandaas 
that is consistent with your racollaction of tha parsons who 
attended the April 1986 briefing? 

A Yes, it is. I would like say for tha record, you 
mentioned to ma a document entitled ''Presidential 
Briefing,'' and over lunch, I realized that there was a 
Presidential briefing in tha East Room of tha Uhite House 
which our whole staff and other people were invited, and 
that might have been what that was for. 

fi What did that Presidential briefing concern? 

A It discussed Nicaragua. Hany people were--hundreds 
of people were invited to that, and we took everybody we 
could find. That was not one of our meetings. Ue were 
invited to them. 

HR. ncGOUSH: nay I ask. did the President attend 
that briefing? 

THE HITHESS: I think so. 
BY HR. FRYnAN: 

a That is the docunent dated Haroh 10 in Exhibit 1, 
which is 81363. 

A Yes, it was not one of ouz bzleiings. 



^nmmm 



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HXnZ HIR2US000 



mmim 



PAGE 89 



21 17 
21 18 
2 119 
2 120 
2 12 1 
2122 
2123 
212<4 
2125 
2126 
2127 
2128 
2129 
2130 
2 131 
2132 
2133 
213>4 
2135 
2136 
2 137 
2138 
2139 
21M0 
21i«1 



e That list for a briafing includas lit. and Hrs . 
Pantacost. Do you b«li«v« you invitad Hr . and Hrs. 
Pantacost to coma to Washington to attand that ganatal 
br laf ing? 

A Thay might hava alraady baan thara, but xt was 
not — our organizations did not ganarata that avent. 

2 All right. 

Raturning to tha documants that follow tha raatarials 
ralating to tha April 16 briafing. thara is soma financial 
statamants of MEPL that appaar at pagas 29125 through 29130. 
On savaral pagas of thasa financial statamants, thara is a 
rafaranca in tha projact column to toys. For eKampla, in 
tha third paga-- 

A Hhat is your numbai again, plaasa? 

e 29127. 

A Okay. 

Q Thara is an antry that statas: April 1, O'Boyla is 
tha contributor. Tha sollcltoz is Jan* and tha proDact is 
toys. Tha account is Patton, and tha amount is «130.000. 
Is that an axaapla of tha toys account that ua discussad 
yastazdmy? 

A Pzacisaly. 

fi Turning to tha naxt dociuiant, which is a lattar to 
nz. Conzad itom Dan Kuykandall datad Hay 5. 1986, documant 
numbar 355U1. which statas that this lattar should ba 



iinmm 



280 



NAME: 
21>42 
2m3 
2 mu 
2 1U5 
2 1<46 
2 147 
21(48 
21149 
2150 
2151 
2152 
2153 
215>4 
2155 
2156 
2157 
2158 
2159 
2160 
2161 
2162 
2163 
^16^ 
2165 
2166 



HIR2145000 



uNcussra 



PAGE 90 



considaiad an invoicA ior consulting ras«aich and rasoutce 
inioznation iron tha Gulf and Catibbaan Foundation, and then 
It continuas that this sum covars ''our advisory and 
consulting contribution to tha contra aid aiiort ior tha 
renaindar of 1986.'' 

What sarvicas wara providad by tha Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation? 

A Dan Kuykandall. as you know, actad as a resource for 
us as wall as lobbyist. Ha has baan working in tha 
Nicaraguan issue for several years, long before we became 
involved. He introduced us to maybe 15 people from the Gulf 
and Caribbean Foundation who were very interested in 
Nicaragua, who had had expaxianca in Nicaragua, who had 
interests in Latin America, many of whom live in Texas. 

Ha hosted luncheons for that. He got us from the 
Gulf and Caribbean Foundation literature that they have 
printed on that area, and — that was vary separate from his 
personal lobbying activities, and so, there was a bill--ha 
calls it a contribution, which Z think is mora accurate. 

This covered, Z think, three months, and than ha 
introduced me to a European, and we had several meetings 
with this European — Frenchman who worked with the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation last summer as part of his 
activities — as part of his activities representing the Gulf 
and Caribbean Foundation, not as a lobbyist. 



BNcusxm 



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NAME: 
2167 
2168 
2 169 
2 170 
2171 
2172 
2173 
2 1714 
2175 
2176 
2177 
2178 
2179 
2180 
2181 
2182 
2183 
218(4 
2185 
2186 
2187 
2 188 
2189 
2190 
2191 



HIR2'45000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 91 



fi Uall, is It correct that KEPL was paying th« Guli 
and Caribbaan Foundation ior advisory and consulting 
seivicAs to th« contra aid effort? 

A I think that is just a general statement. 

2 Uell, IS It a correct general statement? 

A He was a lobbyist and we paid him as a lobbyist, and 
when he introduced us to these people, which was more m the 
way of information--! mean, they were not lobbying. He was 
not asking them to lobby. They did not need to be lobbied, 
because they had nothing to do with contra aid effort at 
all. They were just very well connected in Latin America 
and very knowledgeable about the situation. 

So, I--I think that on his part, it is just a general 
stateaent. These people, most of whom have their references 
in Texas, have nothing to do with any of our lobbying 
efforts on the Kicaraguan aid bill, and you would not find 
their names anywhere. 

2 Turning to the next documents, Hz. Channell, 
numbered 36710, 36711, 36712 and 36713 as well as 367114, do 
you recognize these documents? 

A Hell, this was evidently the transcript from Edna 
Healey's notes on our fund-raising meeting the 23zd of Hay 
regarding ouz planned program on SDI. 

fi KoH, who is Edna Healey? 

A She was my ex-secretary who came out of retirement 



ONClAS.SIfl[0 



282 



MAHE : 

2192 
2 193 
2 19U 
2 195 
2196 
2 197 
2198 
2199 
2200 
2201 
2202 
2203 
220>4 
2205 
2206 
2207 
2208 
2209 
2210 
221 1 
2212 
2213 
22114 
2215 
2216 



HIR2U5000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 92 



b«causa sha has axcsllent shorthand, to uork at that 
masting . 

2 And sha raada a vaibatin transcript of what was said 
at tha raaating? 

A Not varbatin, no. 

2 Sha mada vary datailad notas? 

f. Yas, sha want as iar as sha could. Thera was so 
much activity and discussion and brainstorming that sha lost 
a lot, and sha said, this is as much as I can kaap up with. 

S Now, ara pagas 36710 and 36711 a first typad draft 
of har notas and tha succaading pagas an aditad draft? 

MS. nOXRISON: Doas this hava to do with Nicaragua? 
HR. FRYMAN: y^s . 

THE WITNESS: I navar raad this in its antirety 
bafora. In fact, all X raad war* tha quotas in tha 
nawspapar, so--Z think thara wara thraa quotas out of this in 
tha nawspapar. 

BY HR. rRYHAN: 

fi Hall, it appaars that tha lattar thraa pagas of tha 
saaa tant at tha initial two pagas. but thara waxa soma 
paragraphs Inaartad and soma minor adlting. You can look at 
tha copy yoursalf and saa if you agraa with it? 

A Okay, suraly. 

ns. nORRISON: Z maan, it is what it is. If it is 
aditad, it is aditad. So, ha is going to giva you a non- 



IINWSSiflED 



283 



UNMSIFIEO 



Kknt HIR2>45000 Ulf ULnilalirini PAGE 93 



2217 
2218 
2219 
2220 
2221 
2222 
2223 
222M 
2225 
2226 
2227 
2228 
2229 
2230 
2231 
2232 
2233 
223tt 
2235 
2236 
2237 
2238 
2239 
22*40 
22141 



axpsrt opinion as to what it is. Doesn't s«am to have any 
valua to it. 

BY HR. FRVnAN: 

Q Ara you auat* that Hcs . Haalay mad* notas of tha 
maatxng and praparad a transccipt, and than tha initial 
draft of that was aditad by soaaona? 

A No. 

fi You ata not awaz<' of that? 

A Sha only appaarad at this maating and than sha got 
ill> and than I know sha told na sha was going to gat us tha 
racozds of tha naating. and than I know--! know that tha 
tacotd cana to tha offica> that thay said Edna's notas hava 
shewn up and that is all I know. I navaz lookad at thaa, 
bacausa tha — tha pzojactad piogram. of couzsa. navaz cama 
off. and X just navaz had a chanca to raviaw than. 

e Who was spaaking at this fund-zaising maating on ttay 
23 whan sha mada tha notas? 

A I spoka pazt of tha tlaa. Ha had ouz antiza staff 
thaza. Z think, six oz aight paopla thaza. 

ft So. who spoka othaz than youzsalf? 

A It would hava baan Jana McLaughlin and Dan Conzad 
and Chzls Llttladala, Cliff Saith. Dan Conzad— at a Binuta . 

ft And this aaating was hald on Hay 23. 1986? 

A That is what tha data says. 

fi Is that oonsistant with youz zaeollaction? 



WlteSW 



284 



KAHE: 

22142 
22143 
22(4K 
22145 
22<46 
22<47 
22(48 
22M9 
2250 
2251 
2252 
2253 
225>4 
2255 
2256 
2257 
2258 
2259 
2260 
2261 
2262 
2263 
226*4 
2265 
2266 



HIR2US000 ypll^tAbulntU P*" 9'* 

MS. nORRISOH: Do you hav* a zacollaction? 
THE WITNESS: I don't •vn, know what day that was, 
but I know it was in Hay son* tina. 
BY nx. FRYHAK: 

2 It was in May oi 1986? 

A Yas. 

S And this followad your axpatianca with th« Central 
Amazican Fraadom Pzograa in tha aarliar months oi 1986, did 
it not? 

A Yas, that progzaa was dozitant. not daad, but just 
dormant. 

2 And you war* turning your attantion to anothar 
program involving tha Stzatagie Oaiansa Initiativa? 

A Ha had startad in April. 

2 And wara you drawing upon your aKparianca in tha 
Cantral Amarican Program in planning your iund-raising for 
tha SOI program? 

A It was — oi coursa, wa had axparianea thara, yas. It 
was a littla diiiarant in that wa wara going to do survays. 
Wa had a iaaling--! had a iaaling that SOI was a vary popular 
issua among tha Amarican paopla, but had not baan axplainad 
eozraotly . 

I wantad to datazmlna what it was about SOI that was 
kaaping tha undarstandlng of tha Amarican paopla incorzact. 
and so. wa wara going to commission Arthur rinklastain to do 



UNCLASSIFIED 



285 



NAHE: 
2267 
2268 
2269 
2270 
2271 
2272 
2273 
2274 
227S 
2276 
2277 
2278 
2279 
2280 
2281 
2282 
2283 
228K 
2285 
2286 
2287 
2288 
2289 
2290 
2291 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR2M5000 IIIVI.I ^\\IM^II PAGE 95 
a sarias of studlas around th* country to try to find out 
what it was that was tha Kay to halping tha Amarlcan peopla 
undarstand tha valua of SDI. and that uas part oi out 
progran, was to gat a handla. a vary aKtansiva handla on a 
huga sanpla oi opinion on SDI. and what paopla thought about 
it, and how--how it could ba aifactivaly axplainad to tha 
Amarlcan paopla. 

2 But your axparianca in tha lassons you had learnad 
in fund-raising — 

KS . nORRISOK: Ton, wa will eonfass that Hay cama 
aftar April. March, Fabruary and January in 1986, and most 
of us who wara aliva in April of 1986 knaw mora than than ue 
did in January of 1986. That is obvious, okay? This has 
nothing to do with Nicaragua. Can wa mova on to somathing 
that is ralavant? 

HR. rRYMAM: Hall, it is intarasting you now say it 
has nothing to do with Nicaragua, sinca you producad this 
docuaant in rasponsa to a subpoana asking for documants 
ralating to Nicaragua. 

HS. notmsON: Ua took, ai Z think you undarstood at 
tha tlma. a vary broad viaw which was consistant with our 
discussions of cartain of tha raquiramants in that subpoana 
which raquitad us to produoa avary doeumant in tha 
organization's possassion that listad or usad cartain words 
lika Prasldant. Hhita Housa. North and a variaty of othar 



UNCLASSIFIED 



286 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAME: HIRauSOOO W • • Wfcil 1**** ■ • n^w^ p^gj gg 



2292 
2293 
229U 
2295 
2296 
2297 
2298 
2299 
2300 
2301 
2302 
2303 
230U 
2305 
2306 
2307 
2308 
2309 
2310 
2311 
2312 
2313 
231(( 
2315 
2316 



namas and idantifying taims, and wa would navar hava wantad 
to ba in a position to hava baan accusad oi withholding a 
docunant fion you that was callad for by tha subpoana. 

That doasn't nacassaiily maan ua hava to spend tima 
this aitarnoon having Hi. Channall answering questions about 
documents that are not relevant to your mandate. 

MX. FRYHAH: In my judgment, these questions are 
relevant, and I intend to ask these questions. 

THE WITNESS: Go ahead. 

BY HR. FRYHAK: 
2 Now. X was asking you. Hz. Channall. i£ in your iund- 
raising maeting in Hay o£ 1986. with regard to SOI and your 
plans for raising funds from your family of contributors, 
ware you drawing upon your exparlanca that you had in fund- 
raising for tha Central America Program? 
A Probably. 

8 Now. in this doctuiant at page 36712. it states, so 
when thasa people give us 430.000 and our ads cost *3S.0OO a 
day around tha country, they aza In many districts literally 
giving a political contribution to support President 
Reagan's Congressional candidates. 

Do you know who made that statement at tha meeting? 

ns. HORRISONi Mr. rzyaan, this document, the 
meeting, had nothing whatsoever to do with Nicaragua. That 
is a hypothetical phrase. It doasn't matter who it was made 



UNCIASSIHED 



287 



UNCUSSIHED 



MAKE: HIR2US000 llflltt Hiltlll ll_U PAGE 97 



2317 
2318 
2319 
2320 
2321 
2322 
2323 
232i« 
232S 
2326 
2327 
2328 
2329 
2330 
2331 
2332 
2333 
233i« 
2335 
2336 
2337 
2338 
2339 
23X0 
23m 



by. Th« stat«ii«nt has nothing to do "with th« iacts 
undarlying tha subject mattar that brings us all togathat 
iot this graat occasion. 

HR. FRXMAN: You nay ansuaz tha quastion. 

ns . MORRISOK^ Ha is not going to answar tha 
quastion. Wa hava got to dtaw tha lina sonauhata. and it is 
not ralavant to uhat you all aza supposad to ba looking at. 

nR. FRYMAN: xza you diractlng hia not to ansuar tha 
quastion? 

ns. nORRISOK: Yas. and I would say part oi tha 
ioundatlon ior that is bacausa ouz mission haza is not to 
iiguza out what Hr . Channall's political philosophy was at 
in 1985, 1986> or any othaz tin*. It has to do with what ha 
had to do, if anything. In connaotlon with oontza fund- 
zaising. Ha ara all antitlad to think and say what wa want. 
Lat's gat to Nlcazagua. 

BY HR. rRYHAN' 
e Now, Hz. Channall, was It your aKparlanca in tha 
Cantzal Aaazioan fund-raising eaapaign that whan your 
contributor* gava dollars for tha talavision ads, thay wara 
lltarally making a political contribution to support 
Prasldant Raagan's Congrassional candldatas? 
A No. 
ft Uhy was that diffarant froa tha SDZ prograa? 

ns. nottXSON' Ha doasn't hava to dlffarantiata why 



UNClASSIFe 



288 



23U2 
23143 
23t4>4 
23(45 
23(46 
23147 
23U8 
23<49 
2350 
2351 
2352 
2353 
235M 
2355 
2356 
2357 
2358 
2359 
2360 
2361 
2362 
2363 
236U 
2365 
2366 



HIR2U5000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 98 



it was diifsiant from the SDI program. Mr. Fryman. 

MR. FRYHAN: Ar« you directing him not to answer? 

ns. MORRISON: Yes, I an. 

BY MR. FRYMAH: 
2 There is also the statement on this page. Mr. 
Channell. ''and being that it is an election year, ue can 
hype this issue and it will become known (implied) who is 
supporting this issue-the incumbent or the challenger. Ua 
are really going to be giving a «30.000-plus contribution to 
the challenger candidate.'' 

Is that a statement you made in this meeting, Mr. 
Channell? 

ns. nORRISON: He doesn't have to answer that. This 
is a meeting that had nothing to do with Nicaragua. 

MR. FRYMAN: He will answer it unless you direct him 
not to, Mrs. Morrison. 

ns . nORRISOK: I am directing him not to answer the 
question. 

HR. FRYnAK: All right, we will make a record on 
this, and then we will decide — or it will be decided whether 
or not he has to answer these questions. 

BY MR. FRYMAN! 
S Again, Mr. Channell. was that statement consistent 
with youz experience with respect to contributions to the 
Central Amezlcan campaign that contributions to your 



UNCLASSIFIED 



289 



NAHE 
2367 
2368 
2369 
2370 
237 1 
2372 
2373 
237U 
2375 
2376 
2377 
2378 
2379 
2380 
2381 
2382 
2383 
238U 
2385 
2386 
2387 
2388 
2389 
2390 
2391 



HIRZUSOOO 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 99 



organizations were raally contributi-ons to candidates m the 
Congtassional racas? 
& No. 

2 Turning to tha next page, 36713, Mr. Channall, in 
t>.a middle of tha page, states "'including this approach on 
someone like Harry Lucas, Barbara Keuington, Ellen Garwood, 
nel Salwaser, Salvatore or innumerable political crazies, 
will have an incredible impact.'' 

Was that a statement that you made, Mr. Channell? 
HS. nORRISOH: It is an irrelevant point, Mr. 
Fryman. The meeting had nothing to do with Nicaragua. 

HR. FRYHAN: Are you directing him not to answer? 
ns. HORRISOH: Yes. 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 
2 Do you Know who made that statement, Mr. Channell? 
ns . MORRISON: Same objection. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 Were those individuals listed in that paragraph, 
contributors to the Central Aaexlcan program run by your 
organizations? 

A Three of thea were. 
2 Hhlch three? 

A The first three. I don't think Mr. Salvatore gave 
to us. 

2 Well, you say the first three. I take it you don't 



UNCLASSIFIED 



82-694 0-88-11 



290 



HAHE- 
2392 
2393 
23914 
2395 
2396 
2397 
2398 
2399 
21400 
21401 
2M02 
21403 
2((0>4 
21405 
2U06 
21407 
21408 
2(409 
2(410 
2(411 
2m2 
2(413 
2(41(4 
2(415 
2(416 



HIR2US00O 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 100 



maan Mc . Lucas? 

A I am soiiy, h« didn't 9iv«, «ithar. 

2 So you say nis. Nauington, Hts . Garwood and Mr. 
Saluaser ? 

A The zaason why thay gava oe caason why I listad them 
is not because they gava to us but because they had a 
certain intensity of political commitment. 

£ Kou, did the app oach raiaEEad to in this memorandum 
have an incredible impact on the three individuals you 
identified as having contributed to the Central American 
campaign? 

ns . HORRISOK: Same objection, and same direction. 
He. Tryman. Doesn't hava anything to do with-- 

m. rXYMAK: Well. I Hill restate the question, rirs. 
Morrison, but I think it vary specifically does. 
BY HR. rRYMAH! 

ft Did tha fund-raising approach which is described in 
this meaorandtm. did that approach have an incredible impact 
on Mrs. Nawlngton. Hex. Garwood and Mr. Salwaser in your 
fund-Ealslng affoEts with Easpaot to Cantsal AmaEica? 

HS. MORRISON' You aEa Eight. diffeEent objection, 
no foundation for tha question. Ko basis to believe that 
appEoaoh was used In connection with CantEal AmaEican fund- 
raising. 

MR. FRYMAN: Hall, let aa try to respond to Hes. 



UNCUSSIRED 



291 



NAHE 

2417 

2U 18 

24 19 

2420 

2421 

2422 

2423 

2424 

2425 

2426 

2427 

2428 

2429 

2430 

2431 

2432 

2433 

2434 

2435 

2436 

2437 

2438 

2439 

2440 

2441 



U'NCUSSIFIED 



HIR245000 
Horrison's concatn, nr . Channall. 



PAGE 101 



BY HR. FRYMAN: 
2 Was this fund-raising approach that is dascribed m 
this mamorandun usad by youz organizations in tha Central 
American campaign? 
A Ho . 

2 It was not? 
A It was not. 

2 Tha approach that is dascribad in this mamorandun. 
Ht . Channall. is to point out to contributors that their 
contributions to your organization ara tax-daductibla . is it 
not? 

HS. HORRISOM: Wait a minuta. I aa going to object 
to that ona. too. Ua ara not going to discuss what is in 
this memo, because ua can spend tha day on whether the memo 
says A and whether it says B or maybe a little of each of 
tham or-- 

HR. FRYHAK' At tha rata we ara going, wa ara going 
to spend mora than a day: that is up to you. 

HS. MORRISOK: If you want to formulate a question 
about whether a particular aspect of his campaign involved a 
ragular methodology, let's have at it. But a multi-page 
doouitant which has nothing to do with Central America is or 
is not properly characterized as something that fairly 
summarizes his approach to Central Amazlca. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



292 



NAME: 
2UU2 
2UU3 
2UUU 
21*145 
2UI46 
24 47 
2<4i48 
2l(it9 
2450 
2t4S1 
2(452 
2I4S3 
2U5I4 
2>455 
2>456 
21457 
2458 



HIR2I45000 



llNtUSW 



PAGE 102 



HR. FRYHAH: H«ll. Hf s. "Horrison, I am trying to 
daal with your obj«ction to my quastion as sayXng thata was 
no foundation with raspect to tha approach described m this 
maaorandum. 

ns . nORRISOH: And you askad tha right question and 
you got the answer; it doesn't. 

MR. FRYHAH: --having been used in the Central 
American campaign. Kow, I am trying to follow up on that by 
getting defined on the record what the approach in this 
memorandum is. I can rephrase the question by asking Hr . 
Channell to summarize the approach that is described in this 
memorandum . 

ns. nORRISON: I don't think wa ought to be talking 
about the memo. If you want to ask him--a particular facet 
of his program in Central America was X or Y, maybe ue can 
gat into that, but I don't think we ought to be basing 
questions on this mamorand«m. It is izrelavant. 



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HIR245000 lllVliI H.l.liril II PAGE 103 
RPTS CANTOR 
DCHK HILTON 
[ 2 : 30 1 



THE WITNESS: I uould lik« to say, I'm not sure you 
know, that this mamoiandun in my viaw do«s not constitute 
naacly all of tha naating. Tha maating was at least three 
hours long, and this is not thra* hours worth of yacKing by 
a long shot. I don't know what was deleted, and I don't 
know what the questions were. As you know, this was a 
meeting, but it's not written up as a question and answer 
format. There are no questions here at all, and yet there 
was a very lively discussion for at least three hours, so I 
have no idea what was deleted, nor do I know where these 
comments are answers to a question, nor do I know what is 
hypothetical, what I really was feeling or what was a 
hypothetical situation, because there is no guidance m the 
literature at all. 

BY HR. FRYHAM: 

2 Are you contending that this is an inaccurate 
aooount? 

A Incomplete. 

fi But not inaccurate of what was reported here? 

A Right, but I think it is very incomplete. Mrs. 
Haley herself said it was very incomplete. She is in her 



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70s. and ua just lan out of hand pouac. 

2 Tha paragraph that ua hava baan discussing, nr . 
Channall, talks about using this approach, and tha following 
paragraph continuas that ' • ua ara going to giva than an 
opportunity to giva a «30,000 tax daductibla political 
contribution, and wa want to tall than how to do it.'' 

Is that a sumitary of tha iund-raising approach that 
was undar discussion at this naating? 

ns . nORRISOK: Objaction; saaa diraction to tha 
witnass, and ua hava not baan discussing this maao. You 
hava baan asking questions basad on it. Wa hava baan 
objacting to it forming tha basis for any quastions. 

HR. riLtnXH' You diract tha uitnass not to answar? 

MS. nORRISOK: Yas. 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 
fi Is that uhat your organizations had baan doing, Mr. 
Channall, in tha Cantial Aaarican pxograit, and by that I 
aaan spaolflcally giving your contributors an opportunity to 
taka a tax daductibla polltloal contribution, and you uara 
tailing thaa hoH to do it^ 
A No. 

fi How a« Nicaragua diffaxant iroa SDI in that 
raspaot? 

HS. HORRISON: Ua a^a not going to talk about SDI. 

HR. FRYHAN: Is that a dizaction for hia not to 



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NAHE 

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ansusr ? 

HS. MORRISON: Yas. 

THE WITHESS: Can I maka a statanant? I would like 
to say that in Hlcaragua ua waca not involvad in elections. 
Wa weta involvad in aducation. and u% uaian't avan thinking 
about alactions, it just wasn't in out ninds . Ua ware 
involvad in a grand aducational procass. That is ona of the 
many laasons that would aaka that difiatant fzom this 
discussion, which, as you know, was a hypothatical deal. 
Nothing avat caaa of it, as you know. 
BY HR. FRYHAK: 

2 In tha last paragraph on paga 36713, tha namorandum 
statas that ''but you can saa wa don't call than 
congrassional districts: wa call than madia aarkats. whara 
intarastingly anough, your congrassaan will haar all this 
aadia. ' ' 

In tha Cantral Aaarican campaign, you callad tha 
araas aadia aarkats. did you not? 

A That's corract. 

fi Old you say. Hr . Channall. that with raspact to 
Kleaxagua and Cantral Aaarlca, you wara not involvad in 
congrassional caapaigns? 

A That's corract. 

2 Mould you turn to docuaant 3600>4, which is a 
talagraa datad Saptaabar 9. 1986. 



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ns. nORRISOK: can you giv* us a rough id«a how far 
down this is? 

HR. FK.tnkH-- Yas. Thay ara in chronological ordar. 
so If you would look for Saptaabar 9, 1986. 

BY HR. FRYHAM: 
fi That appaars to ba a aailgraa which you sant to 
Liautanant Colonal Olivar North, which statas = ''Wa hava 
tha honor to inform you that Congrassaan Hichaal Barnas, foa 
of tha fraadoB fightar Kovamant, advarsary of Pras'dant 
Raagan's foraign policy goals and opponant of tha 
Prasidant's vision for Aaarican saourity in tha futura. has 
baan soundly dafaatad in his bid to bacoaa tha Daaocratic 
candidate for tha U.S. Sanata froa Maryland Kis dafaat 
signals an and to much of tha disinformation and unwxsa 
af f ort diractad at crippling your foraign policy goals . \l» 
at tha Anti-Tarrorisa Aaarican Comaittaa (ATAC) faal proud 
to hava particlpatad in a campaign to ansura Congrassman 
Barnas' dafaat.'* 

Did you sand that talagram to Colonal Korth? 

ns. nOItlSON: can wa hava just a minuta to consult 
hara for a saeond? 

(Hltnass and counsal consult.] 

ns. nOKKISON: Z'm going to maka tha sama objactlon 
that I hava mada to your aarllaz quastions about documants 
and issuas that don't involva Nicaragua. This is a talagram 



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wmsuB 



PAGE 107 



that daals not with anything ralated to contra aid. Central 
Amarica or Nicaragua. It's sonathing that involves an 
organization of Mr. Channell's that was not involvad in 
supporting Micar aguan-relatad programs, and therefore I 
ob:ect to its being used as the basis for questions of nr . 
Channall in connection with what brings us together here 
today . 

HR. FRYMAH: The question on the floor is, did he 
send the telegran? 

ns . nORRISOK: it do«sn't matter. The objection is 
to anything related to the docunant. It's an irrelevant 
document . 

HR. HcGOUGH: Even though it refers to the freedom 
fighter^? 

HS . HORRISOK: The document has nothing to do with 
any organization of Mr. Channell's that did anything with 
respect to the freedom fighter movement. 

HR. HoGOUGHi That wasn't the original objection. 
The original objection is that the telegram had nothing to 
do with thtt ixeedom fighters. I think the objection was 
that the telegram didn't have anything to do with the 
Kicaxaguan issue, but it does in that it refers directly to 
the freedom fighters. 

HS. HORRISOK: The words appear to be there, but it 
doesn't have reference to the freedom fighter movement or 



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any activity lalatcd to tha fracdon iightac movaaant. 
fiaadom fightar novanant is in a dascriptiva phasa usad 
about a iormaz Congtassitan . 

MR. McGOUGH: I think you aza raaching on this. 

ns. noRRISOK: can I tall you for tha racord what 
ny pzoblaa is? I think thaza is sons zaaching going on xn 
tazms oi tha quastions and I'a zaluctant to coma to thai. 
conclusion baeausa> quita fzankly. ua hava baan haza 
inioznally and iozmally in ozdaz to answaz youz quastions 
and halp you go thzough tha iaots and cizcuastancas and all 
kinds of azguably tangantlally zalatad aatazial that will 
halp you undazstand tha aission that iozaad this coaaittaa 
and that bzinga us haza today. 

Tha pzoblaa is that I don't want to saa us gat 
sidatzacXad izoa that honozabla aission by tzying to fezzat 
out oz tzy to zandaz zalavant Mhat Hz. Channall's pazsonal 
viaws aza> what his philosophy is > what his politics aza. oz 
uhaza thay aay oz aay not ooinoida oz sapazata fzoa anybody 
alsa who amy hava oontidazad that oz othaz political issuas, 
and it deasn't saaa to aa that gatting into docuaants that 
don't hava anything to do dizaetly with his activitias in 
eonnaotion with tha suppozt oi Cantzal iaazica and 
Nioazaguan izaadoa iightazs has anything to oiiaz any oi us 
haza that is wozthwhila oz wozth puzsulng. 

HK. HcGOUGH: Just ioz tha zacozd lat aa say on 



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HIR2US000 llIYIll rmi_l%#l" ' PAGE 109 

behalf o± th« S«nata committaa that I hava stayad mum duzing 
tha dabata ovai tha last azguaant. I fait tha issuas were 
baing iaixly wall joinad, but on bahalf of tha Sanata 
comnittaa, I don't think frankly you hava a lag to stand on. 

It's a diract zafacanca to tha fraadon fightaz novanant, 
tha Barnas canpaign is wall documantad as baing zalated to 
tha Nicazaguan issua. I uill pass it back to Ton, but I 
think this is ona uhaza tha Sanata conaittaa and tha Housa 
comnittaa ara assantially standing-- 

nR. OLIVER: I would lika to say for tha zacotd 
also that Congzassaan Baznas was tha Chairman of tha Latin 
Anazican Afiaizs Subconmittaa daallng with tha issuas of 
Cantzal Amazica throughout 1985 and 1986. It was tha Baznas- 
Hanilton anandmant and tha Baznas-Hanllton laglslation which 
tha Cantzal Amazlcan fzaadom pzogram was dasignad to defeat 
in 1986. Hz. Barnas was tha laading opponent in tha Housa 
of Rapzasantativas to aid to iraadom fighters. 

ns. nORRISOK: And ha lost that issua and ha lost 
tha election. By eKplozing fozaaz Congzassman Baznas in 
connection Mlth this matter. Z would like to know what issua 
wa aza going to puzsua that has any maaningful and honorable 
zalavanca to why we are here. That is my concern. Hz. 
Oliver. 

HR. HcGOUGH: Again you have got a mailgzan to 
Olivez Nozth zeiezzing to Congzassman Baznas and the fzeedon 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Kkni- HIR2I45000 . IJIllfkl V^^'"" •™"' PAGE 110 

263U iightsrs. incorporating ATAC in its tarms. To raa it isn't 

2635 avan a closa quastion. 

2636 HS. nORRISOK: ATAC had nothing to do with 

2637 Nicaragua, nothing. 

2638 HR. HcGOUGH: Thay caztainly appaar in tha Sana 

2639 mailgram saying that paopla at ATAC ara proud to participate 

2640 in tha canpaign to ansura Congrassman Barnas' defeat. Just 
26<41 looking for a flat-out juxtaposition, it's thara. I think 
26>(2 it certainly provides suiiiciant foundation to inquire 
26143 further, and the question that is on tha record now is 
26<4<4 simply whether Mr. Channell authored this. To my mind it's 
26(45 dangerously closa to a congressional objection. 

26<46 ns. nORRISOK' li we want to talk about where we 

26147 are going on this issue, I mean if we are going to get into 

26U8 issues that have nothing to do with Micaragua and whether or 

26<49 not there was support or there wasn't support, and some 

2650 conversation, organization or human relationship that Mr. 

2651 Channell had, I don't think that is relevant. If you want 

2652 to t^lk to Hr . Channell about whether he dealt with Colonel 

2653 North in connection with is dealings with him on Nicaragua. 
265t« about Congressman Barnes, that may be one thing. 

2655 HR. HcGOUGH: But I think the question on the 

2656 record which you instructed the witness not to answer is, 

2657 did he offer this telegram or this mailgram? 

2658 ns. MORRISON: Because I think without reference to 



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this particular mailgram, thartf. ar« lots of questions that 
nay ba askabla with raspact to Colonal North, with raspect 
to his activitias. 

HR. ncGOUGH: That may wall ba but it's not other 
questions ua can ask but uhathai wa ara entitled to ask this 
one, and I think wa ara. I will turn it back to you. Tore. 
I guess whara tha record stands now there is a question, did 
nr . Channall send or author this nailgram. and there is an 
instruction, as I understand it, not to answer that 
question . 

HS. HORRISOK: That's right. Tha instruction 
stands . 

BY HR. FRYHAK: 

2 Did you understand, Hr . Channall, that Congressman 
Barnes was one of tha leading opponents to aid ior tha 
contras? 

A Yas. 

S Had you had discussions with Colonal North about 
tha daiaat of Congressman Baxnas in his race for tha 
noainatlon fot tha Sanata? 

A No. 

a Had you discussed that race with anyone? 

A Oh> yas. 

fi Had your organizations or had any of your 
organizations paid for any talavision adwartiseaents in 



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PAGE 112 



connaction with that rac«? 

A Yas. 

2 Which organization? 

ns. nORRISOK: Again, sana objaction, has no 
ralavanca to Nicaragua. 
BY MR. FRYHAK: 

2 Did tha talavision advaitisamants discuss 
Congrassnan Barnas' position with raspact to Nicaragua? 

A You ara not talking about his alaction campaign? 
Ara you talking about his alaction canpaign? 

e Kara thara ads that talatad to Congrassnan Barnes 
that did not involva his alaction canpaign? 

A Yas. 

fi Hhlch ads wara thosa? 

A Santinal ads> lobbying ads. 

2 And what was tha subjaet oi thosa ads? 

A Iha placa oi laglslation baiora tha Housa during 
Juna on tha Niearaguan aid bill. 

ft And Mara thosa talavision ads that wara run in tha 
Washington sadla aazkat? 

A Yas. and Maryland. 

fi And was tha objactiva oi thosa ads to causa 
Congrassaan Baznas to changa his position on Nicaragua aid? 

A Xhat was tha hopa . 

fi Did you consldaz that a raalistio hopa? 



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HIR2145000 



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A Hopa is hopa. 

2 Uas th«i« also a long-rang* plan to us« those ads 
in piapaxation fox tha upconing alaction canpaign that ha 
was going to ba involved in? 

A Mo. 

8 Ratuzning to tha alaction ads that you spacifically 
zaiarzad to, whan did thosa ads tun? 

MS. nORRISON: Izzalavant. Mr. Ftynan. you hava 

tha list whan tha ads waza zun if you naad to iind out. 

; 

Thay aza accozding to Hz. Channall objactivaly not zalatad 
to Nicaragua. Uhathar or not ha supported a particular 
candidate for a particular office, absent soma excess that 
hasn't been shown, it really isn't relevant to these 
proceedings . 

By HR. rRYHAN: 

Q nr . Channell, would you look at Exhibit 2? 

A Is that what this on* is? 

e Yes. 

A Hhat do you want ■• to do with this? Stick it in 
here or do you want it back? 

ft Just put it there. If you would look at an 
analysis II-K in Exhibit 2. 

A Thar* ar* s*v*ral pages of K. 

fi If you would look at th* first peg*, you will sea a 
r*f*r*nc* to s*v*ral Barnas adv*ztls*a*nts . Th* first on* 



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HIR2>45000 



fSLASSm 



PAGE 1114 



IS ''Bacnts: Oo«s ha know?'* Do you lacall that ad? 

A Ganaially, yes. 

Q Was that a lobbying ad or was that an alaction ad? 

A This would hava baan a lobbying ad. 

MR. FRYnAH: Would you taad tha last ansuar back? 
(Tha rapoctar laad tha racotd as zaquasted] 
BY MR. FRYMAK! 

2 And tha naxt is idantiiiad as ''Barnas^ Fact 
ehaek . ' ' Do you know what that ad' was? 

A Ganazally. 

fi And what typa was that? 

A It was a lobbying buying ad also. 

a On down thara is an idantiiication of an aid, 
''Baxnas: lima chack.*' Do you know what that ad was? 

A Yas. It talkad about how much tiaa is lait until 
tha vota occurs for him to changa his mind. I ramambar 
that, sort of lika a clock, hava hour laft, 15 minutas laft. 

fi And did you eonsidar that a lobbying ad or a 
campaign ad? 

A Lobbying ad. 

ft Thara ara also rafaranoas thara to ''Barnas: 
Pzototypas . ' ' Oo you know what that rafars to? 

A Yas, from what Adam Goodman said to ma, ha callad 
tha typa of ad wa usad or wara going to usa in savaral 
districts, ha mada tha Barnas ad and than said if wa naad to 



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us« this in anothar congt«ssional district, ua will, and so 
th« Bainas copy, original tapa, bacama tha prototype ioi 
potantially othars. Thay didn't naad to do it that way. but 
that is uhy thay call it prototypes. 

2 Mr. Channall. did you consider tha Barnes race 
signiiicant because of the position that Congressman Barnes 
had taken on contra aid legislation? 

A Significant to what? 

2 Significant to your organization and taking a 
position on defeating Congressaan Barnes? 

A Not particularly. The Barnes race uas sort of 
popular frankly anong our contributors, because he had been 
such an outspoken critic, but very early in the suiiiier it 
uas quite clear that he was going to lose the election, that 
he had no aoaentum, that his strategy was one that--he :ust 
wasn't going to get anywhere in his election bid, and I 
began to turn ay attention to the possibility that the 
Republican candidate aight indeed be able to create enough 
strength in Maryland with the right type of support to 
possibly win. Z had no idea that Michael Barnes was going 
to be so weak. He found hia to be weak very early. The 
polls that X read throughout the state of Maryland 
newspapeta found hia to be weak very early, and that he 
would not even be a significant factor in the caapaign in 
the suaaer and fall, so when Z began to think about 



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political campaigns, I turnad my attantion to how ua might 
ba abla to halp a Rapublican win against tha opponant whom I 
was convincad would ba Barbaia HiKulski. vary, vary early in 
tha summaz . 

2 Did you discuss Congrassman Baxnas with Chris 
Littladala? 

MS. MORRISOK: Objaction. Tha sama basis. I hope 
ua ara not going to spand a lot mora tima, Hz. Fryman, on 
tha issua oi Hz. Barnas and his political campaign, and who 
in this aarth Hz. Channall may hava spokan to about that. 
You askad and I didn't say a paap whathaz ha discussed that 
issua with Colonal Korth. Whathaz ha discussed it with 
somebody alsa was a mambaz oi his staif and who wozkad with 
him on many issues that had nothing to do with Nicaragua, 
freedom fighter aid, or matters that are before your 
committee just doesn't seem relevant, unless we are on soma 
mission hare that I don't undatstand. 

HR. FRYIIAM: Are you directing the witness not to 
answez? 

nS. nORRISOK: Yes, I am. 

HR. FRYHAK: Would the zepoztar mazk this document 
as Channall Exhibit U for idantiiicatlon. 

(Tha following document was marked as Channell 
Deposition Exhibit U for identification: I 

BY HR. FRYHAK: 



(INCUJSIflEO 



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HIR2U5000 



UNCIASSIFIEO 



PAGE 1 17 
Mr. Channall, i shou you a docunant that has been 



producad by your counsal which is a paga of handwritten 
notes that has your identifying number 37851 on it. The 
marking in yellow as added by the staff of the committee and 
was not on the note as produced. Do you recognize the 
handwriting on that note? 

A Actually I don't. 

fi Is it nr . Littledala's handwriting? 

A I don't know. It doesn't mean it isn't. 

2 You don't recognize it? 

A I don't recognize it. 

e At the bottom of the page there is a note that 
begins. ''Giddens re CIA, Hlcaragua, embassy security,*' and 
it continues. ''Destroy Barnes — use him as object lesson to 
other. R.R. informed on his return.'' Do you recall any 
discussion with Mr. Littledale to that effect? 

A This sounds like something that someone told him or 
he was writing notes about a phone conversation that he had 
with Gidden ox something. It doesn't mean anything to me. 

fi Th« pending question is. do you recall a discussion 
that you hmd with Hr . Littledale, where the conversation 
dealt with destroy Barnes, use him as an object lesson? 

I Ko, I don't know where that came from. 

Q There is a further note at the top that states, 
''Put Barnes out of polities. li we get rid of Barnes, we 



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28>48 
28(49 
2850 
2851 
2852 
2853 
285(4 
2855 
2856 
2857 
2858 



HIR245000 



UNCLASSIHED 



PAGE 118 



get rid of tha ring leadat and rid of th« problam.*' Do you 
racall a discussion to that effect with Mr. Littladala? 

A I'm sura that that lapiasantad my views at one time 
or another on Congressman Barnes. As I said, I determined 
fairly early in the summer that Congressman Barnes was not 
going to make it in the election, that the Democratic Party 
of Maryland was going to take him out of politics. 

2 There is a further reference there to a ''special 
PAC to do only one thing, to rid Congress of congressmen 
that are trying to undermine the President in his 
antiterrorist policies. Barnes trying to indict 011ie--wants 
to get at R.R. --trying to use' '--there is a word I can't 
read-- ''to elevate his Senate caapaign--if wa can beat him he 
is out of Congress.'' Do you recall any discussion with Mr. 
Littledale about the establishment of a special PAC for 
purposes such as described there? 

A Well, we established in the spring, late spring of 
'86, the Antiterrorist American Committee, to work on this 
issue, antiterrorism, the President's antiterrorism 
policies. This must have been written, frankly, earlier 
than that possibly, because after we established the PAC, 
there was a name, and so he wouldn't have done that. He 
would have put ATAC, so this obviously is something that is 
conceptual, and prior to our establishment of the PAC in the 
spring, because he is describing something that hasn't 



UNCIASSIHED 



309 



NAHE : 
2859 
2860 

286 1 
2862 
2863 
286U 
2865 
2866 
2867 
2868 
2869 
2870 

287 1 
2872 
2873 
28714 
2875 
2876 
2877 
2878 
2879 
2880 
2881 
2882 
2883 



HIR245000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 119 

happened yet, and ue established that I thinJ< in April or 
May, which, as you know, after that, actually m June and 
then early July, I found out about it in raid July, because I 
had been gone for three weeks in June and early July. The 
polling that I read as soon as I came back indicated that 
Congressman Barnes was going to be rejected by the 
Democratic Party of Maryland, a tremendous rejection. 

S But election advertisements were still sponsored by 
one of your organizations against Congressman Barnes, uare 
they not? 

A No . 

S They were not? 

A No campaign messages against Congressman Barnes. 

S How did ATAC then participate in a campaign to 
ensure Congressman Barnes' defeat? 

MS. MORRISON: He aze getting off the Nicaraguan 
problem again, Hz. Fryman, and that is the danger of this. 
Ue could spend an awful lot of time exploring every 
position, policy and objective that Hr . Channell has pursued 
over the last couple of years. It is not why we are here. 
If we could get back to Nicaragua, I think we probably spent 
the last hour on a couple of documents that are really 
highly ob jeotlonable . 

HR. rRYHAN: I think, Hrs . Hozzlson, that I have 
explained why I believe these questions are relevant to 



UNCLASSIFIED 



310 



HAKE: 
288U 
2885 
2886 
2887 
2888 
2889 
2890 
2891 
2892 
2893 
289(4 
2895 
2896 
2897 
2898 
2899 
2900 
2901 
2902 
2903 
290U 
2905 
2906 
2907 
2908 



HIR2145000 



PAGE 120 



Kioaragua and to tha subject mattec of tha invastigation. 
Thata is no naad to lapaat that. 

I hava a panding quastion. I would ask tha witness 
to answer it. unless you dizact him not to. 

ns. MORRISON: For my benefit, can I hava tha 
quastion zead back oz zepeated? 

[The zepoztez zead the record as requested. ] 

HS . rtORRISON: We are here to help you as much as 
we can with respect to Nicaragua-related issues. Ua are not 
hare to talk about ATAC, which didn't do anything on 
Nicaragua, and we are not here to talk about particular 
campaigns that may have been directed towards particular 
candidates that don't have anything to do with Central 
America . 

BY HR. FRYMAN: 
2 Again, Mr. Channell, answer the question unless 
your lawyer directs you not to. 

MS. MORRISON: He is directed not to. 

BY HR. FRYMAN: 
a Mr. Channell. turning back to Exhibit 1 and the 
letter from Lichensteln C Company dated May 23, 1986, which 
is document 76111, is that a report to you from Mr. 
Liohenstaln summarizing his efforts in the lobbying 
campaign? 

A Exactly. I think you are missing a page. 



UNCLASSra 



311 



2909 
2910 
29 1 1 
29 12 
29 13 
29 m 
29 IS 
2916 
29 17 
29 18 
2919 
2920 
2921 
2922 
2923 
2924 
292S 
2926 
2927 
2928 
2929 
2930 
2931 
2932 
2933 



HIR2U5000 



UNCLHSSIFIED 



PAGE 121 



J> In any case, this is at least one page of a repcrt 
iron Mr. Lichanstem. I don't have any other pages. 

A I don't either. 

fi Turning to the neKt docunent, which is a letter to 
Jane McLaughlin iron Bruce Hooper dated May 27, and it is 
docunent 27706, in that letter, Mr. Kooper asked to ple.'i.se 
have Ollie contact ne to > b . ma know what he xS gong .o do 
with his contribution, i4 that is possible. Has this letter 
discussed with you? 

A No . 

2 Did you have any involvement in the contribution of 
Mr. Hooper and his meeting with Colonel North? 

A Mo. 

a Do you know whether there was any discussion 
between Colonel Korth and Mr. Hooper about his contribution 
and what it was being used for? 

A No. 

2 Turning to the next two documents, both dated June 
1^, 1986, the first numbered 29099, which is a confirmation 
oi consulting axrangement between Spitz Channell and Dan 
KuyKendell. and the second number 3U966, concerning a 
monthly budget for the Gulf and Caribbean roundation. what 
wes Hx. Kuykendall retained to do in June of 1986? 

A He was becoming a general consultant for all of our 
projects. I had appreciated very much his brain power X 



IINClAJSm 



312 



NAME • 
29314 
293S 
2936 
2937 
2938 
2939 
29U0 
29141 
29U2 
2943 
2914U 
29>45 
29<46 
2947 
29148 
29149 
2950 
2951 
2952 
2953 
295U 
2955 
2956 
2957 
2958 



wussm 



HIR2U5000 Wl f Ul^nalalinril PAGE 122 
had askad him to help rae with Avatything ua ware going to do 
in the future, and that is what that was about. 

The second letter refers to--I had asked--ac tually , 
ha had asked me ii I would consider taking over the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation, and I said it would be interesting. I 
would like for him to draw up what their budget was and send 
it to me. and that is what he did. 

2 Did you take it over? 

A No. 

2 Hhy not? 

A I just didn't feel that I had the time or the 
interest, frankly, to work on that. 

2 Prior to June of 1986, had Mr. Kuykendall been a 
paid consultant to any of your organizations? 

A Through IBC, of course he had worked with NEPL. 

2 But he had been a consultant to ISC and not 
directly to your organizations? 

A Yes. This would be an agreement between us 
directly. 

2 Turning and passing several docunents, to the 
document dated August 25. 1986. which is headed ''Memorandum 
to David Fischer regarding a draft memorandum for Don 
Regan,'* it was produced by youz counsel, but the 
identification numbers are very faint at the bottom. I 



can't read them. 



nmsim 



313 



UNCUSSIFIED 



HAHE: HIR2(45000 Ul llJl_niJtll I I L U PACE 123 
29591 & If you can raad then, I want youz glassas . We 



2960 

2961 

2962 

2963 

296U 

2965 

2966 

2967 

2968 

2969 

2970 

2971 

2972 

2973 

297t« 

2975 

2976 

2977 

2978 

2979 

2980 

2981 

2982 

2983 



don't hav* an iitpzint. 

2 you can s«* th* k nuabaz at th« baginning. Ficst 
oi all, on tha iitst pag« thaza is soma handwriting that 
says, ''And pzasidant of Santinal.'' Do you zacogniza that 
handwriting? 

i It's mina . 

S It's your handwriting. So I taka it you hava saen 
this docunant baiora? 

A Yas. 

fl Old you drait this documant? 

A I don't think so. 

a Do you know who did? 

A I don't know whathar it would ba Rich Hillar or 
Dan. 

a And it was givan to you on or around August 25, 
1986? 

A tight. 

a Hhat was tha purpos* oi praparing this documant, if 
you know? 

A ill I can think of was that wa wantad to giva Don 
Ragan a suamazy of our work. 

a Did you ask that tha docuaant ba praparad? 

A I'm sura I did. 

a In tha first pazagzaph you stata that "in Januazy. 



l/NWsm 



314 



HAHE' 
298U 
2985 
2986 
2987 
2988 
2989 
2990 
2991 
2992 
2993 
299U 
299S 
2996 
2997 
2998 
2999 
3000 
3001 
3002 
3003 
300(4 
3005 
3006 
3007 
3008 



HIR2<4S000 



UNCLASSIFIE 



PAGE 12U 



1986, KEPL and Santinal initiatad a «(« . 1 nillion ttducational 
and lobbying campaign which «vantually zaachad 25 states. '' 
By that s«nt«nc«, did you understand that you weze 
to tell Don Regan that NEPL and Sentinel had spent Si . 1 
million on this campaign? 

A Say that again. By that sentence? 

2 By this sentence, the first sentence in this draft 
memorandum, was it your intention to tell Don Regan that 
NEPL and Sentinel had spent *U . 1 million on that educational 
and lobbying campaign? 

A This was the budget that we had our goal. X wasn't 
sure exactly how much we ended up spending. This was the 
goal . 

Q Hhat was the source o£ that number? Has that the-- 

A I don't remember. 

S --Central American freedom program memorandum we 
talked about earlier? 

A There were several things. He had some of the 
bills. He didn't have some of the bills. He were just 
projecting some of the expenditure. I don't remember 
exactly what we referred to to get to that. 

fi On down in the third paragraph you state that 
''over (2.5 million went to the television campaign alone.'' 
Hhat is the source of that number? 

A Again, I'm not sure of that at all. I'm not sure 



UNClASSinED 



315 



Hint HIR2>45000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE US 



3009 

30 10 

30 1 1 

30 12 

3013 

30 m 

3015 

3016 

3017 

3018 

3019 

3020 

3021 

3022 

3023 

30214 

3025 

3026 

3027 

3028 

3029 

3030 

3031 

3032 

3033 



that I would havtt known thos« numbars at that time. 

e Who dcvalopAd thasa nuitbars? 

k As I said. I don't know whathar Rich or Dan Conrad 
had workad on this. I just truly don't know. 

S What is your understanding today as to how much was 
spant on tha talavlsion campaign? 

A I don't know. I havan't lookad at thosa numbers 
for a long tiaa . 

e 1£ you would look at Exhibit 2, and particularly at 
analysis II-B. tha first page of II-B, under tha entries 
''project axpandlturas. ' ' this' analysis indicates a total of 
4996, 8M2 spent by your organizations in 1986 through tha 
Goodman Agency. 

A Hhy aa Z not seeing that? Excuse me. Right. 

fi Do you have any basis for believing that there were 
expenditures in addition to that amount for television 
advertisements ? 

A In this program they did it all. all of the 
television. There were a lot more expenditures than 
television. 

ft That's right, but my question at the moment is 
focusing on the television campaign. To your knowledge, did 
one of youz organizations pay for all of the media buys to 
run any of the ads prepared by the Goodman Agency for KEPL 
or ACT? 



UNCUSSIFIED 



316 



303U 
3035 
3036 
3037 
3038 
3039 
30140 
30>41 
30((2 
30U3 
30t4U 
30^5 
30<46 
30^7 
3048 
30M9 
3050 
3051 
3052 
3053 
30514 
3055 
3056 
3057 
3058 



UNCLASSIHED 



HIRaUSOOO lllllil il.l.Ainr II PAGE 126 

A Oh, did one oj our organizations pay ior 
«v«rything? 

2 Lat ma rephrase th« question. 

A I'm confused . 

fi Are you aware of any entity paying for air time for 
ads prepared by Goodman for your organization other than one 
of your organizations? 

A Ho. This must have been a draft or something, 
because there are several figure problems here. It had to 
be a draft because I was writing on it. 

Q In the next paragraph it^ s bitie r out, ''«75,000 was 
spent by Sentinel,'' and then it's written in, ''«75,000,'' 
and there is a note out to the side which says, ''add a 
zero.'* Is that your handwriting? 

A I think so. 

S Was it your belief that Sentinel had spent «75,000? 

A I know it wasn't »7S.000. He knew that. I don't--! 
mean I knew it was not *75.000. 

Q Hhat Bade you believe that it was •750,000? 

A !'■ not sure I believed that, but I knew it 
wasn't — I knew it was a lot more than *7S,000, so I thought 
that there was just a zero missing. I didn't question the 
total, but I did say that this was fax too small. 

fi So adding the zero does not indicate youx belief 
that «750.000 was the amount that Sentinel spent on this 



UNCUSSIHED 



317 



NAME: 

3059 
3060 
306 1 
3062 
3063 
306X 
3065 
3066 
3067 
3068 
3069 
3070 
3071 
3072 
3073 
307U 
3075 
3076 
3077 
3078 
3079 
3080 
3081 
3082 
3083 



HIR2US00O 



canpaign? 



iiHmms 



PAGE 127 



A That's cottact, but it uas much mora than--uhen I 
lookad at that, I just said, wail, this is just a typo. The 
figura would hava baan in tha hundreds of thousands of 
dollars automatically. 

S That paragraph also statas that tha work included 
continuous work with Elliott Abrans? 

A It doas. 

fi What was tha continuous work with Elliott Abraras 
that your organization undertook? 

A Kow, I know I didn't writa tha mamo . I didn't read 
that far. Wa only nat with him twice. 

2 So is that statamant incorrect? 

A That would hava baan incorrect, absolutely. I 
wouldn't hava put that in there. 

S But that is not a statanant that you changed? 

A Ko. 

fi Hhan you ravlawed tha aaBOzanduB? 

A I wouldn't hava put it in because we just met with 
hilt twice at the very beginning oi the year. 

e On the next page, the top paragraph begins, 
''9600,000 was spent on speaking tours.'' So you know tha 
source of that figure? 

A Rich was running the speaking tours, and I would 
have to assume that that is what he said wa had spent. 



liffmim 



318 



NAME : 
3084 
3085 
3086 
3087 
3088 
3089 
3090 
3091 
3092 
3093 
3094 
3095 
3096 
3097 
3098 
3099 
3100 
3101 
3102 
3103 
310U 
3105 
3106 
3107 
3108 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR2t45000 ■. Illllll N.l.linril PAGE 128 

2 Do you knou if that figura as corract or not? 

A I would think that figuza would b* high. 

2 Again, tha next paragraph talks about 985,000 
devoted to nine Washington brieiings. Do you know the 
source of that figure? 

A Again, I don't. I would not have — I don't know how 
they cane to figure that out. 

2 Finally, the me it or and un states that ''it was 
determined that your organizations had carried the program 
successfully into 32 of the 51 Democratic districts that 
ultimately stood with Ronald Keagan on this issue.'' Do you 
know the source of that statement? 

A That would probably have been Dan Kuykendall, since 
I wasn't here the week of the vote or the day of the vote. 
He would have probably had to give me that information. 

2 Mr. Channell, turning to a document dated October 
1, 1986, which is a doc\iment numbered 56302, and it appears 
to be an invoice from KEPL to the Channell Corporation 
concerning a refund request for overpayment of October rent, 
what does that relate to? 

A Z have no idea. 

fi Hhat was the practice of sharing overhead expenses 
among the various organisations that you had? 

A The accountants had worked out a proportion of 
space for each organization, and from what I understand was 



KNCUSSm 



319 



3109 
3110 
3 111 
3112 
3 113 
31 1U 
31 IS 
3116 
31 17 
31 18 
3119 
3120 
312 I 
3122 
3123 
312>4 
3125 
3126 
3127 
3128 
3129 
3130 
3131 
3132 
3133 



HIR2US000 



ONCIASSIFIEO 



PAGE 129 



the policy was to contributa a cartain anount to ganetal 
rent. That is uhat thay uara supposad to do. 

2 And you do not know what this lafund request ioz 
the overpayment concerns? 

A I have navar seen this before, and I'm reading like 
you are. Evidently, ona of the accountants had nade a wrong 
check out or sonethmg. I truly don't know. 

2 If you would look again at Exhibit 2, Ht . Channall, 
and this time analysis II-E, it's haadad ''Intargroup 
Transfers.'' there is an indication on that schedule of a 
series of transfers iron KEPI to Sentinel in March of 1986, 
transfer for ♦30,000 on Harch 7, for «18,000 on March 1M, 
for S19.997 on Harch 2M, for •10, 000 on Harch 25, for 
*25.000 on Harch 26. and for another «20,000 on Harch 28. 
Ware you aware that KEPL was making transfers in amounts of 
that magnitude in March of 1986? 

A No. 

2 To Santinal? 

A Ko. 

2 Is this th« first tima you learned of that? 

A I knaw of ona transfer which actually was a 
mistake, but that's all. 

2 You had no explanation for tha series of transfers 
that are reflected on that schedule? 

A Mo. I would have to--it may be a legitimate 



Mmm 



320 



NAME : 
3134 
313S 
3136 
3137 
3 138 
3139 
3140 
3 tUI 
31U2 
3143 
31(4 >4 
3145 
31146 
31147 
31148 
3149 
31S0 
3151 
3152 
3153 
3154 
3155 
3156 
3157 
3158 



ONCUSSIFIED 



HIR245000 III1III Malalll II II PAGE 130 
transfax, but you would hav« to talk to iiy accountants about 
why that was dona. I just can't halp you on that. Again, I 
will raitarattt that my rola was not hirad and paid. Was 
paying profassional faas to paopla who taiaiiad to roa as 
proiessional CPAs to run thasa organizations financially, 
and wa waia paying tham I thought substantial salarias foe 
substantial conpatanca. 

8 Apart icon that, my quastion is, wara you awaia 
that NEPL was making substantial transiats to Santinal m 
March of 1986? 

A Ho. 

fi And tha answar is no? 

A That's right. 

a And you had not baan awara oi that until today? 

A As I said, I knaw that, lata last yaar wa 
discovarad that thara was ona that was accidantal, a check 
that had baan placad incorractly, but Z was not awara of 
that, no. 

fi Turning, Hr . Channall. to tha naKt documant, which 
is an involoa iron IBC datad Octobax 8. and tha docunant 
nuabar is 27899, is this an axampla oi tha typa of bill you 
would raoalva from IBC for Hr . Flschar's sarvicas? 

A Yas. 

e And than you would pay IBC and IBC would pay Hr . 
rischar. is that corract? 



UNCUSsm 



321 



3159 
3160 

316 1 
3162 
3163 
316U 
3165 
3166 
3167 
3168 
3169 
3170 

317 1 
3172 
3173 



HIR2145000 



Formally . 



IINCUSSIfe 



PAGE 131 



S roimally. Now, turning to th« naxt documant, it's 
a handwrittan statamant from Eric Olsan, datad Octobai 8, 
1986, and it's documant nuabar S71S8, for consulting 
seivicas randarad during Octobar, 1986, for 410,000. Thara 
ara othars of thasa statamants in Exhibit 1, particularly 
thara is a statamant datad Kovambar 3, 1986, for «7500, 
which is 57159, documant Ko . 57159. Thara is a statamant 
d%tad Dacambar 19, 1986, for 410,000 which is document 
57160. Thara is a statamant datad January 5, 1987, for 
«10,000, which is documant 57161. and thara is a statamant 
datad February 18, 1987, for «5,000, which is documant Ko . 
57 162. Tha statamants ara all similar in form. Thay ara 
all handwrittan, and thay all rafax to consulting services 
randarad during a particular month. 



DNcwssm 



2-694 0-88-12 



322 



317U 
317S 
3176 
3177 
3178 
3179 
3180 
3181 
3182 
3183 
318U 
3185 
3186 
3187 
3188 
3189 
3190 
3191 
3192 
3193 
319>t 
3195 
3196 
3197 
3198 



ONcussm 



NAME HIR2U5000 111111 I I1\\|L|LI| PAGE 132 



RPTS HAZUR 
DCHN DONOCK 
3: 30 p.n. 

fi Th« statamttnts total *M2,500. Now, ny quastion or 
my first qu«stion is, what was th« natura of servicas that 
Hr. Olson was parforming for HEPL that ara raflected by 
thasa stataaants? 

ns. nORRISOK: I think It Is fair to say. nr . 
Fryman, just so wa can mova through this vary quickly, that 
thosa hava absolutaly nothing to do with Klcaragua. Hr . 
Olson is an accountant. Thasa wara not mattars that had 
anything to do diractly or avan tangantlally with tha 
Nicaraguan-ralatad activitlas of Hr . Channall's 
organizations. In fact, thay wara not substantiva in tarms 
of tha natura of tha work that was dona. 

riR. FRYHAK: fir. Channall. unlass your counsal is 
dlractlng you not to answar, you may procaad. 

ns . nORRISON: his counsal was hoping to haad off 
tha quaation by tailing you it wasn't ralavant. If I hava 
to, I gu«ss I will dlxaot his not to raspond. 

HK. FRYnXN: Hall, Hrs . Horrlson, I think tha 
quastlon of tha ovarhaad of Hx . Channall's organizations is 
a ralavant Issua to this Invastigatlon, and I would prass 
tha quastlon. 

ns. nORRXSOMi Tha mannar of administration of Mr. 



UNCIASSIHED 



323 



ONClASSIflED 



NAHE: HIR2U5000 ^ ■ ■ W *»• 1 W Wf i 8 I L.- 1^ PAGE 133 

3199 Channell's organizations, particular on a broad base where 

3200 ua are talking about a number of organizations, arguable the 

3201 majority of which didn't have anything to do with his 

3202 Nicaxaguan-ralaked activities, are not related in my view. 

3203 and I would continue ny direction not to answer the 
320U question. 

3205 MR. BUCK: Is this expenditure of funds that was 

3206 sought? In other words, is the money that is paid there to 

3207 Olson money received from Mrs. Garwood for contra-related 

3208 activities--dld it come out of the same funds? 

3209 MS. nORRISOK: I don't know that that answer is 

32 10 knowable . Are you saying did she make a grant so that those 

3211 payments could be made? The answer is no. This would fit 

3212 more properly into more general overhead. 

3213 rtR. BUCK: x am wondering where the funds were 
321U received from that made the general overhead. Weren't they 
32 15 grants from your contributors, donations from your 

3216 contributors? 

3217 ns. nORRISOK: I am not sure I am following the 

3218 question as It relates to these statements. 

3219 nx. BUCK: Where did the money come from that he 

3220 used to pay his overhead? 

322 1 ns. nORRISON: Overhead Is paid from the body of 

3222 contributing money. 

3223 nR. BUCK: And the money was contributed for the 



UNCUSSIFIED 



324 



NAHE- 
322<4 
3225 
3226 
3227 
3228 
3229 
3230 
3231 
3232 
3233 
323>4 
3235 
3236 
3237 
3238 
3239 
32tt0 
32U1 
32M2 
32U3 
32t«i« 
32>45 
32K6 
32<47 
32>48 



HIR2US000 



omssra 



PAGE 13>4 



contza caustt> ior tha iraadom iightats. 

MS. MORRISON: Kot nacassazily. Each oi thasa 
organizations had iiany--nora than ona salaabla pzogzan. 

MR. FRYHAN: Wall. Mrs. Mozrison. aza you continuing 
in your position that you aza dizacting him not to answaz 
that quastion? 

ns . nORRISON: Unlass I can ba mada to saa what tha 
zalavanca o£ tha quastion is to Latin Anazican issuas, 
izaadom iightaz aid — his daalings with tha Hhita House, tha 
fact that ha didn't gat any monay fzoB Izan, somathing that 
is zalavant to this comnittaa's mission, tha dizaction will 
continua . 

HR. FRYHAK: Wall, as I say, I think tha ganazal 
issua of tha ovazhaad oi Hz. Channall's ozganizations is 
zalavant to this invastigation. Indaad, Hz. Channall has 
publicly statad that tha ovazhaad was zalativaly low. that 
tha amounts oi monay zaisad ixou his contzibutozs waza m 
compazlson with othar fund-zalslng ozganizations passad on 
to tha intandad banaiiolazias at a highaz zata, and I think 
this is an mppzopziata aza« of inquiry, to datazmina what 
was dona with substantial amounts of monay that waza zaisad 
fzom contzibutozs such as Elian Gazwood and Bazbaza 
Nawington. 

I will hava a sazias of quastions with zagazd to tha 
ovazhaad and quastions about faas to Hz. Olson oz just ona 



UHClASSlfe 



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MAKE ■ 
3249 
3250 
3251 
3252 
3253 
3254 
32SS 
3256 
3257 
3258 
3259 
3260 
3261 
3262 
3263 
326U 
3265 
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3270 
3271 
3272 
3273 



HIR2US000 



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PAGE 135 



part of this. so--I hav« a saiias oi quastions to ask. i 
don't «xpact this will b% a langthy saiias oi quastions. but 
tha issua at tha momant is, aia you diiacting hm not to 
answar this? 

MS. MORRISON: Hall, again, tha fact that Mr. 
Channall has publicly takan ctadit foE nanaging his 
oxganizations wall ot for having organizations that were 
wall-managad and that di'l. coaparativaly spaaking, to other 
similar organizations a vary good job at gatting tha 
contributors' dollars whara thay balong, doasn't naka that 
issua ralavant to this comiittaa ' s aission. 

How wall ha ran thasa organizations, it saaas to ma, 
is not ralatad to whathar or not thara ara broad policy 
questions of intarast to tha Congrass with raspact to 
foraign ralatlons and tha — tha pursuit of tha programs, 
aithar in Iran or in Hicaragua, that this coBBittea was 
formad to pursua. 

HR. BUCK: I dlsagraa with you. I think tha cantral 
quastion that wa ara looking at in this coaaittaa is tha 
privatization oi foxaign policy, and I think any 
inafficlaneias that ara involvad with tha privatization of 
fozaign policy naads to ba axaalnad, and I think that 
axaalnlng ovazhaad of an organization Is dlractly ralatad to 
that quastlon. 

MS. nOKRISON: But privatization of foraign policy 



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NAHE- 
327U 
3275 
3276 
3277 
3278 
3279 
3280 
3281 
3282 
3283 
328U 
3285 
3286 
3287 
3288 
3289 
3290 
3291 
3292 
3293 
32914 
3295 
3296 
3297 
3298 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR2U5000 IllVlal U-'^-IITiril PAGE 136 
has to do with govarnment activitias. Hi. Channell was not 
a govarnnant agancy. Ha was not using govacnmant funds, 
uhathat ha managad his organizations wall or not, although 
ua certainly contand ha did a good job at it, but it 
nevertheless seens to na it ta'K'as us far afield of whether 
or not there was privatization of foreign policy, which is a 
question of how this Administration and not private 
individuals like Mr. Channell privatized foreign policy. 

How ha ran his organizations is sinply a matter for 
another day and anothar--mandata . 

HR. rtcGOUGH' Could wa--lat ma maka a suggestion to 
diffusa this. Can wa take a brief break hare and nayba if 
counsel could talk off the record, I would like to talk 
about one aspact of this. Hayba wa can claax it up. 

MS. nOKRISON: I am always willing to talk, because 
as I said, wa are hara to cooperate. I just don't want to 
go into areas that don't produce anything for you-- 

HR. ncGOUGH: Okay, let's do that, and then let's 
talk. Okay? Take a five-minuta break. Is that acceptable? 

m. FRYHAK: Yeah, fine. 

( Racass . 1 

HR. FRYMAK- Okay. Back on the record. 

BY HR. FRYHAK: 

Hz. Channell, tha letterhead on these invoices from 



Hr . Olson is 




Do you also live 



KNMSm 



327 



3299 
3300 

330 1 
3302 
3303 
330(4 
3305 
3306 
3307 
3308 
3309 
3310 

331 1 
3312 
3313 
331<4 
3315 
3316 
3317 
3318 
3319 
3320 
3321 
3322 
3323 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HAHE HIR2U5000 I I III I I A \ \ I k I b 1 1 PAGE 137 



at that addi«ss? 

ns. nORRISOK: 0].zact him not to ansuaz. 
Irzalavant . 

i1 MR. FRYHAN: 
2 Do you. or hava you ior a pariod of tiiia aithar 
ownad an apartaant togathar with Wr . Olson or sharad an 
apartnant with Mr. Olson? 

ns . MORRISOK: Sana dlraction, sama objaction. 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 
Q During tha pariod Octobar 1986 through Fabruary 
1987, to your knowladga, was Hr . Olson aaployad iull-tina by 
a proiassional organization? 

ns . nORRISOK: Sana objaction, sana diraction. 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 
fi Mara tha sarvicas that Hr . Olson parioraad ior NEPL 
pariormad in his capability as an aaployaa of a profassional 
organization, or wara thay parforaad in an individual 
capacity? 

ns. nORRZSON: Saaa objaction and diraction. 

BY nt. FRYHAK: 
fi Hh»t was tha basis ior astablishing tha iaa sat 
iorth in tha stataaants iron Hr . Olson that hava baan 
idantiilad? 

ns . nORRISON: Saaa objaction and diraction. 

BY nR. FRYnAN: 



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332>« 
3325 
3326 
3327 
3328 
3329 
3330 
3331 
3332 
3333 
333i« 
3335 
3336 
3337 
3338 
3339 
33<40 
33K1 
33(42 
33143 
33>4U 
33145 
33M6 
331*7 
33>48 



HIR2I45000 



UNClASSra 



PAGE 138 



fi How many hours did Hr . Olson davot* to th« uotk for 
your organization for which ha was paid «U2.500? 

ns. nORRISOK: Saaa objection and direction. 
BY HR. FRYHAK: 
S Do you know how much par hour your organization was 
paying for nr . Olson's sarvlcas? 

ns. nORRISOK: Sama objection and direction. 
HR. OLIVER: nay I ask on* quastion? 
it nR. OLIVER: 
2 li you would turn to the financial analysis, paga 
2(c) oi Exhibit 2> on tha column on tha laft. about halfway 
down, thara is youx nama. and opposite that, a contribution 
of sS.OOO to tha American Conservative Trust. Below that is 
tha name Olson, and a contribution oi •5.000 to the American 
Conservative Trust. That oontzibutlon is from nr . Eric 
Olson? 

A Can I answer that? 

ns. nORXISON: Um-hum. 
THK HITNESS' Yes. 
BY m. OLIVKt> 
S 014 you ask nz. Olson to oontzlbute tS.OOO to the 
American Conservative Trust? 
A Yes. 

e Old you reimburse him for that contribution at a 
later time? 



UNClASSin^tl 



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KAHE: 

331*9 
3350 
335 1 
3352 
3353 
335tt 
3355 
3356 
3357 
3358 
3359 
3360 
3361 
3362 
3363 
336U 
3365 
3366 
3367 
3368 
3369 
3370 
3371 
3372 
3373 



HIR2t45000 



& Ko. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 139 



i Uhat was your puiposa of asking Hr . Olson to make 
that contribution? 

A I uantad to lais* son* monay for th« American 
Consarvativa Trust. 

2 Hr . Olson Mas an amployaa oi your organization at 
tha tima you askad him to maka that contribution? 
HS. nOKRISOK: Ha — 

THE HITKESS: X don't know what tima that was mada . 
ns . nORRXSOK: Iha witnass just answarad tha 
quastion. Ha said ha doasn't know at what point that 
contribution was mada> so ha can't answar tha quastion any 
mora than that. 

BY HR. OLIVER: 

fi Do you ramambax tha puxposa? Has thara a particular 
purposa for you and Mr. Olson making contributions to tha 
Amarican Consarvativa Trust? 

A Yas. 

fi Hhat was that puxposa? 

A X was hoping to xaisa aoxa aonay iox tha Amaxican 
Consaxvatlva Txust. 

fi You wara tha principal In tha Aaaxlean Consarvativa 
Txust; Is that coxxact? 

A That is right. 

fi Did you maka any othax paxsonal eontxibutlons to tha 



imussm 



330 



HAHE: 
33714 
3375 
3376 
3377 
3378 
3379 
3380 
3381 
3382 
3383 
338M 
338S 
3386 
3387 
3388 
3389 
3390 
3391 
3392 
3393 
33914 
339S 
3396 
3397 
3398 



HIR2145000 U^«U^-.JnWII ICIi PAGE lUO 
Anarican Consarvativa Trust? 
A I couldn't. 
2 Why not? 
A It is th« Unit. 
2 «S.000 is tha linit? 
A Sura . I night-- 

ns. MORRISON: That is okay. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
Q Considaxing tha fact that you zaisad tha litazally 
Millions oi dollazs from a variaty of sourcas, wh|y wara you 
contributing yoursalf to this organization? 

ns . nORRISOK: Objaetlon and diraction not to 
ansuar. Ua ara moving vary fax aiiald haza. Ha told you 
why. Ha wantad to incraasa tha coffars of tha Amarican 
Cunsarvativa Trust. Ha ara now gatting into a dabata that 
has nothing to do with tha issuas at hand. Should ua go 
back to him? 

HK. OLIVER: Ona mora quastion. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
e Has this contribution mada at a tima uhan you wara 
trying to maat a daadlina for tha Amarican Consarvativa 
Txust fox talavision ads? 

I I raally hava no idaa. As you wall know — 

ns. MORRISON: That is it. You hava no idaa. 
MR. OLIVER: Thank you. 



UNcussm 



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3399 
3(400 
3140 1 
3(402 
3U03 
3(40(4 
3(405 
3M06 
3(407 
3(408 
3(409 
3(410 
3(4T 1 
3(412 
3(413 
3mt4 
3(415 
3416 
3(417 
3(418 
3(419 
3420 
3(421 
3(422 
3M23 



HIR2USOO0 



UNCIASSIFIED 



PAGE 1U1 



BY m. rRYMAK: 
■* . a Mr. ChannaH, turning to docum«nt dated October 15. 
1986. 

A Right. 

2 Which is your idantiiication numbai 286(45 through 
286(48. and it is a lattar to Hz. Conrad iron Hofzigar and 
Bragg, or Kofzigar Comnunications , Inc. I am not sura which 
it is iron. This documant is a consulting agraamant that 
tha Channall Corporation aecaptad with Koizigar 
Comiunications . is it not? 

A That is corract. 

S Whosa idaa was it to antaz into this agraamant? 

A Hina . 

9 Has this somathlng you avar discussad with Olivar 
Horth? 

A Ko. 

e What Mas tha raason you wantad to ratain nr . 
Koizigar? 

A Z had had savatal vary good maatings with him in tha 
past whaia ha — Mho ratalna traaandoua amount oi political 
knoMladga and wondariul oontaots in Washington, imprassad ma 
graatly Hlth his political intalllganoa. and wa Mara moving 
away irom an issua that Z had baan xaally proud to Mork 
with. Kioaragua. Ha wara going to ba MorKlng Mlth SDZ in 
tha iutuza. 



IHKUSSIHED 



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NAME: 
3U2I4 
3*425 
3U26 
3427 
3M28 
3M29 
3M30 
3M31 
3U32 
3U33 
3it3« 
3«35 
31436 
31437 
3438 
3439 
3440 
3441 
3442 
3443 
3444 
3445 
3446 
3447 
3448 



HIR245000 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 142 



Ha u«r« going to branch out and do a projact on th« 
Constitution of th« Unita'd Statas. Ha uara going to ba 
working on savaral othar big issuas in tha iutura. Ua uara 
hoping to — axcusa ma--talk to hia about halping us craata 
contacts in tha Uashington coamunity with thasa nau issuas 
in mind, and that is what I told hin I wantad to do, and I 
also wantad, bacausa tha alaction was a yaar and a half away 
or whatavar. to laazn whnt X could from hia about his 
political axpartisa. 

I wantad to ba abla to ooaa to hia and say this was 
in tha papar or this is happanlng to this candidata and this 
is happaning. Lat's talk about this. Hhy is this 
happaning? I was hoping ha could glva aa soaa litaral 
political aducatlon. knd — what I was going to also do was 
hava ay staff coaa ovar froa tiaa to tiaa and hava hin run 
saainars for thaa to halp Ineraasa thair political auaranass 
and undarstanding of tha political procass in Hashington. 

fi And for this, you wara going to pay hia «20,000 a 
month? 

A That Is oorraot. 

S What was tha raason that this agraaaant was with 
Channall Corporation instaad of ona of your othar 
organizations 7 

HS. noxxX'SOX' Objaotlon. Ha has answarad why ha 
got In touch on Issuas that ac« totally unralatad to Cantral 



UNCLASSIFIED 



333 



UNCUSSIFIED 



NAME: HIRZMSOOO '^ "^ W^f l^/ Wll IkV PAGE 1U3 



3(«tt9 
3t4S0 
3451 
3U52 
3>453 
3I45U 
3US5 
3U56 
31*57 



Amftiica and Kicara9ua--and X think has dailnitivaly 
daaonstiatad that ha was angagad in this ralationship as a 
rasuit of tha fact that ha uas moving away from Hicaraguan 
issuas--! think is tha way ha chaiactatizad it. Having thus 
demonstratad to why it is not xalavant to why wa wara hara> 
I don't saa how your quastion about tha xaason fox tha 
contractual ralationship with Channall Corporation, which 
also didn't hava anything to do with Nicaragua, can ba 
ralavant to why wa ara hara. 



imcussm 



334 



3U58 
3459 
3M60 
346 1 
3462 
3(463 
3M6U 
3U65 
3U66 
3U67 
3468 
3i<69 
3U70 
3471 
3472 
3473 
3474 
347S 
3476 
3477 
3478 
3479 
3480 
3481 
3482 



"Ncuss/fe 



NAHE HIR245000 IllVl.f il \ \ IL IL II PAGE 144 



RPTS CANTOR 
DCHN PARKER 

MR. FRYMAN: A£« you dlracting hin not to answ«c? 
ns. MORRISON: Z an. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 Mr. Channal. th« National Endouaant fox th* 
Pzasacvation oi Libacty had had a numbaz of consulting 
atzanganants with othaz individuals or organizations during 
198S and 1986. had it not? 
A That is right. 

e And tha National Endotiaant for tha Prasarvation of 
Libarty was not an organization liaitad to Nicaragua, was 
it? 

A That is trua, of couzsa. 

fi I ramaabar now ay quastion. Hhat uas tha raason 
that tha consulting agraaaant with Mr . -MonTlTy*^ . with 
Channalk Corporation Instaad of ona of youz othaz 
organizations, uhioh had baan tha pattarn for othar 
consulting azrangaaants? 

ns. nORKZSONi Saa* dlraotion. Z don't think tha 
intarvaning quastion has aada it aora ralavant. If 
anything, it aay hava aada it lass ralavant. 

HK. rtXHAN' And I taka It not only tha saaa 
objaction, but tha saaa dlraotlont is that oorraot? 
MS. HORKZSGK' Yas . 



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NAME: 
31483 
3I48U 
31485 
31486 
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3U88 
3>489 
31490 
3491 
3>492 
3*493 
3<49)4 
3<495 
31496 
3U97 
3H98 
3<499 
3500 
3501 
3502 
3503 
350*4 
3505 
3506 
3507 



HIR2i'5000 



,. WSSinED 



PAGE ms 



fi li you uould turn, Mr. Channalt. to Docuaant 35276, 
it has tha printad natazial, 'Saia Oaposit Boxas,'* on the 
shaat, and It has typad oc printad by computaE. ''Suburban 
Bank,'' and it indicatas amount dua. 62103*4. do you know 
what this docuaant is? 

ns . nOKRISOK: Objaction and direction. It doasn't 
appear to hava> nor do I know it to have any relevance to 
the issues before us. 

riK. FRYHAK: I really don't care what you know or 
don't knoH. Hrs. norrlson. What I am interested in-- 

HS . nORRISON: I was Inviting you to educate se. I 
guess . 

