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Full text of "Report of the congressional committees investigating the Iran- Contra Affair : with supplemental, minority, and additional views"

Y l.l/2:Serial 13747 

100-1: United States Congre., 



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100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987 



Senate Report 

No. 216 




IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 6 
DEPOSITIONS 



United States Congressional Serial Set 

Serial Number 13747 



United States Government Printing Office 
Washington : 1989 



Union Calendar No. 277 
100th Congress, 1st Session 
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the 

Iran-Contra Affair 

Appendix B: Volume 6 
Depositions 



Daniel K. Inouye, Chairman, 
Senate Select Committee 

Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman, 
House Select Committee 



U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives 

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate 

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House 

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed. 

November 17, 1987.— Ordered to be printed. 



Washington : 1988 



BnitEd 3tatE5 Senate 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON, DC 20510-6480 



March 1, 1988 

Honorable John C. Stennis 
President pro tempore 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 

Dear Mr. President: 

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to 
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes 
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become 
available. 



Sincerely, 




(/uJL 



Warren B. Rudman V^ 
Vice Chairman 



III 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON, DC 20515 

(202) 225-7902 

March 1, 1988 



The Honorable Jim Wright 
Speaker of the House 
U. S. Capitol 
Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr . Speaker : 

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and 
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st 
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the 
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair , 
House Report No. 100-433, 100th Congress, 1st Session. 

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the 
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of 
Appendix B have been declassified fop-^elease to the public. 

enely yours. 




Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman 



United States Senate 

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman 
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman 

George J. Mitchell, Maine 

Sam Nunn, Georgia 
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland 
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama 
David L. Boren, Oklahoma 

James A. McClure, Idaho 

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah 

William S. Cohen, Maine 

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

To the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 



VI 



United States House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
Transactions with Iran 

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman 
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman 

Thomas S. Foley, Washington 

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey 

Jack Brooks, Texas 

Louis Stokes, Ohio 

Les Aspin, Wisconsin 

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts 

Ed Jenkins, Georgia 

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking Republican 

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan 

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois 

Jim Courter, New Jersey 

Bill McCollum, Florida 

Michael DeWine, Ohio 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



VII 



United States Senate 



Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to 
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

to the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 

Associate Counsels 



C. H. Albright, Jr. 
Daniel Finn 
C. H. Holmes 
James E. Kaplan 
Charles M. Kerr 
Joel P. Lisker 



W. T. McGough, Jr. 
Richard D. Parry 
John D. Saxon 
Terry A. Smiljanich 
Timothy C. Woodcock 



Committee Staff 



Assistant Counsels 



Legal Counsel 
Intelligence /Foreign 

Policy Analysts 
Investigators 



Press Assistant 
General Accounting 
Office Detailees 



Security Officer 
Security Assistants 



Chief Clerk 
Deputy Chief Clerk 



Steven D. Arkin* 
Isabel K. McGinty 
John R. Monsky 
Victoria F. Nourse 
Philip Bobbitt 
Rand H. Fishbein 
Thomas Polgar 
Lawrence R. 

Embrey, Sr. 
David E. Faulkner 
Henry J. Flynn 
Samuel Hirsch 
John J. Cronin 
Olga E. Johnson 
John C. Martin 
Melinda Suddes* 
Robert Wagner 
Louis H. Zanardi 
Benjamin C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David Carty 
Kim Lasater 
Scott R. Thompson 
Judith M. Keating* 
Scott R. Ferguson 



Staff Assistants 



Administrative Staff 



Secretaries 



Receptionist 
Computer Center 
Detailee 



John K. Appleby 
Ruth Balin 
Robert E. Esler 
Ken Foster* 
Martin H. Garvey 
Rachel D. Kaganoff* 
Craig L. Keller 
Hawley K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen G. Miller 
Jennie L. Pickford* 
Michael A. Raynor 
Joseph D. 

Smallwood* 
Kristin K. Trenholm 
Thomas E. Tremble 
Bruce Vaughn 
Laura J. Ison 
Hilary Phillips 
Winifred A. Williams* 
Nancy S. Durflinger 
Shari D. Jenifer 
Kathryn A. Momot 
Cindy Pearson 
Debra S. Sheffield* 
Ramona H. Green 
Preston Sweet 



VIII 



Committee Members' Designated Liaison 



Senator Inouye 
Senator Rudman 

Senator Mitchell 

Senator Nunn 

Senator Sarbanes 
Senator Heflin 



Peter Simons 
William V. Cowan 
Thomas C. Polgar 
Richard H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore Hill 
Jeffrey H. Smith 
Frederick Millhiser 
Thomas J. Young 



Senator Boren 

Senator McClure 
Senator Hatch 

Senator Cohen 

Senator Trible 



Sven Holmes 
Blythe Thomas 
Jack Gerard 
Dee V. Benson 
James G. Phillips 
James Dykstra 
L. Britt Snider 
Richard Cullen 



Part Time* 



Assistant Counsel 
Hearings Coordinator 
Staff Assistants 



Interns 



Peter V. Letsou 
Joan M. Ansheles 
Edward P. 

Flaherty, Jr. 
Barbara H. Hummell 
David G. Wiencek 
Nona Balaban 
Edward E. 

Eldridge, III 
Elizabeth J. Glennie 
Stephen A. Higginson 
Laura T. Kunian 
Julia F. Kogan 
Catherine L. Udell 



Document Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 



Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 
Edward L. Keenan 
Lewis Liman 
Catherine Roe 
Susan Walsh 



*The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during 
the life of the Committee, provided services. 



IX 



United States House of Representatives 



Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 



Majority Staff 



Special Deputy 

Chief Counsel 
Staff Counsels 



Press Liaison 
Chief Clerk 
Assistant Clerk 
Research Director 
Research Assistants 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Charles Tiefer 

Kenneth M. Ballen 
Patrick J. Carome 
V. Thomas 

Fryman, Jr. 
Pamela J. 

Naughton 
Joseph P. Saba 
Robert J. Havel 
Ellen P. Rayner 
Debra M. Cabral 
Louis Fisher 
Christine C. 

Birmann 
Julius M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth D. Harvey 
James E. Rosenthal 



Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive Assistant 
Staff Assistants 



Catherine L. 

Zimmer 
Charles G. Ratcliff 
Stephen M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth S. Wright 
Bonnie J. Brown 
Christina Kalbouss 
Sandra L. Koehler 
Jan L. Suter 
Katherine E. Urban 
Kristine Willie 
Mary K. Yount 



Minority Staff 



Associate Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant Minority 

Counsel 
Minority Research 

Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



Robert W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth R. Buck 

Bruce E. Fein 



Minority Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority Executive 
Assistant 

Minority Staff 
Assistant 



Michael J. Malbin 

Molly W. Tully 

Margaret A. 
Dillenburg 



Committee Staff 



Investigators 



Director of Security 



Robert A. 

Bermingham 
James J. Black 
Thomas N. 

Ciehanski 
William A. Davis, 

III 
Clark B. Hall 
Allan E. Hobron 
Roger L. Kreuzer 
Donald Remstein 
Jack W. Taylor 
Timothy E. Traylor 
Bobby E. Pope 



Security Officers 



Editor 

Deputy Editor 
Associate Editor 
Production Editor 
Hearing Editors 

Printing Clerk 



Rafael Luna, Jr. 
Theresa M. Martin 
Milagros Martinez 
Clayton C. Miller 
Angel R. Torres 
Joseph Foote 
Lisa L. Berger 
Nina Graybill 
Mary J. Scroggins 
David L. White 
Stephen G. Regan 
G. R. Beckett 



Associate Staff 



Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 



Michael H. 

Van Dusen 
Christopher Kojm 
R. Spencer Oliver 
Bert D. Hammond 
Victor Zangla 
Heather S. Foley 
Werner W. Brandt 
M. Elaine Mielke 
James J. 

Schweitzer 
William M. Jones 

Michael J. O'Neil 
Richard M. Giza 
Richard E. Clark 
Warren L. Nelson 



Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courter 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General Counsel to 

the Clerk 



Michael W. Sheehy 

Robert H. Brink 

Steven K. Berry 
David S. Addington 
Diane S. Doman 

Dennis E. Teti 

Tina L. Westby 

Nicholas P. Wise 

Steven R. Ross 



XI 



Contents 

Volume 6 



Preface XXI 

Collier, George E 1 

Cole, Gary 83 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA 177 

Conrad, Daniel L 191 



XIII 



Depositions 



Volume 1 



Airline Proprietary Project Officer. 
Alvarez, Francisco J. 
Allen, Charles. 
Arcos, Cresencio. 



Volume 2 



Volume 3 



Armitage, Richard. 
Artiano, Martin L. 
Associate DDO (CIA). 
Baker, James A., III. 
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter. 
Bamett, Ana. 
Bartlett, Linda June. 
Bastian, James H. 
Brady, Nicholas F. 
Brown, Arthur E., Jr. 



Byrne, Phyllis M. 
Calero, Adolfo. 
Castillo, Tomas ("W"). 
Cave, George W. 
C/CATF. 



Volume 4 

Channell, Carl R. 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer). 

Chatham, Benjamin P. 

CIA Air Branch Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate. 

CIA Chief. 

CIA Communicator. 

CIA Identity "A". 



XV 



Volume 5 

CIA Officer. 

Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr. 

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink). 

Clarke, George. 

Clarridge, Dewey R. 

Cline, Ray S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen, Harold G. 

Volume 6 

Collier, George E. 

Cole, Gary. 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA. 

Conrad, Daniel L. 



Volume 7 



Cooper, Charles J. 
Coors, Joseph. 
Corbin, Joan. 
Corr, Edwin G. 
Coward, John C. 
Coy, Craig P. 
Crawford, Iain T.R. 



Crawford, Susan. 
Crowe, Adm. William J. 
Currier, Kevin W. 
DCM, Country 15. 
DEA Agent 1. 
DEA Agent 2. 
DEA Agent 3. 
deGraffenreid, Kenneth, 
de la Torre, Hugo. 
Deputy Chief "DC". 



Duemling, Robert W. 
DIA Major. 
Dietel, J. Edwin. 
Dowling, Father Thomas. 
Dutton, Robert C. 
Earl, Robert. 



Volume 8 



Volume 9 



XVI 



Volume 10 



Farber, Jacob. 
Feldman, Jeffrey. 
Fischer, David C. 
Floor, Emanuel A. 
Former CIA Officer. 
Fraser, Donald. 
Fraser, Edie. 
Fuller, Craig L. 



Volume 11 



Furmark, Roy. 

Gadd, Richard. 

Gaffney, Henry. 

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A. Rudd). 

Galvin, Gen. John R. 

Gantt, Florence. 

Garwood, Ellen Clayton. 

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C. 

Gates, Robert M. 

Glanz, Anne. 



Volume 12 



George, Clair. 
Godard, Ronald D. 
Godson, Roy S. 
Golden, William. 
Gomez, Francis D. 
Goodman, Adam. 
Gorman, Paul F. 
Graham, Daniel O. 
Gregg, Donald P. 
Gregorie, Richard D. 
Guillen, Adriana. 



Hakim, Albert. 



Hall, Wilma. 
Hasenfus, Eugene. 
Hirtle, Jonathan J. 
Hooper, Bruce. 



Volume 13 



Volume 14 



XVII 



Hunt, Nelson Bunker. 
Ikle, Fred C. 
Jensen, D. Lowell. 
Juchniewicz, Edward 
Kagan, Robert W. 
Keel, Alton G. 
Kellner, Leon B. 
Kelly, John H. 
Kiszynski, George. 



Koch, Noel C. 
Kuykendall, Dan H. 
Langton, William G. 
Lawn, John C. 
Leachman, Chris J., Jr. 
Ledeen, Michael A. 



Lei want, David O. 
Lilac, Robert H. 
Lincoln, Col. James B. 
Littledale, Krishna S. 
McDonald, John William. 
McFarlane, Robert C. 
McKay, Lt. Col. John C. 
McLaughlin, Jane E. 



McMahon, John N. 
McMahon, Stephen. 
McNeil, Frank. 
Makowka, Bernard. 
Marostica, Don. 
Marsh, John. 
Mason, Robert H. 



Meese, Edwin IIL 
Melton, Richard H. 
Merchant, Brian T. 
Meo, Philip H. 
Miller, Arthur J. 
Miller, Henry S. 
Miller, Johnathan. 



Volume 15 



Volume 16 



Volume 17 



Volume 18 



XVIII 



Miller, Richard R. 



Motley, Langhome A. 
Mulligan, David R 
Nagy, Alex G. 
Napier, Shirley A. 
Newington, Barbara. 
North, Oliver L. 
O'Boyle, William B. 
Osborne, Duncan. 
Owen, Robert W. 
Pena, Richard. 
Pickering, Thomas. 
Poindexter, John M. 



Posey, Thomas V. 
Powell, Gen. Colin L. 
Price, Charles H., H. 
Proprietary Manager. 
Proprietary Pilot. 
Radzimski, James R. 
Ramsey, John W. 
Ransom, David M. 



Volume 19 



Volume 20 



Volume 21 



Volume 22 



Raymond, Walter, Jr. 

Regan, Donald T. 

Reich, Otto J. 

Revell, Oliver B. 

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman). 

Reynolds, William B. 



Volume 23 



Richard, Mark M. 
Richardson, John, Jr. 
Robelo, Alfonso. 
Robinette, Glenn A. 
Rodriguez, Felix I. 
Roseman, David. 



XIX 



Rosenblatt, William. 

Royer, Larry. 

Rudd, Glenn A. 

Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney). 



Rugg, John J. 
Russo, Vincent M. 
Sanchez, Nestor. 
Scharf, Lawrence. 
Schweitzer, Robert L. 
Sciaroni, Bretton G. 
Secord, Richard V. 



Shackley, Theodore G. 
Sigur, Gaston J. 
Simpson, Major C. 
Sinclair, Thomas C. 
Singlaub, John K. 



Slease, Clyde H., IIL 
Smith, Clifton. 
Sofaer, Abraham D. 
Steele, Col. James J. 
Taft, William H., IV. 
Tashiro, Jack T. 
Teicher, Howard. 
Thompson, Paul. 
Tillman, Jacqueline. 



Volume 24 



Volume 25 



Volume 26 



Volume 27 



Thurman, Gen. Maxwell. 

Trott, Stephen S. 

TuU, James L. 

Vessey, John. 

Walker, William G. 

Watson, Samuel J., III. 

Weinberger, Caspar. 

Weld, William. 

Wickham, John. 

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark). 



XX 



Preface 



The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing 
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290 
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation. 

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses 
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the 
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings. 

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority 
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the 
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals 
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents 
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents. 

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet 
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded 
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review 
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc- 
tions to the Select Committees. 

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege 
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were 
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were 
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals 
retained their own counsel. 

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted 
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that, 
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid 
answering a question, his or her compelled responses— or leads or collateral 
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal 
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false 
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order. 

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House, 
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some 
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some 
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons. 

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious 
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information 
not considered germane to the investigation. 

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow- 
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence — were developed by Select 
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were 
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the 
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for 
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original 



XXI 



exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the 
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in- 
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate. 

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages, 
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts 
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order. 



XXII 



Publications of the Senate and House 
Select Committees 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, 
1 volume, 1987. 

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988. 
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988. 

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S. 
Government Printing Office. 



XXIII 



rl 



2 

3 

i 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

.4 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 






%i 



USSiFiEB ^cu, 



aflfl) 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

and 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Redstone Arsenal, Alabama 
Monday, August 10, 1987 

The deposition of GEORGE EARL COLLIER, called for 
examination in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, 
in the office of the Staff Judge Advocate, room G15, building 111, 
Redstone Arsenal, Alabama, convened at 11:59 a.m., when were 
present on behalf of the parties: 





Partially Declassided/Releaseo on '/J^« -)86' 
under oravisions ol E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Sacunty Council 



QQMMki 



2 



-Of CQPi£S 



82-698 0-88-2 




WKSW 



APPEARANCES : 

2 On Behalf of the Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and Nicaraguan Opposition of 

3 the United States Senate : 

4 JOHN SAXON, ESQUIRE 
Associate Counsel 

5 901 Hart Senate Office Building 
Washington, D.C. 20510 

6 

7 

8 On Behalf of the Department of the Army: 

9 COLONEL JOHN K. WALLACE III 

Chief, Investigations and Legislative Division Office 

10 Chief of Legislative Liaison 
Office of the Secretary of the Army 

11 HQDA (SALL-IL) 
Washington, D.C. 20310-1600 

12 

13 
4 Court Reporter: 

15 Diane S. Mohlere 

U.S. Army Missile Command 

16 Attn: AMSMI-JA 

Redstone Arsenal, AL 35898-5120 
17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 



24 
25 



iwsro 



\I1USSW 









CONTENTS 




2 WITNESS 








EXAMINATION 


3 GEORGE ( 


COLLIER 








4 By 


Mr. Saxon 






4 


5 
6 






EXHIBITS 




7 NUMBER 










8 Collier 


Deposition 


1 






Collier 


Deposition 


2 






9 Collier 


Deposition 


3 






Collier 


Deposition 


4 






10 Collier 


Deposition 


5 






Collier 


Deposition 


6 






11 Collier 


Deposition 


7 , 






Collier 


Deposition 


8 






12 Collier 


Deposition 


9 






Collier 


Deposition 


10 






13 Collier 


Deposition 


11 






Collier 


Deposition 


12 






4 Collier 


Deposition 


13 






Collier 


Deposition 


14 






15 Collier 


Deposition 


15 






Collier 


Deposition 


16 






16 Collier 


Deposition 


17 






Collier 


Deposition 


18 






17 Collier 


Deposition 


19 







18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



m^%%^^^ 




LISSIFIEI) 



PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon, 

3 GEORGE EARL COLLIER 

4 was called for examination by counsel for the Senate Select Committee, 

5 and having been first duly sworn by Colonel John K. Wallace III, was 

6 examined and testified as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. SAXON: 

9 0- If you would, sir, please state your full name for the record. 

10 A. George Earl Collier. 

11 Q. And, Mr. Collier, what is your current position? 

12 A. Supervisor, Logistic Management Specialist, in the Fielded 

13 Application Branch, Logistic Management, TOW Project Office. 
■* 0- And how long have you been in that position? 

15 A. Since December 1985. 

16 Qi And what were you doing previous to that? 

17 A. I was a head logistician on the Bradley Fighting Vehicle program 

18 Q. I'm sorry; on the what? 

19 A. Bradley Fighting Vehicle Program. 

20 Q. And in your current position, to whom do you currently report; 

21 A. Currently? 

22 Q. Yes. 

23 A. C. C. Johnson. 
2* Ql And what is his position? 
2^ A. He's division chief. 




UNCI 



4 


A. 


5 


& 


6 


A. 


7 


Q. 


8 


A. 


9 


0. 


10 


A. 


11 


0. 



Q. Okay. At the time of the Project Snowball, what we now know 

2 as Snowball/ the TOW missiles which we now know went to Iran, who was 

3 your supervisor? 
Chris Leachman. 

And he is now the Deputy TOW Project Manager? 
That's correct. 

At the time, who was the TOW Project Manager? 
Colonel James Lincoln. 

And who is now the TOW Project Manager? 
Colonel Devanney, Thomas Devanney. 
And for our' purposes, we have no interest in Colonel Devanney 

^^ because he came on the scene after all this, I assume. 

^3 A. Right. 

'* 0- All right, if you would, Mr. Collier, walk us through 

^^ chronologically what happened from your own personal standpoint in being 

^^ involved with Project Snowball. If things took place prior to your 

^^ coming on board, we're not interested in those. Tell us what happened 

1 Q 

from day one of your involvement, on. 
^^ A. Okay. I became involved with the second shipment, and in that- 

^° gi That's the second shipment of TOWs, which would have been 508 

21 

in number, correct? 

22 



23 



A. That's correct. And as a part of that, ray involvement was 
after certain calls was made to my front office, you know; all I did was 



provide directions to the item manager to prepare the missiles for 
shipment. 



UNtmSW 



UNCLASSIF1[ 



Q. And from whom did you receive that call? i 

2 A. That call? 

3 0. Yes. 

4 A. That call would either have been from my — I'm trying to see 

5 what my division chief — it probably would have been from him or the deputy. 

6 I took over on the second shipment because my boss was going out of town. 

7 Qi Mr. Leachman was going to a quarterly review. 

8 A. Right. And I really can't just say right now whether or not 

9 he was actually present when that actual call was made. In answer to 

10 that, maybe no; I may have gotten it from the deputy. 

11 Q. From whomever you got that call, how did the tasking come to 

12 you? What were you told to do? 

13 A. The tasking was prepare, you know, "Get 508 missiles ready for 
4 shipment, and everything will be the same as the first one." 

15 Q. So, basically the seune customer and the same logistics, handling, 

16 everything else? 

17 A. Right. Call outMRO, have them shipped to appear at Redstone 

18 at a certain date, and they would be off-loaded, on-loaded on the trucks, 

19 going, you know — 

20 Q. And for the record, what's an MRO? 

21 A. Materiel Release Order. 

22 Q. And what is it? What function does it serve? 
A. Well, it's the official document for releasing items out of 



23 A 

2* stock. 
25 n 



And that's what's necessary for the Army Missile Command to 



UNCUSSIHED 




provide to Anniston Army Depot in order for them — that's their authority 

2 to go forward and execute on the requirement? 

3 A. That's correct. 

4 Qi To your knowledge, who physically prepared the MRO? 

5 A. The item manager would have. 

6 & And who was the item manager at that time? 

7 A Would have been John Coward. 

8 & Coward, C-o-w-a-r-d? 

9 A Right. Now, you know, they say that--I'm sure not in all cases, 

10 they prepare a complete form — you know, I'm sure, you got tech edit, 

11 another staff over there that finish processing. 

12 Q. Tech edit? 

13 A Tech edit, right. Right. 

•i Q. When you told Coward to prepare the MRO, what, kind of information 

15 did you give him, other than to say 508 missiles? Did you tell him what 

16 kind of missiles? 

17 A Thinking back, I don't think I did because, again, having these 

18 missiles, I guess somewhat fenced, he knew that when I made the call that, 

19 "John, we got another shipment, same as the first," he knew what the 

20 missile type, NSN, what condition code we needed. 

21 Q. And what would that have been that he knew? What would have 

22 been the abbreviated NSN, national stock number? 

23 A He would have known the NSN stock number, condition code, and 
2* I would have told him the quantity. Okay. 

25 gi All right. But — and we will talk to Mr. Coward; I'm not asking 



82-688 • 0C7 



UNCLASSIFIED 



you to get in his mind and tell us exactly what he knew — 

2 A. Okay . 

3 Qi — but, from your understanding at that time, did you know what 

4 the national stock number was? 

5 A. Oh, I did, but in transcribing — in other words, calling him 

6 and telling him, I didn't have to tell him any of this because, again, 

7 he — 

8 Qi Let me ask you this way. Did you know if we were talking about 

9 basic TOWS with MOICs? 

10 A. Yes. 

11 Q. M-O-I-C, the safety modification? 

12 A. Right. 

13 Q. And did you know that that had a particular stock number 
•'* separate and apart from a basic TOW without the safety modification? 

15 A. That's correct. 

16 Q. And did you know what the price of that missile would have been, 

17 roughly, rough figures? 

18 fl. In referring to the AMDF, yes, I would have. Right. 

19 Ql And AMDF, that A-M-D-F, the Army master data file. That's 

20 the catalog that has prices and stock numbers for parts — 

21 A Right. 

22 gi — and materiel. 



23 



A Right. 



2^ Ql And what would you have known the price of the basic TOW 
^^ with MOIC to be as carried in the AMDF? 




Q 





A. ■^84 35. 

2 0- Eight thousand, four hundred and thirty-five dollars. 

3 A. Right. 

4 0- Let me talk about this a bit further by asking you--you knew, 

5 I assume, that a basic TOW by itself would have been carried in the AMDF 

6 at a much lower price, correct? 

7 A. That is correct. 

8 0. And what was that price? Do you recall? 

9 A. Knowing now, $3^169. 

10 Q. And do you have any idea what a MOIC costs or the MOIC kit? 

11 A. A round number, $350. 

12 Q. So, if I understand your testimony, you're saying that if we 

L ^ 

13 have a basic TOW with MOIC, we don't simply takeTl69 and add 300 — 

* A. No . 

— and get 3469. 

No. 

What happens? 

Why we wouldn ' t have that? 

Right. 

It's different in acquisition years, you know. That old missile 
was bought in '69, and you take the missile we're talking about, with a 
^^ MOIC, you're talking about a 1970 — about a '77, '78 vintage, and just 
price alone '69 to '70 would change. 

24 

Q. Someone at the Missile Command fed into the AMDF at some point 

25 

a higher price at the point at which the MOIC was identified as solving 



15 


0. 


16 


A. 


17 


Q. 


18 


A. 


19 


a 


20 


A. 


21 w;. 


Q Hoi 



DNCUSSIflED 



10 



.IINMIFIEO 



10 



a particular safety problem. 

2 A. Sure. 

3 Q. And that created a new missile with a new national stock number. 

4 A. That's right. 

5 Q. And you knew that. 

6 A. Right. 

7 Ql Would it be fair to say that other people who worked with you 

8 and around you knew these things; i.e., that a basic TOW with MOIC had 

9 a different national stock number and, therefore, a different price? 

10 A. Different price, right. 

11 Ql And understand that I'm not asking you to state specifically 

12 everybody who might have known that, but let me ask you about some 

13 particular individuals who you might have reason to know would know that. 
'■'* A. Okay . 

15 0. I think you've already said that Mr. Coward would know that. 

16 A. Right. 

1^ Ql To the best of your knowledge, did Mr. Leachman know that at 

18 the time? 

1' A. He would know it, but, I mean, saying--to know what the actual 

20 number without referring to the AMDF, he wouldn't know, but, yes, he 

21 would know it would have a different stock number, different NSN. 

22 Ql Would Mr. Williams know that? 
A. Yes. 

0. Would Colonel Lincoln know that? 
A. Yes, but only after referring to the documents. You know. 



23 
24 
25 



IINCUSSIFIED 



11 



UNMSIfO 



11 



just off the top of their head, they wouldn't. 

2 Qi By which you mean they might not know the exact price, but 

3 they would know that if you had a basic TOW with MOIC, it would have a 

4 different stock number and it would have a different price? 

5 A. That's correct. 

6 Q. Now, let me ask you a little bit about the AMDF. Do you regularly 

7 at that time, did you regularly use the AMDF? 
On dif ferent--on other projects, yeah. I had to refer to AMDF. 
It was not a resource with which you were unfamiliar? 
No. NO, 

And when and why would you use the AMDF? 
For price references. 

And you would--it may sound elementary, but just for the record, 

7 
'» describe what you would do. 

15 A. Well, for instance, in the other programs I'd work on, you 

16 know, if I-- 

17 g Well, use this one. Let's say you wanted to look up just the 
1-8 price of a basic TOW. Pretend you didn't know it. What would you do? 

19 A. Okay. If I wanted to know what the price of a basic TOW, I'd 

20 just go to the AMDF. I'd go to the microfiche, and I'd go by NSN, and 

2^ I know we got several different types of missiles now because of different 

22 modifications added to them. 

23 Qi So, you'd take a particular stock number — 
24 



8 


A. 


9 


Qi 


10 


A. 


11 


Q. 


12 


A. 


13 


Q- 



A. Right. 
2^ Qi — and simply look it up? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



12 



WUSS/fiffl 



12 



A. Right. 

2 Qi And would you go across some column — 

3 A. Right. 

4 Q. --till you find the price? 

5 A. Right. Correct. 

d Q. And that's a fairly — 

7 A. Simple process, and AMDF was--basic system is updated annually, 

8 but I'm told you can update it more frequently than that, but as a rule, 

9 there's an annual update, price change. 

10 0- And I think you've answered it, but let me make sure. If you 

11 went to the AMDF to Look up a price of a basic TOW that you were told 

12 had to be in condition code "A", would you know that that was a basic 

13 TOW with MOIC? 

4 A. It had to be, in condition code "A." 

15 ft Right. 

16 A. Yes, it would have to be a basic TOW, right, because otherwise 

17 a basic TOW would be in condition code "N" or "J" because of the MOIC 

18 situation. 

19 ft For the record, MOIC is the acronym for Missile Ordnance 

20 Inhibitor Circuit, vAich is a safety device added to the basic TOW to 

21 prevent a ^^^^^^1 problem. 

22 A. Right. 

23 ft And when you went to the AMDF and looked at the basic TOW with 

24 MOIC, what would you find the price to be? 

25 A. It would be^8435. Now for the — 



I 



lliSifitB 



13 



IJNCUSSSiFlED 



13 



i Qi Go ahead. 

2 A. Now, for the record, now, again, now, I did not do this. You're 

3 just asking, of course, if we--okay. I wanted to make sure. Okay. 

4 Q. What would be the reason why you did not do it in this 

5 particular case? 

6 A. Well, in this particular case, you know, again, when I came on, 

7 the price issue was, as I knew it, was a foregone conclusion, okay. 
You were not personally involved in any-- 
Negotiations. 

— discussions or negotiations? 
Changes, no. 
Over price. 
Correct. 
Is there a preferred source to go to, other than the a:1DF, 

15 within the TOW Missile Division? 

16 A. Well, you can always use your program manager's office to look 
1^ at the — like I say, replacement price: What did we buy for this? 

1^ What do we buy for it now? and they really are the people that supposed 

1^ to update the AMDF as well, so that's the other critical thing, that if 

^'^ they got something later, you can go to them. It's maybe not in the 

^^ machine, and they ought to be able to tell you. 

^^ Q. If I asked you for the best source of pricing data on a basic 

^^ TOW missile with MOIC, what would you say is the answer? 

^* A. I'd go to the AMDF, but as a backup, I'd always tell anybody 

^ to refer to the appropriate person in the program management office. 



8 


0- 


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A. 


10 


& 


11 


A. 


12 


0. 


13 


A. 


U 


0. 



llNCUSSlFe 



14 



ONCUSSIflED 



14 



6 All right. If you knew the AMDF price of a basic TOW with 

2 MOIC was $8j435 and somebody said, "Well, we want to sell it for less 

3 than that," to your knowledge, is there any basis that would allow the 
U Army to discount it, so to speak? 

5 A. Negative. 

6 Qi Have you ever been involved with a project in which a price 

7 was discounted from that that was reflected in the AMDF? 

8 A. No. No. Well, I can say only this one, okay. 

9 Qi Let me ask you about whether it came to your attention that 

10 anyone in the Missile Command leadership raised the issue of price. 

11 You've already said that you personally weren't involved in any 

12 negotiations, dickering, arguing, over what the appropriate price should 

13 be. Were you ever made aware that individuals did press forward with 

•4 higher authorities the issue of what the appropriate price for the basic 

15 TOW with MOIC should be? 

16 A. Yes, and as I understand, you know, basically what happened is 

17 that Colonel Lincoln, Mr. Williams, as well as Mr. Leachman both tried to 

18 get the price, you know, increased to the ^8435, but it was a losing 

19 battle. You know, the decision was already made that, "Hey, we're going 

20 with the lesser price." 

21 Q. All right. Let me ask you several questions about this. You 

22 said the argument was to try to get the 8435 price. 



23 



A. Right. 



2* Qi Now, do you use that figure because 84 35 was, in your mind, 
^^ the appropriate price for a basic TOW with MOIC, or when you use that 

IB 




lliyt.ny'- 



15 



llNClAS(>niB 



figure, do you mean it to be the replacement figure if the Army was going 

2 to replace these TOWs with ITOW or T0W2? 

3 A. Well, I would believe it to be what was reflected in the AMDF, 

4 what I would have to buy, but, also, it would be replacement if I was 

5 buying ipow. 

6 Q. And how do you know that these arguments or issues were raised? 

7 What's your source for knowing that Colonel Lincoln and Mr. Williams and 

8 Mr. Leachman may have raised these issues? 

9 A. Well, just based on, I guess, after getting involved with the 

10 second shipment and talking with them. 

11 Q. Being told by whom, to the best of your recollection? 

12 A. Well, Mr. Leachman, Mr. Williams, and understand from Mr. Bentley 

13 at that time, who was program manager, it was discussed. 
Mr. Bentley? What's the first name? 
Bill. 

And he was program manager for what? 

For TOW Project. He was chief of program management. 
Okay. 
I can't say whether or not — whether Colonel Lincoln and I ever — 

20 wouldn't have been a reason anyway. 

21 Q. To whom did this issue get raised by these individuals? Who 

22 did they raise it with? 

23 A. As I understand it, it was raised back to, at that time, a 
2* Major Chris Simpson. 



i.4 


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A. 


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& 


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A. 


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A. 



25 



Q. And Major Simpson would have been the action officer at the 



UNCLASSIFIED 



16 



UNCLASSIFIED 



16 



office of the Deputy Chief of Staff, Logistics, in Washington? 

2 A. Right . 

3 Q. What was your understanding of the disposition of this issue? 
it I'll put it another way. What did Major Simpson say to their argument? 

5 A. Well, I — just only thing I was told, that, you know, 31 — whatever 

6 it is--plus the MOIC is what we're going to pay. 

7 gi ^3169 plus the-^300? | 

8 A. Right. That's all we're going to get. Nothing else was said 

9 about it. 

10 Q. To your knowledge, did this ever get raised to the level where 

11 generals were talking 'to each other? 

12 A. As I know it, my commander at that time. General Burbules, was 

13 told. 

'■* Q. General Peter Burbules, the Commanding General of the Army 

15 Missile Command? 

16 ft. Right. He was told by Colonel Lincoln. You know, I don't know 
1^ what he did from his angle to try to get anything changed, but I know he 
1^ was told. 

19 ql When you talked with Mr. Leachman at any point about this, do 

20 you recall him ever using the figure of ^435 to talk about the basic TOW 

21 with MOIC? 

22 A. Well, only in describing the fact that there was really an 

23 argument between, you know, DA and MICOM that the price ought to be that 
2* and that we was taking it \ot^ chin to accept it for the other price. 

A 

25 Qt But, you clearly understand that he—let me withdraw that and 



?^f^ss- 




17 



UNCUSSIf 



17 



put it this way. Your testimony is that, in your opinion, Mr. Leachman 

2 clearly knew that the price for a basic TOW with MOIC, if you go to the 

3 AMDF, was"'84 35. 

4 A. Yes. If you went there and looked, right. 

5 Q. And do you recall him specifically ever using that number with 

6 you in a discussion or you using it with him where he clearly would 

7 understand what you were talking about? 

8 A. Well, I was — well, let me see. In discussing with him, 

9 discussing the price issue, the ^4 35 number were, you know, was used 

10 by him. He was familiar with the 8435 number. 

11 Q. So, if I phrased it this way, there was no doubt in your mind 

J 

12 that he was familiar with the '8435 number. 

13 A. Right. 

.4 Qi And would have known that what that represented was the price 

15 of a basic TOW with MOIC according to the AMDF. 

16 A. Right. Right. 

17 Q. Did you ever have--same questions with regard to Mr. Williams. 

I 

18 Did you have discussions with him where the 84 35 number was used? 

19 A. Never. No. 

20 ql Would you have any reason to know whether he had knowledge, 

21 though, of its being the appropriate figure for a basic TOW with MOIC? 

22 A. Based on general conversation, yes. Yes. 

23 Qi General conversations with whom? Leachman? 

2* A. With Mr. Leachman and understand with Mr. Bentley. 

25 g. Okay. I'm going to make reference several times during the 









18 



UNCUSSIFIE 



18 



course of this deposition with the sworn testimony that you provided to 

2 the Department of Army Inspector General on 15 December 1986. Do you 

3 recall that — 

4 A. Right. 

5 Q. — interview? 

6 A. Right. 

7 Ql You stated in that testimony that the difference between 84 35 

8 and^3469 stuck out like a sore thumb. Is that a fair statement? 

9 A. Yeah. Yes. 

10 Q. And was it your sense that the Army was, as you said earlier, 

11 taking it on the chirt if they were going to be required to provide these 

12 missiles for the lower price? 

13 A. Sure. Sure. 
Was that a concern that was shared by more people than yourself? 
Yes. Yes. 

And who would that circle extend to? 
I would say my colonel, my deputy, my division chief, the item 

18 manager, you know; all who was involved at that time. 
1' Ql All right. Mr. Collier, in the DA IG testimony, you stated 
^^ that it was yovir understanding that a written message went forward from 
^1 someone here at the missile command to Department of the Army on this 
^^ issue of price. Do you have any recollection of that, and are you able 
^^ to enlighten us any on what that might have been about? 



A 


Ql 


15 


A. 


16 


Qt 


17 


A. 



A. Okay. As I recall, you know, the answer to that, it would 

25 -^'^ 

Still be yes, but now whether or not ^ seen that actual document, I 



UNCUSSIfiED 



19 



IINWSS 



19 



7 


A. 


8 


Q. 


9 


A. 


10 





11 


A. 


12 


fr 



think that my answer to that would be no. i don't think I saw that. 

2 ft Let's go through it this way. First of all, you did not 

3 yourself prepare such a document? 

4 A. No. 

5 Q. Second, if any such document were prepared, it would have been 

6 prepared, I assume, at the time of the first shipment. 
Right. 

Which was before you got involved. 
Right. 

If you saw a document then, it would be after the fact. 
Right. 
And it would have been in the course of what? reviewing the 

13 files for this project when you got involved? 
x4 A. Right. 

15 Q. Let me take a moment and read you your previous testimony, and 

16 let me make it clear, as I've said before we went on the record, we're 

17 simply looking for your best testimony today. 

18 A. Okay. 

19 Q. And all these matters took place over a year ago. People's 

20 memories get fuzzy; events get confused, so there's no effort here to 

21 try to impeach you in the sense of "You were telling the truth one time, 

22 and you're not this time," or vice versa. It's just simply to try to 
2^ refresh your recollection, and I want you to tell me in your best 

2* judgment what you recall. 
2^ A. Okay. 



UNCLASSIFIE! 



20 



UNClASSlFiED 



20 



Q You were asked this question, and I quote, "Did you know that — 

2 did you hear the rvunor that your command or your chain of command out 

3 here got some general officers involved in the pricing? Did you hear 

4 that rumor or that fact?" unquote. Answer: quote, "Well, again, I guess 

5 I have to go back to what I said earlier. I understood that we did 

6 challenge the price, and I know for a fact that a message was--I can't 

7 say it was a message or letter, but I know it was written, that it did 

8 go out. I don't know whether it went to a two-star or a three-star level, 

9 unquote. Now, that's what you stated then. Does that help refresh your 

10 recollection in any way or just confuse things further? 

11' A. Well, you know, I probably said it at that time, but I guess 

12 I shouldn't have been like absolute I knew for sure because, again, I 

13 was not involved at that time. I would have to go back — fact that I was 
-* told; I understood that. I should have never made the statement that 

15 I was sure that something went forward 'cause I don't. 

16 Q. In terms of what sent forward, whether written or oral — 
1^ A. Mm-hmm. 

18 Q. — is it your understanding that the issue raised was the 

19*8435 versus the 3469? 

20 A. 3469, that's correct. 

21 Q. And that's as opposed to, "We're going to have to replace these 

22 missiles. We might want to go with T0W2. That might cost, let's say, 

23 $11,000." 

2* A. Right. Right. 

25 Q, And you understood it was the former and not the latter? 



UNCLASSI 



21 



UNCIASS 



lOITM 



ILI 

A. That's right. 

2 0- Just to make sure I understand your testimony, is it your best 

3 recollection now that you aren't sure whether there was ever a written 

4 message on this point? 

5 A. I would have to say that's right. Right. 

6 Q. Could have been, but you're not sure. 

7 A. Right. There's no way I could be absolutely sure. 

8 £1 If there was such a message, would it show up in any files that 

9 still exist? 

10 A. Yeah, if it was. 

11 Ql Do you have 'access to those files at present? 
I can get access to them. 

Could you check on that and see if any such document exists? 
Yes. 
And when a request goes from Redstone Arsenal through Anniston 

16 Army Depot, in general what would take place? Would the item manager be 

17 the one who passed forward the request? 
Right. That's correct. 

And would he do that initially by a phone call? 
In this case, the answer's yes, but not in all cases. 
Okay, so in this case, a phone call was made by whom? ^4r. Coward'. 
Right . 

To Anniston Army Depot? 
Right . 
And was that followed by the MRO? 



12 


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UNCLASSIFIED 



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Right. 



UNCLASSI 



22 



i: 



Q. Hard copy? 

A. Right. 

Qi Do you know what information was on that MRO? 

A. The information should have been the quantity, NSN, part number, 
condition code, of the basic missile. 

Q. Would that include price normally? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In terms of the MRO for the first shipment, you weren't around 

then in terms of direct involvement, right? 

A. Right. 

fit When the MROs were prepared for the second and third shipments, 
you would have been involved in the general process, right? 

A. Right. 

Q. Did you have any direct involvement in preparing the MRO on the 

second or third shipment; in other words, physically providing the 
information or putting it onto the form? 

A. Negative. No. 

Qi Would you have seen the MRO after it was prepared? 

A. No. No. 

Q. Anniston Army Depot at some point would have prepared a 
document called the ammunition planning worksheet. Would you have had 
any reason to see that? 

A. No. 

Q. At the point at which the missiles are physically transferred 



UNCUSSIFIFn 



23 




23 



from the depot to Redstone. 

2 A. Right. 

3 0- What documents would be prepared in order to reflect that 

4 transfer? 

5 A. Well, the 1348. 

6 0. That's a standard Department of Defense form? 

7 A. Right. Right. We in turn call it a flimsy, but that's the form. 

8 CI DD 1348. 

9 A. Right. 

10 Q. And what kind of data does it have on it? 

11 A. It has basically the information — probably, you know, of the 

12 MRO; they had the NSN, part number, requisition number, price, you know. 

13 That's about all. 

14 Ql Ship from, ship to? 

15 A. Right. 

16 Q. And did you have any involvement with the 1348s once the 

17 second and third shipments got to Redstone? 

18 A. Well, I signed them. 

19 Ql So, as the missiles were transferred, the physical possession, 

20 and, I guess, in a technical and legal sense, the ownership, they were 

21 transferred from Anniston Army Depot, and physically here at Redstone, 

22 you signed the 1348 to take receipt of the missiles. 

22 A. Right. And the persons from DA would sign in his column, taking 

2*^ the shipment outright. 

^^ Ql So, on up the line. You transferred to DA, and you wouldn't 



WUSS/flffl 



24 



ONCLilSSIFIfD 



24 



have had a reason to know this at the time, but DA transferred them to 

2 the CIA, and at each stage, a 1348 was signed. 

3 A. Okay. Okay. 

4 0- Do you recall whether a price was on the 1348s that you signed 

5 when you received shipment from Anniston Army Depot? 

6 A. Okay. Some had price on them, and some did not. 

7 & Okay. Let me stop at this point and mark some exhibits, and 

8 there are some things I want to come back to, but it's probably best to 

9 do this by going through some documents, and I'm going to break them 

10 down into the first, second, and third shipments, and I'm going to run 

11 through some in the first shipment, even though I understand you didn't 

12 personally have any involvement, but I want to get the documents in the 

13 record. Let me provide that to you to mark as Exhibit 1 [handing it to 
* the reporter] ; give you a copy [handing it to the witness] ; give you a 

15 copy [handing it to COL Wallace). 

16 [The reporter marked Exhibit 1.] 

17 Q. Without addressing yourself to the specifics of this document, 

18 Mr. Collier, is this the form you're familiar with? 

19 A. Yes. 
This is MICOM Form 496, is that correct? 
Mm-hram. 

And is a Materiel Release Order, or an MRO? 
Mm-hram. 
All right, if you would look at the date, it's — I apologize for 

the poor copy, but this is a — it's been copied many times before, but that 



20 


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25 ^u 


a r\ntt 



LASSIFIED 



25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



25 



is January '86, and whether that's 21 or some other date is not clear, 

2 but if you'll look at the quantity block, it shows that we're talking 

3 about 11 000 missiles. The last three digits — the last four digits — of 

4 the national stock number, 1512 — would you know that to be a basic TOW 

5 with MOIC? 

6 A. Mm-hmin. 

7 Qi And if you look at the unit price, you'll see that it bears 

8 the figure $8j435, is that correct? 

9 A. Mm-hmm. 

10 & Now, to the best of your knowledge, would this form for the 

11 first shipment have been prepared by Mr. Coward as the unit manager? 

12 A. I'm trying to think. After getting involved with it, I really 

13 can't say because, again, I don't know. John, somehow or another, was 
■'* on travel, and I would have to leave that up to him because I'm not 

15 sure. 

16 Qi We'll ask him that question, but in the normal course of 
1^ business, the item manager would have prepared this? 

18 A. Right. 

19 ql And this would be the first document going to Anniston Army 

20 Depot providing them the basic data, would that be correct? 

21 A. Right. Which would follow up the phone call. 

22 g I want to have this marked as Exhibit 2 [the reporter marked 
2^ the exhibit], and I don't have other copies of that, so when you mark 
2* that, let me have it back. [The reporter returned it to Mr. Saxon.] 

25 I want to provide you with this to take a look at [handing it to the 



UNCUSSI 



26 



UNCUSSIBR 



26 



. witness]. This is a computer card that's generated at Anniston Army 

2 Depot. 

3 fl. Mm-hnmi. 

A 0. And if you would — let me ask you first, are you familiar with 

5 the use of this card? 

6 A. Well, yeah, you know, I've seen them after certain shipping 

7 transactions, yes. 

8 Qi And, if you notice, in this column under quantity [pointing it 

9 out], it has IjOOO — 

10 A. Mm-hmm. 

11 ft — so, we're talking about the first shipment. 

12 A. Mm-hmm. 

13 ol And it bears the price of $8^435. 
-* A. Right. 

15 ql Now, this came from the General Accounting Office, and the 

1* notations on here are from the GAO investigators, and it reflects that 

1^ Mrs. Jane Griffiths, who vrorks at Anniston Army Depot, received this 

1^ price of $8|(4 35 from MICOM. The note's here, "MICOM gave price, 

1' paren, John Coward." 

20 A. Mm-hmm. 

2^ 0- But you personally would not have been involved with the first 

22 

shipment and with that document, is that correct? 
2^ A. No. No. 



24 



Ql Exhibit 3, I ask that that be marked. [The reporter did so.] 



25 

Also pertains to the first shipment. This is something called the 



UNCLASSIFIED 



27 



llNCUSSIFe 



27 



ammunition planning worksheet, as I understand it, and if you'll look 

2 (indicating] under the shipped quantity, you see IjOOO for the first 

3 shipment and the total price is $8,435,000, so if you do some quick 

4 division, that works out to $8(435. Would that seem to be correct? 

5 A. Mm-hmm. 

6 Ql Have you ever seen this, the generic form before? Are you 

7 familiar with this worksheet? 

8 A. Yeah, I've seen it from depot transactions, yeah. 

9 Q. And it would be prepared in the normal course of business? 

10 A. Right. Correct. 

11 QL Let me have 'this series of documents marked as Exhibit 4 

12 (the reporter did so], give you a chance to look at those (handing the 

13 exhibit to the witness] . These are copies of DD Form 1348 prepared by 
- Anniston Army Depot. Again, for the first shipment, the quantity of 

15 1^000. Look in the upper right-hand corner. It appears the unit price 

16 of $8^435. 

17 A. Mm-hmm. 

18 Ql Is this what a DD Form 1348 locks like when it's prepared, 

19 before anyone has signed it to effect a transfer, to the best of your 

20 knowledge? 

21 A. Yes. 

22 Ql I'd like for these, this next group of documents, to be marked 

23 as Exhibit 5 (the reporter did so] , give you a chance to look at those 
2* [handing the exhibit to the witness]. These are not multiple copies of 
25 the same document. What they are are, as I understand it, for a shipment 



Mmm 



28 



UNClASSIFlEi 



28 



of IfOOO it's broken up into individual lots, so you would have more 

2 than one DD 1348 for 1|000 TOWs , is that correct? 

3 A. Mm-hmm. 

4 0- All right. These are the copies of the 1348 actually signed 

5 here at Redstone by Mr. Leachman for the first shipment, and if you 

6 can make it out, it bears the date of 29 January '86, and if you'll 

7 look in the upper right-hand corner, Mr. Collier, you'll see that at 

8 this point, the price does not appear on the 1348, is that correct? 

9 A. Mm-hmm. 

10 Q. Now, did you ever have any discussion with Mr. Leachman prior-- 

11 way after the second shipment and those documents yet — prior to them 

12 being prepared, did you ever have any discussion with Mr. Leachman about 

13 the fact that the first shipment did not bear a price on the transfer 
i.4 document? 

15 A. Never. No. 

16 Q. I want to show you, to complete the cycle on the first shipment- 

17 have this marked as Exhibit 6 [the reporter did so] , give you a chance 

18 to look at that [handing it to the witness]. You'll see that this is 
1-9 the DD 1348 that was signed by Major Christopher Simpson. You see the 

20 typed-in signature block "Major Chris Simpson" and then his signature 

21 showing that he received them from — on behalf of the office of the 

22 Deputy chief of Staff of Logistics, received them from the Missile 

23 Command, says shipped from Redstone Arsenal, and you'll note, also, on 
2* this one the price block is blank, is that correct? 

25 A. Right. 

Ti 



29 



IINWSSIFI 



29 



Q. Then the last stage of the transfer on the first shipment, 

2 have that marked as the next exhibit [the reporter marked Exhibit 7] 

3 is the document transferring them from the Army to the CIA, and, again, 

4 you would have had no occasion to see this document even if you had 

5 been involved in the first shipment, but it shows that Major Simpson 

6 had signed it and then he has transferred them to an individual — and 

7 the name is blacked out. This is the declassified version, and the 

8 White House removed the neime of that particular CIA individual who 

9 received them from Major Simpson, HQ DA Headquarters, Department of 

10 the Army, on 13 February '86, and if you'll look in the upper right-hand 

11 corner, you'll see that the price reappears now, and it's "3469, is that 

12 correct? 

13 A. Mm-hram. 

^ Q. Now, just for the record, and in the interest of fairness, 

15 you were not involved with the first shipment, had no involvement in 

^6 the preparation of these documents, is that correct? 
1-7 A. Right. 

^8 0, I want to focus on something that you will, hopefully, have 

^^ a little more knowledge of and direct involvement, and that is the 

20 second shipment. Let me have this exhibit marked as Exhibit 8 [the 

21 reporter did so]. And this is the MRO for the second shipment. The 

22 date is more legible — it's 16 May '86--and ask if you will take a look 
2^ at it. You'll note that the quantity is 508, so that would be the 

second shipment, correct? 

2 S 

A. Mm-hmm. 



UNCLASSIRED 



30 



UNCLASSIFIEO 



30 



0. And I don't suppose either of those signatures at the bottom 

2 is yours. 

3 A. No. 

4 Q. Do you recognize either of those? Is that W. R. Gibson at 

5 the bottom? 

6 A. Naw, I can't say that; it might be. 

7 0- And Gary W — someone. Do you know who would have been the 

8 approving authority for this document, who those individuals would be? 

9 A. That looks like Gary w. Akins there. 

10 g. And who is he? 

1-1 A. He would have been the--well, he would have been the branch 

12 chief. He would have been John Coward's branch chief at that time. 

13 g And would it be reasonable to assume that this MRO was prepared 
^* by Mr. Coward? 

15 A. Yes. 

^^ Q. All right, and if you'll look,, in addition to the date and 

^^ the quantity and the national stock number of 1512, which would indicate 
a basic TOW with MOIC, you'll see the unit price is $8,435, is that 



18 



19 



20 



21 



correct? 



A. Mm-hmm. 

0. I'd like for you to look at the next exhibit. When that's 



22 

it back to her. [The reporter marked Exhibit 9 and handed it to the 



marked, if you would, let him look at it, and then make sure you give 
23 



24 

witne 

Q. This would be the computer card, again prepared at- 



witness. ] 
25 




31 



mussM 



31 



A. At Anniston. 

2 0. --Anniston Army Depot, and you see the quantity of 503. 

3 A. Mm-hinm. 

4 Q. And GAO has noted that the 1512 indicates that that's the MOIC 

5 modified, and then if you look at the bottom, and the price is $8,4 35. 

6 A. Mm-hmra. 

7 [The witness returned Exhibit 9 to the court reporter.] 

8 Q. Let me give you the next document and have that marked as 

9 Exhibit 10 [the reporter did so], and this is the ammunition planning 

10 worksheet for shipment to — look under the shipped quantity; you'll see 

11 508; and total price is 4 thousand — excuse me; $4,284,980, and my 

i 

12 arithmetic says that works out to 8435. 

13 A. Mm-hmm. 

* [The witness returned Exhibit 10 to the court reporter.] 

15 Q. Let me have that marked as the next exhibit. [The reporter 

16 marked Exhibit 11.] And, if you would look at that, that is a DD 1348. 

17 [The reporter handed the exhibit to the witness.] And the quantity 

18 shows 50 8, so that would be for the second shipment, is that correct? 

19 A. Mm-hmm. 

20 Q, And there are no signatures on that, so that would appear 

21 to be the form prepared at Anniston Army Depot prior to the actual 

22 shipment, and what is the price reflected on that? 

23 fl. T435 [returning the exhibit to the reporter] . 

2* gi With regard to that exhibit, I'm going to simply include 
2^ the one as representive of all the additional documents for that lot. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



32 



UNCLASSIFIED 



32 



A. Okay. 

2 0- Let me have these next four pages marked as the next exhibit, 

3 going to be number 12, is that correct? [reporter confirmed] and ask 

4 that you take a look at that, Mr. Collier, and tell me what they reflect. 

5 [The reporter handed the exhibit to the witness.] 

6 A. They reflect the appropriate NSN, the price, which we said 

7 would be right — 

8 0. Would be what? 

9 A. -^8435. 

10 0- And this would be the DD 1348 that actually shows the transfer 

11 from Anniston Army Depot to the Army Missile Command. 

12 A. Right . 
And they were received by yourself, is that correct. 
That's right. 
That is your signature? 
That is right. 
And so when you — you actually took receipt of these on the 

18 second shipment and signed this card. It bears the price of $8^435, 

19 correct? 

20 A. Mm-hmm. 

21 Q. Do you remember taking note of that price at the time? 

22 A. No. Whether or not I--whether I actually signed it and looked 

23 at the corner there? No. No, I did not. I mean, if you mean just to 

2^ look at it and say, "Hey, I'm seeing something," no, but actually knowing 
25 that, that the NSN was there, the price was there, and everything was 



13 


Qt 


i4 


A. 


15 


0- 


16 


A. 


17 


0. 



UNCIASSIFIED 



33 



IJNMSSiFlED 



33 



there, yes. That, answer yes. But to actually look at the price-- 

2 Q. Did it register with you — 

3 A. No . 

i* Q. --that the price of the missiles you were signing for was 

5 $81435? 

6 A. NO. NO. No. 

^ 0- At the time that document came in, do you recall having any 

8 discussion with Mr. Leachman about the price issue and what price should 

9 show up in that block? 

10 A. No. No. No, 'cause at that time, when that came up, when I 

11 signed that for Anniston that day, again, Mr. Leachman had to have been 

12 gone to that quarterly--! don't think he was here, so I signed those 

13 forms and just made a record of them and put them in a folder and just 
* filed them away. 

15 Q. All right. Let me have this marked as the next exhibit and 

16 ask that you take a look at it [the reporter marked Exhibit 13], and 

1^ what that reflects is the DD 1348 showing transfer to Colonel Armbright. 

^8 A. Right. 

^' Qi And if you will notice, then, the price block is blank. 

2° A. Right. 

^^ Qi Do you know why that is? 

A. Well, again, today I have to say, you know, the original price 
was not there. Again, I'm assuming that we were directed by higher 
headquarters not to put it on there, on the transfer documents to the 
DA rep. There would not be a price on there. 



ONCLASSIFIED 



34 



UNCLASSIflfO 



34 



0. All right. This is an important point, so let me back up 

2 and make sure we cover it adequately. One can make that assumption--! 

3 can make that assumption — but I wasn't involved with them. 

4 A. Okay . 

5 a What do you know, and what do you specifically recall as to 

6 price on the 1348s that went forward from you that you signed v/hen 

7 either Simpson or, in second and third shipments, Armbright took 

8 possession, and from them to any subsequent transfers? Were you given' 

9 instructions that that price block should be changed in any way from 
10^8435? 

1^ A- No, but the way I understood it, the way we supposed to fill 

12 it out, you know, I filled out the form, had the form typed — I'm trying 

13 to think if one of our secretaries typed it — and when I got to the price 
''* block, it was just said, you know, "Leave it off." Now, who directed 

15 who, who actually told me to do that, I can't say that. 

^* 0- Is it your recollection that somebody told you to leave that 

1^ off, to leave price completely off? 



18 



19 



20 



21 



A. As I understood it, it was supposed to been done the same as 



before, okay. 



0- So, would you have gone and looked at the previous — 



A. To get the previous form and typed it as the other but changed 

^^ the serial number from COOl to C002 and everything else. 

23 

Qi All right. I need to know whether this is a conscious process 

24 

or not. Do you recall whether you were simply told, "Type up the transfer 

25 

document the same as the last one, "or whether there was specific mention 



ONMSSIFIE 



35 



of, "Type up the transfer document, and, as we did with the last one, 

2 don't put a price in there"? 

3 A. No, as I recall it now, it was just, "Type it up the same 
A as before," because, again, yeah, I'm almost sure. 

5 Ql Do you recall being told by anybody that the documents should 

6 not bear a price, that the price block should be left blank? 

7 A. I have to say now no, I don't believe I was. 

8 0- All right. Let's look at the third shipment; then we'll come 

9 back to this. Let me have this marked as the next exhibit to go through 

10 the sequence and have you take a look at that, and I think you' 11 find 

11 that it's simply the Mro for the third shipment [the reporter marked 

12 Exhibit 14], and if you'll look in the quantity block, you'll see that 

13 it says 500, and, if you would, tell me what the price block says. 

i 

i4 A. It looks like 8164, doesn't it? 

15 0- Is there any reason that you can think of why 8164 would be used 

16 as opposed to 8435 or any other number? 

l^ A. Right now, I can only say 'cause this is NSN and in 2507, and — 

18 0. Would that be the ITOW, I-T-O-W downgrade? 

15 A. Mm-hmm. And the reason it could have been different in the 

20 other one is that this particular missile had the newer battery in it. 

2^ It wouldn't have required the MOIC, so that particular price could be 

22 the — that would be my only rationale to say it would be different than 

2^^8435. Don't quite add up, because, you know, again, the MOIC, I guess 

'■ on average, we talk a little bit about 350, but, you know, if you look 

2^ at it, it's probably anywhere from 280 and above to 4 hundred and something. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



36 






mimw 



36 



Ql And would this document likely have been prepared by the item 

2 manager? 

3 A. Yes. 

4 & Let me ask you to look at the next exhibit, which is the computer 

5 card generated at Anniston Army Depot, and you can look at this copy. 

6 [The reporter marked Exhibit 15.] It shows a quantity of 500, which would 

7 be the third shipment. 
Mrci~hmni. 

And lists you or Mr. Coward as the Redstone point of contact. 
Mm-hmm. 
And what price is in that block? 



8 


A. 


9 


0- 


10 


A. 


11 


Qt 


12 


A. 


13 


QL 


.4 


A. 


15 


Ql 



They used 84 35. 
Okay. 

I don't know why they didn't use John's price. 

Let me have you look at the next exhibit, which is the 
16 ammunition planning worksheet for the third shipment [marked Exhibit 16] , 
1^ and if you look at the quantities, you'll see 500 and the total price 

18 of $4,217,500, which should work out to'^8435. 

19 A. -^84 35, yes. 

20 Ql Next is the DD 1348 prepared (marked Exhibit 17] at Anniston 

21 Army Depot before actual transfer for a quantity of 500. 

22 A. Mm-hmm. 

2^ Ql And you'll see that it bears a price 8435, is that correct? 



24 



25 



A. Mn— hnuD. 

Ql Let me give you this series of iterations of the same document. 



*wss/fe 



37 



ri 



^u 



.U 



37 



and that's the DD 1348 that actually reflects the transfer from Anniston 
Army Depot to Redstone [marked Exhibit 18]. If you'll note, there's a 
quantity of 500, again the price of '8435, and that bears your signature, 
is that correct? 

A. Right. 

Q. So, were you the official here who signed for the third 

shipment? 

A. Right. 

Q. Do you recall specifically taking note of the price that was 
in that block on this form? 

A. Negative. 'I did not at the time. 

Q. Do you recall any discussion with Mr. Leachman or anyone else 

about what price should be in that block? 

A. No. NO. 

0. Did anybody at any point raise the issue--as you've testified 
at this point, the price was clearly established. Any arguments to be 
made had been made, and the price was '3469. That was the price the 
Army was getting from the customer, whoever it was to be. 

A. Right. 

Q. Did you ever raise the point, "Wait a minute. We've got a 
problem. The paperwork looks curious or screwy because we're signing 
for these, and it shows 8435"? 

A. No . No . 

0. Can you think of why you might not have taken note of the 
price block? Was this simply a--sign for them; you knew what you 



DNCUSSIfe 



38 



UNCUSSIREi 



38 



were getting? 

2 A. Well, it--right. I knew — yeah. You could say that. 

3 & Would you normally have gone through this document and made 

4 sure all of the numbers and figures and quantities were right? 

5 A. You know, as a norm, you say the answer's yes, but then after 

6 you handle so many of them, especially the same type, you know, once 

7 you see basic information, quantity, NSN, you know, other data on the 

8 form becomes, you know, something like a standard; it's just there, you 

9 know: price, location, you know, pallet size, and all that, that wouldn't-- 

10 I wouldn't worry about scrutinizing, you know. 

11 Q. What happened physically as you took possession and signed 

12 for these? Now, my understanding is contemporaneously, like at the same 

13 time, there would have been someone on the scene — I guess Colonel 
* Armbright — 

15 A. Right. 

1^ Q. Then you would have — who you then would have signed them over to. 

1^ A. Right. 

1^ Q. So, the document that he signed would have been prepared by whom? 

^' A. Our office. 

2° Ql Did anyone take note of the fact that the document he signed 

didn't bear a price? 

A. Well, you know, the first two times, I'm sure we did, but, again, 

by direction, it was not there, and I don't think nobody ever challenged it. 
Ql Let me ask as the final exhibit you look at this document 

[marked Exhibit 19] , which reflects that these were then transferred 



U.r.. ««^j 



21 
22 
23 
24 
25 




39 



UNElKSlBi 



39 



from Redstone to Colonel Armbright and then from him to the individuals 

2 with the CIA whose names have been redacted. 

3 A. Mm-hmm. 

4 & And you'll see the price block; it shows "^469. 

5 A. Right. 

6 Q. Now, what we're trying to figure out, Mr. Collier is what went 

7 on here — 

8 A. Right. 

9 g. — and you may wonder, "Why did you walk me through all these 

10 documents that I didn't prepare and that I didn't see at Anniston Army 

11 Depot or whatever or those with regard to the first shipment, which I 
^2 wasn't involved with?" and there's a simple reason for doing that, and 
13 that is to say this: all of the documents prepared here, to start with, 
'* show the price of 8435. 

15 A. Mm-hmm. 

16 Q. The MRO. 
1^ A. Mm-hmm. 

1^ Q. On all three shipments, or came close on the third shipment, 

19 ^164- 

2° A. Mm-hmm. 



Q. — and then we go to Anniston Army Depot, and the computer card 



21 

that they generate initially bears the 8435 price, as does the ammunition 

23 

planning worksheet. 

24 

^ A. Right. 

^^ Ql As does the DD 1348 that they prepare, which ostensibly would 



ICIASSIHEB 



40 



ONOIASSIFI 



come here. 

2 A. Right. 

3 Q. And the blank ones, unsigned by you, which were prepared at 
A Anniston Army Depot, show that price. 

5 A. Mm-hmm. 

6 0. And then when they get to this stage and they're signed by 

7 you, they show 84 35. 

8 A. Mm-hmm. 

9 0. And then from the point at which we transfer them to Major 

10 Simpson or Colonel Armbright-- 

11 A. Mm-hmm. 

12 Q. --we have no price. 

13 A. Mm-hmm. 

-* Q. And then at the point at which they transfer them to the CIA, 

15 the price reappears — 

16 A. Mm-hmm. 

J 

17 Q. — and it's the 3469 price. 

18 A. Right. 

19 Q. And what we're trying to figure out is why and what happened. 

20 Do you have a judgment as to how the price disappears on the forms that 

21 are prepared here and that are executed here in transferring them from 

22 Redstone to Department of Army? 

23 A. Okay. Well, again, we here will prepare it, you know, business 
2* as usual, so it wouldn't have been no — you know, like I'm talking about 
2' in the item manager's case, we would, you know — everything we done was 



«Ncussife 



41 



,ur— - 

right, you know, the right price, right NSN, reflect the latest, whatever. 

2 Now, you know, again-- 

3 Q. But you said that your office would have prepared the form 

4 that reflects no price. 

5 A. Right. 

6 Q. Are you familiar with any instance in the past where to effect 

7 a transfer from Redstone to some other party using a DD Form 1348, you 

8 would have no price in the unit price block? 

9 A. No. No. 

10 0- So, this would have been the first and only time that happened? 

11 A. Right. Right. 

12 Q. 1 may have asked this before, but did you take note of the fact 

13 that the time those forms were prepared that it had no price in the block? 
■• A. I think I did, but I, you know, really made no comment because, 

15 again, the first shipment didn't have it, and I was told on the second 

16 shipment to type the form the same as the first one except change the 

17 serial number from COOl to C003. 

18 Q. Do you recall being told by anyone that there was to be no 

19 price on the document? 

20 A. Not to be no price but just told to type it the same as the 

21 first. 

22 Q. Do you recall being directed by Mr. Leachman that there would 

23 be no reference to price? 

24 A. No. No, he did not. In other words, his direction before 

25 that was type the same form the same as the first one. 



42 




0. All right, but let me walk you through a few of the statements 

2 that you made with the Department of the Army IG. 

3 A. Okay . 

4 Q. See if this helps to refresh your recollection in any way. Now, 

5 you were asked about the 1348s as they were prepared. Question, quote: 

6 "Do you recall what price was put on the shipment?" unquote. Answer: 

7 "I don't recall, but I can say it was probably the 84 35 because that 
3 was the price," unquote. Question, quote: "Did you have anything to 

9 do with preparing of the 1348 that transferred the missiles from the 

10 project office to the Department of Army DCSLOG, D-C-S-L-0-G?" unquote. 

11 Answer: "Yes." There' was further discussion about this, and you 

12 stated, quote, "We had all that information typed on it," unquote. 

13 Question: "Notice there is no price on that document," unquote. Answer, 
' quote: "Right," unquote. Question, quote: "Was that intentional?" unquote. 

^5 Answer, quote: "It was directed that way," unquote. Question: "Directed 

^6 by whom?" unquote. Answer, quote: "By DA," unquote. Some further 

^^ discussion about this point, and you said, "Well, no, not DA itself 

^8 but Mr. Leachman." Question, quote: "So, Mr. Leachman, then, basically 

^' told you that because he did the first one, is that right?" unquote. 

^^ Answer, quote: "Right. He was just saying--well, he just said, 'This 

^^ is how they want us to fill them out,'" unquote. Question, quote: "Why 

^^ would you leave the price off, though? I mean, if you've got--if you 

^^ are putting down a basic missile with MOIC?" unquote. Answer: "Uh-huh." 

^ Question, quote: "The right stock number," unquote. Answer: "Uh-huh." 

^ Question, quote: "The right nomenclature, 71 alpha 2; why would you 



43 




43 



leave the price off?" unquote. Answer, quote: "Because that is how I 

2 understood that it was directed to be done here. It was not put on the 

3 first document, so the second document was consistent with the first," 

4 unquote. You stated further, quote, "The price was not on the first one, 

5 so the price wasn't on the second one," unquote. Then you continued, 

6 quote, "Because, as I understood, again, it was directed that there 

7 would be no reference to price on the document," unquote. Question, 

8 quote: "Okay, so you were told in an earlier conversation there would 

9 be no reference to price?" unquote. Answer, quote: "Right," unquote. 

10 Question, quote: "And Mr. Leachman, I mean, yes; Chris Leachman told you 

11 that?" unquote. Answter, quote: "Right," close quotes. And then your — 

12 the question is put as to why you would do it, and so forth, and you 

13 answered, quote: "Well, you know, again, like I say, in this case, if 
^ you were directed not to, you know, you don't do that," unquote. Now, 

15 I walked through this to see if any of that refreshes your recollection. 

16 A. Right. 

1^ 0- And let me specifically ask you whether that sounds correct 

18 as to what your testimony was at the time. 

^5 A. It's correct in there except for one point. You know, at that 

20 time I guess I shouldn't have been so absolutely — in other words, making 

21 an absolute true statement that Mr. Leachman said. In other words, putting 

22 him there. If he directed it. 



23 



24 



25 



0- I clearly understand that you would not have direct knowledge 
of who told Mr. Leachman anything — 



A. Right. 



ONCLMSIFiEO 



44 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



44 



Q. --unless you were standing — 

2 A. Right. 

3 Q. — in the presence of Mr. Leachman and someone else. 

4 A. Right. 

5 Q. Although you could have indirect knowledge if he told you that 

6 somebody else told him. 

7 A. Right. 

8 & My question to you is, as to your best recollection today, were 
9- you told that there was to be no reference to price on the 1348 that was 

10 used to transfer control to the office of the Deputy Chief of Staff of 

11 Logistics? 

12 A. Well, again, on the second one, I was told to type as the first 

13 one, and there was no price there, and naturally, we looked, and we saw 
-* that, but, you know, didn't question it. On the last shipment, you know, 

15 we were told by the DA rep that he wanted the 3469 in that block, and 

16 that's what— 

^^ 0- And by the DA rep, do you mean Colonel Armbright? 

1* A. Right. 

^' Qi Who was told that by Colonel Armbright? 

A. Well, I'm sure it came into Colonel Lincoln's office, and I'm 
thinking that — I'm trying to see; did I have any personal conversation 

22 * 

With him about that? I can't say that, but I do know that once we typed 

23 i 

the form, we did put the 3469 in there this time because that s what 



20 



21 



DA wanted. 
25 



Okay. 



UNCLASSinED 



45 



A. Okay. 

2 0. Let me make sure I understand your testimony as to the form of 

3 the second shipment. You were told to type that form as it had been 

4 typed for the first shipment? 

5 A. Right. 

6 ft In the process of preparing that, whether you physically typed 

7 it or directed someone to type it, did someone take note of the fact 

8 that in taking the identical data — 

9 A. Mm-hmm. 

10 Q. — from one form to another, that there was no price there? 
No. ' 
You don't recall-- 
No. 

— anyone flagging that? 
No. Nobody challenged; no. No. 
Do you recall Mr. Leachman ever telling you either, a, to leave 

1^ the price off, specifically, or, b, that there was to be no reference to 

18 price on these forms? 

^^ A. Neither one. It was absolutely, you know — the statement was, 

20 "Type the second form the same as the first," okay. 

^^ Q. All right, now, you don't have to agree with my conclusion, 

but as I read your DA IG testimony, it's fairly unequivocal. It didn't 
seem to be a lot of uncertainty as to the fact that you were told there 
would be no reference to price and that Mr. Leachman said that. Is it 
your statement today that you just maybe weren't correct in those 



11 


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statements that you made? 

2 A. Well, you know, I was incorrect in those statements when it 

3 comes out so absolute like I put it there. You know, again, the discussion 

4 was "Type the same as the first," and I guess if anything came up, maybe 

5 indirectly, you know, he may have said, "Okay, we're supposed to make 

6 no reference to price," you know, and, again, you know, I can only assume 

7 that, you know, it was directed from the top that we do it that way. But 

8 I shouldn't have never had anything so for certain, sure, that "Hey, this 

9 is right." I shouldn't ^ever made statements like that. 

10 Q. When Armbright signed the documents receiving the missiles from 

11 you, do you recall if 'he made note of any of the data that was on the 

12 form? 

13 A. Well, on the second one, he went through it, and he said, 

^ "Mm-hmm, mm-hmm," you know, and far as there was no price there, there 

15 was no challenge there, okay. He signed it. 

16 Ql Do you recall if that was specifically discussed, the fact that 

17 there was no price on that form? 

18 A. No, he didn't say anything, but he did notice in looking at 

19 it; he checked it. He had the first form that Major Simpson signed with 

20 him; probably was a copy of it, but he made sure everything tracked and 

21 that the serial number was the thing they changed, and he signed it. 

22 Ql Did you ever look at the copy of the form he had that Major 
^^ Simpson signed for the first shipment? 

2* A. No, but I had a copy. A copy was on — in our files. Chris 

^^ already had a copy of that from the first shipment. Now, on the third 



icussiFe 



47 




47 



shipment, again, when Colonel Armbright signed those, we looked at it, 

2 and he wanted to make sure that the "'34 6 9 was there. I do know on that 

3 one it was made a reference--said, "Okay." We went across, and that 

4 price, "Okay." Everything was checked, and he signed it. 

5 0- He did not physically in your presence turn to anyone and then 

6 convey them to another party, did he? which party you would not have 

7 known at the time, but, again, that would be the CIA. 

8 A. Negative. No. 

9 Qi We will at the conclusion of this investigation be writing 

10 a report and making recommendations for how things should be done 

11 differently in the future, if at all. Do you have any recommendations 

12 for us, for anyone, either at your level or higher up, as to how these 

13 transactions should be handled in the future? 

* A. Well, you know, again, it's a recommendation, first of all, 

15 that everything be put in writing, that we shouldn't accept anything 

16 from a phone call, and that whoever 's directing the topside, you know, 
1^ especially when they make reference to price, that a call to someone 

18 at the local command who has the actual responsibility, who the item 

19 is managed by, as for price, any reference NSN types and all should be 

20 discussed before a transaction is made and not someone topside who's not 

21 totally familiar with the process. 

22 Q. If I understand what you're saying, you think that the Army 

23 should have a system that, for any requirement, the need for the customer, 
2* whoever it is, they should know in advance before approval is given the 

25 nomenclature, the stock number, the price, the quantity, and all of 



UNCUSSifitii 



48 



mmwE 



those things with regard to what they're being asked to transfer. 

2 A. Right, all the different types that you have simply because 

3 of modifications. You know, the thing that was old, old has probably 

4 got changed along the way, so, you know, again, far as record keeping, 

5 so you'd have an audit trail, you do keep the old number in there, so 

6 you can come forward. 

7 Q. If the Army happened to already have such a system, would it 

8 be your recommendation that it be used in the future? 

9 A. Yes, which is the AMDF. 

10 Q. Final question for you, which I hope you'll understand I'm 

11 obligated to ask. Has there been anyone who has talked to you about 

12 the testimony you were to provide today and in any way tried to influence 

13 what you've told us? 

' A. Negative. No. No. 

15 MP. SAXON: Okay. Mr. Collier, let me say on behalf of both the Senate 

16 and the House committees, that we appreciate your time. I know we kept 

17 you cooling your heels all morning while we interviewed some other 

18 individuals-- 

19 WITNESS: Hey, that's okay. 

20 MR. SAXON: — and we appreciate your time and appreciate your testimony. 

21 It's been very helpful. 

22 WITNESS: Okay. 

2^ MR. SAXON: Thank you. 

2* [Whereupon, at 1:13 p.m., August 10, 1987, the taking of the deposition 
was concluded. ] 



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■t>EPOSITION OF GARY COLE 
Tuesday, June 9, 1987 

^X.S. House of Representatives, 

Select Cotmittee to investigate covert 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Vashington, D.C. 



Ck>ininittee Hearings 

of the 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 







Partially Declassified/Released on 

under provisions of E.O. 12356 
by N Menan, National Security Council 



OFFICE OF THE CL^K 
OfflU of Otnclal Beporten 



UNCUWHI-^^^-^— 



85 



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8 
9 
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25 



DEPOSITION OF GARY COLE 

Tuesday, June 9, 1987 

U.S. House of Representatives, 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 

The Committee met, pursJiant to call, at 1:25 p.m., in 
Room B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, with Patrick 
Carome presiding. 

On behalf of the House Select Committee: Patrick Carome. 
On behalf of the Witness: Phyllis Provost McNeil, 
Attorney, Office of General Counsel, Central Intelligence 
Agency, and Rhonda M. Hughes, Legislative Counsel, Central 
Intelligence Agency. 



Partially Declassified/Released on I'^-I^'^l 
under provisicns of £.0. 12356 
by N. Menan, National Security Council 



HroMTO^CTLlr 'Wl.'U^ 



ONJtASSffHT 



1 Whereupon, 

2 GARY COLE 

3 having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness herein, 
^ and was examined and testified as follows: 

5 MR. CAROME: Mr. Cole, for the record, my name is 

6 Patrick Carome. I am staff counsel for the House Select 

7 Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran. 

8 Our committee was established pursuant to a resolution and 

9 rules. The CIA has previously been provided with copies of 

10 those rules. I have also today given you a set of those rules 

11 and the resolution. The mandate of our committee is to 

12 investigate the circumstaaees surroun4iS9 prijttrily the 'Iran 

13 affair but also the United States Government's involvement 

14 with the contras and this deposition is being conducted 

15 pursuant to those rules. 

16 EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

17 BY MR. CAROME: 

18 Q Could you begin by stating briefly your educational 

19 background and the positions which you have held since 

20 graduating from law school? 

21 A Certainly. I graduated from Williams College in 

22 Williamstown, Massachusetts in 1981. After working for a 

23 year with a solicitor's firm in London, I attended Stanford 

24 Law School, Stanford University in Palo Alto, California. 

25 I graduated from there in 1985 and after taking the bar exam 



Jiii(mmi£iu 



87 



Bf!5t'iafl»T 



— -• • ■ ■-<-••'•«■•^^■«i^^,.■,-..■..^^,^.. 

1 I joined the Office of General Counsel at the Central 

2 Intelligence Agency where I have been an attorney-advisor 

3 since October of 1985. 

4 Q What is the position that you have held since you 

5 began work -- 

6 A Attorney-advisor is the term. 

7 Q And what department or division of the Office of 

8 General Counsel have you been working in? 

9 A I have been working since I Ccime on board in the 

10 Intelligence Law Division. 

11 Q And how many lawyers are in that Division? 

12 A At present, we have, let's see, five attorneys- in 

13 the Division. A total of five. 

14 Q And to whom do you report? 

15 A I report to David Roseman, who is the Division 

16 Chief. 

17 Q Is that the person you have been reporting to since 

18 coming into the CIA? 

19 A Essentially. We had a reorganization about 

20 approximately a year ago. When I came on board Bernard 

21 Makowka was the Division Chief, David Roseman was the Deputy 

22 Chief. I have effectively been reporting to David, though, 

23 throughout my tenure at the Agency. 

24 Q And that would apply to the period December 1985 

25 and January 1986; is that right? 



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25 



A That's correct. 

Q Have you been involved in the preparation of covert 
action findings at the Agency in your position? 
A Yes, I have. 




89 



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Q What month did you begin working at the CIA? I'm 
not sure we covered that. 

A I began in October of 1985, early October. 

Q Did there come a time when you became involved in 
the preparation of a finding pertaining to Iran? 

A Yes. 

Q And if you could be as precise as possible, wh^n was 
the first time you heard anything aoout a finding pertaining 
to Iran? 

A January 2nd, 1986. 

Q You have a firm recollection that that's the first 
time that that subject ever came up with respect to yourself? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q What happened on January 2nd, 1986, to make you 
aware of this finding matter? 

A I was called into Mr. Roseman's office, who advised 
me that the General Counsel wanted us to work on preparation 
of the finding. 

Q Who was present in Mr. Roseman's office at this 



time? 



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A Just the two of us. 

Q And where is his office in location to yours? Are 
they nearby to one another? 

A Oh, within -- at the time, within 30 or 40 feet. I 
was about three offices away. 

at^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K is that 
correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q And what did Mr. Roseman say to you, as best you 
can recall? 

A He mentioned that the General Counsel had been 
pleased with our work 

and r.ad wanted us to help in 
this particular area. He gave me a general description of the 
scope of the finding and asked me to take a first crack at 
drafting it. 

Q What was the general description of the scope of 
the finding that he gave you, if you can recall? 

A Well, he mentioned that assistance was to be 
provided to Iran. I do not have a firm recollection as to at 
that point what sort of assistance was described. But that 
was the general description that he gave me. He did not have 
a lot of detail at that meeting. 

Q Did he tell you anything else about the finding and 
what was to be done? 




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A My recollection is no, that there wasn't a lot of 
additional information provided at that first meeting. 

Q And that's on a Thursday; is that right? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you recall about what time during the day that 
you met with Mr. Roseman? 

A I would guess it was probably, oh, perhaps mid to 
late afternoon, perhaps around 4 o'clock. 

Q And how was the work to be done as Mr. Roseman laid 
it out? Did he explain what needed to be done? 

A He did in some generality. We, as I mentioned, had 
o n ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^HI^^^^^^^^^H, 
context had had access to other finiings. And he suggested 
that I have recourse to those for use in determining the 
format of this draft. He asked me to stay late that evening 
and prepare a first draft, which I did. 

Q Did Mr. Roseman mention anything to you about the 
fact that there had already been some involvement of the CIA 
in similar subjects, and, for instance, that there had 
already been arms transactions with Iran? Did he at this 
January 2nd meeting mention that to you? 

A No, he did not. 

Q Was there any .discussion at all of any activity 
along these lines having already transpired in that discussion 



with Mr. Roseman? 



UNCimiElEIl. 



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1 A No, none. 

2 Q Was there any discussion of the fact that there had 

3 already been a finding drafted or signed at that point? 
^ A No. No, there was not. 

5 Q You have since learned that there was a November 

6 finding drafted and perhaps signed; is that right? 

7 A That's right. 

8 Q When did you learn that fact? 

9 A I don't believe I became aware of the possibility 

10 of such a finding until the 'fetory actually went public, which 

11 would have been in November, late November or early December 

12 of 1986. 

13 Q You believe that you didn't hear anything about a 

14 1985 finding ~ 

15 A No. 

16 Q — on the Iran matter until the story broke in the 

17 press; is that right? 

18 A That's correct. That's correct. 

19 Q And does the same go for learning any information 

20 about a weapons shipment or shipments to Iran in 1985? Did 

21 you learn anything about that before the story broke? 

22 A Well, I mean, as I mentioned, there were various 

23 sorts of assistance that Mr. Roseman described to me at that 

24 January 2nd meeting. It was my understanding that that 

25 assistance might take the form of military, you know, of 



UAicii.imii. 



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1 transfers of military materiel. So at that point on January 

2 2nd I was aware that the possibility existed that their 

3 shipments might have been made. I didn't learn that shipments 

4 had actually been made, though, until the story -- once again, 

5 until the story broke in November of '86. 

6 Q Mr. Roseman must have explained in a bit more 

7 detail what it was that this finding was to provide for if 

8 you were going to be drafting one that night. 

9 A Uh-huh. 

10 Q Can you think of anything else that he told you 

11 about the anticipated activity? 

12 A My recollection was that he described a range pf 

13 assistance that would have included intelligence support, I 

14 believe; communications, military materiel, as I mentioned; 

15 perhaps logistical support in some other form. That is really 
15 about the extent of my recollection of what he described at 

17 that first meeting. 

18 Q And at that first meeting, did he explain who it 

19 was this support was to be provided to? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q And who was that? 

22 A To Iran. And I really cannot recollect whether he 

23 gave me any more detail at that meeting as to who precisely 

24 within Iran was to be the recipient of these systems. 

25 Q Did Mr. Roseman in that first meeting mention 



lINnii^QiFim 



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24 
25 



tMl^iOr 



10 



1 anything about Israel in connection with the activities? 

2 A My recollection is that he did not in that first 

3 meeting. 

4 Q Did he make any reference to the fact that other 

5 countries would perhaps play a role in the anticipated 

6 activities? 

7 A I believe that he did, yes. I believe there was a 

8 reference to a third country. 

9 Q Did the subject of whether or not the finding which 

10 was contemplated -- strike that question. 

11 Mr. Roseman was clear at that point that what needed 

12 to be done was draft a finding; is that right? 

13 A I believe that he understood that those were the 

14 instructions from the then General Counsel, yes. 

15 Q And the then General Counsel was Stanley Sporkin; 

16 is that right? 

•J7 A That's correct. 

ig Q And was it your understanding that Mr. Roseman had 

19 received these instructions directly from Mr. Sporkin? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q That the two of them had talked together about this 

22 matter; is that right? 

23 A That's right. 
Q Were you aware at that time or did Mr. Roseman, in 

that first meeting, identify any other persons who would be 

lililCli<lSMIL,» 



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^ involved in the activity? 

2 A In the activity of drafting the finding or — 

3 Q Let's start there — in the activity of drafting the 
* finding. 

5 A Did he mention whether other persons would be 

6 involved? 

7 Q That's right. That's my question. 

8 A I believe he made reference to the fact that one 

9 other component in our office may become involved and had been 
10 involved generally in the preparation of covert action 

H findings. 

12 Q And what component was that? 

13 A The Intelligence Community Affairs Division. 

14 Q Is that the Division in which at that time Mr. 

15 Clarke, George Clarke, and Mr. George Jameson were involved? 

16 A They were the Chief and Deputy Chief respectively at 

17 that point, that's right. 

18 Q And what do you recall Mr. Roseman saying about their 

19 role? 

20 A Well, to the best of my recollection, he said that 

21 as a general matter covert action findings were not prepared 

22 in the Intelligence Law Division. As a rule, covert action 

23 was handled out of the Intelligence Community Affairs 

24 Division. 

25 He indicated that because the General Counsel had 



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expressed his satisfaction with the work we had donel 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hthat we were 
at drafting this finding. I believe he mentioned, though, 
that there was a possibility that that Division may become 
involved because it was their area of expertise within the 
office. 

Are^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H and Iran 
finding we are talking about the only two findings that you 
have ever worked on? 

A Yes. -^g- 

Q And are they the only two findings that the 
Division in which you were working: ^iad ever ^rked on, at 
least as far as you know? 

A No, that's not accurate. 

Q Are there other findings since — 

A Since that time? 

Q Yes. 

A I'm really not certain. 

Q Are you aware of others prior to that time? 

A Well, I am — 

Q In which your Division had worked on? 

A Th^'s. corzect./^^Jsiggrsyil^fiiv^^ly learned that 

my then Division Chief, Bernard Makowka, had been involved in 
the preparation of the earlier finding that you referred to. 

Q I see. But other than that finding and the 



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are you aware of any other findings 
in which your Division has been involved? 

A No. 

Q Either before or after; is that right? 

A Not to the best of my knowledge. 

Q Did Mr. Roseman offer any explanation other than the 
fact that your work had been appreciated on the other matter 
as a reason for involving you and he on this Iran finding? 

A No. No, he did not. 

Q Did Mr. Roseman say anything about whether this was 
a particularly sensitive matter at that first meeting? 

A I don't think he had to say it. I mean, I think it 
was understood that it was extremely sensitive. 

Q And what was it that made it seem immediately to be 
a sensitive matter? 

A Well, because the fact that military shipments were 
perhaps being contemplated to Iran. 

Q And why would that be sensitive? 

A It was, I guess, our feeling at the time was that 
because we had never -- we had not come across such a 
proposal in the past that we assumed it would, you know, would 
be an extremely sensitive matter. He did not make any state- 
ments to that effect but I think we both treated it in that 



manner . 



About how long did this first meeting with Mr. 

IIMriiQCirirD— 



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Roseman last; do you recall? 

A I don't recall exactly. I would estimate perhaps 
45 minutes. 

Q Did Mr. Roseman have any documents that he was 
referring to, any notes that he had taken from this 
conversation with Mr. Sporkin or other things that he was 
reviewing during this meeting? 

A I really do not recall. 

Q And what specifically did Mr. Roseman tell you to 
do after the meeting was over? 

A He asked me to prepare a first draft of the 
finding. 

Q And did you do that? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q And when did you prepare the first draft? 

A That — beginning that afternoon and into that 
evening. 

Q Did Mr. Roseman say anything during the first 
meeting about the subject of notification of Congress? 

A I believe that he did, yes. 

Q And do you recall what he said on that subject? 

A I think he asked me to take a look at the language 
that had been used in previous findings concerned reporting 
obliMtions to Congress and to consider that lanaguage when I 
was preparing my draft. 



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Q What do you mean consider it? What does that mean? 

A To, I guess, to determine whether it might be 
appropriate to use similar language in this finding. As I 
subsequently found, the language was quite similar for, you 
know, for virtually all findings. And I think it was one of 
the factors he said that, of course, had to be included in, 
you know, in preparing a draft finding. 

Q Did the concept of not notifying Congress come up? 

A I don't believe it came up at that first meeting, 
no. 

Q Were you aware. that that was an option that at least 
might be considered at that time? 

A I was aware of it because my recollection is that 
in another finding or draft finding — and I'm afraid I cannot 
recall which finding it was — that I had access to in 
preparing the earlier finding -- there had been language to 
the effect that Congress was not to be notified, that the 
President directed Congress not to be notified. I don't 
recall, though, that it was actually explicitly addressed in 
my first meeting with Mr. Roseman on January 2nd. 

Q Okay. .,.«,♦-- •-•t-' 

MR. CAROME: Would you mark this as Exhibit 1, 
please? 

(Exhibit No. GC-1 was marked 



for identification.) 

iiKiPi AQQinrn 



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16 



BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Mr. Cole, I show you what has been marked as 
"^ Exhibit 1 to this deposition and ask you if you have ever 
seen this document? 

I'll state for the record that it's what appears to 
" be a copy of what's become known as the November 1985 mini 
' finding and a cover document. 

8 Did you see this document at any time prior to 

9 November of 1986? 

10 A If I can just take a quick moment to read it over. 

11 Q Sure. 

12 (Pause) 

13 THE WITNESS: If you Could just repeat the question. 

14 BY MR. CAROME: 

15 Q Did you see either part, either page, of what's been 

16 marked as Exhibit 1 prior to November 1986? 

17 A To the best of my recollection, I did not. 

18 Q Is it possible that the finding, which is part of 

19 this exhibit, was one of the items that you looked at when 

20 you were going through all those findings? 

21 A It is possible, but to the best of my recollection, 

22 no, it was not, it was not among them. 

23 Q After the meeting with Mr. Roseman, I take it you 

24 then immediately began work to prepare a draft finding; is 

25 that right? 



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A That's correct. 

Q And the first thing you did was look at findings 
that have been drafted before; is that right? 

A That's correct. 

Q Where did you find the previously drafted findings? 

A Well, certain of the findings were kept in a secure 
safe in the office. And in fact, I believ2 I still had one or 
two of them which I had kept in secure storage in our 
registry because I had worked with the 

that I referred to earlier^T As I 
mentioned, I don't have an exact recollection of when we had 

on^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^^^^B but 
within a week or two and I believe I still had many of the 

u s e d ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 
do not recall whether I — it is possible that I went over and 
inquired for additional findings from the Intelligence 
Community Affairs people who had access to them. But I believe 
that certainly the majority of what I worked with I already had 
in my files at that time. 

Q And what did you do after reviewing all the findings? 

A The previous findings gave me a sense as I had also 
a c q u i r e d^^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l t h e 
language, the format, the tone, et cetera, that was used in 
preparing the finding. I used the language that was certainly 
the language that you see at the top of your exhibit, which 

iiMPi Accinrn 



102 



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UNCU^SifeT 



18 



refers to the act which authorizes the issuance of findings 
and included that language. 

I then take — taking the directions that Mr. 
Roseman had given me concerning the types of assistance to be 
' offered to the Iranians, used language along the lines of 
° what had appeared in previous findings in describing that in 
' my draft. 

° Q And did you complete a draft that evening? 

A Yes, I did. 

MR. CAROME: Could you please mark that as the 
next exhibit? 

(Exhibit No. GC-2 was marked 
for identification.) 
BY MR. CAROME: 

15 Q Mr. Cole, I show you what has been marked as 

16 Exhibit 2 and ask you to take a look at that and tell me 

17 whether or not that is the draft that you completed that 

18 night? 

19 A If I can just have a moment to look it over. 

20 Q Please look it over. 

21 A Thank you. 

22 (Pause) 

23 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, yes, this 

24 is the finding I prepared that night. 



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BY MR. CAROME: 

Q And did you actually have it typed out that night, 
and would it have been in this form before you went home that 
day? 

A I really don't recall. I think in all likelihood I 
would have asked a secretary to stay late. The matter 
certainly seemed to me of sufficient importance to warrant 
that. 

Q Had Mr. Roseman told you anything about whether this 
was an urgent matter? 

A Yes. 

Q And what did he say on that subject? 

A Yes, it was to be completed, absolutely, as soon as 
possible . 

Q And did you take that to mean get a draft done that 
night? 

A You bet I did. 

Q And I note that this Exhibit No. 2 includes an 
introductory paragraph that specifically contemplates a report 
to Congress — 

A That's correct. 

Q — of the activity. 

A That's correct. 

Q And did you understand that was consistent with the 
instructions that Mr. Roseman had a wen you? 



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A Yes. As I mentioned, we had not explicitly discussed 
congressional reporting, to the best of my recollection. 

Q And you would have viewed it to have been somewhat 
extraordinary to have the opposite direction, namely, a non- 
report to Congress; is that correct? 

A No, I wouldn't necessarily have taken that position. 
As I said, I didn't have an experience in preparing covert 
action- findings to determine what was, you know, ordinary or 
extraordinary. So I really couldn't have made a conclusion one 
way or the other. 

But he had indicated to me to work from the drafts 
of previous findings, the majority of which had included' 
language that, you know, that Congress was to be notified in 
accordance with the National Security Act. 

Q In the area under Description, there's a reference 
to working with selected foreign liaison services. 

A Uh-huh. 

Q Do you know what that was a reference to, or what 
that's in there? 

A I did not know that at the time. No, I did not know 
what that was referring to at the time. 

Q Had Mr. Roseman told you there needs to be a 
reference to liaison, foreign liaison? 

A As I mentioned earlier, I believe he had made 
reference to the fact that there may be third countries 




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involved. I don't recollect that he mentioned specifically 
what their involvement would be. I believe that this 
language was included in at least one of the previous 
findings. I think he mentioned that, as is indicated here, 
there would be intelligence support provided. 

My recollection would be that -- you know -- in 
indicating that third countries would be involved that other 
foreign liaison services would be involved as well. 

Q Did Mr. Roseman indicate in that first meeting 
the possibility that there might be private individuals 
involved at all in the activities related to the finding? 

A Not to the best of my knowledge, no. 

Q The last paragraph of the finding refers to the 
provision of arms equipment and related materiel — 

A Uh-huh. 

Q — to Iran. Did Mr. Roseman describe to you 
what types of arms equipment and materiel were to be 
provided? 

A No, he didn't. 

Q There was no further description than that? 

A Not at that point, no. 

Q And there's a specific reference to the fact 
that these materiels are to be used against Iraq. Is that 
something that Mr. Roseman had touched upon in your 
discussion with him that morning or that afternoon? 



UNCLASSinED 



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t!NEEASS*BllT 



22 



1 A No. I mean, he had mentioned the fact that — 

2 I mean, he had — when you say "touched upon," yes, he had 

3 mentioned the fact that that's against whom the equipment 

4 would be directed, which I think was our -- was our 

5 understanding based on his conversation with the General 

6 Counsel, but he didn't really amplify, other than to sav 

7 that that would be — would be the country targeted by the 

8 equipment. 

g Q So — withdraw that. 

10 I take it you completed the draft of the finding 

11 and then went home for the day; is that right? 
•J2 A That's right. 

13 Q And what happened the following morning on this 

14 matter? 

15 A I presented the draft to Mr. Roseman -- 
15 Q First thing in the morning? 

17 A Yes. Yes. And, to the best of my recollection, 

13 he then took the finding directly up to the General Counsel 

ig and discussed it with him. That's what happened immediately. 

20 Q Did you have a conversation with Mr. Roseman 

21 about the finding? 

22 A I would assume that I must have done, but I don't 

23 recall exactly — exactly what it was, other than to say 

24 that I had prepared a f indina -^fe in accordance with his 

25 instructions the previous day ,_ar\d..t_4g^sume I would have 



IINHI A<;< 




107 



mtSglEKBT 



23 



1 asked him, "Well, does this cover what it is that Stan -- 

2 Mr. Sporkin had described to you?" I think he said, "Well, 

3 I'd better go up and check with Stan." 

4 Q Was there anyone else who saw this draft at this 

5 time? 

6 A I don't believe so. 

7 Q And do you understand that Mr. Roseman went 

8 right up to talk to Mr. Sporkin? 

9 A That's right. 

10 Q And what happened next? 

11 A Based on his discussion with Mr. Sporkin, 

12 Mr. Roseman came back and said that a couple of other 

13 factors needed to be addressed in the finding. 

14 Q About how long had Mr. Roseman been long; do 

15 you recall? 

16 A I would guess he was probably up with Mr. Sporkin 

17 for -- oh, maybe 45 minutes, maybe an hour. 

18 Q So about what time would it have been when he 

19 came back down? Still morning? 

20 A I think it probably was still morning, but I'm 

21 not -- it would have been late in the morning, early 

22 afternoon at that point. 

23 Q And what did Mr. Roseman say to you? 

24 A Well, he had said that the instructions that had 

25 been given to him initiallv wrjir . M||>t|fcgrnm1 and having 



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1 gone over it with Stan, he had more specific information 

2 which needed to be incorporated into the finding. 

3 Q And what specifically was that new information? 

4 A Well, my recollection is really somwhat foggy. 

5 It would be reflected in the original draft that we 
g — that we prepared there. 

-I Q Let me see if I can show you what I, at least, 

understand to be the next draft. 
A Yes. 



.|Q Mr. CAROME: Could you please mark that as the 



next exhibit. 

(Exhibit Number GC-3 was marked for 
identification. ) 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q 1 show you what's been marked as Exhibit Number 3 
A Uh-huh . 

Q And ask if you can tell whether that's the 
next draft of the finding. 

THE WITNESS: Once again, if I could just have a 
moment to look at it. 

MR. CAROME: Sure. 
THE WITNESS: Thanks. 
(Pause. ) 

THE WITNESS: Yes, to the best of my knowledge, 
this is the draft that we worked on on January 3rd. 



iiKioi &<^<ilFIFn 



109 



mtmii^ 



25 



1 BY MR. CAROME: 

2 Q Now, when Mr. Roseman came bacjl^ did he have a 

3 marked-up version of your first effort? 

4 A I don't believe that he did. 

5 Q Did he come back with any written materials or 

6 notes from his meeting with Mr. Sporkin? 

7 A If he did, I didn't see them. I don't believe that 

8 he did, no. 

9 Q Having looked at that document, can you now recall 

10 what it was that were the new points that Mr. Roseman said 

11 Mr. Sporkin wanted to be addressed in the finding? 

12 A Well, I think -- I think there were several 

13 critical ones. The first pertained to the reporting of the 

14 finding to Congress. 

15 Q And what did Mr. Roseman say on that point? 

16 A I think he said that Mr. Sporkin wanted to 

17 pursue -- wanted to leave open both options to the Director 

18 of Central Intelligence, either informing the committees or 

19 not informing them initially. 

20 Q Did he say why that was something that he wished 

21 left open? 

22 A Well, he did — I think he referred to, as the 

23 language indicates here, to the fact that this was an 

24 extremely sensitive operation. That would have been the 

25 reason for withholding notification. 

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Q Can you expand upon what it was that made this 
sensitive? 

A No. No, not in any detail. 

Q In any general way to the extent on it? 

A Well, I think it's, you know, as I mentioned when 
you first asked me, I think it was understood in the office 
implicitly that the shipment of arms to Iran was considered 
to be extremely sensitive, that it was, you know, certainly 
not something that this office was involved in on a regular 
basis and as such, needed to be -- needed to be treated 
with considerable sensitivity. 

I think, as a result, there wasn't a need 
perceived, either on Mr.Roseman's part or, I believe, on 
Mr. Sporkin's part, to underscore the sensitivity of the 
operation. 

Q Was a part of what made people feel this was a 
very sensitive matter the fact that this was recognized 
as a — something of a political hot potato, something that 
would cause a political firestorm if it were publicized this 
were going on? 

A Your question is whether that was the judgment 
in the office when that was — 

Q Whether that was a factor in the — in perceiving 
this to be a highly sensitive matter? 

A Yes, I think that's true. 



iiKin ACQinrn 



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27 



1 Q Then at that time, the — your understanding was 

2 that Mr. Sporkin wanted to leave open the option on the 

3 question of reporting to Congress; is that right? 

4 A That's correct. 

5 Q And who did you understand was going to be the 

6 person to make the judgement on whether or not the final 

7 draft would include language to report or not to report? 

8 A Well, my understanding was that it would be the 
g President who was the person signing the finding, but that 

10 it would also, obviously, be reviewed by our Director before, 

11 you know, before the President made a determination. 

12 Q Of course, you were going to send over a proposed 

13 draft finding to the White House or at some point, that 

14 was going to happen, right? 

15 A I was not aware of the chain of transportation 
1g to the White House. I assumed that, yes, it would find its 
iy way to the White House eventually. 

IQ Q And that the copy that would be first proposed 
jq to the White House would not contain alternative language, 
2Q but will be drafted as a final document; is that right? 
A That's correct. 

Q Whose decision did you perceive it to be to 
decide whether the completed version sent over to the White 
House would contain language to report or not to report? 

A As I indicated, I, as far as this agency, as far 

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1 as our agency was concerned, that the decision would be 

2 made by the Director. 

3 As to who would make the final decision on the 

4 White House staff, that I did not know and cannot speculate 

5 on. 

6 Q What other changes or new aspects did Mr. Sporkin 

7 want included in the next draft? 

8 A As the draft reflects, he wanted to make it 

9 clear that the elements within Iran who would receive this 

10 assistance were not those elements who were committing 

11 acts of terrorism against the United States. More specif ica.lly 

12 as it refers to here against U.S. persons, property or 

13 interests. To the best of my recollection, that was a very 

14 important point that he wanted underscored. 

^5 Q And what else did Mr. Sporkin want done to the 

16 draft? 

17 A Those were the two points that stod^out in my 
13 recollection, and on reviewing the finding, those are 

19 certainly the two most important issues, I think, that 
are focused on. 

Q I notice in the next draft, the January 3rd 
draft, there is a reference in the second line under 



23 description to third countries. Was — 



A I'm sorry, reference at what point? 
Q The reference is in the second line — 

iiN(!i tmM 



113 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



imssflfiT 



29 



A Uh-huh. 

Q — of the description and there's a reference to 
third countries. 

A Right. 

Q That is not something that appeared in the 
original version, as best I read it, and I'm wondering if 
Mr. Roseman said anything on that subject. 

A There's a reference in the first finding to 
third countries in the context of a program of deception. 
I don't recollect that there was — if you can just give me 
a moment to — 

Q Surely. 

A — draw my recollection together on this. 

Q Sure. 

(Pause. ) 

THE WITNESS: I believe that it would have been 
after Mr. Roseman met with Stan Sporkin that morning to go 
over the first draft that Mr. Roseman was advised and 
subsequently advised me that the Government of Israel would 
be involved in the — possibly involved in the shipment of 
arms to Iraa, and I think that's — the reference to third 
countries in the second line is to reflect that — is to reflec: 
that additional information, and that I would have learned 
that day. 



Mussra 



114 



25 



UNSUSS^HSet 



30 



1 BY MR. CAROME: 

2 Q And did Mr. Roseman explain at all to you what 

3 it was that Israel would be doing? 

4 A I think that he mentioned in a general way that 

5 the Government of Israel might be involved in transporting 

6 the military materiel to Iran. He didn't elaborate beyond 

7 that, though, as I can recall. 

8 Q Did the question of where these arms or other 

9 materiels would come from ever arise? 

10 A Did it ever arise or did it arise on — 

11 Q Let me rephrase the question. 

12 In your conversations on January 2nd and January 

13 3rd — 

14 A Uh-huh. 

15 Q — with Mr. Roseman, did the subject of where the 

16 weapons would be coming from come up? 

17 A I don't believe that it did, no. 

IS Q Was it your assumption that these would be 

19 weapons coming out of the United States that would be 

20 working their way to Iran? 

21 A I didn't make any assumption. 

22 Q The second draft, the January 3rd draft — 

23 A Yeah. 

24 Q — includes, following a parethej^ical 2 — 



Uh-huh. 



IIMCliRSlFO 



115 



18 



20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



im 



s^:i^i>!; 



31 



1 Q — the objective of obtaining intelligence not 

2 otherwise obtainable. 

3 A Uh-huh. 

4 Q Was that something that you recall Mr. Roseman 

5 bringing down after his discussion with Mr. Sporkin? 

6 A I'm afraid I cannot recall exactly what -- whether 

7 he mentioned that specifically or what that -- what that is 
3 exactly intended to reflect, 
g Q But that presumably is reflective of one of 

10 Mr- Sporkin' s comments about the first draft; is that right? 
•jl A Yes, I assume that's correct. 

12 Q The second paragraph of the January 3rd draft 

13 refers to "more moderate elements within and outside the 

14 Government of Iran." IVhat do you recall being said on the 

15 subject of moderates in Iran by Mr. Roseman during this 

16 time? 
«y A As I had mentioned earlier, I did not -- obviously 



we must have discussed on the meeting of the 2nd the fact 



.jg the recipients of the assistance were to be moderate -- 



moderate factions within Iran, as that is reflected in the 
2nd January finding. 

I do not have a specific recollection of 
Mr. Sporkin asking us to put more moderate, to, you know, 
to further — to give a more detailed description of those 
exact elements. Aga^. I assume he Jiust have given some 



\\im wmm 



116 



Mffllir 



32 



1 instruction, but I don't recall specifically what he said. 

2 Q Both the January 2nd and January 3rd drafts that 

3 we've been looking at talk about termination of the 

4 assistance if the United States learns that the materiel 

5 is being used for purposes -- actually, the language is 

6 quite different in the -- as to what it is — 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q -- that would trigger a termination. 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q In the first, what would trigger a termination 

11 of the assistance is use of the material other than for 

12 furtherance of Iran's war effort against Iraq. 

13 Do you recall, is that something that Mr. Roseman 

14 had talked about on the first meeting on the 2nd? 

15 A Yes, I believe he had referred to that and he also, 

16 in the discussion the following day. This reinforces the 

17 point that we discussed earlier, which is that Mr. Sporkin 

18 wanted to make it quite clear that the recipients of the 

19 assistance within Iran were not those who were participating 

r 

20 in terorism, nor would they participate in terrorism, and 

21 my understanding is that the revision of the language in the 

22 finding dated January 3rd was to ensure that that point was 

23 made clear. 

24 Q The use of the word "reinstituting" in the second- 

25 to-last line of the January 3rd finding -- 



tne January ira tinding -- 

IINCli!;SIFiEll 



117 



1 



UNebA^RpT 



33 



A Yes. 

2 Q — causes me to ask the question: Why was it 

3 reinstituting, rather than just instituting terrorist acts? 
^ A I'm afraid I really don't recall. 

5 Q It seems to suggest that perhaps these elements 

6 had at one time been engaged in terrorist acts and the 

7 concern was that they not do it again. 

8 Do you recall anything along those lines? 

9 A I do not. There was no discussion, no detailed 

10 discussion at all within our office of the character, the 

11 nature of the elements in Iran who would be receiving the 

12 assistance, other than the fact that they were considered ' 

13 to be moderates. That was really the extent of the information 

14 we received. 

15 Q After Mr. Roseman caime back with his criticisms 

16 and suggestions from Mr. Sporkin, what took place next? 

17 A I believe that Mr. Roseman and I then sat 

18 together in his office and worked to ensure that Mr. Sporkin 's 

19 comments were incorporated into a subsequent draft. And 

20 probably would have spent a period of several hours in 

21 putting that together. 

22 Q And this Exhibit 3 is a product of that effort; 

23 is that right? 

24 A That's right. 

25 Q Just to clear up a few points - 



UNCUSSIFIED 



118 



11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



■MBK^Kllfgjr 



34 



1 A Uh-huh. 

2 Q When you were meeting with or working with 

3 Mr. Roseman on the 3rd, were there any other people 

4 present? 

5 A No. There were not. 
Q And did Mr. Roseman say whether or not there were 

y any people in addition to Mr. Sporkin that he had talked 
Q to about the drafting of the finding? 

g A He may have made reference to the fact that had 
1Q Mr. Makowka been present in the office, that he certainly 

would have wished him to be involved. As I mentioned at the 
outset, the chain of command at the time was Mr. Sporkin,* 
Mr. Makowka, Mr. Roseman and myself, and had Mr. Makowka 
been present in the office, I believe Mr. Roseman suggested 
that Mr. Sporkin would have been dealing directly with 
Mr. Makowka, rather than -- rather than with Mr. Roseman, 
but I do not recall him mentioning at that point any other 
individuals in the office to whom the finding would be 
shown. 

I don't believe he mentioned — but he referred 
once again to either Mr. Clarke or Mr. Jamison. 

Q Now, Mr. Makowka was not in the office during 
this time period; is that right? 
A No, that's correct. 
Q He wasn't in all that week: is that right? 



isn't in all that week: is the 

IINCUSMIL. 



119 



BNfifeS^flfiffiT 



35 



1 A I believe he was out for the entire week. He was 

2 quite ill during at least a period -- a portion of the 

3 late December and January. He had been out on leave, I believe 

4 on vacation, and became ill and exactly at what point he 

5 became ill, I don't know, but I believe that's correct; 

6 he was out of the office for the entire week. 

7 Q Was it unusual for Mr. Roseman to be dealing 

8 directly with Mr. Sporkin? 

9 A It was not ususual for Mr. Roseman to deal 

10 with Mr. Sporkin in the absence of Mr. Makowka. Had 

11 Mr. Mcikowka been present, though, yes, that's right. 

12 Q At any time on January 2nd or 3rd, did it come 

13 to your attention that Mr. Sporkin was in touch with 

14 Oliver North on the subject of this finding? 

15 A I believe that it came to my attention on the 
■jg afternoon of January the 3rd. I'm not absolutely certain, 
•J7 but that is my recollection. 

13 Q Was that something you would have learned from 

•|g Mr. Roseman while you were working on the draft? 

20 A My recollection is quite hazy. I assume that 

21 that must have been the case, but I'm afraid I really don't 

22 know for sure. I did not have any direct contact with 

23 Mr. Sporkin that day, to the best of my recollection. So 

24 I assume that if I had learned the information, yes, I would 
5c have learned it through Mr. Roseman. 

IIMHI i^fJIFIFn 



120 



vtimmk 



ET 



36 



1 Q Do you recall what was said about what Oliver 

2 North's role was? 

3 A No. I was not given any information as to what 

4 Oliver North's role was. 

5 Q Did you know who North was at the time? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q You knew he was a -- someone who worked at the 

8 NSC? 

9 A Yes, I did. 

10 Q Had you met him before? 

11 A No. 

12 Q Had you ever met him? 

13 A No. 

14 Q Was there any mention of Richard Secord at any 

15 time during this time frame? 

16 A No. 

17 Q Have you ever met Mr. Secord? 

18 A No, I haven't. 

19 Q Did you ever hear his name before November 1986? 

20 A I don't believe I did, no. 

21 Q Let's go back to January 3rd. 

22 A Okay . 

23 Q What — how much time did you and Mr. Roseman 

24 spend completing this second draft? 

25 A As I said, I would estimate several hours. 

iiMPi flcpicirn 



121 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UNWSiEftiE 



37 



Q And about when did you get finished? 

A I would guess probably about in the mddile of 
the afternoon. 

Q And what happened next? 

A To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Roseman then 
took the draft up to Mr. Sporkin and I believe was advised 
that Mr. Sporkin would be taking the finding down to the 
White House. And I believe it's at that point that I 
probably would have been told that the finding is being 
taken down to Oliver North. 

Q So Mr. Roseman went up to Mr. Sporkin 's office, 
came back down and told you that it was going to be taken 
over to the White House; is that right? 

A I believe that's the case. 

Q Can you be more specific about the time of day 
that that took place? 

A I really can't. I would, again -- my best guess 
would be midaf ternoon, perhaps 3 - 4:00 p.m. 

MR. CAROME. Would you mark this as the next 
exhibit, please. 

MS. McNEIL. Excuse me, could you identify these 
exhibits for the record? 

MR. CAROME. Sure. 
MS. McNEIL. We can go either with dates and 
CIIN numbers or whatever numbers you prefer to use, but just 




e 



122 



IIN«t)tSSffffFT 



38 



1 so it gets on the record what the various documents are 

2 that you're putting in. 

3 MR. CAROME. All right. 

4 BY MR. CAROME: 

5 Q When Mr. Roseman ceime back from talking to 

6 Mr. Sporkin for a second time, did he say anything about 

7 Mr. Sporkin 's reaction to the second draft? 

8 A My recollection is that he said that Mr. Sporkin 

9 was pleased and that it did accurately reflect what it was 

10 he was trying to set down on paper and did reflect the 

11 -romments he had made on our draft that had been prepared 

12 the day before. That was my -- that's my recollection. 

13 Q And did Mr. Roseman say there was anything 

14 further for you to do or for anyone at the Office of 

15 General Counsel to do on this matter at this point? 

16 A No. I mean, other than Mr. Sporkin himself, as 

17 I mentioned, who would be taking the finding down to the 

18 White House. He did not mention at that point that — 

19 the possibility of other agency people being involved. 

20 Q Did anything else happen that day on this 

21 matter that you are aware of? 

22 A Other than the finding being taken down to the 

23 White House, no. That's the extent of my recollection. 

24 Q Did you get a report back or did you hear any 

25 report of how thi^ngs Jiad _gone^at_'^hg JVhite House? 



IINHI &<;< 



123 



IWCM^nS^T 



39 



1 A That afternoon? 

2 Q Yes. 

3 A No. 

4 Q You didn't hear any more about the matter after 

5 the finding had been taken down to tne White House? 

6 A On that Friday? 

7 Q That's right. 

8 A No, I don't believe that I did. 

9 (Exhibit Number GC-4 was marked for 

10 identification.) 

11 BY MR. CAROME: 

12 Q I show you what's been marked as Exhibit Number 

13 4. It's difficult to — the CIIN number is not visible 

14 on it -- 

15 A Uh-huh. 

16 Q It's a cover sheet dated January 3rd, 1986, and 

17 has four pages attached to it of CINN numbers 117 through 

18 120. I ask if you've ever seen this group of documents. 

19 Let's start with the first page. 

20 A Uh-huh. 

21 Q Do you recognize what that is? 

22 A Yeah, it's a -- simply a control sheet. I do not 

23 believe I've seen this before, no. 

24 Q All right. And the next page — 
A Uh-huh. 



25 



UNCUSSIFIED 



124 



UlffittSSfflfflET 



40 



1 Q -- CIIN number 117 is something called a dummy 

2 copy. Do you know what that is? 

3 A Yes. Dummy copies are used for filing purposes 

4 when the document is top secret, as this document was. 

5 We do not actually place the full-text copy in 

6 our soft files. 

7 Q So this is — I mean, it would have been in your 

8 soft files or Mr. Roseman's soft files; is that correct? 

9 A As it indicates on the distribution, it would 

10 have been placed in a number of different files, including 

11 my — what is called my signer file. The signer file, as 

12 the name indicates, is a record of all the documents that -- 

13 not only that I have, in fact, signed, but in which I've had 

14 substantial responsibility for their preparation. 

15 Q Those are your initials, GDC? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q And do you know what ILD opinion file is? 

18 A That is a reference to — ILD is the Intelligence 

19 Law Division, a division of which I was and am now a member 

20 and we also keep a divisional file of documents that the 

21 division has been involved in preparing. 

22 Q And what is ICA subject file? 

23 A The ICA subject file — ICA is the Intelligence 

24 Community Affairs Division that I had referred to earlier. 

25 I'm afraid I do not recall why they would have been included 

iiNPi AQQinrn 



125 



23 
24 
25 



UNIBSSMF^ 



41 



1 on the distribution. I believe that Mr. Roseman indicated 

2 that, because the Intelligence Community Affairs Division 

3 is the repository in the office for covert action findings, 

4 as I mentioned before, that it was appropriate that they 

5 be given a copy of this. That is my recollection. 

6 Q And the fact that this says "Copy 2," rather than 

7 dummy copy indicates that they would 've been getting an 

8 actual copy of the document; is that right? 
g A That's right. 

10 Q Same for Ollie North; he would actually be getting 

•]•) a copy of the document; is that right? 

•]2 A That's right. 

■\2 Q And the classification in Number! 

•J4 that you? Is that your classification number? 

■J5 A No , no . 

Ig MR. CAROME: If we could go off the record for 

17 just a minute. 

(Discussion off the record.) 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Mr. Cole, the next page appears to be copy 2 of 
the January 3rd finding that we were talking about a moment 



22 ^90. 



A That's right. 

Q And, by the way, the fact that it contains 
alternative lan(m^e up at the top regarding congressional 

ACCirirn 



126 



m§m 



42 



' notification, does that Indicate to you that at some point 

^ there was going to be further work to be done on this 

3 finding in the Office of General Counsel? 
^ A No. No, as I indicated before, I did not know 

5 exactly where the decision was going to be made. I assumed 

6 It would be made by the Director and finally, obviously, 

7 the President. I was not aware whether or not additional 

8 work would be done in the Office of General Counsel in 

9 making that change. 

10 Q All right. 

11 The next page of this exhibit is the -- I believe 

12 it is the January 2nd finding that you worked on. And the 

13 next page is a copy of the November '85 mini-finding. Now 

14 again, you said you didn't see that document or know about 

15 that docximent until November '86. Is that right? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q And do you have any idea why these three 

18 documents would have been grouped together or do you know 

19 whether they were grouped together and sent over to the 

20 White House together? 

21 A No to either question. I don't know why they 

22 would have been and I had no idea that they were. 

23 Q It would have been your expectation that what 

24 Mr. Sporkin was taking down to the White House was simply 

25 a copy of the Jar*tfjr^ ^td draft that you — 



^rd draft that vou 



127 



Utttt/l^fftEiT 



43 



A That's correct. There wouldn't have been any 
reason to take down the draft, and as I said, I was not 
aware of the existence of the so-called mini-finding. I 
wouldn't have had any expectation that that would have gone 
down . 

Q What was the next event or development that 
you were aware of with respect to this finding that you had 
been working on after it was taken down to the White 
House? 

A A meeting was held on Monday, the following 
Monday, which would be January the 6th. I believe it was . 
Monday. It is possible it was on Tuesday, but my 
recollection is that it was the 6th, that evening, I would 
guess probably beginning around 5:30 or 6:00, I believe that 
Mr. Roseman was absent. 

A memo had been prepared by Betty Ann Smith, who 
was an attorney at the time in our Litigation Division, 
concerning various — various statutory provisions dealing 
with the shipment of arms.. 

I recall having a copy of that memo and discussing 
it in the context of this meeting. That is the next -- the 
next contact I had pertaining to this matter. 

Q You weren't aware of — strike that. 
Who was present at that meeting? 



UNCI A!s<;iFiFn 



128 



msaflnrr 



44 



1 A I believe it was the General Counsel, Mr. Sporkin, 

2 George Clarke, George Jamison, Betty Ann Smith and myself. 

3 Q And what was the purpose of the meeting? 

4 A I was called in, to the best of my recollection, 

5 while the meeting was in process. I believe the only 

6 reason I was asked to participate was because of my 

7 division's involvement in drafting the finding the previous 

8 week. 

9 I believe that Mr. Roseman was not present in 

10 the office at the time. I don't know why. And ordinarly, 

11 he would have been asked to participate in the meeting. 

12 As he was not there, I was called in and asked to 

13 participate. 

14 Q Who called you in? 

15 A I believe it was Stan Sporkin 's secretary. That's 

16 my recollection. During the course of the meeting, 

17 Mr. Sporkin had a conversation with Mr. North. 

18 Q He called Mr. North on the phone while everyone 

19 was present? 

20 A I'm trying to remember whether I walked in during 

21 the course of the conversation or was actually present. 

22 I believe I was actually present when he initiated the call, 

23 and yes, he did make the call. 

24 Q He placed the call? 

25 A That's right. 



liNHi L^mm 



129 



UNMSWe' 



Q And what was said on the telephone? 

A My recollection is quite hazy. I really don't 
recall specifically. I don't believe it was a very long 
conversation. 

Q How did you know it was Mr. North on the other 
end? 

A He said, "Hello, Ollie." He said, "Hello, Ollie, 
this is Stan." 

Q Can you recall anything else that was said 
during the conversation? 

A I cannot recall in any detail. I believe he — . 
and this was the reason I was, I am sure, in describing what 
I knew on Friday afternoon, whether I knew on Friday or, 
in fact, learned on Monday that it was Mr. North who was 
the recipient of the finding at the White House, I really 
do not remember at which point I learned that. It is 
possible that I did not learn it until the meeting on 
Monday. 

I believe he wanted to ensure that Mr. North 
had the finding and I believe that he was discussing 
coming down to see Mr. North that evening. I believe that 
was the principal purpose of the call, was to set up a 
meeting for Mr. Sporkin to go down to the National Security 
Council later that night. 

Q Was th^re a^v discussion of the subject matter 



:hGre.ariY discussion of t 

HA.<;.<;inpn 



130 



11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



wmsmk 



46 



1 of the finding on the phone? 

2 A I really cannot recall. 

3 Q Anything else you can recall about the phone 

4 call; how long did it last? 

5 A I really can't. I would guess it probably 
g lasted a couple of minutes. I don't believe it was a 
7 lengthy conversation. 

Q This meeting was taking place in Mr. Sporkin's 
office; is that right? 



^Q A Right. 



Q What was going on at the meeting when you went 
in? 

A There was discussion about the memo that Betty 
Ann Smith had prepared, which listed various statutory 
provisions bearing on the regulation of arms exports, various 
provisions of the Foreign Assistance Act and the Arms 
Export Control Act and prohibitions on transfers of arms 
and circumstances in which arms could be transferred and 
the types of countries who could not receive those arms. 

The conversation — the meeting seemed to be 
in full swing when I arrived. 

MR. CAROME: Would you mark this as the next 
exhibit. 

(Exhibit Number GC-5 was marked for 
identification. ) 



iiNCi A.s.^iFirn 



131 



WREIiSSIflilT 



BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Pardon the yellow highlighting on this docmnent , 
but I believe this is the better -- 

A It is the curse of our trade. 

Q I believe it is the Betty Ann Smith memorandum 
you were discussing, and it has been marked as Exhibit Number 
5. 

Is that the memorandum that was being discussed 
at the meeting? 

A Let me take a quick look. 

MS. McNEIL. What other identifiers are there 
on that exhibit? 

MR. CAROME. There's a CI IN number 115. 
MS. McNeil. 6 January 1986; right? 
MR. CAROME. That's right. 

THE WITNESS. Yes, I believe this is the memo 
that was being discussed. 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Was it clear to you that this memo related to 
the matters that were also being addressed by the finding 
that you had drafted? 
A Yes. 

Q And why were these various arms statutes under 
discussion; do you know? 

A I believe they were under discussion because it 

iiMPi Aooincn 



132 



UNSfeASSflEtT 



48 



1 was thought that they may have implications for the transfer 

2 of arms that was contemplated in the finding. 

3 Q What was the general flow of the discussion on 

4 the subject? 

5 A I cannot recall in any great detail. There was 

6 also discussion of a provision of a provision of the -- 

7 I believe it is the section of the U.S. Code dealing with 

8 the Department of Defense, which dealt with reportable 

9 transactions at, I believe my recollection is that I was 

10 actually sent out of the meeting to get a copy of the 

11 statute and it deals with the point at which a transaction . 

12 must be reported to Congress and it's a threshold that's 

13 set in terms of the dollar value of the transaction. 

14 Q Is the statute you're referring to 10 USC 133 

15 Note? I'm not sure that that — 

16 A As I don't have it in front of me, I really cannot 

17 say. 10 USC, I believe, is the section of the U.S. Code 

18 dealing with the Armed Forces. It would have been in that 

19 chapter. 

20 Q In any event, the concern dealt with the question 

21 of reporting to Congress; is that right? 

22 A That was one of the concerns. The other concern 

23 that was being discussed was the mechanism for the transfer 

24 of the military material. And, to the best of my 

25 recollection, the question that was being addressed was the 

iiNPi KQiPirn 



133 



iWKIISSffilB' 



49 



1 circumstances in which a third country could be used in 

2 making such a transfer. And specifically, whether or not 

3 the Government of Israel could transfer armaments which 

4 were in its possession at the time or whether some other 

5 mechanism had to be employed in order for the transfer 

6 to be consistent with the legal requirements that were 

7 discussed in Betty Ann Smith's memo. 

8 To the best of my recollection, there were really 

9 two points under discussion. The first v;as the mechanism 

10 of the transfer; the second was the reportability if the 

11 -- if the military items to be used are — originate from . 

12 the Department of Defense, our Department of Defense. 

13 Q Why was it that reporting was a concern? 

14 A Well, as I had indicated before, because of the 

15 sensitivity of the matter, Mr. Sporkin, in discussion with 

16 Mr. Roseman, had indicated that this option -- the option 

17 of not immediately reporting the finding was to be -- was 

18 to be preserved. And I understood at the time that the 

19 concern that is reflected in the language of the draft 

20 finding that we had prepared was the same concern. 

21 Q Am I correct that it was perceived that the 

22 statutes that Betty Ann Smith was looking at -- the Foreign 

23 Assistance Act and the Arms Export Control Act, were 

24 viewed as problematic because they contained specific and 



134 



URGtlt^H^T 



50 



1 A To the best of my recollection, that's — that was 

2 part of the consideration, yes. 

3 Q And the same would go for the other specific 

4 DOD statute; is that right? 

5 A Yes, but as I mentioned, it wasn't simply the 

6 reporting requirements that were at issue. There is a 

7 question of in what circumstances and I, you know, I, again, 

8 am not -- am not and was not the expert in this area. This 

9 is an area that is generally dealt with by the Intelligence 

10 Community Affairs Division. 

11 My understanding, though, was that there were 

12 provisions in the statutes dealing with whether or not 

13 a third country, under what circumstances would be permitted 

14 to make such a transfer. But I think you're correct in 

15 saying the reporting requirements on those statutes were 

16 certainly an important topic in this meeting. 

17 Q And it was specifically under discussion that 

18 Israel might be a transferring party; is that right? 

19 A Yes. That's right. 

20 Q And was the question of replenishment of 

21 weapons that Israel would transfer out of its own stocks 

22 discussed at this meeting? 

23 A Yes, it was. 

24 Q And what was said on the subject of replenishment? 

25 A I beJ.i.e\£ejJUt tf UL Jfi >*!>* tV^^ ~rii--rr1 whether or not 



iwranrn 



135 



lINffiHSiFI^T 



51 



1 the reporting requirements would differ if replenishment 

2 of Israeli stocks were made by -- directly by the Department 

3 of Defense or whether the transfer was achieved — the 

4 replenishment was achieved by an intelligence agency. 

5 Q And what was the flow of that discussion? 

6 A Well, there was -- to the best of my 

7 recollection, there was no resolution. There was some 

8 suggestion, though, that the intelligence community would 

9 not be subject to the Department of Defense reporting 

10 requirements if it made the replenishment and so there was 

11 thought given to whether or not the replenishment of the 

12 Israeli stocks would -- should be accomplished through 

13 an intelligence agency rather than through an entity of the 

14 Department of Defense. 

15 Q Was it a working assumption at this meeting that 

16 the arms that would work their way to Iran would come out of 

17 Israeli stock? 

18 A No, I don't believe that it was. I think that 

19 all options were considered to be live ones. There was a 

20 variety of discussion, as I recall, as to whether or not 

21 the arms might originate in this country or might originate 

22 in Israel. Replenishment was one option that was considered. 

23 I believe that it was also considered that the arms would 

24 be passed, using the Israelis as an intermediary. There were 

25 a variety of topics discussed. 



UNCLASSinED 



136 



17 



22 

23 
24 
25 



MklglW 



52 



1 As I mentioned earlier, I came in in the middle 

2 of the meeting. I had not any previous expertise in this 

3 area. I had only been in the office about three months. 

4 I was not fully cognizant of these sorts of transactions, 

5 so I , you know -- I cannot give you the fullest explanation. 
5 Q Was the subject of an economy-act transfer from 

7 DOD to CIA discussed at this meeting? 

8 A An 
g Q An economy-act transaction? 

■JO A I do believe there was reference to a 

I'j possible transfer from DOD to CIA. The reference to 

■)2 economy act does not ring any bells, though. I don't believe 

13 they refer to that statute by name. 

1^ Q Was there any reference to the involvement in 

15 the transaction of private parties and whether or not that 

1g would help any of the legal problems? 

A I don't believe there was, no. 
^g Q No reference to private parties at all being 

in involved that you recall? 

2Q A I don't believe there was any reference to 

21 private parties at all. That is my recollection. 



Q Is that a fairly firm recollection? 
A I think it's a reasonably firm recollection. 
Q Was there discussion of what types of weapons 
or other material -- j.t wa^ wg rinftft%MtJtf t were under 



ittsm 



137 



MNWSIflKfET 



53 



consideration; is that right? 

A It was munitions of some sort. I, again, my 
recollection is not specific, but I don't believe there 
was a reference to the sort of arms that were being 
transferred. 

Q You don't remember TOW missiles being discussed? 

A No. 

Q Or Hawk missiles? 

A No. 1 do not. 

Q Who was leading the discussion? 

A Mr. Sporkin was the General Counsel. I think 
It's fair to say that he was leading the discussion, though 
the manner of conversation was quite wide open. I mean, 
thoughts and suggestions were being fired from all over 
the room. I don't recall that anybody in particular took 
command of the meeting. I think there were -- you know, 
there was input from all quarters. 

Q Was the goal to figure out a way that this 
transaction could be done; was that the major goal? 

A Yes. 

Q And did Mr. Sporkin make it clear that he wanted 
to get this done quickly because there was some 
urgency to performing the transaction? 

A As I mentioned, my understanding was that when 
he went down to rf^-iOUis dtb4 l % ' l 'l |^iy ffV-th Mr. North, as had 



imnnfflTiif' 



138 



25 



iitiflSi^BafeT 



54 



1 been indicated in the phone call that took place fairly 

2 early on in the meeting, that he wanted to bring some sort 

3 of a recommendation on this subject. That was my 

4 understanding. And so -- but, yes, it was most definitely 

5 intended that we get our thoughts in order in some form 

6 and to make a recommendation on this to Mr. North. 

7 Q Were any decisions made at the meeting? 

8 A I guess my response would be that there probably 

9 were, but that — they were not communicated to me. 

10 Q Were you there for the duration of the meeting? 

11 A I was there -- I believe I was there for virtually 

12 all of the meeting after I arrived, yes, until Mr. Sporkih 

13 left to go downtown. 

14 I think it is fair to say that Mr. Sporkin often 

15 conducted meetings in which he would solicit everyone's 
15 views. He would not necessarily communicate the 

17 decision or the resolution that he arrived at to other 

18 people in the meeting. I think he probably did make a 

19 decision as to the recommendation he was going to make, but 

20 that was not communicated to me. 

21 Q Did it seem clear by the end of the meeting that 

22 the transactions being contemplated would be carried out 

23 in some fashion other than pursuant to the Foreign 

24 Assistance Act or the Arms Export Control Act? 
A I'm not sure I under stam^ j-he question. 



not sure I under stam^ ^he 



139 



BKSkAS&tK&T 



55 



Q My question is was it clear by the end of the 
meeting that the mechanism for going forward with this 
transaction would be something other than mechanisms covered 
by the Arms Export Control Act or the Foreign Assistance 
Act? 

A No , to my mind, it was not fairly clear. As I 
mentioned, serious consideration was given to other 
proposals, to other alternatives, specifically to using 
an intelligence agency in order to make the transfer. 

I don't think it's fair to say, though, that in 
my mind at the time, I was convinced that it was going to 
be done in this fashion. I guess the only statement I 
could make was that serious consideration had been given 
to it and that it was obviously one of the leading 
proposals under consideration. But I didn't really form 
an opinion as to how definitely it was going to be done. 

Q Was the group at this meeting told that the 
finding had, in fact, been prepared and you had been working 
on it? 

Was that evident to the group? 

A I think it was basically a working assumption, 
yes, and I think -- I believe that they had been told. I 
think that that's — I think that Mr. Sporkin had probably 
told them before I came in. I mean, it certainly would not 
have been the normal course of_ biiS-ltia^ to include a junior 



irmal course of busiimas 1 



140 



tUffiMSSIREffT 



56 



' member of my division in such a discussion without some sort 

^ of explanation as to why I was there. 

3 Q Was there a discussion at the meeting of the 

^ unusualness of the concept of the United States sending 

5 arms to Iran? 

6 A Not at that meeting, no. 

7 Q Had that been discussed before? 

8 A Prior to the meeting? 

9 Q Yes. 

10 A I — well, yes, it had. I think that when 

11 Mr. Roseman was first given the instructions from 

12 Mr. Sporkin on the preceding Thursday and we had been asked 

13 to prepare a finding, I think Mr. Roseman and I both 

14 felt and expressed to one another that this was a very 

15 surprising development and — I mean, when I referred earlier 

16 to the extreme sensitivity of the matter, that's -- I think 

17 that was really the view that we were expressing. 

18 Q Was that sensitivity discussed again at this 

19 January 6th meeting? 

20 A I don't believe that it was. I think that at the 

21 January 6th meeting, I think — it appeared that the people 

22 involved had already been — were already well informed as 

23 to what was contemplated and the real purpose of the 

24 meeting was to explore various alternatives for, you know, 

25 for accomplishing the transaction. I think whatever — you 



141 



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know, whatever surprise would have been expressed by 
the, you know, the various participants in the group 
probably would have been expressed earlier. 

I don't believe it was expressed at that meeting, 

no. 

Q Did Mr. Sporkin say anything about the status 

of the finding at this meeting? 

A I believe that Mr. North had indicated in the 
conversation at the outset of the meeting that he had 
read the finding and basically found it satisfactory. I 
don't recall any other discussion of it there now. 
Q Was Mr. North on a spe^er phone? 
A No. 

Q You could just infer — 

A I could gather from the tenor of Mr. Sporkin "s 
reaction his comments. 

Q And was it your understanding that essentially 
the finding was at the White House awaiting signature at 

that point? 

A I really — I did not know. I did not know what 

the next step would have been. 

Q And when Mr. North was on the phone talking 
about the finding, you assumed it to be the finding tha^ 
you had just been working on the previous few days; is that 



right? 



iiNnLA!;!;iFiFn 



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VNGtil^iPilT 



58 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

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14 

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18 

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A Absolutely, yes. 

Q Were there any tasks assigned to anybody at that 
meeting by Mr. Sporkin or anyone else? 

A As I mentioned, being the most junior member of the 
congregation present, I was dispatched to the library to 
grab the defense statute that I referred to. Betty Ann Smith 
obviously had been tasked to prepare the memo that she had. 
I believe she was probably tasked with it that afternoon. 
I don't believe that there were any other tasks that ccime out 
of that meeting, or were performed during the course of the 
meeting. 

Q How long did the meeting go on? 

A I estimated that I came in about 5:30 to 6 o'clock, 
and I think it probably went on for probably another hour and 
a half, maybe to 7:30, 7:45. 

Q Where were things left when the meeting broke up? 
What was going to happen next? 

A I believe that Mr. Sporkin was planning on going 
down to talk to Mr. North. That was my recollection. 

Q Was there any further discussion at the meeting 
about which of the two reporting options — either reporting 
or not reporting would be pursued? 

A In the context of the finding? 

Q Yes. 

A Not in the context of the various statutes? 



UNCUSSIHED 



143 



IffKiSH^' 



59 



1- Q In the context of the finding. 

2 A No. I don't think that there was. 

3 Q Was it clear by the end of the meeting that the 

4 covert finding route was the route that was going to be 

5 followed? 

6 A The wisdom of the finding was not discussed in the 

7 course of this meeting. I think it was pretty much taken as 

8 a given when we entered the meeting that there would be a 

9 finding. So I guess the answer to your question is yes, that 

10 it was not as a result of discussions at that meeting. 

11 Q One of the options being discussed — 

12 A Uh-huh. 

13 Q — I take it at the meeting was that the Department 

14 of Defense might make transactions or transfers of arms to 

15 Iran directly and not involving the CIA; is that right? 
•J6 A I believe that's correct. 

17 Q Why would there have been a -- why would a finding 

18 have been needed if that option were pursued? 

19 A Well, as you -- you know, as you will see in looking 

20 at the draft of the finding that we proposed, the transfer of 

21 military materiel was simply a part of what was contemplated 

22 in the finding. There were certainly other programmatic 

23 aspects that may very well have involved the Intelligence 

24 Agency in activities other than the collection of foreign 
oc intelligence. And under the Hughes-Ryan Act that would 

iiKini AQQinrn 



144 



imsasfiflBF 



60 



■a oooaotato a finding. 



Q What activities might there have been other than 
transferring arms? 

A Well, I mean there is reference here, as you will se( 
on the finding marked January 3rd to the provision of funds, 
intelligence, counterintelligence, training, guidance, 
communications assistance, a variety of activities in which an 
° intelligency agency and not the Department of Defense would 

have been involved. 

The requirements of Hughes-Ryan, as I am sure you 
are aware, is that if an intelligence agency in other than, the 
collection of foreign intelligence overseas, that a finding is 
required. 
1^ Q Of course, the finding that you drafted 

15 specifically referred to the CIA being involved in the 

16 provision of weapons and materiels to Iran; is that right? 

17 A The finding that I had prepared -- the January 3rd 

18 finding — says — in the language at the top of the finding 

19 there is a reference to operations undertaken by the Central 

20 Intelligence Agency in foreign countries. To that extent the 

21 answer, I guess, is yes. 

22 Q Was it your assumption that no matter which of the 

23 options under consideration at this January 6th meeting was 

24 ultimately adopted that this finding would be pursued and — 

25 A That was my impression, yes. 

n 

m 




145 



23 
24 
25 



U 






ET 



61 



1 Q Who did Betty Ann Smith work for at that time? 

2 A Betty Ann Smith was an attorney in the Litigation 

3 Division. The Litigation Division at the time was headed by 

4 George Clarke. George Clarke was, as I recall, was the 

5 Division Chief for both Intelligence Community Affairs and 

6 Litigation, to the best of my recollection. 

7 There was a Deputy Division Chief who would have had 

8 specific responsibility for Litigation. There was a Deputy 

9 Division Chief who had control of the Intelligence Community 
■\Q side -- that was George Jameson who you've mentioned before. 
■\-\ I believe that the Deputy who presided over the Litigation- 
■J2 side was Page Moffett. So she would have worked for Page 

13 Moffett and for Geonoe Clarke. 

14 But I think it's fair to say that attorneys within 

15 that Division, because Mr. Clarke wore a dual hat, would 

1g occasionally become involved in the activities of the other 

17 divisions. A Litigation attorney may have responsibilities in 

13 the Intelligence Community area. So it's possible that Betty 

<Q Ann Smith may have been asked to do some work for George 

oQ Jameson. 

2* Q Mr. Carome. Again, you recall that when the 

22 meeting broke up Mr. Sporkin was going to be going down to 



-r:::: .^. unclassified 

A That's my recolfejlJction. 

Q — to meet with Mr. North; is that right? 



146 



22 
23 



UNfiH^ffipT 



62 



1 A That's right. 

2 Q Did you understand there was going to be anyone 

3 else meeting with Mr. Sporkin and Mr. North? 

4 A No. 

5 Q Do you recall what time it was that Mr. North and 

6 Mr. Sporkin were going to be meeting? 

7 A As I indicated, I think the meeting, our meeting, 

8 wound up around 7:30 or 7:45. My understanding was that Mr. 

9 Sporkin would be heading down to the — to see Mr. North 
•JO immediately thereafter. 

11 Q And do you recall whether it was Mr. North's idea or 

12 Mr. Sporkin 's idea that they get together that night? 

13 A I do not recall. 

14 Q What was the next thing that you are aware of that 

15 occurred with respect to the preparation of the finding? 

1g A I have no further -- I had no further involvement 

17 with any aspect of the finding after that meeting on Monday. 

•J8 I made several inquiries of others who had been involved in 

■jg the meeting later in the week to ask them whether they had 

20 heard anything as to what had happened, how it had progressed. 

21 And they didn't, apparently did not have any indication. And 
I really received no further information. 

Q Did you hear during the month of January that a 

24 finding had been signed? 

25 ^ N^ 



ilNCiii.<:.<:iPii:n 



i 



147 



im^RfiF' 



63 



Q Were you aware that Mr. Sporkin and Mr. North were 
continuing to pursue the finding? 



3 

A I don't believe I had any awareness that it was 



being pursued after the meeting on January the 6th. 

Q Essentially that meeting at the 6th was the last 
time you heard about the subject of possible shipments of 
' materiels to Iran? 

® A Until November of 1986 when the story became 
° public, that's right. 

Q You had no contemporaneous knowledge of weapon 
shipments taking place to Iran? 
A None. 
Q No contemporary awareness of — strike that. 

I'm right that it was clear from the very beginning 
"15 of your involvement in this matter that this was an effort 
"16 directed at securing the release of American hostages; is 

17 that right? 

18 A No, that's not correct. That's not correct at all, 

19 Q When did the subject of hostages enter the 

20 discussion? 

21 A My understanding in the initial instructions that 

22 I was given on January the 2nd was that the purpose of the 

23 finding, the objective as it indicates here, was to establish 

24 connections with more moderate elements in Iran. My 

25 recollection is that there was some discussion as to whether 



IIWQIi^^QlHEn 



148 




'AS 




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2 

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64 

or not reference to the hostages -- to the release of 
hostages -- would be included in the finding. I'm afraid I 
do not have a firm recollection, though, as to how it was — 
whether it was decided to make an explicit reference. My 
recollection as it's reflected here is that it was not. 

Q Did you ever see later drafts of a finding after 
this January 3rd draft? 

A Well, after the — after the affair became public, 
yes, at that point I was shown the -- a subsequent finding. 

MR. CAROME: Could you mark this as the next 
exhibit? 

(Exhibit No. GC-6 was marked 
for identification.) 

MS. McNEIL: Could we take a break? Is it possible 
to take a break? 

MR. CAROME: Yes, absolutely. 

MS. McNEIL: Would you like to take a break? 

THE WITNESS: Sure. That would be fine. 

(Brief recess) 

MR. CAROME: Back on the record. 

BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Mr. Cole, I'm sorry if this next question is sort of 
repeating what we just went through. 

Could you tell me again when it was in early 
January that the subject of American hostages came up, and in 



llMUiSSiElEII-. 



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what context it came up? 

A To the best of my recollection, there was no 
mention of the release of the American hostages in the 
discussion that I had with Mr. Roseman on 2nd January. I 
believe -- and this is only to the best of my recollection -- 
that there was -- that Mr. Roseman did refer to the fact that 
there had been a — that the subject of the hostages had been 
discussed with Mr. Sporkin, I believe in the Friday morning 
session that we referred to. But exactly what the resolution 
was with respect to the language of the finding, I do not have 
a firm recollection. 

Q But Mr. Roseman referred to it, you think on that 
Friday? 

Was it referred to in the sense that the activities 
to be undertaken by the CIA would be directed in part toward 
freeing Americans held hostage in Lebanon? 

A If the question is — I'm sorry. Was the question 
whether the Agency's efforts would be directed towards the 
release of the hostages? _. ^^, 

— ^rr, ^ftat-* s_-;right . -^r^ -^p^'-- :~-W-i^ ^ ~ -- ~~~M 

A ^think.- th^r*e*^a«-|^tll^some con^aiewr'iTFlg. ^ - 

.^-- ■ -^- -5 -■J.lS- ^-,^ - -SSL- '^ ■ - -"^ 

Rosemaeg s ^rid as to whai^gxi^*^g1Wv_SFSBtin want^ dowe^ih 

that area. And I can only assume that it was taken care of to 

Mr. Sporkin 's satisfaction. I don't gj^ Olj Uiough, exactly 

whatL^ttE^esol 



150 



BNttHSSfFeT 



66 



•1 Q Was the subject of hostages brought up- at all during 

2 the January 6th meeting? 

3 A No. 

4 Q I show you what's been marked as Exhibit 6. It's a 

5 several page document, the first page of which has a number on 

6 it, N9545. It includes a covert action finding bearing 

7 Ronald Reagan's signature dated January 6th, 1986. And it's 

8 that part of the document that I refer you to. And I ask if 

9 you have any recollection of having seen this document? 

10 A I do not recall seeing this document, no. 

11 Q And it's similar to the January 3rd finding you ' 

12 drafted. Among the differences is the inclusion of a 

13 specific sub-item 3 referring to hostages. 

14 A That's correct. 

15 Q You don't know, or you were not part of any 

16 discussions leading to the inclusion of that sub-item; is that 

17 right? 

18 A That's right. 

19 Q And you can't be sure whether or not the finding 

20 discussed in the phone call between North and Sporkin that you 

21 heard was the January 3rd draft that you had done or this 

22 draft dated January 6th; is that right? 

23 A No, I cannot be sure, that's right. 

24 Q Do you have any idea which of the two it was? 

25 A No, I don't. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



151 








67 



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Q Did the subject of the hostages ever — strike that 
After your discussion with Mr. Roseman — 

A Uh-huh. 

Q — on Friday, January 3rd, and the reference is to 
hostages, did the question of how the hostages fit into the 
scheme ever become clearer to you? 

A Not until November of 1986 when the story became 
public. No, it did not become clear to me over the span of 
the next couple of days. 

Q Were you surprised that you had been involved in a 
finding and then never learn the result of what happened with 
it? 

A No. No, because as I indicated at the outset, I was 
surprised that I had been involved in the finding. It did not 
surprise me that I was not subsequently informed. 

Q Moving to a different subject. 

A Uh-huh. 

Q Am I correct that sometime in the summer of 1986 
you had one or more discussions with Charli.:^ Allen on the 
question of monitoring of telephone calls? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell me when — how many discussions did you 
have with them on that subject? 

A I would estimate that I had two. I'm sure that I 
had one, and I may have had q 



may have had q, 




152 



25 



mmm 



68 



1 Q And when did they take place? 

2 A I do not recall exactly, but it was sometime in the 

3 early summer, the early summer of 1986. 

4 Q And as to the first conversation on that subject, 

5 how was the conversation initiated? 

6 A I was told by my superiors, I believe by both Mr. 

7 Makowka and Mr. Roseman, that Mr. Allen had contacted them 

8 with respect to obtaining authorization in order to monitor 

9 some telephone calls. There is in a CIA agency regulation 

10 which provides that such monitoring can only be done for an 

11 operational or security purpose and the approval of the 

12 appropriate deputy director must be obtained. 

13 I was aware of this regulation and was asked by, I 

14 believe by both Mr. Roseman and Mr. Makowka, to contact Mr. 

15 Allen, who is, as I mentioned, had been a client of mine 
15 previously in connection with the Holloway Commission, to 

17 talk to him to get some further information as to the purpose 

18 for the monitoring and to take care of drawing up the 

19 necessary authorization. That's how it was initiated. 

20 Q And you then had a conversation with Mr. Allen; is 

21 that right? 

22 A That's right, uh-huh. 

23 Q And what did he tell you in that conversation? 

24 A He said that he was anticipating that he may be 
receiving telephone calls from outside the country relating to 



imftSMH. 



153 



OWBHSaflfF 



69 



1 the release of the hostages held in the Middle East and that 

2 he wished to obtain authorization for recording those calls. 

3 Q Did he tell you who it was that he wanted to 

4 monitor? 

5 A No, he did not. 

6 Q Did he say that these were calls to himself that he 

7 wanted to monitor? 

8 A He mentioned that the calls might either be to him 

9 or to another person in his office. 

10 Q Did he say who the other person was? 

11 A No. 

12 Q Did he say whether these people on the other end of 

13 the conversations were foreigners? 

14 A No. He simply indicated that the calls would be 

15 coming from outside the country and specifically that they 
■J6 might be coming from the Middle East. 

17 Q And did you specifically advise him that there 

■\Q needed to be higher approval for such monitoring if only one 

19 of the parties consented? 

20 A That's right. I explained — I explained the nature 
2'j of the internal Agency regulation mentioned that we should 

22 prepare a memorandum requesting authorization from the 

23 appropriate deputy directors for his signature, and he said 

24 fine, go ahead and draw it up. 

25 Q Did Allen say anything about the fact that he had 



Mussra. 



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already been engaged in monitoring phone calls prior to -- 

A No. 

Q -- this conversation? 

A No, he did not. 

Q ■ Did he say that the calls would be originating in 
Lebanon? 

A No. 

Q But you do recall the Middle East? 

A Yes. 

Q Did anything -- did you learn anything further -- 
withdraw that. 

What was the resolution of this first conversation 
on the subject? 

A That I was to go ahead and draw up the necessary 
approval memorandum, which I did, and that it would be sent 
over to him for his signature, and then would be circulated 
to — we, to the best of my recollection, decided to submit 
it for -- to approval both for the Deputy Director for 
.Operations as well as the Deputy Director for Administration. 




155 



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Q You said you might have had a second conversation 
on the subject. 

A Yeah, I think I may have called them up to say that 
— we had a discussion about the memo with the General 
Counsel. It was considered of sufficient importance since it 
was being submitted to Deputy Directors for approval, to 
discuss it with the General Counsel. We did -- I believe that 
there were some language changes that may have been made that 
may have departed a little bit from what had been originally 
discussed with Mr. Allen. I believe I called him up to Say, 
Mr. Allen, CharHie, this is what we have in mind, how does 
this sound? I think he said fine. I think at that point I 
sent it over. That was probably the nature of the second 
conversation. 

Q And did you ever learn about calls that were 
monitored pursuant to this authorization? 

A I did learn — I learned after November of 1986. 
I did not learn — I was not advised in the period that 
summer or early that fall. I did learn after the -- you know 
after this matter became a matter of public record, yes. 

Q At the time you were talking to Mr. Allen about 
these monitoring of calls — 



Uh-huh. 



IINriASSra 



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Q — for the purposes of, or related to hostages -- 
A Right . ■ ' :' 

Q — did you draw any connection between that 
activity and the activity addressed by the findings you were 
drafting in January? 

A No, I don't believe that I did. 

Q Let me see if there's anything else I want to ask 
you. 

A Okay, sure. 
(Pause) 

MR. CAROME: I think that's it. Thank you very 
much . _^ ''.^ 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 
MR. CAROME: We can go off the record. 
(Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the deposition was 
adjourned,] 



157 




uNulJly,Si||ffl^ 



13 



«M»f>dOc mot 



26 November 1985 



Mt^WRANOUM FOR: Vice Admiral John M. Poindexter, USN 
Deputy Assistant to the President 
for National Security Affairs 

SUBJECT: Presidential Finding on Middle East . 



Pursuant to our conversation this should go to 
the President for his signature and should pot be 
passed around in any hands below our level. 



Attachment: 
As stated 







.1-" 







CrrAi ^/^;L, 




158 



159 



ONCUBSlFi* 



Findine Pursuant to Section 662 of the Foreign 
A-ssistar.ce Act of 1961, As A.T.en(jed, Concerning 
Operations Undertaken by the Central Intelligence 
Agency in Foreign Countries, Other Than Those 
Intended Solely for the Purpose of Intelligence 
Collection 



I have been briefed on the efforts being 
parties to obtain the release of Antericans he 
the Middle East, and hereby find that the fol 
in foreign countries (including all support n 
such operations) are important to the nationa 
the United States. Because of the extreme se 
these operations, in the exercise of the Pres 
tutional authorities, I direct the Director o 
Intelligence not to brief the Congress of the 
as provided for in Section 501 of the Nationa 
of 1947, as amended, until such time as I may 



made by private 
Id hostage in 
lowing operations 
ecessary to 
1 security of 
nsitivity of 
ident's consti- 
f Central 

United States, 
1 Security Act 

'iirect otherwise. 



SCOPE 

Hostage Rescue -• 
Middle East 



DESCRIPTION 

The provision of assistance by the 
Central Intelligence Agency to 
private parties in their attempt to 
obtain the release of Americans 
held hostage in the Middle East. 
Such assistance is to include the 
provision of transportation, 
communications, and other necessary 
support. As part of these efforts 
certain foreign materiel and munitions 
may be provided to the Governnient 
of Iran which is taking s .:eps to 
facilitate the release of the 
American hostages. 

All prior actions taken by U.S. 
Government officials in furtherance 
of this effort are hereby ratified. 



The White House 
Washington, D.C. 

Date: 



dxry =^/CO 



wmsd^ 



ER TSC188 85 
CY Of CY- 



160 



2 J^ <^- 



'/Z^ 




rinding Pursu ant to Section 662 of 
_ The Foreign Assistance Act of iQfe i 
-^g Ainendeq. Conc erning QperltTT^TTr 
UnJei taken by the Centr a'l Intein o^nrP 

^Z^l '"7°?^'^" Countries , other Than 
Tho^e i ntended Sol ely tor the P nrp^c^ 
of Intel ligence Collection ""^ — 

cou;^L!;'ancliifna'«?? T" f°l^°«i"9 operation in a foreign 
couniry (Incidaing all support necessary to such ooerationi ic 
impo^^t to the national security of the UnUed ?tateJ aid 
direct^b* Director of Central Intelligence? or hfsdnicSee 
to report this Finding to the intelligence committees of Jhe' 
congress pursuant to Section 501 of the National Security Jet 
of 1947. as amended, and to provide such briefings as 
necessary. »^iiiy«> a& 




SCOPE 



5)eO> 



DESCRIPTION 

Work with indip^lduals and organizations both 
within and outside of Iran, and with selected 
foreign liaison services, and other foreign 
government entities, to identify, develop and 
promote the advancement of moderata alternative 
leaders in Iran. Provide intelligence 
counterintelligence, communications assistance 
and funding to the identified potential 
alternative leaders to promote the 
establishment JDf a more moderate government in 
Iran and thus keduce the threat of terrorism 
directed agairist -U,s. persons, property and 
interests. Protect and support these 
operations by conducting a program of 
deception, unilaterally and through third 
countries, which may include the use of all' 
forns of propaganda. 

Provide arms, equipment and related materiel to 
the Government of Iran to assist in its - 
military operations against Iraq ik order to 
encourage to curtailment of terror'ist activity 
directed against U.S. targets and' interests. 
This assistance will be terminated ifVthe U.S. 
Government learns that this aat^iel iV being 
used for purposes other than th> furtherance of 
Iran's war effort against Iraqi 



The White House 
Washington, D.C. 
Date: 2 January 1986 



UNCUSSIFe 




161 



Finding Pursuant to Section ^^2 ot 
the Foreign A8»iatancg Act of 1961 
^ *A Aaendedi Concerning Op'eratio ns 
OoJ«tf ken bv tne Central Intelligence 
Agency in Foreign countries. Other Than 



3 S.'^^^ 



DRAFT 



Those N Intended Solely tor the Purpose" 
6f Intelligence Collection 

I hereby find that the following operation in a foreign 
countrV (Including all support necessary to such operation) is 
imoortknt to the national security of the United States, land 
due to l.tB extreme'sensltlvlty and security risks, I determine 
It Is el«entlal~to li«lt prior notice, and direct the director 
of Central Intelligence to refrain from reporting this Finding 
to the congress -as provided In Section 501 of the National 
security Act of 1947, as amended, until I otherwise direct. J 

-or- 
r«nd direct the Director of Central Intelligence, or his 
deaianee. to report this Finding to the Intelligence committees 
of the congress pursuant to Section 501 of the National 
Security Act of 1947, as amended, and to provide such briefings 
as necessary.) 



SCOPE 



Iran 



^ 



DEJCRIPTION 

Work with Iranian elemejits, groups and Individuals, 
selected foreign liaisoji services and third countries, 
all of which are sympathetic to U.S. Government 
interests and which do hot conduct or support 
terrorist actions directed against U.S. persons, 
property or interests, for the purpose of: 
(1) establishing a morei moderate government in Iran, 
and (2) obtaining from khem significant Intelligence 
not otherwise obtainable, -to determine the current 
Iranian Government's Intentions with respect to Its 
neighbors and with respect to terrorist acts. Provide 
funds, intelligence, counterintelligence, training, 
quidance and conmunicatlons assistance to these 
elements, groups. Individuals, liaison services and 
third countries in support of these activities. 

Establish contact with the more moderate elements 
within and outside the Government of Iran tb establish 
their credibility with that Government by ihe 
provision of arms, equipment and related ^terlel to 
these elements on condition that these matecial* be 
limited in their use essentially to the /tan-lYaqi 
conflict. This assistance will be dlscAtinued if the 
^ -^ - O.S. Government learns that these elemeht* arej 
\y ^ ^/ \ I misusing or intend to misuse this assistance, for the 
V/^^)A/pAry\ " Jpose of relnstltutmg terrorist action, again.t 
^^^^^■^^ U.S. persons, property or interests, iir otherwise. 

JflKa^^- n^>>ii ipe -neni -Qc ^ 

The White House 
Washington, D.C. j 
Date: 3 January 1986 



DEPOSITION 
EXHIBIT 

:4M 



OGCR Tb L 



^V^^Xr^^.S^ 



1«2 




A^E^fTON.•^»,(o™w«h•aloc«iorI<»of»v^»r,,-^w-.l lt . 



eu««*y « H» WHJ«rd «*-« ^«,d«l ESrjSt«J^j!^Jl^^ 




163 



lINCUSSiFe 



OGC-06- 50031 
3 January 1986 



D 
U 
M 
M 
■ Y 

C 

P 
Y 



The White House 
Washington, D.C. 
Date: 3 January 1986 



Distribution: 

Original - Col. Oil North (copy 1) 

1 - ICA Subject file (copy 2) 

1 - OGC Chrono (dummy copy) 

1 - ILD Opinion file -(dummy copy) 

1 - GDC Signer (dummy copy) 

OGCR TS 0801-86 
copy 1 

Partially Declassified/Peleased on llFC&8 ^ 
under piovisions o( E,0 12356 
by K. Johnson. National Security Council 



164 



mumw 



Pindtnq Pursuant to Section 662 of 

The Porelgn Aaalatance Act of 1961 

Ks Xrencjed, Concerning Operaciona 

Undertatcen by tne Central Intelligence 

Agency m foreign Countries, Ot.'ier Than 

Those Intended Solely for the Purpose 

of Intelligence Collection 



DRAFT 



I hereby find that the following opera 
country (including all support necessary t 
important to the national security of the 
due to its extreme sensitivity and securit 
It is essential to limit prior notice, and 
of Central Intelligence to refrain from r e 
to the Congress as provided in Section 501 
Security Act of 1947, as amended, until I 

-or- 
[and direct the Director of Central Intell 
designee, to report this Finding to the in 
of the Congress pursuant to Section 501 of 
Security Act of 1947, as amended, -^nd to p 
as necessary. ] 

SCOPE DESCRIPTION 



tion in a foreign 
o such operation) is 
United States, [and 
y risks, I determine 

direct the Director 
£0 rating this Finding 

of t"he~ Nat ional 
otherwise direct . ] 

igence, or his 
telligence committees 

the National 
rovide such briefings 



Iran 



SI g. 



s-ai^ 






Work with Iranian elements, groups and individuals, 
selected foreign liaison services and third countries, 
all of which are sympathetic to U.S. Government 
interests and which do not conduct or support 
terrorist actions directed against U.S. persons, 
property or interests, for the purpose of: 
(1) establishing a more moderate government in Iran, 
and (2) obtaining from them significant intelligence 
not otherwise obtainable, to determine the current 
Iranian Government's intentions with respect to its 
neighbors and with respect to terrorist acts. Provide 
funds. Intelligence, counterintelligence, training, 
guidance and communications assistance to these 
elements, groups, individuals, liaison services and 
third countries in support of these activities. 

Establish contact with the moce moderate elements 
within and outside the Government of lean to establish 
their credibility with that Government by the * 
provision of arms, equipment and related materiel to 
these elements on condition that these materials be 
limited in their use essentially to the Iran-Iraqi 
conflict. This assistance will be discontinued if the 
O.S. Government learns that these elements are 
misusing or intend to misuse this assistance, for the 
purpose of reinstituting terrorist actions against 
O.s. persons, property or interests^ or otherwise. 



The White House 
Washington, D.C. 
Date: 3 January 19B6 



/^r--,);tft //> 



T 



UNCUSliT 



OGCR TS 0801-86 



165 



uimnssiFiP" 



T.-J:"': Pursuant to Section 662 of 

Tne rcreign Assistance Act of 1961 

As A'ended. Concerning Operations 

l'nde:ta<en D^ tr.e Central Inte 1 1 ige"nce 

A;ency in Foreign Countries, Other ThTn 

T.".ose Intended Solely for the Purpose 

of Intelligence Collection 

I hereby find that the following operation in a foreign 
country (including all support necessary to such operation) is 
important to the national security of the United States, and 
direct the Director of Central Intelligence, or his designee, 
to_report this Finding to the intelligence co-.-nittees of the 
Congress pursuant to Section 501 of the National Security Act 
of 1947, as amended, and to provide such briefings as 
necessary. 



SCOPE 



Iran 



DESCRIPTION 

Work with individuals and organizations both 
within and outside of Iran, and with selected 
foreign liaison services, and other foreign 
government entities, to identify, develop and 
promote the advancement of moderate alternative 
leaders in Iran, Provide intelligence, 
counterintelligence, communications assistance 
and funding to the identified potential 
alternative leaders to promote the 
establishment of a more moderate government in 
Iran and thus reduce the threat of terrorism 
directed against U.S. persons, property and 
interests. Protect and support these 
operations by conducting a program of 
deception, unilaterally and through third 
countries, which may include the use of all 
forms of propaganda. 

Provide arms, equipment and related materiel to 
the Government of Iran to assist in its 
military operations against Iraq in order to 
encourage to curtailment of terrorist activity 
directed against U.S. targets and interests. 
This assistance will be terminated if the U.S. 
Government learns that this materiel is being 
used for purposes other than the furtherance of 
Iran's war effort against Iraq. 



The White House 
Washington, D.C. 
"^ate: 2 January 1986 



SSifto 



166 




©25J5J3' 



rmdin 


q Pursuant 


to Se 


ct 


ion 662 of 


the For 


eign 


Assist 


ance Act of 


l96l 




As A.Tiended , 


Concer 


nmg 


Ocerat; 


:ons Vndec talten 


5y 


the Centra 


1 Intel 


1 igence 


Acencv 


in Foreign 


COuP. 


tr 


:es, Ot^er 


Than Th 


ose 


ir.ter.d 


ed Sclelv f 


or t."-. 


e 


Puroose of 


Intelli 


gence 


Coilec 


tion 













I ^.ave been briefed on the efforts being trade by private 
parties to obtain the release of Americans held hostage in the 
Middle East, and hereby find that the following operations in 
foreign countries (including all support necessary to such 
operations) are important to the national security of the 
United States. Because of the extreme sensitivity of these 
operations, in the exercise of the President's constitutional 
authorities, I direct tbo Director of Central Intelligence .lot 
to brief the Congress of the United States, as provided for in 
Section 501 of the National Security Act of 1947, as amended, 
until such time as I may direct otherwise. 



SCOPE 

Hostage Rescue 
Middle East 



DESCRIPTION 



The provision of assistance by the 
Central Intelligence Agency to 
private parties in their attempt to 
obtain the release of Americans 
held hostage in the Middle East. 
Such assistance is to include the 
provision of transportation, 
comnunications . and other necessary 
support. AS part of these efforts 
certain foreign material and 
munitions may be provided to the 
Government of Iran which is taking 
steps to facilitate the release of 
the American hostages. 

All prior actions taken by U.S. 
Government officials in furtherance 
of this effort are hereby 
ratified. 



The White House 
Washington, D.C. 

Oate: 




167 



4 j^/u <f> roEPOsmON 

EXHIBIT 



UNCUSSIHED 




e .-a-.arv :m 



Mi^ZPJ^IVM ?:; 



??:m; 



S'JSOECT; 




Cf£;ce of Ger.erai Cour.sel 



Third Country Tctntftr of E<iuipt.«nt Provi<J«d 
Under tht fortign Assist«nc« or Arms Export 
Control Acts 



1. A question has arise 
c«cipltnt of O.S. fortign ai 
Bilitary cquipBcnt provided 
Bccbsnisa to a third country 

this question: one in the c 
the Foreign Assistance Act ( 
equiprent was purchased by a 
Export Control Act (AECA). 
consent to • third country t 
Congress where certain dolla 
eqwiprer.t are involved. 



n undtt wb«t clrcuMtancts • 
litsry assistanct can transfer 

through tb« fortign aatistanct 

Two statutory provisions address 
ontext of grant assistance under 
FAA) and the second where the 

foreign country under the Ams 
Both Acts require Presidential 
ransfer and certification to 
r amounts and specific types of 



FAA S 505, 22 U.S.C. S 2314(a) and (e) 

2. In order to be eligible for nilitary assistance on a 
grant basis, tne recipient foreign country must agree that it 
will net transfer the equipment to another country without the 
consent of the President of the U.S. and that it will return 
the articles to the U.S. when they are no longer needed, unless 
the President agrees to other disposition. 22 U.S.C. 

S 231<(a) (1) and (4). 

3. In considering a request for approval of any transfer 
by gift, sale or otherwise of any implement of war to a third 
country, the President shall not give his consent to the 
transfer unless the United States itself would transfer the 
defense article under consideration to that country. Tht ■ 
Prtsidtnt ahall not givt his conatnt to th« tranaftr of any 
•ignificant dtftnse articlts on tht 0.1. HuaiiiOM llat unless 
tht fortign country rtqutsting consent agrtts to desilitarize 



d-rjr/u ^//S 



ONCLASSIFiEO 




168 



UNCIASSIRED 



V 



pr-.cr tc i:a.-.£!er, o: t.^.t z-.-.-zai 
.en »«»i9r. cowr.3.:y. jp;cv:ees • ccicittert ir. vrltlr? to 
t.-6 lr::ed S-.ate* tY.i'. it viil net tr»r.ff€r »uCh deferce 
4:::cIeE, if not der; 1 ; : a: : zed , tc »r.y otr.er fere:?,-. ccy.r.tty or 
pe:s;r. witLo.t first octa;rir.9 the corsent of the Fresider.t. 
(Cor.ser.t authority was delecated to the Secretary of State in 
Executive Order 12163, $ 1-201 (a) ( 3) , ( 4) , and (5), 
Septerier 29, 1979, 44 Fed. Reg*. S6673.) 



AECASJj 



O.S.C. S 2753. 



4. So defense article or defense .service shall be sold or 
leased by the O.S. to any country or international organization 
unless the country or international organization shall have 
agreed not to transfer title to, or possession of, any defense 
article, unless the consent of the President is first 
obtained. Tb« Prcsidtnt shall not ^ivc hit consent under this 
provision of AECA unless the O.S. itself would transfer the 
articles to that country. In addition, the President shall not 
9ive his consent to the transfer of significant defense 
articles on the O.S. Munitions List unless the transferring 
country agrees to demilitarize the equipnent or the recipient 
nation agrees in writing that it will not further transfer the 
articles. 

5. Under both the AECA and the PAA provision outlined 
above, the President aust report a third country transfer to 
Congress after certain threshold requireaents are reached. The 
President nay not consent to a transfer of major defense 
equipment valued (in terms of its original acquisition cost) at 
more than ^14 million or any defense article valued at sore 
than $50 million (original acquisition cost) to a third country 
unless he submits a certification to the Speaker of the House 
and Senate Committee on Foreign Relations for congressional 
consent to the p.:oposed transfer. 

6. The written certification must contain (a) the name of 
the country proposing to make the transfer, (b) a description 
of the defense article or service proposed to be transferred, 
including its original acquisition cost, (c) the name of the 
proposed recipient, (d) the reasons for the proposed transfer, 
and (e) the date on which the transfer is proposed to be aade. 
Such ccrtifftali4>n will be unclassified except that information 
regarding the dollar value and number of articles may be 
classified if public disclosure would be clearly detrimental to 
security of the United States. Consent to the transfer shall 
not become effective until 30 calendar days after the date of 
the submittal of the certification, and then only if Congress 
does not adopt a concurrent resolution disapproving the 

- 2 - 



IINCUSSIFifD 



169 



s:? .:9i3, ) . 



UNCUSSIFIF-B 



S.zrere Cc^rt in INS v. c-sf-a, <il C.S 



T. F.nct;c.-.s of the r:es;cent under this section, with 
certain exceptions ineppiicatle here, were delesated to the 
Secretary of State by E.O. So. 119S6, January 1£, 1577, Al re; 
Feg. 4j:i. Wi;.-. respect to consent to a third country 
transfer, the Secretary of State is authorized to find, m 
consultation with other federal departments and aiencies, 
w-.etner the proposed transfer will strengthen the security cf 
tr.e I' . S . ar,i prorrote wcric peace. 



Other Considerations 

8. Both the F^ and AECA require th«t content be given^ t^ 
a third country transfer of defense articl** only if the oTs. 
itself would transfer the articles co that countryl This 
caveat triggers a panoply of general policy considerations and 
specific prohibitions relating to foreign military assistance 
including : 

no assistance to Communist countries unless the 
President finds and reports promptly to Congress that 
(1) such assistance is vital to D.S. security; (2) the 
recipient country is not controlled by the 
international Communist conspiracy; and (3) such 
assistance will promote the independence of the 
recipient country from Communism (22 U.S.C. S 2370(f)); 

no assistance to countries encaging in or preparin? 
for aggressive military efforts directed against the 
U.S. or FKS recipient nations, unless the President 
determines that military efforts or preparations have 
ceased and he reports to Congress that he has receive: 
satisfactory assurances they will not be renewed. (Nc 
other FAA waiver provisions may be used.) (22 U.S.C. 
S 2370(1); 

"°aS^^i$*'^lft^ ^^ countrits th^t gsMfit sanctuary tv 
ihWxnat I dn« terrorists; unless the President 
ddt*f«in««- Um national security justif ia« soch 
assfatanet^WMS tapttcta Ida fi444MUJi|.l^tJfae«M' o^' 

the Bouse and the Senate Comnittae on Foria^n 

Relations (22 U.S.C. SS 2371, (PAA), 2753 ( f ) (AECA ) : 

and 

no aaaiatanca to CMUitxivs who have sevarad diplomatic 
relations With tha U.S., or with whom the U.S. has 



3 - 



MJi 



170 







- 4 



mmm 



^*i 14.1. 



171 





ROU' 


SG 




^0 i 44me and Adat«u Date 'in,i,ait 


' ' The President 


^ 1 John M. 


Poindexter ; 


m 1 vor • 


.. ^Jnrth ' ! 


4 i I 




5 ! 




^ i ! 




^ AC'lON 


t 'P'LE 1 


APPROVAL 


INFORMATION 


i COMMENT 


PREPARE REPLY 


CONCURRENCE 


, RECOMMENDATION 


jOiREaREPLV 


1 RETURN 


lOiSPATCH 


|S.GNAT.R£ 


REMARKS 





-VO^w-^t-.- 



: DEPOSITION 
EXHIBIT 



(M^fi 



imttmeo 



N 9545 



NSC/ICS CONTROL NO 40011 



COPY ,\0 / OF L 



HANDLE VIA SYSTEM IV CHANNEL ONLY 



I'NCUISSIFIEO 



'C^ 29 



NSC INTELLIGENCE 
DOCUMENT 



"artially Declas3ified, Released on l I Pc^ 88 
unoer provisions of E 12356 
by K Johnson. National Security Council 



arning Notii 




5\9o 



Warning Notice 

inttlligtnc* SourcM <nd Mtthods Involved 

NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION 
Unauthorittd Oi*<lo»ur« Sub|*ct to Criminal. Sanctions 



mswm 



Deceived 
m 

Cooy ■? ^ece :' 



172 



i 



mmsm 



NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON. O C. tOMt 



SYSTEM IV 
NSC/ICS-40010 



January 4, 1986 



TOP SECRET 



ACTION 



N 9546 




MEMORANDUM FOR JOHN M. POINDEXTER 

FROM: OLIVER L. NORTH*' 

SUBJECT: Covert Action Finding on Iran 



Attached at Tab I is a memorandura from you to the President 
forwarding a Covert Action Finding (Tab A) . This finding is 
based on our discussions with Nir and my subsequent meeting with 
CIA General Counsel Stanley SpcrJcin. 

At Sporkin's request, I tal)c«d to Bill Casey on secure re the 
Finding and the overall approach. He indicated that he thought 
the Finding was good and that this is probably the only approach 
that will work. He shares our goal of achieving a more moderate 
government in Iran through this process. 

RECOMMENDATION ; 

That you sign the memorandum to the President at Tab I. 

Approve Disapprove 



Attachments 

Tab Z - Poindexter Memo to the President 
Tab A - Covert Action Finding 



Partially Declassified/Released nn ' t P&^ 88 
undef provisions 01 EO 12356 
by K. Johnson. National Secu'ify Cc-jncil 




m 



TOP SECRET 



uHWSsro 



173 




N 9547 



HNcussre 



174 



MUM® 



N 9548 



* M P < T i' f t 




IIULrtOi 



175 




rinding Pursuant to Section 662 of 

The Foreign Assistance Act of 196T 

As Amended, Concerning Operations |^ 9549 

Undertaken by the Central Intelligence 

Agency in Foreign Countries, Other Than 

Those Intended Solely for the Purpose 

of Intelligence Collection 

I hereby find that the following operation in a foreign 
country (including all support necessary to such operation) is 
important to the national security of the United States, and due 
to its extreme sensitivity and security risks, I determine it is 
essential to limit prior notice, and direct the Director of 
Central Intelligence to refrain from reporting this Finding to 
the Congress as provided in Section 501 of the National Security 
Act of 1947, as amended, until I otherwise direct. 

SCOPE DESCRIPTION 

Iran Assist selected friendly foreign liaison services and- 
third countries, which have established relationships 
with Iranian elements, groups, and individuals 
sympathetic to U.S. Government interests and which do 
not conduct or support terrorist actions directed 
against U.S. persons, property or interests, for the 
purpose of: (1) establishing a more moderate govern- 
ment in Iran, (2) obtaining from them significant 
intelligencie not otherwise obtainable, to detemine the 
current Iranian Government's intentions with respect to 
its neighbors and with respect to terrorist acts, and 
(3) furthering the release of the American hostages 
held in Beirut and preventing additional terrorist acts 
o- ~ by these groups. Provide fund*, intelligence, counter- 
X ^ intelligence, training, guidance and communications and 
%^|o other necessary assistance to these elements, groups, 
f ^ I individuals, liaison services and third countries in 
^i| support of these activities. 

tat The USG will act to facilitate efforts by third parties 
^S^ and third countries to establish contact with moderate 

§.-= elements within and outside the Government of "Iran by 

P^t providing these elements with arms, equipment and 
i ^ related materiel in order to enhance the credibility of 
=^ \<P these elements in their effort to achieve a more 

^ pro-U.S. government in Iran by demonstrating their 
^ ability to obtain requisite resources to defend their 
country against Iraq and intervention by the Soviet 
Union. This support will be discontinued if the U.S. 
Government learns that these elements have abandoned 
their goals of moderating their government and 
appropriated the materiel for pu^oses other than tha-t 
provided by this Finding. 

The White House l4Alnlt JlOiPIFtf' H-0^°^~^^ 

Washington, D.C. 
Dat«lr t J«M«a_»fl»^ 



176 



binding Pufuant to S«ctlon 662 of 
Th« Foreign A«ii«tan c« Act of TTTT ». nrr, 
A« Aa«nded, ConcTnina Op«r«tlon« '^ y jd\ 
UndTtaken by the cantral Inf lligenca 
Agency in Foreign Countries. Other TKan 
Thoee Intended Solely for the Purpoii" 
of Intelligence Collection 

.«„nL!l^y*^^/^"** ^^?^ ""^^ following operation in a foreign 
country (including all support necessary to such operation) is 
important to the national security of the United States, and due 
to its extreme sensitivity and security risks, I determine it is 
essential to limit prior notice, and direct the Director of 
Central Intelligence to refrain from reporting this Finding to 
the Congress as provided in Section 501 of the National Security 
Act of 1947, as amended, until I otherwise direct. 

SCOPE DESCRIPTION ^ ^ >- 

Assist selected friendly foreign liaison services and 
third countries, which have established relationships 
with Iranian elements, groups, and individuals 
sympathetic to U.S. Government interests and which do 
not conduct or support terrorist actions directed 
against U.S. persons, property or interests, for the 
purpose of: (1) establishing a more moderate govern- 
ment in Iran, (2) obtaining from them significant 
intelligence not otherwise obtainable, to deterroine the 
current Iranian Government's intentions with respect to 
its neighbors and with respect to terrorist acts, and 
(3) furthering the release of the American hostages 
held in Beirut and preventing additional terrorist acts 
by these groups. Provide funds, intelligence, counter- 
intelligence, training, guidance and communications and 
other necessary assistance to these elements, groups, 
individuals, liaison services and third countries in 
support of these activities. 



Iran 



ill 

z 2. S. 



The USG will act to facilitate efforts by third parties 
and third countries to establish contact with moderate 
eleaenta within and outside the Government of Iran by 
providing these elements with arms, equipment and 
related materiel In order to enhance the credibility of 
these eleawnts In their effort to achieve a more 
pro-O.S. government In Iran by deaonstrating their 
ability to obtain requisite resources to defend their 
country against Iraq and Intervention by the Soviet 
Union. This support will be discontinued If the U.S. 
Government learns that these elements have abandoned 
their goals of moderating their government and 
appropriated the materiel for purposes other than that 
provided by this Finding. 



The White House 
Washington, O.C. 
Date: 6 January 198 




177 



sog^ 




flW^aa-zn 



1 01 -r^ 



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F HH^^^^^^^^^^I 

2 Wednesday, July 15, 1987 

3 United States Senate 

4 Select Connlttee on Secret 

5 Military Assistance to Iran 

6 and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

7 Washington, D. C. 

of^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H called as 

9 a witness by counsel for the Select Committee, at the 

10 offices of the Select Committee, Room SH-901, Hart Senate 

11 Office Building, Washington, D. C, commencing at 3:39 

12 p.m., the witness having been duly sworn by MICHAL ANN 

13 SCHAFER, a Notary Public in and for the District of 

14 Columbia, and the testimony being taken down by Stenomask 

15 by MICHAL ANN SCHAFER and transcribed under her 

16 direction. 
17 




H^H(' 



Partially Declassified/Released on. 

under provisions of E 12356 
by K Johnson. National Secunty Council 



VJftwsa 



QOFV NOi I ... 



L 



-coPtes 



178 



IINGWHED 



1 APPEARANCES: 

2 On behalf of the Senate Select Committee on Secret 

3 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 

4 Opposition: 

5 TIMOTHY WOODCOCK, ESQ. 

6 Counsel 

7 THOMAS POLGAR 

8 Investigator 

9 On behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency: 

10 DAVID PEARLINE, ESQ. 

11 Office of Congressional Affairs 



HHGUSW 



179 



mi^SB 



CONTENTS 



WITNESS 



EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF 
SENATE HOUSE 



By Mr. Wdodcock 4 

EXHIBITS 
EXHIBIT NUMBER FOR IDENTIFICATION 

1 26 



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PROCEEDINGS 



Whereupon, 




called as a witness by counsel on behalf of the Senate 
Select Committee and having been duly sworn by the Notary 
Public, was examined and testified as follows: 
EXAMINATION 

BY MR. WOODCOCK: 
Q BH^^mi <^°ul'^ vs begin by having you 
state your name for the record and spell your last name, 
please? 

A ^^^^^^^^^^ 

Q JI^^^^^^^^^^^Blet me put on the record who I 
am. I'm Timothy Woodcock. I'm an Associate Counsel on 
the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition. With me is Tom 
Polgar, who is an investigator with the Committee. 

The deposition is being taken under the 
authority of the Committee, which was created under 
Senate Resolution, and therefore this deposition is part 
of the official inquiry of this Committee. 

Now before we get to the particular subject 
matter that we wish to explore with you today I would 
like to ask you, if you would, to briefly summarize your 
professional career. 



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are responsible for the 
distribution and dissemination of the cable traffic for 
CIA headquarters. 

Q How long have you been in that latter 
position? 

A Since May of 1987. 

Q And what was your position before that? 

A Chief of Operations for the message and data 
communications activity. 



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Q What were your duties in that capacity? 

A I had full operational responsibility for both 
the communications and message processing for 
dissemination and distribution for ths CIA headquarters 
area. 




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MR. POLGAR: I realize we are just speculating 
on this. Now I have another question. With your long 
experience in handling cables I would like you to comment 
on the following. We have the following cite numbers in 
sequence from] 

and so forth. And all of them have been located except 
one. 

What kind of explanation would occur to you, 
based on your experience and giving your imagination a 



UNnSIFIED 



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1 wide range? 

2 THE WITNESS: That would be very difficult to 

3 answer because I don't know what all could have happened. 

4 MR. POLGAR: Hypothetically what could have 

5 happened? 

6 THE WITNESS: For a routine Immediate? 

7 MR. POLGAR: Flash, 

8 THE WITNESS: A Flash message. I would think 

9 from my experience and knowledge of how the systems work, 

10 had a Flash been sent the system, if it had a problem, 

11 would not have acknowledged for that Flash, which is done 

12 automatically. If the distant end did not receive an 

13 acknowledgement of our receipt of that particular 

14 message, then they would have resent it or they didn't 

15 follow procedures, or we didn't follow procedures if 

16 there was a message that was sent and non-delivered. 

17 MR. POLGAR: In your recent experience — 

18 let's say the last five years — have you had much 

19 experience with missing cables? 

20 THE WITNESS: Only during those periods of 

21 time when we had a severe system problem. 

22 MR. POLGAR: When you have a large number of 

23 cables — in this particular period some 69 — all coming 

24 in on schedule and one is missing, that suggests there 

25 was no system problem, doesn't it? 



UimSSIFIED 



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1 THE WITNESS: I do not recall any system 

2 problem in the November 85 time frame. 

3 MR. POLGAK: Have you had any recent 

4 experience with cables missing coming in fromj 
5 

6 THE WITNESS: Since I do not deal on a day-to- 

7 day basis with the actual receipt of cable traffic, I 

8 would be unable to answer that without checking further 

9 with the appropriate officers who do deal in that 

10 situation from day to day. 

11 MR. POLGAR: I accept your point. Let ma 

12 rephrase it. At your level have you participated in any 

13 discussions in headquarters where the topic was the 

14 problem of missing cables? 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 

16 MR. POLGAR: I'm not referring to this 

17 particular instance. I'm referring to a problem that 

18 exists. 

19 THE WITNESS: I have talked with other 

20 divisions over the past three years concerning missing 

2 1 messages . 

22 MR. POLGAR: And how were those problems 

23 resolved? 

24 THE WITNESS: The problem came up in a timely 

25 manner where we could research the various logs, the logs 



iHssinED 



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1 for our switches and the processing through the various 

2 systems, and we were able to provide information to the 

3 particular offices that the messages in question at that 

4 time were received and properly handled through our 

5 systems . 

6 MR. POLGAR: So in fact they were not missing? 

7 THE WITNESS: For those particular messages in 

8 question at that time, they were not. 

9 MR. POLGAR: Are you making a distinction 

10 between a message which is lost in the system or simply 

11 mislaid after receipt? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

13 MR. POLGAR: What you are talking sJsout is 

14 messages that would seem to have been mislaid or 

15 improperly processed upon receipt? 

16 THE WITNESS: Well, the instance which I am 

17 referring to was for another DO division where they felt 

18 that their traffic was not being delivered. They brought 

19 it to our attention. We researched the problem and found 

20 that the problem was within their own registry and not 

21 within the communications and message processing area. 

22 MR. POLGAR: In that particular case the 

23 system could account for the messages? 

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

25 MR. POLGAR: Have you had any experience in 



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1 recent years where the system could not account for a 

2 message? 

3 THE WITNESS: We have had system problems 

4 where a message would be received and would not be 

5 output. Those we have had. They have been few and far 

6 between, but we have had them. But that was when we have 

7 had system problems. We know we're having problems and 

8 they are severe and we are out checking for everything 

9 that we can find to see what is missing. 

10 On a normal day, processing without known 

11 problems, we receive, we deliver. I'm not saying there 

12 isn't some times that a message could go astray without 

13 our knowledge. Normally people will bring it to our 

14 attention if there is something missing. 

15 MR. POLGAR: Let me put it yet another way. I 

16 take it from what you have said — and correct me if I am 

17 wrong — that basically you are satisfied with the way 

18 the system works. 

19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

20 MR. POLGAR: That there are sufficient 

21 safeguards in the system to assure continuing effective 

22 communications for which CIA has been known for many 

23 years? 

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

25 BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

5T. 




♦ i 



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UNCUSSIHED 



37 



1 Q And that was your opinion as of November 1985; 

2 is that correct? 

3 A November '85. 

4 Q And your having gone back and researched the 

5 area surrounding November of '85 has not changed your 

6 opinion that it was satisfactory as of that time, that 

7 your system was satisfactory as of that time? 

8 A It is my opinion that the system was 

9 satisfactory. It was processing as required during the 

10 November 1985 time frame. 

11 MR. POLGAR: I have no further questions. 
MR. WOODCOCK: j^^^^^^^^^H thank you for 

13 coming and being deposed by us. We appreciate your 

14 patience and time. 

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

16 (Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the taking of the 

17 instant deposition ceased.) 



19 Signature of the Witness 

20 Subscribed and Sworn to before me this day of 

21 , 1987, 

22 



23 Notary Public 

24 My Commission Expires: 



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3. MO nit. OECL OAOK HUH li-$2. ^R SECRET. 
END OF neSSAGE 




AMD WILL RE-CONTACT 



INCOMING 



artially Declassified/Released cnJlMtlSSH. 

under provisions of LO. 12356 

by B. Reger, National Security Council 



ftcviCWtO rOM RELEASE 



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i it i- 'V.t-K ■ ■: ii- -. - * ■• ■ 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

^ L , y -^ ff ¥1iS Wednesday, June 10, 1987 

Washington, D.C. 

DeposlClon of DANIEL LYNN CONRAD, taken on behalf 
of the Select Committee above-ciced, pursuant to notice, 
commencing at 10:20 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart Senate 
Office Building, before Terry Barham, a Notary Public in 
and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 



For the House Select Committee: 

THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. 
Staff Counsel 



v^y^ 



Partiallv Declassified/ReleasM on ' 

SPENCER OLIVER , Esq . ^'^'"* "* u^jer provisions of LO. 12356 
Associate Counsel by N. Meiwn. Nationil Security CouBCl 

REN BUCK, Esq. 

Assistant Minority Counsel 



UNCLASSinED 









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For the Senate Select Committee: 



THOMAS McGOUGH, Esq. 




Associate Counsel 




For the deponent: 




ALEXIA MORRISON, Esq. 




Swidler & Berlin 




1000 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W. 




Washington, D.C. 20007 




CONTENTS 




Examination by counsel for 


Paqe 


House Select Committee (Mr. Fryman) 


3 


Senate Select Committee (Mr. McGough) 


61 


EXHIBITS 




Conrad Exhibits 


Marked 


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UNCLASSra 



5.5.Q.CEEDI.NGS 
Whereupon, 

DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 
was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 
was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Will you state your full name for the record, Hr. 
Conrad . 

A Daniel Lynn Conrad. 

Q Before we begin, let me just state for the record, 
that I have provided your counsel with a copy of an immunity 
order which has been issued by the U.S. District Court. That 
was issued after it was represented to us by your counsel 
that you would assert your Fifth Amendment rights in response 
to all questions that would be put to you by counsel for the 
House and Senate Committees at this deposition. 

Let me Just also state for the record, that your 
counsel has also been provided with a copy of the resolution 
establishing the House Committee, and a copy of the rules of 
the House Committee that's conducting this investigation. 



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MR. FRYMAN: I 8 that correct, Ms. Morrison? 

MS. MORRISON: That's correct. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Mr. Conrad, what Is your current address? 

I have two. 

Could I have both of then. 




Q what is your date of birth, Mr. Conrad? 

A 8-5-43. 

Q And your Social Security number? 

A 

Q And would you describe your education for me, 
beginning with your college education. Well, do you have a 
college degree? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. 

A First, I trant off to school. I remember that. 

Q Starting with your undergraduate degree, where did 
you obtain your undergraduate degree? 




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A Northwestern University. 

Q And was that a BA? 

A I think it is. 

Q All right. And what year did you receive that? 

A In 1965. 

Q And what was the field? 

A English and political science. 

Q That's Northwestern University in Illinois? 

A Evanston, Illinois. 

Q Evanston, Illinois. And do you have any graduate 
education? 

A I attended graduate studies at Northwestern 
University and also, the University of Michigan. 

Q For what period of time? 

A r an not sure. It was partitime, and I don't 
remember, exactly. I mean, maybe a year, or two years. I'm 
not positive. 

Q Here you working toward any particular graduate 
degree at Northwestern? 

A I was doing graduate work in philosophy, and I 
can't recall whether I had registered for a degree, or not. 
And at the University of Michigan I was working on my MBA. 



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mmssiFiED 



Q But you did not obtain an MBA, is that correct? 

A I did not obtain an MBA, right. 

Q Now by what organizations have you been employed 
since you graduated from college in 1965, beginning with the 
first? 

A The Ford Motor Company. 

Q And what period of time, and what were your 
positions? 

A I don't have this readily at my fingertips, but 
it's — I can give you my positions more readily than I can 
give you the time. 

Q All right. Give me the positions, and the ap- 
proximate time. That would be satisfactory. 

A I'm trying to recall what my title was . Management 
trainee, I guess, in the first instance. I don't know, i 
had some title, but I've forgotten what it is. 

Q This was with Ford Motor Company? 

A Tes. 

Q And how long did that continue, approximately? 

A Fourteen, 18 months. In that neighborhood. 

Q Where did you work? 

A Dearborn, Michigan, and then I transferred to 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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Chicago, and then my responsibilities changed and I was in 
the--I've forgotten, now, the name of the division, but 
Parts, Autolite. I don't think it was Autolite, but I can't 
remember the name of the division. Anyway, in sales. Tires 
and batteries, and things like that. 

Q And did that employment begin in '65, after college? 

A I graduated in December of '65, so the employment 
started in '66. 

Q All right. And then what did you do after the Ford 
Motor Company employment? 

A I was employed by Northwestern University in the 
Alumni Relations Department. 

Q And for how long did you do that? 

A I think a year; maybe a little longer. 

Q And what did you do after that? 

A And then I worked for Havey, H-a-v-e-y, Fundraising 
Management, Incorporated, in Madison, Wisconsin. No, I'm 
sorry. Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And I was a field director for 
campaigns . 

Q How long did that continue? 

A I'm not positive. A little less than a year. 

Q And was that in the late 1960 's? 



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(101) } H t u t 



UNCIASSIHED 



Yes. 



What were your responsibilities in that position? I 

To run capital campaigns for nonprofit organiza- | 

I 
tions. I 

Q What were the types of clients of Havey Fundraising i 

I 
Management? Can you give me some examples. 

A Hospitals, Campfire Girls, youth organizations, and 

that sort of thing. 



Was that your first employment in the fundraising 



area? 



No. Northwestern University. 
In the alumni office? 
Yes. 

And then, what did you do after Havey Fundraising 
Management? 

A I became a stockbroker. 
Where was that? 
In San Francisco. 
What company? 

Edelatein, Campbell & Company. 
Were you in sales? 
Yeah. I was a registered stockbroker. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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IVMniu CO., MC 



Q And how long did that continue? 
A Two years. 

Q Now, are we up to the early 1970 's now? 
A Yes. 

Q All right. What did you do after working for the 
Edelstein firm? 

A I started my own firm which was called the Institute 
for Fundraising, which was a "dba(-\^ Sole proprietorship. 

Q D-b-a stands for what? 

A Doing business as. Fictitious name, business 
statement. I don't know what it's referred to here. 

Q And how long did you continue with this organiza- 
tion? 

A Seven, eight years, i guess. I'm not sure of the 
number of years, but, in that neighborhood. 

Q What was the business of the Institute for Fundrais 
ing? 

A It presented seminars on the subject of fundraising 
for nonprofit organizations, it also published manuals and 
produced cassette tape recordings, and provided my services 
to clients for fundraising consultation, for public speaking, 
for special projects. 



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Q What was the general method of compensation for you 
with this business? Did you charge by the hour, or did you 
charge a percentage, or — 

A No, no, no. Charged by — usually by day. 

Q And where was the institute based? In what city? 

A San Francisco. 

Q From San Francisco? 

A Yes . 

Q And you say you started as a sole proprietorship? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you have any employees? 

A Yes. 

Q How many employees? 

A When I started out I was — just me and my table. 

Q Right. And seven or eight years later, how many 
employees did you have? More than ten? 

A I'm not positive. The reason I'm not positive is 
b«cau8« I don't remember, exactly, when I incorporated, and 
how many people I had with me at the incorporation point. 
But that's your question and I just don't remember. 

Q Until the point where you incorporated, did this 
business continue as a sole proprietorship? 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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A Yes. 

Q You didn't have any partners in the business? 
A No. 

Q And at some point you incorporated. When that 
occurred, were you the sole shareholder? 
A Yes. 

Q And did you operate under the same name after you 
incorporated? 
A No. 

What was the name, after you incorporated? 
Public Management Institute. 
Was the business basically the same? 
Well, yes, I suppose. 

Well, wore there any ways in which it differed, 
apart from the business structure? Did you expand your 
services after you incorporated? 
A Yes. 
Q In what way? 

A We expanded from fundkaising as our focus to 
management of nonprofit organizations. Management accounting, 
fundtaising, just grantsmanship, all manner of things having 
to do with the management of nonprofit organizations, and 



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also public agencies. That was the reason for the incorpora- 
tion. 

Q And the incorporation and the change of name to 
Public Management Institute, am I correct in understanding 
that was some time in the late 1970 's? 

A Yes. 

Q And you continued to be based in San Francisco? 

A Yes . 

Q And is that organization still in operation? 

A Yes . 

Q And do you continue to be a shareholder? 

A Yes. 
' Q Are there any other shareholders? 

A No. 

Q Now, has the business of Public Management Institute 
remained the same, or have your services expanded over the 
eight or ten years of its existence? 

A It's changed over the years. 

Q What new types of services have you offered, or 
what additional types of services? 

A Well, we've become primarily a publishing firm. 

Q What types of publications? 



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•MLLBI i mU II H I U CO.. M 
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(202) 14< 6 ^ 



A Grant research from corporations, particularly. 

Q Would you explain what that means . 

A Corporations give away in excess of S3 billion a 
year to nonprofit organizations, and we publish the most 
authoritative text in the field on what corporations give how 
much, to whom, what their interests are, and that sort of 
thing. 

Q So you compile the material that's in this publica- 
tion? 

A Through interviews, and public records, and so on. 

Q And your organization both compiles and writes the 
material, and publishes it, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And is this a reference source, or a reference book 
that would be found in libraries, and other organizations? 

A Yes . 

Q What do you publish, other than this reference book? 

A A variety of~I don't know. I think there's 
between 30 and 50 publications that we — and we also distribute 
other people's products. 

Q These 30 to 50 publications, do they come out on a 



periodic basis? 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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A Some . 

Q Like yearly, or monthly? 

A Some . 

Q Some are yearly? 

A Some are yearly. 

Q Are some monthly? 

A Some are monthly. 

Q Would you give me some examples of some of the 
other publications. 

A The Capital Campaign Resource Guide which is a 
directory of funders, of foundations and corporations who 
make grants for capital campaigns to nonprofit organizations. 
It also includes in it a directory of consultants to nonprofit 
organizations on the subject of capital campaigns . 

It includes some other divisions. It's five 
directories in one. And we publish a newsletter on a monthly 

basis called the "Corporate Philanthropy Report,"], which deals 

1/ 
with corporate philanthropy. "^ 

We publish computer software for nonprofits, which 

is an annual directory. We publish an annual directory 

called "Grants for Computer^, j and that's foundations and 

corporations who give grants for computer equipment and 



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services , and things . 

Q NOW the publications that you have so far described, 
are they written or compiled by your employees? 

A Yes. 

Q And you mentioned that you also distributed other 
publications, I believe? 

A Yes. 

Q What types of other publications? 

A Well, anything to do with, oh, general office 
procedures, and interests on the part of nonprofit organiza- 
tions. How to create mailing labels in your office. Things 
like that. 

Q And do you have a catalogue of publications that's 
available through your organization? 

A Yes. 

Q Now you say that your organization is now primarily 
engaged in publishing or distributing publications? 

A Yes. 

Q Are there any other activities of the organization 
at this point? 

A It does research on a contract basis, and it does 
public speaking, provides me as a public speaker, or other 



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people as piiblic speakers at conventions and conferences , and 
seminars, and that sort of thing. We — I don't know — we 
consult with nonprofit organizations on fundraising, as 
needed, as requested. 

Q And the organization is still based in San Francis- 
co? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you have offices in other cities? 

A No. 

Q And you are still the sole shareholder, I believe 
you said? 

A Tes. 

Q In 1986, what was the approximately gross income of 
the organization? Nell, let me phrase it another way: what 
were the total revenues of the organization? 

A I understand your question. I'm not sure I can 
answar it. 

MS. MORRISON: If you don't recall, you don't 
recall. 

THE WITNESS: I just don't remember. 
BY MR. FRTMAN: 

Q Were the revenues in excess of $1 million? 



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Possibly. 

In excess of $5 million? 

No. 



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Q All right. The total number of employees of the 
organization in 1986, did that number exceed twenty-five? 

A No. 

Q Was it more than ten? 

A Maybe. I don't know. 

Q All right. Are the financial records of your 
organization kept on a calendar-year basis or a fiscal -year 
basis? 

A I think on a calendar-year basis. 

Q Now do you draw a salary from the organization, or, 
do you just take profits as a shareholder? 

A Well, it's not clear. I mean, it's not a straight- 
forward thing. 

Q Well, how were you compensated in 1986 from this 
coapany that you've described? 

A They paid some of my expenses, and I think they 
also gave me some cash, but I don't remember how much. 

Q Well, did you make the decision as to how much cash 



you wanted? 



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A Sometimes. I mean, it wasn't a decision. I would 

make a request. I 

I 
Q Well, in your answer you said "they sometimes gave | 

me cash" and I wondered who you were referring to by "they(V i 

A The company. 

Q The cash was given to you in response to a request 
from you for a cash distribution of some sort, is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q In 1986, what was your approximate compensation 
from this company? 

MS. MORRISON: I think he already said he doesn't 
recall, specifically. 

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't recall, specifically. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Well, was it in excess of $100,0007 

A No. 

Q In excess of $50,000? 

A I 'IB not sure. 

Q la this organization sometimes known as PMI? 

A Yes. 

Q Does PMI have a board of directors? 



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A Tea. 

Q Who's on the board? 
A Kenneth Gilman, and myself. 
Q Just two of you? 
A Yes . 

Q And it's a California corporation? 
A Yes. 

Q Is Mr. Gilman also an employee of the organization? 
A Yes. 

Q But he owns no shares of the organization? 
A That's correct. 

Q What are his responsibilities with the organization, 
other than being a board member? 
A He's the president. 

MR. FRYMAM: Bear with me a moment. 

[Pause. ] 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Old PMI at one point have a Seattle office? 
A No. 

Q Did you have an employee in Seattle? 
A Yes . 
Q Who was that? 



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A Well, I mean, I'm not sure how you define "em- 

■ployee/'W I mean, I think he would say he was not an employee. 

Q Who's the individual you're referring to? 

A His name is Craig Smith. 

Q What did you understand his role was in PMI? 

A He continues to be the editor of the corporate 
philanthropy report. 

Q And he is based in Seattle? 

A Yes. 

Q And is that his sole role with the organization? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, Mr. Conrad, I take it you know an individual 
named Carl Channell? 

A Yes . 

Q When did you first meet Mr. Channell 

A I'm not sure of the year. '78 maybe. '79. 

Q What were the circumstances of your first meeting 
with him? 

A I was teaching a seminar on fundraising. 

Q Do you recall where? 

A At the Old Colony Motor Inn in Alexandria. 

Q And was this sponsored by some particular organiza- 



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A Public Management Institute. 

Q And did he pay a fee to attend this seminar? 

A Yes. 

Q And the approximate year, again, was — 

A '78 or '79. 

Q What was he doing, otherwise, then, if you know? 

A He was the national finance chairman of the 
National Conseirvative Political Action Committee, NCPAC. 

Q How many people were attending this seminar, 
approximately? 

A Thirty to fifty. 

Q And you had some conversations with Mr. Channell in 
the course of this seminar? 

A Yes. 

Q Now after the seminar, what was the next occasion 
that you had any contact with Mr. Channell? 

A I don't remember. 

Q When did you first establish any sort of business 
or professional relationship with Mr. Channell, other than 
his attendance at your seminar that you described? 

A It just evolved right after the first meeting. 



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Q What did he ask you to do? 

A He just would call me and ask me for advice. 

Q Would he pay you for this advice? 

A Not in the beginning. 

Q What did he ask you for advice on? 

A Fundpaising for his political cause. 

Q And this was while he was at NCPAC? 

A Yes . 

Q NCPAC Stands for the — 

A The National Conservative Political Action Commit- 
tee. 

Q And NCPAC is spelled N-C-P-A-C. Now there came a 
point when Mr. Channell established his own fundraising 
organization, did there not? 

A Tea. 

Q And that initially was the American Conservative 
Trust? 

A 
present . 

Q 



I don't know exactly which one was first. I wasn't 



Well, you're aware that he established an organiza- 



tion called the American Conservative Trust? 



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Q And another organization called the National 

Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty? 

A Yes. 

Q And those are also known by their initials, ACT, 
and NEPL, are they not? 

A Yes. 

Q And he also established another organization called 
Sentinel? 

A Yes. 

Q And a further organization called the Anti4/rerrorisra 

American Coininittee, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

And the last organization is also known as ATAC, A- 



Q 

T-A-C? 
A 
Q 



I pronounce it different, but, yes. 
All right. Now, after Hr. Channell established one 
or acre of these organizations that we have described, did he 
also contact you about performing services for one or more of 
these organizations? 
A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when that contact first occurred? 
A Well, I can't — it wasn't first, there wasn't — I 



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mean, there probably was a first but I don't remember what 
the first was. 

Q Well, do you remember the circumstances of his first 
calling you about working for one of his own organizations? 

A Well, if you said one of the organizations that 
we've already mentioned — 

Q Yes. 

A --and I would say in — I'm not sure--January or 
February of 1985. He asked me to come to Washington to help 
him organize a fundraising dinner that he was involved with. 