HR. FRYHAN: I don't knoM what this involves 
either. That is ay question. 

BY HR. FRYHAK' 
fi Does this indicate that ChannaXi Corporation had an 
account at tha Suburban Bank in February of 1986? If so, 
those doouaants have not been produced pursuant to subpoena. 
Does this indioata that you had a deposit box at this bank. 
or does It Indicate you had a note at this bank? Hy 
question is what is this docuaant? 

ns. nORKZSON' Let aa respond by assuring you that 
you have all relevant doctiaents that- Mare called for by our 
subpoena. Indeed I Mould recall that you earlier Mere 



UNCLASSIFIED 



336 



UNCUSSIFIED 



KANE- HIR2U5000 ^ * " Vkf I VWI I ILU PAGE me 



3508 
3509 
3510 
351 1 
3512 
3513 
351(4 
3515 
3516 
3517 
3518 
3519 
3520 
3521 
3522 
3523 
352M 
3525 
3526 
3527 
3528 
3529 
3530 
3531 
3532 



•xplaining that nayba you got soma that waran't raXavant, 
but in any avant, you hava tha lalavant docunants, and tha 
quastion daals with an antity and a subjact nattar that hava 
no arguabla ralavanca to tha aandata hara. 

HR. ruifHAN- I don't think that is your judgmant to 
maka. Hrs. Morrison. 

BY HR. rRYHAM! 
9 Tha quastion is to you Hr . Channal^. Uhat sort o£ 
bank racord is this, and doas it ralata to an account that 
you hava at tha Suburban Bank or that tha Channal\ 
Corporation has at tha Suburban Bank? Ooas it ralata to a 
saia daposit box or doas it ralata to soaathing alsa? 

ns. nORRISON: nay I consult with »y cliant? 

HR. rRYHAK: Sura. 

[Discussion hald oii tha racord. 1 

HS. nORRISOK: Having consultad with tha viitnass, 
Hr. Fryman. Z would raally ranaM my objaotion and diraction. 

BY HR. fRYHAN: 
fi Hz. Channal|> li you would look at Daposition 
Exhibit 2 for idantliioation. and particularly Analysis II, 
which is haadad, ''Intargroup Transfars.*' you will nota 
that thara is a transiar indloatad on that schadula of 
•20 ,000 izoa NZPL to tha Channall Cozpozation on Kovambar 3, 
1986, which is tha sama data that is indleatad as tha dua 
data on tha Suburban Bank documant which Is 35276 of Exhibit 



UNCLASSIFIED 



337 



NAME- 
3533 
353U 
3S3S 
3536 
3537 
3538 
3539 
35(40 
35i»l 
35142 
35U3 
35i4>4 
35US 
35H6 
3SU7 
35(48 
35(49 
3550 
3551 
3552 
3553 
355(4 
3555 
3556 
3557 



HiRausooo 



lINClASSra 



PAGE 1147 



Is th«r« any talationshlp batuaAn that tiansfar 
from KEPL to tha Channall Cocpotation and tha Suburban Bank 
documant that I hava idantlfiad? 

ns. nORRISOK: Uhan you say dua data — 
THE UIINESS: I am lost. 

ns. nORRISOK' You hava lost. I think, both oi us. 
HR. rRYHAK= At tha top it statas, ''Data dua' 
Hovambar 3. 1986.*' which is what I an taiarzing to. 
THE UITKESS: «621 . 
BY nX. rRYHAN: 
Q Yas . It is a «20,000 transiar. 
A Oh. no. 

fi Hy quastion is. is tha transfar on Novambaz 3 oi 
•20.000 railactad on Analysis II-E of Exhibit 2 calatad in 
any way to tha bank docuaant which is Doounant 35276 in 
Exhibit 1? 

A To tha bast oi «y knowladga it is not. 

9 luzning ahaad in Exhibit 1 to tha Dacaabaz 23, 1986 

lattar to you froa Halva Ctoghan oi tha Robazt Goodman 

i 
Iganoy. which is Documant 3323/t and an anclosuta with that 

lattar. which is Documant 3323U, tha lattaz indioatas that 

an amount la dua from tha Aaazlcan Consarvatlva Trust, and 

an amount is payabla to tha National Endowmant ior tha 

Prasarvation oi Libarty. 



mmm 



338 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HAHE: HIR2U5000 V I 1 Wfcl l^* '^ »■ -— — ' ?XGi |(«8 



3558 
3559 
3560 
3561 
3562 
3563 
3S6U 
3565 
3S66 
3567 
3568 
3569 
SS70 
JS71 
3572 
3573 
3S7M 
3S75 
3576 
3577 
3578 
3579 
3580 
3581 
3583 



What do thasa itams lalata to, and what was tha 
origin of this lattar? 

A This was a mistaka. 

fi By tihom? 

A By tha lady ovaz thara. Sha had mislabalad ouz 
iilas. and this is itzalavant, and you hava to sit down with 
our accountants so thay couid tali you how Goodaan scrauad 
up in this way. Thay discovarad that thay had scrauad up; 
that thay had mislabalad our iilas, and this was wrong. 

Q So it is your undarstanding that thara was not an 
anount dua? 

I Right. 

8 From tha Amarican Consarvativa Trust? 

A Right. 

fi And an aaount that thay owad tha National 
ludoMBant . 

A Thay had alslabalad ouz f ilas . 

A Ha OMad thaa. X think, at tha and oi tha yaar two 
or thraa thousand dollazs or somathing lika that for a bill 
that wa had navaz raoalvad, but whloh urn had owad, but this 
was nuts, and thay did an analysis, I think, baginning in 
January or sonathing and zaallzad that thay waza using wzong 
fllas to do tha wozk. 

a So is it your undazstandlng that tha Goodnan Agancy 
is in agzaaaant at this point that tha statanants in this 



llNtUSSW 



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NAME: 
3583 
35814 
3585 
3586 
3587 
3588 
3589 
3590 
3591 
3592 
3593 
359U 
3595 
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3597 
3598 
3599 
3600 
3601 
3602 
3603 
36014 
3605 
3606 
3607 



HiRausooo 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 1U9 



latter aia m atior? 

A That is correct. 

2 Turning to a paga which has a data at tha top. 
January 5, 1987. and it has tha nunbar, 33117, at tha 
bottom, do you knou who prepared this page? 

A No. 

2 Do you recall having seen this page baiora? 

A No . I have no i.dea. 

2 Turning to tha next doeuaant, which begins 33137, 
and continues through 331U0, and it is headed. * 'Public 
Aiiairs Strategy fox Spitz Channel and NEPL.'' 

A Yes. 

2 Do you knoM who draitad this docunent? 

A I do. 

2 Who was that? 

A Rich Niller and his staii. 

2 Do you know who assisted him in this? 

A No. I just know that he told tie that he and the 

staff put this together. 

U 
2 It says in the third and iozth lines that this was 

prepared, ''with consultation izom several of your senior 

oonsultants. * ' Do you know who those senior consultants 

were? 

A Consultants were oonsultants. I don't have a 

hierarchy of consultants. 



uNtussire 



340 



NAME: 
3608 
3609 
36 10 
36 1 1 
3612 
36 13 
36m 
3615 
3616 
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3620 
3621 
3622 
3623 
36214 
3625 
3626 
3627 
3628 
3629 
3630 
3631 
3632 



UNCUSSIHED 



HIR2(45000 IllVlal U.l.linril page ISO 

fi But I naan do you know who th« consultants uara 
that ha — 

A I just assun*--! said that ha and tha staii had put 
this togathar. and I think ha probably--it says Kuy^andall 
haza . 

2 Is this your handwriting on thasa pagas? 

A Tha top> I'm suza is. I assuma tha zast of it. 

fi What is tha handwziting on tha iirst paga? ''This 
is a political stzuggla.'* and undar that? 

A ''Azny waapons stratagy action.'* Whan thay wara 
talking to na , thay said, ''You naad to think of this in 
thasa militazy tazms.*' and I wrota that down. 

Q And on tha last paga by tha typawzittan wozd--I'ii 
sozzy. Mot tha last paga, but paga Kumbar 33139--by tha 
typawzittan word, ''Antagonists,'' what is that wozd? 

A I think it is mora quastion nazk abova antagonists. 

fi And down by ' 'untaasonabla, ' ' what is that wozd? 

A ''Laaky,'' but that's not it. 

fi Is that L-E-H-A-Y? 

A Z oan't tall by ay — what would that ba? 

fi Mould it ba a nana indicating Lahay? 

A Lahay? That doasn't zing a ball with na. 

fi You don't zacall at this point. 

A No. It is ay writing, though. 

fi Tuznlng In Exhibit 1 to tha doouaant datad Januazy 



UNClASSra 



341 



3633 
363U 
3635 
3636 
3637 
3638 
3639 
36140 
36m 
36>42 
36143 
36UI4 
36US 
36U6 
36147 
36M8 
36149 
3650 
3651 
3652 
3653 
3654 
3655 
3656 
3657 



HIRaMSOOO 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 151 



13, 1987, which bagins with Muiib*r 330914, and goas at laast 
through 33096, do you Know who pcapaiad this documont? 

A I don't know. I assum* it was oui oifica, our 
accountants . 

2 Hava you saan this baiora? 

A Mo . 

S Is this soaathing, than, you aia not familiar with. 
I taka it? 

A Right. 

2 Do you racall ra^uasting somathing oi this sort 
baiora? 

A Yas. This was part oi tha procass oi gatting 
Goodman's figuras corract. 

a Was this promptad by tha aarliar lattar? 

A Yas. 

2 From Goodman? 

A Yas . 

2 That wa hava lookad at? 

A Yas. Ha angagad working with tham. I think, for 
six waaks or two months, to ilgura out what in haavan's nam* 
4hay had dona. Thay andad up having not dona anything wrong. 
They just misiabalad ail oi our accounts. 

8 And would you turn to tha dooumant datad January 
15, 1987, which is a lattar to you from Collaan Vickars. and 
it is Numbar 60792. Is that anothar lattar in this sarias 



yNcmssifiEB 



342 



NAME: 
3658 
3659 
3660 
3661 
3662 
3663 
366M 
3665 
3666 
3667 
3668 
3669 
3670 
3671 
3672 
3673 
36714 
3675 
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3677 
3678 
3679 
3680 
3681 
3682 



sHmsm 



HIR2>45000 * PAGE 152 

of Axchangss? 

A It would hav| 

fi And th* ultimata lasult of thasa axchangas you hava 
tastiiiad Is that tha Goodnan Agancy concludad that thaia 
had not baan any aicoz in tha billings? 

A That's tight. Thay had }ust mislabalad out filas, 
and workad with tha wzong figuzas. with tha wzong fila foe 
agas bafoza wa discovazad it. 

2 Tuzning to tha stataaant datad rabruazy 2> 1987, 
izom Richazd R. Hillaz to you, which is Docuaant 60855, 
thaza iS a zaiazanca to Cantzal Aaazlcan Fzaadon Pzogzaa, 
Roman 2 zasaazch foz •12,000. What was that? 

A Ha was going to halp us ganazata a naw pzogzam to 
suppozt tha naw aid bill aifozt. 

a This was an aiiozt in 1987 that you waza planning? 

A Baginning in 1987. 

fi Tuzning to Docuaant 26951 thzough 20953, which aza 
notas baginning on tha flzst paga, " UMO talking points-- 
and than tha sacond paga, ''Gzaan bziafing,'' hava you saan 
thasa doouaants baioza? 

A This phzasa is vary faailiar, • 'talking points.'' 

fi Do you know who prapazad thasa docuaants? 

A I think Rich nillar's oiiloa did. 

fi And turning to tha saoond paga, to tha Gzaan 
bziafing. do you know what that was praparad for? 



yNClASSIFIED 



343 



MANE: 
3683 
368U 
3685 
3686 
3687 
3688 
3689 
3690 
3691 
3692 
3693 
369U 
3695 
3696 
3697 
3698 
3699 
3700 
3701 
3702 
3703 
3704 
3705 
3706 
3707 



HIR2US000 



UNCUSSIRED 



PAGE 153 



A That was also ciaatad by Rich tlillftz's office. No. 
unlass this is sonathing for Colonal Kocth to say. It is an 
outlina of uhat has happanad sine* tha vota. 

e How do you know that Millar's offica praparad this? 

A Bacausa this typa/ for soma raason, I can tell was 
his typa> and than soaa of tha phrasas that I have sea^^ are 
soma of his phrasas. That may not ba conclusive, but x 
think that is it. 

S Turning to tha next document, which is 27087, a 
latter on International Business Communications stationary 
to Dan from Steve, do you know what that letter concerns? 

A This Steve is--I can't remember his last name. He 
works for Rich Hiller as a political specialists, and 
sometime last year he put together a list of the open seats 
in the House. 

e Is that Stave Schwartz? 

A Schwartz, that is his nam*. 

2 Do you know why he was sending a list of open seats 
in the House to Dan? 

A He were putting togethez foz Sentinel a whole 
political packet — who was safe, what open seats were 
oeouzzlng. who was undeolded, all that type of thing, for 
me. 

fi At what time were you doing this work? 

A This would have been pzobably late spring when we 



«HWS» 



344 



yNClASSIRED 



MAM: HIR2U5000 V =•■ . -.^ — - - — pj^j ,s^ 



3708 
3709 
3710 
371 1 
37 12 
3713 
371U 
3715 
3716 
3717 
3718 
3719 
3720 
3721 
3722 
3723 
372<( 
3725 
3726 
3727 
3728 
3729 
3730 
3731 
3732 



b«gan to look at what th* lacas w*ra going to ba lika. 

2 Lata spring of 1986. 

k Yas. Juna or July, somathing lika that. You won't 
do sonathing lika this vary aarly. bacausa thara is a lot of 
tma to go bafora alactions raally gat going, and thara 
might ba nany changas. 

Q Mas this providad to you aitai tha Micaraguan aid 
vota? 

A Oh, it would hava baan latar than that, daiinitaly. 
It is too aarly in tha yaax. 

fi Turning to Ooetxaant 36089. which follows tha 
Cantral Anarican fraadoB Program aaao that wa hava alraady 
dlscussad — 

A Right. 

fi Do you racogniza that doeuaant? 

A This is part of a draft, a daseription of what ua 
do. 

fi Hho praparad this draft? 

A I hava no Idaa. 

a Has It dona at your raquast? 

A Z don't think so. Soaa of tha aspaets of this ara 
vazy Inaoourata. 

fi Hhat la tha appEoxlaata data of this? Has this in 
1985? 

A This would hava baan only 1985. 



wm\m 



345 



HAHE: 
3733 
37314 
373S 
3736 
3737 
3738 
3739 
37<40 
37U1 
37M2 
37113 
37Mt| 
37US 
37U6 
37t»7 
37118 
37U9 
37S0 
3751 
3752 
3753 
375H 
3755 
3756 
3757 



HIR2I4S000 



ICIASSIFIED 



PAGE 155 



S Has this shaat evaE disttibutsd to anyone? 

A I don't think so. It is a dcscxiption ioi people 
oi what the ACT did, but I have no idea. 

S Do you cecall seeing this before? 

A No. 

a Turning to the page headed, ''Nicaragua effort 
targeted congressional representatives,'* which is page 
8163^. Do you recall seeing these pages before? 

A No. 

a Do you KnoM who prepared these pages? 

A I don't. This is to ay Knowledge somebody else's 
activities. 

fi nr . Channel^ looking again at KKhibit 2, which are 
the accounting schedules prepared froa your aaterials by 
accountants fox the House and the Senate coamittees, on the 
first page, which is Analysis 2-A. There is a category 
called, ''project expenditures,'* and under that there is a 
group identified as. ''other,*' which has expenditures 
totaling •238.693. 

Do you know what is included in that group of other 
expenditux*s7 

ns. nOKKISON: Ue understand that he didn't prepare 
this. 

tit. rkYHAN' I aa asking if he — 
THI HZTNESS: Z have no idea. 



W 



m 



Wimm 



346 



UNCIASSIRED 



NAHI: HIR2I4S000 V • * Wte» 1*^^^ • ■ ■— ^ page 156 



3758 
3759 
3760 
376 1 
3762 
3763 
3764 
3765 
3766 
3767 
3768 
3769 
3770 
3771 
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3773 
377<« 
3775 
3776 
3777 
3778 
3779 
3780 
3781 
3782 



m. FRYMAN: li h* knows. 

TH2 WITNESS: No. It could b* a Billion diifctant 
things . 

BY HR. FRYMAN: 

fi th« naxt heading is ' 'Consulting and Public 
Ralations.*' and undac that thara is> again, an othaz 
catagozy, which totals *7i4>366, and that is consulting and 
public ralations in 1985 othaz than PHI and Dan Conzad. 
Do you know what that zalatas to? 

A I an sozzy> I don't. I just don't know how thay 
hava dona this. 

fi And on this paga I hava ona othaz quastion. At tha 
bottom oi tha paga Jn tha haading, ''ACT Stata Elaotion 
Fund." thaza is an "othaz." total oi «155,530. Do you 
know what that gzoup oi axpandituzas inoludas? 

A No. 

fi Tuzning to tha sacond paga. Analysis II-B, thaza is 
an Indication oi a pzojaot axpandltuza to Blackwall. Do you 
know what that is? 

A Yas. that is tha nama oi a coapany who did soma 
wozk ioz us on — I iozgat whathaz it was studias oz polls 
pzapazlng ioz tha constitution pzojaot. 

fi That had nothing to do with tha Nioazagua Pzogzaa? 

A No. 

fi Thaza is also an antzy thaza by tha naaa, Blackaoza 



iiHtufisro 



347 



Hkni 

3783 
3784 
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3787 
3788 
3789 
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3793 
379U 
3795 
3796 
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3798 
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380 1 
3802 
3803 
380i« 
3805 
3806 
3807 



HIR214S000 



UNCLASSIRED 



PAGE 157 



and Kiawlon. Do you know what that £*f«rs to? 

A Y«s . Th*y at* advattising and polling and suivay 
agancy in Kaw Yotk, and wa wotkad with than on--it had 
nothing to do with Hicacagua. It was in tha suniiat and fall 
of 1986, and wa wo£kad--wa had soaa ads dona foe tha tax 
dabata thay had hata, which didn't go. And than wa did 
sonathing alsa for thaa on tha constitution. 

I aa not su£a--that didn't go aithaz bacausa wa 
didn't gat to do our program this yaar, but wa had staztad 
aithaz in tha lata suaaar or tha fall, Blackaora and 
Kiawlon. 

fi Mara thay involvad in tha ads for tha 1986 
congrassional caapalgns? 

A Thay did. I think, an ad. ona ad. 

e Do you know uhioh campaign? 

A I don't. 

fi Hhat Is your undarstanding of tha corract spalling 
of tha naaa of that ooapany? 

A That this Is wronj. 

S Hhat is oorraot? 

I Z aa not suza I can tall you that. It is Blakaaora, 
and I thlnJc It is Kilo. This just isn't corract. 

ft Aza thay basad in Xaw YqzK? 

A Yas. thay aza . 

fi Tuznlngto tha saoond paga oi Analysis ZZ-B, thaza 



BHtUSSW 



348 



HAHE: 
3808 
3809 
38 10 
381 1 
3812 
3813 
38114 
3815 
3816 
3817 
3818 
3819 
3820 
3821 
3822 
3823 
38214 
3825 
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3827 
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3831 
3832 



HIR2t45000 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE 158 



is an «ntry on tha third lina for. ' ' paxiormanca 
consulting.'' Do you know what that antry lalatas to? 

A Axa wa togathar haxa? All right. Ko. I don't knou 
why thay call it that. That 'might ba a firm that Dan Conrad 
was using for somathing or othax. I don't knou. 

S that paga oi Analysis XI-B indicatas that in 1986 
you racaivad consulting faas from tha vaxious companias 
totaling «52>900. Is that consistant with your xacollaction 
of consulting faas that you xatainad? 

A That is salary. 

fi Did you xacalva consulting faas in addition to 
salaxy? 

A Ko, just salaxy. 

S What is youz zaoollactlon of tha total incoma that 
you xacaivad from KZPL and your othar organizations in 1986. 

A I don't know axactly what it was. 

e Was it ovaz «200,000? 

A I don't think so. All togathar I don't think so. 

e Ovaz «175,000? 

A I thought it was Ilka 155 oz 165. 

a Tuzn to tha last paga, which is Analysis Il-n. 
That Is an analysis of NEPL's salazlas. and it indicatas 
gzoss wagas to you of 4161,022. 

A That would ba eozxaot. 

e Is that consistant? 



«msw 



349 



UNCUSSIFIED 



HXnt HIR2U5000 Ulltlkfflwwll IbW PAGE 159 



3833 
383U 
3835 
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38U0 
38U1 
38>42 
38143 
38t«i4 
38U5 
38K6 
38«*7 
38148 
38M9 
3850 
3851 
3852 
3853 
385U 
3855 
3856 
3857 



A Clostt to correct, yas. 

2 But is it your r«collaetion that you did not 
cacaiv* consulting i»as in addition to that salary? 

A That uould b« corract. I pay taxas on salary. 

2 What is Ran Filns? 

A Thay ara a littla--it is lika a tiny Bob Goodwin 
firm in Maryland. 

fi Analysis XI-B indlcatas that thay uara paid 429.000 
by ACT Fadaral Elactlon Fund in 1986. Do you know what that 
was ior? 

A That was ior our Haiyland cosaarcial indapendant 
axpanditura coaaarcial. 

Q What was that? 

A That was tha indapandant axpanditura oomsarcial on 
tha Maryland Sanata raca. 

fi That was tha Barnas caapaign comnarcial? 

A Ko . Thara was navar a Barnas canpaign comitarcial . 
Thara wara aany paopla running ior Sanata in tha primary in 
1986 in Hazyland. Ua ran an Indapandant ad talking about 
Linda Chavax and Sanator HoCulsKy. 

fi Has that paid to Ram Films ior production costs ior 
tha iila? 

k Oh. X am sura that would hava baan also ior 
distribution. 

fi And ioz purchasing air tlma? 



winssw 



350 



KAHE: 
3858 
3859 
3860 

386 1 
3862 
3863 
386U 
3865 
3866 
3867 
3868 
3869 
3870 

387 1 
3872 
3873 
387K 
3875 
3876 
3877 
3878 
3879 
3880 
3881 
3882 



HIR2(45000 



Yas 



yNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 160 



MR. OLIVER: Hay I ask a quastion talating to 
that? 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 You tan this indapandant axpandituza on bahalf of 
Linda Chavaz: is that cozzact? 

ns . MORRISOK: I an going to objact and dizact him 
not to answaz. Ua , again, aza in politics, candidatas. and 
faz aiiald fzoa Nicazagua and Cantzal Amazica. 
BY HR. FRYHAK: 

S In tha 1986 public aducation and lobbying campaign 
on bahali oi tha laglslation pzoviding aid to tha Kicazaguan 
zasistanca. aza you awaza oi any assistanca that war 
pzovidad by anployaas oi tha Stata Oapaztmant to this 
lobbying aiiozt? 

A Hall, Elliott Abzans mat with ma twica . I assuma 
you would assuma ha was an amployaa oi tha Stata Dapaztmant. 
And wa had a briaiing in nay oi 1985. That was 1985. 

fi I am not talking about tha maatings with Hz. 
Abzams, which I am awaza oi . I am zaiazzing to continuing 
pazticlpatlon oi Stata Dapaztmant zapzasantativas in 
maatings with zaspact to tazgating congzassman oz planning 
stzatagy and tha lobbying campaign. 

A I didn't pazticipata in any oi that ii it axistad. 

fi And you aza not awaza oi any Stata Dapartmant 



UNCLASSIFIED 



351 



3883 
SSSM 
3S85 
3886 
3887 
3888 
3889 
3890 
389 1 
3892 
3893 
389U 
3895 
3896 
3897 
3898 
3899 
3900 
3901 
3902 
3903 
3904 
3905 
3906 
3907 



HIR245000 



yNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 161 



participation. 

A No, I am not. 

2 Ara you auara oi any assistanca or participation by 
Colonal North in tha talavision advartisanants prapared by 
tha Goodman agancy? 

A Bob Goodman did tall ica that Colonal North's office 
got him soma typa of HIND halicoptars. I think they uere 
filmad in Europa somauhara. 

e And is that it? 

A That is all X know. Ha hava an ad whara it shows 
HIND halicoptars in thraa diiiarant piacas oi film. I don't 
know which ona tha Pantagon sold or whatavar. 

S Hhat was your involvamant with raspact to a program 
in Jamaica on bahali of tha Intarnational Youth Araa or 
Intarnational Youth Commission? 

A I was invltad to go to a lunchaon hald, I think, in 
Gaorgatown City Club Tarraca by tha sponsor of this thing 
you ara talking about, and I want, and thara wara about 30 
or UO paopla thara from various businassas and 
avarythlng — and Prima Hinistar Ciaga was thara and mada a 
spaaeh and askad all of us if wa would halp fund this . And 
wa didn't. 

ft Has that your only Involvamant? 

A Yas. 

Q Do you hava any kncwiadga of any funnaling of 



mmvB 



352 



NAHE: 
3908 
3909 
3910 
391 1 
3912 
3913 
39114 
3915 
3916 
3917 
3918 
3919 
3920 
3921 
3922 



HIX2>45000 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 162 



raonias through th« int«rnational youth araa organization? 
A Ho . Wtt vara going to try to halp than and raisa 
money or grant than nonay oursalvas, but thay avidantly had, 
as I racall thay had this lunch lika two waaks baiora tha 
avant, and by tha tina thay got back to us. tha avent was 
ovar . 

Thay navar gava us any natarial, and wa said wa 
uantad to halp you, but It is too lata. Thank you vary 
nuch. Wa ara sorry you uara so slow in gatting us to halp 
you. 

S nr . ChannalV thara war* savaral araas oi 
quastioning that I bagan today whara your counsal diractad 
you not to answar. and I an rasarving tha Housa Connittaa's 
rights with raspact to thosa araas o£ quastions. Othar than 
that, I hava no furthar quastions at this tina. 



mu^ssro 



353 



naue ^ 

3923 
39214 
3925 
3926 
3927 
3928 
3929 
3930 
3931 
3932 
3933 
393U 
393S 
3936 
3937 
3938 
3939 
39140 
39m 
39142 
39M3 
39t4U 
39I4S 
39146 
39147 



HIR245000 



RPTS HAZUR 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 163 



DCHN DOHOCK 
5 00 p.m. 

BY MR. HcGOUGH: 

2 nz . Channall, I uant to fill in a i»u blanks in tha 
back--in youz background, ii I could. You wsza discharged 
from th* Amy whan? 

A In 1973. 

2 Has that an Honotabla Dischatga? 

A Oh. yas. I racaivad an Amy Conmandation Hadal when 
I laft. 

S ny notas show that you told us about youz first fund- 
r'>ising axpazianca with KCPAC. And that Hr . Dolan askad you 
to tzy your hand at it. Haza you surpzisad by youz initial 
succass at that afiozt? 

A Vazy much so. 

e Hhy was that? 

A I had navaz dona it baiora . I didn't Know it could 
ba dona. 

2 You also indicatad that you waza — or askad by Hz. 
Dolan to sazva as KCPAC's National rinanca Chaiznan. Uera 
you tha first parson to sazva in that rola? 

A Yas. I was — tha only ona . 

8 You dacidad to focus on — aftaz you laft KCPAC, on 
foraign policy issuas. and you said that thosa wara of 



uNcussra 



354 



MAHE 
39148 
3949 
3950 
3951 
3952 
3953 
39SU 
3955 
3956 
3957 
3958 
3959 
3960 
396 t 
3962 
3963 
396>4 
3965 
3966 
3967 
3968 
3969 
3970 
3971 
3972 



HIR2U5000 



■ILASSIFIEO 



PAGE 164 



particular interast to you in light o£ your background. X 
believa you also indicatad that Hr . Dolan and othar^-ua could 
call them Washington insidais or Washington paople had some 
skepticisn over anyone's ability to raise money on those 
kinds of issues. Is that fair to say? 

A That is absolutely correct. 

2 Why did you feel that you could be successful on 
those issues? 

A Well, as you have just stated, I was successful at 
raising money, and I uas aware that one of the major reasons 
why issues are lost in this country is because there is very 
little money to promote then. Everything takes money to 
educate the American people. 

The--every national firm in the country that promotes 
a product nationwide normally spends in excess of «70 
million a year to get the American people to pick that 
product up at a local Safeway store for the first time, and 
titey normally take a year to teach people how to move from 
one detergent to another. 

It 1> a very eMpenslve proposition. and--not being 
expansive — when I first began to study foreign policy issues. 
I Incidentally realized that the values and the goals and 
the projects In this city were oi Incredible Importance to 
the American people, but nobody had any money — resources. We 
had all these political thinkers at the top. and nobody down 



UNCLASSIFIED 



355 



NAHE: 
3973 
39714 
3975 
3976 
3977 
3978 
3979 
3980 
3981 
3982 
3983 
39814 
3985 
3986 
3987 
3988 
3989 
3990 
3991 
3992 
3993 
39911 
3995 
3996 
3997 



HIR2'45000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 165 



below trying to czeata tha zasourcAS to aducata tha American 
paopla about thasa projects. 

2 Did you initially start out focusing on European 
issues ? 

A Yes. 

fi And uhat--could you explain a little on European 
issues ? 

A Yes. As you know the President's rearnanent 
progran to defend this country was a big one. The creation 
of SDI was a very important one. Tha defense budget in 
general was a vary important one. Those were — that is where 
I was generally. 

8 What efforts, if any, did you pursue in those areas? 

A As you know, I worked for a while with Danny Graham 
as a consultant to raise money prior to the beginning of SDI 
while he was just dealing with High Frontier, and then later 
when he^ working with SOI. 

fi Here there any problems encountered in the 
organization and scheduling of the Nlcaraguan refugee dinner 
or--yes, Mlcaragua refugee dinner? 

A Any — 

2 Here there any problems encountered in the 
organization or scheduling of the KRF dinner? 

A Well, yes. As you know, it was postponed once by 
the White House. We had Invited many people to Washington 



UNCLASSIFIED 



356 



HAME 
3998 
3999 

MOOO 
UOO 1 
4002 
UOOS 
■40014 
•4005 
14006 
4007 
4008 
4009 
4010 
401 1 
4012 
4013 
40 14 
40 IS 
4016 
4017 
4018 
4019 
4020 
4021 
4022 



HIR245000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 166 



who wars going to pay saveral thousand dollars to coma. 
Thay had said thay would bring thair chacKs with them. The 
naxt thing I was told was that tha dinnar was to ba 
cancallad. And in fact, it wasn't going to ba laschaduled 
at that tima . 

I had to call all thasa paopla and say just that. 
Savaial of tha paopla involvad said, wall. I guass ua won't 
coma, and don't axpact a chack from us for this affort. Tha 
dinnar was than raschadulad and many of tha paopla that I 
had talkad to said thay wara now going to ba doing othar 
things, and thay wishad ma wall and good-bya. 

Thara was a constant civil war batwaan tha paopla 
who wara managing this dinnar and part of tha hiatus, tha 
craation of tha hiatus was tha fact that tha paopla who uera 
originally managing it wara firad by tha Kicaraguan Refugee 
Fund Organization, and than thara was a two or thraa-week 
period from what I ramambarad whan tha Kicaraguan Refugee 
Fund ranagotiatad tha contract with this group, and than 
eventually rehired tha vary same group to do exactly what 
thay wara doing, and this is a time whan Oan Conrad was 
voluntaazlng down there. 

Thay had told him that thay were going to pay him. 
and than thay decided thay wouldn't even do that. I wasn't 
involved in tha management. I just heard the sound and the 
fury and thunder every day. 



UNCUSSIHED 



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NAME: 

uoza 
U0214 
uozs 

14026 
U027 
14028 
4029 
1030 
U031 
14032 
(4033 

1403>4 

U035 
14036 
4037 
14038 
(4039 
(40(40 
(40(41 
(40U2 
40(43 
40i«(4 
(40(45 
(40(46 
(401»7 



HIR2145000 



yNCussra 



PAGE 167 



2 Prasidant Reagan ultimataly addtassad tha meeting at 
that meating. did ha not? 

A Ha did. 

2 And ha spoka about his commitmant to the Hicaraguan 
issue 7 

A Tha vota> as you know, had just taken place, and the 
President had lost, and ha cama to that dinner and said, ue 
will not lose this issue. Ua axa going to do so and so and 
so and so and so and so to try to regain tha vote. 

2 Was tha President's conmitment to tha Nicaraguan 
issue one oi tha factors that motivated you to raise money 
for that issue? 

A Thi speech by the President that night, as I have 
said to several people, sat ma on fir*. I characterized it 
as lightning and dry timber. It was probably one of the 
finest speeches for freedom ha has ever made, and I was 
electrified by that speech, and whan I want out of there, I 
decided this was an issue of paramount importance to the 
President and ha was so passionataly committed to it that I 
felt mora convinced than I aver had that I could raise 
support for tha freedom fighters. 

fi Has that bacausa--or at least in part because many of 
your contxlbutors were also passionately devoted to the 
issues to which Prasidant Raagan was passionately — 

A Absolutely, and thay ware also passionately devoted 



uNtussra 



358 



wussra 



NAME: HIR2LI5000 lJ|lUl.f^UUIV 1^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ 

UOUSl to Piesid«nt Rsagan. Most had b««n suppoitmg hin sinca ha 

'40U9 was Govarnor. evan though thay didn't liva in Caliiotnia. 
14050 S I nissad a portion of tha deposition yastatday 

UOSl aftarnoon. I apologiza for that, but uould--I would lika if 

U052 you would for ma, and it may ba rapatitious, to outlina tha 

•4053 prasantation Colonal North would giva at tha Mhita Housa I 

UOSU briafings on tha Nicaraguan issuas. ' 

((055 You bring your contributors in, thara would ba a 

14056 numbar of spaachas, and than Colonal Korth would giva an 

14057 ovarviaw of tha Nicaraguan situation. Could you run through 
U058 tha ganaral flow of that prasantation for us? 

14059 A Did you hava an opportunity to saa tha haarings? 

14060 fi Yas, I saw a significant portion of it. 

(4061 A I didn't yat. but I haard that 0ha shouad tha slide 

U062 show, sort of. Ha hald it up and talkad . Did you haar 

14063 that? 

i406>4 e Yas, I haaxd that portion. 

U065 A Okay, I didn't. I just haard about it. That was 

(4066 his prasantation to us. 

14067 fi To us — wall, but — 

H068 A That was tha daal. 

(4069 fi Slnca you didn't know what ha said — and wa only hava 

4070 his word as to what ha said whan ha hald--can you giva us an 

1(07 1 idaa of how you racall his spaach procaadlng? 

4072 A Sura. Ha would bagln by talking about tha historic 



llEIASSW 



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NAME- 
4073 
4074 
4075 
4076 
4077 
4078 
4079 
4080 
4081 
4082 
4083 
4084 
4085 
4086 
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4089 
4090 
4091 
4092 
4093 
4094 
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HIR24S000 



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PAGE 169 



background of the coming to pouar of th« Sandinistas. He 
uould move on to the fact that the--that there was a 
revolution where multiple parties had helped overthrow the 
Soraoza dictatorship. 

He would then say that a true democracy was in the 
process of being born, that the Sandinistas perpetuated a 
coup d'etat and seized the government from the pluralistic 
group of parties that weze--that really had participated in 
the creation of the victory. 

He then would talk about the background of the junta 
leaders, the fact that they had education in Moscow, the 
fact that they had education in Cuba, the fact that some 
were terrorists. 

He then talked about the beginning support of 
communist regimes in the world for the growth of communism 
and terrorism in Nicaragua. He would show weapon systems 
brought from Europe. He talked about Libya, East Germany 
and Yugoslavia and Russia and Cuba bringing in 
organizational experts to organize a stylistic form of 
internal repression for the Sandinista regime. 

He talked about the nature of the Sandinista 
conscript. He showed--all the time, of course, showing 
slides that support all of this. He then would talk about 
the advanced military technology coming into Klcaragua. He 
would talk about Libyan terrorism that the Nicazaguan 



NCUSSIRED 



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NAHE ■■ 
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4 100 
14101 

>4 102 
4 103 
4 104 
4105 
4106 
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4112 
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4114 
4115 
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41 18 
4119 
4120 
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PAGE 170 



Sandinistas had paiticipated in. 

Ha shouad--talKad about waapons going to other Latin 
Ameiican tariotist organizations originating in Nicaragua. 
Talked about the support of the Sandinista regime ior the M- 
14 terrorist novenant, which destroyad--killed all of the 
Colombian Supreme Court. 

He then would talk about the internal repression 
created by such a tarxorist regime, the destruction oi the 
Jewish population living in Hanagua. the creation oi a 
constant and growing stream oi reiugees> and he would make 
the comment that under this terrible government by Somoza, 
they were ior generations--thera were never refugees as were 
generated by this splendid, humanistic reiorm regime oi the 
Sandinistas in three years, which was true. 

He talked about where the reiugees were coming from, 
the fact that there were hundreds oi thousands--ha again 
showed pictures oi that. Ha than would talk about the 
creation oi the iraadom iightar iorcas, the leaders 
involved, what these pcopla ware like, why they were 
motivated to do this, why thay ware going out to iaca the 
Sandinistas ior ireadom, the tremendous courage that these 
people had, and iighting a powariul militaristic communist 
regime, and how wa as Americans had an obligation to support 
these people iighting for ireedom to recapture the 
revolution that was stolen irom them by this coup d'etat of 



UNCmSSIFIED 



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NAME 

4123 
U 124 
4 125 
4 126 
4 127 
4 128 
4 129 
4130 
4 131 
4132 
4133 
4134 
4135 
4136 
4137 
4 138 
4 139 
4140 
4141 
4142 
4143 
4144 
4145 
4146 
4147 



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PAGE 171 



these terrorist coraraunists who had taken power in Managua. 

2 During this period, or during this presentation, you 
mentioned that he would show slides? 

A Yes. 

2 What were the sources of those slides, if you know? 
What was the source of those slides, if you know? 

A X know that Rich Miller, for our presentation, had 
soite, but I an not sure whether--! don't know where Rich 
niller got his, and I don't know where Ollie got his. 

2 Did HEPL or any of your organizations provide any of 
the slides for the-- 

A No. 

2 --progran? The notes I saw from yesterday's testimony 
indicated that in the dinner meeting with Mr. Hunt m 
Dallas, one of the items you recalled being mentioned by 
Colonel North in the course of his discussion with Mr. Hunt 
were grenade launchers. Am I summarizing the notes 
accurately and youz testimony accurately? 

A Yes. 

fi Do you remember if they were referred to as n-79 
grenade launchers? 

A I had said that Is what Z thought, but I am not an 
expert in the numbers. I don't pretend to know. 

Q But that does sound familiar? 

A That is familiar. I am worried about it, because it 



irnmim 



362 



NAME: 
UIUS 
4149 
4150 
UISI 
U152 
m53 

ms« 

U1S5 
U156 
1*157 
U1S8 
■4159 
4160 
>4161 
<4162 
■4163 
141614 
<4165 
14166 
4167 
■4168 
>4169 
4170 
4171 
4172 



HIR245000 



is familiar. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 172 



e Ail right. Was th«r« any mantion oi C-4 explosivas? 

A I don't raiBttmbar that. 

2 Finally, and again, this may b« repetitious-- 
ns. nORRISOH: nay I hava a sacond? 
[Discussion ofi tha racord.] 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q This again may ba rapatltious from yastarday, but 
forgiva ma. It is my last <iuastion, or parhaps sarias of 
quastions . 

Mara you awara. or uara you avar told by rir . nillar 
that at soma point ha and Hr . Gomaz bagan to taka 10 parcant 
of contributions baing passad through thair Cayman Islands 
companias as a faa for tha sarvlca of passing thosa 
contributions along to tha contra organizations or to Lake 
Rasourcas ? 

» Yas. ha told ma that. 

S And Hhan did ha tall you? 

A It was lata last yaar. 

e Aitar public dlsolosura of tha Iran Initiative? 

A Yaa> I think praolsaly Mhan you ara talking about, 
that Is aftar tha Iran stuff, but I think bafora wa got 
daaply Involved. 

fi And how did ha explain that to you? 

A Just exactly tha uay you did. Ha was just vary 



UNCLASSIFIED 



363 



NAME ■ 
4173 
41714 
4 175 
4176 
4177 
4178 
4179 
4180 

msi 

4182 
4183 
4184 
4185 
4186 
4187 
4188 
4189 
4190 
4191 
4192 
4193 
4194 
4195 
4 196 
4197 



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PAGE 173 



honest about it, and ha said, I am not sura you know this, 

but ua hava ta)<an--you said 10 percant. I am not sura 

uhethcr it was 10 parcent oi not. That nay hava baan the 

f igura . 

o~ 
e So, you did not know it tha tima it was going on, 

only ratrospactivaly ; is that right? 

A That is right, bafora his raport cama out to us, he 

told ma that. 

2 Did you--what uas your response to him at tha time 

that you learned of that? 

A I uas a little upset at that, because I--you know, he 

had done an incredible, good job ior us in almost every 

aspect of his work, and I thought we paid him pretty much 

what he felt he needed for his business, and I--sort of felt 

a little embarrassed that he didn't have the courage to 

share with me earlier, and that he felt it was necessary to 

do that. If you understood what I am — saying-- 

2 Let me just ask Tom one question, and than you 

maybe-- 

( Discussion off the record.] 

HK. HcGOUGH: That is all I have. 

THE UITHZSS: Off the record. 

[Discussion off the record.] 

BY nil. OLIVER: 

2 Mr. Channell. you Indicated in relation to the 



UNCUSSIFIED 



364 



MAKE: 
U198 
4199 
4200 
U20 1 
U202 
4203 
4204 
4205 
4206 
4207 
420S 
4209 
4210 
421 1 
42 12 
4213 
42 14 
4215 
4216 
42 17 
4218 
4219 
4220 
4221 
4222 



UNCUkSSinED 



HIR245000 IIIWI.I U.A.Mrir II PAGE 174 
letter from Stave Schwartz to Dan Conrad--you indicated that 
this had to do with Sentinel on the record a little while 
ago. Why would Sentinel be interested in the open seats in 
1936 after the vote had already been taken? It is my 
understanding the Sentinel was a lobbying operation. 

A X wasn't aware that I said Sentinel. You would be 
correct in correcting me. 

S If it was not Sentinel, what would it have been? 

A Either ACT, ATAC . No, it wouldn't have been 
Sentinel. Ue wouldn't have asked for it-T 

2 You also indicated in relation to the strategy paper 
that was prepared for you by Rich Miller related to the 
charges and allegations that appeared in the Lowell Sun, 
that the notes that you had made on that piece of paper 
indicated that you should think of this as a military 
strategy in dealing with these allegations; is that correct? 

A That is right. 

e And you said that when they were talking to you, 
they indicated you should think of it in that way? 

A Yes. 

e Who was they thatAweze talking to you? 

A Rich Millar and Dan Kuykendall were there. 

fi They were-- 

A Presented the paper to hln. 

2 They were briefing you on — 



UNCLASSiFIED 



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NAME • 
U223 
42214 
4225 
4226 
14227 
14228 
U229 
4230 
4231 
4232 
4233 
4234 
4235 
4236 
4237 
4238 
4239 
4240 
4211 
4242 
4243 
4244 
424S 
4246 
4247 



HIR245000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 175 



A What thay thought. 

2 On that papai? 

A Yes. 

S Did you ratain Dan Kuykendall in Deceraber of 1986 
through Hay of 1987 for lobbying purposes? 

A I think ua hava--ua did. I am not sura he is--had to 
do anything, but wa paid hin . 

2 Did you pay him in excess of «100,000 in December of 
1986 and June of 1987? 

A I don't think so. 

2 Did you pay him-- 

A At all. 

2 Uas a figure of 412.000 a month negotiated between 
you and Hr . Kuykendall in Dacanbar of 1986? 

A It was a littla earlier than that, but that would 
have been the figure . 

2 Did those payments continue through nay of this 
year ? 

A Sob* have. Ha have not--wa have not dona--we did a 
little bit of lobbying. I think, in January or February, and 
than ha helped us gat information on Afghanistan, and 
intzoducad us to soma people on Capitol Hill who are experts 
on Afghanistan, and ha has uozkad with us on three other 
programs that have had nothing to do with overt politics. 
Our Glasnost project, for instance, talking about 



ICUSSIFIED 



366 



KAME 

42U9 
U2S0 
1425 1 
4252 
14253 
4254 
4255 
4256 
4257 
4258 
4259 
4260 
4261 
4262 
4263 
4264 
4265 
4266 
4267 
4268 
4269 
4270 
4271 
4272 



HIR24S000 



wmm 



PAGE 176 



th« Russian peaca offansiva, tha naw summit that is coming 
up and somathing alsa--ba ahout saven or aight programs this 
spring that he has raally helpad introduce us to people 
about--oh, tha conference that ua have also been planning and 
researching, he has helped with a lot on democracies and 
insurgency warfare. 

2 If I could ask you to turn back to that document in 
Exhibit 1, which would ba around January 5th of 1987-- 

A Tha strategy paper. 

2 Yes, public affairs and strategy paper for Spitz, 
Channall and NEPL. 

A I don't know why I don't know uhara that is. Thank 
you vary much. All right, sir. 

2 This public affairs strategy for you that was put 
together by Rich Millar. Dan Kuykandall. and I assumed David 
C. Fischer and Associates, since thay ware also mentioned m 
tha first paragraph. Did you adopt this strategy? 

ns . KORRISOK: I have got a relevance problem with 
that. 

HR. OLIVER: Hell, if you will look at page 3, you 
will sea on that page tha names of members of this select 
coMiittaa. and I would like to ask Hi. Channall about the 
strategy as it related to thosa naabars of his investigative 
committee . 

ns. MORRISON: Ha aza not looking at the same page. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



367 



NAME 
4273 
42714 
4275 
4276 
4277 
4278 
4279 
4280 
4281 
4282 
4283 
4284 
4285 
4286 
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4288 
4289 
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4291 
4292 
4293 
429U 



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UNCLASSinED 



PAGE 177 



MR. OLIVER: You ara looking at that page. 

THE WITNESS: Thesa--! don't think thesa paople are 
the members of the coraraittaas. with all due respect to you. 
This IS McCurdy-- 

MR. OLIVER: Hall, if you will look at-- 

THE WITNESS: --on the coramttae . 

BY HR. OLIVER: 
2 If you will look at paga two. the previous page, it 
says tha select comitittaas ata not even convening until late 
January and early February, but during this time, staff 
manbais will be picking thair targets . Ua shall move 
quickly to reassure our friends and to placate our new-found 
antagonists . 
A Yes. 

2 Ara tha new-found antagonists the menbars of the 
select connittaa? 

A I don't think — whan this was written, I don't think 
anybody knew who thay ware or if those people would be 
antagonistic. This was wtittan so early that — this was 
written vary aarly in this crisis. As you know, it was 
written prior to tha naming of tha committee members. That 
is how early it was written. 



*//i«/fa 



368 



WMss/fe 



NAME- HIR2US000 ^*^ PAGE 178 

4295 RPTS CAMTOR 

U296 DCHK HILTOM 

4297 (5:30 1 
14298 

4299 2 Do you think it's just a coincidanca that most of 

4300 the namas on that list aia membais of tha salact coramittees? 

4301 MS. MORRISON: fir. Olivar, now you ara debating the 
U302 document which he didn't draft. Sonaone else wrote it for 
U303 hin . You are debating with hia about hou naites got on the 
U30(4 list and whether or not it's a coincidence. 

U305 MR. OLIVER: Counsel, he just indicated he was 

(4306 briefed on this strategy paper by Mr. Miller and Mr. 

U307 Kuykendall so I assune he is familiar with it. 

(4308 MS. MORRISON: I also have a standing objection on 

14309 what the relevance is. That is where we started this 

<4310 diversion on to page 3 of the document. I don't see what 

<43 11 his strategy for dealing with the crisis after it had arisen 

14312 and was over has to do with the committee's mission with 

14313 respect to finding out what led to it. 

'431>4 MR. OLIVER: I'm trying to determine. Counsel, 

143 15 whether or not the names that are associated with the 

143 16 members of Congress listed there, all of whom have been 

14317 discussed at one time or another in this deposition, most of 

14318 whom were on Mr. Channell's payroll in 1985 and/or 1986 had 

14319 any assignments that were related to this investigation, and 



UNCLASSinED 



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NAME ■■ 
4320 
432 1 
4322 
4323 
4324 
432S 
4326 
4327 
4328 
4329 
4330 
4331 
4332 
4333 
4334 
433S 
4336 
4337 
4338 
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4342 
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4344 



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PAGE 179 



whether or not Mr. Kuykendall was paid to lobby this 
committee by Mr. Channell. 
THE WITNESS: No. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 Could you tell me, Mr. Channell, what along m the 
left-hand column on page 3--there are listed a number of 
members of Congress. 
A Yes. 

2 And opposite each one of then is a name of someone 
uho has been on your payroll. 
A Yes . 

S In 1986, IS that correct? 
A That's correct. 

fi Uhy are those nanes listed opposite the members of 
ingress ? 

MS. nORRISON: Again, Hr . Oliver, you are talking 
to hia about a document and a list ha didn't create. 

MR. OLIVER: It's a docuaent that was created at 
his request by people whos he paid to prepare the document, 
and is a document upon which he was briefed. 

ns. nORRISOK: Oo you want to ask him whether he 
was told about those names? 

HR. OLIVER: I'm asking him whether he knows. 
ns. nORRISOK: Do you know why the authors of the 
documents put those names next to the congressmen? - 



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NAME: 

uaus 

4346 
M3M7 
4348 
4349 
4350 
4351 
4352 
4353 
4354 
4355 
4356 
4357 
4358 
4359 
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436 1 
4362 
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4367 
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4369 



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PAGE 180 



THE WITNESS: The strategy as I was told would be 
that these people would tty to take--the deal was the azticle 
fcom the Lowell Sun. That is what this was focused on. and 
they were going to talk to these people about the article in 
the Lowell Sun. and tell then what a lie, total, unmitigated 
lie that was, and tell them that iron their dealings with me 
as paid consultant and experience with me that this was a 
lie, a libelous lie. That is when this document was put 
together, after that article had cone out, and that is what 
this document is focusing on. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 

S Were you going to pay these people to do this? 

A I was not involved with paying Dave Fischer 
anything at this time, and Dan Kuykendall. he was doing this 
I think for ne as a friendship. They were all incensed that 
a paper would write such things. This was not why I had 
employed these people at all. 

S It indicates in the top paragraph on page 3 in the 
second sentence of the first full paragraph, ''The schedule 
ox neetlngs and who will attend will be handled by Dan 
Kuykendall In conjunction with Lyn Nofsiger and IBC.'' what 
neetlngs were they referring to? 

A I think what they were going to do, because this of 
course was never inplenented, was to neet with various 
congressnen and show then our financial records, prove to 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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NAME ■■ 
4370 
437 1 
U372 
4373 
4374 
437S 
4376 
4377 
4378 
4379 
4380 
4381 
4382 
4383 
4384 
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PAGE 181 
them that this was a lia. That was ny idaa, because they 
wanted to take our financial recotds intnediately , they 
wanted to take our PAC records and everything, fly up to the 
House and say to these people ''we have the proof that all 
this Iran stuff is a lie, and here it is.'* 

2 And they did not do that? 

A They did not do that because the contra part of the 
Iran business began within weeks after that, and the whole 
issue becane nuch more conplex. and they did not do that. 

fi So this plan was not inplemented 7 

A That's right. This plan was based alnost entirely 
upon the Iran business and the supposed disclosures. 

S This plan was? 

A Yes . That is during the time in which this was 
promulgated. That is why it sounds so historical, that 
wasn't even a committee yet. 

2 Do you remember when you were briefed on this 
document? 

A It was early in January at the latest. 

2 The committee members were named in December of 
1986, so this would have taken place after committees. 

MS. nORKISOK: He said at the latest, Ftr . Oliver. 
TMZ WITNESS: We must not have known. They would 
have been on it. 

BY HR. OLIVER: 



UNCLASSIFIED 



372 



KAME ■ 
U395 
4396 
4397 
4398 
4399 
4400 

440 1 
4402 
4403 
4404 
4405 
4406 
4407 
4408 
4409 
44 10 

441 1 
4412 
4413 
4414 
4415 
4416 
4417 
4418 
4419 



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IINCISSSIFIEI) 



PAGE 182 



2 Old thaia cona a tinttt, Mr. Channell, when you 
raceived a chack irora PRODEMCA or two chacks from PRODEHCA 
to repay tha grant that you had givan to than in 1986? 

A Thay avantually sant those back, yes. 

2 Why did they do that? 

ns . MORRISON: Just a minuta . Thara is no 
foundation for that question. You are asking him to surmise 
what was in sonaona else's mind or what a group oi people 
had as their collective intent ioz returning funds. 

MR. OLIVER: x'm asking hia if he knows why they 
returned the «90,000. 

MS. nORRISON: Ask him. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Do you know why thay returned tha 990,000. Mr. 
Channall? 

A All I know is that their board voted to do that, 
and it was dona. That is what I iound out. 

2 Did you know they ware going to send the money back 
to you prior to your receiving the letter with the check? 

A No. 

2 Aitar you received tha latter with tha chack, did 
you discuss it with Mr. Kimble? 

A I haven't talked to Hr . Kimble this year. The 
latter did not come with tha chack. 

2 Did you discuss with Mrs. Garwood at any tine the 



yNCUSSIFIED 



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NAME 

UU20 
4U21 
mi22 

14 1423 
4I42U 
U42S 
141426 
41427 
141428 
Ut429 
41430 
14>431 

<41432 

141433 
14143U 
•4435 
14 1436 
141437 
•41438 
14439 
4440 
4441 
4442 
4443 
4444 



HIR245000 



ONCUSSIflEO 



PAGE 183 



return of tha grant iron PRODEHCA? 

A No. 

2 Did you know that Mrs. Garwood recaivad a latter 
from Mr. Kirabla explaining why they had sent the grant money 
back? 

A No. I'm glad to know it. 

2 You indicated that you had two meetings with 
Elliott Abrams. I assume one of those was a luncheon? 

A Yes . 

2 Which occurred in early January of 1986? 

A Yes . 

2 Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

2 And present at that meeting were you, Hr . Conrad, 
Hr . Artiano, Hr . Fischer, Hr . Abrams? 

A I think Rich Hiller. 

2 And Rich Hiller? 

A That's correct. 

2 Here the Goodmans present. Bob and Anna Goodman? 

A X don't recall that. 

2 Old you show Hr. Abraas the story boards for the 
television ads that you planned to run at that luncheon? 

A I don't remember that we did. 

2 Hhat was the purpose of the luncheon? 

A The purpose of the luncheon was to ascertain from 



IttASSIFP 



374 



4445 
14(446 
44147 
4448 
4449 
44S0 
4451 
4452 
4453 
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4455 
4456 
4457 
4458 
4459 
4460 
446 1 
4462 
4463 
4464 
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4466 
4467 
4468 
4469 



HIR243000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 184 



the assistant s«ctetazy what h« thought tha progress of 
thair proposed legislation would be through the 
subcommittees and committees in the House and the Senate 

2 Did you indicate to him at that time that you uere 
planning what was Known as the Central American freedom 
program? 

A Yes. 

2 Did you indicate to him that you were going to run 
television ads? 

A Yes. 

S Did you indicate to hia that they would be run in 
targeted districts? 

A We don't know where at that point we were going to 
run them. 

2 Did you ever consult with Hr . Abrams or Mr. Robert 
Kagan of his office about the legislative strategy related 
to the Central American freedom program? 

A At that luncheon the assistant secretary--that is 
why we met. to find out the timing for the movement of the 
bill, what his views were. Am I not being clear in that? 
I'm not a specialist in the lobbying business, so my wording 
may be poor, but I wanted to find out when they were going 
to propose the bill formally, how it would go through the 
committee, what they felt were the prospects for it, did 
they feel that they were going to have to rescind some of 



uNciiissro 



375 



NAME 

4470 
UU? 1 
UU72 
UU73 
1*4714 
14 475 
4476 
4477 
4478 
4479 
4480 
4481 
4482 
4483 
4484 
448S 
4486 
4487 
4488 
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4490 
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4493 
4494 



HIR24S0OO 



numtm 



PAGE 18S 



tha provisions, and dad they feel it would be amended. Did 
they feel it would get bottled up. That entire range of 
knowledge, I had none of that knowledge, and that is why ue 
went to him for advice, to find out what that time frame for 
that march through might be. 

2 My question was. subsequently did you consult with 
Mr . Abr ams ? 

A No. 

S Or anyone in his office about the Central American 
freedom fighters? 

A No. 

2 I just want to ask you a feu more questions about 
Exhibit 2, if I may, if you could turn to that. On page tl- 
B toward the bottom under ''other expenditures,'* there is 
an indication of an expenditure of «40,000 by Sentinel for 
something called North Defense. 

A Yes. 

2 Could you tell me what that was for? 

A That was money that we had originally collected to 
give to th« Oliver Korth Defense Fund, and then we were told 
by counsel that ue couldn't do that, so we had to send back 
the fund, which we did. 

e Hhy did the check coae from Sentinel? 

A You know. X don't know. 

Q Wasn't Sentinel your lobbying organization? 



iiNtussra 



376 



KANE: 

4495 
4496 
4497 
4498 
4499 
4500 
4501 
4502 
4503 
4504 
4505 
4506 
4507 
4508 
4509 
4510 
451 1 
4512 
4513 
4514 
4515 
4516 
4517 
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4519 



HIR24S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 186 



A Yes. I havo no Idaa. In fact, that might even be 
in the wiong place. I have no idea. It must have been that 
ouz counsel told us that we had to use Sentinel because it 
was not to give a grant to that, was not a tax-deductibla 
matter. Uhen you give money to legal defense funds, it is 
not taK-deductibla money, and so it was suggested that ue 
request money to put in the Sentinel and then give the grant 
from Sentinel. 

e But then after you gave the money, it turned out 
that you couldn't give the money from Sentinel? 

A No, that ue couldn't give that much money at all, 
and that my lawyer said, ''Spitz, you need to send all the 
money back because each person can give some, and they would 
probably want to give their money. Since you can't give 
that much' '--for a moment, I don't know whether you remember 
it or not, like a week or two. Colonel North had a defense 
fund. Then the Board of Governors during that week changed, 
and I'm not privy to why, and then they stopped the defense 
fund, and we were in the process of giving money or raising 
money for the defense fund, and getting ready to give money 
for the defense fund, and then those people evidently put 
everything In reverse and stopped it. Ue got the checks 
back, and sent then back. 

2 This entire amount? 



A Yes. 



uNcmssffl 



377 



NAME: 
4520 
US21 
4522 
"4523 
14524 
4525 
4526 
4527 
4528 
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4530 
4531 
4532 
4533 
4534 
4535 
4536 
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4538 
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HIR245000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 187 

2 You indicated aarliar yastarday that the Central 
American freedom program was a lobbying program. 

A No. 

2 Is that correct? 

A It's not correct at all. Central American freedom 
program was an educational program. Our lobbying program 
was our Sentinel program. 

2 The Central American freedom program was designed 
to influence legislation, is that correct? 

A No. It was designed to educate the American 
people . 

S Were the activities oi Edie Frazar designed to 
influence legislation? 

A That's correct. 

2 Ware the activities of Jack Lichenstein designed to 
i<^fluence legislation? 

A That' s correct. 

2 Ware the television ads in the targeted districts 
designed to influence legislation? 

A Tha Santinal ads wax*. ya>. dlractly so. 

2 Tha other ads that waxa tun by the Goodman Agency 
waxa not daslgnad to influanca legislation, is that correct? 

A That's cortact. 

2 Why Mara they run in spaoiflo targeted districts? 

A Soaa ware/ soma ware not, as your records will 



\mt\>ssro 



378 



NAME : 
45145 
4546 
USUV 
USU8 
45149 
4550 
4551 
4552 
4553 
4554 
4555 
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4557 
4558 
4559 
4560 
4561 
4562 
4563 
4564 
4565 
4566 
4567 
4568 
4569 



HIR245000 



ONCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 188 



show. Utt tan soma in Batbaia Hauington's stata. Ua ran 
soma in TaKas uhara thaia wazen't any tazgatad paopla. Ua 
lan soma in Hiami, bacausa of Kr . Piazca, who was ona of our 
contributors. In all araas ua uantad to aducata and inform. 

You choosa uhat you can. Ua didn't hava unlimitad funds. 
and wa had, as I hava talKad about, a variaty of needs to do 
that. Our Santinal ads uara vary diractly related to the 
legislation. As you know, after the 22nd or whatever it was 
of March, our educational ads went forward, even though the 
vote was over. Our Sentinel ads began I would say a weak or 
10 days prior to tha vote, and stopped the morning of the 
vote . 

2 Would you turn back to Exhibit 1 , tha latter of 
April 15. 1986, to Rich Miller. 

A What was the number of that? 

2 It's dated April 15. It's 079240. 

A Yes. 

2 You indloata in thara in tha second paragraph from 
tha bottom oi tha first page th»t you began to notify your 
subcontractors and consultants that all Santinal financial 
arrangamants with them would ba tarminatad on April 15. 
than on tha naKt page thara Is a list of eight people and 
ona organization. Could you tall ma whloh paopla on that 
list ware subcontraetozs to Santinal. paid by Santinal? 

A Hall, wa would hava tha record thara on your sheet. 



ICIASSIFIED 



379 



MAME ■ 
U570 
457 1 
4572 
4573 
4574 
4575 
4576 
4577 
4578 
4579 
4580 
4581 
4582 
4583 
4584 
4585 
4586 
4587 
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4589 
4590 
4591 
4592 
4593 
4594 



HIR245000 



mumm 



PAGE 189 

It would b« Goodman would be part of it, and Edie Frazer 
would hav« baan part oi it, KuyKandall oi course would be 
part of It, Lichenstein would be part of Sentinel. Goodman 
of course did both. Kuykendall participated in both. 

2 Mr. Artiano or fir. Cook were not paid by Sentinel' 

A That's right. 

2 And Kimble was not paid by Sentinel? 

A That's correct. 

2 Old Sentinel register with the House of 
Representatives as a lobbyist during this period of time? 

A Yes. We were late once with the report, but, yes, 
we registered. Yes. we filed the report. 

2 In 1986? 

A Not only did we but Dan Kuykendall filed. In fact. 
he helped us write our Sentinel report because he was the 
major lobbyist for us. so that when he referred to Sentinel 
activities, he would be referring to what he had done for 
us. He would be listing in detail what he had done for us 
by his knowledge. 

2 He was youz principal lobbyist? 

A Yea. 

2 And you indicated yesterday I think you used the 
term that you practically lived with hia in 1986? 

A Yes. and we aze talking about five days a week. We 
used to share a seal alaost every day oi the week, and he 



mmm 



380 



NAME : 
U595 
4596 
4597 
4598 
4599 
4600 
460 1 
4602 
4603 
4604 
4605 
4606 
4607 
4608 
4609 
46 10 
46 1 1 
4612 
4613 
46 14 
46 15 
46 16 
4617 
4618 
4619 



HIR245000 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE 190 



would call ma at iiva minutes aftar 11 00 avaiy Sunday 
moining ioc tha ueakand round-up oi naus which had occurred 
since ha want to bad tha night baiora. Incredible. 

S And ioi that, as youf principal . obviously you paid 
him a total of ♦11,000 in 1986? 

A I think you mentioned 12. Twelve I think is 
accurate . 

2 And that is all that you paid him? 

A That was an agraamant par month, for all of their 
activities . 

2 Par month? 

A Yes. 

2 If you would turn to analysis II-B, statement of 
operations, 1986, that wa have compiled, it shows a total in 
1986 to Mr. Kuykandall of «26,113, only «11,000 of which 
came from Sentinel, and tha other 414,080 came from NEPL. 
For all of Mr. Kuykandall's lobbying efforts in 1986, he was 
only paid a total of *1 1,000, is that correct? 

A I think probably soma of that that is not reflected 
here is raflaotad In what Rich Hlllac paid him tha first 
part of 1986. As I have told you before, ha worked with IBC 
as I guass you would call it IBC's lobbying research man for 
a long tlaa . Z made no agraamant dlxactly with Kuykandall 
until a vary small agraamant wa had in June or July, and 
then we xadld that agraamant later in tha year, and that is 



UNCIASSIHED 



381 



14620 
4621 
4622 
4623 
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4625 
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4630 
4631 
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4633 
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4641 
4642 
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4644 



HIR24S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 191 



th« first tima w« directly picked up Kuykandall's bills, so 
this would raflact this part of tha yaar. 

2 So for all thosa maatings fiva days a waak dutin? 
that pariod of tima as your principal lobbyist, ha was only 
paid by your lobbying organization «1 1,000? 

A Yas . 

MS. nORRISOK: Hr . Olivar, you hava asked tha 
quastion. Tha witnass has answarad tha quastion. Tha 
*1 1,000 figura is your figura, not ona that Mr. Channall has 
givan you. Ha didn't do that docuaant. Exhibit 2 is 
sonathing that you all put togathar. 
BY NR. OLIVER: 

2 Hr . Channall, you rafarrad in a nuabar of thasa 
docuaants or rafarrad to in thasa docuaants, you usad tha 
coda naaa of Graan for Colonal Horth. Uhat was tha purpose 
of that? 

A You hava statad tha purposa. It was a coda nama 
that wa wara Introducad to whan wa first started working 
with Rich and frank. Thay called this aan Graan. For a 
vary long tlaa, like two aonths, whan thay wara referring to 
Colonel Korth, I thought thay wara talking about a Hr . 
Green, and it wasn't until ouz aeeting with hia that they 
talked about Green that I finally identified Colonel Horth 
as the aan, and to ay knowledge it was a nicknaae; I have 
never known why they did it. Unless I was writing vary 



UNCussra 



382 



KAKE: 

ueus 

146146 
146147 
146148 

U6149 
U650 
U651 
14652 
M653 

146514 

14655 
14656 
14657 
14658 
14659 
(4660 
■4661 
14662 
U663 
146614 
U665 
14666 
14667 
14668 
14669 



HIR214S000 



UNCUSSIFe 



PAGE 192 



quicXly. I navsz did it. I always used to wzita Colonel 
Ollvaz North oz Ollia. To this day I don't know why thay 
coda-nanad him that. I don't know what it maans othaz than 
somebody's cod* nam*. I navaz Knau what you naadad the code 
for . 

2 Did you instruct your amployaas to refer to him as 
Green? 

A No. They loved to do that, because that was 
aKciting. but they would hear me talking on the phone about 
Ollie North/ writing letters about Ollie North. I know 
Ellen Garwood loved to call him Mr. Green, and when she 
would write m* letters thinking that nr . Green was her real 
son. I got the impression that she was talking to me on the 
telephone underneath her bed, about the fun she was having. 
She always used Hr . Green religiously. 

2 You indicated earlier that the ads in 1985 run by 
the Goodman Agency were paid for by the American 
Conservative Trust, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q And I believe that the total in 1985 that was paid 
to the Robert Goodman Agency for these ads was «282,678; 
•168,000 from NEPL, and *11U,085 from the American 
Conservative Trust state election fund? 

A Yes. 

fi These ads were designed to influence the vote in 



UNCUSSIFIED 



383 



NAME : 
4670 
4671 
4672 
U673 
U67U 
14675 
4676 
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4682 
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HIR245000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 193 



Congress, isn't that correct? 

A Tha ACT was. yas . 

2 Why uara thasa ads paid for by a stata alaction 
fund? 

A Bacausa at that tima wa had no lobbying 
organization, and our counsal said that ua could usa tha 
stata alaction fund to talk about thosa issuas, which we 
did. 

2 You could usa tha stata alaction funds? 

A That's right. 

S To influanca Fadaral legislation? 

A To talk about thosa issuas, yas. 

2 Did ha giva you that opinion in writing? 

A I don't know whathar it can* in a lattar or not. 

2 Did tha transfazs that wara railactad from NEPL to 
Santinal in 1986 of approKimataly *1 22 , O00--was tha purposa 
of thosa transfazs in March to pay for tha Santinal ads 
prior to tha vota that was to occur in Congrass in April? 

A Ko . Tha flva or six transfars you ara talking 
about, you aight hava baan out oi tha rooa at tha tima. I 
said that Z was unawara that thosa wara occurring. I only 
knaw ona, and that was a aistaka. Thay had writtan a chack 
Inoozractly. so I don't know about that. 

2 Who had tha authority to transfer 4122.000 in a 
thraa-waak period fzoa tha KZPL account to the Sentinel 



nmssim 



384 



MAKE' 

4695 
4696 
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4698 
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HIR24S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 194 



account? 

A Dan Coniad had tha authority to writs ch«cks back 
and forth. I wasn't awara oi it. As I 3ust said to you. I 
wasn't awaza that that happanad, if indaad it did. Thera 
may ba , by tha way. sona vary legitinata raason why that had 
to ba dona. As you ara uai.1 awara. avary -^^^^-CcJCS) spend a 
cartain parcantaga of its budgat on lobbying. Tha IRS has 
navar mada a complata dasignation as to what anounts . Theca 
ara many S01(c)(3)s who will spand 10 parcant of their 
budgat. for us that would hava baan last year. 1986. 
S750.000 from NEPL to Santinal, li thay wished. 

2 I'm not awara that a 501(c)(3) can spand 10 parcant 
of their funds on any lobbying. 

A Fine. You nay xaiar to tha Maw York Times and the 
hearings that hava baan held hare on that this spring. I 
wasn't awara of it either. Our lobbying expenditures from 
our 501(c)(3). if you count all that together, amounted to 
1.5 percent of our NEPL income for last year, which would ba 
far baloH tha national average formally acceptable to the 
IRS, so even it wa did. even ii I had known about that. I 
think that would hava baan wall within tha law. 

S Ii tha balance in your NEPL account had been 
saxiously aiiaotad by this transiax of tax-deductible funds 
to a lobbying corporation for tha purpose of running 
television ads. do you believe that that might have been a 



wxsm 



385 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Hknt HIRZUSOOO UllLlL/ttlllll 11 iJ PAGE 195 



14720 
U721 
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violation oi tha taK coda? 

nS. nORRISON: I object to th« question. Ua ata 
not going to talk about hypothaticals hara. Ha is not a 
lauyat and doasn't piofass to ba . 

THE WITHESS: I'n aitaid I'm going to have to tcy 
to run out. 

nR. OLIVER: I hava got a lot oi othar questions. 
Ua will just postpone thaa for another day. 

[Whereupon, at 6'00 p.m., the deposition 
ad journed . 1 



UNCUSSinEG 



386 



NAME: HIR260000 



Jbfit' 



RPTS STEIK 
DCHN DAKXELS 



^miwB 



PAGE 1 



DEPOSITZOK OP CARL 






Cf^\(U:V!4L 



ThUEsday, S*pt«mb«r 17. 1987 

Hous* oi R«pr«s«ntativ*s . 
S*l«ct Comiiitt** to Invastlgat* 
CovAEt Aim* Tsansactions ulth 
Iran, 
Washington. D.C. 

Tha salaot comalttaa aat. pursuant to call, at 
10:15 a.m.. In B-352> Rayburn Housa Ofiloa Building. Spancar 
Olivar (Associata Staff Counsal) prasiding. 

Pxasant: Spancar Olivac. Associata Staff Counsal. 
Housa Salaot Coamlttaa. and Chiai Counsal. Housa Pozaign 
Affairs CoM«lttaa; Toa Pryaan. Staff Counsali Kannath R. 
Buck. Assistant Minority Counsal> and Victor Zangla. 
issoolata Staff Kaabar. Housa Salaot Coaalttaa . 

Also prasanti AlaKia Horrlson. Esq. . Swidlar £ 
Baxlin. on bahalf of tha wltnass. 




iioo 



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J y -^^^ 



i?l Ix^^x 




■irfOT PTOvIAmm o( E.0. 12156 
SMw, NaliotuI Security Council 



387 



HXnt HIR260000 



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2U 

25 

26 

27 

28 

29 

30 
31 
32 
33 
3U 
35 
36 
37 
38 
39 
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143 



Hh«r«upon, 

CARL SPITZ CHAHHELL 
uas callad for as a witness and, having previously b««n 
sworn, uas axamnad and tastifiad as follows = 

FURTHER EXAMIMATIOM BY COUMSEL FOR THE SELECT 
COHHITTEE 

HR. OLIVER: This Is a continuation of tha 
deposition of Carl Channall. Tha witness has baan 
previously sworn. 

BY MR. OLIVER' 
a Hr. Channall. wa wara talking, discussing tha othar 
day tha Central Anarican freedom Program and the development 
of that program, how it was executed and who was involved. 
One of the exhibits that was discussed last weeK was a 
letter from you on April 15, 1986 to Richard Killer that 
related to our subcontractors .' ' quoting the letter. 
Do you recall that latter? 
A Yes. 

a 1 would like to ask you about some of those 
subcontractors, but before I do. I would like to enter as 



UmI Channell Inhibit No. 50--I ask the reporter to mark the 
eKhlbit. Tha exhibit is a memorandum to you from Rich 
Hillar and frank Gomea dated January 9. 1986. Subject: 



)KbHtfM/ll«lMMd on 

u 

byD, 



freedom Program. 

[Exhibit Ho. 50 was marked for identification.! 



unicr pi 
9. iliko. 



U.L/ ,,n^ 




Mm 



providom o< LO. 12356 
National Security Council 



388 



NAME: 
U9 
SO 
SI 
52 
53 
514 
55 
56 
57 
58 
59 
60 
61 
62 
63 
614 
65 
66 
67 
68 
69 
70 
71 
72 
73 



HIR260000 



mmi 



f% ? 5*1= ^ ^ 



BY HR. OLIVER: 



Do you racall lacaiving that msmoranduB? 
& This? 

e Y*s. 

A No. 

fi Do you r*oall Rich nill«t and Frank Gomaz 
racomaanding to you that Bruca Camaron ba ratainad by your 
organization or through PRODEHCA? 

A Thay Introducad ■• to hin and that is how wa cama 
to try to halp his. I had navar known his bafora. 

fi But thay racommandad that you glva a grant to 
whatavar antlty you uitlaataly gava a grant to to ratain 
Bruca CaMaroni right? 

A Thay raooBBandad that ha ba brought on to tha 
program and that wa pay his aithar dlractly or through Rich 
nillar's aiiorta. 

fi Is It also tha oasa that David rischar and Harty 
Artiano vara introducad to you by Rich Hlllar? 

I Yas. 

ft la laooBsandad that your ratain thasa paopla for 
various sazvieas to your organizationt is that corract? 

A Yaa . 

ft Is it also trua that Rioh Iflllar racoaaandad tha 
Goodaan Agancy for tha talavision ads that wara praparad and 
run in 1985 and 1986? 




389 



ONCLliSSlHEO 

Hint HIR260000 W • * w — • '^ ^^^^ ^ 

714 . A I think so. 

75 . a Is that correct? 

76 A Yas. 

77 fi Hon did you aaat Dan Kuykandall? 

78 . A I was intzoducad to hi« at Rich Hillar's offica. 

79 . fi Is it also trua that Rich Hillaz zacomnandad that 

80 Dan Kuykandall ba ratainad by you ior sazvicas to youz 

81 organization? 

82 A Hall, Rich was part — I ataan, Dan Kuykandall uas part 

83 oi — Dan Kuykandall uas avidantly a rasouzca to Rich Millar 
St whoa I cama to valua haliway through 1986 a lot. And than I 

85 mada a diract ralationship with Dan Kuykandall in July or 

86 August. 

87 fi But tha original zalatlonahlp batwaan you and Dan 

88 Kuykandall aaanatad izoa your — 

89 A Rich Hillar's work with Kuykandall trying to halp 

90 aa with inioraation, yas . 

9 1 fi How did you coaa to know Pann Kaabla? 

92 A Rich Introducad aa to Pann also. 

93 fi Did Rich Hillar raooaaand that you giva a grant to 

94 PRODZHCA in iurtharanca of tha Cantral Aaarican fraadoa 

95 Piograa? 

96 A Ko. Z don't raaaabaz that. Pann Kaabla hiasalf 

97 talkad to. aa about thair naad ior iunds to halp placa this 

98 ad that -^a wara ourrantly writing in various nawspapars. and 



mmm 



390 



K&HE: 

99 
100 
10 1 
102 
103 
10M 
105 
106 
107 
108 
109 
1 10 
1 1 1 
112 
1 13 

1 m 
lis 

1 16 
1 17 
1 18 
1 19 
120 
121 
122 
123 



Mr 



HIR260000 %»! 1 VV.f «',» V- » *' » PAGE S 
I asked him hou nuch it would b* , and I iorg«t. I don't know 
whathAi w* war* abla to gat him all oi it oc just pact oi 
It. I don't cacall that Rich askad ma to do it oz Pann 
himself askad. 

e You had originally baan introduced to Kemble by 
Rich Hiller? 

A That ^ right. 

Q How did you coma to know Lyn Koizigar? 

A I had--Rlch took us over to see him I think twice or 
three times, and at various times Rich would say, ''I have 
just mat with Lyn and Lyn thinks you should be looking at 
this, studying that. You are not doing this, and what do 
you think . * * 

And ha said this a very great deal. And most oi 
the time I would go hmm. Eventually I thought maybe I 
should go see Lyn Kofzlger myseli and talk to him directly. 
As you know, I eventually began to create oiiicial 
relationships with Rich's board of advisers directly myself, 
because Rich Hiller was — it was my view that he was not going 
to be as strong on a lot oi other programs as he had been on 
Nicaragua, and I did not want to lose the benefit of all 
this wisdom when we stopped Nicaragua. 

A> you know. I was beginning to work on other 
programs even in Harch and April/f beoause Nicaragua was 
supposed to end the 20th of Harch and we had scheduled to 



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start working on SDI, th« Constitution project, rr««dori 
ninut«s . th« fourth of July calibration, lots of other 
things th« 21st of Harch. 

*nd whan I had talkad to Rich a lot about this, ha 
didn't--you may not \t^ this phrasa, bring to tha tabla 
tramandous ability and knowladgaabla paopla . 

I said I an just going to hava to gat out and gat 
thasa paopla nysalf or ratain than mysalf for thasa othar 
projacts bacausa Rich doasn't carry that axparianca and that 
axpartisa . 

So vary shortly aftar tha first vota and by lata spring, 
was raally moving mysalf to saa thasa paopla. I had alraady 
craatad official ralationshlps mysalf with tham . 

a So thasa paopla tihom you cama to Know through Rich 
miliar or who wara racommandad by Rich Miliar avantually 
bacama diractly involvad with your organization? 

k That is right. 

Q Hhan did that bagln to ocour? 

& Baglnnlng in lata spring, I would say, April or 
Hay. 

8 So that would hava baan Hr . Fisehar and Hr . 

AttianoT 

X Ha andad up giving tham— not Harty Artiano, but wa 
gava fisohar, 1 think it was two ohaoks without IBC baing 
involvad in tha lata sumaar or aarly fall bacausa wa waran't 



UNClASSiflEO 



392 



H»ME HIR260000 l||lljL.nOO • ■ »•-*' P»Ge 7 

1t49 laally working with Rich vacy much than at all. And that. 

ISO by giving him thosa chacks, wa wara saying that Rich 

15 1 wasn't--that David was not pazt oi Rich Hlllat anymora. 

152 Wa gava tha monay dizactly to David {or his halp on 

1 S3 our programs . 

ISU David had an ability to halp ua far and away mora 

155 than Rich Hillar did bacausa David was not pmnad to ona 

156 issua. David has connactions all ovar tha Unitad Statas. 

157 Paopla who support tha Piasidant, on a variaty of issuas. 

158 and wa wara moving on to a variaty of issuas. And so David 

159 was going to ba raal haavilyy^in halping us frama, for 

160 instanca, our Constitution projaot. 

161 I am sura you hava saan tha Oan Conzad ''to do'' 

162 list, 8 or 10 pagas of namas that David and wa halpad put 

163 togathar of paopla wa wantad to contact all ovar tha Unitad 
1614 Statas to halp us fund tha Constitution projact. 