Q What was this dinner? 

A The Nicaraguan Refugee ^und dinner. NRF. 

Q And that was your first association with any of 
these particular Channell organizations that I have described 
just a moment ago? 

A What do you mean by "association"? 

Q Well, your first engagement by Mr. Channell to work 
in any capacity for any of these organizations? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, are you aware of any other organization that 

Mr. Channell established, or was associated with, after he 
left NCPAC? 



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A Yes. 

Q Other than the organizations that I've described? 

A Yes. 

Q What organization, or organizations were those? 

A Channell Corporation. 

Q Anything else? 

A Before I go here? 

Q Yes. 

A No, not that I know of. 

Q Now prior to the dinner that you've just referred 
to, had Mr. Channell engaged you in any capacity with respect 
to the activities of Channell Corporation? 

A Yes. 

Q And what was the nature of those activities? 

A He asked me to consult with him about how he should 
build his consulting business. 

Q How were you compensated for that? 

A On a daily basis. 

Q And what period of time was that? 

A A week. 

Q What year? 

A '83, I think, or maybe '82. I'm not sure of the 



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year. 



I think '83. 



Q And you spent a total of a week's time on that? 

A Yes. 

Q How much were you paid for that? 

A A thousand, $1500 a day. I've forgotten. 

Q Did you provide any written material to Mr. 
Channell as a result of this consultation? 

A Yes . 

Q What was the nature of the written material? 

A A report. Recommendations. 

Q Has this report under 50 pages? 

A Yes . 

Q Under 25? 

A Yes. 

Q Under 10? 

A Yes. 

Q Under 57 

A Yes. 

Q What was the substance of your recommendations? 

MS. MORRISON: This seems, to me, getting a little 
far afield. What he consulted with Channell Corporation on 
in '82 and '83 seems to me to be well beyond what we're about 



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here, as do the compensation questions, frankly, although 
I've let you go with that because I thought it might come to 
an end quickly, but it doesn't seem to be. 

MR. FRYMAN: Let's go off the record a second. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Other than the consulting for a week with respect 
to Channel 1 Corporation that you've described, did you have 
any other association, professional association with Mr. 
Channell before he contacted you about the dinner in early 
1985? 

A I don't know how to answer that question. 

Q Hell, did he pay you any money for any services? 

A No ; no . 

Q Okay. And then he contacted you in early 1985 
about assisting him on the refugee fund dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q And this was for which of his organizations? 

A The National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty. 

Q What did he ask you to do? 

A He asked me to come to Washington to make sure that 



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ONCUSSIFIED 



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the dinner came off as it was scheduled to do. In other 
words, happened properly. 

Q And how much time did you spend on this? 

A Oh, full time. 

Q For how long? 

A 45 days, approximately. 

Q And were you paid at a similar daily rate to your 
earlier consulting services? 

A No. I wasn't. 

Q How were you paid? 

A It wasn't a fixed thing. They just gave me money, 
occasionally. 

Q Hell, what was your total compensation for this 
work for the fund dinner? 

A I think he paid me about $10,000, maybe fifteen. 
I'm not positive. 

Q And did anyone else pay you anything for this 
dinnar? 

A Yes. 

Q Who was that? 

A The Nicaraguan Refugee Fund. 

Q And what did they pay you? 




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A Ten thousand dollars. 

Q And anyone else? 

A Yes. Miner and FraXer. 

Q And what did they pay you? 

A I can't recall, exactly. $1500. 

Q Total? 

A I think so. 

Q And your responsibilities were generally to help 
organize the dinner? 

A In general, yes. Fundbraising, consulting, and, you 
know, the overall structure of the thing, how it happened, and 
the details of putting it together as well as the overall 
structure. 

Q Now, after the dinner, did you have further 
professional association with Mr. Channell? 

A Tas. 

Q What was the next activity? 

A I don't know how to answer that. He just asked me 
to stay on, and — 

Q Did you become an employee of one of his organiza- 
tions? 

A Well, I was still officially a consultant. 



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Q Well, how were you compensated? Did he retain PMI 
to assist his organization, or did he retain you, individual- 
ly, or, what was the nature of the relationship? 

A Well, he didn't worry about that. I mean, it was up 
to me how I wanted it done, and, in the beginning, it was me, 
personally, but it changed to hiring PMI for my services. 

Q Well, what was the period of time that he retained 
you, personally? 

A Well, I think it was September or October. 

Q Of 1985? 

A Right. 

Q And that personal retention began after the refugee 
fund dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q So that would be in April, approximately? 

A Yes . 

Q Now, from April to September-October of 1985, were 
you basically a full-time employee of Mr. Channell and his 
organizations? 

A Well, I was a full-time consultant. 

Q What does that mean? 

A Well, I don't know how else to say that. 



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Q Well, did you work on any other matters, other than 
Mr. Channell's activities? 

A No. 

Q And you were paid by the day, or by the week, or 
what? 

A Well, it kept changing all the time. He would 
basically decide how much to pay me, and he would just do 
that. 

Q In this period between April and the fall of 1985, 
September or October, what was your approximately monthly 
compensation from Mr. Channell? 

A I just don't recall. It kept changing over time 
and I just don't remember. 

Q He just gave you whatever he wanted to give you? 

A Basically. 

Q And you didn't care? 

A No. I was doing it out of friendship. I was 
helping hin do his work, so whatever he wanted to pay me was 
fine with me. I wasn't charging him my normal rates. 

Q And you were not charging any other clients during 
this period for consulting services? 

A That's correct. No, that's not true. I'm sorry. 



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I forget who the organization is. I don't remember the name 
of the organization, but maybe it was the Eastern Educational 
Network. But there are four divisions of the Corporation For 
Public Broadcasting, and I was hired by I think three of 
them. In this period of time I did consult with them, but I 
don't remember which one I was consulting with at the time. 
So I just did a little bit of other things; not much. 

Q So your major activity during this period of time 
was work for Mr- Channel 1 with some minor consulting ac- 
tivities for this l^etwork, and possibly some other organiza- 
tions? 

A Yes. 

Q And you were retained by him as an individual 
consultant? 

A Yes. 

Q And the compensation varied over this period of 



tlM? 



Yes. 



Now that compensation arrangement changed in the 



fall of 1985, as I understand what you're saying? 



How did it change? 



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A Well, instead of the checks being made payable to 
me, they were being made payable to the Public Management 
Institute. 

Q What was the reason for the change? 

A Well, the more appropriate question I think is why 
the checks were ever made payable to me to begin with, which 
they shouldn't have been, and I think my accountant actually 
brought it to my attention. That it shouldn't be personal 
income to me. It should be income to the corporation, 
because 90 percent of all the money I had ever billed in my 
professional life has been billed from the company, not from 
me, personally. 

Q Was there any formal agreement entered into between 
PMI and any of Mr. Channell's organizations? 

A No. It was just an understanding. 

Q How was the compensation fixed? 

A Mr. Channell fixed it. 

Q What was the amount? 

A It varied over time. I mean, it kept fluctuating 
all the time. 

Q Was there a basic monthly retainer? 

A That's what kept fluctuating. 



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Q So beginning in the fall of 1985, Mr. Channell's 
organizations paid a monthly amount to PMI for your services, 
but the monthly amount varied? 

A Yes. 

Q And you were then compensated by PMI? 

A Yes. 

Q After the fall of 1985, did you receive any direct 
compensation from Mr. Channell's organizations? 

A Yes. 

Q When did that begin? 

A At the same time. At the same time. 

Q At the same time being the fall of 1985 when the 
Channell organizations began to pay PMI? 

A Yes. 

Q So your compensation was then in two parts, is that 
correct? A direct salary check from one of Mr. Channell's 
organizations, and a payment to PMI for your consulting 
services? 

A Yes. 

Q Now what was your monthly salary beginning in the 
fall of 1985? 

A I think it was $5000 a month. 



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Q And the monthly payment to PMI varied? 

A Yes. In the beginning it might have been less than 
five thousand. Maybe three or four. I can't remember, 
exactly. 

Q And was the amount paid to PMI per month related to 
the nature of services provided during any particular month 
by you, or anyone else employed by PMI? 

A Yes. 

Q What was it tied to? The number of hours? 

A No. It depended upon the amount of work that PMI 
did as well. PMI did research work. 

Q So was the payment to PMI for services other than 
your own services? 

A Yes. 

Q So your own services were covered by the $5000 a 
month, or whatever the monthly salary was? 

A Yea , Right . 

Q Did you fix the amount of the monthly invoice, or 
statement from PMI ? 

A NO. 

Q Who did that? 



A Spitz. 



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Q So he paid PMI whatever he wanted to pay them? 

A Yes. 

Q So he retained PMI to perform certain services? 

A Yes. 

Q And then, at the end of the month, he would say "I 
will pay you "x" amount for those services"? 

A It was very loose. 

Q And what were the nature of the services that PMI 
for Mr. Channell's organizations from the fall of 1985 
through 1986? 

A Research on corporations and foundations who would 
make grants, who would be prospects for making grants for 
various projects. 

Q Was this research performed by any particular 
employee of PMI? 

A I don't know. I mean, they handled it, you know, 
with their research staff. 

Q All right. Here there any time records maintained 
of how much time was spent on this research? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Hell, you're the sole shareholder of PMI. I mean, 
do you have any idea of whether time records are generally 



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maintained within the organization for this type of consulting 
service? 

A I think they are, but I'm not positive. I'm not 
involved in the day>-to>-day management of the organization. 

Q But the amount of compensation to PMI for these 
services was not related to the amount of time spent on the 
services, is that correct? 

A That's correct. Yes. 

Q That was fixed, arbitrarily, by Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he fix that in consultation with you? 

A Not that I recall. Well I mean, what's consulta- 
tion? I mean, he just said — you know — "I'm going to pay you 
so muchpu We wouldn't have the conversation every month, or 
anything like that. He just would say "I'm going to give you 
more money|^"\. or "less money f. or whatever. 

Q Discussion of the amount for these services would 
always be initiated by Mr. Channell, is that correct? 

A 99 percent of the time. Sure. 

Q Now what was your title with Mr. Channell 's 
organization, or organizations? 



A When? 



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Q After you became an employee in the fall of 1985, 
and, if it changed, give me the different titles. 

A Well, I was nothing fona longtime, so — I don't know 
how else to say that, and — 

Q Well, we'll start with nothing and then, moving on. 

A I mean, sort of gradually, from there, I became 
chiefly, I suppose you would say, executive director. 

Q Of what? 

A Everything. 

Q This is — 

A All the organizations. Every single one of them. 

Q And is this also true of Channell Corporation? 

A Well, no, we didn't do anything, really, there. 

Q But you were executive director of NEPL? 

A I was not executive — well, I don't know if I was 
executive director. This wasn't really official-official, I 
mean, so I — you know — when there was something to be handled, 
adainiatratively, they came to me, and my title was executive 
director. 

Q Did you consider yourself — 

A Actually, now that I think about it, I think I was 
executive director of Channell Corporation. 



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Q Did you consider yourself the number two person in 
Mr. Channell'3 organizations? 

A Yes. 

Q You were his chief assistant or — 

A Administrator, or whatever you want to say. 

Q Administrator? 

A Yes. Sure. 

Q Now, when you commenced your work there in the 
beginning of 1985, in connection with the work for the 
refugee fund dinner, where were Mr. Channell's offices? 

A 305 Fourth Streets Northeast, Washington. 



And those offices moved at some point? 

August of '86. 

And they moved to Pennsylvania Avenue? 

Yes. 

What was the address there? 

1331 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest, Suite 350 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 

South. 

Q All right. Now, when you began, how many employees 

did Mr. Channell have? 

A Four and a half, I guess. 



Who were they? 



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A Including him is five, I guess. Angela Davis. 

Q She was his secretary? 

A Yes. Roger wilkins. 

Q What was his position? 

A Secretary. Cliff Smith. 

Q And his position? 

A Fund raiser. And Steve McMahon who was a consul- 
tant, a CPA consultant. He's the half. 

Q Okay . 

A Is that four? Five? 

Q And then from the beginning of 1985 through 1986, 
were additional fund raisers added? 

A Yes. 

Q Who were they? Has Kris Littledale one? 

A Yes. Krishna S. Littledale. Jane McLaughlin. 
Liam Flannexy. John Lutz. And — why can't I remember these 
naaas? I'm blanking at the moment. 

Q There was at least one other, you believe? 

A Yes. I just can't remember his name. 

Q Did the fund raisers report to you? 

A Oh, the last one was Fred Fried. F-r-i-e-d. Did 
they report to me? 



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Q Yes. 

A Partly, they'd report to me, and they'd report to 
Spitz. Both. It's a small organization. 

Q What were the responsibilities of a fund raiser? 
What did the fund raisers do? 

A At the risk of sounding impertinent, they raised 
money . 

Q How? 

A Well, they would be given prospects to call, and 
they would be told what to say to them — the general line of 
approach — if you would call it that--and they would be 
trained in the techniques of dealing with people on the 
phone, and in person. And they would write letters to them, 
and they would request funds for various projects. 

Q Now who would develop the general line for the fund 
raisers, and who would train them in fun(^aising techniques? 

A Well, that's two questions. 

Q Yes. 

A The first question is Spitz would decide the line, 
and in the second case, the training would be both by Spitz 
and me. 

Q Now you said Cliff Smith was a fund raiser? 



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A Yes. 

Q Did he have any responsibilities, other than being 
a fund raiser? 

A Yes. 

Q What were those? 

A He was I think treasurer of the American Conserva- 
tive Trust. 

Q What did that involve? 

A Oh, he had to handle all the filings with the 
Federal Election Conunission, oversee the recordkeeping of the 
books and records of the organization, financial accounting 
and that sort of thing. 

Q Did he have any responsibilities other than that? 

A He may have. I can't recall. He was primarily a 
fund raiser. 

Q Now you said Steve HcMahon was a CPA who was also a 
consultant, or employed on a part-time basis? 

A Yes. 

Q And were there other accounting employees who 
reported to him? 

A Not at the beginning. Later there were, yes. 

Q Later, was one of those employees, Phil Heo? 



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And another one, Becky Pritchett? 

Yes. 

Now, were additional services performed by Eric 



A Yes. 

Q 

A 

Q 
Olson? 

A Yes . 

Q What did he do? 

A Well, he consulted with us on our computer system, 
and computer purchases, and management, in general. 

Q Did he report to you? 

A No. He reported to Spitz. 

Q Do you know how much he was paid? 

A I'm not sure. 

Q Now is he also employed by another professional 
organization? 

A Yes. 

Q Is he an accountant? 

A I don't think he is. 

Q Or a management consultant? 

A I'm not sure, exactly, what his title is. I think 
it's management consultant, but I'm not positive. 

Q Was he retained to do this work for Mr. Channell's 



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organizations individually, or as an employee of the other 
organization that he works for? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Is he also Mr. Channell's roonunate? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you know how his compensation was esteiblished? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Now am I correct, that the day-to-day administra- 
tive activities of these organizations were under your 
direction? 

A To a degree. 

Q Would you explain that answer. 

A Well, the way it should have worked was Spitz 
should have told me everything he wanted to have done, and 
then I would see that it got done, but he didn't operate that 
way. He would tell me sometimes. He would tell other people 
soBMtimes . Sometimes he would tell several people the same 
thing, producing mass chaos, which he delights in. 

Q Did you have a practice of developing activity 
outlines, or "to^do" lists? 

A Yes. 

Q And you would update those on a periodic basis? 



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A Yes. 

Q And was that one of your principal management tools? 

A Well, it was the way I kept track of the thousands 
of details that needed to be looked into. 

Q To whom did you distribute those outlines? 

A Usually only Spitz, but occasionally, other people, 
depending on the situation. 

Q And you kept a file of the outlines that you had 
generated, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

MR. FRYMAN: Okay. I ask the reporter to mark as 
Conrad No. la group of activity outlines which have been 
produced by counsel for Mr. Channell. These outlines will be 
in two volumes. Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification 
will be the first volume. The page numbers are identified by 
control niinbers that had been stamped on the bottom of the 
outlines by counsel for Mr. Channell. 

In the beginning of this exhibit, there is a list 
of the activity outline page numbers in both of the volumes 
that we will use. This first volume begins with page numbers 
20143-51, and continues through an outline dated December 16, 
1985 which is page numbers 20702-03. 



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UNCLASSIRED 



(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 1 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
BY MR. FRYMAN! 
Q Mr. Conrad, would you look at Exhibit 1 for 
identification. I'm going to ask you a number of specific 
questions about these outlines, but without looking at every 
page, would you generally look through this volume and tell 
me if these are the types of activity outlines that you 
prepared on a periodic basis? 
A Yes. 

Q Okay. Now let me first direct your attention- 
MR. FRYMAN: Let's go off the record a moment. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, I have referred to these documents that 
are included in Deposition Exhibit 1 for identification as 
activity outlines. Now was that the name you used, or, did 
you have another name for these papers? 



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A No. I called these my "to»do" lists. 

Q And were these basically for your own use? 

A Yes. 

Q And I believe you said you gave them to Mr. 
Channell? 

A Yes, only for verification of the details. In 
other words, was I doing what I was supposed to be doing. 

Q But it was your normal procedure to show any of 
these "to do" lists to Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. Normally, I would. 

Q Would he make notes on them, and return them to you? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you retain the copies with his notes? 

A In most cases . 

Q And was your general practice to update these on a 
periodic basis? 

A Weekly. 

Q On a weekly basis? 

A Yes. 

Q And would a lot of the material be repeated in the 
next week's "tOp/do" list? 

A If it didn't get done. 



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Q If it didn't get done? 

A Yes. 

Q If it did*** get done, it would be cut out? 

A Yes. 

Q And then if it didn't get done it would be carried 
over, and then you would add additional items that you would 
plan to accomplish in the following week? 

A It only ever grew. Yes. 

Q Now let me begin by the outline which is dated 
September 8, 1985, which begins on page 20143. There's a 
Roman one there that begins Greene, G-r-e-e-n-e. What does 
that refer to? 

A lit. Col. Oliver North. 

Q What was the reason for referring to him as Greene? 

A I was told to. 

Q By whom? 

A I think Rich Miller and Frank Gomez. 

Q Did they give a reason for calling him Greene? 

A They said that it was very easy to, for the Soviets 
and Cubans, and the Sandinistas, to find out what the 
movements of Colonel North were, and the contra leaders, and 
so they said we had to use code names for everyone. 



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Q Did Mr. Channeil also tell you to call him Greene? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Did you tell anyone else within the organization to 
refer to him as Greene? 

A Oh, I may have. I don't recall, exactly. 

Q You referred to Richard Miller and Frank Gomez. 
Who were they? 

A They're the partners in a firm called International 
Business Communications. 

Q And they were also consultants to NEPL, were they 
not? 

A Yes. 

Q Now under Roman I, Greene, entry capital "A" is 
headed "White House letters 

A Yes. 

Q And then under that, there is item one, "To Barbara 
Newington from RI^'Vi What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to ask Oliver North to get a letter, a 
thanJc^you latter from Ronald Reagan addressed to and sent to 
Barbara Newington who was a contributor. 

Q And what was the reason for wanting that letter? 

u 
A Fundraising authority, I suppose you'd say. In 



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fundraising you need--oh, you might call it an endorsement | 

letter, authorization letter. I don't know. It has a lot of j 

different terms. | 

I 
Q Had Barbara Newington — I 

I 

A Acknowledgement letter, sometimes. j 

Q Had Barbara Newington by September 8, 1985, made a 

substantial contribution to NEPL? I 

I 
A Not substantial enough. 

Q Was this letter intended to obtain a more substan- 
tial contribution from her? 

A Well, it's part of the process. 

Q How is it part of the process? 

A I'm talking about how you create relationships with 
contributors . 

Q Right . 

A You cultivate them, and this was one tool in the 
cultivation process, and it's common in all organizations, 
although in this case it's the President of the United States 

Q So one tool in your cultivation process with 
contributors was to obtain letters from President Reagan? 

A Yes. 

Q And that was done through Colonel North? 



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UNCiiSSIFIED 

Well, we requested it from him. 



Q That was the channel to request such a letter, was 
to go to Colonel North? 

A Well, we also requested it from many other people 
as well. 

Q who else did you request such a letter from? 

A Rich Miller, Frank Gomez, John Roberts. Oh, lord. 
I mean, practically everybody we ran across, we would say. 
Can you get us a letter from the President? 

Q And this particular "to^do" list refers to a 
contact that was to be made to Colonel North for a letter 
from President Reagan to Mrs. Newington? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. You mentioned a John Roberts, who was 
John Roberts? 

A He was on Pat Buchanan's staff at the White House. 

Q What was his position? 

A I don't know. Speechwriter, maybe. I'm not sure. 

Q Now, moving on down on this page 20143, Roman II 
refers to a Dallas trip, and under that, capital "A" is 
"Primary Groupl'V i and there's a list of six names. What does 



that item refer to? 



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A Well, we wanted to see these people when we were 
down there. It was appointments to arrange. 

Q Now item "E" under that refers to a convention, 
does it not? 

A Yes.. 

Q What was that convention? 

A The World Anti-Communist League, WACL, convention. 

Q And under item "E" on page 20144, there are ten 
items listed, and that's surrounded by a parenthesis that 
says "15 packets", I believe. Is that correct? 

A Yes . That ' s correct . 

Q What does the "15 packets" refer to? 

A How many packets to make up to take to Dallas; thus 
what should be in the packets . 

Q To give to the people at the convention? 

A No, no. At the — oh, yeah, I guess the way it is 
structured here. My thinking was that it had to do with the 
priaary and secondary group because that is — maybe he wanted 
some extra ones — I can't remember, exactly — some extra ones to 
pass out at the convention. 

Q But these were packets to be given to prospective 
contributors in Dallas, is that your understanding? 



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A Yes. 

Q And the items listed there were to be included in 
the packets, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And those items included a tax-exempt certificate? 

A Yes. 

Q What was that? 

A I don't know what you — what's the official word for 
it from the Internal Revenue Service? No, the exempt letter. 
It tells you what your number is. 

Q Is this a letter concerning a 501(c)(3) organiza- 
tion? 

A Any nonprofit organization gets a certification of 
its tax-exempt status, whether it's a (c)(3), or (c)(4), or 
(c)(5), (c)(6) — whatever it is — and that letter — it's usually 
two pages — and that we had reproduced and put it in these 
packets . 

Q Now was the purpose of that to indicate to the 
potential contributors that they could take a tax deduction 
for contributions? 

A It was put in so that if they had any question on 
the tax deductibility it would be answered by that, so they 



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could give it to their accountants, or whoever. 

Q And the answer would be yes, they could take a 

deduction? 

A Yes . I 

Q Now item five refers to "Maule airplane specs and i 



brochurear. What is that? 

A It's a small airplane made by the Maule Aircraft 

Company, and we had a brochure. 

Q What was the reason for including that in the 
packet? 

A We would ask people to contribute enough money to 
buy one . 

Q That was one of the purposes that you were raising 
funds for? 

A Yes. 

Q Who had told you that Maule airplanes were needed? 

A Colonel North. 

Q Had he told that to you? 

A Tes. 

Q How item six is "Big plane specs "Vj What does that 

refer to? 

A He said two types of airplanes were needed. I 



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can't remember the other brand, or model number, whatever it 
is, and so, it was other planes that the freedom fighters 
needed to be able to deliver humanitarian aid. 

Q Now did item six, "Big plane specs(J\l was this an 
additional type of plane that was to be purchased with funds 
from contributors? 

A Yes. 

Q And the Maule planes, and the big planes were to be 
used for delivering goods in Nicaragua, is that correct? 

A It may be Honduras, too. 

Q Honduras or Nicaragua? 

A Yeah. Maybe other areas around there. You know, I 
didn't know, exactly. 

Q Now you mentioned humanitarian aid. Were these 
planes also to be used for delivering military supplies? 

A It was never discussed. We specifically discussed 
huaanitarlan aid. 

Q And there's no specific discussion of other types 
of use of these planes? 

A No. I mean, the purpose was to buy them to deliver 
the humanitarian aid. 

Q Now, going back to the preceding page, 20143, under 



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the Dallas trip there's a list of "a|i „ "Primary Group^'L/ "Bjf,/ 
Secondary Group"!, and then set forth, separately, as item "C" 
is Bunker Hunt. First of all, who is Bunker Hunt, and 
secondly, why was he set forth as a separate item in your "to 
do" list? 

A Bunker Hunt is a billionaire and that's why he's 
separate. 

Q He was the only billionaire on the list? 

A Well, maybe Mrs. Schoellekopf is, too, but we 
didn't have as good a relationship with her as Mr. Hunt. 

Q All right. And the plan was on the Dallas trip to 
make fundjraising appeals to the individuals listed here? 

A Yes. 

Q Now on the second page, 20144, there's reference in 
Roman "III" to a September 19th White House meeting. What do 
the items under that refer to? 

A Well, "Request RR to stop in" is a request for the 
President to stop by the meeting and say hello to everyone. 
Go by. A request for Robert McFarlane to stop in at the 
meeting, and make Hay^Adams reservations where we would go for 
dinner and cocktails. 

Q Now were these steps taken? 



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A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Got postponed. I don't know. I guess. I don't 
remember, exactly. 

Q But the meeting was not held on the 19th? 

A No. 

Q Turning to page three of your outline, Roman "Vll" 
refers to Rich and Frank. Who is that? 

A Richard Miller and Frank Gomez. 

Q And item "A" is "Barbara Newington, 9-12 meeting at 
the White House"? Is that what "WH" stands for? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Well, I'm not positive I can recall that. I can't 
remember. She went several times there. I don't remember 
which time this was . 

Q Were there White House meetings requested for Mrs. 
Newington? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason for that? 

A Again, part of the solicitation process, the 



cultivation process. 



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Q All right. Turning to page five of this outline, | 
which is page 20147, there's a reference there to an October | 
18 White House meeting. What does that refer to? j 

A A briefing. A meeting that would be a briefing on i 

1 
the situation in Nicaragua, and it would be held at the White i 

House. I 

Q And that was the meeting you were trying to set up 
for the 18th of October? 

A Yes . 

Q Did that go ahead? 

A It wasn't on that date. 

Q All right. It was postponed? 

A Yeah. Wasn't the 18th? I thought it was the 19th. 
It was the 18th7 17th. Well, fine. Whatever. It was moved 
forward, changed, altered. Something. 

Q Now what does item "Aj'l,/ "Draft letter to RR" refer 
to? 

A I don't remember. I don't remember that. 

Q All right. Item "B" is "Need special invitation 
and literatureAj What does that refer to? 

A Our internal. We needed to develop an invitation 
that would be special, that would look special, and accompany 



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ing literature for us to send to our prospects to get them to I 
•come to the briefing. 

Q And the items under that, on page six, are what 
would be included in that sort of package to the potential 
contributors? 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay. Let's turn to the next outline, Mr. Conrad. 
A Could I ask something off the record? 
MR. FRYMAN: Yes. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN « Back on the record. 

MR. FRYMAN: I would now ask the reporter to mark 
as Conrad Exhibit No. 2 for identification, a second volume 
of the activity outlines, or "totdo" lists, which is a 
continuation of Conrad Exhibit 1. The pages in Deposition 
Exhibit 2 for identification begin with page 20685, and 
continue through page 30002. 

The pages in this volume are the pages that are 
listed on the first page in Exhibit No. 1, between those 
respective numbers . 



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WMhMgnA, O.C 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 2 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Conrad, I'm going to have a number of 
additional questions relating to the activity outlines, or "to/ 
do" lists which are in Deposition Exhibits 1 and 2 for 
identification. During the break, however, Mr. McGough and I 
discussed the approach to the questioning, and we had planned 
on dividing questioning with Mr. McGough covering an area 
later in the deposition. 

During the break we discussed whether it wouldn't 
make more sense to go ahead at this point with his area of 
questioning since it covers events relating to an earlier 
point in time than are reflected in these outlines. 

So, we will now, then, proceed with an area of 
questioning with Mr. McGough which I think will take about a 
half an hour, and then the plan will be to go through that, 
and then, when we finish that area, break for lunch, if 
that's all right. 

MR. McGOUGH: Now Mr. Conrad, of course if you 



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don't understand the question and want some clarification, 
just let me know. 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MH. McGOUGH: 
Q I want to go back to the Nicaraguan refugee dinner, 
or the period during which that was being organized, and 
develop some of the threads of your and Mr. Channel! 's 
activities, or efforts on behalf of the Nicaraguan resistance, 
which we'll call the contraa, if that's all right with you. 

At the time that you were brought in, in early 
1985, to work on the NRF dinner, was there any other aspect, 
or any other activity by Mr. Channell's organizations, to 
your knowledge, that was related to support of the contras, 
or involved with Nicaragua at all? 

A You have to state the question again. 
Q I want to try to get a snapshot of what you 
observed about Mr. Channell's targets, the policies toward 
which he was raising funds at the time you started working on 
the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund dinner. And what I want to know 
is when you began that work, was Mr. Channel 1, or were Mr. 
Channell or his organizations doing anything else in relation- 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



62 



ship to the Nicaraguan situation? Did they have any other 
programs at that time? 

A I think he had an advertising program, or, there 
were some other things going on, but I can't recall, exactly. 
But this was the main activity. 

Q The dinner was the main activity? 
A Yes . 

Q All right. When did you first come in contact with 
IBC, that is, Mr. Miller and Mr. Gomez? 
A In early April of 1985. 

MR. McGOUGH: Now let's have this marked as number 
3. 

(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 3 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
MR. McGOUGH: I'd like to have this marked as 



Exhibit 4. 



(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 4 for identifica- 
tion. ) 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q I now show you what have been marked as Exhibits 3 
and 4, which are handwritten notes that bear the date 3-19- 
85. That would be March 19, 1985, in the upper lefthand 
corner. Is this your handwriting on these notes? 
A Yes. 

Q Now, first of all, just take a minute to look at 
them so that we can get sometime context to some of the 
questions. Do you recall the occasion or the reason you had 
for making these two notes, that is. Exhibits 3 and 4? 
A Yes . 

Q What was that? 

A spitz Channell, and I were discussing with Ambas- 
sador Alvaro Rizo, and Mike Schoor, and his partner, Luman- 
I've forgotten his first name-the possibility of raising 
funds directly for the freedom fighters in Nicaragua. 
Q All right. Now who is Ambassador Rizo? 
A I'm not sure if I have all this totally correct, 
but I'll tell you what I do know. I think he was executive 
director, or president-I'm not sure what his title was-at 
the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund. 



All right. And Michael Schoor? 

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UNCLASSIFIED 



A He was an attorney. 

Q All right. And you mentioned one other person. 

A Luman. It's the firm of Luman and Schoor, but I 
had forgotten Luman 's name. 

Q Now, Exhibits 3 and 4, are they two pages of notes 
written on the same occasion? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. So looking at them together, at the 
time you were having this meeting, had you been introduced to 
IBC, or Mr. Miller or Mr. Gomez, to the best of your recollec- 
tion? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q All right. Now do you recall what kind of a 
assistance you were going to provide to the FDN or the 
contras, or what kind of assistance was discussed at this 
meeting? Was it limited to humanitarian assistance? 

A The points are here. On Exhibit 3, page one, it 
says "American Freedom and Fairness Purposes''], "to develop 
public policy support and grassroots support, US-based public 
relations, and non-rraercenary needs, health care and direct to 
the FDNrl 



Q What do you mean by non^mercenary needs? 



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UNClliSSinED 



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A Non-^lethal. 

Q All right. And when you say "direct to FDNH, 
Adolf o Calero was to whom that aid was going to be supplied? 

A Yes, according to these people. 

Q All right. Now, the Americans For Freedom and 
Fairness, who, or what, are they? 

A Well, I'm not sure if it was — I didn't know the 
exact status of it. It might have been a 501(c)(3). I don't 
know what the official status of it was, and, indeed, whether 
it had been in fact incorporated yet, or was just an idea in 
the planning stages. It wasn't clear to me. It's not clear 
to me now. It may have been clear to me at that time, but I 

don't remember. 

c , 
Q Who is Stu Speiyrer? 

A The name is very familiar but I can't place him. 

Q All right. There's a box two-thirds of the way 
down that page. It says, "Need a letter from Calero asking 
AFF for help, saying AFF is a great groupf ./ 

A Right . 

Q Do you recall who was to get that letter? Was that 
a responsibility that was assigned to someone? 

A Well, I don't know if it was assigned to anybody. 



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It was a request, on our part. 

Q A request on AfF's part? 

A No. On Spitz Channell and my part. 

Q All right. What was the role you foresaw for 
yourself and Mr. Channell in relationship to AFF? 

A FundjTaising consultants. 

Q All right. You were going to be fundtaising 
consultants to AFF? 

A Right. 

Q I see . And the letter that you wanted to get was 
one essentially empowering AFF to raise funds for Mr. Calero? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. Who was going to head up AFF, if you 
know? 

A I assumed the people in the room. Maybe it was 
going to be something different. Maybe I even knew at that 
tlm«, but I don't recall now. 

Q Look at the Exhibit 4 . On the upper right-hand 
comer there's a box that says "Richard Allen, 5K for fifty 
letters, plan, budget, Calero letter, IRS letteijf'T, Do you 
know what that note refers to? 

A Well, the idea was that we should hire Richard 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Allen to help us. 

Q Who is Richard Allen? 

A Former national security adviser. 

Q All right. And do you know where he was employed 
at that point, March 19, 1985? 

A Oh, his consulting firm, I gather. I've never met 
the man. 

Q All right. "5K for 50 letterspl) What's that a 
reference to? 

A The fee we were going to offer him. 

Q Fifty letters being what? What was he supposed to 
produce for his $5,000? 

A Well, I think it was letters of endorsement, but I 
really don't remember. We never did anything. 

Q All right. A third of the way down the page 
there's a note: "Letter, quotes, 'from President ReaganAv 
McParlane memo, and Ollie North memo. We like what you're 
doingfl^ Can you explain those references. 

A Hell, this is all part of the funciraising documenta- 
tion, if you will, or support, or putting together a package 
for credibility purposes when you do a personal solicitation, 
and so we needed to draft a letter from Calero that we wanted 



UNCLASSIFIED 



258 



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IINCIASSIFIED 



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S07 C Smn. N.I. 

~i^M| DC. 2000] 

(»» 141 t m 



him to sign, basically this reference on Exhibit No. 3. And 
we wanted to get a letter from President Reagan supporting 
the freedom fighters in Nicaragua. We would get quotes from 
President Reagan that he'd made in the press, and then 
speeches and things regarding the freedom fighters in 
Nicaragua. We'd put all this into a packet, a memo from 
McFarlane, and a memo from Oliver North. 

Q Old you know, at that time, who Oliver North was? 
A I don't recall. This is the first time my notes 
indicate that I'd even heard the name, but he wasn't a 
familiar person. I didn't meet him until much later. 

Q All right. Moving a couple of weeks later into 
early April, which I believe is the time that you said that 
you met Mr. Miller and Mr. Gomez. 

MR. McGOUGH: Let's have this marked as the next 
exhibit. 

(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 5 for identifica- 
tion.) 
BT MR. McGOUGH: 
Q This is a note dated April 7th, 1985, and again, is 



I 



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W7 C Sam. N E. 
Wakaina. DC 
(202) Ht Hit 



this your handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q All right. Take a moment to look at it, if you 
want. I'm just going to ask you what it relates to. 

A Yes. I understand. 

Q All right. It has a reference to Rich Miller, so 
by that time you had met Mr. Miller, is that fair to say? 

A Yes . 

Q All right. "Helen Marie Taylor, ask her to give' 
Do you know what that means? 

A She's a prospect. 

Q All right. Mr. Miller. There's an item number one 
which is a White House authorization letter "for us and him 
Were you asking Mr. Miller to obtain a White House authoriza- 
tion letter for you? 

A Yes. 

Q And number two is an authorization letter from 
Calero "empowering Rich and us to raise — and again I don't — 

A "X" number of dollars. 

Q — "X" number of dollars, immediately "L Were you 
asking Mr. Miller to obtain such a letter for you? 



A Yes, 



UNCUSSIHED 



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UNCUSSiriED 



Q Number three refers to a meeting. Number four 
says, "Give us the name of 20 donor9\^\J Then there's "Promised: 
1. To raise 50K for their projects. 2. 30 K as their fee for 
the authorization^^ J What is that a reference to? What does 
that mean? 

A That we would hire them to help us, and we would 
say that we would — these are the terms . We would raise 
$50,000 for their projects. They had — Rich Miller and Frank 
Gomez had other projects of their own related to this issue, 
and we would pay them. $30,000 is their fee for getting the 
authorization . 

Q From whom? 

A From Calero. 

Q From Calero. In other words, IBC would receive 
$30,000 as a fee for obtaining Adolfo Calero 's authorization 
to NEPL to raise money? 

A Yes. Well, I can't remember who it was to, but — 

Q Has the fee to be paid to IBC, or was the fee to be 
paid to Mr. Calero? 

A Oh, to IBC. 

Q All right. Did Mr. Miller agree to those terms? 

A I can't recall. 



UNCIASSIRED 



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IMLUII RVOIVTMa CO^ MC 
107 C Snti. N E. 

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UNCLASSIHED 



71 



Q who proposed the $30,000 fee as a fee for the 
authorization letter? 

A Spitz. 

Q Do you recall if Mr. Miller or Mr. Gomez asked for 
a fee for the authorization letter? 

A Oh, no. We offered it. 

Q All right. Do you recall if they accepted that 
offer? 

A I don't think they did. 

Q Do you recall what their answer was, or why they 
didn't accept it? 

A I can't answer either of those questions. I don't 
know. They ended up taking a monthly retainer, but I don't 
remember the dealings that led to that. 

Q Are these notes taken contemporaneously at a 
meeting? 

A It was contemporaneous with a meeting with Spitz, 
not with anybody else. 

Q All right. And was Spitz reporting on a meeting he 
had with IBC, or how did these notes come about? 

A We were just discussing the subject. It's notes to 



myself, really. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



262 



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(Ml) 1« IIH 



UNCLASSIFIED 



72 



Q Has it in advance of the meeting, or after the 
meeting? Do you know? And I guess what I'm focusing on is 
the word "promisedll) in the past tense. 

A Yes. I think that's a mistake. I think it was to 
be promised. 



To the best of your recollection — 
In other words, I'm being empowered to do this. 
To make that offer? 

Yes. You know, I just left off the "to be^ 
All right. I see. So it was anticipatory to 
making this offer, as best you can recollect? 

A Yes. But after a discussion with them about the 
topic in general. We had some things to work with, to 
develop this . 

Q All right. Did there come a tine when you had a 
dinner with Mr. John Ramsey in Texas? 
A Yes. 

Q There has been other testimony that that dinner 
occurred on or about April 10th, 1985. Does that date hit 
you as being approximately correct? 
A Yes. 
Q where did the dinner take place? 



UNCIASSIRED 



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A The Hay;»^Adeuns Hotel. 

Q And who was there? 

A John Ramsey, Rich Miller, Frank Gomez, Spitz 
Channel 1, and myself. 

Q What was the purpose of the dinner? 

A Well, part of the fun<^aising process to raise 
money for the freedom fighters. 

Q Had you, Mr. Miller, Mr. Gomez, and Mr. Channel 1, 
or any subgroup of that, sat down before the dinner and 
talked about what you were going to say to Mr. Ramsey, or 
what approach you were going to make to him? 

A Yes. 

Q And who was engaged in those discussions before the 

dinner itself? 

A I think all of us were, at different times, 
different groups, you know, different subgroups. 

Q Was there a discussion, or did anyone say that Mr. 
Raaa«y was more likely to contribute for lethal aid than for 
non+lethal aid to the contras, in anticipation of this 
meeting? 

A No. 

Q Were there any discussions about the type of 



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UNCUSSIHED 



74 



assistance Mr. Ramsey might be willing to give, leading up to 
this dinner? 

A Well, there was discussions about what he was not 
interested in giving to. 

Q And what was he not interested in giving to? 

A He didn't want to give to the refugees. 

Q All right. Anything else? 

A And he had concerns about giving directly to the 
freedom fighters . 

Q What approach did you decide to take, or did the 
group decide to take with Mr. Ramsey, if you can generalize a 
bit about the pitch you were prepared to make? 

A Hell, we wanted to answer all of his questions, 
tell him what the current situation was in Nicaragua, and 
answer all of his questions about the situation. And 
basically give him an inside picture of what all was going 
on. Allay his fears and concerns, and that sort of thing. 

Q Here there, again, prior to the dinner, discussions 
of the military needs of the contras? 

A Rephrase the question. 

Q Here there discussions of what they needed, 
militarily? What kind of weapons they needed in order to 



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■mw w nwma CO- 1 

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advance their cause? 

MS. MORRISON: At what time? 
THE WITNESS: By whom? 

MR. McGOUGH: Prior to the dinner. I'm trying to 
establish, prior to the dinner, what kind of discussions led 
up to it, by anyone who was attending the dinner, that you're 
aware of. 

THE WITNESS: Well — 

MR. McGOUGH: And let me lay a little foundation 
here. I'm not trying to mousetrap you and I think you 
probably know we're eventually going to go to this document 
that appears to be a transcript of that dinner. 
BY MR. MCGOUGH: 
Q What I'm trying to do is establish if there was any 
discussion before the dinner about things like Red/Eye 
missiles and rounds for AK-478, and specific military lethal 
ne«ds of the contras, leading up to the dinner? 

A Well, the first I ever heard of it was at the 
dinner. 

Q All right. Was the dinner recorded? 

A Yes. 

Q Who recorded it? 



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Did you record it surreptitiously or openly? 
Oh, openly. 

How did you go about doing that? 
I put ray tape recorder in the middle of the room, 
just like this. 

Q Why did you record it? 

A Because Rich Miller and Frank Gomez knew an 
enormous amount about the people involved, the effort 
involved, the facts of the situation in Nicaragua. They had 
been to Nicaragua, and they had been with the freedom 
fighters, and knew all the people, and everything, and we 
didn't. And I wanted to get all of the details of that, so 
that %re could use the facts to weave into funcuraising 
letters, which we would send to potential contributors. 
MR. McGOUGH: Let's mark this as Exhibit 6. 

(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 6 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
BT MR. McGOUGH: 
Q Mr. Conrad, what is Exhibit 6? 



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UNCUISSIFIED 



A A version of the transcript of the meeting with 
John Ramsey. 

Q Who actually transcribed the tape on which you 
recorded this meeting? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Would it have been one of the secretaries? 

A Yes . 

Q You did not do it personally — 

A No. 

Q — is that right? You've seen this document before, 
have you not? 

A Yes. 

Q And recently? 

A Yes. 

Q At the end, I believe there is what appears to be, 
it appears to segue into a fundraising letter or one kind, or 
another? 

A Yes. 

Q Can we agree that at some point the dinner conversa- 
tion ends, and, for one reason or another, whoever was 
transcribing this started transcribing a letter to be sent to 



donors ? 



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A Yes. Without the appropriate break. 

Q Without the appropriate break. Can you put the 
appropriate break on that? 

A Well, I haven't read this enough to — I haven't read 
this recently, so I'd have to go back and redo that, to be 
able to do that. 

MR. McGOUGH: Let me say for the record, Alexia, I 
don't want to go through this whole thing line by line, and 
have it broken up by people, and all that sort of thing. We 
may have to do that at some point, and I appreciate your 
continued cooperation. We're not going to be the first or 
the last people who ask you to do it. 

But I just want to lay a little bit of a foundation. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q He can agree, can we not, Mr. Conrad, that there 
are discussions of lethal military needs by the contras in 
tha course of this dinner, is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Having reviewed this transcript — and granted, that 
it's not broken down by speakers — can we agree that it is a 
fairly accurate, or it is an accurate transcript of the 
dinner that took place, the conversation that took place at 



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JOTCSoMt. NE. 
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that dinner? 

A Yes. Or at least part of it. 

Q Or at least part of it? 

A Sure. 

Q And there are handwritten notes on the copy that 
you've been given. Do you know whose handwriting that is? 

A Well, I think it's either Rich Miller or Frank 
Gomez . 

Q Did you in fact send a copy of this transcript to 
Mr. Miller and Mr. Gomez? 

A I gave it to them. 

Q All right. And did one or the other of them make 
handwritten notes on it? 

A Yes. Or maybe they gave it to somebody else to do, 
but they were responsible for seeing it got done. 

Q Old they ever object to your taping the proceedings? 

A No. 

Q Did they ever object to your transcribing the 
proceedings? 

A Well, I wouldn't say object. 

Q what would you say? 

A They were concerned. After they saw it they said 



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this shouldn't be around for public display, and I said, 
well, it's not, it's only for internal purposes. They said 
okay. This is after they had corrected it. 

Q Then they performed some corrections on it? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know what happened to the original tape? 

A It was probably erased. 

Q Do you have the original tape? Or maybe that's 
better addressed to Alexia. 

A Hell, maybe I have the original tape, but it's 
erased. So, I mean, I don't know which tape it was that had 
that original, erasure on it. I couldn't possibly — 

Q I understand. But to the best of your knowledge, 
this recording haa been erased? 

A Oh, absolutely. 

Q The recording of the dinner? 

A Sure. I mean, this was several years ago. We use 
those tapes all the time. 

Q All right. There are discussions — can we agree 
innere? — for example — of Red/Eye missiles, and the cost of 
the a Red/[Eye missile, and that sort of thing? 



Yes. 



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(»1) U iUtt 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Q Were you the source of information about Red/fEye 
missiles? 

A No. 

Q Who was, if you recall? 

A I think it was Rich Miller, but I'm not positive. 

Q Were you surprised when the conversation took that 



turn? 



No. 



A 

Q Did you understand, going into the dinner, that Mr. 
Ramsey would be asked for money, and told that his money 
might go to buy lethal items like Red^Eye missiles? 

A You have two questions there. Would you like to 
rephrase it? 

Q Well, why don't we break it down. Did you under- 
stand that there would be discussion of things like Red/Eye 
missiles, going into the dinner? 

A Well, like Red/Eye missiles, I'm not sure. 

Q Lethal items? 

A Yes. 

Q You knew that, going into the dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you understand that Mr. Ramsey might be willing 



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to contribute funds toward the purchase of such items? 
A No. I didn't know that at all. 

Q Do you feel, at that dinner on April 10th, that Mr. 
Ramsey was asked to contribute toward the purchase of lethal 
items? 

MS. MORRISON: Don't answer that. You mean you 
want his speculation as to what this transcript reflects? 

MR. McGOUGH: No. Z want his speculation as to 
what Mr. Ramsey was being asked to contribute to. 

MS. MORRISON: Well, the transcript tells you what 
he was asked or not asked. 

MR. McGOUGH: The transcript is incomplete. 

BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q Setting aside the transcript, was Mr. Ramsey asked 
to contribute to the purchase of lethal items at that dinner? 

MS. MORRISON: I mean, that is a conclusion. If 
you want to ask him if he formed an opinion at the time as to 
what Ramsey was being asked for, and whether, having formu- 
lated an opinion, if he did formulate an opinion, he recalls 
what that opinion was, I think maybe you can get at it that 



way. 



BY MR. McGOUGH: 



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Q Having had all those qualifications, do you know 
what you were asking Mr. Ramsey to contribute to? 

A Do I know what he was asked to contribute to? Yes. 
Q What? 

A Direct aid to the contras. 
Q And what do you mean by direct aid? 
A That was not specified. 
Q Was it intentionally not specified? 
A Not to my recollection. 

Q Does "direct aid" include Red/Eye missiles, as 
posed to Mr. Ramsey? 

MS. MORRISON: You're talking about in his opinion, 
what he's thinking now, what Rich was thinking or — 

MR. McGOUGH: That's right. Or what anybody else 
was doing. Did you understand "direct aid" to include 
Red/Eye missiles? 

THE WITNESS: This is very difficult for me to 
answer. I don't know how to answer the question. 
MR. McGOUGH: It's not an easy question. 
THE WITNESS: No, but I just don't know how to 



answer that . 



BY MR. McGOUGH: 



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Q Turn to the last page of the transcript where 
someone is talking about two different kinds of RedJEye 
missiles. There is one that's very unsophisticated, et 
cetera. And someone, at some point says: "So you have to 
have the $8,000 Red/fiye to make it workn.j Can we agree 
that's what the transcript says? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. And do you recall who said that? 

A Well, I think John Ramsey, but I'd have to refresh 
my memory. 

g John Ramsey quoted the $8,000 price for the Red/Eye 
missile? 

A Yeah. Does it appear earlier in the transcript? I 
don't know. 

Q I think there are some prior references . Then 
there's a reference to a tradeoff, and quote: "If you provide 
■oney for anmunition, the money they've set aside for 
anmnltlon can go to boots. On the other hand, if you provide 
money for boots, what they've set aside for boots can go to 
ammunitionr\y All right. Do you recall who said that? 

A I think it was Rich Miller, but I'm not positive. 
Again, I have to re-J^read this to be sure who said what. 



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All right. Those two sentences, beginning, "if 



you 



^provide money for anununition — 
A Yes. 

Q — does that, in your mind, sum up what "direct aid- 
meant, that you were giving them money that was fungible, 
that could be used for either ammunition or humanitarian 
supplies? 

A Yes . 

Q As a professional funafraiser, and someone who is 
familiar with 5Ql(c)(3) corporations — let me back up for a 
moment. The money that you were soliciting from Mr. Ramsey 
was to be paid to whom? 
A I didn't know. 

Q Was it to be brought into NEPL or was it to be 
given directly to Mr. Calero, if you know? 

A Well, I did find out, subsequently. 
Q But did you know at that time? 
A No. 

Q Did you consider the possibility that perhaps this 
type of assistance, or aid, might not be properly solicited 
by a 501(c)(3) corporation? 

MS. MORRISON: You haven't established that he 



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thought it was going to be solicited for a 501(c)(3) corpora- 
tion. He said he didn't know who was going to get the money 
at that point. 

BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q Well, who were the possibilities? 

MS. MORRISON: If he thought about that at the time. 

MR. McGOUGH: If you thought about them at the 
time. Fair enough. 

THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer that. I 
really — at the time. 

MR. McGOUGH: Well, I'm not trying to ask you 
stumpers. I mean, I — 

THE WITNESS: I know you're not intentionally 
trying but you're doing it. 

MR. McGOUGH I Let me try to lead up to it again. 

BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q You were asking this fellow for money, and a 
significant amount of money, by most people's standards, is 
that fair to say? 

A Yes, but it wasn't for us. 

Q You must have had soma understanding, at that 
point, to whom the money was going to go; if not a fixed 



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understanding of the exact entity, at least some vague 
understanding of where, for whom you were soliciting money? 

A Yes. 

Q And how can you describe that, the target of that? 

A Just direct aid to the freedom fighters. That was 
the idea . 

Q All right. At that time, had there been any 
consideration given to bringing this money into NEPL, or any 
other Channell organizations? 

A No. It was specifically avoided. 

Q And why? 

A Because Mr. Ramsey wanted to be sure that his money 
went directly to the freedom fighters without any inter- 
mediary. 

Q How did this solicitation fit into your agreement 
with IBC, or any understanding you had with IBC about what 
NEPL intended to do for the freedom fighters? 

A How did it fit in? I don't understand. 

Q Prior to this dinner you had a meeting or some 
discussions with IBC about forming a relationship, and in the 
course of that relationship soliciting aid for the freedom 
fighters, is that right? 



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A Directly. Yes. 

Q Directly. What was NEPL's role to be in that 
solicitation, or what was Mr. Channell's organization's role 
to be in that? 

MS. MORRISON: If it had been determined at that 
point. 

MR. McGOUGH: Fair enough. 

THE WITNESS: Well, I think in a document — I think 
there's a document you don't have here. But we wanted to do 
two things, and it's actually referred to— we got the idea, 
basically, from Exhibit No. 3, or it's referred to in Exhibit 

No. 3, which is we wanted to develop public policy support 

t 
and grasaroots support, and we wanted to provide non+mercenary 

needs, health care and such, to — direct aid to the freedom 

fighters. And those things got changed as time went on, but 

that was how it was started. 

MR. McGOUGH: All right. 

THE WITNESS: And what was your question? Tell me 
your question again. 

BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q What was NEPL's role in the solicitations that were 
being planned at that point? 



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A Well, it didn't have one at the beginning. i 

Q What were you doing at the meeting with Mr. Ramsey? | 

What was your job at the meeting with Mr. Ramsey? j 

A Well, this is extremely difficult. I don't ' 

understand how to answer the question. My personal job? I 

I 
Q Yes. Let's start there. I 

A Listen and take notes, and make a tape recording, 
and see that everything went all right in the solicitation. 
Monitor what happened, critique it after the fact, prompt 
people beforehand. Consulting things. 

Q All right. Let's move beyond the dinner to a short 
time later, and mark this as Exhibit 7. 

(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 7 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
B7 MR. HcGOUGH: 
Q This is a note, Mr. Conrad, again your handwriting, 
is that right? 
A Yes . 
Q Dated April 20th, 1985? 



Yes. 



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Q Do you recall what sparked this note? 

A Yes. This is a transcript by me from the same tape 
that was used to transcribe the John Ramsey meeting, but 
while the meeting was going on, I took the tape recorder and 
held it close to my mouth, and talked with Rich Miller — sort 
of making notes to myself while the transcript was happening. 
And I wanted to extract those from the tape, so they wouldn't 
get confused in the transcript, and this is a verbatim 
transcript that I made myself, because I knew what I was 
looking for. 

Q Okay. Number one is head, "Idea, colonv),, and then 
there's an idea — people giving money for the value of weapons. 

A Yes. 

Q All right. Now again, this would be money given 
directly to the contras, is that — 

A Well, it wasn't clear at the time. I guess. 

Q All right. Number two is a reference about 
"Contacting" and there's "Wen. "We will contact all weapons 
manufacturers", et cetera. Who is "we"? 

A It was not specific at the time. 

Q All right. Number three also includes a "wef'l) To 
whom is that a reference? 



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A Oh, that's to us, to Spitz Channell and myself. 

Q All right. You needed a thank >you letter from Rich 
and Frank to John Ramsey, and a thank -you letter from Adolfo 
to John Ramsey. That was something you wanted to do as part 
of the fundtaising — 

A Package. 

Q Package. That's a good word. All right. Then 
plus a list of items they need to purchase and their cost. 

A Right . 

Q You and Spitz wanted to obtain a list of the items 
they needed, and their cost, is that-- 

A A fun(^aising package needs to include specific 
items — I mean, in a hospital you have to do the same thing. 
You have to know — you know — how much the X-ray machine costs, 
and how much — specific items, how much they cost, are. 

Q All right. This list that you ware going to get, 
froB whom trare you going to get it? 

A It was just a note. It's a "to=^o" list item. We 
needed to discuss who we might get it from. We didn't know. 
We just made a list of things we needed. 

Q What did you plan to do with it? 

A Well, it would be part of the fund^aising package. 



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Q It would be sent out to donors, or used in some way 
to solicit money from donors? 

A Yes. 

Q And as far as the list of items that they needed, 
were you drawing in your own mind at that point--! 'm only 
talking about you — know in your own mind the distinction 
between lethal and non4lethal supplies? 

A I don't think I thought about it. 

Q Even in light of the Ramsey dinner and the discus- 
sion of weapons at the Ramsey dinner? 

A Well, the reason for discussing the weapons at the 
Ramsey dinner was far different from what direct aid should 
be. 

Q Elaborate on that a little bit. I'm not sure I 
understand. 

A Well, John Ramsey is a worrier, and believes that 
refugees should not be given money, they should be given guns 
and turned around and pointed back toward their border, tell 
the people to go shoot the opposition. I mean, so he wants 
to know his — how will I put it? His hobby is the things of 
warfare. I mean, he follows all that very closely, and the 
discussion in the transcript had to do with — it's basically a 



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discussion of how viable they were, militarily. I don't know 

how else to put that. And it's because his special interest- 

-in other words, he doesn't want to give money to them, if 

they're not militarily viable, if they're going to be a 

"nothing" organization. 

It was not, for example, that he was going to supply 

them the actual weapons, in my view, I mean, that was — 

Q But I think you said, or we were talking about 

direct aid, which, essentially the concept is money is 

r 
fungible and it can be used for either lethal or non4lethal 

supplies. 

A Yes. 

Q Up until the John Ramsey solicitation, had you ever 
been involved in raising money for a fighting force before? 

A No. 

Q Has this a new role for you, to say the least? 

A Oh, absolutely. I'd never done anything political 
before . 

Q Did you have any qualms about doing it? Any 
reservations about doing it? 

A Well, I didn't know what I was — I didn't know what 
the rules and particulars were. I mean, it was a very 



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unusual arena. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



Q Agreed. You say you don't know what the rules and 
particulars were. Do you mean the practical rules or the 
legal rules? 

A Both. 

Q What attempts did you make — 

A I meant mostly, though, the practical ones, not so 
much — 

Q Did you have some reservations about whether or not 
it was legal for you, for a nonprofit organization to be 
involved, even peripherally, in raising money for a fighting 
force, raising direct aid for a fighting force at that time? 

A I didn't have any misgivings about it at the time. 
It had not come up in my experience before. 

Q Did you seek any legal advice at that time about 
what NEFL or a nonprofit organization could or could not do 
in that context? 

A Hell, I can't recall whether we did or we didn't. 
Yeah. I just don't recall. 

Q Do you recall consulting lawyers about anything at 
that point? 

A I'm not sure when it was. 



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Q Obviously it's triggered a recollection that there 

was some consultation with some lawyer about something, is 
that right? And you don't know when it was? 

A Yes. That's correct. 

Q Who was the lawyer? 

A Curt Merge. H-e-r-g-e. 

Q I don't want to penetrate attorney-client privilege, 
but I do want to ask, did the subject of the consultation 
deal with what we've been talking about, that is, what is 
permissible for — 

MS. MORRISONt He's told you the fact of a consulta- 
tion and with whom he consulted, and he is not able to 
identify the timeframe, and we're not going to talk about, by 
illusion to earlier conversations, or by general subject 
matter, what the nature of the consultation was about. It's 
privileged. 

BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q Did you, at some point, have personal misgivings 
about the legality of what you were doing? 

A Yes . 

Q When? When did that first arise? 

A I'm not sure, exactly. I really am not. 



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Q I'm not asking you, exactly, but can you put it in 
some kind of context? Can you relate it to any particular 
event? 

A I think maybe the last — the third or the fourth 
quarter of '85. 

Q So we're talking some time between July 1, '85 and 
December 31, '85? 

A Right . 

Q Do you recall what caused those misgivings? Was 
there a specific catalytic event? 

A No. It was a cumulation of events. 

Q Now, for a period of time after the Ramsey dinner, 
NEPL — and when I speak of NEPL, rather than name all of Mr. 
Channell's various organizations, I'm speaking of them 
collectively as NEPL — NEPL raised and collected, or solicited 
and collected funds that it provided directly to elements of 
tte contra organization, is that a fair statement? And I'm 
<^ing to bracket the period of time from, say, March of '85 
to when the payments or the contributions started to be made 
to IBC. 

Was there a transition period during which NEPL 
collected money for the contras that it then distributed 



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directly to some person or entity representing the contras, 
other than IBC? 

A And what's the time period you're asking about? 

Q April, May, June 1985. 

A Yes. 

Q Did you have any understanding, at that point, as 

to what the aid during that period was directed to, or was to 
be used for? 

A Just direct aid. 

Q In the same sense that we discussed direct aid 
earlier? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 



Yes. 

That is, fungible money? 

Yes. 

To whom, if you know, was that money provided? 

I did not know at the time. 

Have you learned since? 

Yes. 

And who is it? 

I think it was Alpha Services. 

There came a time — moving on a little bit — when 



there was a shift in the contribution mechanism, and the 



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money targeted for the contraa was paid to IBC or some | 

related entity, is that fair to say? j 

A Yes . I 

Q Now there has been testimony by other witnesses i 
about a dinner that took place on July 9th, 1985, and I i 
believe with Colonel North, and some other people there. You i 
were mentioned as one of the people who was present at that 
dinner. Now do you recall that dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you remember why the dinner was put together? 

A Yes. 

Q And why was that? 

A Well, it had several purposes. One was to report 
on our progress o£ the June— something or other — event. I 
don't remember the exact date. So, in other words, reporting 
on our progress of our fundiraising from those people. We 
alao wanted to find out the degree to which we could ask 
Olivsr North for help and assistance, how much access we 
could get to him, and how much help he would give us. I 
mean, there's a whole — I had a huge list of things that we 
wanted to discuss. 

We wanted to discuss worldwide fundraising. I 



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can't remember what else. 

Q Was one of the topics of conversation at dinner how 
NEPL should direct its contributions to the contras? 

A It wasn't planned to be, but it came out to be. 

Q Can you tell me how that came about. 

A I think Spitz asked how we should do things. I've 
forgotten how he phrased it. But Colonel North said that — 
pointing to Rich Miller and Frank Gomez — just pass it through 
them, they'll handle it. 

Q Did he mention IBC, specifically, or, if you recall? 

A I don't think he mentioned IBC, specifically. I 
can't recall, precisely. 

Q And is it fair to say from that point onward, 
contributions directed to the contras, as a general matter, 
went to or through IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q As a professional fund^raiser, did you have any 
rasarvations about that arrangement? 

A No. I thought that was fine. 

Q Did you ask for any assurances or guarantees from 
IBC as to what was happening to the money? 

A I didn't. Spitz was doing it. 



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Q Do you know if he ever got those assurances? 

A They said they would provide the documents. They 

gave us some documents along the way. 

Q When did you first meet Colonel North? 

A The June- -something or other — meeting, briefing. I 

don't remember the date of it. 

Q Between the June briefing and the July 9th dinner, 

do you recall if you had any contact with Colonel North, 
personally? 

A No. 

MR. McGOUGH: Let's just mark this as Exhibit No. 
8. 

(The document above-referred 
to was marked Conrad Deposition 
Exhibit No. 8 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
BT MR. McGOUGH I 
Q I show you what has been marked as Exhibit 8, Mr. 
Conrad, and It's dated September 3rd, 1985. Is that correct? 
A Yes. 
Q And it's in your handwriting, is that also right? 



Yes. 

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Q Do you recall whether a specific event triggered 
the making of this note? 

A Well, Spitz's direction. I mean, I don't know what 
else to say. 

Q They're not notes of a particular meeting that 
sticks in your mind, or anything like that? 

A Well, this was the thing that later resulted in my 
notes. I mean, this is one of the precursor documents, and 
so I would have done this at a meeting with Spitz. 

Q Kind of an embryonic "to^do" list, do you think? 

A Well, this was when I was still doing it, not on 
the computer. 

Q All right. Now the top portion has "Rich and 
Frank "V/ and that's Miller and Gomez, is that right? 

A Yes. 

A 

Q And it has a list below it — "Strategic Review^,, 
"Soldier of Fortune", et cetera, et cetera. Some of them 
include telephone numbers. Can you tell me what that note 
means . 

A Well, we wanted to get information on the contras, 
and what was happening to them, and these were just various 
military publications and Spitz thought we might need to 



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subscribe to these. 

Q Why, with the type of access that at least Mr. 
Miller and Mr. Gomez had, were you interested in information 
on the contras? 

A Good question. 

Q Well, let me back up. Who was supposed to do what 
regarding this note, I guess is the question? 

A Oh, I was supposed to subscribe to these publica- 
tions for our office. 

Q And what is the reference, "Rich and Frank"? 

A They mentioned, they gave me the list of who the 
publications were. You know, which publications were the 
significant ones. 

Q I understand. 

A Now, but, for example, there's "Military Space" on 
there which I have no idea why they would say that. 

MR. McGOUGHt I think that's all I have. We can 
br«aJc for lunch and then go back to the "to>do" lists. 
MR. FRYMAN: We'll resume at 2:15. 
[Lunch recess. ] 



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AFTERNOON SESSION 

(2:30 P.M. ] 
Whereupon, 

DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 
resumed the witness stand following a luncheon recess and, 
having previously been duly sworn, was further examined and 
further testified as follows i 

RESUMPTION OF EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, returning to Deposition Exhibit 1 for 
identification, would you look at the "to do" list in that 
exhibit, dated September 17, 1985, and I believe that begins 
at page 20981. Again that begins with a Roman "1"^ Greene. 
And item "0* under that reads t 'confirm today with Greene 
Ralph's meeting of Tuesday ^(it will probably take 1 hour at 
Graan's office or other locations. ,' 

Now, first of all, that is your note in that "to 
do" list, is it not? You prepared that? 
A Yes. 



Yes. And Greene, again, is North? 

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A Yes. 

Q Now who does Ralph refer to? 

A Well, I think it's Ralph Hixson, but I'm not sure. 

Q Who is Ralph Hixson? 

A He was a contributor. 

Q And where did he live? 

A In Texas. I don't know the town. 

Q Was there also a Ralph Hooper? 

A Yes. But I don't think we even knew him at this 
time. 

Q So you believe this refers to Ralph Hixson? 

A Yes. His name is here, right above it. 

Q Now had he been a prior contributor to any of Mr. 
Channel 1 ' s organizations ? 

A Spitz knew hln. I don't know if he was a con- 
tributor or not. I think he was. I don't know. 

Q What was the reason for confirming a meeting with 
Gr««ne on Tuesday? 

A I don't understand. 

Q Well, let me rephrase it. Were you aware that Mr. 
Hixson had made a contribution to NEPL — and by NEPL I will 
include the other Channell organizations as well — on or 



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around September 17, 1985? 

A Well, I think it was under discussion, and I think 
he did eventually make a contribution, but I don't remember 
the dates . 

Q Has the intended purpose of this meeting, to your 
understanding, to facilitate a fundjtraising effort with Mr. 
Hixson? 

A Broadly speaking, yes. 

Q All right. And again, how would that work? What 
would be the purpose of meeting with Colonel North? 

A Well, it's the same purpose as when any political 
organization in Washington invites contributors to Washington 
for, quote, "a briefingfL close quote, because the whole 
methodology there is that you're getting an inside look, 
fresh, current, up-to-the-minute, not what's in the news, 
insider information. 

Q Did you understand that a meeting with someone such 
as Colonel North added a certain legitimacy to your funerals - 
ing efforts? 

A Well, of course. 

Q All right. And that was one of the purposes of a 
meeting with Colonel North, was it not? 



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A Sure . 

Q Now item "E" on that same page reads: 'follow up | 

'A I 

with Greene on Ross PerotJ^"\y What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to solicit Ross Perot for a major < 
contribution, and so we asked Colonel North whether he knew j 
Ross Perot and how to contact him, and maybe he could arrange | 
the appointment for us, and so on. 

Q What did Colonel North say? 

A Well, I don't remember whether it was on this 
occasion. I don't remember when this happened because we had 
several discussions with Ross Perot — I mean, about Ross Perot. 

Q Let's just focus on Ross Perot at any point in 
time. Would you recount what the efforts were and what 
happened . 

A Well, we wanted to, as I said, solicit Ross Perot 
for a contribution for the freedom fighters, and we — I don't 
know — I can't recall, exactly, how this came up, but he knew 
Ross Perot. I mean, he discussed that with me. And so-- 

Q "He' being Colonel North? 

A Yes. And so we talked about whether or not he 
would be interested, and how we might make an approach to him 
so that he would see us over the issue, and the pro^s and 



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confs of talking with him, and all that sort of thing. 
That's the context. 

Q And did you talk with Ross Perot? 

A No. 

Q You had no contact with him at all? 

A None . 

Q Did Mr. Channell? 

A No. 

Q Did anyone else within NEPL? 

A No. Well, wait a minute. Some of the fund^raisers 
might have tried to call him or something, but none that I 
remember . 

Q Are you aware of any contribution that Mr. Perot 
made, either directly or indirectly, to NEPL? 

A No. 

Q And again, when I refer to NEPL, I intend — 

A You mean all the organizations . 

Q — that to mean all of the Channell organizations. 

A Yes. I understand you. 

Q Prior to the press reports within the last few 
months, had you been aware that Mr. Perot had been making any 
funds available in connection with release of the hostages? 



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A Yes. 

Q When did you become aware of that? 

A I don't remember the time. 

Q What were the circumstances? 

A Colonel North told me. 

Q Where did he tell you? 

A In his office. 

Q What did he tell you about that? 

A Well, he said that Ross had been providing cash, on 
one occasion, over a million dollars in cash for getting the 
hostages out of Beirut. 

Q How did this subject come up in your conversation 
with Colonel North? 

A It was at general discussion about Ross Perot. 

Q And approximately when was this? 

A We discussed it several times. I don't remember. 
N«'re talking maybe third or fourth quarter of '85 again. I 
think it even continued into first quarter of '86. I mean, 
it was sort of a continuous theme. 

Q Was anyone else present in these discussions that 
you had with Colonel North? 

A Not that I recall. 



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Q Was Mr. Channell present? 

A It's possible on some occasions, but mostly it was 
just me. 

Q I take it from your answer, that you had a number 
of meetings with Colonel North where you met individually 
with him? 

A Oh, yes. 

Q Did Colonel North give you any further details 
about Mr. Perot's involvement in release of the hostages, 
other than he had provided some money? 

A He may have said something else, but I don't — I 
mean, that's the thing that sticks out in my mind. 

Q Do you have any recollection of what else he would 
have said? 

A Not as regard the hostages . 

Q What else would he have said about Ross Perot? 

A He said he was — I don't know his exact words, but 
th« point was that he was a person who wanted a lot of 
personal publicity, and that if you wanted to carry on really 
sensitive negotiations and dealings, and things, you had to 
be really careful about Ross Perot's involvement because he 
might hold a press conference and announce that he was 



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involved in this issue, and thereby "blow" the whole deal. 

Q What was Colonel North's reaction to your interest I 
in approaching Mr. Perot about making a contribution to NEPL? | 

A Oh, he said he would try to get us in touch with 
him. He'd raise the issue. He thought there was initially i 
some problems, but he would try to deal with it. < 

Q Do you know what efforts he made? 

A Well, I know what he told me he did. 

Q What did he tell you? 

A He said he talked with Bud McFarlane, and who knew 
him better than Ollie did, and said that he — Bud — had talked 
with Ross, and that Ross was ultimately not interested in 
helping this particular cause. He was involved in too many 
other things. But I don't know for a fact whether that ever 
happened. That's just what I was told. 

Q Right. Had you ever been told, or were you aware 
that Mr. McFarlane had been involved in any other fundraising 
•fforts for NEPL? 

A I think he — what did he do? Well, I think we wanted 
him to come to one of our briefings one time but there wasn't 
any more to it than — this was the only occasion, that I 



recall, where- 



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Q What about efforts by Mr. McFarlane to contact any 
other specific individual? 

A No. We never requested it and it was never offered. 

Q And you'd never been aware of his being involved in 
any such efforts? 

A No. 

Q Also on this same page, item "G" reads: "Greene: 
have a secret project for getting the hostages out of 
Beirut py I What does that refer to? 

A Spitz had the idea that we should raise money to 
provide to Ollie North, from private citizens in the United 
States to get the hostages out of Beirut. 

Q Had that idea been discussed with Colonel North? 

A I discussed it with him. 

Q What did he say? 

A Ha said the project was— I got the impression — 
adequately funded, and they didn't need funds for it. 

Q Was that one of the occasions when he told you 
about Ross Perot providing funds? 

A Maybe. 

Q Did he indicate who else was providing funds, if 



anyone? 



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A No. He didn't. 

Q Did Mr. Channell initiate this idea of NEPL raising j 

funds to use for this purpose or — I 

A Yes. 

Q — did someone else? 

A No, he initiated it. 

Q And did you discuss this with Colonel North on just 
one occasion or more than one occasion? 

A I think just one. 

Q And just again, to summarize his response, it was 
that your assistance was not needed in that regard because 
they had other assistance or other sources of funds? 

A That's my impression of the conversation, but I 
don't remember the exact words or anything. 

Q All right. Now also on this page there's an item 
"F" that reads: "follow up with Greene on World Wide Fund 
Raising^. What does World wide Fund Raising refer to? 

A W« were hearing reports, or seeing reports in the 
press that said that the freedom fighters were raising money- 
.327 or $28 million, from sources outside the United States, ) 
and that was far more than we were raising, and so we thought 
that we were good at fund raising and so we wanted to know — 



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WG knew that the needs of the freedom fighters were much 
greater than we were able to provide. And so we wanted to be 
able to — we wanted to be put in touch with — we wanted to know 
more about these other outside activities, and we wanted to 
be put in touch with the various people and individuals who 
would be interested enough to make a contribution. And this 
was a subject which we discussed on many occasions. 

Q Why did you consider Colonel North a person to 
speak with about this? 

A He was the point man for the Administration on the 
freedom fighters, and if anybody knew, he was the person to 
know, we thought. 

Q And you spoke with him about this world wide fund 
raising on several occasions? 

A Oh, yes. 

Q Here these conversations with you, individually or 
were other persons present? 

A Usually they were with me, but there were occasions 
with other people. 

Q And who were the other people? 

A Rich Miller, Frank Gomez, Spitz Channell. 

Q Can you differentiate what Colonel North told you 



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in the different specific conversations, or do you have a 
general impression of what he told you in the group of 
conversations about this subject? 

A A general impression. 

Q What's your general recollection of what he said in 
these conversations? 

A Well, he said that the press wasn't correct, and 
there wasn't as much money as was reported, and he said he 
didn't know a lot of the details of it. And he always said 
he would try to be very helpful and look into this, and try 
to facilitate it, and all that, but nothing ever happened. 

Q Did he identify any sources of funds? 

A On occasion, yes. They appear in my "to -do" lists. 

Q What sources do you recall, now, that he identified? 

A Sir James Goldsmith. 

Q Who else? 

A That's all I remember at the minute. 

Q Did he identify any other individuals who had been 
involved in the worldwide fund^^raising effort, apart from the 
contributors? 

A You mean as solicitors? 



Yes. 



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A President Reagan. 

Q What did he say about President Reagan? 

A He said that--how did he put it? It was easy to 
raise money for — it was easy to raise money when you had the 
President as your advance man, I think was how he put it. 
And he wasn't being specific about what he did. I mean, he 
just said — 

Q Did he identify any specific contributions that the 
President, as advance man, had been responsible for? 

A No. 

Q Did he identify anyone he'd met with as a, quote, 
"advance man"? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Anyone other than President Reagan? 

A I think he — well, I don't know how this — I don't 
know if I'm exactly answering your question, but we talked 
about General Singlaub and his involvement in worldwide fund 
raising. 

Q What did he say eibout General Singlaub? 

A Well, just that he was involved in it. He didn't 
say — I mean, I think we rattled off a list of country names, 
at one point, where we thought there might be funds, but I 



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can't remember whether he named them, the countries, or I 
provided them to him from my researches in the press. 

Q Did he identify any countries where funds were 
coming from at that point? 

A Well, he mentioned several countries, but he did 
not mention that there were funds coming from the countries . 
Q Which countries did he mention? 
I think! 

I think that's all. 
Did he mention { 
I don't think he mentionec 

Now what did he say about these four countries that 
you've mentioned? 

A I don't recall the specific circumstances, but that 
he thought there were people in those countries who were 
conservatives and strongly supportive of the freedom fighters. 
Q Did he identify any? 
A People? 
Q Tes. 

A Well, as I've said, the only one I recall, off the 
top of my head, is Sir James Goldsmith, and he's not one of 



those four countries . 



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Q Right. Well, going back to Sir James Goldsmith, 
what did he tell you about Sir James Goldsmith? 

A Well, not a lot. He just said he was a wealthy 
person that — I mean, it was in the context of, you know, who 
would be--who'3 wealthy and who's conservative. 

Q Well, did he say that he had provided funds? 
No. 

Did he say how he knew Sir James Goldsmith? 
No. He did not. 
Was it your understanding that Colonel North did 



A 

Q 

A 

Q 
know him? 

A I couldn't tell from the way he said it. It wasn't 
clear. Actually, I think I had the impression that he didn't 
know him because, you know, he didn't introduce us to him. 
In other words, he didn't make a phone call to say you should 
see these people. 

Q Continuing on in this same "to do" list, turning to 
itaa Roman XI, which is the October 17 White House meeting, 
and on page five there is an item "D" which says: "prepare a 
letter for the October military updatef"!- What does that mean? 

A A good question. I don't have any idea. 

Q Did you write this? 



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118 



A Yes. I mean, it doesn't make sense to me now. It 
just doesn't make any sense to me now. Oh, I think it is-- 
I'm deducing — but I think it is — the invitation on the 
previous page--is referred to actually in "B'l, above, what 
was going to be involved in that, and the letter is what we 
would send people, as opposed to one from the White House. In 
other words, the October military update refers to the 
briefing, the content of the briefing. And the letter about 
it is the invitation. It's a letter that we would — it's not 
exactly an invitation. It's a letter we would with the 
invitation. Have an invitation as a part of it. 

Q So in effect it is the communication from NEPL to a 
potential contributor asking them to attend a military 
briefing at the White House? 

A Yes. 

Q Item "F" on that same page reads: "Will the boss 
coaa to the meeting?" Who does "the boss" refer to? 

A Ronald Reagan. 

Q Did he come to that meeting? 

A No. 

Q Did you seek his attendance? 



Yes. 



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Q How? 

A Asked Rich and Frank. Asked Oliver North. 

Q And what was the response? 

A I don't remember the specific instance, but he 
couldn't come. I mean, not available, out of town, someth- 
ing. Who knows? 

Q You mentioned a few minutes ago, that you had a 
number of meetings with Colonel North without Mr. Channell 
being present. 

A Yes . 

Q What was the reason that you had these one-on-one 
meetings with Colonel North? 

A Spitz asked me to be the contact person with 
Colonel North. 

Q And this was a part of your duties as executive 
director — 

A Tea. 

Q — or the No. 2 person in the organization? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the next "to-4o" list, which is September 
21, item "V" again is an October 17 White House meeting. 



Item five? 



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«NClilSSIFI£D 



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Q Roman "V on page 2 . 

A Yes. I have it. 

Q And under that is capital letter "Hl^i "program for 
the eveninq'U And then you have Arabic number one, and then 
small "a" RR, and small "b". Green. Does that mean that you 
were seeking the President and Colonel North to appear at the 
evening briefing? 

A Yes . 

Q How did you seek their attendance? 

A I don't know how to answer the question. 

Q Well, that was the same as your answer with respect 
to the prior outline? 

A Yes . 

Q Okay. Now item 3 there refers to "private meet- 
ings('\^ What do you mean by "private meetings"? 

A With Colonel North. Not in a group setting. In 
his office, or a restaurant, or something. 

Q And what individuals were selected for private 
meetings? Was this — 

A "Hot" prospects. 

Q What do you mean by that? 

A People who we thought might give money. 



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Q I take it this did not include everyone who was 
attending the briefing? 

A True . 

Q It was a selected group? 

A Yes. 

Q And by "hot" prospects, did this mean that they 
would contribute a large amount of money? 

A Sometimes. 

Q Or you anticipated that they might? 

A Sometimes . 

Q What would be the exceptions to that? 

A If they would give some money. I mean, in other 
words, we might not know how much they would give, but we 
thought that they were sufficiently interested, that we would 
go and spend extra tine with them. 

Q Well, you didn't invite anybody to the briefing, 
that you didn't think was interested in making some contribu- 
tion, did you? 

A True . 

Q So there was something additional about the 
individuals who were selected for a private meeting? 

A I think — yea, true. 



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Q And what was that extra element? 

A It's one of two things. A personal relationship 
existing with the solicitor, with the fund^raiser, or, in the 
opinion of the fundfraiser, that they had significant poten- 
tial. 

Q Now the individuals identified here — the first one 
is the "Warms" and then it's marked "day after[^J 

A Right. 

Q Who were the "Warms"? 

A David and Paul Warm. 

Q And the "day after" means that the private meeting 
would be the day after the general dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q The next name is Hitta. 

A Right. 

Q Who were the Witts? 

A It's David Witts. I don't know. I can't remember 
if hia wife waa there or not. 

Q Who is David Witts? 

A A contributor who lives in Texas. 

Q Did he contribute to NEPL? 



Yes. 



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Q Do you remember how much? 

A Well, at least five thousand. I don't remember if 
he gave more. Maybe he did. I can't recall. I think he did 
give more but I don ' t remember how much . 

Q And is Brandon, Inman Brandon? 

A Yes. 

Q And he's an attorney in Atlanta? 

A Yes . 

Q And does Bunker refer to Bunker Hunt? 

A Yes. 

Q Now the next neune is Blakemore. Who is Mr. 
Blakemore? 

A Bill Blakemore. 

Q Who is ha? 

A A Texan. 

Q What's he do? 

A I think he's — I'm not sure. A wealthy person but I 
don't know— 

Q Where does he live? 

A I think he might be in oil, or ranching. I'm not 
sure. 

Q Where does he live? 



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Q 
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how much 
Q 
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Q 
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I don ' t know the town . I'd have to go look . 

And was he a contributor? 

Yes. 

Do you recall how much? 

Again, at least five thousand, but I don't remember 



Who was Seggerman? 

Harry Seggerman and his wife. I forget her name. 

And was he a contributor? 

Yes . 

Where was he from? 

New York. 

What was his occupation? 

I'm not sure I ever knew. 

Do you know the source of his wealth? 

I don't. Not that I recall. I may have known at 
on* time but I don't remember at the minute. 

Q Now turning to the "to-do" list dated September 30. 

A September 3? 

Q September 30. 

A Oh, I'm sorry. 

Q Which begins on page 20152. Now Roman "II" is 



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headed "Public diplomacy programin. What was that? I 

A Well, it was an extensive program that we designed, i 

I 
and we wanted to send speakers around the country from the | 

freedom fighters, explaining what the situation was, and we i 
wanted to do advertising, television advertising, and | 
newspaper advertising. And there were several other com- 
ponents to it. It was a very complex progreun. 

Q Who came up with the idea for this program? 

A Well, at the beginning it just evolved from, I 
suppose you'd say Spitz. It evolved overltime, with several 
people's input. 

Q Was it related to votes in the Congress on Nicaragua 
aid? 

A Well, related? I'm not sure what that — 

Q Well, was an objective of the public diplomacy 
program to influence votes in Congress on Nicaragua aid 
legislation? 

MS. MORRISON: Are you distinguishing in that 
question between an objectira and an anticipated benefit? 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, I think I'll leave the question 
the way it is, if you understand it. 

THE WITNESS: Well, the way I would put it is it's 



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a graa^oots program. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q What do you mean by that? 

A It's intended to give public information — I'm 
sorry — to give the public information on this issue. 

Q For what purpose? 

A So that they'd be better informed. I mean, that's 
what we were all about, public education. 

Q And you say that this program was developed by a 
number of people? 

A Yes. 

Q Who were the people? 

A Well, at the beginning it was Spitz, and then I 
added to it, and Rich Miller added to it, Frank Gomez added 
to it, and then there were about, I think eleven different — I 
don't remember how many--just a huge number of public 
relations firms who we invited to give us presentations on 
how they would conduct such a program. We told them in 
general what we wanted to do, and they then came back to us 
with proposals. So it was a — oh, and our advertising people 
also — Bob and Adam Goodman, also had input to it. 

Q Do you know if this is the first reference in your 



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"to-do" list to the public diplomacy program? 

A Well, I don't know, it may be, but it was existing 
long before this. 

Q When did it begin? 

A Oh, it was extent when I arrived. 

Q Prior to — 

A But we just made up the name, maybe about this 
time. I don't know. 

Q But from early 1985, this had been a major activity 
of NEPL? 

A Right. From our first meeting with IBC. 

Q Now was this a subject that was discussed with 
Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he advise you on the public diplomacy program? 

A Well, advise is not the word I'd use. 

Q What word would you use? 

A He listened and encouraged us to cio on. I mean, in 
other words, he thought we were doing a nice thing, and we 
should continue. 

Q And an integral part of this program was television 
advertisements, was it not? 



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A Yes. 

Q And they were directed to particular media markets? 

A Yes. 

Q How were those media markets selected? 

A It was a very laborious process. I don't remember 
all the steps that took place in the development of it. It 
was very complex . 

Q Were they generally related to the locations of 
particular Congressmen? 

A That was one of the features involved. 

Q What others? 

A The public opinion in the area. The editorial 
content of the major newspapers in the area, that we knew 
about . 

Q Now as to the element of the location of particular 
Congressmen, was that criteria based on how the particular 
Congressmen had voted on Nicaragua legislation? 

A Tea. 

Q And media markets at least with respect to that on^ 
element were selected because a Congressman had voted against 
aid for the Nicaragua resistance? 

A Hell, that was, as I mentioned, not the only reason. 



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Q But that was a factor? 

A It was a factor. 

Q Who is Jimmy Lyon, Houston? 

A He's a banker. 

Q What, was his role in this public diplomacy program? 

A Nothing. 

Q What does he appear as item "B" under this heading, 
Roman "l^Xy public diplomacy program? 

A He used to be rich. 

Q He was not, as of September 30, 1985? 

A Yes, he was, on September 30. 

Q Did you view him as a potential contributor to this 
program? 

A Yes. 

Q Why was he selected, particularly, as a potential 
contributor? 

A Spitz ]uiew him. 

Q Did you contact him? 

A No. 

Q Did someone for NEPL? 



A No. 



Q Why not? 



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A The "to-do" list is quite long. 

Q I don't understand that answer. 

A He had 8 million things we needed to do, and there 
is a whole raft of things we didn't get to, and that was one 
of the things we didn't get to. 

Q All right. Now also, under that heading, item C" 
reads: Follow up with Green on Ross Perot"!, and then it 
states, "proposal due 10-17-85 for $2 million(^ 

A Right. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Well, we wanted to do a public diplomacy program 
that would be very expensive, and we wanted to ask Ross Perot 
for $2 million to help fund that program, and Ollie North said 
that he would convey a proposal for us if we developed one. 

Q Did you develop one? 

A No. 

Q What happened? 

A Well, I can't recall, exactly, but I think the 
project got — we couldn't "nail down" the project. We didn't 
finally do that until well into '86. 

Q Did this become the CAFF program? 



Yes. 



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Q 
A 

Q 
in 19857 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 



That stands for Central American Freedom Program? 

Very good. 

But you did not solicit Ross Perot for this program 



No. 



Did you, in 1986? 

No. Well, we wanted to, but we didn't. 
Why not? 

Well, because we asked — as I mentioned before — we 
asked Colonel North and Bud McFarlane to contact him, and 
that he wasn't interested. They said to us he wasn't 
interested. I'm sorry. Colonel North said to us he wasn't 
interested. So, why bother to prepare a proposal, if he's not 
going to look at it? 

Q Now Fred Sacher's — S-a-c-h-e-r — name appears on a 
number of occasions in these 'to. do" lists. Who was Fred 
S«ch«r? 

A A contributor. 

Q Where did he reside? 

A California. 

Q What did he do? 

A I think he's in industrial real estate. 



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132 



Q Was he anything more than a contributor in your 
activities? Was he involved in preparing a film, or any 
presentation that was used? 

A No. Not that I recall. 

Q So far as you know, his only involvement in NEPL 
was as a contributor? 

A Yeah. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Channell had had a prior 
relationship with Hr. Sacher as a contributor? 

A I don't recall how we got in contact with him. 

Q There's the reference in item "SAsi "get Fred Sacher 
presentation from Ricl^i What does that refer to? 

A Well, we had IBC prepare a presentation on the 
components of a public diplomacy program, and we made it up 
for Rich to give to Fred Sacher, which he did. And so that's 
what it is. 

Q And that was as a basis for seeking a contribution 
txom Hr. Sacher? 

A Yea. 

Q Old he make a contribution? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall the amount? 



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A I also don't remember whether it was at this time. I 

Q All right. Now what's the reference in the j 

I 

preceding item, "Fred Sacher: Gall^ poll of American Aware- i 

. i 

nessr\. what would he have to do with a Gallap poll? I 

A He wanted us to get one. Or in other words, we-- | 

i 
maybe not — how do I put this? We wanted to be able to show l 

i 
Fred Sacher this. In other words, for the Fred Sacher 

presentation we would want to show him what the Gallop poll 

showed. 

Q Turning to item "X' on page five of this outline, 
that's headed "Rich and Frank'y^and I take it these are 
assignments for Rich and Frank, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Now under "AR, October objectives, there's a list 
of various meetings and/or letters with President Reagan, 
including meetings with Barbara Newington, Bunker Hunt, and 
Ellen Garwood. What was the reason you were trying to 
establish meetings between the President and those in- 
dividuals? 

A To facilitate fundlcaising. 



Had they made substantial contributions by that 



point? 



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A Yes. Well, I think so. I'd have to look at the i 

record to know what it had exactly been by that time. What, 

I 

by September 30? j 

i 
Q Yes. I 

I 
A Well, two of them had at least. ; 

Q Which two? I 

A Barbara Newington and Ellen Garwood. I don't know | 

! 

substantial, either. I mean, that's another question. 

Q Well, was the general pattern that a contributor 

would meet with the President at a meeting which you arranged, 

r 
only after there had been a sizeable contribution? 

A I wouldn't say that that was the determining factor. 

Q What was the determining factor? 

A I suppose whether we thought that they might give-- 
that they had potential, that they might give a large amount 
of money. 

Q Do you recall any meeting that NEPL attempted to 
arrange with the President— 

A Yes. 

Q — that involved an individual who had contributed 
less than $300,000? 

A Well, as I said before, at this particular time, I 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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believe Ellen Garwood had given less than $300,000, and I 
believe the warms and Fred Sacher had given less than 
$300,000. I believe Bunker Hunt had given less than 300,000 
as well. 

Q Well, this sheet doesn't say anything about a 
meeting with the President with the Warms, does it? 

A It says "add Sacher and Wannsn,i off to the side in 
my notes . 

Q Oh, all right. That's your handwritten note? 

A Yes. That's correct. 

Q All right. 

A So, you know, it's more of a cultivation technique 
than — I don't know what you said before, but that was the 
purpose of it. 

Q And your route for arranging these meetings at this 
point in time was Rich Miller and Frank Gomez? 

A Chiefly. 

Q And what was the other route? You directly to 
Colonel North? 

A Colonel North, yes. And various other people as 
well. As I mentioned, I asked John Roberts to arrange these 
things , and there are various other people that we came 



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across at different times, and would ask them if they could 
arrange this . 

Q Item 11 here is "dinner with Don Reganry Did such 
a dinner occur? 

A No. 

Q This item indicates you sought to have Miller and 
Gomez arrange such a dinner? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you know why they were unable to do that? 

A They weren't able to do anything on that list. 

Q Turning to the October 7 outline or "to do" list, 
which begins at page 20,000. 

A Yes. 

Q Returning, Mr. Conrad, before we get to the October 
7 outline, to the September 30, 1985 outline, page seven. 
There's an entry which is under the general heading "Lang- 
home Washbun(^,, item "D^ "visit his sister for Spark: 
request SIO-SISK^, . what does that entry mean? 

A Langhorne recommended to us that we go solicit his 
sister for Adolf o Calero. Spark's name means Adolf o Calero. 

Q Who was Langhorne Washburn? 

A He was an Administration official under the Nixon 



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Administration, as I recall. 

Q And do you know what his activities were on 
September 30, 1985, or what his occupation was? 

A Oh, I think he's a consultant, or something. 

Q Also one other question on that page six. There's 
an entry up there, item "E;'^ "Southwest Cattlemen's Associa- 
tion listW What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to get a copy of the list of members of 
the Southwest Cattlemen's Association. 

Q Why a copy of that list? 

A For prospecting. 

Q Seeking prospective contributors? 

A Yes. 

Q Who told you that that would be a rich vein? 

A That's just my own fund^aising experience. 

Q Had you used that list before? 

A No. 

Q All right. Now returning to the October "to-do" 
list beginning on page 20,000, there are a number of items 
there relating to the October 17 Washington meeting. 

And under "Bj^y the dinner, there's an item 3, 
"Sacher film and explanation of public diplomacy program'\. 



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and then written in there is "plus statement of immediate 
■ need^'\y 

Is that writing your writing? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that entry mean? 

A Well, this is an arrangement for the dinner, and we 
wanted to show the film that Fred Sacher had agreed to 
finance, which we did, and explain our public diplomacy 
program, and state the immediate needs for the public 
diplomacy program. 

Q Now what was this film? 

A Well, it was a film of the freedom fighters in the 
field. 

Q Who had prepared the film? 

A Some independent people hired by Rich Miller and 
Frank Gomez. 

Q Had the Goodman Agency been involved in thj,s? 

A Yes. I think they edited it. 

Q But Miller and Gomez had hired independent photog- 
raphers? 

A Am I getting this confused with another — yeah, I 
think they did it and Goodman edited it. So they hired some, 



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139 



a film crew to go down to Honduras and Nicaragua and cut the 
film footage, shoot the film footage. 

Q what did you understand the purpose of this film was 
to be? What was it to be used for? 

A For public education. 

Q Was it to be used for television showing? 

A Yes. 

Q And showing at meetings such as this? 

A Yes . 

Q A variety of different purposes? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the title of the film, if there was one? 

A Yeah, there was. I can't recall at the moment. 
I'd have to look it up. 

Q But there was one particular film that Fred Sacher 
paid for the production? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall what he paid? Was it in excess of 
$100,000? 

A My mind tells met^70,000, but I can't remember for 

^ 

sure. 

Q Now there are also handwritten references on that 



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page to the Larry McDonald Brigade. What was the Larry 
McDonald Brigade? 

A It was a — what'd you call it? — a contingency 
group? — a military unit with the contras, that Adolfo Calero 
set up, and he just called it the Larry McDonald Brigade. 

Q Why do you have these entries on this sheet 
relating to the Larry McDonald Brigade? 

A I think we wanted to make a visit to Barbara 
Newington, and we wanted to take these things with us. 

Q Did you make such a visit? 

A At some point. We'd visit her often. 

Q Did she contribute funds for the Larry McDonald 
Brigade? 

A Yes. 

Q Now on that same page, with regard to the dinner, 
you have an item 6, "prepare briefing packets for all 
attendersA, and item one is "Baldizon quote documents'.. What 
la that? 

A I don't remember who Baldizon is, but the "quote 
documents" — maybe he's somebody in Nicaragua related to the 
contras, something. I'm not sure, exactly. And he made 
statements and we wanted to get his quotes to put in our 



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packet. From newspapers. 

Q What was the nature of the quotes? 

A I don't recall. I can't even recall who he is. 

Q And then item 2 is "Maps to show on strategic 
forces during UNO speeches!' 

A UNO speeches. 

Q UNO speeches? 

A Right . 

Q What is that? 

A Well, during the briefing we wanted people to be 
able to pull out their own map and look at where the speaker 
was talking about. 

Q So these are just small maps of Nicaragua or 
Honduras 7 

A Yes . Right . 

Q So then the individual could identify the area? 

A Right . 

Q Now what is the next item, "MULE, M-U-L-E, aircraft 
brochures " ? 

A It's a mistyping. It's supposed to be Maule, M-a- 
u-l-e. 

Q And were those included in the briefing packets at 



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UNCLASSIHED 



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this October 17 meeting? 

A To my recollection. 

Q And what were the State Department brochures? 

A Oh, we had a whole raft of them. The military 
buildup of the Sandinistas, and Cuban infiltration into 
Nicaragua, and Soviet Union providing of aid and military 
arms, and things to Nicaragua. All publicly available 
documents from the State Department. Not classified.. 

Q Continuing on the next page, there's a notation at 
the top of the page, "insert a handwritten note from RR to 
all $100K — and I take it that means a $100,000 — plus con- 
tributors!^ 

A Yes. 

Q Was that done? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A It was one of the things that Rich and Frank 

couldn ' t get . 

Q And then also on that page, there's a list of a num- 
ber of further private meetings, is there not? 

A Tes. 

Q Who is Mrs. Lynch? L-y-n-c-h. 



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UNCUSSIFIED '" I 

A A Dallas, Texas contributor. 

Q Who is Roz Haley? H-a-1-e-y? j 

A A contributor who lives in Texas, in two towns. I ' 



can ' t remember . 

Q Who's Harry Lucas? L-u-c-a-s. 

A A potential contributor. 

Q From where? 

A In Texas. 

Q Who is Jim Bottari? B-o-t-t-a-r-i. 

A I don't know whether I met hijn. 

Q Do you know where he lives? 

A I think Texas. 

Q Who is Pew? P-e-w 

A It's a Mrs. Pew from Dallas, Texas. 

Q And Mr. Crowley? 

A Mary Crowley, now deceased. 

Q From Texas, again? 

A Yes. Formerly wealthy. 

Q Who is Margaret Brock? 

A A friend of the Reagan's who lives in Los Angeles, 
who's active in politics. 



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A Mrs. Alles. And she lives in Florida, and a 

contributor. ! 

Q Now the next item, item 2 reads, "RR, paren, (group 
grope) f\^ close paren. Is that your phrase? 

A No. 

Q whose phrase is that? 

A Spitz Channell's. 

Q What is a group grope? 

A It was supposed to be a group meeting with the 
President. 

Q Did that occur? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the "to-do" list dated October 12, 1985, 
the first page, 20061, or page 1 of the "to-^do" list, at the I 
bottom it's item 3, and again it reads "MULE — M-U-L-E — 
aircraft brochuresrV and then there's a handwritten note, 
"delete". That is your handwriting, is it not? 

A It is. 

Q What is the reason you wrote that note, "delete" 
there? 

A I don't recall, but it's either because we had it 
or because we couldn't get it. 



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Q Did anyone tell you you should not include these 
brochures in the briefing packets? 

A No. You know, actually now that you mention it, 
maybe that is what happened. I have a vague recollection 
that somebody said that we shouldn't. 1 think Frank Gomez, 
but I can't remember for sure. You triggered something in my 
memory , though . 

Q Do you have any recollection of anyone giving you 
any reason why you should not include those brochures? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the next "to-do" list which is dated 
October 13, pages 1 through 7 of that outline contain a very 
detailed list of items to do in connection with an October 17 
Washington briefing. And there have been similar, if less 
detailed items, in other of your outlines. 

Who developed these detailed entries? Was this 
d«v«loped by you, or by Spitz, or by both of you, or-- 

A A combination. 

Q Did anyone else contribute to this? Did Miller have 
any input? 

A Maybe . 



North? 



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Muja NVaaraM CO. MC 

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UNCLASSIFIED 



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A NO. Rich and Frank I think also had some input 
into this. 

Q Now on page two there's a reference to UNO, U-N-0 
leaders, and, "prepare talking points for theniA,/ and then 
"only one point for each leaderm What does that refer to? 

A They were not very good speakers. This is prompting 
them, you know. 

Q Now on page three, there's a reference in the middle 
of the page, "Spitz present award to Fred Sacher[\., What does 
that refer to? 

A Well, we wanted to recognize Fred Sacher for 
contributing to the film, publicly, in front of everyone else, 
so — 

Q What was the award? 

A I don't remember. I'm aorry. I don't remember. 

Q And then on down on that same page, item 13, 
'Coamandantes present flag awardsA, and the individuals there 
are Mr. and Mr!>. Warm, Ellen Garwood, and Bunker Hunt. What 
does that refer to? 

A Well, we wanted to give flags, American flags, in a 
box, to various contributors. 

Q Why were those three selected? 



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A Because they had especially helped. 

Q They contributed the most? 

A Well, I don't know the most, but — 

Q They'd been large contributors? 

A Yeah. 

Q And then on page four, item 15 is "Spitz concludes 
with appeal 'T,i and that's, I take it, an appeal for contribu- 
tions? 

A Yes . 

Q And was that the usual pattern of these meetings, 
that there would be a meeting at the white House, and you 
would meet with various individuals and would have a briefing, 
and then you would return to the Hay^Adams Hotel and have 
some sort of further meeting, and then, at the conclusion of 
the further meeting there would be an appeal by Channel 1 for 
funds? 

A A "call to the alt^rj"|^ as I prefer to phrase it, 



yn. 



Q And that was the general pattern? 

A Yes . 

Q Why do you call it a "call to the alt^r"? 

A It's a religious analogy to evangelical movement. 



^ 



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much in disgrace these days, but nevertheless works. It's 
where you ask sinners to be saved. 

Q Now on page five, item E" is "private meetings'!, 
again, and under that there's the entry "Green" and then an 
entry "review agenda for private meetings with Green '\.i What 
does that refer to? 

A Well, it's instructions for me to have a meeting 
with Colonel North, and make sure that he talks about items 
that cost about the amount that we think we want to ask, make 
a request from the contributor for. 

Q Was he provided with a copy of this "to-do" list? 

A No. 

Q Well, in this section you have Mr. Ramsey, for 
example, has a confirmed meeting, but you don't have any 
dollar amount by Mr. Ramsey. 

A Yeah. As I recall, we weren't going to ask him for 
any money at that time, at that particular occasion. 

Q What was the reason for a private meeting with Mr. 
Ramsey, then? 

A Because he was very interested in the cause, and 
was following it, and came to Washington, and Spitz and he 



were good friends . 



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Q How did you determine if you would ask for money, or ' 
you would not ask for money at any particular time? ! 

A The fundraising experience of the f und|raisers . I 

Q Who made that determination? Channel 1? 

A Generally, Channell. 

Q And then the next entry is the Warms, and I take it 
underneath that, "request $96K" means $96,000? 

A Yes . 

Q And does your prior answer mean that you would then 
meet with Colonel North to come up with a list of items that 
totalled $96,000? 

A "Come up with" is not the right word. 

Q How would you phrase it? 

A I would say that we told him we want to — that he 
should talk about items which would amount to $96,000. Or we 
would say that we wanted to ask them for $96,000. 

Q Did you have any discussions with Colonel North 
about the types of items that he should discuss with par- 
ticular contributors? 

A No. 

Q That was left up to Colonel North, so far as you 



were concerned? 



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A Yes. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Channell had discussions with 
Colonel North about the types of items he should discuss with 
particular contributors? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q On that same page, under the entry "Bunker Hunt"! 
there's a notation to "tell Bunker there'll be no publicity/"] 
What does that refer to? 

A Of the meeting. In other words, if Bunker attends 
the meeting, the press won't be all over him. 

Q Turning to page eleven of that outline, which is 
your document, page 20875, under "VIl[\,/ Administration, 
there's an entry, "put Bunker funds in money market account^' 
and then, "get checks back from RicH^'y What does that mean? 

A Bunker Hunt had sent us some money, $450,000, I 
believe, and half of it was a loan, and half of it was an 
outright gift, and we hadn't asked for a loan. It just 
arrived. And we were supposed to — with it came the loan 
document, and the check, and so we deposited the check, but 
we didn't sign the loan document. And we fussed around for 
quite some time about what to do about that. And finally we 
decided to put the money in a money market fund, turn 



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WT C Socn. N E. 
Vahiaina. DC. 
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ir.cereat on it, in the event that we would have to repay it 
to Bunker. 

Q What does the entry "get checks back from Rich" 
mean? 

A I'm forgetting, but I believe we wrote checks on 
the money that we deposited, originally, to our account. 
Wrote them to IBC, and so I needed to get them back. 

Q On the same subject of the loan from Bunker Hunt, 
did NEPL repay that loan at some point? 

A Repay the loan? We sent the money back. 

Q You sent the money back? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you pay any interest? 

A I don't think so. 

MR. FRYMAN: Why don't we take a break for about ten 
minutes . 

[Brief recess. ] 

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Mr. Conrad, if you would look at the "to-do" list 
dated October 14, 1985, particularly page one, which is your 
document control page 20014. There's some handwritten notes 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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out to the right headed "BunkerM Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Now item one is "not ask for dollar/\,. is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A It's instructions for me to relay to Colonel North. 

Q Was Colonel North going to be meeting with Mr. 
Bunker Hunt? 

A Yes . 

Q Where? 

A At the White House. 

Q Is that what the second item refers to, "Friday 
a.m. meeting at White House"? 

A Yes. 

Q Now who told you that he should not ask Mr. Hunt 
for dollars? 

A Well, it's not that he shouldn't ask; it's that we 
weren't going to ask him for dollars. 



Q Why not? 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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A Well, occasionally we would give contributors daily 
pledge forms to fill out — I'm exaggerating to make a point — 

but asked them all the time, and then occasionally we would 

I 
ask contributors — not ask contributors to give. We would i 

just want to see them and "massage" them and "fluff' them, j 

I 
and work with them, and cultivate them. And this was one of I 

the times where we weren't going to ask for money. 

Q Who made that decision? 

A Spitz. 

Q Were you involved in that decision? Did you 

participate in it? 

A Yeah, probably. I don't remember this specific 

thing, but I mean, we would normally discuss such things. 

Q Now item three under "Bunker" reads: "UNO — U-N-0 — 

will be here"? 

A Right . 

What does that refer to? 

The leaders , UNO leaders . 

And were they to be present at the meeting with 



Q 
A 

Q 
Bunker? 

A 
briefing. 



No. They were to be present at the October 17th 



UNcussra 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q Why is that entry under the heading 'Bunker'? 

A These are items to be brought up to--r6lating to 
Bunker that need to be brought up to Oliver North. 

Q Why did — 

A So in other words, Oliver North is going to have a 
conversation with Bunker, and these are either various points 
he has to keep in mind while he's talking with him, or be 
sure to mention, or whatever. So that he was supposed to 
tell — Colonel North was supposed to tell Bunker that UNO 
leaders were going to be there, at the October 17th briefing, 
to encourage him to come. 

Q Were these notes for a phone conversation that 
Colonel North was to have with Bunker Hunt? 

A Yes . 

Q I see. So item two Is that he was to tell Bunker 
Hunt that there was a meeting Friday morning at the white 
House? 

A Right . 

Q Now would you read item four, and particular items 
"a" and "b" under four. 

A Well, four says "briefing" and item "a" is "Green 
used plane already for private things i, and "b" is "have been 



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using plane for two weeks[' 

Q Now what does that refer to? 

A Oliver North was supposed to say that he has been 
using a plane that was bought with Bunker's money for private 
deliveries, and we'd been using it for two weeks. 

Q Was this the^200 and some thousand that you 
referred to earlier? 

A Yes . 

Q What sort of plane had been purchased? 

A I forget the name of it. It's the big plane 
referred to earlier. 

Q Now was does "private things" refer to there? 

A I can't tell you. I don't know. Private shipments 
to the contras . 

Q Does that refer to military equipment? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q Private shipments of some sort? 

A Yes. Supplies and the like to contras. 

Q Supplies purchased with private funds? 

A I think so. 

Q Are these words your phrases, or is this — 



No. Spitz. 



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HUJii ■i xj u mu CO.. we. 

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(102) 1 



ONcussm 



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Q He gave you this langauge? 

A Yes. I'm taking dictation, practically. 

Q Did you discuss with Channell what was meant by the 
phrase "private things"? 

A No. 

Q Now on page seven of this outline, the entry 
relating to the "RR/ group grope" has a line drawn through it. 
What is the significance of that? 

A We couldn't get it. It was cancelled. 

Q Was there ever such a "group grope"? 

A Not with these people. The closest thing was the 

t 
Pent^costs . 

Q What was that? 

A Mr. and Mrs. Pentecost, and Mrs. Pentecost's 
sister, whose name I'm blanking on at the moment, went into 
see the President in 1986. 

Q Now if you would turn to the "to do" list dated 
October 16, 1985, and particularly page six, which is your 
document control page 26471. Under the heading "private 
meetings" there's again a line, "review agenda for private 
meetings with Greeny 



Right. 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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Q Does that have the same meaning as what you've 
described earlier? 

A Yes. It's Just carried over from previous "to do" 
lists . 

Q Now under that it has ""Wednesday, 2:00 to 4:00 
p.m. "^ There's, I gather, shown, a 3:00 o'clock meeting with 
Fred Sacher, and then there's an entry "bring — I take it 
that's "$6 million list updated"? 

A Yes . 

Q What does that refer to? 

A A list that I saw that Colonel North had on two 
yellow sheets of legal-size paper. 

Q Where did you see that list? 

A In Dallas, Texas. 

Q Was anyone else present when you saw it? 

A Bunker Hunt and Oliver North, and Spitz Channel 1 
and myself. 

Q Where did you see this? 

A In some club. 

Q Was the list shown to you? 

A No. I Just saw it from — you mean so I could read 



it? 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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Yes. 
No. 



Colonel North had possession of it? 
Yes. 

what did he say about it? 

Well, he went through the list. I mean, these were 
the needs of the contras . 

Q And the items on the list totalled $6 million? 
A I think, actually, this is a mistake. If I 
remember right, it totalledf7 million. 

Q What items were on the list, that you remember? 
A Guns, Red/Eye missiles, tanks, grenades. You know. 
War material . 

Q And this was on two sheets of yellow paper? 
A Yes. 

Q Was it in handwriting? 
A Yes . 

Q And did Colonel North show the list to Mr. Hunt to 
? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. Hunt hold the list? 
A He might have. I don't recall, exactly. 



read? 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



Q Did Colonel North leave the list with Mr. Hunt? 

A No. 

Q Took it back? 

A Yes. 

Q And that was a meeting in Dallas in September of 



1985? 



Yes. 



Do you know the approximately date? 
The 10th, maybe. 

And was Mr. Hunt asked for a contribution to 
acquire the items on the list? 
A Yes. 

Q With Colonel North present? 
A No. 

Q Where did Colonel North go? 
A To look at the stars. 

Q And who made the request for a contribution? 
A Spitz. 
' Q Do you know if it was arranged in advance, that 
Colonel North would present the list, and then would leave 
while Mr. Channell solicited a contribution? 

A I told Colonel North to prepare the list. 



ONCLASSIFIED 



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HtuN Rvannaa CO, nc 
M7 C Una. N I. 
Wutmtm. O.C. 20001 



ONCUSSIFIED 



160 



Q Right . 

A He left on his own. That wasn't prearranged. 
MS. MORRISON: May I ask a question? 
MR. FRYMAN: Certainly. 

MS. MORRISON: Did you tell Colonel North what to 
put on the list? 

THE WITNESS: No. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q What did you tell Colonel North? 
A I said we wanted to raise the largest amount of 
money we had ever raised from anybody, ever requested from 
anybody, and we had determined that we wanted to raise $5 
million from Bunker, and that he should prepare a list of 
needs that added up to $5 million, and he should bring it 
with him. And if he should fail in this, it would be a big 
problem. He had to have a list of what the needs were, and I 
aald I dort't care what you put on the list, just so it totals 
$5 Billion, and we're going to ask him for the whole thing. 
Q Who came up with the $5 million figure? 
A Spitz. 

Q Do you know how he reached that figure? 
A Fun<^aising experience, otherwise known as picking 



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ONCUSSIFIEO 



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JOT C Jimi. N.E. 
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something £roin the sky. 

Q What did Mr. Hunt say in response to this solicita- 
tion by Mr. Channell on or around September 10th? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 



He said "I'll think about itfy 

Did Colonel North come back to the table? 

No. 

Did Colonel North — 

Well, I withdraw that a minute. He might have. I 

don't know. I wasn't there. 

Q All right. Do you know if Colonel North — 

A I don't think he did, but he might have. 

Q Do you know if Colonel North had further discussion 

that day with Mr. Hunt, after Mr. Channell made the appeal 

for funds? 

A Oh, pleasantries. 

Q Pleasantries. What contribution did Mr. Hunt make 

aft«r this appeal for^S million plus dollars? 

A Well, he wasn't asked forfs million. 

A 
Q What was he asked for, seven? 

A No. He was asked for a plane, I think. An 

airplane. 

Q Was that one of the items on the list? 



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MUJN I WHJ W H I II CO.. MC 
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Minssm 



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A Yes. Maybe two airplanes. I've forgotten, 
exactly. Oh, I know. It's $237,500 for each check, and what 
is that? $475,000. He made a mistake. I think he was asked 
for, if I remember correctly, $450,000. He gave — or is my 
mathematics off here? Yeah. And he gave 475. 

Q But half of that was as a loan? 

A Yes. 

MS. MORRISON: So that the record is clear, I hope 
you heard the witness say he wasn't there during parts of 
this period of time. 

MR. FRYMAN! Yes. I want to come back to that. 
But I'm confused about the amounts. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q You told Colonel North that he would have to come 
up with a list totalling at least $5 million — 

A Right . 

Q —because you had made the decision to ask for that 
aaount — 

A Yes. 

Q — from Mr. Hunt? 

A Yes. 

Q But after the presentation of the list, you did not 



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ask for the full $5 million?. 

A That's my understanding. 

Q You were not present at that point? 

A That's correct. 

Q Where were you? 

A Gazing at the stars with Colonel North. 

Q Was this worked out in advance with Mr. Channell, 
that — 

A No. He did it at the last minute, and surprised 
everyone.. 

Q Did what? 

A Asked me to leave the room. 

Q So there were the four of you at the table? 

A Tea. 

Q You, Mr. Channell, Mr. Hunt, and Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q And at some point he asked both you and Colonel 

North to leave? 

A No. 

Q Tell me what happened, then. 

A Colonel North excused himself, first, and he left, 

and then we talked for a minute or two, and then Spitz asked 



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me to leave. 

Q And how long were you away? I 

A The time that they were together--you know-- I 

whatever that was . 

Q Did Mr. Channell come out at some point and ask you 

] 
to come back to the table? I 

A No. 

Q How did you know when to go back? 

A We didn ' t . They came out . 

Q I see. I see. So you were out gazing at the stars 
with Colonel North? 

A Right. 

Q When Colonel North left, did he really say he was 
going to go look at the stars, or — 

A No, no. It's on the top £loor of a huge building, 
and they had just illuminated the night previously, a 
building in fluorescent — no, what is it called? — neon lights 
all around the building, and they'd just inaugurated it, and 
so we were viewing the skyline of Dallas. And it was a 
beautiful night and we were just chatting; nothing important. 

Q Was there some prearrangement for Colonel North to 
leave the group at a certain point in the dinner? 



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A No. He did it all himself. 

Q What did Mr. Channell later tell you occurred 
between Mr. Hunt and him when they were alone at the dinner 
table? 

A He said he asked him — I believe he said Bunker asked 
him a question or two. I can't remember what the questions 
were. And then he requested from Bunker to fund, I think one 
or two airplanes that were on the list. 

i 
Q Well, did he explain why he had not asked for the*5 

\ 

million contribution that you had expected to ask, in advance 
of the dinner? 

A No. He did not. 

Q Did you ask him? 

A Well, he got "cold feet(A,/ and to rub his nose in 
that would not have been the politicf' thing to do, so I 
didn't ask. 

Q To rub Channell 's nose? 

A Right. It was the largest contribution we had 
received to that date, and he was happy about that, and I was 
depressed at how much we didn't get. 

Q Now returning to the October 16 outline, the 
reference to "bring the $6 million list updated" was a 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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reference to bringing essentially that same list to the 
meeting with Mr. Sacher, is that right? 

A Right . 

Q Had you and Mr. Channel 1 reached en agreement as to 
how much you were going to ask from Mr. Sacher as a contribu- 
tion? 

A I don't recall that we did. I think he was an 
unknown quantity to us, as to how much money he had. He's 
low profile. 

So your intention was to have Colonel North review 
essentially the same^'nt with Mr. Sacher that had been | 
reviewed with Mr. Hur^ I 

A Tes. 

Q And that was a list primarily composed of military 
equipment? 

A Tea. 

Q Do you know if Colonel North did that? 

A I don't know. 

Q Do you know if the meeting occurred with Mr. Sacher? 

A Z think so. 

Q Was there a request for a contribution after the 



meeting? 



«NCUS«D 



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A Probably. 

Q Do you know? 

A I can't recall. 

Q Do you know if the list similar to the one reviewed 
with Mr. Hunt was reviewed with any of the other individuals 
referred to on pages six and seven of this October 16 outline? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q Turning, Mr. Conrad, to the "to-do" list for 
October 16, 1985, and particularly the copy that has handwrit- 
ten notes on it, which begins with your identification page 
26466. Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q If you will look at page seven of that copy, there 
are references there to a Friday meeting with Bunker Hunt, 
and then under that, "have Green call[;V and then there's a 
line dra%m through those entries. What is the significance 
of that? 

A I believe he didn't come to the briefing at all, 
let alone the private meeting. He didn't come to Washington. 

Q So you believe that that did not occur, a meeting 



at that point? 



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Q Turning to the outline dated October 19, 1985, on 
the first page, which is the identification page 20208, there 
are a variety of handwritten notes on that page. Are those 
your handwritten notes? 

A Yes. 

Q Out on the left there's the note "Where is Rich's 
guarantee for Bunkei(\^ What does that mean? 

A We discussed the problem of half of the amount of 
money, the $237,500 that we got from Bunker being a loan, and 
we discussed this with Bich Miller, and he said he might have 
a way to get that loan guaranteed if we were to sign a note. 
And that was a note to me to follow up, to find out whether 
in fact he had gotten the guarantee. 

Q Did he obtain such a guarantee? 

A NO. 

Q Now If you trould turn to the next "to-^do" list 
which is dated October 26, 1985, and particularly page five. 
Un<tor the heading Roman 'H\ "Rich and FranJc\j there's a 
reference to an "RR meeting with Barbara Newington" on 
November 7, and under that, small "i-f\j "what to requestA^ and 
two small "i'sA, "when to reques^,/ and three small 'i'a(\j 



'how to structure the visj 



What do those entries mean? 



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A Well, we wanted to have a private meeting with the 
President for Barbara Newingtan, and we wanted to know — this 
is a note asking ourselves, really, how we should structure 
the visit, logistically, and at what times we should request- 
-these were questions we had to answer before she came. 

Q All right. 

A How much we wanted to request it and at what point 
should we request it, before the meeting with the President, 
or after. 

Q Was a meeting between Mrs. Newington and the 
President held on November 7? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Was there a meeting held sometime during the fall 
of 1985? 

A I can't tell you. I don't know. 

Q Do you recall Barbara Newington coming to Washington 
in the fall of 1985? 

A All I know, she came to Washington but I don't 
remember when. 

Q Do you recall a meeting with her at the Hay-,Adams 
Hotel where Colonel North appeared? / 



No. 



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Q Tou did not participate in any such meeting? 

A No. 

Q Going back to the entries on this "to-do" list< do 
you recall what decision was made with respect to what to 
request and when to request it? 

A I don't remember the specifics. I know the 
questions were answered, but I don't remember what the 
answers were. 

Q All right. 

A At the time I'm sure Z did, but not now. 

Q Turning to item ten in that outline, 'Future 
projects^, there's an entry 'Green* and under that 'brochure 
on multi^band frequency radios!*^ What does that entry refer 
to? 

A Colonel North said that there was a necessity for a 
new type of sophisticated radio system to be used by the 
freedom fighters in the field, and he called it a multij-band 
frequency radio. 

Q Is this a subject that he initiated with you? 

A He initiated it with the whole group. 

Q What was the whole group? 

A The briefing. He talked about it in the briefing. 



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It's conununications equipment. 

Q And was it your intention to raise funds to 
purchase such radios? 

A Yes. 

Q And he was to provide a brochure with respect to 
the radios? 

A No. We asked him if he could, or would. 

Q Did he? 

A No . 

Q Did you obtain such a brochure from any other 
source? 

A No. . 

Q Did you raise funds for radios? 

A I think so. 

Q Do you recall if those funds were raised from any 
particular person? 

A I don't remember the specifics. 

Q Now the next item is, again, an entry, "follow up 
with Green on World Hide Fund RaisingTW We've discussed 
this, or a sinilar entry with regard to a prior "to-do" list. 

A It's the same entry. 

Q Same entry. And it has the same significance in 



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this? 



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A Yes. 

Q Turning to page ten of this outline, there's a 
reference to a "January, 1986 Project" "to support three 
Senate racest'u and there's a further description that one 
race will be a 'shoe-in^ one a "probable losern,, and then 
there's a reference to "three who are uncertainj\^ What do 
those lines in your "to-do" list refer to? 

A We wanted to act as a Federal political action 
committee, and we wanted to give candidates political 
contributions, and we were talking about the general parame- 
ters for selecting potential people for that contribution, 
maybe even independent expenditures. I'm not quite sure. 

Q Why would you select one who's a "probably loser"? 
MS. MORRISON: Maybe he likes a challenge. 
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know. I am not a 
political person. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q What's the source of these entries in your "to do" 
list? 

A Spitz. 

Q Is this something Mr. Channell gave you? 



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Yes. 



Was this project activated? 

No. 

Why not? 



A Well, it's another one of those 8 million projects 
that never got tended to. There was no special reason. 

Q Turning to the outline for November 3, 1985, 
there's a portion of that outline in this exhibit, and again, 
there's the entry, at least of which a similar entry appeared 
in an earlier outline, to 'have a private project to get 
hostages out of Beiru^y and that's an entry under the 
heading "Greenm Is there any continued significance to the 
fact that this entry continues to appear in the outline in 
November of 1985? 

A No particular significance. 

Q It's Just carried forward from outline to outline? 

A Yes. It may mean that I need to debrief with Spitz 
about the results of my meeting with Colonel North, and I 
haven't had a chance to do that. 

Q Now the next item is "coordinate Green trips with 
requests for presentations to clubsH./ What does that mean? 

A Colonel North was often asked to make presentations 



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to different clubs around the Un|^ed States, different clubs 
and organizations' meetings, and if he would let us know--the 
thought was if he would let us know when he had to go out of 
town to give these speeches in different places, we could 
coordinate a fundpraising trip, fund^aising visits, arrange 
private briefings for individuals who couldn't come to 
Washington. 

Q Was that undertaken? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Same problem. 

Q Just didn't get around to it? 

A Right . 

Q Now in your outline for November 7, 1985, it refers 
to a November 14 Washington meeting. Was there such a 
meeting? 

A I think so. 1 mean, there was a meeting in 
November. I don't remember the date. 

^ Q On the second page it refers to "special invited 
guests" including George Bush. Did Vice President Bush 
attend a white House briefing for NEPL? 



No. 



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Q Why does his name appear here? 

A I don't know how to answer that question. Because 
he's the vice President. 

Q Well, had you reason to believe that he would 
appear? 

A Well, we hoped he would. It was a request. 

Q Anything more than that? 

A No. 

Q And he did not? 

A Right . 

Q Did he appear at any of your briefings? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the November 16 outline on page seven. 
"November Objectives" for Rich and Frank include "RR meetings' 
with Bunker Hunt, Fred Sacher, Ellen Garwood, and David and 
Paula Warm. Were they selected for such meetings because 
th«y'd made substantial contributions? 

A Again, as I had mentioned before, either because 
they had, or had potential to for the future. 

Q Well, in this instance, do you know if it was 
because they had? 

A Well, Bunker had. Fred had — I mean, it depends on 



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what you mean by, you know, "significant contributionn. You 
said before $300,000, and Bunker had given that much by this 
time, and I don't think any of the other people had. 

Q Did these meetings occur? Or did meetings with 
President Reagan occur with these individuals? 

A I think in 1986. 
[Pause. ] 
BY MR. FRYMAN; 

Q Exhibit 2, the first outline, or the first "to, do" 
list is dated January 15, 1986. Now there was a large White 
House briefing for potential contributors on January 30, 
1986, was there not? 

A Yes . 

Q We've gone through, Mr. Conrad, in your earlier "to. 
do" lists, a lot of very detailed entries with regard to 
prior white House meetings in 1985. I do not see any similar 
detailed entries here with regard to the January 30, 1986 
meeting, and my question is why are they not here? 

A Because I didn't make them. 

Q Well, why? 

A By that time it was down to a system. The October 
17th one was the first major one that we did. Actually, it 



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was the second one, but, you know, we reached the perfection 
of what we wanted. It was only a question of fine-tuning it 
after that. 

Q Weil, was there a further reason, in January of 
1986 David Fischer became involved in working for NEPL, did 
he not? 

A Yes. I think, actually, he started in December. 

Q Well, around that time. 

A Whatever, yeah. 

Q And he had responsibility with respect to the 
January 30 White House meeting, did he not? 

A Yes. Actually, it was two people. David Fischer 
and Marty Artiano. 

Q Marty Artiano. Did their involvement in the 
meetings beginning in January, was that a contributing factor 
to the absence of detailed items in your "to, do" lists with 
respect to the white House meetings, beginning in January? 

A Well, I daresay you won't find very much there, in 
the way of notes regarding the briefing at the OEOB with 
Colonel North, on previous documents, either. In other 
words, the section of the meeting that they were concerned 
with, which was the presidential part, was under their 



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management, and that's fine. I didn't have anything to do 
with that, particularly. I just needed to make sure it hap- 
pened. And neither was I concerned with Colonel North's 
presentations in the October 17th briefing and in the June 
briefing, and in the November briefing. 

I mean, I would just put on there that he's to 
appear. 

Q So the basic reason that there's an absence of 
detailed entries with respect to the further briefings in 
these later "to-do" lists is because you had perfected a 
system and there was no longer a necessity for listing the 
detailed steps? 

A Well, if you look at the previous ones, you'll see 
that they relate to limousines, and flowers, and, you know, 
guards, and all that business, which, by this time we had a 
system set up. The first time we did it that way, we had to 
look into each one of those details. 

The second time, and the third time, and such, we 
had it down. We had regular computer printouts that we could 
just fill in, or, you know, I would just say to — I mean, I 
remember that the guards needed to be recalled, and I would 
just tell Angela to call the guards. I mean, everybody knew 



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what was coining down, and on October 17th, and Jane, we 
didn't know, it was new to us, to do it. 

Q All right. Turning to the February 22, 1986 
outline, and page two of that outline. I believe there's 
more than one copy of the outline in there-- 

A If you look on page one. Or yeah, !'■ sorry. The 
document number is what? 

Q 20804. I think it's the preceding copy. 
A Okay. At the top there's the entry, Rcaan '1V\' 
Marty Artiano, and under that "RR meetings', and again the 

Newington, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^B Garwood, then 
^^^^His added, in handwriting. 
A Yes . 

Q Now who was Marty Artiano? 

A Is an attorney, a former aide to Governor Reagan, 
and President Reagan. 

Q And what was his role in NEPL at this point? 
A To charge us lots of money. 
- Q For what? 
A Arranging meetings with the President. 
Q what did he charge you for that? 
A $50,000 a pop. 



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Q Is that what he told you? 

A Yup. 

Q When? 

A December '85. 

Q Where did he tell you that? 

A Rich Miller's office. 

Q Who was present? 

A I think Rich Miller, David Fischer, Spitz Channell, 
myself, and Marty. 

Q And the best you recall, what did Marty say? 

A He said it'd be no problem to arrange these. 

Q And what did he say about compensation for doing 
that, as best you recall his words? 

A Hell, I don't recall his words, but, I mean, just 
the substance of it was he was going to charge $50,000 a 
tine, and we sort of gulped and said okay. 

Q Did Fischer say anything? 

A No. He was pretty quiet through the whole thing. 

Q Did Miller say anything? 

A No. He just arranged the thing, the meeting. 

Q Was that the only occasion that he said to you that 
he could arrange meetings with President Reagan for $50,000 a 



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meeting? 

A Well, I don't know how to answer that question, but | 
on subsequent meetings we expressed concern about the large 
sum of money involved in the meetings, and Marty said he j 
thought it was very reasonable. 

Q And he made that remark in connection with a 
discussion about the sum o£ money being $50,000 for a meeting 
with the President? 

A Yes. 

Q Was there ever a meeting where Artiano, and others, 
told you that there was not a specific charge for arranging 
individual meetings with President Reagan? 

A Yes, I think subsequently. I think maybe after 
Marty — I'm not sure, exactly, the timing — but after Marty 
split off — David and Marty split apart — David expressed 
concerns about the way that that was all being handled. He 
felt very uncomfortable about that type of billing situation 
and he wanted to go on a retainer, a monthly retainer, and he 
would provide more than just meetings with the President. 

Q How long did the arrangement of $50,000 a meeting 
continue? 

A Well, at least — I don't know. Two to four months. 



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I'm not sure, exactly. I'd have to look back at the account- 
ing records because they--S50, 000 payments were made, and 
however many of them there were is how long it went. I just 
don ' t remember . 

Q How many meetings were there with the President 
under this arrangement? 

A That's what I'm not remembering. Somewhere between 
two and four. 

Q What individuals do you recall met with the 
President under this arrangement? 

MS. MORRISON: When you say "this arrangement \; you 
mean $50,000 per visit? 

MR. FRYMAN: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: I'd have to look at the records. I 
don't recall. 

MR. FRYMAN: All right, 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Now also under Marty Artiano, on this "to-do" list, 
is an item -D", "Rosb Perot, 3-10-86 meetin^-\j What does 
that refer to? 

A I don't really remember. I really don't. I think 
they were trying to arrange a meeting, but it never came out. 



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never came off. 

Q On this particular page that we're looking at, 
which is your control page 20804, there appears to be 
handwriting by more than one person on that page. 

A Yes. 

Q Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you identify the different handwritings? 

A Spitz Channell and myself. 

Q Which is Mr. Channell 's handwriting? 

A All the handwriting there except three words are 
mine. I'm sorry. Are Spitz's. 



Which are the three words that are yours? 

"Rewrite Nixon letter("\y 

Everything else is Channell 's? 

That's correct. 

Now item Roman "III" refers to the Central American 



Freedom Program, and I believe you've indicated earlier, that 
that's what the fublic Z^iploraacy Program evolved into, is 
that correct? 
A Yes . 

Q Now there's a reference there to "task force 



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members" and a listing of various individuals. What does the 
"task force" mean? 

A Well, these are all people who are involved in the 
Central American Freedom Program. It's actually not all of 
them; just some of them. 

Q Who set up this task force? 

A Oh, Spitz, myself. Rich Miller. 

Q How did Bruce Cameron come to be on the task force? 

A I think he was referred to us. I can't remember by 
who. I think maybe Rich Miller. 

Q Does Edelman refer to a public relations firm? 

A Yes. 

Q And Steve Cook is the account executive — 

A No, he's the manager. 

Q — manager responsible for — 

A For the Washington office. 

Q And Alan Carrier and Debbie Messich, are they 
employees of Edelman? 

A Yes. At that tine, yes. 

Q And what was Artiano's role in the task force to 
be? 

A Well, it was not clear. He didn't participate. 



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Q Who's Edie Fraater? 

A She's a principal with Min)^r and Framer. 

Q And what was her role to be? 

A Talk people to death. Try to get people to start a 
grassJToots letterwriting campaign, by getting other organiza- 
tions in local areas to get volunteers to write letters to 
Congressmen. 

Q Whose idea was this? 

A Oh, Godt I'm not sure. Spitz's, Edie's, mine, 

actually, maybe. It's possible. 

Q Was Lichtenstein a pollster? 

A No. 

Q What was his role? 

A He did the same thing as Edie. 

Q And who was Brad O'Leary? 

A Well, I never met the man. I've talked to him on 
the phone a couple times. 

Q Where did you get his name? From Channel 1? 

A Yes . 

Q What was his role to be? 

A We wanted him to arrange a dinner. That was the 



thinking. 



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What was his expertise in that area, that you know 



of? 



A He sponsored, or arranged dinners for different 
conservative groups. I think he ran a special event dinner 
in New York for Jack Kemp that raised a million dollars. 

Q All right. Turning to page six of this outline, 
there's again the reference to the ACT Political Project. 
Now I take it that's the same project that was in the earlier 
outline that you say never was implemented? 

A Yes. Right. 

Q Now on page seven, under that general heading, 
there's a new entry to "ask Marty Artiano/David Fischer for 
target suggestionsn,, and then there's a handwritten note that 
"Terry is better informed,^. First of all, is the handwritten 
note by Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q Who is Terry? 

A Terry Dolan, president, former president of NCPAC. 

Q Okay. Now what is the general entry about Artiano 
and Fischer? What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to ask them to use whatever sources they 
had to help us identify potential target candidates, that we 



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would run ou^ political program. 

Q Were the target candidates candidates you would 
support, or ones you would oppose, when you refer to " target"? 

A It depends on which candidates we're talking about. 
I mean, we had different criteria that we were using to 
evaluate different candidates. One was a "shoe-inp\,; you 
recall, some were going to be losers, and some were going to 
be winners. So you would use different strategies in 
different cases. 

Q But in any case, all of your ads would be ads in 
support of a particular candidate? 
A Not necessarily. 

Q You would run negative ads against certain can- 
didates? 

A Yes. 

Q So a target could be both a target for support, or 
a target for opposition? 
A Yes. 

Q And you were to ask Artiano and Fischer for their 
suggestions in this regard? 

A Yes. It's not for their suggestions; it's for them 
to get suggestions. They didn't know anything. 



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Q Now on page ten of this same outline, I guess under 
the major heading Roman "dA/ "Administration\\/ which is on 
page eight--on page eight there's a capital "a(",/ "Fundraising 
Prospects^y And then under that, Arabic "2K,/ "Prospector/ 
and then those items under that, I take it continue over to 
page ten, and there's an item 19 which says "Green contact 
referralsny Do you see that? 

A Yes . 

Q And under that, there's an entry, "Roy Godsor^% G- 
o-d-s-o-n. Who is Roy Godson? 

A well, I don't know. He was a referral by Colonel 
North, but I never did know what he did. 

Q You never met him? 

A I never met him. 

Q Did you ever speak with him? 

A Never spoke with him. 

Q Now there's the next entry, "Causa/Rich knows 
PresldentA.y What does that refer to? 

- A Colonel North was recommending to us that we go ask 
Causa for money. 

Q What is Cauaa? 

A I don't know what it stands for. It's the Unifica- 




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tion Church in the United States. 

Q Did you ask them for money? 

No. Well, I'm sorry. I didn't. 
Do you know if anyone did? 

I believe — well, I don't think anybody — Causa? no. 
Did they contribute money? 
No. 

Now the next item, item "C" under "Green contact 
referrals" is Boone Pickens. 
A Right. 

Was there a solicitation of Boone Pickens? 
NO. 

Why not? 

Well, again, it's because we weren't — the way was 
not smoothed for us to do that. It was like a cold prospect. 
I think we tried to get through and weren't successful. 

Q Who was to smooth the way? Was it Colonel North? 
A No. I mean, we would have wanted him to, but I 
mean, he didn't volunteer to, or anything. He didn't say he 
was going to. 

Q Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought this entry 
indicates that he referred these contacts to you. 



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A Yes. Yes, he did. 

Q So he referred Boone Pickens to you? 

A Yes. But that doesn't mean he knew him. X mean, 
he might have known him. I don't know. 

Q It's just a name he mentioned? 

A Right. Why don't you try this; why don't you try 
that. That sort of thing. 

Q In any case, nothing was done with respect to 
seeking a contribution from Boone Pickens, so far as you know? 

A I believe we tried to contact him and weren't 
successful. 

MR. FRYMAN: I believe this is a good breaking 
point for the day. Why don't we go off the record. 

(Whereupon, at 5:21 p.m., the deposition was 
adjourned. ] 



UNCUSSIHED 



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artl91 



M^ C Sam. N E 
VafearDO. O C. 2000] 
llBl) 1 



UNCLASSIFIED 



191 



I have read the foregoing 190 pages, which contain 
a correct transcript of the answers made by me to the 
questions therein recorded. ^ '^ L^^;^Py0^h.<^;p^ d^ 




of 



Subscribed and worn to before me this 
, 1987. 



.day I 



Notary public in and for: 



My commission expires: 



WHWSSW 



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CLASSiHEB 




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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER 
I, Terry Barham, che officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my direction; that said deposition is a true record 
of che testimony given by said witness; that I am neither 
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties 
to the action in which this deposition was taken; and, 
further, that I am not a relative or employee of any at- 
torney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in che outcome of the 
action. 



-^Terry ZsaHan ^Jt6tavy public in and 
for the Dise^cc of Col'.uabia 



My commission expires May 15, 1989. 




Hi ?^.H9!t 



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pJ8^ ^. 1 cU^e;6i. ''(OA.Sied!" 



^^A^Ci^ "Uc^^ /<D,i?87\ 



INCUSSIFIED 



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SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Thursday, June 12, 1987" 
Washington, D.C. 
Continued deposition of DANIEL LYNN CONRAD, taken 
on behalf of the Select Committees above cited, pursuant to 
notice, commencing at 9:28 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart 
Senate Office Building, before Terry Barham, a notary public 
in and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 
For the House Select Committee: 



THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. 
Staff Counsel 

SPENCER OLIVER, Esq. 
Associate Counsel 




KEN BUCK, Esq. 

Assistant Minority Counsel 



Partiany Dedassified/Released on 



/-//-, 



under provisions of E.0. 12356 
2 5 f. r^ ? :• .'^, *^* N-Mewgw National Security Council 



386 



irtl94 






For the Senate Select Committee: 

THOMAS McGOUGH, Esq. 
Associate Counsel 

For the deponent: 

ALEXIA MORRISON, Esq. 

ELAINE LUBIN, Esq. 

Swidler & Berlin 

1000 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W, 

Washington, D.C. 20007 

CONTENTS 
Examination by counsel for 



House Select Committee (Mr. Fryman) 

EXHIBITS 
Conrad Exhibits 
9 



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Marked 



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PROCEEDI_NGS 
Whereupon, 

DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 
resumed as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was 
examined and testified as follows; 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE (resumed) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, if you would look again at Deposition 
Exhibit 2 for identification, and if you would turn to the 
outline in that volume dated March 8, 1986. Roman II on that 
outline is headed "Bruce Cameron/Penn Kemble, " and under that, 
there are three specific items, "ad in Washington Post" is the 
first. The second is "Congressional Public Debate," and the 
third is "Doctors for Press Conference." 
What do those entries refer to? 
A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, the "ad in the Washington Post" refers to an 
ad which Penn Kemble 's organization -- I'm forgetting the 
naaM of it for the moment — 

Q Would that be "PRODEMCA"? 

A Yes. Thank you. — which PRODEMCA sponsored, ran 






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in the Washington Post. 

Q Well, let me back up, let me back up a minute. Who I 

! 

is Penn Kemble? i 

i 

A He is the Executive Director of PRODEMCA. j 

i 
Q Does he also have a position with an organization | 

called Center for Democracy in the Americas? 

A I am not sure exactly. He is connected with a lot I 
of things, but I do not know all -- what the names are. j 

Q You know him as being associated with PRODEMCA, i 

primarily? 1 

i 
A Yes . ! 

Q Who is Bruce Cameron? 

A He is with another organization, also which I do not 
remember at the minute. He is a lobbyist. 

Q Now, how did Bruce Cameron and Penn Kemble happen to 
be included in your "To-Do List"? 

A As I recall, Rich Miller introduced them to us. 

Q For what purpose? 

A To get them involved in our Central American Freedom 
Program. 

Q 
A 



What was their role to be? 
Well, Bruce '3 role, I do 



5!:^ 



lo no^ 



,know what it was to be 



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in the beginning, but what it ended up — I mean I do not 
remember what it was supposed to be in the beginning, but 
Bruce Cameron was doing lobbying for us and I am -- Penn 
Kemble was an authority on the area. I have forgotten 
exactly what his role was supposed to be -- he did not do 
very much; just ran the ad and talked to us about the problem 
in Nicaragua. 

Q And Cameron did lobbying for you in connection with 
the votes on Nicaragua aid in the Congress in 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q You say Kemble did not do very much? 

A I'm not remembering all the things he did. All I 
remember is the — I remember several luncheons with him, and 
I remember the ad, but I do not even remember the other two 
entries on there. 

Q It is your recollection that Rich Miller introduced 
Canraron and Kemble to the NEPL organization? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know if Oliver North was involved in 
introducing Cameron and Kemble to NEPL? 

A I haven't any idea. Not to my knowledge. 

Q All right . Now, the jaiyi the Washington Post, what 



right . „ Now, t^ ,AS^,iA Lh' 

y'i-^ '.-,■■■■ ■ ■'.,■■'' 3 



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was the subject matter of that ad? 

A Democrats who support the President's policy in 
Nicaragua. 

Q Who sponsored the ad? 

A PRODEMCA. 

Q What is the reason that there is an entry in your 
To-Do List with respect to that ad? 

A We talked to them about it, you know. I don't knov 
how to answer the question. 

Q Did you pay for it? 

A We made a grant to them, to PRODEMCA. 

Q For the ad? 

A Well, it was not specifically for the ad. 

Q What was the purpose of the grant? 

A I think they made — I am very — not specific on 
this . I have to look at my documents , my other documents 
besides this. As 1 recall, they made a proposal to us, a 
written proposal, and requested a grant. I cannot remember 
the -- they made several proposals to us, and I do not 
remember which one in particular we made the grant in 
response to. 

Q You considered Kemble a knowledgeable source of 






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iClilSSIflED 






information about Central America? 
A Yes . 
Q Did you view Kemble as having a role in the lobbying 



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effort? 
A 

Q 

A 
Q 



Well, not really. I mean maybe a little bit. 
Cameron was the person -- 

Cameron was the main person. i 

All right. What is the entry here, the purpose for 

the entry there, "Congressional Public Debate'? I 

I 
A I have no recollection. : 

Q And the third entry, "Doctors for Press Conference"? i 

A Well, Penn was going to get some doctors for a press 

conference, but I cannot remember the purpose of the press j 

I 
conference, and who the doctors were, for that matter. I mean i 

where they — I just do not remember. I'm sorry. j 

Q If you would turn to the next page in that outline, 

Mr. Conrad, there is a heading, "Roman IV. Central American 

Freedom Program," and under that, there is a description, or 

there is an entry for "Task Force Members," and then there 

are a number of names who are apparently included in the task 

force . 

Who established this task force? ' - 



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A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, that is a good question. I do not know how to 
answer that question. 

Q What did you mean by "task force"? 

A Well, it was my term. As far as I know, no one else 
used it. It is people who attended a weekly meeting at Rich 
Miller's, at IBC, to coordinate the Central American Freedom 
Program. 

Q Now, Cameron is on the Task Force; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And Kemble is on the Task Force; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And they were introduced, I believe you have 
testified, to your organization by Miller? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, the first entry on the Task Force is Edelman 
and after that, the name of Steve Cook. 

A Yes. 

Q What is "Edelman"? 

A It is a public relations firm. 

Q Was Steve Cook the local manager of that firm? 

A Yes. 






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And was he responsible for that f inn's work with 



you? 



M7 C Simt. N E 



A Yes . ' 

I 
Q What was that firm's responsibility with your 

organization, in connection with the Central American Freedom 

Program? 

A Well, I would have to go back and review my records i 

I 
to be able to tell you precisely, because I do not — I mean | 

. I 
they're a public relations firm. ' 

i 
Q That is understood; but in general, were they doing ! 

public relations type work for you in connection with the 

Central American Freedom Program? 

A Yes. 

Q Was that firm introduced to your organization by 
Miller? 

A No. 

Q How did you establish contact with them? 

A I think we had maybe a dozen public relations firms 
that we talked with to — they came to the office and we made 
a presentation to them, saying what we wanted. They went 
away and made a presentation — developed a presentation to 
make to us on how they fulfill on it. We selected Edelman on 



li?!iSS!F!EB 



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the basis of a competition, if you will, between these 12 -- 
or I do not know if i have the number correct, but several 
public relations firms. 

Q Who is "we" who made the selection? 

A Rich Miller, Spitz Channell and myself. 

Q Had you had any prior association with the Edelman 



firm? 



No. 



Do you know if Mr. Channell had? 

NO. 

Now, returning to the list of Task jrce members, 
Marty Artiano was also included there, and I believe you have 
previously testified that Mr. Miller introduced him to your 
organization. 

A Yes. 

Q The next name is Edie Fraser, and I believe her 
name has come up previously. She had been involved in the 
Nicaraguan Refugee Fund dinner? 

A Tea. 

Q She was an owner of the firm Miner and Fraser? 

A Yes. 

Q What was her role to be in this Task Force? 






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yiUSSlFlED 



203 



A Grass roots, letter writing, organizing the grass 
roots letter writing. 

Q Who selected her to be a member of the Task Force? 

A I do not recall. 

Q You had worked with her on the Refugee Fund dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q Had you been satisfied with her work? 

A She had her strengths, certainly. 

Q Well, that was not my question. Had you been 
satisfied with her work? 



her work . 

Q 
A 

Q 
dinner? 
A 
Q 



I do not know how to answer that question. 

You could try yes or no. 

MS. MORRISON: Maybe it's not that easy. 

THE WITNESS: I was satisfied with some aspects of 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

And dissatisfied with other aspects? 

Yes. 

What was Mr. Channell's view of her work on that 

You will have to ask him. 
Are you aware of his view? 






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A I'm not sure I am. 

Q Did he ever say anything to you about her work? 

A The way you are putting the question, it is very 
hard for me to answer. 

Q Let me, then, ask another question and put this 
question directly. Who decided to bring her into this Task 
Force? 

MS. MORRISON: He said he did not recall. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q I will ask it again. 

A Well, I am not sure. I will phrase it that way? 

Q Did Miller? 

A I really do not remember. 

Q All right. Who is Jack Lichtenstein? 

A He is — gosh, what is he? I guess he is a 
consultant. 

Q With respect to what? 

A Well, he does a variety of things. I am not even 
sure I know them all. We retained him to do grass roots 
letter writing organizing. 

Q Why was he selected? 

A At the recommendation of Rich Miller. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q So the members of the Task Force that you have 
listed here, Cameron, Kemble, Artiano and Lichtenstein, were 
selected at the suggestion of Miller? 

A Say that again -- I am sorry. 

Q Cameron, Kemble, Artiano and Lichtenstein were 
selected at the suggestion of Miller? 

A Well, they were introduced to us — 

Q Oh, they were introduced by Miller? 

A Yes. 

Q Fraser — you had previously known Eraser, and you 
do not know why she was selected to be a member of the Task 
Force? 

A I cannot recall. 

Q And Edelman was selected as a result of a compe- 
tition among various firms and bid proposals? 

A Right. That is correct. 

Q Now, the names under Edelman, Carrier, Messick — 
are they employees of the Edelman firm? 

A Yes. 

Q What is the reference to "weekly video summary"? 

A One of the things that they did, as a public 
relations firm, was to make a summary of -- on video tape, of 



llASSIflEB 



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all the — I think this is right — of all the videos, video 
plays . 

We were sending up B-roll footage on a satellite, 
and they were doing it from the New York office, and they 
were summarizing all the places that it got placed, all the 
— what do you call it — TV stations where it was played, and 
the times and everything. 

Q You used the phrase "B-roll footage." What is that? 

A Well, it is a technical PR term. I do not know what 
it stands for, but it means we would send — how do I explain 
this -- it is like a video news release. A normal news 
release is written on paper, and you send it out. A video 
news release would be someone speaking, or action shots, or 
whatever. It would be sent up by satellite, and anybody who 
has a dish to receive it, TV station, can record it, and then 
they can use it in their news . 

Q And then the Edelman firm would give you a weekly 
sunnary of the local plays of this material? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the March 15 outline, and if you would 
turn to item Roman XIII, which begins on Page 9, it is headed 
"Fund Raising Prospects." Under that there is an entry, 



NCUSSIREO 



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capital letter B. General Prospects," and Number 101 is the 



What is the reason for the inclusion of that person 
on this list? 

A I thought he might be a good prospect. 

Q How did you know of him? 

A Edie Fraser had mentioned him at the Nicaraguan 
Refugee Fund dinner as a prospect. 

Q What did she say about him? 

A She said she thought -- I think the first time I 
heard her comment on him, that she thought he might give a 
large sum of money — I have forgot how much, $50,000 or 
3100,000 — I also remember a million dollars floating around 
as a number -- but that he would be a good prospect for a 
large contribution. 

Q Did she indicate her source of knowledge about ^^H 



A No. 

Q All she said is that he was a potential source for 
a large contribution? 

A I think she phrased it that she could get a large 



contribution from him. 






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Q And that comment by her to you had occurred about 
the time of the Refugee Fund dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q That had been in April of 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you first include 
your To-Do List? 

A I do not know. I would have to look in her and see. 

Q Well, this one is for March 15, 1986. Would you 
turn to the preceding one of March 8, and I guess 
appears on Page 9 of that one. 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

So you that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Vat 

least appears as early as January 15 of 1986. 

A Well, it could have been earlier. We could look in 
the earlier books, as well. It has been carried over for a 
long time. 

Q Do you recall if you included! 
in your list? Let me rephrase that question. 

When you started making these lists, am I correct 
that you recalled that she had mentioned 
as a possible source? 






401 



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A Yes . 

Q And that is what prompted you to include his name 

on the list? 

A Yes . 

Q Now, had you been aware, or were you ever aware, 



6 until it appeared in press reports, that individuals in the 



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Adjninistration had spoken to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 about a 
contribution? 

A No. 

Q Now, Entry 13, on Page 10 of the March 15 outline, 
is Boone Pickens and that, again, has the parenthetical 
reference "(Greene contract referral)." we spoke earlier 
about Boone Pickens, and I believe you testified that he was 
an individual that Colonel North had known of. 

A Yes. 

Q But you did not believe he had any sort of personal 
relationship with Pickens. 

A As far as I know. 

Q Did that remain true as of March 15, 1986, when you 
made this entry? 

A As far as I know. He's never -- I mean I never 
heard from him that he -- 






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Q Why did you call him a "Greene contact"? I just do I 

I 
not understand that phrase, 'Greene contract referral." I 

I 
A Oh. It means my -- I got it through a contact with I 

Greene . 

Q Colonel North? ] 

A Yes. In other words, it is not — I understand the 
dilemma here, but it does not mean that it is Greene's I 
contact. It means that I got it through. | 

Q All right. Now, item Roman XIV is "Administration," ' 
and under that you have, again. Number 19 on Page 12, which | 
says, "Roy Godson," and then again a parenthetical reference, 
"(Greene contract referral)." 

What is the reason for the appearance of Mr. 
Godson's name there? 

A Well, this entry is a carryover from previous 
entries . 

Q Right . 

A So maybe your question is, "How did it get there the 
first time?" but I think you asked me that before. 

Q Well, let me ask you again. I will try not to 
repeat things — 

A No, no. I am not quarreling with your right to ask 






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me multiple questions. I am merely wondering -- I mean the 
answer is not any different from before, because when it 
originally appeared on there was when he mentioned it to me. 

Q I am not clear yet on what Mr. Godson's role was t 
be with respect to the subject of administration. You enter ] 
his name under the general heading "Administration, " and then 
under that there is a subheading "ACT/NEPL Administration." ] 

A Well, the way we were handling this was not to call ' 

him directly. we had asked Rich Miller to contact Roy Godson | 

i 

to set up an appointment for us. And he did that, and it did [ 

I 

not happen. Roy didn't want to meet with us. So, actually, 
it should have been — it shouldn't have been under 
"Administration," it should have been under "Rich and Frank." 

Q I am still now clear, Mr. Conrad, — and maybe this 
is my fault, but I am still not clear why you wanted to meet 
with him. 

A Well, I do not know — to be frank, I cannot 
remember, I cannot remember the original reason that Colonel 
North told us to get in touch with him. I just do not 
remember. But it never happened. 

Q What did you understand Mr. Godson's position to be 
at this time? 






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A Actually, I don't know if I have ever known. 

Q Have you ever met him? 

A No. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Channell has ever met him? 

A I do not know if he has. 

Q He never indicated to you that he had, Mr. Channel!? 

A Well, not to my recollection. 

Q The number besides Mr. Godson's name, 
that what you understand to be his home number? 

A I guess. That is why I have it there. i 

Q If you would turn to the next outline, March 31, 
1986, and turn to Page 6, which begins with a Roman X, 
"Greene," and under that, the letter "B" again appears, "Roy 

■HB. Do I 



Godson, " and there is a different phone number, ^■■Hi 
you recall why the number changed? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Obviously, I did not correct my own records, because 
on page 15 of that same outline. Item 21, I carry the other 
phone number along with it. The phone number on page 7 was 
given to me by, I believe. Fawn Hall, and I did not correct it 
from before. I do not know where I got the phone number 



before. 






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Q Okay- What is the reason, then for the second 
entry for Mr. Godson on Page 7? 

A It came as a result of a meeting that I had with 
Colonel North. 

Q And that occurred between March 15 and March 31, 
1986? 

A Apparently. 

MR. McGOUGH: Let me just interject -- are you 
speaking of the "International Lawyer in Geneva" entry? 

MR. FRYMAN: Yes. The entry at the top of the 
page, "B. Roy Godson." 

MR. McGOUGH: Oh, X am sorry. When you said, "The 
second entry, " you mean the second entry of the name "Roy 
Godson." I wasn't sure what entry you were referring to. 
Obviously, Mr. Conrad knew; I just didn't. 

MR. FRYMAN: There is a second entry that he has 
referred to that is on Page 15, which is the carryover from 
the prior outline. 

MR. McGOUGH: Right. So when you said, "second 
entry, " what you meant was the entry of the name "Roy Godson" 
on Page 7? 

MR. FRYMAN: That is correct. 






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BY MR- FRYMAN: 

Q Now, this entry was a result of a meeting you had 
with Colonel North, you believe between March 15 and March 
31, 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he say about Roy Godson in that meeting? 

A Well, I do not recall. 

Q What was the reason you made this entry on Page 7 , 
under the heading "X. Greene"? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, 1 have a problem here, because I cannot -- I 
did not remember, at the time he told me, why I was writing it 
down. I went to Rich Miller subsequently and I said, "I do 
not know why Colonel North is referring these people to us." 
He said, "Don't worry about it. I will check in with him to 
find out about it." 

Q And what happened? 

A Nothing happened. 

Q Now, beside Mr. Godson's name, there Is some 

W 

handwriting in a box that appears to be "International layer 

in Geneva . " 

A Yes. 




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Q Is >..iat your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Colonel North -- this is in the context of worldwide 
fundraising and setting up an English foundation, British 
foundation, and I was interested in finding out how we could 
go about this. I said -- I was not sure we were going about 
it properly, because our attorneys did not know a lot about 
international foundations, and he said, "Well, when you get 
finished with setting it up, or the plan for setting it up, 
whatever, or if you do not have any luck in setting it up, I 
might refer you to an international lawyer in Geneva." 



Q Well, now who is "he"? 

A Colonel North. 

Q All right. Why is that entry by Mr. Godson's name? 

A I was just taking notes in that area. 

Q You do not believe that refers to Godson? 

A No. 

Q Turn to the April 5, 1986, outline, particularly 
Pages 8 and 9. At the bottom of Page 8, you have an entry, 
"See Roy Godson," and then a subentry under that, "1. Maybe 
Greene will refer us to an international lawyer in Geneva." 



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A (Witness peruses document.) 
Yes. 

Q Now, the fact that the reference to an international 
lawyer is a subentry to the name Roy Godson suggests, does it 
not, that the reference to an international lawyer has some 
relation to Mr. Godson? 

A It appears that way from the outline, but I do not 
recall any such relationship. 

Q You have no recollection of ever meeting Mr. Godson? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever spoken with him on the phone? 

A No. Well, wait a minute. Maybe I did speak with 
him on the phone one time. No, wait a minute -- I am getting 
him confused with Rob Owen, who I did speak with one time on 
the phone, and then I later met once. 

Q Were you aware that Mr. Godson had been involved in 
fundraising efforts for entities in Nicaragua? 

A I am sorry; say that again. 

Q Were you aware that Mr. Godson had been involved in 
fundraising efforts for entities in Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Q No one ever told you that? 






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Who did you say, again? Godson? 

Q Yes . 

A No. No. 

Q So returning to the March 31 outline, Page 7, the ; 
reference to international lawyer in Geneva" in your 
handwriting, you believe, is a note of a conversation you had I 
with Colonel North? _ j 

A Yes. I 

Q Now, is there any significance to the fact that you ! 
drew a box around that entry? \ 

A No . i 

Q You have boxes around some entries, and others you | 
do not have boxes around. 

A My idiosyncrasies. 

Q There appears to be a line, to the left-hand side 
of the box, surrounding "international lawyer in Geneva"? 

A Yea. 

Q Is there any significance to that? 

A (No response. ) 

Q The line appears to be drawn toward the entry "Roy 
Godson," appears to me to be. Does that also appear to you 



INCUSSIFIED 



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to be the case? 

A Well, it is just the way I take notes. I mean I do 
not know how to put that, else. 

Q Looking at that box and that line, does that 
refresh your recollection that that entry relates to Roy 
Godson in some way? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, it may relate to it, but I do not recall what - 
the relationship is if, indeed, there is one. 

Q Why did you ask, or why did you discuss with 
Colonel North the subject of a European lawyer? 

A I do not think I did. 

Q Well, I think you said that these are notes of a 
conversation that you had with Colonel North, and he mentioned 
an international lawyer in Geneva. 

A Yes, but I did not. I did not ask him. 

Q How did the subject come up? 

A Oh, as I said before, in the context of us wanting 
to — we had a — what do you call it — a plan, thought -- 
something that was never acted on — to set up a foundation 
outside of this country. 

Q Well, in this conversation with Colonel North, did 



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he raise, on his own, the subject of an international lawyer ' 
in Geneva, or is it a subject that you brought up in the 
conversation? j 

A He raised it. 

Q Do you know what prompted him to raise the subject? 

A I have no idea . 

Q Had he been aware of your plans for the worldwide I 

fundraising? i 

" I 
A That was -- the subject matter that I was discussing j 

with him was our plan, and I wanted to get — what do you | 

call it -- his opinion about how -- were we doing this 

correctly, and I did not know, and I was not sure who our 

advisers were. 

Q What did you think — why did you think Colonel 
North would have any greater expertise in international 
fundraising than you would have? 

A Well, I did not. 

Q Then why were you raising the subject with him? 

A Because I thought he had expertise ^n things 
international, which we did not. 

Q Why did you think he had expertise in things 
international? 




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A Because he was flying around the country -- flying 
around the world all the time. 



Did he recommend a lawyer in Geneva? 

No. 

Ever? 

No. 

(Interruption to proceedings.) 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Did he ever mention Mr. Zucker to you? 

I have never heard the name. 

Also in this March 31, 1986, outline, Mr. Conrad, 
on Page 2 -- 

A On which outline? 

Q On the March 31/ 1986, outline, on Page 2, which is 
under the general heading of "Artiano and Fischer, " there is 
an entry for, first, an "RR letter," and then a "Greene 
letter of recommendation for Wesley Smith. " 

Who was Wesley Smith? 
A He was a researcher. 
Q He worked for NEPL? 

A I think — he did at one time; at this time, no. 
Q And this is a letter of recommendation for law 



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school? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you get such a letter from Colonel North? 

A No. 

Q Was a draft submitted for Colonel North's signature? 

A I am not sure if that ever was done. If so, I did 
not do it. 

Q The next entry there is "RR meetings, " under 
"Artiano and Fischer, " and the names of Garwood, Bunker Hunt, 
Patty Beck and May Dougherty King. Was that meeting^ with 
the President that you sought to have arranged? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you understand these meetings were to be under 
the financial arrangement you described that had been worked 
out with Mr. Artiano and Mr. Fischer? 

A I cannot recall at this date which monetary thing 
was in — which monetary arrangement was in force. I would 
have to look at my other records . 

Q One monetary arrangement was $50,000 a meeting? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the other one? 

A $20,000 a month retainer, and it just included all 






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kinds of activities. 

Q Including setting up meetings with the President? 

A Yes. 

Q Returning, on Page 6, to the entries with respect 
to Greene or Colonel North, the first entry is, "Get back- 
ground information packet on Saudi arms sale from Greene, ' 
and then there is a handwritten note, "Ollie, work with Jim 
to get unclassified package together." 

I take it, that is your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that entry refer to? 

A The typewritten or the handwritten? 

Q Well, do they both refer to the same thing? 

A Well, the "A" was a request by us to get some 
information on a proposed sale of arms to Saudi Arabia, and 
we had attending a briefing in the White House on that 
subject. 

Q What was your interest in that subject? 

A We were considering it for a possible program that 
we might do. 

Q What does the handwritten note refer to ? 

A My notes with Colonel North, a meeting with Colonel 



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North, and he said he would work with Jim, who I do not 
' remember at the minute who that is, to get a unclassified 
package of information together on the arms, so we could 
decide whether or not we wanted to do the program. 

Q All right. Now also under the section "Greene," 
there is an item "D, " which reads "Will recommend executive 
director for Western Goals." 

Were you asking Colonel North to recommend an 
executive director for Western Goals? 

A Yes. 

Q Why were you asking him? 

A We were thinking that we wanted to have a European 
person to be the executive director but be resident in the 
United States, and we thought he might know somebody. 

Q Did he recommend someone? 

A Nc- 

Q What is the handwritten note -- is it "Sven 
Kraemer, " S-v-E-N, K-R-A-E-M-E-R? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Well, he works at the National Security Council, 
and we wanted to discuss with him SDI . 






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Q That note is not related to the note concerning an 
executive director for Western Goals? 

A No. 

Q On that same page you have another handwritten note 
which reads, "0' Boyle: Douglas process for oil extraction 
from low producing wells." What does that entry refer to? 

A Colonel North said the next time I spoke with Bill 
O' Boyle X might mention to him that he knew someone -- he, 
Colonel North, knew someone who had a technique for getting 
oil out of low producing wells, called the "Douglas process, ' 
and if O'Boyle was interested, he would put him in touch with 
the guy. 

Q Did you speak to O'Boyle about that? 

A I did not — I asked — at that time I did not know 
what 0' Boyle's oil business was about. I mean I did not know 
what kinds of wells he had and what kind of extraction he was 
involved in, and this and that. And after — I did discuss 
with him the nature of his wells, and it turns out that he 
was not interested in this particular process. 

Q Did Colonel North indicate to you the source of his 
knowledge about this Douglas process? 

A No. 



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Q How did the subject com up in this meeting? 

A Out of the sky. I mean it was not preceded by 
anything nor was it followed by anything. It just arose. He 
brought it up. 

Q Now, Item E there reads, "Call Dick Stone (banker), 
contributor prospect." Who is Dick Stone? 

A I guess he is a banker. 

Q Do you know? 

A I haven't any idea. 

Q Where did you get the name? 

A From Ollie North. 

Q Do you know if Dick Stone had been, at one time, a 
member of the U.S. Senate? 

A I haven't any idea. 

Q Was this a name that Colonel North was giving to 
you for you or someone in your organization to call? 

A Yes. 

Q What is the note under that, refer to, which reads, 
"Have Fawn call him first," and then, "Have Ollie. " 

A It means, "Have Fawn have Ollie call him first. " 

Q What was the purpose of that call to be? 

A So that he would take — so that Dick Stone would 



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take the call from us. 

i 
Q But you had no idea who he was, other than he was a i 

banker? I 

i 

A That is right. i 

Q Under that is Item F, "Calls to make," and there is ' 
a list of several individuals. Are these calls that Colonel i 
North was suggesting that you make, or someone in your 
organization? - ■ 

A No. i 

Q What does that entry indicate then? j 

A It is calls that he is supposed to make. Colonel 
North is supposed to make those calls. 

Q Well, as I understand a number of these items under 
this general entry, Mr. Conrad, these are things that Colonel 
North is telling you to do; such as Item E, you are to call 
Dick Stone. 

I am not quite clear of the organization of this 
iten. Is this a combination of things Colonel North is to 
do, that you are asking him to do, and a combination of 
things that he is asking you to do? 
A It is a combination. 
Q Item G is a "Trip to Dallas and Corpus Christi. ' 



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Did that trip occur? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A I have no idea . 

Q Going back to F, you were suggesting then that 
Greene call Garwood, Ramsey and David and Paula Warm? 

A Yes . 

I 

Q What was the reason for those calls? : 

A Part of a thank-you process. i 

Q Then out to the left, there is a further handwritten | 

j 
note, "Calls," and that has "Ramsey, Garwood, Bunker and i 

Giddens, " and then Bill O'Neil's name in a box. What is the j 

reason for those notes? | 

i 
A Well, as X recall, they were phone calls for Ollie 

to make, and he indicated that he had already talked to 

Ramsey. 

Q Is that the significance of the check mark? 

A Yes. 

Q Over on the right-hand aide of that page, there is 
a name — is that ""Sasakawa"? 

A Yes. 

Q what does that mean? 



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A He is the wealthiest man in Japan. 

Q Did Colonel North mention his name to you? 

A No. 

Q Why is that entry there then? 

A I wanted him to -- we wanted to go solicit Mr. 
Sasakawa in Japan, and we wanted to bring Sasakawa to meet 
with the President. And we wanted to check before we went 
into that whole process whether there were any problems with 
Sasakawa because we did not know him, so we asked Ollie and 
he said he would check on it. 

Q What happened? 

A I later found out that Sasakawa had -- I think they 
put it "Mafia connections" in Japan and, therefore, he could 
not meet the President, so we did not go to Japan. 

Q You learned that from Colonel North? 

A I think Fawn Hall told me. 

Q Now, under the name Sasakawa, there is some 
additional writing, which I believe is in your handwriting; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Would you read that for the record? 

A It says, "Congressman from middle Texas re 



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contributor prospect." 

Q What is in the next entry? 

A "Secretary of State referral re Abrams . " 

Q What does the first entry with regard to the 
Congressman from middle Texas refer to? 

A Colonel North said that there was a Congressman 
from middle Texas, whose name he could not remember, who had 
a contributor prospect who we should solicit, and I should 
remind him so that he could follow up on it and get the name. 

Q Did you? 

A Yes, but I never got the name. 

Q That was the end of that matter? 

A Yes. 

Q What does the next item refer to, "Secretary of 
State referral re Abrams"? 

A Colonel North said that the Secretary of State had 
been at a meeting -- function, I don't know, something, -- 
and a contributor prospect had come up — a person had come 
up to the Secretary of State and said, "I am interested in 
giving money to the Freedom Fighters in Nicaragua," and he 
was referred to Elliott Abrams. And Colonel North said that 
he had told someone — I do not know who — to call us and 



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give us the name of the person so that we could follow up on 
■ it. 

Q So the potential contributor had spoken to the 
Secretary of State? 

A That is what I was told. 

Q The Secretary of State had spoken to Mr. Abrams? 

A Yes. 

Q Mr. Abrams had spoken to Colonel North? 

A Well, that is unclear. That is fuzzy in my head. 

Q But in some way or other, there was a communication 
between Mr. Abrams' office and Colonel North's office? 

A Yes. 

Q Then Colonel North raised the matter with you? 

A Well, just to tell me — just to notify me that 
when I got a strange phone call from somebody, saying that 
they had been referred by, I guess, the State Department or 
whatever, that we would know what it was about. 

Q All right. Did you ever speak with Mr. Abrams 
about such a contributor? 

A No. 

Q I take it, you never spoke with Secretary Schultz 
about such a contributor? 









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No. 



Q We will come back to that item later on. 

On the preceding page of that outline, on Page 6, 
Mr. Conrad, there is an entry with regard to the heading, 
"Terrorism Film," which states, "Develop concept for new 
film: (Greene's strategy, turn terrorists factions against 
each other, like Mafia in-fighting.)" what does that refer 
to? 

A Well, I am vague on the details of it, but it is 
basically, we wanted to do a new film, and this was -- who 
needs a new film on terrorism? I mean there is 8 billion of 
them, so we wanted to have a new strategy for the film, a 
concept for the film. We asked Colonel North what he thought 
we should do, and he told us. 

Q Was this something you discussed with him on more 
than one occasion? 

A Possibly. I do not recall the frequency with which 
we did it . 

Q What developed out of these discussions? Was there 
such a film made? 

A No. 

Q Was any action, further action, taken toward 



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developing such a film? 

A Oh, I think we had the advertising film firm that 
we used, Robert Goodman Agency, prepare a treatment. 

Q And that was it? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, moving ahead to the April 5 outline again -- 
well, let me just ask you one further question on the March 
31 outline. I am sorry, go back again to Page 7. • 

There is a reference to Rob Owen there which, I take 
it, is in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q What is the basis for that reference? 

A As I mentioned before, I do not recall -- I did not 
recall at the time, I mean immediately after the meeting, why 
he was being mentioned to me, and I asked Rich Miller to find 
out. 

Q And Rich said? 

A He would. 

Q What did he say to you? 

A Basically, that Roy Godson did not want to meet 
with us, and I have forgotten what he said about Rob Owen. 
But anyway, nothing ever happened with either of them. 



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MR. McGOUGH: Could I interject just one second and 
■ask one question? 

The notes that are on that page, are those notes 
taken during a meeting with Colonel North? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. ' 

MR. McGOUGH: On your To-Do List -- you are sitting 
there with a To-Do List and as he is saying things to you, I 
you are scribbling them on the list? _ ■ 

THE WITNESS: To-Do Lists are an essential part of 
my life. 

MR. McGOUGH: I understand. But these are notes 
taken contemporaneously with a discussion with Colonel North? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. ! 

I 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

I 

Q And Mr. Miller came back to you and said that Mr. | 
Godson did not want to meet with you? | 

A Yes. 

Q Did he explain why? 

A If I recall, it was because we were conservatives 
and he was not . 

Q Also, while we are still on the March 31 outline, 
returning again to Page 6 to the subject of the terrorism 



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film, there is a reference there to meeting with Terry Arnold 
and Neil Livingston, referred by Greene. What was their role 
to be in this film? 

A Oh, I do not know that they were going to have any 
role in it. The thought was, at the time, -- my thought -- 
was that they might be able to help us to put it together, 
conceptually- 

Q Why did you think they would be able to help? 

A Because they were experts on terrorism. 

Q All right. Now, turning again to the April 5 
outline. Page 9, Item K is "Secretary of State contributor 
referral, see Elliott Abrams . " 

Was that entry drawn from your handwritten note on 
the preceding outline? 

A Yes. 

Q And we have already talked about Item C-1 at the 
top, "Maybe Greene will refer us to an international lawyer 
in Geneva, " and that is also similar to a handwritten note on 
your earlier outline. 

A Yes. 

Q And you do not recall, at this point, how that 
entry is related to Roy Godson, if at all? 



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A Oh, no, I do not. 
{ Pause. ) 

Q Turning to the April 14 outline. Entry Roman III is 
David Fischer- ' 

A Page? 

Q Page 5. Under that, there is an entry, capital C. 
RR Meetings," and under that is Bunker Hunt, Patty Beck and 
May Dougherty King. " 

Beside their names is a handwritten note which 
appears to read, "DLC to privately discuss with David. " 
Whose handwriting is that? 

A Spitz Channel. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A It refers to Item D, the RR meeting with CRC and 
DLC to discuss Future of Conservatism Study. " 

Q It does not refer to Item C? 

A No. 

Q How do you know that? 

A Because there is a line drawn -- there is a circle 
drawn around the D. 

Q Why was that a subject that was to be discussed 
privately with David? 

IT] 






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A Because we wanted to -- the Future of Conservatism 
Study, we wanted to involve -- we wanted to have the President 
make an address at a conference that we wanted to hold on the 
Future of Conservatism, and we were going to do a study 
first, called The Future of Conservatism, which would be a 
polling of well known conservatives. And we wanted to have 
David arrange to get us in to show the results of the study 
to the President. 

Q But again, I am not clear why this is something 
that had to be privately discussed with David. Is there any 
significance to the phrase, "Discuss privately with David'? 

A The only significance is that I was the chief 
liaison, increasingly, with — I mean it did not start out 
this way but it ended up this way, with David Fischer, and so 
in other words, this was a note not to discuss this in a 
public meeting. 

Q All right. 

A So that when I had private meetings with him, I 
needed to discuss it. 

MR. FRYMAN: Why don't we take a break for five 
minutes . 

(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 






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BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, turning to the April 21 outline, on 
Page 1 which is your control number Page 20536, there are a 
number of handwritten notes out to the left. Are those notes 
in your handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q Now, those notes include a reference to Bunker 
Hunt, Greene, 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. Tuesday, and Greene a.m. 
Wednesday. what does that refer to? 
A (Witness peruses document.) 
Are we on the same page? 

MR. McGOUGH: You may have gotten left confused 
with right. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Oh, I am sorry. 

A I am sorry. Now, what did you ask me about? 
Q The entry with regard to Bunker Hunt, what does 
that refer to? 

A I think it means available times that either Greene 
is available or Bunker Hunt is available to see Greene, to 
see Colonel North. 

Q Was a meeting held about this time between Colonel 



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North and Mr. Hunt? 

A I would have to consult my records. 

Q If you would turn to the second copy of this 
outline, which is also included in Exhibit 2 -- actually, now 
that I look at it, it appears to be a separate To-Do List 
with the same date, April 21, 1986. The page I am referring 
to is 20573. 

Is this also a list that you prepared? 

A Yes. 

Q And the notes on the right in handwriting, are they 
your notes? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, there is an entry which reads, "Ellen is 
$60,000 short, cut from us," and the "us" is underscored. 
What does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Ellen Garwood was sending us contributions, and she 
did not send us as much as she had promised, she was $60,000 
short. And we should cut from our reserves, our endowment, 
and write a check for the full amount that she was contrib- 
uting. 

Q Write a check to whom for the full amount? 






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M7 C Sofn. N E 

— -DC iOOOJ 



A International Business Communications. 

Q Are these notes instructions that you received from 
Colonel North? 

A No. 

Q What do these notes reflect? 

A Spitz Channell's instructions. 

Q So you were to draw a check to International 
Business Communications for the amount of the contribution 
from Mrs. Garwood, plus 360,000, and the additional $60,000 
was to be drawn from general funds of NEPL? 

A Yes. 

Q Was Mrs. Garwood asked to make up the additional 
$60,000? 

A I do not recall whether she was or not. 

Q At the top of that page, to the left, there is an 
entry in handwriting, "Greene dinner Thursday, May 1, 7:00 to 
7:30." What does that refer to? 

A I do not remember. 

Q Over on Page 10, there is again the entry, Roman 
IV, "Greene," and under that you continue to have the entry, 
"Roy Godson," and then under that, "Maybe Greene will refer 
us to an international lawyer in Geneva." Is that correct? 






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A Yes. 

Q Does the repetition of that entry indicate that you 
had not yet, when you prepared this To-Do List, received the 
message from Mr. Miller that Mr. Godson did not want to meet 
with you or speak with you? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you have any further recollection as to whether 

there is a relationship between Mr. Godson and the reference 
to an international lawyer in Geneva? 

A The best I can say at the moment is that they both 
related to the saune general overall topic which was, as I 
mentioned before, our setting up of an international found- 
ation. But I do not remember what Roy Godson had to do with 
anything. 

Q That was my question, what was Mr. Godson to have 
to do with the setting up of an international foundation? 

A I thought your question was, how was Roy Godson 
related to an international lawyer in Geneva. 

A Well, I think you may be correct, that was the 
question. But there was a further general question as to why 
you were conferring with Mr. Godson. 

A X did not confer with Mr. Godson. 






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Q Or why Mr. Godson appeared on this list. And is 
one reason that he appears is that he was to be a source of 
information about international fundraising in some respect? 

A It is possible but, again, I mean it would be very 

unlikely for us to ask somebody for fundraising advice, 

internationally. I mean, as near as I can recall, it has to 

do with the setting up -- it is the logistical setting of it ' 

up. It is not fundraising, per se. _ i 

Q Is it now your recollection that Mr. Godson's name ' j 

! 
appears here because you were trying to confer with him, in i 

some way, about the setting up of an international fundraising 

organization? Or do you recall why his name appears here? 

A His name appears here because Colonel North ! 

! 
referred him to us, but I do not remember why he referred him I 

to us. But this took place in the context of — this whole i 

conversation took place in the context of us wanting to set i 

up an international foundation. I just do not remember what j 

I 

Roy Godson had to do with it. i 

Q All right. j 

A And so did the international lawyer in Geneva have 

to do with that. 

Q If you will turn to Page 12 on this outline, 






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Mr. Conrad, those entries appear under the general heading, 
Roman V, 'Western Goals," and under that there is a sub- 
heading, "Talk with Western Goals-Europe," and then under 
that there is an Item 8, "Get a multi-national corporate 
lawyer," and then you continue, "Penn Kemble suggestions, he 
will arrange lunch," then you continue, "Roy Godson." 

What do those entries refer to? 
A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, we wanted to -- Western Goals had a branch in 
Germany, and one -- sort of a branch, a guasi-branch -- I do 
not know what you call it — in Great Britain, and we wanted 
to set them up in countries all over the world. So we wanted 
to get a multi-national corporate lawyer, an international 
lawyer, better said, to tell us how to do that. This 
different from the foundation that we were talking about 
earlier. 

And we asked Penn Kemble who he — I mean we told 
hia about this problem, and he suggested that we talk with 
these people, and he would arrange these luncheons with them. 
All of them, except the meeting with Jean Kirkpatrick, were 
supposed to be at the same time . 
Q Did he — 



same time . 



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A Discussing setting up an international organization. 

Q And this is separate from the worldwide fundraising 
that you have been describing earlier? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, did Mr. Kemble set up any luncheons? 

A No. 

Q What happened? 

A It was one of the things we never got to. 

Q Mr. Conrad, in this outline on April 21, as we have 
looked previously at Page 10, there is the reference to Mr. 
Godson and under that a subheading about an international 
lawyer in Geneva, and then on Page 12, there is a second 
reference to Mr. Godson in connection with an entry about a 
multi-national corporate lawyer. 

Do those entries refresh your recollection at all 
about Mr. Godson's role in the international lawyer, or 
obtaining an international lawyer? 

A No. I mean I didn't even connect that I had them. 
I mean he did not ever make an impression on me because I 
never met the man, I never talked to him, anything, and I 
would have put the two entries — I think I would have put 



the two entries close together if I had realized who we were 






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even speaking of. 

Q Did you ever meet Midge Decter? 
(5 A Did you ever meyt Jean Kirkpatrick? 

A No. 

Q Mr. Conrad, on that same page, on Page 12, there is 
also a reference to Jerry Cassidy. Who is he? 

A He is the owner of -- I think the name of the firm 
is Cassidy and Company. 

Q What do they do? 

A Lobbyists. 

Q Under his name is the entry, "We're setting up an 
international network. " What do you mean by that reference? 

A Well, it had to do with Western Goals. Just as I 
have mentioned before, we want to set up branches in other 
countries. 

Q What was Mr. Cassidy's role to be in that? 

A We wanted to ask him what he thought we should do. 

Q Did he tell you? 

A I do not think we ever discussed it with him. 

Q Turning to the outline for April 27, Roman IV on 
Page 10 is an entry for "Greene, " and under that, capital A, 
there is a description of Greene Meeting with Bruce Hooper on 






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Wednesday, April 30, from 9:30 to 10:00 a.m. 
What does that entry refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Bruc9 Hooper was scheduled to have a meeting with 
Colonel North on Wednesday, April 30th, between 9:30 and 
10:00 a.m. 

Q What was the reason for that meeting, as you 
understood? 

A Private briefing. 

Q Had Mr. Hooper requested such a meeting? 

A I do not know who had requested it. 

Q What were you told about that meeting? 

A My recollections are very vague about it. 

Q Did you discuss that with Jane McLaughlin? 

A I may have. 

Q Do you recall such a discussion? 

A No. 

Q On the next page. Page 11, there is Item N, Greene 
Dinner, Thursday, May 1, 7:00 to 7:30 p.m.," and then a 
handwritten note, "With whom." Is that entry a carry-forward 
of your handwritten note on the earlier outline that we | 
discussed a minute ago? 



im.mm 



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Yes. 



Who "rote the "with whom' there? 



Spitz Channell. 

What do you recall about that entry? 
Nothing. 

The next entry, Roman V, is "PRODEMCA Conference," 
and under that you have, "Contact Fred Sacher for funding, • 
and then under that, 'Proposal due this week from Penn 
Kemble." What does that refer to? 

A Well, we wanted a proposal from Penn Kemble to put 
on a conference, but I do not remember the — I do not 
remember whether he submitted a proposal or he didn't. 

Q What was to be the subject of the conference, if 
you recall? 

A I do not remember. It is one of those projects 
that never went anywhere, so I do not recall. 

Q Moving ahead to June 6, and Page 3, there is an 
entry under the general heading "Jane," which reads, "Greene 
needs to call Bzruce Hooper re $100,000 and how it will be 
used." What do you recall about that entry? 

A I am sorry — June 6, Page 37 Oh, yes, at the very 
top of the page. 






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Q Yes . 

A Under "Jane"? Oh, I see -- previously. 

Jane, in a meeting, told me that Bruce Hooper was 
expecting a phone call, and I needed to tell Colonel North to 
call him about the $100,000 contribution that he gave, and 
how it would be used. 

Q Now, 'Jane" refers to Jane McLaughlin, does it not? 

A Yes. 

Q And Bruce Hooper was an individual who contributed 

$100,000 to NEJpL; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, had you understood that Bruce Hooper intended 
his contribution to be used for any particular purpose? 

A I did not have any understanding. 

Q You were not informed about that? 

A Well, I may have been, but I do not recall. 

Q You do not recall. 

Do you recall Jane asking you to arrange a meeting 
between Colonel North and Bruce Hooper? 

A She might very well have, but I do not recall it. 

Q You have no independent recollection? 

A I have no independent recollection of that. But it 






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is a normal thing I would do. 

Q On that same outline, Page 8, which are items under 
the general heading "David Fischer," which appears on Page 7, 
there is an entry, "B. Barbara Newington to State Dinner, 
July date has been reserved." What does that refer to? 

A I had requested of David Fischer that he arrange to 
get -- actually, more correctly put. Spitz requested that 
Barbara Newington get an invitation to a State dinner at the 
White House, and David said that he would do that, and a July 
date has been reserved. 

Q When you say "a State dinner, " does that mean a 
dinner at the white House for a visiting Head of State? 

A Yes . 

Q And was Mrs. Newington invited to such a dinner? 

A No. 

Q She never was? 

A No. Not to my knowledge. 

Q Do you know why not? 

A I — it kept getting postponed. 

Q There is also an entry on that same page, "Ellen 
needs a thank you from RR, alert David after total is given. 
CRC to draft thank you note." What does that refer to? 






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A Ellen Garwood gave a lot of money, and we wanted to 
get her a thank you letter from the President. We didn't 
want the thank you note to go to Ellen until after the amount 
was given that she had promised to give. So this was to tell 
David — this is an instruction from Spitz that I am supposed 
to tell David Fischer, after the total was given, and Spitz 
was going to draft a thank you note that the President could 
use as a text . 

Q What total had she promised to give at this point? 

A I do not recall. 

Q But at this point in time, as of June 6, it is your 
recollection that there was an additional amount due from 
Mrs . Garwood? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the outline for June 14, Page 3, Item 14 
reads, "Penn Kemble, union participation in SDI? Show Penn 
our latest Freedom Fighter ads." What does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

I do not remember about the union participation. 
The Freedom Fighter ads, we were doing television spots, and 
we wanted to show them to Penn. 

Q Why would you be showing those to Penn? 



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A For his information, because he was very interested 
.in this issue as well. 

Q Now, these entries are all under the general 
heading "Rich Miller," Roman II, "Rich Miller, ' which appears 
on Page 1. Does that indicate that Mr. Miller is the source 
of this entry? 

A No, no, no. 

Q What does it — what is it? 

A It means that they are topics that I need to raise 
with Rich. Sometimes I would, for example, ask him to 
coordinate such a meeting. 

Q What is the source of the notation to show Penn 
your latest Freedom Fighter ads? 

A Spitz Channeil. 

Q That is Channel giving you instructions on that? 

A Both entries are. 

Q Turning to the outline for July 16, Page 9, there 
is a list of RR meetings, or proposed RR meetings, and under 
that is "Mrs. Pierce." Who is Mrs. Pierce? 

A She is a contributor, lives in Florida. 

Q Do you recall how much she contributed? 

A No. I would have to look at my records. 






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Q What was the reason for arranging a meeting between 
-- or attempting to arrange a meeting between Mrs. Pierce and 
President Reagan? 

A Spitz' call. 

A 

Q He just asked you to do this? 

A That is right. 

Q Then Item 6 was the "CAFP small group thank you." 
Is that a group meeting with the President that was proposed 
for the individuals listed under that? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that small group meeting the successor concept 
to the "group grope" entry in the earlier outlines? 

A No. 

Q What is the difference between a "group grope" and 
a "small group thank you"? 

A This is a larger group. 

Q I mean are both basically the idea of a small group 
meeting with the President? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the July 23 outline — off the record. 
(Discussion held off the record.) 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 



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BY KR. FRYMAN: 

Q On the July 23, 1986, outline, Page 7, which is the 
control number Page 20276, there are several entries with 
respect to Barbara Newington under the general heading, 
"David Fischer." One is, "Meet with RR for signing of Contra 
aid bill. " 

Did that occur? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A It is one of those things that didn't happen. 

Q The next is, "private meeting with Greene." Do you 
know if that occurred? 

A Well, she did meet frequently with him; I do not 
remember whether on this date. 

Q All right. The next item is "Larry McDonald 
Brigade report from Rich, and films and photos." What does 
that refer to? 

A Mrs. Newington had made a large contribution to the 
Larry McDonald Brigade, to be used for the Larry McDonald 
Brigade, and we wanted to give her an updated report on the 
Brigade itself. 

Q Now, was that contribution made through NEPL7 






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A Yes. 

Q What was the Larry McDonald Brigade? 

A Well, an artificial -- I do not -- I am not 
positive. I never saw it. My understanding was it was a, 
you know -- what do you call it — a military unit in the UNO 
Forces . 

Q What did you understand her contribution was to 
accomplish, with respect to this Brigade? 

A Well, she was like underwriting the support for 
that particular unit. 

Q Was she buying supplies for the unit? 

A Yes. 

Q Including military supplies? 

A It was never specified. As a matter of fact, I do 
not think — I remember us discussing particularly boots and 
uniforms and food, and I do not recall whether we discussed 
weapons or not. 

Q Who came up with the idea of the Larry McDonald 
Brigade? 

A I am foggy on the point. I think Spitz Channel 1 
originally recommended it, but it might have also — might 
have been already in existence. I am just not positive. 



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Q Do you know if anyone else contributed to that 
.Brigade, other than Mrs. Newington? 

A I believe that Western Goals -- before we took over 
Western Goals, they had, unbeknownst to us, had a project to 
raise money for them, and so I think they had quite a number 
of contributors. But I do not know that for a fact. 

Q Did you participate in meetings with Mrs. Newington 
about contributions to the Larry McDonald Brigade? I said, 
"meetings." I mean a meeting or meetings. 

A I am trying to recall. Well, I remember discussing 
with Mrs. Newington sort of the status of the Brigade. I was 
present when that happened, at least on one occasion. There 
may have been other occasions, but I do not recall. 

Q On the one occasion, how many other people were 
present? 

A Spitz Channell. 

Q Just the three of you? 

A Just the three of us, yes. 

Q Colonel North was not present? 

A No. 

Q Now, there is also an entry here about a "Greene 
weekend in Connecticut," and I take it, that refers to the 






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weekend that Colonel North visited Mrs. Newington at her home? 

A Yes . 

Q Were you present? 

A Yes . 

Q And Mr. Channell was present? 

A Yes. 

Q And Colonel North's family? 

A Yes . 

Q Did Colonel North travel to Connecticut by private 
plane for that weekend? 

A Yes. 

Q Who paid for the plane? 

A NEPL. 

Q Did you travel on that plane also? ! 

I 

A No. ! 

I 
! 

Q How did you travel? 

A Commercial airline. 

Q On Page 11 of this July 23, 1986, outline, there is 
a reference to the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation, and Dan 
Kuykendall . 

A Kuykendall. 

Q Kuykendall, K-U-Y-K-E-N-D-A-L-L. 






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Now, Mr. Kuykendall and the Gulf and Caribbean 
Foundation had had a relationship with NEPL prior to July of 
1986, had they not? 

A I do not remember. 

Q Had they been involved in the CAFP Program? 
A I do not think so. 

Q All right. What did you understand Mr. Kuykendall 's 
involvement with NEPL was? what was Mr. Kuykendall to be 
doing for NEPL? 

A Well, I do not know how to say it. He is a -- 
Q Was he a consultant? 
A He is a consultant, yes. 
Q About what? 

A Well, politics, generally. I do not know how to -- 
politics. I do not know how else to say that. 
Q Was he on a monthly retainer? 
Yes. 

How much? 
It varied over time. I do not know what it started 



A 

Q 

A 

out at 

Q 



Now, what was the relationship between NEPL and the 



Gulf and Caribbean F<?uo<latii«n5s f^ ^ « 9"B f"f^ 



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A Nothing. 

Q What did you understand the relationship between 
Mr. Kuykendall and the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation to be? 

A Dan was, I think, the Executive Director or their 
-- maybe not. Maybe he was their Washington, D.C., represen- 
tative. I never did know exactly. 

Q But your understanding of his relationship with 
NEPL is that he was retained as a consultant, to provide 
general political advice? 

A Yes. 

Q Who is Gene Douglas? 

A Well, I know he is a former Ambassador, but I do 
not know any more — I think he was a member of the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation. 

Q There is an entry on Page 11, under Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation, that Gene Douglas and Ollie North are 
to attend fall meeting. What does that refer to? 

A Hell, the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation was going 
to have a fall meeting, and Gene Douglas and Ollie North were 
supposed to attend it. 

Q Why was that a matter of concern to you? 

A I think it was originally proposed that we should 






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undertake the management of Gulf and Caribbean Foundation. 

Q When you say "we should undertake the --" 

A NEPL, NEPL. 

Q As opposed to Channel Corporation? 

A Well, I mean I was using NEPL in the sense that we 
have been using it all along here, which is everything -- 

Q The whole group of entities? 

A I do not know which entity. I mean since we had 
11, it is hard to know which one it was going to go into. 

Q Were you to undertake the management on a fee 
basis, or were you to take over the organization? 

A It was not clear. I do not think it ever 
crystallized as an idea. 

Q Was this a thought of Mr. Channell's? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know if he discussed that with Mr. 
Kuykendall? 

A Yes, he did. 

Q What was Mr. Kuykendall 's response? 

A He thought it was a good idea . Maybe even he 
proposed it; I do not remember. 

Q The next entry refers to a copy of letter sent by 



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Kuykendall to board members which you are to obtain. What 
does that refer to? 

A Well, Dan Kuykendall sent a letter, I guess 
explaining who we were and what we were about, to his board 
members, a sort of anticipatory thing to the board meeting 
that was going to be held in the fall, to alert them that we 
were on the scene and that we were players. 

Q Was this preparatory to NEPL taking control of the 
Gulf and Caribbean Foundation? 

A Yes. 

Q But that did not occur? 

A Right. 

Q And you do not know why it did not occur? 

A Well, it is another one of those 8 million things 
that we did not get done. This would have been a twelfth 
organization. 

Q Now, we talked earlier about the Southwest Cattle- 
men's Board Member list, and that, again, appears on this 
page under Mr. Kuykendall 's name. What was his involvement 
in that? 

A I do not know if he was ever involved in it. I 
asked him if he could get a copy of the list. 






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Q Well, I guess that is my question. This entry here 
indicates that you asked Mr. Kuykendall to get the list? 

A Yes. 

Q Why did you view him as a vehicle for obtaining 
this list? 

A Well, I do not know how to answer that. I asked 
him to obtain a lot of lists for me at different times. 

Q Did he get this one for you? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the outline for the August 9, 1986, — 
MR. OLIVER: Which one? 

THE WITNESS: There is only one in here. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Directing your attention to the page that has the 
control number on the bottom 20265, there is a reference 
there to the NEPL Conference on Terrorism. What was that? 

A Something that did not happen. 

Q Was this, again, an idea of Mr. Channel! 's? 

A Yes. 

Q Why did it not happ«n? 

A Same answer as before. 

Q Just never got around to implementing it? 






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A Right. 

MR. McGOUGH: Which page are you referring to? 
MR. FRYMAN: It is on Page 20265. 
THE WITNESS: It is in the middle of the page. 
MR. FRYMAN: There is Roman X, "Conferences, " and 
under that, "A. NEPL Conference on Terrorism." 
MR. McGOUGH: I have it. THank you. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Now, under that entry, which I guess is 10-A, "NEPL. 
Conference on Terrorism," there is a Number 3, "Greene," and 
under that there is an Item C, "Letter to Mrs. King thanking 
her for sending Spitz and Cliff and Kris," K-R-I-S, "to Paris 
conference . ' 

What does that refer to? 
A Spitz asked me to have Colonel North send a letter 
to Mrs . May Dougherty King to thank her for the grants , 
monies that she gave us, so that Spitz and Cliff and Kris 
could go to a Paris conference on terrorism. 

Q What was the reason they attended that conference 
in Paris? 

A Well, terrorism was a theme that we were interested 
in, an issue that we were interested in. We wanted to do a 






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film on it. We were thinking about doing a conference on it. 
•We needed more information on it. We met with various people 
to discuss aspects of terrorism. However, we never did 
anything with it. But attending the conference was one of the 
things that we were doing to get up to speed, so to speak, on 
the issue. 

Q Who sponsored the conference in Paris? 

A I forget. Some French organization. 

Q Was that the only reason that Channell and the 
others attended the conference, or made the trip to Paris, 
was to participate in a meeting on the subject of terrorism? 

A As far as I know. 

Q Was there any fundraising purpose in connection 
with that trip? 

A Do you mean to raise money from an individual? 

Q Yes. 

A NO, not that I know of. 

Q On that same page, there is another reference to an 
ATAC, A-T-A-C, Conference in September. Did that conference 
occur? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 






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A This is getting repetitious, sir. Same reason. 
This To-Do List, I point out, is 27 pages in length. We are 
now reaching gargantuan proportions of things that do not get 
done. 

Q All right. Turning to the September 19 To-Do List, 
the control number at the bottom is 20522, there is an item 
Roman XXV, Paris Conference. " What does that refer to? 
A (Witness peruses document.) 

I think it is on terrorism. I think that is the 
update of the previous thing, entry, we were discussing — 
also which did not happen, for the same reason. 
(Pause. ) 
Q Turning to the next outline, dated November 11, 
1986, — 

THE WITNESS: Can we go off the record? 
MR. FRYMAN: Sure. Off the record. 
(Discussion held off the record.) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q The November 11, 1986, outline. Page 4, there is a 
Roman V, "David Fischer," and under that. Item B, 'RR thank 
you letter," and them Item C, "RR thank you meeting." what 
does that refer to? 









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A (Witness peruses document.) 

well, the thank you letter was one in a continuing 
series -- I mean we were always wanting another thank you 
letter. 

Q That is a thank you letter from the President to 
NEPL? 

A Yes . 

Q And a thank you meeting is a meeting with the 
President and — 

A And somebody. I do not know who this one refers 
to. I mean we arranged 8 million of these, so I do not know. 

Q Now, Item D is a reference to "John and Nancy 
Ramsey meeting." What was the reason for attempting to 
establish a meeting between the President and the Ramseys in 
November of 1986? 

A I do not recall. I do not also know whether it is 
supposed to be a meeting with the President. 

Q What do you refer that to refer to, then? 

A I do not know. I do not know why it is there. 

Q And the next entry is "Pentecost meeting." What 
does that refer to? Item E. 

A I think that is a meeting that David Fischer was 






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supposed to arrange with the President. 

Q With the Pentecost? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that your handwriting beside that? 

A Yes, that is. 

Q What does that say? 

A "Next Wednesday, 11/19/86 or Wednesday, 11/26/86.' 

Q Why were you attempting to arrange a meeting with 
the Pentecost and the President? 

A A thank-you meeting. 

Q For what? 

A For their participation in supporting the policies 
of the President. 

Q Does that mean and contributing money? 

A Sure. 

Q Did such a meeting occur? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the January 6, 1987, To-Do List on Page 
2, under the heading, "David Fischer," there is an entry that 
reads, "Status of resume of Barbara Newington's friend 
(attorney)." What does that refer to? 

A Barbara Newington asked us, in a meeting one time. 






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to see if we might be able to refer a friend of hers, who had 
just gotten a law degree, to somebody in Washington, to see 
whether he could get a position. And I had his resume and 
what I did with it was to give it to David Fischer, and he 
was going to pass it on to somebody -- I have forgotten who 
now. 

Q Who was this person? 

A Just a friend of Barbara Newington. 

Q Do you remember the name? 

A The son of somebody. 

Q Do you remember the name? 

A I do not. I would have to look at my records. 

Q Do you know what Fischer did with the resume? 

A He gave it to somebody else but I do not remember. 
He told me who, but I do not remember, at the moment, who it 
was. 

Q Do you know if Fischer succeeded in getting this 
person a job? 

A I do not — I never heard the end of it. That is 
why I have it on the To-Do List, to find out what happened, 
and I never did find out. 

Q Now, Item G under Fischer is a meeting with Bill 






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Simon. What does that refer to? 

A We wanted David Fischer to arrange a meeting with 
us with Bill Simon. 

Q For what purpose? 

A To solicit money. 

Q Did such a meeting occur? 

A No. 

Q Do you know if Fischer knew Bill Simon? 

A He did not know him. 

Q Why would you ask him to arrange the meeting then? 

A Good question. Maybe that is why it didn't happen. 

Q Had you been aware that Bill Simon had been very 
active in another organization to raise money for Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q And that was an organization that Jean Kirkpatrick 

was also involved in? 

A Maybe she was. I do not remember. There were a 
lot of people, notable people, involved. 

Q And Arnaud de sorchegrave had been involved in that? 

A Yes, I remember he was involved. 

Q Arnaud de Bochegrave, A-R-N-A-U-D, de, D-E, 
B-0-R-C-H-E-G-R-A-V-E . 






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atnOWX, 

And there had been a fair^a^o wr of publicity about 



that organization? 
A Yes. 



Do you know what happened to that organization? 

Only from press reports. 

Do you know if they raised a substantial amount of 



Q 

A 

Q 
money? 

A That is what the press reported. Yes. 

Q Do you know who the executive director of that 
organization was? 

A No. 

Q Was it Hal Eberley? 

A I never heard the name, that I recall. 

Q Did you have any dealings with that organization in 
connection with your fundraising activities? 

A No. 

Q Mr. Conrad, in this outline dated January 6, 1987, 
on Page 3, begins a section, Roman VIII, on Nicaragua, and yoi 
have under that. Item 4, "RR to make an aggressive speech," 
which, I take it, refers to President Reagan? 

A Yes. 

Q Then under that you have, "Give Greene an outline 






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of the speech on Tuesday." And "Greene," I take it, refers 
.to Colonel North. 

A Yes. 

Q Now, you are aware, are you not, that by January 
1987, Colonel North had resigned? 

A Yes. 

Q Why would you be giving Colonel North an outline of 
a speech for President Reagan to make on Nicaragua after he 
had resigned? 

A I believe it was an error in -- nothing ever 
happened on this. This is another one of those things that 
never happened. But I believe that this was not removed, in 
error, from the outline. 

Q Colonel North resigned in November? 

A Yes. 

Q And it is your belief that that entry had preceded 
his resignation in your original To-Do List? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, there is a reference in that same section to 
Bob Kagan, K-A-G-A-N. Who is Bob Kagan? 

A To my understanding, he is with the State 
Department . 






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Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
that. 

occasion? 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 



Have you met him? 

No. 

Who told you he was with the State Department? 

I think Spitz. 

Do you know if Mr. Channel 1 has met him? 

Yes . 

Do you know on how many occasions? Let me rephrase 

Do you know if he has met with him on more than one 

I am not sure. 

But at least one? 

At least one. He had lunch with him. 

Was anyone else present? 

Not that I know of. 

Who arranged that lunch? 

Good question. I have no idea. 

What was the purpose of the lunch? 

I did not know. 

When did the — 

Oh, wait a minute. I think he — I do not know who 



arranged it, but I thought — my understanding is that Kagan 



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called our office and asked to see Spitz. I think that is 
•how it went . 

Q Approximately, when did this lunch occur? 

A I could not tell you. I would have to look at my 
notes . 

Q In 1986 sometime? 

A I do not know. 
(Pause. ) 

Q Turning to the January 7, 1987, outline. Page 1, 
which is your control number Page 20919; the handwritten note 
up on the right, is that your handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q Now, those notes include this reference, "Letter to 
Jane. 1. Shocked to hear you did this; 2. You weren't 
authorized; 3. Maybe it's good you're gone." 
Now, is Jane Jane McLaughlin? 

A Yes. 

Q What does the first entry refer to, "Shocked to 
hear you did this"? 

A Well, the whole thing refers to items that were 
supposed to be included in a letter, drafted by our attorney, 
to Jane. 






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Q Was such a letter sent? 

A NO. 

Q What is the first item, "Shocked to hear you did 
this"? What does that mean? 

A Spitz is saying that he is shocked to hear that 
Jane solicited Bruce Hooper for weapons and 5100,000 contrib- 
ution, which she came in and told Spitz. 

Q Is that all it refers to? 

A Yes . 

Q Now, the second line, "You weren't authorized," 
what does that refer to? 

A Spitz is saying that he did not authorize Jane to 
ask for S 100, 000 for weapons. 

Q From Bruce Hooper? 

A From Bruce Hooper. 

Q It refers to that particular contribution? 

A Yes. 

Q Both one and two refer to that specific 
contribution? 

A Yes. 

Q Anything else? 

A No. Jane said to Spitz that she solicited money 




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for arms from Bruce Hooper, and his point was, "You weren't 
authorized to do it." 

Q All right. And the last item, 'Maybe it's good 
you're gone"? 

A She had just resigned. 

Q All right. Now, you say these were notes to be 
included in a letter from your attorney to Jane? 

A Yes. 

Q And that letter was never sent? 

A Yes. 

Q Why was it not sent? 

A I do not know. 

Q Now, if you will look at Page 17 of this outline, 
Item R reads, "Greene list of contributors to Nicaragua," and 
under that is, "l.^^^^^V and "2. Goldsmith." What does 
that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, we were developing a list, we were developing 
a list of people to request contributions from for our 
Constitution Project, and Goldsmith was a contributor who was 
suggested to me by Colonel North. ^^^^^^^^^ I am not sure 
why it is there because I do not recall -- I mean I know why 






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was in my mind, because I had had it for 
■some time, but I do not remember Colonel North saying 
anything about that. 

Q •Goldsmith" refers to Sir James Goldsmith? 

A Yes. 

Q Had he been a contributor to NEPL with respect to 
Nicaragua? 

A We had great hopes, but no. 

Q why had you had great hopes? 

A We think in terms of great hopes. 

Q Had you met with him or spoken with him? 

A No. I had attended a meeting where he spoke, and I 
got more interested in him as a result. 

Q Where was that? 

A In Washington, at the Washington Hilton. 

Q Do you know if anyone else had spoken with him, 
directly or indirectly, on your behalf? 

A Not that I know of. 



him? 



Do you know if Ambassador Whittlesy had spoken with 



A I haven't any idea. 

Q But so far as you know, he had not made any 
If, - -^ . - .'.. .- 






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contribution, with respect to Nicaragua? 

A I can — I am 99.9 percent sure he did not make any 
contribution -- 

Q I say, so far as you know, he did not? 

A Yes. 

Q And you do not know why there is an entry there for 



A Well, it is only my own thinking, but I do not 
know, I mean I -- the thing that puzzles me about it is that 
it says it is "Green list of contributors to Nicaragua, " and 
that is puzzling to me because I do not ever remember him 
mentioning 

Q Do you remember Mr. Channell ever telling you that 
Colonel North had mentioned ^^^^^H 

A I do not recall. I do not think so. 