165 Kich Hlllar just didn't hava anything lika that to 

166 bring to tha tabla. 

167 RPIS STXIN 

168 DCHN DANIILS 

169 a Hhy did you go back to Rich Hillar and IBC in, I 

170 ballava, Dacambar or January — Daoaabaz of 1986 or January of 

171 1987, if you had baliavad that thay couldn't halp you with 

172 futuza programs? 

173 A As aazly as Novambaz. whan I found out how tha 




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Hint HIR260000 



ONCUSS! 



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fr««doii fighter bill had finally b««n fashioned to ba 
signad, u* raalizad that ua wara going to hava a battla m 
aarly January--that is whan ua thought tha battla would 
occur, to ralaasa tha «>40 nillion. 

I callad Rich and said, ' ' Wa ara going to hava to 
gat back togathaz . Ua aza going to start Kicaragua again. 
Ua naad to hava soma maatings and find out what tha 
ptocaadings ^ going to ba, what you think, what your 
rasourcas say . ' ' 

I, of coursa, was daallng with othar paopla, too, 
but I had only hirad two paopla that ha had daalt with and 
ha had friands at tha Stata Dapartmant, friands at tha Uhita 
Housa, friands from Cantral Amatlca, congrassional paopla, 
whom I had haard tha namas from tima to tima. but I had 
navar daalt with tham mysalf. 

k I said, "'Ua aza going to hava to gat togathar and 
gat a program raady for aarly January. Thay ara going to 
try to dafaat tha «U0 million, so lat's start maating.'" 
Q Did you gat a program raady for January? 
X Ha navar got it ■i% i »kx A - *»• workad with Kuykandall 
on it as a lobbyist, but Rich Hlllar was W/^involvad , as I 
b«oama, with this projaot, that wa couldn't do it. But wa 
did spand monay with Kuykandall who aaamad to hava his hand 
on it. 

fi So tha •'*0 million was ralaasad without much of a 




y 



iS.._V 



394 



•■;■•••:, yiussiRED ■■■ 



NAME 

199 strugg 

200 A That iS right. 

20 1 fi So that uas raaily tha and of tha Cantral Amarican 

202 Freadora Fightar Program? 

203 A Yas . 

20U fi What alsa did you ratain Rich Miliar to do m lata 

205 1986 and aarly 1987? 

206 A Wall, wa wara going to work on savacal — wa wara 

207 hoping to work on savaral othar program, and — 

208 2 Did you ratain hi« to do a study of domastio 

209 organizations that wara supporting tha Sandinista 

210 Govarnitant? 

211 A Ha had suggastad to aa that this could ba dona. 

2 12 that ha had traaandous sourcas of information ha had baan 

213 compiling and did I think this would ba a tiorthHhila 

214 projact. 

2 15 . I said. "Hy goodnass. yas. that would ba wondarful 

216 if it could ba thorough and oomplata." I had haphazard 

217 pickups of information from tlma to tima and I thought that 
2 18 would raally ba wondatful to ba abla to show tha antira. if 

219 it was posslbla. voluminous raport on tha aotivitias of 

220 thosa paopla who diffarad with tha Prasidant on fraadom 
22 1 flghtars on Cantral Amarioan policy. 

222 fl Did ha do that study for you? 

223 A Ha did— what would you call it— a final draft of it. 



KLKSffl 



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HIR260000 Ul 1^&«i; i>)? V < t^tm'i^ pAGE tO 

fi Hith an appandix? Was th«i« an appandix to tha 
draft? 

A I don't know; mayba . 

fi What did you do with that final draft whan ha 
submittad it to you? 

A Ua had aight or tan copias of it, four or fiva 
copias of it. 

2 What did you do with tham? 

A I think I had two copias in tha trunk of ny car. 

8 What did you do with tha othar copias? 

A I gava soma away to ay staff, and I think wa may 
hava sant ona or two out. As I said, wa had so faw. Tha 
thing was about two inchas thioK. and I don't know what 
othar paopla did with thalrs, but mlna I think is in tha 
trunk of my car. It wasn't flnlshad, of coursa. 

Q You said you sant ona or two out. Do you ramambar 
who you sant It to? 

A I don't ramambar whathar I sant any out, but wa may 
hava . 

fi Do you know whathar any ooplas wara sant to Hambars 
of CongrassT 

A I don't think so. It wasn't flnlshad. 

a Hhy would you sand It out? 

A That is right. It wasn't flnlshad. 

9 You said you sant ona or two ooplas. 




bU'4^-^-^'''^ 



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249 
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HIR260000 UrIvLnUvJi ?LU P»GE 11 

X I think u* s«nt on* to soaabody in California nayb* 
and on* oi ouz conttibutots . X don't know what happanad to 
tha East of than. Thara uaza vary faw--ua navar finishad tha 
PEo^act, bacausa it turns out that tha funding was going to 
ba mora than wa could afford, and so I just said sinca wa 
can't afford it, ua ara just going to hava to stop. 



Did you giva ona to Dan Kuykandall? 



H^ 



k ^ It should hava had ona. I am not sura I gava it to 
him. I wall could hava to go ovar bacausa ha would ba ona 
of tha paopla who would hava such axpartisa that ha would 
naad to go ovar, not naoassarily . adit tha antira raport. 

S What axpartisa would ha hava that ralatad to study 
of such organizations? 

X Ha would know. I think ha doas know many of tha 
groups that lobby on Capitol Hill for points of viaw that 
ara contrary to tha Prasidant's policy, bacausa I assuma 
that ha would bump into tham from tima to tima in his work 
up hara. Ha should know a lot of tham. 

fi Did you discuss tha raport with him? 

A Z don't raoall any spaolfio dlsoussion with him. 
As I say. It was navar finishad Ilka I was hoping. 

ft Hhan Hz. Hillaz oonvayad tha draft raport to you, 
did ha indloata to you that you should consult an attornay 
prior to making any usa oi that dooumant? 

A Z don't zaoall that. Again. It was navar finishad. 



! W:W^ 



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HII1260000 ^jin''J*-I*'=^*-'^- ' P»GE 12 

It was n«v«t put into a position whar* u* could prasant it. 
I was going to avantually hava a pzass confatanca and hand 
It out to tha Moild. but wa navaz cama closa to baing in 
that position bacausa it uas navaz finishad. 

2 do you hava knouladga as to whathaz oz not that 
docuaant was avaz convayad to any staff mambaz, a Hanbaz of 
Congzass oz a Hanbaz of tha Sanata? 
k I don't know. 

5 You hava no knowladga? 
I Mo. 

Q Did you avaz discuss tha papaz Mith Congzassnan 
Kuykandail? 

6 As I said, I an suza at so*a tlaa that ua should 
hava dlscussad it, bacausa I uantad hla to go ovaz it, 
zavlaw it, naka it battaz, czlticlza It, and — 

fi Do you zaoall discussing with hia how it might ba 
utlllzad? 

A Hall, ay Idaa, as I said, Mas to hava a pzass 
confazanoa and glva it to tha wozld. Ha alght hava had 
diffazant Idaas . 

fi Old Rich nillaz's Idaa for this zapozt coaa to you 
aitai tha 25th of Novaabaz 1986? 

A Yaa . Howavaz, wa had dlsouasad tha naad to do this 
typa of thing as aazly as Hazch oz Apzll of 1986. Ha caaa 
to aa Hlth this Idaa bacausa ha knaw that I was looking foz 






398 



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3m 

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HIR260000 
this . 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



PAGE 13 



Wh«n wa had first hiiad--! don't tanambac th« othar 
guys nana who want down to Nicaragua and mada a raport on 
human ri9hts--WasV Smith--I said to Rich, ' 'Wouldn't it ba 
uondarful if wa could hava sona paopla do sona studias on 
all tha activitias of all thasa groups in this issua and 
find out uhara thay ara coming from, who thair sponsors ara, 
what thair goals ara, avazything and do a larga study? 
Nobody knows who is involvad.'' 

2 But you didn't do that? 

A No. So Rich Millar caaa back to ma lata in tha 
yaar and said, ''I think wa can put all this information 
togathar and do a major study.'* I thought that would ba 
wondarf ul . 

fi Waran't you rathar concarnad at that tima with 
othar things such as tha artiela that appaarad in tha Lowall 
SunA«y and tha «<40 million that naadad to ba votad upon for 
ralaasa in rabruary? 

It saams lika an unusual tima for you to bagin a 
projaot that you had thought about for soma tima and hadn't 
aotually undartakan. 

Hy quaation is, was tha dacision to hava this study 
dona ralatad in any way to tha invastlgation or tha 
invastlgations that warm undaruay In Daoambar and January of 
1986-1987? 






399 



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HIR260000 






No. As I am sura you ai« wall awaxa, I mada a 
tiajoE statamant on tha Louall Sun4*y nawspapar businass, 
bacausa that was just somathing that uas totally out oi this 
world, totally a bunch of lias, and wa thought that it uas 
soma political attack on us. 

And aftar all. ua had baan vary activa on an issue 
that was vary controvarsial and wa axpactad to gat attackad. 
but not in this fantastic iora, but wa axpactad to ba 
attackad . 

On tha othar hand, tha «M0 million, which wa fait 
frankly was going to raquira a smallar, mora tachnical 
program to try to halp it to gat ovar tha lump, wa had sort 
of a--I lookad at it at a braathing spaca, and wa had 
compilad, all of us had compilad so much Information, so 
many naws clippings, so many paopla had spokan on tha issua 
of Nicaragua that I thought this was a raal good tima to do 
a study of axactly who tha forcas wara that wara making 
policy in tha Unitad Statas ragardlng Cantral Amarica and 
gat It all togathar for onca . 

Simply to what you aza doing right now, aftar thara 
hava baan Invastlgatlons and haarings, now you ara putting 
it all togathar, you hava tima to adit, put things togathar, 
talk to paopla axtansivaly. 

This procass is not unlqua to tha Housa of 
Raprasantatlvas . 




400 



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HIR260000 



Kimm 



PAGE 15 



e I wish u* did hava that kind of tima. I taally do. 

k Ua fait that wa had baan axposad to so many 
dliiatont groups, nau groups > what thay waxa doing ua 
waran't sura and I laarnad about a lot oi groups I navar 
knau aKistad baiora and I was vary anxious to gat somathing 
togathar. a huga voluna that would talk about what was going 
on. 

Wa had vary llttla authoritatlva iniornation during 
tha antira canpaign as to what group was doing what, whara 
thay wara coming irom and Z thought this was a good tiiia . 

Q Did you raad tha raport? 

X I raad it onca. yas . 

fi Did you convay an opinion to Hr . Miliar about tha 
marits oi tha raport? 

k Yas. 

8 What did you say to hia? 

k It was no good. 

fi Why not? 

K Wall, thara waxa lota oi — I didn't iaal lika it had 
much aaat In it. Thaxa wara lots oi Xaroxas irom articlas 
and lagal dooumants which wara old, and I didn't know tha 
ralavanoa oi tham. Thara wasn't a narrativa that truly 
davalopad whara tha antlia panoply oi groups wara coming 
irom. 

It was axcaadlngly Inoomplata as to tha numbar oi 






^i 



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HIR260000 



UNCLASSIREI 



?kGt 



16 



groups that w«t« discussad. I think thara waia only mayba 
four or fiva groups oi any substanca that wara discussad. 
And I said to hin, ''This is just--'" in a long 
convar sation-- ' ' axtranaly incoraplata. It is axactly what wa 
want in a vary wall dafinad fora dranatically axpandad . ' ' 

At which point ha said, ''That is going to cost a 
lot mora monay bacausa ii you want that, wa ara going to 
hava to do a lot mora rasaarch. It is going to taka a lot 
longar . ' ' 

I said, **Okay. I will gat back to you.'* 

fi How Buch did you pay hin ior tha drait? 

A I think tha two nonths oi rasaarch or whatavar was 
«10.000 or «15,000 and putting tha iinal drait togathar. 

S Aitar tha «>40 allllon was ralaasad without nuch oi 
a struggla and you had rajactad tha drait raport on doitastic 
groups, what projacts wara you involvad in iron that tima 
until Juna oi 1987? 

A Hall, wa workad on our--on doing a lot oi rasaarch 
in prapatatlon ior an Aighanistan naws updata talavision 
program. Ha did soma rasaaroh on a maating, plannad to hava 
a maating to disouss Insurganoy wariara. 

Ha hava workad on — wall, wa actually avan baiora 
that. In Daoambar and Novambar, wa workad on a program in 
Garmany to oxaata a monumant thara to iraadom. 

Q Batwaan Fabruary and Juna oi 19877 






402 



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400 
MO 1 
402 
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MOU 
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mo 
m 1 

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^\^ 
ms 

t4l6 
417 
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HIR260000 



UNCUSSlFiEO 



PAGE 



17 



A No, that stattad in Novambci. Ha workad on a 
glasnost piojact to halp aducata tha Anaiican paopla as to 
what glasnost maant and tha vaiious aspacts of bilatatal 
ralations batwaan tha Unitad Statas and tha soviat Union. 
That IS not all of than. I just can't ramambai. 

Q Did you latain any aKpazts on thosa subjacts to do 
that lasaazch for you? 

A I don't racall that wa had any fomal azzanganants 
to do zasaazch foz us othaz than our own staff wozk. 

fl Who on your staff did that kind of rasaazch7 

A Wall, I did, a fallow naaad Xafaal Flocas, who was 
a small consultant to us halpad us out with film, rasaazch 
activitias, and ha had two or thraa paopla working with him 
on that from tima to tima, and I don't know who thay ara 
bacausa I navar saw tham. 

fi What did Dan Kuykandall do for you batwaan tha tima 
that tha tUO million was ralaasad and Juna of 1987? 

A Ha workad with ma frankly as an information sourca. 
Ha has workad with ma almost avazy day of my lifa sinca I 
first angagad him in aithar July or August of 1986. 

Ha hava workad togathar — I call him thraa to four 
tlaas a day, saa him thraa or four timas a waak, and I 
zagazd his vlaws vary, vary highly. 

fi Do you racall a lunchaon In lata Hay or aarly Juna 
of 1987 with Dan Kuykandall and Hrs. Kuykandall, Kris 






403 



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HIR260000 tilllltG r)l«I1i'!dl ii 11 p^ge 18 

Littl«dal« and youtsali and perhaps others? 

A U« hava had thtaa lunchaons this uaak. 
fi I am talking about in May 1987, uhan Kris 
Littladala was prasant? 

* ton will hava to giva ma a lot mora information 
than that. I hava had him and his wifa out to lunch savaral 
timas . 

2 Oo you racall a lunchaon which Kuykandall arranged 
with you and Kris Littladala whan you indicated to Kris 
Littledala that you owed him a debt? 

ns. nORKISON: Is this related to Nicaragua? 
HK. OLZVZK: This is related to this investigation, 
ns. nOKXISOK: He are talking about a time 
*£*■• — even though we are out oi the clearly relevant time 
frame, I hava no idea what this discussion about lunch is 
related to. 

HK. OLIVER: I am asking if he remembers it. 
THE HITNESS' I don't remember pzeeisely. Wa 
interacted so muoh that you are going to have to help me 
more than that. 

BY HI. OLIVER' 
fi Hell, do you recall thanking Kris Littladala for 
something he had done foz you in late Hay of 1987 related to 
this investigation? 

& I guess that it when I made my plea or something. 



^n^Uh 




404 



Q^ 



NAME: 

uso 

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^-vi 473 



HIK260000 lilVIIii mJUIS ilmiJ PAGE 19 

I don't know. I thankad avAcybody {or baing so suppoitiv*. 
I am sorry. I %» not picking up on that. 

Q You raiarrad a fau monants ago to Dan Conrad's ''to 
do'* list which I baliava you wara providad copias oi on a 
regular basis . 

k Ko . I was providad copias ior a long tina and than 
I think in Juna or July oi 1986 I stoppad gatting thait for 
about four or f iva months . 

fi Why? 

X Ha fait that I was not intarastad in what ha was 
planning . 

2 Mara you tailing him what to put on that ''to do'' 
list? 

k I had workad with him a lot on tha subjacts and ha 
was to davalop tha programs > saa paopla. I talkad about 
programs and tha goals oi thosa programs and why wa naadad 
to do thosa programs and ha was as an administrator to halp 
put tham all togathar and go with tham. 

fi Do you racall tailing him to gat soma information 
io£ you about how to astablish an intarnational ioundation? 

1 Oh. wa had diseussad that for a yaar. Oh, yas. 

fi Do you racall a dlsousslon about gatting soma 
adviea from Xoy Gotson about sattlng up an intarnational 
foundation? 

k I don't racall that that Is — I navar haard Roy 




sen tr>C ■ " • : d < k.1^ 



405 



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HIR260000 IIIVIll Mlfalll 81.1/ PAGE 20 
Gotson talk avar. But--I didn't Know that h« was in that 
business aithai. Ko . 

S Do you racall asking Colonal North to discuss, gat 
soma infornation fOE you about how to sat up an 
intatnational foundation? 

A No . 

S Oo you lacall a rafazanca on Dan Conrad's ''to do*' 
list that ramalnad thara ior a pazlod of tima. a zaiaranca-- 

A That was ona of tha pcoblaas . Thay just zanamad 
thara. 

fi About Ollla's •400-k? 

A I ramaabac that. 

fi Do you know what that was. what that rafarzad to? 

A Yas. 

fi What was It? 

A That was--wa had savazal prograas that wa wara 
wozklng on and somaplaca In tha illas I found out that that 
was althaz talking about a sarlas of — I think that was a 
sazlas of aotlon plctuzas wa waza going to maka oz soaa 
pzojaot lika that, and that 0111a was going to ba Involvad 
In nazzatlng It. And I think It was ay Initial budgat foz 
that—wa thought wa could do It with *H00,000. 

Soaaplaca In ouz fllat soaawhaza that has baan 
aKplalnad. I don't know whaza It Is. 

fl Do you know why It would ba zafazzad to as Ollla's 



UNCl«?S!F!EB 



406 



NAHE: 
499 
500 
501 
502 
503 
SOU 
505 
506 
507 
508 
509 
510 
51 1 
512 
513 

5114 

515 
516 
517 
518 
519 
520 
521 
522 
523 




ooiq 



UOO-K? 

A Y*s. bacausa ha was going to b* tha star of tha 
raovla . Wa had mat with Goodnan and askad him if ha could 
halp us do tarroEism iilms to discuss tarzoEism in tha 
Unitad Statas and all ovac tha world, and ua dacidad that wa 
would go to 0111a and ask if ha could avan naztata it. 
Wa thought wa might avan do two. 

2 That Is what Ollia's KOO-k zafarzad to, that film? 

k Films, I think wa waza going to usa Hastazn Goals 
as tha funding souzca. Somaplaca in our filas thaza waza 
thzaa figuzas ona day and I was askad about this and wa 
zasaazchad it. 

Ona of tham wls foz alactions, it was a budgat-typa 
thing. Ona was what I hopad to zaisa foz alactions. Ona 
was foz thasa talavision films, ona amount foz confazancas 
and I think thaza was ona moza amount. 
I am soEzy. I think wa aza-- 

fi You had savazal lazga oontzlbutozs who collactivaly 
waza zasponilbla for mora than half tha funds that waza 
ralsad foz your organizations, and I am rafarring 
spaelfioally to Hrs . Nauington. Hzs. Garwood, May King. Pzad 
Saohar. Bunkaz Hunt, tha Harms, Hr. CNall. Mr. O'Boyla. Mr. 
Brandon, Hr. Drisooll, and Mr. Moopar. 

I think that Mnr^would probably ba tha largast 
contributors. Thay first oontrlbutad to your organization 




mmm 



407 



NAME 
5214 
S2S 
526 
527 
528 
529 
530 
531 
532 
533 
53(4 
535 
536 
537 
538 
539 
5140 
5>41 
5U2 
5143 
514 1( 
5<4S 
5)46 
547 
5>48 



UWLilSSIflED 



PAGE 22 



HIR260000 
through NEPL; is that correct? 
A Ko. 

S Hhat did th«y first contribut* to? 

A H«ll, son* of th*s* paopl* had givan to our 
political activitias bafora. I knaw ovar half thosa paopla 
fron my pravious axparlancas at NCPAC. 

2 It is your racollaotion that thair first 
contributions cama to your Padaral PAC? 

A Soma of thosa paopla I said did giva to our Padaral 
PACs. 

S Do you ranambar whloh onas? 

A Mo. A lot of tha paopla gava to tha Nicaraguan 
Rafugaa Oinnar for tha first tiiia. Soma of thaa gava to-- 

fi Xou aaan tha Nicaragua Rafugaa fund Dinnar in 1985? 

A That is right. 

a That wasn't ona of your organizations? 

A Ko. Soma paopla gava to KEPL in ordar for us to 
giva a grant to tha Nicaraguan organization. Soma had 
cliants that andad up giving to NIPL. 

fi Subsaquantly aftaz tha astabllshaant of NEPL and 
PAC, you astabllshad Santlnal? 

A Yas. 

fi And soaa of thasa paopla gava contributions to 
Santlnal? 

A Yas. Ha navaz had aany contributions to Santlnal. 



UNCUSSifi 



408 



NAHE : 

5^9 

550 
551 
552 
553 
554 
555 
556 
557 
558 
559 
560 
561 
562 
563 
564 
565 
566 
567 
568 
569 
570 
571 
572 
573 



HIR260000 



ONCLASSIflEO 



PAGE 23 



fi Subsequently you s«t up ATAC? 

A 1»3 ■ 

Q And son* of thas* contzibutozs gava monay to ATAC? 

A That is right, although ua sant out hundtads oi 
lattacs to lots of paopla ovaz tha Unitad Statas to try to 
gat nonay. 

HR. OLIVER: I would lika to hava tha capoztaz mazk 
this as Channall Exhibit Ko . 51. 

[Exhibit Ho. 51 was markad foe idantif ication . ) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

fi I ask you to axaalna this doouaant. That is a naito 
datad Dacaabar 2. 1986 to Cliff/Spitz fzoa Stava, ta = 
Goodnan/RAH Films Balanca Dua . ' ' 

fi Do you zamaBbax zaoalvlng this nano , Hz. Channall? 

A No. 

fi Do you Eamambar tha subjaot that was discussad in 
this naiiOEandUB? 

A I don't zaaaMbax raoalving this. This would 
probably ba Moxkad out with Cllii. bacausa ha was working 
dizactly with paying tha PAC bills. 

S Tha sacond paragraph says, ''Ha waza also told to 
hold oii on sanding tha Initial aonay to Goodaan and RAH 
until anoujh iunds had baan 'otaatad' In tha radar al 
account. I ballava this was aoooapllshad via contributions 
froa Spitz, Eric, and ATAC PXD (5.000 aaoh)." 



IMP! im^m 



409 



\ 



NAME: 
57H 
575 
576 
577 
578 
579 
580 
581 
582 
583 
58<4 
585 
586 
587 
588 
589 
590 
591 
-^ 592 



HIR260000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 2U 



593 
5914 
595 
596 
597 
598 



Did you ciaata enough monay in th« r«d«zal account 
thiough contributions itom youzsali, Etic, and ATAC FED? 

A Wall. I 9uass ua did. Wa andad up paying tha 
bills . 

2 Tha naxt paragraph says. ''At this point in tima. 
tha Fadaral nonias uara usad to purchasa critical tima buys, 
not production costs.'* 

Is that your racollaction, that this monay was 
contributad to your Fadaral account to purchasa critical 
tina buys? 

A All tha monay that ua triad to raisa was for tha 
antlra Fadaral political projact, production costs, tlaa 
buys, tha saaa daal. 

fi Did thara coma a tima whan you and Eric Olson 
contributad •5,000 aaeh at approximataly tha sama tiaa-- 

A X don't know H it was tha sama tima. 

fi Into tha Fadaral aooount? 

A I don't know ii It was at tha sama tima. 

a Do you ramambar asking Erlo Olson to contributa 
*5,000 to your Fadaral PAC? 

A Sura. to as many as ha oould actually. 

fi How many did ha contributa to? 

A Just ona . 

fi Has that contribution in connaetlon with a critical 
tima buy ior your talavlslon ads? 



mfiSSB 



410 



NAME: 

599 
600 

60 1 
602 
603 
6014 
605 
606 
607 
608 
609 
610 

61 1 
612 
613 

6114 

615 
616 
517 
618 
619 
620 
621 
622 
623 



HIR260000 



UNCUSSi 



PAGE 



25 



A This contribution would hav* b««n to h«lp us with 
all of our Fadaral activitias. uhatavar ua uata doing. 

S It is your tastimony that it was not in connaction 
with tha critical tima buy at tha tima it was givan? 

A I don't hava any connant on that. I naan this is 
thair wording, so I assuma this contribution was a month or 
two nonths baiora this. I think it would hava had to hava 
baan. I don't raally Know what tha ralavanca is about this, 
frankly . 

I an sorry I am unabla to connact this with — 

fi Wall, tha ralavanca, Hr . Channall, is that thasa 
tina buys wara connaotad with tha Cantral Amarican Fraadom 
Progran dasignad to iniluanoa tha vota of tha Congrass? 

A No, thay waran't at all. Tha Cantral Anarican 
FraadoB Program had andad tha 27th of Juna, whan tha bill 
was passad. Ha got a 12-2 mamo . 

fi Wall, this is consldarably aitar thasa — 

A Thara wara no Cantral Amarican — 

S — talavislon ads. 

A Thara wara no Cantral Amarloan ads on during any 
politloal campaign, so I don't raally know why wa ara doing 
this frankly. 

fi Hall, whan did you run your last talavislon 
commarciala connaotad with tha Cantral Amarican Fraadom 
Program? 



v-U Si, 



411 



NAHE: 
62(4 
625 
626 
627 
628 
629 
630 
631 
632 
633 
63i« 
635 
636 
637 
638 
639 
640 
6X1 
6<42 
6>(3 
6X>4 
6US 
6X6 
6X7 
6X8 



HIR260000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 26 



A It should hava b*«n tha day baiora tha vota 
occuzrad, which would hava baan tha 26th of Juna--tha 25th--I 
wasn't in tha Unitad Statas tha two waaks baiora tha vota 
occurrad. But it had to ba tha last thzaa or four days of 
Juna . 

fi But you also ran a nunbar of ads bafora tha first 
vota, which occurrad in-- 

A March. 

S In March 1986. Do you racall a concartad affort by 
you and your staff to ralsa funds for thosa ads to ba run 
prior to tha vota In March of 1986? 

A Ha startad raising monay for tha ads in Dacambar of 
1985. Ha had startad our tasting program of talavision avan 
bafora that. And wa wara putting togathar aducatlonal ads, 
frankly, as soon as wa oould gat tha monay> baglnning in 
Dacambar of 1985. 

i Hhan did you first run tha ads7 

A I thlnK wa finally got thaa startad in Fabruary or 
March, a whola sarias of than, of 1986. 

S Than you ran thosa ads In ordar to Influanca tha 
vota on fraadoB flghtar aid to tha contras? 

A No. Ha had an organlaatlon to do that. wa ran 
thasa ads to aaka paopla awaxa of tha Isaua of Cantral 
Amarica. 

e You ran thaa In salaotad congzasslonal districts; 




412 



MAKE: 
619 
650 
651 
652 
653 
65>4 
655 
656 
657 
658 
659 
660 
661 
662 
663 
66U 
665 
666 
667 
668 
669 
670 
671 
672 
673 




s 



HIR260000 '■"lULflOlJll lixV PAGE 27 
is that correct? 

A Evazy part oi th« Unit*d Statas Is part of a 
congrasslonal district. Ha ran than in placas whara our 
contributors had givan monay. Ua ran than in tha South and 
Southuast. Ua ran than in Washington. D.C. A fau wa uara 
abla to run in tha North, uhara ua had tha monay. 

3 Is it your tastimony that thasa wara not run in 
salactad congzassional districts? 

A Thay wara run In madia marKats which involvad 
congrasslonal districts, of coursa, and thay ovarlappad. 
a What did Erlo Olson do for your organizations? 

ns. MORRISON: I think wa hava talkad about this 
subjaet azaa baiora, Hz. Ollvar. It Is raally somathing 
that has to do with tha Administration of tha organizations 
that Mr. Channall had. It has nothing to do with Nicaragua. 

HR. OLIVER: I think wa hava alraady astablishad 
that Mr. Olson oontributad tha Baxlmum amount of monay 
allowad by law to tha Fadazal PAC, which was usad to run ads 
in tha Cantzal Amarloan Pzaadom Pzogzam. 
THI WITNESS: No, It was not. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
fi Tha Amazlcan Consazvatlva Tzust was not usad to run 
ads oonnactad with tha Cantzal Amazlcan pzogzam? 
A Not that yaaz at all, no. 



In 1986? 



UNCU-SSinEO 



413 



KAHE: 
67U 
675 
676 
677 
678 
679 
680 
681 
682 
683 
68(( 
685 
686 
687 
688 
689 
690 
691 
692 
693 
6914 
695 
696 
697 
698 



HIR260000 



ONCUSSlFltU 



PAGE 28 



A Ho. In 198--w«H, I don't think it •ver did, as a 
mattax of fact. I don't know why wa ranain confused about 
this . 

2 Wall, I think u« laaain confusad about it. Mi. 
Channall, bacausajha ads that uaza run by tha Goodnan agancy 
dizactly calatad to Kioaiagu* just prior to tha votas in 
1986. uara attributed to tha Anarican Consarvativa Trust. 

A I knou. As I said, wa discussad this last tina I 
was hara. That was part of a billing problan. Ua got than 
paid corractly. Thair filas wara scrawad up in who thay 
wara billing. 

Wa paid than corzaotly. which thay avantually aftar 
many months of not realizing that thay had scrawad up on tha 
filas also said wa had paid tham corractly. 

2 Did you raviaw tha ads bafora thay wara run? 

A In most casas. Soma of tha ads--I raviawad tha 
prototypal. Hhan I was gona in Juna of 1986, soma of tha 
ads that wara produced aftar a prototype I never »jt4^ but I 
had approved the prototypes. 

fi Do you recall the credit line on those ads being 
the Amerloen Conservative Trust? 

A Hell, we ran a variety of ads. The ones in June 
were fxoa Sentinel. The ones in the spring were from 
Sentinel that were lobbying ads and tha ones that were 
education that were information ads were MEPL. 




5' Cv» «.> \ < ■'< S f 

t iJaivtR.'r ' ? V i • * 



'•• -^ J3 i&^,l. 



414 



NAHE' 

699 
700 
701 
702 
703 
70U 
705 
706 
707 
708 
709 
710 
71 1 
712 
713 
714 
715 
716 
717 
718 
719 
720 
721 
722 
723 




HIR260000 'VtriWl^.. ii^if pjQj 29 

Thosa war* th« onas that I appcovad. Ha, I think 
on two diifarant occasions, nada ads with tha wrong ccadit 
lina on than, but ha also coxractad than. 
S You say ha coxiactad than? 

A Yas. Tha sana ad was than nada with tha zight 
czadit lina on it. As I said, ha was coniusad about tha 
billing avan in Dacanbaz oi 1986. I don't think ha was 
coniusadi his bookkaapazs waza confusad. 

HR. OLIVER: Why don't wa taka a fiva-ninuta bzaak. 

[ Brlai racass . ] 

MR. OLIVER: Back on tha caoozd. 

BY HR. OLIVER- 

Hz. Channall. wa waza talking about tha Anarican 
Consazvativa Trust. Duzing tha last sassion oi this 
daposition in tha axhibit which Hz. Fzynan put in tha 
zacord. thara was a documant antitlad tha Anarican 
Consazvativa Tzust Pzaadon rightars TV National Spot 
P z o g z an . 

Ha dlsoussad that doounant, and I would lika to ask 
you to look at that doounant again, if you will, and saa if 
that zaizashas your raoollaction as to what tha purposa of 
tha Anazioan Consazvativa Tzust talavislon ad pzogzan in 
1986 was. 

Doas that zafrash youz nanozy as to what tha 
puzposa of tha Anazican Consazvativa Trust talavision ad 







415 



4\ 



NAME 
72U 
725 
726 
727 
728 
729 
730 
731 
732 
733 
73<4 
735 
736 
737 
738 
739 
7U0 

7m 

7U2 
7M3 
7i«U 
7U5 
7U6 
7147 
7i«8 



HIR260000 



uncussifieu 



PAGE 30 



ptograit in 1986 was? 

A Th*z« was an •ducational pzogran sponsorad by KEPL 
duEing this tima pariod. Thaza was no Anazican Consazvativa 
Tzust pzogzam at tha tima. thay ^ust aada a mistaka, and 
wa-- 

e li you will continua to tutn tha pagas thaza, I 
think you will saa tha story boards foz thosa ads which aza 
containad in that documant. and I-- 

A Thasa wata all mlstakas up hata saying who tha 
cliant was. Tha cliant was actually KEPL. which thay latar 
taalizad . 

2 How much latar did thay raallza that? 

A Hall, thay raalizad that in lata 1986. but thay 
wara gatting paid irom KEPL all tha tima ioz NEPL 
activitias. of which this was ona . And whoavar typad this 
out-- 

fi Do you racall thosa ads baing run? 

A I am sura soma of tham wara run. 

fi Do you zaoall tha oradlt Una on thosa ads baing 
tha Amatloan Consarvatlva Trust? 

A It should not hava baan. It -jqib^. hava baan. It 
would hava baan NEPL. Thara is no political activity hara 
in thasa ads. Thasa ads axa all iniormation and aducation. 

fi Hhy did Adam Goodman pxapaxa a documant for tha 
Amarican Consarvatlva Trust showing tha story boards with 



^ow\« *\'l 



UNCLASS!nEO 



416 



Kknt 

7M9 
750 
751 
752 
7S3 
7514 
755 
756 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 
762 
763 
764 
765 
766 
767 
768 
769 
770 
771 
772 
773 



HIR260000 



UNWSSiie 



PAGE 31 



all tha cradit Unas ioi tha Amaiican Consaivativa Ttust? 

A Bacausa ha was conf usad . 

Q But you did not cocract his coniusion aitat saaing 
that proposal in aatly 1986? 

A Uall, I think tha ads--wa corzactad it, yas. Tha ad 
said NEPL. I don't know whathaz you hava saan thasa ads oc 
not, but I an suza thay say KEPL. Thay aza all aducational 
and iniozmational adt. 
Yas, thay aza. 

S So it is youz tastiaony that tha ads that uaza zun 
pzior to tha vota in 1986 uaza ozaditad to tha Katlonal 
Endownant ioz tha Pzasazvation of Libazty? 

A That is whaza thay should ba . I didn't saa 
avatywhaza thay waca zun. Thay uaza paid ioz by HEPL. This 
was a NEPL pzogzaa, uhioh tha ads show. 

S Was it dasignad to iniluanca tha vota of tha 
Congzass? 

A It was dasignad to inioza tha Aaazican paopla about 
this point oi viaw at a tina whan intazast in this issua was 
zising . 

fi Did you gat an opinion izoa an attoznay as to 
whathaz or not tha National Endowaant ioz tha Pzasazvation 
oi Libazty oollaglally pay ioz thasa ads? 

nS. HORRISONi Hz. Ollvar, I don't think wa ought 
to ba axplozlng thasa oontaots. Thosa aza pzlvllagad 



yNCLM?!F'[0 



417 



NAME: 

7714 
775 
lib 
111 

iia 

779 
780 
781 
782 
783 
78U 
785 
786 
787 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
79U 
795 
796 
797 
798 



HIR260000 



U!^CU3SiRE0 



PIGE 



32 



communications . 

HR. OLIVER: If h* wants to claim attornay-cliant 
piivil«9« on that, ha is fraa to do 50. 

MS. HORRISOM: Or ii his counsal uants to claira 
attornay-cliant privilaga. I uill do so. 

MR. OLIVER: All right. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Tha documant that ua hava baan axaminmg on tha 
Robart Goodman Agancy with tha covar paga, Amarlcan 
Consarvativa Trust, Fraadom fightars pcogtam, national spot 
campaign. 

On tha iirst paga, it zaads, tha purposa of this 
national talavision campaign is to raach thosa votazs across 
tha country whosa inoumbant Congraasman hava shown, by thair 
voting racord, a lack oi rasolva and firm commitmant on tha 
issua of halping tha contzas in Nicaragua. 

Spacif ically , a list of thasa Congrassman and thair 
homa talavlslon aazkats has baan dzaftad on tha basis of 
both thalz ganazal voting tacord bahavior and thair position 
on thraa Kay votas on funding fraadom fightars takan in tha 
spring of 1985. 

By daslgn, this national talavision spot campaign 
Hill bagln appzoNlaataly sIk uaaks baioza tha first vota on 
contra funding is takan in Congzass> pazhaps by tha lattaz 



pazt of nazch. 



mmm 



R94 0-K8-1 fi 



418 



KAHE: 
799 
800 
80 1 
802 
803 
SOU 
805 
806 
807 
808 
809 
810 
811 
812 
813 
81*4 
815 
816 
817 
818 
819 
820 
821 
822 
823 



HIX260000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 33 
And th*n it goas on to dasctib* th* siz* oi th« 



t*l«vision buys and tha gtoss eating points in aach of tha 
six uaaks oi this peogran. And than it says. ''With 
appcoKimataly 1200 gross rating points, votars m thasa 
targatad taXavision narkats would saa ACT's fraadom fightar 
spots an avaraga oi 12 tiaas ovar tha coursa of tha 6-waak 
caitpaign. This will ansura that tha nassaga gats through to 
tha votaxs and ultiaataly to tha aiiactad Congrassnan 
thansalvcs . ' ' 

Ooas that lairash your racollaction about tha 
purposa oi this iraadoa iightazs talavlsion campaign? 

A Tha purposa oi our pzograii was to build intarast at 
a tiaa whan this Issua was eoalng to tha iora. Ha had an 
organization that wa hopad wa oould usa to aiiact tha way 
Congrassaan votad on this issua. 

Ha had--as you Know, in our ads, wa had no mantion 
whatsoavar oi any bill, nor did wa ask tha paopla in thasa 
ads to do anything axeapt to ba Inioraad. And this is all 
wall within ouz IIS allowanoa to Iniora and aducata tha 
Aaarican paopla. 

Hhan you aaka a talavlsion ad. tha purposa in tha 
ad Is tha ona that hU going to hava tha lapaet, ii any. and 
H« had an organization oallad Santlnal whara wa wara going 
to polntadly suggast that political action on a placa oi 
lagislatlon ba takan aithaz by Congzassaan oz eitlzans. 




^i^V 



419 



HknZ< HIXZSOOOO 



UNCUSSIfiEO 



not 



314 



82(4 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 



W« ran thasa television ads. by th« way, aitai th* 
bill was daiaatad also. Thasa ads did not stop ^ust with 
tha ilcst daiaat. 

S Did thay stop uith tha sacond vota in Juna? 

A Thay all stoppad with tha sacond vota, and than wa 
produced ona for alaction night. 

fi For alaction nlght--Hhich alaction? 

k 1986. Ha had an iniomational ad on Nicaragua on 
alaction night. 



420 



MAKE: HIR260000 



833 
8314 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
8140 
8U1 
8142 
8143 
8>4I4 
8US 
8<46 
8>47 
8M8 
8149 
85 U 
851 
852 
853 
85U 
855 
856 
857 



RPTS LYOA 
DCHN DANIELS 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 



M 1 : IS p.B. 1 

2 Was that d«sign*d to Iniluanc* th« •laction? 

A Ko, it cam* on aitaz tha polls waza closad. It was 
bacausa avarybody was watching talavision, wa thought, ua 
hopad, actually. It cama on at 9=00 o'clock. 

fi So thasa ads on tha icaadom fightats uara run 
during tha pariod up until tha final vota had baan takan on 
aid to tha contzas with tha axcaption oi ona ad run on 
alaction night; corract? 

A Oii and on, that would ba cozzact. 

2 Thay waza run in congzassional districts that wara 
providad to you by Rich Hillar, Dan KuyKandall, and Pann 
Kaitbla? 

A Sonawhaza. Host waza run whara our contributor 
wantad to saa tha ads. 

a That would ba Austin. Taxas and Hartford-Kaw Havan: 
corract? 

A Also Hiami. 

fi That was for tha banafit of Hzs. Julius Piarca in 
niaai and Hrs . Barbara Xawington in Connacticut? 

A Right. 

S And in Austin, Taxas . Hrs. Garwood? 

A That is right. 



m 



f^!r'.r?> 



421 



NAME' 
858 
859 
860 

86 1 
862 
863 
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\^^ 



2 But tha othais u«ia zun in tazgatcd congrassional 
districts that u*za bas«d on tha pzavious voting racord of 
tha Congrassman uhosa dlstzicts waza affactad by thosa nadia 
narkats; corract? 

A Only partially corzact. As I told you tha othaz 
day. ouz dacision to placa tha ads in tha vazious nadia 
nazKats was basad on a vaziaty of inioritation . Tha fact 
that thasa Congrassman had baan undaeldad fzoa tima to tma 
on tha Cantzal Amarlca issua was dafinltaly why wa put tha 
ads on tha air, but by a long shot not tha only raason. 

As you will nota. li you coapara both tha list of 
Congrassman who qualiflad for that, thara wara many of tham 
whara wa did not placa ads at all. 

S Did ATAC run ads in Maryland in 1986, tha subject 
of which was Nicaragua? 

A Ko. 

fi Hhat ads did ATAC run in Maryland in 1986? 

ns. nOXKZSON' Tha last quastion appaarad to ba 
ralavant. 

BY nx. OLZVBX' 

9 Hara tha ads run in Maryland ralatad to Linda 
Chavaz in any way? 

MS. HOBXISOK' That Is irralavant. 
BY HI. OLIVEK: 

a Did Linda Chavax assist you with your briafs at tha 



LASS'f 



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NAME: 
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HI11260000 



UNCIiSS 



PAGE 



37 



Whita HousA in 1985 and 1986? 

A It was har oiiica that gava our organization 
pezmission to hava two briaiings. 

S Did Olivaz Morth avar conmunicata to you a dasiza 
on tha part of Linda Chavaz to discontinua tha ads that you 
wara running in Maryland? 

ns. nORKISON: Sana thing, it is irralavant. Tha 
ads had nothing to do with Nicaragua. 

HR. OLIVEIl: I think Linda Chavaz and Olivar North 
had lots to do with Nicaragua. Ara you diracting tha 
witnass not to answar tha quastion? 

ns. nOKRISON: Yas, insofar as it ralatas to ads 
that Mr. Channall had nothing to do with. 
BY HR. OLIVER' 
fi Hhan did you first maat Linda Chavaz? 
A I guass I mat har in aarly 1986. 
fi Hhat was tha occasion of your aaating with Linda 



Chavaz? 
A 
fi 
A 



I was at soma brlafing at tha Hhita Housa . 

Did it ralata to Nioarmgu&T 

I don't ramaabar that it did or didn't. Sha was in 
ohaxga oi Public Liaison at tha Hhita Housa. As I tastifiad 
aazllar> I was invitad to at laast fiva dliiarant typas of 
briafings at tha Hhita Housa. Z do racall saaing har at at 
laast two Nicaragua briafings in Room USD at soita largar 



423 



KAHE 
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909 
9 10 
9 1 1 
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9 1U 
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HIR260000 



ONCLASSIflEfl 



PAGE 



38 



briefings. I don't know at which on*, which on* was th« 
iiist on* whaia I nat hat. 

2 Did sha assist you with your briafings on Nicaragua 
for your contributors? 

A Sha may hava introducad or walcomad us to tha Whita 
House ona or twice. That is all sha would hava ever done, 
as head of Public Liaison. 

fi Did you ever discuss with Linda Chav«; her race for 
tha Senate in Maryland in 1986? 

ns. nORRISON: Objaotlon, irrelevant. 

HR. OLIVER: The ralavanc* is that Linda Chavez was 
the Director of Public Liaison at the Hhlte House and 
facilitated the briefings for the contributors to Hr . 
Channell's organizations in 1986. I aa trying to determine 
how that relationship related to moneys that were spent from 
those contributors, television ads related to Hrs . Chavez. 

NS. nORRISOKi All of which has nothing to do with 
the contras. 

MR. OLIVER: I think the aonay that was raised 
after the Hhita House briefings by tha contributors who were 
briefed there related directly to Nicaragua. I Think that 
has bean wall established. 

ns . nORRISOK: Ha hava discussed those briefings in 
detail. 

HR. OLIVER: I aa talking about tha relevance of my 



w& 






424 



NAME : 
933 
93U 
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9«»7 
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952 
953 
9SU 
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956 
957 



mum 



question . 

ns . nORRISON: nr. 01iv«r, u« don't sa« any 
ralavanc* to what happanad with raspact to Mrs. Chavaz 
unialatad to Nicaragua as baing nada lalavant by tha fact 
that sha appaiantly appaarad at a biiafing or two to 
introduca tha ultimata spaakar on Nicaragua. It doas not 
provida any ralavanca to subsaquant contacts unralatad to 
Nicaragua that Hz. Channall nay or nay not hava had with 
Mrs. Chavaz or anybody alsa. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q In 1985 and 1986, you wara angagad in an aiiort to 
try to iniluanca tha congrassional vota on Nicaragua: is 
that corract? 

A Fron tin* to tiee . 

fi Hara you awaza oi tha rola that Congrassnan nika 
Barnas playad in tha Congrass that ralatad to aid to tha 
fraadon iightazs? 

A Hall> I had an inaga that ha was a major spokasnan 
against that aiiort. I don't know avarything ha did. but-- 

S You knaw that ha was a cantral playar in tha aiiort 
to stop iundlng ior tha contzas; is that corract? 

A Hall, ha was a vary vocal critic, ona oi many. 

fi Did you know that ha was Chairman oi tha 
Subcommittaa on Latin Amazlea through which that lagislation 
had to pass? 




425 



NAMI : 

958 

959 
960 
96 1 
962 
963 
96(( 
965 
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974 
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976 
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978 
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982 




HIR260000y|)jS^LHOi)sriiiy "* = ' '' 

A I thought it was anothat committac. I didn't Know 

that was it. I thought it was th« coimitta* on th« Wastern 
Hamsphara or somathing. 

e Wall, that is tha sana thing, basically. 

A I raally wasn't. It is tha sana thing? 

S Yes. Thay changa tha namas oi thasa subcomnitteas 
fioit tiraa to tina and Congrass to Congiass, but you ware 
awaza that ha was tha chairman oi a subcommittaa that dealt 
with contta funding? 

A I an not suta I was awaza that ha was a chairnan, 
but I Knaw ha was an inpoztant manbaz on a connittaa that 
was dealing with Latin America and possibly contza iunding, 
yes. 

Q Has ha tha cantzal focus of tha ads that ware run 
in tha Washington, D.C. madia market prior to tha votes m 
1986? 

A Mo. Everything that wa ran in Washington 
had — Washington, as you know, is the political center of the 
United States and all of the political press sits here and 
the political bureauozeoy sits heze, the President of the 
United States sits here. Our goal in putting on ads anytime 
in Washington, D.C. is to affect and impress and to inform 
and to become known to all of those groups. 

Q When we did our Sentinel ads focusing on 
Congressmen, one of the media mmzKets was Washington, D.C. 



ONCUSSIFJEO 



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SIFIEfl •... 



HIR260000 

b«causa Hika Bainas' congz«ssional district is raachad by 
Washington, DC. nadia. So it would hava baan natural as 
ona of tha paopla ua did Santinal work on that wa would hava 
to put our ads in Washington to raach Hika Barnas' 
congrassional district. 

RPTS LYDA 
DCMK DAHIELS 

Q Has tha purpose of thosa ads to raach Hika Barnas' 
congrassional district? 

A Tha Santinal ads wara to raach Hika Barnas as wall 
as again always in Washington wa want to show avarybody 
involvad in politics what wa wara doing. It is a universal 
dasira. avarybody trias to do it. That is why last yaar, a 
waak bafora tha izaadom flghtar vota, thara wara aight 
diifarant groups running ads in Washington. D.C.. tha 
largast numbar oi groups running ads anywhara in tha Unitad 
Statas. Thay wara all baing run in Washington, D.C. It is 
not a saezat why you run tha ads in Washington. 

fi Was nika Baznas tha cantzal ioous oi why you ran 
tha ads in Washington. D.C? 

X Tha Santinal ad was, oi coursa. dlractly ralavant 
to hla. Our Santinal ads callad on hla to raconsidar his 
vota and support tha Prasidant's laglslatlon. 

e Old ha do that? 

k No. zagzattably. h« did not. 



UNCUSSiFffD 



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Hknz- 

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10 m 

101S 
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HIR260000 



UNCLASSIREO 



PAGE 142 



fi Did you lun talavision ads in Haiyland in 1986, thi 
purposa of which was to hava an inpact on tha flika Bainas 
Sanata laca? 

ns . nORRISOK: Objaction, ior all tha issuas 
stated . 

HR. OLIVER: I think wa hava alraady established 
that Hike Barnes was tha object oi television ads put on m 
his district by Mr. Channell. We have already established 
that he was a central figure in tha Congress on aid to the 
contras. I think that the question is quite relevant. 

ns . nORRISOK: Ue disagree. Tha political issues 
that nay or may not have been Involved did not relate to the 
contra funding. 

MR. OLIVER: Counsel, if there was an effort by Mr. 
Channell to naka an exanple of Mr. Barnes by causing his 
defeat because he was an opponent of freedom fighter aid, I 
think it is quite relevant to this investigation. 

HS. nORRISOK' It doesn't hava anything to do with 
contra aid. 

HK. OLIVER: I think Hike Baznas had a lot to do 
with contra aid. that is well established. 

HS. nORRISOM: Hhy someone chose to support or not 
support him In a political election whioh had nothing to do 
with freedom fighter aid does not come within the scope of 
this investigation. 




428 



NAME: 

1033 
103U 
1035 
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1037 
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1039 
lOUO 

lom 

10((2 
10U3 
lOUM 
lOUS 
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10U7 
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10149 
10S0 
1051 
1052 
1053 
lOSU 
1055 
1056 
1057 



HIR260000 



yNWSSffl 



PAGE 



43 



MR. OlIVER' I think that trying to axpand noney 
contributed by individuals who war* briafad at tha Uhita 
Housa at tha raquast of Mr. Channall's organization, and who 
contributad nonay to assist tha contras. both for uaapons 
and to iniluanca tha vota and in Congrass. that thosa 
individuals uara also asKad to contribute monay to dafaat 
Mika Barnas bacausa of his opposition to contra aid I think 
that is parfactly ralavant to this Invastigation. 

ns . MORRISON: ua disagraa . Why somaona choosas to 
support or not support a political candidate is not relevant 
to contra aid and how Hz. Channall was involved in assisting 
tha contras . 

MR. OLIVER: It is ralavant if tha purpose of the 
expenditures was because of tha Congressman's opposition to 
freedom fighter aid. 

ns. HORRISON: He disagree. 

MR. OLIVER: Are you dizaotlng the witness not to 
answer? 

HS. nORRISON> I am. 

nt. OLIVER: X Hill ask tha questions on the record 
and you may direct tha witnaas not to answer. but I would 
Ilka to lay what I believe is a foundation for the relevance 
of Hike Barnes to this invastigation. 

BY HR. OLIVER: 
fi Mr. Channall, did tha suboontzaotozs referred to 



ONWSSlrlD 



429 



UNCI/ISSIREO 



KAHE- 
1058 
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HIR260000 



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m* 



ftarliar in youz lattar to Ht . Hillar conduct activities on 
your bahali dasignad to iniluanca ha vota in Congzass? 

A Kill you rastata that? 

e Waza tha subcontzactozs that you zafazzad to in tha 
earliez lattaz to nz . nillaz. spaciiically Hz. Lichtanstam. 
Mzs . Fzasaz, Mz . Kanbla, Hz. Canazon. and Nz . Kuykandall, 
waza thaiz activities cazziad out on youz bahali designed to 
influence the vota in Congzass in 1986 on aid to tha freedom 
f ightezs? 

A Soma of those people, all of those people at one 
tine uozked on tha infozmation program. Latez on, some of 
those people worked on a lobbying program. So we would have 
to take eacA one of them, I think. 

S Hy question is whether or not their activities on 
your behalf ware designed to influence the vote in Congress? 

A If they were working with Sentinel of course, and if 
they were working with the HEPL Infozmation ads, they weze 
working on an Information program. 

e Has Jaok Llohtansteln paid by Sentinel? 

A I don't know. 

Q Hera Jack Lictensteln's activities on your behalf 
dasigned to influence the vote in the Congress? 

A He had a program to get people to write their 
Congressmen on the issue of Klearagua and to support the 
President on Micaragu*. I don't know exactly how many 



430 



KAME : 
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^n 



HIR260000 " PAGE US 

lattars oc I cannot rananbar axactly what tha latteis said. 
I know that wa had hirad hin to maka an iiipact to tall tha 
Congtassman what paopla ialt. but I don't know whathar that 
was saying to vota for an issua ot to support tha Piasidant. 

I can't axactly ramambar how tha lattars wera 
writtan. 

S In tha axhibit antarad by Hr . Fryman at an aarlier 
tina, thara is a mamorandun to you from Jack Lichtanstain. 
tha subjact oi which is congrassional survays on contra aid 
vota, datad Hay 3, 1986. I will ask you to axanina that 
lattar . 

A I raquastad that. 

fi Will you tall na whathar or not that rairashas your 
racollaction as to whathar or not Hr . Lichtanstain' s 
activitias wara dasignad to influanca tha vota on contra aid 
in tha Congrass. 

A This would Indicata. again I don't know axactly 
what lattars ha is raiarring to. that soaa of thasa paopla 
wara trying to support tha Prasidant't viaw. 

AS I say> I would naad to saa tha lattars. I don't 
zaaasbar whathar NEPL paid his or Santinal paid him. 

fi Hara tha ads that wara paid for by PRODEHCA through 
a grant izom your organization dasignad to Iniluanca tha 
contra vota in tha Congrass? 

A I can't ramambar what that ad said. Tha ona thing 




Oijd ?LLf 



431 



KAME ■ 
1 108 
1 109 
1110 
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HIR260000 



ONCUSSIfl 



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u 



PAGE 



U6 



I can ranambai is that Mr. Kambla uantad to publish his 
group's viaw on tha fiaadon fightaz aid discussion. He 
wanted to gat this out. 

You would hava to ask him whathar ha fait that that 
was going to. I don't lacall frankly that ha nantionad in 
tha ad tha Congtassnan. You would hava to asK hin. I don't 
think that is what it was for. 

Our support was basad upon tha fact that thay 
uantad to coaa out and say thay supportad tha Prasidant and 
this was vary unusual for than. 

I don't know tha total history of tha group aithar. 
but thara wara lots of paopla who had navar spokan bafora on 
this issua and thay wantad to spaak to this issua of tha 
Prasidant's position on Nicaragua. 

I am sorry, I cannot rananbar. It was a vary long 
ad, and I can't ranambar axactly what it said. 

2 Oo you zanaabar tha ad balng run tha day of or tha 
day bafoza tha vota on contra aid? 

A I don't raaaabaz whan it was run. I thought it was 
actually run auch aarliar than that, but — I don't racall 
that. I raaaabar Mr. Kaabla talking about all tha paopla 
who wara going to saa this aassaga. That was a vary 
important thing to him, to hava all thasa paopla sign tha 
nassaga . 

e Hhy would you giva him a grant to convay this 



i^nuissmij 



432 



KAHE' 
1 133 
1 13<4 
1 IBS 
1 136 
1 137 
1138 
1 139 

1 mo 

1141 

1 m2 

1 1M3 

1 mu 
1 ms 
1 mfi 
1 m? 
1 ms 

1 1i»9 
1 1S0 
1 1S1 
1 152 
1153 
1 15U 
1 155 
1 156 
1 157 



messaga through a talavision ad? Hhy didn't you just do xt 
youxsttii? 

A I am sorry, you uill hav* to ask that again. I 
didn't gat what you said. 

fi Why uould you giv* Nr . Kembla monay to run 
talavision ads to convay this? Why wouldn't you do it 
yoursali ? 

A Ha didn't run talavision ada . 

Q Nawspapar ads. 

A Ha raprasantad part of what I was hoping would 
bacoaa.a bipartisan support ior tha PrasidantjOn thasa 
issuas. He obviously raprasantad a group of paopla who had 
haratoiora not nada thamsalvas knowiv on this issua. 

Again. I don't iolloM Mhat Kls group doas , but they 
cartainly wara not paopla that I wwa daaling with or had tha 
opportunity to maat. 

By publishing his ads, wa wara continuing to 
broadan tha basa oi support ior tha Prasldant. I do baliava 
that nany oi tha paopla who workad with hia ara Damocrats 
and that would indaad halp us broadan tha basa oi support. 

Ht. OLIVFR: Ua hava a salact conmlttaa naating m 
15 Blnutas. I don't think thara is any naad to ask any 
iutthax quastlons and I don't hava any iuzthar quastions. 

Hr . Buck, ii you can ilnlsh your quastions in 10 or 
15 minutas, wa can procaad noM. 



*^%ffl 



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NAnc 
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116 1 
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1171 
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UNCLASSlFi 



HIR260000 IBIMl.l U \J%1S II SI PAGE US 

KR. BUCK: Off th* racoid. 

(Discussion oii th« racord.l 

HR. BUCK: On rha tacotd. 

EXAMIMiTIOH OK BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COHHITTEE 

BY MR. BUCK: 
S Mr. Channall, I hav* a transczipt of an int«zvieu 
batwaan Tad Koppal and Jana HcLaughlin and I want to ask 
your opinion on it. 

''Koppal: Hiss HcLaughlln, which caiia first, tha 
chickan or tha agg? Did tha Hhita Housa cona to Carl 
Channall and say, 'Ha ara in daap troubla hara, wa naad 
itonay to ba ralsad,' or did Channall go to tha Uhita Housa 
and said, 'Hay, wa aza in tzoublat you can raisa nonay?''' 

Sha answarad : ''I don't knoM Mhich ecna first. I 
joinad tha organization In 1986.'* 

Can you tall ma Mhich caaa first? 
A Naithar. 

fi Why don't you aiiplaln that. 

A Vary quickly, I callad tha Hhita Housa in narch of 
1985 and askad tha only parson I knaw at tha Hhita Housa, 
his assistant in tha political dapartnant, if thara was 
anything that ay llttla naw organization could do to halp 
tha Prasldant on tha issua with tha fraadoa flghtars in 
Xiearagua. 

Ha navar mantlonad aonay bacausa I had no idaa 



iiNWSSiflE 



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NAHE: 
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HIR260000 ^'^XfimnUQi^ if ^^ PAGE U9 

what, ii anything, could b« dona or ii th« Whit* Housa was 
ualcoming th« support or ii th* Hhita Hous* carad about na 
or uantad any group outsida tha Whita Housa to do anything 
at all. 

I was totally ignorant of what tha Whita Housa 
stratagy and goals wara. I callad sinply to find out li 
thay wara going to naad support, what typa oi support that 
might ba . 

So thara was no chickan or agg. Wa wara discussing 
vagatablas . 

fi Is it feir to say that you aada tha first contact 
offaring your sarvicas and tha ralationship built iron 
thara? 

A Yas. 

Q Graw, ii I aay say so? 

A Yaa. 

S you mantlonad baiora that, baiora today, that aight 
groups wara running ads in Washington, D.C. baiora tha 
contra vota. wara all thosa groups in iavor oi aid to tha 
contras? 

A yas. Thara aay hava baan many mora around tha 
country, but I would not hava Known. 

e Could you briaily axplain your Knowladga oi tha 
groups in tha country that wara running ads or wara raising 
iunds to support tha Sandinista Govarnmant or Communist 



vmss 



wifj. 



435 



MAMC 

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ONCLASSlfltl '- 



HIR260000 tllVIII ««J^y || y PAGE 50 

zabals in C«ntzal Anazica? 

A I truly don't recall th« namas of thasa groups. I 
raally havan't lookad at this for six or aight months. I 
raad our raport onca which listad a lot of than, but I hava 
not aven figurad out whathar tha groups that I hava raad 
about that uara doing cartain lobbying wara involvad in tha 
talevision ads. I would hava to go back and chack that and 
chack with soma othar paopla to find out which groups were 
doing this. 

e You wara awaza of groups that wara raising funds in 
opposition to tha afforts you waza raising funds for. uara 
you not? 

A On a ganaral-purposa than*, absolutaly. sura. 

e Hould you say that Colonal North's rola in your 
fund-raising schama was on* of informad, informer or a 
solicitor or something else? 

A Hell, Colonel North, of course, led some of the 
briefings. He did Inform people of what was going on far 
beyond ay knowledge, of course. He discussed with various 
contributors the needs of the freedom fighters. In soma 
respects. I didn't know about these needs until we had mat 
with him. So he had multiple zoles in which he acted. 

9 Could you briefly list those multiple roles? 

A Well, he also acted as a spokesman for the White 
House's temperament, on what the White House felt about what 



*A«ffifi 



436 



MAME' 
1233 
1234 
1235 
1236 
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12U1 
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12143 
12>4>4 
12(45 
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PAGE 



51 



tha Communists w«ia doing in Cantial Amatica. That would 
covai at laast thtaa ma joe approachas that ha would hava . 

Ha may hava dona sonathing alsa with othais 
bacausa, as wa all know, ha said that ha btiaiad 100-soma 
groups last yaar. Ha mat with our group just thraa times 
and mat with our paopla only aight or tan timas privataly. 

So wa hava 100-soma othar maatings whara ha 
briafad. So I don't Know what alsa ha did. 

fi In your schama oi things, was ha a iund-raisar? 

A To tha dagraa that tha Prasidant of tha Unltad 
Statas is an inspiration, ha indaad was an inspiration. You 
ara asking a quastion that raally raqulras aithar an 
axtzamaly spacifio answar. ''Yas. this is how ha raisad tha 
monay.'* or a vary ganaral answar about how ha usad his rola 
to ancouraga us. to anoouraga ma to continua to work, to 
ancouraga our paopla. to continua to hava coniidanca in what 
wa wara doing and. tharaioza. giva monay. 

That is just a vary diiilcult quastion. As ha did 
say on Innumarabla occasions to at laast six or aight 
contributors. ''As you know. I cannot ask for monay.'' At 
tha and oi savaral maatings whan ha would laava. ha would 
say. ''As you know. I cannot ask you ioz monay.'' 

fi A« a iundzalsaz. Hz. Channall. how do you maasura 
succass? 

A Tarzy Dolan onea said to aa. **Splta. you ara as 




.n? 



437 



12S8 
12S9 
1260 
126 1 
1262 
1263 
12614 
1265 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 
1271 
1272 
1273 
1271* 
1275 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 



HIR260000 IIIVIll MB^a^iririj PAGE 52 

good as your last fund-iaising success and that battar hava 
baan 10 minutas ago.'* 

That is ona ciltarion. oi coursa. A ganaral who 
has not won any battlas is not considazad a vary good 
genezal . 

In tha fund-raising profassion, you hava to create 
a program that will, through your efforts, create interest 
and a mechanisa where this interest can result in at least 
ongoing support for the project you wish to realize. 

I have felt that the support for certain issues 
requires the raising of a certain aaount of money if the 
program is large enough and if I come close to raising that 
amount of money in support of a pcogcam which I have 
conceived which will help--reoently we have supported 
programs that the President has been very vocal about 
supporting/ if we are able to help him with his policies in 
a way that he is very proud of what we have done, I have 
considered that a success. 

In some instances, we have been able to raise 
480,000 to «100,000 for 2 oz 3 targeted messages in support 
of what he has done. that is not much money, but that was 
ouz goal and we have executed that with the type of 
exoellenoe that I felt is worthy of these peoples' 
contributions. I consider that a success. 

On the other hand, I believe that an effort like 



MNWSSIfiEO 



438 



NAME: 
1283 
12814 
1285 
1286 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
1294 
1295 
1296 
1297 
1298 
1299 
1300 
1301 
1302 
1303 
13014 
1305 
1306 
1307 



UNCLASSI 



HIR260000 IIIUII II X XBIfir' II PAGE S3 
tha fiaadom fightai aducationaJ. tal«vision nassagas laquitad 
axpandituxas of ovar «70 million a yaar to aducata tha 
Araarican paopla . Ua did not touch tha suciaca of that in 
our short pcogran. 

So what wa did uas to soma dagzaa succassful. but 
tha naad to aducata tha Amarican paopla about what communism 
is doing in Latin Amarica and uhat its goals ara ragazding 
us raquizas a vast amount of monay that I hava not baan able 
to bagun to raisa. 

fi Ganarically. for fund-raising organizations, uhat 
is tha bottom Una maasura of sucoass? 

A Tha raason uhy I hasitata in answaring that is 
bacausa so many fund-raising aspacts of organizations allow 
failura to ba accaptabla. 

As you Know, nona of my organizations hava avar 
gona into dabt. Wa hava told paopla that wa would not go 
into dabt undaz any circumstancaa . If tha support for our 
af forts was not thara. wa would not go into dabt. That is 
ona of my maasuras of succass. 

Paopla can go out to caztain dlraot-mail firms and 
borrow millions of dollars and gat lattars and gat aso.OOO 
back and call it a sucoass. X do not. 

Kalslng anough monay to maKa tha souzoas faal that 
thay hava had soma typa of impact on thalr goal is probably 
tha maasuza of succass. 




439 



oo«rkJj p' 



Hkni- HIR260000 

1308 I an not trying to ba obtus* about this. I an 

1309 saying I don't hava^tha fund-taisats of tha Unitad Statas 

1310 bahind aa to ansuac that quastion. But I can only tall you 

1311 about my own organizations. 

'312 2 Did you hira Mr. Conrad for his knouladga of tha 

1313 politics surrounding tha issuas that you uara concarnad 

13114 about? 

1315 k No. 

1316 2 Did you hira hia for his fund-raising knowladga? 
13 17 A I hirad him for what wa call institutional and 

1318 adainistrativa fund-raising abilltias; that is an aspact of 

1319 fund-raising I faal I hava no aKpartisa ^ at all and Z 

1320 dasparataly naadad to laarn. 

132 1 As you know, ha has Morkad just with institutions 

1322 in fund-raising uhacaas I hava navar uorkad with an 

1323 institution. 

132^4 fi Old you aaka alaborata aifoxts to concaal your fund- 

1325 raising aotlvltlas? 

1326 A No. Evary tlaa I hava avar dona somathing in ay 

1327 organizations, I hava as many prass ooniatancas as Z was 

1328 allowad to hava. Tha prass. of oouxsa. navar showad up. 

1329 Z hava aallad tha rasults of our prograas and any 

1330 lattax th« rxasldant of tha Unitad Statas has baan kind 

1331 anough to sand ■• . aailad to thousands of paopla and told 

1332 thaa of tha succass wa hava baan aaklng on particular 



wussife 



440 



NAME ' 
1333 
1334 
133S 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13140 
1341 
1342 
1343 
1344 
1345 
1346 
1347 
1348 
1349 
1350 
1351 
1352 
1353 
1354 
1355 
1356 
1357 



HIR260000 



pro:acts 



UNCUSS 






Thtt act oi concaalnent has frankly not antarad ny 
raind . 

fi It saans to rea that is a contradiction in tarns to 
ba abla to concaal tha activitias. Isn't it tha point of 
tha fund-raising activitias to publiciza? 

A That is ona purposa. yas. Lat's say you uara going 
to raisa nonay to buy Harvard Univarsity a naw nadical 
building and you hava tan paopla you aza going to saa . Tha 
purposa of that is not to publlciza. It Is sinply to find 
tha right paopla and go talk to tham. 

Hhan you hava a public aducatlon campaign tha idaa 
is to gat nora and mora paopla iniormad and anthuslastic and 
nayba thay will halp. 

Thara ara vazlatias of purposas. Alaost avary 
political organization I know of In Hashington has at ona 
tiaa or anothar had a fund-raising piojact to build a 
building. But that is not a nationally racognizad issua. 
Thay noraally go to thair top donors and hava a dlnnar and 
ask for iiajor capital donation. That Is not publicizad, but 
It is an iapoztant fund-raising activity. 

a In tha madia thara waza soma raports that thara 
wara slnlstar motlvas bahlnd tha Toys aooount. Hould you 
aKplain tha ambiguity oi tha stakas that suzzoundad tha Toys 



account? 



*%% 



441 



HAnr ■ 

1358 
1359 
1360 
1 36 1 
1362 
1363 
13614 
1365 
1366 
1367 
1368 
1369 
1370 
137 1 
1372 
1373 
137M 
1375 
1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 



HrR260000 



UNCUSSIFifO 



PAGE 56 



L^u^ 




A Tha Toys account, which hXs inaccurately,, th« Toys 
uas not an account, it was a ladgai. inaccutataly placed 
sons contributions undar its haading, uas considarad by soma 
members of our staff as to be an exciting, ronantic, secret 
account 3ust for military hardware. 

The origin of this account is ona where I was 
trying to raise a certain anount of money specifically for 
Adolfo Calero's refugee families. Ue were trying to 
segregate all that money for him in one place, not to be 
miKed in any other part of our foundation activities. 

After that fund-raising event passed, I then 
decided X would use that ledger for other special projects 
where I did not want general contributions to MEPL 
ceuiingled with these special projects. 



> 



It did not work out that way. That was the idea. 

^ 

There were some fund-raisers who thought this was a very 
exciting ledger entry and made up incredible tales about it. 

fi Did Colonel Korth asK you to refer to him as Green? 

A Ko. 

fi By raferzlng to Colonal Kozth as Green, who were 
you trying to hid his name from, if you were? 

A I was not trying to hide his name. I never 
instructed my staff to hide his name from anybody. we were 
introduced to him in conversation long before we met him as 
Green. I think there were other nicknames that people had 




442 



KAME: 
1383 
138U 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
139U 
1395 
1396 
1397 
1398 
1399 

moo 
moi 
moa 

1U03 

mou 

IKOS 
1M06 
1407 




HIR260000 IIJiH'l «V"VSL?I iJJ PAGE 57 
for hm. --' -w* J I, .^,«,4 

Nlcknanas w«ra pickad up by peopla. That was patt 
of tha aKCltamant of our paopla calling hin Graan. In soma 
lettars zacaivad from contributozs , ha was rafazrad to as 
Colonal Nozth and Gzaen and our spaciai parson or whatavar. 
It was navar sinistar. It was for a lot of paopla :u5t fun 
and part of tha hypa of this issua. 

9 Similar to tha Toys account again? 

A Not naarly as pramaditatad . To this day, I hava no 
idaa why ha was nicknanad Graan. I hava navar baan told. I 
thought it was sort of crazy to bagin with so X navar askad. 

fi Did you sand nonay to IBC, Incorporatad , I maan 
NEPL and your organizations, so that tha nonay could not ba 
tracad? 

A No . Wa had plannad to hava a raport fron ISC at 
tha and of 1986 ancompassing our activltias in lata 1985 and 
1986 whara all of tha monay was to ba laid out and what it 
want to. I was unauaza that soaa of this nonay was going to 
sacrat accounts, for instanca, in Swltzailand. X did not 
know that. Only aftar this crisis davalopad was I infornad 
that whan I got our raport at tha and of tha yaar I would 
notlca that sona of this nonay want out of tha country to 
accounts in Sultzarland which X had navar baan told of 
baf ora . 

fi You nantionad aarliar that you had talkad with Hr . 



Mmm^ 



443 



HIR260000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE S8 



NAME ■ 

1408 Dolan about having NCPAC parsonalizad around an individual 

1409 as a fund-raising tachniqua or so»*thing to do with a fund- 

1410 raising organization. I an wondering whathar you considered 

1411 personalizing NEPL around an individual and if so, what 

1412 individual and why? 

1413 A I really had not thought about that. 

I'^l'* 2 How about the Central Anerican freedom program' 

14 IS A No. 

1'416 2 What was the purpose of receiving a latter from 

1417 Adolfo Calero recognizing your organization or a latter from 

1418 Oliver North or a latter from Ronald Reagan thanking your 

1419 organization for its efforts? 

1*^20 A Just that. Whan we recaived these appreciations, 

142 1 we would sand them on imaadlataly to all of the people who 

1422 had been helpful. I have always believed that one of the 

1423 major problems with fund-raising in the United States is 

1424 that someone will receive a grant from somebody and 

1425 immediately forget tham and say, ''We have gotten money from 

1426 that parson, let's go on to the next parson.'* I have never 

1427 believed in that. 

1428 So I have bean meticulous in soliciting thank-you 

1429 letters izou everyone who has bean affected by any work we 

1430 have avat dona so you will saa in our files a large number 

1431 oi thank-you letters from persons and organizations who we 

1432 have had the ability to halp. 



n 







444 



1433 
m3U 
11435 
m36 
11437 
11438 
1439 
1440 
1441 
1442 
1443 
1444 
1445 
1446 
1 447 
1448 
1449 
1450 
1451 
1452 
1453 
1454 
1455 
1456 
1457 



HIR260000 



muiM 



PAGE 59 



2 So sanding thos* lattars on to your contributors is 
a way for you to show your appraciation and tha othar 
individual's appreciation and not a way to solicit mora 
funds in tha iutura iron thosa individuals? 

A No. Tha lattars uara to show tha paopla how nuch 
ua appraciatad what thay had just dona. 

2 What was tha purposa oi tha Uhita Housa briaiings 
that wara hald? 

A Hall, wa wantad to inform our contributors at tha 
highast laval possibla. highast laval aaaning most 
important, and tha Whita Housa was conducting thasa 
briafings so wa triad to plug into that and ba allowad to 
bring our organization in to ba br.\afad as thay wara 
briaflng avarybody alsa in Amarica who aikad. 

2 This was my naxt quastion. I was wondaring uhethar 
your groups wara uniqua in racaiving Hhita Housa briafings . 

2 No. i:^ Know Ollvar Noith told Wy/twlca ha was 
briafing tha kV t i B wl Cuiiiama fc iw J a lr o y i i c^u r, a vary 
consarvativa organization, and ha brlaiad tha voman of tha 
Hathodist Church and than ha want on to briaf 112 groups. 'j'^- 

1 don't know. 12. Thay might ba at tha opposita and of the 

A 

idaologlcal spaotrum. 

2 Uhftt was tha purposa of tha briaflng with Colonel 
North? 

A Tha paopla would want to know various aspects of 



ONCUSSIREO 



445 



KAHE 
1(458 
1459 
1U60 

146 1 
1(462 
1(463 
1146U 
1(465 
1466 
1467 
1468 
1469 
1470 

147 1 
1472 
1473 
1474 
1475 
1476 
1477 
1478 
1479 
1480 
1481 
1482 



HIR260000 



ONCIiWIEO ... 



kCE 60 

tha iiaadon iightar asM^ts in Micaragua that ha would not 
covax in public briafings. 

Nomally, in fact almost all tha tima, tha public 
briafings uaxa at a tina whan ha was hamnad in with othat 
meetings and ha would coma in and hava tha public briefings 
and than just disappear. So thara was not much tima to ask 
individual questions ot develop much interest in any aspects 
of this issue. 

So what I triad to do ii ua could was from time to 
time schedule a private meeting with these people so they 
could be informed much mora about what was going on if 
possible. 

fi What was tha purpose of the private meetings with 
President Reagan? 

k The President took tha opportunity to thank--I 
assume you mean, wp40i my contributors. 

S Yes, I did. 

A Because I navar had a private meeting with him. It 
was to thank these people for thalr support, both of him in 
general and somatimas spaoliloally for tha freedom fighter 
ni^a. That Is what I hava bean told by people who did get a 
chance to hava a private meeting. 

S How did tha President baooma aware that these 
individuals waia supporting tha President or the freedom 
fighter program? 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



446 



MAKE ■ 
1U83 

1M8S 
11486 
H487 
1U88 
m89 
11490 
1U9 1 
11492 
11493 
II4914 
1495 
1496 
1U97 
1498 
1499 
1S00 
1501 
1502 
1503 
1504 
1505 
1506 
1507 



HIR260000 



•(JNCIASSIFIE 



PAGE 



61 



A It is my undatstanding that David Fischat would 
wzita son* sott of mamo briafing tha paopla at tha Uhita 
Housa, whoavar ha had to iniorn. about tha activitias and 
the congztt^aaonal tarn suppott of thasa paopla ioz Ronald 
Reagan and that nano would ba passed to whatavaz authocitias 
needed to sea it. 

On six oz eight occasions. Hz. Fischaz asked na 
such questions as hou long have these people been suppozting 
Pzesident Reagan, did they suppozt hia whan he was goveznoz. 
did they suppozt hin in his '76 zace foz Pzesident, his '84 
zace ioz Pzesident, have they contzibuted to any 
ozganizations which he has asked ior money izom. 

It was an entize zanga oi pco-Raagan activitias, 
including ouzs. I don't know of anybody who was thanked by 
tha Pzesident solely because oi a single act that pazson had 
done on ouz behalf. 

fi In any convezsations that you have with the 
Pzesident, and I beliav* you had at least one. 

A He called ma. The only tisa I talked with hia 
alone was whan ha called ma. 

fi Old you evaz mention you waze zalsing funds to 
purchase weapons for the contras? 

A Ko. 

Q What was tha purpose of having a list of big-ticket 
items or mantionlng big-ticket Items to contributors? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



447 



NAME 
1508 
1509 
15 10 
15 11 
1512 
1513 
1 51U 
1515 
1516 
1517 
1518 
1519 
1520 
1521 
1522 
1523 
152U 
1525 
1526 
1527 
1528 
1529 
1530 
1531 
1532 



HIIt260000 



ONCUSSi 



PAGE 62 



A Wall, tha two tinas that this was usad by Colonal 
Noith, I guass was to naKa suia that ha rananbaiad what ha 
wantad to say and also 1:0 ba abla to braak down tha total 
amount of tha budget for paopla . I navar had a list. 

e Did you discuss big-tickat itans with Colonal 
North? 

2 No. Dan Conrad is tha only parson who did that. I 
don't think haTdid aithar. I think what ha askad Colonel 
North to do when wa want to Texas was to create a budget of 
«5 million and I don't think Dan Conrad talked to Colonal 
North about what would ba . 

A I think ha siaply suggested when he went to Texas 
ha take with him the «5 million budget. 

Q Is there a fund-raising purpose behind asking a 
contributor for a specific item. 

A Yes. Hany contributors like to give something that 
is unique or special or something that they can look at and 
say. at least in their hearts. I gave this. It is part of 
human nature. Therefore, you will see names of people on 
hospital buildings, brass V^V^s on dialysis machines . z^ . 

Almost every government building in the city is 
named for a person. It is part of our particular psychology 
as a people. It doesn't oocur very often in Europe. 

9 The Individual you are raising money from, was 
there a fund-raising purpose of discussing weapons with 



UNClASSifiEO 



448 



NAHE: 
1533 
15314 
1535 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
15U0 
15141 
15U2 
15M3 
15>4t4 
ISUS 
15(46 
15147 
15148 
1549 
1SS0 
1551 
1552 
1553 
15514 
1555 
1556 
1557 



HIR260000 



!HCIiSS!FlEe 



PAGE 



63 



thesa paopla tathar than hunanitaiian aid or foods? 

A Mm discussad all th*s* things iron tin* to tins. 

2 Was thai* a spacific puzpos* ioz including uaapons 
in thos* discussions? 

A Soma oi thasa paopla uata vaiy intazastad in tha 
hazduaza conponant oi aid to tha izaadom fightars. 
dalinitaly . 

fi In youz opinion, would soma paopla not hava given 
monay foz humanitarian aid but only foz uaapons? 

A I truly don't know. Tha zaason why I am hasitant 
to maka a daclslva answar on that is bacausa thasa paopla 
gava in ganazal bacausa thay suppoztad Ronald Raagan's 
affozt, tramandously > to stop communism in Latin Amazioa. 

If tha quastlon waza put- ''If you can't giva to 
waaponzy for Ronald Raagan's goals, would you giva 
humanitarian aid for Ronald Raagan's goals?'' I think thay 
would hava said yas, bacausa I think thay all did. Thay 
wara raally supporting Prasidant Raagan's policias . 

This is what brought tham togathar to bagin with. Thay 
wara all vary strong supportaxs of tha Prasidant. 

fi Did you tall any contributors that if thay gava a 
larga contribution to any of your organizations thay could 
maat with tha Prasidant? 