MR. FRYMAN: Why don't we take a break at this 
point. 

(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 
MR. FRYMAN: During the break, the Reporter has 
marked, as Conrad Deposition Exhibit 9 for identification, a 
volume of copy of handwritten notes which have been produced 
by counsel for the Channel organizations. The particular 






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pages included in this volume, or the control numbers of the 
Iparticuldr pages, are listed at the front of the volume. 

(The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Conrad Deposition Exhibit 9.) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Mr. Conrad, I ask you to look at the first page in 
this volume, which has the control number 68470 — 

A 78470. 

Q I am sorry — 78470. Are those notes in your 
handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q And is there a date on those notes of 8/26/84? 

A Yes. 

Q Does that indicate the date you made the notes? 

A No. 

Q What is that date? 

A It was a mistake. 

Q What should the date be? 

A 8/26/85. 

Q At the top of the page, there is an entry that 
begins "225 contributors." Do you see that? 



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Yes. 



Is that in your handwriting? 

Yes. 

Would you read that, for the record, down through 



the "160." 

A This says, "225," next to it, it says "contribu- 
tors." The next line says, "45," and next to that, it says, 
FCS --" 

Q What does "FCS" stand for? 

A F. Clifton Smith. 

Q And then under that is? 

A And then those two amounts are totaled -- I am 
sorry — are subtracted, and so it is "180," and next to that 
it says "left." Then there is another number underneath 
that, "20," and next to that are the initials "CRC," which is 
Spitz Channell, and below that subtracting is "160." The 20 
trtm 180 is 160. 

Q Now, what is the meaning of this computation or 
entry? What was the purpose of this? 

A I could not tell you. I mean it is one of the 
innumerable calculations we made at different times. It is 

Spitz' mental — I mean he ,iB.-. verba IJ. zing' it, but- his mental 

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thinking-through of the amounts of money that we have, so I 
am taking notes. I do not remember what this referred to. 

Q So this is information that Channel gave to you? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, under that are further notes by you, and if 
anything I read about these notes is incorrect, would you 
stop and correct me. 

A Fine. 

Q But as I read them, it says, "Memo to Rich and 
Frank regarding April requests and accomplishments to date," 
and then in parenthesis, you have "Don't mention Nicaragua." 
What does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well , I do not remember why they were doing this , 
but they wanted to have a list of NEPL's accomplishments to 
date, outside of Nicaragua. In other words, what had we done 
other than Nicaragua? 

Q Who is "they"? Is that Rich and Frank? 

A Rich and Frank, yes. And they were going to do 
like a press kit or something; I have forgotten why. 

Q Now, the note has "April requests and accomplish- 
ments to date." What do the "April requests" refer to? 






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A I am just not sure. I do not remember. 
Q There is also an entry on that page "to have phones 
swept and Cliff's phones." What is the meaning of that entry? 

A Spitz was concerned and, subsequently, Cliff was 
concerned that our phones were being tapped, and so we wanted 
to find out how much it would cost to get them -- what do you 
call it? Well, I call it "swept." I do not know what the 
right word is . - 

Q Is that the significance of the word "cost" and 
question mark at the end of that line? 

A Yes. Cliff wanted to know how much it would cost 
to do his junior one bedroom. 

Q Back up to the first entry, the parenthetical 
phrase "{don't mention Nicaragua)," who specifically told you 
not to mention Nicaragua? 

A Well, probably Rich or Frank. I mean the point of 
it was, as I mentioned, that they wanted to know -- i do not 
remember the purpose of this, but they wanted to put together 
a memo or a document of some kind to go in a press kit, as I 
recall, that talked about the other things that we did 
besides Nicaragua. 

In other words, there was other documentation -- we 






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were not avoiding mentioning Nicaragua. There was other 
documentation in the kit having to do with our efforts in 
Nicaragua. What we had not done was to document our other 
efforts that we had been involved with, and they wanted to 
develop something. It is for publicity, public relations 
work. 

Q Did you arrange to have the phones swept? 

A I do not think we did, at this particular time. 

Q Did you later? 

A In 1986, yes. Way late in the year in 1986. 

Q Did you also arrange to have Barbara Newington's 
phones swept? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason for that? 

A Spitz asked me to. 

Q Why? Do you know why he wanted that done? 

A I think as a favor to Mrs. Newington. 

Q Do you know if he had reason to believe that her 
phones were being tapped? 

A As far as I knew, he did not have any reason. I 
think he was just doing it for a precaution. 

Q Did you consider that step a fundraising technique? 

L 






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A Well, I did, yes. I mean he may have had other 
Ideas about it, but I thought it was a fundraising technique. 

Q How was it a fundraising technique? 

A Well, you heighten the atmosphere around the 
solicitations and the information that you are conveying. 

Q Who paid for having her phones swept? 

A NEPL, as far as I know, or -- using NEPL to mean 
all the organizations — somebody there did. 

Q Do you know the reason that Channell believed that 
there was a reason to have the phones swept at the NEPL 
offices in August of 1985? 

A No, I do not. 

Q The next entry is, "Call Ken with schedule of 
payments to Charles." First of all, who is Ken? 

A 

Who is he? 

President of the Public Management Institute. 

And Charles? 



It is Ken Oilman. 



Charles Gillpan, his cousin. 
Is he also an employee of PMI? 
No. He is deceased now. 
What does that entry refer to? 






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A It is a personal business arrangement with Kenneth 
and myself to Charles GiLtman. 

Q It has nothing to do with NEPL activities? 

A Nothing whatsoever. 

Q One further question on the subject of sweeping 
phones. You say you did have the phones swept in the NEPL 
offices sometimes in 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q Was anything found in that process? 

A No. 

Q Do you know if anything was ever found in sweeping 
Mrs. Newington's phones? 

A No, nothing was. 

Q Turning to the next two pages, which have your 
control numisers 2707071-72- 

A You showed me these before. 

Q These, I believe, are the pages that Mr. McGough 
asked you questions about earlier this week. 

A Yes. 

Q These are notes of March 19, 1985; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

(Pause. ) 






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Q Now, the next page in the volume is a group of 
notes dated 4/5/85, is it not? 
A Yes. 

Q Are those your notes? 

A Yes. 

Q Were they made on April 5, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, out to the side, towards the middle, towards - 
the left-hand side, there is a reference to the "Institute on 
North/South Issues," and then a notation of a "501(c) 3 
applicant." what does that refer to? 

A It was an organization controlled by Rich Miller 
and Frank Gomez, and there was a 501(c) 3 applicant. 

Q Why is there a reference to that organization on 
your notes here? 

A They mentioned it. 

Q For what purpose? 

A I guess to talk about their interest in these 
issues, the whole Nicaraguan, Central American, South 
American things. They were telling me about their credentials 
and so on. 

Q What did you understand the Institute on North/South 






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Issues was to do? 

A I do- not — 

Q Was it ever used for any purpose by your 
organization? 

A By our organization? 
Q Yes. 

A Oh, certainly not. 

Q Are you aware of any money being transferred to 
that organization? 

A Not by us . 

Q By anyone else? 

THE WITNESS: May I talk to my counsel a minute. 
MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
(Witness confers with counsel.) 
THE WITNESS: I do not recall. I do not think 
there were any. I would have to check my records to be sure. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Are you familiar with an organization called the 
Heritage Foundation? 
A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of any funds that the Heritage 
Foundation transferred to the Institute on North/South issues' 



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A No. It is the first I have ever heard of it. 

Q Now, there are also notes there concerning the Gulf 
and Caribbean Foundation, are there not? 

A Yes. 

Q What is the reason for those notes? 

A Well, Rich Miller and Frank Gomez were telling me of 
their previous experience with this issue, the issue of 
Nicaragua and the Contras, and their involvement in Central 
American issues and South American Issues, and they said they 
had worked with the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation and Dan 
Kuykendall. So that is why it is there. 

Q Are these notes of the first meeting that you had 
with Miller and Gomez? 

A Yes. 

A And they are, in effect, at this meeting, explaining 
to you their qualifications in this area? 

A Yes. 

Q And this is you and Channel meeting with them? 

A No. Just me. 

Q Just you. So there is just three of you in the 
meeting? 

A Yes. 



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Q What did you understand their relationship to have 
been with the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation? 

A Well, they caused a pamphlet to be written; whether 
they wrote it or not, I do not know, but they supervised its 
production and all that business, as far as I know, because 
they gave me a copy of it at that time. I think they were 
retained by Gulf and Caribbean to be their publicity, PR firm. 

Q The individuals listed under the Gulf and Caribbean. 
Foundation are individuaHassociated with it? 

A Yes. 

Q Who is Bill Blakemore? 

A Well, he was a contributor to us, subsequently. 
But at that time I had never heard of him before. 

Q Does he live in Texas? 

A Yes. 

Q Did they tell you that Bunker Hunt was an anonymous 
contributor to the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation? 

A Yes. 

Q What did they tell you about Bobby Holt? 

A That he was a member of the Gulf and Caribbean 
Foundation. 

Q Did they tell you he was a friend of George Bush? 



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Yes. 

Did they say how they knew that? 
No. 



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Q Now, there are notations at the bottom of that page 
concerning 26 to 26 districts, or maybe it reads five to 26, 
but I think it reads 25 to 26 districts. 

A I think you are right. 

Q Under that appears to be abbreviations for New 
York, Texas, Illinois and Florida. 

A Yes. 

Q What do those notes refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, I think that is where we thought the Contra 
Aid Bill would be decided, in those districts, in those 
states, in 20 to 25 districts. We went to see Rich and Frank 
about what later became a Central American Freedom Program. 
That is what -- this is sort of a beginning of it. 

Q So what did you discuss about contemplated 
activities with respect to those 25 to 26 districts? 

A As far as I know, it was just television 
advertising. 

Q What was to be the objective of that advertising? 



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A Public education on the issue of the Freedom 
Fighters . 

Q Was the ultimate objective to change the vote of 
the Congressional representatives? 

A Hell, hopefully. 

Q Towards the top of the page, there is a notation of 
"Otto Reich's," R-E-I-C-H-S, "office." 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to, or what did they tell you 
about that? 

A This is their previous experience. They had been 
doing PR for the AAA, and they were either mentioning -- or I 
do not know how they put it — that they were -- that Otto 
Reich's office in the State Department was the one that was 
— I don't know — coordinating all this issue, or something. 
I do not have a specific recollection. 

Q Did they say they were working for Otto Reich's 
office? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Were you aware that they had a contract with the 
State Department? 

A Not at that time. 






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Q You later became aware of that? 

A Yes . 

Q But they did not mention that to you at this 
meeting? 

A Well, not that I recall. I mean they might have, 
very easily, but I just do not recall it. 

Q So your recollection is, the reference to Otto 
Reich's office is that that office was coordinating activities 
with respect to Central America? 

A That is my impression. 

Q And this is activities in connection with the 
upcoming Congressional votes? 

A Well, I am not sure. I do not know that the 
subject ever came up again, and I do not recall. 

Q At the middle of the page, or toward the upper 
middle of the page, there is a reference to "Op Ed pieces and 
articles and speakers," and out to the left of that is the 
naioe "Goodman. " Did they give you the name Goodman? 

A Yes. 

Q Mho is Goodman? 

A Robert Goodman, Robert Goodman Agency, Baltimore, 
advertising. 






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Q Had you known of them before? 

A Never heard of them. 

Q So they put you in touch with Goodman? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is 79113, are these 
your notes, Mr. Conrad? 

A Yes . 

Q And is this April 7, 19857 

A Yes . 

Q Who is Helen Marie Taylor? 

A A contributor prospect. 

Q Where did you get her name? 

A Spitz Channell. 

Q Under that is the name Rich Miller, and there are 
several items listed under Miller; are those matters that you 
are to raise with Mr. Miller? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
Yes. 

Q The first one is "White House authorization letter 
for us and him." what does that refer to? 

MS. MORRISON: Haven't we gone over that? 
MR. FRYMAN: Some of this we have. 






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MS. MORRISON: Almost all of it. 
THE WITNESS: We wanted a letter from the White 
House authorizing us to work on this issue. 

MR. FRYMAN: Let's go off the record for a second. 
(Discussion held off the record.) 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

Would you read back the previous question, please? 
(Whereupon, the Reporter read back the pending 
question. ) 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Would you answer the question, please? 
A We wanted to get a letter from the White House 
authorizing us to work on this issue. 
Q Did you get such a letter? 
A No. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is 37225, are those 
your notes? 

A Yes. 

Q And those are notes you made about April 16, 1985? 
A Yes. 

Q At the top of the page, there is a reference to 
Jamaica World Relief and Thomas B. Evans. Why does that 






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appear there? 

A We were invited to attend — Spitz and I were 

invited to attend a meeting at the — I think it is called 

the Town Club in Georgetown, and Eddy Seaga, the Prime 

Minister of Jamaica, was there and talking about the 

International Youth Conference which was to be held in 

Jamaica in June of 1985, and they needed some money. And 

George Bush attended. j 

And we were asked if we could help with raising \ 

money for it, giving money to it. And Jamaica World Relief | 

was the name of the entity to whom checks should be made j 

payable for the support of the International Youth Conference. ■ 

i 
Q What activities did NEPL undertake with respect to | 

the International Youth Conference, if any? 

i 
I 

A None ■ 

i 

Q None. Had you been aware that Mr. Godson was 

involved in the International Youth Conference? 

A No. 

Q You and Mr. Channell attended this luncheon that 
you referred to? 

A Yes. 

Q Was that your only involvement, with respect to 



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Jamaica and the International Youth Conference? 

A Well, we had several conversations with Tom Evans 
about it but, basically, yes. 

Q What had been the purpose of the further 
conversations? 

A We developed a whole program that we thought we 
would like to pursue. It was a little short-term notice to 
raise money so quickly for the International Youth Project, 
and we started to get involved in thinking how we could help 
for the next year. 

We were putting together a plan, fundraising plan, 
where the Prime Minister of Jamaica and the Ambassador from 
the United States to Jamaica would host some couples to come 
down and be sponsors of this event. We had all kinds of 
discussions about that, but it never went anywhere. We were 
putting together a fundraising plan. 

Q The next page in this volume is 30095; and are 
those your notes dated April 17, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Down at the bottom, there is a heading "Issue 
Options," and an Item 8, "Nicaraguan Refugees, White House 
briefing, solicit in a group." What does that refer to? 






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A (Witness peruses document.) 
I do not remember. 

Q The next item, "Jamaica International Youth 
Conference, ' is that just a reference to what you described a 
minute ago? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q Now, I believe the next page, 78826, dated April 
20, 1985, is a matter you have been questioned about 
previously, is it not? 

A Yes. 

Q That is also marked as Exhibit 7. 

Now, is the next entry or the next page, 37226, 
your notes dated April 22, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q The first entry reads, "John Roberts re RNC efforts 
to identify major givers," and there is some word after that 
that I cannot read. My first question is, can you read the 
rest of that? 

A I think it says "data base," but I am not positive. 

Q In any case, what does that entry refer to? 

A The fact that the Republicans were not very well 
organized for fundraising. 






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Q What were you going to do with John Roberts 
concerning this? 

A We discussed their lack of organization, and I 
suggested that I had several techniques that I think they 
should be using, and they did not appear to be using. And he 
thought that was a good idea, and I should be put in touch 
with those people to see if I could be helpful to them. 

Q So this is a matter you discussed with John Roberts?, 

A Yes . 

Q Was it just the two of you? 

A No. Spitz was there, as well. 

Q How many times did you meet with John Roberts? Was 
it numerous occasions? 

A No, no. Maybe three that I can think of off the 
top of my head. 

Q Did you speak with him on the phone on other 
occasions? 

A Yes. 

Q This is the John Roberts who worked with Ed Rollins? 

A Yes. 

Q Continuing on that page, it reads, "Call Peter 
Dunston, Martin Marietta, re PAC fundraising. " What does 



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that refer to? 

A We met Peter Dunston at the Jamaica event with Vice 
President Bush, and we started talking with him about -- he 
had a PAC He is with Martin Marietta, he had a PAC, and he 
was having difficulty raising money, and we said, "Oh, that 
is no problem, we know how to do that. We need to talk to 
you . " 

Q So you were seeking to be retained by hijn, or to 
work with him? 

A Something. Nothing ever happened, though. 

Q All right. 

A I mean it wasn't clear what we wanted, not even to 
us. 

Q The next entry is, "Send ad to Pat Buchanan and 
Rich Miller and John Roberts," and "Call John Roberts first." 
What ad does that refer to? 

A Well, I am not positive. Either a TV ad or a space 
ad. It is either a newspaper ad or a television ad; I am not 
sure which. 

Q What was the reason for sending the ad to those 
three? 

A So they could see what we were doing on their 






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behalf. I mean they were concerned about the Contra issue as 
well as we were, and we wanted to show them what we were 
doing. 

Q Had you had discussions with Mr. Buchanan about 
this? 

A To my knowledge, Spitz never did, and I never did. 

Q Who told you to send this to Buchanan? 

Q Was it his idea? 

A Yes . 

Q What was the reason for calling John Roberts before 
sending the ad? 

A To alert him that they were coming so he would know 
to pay attention to them. I think they were actually the TV 
ads. 

Q The next entry concerns an appointment with Bush 
and a reference to Craig Fuller. 

A Yes. 

Q Did you arrange such an appointment? 

A Eventually, yes. 

Q Do you recall when that occurred? Was it several 
months later? 

A Oh, many months later. 






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Q Now, the last entry says, "John Roberts, ' and then 
there is a reference to "Rich Miller and districts," and a 
further reference to a "follow-report to Pat Buchanan." What 
does that refer to? 

A I believe it refers to the fact that we were 
advertising on television in a number of different media 
markets around the United States on the Contra aid vote. And 
we wanted to give a report to Pat Buchanan on the outcome of 
the votes of the Congressmen in those districts. 
( Interruption to proceedings . ) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Did you make such a report? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, were those television ads prepared by the 
Goodman Agency? 

A Yes. 

Q The first you heard of the Goodman Agency was on 
April 5, 19857 

A Right . 

Q In your meeting with Mr. Miller? 

A Yes. 

Q How quickly did they prepare ads to be used? 






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A Oh, I think 24 hours. 

Q That quickly? 

A Yes . 

Q And they began to be -- 

A Complained about it bitterly, but they did it. 

Q They began to be run within a few days? 

A Oh, yes. 

Q So there was time for a media campaign before April- 
22nd? 

A I think this might have been concurrent with it; I 
aun not sure. we could check our other records and be sure 
exactly when it started and stopped. Our intention was to 
run the ads, and this may have been a day or two, or something 
like that, prior to the actual report being written. 

Q All right. 

MS. MORRISON: This is a good place to stop. 
MR. FRYMAN: We will break until 2:30. 
(Whereupon, a luncheon recess was taken.) 






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AFTERNOON SESSI_gN 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
Whereupon, 

DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 
having been previously duly sworn, was recalled as a witness 
herein, and was examined and testified further as follows: 
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL 
FOR THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, directing your attention to the 
handwritten notes dated April 28, 1985, the one that has your 
control number 3452 3 at the bottom. There is an entry at the 
top which reads, "WH, " which I take to mean white House, 
"strategists targeted 53 representatives whose votes could be 
swayed to support RR in Nicaragua aid vote. ACT ran TV ads in 
12 districts, eight of them voted yes to support the 
President. " 

Is that your handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q Did you make those notes on April 28, 19857 
A Maybe . 
Q On or about that date? 






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A Yes. 

Q Who are the White House strategists referred to in 
that sentence? 

A No one . 

Q Well, what does that phrase refer to? 

A I do not know how to answer the question. This is 
a report in which we are putting ourselves in the best 
possible light, and so I am -- this isn't a fundraising 
doc^lment, but I am tempted to call this fundraising -- one of 
the things that you do with fundraising, to sensitize the 
situation, to make it more important. Ip other words, there 
is no basis in fact for the use of the term "White House 
strategists. " 

Q Well, did someone target 5 3 representatives? 

A I think so. 

Q Who? 

A I am not sure who did this . 

MS. LUBIN: Excuse me. Could I interrupt for a 
moment. This seems a little far from the mandate, and I 
would just inquire of the relevance. 

MR. FRYMAN: If you have read the House Resolution, 
I do not think it is far from the mandate at all. 






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MS. LUBIN: Well, refresh my recollection. 
MR. FRYMAN: The activities with respect to 
lobbying and the votes on Nicaragua aid, I think, are 
subjects of the investigation. 

MS. LUBIN: Do you have a copy of the Resolution? 
MR. FRYMAN: Sure. 

(Counsel proffers document to counsel.) 
MS. LUBIN: Thank you. 
(Counsel peruses document.) 

MR. FRYMAN: Please read back the pending question. 
(Whereupon, the Reporter read back the pending 
question. ) 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Did you develop this phrase, "White House 
strategists targeted 53 representatives," or did someone else 
give you that phrase? 

A I think it was Spitz, but I am not positive. 
Q It was not you? 

A Well, I mean it is possible that it was me, but I 
do not recall it. 

Q Is it your recollection that 53 Representatives 
were selected whose votes could be swayed? 






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A Yes. Targeted. 

Q Targeted? 

A Yes. 

Q And you do not recall who targeted them? 

A I think several people were involved in the process. 

Q Who were the several people? 

A Spitz Channell, Rich Miller. There were others, 
but I do not remember who they were. I mean maybe I did at - 
the time, but I do not know or I do not remember now. 

Q Was John Roberts one of them? 

A I do not think he -- I do not recall that he did 
that, but it is, again, possible that he did, and I just do 
not remember it - 

Q Was Robert Goodman involved in that? 

A That is also possible. 

Q Now, did ACT run TV ads in 12 districts? 

A To the nearest of my recollection, yes. 

Q Now, by "districts," does that refer to Congress- 
ional districts, or what? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this handwritten document transformed into a 
typewritten or printed document? 



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A As I recall, yes. 

Q What was that used for? 

A We gave a report to John Roberts. I believe I gave 
it to Rich Miller and he reworked it, or whatever, and then I 
think it was given to John Roberts, but I am not positive. 

Q Anyone else? 

A I do not think so. I mean I do not know what John 
Roberts did with it. 

Q Turning to the next note, which has the number 
27635 and the date 5/3/85, and I believe that carries on to 
the next page, and then the following two pages are another 
copy of those saune notes, with some additional written 
material on them. 

Are the notes on 27635 and 36 your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Were those notes made on or about May 3, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Item Number 2 is "IDC." What does IDC stand for? 

A Institutional Development Council. 

Q What is that? 

A It is a fundraising consulting firm in New Jersey. 

Q What was their role in NEPL activities? 



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A Well, I know that we have been referring to NEPL to 
mean all the organizations, but in this particular instance 
they were working only for the American Conservative Trust, 
and their role was to implement a program which they -- have 
a trademark called a "Phone/Mail Program," which is a process 
of fundraising program of sending a series of letters to an 
individual, a prospect, and calling them and asking them to 
pledge a contribution. 

Q Were they retained by ACT to do that activity? 

A Yes. 

Q In May of 1985 or in the Spring of 1985? 

A In the spring. 

Q Now, what do letters "A and B" mean? 

A As I mentioned, the Phone/Mail Program is a series 
of letters. Letter A and B, and actually I think there are 
quite a number in the series, and A and B are just the first 
two that a prospect would receive. That is how they refer to 
then. 

Q There is another note to, "send a copy to Bunker 
Hunt, asking for permission to use his name." 

A Right. 

Q What does 



that refer to?_ ^ t, o ?! r>--^ r\ 



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A That is Letter A. We wanted to send a letter on 
Bunker's personal stationery to our prospects saying -- the 
letter says, basically, "I think ACT is a great idea, and 
they are going to be sending you a letter in the next few 
days, and X wish you would read the letter." 

Q Did Mr. Hunt consent to that? 

A No, he did not. 

Q So it was not sent on his stationery? 

A Right. 

Q Were these letters sent? 

A Yes. 

Q What stationery were they sent on? 

A Boy, that is a good question. I do not recall who 
finally ended up doing it. 

Q The last entry there is, "Send stationery to New 
Jersey." What does that refer to? 

A Well, the letters A and B were going to be sent 
from the New Jersey Office of Institutional Development 
Council . 

Q But what stationery are you referring to? 

A American Conservative Trust. 

Q Now also on that page, there is an entry, Number 4, 



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for Calero, and under that you have the note. Get list of 
material needs,' and then "boots, bandages, etc' 
What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to raise money for the Freedom Fighters 
directly, and the best way to do that, for fundraising 
purposes, is -- for the fundraising process, is to get a list 
of what their needs are, rather than just say, "Well, we need 
X number of dollars. " 

Q Was that list provided by Mr. Calero? 

A No. 

Q Did you get it from some other source? 

A No. 

Q How did you proceed in your fundraising without the 
list, then? 

MS. LUBIN: Are you asking him to describe how they 
raised funds for the next two years in all of this, or are 
you asking something more -- 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, I am really following up on his 
answer . 

MS. LUBIN: I understand, but the follow-up kind of 
opens up two years of activities, and it is not that easy to 
see how you want it narrowed. 



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MR. FRYMAN: Well, if Mr. Conrad is having trouble 
answering it, he can say so. 

THE WITNESS; I do not know how to -- if you could 
put the question differently, maybe I could -- I just do not 
know how to answer it . 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Well, you indicated that you needed a list of 
material items in your fundraising, and you said you were not 
able to get such a list. 
A Right. 

MS. LUBIN: I think he said it would be helpful. It 
wasn't the only way he could do it. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Well, then, you were able to proceed in your 
fundraising without the list; is that correct? 

A Yes. It is just not as good, to be able to do it. 
Q Okay. I will just pass over it. 

Now, there is another entry there, "Set first White 
House briefing date for first week in June." Who was to 
arrange for that? 

A Rich Miller, Frank Gomez. 
Q And did they do so? 






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A Yes, they did, but it was not in the first week of 
June . 

Q It was later in the suiraner? 

A Later in June. 

Q Later in June. And you say you are to "set an 
appointment to see the slide show to be viewed at the 
briefing. " 

A Yes. 

Q Who was preparing the slide show? 

A I have no idea who was going to prepare it. 

Q Did you see the slide show in advance of the 
briefing? 

A No, I did not. 

Q You saw it at the briefing for the first time? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this a slide show of Colonel North's? 

A Yea. Who prepared it, I haven't any idea. 

Q But you saw it for the first time at the briefing 
when he showed it? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Channell saw it in advance? 

A No, he did not see it in advance. 






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Q Do you know if Mr. Miller saw it in advance? 

A That I do not know. 

Q Continuing, you have another entry there to 
"arrange for John Ramsey's trip to Nicaragua." What does 
that refer to? 

A We had the thought to send John Ramsey on a tour of 
the camps of the Freedom Fighters, so he could see first-hand 
what was going on. 

Q What was the purpose of doing that? 

A I guess fundraising texture. I mean — 

Q Were you seeking further contributions from Mr. 
Ramsey from such a trip, or were you intending to use him as 
a fundraiser to seek funds from other persons, or was there 
some other reason? 

A Oh. Well, the more you know about a subject, the 
better -- the more involved you — the more involved you get 
with the organization and the cause and all that, the more 
money you contribute, the better spokesperson you are, the 
better motivated you become. This is just all part of that 
process, what I would broadly call "donor cultivation." 

Q Who was going to pay for John Ramsey's trip? 

A It was not discussed. 






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Q Did he make such a trip? 

A No. 

Q Now, there is a reference after that to "John 
Ramsey '3 fundraiser dinner date in Wichita Falls, Texas." 
Did he have such a fundraiser dinner? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Well, it got postponed several times. He could not 
get enough response, I think, of interest in his town. 

Q But it never occurred? 

A No. 

Q Now, after that, there is the name Billy Monger, 
M-0-N-G-E-R. Who is Billy Monger? 

A He is an oil man, I believe, in -- I think it is 
Louisiana, maybe Mississippi. 

Q Where did you get his name? 

A Spitz Channell. 

Q Did he become a contributor? 

A No. 

Q Did you call him? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 






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A It is one of those things we never got to. 
Q The next name is Margaret Brock. Who is Margaret 
Brock? 

A She lives in Los Angeles. She is a personal friend 
of the Reagans , and she is involved in political fundraising 
in California. 

Q Did you call her? 
No. 

Why not? 
Saone problem. 
Never got around to it? 
Right. 

Then after that, there is the name Akki Oxner, 
A-K-K-I, 0-X-N-E-R. Who is that? 

A He is a doctor in, I think. New Orleans. 
Is that the correct spelling of his name? 
I do not think so. 
Is it 0-C-H-S-N-E-R? 

Maybe. I do not know how to spell his name. 
Is he the doctor who has the Ochsner Clinic there 
in New Orleans? 

A It may be. There surely cannot be two. 






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C Sont. N E. 

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Q Where did you get his name? 

A From Spitz Channell. 

Q Did you call him? 

A I did not, no. 

Q Did someone else? 

A Yes. 

Q Who? 

MS. LUBIN: If you know. 

THE WITNESS: I think it was Cliff Smith, but I am 
not positive. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Did he make a contribution? 

A No. He made a pledge, but no contribution. He 
welshed. 

Q 
stand for? 

A It is a mistake; it stands for IBC. 

Q All right. Finally, Item 11 on the next page 
relates to Barbara Newington, and your note is to "develop a 
memo on who she is and what she has done to warrant meeting 
Ronald Reagan. " 



Now, Item 5 on this list is "IBS." What does IBS 



Who was to develop such a memo? r,.^ 






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A Spitz. 

Q Was that done? 

A At various times, I think, yes. 

Q Did Mr. Miller prepare such a memo at one time? 

A Maybe . 

Q Turning to the notes dated May 17, 1985, which is 
Page 37227, are these your notes? 

A Yes . 

Q And were they made on or about May 17? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, under the heading "Calero, " there is an item 
which reads, "Ollie North letters have been sent?' what does 
that refer to? 

A Well, as I recall. Rich Miller proposed, or Frank 
Gomez proposed that we send some — I do not even remember 
the content of the letters, but basically a form letter from 
Oliver North to, I think, a dozen contributors or something. 

Q Had you met Oliver North by this point? 
No. 

Who had identified him for you? Was that Mr. Gomez: 
Maybe. It was either Rich Miller or Frank Gomez. 
And it was their idejji thftti-C^Jjevel North send such 



t ■' ". ■" 'i'" ■ ''■ >'- f ' •> i ' i *i if *' " 



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letters? 

A Well, it may be Spitz Channell's idea. I am not 
sure. 

Q Now, you have under that the entry, "When will we 
see slide show?" and there is the further notation, "Monday 
at 3:00 p.m. "' 

A Right. 

Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 
you saw the slide show in advance of the briefing? 

A Oh, yes, I did see this slide show. 

Q Is that the same slide show as the slide show for 
the briefing? 

A No. 

Q What slide show does this refer to? 

A I have forgot the guy's name — but anyway, we had 
a briefing at the State Department where there was a slide 
show, and we did not use it. We did not like it, we did not 
like the guy who talked. I have forgotten the guy's name. 

Q Is that Colonel Larry Tracy? 

A Yes. Very good. Yes, that is who it was. 

Q What didn't you like about his slide show? 

A It was boring. 




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Q Who put you in touch with Colonel Tracy? 

A Frank Gomez. 

Q The next item is "New information on Nicaragua 
situation." Do you recall what new information this referred 
to there? 

A Well, we just wanted to get the most current 
information that was possible to get. 

Q Turning to the next note, which is dated 5/20/85, 
is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you make those notes on or about May 20, 



1985? 



Yes. 



A 

Q At the top, there is the notation, which appears to 
be "White House tour Monday night." what does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

I guess that there are tours on Monday night at the 
White House. I mean I do not know. I do not recall the 
context of this. 

Q Now, under that, there is the name John Roberts, 
and a list of various items. Are these items you were to 
raise with Mr. Roberts? 






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A 
Q 
A 
Q 
Reagan 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 



Yes . 

Who told you to do this? 

Spitz . 

And one of those items is a letter from President 



Yes. 

Did you get such a letter? 

No. 

why not? 

I could not answer the question, I do not know. 

Did you ask for it? 

Yes. 

You asked Roberts for it? 

Yes. 

But you never got it? 

No. 

Item 3 reads "Update on Nicaragua I ads and plans 
for Nicaragua II ads. " Did you report to John Roberts about 
those subjects? 
A Yes. 

Q Item 4 is "Nicaragua refugee fundraising program 
and White House briefings." Did you discuss that with 






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3U 



Mr. Roberts? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ask him to arrange for White House 
briefings? 

A I do not recall that. I am not sure, we may have. 

Q What was the purpose of that entry? 

A I think -- it is one of two things, I am not sure 
which. It is either "We are going to do this and wis are 
letting you know, • or it is "We are telling you we want to do 
the first, part, and can you help us with the second part." 
In other words, "We want to do refugee fundraising, and can we 
get White House briefings, or to tell you that we are going 
to do refugee fundraising, and we have already White House 
briefings scheduled." 

Now, this is 5/20 — I am guessing by that time we 
already knew. 

Q At this point, Mr. Roberts was on the White House 
staff; is that correct? 

A Yea. 

Q Did you consider him your principal contact with the 
White House staff at this point? 

A Yes. 



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Q Turning to the notes dated May 22, 1985, is that 
your handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you make those notes on or about May 22, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Toward the bottom, there is an entry, Dan 
Kuykendall/Bunker. ■• What does that refer to? 

A Dan Kuykendall knew Bunker Hunt and we, as I said 
earlier, trying to get Bunker Hunt to sign a letter and let 
us use his personal stationery to send Letter A out for the 
American Conservative Trust. Dan Kuykendall was going to 
intercede on our behalf, to see whether or not he could get 
Bunker to take our phone call so that we could discuss it 
with him. 

Q Do you know if he did? 

A Who? 

Q If Mr. Kuykendall spoke to Mr. Hunt? 

A Tes, he did. 

Q Did you then speak to Mr. Hunt, or someone on NEPL? 

A Yes. 

Q The only responaibility of Mr. Kuykendall here was 



to make the initial contact with Mr. Hunt? 



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A Yes. 

Q To enable you to get through to him? 

A Yes. 

Q Who spoke to Mr. Hunt after that? Was it you or 
Mr. Channell? 

A Mr. Channell. 

Q Were you present? 

A I do not think so. I do not recall it. 

Q Did Mr. Channel report to you what happened in the 
conversation? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he say? 

A I do not recall. 

Q The subject was using Mr. Hunt's stationery for 
these letters; that is your understanding? 

A Yes. 

Q And the basic answer was, no, you could not? 

A Right . 

Q Turning to the notes dated May 30, 1985, which 
appear on Page 75725, is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you make those notes on or about that date? 






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WuhnftDO. D C. 



A Yes . 

Q Who is Ray Hower? 

A I think he is in real estate in Washington, D.C. 

Q What is his relationship to Barbara Christian, if 



any.- 



A I think I may have the name confused. 

Q Barbara Christian is a — 

A I know who Barbara Christian is. 

Q — from Kentucky? 

A Yes. But Ray Hower is -- I thought he was -- as 
far as I know, there is no relationship between them. 

Q Does that note indicate that Barbara Christian and 
Ray Hower were to meet together with someone? 

A No. I think it means — I am guessing -- 
MS. LUBIN: Don't guess. 

THE WITNESS: I just do not recall, I really do not. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q What is the Roe Foundation, R-0-E7 

A It is a foundation — the Thomas Roe Foundation -- 
in, I think. North Carolina. 

Q You have an entry, "Roe Foundation for Freedom 

?. -■ ■- rXh ^^ 5 i >< S g a a L sJ 






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M>7 C Sum. N E 






322 



A Yes- 

Q What are the Freedom Spots? 

A An advertising program, public education. 

Q Is that related to Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you receive funds from the Roe Foundation for 
those spots? 

A I am not positive. I would have to look at my 
records . 

Q Did you seek funds? 

A I think we did, yes. 

Q Did NEPIi ever receive any funds from the Roe 
Foundation? 

A It is possible. Again, I would have to check my 
records to be sure. 

Q If there were such a contribution, it would be 
reflected in the books of NEPL? 

A Or one of the other organizations, yes. 

Q One of the Channell organizations? 

A Yes. 

Q The Roe Foundation would not pay the Goodman Agency 
directly for such spots? 









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A I would not think so. No. I mean they would -- I 
do not know. 

Q Your understanding of the normal operation is that 
contributions would come to NEPL or another Channell 
organization? 

A Yes . 

Q Then there would be disbursements from that 

organization to pay for the ads? 

A Yes . 

Q Are you aware of any instances where there were 
payments directly to the Goodman Agency for advertisements? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Also on these notes, there are the names Justin 
Dart, Jr., and Peter Dunston. Were they other potential 
contributors? 

A Yes. 

Q And that is the only significance of their 
appearance there? 

A Yes . 

Q Turning to the notes dated June 3, 1985; again, is 
this your handwriting? 

A Yes. 






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Q And were these notes made on or about June 3, 1985? 
A Yes . 

Q In Item 4, under "Calero," there is a reference to 
a "military briefing." what does that refer to? 

A When we had a briefing, we wanted to — for 
fundraising purposes, we wanted the briefing to fall into 
three parts. The military briefing was one of the three 
parts . 

Q What would be included in the military briefing? 
A Military update as to what is happening with the 
Freedom Fighters . 

Q How they are faring militarily? 
A Yes. 

Q There is also a reference, under "Calero," to 
soliciting Mr. Gaylord. Who is Mr. Gaylord? 

A One of the Forbes 400 wealthiest people in America. 
whore did you get his name? 
Spitz Channell. 
Did you solicit him? 
No. 
Why not? 



He is one of the many prospects we did not get to. 




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Q Under "IBC," on that same page, there is a referenc 

to the -- is it "Bailey Museum dinner list"? 

A Yes. 

Q What is that? 

A I am forgetting where it is -- it is in Virginia 

somewhere, and the museum held a fundraising event, some kind 

of dinner --I do not know -- special event, and it was | 

reported in the Post, Washington Post. I saw the article and \ 

i 
saw, "Oh, how wonderful. I would love to have the list of ! 

those who attended."' | 

Q There is also the entry, "Jacques Chirac, Mayor of 
Paris . " What is the reason for that entry? 

A I do not recall. 

Q What was the source of that entry? Was that i 
something Mr. Channell told you? 

A I think, actually, Frank Gomez told me about him. 

Q Were you planning to solicit Mayor Chirac? 

A No. That would not be a reasonable -- although it 
is not a bad idea. You are catching on. 

Q Well, was he to participate in some program, do you 
think, or was there some other reason? 

MS. LUBIN: Can we go off the record? 






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MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
(Discussion held off the record.) 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Turning to the next page of those notes, under the 
entry for "Nicaragua II ads," you have a note to "solicit 
contributors for 325,000," and you have the names Roy Haley, 
H-A-L-E-Y, Larry Parmen, P-A-R-M-E-N, Bunker Hunt and 
Langhorn Washburn. 

We have spoken of Mr. Hunt and we have also spoken 
of Mr. Washburn; who are Roy Haley and Larry Parmen? 
A Roy Haley is Roz Haley. 
Q Roz Haley? 

A Yes. She is a contributor who we have also spoken 
of before; lives in two towns in Texas and, I also believe, 
the Canary Islands, if I recall properly. Lari^ Parmen, I do 
not recall — I have never met him. I do not know who it is. 
I do not recall. 

Q There is also an entry there to send Lloyd Unsell, 
U-N-S-E-L-L, IPAA, a schedule of the ads. Who is Lloyd 
Unsell? 

A He is executive director of the Independent 






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Petroleum Association of America, I think is the name of it. 

Q What was the reason for sending him a schedule of 
the ads? 

A So he could see the kind of thing we were doing. 

Q Why did you care about him seeing the kind of thing 
you were doing? 

A Because we wanted to do -- we wanted to do Item 13 
with him, on the next page. 

Q That is "Oil Spots"? 

A Yes. 

Q What is that? 

A We wanted to do a fundraising campaign for Lloyd 
Unsell. I am not phrasing it right. We wanted to do an 
advertising campaign to -- this had to do with the tax 
changes that were, I think, proposed at that time, to cut out 
or vastly reduce the oil exploration allowance. 

Q Is that unrelated to Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. 

(Interruption to proceedings.) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q On the next page. Item 11 is Jamaica. Now, we 






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talked this morning about Jamaica and, if T recall, you said 
your only activity, with respect to Jamaica was attending the 
luncheon in Georgetown. 

A No. I also said that there were conversations with 
Tom Evans on the point. 

Q What do these entries on this page with regard to 
Jamaica signify? 

A Well, just further — I mean I do not -- they 
signify that we are working on the issue. 

Q What does "Campbell for Congress" have to do with 
the issue? 

A It has nothing to do with the issue. It has to do 
with Tom Evans. 

Q What does that have to do with Tom Evans? 

A Tom said would we make a contribution to Campbell 
for Congress. And rather than make a new category, since I 
already had 15 categories on here, I just stuck it under 
"Jamaica. " * 

Q What did you understand Tom Evans' relationship to 
the Campbell for Congress campaign was? 

A I knew he was going to hold a fundraiser for him at 
his home, and he was just asking us, I thought, as a friend 






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of Campbell's, that would we give a contribution. As far as 
I know. I do not know -- there might have been more to it 
than that, but I do not know. 

Q Turning to the notes dated June 5, 1985, headed 
"Ollie North letters," — 

MR. McGOUGH: What is the control number? 
MR. FRYMAN: 30118. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Is that your handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q Were those notes made on or about June 5, 1985? 
A Yes. 

Q Do these notes indicate that letters were contem- 
plated from Oliver North to the individuals specified here? 
A Yes. 

Q Who suggested that? 
A I am guessing — 

MS. LUBIN: If you do not know or you do not 
recall, indicate that you do not know. 

THE WITNESS: I do not recall. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q At this point in time, you had not met Oliver North? 






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No. 



But you had heard Mr. Gomez mention him? 
Oh, yes. 
And Mr. Miller? 
Yes. 

What was the reason for sending letters from 
Colonel North to these individuals? 

A Well, as I said previously, I do not remember what 
the content of the letters was. I mean it is obviously in 
some connection with fundraising, but I do not know -- I 
cannot recall what. 

Q Were these individuals all potential contributors? 
A Yes. 

Q Turning to the next page of notes, which appears to 
be dated June 30, 1985, it is headed, at the top, "Terrorism 
Briefing." Do you see that? 
A Yes. 

Q Is that your handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q At the end of that page, there is the reference to 
Barbara Newington and, "Rich Miller should contact a CT phone 
sweeping for estimate." We talked about that subject briefly 



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this morning. 

Is this Mr. Channell suggesting this to you? 
A Yes. 

Q On over or«Qhe third page of these notes, which is 
control number Page 30131, there is another reference to 
Barbara Newington, which states, "Needs to meet the President 
very shortly, by -- ■ and it appears to be "7/19/85." Again, 
does that reflect a conversation with Mr. Channell? 
A Yes. 

Q Do you know the reason for his belief that Mr. 
Newington needed to meet the President very shortly? 
A Mrs. Newington. . 

Mrs. Newington, I am sorry. 
Fundraising cultivation. 
Anything more specific? 
No. 

Why the significance of that specific date? 
He loves to put deadlines on things. 
You believe that is the only reason for that date 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 

Q 

there? 
A 

Q 



On that same page, under the heading "IBC," there 



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is the note, "Work out relationship with ACT and NEPL, " 
N-E-P-L. 

A Excuse me. We need to go back. I think by the 
19th because I think he was planning to leave on the 20th on 
his vacation, so he wanted the meeting arranged with the 
President before he left. 

Q All right. Did that occur; do you know? 

A I cannot recall. 

Q Going on then to the next item, with regard to IBC, 
that states "Work out relationship with ACT and NEPL, ' and 
then there are the further notations, "In constant touch with 
us; never say 'no'; our disappointments so far; how they will 
handle envy and criticism about out. 

What do those notes refer to? 

A It is about our relationship, the consulting 
relationship that they had with us. 

Q What do you need to work out in the relationship? 

A Well, I amVCalifornia, that is what we do. 

Q Well, what do you have in mind doing here, in this 
specific instant? 

A Well, just,_you know, have a nice conversation, to 

at everybody is 

;^iTy 



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conutiunicating . 

Q Well, I guess what I am trying to get at, Mr. 
Conrad, is what needed clearing, at this point, between IBC 
and the Channell organizations? 

A Well, I mean there is inevitable problems that 
occur in almost all relationships, and this is just a random 
selection of various things that we were concerned about, 
that they needed to hear what we were saying. 

Q Well, the first one is, "In constant touch with 
us." What does that refer to? 

A They needed to be in constant touch with us. 

Q Were they? 

A No. 

Q So you were dissatisfied with the frequency of 

conununication? 

A Yes. 

Q That was one thing? 

A Yes. 

Q The second item is, "Never say 'no.'" What does 
that mean? 

A They did not ever say no. It appears to mean that 
they never say no to us but, in fact, what it was, was -- 






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wait a minute, am I misstating how I am intending it? 

Anyway, they did not — when we would put in a 
request to them, they never said, "No, we cannot do that." 
They said they would always do it, but then they did not get 
it done. This reached epidemic proportions, as you saw, 
later in the To-Do Lists. 

Q All right. Then the next items is, "Our disappoint- 
ments so far." What did you have in mind there? 

A Well, we have a list of -- a lengthy list of items 
that they were to do that they had not done, and we are 
paying them a lot of money, so we want to know why they have 
not done all the things that we are asking them to do. 

Q So that is what, basically, that refers to? 

A Yes. 

Q Finally, your last lino is, "How they will handle 
envy and criticism about us." What does that refer to? 

A Well, we were being very successful at this point 
in raising money and working on the Nicaraguan issue, and we 
felt that we needed a public relations strategy to deal with 
the inevitable envy and criticism from other conservatives, 
for example. 

Q Turning to the next page oj. notes, which is dated 



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July 3, 1985, and has the control number Page 75728, Item 5 
has -- well, first of all, is this your handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you make these notes on or about July 3, 1985? 

A Yes . 

Q Item 5 reads, "S15,000 in June for direct Contra 
aid. " What does that refer to? 

A {Witness peruses document.) 
I am not sure. 

Q The next. Item 6, is "June 26, $500,000 for 
Contras . " What does that refer to? 

A I can make an intelligent guess, but I cannot 
recall . 

Q Your counsel is going to tell you not to make a 
guess . 

A So I do not recall. 

Q Well, do you have some recollection of a note that 
you made in July of 1985 of a significant amount of money to 
go to the Contras on a particular date? 

A No. 

Q The next, Item 7, la "June 28 — " would you read 
that line, please? 






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A It says, "June 28, fundraising dinner, netting 
5100,000 for the Contras . " 

Q What does that refer to? 

A A planned dinner, which I think was held on the 
27th or sometime -- I do not know, around there -- where we 
were hoping to raise 5100,000. 

Q Were you seeking a substantial contribution from 
Mrs. Newington for the Contras in June of 1985? 

A I believe so. 

Q Did you visit her home in Connecticut? 

A No. 

Q Did Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. I do not know if he went to her home. 

Q But he visited her in Connecticut? 

A Wherever. I do not know if it was in Connecticut. 

Q He visited with her? 

A Yes. 

Q Did she make a substantial contribution? 

A I cannot recall. I mean it is easy to check. All 
we have to do is look at the records . 

Q Looking again at that entry, "June 26, 5500,000 for 
the Contras," in light of our discussion about Mr. Channell 






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visiting with Mrs. Newington in June of 1995, does that 

refresh your recollection at all about that entry? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the next group of notes, which is dated 

July 8, 1985, control number Page 30123, I believe; what is 

the reference in Number 12, "Calero/ --" is that "Rizo," 

R-I-2-0? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A As I recall, Rizo was saying something — Lord, I 

cannot remember what -- but we wanted -- he was saying 

something he should not be saying in public, I do not know, I 

cannot recall. I just do not -- I cannot think of what the 

topic was but, anyway, we wanted IBC to talk to Calero, to 

get him to shut Rizo up. 

Q For the record, who is Rizo? 

A I cannot recall. He is a former Ambassador to the 

United States from a Central American country, which maybe is 

Nicaragua — I am not sure — and he was head of the 

Nicaraguan Refugee Fund. 

Q And this note signifies that you wanted Mr. Calero 

to make an effort to cause Mr. Rizo to stop making certain 
It : 



:ause Mr. Rizo to stop n 



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statements? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, the next entry, 13, refers to "Dinner with 
Colonel North. " 

A Yes. 

Q What does that entry mean? 

A We wanted XBC to arrange for us to have a dinner 
with Colonel North. 

Q This is you and Mr. Channel!? 

A Yes . 

Q Why did you want to have dinner with him? 

A To talk about worldwide fundraising and to get his 
cooperation in helping us further in our fundraising efforts, 

Q Did such a dinner occur on July 9, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q That was at the Hay Adams? 

A Yes. 

Q That was you, Mr. Channell and Colonel North? 

A And Rich Miller and Frank Gomez. 

Q It was the five people? 

A However many that is, six -- seven of us; isn't 
that right? Five of us. You are right. Sorry. 



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Q Now, Item 3 on this list again refers to Jacques 
Chirac. Does that refresh your recollection at all about Mr. 
Chirac? 

A Yes. And it is not another Richard Secord, I will 
tell you that. 

Q Is it related to Nicaragua? 

A No, in no way. 

Q Turning to the next page of notes, which has the 
control number 37236, and I believe is dated July 12, 1985; 
is this your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Were these notes made on or about July 12, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, there is an entry in those notes, 'Colonel 
North to Mrs. Newington for dinner." Was that a subject that 
was discussed at your dinner with Colonel North on the 9th of 
July? 

A Well, Colonel North to attend dinners, in general, 
was. I do not recall whether specifically it was for Mrs. 
Newington. 

Q Does this note indicate that you will attempt to 
arrange a dinner between Colonel North and Mrs. Newington? 



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A Yes . 

Q Was this your idea or was this Mr. Channell's idea? 

A Mr. Channell. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is dated July 13, 
1985, and has the control number 36901; is this your hand- 
writing? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you make these notes on or about the 13th of 
July? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, these notes have an entry concerning a "meeting 
with Fred Sacher, Ollie North and us in August. ' Was this 
Mr. Channell's idea? 

A Yes. 

Q Did such a meeting occur? 

A I do not recall. 

Q There is also an entry at the bottom to "request a 
meeting with Ed Rollins after August 11." What does that 
refer to? 

A Spitz wanted to have a meeting with Ed Rollins when 
he got back from vacation. 

Q What was the purpose of the meeting? 



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A I am not sure X ever knew. 

Q Did the meeting occur? 

A I am not sure. 

Q Turning to the next group of notes which is dated 
8/6/85, -- before we turn to that, let's go back to the notes 
dated July 13th. In the middle of the page, on the right- 
hand side, there is some writing that appears to be headed by 
the word "Contracts." Can you read that? 

A Yes. 

Q What does it say? 

A "One contractor, three months, $250,000, heavy 
drops . " 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Renting of an airplane to make supply drops to the 
Freedom Fighters . 

Q Where did you get that information? 

A I do not recall. 

Q What is the significance of the line drawn through 
those items? 

A Well, it indicates that it is done, but I do not 
know what I did with it. 

Q What is a "heavy drop"? 






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A It means it is an airplane that is capable of 
carrying heavy weight, heavy supplies. 

Q So just to expand upon this note, does that mean 
that you could retain a contractor for a period of three 
months to make such heavy drops for the total sum of $250,000? 

A Yes . 

Q This note indicates that someone gave you that 
information? 

A Yes. 

Q And you do not recall at this point who gave it to 
you? 

A Right. 

Q Now turning to the notes dated August 6, 1985, -- I 
believe there are two copies included in this volume. The 
first set has your control numbers 30116-17. Is this your 
handwriting? 

A Yea, sir. 

Q Were these notes made on or about August 6, 1985? 

A No. I think these were made after that. 

Q Why do you say that? 

A Because the next document was the one that was made 



on August 6th. 






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Q I think they are the same, are they not? 

A Yes, but the first one was made in Venice, Italy, 
and the second one was made in Washington, D.C., so there is 
at least a week of time difference between the two. 

Q You are going to have to explain that, Mr. Conrad. 
What pages are you referring to? 

A 26895, I guess it is -- yes, 95, and -- 

Q And 2S896? 

A Yes. -- were made in Venice, between — Spitz 

r 

Channell and I were on vacation and ovyfe paths crossed in 
Venice, Italy, and so we had a meeting -- inevitably. And so 
we -- this is my notes from the meeting. 

Q Yes. 

A Then when I came back to the United States -- I do 
not know, a couple of weeks later, something -- I wrote it 
out in a different form. 

Q If you would compare the two, are you sure these 
are not just two copies of the same document? 

A Yes, they are. 

Q They are two copies of the same document? 

A I mean one is the copy of the other. 

MR. FPYMAN: Could we go off the record. 






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(Discussion held off the record.) 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q So Pages 26885 and -- 

A No , 9 5 . 

Q -- 95 and 96, you wrote in Venice, Italy? 

A That is correct. 

Q And then the preceding two pages, which are 30116- 
17, which have very similar content, were physically written 
by you when you returned to Washington, D.C.? 

A That is correct. 

Q What is the significance of the 8/6/85 date? Was 
that the date of the original notes in Venice, Italy, — 

A Yes . 

Q — or the later notes? 

A Yes, the original notes in Venice, Italy. 

Q All right. What was the reason for making a second 
handwritten copy of these notes? 

A Well, the first copy in Venice was written on a 
small piece of paper, and so the second copy I wrote on 
bigger paper. 

Q Other than the difference in the size of the paper, 






537 



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what is the difference? 

A That was the only difference. 

Q That was the only difference. 

A And there is not much reason there. But thank you 
for asking. 

Q All right. Well, let's then focus on the Venice 
copy, and that copy was made on or about August 6, 1985? 

A That is correct. 

Q Item 6 refers to Ellen Garwood, and under that it 
says, "Bring plane to her?" What does that mean? 

A We thought that -- the Freedom Fighters wanted to 
buy an airplane, a used airplane, and we wondered whether or 
not we should bring the plane to her so she would not have to 
travel, so she could see it. 

Q What was done about that? 

A Nothing. 

Q Did she buy the plane, or did she buy this used 
plane you had in mind? 

A No. 

Q The next item is, quote, "Catalog," closed quote, 
"of Freedom Fighter needs from Mr. Greene," and I take it, 
that refers to Colonel North? 






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A Yes . 

Q What did you have in mind by the "Catalog of 
Freedom Fighter needs"? 

A Well, as I have mentioned before, it is a list of 
specific material items, with a price tag on them, that we 
could use for our fundraising purposes. 

Q That would be a more effective fundraising 

technique, to have such a list? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, the next line is, "Spark to attend ?/Greene to 
attend?" What does that line mean? 

A That means can we get either Adolfo Calero or 
Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North to go to a meeting with Ellen 
Garwood at her — to meet with Ellen Garwood in her home. 

Q To seek a contribution from her, or to describe the 
needs of the Freedom Fighters? 

A To describe the needs of the Freedom Fighters . 

Q And then the last item, "Date?" I take it, means 
when — 

A 

Q 



When can we arrange this. 

What was to be included in this catalog of Freedom 



Fighter needs? 






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A Oh, T mean that is not for a fundraiser to 
.determine. You know, you talk to the people that want to buy 
things, and you say, "What is it that you need?' 

Q So you did not care one way or the other? 

A Oh, I could care less. 

Q It was the same to you if it included boots or if 
it included missiles? 

A Right. 

Q Am I correct that you did not care because your 
objective, as a fundraiser, was to raise the funds? 

A Yes. 

Q Not the use of the funds? 

A Right. 

Q There is a reference also in these notes to an 
October 22 — I am sorry — to an August 22 White House 
briefing, and there are references to John Ramsey concerning 
that briefing. Was this to be a special briefing for Mr. 
Ramsey and a group that he would bring? 

A Well, as I mentioned previously, the fundraiser 
that he had wanted to have in Wichita Falls, Texas, did not 
come through. He could not get enough interest. But I 
believe Spitz proposed to him that he should bring some of 






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50' C Sow. N t 
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the — since there were not enough people for us to make d 
.trip there, maybe the reverse was true, and they could make c 
trip to Washington. 

Q Did that occur? 

A No. 

Q Do you know why not? 

A John Ramsey could not get enough interest. 

Q Turning to the preceding page in these notes, Item 
2 is "terrorism Conference," and under that there is an 
entry, "Confirm availability of the farm." What does 'the 
farm" refer to? 

A I think it is a CIA training place. 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 




How do you know about it? 

I think Rich and Frank told us about it. 

Was it available for such conferences? 

No. No . 

I do not understand this entry, "Confirm 
availability" of this CIA training place. 

A We wanted to see whether it would be possible for 
us to get it, to hold a conference th^e;;^Gj^'Prfiy\^we did not -- 



ronference the;;^G_^'Prfl7>w 



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the reason I laughed is because, subsequently, I discovered 
.that it is impossible to get in there. 

Q You tried? . 

A Yes . . 

Q Who told you about "the farm"? : 

A I think Rich and Frank. It is possible it could be 
Spitz. 

Q Turning to the next page of notes, which are dated 
August 19, 1985, and has the control number 34965; is this " ■ 
your handwriting? 

A Yes . i 

Q Were these notes made on or about August 19, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, the heading at the top is "Greene, " and I take 
it, again, that refers to North? 1 

A Yes . j 

Q You have written there, "Goal: $5 million." what 

does that refer to? I 

I 

A These are notes of a meeting — it is a combination 1 
of things. One is what I was to discuss with Colonel North, 
and the other part of the list is what he responded. In 
other words, it is a combination of what I was to talk about 



5 '• . V f ^ " t'^i y ~ •• e - \ - * L ft 



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and what actually was talked about. 

We were going to go solicit Bunker Hunt, and we 
wanted to raise S5 million, and I had to tell Colonel North 
to prepare for that. 

Q Well, is the first entry, "Goal S5 million," that 
is a note of something you are going to bring up with Colonel 
North; is that correct? 

A Yes . 

Q Does that reflect a discussion between you and Mr. 
Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q There is the word "catalog" also. Is that word 
related to the notation, "Goal: $5 million"? 

A Yes. 

Q What do you mean by "catalog"? 

A The catalog of Freedom Fighter needs. 

Q Or a list of needs -- a "catalog" means a list, in 
effect? 

A Yes. 

Q And this is what, eventually, leads to the two 
pages of yellow notes that is used in the meeting with Mr. 
Hunt in Dallas? 






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A Yes. 

i. Q Now, at the top there is an entry, "9/9-12, Dallas, 
World Anti-Communist League." What is the significance of 
that entry? 

A Well, in Dallas at the same time, at 9/9 until 
9/12, the World Anti-Communist League was holding its 
convention. 

Q So does that indicate you were thinking of 
approaching Mr. Hunt in Dallas during this meeting of the 
World Anti-Communist League? 

A I do not know what we were thinking about at the 
time . 

Q What is the relationship between that entry and the 
entry concerning the catalog, with a goal of $5 million, if 
there is any? 

A There is not any connection. 

Q There is another entry on there, "Control over 
Spark's public statements." What does that refer to? 

A Well, as I recall, Adolf o Calero was saying things 
he should not say in the press — I do not remember what it 
was that he was not supposed to say, but it was not furthering 
his cause very much, and we felt that somebody needed to have 




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control over him. 

Q And you raised that with Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q What did Colonel North say? 

A Nobody had control over him. 

Q The ne.xt item is "Barbara and Ronald Reagan." What 
does that mean? 

A We wanted to arrange a meeting between Barbara 
Newington and President Reagan. 

Q And you raised that with Colonel North? 

A Yes . 

Q What did he say? 

A He would work on it. 

Q And the next items is "Letters from Ronald Reagan." 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A We would like to get some endorsement letters, 
thank you letters . 

Q From? 

A From the President. 

Q The President to NEPL? 

A Or any of the other organizations. 






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say about 

A 

Q 
available 
Sacher . ' 

A 
available 
talk with 

Q 

A 

Q 
times? 

A 



and under 
different 
Reagan? 

A 

Q 



The other organizations. what did Colonel North 
that? 

He would work on it. 

The next item is "List of days next week when 
for one-hour meeting, Ellen Garwood and Fred 
What does that refer to? 

I was supposed to find out when he would be 
so that we could bring in these two contributors to" 
him. 

'He' being Colonel North. 
Yes . 
What did he say about that? Did he give you some 

Yes. 

( Interruption to proceedings . ) 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

The next item is "Thank you letter to ACT/NEPL," 

that is "Greene and Ronald Reagan. " How is that 

from the entry above, about letters from Ronald 

It is not. 

So that is duplicative, at least insofar as Ronald 






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Reagan is concerned? 
A Yes. 

Q Now, up to that point, are these notes made in 
advance of your meeting with Colonel North? 
A Yes. 

Q Now, the next item is "8/22 meeting, military 
update. " Was that made in advance of your meeting with him? 

A We are getting into a fuzzy area. I do not recall, 
where it exactly stops. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to have a briefing — excuse me. Could 
we go off the record for a minute. 
Q Yes. 

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
(Discussion held off the record.) 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
THE WITNESS: The question again? I am sorry. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q We were talking about the 8/22 meeting and the 
military update, and what that referred to. 

A We wanted to have another briefing, like the one we 
had in June that Colonel North gave, and I was supposed to 



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tell him, I believe, that there was supposed to be -- that we 
wanted the military part of it updated. 

Q Was that a brief.Lng for potential contributors then? 

A Yes. 

Q The next item is "Major endorsement letter. ' what 
does that mean? 

A It duplicates the items above. 

Q Again, a letter from the President? 

A Yes . 

Q Then there are various dates that are given there, 
October 18th, 17th, September 20th and 19th, and September 
12th and 13th; what are those dates? 

A Those are alternative dates on which he would be 



free. 

Q 
meeting 

A 

Q 
A 

Q 



So this is information that he gave to you at the 



Yes. 



And this is for the meeting with Mr. Hunt in Dallas? 

Yes. 

Finally, at the bottom, there is an entry, 
"452,000," and then in parenthesis, "(6 months time 100 hours 
a month)." What does that refer to? 






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A That is, again, an airplane for making drops into 
■ — to the Freedom Fighters in the field. 

Q Is this information that Colonel North gave you? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason, to your understanding, that he 

gave you this information? 

A He just mentioned it in passing; I do not recall. 

Q Well, were you to seek funds for this item? 

A I was not instructed. 

Q This relates again to the heavy drops; is that 
correct? 

A I am not sure. The amounts of money are a little 
different, but I am not sure. 

Q But this relates to — 

A Some type of aircraft which delivers — 

Q — obtaining services of a certain type of aircraft? 

A Yes. 

Q And you understand this to mean for a total of 

$452,000, you can obtain the operation of an aircraft for 100 
hours a month for six months? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this to be one of the ^ij^qns to be included on 




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the catalog for Mr. Hunt, or do you recall? 

A No. No, it was not specifically to be included. I 
gave specific instructions to Colonel North that he could put 
anything on it he wanted to, in the catalog. 

Q Turning to the next page, which I believe is dated 
August 23, 1985, and has the control number 26886; is that 
your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Were those notes made on or about August 23, 1985? ' 

A Yes. 

Q At the top, there is the entry, "Greene, special 
thank you to Fred Sacher." What was the reason for a special 
thank you to Fred Sacher? 

A I think he had made a contribution. 

Q Then a "letter to Mrs. Pierce"? 

A I think she made a contribution also. 

Q All right. Now, Mr. Conrad, looking at the next 
sariea of notes, or actually the next page of notes, which is 
control number 37242, and is dated September 3, 1985, and 
this is a page of notes that has previously been specifically 
marked as Exhibit 8 . 

I just have a couple of questions about this page 



yNClASSifP 



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of notes. First of all, they are in your handwriting; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And it was made on or about September 3, 1985; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, to the right, there is the heading, "Dallas," 
and there are various names under that, beginning with Brad 
Burns. What is the significance of those names? 

A Prospects . 

Q Were they people you planned to meet with in Dallas? 

A Yes. "Hoped" is the better word. 

Q All right. Who is Mary Crowley? 

A A wealthy lady, now deceased. 

Q Has she been a contributor? 

A Yes. 

MS. LUBIN: Are we getting to a point soon where it 
would be convenient to break? 

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
(Whereupon, at 4:41 p.m., the taking of the 
deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 9:00 a.m., June 24, 
1987, in Room 901 of the Hart Senate Office Building.) 



UNCUSSIFe 



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^ikM^SmH 



359 



I have read the foregoing 166 pages, which contain 
a correct transcript of the answers made by me to the 
questions therein recorded. (^(^ [jVmJMU( Qj^^yCcic^^^ 




DANIEL LYNN Cd^JJUVD 




Subscribed and sworn to before me this 
day of , 1987. 



Notary public in and for the 
District of Columbia: 



My commission expires: 



mm I^^IRrH 



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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER 

I, Terry Barham, the officer before whon the forego-- 

ing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness 

whose testimony appears in the foregoing transcript was duly 

sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was taken by i 

me and thereaftrer reduced to typewriting by me or under .-ny - ! 

supervision; that said deposition transcript is a true record ! 

J 
of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither 

counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to 

the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further, 

that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 

counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 

otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 



Terry Barham, Notary Public in 
and for the District of Columbia 



My commission expires May 15, 1989. 



NC[ 



553 



UNCUSSIHED 



'361 



361 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Wednesday, June 24, 1987 

Washington, D.C. 

Continued deposition of DANIEL LYNN CONRAD, taken 

on behalf of the Select Committees above cited, pursuant to 

notice, commencing at 9:28 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart 

Senate Office Building, before Terry Barham, a notary public 

in and for the District of Columbia, when were present; 

For the House Select Committee: 

THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. 
Staff Counsel 




SPENCER OLIVER, Esq. , pertaiiy Declassified/Released on Jd±lL 
Associate Counsel- under provisions of E.0. 12356 

by N. Menan, National S«curity Cound 
KEN BUCK, Esq. 

Assistant Minority Counsel 
For the Senate Select Committee: 



THOMAS McGOUGH, Esq 
Associate Co 



GH, Esq. A 

uNcussinEyi 



K 



554 



1362 



UNCLASSIFIED 



UNCIASSIFIED 



362 



For the deponent: 




ELAINE LUBIN, Esq. 




Swidler 6 Berlin 




Suite 300 




3000 K Street, N.w. 




Washington, D.C. 20007-3841 


1 


CONTENTS 


' 


Examination by counsel for 


Paqe 


House Select Connnittee (Mr. Fryman) 


363 : 


EXHIBITS 


i 


Conrad Exhibits 


Marked 


10 


473 



555 



d363 



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^S^ 22 
^ 23 



^^^ 



24 



^CLASSIFIED 



363 



Whereupon, 

DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 
resumed as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, directing your attention again to 
Deposition Exhibit 9 for identification, would you look in 
that exhibit at notes dated September 9, 1985. 
A (Witness peruses document.) 

Okay. 
Q On that page, there is an Item 6 which is marked 
with a star and reads, "Tom Signhorst," S-I-G-N-H-O-R-S-T, 
"wants our 12 names in Dallas." Is that in your handwriting' 
A Yes. 

Q Would you explain that entry? 

A Tom wanted some prospects who were contributors of 
ours for him to send letters to for his foundation. 

Q First, identify for the record who Tom is again. 
A Well, at this time he was — I'm not sure what his 
position title was — Executive Director, perhaps, of a 
foundation that was co-chaired by Senator Grass ley and the 
representative from Oregon, whose name I have forgotten. 



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UNCIASSIHED 



364 



Dennis — I have forgotten the last name. 

Q What had been your prior association with -- 

A Denny Smith. Denny Smith. 

Q What had been your prior association with Mr. 
Signhorst, as of September 1985? 

A Just a friend, I guess; consultant. I think he 
served on the boards of some of our organizations, maybe. I 
am not positive exactly. 

Q What had his positions been, other than working for 
this organization that you Just referred to? 
MS. LUBIN: If you recall. 

THE WITNESS: He worked for Senator Grass ley. I 
can't remember in what capacity. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Had your association with him begun when he had 
worked with Senator Grassley? 

A When he had what? 

Q When he had worked for Senator Grassley. 

Q I don't remember who he was working for exactly, 
when I first met him. I just don't know. It was either with 
this foundation or with Grassley. I don't know. 

Q You say he had beeir. a consultant to NEPL? 

A I am not sure. I am really unclear on the point. 
I cannot answer the que8ti<jn,_ . I^ don.' t_ know. I would have to 
look at my other record. 




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UNCussra 



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Q What was his area of expertise for consultation to 
an organization such as NEPL, if you know? 

A Well, he was a political fundraiser. 
Q And if NEPL had retained him as a consultant, it 
would have been in that capacity? 

MS. LUBIN: Are you asking him to speculate? 
MR. FRYMAN: Well, he said that — 
MS. LUBIN: I understand what he said; he doesn't 
recall. 

MR. FRYMAN: All right. I will withdraw the 
question. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Now, your note refers to "our 12 names in Dallas.' 
A Yes. 

Q What is "our 12 names"? 

A I believe I said 12 of our contributors in the 
Dallas area. 

Q Was Mr. Hunt one of those? 

A I could not tell you who was on the list. I would 
have to look. 

Q Where would the list be? 

A Well, it is on our -tpaster list. I mean I would 
have to get a P^^QV¥i|#C| ^?% Vi¥iHW^ ^^ would have to look 

„ .. .„. ,.. OiiJCLASSIrlED 

Q You understand that that reference refers to all 



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UNcussro 



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the contributors on the master list that are located in 
Dallas? 

A Yes. I don't know; it might be. I don't know. 

The word "all," if you are saying all the names, I don't 
know. It might have been a selection of the names, but I 
think it was all of them. 

Q The 12 significant contributors in Dallas? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know why Mr. Signhorst wanted those names? 

A Yes. He wanted to send them a letter to ask them 
to contribute to his foundation. 

Q Now, Item 11 on that page reads, "Call Green re 
J- ' Lyon." What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to find out from Colonel North whether he 
knew Jimmy Lyon, who was a banker in Houston. 

Q Did you call him? 

A I don't think I phoned him. I think I went to see 
him. 

Q Did he know him? 

A I can't recall. I don't think he did. I think he 
might have heard of him, but I don't think he knows him. 

Q What was the reason- for calling Colonel North about 
Jimmy Lyon? 

MS. LUBIN: He said he didn't call. 

THE WITNESS: Well, we were constantly trying to 



UNCIASSIRED 



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find connections, and this was just one of those that we were 
fishing for. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Where did you get Lyon's name? 
A Spitz had known him previously, or met him 
previously, something. 

Q I am not clear then, Mr. Conrad, what was the 
reason for making a note to call Colonel North about Jimmy 
Lyon if Mr. Channel 1 had already known Jimmy Lyon. 
A I guess to be able to get in — 

MS. LUBIN: If you recall. If you don't recall, we 
don't want you to speculate. 

MR. FRYMAN: I think that is a constant throughout. 
If he doesn't recall, he shouldn't speculate. The questions 
call for his recollection. 

MS. LUBIN: I understand. But it is early in the 
morning, and I think we're all a little bit out of practice, 
and I wanted to refresh his recollection of the use — it 
s««awd to DM that he was speculating. 

THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question. 

MR. FRYMAN: If the Reporter would read the 
question back. 

(WhereuBoji^ the ReEprter_read back the pending 
question. ) 

THE WITNESS: Well, the purpose was to get more 



reuponj^ the Reporter read 

ONCLAS^IFIED 



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connection with him than we already had. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q What do you mean by 'more connection"? 

A I don't know how to answer that. Find somebody 
that knew him better than we did. 

Q What was the reason that you thought Colonel North 
knew Jimmy Lyon? 

A We didn't know. 

Q You just had a hunch that he might? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning in that exhibit, Mr. Conrad, to the notes 
with the date October 3, 1985, on them. 

A Yes. 

Q There is an entry at the bottom, 'List of topics to 
discuss with Green." What does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
I do not recall. 

Q Is that a note to yourself? 

A Yes. 

Q That is in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q And you mag 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know if such a list of topics was developed? 

A I do not recall. 



Mrafflf 



r 3, 1985? 



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Q Turning to the next page, which are notes dated 

October 7, 1985; is that in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q And were those notes made on or about October 7 , 



1985? 



Yes, 



A 

Q There is a note, "Green, " then an arrow, and then 
the name "Ramsey, " and then a note in parenthesis. Late on 
10/16," and there is a check mark by that line. What does 
that line refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

That Ramsey was coming to town and that he could 
meet with Colonel North in the afternoon of 10/16 — late in 
the evening, I am sorry. 

Q What does the check mark mean? 
A I do not recall. 

Q Txirning to the next page, which is dated 10/18/85, 
and it has the control number at the bottom 37517; is that 
yoar handwriting? 
A Yei. 

Is everything on that page your handwriting? 

I don't think so. -. 

What is not? 

The date and the numbers out to the side. 



"CH042271," whatever that is. 



UNCIASSIHED 



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MR. McGOUGH: Just for the record, the ■CH" Ls the 
Senate control number. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q All right. Do you know who placed the date on 
there? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Do you know if you made those notes on or about 
October 18, 1985? 

A I don't know. I would have to check my other 
documents . 

Q What other documents would you refer to? 
A This is on the back of a "To-do list,' and the to- 
do list was dated — I can't recall the date, and I have -- 
MS. LUBINt This has been separated. This is not 
how it was produced hare. 

MR. FRYMAN: Let's go off the record a minute. 
(Briefly off the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

During the break, we have looked at the documents, 
as produced by counsel for the'Channell organizations, and we 
have noted that the notes which are included in Exhibit 9 
that we have just been discussing, which have Control Page 
37517 at the bottom, are contained on the back of a type- 
written sheet which has the Control Number 37516, which has 
the typewritten date October 18, 1985. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Now Mr. Conrad, do«a that r«fr«sh your recollection 
if you made the notes on 37517 on or about October 18, 1985? 
A Yes. 

Q Did you make them on or about that date? 

A Yes. 

MR. McGOUGH: Could I interject just one question? 
It is on the back o£ an agenda for October 18, 
1985. Would you have put that agenda together on or about 
October 18th, 1985, or would have put it together sometime 
prior to October 18, 19857 

THE WITNESS: Sometiin« prior, but just a very brief 
time prior. 

MR. McGOUGH: So, essentially, — 
THE WITNESS: Hayba a day prior, for example. 
MR. McGOUQl: But the front page, the agenda 
itself, would have been put together sometime shortly before 
October 18, 1985? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. McGOUGH: Oo you recall when the handwritten 
notations were put on there? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. -. . 

MR. McGOUGH: And when was that? 

THE WITNESS: Abou 



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BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Now, returning to the handwritten notations, would 
you read those for the record. 

A Item number one is "multi-frequency radios, ' and 
underneath that it says "33K each," which is 333,000; and the 
item two says "50 SAM missiles, Sl.l million, and underneath 
that it says, "S22,000 each times 50," and then there is a 
line and below that, it says, "leaks down there.' 

Q First of all, is this information that yoo obtained 
from a conversation with someone? 

A Yes. 

Q Who was that person? 

A Colonel North. 

Q Where did that conversation occur? 

A In the Old Executive Office Building. 

Q And you were meeting with him face to face when you 
made these notes? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. What do these notes refer to? what is 
item one, "multi- frequency radios, $33,000 each"? 

A They are special radios that the Freedom Fighters 
would use, that kept communications secure. 

Q What was the reason that that wf^f||f|j( 
discussion between you and Colonel North? 

A He had mentioned it in a briefing, public briefing. 




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Q Why did the subject come up with your meeting with 



hint? 



A I wanted to find out much it cost. 

Q For what reason? 

A So that we could ask contributors. 

Q Did you raise the subject of radios with him? 

A Yes. 

Q And you asked him the cost of the radios? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you discuss anything else about the radios? 

A He said something else, but I don't recall what it 

3 . 

Q Now, the second item refers to 50 SAM missiles. 

What are SAM missiles? 

A Surface to Air missiles. 

Q How did that subject come up in your discussion 
with Colonel North? 

A I asked him how many they needed. 

Q What did he say? 

A Fifty. 

Q Did you also ask him the cost of the missiles? 

A Yes . 



Q And he said, "$22,000 each"' 

A Yes. 

Q And that was a total cost of $1.1 million; is that 



mmvm 



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correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason you asked him these questions 
about the missiles? 

A Spitz asked me to find out how much each of these 
items cost. 

Q What was the reason you were asking about this 
specific item? 

A He didn't tell me. 

Q Had Colonel North discussed SAM missiles in 
briefings before? 

A Oh, yes. 

Q So you were aware that this was a military item 
that he believed was needed, or he had indicated was needed 
by the resistance in Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you have some particular contributor in mind 
for a donation, with respect to these items? 

A No. 

Q What did you do after you got this information 
about the cost of these two types of items? 



A I told Spitz. 

Q Then what did you do? 

A Nothing. 

Q What did Spitz do? 



UNMSIFIED 



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I don't know. 

Did you seek contributions for these two items? 

I didn't. 

Do you know if anyone in NEPL did? 

Yes. 

Who? 

Cliff Smith. 

From whom did he seek contributions? 

K 
Mrs. Patty BecX- 



When did this occur? 

On or about the 18th of October. 

Did you discuss these items with Mr. Smith? 

I do not recall. 

K 

Do you know how Mrs . Bec^ was selected as a 

potential contributor for these items? 

A No, I do not. 

Q But you know that Mr. Smith sought a contribution 
froa Mrs. Bec^? 

A Tea. 

Q Was that for both the missiles and the radios? 



No. 



Which? 



The missiles. 



NCUSSIFIED 



How do you know that he sought a contribution from 



her? 



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375 



A I don ' t know how to answer that . 

Q Well, did he tell you? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. Channell also tell you? 

A I can't recall if he mentioned it. 

Q But you recall Mr. Smith told you? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you discuss it with Mrs. Becy^ 

A No. 

Q So at least one source of information was Mr. Smith? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Smith sought a contribution in a 
telephone conversation with Mrs . Bec)r? 

A No. 

Q Do you know if it was in a face-to-face meeting? 

A Yes. 

Q Whar« did that occur? 

A In the Hay Adams Hotel. 

Q Do you know if anyone else was present? 

A I do not know. 

I'W. McGOUGH: Did you say when this place? Did you 
say when? 

THE WITNESS: Yes, 



iftBWD 



BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Did Mrs. BecK make a contribution to acquire SAM 



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misailas? 

A Yas. 

Q How much did sha contribute? 
A $44,000. 

Q Would that ba for two missiles? 
A Yas. 

Q Did Mr. Smith tell you that? 
A Would you clarify the question? 
Q Yes. Did Mr. Smith tell you that Hrs. BecK had 
made a contribution of $44,000 for two missiles, or to 
acquire two missiles? 
A No. 

How did you learn that? 

I think from the Accounting Department. 

Who was that? 

I don't renembar who was there at the time. 



Well, now did you learn from the Accounting 
DepATtmant that Hrs. Bec/( had made a contribution of a 
specific amount? 

A Yes. 

Q Did they inform you of the purpose for which that 
amount had bean contributed? -. 

A No. 

Q Where did yoy a^fste t^M J%>i4^l#>*^ from Mr. Smith? 

A Yes. 




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UNCLASSIFIED 



378 



Q Did she make this contribution in cash? 

A Check. 

Q Check -- not in stock, but in currency, in effect? 

A Yes. 

Q Who else was solicited for a contribution for SAM 
missiles? 

A I do not know. 

Q Mrs. Becii is the only individual you know about? ( 

A Yes . 

Q Who was solicited for a contribution for radios? 

A I do not recall. 

Q Now, there is another note on that page that reads 
"leaks down there." What does that refer to? 

A I do not recall. 

Q Was that something Colonel North told you? 

A Yes. 

Q What does the word "leaks' in that context mean? 

A I do not recall. 

g was it press leaks? 

A I do not recall. 

Q Turning to the notes dated December 9, 1985. 

A Yes . 

Q There is an entry at the top, "Green: Paul 

Pressler, " p-R-E-S-S-L-E-R.^ _ wha^ jdoes^that^efe^to? 

A I do not rec^ 



:<-E-R. what does that refer t 

UNCUSSIRED 



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Tiitiiiim C 2000] 



ONCUSSIHED 



379 



Q Who is Paul Pressler? 

A I do not know. 

Q Do you know whare you got the name? 

A I don't. 

Q That is your handwriting? 

A It is. 

Q Turning to the next page in this volume, the notes 
dated December 16, 198S — before we turn to that page, 
however, I have on other question on the page we were just 
looking at, December 9. 

There is an entry toward the bottom that reads, 
"Barbara Studley * Singlaub donor." would you explain that 
entry? 

A Yes . This is meant to indicate that she is a 
prospect for us, and that is to say she is a Singlaub 
contributor. 

Q Where did you get her naoie? 

A From Colonel North. 

Q Did you know who she was? 

A Hell, I saw her but I did not meet her. 

Q What did you understand her position to be? 

A Position? 

Q Tes. Her occupation, her position with an 



organization? 

A I had no idea. 



UNCUSSIHED 



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Q You had no idea? 

A No. 

Q Where did you see her? 

A In the Hay Adams Hotel. 

Q Did Colonel North identify her aa a Singlaub donor? 

A Yes. 

Q What else did he say about her? 

A That is all that I recall. 

Q Did he say how much she had donated to General 
Singlaub? 

A Well, he may have; I don't recall. 

Q Do you recall if he indicated any approximate 
amount, or if he indicated she was a significant donor? 

A Yes. A significant donor. 

Q Okay. Was that occasion when you saw her, with 
Colonel North present with you, was that on or about December 
9, 1985? 

A I do not recall. 

Q It was before then, because you made these notes on 
or about December 9; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Would it have been within a period of a few weeks 
before then? 



Yes. 



UNCUSSIRED 



All right. Now turning to the next page, which I 



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referred to a minute ago, dated December 16, 1985, which is 
identified at the bottom 28451. This is your handwriting, I 
take it? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And are these notes you made on or about December 
16, 1985? 

A Yes . 

Q Now, the first line says, "1986 goal, $12.7 
million, " as I interpret the writing. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A This is our attempt at long-range planning. 

Q Is that your fundraising goal for 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q You say, "This is our attempt at long-range 
planning." Is this the attempt of you and Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q Does this reflect a discussion that you had with 
Mr. Channell? 



Yes. 



Anyone 



•"ONWSSIFIED 



Now, the next line is "One, Nicaragua/Green, 



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ONCUSSIFIED 



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$7 million by May." What does that rafar to? 

A For the direct aid to the Freedom Fighters, we 
wanted to raise $7 million by May. 

Q Was that any particular type of aid? 

A No, just direct aid. 

Q Any sort of direct aid? 

A Right . 

Q What is the significance of the phrase 
"Nicaragua/Green"? 

A It is just to differentiate it from the next item. 

Q Does that indicate that Colonel North was to 
determine how this aid was to be distributed? 

A No. 

Q What was Colonel North's role, then, with respect 
to this direct aid for Nicaragua? 

A To give briefings. 

Q Well, ha also had a role in the distribution of the 
aid, did he not? 

A Well, not as far as we knew. 

Q What did you understand was happening to the funds 
that you were transferring to Mr. Miller's organizations? 

A What was my understanding? 

Q Yes. 

A About what was happenin^?^ 

Q Yes. 



SussinED 



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A They were being given directly to the Freedom 
Fighters. 

Q And who was determining how those funds were being 
distributed? 

A Rich Miller. 

Q Did you understand Colonel North had any role in 
that? 

A I didn't know. 

Q You didn't know one way or the other? 

A Right. 

Q At that time? 

A Right. 

Q Now, Item Two reads, "Nicaragua, public diplomacy, 
S3 million. " Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What do you mean by "Nicaragua, public diplomacy? 

A Hell, that is our Public Diplomacy Program, our 
program of press relations and speakers going around in 
different areas, and so on. 

Q Is that what later was known as the — 

A Central American Freedom Program. 

Q — CAFP? 

A Yes. 

Q And was that_related_to_legi8lation pending in the 
Congress? 



s tnat related to legxsij 

UNCLASSinED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



384 



A I believe it was. Yes. I am just trying to 
remember this particular time. Yes, I think it was. 

Q Now, the third item is "Elections, 1.4 million,' 
and you have under there "$750,000, three independent 
expenditures, $400,000 expenses, and $300,000 contributions.' 
What do those entries refer to? 

A Those are the amounts of money we wanted to raise 
for each of those categories. 

Q What is "three independent expenditures"?. 
A Well, we wanted to target — 

MS. LUBIN: May I ask, first, does this have 
anything to do with Nicaragua? 
THE WITNESS: No. 

MS. LUBIN: I don't think it is within the scope. 
MR. FRYMAN: Well, we can take a break and get the 
resolution. I thought we went over that the last time, 
Elaine. You raised the same point, and we concluded this is 
an appropriate line of questioning. 

MS. LUBIN: My recollection of the resolution was 
that it said about any activity on electioning that had to do 
with Nicaragua, and it did not say any activity with 
elections. 

I will be glad to let_^it ^o^^ 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Did the election activity referred to here relate 




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385 



to Nicaragua in any way? 
A No. 

Q What was the criteria for selecting the campaigns 
that you would be involved in? 
A That was unclear. 

Q So it could have been related to Nicaragua? 
MS. LUBIN: He said it wasn't. 
THE WITNESS: No. 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, he said it was also unclear, sc 
I think I am entitled. 



^ 



MS. LUBIN: I am sorry. I don't think hie tBOTwnity 
- that you orderrf^ extends beyond your mandate. i 
don't think your mandate extends to these questions. I am 
going to have a problem with it. We can put it off. You can 
wait until the end and put them in writing, but we are going 
to have a problem with that area. 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, I think when the witness answers 
that it is unclear how an election was selected, it is an 
appropriate follow-up question. 

MS. LUBIN: I disagree, and I am going to instruct 
him not to answer. 

MR. FRYMAN: All ri-ght. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Now, Item Four .^,s_ ISPI _ead jjg Aa rf'iifa^ • " What does 

that refer to? 



iifiiffism 



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• CSottl. N £ 25 

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ONClASSinED 



386 



- A A public education program that we wanted to start 
on the subject of SDI . 

Q That is the Strategic Defense Initiative? 

A Yes. 

Q That is conunonly known as "Star Wars"? Is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Item Five reads, "Bush, entire year, $1 million." 
What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to have a program of what we called "Bush 
Forums," to have Vice President Bush speak at a number of 
private gatherings that we would arrange around the United 
States — on foreign policy topics, not political. 

Q How was that related, if it was, to Nicaragua? 

A It wasn't. 

Q Turning to the next page of notes, which are dated 
January 6, 1986; are those notes in your handwriting? 

A Yea. 

Q Were those notes made on or about January 6, 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q About the fourth line down, there is a line that 
begins, "Sacher," S-A-C-H-E-R-, Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Would you read that line? 

A mW tVft' ■"Stf'iti^^^itt'Ur*" update from Rich," and 



mmm 



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then in parenthesis it says, '(B-roll plans).' 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Well, Fred Sacher was a contributor to the Central 
American Freedom Program and, specifically, we used a good 
deal of his money for making films. And we wanted to get an 
update from Rich Miller on how the films were used in B-roll 
footage, which is broadcasting over — in short, it is a news 
release over the air. 

Q All right. Now, there is another entry farther 
down on that page that reads, "Ask Bunker about stock," and 
then there is a check mark by that. What does that refer to? 

A This is about the stock that he contributed to us. 
I am sorry — the stock that he — no, I am wrong. I don't 
recall. I don't recall. 

Q Did Bunker contribute stock? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Old he contribute stock to anybody that you are 
aware of? 

A Not that I an aware of. 

Q Is this a note you made of a conversation with Mr. 
Channell? 

A I don't recall that.either. 

Q Now, the check mark by that line, is that your 
check mark? 

A Yea 



.. IMIASSIFIED 



580 



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388 



Q What is the significance of placing a check mark by 
a line such as that? Does that indicate you performed the 
item indicated? 

A Generally. 

Q So does that indicate that you ask Bunker about the 
stock? 

A 

Q 



I do not recall. 

Now, we talked earlier about a contribution that 
Mr. Hunt made to NEPL, which was in the form of two checks 
for $237,500, in 1985, and then it turned out that one of 
those checks Mr. Hunt wanted to treat as a loan. 

A Yes. 

Q Then I believe in 1986 one of those checks — or 
the loan was repaid, and then he, in turn, made a contribution 
in approximately the same amount as the amount that was 
repaid. 

A Y«l. 

Q You are familiar with that? 

A Yea. 

Q Now, are you familiar, are you aware of any other 
contribution of any sort that Mr. Hunt made to NEPL or any of 
Mr. Channell's organizations ?-. 

A I would have to check my records . 

Q well, what do you recall? 

A I don't recall any other contributions, but there 



:oras . 

UNCLASSIFIED 



581 



89 



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90tlT9t9 CO.. MC 
*t. NI 25 




'*-*»3»i 



389 



may be. I would have to ask Accounting. 

Q Do you recall any contribution that Mr. Hunt ever 
fliade in the form of stock? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall any contribution that he made in the 
form of stock that was related to Nicaragua, but did not go 
directly to one of Mr. Channell's organizations? 

A No. 

Q At the top of that page, there is a note, "Lisa at 
E.F. Mutton." What does that refer to? 

A That is where we have — it is our brokerage house, 
and Lisa is a secretary to our broker. 

Q Under the entry, "Ask Bunker about stock, " there is 
a line to "Call Sulka in Philadelphia." What does that refer 
to? 

A I don't know. I don't recall. 

Q Do you understand Sulka to be a menswear supply 
store? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you think it refers to some purchase of menswear? 



Yes, 



Nothing other th 



No. 



DiUSSIFIED 



Q Turning to the next page in this volume, which is 
dated January 8, 1986, and which has the control number 



582 



07 C Sam. N t 



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25 



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390 



27704; does this page contain your handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q And were those notes made on or about January 8 , 



1986? 



Yes. 



A 

Q Now, at the top, there are several notes under a 
line that reads, "January 20-February 5." Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q One of those reads, "Green's $400,000 on Tuesday." 
what does that refer to? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Well, let's start with the first one, then, which 
reads, "Bunker's $237,500 on Monday." What does that refer 
to? 

A I don't recall that either. 

Q Well, does that indicate that you needed that 
amount of money for Bunker on Monday? 

A I just don't recall. I am sorry. 

Q Who gave you this information? Or to phrase it 
another way, did you make these notes in connection with a 
conversation that you had with Mr. Channell? 

A I juat don't recall-.. 

Q Did you make these notes in connection with a 
conversation you had with Colonel No^^^^ 

A I don't recall that. 



itolFIED 



583 



ed391 



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IINCUSSIHEO 



391 



Q To the left there is the" name "Sasakawa, ' 
S-A-S-A-K-A-W-A. Who is Sasakawa? 

A He is the wealthiest man in Japan. 
Q What does the "87" refer to there? 
A His age. 

Q Do you know the source of writing his name on this 
page? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the source? 

A An employee of Public Management Institute. 
Q Gave you the name? 
A Yes. 

Q And is that true of the other names that are 
written under Sasakawa? 
A No. 

What does "G«ne in Philadelphia" refer to? 

It is an advertising person. 

What was the reason for contacting him? 

Ha were constantly looking for new advertising 



Q 
A 

Q 
A 

people 
Q 
A 



Who gave you his name? 
I don't recall. 



Q There is a note to "Ask Jeff_iell. 

A Yes. 

Q What is the reason for that note? 



I a note to "Ask Jeff Bel 

UNClASSra 



584 



MT C lOHI. N I 



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392 



A I don't know. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is dated January 

13, 1986; is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Were those notes made on or about January 13, 19 86? 

A Yes. 

Q Toward the bottom, there is the phrase "Green 
shopping list due 1/15/86," and then there is a circle around 
that, and various lines drawn out from the circle, which 
appear to be indicated to attract attention to that item. 
Did you draw the circle and make those lines? 

A Yes. 

Q Was that intended to highlight that entry for 
yourself? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason for doing that? 

A It needed to be a high priority item. 

Q What was the item? WHat did 'Green shopping list 
due 1/15/86" refer to? 

A We needed a list of items that the Freedom Fighters 



needed . 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 



For what purpose? 



]?■ 




For fundraising. 

And did you get such a list from Colonel North? 

No. 



585 



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imjum avomaa eo.. mc 
»7 C Sat« N E 25 



UNcussra 



393 



Q Why not? 

A I don't know the answer. 

Q Did you ask him for one? 

A Yes. 

Q But you never got such a list? 

A Right. 

Q Are you aware that Colonel North had lists which he 
showed to various potential contributors at different times? 

A Well, I saw the one that he gave to Bunker Hunt, of 



course 
Q 

him? 

A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 



Did he give it to Bunker Hunt or did he show it to 



Well, good question. 

In any case, you saw hiiD show a list to Bunker Hunt! 

Yes. 

Did you see him show a list to anyone else? 

Not that I can recall at the moment. 

Did you have discussions with Colonel North about 
devaloping such a shopping list? 
A Yes. 
Q Did you have discussions with him about the types 



of itens to be included on th^ l.ist? 
A No. i\%)i^ 
Q You just said you wanted a list? 



ifUSSIFlEO 



Yes. 



586 



ad394 

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xBI — umilll CO.. MC. 
C imn NI 2S 



UNCLASSra 



394 



Q You didn't care what was on it? 

A That's right. 
' Q Did you giv« him a dollar figure that you wanted 
the list to total? 

A Not at this time. 

Q Did you later? 

A Earlier. 

Q Earlier. Oh, that was in connection with the Hunt 
list? 

A Yes. 

Q At this point, you just wanted a general list of 
items that you could use to present to your potential 
contributors? 

A That is right. 

Q Now, at the t op of that page, tt jg ^^ is the en try 
"Green: " and then' 
then a line is driven through 

What does that refer to? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Was that a note you made during a conversation with 
Colonel North? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Was it a note you made during a conversation with 
Mr. Channel 1? 

A I don't recall. 




ONCLASSIFIED 



587 



ed395 



M> C SOMI. N 1. 



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2 

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25 



UNCLASSIHED 



395 



Q Directing your attention to the next line that 
reads, "Fawn: status on White House staff briefing," what 
does that refer to? 

A I don't recall that either. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is dated 1/27/86, 
which has control number 79114; is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Were those notes made on or about January 27, 1986? 

A Yes . 

Q At the top there is a note, "Harper, referred by 
Secretary Shultz." Would you explain that entry? 

A Yes. Colonel North told me that — I have referred 
to this before. 

Q Right . 

A Colonel North told me that Secretary Shultz -- I am 
sorry. Colonel North told me that Hr. Harper — we would be 
receiving a call from a Mr. Harper at our office, and he was 
b«ing referred to us through Secretary Shultz, and he wanted 
to contribute directly to the Freedom Fighters . 

Q Right . 

A And this was a nmtyu ta^ie ^QfWM^ |yt|w iW iookout for 
that call when it arrived. l){|l|L.nUuiriLU 

Q Who did you understand that Mr. Harper was? 

A Someone who had come up to the Secretary in some 

function and said he wanted to give directly to the Freedom 



588 



M7 C lawi. N E 



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. nc 

25 



UNCUSSIHED 



396 



Fighters . 

Q Are those phone numbers above Hr. Harper's name, 
are those Mr. Harper's phone numbers? 

A No. 

Q What are those numbers? 

A My father's phone number. 

Q Did you receive a call from Mr. Harper? 

A I didn't, no. 

Q Did anyone at NEPL, to your knowledge? 

A Not that I know of. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Harper made a contribution to 
NEPL? 

A I do not know. 

Q Now, under Mr. Harper's name, there is an entry, 
"Richard Pina's logic,* and under that, 'National security 
matter." What does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
I don't recall. 

Q Do you know the basis for that note, i.e., was that 
a conversation with Mr. Channel!? 

A I don't recall. 

Q To the right of that entry, there is a reference to 
"Dinner," and under that, "Elliott Abraras, Rachel Abrams, 
Davis, David Fischer and Martin Artiano." Was there a dinner 
with that group of individuals? 



UNCUSSIHED 



589 



ed397 



M7 CSsim. Nt. 



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2 
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5 

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25 



it. 



UNCLASSIHED 



397 



A NO. 

Q What does that entry refer to? 

A It means we wanted to have one. 

Q But you did not? 

A But we did not, no. 

Q Did you try to arrange such a dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q How? 

A By asking David Fischer and Marty Artiano to arrange 



Q Do you know why the dinner did not occur? 
A No. 

MR. McGOUGH: Could I interject here for just a 
second and go back to Richard Plna. 

Do you know who richard Pina is? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. McGOUGH: Who is he? 

THE WITNESS: He is a — I don't know what you call 
hia — consultant with — 

MR. McGOUGH; Cassidy and Associates? 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. Cassidy and Associates. 

MR. McGOUGH: Under. what circjiras^ances did you come 
in contact with Mr. Pina? 

THE WITNESS: Rich Miller introduced us to him. 

MR. McGOUGH: For what purpose? 



rnaer. wnat cxrcurastances < 

UNCLASSIRED 



590 



1 

2 
3 
4 
5 

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«NCLASSIflED 



398 



THE WITNESS: To help us in the — to see .if he 

could help us in the Central American Freedom Program. 

MR. McGOUGH: Did you ever have any discussions 

with Mr. Pina regarding supplies to the Contras? 

THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 

MR. McGOUGH: Anything other than public aspects of 

the Contra effort? 

THE WITNESS: No. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Finally, on that page, on the lower right-hand 

side, there is a reference, "5:00 p.m. Tuesday, deadline for 

private RR meeting." what does that refer to? 

A I don't know. 

Q You have no recollection of that? 

A I have no recollection. 

Q Under that there is a reference, 'Receipts to Fred 

Sacher ASAP," which I take it means "as soon as possible." 

A Right. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A I don't recall that either. 

Q Finally, on that page, what is the reference to 

"liquid electroplexing" and 'Calleon Arsenide"? 

f 
A Marty Artiano had an investment that he wanted us 

to see "us" is Spitz Channeil and myself, to see. whether 

iwe knew anyone who would be interested in a small venture, 



591 



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24 
tco. nc 

25 



UHClftSSinED 



399 



start-up. Nothing to do with Nicaragua. 

Q All right. 

MR. FRYMANS Let's take a break for a few minutes. 
[Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Directing your attention, Mr. Conrad, to the notes 
in this volume dated January 29, 1986, Page 37260 at the 
bottom. There are notes at the top, "Friday, A.M. Green 
meetings," and then "10:00, 10:30, and 11:00." Oo these 
notes refer to proposed private meetings with Colonel North 
in connection with the White House briefing at the end of 
January 1986? 

A Yes . May I also add something? ■ 

Q Yas. 

A You asked a question earlier today about whether I 
recalled — I don't remember how you exactly worded the 
question, but did I know that Colonel North was directing the 
flow of the money tha^|1l4^i^EiLvartfM'bliiBk^Ml«r. 

Q Right . 



MBSIFIED' 



A And, as I said, I don't recall, but there is an 
incident that I recall that mjy be useful in that connection, 
which was at the July 9th, 1985, meeting at the Hay Adajns 
Hotel, and Colonel North — we were concerned that the money 
would get not directly to the — to be used directly by the 



592 



ed400 



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8 

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IS 
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25 



UNCLASSinED 



400 



Freedom Fighters, but would go to the retirement accounts of 
the Freedom Fighter leaders . 

Some of our contributors were concerned about this 
issue. He said — Colonel North said, "I'll make sure that 
it is directly used for the purpose for which it is given, ' 
which doesn't directly mean that he controlled it. And we 
didn't inquire what he meant by that, but that is about the 
closest thing I can recall. 

Q Had he suggested that you transmit the funds 
through Mr. Channell — through Mr. Miller's organization? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. Turning to the next page of notes, 
which is also dated 1/29/86, which has the control number 
37261. Are these notes relating to the program at the White 
House briefing in late January 19867 

A Yes. 

Q Now, the next page of notes in the volume dated 
February 4, 1986, which has the control number 27406; this, 
again, is your handwriting, I take it? 



Yes. 



And th 



Yes. 



WmMlED 



r about February 4? 



Q The third line refers to "Elliott Abrams ' CA trip," 
and then "Eli Jacobs meeting on February 6." what does that 
refer to? 



593 



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uNcussra 



401 



A W« wanted to take Elliott Abrams on a trip to 
California to see some contributors, and Eli Jacobs was a 
contributor of ours who was a friend of Elliott Abrams, or 
they knew each other quite well, something; and we wanted to 
arrange a meeting between them, I believe, on 2/6. 
Q What developed? 

A Well, nothing happened on the California trip, and 
I don't recall whether Mr. Jacobs had a meeting on the 6th. 

Q Did you arrange for Mr. Abraaa to meet with any of 
your contributors or potential contributors? 
A No. 

Did you attempt to? 
I didn't, no. 

Do you know if anyone else did? 
It is possible, but I don't know. 
But to your knowledge, he did not meet with the 
contributor! ? 
A NO. 

Q Now, "CA" in that line definitely refers to 
California? 



Yes. 



Not Centra 



No. 



mmm 



Q Now, there is another entry on that page which 
reads, "Green shopping list." Do you see that? 



594 



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KUSSinED 



402 



A Yes. 

Q Is that the same shopping list that you referred to 

earlier? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, there is a line dravm through that entry on 
this page. What is the significance of the line drawn 
through it? 

A Well, I have raised the issue. 

Q With Colonel North? 

A I don't recall with whom I raised it. 

Q But that line drawn through that entry does not 
mean that you received such a list? 

A Right . 

Q All it means is that you raised the issue of such a 
list with someone; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, on the next page, which Is dated February 6, 
1986, and has the control number 27672; that, again, is your 
handwriting, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And those are your notes made on or about February 
6th? 

A Yes. 

Q There is an entry there which reads 'Human Rights 
Report: Call Elliott Abrans ASAP.' What does that refer to? 



miAssro 



595 



CSovR. N C 
t\mtmm C 10002 



UNCLASSIRED 



403 



A I don't recall. 

Q Is this a note that somebody told you to call 
Abrams about a Hunan Rights Report? 

A Yes. 

Q But you don't recall who told you that? 

A I don't recall. 

Q All right. Turning to the next page, which is 
dated February 20, 1986; are those notes in your handwriting, 
made on or about that date? 

A Yes. 

Q The first item reads "$1 million from bank, get 
president of the bank." What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to meet the president of the bank where 
we banked, which is Palmer Bank. I don't remember whether 
the $1 million is a loan or a contribution. I think it was a 
loan. 

Q You think it might have been a $1 million contri- 
bution from the Palmer Bank? 

A I think it is a loan. 

Q What was the purpose of the loan? 

A I don't recall. 

Q There is another sntry on that page that reads 
"Ross Perot, 3/10/86 meeting." What does that refer to? 

A It is vhar _tr^ .Mmid. c° have a meeting w£th Ross 
Perot. 



UW 




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UNCIASSIRED 



404 



Q Is this a note of a conversation with Mr. Channell? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Did you have such a meeting? 

A No. 

Q Did you have any contact with Mr. Perot? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Because he wasn't interested in the Central 

American Freedom Program. 

Q How did you know that? 

A Colonel North told me. 

Q Did he tell you how he knew? 

A He either spoke with him directly or Bud McFarlane 
spoke with him directly. 

Q Do you know which? 

A I don't recall. 

Q But it was one of those two? 

A Taa. 

Q And Colonel North relayed to you that Mr. Perot was 
not interested in contributing with respect to Central 
America? 

A Right . 

Q And you dropped^ the^ij^^ect^^that point? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, the last entry refers to "House and Senate 





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"WSXIfJffl 



405 



targats for ACT contributions." "ACT," I take it, is 
American Conservative Trust? 
A Yes . 

Q Are the seven names specified there, are those the 

targets? 

A Yes. 

Q How were the targets selected? 

MS. LUBIN: Does this have to do with Nicaragua? 
THE WITNESS: No, it does not. 
MS. LUBIN: I will make the same comment I did 
before. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q All right. Let me put the question then, was the 
issue of Nicaragua a criteria, in any way, in selection of 
these individuals as targets? 
A No. 

Q Turning to the notes dated March 4, 1986, which is 
Page 34964; are these your notes made on or about that date? 
A Tea . 

Q At the bottom, there is various entries. Do those 
refer to bank accounts, Mr. C^nj 
A Yes. 

Q Would you explain what those are? 
A Well, I would have to double check with our 
financial records. I can't recall where these accounts were. 




598 



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ItUJR IMP U II H II I CO.. nc 
MTCSori. NE 25 

~ii>n|niii C 20001 



UNCLASSIFIED 



406 



but they are bank accounts. 

Q Well, NEPL Number 1 is indicated to be a general 
account; is that correct? 

A Right . 

Q NEPL Number 2 is called the "Sacher Account," and 

that has paren "(CAFP)" which I gather stands for the Central 
American Freedom Program; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Why was that account called the Sacher Account? 

A I think because he started it, he made the first 
contribution to it. 

Q Now, over to the side, "CAFP" is indicated to be 
"Nicaragua II"? 

A Right. 

Q What is the reason for the characterization of that 
as "Nicaragua II'? 

A Well, I don't know how to answer that question. 
Spitz' nomenclature. 

Q Than continuing. Number 3 is indicated to be the 
George S. Patton Account, and that is indicated to be 
"Nicaragua I." Is that^ 

A Right. 

Q Why is that account called the Patton Account? 

A Because Patton gave the first contribution to it. 

Q To that account? 




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vmssm 



A Yes. 

Q Than there is also a note that "Nicaragua I = 

Green. • Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Does that indicate that that account is for the 
direct aid for Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q The other account, Number II, or the Sacher 
Account, is for expenditures for Nicaragua II or the Central 
American Freedom Program or, as you have described it, "the 
Public Diplomacy Program"? 

A Yes. 

Q That is the distinction you are making here in 
these notes? 

A Yes . v_ 

Q Now, is this information that was given to you by 
someone else? 

A Tea. 

Q Who was that person? 

A Mr. Channel 1. 

Q Mr. Channell. 

A These distinctions existed in his brain. 

Q Did they also exist in the day-to-day operations of 



NEPL? 



A Only vaguely. U 



INCLASSIFIED 



600 



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imfn Accscicn 



408 



Q Only vaguely. At the top, there are references to 
"Future of Freedom Sentinel and CAFP," and various numbers. 
What do those references mean? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
I don't recall. 

Q Turning to the notes dated March 17, 1986, which 
has your control number 26971; is this your handwriting made, 
on or about that date, Mr. Conrad? 

A Yes . 

Q Are these notes made by you from a conversation 
with someone else? 

A Yes. 

Q Who was that person? 

A Mr. Channell. 

Q Is this page, in effect, a sort of summary budget, 
or cash-flow analysis? 

A Tes . 

Q At the top you list various expenses, and does that 
indicate that an anticipated expense for David Fischer would 
be $50,000? 

A Yes. 

Q Was that for the Month of March? 

A I don't know. 

Q Was it for a month? 

A I don't know. 



ONaSSSIflEI) 



601 



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UNCLASSIHED 



409 



Q Than "Mr. Lichtenstein, $17,000," is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q "Edie Frazer, $8,000"? 

A Yes. 

Q "Bruce Cameron, $10,000"? 

A Yes. 

Q And the "Edelman Organization, $15,000"? 

A Yes. 

Q But you don't know the period of time covered by 
those amounts? 

A Right. 

Q Under that, there are references to checking 
accounts and the Hutton account and shares of Gerber stock. 
Is that a summary of the cash and stock that was on hand at 
that point in time? 

A Yes. 

Q Than you have a 'Due in, $100,000 from Sacher," and 
$237,500 from Bunker.' Does that amount from Bunker relate 
to the repayment of the loan, and then a further contribution 
that we have referred to before? 

A Yes. 

Q Under that there is'- a reference to a 'Green grant 
of $500,000." What is that? ||§**J 

A Direct aid to the Freedom Fighters . 

Q Do you know what it related to? Do you know what 



yiUSSIFIED 



602 



1 

2 

3 

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llNWSSIflED 



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i tarns 7 

A NO. 

Q Is that Just Mr. Channell telling, you that there 
would be a 5500,000 withdrawal, going for direct aid? 

A Yes. 

Q Which you referred to here as a "Green grant." 

A Right. 

Q Was that going to Mr. Miller? 

A Yes. 

Q The next page of notes, dated March 25, 1986, are 
those handwritten notes made by you, Mr. Conrad, on or about 
that date? 

A Yes. 

Q In the middle o£ that page, there is a note, "Raise 
$339,000." I take it, it refers to raise — "$339,000," and 
then an arrow, and then it says, "Give $239,000." what does 
that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Hell, it is a sunnary of how much money we have 
raised and how much money we are supposed to — give to direct 
aid to the Freedom Fighters. 

Q Does that mean NEFL- retained the remaining $100,000, 
or the plan was to retain | 

A Yes. 

Q For expenses and other operating costs? 



IffilHED 



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A Yes. 

Q Then there is a note to "Give 5225,000 to Green." 

A Yes. 

Q That relates to the specific items that are 
identified there that were raised from Barbara Newington, 
Ellen Garwood and Bill O'Neal; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know the types of equipment or supplies that 
were to be acquired with this grant of money to Green, or 
Colonel North? 

A No. 

Q There is a reference on the next line to "lunch 
with LLn)i8 Kojelis," K-0-J-E-L-I-S, "Mitch Daniels and 
Elliott Abrams . " Did such a lunch occur? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A I don't know. 

Q There is also a reference under that to "Ollie to 
Dallas on Thursday. * Does that refer to Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he make such a trip? 



No. 



Why not? 



I don't know. 



UNCIASSIHED 



To the right of that entry are the names Bill 



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412 



Carls, BunJcar and Mrs. King, was Colonel North supposed to 
meet with those individuals in Dallas? 

A Yes. 

Q But he did not meet with them, to your knowledge? 

A Right. 

Q Above that, there is a reference to calling David 
Fischer regarding Wesley Smith. What does that relate to? 

A I think about getting a letter of recommendation 
for Wesley Smith from the President. 

Q Is this with regard to adnisaion to law school? 

A Yes. 

Q Toward the bottom of the page, there is an entry, 
"Green, list of names and addresses of Saudi Arabian 
briefing," it appears to be "attendees, and background 
literature on the issue." Does that entry relate, in any 
way, to Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is your control 
nuab«r page 37275; is that page your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Is there a date at the top? Can you read the date? 

A 3/31/86. 

Q Did you put the date there _al80?_ 

A Yes. 

Q Did you make the notes on or about that date? 



it the date tnere aiso/ 

UNCIASSIRED 



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A Yea. 

Q Now, does the first line read, "Planes,' 

■P-L-A-N-E-S, "dollars"? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Money for planes . 

Q What types of planes? 

A I have forgotten. 

Q Is this planes for use in the military activity in 
Nicaragua? 

A It is planes for use in Nicaragua. 

Q What sort of use? 

A My understanding was, they were for delivery of 
material . 

Q To whom? 

A The Freedom Fighters. 

Q What type of material? 

A Humanitarian aid. 

Q And military aid? 

A Wasn't discussed. 

Q Underneath that, there is a line "Revenue," and an 
entry, 'Barbara Newington, $141,000 and Ellen Garwood, 
$131,000." Does that Indicate they gave those amounts £or 



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ONCUSSIflED 



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the purpos* of acquiring planes? 

A Yes. 

Q And that totaled $272,000? 

A Right. 

Q These planes were being purchased for that purpose; 
is that correct? 

A I don't recall. 

Q In some manner or other, planes were being acquired 
for use in Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q And you are not sure of the method of acquiring 
them? 

A Right . 

Q And do the entries below that Indicate that of the 
$272,000, $225,000 was being transferred to IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q And the balance was being retained in the NEPL 



account? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Q Turning back to the preceding page, the notes dated 
March 25, 1986, on that page there is a reference to a 
contribution from Mrs. Newing'ton of $142,000, and then a 
contribution from Mrs. Garwood of $132,000; and on the March 
31 notes, it is $141,000 from Mrs. Newington and $131,000 
from Mrs. Garwood. 



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Do the refercncas on tho»« two pagas refer to the 
same contributions, to your understanding, or are those 
different contributions? 

A The same. 

Q What is the reason for the difference in amount? 

A Spitz Channell. 

Q You mean one of them is just a mistake? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the notes dated April 7, 1986, there is 
a reference in the third line, "Bill Casey, 4:00 p.m. 
Thursday." Is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you make those notes on or about that date? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that entry refer to? 

A Spitz Channell was due to have a meeting with Bill 



Casey. 



Q Nho set that meeting up? 

A I don't recall. 

Q What was the purpose of the meeting? 

A I don't recall. 

Q How did you know about the meeting? 

A Spitz told me. 

Q Were you to attend? 

A I can't recall. 



ONCLASSIRED 



608 



ilHSilFiEB 



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Q Anyone else, other than Channell? 

A I don ' t know that . 

Q Did the meeting occur? 

A I believe so, yes. 

Q Did you attend? 

A No. 

Q Do you know if anyone other than Channell attended? 

A I am not sure. 

Q Where did the meeting occur? 

A I don't know. 

Q How do you know it happened? 

A Spitz said. 

Q What did he tell you about it? 

A He said that Mr. Casey was un-understandable. 

Q Un-understandable? 

A Yes. 

Q About what? 

A He wasn't specific as to the topic. 

Q Was the topic Nicaragua? 

A I don't know. 

Q Did Mr. Fischer arrange this meeting? 

A I don't recall. 

Q DO you know if Mr. Artiano had anything to do with 



it? 



I don ' t know . 



UNCLASSIFIED 



609 



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mmmB 



417 



Q Did Mr. Channel 1 tell you anything about the 
meeting, other than Mr. Casey was un-understandable? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Was that Mr. Channell's phrase, "un-understand- 
able-? 

A No, it is mine. 

Q What was Mr. Channell's phrase? 

A I don't recall. 

Q In substance, it was that Mr. Casey had been a 
difficult person to talk to? 

A Yes. 

Q Had the meeting with Mr. Casey concerned Bunker 
Hunt? 

A I don't know. 

Q Look at the entries under that, Mr. Conrad, with 
respect to 'David,' and then there are various nanes, 
'Abranson, Poindexter, Hunt, Casey, Laxalt and Hick lunch." 
What do«8 that refer to? 

A Appointments that we wanted him to make, David 
Fischer. 

Q Was that an appointment of a group of those 
individuals or separata onea?"- 

A Separate appointments . 

Q Why did you need Mr. Fischer to make an appointment 
with Bunker Hunt? 



mmmm 



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418 



A I don't know. 

Q You and Mr. Channell had a prior relationship with 
Mr. Hunt, did you not? 

A Yes. 

Q So there was no reason to have Mr. Fischer set up a 
meeting with Mr. Hunt, was there? 

A I don't know what this entry refers to. 

Q Turning to your notes dated April 17, 1986, there 
is an entry at the top, 'Union League Club, 12:30 p.m., Bill 
0' Boyle." Does that indicate that you have a meeting with 
Mr. 0' Boyle set for April 17th? 

A I don't know the date. 

Q But that is a note about a meeting you have set 
with Mr. 0' Boyle at the Union League Club? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the notes dated July 14, 1986; actually, 
it is the second p«g« of notes with that date. The control 
numb«r at the bottom is 29975. Do you se« that? 

A Tea. 

Q There is a reference at the bottom to an 'ATAC 
conference in Septemb^i^ where Green will speak.' What does 
that refer to? 

A Well, we wanted to have a conference in September 
and we wanted to — sponsored by the Anti-Terrorism American 
Committee, and we wanted Colonel North to speak. cnH ••" -- 




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lailSSfflED 



419 



him to identify people who we should invite. 

Q What is the relation of that conference to 
Nicaragua? 

A None . 

Q It relates to another subject? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. Turning to the next page, July 22, 
1986; are those notes in your handwriting, made on or about 
that date? 

A Yes . 

Q At the top, there is a reference, "Green, travel, 
$100,000; food, $600,000." What does that refer to? 

A We wanted to allocate $100,000 for travel expenses 
and $600,000 for food. It is a projected budget. 

Q Wall, this is $100,000 for travel expenses for 
Colonel North? 

A I don't recall. 

Q What is the relationship between the identification 
•Gr««n, " which I gather refers to Colonel North — 

A Yes. 

Q — and the V*t-IX £i. S.IOJJ, £00 _Jpr^ travel and 
$600,000 for food? 

A Well, it is just that topic. Nicaragua what — 
Nicaragua Two, I think. I get the numbers confused. 

Q I an confused what "travel" refers to in this 



V^nc Pt $100,000 for tre 

IMSIFIED 



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UNCUSSIHED 



420 



context. Is this travel by Colonel North that you are 

I 

budgeting $00,000 for? 

A I am not positive. 

Q Did NEPL pay funds for travel by Colonel North? I 
believe you identified two occasions where NEPL paid. 

A Yes. 

Q I believe the visit to Mrs. Newington and the trip 
to Dallas, 1 believe. 

A Yes. 

Q Were there other occasions that you are aware of 
where NEPL paid for Colonel North's travel? 

A Not that I an aware of. 

Q But you are not clear whether this entry refers to 
travel expenses for Colonel North or for something else? 

A Right . 

Q It could refer to travel for Colonel North? 

A It could. 

Q Now, what about "food"? Could that be a food 
expense for Colonel North. 

A He would have to be a big eater. 

Q So it 

A No. 



•■"WHSSfflED 



Q What do you believe that refers to, then? 

A I believe it has to do with the Freedom Fighters. 

Q Supplies for the Freedom Fighters in Nicaragua? 



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ONCLASSinED 



421 



A Y«s. 

Q Now, turning to the notes dated October 3, 1986; 
are these notes in your handwriting, made on or about that 
date? 

A Yes. 

Q In the middle there, there is an entry, "List: 
Read and destroy, October 1, '85 through October 1, '86. " Is 
that your handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q Now, under that, there are five individuals' names 
and certain amounts. Is that, again, your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, there is an entry, "Bunker, " which I take it 
refers to Bunker Hunt — - 

A Yes. 

Q — and -$700,000." 

A Yes . 

g Does that indicate that Mr. Hunt made contributions 
of $700,000 in that one-yiux .oasiod?. 

A NO. .ip^ftJI 

Q It does not mean that. What does it indicate? 

A Spitz told ma to make up a list of contributions 
from contributors, but some of the amounts were to be not 
accurate, and he was giving me some of the nujnbers that he 
wanted me to put on the list. 




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OHCiiSSIFIED 



422 



Q Why would you mak* up a liat that included amounts 
that *wr« not accurata? 

A I had to sand it to somabody, but 1 have forgotten 
who. 

Q Why does it say, 'Read and destroy? 

A I was supposed to put a cover letter on it that 
said that this was confidential and "we don't have everybody 
permission to list all these things, so we want you to read 
the list and then tear it up.' 

Q Who was this letter to go to? 

A That is what I don't recall. 

Q And you were to include in there incorrect amounts 
from contributors? 

A Yes. 

Q Pursuant to direction from Kr. Channel 1? 

A T«S. 

Q But he didn't tell you why you were to do that? 

A Nell, maybe at the tine he did, but I don't recall 
now. 

Q Now, do you )cnow if Mr. Hunt contributed more or 
less than $700,000? 

A Less . 

Q Do you know if Mrs. Newington contributed more or 



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UNCUSSIRED 



423 



Q Do you know if Mr. Sacher contributed more or less 
than 5500,0007 

A I am not positive. Probably more. 

Q Do you know if Mr. and Mrs. Warm contributed more 
or less than $400,000? 

A I am not positive there either. I would have to 
look. 

Q But as to Mrs . Newington and Mr . Hunt , you are 
positive? 

A Yes . 

Q Toward the bottom of the page, there is a reference 
to a "letter to Ellen's attorneys." Is that Mrs. Garwood's 
attorneys? 

A Yes. 

Q Then there are descriptions, there are "food, 
medical supplies, transportation, logistical support, 
ambulance service.' What does that entry refer to? 

A Spitz wanted me to draft a letter to Ellen's 
attorney saying what we would use the money for that she had 
given, and these were the items that were supposed to be 
listed. 

Q And does that note ever to the left also relate to 



that? 



UNCLASSra 



'Public diplomacy until end of March, humanitarian 



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lU 



aid — " 

A "Aftsr April, continuing," — i guess "continuing." 

Q Now, do«8 this latter pertain to the tax deduct- 
ibility of Mrs. Garwood's contributions? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Was this letter in response to a request from Mrs . 

Garwood's attorneys? 

A I believe so. 

Q Did you send such a letter? 

A NO. 

Q Did you cause it to be sent? 

A No. 

Q Do you know if such a letter was sent? 

A Maybe; I don't know. 

Q Well, is this a note for you to arrange for such a 

letter to be sent? 

A I was supposed to draft it. 

Q Did you? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A It was just one of the things I didn't get to. 

Q Turning to the note's dated October 20, 1986; is 



that your handwriting, made on or about that date? 

, ! 

Q What are those notes? How would you describe those? 



Yes. 



, niaae on or aouuk v 

iCUSSIFIED 



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425 



A (Witness peruses document.) 
A planning document . 

Q Is this based on a discussior. with Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, that planning document, you break it down into 
two major headings, "NEPL" and "Western Goals." What is the 
dividing line of activities between those two organizations? 

A Well, I don't know how to answer that question. 

Q Let me phrase it another way, and maybe I can get 
into this . 

Under "Western Goals," you have "Item E. Three 
terrorism films." Is there some reason that is a project for 
Western Goals other than a project for NEPL? 

A Because it had a terrorism film before. 

Q Western Goals had? 

A Yes. 

Q Is there some reason that the Network America 
projects are projects for Western Goals, other than NEPL? 

A It was conceived of as a project for Western Goals 
^rom its very beginning. 

Q By Mr. Channell? 

A Yes . 

Q Did the Network America project relate in any way 
to Nicaragua? 

A No. 



OllASSinED 



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Mmmo 



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Q That was not to be a subject of the various radio 
and television spots? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Or at least that wasn't a principal focus? 

A Oh, certainly not. 

Q Now, Item F under Western Goals says, "European 
Worldwide Fundraiaing. " Why is that an entry with respect to 
Western Goals rather than NEPL? 

A Because Western Goals already had an European 
branch. Two European branches, actually. 

Q Was there to be worldwide fundraising with respect 
to NEPL, as well? 

A Yes. 

Q How was that to be handled? 

A Well, for NEPL projects, and this would be for 
Western Goala projects. 

Q Now the next page in this volume, Mr. Conrad, is 
dat«d — or rather has the identification number at the 
bottoa 33330. Whose hand%/riting is that? 

A pnris Llttledale. 

Was that document prepared jit _^urj^equest? 
Yes. 




UK! 

Would you describe that document? 

I asked him to analyze his contributions, the 



source of — let me see; this is complex. I told him to add 



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DNCIASSIFIED 



427 



up all the money he has received from all each of his | 

contributors, individually, over like the last year, or since | 

he had been there — I have forgotten. Then he was to ' 

identify, for each of the contributors, which method was used ' 

to contact those contributors the first time, in order that we ' 

I 
might determine how much money came from which first initial , 

contact, eventually, as it rolled out, and there are five 

different categories, which are listed there, one through I 

five. ! 

I 
Q Now, did you develop the five different categories? I 

A Yes . i 

I 

Q These were questions that you put to Mr. Littledale? '. 

A Yes. I 

Q Did you put these questions to all of the j 

fundraisers? i 

i 

A Yes . j 

I 
Q Then he supplied the answers? | 

i 
A Tea . 

Q Now, are the questions in your handwriting? 

A No. 

Q Did you dictate these, in effect, to Mr. Littledale 



and he wrote them down? 



UNCLASSIflED 



And then he filled in the answers? 



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Q Then that is his narrative conclusion under the 
questions? 

A Yes . 

Q His conclusion was that "the Green meeting is the 
single most effective way of obtaining contributors, and the 
Green meeting is the single most effecting fundraising tool." 
Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And you reviewed that conclusion of his? ' 

A Yes. 

Q Did you agree with that conclusion? 

A No. 

Q In what way did you disagree? 

A Well, I felt that, after reviewing all the data, 
not only his, that meetings in general were the — I mean he 
was dealing with limited data, so my sense of the question 
was that you needed to have meetings . 

The real thrust of this question is, "Should you 
have meetings or should you have cold-call telephoning? ' and 
it is very clear that meetings are infinitely better, whether 
they involve Green or Ronald Reagan. And he just has the 
experience of meetings that involve Colonel North. 

Q Turning to the next page in the book,_wh^ch__i_£ 
33331, is that your handwriting? 



re in the boo)c, which is 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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mxai ri» u n n i a co.. me. 
w> c Son. N E 2 5 

Widi^pga. D C 1000] 



iisiissife 



429 



Q Whose is that? 

A p(ris Littledale's. 

Q Are these, again, questions you put to him that he 
developed the answers for? 

A Yes. 

Q This is a part of the same analysis that also 
appears on 33330; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the notes headed "Movember 18, '86, ■ at 
the top, "Cliff Smith," and it has control page 33332; is 
that a page of a similar analysis, with respect to Cliff 
Smith? 

A Yes. 

Q If you would look, Mr. Conrad, at the pages with 
the control numbers beginning 23009 through 23016, whose 
handwriting is on those pages? 

A I haven't got the slightest idea. 

Q Directing your attention to the page with the 
control number at the bottom 20567; do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that your handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q The note at the top reads, "Ollie, how extensive is 
Singlaub's organization^^ "^ , Is that^a guestion^you put to 
Colonel North? 



Is that a ques _ 



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~ ' II II c ieoei 



wjMm 



430 



Yes. 



What was the reason for asking that question? 

Gaining competitor intelligence, I guess. 

What answer did you get? 

That it wasn't a very extensive organization. 

But he indicated that he was knowledgeable about it? 

i 
I think he said he didn't know a lot about it, but > 



what he did know wouldn't make it very extensive. 

Q Turning to the next page, which has your control 
number 20591; that, again, is your handwriting, is it not? 

A Tes. 

Q There is an entry about a fourth of the way from 
the bottom that reads, "Draft a Casey letter for NEFL." What | 
does that refer to? I 

A Nothing to do with Nicaragua. He were going to 
have a prograa to improve the image of the CIA. 

Q Wh«t is the approximate time of this page of notes? 

A This is out of sequence. It is on the back of a 
to-4o list, and I can only date it if I knew the other 
documents . 

Q But it is totally unrelated to Nicaragua? 

A Right . 

Q Did this program that you refer to develop with 
regard to the CIA? 

A No. 



OMLHSSIRED 



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JK^m 



431 



Q Now, turning to the next page, which has control 
number 26894, which is on a note pad that has printed on it, 
"Grin and do it." Are these your handwritten notes? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, as I read this, Mr. Conrad, it states, "Larry, 
Executive Director for Western Goals," and then "Roy Godson" 
and two telephone numbers, and then "Terry Arnold, Neil 
Livingston," and then in parens, "(phone numbers from Fawn)." 
Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A That I would get the phone numbers from Fawn, she 
had them, and they are there. 

Q Well, now, who is to be the Executive Director for 
Western Goals? Is that Larry? 

A No. I an supposed to ask — this seems to indicate 
to nm that I would b« asking Roy Godson for a recommendation 
for who should be the Executive Director for Western Goals . 

Q Who is Larry? 

A I don't recall. I think that is somewhere else in 
my notes, too, typed up. It might indicate more who Larry 



is. I think you asked me 



t_o. 




But I just 



don't remember at this timejj [^^gj y ^^.^J J 

Q Let's focus on this at the moment. Does this 
indicate to you that you are to ask Godson about the Executive] 



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Director for western Goals? 

A Yas. 

Q Ar« you also to ask Tarry Arnold and Neil 
Livingston? 

A No. 

Q That relates to something else? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Godson make a recommendation about an Executive 

Director for Western Goals? 

A I never spoke with him. 

Q Why not? 

A Because Rich Miller was getting in touch with him 
for me. 



A 

Q 

A 

Q 



Do you know if Miller spoke to him? 

He said he did. 

What did ha tell you about his conversation? 

H« said he didn't want to meet with us. 

Now, there is also an entry, 'Ollie: and Bill 
Graavas.' What does that refer to? 

A Bill Greaves is a friend, and I wanted to have 
Ollie write a letter of recommendation for getting him an 
interview for a job opening in the science — what is it 
called? Office of — nothing to do with Nicaragua. 
Q Has nothing to do with Nicaragua. Okay. 

How did Terry Arnold and Neil Livingston fit into 



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thess notes? 

A Well, Ollie referred us to them. 

Q For what purpose? 

A Because we were Interested in terrorism and so were 
they. They wanted to apply for a grant from us. 

Q So their names there are unrelated to Godson? 

A Yes. 

Q And are unrelated to Bill Greaves? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, there is also an entry, "Top 10 targets from 
Will Ball or Mitch Daniels." What does that refer to? 

A It is congressional targets, but on what issue I 
can't tell you. I don't remember. 

Q Is that related to Nicaragua? 

A I don't remember. 

Q For the record, who is Will Ball? 

A I don't )cnow. 

Q Who is Mitch Daniels? 

A Well, he works in the White House. I don't know 
what his official title is. 

Q All right. Under that, there is a reference, 
"Referral for 501." 

A No. "Referral for SDI, 

Q Oh, "Referral for SDI." Okay. Then, "Dick Stone, 
banker." What is the reference to "Dick Stone, banker? 



yiLmiRED 



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A Ollie gave me DicJc Stone as a referral for a 

possible contributor to us. 

Q For what project? 

A He didn't say. 

Q Who was Oick Stone? 

A A banker. 

Q Where? 

A In Washington. 

Q All right. Did you contact him? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Because Ollie was going to call him first, and he 
never did it. 

Q The phone number there, is that Dick Stone's phone 
number? 

A Yea. 

Q 7ou believe? 

A 7«s. Fawn gave it to me. 

Q Turning to Page 27406A, is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q What does the reference mean, '$60,000 to Ollie 
ASAP"? 

A It means give a $60,000 check to IBC 

Q Who told you to do this? IIi\va I f 

A Spitz. 



UmSSlFIED 



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Q Do you know the reason for the urgency? 

A No. 

Q Do you remember this specific occasion? 

A No. 

Q Then there is a reference to "Bas)^ brothers and 
Green, " what does that refer to? 

A That means I was supposed to ask Colonel North 
whether he knows the BasjK brothers? 

Q Did you? 

A I can't recall whether I did. 

Q Did you ever succeed in making contact with the 
Bas^ brothers? 

A No. Well, I'm sorry — I believe Jane McLaughlin 
talked with one of them. 

Q Old they ever contribute any money? 

A I don't recall. I would have to look at the 
records . 

Q Do you recall that they made any significant 
contributions 7 

A No. 

Q "No," they did not? 

A No, they did not. 

Q Okay. There is also a reference here to "Shopping 

list on Monday night.' What does that mean? 

A One of our perpetual requests for a new shopping 



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lists, which never arrived. 

Q Then under that, there is a reference, "Elliott: 
iMonday: call Harper." What does that mean? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Does "Elliott" refer to Elliott Abrams? 

A Yes. 

Q And is "Harper" the contributor that is referred to 
earlier, that was identified by Secretary Shultz? 

A Perhaps . 

Q Well, to refresh your recollection, look back at 
the notes dated January 27, 1986. 

A (Witness peruses documents.) 

Q Those notes say, "Harper referred by Secretary 
Shultz," do they not? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, does that refresh your recollection that the 
note on Control Page 27406A aibout, 'Monday: call Harper," is 
that sane contributor? 

A I don't Icnow. 

Q That name there is "Harper," is it not 

A Yes. 

Q So you don't know whether that is the same Harper 
that is referred to on your notes jlat^d January 27, 1986; is 



that what you are saying? Ill 

A Yes. I have no recollection 




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Q But you believe "Elliott" is Elliott Abrams? 

A Yes. 

Q Does that note indicate that you talked to Elliott 
ABrajna about the Mr. Harper who is referred to in that same 
line? 

A It is a note prompting me to do that; yes. 

Q To call Elliott? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you do so? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A I don't know. 

Q How do you know you did not? 

A I don't recall it. 

MR. FRYMAM: Is this a good time to break for 
lunch? Off the record. 

[Whereupon, a luncheon recess was taken.] 



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AFTERNOON §.I.SSI_ON 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, I direct your attention to a page in 
the notes that does not have a date on it. The control 
number at the bottom is 30117. 
A I have it . 

Q Are those notes in your handwriting? 
A yes . 

Q Do you know the date of those notes? 
A I am looking. 

(Witness peruses document.) 

August 6th, 1985, Control Number 30117 — is here 
twice. I refuse to submit to being asked the seune questions 
over again on the same documents. 

This was our Venice re«n:ite, you may recall. 
Q Tea. All right. 

Now turning to th« naxt page, which I believe is 
31642; in any case, it is headed at the top "ATAC-Maryland. " 
Do you see that page? 
A Yes. 

Q Whose handwriting is that page? 
A Spitz Channell. 
Q Did he give this sheet to you? 
A No. 



UNClASSinED 



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Q Have you se«n this sheat before? 

A No. 

Q You have never seen it until today? 

A That is correct. 

Q Were you aware that this sheet existed? 

A No. 

Q The bottom portion of the page is headed "Green 
dollars," and there is a list of various names and amounts. 
Do you know what those names and amounts represent? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
No. 

Q Turning to the next page, which has your control 
number 32666, is that page in your handwriting? 

A NO. 

Q Oo you know whose handwriting that is? 

A Tea. 

Q Whose is that? 

A Cliff Smith's. 

Q Have you seen this page before today? 

A No. 

Q Do you know James Robert Dougherty, Jr., is? 

A I believe he is the'-son of May Dougherty King. 

Q Is he deceased? 

A I am not positive. I may be confusing -- since you 



he -son or May Dougherty t 

UNCLASSIFIED 



,-miim t-h«t l59u«. this mav be her brother. I am not oositive. 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



440 



I don't know. 

Q What is the entry to the left, under the name — 

A Hugh Grove. 

Q Is that "Foundation"? 

A And Foundation. 

Q Do you know what that refers to? 

A I haven't any idea. 

Q Do you know what the entries, "Colonel North, RR, 
Director Casey, " and then an arrow toward "Foundation" 
further down on the page refer to? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Do you recall any discussion with Hr. Channell or 
Mr. Smith, or anyone else within NEPL, concerning a foundation 
and the brother of May Dougherty King? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Turning to the next page, which has control number 
33141, is that your handwriting? 



A No. 

Q Hhoae is that? 

A I don't know. 

Q Is that Mr. Smith's handwriting 

A I don't think so. 1 don't know. 

Q The first entry appears to state, "Reclassify P. 
BecH^ against contributors," is the way I interpret it. Do 
vou know what that refers to? 



"Mss, 



m 



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iioa) in nil 



No. 



"NCUXJIflffl 



441 



Q The second item is "0-S Consultants." Do you know 
what that refers tc? 

A No. 

Q The seventh item reads, "Calero change Xmas, ■ which 
is spelled X-M-A-S, "to foundation,"* or "FDN, ■" appears to be 
"foundation name,"* "Look at check." Do you know what that 
refers to? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall any discussion of changing "Christmas" 
to FDN name on any checks? 

A I don't know what this refers to at all. 

Q And you don't know whose writing this is? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the next pages, which are 33326 through 
29, is this the contribution analysis of Jair McLaughlin, 
which is similar to the analysis of Mr. Littledale that we 
looked at earlier? 

A Yes. And Mr. Smith. 

Q And Mr. Smith. 

Turning to Page 33333, is that your handwriting? 



A No. 

Q Whose is that? 

A Cliff Smith's. 

Q Have you seen that page before today? 



iWUSSIFIED 



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Probably. 



"NMs/flfn 



442 



Q What is that page? 

A It is part o£ the analysis. 

Q That we have been discussing? 

A Yes. 

Q Ms. McLaughlin and Mr. Littledale and Mr. Smith? 

A Yes. It is the raw data from which the report is 
put together . 

Q Now, if you will look at the next page, which is 
numbered 34522, is that page in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall the approximate date these notes were \ 
prepared? I 

A No. 

Q Toward the bottom of the page, there is an entry or 
entries which state, "1.5 year multi-fasted program at local 
level. Ada to support the President. Working with different 
constituent groups to educate then to support the President. 
Reached out to grass roots organizations." Then "ACT, NEPL, 
Sentinel," then an arrow, "All three groups." Then another 
entry, "Only national security group with even lobbyist on 
retainer. " 

A one lobbyist |JiyPI A^vQinFli 

Q "With even one lobVjrljftHAl'-rVtfaVfill.^^^fthat do 

those notes refer to? 



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ONCUSSIFIEO 



443 



A It is our history, and I don't know why I'm writing 
it there. 

Q Axe these notes for some sort of summary report? 

A I guess. 

Q Are these notes of a conversation with Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to Page 35090, is that in your handwriting? 

A No. 

Q Do you know whose handwriting that is? 

A Not for certain. 

Q Have you seen this page before? 

A Yes. 

Q When? 

A I don't know. 

Q Was this sheet prepared for you? 

A Yes. 

Q By the Accounting Department? 

A I can't recall. 

Q What was the reason you asked that this sheet be 
prepared? 

A Well, I believe this cones from Rich Miller, and 

this was an accounting as to how they spent the money that we 
iiij 

gave them . 



Q This is an accounting -- it is headed "IBC - Fees 
received from ACT and NEPL.' 



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444 



A Right . 

Q And you beliave this was prepared by someone at IBC? 
I- A Yes . 

Q At your request? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason for the request? 

A Well, we requested, from time to time, listings, 
periodic listings of how they spent the money. 

Q Now, the column at the left has, apparently, a 
month and a date indication. Is that the way you interpret 
that? 

A Yes. 

Q What year do those months and dates refer to? 
Would that be 1985 or 1986? 

A I think 1985. 

Q Now, there is an entry, 'July 19, contribution to 
cause, $80,000." What do you interpret that to be? 

A That we gave a check to IBC for direct aid to the 
Fre«doa Fighters. 

Q Were checks for direct aid in that amount being 
transferred in July of 1985? 

A I don't know. 

Q So you are not certain if these en^rj^e^ _rtf late to 
1985 or 1986; is that correct? 

A Well, I an as certain as I can be without looking 



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at the financial record. 

Q Your belief is that it is 1985? 

A That is correct. 

Q There is an entry on July 17 for "the Sacher 

project." Was that in 1985 or 1986? 

A It was in both years. 

Q Both years . 

A But I mean it started in 1985. Also, the fact that 
there are three payments in May, each of $5,000, would 
indicate that it is 1985 because we paid them in dribbles and 
drabs rather than all at one fell s%raop. 

Q There is also an entry, June 19, "Palmer wire 
contribution, $130,000." 

A Yes. 

Q Hould there have been a contribution of that amount 
to IBC in 1985, in June of that year? 

A I believe so. 

Q It is possible? 

A Sure. 

Q Turning to 36003, which is the following page, are 
these notes in your handwriting? 

A No . 

Q Do you know whose handwriting i'^AiJ-i?. 

A Cliff Smith. 

Q Have you seen this page before today? 



e handwriting this is? 

UNCLA^SinED 



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ONCUSSIFIEO 



446 



A (Witness peruses document.) 
No. 

Q You don't recall seeing that page previously? 

A No. 

Q Turning to Page 37235, is that your handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q About a third of the way dovm, there is the entry 
"Ellen Garwood, David Harm," and then what appears to be, 
"FRS." What does that refer to? 

A It mean hold fundraisers. We were going to ask 
them to hold a fundraising event in their area. 

Q Did that occur? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A One of the eight million things we didn't get done. 

Q Above that, there is a note, "Call Terry Dolan re 
Dolan," and then there is a note I can't read. Can you read 
it? 

A "Report. - 

Q What is that? 

A Nothing to do with Nicaragua. I mean the Dolan 
Report is a publication that Terry Dolan wanted — or did, in 
fact, put out for a while. It was a conservative polling 

UNpLASSJFP . 

Q On down, there are references xo ofrWl^names, Joe 



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yri^., 



Aunt Eleanor." Do those 



Wallace, Crai? Bills, Sanuei 
relate to Nicaragua? 

A Not at all. 

Q Are those personal? 

A Spitz' personal. 

Q And on below that, there are other names, "Scarpia 
and Stefano. " 

A Right. 

Q Oo they relate to the operations of NEPL? 

A No. Personal. 

Q Below that, "Smith Farraby letter." What does that 
refer to? 

A Also not to do with Nicaragua. He was the financial 
campaign manager, I guess, — the campaign finance manager 
for Wyatt Durrett* who was running for Governor of Virginia 
in 1985. 

Q Turning to Page 37254, is that your handwriting on 
that page? 

A T«S. 

Q There is an entry in the middle column, "Grenada 
Papers." What does that refer to? 

A A publication of the United Sta^Mk G<32f<rrunejit 

Q What is the reason for that noti 

A The Grenada Papers were published by the — a 
synopsis, a selection of the documents were published by the 



H 





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UNCLASSIFIED 



U.S. Governmsnt Printing Office in a book. We got a copy of 
the book, and then we ordered several other copies, and that 
is who we were supposed to send them to. For information. 

Q That is the individuals listed under there? 

A Right . 

Q "Mr. Ramsey, Bunker Hunt, the Pentecosts and 
Newington"? 

A Right. 

Q What is the phrase under "Newington"? 

A • Us . ■• 

Q What does that mean? 

A We needed to keep a copy. 

Q I see. And did you send copies of those papers to 
those individuals? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason for doing that? 

A Just to keep them up to date on what was happening. 
It showed CoBBDunist infiltration in Grenada and what their 
plans were to take over other countries in the Caribbean and 
so on. 

Q Now, under that, there is a reference to "Room 450, 
Green presentation." What does that refer to? 

A It means we wanted to have a Green presentation, a 
briefing by Colonel North in Room 450 at the OEOB. 

Q Do you recall which particular briefing this refers 



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ONCLASSIHED 



449 



A (Witness peruses document.) 

October — it is October or November 1985. 

Q Turning to page 37273, is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q What is the date of that page, or approximate date? 

A Wait a minute. Excuse me. 

(Witness peruses documents.) 
Probably 3/19/85. 

Q Kow do you come up with that date? 

A By looking at the Americans for Freedom and 
Fairness notes on -- what is it — I guess 27071. Wait a 
minute, I might be wrong. 

No. I think I am wrong. I am sorry. I don't know 
the date. I cannot tell. It is not what I said before, 
though . 

Q Are these notes of a meeting you had with Hr. 
Calero? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A Just how we vet^a<^ijta -f JLlA'gjgrilf ll_ *"- direct 

aid. 

Q Did you under from Mr. Channell that this was a 



No. 

With Mr. Channell? 

Yes. 

Why is this headed ."Calero Plan"? 

Just how we wei 




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UNCLASSIHED 



450 



proposal by Mr. Calero? 

A No, no. For him. 

Q This was a proposal by Mr. Channel 1 for Mr. Calero? 

A Well, not to be given to him directly. 

Q But to raise money for this? 

A Yes. 

Q NOW, did this occur in 1985? 

A I am not positive. 

Q Was this plan developed, or were these notes made 
before you began making the transfers for direct aid to Mr. 
Miller's organization? 

A I cannot possibly tell you. 

Actually, this might be back when I said it was, 
about the Americans for Freedom and Fairness. In other 
words, it could be very early in 1985. 

Q And this was a plan of Mr. Channell to raise $13 
million, basically, for Mr. Calero? 

A Tea. 

Q Was this plan implemented? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A I don't know. 

Q Turning to Page 37775^,^ ^^y°*i '^* that page? 

A Yes. 

Q Whose handwriting is that? 



^5^, do you see that page 

ONctera 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



451 



A Spitz Channell. 

Q Now, on the third line, there is the phrase, "New 
list of toys." Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A I don't know. 

Q Have you seen this sheet before today? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you see it? 

A A few months ago. 

Q Did you see it at or about the time Mr. Channell 
wrote it? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q You don't recall if he gave you this note at or 
about the time that he wrote it? 

A No, I don't recall. 

Q Mow, you don't know what the phrase "New list of 
toy«" refers to? 

A No. 

Q Was "toys" a phrase that was used in the NEPL 
offices to represent anything? 

A Sometimes. 

Q What was it used for? 

A Well, I never used it. 

Q Were vou aware that others were using it? 



HNCIASSIHEO 



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UNCUSSIHED 



452 



A Only vaguely. I mean it was no big thing, by any 
means . 

Q You never used it yourself. 
A No. 

Q Were you aware that there were accounts designated, 
or there was an account designated the "Toys Account" in the 
financial records of NEPL? 
A Yes. 

What did you understand that account represented? 

I didn't know. 

Did you discuss it with anyone? 

Maybe Steve McMahon. 

You did discuss it with Mr. McMahon. 

The fact that it existed, I discussed with Steve 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 

McMahon 
Q 
A 
Q 

A 

Q 



Did you ask hia what it represented? 

No. Spitz said, 'Set it up,* so we set it up. 

That was the extent of the discussion? 

Tea. 

Did it seem strange to.Vi>u..to_hAy^«i^a(;cQunt 
designated the "Toys Account'?] 

A Most of the accounts were strange to me. Spitz had 
a very peculiar way of handling his accounting system, 
putting together his accounting system. It should never have 
been handled this way. This is just another in a long series 




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of arbitrary and capricious titles being put on things. 

Q Now, you considered yourself the Number Two person 
in the organization; is that correct? 

A That is right. 

Q Did you consider that your responsibilities 
extended to the financial area of the organization? 

A Well, within certain limits, yes. 

Q Well, did those limits include banJc accounts? 

A Yes . 

Q And designation of bank accounts for certain 
purposes? 

A No. 

Q Were you aware that in late 1986 the Accounting 
personnel were directed to change entries in the NEPL 
financial records and substitute other entries for the phrase 
"Toys"? 

A Tea . I directed then to do that . 

Q Why did you do that? 

A Because I said it was ridiculous to call the 
account "Toys . " 

Q Why? 

A Because we were getting press on _it_._ 

Q Press about what? 

A Well, people were alleging that we were using the 
Toys Account as a euphemism for buying treapons, and I said we 



[etrting press on it. 

UNCUSSIFIED 



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shouldn't hav* that, so we should change the account name on 
our computer records . 

Q How did you know that was incorrect? 

A What . 

Q That that account was being used as an account for 
funds to purchase weapons . 

A Because the account contained all kinds of expendi- 
tures, I mean just a huge variety of expenditures, and it was 
a total misnomer. It is one of those accounting situations 
that Spitz would often get himself to, which is just — it 
ended up being mish-mash. Maybe he had an original thought 
when he constructed it, but it certainly got lost in the 
shuffle. 

' Q Did you discuss with Mr. Channell that you were 
going to direct the Accounting personnel to make these 
changes in the records? 

A Hell, it was only one change. It was changed on 
the coaputer system from the *iord "Toys" to another term, 
which I have forgotten — Central Aawrlcan Freedom — CAFP, 
something; I have forgotten. 

Q Or "TV ads . " 

A Yes. Whatever. I Would have to look. 

Q But there were sevti^^ctt^ff/t^q^ffv^^ changed, 
were there not? 

A I think there was only one. 



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Q You mean just one particular — 

A I think there is only one document, one file, one 
computer file on which this occurs. 

Q But there were a number of contributions where the 
particular identification was changed, from "Toys' to 
something else. 

A I don't know about that. 

MS. LUBIN: May we go off the record for a minute. 
MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad is it your understanding that the 
Accounting personnel could make one entry in the computer 
records, changing the phrase "Toys" to "CAFP" or rv ads," or 
whatever the revised phrase was, and that would have the 
effect of changing that identification for each contribution 
that had been included in that account? 
A Yes. 

Q Now, returning to this note, which is 37775; at the 
top, what does the first line state? 

A "New list, dollars. -r I don't know. 



Q What does that refer to? 

A I haven't any idea 

Q What does the next line state? 



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A Worldwide -- I am not sure what the next word is, 
"foundation," maybe, and then "dollars." 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Well, I think it refers to our worldwide fundraising 
efforts that we wanted to get started. 

Q Is that with respect to NEPL or Western Goals, or 
both? 

A I don't know. 

Q Now, we have talked about the next line which says, 
"New list of toys." What is the line under that? What does 
that say? 

A I can't read the writing. Something "for dollars." 

Q And the line under that, does that state, Letter 
from Ollie to people"? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A I am not sure. 

Q What is the word above "people"? 

A "Doable. " 

Q Is that Channell's handwriting? 

A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Q Do you know what that refers to? 

A NO. 

Q NOW, the line uncler "thTt ,' does that read, How much 
does Elliott," and then there is a word after that 



does 



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the first part read, "How much does Elliott"? 

A Well, I guess. I don't know. I can't be sure. 
Q What is the last word in that sentence, or that 

line? 

A Good question. If I saw the original, I might be 
able to tell you, but I would have to decipher it. 
Q Turning to Page 37 842; do you see that?. 
Yes. 

Is that your handwriting? 
No. 



Whose handwriting is that? 

I think it is Otitis Littledala. 



Have you seen that page before today? 
No. 

Turning to Page 37845, whose handwriting is that? 
I think it is — well, I am not sure. I think it 
is Ctaris Littledale. I don't know. It might be Cliff Smith. 
Q You are not sure? 
A I an not sure. 

Q At the top, there is a reference to a 'secret 
conference.' Do you know what that refers to? 

A A conference on countertarrorism, which had nothing 
to do with Nicaragua, which we wanted Ed Lu^iVak to manage for 
us, to put together for us. 

Q Did that conference occur' 




rem 



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A 

Q 

A 
answer . 

Q 
Thursday. 

A 

Q 



458 



No. 

Why not? 

We got swept up in other matters. I don't know the 



In the middle of the page, there is a note "95 by 

Do you )cnow what that is, or what that refers to? 
No. 

Under that, there is a phrase "Hire Fischer to 
bring us all over to White House to meet with Ronald Reagan." 
Do you know what that refers to? 
A No. 

Q Beneath that it says, 'Re ACF/," and it looks like 
it is "lARM - Ollie said this was good idea." Do you know 
what that refers to? 
A Yes. 
Q What? 

A lARM is a project of the American Conservative 
Foundation. It stands for the Institute for the Analysis of 
Revolutionary Movements. And prior to our establishing it, I 
believe Qktia talked with him about it and, apparently, this 
is his note that it was a good idea. 

Q What steps were taken to implement this idea? 
MS. LUBIN: Does this have anything to do with 



Nicaragua? 



THE WITNESS: No. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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uiuaraa. D C iooo: 



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Just some planning things. It was never imple- 
mented, but it has nothing to do with Nicaragua. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q At the bottom of the page, do you see the section 
beginning "Green"? 
A Yes. 

Q Would you read that, please? 
A It says, "Set up before he disappeared — Green 



will show up -- we will get--" something 



'for grant for hi 



— we need — we need" something. "Give 30K, make possible. 

I cannot read all the handwriting. 

Q Then in solid caps, it says, "PRIVATE." 

A Yes. I am sorry. It says "PRIVATE" in capital 

letters . 

Q Now, you believe this is Mr. Littledale's writing 

or Mr. Smith's writing? 



Yes, one of the two. 

What does that last paragraph refer to? 

I don't know, i think it is pfris Littledale's 



A 

Q 
A 

writing. 

Q Are you aware of any payment to Colonel North in 
the amount of $30,000? 



li: 



No. 



OHCLilSSIFIED 



A 

Q More generally, Mr. Conrad, are you aware of any 
payments by NEPL, or any of the Channell organizations, for 



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the benefit of Colonel North individually or his family, 
other than the two trips that you referred to, where his 
transportation was paid? 

A And the briefcase that we bought for him. That is 



all. 



That is the only thing? 
Right. 

Turning to the next page, 37846, does that, again, 
appear to be the writing of either Mr. Smith or Mr. 
Littledale? 

A Yes. 

Q The section in the middle of the page, beginning 
"If complains, " do you see that? 
A Yes. 

Q Would you read that section into the record. 
A 'If complains -- this was Green's big deal — he's 
getting part of this . He wants to go out to dinner with you 

— go to White House with product — " I don't know what that 
says — 'products,' the word is undecipherable — "so 
important future of country — Green suggested we start this 

— can you use this — " 

Q "Foundation, ' is that the %rord? 

A I don't know. Maybe. — "use tllifl.tpyndation in 
future to help Green in variety of ways . I 

Q Now, do you know what that refers to7 




653 



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UNCUSSIHED 



461 



A No. 

Q Do you recall any discussion of establishing a | 

foundation to help Green in a variety of ways? i 

A Not that I recall. There was a discussion about | 

setting up a foundation for other purposes but to, coinci- 

! 
dentally, being receptive to giving his daughter a scholar- 
ship. But that never happened. .1 

Q When was that discussion? 

A I could not tell you. 

Q Who was that discussion with? 

A Colonel North, myself. 

Q Was that in his office? 

A Yes. 

Q What sort of foundation was this to be? 

A We have discuased this before. We were going set up 
a foundation in England — we had discussed different places, 
and so on, — for the purpose of worldwide fundraising, and I 
talked with Colonel North about that on several occasions. 

On one of the occasions, I said to him, "I think if 
your daughter would like a scholarship to Harvard University, ' 
which is where she was planning to go, "that when we get our 
foundation set up, that if she made an application to it, I 
feel sure it would receive favorable treatment." He said, 
That would be very nice. She is a very deserving young 
womaiAlK mtwK m90kSti»wti^9^ the conversation. 



INCUSMD 



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Q This was Just you and Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q In his office. 

A Yes. 

Q What was the approximate date of this conversation? 

A I couldn't tell you. 

Q Was it 1986? 

A I couldn't tell you. I am not positive. 

Q Was this discussed with anyone else? 

A Spitz. 

Q Was the discussion between you and Mr. Channel 1? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Colonel North also participate in that 

discussion? 

A No. No. 

Q What did you and Mr. Channell say with regard to 
this matter? 

A Well, we %#are trying to put it in — we wanted to 
hire Colonel North when he left the White House and when he 
left the military, and %#• were just trying to do things that 
would let him ]cnow that we %«ere serious. 

Q And indicating to him that his daughter could get a 
scholarship from this foundation was an indication to him that 
you were serious about hiring him? 

A Yes. 



I* Oil xiiuxuauxwii WW 11X111 uj 

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UNCUSSIFIEO 



463 



Q What sort of discussions did you or Mr. Channell 
have with him about hiring him for your organization? 

A Well, we indicated that we wanted to hire him, 
that's all, and he kept — he didn't respond very positively 
to that, because he still had things to do on his own, you 
know, with the White House and with the military. Actually, 
the longest part of the conversation was about the fact that 
he couldn't leave until he reached retirement age, I gather, 
at the military. 

Q When was that to occur? 

A Very soon. 

Q And at that point, he could join you after he 
reached retirement age? 

A Yes. Well, so he said, l mean who knows if he was 
being straightforward. 

Q On how nany occasions did you discuss with Colonel 
North the possibility of his joining you? 

A Not very many times . 

Q More than five? 

A I don't think so. 

Q More than two? 

A Probably. 

Q Between two and five? 

A Hopefully. 

Q Could it have been more than five? 



rive? 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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A I am not positive. It wasn't a constant thsme. 

Q But it occurred on several occasions? 

A It did. 

Q Did these types of discussions also occur between 
Colonel North and Mr. Channell at times when you were present? 

A Not at times I was present. 

Q Do you know if they occurred when you were not 
present? 

A I do not know. 

Q Now, with respect to your discussions with Colonel 
North, was there any discussion of the amount of money that 
you would pay him when he came to work for you? 

A I think only to the extent that I said, "You 
wouldn't have to worry about finances." 

Q Six figure income? 

A Oh, easily. 

Q Seven? 

A No. No . 

Q But mid to high six figure income? 

A Yes. 

MS. LUBIN: Was it specif iec 

THE WITNESS: No, it wasn't specified. He never 
asked, and I never volunteered. But what I was thinking, — 
well, I suppose you would say low six figures. 




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BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q But you indicated to him that if he came to work 

for you, he wouldn't have to worry about finances? 

A Right. 

Q And his daughter could get a scholarship from the 
foundation to be established in England? 

A Right. 

Q Were there to be other financial rewards? 

A That wasn't discussed. He didn't warm to the 
conversation. 

Q Or the several conversations? 

A Right. On any occasion, he didn't warm to it. 

Q How do you know he didn't warm to it? 

A Because he didn't say, 'Wow, that's a neat idea. 
Let's discuss particulars." 

Q But he didn't break off the discussion? 

A Well, he kept putting roadblocks in the way. I 
nM«n maybe he was just being diplomatic. 

Q What were the roadblocks? 

A Well, you know, "I have to wait until I retire," 
and I mean he just wasn't encouraging. 

Q But the retirement,, you indicated, was to occur 
very soon? 

A Like a couple of years. I 

Q What became of the foundation that you were 




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establishing in England? 
A Nothing. 
Q Was it established? 
A No. 

Q Are you aware of any funds being raised or used for 
a scholarship for Colonel North's daughter? 
A No, I am not aware of any. 

MR. McGOUGH: Let me just interject one question. 
Do you recall when the conversation about the scholarship 
took place? 

THE WITNESS: No. 

MR. McGOUGH: Can you put it in a year? 

THE WITNESS: No. 

MR. McGOUGH: 1985 or 1986? 

THE WITNESS: One of the two. 

MR. McGOUGH I One of the two. All right. 

THE WITNESS: I can put it in a 12-month time frame 
for you. 

MR. McGOUGH: All right. Why don't you? 

THE WITNESS: It has got to be either July -- it is 
after July 1985, but before July 1986. It is in that 12- 
fflonth time frame, but I cannot do better than that. 

MR. McGOUGH: And as to the scholarship, it was 
just a single conversation? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 



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BY MR- FRYMAN: 

Q You have referred to a foundation being established J 
in England; is there some particular reason that was to be 
established in England as opposed to another country? ' 

A I think our attorney knew somebody who was English, 
an English attorney. 

Q Who was the attorney? 

A Curt Merge. I 

Q Curt Merge. And that is the only reason that it | 

was to be an English foundation, so far as you know? i 

i 
A So far as I know. i 

Q Returning to this page of notes, 37846; the last 

line appears to read, "O'Neal, $30,000. He is only person to ; 

get reporter there." Oo you know what that refers to? ! 

I 

A No. j 

I 
I 

Q Turning to the next page, 37847, is that your J 

handwriting? i 

A No. 

I 
Q None of the entries on that page are your hand- j 

writing? 

A NO. 

Q Item 3 refers to 'Green phone or Mel Williams and 
Sullivan," or at least it appears to state that. Do you know 
what that refers to? ~ 

A No. 



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Q Have you seen this sheet before today? 

A No. 

Q Do you know whose handwriting is on this sheet? 

A pflris Littledale. 

Q The whole sheet appears to be his handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q And is that also true of the next page, 37848? 

A Yes . 

Q Turning to Page 37851, whose handwriting is that? 

A jSifis Littledale' s. 

Q Have you seen that page before today, or do you 
recall seeing that page before today? 

A No. 

Q Turning to page 37854; is that Mr. Channell's 
handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Oo«s that state at the top, "Green," underscored, 
and then there is an entry, "Bunker, 160 raised, 63 needed"? 
Is that your understanding of what that states? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A I haven't any Idea. 

Q Would you read the last two lines of that note? 

A I don't know what the first word is, 'Lear,' maybe. 
I don't know. "35," and then it says, "44 pt," and it says. 



■E 



^ 



UNCLASSIFIED 



661 



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25 



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"8:00 p.m.- Then it says "892620, NEPL, - and then it says, 
•M Green. " 

Q What does "44 pt" refer to? 

A I haven't any idea. 

Q And you cannot read the first word? 

A No. It looks like "Lear," but I am not positive. 

Q Do you know what those two lines refer to? 

A I don't. 

Q Have you seen this note before, to the best of your 
recollection? 

A Not to the best of my recollection. 

Q Turning to Page 78782, whose handwriting is on that 
page? 

A Cliff Smith. 

Q Now, at the top the notes appear to read, "For 
Calero, 530 — midnight, cannot call white House." Do you 
know what that refers to? 

A NO. 

Q Do you recall seeing this page of notes before 
today? 

A No. 

Q Turning to Page 81288, is that page in Mr. 
Channell's handwriting? 

A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



What does 'White House Briefing II' refer to 



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MI C Sam Nl i 

<».-liu>mo» O C 10002 



A I don't know. 

Q And there is an entry "EOB" which I take it means 
Executive Office Building. 

A Yes. 

Q Then it says, '20 individuals at $10,000 each." 
Did you discuss with Mr. Channell a proposed contribution of 
each person who attended such a briefing of $10,000? 

A I don't recall. 

Q What do you understand that refers to? 

A Well, I don't know what ha had in mind here. I 
never saw this before. 

Q You don't recall seeing this before today? 

A No. 

Q Turning to Page 81301, whose handwriting is that? 

A Cliff Smith's. 

Q Do you recall seeing those notes before today? 

A NO. 

Q In the middle, there appears to b« a phrase, 
"President gone blind, apply to planes 65 — one plane.' Do 
you know what that refers to? 

A I haven't any idea. 

Q Then under that is the word "mall," do you see that; 

A Yes. 

Q Then under that, the phrase ""computers directly to 
Pentagon. " Do you know what the reference 'computers 



Uliau X9 -una wwi.u uiaxx, 

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directly to Pentagon" means? 

A No. 

Q Do you see, over to the side of that, the phrase 
"secret program, CIA report"? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know what that refers to? 

A No. 

Q These are all Mr. Smith's notes? 

A Yes . 

Q There is also the phrase below that, "Darlington 
two security phones . * Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know what that refers to? 

A No. 

Q At the top of that page, there is a heading that 
appears to read 'Mary — list.' Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that what you understand that to refer to? 

A I guess. 

Q Do you know who "Mary" is? 

A I don't know for certain. 

Q Are you aware of an-. individual naned Mary that is 
associated with this operation in any way? 

A Yes. 

Q Who? 



>peration in any way? 

HNtlASSIFltO 



664 



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472 



A Mary Adamkiewicz. 
Q Anyone else? 
A No. 

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
(Briefly off the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Turning to Page 81782, whose handwriting is on that 
page? 

A I think it is phtis Littledale. 

Q Now, there is an entry that reads, "O'Neal $100- 
200,000 in January," and the words "TOP PRIORITY" in solid 
caps and underscored. Do you know what that refers to? 
A No. 

Q Can you tell, front the context of these notes if 
they were made in January of 1987 7 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, I think so. I could be off by some time. 
Q Are you aware of any program where a contribution 
was being sought from Mr. O'Neal of $100,000 to $200,000 in 
January of 1987? 

A Not that I recall. -_ 

Q Turning to Page 81862, whose handwriting is on that 



page? 



p«ri 



s Littledale. 



UNCUSSIHED 



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Q Now Line 5 on that page reads "Garwood, $9,100, 
Sentinel," and then there is the wor;!, solid caps, "ADD," and ' 
then similar entries. Number 6 is -Ramsey, $9,100, Sentinel, ■ 
ADD," and then Line 7 is "Anderson, $7,100, Sentinel, ADD." 
Do you know what those entries refer to? 

A No. ! 

THE WITNESS: Could we take a break now? ' 

MR. FRYMAN: Yes. Off the record, ! 

i 
[Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.] 

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Conrad, I have had the Reporter 

mark as Exhibit 10 for identification a group of pages of 

memoranda, letters, invoices, transcripts or similar types of 

documents from the materials that have been produced by 

counsel for the Channel organizations . The control numbers 

of pages Included in this exhibit are listed at the beginning 

of the exhibit, where they are identifiable. There is at 

least one instance where we could not identify the control 

nunbar and there is a question mark indicated. 

(The document referred to was 

marked for identification as 

Conrad Oegosition Exhibit 10.) 

BY MR. FRYMAN 

Q I am now going to have a series of questions with 

respect to a number of the documents in Exhibit 10. 



■ Conrad Deposition Exhi 

UNCLASSIFIED 



666 



liNCUSsm 



474 



I first direct your attention to a letter dated 
July 19, 1985 from Joseph C. Luman, General Counsel of the 
Nicaraguan Refugee Fund, to J, Curtis Herge, which refers to 
the "forwarding of an additional contribution that constitutes 
a satisfactory resolution of the communication problems that 
apparently existed during the Month of May." 
Do you know what that refers to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
Just generally. 

Q What was it? 

A I can't recall the specifics of it, but they 
thought that the National Endowment apparently owed them more 
money for — I am forgetting the whole issue, I mean the 
specifics of the issue. I believe they alleged that the 
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty owed them 
more money. 

Q The National Endowment raised money for the 
dinners; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And they claimed that you retained too much of the 
money that had been raised? 

A I don't know that t ever saw a list of particulars. 

Q But there was some settlement <^1^, ^5^«^'i"^*!l, 

A Yes. 

Q And this letter refers to that settlement? 




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UNCUSSIflED 



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A Yas. But I hava nevar saan this lettar bafore. 
Q Now, tha naxt paga is a lattar from Colonel North 
to Mr. Channell dated August 15, 1985. There is a note at 
the top that reads "Do not circulate." Whose handwriting is 
that? 

I don ' t know . 
Is that your handwriting? 
No. 

Did you or Mr. Channall make any efforts to obtain 
this lettar from Colonel North? 
A Yes. 

Q Did you draft it? 
A I don't recall. 

Q Has it drafted by someone in the NEPL or Miller 
organizations? 

A I an not positive. Probably. 

Q And a draft was then submitted to the white House? 

A Tea. 

Q What was the reason you wanted this letter? 



Credibility. 
With whoa? 
Contributors . 



UNCIASSIHED 



Q Turning to the letter dated December 5, 1985, from 
Mr. Calero to Mr. Channell; have you seen that letter before? 
A Yes. 



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Q Now, there is a reference to "raising $50,000 for 

the families in Nicaragua to sustain them through the holiday 

00 you see that? 
Yes. 
Was that the origin of the Toys Account? 

1 believe so. 

Was that amount of money raised? 
I don't know how much was raised. 
But an amount was raised, in response to this 



season. 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 

letter? 
A 
Q 
A 

whom. 
Q 
A 
Q 



Yes. 

And that was transmitted to whom? If you know. 
I don't. It was transmitted, but I don't know to 



All right. 

I would have to look. 

Turning to the next letter which is from Mr. 
Littledale to a James Landrum, dated January IS, 1986; there 
is a reference in that letter to "seeing Mr. Landrum in the 
next two weeks to go over our shopping list." Do you know 
what that refers to? 
A No, I don't. 

Q Did anyone in NEPL have a, quote, "shopping list," 
closed quote, in January 1986?| 
A Not that I knew of. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
[Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, directing your attention to the letter 
dated January 16, 1986, from Mr. Channell to Mrs. Julius E. 
Pierce, and the enclosure, which are your control number 
pages 29521 through 29525. Who drafted the enclosure to that 
letter? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

MS. LUBIN: Can I ask the basis for your thinking 
it is an enclosure? 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, I'thought, from the context of 
the letter, that it was, but let me ask the question, then, 
to Mr. Conrad. 

MS. LUBIN: I am not sure that is the case at all. 
BY MR. FRYMANi 
Q Do you believe that Pages 29522 through 25 were 
included as an enclosure with the January 16 letter to Mrs. 
Pierce? 

A I don't know. I have never seen either of these 
documents before. 

Q You have never seen either of these documents 



before? 



No. 



ONCLASSIFIED 



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478 



Q Were you aware that the document headed "Central 
America Freedom Fighter Emergency Program' had been drafted 
or existed? 

A I don't recall. 

Q All right. Turning to Page 81706, which is a Plan 
of Action prepared by Bruce P. Cameron on January 24, 1986; 
have you seen that document before? 

A No. 

Q Do you know Bruce Cameron? 

A Yes. 

Q Were you aware that he worked with NEPL in 
connection with the lobbying campaign in 1986? 

A Yea. 

Q What was his role? 

A To lobby on the Hill. 

Q Was he retained by NEPL? Did he perform services 
for NEPL? 

MS. LUBINi Can you, as we have been using NEPL -- 
MR. FRYMAN: Ye« . I am using "NEPL" to refer — 
unless I indicate otherwise, I am using "NEPL" to refer to 
the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, as 
well as the other Channell organizations. When I intend to 
refer to a specific orf§§i^j^oi},^^^^_ indicate in my 
question. 

THE WITNESS! So the question is what? 




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back? 



MR. FRYMAN: Would the reporter r«ad th« quastion 
[Th« panding quastion was raad back by the 



Reporter. ] 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q How was he introduced to the Channell organizations? 
A Rich Miller. 

Q What was the name of Mr. Cameron's organization? 
A I think the Center for Democracy in the Americas . 
Q Is that the only organization he was associated 
with, so far as you know? 
A I don't know. 
Q Well, to put the question another way: Do you know 

of any other organization that he was associated with? 

i 
A I was never clear on the point. | 

Q Tou knew that he was associated with the Center for | 

Oeaocracy in the Americas; is that correct? 

A Tea . 

Q Do you know of any other organizations that he was i 



associated with, to your knowledge? 
A Not to my knowledge 
Q That is my ques 



rjNCLASSIflEO 



Now, if you would look at the memorandum dated 
March 19, 1986, to Dan Conrad from Eric Singer with regard to 



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UNCLASSIRED 



480 



"projections on tomorrow's vote in the House," which is Pages 
78810 through 78812. 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Q Did you receive that memorandum on or around March 
19, 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this projection an example of the type of 
services that Mr. Cameron's organization performed for NEFL? 

A Yes . 

Q Who was Mr. Singer? 

A He worked for him, a stat person. 

Q Turning to the next item, which is a memorandum 
from Mr. Cameron to you, dated March 19, 1986, which has your 
numbers 76222 through 76223; did you receive that memorandum 
on or about March 19, 19867 

A Yes. 

Q Nas that a sumnary of the types of activities and 
meatings that Mr. Cameron's organization was performing for 
th« Channell organizations? 

A Y«S. 

Q Turning to the next Item, which is a letter from 
Mr. Channell to Mr. Miller dated April 15, 1986, were you 
aware that Mr. Channell had sent this letter to Mr. Miller? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
Y«8. 



UNCLASSinED 



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iUSSIFIED 



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Q Did you draft the letter? 

A No. 

Q Who did? 

A I don't know. 

Q Now, there is a list of subcontractors on Page 2 of 
the letter, and then on the first page, it indicates that they 
should be notified that all Sentinel financial arrangements 
with them would be terminated on April 15. 

A Yes . 

Q What was Mr. Artiano's specific role as a subcon- 
tractor, in the context of the preceding page? 

A I don't know that he had one. 

Q Why was he included in this letter? 

A Well, it was meant to be a catch-all letter to just 
tell everyone they weren't going to get any more money from 
us . 

Q What services did Hr. Artiano perform with respect 
to the Central American Freedom Program? 

A As I said, I eun not sure that he did any. 

Q What services did Steve Cook perform? 

A Hell, he is the manager of Edelman. 

Q So just brj^^ly^^ he performed public relation 
services? 

A PR services. Sure. Marty Artiano made arrangements 
for us to meet with people, the President, things like that. 



fly, he performed publ 

taSSIflED 



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UNSIASSIFIED 



482 



Q And David Fischer ia listed after Mr. Cook; how 
would you describe his services in this program? Similar to 
the services of Mr. Artiano? 
A Yes. 

What services did Edie Frazer perform? 
Grass roots letter writing campaign. 
And Bob and Adam Goodman? 
Advertising. 

Dan far^ndah t? ^<u^^sc.^'MK 
Lobbying. 

How did his services differ from the services of 
Mr. Cameron? 

A Well, they were very similar; he just knew different 



people. 
Q 

the way? 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 

Frazer? 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 



Why is Mr. Caaeron not listed in this letter, by 

I couldn't tell you. 

vniat services were perfomed by Jack Lichenstein? 

Grass roots letter writing. 

His services were similar to the services of Ms. 



Yes. 



EMZm 



What services were performed by Penn Kembla? 

I think lobbying, as well. 

Well, if you would look back at the memorandum from 



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Mr. Cameron, the March 19 memorandum, the letterhead indicates 
that Penn Kemble was the Chairman of the Center for Democracy 
in the Americas. Does that suggest to you that Penn Kemble 
was really used there as a name synonymous with Bruce Cameron? 

A I don't know. 

Q You don't know one way or the other? 

A Well, I mean he had his own organization, as well. 

Q What organization was that? 

A PRODEHCA. 

Q Was PROOEMCA involved in the Central American 
Freedom Program? 

A I don't recall. I would have to go back and check. 

Q Finally, what was the role of the UNO office in 
this program? 

A I didn't think they were involved. 

Q Do you see them listed on the second page? 

A I see them listed. I didn't draft the letter. 

Q All right. Turning, Mr. Conrad, to the mailgram 
dated i^ril 17, 1986, froa Cliff Smith to Jerry E. Finger; do 
you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q That mailgram refers to a briefing at the White 
House to be held 

A Yes. 

Q In the mailgram, it states that "during and after 



OD April i^V^-^S^liSK ^^ ^°^^ 



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ONClilSSIFlEO 



484 



the dinner, a special project to specifically support the 
President's goals in regard to Nicaragua will be discussed 
and undertaken by the group." DO you know what that refers 
to? 

A No. 

Q Have you seen this before? 

A No. 

Q Did you review correspondence and mailgrams that 
were sent out by the fundraisers? 



In some cases . 
Not as a matter of course? 
No. 

You never saw a mailgram similar to this. 
Would Hr. Smith have drafted this on his own? 
It is entirely possible. 
You had not role in it? 
No. 

Now, turning to the next item, it is a letter from 
tnim -'- you dated May 5, 1986, on the letterhead of^ 



the 



minute? 



Company — 
THE WITNESS! Could we ao off the record for a 



MR. FRYMAN t Off the record 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN I Back on the record. 




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ilCLSSSIflED 



485 



BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q The letter dated May 5, Mr. Conrad, refers to 
consulting research and resource information from the Gulf 
and Caribbean Foundation, and asks for a contribution of 
S5,000. Then the following page is a memorandum dated June 
10, which appears to be an agreement with the Kigehondahl 
Company. 

What is the difference in the services performed by 
the Ki irthend a h l Company and the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation? 

A I could not tell you. 

Q You considered them synonymous or the same? 

A I don't know. 

Q Was it the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation that was 
being compensated for the lobbying efforts of Mr. Ki^handahl 
in the Spring of 1986 that you have referred to, and that are 
referred to in the letter that we have just discussed, dated 
April 15, 19867 

A We would have to look at the accounting records. I 
don't know. 

Q Returning to the memorandum dated June 10, 1986, 
which is a consulting arrangement, or a memorandum which 
confirms a consulting arrangement for a 12-month period for a 



fee of $3,500 a month. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



What services was Mr. Kireh e wdahl to perform 



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pursuant to that retainsr agreement? 

A To be available for consultations, discussions on 
political matters. 

Q And the following page concerns a monthly budget 
for the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation, and that is headed 
"Your request concerning monthly costs of operating Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation's presence in Washington. ■ Is that an 
agreement, or an amount, or an understanding that is separate 
from the retainer agreement with Mr. RiiLliBliUalil? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that relate to? 

A Spitz and Dan got into some conversations about us 
taking over the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation, and this was 
an estimate as to how much it would cost to do that. 

Q What became of those discussions? 

A They didn't go anywhere. 

Q Did you or Mr. Channell ever discuss that prospect 
with Colonel North? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Turning the next item, which is a letter to Mr. 
Channell from Mr. Cameron dated June 12, 1986, forwarding two 
proposals; have you seen that- letter before? 

A (Witness peruses 
No. 



(HASSIFIED 



Were you familiar with the content of that letter 



679 



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and, by that, I mean a proposed grant of $20,000 for the 
Center for Democracy in the Americas, and $80,000 for the 
Citizens for a Democratic Foreign Policy? 

A No. 

Q You had not been aware of any such proposed grants? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is a memo to David 
Fisher dated August 25, 1986, which is headed "Draft memo for 
Don Regan from Spitz Channell," and it has your control pages 
33006-07; do you know who drafted or who prepared this draft 
memo? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
No. 

Q Have you seen this memo before today? 

A No. 

Q You have never seen this? 

A No. 

Q w«r« you aware that it had been sent? 

A NO. 

Q NOW, in the menorandun, in the third paragraph, 
there is the statement that "Over $2,500,000 went to the 
television campaign alone." .What did you understand was the 
amount spent on the television caapaign? Is that amount 
approximately correct? 

A I don't think so. 



UNCUSSinED 



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Q How is it incorrect. 

A Wall, I think it was more like a million dollars, 
but I would have to check my financial records to be sure. 

Q Do you know the source of this number of $2,500,000? 

A I don't have any idea. 

Q There is also a statement that "$750,000 was spent 
by Sentinel directly." 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know if that number is correct? 

A No. 

Q "No," you don't know, or "no," it is not correct? 

A It is not correct. 

Q How is it incorrect? 

A It is inflated. 

Q What is the correct amount that you understand? 

A I don't know. 

Q That is more than the amount expended? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know the source of this number? 

A NO. 

Q Turning to the September 5, 1986, memorandum from 
Mr. Miller to Mr. Channell concerning professional fees of 

David Fisher. There came a point, did there not, when NEPL 

c 
paid the fees directly to Mr. Fisher r^t|^i|^^ 

paid through Mr. Miller's organizational' 



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489 



A I think that happened on two occasions. 

Q Only two occasions? 

A As I recall. 

Q Do you know the reason why it happened on those two 
occasions? 

A It was a mistake. 

Q Is this memoranduin one of those mistakes? 

A No. It would be — this isn't a mistake. 

Q But do you understand this memorandum indicates 
that NEPL should pay Mr. Fischer directly on these two 
occasions? 

A No. 

Q This is just a billing from IBC for fees that they 

have paid to Mr. Fischer? 

A Well, I don't know what their arrangement is, but 
it is a bill from IBC to us for his fees, so we were then to 
make out a ch*ck to IBC. 

Q All right. Turning to 57156, which is headed 
"Olson Furniture' and has a list of items which totals 
$1,915; what does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
I don't know. 

Q Did NEPL purchase any furniture from Mr. Olson or 
Eric Olson? 

A It may have. 



U'.llflhJUiriLU 



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490 



Q You don't know one way or the other? 

A I don't know. 

Q You have no direct knowledge of that? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is a mailgram dated 
September 9, 1986, from Mr. Channell to Colonel North, 
concerning the defeat of Congressman Barnes. Had you been 
aware that such a mailgram had been sent? 

A No. 

Q Had you seen that mailgram before today? 

A No. 

Q Had you discussed the transmission of such a 
mailgram with anyone? 

A No. 

Q Turning to the handwritten invoice from Eric Olson 
dated October 6, 1986, for $10,000; what services are you 
aware of that Mr. Olson performed during October 1986? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Do you know of anything he did in that month? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Do you know of anything he ever did for NEPL? 

A Yes. 

Q What? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



A Consulted about computer equipment, our computer 
system and our computer accounting, how we should organize 



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UNCUSSIHED 



491 



for that and so on. That is his field. 

Q Do you know how many hours he spent on those 
particular areas? 

A No. 

Q Do you know of anything else he did? 

A Well, he was constantly giving us advice on the 
general — what would I say — political thrust — comment, 
in general, on what was going on in our organization. We 
would often speak with him about what we were planning to do, 
or what had just happened, and he would make suggestions 
about how we might handle various items . 

Q This was over what period of time that there would 
be this general consultation? 

A Oh, a long period. Two years. 

Q Over a two-year period? 

A Two and a half years. 

Q And during this two or two and a half year period, 
he was employed in another full time job, was he not? 

A Yes. 

Q That was as a manageoent consultant? 

A Yes. 



Q With a major accounting firro? 

A Yes. 

Q And the consulting with respect to the computer 



:ounting firm? 

ONCUSSIFIED 



systems that you referred to, what time period did that 



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492 



consulting occur? 

A Wall, after we moved, so after August of 1986. 
Q Until what point? 

A Well, it continued up through — it continued into 
1987, I don't know how long in 1987. 

Q And you have no idea how many hours he spent on 
that? 

A No. 

MS. LUBIN: Tom, do you want to explain to me what 
possible relevance this has to anything in the mandate? 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, no, I don't particularly want to 
explain this. 

MS. LUBIN: Well, then I think I will cut in; I 
don't see any. 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, I will ask the questions and you 
can direct him not to answer if you want to. 

MS. LUBIN: You can do that. You can save it to 
th« end or you can drop it. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q During the months beginning in August of 1986, when 
you understand that Mr. Olson was performing some services 
with respect to consulting about computers; during this entire 
period, he was also employed Jj\_a_ full Jiiae. doii—h^ another 
organization, was he not? 

MS. LUBIN: We will save the question until the 



mmm 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



493 



end, at best. 

MR. FRYMAN: Are you directing him not to answer 
the question? 

MS. LUBIN: Yea, I am. 

I don't see the relevance. I don't see that it is 
within your scope — any possible argument, but you have 
declined to make any such argument. I don't see it. We are 
not here to answer all your questions about the world at 
large. I will be glad to reconsider if you wish to make any 
points as to why I should. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Turning, Mr. Conrad, to the letter agreement dated 
h/o-ft'ige'- 
October IS, 1986, between Mof t*nfe» and Bragg, and the 

Channell Corporation; do you see that document? 

A Yes. 

Q What services were to be performed by M o f s inge y and 

Bragg, or Motiinger Conmunications, Inc., I guess, pursuant 

to that agreement? 

A To give us advice and counsel. 

About what? 

About anything we cared to discuss with them. 

How were they selected to perform such services? 

I don't know how to answer that. 



Was their retention discussed, w 



to your knowledge? 




one! North, 



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23 

24 

MC. 

25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



494 



No. 

It was never discussed by you? 

Not that I recall. 

Was it discussed with Mr. Miller? 

Yes. 

Did he suggest that you hire them? 

I don't recall whether he did or not. 

c 
Was it discussed with Mr. Fisher? 



Possibly. 

Was it discussed with Mr. Artiano? 
I don't think so. 
You are not sure? 

No. I mean we knew who Me4s inger was. There were 
many connections . 

Q And you decided — 

We just decided to consult with him. 
Decided to start paying him $20,000 a month? 
Well, that was his charge. 



A 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 
pay it? 
A 

Q Turning to the bank slip dated — or that appears 
to have your number stamp 35276/ what does that relate to? 



On what was that charge based? 

You will have to ask Mr. M of a ing e r . 

But that is what he asked for, and you agreed to 



Yes. 



UNClASSlflED 



687 



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.nc 
25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



495 



Does it relate to a loan that the Channell Corporation had 
with Suburban Bank, or what is that document? 

A You have to ask the Accounting Department. 
Do you know? 
No. 

Have you seen this before? 

No. It looks to me like it is for a safety deposit 
box, but I couldn't possibly tell you. 

Q That was going to be a question that X had. Did 
Channell Corporation have a safe deposit box at Suburban Bank? 

A I have no idea. This is the first time I have ever 
seen this document. 

Q Do you know what 'Suburban Bank" refers to? 

A No. 

Q Directing your attention to the memo to Cliff/Spitz 
from Steve, dated December 2, 1986, with regard to the 
"Goodman/RAM films, balance due." Are you familiar with the 
subject matter of that memorandum? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever seen that memorandum before? 

A No. 

Q And you know nothing about the matters discussed in 



it? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



A No. 

Q Turning to the invoice from H e isiwq e r and Braaa 



688 



ed4 96 



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24 



MC^K NVOHTWO CO., MC 
JOT C Suffi. N E 25 



dated December 16, 1986, directed to you, for consulting 
services for the period December 15, 1986, through January 
|15, 1987, in the amount of $20,000; what services to you 
recall that No f dinger Communications performed for that 
amount of money? 

A I don't recall. 

Q You don't recall anything that they did? 

A Right. 

Q Who was the - Mui a ing e i firm primarily working with 

within the NEPL organization? Were they working primarily 
with you or with Mr. Channel, or with someone else? 

A At different times, different people. 

Q At this point in tine? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Directing your attention to the invoice from the 
Kirehendahi Company, dated December 22, 1986, for S12,000 for 
services rendered for December 1986. What services do you 
recall that that company rendered in that period? 

A I don't know. 

Q You can think of nothing. 

A No. I mean it was a contract for many months. 

Q Turning to the letter, or draft letter, dated 
January 13, 1987, to Robert Goodman, on the stationery of 
ACT, concerning an audit regarding the account with the 
Robert Goodman AGency; were you aware that such an audit was 




689 



ed497 



fwssife 



497 



being performed? 

A Well, I knew it was a mess, but I didn't know what 



3 ithey were doing to correct it. 



MT C SnlR. N E 



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Q What do you mean, "it was a mess"? 
A Well, they didn't know — the Goodman Agency and 
our organizations had gotten all confused about billing and 
payment, and all of that, because it was supposed to be very 
strict and it wasn't. It was sloppy. This was an attempt to 
straighten it out. 

Q How was it supposed to be very strict? 
A Well, only some ads could b« paid for by certain 
organizations, legally. 

Q What do you mean by that? 

A If it was for political purposes, for or against a 
candidate, or something, then we had to pay for the ads from 
our PAC; and if it was for, for exanple, the Central American 
Freedom Program, for public education, we could do it through 
NBPL. If it was for lobbying for a bill before Congress, we 
had to do it through Sentinel; and the American Conservative 
Trust State Election iv^^a^«l<£ At^^tPUnAiction but not 



lui'" 



ssffe- 



airing. 

And it was very confused — they were very confused, 
and as were we, about which ads could be paid for by which 
organization, and which costs could be paid for by which 
organizations. So they would bill us under one organization, 



690 



ed498 

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null lu u ii ma eo.. mc. 
MI C Sum. N E 25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



498 



and we would have to pay it under another one. it was just 
hopelessly confused because of the quantity of ads that we 
did. 

Q Who determined which organization should pay for 
which ad? 

A That depends on the instance involved, you know, 
the specific invoice involved. 

Q I mean as a general matter, is that something that 
you consulted with counsel on, or is that a determination 
that you made or Mr. Channel 1 made? 

MS. LUBIN; Tom, I am going to ask that you put 
this off until I have had a chance to review your mandate 
again, and if we come back tomorrow, I will make sure to 
review it tonight. 

MR. FRYMAN! Off the record. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, you indicated that this had been a 
continuing problem, that is having the Goodman Agency bill 
the correct Channell organization for a particular 
advertisement . 
A Yes. 



UNCUSSIHED 



Q Now, this letter that we're looking at, dated 
January 13, 1987, concerns, in part, correction of invoices 



691 



ed4 99 



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I CO.. MC. 

25 



liNCUSSIflEO 



499 



issued in 1985. Do you know why there was a delay until 
January 1987 concerning the correction of the 1985 invoices? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

If I recall, it wasn't discovered until much later. 

Q Do you recall how it was discovered? 

A I am not sure. 

Q Who discovered it? And by "it, ■ I take it we are 
referring to the billing of the incorrect organization? 

A Right. The bills had all been paid, but we didn't 
discover that they had been incorrectly billed to the wrong 
organization — in other words, what we should have done was 
to send back the bill to them and say, "Please bill the 
correct organization." But instead of doing that, what we 
did was to pay the bill from the correct organization, in 
many instances. And when we wanted to get this all straight, 
then we had to go back and resurrect the whole thing. 

Q Was there any event that prompted the discovery of 
the problem? 

A Maybe. I don't remember. I don't remember why 
this happened. 

Q Do you recall the approximate time of the discovery 
of the problem? 

A Well, obviously before the 13th of January. 

Q Was it in late 1986? 

A Quite possibJy. I don't recall. 



r ^ne ijcn oi January. 

UNCLASSIFIED 



692 



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MUXR MVOimO CO.. wc 
M7 C Sam. N t 25 

VtdMfaa. O C 1000] 
(2011 111 n il 



UNCLASSm 



SCO 



Q Now, the next documents, with your control numbers 
60534 and 60694, are these examples of invoices issued by 
your organization. Public Management Institute? 

A Yes. 

Q And there were a number of others, were there not? 

A Yes. 

Q Directing your attention to the letter on 
International Business Communications stationery, to Dan from 
Steve, and it has your control number 27087, and there is 
another copy that is 27088; who is Steve? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

I don't remember his last name at the minute. 

Q Was he an IBC employee? 

A Yes. 

Q What was th« approximate date of this letter or 
memorandum? 

A I don't know. I don't even Icnow what year it is. 

Q Now, there is a reference in the second line to the 
"imCC." What is that? 

A National Republican Congressional Committee. I 
don't know. 

MS. LUBIN: Does tttls have anything to do with 
Nicaragua? 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, let me ask Mr. Conrad'. 



UNCLASSIHED 



693 



edSOl 



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I NVOVTWQ CO.. MC. 

^.™^ s E 2 5 



iwssm 



BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Does this list have anything to do with Nicaragua? 

Not that I know of . 



What does it relate to? 

Just open seats in the House of Representatives. 
And these are unrelated to the Nicaragua vote. 
Right. 

The priority targets? 

It is just targets for defeat and targets- for 
election. It is not — or my understanding was, when it was 
prepared, it was not a list of people having anything to do 
with Nicaragua. 

Q Now, Mr. Conrad, turning to the memorandum headed 
"Central American Freedom Program, " which begins on Page 
33546, and appears to continue through 33559. You have seen 
this memorandum before, have you not? 
A Tea. 

Q Who prepared this memorandum? 

A I believe Richard Hiller, or someone in his shop. 
Q Were you involved in the preparation of it? 
A I made some suggestions for improving it, I think. 
Q Was this developed in early 1985? 



A 1985? No. 

Q When was this developed? 

A I don't know. 



ffiWSSlFIED 



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edS02 

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IM10 IM WJ UIM a CO.. «c. 
m C Sittn St 25 



ONCUSSIFIEO 



502 



Q What was the purpose of developing this? 

A Oh, it is a proposal to show to different 
contributors . 

Q To tell them what you are going to be doing? 

A Sure. 

Q Who was involved in developing this, to your 
knowledge, other than Mr. Miller and other employees of IBC? 

A I think they did it. 

Q Do you know if Colonel North was involved in 
preparing this? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Do you know if Elliott Abrams was? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Was Mr. Fischer? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Mr. Artlanc? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Anyone in the White House, other than Colonel North? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q Is this memorandum, to your knowledge, an accurate 
description of how the Central American Freedom Program was 
expected to operate? 

MS. LUBIN: Do you want to atop and read it? 
MR. FRYMAN: I thoaiflbt^ .U« Sfiid. ]>e.waf ^Affiliar with 
it. 



ic 




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25 



ONMSSIflED 



503 



MS. LUBIN: Well, it has been some time since he 
had read it, I think. 

THE WITNESS: Basically, I believe so, yes. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Generally, did the program operate as described in 
this memorandum? 

MS. LUBIN: If you are going to ask him to continue, 
he will have to read it. 

MR. FRYMAN: Yes. Take your time and review this. 
(Witness peruses document.) 
THE WITNESS: Okay. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Generally, did the program function as described in 
this memorandum? 

A Well, somewhat. I don't know "generally." We did 
as much as w« could with what we had. 

Q In what significant ways did it differ from the 
daacription in this memorandum? 

A Well, the budget, of course, was quite a bit 
different, as it turned out. We invested far less of this in 
it and, as a result, several of the items that were projected 
to be dona were not done. Sa. I would need a more detailed 
time to review this before I could answer thatwith any 

Q were there any significant activities of the 



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t07 C Satti. N E 25 

VutajAffton D C 2C002 



ED 



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OLHOui 

program that were undertaken that are not described in this 
memorandufli? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

None that I can recall. I think this covers 
everything . 

Q It is your recollection that the principal author 
of this memorandum is Mr. Miller? 
A Yes. 

Q Now, turning to the pages in this exhibit headed 
"Nicaragua Effort, Targeted Congressional Representatives," 
which — 

THE WITNESS: I am sorry. Could we go off the 
record a minute- 

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q What is the source of this document? 
A I have no idea. 
Q Have you seen this before? 
A Never ■ 

Q were you aware that -there were Nicaragua effort 
Targeted Congressional representatives? 

A Well, we made eternal lists of possible tarqets, is 
probably a better way of putting it 




697 



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ICO.. MC 

25 



505 



Q Who prepared the lists, that you are aware of? 
When you say, "We made lists, " is that you and Mr. Channell? 

A We did sometimes. StAri K ir e h e ndahl did, Bruce 
Cameron did. Maybe Penn Kemble did, I can't recall. I think 
Rich Miller did. 

Q Was Oliver North involved in that? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q What was a "targeted representative"? what did 
that mean? 

A Someone who was a possible swing vote. 

Q Then you would focus efforts on those individuals? 
I mean was that the objective of identifying the target? 

A I think it is probably better to say we wanted to 
focus our efforts on their districts. I don't think we did 
very much of anything to influence them. 

Q How would you focus efforts on their districts? 

A Send our speakers there, run ads there. 

Q Buy television ads in those districts? 

A Yes . 

Q Those media markets? 

A Yes. 

Q But this particular list, which is Pages 81637-38, 
as indicated by your control number, you do recall ever 
seeing this before? 

A No. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



698 



ed506 



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107 C Sutn N E 25 

Tuhuiroo C 10001 



iassm 



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Q Okay- Mr. Conrad, I want to ask you to identify 
some names. Who is Warren Coates, C-0-A-T-E-S? 

A I don't know what his position. I think he is a 
high-up person, high level executive, manager at the IMF, I 
believe. 

Q That would be the International Monetary Fund? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason your or Mr. Channell met with 
him on several occasions in 1985? 

A He is a friend. 

Q Did these meetings have anything to do with the 

operations of NEPL? 

A No. 

Q They were personal or social? 

A I believe so. 

Q Who is Doug France, F-R-A-N-C-E7 

A Computer consultant. 

Q Is he employed by any firm? 

A He has his own firm. 

Q Did he perform services for NEPL? 

A Yes. 

Q What sort of servic^sl 

A Oh, all kinds of services. He, I think, bought our 
initial equipment apd all of our subsequent equipment, put in 
our network, and helped develop our data base, and just did a 



,. KiiiSsreo 



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M^Un NVON^MS CO.. MC. 
MT C Stmi. N I 25 



UNSLSSSIFIEB 



507 



huga amount of work for us . 

Q How was he compensated? 

A On an hourly basis, also on a retainer basis. 

Q Here these checks payable to Doug France 
individually? 

A No. 

Q How was he paid? 

A Performance Consulting. 

Q That is his company? 

A I believe so, yes. 

Q And he performed extensive services? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall how much he was paid, or approximately 
how much? 

A I have no idea. I would have to add it up. A lot, 
but I don't know how much. 

Q Who is Mike Luria, L-U-R-I-A? 

A A graphic artist. 

Q Is he a free lance artist? 

A Yes. Well, I think he was with a firm. 

Q Do you know his firm? 

A Rainbow Graphics. '- 

Q Did you meet with him in 1985 in connection with 
services he was to perform for NEPL? L*^;V;.| t-- \ Virion 

A Yes. '" "-t/ 



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n r 20002 



OfiOLSSSiFiED 



508 



Q Was he compensated for such services? 

A Yes. 

Q Were those checks payable to Rainbow Graphics? 

A I believe so. 

Q who is Scott Taylor? 

A I don't recall. 

Q I won't mark this as an exhibit, but I will just 
show you a copy of an appointment calendar, which has been 
produced by your counsel, with the identification number 
1032, and ask you if that refreshes your recollection about 
who Scott Taylor is? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
No. 

Q Who is George Victorson? 

A A graphic artist. 

Q By whom is he employed? 

A I don't know the name of the firm. 

Q Did he perform services for NEPL? 

A Tes. 

Q Who is Grace Muchmore? 

A A friend of mine. 

Q Did Grace Muchmore perform any services for NEPL? 

A No. 

Q Were your meetings with^Grace^Mjjp|miffg:^mjxely of a 

social nature? 




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trying t 


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her 


for? 


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way? 




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MXB) ifuwuia CO.. nc 
«4fift»<NE 25 




Q 


Va*ar» C U002 







Well, not all the time. Some of the time I was 
trying to hire her, but she eventually decided not to. 
To work for NEPL? 
Right. 

But she never did perform any services for NEPL? 
No. 
What is her field? What were you trying to hire 

To do fundraising. 

Fundraising. Who is Steve Kurtz, K-U-R-T-Z7 

I don't recall. 

Who is John Lutz? 

An employee of NEPL. 

What was his position? 

Fundraiser. 

Who is John Cook? 

A friend of mine. 

Old he perform any services for NEPL? 

No. 

Was he involved in the Nicaragua activities in any 

mm 



No. 



ASSIFIED 



Who is Maria Handy? M-A-R-L-A, H-A-N-D-Y. 
The name is familiar, but I can't place it. 
Who is Bob Stuber, S-T-U-B-E-R? 



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' NVONTSM CO.. MC 
.o^NE 25 



UNCLASSIRED 



510 



A I can't recall. 

Q who is Stephanie Mann? 

A I don't recall. 

Q I show you an appointment calendar, produced by 
your counsel, for March 26, 1986, it has the identification 
number 1339, and there is an entry for Stephanie Mann, and 
under that the initials "CDI." Does that refresh your 
recollection as to who Stephanie Mann is? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Who is George Bussey? 

A Oh, wait a in. ;e — CDI is a computer company. I 
just remembered. I have forgotten the name of it, but they 
have services of what's available in the Securities Exchange 
Commission, who owns what stock and stuff. 

Q And she is an employee of CDI, you believe? 

A Yes. 

What was the reaaon that you met with her? 

I wanted to see how their computer service worked. 

Did you retain them? 

He bought a subscription to their publications. 



Q 
A 

Q 

A 

instead. 
Q 
A 



Who is George Buascy, B-U-S-S-E-Y7 

Our stockbroker, one of our two stockbrokers at 



E.F. Hutton. 

Q Who is Robert Dean? U'lltHLnUUll 



icO 



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M^^n nvonTwo co.. wc 

MT C Scrm. N E 25 



ONCUSSIFIED 



511 



A He is the owner of Dynasty Limousine Service, 
Company — whatever it is . 

Q That is a company you used at NEPL? 

A Yes . - 

Q Who is Ed Miles? 

A He used to be Treasurer of the American Conservative 
Trust, and he was with Coopers and Lybrand. 

Q What services, if any, did he perform for the 
Channel organizations, other than being Treasurer of the 
American Conservative Trust? 

A I am not sure the extent to which he performed 
them, but his firm -- he got us all involved, with Coopers 
and Lybrand, helping us figure out a new accounting system to 
put into our organization. 

Q Was Mr. Olson ever employed by Coopers and Lybrand? 

A No. 

Q Who is D. Fish? 

A I haven't any idea. 

Q I show you an appointment calendar for April 9, 
1986, which has control number 1357, and there is a reference 
to D. Fish. Would that be David Fischer? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Well, maybe. It is possible. I do not recall. 

Q That doesn't cefr^p^^qi^^ '¥*5ft^X*ff^rf'ik 4? ^° ^"y- 
other D. Fish? 



immm 



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512 



A No. 

Q Who is Joel Lenne, L-E-N-N-E? 

A Well, I don't know that person, either. 

Q I show you a calendar dated April 10, 1986, which 
has your control number 1358, and there is an indication of a 
conference call you had with Joel Lenne. Does that refresh 
your recollection? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
No. Where is Area Code 603? 

Q Do you thinX that could be Joel "Levine"? 

A Maybe . 

Q Does that refresh your recollection? 

A Where is Area Code 603? 

Q I don't know. 

A If I knew that, it might give me a better clue. I 
don't recall. 

Q Who is Kim Brenner, B-R-E-N-N-E-R? 

A She is a fundraiser with an organization called the 
Private Sector Council. 

g What was her relationship to NEPL7 

A we wanted her to consult with us about how to raise 
money for our SDI project. 

Q She had nothing to do with Nicaragua. 



Who is Joe Coates? 



UNCUSSIRED 



705 



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Mmsim 



513 



A He is the principal of a firm called J.F. Coates, 
Incorporatsd, which is a futures research firm. 

Q What was the reason for meeting with him? 

A We wanted him to do a study called "Future of 

Conservatism. " 

Q Did that have anything to do with the Nicaragua 

activities? 

A No. 

Q Who is B.C. Grayson? 

A He is a fundraiser with Private Sector Council. 

Q What was the reason for meeting with him? 

A Same reason as meeting with Kim Brenner. 

Q Again, nothing to do with Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Q Who is George Boetler, B-0-E-T-L-E-R? 

A (No audible response.) 

Q I will show you a calendar for ^ril 29, 1986, 
which has your control number 1380. There is an entry for a 
n««tlng at 10:00 o'clock; does that refresh your recollection?! 

A (Witness peruses docuamnt.) 

I just cannot renember who he is. 

Q Who is David Finger? 

A The name does not — 



Or Finzer, maybe; F-I-N-Z-E 
I don ' t remember . 



IINCLASSIFIEO 



706 



•d514 



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.MC. 

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UNCLASSIFIED 



514 



Q Who is Mr. Carr, C-A-R-R7 

A I don't know. 

Q Who is Steve Kelly? 

A I don't remember. 

Q Or a Steve Keller, does that -- 

A Oh, Steve Keller, yei. He is a professor of 
speech, I think, at George Washington University. 

Q What was the reason for meeting with him? 

A He developed a training program for our fundraisers. 

Q Who is Fernando OeBaca? 

A I don't know. 

Q I show you a calendar for August 22, 1986, which 
has your control number 1514. I direct you to the entry for 
Fernando DeBaca; does that refresh your recollection at all? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
I don't recall. 

Q Who is John McLaughlin? 

A Jane McLaughlin. 

Q I direct your attention to the same document for an 
entry with respect to a meeting with John McLaughlin. 

A Oh, I an sorry. He is — it is a polling outfit, 
Finkelstein, Author Finke_l8teln and ^ompany_,_pr^ Associates, 
or whatever it i< 

Q And he works for the Finkelstein organization: 

A Yes. 



:hor Finkelstein and Company, or I 

■ UNCLASSIFIED 



707 



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itujn tm o nnia co.. nc 
WT c Sawi. N e 



MS. LUBIN: Is this a convenient time to break? 

MR. FRYMAN: Yes. Mr. Conrad asked that we break 
at approximately 4:45 today. 

You have indicated that it would be convenient to 
continue tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. FRYMAN: Thank you. Off the record. 

(Whereupon, at 4:45 p.m, the taking of the 
deposition was recessed, to reconvene tomorrow, June 25, 
1987, at 9:00 a.m. ) 



ymissiFiED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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V>1 CSfiTCi. N( 



CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT 
I have read the foragoing 155 pagas, which contain 
a correct transcript of the answers made by me to the 
questions therein recorded. U'%^\, Ce^XH-^^Sr-y^^ 






DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 



of 



Subscribed and %rarn to before me this 
, 1987. 