A No. Hhat I did say to Bill O'Boyla was that if ha 
was abla to giva mora monay that wa would raquast that ha ba 



UNCLASSIFIED 



449 



KAnz: 

15S8 
15S9 
1560 
156 1 
1562 
1563 

iseu 

1565 
1566 
1567 
1568 
1569 
1570 
1571 
1572 
1573 
1571* 
1575 
1576 
1577 
1578 
1579 
1580 
1581 
1582 



HIR260000 Vi ^ V*.* 8V!' Vsl St.J> pAQj gy 
abla to ba thankad by tha Prasidcnt of th* Unitad States in 
th« iutuz*. U« had savaial potantial thank-you minutas, if 
you want to call than that, which tha Prasidant tuznad down. 

I had nc idaa how thasa things waza arzangad, the 
nachanism of it, so I rlan^t know at ona time oz another 
whathaz wa would avar gat anybody alsa to saa tha Pzesident. 

If you would pzomisa that, that would ba a vezy 
dangazous thing to do bacausa you waza not in contzol and it 
was totally unzaliabla . 

S Did you avar tall Mz . O'Boyla that ha had to 
contributa monay foz waaponi in ozdaz to aaat tha Pzasidant? 

A Ko. 

fi Did you avar tall any contributor that? 

A Mo. 

2 In your mind, was thara avar a zalationship between 
how much a contributor gava to you and thair opportunity to 
maat with tha Prasidant? 

A Ha hava discussad pravlously that soma paopla gava 
wall undar 4100.000 and wara thankad by tha Prasidant. Soma 
paopla gava wall ovaz «1 million and wara thankad by tha 
Prasidant. So it is a whola ranga. I would lika to have nSLS, 
all my contributors W'^ thankad by tha Prasidant. 

fi Hhy is that? 

A Bacausa thay hava halpad his pollogi bacoma a 
succass and his policy is vary good for tha futura in this 



A 



UNCIASSIFIEO 



94 088-16 



450 



MAKE: HIR260000 



SSIRED . 



AGE 65 



1583 country in trying to stop tha growth of comaunism in Latin 

1S8U &m*Eica. Hany paopla sacrificad to giva monay 8^4 could not 

1585 giva vary much. 
'586 ona oi tha raasons why our group aaating with tha 

1587 Hhita Housa was so important was bacausa I could invita iiany 

1588 paopla iDfv that maating who could probably not saa tha 

1589 Prasidant undar othar circuastancas bacausa thay could not 
giva vary much. Ha had savaral paopla who wara not abla to 



1590 



1591 giva larga amounts of monay, but who had sacrificad 

1592 tramandously for tha Prasidant. I was dallghtad that wa 

1593 wara abla to hava tham.also. 

A 

'S9M fi Is it fair to say that in your opinion no ona at 

1595 tha Hhita Housa was undar tha imprassion that individuals 

1596 had to giva you a cartain amount of monay bafora you would 

1597 raquast an opportunity for tham to aaat with tha Prasidant? 

1598 A Sinca I didn't hava anything to do with tha 
raquast, I don't know what oeourrad. Sorry. I had nothing 

1600 to do with that. I was navar in tha Hhita Housa whan any of 

1601 thasa maatings took plaoa. 

1602 fi Hhat was your raason for hiring ISC? 

1603 A I was told by my friand at tha Hhita Housa that 
16014 this company was tha in-dapth aKpart in tha fiald of tha 

1605 Nicaragua lasua and if Z raally wantad to laarn about this 

1606 issua. I should go and talk with thasa paopla, and tMy^^^c« 

1607 right. 



1599 



lINCLASSIFiED 



451 



NAME: 
1608 
1609 
1610 
16 11 
1612 
1613 
161U 
1615 
1616 
1617 
1618 
1619 
1620 
1621 
1622 
1623 
16214 
1625 
1626 
1627 
1628 
1629 
1630 
1631 
1632 



HIR260000 ^^^'''^'^O^lflllj PAGE 



■jj ekQt 66 

Q I would lika to talk to you a littla bit about 
division oi tasponsibllitias within youx organization. I 
think I hava studiad your organization ior a faw months now 
and I can't flgura out what all tha jobs thasa paopla did, I 
guass you can undarstand that. 

A Actually, I can't, but wa will solva that. 

Q First oi all, what was your job? 

A I was tha haad oi tha organization. I guidad tha 
policy, craatad tha policy. I raisad aight oi avary tan 
dollars. I was in charga oi irankly craating tha programs, 
moving tha programs as iar as raising tha iunds ior tham. 
That is all that I did. I had Dan Conrad hirad as tha 
administrator to hlxa and ilra avarybody, to govarn tha 
administratlva activitlas oi all our organizations and 
support staii. 

In iact, I was told by Dan Conrad many, many timas, 
''Plaasa stay out oi all tha administration. I am in charga 
oi all oi it. • • 

fi nr. nillar? 

A Ha was just a oonsultant. a hlrad consultant. 

(1 Hhat sort oi rasponslbllltlas did ha hava as a 
consultant? Hhat araas? 

A As a program consultant. Z would oxaata tha 
coneapt. ozaata tha goal and whan I daalt with him as a 
consultant, ha would halp ma put togathaz tha guts. 




l/Ot 




452 



KAnE = 
1633 
163(4 
163S 
1636 
1637 
1638 
1639 
UKO 
16141 
16K2 
16U3 
16UU 
1645 
16116 
16U7 
16>t8 
16U9 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
165U 
1655 
1656 
1657 



HIR260000 tJllULnUl^gl ILU '*''' *' 
mtastinas. tha body oi tha piogran. 

fi In dAtatmining what you paid consultants, is it 
fair to say it was an atiis ' langth business daal and that* 
was nothing alsa involvad in datatmining that anount oi 
nonay ? 

A Ua always askad tham how much thay chatgad for what 
wa naadad dona . 

ft Did you always pay that prica? Has negotiation 
involvad? 

A Somatisas wa negotiated and soaetiaes we paid aora 
baoause the prograas would grow. It is not at all unusual 
when you hire consultants that it is not so auch that things 
aay get out of hand, but the projects aay grow treaendously 
and things aay go up. 

fi Did you feel you got your aoneys worth with Hr . 
Fischer and Mr. Artiano? 

A Hell. I can't reaeaber how auch they received, but 
X do think that they were, at least Hr . Fischer was 
eKtreaely helpful in a variety of ways with a variety of our 
prograas. k lot of the aoney we paid hla. of course, was 
beginning to Invest in prograas which have not been carried 
out which he did a great deal of ground work for which have 
been truncated . 

In that respect, he was doing hit thing and we had 



to stop. 



"Ncawe 



453 



KAHE- 
1658 
1659 
1660 
1661 
1662 
1663 
166U 
1665 
1666 
1667 
1668 
1669 
1670 
1671 
1672 
1673 
1674 
1675 
1676 
1677 
1678 
1679 
1680 
1681 
1682 



HIR260000 



RED 



PAGE 



68 



For instancs, ha was working almost daily on tha 
craation of our Constitution project. It nav«r got oH tha 
ground bacausa ua uara stoppad iron doing it. 

Wa had bagun to discuss tha typas of activitias 
that ha would ba angagad in in January of 1986. That was 
somathing ha was working on sinultanaously with activity on 
Nicaragua. Ha workad on this actually off and on. 

I was talking to him avary waak about activities on 
tha Constitution projaot for tan months and wa navar got to 
carry it out. 

e Did you solicit monay for KZPL by tailing potential 
contributors that tha monay would ba usad to purchase 
weapons ? 

A I was not involved in that. Hhat Z was involved 
with was fulfilling some of the goals that Colonel North had 
said these people needed. I mean Colonel North was the 
person who would lay out what the freedom fighters needed. 
I would say to them, do you want to help with this, we would 
like your help with this, we would like you to give as much 
as you can to this . 

fi Hy question was. was there a connection between the 
money they gave and what was ultimately purchased? Was 
there a representation as to that connection? 

A I think that in several oases — well, you see. we 
were discussing such a variety of needs. Z am not exactly 




'S-HJ; 



.-5Vi3 



454 



NAHE: 
1683 
USX 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 
1691 
1692 
1693 
169K 
1695 
1696 
1697 
1698 
1699 
1700 
1701 
1702 
1703 
170U 
1705 
1706 
1707 




wssiFe '- " 



HIR260000 

sura uhat is in tha ninds of tha contiibutoi bacausa I don't 
hava any lattars or anything from contributors saying, ''Wa 
gava pracisaly to this.'' 

fi But X an asking what you raprasantad. 

A It was always a variaty of things. Ua asKad for a 
budgat which would includa a variaty of things. Of coursa. 
nobody avar gava that aaount aithar. So whan thay wara 
thinking about what thay wara giving to, thay obviously 
thought about things thay dacidad not to giva to. Sonatinas 
contributors would say to na that thay didn't cara if it 
want to waapons or not or thay hopad it would go to so-and- 
so and so-and so. 

So, than I, of coursa. would giva tha nonay to Rich 
Millar and wa wara going to find out latarTM. axactly what 
it want for. 

But wa raraly, if ayar, want to, any contributor 
with a ona-itam di 

fi In April 1986. you want to Elian Garwood. 

A Sha caaa hara . 

ft tight. You Bat Kllan Garwood and askad har to 
contrlbut* aonay for waapons > is that trua? 

A Tha list Colonal North had includad waapons . I 
think it also inoludad savaral hundrad thousand dollars in 
food and supplias. It was a list of aight to tan itans. 

fi You askad har to contilbuta nonay for what was on 



araiy. ix avar, want to any con«riButor 
aa'l and askad than to giva^just <o that. 







m 



455 



NAME 

1708 

1709 

17 10 

17 11 

17 12 

17 13 

17 lU 

1715 

17 16 

17 17 

17 18 

17 19 

1720 

1721 

1722 

1723 

172U 

1725 

1726 

1727 

1728 

1729 

1730 

1731 

1732 



HIR260000 l?i1l5H,jiU^^Sa 



PAGE 70 
that list; is that corract? 

A UhatAvar th« total amount was, I askad her if she 
would give the total amount. And she did not. 

fi Did you evei ask a contributor to donate money to 
your organizations for the purpose of purchasing military 
weapons ? 

A Some parts of those budgets would include military 
weapons. I thought you meant specifically one item. The 
list did include military hardware. 

S There were individuals other than Ellen Garwood who 
contributed money for weapons? 

A Yes, hoping it would go to that. 

fi Did you believe, did you have any basis to believe 
that their money would ultimately be used to purchase 
weapons ? 

A X did not Know because I never had any feedback 
that It ever did happen. 

a Do you have any knowledge whether Colonel North 
knew NEPL was a tax-exempt organization? 

A Z an sure he had to. 

S Mom are you sure? 

A To my knowledge, he saw out Central American 
freedom program, the documents we had, he spoke at our 
Central American Preedom Program briefings. We always had 
the blue document and in the blue document, it mentions that 




456 



NAME: 
1733 
1734 
173S 
1736 
1737 
1738 
1739 

17^o 

1741 
1742 
1743 
1744 
174S 
1746 
1747 
1748 
1749 
17S0 
1751 
1752 
1753 
1754 
17SS 
1756 
1757 



UNCLASSIFit 



HIR250000 SSIUI.I UXAgrSi y page 71 
NEPL is a 501(0(3) organization. 

I don't know whathai this is ralavant or not, but 
It was tavaalad in tha Touax Connission Raport that ha 
wantad to ctaata an organization lika NZPL and listad all 
the things ha wantad that organization to do. which ha 
spaciiically said was a tax-axampt organization. 

fi Has Colonal North avar prasant whan you solicited 
nonay iron an individual? 

A I don't racall that ha was. Ha would always laava 
baiora I did that. 

fi Did Colonal Korth Know what organization tha money 
was being contributed to, which oi your organizations the 
money was being contributed to? 

A I assume he did. 

Q What is the basis ior that assumption? 

A He only dealt with him in regard to one 
organization. 

e Hhich was? 

NEPL> from beginning to end. He only spoke at NEPL 



A 

events 
fi 
A 
fi 



Oi your organizations? 
Yet. 

Did Colonel North ever dizaot you to accept a 
contribution for a speciiic entity? 
A No. 




UUll Si 



457 



HIR260000 



ONCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 



72 



a Did you «v«t dir«ct Colonal North to purchasa 
spacific military •quipmant with any of th« contributions? 

A No . I would lika to add that I was totally unaware 

that Colonal North was doing that until aitar this crisis 

davalopad and I was iniormad that, I was told that whan wa 

got our annual raport--again ranaabar this crisis occurrad in 

aarly Dacambar and I had plannad throughout that yaar in tha 

naxt yaar wa would hava a raport to sand to tha whola world 

bacausa wa wara so proud o± what wa had dona. 

I was iniormad in lata Dacambar or aarly January ^i/~ 

A • 
whan I got my raport oi whara all tha monay had gona that 

thara would ba a statamant in that raport saying that Rich 

Millar had baan diractad by Colonal North to sand a lot oi 

this monay to placas listad balow. That was tha iirst tirea 

I avan Knaw that that ralationship was going on. 

So whan you ask ma did I diraot Colonal North to 

spand tha monay ior somathing> I was navar auara that ha 

was . 

fi &nd you navar knau that military Itams wara baing 
purchasad with this monay? 

A X navar had any proof of it. Adolio Calaro had 
said to at laast two of our maatlngs, whan you giva monay 
ior humanltaxian aid, that rmlamsas monay that wa hava to 
spand on waapons . Savaral paopla mantlonad this to ma. 
Thay said, wall, wa arm giving aid, so ha will hava tha 



im 



458 



NAHE 

1783 

1784 

I78S 

1786 

1787 

1788 

1789 

1790 

1791 

1792 

1793 

179M 

179S 

1796 

1797 

1798 

1799 

1800 

1801 

1802 

1803 

180U 

1805 

1806 

1807 



HIR360000 




i«on«y fron'^fhat' places to buy w«apons. so it is th« 
equivalant of helping thai* with waapons. 

Sinca I had no ptooi that any of our monay was 
spant on monay and sinca Adolfo nada this statament savaral 
times to our paopla, I thought this monay was going to 
supplant othat nonay. 

1 was unauara that Colonal Horth did hava an immediate, 
ditact relationship with our chacKs to IBC that I later came 
to be informed of. 

a Were you planning to send the report Rich Hiller 
was going to provide to Ellen Garwood? 

A Everybody on earth. He were going to hava a big 
press meeting in January. 

2 This is contributors? 
A Oh, yes. 

2 Did you feel they would be disappointed in learning 
their money was not going to be used to purchase weapons? 

A No. 

S Hhy 

A I thought when the report oaae out part of the 
information would be you gave to this and that allowed 
Adolfo to do this and therefore we have done everything. 
Host of these people were awaxe of what Jack Singlaub was 
doing which I think was only weaponry for the freedom 
fighters from outside the country. 




uu 



459 



N&nE 

1808 
1809 
1810 
1811 
1812 
1813 
18114 
1815 
1816 
1817 
1818 
1819 
1820 
1821 
1822 
1823 
182U 
1825 
1826 
1827 
1828 
1829 
1830 
1831 
1832 



HIR260000 



UNCUSSifiEO 



PAGE 



7t* 



Thara had baan many discussions about buying 
uaapons outsida tha country with fozaign monay> that that is 
hou you could do it. 

2 What was youz concatn about contributing aonay ioz 
tha purchasa of uaapons insida tha country? 

A What was my concarn about that? I didn't say thara 
was a concarn about that. I said my contributors ware aware 
because Adolio mentioned several times that he used money ha 
got from fozaign sources to buy weapons around the uorld. 

a You said you could use money from foreign sources. 

A That is what Adolf o said. He said when we give 
money in this country to support him. that frees up money 
that he would have from foreign sources, say, to buy bread, 
that he could now use to buy weapon*. 

fi Are you aware of something wrong, illegal with 
purchasing weapons from money contributed by individuals in 
he United States? 

A There are certain laws that govern that. 

e Are you aware of the laws? 

A I beoajta aware of tham in Oeeembat. 

e What are they? 

A You would have to get tha lawyer to list them, but 
I got a bzlailng on what you have to do if you are going to 
do it. Thara is a process you have to go through. There 
are certain things you cannot do. It is almost like a blind 



Mmm 



460 



KAHE 
1833 
1834 
1835 
1836 
1837 
1838 
1839 
18<40 
18>41 
18U2 
18K3 
184M 
18US 
18146 
18i«7 
18M8 
18(49 
1850 
1851 
1852 
1853 
185(4 
1855 
1856 
1857 



HIR260000 



PAGE 75 



invastnant at somaona's banking account. I hava not laad 
that^-^^^'^^^^A, . 

e Is that privilagad? 

A Ko. It is just a mamo . Flayba you wata gona whan I 
said this tha othar day, that I was sura that Olivar North, 
uhan I want to saa hi« or anybody in tha Hhita Housa, was 
not angaging in any activity that would ba at all against 
tha law and tharaiora I was sura that what ha said was not 
against tha law aithar. 

I was sura that whan our raport cama to us at tha 
and of tha. yaar that wa would probably hava to go to sona 



/ 



lawyar or tha Hhita Housa lawyar ot I don't know whosa 
lawyar, but wa would go to thaa and ba sura avarything was 
lagal and assura our contributors. 

I had absoluta coniidanca that whan Oacanbai cana. 

A. 

wa would. I didn't losa a ainuta's slaap ovar it. I had 
baan vary concarnad about it bacausa I thought Ollia was 
walking a tight Una, but I was sura ha knaw axactly what ha 
was doing. 

This was tha Hhita Housa. And whan wa got our 
raport raady, that all tha lagal undarpinnlng would ba 
thaxa. It navax onoa occurrad to aa that it would not ba . 

a I am coniusad. You had a problaa with raising 
nonay iroa individuals in tha Unitad Statas ior waapons, you 
thought that should ba foraign aonay? 



UNCUSSIFiEfl 



461 



KAKE ' 
1858 
18S9 
1860 

186 1 
1862 
1863 
136>4 
1865 
1866 
1867 
1868 
1869 
1870 

187 1 
1872 
1873 
187U 
1875 
1875 
1877 
1878 
1879 
1880 
1881 
1882 






HIR260000 

A No. Adolio told oui groups. 

2 Was that your undarstanding that you should not 
laisa raonay in tha United Statas ior uaapons? 

A Ko . My undarstanding uas that this is what ha 
could do whan ua gava hin itonay. That raplacad nonay ha 
would hava to usa for braad and ha could usa this other 
nonay for waapons or othar things. 

S Did Rich nillaz avar instruct you to usa NEPL in 
your fund-raising afforts with contributors as opposad to 
any of your othar organizations ior tha Cantral Amarican 
fraadon fightars? 

A I don't think I undarstand tha quastion. Rich 
nillar navar told ma to usa any organization for anything. 

Q So that was your dacision? 

A Yas. 

fi Did you avar discuss with Colonal North tha 
advantagas of using a taK-axaapt corporation to raisa nonay, 
that soma individuals may want to contributa to a tax-aKampt 
corporation such as NZPL to ba abla to taXa that daduction 
whan donating nonay to you? 

A Not in that way at all. I had mantionad savaral 
pro jact^^l^fl wantad NZPL to carry out. I said to him. 
''On tha iilBS on tarrorisa. wa ara going to ba abla to gat 
this monay baoausa it is all tax daduotlbla . ' ' 

nx. BUCK' I hava no iusthaz quastions. 



DNWSSiflffl 



462 



\\m\ AQQsnFO 

HAHE: HIR260000 iJnULnOO.k ^LJ ^^^^ ^^ 

1883 Thank you vaiy much. 

188U EXAHIKATIOH ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COHHITTEE 

1885 BY HR. FRYHAK: 

1886 2 Hr . Channall, wa previously talkad about youi 

1887 meeting with Colonel Horth and Hx . Hiller, I believe, in 

1888 July of 198 where it was decided that you were transferring 

1889 moneys to an account oi Hr . Miller's that you had raised on 

1890 behalf of the resistance in Nicaragua. 

1891 Do you recall that conversation in July of 1985? 

1892 A Yes. 

1893 fi Has it your understanding at the time of that 

189U conversation that Colonel North would have some control over 

1895 the funds after they went into Hr . Hlller's account? 

1896 A That is very difficult to tell because I was not 

1897 aware for a very long time of the exact relationship of Rich 

1898 Miller to Colonel North. Because I was not aware of it, I 

1899 didn't think of what it could be. I didn't think of what 

1900 could happen. I knew they were good friends. I knew they 
190 1 were associates. 

1902 I conoluded after this dinner that Colonel North 

1903 had something to do with the disposition of our support. It 
190U was clear that he did, but I couldn't tell you what. My 

1905 image was that he would meet periodically with the freedom 

1906 fighter leadership and maybe even Rich would be there and 

1907 they would say we have this much now in the accounts, what 






463 



NAME: 

1908 
1909 
19 10 
19 11 
19 12 
1913 
191U 
191S 
1916 
1917 
1918 
1919 
1920 
1921 
1922 
1923 
192(4 
1925 
1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 



HIR260000 i28^y[AoS!nEij ^*=' ^^ 

do u* do with it and Olli* night say, ''It is ny advica that 
you do so-and-so and nayba Adolfo would say w* want to do 
this . ' ' . L 

ny idaa was that It was going tn » o a big pot and 
iron tim* to tin* thay waia ma*ting to dacida what to do 
with tha nonay in soit oi a collagial atmosphara. That is 
ny inaga . 

S Aitax that July 1985 naating. you causad nillions 
of dollars to ba transiatrad to an account controllad by nr . 
nillar; is that coriact? 

A Yas . IBC is what you naani that is all. 

a Cithar to tha IBC account oz tha Caynan Islands 
account. Thaza cana a point whan you causad funds to ba 
tzansfarrad to tha Caynan Islands, did you not? 

A Yas, at Hz. Hlllaz's zaquast. Whan wa nada out tha 
chacks to tha Caynan Islands account, wa waza unawara that 
it was a Caynan Islands account. 

a But you wara subsaquantly nada awaza that it was? 

A That is cozzact. 

a You causad nillions oi dollazs oi funds to ba 
tzansfazzad to two accounts contzollad by Hr . Hillar? 

A I don't know if Hz. Hlllaz was contzolling thosa 
accounts . 

a I just want to gat tha chzonology stzaight in tha 
zacozd. Hz. Channall. 



ONCLASSIFIEO 



464 



iCLASSIFIED 



Hint HIR260000 "^ "- -— — p^gj ,, 

1933 In July 198S, you nat with Colonel North and Hi. 

193(t nillar and it was dacidad that you should tzansiaz thasa 

1935 funds? 

1936 A To wozk thzough IBC to giva suppozt to tha iraadom 

1937 fightazs. 

1938 a Kara you told oi tha account at that maating, but 

1939 subsaquantly Hz. Hlllaz caaa to you and idantliiad tha 
19<40 account to which you should tzansiaz tha funds? 

19U1 A Ha transiazzad nonay to IBC and a yaar and thzaa 

19<42 months lataz, whatavaz it was, wa tzansfazzad itonay to tha 

19M3 Grand Caymans account, but as I said, wa waza not awaza that 

19<4<4 it was a Gzand Caymans account. Ha thought it was anothaz 

l9>tS of Rich Hillaz's ozganlzational accounts. It was not namad 

19'46 Gzand Caymans. It was namad INTZL. I thought it was up 

19>47 hara at Riggs Bank. 

19U8 e Aftaz you tzansfazzad thasa millions of dollars to 

19>49 thasa accounts, was It youz understanding that Colonal North 

1950 had soma say in tha disposition of tha funds from thasa 

1951 accounts? 

1952 A I parsonally ballavad that ha had soma influanca on 

1953 tha dlsposltloni that is cozzact. 

195<( e Hz. Buck askad you savazal questions about tha 

1955 puzposa oi pzlvata bziaflngs with youz oontzlbutozs . You 

1956 hava dasczlbad in youz testimony a number of those pzivate 

1957 bziefings, and Z believe you have testified that on several 



mmmm 



465 



NAnE: 
1958 
1959 
1960 
196 1 
1962 
1963 
196<4 
1965 
1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
1971 
1972 
1973 
1974 
1975 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 



fNCUSSiflEO 



HIR260000 -"--^ pjQj 80 

occasions in thosa biiciings Colonal North dasciibad 
pacticular military naads of tha contrasi is that correct? 

A Yas. 

fi Is it corract to say that ona oi tha purposes at 
least on occasion oi those private briefings was for Colonel 
North to comnunicate to tha contributor particular military 
needs? 

A Occasionally he would do that, you are correct. 

fi You mentioned in response to Hr . Buck's questions 
that you had received a legal memorandum from your counsel, 
at least it is my understanding that you racaivad written 
legal advice and that is what you described in response to 
Mr. Buck's question. 

ns. MORRISON: I don't think ha dasoribad tha 
advica. 

BY MR. FRYHAN: 

fi It was written rather than oral; corract? 

A I requested this from counsel after tha crisis 
began. It was not during this tima . It was after tha 
crisis began. After I hired soma lawyers to deal with this. 
I said, oh, good, I need to know. So it was all afterwards. 

e Khan you said after tha orlsls, you mean it was 
aitar Dacambaz 1, 19867 

A Yes. 

S Has tha attorney who prapazad this mamorandum Hr . 




466 



NAHE: 
1983 
198U 
1985 
1986 
1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 
1991 
1992 
1993 
1994 
1995 
1996 
1997 
1998 
1999 
2000 
2001 
2002 
2003 
20014 
2005 
2006 
2007 



A Ko. 

S Was it Ms. Hotriton's iirn? 

ns . nORXISOK' is this r*l*vant? I am uondaring 
about tha intaxast that you axa axprassing. 

HR. rRYHAN: I think, ns . Hotcison, that it is 
apptopriata fox ma to puxsua this lina oi foundation 
quastioning as a basis fox xaaching tha conclusion that it 
is a privilagad docunant. 

ns. nORRISON' You hava said it was a aamo which 
axosa advisir.g Hx . Channall aitax tha fact about Issuas 
ralatad to what ha has pxobably quita accuxataly dascxibad 
as tha cxisis. It is not paxtinant to tha tiaa fxama that 
you axa looking at. 

BY HR. FRYHAN' 

fi Did you shaxa this aaitoxandua with any of youx 
contxibutoxs? 

A No. 

fi And you had not xacalvad any Baaoxandum Mith any 
attornay with xasyaot to tha aaehanics of making 
oentxibutlons pxiox to Daoaabax 1. 1986? 

A No. 



a ^^)- c-j 



As you knoM, S^i^has a aandata as to what you could 
do Hlth ganaxal paxaaataxs. ganaxal causas to halp tha 
Moxld. faad tha Morld. aduoata tha woxld. which, of couxsa. 




467 



KAHX: 

2008 
2009 
20 10 
20 1 1 
20 12 
2013 
201(4 
2015 
2016 
2017 
2018 
2019 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 
202M 



hmlLl 



PAGE 



82 



HIR260000 
is producad by lawy«rs. 

2 An I coctact that Hz. Hazg* had s*rvad as counsal 
foe youz organization in connaction with th« organizational 
mattar? 

A Yas. 

nx. FKYHAN: That is all tha quastions I hava . 
BY HR. BUCK: 
fi Do you know of any contributors that donated money 
to your tax-axampt corporation, spaoifically MEPL. that 
would not hava donated ncnay had it not baan a tax-axarapt 
contribution? 
A Mo. 

S Nobody avar stated that was tha reason? 
A Ko. 

MR. rRYHAN! Thank you vary much. 
[Hharaupon, at IZ^US p.m.. tha taking of tha 
deposition concluded. ) 



m 



468 



469 



Hkni HIR260000 ^ g 5 S f«;F; ?^OQ|I!'|Cn ^^'^^ 



« COKTENTS « 



STATEHINTS Of! 




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470 



471 



J«nu«ry 9,. 1 986 



Me n.o ran a urn For: 
F ror : 
Subjec t : 



Mr. Spitz Channell 

Rich Mi 1 ler , Frank Gomez 

Freedom Program 



As you know, Bruce Cameron, among others, has been chastised 
lately by the liberal lobby for "defecting" to the Reaqan 
Administration on Central American matters. Cameron, until 
last Summer, was the chief foreign policy lobbyist for 
Americans for Democratic Action, and one of the most 
effective critics of Administration policy. Like Bob 
Leiken of the Carnegie Endowment, however, he saw the truth, 
spoke It. and lost his job. 

We know Bruce personally. But through f confidential source, 
we have learned that he is in dire need of a job. It has 
occurred to us, therefore, (and with some extra thinking 
by our source) that he could be extremely helpful In the 
Central America Freedom Program. 

What we Suggest is that the Program provide a grant of about 
$40,000 to PRODEMCA and that one condition for the grant be 
that they hire Cameron as their lobbyist. This amount would 
enable Cameron to work about six months at $5,000 per month 
plus SIO.OOO in expenses (phone, representation, taxi, etc.) 

Cameron's background is in the Democratic party. Also, 
PRODEMCA was founded and is guided primarily by conservative 
Democrats. They played an important role In the victory 
last spring. Both PRODEMCA and Cameron would have easy 
entree into the opposition ranks on the hill and would be 
highly c re di bl e . 

We urge you to consider this as a component of your program. 
We welcome the opportunity to discuss It further. 



(Lmaki.( ( (. cy- 



il r 



472 



HEIIO 

DATE: 12/2/86 

TO: CLIFF/SPITZ 

FROH: STEVE 

RE: GOODHAN/RAH FIUIS BALANCE DUE 



ACCORDING TO OUR RECORDS, MRS. GARWOOD'S 25.000 CONTRIBUTION WAS 
GIVEN TO ACT SEF. WE WERE INSTRUCTED THAT TNIS HONEY COULD HOT 
BE USED FOR THE TV COHHERCIALS. IT WAS USED TO PAY FOR NEWSPAPER 
ADS - GET OUT AND VOTE (18.000) AND OTHER BILLS. THEREFORE, 
THE ASSUHPTION THAT THIS HOHEY WAS USED TO PAT FOR PRODUCTION COSTS 
OF THE TV COHHERCIALS IS INCORRECT. 

WE WERE ALSO TOLD TO HOLD OFF ON SENDING THE INITIAL HONEY TO 
GOODHAN AND RAH UNTIL ENOUGH FUNDS HAD BEEN 'CREATED* IN THE FEDERAL 
ACCOUNT. I BELIEVE THIS WAS ACCOHPLISHEO VIA CONTRIBUTIONS FROH SPITZ. 
ERIC, AND ATAC FED ( 3,000 EACH). 

AT THIS POINT IN TIHE. THE FEDERAL HONIES WERE USED TO PURCHASE CRITICAL 
TIHE BUYS. NOT PRODUCTION COSTS. THE SECOND PURCHASE OF HEDIA TIHE 
FOR til. 000 COULD NOT BE COHPLETELY CARRIED OUT BY GOODHAN. THIS CREDIT 
OF CI. 750 WAS APPLIED AGAINST THE TOTAL PRODUCTION COSTS OF RAH AND 
GOODHAN COHBIHED OF •19.750 THUS LEAVING AN OUTSTANDING BALANCE FOR 
PRODUCTION COSTS OF APPROXIHATELY tlB.OOO. 

THEREFORE, IT IS CLEAR THAT WE HAVE NOT PAID THE PRODUCTION COSTS 
WHICH GOODHAN AND RAH ARE BILLING US FOR AND FOR WHICH WE HAVE 
BEEN AWARE OF NOW FOR AT LEAST A HOHTH. WE HAVE EXPLAINED THIS 
SCENARIO ON PREVIOUS OCCASIONS AND HUST OBTAIN A RESOLUTION FROH YOU. 



PLEASE REVIEW THE ATTACHED INVOICES AND AUTHORIZE FOR PAYHENT. IF YOU 
HAVE ANY DISCREPANCIES YOU HUST DISCUSS THEN WITH GOODHAN OR RAH. WE 
ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO DETERHINE THE VALIDITY OF THE CHARGES, ONLY 
WHETHER THEY HAVE BEEN PAID OR HAVE NOT BEEN PAID. 






473 




WMmm 

Aoguft lb, 19SS 




Dear Spitz 



Throochout the struggl* for freedom and democracy in Nicaragua, 
there are those who have carried this great burden with 
dedication and a true sense of patriotism. You and the people 
involved in the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty are at the center of the struggle. 

In the Spring when we began our campaign to help the Nicaraguan 
resistance in a crucial struggle for democracy m their native 
land, your resources helped carry the day. Without your fine 
efforts, their situation would have gone from desperate to 
hopeless. Yours was • key organization in supporting President 
Reagan's legislative initiative for Congressional aid to the 
Nicaraguan freedom fighters. Your paid advertising and support 
of the President's program was critical to our success. 

In July when you began to help educate others to the needs of the 
Nicaraguan freedom fi-ghter«, their chances were greatly 
increased. The special events you hosted and the generous 
support your peoplt gave carried the day and helped to save 
freedom from extinction in Nicaragua. Your continuing efforts 
have two very special values. The level of support you have 
brought to the struggle has been nothing short of monumental. 
The steadfastness and commitment you have maintained is the true 
sion of patriotism. When freedom and democracy are at stake, 
those who sacrifice without public acclaim it to the world are 
our truest patriots. 

The prograjr.t you hav« undertaken art crucial, without the means 
you provide, those who seek a democratic outcome in Nicaragua 
will fail. As always, in the hour of critical need, we find you 
and the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty ready 
to help. 

For your past efforts and your present initiatives, we salute 
you . 

Sincerely 



Oliver 1.. North 
D'-puty nirtCTor 
Pnlitjrrtl- Military Aff^ii 



Mr. C.irl Husroll Ch.innol 
\flt»f.i..] Fnrtf •v.nii-nt li.r Hh 
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ii ' 4« li :'.t ri> t , N . I. . 




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474 



THC MHITI MOUSE 
DC lOSOO 17A»< 






Union 



aiigram 



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OOOn HLTN v« 0t/l7/tl 



MSMA 



N«, SPITZ CHiNNCLL 

pnesioesT 

AMiRICiK CONIERVATXVE TRUST 
SOS aTH ITRCCT, N.C. 

MAIHINCTON, OC 20002 



THE MHITE HOUSE IS CONOUCTXHC * SPECIAL BRIEriNfi ON CENTRAL 
AMERICA ON SEHALF or THE NICARAOUAN RErUQEE FUND. YOU ARE 

CORDIALLY INVITED TO ATTEND THIS HI6H-LEVEL IRIEriNC HMICH 
HiLt BE HELD ON TUESDAY, JANUARY 22, PROH llSO TO StlO R.M, 
IN THE ROOSEVELT ROOH IN THE NEST NIN6 OP THE MHlTE HOUSE. 

IF YOU RLAN TO ATTEND, RCEASE ARRIVE AT THE NQRTHHEST 6ATE 

ON RENNSYLVANIA AVENUE lY HIS R.H, tilTH FHOTO«ID. 

RLEASE RSVR TO 202/«S*>2kS7 AS SOON AS FOSSIILE. 

SINCERELY, 

PAITH RYAN MHITTLESEY, ASSISTANT TO 
THE RRESIDENT fOR RUILIC LIAISON 

I3I0»'CST 

M6MC0HR 



TO REPLY BY MAILGRAM MESSAGE. SEE REVERSE SIDE FOR WESTERN UNION'S TOU. - FREE RHONE NUMBERS 



475 



=^ 



IMPORTANT NOTICE 



THE MCARAGUAN REFUGEE FUND 

a non profit 50l(cK3) humaniiarian effort esublished to supply Nicara- 
guan refugees, now in Honduras and Cosu Rica, with much needed 
medical supplies, food, tools and clothing, announces: 

A Special Fundraising Dinner Honoring 

PRESIDENT AND MRS. REAGAN 

on 

April 2. 198S 

at 

The Sheraton Washington Hotel 

Woodley and Connecticut Avenues. N.W. 

Washington. D.C. 

Cockuils: 6:30 p.m.; Dinner 7:30 p.m. 

Tickets: $250 per person 

$2500 per cable 

Co-Chairs of the dinner will be Rep. Louis (Woody) Jenkitu. 

Chairman. Friends of the Americas, and well-known philanthropist 

and humanitarian. Sugar Rautbord. 

Other outstanding Americans supporting this effort and 
serving on the Honorary Dinner Committee include: 

W. Clement Stone 

Bob Hope 

Honorable Jack Kemp 

Frank Borman 



For Informaiion Conuct 
Nicaraguan Refugee Fund 
Dinner Commiitee 
1090 Vermoni Avenue. NW 
Washington. DC 20003 
(202)682-1680 



ft 00-5298 



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476 



>l E >l O 



4/19/85 



Dear Dan, Spitz ( Crew: 



It's been some week, and yet 
I know our collective efforts will 
reap nice rewards. 

Enclosed find a summary sheet 
outlining our TV buys in ten different 
media markets across the country. 
As discussed, we'll attempt to "pry 
open" the Hartford/New Haven by 
Monday morning. 

Finally, to prove there is 
indeed some method to my madness, 
I'm enclosing a summary of the 
research used to define the TV markets 
selected to reach the 21 targeted 
Congressmen (per Rich Miller) . It 
provides a quick glimpse of the 
number of Congressman actually impacted 
by our wave of "Freedom Fighters" 
television. 

We'll call you Monday about 
New Haven, and to set up a time when 
we can meet to discuss this current 
buy as it applies to any future 
projects down the line. 

Thanks again for your patience. 
I really feel our two groups, working 
together, really make quite a team. 



J.^r>^S^ 



477 




the robert goodtman ageneyt inc. 

OU COURT t muj *OAM — MI SII. IROOKLAIIOVIkU, MAaruUlO lieu 



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OLD COUITT • nou HOAOS — MI Sia, MOOKLANOVIUl, MAIIYUMO 2I0U (Ml) 2M-S3JO 



THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 

"Freedom Fighters' Television 
Market by Market Cost Breakdown 



TV 
Market 



WASHINGTON 

MIAMI 

CLEVELAND 

PHILADELPHIA 

KANSAS CITY 

TXn-SA 

ALBUQUERQUE 

BEAUMONT 

CHARLOTTE 

DALLAS 



$ 

Spent 



9 25,950. 
5,875. 
5,090. 
15,000. 
5,000. 
5,000. 
3,560. 
3,400. 
5,015. 
9,075. 

$ 82,965. 



A contingency fund of $ 5,000 will be applied to 
any TV buy we can clear with a station which reaches 
the Greenwich, Connecticut viewing audience... 



479 



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the robert goodman agency^ inc. 

THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 

"Aid to the Freedom Fighters" 

TV — Costs 6 Options 



(1) WASHINGTON, D.C. 

Affected Congressmen: ALL 
Estinated Cost: 

200 GRPs - $ 25,000 
250 GRPs - 31,250 



(2) MIAMI, FLORIDA 

Affected Congressmen: LARRY SMITH (R - 16th CD) 
Dan Mica (D - 14th CO) 
Clay Shaw (R - 15th CD) 
Bill Lehman (D - 17th CD) 
Claude Pepper (D - 18th CD) 
Dante Fascell (p.r_iJ5--??i 
Estimated Cost: JULIUS PIERCE (Miami contributor) 
100 GRPs - $ 22,500 
ISO GRPs - 33,750 



(3) NEW HAVIN. CONNECTICUT 

Affected Congressman: NANCY JOHNSON (R - 6th CD) 

Barbara Kennelly (0 - 1st CO) 
Sam Gejdensen (O - 2nd CD) 
Bruce Morrison (D - 3rd CD) 
John Rowland (R - Sth CD) 



BARBARA NEWINGTON (Greenwich, Ct. contributoi 
OLD caunT • mus kmos — sox sia, ••ooklanovilll mahtuuio iiexi (mi) zm-suo 



481 



the robert goodman agency^ inc. 

The American Conservative Trust 
"Freedom Fighters" TV 

Page Two 



New Haven, ct. (Continued) 

Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - $ 6,500 
150 CRfs - 9,750 



(4) AUSTIN, TEXAS 

Affected Congressmen: 



J.J. Pickle (D - 10th CD) 
Marvin Leath <D - 11th CD) 
Mac Sweeney (R - 14th CD) 
Tom Loeffler (R - 21st CD) 



ELLEN GARWOOD (Austin Contributor) 

Estimated Cost: 

150 GRPs - $ 3,000 
200 GRPs - 4,000 



(5) CEDAR RAPIDS /WATERLOO, IOWA 

Affected Congressmen: TOM TAUKE (R - 2nd CO) 

COOPER EVANS (R - 3rd CD) 
Jim Leach (R - 1st CD) 
Estimated Cost: ^"^^ GUNDERSON" (R - Wisconsin 3rd CD) 
100 GRPs - $ 2,000 
150 GRPs - 3,000 



Ois COURT amuLS MAM — SOI sii.siioo«ukN0nus.iiuimjMeaieas (Mt)xM-u3e 



482 



the rohert goodman ageneyf inr. 

The American Conservative Trust 
"Freedom Fighters" TV 

Page Three 



(6) BANGOR, MAINE 



Affected Congressmen: 


OLYMPIA SNOWE (R - 


2nd CD) 




John McKernan (R - 


1st CD) 


Estimated Cost: 






100 GRPs - $ 


1,000 




150 GRPs - 


1,500 





(7) LA CROSSE/EAU CLAIRE, WISCONSIN 

Affected Congressmen: STEVE GUNDERSON (R - 3rd CD) 

Robert Kastenmeier (D - 2nd CD) 
Thomas Petri (R - 6th CD) 
David Obey (D - 7th CD) 
Tim Penny (D - Minnesota 1st CD) 



Estimated Cost: 




100 GRPs - $ 


1,500 


150 GRPs - 


2,250 



(8) CINCINNATI, OHIO 

Affected Congressmen: 



BILL GRADISON (R - 1st CD) 
Thomas Lukcn (D - 2nd CD) 
Bob McEwcn (R - 6th CD) 
Thomas Kindness (R - 8th CD) 
Gene Snyder (R - Kentuc)cy 4th CD) 
Lee Hamilton (D - Indiana 9th CD) 



OCD COURT • mUS DOAM — MI SIZ. IIIOOKUtNOVIIXI, MAKTUUIO ZIOU (jOl) XM-SUO 



483 



the robert goodman agencyy inc. 

The American Conservative Trust 
"Freedom Fighters" TV 



Page Four 




Cincinnati, Ohio 


(Continued) 


Estiinated Coat: 




100 GRPs 


- $ 4,000 


ISO GRPs 


6,000 



(9) CLEVELAND, OHIO 

Affected Congressmen: 



RALPH REGULA (R - 16th CD) 
Michael Oxley (R - 4th CD) 
Del Latta (R - Sth CD) 
Dennis Eckert (D - 11th CD) 
Don Pease (D - 13th CD) 
John Seiberling (D - 14th CD) 
Doug Applegate (D - 18th CD) 
Edward Feighan (0 - 19th CD) 
Mary Rose Oa)car (D - 20th CD) 
Louis Stolces (0 - 21st CD) 



Estimated Cost: 




100 GRPs - $ 


6,000 


150 GRPS - 


9,000 



(10) HARitlSBURG/YORK/LANCASTER/LEBAWON. PENNSYLVANIA 

Affected Congressmenf BILL GOODLING (R - 19th CD) 
Robert Wal)cer (R - 16th CD) 
George Gekas (R - 17th CO) 



A 0OT.6O97 

Oko COURT • muj MAM — toi tu. BuooKuuioviux, MAirruae awtt (wi) iM-sue 



484 



the robert goodman agency, inc. 

The American Conservative Trust 
"Freedom Fighters" TV 

Page Five 

Harrisburg/York/Lancaster/Lebanon, Pa. (Continued) 



Estimated Cost: 








100 


GRPs - 


$ 


3, 


,000 


150 


GRPs 




4, 


,500 



(11) PHILADELPHIA. PENNSYLVANIA 

Affected Congressmen: GUS YATRON (D - 6th CO) 

LAWRENCE COOGHLIN (R - 13th CO) 

Tom Foglietta (0 - 1st CO) 

William Gray (D - 2nd CD) 

Robert Borsici (D - 3rd CO) 

Richard Schulze (R - 5th CO) 

Bob Edgar (0 - 7th CO) 

Peter Kostaayer (D - 8th CO) 

Don Rltter (R - 15th CD) 

Robert Wallcer (R - 16th CD) 

Tom Carper (0 - At-Large, Delaware) 

Jim Florlo (0 - New Jersey 1st CO) 

William Hughes (0 - New Jersey 2nd CD) 



Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - $ 12,500 
150 GRPs - 18,750 



A (:)0T-6098 

okDcouiT*nusM*M->Misit. ■MonjMovHii.iwiiTUNoawtt (aei)ass-tsM 



485 



the rohert goodman agency^ inc. 

The Americ4P QlMMF^^ive Tiust 
"Freedom 

Pag* Six 



(12) ROCKFORD, ILLINOIS 

Affected Congressmen: LYNN MARTIN (R - 16th CD) 

John Grotberg (R - 14th CD) 
Lea Aspin (D - Wisconsin Ist CD) 
Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - $ 2,000 
ISO GRPs - 3,000 



(13) KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI 
Affected Congressmen: 



JAN MEYERS (R - Kansas 3rd CD) 
Jim Slattery (D - Kansas 2nd CD) 
Bob WhittaJcer (R - Kansas 5th CD) 
lk» S)celton (D - Missouri 4th CD) 
Alan Wheat (D - Missouri 5th CD) 
Thomas Coleman (R - Missouri 6th CD) 



Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - $ 5,000 
150 GRPs - 7,500 



(14) SEATTLE/TACOMA. WASHINGTON 

Affected Congressmen: JOHN MILLER (R - 1st CD) 
Al Swift (0 - 2nd CD) 
Don Bon)cer (0 - 3rd CD) 
Sid Morrison (R - 4th CD) 
Norm Dic)cs (D - 6th CD) 
Mi)ie Lowry (D - 7th CD) 
Rod Chandler (R - 8th CD) 

OLD COURT • MUS MAD* — SOX Sit, SMOaKLANOVlUX MAItTUUtO IIOU (Ml) XM-SJJO 



486 



the rohert goodman ageneyy inc. 

The American Conservative Trust..^! 
"Freedom" Fighters* TV 

Page Seven 



Seattle/Tacoma, Wash. (Continued) 

Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - 9 6,500 
ISO GRPs - 9,750 



(15) ROCHESTER, NEW YORK 
Affected Congressmen: 



FRANK HORTON (R - 29th CD) 
Fred EcJtert (R - 30th CD) 
Jack Kemp (R - 31st CD) 
John LaFalca (D - 32nd CD) 



Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - $ 2,500 
150 GRPs - 3,750 



(16l TULSA, OKLAHOMA 

Affected Congressmen i 



JIM JONES (D - 1st CD) 
Mi)ce Synar (D - 2nd CO) 
Wes Watklns (D - 3rd CD) 
Miclcey Edwards (R - 5th CD) 



Estiaated Costi 










100 


GRPa 


- 


$ 


3, 


,500 


150 


GRPs 


- 




5, 


,250 



ouoou«T*MusM«M — •extia.MooKUMWiui.MMrruMoaian (>M)tM-Bue 



A 0036100 



487 



the robert goodman agencyj inc. 

The American Conservative Trust 
"Freedom Fighters" TV T yr 

Page Eight 



(17) ALBUQUERQUE. NEW MEXICO 

Affected Congressmen: BILL RICHAJU)SON (D - 3rd CD) 
Manuel Lujan (R - lit CD) 
Joe S)ceen (R - 2nd CD) 
Michael Strang (R - Colorado 3rd CD) 
Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - $ 2,500 
150 GRPs - 3,750 



(18) BEAUMONT, TEXAS 

Affected Congressmen: CHARLES WILSON (D - 2nd CD) 
Jac)c Brooks (D - 9th CD) 



Estimated Cost: 








100 


GRPs - 


$ 


2, 


,000 


150 


GRPs - 




2, 


,500 



(19) GREENSBORO. NORTH CAROLINA 

Affected Congressmen: STEPHEN NEAL (D - 5th CD) 
BILL HEFNER " (0 - 2nd CD) 



Estimated Cost: 



Tim Valentine (0 - 2nd CO) 
Bill Cobey (R - 4th CD) 
Howard Coble (R - 6th CD) 
Alex McMillan (R - 9th CD) 



100 GRPs - $ 3,500 
150 GRPs - 5,250 

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488 



the rohert goodman agency^ inc. 

Tha Anarican Conservativa Trust 
"Freedom Fighters" TV 

Page Nina 



(20) CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA 

Affected Congressman: STEPHEN NEAL (D - 5th CD) 
BILL HEFNER (D - 8th CO) 
Alex McMillan (R - 9th CD) 
Jim Broyhill (r - loth CD) 
Bill Bendon (R - 11th CD) 
John Spratt (D - South Carolina 5th CD) 

Estimated Cost: 

100 GRPs - $ 5,000 
150 GRPs - 7,500 



(21) 



DALLAS. TEXAS 
Affected Congressman: 



CHARLES WILSON (D - 2nd CD) 
Sam Hall (D - 1st CD) 
Steve Bartlatt (R - 3rd CD) 
Ralph Hall (D - 4th CD) 
John Bryant (D - 5th CD) 
Joe Barton (R - 6th CD) 
Marvin Leath (D - 11th CD) 
Jim Wright (D - 12th CD) 
Charles Stenholm (D - 17th CD) 
Martin Frost (D - 24th CD) 
Dick Amay (R - 26th CD) 



Estimated Costt 

100 GRPs - $ 12,500 
150 GRPs - 18,750 



010 oouirr • nms roam — soi tii. mookumoviui. masvlmo imu (sei) tm-**aa 



489 



the robert goodman agencyy inc. 

Th« American Conservative Trust 
"Freedom Fighters" TV 

Page Ten 



(22) SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 

Affected Congressmen: EO ZSCHAU (R - 12th CO) 
Doug Bosco (D - 1st CO) 
Gene Chappie (R - 2nd CD) 
Vic Fazio (0 - 4th CD) 
Sale Burton (0 - Sth CO) 
Barbara Boxer (D - 6th CO) 
George Miller (D - 7th CD) 
Ron Oellums (D - Sth CD) 
Pete Starlc (D - 9th CD) 
Don Edwards (0 - 10th CO) 
Tom Lantos (D - 11th CO) 
Norman Mineta (D - 13th CD) 

Estiaated Coat: 

100 GRPs - $ 17,500 
150 GRPs - 26,250 



NOTE: All Congressman listed in CAPS above are among the 21 
Reps, targeted by Rich Miller... 



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N'. riONAL SECURITY COUNCIL 
W/.MIINCTON OC »0>0» 



..{■ ,...-/■ 



Auqus^ i*r. 198S 

Dear Spitz: 

Throughout the struggle for freedom and democracy in Nicaragua, 
there are those who have carried this great burden with 
dedication and a true sense of patriotism. You and the people 
involved in the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty are at the center of the struggle. 

In the Spring when we began our campaign to help the Nicaraguan 
resistance in a crucial struggle for democracy in their native 
land, your resources help.ed carry the' day. Without your fine 
efforts, their situation would have gone from desperate to 
hopeless. Yours was a key organization in supporting President 
Reagan's legislative initiative for Congressional aid to the 
Nicaraguan freedom fighters. Your paid advertising and support 
of the President's program was cri,tical to our success. 

In July vhen you began ^o help educate others to the needs of the 
Nicaraguaji freeoom fighters, their chances were greatly 
increased. The special events* you hosted and the generous 
support your people g^ve carried the day and helped to 'save 
freedom fxoai extinction in Nicaragua. Your continuing efforts 
have two very special valuers.' The level of support you have 
brought to t'he struggle has beei) nothing short of monumental. 
The steadfastness and commitment .'you have maintained is the true 
sign of patriotism. When freedom and democracy are at stake, 
those who sacrifice without public acclaim it to the world are 
our truest patriots. 

The programs you have undertaken are crucial. Without the means 
you. provide, those who seek a democratic outcome in Nicaragua 
will fail. As always, in the hour of critical need, we find you 
and the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty ready 
to h^lp. 

For your past efforts and your present initiatives, we salute 
you. 



Sincerely, 



1^^=^ 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mr. Carl Russell Channel 
National Endowment for the 

Preservation of Liberty 
305 4th Street, N.E. 
Washington, D.C. 30002 



492 



CONRDENTIAL ----- '-■' CONROENTIAL 

August 15, 19SS 

Dear Spitz: 

ThrouGhout the struggle for freedom and democracy in Nicaragua, 
there are those who have carried this great burden with 
dedication and a true sense of patriotism. You and the people 
involved in the National Endowment for the Pieservation of 
Liberty are at the center of the struggle. 

In the Spring when we began our campaign to help the Nicaraguah 
resistance in a crucial struggle for democracy in their native 
land, your resources helped carry the day. Without your fine 
efforts, their situation would have gone from desperate to 
hopeless. Yours was a key organization in supporting President 
Reagan's legislative initiative for Congressional aid to the 
Nicaraguan freedom fighters. Your paid advertising and support 
of the President's program v.as critical to our success. 

In July when you began to help educate others to the needs of the 
Nicaraguan freedom fighters, their chances were greatly 
increased. The special events* you hosted and the generous 
support your people gave carried the day and helped to save 
freedom from extinction in Nicaragua. Your continuing efforts 
have two very special values. The level of support you have 
brought to the struggle has been nothing short of monumental. 
The steadfastness and commitment you have maintained is the true 
sign of patriotism. When freedom and democracy are at stake, 
those who sacrifice without public acclaim it to the world are 
our truest patriots. 

The programs you have undertaken are crucial. Without the means 
you provide, those who seek a democratic outcome in Nicaragua 
will fail. As always, in the hour of critical need, we find you 
and the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty ready 
to help. 

For your past efforts and your present initiatives, we salute 
you . 

Sincerely 



Oliver ].. North 
D'-f'Uty r>iri-rtor 
Po 111 jrfll- Military Affflii 



Mr. C.jrl huproll Ch.innol 
Nfltict..! Fndf.wn..-n1 (<.r 1 li' 

If tr i-i v<it 1 1 .n <if 1. 1 1.< 1 I > 
U' 41 h r.t r.-. I , N . 1.. 

I. ,■ I, . I,.;' . ■!, , li.i . . I.I.". 

A 0034802 



J 



493 

*<««' I u«»« It ffutiutnutt (ij/«'ii«-{|, inc. 

"Freedom Spots" Television 
Placement Profile: Costs k Options 

August, 1985 

I . TARGETED MARKETS: Coverage i Costs 





TV Market 


Market 


Ranking 


NEW YORK 


1 


DALLAS/FT. WORTH 


8 


WASHINGTON, D.C. 


9 


HOUSTON 


10 


MIAMI/ 


14 


FT. LAUDERDALE 




HARTFORD /NEW HAVEN 22 


SAN ANTONIO 


44 


RICHMOND/ 


55 


CHARLOTTESVILLE 




AUSTIN 


81 


JACKSON 


84 


Total; 


s: 



% of U.S. Estimated Cost 

Television per GRP* 

S 300. 

145. 

93. 

125. 

106. 



80. 
44. 
28. 





.721 




.77 




.75 




.69 




.36 




.94 




.62 




.52 




.34 




.32 



27. 
18. 



17.03%** 



'Cost estimates are based on projected third quarter televisic 
spot rates using the following sample schedule formula: 

10% Daytime (9A-4:30P, M-F) 

20% Early Evening (4:30-7:3OP, non-news, f 

20% Early News (5-7P, M-F) 

20% Prime Time (8-llP. M-Sa; 7-llP, Sun.) 

20% Late News (11-11 :30P, M-F) 

10% Late Night (11:30P-1A, M-F) 

••This percentage of the nation's television viewers tr.mrljtc 
into 38,054,046 people (NOTE: Without New York, we won Ul st: 
reach 17,250,572 viewers...) 

JJOI CM.0 COom »0«0 •»llll»0»l »»»Ti.«>.r) JliMHOn J9t suo 

A 0075bi5 



494 



the rohert gootlmati ageiwy^ iiw. 



Page Two 



II. PLACEMENT BUDGET OPTIONS: Costs k Frequencies 

A- Preferred Plan -- All Markets -- 300 GRPs (approx. 
25-30, 60-second spots per market) 



New York $ 180,000. 

Dallas/Ft. Worth 87,000. 

Washington, D.C. 55,800. 

Houston 75,000. 

Miami/Ft. Lauder. 63,600. 

Hartford/N. Haven 48,000. 

San Antonio 26,400. 

Richmond/C'ville 16,800. 

Austin 16,200. 

Jackson 10,800. 



5 579,600. 



•••Frequency Distribution per Market: 

IX --- 93% 

2X — - 67% 

3X -~ 45% 

4X -— 30% 

5X — - 20% 



'••This refers to the number of times an average viewer 
in a particular market sees a spot or series of spots.. 
In the frequency table above, reflecting a TV buy of 
300 GRPs in each of the ten selected Markets, 93% of 
the total audience in each market will see our spot 
one time (IX), - 67% of the audience will see it twice (2X) 
45% three times (3X); and so on... 



A 0075bl= 



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496 



September ;•, 1909 



MEMO TO: Rich » Frank 



From: Dan Conrad 



RE: October Objectives 



Here are our requlreaenta for the aonth of October. 

Q 1. RR letter to ACT/HEPL 

f-_ — 2. RR letter to Barbara Mewln^ton 

^ — 3. RR neetln^ with Barbara Nevin^toD 

4. RR aeetln^ with Bunker Hunt, Ellen Garwood. Fred Sacher ft Varas 

(^ -^ 5. Ellen Garwood letter to RR 

6. RR meeting with ACT/NEPL personnel 

I. dinner with Pat Buchanan 

a. Pat Buchanan letter to ACT/NEPL 

9. RR to Conservative Conference in DeceBber 

IB. RR -f HcFarlane to October I7th aeetlBf 

I I . dinner vltb Don Refan 

12. Pat Buchannan to attend October 17th aeetlnf 

17. meeting with Ocorce Buab 

14. Prank: ^et article on Ellen Garwood in Vaahin^ton Times by 
1«/17 



497 



DINNER ATTENDEES 
October 17, 1985 



Attendee 

1. Dr. Mary J. Adamklewlcz 

2. Mrs. Patricia D. Beck 

3. Mr. Benjamin T. Borelll 

4. Mr. Robert Henry Brandenburger 

5. Mr. J. Clifton Caldwell 

6. Mr. Adolfo Calero 

7. General Thomas Camp, Jr. 

8. Mrs. Margaret Forsythe Camp 

9. Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

10. Mrs. Barbara Bullitt Christian 

11. Miss Jacqueline M. Clemens 

12. Mr. Daniel Lynn Conrad 

13. Miss Angela J. Davis 

14. Mr. Robert Bruce Ferguson 

15. Mrs. St. John Garwood 

16. Mr. Francis D. Gomez 

17. Mr. I. Robert Goodman 

18. Mr. Michael Adam Goodman 

19. Mr. Tatnall Lea Hlllman 

20. Mr. Jeffrey M. Keffor 

21. Mr. John E. Krachik 

22. Mr. Krishna S. Llttledale 

23. Mrs. Evelyn McKlnley 

24. Mr. Richard R. Miller 

25. Major General George S. Patton 

26. Mr. Nolan Pentecost 

27. Mrs. Mary Jo Pentecost 

28. Mr. John W. Ramsey 

29. Mrs. Nancy A. Ramsey 

30. Mr. Fred R. Sacher 

31. Mrs. Ruth Sacher 

32. Mr. F. Clifton Smith 

33. Mr. David Harold Warm 

34. Mrs. Paula Warm 

35. Mr. Roger Wllklns 





Table 


Host 


Number 


Dan 


2 


Cliff 


3 


Staff 


7 


Kris 


4 


Rich 


5 


Spitz 


1 


Cliff 


3 


Cliff 


3 


Spitz 


1 


Dan 


2 


Staff 


7 


Dan 


2 


Staff 


7 


Rich 


5 


Spitz 


1 


Frank 


6 


Frank 


6 


Kris 


4 


Dan 


2 


Staff 


7 


Frank 


6 


Kris 


4 


Dan 


2 


Rich 


5 


Cliff 


3 


Kris 


4 


Kris 


4 


Rich 


5 


Rich 


5 


Frank 


6 


Frank 


6 


Cliff 


3 


Spitz 


1 


Spitz 


1 


Staff 


7 



498 



TABLE SEATINGS 
October 17. 1985 



Table 1: Carl Russell Channell 
Mr. Adolfo Calero 
Mrs. St. John Garwood 
Mr. David Harold Warm 
Mrs . Paula Warm 



Table 2: Daniel Lynn Conrad 

Dr. Mary J. AdamJciewicz 

Mrs. Barbara Bullitt Christian 

Mr. Tatnall Lea Hillman 

Mrs. Evelyn McKinley 



Table 3: F. Clifton Smith 

Mrs. Patricia D. Beck 
Major General George S. Patton 
General Thomas Camp, Jr. 
Mrs. Margaret Forsythe Camp 

Table 4: Krishna S. Littledale 
Mrs. Nolan Pentecost 
Mr. Nolan Pentecost 
Mr. Michael Adam Goodman 
Mr. Robert Henry Brandenburger 



Table 5: Richard R. Miller 

Mr. John W. Ramsey 
Mrs. Nancy A. Ramsey 
Mr. Robert Bruce Ferguson 
Mr. J. Clifton Caldwell 



Table 6: Francis D. Gomez 

Mr. I. Robert Goodman 
Mr. Fred R. Sacher 
Mrs. Ruth Sacher 
Mr. John Krachik 

Table 7: Benjamin T. Borelll 
Roger Wllkins 
Miss Angela J. Davis 
Jeffrey M. Keffer 
Miss Jacqueline M. Clemons 



A OOT-4900 



499 



THURSDAY 
October 17, 1985 

8:30 Hay-Adams, Coffee - Ramsey ft Green 

Mrs. Barbara Bullitt Christian, Driving 

1:00 Mr. John Krachlk, Private Plane, Butler Aviation 
(Kris will pick up) 

1:25 Mr. ft Mrs. David Warm, Dulles. Republic Airlines 
(Cliff will pick up) 

1:38 Mr. ft Mrs. Pentecost, Mrs. McKlnley, Mr. Caldwell 
National Airport. Flight 1730 
(Cliff will pick up) 

2:59 Major General George S. Patton, National, Eastern 
185 (Cliff will pick up) 

5:21 Mrs. Garwood, National, American 800 
(Roger will pick up) 

5:14 Mr. Bob Ferguson, National, American 278 
(Kris will pick up) 

5:30 Leave Hay-Adams 

6:00 Indian Treaty Room 

7:45 Reception 

8:15 Dinner 

9:00 Program 

11:00 Adjourment 



500 



CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM BRIEFING 
October 17. 1985 



6:00 Greetings and Welcome 

Llnas Kojells, Associate Director. Public Llason 
Office 

6:05 Introduction of Pat Buchannan 

Llnas Kojells 

6:06 Remarks 

Pat Buchannan 

6:16 Introduction of Col. Oliver North 
Pat Buchannan 

6:17 Military Update 

Col. Oliver North 

6:47 Introduction of Spitz Channell 
Llnas Kojells 

6:48 Introduction of Fred Sacher 4 Film 
Spitz Channell 

6:55 Viewing of Film 

7:10 + A 

7:20 Adjournment 

Spitz Channell 



A 00T49<:C 



501 



CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM DINNER 
October 17, 1985 

7:45 Reception/cocktails 

8:15 Dinner 

9:00 Opening Remarks 
Spitz Channell 

9:10 Introduction of Frank Gomez 
Spitz Channell 

9:11 Review of Briefing Packet Contents 
Frank Gomez 

9:15 Discussion of Need for Public Diplomacy Program 
Frjuik Gomez 

9:35 Introduction of Bob Goodman 
Frank Gomez 

9:36 Importance of the Public Diplomacy Program 
Bob Goodman 

9:45 Introduction of Adolpho Calero 
Spitz Channell 

9:46 Remarks 

Adolfo Calero 

9:56 Introduction of Commandantes 
Adolfo Calero 

9:58 Remarks 

Commandantes/Frank Gomez translates 

10:15 Presentation of Awards to Senior Patriots 

Spitz Channell, Commandantes. Frank Gomez translates 

10:30 UNO Leaders ft Commandantes Leave 

10:30 Description of Friends of Freedom Program 

Spitz Channell 

10:45 Request for Participation In Friends of Freedom 

Program -- Spitz Channell, Table Hosts 

10:50 Adjournment 

Spitz Channell 



502 



FRIDAY 
October 18. 1985 

8:00 Ellen Garwood, breakfast In the Grill 

9:00 Mr. 4 Mrs. David Warm 

9:30 Patty Beck 

12:27 Mrs. Garwood departs from National, American 467 
Mr. ft Mrs. Ramsey depart from National, American 

4:30 Inman Brandon 

5:00 Christian, Adamkiewicz 4 3rd person 

5:30 Nolan and Mary Jo Pentecost and Mrs. McKlnley 



503 



FRIDAY 
October 18. 1985 

8:00 Ellen Garwood, breakfast In the Grill 

9:00 Mr . 4 Mrs. David Warm 

9:30 Patty Beck 

12:27 Mrs. Garwood departs from National, American 467 
Mr. ft Mrs. Ramsey depart from National, American 

4:30 Inman Brandon 

^■^b^ . 9« Christian, Adamkiewicz * 3rd person 

S^^ Nolan and Mary Jo Pentecost and Mrs. McKinley 



*h<^ 



W^^ 



n^ 



;iT.55T9 



504 



FRIDAY 
October 18, 1985 



^'7 



0< 



^^?. 



vA^ 



Ellen Garwood, breakfast In her room 

Mr. A Mrs. David Warm 

Patty Beck 

Mrs. Garwood departs from National. American 467 

Mr. A. Mrs. Ramsey depart from National, American 

Inman Brandon 

Christian, Adamklewlcz A 3rd person 

Kolan ana Mar, Jo P.nt.cost ;, -yWb, '](m^'jd.A, 



A^^ 
-\^\ s^'- 








UCf^ 




A 0037516 



505 



TMt WHITC MOUSE 

BBIEFINC rOR THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT 
FOR THE PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 

6:00 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. Thursday, November 21, 1985 



6:00 p.m. Welcome -- Mr. Linas Kojelis, Special Assistant to 

the President for Public Liaison 

Reirar)(S — Ms. Linda Chavez, Deputy Assistant to 
the President and Director of the Office of 
Public Liaison 

6:10 p.n. "Central America - A Review and Update" -- Lt . 

Col. Oliver North, Deputy Director, Office of 
Political-Military Affairs, National Security 
Council 

7:10 p.m. Film -- "The Freedom Fighters of Nicaragua: Ar 

Update" 



A 0027064 



506 









WASHINGTON. DC 




i520^' 



Deceaber S, 1985 



Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

President 

Aaerlcan CoDservatlve Trust 

Suite 210 

305 4th St. N.E. 

Washington, D.C. 20002 

My Dear Friend Spltt, 



I wish to thank you for all the support you have provided us 
this year. Now we need your support to help several hundred 
faoilles who reoained in Nicaragua. These women and children 
have been expropriated by the Sandinistas and are constantly 
harrassed and intlaldatod. All because a Benber of their family 
has Joined our struggle for freedoa. These people have been 
deprived of even the basic aeans to survive in Communist Nicaragua. 

The brave decision these faallles make to stand and silently 
help our struggle It their coaaltaent. They intend to provide us 
Information and assistance in our country. This will cost them a 
great deal. Their Christmas will be hard and lean. 

We aak your help, as you have done so well in the past, to 
keep these families alive. We need $50,000.00 dollars through 
the holiday season. Please help us to sustain those who have 
stayed behind so that those of us on the front lines can survive. 

God bless you for your past efforts and constant faith in 



Sincerely, 



.■^^.^' c, 



■\ 



507 



D«c«Bbar 18, 1985 

Ai of today, 43 groups hava agraad to b« Participating 
Organizations: 



Foundat^flp (c Spitz Ch^nnall 
Trust ( fSpitz Channall)'^ ' 
Trust Start Eisctlon Pund ( 



Accuracy in Madia (Raad Irvina) 

Anarican Consarvatlva FoundatJ 

Aaarican Consarvativa Trust ^S 

Anarican Copsarvativa Trust SJtati Eiactlon Pund (fspitz) 

Aaarican Citizans for Political Action (Bob DolanT ' 

American Safcurity Council (John Fishar) 

John M. Ashbrook Cantar for Public Affairs (Clif Whita) 

Canpaign Aoarica (Kirk Clinkanbaard) 

Citizans Coaaittaa for tha Right to Kaap fc Baar Arms (John 
Snydar) 

Citzans for a Sound Economy (Richard Fink) 

Collage Republicer.s (D£"id Miner) 

Consarvativa AlXianca (Bitsay Stone) 

Council for Inter-American Security (Lynn Bouchey) 

Council for tha Dafansa of Freedom (Don Irvine) 

Eagle Forum (Phyllis Schaflay) 

Eberle Direct Marketing Group 

Free Congress Foundation (Paul Heyrich) 

Freedom's Friends (Bill Murray) 

Fund for a Consa rvati ra Maj o rit y - Xgob Heckman) 

Grow Washinqtab (Spitz ChannellL ---^ 

High Frontier (General Danny Graham) 

Moral Majority (Charlie Judd) 

National Conservative Political Action Committee (Terry 
Dolan) 

National Endowment for tha Preservation of Liberty^ 

National Forum Foundation (James Denton) 

National Tax Limitation Conmittaa (Lew Uhler) 

Nofziger-Bragg Communicators 

Jay Parker t Associates 

Public Advocate of the United States, Inc. (Ron Pearson) 

Public Service Research Council (Dave Denholm) 

Response Dynami cs, I nc. (Ron Kanfer) 

Russo, w**t8 k Kollins—fBd. Rollins) 

Santin ^ iSpitz Ch annall) ) 

Ann E.W. Stone I AilfiClhtes, Inc. 

The Conservative Caucus Foundation (Howard Phillips) 

The Fund for an American Renaissance (Jim Roberts) 

The National Congressional Club (Carter Wrenn) 

U.S. Council for World Freedom (General Singlaub) 

United States Justice Foundation (Jim Lacy) 

Western Goals Foundation (Linda Cuell) 

Young America's Foundation (Ron Robinson) 
^ Young Conservative Foundation (David Finzer) 

Young Vietnamese for Freedom (Troung Quang Si) 

7 TJoa l^U/^^ 



/ 



508 



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11-4502 Han OrapMc* Mc (12«3) 



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510 



CENTRAL AMERICAN PROPOSAL 



John T. iTeriy) Dolar. 



January 6, 1986 



511 



INDEX 



page 



Purpose 

Strategy 

Key Questions 

Aspects of the campaign 



Field staff & in-district 
lobbying 



Public relations 

Lobbying 

Direct Mail 

Advertising 

Staff needs 

Target list 

Budget 

Cash flow needs — 



5 

6 
6 

7 
9 

11 

13 



512 



*To educate the public on the dangers of a 
communist taXeover in Central America through the 
activities oi a 501(c) (3) entity; and, 



*To lobby Congress to pass continuing aid 
to Nicaraguan Freedom Fighters. 



1 - 

A 0075=.7 = 



513 



STRATEGY 



There is little doubt that Congress and the 
public are plagued with the Vietnjun Syndrome. They 
are very reluctant to get Ajiierica involved in any 
Central American conflict, rlespite the potential 
dangers of failure to act. But, in fact, there are 
two competing majorities on Central America: one 
majority is isolationist, while the other is anti- 
communist. For example, polling data shows that 
people instantly change their minds about Central 
America and support American involvement there, when 
confronted with the facts of communist control of 
Central America, the possibility of large numbers of 
refugees, and the possible use of Central America to 
launch a nuclear attack against America. Virtually 
every survey shows the American public is grossly 
ignorant about Central America, (see attached addendum) 

The purpose of this campaign will be to refocus 
the issue away from isolationism towards the issue 
agenda that will increase public support for Ronald 
Reagem's position in Central America. By educating 
the public and framing the debate so that undecided 
members of Congress begin to sense grassroots pressure, 
the liklihood of further aid to the Contras will be 
increased dramatically. 

It is critical that there be a two-track effort. 
A strong Washington lobbying presence will not be half 
as effectj.ve if it is not accompanied by a strong grass- 
roots response in the form of in-district lobbying. 
Central America, unlike other foreign policy issues, 
is very difficult to understand. One of our biggest 
problems will be simplifying it so that the average 
voter will understand and contact his Congressman. 



2 - 

rt 00 7 5&80 



514 




KEY QUESTIONS 



Several key questions must be answered betore 
a complete strategy can be developed. 

(1) How public does this campaign intend to be? 
There is great value in a splashy announcement of a 
multi-million dollar campaign. The idea of the bank 
book will get press credibility and scare some members 
of Congress. However, it also opens the whole effort 
to press scrutiny, including the nanes of contributors. 
On the other hand, any multi-mill Lon dollar effort on 
a hot issue is bound to attract attention, whether 
it's wanted or not. 



(2) Do we focus activities on a small group of 
high-publicity Congressmen and broaden the campaign 
for as many as fifty Congressmen? 3y keeping the 
list of targets to a small number (5-10) , you insure 
that each effort will be more effectively run than 
a larger number. The strategy would be to intinidate 
other Congressmen into voting right, based on what 
they see is happening to their colleagues. This would 
involve a large media presence in Washington, D.C. 
Of course there would be activities in other Congress- 
men's districts, but not the same level as the targeted 
Congressmen's districts. 



(3) Docs this organization plan to continue after 
the next vote, and if so, is there a desire to expand 
its grassroots activities? If the answers are "yes" 
to both, then the budget should be rewritten to 
incorporate a larger direct mail campaign. 



- 3 - 

rt 0075681 



515 



ASPECTS OF THE CAMPAIGN 



(1) Field Staff and In-district Lobbying - Fulltime 
coordinators should be hired for a selected number of 
Congressmen's districts. They should have the 
principle responsibilities of: 

(a) Recruiting and organizing a prestigious group 
of community leaders to form a local affiliate. This 
committee will have the primary responsibility of 
overseeing the lobbying effort in that district. 

(b) Generating favorable media coverage through 
local events and activities, as well as arranging for 
media coverage of national personalities, such as 
contra leaders, victims of Nicaraguan atrocities and 
others . 

(c) Generating no less than fifty documentable, 
loboying contacts per Congressional district per 
week. These contacts should prefereably be in the 
form of personal group meetings with the Congressman 
in his district office. It can also taXe the form 
of letters and phone calls to the local and Washing- 
ton offices. 

(d) Coordinating local advertising. Each 
Congressional district (or media market) should be 
given a budget for newspaper, radio and television 

ads, which will be at least partially the responsibility 
of local coordinators. For example, a newspaper ad 
featuring local supporters of our efforts would require 
the coordinator getting large numbers of signers. 



(2) Public Relations - A two-tracJc public relations 
effort should be undertaken. The first part would be 
a national effort focused primarily in opinion-making 
centers, such as New York, Washington, and Los Angeles. 
It would include a regular series of news conferences, 
news releases, actualities, editorial opinion pieces 
and other activities. Spokesmen for this effort should 
include contra leaders and victims of Nicaraguan 
atrocities. For example, we should attempt to get 
Pedro Chamovo, former editor of La Premza, before every 
editorial board possible and the National Press Club 
to scare the media. If we convince editors and reporters 



A 0075e>82 



516 




that the Nicaraguan govariunent is attacking thair 
fellow nedia people, this will draniatically reduce 
media support for Nicaragua. 

It is possible to hire a Hollywood personality 
or sports figure to head up this drive, similar to 
what Ronald Reagan did for General Electric. While 
this might be expensive, it could generate a great 
deal of favorable media coverage. 

The second part of the public relations effort 
would be primarily focused on local in-district 
activities, such as petition drives, meetings, and 
any other ideas local groups generate. At the same 
time as national spokesmen circulate throughout the 
country, they will certainly be sent to these targeted 
congressional districts. It will be the responsibility 
of the local field director to schedule these spokes- 
men for high publicity events, local radio talk shows 
and television program speeches that will generate 
coverage and news conferences. 

I recommend you retain a fulltime public relations 
person or a professional service to coordinate this 
activity. 



(3) Lobbying - Principles of lobbying: start early, line 
up commitments and reinforce constantly until the vote 
occurs. Congressmen and legislative staff should be 
voting right, not purely based on the persuasiveness 
of our position, but on the real fear that if they 
break their word, they will pay a political price for 
doing so. 

I suggest we set up such a sophisticated lobbying 
effort that the White House and Congressional leader- 
ship will be forced to rely on us for an accurate 
vote count. This would require four or five sharp 
lobbyists, plus each Congressional office would be 
contacted approximately every two weeks, and a personal 
relationwhip established with each legislative director. 
By establishing what each target vote is doing, we can 
adopt local lobbying efforts to each set of circum- 
stances. For example, some Congressmen only need gentle 
persuasion, while others will need an outright threat 
of political exposure back home. 



M 0075683 



517 




Tha idea of having a Henry Kissinger character 
is a good one, at least for one-to-one activities. 
His involvement will increase press credibility, and 
a meeting with hin may sway a number of undecided 
Congressmen. 



(4) Direct Mail - The level of direct mail should be 
determined after deciding the long-term plans of the 
campaign. If the interest is to stay in business 
after the next vote on contra aid, then a more aggres- 
sive direct mail effort should be considered. 

Minimally, every targeted Congressional district 
should have a specialized direct mail effort meant 
to accomplish three things: generate lobbying contacts 
to the Congressman; encourage letters to the editor 
to generate press interest; and, recruit membership 
on each local committee. 

Through a number of direct mail services, we can 
generate VIP lists in every Congressional district. 
These lists would include high-dollar contributors 
to the Congressmen, business, labor and media leaders. 
We would also want to get a list of conservative 
activists known for their willingness to call or 
write their Congressmen. 

I would estimate these names to average 15,000 

per Congressional district. They should be mailed 

three times. Smaller segments of the lists can be 
mailed more frequently. 



(5) Advertising - The overall philosophy of advertising 
will change depending on the long-term plans of the 
program. If the intentions are to continue, I would 
recommend focusing more on direct response ads than 
on individual lobbying ads. 

Direct response ads are generally educational 
and feature a toll-free number where viewers can call 
and receive information or volunteer their support. 
They need to be at least sixty seconds in length. 

Stamdard lobbying ads would be focused toward 
individual Congressmen and would be "doughnut" com- 
mercials. Doughnut commercials are ads which have 



A 0075fc£- 



518 



segments which can be changed to focus to each 
Congressman. This saves money, since you don't 
have to produce twenty entirely different messages. 

Newspaper and radio ads should be primarily 
focused on individual targeted Congressmen. But 
the toll-free number should be featured whereever 
possible to get information into the public's hands. 
It IS probable that we may want to consider "educa- 
tional" newspaper ads in major marlcets to help set 
the agenda. 

Advertising themes should be determined by a 
nationwide, public opinion poll. 

It is important that each of these advertising 
programs be well coordinated with each other and 
with direct mail activities. This will maximize the 
amount of grassroots activities generated, and will 
increase the perception of the Congressman that he 
will have political problems if he votes wrong. 

The success of educational ads will depend on 
the overall credibility of this progrsun and the amount 
of money available to put them on the air. They will 
accomplish two things: First, they will frame the 
debate about Central America on our terms, not on the 
opposition's terms. For example, one commercial 
could emphasize the increased threat of nuclear war 
if we do not stop the Sandinistas. Second, it will 
provide a vehicle for people to get information. This 
will be a source of local volunteers and possible 
contributors. 



(6) Staff Heeds - Since this is a five month campaign, 
I recommend that as many functions as possible be 
performed by consulting agencies rather than fulltime 
staff. But there will be a need for certain staff 
memoers. These include: 

(a) An Executive Director and secretarial support 
to coordinate and execute virtually all aspects of this 
campaign. 

(b) Field staffers whose principle responsibilities 
would be to generate grassroots support in targeted 
Congressional districts. 



7 - 

ft 0075&85 



519 



(c) Lobbyists whose principle responsibilities 
would include establishing a vote count, lobbying, 
and Congressional staff briefings. 



A 0075t.5- 



520 



TARGET LIST 



By reviewing the target list by Bozell ( Jacobs, 
I see ninety targets. This is too many. My targeting 
list is bas'ed on their vote analysis, which I would 
like to review. The critical swing members would 
primarily be those who switched after the Ortega 
visit to Moscow, and those that should have. Target 
districts should also take into consideration media 
market size, vulnerability, and the intensity of the 
issue. 