_day 



Notary Public in and for: 



My commission expires: 



\!HS;iffl^lM 



709 



ICLASSIFIED 



517 



M> C S«n. N L 



CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER 
I, Terry Barhan, the officer before Whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing transcript 
was duly sworn by me; that the tescimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereaftrer reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my supervision; that said deposition transcript is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action. 




terry B«ttham<*^otary Public in 
and for the District of Columbia 



Hy conmission expires Hay IS, 1989. 






710 




JC--^.-.^^^-i-,- A-. „„ ,.„ 



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ed517 



MtXOt RtrOnTINO CO . MC. 
!07 C Scrtn. N £ 
Wuhtafton. C 20003 



UNCUSSIFIED 



517 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Thursday, June 25, 1987 

Washington, D.C. 

Continued deposition of DANIEL LYNN CONRAD, taken 

on behalf of the Select Committees above cited, pursuant to 

notice, commencing at 9:35 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart 

Senate Office Building, before Terry Barham, a notary public 

in and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 

For the House Select Committee: 

THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. 
Staff Counsel 

SPENCER OLIVER, Esq. 
Associate Counsel 

KEN BUCK, Esq. 

Assistant Minority Counsel 

For the Senate Select Committee: 

THOMAS McGOUGH, Esq. 

Associate Counsel partially Declassified/Released on 



under provisions of E.O. 12356 
by N. Menan, National Security Council 



UNCussra 



712 



ed518 



MUBI WFOKTMO CO.. MC. 
)07 C Strttt, N E 
Wuhinitixi. O C 10002 



For the deponent: 



UNCLASSIFIED 



518 



ELAINE LUBIN, Esq. 

Swidler & Berlin 

Suite 300 

3000 K Street, N.W. 

Washington, D.C. 20007-3841 

CONTENTS 

Examination by counsel for 

House Select Coiranittee (Mr. Fryman) 

EXHIBITS 

Conrad Exhibits 



Page 

519 

Marked 
11 
12 



UNCUSSIHED 



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ONCLASSIRED 



519 



PROCEEDI^NGS 
Whereupon, 

DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 
resumed as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
MR. FRYMAN: I would ask the Reporter to mark as 
Conrad Deposition 11 for identification a group of telephone 
message slips which have been produced by counsel for the 
Channell organization. 

(The documents referred to were 
marked for identification as 
Conrad Deposition Exhibit 11.) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, I show you Conrad Deposition Exhibit 11 
for identification. I direct your attention to the first 
page, which has your counsel's control number 19255, and the 
message at the top "To CRC, from Ollie North," dated 1/27. it 
indicates that a "Mr. Harper will be calling after 3:00 
o'clock. " 

Were you aware that that call had been received at 
the NEPL offices from 
A No. 
Q Did Mr. Channell tell you that he had spoken with 



mmmiw 



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ONCLA 



Vil i 



520 



Mr. North about a call from Mr. Harper? 

A No. 

Q I direct your attention to the second page of this 
exhibit, which has your counsel's control number 19226, and 
the message "To Dan," dated March 4, "From Fawn. ' Is it 
correct that the Dan in that message refers to you? 

A I think so. 

Q And you understand that "Fawn" is Fawn Hall? 

A Yes. 

Q Would you read the message that appears on that 
slip? 

A "North said March 20th would be too late to talk to 
donors because the vote is on the 17th. Has to be done 
before the 17th to be effective." 

Q What did you understand by the statement in that 
message that "March 20th would be too late to talk to donors"? 

A We wanted to hold a briefing on March 20th. 

Q Right . 

A So he is saying the date is inappropriate because 
the vote will already have been taken on the 17th. 

Q So the substance of the message is that it would 
not be an effective fundraising effort to have a briefing 
after the vote had been taken? 

A Well, not necessarily _fundraising. It is just the 
briefing itself 



St necessarily fundraisin 

UNCUSSiFlED 



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■UJR m fiM \ m\i CO.. wc 

J07 C Strm. N J 2 5 

Vidlillinxi. D C 20002 
(202) M<-MM 



UNCLASSiF!! 



521 



Q The purpose of these briefings for your contributors 
was to aid in the fundraising efforts, was it not? 

A Well, it is not the only purpose. 

Q What other purposes were there? 

A To get them involved in the issue, bring them up to 
date on what is currently happening. 

Q And the reason for getting them involved was to 
facilitate the fundraising, was it not? 

A Well, do all roads lead to fundraising? 

Q Well, for your efforts, they do, do they not? 

A Well, I mean it is a means to an end, as far as I 
am concerned. 

Q So the briefings were a means to the end of raising 
funds? 

A Among other things . 

Q And to have a briefing after the vote would not be 
an effective at fundraising; is that the substance of this 
message? 

A The substance of the message is that it is inappro- 
priate to have a briefing just after the vote. 

Q Do you recall receiving this message 

A I don't. 

Q Do you recall having a discussion with that subject 



matter with Colonel North; i.e^, the timing of the briefing 



and its relation to the vote? 





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507 C SuCTi. N E 2 5 

WuhiiiiToa. DC 20002 



t- -> i< j^l 




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'4jL A Well, I had discussions with him on several timing 
issues, and I don't remember the specific one. We often 
asked him for briefings, briefing dates. I mean this is just 
one of the 400 reasons why we didn't have one at that 
particular time. 

Q What other types of timing issues did you discuss 
with him? 

A Perhaps I misspoke myself. I meant to say "schedu- 
ling." So we are talking about we would like to have a 
briefing on such and such a day, and we would call him to 
check his schedule. Well, as I said, one of several hundred 
reasons why he couldn't do it on a particular day. 

Q I direct your attention to the third page of this 
exhibit, which has your control number 19145. There is a 
message in the upper left-hand quarter of the page from 
Kathleen Hart. Who is Kathleen Hart? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 
I am afraid I don't recall. 

Q The message indicates that it "To Phil." Do you 
know who Phil would be? 

A Phil Meo. 

Q You believe it refers to Phil Meo? 



He was an ei 



date of the message? 



mU^SIFIED 



11, 1986, the 



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HIIJ.III IVrOimM] CO.. MC. 
)07 C Sirtti. N E 25 

Vuhiofton. D C :0002 



VNCUSSIHED 



523 



A Yes. 

Q Was there any other Phil who was an employee at 
that time? 

A No. 

Q And does the identification of Phil refresh your 
recollection as to who Kathleen Hart might be? 

A No, I don't know. 

Q The message for Phil is "$225,000 received." Do 
you know what that message refers to? 

A Not specifically. 

Q Well, do you know generally? 

A Well, we would do wire transfers from time to time 
to different accounts. I assume this is one of those. 

Q But you do not know specifically? 

A I don't know. 

Q All right. If you would look at the next page of 
this exhibit, which has your counsel's control number 19099. 
There is a message, dated March 12 from Rich Miller which 
states, "Send a personal note to Elliott Abrams . In the note 
state how good you thought he did on Night Line." 

Do you recall any discussion about sending a 
personal note to Elliott Abrams with respect to his Night Line 



appearance? 



UNCUSSIHED 



Did you see Mr. Abrauns on Night Line? 



718 



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)07 C Sam. N E 
Vuhiniun. D C 20002 



UNCLASSm 



524 



A I can't recall. 

Q Do you know if a note was sent to Mr. Abrams from 
anyone at NEPL? 

A I don't know. 

Q You have no recollection of such a note? 

A No. 

Q And you have no recollection of any discussion 
about such a note with Mr. Miller or Mr. Channell? 

A No. 

Q If you would turn to the next page of this exhibit, 
which has your counsel's control number 19038, there is a 
message "To Dan," which I interpret to be a message to you, 
dated April 10, "From Fawn," and then it has "North" written 
after that in a circle, which says, "7:30 tour? Still on." 
What does that message refer to? 

A I had some friends in from out of town, from 
California, and I wanted to take a private tour of the White 
House. I talked with Fawn and Ollie about doing that, but we 
eventually didn't do it. 

Q why not? 

A My guests' schedule didn't permit it. 

Q But so far as Colonel North and Ms. Hall were 
concerned, it was possible to arrange such a tour? 

A Yes. It was just a social thing, has nothing to do 
with Nicaragua. 



IINClASSIFIFIl 



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Mun WMxrma co.. wc 

507 C Soto. NE 25 

Vuiuiiftaa. D C 20002 



UNCUssm 



525 



Q Did your friends have any business relationship 
with NEPL? 

A No. 

Q Purely social friends? 
A Yes. 

Q How large a group was this? 
A Two. 

Q Turning to the next page, which has your counsel's 
number 18859, there is a message dated July 28, 1986, from 
Bruce Cameron, which states, "Re check you sent, his lawyer 
said that it is not legal for to give it to him. He would 
like to meet with you when you get back. " 

Do you recall any discussion of the subject matter 
of that message? 
A No. 

Q NEPL was making payments to Mr. Cameron, was it not? 
A Yes. 

Q So far as you know, Mr. Cameron accepted all of the 
checks? 

A I believe at the beginning — I don't remember what 
the issue was, but I think this might have been it. I think 
he didn't accept the check. I don't remember why. 

Q Was the check then reissued in some other manner? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know how it was reissued? 



eck then reissued in £ 

UNCLASSIFIF 



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iMxiii mrormto co.. inc. 

W7CSo«t. NE 25 

Vuhiofna. DC. 20002 



UNClASSinED 



526 



A From another organization. 

Q Now, the message at the top reads, "To CRC," which 
I take it is Mr. Channel 1; is that your understanding? 

A Yes. 

Q Then there appears to be a slash, and is it "Mike"? 
Who do you understand "Mike" refers to? 

A Well, there are two Mikes, so I don't know which 
one that went to. I can't recall whether Michael Barnes, who 
was in our Accounting Department, was working at that time. 

Q Who is the other Mike? 

A Mike Lacobellis. 

Q What was his position? 

A My assistant. 

Q He was your general assistant? 

A Yes. 

Q How long did Mike Barnes work in the Accounting 
Department? 

A I couldn't tell you. 

Q For a period of several months, at least? 

A Yes. Oh, yes. 

Q What was the period of employment of Mike 
Lacobellis? 

A I think a year. 

Q Beginning when? 

A April 1986. ^. 




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Mjjn MPOimMa co.. mc 

M)7CSn«t. NE. 25 

Wuhmfian. DC 20002 



UNCLASSra 



527 



Q And he is still employed by NEPL? 

A No. 

Q When did he leave? 

A A month or so ago. 

Q Turning to the next page, which has your counsel's 
control number 18711, there is a message "From Father 
Dowling, " and which appears to be "To Linda." Do you 
understand that to be to Linda Guell? 

A Yes. 

Q The message reads, "He is at Congressman McCallum's 
office. He will be there for next few minutes." Do you know 
Father Dowling? 

A Yes. 

Q How many times have you met with him? 

A I believe twice. 

Q What were those occasions? 

A One was in the Summer of 1986, and he wanted to ask 
us for some money, wanted to submit a proposal. 

Q How did you meet him? 

A I don't recall how we got in touch with each other. 

Q Did Colonel North introduce you? 

A Oh , no . 

Q And he wanted to submit a proposal and receive soine 



funds from you? 
A Yes. 



UNCIASSIHED 



722 



ed528 



UNCLASSIFIED 



528 



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HLUR WP OHIWO CO.. MC. 
JOICSutn. NE 25 

Washtnfioo. DC. 20002 



Q Who did he meet with other than you? 

A No one . 

Q Just the two of you? 

A Well, Mike Lacobellis, my assistant, was with us, 

Q Did you meet at the NEPL offices? 

A We met at Cafe Berlin, on Massachusetts Avenue. 

Q Did you have lunch? 

A No. Just Cokes. 

Q Did he make a proposal? 

A A verbal proposal. 

Q How much money was he seeking? 

A Over $100,000. I don't remember the amount. 

Q And what was this to be for? 

A I can't recall, specifically. 

Q Well, generally? 

A Public education program on the Freedom Fighters. 

Q How was he going to educate the public? 

A I don't recall the specifics of it. 

Q Did he make any written proposal? 

A No. 

Q He asked for §100,000? 

A Something. 

Q Something in that range? 



UNCUSSm 



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HLLUI RfMMTMa CO.. MC 
107 C StiCTt. N E. 2 5 

Wuhioftoa. D C. 20002 



UNCIASSIHED 



529 



did. 



Q And you don't recall how you were introduced to him? 

A No. 

Q What happened to this proposal? 

A I told him to submit a proposal to us, and he never 

Q All right. Now, you say you met him one other time? 

A Yes. 

Q When was the second time? 

A I think December or January of 1986 or January of 
1987. 

Q Where was that meeting? 

A At the offices of International Business 
Communications . 

Q Who was present? 

A Spitz Channell, Rafael Floras, Rich Miller, Father 

Dowling. There may have been some other people there; I 
don't recall. 



How long did this meeting last? 

Oh, maybe 4 5 minutes, an hour; I don't know. 

Who arranged this meeting? 

Rich Miller. 

What was the purpose of this meeting? 

To make a presentation to u^s_.^ 

About what? 

A written proposal to do a public education program. 



resentation to us 

UNCUSSI 



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>07 C Stiwt. N E 25 

Waihui|<oii. DC 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



530 



Q Was such a proposal submitted? 

A Yes. 

Q Was it discussed at the meeting? 

A Yes. 

Q How much money was he seeking in this proposal? 

A I would have to go look at the proposal itself. I 
don't recall the amount. 

Q Was there anything discussed at the meeting other 

than the proposal? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q How did the meeting conclude? 

A They gave us a copy of the proposal, and we went 

Q You were to consider it and get back to them? 

A Yes . Right . 

Q What decision did you make about the proposal? 

A We decided not to do it. 

Q Who made that decision? 

A Spitz. 

Q Do you know the reason? 

A I really don't. I don't recall. 

Q Were you involved in that decision? 

A Only peripherally. 

Q Was Mr. Miller urging that you accept this proposal? 

A "Urge" is too strong a word. 



away. 



UNCUSSinEd 



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(202) M«-M«< 



UNCUSSIFIED 



531 



Q What word would you use? 

A He was just offering it. 

Q What do you know about his relationship with Father 
Dowling? 

A Nothing. 

Q Were they friends? 

A I have no idea. 

Q Had you been aware that Father Dowling had assisted 
Adolfo Calero and various speaking tours? 

A No. 

Q Now, in August of 1986, what was Linda Guell's 
position? 

A Fundraiser. 

Q For what? 

A Western Goals. 

Q Did she have an office at the NEPL headquarters? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know why Father Dowling was calling her in 
August 1986? 

A No. 

Q Were you aware that Father Dowling knew Linda Guell? 

A No. 

Q When did you first learn that? 

A I think not until 1987. ._..<i»^f-i« 

Q How did you learn that? |ifV[| \ llWlr^^U- 



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W; C Sin«. N E 25 

VuhinitoQ, DC. 20002 



UNCUSSIRED 



532 



A Some strange man called our offices — I don't 
remember his name — and he said — I have all this third- 
hand. It was reported to me that he said that he had 
information that we should know about, and it concerned a 
meeting in November, late November 1986, between Jane 
McLaughlin, Linda Guell, Father Dowling, himself, this caller, 
and -- I don't know who else was there. And he said he had 
photographs to back all this up, and that they were plotting 
the demise of our organizations. Basically, that was it. 

Q Do you know who this person was who called? 

A I don't recall the name. 

Q Was it Mr. Mabry? 

A Yes, that is it. 

Q Phil Mabry. 

A Phil Mabry, yes. 

Q Was he just volunteering this information to you? 

A Well, in a peculiar way. He wanted airfare to come 
up here from — I mean he said he was going to give it to us, 
th* information, but he wanted airfare to come up. Would we 
pay his way to come up here so he could tell us in person the 
full magnitude of the skulduggery that was going on. 

Q Who did he call? 

A I don't know who he called, but who he spoke with 
was Liam Flannery, and I believe also Rafael Flores . 

Q They reported the conversati 



Miffiinrfi 



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JOTCSutn. NE 25 

Wuhuitos. D C 20002 

(202) yn-tm 



533 



Yes. 



Did you meet with Mr. Mabry? 
No. 

You didn't pay his airfare to come up? 
No. 

Were you interested in this information that he 
conveyed to you? 

A I thought he was a member of the lunatic fringe. 
Q Did you doubt that such a meeting had occurred? 
A I didn't care whether it occurred. 
Q You weren't concerned about Jane McLaughlin and 
Linda Guell plotting to destroy your organization? 
A That is correct . 
Q You were not concerned? 
A That is correct. 
Q Why not? 

A I couldn't fathom them being able to accomplish 
such a thing. 

Q And that was the first time that you were aware 
that Linda Guell had known or had any association with Father 
Dowling? 

A Yes. 

Q Have you learned any more since then about the 
relationship of Linda Guell and Father Dowling? 

A I think they have known each other for a long time, 



mp\ hmmt^ 



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■•j^N mromwa co.. inc. 
)07 C Suen. N E 25 

Vuhmitoo. O C 20002 



UNCIASSIHED 



534 



but I don't even know in what connection. 

Q How did you learn they have known each other for a 
long time? 

A I cannot recall. 

Q Have you since learned any more about them; any 
relationship between Jane McLaughlin and Father Dowling? 

A No. 

Q So I take it, then, you have no knowledge of the 
substance of this telephone message of August 11, 1986, from 
Father Dowling to Linda Guell? 

A No. 

Q Would you turn to the next page — 

MR. McGOUGH: Before you go on, could I just 
clarify one point? You say that the meeting that Mabry 
described took place in November of 1986. Do you recall his 
phone call came in? 

THE WITNESS: I think not until January or February 
of 1987. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Turning to the next page, which has your counsel's 
control number 18542, there is a message at the top which 
states, "Check for Green for $100,000," and it has the 
initials "CRC" on the message slip jB>«aifc«laprf<flai%t> »nn»fk's to 
be the name "Cliff." 

Do you know what that message refers to? 



UNCUSSIFe 



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507 C Sat«. N E 25 

Wukmroo. DC. 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



535 



A I have no idea . 

Q The next page has your counsel's control number 
18583. In the lower left-hand corner, there is a message "To 
CRC, from Fawn," dated October 27. The message reads, "Moved 
breakfast on Tuesday, the 28th, to November 6," and then the 
names "North, Terry Arnold, Neil Livingston, CRC, Dan and 
Rob . '• 

Do you know what that message refers to? 

A Yes . 

Q What? 

A We asked for a meeting, a breakfast meeting, with 
Ollie North between the people listed here, and she was 
calling to tell us that it got moved from the 28th to 
November 6th. 

Q And that breakfast occurred? 

A I think it occurred later than that; the 10th, 
maybe. 

Q 

A 

Q 



Now, who is "Rob"? 

Rob Owen. 

We have discussed them before, but just identify 



again, for the record, who Terry Arnold and Neil Livingston 
are. 

A They are — I don't know -- consultants, I guess, 
on terrorism. They work with the Institute on Terrorism and 
Sub-National Conflict, and so does_Rfii2. .Qwen . 



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IMLLIII RVOKTMO CO.. HC. 
J07 C itmt. N E 25 

Vuhmfion. DC 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



536 



Q So they were all associated in that organization? 

A That is correct. 

Q What was the purpose of their meeting with you, 
Colonel North and Mr. Channell in approximately November — 
and I take it, this is 1986, correct? 

A That is correct. We wanted to tell Colonel North 
that we were behind him 100 percent, all of us, and we would 
do what we could to be helpful to him. 

Q What does that mean, "you were behind him 100 
percent " ? 

A He was under criticism in the press for -- I don't 
recall just what, several things, so we just wanted to let 
him know that he was not going to be defenseless there. 

Q What was the purpose of having Rob Owen, Terry 
Arnold and Neil Livingston in such a meeting where you were 
going to tell Colonel North that you and Mr. Channell were 
behind him? 

A We wanted to demonstrate solidarity. 

Q By why that other particular group? 

A They initiated it. 

Q They initiated it -- oh, it was their idea to 
indicate support for Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q And they iff^ 

A Yes. 



/ou ^nd Mr. Channell to attend? 




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Waihinftoo. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



537 



Q Where was this breakfast held? 
A The Hay Adams Hotel . 

Q Did anyone attend, other than this group that is 
identified here- 

A No. Well, Ollie North. 

Q Well, I mean he is identified in the list. 

Did Fawn Hall attend? 
A No. 

Q How did you indicate, at that breakfast meeting, 
that you were going to stand behind him and support him? 
A We didn't have a chance to do it. 

Why not? 

Because he talked too much. 

What did he say? 

Oh, he was busy yapping about some crisis or other 
that he was involved in. 

MR. McGOUGH: "He" being North? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Did the others of you get to say anything that 



morning? 
A 
Q 
A 



Not too much. 

Nothing of any substance? 

Nothing of any substance. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Was his crisis a personal crisis? 



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HLLiH Ktromma co.. inc. 
WTCSuCTt. NE 2 5 

Wutunflon. DC. 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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A Oh, no, no, no. Two days later, three days later, 
something, after the breakfast, we saw everything he said in 
an Op-Ed piece in the Washington Post that had carried the 
byline of Robert McFarlane. It was on some national security 
issue . 

Q Do you remember what the issue was? 

A I don't recall. 

Q So he, in effect, was summarizing Mr. McFarlane 's 
article for you? 

A Yes. I sort of got the impression, after I read 
the article, that he had drafted the piece for McFarlane, but 
I don't know that for a fact. 

MR. McGOUGH: I assume that it was not Iran or 
Nicaragua that was the subject of the Op-Ed piece; or do you 
recall? 

THE WITNESS: It is easy enough to check. I mean 
all we have to do is go back and look, but I don't remember. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Now, Mr. Conrad, are you aware that there were 
various transfers of funds, particularly in March of 1986, 
from the bank account of NEPL — and here I am using "NEPL" 
specifically as the National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty -- to the bank account of Sentinel? 

A The question, again, is "Did I know that?" 

Q Yes . 



on, again, is "Did I knov 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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•nan HiroirTaKi co.. •«. 
507CSawt. NE 2 5 

WuhiniToa. D C 20002 



UNClASSra 



539 



A I don't recall. I would have to look at the 
financial records. 

Q Well, as a general matter, were you aware that 
there were financial transfers occurring, where money was 
being transferred from NEPL to other Channell organizations? 

A Sometimes I knew and sometimes I didn't. 

Q But you knew that some transfers had occurred? 

A Yes. 

Q And were you aware that there were transfers from 
NEPL to Sentinel? 

A I don't recall. I would have to look. I mean it 
is a question of fact, and I don't remember. 

Q Do you recall any discussion of the need for such 
transfers? 

A No. 

Q Did you authorize transfers from NEPL to other 
Channell organizations? 

A Sometimes. 

Q Which ones? 

A There are 11 organizations; I don't know. 

Q Who would come to you, seeking authorization? Is 
this something, as a general matter, Mr. McMahon would come 
to you for your approval? 

A Well, I wouldn't put it quite so strongly. 
Sometimes he would ask me;_ usu^^,ljg,^^d just do it on his 



ask me; usually. bAa^V^d 



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HUJll W M OWTWO CO.. HC. 
107 C Saw. N E. 25 

Waillill(t«l. O.C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



540 



own, or perhaps Spitz would tell him. On the odd occasion 
where neither of those two things happened, he would come to 
me and ask me what to do. 

Q But there were occasions where you did authorize 
transfers of funds -- 

MS. LUBIN: Could we go off the record for a moment? 

MR. FRYMAN: Yes. Off the record. 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

During the break there was a discussion about this 
area of questioning, and it was agreed that this area would 
be deferred until a later point in the examination. 

MS. LUBIN: Thank you, 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Conrad, did Channell Corporation perform 
services for the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty? Let me phrase that question another way. 

In the financial records, there are various 
payaents from NEFL to the Channell Corporation, and my 
general question is, what were those payments for, if you 
know? 

A Well, I am afraid you will have to ask the 
Accounting Department. I can't respond. I don't know how to 
respond. 

MS. LUBIN: Can you be more particular? 



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■■xn m ptm iw ui co., mc 

)07 C Snttt. N E. 2 5 

WuluDfioo. D C 20002 



UNClASSinED 



541 



MR. FRYMAN: Let me pass this area for the time 
being, also, then. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Let me ask you one other question in the general 
matter. The NEPL financial records indicate a number of 
checks that were made payable to cash. Were you aware that 
checks were being drawn to cash on various occasions? 

A On various occasions, yes. 

Q What was the reason for that? 

A I would have to look at the specific checks. 

Q Could you tell by looking at a specific check, 
payable to cash, as to the reason for it? 

A In some instances. 

Q Can you give me examples of reasons why checks were 
payable to cash? 

A I am really grasping at straws because I mean it is 
a matter of financial record keeping, and they knew at the 
time what it was. On the odd occasion, I would know what it 
was for. Sometimes I didn't even know that a check was made 
out to cash. I can't think of any instances at the minute, 
but I know that we did it sometimes. 

Q When you refer to "they," are you referring to Mr. 
McMahon or Mr. Meo? 

A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



The people in the Accounting Department? 



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Vuhinrcn. DC 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



542 



A Yes. 

Q They were aware of the reason for drawing a check 
to cash? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you have any knowledge of checks that had been 
drawn by International Business Communications to cash? 

A No. 

Q Specifically, in March and April of 1986, three 
checks in the approximate amount of $20,000 each, payable to 
cash? 

A No. 

Q That was never discussed with you? 

A No. 

Q Do you have any knowledge of checks, payable to 
cash, ever being used to pay expenses for media campaigns? 

A No. 

Q Are you familiar with an organization called the 
Heritage Foundation? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ever have any role in causing funds to be 
transmitted to the Heritage Foundation? 

A No. I didn't know there were any. 

Q Do you have any knowledge of funds being transferred 
to any of Mr. Miller's organizations from the Heritage 
Foundation? 



ONCLASSm 



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iHLLiii iw xo rwo CO.. MC 
yncumt.Ni 25 

Vuhiniun. D C. 20001 



UNCussm 



543 



A No. 

Q We have previously discussed Roy Godson in this 
deposition . 

A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of any activity by Mr. Godson with 
respect to raising funds for Nicaragua or entities related to 
Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Q Are you aware of any fundraising activities by 
Faith Whittlesy? 

A No. 

I have just remembered something. I think the 
country that we discussed at the breakfast was Iran, Iran and 
China. And that is what then came out in the Op-Ed piece. 

Q Mr. Conrad, we have talked a little bit about 
Western Goals in this deposition. 

A Yes. 

Q Were there two separate Western Goals organizations? 

A I think there were four. 

Q What were the four, then? 

A Western Goals Foundation, Western Goals Endowment 
Fund, Western Goals Legal Defense Fund and Western Goals. 

Q What was the reason for four separate organizations? 

A Well, the Western Goals Foundation was a 501(c)(3), 
and Western Goals Endowment .Fujid^-- _I_ain_jist sure of the 



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107 C Sintt, N E 25 

Vuhiofion. O C 20002 
1202) Vt6-«6«i 



UNCLASSIRED 



544 



legal definition or designation, but it was intended to be 
able to receive large contributions, so that the 501(c)(3) 
could meet its public support test. 

The Legal Defense Fund, I don't know what that was 
for. I never had anything to do with it. But it had a 
different purpose altogether, which I don't even know what it 
was. Then Western Goals -- I don't really know the history 
of that. When we took over the Western Goals Foundation and 
Western Goals Endowment Fund, our attorney recommended that 
we just let it lapse. So I don't really know what its 
original purpose was, even. 

Q Was Western Goals merged into the Western Goals 
Foundation? 

A No. It was just let lapse. 

Q Western Goals itself just ceased to function? 

A Yes. 

Q To your knowledge, it was not formally merged into 
one of the other organizations? 

A No, it definitely was not. We had to make a 
conscious decision not to do that. 

Q And Western Goals was allowed to lapse, on the 
advice or your attorney? 

A Yes. 

Q And you don't know the reason? 



No. 



UNCUssra 



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laujK w p uw m u CO.. hc. 
yn Cimn.Hl. 25 

WHkB(ua. DC MOO! 



UNCLASSIFIED 



545 



Q Do you know if Western Goals Endowment received any 
of the assets or liabilities from Western Goals when it 
ceased to function? 

A I have no idea. My understanding was that Western 
Goals didn't have any assets. 

Q How about liabilities? 

A I don't think it had any liabilities either. 

Q We talked yesterday briefly about Congressmen who 
had been targeted in connection with the CATP program, and the 
votes on Contra aid and Congressmen in Congress. Generally, 
what was your understanding of the procedure for targeting 
spJecific Congressmen? How were these particular Congressmen 
identified as targets? 

A Through an analysis of their voting record. 
Who did the analysis? 
A variety of different people. 
Who? 



Well, at different times different people did it. 

I think Bruce Cameron did it. I think Dan Hir e h end ahl did 

A 
it. . I think Rich Miller did it. I think there were mote 

people involved but I don't remwnber, really. Spitz did it. 

I think Rafael Flores did it. 

Q Were there ever meetings of some or all of the 

group that you have identified, where the purpose of the 

meeting was to identif^santigui&ii Ci^aqessmen as targets' 



mtiKwu" 



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MJCSotct. NE 25 

Wuhinron. O C 20002 



uNcussra 



546 



A Well, more appropriately put, that would be we 
would have meetings with various people and they would submit 
who they thought were good and tell why, and all that. Spitz 
would take it away to decide whether or not he wanted to 
target them. 

Q Would this be meetings with individuals from this 
group on an individual basis, or would it be larger group 
meetings where there would be a consensus reached, or could 
it be both? 

A It is both, but there is no consensus. Spitz is a 
dictator. 

Q Spitz made the decision? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the White House's role in identifying the 
targets with respect to the CAFP program? 

A I don't know that they even had a role. 

Q What about Colonel's North's role? 

A I don't remember whether he was specifically 
involved in the Central American Freedom Program or not . we 
asked him, from time to time, for his analysis of who the 
possible swing votes would be. From time to time, he gave us 
those, but that didn't mean anything because Spitz would make 
the final decision. 

Q Do you know if anyone maintained any minutes of any 
meetings with respect to _s^]^ctijig^n|f||p^jCongressmenl 



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107 C Soot. NE. 25 

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UNCIASSIHED 



547 



A No, I do not know. 

Q You are not aware of the existence of such minutes? 
A No. 

Q What was John Robert's role in selecting Congressmen 
as targets? 

A Nothing. 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Conrad, I have no further questions 
at this time. Your counsel and I have agreed that I will 
defer an area of questioning I have with regard to certain 
particular financial aspects of NEPL and other Channell 
organizations . 

MS. LUBIN: Agreed. 

MR. FRYMAN: My colleagues, Mr. McGough and Mr. 
Oliver, I believe have some questions at this time. 

MR. McGOUGH: Why don't we take the five minutes 
you wanted and give me a chance to organize my notes . 
MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
[Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.] 
MR. McGOUGH: On the record. 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q Mr. Conrad, if there is any question I ask you and 
you don't understand, feel free to ask for clarification. 
What I would like to do is cover some specific points that 

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■tun KVOHTMa CO.. mc 

JOTCStittt, NE 25 

Waihmiioa. D C 10002 



UNtUSSIFIED 



548 



may already have been covered, but I want to tack down some 
corners and then I want to ask some broader questions that 
may not key into documents exactly, but have to do, really, 
with motivation, state of mind and that sort of thing at 
various points in the course of events that we discuss. 

I have in my notes, but I want to make sure we had 
it clear, that there had been an earlier question regarding 
gifts or things of value being given to Colonel North and his 
family. I believe you testified that you recalled the 
Newington weekend as the transportation and the trip, the 
airplane trip, to meet with Mr. Hunt and a briefcase as being 
three items that could fall into the category of gifts or 
other things of value being provided to Colonel North or his 
family. 

Can you recall any other items that may have been 
provided, to your knowledge, by NEPL — when I speak of NEPL, 
I speak broadly of the Channell organizations, or anyone 
associated with NEPL — to Colonel North or his family? 

A No, nothing else. 

Q Nothing? 

A The occasional dark beer. 

Q Let's say with a retail value in excess of $10. 

A I think we paid for his breakfast on November 10th, 
and the last I recall, breakfasts there were considerably 



more than $10. 



UNCUSSiriED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



549 



Q Let's set aside meals or beverages. Maybe that is 
the easier way to do it. 

A All right. No, nothing else. 

Q Can you describe the briefcase that you gave to. 
Colonel North? 

A Black. ; 

Q Leather? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall the approximate retail value? 

A Five hundred and sone dollars. 

Q Do you recall ever seeing hiai use it? 

A No. 

Q Approximately when did you give him that briefcase? 

A I would have to go back and look at the dates . I 
don ' t know . 

Q Nas it late 1985, early 1986, ■id-19867 Can you 
pin it down even that much? 

A I aa not good at that. Sorry. I would have to 



look. 



Q Did you present it to him In his office? 

A No. 

Q Where did you give it to him? 

A I didn't give it to him. 

Q Who gave it to him? 

A I don't know. 



him. 



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Vuhiii(n>n. D C 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



550 



Q How was it transferred to him, if you know? 

A I believe it was given to Fawn. 

Q By whom? 

A I am not remembering. 

Q Do you know if he personally ever received the 
briefcase? Did he ever acknowledge receipt of the briefcase? 

A Oh, I saw him in his office with the briefcase, 
putting some thing in it, one time. 

Q Did he ever thank you for it? 

A I can't recall. 

Q Did you ever see Colonel North or observe him in 
possession of Travelers Checks at any time? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever observe him in possession of cash in 
amounts greater than, say, $100? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever see any Travelers Checks or cash in 
excess of $100 in his office or office suites? 

A No. 

Q Did he ever discuss Travelers Checks with you? 

A No. 

Q Did he ever discuss handling large amounts of cash? 

A No. 

Q There was an audit of receipts to the Channell 
organizations done b^ a. -^^fl l^fii*t^f £°y"^-'-'*9 firm, or an 



"iiSi6f1l(^Cf|flnV 



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Vuhinfioo. O C 20002 



UNCUSSIHED 



551 



accounting firm, whose name escapes me right now. It was not 
a Big Eight firm. Simmermacher and Phelps; is that right? 

A That is right. 

Q And it was the conclusion of that audit that the 
receipts of the Channell organizations were all attributable 
to identifiable private donors. Is that a fair summary of it? 

A Yes. 

Q To your knowledge, was the Simmermacher and Phelps 
audit, and the conclusions derived there from, accurate? 

A Oh, of course. 

Q You have no reason to believe that it was inaccurate 
in any regard? 

A That is correct. 

Q Can we conclude from that, that to your knowledge, 
none of the proceeds of the Iranian arms sales found their 
ways into the accounts or possession of any of the Channell 
organizations? 

A Would that they had. 

Q The answer is no, they did not? 

A The answer is no, they did not. 

Q To your knowledge, did any of the Channell organi- 
zations conduct advertising or public education campaigns 
that were not paid for entirely by one of the Channell 
organizations? Did they joint venture a caonpaign with any 
other entity? Did they arrange or were they aware of other 

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ONcussm 



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entities contributing directly to the funding of a particular 
campaign? 

A No. 

Q I am not trying to confuse you. What I am looking 
for is whether, for example, NEPL decided to launch a pro- 
Nicaraguan educational campaign, and contracted for ads, and 
then paid for a portion of those ads, and had or knew of 
other entities or persons paying for the other portions of 
the ads. That is not a question, but that is just to 
illustrate the type of thing I am looking for. 

To your knowledge, when NEPL or the Channel 1 
organizations conducted an ad campaign, did they pay for 100 
percent of that ad campaign or that public education campaign? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ever discuss NEPL's role in raising and 
providing direct aid to the Contras with any other government 
official, other than Oliver North? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q All right. I will give you just a couple of names. 
Elliott Abrams . Did you ever discuss NEPL's role in direct 
assistance to the Contras with Elliott Abrams? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever discuss it with William Casey, or know 
of its discussion with William C^ 

A I have no knowledge . 



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UNCLASSIRED 



553 



Q To your knowledge did Colonel North, or any other 
government official, assist NEPL or any of the other Channell 
organizations in obtaining IRS approval for tax-exempt status? 

A No. 

Q Prior to the disclosure of the Iranian arms sale in 
early November 1986, were you aware of any overtures being 
made by any government official to Iran? 

A NO. 

Q Did Colonel North ever discuss any aspect of the 
Iranian arms sale or initiative with you, or with anyone in 
your presence? 

A No. 

Q Were you aware of any involvement by Colonel North 
in Iranian matters? 

A Well, as I mentioned, on November 10th, 1986, he 
did discuss Iran, but that was the first timecsl ever heard 
him say it. 

Q Was that the day of the breakfast that you had with 
hia? 

A Ye« . 

Q You mentioned, in the course of Mr. Fryman's 
questions, perhaps a week ago or two weeks ago, where you 
explained a note in your to-do list about a private plan by 
Colonel North to rescue the hostages, and indicated, I 
believe, if my memory serves me correg^y, that this was a 



smory serves me correctly 



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suggestion that you or someone made to Colonel North, that 
might be used as a fundraising tool. Is that a fair summary? 

A Yes. 

Q At the time that you made that suggestion, what was 
his response? 

A Well, I believe I responded at the time that he 
said he had matters in hand and we didn't need to do that. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Colonel North any of his 
plans or any of his activities in the area of hostage rescue 
or hostage release? 

A He mentioned them to us from time to time. 

Q What did he mention about them? 

A That he was involved in it and he was running off 
here or there to deal with it, and negotiations going on. 

Q Did he ever discuss with you any specific plans to 
rescue the hostages or to release the hostages? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Were you aware of any involvement by Richard Miller 
and an alleged Saudi Arabian prince in a possible plan to 
rescue the hostages? 

A I didn't know anything about it. 

Q Were you aware of any involvement of Drug 
Enforcement Administration agents in plans to rescue the 



hostages? 



No. 



UNCUSSIFIEu 



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Q Did you ever hear Richard Miller discuss any of his 
dealings with an alleged Saudi prince? 



Yes. I met the prince. 

You met the prince. What occasion was that? 
1985 in Rich Miller's offices. 
What were you told about the prince? 
He was a prince. I mean nothing — "Here, meet a 
prince, " you know. 

Q Do you know why he was in IBC's office? 
A I assumed they had business dealings together. 
Q Did you discuss those business dealings with the 
prince, or with Mr. Miller or anyone at IBC? 
A No. 

Q Were you aware of any involvement by the prince in 
possible aid to the Contras? 
A No. 

Q We have discussed | 
possible source for funds to the Contras and the name of 
ropped up in a couple of the to-do lists. 

Are you aware of any solicitation of any other 
nations or national governments for assistance to the 
Contras, by NEPL or anyone else? 
A I have no knowledge. 

Q Did Colonel North ever discuss with you efforts to 
raise money from other countries for support of the Contras? 

nuouLCX^iriCii 



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A Not that I recall. 

Q Did Elliott Abrama ever discuss with you efforts to 
raise money from other countries to support the Contras? 

A I have never discussed anything with Elliott Abrajns . 

Q Have you ever met Elliott Abrams? 

A No. Wait, I take that back. I may have shaken his 
hand. 

Q Mr. Channell has told us that there was a lunch 
with Elliott Abrams in January of 1986, shortly before Mr. 
Abrams appeared at a White House briefing. Were you present 
at that lunch? 

A No. 

Q I think it took place at the Prime Rib. Were you 
aware of the lunch — 

A This is not atypical. 

Q I understand that. But are you aware that there 
was such a lunch? 

A Yes. 

Q You know the lunch I am speaking of. You were not 
present? 

A I was not present. 

Q Your background, Mr. Conrad, is it fair to say, is 



a fundraiser? 



Professional fundraiser? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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A Yes. 

Q You have worked, ovet the years, for a number of 
organizations, either as an employee or as an outside 
consultant in the role of fundraising or assisting them with 
their fundraising; is that right? 
A Yes. 

Q Prior to 1985, had you ever been involved in 
political fundraising? 
A No. • 

Q Prior to 1985, had you ever been involved in a 
political campaign? 
A Ho. 

Q Prior to 1985, had you ever worked directly with 
any Federal agency or governnental body as a consultant? 
A Yes. 

What was that? 

Action. 

All right. When was that? 

I don't reaenber. I mean you are asking for a long 



Q 
A 

Q 
A 

tine ago. 

Q 

A 

Q 
Action? 

A 



Twenty years ago? 

No, no. I mean within the last lb years. 

Within the last 10 years. What did you do for 



I conducted trainin< 



td training programf tor 

iiMDi locnnrh 



for them, different 



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locations around the United States. 

Q Training people in what? 

A Training their grantees in how to get money, 
nongovernmental funds. 

Q Other than that, can you recall any — 

A Oh, various government agencies, I have done that 
with. The same idea. 

Q So from time to time, you have worked as a consul- 
tant for various government agencies? 

A Yes. 

Q In the area of grantsmanship, I think you call it? 

A Yes. 

Q You had, during your fundraising career, been 
involved with a number of 501(c)(3) corporations, have you 
not? 

A Yes. 

Q What is your understanding for which a 501(c)(3) 
can raise money? 

MS. LUBIN: Can we go off the record a minute. 
MR. McGOUGH: Yes. Off the record. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q What is your understanding as to the permissible 
purposes for which a 501(c)(3) organization might raise money? 

A Well, normally, I wouldn't cpncern myself with 

IIMOI kOCICII.ll 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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that. It is not a question that often comes up in fund- 
raising. You almost take it for granted that what you are 
going after is appropriate. You wouldn't dream of questioning 
it, in most instances, 99 percent of the time. I can't say 
that before I came to Washington that I ever had to deal with 
that issue. I can't recall one instance of that ever coming 
up. 

Q I understand that. But the question still stands 
and that is, what is your understanding as to what the 
appropriate or permissible purposes are for fundraising for a 
501(c)(3)? 

A There is a list in the Tax Code of all the things 
that are permitted, education — I mean just various -- I 
would have to look at the thing to know. 

Q Prior to your association with the Channell groups, 
had you ever worked for an organization, either as an 
employee or as a consultant, where you had a doubt as to the 
tax-exempt — as to the propriety of the use of the funds for 
which you were raising money? 

A No. 

Q At the time Mr. Channell asked you to -- and I don't 
want to get this in the wrong sequence, but at the time Mr. 
Channell presented you with the opportunity to work on the 
Nicaraguan, be that before or after you entered into a forinal 
relationship with his "•"T.^'lj ~Jl*'Jn'il0 ■V' the time you were 

iiiiAi lopintn 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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presented with an opportunity to work on the Nicaraguan issue 
and the Contra issue, did you at that time have personal 
opinions about the political situation in Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Q None whatsoever? 

A No. 

Q Did you have any objection or reservations, from 
the personal political standpoint, about raising funds for 
the Contras? 

A No. 

Q Would you have had any personal political reser- 
vations about raising funds for the Sandinistas? 

A Well, now, certainly, of course. 

Q At the time; I am talking about at the time. 

A At the time, I didn.'t know who they were. 

Q At the time, you really didn't understand the issue 
at all? 

A I didn't know where Nicaragua was. 

Q I guess what I am trying to get at, did you care 
what the issue was at the time you accept«d the challenge? 

A No. • • 

Q It was just something, another retention to assist 
in the raising of • money for a particular issue? 

A Sure. 



I would like .to_r: 



litf6fll?(^irii 



e,. names of some of the 



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contributors to Mr. Channell's organizations and ask you what 
personal contact you might have had, or knowledge of solici- 
tations directed to each one. 

We have discussed John Ramsey which occurred in the 
Spring of 1985- Was the dinner that we discussed before your 
first contact with Mr. Ramsey? 

A Nothing sticks out in my memory as an earlier 
contact . 

Q After that dinner, did you ever have any further 
personal contact with Mr. Ramsey? 

A Sure. 

Q On what occasions? 

A He came to various different events. 

Q Were you ever involved in asking him for money, 
personally; that is, you personally? 

A No. 

Q Were you ever present at the time when anyone, 
working with Mr. Channell's organizations asked him for money? 

A None that I recall. 

Q We have also discussed Bunker Hunt and a dinner 
that took place in Dallas with Colonel North and Mr. Channell. 
Was that dinner your first personal contact with Bunker Hunt? 

A I believe it was. 

Q After that, dinj^afw diiXPU-have personal contact 

with Mr. Hunt? 




I 



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A Yes. 

Q Did any of that personal contact involve solici- 
tation for money? 

A No. 

Q Were you present at any time when anyone associated 
with Mr. Channell's organizations solicited Mr. Hunt for 
money? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Barbara Newington. Can you recall any personal 
contact with Barbara Newington? 

A Yes . 

Q What is your first recollection of a personal 
contact with Ms . Newington? 

A I met her, she was at the offices. I don't know 
how to answer the question. I met her several tiroes. 

Q Were you ever present at a time when Mrs . Newington 
was solicited for a contribution? 

A Yes. 

Q On what occasions, or occasion? 

A The first one I remember is this year, and we asked 
her for a contribution for a monument. 

Q Is this the Berlin Monument? 

A Yes. I was present another time -- I can't 
remember what the purpose was for it. 



Were y' 



f(K¥iW1iC^ICttll 



on or about 



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iifimsim 



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November 7th, 1985, at the Hay Adams Hotel, in a suite at the 
Hay Adams Hotel, where Mrs. Newington met with Mr. Channell, 
Mr. Miller, and Colonel North? 

A No. 

Q Are you aware of the meeting I'm discussing? 

A Not specifically. 

Q There has been testimony that a solicitation was 
made of Mrs. Newington, on or about that time, to contribute 
toward the purchase of Surface to Air missiles. Are you 
aware of any such solicitation being made? 

A I knew she was solicited; I didn't know what for. 

Q How did you know she was solicited? 

A Spitz told me. 

Q What did he tell you about the solicitation? 

A I really don't recall. 

Q Do you recall whether you were aware that she was 
solicited for arms? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall an amount that she was asked for? 

A No. 

Q All right. Let me ask Ellen Garwood; do you recall 
your first contact with Mrs. Garwood? 

A I don't remember when was the first. 

Q Were you ever present at a time when Mrs. Garwood 
was asked for money? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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A I can't recall. 

Q Were you ever aware that Mrs. Garwood was asked for 
money for arms? 

A I didn't know what for. 

Q You mean you didn't know what kind of arms, or you 
didn't know whether it was for arms? 

A I didn't know that it was for arms. 

Q Were you aware that Colonel North, at one point, 
produced an arms list for Mrs. Garwood? 

A I was later informed, yes. 

Q By whom? 

A X believe Spitz Channell. 

Q You say, "later." Was that more or less contempo- 
raneously, of are you talking recently? 

A Contemporaneously. 

Q What did he tell you? 

A I don't recall the specifics. 

Q Were you surprised that Colonel North had presented 
Mrs. Garwood with an ams list? 

A No. 

Q Why not? • 

A Because he produced one for Bunker Hunt . 

Q Patricia Beck. I believe you testified that you 
were under the impression that Mrs ._ _Bef k.Uac^ laAiQA Vtf^KFind 
for two Surface to Air missiles. 




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M7 C Sunt. N E 25 

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UNCUSSIFIED 



565 



Yes. 

By Cliff Smith; is that right? 

Yes. 

Were you present when that solicitation occurred? 

No. 

Did Mr- Smith tell you that that is, in fact, what 



A 

Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q 
happened? 

A Yes. 

Q Is he your only source for that information? 

A I don't understand. 

Q I guess what I am saying is, other than Mr. Smith, 
did anyone else discuss that solicitation with you? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Were you aware, prior to the solicitation, that it 
was going to take place? 

A I knew she was going to be solicited, yes. 

Q Did you know for what she was going to be solicited? 

A I don't recall if I knew that or not. 

Q Had you provided Mr. Smith with the information on 
the Surface to Air missiles? 

A I don't recall that either. 

Q Do you know how he came into possession of infor- 
mation on Surface to Air missiles? 

A I can make an educated guess, but I _don '^ _k 

Q Make your educated guess 



5SS, but I don't kHQ^^ 

UNClASSlfiD 



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MUM ROOWTVia CO.. MC. 
507 C Suttt. N E 2 5 

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UNCLASSIFIED 



566 



A Well, I told Spitz what the prices were, and I 

assume that Spitz told Cliff. 

Q Are you aware of any other situations in which Mrs. 
Beck was solicited for weapons? 

A No. 

Q Thomas Claggett. Do you know Mr. Claggett? 

A Yes. 

Q A memorable person, to say the least. Who was his 

solicitor; do you recall? 

K 
A I think ^ris Littledale. 

Q Were you ever present when a solicitation was made 
of Mr. Claggett? 

A No. 

Q Were you aware of, at that time or shortly there- 
after, at the time of any solicitations or shortly thereafter, 
that Mr. Claggett had made contributions towards the purchase 
of arms? 

A I didn't know what it was for. 

Q You knew he had made a contribution? 

A Yes. 

Q But you didn't know it was for arms, or for lethal 
assistance? 

A No, I did not know. 

Q When did you find that out for the first time, if 
you have ever found out? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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UNfiUSSIHED 



567 



A I mean allegations about; I have no idea. 

Q The allegations that you are referring to are those 
allegations that have cropped up, say, since the beginning of 
this year? 

A Yes . 

Q We discussed Mr. Ramsey, Mr. Hunt, Mrs. Newington, 
Mrs. Garwood, Mrs. Beck and Mr. Claggett. To your knowledge, 
were any other contributors or potential contributors to 
Channell organizations solicited for arms or lethal assistance 
to the Contras? 

A Well, one of the Hoopers. 

Q Which one? 

A I don't know. I get them confused. Bruce or Ralph 
was asked for $100,000 for arms. 

Q By whom? 

A By Jane McLaughlin. This is from Jane McLaughlin 
that I got this information, which I did not get until the 
day she quit, in January of 1987. 

Q Were you surprised? I recall there was a letter, or 
draft of a letter that was never sent, saying something like 
"You were not authorized to do this, and we were shocked that 
you did this." Is that accurate? Were you shocked at the 
time to hear that she had done that? 

A I wasn't particularly shocked, no 

Q Why not? 



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A Because we had asked other people for arms . 

Q All right. Other than Bruce Hooper, anyone else 
that you can recall? 

A Well, I believe Dr. Mary Adamkiewicz and Mrs. 
Barbara Christian were asked for Red Eye missiles, if I recall 
properly. 

Q Let's focus on Dr. Adankiewict first. Do you 
recall — 

A They were together. 

Q They were together, it was the same tine? 

A Tea . 

Q Can you recall where this took place? 

A I am not aure. 

Q Were you present when this solicitation took place? 

A I cannot recall. 

Q Do you r«i»ad>er who aade the solicitation? 

A Mo. 

Q Do you rsMSwher when it was made? 

A Not specifically. 

Q Were Dr. Adaakiewicz and Mrs. Christian together on 
a nuaber of occasions — 

A Yes. 

Q — or would they just be for NEPL functions? 

A Well, they were together for NEPL functions. 

Q So it was at a NBPL^VBS^ft*M(% which the 



as at a NEPL^uac^nHP^ 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



569 



solicitation took place? 

A Well, maybe we need to clarify what is a "NEPL 
function. " 

Q One of the White House briefings, perhaps. 

A Okay. 

Q Was it at a White House briefing? 

A Well, it wouldn't have occurred at a White House 
briefing, certainly not. 

Q At a follow-up dinner to the White House briefing, 
or something like that? 

A Yes, something like that. 

Q I guess what I am talking about, do you have a 
recollection of these two women being solicited at the same 
time? I am just trying to pull along the memory, because you 
can't even remember if you were there or whether you just 
heard about it. 

A Well, they were around a lot. They came down quite 
often, so I just don't remember. 

Q I guess what I am focusing on is, why do you have 
this recollection that they were asked for Red Eye missiles? 
What is it that triggers that recollection? What do you key 
it to? 

A Well, they had a meeting with Ollie in his office 
where Red Eye missiles were discussed. 

Q Were you present at that meetinc 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



570 



A I can't remember whether I was there or not. 

Q All right. 

A But I know that happened, either by report or by my 
being there. I just don't remember. I know that they were 
solicited, and they gave for that, but I don't remember who -- 
I mean, again, I can make educated guesses but I don't know 
for sure. 

Q Do you know how much they gave? 

A Well, I used to know but, again, that is a matter 
of financial record. 

Q If you were to review your financial records, would 
you be able to pick out the contributions to which you are 
referring? 

A Probably. 

MR. HcGOUGH: Could I ask that he attempt to do 
that? It doesn't seem to roe to be an outlandish request that 
he take a look. 

MS. LUBIN: Off the record, please. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. McGOUGH: Back on the record. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q Other than Mr. Hooper or Dr. Adamkiewicz and Mrs 
Christian, anyone else that you can recall being solicited 
for lethal assistance or weapons? 

A None that I recall. 



UNCLASSinED 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



571 



Q When I was asking you questions two weeks ago, or 
whenever it was, the first day, we were discussing, really 
focusing on the period from early 1985 up until the Hunt 
solicitation in September or so of 1985. At that time I 
asked you, I believe, whether in the Spring of 1985 you h. -i 
any reservations about what you were doing vis-a-vis solic - 
ting, the types of solicitations, the things you were 
soliciting money for. I think, if I recall correctly, that 
you said you didn't at that time, but that later on you began 
to develop reservations of that, the propriety of what you 
were doing. 

A Yes. 

Q I would like to explore that a little bit with you 
and ask you when you began to develop those reservations, and 
why you began to develop those reservations. First, when? 
THE WITNESS: Can we go off the record. 
MR. McGOUGH: Off the record. 

[Briefly off the record. Witness and counsel 
conault privately. ] 

MR. McGOUGH: Back on the record. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q I can repeat the question, which is, essentially, 
when did you begin to have reservations about the propriety 
of what you were doing? 

A In September of 1985. 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



572 



Q Was it triggered by a specific event? 

A Yes. 

Q What was that? 

A In the solicitation of Bunker Hunt, when Ollie 
North produced his list of weapons. 

Q Now you knew, going into that solicitation, that 
Colonel North was going to bring with him a list, did you not? 

A Yes. 

Q I believe you told us before that you, at that 
time, told him he could put anything he wanted on the list as 
long as it totaled up to a certain amount. 

A Yes . 

Q Did you know, going into the solicitation, before 
he actually produced the list for Mr. Hunt, that that list 
had weapons on it? 

A No. 

Q Ware you surprised that it had w«apons on it? 

A Yes. 

Q Why? 

A My concept of how the arrangeawnt was working, 
Mnder which we could legally do this, was the concept of 
fungible money. So in other words, if we sent money directly 
to the Contras it could be used for the stated purposes, 
humanitarian aid, food, boots and so on. That, in turn, 
would free up money that the Contras bttd^jotten from other 



y that the Contras had^o 



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)07CSuen NE 2 5 

WuhiOfton. D C 20CO2 
{202) !46-M6« 



UNCLASSIRED 



573 



sources that they wouldn't have to spend on food and that, 
therefore, they could turn around and spend on weapons. 

So when he produced a list of weapons, it struck me 
that what he should have produced was a $14 million list, 
half of which was weapons. Then we asked for $7 million, it 
could go directly for the humanitarian aid part, and then it 
would free up $7 million that could be spent on weapons. 

Q But going into that meeting, you didn't specifically 
tell Colonel North to do that? 

A No. I no idea he was going to do that. 

Q Certainly by that time you knew, did you not, that 
there were people out there who would prefer to contribute to 
weapons rather than humanitarian, did you not? 

A Oh, sure. 

Q John Ramsey, perhaps, being an example of that? 

A Sure. 

Q Up until that Hunt meeting, did you ever consider 
it expeditious to approach those people and say, "Give money 
for weapons," specifically? 

A I didn't consider it expeditious. 

Q what was it about soliciting for weapons, per se, 
that you found unsettling? 

A Well, I believe someone said that that was illegal, 
but I don't recall who. 

Q You mean someone at that time said it was illegal? 



n someone at that time st 



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mjun m r tmimt co.. hc. 
«)7CStntt. NE 25 

Vuhiofua. O C 20002 



WIASSIFIED 



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A At some time since I arrived in Washington. Up 
until that time I had been informed by somebody — I don't 
even know in what connection -- that soliciting money for 
arms was illegal. 

Q At the time of the Hunt dinner, did you take any 
action on the basis of your reservations? Did you have any 
discussions with anyone about it? 

A No. 

Q Did you talk to Mr. Channell about it? 

A No. 

Q Would it be fair to say that after the Hunt dinner, 
as things went further along, your reservations began to grow? 

A I guess not. 

Q Did you ultimately become more comfortable with 
that type of solicitation, that is solicitation for weapons 
alone? 

A Yes. 

Q Why? 

A Because I felt that we had found a way to be able 
to legally do it. 

Q And what was that way? 

A I have just described it, which is the fungible- 
money concept. 

Q But we can also agree that you were aware of 
solicitations being made directly for weapons; that is, where 



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■laioi iii> o ii T w o CO., MC 

MTCSciMt. NE 25 

Vadunfnxi. O C. 20002 



Hfumm 



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a donor was being told, "If you contribute $44,000 you can 
buy two Red Eye missiles"? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, that is no longer fungible money, is it? 

A Yes. The way I perceived it, what you could do -- 
I didn't find out until much later, I think in the last few 
months, that it is illegal to ask for the weapons. What I 
thought was illegal was if you bought the weapons. Well, we 
weren't ever buying weapons. We never once bought a single 
weapon, never once sent any money for that purpose. We sent 
money for humanitarian aid, so I thought it didn't make any 
difference what we asked for. 

And if they liked it, if they liked to give for 
that, fine; and who were we to say that, in fact, the money 
wouldn't eventually end up freeing up other money so that it 
could, in fact, be spent on those things. 

Q By late 1985, you had been involved in fundraising 
for a considerable period of time, had you not? 

A Yes. 

Q Up until that time, had you ever told someone that 
they were giving money for something and then not taking 
steps to ensure that that money actually was applied to that 
purpose? 

A Well, that occasion had never arisen before. 
Raising money is — it is someone else's responsibility to 

IIMOI AOOlLlLii 



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spend it. 



Q But once you have raised the money, don't you feel 
that you have some obligation, at least a minimal obligation, 
to ensure that the money is spent for the purpose for which 
you are raising it? 

A Well, to the extent that I can do that, I mean to 
the extent that you think the people who are spending the 
money aren't doing it properly. That never arose in all the 
time that I was doing this . 

Q I guess what I am driving at — I don't want to be 
veiled about it — is didn't you feel some — weren't you 
misrepresenting things to your donors by telling them that if 
they gave $22,000 or $44,000, they would be contributing 
toward the purchase of Red Eye missiles when, in fact, what 
you were going to do was throw the money in a big pot without 
any idea as to what was going to happen to that money? 

A Well, I didn't think it was misleading. I think it 
is more like the rhythm with which you beat the drum. I mean 
they are deeply interested in going forth into battle, and 
you ignore that at your peril . 

Q Let's talk about Mrs. Garwood for a minute, who was 
presented with an arms list by Colonel North. 

A Yes. 

Q And was told that if she gave a $1.2 million -- I 
don't know if that is a correct figure, $1.2 million — that 

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>07CSat«. NE 2 5 

Wuhiofna. O C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



577 



these arms could be purchased, all right. Was it your 
understanding that if Mrs. Garwood gave that $1.2 million, 
that that money would, in fact, be used for those arms? 

A I did not know. 

Q Did you consider it NEPL's obligation to find out? 

A No. 

Q Did you see anything wrong with NEPL telling her, 
presenting her with an arms list, telling her that if she 
gave $1.2 million, those arms would be purchased when, in 
fact, what you were telling her was that it would be con- 
tributed — when, in fact, what would be done is that it 
would be contributed to fungible money for the Contras? 

A Well, I didn't see a problem there. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Channell any reser- 
vation you had about soliciting' money for arms. Let's set 
aside what happened to the money after you got it, but did 
you ever discuss with Mr. Channell any reservations you had 
about asking these people for money for arms? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever discuss any such reservations with 
Colonel North? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q When NEPL received a contribution from a donor, and 
let's talk about for direct assistance to the Contras. When 
it received a contribution for direct assistance, did it 

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amjLO) MPumwu co., hc 

M7 C Sonr. N E. 25 

Wahioftos. O C. 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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deduct a certain amount from that contribution before passing 
it along to IBC or to Adolfo Calero, or wherever the contrib- 
ution went? 

A Sometimes. 

Q Was there a fixed percentage that NEPL took for 
overhead or expenses? 
A No. 

Did it vary? 
Yes. 



Who mae the determination as to how much to take? 
A 

Spitz. 

what is the lowest amount you ever recall being 



deducted from a contribution before it was passed along? 



Well, in some cases, we added to it. 

So in some cases the entire contribution was passed 



A 

Q 
along? 

A Plus other monies. 

Q What is the highest amount you recall being 

retained by NEPL from a particular contribution? 

A Well, I would have to look at the financial 

records. I don't know. 

Q Higher than 50 percent? 

A Oh, I don't think. 

Q You can't recall any instances of that happening? 



I don't think so, no 



think so, no. Ii.via%ki. 



usually was like 20 



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>07 C Scrtei. N E 25 

WufcinfToa. D C 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



579 



or 25 percent, but it varied all over the board. 

Q What, if anything, do you know about Colonel 
North's role in steering the funds to the Contras? You knew 
he directed you to make the contributions to IBC. 

A Right. 

Q what, if any, role did you believe him to have, or 
did you know him to have, after that contribution was made to 
IBC? 

A I didn't know specifically. 

Q Did you ever talk to Rich Miller or anyone at IBC 
about what happened to the money after it went into IBC? 

A We asked them to give us an accounting. 

Q And never got that accounting, as I recall, until 
February of 1987. 

A Right. Correct. 

Q In the meantime, did you ever discuss what was 
happening to the money with IBC? 

A No, not that I recall. 

Q Did you ever discuss what was happening to the 
money with Colonel North? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall an incident where Mr. Hooper called 
and wanted to know how his money had been spent? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall contacting Colonel North to find out 

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J07 C imn. N E 2 5 

Vaihmfuxi. DC 20002 



UNCUssm 



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that information? 

A No. What happened, Jane McLaughlin told me that 
Hooper called — who did you say? Ralph Hooper? 

Q I think it was Bruce Hooper. 

A Well, one of the two. -- called and wanted to know 
how his money had been spent, and that message should be 
gotten to Ollie. I told Spitz, and that was the end of it, 
as far as I was concerned. 

Q Were you ever aware of a representation being made 
to any contributor that if a certain amount of money as 
contributed to NEPL, a meeting between the contributor and 
President Reagan would be arranged? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever hear Mr. Channell discuss such an 
arrangement, such a possibility? 

A Well, not in the way you are putting it. He 
discussed at what level they had to contribute before we 
would consider taking them in to see the President. 

Q Do you recall what that level was? 

A Well, it varied from time to time. 

Q What did it vary from and to? 

A Well, the highest it ever was, that I recall, was 
$250,000, and the lowest — I don't really remember the low, 
something like S 100, 000. I don't remember exactly. 

Q Do you Z''i''J'- ICC ^ U -£'lft JWi'tf^*lJ''° ' ""J pegged at 



rai«iJt(Mffl: 



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Wnhmftoo. DC. 20002 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



581 



$300,000? 

A I don't remember that. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Channell ever made that represen- 
tation to Edie Frazier? 

A I have no knowledge. 

Q Do you recall any discussions along those lines 
with Ms. Frazier? 

A No. 

Q There came a point, did there not, when you became 
NEPL's primary contact with Colonel North; is that fair to 
say? 

A Yes. 

Q You had much more contact with him than Mr. Channell 
did, as a matter of fact? 

A Yes. 

Q Mr. Channell would ask you to have Colonel North do 
things? 

A Yes. 

Q Why did that evolve in your direction as opposed to 
Mr. Channell 's? 

A Spitz said that I had an unusual relationship with 
Colonel North. I didn't know any better, and said, "Okay. 
Fine." So he said, "From now on, you need to handle all these 
things. He talks to you more than he talks to me." 

Q So from then on, you were the one in charge, you 

mini inoirirn 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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were the liaison — to use a hackneyed phrase — with Colonel 
North; is that fair to say? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you describe your relationship with Colonel 
North? How often did you meet with him? 

A Maybe a couple times a month. Sometimes more, 
sometimes less . 

Q Did you speak to him on the phone at all? 

A Occasionally. Not very often. 

Q Other than the Newington weekend, did you ever meet 
his family? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever see him socially or outside of 
professional context? 

A He came to a party with his wife once, in November. 

Q Was it a NEPL function or a private party? 

A It was a NEPL function. 

Q Was that the election party? 

A Yes, election party. 

Q Other than that incident? 

A Well, we would meet at the Hay Adams Hotel and 
usually have a drink or dinner, food or something. 

Q But always with a professional overtone to it? 

A Yes. I think once we left his office and he took 
me home in his truck, to my home and dropped me off. 

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UNCussra 



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Q There came a time in December of 1986 when the NEPL 
offices actually closed down; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Why was that? 

A We were concerned about security, and we were going 
to close anyway, so we just closed a little early. 

Q What caused concern about security? 

A Documents of ours were — I don't know. I can't 
recall the timing of this, but they were either actually 
appearing in the press or parts from them were appearing in 
the press, or something. 

Q Was that after the rift began to develop with Jane 
McLaughlin? 

A No. Well, I mean there wasn't a rift until she 
announced it. 

Q She worked up until the point where the offices 
were closed, did she not? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you go into the offices during the period of 
time they were closed? 

A I don't think so. I might have, but I don't 
remember . 

Q Do you know if anyone else went into the offices 
during the period of time they were closed? 

A Maybe. I don't recall. 

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Q You have discussed changing the designation on the 
Toys account in some fashion. 

A Yes. 

Q Because you didn't feel that was representative of 
the contents of that account; is that fair to say? 

A Right. 

Q What was the content, what were the contents of 
that account? 

A It was a mishmash, all sorts of things, all sorts 
of expenses. 

Q Did it include direct assistance to the Contras? 

A It may have. That, I don't know. I would have to 
look at the record to see. I mean we have two issues here. 
One is the income and the other is the expenses, and I would 
have to review what was put into that account and what was 
taken out and so on. 

Q Was that the account into which direct assistance 
to tha Contras was placed? 

A I was given to understand that in some cases, that 



was so . 
Q 
A 
Q 

go? 

A 



But not in all cases? 
But not in all cases. 
Where else would direct assistance to the Contras 

In other accounts. As I said, it was a mishmash. 



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HU(R H M U H IKQ CO.. HC. 
M7 C Siren. NE 25 

Vutuofimi. C 20C02 



UNCLASSIFIED 



585 



It never should have been done. 

Q I believe you testified that the name was changed 
to something, and you didn't recall what; is that correct? 

A Right. 

Q Does CAFP-TV ring a bell? 

A Yes. I mean that may be it. 

Q Why was that designation chose? 

A I didn't care what the designation was. I mean I 
just said, "Change it." I didn't care. I think he actually, 
Steve McMahon, proposed that neune and I said, "That's fine. 
I don't care what you call it." 

Q But if the purpose was that it was misnamed in the 
first place, why didn't you care what it was renamed to? 

A Well, we had a little discussion about some 
alternative names. The reason I didn't care is because it 
was not the appropriate way that the money should be handled, 
so it was largely irrelevant what it was called, as far as I 
was concerned. You might call it the "Moon Account," for all 
I care, because it was not a rational setting up of an 
account, to begin with. 

The only reason I wanted to change it from "Toys" 
is because that was coming out in the press that we were, in 
fact, using this to buy weapons with, and that wasn't its 
purpose. So we were getting lambasted for no reason. So I 
said, "Change the name." 



UNCLASSIFIED 



780 



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Q 

A 

Q 
Christmas? 

A 

Q 
closed? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 



When did that take place? 
I don't recall. 

Was it before or after NEPL's offices closed over 
> 

I don't recall. 

Was it during the time that NEPL's offices were 



I don't recall. 

Could it have been during that period of time? 
Yes, it could have been. 

To your knowledge, were any accounting records, 
particularly accounting records, removed from NEPL's premises? 
A Yes. 

Q When and by whom? 

A Well, I believe they were removed in December of 
1986, and I forget who removed them. 
Q Why were they removed? 

A Because Linda Guell had told me that she had copies 
of all of our financial records, and we wanted our financial 
records to be secure. It was not other people's business. 
So we removed them to keep them safe. 

Q Other than the designation on the Toys account, 
what, if any, changes were made in NEPL's financial records? 
A I don't think any. 
Q That was the sole change, to YOiif knowledge, that 



the sole change, to YOiif 

imni looincn 



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MTCScRct. NE 25 

WMhinfrao. O C i0002 



UNCLASSra 



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was made in those records? 
A Yes. 

Q When was the last time you saw Colonel North? 
A I eun not sure. 

Q Well, we have heard about a breakfast, a North 
appreciation breakfast on November 10th, 1986. Have you seen 
him since then? 

A Not that I recall. 

Have you spoken to him since then? 

Yes. 

On what occasion? 

In December. 

What was the occasion for that conversation? 

I wanted to get Fawn Hall's home phone number. 

Where did you call him? 

At his attorney's office. 

Did you speak to him directly? 

Yes. 

What was the substance of the conversation? 

I said I wanted Fawn's phone number, and he gave it 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 

to me. 
Q 



Did you have any other discussion with him at that 



time? 

A He said he didn't want to have a substantive 
conversation, on _the,^'^c^ ^^l^^ft^^p^l^pj'ney, and I said. 



iMnOTtni 



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UNCLASSIHED 



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"Fine." I understood that. 

Q The conversation ended at that point? 

A Yes. 

Q Why did you ask for Fawn Hall's home phone number? 

A Because I wanted to call her and assure her that we 
were still in her corner and would be helpful to her if we 
could possibly be. 

Q Meaning what? What did you mean by "helpful"? 

A If she needed anything, she was supposed to let us 
know. 

Q Did you have that discussion with her? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Oh, the press of other matters. 

Q Have you spoken to Fawn Hall since, say, November 
of 1986 

A NO. 

Q Other than that one telephone conversation, to get 
Fatm Hall's telephone number from Colonel North, do you 
recall any other conversations with Colonel North since the 
breakfast on November 10th? 

A No. 

Q Have you spoken with Colonel North's attorney since 
that time? 



A I don't think 



uMoimtanT 



Not that I 



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recall . 

Q Brendon Sullivan and Barry Simon. You don't think 
you spoke with them? 

A No. 

Q There came a time when NEPL hired a public relations 
person by the name of Gerard Cameron, I believe. 

A Yes. I mean Peter Hanaford. 

Q Pardon me? 

A Peter Hanaford is who we hired. 

Q All right. 

A And Gerard came along in the package. 

Q All right. WHen was that done? 

A I don't recall the time. 

Q After the allegations about the Iran-Contra matter 
began to break in the press? 

A Yes. 

Q Why was that done? 

A We wanted public relations counsel that wasn't tied 
in with us . 

Q What do you mean by "public relations counsel"? 

A Public relations counsel — I don't know what else 
to say. A consultant, a consulting firm who were in the 
business of public relations. 

Q Did you want somebody to ^^^Miffsnpns from the 



press for you? 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



590 



A Well, conceivably. 

Q Did, in fact, they field press inquiries for you? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you discuss your activities with Colonel North 
with your public relations consultants? 

A I did not. 

Q Do you know if Mr. Channell did? 

A I think he did. 

Q Were you present when those discussions took place? 

A No. 

Q To your knowledge, were the public relations 
consultants advised of the nature of your solicitations for 
arms? 

A I don't know. 

Q Did you yourself make any statements to the press 
after the allegations began to emerge? 

A No. 

Q I have a few specific points that arose out of some 
of the documents. 

A Only a few? 

Q Only a few. Turn, if you would, — this is a 
deposition exhibit — to the to-do list of February 22, 1986. 

A Page? 

Q Page 2. There is a heading there, "Marty Artiano," 
and then a list of items, including "A. RR meetings," and 

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Wuhiaiuo. D C 20002 
(202) M«-«M« 



UNCLASSIFIED 



591 



then there is a list of people. And those are people that you 
wanted to try to schedule meetings with Ronald Reagan? 
A Yes. 

Q When you made those requests for meetings with 
Ronald Reagan, did you deal directly with David Fischer or 
did you deal with Marty Artiano? 

A Well, they were a pair. 

Q Did you treat them as fungible, approach either one 
of them, or did you deal more with Mr. Artiano or more with 
Mr. Fischer? 

A I don't remember, really. 

Q What I would like to explore for a minute is your 
perception of the relationship or with respect to the roles of 
Mr. Artiano and Mr. Fischer. Mr. Fischer was President 
Reagan's former Appointment Secretary — 

A I understand he was his Personal Assistant. 

Q Personal Assistant. 

A That is not the same. 

Q I am not sure of the exact title. At any rate, he 
was an assistant to President Reagan. Mr. Artiano had never 
worked in the White House; as best we understand, he had held 
various positions in the campaign and in the Administration. 
But as far as the White House itself was concerned, I don't 
believe he had worked there. 

A I don't know. 1 ttioostltabAab*^ but I could be 



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wrong . 

Q I guess my question is, how did you perceive -- to 
whom did you go when you wanted to schedule such appointments , 
and why did you go there? 

A Well, I mean we just had discussions, and we would 
normally solve them together, and we said, "We want --" 
Marty was the person who acted in charge. 

Q That is kind of what I want to develop. You say 
Mr. Artiano acted like he was in charge; could you elaborate 
on that a little bit? 

A Well, he was the one with whom you discussed the 
business arrangement, for example. David usually didn't say 
very much, and Marty would extemporize at the drop of a hat, 
and so on. So he was just the leading person. I don't know 
how to explain it. It is perfectly obvious when you see the 
two of them together. But they were normally together when 
we would put our requests in. 

Q So when it came to negotiating business arrangements 
or having discussions about fees and that sort of thing, Mr. 
Artiano would have been the dominant person as between the 
two of them; is that fair to say? 

A Yes. 

Q Tell me a little bit, if you would, about your 
contact with Rob Owen. When did you first meet him? 

A At the breakfast on^QVMiMV^Mth, 1986. 



iui'Ht ir(«f ttirff 



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-2021 i*t-6iii 



UNClliSSIFIED 



593 



Q Had you had contact with him before then? 

A I had reached him by telephone in, I think, the 
Summer of 1985 in error. I was looking for someone else and 
he answered the phone . 

Q what, if any, relationship did you understand him 
to have with Colonel North? 

A I didn't know anything about his relationship with 
Colonel North. 

Q I notice on -- I am not sure which deposition 
exhibit this is — Exhibit 11. 

MR. OLIVER: Mr. Conrad, you said that you had 
called, looking for someone else, and he answered the phone. 
Who is that someone else that you were looking for, and where 
was this phone, if you recall? 

THE WITNESS: The man's name is Wesley Smith who I 
was looking for, and he worked for Rob Owen. I knew that, 
and he said, "If you want to reach me, call me here in the 
daytime. And if I am not here, the message machine will be 
on." One time I called and Rob himself answered. 
MR. OLIVER: When was that phone call? 
THE WITNESS: I think in June or July of 1985. He 
took a message, and that was the end of it. I mean it was 
not a lengthy conversation. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q My question on *-h i ° JL'J^t^t t^TJ ^^ message in the 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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lower left-hand corner. It lists the attendees at the meeting 
of November 6th as "North, Terry Arnold, Neil Livingston, 
CRC, Dan, Rob." Would you have recognized that as a reference 
to Rob Owen? 

A No. 

Q Would Mr. Channell have recognized that as a 
reference to Rob Owen? 

A I don't have any idea. 

Q Do you know what, if any contact, Mr. Channell had 
with Rob Owen? 

A I have no idea . 

Q I don't think we have to turn to the document, but 
there is a note written on the back of an agenda, referring 
to mult i- frequency radios and 50 SAM missiles. I think you 
probably remember that. 

A Yes. 

Q You said that was taken during a meeting with 
Colonel North sometime around November 18th, 1985, which was 
the agenda thereof. Was anyone else present at the meeting 
when that note was taken? 

A No. 

Q At the time that note was taken, was Colonel North 
aware that you were going to use this information to solicit 



funds? 



UNCUSSiriED 



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'2011 U6-6tii 



UNCLASSIRED 



595 



Q what did you tell him? Why did he give you the 
information? 

A Just simple information. He had these radios — how 
much SAM missiles cost and how much the multi-band frequency 
radios cost. 

Q I think you said that he had mentioned these things. 

A In the course of his briefing, yes. 

Q And Mr. Channell asked you to find out how much 
they cost. 

A Yes. I mean, so it was a simple information 
exchange. 

Q You mentioned that you saw but did not meet Barbara 
Studley, I think, at the Hay Adams Hotel. 

A Yes. Right. 

Q Can you tell me what that was all about; how you 
saw her and didn't meet her, and when? 

A Colonel North and I were sitting at a table. I 
don't remember if we were drinking or eating or what, and I 
don't remember who else was there or, indeed, if there was 
anyone else there. But he was distracted from our conver- 
sation by seeing who she was, and he got up and greeted her, 
and walked over a little ways, greeted her, and chatted for a 
little while and then came back. 

I said, "Who's that?" words to that effect, and he 

of Singlaub's 



said, "Oh, that is Barbara Studley 

.\\m 



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MUJN WPOWT W O CO., MC 
}07 C Sotti. N E 25 

VlAurtn. DC 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



596 



big contributors, or maybe even said, "her biggest con- 
tributor," I don't know. I said, "Oh, that is interesting," 
and I immediately wrote down the name. 

Q There came a time when you -- and I believe it 
starts in early 1986 — have notes in your to-do list, "Green 
shopping list," and "Get new Green shopping list by Monday," 
and that is circled, with dashes by it. 

A Paramecium all around it. That is right 

Q And I think you said — correct me if I am wrong — 
that you were relaying this request to Colonel North. 

A Yes. 

Q And saying, "Would you please get us this list?L ' 

A Yes. 

Q Did Colonel North ever say, "No, I am not going to 
give you that list" or did he just never produce it? 

A He just never produced it. 

Q Did he ever say he would produce would produce the 
list? 

A Oh, he always promised he would produce it. 

Q and just never did? 

A Yes. 

Q Let's talk for a moment about Mr. Harper and the 
referral from Secretary Shultz. What do you know about the 
mechanism -- I mean tell me what you know about how it 
worked. Did Secretary Shultz tell this to Colonel North? 



Shultz tell this to Colo 



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)07CSnrei. NE 25 

Wtriunfton. O C 21)002 



UNCUSSIRED 



597 



A I don't know. Colonel North raised the subject 
with me and said, as I have said before, he encountered this 
contributor in a setting which was not made clear to me. 

Q "He" being Secretary Shultz? 

A Yes. I don't even know how it got filtered down to 
us but, anyway, we were alerted. Colonel North said, "Be on 
the alert because this person is going to call." 

Q You don't know when or where, or the actual contact 
between Secretary Shultz — 

A No, I don't remember. I mean -- I am sorry. NOt 
that I don't remember; I wasn't told. 

Q There was a series of questions asked by Mr. Fryman 
about an entry referring to a trip you wanted to take with 
Elliott Abrams to California, "CA. " 

A Yes. 

Q for fundraising purposes. 

A Yes. 

Q You testified that that trip never occurred. 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ever discuss that trip with Mr. Abrams? 

A No. 

Q Was this just something you wanted to do and never 
broached with him? 

A I never did. 



UNClASSiFIED 



To your knowledge, did anyone discuss the trip with 



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IMJ.III M Xm iWU CO.. MC 
>07 C SfRR. N E 2 5 

Wuhufran. DC. 20002 
(202) M6-6M« 



UNCUSSIFIED 



598 



Mr. Abrams? 

A Maybe; I don't know. 

Q Turning to Exhibit 9, which are the handwritten 
notes; these are the notes dated June 3rd, 19 86. 

A Wait, I can't find it. 

Q June 3rd, 1986. It is almost midpoint. 

A Okay. I have got it. 

Q Four lines up from the bottom, "Send to-do list to 
Rich and David." 

A Yes. 

Q What is that a reference to? 

A They are getting out of control. 

Q "Rich" being Rich Miller? 

A Yes. 

Q And "David" being David Fischer? 

A Yes. And they are not accomplishing all the things 
that they need to accomplish, and so I began to make up to-do 
lists for them. This is my crusade, to organize the world. 

Q Would these be the same to-do lists you were 
producing for yourself or would they be particularized ones, 
directed to them? 

A They would be subsets of my own list. 

Q 

A 

Q On the next page, July 14th, 1986, there is the 



So you wouldn't just send them your entire list? 
Oh, absolutely not. 



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UNCLASSIHED 



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UHUSl 

)0;CStrm, NE. 25 

Wiiliia(ton. D C 20O02 



reference to "Green weekend in Connecticut and Barbara 
Newington." I would like you to tell me whether you recall, 
during Colonel North's visit with Mrs. Newington, any 
discussion of, quote, "business," closed quote; that is, any 
discussion or solicitation, or any discussion of Nicaragua, 
any solicitation for money. 

A Well, we all sat around a table. Ollie talked 
about Nicaragua and what was currently happening there. As I 
recall, there was no solicitation at that time. But I think 
one did occur, but I don't recall the specifics, of it. 

Q To you recall whether Colonel North initiated the 
discussion of Nicaragua or whether someone else did? 

A Oh, I think Spitz was playing ringmaster. 

Q Meaning that you believe he initiated the discussion 
of Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q Was Colonel North's family present when that 
discussion took place? 

A They were out at the pool . 

Q Do you recall who was present? 

A Rich Miller, Spitz Channell, myself, Oliver North, 
Mrs. Newington. 

How long did the discussion last, if you can recall? 
Not very long; half an hour. 

Q In that half hour, was the topic of discussion the 




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ttntmsw 



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current situation in Nicaragua? 

A As I recall. 

Q When you say, "around the table," was that inside 
or outside? 

A Inside. 

MR. McGOUGH: Off the record for a second. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. McGOUGH: Back on the record. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q Mr. Conrad, you discussed with Mr. Fryman a request 
by Mrs. Garwood's attorney to send a letter to her, indicating 
that the purpose for her contributions were humanitarian. I 
think if you want to refresh your recollection, there is a 
note, dated October 3rd, 1986, that reads, "Letter to Ellen's 
attorneys, food, medical supplies, transportation, logistical 
support, ambulance services." 

Am I correct in my summary that this was a request 
from her attorneys for a letter saying, essentially, that her 
contributions were used for humanitarian purposes; is that 
right? 

A Yes. 

Q I think you said that was one of the things you 
never go to; that as far as you recall, you did not -- at 
least to your knowledge, you never sent that letter out. 

A Right. 



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507 C Siren. NE 25 

Vuliiiifiixi. D C 2000] 
(202) 54&-MM 



UNCLASSIFIED 



601 



Q At the time you made this note, you were aware, 
were you not, that Mrs. Garwood had, in fact, been solicited 
for arms? 

A I don't know if I knew that or not. 

Q This is October 3rd of 1986. I believe we have had 
testimony that the list that Colonel North gave her, in the 
cocktail lounge, was in April or May of 1986. I believe you 
indicated that Mr. Channell told you, more or less 
contemporaneously, — 

A Oh, that is right. I forgot about that. 

Q — that this list had been given to her; is that 
right? 

A Yes. 

Q So you were aware, in October of 1986, that she had 
been solicited for things other than food, medical supplies, 
transportation, logistic support and ambulance services, were 
you not? 

A But I believe the question was, "What had her 
contributions gone for?" which is a different question than 
"What had she been solicited for?" 

Q All right. Drawing that distinction, were you 
aware at that point that it had gone for food, medical 
supplies, transportation, logistical support and ambulance 
services? 

A We were assuming, because of the fact that we had 



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Vuhioiioa. C 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



602 



no evidence to the contrary, that it had gone for humanitarian 
aid, and this was just an elaboration of the items of 
humanitarian aid. 

Q You say you had no evidence to the contrary, but 
you had no evidence to the affirmative either, did you? 

A True . 

Q In ottier words, you didn't know and, in the 
fungible-funds theory, it could just as easily have gone to 
arms as to these items; is that not right? 

A Well, in the fungible-money concept, it could have 
gone for anything. 

Q I understand. But here is an attorney contacting 
you and saying, "What was her money used for?" and you were 
aware, certainly by October of 1986, of the important 
distinction between money going for arms and money going for 
humanitarian purposes, were you not? 

A yes. 

Q And the attorney wanted assurances, did he not, 
that her money had been used for humanitarian purposes , is 
that right? 

A Yes. 

Q And what you had on your hands, at that point, was 
really no evidence one way or the other as to whether her 
money had gone to humanitarian purposes; is that iy.aht? 

A That is correct. 




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UNCUSSIFIED 



603 



Q And, yet, you were willing to make the represen- 
tation to this attorney that the money had, in fact, gone for 
humanitarian purposes. 

A Well, we didn't. 

Q You didn't; but you were willing, at that time, to 
make it. 

A Well, I don't know how willing, if you didn't do 
it. What is "willing"? 

Q Did you raise that with Mr. Channell at the time? 

A No. 

Q I believe you said that Mr. Channell wanted you to 
send this letter to Mrs. Garwood's attorneys — 

A Yes. 

Q — and that is why you have a note. 

A Yes. 

Q Did you say to Mr. Channell, "No, I won't do that"? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Why didn't I say I wouldn't? 

Q Did you say you would do it? 

A I didn't say. I said, "Thank you," and wrote the 
note. 

Q Did you make a conscious deci^sj^ go^ 
letter? 

A No. Just got lost in the shuffle. 




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uNttussm 



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Q But it was something you were certainly willing to 
do? 

A Well, I would have drafted something, sure. 

Q Did it bother you that Mr. Channel 1 was asking you 
to write that letter? 

A No. 

Q Did you believe that a letter of that kind would 
have been misleading? 

A Well, as I never wrote it, it is conjectural, at 
best. 

Q At best. Let's take a look at your notes of 
October 20th, 1986, and there is the category "NEPL. " These 
are written, I think you said, as of October 20, 1986; is 
that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Under "NEPL, " Item A is "Organize and administer 
Central American Freedom Program, November '86 to March '87." 
That is your task for that period of time; I mean that is the 
period of time during which you are going to do "A, " is that 
fair to say? 



Yes. 



A projection? 



Yes. 



UNCLASSIHED 



Q "B" is "Organize and administer Nicaraguan Humani- 
tarian Aid Program, April '87 through December '87." First 



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of all, what is the "Nicaraguan Humanitarian Aid Program"? 
A It is direct aid to the Freedom Fighters. 
Q Why do you call it "Nicaraguan Humanitarian Aid 
Program? " 

A I don't know; just the way we did it. 
Q Up to this point we have been discussing, as we 
said, fungible money, and can we agree that humanitarian aid 
was, perhaps, one aspect of fungible money, but not the only 
aspect of fungible money? 

A Yes. You then have "April '87 through December of 
'87." Why the six-month hiatus in the Nicaraguan Humanitarian 
Aid Program? 

A I think because we thought that we wouldn't need 
any more until Congress — until the humanitarian aid that 
had been allocated to the Freedom Fighters would expire, 
which I think is the Spring of 1987. 

Q I think the humanitarian aid expired the Spring of 
1986, and I think in the Fall of 1986 the Contras were 
looking at $100 million in assistance that would carry them 
through Fiscal Year 1986. 

A Okay . 

Q Does that refresh your recollection? 

A Anyway, we felt that they ^i^i^'^jj^^i^ it, is our 
basic point. 

Q But you felt they would need it in April of 1987 




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UNCUSSIHED 



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A Well, we were going to reexamine the situation then. 

Q I notice A, C and D all really call for programs to 
begin the next month, that is November of 1986; is that fair 
to say? 

A Yes. 

Q And that of the four NEPL projects, the only one 
that is going to be postponed for six months is the, quote, 
"Humanitarian Aid Program. " 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall when the Hasenfus plane was shot down 
in Nicaragua, when Mr. Hasenfus was captured by the 
Sandinistas? 

A I remember the incident but I don't remember when 
it occurred. 

Q As a point of reference, let's put it in early 
October 1986. 

A Wonderful . 

Q Were you concerned, when the Hasenfus incident 
occurred, about the security of your own program? 

A No. 

Q Up until that time, you had been raising money, had 
you not, for heavy lifting and air drops? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you make any inquiries to determine whether the 
Hasenfus airplane was one of the planes that might have been 

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UNCLASSIRED 



607 



associated with your direct assistance? 
A No. 

Q Were you concerned that it might have been? 
A No. 

Q Were there any discussions of that possibility? 
A No. 

Q In late October of 1986, were you beginning to have 
reservations about whether your direct assistance to the 
Contras would remain a confidential much longer? 
A No. 

Q Turn if you would to -- I am not sure what the page 
is, but it is a portion of these giver breakdowns that you 
have. 

MR. OLIVER: What is the number? 
MR. McGOUGH: It is Control Number 33327. 
MR. OLIVER: It is in the handwritten notes? 
MR. McGOUGH: Yes. 
THE WITNESS: I have it. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q I believe you have identified that as Jane 
McLaughlin's handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q And it is the first of several pages, her breakdown 
there. Was this given to you, do you know? 
A (Witness peruses document.) 



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(102) M«-6«M 



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Probably it was. Yes, I think it all was, yes. 
The only thing I looked at was the next page . 

Q The last page, or 33328? 

A Yes. 

Q The bottom entry has the entry "Toys" on the page 
that I have referenced, that is 33327. 

A Right . 

Q What did you understand that to be a reference to? 

A As I said, I don't recall ever having seen this 
page before. I am sure I was given it in the package, but 
the only one I paid any attention was the next page, which 
was the summary of the whole thing. 

Q Would you have understood that, at the time, to be 
a reference to direct assistance to the Contras? 

A I don't know. I don't know whether I would have or 
not. 

Q Flip back about six pages to 35090, and it is the 
on« that says, "IBC fees received from ACT and NEPL. " 

A (Witness peruses documents.) 

Q "IBC fees received from ACT and NEPL." There is 
the entry "6/19 Palmer Wire contribution, $130,000." I 
believe you testified yesterday that you thought this was 



1985. 



A Yes. 



UNCLASSIRED 



Correct me if I am wrong, but either you or 



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{201) ■m-nit 



UNCIASSIFO 



609 



Mr. Channell has told us that at a dinner on July 9th, 1985, 
Colonel North told you that henceforth, your direct aid to the 
Contras should be passed to IBC. 

A Yes. 

Q The June 19th contribution. Palmer Wire, for 
$130,000, do you know how that came about? 

A I have no idea . 

Q It is about three weeks before the July 9th dinner. 

A I don't know. 

Q Do you recall that contribution? 

A I think it was from Barbara Newington, but I don't 
know any more about it. 

Q Do you know if it was passed on to IBC? 

A I don't know. 

Q to your knowledge, were any of the direct aid 
contributions made through IBC prior to July 9th, 1985? 

A Say that again; I am sorry. 

Q To your knowledge, were any of the direct aid 
contributions for the Contras made through IBC prior to your 
dinner with Colonel North, or your dinner at the Hay Adams, 
on July 9th, 19857 

A I don't know. 

Q What time of day did the meeting at the Hay Adams 
take place on July 9th? Was it a dinner, a lunch, a break- 
fast? Was there a meal associe 



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A There was dark beer associated with it. It was an 
evening meeting, early evening, as I recall. 

Q Mr. Conrad, you have also been immunized by the 
Independent Counsel; is that correct? 

MS. LUBIN: Can we hold on that one? 

MR. McGOUGH: I thought I would put it on the 
record. Just for the record, this is a matter that counsel 
have discussed. My intention is to inquire into Mr. Conrad's 
status with the Independent Counsel and any agreements that 
might be outstanding with the Independent Counsel regarding 
Mr. Conrad's testimony. 

I would agree to hold on it, with the understanding 
that we will get, preferably in writing, some indication of 
your position on it, preferably a response that you will tell 
us what his status is, an indication of that status. 

MS. LUBIN: Okay. 

MR. McGOUGH: Those are the only questions that I 
have. 

Shall we adjourn for lunch until 2:00 o'clock? 

[Whereupon, a luncheon recess was taken. ] 



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AFTERNOON SESSI_gN 
MR. McGOUGH: Back on the record. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q Mr. Conrad, did the NEPL staff have meetings? In 
particular, were there briefings for the fundraisers for 
NEPL, given by Mr. Channell? 
A I would say yes. 

Q At those briefings, did he discuss strategies for 
fundraising and approaches that might be made to contributors? 
A Yes. 

Q How often were those meeting held? 
A As needed. Frequently. 

Q Were they once a month, more frequently, less 
frequently than that? 

A It is whatever the occasion arose. I never kept 
track of it. 

Q Did you ever hear Mr. Channell refer to the 
teurgeted contributors as "political crazies"? 
A Not that I recall. 

Q Were these fundraiser meetings ever recorded? 
A Occasionally. 
Q Were they ever transcribed? 
A They might have been. I don't remember. 
MR. McGOUGH: Let me have this^ 
exhibit; it is two pages. 




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(The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Conrad Deposition Exhibit 12.) 
BY MR. MCGOUGH: 
Q Mr. Conrad, take a look at Exhibit 12, which is a 
two-page exhibit, entitled "Fund Raisers Meeting-May 23, 1986. 
A Do I need to read the whole thing? 
Q Well, my question to you is going to be, have you 
ever seen it before? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q All right. Then you may have to read the whole 
thing. What I want to ask you, really, is whether you 
attended a meeting at which these statements were made? 

A Okay. We might go off the record while I read it. 
[Briefly off the record) 
MR. McGOUGH: Back on the record. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q We are referring to Exhibit 12, with the control 
nuabers A0036710 and A0036711. Have you ever seen this 
document before? 

A I don't recall whether I have seen it or not. 
Q Having reviewed it while we were off the record, do 
you recall being in a meeting where this pitch or discussion, 
presentation, was made? 

A I believe I do recall *L*"^ii*'-'mfi.W^il'"'^'"' which 



lo recall *'*'° li^L'UiJLW^iI" 



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this was discussed. 

Q Could you tell me what that situation was? 

A Well, we were at a restaurant, and Spitz and all the 
fundraisers and myself were there, and this was the discuss- 
ion. I don't know who made the transcript. 

Q Do you know who recorded it? 

A I can't recall. 

Q Could it have been you? I mean you recorded the 
Ramsey dinner. Might you have recorded it? 

A It is possible. I just don't remember, at the 
moment, who did. 

Q Do you know why a transcript or why a recording was 
made? 

A Oh, just for instructional purposes. In other 
words, so that everybody didn't have to take notes. 

Q As best you can recall, is this an accurate 
transcript of the presentation that was made at the meeting? 

A Yes. 

Q By whom was the presentation made? 

A Well, that represents several people discussing. 
It was kind of a round-table discussion, it is not identified 
who. 

Q Who the individual speakers? 

A Yes. 

Q Was Mr. Channell one of the speakers? 



Ihanneli one or the soeakt 



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A Yes. 

Q Were you one of the speakers? 
A Well, it is possible. I don't remember. 
Q Refer, if you will, to the second page near the 
bottom, where we have the third or fourth sentence in the 
last paragraph, "But the impact of saying to someone like 
Harry Lucas, Barbara Newington or Ellen Garwood or Mel 
Salwasser, or Salvatori, or innumerable political crazies, is 
that we are going to give you an opportunity to give $30,000 
tax deductible political contribution and we want to tell you 
how to do it . " 

MS. LUBIN: May I interrupt at this point. 

MR. McGOUGH: Sure. 

MS. LUBIN: I would like to defer this line of 
questioning, pursuant to our agreement. I let you go to this 
point to identify the docviment and the circumstances under 
which it was issued. I have read the document. It does not 
pertain in any way to Nicaragua, that I have seen. 

MR. McGOUGH: It certainly pertains to some of the 
contributors to Nicaragua. 

MS. LUBIN: I understand. They also contributed to 
other progreuns . I am not suggesting that we may ultimately 
refuse to answer the question, but pursuant to our earlier 
agreement I would like to move it 




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UNCLASSIFIED 



BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q Let me finish my question, and that is, do you know 
who made that statement? 
A No. 

MR. McGOUGH: I don't have any further questions. 
I will defer to Mr. Oliver. 

MS. LUBIN: Spencer, would you just give me your 
formal title. 

MR. OLIVER: My name is Spencer Oliver. I am the 
Chief Counsel to the House Foreign Affairs Committee and a 
member of the Associate Staff to the House Select 
Investigative Committee. 

MS. LUBIN: Thank you. 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Conrad, it has been a couple of weeks since we 
started this deposition. I would like, if I could, to go 
back just a little bit to the beginning of your association 
with the Channell organizations to put us back in the 
context. Then what I want to do is to go through some of 
these documents, where I have put marks in the book, to follow 
up on some of the questions that Mr. Fryman asked. I will try 
to be as brief as possible. 

You came to work on a full time basis for Mr. 

iiMoi liooicicn 



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Channell in January or February of 1985 as a consultant; is 
that correct? 

A No. 

Q When did you begin to work full time for Mr. 
Channell? I know you were a full time consultant for a 
number of months. 

A March 6th. 

Q March 6th. And that was to primarily work on the 
Nicaraguan Refugee Fund dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q What exactly did you do, in your full time capacity, 
between March 6th and the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund dinner in 
that period of time? I guess it was about six weeks or 
something. 

A Do you want to be more specific? 

Q Well, you were paid, I think you said, $5,000 a 
month or $1,500 a day. I guess the $1,500 a day was in your 
previous association as a consultant in 1983 when you did 
about a week of consulting. 

A Yes. 

Q You came back to Washington, at his request, in 
March of 1985 to work on this dinner. 

A Yes. 

Q But my question is, what did you do on that dinner? 
I mean what was your responsibility during that period of 



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time, between March 6th and the dinner that you were brought 
back to work on? 

A Well, I don't know exactly how to answer the 
question. But I was a consultant to Miner and Frazier, and I 
was a consultant to the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund and I was a 
consultant to the Channell organizations. 

Q You were compensated by all three? 

A Yes. 

Q How was that compensation divided? 

A Rather arbitrarily. 

Q who decided? Did you bill each one of them? 

A No. Spitz just gave me some money — I don't 
remember how much, I would have to look and see. 

Q Cash? 

A A check. Miner and Frazier gave me some money, but 
it was at Spitz' request, and Nicaraguan Refugee Fund decided 
to hire me separately, and we had an agreement which covered 
that. 

Q What did you do for the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund 
that decided to hire you, as distinguished from what you did 
for Spitz Channell and for Miner and Frazier? 

A Well, it was all very similar. Basically, -- I 
don't know how you would call it — making sure that all the 
phone calls got made and follow-up calls were made, and that 
the money got in when it was supposed to get in, give people 



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advice who were talking on the telephone to people, make sure 
the letters got out. Just general coordination. 

Q Was your office in one particular place? 

A It was mostly at Miner and Frazier. 

Q Is that where the people were making phone calls 
from? Were there phone banks? 

A There were several places where they were making 
phone calls. 

Q Did you supervise these phone callers, sort of 
manage this operation? 

A In a way. I mean not in a sense of standing over 
them immediately to find if each one was on the phone. I 
mean not minute by minute. 

Q I see. But were you sort of the manager of the 
fundraising activities of these three groups? 

A Well, you could describe it that way. I don't know 
how else to describe it. I didn't have an official title. 

Q I understand. At the end of the day or at the end 
ot^ th« week, or periodically, did you evaluate the work of 
these fundraisers? 

A Oh, sure. I was evaluating it all the time. 

Q Did they give you daily reports, or weekly reports? 

A Daily reports. 

Q Daily reports. Those daily reports consisted of 



what? 



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A You mean what form? 

Q Yes. Was it written? 

A I think of it was written and some of it was verbal. 

Q Verbal. So you would then work with them to 
develop their pitch and the way they interacted with the 
people they were talking to on the phone? 

A Yes. 

Q Because you were the pro, you were the professional 
who was in there to make sure this was done right? 

A That is right. 

Q Then after this Nicaraguan Refugee Fund dinner was 
over, what then was your relationship with these three 
organizations? 

A Well, it ended with Miner and Frazier, and it ended 
with the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund, and it continued with the 
Channell organizations. 

Q As a full time consultant? 

A Yes. 

Q That continued for another three or four months 
before you became a full time employee, or five months, to 
the Fall, I think, of 1985? 

A Well, it was never clear. I mean there isn't a 
point at which I can say I became a full time employee. 

Q After the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund dinner was over 
and the money had l^^^fi ai^^se^ ^ruL |.h0| atiADe calling and 



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solicitation was over, what did you do then for Mr. Channell? 
Now this project is over, what did you do next? 

A Well, the best way I know how to explain it is that 
I was asked to stay on to help coordinate activities, to help 
in the Channell projects, whatever they happened to be. 

Q I think you testified earlier that at some point 
you became the Executive Director of all the Channell 
organizations . 

A Yes . 

Q And you said that you were responsible for the 
administration of these organizations. 

A Yes. 

Q When you say, "the administration, " what did that 
include? What was your job? You described your job earlier 
as the "Number Two Man" in all of his organizations. As an 
administrator and a pro, as a fundraiser, what was your daily 
activity like, your responsibilities? 

A Well, I was basically in charge of seeing that all 
of the program activities that we had started were completed, 
which includes staffing and supervising of personnel, setting 
up systems and so on. 

Q So the to-do lists that we have gone over during 
this deposition were basically your responsibilities to manage 
and to execute? 

A Yes. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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Q So if something went on your list as "to do, " it 
would be something that you would have the responsibility to 
follow through on, or to ask somebody else to follow through 
on; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q How did things get on your to-do lists? 