I believe the list can be cut back dramatically 
as lobbying intelligence tells us who we have to worry 
about. I do agree that special attention should be 
paid to the South for three reasons: 

(1) These Congressmen are generally more conser- 
vative. 

(2) The South will bear most of the burden of a 
refugee problem. 

(3) A shockingly high number of these southern 
conservatives voted wrong. 

Special attention should be given to liberal 
Republicans as well. For example, generation of a key 
primary against one or two of then would get a message 
to most of them. 

I do recoonend that the following be definitely 
considered on a super-target list: 

1. Stallings - tough re-election; cheap media 

2. McCloskey - tough re-election 

3. Jones - running for Senate; moderate media costs 

4. Wirth - running for Senate 

5. Leach - liberal Republican; early primary, 

generate an opponent 

6. Dorgan - running for Senate in 1986; cheap media 

7. Daschle - running for Senate in 1986; cheap media 



9 - 

« 007566" 



521 



BUDGET 

Per Month Five Months 
FIELD OPERATIONS 

5 field directors 8$l,800/mon. $ 9,000 S 45,000 

Expenses 10,000 50,000 

Polls (10 polls e$10,000) 20,000 100,000 

TOTAL (Field Operations) S 39,000 $195,000 

PUBLIC RELATIONS 

Consulting fees $ 10,000 $ 50,000 

Travel expenses 20,000 100,000 

Paid Spokesman 25,000 125,000 

'Polling expenses 10,000 50,000 

TOTAL (Public Relations) S 65,000 $325,000 

LOBBYING 

5 Lobbyists 8$2,000/mon. each $ 10,000 $ 50,000 

Expenses and briefing costs 5,000 25,000 

Outside lobbyist consulting fee — 10,000 50,000 

TOTAL (Lobbying) $ 25,000 $125,000 

DIRECT MAIL 

50 targeted Congr. districts $506,250 

(15,000 piece inailing/3 tines) 

(Direct mail will generate 15-20% of cost, 
between $50,000 and $120,000) 



(Budget continued on next page) 



ft 0075688 



522 



P»r Month Five Months 
ADVERTISING 

TV production $ 20,000 

Radio production 5,000 

Newspaper production 5,000 

TV time buys $ 80,000 400,000 

Radio time buys 35,500 175,500 

Newspaper - 2/Congr. district 100,000 

Newspaper - national ads 100,000 

Direct response (costs, fulf illnent) -10,000 50,000 

TOTAL (advertising) $ 125,500 $857,500 

STAFF 

Executive Director $ 2,500 $ 12,500 

3 Secretaries e$l , 500/mon.each — 4,500 22,500 

Office expenses 5,000 25,000 

L«gal consultant 5,000 25,000 

Political consultant 3,000 15,000 

TOTAL (staff) 5 20,000 $100,000 

SUWIARY OF TOTALS 

Field Operations S 195,000 

Public Relations 325,000 

Lobbying • — 125,000 

Direct Mail 506,250 

Advertisiag 857,500 

Staff 100,000 

GRAND TOTAL $2,108,750 



- 12 - 



A 0075t.e9 



523 



CASH FLOW NEEDS 

Jan . Feb . March April May tctrls 

Field Operations $ 39,000 $ 39,000 $ 39,000 $ 39,000 $ 39,000 $195,000 

Public Relations 65,000 65,000 65,000 65,000 65,000 325,000 

Lobbying 25,000 25,000 25,000 25,000 25,000 125,000 

Direct Mail 140,000 65,000 65,000 174,250 62,000 506,250 

AdvfeTtising 150,000 155,000 150,000 297,000 105,500 857,500 

Staff 20,000 20,000 20,000 20,000 20,000 100,000 



■TOERLS $ 439.000 $369.000 $364,000 $620.250 $316.500 $2.108.750 



13 - 

rt 007 5690 



524 



SENTINEL 

Advancing tht Conservative Agenda 



January 16, 1986 



Mrs. Jul lus E. Pl«rc« 



0«ar Mrs. Plsrcs: 



Victory en this aid vots will go a vary long way to, as you 
w«M say, savs Ronald Raagan. 

Pleas* hsip us with ths most gsnsrous grant you can »f'ora. 

This will probably bs ths most Important grant you make for 
the rest of Ronald Reagan's presidency. We win be deeply 
appreciative for your generous contribution made payable to 
Sentinel in this emergency. 

Sentinel Is a lobbying group. I have enclosed a Sentinel 
return envelope for your convenience. 

Sincerely yours. 



Sp I tz Channel I 
Pres I dent 



CRC/aJd 
Enc losure 



A 00?95::i 



1331 Panrwytvanii >Wenu«. N.W.. Washington. D.C. 20004 202-662-8732 



525 



CENTBAL AMZBICA FREEDOM FICHTEB EMEBCENCY PBOCRAM 
FAbruary - March* 1987 

Two •v*nts in th« aproachlnq 7 aoDths will dccid* th« 
outcoaa of tho ttruggl* for Frocdoa In Central Aaarica. 

In Fabruary, Congraaa will dataraina tha ralaaaa of tha 
raaalning $40 Billion of tha 1986 Fraadoa Fightar Aid. 

In Octobar, tha 1987 appropiation, If any, will ba dacidad. 

Both juncturaa ara crucial to tha hopa for fraadoa in 
Nicaragua. If wa losa thaaa, tha dafaat will ba paraanant. We 
will navar again hava thia chanca to altar hiatory and, 
coaauniaa will ba firaly aatabliihad on our aaialand. Ronald 
Baagan'a foraign policy will ba ruinad. . 

OBJECTIVES AND TACTICS: 

Our nuabar ona priority ia to saa that Fraadoa Fightar Aid 
continuaa to flow unintarruptad to tha Fraadoa Fightara. It ia 
iaportant for all of ua to baar in aind that although tha 
Sandiniataa aupoaadly hava ovarwhalaing ailitary powar thay hava 
not yat baan abla to dafaat our Fraadoa Fightara. Tha firat 
task, it followa, ia to inaura tha ralaaaa of tha raaaining $40 
Billion of tha 1986 appropiation. 

Tha thraa facata of thia prograa (congraaaional lobbying, 
aasa aadia, and graaa roota aobilization) , auat ba operating at 
full capacity in tiaa for tha February appropiationa vota. 

Daapita praaa propaganda, Praaidant Baagan'a policy of 
defending deaocracy in our own heaiaphera haa taken root in 
Congreaa. Few Congreaaaan have expreaaed a change of opinion on 
thia aubject ainee our auaaer victory. We feel we have an 
excellent chance of winning again. Both houaea aoat override 
the Preaident in order to atop our help froa reaching the 
FreedoB Fightara. Wa do not believe thia will heppen if we 
act. And we believe that we have an excellent chance of 
enauring that indeed thia laat $40 aillion of tha firat bill is 
releaaed. 

The philoa'ophy behind thia prograa ia to aggregate our 
reaourcea and focua thea on the weykeat pointa. Selected 
"awing-votea" in Congreaa will be targeted to enaura the 
accurate focua of the full force of our efforta. Thia ia not a 
new atrategy, it ia however, a auccaaaful one. 



^> 



526 



<.> 



What w« propes* 1> ■ aultl-projact off*nalv« covaring th« 
■r«as of •4ucatien, 41r«ct labbying, and grass roots 
■eblllzatlOD, to boabard tha targats froa all si4as --but aostly 
within thair own districts. Cssontially, wo aro ropoating our 
hiatory Baking suecassful affort of last suaaar on a auch 
saallar acalo. 

Wa know that ona of tha groat challangos wa, who support 
Fraodea Fightar Aid. faca is tha incradiblo disinforaation baing 
disparsad by a Tast nationwido natwork of ISOO graas roots 
organizations who epanly support tha Sandinista ragiaa. It is 
iaportant, if wa ara to rovorsa tha laad takan by our opposition 
that wa eoaa out fighting en all fronts. 

CONGBESSIONAI. LOBinilO: 

It is crucial to cap a suecassful prograa with a 
profassienal diraet lobbying affort. 

Tha lobbyists forea tha eongtassaan to look at tha issua 
and what it aaans to thair constituonts. Thay alao hold tha 
vital function of "chocking tha pulss*. Thay kaap tabs en tha 
connections between the adainistratiea and a particular 
Congrassaan, who believes what, who could be persuaded. Who is 
on tha fence, and what it will take to bring hia to our side. 

This is an ongoing proeets, which we have continued 
non-stop since last year. It haa guided our targeting of 
swing-votes and it has already been funded. 

MASS MEDIA: 

This prograa will feature two typea of television 
advertising — educational (tax deductible) , and aotivational. 

The Aaericaa Conservative Foundation will sponsor 
educational televiaioa ads. These are designed to begin to 
counteract tha pervasive disinforaation found in newspapers, TV 
news pregraas, and circulating in church and civic groups In tha 
coaa unities. 

Sentinel, our lobbying group, will sponsor the aotivational 
and action ads.. These ada will ask the viewer to take specific 
action, phone hia eongrossaan, write to his newspaper, gat 
involved with pushing the issue. 

The aaaa aedia portion of this prograa will feature both 
televiaien and newspaper advertiaing. Television ads will have 
a 5 X a day frequency, S days a week. Both 30 seconds and 1 
alnute apots will be eaployod. 



A 0029Z2Z 



527 



Nawspapar ada apontorad by both groupa will acho thasa 
thaaaa, will rainforca and axpand tha lapact of tha talavltlon 
■aisagas. 

Budgat 

T.V. tiaa^ 

-20 aadla aarkata for aix wvaka $720,000.00 

-Washington, D.C. for aix waaka 180,000.00 

Production Cost: 

Fiva talavision Basaagaa 40,000.00 

TOTAL $940,000.00 

CKASS BOOTS MOBILIZATION: 

Of tan tlaaa, it is not so such a aattar of how aany paopla 
you hava on your chaaring aquad, but how loudly thay yall. It 
is tha function of thia portion of tha prograa to aaka Sura our 
paopla ara haard LOUO AND CLEAR. 

Tha grass roots program will hava tha function of aducatlng 
paopla and aobilixing thaa to act on thosa baliafs. 

-Activist Natwork: Wa hava accass to a gaographically disparsed 
pra-coaaittad natwork which only lacks diraction, updatad 
inforaation, and channala for thair anargy. 

-Inforaation Buraau: Wa will supply spaakars, books, brochuras, 
filas, nawslattars, ate, to activa aaabars of tha natwork to 
rainforca thair coaaittaant and aid in attracting thair faaily, 
frianda, and collaaguaa to tha causa. 

-Kanagaaant Taaa: Wa will coordinata tha natwork and ansura it 
has accass to all naadad rasourcaa. 

MANACEKEMT TEAM: 

Spitz Channall ia a vataran of 3 saparata Praadoa Plghtar 
Aid battlaa, a qualification faw can aatch. In that tlaa ha has 
coaa to know what worka, and what doasn't. And haa put togather 
an axpariancad and profaaaional organization capabla of handling 
all aapacta of thia prograa. 

Safaal Floraa ia a nativa of Cuataaala and fluant in both 
English and Spaniah. Ha haa baan an iaportant coaponant of the 
two aoat racant victoriaa of Fraadoa Fightar Aid. 



528 



Bafaal has worked continuously with Splti on thla crucial 
vot* and has or^anliad aany public policy caapalgna during his 
caraar. Ba will coordinata tha thraa aras of tha prograa, 
makln? sura that tha aaas aadla, congrasslonal lobbying, and 
grass roots afforts coaplaaant aach othar and act togathar with 
parfact timing. 

Spitz Channall's political btratagy and tha organizational 
abllitlas of Safaal Floras will ba coapllaantad by tha axpartlsa 
of a Flald Dlractor, who will coordinata and suparylsa a taaa of 
alght axpariancad grass roots organlzara (plaasa baar in alnd 
that wa ara assantlally rapaatlng our victory formula of last 
suamar) . In addition, 3 Intarna and 2 sacratarias at a 
stratagically locatad, Washington offlca, will ba rasponslbla 
for coordinating tha information cantar and tha spaakar's 
buraa'i. 



30 TASCST ASZA BKEAXOOWM COST TBaOUCT IS NABCH 1917 

- six waaks - 

Flald Organlzara for 20 districts: 

Taxaa - 2 1/2 

Florida - 2 

Tannassaa - 1 1/2 

North Carolina - 1 

Kantueky - 1 

Salarlas * car, food and lodging 

for 6 waaks $56,000.00 

D.C. Coordinating Croup: 

Safaal Floras 
Fiald Dlractor 
Sacratarias (2) 
Intarna (3) 

Salariaa * effica axpansaa for 

alz waaks 14,300.00 

TOTAL $70,300.00 



529 



"RICAM CCNREHVATIVE TRUST 
"iTreeicr-. FigJ-t-.sLs TV" 
^'atl^jn^.l Spot tiogram 




the rohert gooduuin agency, inc. 

2J01 OLOCOuar IIOAO tAcTIMOIIC MAttTLAMO 2i2at 



530 




220\ OLD COUKT KOAD BALTlMOIIt ««»»L»NO 21J0» 11011 JJ6.53J0 



AMrRlCAM CCNF.F.RVATIVE TRUST 
••J-rtiaic- r-.q'.^ts-js TV" 
Nati-^n:.! Spot: Program 



531 



the robert goodman agency^ inc. 



AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 
"Freedom Fighters TV" 
National Spot Progreun 



The purpose of this national television campaign is 
to reach those voters across the country whose inc-orient 
Congressmen have shewn (by virtue of their voting record) 
a lack of resolve and firm commitment on the issue of helping 
the Contras in Nicaragua. 

Specifically, a list of these Congressman (and their 
home television markets) has been drafted on the basis of 
both their general voting record behavior and their position 
on three key votes on funding the "Freedom Fighters" taken 
in the Spring of 1985. 

By design, this national television spot campaign will 
begi.-. approximately six weeks before the first vote on 
Contra funding is taken m Congress (perhaps by the latter 
part of March). The relative size of the television buys 
in each of the targeted markets, as defined by Gross Rati.-.? 
Points, is as follows: 



Week 1 


250 GRPs 


Week 2 


250 " 


Week 3 


100 " 


Week 4 


100 " 


Week 5 


2 00 •• 


Week 6 


300 " 




1200 GRPs 



With approximately 1200 Gross Rating Points, voters ir 
these targeted television markets would see ACT ' s "Freedom 
Fign^ers" spots an average of twelve times over the course 
of the six-week campaign. This will ensure that the messacs 
will get through to the voters and, ultimately, to the 
affected Congressmen themselves. 



Z20I OLD courr noAD SALTiMoac madtlano 2i2ai (Kii 2«*-um 



532 



the rohert goodman agencyj inc. 



SPOT PROGRAM OPTIONS 

Three distinct placement options have been developed 
for this television campaign to provide the American Conservative 
Trust with some flexibility given the uncertainty of the 
ultimate level of funding for this project. They differ not 
in GRP strength but in the number of television markets 
(and Congressmen) covered. 

A summary of these options, and their relative cost/ 
coverage characteristics, is enclosed. 



Ill . DEADLINES 

As agreed, we are preparing to launch this ad campaicr 
by mid-February. However, given the extraordinary amount c: 
lead time needed to secure access and spot clearance on 
stations in the targeted markets, we need to reach some km; 
of consensus on the anticipated level of funding for this 
project by the end of January. 

The three, 30-second spots planned for this six-vee< 
series (already drafted) can be finished within days of 
fi.Tal copy approval. 



(».^ 



A C077199 



2201 OtO COUHT ROAD (ALTIMOK MAHrutNO 2120* UOII 2««-S330 



533 



therobertgoodmanag^ncy^inc. TELEVISIO 



2201 OLD courr road BALTiMone Maryland 2120a (xn 2M-S3M 



CUCNT: Ajnerican Conservative 
Trust 

product: 

JOB NO. : 

date: 1/21/86 



COMML NO.: 86-330 
title "Choice" 

program: 

AIR DATE 



3 (SECS) 



UVED 

FILMD 

TAPED 



AUDIO 



Contra footage 



Sandinista footage, 
training exercise. 



Squad responding to leader's 
shouts . 

Helicopter into frame. 



More helicoDters. 



Graphic : 

NOW THAT WE KNOW... 

SUPPORT PRESIDENT REAGAN 
ON NICARAGUA 

Presented and paid for by 
The American Conservative 
Trust 



1 
2 
3 

4 

5 
6 

7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
U 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 



Among the Contras of Nicaragua, each 
is a national, each a volunteer, each 
unpaid--yet they succeed as a deiirat; 
force for the freedom of t.heir cour.tr;. 

Across the lines: Nicaraguans forced 
to serve in a Sandinista army new re- 
pressing human and religious rirr.-s. 
Trained, indoctrinated by Cuba a.-.d 3.: 
plied with Soviet arms. All c: -.-: = 
two hours away where a government --'■ 
ister has stated: "Nicaragua will ce 
the door we kick down to liberate tr.e 
United States." 

The time for us to make a choice 15 
. . right now. 



007 TO', 



534 



the robert goodman agency^ inc. TELEVlslOh 

jiOl OtO COOUT l»OAD lALTlMOtE MAHYLAND 21208 (301) 2M-5330 



CUENT: American Conservative 
Trust 

product: 

JOB NO. : 

date: 1/21/86 



COMML NO.: 86-230 30 (SECS) 

TITLE "While Not Aiding" 

program: 

AIR DATE 



UVED 

filmD 

TAPED 



VIDEO 



AUDIO 



Helicopter rotors, pull 
back to see all of Mi-24 in 
training exercise. 



It lands. 



Scenes of .Managua. 



Chopper sce.ies 

Wipe to Contra footage 

Graphic : 

NOW THAT WE KNOW. . . 

SUPPORT PRESIDENT REAGAN 
ON NICARAGUA. 

A Tiessage sponsored and paid 
for by The American Conser- 
vative Trust 



1 Each day there are more of them. 

2 They are Cuban-supplied, Soviet-built 

3 Mi-24 's. And they are here.- 

4 in numbers... on our North American 

5 continent in Nicaragua. And with 

6 the military infiltration, has also zcr.e 

7 the new repressive orders against 

8 church, and press and human ric.-.ts 

9 betraying the people of Nicaragua. 

10 And did this escalation of terror 

11 happen while we were aiding the military 

12 effort of the Contra freedom fighters? 

13 Hardly. It occured. . . when , and perhaps 
1< because . . . .we were not. 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 A oo7 7:ci 

23 

?4 



535 



f 



the rahert goodman agency, inc. TELEVlsiOf 

UOI OLD COURT IK)*0 tALTIMOKE MAKYLANO 2l20a 13011 2M-S330 



ClJENTtAitierican Conservative 

Trust 

product: 

JOB NO. : 

date: 1/21/86 



COMMLNC: 86-130 
TITLE "No Wonder" 

program: 

AIR DATE 



30 (SECS) 



uvec: 

filmD 

TAPED 



Series of dissolves, various 
views of Mi-24 helicopters 
participating in Sandinista 
training exercises. 



Dissolve to Mar.aguan street 
scenes showing faces of the 
people . 



Soft horizontal wipe to 
Contra footage. 



Super graphic over: 

NOW THAT WE KNOW... 

SUPPORT PRESIDENT REAGAN 
ON NICARAGUA. 

A message sponsored and paid 
for by The American Conser- 
vative Trust 



1 VOICE OVER, HEAVY HELICOPTER SFX 

2 Here... is why President Reagan has 

3 been concerned all along about Nic- 
i aragua. Soviet-built Mi-24 helicop- 

5 ter gunships less than fourteen hunc- 

6 red miles from Houston. Arriving 

7 regularly from Cuba. And with therri, 

8 the inevitable betrayal of the Nicar- 

9 aguan people as the Sandinista gcverr.- 

10 ment suspends human, religious and 

11 democratic rights indefinitely. No 

12 wonder there is a Contra force of free- 

13 dom fighting Hicaraguans. 

14 The real wonder is that we argue about 

15 supporting them. 

16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 

23 



536 



the rohert goodman agency, Inc. 



AMERICAN CONSERVATIVF TRUST 

"Freedom Fighters TV" 

National Spot Program 

Placement Option 



OPTION I. 



MIAMI, FLORIDA 

Affected Congressmen: Dante Fascell (D - 19th CD) 

Claude Pepper (D - 18th CD) 
Larry Smith (R - 16th CD) 
E. Clay Shaw, Jr. (R - 15th CD) 
William Lehman (D - 17th CD) 
Dan Mica (D - 14th CD) 

1200 GRPs - $138,000. 
WASHINGTON, DC 
Affected Congressmen: ALL 

1200 GRPs - $125,000. 

HARTFORD/NEW HAVEN, CONNECTICUT 

Affected Congressmen: Nancy Johnson (R - 6th CD) 

Barbara Kennelly (D - 1st CD) 
Sam Gejdensen (D - 2nd CD) 
Bruce Morrison (D - 3rd CD) 
John Rowland (R - 5th CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 99,000. 

ORLANDO, FLORIDA 

Affected Congressmen: Buddy Macicay (D - 6th CD) 

Bill Chappell Jr. (D - 4th CD) 
Bill McCollum (R - 5th CD) 
Bill Nelson (D - 11th CD) 
Andy Ireland (R - 10th CD) 

1200 GRPs - S 60,000. 

A 007 7:r: 



2201 OLD courr aoAO (auimcwc. MjtiiTutNO 21201 (Mil iw-uie 



537 



r 



the robert goodman agency, inc. 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 
"Freedom Fighters TV" 

Page Two 



SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 

Affected Congressmen: Kika De La Garza (D - ISzh CD) 
Al Bustamante (D - 23rd CD) 
J.J. Pic)cle (D - 10th CD) 
Henry B. Gonzalez (D - 20th CD) 
Tom Loeffler (R - 21st CD) 
Mac Sweeney (R - 14th CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 54,000. 

NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 

Affected Congressmen: Bart Gordon (D - 6th CD) 

Jim Cooper (D - 4th CD) 
Ed Jones (D - 8th CD) 
Carroll Hubbard, Jr. (D - 1st CD KY) 
William H. Natcher (D - 2nd CD KY) 
Harold Rogers (R - 5th CD KY) 
Bill Boner (D - 5th CD) 
Don Sundquist (R - 7th CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 51,000. 

RALEIGH /DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA 

Affected Congressmen: Charles Whitley (D - 3rd CD) 

Bill Hefner (D - 8th CD) 
Tim Valentine (D - 2nd CD) 
Bill Cobey (R - 4th CD) 
Howard Coble (R - 6th CD) 
Charlie Rose (D - 7th CD) 

1200 GRPs - S 50,000. 

GREENVILLE/ SPARTANBURG, SOUTH CAROLINA 
ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA 

Affected Congressmen: Butler Derric)c (D - 3rd CD SO 

John Spratt (D - 5th CD SO 
Carroll A. Campbell, Jr. (R - 4th CD 
Bill Hendon (R - 11th CD NC) 
Ed Jen)cins (D - 9th CD GA) 
Doug Barnard, Jr. (D - 10th CD GA) 

1200 GRPs - $ 41,000. 



aai Ok* c«urr «e*o 9*i.ime»t.. m«*vi>no iiim ooii iw-ujo 



538 



the rohert goodman agency, inc. 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 
"Freedom Fighters TV" 

Page Three 



JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA 

Affected Congressmen: Charles Bennett (D - 3rd CD) 
Buddy MacKay (D - 6th CD) 
Don Fuqua (D - 2nd CD) 
Bill Chappell, Jr. (D - 4th CD) 
Robert Lindsay Thomas (D - 1st CD GA) 
J. Roy Rowland (D - 8th CD GA) 

1200 GRPs - 5 41,000. 

LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY 

Affected Congressmen: Romano Mazzoli (D - 3rd CD) 

Lee ti. Hamilton (D - 9th CD IND) 
William D. Natcher (D - 2nd CD) 
Gene Snyder (R - 4th CD) 
Larry J. Hopkins (R - 6th CD) 

1200 GRPs - S 37,000. 

AUSTIN, TEXAS 

Affected Congressmen: J.J. Pic)cle (D - 10th CD) 
Marvin Leath (D - Uth CD) 
Mac Sweeney (R - 14th CD) 
Tom Loeffler (R - 21st CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 35,000. 

KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE 

Affected Congressmen: Jim Cooper {D - 4th CD) 

Harold Rogers (R - 5th CD KY) 
James H. Quillen (R - 1st CD) 
John J. Duncan (R - 2nd CD) 
Marilyn Lloyd (D - 3rd CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 33,000. 
EL PASO, TEXAS 
Affected Congressmen: Ron Coleman (D - 16th CD) 

1200 GRPs - S 20,000. 



2201 OLD COurr »0A0 lALTIMORC MAXTLANO 2I2M (301) 2M-UM 



539 



Cfc« robert g^odman agency^ ine, 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 
"Freedom Fighters TV" 

Page Four 



McALLEN/ BROWNSVILLE, TEXAS 

Affected Congressmen: Kika De La Garza (D - 15th CD) 
Solomon P. Ortiz (D - 27th CD) 

1200 GRPs - S 14,000. 

COLUMBUS /TUPELO, MISSISSIPPI 

Affected Congressmen: Jamie Whitten (D - 1st CD) 
Webb Franlclin (R - 2nd CD) 
G.V. Sonny Montgomery (D - 3rd CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 12,000. 



OPTION I. TOTALS: S 810,000. 

59 Congressmen 

OPTION TWO II. 

All of the .TiarJcets covered in Option I, with the following 
additions: 

PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA 

Affected Congressmen: John Murtha (D - 12th CD) 

Alan Mollohan (D - 1st CD WVA) 
Willieun dinger (R - 23rd CD) 
Thomas Ridge (R - 21st CD) 
Joe Kolter (D - 4th CD) 
William J. Coyne (D - 14th CD) 
Doug Walgren (D - 18th CD) 
Joseph M. Gaydos (D - 20th CD) 
Austin J. Murphy (D - 22nd CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 91,000. 



2201 OLO COurr IIO*0 lALnMOat MAHTLANO 2I2M OSII 2M-S33e 



540 



the robert goodman agency^ Inc. 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 
"Freedom Fighters TV" 



Page Five 



OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA 



Affected Congressmen: 



Wes Watlcins (D - 3rd CD) 
David McCurdy (D - 4th CD) 
Mickey Edwards (R - 5th CD) 
Glenn English (D - 6th CD) 
Mi)te Synar (D - 2nd CD) 



1200 GRPs - $ 44,000. 



TULSA, OKLAHOMA 
Affected Congressmen: 



Jim Jones (D - 1st CD) 
Wes WatJcins (D - 3rd CD) 
Mi)ce Synar (D - 2nd CD) 
Mic)tey Edwards (R - 5th CD) 



1200 GRPs - S 33,000. 



LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS 
Affected Congressmen: 



Tommy F. Robinson (D - 2nd CD) 
Bill Alexander (D - 1st CD) 
John Paul H^UTlmerschmidt (R - 3rd CD) 
Beryl Anthony, Jr. (D - 4th CD) 



1200 GRPs - S 33,000. 



OPTION II. TOTALS: 



$ 1,011,000. 

78 Congressmen 



OPTION III. 

All of the mar)cets covered in Option I and Option II, with 
the following additions: 



ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 
Affected Congressmen: 



Melvin Price (D - 21st CD ILL) 
William L. Clay (D - 1st CD) 
Robert A. Young (D - 2nd CD) 
Richard A. Gephardt (D - 3rd CD) 



aZOI OLD COum «0*D •AIJ1H0«L M**YLAN0 2I2M oei) 2««-SlX 



541 



the roberC g0edmtm agency, inc. 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 
"Freedom Fighters TV* 



Page Six 



ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI (Continued) 



Affected Congressmen: 



Bill Emerson (R - 8th CD) 
Harold L. VoDoner (D - 9th CD) 
Richard J. Durbin (D - 20th CD ILL) 
Kenneth J. Gray (D - 22nd CD ILL) 



1200 GRPs - $ 74,000. 



MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN 
Affected Congressmen: 



Les Aspin (D - 1st CO) 

Robert W. Kastemneier (D - 2nd CD) 

Gerald D. KleczJca (D - 4th CD) 

Jim Moody (D - 5th CD) 

Thomas E. Petri (R - 6th CD) 

F. James Sensenbrenner (R - 9th CD) 



1200 GRPs - S 59,000. 



CINCINNATI, OHIO 
Affected Congressmen: 



Bill Gradison (R - 2nd CD) 
Thomas A. Lu)cen (D - 1st CD) 
Bob McEwen (R - 6th CD) 
Thomas N. Kindness (R - 8th CD) 
Lee H. Hamilton (D - 9th CD IND) 
Gene Snyder (R - 4th CD KY) 
Larry J. Hopicins (R - 6th CD KY) 
Carl C. PerJiins (D - 7th CD KY) 



1200 GRPs - S 52,000, 



ROCHESTER. NEW YORK 
Affected Congressmen: 



Fran)c Horton (R - 29th CD) 
Fred J. Ec)cert (R - 30th CD) 
Jac)t F. Kemp (R - 31st CD) 
John J. LaFalce (D - 32nd CD) 



1200 GRPs - $ 35,000, 



A 0C77208 



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542 



the robert goodman agency^ inc. 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 
"Freedom Fighters TV" 



Page Seven 



ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 
Affected Congressmen: 



Bill Richardson (D - 3rd CD) 
Mike Strang (R - 3rd CD CO) 
Manuel Lujan, Jr. (R - 1st CD) 
Joe S)ceen (R - 2nd CD) 



1200 GRPs - S 33,000, 



SYRACUSE, NEW YORK 
Affected Congressmen: 

1200 GRPs 
MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE 
Affected Congressmen: 



Fran)c Horton (R - 29th CD) 

Sherwood Boehlert (R - 25th CD) 

George C. Wortley (R - 27th CD) 

$ 31,000. 



Ed Jones (D - 8th CD) 
Jamie Whitten (D - 1st CD MS) 
Bill Alexander (D - 1st CD AR) 
Harold E. Ford (D - 9th CD) 
Don Sundquist (R - 7th CD) 



1200 GRPs - $ 31,000 
WILKES BARRE/SCRANTON, PENNSYLVANIA 
Affected Congressmen: 



Paul KanjorsJti (D - 11th CD) 
William dinger (R - 23rd CD) 
Joseph M. McDade (R - 10th CD) 



1200 GRPs - S 31,000. 
BANGOR. MAINE 
Affected Congressmen: 



Olympia Snowe (R - 2nd CD) 
John McKernan (R - 1st CD) 



1200 GRPs - S 28,000 
PORTLAND/ POLAND SPRINGS, MAINE 
Affected Congressmen: 



John McKernan (R - 1st CD) 
Olympia Snowe (R - 2nd CD) 



1200 GRPs - S 24,000. 

2201 OLD COUITT KOAD tALTIMOUE MARTLANO 21201 I30O 2M-SM0 



543 



the r^bert ffoodman agency, inc. 

aj«:rican conservative trust 
"Freedom Fighters TV" 



Page Eight 

JOHNSTOWN/ALTOONA, PENNSYLVANIA 

Affected Congressmen: Bud Shuster (R - 9th CO) 

1200 GRPs - $ 17,000. 

WHEELING, WEST VIRGINIA 
STEUBENVILLE, OHIO 



Affected Congressmen: 



Alan Mollohan (D - 1st CD WVA) 
Douglas Applegate (D - 1st CD OH) 



1200 GRPs - $ 16,000 
ERIE, PENNSYLVANIA 
Affected Congressmen: 



Thomas Ridge (R - 21st CD) 
William dinger (R - 23rd CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 12,000. 

CLARKSBURG/WESTON, WEST VIRGINIA 

Affected Congressmen: Alan Mollohan (D - 1st CD) 

Harley 0. Staggers, Jr. (0 - 2nd CD) 
Bob Wise (D - 3rd CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 9,000. 
IDAHO FALLS /POCATEIXO, IDAHO 
Affected Congres^wn: Richard Stallings (D - 2nd CD) 

1200 GRPs - $ 9,600. 

OPTIC»J III. TOTALS: $ 1,472,000. 

117 Congressmen 



•* 0077210 



> cowTT WAS McrawM. HAaTONo t>tm ae<) »*-*Me 



544 



PLAN OF ACTION TO LOBBY CONCRESSS ON MILITARY AID FOR THE 
NICARAGUAN RESISTANCE 

Military aid for the Nicaraguan resistance will be won or 
lost in the Democratic party, won or lost in the House of 
Representatives. Our principal effort will be to work with 
Democrats and the Administration to find the winning coalition. 
Our hope is to maintain the large majority in the House 
supporting aid to the resistance that was forged last Spring. 
Only that kind of strong bipartisan support will sustain a policy 
that has so many determined opponents in the American political 
system. 

Our specific tasks will be the following: 





1. ^v^irst and foremost and continuously through this 
process, ^iiV will maintain contact with the Democrats and 
Republ icanT'^who forged the winning coalition last Spring. We 
will also look for the emergence and try to develop new leaders 
on the issue. 

2. We will identify the themes that are driving the debate 
at the national level, e.g. human rights, Contadcra, the role of 
,the Cubans, Nicaragua's interference in other countries, we will 
Ireak this down in terms of the themes of greatest concern to the 
40-70 swing votes and the themes used by the opponents of aid. 

^3. We will periodically produce an assessment of how the 
identified swings are likely to vote and to the "tent posssible 
at forc^ are active in their districts^tu rl JJ J<^L^fr^^J^ 

We wi 1 1 

Administration. 



maintain continous liason with the 



5. We will take the members of the UNO Directorate and 
other Nicaraguans to the hill in order to raise the level of 
knowledge of what UNO is trying to accompliah 






Prepared by Bruce P. Cameron Jamiary 24, 1 






ft 0081707 

\ 



545 



V^ASm.NGTON DC 101,1 



January 2<, 198( 



Dear Kary: 

During 198S, the hope freedow and democracy in Nicaragua was kept 
alive with the help of the National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty and fine Americans such as you. Because you cared, 
the spark' of liberty still glows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
even more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drar.a unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian communist regime i% 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair . 

Last year was a challenging time for America and her President. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You can be 
prouc that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
commence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Besisc».nce Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Dr. Mary AdamXiew ici 
Milford, DE 19963 



A 0029659 



546 



THE WHITE HOUSE 

WAS M 1 NGTON 



CENTRAL AMERICA BRIEFING 

FOR THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST ASP THE 

NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 

January 30, 1986, 2:30 p.m. — The Roosevelt Room 



2:30 p.m. Welcome — Linas Kojelis, Special Assistant 
to the President for Public Liaison 

Remarks -- Linda Chavez, Deputy Assistant to 
the President for Public Liaison 

"Central American Overview: An Update" — 

Elliott Abrans, Assistant Secretary of 
State for Latin America 

3:15 p.m. remarks -- The President 

"Report on Nicaragua" -- Oliver North, Deputy 
Director, Political-Military Affairs, 
National Security Council 



547 



THE WHITE HOUSE 

WA S H I N CTON 



ISSUES AND RESOURCES BRIEFING 

ON CENTRAL AMERICA 

January 31, 1986, Noon — Room 450 EOB 



12:00 Noon Welcome -- Linas Ko^elis, Special Assistant 
to the President for Public Liaison 



"Nicaragua: An Update" -- Oliver North, 

Deputy Director of Political Military 
Affairs, National Security Council 

12:45 p.m. "Central American Overview: An Update" -- 

John Blacken, Coordinator (Acting) of 
Public Diplomacy for Latin America ard 
the Caribbean, Department of State 



Presentation of Resources -- Steve Johnson, 

Office of Public Diplomacy for Latin 

America and the Caribbean, Department cf 
State 



548 



DanMI J. Cdalman, Inc. 17X ^•nntylvtnla ivanu*. N W WttMngion. DC lOOM phen* JO] »1 IMO 

l«l«I 440-211 

EDEL\L\N' """"""""" 

public rviaiiena February S, 1986 



Mr. Dan Conrad 
Executive Director 
National Endowment for 
the Preservation of Liberty 
305 4th Street, N.E. 
Washington, D.C. 20002 

Dear Dan: 

We are pleased to confirm the arrangement under which 
we will be serving as public relations counsel to the 
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 
effective February 6, 1986. 

The agreement is for the period of February 6, 1986 
through April IS, 1986. 

In accordance with this letter of agreement, we shall 
exert our best efforts in pursuing such courses of action 
designed to best serve your interests in the field of 
public relations. 

You agree to pay our firm, as compensation for our 
professional services, a personnel fee of $15,000.00 for 
the months of February and March, and a personnel fee of 
$7,500.00 for the month of April, and payable within the 
month. It is also agreed that you will reimburse us for 
expenses and disbursements directly Incurred and paid by us 
in the performance of the public relations services. There 
will be a standard 17.65% service charge on these expenses 
which have been prepaid by our firm in your behalf. All 
invoices are due and to be paid within 30 days after the 
date of the invoice. 

The fee for professional services covers activities in 
the United States only. If the program entails services of 
our foreign offices or affiliates, there will be an 
additional time charge for such services. 

You agree to indemnify and save us harmless from and 
against all liability including all actions, claims, 
damages, costs, and attorneys fees, which we may incur (or 
to which we may be a party), arising out of actions taken 
or statements made by us at your direction or based upon 
information provided by you. 

A 0076225 



Chicago Oallat Houiton Lot Angala* Miami Naw Yorli St. LouK San Franciaco Watnington 
Buanoi Airat Dublin Frankfurt Hong Kong Kuala Lumpur London Slr)gapora Tokyo 



549 



Dcnitl J Cdclmin. Inc. 



Mr. Dan Conrad 
February 5, 1986 
Page 2 



It is understood that you shall not, whether directly 
or indirectly, employ, hire, or retain, and that you shall 
not recommend to others the employment, hiring or retention 
of, as an employee, agent, independent contractor or 
otherwise, any person employed by us for one year following 
the termination of the arrangement. 

We are pleased to have this opportunity of being of 
service and assure you that we will extend every effort to 
make the program extremely productive for you. 

Please sign both copies of this letter, retaining the 
original for your files and returning the copy to us. 




/.^a.f^ 



fephen K. Cook 
Executive Vice President 
FOR DANIEL J. EDELMAN, INC. 



SKC:alo 



ACCEPTED: 



FOR: THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 



^ 0076226 



550 



I Fraser \~yPuR 



Minr md Fraser ^--'Puttc Affairs lr\L 
February 26, 19H6 



Mr. Spitz Channel 

President 

National Endowment for the 

Preservation of Liberty 
305 nth Street, NE - Suite 210 
Washington, D.C. 20002 

Dear Mr. Channel: 

It is with great pleasure that I submit this agreement to assist the 
initiative to gain legislative clearance for ^100 mrllion to support the aid 
package for the Nicaraguan Freedom highters . I have promised to give my 
personal time . 

Our mutual agreement is to work for three weeks at $5,000 per week, 
plus ex"penses which will be bilieo at cost . 

We commend the initiative that was undertaken to date including the 
magnificent tundraising job. 

1. MISSION : 

To network with organizations -- national and grassroots with a goal 
to influence targeted Congressional votes. We understand you have 
revised the target list and we will receive it within 48 hours. Tne 
initial list of priorities you gave us is 32 Democrats and 33 
Republicans. Your list of House members who voted against the JIV 
million in military aid on April 23, 1985 and who voted in favor of $27 
million in humanitarian aid on June 12, 1985. This is an excellent 
list. Though these congressmen are primarily located in the 
southeast part of the United States, that is particularly true of the 
Democratic list you gave us, not ot the Kepublicans. 

The listing we received by states would be our targets for 
congressional letters. Our mission is concentrating on letters from 
the district to the targeted Congressmen. As your priority targets 
Changes, we will be informed, we realize there may t>e other 
opportunities. These include group/Individuals willing to go to tneir 
local media, "walk-ins" and other activities at the local level — to 
influence spcciflc congressional votes. 



A 00~4e56 



1250 titt Strut NW W«s*in»Wii DC 20005 (202)371-1515 



551 



Mr. Spiti Channel 
February 26, 198b 
Page 2 



MATERIALS : 

It will be extremely inportant to prepare simple materials very 
quickly, including model statements for letters. Thank you for tne 
materials you provided. The arguments presented enunciate fully the 
particular arguments about communism, persecution and aggression 
against tne (_hurch by the Sandinista government. We have also 
pulled together data on numbers and construction, of refugees, 
primarily women and children, military build ups and the exploration 
of revolution to surrounding countries, further exasperating tne 
stability of the region. 

TIMETABLE : 

We do not know the precise timetable. We understand the effort 
could last longer than three weeks. You have asKed us to 
concentrate the activities on the idea of a three week initiative. This 
agreement shall onlv be m etfect for three weeKs. 

NUMBERS TO BE GENERATED : 

Our understanding is that nothing is more important than results. 

No matter how many groups we talk to, the only Importantpoint is JU^L- 

RESULTS. in our initial chart, the projection is for3*rS^ letters. ^"^> 

We will better know after we complete the first week and give you 

that analysis of our accomplishments. Already we have tentative 

commitments from approximately ten major groups. That Is 

significant. Note the following timetable: 

A) Weeks 1 " and 3: 

1 . Identify anci msKj Initial calls to relevant grassroots groups: 

• Women 

• Military 

• Conservative 

• Religion (if possible) 

• Other 

2. Prepare the required materials 

• receive commitments 

• distribute materials 

3. Phone foliow-up (where necessary) and personal visits to 
the national liaisons. Make calls where needed to build on 
additional groups if necessary. Make local calls. 

Prepare report tnat shows activity with the minimum of 
lb groups and hopefully the target pro)ect of the 
I0ftr*<nr Tetters at the minimum. 
Continue to make contacts. Kollow-up in the areas. 

• i-eed in results from phone calls and visits (if 
necessary on a daily basis to Dan). 

• Provide report at the end of the three weeks, 
full-blown ot wnat our understanding is of what has 
been accomplished tor all targeted districts by each 
group which participated. 



if?-- 



# 



29,000 \cHiss 



552 



Mr. Spit2 Channel 
February 26, 1986 
Page 3 



V. CROUPS : 

We have provided you an initial list of groups (and keep adding). 

These groups naturally break down into categories. The attached list 
should prove helpful. We are breaking out individual assignments. 
For example, I p>ersonally will concentrate on the women's groups and 
some of the military groups we got to know during our activities with 
the armed services; Hispanic groups; some ot the conservative 
groups. 

VI. BUDGET : 

The total budget that we propose comes to $1S,000 or $S,000 per 
week, plus expenses, not to exceed )3,S0O. 

What follows IS an estimated breakdown of time and expenses. i ne 
expenses are: 

Materials 6 Reproduction } 500 

Telephone 300 

MessengTr 450 

Taxi 6 Transportation 70 

Miner t Fraser postage 200 

$ 1,520 

NOTE : 

Vouchers at cost will be suomitted for everything. 

We do not cover postage for outside groups. We would like to 
have this considered on a case by case basis. 

I commit the following: 

• You will have a weekly progress report of groups who have been 
contacted, commitments made by each and expectation of results. 

• I he tollow-up activity will be spelled out. You will have a 
projection of what congressional districts they have taken and 
the number of letters projected as well as the expected follow-up 
accordingly. 

• All of this "results-oriented" approach will be reflected in our 
weekly reports . 

VIII. MANAGEMENT OF THE PROJECT : 

Dan Conrad will be in charge of the project from your vantage point 
and review our weekly progress report. You will also review them 
and give us any specific feedback. On our side, I will be solely 
responsible. 

IX. A SPECIAL NOTE : 

Both parties Insist on "low visibility". We must maintain a low-key 
stance and both parties. In fact. Insist on it. 



553 



Mr. Spitz Channel 
February 26, 1986 
Page « 



X. SHORT TERM FOCUS : 

This agreement covers the penoa beginning February 26, 1986 and 
terminating March 19, 1986. Any continuation of this agreement must 
be negotiated (as stated on page 2 during the fifth week of the 
contract). Again we emphasize the short-term focus and the neea to 
prove results. All understand that. 

Al. UTHER: 

All materials, data ana information that is prepared or originatea Dy 
M6F and performance of the services during this agreement m 
support ot the legislation for the aid will become your exclusive 
property. M£F will not have the right to use, reproduce or disclose 
these materials without your permission. 

All. PAYMENT: 

I he first $5, 000 will be submitted upon signature of agreement, the 
second $5,000 will be given on March 5th ana the last $5,000 will be 
submitted on completion of the 3rd Week, March 19th, of which we 
will submit the final report. The expense bill will t>e submitted with 
voucher for payment the week of March 2«, 1986. 

XIII. CONCLUSION: 

This project stands as signed. 

Sincerely, 

Carl Channel, President Edie Fraser, President 

NEPL Miner & Fraser Public Affairs, Inc. 

Accepted on FEBRUARY 26, 1986 



CC: THOMAS H. MINER 



NIC:01 



554 



FKODhMCA 

FRIENDS OF THE DEMOCRATIC CENTER IN CENTR.\L AMERICA 

729 15TH STREET. N W. SUITE 950. WASHINGTON. DC 20005 20; 347-1006 

NATIONAL COUNCIL 

ANGiEK •loot.e ouia 

CmaiHuam 
UOMIIISAaiUM 

ATTOANCV NCVf VO^K 

•nctiAM t BAMLOW 

PHILIP tAUM 

AMtmCAM JfWItH COWQACH 

JOHN M •CNNrrr* 

IAN AMTOMtO rtXAa 

NICHOLAS tlODCE 

W« ASfl. CO«T*B«A 

uNOEN Hue 

Of xvtK COlOMAOO 
^/L*OlMlfl 8UK0VS»CT 
HOC3VC" iNSTTTvno* 
ST*N»O«0 CA1.J'0««U 

r»*NCis B CAHROi.1. _, 

KEVIN CONAlOAN* 

COM^OIUrt tXfCt/f*^ MCM VOMK 
& HAKHlftON OOOOlE 

•USJNESSMMl •WIUkOC^.'MIA ^A .- 

WILLIAM C OOHEtmr Jft- " 

AMCHICA*! INSTTTUn PQM mH 

UXOO 0CVIlO*UCMT 
JOHN C DUNCAN 

CCMSULTIMT 9T JOI 

MiaCAAl.* COMO«<no« 
WAUMlCE A FEKME 

UIAUL ^LOiMOA 

OMVIllE PMEEUAN 

rom«> ucocTAiR or a<wucui.TU<<t 

J PCTEKOXACE 
CMAiNhMH w A wucf « ca 

JUDITH HEKNSTAOT 
LAS VIOAA NCVADA 
TMEOOOHE M HESIUMOH 

'otvotf 'jimvmiTy or 

None DAMC 

SIDNEY HOOK 

HOCMIA •NSnrunOH 

STANrOAO CALirOMMA 
SAMUEL ' HUNDNOTOM 

MAMVAiio uMrvtnsmr 

JOHN T JOYCE 

MUlOtNT •l*CKLA>«<i AND 

ALLltO CAATTIMCN IMCN 
r(NN KEMBLE- 

rouMOATionn* 
otuocKAne touCAnoN 

CLAMK KCMH 

•OCSiaf MT fMOtirua 

iMiMtmTv or CAU>OaNU 
JEANE 1 KlRKFATItlCK 



NATIONAL POUNOAHON 
MICHACL MOVAK 

AMtiaCAK iMTDirMM ■vmun 

MICHAMO lUVITCtr 

Chaikham. on DtviLOTMen 



Pr<t» A HOSCNtUlTT 

ATTOUNT' MAAWNOTOK OC 
%ArU>0 AUSTIN* 

A PMUr AANOOkM* ll ^ ll H /n 
JOHN n SILKA* 



Harch <>. 1986 



Dan Conrad 

National EndowBcnt for the Praicrvatloo of Liberty 



Penn Keable 



I have attached a acateacnt In support of U.S. military 
asalataace to the Nlcaraguao realitancc and a 
prallalnary list of cadorsars. PKODEHCA would like to 
publish this a full-page advcrtlscBent In the dally 
Washington Post , and distribute glossy rcptlDts to a 
nuaber of political and civic leaders. 

I have attachad a budget. In the event that the 
Endowaent was sble to handle graphic design and 
typesetting the costs would be reduced by the aaounts 
specified. It alght alao be possible to find a 
friendly advertlalog agent — I know of one if you do 
not — who would rebate the custoaary lOt coaolsslon :o 
the organitatlOD. 



Dally full page Ad. Washington Post 

Typesetting 4 design (approxlaate) 

Reprlotlog ad. ovarsltc oa cloy paper 
I ,000 coplaa 

Poatage aod ■esscoger service for ad 
elrculattoa 



$30,360 
$ 2.000 
$ 750 

$ 250 

$33,360 



WILUAM t SIMON 

rOMNA SSCatTAA* or IM 
UAXtlNOCn* 



MAUAICISONN 

■MoismtNT ooNSmTAir «» t 

MAAV M. TtM»LC> 

NCWVONK 
LIV ULLMAN 



•CN J WATTINMAQ 

oOAunoN roe esMOdunc 

CLIf WICML 

AUTHOA 
0CHIM9L(Airr 

mcuTivs DMacTon 



555 



If -- «n :i«port«n: if — « broid and dUtlnqul shed group of sponsors can 
be found to hold an emergency conference on Nlcaraguan aid during :he ne«: 
few weeks, such a conference could give syaboUc witness to the fact thati 
despite many differences within It, there In fact is_ a natural majorl-.y lii 
the U.S. Congress for nllltary assistance. Such a conference, for 
example, could be sponsored by Senator Richard Lugar, Congressman Dave 
McCurdy and Jack Joyce of the Bricklayers Union. It would bring Into 
public focus the fact that this Important national Interest Is being 
obstructed by narrowly partisan, shortsighted political tactics, 
especially In the House of Representatives. 

Such a conference would draw primarily froo the Washington political 
coranunlty. The basic costs would Involve hotel seals, invitations and 
honorla. 

Staff costs S2,000 

Conference Coordinator (2 weeks) SI, 500 

Secretary $ 500 

Telegran Invitations to 1000 S2,500 

Hotel S6,000 

luncheon for 200 9 S30.00 

Hlscellaneout SI, 500 

Handout aatcrlals, photographer. 
Taping, tranaclptlon, distribution 

latkL $12,000 



3. Young -leader* delegation froa Nicaragua. 

Few In the U.S. ,iavc been exposed to the aoat attractive aspect of the 
Nlcaragvian rcalstance; the idealladc young people who have Joined the 
effort CO free their homeland. In Che camps of the resistance one 
encouncera young doctors, lawyers, Ceachcrs and other professionals who 
could HOC possibly be associated wich che Soooza era, and who speak 
eloqueocly (in English) abouC Chclr own efforta In the resistance 
struggle. If — anocher critical If — sponsor* in the U.S. could open 
doors CO the media for cheae people could be persuaded to do so, they 
could isake a very major impact here. It would be well worth bringing 
three of Chem here In che next few weeks. 

Round Crip air fare 9 $700 x 3 $2,100 

Hocel - 4 day* t $125 z 3 $1,500 

Staff a**l*cance in U.S. $ 500 

TOUL 94.100 



556 



\brch 19, 1986 
To: Dan Conrad, Sentinel 

Fron: Eric Singer, Center for Oerrocracy in the Arericas 
Re: Projections on tavorTOt/'i vote in the House. 



A 0076810 



557 



DBvOCRATS 



For 

•♦Erdreich(AL-6) 

♦fiobinson(^-2) 

Bennett (n.-3) 

•Mica(n.-l<t) 

••Smith(Fl.-16) 

»»Pepper(FL-18) 

••FasceU(Ft-19) 

.Skelton(VD-'») 

Watkins(CK-3) 

••English(CK-6) 

♦ •TaUon(SC-6) 

■<x)rdon(TN-6) 

••Boner (TN- 5) 

•ntlKTX-*) 

••Orti2(TX-27) 

•Usath(TX-ll) 

■►•5tenholnn(TX-17) 

••Sisisky(VA-<») 



Against 

Fuqua(Fl.-2) 

VbcKay(FL-6) 

•Rowland(G^-8) 

•Barnard(G^-lO) 

Stalling$(IC>-2) 

Price(IL-21) 

Richardson(N^3) 

Vltiitley(NC-3) 

Hefner(IC-8 

M:Curdy(CK-i») 

KanjorskKPA-ll) 

DerrickCSCO) 

Spratt(SC-5) 

♦Lloyd(TN-3) (announced) 

Cooper (TN.<») 

Pickle(TX-lO) 

Colenian(TX-16) 

Bu5t»™nte(TX-23) 

Aspin(Wl-n 



Uhdecided 

••ThaT«s(G^-l) 

••Hatcher (0^-2) 

Heftel(HI-l) 

\fe220li(KY-3) 

Long(LA-8) 

Vltiitten(H^-t) 

Biaggi(Nfir-19) 

:ones(CK-I) 

3ones(TN-8) 

de la Garza(TX-15) 

Andrews (TX-25) 

Vfcllohan(WV-l) 



"Vterber ^Oio voted lor Si* million last April but \»*io publicaly expressed 
reservations on the President's bill this March. 

•nterrber \*ho voted lor military aid last April, but included on the 
reccrrmendation of Dan Kuykendall. 

••MffTt>er has signed Skelton Letter, ukhich would leave President's legislative 
proposal intact. 



« 00788n 



558 



For 



Jim Kolbe(AZ-5) . 
Ed Zschau(C^-12) 



Fav*«ll(IL-13) 

Madtgan(IL-l)) 

,\tertin(lL-16) 

Tauke(IA-2) 

l-bpkins(Ky-6) 

Bereuter(NE-l) 

Snith(NE-3) 

Gregg(^H-2) 

Rinaldo(ISD-7) 

Gilmftn{Vr'-22) 

STuth(CR-2) 

McDBde(PA-lO) 

RoukerTB(ND-5) 



RERBLIC«NS 

Against 

NtKinney(CT-<») 

McKernan(N€-l) 

Sn(5*e(\C-2) 

FrenzeKNMO) 

HDrton(W-29) 

Gradison(OI-2) 

Ridge(PA-21) 

Rowland(CT-5) 



Uhdecided 

Mtyers(KS-3) 
Obvis(MI-II) 

Fish(W-21) 

Regula(CH-I6) 

Clinger(PA-23) 

•VterrisonCWA-it) 

CTiandler(WA-8) 

Gunderson(WI-3) 

Goodling(PA-19) 



N\ vote count as of Nterch 19, 1985: 200-212, with 21 undecided votes.* 
• Cn April 23, 1985 vote on $!<» million military aid was defeated, 180- 
2W. Six merbers not counted in the vote were, with their positions noted 
here: Badham, Byron (signer of Skelton letter), Vanderjact, and Daniel-- all 
in favor; and Rodino.McCloskey -- both against. The baseline count thus 
becores 18i»-2W (O'Neil will vote only if there's a tie and one "no" vote, 
Addabo's, is corratose.) Then subtract fran those voting in favor the seven 
"Ynilitary aid" signers of the Slattery letter and two military aid proponents 
now against the President's bill (Rowland and Barnard). The tentative figure 
beccjTBs 175-258. Adding 25 new votes for aid and then subtracting the 21 
"undecided" (see list) leaves a figure of 200 in favor, 212 against. 



A 0076512 



559 



CtWTKR nit DKMOCRACT It TBt MBRICAS 
7t» IStk 5tr««t, irv * Suit* 940 * Uaahir^on, DC tOOOi 



(t0t)S47-3SS. 



Ptrm iMafcU 
ofiai i im Tn 

Bruaa Cam»ron 



To: Dan Conrad 

From: Bruce P. Cameron 

Re: Activities Report, March 15-March 19 



March 19, 1986 



Date 
3/14 
3/16 



3/18 



« 0076222 



Activities/ Meetings 
Congressman Rod Chandler 

Meeting with Rod Chandler's 
staff, who, working with the 
Administration, subsequently put 
together a draft Executive Order 
as the basis for a possible 
compromise. On 3/14 Chandler 
estimated it would bring 8 
Republicans on board. 

Meeting with Chandler's staffr 

Meeting with Skelton's staff 
(Tommy GlakasI 

Meeting with Arturo Cruz re: his 
scheduled meeting with McCurdy :• .5 

E. Singer debates Bill Schapp 

of Covert Action on WBAI, New Ycr'., 

7:15 - 8:00 p.m. 

Talked with seven members who 
attended the bipartisan meeting 
of Democrats and Repubs . to work 
on a compromise. 

Spoke to the Roosevelt Club: 
Reps. McKewen, Weber, McCain, ar.d 
Sil jander . 

Spoke at. CSIS (Georgetown) meetir.s- 
with five members present on th 
danger of Sovtet/Cuban presence 
on American mainland, progress 
of UNO reform, to rebut Edgars 
Chamorro 



560 



cwwrn roR dsmocract xt rat tutmcts 

7tt IStk 5tr««t, HW * Suit* 940 * V<uhi>^on, DC tOOOi * (l0t)S4?-358i 



ohaiimui 
Brue» Caimivn 



Date Activities/ Meetings 

3/19 Took Robelo and Cruz to final 

meeting with McCurdy before vote 
At this point, McCurdy is 
trying to get an early vote on 
his coBfomise. If the speaker 
acquieses , he will vote against 
the President's package. .and oppose 
the Executive Order. 

Meeting with Arturo Cruz. 

Singer finishes o„ ^. ,,i,.i, 
p-ed witn 

Roberto Ferrey to appear in 

LA Times tomorrow. Copies of 

piece will be distributed to 

members before the vote. 

E. Singer worked with Steve 
Cochran of Budddy Roemer's 
office (D-LA) to send out 
a "Dear Colleague" letter with 
Fred Barnes' piece on the contras 
attached . 



A 0076223 



561 



MCI Mail 



The nation's new ' 



March 2i, 1986 

Angela J. Davis 

Hashinglon, DC. 20002 

DEAR 

HE THOUGHT YOD MOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE NAMES OF CONGRESSMEN HHO 
ARE MEMBERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S PARTY HHO VOTED AGAINST 
THE MILITARY AND HUMANITARIAX AID FOR THE NICARACUAH FREEDOM 
FIGHTERS. LISTED BELOM ARE THOSE REPUBLICANS HHO VOTED 
AGAINST THE PRESIDENT AND AGAINST FREEDOM: 

CONGRESSMAN BOEHLERT (R - NY) 
CONGRESSMAN CONTE (R - MA) 
CONGRESSMAN FRENZEL (R - MN) 
CONGRESSMAN GREEN (R - NY) 
CONGRESSMAN HOPKINS (R - KY) 
CONGRESSMAN HORTON (R - NY) 
CONGRESSMAN JEFFERS (R - VT) 
CONGRESSMAN LEACH (R - lA) 
CONGRESSMAN LIGHTFOOT (R - lA) 
CONGRESSMAN MCKINHEY (R - CT) 
CONGRESSMAN RIDGE (R - PA) 
CONGRESSMAN ROLAND (R - CT) 
CONGRESSMAN SCHNEIDER (R - RI) 
CONGRESSMAN SNOM (R - MA) 
CONGRESSMAN TAUKE (R - lA) 
CONGRESSMAN HYLIE (R - OH) 

SINCERELY YOORS. 

THE AMERICAK CONSERVATIVE TRUST (ACT) 
SPITZ CHAKKELL, PRESIDENT 
F. CLIFTOH SMITH, TREASURER 



« 0075874 



562 




UOI OLD COUHT IKI*D tALnMORL MIRTLANO IMOt OOII 2W-U30 



March 31, 1986 



Mr. Spitz Channell 
NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE 
PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 
305 4th Street, N.E. 
Washington, D.C. 



Dear Spitz: 



Congratulations . 

The National Endowment's television campaign in support 
of the Nicaraguan "freedom fighters" not only has all of official 
Washington talking, but has broken new ground in the area of 
public policy advocacy. 

By using creative television messages to educate and 
enlighten elected officials in Washington, and their constit- 
uents back home, N.E.P.L. has established new precedents for 
affecting Congressional attitudes on pending legislation. 
Better yet, through its efforts on the Contra aid issue, 
N.E.P.L. has now become a major player in the critical arena 
of American foreign policy. 

As you recall, we began with one clear objective: winni.-.g 
Congressional approval of the President's SlOO-million aid 
request for Nicaraguan Contras fighting the forces of communist 
Sandinistas for control of their homeland. Further, we desig.-.e- 
an overall strategy predicated on the simple premise: Americar.s, 
and their elected representatives, when properly informed, 
will not only stand up for what is right but will fight for 
it. 

Given the United States Senate's recent approval of a 
Contra funding bill, and clear signs that the House of 
Representatives will soon follow suit, we feel the National 
Endowment's ambitious program will achieve its ultimate 
objective. 

By design, we launched the four-week national televisicn 
ad campaign in Washington, DC, in late February. This re- 
flected the economy of reaching all 435 Members of the House 
(and 100 United States Senators) in one sitting. Beginnir.,- 
with Week 2, and running through the first decisive House 
vote in late March, we also aired spot commercials in ^J 

A 0077744 



563 



the robert goodman agency^ Inc. 

Mr. Spitz Charmell 
March 31, 1986 
Page Two 

additional televi«ion markets across the country. 

These targeted markets, covering the home Districts 
of nearly thirty Congressmen experts considered to be at 
the core of the key "swing vote" on Contra funding, added 
scope and credibility to the ad campaign. In fact, N.E.P.L.'s 
national television spot series was ultimately seen by more 
than 33 million people, or one out of every seven Americans. 

More impressively, this head count doesn't even include 
the tens of millions of Americans who saw, and/or read 
about, our spots courtesy of the national press and 
network television (this alone was worth an estimated S5-10 
million in free publicity for N.E.P.L. and the President's 
Contra aid program) . 

As your creative advisors and producers, we are ex- 
tremely gratified by the great reviews N.E.P.L.'s spot 
commercials received from the White House, the national press 
corps, and the American public. 

By way of summary, N.E.P.L. produced seven commercials 
for the national ad caunpaign designed to dramatize facts 
and information which have a direct bearing on the whole 
issue of continued American aid to the freedom fighters. 
A brief description of these television spot productions 
follows : 



'Terrorist Influence" -- A graphic illustration of the 
growing influence of Libya's 
Muammar Kaddafi and other 
terrorist groups in Nicaragua 
today 

'Refugees" — A profile of the displacement and per- 
secution of Nicaraguans under the 
Sandinista communists (one out of every 
six Nicaraguans is now a refugee) 

"Facts" — Religious persecution is documented through 
the real stories of burned-out synagogues, 
expelled priests, and tortured evangelicals 
under the Sandinista regime 



A 0077745 



aOI OkO COURT aOikO. MUlMOaC M«ITL»H0 2I2M (101) 2«*-SM0 



564 



the rohert goodman ageney^ inc. 

Mr. Spitz Channell 
March 31, 1986 
Page Three 



'Helicopters" 



"They Are Us" 



"Tip's Shame" 



'Letter' 



-- A visceral and ominous display of 
continuing Soviet military aid to 
the Sandinistas. . .Driunatic footage of 
Soviet-made helicopter gunships has 
made this spot the centerpiece of 
N.E.P.L.'s national ad campaign 

■- A more personal portrayal of the 
freedom fighters and displaced 
Nicaraguans linked to Americans 
and our nation's commitment to 
freedom 

-- This 10-second commercial documented 
a statement made by House Speaker 
O'Neill, stating in part: "It would 
be a disaster and a shame for our 
country" to support the freedom 
fighters. .. "since when have Americans 
been ashamed to stand up for freedom?' 



A dramatization of a future time when an 
American soldier writes to his folks before 
being sent off to fight in Nicaragua. . .An 
Orwellian warning of what could happen should 
the Congress deny the cause of the Contras 
today 



Concerning the actual placement of spots, N.E.P.L. 
aired these commercials, cumulatively, over 1100 times in 
Washington and the other targeted television markets. In 
terms of message frequency, this meant that the average 
viewer saw our freedom fighter spots at least five times 
over the course of the campaign (in Washington, this average 
was nearly doubled) . 

N.E.P.L.'s national television campaign achieved 
one more important thing: it influenced votes. 

For example, N.E.P.L. advertised in four of Florida's 
biggest television markets, covering the home Districts of 
16 Congressmen. On the final House vote on Contra funding 
in late March, 14 of the 16 Congressman sided with the 
President in support of the freedom fighters. This is 
dramatic considering many of these Congressmen were con- 
sidered to be on that "swing vote" list mentioned above. 

A 0077746 



2201 OLO court ROAO tALnMOTC. HARTUkNO IIIM (3011 IM-SUO 



565 



the robert goodman agency^ inc. 

Mr. Spitz Channell 
March 31, 1986 
Page Four 



The results were even more impressive in mar)iets li)ce 
Jaclcson (MS) and Savannah (GA) where our success rate on the 
final vote tally hit 100%! 

As you know, the national television campaign didn't 
end with our close defeat in the House in late March. We 
went baclc on the air in Washington, DC immediately after 
the House vote to both ensure our success with the Senate 
vote on Contra funding, and to continue our effort to persuade 
the House to approve the same in mid-April. When Congress 
recessed for the Easter break, we went back on the air in 
several of the key markets as well, putting those particular 
Congressmen on notice that the Contra debate was far from 
over. 

We will conclude this phase of our freedom fighters 
television campaign with a final week blitz in Washington, 
during which we'll air two or three of the most effective 
spots of the campaign. 

We are very optimistic about our chances of winning 
the next House vote scheduled for April 15th, and how this 
reflects on the importance of N.E.P.L.'s efforts over the 
past year. 

More importantly, we would like to commend and 
congratulate the people who have unselfishly donated their 
time and their financial resources to the program. I 
can't begin to tell you how dreunatic an impact these private 
citizens have had on strengthening America's resolve to 
support freedom and democracy wherever it exists in the 
world. 

No one forced your contributors to become involved. 
They did so simply because they believe that the things 
that have made America great and respected by all — 
liberty, democracy, the free pursuit of happiness — are 
things worth fighting for. 

We agree, and to that end are proud to have been a 
part of the effort to support those ideals in Nicaragua. 



All the best! 



Sincerely, 

Adam Goodman 
Media/Political Director 



2201 OLD COUIT *0*0 SALnMOW. M**TL«Ne 2IXM U01I st-sajo 



566 



y:,,/ p/„,..//y'/^ // 



April 15, 1986 



Mr. Richard Miller 
Washington , 



DC 20036 



Dear Rich: 



As promised, the final House votes to decide the fati 
of freedom in Nicaragua are today (April 15) being taken. 

With the House acting on the President's request for 
the last time, the usefulness of our Central American 
Freedom Program comes to an end. The program has been 
tremendously successful. It has made a significant 
national and international Impact for good. Most 
important, it has remained true and steadfast to Ronald 
Reagan's goals to extend freedom wherever possible. 

You, as Program Director, have executed your nultipl' 
leadership responsibilities with the highest degree of 
professional excellence. You are a gifted and unique 
leader. The team of I3C staff and subcontractors ycu 
assembled to carry out specific aspects of the Central 
A.Tierican Freedom Program is also worthy of great 
admiration and appreciation from everyone supportive of 
the President's goal. 

Last week I began to notify our subcontractors and 
consultants that all Sentinel financial arrangements wit.-, 
them would be terminated on April 15. Please call the 
following businesses/individuals and notify them that the 
program has ended and restate that all financial 
arrangements between Sentinel and them are terminated as 
of tonight. Your follow-up call will ensure that we ha-e 
contacted everyone. 

Please convey my sincere thanks to everyone. Tell 
them that I will personally contact them about future 
projects. Everyone involved in the Central American 
Freedom Program will shortly receive a heartfelt pe.-scr.al 
thank you from me. 



A 0079240 



567 



Please cal 1 : 

Marty Artlano 

Steve Cook 

David Fischer 

Edie Fraser 

Bob and Adam Goodman 

Dan Kuykendall 

Jaipk Llchenstein 

Penn Kemble 

UNO office. 

I cannot express to you my appreciation for the 
incredible contribution you have made in support of 
freedom. Thank you for being instrumental in making this 
program a success. 

Very sincerely. 



Spitz Cha.inell 

President 

Sentinel 



A 0079241 



568 



CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM BRIEFING 



1 . Mr. Ricardo Capote 

2. Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

3 Miss. Jacqueline M. demons 

4. Mr. Daniel Lynn Conrad 

5. Miss Angela Joy Davis 

6. Mr. Robert Drlscoll 

7. Mr. Searcy Ferguson 

8. Mr. Francis D. Gomez 

9. Miss Fawn Hall 

10. Mr. Hugh Ellis Ledbetter , i: 

11. Mr. Kris S. Llttledale 

12. Miss Jane E. McLaughlin 

13. Mr. Richard R. Miller 

14. Colonel Oliver North 

15. Mr. F. Clifton Smith 

16. Mr. Earl E. T. Smith 

17. Mr. Edwin L. Welsl, Jr. 

18. Mr. Roger Wllkins 



569 



NATIONAL ENDOWMENT 

FOR THE 

PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 



STOTEMENT OF NET ASSETS 
firPiL 30, 1986 



»0i »OJ«T- 
SUITC lOOO 



CONSOLIDATED) »«»»M■N0TO^ 



DC 20OO2 



ASSETS 

COSH AND MARKETABLE SECURITIES 

PALMER NOT'L (REGULAR) t 4,97^.5^ 

PALMER NAT' L (SPECIAL •!) 66, ?eO. 1 1 

PALMER NOT'L (SPECIAL tZ) 271,299.76 

PALMER NAT'L (FUTURE OF FREEDOM) 32,610.41 

HUTTON (REGULAR) Wiige.**! 

HUTTOI (SPECIAL il) 10, 66*. 00 

HUTTON (SPECIAL §2) 1,706,570.15 

IRVING TRUST 5,000.00 

PALMER CERTIFICATE 10,573.25 

GERBER PRODUCTS STOCK 326,601.25 



TOTAL CASH AND MARKETABLE SECURITIES 2,455,968.91 



ACCOUNTS AND NOTES RECEIVABLE 

AFFILIATES 16,012.50 

EMPLOYEE ADVANCE 400.00 

NOTE RECEIVABLE (CRC) 65,676.90 



TOTAL RECEIVABLES 62,091.40 



FIXED ASSETS 

FURNITURE AND EQUIPMENT 56,332.67 

LEASEHOLD IMPROVEMENTS 1,261.00 



TOTAL FIXED ASSETS 59,593.67 

PREPAID SERVICE CONTRACTS 3,019.92 

TOTAL ASSETS 2,600,674.10 

PAYROLL TAXES PAYABLE (34,996.45) 

NET ASSETS AVAILABLE • 2,565,677.65 



STATEMENT OF CHANGES IN fCT ASSETS 
FOR THE MONTH ENDING APRIL 30, 198& 

CONTRIBUTIONS • 1,990,990.00 

OTHER INCOME 31,043.15 



TOTAL ADDITIONS 2,022,033.15 



PROJECT EXPENDITURES 545,054.75 

DIRECT FUNDRAISING EXPENSES 14,617.91 

ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS 123,233.66 



TOTAL DEDUCTIONS 662,906.32 



NET INCREASE (DECREASE) IN NET ASSETS 1,339, 12C. 63 

NET ASSETS AVAILABLE AT BEGINNING OF PERIOD 1,226,550.62 



NET ASSETS AVAILABLE AT END OF PERIOD • 2,565,677.65 



570 



unitMi dcKHon roo 

T)f P«ISC»V(lTl(»i (F LlKITV 

icoeaiDATDi 

rATDOn a (KMT 106 

im 



roiuMY 



MCH 



«P«1L 



COTIIIIUTiaE 


«t7,715.00 


432,135.40 


2,117,108.08 


1,990,990.00 


IKTIREST ICOC 


U.93 


7?9.45 


l,32(.20 


T5(.39 


OIVIKX) IICK 


1,(77. K 


(42.0(1 


49,(44.98 


1,305.39 


IIUEALI2ES tAIN/aOSS) 


(7,«J5.03) 


(53,400.00) 


10,145.00 


3(,98«.37 
(8,00100) 


TOTAL HDD1TIB6 


4M,oeo.« 


380,HL79 


2,18(,224.2( 


2,022,033.15 


OISBURSOCXTS 

WaJEHS 

IK 










905,000.00 


222,(0e.84 


988,000.00 


t99,977.00 


60QMPN 




134,307.57 


491,053.11 


C510.8( 


PfUDWA 






12,740.00 


11,490.07 


EKLNflN 






42,000.00 


31,ll(.e2 


imcn 


13,300.00 


15,100.00' 


42,500.00 


10,000.00 
100,000.00 


TUTflL MOJECTS 


511,300.00 


372,014.41 


1,574,29118 


545,064.75 


RMDIVltSIIC 










01 «n 


2,421.91 


5,151.(1 


29,796.09 


2(4.23 


TWtVQ. 


1,14106 


I^ 204.(1 


4,133.00 


14,351(8 


LOCAL imfiporr (csosi 






135.00 


0.00 


LOAL TWfiPORT (LIIO) 






3,230.38 


0.00 


imAL niCMRlSIC 


11,271. »7 


20,3S(.22 


37,29147 


14,(17.91 


(UMDETIIATM 










ATtnKTIIC FHS 


7,000.00 


4,200.00 


4,200.00 


4,500.00 


MK CHMGES 


12.11 


(9.00 


1(8.00 


72.(4 


MWERfleE Fm 






3,9S(.I5 


0.00 


CDUHa SEHVICE 


322. 3« 


2,117.15 


2,13(.}« 


2,95(.I7 


EBUinfXT KNTAL 


5«7.J3 


2,247.38 


3,712.07 


l,43(.74 


FICAOnJJYEK 


3,S10.M 


3, 4%. 28 


l,E1.28 


1,188.75 


SKSS SALARIES 


4f,100.00 


n,n9-w 


28,899.00 


(1,136.75 


IIGJIflMZ 


47.00 


Tat. 50 


801(0 


570.02 


UBAL FIES 


2,337.03 


5,5(9.02 


1,1(7.25 


128.00 


MAIKTDnC 


380.00 


570.00 


7(0.00 


960.00 


HiscaLAicauE 


3,W.% 


235.50 


7(9.01 


(1,311.15) 


OFFICE 9I9LIE5 


ai.7i 


(49.22 


1,341.50 


974.22 


(mcR Mnoi. TAits 






7((.42 


1, 246.14 


OJTSIK Cdfil TAKT5 


12,000.00 


13,279.00 


7,735.00 


38,015.00 


MTOCOPriC 




393. U 


956.(7 


0.00 


POSTAGE 


lSt.40 




44199 


1(3.27 


MIMTIIC 


71.J7 


5,3(0.41 


59.93 


170.50 


PUB.tC KLATIK 


10,(82.43 


3,852.35 




4,148.93 


MLICRTI06 


til. 10 


1,828.35 


327.(5 


1,1(5.25 


on 


7,725.00 


1,425.00 


1,425.00 


0.00 


TCLfnoc 


2,257.45 


1,555.89 


t,((15S 


2,331.33 


TDCOAMn )CLP 








381.50 


nwepoRTATiw Lin 




1,8(9.02 




1,(00.(5 


TinePORTATIOt LOCAL 




75.00 




755.94 


TMerarrATiM cm lease 




(21.34 


0.00 


UTILITIES 




383.84 


177. 7( 


108.80 
245.21 



TOTAL AVINlSTIRTm 100,737.59 109,801.07 (4,441.51 

TDTa. DISMSXVTS (30,309.56 502,171.70 1,(78,028.16 

in (HHI TD FtfCi IILAK2 (1(6,288.(0) (121,978.91) 510,196.10 



123,233.(6 
(82,90(.32 

1,339,126.83 

A 0029126 



T-T-C TOTd-S 



9,008,(48.48 
2,945.97 
54,585.37 
(3,705.(6) 
(8,00100) 

5,064,471.16 



2,015,98184 
717,871.(1 
24,190.07 
73,116.82 

•0,900.00 
100,000.00 

3,011,(62.34 



r,(39.84 

42,934.35 

135.00 

3,230.38 

83,539.57 



19,900.00 

391.12 

3,956.15 

7,132.04 

7,98152 

9,546.95 

199,03175 

2, 147. 1? 

9,901.30 

2,6(0.00 

3,(76.26 

3,246.72 

2,012.56 

71,029.00 

1,349.83 

765.66 

^ 662. 81 

18,683.71 

3,532.35 

10,575.00 

8,808.22 

381.50 

3,469.67 

8K.94 

(21.34 

(70.40 

245.21 

0.00 

398,21183 

/ 

3,493,415.74 



1,561,055. 4? 



571 



■iMT: im 


icnua 










iniL cwTiianioe 






mm IT: 




(ATI 


oniiuTW 


ILICITOR 


PKUECT 


ICCOWT 


mun 




KUE I CO. 1000 MS 


VITI 




miuK 


M.BO.OO OKI M/JO J4 




■Yl n/rtX PCTE SOOO MS VITI 




timtti 


Pl,ie.00 l»T»4/K 75 




BJ« CD 24» MS 


■>ITI 




Km 12 


I14,l«.00 OKT M/X 45 




KWOIL 24S0 MS 


VITZ 




MTT*I2 


JU.4J7.00 OKI H/X «l 




Elin CO«P MSO MS 


VI TZ 




MTTMK 


901,131.00 (WT 14/30 91 
1,147, IB. 00 


«PI1L it 


DAItlCTIIr 


aiFT 


BT«C-«F 


MRCISA-KT' 


9,000.00 


RPIlL it 


ma. 


MIS 


KTsc-ar 


miSOt-SEF 


1,000.00 
(,000.00 


•>«IL 1 


VKni 


MC 


TOS' 


MTHM 


130,000.00 


imiL « 


LlOOOi 


MC 


CRFP 


MTTW 


1,000.00 


imiL 7 


nmso* 


JK 


CWP 


MTTn 


9,000.00 


ll>flIL 7 


KIC 


aiFF 


CBFP 


MTTW 


190,000.00 


(MIL 9 


OOISTIAN 


aifT 


TtWS- 


MTTIM 


1,000.00 


»«Il 9 


tiNoe 


MIS 


TOTS ■ 


MTTW 


12,900.00 


MXIlL l( 


WMXC 


•>IT2 


TOTS' 


MTTW 


470,000.00 


ITRIl 21 


OKlllK 


MC 


CBFP 


MTTW 


100.00 


VCIL 21 


HMRIS 


OIR/WIL 


ORFP 


MTTW 


100.00 


•WIL 22 


OiCGrn 


MIS 


CRFP 


MTTW 


9,000.00 


MHIlL 23 


MISCDLL 


am 


CRn" 


MTTW 


19,000.00 


(WIL 2* 


larrris 


aiFT 


CRFP 


MTTW 


9,000.00 
•14,900.00 


iPKIL 2 


&i s. Noas 


MC 


CRFP 


MOCI 


1.000.00 


DPKIL 2 


UE IHT'L CWTAIICI 


MC 


CRFP 


•OCR 


so. 00 


KHilL M 


IWTIC2 


M€ 


CRFP 


•DCI 


490.00 


WWIL 14 


MM* 


aiFT 


CRFP 


■OCX 


t, 000. 00 


MXIL l« 


0«UTS 


MC 


CRFP 


(ROCR 


BO. 00 


•PHIL 17 


KLMRSSH) 


Mis 


CRFP 


■OCR 


N, 000. 00 


IWIL 17 


fOBJSth 


)lȣ 


CRFP 


•OCR 


9,000.00 


miL n 


won 


DIR/miL 


CRFP 


KDCX 


9.00 
2i,SS.00 


mill M 


WTI 


VIT2 


FDHTT 


RD-FD 


350.00 


*P(IL 14 


(X. 12156 


am 


Fiwrr 


CT-FCI 


100.00 


DPIIL 14 


aiFT 


aifT 


FOMCT 


«a-fn 


9,000.00 


DPRll. 21 


OIIFFITM 

/ 


aiFT 


FUMICT 


•n-fa 


100.00 
9,950.00 


APRIL 7 


neon 


HKD WIL 


CRFP 


KXTtlG. 


9.00 


IWIIL TOTAL 










2,002,549.00 



572 



0D«1 Ir: BDCITIW 
•••111 CWTIIR/TlOe 



■r lYi 



orriiiuTat 



BLICITO* 



until M 


tAlt.IICT» 


aifT 


ATAC-ai 


minHEf 


3,000.00 


HPIIL 7 


RllC 


aiFT 


CAFP 


Mrm 


190,000.00 


•HIL 14 


KMI 


a IFF 


CAfP 


•DCI 


t, 000. 00 


mil ti 


MimTX 


am 


ORFP 


KT-rQ 


100.00 


«PI1L 23 


ORISCOi 


aifT 


Bn> 


MTTDI 


13,000.00 


flPDIL 2« 


l£NrmR 


aiFT 


CAFP 


MTTW 


3,000.00 


KPRIH 


MISTIAN 


aifT 


TOTS 


Mn» 


1,000.00 


RPIIIL l« 


OKI Hit 


airr 


AH -mi 


ACT-rni 


100.00 


flPRIL 14 


am mm 


aiFF 


ACT-FED 


ACT-fll 


3,000.00 
111,(00.00 


RPML IB 


NCtXT 


BIREO NQK 


CAFP 


KOCR 


3.00 


UPBIL 7 


WCOO 


OIRECT ma 


CAFP 


oniiCL 


3.00 


APRIL 21 


NWRIS 


DIRECT MAIL 


CAFP 


ponm 


100.00 
110.00 


SPOIL 2 


IE IKT'L COTfillCR 


MC 


CAFP 


anocR 


eso.oo 


HPIIIL 2 


ai s. Mxes 


J«C 


CAFP 


BOCR 


1,000.00 


dPOlL 4 


LIDDQJ. 


MC 


OAFP 


PATTOl 


1,000.00 


DPtIL 7 


FDeUSM 


MC 


CAFP 


AATTW 


3,000.00 


«P«IL 14 


munm: 


MC 


«2 


SROCR 


4S0.0O 


CPRIL 14 


OMTS 


Jfl« 


CRFP 


snocR 


(SO. 00 


(PRIL 17 


Fcmusoi 


J«C 


CAFP 


SROCR 


3,000.00 


CPDIL 21 


cmallero 


MC 


CAFP 


PAn» 


J00.00 


(PHIL 1 


cnrLl 


JWC 


TOYS 


MTTW 


130,000.00 
143,80.00 


(MIL 2S 


KISL 


nis 


ATRC 


MDtSCM 


1,0M.00 


HPIIIL 17 


aALUnSSED 


MIS 


CAFP 


•OCR 


(0,000.00 


aPDlL 22 


OAEem 


KRIS 


CAFP 


PArm 


3,000.00 


APRIL 9 


tiDooe 


KRIS 


TB»S 


AATTA 


£,900.00 
91,300.00 


RPRIL 14 


OM. 1. omcu. 


s>in 


ACT-*D 


ACT-fO 


390.00 


APRIL 1( 


wua 


»iIT2 


TOTS 


PATTIM 


470,000.00 




BEERE 1 CO. 1000 9*5 


»in 




HTTN K 


34,290.00 an t*/x m 




ni» OMP HSO MRS 


9IT2 




Hrm 12 


901,131.00 «af4/30 % 




PEN20IL 24S0 9flS 


B>IT2 




KTT* 12 


119,437.00 Oia M/3D 4( 




w. anw Am sooo ME citi 




Hrmie 


371,125.00 ma •»/» 75 




aw CD 24S MS 


9IT2 




KTTK 12 


114,1K.00 OKT 94/30 43 
1,(17,415.00 


APRIL TOTAL 










(,002.545.00 



573 



■IT ri MoJkn 

Mil ODTIIMKK 






VT n, 


MDJEC1 


un 


09miKm» 


■LICITW 


NQJECI 


. mxatr 


■am 


mil M 


0H1I«T« 


aiT 


micsF 


wc\s»-m 


3,000.00 


»RIl M 


IC19. 


UIS 


mtc-m 


MDISDeSEF 


1,000.00 

^oeo.oo 


wnit 


IE iirr'L cwTAici 


JMC 


ORn> 


•OCR 


BO. 00 


milt 


ai s. Mass 


JM 


OFP 


•OCR 


1,000.00 


miL « 


UBOfll 


MC 


ORFP 


MTTW 


1,000.00 


miL7 


mis 


aiFF 


CRFP 


mnoN 


130,000.00 


miL? 


fOBJSSi 


»c 


ORFP 


MTT» 


3,000.00 


•>«Il T 


neon 


•IKCT mil 


ORFP 


KNTIIO. 


100 


Mil 14 


0<WTS 


MC 


ORFP 


•OCR 


eo.oo 


mil 1* 


MMt 


aiFf 


CRFP 


•OCR 


2,000.00 


Mil M 


MTICI 


JM 


ORFP 


•OCR 


430.00 


MIL 17 


stunssER 


WIS 


ORFP 


•OCR 


n,ooo.oo 


MIL 17 


wejBOi 


MC 


ORFP 


•OCR 


Si, 000. 00 


Vfll tl 


Mils 


tlCn RAIL 


ORFP 


RATTIM 


100.00 


MIL tl 


CMtLLEKI 


MC 


ORFP 


MTTW 


100.00 


MIL B 


Oiorn 


UIS 


ORFP 


Mnn 


5,000.00 


MIL £3 


wiscai 


airF 


CRFP 


MTTtM 


13,000.00 


MIL t* 


ifMrnin 


airf 


- ORFP 


mnm 


3,000.00 


MIL 21 


neon 


BIR/lfllL 


ORFP 


•OCR 


3.00 
2iO,X0.0O 


MIL 1 


VKYLE 


MC 


1D«S 


MTTOI 


130,000.00 


Mill 


SID0O6 


MIS 


TWS 


MTTW 


2,300.00 


MILS 


MISTIM 


aiFF 


to*s 


WTTON 


- 1,000.00 


MIL U 


MUOS 


VI T2 


Tors 


wnn 


470,000.00 
(13,900.00 




in Bunx PTiE sooo M6 win 




MnNK 


171,125.00 Oia M/30 75 




■« CO 24K M5 


VITI 




KTTKOe 


114,l«.00 OKTM/JO 43 




KN20IL 2430 M6 


VIU 




HnN 12 


111,437.00 Oia H/X U 




ni» OMP MSO M6 


VITI 




MTm 12 


901,131.00 Oia M/IO 9S 




KUC 1 OL 1000 M6 


9IT2 




HTDiK 


14,230.00 OKT M/X 14 
1,147,1&00 


MIL 14 


F. airriM mw 


aiFF 


KT-fUl 


CT-fO 


9,000.00 


MIL 14 


Ot(.KlS( 


aiFF 


«r-fn» 


«T-fn 


100.00 


MIL 14 


CMt. 1. IMMCll 


9in 


rr-fo 


ar-FD 


BO. 00 


MIL 21 


mrrm 


a.m 


Ct-fD 


CT-FED 


100. OO 
5,930.00 


MIL TUTU. 










2,002,345.00 



0029129 



574 



P^.«Si^ 



rit DATi/niciNd DfTHY 

K IOTA. C9<niIK/TI9e: Al OWWUBTKK 



mteV 



CDniiftmN 



■lICtTOII 



PKum 



maun 



Mun 



•XIK 1 


CTBYll 


JM 


vn 


nm»t 


130,000.00 


«><I1L t 


IC IITL OKTAIIC* 


JM 


CRFP 


SDCR 


CM. 00 


MIL t 


B.I t. jRcas 


JM 


ORFP 


•OCR 


1,000.00 


0*11 4 


LIMCa/aMLFWTM nis 


J»C 


CRFP 


•OCR 


1,000.00 


mm 7 


KIME 


aiFF 


CRFP 


MTTW 


190,000.00 


«PRII. 7 


FUBUSm 


JN 


CRFP 


ABTTW 


9,000.00 


ma 7 


WCOfT 


DtCn NAIL 


CAFP 


KNTIIGL 


100 


«M1L 9 


sintm; 


MIS 


Tore 


ASTTW 


£,900.00 


MHIL « 


MISTIAN 


a IFF 


TO»S 


PRTTW 


1,000.00 


mill 14 


WORTS 


jnc 


CAFP 


SDCR 


eo.oo 


APRIL 14 


mfinta 


JW 


CRFP 


•OCR 


490.00 


VIIIL 14 


MM 


aiFT 


CRFP 


•DCR 


2,000.00 


«PRIL 14 


OL KISS 


a IFF 


ro-An 


ACT-FEI 


100.00 


(MIL 14 


aiFf 


aiFT 


FED-AD 


AH-fEI 


9,000.00 


HXIL 14 


»>ITZ 


•>in 


FEJ-An 


An-fO 


so. 00 


RP«IL U 


KMWOOD 


VIT2 


TOtS 


MTTW 


470, 000. 00 


«P<IL 17 


FEAeusn 


jnc 


CAFP 


•OCR 


9,000.00 


APRIL 17 


VLMSSTR 


MIS 


CAFP 


•OCR 


20,000.00 


APRIL 21 


HARRIS 


tllCn MIL 


ORFP 


PATTW 


100.00 


APRIL tl 


ORMIIAD 


J»C 


CAFP 


PATTn 


100.00 


APRIL 21 


OUFFITH 


aiFf 


CRFP 


ACT-FIB 


100.00 


APRIL S 


OAeern 


MIS 


CAFP 


PRTTW 


9,000.00 


APRIL 23 


OAISCOl 


a IFF 


CAFP 


Mnw 


19,000.00 


APRIL 24 


LEMFTTER 


aiFF 


CRFP 


MTTIM 


9,000.00 


APRIL 2S 


OWLtCTm 


aiFF 


ATRC 


MDism 


9,000.00 


APRIL n 


KISl 


MIS 


ATRC 


MDISW 


1,000.00 


APRIL 2S 


MCO<T 


tIKMIIL 


CAFP 


SAOCR 


9.00 




OEERE 1 Ca 1000 M5 


»:n 




NTTN K 


14,250.00 OKT I4/3D 34 




Di» coAP laso MS 


mm 




KTTN K 


901,131.00 orr 14/30 % 




PEX20IL 2430 MS 


vm 




HTTWK 


119,437.00 Orr 94/30 42 




im. Iim> (CTE 9000 M6 VIT2 




MTTNi2 


371, 129. 00 OKT 94/30 75 




BM CO 24K MS 


9m 




HTTHK 


114,192.00 OKI 94/30 49 


*RIL TOTAL 










t002,54S.OO 



A OCC91T0 



575 



KUYKENDALL COMPANY 



May 5, 1986 



Mr. Dan Conrad, Executive Director 

National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 

305 4th Street, NE 

Washington, D. C. 20002 

Dear Mr. Conrad; 

As per our agreement please consider this letter as an 
invoice for consulting, research, and resource information 
from the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation. Please forward your 
contribution of $5,000 to my attention at the following 
address: 

Gulf ( Caribbean Foundation 
P. 0. Box 40841 
Washington, D. C. 20016 

This sum covers our advisory and consulting contribution to 
the CONTRA Aid effort for the remainder of 1986. 

Very truly yours. 




DK:lp 



M7 M Alfcet. «^ • Vkfkiagtoo. DC WOO) 



576 



C H 041499 



Fund Raisers Meeting-May 23. 1986 

Ronald Reagan received over sixty percent of the vote. 
But we are to do Is use that as one of the keys. Don't 
forget this is not a election campaign. This is an 
Influence campaign. You are seeking to influence people 
to support the President's full funding needs and a key 
element of this influence is education. As to the threat 
the Communist pose if is not funded correctly. We may 
have an opportunity to move a lot of this into an election 
position. For instance wo are in the process right now of 
finding out what are the contested races in those 
districts where the President got over sixty percent of 
the vote. What the position of the incumbent is as well 
as the challenger. If the Incumbent Is week on SDI and 
the challenger Is strong on SDI and the voting population 
strong on SDI our saturation educational ads cannot but 
help Republican challenge. So when these people give us 
$30,000.00 and our ads cost $35,000.00 day around the 
country they are in many districts literally giving a 
political contribution to support President Reagan's 
congressional candidates. They are giving us $30,000.00 
to support a challenger candidate In these districts. 
That Is an incredible incentive for these people to give. 
Because we are picking the issue that is popular with the 
population, an Issue that is popular with the President in 
an area where the congressman may not be supporting the 
President as such as the people want, being that it is an 
election year by hyping this issue and bringing it up and 
highlighting the fact by Implication that the challenger 
supports this issue. We are really going to be giving a 
$30,000-00 plus contribution to these challenger 
candidates. Now, you might say that to someone who is a 
political freak and they'll go hm, never thought you could 
do that and the ajiswer to that Is look Mr. Jones this 
wofflsji Is trylnc to sell cookies In Reno she doesn't to 
many people she can't get her message out. If you put a 
message on television talking about how good chocolate 
chip cookies are general and saturate It, these people are 
going to start connecting her, the person who makes them 
with the desire to have them and you are definitely going 
to help her business. This is an Incredibly subtle 
political benefit to every single Republican challenger 
and I don't know how you say this without getting burned 
on the telephone, but you can Just say I want to tell you 
what another way to look at this whole campaign. We are 
taking an Issue that the American people support. We are 
advancing this Issue In congressional districts where the 
American people strongly support the President and 
encouraging that incumbent to support the President. If 
that incuabent doesnot support the President, what Is 
actually going to happen is the challenger candidate is 
going to benefit imeasurely from our activities because 
the challenger position and the population position are 
become well known to each other through the medium of our 
television message. On the other hand the fact that we 



577 



" 041500 



^re hyping tht« lasua and the Incumbent doesnot eupport 
•the President will definitely highlight the difference 
t>etween the Incumbent and his. conati tuents . This is an 
incredible political benefit to every single Republican 
running for office. It is essentially a $30,000.00 
contribution to these challengers' campaign with the 
finest issue that Ronald Reagan has in the country today. 
So there are many people who love politics and this is a 
very good way to appeal to them. It Is also tax 
deductible and they don't have to stop. There are four 
districts In the state of Texas where there are four media 
markets where we want this. These people can give 
$120,000.00 if they want to hype this Issue In those 
districts. We have a fabulous election opportunity In 
Louisiana. I don't know what the position of the two 
people is, your book should tell you. But we have an 
Incredible opportunity because the people of Louisiana are 
extremely supportive of the President. We might want to 
spend a million dollars on education in Louisiana. Then 
get the challenger to come after the primary is over in 
September whenever it Is and say that one the reasons why 
he won is because of the vast strong support of President 
Reagan's SDI and that will make the Democratic Party go 
wild. It will strength the President's SDI tremedously. 
so there are inumerable benefits from this program and 
people can understand that they are getting politically on 
the strongest issue the President has in areas where the 
people support hla to expose incumbents positions against 
their constituents. You have got a very strong political 
ad right here and you have not mentioned meeting with t.^e 
President of the U.S. once. You are virtually insuring 
that SDI is going to become a major issue in the campaign. 
Which is the strongest of the President's suits, strongest 
of the Republican Party's suit, it is security, it Is 
family, it Is national defense. 

(You Just can't call them up and say you are going to give 
this money and this going to be a political contribution. 
You don't start that way. You know there are two sides to 
every person, you can look in the front or the back, the 
same person. But the Impact of saying to someone like 
Harry Lucas, Barbara Newington or Ellen Garwood or Mel 
Salwasser, or Salvatori or inumerable political crazys is 
that we are going to give you an opportunity to give 
$30,000.00 tax deductible political contribution and we 
want to tell you how to do it. I mean they may say oh I 
am not going to do that, but they will listen. They will 
be very curious and then when you talk about the fact that 
this is where the President's residual strength is, this 
is where the battles are, this is where we have the 
greatest opportunity to win and this amounts to a 
$3»,ee0.e» political contribution. You don't have to stop 
there. We can carry our messages right on through the 
election and you can deduct every penny you pay for it.) 



i\A r\ oo on 



578 



C H 



041501 



FUNDRAISERS MEETING - MAY 23. 1986 

Ronald Reagan received over sixty percent of the v> tr 
We must use this as one of the keys. Don't forget this i -■ 
not an election campaign. This Is an influence campaie:,. 

You are seeking to influence people to support for it. 
President's full funding needs and a key element of thi^ 
influence is education as to the threat the Communists ;.. 
if It Is not funded correctly. 

We may have an opportunity to move a lot of this i:i'.c. 
an election position. For Instance, we are in the pioce'^s 
right now of finding out what are the contested races i r. 
those districts where the President got over sixty percer.t 
of the vote, what the position of the Incumbent is, as -el 
as the challenger. 

If the Incumbent Is weak on SDI and the challenger is 
strong on SDI and the voting population strong on SDI our 
saturation educational ads cannot but help the Republica:. 
chal lenger . 

So when these people give us $30,000.00 and our ads 
cost $35,000.00 a day around the country they are in ma.-.j; 
districts literally giving a political contribution to 
support President Reagan's congressional candidates. 

They are giving us $30,000.00 to support a challe.n^er 
candidate In these districts. This is an incredible 
incentive for people to give. 

We are picking an issue that Is popular with the 
population. An issue that is popular with the Presicie.'it. 
an area where the congressman may not be supporting the 
President as much as the people want. 

And being that It is an election year, we can hype i; 
issue and it will become known (implied) who Is supportir.^ 
this issue - the Incumbent or the challenger. We are rc<i 
going to be giving a $30,000.00+ contribution to the 
challenger candidates. 

Now, you might say this to someone who is a poll lire 
freak and they'll never have thought you could do thai. > 
the answer to that is, "Look Mr. Jones, there is a woi:iari 
trying to sell cookies in Reno but she isn't getting fiei 
message out to many people. If you put a message on 
television talking about how good chocolate chip roriK i ( 
In general and saturate it, people are going to start 
connecting her, the person who makes them, with the di ^ ; n 
have them and you are definitely going to help hri- 
bus 1 ness . " 



579 



C H 041502 



So there are Innumerable benefits from this program ar.:; 
people can understand that they are getting politically on 
the strongest Issue the President has In areas where the 
people support him to expose Incumbents positions against 
their constituents. 

You have got a very strong political ad right here ar.i 
you have not mentioned meeting with the President of the 
U.S. once. You are virtually Insuring that SDI Is going tc 
become a major Issue In the campaign, which Is the strongest 
of the President's suits, strongest of the Republican 
Party's suit, It Is security. It is family, it Is national 
defense . 

You Just can't call them up and say they are going to 
give this money and It Is going to be a political 
contribution. You don't start that way. You know there are 
two sides to every person, you can look In the front or the 
back, the same person. 

Using this approach on someone like Harry Lucas, 
Barbara Newlngton, Ellen Garwood, Mel Salwasser , Salvaton 
or Innumerable political crazies will have an incredible 
Impact . 

We are going to give them an opportunity to give a 
$30,000.00 tax deductible political contribution and we war.t 
to tell them how to do It. I mean they may say, "Oh, I arr, 
not going to do that", but they will listen. They will be 
very curious. 

Then you talk about the fact that this is where the 
President's residual strength is, this is where the battles 
are, this is where we have the greatest opportunity to win 
and this amounts to a $30,000.00 political contribution. 

And they don't have to stop there. We can carry our 
messages right on through the election and they can deduct 
every penny along the way. 

Now there is something else you want to look at when 
you call people, especially in the new South. Check your 
map to see if we have congressional districts In their 
state, Texas as an example. 

But you can see we don't call them congressional 
districts, we call them media markets, where interestingly 
enough your congressman will hear all this media. This is 
the political component to this issue, which if you say ii 
correctly is absolutely dynamite. 



580 



C H 041503 



I 11 tell you something, you're not going to get mucH 
success with this regretably before the meeting with the 
President. 

But If you call about the first of October and start 
talking about these ads staying on to support these 
candidates, amounts to a $30,000.00 political expenditure. 
We may make ten million dollars in October. We may be doi 
this whole Issue at the wrong time. 



RESPONSE TO "I GET CALLED SO OFTEN FOR CONTRIBUTIONS" 

There are 230 million people In this country. 103 million 
of these people are potential voters. (Eighteen years and 
older). Roughly 3,000 of those 103 million people give 
$5,000 or more to bring about political change in one way 
another. That's about three thousandth of a percent. 

That makes you a rare commodity, Mr. Jones. You are in 
demand becuase you're one of few needles in a sky high 
haystack . 

You are part of that three thousandth percent who 
care enough about the future of American democracy and the 
policies of our government to be generous and contribute t 
the direction of our nation. This Is why you're called so 
frequently . 

People look for other people to help solve a problem. 
People search you out seeking your support to help solve 
problems. The American political system is no different. 
It is very natural that your support would be sought to he 
solve political problems. 

You are a very blessed individual that you do have th 
sense enough to participate and that you have been blessed 
with the finances to be able to participate. 



581 



Lichtenstein & Company 

Communlcanont Snaiesies Prosrams and Maienau 

23 Nay 1986 

MEMORANDUM FOR SPITZ CHANNELL 

FROM: JACK LICHTENSTEIN 

SUBJECT: CONGRXSSIONAL SURVEYS ON CONTRA AID VOTE 

Of 75 oambars I had targeted in our grassroots constituent 
correspondence canpaign in* support of the President's aid request, I 
followed up with 51 offices, a 67 percent survey. Twenty-one were 
contacted by telephone, 30 in personal visits. 

Thirty-five of the office* contacted cooperated. Some flatly 
ref-.:sed tc discuss their constituent coaimunications or this issue. 

Salient points fron the 35 who cooperated: 

1. Many said they frequently hear fron the anti-aid side, 
and the days before the 20 March vote represented the first najor 
outpouring of support for aid. 

2. In the constituent correspondence battle: 

a. we were beaten in 13 districts (four of whose 
members supported the aid, anyway, and one of whose did not vote) ; 

b. we won in 9 districts (seven of whose nembers 
supported the aid) ; and 

c. we drew even in 13 districts (seven of whose 
members supported the aid) . 

3. At the time of the vote, the pro-aid side was gaining 
tremendous Bomentun. Many offices said that pro-aid communications 
increased dramatically following the President's televi sed address. 
Most of these cooBunications were phone calls, since the address was 
just a few days before the vote. This sudden surge of support may 
partly explain why acre Beabers in our survey voted against wishes 
of anti-aid constituents than voted against the wishes of pro-aid 
constituents. The tide seeaed to be turning strongly. Had the 
address been earlier, the vote light have been different. 

4. In the opinion of aany office*, the anti-aid correspon- 
dents seeaed acre knowledgeable of the issues and better organized 
to express their opposition. The pro-aid correspondents were acre 
visceral, probably reflecting their standing as ordinary, individual 
Americans. Their aajor arguaent in favor of the aid^ often seemed to 
be that "President Reaaan wants it." or "The Pres ident )tnows what's 

right-" 

I believe that this is evidence of the President's vast store 
of political capital. He continues to enjoy strong support at the 
grassroots and an ability to aove the Anerican people to action when 
his appeal is delivered in a personal and tiaely Banner. 

M 00"t. 1 1 

1 629 K street. NW.SuUe 1 1 oo. Washington. DC 20006 202/785«7i3 (Telecopier 202/331 42i2) 



582 



EuzAUTM S Hoorai Foundation 

Sum 1 )00 

Thiu PAtKWAr 

PmUOIUHIA. PiNNSTlVANIA 19102 



May 27, 1986 



Miss Jane E. McLaughlin 
NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE 

PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 
305 Fourth St., N. E. 
Suite 1000 
WashlnTton, D.C. 20002 

Dear Jane: 

Enclosed Is the contribution which I mentioned to you on the 
telephone ten days ago. I am a couple of days late sending 
It but I hope It will do some good. 

Please have Ollle contact me to let me know what he Is going 
to do with It, If that Is possible. My office number Is: 293- 
0216: my home number Is : 688-6118. 

Very truly yours. 



Bruoe H. Hooper 
Secretary 

BHH/emm 

Enclosure 



A 0027706 



583 



KUYKENDALL COMPANY 



June 10, 1986 



MEMORANDUM: SPITZ CHANNELL FOR THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR 
THE PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 
FROM: DAN KUYKENDALL 

RE: CONFIRMATION OF CONSULTING ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN 
SPITZ CHANNELL AND DAN KUYKENDALL 



Dan Kuykendall hereby agrees that he will be available to 
Spitz Channell or his specific designee for consulting in the 
area of politics, public affairs, and aovernment operations 
for twelve (12) months beginning on June 1, 1986. 

It is agreed that Kuykendall will be available for personal 
or phone consulting whenever that service is needed on a 
reasonable basis. 

The Kuykendall Company will bill the "National Endowment for 
the Preservation of Liberty" for 53,500 at the end of each 
month, plus the cost of any travel or entertainment done by 
Kuykendall with prior approval of Channell. 



Signed this 10th day of June, 1986 . 



Carl Russell Channell 
National Endowment for the 
PerservatioB of Liberty 

*/. -^*- 'f 

■ Dan Kuykendall 
Kuykendall Company 



SIT Vd iSlrcrl S\ • Hathmjlon IH 20OO^ 



584 



KUYKENDALL COMPANY 



-^..# 



0-I..UJJ1 , , \ if 



P....i~< 



>J^" 



June 10, 1986 



MEMORANDUM TO: SPITZ CHANNELL 
FROM: DAN KUYKENDALL 



RE: YOUR REQUEST CONCERNING MONTHLY COSTS 

OF OPERATING GULF k CARIBBEAN FOUNDATION'S 
PRESENCE IN WASHINGTON 



MONTHLY BUDGET FOR GULF t CARIBBEAN FOUNDATION 

Consultino Services, Dan Kuykendall $1,300 

Adtrinistrative Services, Kuykendall Company 7S0 

Telephone, Postage, Supplies, Rent, etc. 450 

$2,S00 

Consulting Services, IBC 1 ,500 

TOTAL FIXED BUDGET $4,000 

Travel (Monthly average, to be billed.) 450 

TOTAL INCLUDING VARIABLE $4,4 50 



IP 






M7 Vd Aired At • Wuhmgio« IX." KXXJi • JOWfc 11% 



585 



July 2, 1986 

TO: Spitz Channell 

FROM: Bruce Cameron, Center for Deoocricy In the Aaerlces 

RE: Why the President Won on Contra Aid 



In part, it was the President who won contra aid In the House last week: His 
phone calls and other contacts with Members made a difference. "When a 
President gets to the point that he can pinpoint 20 people and work face to 
face with then, he's hard to stop," Tip O'Neill was quoted as saying. "One 
fellow said he had never spoken to a president and he was awed. How do you 
turn down a president?" (Of the 11 Membersr who rejected contra aid In March 
and made the difference this time by voting "yes," I note three Members — 
Carroll Hubbard (D-KY), Chalmers Wylle (R-OH), and Larry Hopkins (R-KS) ~ who 
switched because of a Presidential plea.) 

Unacknowledged by the Speaker was the President's address June 25, the day 
before the vote. The speech, suggested by foroer Mondale adviser Bernard 
Aronson, cannot account for one vote In favor, but It did establish the high 
moral ground and the Intellectual basis for bipartisanship. The next day the 
New York Times changed Its tone. If not Its position, on contra aid 180 
degrees. Majority Whip Too Foley was forced to pay his respect to the 
President on the House floor, and House debate proved surprisingly civilized. 
All of this favored the consideration of some form of aid, forcing members to 
focus on the merits of the aid amendments. 

Still, Wednesday's 221-209 victory cannot be attributed wholly to last- 
minute White House lobbying. The groundwork for this vote was being laid over 
a period of months. In this regard, three events stand out: 

1. The a^polotaeot of Aab«aaador Hafalb: Hablb had great credibility among 
House moderates. Including Rowland, Snowe, Wylle, Frenzel, and 
Bustamante. By mid-June he had been working Central America over two 
months; he made the term "good-faith diplomatic effort," and Its 
exhaustion, more meaningful. In a memo last May (1983), Bruce called for 
the appointment of a special envoy to Central America who was credible to 
Democrats. 

2. lo Hmy, tlva* wtAs of aectliiKa ketweeo Irtaro Crut, Alfooao Kobelo, and 
tdolto Cal«ro, th* chroa principal* of UNO, and tba PDN political 
dlractorata. These aeetings set in aotlon a series of measures (yet to be 
tested) that could give more clout to non-FDN forces (Crui and Robelo, wi:- 
whom most Heaber* identify), establish deaocratlc procedures within UNO, 
and build a credible international Ixage — aoaethlng the FDN could never 
do. As you know, Bruce was in Miami 10 day* out of the three weeks: twice 
helped intervene with Robelo and Cruz to keep the talks on track. I have 
since learned that the announced changes by UNO impressed Congressmen Rav, 
Aapin, and Bustaoanta, thraa Dcaocrata who awlcchcd in favor of contra 



« 007605^ 



586 



•Id. The aeetlngs and the changes neutrillied opposition to the "contras" 
by aaklng UHO refora a sattcr of open debate. And the modest reforms that 
were produced, which the Administration said It would encourage, showed the 
Admlastratlon could make good on Its promise. By mid-June Members who were 
going to vote for Barnes/Hamilton could only dlslngenuosly question the 
reality of UNO reform. 

3. The HcCurdy coagrcaaloaal delegacloo to Central Aaerlca In early June. 

Bruce convinced McCurdy to lead a delegation in old-May in the hope of 
acquainting swing iterabers with the leaders of Central Aiserlca's new 
democracies and letting these members decide for themselves the viability 
of Contadora. All 13 Members were horrified by the Sandinistas (they set 
with Daniel Ortega) and recognized them as the real obstacle to peace in 
Central America. They also acknowledged that the Central American four — 
on their own, rather than under Contadora nation auspices — were the 
appropriate managers for any Central American treaty arrangement. (In 
fact, when Contadora broke up June 6, It chose to lay low and pass the 
diplomatic ball to the Central Americans; thus Contadora played almost no 
role in the debate on the House floor June 23). 

Four members on the trip switched their vote in favor of military aid 
to the contras — Snowe (R-ME), Bustaiiiante (D-TX), Rowland (R-CT), and Ray 
(D-CA). Reportedly, Freniel (R-MN) also switched because of influence from 
Ray and Snowe. I went to Guatemala to ensure that President Cerezo would 
meet with Members on their visit. 

All 13 Members returned convinced that any aid package to the contras 
had to Include Increased economic support for Guatemala, Honduras, El 
Salvador, and Costa Rica as well. This new regional dimension proved 
extremely popular; the Inclusion of economic aid to the region's 
democracies In the Skelton/Edwards amendment provided enough compromise a^.i 
political cover for Rowland (R-CT), Frenzel (R-MN), and Wylie (R-OH) co 
vote for the substitute amendment. 

Against this background the Skelton/Edwards proposal, not the McCurdy bill, 
made more sense. Both proposals established a Bipartisan Commission that 
monitors negotiations, etc.; both called for more accountability of U.S. fund- 
to the resistance, both gave large sums of economic aid to Central American 
democracies. The difference turned on a second vote for military aid. 
McCurdy's second vote on October 1, 1986 on military aid was untenable. Few 
.members wanted to vote on contra aid again so close to the November 
elections. The rcslatance's need for anti-air defenses up front were 
Imperative; their absence In the McCurdy bill hardly provided an incentive f it 
the Sandinistas to consider negotiating (just the opposite). And yet the 
Democratic leadership would not budge on this Issue. Bustamante, Rowland, i -ii 
Snowe coossquently parted company with McCurdy. Robin Tallon (D-TN) and Oi-y 
Mica (I>-FL), thought to have been wavering, never joined the leadership. 

Meanwhile, Skelton/Edwards provided both military aid up front and anoC-i^r 
vote on additional military aid, including the delivery of heavy weapons neKt 
February. Essentially, this was the compromise position Bruce and I advance.-! 
May, though with different figures: S55 million, including military aid, up 
front; Si5 million released upon a second vote. McCurdy and some Members jl--- 
to him never accepted this idea, perhaps because of pressure from the Housj 



<* 007to060 



587 



leadership. 1 hoped that • aodlflcetlon — • Presidential letter proolslng to 
respect a two-houae vote of disapproval next February — would lead mart 
Deaocrats to endorse Skelton/Edwards. This Idea also proved unacceptable. 

In fairness to HcCurdy, It should be noted that Skelton/Edwards attracted 
votes by taking whole key aectlons of the basic McCurdy draft — e.g., the 
economic aid package, the Bipartisan Coamlsslon. Also, McCurdy succeeded in 
forcing the House leadership to hold another vote on contra aid first after the 
President's request was defeated in March and then after the April voce was 
aborted by the Republicans. 

III. Some remarks on the members who switched their votes on contra aid. 

Eleven members who previously voted against the President's package In March 
switched in favor of the administration's proposal. They Included six Democrats 
-- Les Aspln (Ul), Mario Biaggl (NY), Albert Bustamante (TX), Carroll Hubbard 
(KY), Marilyn Lloyd (TN) and Richard Ray (GA) — and five Republicans — Bill 
Frenzel (MN), Larry Hopkins (KS), John Rowland (CT), Olympla Snowe (ME), and 
Chalmers Wylie (OH). 



Aspln, Lloyd, and Ray were not surprises, and were factored into our vote- 
count, although some claim Aspln was undecided until the very last moment. 

Aspln previously Intended to vote for aid in April, following his trip to 
Nicaragua with Bob Lelken. It could be that the delay in his vote June 25 was 
to save face, because the President referred to him favorably on the contra 
issue in his Tuesday speech. Contra reform was also very important to Aspin. 

Lloyd had been to the rebel base camps In March before the last vote, ca:ae bac< 
and voted against aid, though promised on the next vote she would voce for 
it. No big surprise, therefore, and I knew she was much influenced by Duarce's 
conversations with her. 

Ray was one of the cosponsors of Che winning amendment, a member of the 
delegation to Central Aaerica in June, and an absolute tiger on contra 
reform. He personally went to Miami to evaluate the outcome of the contra 
me e t i ng s . 

Hubbard came out publicly Tuesday afternoon and said the President had 
convinced him of the need for military aid. 

Bustamante . a leading ■ember of Che McCurdy group who speaks Spanish, formed a 
bond with Central Anerican leaders on his trip there in June. He also did no: 
want to vote agaio on military aid In October. 

Biaggi's yes vote is more of a mystery. According to his aide, there's no bis 
news about the switch; he felt the President made a good case and he went »<i;i 
it. The New York Times quotes Biaggl as saying, "The concras are scoundrels 
and the Sandinstas are scoundrels. .. but when it cooes to the national Incere:.-. , 
a tie has to go with the President." 



588 



UPOBLICAMS 

Snowe wttit on ch« trip to Central Aacrlca In June. Prctentttlont by Ccrezo, 
Duartc, Arlta, and Azcona aovcd her, and the aid package to the four 
deaocraclca, plua Hablb, convinced her there waa a regional approach. 

Wylle clala* to have been lapressed with econoolc aid package. He was assured 
by President and' Vice-President that allegatlona of contra corruption were 
unfounded and convinced by adalnlstratlon that Sandinistas could not be brought 
to negotiating table without allltary aid. The Sandinistas hadn't done 
anything In the last ninety days. 

Hopkins voted because of a presidential plea. 

Frenrel 's negative vote in March was not enphatlc; It centered on the lack of 
regional policy; this tloe he felt the region was addressed. He was Influenced 
by Ray, Chandler, and Snowe's unfavorable view of Ortega and their affinity for 
the other presidents. 

Rowland doesn't regard his vote as a switch since this proposal was different, 
I.e., the economic aid package. Rowland himself worked with Skelton on the 
economic aid language. He also thought a second vote was going to have no 
Impact on the Sandinistas and would not unite the core <> Central American 
countries. 



w 007feOe: 



589 



CEKTCM FOR DSIOCRACT III TBE Ma/UCAS 






Brue« f. Ca 
fr**idant 



August 7. 1986 



Hr. Carl Channell 
National Endownent for the 

Preservation of Liberty 
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, NU 
Suite 330 
Washington, DC 20004 



Dear Spitz: 



We won! 

It was a very great pleasure working with NEPL to achieve 
this great victory. The renewal of the "contra" progran under new 
leadership In the Administration and with Increased focus on human 
rights and democratic principles shows that Democrats like myself 
can find commn ground with conservative Republicans when the 
stakes are American security and freedom for the people of 
Nicaragua. 

As a Democratic lobbyist 1 could see that NEPL's television 
ads and the spokesman program were of decisive importance in 
bringii^ the truth about Nicaragua to citizens in the 
Congressional districts of "swing" voters. I think the American 
people BOW have a better understanding of the. global nature of the 
Soviet threat and how it operates In Central America. 



Sincerely, 

Bruce P. Cameron . 
President 



7Z9 J5t>i Str«*t, t.V. 



Waahington, D.C. XOOOS • (202) 347~13< 



590 



August 25. 1986 



Me-no to David Fischer 



RE: Draft memo for Don Regan 

FROM: SDitz Channe I I . National EnCowWit for' ihe. 
Preservation of Liberty (Liy^ K'^y^^.tc'^ '] 



n 



X.... 



<L 



^:.-' 



In January 1986. the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty and Sentinel Initiated a $4.1 
million educational and lobbying campaign which eventually 
reached 25 states. The purpose of this 8 month campaign was 
to give support to President Reagan's Nicaraguan policies 
with special focus on the Freedom Fighter aid package the 
President submitted to the Congress for approval In January. 

Many consider this effort to be the largest of its kind 
devoted to supporting Ronald Reagan on a foreign policy 
Issue In the past 6 years. 



Television educational 
broadcast by the National E 
Liberty In 49 Congressional 
Columbia In varying degrees 
August (139 days). Ads wer 
Congressional districts who 
to their vote for or agalns 
$2,500,000 went to the tele 



"$755 C 

Congress I o 
advocacy t 
the produc 
Suppor t I ng 
secret ly 1 
staff of 5 
and the Dl 
Ass I stant 
Department 



and Informational messages were 
ndowment for the Preservation of 

districts and the Distric of 

of Intensity from March through 
e broadcast in d i f f icu 1 t-to-w 1 n 
se Congressmen were undecided as 
Freedom Fighter aid. Over 

ision campaign alone. 



CO was spent by S 
na I support for P 
elevision message 
t Ion of two 30 ml 

the Nicaraguan F 

n Nicaragua, acti 

newspaper ads 1 

strict of Columb I 

Secretary, Bureau 

of State, EM lot 



entlnel directly to build 
resident Reagan. This included 
n 32 Congressional districts, 
nute television documentaries 
reedom Fighter cause filmed 
ve lobbying of Congress by a 
n major media markets (New York 
a), and continuous work with 

of I nter-Amer lean Affairs, 
t Abrams . 



591 



$600,000 was scent by the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty to conduct pro-N I caraguan Freedom 
Fighter speaking tours in 27 Congressional districts In the 
7 months prior to the first House vote In March on Freedom 
F I ghter aid. 

$85,000 was devoted to nine Washington, D.C. briefings 
with opinion leaders, political activists, and volunteer 
supporters for the NIcaraguan Freedom Fighter cause. 

On the day In June of the historic House reversal, 
which resulted In a victory for Ronald Reagan on Freedom 
Fighter aid. it was determined that the National Endowment 
for the Preservation of Liberty and Sentinel had carried the 
support program for the President successfully Into 32 of 
the 51 Democratic districts that ultimately stood with 
Ronald Reagan on this Issue. 



592 



International Business Communications 

'912 sunderland place n w 

washington dc ?0036 • 1603 

telephone 12021 387-3002 telex 3718712 ibcusa 



MB^ TO: Mr. Carl Russell Oiannell 
President 

National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty 
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 
Suite 350 South 
Washington, D.C. 20005 

FROM: Richard R. Miller 

DATE: September 5, 1986 

SUBJECT: Professional fees 



PROFESSIONAL FEES 

David C. Fischer riigust retainer $20,000.00 fJ^ '''- 

David C. Fischer September retainer $20,000.00 

TOTAL $40,000.00 



593 



"AUG**" sc'vtce ccNTii 



Western 
Union 



Mailgram 



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TO •€ K» •T MAIUOIUM MHIACl Ut HfVf «« UOf »0« WKTIKN UNlO« * TOU "H »HONI NUM»|.$ 



594 



THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE PRESERVATION O 

LIBERTY 



Octobvr 1, 1986 



Chann*ll Corportatien 
c/o Cx»cutlv» Sultva 
1331 Pennsylvania Av». NW 
Washington. DC 20004 



I M V I C E 



Refund R*qu»at for Ovarpayavnt 
of October R»nt 



11,990. 59 



Dua and payable upon recaipt 



A '""'-'- 



1331 Pennsylvania Ave.. NW. Suite 350 South Washington. D.C 20004 (202)662-8700 



595 



Hii^iON; .7: mix 



M^O TO: Mr. Carl Riissell Qiannell 
President 

National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty 
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 
Suite 350 South 
Washington, D.C. 20005 

FROM: Richard Miller 

DATE: October 8, 1986 

SUBJECT: Professional Fees 



PROFESSIONAL FEES 

David C. Fischer October retainer $20,000.00 
{Please make check payable to International Business Connunications) 



A 0i:ir7B99 



596 






/^ A^MoMi^ y4eAM/<Ujt^ yUUA'^tiAjL^ 



A '}K\17\1B 



597 

Nofziger & Bragg 



October 15, 1986 



Mr. Dan Conrad 

Channell Corporation 

Suite 350 

1331 Pennsylvania Ave., NW 

Washington, DC 20004 

Dear Oan: 

The purpose of this agreement is to set forth the terms of the 
agreement pursuant to which Nofziger Communications will 
provide consulting services for Channell Corp.. 

Nofiiger Communications provides consultation services to 
hf«'^hf ^^'^k'?'! entities and has advised Channell that it 
IrLi capability to provide same in accordance with the 
Mnr««!J' ^* ^*'" agreement. Channell Corporation has 
expressed its desire to have Nofziger Comm. provide such 
services with respect to issues which Channell nay. 
from time to time, bring to the attention of Nofziger 
Comm. Therefore, the parties to this agreement hereby 
mutually agree as follows: «'»«/ 

.„-* J't .C***""*^! Corporation hereby appoints Nofziger Comm. 
and Nofziger Communications hereby agrees to serve, as 
consultant to Channell Corp. 

2. tlofziger Communications will advise Channell Corp. 
?i^^rfT*?**^*' "* various issues, including the promulgation by 
Federal agencies of rules and regulations which impact the 
-nfi«'fK!f -r^'i*?,*' Channell Corporation. Channell Corp. 
agrees that it shall not use these consulting services or 
M!!f!^ '° ^ * "*"* °f Franklyn (Lyn) Nofziger or the name of 
™«?f^« ►K^'^^S".**' Nofziger 4 Bragg Communications in 
connection with any fund raising or promotional activities, it 
being specifically understood that this relationship is for 
advice and counsel only. 

3. This is ■ non-exclusive agreement, and Nofziger Comm. 
may render aiailar services to other persons, firms or 
corporations, and Channell Corporation may employ or engage 
other persons, firms or corporations to perform similar 
•ervices for it. 



liZe EigMMnm StraM. N W WMhington. DC 20036 (ZOZ) 332-40M 



598 



October 15, 1986 
Channell Corporation 
Page -2- 



4. Nofziger Comm. shall act at all times herein as an 
independent contractor, and nothing contained herein shall be 
construed to create the relation of principal and agent or 
employer and employee between the parties hereto. Channell 
Corp. is solely responsible for its own contractual and other 
obligations for performance of work and for all guarantees, 
bonds, salaries, expenses, taxes or any other liabilities 
incurred by Channell Corp. during the term of this agreement. 
Nofziger Comm. is not authorized to incur any debts or 
liabilities on behalf of Channell Corp., and Nofziger Comm. 
will in no manner be obligated to pay any monies on behalf of 
Channell Corp. 

5. As compensation for the services rendered 

by Nofziger Communications during the term of this agreement, 
Channell Corp. will pay to Nofziger Comm. the sum of Two 
Hundred Forty Thousand Dollars ($240,000.00), payable in 
installments of Twenty Thousand Dollars ($20,000.00) per 
month, the first payment to be made on or before November 1, 
1986 and successive payments to be made on or before the first 
of each month through November 1, 1987. 

6. Channell Corp. agrees to reimburse Nofziger Comm. for 
all travel and lodging expenses incurred by Nofziger Comm. in 
the performance of its obligations under the terms of this 
agreement plus an administrative charge not to exceed 15% of 
the expenses actually incurred. Said travel and lodging 
expenses shall not exceed the sum of eight hundred dollars 
($800) pet day without the prior written consent of Channell 
Corp. Itemized bills for expenses incurred by Nofziger Comm. 
pursuant to this agreement shall be mailed to Channell Corp. 
monthly and shall be due and payable to Nofziger Comm. on 
receipt. 

7. Channell Corp. shall not directly or indirectly 
charge any compensation or expense payable under this 
agreement against any contract with the Government for any 
product or services. 

8. In recognition by both parties hereto of the fact 
that the services to be rendered by Nofziger Comm. are 
personal, professional services, the parties hereby agree that 
Nofziger Corns, shall not subcontract with third parties to 
render the services covered by this agreement without Channell 
Corporation's prior written approval, and the parties further 
agree that no rights under this agreement shall be assigned or 
transferred by either party without the prior written consent 
of the other party. 



:B646 



599 



October 15, 1986 
Channell Corporation 
Page -3- 



9. This agreement shall commence on October 15, 1986 and 
shall continue in effect through October 15, 1987. Either 
party may terminate this agreement with or without cause upon 
thirty (30) days written notice to the other party. The term 
of this agreement may be extended beyond the original term 
by written agreement of the parties. If this agreement is 
cancelled the obligation to pay future fees Is also cancelled. 

10. All final bills for expenses incurred by Nofziger 
Comm. prior to the date of termination shall be mailed to 
Channell Corporation as soon as practicable following said 
termination. Nofziger Comm. shall deliver to Channell Corp. 
all papers and other materials prepared by Nofziger Comn. 
for the use of Channell Corporation under this agreement 
within thirty (30) days following the termination of 

this agreement. All information obtained by Nofziger Comir. 
about Channell Corp. and Channell Corporation's activities 
shall be kept confidential and shall not be disclosed by 
Nofziger Comm. after termination of this agreement without 
Channel Corporation's prior written approval. 

11. Nofziger Comm. will be free to render consulting 
services to other organizations. It is understood, however, 
that if Nofziger Comm. becomes aware that any organization 
to which. it is or may be rendering services sponsors or 
produces goods or services which conflict with Channel 
Corporation's, Nofziger Comm. will notify Channell Corp. If 
such consulting activity could result in a conflict of 
interest Channell Corp. will have the right to terminate this 
agreement. 

12. This agreement, and the performances or breach 
hereof, shall be governed by the substantive and procedural 
laws of the District of Columbia. Any disputes arising out of 
or relating to the performance or breach of this agreement 
shall be finally resolved by arbitration held in the District 
of Columbia before a single arbitrator, pursuant to the rules 
then obtaining of the American Arbitration Association. 
Judgment upon any award may be entered In any court of 
competent jurisdiction. 

13. This agreement contains the entire agreement of the 
parties and may be modified only by their mutual agreement in 
writing. Any notice pursuant to this agreement may be made by 
mail, cable or telex to the addresses set forth bereinbelow or 
to such changed address as one party may advise by written 
notice to the other party. 



A 002864 7 



6oa 



October 15, 1986 
Channell Corporation 
Page -4- 



he oartiea ha 

on this .^.ti. day of JZjsIJlJ:*:^^- , 1986, mutually 

agreeing to the terns set forth in this agreement. 



7. 'l*^-J.SL<:^^^J:^^n^^. 

N0F2IGER COMMUNICATIONS, INC. 
1526 - 18th Street, NW 
Washington, DC 20036 




^NNELL CORPORATION 
Suite 350 
1331 Pa. Ave. , NW 
Washington, DC 20004 



601 



Nofzigcr A Bragg 



October 24, 1986 



Mr. Dan Conrad 

Channcll Corporation 

Suite 3S0 

1331 Pennsylvania Ave. , NW 

Washington, DC 20004 



Consulting Services: 

October 15 - November 15, 1986 $20,000 



Please reait to: 

NOPZIGER COmimiCATIONS, INC. 
1S26 - IStb Street, NH 
Washington, DC 20036 
EINt 52-1243358 



1 92« daltManm Stra*!. N W WMKtnQtan. C MOM (2021 33a-40M 



602 




603 












604 



NoTziger A Bragi 



Occvnbct 16, 1986 



Mr. Dsn Conrad 

Channall Corpoiation 

Suitt 3S0 

1331 Pennsylvania Avt. , NH 

Washington, DC 20004 



Consulting Services: 

December 15, 1986 - January IS, 1987 $20,000 



• ATTENTION * 



Please remit to: 

NOPZIGER COMMUNICATIONS, INC. 
1526 - IBth Street, NW 
Washington, DC 20036 
EINi 52-1243358 



1 SM f igMMMh SlTMl N.W WMMngMn. 0.C lOOM (MS) SU-MM 



605 









A 0057160 






606 
KUYKENDALL COMPANY 



December 22, 1986 

Mr. Spitz Channell, President 

National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW - Suite 350 
Washington, D. C. 20002 

Attention: Mr. Dan Conrad 

Fee due for services rendered for December, 1986 $1 2,000.00 

TOTAL DUE KUYKENDALL COMPANY $12,000.00 



KC:lp 



M7 Vd airect *1 • W«illiB«lon D C J00O5 



607 




1201 OlOCOU»T »0«0 ••LTlMOItt M»»YI.»NO 2120* 13011 2W5310 

December 23, 19B6 



Mr. Spitz Channel 

NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE 

PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 

1331 Pennsylvania Ave., NW - Suite 350-S 

Washington, D. C. 20004 

Dear Mr. Channel: 

Mr. Goodman asked me to write you regarding the audit we did 
and sent you, via Federal Express, yesterday. As you can see 
from the covering sheet, the American Conservative Trust owes 
us $122,531.95 and we owe National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty $125,757.57. As soon as we receive a check from 
American Conservative Trust, we will be more than happy to 
reimburse National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

To double check the accuracy of our books, we are attempting to 
match station invoices against monies received. 

Sincerely, 

Melva B. Croghan ~ 



608 




2201 OLD COUIT *0*0 MLTIHMe MAlrUkNO 21201 (3011 2M'UJ0 



December 22, 1986 



AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST Amount Due $ 122,531.95 



NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE 

PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY Credit Balance (125,757.57) 



TOTAL CREDIT ($3,225.62) 



'■"'■■~ZT~H 



609 






MEMO TO: Mr. Carl Russell Channell 
President 

National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty 
1531 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 
Suite 350 South 
Washington, D.C. 20005 

FRCM: Richard R. Miller 

DATE: December 31, 1986 

SUBJECT: Professional Fees 



PROFESSIONAL FEES 



David C. Fischer January retainer $20,000.00 



610 



v:ijiy.Ku<: »ja ■,* 

nii»Oit :K a^«si• 
lUB I'll''; •cjsi 



MEM) TO: Mr. Carl Russell Channell 
President 

National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty 
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 
Suite 350 South 
Washington, D.C. 20005 

FROM: Richard R. Miller 

DATE: January 5, 1987 

SUBJECT: Professional Fees 



PROFESSIONAL FEES: 



For public relations and media consulting on behalf of NEPL 
during the month of January, 1987, please forward a check in 
the amount of $20,000.00 made payable to International 
Business Coraiunications. 



611 



Ikf?-? 



"Reconnaissance* 'Freedom Can't Work* 

"True Colors* 'Korean Airliner". 

"Thank You* *Freedom Can't Work" Garwood 

"President's Oath" "Freedom Can't Work" Pierce* 

"Terrorist Influence" "Terrorism Influence" 

"Hel Icopters" 

"Refugees* Paid by ACT 

"They Are Us" 

"Letter" 

"Throw Money" 

"Morn ing of Peace" ^ 

Paid by NEPL^ 



'Does He Know?" Barnes 
"Fact Check A" Barnes 
"Fact Check B" Barnes 
"Fact Check C" Barnes 
"Time Check 6:30" Barnes 
"Time Check 11:30" Barnes 
"Does He Know?" De La Garza 
"Fact Check A, B. C" De La Garza 

Paid by Sentinel 4 n)C^^ 



612 



I /IM^ >^ a P0UU^ jJ^^J^ 



Public Affairs Strategy 

for 

Spitz Channell t NEPL 



Introduction 






This document is a strategy paper designed to help NEPL and 
you defuse the controversy caused by the recent libelous 
accusations made against you. This a prepared with consul- 
tation from several of your senior consultants and reflects 
our best judgment on the means to put these scurrilous 
charges behind you. We suggest you review this document 
with your attorney, advertising agencies and other consul- 
tants not part of IBC, David C. Fischer 4 Associates, and 
the Kuykendall Co. 



PREMISES: 



The Iranscam money charge made anonymously by Senator 
Kerry and picked up by the Lowell Sun, Miami Herald, 
UPI and NBC-TV, as well as in lesser degree other major 
news organizations is a lie. 

The accusation, coupled with the above charge, that Lt. 
Colonel North coordinated your educational and canpa;gn 
expenditures is patently false. 



FACTORS GOVERNING STRATEGY: 

1. Liberal Denocrati on Capitol Hill have used, and will 
continue to use, the charges to strip you of your 
ability to help the President. 

2. Conservatives and conservative fundraisers are angry 
that you raised money from people they must count on 
for contributions and therefore have dried up as a 
funding source for them. 

3. You are the head of several diverse organizations and 
are the single focus of this and future news stories. 

4. Some of your consultants and ad people have confused 
the issues with reporters and your statements have beer 
used largely to reinforce the notion of North's control 
over your activities. 

5. you have an arsenal of truth and an army of supporters. 
But they must be mobilized. 



613 



CONCLUSION: 

We must begin a three-tr»ck pcogram designed to defuse the 
originsl allegations, cut off Congressional action against 
you and put you back on an even keel. 

The three tracks are as follows: 

TRACK 1 - IRANSCAM ALLEGATION 

JANUARY 15 - 16, 1986 

CONTROLLED RELEASE - Through a controlled media release 
using selected interviews, we will demonstrate the 
dubious nature of these allegations. With the Coopers 
t Lybrand income audit, we will destroy the allegation 
that you got Iranscam money. In the same interviews we 
will drop the fact that we ate preparing libel proceed- 
ings against the Lowell Sun, UPI, Unight Ridder and 
possibly NBC-TV. This will demonstrate our credibility 
and make it possible to deny, believably, that North 
coordinated your activities. 

The present list does not include reporters we might 
**l*ct from the. stack of messages you received They 
•re as follows: 

CBS-TV -- 

Washington Post -- Tom Edsal 

The New York Times -- R.w. Apple 

Wall Street Journal -- 

Baltimore Sun -- Karen Hurser 

New Republic -- Fred Barnes 

Human Events -- Tom Winter 

Time -- Barry Seaman (Still open for discussion) 

AP -- (Still open for discussion) 

After the interviews are completed and we have gone 
through one news cycle, the consulting team will 
present one of two options for the announcement of the 
1987 Central American Freedom Program: 

OPTION 1) - News Conference, January 19 or 20 
National Press Building 

OPTION 2) Controlled Release, January 19-21 
With Political Writers and Editors 

TRACK II - CONGRESSIONAL FOES AND FRIENDS 
JANUARY 5-23 

The select conmttees are not even convening until late 
January and early February. But, during this time, 
staff members will be picking their targets. We shou:<j 



614 



\ 



»novt quickly to ceassure our 
new-found antagonises. " 



friends and to placate ou 



use copies of checks until the Coopers 4 ' ^J 
audit IS through, and only with trusted * 



We will 
Lybrand 

friends. The schedule of meetings and who will attend 
will be handled by Dan Fuykendall in conjunction with 
Lyn Nofjiger and I. B.C. The present targets are broken 
out in three categories: our friends who can publicly 
support us now; reasonable members who have not sup- 
ported us but are men of fair play; and our new antago- 
nists who should be forced to see the truth. The list 
includes all the contact possibilities. 

FFIENDS 



UA*4^ CJ^**^^ 



Broomfield - Dan Kuykendall (DK) 

Trent Lot t - Dan Kuykendall 

Dick Cheney - Dan Kuykendall 

Bob Dole - DK , Dave Fischer, Lyn Nofziger 

Bob Michel- Dan Kuykendall 

Orrin Hatch - Dave Fischer, Dan Kuykendall 



RESPONSIBLE MEMBERS 



Dante Fascell - 


DK, ; 


Sen. Boren - 


Bruci 


Sen. Rudman - 


Dan 1 


Sen. Trible - 


Dan 1 


Bill Richardson- 


FranI 


Kika de la Garza - 


Dan 1 


Claude Pepper 


Penn 


Dan Mica 


Penn 


Sen. Graham 


Deni; 


Dave McCurdy - 


Penn 


Ike Skelton - 


Pen 1 


Bustamante - 


Dan 1 


->3^/V 


^ 


ANTAGONISTS 





Steve Schwartz, Penn Kemble 

e Cameron, Penn Kemble 

Kuykendall 

Kuykendall 

k Gomez 

Kuykendall 

Kemble, Denise O'Leary 
, Denise O'Leary, DK 
se O'Leary, Steve Schwartz 

Kemble, Bruce Cameron 
Kemble, Bruce Cameron 
Kuykendall 



Unreasonable 



enator Metzenbaum _V / 
snator Kerry ^ jy^U^ 



Reasonable 
Jake Pickle 
Cong. Coleman 

When these are each contacted and the Coopers t Lybrand 
audit is made public, the issue will be greatly defused 
on Capitol Hill. 



615 



TRACK III - POLITICAL TRACK 
JANUARY S-20 

The White House. St«te Department and NSC "ust be 
reassured that there is no validity to these charges. 
All your consultants will be contacting past and 
present officials to share the Coopers t Lybrand audit 
with thew and to create an understanding of the differ- 
ent organizations and media used in your programs. In 
this way, we can start some independent sources feeding 
the journalists at the same time we establish a reser- 
voir of sympathy among Reagan supporters for the 
terrible way NEPL was libelled. There will be no list 
and each consultant will be responsible for his own 
contacts. 



We will reconvene a full strategy group next week to beg i 
preparation of documents and videotapes for the media. V 
counsel that until that time you refuse all interviews. 



616 



2r3g dB^,„m^ ^^^^ I 7/ 



JJODOO 
f lOjOOO 



ft •I'l'^.TlAl 



617 




t 



American Conservative Trust 
Victory in 86 



Jarntary 13, 1967 



Mr. Robert Goodmin 

c/o Ms. M»lva H. Croghan 

The Robert Goodman figency. Inc. 

2201 Old Court Road 

Baltimore, HD 21308 



Dear Mr. Goodman: 



Mr. Channel 1 has asked Me to prepare a summary of my findings 
from the audit I performed regarding our account with the Robert 
Goodman Agency. 

Upon review of the 196S invoices I found several instances where 
the American Conservative Trust <ACT FED) was billed instead of 
the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty (NEPL) or 
the ftmerican Conservative Trust State Election Fund (PCT SEF). 

Listed below are the significarit invoices that should have been 
billed to NEPL in 1965: 

Project Name Description Inv • 



Freedom Can't Uork Production 

Korean Airliner Production 

Morning of Peace Production 

Morning of Peace Media Buy 

Morning of Peace Media Buy 

Morning of Peace Distribution 

Morning of Peace Distribution 

Morning of Peace Story boards 

Morning of Peace Media Buy 

Morning of Peace Media Buy 

Nicaragua Update Distribution 

Morning of Peace Media Buy 

Miscellaneous Distribution 

Miscellaneous Distribution 

N/A Limo service 

FCU;KA;PO Audio Cassettes 

FCUiKA;PD Storyboards 



4 04 


10,000.00 


4104 


10,000.00 


4223 


15,000.00 


4233 


5, 460. 00 


4239 


4, 935. 00 


4243 


1, 115.46 


4249 


197.64 


4254 


570. 26 


4219 


49, 950. 00 


4232 


8, 050. 00 


4243 


840. 14 


4246 


5, 200. 00 


4244 


440. 63 


4259 


270. 75 


4150 


287. 50 


4132 


66.92 


4126 


649.23 



1331 Pcnnsvlvania Avenue, N.W.. Suite 375 South • Washington DC 20004 (202) 662->:' 



618 



Listed brlOM crv the Kignificant invoices that should h«ve been 
billed to PCT SEF rjther than NEPL in 1985: 

Miscellaneous Li>no Service *137 391.00 



Pmounts Invoiced: 1985 
Proposed Adjustment 



Omounts Paid: 1985 



Amount OMed/ (Refund due) 
for Y/E 1985 



Listed below are the significant invoices that should have been 
billed to NEPL in 1986: 



Morning of Peace Media buy 4232 1.800.00 

Morning of Peace Distribution 4310 70.61 



OCT FED 

226, 548. 86 
(236,548.86) 


ACT SEF 

0.00 

113,315.25 

391.00 


NEPL 

81,328.35 
113,233.61 
(391.00) 


SENTINEL 

O.C 
O.C 


0.00 
0.00 


113.706.25 
(114,085.00) 


194, 170.96 
(193.792.21) 


O.C 
O.C 


0.00 


(378.75) 


378. 75 


O.C 



1,870.61 



Listed below are the significant invoices that should have been 
billed to ACT SEF in 1986: 

Back Down/Elec Day Distribution 5057 



Amounts Invoiced: 1986 
Proposed Adjust Bent 
Proposed Adjustment 



ACT FED 


ACT SEF 


NEPL 


40. 723.44 


0.00 


830. 094. 99 


(1.870.61) 


0.00 


1.870.61 


(805.00) 


805.00 


0.00 



38,047.83 805.00 831,965.60 

Amounts Paid: 1986 (28.050.35) (805.00) (838,153.70) 

Amount owed/ (Refund due) 9.997.48 0.00 (6,168.10) 

for Y/E 1986 ===.=.===:.== e=3=s>=» .■»xx>s== 



619 



ftCT SEF 



N»t invoice* 65 « 86 267,272.30 0.00 9U,*23.34 130, 018. 6£ 

Proposed fid juitment* <229, 22'>. *7) IJ«,511.25 114,713.22 0. 0: 



Adjusted Pi 1 lings 36,047.63 114,511.25 1,026,136.56 130.016. 6i 



Pymts 65/66 per RGO (144,740.35) 0.00 (1,095,796.24) (130.016.6; 

Adjustments: 

Seperate ftCT fi/C 114.690.00 (114,690.00) 

Pytnt 3/12/86 •1770 NEPL 1.800.00 (1,600.00) 

Refund #4539 16, 115.72 

Refund #4659 37.556.61 

Refund #4744 Onha 12,000.00 

Rebate WTTG TV (7,055.00) 



adjusted paynents (26,050.35) (114,690.00) (1,036.360.91) (130. 016.6. 

Balance due/ (Refund due) 9,997.48 (378.75) (12,844.35) 0.0 



620 



RKIIT eOODHAM ASOCY 
l«S PKUECT INVOItZS 



DATE 

04/23/85 
(M/23/tS 
(M/23/B5 
(H/23/45 
W/23/85 
W/23/85 
M/23/85 
M/23/8S 
04/23/B 
0«/23/«5 
(M/23/85 
04/23/85 
04/23/85 
04/23/85 
04/23/85 



04/17/85 
04/17/85 
04/18/85 
05/31/85 
08/14/85 



4104 
4105 
4105 
4105 
4105 
4105 
4105 
4105 
4106 
4105 
4106 
4106 
4106 
4105 
4105 



Hie 
WIRE 
HIRE 
1081 
1188 



PDOJECT mc 

nCHOTMR'TTW" 
KOREAN AIILIICR 
CMISSim REBATE 
IGIIA nnr 4/18-4/23 
lOIA mv 4/18-4/23 
lOIA UV 4/18-4/23 
ICSIA UV 4/18-4/23 
ICSIA aUY 4/18-4/23 
KIIA Kl 4/18-4/23 
lOIA tJI 4/18-4/23 
KSIA UV 4/18-4/23 
lOIA BA 4/18-4/23 
ICSIA UV 4/18-4/23 
ICSIA VI 4/18-4/23 
ICSIA Ur 4/18-4/23 
IDIA UV 4/18-4/23 



ngn » CAN'T uoK 

FREEnH CAN'T tOK 
FREOO CAN'T I0K 
nCDXK CAN'T I0K 
FRESOI CAN'T lOK 



KSCRIPTim 


mun 


MBBOmDB 


"""reisanB" 


MDDUCTKM 




10,000.00 


PRODUCTICM 




(3,nf.7SI 


WLA TV 


HASH X 


25,150.00 


OIL TV 


NIANI a 


S.87S.00 


UAC TV 


KALMMT TI 


150.00 


IffSN TV 


KAMNT TI 


1,«0.00 


XBHT TV 


BEAUOn n 


490.00 


MC TV 


KANSAS CITYK) 


5,000.00 


WW TV 


TOSAIK 


5,000.00 


KSai TV 


ALBUBUEROUE W 


1,560.00 


WTAF TV 


PNILA PA 


15,000.00 


lee TV 


CLEVEIAW W 


3,090.00 


ICCB TV 


CMAR.OTTE IC 


5,015.00 


#AA TV 


DALLAS TI 


9,075.00 


KTIX TV 


«TERBU»Y a 


4,500.00 
104,345.25 


PAVKNT/ICn. 


(20,000.00) 


MYtOn/AD SEF 


(35,000.001 


PAYICNT/AO SF 


(40,000.001 


MYlorr/icPi 


(5,000.00) 


PAVKKT/tEPl 


(4,345.25) 



ACT 

"IBTMOrdB"' 
10,000.00 
(3,119.73) 
25,n).M 
5,873.00 
950.00 
1,960.00 
490.00 
5,000.00 
5,000.00 
3,360.00 
15,000.00 
5,090.00 
5,015.00 
9,073.00 
4,300.00 



-UfUC IIWOICES- 
ICPL 



104,343.25 



(35,000.00) 
(40,000.00) 



(20,000.»l 



(3,000.00) 
(4,345.25) 



(104,345.25) (73,000.00) (29,345.23) 



29,345.25 (29,345.25) 



05/28/85 
06/10/83 
06/10/85 
06/10/85 
06/11/85 



04/17/85 
05/23/85 
06/11/85 
08/14/85 



4119 
4127 
4127 
4127 
4131 



PARTY'S IWR 
ICSIA 8UY 5/28-6/4 
ICSIA aUV 5/28-6/4 
ICSIA BUY 5/28-6/4 
ICSIA aUY 6/10 



1345 PttfTY'SOWI 

1352 PARTY'S (^ER 

"" PASTY'S 0^€R 

1188 PARTY'S OVER 



PROSurrioi 

KTK TV 
ICZL TV 
UJLA TV 
WLA TV 



AIETIN n 
NIANI a 
WOi K 



PAYICNT/AD SEF 
PAVMEKT/An SEF 
PAYKNT/C RECODD 
PAYIOa/ICPL 



6,000.00 


6,000.00 


2.170.00 


2.170.00 


1,500.00 


1,300.00 


17,600.00 


17, 600. M 


1,700.00 


1,700.00 



28,970.00 

(6,000.00) 

(21,000.00) 

(1,700.00) 

(270.00) 

(28,970.00) 

0.00 



28,970.00 


0.00 


(6,000.00) 
(21,000.00) 
(1,700.00) 


im.X) 


(28,700.00) 


(270.00) 


270.00 


1370.001 



06/10/85 


4128 


Fa;KA;PO 


PADtUaiW: STORYBOAADS 


849.23 


849.23 




06/11/85 


4132 


FCU;NA;PO 


PRODUCTKM: IU)IO CASSETTES 


66.92 


66.92 




06/25/85 


4137 


N/A 


LINO SERVICE 


391.00 




r?i.oo 


07/01/85 


4143 


NO (Ua TO HIK 


VW/CASSETTES 


123.00 




l.'!.OC 


07/15/85 


4150 


N/A 


LIKI ERVICE 


287.30 


287.30 




11/14/85 


4244 


MISCEIii)fCai£ 


PAOOUaiW: DISTRIRTTIOI 


440.69 


440.69 




11/26/85 


4259 


RISCEUACDUS 


PWOUCTIW: OISTRimTim 


270.75 


270.75 





03/23/85 


1332 


RISCELLAKDUS 


PAYIOn/AD SEF 


08/14/85 


1188 


NISCEUJtCOUB 


PAYICNT/ICPl 


12/05/85 


1326 


NISCELLAICauS 


PAYKNT/ICPL 



2,431.09 

(385.00) 

(1,334.63) 

(711.44) 

(2,431.09) 



1,915.09 

(385.001 



(385.00. ':'..-t,.09i 
1,530.09 ;.'.JC.09. 



621 




2201 OLO COURT HOAO IlLnMOOC MAKTLANO 2I2M (JOII 2M-U30 



January 15, 1987 



Mr. Spitz Channel 
American Conservative Trust 
1331 Pennsylvania Ave., NW 
Suite 350 - South 
Washington, DC 20004 

Dear Spitz: 

Enclosed is the documentation you requested regarding 
payments received from American Conservative Trust accounts. 
As you can see from the breakdown, some payments were 
identified as cooing from the state account, some from the 
federal account and also some simply identified in our 
records as coming from A.C.T. or American Conservative Trust, 



Sincerely, 



Colleen W. Vickers 
TreasuTci 



Enclosures 



^ 006079- 



$ 21.385 


00 


wired 


6.000 


00 


Wired 


1 ,700 


00 


Wired 



622 



(fie rohert goodman agency, inc. 

1985 Income Received 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 

5/23/85 
5/31/85 
6/11/85 

$ 29.085.00 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST (State Election Fund) 

4/17/85 $ 35.000.00 Wired 
4/18/85 40,000.00 Wired 
10/30/85 10.000.00 Ch. #1490 

$ 85.000.00 

1986 Income Received 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST 

6/26/86 $ 50.35 Ch. #1204 
10/28/86 14.000.00 Wired 

$ 14,050.35 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST (St«te Election Fund) 

11/10/86 $ 805.00 Ch. #1643 

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE TRUST (Federal) 

11/6/86 $ 6,000.00 Wired 
11/7/86 8.000.00 Wired 

$ 14,000.00 



oo-:c~'5'~ 



2201 OLD COUITT 10*0 MUlMOeC. MARTUtNO 2120* HOI) 2W-Sa)0 



I 



623 



MEMO TO: Mr. Carl Russell Channell 
President 

National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty 
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 
Suite 350 South 
Washington, D.C. 20005 



FROM: 
DATE: 



Richard R. Miller 
February 2, 1987 



SUBJECT: Professional Fees 



PROFESSIONAL FEES: 



■niMinWUl lUSHESS COMMUNIUIKMS 

wwiwciw oc noma 






Professional services 

Central American Freedom Progran II Research 



$iO,000.00 
J12.000.00 



GRAND TOTAL: 



$ 52.000.00 



FROM : 
DATE: 



624 



ME'^O TO: Mr. Carl Russell Channell 
President 

National Endowinent for the 
Preservation of Liberty 
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 
Suite 350 South 
Washington, D.C. 20005 



Richard R. Miller 
February 2, 1987 



SUBJECT: Professional Fees 



PROFESSIONAL FEES: 



BIBMinawi MSBUS aWMUIW! 



Professional services 

Central American Freedom Progran II Research 



$40,000.00 
112,000.00 y 



GRAND TOTAL: 



$ 52.000.00 



'^' 7^ -^^ 



- /iCf 



625 






/O 






/^ A£hAA<Ji^^ -^f^^^'^ 




(^(jU^,^ fxflAM^^ 







626 



UNO TALKING POINTS 



C H 



02902^ 



/ 



Adolpho Cslero - President of the FDN and aeaber of UNO 
^ho Bakes up the FDH fighters 

Who are the people swelling FDN ranks today 
'Constant need for supply and training 

The ailltary push toward a crisia for the Sandinistas 

- Boaco 

- Estali 

coaaon FDN battlefield aaying 



/ 



Arturo Cruz - foraer Nlc. Aabassador and Presidential candidate, 
aeaber of UNO 

The Sandinistas' present political crisis. 

The c4iaata of prfTsis/pre sent ^ in the Nicaraguan political cofflmunity 

The future holds a deaocractic Nicaragua 



J"^ 



Alfonso Robelo - Foraer aember of the Sandlnista ruling Junta, aeober of 
UNO 

The econoalc crisis in Nicaragua 

The support of the people 

The Southern front and the ault ipllcation of supporting groups. 



Thoaas Borge quote, "Nicarqagua is the door we will kick open to liber 
:he United States." 



6 



627 



C H 02902' 

GREEN BRIEFING: i_^^J?3/^l 

Introduction - Begin with the day .cdngress voted down the President's 
aid package to the freedoa fighter*. Up to that point the coaBunists 
had done the following: 

1. Airplanes 

2. Airports 

3. trainers 

4. aachines 

5. heavy equipment 

i. Ortega goes to Moscow 

^, Moscow proaises aaterisl support 
Jb. Moscow proaises advisors - 
^ Moscow proaises weapons systems 
■^ Freedoa Fighters in the saoe period. 

A. Miraculous that they survived at all. 

4y Lack of supplies '' 

S^ No airlifts, resupply by horseback and backpack 
[k.) restricted interior action 

(Ji) wasted supplies to reach the resupply points 
ffi) DO chance for interior use of heavy weapons 
fit) no pre-staging gatherings because of tlae factor 



A 



L>^ 



DO hospital or aedivac capacity to support interior i^-' 
action 

Hap with overlay showing the peDetratioD of freedoa 
flghtera CU^ cf Cifi<Jt. /tSi' 

SaDdanlsta ailitary build-up since Ju i i r - i Strir: - ^ \ 

1. RlDd helecoptera 

2. CubaDS in the field 

3. Free fire zones 

k. Military airfields buildup 



628 



5. soTlet deepwatcr port 

6. pacific coast base iaprovBents 

7. forced recrultaent 

8. Bsterial and heavy weapons systems delivered 
"^K^ The situation today 

1. Supply is up to speed, warehouses are well supplied 

2. Heavy lifting airdrops have begun and have successfully 
resupplled forward units without then running the risk 
of border crossing 

3. Light plane forward depl'o'yBent of supplies to reinforce 
southern front and central concentrations 

U. Medivac and field first aid supply 

5. The impact of Freedom Fighters on a governnent in an 
economic and political crisis 

6. Strategic Implications or newly supplied forces 

a) Cutting the Rama Kosd 

b) Boaco battle 

c) Bridge destruction - - 

7. Map overlays of present penetrations and major battles. 
^ The future - th f tw n allll n n do ll a r » -m o nt h w ar i " 



629 



International Business Communications 

1912 sunderland place. n.w 

washington, dc 20036-1608 

telephone (202) 387-3002 telex3718712 ibcusa 



Dan: 

As per Spitz's request, 1 am attaching a list of open seats 
In the House of Representatives. The NKCC has listed all GOP 
Members as priority tarkets and the following Deraocrats as 
probable pickups Al 7, CO 2, lA 6, LA 7 LA 3. MD 8, NC 3, OK 1, 
OR It, PA 7, SD at large. They have also targeted the following 
sitting Democrats for defeat Stallings ID 2, McCloskey IN S, 
Carr MI 6, Young MO 2, NealNC 5, Felghan OH 19, Aucoln OR 1, 
Kostmayer PA 8, Kanjorskl PA 11, Bryant TX 5, Pickle TX 10, 
Lloyd IN 3. 

I hope this is what your looking for. 

STE^'E 



630 



CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM 



A Joint Project of 
The National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 

and 

Sentinel 

305 4th Street NE 

Washington, DC 20002 

(202) 547-1986 , ,„,— ^- 



631 



CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM 



Introduction 

1986 Is destined to be a landmark year In the 
advancement of freedom throughout the world. After a 
generation of Increasing tyranny and authoritarianism, the 
winds of change are rising. These winds are carrying 
freedom movements on four continents toward a victory over 
communist domination. 

And Ronald Reagan, leading a rejuvenated America, has 
caught these winds of change. He Is dramatically aligning 
American policy, resources, and moral support with the 
force of that gathering storm. 

President Reagan's policy, when fully developed, is 
destined to trigger the overthrow of communist tyranny. 
This will happen around the world. In Afghanistan, Angola, 
Mozambique, Kampuchea and, most Important, Nicaragua. 

America's relationship with coaununlst Nicaragua 
experienced an absolute moral and political reversal when 
Ronald Reagan became President of the United States. 

The Carter Administration, like millions of 
Nlcaraguans , had been fooled by the communists who 
captured the leadership of the anti-Somoza revolution in 
1979. Once In power, the communist Junta began 
systematically lying to the world about the true policies 
and purposes of their revolutionary government. 

But Ronald Reagan was not fooled. So, moved by new 
leadership, American policy toward Nicaragua's communist 
government changed sharply in 1981. Then the U.S. 
declared support for the Nlcaraguan Freedom Fighters. 

Since 1981, opposition to the communist-controlled 
Nlcaraguan regime has gradually become a very powerful 
internal democratic movement. It claims the support of 
over 25,000 well armed Nlcaraguans and literally hundreds 
of thousands of ordinary Nlcaraguans. Nearly 400.000 (one 
out of every six Nlcaraguans) lives under Freedom Fighter 
protection . 

The democratic forces have endured years of conflict 
with a communist army easily six times their number. More 
remarkably, they have steadily increased their ranks in 
the midst of the struggle. These democratic forces 



632 



continued to gain strength even during the year ar.d a hslf 
that United States aid was suspended. 

1986 finds the democratic forces stronger than ever. 
But so is their communist enemy. Ronald Reagan has 
offered decisive assistance to the democratic forces. 
And. if this assistance is fully endorsed by the Congress, 
it could, in fact, carry them to victory over corimunism m 
Nicaragua this year. 

When victory occurs, it will have historic and 
political significance throughout the Western Hemisphere. 
Its im.pact will be felt by every Freedom Fighter in the 
world. Its possibility will haunt every communist 
dictator . 

Finally, Ronald Reagan's actions will herald a new 
dynamic American policy. It is a policy of materially 
supporting freedom movements struggling to overthrow 
com-munist regimes. Freedom is on the offensive. 



Description of the Problem 

If Ronald Reagan is to succeed in meeting the needs 
of Freedom Fighter movements for years to come, it will be 
necessary to create a deep reservoir of public support for 
Freedom Fighters and the President's policy. 

Such public support will come only if the Amerlca.n 
people truly understand the stakes and the opportunities 
the Reagan policies embody. 

The memories of Vletnain, however inapplicable, re.T.ain 
fresh, as does the urge to have America fight for clearly 
recognizable just causes. So President Reagan, if he is 
to be successful, must carry into this foreign policy 
arena the unified support of the American people. 

In spite of the headlines and the debates during the 
last five years, the American public remains woefully 
ignorant about Nicaragua. They don't understand the clear 
threat it poses to vital American security interests. 

A 1985 public opinion poll showed more than one-third 
of those surveyed did not know which side the United 
States supports. Twenty percent thought we support the 
(communist) government' 

A later poll found that among those aware of U.S. 
policy, 58* said we should not be giving aid to the 
Democratic Opposition. 

It is tragic, but not surprising that so many people 
are ill-informed, and that so many oppose our policies. 
It's not surprising because the American public is the 
victim of an intense, sophisticated multi-million dollar 
disinformation campaign. It Is being conducted by 



633 



opponents of the President. 

The Sandinistas abuse the freedoms in the U.S. that 
they deny to their own people. They do this by hiring a 
Washington law firm and two public relations firms unde.- 
contract to spread disinformation. 

- They are aided by the Soviet Union and Cuba. The 
Soviets and Cubans already spend tens of millions of 
dollars to shape public policy In America. Their actions 
are supported by a vast network of communist and leftist 
activist sympathizers. Soviet spokesmen regularly seek tv 
time. Phil Donahue gave Nicaraguan dictator Ortega an 
hour in October. 

These people operate at the grass-roots level and in 
Washington. They use the media and all the tools at their 
disposal to undermine the policies of our elected 
government . 

This is why President Reagan needs the support and 
cooperation of clear-thinking, patriotic Americans. We 
must counter the disinformation program of the 
Sandinistas. We must educate the public on the policies, 
the players, the dangers and the realities. 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty is helping the President do Just that. 



Solution 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty has undertaken a nationwide program of indefinite 
duration known as the CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM. 

The overriding goal of this program is to educate the 
American people. It will show the realities of communism 
in Nicaragua. It will show the threat to U.S. national 
secur i ty . 

We have chosen television as the major vehicle. We 
believe it is the most successful to carry our educational 
and informative messages to the public. 

The CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM will require the 
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty to 
spend $2,000,000 in the next 90 days. 

This is over $160,000 every week for public education 
and information on the issue of Nicaragua. A longer, $3 
million program is under consideration and will be 
implemented if required to fully educate the American 
public . 