A Spitz would tell me. On the odd occasion, I might 
put something on myself, but very seldom. 

Q And then you would remind Spitz, or you would then 
say to one of the other staff people, "Have you done this 
yet?" or "Are you doing this?" or "Do you need any help on 
this?" or whatever the case might be? 

A Yes. Well, in general, we had too much to do, far 
too much to do, ten times as much to do as any human being 
could possibly do, and that is why we kept a to-do list. It 
was to remind us, when we had the odd spare moment, that we 
could begin working on this or that . 

Q Did everybody report through you to Spitz? 

A Well, that is how it was supposed to work. 

Q But it did not work that way? 

A Right. 

Q Why didn't it work that way? 

A Because Spitz would often go directly to the person. 

Q But you did have some management responsibility for 



all of the employees? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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A Yes. 

Q Including the bookkeepers and the accountants? 

A Yes. 

Q So you had a general familiarity with all aspects 
of Spitz Channell's operations? 

A Yes. 

Q And you had a responsibility for seeing to it that 
all these operations went smoothly? 

A Yes. 

Q All these operations were housed in one office? 

A Yes. 

Q And there were overlapping boards of directors for 
each of these corporations? 

A Yes. 

Q Did the same people sign checks for each one of 
these organizations? Who had check-signing authority? 

A Well, it depends on which time you are talking 
about. 

Q Well, let's say in November of 1985. 

A Well, there is some overlap, and I would have to 
look at which signature cards were enforced then as to who 
was able to sign on which accounts to be able to answer your 
question. Because I mean there are 11 organizations, and it 
changed all the time and I can't keep all that in my head. 

Q You know, I have_ ip_0]^^^%t^|i^f^ my list. Are 



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ONCUSSIFIED 



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you counting Grow Washington as one of those eleven? 

A Yes. 

Q That answers my question because I didn't have them 
on my list. My understanding is no money ever actually went 
into the Grow Washington account; is that correct? 

A I think there was $100. 

Q But it was never really an active account? 

A No, it wasn't. But my point is that there are a 
lot of organizations and there is a lot of time period that 
we are covering, and I can't keep this all straight. 

Q Sure. Did Spitz Channell have check-signing 
authority for all of the accounts? 

A Most of the time. 

Q Did you have check-signing authority for all of the 
accounts? 

A No. 

Q Which accounts did you not have check-signing 
authority for? 

A I would have to look. 

Q If I natine them, will you know whether you had it? 

A No. I have to look at a list. I mean I would go 
to the accountant -- I was frequently asking the accountants, 
"Am I authorized to sign on this account?" They were the 
ones that told me. 

Q But the accountants reporteA.t;^ jipu? 



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A Yes. 

Q And you were the management person? 

A Yes. 

Q And they asked you which accounts you signed on? 

A No, no. I would ask them which accounts I signed 
on. Spitz would say, "Please have a check written to so and 
so on this account," and he might tell them in Accounting, 
without telling me. So then they would come to me and 
present a check for me to sign, and I would question them, 
often, "Am I authorized to sign on this account?" "Who 
authorized the check to be drawn?" "Spitz." "Fine." I sign 
the check. 

Q This was a fairly small group of people. Who else 
had check-signing authority, besides you and Spitz, on any 
account, of the group of people that were there? 

A Well, Cliff Smith. I don't remember who else. 

Q Is it possible it was just Cliff Smith, you and 
Spitz Channel 1? 

A It is possible. 

Q It was the senior members of the group? 

A Yes, but it changed over time. You are asking me 
specifics when all you have to do is go to the Accounting 
Department and they can tell you exactly. I don't know. 

Q After you became the Executive Director of all 
Spitz Channell's organizations, did ygy^ontinue to supervise 



organizations ' ^i^YWmi'^ 



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)07 C Sam. N E 2 5 

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the fundraisers in the same way that you had for the 
Nicaraguan Refugee Fund, where you are still the professional 
fundraiser and you still sort of oversee what they do, 
evaluate their work, give them suggestions, that sort of 
thing? 

A From time to time, yes. 

Q Was that your responsibility to sort of see to it 
that their work was going along? 

A Well, I was not the only one who had that 
responsibility. 

Q Who else had that responsibility? 

A Spitz Channell. 

Q You and Spitz Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q So the fundraisers reported either to both of you, 
or one of you, and if they had a problem they came to one of 
you? 

A Yes. 

Q And you sort of gave them direction in terms of 
what they were going to raise money for this week and what 
they were going to raise money for next week? 

A Well, in that particular instance, it wouldn't be 
me; it would be Spitz. 

Q So Spitz would decide, "This week we are going to 

raise money for X, and this is the pitch that I want you to 



. and tnis is the pitch t, 

iikim Aooincn 



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give, that I think will work"? 

A Yes. 

Q You would work that out, and then they would go 
back to their offices and they would get on the phone and 
start making that pitch to your list of donors? 

A Yes. 

Q Were most of the donors that you worked with, donors 
that you had developed over a period of time? 

A Me, personally? 

Q The Channell fundraising organization. 

A Well, yes, I guess. 

Q Did you make very many cold calls? 

A Oh, quite a number. 

Q How did you get those lists? 

A We must have at least, at least 100 different lists 
in our files. 

Q So you collected lists like any professional 
fundraising organization; if there is a good list and you 
know you can get ahold of it, you got it, you tried to figure 
out a pitch that would work on this list. And if you figured 
out a pitch, you gave your fundraisers that list, and they 
would go after it? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Spitz Channell 's organizations sort of 
specialize, once they located a donor, in developing that 

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>07 C Sum. N E 2 5 

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donor and increasing their giving -- not necessarily capacity, 
but the size of their donations? 
A Did I do what? 

Q Did they sort of specialize in the development of 
donors, from being small givers to big givers? 
A Yes. 

Q And keeping them involved with your organization? 
A Yes. 

Q It appears, from what we have seen, that that was 
really your specialty, was to find a donor who was a deep 
pocket and treat them very nicely and bring them along, and 
get them involved and do whatever you could to really make 
them want to give any time you asked. 

A This is the specialty of all professional fund- 
raisers, or should be. Let's put it that way. 

Q Certainly, in your case, it worked very well with a 
number of these donors . 

How did you go about doing that for Spitz? Let's 
take, for example, Barbara Newington. How would you develop 
her as a donor, to want to get her to give even more money? 
What would you do? What was your sort of technique? 

A I really don't know how to quite answer that, 
because it is not a theoretical construct. You deal with 
each case on its own merits and each individual, and it is a 
marrying between the individual and_jj;^£^use and the 



:he individual and the cau 



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UNCUSsm 



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organization, and the relationship that the individual 
fundraiser has with the individual contributor. So it is a 
combination of multiple factors. 

Q Earlier in this deposition, we looked at hand- 
written notes, at an evaluation of what was the most effective 
tool for your givers. And generally, -- I think there were 
several people evaluated, and they thought the most effective 
tool was Green, being the code name for Oliver North; is that 
correct . 

A Yes . They were wrong . 

Q They were wrong. What was the most effective tool? 

A Well, as it turned out, as I said previously, the 
most effective tool was, to generalize from Colonel North and 
Presidential meetings, was meeting in general. In other 
words, to bring people — to ask people to come to a meeting 
was far preferable to calling them on the phone and asking 
them for a contribution. 

Q Particularly, if that meeting could be in the White 
House? 

A Yes. However, there is substantive data, from other 
types of organizations, that it did not make a difference 
whether it was in the White House or not. That is the danger 
of looking at these statistics, is that -- that is all the 
data that we had to go on, and we dealt with such few people 
that it is very difficult to generalize 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



629 



Q You dealt with a small universe of givers, several 
of whom met with the President and several of whom attended 
meetings in the White House; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Other than the meetings in the White House and the 
meetings and dinners at the Hay Adeims , across the street, 
where else did meetings of these people take place in 
Washington? 

A I don't believe there were any other meetings. 

Q So the general pattern was a meeting in the White 
House, followed by a dinner at the Hay Adams across the 
street? 

A Yes . 

Q And this is what attracted these people, time and 
time again? 

A Well, the only point I am trying to make to you is 
that from the experience of other organizations, I know that 
it is not necessary to have only meetings in the White House, 
in order to get this same kind of results. Meetings, in 
general, for any organization, a hospital, a university, or 
whatever, is a very good technique for getting contributors 
to become involved with the organization. 

As a matter of fact, we discovered, through our 
analysis, that the meetings with Ronald Reagan weren't as 
productive as the meetings with Oliver NoiXh- So it is 



etings with Oliver North 

ilMPI AQQIEltn 



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important that you understand that — I mean even the 
fundraisers didn't understand this, that the meetings were 
the most important thing, not where they were or who was in 
charge of them. 

Q But I was just trying to establish that in this 
particular instance, for the Channell organizations, for 
these big givers, the meetings took place either in the White 
House or at the Hay Adams Hotel? 

A Yes . 

Q Barbara Newington, according to our records, or at 
least the records that I have, gave something like $3,800,000- 
plus dollars to the Channell organizations in 1985 and 1986. 
Does that figure generally strike you as being correct? 

A No. I think it is wrong, by a big amount. 

Q She gave more or less? 

A Less. But I don't know that for a fact. I would 
have to check the records. It doesn't strike me as correct. 

Q How much money do you think, in a general ball park 
figure, — I know you don't know specifically -- how much 
money do you think Barbara Newington gave? 

A Probably around a little below $2 million. 

Q In 1985 and 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q How much money do you think Ellen Garwood gave in 
1985 and 1986, approximately? 



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A I think more than that, like $2.5 million. I am 
not sure exactly. I would have to look. 

Q But these people, people like Newington and 
Garwood, were sort of your main contributors, that you 
developed over a period of time? 

A Yes. 

Q And as you developed these people, you looked for 
or noted a propensity or proclivity to give money to the 
cause of the Contras in Central America, a willingness to 
give to the point that you thought they could be approached 
to make direct contributions to the Contras for military 
equipment; is that correct? 

A Yes . 

Q Then when you decided to bring them to that stage 
of giving, usually the method involved was a one-on-one 
meeting with Ollie North or a one-on-two meeting with the 
giver and Spitz and Ollie North, a small meeting where this 
approach would be made; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Was it usually Spitz and Ollie North who would be 
present when this pitch was made? 

A Usually Ollie North — as a matter of fact, I think 
Ollie North was never present; only Spitz Channell and the 
contributor. 

Q But usually, that is when the pitch was made? 

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Usually, that took place after a meeting with Ollie North; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of the breadth of Mrs. Newington's 
contributions to the Chanuell organizations? 

A Well, dazzle me with figures. 

Q Well, she gave money to the National Endowment for 
the Preservation of Liberty; is that correct? 

A I believe so, yes. 

Q She gave money to the Western Goals Foundation; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q She gave money to the Western Goals Endowment; is 
that correct? 

A Yes . 

Q She gave money to Sentinel; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q She gave money to the ATAC Federal Election Fund; 
is that correct? 

A I would have to check. 

Q She gave money to the ATAC State Election Fund; is 
that correct? 

A I would have to check. 

Q She gave money to the American Conservative Trust 
State Election Fund; is that correct? 



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A I would have to check. 

Q She gave money to the American Conservative 
Foundation; is that correct? 

A I would have to check. 

Q Well, my indication is that she did, but you can 
check the figures. 

A Fine. I mean it doesn't surprise me. 
Q But the same thing was true, to a large extent, for 
the other big givers, Garwood, King, Hunt, Warm; they gave to 
more than one of the Channell entities; is that correct? 
A Yes. 

Q So you had developed these donors, and you could 
pretty much direct where you wanted their contributions to 
go; is that correct? 

MS. LUBIN: When you say "you," would you clarify? 
MR. OLIVER: I mean you could call them up and — 
MS. LUBIN: "You," Dan Conrad, would call them up? 
MR. OLIVER: "You, " a representative of the 
Channell organizations — 

MS. LUBIN: Are you speaking of Dan Conrad or are 
you speaking of the Channell organizations generally, or 
fundraisers? I am just trying to figure out what you are 
talking about. 

MR. OLIVER: A representative of the Channell 
organization. 



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THE WITNESS: Any representative? 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Who worked with them, could call them up and say, 
"We need money for X this week," and then next week they 
could call them up and say, "We need money for Y"? 

A Yes. 

Q Once they had reached that point of being a regular 
and repeat contributor. So was sort of an overlapping of not 
only the components of the organizations they gave to, but 
there was also an overlapping of your responsibilities and 
the responsibilities of the other Channell employees with all 
of the Channell organizations; is that correct/ 

A Yes. 

Q These meetings that were held at the white House 
were all arranged through XBC and/or David Fischer and Marty 
Artiano? 

A Or Oliver North. 

Q Or Oliver North. If you could go directly to 
Oliver North and set up one of these meetings, why were you 
paying so much money to Marty Artiano and David Fisher? 

A Well, it depends on which meetings you are talking 
about . 

Q Well, I am talking about White House meetings or 
briefings. If Oliver North could do it, a person who dealt 
directly with, had a friendly relationship with, why would 



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you pay somebody $480,000 to set up meetings at the White 
House that you could do yourself? 

A Well, that wasn't their only responsibility. 
Q What were their other responsibilities? 
A Who? 

Q David Fischer. 

A He arranged different meetings with all kinds of 
different people. 

Q For instance, who were some of the people he 
arranged meetings with? 

A X am blanking at the moment which ones, but I mean 
all you have to do is look on the to-do lists and there is a 
great listing of the number of different activities he was 
asked to participate in. Introductions and meetings were 
only a part of that. 

Q You testified earlier, I believe, that the Channell 
organizations, through IBC or directly, paid Artiano and 
Fischer $480,000; is that correct? 

A I don't recall the amount of money. 
Q It was a significant amount of money. It was a 
significant amount of money; is that correct? 
A Oh, yes. 

Q You don't remember any other meetings that David 
Fischer set up for you? 

A Not at the second. 



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Q You don't remember one? 

MS. LUBIN: We would be glad to look at calendars 
and phones and to-do lists, if you want us to go back through 
them. 

MR. OLIVER: The point is, my recollection of going 
through the to-do lists was that there were a lot of things 
on the to-do lists were David Fischer — there were sugges- 
tions that David Fischer set up a lot of meetings, but the 
meetings were never set up. 

MS. LUBIN: If this is important to you, we will be 
glad to do it again. 

MR. OLIVER: All right. We will go back to the 
calendars in a little bit, in a moment. 

THE WITNESS: I mean I just have to refresh my 
memory. I am sorry. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Well, let's go back. This is a good time to go 
back to some of the calendars, and I have some notes that 
maybe we can go through just briefly. If you will go back to 
the first outline, from the beginning to — 
A Exhibit 1? 
Q — 143. 
A Yes . 

Q On what is the Page 3 of the September 8, 1985, to- 
do list, there is a notation -- 



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A September 3, did you say? 

Q September 8, Page 3. What I am going to do is I am 
going through lists — I made some notations, just some 
marks, as we went through these during Mr. Fryman's quest- 
ioning, just some loose ends that I would like to tie 
together, if we could. So we will be going through them 
seriatim , but skipping around. 

A Fine. 

Q Two-thirds of the way down the page, there is a 
notation, "0-4," where it says, "Frank: who should we 
invite?" and then the letter "A." It says, "Strategic 
Studies Conference attendees." Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A Well, I don't remember specifically, but it was a 
Strategic Studies Conference. I don't know where it was 
held; I never went to it, didn't know anything about it. But 
whoever was there, we were asking the question of Frank 
Gomez, should they be invited to our Agenda- for-Geneva 
Conference. 

Q This Strategic Studies Conference did take place 
somewhere? 

A I guess. I don't even know where I got the name. 

Q But Frank, presumably, knew something about the 
Strategic Studies Conference? 




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A Yes, or, otherwise, he could find out about it. 

Q Do you know whether or not this Strategic Studies 
Conference tock place in Europe? 

A I have no idea . 

Q Did you ever get a list of the attendees? 

A No. 

(Pause. ) 

Q On Page 14 of the October 12th, 1985, 11:41 to-do 
list, "11:41" is the time, I assume. 

A Yes, it is. 

Q Because sometimes you have the same day and a 
different time. 

A Yes. 

Q There is some handwriting on the right-hand side of 
that page which says, "Five Senate races in January," and 
then "January 20th meeting, Nic — "I assume that is 
Nicaraguan/Friends of Freedom. Anniversary of sixth year in 
office - Angela, copies of Meese letter." 

What do those notations refer to? 

A Different matters. 

Q They are not related to each other? 

A No. 

Q Well, on the "January 20th meeting of Nicaraguan/ 
Friends of Freedom," what does that refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 



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We started a project called Friends of Freedom, 
which never had a real distinct purpose; and we wanted to 
have a meeting on January 20th, which is the anniversary of 
President Reagan's sixth year in office. 

Q Did you have it? 

A No. 

Q What does the "Angela, copies of Meese letter, " just 
below that, refer to? 

A Well, Ed Meese sent us a letter, thanking us for 
something, I have forgot what, and we wanted to get copies of 
it. I don't remember why we wanted them. 

Q Did you get copies of the letter? 

A I assume so. 

Q What did you do with them? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Did you use it to raise funds? Did you use it to 
show to your donors or contributors? 

A I don't recall. 

Q But you don't know why you needed copies of it? 

A No. 

Q He had written you a letter? 

A Yes . 

Q Why did you need to call Angela to get — Angela 
was your secretary, is that right? Who is ^Ang^l^ 

A Angela is general factotum. 



Jho is Angela? _ .^.^^ 

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Q She was the one you were telling to make copies of 
the Meese letter; basically, that is what this was a note to 
do? 

A Yes. 

Q But you can't remember why? 

A Right. At Spitz' request. 

Q On the October 14th to-do list, on Page 12 — 

A Which version? 

Q 1555. 

MR. McGOUGH: As opposed to 1559? 

MR. OLIVER: Wait a minute. It may be 1559. Yes, 
1559, Page 12. 

THE WITNESS: All right. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q There is some handwriting on that page; is that 
your handwriting? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

Yes . Yes . 
Q In the middle of the page there is half a box, with 
an arrow drawn to "November 1st, to Williamsburg," a notation 
on the lower left-hand side of the page. Do you see that? 
A Yes. 
Q And does it say "Nixon" there? 



What does that refer to? 



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A Hold the fort a minute, please. 
(Witness peruses documents.) 

Okay. We wanted to have a series of — I don't 
know what you call them -- briefings on international topics 
by President Nixon, and we talked with different people. I 
am sorry. This is notes of a conversation from Spitz 
Channell, where he said we should ask Edie Frazier and Tom 
Miner to help us, and we would pay them for that, and how 
much we would give to Nixon, and the rest. These would be 
fundraising events, small fundraising events around the 
country, focusing on international policy issues. 

Q Does the reference to Barbara Newington, in the 
circle just to the right of that, have any relation to that? 

A Yes. We wanted to hold the first fidin her home. 
She wanted dinner for six in November. 

Q Dinner for six? 

A Yes. 

Q You were going to give $10,000 to Edie and Tom, and 
$20,000 to Nixon, out of a dinner for six? 

A Yes. 

Q How much did you expect to raise in this dinner for 



six? 



A Oh, S100,000, probably. 

Q What were you going to charge the donors? 

A A lot of money. 



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Q To have dinner with Nixon? 

A Well, he would speak at the dinner; that is not 
what they are paying him for. They are paying to participate 
in a program. 

Q Just below that square is a reference to "Roger 
Stone: Roy Cohn, " and then a figure which looks like it 
represents $1 million; is that correct? 

A That is right. 

Q Could you tell us what that reference is to? 

A Spitz asked me to contact Roger Stone about putting 
us in touch with Roy Cohn so that we could ask him for a 
million dollar contribution. 

Q Who was Roy Cohn? Was this Roy Cohn. 

A Roy Cohn. 

Q Who was Roy Cohn? 

A Isn't this the — C-0-H-E-N, isn't that how you 
spell his name? Roy Cohn, the attorney who died. 

Q Hell, C-O-H-N is the way I believe it was spelled. 

A Fine . 

Q Did you ever get in touch with Roger Stone? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever solicit any funds from Roy Cohn? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A One of the 4 00 things we neve£_,aflt— flone . 



One of the 4 00 things we_neve 



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Q Did you ever try to call Roger Stone? 

A I think maybe I did, a couple of times. 

Q And he didn't return your calls? 

A Right. 

Q Turning to the next page; it starts at the top of 
the page, "October 17th, Washington meeting," and then it 
looks as though this is a — for the next three pages, four 
pages, actually — five pages, I am sorry. 



A 
Q 

correct? 
A 
Q 

meeting? 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 



Six pages, seven pages, eight pages. Eight pages, 
So it runs from Page 1 through Page 8; is that 

It was an important program. 

This all relates to the October 17th Washington 



That is correct. 

This meeting did take place? 

It did. 

Did take place, generally, as it is planned here in 
this eight-page — 

MS. LUBIN: What pages. 

MR. OLIVER: Let me, if I may, give you the numbers 
of the pages so they can be put in the record. They are 
Control Number 20889, 20890, 20891, 20892, 20893, 20894, 



20895, and 20896, 



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BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q My question was, did the meeting come off pretty 
much as this schedule indicates it came off? 

A I will have to read it. 
(Pause. ) 

Q The meeting did take place on October 17th; is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And the briefing did take place in the Indian 
Treaty Room? 

A I don't remember if it took place exactly in that 
room. 

Q But it did take place in the White House? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Linda Chavez' deputy introduce all the special 
invited guests? 

A I think so. I am confusing all the different 
briefings . 

Q Did Linda Chavez ever appear at any of your 
briefings? 

A The one in the White House, in the Roosevelt Room. 

Q Who contacted Linda Chavez on your behalf? 

A I have no idea . 

Q Did you ask anyone to contact Linda^ ^gyez ? 

A I don't recall. 




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Q Did you ask anyone to contact Pat Buchanan? 
A Quite possibly. 

Q Did you ever contact Pat Buchanan? Did he ever 
attend or participate in any of your activities? 
A I can't remember. 

Q Linda Chavez, you remember participating in the one 
in the White House. 
A Yes. 

That took place in January of 1986? 

Yes. 

what did she do at that meeting in January of 1986? 

Announced that she was leaving to run for the 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 

Senate 
Q 
A 

yes. 

Q 
A 
Q 

there . 
A 

Q 
A 
Q 



Is that all she did? 

"Hello. I'm leaving." I mean that is about it. 

This was a Linda Chavez fundraiser, was it? 

No. 

Surely, there was some other purpose for her to be 

"Welcome. I'm leaving." 

She welcomed everyone? 

Yes. 

The rest of her remarks didn't make a great 



impression on you? 



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A Truly. 

Q Then after the event at the White House, the dinner 
at the Hay Adams took place? 

A Yes. 

Q It indicates, there on Page 3, "to invite Don Regan 
or Bud McFarlane to stop by during cocktails." Did they stop 
by? 

A No. 

Q Did anyone from the White House stop by during 
cocktails? 

A No. Well, not that I recall. There might have 
been somebody, but I don't remember who. 

Q Did anyone from the White House come to the dinner? 

A As I say, I get them confused. I can't remember 
this particular one. 

Q Did anyone from the White House ever attend any of 
the dinners at the Hay Adams? 

A I think Elliott Abrams did, but he is not at the 
White House, of course. 

Q But he did attend one of the dinners at the Hay 
Adams? 

A I think Ollie North came to one of the dinners. I 
don't remember whether he ate. Fawn Hall came one time. 

Q At this particular dinner, did a Mr. Baldizon 
speak, a Nicaraguan defector? 



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I don't remember. I don't think so. 

Was Mr. Calero there? 

Yes. 

Was Mr. Rubello there? 

No. 

Mr. Calero spoke, I assume? 

Yes. 

If you would turn to October 19th, 1985, 10:51, 



A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q 
Page 1 . 

A Yes. 

Q At the top, Roman Numeral I there is "Public 
Diplomacy Program, " and in it Number A is "Contact ad agency 
re this project," and then you list "Ogleby and Mather, Gray 
and Company, Wagner and Baroody, and a volunteer, Jim 
McAvoy, " and then "Contact three new firms.' 

Could you tell me what that was about, that Section 
A there? 

A We wanted to start a Public Diplomacy Program for 
Nicaragua, and the way we did it was by competitive bidding, 
and we wanted several firms to participate in that. I think 
eventually something like 10 or 11 firms did actually submit 
bids, or at least got talked with. I think the number of 
actual people who submitted bids was like six, or something. 

Q Did you hire any of these firms? 

A Yes. 



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Q Which one? 

A We hired a combination of International Business 
Communications and Edelman and Company, I guess it is. 
Daniel J. Edelman, that is what it is, that is the name of 
the firm. 

Q On the margins of that page there is quite a bit of 
handwriting; is that your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q You have, at the top, it says, "Curt Herge: what 
is law re taking contributors away?" What does that refer to? 

A That means taking contributor names away. Who owns 
the names? When an organization has contributors, who 
legally owns the names? 

Q On the right-hand side of that page, there is a box 
that says, "Goodman: 30 minutes: getting ready for the 
battles to come." What does that refer to? 

A Some idea for advertising. 

Q Then it says, "Spots after the first of the year." 
what does that refer to? 

A That from the same footage, we would take spots, we 
would take 30-second spots. 

Q This relates to the Public Diplomacy Program for 
Nicaragua on this page? 

A Yes. And the Fred Sacher film project that is on 
there. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q Then below that, you have several other notations 
that read, "One, Two, Three." Number One says, "Who are 
registered as foreign agents for the USSR?" What does that 
refer to? 

A We wanted to use, in an ad -- we wanted to find out 
who were the registered agents of the USSR in the United 
States so we could add up how much all their contracts were 
worth, so we could say, in an ad, how much the Soviets were 
spending to influence American opinion. 

Q Did you do that? 

A We tried; it was very difficult. 

Q Why was it difficult? 

A They have a lot of contracts, and it is not 
specifically -- somebody needs to straighten that office. 

Q Which office? 

A It is not uniform how they report things, so you 
can't just go there an get a bottom-line number, and people 
are free to interpret the law as they wish. 

Q You mean the Foreign Agents Registration Act that 
is administered by the Department of Justice? 

A Yes. 

Q You sent someone to that office to go through these? 

A Yes. 

Q And you found it so disorganized that you couldn't 
really get the information that you needed? 



tion tnat you needed? 

liKim Aooincn 



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A That is right. 

Q Number Two says, "Goodman free to direct next 
film. " What does that refer to? 

A Well, he had already done one film for us, and we 
wanted to do another one, and we wanted to find out much he 
was going to charge for that. 

Q On aid to Nicaragua? 

A Well, on the Freedom Fighters. 

Q Then the next notation, Number Three, says, 
"Straighten out IBC fees for October/November." What does 
that refer to? 

A Some accounting matter, but I don't know what. 

Q You don't remember. Down next to the bottom, next- 
to-the-last notation on the right side of the page, it says, 
"Spitz, first loan: 177 K." Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Underneath it is a figure that says, "1800 SF." Is 
that "Swiss francs"? 

A Square feet. 

Q Square feet. Thank you. 

I assume that is a reference to his residence; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q It is not your office space. 

A The media-reported $300, 000 penthouse. 

IIMPI 



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Q On the next page, on the upper right-hand side, 
there are more notes which appear to be your handwriting; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q On the fourth line, below the name "Jim McAvoy, " 
appears the name "Pyramid Video." Could you tell me what 
that refers to? 

A It is a company that send out B-roll footage by 
satellite. 

Q Sends out what kind of footage? 

A B-roll. You see the reference, just below the name 
it says "five to seven minutes of B-roll," are the words 
there. 

Q What is "B-roll footage?" 

A It is a technical term in advertising. I don't 
know what it stand for, but it means a section of video tape 
that is sent out as a news release, a video news release, 
over the air. 

Q Did you contract with Mr*. McAvoy to do this? 

A No. 

Q Did Kr. Goodman make this film for you in 1986? 

A I don't think so. I can't recall. He made a lot 
of things for us, but I don't think he made this. 

Q Were all the things that he made for you related to 
Central America or Nicaragua? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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A No. 

Q What did he do besides Central America and 
Nicaragua? 

A Well, I would have to look at the — 

Q You don't remember, generally, what he did? 

A No. 

Q But the film he had done for you previously was 
about Freedom Fighters in Central America; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he do any other films or spots for you about 
Central America or Freedom Fighters in 1986? 

A Well, I don't recall. He probably did 20 or 30 
different projects for us, and you asked me specifically a 
time period of 1986; I would have to go back to the records 
and check. 

Q I would like for you to turn to October 26th, 1985, 
12:27, Page 10. 

A Yes. 

Q We talked earlier about this page, in earlier 
testimony, I believe, where you indicated that the January 
1986 project was put on this to-do list at the direction of 
Spitz Channell; is that correct? 

A Yes . 



Now, did you 
No. 



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do project? 



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Q Did you carry out any of it? 

A No. 

Q You did not contribute to any Senate races in 1986? 

A I don't recall. 

Q I would like for you to turn to October 26, 1985, 
12:27 p.m., Page 14. In the middle of the page, down below 
"D. Mailing list changes," it says, "Number 2, ASAP, Where is 

the Tom Evans list?" My question is, what is the "Tom Evans 
list?" 

A A list of six or eight names that Tom Evans gave us. 

Q These were potential donors? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you remember any of the names on the list? 

A Daniel Terra. 

Q Any others? 

A No. 

Q Did Daniel Terra contribute? 

A No. 

Q Was he approached? 

A I don ' t know . 

Q I would like you to turn to December 9th, 1985, 



11:02, Page 4. Actually, Page 3. 

A December 9th, 11:02, Page 3. 

Q Correct. At the bottom of the page you have a 
Section D called "Other Ideas." You still have on your to-do 



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list the USSR foreign agents, which we have discussed. 

A Yes. 

Q Number 4 is "Hire a lobbying firm. " Do you see that 
there? 

A 



Yes. 

Did you hire a lobbying firm at that time? 

No. 

Did you ever hire a lobbying firm? 

Well, I suppose. 

Who was the lobbying firm you hired? 

Dan Kigeh e iidahl ; also — 



Bruce Cameron? 

Bruce Cameron. 

Number 5 on the list, turning to the next page, 
says, "WH Congressional Relations Office." I assume that 
means "White House Congressional Relations Office? 
A Yes. 

Q "Re next aid bill for the Contras." Number 1 says, 
"What can we do to help?" Number 2 says, "Ask Green," and 
Number 3 says, "Ask McFarlane." And- beside that, in what I 
believe is your handwriting, says, "Now very important." Is 



that your handwriting? 
A Yes. 
Q Could you tell me what that Number 5 refers to? 



UNCIASSIHED 



T was supposed to contact the White House 



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Congressional Relations Office and ask what can we do to help 
on the next aid bill for the Contras . 

Q Did you contact them? 

A No. 

Q Did you contact Green about it? 

A No. 

Q Did you contact Mr. McFarlane about it? 

A No. 

Q Did you contact anyone about it? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A One of the 500 things we didn't get done. 

Q The notation "Now very important" might have 
indicated that you might have given it some priority, but you 
never did? 

A That was a direction from Spitz, but he was 
perpetually saying that everything was critical. 

Q At the bottom of that page, you have "For a trip to 
take, trips takes." It says, "A. Schedule trip to Texas," 
and the Number 1 name is Mrs. Pew. 
Did you go to Texas? 

A No. 

Q Did you talk to Mrs . Pew? 

A I think one of the fundraisers did, yes. 

Q Did she contril 



'-" UNCLASSIFIED 



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A I can't recall. I would have to check the records. 

Q Did any of the other names on that list from Texas 
contribute? 

A I am not sure. Again, I would have to check. 

Q Below that, it says "Schedule trip to Columbus, 
Georgia." Did any of those names that are listed below there 
contribute? 

A I would have to check again. I am not certain. 

Q C is "Schedule a trip to California," and the first 
name on that list is Melvin Salwasser; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he contribute? 

A Yes. 

Q Did any of the other names on that list contribute? 

A I would have to check. 

Q Did you take a trip to California? 

A Well, we did take a trip to California, but I don't 
know when exactly it was. I mean I don't know whether it is 
in connection with this note, for example. 

Q How much money did Melvin Salwasser eventually 
contribute to Channell operations? 

A I would have to check. 

Q Was it a substantial amount? 

A Well, it depends on whose standards you are using. 
He was a small contributor. 



UNCUSSIHEO 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q Did he contribute several times? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you call him to contribute on various occasions? 

A I didn't, never. 

Q Did one of your fundraisers? 

A Yes. 

MS. LUBIN: Would this be a good time to break? 
MR. OLIVER: Would you like to take a break? We 
will take a 5-minute break. Off the record. 

[Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.] 
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Conrad, we were discussing, I believe, the to- 
do list of December 9th, 1985, which refers to a number of 
trips to take: to Texas; Columbus, Georgia; California and 
Florida. 

You indicated that there was a trip to California 
at some point, or there was not a trip? 
A Yes , there was . 
Q When did that trip take place? 
A I would have to consult the records. 
Q This list of people in these various places, I take 



it, are prospective donors; is that correct? 
A Yes. 
Q How did you get the names of these prospective 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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donors? 



UNCLASSIRED 



658 



A Just general knowledge. I mean I couldn't possibly 
tell you the source of them. 

Q Would your telephone fundraisers, in their 
telephone calls, have turned up these names? 

A Some . 

Q Some of them. Do you recognize, besides Mr. 
Salmasser, any names on that list who were actually contrib- 
utors at some later point? 

A In California? 

Q In California. 

A Well, I would have to double-check. Maybe Bob 
Ferguson, and I think Brandenberger didn't give. I don't 
remember about Adams. I would have to double-check. 

Q Was the general purpose of these trips to sort of 
have direct contract with these potential contributors whose 
names you had received, either through telephone solicitations 
or been given to you by somebody else? 

A Yes. 

Q Before you took a trip to see somebody, you had a 
general idea that they were interested in your program; is 



UNCLASSIFIED 



that correct? 

A Oh, absolutely. 

Q Would you turn to the handwritten notes in the 
first book, the one that is not quite as thick as the second 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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one. Document Number A, 0037766. It is about three-quarters 
of the way through. 

A Let me see what it looks like. 

Q It is the Salwasser one. 

A All right. Thank you. Yes. 

Q Whose handwriting is on that page? 

A 37766? 

Q 37766, that is right. 

A .airis Littledale. 

Q Is this a report of a phone message? Is this a 
typical kind of a report -- not the contents of it, but the 
form of it, is this the kind of a report that one of your 
telephone solicitors would give to you and to Spitz after 
they had made contact with someone? 

A No. 

Q What would they generally do? 

A This would keep this on file for their own 
information. 

Q They would keep this on file for their own infor- 
mation. But this is generally the kind of thing that they 
would put in their file, notes that they would take from the 
conversation? 

A Yes. 

Q Would you read this note regarding Mr. Melvin 
Salwasser. 



UNCLASSIRED 



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MS. LUBIN: Do you want him to start at any 
particular page. 

MR. OLIVER: Or perhaps we should just put it in 
the record, and I will refer to it. If we could put this 
document, Number 37766 into the record at this point, I will 
refer to parts of it. 

MR. FRYMAN: It is already a part of it. It is a 
deposition exhibit. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Have you ever seen this document before? 
A No. 

Q Did you ever discuss the contents of this document 
with — who did you say had written this document? 

K 

A ppris Littledale. 
Q — pftris Littledale? 
A Not that I recall. 

Q Does the content of this note, what this fellow was 
saying, did anything in there disturb you in any way? Were 
you concerned about that? 

A I have not read it . 

Q Take just a minute and read it. 

MR. OLIVER: We will go off the record for just a 
moment to give Mr . Conrad an opportunity to read this . 
[Briefly off the record. ] 
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 



ONCLASSIFIFI) 



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BY MR- OLIVER: 
Q Does anything in that note by your fundraiser 
disturb you? 

A Well, I don't know what you mean by "disturb." 

Q On the third line, beginning the end of fourth line 
from the bottom, it says, referring to Mr. Salwasser, I 
assume, "wanted to kill a lib. congressman." Does that 
bother you? 

A If that bothered me, there is a great deal else in 
this that would have bothered me, but did not. 

Q But after this man was contacted on August 5th, 
1985, you wanted to put him at the top -- you put him at the 
top of your list for a scheduled trip to California later on 
in 1985; is that correct? 

A That did not indicate priority. 

Q But you did schedule him as one of five people that 
you wanted to schedule a trip in California to see? 

A Yes. 

Q Would you turn to Page — 

MS. LUBIN: May I, just for the record, are you 
aware of Mr. Salwasser killing any liberal congressmen? 



THE WITNESS: No. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Would you turn to Page A037792, which is about four 



UNCLASSIFIED 



or five pages further in this document 



no, 91, I am sorry. 



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Whose handwriting is that? 

A 37791? 

Q Yes . 

A ^^J-s Littledale. 

Q The name on there is Mr. Carl Weller; is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q He is also one of the people who is on this list of 
people to see on one of these trips; is that correct, on 
stage? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ever see Mr. Weller? 

A No. 

Q Did he ever become a contributor? 

A I don't recall. I have to check. 

Q Would you turn to the next page. Document Number 
37792? 

A Yes. 

Q The contributor on that page, according to this, 
said, "Yes to 4:16 briefing, IK." Does that mean he donated 
$1,000? 

A I don't know. You would have to ask rfiris 
Littledale. 

Q Well, there are four notes on there, April 25th, 
June 16th, August 26th, October 27th, October 30th and 



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December 12th, all which have notations besides them, money 
amounts. Would it indicate to you, if you looked at this as 
a note from one of your fundraisers, this gentleman had 
donated money? 

A Well, this is a note f rom CKris Littledale to 
himself, so I don't know what his note means. You would have 
to ask him the question. 

Q Would you turn back to Document A, 0036003, which 
is three-quarters of the way through the book, back in the 
other direction. It starts with "Ollie solicitation." It is 
a handwritten note. 

A I can't find it. May I look at your copy? 

Q Yes. 

A Yes. I have it. 

Q You have indicated in your earlier testimony that 
that was Cliff Smith's handwriting; is that correct 

A Yes. 

Q What does that page refer to? 

A (Witness peruses document.) 

I am not sure. It doesn't make much sense to me. 

Q Does it refer to a solicitation, Ollie solicitation, 
against the Barnes ' campaign? 

MS. LUBIN: He said he doesn't know. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Was there a time ^&n TKe'pVopTe" who "were working 




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for you were soliciting money for a campaign against Michael 
Barnes? 

MS. LUBIN: Does this relate in any way to 
Nicaragua? 

MR. OLIVER: It comes under the heading here of 
"Ollie solicitation." 

MS. LUBIN: This isn't his document, sir. 

MR. OLIVER: It is the document of one of his 
employees. He has already identified this as being -- 

MS. LUBIN: Why don't we put this off with the 
other agreement? 

MR. OLIVER: We can put it off until the end of the 
day. 

MS. LUBIN: Why don't we put it off until we could 
reconvene, is my understanding. 

MR. OLIVER: Well, I don't see why this reference 
to an "Ollie solicitation" isn't relevant to this investi- 
gation. Mr. Barnes was the Chairman of Western Hemisphere 
Affair Subcommittee of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. 

MS. LUBIN: Are you aware of any solicitation 
relating to Mr. Barnes, relating to Nicaragua? 

THE WITNESS: No. 

MS. LUBIN: Fine. 

MR. OLIVER: Are you aware^o^ aOY. SOiicitation 
relating to Mr- Barnes? 




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MS. LUBIN: We are going to put that off until 
another time. Thank you, sir. 

MR. OLIVER: On what grounds? 

MS. LUBIN: On the grounds that we agreed to. 

MR. OLIVER: Counsel, I have agreed to no such 
grounds . 

MS. LUBIN: Fine. If you want to push it now, you 
can, but I think we are too tired to continue with it like 
this at this time. 

MR. OLIVER: I have just defined Mr. Barnes as the 
Chairman of the Western Hemisphere Affairs Subcommittee with 
oversight responsibility for Nicaragua, which I believe would 
indicate that he is relevant to this investigation. 

MS. LUBIN: I would like to go off the record. 

MR. OLIVER: Off the record. 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 

MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Could we go on for a moment, putting off this 
subject until a time, to the second volume of the "To-do 
Activity Outline." 

Mr. Conrad, ^IV^ TiT'i?t'"Pa^"of~Oiat refers, on 
January 15, 1986, refers to the Central American Freedom 
Program, " and the first name under the Central American 
Freedom Progreun is Linda Chavez, with a phone number. 




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Could you tell me why that was on your to-do list 
under the Central American Freedom Program? 

A We wanted to let the White House know what we were 
doing. We wanted to make requests of them for various 
meetings . 

Q Related to the Central American Freedom Program? 

A Did you make contact with the White House about 



that? 



A I think we did not. 

Q But you did have a briefing at the White House two 
weeks later; is that correct? 
A Yes. 

And Linda Chavez was at that meeting? 
Yes. 

Do you know who made contact with Linda Chavez? 
No. 

You were aware of the luncheon which took place on 
January 6th at the Prime Rib with Elliott Abrams, Marty 
Artlano, Spitz Channell, Rich Miller and David Fischer; is 
that correct? 

A I didn't know who else was there. 
Q You are aware that Spitz Channell attended a 
luncheon on that date? 

' " UNfUfflED 

Q Were you aware that Rich THIle^wSs there? 



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No. 



Q Were you aware that Elliott abrams was there? 
A Yes. 

Q What did you know about that luncheon? 
A I don't recall. 

Q Did you have anything to do with setting it up? 
A No. 

Q Did you know that there were story boards with 
television ads that were shown to Mr. Abrams by Mr. Channell 
at that luncheon? 
A No. 

Q Where did these story boards for your ads come from? 
A The Robert Goodman Agency. 

Q And you would not have known of Spitz Channell 
having a luncheon with the Assistant Secretary of State for 
Latin American of Affairs and showing a story board on ads? 
MS. LUBIN: He said he knew about that. 
THE WITNESS: I said I knew about that luncheon. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q But you didn't know about the story boards and the 
ads being shown there? 
A No. 

Q Did Spitz Channell talk to you about the luncheon 
after he returned to the office, or within the subsequent 
days? 



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As I recall, he mentioned it. 

What did he say? 

I don't remember. It was not very important. 

If you would turn to February 22nd, 1986, 12:49, 



A 
Q 
A 
Q 
Page 2 . 

A There are two versions of that, both at the same 
time; one on Page — 
Q Page 20804. 
A Fine. 

Q Roman Numeral III refers to the Central American 
Freedom Program, and Number A under Roman Numeral III refers 
to "task force members." That is the first reference that I 
have seen in your notes — there are none in the exhibits 
that we have in 1985 to this task force. 

Could you tell me what this task force was about 
that is listed under the Central American Freedom Program? 

A We monitored the progress of the — "task force" is 
too grand of a name for it; all we did was get together once 
a week and everybody reported their progress. 
This group met once a week? 
Yes. 

The task force members were Steve Cook? 
Yes. 
What did he do? What was he reporting his progress 



UNCLASSIRED 



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A Public relations. 
Q In relation to? 

A Well, he handled the public relations aspect of the 
Central American Freedom Program. 

Q What kind of thing did he do? 

A Oh, he broadcast the B-roll footage, arranged for 
speakers to be on national TV programs. He put out news 
releases . 

Q What kind of speakers? 

A People representing the Freedom Fighters. 

Q Allen Carrier. I assume, since he is listed under 
"Edelman, " that he worked for Steve Cook; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he do? 

A I don't ranember. 

Q Then Debbie Messick is also listed under "Edelman," 
what did she do? 

A Staff person; I don't know. 

Q She worked for Steve Cook? 

A Yes. 

Q Allen Carrier and Debbie Messick generally assisted 
Steve Cook with his public relations function; is that 



correct? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



The next name there is Bruce Cameron, who you have 



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testified earlier was referred to you by Rich Miller. What 
was Bruce Cameron's role in this task force and what did he 
report during these weekly meetings? 

A Well, he wasn't present all the time. He talked 
about his lobbying efforts. 

Q What did he say about his lobbying efforts? 

A I would have to consult my other documents to be 
able to answer that. 

Q Did you attend these meetings? 

A Yes. 

Q Who else from the Channell organizations attended 
these meetings? 

A Well, Spitz and various other people at different 
times . 

I have to correct something. It is not only 
weekly. Sometimes it was more often than that. 

Q Sometimes more often than weekly? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Bruce Cameron report at these meetings about 
how certain congressmen were going to vote or which 
congressmen were leaning, or doubtful on this Central 
American aid bill? 

A Yes. That wasn't the basic thruit~of it. He, 
fundamentally, talked about what issues -- you know, we 
weren't so concerned about the votes of particular people; we 



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were concerned about the issues that they were discussing on 
which their vote would hinge. So he would and say, "Well, 
this is the argument today, " or "This was the argument 
yesterday," and "This is what we are hearing now," and so on. 

Q The next name on the task force list is Marty 
Artiano. What was his role on the task force? 



I can't remember that he ever attended. 

Why is his name on the list? 

I can't answer the question. I don't know. 

Did he ever attend? 

Not that I remember. 

Was he involved in the Central American Freedom 



A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 
Program? 

A I don't recall. 

Q You don't know why he would be one of five people 
listed on the task force? 

A Right . 

Q And this group met sometimes more often than weekly; 
during what period of time? 

A February and March. 

Q January to March, 19 86? 

A Somewhere in there, yes. 

Q Edie Frazier, what was her job on this task force? 

A She also did not attend the meetings. She was in 



UNCLASSIFIED 



charge of coordinating a letter-writing campaign in certain 



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media markets . 

Q In certain congressional districts? 

A Her involvement was to state-wide programs and 
national programs; some local, but having to do with her 
contacts, not having to do with necessarily where we wanted 
efforts being made. 

Q Why would she be in this task force meeting that 
was related, I assume, to a congressional vote that was to 
take place in April; is that correct? 

A Why would she be in the task force? 

Q Yes. Well, is it correct that this was related, 
this task force that was meeting weekly and sometimes more 
frequently, was related to the vote that was going to take 
place in Congress; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Why would she be in that meeting? 

A She didn't attend the meeting. 

Q Why would she be on the task force? 

A Because she was involved in organizing a grass roots 
letter-writing campaign, which was part of the Central 
American Freedom Program. |||\|| I Axxlrlrll 

Q As that relates to a congressional vote, it would 
seem that these grass roots letter-writing campaigns would be 
directed towards certain congressmen; isn't that correct? 

A It was directed to the issue of -- I mean since it 



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was nationwide, it could be any congressman. It was directed 
toward the issue of the Freedom Fighters. 

Q Edie Frazier's role was a nationwide letter-writing 
campaign that was not geared to specific congressional 
districts; is that your testimony? 

A I don't remember the original instructions to her, 
but I think the way it turned out was she was nationwide. 

Q What did Jack Lichtenstein do on the task force? 

A Basically the same thing as Edie Frazier. 

Q Nationwide, grass roots letter-writing campaign? 

A In his case, he went about it differently, and so I 
think his was less national and more targeted to the media 
markets that we were focusing on. 

Q How do you focus direct mail on media markets? 

A Get the Zip Codes in the media markets. It is easy 
to do. 

Q You are a professional fundraiser, and I assume you 
are very familiar with the costs of direct mail. 

A Yes. 

Q How much money did you spend on this nationwide 
direct mail campaign? Would you give us a ball park figure? 

A Well, maybe I have misstated it. We didn't pay 
anybody's costs in sending in direct mail. We paid the costs 
of -- I don't remember, I mean $20,000 or $40,000, something 



like that. 



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Q To do what? 

A To get people to call each other, their friends, 
whatever, to have them write letters, to the congressmen of 
their choice, on a subject that we were concerned about. 

Q To the congressmen of their choice? 

A Yes. 

Q Not to any special group of congressmen? 

A Right. 

Q Not to any swing voters? 

A No . I mean if swing voters were involved in the 
area, fine; if they weren't, that is fine, too. 

Q There wasn't a targeted list of votes that was 
discussed at these meetings? 

A Not to my knowledge. To be more precise about 
that, there were several targeted lists. I don't know 
whether they were discussed at these meetings or not. 

Q What were the targeted lists used for? 

A Well, we were constantly going to pick certain key 
ones, and it was used primarily for advertising. 

Q On Page 0020810, February 22nd, 1986, 12:49, there 
is a reference to a "campaign finance school. Do you see 
that? 

A Yes. 

Q Was that school ever organized? 

A No. 



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Q Was that another of Spitz Channell's ideas? 

A No. Well, yes, I suppose it was. 

Q Whose idea was it? 

A The way it is refined here, outlined here, it was 
my idea, but it was his idea to have one. 

Q You never followed through on it? 

A No. 

Q Could you turn to February 22nd, 1986, 12:49, Page 
1; this may be a duplicate. It looks like it. 

A 20810? 

Q Yes. This one has handwriting on it; the other one 



did not. 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 



Yes. 

Is that your handwriting in the margin? 
Yes, it is. 

On the right side, it says, "Deadline Tuesday, 
Steve and Phil, Number 1 money count for CAFP and NEPL --" 
A "Reserves. " 

Q " — reserves." What does that refer to? 
A Spitz wanted to know how much money we had in 
reserve, that we didn't have committed for other projects. 
Q For the Central American Freedom Program? 
A No. Just for -- how much did we have for the 
Central American Freedom Program and how much did we have in 
net reserves . 



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Q Why was there a Tuesday deadline? 

A I haven't any idea. 

Q On Page 0020643, if you would turn to that page, 
which is March 8th, I take it, 1986, 12:19, Page 1. 

A March what? 

Q March 8. 

A 10643? 

Q That is correct. You have there "Bruce Cameron and 
Penn Kemble." Did Penn Kemble ever arrange, or Bruce Cameron 
ever arrange doctors for a press conference? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Did they ever arrange a press conference for 
anybody? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Did they arrange for an ad in the Washington Post? 

A Yes. 

Q what was that ad? 

A Well, it was an ad in support of the Freedom 
Fighters . 

Q Was it under the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty? 



A No. 

Q What was it under? 

A PRODEMCA. 

Q But you paid for it, is that correct? NEPL paid 



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for the ad? 



A 
Q 

the ad? 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 

look. 
Q 
A 
Q 



I can't say that with any precision. 

Did you give a grant to PRODEMCA for the cost of 

Not for the cost of the ad. 

What was the grant to PRODEMCA for? 

It was unrestricted. 

It was an unrestricted grant? 

Right. 

Do you know how much it was for; do you remember? 

I don't remember. I would have to look. 

Was there just one? 

I think there was more than one. X would have to 



Of unrestricted grants? 

I would have to look again at our correspondence. 
Now, if you will turn over to Page 3 of this 
particular March 8 to-do list, you will see in the list of 
people on the task force members, you have added Penn Kemble, 
just below the name of Bruce Cameron which appears on the 
previous page. 
A Yes. 

Q Why was he added to this task force? 
A He was concerned about the issue and he came from 
time to time to our meetings. 



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Q This is the same time that you were giving a grant 
to PRODEMCA? 

A Well, I would have to look to see if the timing is 
the same. 

Q What was his role in the task force? What did he 
report on? 

A He didn't report on anything. He just listened and 
gave advice from time to time. 

Q What did he give advice about? 

A I don ' t remember . 

Q Was it about congressional votes? 

A I don't recall. 

Q He and Bruce Cameron were both on the Board of the 
Center for Democracy in the Americas, which NEPL had given a 
grant to; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And he was on the board or was the head of PRODEMCA, 
which NEPL gave a grant to; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And he placed an ad in the Washington Post, or he 
and Bruce Cameron placed an ad in the Washington Post, under 
the name of PRODEMCA, that was related to the Nicaraguan 
Freedom Fighters; is that correct? 

A Well, I am not sure, actually, if it was the 
Washington Post or the New York Times 



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Q Your to-do notes refer to an ad in the Washington 
Post under the names Bruce Cameron and Penn Kemble. 

A I know. But I am thinking about it now, and it may 
have been the New York Times . 

Q Could it have been both? 

A Possibly. 

Q And he also sat on your Central American Freedom 
Program task force; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q How long did that task force stay in existence? 

A Well, I don't know the answer to that. I would 
have to check the specific dates. 

Q Was it a January to March program, designed to try 
to influence the vote in the Congress that was going to take 
place in March or mid-April? 

A I would have to check my records. 

Q You don't remember whether there was an effort to 
influence the vote on aid to the Freedom Fighters in the 
Congress in March or April 1986? 

A I would have to check my records about the length 
of time involved. 



Q But there was such an effort? 
A To do what now? 
Q To influence the Congress on the vote that was to 
take place in the House of Representatives on aid to the 



1 an effort? 

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Freedom Fighters in March or April of 1986? 

A Part of our program was directed to that, yes. 

Q Is that what this task force was concerned with? 

A No. Not exclusively, certainly. 

Q You are primarily a fundraising organization; is 
that correct? 

A Well, I wouldn't typify it that way. 

Q What would you call it? 

A We ' re a public education organization. 

Q How many educators work for you? Teachers, 
doctors, Ph.D's, people who are in the field of education? 
Anybody irrt'^he field of education? 

A we contracted all of that out. 

Q Who did you contract that out to? 

A All manner of consultants. Most of our own money 
was spent on consultants. 

Q Well, you have indicated that you have two direct 
mail specialists, a lobbyist, a PR person — 

A Who are the direct mail specialists? 

Q Well, Edie Frazier and Jack Lichtenstein. You said 
they ran the grass roots mail program. 

A Well, that's not -- okay. You and I have different 
definitions of what is direct mail. 

Q None of these people would be considered educators, 
would they? 



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A Public education, yes, indeed. Advertising, all 
kinds of advertising, including grass roots — 

Q Lobbying? 

A No, lobbying is not under public education. 
Lobbying is something different. 

Q It appears to me, on your to-do notes, that this 
Central American Freedom Program task force lasts from 
January until April of 1986, and then it disappears from your 
to-do notes. And this is a group which you have testified 
met more often than even weekly. 

A Yes. 

Q And it would seem that this is the period of time, 
beginning with January 6th, 1986, when Spitz Channell met 
with Elliott Abrams, when you started to have your meetings 
at the White House arranged by David Fischer, that this was 
the period of time when your major project was relating to 
the vote in the Congress which took place on April 15th, 
1986. Is that correct? 

A We were involved in a public education program. 

Q My question was whether the task force, that is 
referred to in your notes during that period, was primarily 
concerned with influencing the vote in the Congress_._ 

A No, I wouldn't say so. 

Q I want to refer you to the memoranda, letters, 
invoices transcripts, et cetera, in the last black book, to 



te in the Congress. 

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Document A0079240. It is dated April 15th, 1986. It is a 
letter to Rich Miller from Spitz Channell, and it starts off, 
"Dear Rich: As promised, the final House votes to decide the 
fate of freedom in Nicaragua are today, April 15th, being 
taken. " 

Then the letter goes on to talk about the program, 
and it asks, from everyone, toward the end. Spitz asks Rich 
Miller to convey his thanks to everyone, and tell them he 
will personally contact them about future projects, and then 
ask him to tell them that they are basically off the payroll. 
Then he lists the people who he asks him to contact, saying 
that they are all terminated as of that night, the night that 
the House votes were being taken. 

That list includes, does not, all the members of 
the task force referred to in your to-do notes? 

A Plus some others. 

Q But it does refer to all the people whose names are 
on the task force in your to-do notes; is that correct? 

A No. It omits some. 

Q Who does it omit? 

A Allen Carrier and Debbie Messick. 

Q But it does include their boss, Steve Cook; is that 



correct? 



yNClASSIFIED 



And Marty Artiano and David Fischer? 



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I don't know. He was consulting. 



A And it does not Bruce Cameron. 

Q But it includes Penn Kemble; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q It includes Jack Liechtenstein? 

A Yes. 

Q And Dan Kirchendahl, who is not referred to on the 
task force, but what was Dan Kirchendahl ' s job? What tasks 
did he perform for Spitz Channell in Sentinel? 

A 

Q You don't know what Dan Kir"chondah - l did? 

A At this particular time, what he did, I do not know. 

Q Do you, generally, know what he did in 1986, early 
1986? 

A He was a consultant. 

Q Bob and Adam Goodman? 

A Advertising people. 

Q Isn't it true, Mr. Conrad, that between February 
and April of 1986, that Channell organizations paid for a 
very large number of television ads that were directed at 
certain media markets, that affected targeted congressmen 
whose votes were crucial in the aid to the Contra vote in the 
House of Representatives? 

A Say it again. I am sorry. 

Q Isn't it true that in March and .i^pril of 1986, the 
Channell organizations paid for a television spot 



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advertisements in selected media markets that were related to 
targeted members of Congress whose votes were crucial to aid 
for the Central American Freedom Fighters? 

A I don't know how targeted the media markets were. 
Q You did run those television spot ads in March and 
April of 1986? 

MS. LUBIN: What television spot ads? 
MR. OLIVER: The television spot ads that were 
prepared by Bob and Adam Goodman. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, we ran some television spots in 
some areas . 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Was it a large number? 

A I think so. As I said, I would to check the 
records . 

Q Is it still your testimony that this task force was 
not related — 

MS. LUBIN: That wasn't his testimony. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Is it your testimony that the task force that was 
referred to in your to-do notes was not primarily concerned 
with the vote that was to take place in Congress relating to 
the Freedom Fighters? 

A It was not primarily, no. 
Q What was its primary task? 



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A To influence public opinion, as I have stated 
previously. 

Q Why did you disband it on April 15th, 1986? 

A I didn't. 

Q Why did Spitz Channell write to Rich Miller and 
tell all those people that they were all terminated on April 
15th? 

A He decided to stop the program. You will have to 
ask him why he did it. 

Q Did it relate, in your opinion, to the House vote? 

A That is conjecture on my part. 

Q Do you have an opinion? 

A No. 

Q I don't really have much more, but there are a 
couple of things here that I can't find. If you would just 
give me a moment . 
[Pause . ] 

If you would turn towards the back of this large 
book on Page — 

A What is the date? 

Q It is January 7th, 1987, on Page 8. Do you have 
that? 

A Yes. 20926? 



Q That is correct. On Number D says, "Design CAFP 
Program for January-March." What did that refer to? 



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A We were supposed to do another Central American 
Freedom Program. 

Q Number E says, "Meeting on Nicaragua with consul- 
tants. Number 1, what we did right and wrong." What does 
that refer to? 

A We wanted to have a meeting, we wanted to ask them 
how we did — how what we did was good and how what we did 
needed improvement . 

Q Number 2 says, "What we need to do for the next go- 
around." What did "the next go-around" refer to? 

A The "January-March" above it. 

Q Why was the January-March period important? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Could it have been that they felt that was the 
period in which Congress would be considering Contra aid? 

A It could be. 

Q Was it? 

A I don't know. 
[Pause. ] 

Q Would you look at the June 14th, 1986, to-do list, 
Page 1, 00 — 

A Wait, wait one second. 

June 14th, 1986; what page? 

Q Page 1, this is the 1310 reference. 

A Yes. 20369. 



ICUSSinED 



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That is correct . 



UNCUSSIFIED 



Q On the right-hand side of that, there is some 
handwriting; is that your handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q It says, "If we win: Nicaragua. Letters from RR. " 
Is that Ronald Reagan? 
A Yes. 

Q " Kirehon i j^hl , Ollie, Elliott AJorams , Trent Lott, 

Bob Michaels, Mitch Daniels, Penn Kemble and UNO" What were 
those letters for and who were they to go to? 

A They were supposed to be addressed to us. 
Q To NEPL? 
A Yes . 

Q What were they supposed to say? 
A "Thank you for your public education program." 
Q And "If we win," refers to what? 

A I am not sure. This is June of 1986; I am not sure 
what it refers to. 

Q Could it have referred to a vote in the Congress? 
A Possibly. 

Q But you don't remember whether or not it was a vote 
in Congress? 

A I would have to check. 

Q Why would these letters come from the Minority 
Leader and Minority Whip of the House of Representatives' 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



688 



What did you do for them? 

A I have no idea what we did for them. 

Q Why were they on the list? 

A Spitz told me to put them on the list. 

Q Do you know why Spitz told you to put them on the 
list? 

A He wanted letters from them. 

Q There is a reference, if you will turn to June 14, 
13:10, Page 20- 

A Okay . 

Q On Number IID, there is a reference to "Curt 
Herge/Donna Miller." It says, "Ask about registering our 
lobbyists (Sentinel)." What does that refer to? 

A I am not remembering with any specificity. 

Q Were your lobbyists for Sentinel registered? 

A I don't really know the answer. 

Q You were the Chief Administrator of the Channel 1 
organization, and you don't know whether or not your lobbyists 
were registered? 

A I don't. 

Q Do you know whether or not they were not registered? 

A I don't know that either. 

Q Was there a period of time that they were not 



registered? 



I don't know. 



UNCUSSIRED 



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Q You don't know why this is on the list? 

A It is some matter long forgotten now. 

Q Would you turn to July 16th, 1986, Page A0020300. 

A July 16th, 1986; page what? 

Q Page 4. 

A 20300? 

Q That is correct. Under the "Central American 
Freedom Program," there are several notations there. I this 
your handwriting in the margins? 

A Yes. 

Q It says, "Rich and Green, get an RR thank you 
letter to us," and then written in your handwriting is, 
"Deadline August 17th." In parenthesis it says, "(Rich to 
draft)." What does that refer to? 

A Well, we were constantly asking Rich and Colonel 
North to get a thank you letter from the President for 
various efforts and activities that we engaged in. 

Q When it said, "Transcribe all tapes, audio and 
video, " what did that refer to? 

A When we sent speakers around the country, many 
times we got audio tapes or video tapes of them in action, 
and we wanted a transcript of all that so that we could put 
it in a huge report and send it to all our contributors. 



Did you get it? 

Not the transcription. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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Q If you would turn, toward the end, to September 19, 
1986, 18:46, Page 2, Document Number 0020509. 

A Page what? 

Q Page 2 . 

A 20509? 

Q That is correct. You have a number of references 
there. Number C says, "Letters of endorsement needed," and 
it says, "Green, Elliott Abrams , Mitch Daniels, Penn Kemble 
and UNO." What was that referring to? 

A We were always wanting letters of endorsement from 
all kinds of people. These are several on the list. 

Q Were these letters of endorsement related to your 
Central American Freedom Program? 

A They could be related to any one of a number of 
things. I don't remember what this was specifically done for. 

Q Why would Elliott Abrams be on the list? 

A Spitz Channell said, "Put him on the list." 

Q On Number D, 2A, it says, "Want ads thanking 
congressmen for voting with us." It says, "Number 1, work up 
a budget; Number 2, get list of all Democrats from Dan 
Kirehendah i . " Could you tell me what that reference Number 



D2 is about? 

A Well, I don't know for sure. I would have to look 
at the correspondence. Actually, frankly, I don't know that 
I ever knew. 



UNGIASSIFIEO 



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UNCUSSIFIEO 



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Q Why would you get a list of all the Democrats from 



A I don't know. 

Q That was something that Spitz told you to do? 

A Yes. All of this is what he told me to do. 

Q Would you turn to the memoranda, invoices, 
transcripts. Number A0029521, and it is dated January 16th, 
1986. This is a letter to Mrs. Julius Pierce in Florida. 

A Yes, I have it. 

Q She was referred to earlier in your to-do list on 
your prospective Florida trip, which you never took. 

A Yes. 

Q The first line says, "Victory on this aid vote will 
go a very long way to, as you well say, 'save Ronald Reagan.'' 
What aid vote are you talking about? 

A It is not my letter; I don't know. 

Q Were you the Executive Director of Sentinel? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this a letter that went out to a large number 
of contributors? 

A I never saw this letter until two days_aqp. 
showed it to me for the first time. 

Q Were you aware that Sentinel was in an emergency 
situation in which they were soliciting generous contri- 
butions, in January of 1986, relating to an aid vote in the 



til two days aop whej^vou 

UNCUISOT 



886 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



692 



Congress? 

A Ever organization we had was constantly in an 
emergency. That is a fundraising technique. 

Q This particular emergency, though, according to 
this letter, relates to an aid vote in the Congress; is that 
correct? 

MS. LUBIN: The letter speaks for itself. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q A few pages further on, in Docximent Number 81706, 
there is -- 

A What is it? 

Q It is called "A plan of action to lobby Congress on 
military aid for the Nicaraguan resistance, prepcred by Bruce 
Cameron on January 24th, 1986." Was that plan of action 
submitted to you? 

A No. 

Q Was it submitted to any of the Channell 
organizations? 

MS. LUBIN: I think he testified he had not seen it 
before. 

THE WITNESS: No, I have not seen it before. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q You have never seen it before. This is the same 
Bruce Cameron that was on the task force that met weekly 
during the period of January-April 1986? 






; that met weekly 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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(202) M«-M«6 



UNCUSSffi 



693 



A Yes. 

Q And he was a lobbyist who was retained by NEPL; is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q A few pages later, there is a reference to a 
document. Number 78810, dated March 19, 1986. 

A Yes. 

Q It is a document which we have referred to earlier. 
It is addressed to you, Dan Conrad at Sentinel, from Eric 
Singer, for the Center for Democracy in the Americas. 

A Yes. 

Q "Re projections on tomorrow's vote in the House." 
Do you remember receiving this document? 

A Yes. 

Q Is the center for Democracy in the Americas the 
organization which Bruce Cameron was associated with? 

A Yes. 

Q It was a lobbying organization; is that correct? 

A I don't know what their official status is. 

Q They were funded by NEPL; is that correct? 

A Partly. 

Q Do you know what they got any other funds from? 

A I do not, no. 

Q Why would Dan Conrad send you projections on a vote 



in the House of Representatives? j a 



ONCUSSIFIED 



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(202) S44-MM 



UNClASSra 



694 



MS. LUBIN: I think you have that backwards. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q This is to Dan Conrad from Eric Singer; why would 
he send you "projections on tomorrow's vote in the House of 
Representatives " ? 

A Because I asked him to. 

Q Why did you ask him to? 

A We wanted his projections as to who was going to 
vote which way. 

Q You were concerned about that vote? 

A Spitz asked me to get the list. 

Q Why didn't Eric singer send them to Spitz Channell? 

A Because I ask for it. 

Q What did you do with it after you got it? 

A Gave it to Spitz Channell. 

Q What did he do with it? 

A I couldn't tell you. 

Q A few pages alter, there is a report which was 
referred to earlier. Document 76222, from Bruce Cameron to 
Dan Conrad, dated March 19, 1986. Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this a typical report from Bruce Cameron to you? 

A I don't remember ever having seen this. 

Q You have never seen this document before? 

A I do not recall it 



UNCUSSIHED 



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UNCLASSinO 



695 



Q Bruce Cameron did sit on your weekly, and sometimes 
more often, meetings of the task force on the Central 
American Freedom Fighters; is that correct? 

A On occasion, yes. 

Q Were the reports that he gave at those task force 
meetings similar to the activities that are referred to in 
this activities report? 

A No. 

Q What were his reports about? 

A Just as I said previously, he would talk about 
issues that were being discussed now in the Congress, the 
arguments that were holding sway. 

Q He was a lobbyist who was paid by you; is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q As a lobbyist, was he retained to try to influence 
votes? 

A You will have to ask Spitz Channell. I don't know 
what the agreement was when he was hired. 

Q But you sat in on these frequent meetings between 
January and April of 1986 where he was present? 

A Yes. 

Q And he did not discuss influencing votes; is that 
your testimony? 

A He discussed the issues that were being discussed 



3c aiscuss inriuencing vo 

UNCLASSIHED 



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UNCLASSIHED 



696 



in Congress, related to the Freedom Fighters. 

Q Couldn't you have read that in the newspapers? 

A Possibly. 

Q Didn't it strike you as strange that a lobbyist 
wasn't reporting to you about how people were going to vote? 

A It didn't strike me as strange, no. 

Q What do you think lobbyists do? What is your 
concept of a lobbyist? 



I am not sure I have a good one. 

Were you the Executive Director of ATAC? 

I don't know. I might have been. I would have to 



A 

Q 

A 
check. 

Q Did you have some responsibilities for ATAC? 

A I don't know. There are so many organizations, I 
couldn't possibly tell you. I would have to check. 

Q Earlier, you have indicated in your testimony that 
you were the Chief Administrator, becoming the Executive 
Director of all the Channell organizations. 

A Yes, but that doesn't mean I have responsibility. 

Q You did not have any responsibility for ATAC? 

A I don't know. I would have to check. I can't 
recall being involved in any meaningful way. 

Q Were you on the Board? 

A I would have to look. 

Q You don't know, you don't remember? 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



891 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



697 



A I don't know. 

Q I want to refer you to Document Number 3 3006, dated 
August 25th, 1986, which was earlier referred to by Mr. 
Fryman during his examination. 

A 33006? 

Q Right. 

Q Do you have that? 

A Yes. 

Q Was it your testimony that you had not seen this 
document before? 

A I don't recall having seen it. 

Q Were you aware that Spitz Channell wanted a 
document, a memo sent to Don Regan in the Summer or early 
Fall of 1986? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q You read this document earlier when Mr. Fryman 
referred to it; is that correct? 

A Did I read it before? I think I did, yes. 

Q On the second page of this document, the first 
paragraph refers to "$600,000 being spent by NEPL to conduct 
pro-Nicaraguan Freedom Fighters tours in 47 congressional 
districts in the seven months prior to the first House vote 
in March on Freedom Fighter aid. " Is that correct? 

A That is what it says . 

Q You earlier indicate thai: you were not aware of, or 



UNCLASSIRED 



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(2021 ^* 6-6(M 



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698 



did not believe that your efforts were directed at congress- 
ional districts. 

MS. LUBIN: I don't think that is quite correct. 
The record will stand for itself. 

MR. OLIVER: Very well. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Were the efforts of NEPL in 1986 directed at 
congressional districts in the Central American Freedom 
Program? 

A They were directed to media markets . 
Q In a previous paragraph on the previous page, in 
the third paragraph, it refers to "television educational 
informational messages were broadcast by the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty in 4 9 congressional 
districts and the District of Columbia." 

It goes on to say that "ads were broadcast in 
dif f icult-to-win congressional districts whose congressmen 
were undecided as to their vote for or against Freedom Fighter 
aid. Over $2.5 million went to the television campaign 
alone . " 

The next paragraph says, "$750,000 was spent by 
Sentinel directly to build congressional support for President 
Reagan. This included advocacy television messages in 32 
congressional districts." 

Is it still your testimony that your campaign was 



cy television messages ir 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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UNCUSSIHED 



699 



not directed at specific congressional districts? 

A I didn't write this memo. I had not seen it until 
a few days ago. It is a pack of lies, as far as I can tell. 
It has been grossly inflated, in many salient respects. And 
we have maps that will illustrate very carefully that we 
identified media markets. 

We can also produce, and I am sure you have seen, 
media market lists generated by Bob and Adam Goodman which 
directed our efforts for advertising. 

Q On Document 0027088, further on, an invitation from 
International Business Communications, to Dan from Steve. 
A Could I see what :it; looks like? 
Q Yes. 

MS. LUBIN: The one thA't doesn't have anything to 
do with Nicaragua, was his testimony the other day? 
THE WITNESS: Yes, I have it. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q In that document Steve sent that is addressed to 
you, Steve of IBC says, "As per Spitz' request, I am attaching 
a list of open seats in the House of Representatives," and it 
goes on to indicate, does it not, members of Congress and 
numbers of districts; is that correct? 
A Yes. 

MR. OLIVER: Could we go off the record for a 
minute . 



UNCUSSIHED 



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UNCIASSIRED 



700 



[Brief discussion off the record. ] 

MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

MR. FRYMAN: I have completed the questioning I 
have for today except with respect to certain areas that we 
have agreed to defer. I believe Mr. Oliver has indicated 
that he has completed his questioning except with respect to 
certain specific areas we have also agreed to defer. 

So on that understanding, we will end the deposition 
for today, and if we want to continue on a different day, we 
will reach a mutually agreeable time and will commence on 
another day. 

MS. LUBIN: Understood. Thank you. 

[Whereupon, at 5:34 p.m., the deposition in the 
above-entitled matter was recessed, to be resumed later per 
agreement of parties . ] 



aNCUSSlflB 



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ONGUSSm 



701 



CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT 
I have read the foregoing 183 pages, which contain 
a correct transcript of the answers made by me to the 
questions therein recorded. 



DANIEL LYNN CONRAD 



Of 



Subscribed and worn to before me this 
, 1987. 



_day 



Notary Public in and for: 



My coimnission expires; 



BN5USSW 



896 



)07 C imtt. N E 
Wiikiii(nia. DC. 20003 



UNCLASSIFIED 



702 



CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER 
I, Terry Barham, the officer before Whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing transcript 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereaftrer reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my supervision; that said deposition transcript is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action. 



TerryBarhaJiw^So 




Ibtary Public in 
and for the'District of Columbia 



My coinmission expires May 15, 1989 



UNCUSSinED 



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900 



Ic't ch« larg«(C bait org«nlx«d ind moic «ff«c^lv« and u't ch« one 

that has tht U.S. support for tha longest period of tlma. *^vj^Qn- 

tWa'ra helping them now to coordinate their Washington activities. 
We've established an office for them. We've found people to do their congressional 
affairs for them on a gratis basis. 

We're doing the media coordination for them and also the coordination 
of meetings as the circle goes out beyond just media 4 Congressional relations. 
Now into fund raising 4 administrative 4 Logistical things. 

Who pays' 

They do. And it's precious money to them when they're late on expenses 
as difficult as it may be you have to remind yourself that somebody died down there 
today. You can't really get mad. 

Once they've left the country like that aren't they totally dependent 
on donations of one kind or another? 

No, they really haven't left the country. the in a p 




TMy go on missions that last 6 to "J months. 

'^,~ ^ Savaral of the fighters impressed upon me how much more comfortable 

'^ a. ^' they are m the field fighting. They siad they eat better, they sleep better. 

S ■= '^ Their with their people. They're being given food 4 intelligence and a place ; o 

sleep and so on. they actually prefer to be in the field to the camp. 

Although they have to go back to the camp for orientat.on, tor :ns: -jc: 



tor R 4 K. 



Do chcse people all have redios, so t hcv know whai ' s gome 



iiNHi AQQinrn ^?) 



901 



...-J 



'' .UNClASSifiEfl 

Thar* art^^^tglonal conn«ndt wich from anyv^r« fipi 

m*n. E«ch-»l choi« coonandt 1$ In radio concacc with hcadqu«rc*ri. ^^^^9o« 

I ' 

Is chac connand moving coo' 
V 
Yes . Thay'ra moving also. 

Wc figura now as many as^^^^Byoung men, and in soma casas, oldar 

fflcn, across cha bordar, insida Nicaragua, waicing co come ovar, but chare aren'c 

weapons and boocs for chem. 

The main ching I wanced Co find ouc is whac his needs really are, how 
his weapons are. 

The second poinc is chac cha people in che camps are primarily chere 
for R 4 R and for re-supply. che war is noc a sac-piece baccle. Ic is an insurgency 
And, in face, chey have abouc^^^^^insurgencs whereas Che Sandanlscas, when chey 
won, only had abouc 3,500. 

So even chough chey' re so out-gunn«d, In cams of cachnology and weaponry 
Ln a councry of 2.5 million is a hell of a big insurgency. 

The^^^^Hcan cie up a 100,000 man army. 

The Nicaraguan army is 100,000. There are nearly as many Cubans in 
Nicaragua as chere are freedom fighcars. 

They need cha Cubans and chair canks co keep cheir own people around. 

If freedom is alive and well in Nicaragua, chey don'c need 100.000 
people CO cry Co snuff ouc^^^^^Bgucr i 1 las . Originally, during cha opposicion 
CO Somoya, cha people did have shocguns and piscols. Because che scruggle agains: 
Soffloya ti4^ been going on for several years, as a maccer of face, ac che c ime Cos:a 
Rica was a conduic for arms co che Sandanisca forces and o provide che popular uprisi 
and chac is evencually whac happened. 

So che poeple are armed. In view of chis, che Sandaniscas have even 
cleared che milicia, which is pare of chac 100,000 men under arras. And cheyre 
not fearful ot providing arms co people, but they keep them under concrol chrougn 
various survellancc techniques, such as what Cuban* call Sandanisca Defense Z O't- i : : c ^ 



mmss\m 



902 



1^. ( 




^2 



Anybody who tv«n b«|Tnt ce leek Ilka they're lecctng out e( tine If inf orQJkf upo< 
And chec't « ceugh epperecus to flghc codey In Nlcerague. 
BuC, we heve been In couch, because of our experience, with the entire 
range of thM arme d and ^ e poUclcal opposition to the Concras and when Rich was 
talking about the^^^^^Karmt , he's not referring to the Mosquitas . There's 2 Mosqu 
groups. There's the Mlsura Brooklyn Rivera and Steadman Fagoth and Mlsurasata and 

then there is Misurasata , which Is a combination of Sumu , Rama and indians 

which has aobuc another^^^^^nen under arms, plus th^^^^^k under AROE, the thing 
cchac grew out of it, which Is the Democratic Revolutionary Alliance, which has 
many arms right about^^^^^^k But in^^^^^^^^^Ln March and 
there was one guerilla leader who told me they had^^^^^^^H ready to fight, but 
they needed communications, books, weapons and leadership. They're ready to flghc, 
but they needed comnunc lac Ions, We sent down a mlllcary expert to judge 
the viability. So that when he came back, he could be part of the Congressional 
debate. Becuase one of the dlslnfomacion pieces they used against the freedom 
fighters is chat they're not militarily viable. 

So we sent him down to look at Ic. He's a former Colonel in the Canadi 
Air Force. And he's a professor of International Relations at Boston University. 
He flew in Vietnam. His name Is Yorkametre. A real dynamic fellow. 

But when he was dotm there. In fact NBC got Ic on film, they send an 
800 man force against a 2,000 sen contingent of artillery and Infantry and routed 
them. They were getting ready to attack the canps. They cook 13 casualties. 3 
died. They killed 200. And routed the force entirely. 

Th«y took 180 AK47s. They took mortars, hand grenades. ' 

See, what happens is, they gee a lot of ches weapons back. And :hey 
don't have aimunicion for them. They get AK47s and they don't have the amunicion 
for them. 

What they do with their young recruits i« they give them an old Span;<i 
ball riMe, the FAL, the (old) bolt acrion. roll o one rifle , and his job .^ :o 
go our with his ri(l«>, and after he'% h,id his tr.iininy - you know thcv dn ci*-'' ; •"■- 
l r i i n i ng. 



UNCLASSiQED 



903 



UNGIASSIHED 



Tliey give them formacion training and they give them ll8ve ammun icat ion t+6i5lrtg» 

It's very prbTtss ional ly done. 
I 
And his Job is to come back with his FAL and an AK<*7 . 

And chcy all do Ic. 

And then they turn their FALs back in. It goes to the next recruit. 

It's like the gun we made in World War II for S2.50. It would shoot 
just one time. You use that to get a real gun. We dropped them by air in France. 

The best I can tell, a shotgun is the best thing co use in jungle warfa: 

On a very rapid fire machine gun. That's why the AK47s and the M16s 
are the best weapons. 

The M16 fires a 22.5 caliber bullet. 

I bet I could get 10,000 people to give their old shotgun to this. 

Only one problem. You can't export guns for military use from the 



One reason Rich and 1 almost feel excited about this 



because, on March 1, for the first time, the various opposition forces got together. 
They signed a document. 

They've come to the realization that the opposition to the Sandaniscas 
now is as broad, if not broader, than that which was there for Somoya. 

The Miawi Herald has turned around. The Washington Post has turned 
around. 

Frank and I sec up the editorial board for Arturo Crug and Alfonso 
Robello ani «M w«nc ov«r and it came out about the San Jose document in the headline 
of Che lead editorial wa* "A Fair Offer to the Sandanistas." 

t28 million is totally inadequate. (Alfonso Robello says) Sl^ million 
is doubly totally inadequate. A Hind helicopter costs well over $23 million and 
there's 12 of them and they're coming. 



yscussro 



904 



UNCUSSIFIED 



C f^ 

has said publlcally, so thac the Sandan iicasLt^jJSd<J\Aac 
secrec radio comnunicat ions in the field saying we have red-eves. 



Its a big 11^. 

they're playing a psychological war againsc the Sandaniscas. 

The more sophisticated of the shoulder-held missies, the red-eyes. 
There's 2 different kinds. One that's a little less expensive and there's one that s 
$8,000. It can take it out. 

And there was a scare about 315 weeks ago. They called in the crews . 

Texans are the most patriotic. 

There really hasn't been a vehicle, almost before tonight, for a direct 
mechanisni to them. Because it's been such delicate territory that nobody's really 
worked out the details on ic . 

I don't think thac anybody who's sac with somebody at a cable like 
this yet. It's going right there. It's buying these rounds. And its buying chat 
missle. It's buying thac booc . 

Yes, this is the firsc. 

They have lose a large porcion, just because chey've had to go through 
middle men. 

There's nothing I hace worse than getting screwed. I'm scared to death 
any money I give to this thing is going to end up in somebodies pocket. 

There isn't one dim« that isn't going right into Adolfo Ca lero ' s hands. 
Not one dime. 

I have known Adolfo Calero for roughly 2 years going on 3 years. He 
was jailed by ch« Sandniscas. He lead scrikes againsc Somoya. He encouraged his 
own employees to go ouc on strike against Sonioya . 

Adolto Calero was jailed by Somoya. But Adolfo Calerois a conservac ; -e . 

Cruz IS a social Democrat. He believes in a free economy but he beiiev»s 
in government support for a free economy which will never work. I used to work 
.It AID dnd I've seen these kind. 



mmm 



905 



i^'"^^ 



UNCUSSIFIED 



Buc Ch« polnc t* chat ch« tnclr* tpaccorgm now/n« In oppedcton co 
ch« S«ndaiH»c««. Th« tnclrt spectrum. ^ 5 f\ 



^2s 



Th«y JilUd lit Socl«l ChrUeUns a month ago. It caustd tham InertdiblJ 
\ 
harm hart in Washington. 

But Adolfo Calaro It a contarvatia. Ha navar gava in. Ha navar gava 

in to tha tanptatlon of trying to nagotlata with tha Sandanistas. 

Aftar tha alactions, aftar tha plant for tha ravolution, tha state 
of Nicaragua, tall January, 19S3, 2^ years after the time for revolution, he came 
to Washington to lobby for aid to tha Sandanista government. 

Since thn I have teen him on coundast occationt, he has been so tired 
from working on behalf of hit men and this causa. 

As long as wa stay on top, as long at we stay in the offensive position, 
they will be on the way out. 

those guys ara down there. They've got 2,000 Sovlett. 
They've got 6,000 Cubant. Thera't 2,000 . 

It't not a set piece battle. The thing that has changed the equation 
are the Russian tanks, the Russian artillery and the Russian Hind helicopters. 

How long do your boots last? Maximum 3 months. Why is that? 

The humid. It's wet. And because they do a lot of walking. TheV re 
not riding m trucks. there are no trucks. They walk. And over pretty rough :errai 

They have dona a pretty good job of getting their wounded cared for » 
Because, paychologlcally , you've got to have that. 




These are Soviet-made land mines. They have been uncovered bv the 
guerillas, disarmed, and brought back to camp. And they're going co re-arm che-r 
and place them again against the Sandanistas. 

They don't even have cheir own mines. 

Thiits similar to a cl<iymore. 



m mm 



906 



of a conteen. 



UNCLASSIFIED , 

These are raw recruits. Look ac the tin can this guy tfii. Ipfccead 



iThtre's a lot of heavy terrain. They do a lot of ambushing. 

Vhcn I was there, I asked why there were so many men in the camp, 
i want to know how many m«n you have her. 

He said. "5.000." 

I said, "How many do you have m the field'" 

"Some for medical care: some for R 4 R; some to be re-supplied. refi:;ei. 
But most of them because we don't have even a pack for them to carry their amnunitic 
They don't have boots. 

What's happened is, the Sandanistas started their drive for military 
conscription. And they thought they would get support. 

Instead, they got insurrection. In several of the major cities. Major 
insurrections. Coordinated insurrections. 

And these boys came across the border. And their mothers and fathers 
sent them. They said, "If you're going to fight, fight for the side that will give 
you a choice. And that's why they fight. 

That boy could have gone to Costa Rica. But they sent him to Honduras 
to fight instead. 

He could have gone to Costa Rica and just cooled out. They sent him 
to Honduras to fight. 

ch« reality Is we're on the side of the angels with all this.. 

Th« miracle that I know about is that these people that we were just 
talking about have the highest morale. It brings tears to your eyes to see these 
peop le . 

Having surrived and even grown since last may when the aid was cue 
Off. 

And they are having to tell people. "I'm sorry you cannot join us, 
vou rnnnoi fight, because we cannot give vou ,i wpapon to tiRht uiili. !.'<■ rnno; »;■.-.> 
von boots so that vou c^n go tijihc 



\mmm 



907 



r'^'' ' 



UNClASSinED 



■•%?^ 



tS«X4J£5_ 12 2i«llcepijtr»«^And ^' th«r« wa* on* rtady for ••ch on* 

(. U 
of ut, w« '^a. talking about $96,000. '' , < *> ^ 

Half tha forcat now who ara In opposition to cha Sandantstaa would 

V 
turn tha ethar way if Amarlcani want to fig'<t, and wa don't nead Antaricani. 

1 undarstand thara ara a bunch of Anaricans down chara. 

Ya*, but thay'ra voluntear trainars. Thara Just doing training. Thay'rt 
in and out. 

Thara are no Americans. 

But you don't nead them. 

A^^^^^man insurgency against <^,000 full time rank and file military. 
60,000 ar* militia. ^<' ^^^^^ '''* ^^* technology thats throwing tha whole thing 
out of kilter. 

It's technology of Hind helicopters, Soviet tanks and the Soviet rapid 
fire assault rifles that everybody on the other side has. That's what's throwing 
it out. 

If they had enough amounition for the AK47s and they had enough red 
eyes to strategically place themselves. 

How can you get the »«^2*^**^ ^'* ^^*y readily available? 

Yeah. 

They're getting arms on the international market. From everybody. 



Buc by tha time you go through 2 or 3 wholesalers, aren't you paying 
10 timaa tha'pclca? 

They pay vary carefully. They've got pretty good credit right now 
with the wholesalers. But it doesn't extend far enough to get the AK47 rounds thev 
need on the red eye missies. 

I would think they would be the first ones to stare manufacturing AKi^i. 

No but they get them f rem ^^^^^^^^K They can get the 
they can't carry off Che ammunition to supply the riflles. 



908 



UNCLASSliD 



I'a not tur* p«opl« ntad aucoiMClc w««pon$. 



'^^6928 



Xh« Insurgency has co live off th« commodUlcs avallabl* chreugh success. 

W« can gee you a briefing on exacdy whac chelr olUtary needs are. 

Calero wants those red eye mlssj ee. H« w^pn boot*. H e wants back 
packs. He wants AK47 rounds which you can get on the international market. He 
wanes conriunicat ions equipnMnt. 

But $14 million could be spent in 2 months without batting an eye. 

Reagan ought to forget the $14 million and start asking for a whole 
lot more. 

The $14 million has already been appropriated by Congress. And it 
can be released under certain conditions stepulated by the Congress. So that's 
whac we're stuck with. 

The only reason they've succeeded so far is because of people like 



yourself who have provided the material support for there to keep going. And it's 



There 



not just Americans. 

There are| 
are Central Americans who are bacing this effort. 

Thefl^^^^^^veve been backing this. It began 

the United States might noc really bother at the right time when they needed them. 

Vice President Bush went to Honduras 2 weeks ago on his way back from 
Brazil wticr* h« attended the inaguration of the new <>reside 




the same kind of Issues. They're going co go with 
the winner. And yet they're hearing multiple voices out of this country. Not this 
administration, but this country. 

They're hearing the President saying that the<;e are Freedom Fiahcers. 



thdt they're our brothers and lo on 



mmm 



909 



. \- 



BNCUSSIFIED 

And they're hearing someone like Michael Ba 



03692Q 

rne» in the Congress Taking, 



now wait. We ""re not out to topple governments. 
I 
Ic boils down to that. 

The military aid, its surprising, boils down to back packs and boots. 
You'd think weapons would be the most important thing on the list. 

If you were about to set out anywhere from 3 to 9 months walking deep 
into territory, jungle, roads, mountains, rain, and so on, and you knew that vou 
were going to gone for a long time, you would want to have a good pair of shoes, 
wou Idn ' t you? 

Do they have much trouble with disease in that area? 

They do all right. 

We were going to rendevous with some reporters who were coming to look 
at the bases and son. 

I had CO travel with Calero and a ceupl* of chc members of the directorate 
of the FDN plus a Mosquito fighter who had been in training there and a few others. 

And we loaded up in the two vehicles. 

'•fhere were you? In Nicaragua. 

Yes, in the disputed territory in Nicaragua. 

And, by chc way, they concrol an enormous amounc of cerrlcory there. 
They are supreme cherc. You drive down che road and you're ouc of che base camp 
and you've been going on the road for a half an hour and you see these guys walking 
along the roa4, and they're Contra. And you wave to them. 

Thase guys look good. 

In any case, we're going up these mountain roads and I am just about 
fit to be tied. Because, in a jeep, 4 wheel drive, with about 6 people, even enough 
it's a mountain road, you feel chat you ought to be able to at least go pretcv well 
forward, right? 

Ue were going like this. 

Over the side, hesvy of a load and I was on the side .ind I w.n IroKin^ 




IJU 



910 



w 



v^^ 



down chart and U's abouc 




\l\ 



{••c scralghc down. 



__Thi$ was about 4,000 or 5,000 f«ec altitude. ^ ^ 3Q 

SungU. 

V 

T«mp«racur* . It's warm maybe 75-80 degrees. 

This is in good weather, this Is dry reason. But it rains a Utcle 
bit and the roads are pretty bad. 

In fact, some strategist think the best thing we could do for those 
people would be to get them a bulldozer so they could help maintain those roads. 

In any case, we were going like this, and I literally six inches from 
going over. Six inches. Somebody was with us. 

We stopped and I got out. And I looked at the tires on that Jeep. 
It was a Toyota. And they were literally bald. Nothing there. 

And that's what they're surving with. 

And I said, "why haven't you got tires?" 

And they said, "Because back packes and boots are more important than 
tires." 

Ue sent Nightline's crew there and they did a very positive story. 
We worked very hard with them to make sure we had Journalists were sympathetic. 
And I got this call from this producer when she can* back. 

1 said, "How was it?" 

She said, "It was fine. Except the part where we were going down the 
hill sideways." 

Th«y were In the same jeep that he was in. They hadn't changed the 
tires yet because they didn't have money to change them. 

There is an entire group right now of Nicarguan exiles who've been 
involved in the fighting themselves. One guy who's involved is setting up the anti- 
Pope demonstrations where they spit on the Pope and all that stuff. And we have 
these guys, in Washington, and in other areas, right now, sitting on their hand";. 

Because there hasn't been the money to pay for their airplane tickets and or^r. 
things ro get them out to the districts. 1 ikp Jim Wright's district, and have rwr... 
spc.ik up. 



iiMriK^;nrn 



911 



<J 



r 



Can you lm«gin« wh*c eh« rt*cclon would b« If th« pcopl* In Jim Urighc s 
district knew what th«y did to th« Pop* down th«r«? 

How about the Baptists th«y hand-grenaded? We have some of chose. 
We have son* -Evange 1 Icals who where hand-grenaded. 
Iftc'* show those on the tape. 
We have been waiting for literally months. We have these people sitting. 

waiting, ready to go. And they could have been going earlier, but a couple people 

got cold feet about spending money for then to go out and do these things. 

And It's a shaine. Because they could have had major impact on the 

debate. Particlarly back in the home districts of these rConare,ssmen aad Senators 

^ ^ J36931 

chat we're voting for. 

The beauty this time is that we are on the side of the insurgency which 
is the first time, except Afghanistan, but we can't get close enough to see it. 

But we are on the side of che insurgency. 

And if we can continue, as we've been working so hard to do, to turn 
the media around, they will scare to romanticise about these guys who are the Democrat: 
gueril las . 

We going to call ic the Shotgun Drive. And we're going to get .Remington 
to put up the amo. Dupont owns Remington. 

We're going to start on CBs. We're not even going to involve che eleczri: 
media until we get support or we have about 3 semis going north on Tobacco Road 
out of North Carolina full. 

And they keep calling on another semi. 

"W* got an empty semi out there? Somebody got an 18-wheeler empty 
can come on down and help liberate Central Anterica?" 

But the organization who was in charge of putting it together utilized 
a Sandanista office in Managua to put together che report. 

And we brought up this guy for a news conference and we had u lasc 
week and Time and Newsweek and AP and everybody reported on ic. You look at Time 
magazine. This week's Times you'll see a liccle thing about a PR firm. That's 



The point here is t '\ i s U.S. Congressman stood up with people. Ho .-jl 



UMASSiED 



912 



:j<:- 



UNOASSra 



b« chat natv«. Ha had to know who thata paopla wara. 

H« stood up with Cham. Ha had a naws confaranca with than. And ha 
sponsorad chair raport. Which was claarly bought and paid for by a eonnunisc govemnieni 
in Managua. 

Now chat will scara tha hill out of paopla. 

Tha guy chat did that Human Rights Study is a mcmbar of cha National 
Lawyers Cuild, which is a Communist front. '' u lJ3^Q70 

It's paid for by tha Soviat Union. Literally. 

I don'c see how anybody in thisa country could rationally be. a Communisc. 

There are rational Coranunists. 

The reality is that they profess views which are vary left. Socialists. 
And yet they're vary willing to accept a Communist governmanc. 

ron Oalluas was a perfecc example. Ha knew exaccly whac was going 
on in Grenada. Ic was fine wich him. 

The realicy is you have cha righc co be concerned and you have the 
ducy CO be suspicious. 

Because anybody you'd elect to that position and would even do it out 
of naivete, shouldn't be there. 

They shouldn't ba there. 

Calaro was so tired, ha couldn't even keep his eyes open when we were 
speaking with him on soom vary important issues. 

What I aaan to imply by describing him in that way is that this man 
is commic«4. H« doat not have co undergo whac ha is undergoing now. 

OiM, If ha did not baliava in it. Or two, if ha ware using whac resources 
he IS receiving for personal gain. 

He would not suffer that much. 

We're going to see co ic that man doesn't havet to coma up here and 
beg anymore co be able to fight for freedom. 

That's what we're going to do wuh you is 

Where is his tamily? In Hiaffltc 



# 



)^^. 



913 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



They're scarad In Miami, frankly 

-EvarytlOM h« call chara, wa gac a call from sonabody alsa said "why 
I 
did you call?" 

Ic'a a vary difficulty mancallcy. 

Well, Alfonsa Roballo, ona of cha 3 guys who mac with Raagan, waa hand 
granadad in San Joia In Novambar. Ha haard a craah. Ha waa driving a little Renault. 
He was with his fiance. He heard a crash. Ranaulc. Ha was with his fiance. He 
stopped the car. Put It in neutral. Opened the door and turned around like that 
and the grenade went off. 

And It blew out both his eardrums and peppered hln. Bloew out his 
fiance's back. C H J36933 

Talk about terrorism. 

They have had two attempts on Alfonsa Robello. Two attempts on Eden 
Pastore. Two ateampts on Anturo Cruz. And nobody has every tried to kill Daniel 
Ortega. 

Nobody has ever tried to kill Byardo Arsis. 

If you really want to know who has a policy of systematic violence, 
look to the Sandanistaa. 

Starllte scope . You can see at nltc. Good for hundreds of yards. 
Made In Alabama. 

This Is Nicaraguans for Nicaragua. Wa hava an indigenous, tiny force 
that grew uf ea its own accord, that matured of its own accord, and is only now. 

Tha real reason we're here is a matter of personal conviction. There 
isnothing In it for us personally. 

We are serving the larger and more mobile cause. That is the casue 
of freedom and democracy. Which we see threatened by the continuation of the Sandanisc 
regime in Nicaragua. 

It would be a shame if they won by default. If they won because thcv 
were willing to put in the money that gave them the cechnolofty co succeed whc rr> 

flVUI Itali^ 



914 

V vi UNClASSra 

whart ttfT nuobart and thaar political forca wouldn't. Thats what'* *o disturbing 

to iM about ~lc. 
» 

Vhat bothars ma It what happens afcar thay'va won. Look at all chase 

soldlart Chat hava to go back to baing peasant farmers. 

Look at what's happened in Guatemala. Look at what happened in El 
Salvador. 

The military held chat news conference in El Salvador and chey said, 
"We in tend to back this government and the results from this Aeccion." 

And that ended the argument. " ^ 3 6 9 3 4 

Because heretofore they'd been the final arbitrator and hare they were 
the preliminary arbitrator and they said, "This i» fine," and that's the end of 
the arguaanc. 

And Chay put daoMcracy on a sound footing in El Salvador. 

And the same guys that are fighting now for the FDN, that's what they 
fought for, they're the same people who fought against Soaoga! They were fighting 
for the same thing against Somoza that they're fighting for now. And it's democracy. 

For ma, the bottom line is, these are people who are willing to fighc 
for their freedom and for democracy. So that wa won't have to fight ourselves. 
LULAC 

People Ilka Hario Obledo from the LULAC based in Texas, an Hispanic 
organization. Saw hia on tv in Houston yesterday. Ha was going "Oh, no. we're 
higheenli^caaslons and I'm afraid that our boys are going to have to go down chere 
and fighc." 

Wall, they damn wall will fight unless we get behind the right side 
right now. 

There are more Hispanic Medal of Honor winners than any other national icy 
in the United States. 

They're ready to go. They're ready Co fight. 
AK$& sounds are a litde less chan $1 a round. 



»Nf!lii.<?.^inFn 



915 



^»<n. 



UNClASSra 



B«ew««ii now and M«y 1, ch« rad aya Mitalas could b« cha ant Ira kay. 

Bacauta if chay auccaad at chla point in launching an offanalva including 
tanka and eii%MI24 halicoptara into that ragion and go for cha cant... 

thara'a 2 diffaranc kind* of rad aya raitilai. Thara's ona that's vary 
untophisticatad which is Juat a diract shot missla. And than thara's ona that's 
abia to caka on tha Hind bacausa tha Hind has najor dacoy davlcas, has haavy aritianinenc 
and it has thcsa fflus on tha back of tha axhausts from tha Jats - tha axpulslon 
from tha angina - that naak tha haat . fj 

So you hava to hava tha $8,000 rad aya to maka it work. ^ 9 "^ r- 

Thay hava flara systaa on tha MI24s and thay drop tha flaras out. 

For ona thing, thara's a trada off. 

If you provida nonay for ammunition, tha oonay thay'va sat aaida for 
ammunition can go to boots. 

On tha othar hand, if you provida nonay for boots, what thay'va sat 
asida for boots can to anminition. 

Whatavar you do in ragard to that Use (of Calaro's naads), I think 
you can ba proud of what sarvica you provida for damocracy. I think ultitnataly 
you can ba proud to stand that day in Managua whan thara's a fraa country Inaguraced 
down thcra. 

I'd ancouraga you to partlcipata now whila you can still maka a difference 

That'll maka a lot of diffaranca to a lot of huys down thara. I'm 
sarious about that. 

W« havan't haard from you yat . 

Plaaaa raspond to tha Prcsidant's raquast for aid to tha Nicaraguan 
rafugaas . 

You tax-daductlbla chack of $330 or mora will ba a miracle gift. The 
Nicaraguan refugaas ara homalass, Impovarlshad and woundad flghtars for freedom. 

Once you gift arrives, your name will ba imnediacely added co che Preside' 
Honor Roll of Concerned Amarlcans. We arc presenting the Honor Roll co che Presidenc 
on the IJch of Hay. 



yNGLASSIflFO 



916 



t/>7' 






MUL 



UNCIASSIRED 



C H 



37561 








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under provisions of E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 




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Fund Raisers Meeting-May 23. 1986 

?S?"wJ a?^^ dr?ruse°that^''^*^ ^^'''^^"^ °^ ^>^« -te. 
forget this ?s not a l!ec5fQn^=.°"''.°^ "^^^ ^"^^ • Don't 
influence campaign YoS IrS ,^^?^^«"- '^*'^« ^* ^n 
to support thS pf2sldent'r?u"*fiS§i^2 Influence people 
element of this lnfin«nr^- < i funding needs and a kev 
the communis? pos2lf°is nit fund^iS'""" ''^ ^° ^^« threat 
have an opportunity to Lve a iS? of ?hir?^?- ^« "^^^ 
position. For Instance we are in ?L J^i^ ^"*° ^ election 

5Js?J?fts°"5he?e"th^rP.^Slik>-r ""^ "'--^ "°^ °' 
the vote. wSI? tSe po"J?on of°thr?n ^'^"^^ Percent of 
as the challenger. If the ?ncLh«ni- ?-"°"^®;}^ ^= ^s well 
the Challenger is strong on SDWnS\h! "'f^ °" S°I ^nd 
strong on SDI our 8atS?ft?Sn eL^tionf/^H^"« Population 
help Republican challenge So wh.n?^- ***' cannot but 
$30.0(80.00 and our ads fost $35 SSS aS'h' P"°Pl« «ive us 
country they are m mLrdJsJrlcJs iJ?e?^w'"°y"? "-^^ 

\l^^\l-l fnStiJrr nc%^ "^r^"'-"- -s?r'?c?s^^-^^ 
Because ^ a?e S