When our program achieves its public awareness goals, 
it will become a useful model for similar activities by 
other in the future. Our program is truly unique. It has 



634 



become the pioneering effort in this area, 



Central American Freedom Program 

• The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty is focusing its education program on seven issues. 
They are: 

1) Nicaraguan communist persecution of 
Its citizens; 

2) Denial of religious and political 
rights ; 

3) The creation of an aggressive armed 
Soviet satellite on the North American 
continent ; 

4) The creation of Cuban bases inside 
Nicaragua; 

5) The threat Nicaragua now poses to its 
neighbors both through state terrorism 
and outright aggression; 

6) Support for revolution In El Salvador; 

7) Betrayal of the true anti-Somoza democratic 
revolution by the Nicaraguan communists. 

The Issues listed above represent the principal 
points our programs will make In the minds of Americans. 
We are also emphasizing other Issues such as the origin. 
nature, organization and objectives of the Freedom 
Fighters . . 

We are developing the Images of the UNO leadership. 
We are graphically showing the situation facing over 
400,000 Nicaraguan refugees. And we are presenting the 
political and human rights goals of the Freedom Fighters 
themselves. 



635 



Public Affairs Components 



Central American Freedom Program 

The Sandinistas have two public relations firms and 
two law firms either registered as foreign agents or 
working sub rosa In the United States. 

They have a combined budget of $2 million. They are 
using this war chest to concentrate on the districts of 
Congressmen who have opposed aid to the Freedom Fighters. 

They have also stepped up the use of Op-Eds and 
articles In national newspapers written by sympathetic 
Americans. They have planted disinformation, too, like 
the recent articles accusing the FDN of drug trafficking. 

An Ignorant and misinformed public is one of the 
principal objectives of the communists. They recognize 
that Ignorance and apathy In local communities across 
America leaves the doors wide open to the opponents of 
Administration policy. 

And given the activism of those opponents, they are 
the ones who are often visible to members of Congress. A 
legislator who only hears from the critics can ignore 
logic and danger. He can vote to deny U.S. assistance to 
those on the front lines in the battle against communism 
in our hemisphere. So, the public must be better 
informed . 

The public Is quite unaware of the true nature of the 
Sandinistas as well as the existence of a viable 
democratic alternative. They do not support efforts to 
overthrow any government and fear U.S. involvement in 
another Vietnam. 

This Ignorance and the Isolation it produces have 
been the Sandlnlsta's principal advantages in the debate. 
We Intend to evaporate those advantages through the use of 
truth. 



Ob.1 ectlves 

As Congressional debate heats up on this Issue, we 
should expect the Sandinistas, their foreign agents and 
liberal sympathizers to give it all they have. 

We are In the last weeks of a national campaign to be 

decided by the American public. If the public remains 

apathetic, the President's democratic initiative will be 
defeated. 



636 



If we are successful, America will have a policy that 
sounds the death knell of America's post-Vietnam feeling 
of impotency. It will end America's retreat from her 
responsibilities as the leader of the free world. 

Tc accomplish this, the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty is addressing four audiences usir.g 
specifically targeted communications strategies: 

The public - Through the use of strong 
negative images of the Sandinistas recently reported in 
the media. 

Pol icymakers - Democratic leadership 
Issues provide the groundwork for more challenging 
arguments that can influence liberals and moderates. 

Congress - Through Issues now associated with 
America's leadership role In supporting democracy in the 
region against the developing communist threat. NEPL, as 
an educational organization, is not permitted to engage in 
lobbying activities. Our co-sponsor. Sentinel, is 
permitted to engage in lobbying activities and will 
undertake the responsibility of bringing this Important 
issue to the attention of members of Congress. 

Freedom Fighter Leadership - Without a sound 
belief in the capabilities of the resistance's 
leadership, no policy can succeed in Congress. 



Program Elements 

Tine is short and we are fighting for public support 
over a wide geographic area. So, we are treating this 
like a national educational campaign, with March 15 as our 
target . 

We are using the methodology of national political 
campaigns. We are seeking to emphasize the disturbing 
truth about the communist control over Nicaragua. We are 
debating the unclaimed issues to our advantage. And we 
are reinforcing cur positive public perceptions to educate 
and Inform. 

We are using advertising and public affairs progra.iis 
for each of the four program objectives listed above. 
They are being handled as follows: 

The Public - The public has been exposed 
recently to several negative Images of the Sandinistas. 
We use these images to reinforce the public perception 
that the Sandinistas are communists and tyrannical 
dictators. We employ the following techniques: 

Television advertising - We have 
analyzed Congressional action on the last aid package. 



637 



Based on this research, we are producing materials for 
television spots which focus on: 

1) Daniel Ortega's trip to Moscow and the 
$220 million commitment he received from 
the Soviets for offensive military weaponry. 

2) The recent crackdown on human rights 
directed against the entire Nicaraguan 
population . 

3) Ortega's purchase of $3,500 in designer 
eyeglasses while his people starve. 

4) The communists militarization of Nicaragua 
through Soviet, Libyan, East German, Cuba.n 
and other advisors, and the use of Nicaragua 
as a command center for subversion of her 
democratic neighbors. 

5) That Cubans are now proved to be actively 
involved In combat. 

6) That Nicaragua has become a lair and a 
refuge . 

7) The humiliation of Pope John II when he was 
spat upon and heckled when he tried to 
conduct Mass in Managua. 

Spokesman program - using the prototype 

program already underway, we are placing speakers in 50 

markets between now and March 15, 1986. 

These speakers are booked into a civic club or 
professional organization in a market. Then they are 
scheduled for television, radio and newspaper interviews. 

The speakers come from the ranks of the United Nicaraguan 
Opposition (UNO) leadership. They can defend all UNO 
participants. 

They focus on Sandlnlsta excesses and UNO as the 
democratic alternative. The principal concentration for 
these speaJcers are the southern and western states. 

Battlefield Videotape - Sandlnlsta state security agents 
rigidly control the movements of foreign correspondents. 
especially television Journalists In or visiting 
Nicaragua. That control Is exercised through: 

1) Escort "guides" and Interpreters; 

2) Denial of access to selected parts of the 
country ; 

3) Imposition of "taboo" themes; 

4) Screening and censorship of footage for export; 



638 



5) Monitoring of telephones and telex; 

6) Expulsion or denial of entry to any offenders. 

At the Same time, coverage from the northern border 
is extremely arduous and far from the areas where tr.e 
Resistance is operating. 

The result is timid, selective, highly censored and 
heavily biased television coverage. Battle zones are 
only presented from the Sandlnista perspective. 

We are providing major media outlets and local 
television stations with videotape from the field. 
It shows scenes never seen before in the U.S. 

It includes combat footage and evidence of Sandinista 
atrocities. We are also providing footage and 
commentary on events inside Managua and other major 
population centers. 

This footage will be used in three ways: 

1) An experienced advertising agency is producing 
advertising for distribution in as many as 50 
selected markets across the United States. 

2) A satellite feed will be edited and fed each 
time new footage is obtained. These feeds will 
reach approximately 200 television stations ir. 
the U.S. Usage reports will be received daily. 

3) A new documentary on the face of communism in 
Nicaragua and the use of internal repression 
will be produced. This theme will be countered 
with a segment showing the Freedom Fighters as 
the logical outgrowth of Sandlnista tyranny. 

Pol icymakers 

Given the compressed time frame, policymakers can be 
best reached through an effort that is visible In 
Washington and the national media. The Issues used to 
reach Congress should be centered on America's leadership 
responsibilities In this hemisphere. 

The primary effort Is focused in specially selected 
areas of the country, but we are reinforcing this effort 
with a public affairs and education program Including: 

A. Articles and Op-Eds written by prominent American 
leaders on Nicaragua as a center of terrorism. We will 
use recent revelations of Nlcaraguan arms being used in 
the Colombian Supreme Court assaults. 

We will cite evidence of Libyan, PLO and Iranian 
terrorists working In Nicaragua. From these 
facts, we will produce articles for paid 
distribution, single placement in national 
newspapers and general media distribution. 



639 



Religious persecution of all faiths can be used 
to touch and educate the public, producing a 
positive effect on the policymakers. 

Jewish. Catholic and Protestant organization 
publications are being approached to interview- 
defectors and religious figures who know the 
persecution firsthand. 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty Is arranging a series of meetings with 
religious leaders and Journalists. We Sni also 
help to produce an article by a prominent 
American religious figure for paid distribution. 

^' nn^^^^^'^K?^ °'' ^^^ "°'"^^ American Continent is 
unacceptable to almost all Americans. If the 
issue is picked up by constituents it would be a 
strong message for policymakers. 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty Is utilizing these arguments in the 
^vft^^r P'"°«5;^ already underway. An American 
exiled Cuban has been commissioned to write an 
article for paid distribution throughout the 

A Cuban exile leader has been added to the 
spokesman program. 

D. Drugs and politics are a bad mix. Nicaragua's 
support for and role in narcotics trafficking ar- 
issues with which no one can publicly disagree. 

We will ask Don Johnson of MIAMI VICE, or a 
strong anti-drug figure such as Rosie Greer, to 
give a briefing on the drug trafficking evidence 
the Administration has on the Sandinistas. 

He will be asked to write an Op-Ed piece for 
national distribution through paid and direct 
placements . 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of 

Liberty would seek to get this super-spokesman on 

major television shows such as TODAY and GOOD 
MORNING AMERICA. 

We would also produce a news spot for satellite 
distribution. 

E. The Sandinistas are violating human rights 

at an unprecedented level in this hemisphere. 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty is providing radio, television and 
newspaper interviews with two researchers who 
have compiled a report on Sandinista human rights 



640 



violations . 

They are being commissioned to do an update on 
their report with a trip to Honduras and Costa 
Rica. On their return they will hold a 
Washington news conference and issue a report to 
Congress through a respected Senator or 
Congressman. 

F. The Revolution of 1979 has been betrayed by the 
Sandinistas. The National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty will produce a news spot 
for satellite distribution on the lives of three 
former Sandinistas who now fight with the 
FDN/UNO. 

Congress 

We expect to reach Congress primarily through the 
media we will be using for the policymakers. However, 
special briefings will also be used to educate specific 
target audiences within this group. 

These briefings will be arranged by our co-sponsor. 
Sentinel. Briefings may feature drug enforcement experts 
or political scientists who have studied Cuban 
expansionism . 

Freedom Fighter Leadership 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty has begun to provide spokesmen training for the 
leadership and provide information feedback to reinforce 
that training. We will provide UNO leaders with public 
opinion analyses. 

When possible, we are incorporating the UNO 
leadership in events and briefings that further their 
image of unity. 

Conclusion 

Without an opportunity to see the truth about the 
Sandinistas, the American public will defeat democracy in 
Nicaragua. 

Through Its public education program, the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty will give the 
President a chance to free this continent of communism. 
We will strike a decisive blow for democracy. 



641 



CENTRAL AMERICAN FREEDOM PROGRAM BUDGET 



1. Television field projects 
Personnel 

- field producer 

- camera man 

- sound man 

- correspondent 

Equipment 

- six cameras 

- sound package 

- editing machine 

- character generators 

Transportation 

- airfares 

- ground transportation 

- local travel 

Travel expenses 

- In-country expenses 

- U.S. travel for editing 

Studio time 

- in-country studio for editing 

- U.S. production facilities 

Tapes supplies 

- tape stock 

- battery packs 

- lights and reflectors 

($60,000 per month for 5 months) $ 300,000 



Marketing of field TV programs 
(5 projects at $24,000 per) 



120,000 



642 



3. Speaking tour program 

Tour to Include: 

- speaking engagements 

- editorial board meetings 

- television interviews 

- radio interviews 

- newspaper interviews 

- briefings for church, business, 
labor, political, and college 
organization leaders 

Costs for tours 

(January to March 15, 1986) 

Travel 

(7 weeks. 2 speakers, 
each week $8,700) $121,800 

Per diem for speakers 

($220 per day, 5 days per 
trip, 7 weeks for 2 
speakers per week) 15,400 

Expenses 

(ground transportation, phones, 
tips, $800 per trip, for 14 
one week schedules) 1 1 , 200 

SUBTOTAL 148,400 

4. Supplementary services. Including: 

- postage 

- telephones 

- telex 

- couriers 

- translations 

($4,700 per month for 5 months) 27,750 

5. Administration/Coordination, Including: 

Professional staff: 

- 2 senior partners 

- 1 local coordinator 

- 1 Program Coordinator 

- 1 Senior Writer 

- 2 Account Executives 

- 1 Media Coordinator 

Verification of Placement 

- clipping retrieval 

- polling data assembling 

- monitoring network feedback 

($53,500 for 2 months, January 
to March 15) 107.000 



12 



643 



Advertising and paid media 

Television advertising: 

Production of 4 TV messages $ 80.000 
D.C. media buys 225,000 

Nationwide market buys 150 .000 

SUBTOTAL 1 .055.000 

National Media Placement 

- Network and syndicated TV and Radio 

- National newspapers 

- National periodicals 



Polling and research 

- national 

- local 



158,850 



83.000 



GRAND TOTAL $2,000,000 



13 



644 



1. Whltt Houst •traccgltcs targeted S3 rcprctcntatlvcs whose voces could be 
swayed to tuppwt Ronald Reagan In the Nlcaraguan aid vote. The White 
House askad ua to aount a campaign in support of the President's policies. 
We were given Just five days to act. Our message appeared on prime time 
network stations In 12 districts. Eight of the representatives voted yes 
CO support the President. The ad was so significanc in chc dcbace chac ic 
was shown on CBS necwork news. 

2. Since January, 1985, ACT has begun a public educacion campaign in major 

newspapers across Che U.S. These Include the New York Times, the Washington 

Pose, Washingcon Times, Dallas Homing News and ochcrs. These messages have 

been in direct support of Ronald Reagan. Special positions taken have been 

and 
in support of the President's posicion in Nicaragua, /his strategic defense 

iniative (the President's space defense proposal). A sample message is 

enclosed. The purpose of this public education campaign is to forcefully 

present conservative positions Co che public in che leading liberal media. 

We are reaching ouc co che new majoricy che Presidenc is crying Co consolidate. 

3. ACT supporced serveral conservacive challenger candidaces in the 1984 election. 
Among chose we supported were Phil Crann, (R., TX), Beau Boulccr (R. , TX) and 
Bob Dornan (R., CA). ACT was the only national political action coimittee 
that conducted independent expenditure campaigns to increase the number of 
Republican govtrnorships. We won. Governor Arch Moore won in West Virginia 

by Jusc 3X of the vote. We spent $32,000 in this campaign. ACT'S support 
of Governor Arch Moore was considered crucial to his victory. 
U. At che requesc of Presidenc Ronald Reagan, ACT parcicipaced in a humanitarian 
efforc to aid the 100,000 homeless Nicaraguan refugees. ACT contributed over 
$130,000 CO this efforc in the last 60 days. 



A 00Tfc089 



645 



CENTRAL AHERICA SPEAKERS PROGRAM 
IMPACT ANALYSIS/FACTS S FIGURES 



States visited 12 

Cities visited 56 

Editorials visited 17 

Total of editorials in 

support of the aid 33 

Newspaper interviews 46 

Articles published 25 

Votes for aid 
(both Republican and 

Democrats) 32 



A CO" 5702 



646 



C.A. SPEAKERS PROGRAM/IMPACT ANALYSIS C FINAL REPORT 
-SUMMARY- 



The following suanarj shows the nuaber of cities visited. the 
number of editorials written in those cities and wheather or not 
thej favored aid to the Nlcaraguan Freedoa Fighters, and the 
nuBber of Republican and Deaocratlc votes coalng froa those areas 
in support or against the aid. 



CALIFORNIA 
Cities visited: 


TOTAL 
2 


YES 


NO 


NEUTRAL 


Editor ials : 
Votes: 


3 
6 




3 




FLORIDA 

Ci t ies visited: 


TOTAL 
10 


YES 


NO 


NEUTRAL 


Edi toria Is : 
Votes: 


13 
12 


3 

10 


8 
2 


2 



GEORGIA 

Cities v. sited: 


TOTAL 

5 


YES 


NO 


NEUTRAL 


Ed i tor 13 1 s : 
Votes: 


S 

7 


3 

5 


3 
2 


2 


KENTUCKY 
Cities V-. sited: 


TOTAL 
6 


YES 


NO 


NEUTRAL 


Ed i tor ials: 
Votes: 


7 
6 


2 


6 


1 


MISSOURI 
Cities vv sited: 


TOTAL 
3 


YES 


NO 


NEUTRAL 


Editorials: 
Votes: 


7 
5 


2 


5 

5 




MISSISSIPPI 
Cities visited: 


TOTAL 
2 


YES 


NO 


NEUTRAL 


Ed i t oria 1 s : 
Votes: 


3 
2 


I 


3 

I 





fc. 0075.70" 



647 



NORTH CAROLINA 
Cities V IS I ted ; 



TOTAL 
9 



YES NO NEUTRAL 



Editorials: 
Votes : 



10 
1 



NEW MEXICO 
Cities visited; 



TOTAL 
2 



YES NO NEUTRAL 



Editorials: 
Votes: 



2 1 
1 1 



OKLAHOMA 
Cities visited: 



TOTAL 
2 



YES NO 



NEUTRAL 



Editorials: 
Votes : 



SOUTH CAROLINA 
Cities visitei: 



TOTAL 
2 



YES 



NO NEUTRAL 



Editorials: 
Votes: 



TENNESSEE 
Cities visi ted : 



TOTAL 



YES 



Editorials: 


S 


2 


Votes: 


L 




TEXAS 


TOTAL 


YE 


Cities visited: 


9 




Editorials: 


\U 


5 


Votes: 


23 


11 



YES NO 



*» 0075704 



648 



C.A. SPEAKERS PROGRAM/IMPACT ANALYSIS S FINAL REPORT 



CALIFORNIA: 

CITY: SanJose 

VISITED: November 27 by Xavier Arguello 

EDITORIALS: The Mercury-News: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Edwards (d. 10) VOTED NO 

Mineta (d. 13) VOTED NO 



CITY: San Francisco 

VISITED: November 28-29 by Xavier Arguello 

EDITORIALS: The Chronicle: AGAINST 
The Examiner: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Burton (d. 5) VOTED NO 

Boxer (d. 6) VOTED NO 



« 0075705 



649 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS: 
C. DISTRICTS: 



FLORIDA: 

Jdcksonvi 1 le 

February 5 by Alvaro Montalvan 

March 10 by Carlos Icaza 



The Florida Times-Union: 
The Journal : 



IN SUPPORT 
IN SUPPORT 



Democrats: Bennett (d. 3) VOTED YES 
Chappell (d. 6) VOTED YES 



CITY: 

VISITED: 



EDITORIALS; 



Daytona Beach 

February 6 by Alvaro Montalvan 

March 11 by Carlos Icaza 

The Journal: AGAINST 
The News: AGAINST 

The News-Journal: AGAINST 



C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Chappell (d. 4) VOTED YES 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Ft . Lauderdale 

February 7 by Alvaro Montalvan 

March 12 by Carlos Icaza 



EDITORIALS: News-Sun-Sentinel: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Republicans: Shaw (d. 15) VOTED YES 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS; 



Orlando 

February 10 by Alvaro Montalvan 

March 13 by Carlos Icaza 

The Sentinel: AGAINST 



C. DISTRICTS: -Democrats: Nelson (d. 11) VOTED YES 
-Republicans: McCollum (d. ^) VOTKI) YES 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS: 
C. DISTRICTS; 



Lakeland 

February 11 by Alvaro Montalvan 

March 14 by Carlos Icaza 



The Ledger: IS SUPPORT 
Republicans: Ireland (d, 



10) VOTED YES 



ft 007570t 



CITY: 

visrrtD: 



650 



Tampa 

February 12 by Alvaro Mont^lvan 



EDITORIALS: Tar^pa Tribune: NEUTRAL 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Gibbons (d. 7) VOTED YES 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS: 
C. DISTRICTS; 



Ocala 

February 13 by Alvaro Montalvan 



The Star-Banner: AGAINST 
Democrats: MacKay ( d . 6) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Ga i nesv i 1 le 

February 14 by Alvaro Montalvan 

March 17 by Carlos Icaza 



EDITORIALS: The Gainesville Sun: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: MacKay (d. 6) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Ta 1 1 abasee 

March IS bv Carlos Icaza 



EDITORIALS: The Tallabasee Democrat: AGAINST 
C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Fuqua (d. 2) VOTED YES 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Panama City 

March 19 by Carlos Icaza 



EDITORIALS: The News Herald: NEUTRAL 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Hutto (d. 1) VOTED YES 



ft 007 57C7 



651 



GEORGIA 

CITY: Atlanta 

VISITED: March 10 by Teofilo Archibold 

March 17 by Mario Calero 

March 19 by Mario Calero 

EDITORIALS: -The Constitution: AGAINST 
-The Journal : AGAINST 
-The Daily World: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTRICTS: -Republicans: Swindall (d. 6) VOTED YES 

Ginrich (d. 6) VOTED YES 
-Democrats: Fowler (d. 5) VOTED NO 



CITY: .'iarietta 

VISITED: March 11 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITORIALS: The Daily Journal: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTRICT: Democrats: Darden (d. 7) VOTED YES 

CITY: Macon 

VISITED: March 12 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITORIALS: The Telegraph Sews: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Rowlands (d. 8) VOTED YES 



CITY: Columbus 

VISITED: March IS by Teofilo Archibold 

CiUTORIALS: The Enquirer: COMPROMISE 
The Ledger: COMPROMISE 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Ray (d. 3) VOTED NO 



CITY: Savannah 

VISITED: M-iTch 19 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITOKIALS: The Moriiini; News: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTKICTS: Demorrars: Thomas (d. 1) VOTEU YES 



652 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS 



KENTUCKY 

Louisville 

February 26 by Xavier Arguello 

The Courier-Journal: AGAINST 
The Times: AGAINST 



C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Mazzoli (d. 3) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Frankfort 

February 25 by Xavier Arguello 



EDITORIALS: The State Journal: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Republicans: Hopkins (d. 6) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Lexington 

February 26 by Xavier Arguello 



EDITORIALS: The Herald-Leader: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Republicans: Hopkins (d. 6) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Bowling Green 

February 27 by Xavier Arguello 



EDITORIALS: The Daily News: NEUTRAL 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Natcher (d. 2) VOTED NO 



CITY : 
VISITED: 



Ouensbor o 

February 28 by Xavier Arguello 



EDITORIALS: The Messenger-Inquirer: IN SUPPORT 
C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Natcher (d. 2) VOTED NO 



cirv : 

VISITED: 



Pad uca h 

February 28 by Donald Lacayo 



EDITORIALS: The Paducah-Sun: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Hubbard (d. 1) VOTED NO 



A O07570<^ 



653 



MISSOURI 

CITY: St. Louis/St. Charles 

VISITED: January 13 by'Xavier ArgueUo 
January 14 by Xavier Arguello 
February 17 by Donald Lacayo 
March 18 by Mario Calero 

EDITORIALS: The Globe Denocrat: IN SUPPORT 
The Post Dispatch: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Clay (d. 1) VOTED NO 

Gephardt (d. 3) VOTED NO 
Young (d. 2) VOTED NO 



CITY: Columbia 

VISITED: January 15 by Xavier Arguello 
February 18 by Donald Lacayo 

EDITORIALS: The Missourian: AGAINST 

The Daily Tribune: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Volkmer (d. 9) VOTED NO 



CITY: Jefferson City 

VISITED: January 16 by Xavier Arguello 
February 19 by Donald Lacayo 

EDIT0R:ALS: The Capital News: AGAINST 
The Post-Tribune: AGAINST 
The News-Tribune: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Skclton (d. 4) VOTED YES 



f^ 00757J0 



654 



MISSISSIPPI 

CITY: Jackson 

VISITED: January 18 by Xavier Arguello 
February 20 by Donald Lacayo 



The Clarion-Ledger: AGAINST 
The Daily-News: AGAINST 



EDITORIALS; 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Dowdy (d. 6) VOTED YES 



CITY: 

VISITED: 



Tupelo 

February 21 by Donald Lacayo 



EDITORIALS: NE Mississippi Daily-Journal: AGAINST 
C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Whitten (d. 1) VOTED NO 



655 



C IT V : 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS: 

C. DISTRICTS; 



NORTH CAROLINA 

Uinston-Sa lem 

January 14 by Mario Calero 

February 27 by Teofilo Archibold 

February 28 by Teofilo Archibold 

The Uinston-Salem Journal: IN SUPPORT 

Democrats: Neal (d. 5) VOTED NO 



CITY: Kannapolis 

VISITED: January 15 by Mario Calero 

March 5 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITORIALS: The Daily-Independent: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: hefner (d. 8) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS: 



Durham 

January 16 by Mario Calero 

January 20 by Mario Calero 

Kebruary 25 by Teofilo Archibold 

The Moning-Herald : IN SUPPORT 
The Sun: IN SUPPORT 



C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Valentine (d. 2) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS: 



Raleigh 

January 17 by Mario Calero 

February 26 bv Teofilo Archibold 



The News-Observer; 
The Times: 



IN SUPPORT 
IN SUPPORT 



C. DISTRICTS: Republicans: Cobey (d. 4) VOTED YES 



CITY : 
VIblTED: 



Wilmington 

January 21 by 'lario Calero 

March 3 by Teofilo Archibold 



EDITORIALS: The Morning Star: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Rose (d. 7) VOTED NO 



(^ 007 5" 12 



656 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITORIALS: 
C. DISTRICTS: 



Fayetteville 

January 22 by Mario Calero 

March 6 by Teofilo Archibold 

The Observer-Times: IN SUPPORT 

Democrats: Rose (d. 7) VOTED NO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



Wi Ison 

February 24 by Teofilo Archibold 



EDITOKIALS: The Daily Times: 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Valentine (d. 2) VOTED NO 



657 



NEW MKXICO 



CITY: 
VISITED: 



EDITOR] a:. S : 



Albuquerque/Santa Fe 

November 22 by Xavier Arguello 

The Journal: IN SUPPORT 
The Tribune : IN SUPPORT 
The New Mexican: AGAINST 



C. DISTKICTS: -Republicans: Lujan (d. 1) VOTED YES 
-Democrats: Richardson (d. 3) VOTED NO 



658 



CITY: 
VISITr.D: 



EUITOKIALS: 



OKLAHOMA 

Tul sa 

November 25 by Xavier Arguello 

The Tulsa World: IN SUPPORT 



C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: .Jones ( d . I) VOTED YES 

Synar (d. 2) VOTED NO 



CITY: 

VISITtD: 



EDITORIALS: 



Oklahoma City 

November 26 by Xavier Arguello 

The Daily Oklahoman: IN SUPPORT 



DISTRICTS: -Democrats: McCurdy (d. U) VOTED NO 
English (d. 6) VOTED YES 
-Republicans: Edwards (d. 5) VOTED YES 



« 00-'57j' 



659 



SOUTH CAROLINA 

CITY: Rock Hi II /Anderson 

VISITED: February 11 by Mario Calero 

March 6 by Teofilo Archibolrt 
March 7 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITORIALS: The Evening-Herald: AGAINST 
The Independent-Mail: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Derrick (d. 3) VOTED NO 

Spratt (d. 5) VOTED NO 

CITY : Columbia 

VISITED: February 12 by Mario Calero 

EDITORIALS: The State: IN SUPPORT 
The Record: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTRICTS: Republicans: Spence (d. 2) VOTED YES 



^ 0075716 



660 



TENNESSEE 

CITY: . Chattanooga 

VISITED: January 27 by Xavier Arguello 

February 24 by Donald Lacayo 

EDITORIALS: The News-Free Press: IN SUPPORT 

The Times: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Lloyd (d. 3) VOTED NO 



CITY: Nashville 

VISITED: January 28 by Xavier Arguello 

January 29 by Xavier Arguello 

February 26 by Donald Lacayo 

March 12 by Jimmy Hassan 

March 13 by Jiamy Hassan 

EDITORIALS: The Tennessean: AGAINST 

The Banner: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Boner (d. 5) VOTED NO 



CITY : Col umbia 

VISITED: January 30 by Xavier Arguello 
February 25 by Donald Lacayo 

EDITORIALS: The Daily Herald: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Gordon (d. 6) VOTED NO 

CITY: Jackson 

VISITED: January 31 by Xavier Arguello 
February 27 by Donald Lacayo 

EDITORIALS: The Jackson Sun: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Jones (d. 8) VOTED SO 



« 0075717 



661 



TEXAS 

CITY: Houston 

VISITED: November 18 by Xavier Arguello 

EDITOKIALS: The Post: AGAINST 
The Chronicle: NEUTRAL 

C. DISTKICTS: -Republicans: Barton (d. 6) VOTED YES 

Archer ( d . 7) VOTED YES 

Fields (d. 8) VOTED YES 

DeLay (d.22) VOTED YES 

-Democrats: Brooks (d. 9) VOTED NO 

Leland (d.l8) VOTED NO 

Andrews (d.25) VOTED NO 

CITY: Dallas/Ft. Worth 

VISITED: November 19 by Xavier Arguello 
November 20 by Xavier Arguello 
February 19 by Teofilo Archibold 
February 20 by Teofilo Archibold 
March 16 by Jimmy Hassan 
March 17 by Jimmy Hassan 

EDITORIALS: The Morning News: IN SUPPORT 
The Tiraos-Herald : AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: -Republicans: Sartlett (d. 3) VOTED YES 

Armey (d.26) VOTED YES 

-Democrats: Hall (d. 4) VOTED YES 

Bryant (d. 5) VOTED NO 

Frost (d.24) VOTED NO 

CITY: El Paso 

VISITED: November 21 by Xavier Arguello 

February 17 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITORIALS: The Times: NEUTRAL 

The Herald-Post: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Coleman (d. 16) VOTED NO 

CITY: Abiline 

VISITEU: February 13 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITORIALS: The Reporter-News: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTKICTS: Democrats: Stenholm (d. 17) VOTED YES 



A 0075718 



662 



CITY: Austin 

VISITKD: February 21 by Teofilo Archibold 

EDITORIALS: The American Statesman: NEUTRAL 

C. DISTRICTS: -Democrats: Pickle (d. 10) VOTED NO 
-Republicans: Sweeney (d. U) VOTED YES 



CITY: San Antonio 

VISITED: March 3 by Xavier Arguello 

March lA by Jimmy Hassan 

March IS by Jimmy Hassan 

EDITORIALS: The Light: AGAINST 
The Express: AGAINST 

C. DISTRICTS: -Democrats: Gonzalez (d. 20) VOTED NO 

Bustamante (d. 23) VOTED NO 
-Republicans: Loeffler (d. 21) VOTED YES 



CITY: Corpus Christi 

VISITED: March 4 by Xavier Arguello 

EDITORIALS: The Caller-Times: IN SUPPORT 

C. DISTKICTS: Democrats: Coleman (d. 16) VOTED NO 

OrtiZ (d. 27) VOTED YES 



CITY: Galveston 

VISITED: March 5 by Xavier Arguello 

EDITORIALS: The Daily News: NEUTRAL 

C. DISTRICTS: Democrats: Brooks (d. 9) VOTED NO 

CITY: Beaumont/Pt. Arthur 

VlSirtU: March 6 by Xavier Arguello 
March 7 by Xavier Arguello 

F.DirORlALS: The Enterprise: IN SUPPORT 
The News: NEUTRAL 

C. DISTRICrS: Democrats: :?rooks (d. 9) VOTtD NO 

*"* END *»• 



A 007571C 



663 



the robert goodman agency^ inc. 



N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters" TV 

National Spot Placement 

Television Analysis 

Market Overview 



Market 




« Of 

Spots 


HH 
GRPs 




Total 
Cost 


MIAMI/WEST PALM 


BEACH 


29 


186 


S 


18,070 


ORLANDO/ DAYTONA 


BEACH 


62 


568 


$ 


27,250 


TAMPA /ST. PETERSBURG 


42 


289 


$ 


8,920 


JACKSONVILLE 




66 


500 


$ 


13,000 


SAN ANTONIO 




29 


430 


s 


18,430 


AUSTIN 




73 


605 


$ 


16,950 


McALLEN/ BROWNSVILLE 


30 


500 


s 


4,450 


CORPUS CHRISTI 




40 


571 


s 


4,905 


NASHVILLE 




35 


641 


s 


21,315 


MEMPHIS 




48 


389 


s 


10,530 


CHATTANOOGA 




58 


465 


$ 


8,910 


RALEIGH/DURHAM 




47 


471 


s 


21,100 


GREENVILLE/NEW BERN 


40 


502 


$ 


4,200 


GREENVILLE/SPART. /ASHEVILLE 


30 


410 


s 


15,000 


COLUMBIA 




35 


277 


$ 


6,290 


MACON 




26 


458 


$ 


6,415 


SAVANNAH 




67 


532 


s 


5,465 


ALBANY 




24 


493 


$ 


2,820 


JACKSON, MS 




56 


715 


s 


9,380 


COLUMBUS/ TUPELO 




62 


374 


s 


4,640 



UOI OLD COurr 110*0 SALTIMOaC MARYLAND 2120* (301) iW-UJO 



664 



the rohert goodman agency^ Ine, 



N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters" TV 
National Spot Placement 
Television Analysis 
Market Overview 

Page Two 



Market 

OKLAHOMA CITY 
TULSA 

LOUISVILLE 



NATIOV'AL MARKET TOTALS: 1017 
WASHINGTON, D.C. TOTALS: 101 
NATIONAL PROGRAM TOTALS: 1118 



# of 




HH 


Total 


Spots 




GRPs 


Cost 


16 




200 


S 6,675. 


62 




611 


$ 16,290. 


40 




403 


$ 11,520. 


L017 


10 


,590 


$262,525. 


101 




867 


S 99,225. 


L118 


11 


,457 


S361,750. 



A 0076195 



2201 ou> courr doao MLnMoac M*»rukNO 212M ood 2w-M30 



665 



the roberl goodman agency, inc. 

N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters" TV 

National Spot Placement 

Television Analysis 

MIAMI/WEST PALM BEACH 

Fascell (D-19th CD) Yes 

Pepper (D-18th CD) Yes 

Larry Smith (D-16th CD) Yes 

Shaw (R-15th CD) Yes 

LEHMAN (D-17th CD) NO 

Mica {D-14th CD) Yes 

29 Spots 186 HH GRPs S 18,070. 

ORLANDO/ DAYTONA BEACH 



MACKAY (D-6th CD) 


NO 




Chappell (D-4th CD) 


Yes 




McCollum (R-5th) 


Yes 




Nelson (D-llth CD) 


Yes 




Ireland (R-lOth CD) 


Yes 




62 Spots 568 


HH GRPs 


S 27,250 


TAMPA/ ST. PETERSBURG 


NO 




MACKAY (D-6th CD) 




Gibbons (D-7th CD) 


Yes 




Young (D-8th CD) 


Yes 




Biliralcis (R-9th CD) 


Yes 




Ireland (R-lOth CD) 


Yes 





42 Spots 289 HH GRPs 5 8,920. 

A 0076196 
2J01 OLD COU«T KkO iALTIMCWe l«»«TLAMO IllOi (JOH J«m» 



666 



the robert goodman agencyf inc. 

N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters" TV 
National Spot Placement 
Television Analysis 

Page Two 

JACKSONVILLE 

Bennett (D-3rd CD) Yes 

MACKAY (D-6th CD) NO 

Fuqua (D-2nd CD) Yes 

Chappell (D-4th CD) Yes 

Thomas (D-lst CD GA.) Yes 

Rowland (D-8th CD GA) Yes 

66 Spots 500 HH GRPs S 13,000. 

SAN ANTONIO 

DE LA GARZA (D-15th CD) NO 

BUSTAMANTE (D-23rd CD) NO 

PICKLE (D-lOth CD) NO 

GONZALEZ (D-20th CD) NO 

Loeffler (R-21st CD) Yes 

Sweeney (R-14th CD) Yes 

29 Spots 430 HH GRPs $ 18,430. 



PICKLE (D-lOth CD) 




NO 




Leath (D-llth) 




Yes 




Sweeney (R-14th CD) 




Yes 




Loeffler (R-21st CD) 




Yes 




73 Spots 605 


HH 


GRPs 


$ 16,950. 


Mc ALLEN/BROWNSVILLE 






A 007619 



DE LA GARZA (D-15th CD) NO 

Ortiz (D-27th) Yes 

30 Spots 500 HH GRPs $ 4,450. 



667 



the robert goodman agency^ Inc. 

N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters" TV 
National Spot Placment 
Television Analysis 

Page Three 

CORPUS CHRISTI 

DE LA GARZA {D-15th CD) NO 

Sweeney (R-14th CD) Yes 

Ortiz (D-27th CD) Yes 

40 Spots 571 HH GRPs S 4,905. 

NASHVILLE 

GORDON (D- 6th CD) NO 

COOPER (D-4th CD) NO 

JONES (D-8th CD) NO 

HUBBARD (D-lst CD KY) NO 

NATCHER (D-2nd CD KY) NO 

Rogers (R-5th CD KY) Yes 

BONER (D-5th CD) NO 

Sundquist (R-7th CD) Yes 

35 Spots 641 HH GRPs S 21,315. 



JONES (D-8th CD) NO 

WRITTEN (D-lst CD MS) NO 

ALEXANDER (D-lst CD ARK) NO 

FORD (D-9th CD) NO 

Sundquist (R-7th CD) Yes 

48 Spots 389 HH GRPs $ 10,530. 

A 007619B 



2201 OLO COU«T «0*0 (aLTIMOVt M«*TL*NO IIIOI 13011 2M-SU0 



668 



the robert goodman agency, inc. 

N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters" TV 
National Spot Placement 
Television Analysis 

Page Four 
CHATTANOOGA 



DUNCAN (D-2nd CD) 


NO 


LLOYD (D-3rd CD) 


NO 


COOPER (D-4th CD) 


NO 


Flippo (D-5th AL) 


Yes 


Darden (D-7th GA) 


Yes 


Jenkins (D-9th GA) 


Yes 


58 Spots 465 


HH GRPs 


RALEIGH /DURHAM 




WHITNEY (D-3rd CD) 


NO 


HEFNER (D-8th CD) 


NO 


VALENTINE (D-2nd CD) 


NO 


Cobey (R-4th CD) 


Yes 


Coble (R-6th CD) 


Yes 


ROSE (D-7th CD) 


NO 



$ 8,910. 



47 Spots 471 HH GRPs $ 21,100. 

GREENVILLE/NEW BERN 



JONES (D-lst CD) 


NO 




VALENTINE (D-2nd CD) 


NO 




WHITLEY (D-3rd CD) 


NO 




4 Spots 502 HH 


GRPs 


$ 4,200 


GREENVILLE/ SPARTANBURG/ASHEVILLE 


NO 




DERRICK (D-3rd CD) 


ft 007t.] 


SPRATT (D-5th CD) 


NO 




Campbell (R-4th CD) 


Yes 





669 



the rohert goodman agency, inc. 

N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters* TV 
National Spot Placement 
Television Analysis 

Page Five 



GR£ENVILLE/SPARTANBURG/ASHEVILLE (Continued) 

Hendon (R-llth CD NC) Yes 
Jenkins (D-9th CD GA) Yes 
Barnard (D-lOth CD GA) Yes 

30 Spots 410 HH GRPs $ 15,000. 



SPENCE 


(D- 


2nd 


CD) 






NO 


DERRICK 


(C 


i-3rd CD) 






NO 


Tallon 
3 5 Spot 


(D- 

.s 


6th 


CD) 


277 


HH 


Yes 

GRPs 



RAY 


(D- 


3rd 


CD) 








NO 


Rowland 


(D- 


-8th 


CD) 






Yes 


26 < 


;pot 


s 






458 


HH 


GRPs 



SAVANNAH 





Thooias (D-lst CD) Yes 




Hartnett (R-lst CD SO Yes 




67 Spots 532 HH GRPs 


ALBANY 






Hatcher (D-2nd CD) Yes 




RAY (D-3rd CD) NO 



$ 6,290. 



$ 6,415. 



$ 5,465. 



« 0076200 



24 Spots 493 HH GRPs $ 2,820, 



670 



the robert goodman agency, inc. 

N.E.P.L. "Freedom Fighters" TV 
National Spot Placement 
Television Analysis 

Page Six 

JACKSON, MS 

Franklin (R-2nd CD) Yes 
Montgomery (D-3rd CD) Yes 
Dowdy (D- 4th CD) Yes 

56 Spots 715 HH GRPs $ 9,380. 

COLUMBUS /TUPELO 

WHITTEN (D-lst CD) NO 
Franklin (R-2nd CD) Yes 
Montgomery (D- 3rd CD) Yes 

62 Spots 374 HH GRPs $ 4,640. 

OKLAHOMA CITY 



Watkins (D-3rd CD) 






Yes 


McCURDY (D-4th CD) 






NO 


Edwards (R-5th CD) 






Yes 


English (D-6th CD) 






Yes 


SYNAR (D-2nd CD) 






NO 


16 Spots 


200 


HH 


GRPs 



$ 6,675. 

Jones (D-lst CD) Yes 

Watkins (D-3rd CD) Yes 

SYNAR (D-2nd CD) NO « 0076201 

Edwards (R-5th CD) Yes 

62 Spots 611 HH GRPs $ 16,290. 



671 



the robert goodman agencyj ine, 

N.E.P.L. ■Freedom Fighters" TV 
National Spot Placement 
Television Analysis 



rage Seven 



LOUISVILLE 



MAZZOLI (D-3rd CD) 






NO 




NATCHER (D-2nd CD) 






NO 




Snyder (R-4th CD) 






Yes 




HOPKINS (R-6th CD) 






NO 




HAMILTON (D-9th CD 


IND) 


NO 




40 Spots 


403 


HH 


GRPs 


$ 11,520 



•^ 0076202 



2201 OLOCOU«T>0*0 •AITIMOIK MMTLkNO 21201 (Mil 2W-SU0 



672 



NICARAGUA EFFORT 
TARGETED CONGRESSIONAL KEPRESENTATIVES 



STATE 


PARTY 
■ D 


REPRESENTATIVE 
TOMMY ROBINSON 


DIST. OFF. 


DIST. PHONE NO. 


**AR ■ 


Little rockiz) 


(501) 378-S9«l 


CA 


K 


ED ZSCHAU 


SUNNYDALE(12) 


(<t08) 730-8555 


••CT 


R 


NANCY JOHNSON 


NEW BRITAIN(6) 


(203) V23-8«12 


CT 


K 


JOHN ROWLAND 


WATERBURY15) 


1203) 573-litl8 


••FL 





DON FUQUA 


TALLAHASSEE(2) 


(90M) 681-7il3a 


**FL 


U 


CHARLES BENNETT 


JACKSONO) 


(90it) 791-2587 


**FL 


D 


BUDDY MAC KAY 


0CALA(6) 


(90U) 351-8777 


FL 


D 


SAM GIBBONS 


TAMPA(7) 


(813) 228-2101 


FL 





DAN rt a. FASCELL 


MIAMIdS) 


(305) 350-5301 


FL 





DAN MICA 


PALM BtACH(1«) 


(305) 732-I4O0U 


(-L 


D 


CLAUDE PEPPER 


MlAMIHS) 


(305) 350-5565 


hL 


L) 


LAWRENCE SMITH 


HOLLTWOOD(16) 


(305) 987-6<»8« 


OA 


U 


CHARLES HATCHER 


ALBANY(2) 


(912) «39-8067 


tIA 


U 


J. ROY ROWLAND 


DUULIN(8) 


(912) 275-0024 


CA 





ROBERT L. THOMAb 


hOUMAO) 


(50«) 876-JiUJ 


HI 


u 


CtLIL HEFTEL 


HONOLULUtl) 


(BOe) 5*6-8997 


**IA 


R 


TOM TAUKE 


DUBUQUE(2) 


(319) 55/-77I10 


••ID 


D 


RIChaku DIALLINGS B0ISE(2) 


l^UH) 334-1953 


IL 


R 


HARRIS FAWtLL 


HINDSDALE(13) 


(312) 655-2052 


*«IL 


D 


MtLViN PRICE 


E. ST. LOUlsiifl) 


1618) 274-2200 


•*KY 





ROMANO MAZZOlI 


LOUISVILLEO) 


(502) SH/-SI29 


LA 


O 


CATHY LONG 


ALEXANDRIA(8) 


(318) 473-7430 


MO 


D 


BEVERLY BYRON 


l-KbDRICK(6) 


(301) 662-ab22 


ME 


K 


JOHN MC KERNAN 


PORTLAND! 1) 


(207) 780-3381 


ME 


R 


OLYMPIA SNOWt 


BANC0R(2) 


(207) 945-0432 


Ml 


R 


RObbKI DAVIS 


MARGUETTE(ll) 


1906) 228-3700 


••MO 





IKE SKELTON 


BLUE SPRINCS(4) 


(816) 228-4242 


••MS 


U 


JAMIE WHITTEN 


CHARLESTON(I) 


(601) 647-2413 


"nC 


D 


CHARLES WHITLEY 


COLUSBOROO) 


(919) 736-1844 


—NO 


D 


BILL HEFNER 


C0NL0KD(8) 


(704) 933-1615 


••NE 


K 


DOUGLAS BEREUTEH 


t LINCOLN(I) 


(402) 471-54UU 


**NH 


R 


JUDD GREGG 


CONLURDC) 


(603) 228-0315 


NJ 


R 


MARGE ROUKEMA 


KIUOEWOOD(5) 


(201) 447-390U 


"NJ 


K 


MATTHEW RINALDO 


UNION(7) 


(201) 687-4235 


NY 


D 


MARIO BIACGI 


BK0NX(19) 


(212) 931-0100 


NY 


R 


HAMILION FISH 


ROUGH KEEPblti:i) 


(914) 452-4220 


NY 


K 


BENJAMIN OILMAN 


MIUULbTOWN(22) 


(914) 343-6669 


••NY 


R 


FRANK NORTON 


ROtHESTER(29) 


(716) 263-6270 


NM 


U 


UILL RICHARDSON 


SANTA HEIS) 


(SOS) 988-6177 


••OH 


R 


WILLIS GRAUIbON 


CINCINNATI(2) 


(513) 684-2456 


"OK 


U 


JIM JONES 


TULSA(I) 


(SIB) 681-7111 


••OK 





WES WATKINS 


AUAU3) 


(405) 436-1980 


•*0K 





DAVE MC CUKUY 


NUKMAN(4) 


(405) 329-b5UU 


OK 


u 


GLENN ENGLISH 


OKLAHOMA CTY16) 


(405) 231-5511 


PA 





JOHN MURTHA 


JOHNbrOWNCn) 


(814) 535-2462 


PA 


u 


PAUL KANJORSKI 


WILKEb BAKKE(II) 


(717) 825-2200 


— PA 


R 


BILL COODLING 


YORK(19) 

A ( 


(717) 843-8887 

D081637 



673 



STATE PARTY 


**PA 


K 


••PA 


R 


PA 


R 


SC 


D 


SC 


D 


••TN 


D 


TN 





TN 


D 


••TN 


D 


••1 N 


D 


••TX 


D 


TX 


D 


TX 


D 


1 X 


L> 


TX 





TX 


D 


TX 


U 


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VA 


u 


VA 


D 


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K 


WA 


R 


Wl 





••Wl 


R 


••wv 


D 



REPRESENTATIVE 
TOM RIDCC 
BILL CLINCER 
LAWRENCE COUCHLIN 
BUTLER DERRICK 
JOHN SPRATT 
MARLYN LLOYD 
WILLIAM BONER 
JIM COOPtK 
BART CORDON 
ED JONES{JOHNSON) 
MIKE ANDREWS 
ALbbKl BUSTAMANTE 
JIM CHAPMAN 
KON COLEMAN 
E. de la GARZA 
SAM HALL 
iULUMON ORTIZ 
J.J. PICKLt 
DAN DANIEL 
NORMAN SISISKY 
SIU MORRISON 
ROD CHANDLtK 
LES AbPIN 
STEVE CUNDERSON 
ALAN MOLLAHAN 



DIST. OFF . 

ERIE(21) 

WARREN(23) 

N0RRIST0WN(13) 

ANDERS0N(3) 

ROCK HILL(5) 

CHATTANOOCAO) 

NASHVILLE15) 

bHELBYVILLE(«) 

MURFREESB0KO16) 

YUKKVILLE(8) 

HUUb IUN(25) 

SAN AN rONiUt23) 

SULPHUR SPRINGS 

EL PASO(lb) 

ML ALLENdS) 

MAKbMALL(l) 

CORP CHRlbl U27) 

AUbl IN(10) 

DANVILLECS) 

PORTSMOUTH(i») 

KENNEWICK(4) 

BELLEVUE(8) 

JONESVILLE(I) 

BLK KlVER FALLS 

CLARKSBURG 



DIST. 


PHONE NO. 


(»U) 


^e-JJSS 


(«l*) 


726-3910 


(21S) 


277-aO«0 


(803) 


22«-7«01 


(803) 


327-llH 


(*1S) 


267-9108 


(615) 


251-5295 


(615) 


b8«-111B 


1615) 


896-1986 


(901) 


6«3-6123 


(713) 


229-2i«i« 


(512) 


229-6191 


(21M) 


1185-8682 


l»15) 


5111-7650 


(512) 


682-5545 


Cii) 


938-838b 


(512) 


883-586b 


(512) 


482-5921 


(«oa) 


792-1280 


(804) 


393-2068 


(509) 


576-9702 


(206) 


442-0116 


(715) 


284-7431 


(3011) 


623-442^ 



A 0081638 



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Miiw and fmser V-^'RiWic Affairs. Inc 



March 4. 1983 



Mr. Oliver North 

NatioDal Security Council 

Room 392 

Old Executive Office Building 

WashlDgtOD, D. C. 20306 

Dear Ollie: 

We were asked to get thia over. We have 801 confirmations. 
Everyone is incredibly supportive, given the Importance of 
this to the President. 

Sincerely, 



Edle Eraser 



EF/kv 
Attachment: 



^ ^ A^.^^ 



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JOSO Wmwn/ Ai. NOV Wuhr^ton. DC 20X35 (lOZlmiSIS 




700 

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701 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO IN'VESTIGATE CO'/ERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

and 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Redstone Arsenal, Alabama 
Monday,, koqxiat 10> i9%X,^ 

The deposition of JOHN RANDOLPH CHAPMAN and BILLY RAY REYER, 
called for examination m the above-entitled matter, pursuant to 
notice, m the office of the Staff Judge Advocate, room G15, 
building 111, Redstone Arsenal, Alabama, convened at 3:07 p.m., 
when were present on behalf of the parties: 



corf wg I fTrw — 1 copks 



Pnaly Oecia9t«)/**aused on 

mler DroMS«ns at E 3 123SE 
Of K Jonaon Httona Siony Ooirct 



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mmfB 




Hlii 



702 



APPEARANCES : 



llplK-is 



On Behalf of the Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and Nicaraguan Opposition of 
the United States Senate: 

JOHN SAXON, ESQUIRE 

Associate Counsel 

901 Hart Senate Office Building 

Washington, D.C. 20S10 



7 

8 On Behalf of the Department of the Army: 

9 COLONEL JOHN K. WALLACE III 

Chief, Investigations and Legislative Division Office 
xo Chief of Legislative Liaison 

Office of the Secretary of the Army 
H HQDA (SALL-IL) 

Washington, D.C. lOaiO-1600 
12 

13 

Court Reporter: 

15 Diane S. Mohlere 

U.S. Array Missile Command 

16 Attn: AMSMI-JA 

Redstone Arsenal, AL 35898-5120 
17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



703 







WlCTe 








CONTENTS 




2 


WITNESSES 




EXAMINATION 


3 


JOHN RANDOLPH CHAPMAN 






4 


BILLY RAY REYER 






5 


By Mr. Saxon 




4 




7 




EXHIBITS 




8 


NUMBER 






9 


Exhibit 1 






10 


Exhibit 2 






11 








12 








13 








15 








16 








17 








18 








19 
20 




UNCLASSinED 




21 








22 








23 








24 








25 









704 



15 



17 



19 



Mmmu 



P K* 
Whereupon, 

JOHN RANDOLPH CHAPMAN and BILLY RAY REYER 
were called for examination by counsel for the Senate Select Committee, 
and having been first duly sworn by Colonel John K. Wallace III, were 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. SAXON: 



2 

3 
4 
5 
6 
7 

8 

o ft If you would, Mr. Chapman, state your full naaae for the 

j^Q record, please, sir. 



^j^ A. John Randolph Chapman. 



Q. And your position? 

A. I'm the branch chief for the Medium Low Altituda> Air Defense 
Systems within the Materiel Managemant Directorate. 

Qi And is the HAWK system one of those systems over which you 



j^j have supervisory authority? 



A. Yes, it is. 



jg Oi And was it at the time of what we know now as Project Crocus, 



dealing with the provision of HAWK repair parts by the Department of 



20 the Army, ultimately to, as we now know, the CIA and Iran? 



21 A. Yes. 

22 Qi And, Mr. Reyer, would you state your full name for the record, 

23 please, sir? 

24 A. Billy Ray Reyer. 

25 Ql Spell your last name, please, sir. 



UNCUSSinED 



706 



25 



ti ^' J 




A. R-e-y-e-r. 

2 Q. Now, what is your position? 

3 A. CTIl«*'of the HAWK Repair Parts Section. 

4 Qi And were you in that position at the time of Project Crocus? 

5 A. Yes. 

6 fit And to whom do you report? 

7 A. Mr. Chapman. 

8 Ql And did you report to Mr. Chapman at the time of your 

9 involvement with Project Crocus? 

10 A. Yes . 

11 Ql Let me say for the record for subsequent readers of this 

12 deposition that today I have spent time with Mr. Chapman and Mr. Reyer 

13 individually, and we've covered a good many matters. wSi ItSsudouiuI it 
* nacessary to, on the record, to have a few things clarifiad. in sworn 

15 testimony, primarily with regard to the issue of readiness as regards 

16 to the provision of HAWK ground equipment repair parts to the CIA 

17 and Project Crocus. Let me ask you, Mr. Reyer, briefly I will 

18 describe the process as I understand it, and you tell me if this is 

19 correct recapitulation of what you told me this morning. As the 

20 requirement for the repair parts were passed down from Department 

21 of Army, Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff of Logistics, I believe 

22 that was directly from Major Simpson, is that correct? 

23 A. Yes. 

2* Q. That'd be Major Christopher Simpson, the Army Action Officer. 

The request was for approximately 2 34 line items, is that correct? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



706 



2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

IS 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



A. Right. 

ft And that request came in sometime in the early part of April. 
You got it on one day, and then people here more or less around the 
clock began to take a look at the availability of these items, where 
they were located, what quantities you had, if there was any readiness 
impact; and a document waa pcepar*^ and datafaxed back to Major Simpson 
that seune evening or early the next morning, is that correct? 

A. It was datafaxed back to Ax« Oiaiaend at AMC. 

gi Th« Army Materiel Command. And at the time you faxed that 
back, am I correct, in saying that ar tentative- determination was made 
ae to the potential impact on readiness if these items were, psovidad? 

A. «». 

ft Were there some items that you would have preferred not to 
ship due to the readiness impact? 

A. One in particular that was discussed, and that is I 



come to^^^^^^^^^^^^Ha 
later, but at that first look at availability, when you first made 
the readiness determination, if I recall your statement to me this 
morning, there were approximately 47 items that were identified as 
having .thft BBt#otial for some readiness impact, is that correct? 

A Y— , - Tnyiirr is if they would be shipped tomorrow. 

ft In the quantities requested. 

A Yes . 

ft And, as I understand it — and, again, correct me; I'm doing 



IINClASS^RFe 



707 






MiLii 



2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

4 

15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



it this way in the interest of time, but, as I understand it, as you 
talked through these items, you and Mr. Chapman and perhaps others, 
you would indicate, "Well, we would prefer not to provide that quantity. 
Could we provide a lesser quantity?" and so forth, so just through 
raducin? quantities, that number, 47, was reduced down some, is that 

MR. CHAPMAN: Insofar as what th« impact would b*» yea. 

Qi Okay, and I assume that as you further refined the look at 
where these were located and whether some could be repaired, and so 
forth, the numbers came down further from what they had f irst--readines: 
impact could be, is that correct? 

MR. REYER: I don't recall a complete analysis of impacts after 
the initial review was made. 

MR. CHAPMAN: The same number of items were still involved. We 
didn't- avar reduce those 46 items down to 5, as an exaaple. We still 
shipped some quantity of those seuD* 4& it«m». 




708 




8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
2S 



Q, Okay. Let's go through it, then, in whatever way the facts 
support because that's all we're really interested in. Let me ask 
either of you or both of you for your best judgment of the total number 
that you actually did supply that would have had what you would have 
classified as some readiness impact, after all the back and forth 
and changes in quantity and the like, and whatever way you would 
characterize it, what number, ballparking, would have had some 
readiness impact or at least the potential existed at that time? 

MR. R£YER: Potential impact, one item. 

gi All right, and that one item would be what? 



A- il 

Q. And what is 

A. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

Q. And that is^^^^^Hfor the HAWK system? 

A. ^^^^Bfor the HAWK system. 





709 



2 
3 
4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

.* 

15 



^msifiB 



10 



(j. And if I'm referring to this document, which — all of which 

I will make Exhibit 1, that would be on page 2, your control item 
number^^^Bis that correct? 

A. Yes. 

ft And this 13 an item that the requested quantity — and I'll 
use the ultimate customer — from the Iranians was^^His that correct? 

A. Correct. 

ft And the quantity that you determined we actually had on 
hand was how many? 

ft And how many do your records show we actually provided? 

ft So, we did ship all that was requested? 

\ [indicating yes] 

ft Now, let me ask you a little bit about this item. As I 



1* understand it, it isl 



that goes into 



17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



^^^ is that correct? 

A. Yes. 

ft And is it what you refer to as a mandatory stockage item? 
It's an item that all using units must keep on hand? 

A. y«a, it la. 

ft And why is that? 

MR. CHAPMAN: I guess to State it very simply, that is an item 
that, should it fail in that] 

ft In the existing system that they have? 



Ji 



710 




11 



2 
3 
4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



[then becomes 



A. In the existing system — that that] 

nonfunctional. 

Q. It would deadline the system? 

A. It would deadline the system, yes. 

Ql Which is the language that is often used, which means, to 

a layman like myself, the system would not work. 

A. That's correct. 




What's the — what would a 
unit do if they were in a situation where they needed a replacement 
and one was not in stock? 

MR. REYER: The item would depend on the Varian Corporation 
for both new procurement — 

Ql Spell the name of the vendor, if you would. 

A. V-a-r-i-a-n. California. We depend on them for new 
procurement and for repair of unserviceable assets, and based on 
their delivery schedules, the ability that they have to produce, 
then we would have problems. 

Q. And this is .an item that units have to carry on their PLL, 
or pre«c»i><^tniid list, is that correct? 

A. ' X'b- not surs that it's under PLL or the ASL. 

Ql What is ASL, for the record? 

A. Authorized stockage list. 



711 




delivery sclMdule that we have today, we estimate that that item 
will b* 




m^mm 



712 




(The proceeding went off the record from 3:20 p.m. to 3:35 p.m.] 

Q. While we're on this topic, let me ask both of you if, in 
21- your best judgment, there were other item* actually provided other 



22 



than 



ifor which, at the time, you identified a 



^^ significant or some potential impact on readiness? and let me put it 

^* to you this way. After meeting the requirement and transferring 

2' these parts, were you left in a state of feeling uncomfortable about 



UNCIASSI 



A^-if m 



r\t 



713 



w^sffia 



14 



the inventory" levels with regard to some of the parts that you had 
provide*? whoever wants to answer that. 

MR. CHAPMAN: If you look at the list that you've entered into 
the records for Exhibit A and look at the items on there in the impact 
column where it says "yes," which says, "This is a potential impact 
if we ship these assets," in my opinion, I would say of those that 
says "yes," — 

Qi And that was initially about 47, right? 

A. This was initially about 47. With the exception of knowing 
that ^^^^^^^^^ for sure category^^lJH^I^^^^^H^n 

the other items I would say I personally vrauld. ilftO-:*. 
uncomfortable about the ones to where they asked for a.qxu»*ity and, ^ 
we provided the entire quantityj 





IWSSiFe 



714 



2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

H 

12 

13 

4 

15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 




Q. Now, for the quantities that you actually shipped, this 

gets us to what I believe will be Exhibit 2, which I'll mark in a 
moment. This is a datafax doc\im«nt, I believe, that casM from 
Headquarters, Department of the Army, in Washington, froa the office 
of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics to Headquarters, MICOM, 
is that correct? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And who sent this document to you? Was that Major Simpson? 

A. Mkjor Siiopson. 

ft And it's dated 23 April '86, and as I understand the way 
you described this document, it is the final list of here are the 
iteas which you will provide, is that — 

A. That is correct. 

ft And so, if we looked at this list and went down it where 
the quantities are listed of vrtiat was requested; for example, with 
regard to item I 
what you would have provided. 




A That is true, yes. 

ft Is there anything else that we need to know on the record 
about Exhibit 2? 




mms 



715 






16 



A. No. 

2 MR. CHAPMAN: No. 

3 Qi All right, gentlemen. Let me ask you a couple of quick 

4 questions about what transpired between your level here at Redstone 

5 and the Department of Army Logistics office and whether that specific 

6 conversations with Major Simpson by either of you or someone else. 

7 That's what I want to get at. When you reached tha point where you 

8 determined that some items were going to create a potential readiness 

9 problem, was that issue flagged and discussed with people at Headquarter: 

10 DA? 

11 MR. CHAPMAN: I had a conversation with Major Simpson eUscut that 

12 after he had received our list and had reviewed it, and he saw where 

13 we'd indicated there was an impact, expressed a concern about some 
* of these items, and at that time he said he would take that up, 

15 and he used the word "with the leadership" in DA, his superiors. 

16 Exactly what they discussed and what the results of that, he never 

17 really conveyed to me other than the fact that he said the decision 

18 has been that "We want these items in these quantities. Can you 

19 provide them?" 

20 Q. And your answer, I guess, was yes. 

21 A. y«s. 

22 Q_ And what resulted from that was what we just saw as Exhibit 2. 

23 A. That's correct. 

24 Ql Was there a point at which anybody specifically cited H^^H 

25 ^^^^^^^^Hi^Hand said, "It is of sufficient criticality and the 



'nmm 



716 




00 




17 



2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

.•4 

15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



numbers ar« auch that although you asked fori 

and if we P^^X{^<^e^^^^^^^B it's going to create something of a probleitr 
Did anybody break that item out and discuss it specifically with 
Major Simpson? 

Mi^. R£YER: That item was discussed and the supply position of 
i^^ right from the beginning. 

Q. By whom and with whom? 

A. Myself and Major Simpson and Mr. Chapman and Major Simpson. 

Q. And was there any response he gave in that discussion 

different from what Mr. Chapman has just described? 

A. NO;r 

ft At any point, did he indicate that he had taken the issu«-— 
let's talk now about^^Hj^^^^^^^^^B-up with his superiors with 
the customer and that he had made the arguments about readiness and 
had in fact been overruled? Did he ever communicate anything like 
that back to you? 

MR. CHAPMAN: I don't recall any from that standpoint. A lot 
of the discussion we had with him was dealing with the quantity 
that they had requested, and he seemed to be concerned with the 
fact^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hthat they 
we had talked, "Well, what is the time frame that you want these? 
because we have some unserviceable assets that we could repair that 
we could possibly make available, but the lead time associated with 
repairing it is 'x' months, and can you wait?" That type of discussic 
went on. 



"Wstfie 



717 



illiSSifitO 



18 



MR. R£YER: As John stated, you know, he stated he would take 
It up with titm leadership, and once he would come back to us then 
and say, "Okay, we'll go with this quantity," then we assumed that 
he had the approval to go with the quantity that we agreed on. 

Q. Did — since your superior, Mr. Reyer, is Mr. Chapman, let 

me ask you, Mr. Chapman. Did you ever raise the specific issue with 
anyone who was in a supervisory position to you about either some of 
these items, in general, in terns of readiness or, specifically. 



MR. CHAPMAN: .Well, my immediate supervisor, who's the division 
chief, Mr. Jim King, was — we kept him — I kept him abreast of what all 
was going on and explained to him every time we had a conversation 
with Major Simpson; I would keep him up to speed on what was going 
on, and he and I discussed these issues. 

Q, So, is it fair to say from that general answer that he 

knew about the problem with 

A. YCft. 

ft TO your knowledge, did he ever raise that with his superior? 

A. Whether or not he discussed that specific item, I can't say. 
I know the entire issue was discussed. 

ft And who was Mr. King's superior? 

A. Mr. Finafrock. 

ft And Mr. Finafrock reported to General Burbules, or was there 
another level? 

A. There's another— of course, Mr. Finafrock is the Deputy 



laissifiE 



718 



25 



fiWSSlliEe 



19 



Director for Materiel Management, and Lieutenant Colonel promotable 

2 Jim Link is the Director. 

3 Qi Spell Link. 

4 A. L-i-n-k. And the two of them report to Mr. Isom, who is 

5 the Director for the Missile Log Center SES. 

6 Ql And Mr. Isom reports to General Burbules? 

7 A. To General Burbules. 

8 Ql Let me ask it this way. To your knowledge, was General 

9 Burbules, as the Army Missile Command commander, ever made aware 

10 of any potential readiness problem with regard to meeting this 

11 requirement on the HAWK repair parts, either in general or specifically 

13 A. I don't think so. Well, first, we're saying General Burbules 

' General Reese had already replaced General Burbules. 
15 Ql By the time — 
^■6 A. That's true. 
1^ Ql Thanks for that correction. 

1' MR. REYER: We — to my knowledge, we had no discussions or anythi.-ic 
19 



with General Reese until the billing issue was raised. 

^° Q. Spell Reese for us, please. 

^1 A. R-double e-s-e. 

22 MR. CHAPMAN: I guess the only thing that General Reese really 

2^ knew about it was kind of like in a summary type deal where, "There's 
24 



this special project going on, and the people in materiel management 
are doing this," and, you know, just a short note to let him know 



il?l M^Jorn 



719 



i<msm 




n 



20 



something's going — no details. 

MR. REYER: We had what we call MLC update. 

gi What is MLC? 

A. Missile Logistics Center. And the different directors 
report to the CG on issues that they considered important. 

Q. CG's commanding general? 

A. Commanding general. During this exercise, I prepared a 

8 update to the Logistics Center, stating that 139 items had been 

9 assembled at Red River Depot on directions from DA, and then when 

10 we received instructions or directions from DA to ship the items, 

11 I again prepared an update stating that we had received instructions 

12 to ship the materiel to another destination. 

n Ql And is it safe to say that at all times as you were going 
.- through this process, you clearly understood you were in an executing 

15 mode and were being tasked or had requirements imposed on you by 

16 the Department of the Army over which you had no discretion? Is 

17 that a safe statement? 

18 A. Yes, that is correct. 

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. 

20 g. At any time, did you know these HAWK repair parts were going 

21 to the CIA, Mr. Chapman? 

22 MR. CHAPMAN: No. 

23 g, Mr. Reyer? 
2* MR. REYER: No. 

25 Ql Either of you know they were going to Iran? 



mmm 



720 



16 
17 

18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 




21 



MR. CHAPMAN: No. 

2 MR. REYER: No. 

3 ft In terms of the HAWK repair parts requirement, which we know 

4 as Project Crocus, you have been interviewed, I believe, by investigator; 

5 from the Oapartmsnt of the Army Inspector General and from the 

6 a«n*rai Accounting Office, is that correct? 

7 MR. CHAPMAN: That's correct. 

8 Ql At any time, have you been asked specifically about the 

9 readiness impact in providing these repair parts? 

10 MR. CHAPMAN: I'd say yeah. There was some discussion abou^ the 

11 itena and whathar or not there was an impact or not. We didn't — they 
^2 didn't ask as many detailed or probing questions as we've had today, 
'^ but there was some question about it. 

'■'* Q. Would that be from the DA IG? 

15 A. Yea. 

g. What about the GAO? 

A. GAO's inquiries were dealing mainly with the pricing of 
the items and the quantities of the items. 

Q. In terms of the billing that took place, I think it's a 

fair statement from the informal interviews that I had with each 
of you this morning and from the worksheet or summary that you 
prepared for us in the interim that there were some glitches, I 
think is the word that was used this morning, in the billing and 
that the monies were actually received some time later than you 
might have otherwise hoped. Is that a fair statement? 



yNOLASSIFlEO 



721 




IFIEO 



^^fmt 



MR. REYER: Yes. There was some problems in the billing. 

2 Oi All right. Mow, let me ask for the record if, in your 

3 judgment, either of you, there was any undesirable or negative impact 

4 on your capability to do your job from having been deprived of a 

5 few dollars being in the proper account at an earlier date than was 

6 actually provided. 

7 MR. REYER: In my opinion, it did not delay any procurements 

8 as the results of funding shortage. 

9 Qi Finally, ask each of you separately — let's start with you, 

10 Mr. Chapman--at any point in mid- to late-198 5, were you ever asked 

11 to provide any information about sending HAWK missile systems, 

12 missiles and launchers, specifically to Iran? 

13 MR. CHAPMAI-I: No. I had no knowledge of any such action 
until it was mentioned this morning in our discussions. 

15 Qi What about you, Mr. Reyer? 

16 MR. REYER: No, I had no contact pertaining to this. I also 

17 discussed this with the managers of the missiles and the launchers 

18 after I returned to the office today, and they said they had no — 

19 there was no contact with there concerning this. 

20 Ql For the record, I want to walk through the question in 

21 several way«. The first was with regard specifically to Iran. Second, 

22 were you askad, either of you, in mid- to late '85 about the provision 

23 of a quantity of either 500 HAWKs or 120 HAWKs to Israel? Mr. Chapman? 

24 MR. CHAPMAN: No. 



25 0, Mr. Reyer? 



mSSIFIED 



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MR. REYER: NO. 

CI Were you asked at any point about the availability of HAWKs 
in November of '85 for any customer, perhaps unidentified? 
MR. CHAPMAN: No. 
Ql Mr. Reyer? 

MR. REYER: No. The question--did — we have received some 
information beginning of the hearings about Israel. 

MR. CHAPMAN: But he's talking about in November of '85. 
MR. REYER: I'm sorry. November of *85? No. 
10 Ql Recent inquirifjs, yes; I'm sure there probably have been 
LI some, as we now know what took place in 1985, so it's fair to say as 
12 far as the two of you know, there were no inquiries made of the. 
1 Missile Command about HAWKs in that time frame that would in any 
i.* way connect with Iran or Israel. 

15 MR. REYER: Correct. 

16 Ql Gentlemen, is there anything else that I've not covered 

17 that you think we need to cover and get on the record? 
IS MR, REYER: No. 

I* MR. CHAPMAN: Not to my knowledge. 

MR. SAXON: Let me say on behalf, specifically, the Senate and, 
I think, the House that both of you have been very patient. You've 
taken up most of your day with my questions, and we appreciate very 
much your testimony, your candor. It's been very helpful to the 
committees as we do our job. Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 3:52 p.m., August 10, 1987, the taking of the deposition 
was concluded. ] 



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TRANSCRIPT 
OF PROCEEDINGS 






UNITED STATES SENATE Ujlfl JTV /tO 

ONCLASSIHED 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAH OPPOSITION 






BNffR^W- 



DEPOSITION OF BElJjAMIN P. CHATHAM 



ONCt«iriEfl 



Partally Declassified/Released on iJ^^^o g 
unflet provisions ol E 12356 
by K Johnson. National Sacuniy Council 



Washington, D. C. 
Wednesday, March 18, 1987 




Ace-Federal R eport ers, Inc. 

Sitnohfpt tvporttn 
444 North Camtol Street 
V\SMhington, D.C. 20001 

(202) 347-37D0 
Nitionwide Coverage 
800-336-6646 \ , ^ 



758 



CR.'i0235.0 
DAV/sjg 




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7 

8 

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10 
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UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COt>lMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF BENJAMIN P. CHATHAM 

Washington, D. C. 
Wednesday, March 18, 1987 

Deposition of BENJAMIN P. CHATHAM, called for examination 
pursuant to notice of deposition, at the offices of the Select 
Conunittee, Room 901, Hart Senate Office Building, at 2:05 p.m. 
before DAVID L. HOFFMAN, a Notary Public within and for the 
District of Columbia, when were present: 



JOHN DAVID SAXON, ESQ. 

Associate Counsel 

United States Senate Select 

Committee on Secret 

Military Assistance to 

Iran and the Nicaraguan 

Opposition 
Room 901 

Hart Senate Office Building 
Washington, D. C. 

Partially Oeclassitied/Releascd on — jJA*Joe 
undet provisions of E 12356 
by K Jorinson, National Secuniy Council 




Ace-Feder.\l Reporters, In 



f- 



Naiionwide Coteraic 



3nO.]lA-n646 



759 



UNClASSiflEO 



CONTENTS 



2 


WITNESS 








EXAMINATION 


3 


Benjamin P. 


Chatham 






4 


by Mr 


Saxon 




3 


s 


CHATHAM 


DEP 


E X H I 


BITS 




6 


OSITION NUMBER 




IDENTIFIED 


7 


Exhibit 


1 




21 


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1 


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Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 



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760 



2350 01 01 
1 DAV/bc 



I Si 



iCLASSlFIED 



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PROCEEDINGS 



(2:05 p.m. ) 



Whereupon, 



BENJAMIN P. CHATHAM 
was called as a witness and, having been duly sworn, was 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. SAXON: 
Q Mr. Chatham, first of all, I want to thank you 
for coming, for your willingness to cooperate with the 
committee. The conversations we've had, you seem to have an 
attitude of trying to help us in our process of getting at 
the truth of everything that went on. 

And your what seems to be a small role may or may 
not seem relevant to you, but we're trying as best we can to 
find out everything we can. 

For the record for us, would you state your name, 
address, phone number, and so forth? 

A Do you want my business address or personal? 
Both. 

A My name is Benjamin P. Chatham. Business address 
is Automatic Door Specialists, 132 Washington Boulevard, 



ACE-fEDERAL' REPORTERS, InC. 



Nadonwide Coverage 



761 






.2350 01 02 

1 DAV/bc 1 Laurel, Maryland 20707. 

address i- 3 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^H Laurel, 

3 Maryland 20708. 

4 Your business is Automatic Door Specialist. What 

5 is your position? 

6 A I am in charge of sales for the company. 

7 Q Your title is Sales Manager? 

8 A Or Vice President for Salas. 

9 Q Tell us, if you would, what Automatic Door 

10 ! Specialists is? iftiat's the nature of the business? Vftiat do 

11 you do? 

12 A We do a variety of things. We sell, install and 

13 service automatic doors, automatic gates, access control 

il 

14 I systems, closed circuit television, anti-terrorist 

15 barricades, parking systems. 

16 Any electronic surveillance systems? 

17 A Well, only in that they're connected to access 
19 control systems. Burglar alarm type systems. Some outside 

19 sentry systems that go on fences, and things of that 

20 nature. 

21 What can you tell us about the anti-terrorist 

22 systems that you have installed? 




Nationwide Co»er»ge 



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A Okay. Most of them are installed for the 
government. 




From a non-U. S. government point of view, the 




You're here, as you know, to talk about the 
installation of an automatic door at the home of Lieutenant 
Colonel Oliver North. I understand from what you've told me 
that when that was installed, at the time, you did not know 
it was the home of Colonel North. 

But, for purposes of my questioning, let me just 
refer to the door that you installed at Colonel North's 
home. 

For the record, would you tell us whether you 
knew that was the home of Colonel North when you installed 
it? 

A No. My first knowledge that it was Colonel 
North's home was last Thursday. 

But it was at Colonel North's home as best you 



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have since been able to"* » *-^^*'^'"-^- ' .^l---! 

A Yes, as I have been able to ascertain, that's 
true. 

What was the address of the home in which you 
installed this gate? 




Great Falls, Virginia. 
for us? 



A 

Q 
A 

What was the date of the installation? 

A I can tell you that we finished on or about the 
6th of July because we invoiced the work on the 7th of July, 
and we normally do that shortly after finishing the work. 

What type of door was it? 

A Actually, we did not install the gate. The gate 
was already there. All we did was connect an automatic 
operator to the gate, install an intercom from the gate 
location to the house, to several locations within the 
house, so that people in the house could talk to guests. 

And once they had talked to them, opened the gate 
from the house. 

Q This was a gate at the entrance of the driveway? 

A That's correct. 






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So that someone would come up to the house, there 
would be an intercom. They would — 

A Press a button, which would ring a chime in the 
house. 

Someone inside could activate the door being 
opened? 

A That's correct. Additionally, there were 
controls that the residents of the home could use on their 
automobile to open the gate from their automobile. 

Q Who specified the particular features that you 
were to provide, since you didn't provide the gate itself, 
without using features for everything that you would have 
provided? 

A The gate was already there. The remainder of 
equipment was arrived at in a discussion between a man by 
the name of Glen Robinette and myself. 

Did Mr. Robinette recommend any particular types 
of features? 

A He had a general idea of how he wanted it to 
operate. It was a compromise position on what he wanted to 
spend and what we could install for that price. 

Q Was it your sense in talking with Mr. Robinette 

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1 DAV/bc 1 that he had been to the residence and was familiar with the 

2 physical features of the gate, and so forth? 

3 ' A Yes. At the time that I initially discussed this 

4 I job with him on the telephone, he appeared to have been to 

i 

■5 j the residence before. And then we subsequently met at the 

6 ; location prior to me giving him a proposal to do the work. 

I 

7 i Q Have you since had occasion to service the gate 

1 

8 I or any of the equipment you installed? 

9 i A I think we have serviced the equipment a couple 

10 I of times. I don't have those dates. But I would say that 

11 the majority of the service work was done probably within 

12 I the first 90 days after the installation. 

i 

13 |i Q And in the normal course of business, you would 

14 I service the equipment? 

15 A Yes, because the equipment we install has a 

16 I manufacturer's warranty of 90 days. So any parts that go 
i 

17 I bad, we have to replace under that warranty. 

18 Who contacted you with regard to the service 

19 needed when it was provided? 

20 A Mr. Robinette. 

21 Do you know who was home, if anyone, in the times 

22 when the gate was installed or serviced, or any of the times 



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1 DAV/bc 1 that you or anyone else may have gone out to the North home? 

2 A On the two occasions that I was there in 

3 reference to the proposal, no one was home. During the 

4 I installation, the people that I had installing the equipment 

5 stated that there were at least two women and some children 

6 there. 

7 Q I assume someone would have had to be home to 

8 allow your technicians in to do the installation? 

9 I A Yes. And before we went to do the installation, 

I 

10 we had to coordinate the date and the time with 
1 

11 I Mr. Robinette so he could ensure someone would be there. 
I 

12 Q You learned that this was Colonel North's home, 

13 I as you said, I believe, before we began last week, from the 

14 media. Is that correct. 

15 ' A Yes, when CBS called and wanted to make some 

I 

16 ' inquiries. 

17 At no point did Mr. Robinette say this is Colonel 

18 North's home, Oliver North's home? Mr. North's home? 

19 A No. He said that it was an associate of his that 

20 he was doing a favor for. 

21 Who paid for the installation of the gate? 

22 A Mr. Robinette. 




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What was the total amount? 

A $2,173. 

Q How was that paid for? 

A Paid in cash. 

Q Was it at all unusual for you to do a job in that 
price category or neighborhood and be paid in cash? 

A I would say yes because there have been very 
infrequent times when anyone's paid us in cash. 

Q Did you make any comment at the time about being 
paid in cash? 

A No. • 

Q Who received the cash? 

A I did. 

Q So, if any comment would have been made by 
anyone, it would have been you? 

A Right. In fact, I was called, upon his receiving 
our bill, he called and asked me to meet him so that he 
could pay me in cash. 

Did Mr. Robinette say why he was paying in cash? 

A No. 

Q Did he make any comment about whether that was 
his usual manner of conducting business? 



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A No. He did not. 

Q Did he say why he wanted to have you meet him 
somewhere? 

A No. And the place that we met was kind of a 
peculiar place. 

vniy don't you tell us about where did you meet? 

A We met at a Japanese restaurant in Silver Spring, 
Maryland, called the Sakura Palace. 

Q Is that the place of his specification? 

A Yes. 

Did you sense he was specifically specifying a 
neutral meeting place rather than on your premises? 

A I had no idea why he picked this particular 
place. My memory on why is hazy, but I think he said he had 
to meet someone else there' later. But I may be a little 
hazy on that. But I think that he said that. 

Q Would I be safe in saying or concluding that this 
was a bit unusual, both as to payment in cash and to meet 
off your premises? 

A Yes, it was. And the fact that I was paid 
primarily ion $20 bills, it was given to me in a plain white 
envelope, was again very peculiar. 



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Q Anything else unusual about the bills? They were 
$20 denominations? 

A Mostly twenties. I think there may have been one 
100 and maybe two fifties. The rest was all twenties. 

Q Who made the initial contact with your firm 
regarding this job? 

A Mr. Robinette called and I do not know the data, 
but I assume that it was sometime in mid-June, asked for 
some type of budgetary estimate on what it would cost to do 
some work on a gate and an intercom system in Great Falls, 
Virginia. 

I gave him that estimate. The following day, he 
called back and asked if I would meet him at the residence. 
I met him at a gas station near the residence, and he drove 
down and I followed him to the residence. 

Q Did he specify that you meet him at the gas 

station? 

A Yes. 

Did he say it was because the instructions 
specifically to the home would have been difficult to 



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1 DAV/bc 1 follow? Was that the easy way? 

2 A Weill I thinlc he did it because that would be a 

3 convenient place to meet. 

4 Did he say anything which would indicate when he 

5 called for the estimate that he would have to look at a 

6 budgets look at cash flow figures? Go to anybody else for 

7 approval in any way for this amount of money, and for this 

8 particular job? 

9 A No, he did not, although I assume that that was 
10, probably the case. 

11 Q Did he ever use a statement of "we"? "We have to 

12 do this"? "We have to set this up".? We have to have this 

13 amount approved"? "We have to come up with the money"? 

14 j A No. His only terminology was that he was doing 

15 it for an associate. 

16 Old anyone at Automatic Door other than yourself 

17 deal with Mr. Robinette in this matter? 
13 A No, that's it. 

19 Other than Mr. Robinette saying that he was doing 

20 this at the home of an associate and he was doing it as a 

21 favor for that associate, did he say what the nature of his 

22 association with the individual we now know to be Mr. North 




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A Well, I believe he said that they had been 
associated prior to the present time in the Middle East. 
And that he felt that by doing this work that we possibly 
would be able to do some further work in the future. 

And one of the things he asked me about was did 
we do work in overseas locations. And I said not normally 
but, depending upon what it was, we would certainly consider 
it. And there was a discussion about it. 

It involved installing electronic devices on 
buildings in overseas areas. And when I asked which areas, 
I was told that he was not at liberty to tell raie that, but 
it would be in the Far East and other parts of the world. 
And that our personnel would have to have government 
security clearances. 



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1 Did he tell you why he was handling this himself? 

2 A I can't remember the exact words. He said he was 

3 doing a favor for this friend of his who was too busy and 

4 did not know the types of things that he would necessarily 

5 need to provide security for his home. 

6 1 Q Did he say why this associate needed security for 

7 his home? 

8 A The statement was made that there had been some 

9 vandalism or damage done in the area of the home, 

10 specifically, the mailbox, and in addition to the equipment 

11 I that we did install, there was some discussion about 

12 installing closed circuit TV to monitor the mailbox area. 

I 

13 I I recall from your earlier description of the type 

i 

14 I of work you do, that that would be something you could do; 

15 i is that correct? 

16 A Uh-huh. 

17 Q Has there been any subsequent discussion? 

18 A He asked me for a price to install some 

19 equipment. I gave him a price. He seemed to indicate that 

20 was too expensive, and he wanted to know if we would rent or 

21 lease the equipment on a short-term basis, and I said, no we 

22 would not do that. So that ended the conversation in regard 



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to that equipment. 



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Q Going back to my question about the reason why his 
associate would have needed this equipment, you said there 
had been some vandalism, some damage to the mailbox. In the 
context of your discussion with Mr. Robinette on this point, 
did you sense it was anything other than the kind of home 
security problems the average citizen in the Washington area 
would have? 

A No, because we have as lot of customers who ask 
for that type of stuff, because they do have vandalism or 
break-ins occur, where they want to protect themselves for 
that reason, particularly those in the higher income 
brackets that live in places like Great Falls and Potomac. 

Is this a home you would classify as — at the 
time you did it, knowing nothing else, that it would have 
belonged to someone in an upper income bracket? 

A No. Decidedly not. I would say the home, except 
for its location — it was located in a fairly good 
neighborhood, but the house itself was old, and it was not 
kept in a very good state or order. 

A modest house? 

A Very modest and not kept up very well. 



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Q Can you think of anything else Mr. Robinette said 
to you on any of these occasions, which would have any 
relevance to any of the things we've talked about? 

A No. And as things have transpired, the fact that 
Colonel North is the owner of the house, even if he had told 
me at the time, it would not have meant anything to me, but 
he did not indicate anything out of the ordinary, other 
than it was a normal security thing that he was doing for a 
friend. 

Did he indicate that he had done any other favors 
for this associate? 

A No, he did not. 

Did he indicate that he had done any favors for 
any other associates, that in any way he did this for lots 
of his frienda, lots of his associates, whatever? 

A No, he did not. 

The name, "Oliver North," never came up in your 
discussions with Mr. Robinette? 

A Absolutely not. 

Did the name, John Poindexter, ever come up? 

A No. 
■ Q Robert McFai 



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Q None of the names you and I have seen in the news 
the last few months, relating to these matters? 

A No, in fact, the only name that I associated with 
this is Mr. Robinette. Now one of the names that has 
subsequently come out, I know, because of the place that I 
used to work. General Secord. He was still on active 
duty. The company I worked with did business with the Air 
Force, and I knew him from that. But outside of that, I had 
no knowledge of the other people. 

Have you done any other work, either before this 
job or after this job, for Mr. Robinette? 

A No. 

Do you know how he came to know you? 

A No, I do not. I assume that he just picked us out 
of the Yellow Pages. I have no idea. 

Q Other than the time period when Mr. Secord was on 
active duty, have you done any work for Richard Secord? 

A No. 

Q Have you done any work for Thomas Clines? 

A No. In fact, the first time I knew that name was 
on the subpoena. IliukB 

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Q Let me go back to Mr. Robinette's inquiries to you 
regarding possible work in the Middle East involving 
electronic devices on, around or in buildings, and so 
forth. • 

Did he say, at any point, what the nature of his 
business was? 

A Ho. But I assume that given the name of the 
company that he was in some sort of consulting — putting 
together deals type of thing. 

VJhat company name did he give you? 

A Glen Robinette & Associates. 

So wh^fi you sent a bill, that's to whom you sent 
it? 



Yes. 



Q When he talked about this and said that it would 
be in other countries, it would be in other parts of the 
world, which he was not at liberty to disclose the precise 
location of, when he said that personnel would have to have 
government security clearances, what went through your mind? 

A The implication that I arrived at was that it was 
probably some government type installations in the overseas 
areas, particularly since you would have to have U.S. 



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Government security clearance. 

Q Did you aslc hira who this work would be for? 

A No, I did not. 

Did you ask him if it were government-related or 
government-sponsored? 

A No, I did not. 

Q Did you ask him who any of the other parties would 
be? 

A No, I did not. I assumed that, given the way the 
man operated, that he was, in fact, what he turned out to 
be, an ex-CIA agent. 

Q I take it from what you've said, you have had 
dealings with the government? 




A Well, yes. A lot of our work is done for the 
Federal Government, by the nature of it. 



Was the mode of operation Mr. Robinette followed, 
consistent with what you had come to see and experience? 

A No, I would say it more closely followed what you 
read to be the mode of operation for their covert agents. 




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1 Let me ask you about any documents, paper, you 

2 have with you. 

3 Was there a purchase order written up when this 

4 first came in to your company? 

5 A Yes. I submitted to him a contract specifying 

6 what we would do and what the price would be. I signed it. 

7 He was accepting that and giving us the authority to 

8 proceed, signed it and returned it. 

9 MR. SAXON: Let me ask you to mark this as 

I 

10 Deposition Exhibit 1. 

11 This is denominated as a proposal from ADS 

12 Automatic Door Specialists, which at the bottom, evidences 

13 acceptance of the proposal and bears the signatures, as 

14 ; Mr. Chatham said, of himself and Mr. Robinette. 
I 

15 i (Exhibit 1 identified.) 

16 (A pause. ) 

17 THE WITNESS: The difference in amount of the 

18 original $2154 and the $2173 that we billed him was the cost 

19 for an additional transmitter for the automobile. 

20 BY MR. SAXON: 

21 Okay. Thank you. 

22 Let me ask if you have other documents which you 



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wish to provide us 



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A At the time that we concluded the work, I wrote a 
note to him thanking him — as a letter of transmittal for 
an invoice and thanking him for the business. That is the 
letter. This is a copy of the invoice that was attached to 
it. 

MR. SAXON: Let me have you mark as Exhibit 2, the 
letter from Mr. Chatham to Mr. Robinette on the letterhead 
of Automatic Door Specialists, which as Mr. Chatham has just 
told us, attaches an invoice and thanks him for the 
business. 

(Exhibit 2 identified.) 

. (A pause. ) 

MR. SAXON: Let me give you, for Exhibit 3, the 
actual invoice under the name Automatic Door Specialists, a 
job invoice, a particular number. Evidences the work done, 
the total amount of $2173, and I see where, as that is 
dated, typed in "7/7/86," written at the bottom is a 
notation that on 7/10/36, this was paid in cash. 

(Exhibit 3 identified.) 

BY MR. SAXON: 
Mr. Chatham, when you received the payment in 



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1 OAVbw 1 cash, did you have this invoice with you, and was that 

2 notation made then or was it made later? 

3 A That was made by the lady that does our 

4 bookkeeping in the office. 

5 Based on your having told here? 

6 A Yes. I brought back the case. I have a deposit 

7 slip, where we deposited it in the bank the same day. 
i 

8 I MR. SAXON: We will mark as Deposition Exhibit 4, 

! 

9 ! a deposit ticket with Citizens Bank of Maryland, in the 

10 amount of $rN.73, which is the precise amount of the 

11 invoice, apparently the amount of cash conveyed, and the 

12 deposit ticket dated July 10, 1986. 

I 

13 (Exhibit 4 identified.) 

il 

14 BY MR. SAXON: 

15 Are there any other documents which you have? 

j 

16 I A No, I believe that's the ones that show how the 
I 

17 transaction occurred. 

13 Q Was there any subsequent correspondence, either in 

19 writing or communication by phone or otherwise from 

20 Mr. Robinette after your dinner meeting with him in Silver 

21 Spring at the restaurant at which he gave you the cash? 

22 A The only discussions after that were telephone 



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conversations about things that were not working correctly 
on the gate. 

Q Pertaining to the service? 

A Pertaining to the service of the gate. 

Q That was the only contact? 

A That's the only other contact. 

Q When you were at the North residence, what we now 
know and assume to be the North residence or when any of 
your technicians doing the installation or service were 
there, did you observe anything, or did they report their 
observance of anything which, in any way, was unusual abut 
the home, its contents, et cetera? 

A No. Well, the technicians. I was never in the 
house myself, only on the outside. 

The technicians who installed the equipment were 
in the house, because they had to install the intercom 
system and the wiring through the house. Their comment was 
that the house was in a very unkempt condition, particularly 
the basement area, where they had five or six cats running 
around with no litter box. 

That is the sura total of their connents about the 



house. 



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Q No Statements, however, on their part about 
observing anything pertaining to national security — 
computers, documents, anything that would suggest, as we now 
know and assume that this was the home of Colonel Oliver 
North? 

A No. 

Since this story broke and you were contacted last 
week by CBS News, the story pertaining to you involvement, 
your company's involvement of Automatic Door, have you heard 
from anything other than our committee and the Washington 
Post about this matter? 

A The only people I have talked to about it was this 
committee, CBS News, specifically a man by the name of 
Howard Rosenberg, and the Washington Post, George Lardner — 
L-a-r-d-n-e-r. I have not talked to him, specifically. He 
called and left a message, and I tried to call him back. 
Never could get ahold of him. 

You have not heard from anyone representing 
Mr. Robinette in a legal or other capacity within the last 
week or so? 

A No. 

Let me back up and ask you, what is the period of 



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1 your employment with Automatic Door? 

2 A I've been there since April 15, 1985. 

3 Since your employment by Automatic Door, have you 

4 had occasion to do any work for any of the individuals or 

5 entities names and listed in the attachment sent you, 
I 

6 I Attachment A? That would be in addition to Mr. Robinette, 

1 

7 j Richard Secord, Thomas Clines or Oliver North. 

3 I A No. 

9 ' 1 would add to that Edwin Wilson. 

1 

10 A No. 

11 Q In your employment prior to Automatic Door, who 

12 were you employed with? 

13 I A A company called the BOM Corporation. It's in 
I 

14 McLean, Virginia. 
j 

15 What was the period of your employment there? 
! 

16 i A From June 3, 1977, until March 18, 1985. 

17 Was it a similar kind of work? 

18 A No. They are what is termed a "Beltway bandit" 

19 type company. We did primarily U.S. Government contract 

20 work and primarily in the defense arena. The part of the 

21 company that I worked was involved in two things. Large 

22 dollar multiyear contracts with U.S. Government agencies and 




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with foreign defense establishments, specifically, Saudi 
Arabia, the Republic of China, the Kingdom of Kuwait, Egypt, 
other countries and with NATO. 

Q Let me ask you if, in your period of employment 
with BDM, you had occasion to do any work for Richard 
Secord . 

A With him, personally, no. VJith one of the 
commands that he was in charge of, yes. 

When he as an active duty officer? 

A Yes. 

What about Edwin Wilson? 

A No. My only knowledge of him was what I've heard 
in the press. 

What about Thomas Clines? 

A My only knowledge of him was the subpoena. 

Q VThat about Theodore Shacklay? 

A No. I never heard of that name. 

Vrt\at about John Singlaub? 

A Yes. I've heard General Singlaub'a name in 
reference to his being fired by the previous Administration 
and also his involvement with the operation in Nicaragua or 



Honduras. 



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But did you do any work for him while at BDM? 

A No. 

v;ith regard to all of the individuals I just 
named, while you may not have done any work for them at BDM, 
other than the way you've characterized it with General 
Secord, are you aware that BDM did any work for any of these 
individuals? 

A I would seriously doubt it. The only possibility 
would have been General Singlaub, and if we had, I don't 
know when it would have occurred, because I know he was in 
Korea before he was put out of the military, but the other 
people I seriously doubt 




(Discussion off the record.) 

BY MR. SAXON: 
I just have a couple of more questions, 
Mr. Chatham. 

When Mr. Robinatte told you that he was having 
this work done as a favor for an associate, did he make any 
statement at all as . to whether he expected hi<a associates to 
repay him or return the favor in any way? 

--,....,. ra 

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2350 02 15 UnULrtOOiiitii 29 

1 DAVbw 1 A No, he did not. I assumed that the money he 

2 ultimately paid me came from the associate. I had no reason 

3 to believe one way or the other that he, personally, was 

4 paying for it. 

5 Q That statement, referring to what you said earlier 

6 about Mr. Robinette's indicating his friend was too busy and 

7 didn't Icnow the kind of — 

8 A Right; uh-huh. 

9 Q Would you say, from the descriptions Mr. Robinette 

10 gave you of the kind of equipment that he wanted or would 

11 recommend or wanted to inquire about with regard to price, 

12 is it fair to say he seemed to be familiar with this kind of 

13 equipment? 

14 ! A Seemed to be; yes. I would say more familiar 

15 than the normal residential customer that will call you. 

16 Did you comment on his apparent knowledge in any 

17 way? 

13 A No. 

19 Q Did you say "You seem to have dealt with this 

20 equipment before"? 

21 A No. 

22 Q A final question. When you met him at the 



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2 DAVbw 1 restaurant and received the envelope, did you make any 

2 statement — either at that time, immediately prior or 

3 subsequent, did you inquire as to why he wanted ♦•.o go to a 

4 restaurant or a — 

5 A No, I did not. 

6 Did you make any comment as to whether it was kind 

7 of unusual? 

8 A No. 

9 Q And when he handed you the envelope, what did he 

10 say? How was that handled? 

11 A He handed me the envelope and asked me i£ I wanted 

12 to count it, and I said, no. I just put it in my pocket. 

13 I Q But when he handed you the envelope, he said, 

1 

14 i "This is the payment for your invoice"? 

15 A Right. 

16 And I assume you looked in the envelope and saw 

17 that it had cash in it? 

18 A Money; yes. And I put it in my pocket. 

19 Q Did you make any corament? 

20 A No. 

21 Q You didn't say, "It's kind of unusual," or "Why 

22 are you paying in cash"? 



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A No, I did not. 

MR. SAXON: Mr. Chatham, I want to thank you again 
for appearing, for providing U3 these documents, for what 
seems to me to be your apparent willingness to tell us 
everything you know. 

This has been quite helpful. Thank you. 
(Whereupon, at 2:50 p.m., the taking of the 
deposition was concluded. 

(Signature waived.) 





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CERTiFiaMre -^r- fcorAn y poblic & rhporter 



I, DAVID L. HOFFMAN the officer before whom 
the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify 
that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 
the testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand 
and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under 
mv direction; that said deposition is a true record 
of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 
any of the parties to the action in which this 
deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 
emploved by the parties hereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 



32 



Qti 

DJ 
My Commission Expires ^[laho 



^- 

Notary Public in and fai 
District of Columbi^/'/ 




l^lf-^rn 



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BOYUM 
MILTON 



DEPOSITION 







ci<% AiK hfi^ftjjchf cHie^ 



Friday, Jub* 19, 1987 

U.S. House of Representatives, 

Select COMBlttee to Investigate Covert 

Aras TrsAsactlons with Iran, 
Nashlngtofl, D. C. 



Ibe CoMBlttee set, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m.. 
In Rooa 2226, Rayburn Boose Office Building, Pat Carone 
presiding. 

On behalf of 'the Bouse Select Coasuttee: Pat Carome. 

On b^alf of the Senate Select CosBittee: Tiaothy 
Noodcock . 

On behalf of the Witness: Phyllis Provost McNeil 
and Rhonda N. Hughes, Central Intelligence Agency. 



?»<mt 



/vmum 

ofLO. 12»l 
tf I. hpr. ■*■! SMMHy CmMI 



UNCUSSIFIED 




a^Afo^^H 



2Aop3 



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THE WITNESS I I would llKc to start just to say 
that I don't have any records. I am working on memory, so 
what I say Is going to be the best of my recollection, but 
I can't guarantee anything. I'll do my best. 
Whereupon, 



was called as a witness and, having been previously duly 
sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF 
THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
. BY MR. CASOME: 
Q All right. Just for the record, 
actually, first, could you spell your name? I have never 
been quite sure how you spell it. 
A 

Q Just for the record, my name is Patrick Carome. 
I am a staff counsel on the House Select Committee to 
Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran. Our 
committee has been established pursuant to a House Resolu- 
tion and we have rules. 

The CIA has previously been given copies of these 
rules. I am handing you a copy of each of those for you to 
have if you would like them. 

Our committee has been set up to look into, as 
its name suggests, covert arms transactions with Iran. 



IMAMIEIL 



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We are also lookM^ lK^Bia€^ers involving support for the 
contras. 

There is a parallel Senate connnittee. It may 
be that a Senate laviryer like me will come and they may have 
questions for you as well. 

I would like to begin by asking you to state 
your current position with the Central Intelligence 
Agency, and why don't we just start there. 

A I am assigned from the Directorate of Operations 




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to October of '86, I was 
assigned to headquarters here in Washington and was chief 
°^i^H^m|HHL which the reason 

You were bf^^Hj^H^^m during that 
entire stretch of time, is that right? 

A October, '84, to October, '86, two years, yes. 




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Q Please describe the nature of your job as chief 



A That is a broad question. 
air operation! 




To vhom difl you report in that position? 
A I reported to the chief of the — at that tine 
it was naMd^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^ I believe. 




Q Z see. 

A But quite often it was such a saall thinq, I 
would soMtiJMS go directly to the chief of the whole 



IMIASSIBHL 



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1) 



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dlviiion, which was — that was the chain of command as it 
was. 




Q Positions; why don't we start there. 
A I had a deputy which most of the time 




Q I take it that one of the activities of the 

'was to work with Agency proprietary companies 
in the airlines business; is that right? 

A Yes, we worked — they were part of us, as a 
matter of fact. They came in the chain of command under- 
neath you, yes. 

Q How did the air proprietaries fit in? 

A Well, essentially we would get — receive 
operational orders or plans or something from normally 
from an anea division and then come do%m to us and we 
would essentially task a proprietary to perform the air 



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"BWtlBSIllBT 

nlssion required. And it was fairly — they weren't 
necessarily involved in the planning but they were told 
what to do. 




BY NK. CAROKEi 

And I taJce it that one of those wasj 

is that right? 
A Correct. Yes. 

Nhat was the chain of connand between you and 
^^^^^^^in November, 1985? 

November, '85? I had an officer ,1 



who was running 




section, and from the 
it went dotm to an officei 

whose full-time job 
was to liaise with the proprietary.^ /iwCN 



V^Oj4 



That is I 



Yes, that is true 



is that right? 



IIHCLASSJIH 



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Q 

question. 



Z tak* it that it was — ~Ii¥~M withdraw that 



Has the propriatary point of contact batwaan^ \ 

and HH|^HH^^H|H? 
Momally, yas. 

Nhan you say nomally, what would ba tha — 
I could also bava diract contact if for soae 



wasn't thare, or, you know, it was not a 
strict construction but that would ba tha normal contact, 

And Z taka it tha^B^^^^H than was tha 
primary point of contact with tha paopla who wera actually 
at^^^^^m^^^H is that 

A Almost axclusivaly. 

Q And that it would ba a rara situation for someone 
to speak directly to someonej 
is that right? 

A Vary rare. Z can't think of an instance, but 
it is possible. 

Q 
a tj^^^^^^H wasl 

A To aiy knowledge, almost exclusively again. 

Q During 1985 and to your kxxwledge, how many 
times did a ^^^^^^H plane go to Zran? 

A Geez, Z — Z think several times, but Z'm not 




And the person who 



ealt with primarily 
is that right? 



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really sur*. 

Q Could you pl«as« t«ll mm th« tiaws that you 
raeall, a^aln speaking about 1985? 

A Tb* flight in quastion, of coursa, in November 
of 'tS. 

Q niat is one. Miait others are you aware of? 

A There may have been a flight — and I'm not 
really sure about this — a flight in August of '85, but it 
had no coamction «da(|^tsocver with what is in question. It 
was a lawnsrcial type flight. 

Z can't say that for sure becauae Z have never 
Been any docuaantation on that, but I was told that was 
the case and 1 won't question it. But Z have not personally 
seen it. 

Q He have been told about and have received records 
about a from I guess^^^^^^^^B to Tehran. 

A Z think that la the flight. 

Q In early August, 1985. 

A That is the one that probably took place. 

Q And this obviously i» not my chief area of 
inquiry, but were you aware of that flight at the time 
it was taking place? 

A Hell, this is a question that came up before 
and Z would say that if Z were in the office at the time, 
and I may have and Z may not have been, it %rould have come 



MIASSIEIEL 



800 




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mm 



1 through na, th« r«qu««t, and I would hav« takan it up to 

2 ny aupariora for authority to oparata tha flight. 

3 Q What you ara aaying ia that that ia tha way 

4 you would hava reapondad to that — 

5 A without quaation. 

6 Q But that you don't hava a apacific racollaction 

7 of doing that; ia that right? 

8 A Yaa, but Z %«on't aay it didn't happen bacauaa 

9 you can't inagina tha numbar of thinga that happen. But 
to it 'a a pretty aet procedure and it would never have gone 
i1 without that authority. 

12 Q Do you recall whether any contact waa made with 

13 Central Zntelligance Agency lawyara to look into legal 

14 queationa aurrounding a flight like that to Iran? 

15 A No, but nomally that would certainly be the 
lg procedure . 

Z take it that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bper forma both 

^0 at the time performed both coomerical flighta and non- 

^g commercial flighta on behalf of the United Statea Govern- 

20 menti ia that right? 

21 A Yea. 

22 Q And what were the rulea or undaratandinga 

23 about^^^^^^^^H ability to take on cooaercial flighta; 

24 were there any raatrictiona on tha typea of coaawrcial 

25 flighta that j|^^^^^| could handle? 




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A Yet, any flight of an unusual nature, a flight 
toH^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H for or 

thing of that sort would, the standing instructions %fere to, 
that it had to have approval from headquarters. That is 



the reason, but^^^^lwas actually] 
of his primary functions — 

MR. CABOME: Let's go off the record a second. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
MR. CARC»(E: Let's go back on the record. 
Could you read back the last question and 
answer . 

(The reporter read the record as requested.) 
BY MR. CAROHE: 
Q Okay. Would you finish that — you were 
describing what one of ^^B^H^^ primary functions were. 
What were you about to say? 
A That is really it. 
Q One of his primary functions was — 
A Was to coordinate to make sure the nature of the 
flight was reported to headquarters and the flight didn't 
operate without the aj^roval. 

Were there any restrictions on the nature of 
the cargo whichmHH^fcould carry without getting 
prior approval fron the Agency? 

A If it were soowthing gu,t>^f-JAp ordinary, that 



fere soowthing pu,t^-flf^lJu» oi 

wMSSL 



82-694 0-88-27 



802 



23 
24 
25 



ilRStt^B^T 



13 



1 would be reported, should be reported to headquarters, and 

2 we would have asked permission to do that. 

3 Now, you know this is kind of a — you have to 

4 picture this airline. It is sort of like a tramp freighter. 

5 Sort of plodding around from point to point, and you don't 

6 ask too many questions when you are doing this. The reason 

7 you don't ask questions is because you want the people to 

8 come to you for this type of business. 

9 Q When you say you don't ask too many questions, 

10 who is "you"? 

11 A The proprietary doesn't ask too many questions. 

12 Q About the cargo it is carrying? 

13 A Right . Because what you are doing is you are 

14 trying to establish your credibility with these people 

15 in the movement of cargoes. It is a highly competitive 
15 business. 

^7 Q But I take it that it is important to any cargo 

13 company to know the nature of the cargo it is carrying, 

19 isn't that right? 

20 A Yes . 

21 Q And you said that unusual cargo would prompt 
M a requirement to get in touch with headquarters . 

A Yes. 



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Q Do you place In the category of unusual cargo 
military weapons, amanents, et cetera? 

A Unusual-type amanents, I would say, yes. 

Q Would missiles be unusual-type armaments? 

A Yes, it would be. 

Q Would black powder be unusaal-type armaments? 

A Not really. 

Q Other than this August, 1985, flight 

[to Iran and the November, '85, flight, that is 
the prime reason we are here, are yo>u aware of any other 
flights byj^f^HHinto Iran in 1985? 

A I can't recall any. 

Q You can't be certain that there weren't others, 
though, is that right? 

A We are looking back along tine, but I don't 
think there were any others. '85 — this is '87, yes. 

Q I take It that you were aware of the nature of 
the cargo on the August, '85, fllght^^^^^^^^H to Iran, 
is that right? 

A No. 

Q You don't know trtiat the cargo was? 

A I don't recall the specifics of the flight. 
I told you that. The black powder business cane up, you 
know, in — when they were doing all the research^ you 



know, afterwards, 



UNCUSSIFIED 

IV^D QT?/'PI-'|' 



804 



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UWBI^flEF 



15 



1 (Exhibit No.^Bl was 

2 marked for identification.) 

3 THE WITNESS: That was 14, 15 months later. 

4 BY MR. CAROME: 

5 I^^^^^^^B I an placing before you tfhat has 

6 been marked as Exhibit 1. It is a mesnrandun dated 

7 August 26, 1985. I ask if you recognize what that document 
6 is. 
9 A I will — 

10 Q Just for the record, large portions of it have 
It been deleted. 

12 A No, I don't recognize what it is. 

13 Q It states, "Our 707 made the flight 
14'^^^^^^|to Tehran 13 August and" — 

A Is that an activity report? 

Q I believe it is. 

A C»i, okay. Yes, I do recognize it. 

Q And — 

A I presume I trould have seen that, but I don't 

20 specifically recall it. 

21 Q All right. 
It says that "the cargo was reported to be 

23 30-ton smokeless powder and detonators ( 

24 

Does that refresh your recollection as to what 



uwusimL 



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M* -*^ ic^^MiEffi^^^BfeZRET • v ^ 16 



23 

24 




1 had been carried on that flight? 

2 A By raadlng that, X presume that is correct, 

3 but — 

4 Q You don't have a — 

5 A It refreshes my recollection because I read it 

6 right here. 

7 Q You don't have an independent recollection of 

8 what that cargo was? 

9 A No. But I learned of the specific cargo, or 

10 I recall the specific cargo when we were — wher 

11 and everyone else was researching in November of when it 

12 would have been, November, '86. 

13 Q X see. X take it that %^en the — 

1-14' A I would not have recalled it unless I'd seen 

' 15 it. Because you got thousands of things, you know, many 

1Q thousands of things that happened in the meantime. But if 

17 that is in the activity report, that is fine. 
1g Q I take it that when the flights to Iran became 

19 public in November, '86, you were asked by someone to look 

2Q lnt(;^^^^^H|HVlnvolvement in covert flights to Iran, 

21 is that right? 

22 A I wasn't working inl 
Q You were not? 
A NO, sir. 



Mc Q But you were asked to provide some facts on the 



JIMliSSIflEDL 



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m 



:;:ffniti:<i 



1 subject, is that right? 

2 A Well, I gave testimony to our inspector general's 

3 staff, in a formal interview to the FBI, and testimony 

4 before the Senate — what do you call that? 

5 MS. HUGHES: SSCI . 

6 BY MR. CAROME: 

7 Q You have before you some handwritten notes. 

8 Can you tell me what those are? 

9 A Those are notes I made prior to — it would have 

10 been in early December, '86, prior to testifying before 

11 the Senate committee she just mentioned. 

12 Q And I take it you have used those notes to 

13 refresh your recollection — 

14 A That is all I have. 

15 Q — for today, is that right? 

16 A That is right. 

17 Q Cam we take a look at those notes? 

18 A Sure. 

19 MS. HUGHES: No. We will have to Object to 

20 that. We will have to process them as we process any 

21 requested document through the Agency. 

22 MR. CAROME: Let's go off the record for a 



second , 



(Discussion off the record.) 
MR. CAROME: Let's go back on the record. 



807 



13 



UNtt)tS8WffiET 



IS 



1 THE WITNESS: Help yourself. 

2 MR. CARONE: Just for the record, we have been 

3 given access to^^^^^^^^^^ handwritten notes and are taking 

4 a look at them. 

5 THE WITNESS: The notes were prepared in December 
of 1986 prior to testifying before the SSCI . Is that what 

7 it's called? 

8 MS. HUGHES: Yes. 

g MR. WOODCOCK. In drafting these notes, 

^Q ^^^^^^^^H| did you use any documents on that? 

11 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 

12 MR. WOODCOCK. You relied only on your memory 
as it was at the time; is that correct? 

1^ THE WITNESS: It was to give me some sort of 

IK chronological sequence in testifying. 

MR. WOODCOCK: But you created them only by 
reference to your memory; is that correct? 

THE WITNESS: That is correct. 

MR. WOODCOCK: Rave you since then had opportunity 
to check your memory against any documents that may have 
been created about that time? 

THE WITNESS: I have no desire to. 

MR. WOODCOCK: I understand that, but did you? 

THE WITNESS: No._ . . 

MR. WOODCOCK: Okay. 



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BY MR. CAROME: 

2 Q I think we will ask you some questions about 

3 these notes at a later point. 

4 What I would like to do now is turn our 

5 attention to the November, 1985, flight. Could you please 
5 tell me when you first heard about the need to perform the 
7 flight and what happened after that point? If you could 

g just narrate the story essentially. 

g A Sure. I received a call Friday afternpon, late 
•JO Friday afternoon, November — I don't know what the 
^1 actual date in November was, but that is a matter of 
^2 record, I am sure. 

MR. WOODCOCK: That would be 11/22. 
^^ THE WITNESS: Twenty-two November, that would 

<c be right, from Dewey Clarridge's office, who was at the 

time chief of European division saying he wanted to talk 






17 ^^^ 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 



MR. WOODCOCK: Whom you say you received a call 
from Dewey Clarridge's office, is that Dewey Clarridge 
himself? 

THE WITNESS: No, he wasn't that. It was just 
someone making the call. 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q His secretary? 
A No, it was someone sitting in up there, but — 



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1 Q Who wai that? 

2 A I don't really know — I 'b not really sure who 

3 it was, but it was xnonatarial, It was just relaying a, you 

4 know, "Mr. Clarridge wants to see you." 

5 Q Then what happened? 

8 A I went up to his office, cigar smoke and all 

7 that sort of stuff, if you know him, and he said that we 

3 had a very sensitive mission in the Middle East and we need 

9 a 747 aircraft right away and of course you don't pull 747 
fO aircraft out of the sky, particularly into the Middle East, 
^^ and so I said, 'Nell, we'll see what we can do," and I 

<)2 went back down and very quickly, and in conferring with 

^3 I i^^H|^|B we very quickly determined that it was highly 



unlikely that it would be possible to get a connercial 747 
for lots of reasons, insurance,- war zones, you know, things 
like that. You just don't charter an aircraft into the 
Middle East without a lot of preparation. 

So we went back up and said, "Look, we can't do 
this, Dewey, but we might be able to get a 707 from our 
'proprietary." 

He gave me some cargo dimensions and we checked 
to see if that type — if that size cargo would fit on a 
707 and then sort of closed for the day. I kind of thought 
it would go away as these things usually do, these sudden 
requests. 






SIO 



Mi^^ 



1 Th«n ttv« n«\t aorning 1 cmmm in and 

i Vh«n you ••) *c&b« in,* ca*m sn t^ 

4 A <»»* \z\lc t^• ci{\c». \nJ unfortunately I forg«t 

5 how I ^ot tN« wv^rd ^ut C>#»ir«y *«• kind of •ittln^ th«r« 

6 waiting foj •• up in hi» offio* and with hi.« in th« offic* 

7 w^r« Nottl^ a ^ntlw»«n by th« na»« o< All«n. 

8 C Khat i* h\» fiict ni 

9 A vharl** Allen. 
X) C *11 riflht. 

Tt A .VnJ a t>,ird person wt>o« I don't know. 

t2 C 'iou did not rrco^nlie tb« p«r»on at th« ti 

tS A >»o 

14 w -Vrtd j-ou have r»ot »ino« l«arr>*d who that wa»? 

^ A 1 have aaJc*d. B« hai a d«for-»«d &aoX . I've ■••n 

^ hiJB around th« A^enc^- but I iu»t don't ltr>ow hui . I think 



h« \» tYcm tA« CI tid«. 

C *?>d — • 

^ AS* didn't ••«■ to play a rol*, but h« was th«r«. 

«Q C And have you ever heard hia najs* or l«arn«d his 

A No. 

23 FlMts« continue . 

2^ HS. l*XCOCCX: >r you Itnow wbc hs is? 

KS . E;V;aESi I hav-« rto id««. 



17 
10 



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mumiL 



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1 MS. MCNEIL ! I don't knov who h* it cither. 

2 MS. Btx:H£Si I don't icnow •/>'/ deforMd-back 

3 p«opl*. 

4 BY MP. CAROMZ: 

5 JuBt ao w« have • tens* of tl»« frwM here, what 

6 tiJB« was it that you went up to this aweting? 

7 A About 10:30 In the norning. 
If you could continue the atory frcai there. 

9 A Yes. Initially, the flight was auppcaed to 90 

I^^^^^^^Hto 

11 MR. MOOOCOCX: VTho ia telling you thia? 

12 THE WITNESS: Well, thit i> Dewey, but they are 

13 all sort of discuasii>g it. A lot of confusion. 

14 And soneti*e during the course of the early 

15 afternoon, I would aay, it cane out that the final dasti- 
1g nation was to be Tehran and I jjaaediately realized that 
1^ we were dealing with a type of flight which would require 
1g approval way abc/e ae and I asked D«wey if he had approval 
ig fro* the director of operationa. And he said the director 
2Q of operations was out of town and he would get in touch 

2) with the acting deputy — the acting director of operations, 

22 MR. MOOOCOCK: I don't want to lose you here, but 

we have to be careful to keep events saparata. As I under- 
stand yo'or testimony, when you first go into Clarridge's 
office approxiaataly 10:30, the group of people that you 



mmiSL 



812 



25 





23 



1 deacrlbed was pr«s«nt and aonc Infomation was given to 

2 you aboutj^^^^^^^BTel Aviv and then I think you testified 

3 that later that afternoon, you learned that Tehran Was the 

4 ultimate destination; is that correct? 

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

6 MR. WOODCOCK: All right. What I would like you 

7 to do is if you could tell us first what happens in the 

8 morning meeting and then what happens after you learn that 

9 Tehran is the final destination. 

10 THE WITNESS: In the morning meeting there was 

11 just a lot of confusion going on. They are trying to, you 

12 know, there is a problem transiting^^^^^^^^Hthey 

13 decided they are going to go through Tel Aviv and then at 

14 some point during this timte, which was roughly from 10:30 

15 to 2:00 in the afternoon, it came out that the final 

15 destination was — through little bits and pieces coming 
out all the time — was to be Tehran. 
BY MR. CAROME: 
^g Q Let me try to understemd the scene. Are you 

20 spending that morning and early afternoon actually in 

21 Mr. Clarridge's office? 
A In and out of Clarridge's office and I am just 

sort of sitting in the corner while they sort of get . 
24 things straightened out. 

Q And whAt JfA^ the^onf usion over that morning? 




lEL 



813 



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19 



umefssM^ 



24 



1 A Lot* of confusion. They — it was obvious that 

2 this thing had been put together very quickly. 

3 Why was that obvious? 

4 A Because they were trying to pull pieces together. 

5 That is just a speculation on my part, but it certainly did 

6 not appear to be something that was well planned. It is 

7 a sort of thing that was thrown together, it appeared to 

8 me, at the last minute, 
g Q I taXe it there were cables being sent back and 

10 forth? 

11 A I didn't see any cables. 

12 Q You saw no cables? 

13 A NO. 

14 Q Here you going back and forth between Mr. 

15 Clarridge's office <^<1 jj^^H^^IB'^ ^^'^ time? 

16 A Yes. 
yf Q How far apart are those t%ro places? 



A Ten minutes. 

Q How many trips do you think you made back and 
2Q forth that morning? 

M A I have no idea, but I spent a good part of the 
M morning in his office and a good part of the afternoon 
M actually. 

Q And was North there the whole time? 

A I think so, just about the i^ole time. 



KASML 



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'WfelSHBffT 



25 



1 Was Allen th«r« the whole tiae? 

2 A Just about the whole time. 

3 Q Maa this person with a back problem there the 

4 whole time as well? 

5 A In and out. 

6 Q Did anyone else come in and out during that day? 

7 A I don't specifically recall; but not for a long 

8 period of time. 

9 Why don't you pick up the story there, I guess at 

10 noontime or whatever, when the siibject of possibly going 

11 to Tehran comes up and tell us what happened from there? 

12 A I was concerned because I realized that this has 

13 more than just a normal-type flight overtones, so I wanted' 

14 to make sure that we had the right authority within the 

15 directorate of operations. 

18 Q What did Clarridge do on the subject of DO or 

17 AODO approval? 

18 , A I asked him a second time and later on, and he 

^g said, "Yes, I do have ADO approval." Frankly, that was my- 

20 primary concern. 

21 Q Who was the ADDO at that tiae? 

22 A Juchniewicz . 

23 Q And then irtiat happened? 

24 A Arrangements were — I was conferring all the 
time with 






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Q Waa^^^^^^^^ In^^^^^^^^kon Saturday? 

A He was mostly down a^^^^^^^^B yes. 

He was in that whole day? 

A No, I don't know how long. But he was there and 
then he was at ome type thing, but we were talking by tele- 
phone. That — at one point I might add, since it is on 
my notes here, I guess, that a call was made tol 

Do you know what tine that call was made 

A Sonetime in midday roughly 
Q Who made the call? 

A Clarridge, because they wanted to use, consider 
^as a transit point for the aircraft. 

WOODCOCK: Do you know who he was calling 





WITNESS: I think he was calling 

but I wasn't part of the conversation. 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Do you know what response he got? 
A No, I was just sitting in the corner. But we 
didn't go^^^^^^H^H so it must not have been positive. 
Then I sort of went hone and I tried to reach my innediate 
boss, ^^^^^^1 and he had just taken over. 



UNCLilSSIFIED 



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Q What tin* did you go hoiM? 

A Z went hone around 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon. 

When you got home — 

A Give or take a couple hours. I didn't keep a log, 
obviously. 

MR. WOODCOCK: When you left North, Allen, and 
the fellow with the deformed back, they and Clarrldge 
were still there? 

THE WITNESS: I don't know how many, people were 
still there, but Clarridge was still there. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

And North was still there? 

A Z can't say, sir. 

And w**HH[B^9 still there when you left? 

A Z can't say that specifically. I would think he 
probably went hone, but Z don't know. 

Q I think you were about to tell us when you got 
home you attempted to make a phone call tc 
is that right? 

A Yes, Z tried to reach him a number of times 
because I didn't want him to be sturprised. People don't like 
to be surprised by things, z was not able to, because he 
just moved in and he was staying with a relative, and it was 
just one of those things. 

Sunday morning Z was able to rsach the head of the 



llNfiLAS.«IL 



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d iv i s ion ,^^^^^^^H boss , 

Q What tine was that? 

A That was about 10:00 or 11:00 o'clock Sunday 
morning. 

Q And what did you say to him and what did he say 
to you in that conversation? 

A He had exactly the thoughts I had. I told him 
of the flight, and he said, "Well, was the DO informed," 
and 1 said, "The ADO has been infmcd," and he was 
relieved. 

And sacondly, we talked about the safety and 
security of the flight. 

Q What did you tell him about the flight? 
A 1, you know, outlined the fact that it would be 
going into Tehran and obviously was going to be — there were 
some safety concerns, primarily because of the — it is hard 
to tell, you know, the reaction of the Iranians, and we 
were — we discussed that, obviously, and that was 
essentially it. 

Q What did you tell him about what the flight was 
doing? 

A I told him that it was on a sensitive mission into 

Tehran . 

Q What did you say the flight was carrying? 



Nothing . 



miissm 



818 



MIfltiffilBPF 



29 



1 Q At that point, did you know what the flight was 

2 carrying? 

3 A No. 

4 Q What had you been told about the cargo? 

5 A Just the dimensions of the cargo, and you don't 

6 ask unnecessary questions when it comes out of the White 

7 House. I presume it was something sensitive, obviously; 

8 they wou'.dn't be doing it otherwise. 

9 Q Had you been told that the cargo was' oil drilling 

10 equipment? 

11 A No, I had not, as a matter of fact. 

12 Again, I want to say that I am working on memory, 

13 and, you know, I — 

14 A Just so we have a clear idea of what your 

15 testimony is, I take it that you have a firm recollection 

16 that you didn't know anything about the equipment on that 

17 Saturday and Sunday? 

18 A That is right. 

19 Q Other than the weight and dimensions, is that 

20 right? 

21 A That is right. 

22 Q You have a firm recollection of that. 

23 A I have a firm recollection of that. 

24 Q Why don ' t you — 

25 A But J^if^Vkmt IqO'iMX^fL.OI^ti^t. I would have 










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^REF 



30 



focused on ■omethlng if we were carrying soinething that 
were a hazard to the aircraft or something like that — then 
I would have focused on it, but I wouldn't have focused on 
something that tiouldn't have been. 

Q We are going to end up going back and asking you 
particular questions, but it might be helpful to get the 
bulk of the story out. 

A Sure. 

Q You talked — what was the upshot of the 
conversation witt^^^^Hthat morning? 

A Be thanked me for briefing him, essentially. 

Q And that was singly a question of bringing him 
up to speed on what was happening? 

A Yes, because I didn't %Ant him to get a call from 
somebody saying, hey, this is happening — people don't like 
that. 

Plus, X wanted to make sure that my immediate 
suorior was a«rare. 

Q What happened next? 

A I essentially went home, and there were a lot of 
phone calls — 

Q Just to be clear, did you go into work on that 
Sunday? 

A I went In Sunday morning, because I tns trying to 



track dO' 






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wu^w 



31 



And is that where you called him from? 

A No. He came In to check the latest cables. It 
was a hot weekend. There was something else going on that 
weekend, but I don't recall. 

Q So, you saw^^^H that day? 

A I saw^^^^Binhis office, yes, that Sunday 
morning. 

Q Did you do anything else in the office that 
Sunday morning? 

A I don't recall anything else. 

Q Did you see Clarridge? 

A No, I think I talked to Clarridge on the 
telephone, but — 

Q Where was he? 

A I think he was probably at home. 

Q Did you see North? 

A No. 

Q Did you talk to North? 

A No. 

Q What else happened that Sunday? 

A That is essentially it. There were a lot of phone 
calls back and forth, and essentially, the details of the 
flight were ironed out. 

Who %fere the phone calls bet%raen? 






I know of , I talked , . 



821 



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ifflP 



32 



to D«w«y a number of tines, juet ironing out the details of 
the flight. 

Q And what were the details being ironed out? 

A Well, as I recall, I think the flight departed 
•^^l Aviv ^^^^^^^^^B probably sometime on Sunday, and then 
departed ^I^^^^^^H^^^^^H^oi^ Tehran 
sometime Sunday evening. 

Q Some of those phone calls were while you were at 
headquarters, and some of those phone calls were while you 
were at home; is that right? 

A A large majority of them were while I %#as at 
home. 




Q 

matter? 
A 

A 
Q 



What happened the rest of the day Sunday on this 



Nothing. 

And then what happened next? 

The flight took place. 



822 



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respect to this flight? 

A As regards myself? Essentially nothing. We were 
very relieved. I think we knew probably Monday afternoon 
that the flight had been successfully completed and the 
aircraft was back, and that was about it, as I recall. 

It was another page in history, and you go on to 
the next thing. 

Q Why don't we go back over this with specific 
questions? 

A Okay. 

Q In the first phone call from Clarridge on 
Friday afternoon, what did Clarridge say needed to be done? 

A He didn't say anything. He said it to me in his 
office. 

Q He brought you up to his office? 

A Yes. 

Q And what did he say needed to be done? 

A There was a very sensitive mission in the Middle 
East, and I think he said he had just come back from the 
White House, and he needed a 747. 

Q Did he say who he had been in touch with at the 
White House? 

A No. 

Q Did he mention the National Security Council? 

A I don't know. 



UNCUSSinED 



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iiijjBSswaiF 



34 



Q Did he say why the mission was sensitive? 

A No. 

Q Did he say what — I take it he said that some 
cargo needed to be moved from one place to another; is that 
right? 

A That is right. 

Q Did he say what the point of origin was of the 
cargo? 

A No, not at that time. 

Q Did he say the destination at that time? 

A No. 

Q You just knew that either the origin or 
destination would involve the Middle East; is that right? 

A Middle East, which meant complications. 

Q But he didn't mention Iran, did he? 

A Not at that time, as I recall. 

Q And did he mention the fact that all of this was 
to be done in connection with an effort to get hostages 
out? 

A No. 

Q How long did that first conversation of 
Mr. Clarridge's office last? 



A On Friday? 



Q Yes. 



A Five minutes, maybe. 



(INCUSSIFIED 



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MiffiiW 



35 



Naa anyone else pressnt? 

A I don't think so, but I don't specifically recall. 

Q Did — just so it is clear, when you start to 
deal with a division chief like that, do you have any 
requirements to check with your direct superiors before you 
start dealing with someone like Mr. Clarridge? 

A It depends on the circumstances. There is no 
requirement to. If there is soawthing firm, I probably 
would. I think I probably tried to get a hold of my office, 
but on Friday it was very nebulous. As I said, I kind of - 
based on my experience, thought it %«ould go away overnight. 
They usually do. 

Q Did you make any efforts or ^i-^lf^^K^^^M make 
any efforts that Friday to try to locate a suitable 747? 

A You know, I am not sure. I think we might have 
made a half-hearted effort and then said, hey, they are 
never going to rent this to us because of insurance and all 
that sort of stuff, and we didn't have specifics of the 
mission. 

You kiK>w, I can't say that specifically, because 
I just don't know. But it %iras just a passing thing. 

Q But I take it that Clarridge 's first question to 
you in that meeting was, "Find us • 747," is that right? 

A That is true. 

Q D44J¥^J'Vft ^y^tlMaMtere of the cargo in that 



•f 




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conversation? 



mmr 



36 



A No. No. 

Q Did he tell you the dimensions? 

A Yes, the dimensions, but where we went back and mad* 
the suggestion that we could use a 707, which is a smaller 

airplane, as you know. 

Q Whose suggestion was that? 

A To use the 747? 

Q To use a 7 07. 

A Ours 




Q So, I take it — did you, before going back to 
Clarridge with the 707 selection, find out the 
availability of the^^^^^^H plane or planes? 

A I don't know the sequence, but, yes, somewhere 
in there we obviously checked on the availability. 

Q And I take it you went back and had a second 
meeting with Mr. Clarridge that Friday evening: is that 
right? 

A Either that or a phone call, I don't remember 



which. 



TTODSSirjr: 



707 %K>uld 



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toe adequate; la that right? 

A Yea, yea. 

Q What happened In that phone call? 

A I don't think there waa a firm deciaion made. 
There might have been, might have been. 

Q la it your recollection that that was the last 
thing that happened that Friday, vaa you suggested the 
707 and went home? 

A Yea. There could have been aome phone calls 
Friday evening, but I just don't recall. The real 
specif ica do not begin until Saturday morning. And there 
alao could have been some pre-planning about pre-positioning 
the aircraft, but I cim't recall that. I didn't do that 
personally. 

Q Could you mark that as Exhibit 2? 

(The document marked Exhibit No .^^^2 follows:) 

••••••••••COMMITTEE INSERT*^^^*^^*^^ 

Q j^^^^^^^^^^B I show you what has been marked as 
Exhibit 2. We know from a previous deposition which^we have 
done that that is the handvnritten notes oi 
made atarting that Friday on November 22. 

It says that 1600 houra — that ia, I gather. 



4:00 p.m. — 



4:00 p.m. 



^m 




vailability of 



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bulk 707s to mov* high priority cargo, and there are 
weights and dimensions. 

A That would have been the call on Friday, sure. 

Q If you look further do%m that page, there is a 
tine. It is hard to read, but I believe that it is 1730 to 
1800, which would be 5:30 to 6:00 o'clock that evening — 
finally, approval was given, and I was advised that 
Richard Copp %«ould be contacting^^^^^^^^ about 2000 
hours. This did happen. 

What these notes seen to suggest is that a final 
decision was made that Friday evening to bring the 
plane into it and put it in contact with Richard Copp. 

Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 
or not more happened that Friday evening? 

A I have no problems with that. That is probably 
the case. 

Q So — 

A Yes. 

Q So, you believe that that is the %ray it 
transpired, then? D^ 

A Hell, can't question if those are^^^^^^^H 
notes — I have no problems with that. It was either Friday 
night or Saturday morning, and as I said, the aircraft had 
to be pre-positioned, so it could well have been. I have 
no problems with th 



"CHClASSinED 



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«l«iHF 



39 



Did you talk tc 



that Friday? 



but, again, I can't be lure about that. 

PO 
Someone apparently adviae^^^^^^Hftthat a 




A I don't think I personally did. I think it was 
probablyP 


Mr. Copp would be contacting^^^^^^^^^Do you know where 
that information came from? 

A Yes, I have that right in my notes here. That 
came from Dewey, but I am a little confused on the time 
sequence here. 

Q You are not sure whether it was Friday evening or 
Saturday morning; is that right? 

A Yes, yes. I would have thought it was Saturday 
morning, to be honest with you. 

Q But you do recall Mr. Clarridge providing the Copp 
name; is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q And — 

A I am really not sure whether Clarridge provided 
it or North provided it. It was one of the two. That is 
the reason I think it was Saturday morning. But it could 
have been Friday, you know. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



nn^^i^ C'l^^^^^^ 



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BY »W. 




40 



Do you recall vh«th«r on that Friday evening there 
was any attempt to check whether there was 00 or AOOO 
approval for this activity? 

A I asked Clarridge. 

Q I am speaking particularly of Friday evening. 

A Friday evening, I don't think so. Because, 
understand a flight is a very nebulous thing, and these thing 
happen all the time. They usually don't come to pass. 

Q QLd you know on Friday evening North was involved? 

A No. 

Q The first you know of that aspect of the operation? 

A I knew it came out of the White House, but you have 
to understand Dewey. Everything is a big deal. 

Q Do you recall any discussions on that Friday about 
how the mission was to be financed? 

A No. 

Q No discussion about who was to pay! 
do the mission? 

(Witness shaking head.) 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q You are shaking your head. 

A I am sorry, to the best of my knowledge, that was 
not discussed. It could have been. It doesn't stick in my 



mind. 



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41 



Q It appears that by the time Friday avanlng was up 
that a firm decision had been made to have^^^^^^^Hperform 
this flight. 

A Well , a fim decision had been made to jpreposition 
the aircraft, if indeed those notes ofj^^^^^^^^^are 
correct. 

MR. CAROME: Could you mark this as our next 



exhibit. 



for 



(The document was marked as Exhibit NoJ 
Identification. ) 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q I am placing before you what has been marked as 
Exhibit 3. For the record, that is a memorandum dated 
November 30, 1985. Ne have been told that this is a report 
f ront^^^^^^^^H^^^^I to^^^^^^H on the November, 
flight to Iran. Have you seen that document before? 
A I don't think so. 

Q In the first paragraph or first section of that 
memorandum, it states that Copp had gotten in touch with him 
that evening . Did you know that evening that Copp had 
contacted^ 

A I don't know. 

Q It also states Copp told him that — 

MS. MC NEXLt Excuse me. Nhat evening? 
THE ¥11 



"Vntms\m 



4 



831 



mmsF 



42 

1 MR. CAROME: That is right. 

^ THE WITNESS: Z don't know, but I have no reason 

3 to doubt this. 

BY MR. CAROME: 

5 Q It also says Copp explained that three flights had 

6 to be done govemaent-to-govemnent from Tel Avivi 

7 Did you Icnow that that was the original plan on that Friday 

8 evening? 

9 A Nell, as I said, they were originally planning to 

10 go through j^^^^^^^H this was part of — whether I Icnew 

11 this Friday evening? I don't Icnow. 

12 Q When you say they were planning to go through 

13 ^^^^^^^ what do you mean? 

14 A ' Transit for refueling purposes on their way to 

15 wherever they were going. 

16 Q Nhat did you know that Friday evening about what 

17 the ultimate destination was? 

18 A Z didn't know. 

19 Q Did you know what the point of origin was? 

20 A I don't know. I don't think so. I an not sure. 

21 The final section of this part 1 of this Exhibit 3 

22 indicates thall|^|^HHB^Hquestioned whether the cargo 

23 that was described to hin by Mr. Copp was the sane as the 

24 cargo of aunitions that had been described to hin earlier. 

25 Were you aware ^^^IIAMfV*l'/VAf|rY|P ML** during that 



DNKKSlFlEr 



832 



BNKASKFtii' 



43 

1 weekend ^^a^|[^^||^^^^^| ^^^ raised the question of whether 

2 this cargo was ailitary equipment or munitions or armaments? 

3 A I don't think I was, but it is a normal question 

4 for him to raise because he is going to have to carry it on 

5 the airplane. 

6 Q That would be something IjBportant for him to know, 

7 right? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Isn't that something that would also be important 

10 for you to know, what the cargo would be? 

11 A At that point in time, I really wasn't concerned 

12 about it. I presumed it was sensitive cargo, I presumed it 

13 was very high priority. 

14 Q Is it your testimony that at the time, throughout 

15 the entire period, you never learned anything more about what 
IS the cargo was than its weight and dimensions, is that correct^ 
17 A That is correct. 

10 Q When did you first learn that the cargo was 

19 missiles? 

20 A I would say — well, first of all, I would like to 

21 say I wasn't focusing on that. I was more concerned about 

22 the details of the operation of the flight and, frankly, more 

23 concerned to make sure my superiors %fere aware of the flight 

24 which they were. I don't think that specifically we were 

25 ever informed of the exact, natj}i^e,^jiiL_KtUtt was on the 



f the exact na ty r«_flf_wha t 

MtUStt 




833 



UIVOL/IXXIHfn 

aircraft. 

Now, at some time, you know, a couple months later, 
I think, people generally assumed that is what the flight 
was; that is because of things that happened later on. 

What was that? 

A They shipped additional, the seune type of cargo at 
a later time. 

Q It wasn't until these later shiiHnents that there 
was any suggestion thatjit had been missiles on the November 
flight? 

A Not that 1 was aware of, but I wasn't focusing on 
it. I am «rarried about a thousand things at a time. You 
go from one operation to another, and that is finished. You 
know — your next question is probably, there was a meeting 
in, 1 think it was Mr. McMahon's office on Monday or Tuesday 
of the next week. 

Q Mhat do you know about that meeting? 

A I wasn't present. 

Q Do you know anything about that meeting? 

A No, I wasn't present. 

Q Had you ever been involved in an^^^^^^^H mission 
involving the Vfhite House before this time? 

A Not specifically. I don't think so, not that I 
can recall. 

Q Had you ever_H>t_Mji. ^Qgfcb A^tore? 




82-694 0-88-28 



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A Never net him. 

Q Did you know who he was? 

A Heard of him. 

Q You knew he was an official from the National 
Security Council, is that correct? 

A That is right. 

Q I take it this must have been a highly unusual 
event to have someone from the White House, NSC, at 
Clarridge's house working on a flight, is that right? 

A I presumed it was a very important flight obviously 

During the time you were together with Mr. Clarridg ! 
Mr. North and the others on that Saturday, wasn't there some 
discussion about what it was the flight was carrying? 

A Zf there was, I wasn't part of it. Bear in mind 
I wasn't focusing on that. 

Q If something was said about it in the room, you 
would havepeard it, right? 

A Probably. If I had been in the room. 

Q You were in the room for a good part of that day, 
right? 

A A good part of that day. 

Q Did you talk td^^^^at all on that Friday 
evening, the 22nd? 

A I don't recall. 

Q You alight have, but you don't remember? 






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PO 



I might have. 

Did you talk to^^^Hon Saturday? 

The primary contact on Friday was fron 

and I don't think I got involved, but it is 

PO 

Did you talk to^^^Hon Saturday? 
Possibly Saturday night, certainly on Sunday. 
I take it that essentially Mr. Clarridge was saying 
what needed to be done, and you were passing that information 




on, is that right? 



I was normally passing it on t 



and he 
who was passing it on to 



was passing it on ti 
the proprietary. 

Q Was it unusual for you to go into the office on 
that Saturday morning? Would you have gone in if it were 
not for this operation? 

A Maybe. I went in probably every second Saturday 

Q Did the subject of the plane possibly — let me 
rephrase that question. Was there any discussion at all 
over the weekend about the plane possibly going to Tabriz 
rather than Tehran? 

A That rings a bell. 

Q What do you recall about that? 

A I recall very vaguely that the original destination 
was discussed as Tabriz. That is, as a matter of fact, what 



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I 




I thought it yiatlSQUSaty-motuxxiaj^ 

Q Can you shed any light on the decision to go to 
Tehran instead of Tabriz? 

A No. 

Do you recall Tabriz coining up during the Saturday 
discussion? 

A Not specifically. But it probably did. 

Q You have a recollection then, as of Sunday morning, 
it was your understanding the destination was to be Tabriz, 
is that right? 

A Yes, only a recollection. But it does ring a bell. 

Q Do you know idio you would have gotten that informa- 
tion from? 

A Clarridge. 

Q I take it, the very notion of taking a 
plane into Iran was a very surprising and unusual event. Is 
that right? 

A I wouldn't call it surprising. I %K>uld call it 
out of the ordinary. 



Q Here you surprised at the time the U.S. Government 
would be putting a CIA proprietary plane into Iran? 

A I wasn't focusing on the policy. That is one reasoi 
I was very happy that the Acting Director of Operations ap- 
proved of the flight. I obviously wouldn't approve on my own 



UNCLmiaEL 



837 



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Q I ant looking at your handwritten notes, from 
December, 1986, and I see a reference here, "Call to 
Poindexter by North." Can you tell me what that refers to? 

A He made a call, and I can't say specifically it 
was Poindexter. He referred to him in terms I presumed he 
was. I gathered, and again I was a little bird sitting in 
the corner, that this was concerning getting his, his being 
the man I presumed but I didn't talk to him or hear his 
voice or anything, was Poindexter' s approval for the 
operation, for the flight. 

Q When did that call take place? 

A Sometime between 10:30 and 2:00 o'clock in the 
afternoon on Saturday, roughly. 

Q The reason you understood it to be Poindexter is 
North appeared to be talking to him in — 

A He referred to him in some kind of nautical terms. 

Q He said Admiral? 

A He might have said "the old man", or something like 
that. Again, I can't -- 

Q What did North say when he was on the phone with 

Poindexter? 

A I didn't specifically hear the conversation. Came 
off the phone saying "The old man goes along with it" , or 
something like that. 

Q And wha_t w«s_ it ^^^etf,«ftiii*k approval was being 




838 



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■ought for, do you know? 

A I presume for the flight. Nobody asked me. 1 am 
just sitting there. 

Q For the flight to Iran at that point? Was it 
clear the flight was to go to Iran? 

A It probably was at that point. I don't know the 
exact chronology. 

Q Referring to your handwritten notes, there are 
several points where there is a reference to a Off. 

A That is Dewey. 

Mr. Clarridge, is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q And then toward the top of the page, there is a 
reference that says "Saturday, 10:30 to 1400, DW's office." 
I take it that is the timeframe that you recollect being in 
Dewey Clarridge 's office that day, is that right? 

A Correct. 

Q Then a couple lines further down, it says "changed 
I to Tel Aviv." Do you know what that means? 

A Yes. The original transiting, according to the 
flight, was supposed to be 

Q Do you know what the original destination point was 
to be? 

A No. 

Q You understood it was the Middle East, is that 



nderstood it was the Middle 



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SO 

right? 

A Middle East, which would have made sense for re 
fueling purposes. 

Q Is it fair to say you thought the original plan 
was to fly a^^^^^^^p plane fro^^^^^| to some 
the Middle East? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you understand there was going to be one or 
|707s involved? 

A Originally there were supposed to be two. 

Q Originally they were supposed to fly fromj 
to a point in the Middle East, is that correct? 

A That is right. My \inderstanding, that is what I 
thought, yes. 

Q When did you get that understanding, Friday evening 
or Saturday morning? 

A I don't know. 

Q It was one or the other? 

A Yes. 

At some point, then, the destination or the 
origin point for the plane or planes to go to is Tel Aviv, 
is that right? 

A That is correct. 

Q So then the plan then becomes to send twi 
planes to Tel Aviv, is that correct? 



ICilSSIStBp 



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'SECRET 

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A Correct. 

Q Did you know where they were going to go from Tel 
Aviv? 

A Not until sometime on Saturday. 

Before the destination changed to Tehran, did you 
ever learn, was^^^^^Hever suggested as a possible destina- 
tion? 

A As a final destination? 

Yes. 

A I am not really sure. I don't think so. 

Was there some discussion of possibly flying from 
Tel Aviv t^^^^^H and then to a third point? 

A I am not sure. That could well be. But I am 
just — I just tried to reconstruct it. I remember it was 
switched frori^^^^^B because they had some sort of problems 
there. I don't know what they were. 

Q Then your notes say, "Then learned final dest. 
Tehran." I take it at some point you were told not only by 
Clarridge that the final destination was to be Tehran, is 
that right? 

A Right. Obviously, we had to be told, the crew had 
to know. 

I take it this was a very chaotic nioming? 

A A very confused morning. They honestly, in my 
opinion, somethlnq had been cooked up pretty quickly. That 







841 



mmm 



52 



ii the impretilon Z had. 

Destinations are changing, is that right? 

A Destinations were changing, we were called into 
it at the last minute, I gathered, because North couldn't 
come up with his own airplanes. 

Q Was there any discussion about whether there had 
been earlier chartered air companies that were going to be 
involved, dropped out, and that is whj^^^^^^^H was being 
yanked in? 

A Yes. There was discussion, indirect discussion, 
and they talked about — I don't know whether that is in my 
notes or not. We talked about, I hate to say it, but this 
is just from very vague recollection, that 
[or something like that. 

Q What did they say about that that was the original 
carrier? 

A I got the io^ression they were supposed to do the 
.job, but for one reason or another, they couldn't. This is 
just reading between the lines type thing. Obviously, we 
were called in because nobody else could do it it appeared. 

Q Did you know the number of pieces involved that 
needed to be moved? 

A I think he gave us the number of pieces. 

Q Does 80 sound like it may have been the number he 
gave you? 






842 



dr9-14 



Mffir 



53 



1 A Whatever the records ■tete".'^ I don't know. 

2 Q Does 80 sound like it is in the ball park? 

3 A I wouldn't want to guess. 

4 Q I believe the records indicate it was 80 

5 A Okay. I have no reason to doubt that, Z just don't 

6 know that. 

7 Q If I could draw your attention to the top section 

8 of the first page of Exhibit 2. It says ^^^f^^^H called 

9 requesting availability of bulk 707s to meet high priority 

10 cargo." Then it says, "80 pieces". 

11 A Fine. I have no problems with that. 

12 Q Do you recall whether or not there was an under- 

13 standing, either late Friday or early Saturday, about how 

14 many plane loads of cargo there was to be moved? 

15 A Well, I just finished reading this, so that is the 
^5 problem. 

17 When you say this, you are referring to Exhibit 2? 
19 A Yes. The notes, which I think you referred to 

19 something in there. If I recall, we positioned two air- 

20 crafts, and I think they were talking about three maybe. 

21 Q Three plane loads? 

22 A Yes. I could be wrong. 

23 Q There was certainly more cargo that could be fit 

24 on one plane, is that right? 

25 A That ,^ (he _ reason we were listing two planes. 





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Q It might have taken sore than two planes? 

A It night have. 

Q I take it the plan was originally, once 
got involved, was^^^^^^H would move all that cargo to 
wherever the White House and NSC people wanted it moved, is 
that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Who do you recall talking about — let me rephrase 
that question. We have surmised frcMn other sources the 
original charter company may have been a company by the name 

of^^mnj^^^mi 

A That is probably correct. 
Q Who do you recall mentionin 
that weekend? 

A It would have been either North or Dewey. 
Q If I am understanding you, you are saying they were 
being talked about in the context as the airline that had 
originally been contracted to do what^^^^^Hwas being 
asked to do, is that right? 

A That was my understanding. 

MS. McNEIL: Let's go off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
MR. CAROME: Let's go back on the record. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

have mentioned to XSii^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H — 



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Does that refresh your recollection that that was the cargo 
company that was mentioned during the weekend? 

A Certainly a name very similar to that. 

Q It was Clarridge, you recall, who mentioned a 
name similar to that? 

A I would think it was either Clarridge or North, but 
I can't say specifically. 

MR. WOODCOCK: You recall it was one or the other? 
THE WITNESS: It had to be one or the other. 
MR. WOODCOCK: It wasn't Charles Allen? 
THE WITNESS: That would be remote. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Do you specifically recall them saying this other 
company had been set up to do it and it fell through? 

A Not in specific words, but the context was that 
way, yes. 

Do you know when it was they had fallen through? 
Was it just recently they had dropped off? 

A I would judge very recently, but that is pure 
speculation. 

Q I take it what you would judge that from is the 

that^^^^^^^Hf an^^^^^^^^fwas 
last minute, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Durina that time, did North or Clarridge or anyone 



irina that time, did North or C 



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56 



•Is* say anything about efforts to get air traffic rights 



A It was discussed, they had a problem. 

Q What was said on that subject? 

A Specifically, I don't recall. I wasn't part of it. 
The original plan had been to us^^^^^H and they couldn't 
use^^^^^H I think I read long after the fact 

wouldn't let then. This was long after it happened 
This is the problem reading newspapers and everything else. 

Q At the time, were you aware Clarridge was making 
efforts to get clearances 

A Probably. 1 don't specifically recall, but 
probably, yes. 

Q Here you aware he was in touch with 





A No. Only ^^^^^H the only one I recall. 

Do you remember any cables being drafted or pre 
pared on that Saturday to go out to anyone connected with thi > 
operation? 

A Cables being drafted, I didn't ~ I don't know 
Q I take it you were in fairly close touch wi 

1 during the day Saturday, is that right? 
A Yes. 

Q Making phone calls from the office down to 
A Yes. 



UNCIASSIHED 



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Did you make phone calls to anyone else front 
Clarridge's office? 

A 

Q 
him? 



Not that I can think of. 

Perhaps to^^^B I take it you may have called 



A I wouldn't have called^^^Hdirectly. I don't 
think so. It is possible. 

Q Were other people on the phone other than, I 
believe, you testified about a phone call from North to a 
person who seemed to be Poindexter, and were there any other 
phone calls other than that you recall being made during the 
day? 

A The phone was ringing all day. That is the only 
specific one I recall, the one^^^^^^l and the one that 
appeared to be from North to his boss, his superior. There 
were all sorts of phone calls. 

Q Can you tell us who else might have called that 



day? 



A I don't know. 

Q Has Clarridge on the phone with anyone that day? 

A Certainly. , 

Q Do you know who h« was speaking to? 

A No. 

Q As of that Saturday, were you aware of who this 



Mr. Copp was? Did 




hard Secord? 



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A No, no. 

Q Was Copp's name used during Saturday meetings? 

A Yes, it was. 

Q Vlho was he described as being? 
A An Israeli. 

Q He was described as an Israeli? 
A That was my understanding. I have learned that 
from the newspapers a year later. And at that time I didn't 
Know it, as a matter of fact. 

Q What you are saying, as of the time you wrote 
these handwritten notes we have been referring to, which I 
guess you wrote in December, 1986, you didn't Know Copp was 
Secord, is that correct? 
A I did not. 

Q j^^^H^fl there a reference here in your hand 
written notes, I believe it says -Took U.S. registered 
aircraft off mission." 
A Yes. 
Q Could you tell me what that refers to and what it 

means? 

A Yes. We had two aircraft in Tel Aviv. One was a 
foreign registered aircraft, and the other was a United 
States registered aircraft. We decided it was better, once 
we learned the destination, not to use the U.S. registered 



aircraft. 



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Q Who decided that? 
A Z would say consensus. 
Consensus among you. North, Clarridge? 
A No, more from^^^H and^^^Hand myself and 
Clarridge. 

Q Clarridge concurred in that decision, is that right? 

I am sure he did, yes. 

Did North weigh in on that decision? 

I don't recall. 

Why didn't you want to take the U.S. plane to 



A 

Q 
A 

Q 
Tehran? 

A It didn't seem like a good idea if you had a 
foreign registered aircraft. 

I gu-sss at that point it wasn't clear whether it 
was going to Tabriz or Tehran, is that right? 

A I presume not. I don't know when that changed. 

Q Why specifically did you think it was better not 
to tiike the U.S. registered plane to Iran? 

A Iran is not our ally. 

Q You thought that would present some danger to the 
plane and crew, is that right? 

A It is like waving a red flag in front of a bull is 
all I can say. It is common sense. 

Q I am reading again from your handwritten notes. 
There are two lines. One says. ."AOAiA-Jtsked if AADO checked 




849 



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60 



1 Dewey, yes", then below it says, "Also asked again, phone 

2 Saturday night." 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q What does that refer to? 

5 A I asked him on Saturday if the Acting Director of 

6 Operations was aware, and he said yes. Having survived^^H 

7 l^^^^^^l^'^ ^^^ Central Intelligence Agency, I asked him 

8 again Saturday night, because believe me you want to be sure 

9 the people in real authority are aware, and I was satisfied, 

10 thank goodness. 

11 Q It was extremely important to you, I take it, there 

12 be higher approval, is that right? 

13 A Very. I am a responsible person, and you don't 

14 commit our resources on something like this without having 

15 our approval. 

^5 Q Did you not trust Clarridge when he told you the 

17 first time and that is why you asked a second time? 

^g A I wanted to be very sure. And these notes, I 

19 emphasize that. 

20 Q ^es. Again, referring to your handwritten notes, 

21 there is an entry that appears to say, "Talk aQjout Copp 

25 proprietary contact in Tel Aviv." Did you understand this 

23 Mr. Copp was located in Tel Aviv? 

24 A Yes. The agreement that Dewey made with North was 

25 that he would pos_tjir^th«. siQaxA^XMOf^' a commercial 






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coapany wa had gone out and chartered trying to protect the 
integrity of the proprietary. So the proprietary was to 
deal with Copp strictly as a business proposition. 

Q And attempt to prevent Copp of learning of the CIA 
background °^^^^^^^^B ^* that right? 

A Exactly. 

Q Has there any indication that Mr. Copp was 
personally known by North? 

A Well, yas. I think he kept referring to Copp, and 
I gathered he was a contact of North's in Europe. 

Q There is an entry here a little bit further down 
the page in your handwritten notes. It makes mention of, it 
looks like Swimmer. What does that refer to? 

A That is another name that came up quite frequently, 
sort of in the same context as Copp. They kept saying 
"Get a hold of Swimmer', and Swimmer was some guy in Europe. 

Q Do you understand that — 

A I thought in Europe. 

Q Was it your understanding at the time that 
Clarridge and North wiere in telephone contact with either 
Copp or Swimmer? Were there any phone calls placed from 
Clarridge 's office to those individuals? 

A I think there might have been efforts, but I can't 
say that for sure. 

Q What "Tjf'iif _acTi thipk there might have been? 



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A It •••mi logical. 

Q They would have made such phone calls? 

A Yes. There was obviously one heck of a lot of 
confusion, and I would have thought they would have 
probably tried to reach them, but I didn't hear any specific 
conversations . 

Q It appears from other records that by 6:30 a.m., 
Washington time on Saturday, the first^^^^^^^H plane had 
already taken of^^^^^^^^^B bound for Tel Aviv. Does 
that conform to your recollection of where things were going 
at that point? 

A Roughly . 

Q Was there any reference at all on that Saturday or 
around that same time to possible use o^ 

[in any part of this operation? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q You have no recollection of that? 

A No. 

Q Any recollection of possible use of OC-8 aircraft 

at any point in this operation? 

A Yes. 

Q What do you recall about that? 

A It had to do with^^^^^^^^^^^^^we were 
talking about. 



You understood tha 




IWUS»IL 



was goj^ng 



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to use DC-8s? 



A That is my recollection. 

Q Did you understand by the time^^^^^^^^pnras 
involved^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^Bwas no contemplated for 
use in any part of the mission? 

A My presumption was they fell through, no one, I 
don't think, specifically said that. 

Q At the point^^^^^^l was suggested as 
transiting point, did you then understand what was going to 
happen was a plane was going to fly from Tel AvivH^^^Hto 
Iran? 

A I can't tell you the chronology. Sorry. 
MR. WOODCOCK: Do you recall! 
as being referred to as a possible transit point? 
THE WITNESS: Possibly ^^^^^^^^| 
BY MK. CAROME: 

Q Do you recall any discussion about a plane that 
had been chartered to carry the cargo from Tel AvivJ 

A Not specifically, but it sort of makes sense when 
you reconstruct it. I think the idea probably was to cut 
Tel Aviv out of the operation. 

Q To attemtp to — what you are saying is to insert 
another location in between and try to — 

A This is all very vague in the back of my mind. I 
think this is the way I mentioned the last time I testified. 



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and that was several months ago. 

Q What you are saying, so the record is clear, is 
that there was an effort being made to disguise the fact that 
cargo was moving from Israel to Iran, is that right, and 
you would disguise that by inserting an intermediate destina- 
tion and using different planes, is that right? 

A That is a supposition on my part. 
BY MR. WOODCOCK: 

Q Do you recall at any point on Saturday discussion 
about a plane actually taking off from Israel and approach- 
ing a go or no-go point? 

A No, I don't recall that. Lots of things could 
have been discussed. There was a wild group up there, 
believe me, and not very professional. 
BY MR. CAROM£: 

Q Why do you say that? 

A Obviously it was being thrown together at the last 
minute . 

Q You say it was a wild group. What was wild about 
what was going on? 

A They were trying to throw together what appeared 
to be a relatively complex operation without having done thei|r 
homework, it was my personal impression. 

MR. CAROME: Could you mark this as the next 
exhibit please. 



UNCUSSIRED 



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65 



(ExRiblt NoT^^I'4 was marked for Identification.) 
BY MR. CAROME: 
I am about to show you what has been marked as 
Exhibit 4. For the record, it is a cable dated November 23, 
1985, that is Saturday. The time of the cable, time of 
transmission, appears to be^^^^^zulu time. I guess that 
be sometime ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Washington 

a appears to be ^<^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
■from Clarridge. It refers to, in paragraph 2, and 
I quote, "A total of five sorties are required for this 
operation." I ask you to look at that C2d>le and ask you 
if it helps you remember the nature of the discussions going 
on that Saturday. 

A It certainly ties in with this phone conversation. 
Q Do you recall the number of five sorties being 
discussed? 

A I don't specifically recall it, but I don't 
-question it. 

Q Were you informed when the^^^^^^^| plane arrived 
in Tel Aviv? 

A I think probably^^^^^^^Vwould have informed 
either me o 

Q By telephone, I take it. Is that right? 




Why 



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66 



A I an not sure, but it probably would have been. 

Q vrhat do you recall learning about how the plane 
was received in Tehran? 

A My recollection is there was a lot of confusion. 

Q What were you told about that? 

A Well, I got it third hand, but the proprietary 
was unhappy, there seemed to be a lot of people running 
around unclear who was in charge, if I recall, they were 
having problems with money to buy fuel for the aircraft. 

Q So the record is clear, we are talking about the 
arrival in Tel Aviv, is that right? 

A That is what you said. Yes. 

Okay . 

A I would have heard that — it would have been 
third or fourth hand by the time it got to me. My under- 
standing is that it was poorly organized. 






And you either heard that directly fron 

who would have talked tq^H^H is that 



Q 
froi 
right? 

A That is correct. 

Q I may have asked you this before, but I am going to 
ask you again. Do you have any idea why the destination 
would have changed from Tabriz to Tehran? - 

A No. 

Q No discussions on that subject at all as far as 



IDIASSIEIEL 



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you can recall? 

A None that I recall. That, to me, would have been 
inunaterial really. It would have floim right by me, in 
other words. 

Do you recall hearing that the people on the 
ground in Tel Aviv that the crew was dealing with were 
reluctant to have this second^^^^^^^f plane pulled out of 
the operation? 

A I don't recall that, but it is possible. 

Q I believe that Exhibit 3 refers to efforts to 
repaint the plane or to fly formation in order to be eible 
to use the U.S. -registered plane. Do you have any recollec- 
tion of those discussions coming up at the time? 

A Mo. But they could have very easily. 

Q Whose decision was it to take the plane into 
IS a stopping point? 

A Actually the suggestion was made by the head of 
-the proprietary. ^ 



A Yes. Because he had used|[^^^^Hfor refueling 
purposes, you Icnow, going through Europe before, and he felt 
there wouldn't be any problems there. 

Q Was there any concernl 




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A If I recall, I don't think Dewey was loaded with 
enthusiasm at the suggestion. 




Q I take it that you relayed the suggestion that had 
originated witt^BMH^^Hto North and Clarridge, is that 
correct? 

Yes. I must have. It probably came froi 

jdirectly to me an<f^^H and then to Dewey. 

Q Clarridge thought it was a bad idea? 

A He didn't think it was a bad idea. He just 
wasn't — no, he didn't think it was a bad idea. If he had 
had another choice, I think he would have preferred to use 
another place. Obviously, it appears his other options were 
no longer there. 

Do you recall on that Saturday that there was an 
effort being made to obtain over-flight right 

A Yes. I don't recall the specifics of it, but there 
was a definite effort, and we did receive them. 

Q How did you learn they were received? 

A I presume from Mr. Clarridge. 

Q Vfho did you understand Mr. Clarridge was in 



touch with o: 



DRCOSmO 



ight rights? 



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A I don't k